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Been chatting with Sisters players and the general consensus seems to be that a CC variant of the Seraphim with alternate weaponry would be a better idea than making the pistols matter in CC. Planning on pumping Celestians and Seraphim to I4 base, CC Seraphim loadout would be power weapon and option for Praesidium Protectiva (still a 4++ Storm Shield under my rules), probably between 20 and 25ppm fully geared.

Theory on Exorcists (No good pompous names for the missiles yet):
Standard Missiles: 48", S8, AP1, Heavy d6
Incendiary Missiles: 48", S4, AP5, Heavy d3, Large Blast, Barrage, Ignores Cover
Ground-to-air Missiles: 48", S7, AP3, Heavy d6, Skyfire (Before anyone complains the skyfire missiles are AP3 because the regular Exorcist missiles have better AP than shoulderfired krak missiles so I figure the skyfire missiles would be built similarly)

Thinking alternate loadouts would be available for purchase instead of just making the Exorcist a gun that fires three things to try and keep the price down.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Been chatting with Sisters players and the general consensus seems to be that a CC variant of the Seraphim with alternate weaponry would be a better idea than making the pistols matter in CC. Planning on pumping Celestians and Seraphim to I4 base, CC Seraphim loadout would be power weapon and option for Praesidium Protectiva (still a 4++ Storm Shield under my rules), probably between 20 and 25ppm fully geared.

I took a shot at something similar here, but I ended up worrying it overshadowed the Seraphim:

 SisterSydney wrote:
Instead of 2+, let's try a 45-point 35-point, 3+/3++, & power weapon build based on Seraphim.
Note that, as I've statted them up here, Principalities always have Shred -- which Seraphim have to roll an AOF for -- and Furious Charge -- which Celestians have to roll AOF for. They also have Celestian's 2 Attacks. They're sort of a souped-up Celestian-Seraphim hybrid that's armed and armoured like a Battle Conclave's Crusaders (not Terminators).
Conversely they lose "Hit & Run" because their task and training are to tar-pit. They lose "Angelic Visage" because the ability to re-roll your 6++ is redundant when you have a 3++ you're always going to use instead.


Principality Squad: 135 105 points
Principality: WS:4 BS:4 S:3 T:3 W:1 I:3 A:2 Ld:9 Sv:3+/3++
Superior: WS:4 BS:4 S:3 T:3 W:1 I:3 A:2 Ld:9 Sv:3+/3++

Force organization: Elite
Unit Type: Jump Infantry. Superior is Jump Infantry (character).
Unit Composition: 1 Principality Superior, 2 Principalities

Wargear:
Power Armour
Power weapon (lance or sword)
Bolt Pistol
Frag grenades
Krak grenades
Jump Pack
Storm Shield

Special Rules:
Act of Faith*
Furious Charge
Shield of Faith
Shred

*Act of Faith: Leap of Faith
One use only. This Act of Faith can be used in the Movement Phase. If the Principalities use this Act while Deep Striking, they may reroll the Scatter Dice. If the Principalities use this Act during normal movement, they may use their jump packs in both the Movement Phase and the Assault Phase this turn.

Options:
May include up to seven additional Principalities: +45 35 points per model

Any model may replace her bolt pistol with
- a hand flamer: 5 points
- an inferno pistol: 15 points

Any model may replace her power weapon and storm shield with an Eviscerator: +5 points

The Principality Superior may replace her bolt pistol with a plasma pistol: 15 points
The Principality Superior may take melta bombs: 5 points


Design notes:

Spoiler:

Start with a Seraphim: 15 points
Add +1 Attack (+10 per 3 models by Ovion's guidelines): +3.33
Add +1 Ld (+5 per 3 model, according to Ovion): 1.67
Replace Hit & Run with Furious Charge: +/-0
Replace Angelic Visage with Shred: +/-0
Replace 1 bolt pistol with power weapon (same as the option now given a Seraphim Superior): +15
Add Storm Shield (using C:SM cost for giving one to Elites): +10
NET = 45 points

And the Superior has the same stats as the regulars, as in a Celestian squad.

