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 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

Also considering allowing two models in a regular Battle Sisters squad to take two heavy, two special, or one of each instead of a special or a special and a heavy. Any remarks?

Well I tend to take only Melta guns or Flamers so I would like it

Is there any fluffy reason the Sisters would use larger squads especially given they tend to operate using 10 person vehicles??

Any fluffy reason why they wouldn't?


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Also BSS have been able to take up to 20 models as far back as at least C:WH, so I'd say it's fluffy.

Well my point was they operate with rhinos and their variants as standard so seem to be based around 5-10 woman squads? I just wondered if there was anything said anywhere about larger squads being part of their specific fighting style?

It look more impressive when you march on the enemy? Maybe it's the result of a Superior covering down on a squad who doesn't currently have a leader, or when they have a lot of new Sisters who need to be trained.

 Mr Morden wrote:

Also considering allowing two models in a regular Battle Sisters squad to take two heavy, two special, or one of each instead of a special or a special and a heavy. Any remarks?

Well I tend to take only Melta guns or Flamers so I would like it

Is there any fluffy reason the Sisters would use larger squads especially given they tend to operate using 10 person vehicles??

Rules-wise it's a grandfather-clause thing more than anything else; they've been 5-20 or 10-20 in every book, so we're rolling with it.

Lore-wise I'd think it's because they're a step in between the Space Marines (5-10 man squads) and the Imperial Guard (25-100 man platoons) on the general spectrum of tactical flexibility, they're not elite rapid-response forces like the Space Marines or Veteran Guard armies, but at the same time they're not large unwieldy garrison forces with immense quantities of bodies to draw on. They're a militarily-independent force that garrisons their own outposts all over the place so they tend to have more bodies on hand than Space Marines who sit on their asses until they need to make a dramatic entrance do, but they're more elite and expensive to equip than the Guard. (To anyone who's about to jump down my throat on this one the Sisters can and do field elite rapid-response forces, but it's not the core purpose of their army in the same way it is for Marines, Elysians, Eldar, and the like)

That said I do want to push for larger-capacity transport vehicles to accommodate fifteen or twenty-model Sisters units; it's a prime mover behind wanting Sororitas Land Raiders and basing the Erelim (the name comes from MrSako's Sororitas Stormraven but I'm appropriating it) off of the Storm Eagle in addition to working out a Rhino Advancer. Really large units (twenty-model Guardian, Kabalite Warrior, Chaos Marine, etc.) units don't see play in Codexes that don't have the transports for them because a unit with a transport is tougher, faster, and overall more valuable as a unit than either the unit or the transport would be alone; twenty-model 30k squads do see play because the transport platforms are available there. (This is be a gross oversimplification, there are other factors that include the fact that a twenty-man Tactical Squad in 30k is fifty points cheaper than two ten-man Tactical Squads, but I'm focusing on the issues that are easier for me to address when writing a 7e Sisters book)

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 SisterSydney wrote:
We need to distinguish between "generic Living Saint" and "Saint Celestine with the serial number filed off" (which seems to be what Soulstorm did, not that I've played it). Wasn't Sebastian Thor also considered a Living Saint? There are plenty of possibilities beyond "flying beatstick." Leadership and Faith boosts would be very characterful, for example.

I had a concept of a Generic Living Saint that was basically like a Pheonix Lord. Standard Statline and wargear base and you then got to essentially go nuts and customize them into the (expensive) brick of your dreams.

Honestly, consider I'm pretty sure that Celestine is going to end up parked in the LoW section (unless Sisters get something REALLY freaking awesome in their next eventual codex update (anyone else feeling a lot like Nids at this point: updates every edition (since 5th) and they don't fix things but kind of feel like they're making them worse? Or is it just me?), I think filing her serial number off might be a bit much. That is unless we swing it the other way and file her serial numbers off, but she's the only Living Saint with their own Act of Faith which would be enough to justify her LoW status (especially if she finally gets EW. Who wants an unkillable Flying Nun?).

^THIS.

I worry that; No new figs, Only a digital codex, and the overall GW money making mindset of 'big sellers get the models' I get worried that we get the back burner sometimes. But that may not be true, it could just be my perception of the release schedule.


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 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

Also considering allowing two models in a regular Battle Sisters squad to take two heavy, two special, or one of each instead of a special or a special and a heavy. Any remarks?

Well I tend to take only Melta guns or Flamers so I would like it

Is there any fluffy reason the Sisters would use larger squads especially given they tend to operate using 10 person vehicles??