You could argue this is overcosted because a 3++ storm shield is not worth quite as much when you already have a 6++ save from Shield of Faith, but with a homebrew unit I'm going to err on the side of more points.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
PS: Or you could give them an Act of Faith granting FNP, Stubborn, or wound re-rolls to emphasize their toughness and tarpittery.

I recall this thread.

It's not going to overshadow the Seraphim due to the simple fact that it's a weapon swap on the Seraphim. That said normal Seraphim may end up getting extra tricks; near as I can tell in the current digital Codex their equipment amounts to a bolt pistol and an extra attack, they may get a pump to become a better shooting unit than an Assault Marine squad (fire both pistols, at the very least)

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Theory on Exorcists (No good pompous names for the missiles yet):
Standard Missiles: 48", S8, AP1, Heavy d6
Incendiary Missiles: 48", S4, AP5, Heavy d3, Large Blast, Barrage, Ignores Cover
Ground-to-air Missiles: 48", S7, AP3, Heavy d6, Skyfire (Before anyone complains the skyfire missiles are AP3 because the regular Exorcist missiles have better AP than shoulderfired krak missiles so I figure the skyfire missiles would be built similarly)

Thinking alternate loadouts would be available for purchase instead of just making the Exorcist a gun that fires three things to try and keep the price down.

I just homebrewed up my take on this -- complete with pompous names! -- along with a non-self-propelled version of the Exorcist: I'd welcome y'all for more focused discussion of this particular kind of nastiness at Queen of Battles: Artillery & Alternative Exorcist Ammo for the Adepta Sororitas.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I recall this thread.

It's not going to overshadow the Seraphim due to the simple fact that it's a weapon swap on the Seraphim. That said normal Seraphim may end up getting extra tricks; near as I can tell in the current digital Codex their equipment amounts to a bolt pistol and an extra attack, they may get a pump to become a better shooting unit than an Assault Marine squad (fire both pistols, at the very least)

You forgot the Gunslinger rule that lets all models with two pistols fire both every turn. Seraphim don't have a special rule for it any more because they made it a USR.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I recall this thread.

It's not going to overshadow the Seraphim due to the simple fact that it's a weapon swap on the Seraphim. That said normal Seraphim may end up getting extra tricks; near as I can tell in the current digital Codex their equipment amounts to a bolt pistol and an extra attack, they may get a pump to become a better shooting unit than an Assault Marine squad (fire both pistols, at the very least)

You forgot the Gunslinger rule that lets all models with two pistols fire both every turn. Seraphim don't have a special rule for it any more because they made it a USR.

Entirely possible; I don't have to deal with that rule on a regular basis. Looking at the Acts I've got set up I don't think two twin-linked shots would be inappropriate or redundant, however.

I've posted a 7th Edition update of my Vigils, Thrones, & Novices for folks looking for a wider variety of Sisters units: elites with Stealth and Infiltrate; bikes with Scout, Skilled Rider, and Hit & Run; and carapace-armored kids with a special rule called "Sacrificial Lambs"....

So I haven't forgotten about this thread, I've just been a touch busy. Now the following draft doesn't include the Exorcist, or the Shield of Faith special rules, or all of the special characters, but I figured it was a start and at a point where I could look at getting feedback for what is currently there. So here's the first round of updates, so please feel free to tear it apart!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And I just realized that I had the Immolator with a RA of 11. That's wrong. It should be 10.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And just for fun, I'm working on updating the rules I made for the "Deathwind Drop Pod":

Arabella Pattern Drop Pod
Profile....................................BS....Front....Side....Rear....HP
Arabella Pattern Drop Pod.....4........12........12.......12.......3
Unit Type: Vehicle (Open-Topped)
Points Cost: 80 points

Wargear:
5 Twin-linked Heavy Bolters

Special Rules:
Drop Pod Assault
Immobile
Inertial Guidance System
Servitor Crew

Drop Pod Assault: Drop Pods and units embarked upon them must be held in reserve and must enter play using the Deep Strike rules. At the beginning of your first turn, choose half of your Drop Pods (rounding up) to make a Drop Pod Assault. Units making a Drop Pod Assault arrive on their controlling player's first turn. The arrival of the remaining Drop Pods is rolled for as normal. A unit that Deep Strikes via Drop Pod cannot charge in the turn it arrives.

Immobile: A Drop Pod cannot move once it has entered play, and counts in all respects a vehicle that has suffered an Immobilised damage result that cannot be repaired in any way. Note that this does not cause it to lose a Hull Point.

Inertial Guidance System: Should a Drop Pod scatter on top of impassable terrain or another model (friend or foe) then reduce the scatter distance by the minimum required in order to avoid the obstacle. Note that if a Drop Pod scatters off the edge of the board, it suffers a Deep Strike Mishap as per the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook.

Servitor Crew: Deathwind Drop Pods ignore Shaken and Stunned effects, and are treated as if they were stationary during the movement phase on the turn they arrive. Additionally each weapon counts as an Hull-Mounted Automated Weapon that fires at BS 2 at the nearest enemy non-flyer model in it's line of sight, regardless of what the units fire at. If no other enemy models are in the weapon's range and line of sight the weapon may then fire at the nearest enemy flyer instead. These weapons may not overwatch.

Options:
May exchange all of its Twin-linked Heavy Bolters for:
Twin-linked Multi-meltas………………………………………….…50 pts
Avenger Mega Bolters……………………………………………....75 pts

May take Blessed Ammunition……………………………………………………..10 pts

So two things people who have seen the old one may be familiar with: first the name changed. I named it after Saint Arabella the Liberator, whose Order of the Sacred Rose are renowned for their unflappable Retributors. Besides, the Dominica Pattern was named after a saint so this felt right.

The other is that I repurposed the FW Autocannon version with this Avenger Mega Bolter version as it just felt right (plus without the TL they aren't as accurate as the cheaper options so it feels pretty fair for what it is too).

As before, I'm happy with your take on the existing army, I just want New Units! In that respect, the Living Saint is a beautiful monster, with a lovely army-boosting Act of Faith -- but she desperately needs some way around being Toughness 3, or else the enemy will just dump Strength 6 shots on her until something gets through the Rosarius and she Instantly Deaths....

Good to see the Confessor back, too, dirty old man that he is.

The new "Unstoppable" on the Pengine is... terrifying. And probably OP. No penetrating hits ever?

Some points of confusion:
Why's the Rhino up gunned to a TL storm bolter?
The Canoness and Palatine seem to have the same Act of Faith, only with a different name, and referring to "the Canoness" in both cases
You still refer to "Dedicated Transports" as a FOC category, which GW seems to be doing away with.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
PS: And I love the drop pod that lands and machineguns the heck out of everybody. That's just fun.

 SisterSydney wrote:
As before, I'm happy with your take on the existing army, I just want New Units! In that respect, the Living Saint is a beautiful monster, with a lovely army-boosting Act of Faith -- but she desperately needs some way around being Toughness 3, or else the enemy will just dump Strength 6 shots on her until something gets through the Rosarius and she Instantly Deaths....

True, but I'm wary of handing out any kind of EW.

 SisterSydney wrote:
Good to see the Confessor back, too, dirty old man that he is.

Yeah, he likes the nuns a little too much. The pervert.

 SisterSydney wrote:
The new "Unstoppable" on the Pengine is... terrifying. And probably OP. No penetrating hits ever?

On something that is AV11 and only has 3 HP? That's far less powerful that Logan's Chariot of Doom that can take up to 6 hits without worry and its AV12 all around, and fast, and has more attacks, ect, ect, ect. I can't imagine that it makes the game broken. It's kind of a compromise between making it an MC and keeping it a vehicle.

 SisterSydney wrote:
Some points of confusion:
Why's the Rhino up gunned to a TL storm bolter?

Brain fart. I'll fix it.

 SisterSydney wrote:
The Canoness and Palatine seem to have the same Act of Faith, only with a different name, and referring to "the Canoness" in both cases

Palatine's AoF is shorter range (6" not 12") and targets a single unit instead of all units, but yeah, I need to fix the references.