Rules-wise it's a grandfather-clause thing more than anything else; they've been 5-20 or 10-20 in every book, so we're rolling with it.

Lore-wise I'd think it's because they're a step in between the Space Marines (5-10 man squads) and the Imperial Guard (25-100 man platoons) on the general spectrum of tactical flexibility, they're not elite rapid-response forces like the Space Marines or Veteran Guard armies, but at the same time they're not large unwieldy garrison forces with immense quantities of bodies to draw on. They're a militarily-independent force that garrisons their own outposts all over the place so they tend to have more bodies on hand than Space Marines who sit on their asses until they need to make a dramatic entrance do, but they're more elite and expensive to equip than the Guard. (To anyone who's about to jump down my throat on this one the Sisters can and do field elite rapid-response forces, but it's not the core purpose of their army in the same way it is for Marines, Elysians, Eldar, and the like)

That said I do want to push for larger-capacity transport vehicles to accommodate fifteen or twenty-model Sisters units; it's a prime mover behind wanting Sororitas Land Raiders and basing the Erelim (the name comes from MrSako's Sororitas Stormraven but I'm appropriating it) off of the Storm Eagle in addition to working out a Rhino Advancer. Really large units (twenty-model Guardian, Kabalite Warrior, Chaos Marine, etc.) units don't see play in Codexes that don't have the transports for them because a unit with a transport is tougher, faster, and overall more valuable as a unit than either the unit or the transport would be alone; twenty-model 30k squads do see play because the transport platforms are available there. (This is be a gross oversimplification, there are other factors that include the fact that a twenty-man Tactical Squad in 30k is fifty points cheaper than two ten-man Tactical Squads, but I'm focusing on the issues that are easier for me to address when writing a 7e Sisters book)

Man I really LOVE this.

@Josey4u: I had a couple ideas I pitched in there, which ideas specifically were you supportive of there?

All of it. I really think for whatever reason, GW really left out a chance to add some flavor into the SoB.

There is a lot of places they could go, and honestly, the ideas all posted over the last 4 pages have been leaps and bounds ahead of of what we have now. I am not complaining about what he have. The AoF are something cool that are definitely us.

Vehicles, and units I think fall short. The addition of/or hybrid of marine vehicles makes sense to me. I like the storm raven idea. I'm guessing here, but what is it, 20 years since a model update?

I'm very thankful for threads like this. It means we aren't alone in keeping this army from going the way of the chaos dwarves of WHFB

Ten years, we got a few new kits with the Witch Hunter book. Sisters have only been around for 16 years

In their original release, Sisters were squads of 5, and could then add a special weapon (extra model) and/or a heavy weapon (another extra model), giving a squad size of 5-7.

Then the 3e rulebook came out and jumped it to 10-20 squads, presumably to differentiate them from Space Marines (who at that point, had nothing like chapter tactics or anything and barely had ATSKNF).

My presumption is that, whenever I see a footslogging 20-Sister squad, there are two Rhinos parked safely offboard, and it's actually two squads that combined. Presumably they usually pair up their most experienced squad leader with their most inexperienced (or most dead), hence there's only one Superior in game-mechanical terms.

Also Summer Glau as River Tam is totally a Repentia, not a DCA, because she doesn't wear shoes.

So a thought: instead of having Holy Promethium re-roll wounds/armor pen rolls of a 1, I'm thinking that it gives the Soul Blaze special rule. Any complaints with this idea?


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 Furyou Miko wrote:
Ten years, we got a few new kits with the Witch Hunter book. Sisters have only been around for 16 years

In their original release, Sisters were squads of 5, and could then add a special weapon (extra model) and/or a heavy weapon (another extra model), giving a squad size of 5-7.

Then the 3e rulebook came out and jumped it to 10-20 squads, presumably to differentiate them from Space Marines (who at that point, had nothing like chapter tactics or anything and barely had ATSKNF).

We also lost that delicious T4 then too. D:


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So to put Kyrinov, Praxedus and Helen back in the army I'm cutting out the Sceptre of Vengeance and the Mace of Valaan. Now I plan to add "Bane of Heretics" (a combi-Flamer relic that gets a bonus against any models in a CSM or Traitor Guard army), but I'm drawing a blank on what else to slip in there. We've got a sword, a book, litanies, a cloak and a mantle as well but we're short something.

Any thoughts?