 SisterSydney wrote:
You still refer to "Dedicated Transports" as a FOC category, which GW seems to be doing away with.

Yeah, I'm still cleaning that up. I do have them in FA, I just need to change the "may take a Dedicated Transport" to a list of what they can purchase as dedicated transport.

The options on the Arabella seem like too much. There aren't any other units that can swap a twin-linked heavy bolter for a twin-linked multi-melta. The Immolator doesn't count since the option to take a Twin-linked Heavy Bolter is inherently weaker than the default Twin-linked Heavy Flamer. Add in that the Arabella now gets 5 weapons and it's a serious problem. The Avenger Megabolter as an option costs almost as much as the unit itself and adds a whole ton of firepower.

My Homebrew Deathwind Drop Pod for the Sisters is a lot more toned down and can only swap in 5 Multi-meltas. I priced it at 60 points and 30 points for the Mult-meltas.

The Penitent Engine doesn't need to be a 5th edition Dreadnought. It's a Suicide unit that just needs to get into Combat and wreck up the place, before going down quickly. It doesn't need to go against everything that makes it a walker.

 J3f wrote:
The options on the Arabella seem like too much. There aren't any other units that can swap a twin-linked heavy bolter for a twin-linked multi-melta. The Immolator doesn't count since the option to take a Twin-linked Heavy Bolter is inherently weaker than the default Twin-linked Heavy Flamer. Add in that the Arabella now gets 5 weapons and it's a serious problem. The Avenger Megabolter as an option costs almost as much as the unit itself and adds a whole ton of firepower.

The Arabella is based on a 2nd Ed Drop pod Sisters had access to, and Marines still get access to. And remember it's a BS2 model, so the TL only effectively makes it BS3 in terms of how powerful it's shooting is. The Avenger is about the only thing I'd argue could be overpowered, but when it doubles the cost of the model, each gun can only target what's in it's firing arch (meaning a max of two weapons can engage any one unit) and it's at a flat BS2 I don't think it really is overpowered.

 J3f wrote:
The Penitent Engine doesn't need to be a 5th edition Dreadnought. It's a Suicide unit that just needs to get into Combat and wreck up the place, before going down quickly. It doesn't need to go against everything that makes it a walker.

It's not a 5th ed walker as it's still AV11, not AV12 meaning it's a lot easier to strip those 3 HP off of it. The only difference to a standard walker is that it can't be Immobilized, shaken, stunned or spontaneously explode the first time it's sneezed at with the "All pens are glances" rule, making it a suicide unit that actually has a chance of making it into at least one combat.

You've stripped away the one thing that makes vehicles what they are while leaving their one strength. At 60 points they're cheap enough that they don't need to have super armour on top of Shield of Faith. Squadroning also helps mitigate their fragility.

What I did was give Penitent Engines front armour 12 and made them fast and very deadly once in close combat.

They should take some finesse to use not just a unit you deploy and charge at the nearest enemy.

 J3f wrote:
You've stripped away the one thing that makes vehicles what they are while leaving their one strength. At 60 points they're cheap enough that they don't need to have super armour on top of Shield of Faith. Squadroning also helps mitigate their fragility.

What I did was give Penitent Engines front armour 12 and made them fast and very deadly once in close combat.

They should take some finesse to use not just a unit you deploy and charge at the nearest enemy.

I can't see AV12 on a model that has a person hanging out in front like that. Actually you make a good point, that really should be AV10.

It's a rules caveat. If you had a Land Raider that was built like a Convertible and could put the top down so you could feel the breeze, it would still be AV14 it would just be open-topped.

 J3f wrote:
It's a rules caveat. If you had a Land Raider that was built like a Convertible and could put the top down so you could feel the breeze, it would still be AV14 it would just be open-topped.

Eh....I'm going to disagree. And call it there on that matter before we turn this into a massive arguement.

Re: the Penitent Engine and giving it some survivability long enough to get into close combat... What about giving it an Act of Faith, which imbues it with an Invul save (5+) until the start of its next Movement phase?

mr. peasant wrote:
Re: the Penitent Engine and giving it some survivability long enough to get into close combat... What about giving it an Act of Faith, which imbues it with an Invul save (5+) until the start of its next Movement phase?

The Acts of Faith system I'm using requires Leadership tests would be the big one.

Which could be easily resolved by stating in the Engine's AoF that its roll would be resolved at Ld 8, or whatever number was felt necessary.

Vehicles that perform Acts of Faith would be pretty awesome, actually.

 SisterSydney wrote:
Vehicles that perform Acts of Faith would be pretty awesome, actually.

And potentially seen as total cheese mongering. I mean if Grey Knights can't have psychic vehicles, why should we get vehicles with AoF?

I'm saying it's an awesome idea, not necessarily that it's a good idea. Seeing as how (good) psychic powers are much nastier than (good) Acts of Faith, it wouldn't be as cheesy as psychic vehicles, though.

 SisterSydney wrote:
I'm saying it's an awesome idea, not necessarily that it's a good idea. Seeing as how (good) psychic powers are much nastier than (good) Acts of Faith, it wouldn't be as cheesy as psychic vehicles, though.

Actually when you think about it, Shield of Faith (as well as Acts of Faith) on Penitent Engines doesn't really make sense. According to the fluff those are criminals who have done something so heinous that even making them into an Arco-flagellant wasn't enough. They don't sound like the faithful to me.

So what I'm considering is dropping them to AV10 all around, and dropping Shield of Faith. That makes them more vulnerable and great Distraction Carnifexes if need be. It's not like they can't get cover behind Rhinos and the like after all.

Aof and SoF makes sense with the female "pilot" version of PE, who is probably a Repentia.

shinr wrote:
Aof and SoF makes sense with the female "pilot" version of PE, who is probably a Repentia.

Nope. Can't be a Repentia, as that's something done willingly as an act of penance and has a chance of redemption. The Penitent Engine is a straight up punishment for the extra-guilty and there are no options there. It's reserved for the most heinous of crimes. Likely cult leaders and those found consorting with xenos are the ones put on the engine. If a Sister was up there, she's already broken her faith by defying the Imperial Creed in some very over the top way and doesn't deserve those bonuses either.

You could fluff Shield of Faith as their sheer overpowering conviction (presumably brainwashed into them) that they need to get to the target and rip it apart.... Exactly how Shield of Faith works is a big question mark.

That said, I didn't give Shield of Faith to any of my homebrew Frateris & Ministorum units, and arguably the Penitent Engine is another such non-Sororitas auxiliary unit.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

shinr wrote:
Aof and SoF makes sense with the female "pilot" version of PE, who is probably a Repentia.

Nope. Can't be a Repentia, as that's something done willingly as an act of penance and has a chance of redemption. The Penitent Engine is a straight up punishment for the extra-guilty and there are no options there. It's reserved for the most heinous of crimes. Likely cult leaders and those found consorting with xenos are the ones put on the engine. If a Sister was up there, she's already broken her faith by defying the Imperial Creed in some very over the top way and doesn't deserve those bonuses either.

The Penitent Engine having Shield of Faith is Tradition. A lot of people would be disappointed by it losing SoF.

By that logic, Sisters losing their bonuses by being found guilty of defying the Imperial Creed, Repentia would also lose Shield of Faith and Acts of Faith.

"Tradition" dating back to a 5th edition WD update. So a tradition of about 3 years now. Yeah, we can can it.

Repentia don't "defy the Imperial Creed", they're Sisters who have screwed up and seek the Emperor's forgiveness. It could be something like breaking in battle, or allowing harm to come to an important Relic or realizing she had a moment where she questioned her faith.

Or forgetting to brush her teeth, the way some of the more zealous orders seem to handle it...

 SisterSydney wrote:
Or forgetting to brush her teeth, the way some of the more zealous orders seem to handle it...

It's voluntary (last I knew), so it's more that someone points out that she has a bit of cabbage in her teeth so she bounces off to join the Repentia to resolve her shame (there is one Order where the Repentia are kind of a big deal and they will use almost any excuse to join them. They kind of have a serious "we must repent for EVERYTHING" complex. If 40k was a dating sim they'd be that girl who likes being tied up I guess).