 SisterSydney wrote:
My presumption is that, whenever I see a footslogging 20-Sister squad, there are two Rhinos parked safely offboard, and it's actually two squads that combined. Presumably they usually pair up their most experienced squad leader with their most inexperienced (or most dead), hence there's only one Superior in game-mechanical terms.

Also Summer Glau as River Tam is totally a Repentia, not a DCA, because she doesn't wear shoes.

Hard to argue she's got an Unwieldy broadsword as opposed to two weapons, I6, and Uncanny Reflexes is all I'm saying.


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Zion, my complaint is that Soul Blaze is a bad rule and shouldn't exist. I'd go +1S to flame weapons seeing as that doesn't take anything into silly territory (if we do put Relic Predators with Flamestorm Cannons in they might just not get the option)

I was considering Soul Blaze over re-rolls just because lighting gak on fire is something Sisters should be good at.


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Plus +1S was the trick of Psyflame ammo and I don't know if it really fits an upgrade that basically is "promethium that's been prayed over".

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 SisterSydney wrote:
My presumption is that, whenever I see a footslogging 20-Sister squad, there are two Rhinos parked safely offboard, and it's actually two squads that combined. Presumably they usually pair up their most experienced squad leader with their most inexperienced (or most dead), hence there's only one Superior in game-mechanical terms.

Also Summer Glau as River Tam is totally a Repentia, not a DCA, because she doesn't wear shoes.

Hard to argue she's got an Unwieldy broadsword as opposed to two weapons, I6, and Uncanny Reflexes is all I'm saying.


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Zion, my complaint is that Soul Blaze is a bad rule and shouldn't exist. I'd go +1S to flame weapons seeing as that doesn't take anything into silly territory (if we do put Relic Predators with Flamestorm Cannons in they might just not get the option)

^THIS

I had a thought, maybe nicking the 30k deflagrate rule and make it so unsaved wounds from Holy Promethium generate new wounds (the new wounds don't generate a 3rd set of wounds though).


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I mean deflagrate does mean "to burn rapidly with intense heat and sparks being given off ".

Can we do SOMETHING with an inferno pistol?

 Josey4u wrote:
Can we do SOMETHING with an inferno pistol?

Like what? It's a melta pistol. I don't know how it could really become better because if we up the range then we need to up the cost to compete with the meltagun (especially since it gives an extra attack when paired with a CCW).

Oh, thinking about the Blade of Admonition, I'm looking at upping it's cost to 30 and giving it Killing Blow to fit the fluff that it may have been Dominica's sword (since she beheaded him in a single stroke).

I'm giving thought to giving Seraphim melee attacks with different sorts of pistols, but they'd be the only folks besides Cypher to gain melee benefit from a plasma pistol. Any remarks?

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I'm giving thought to giving Seraphim melee attacks with different sorts of pistols, but they'd be the only folks besides Cypher to gain melee benefit from a plasma pistol. Any remarks?

Believe me I've been there too, but I never really could get it to feel like it was fairly balanced or anything so I gave up on it.

Any complaints about Holy Promethium having Deflagerate as a rule? It'd make Sisters better at anti-horde, something they are REALLY bad at currently.


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So here's that Relic Combi-Flamer I was talking about earlier:

Heretic’s Bane: The Heretic’s Bane is a special Bolter with a built in Flamer renowned for purifying countless heretics. It can be fired using either of the following profiles each turn:
Range....Strength....AP....Type
24”...........5.................4......Rapid Fire, Heretic’s Bane
..-..............5.................4.....Template, Heretic’s Bane
Heretic’s Bane: Against models in a Traitor Guard or Chaos Space Marine army (to include “count-as” forces using other books but are themed to be followers of Chaos. If you are unsure if this applies talk to your opponent before hand) the strength and AP of the weapon is improved by 1 and it gains the Shred and Rending special rules.

I know it is VERY situational, which is why I made it so the Flamer isn't a one shot, just so it has utility outside of being used against CSM/Traitor Guard armies. It also runs 25 points. If it looks under cost I can go up.

So in other news as I'm working, I've moved the Palatine to being a single 25pts HQ using the same statline I already had for her, but with the same options as the Canoness (but limited to a single Relic as before). "Pride of the Order" is now her Act of Faith which is a softer version of the one I gave the Canoness which can only affect a single eligible unit in 6" instead of all eligible units in 12".

I'd specify "any models in an army including detachments from Codex: Chaos Space Marines or Codex: Chaos Daemons", even with traitors there's a degree of far-gone that's unacceptable and a degree to which redemption is still possible.

I don't know that 25pts is a fair cost; for 30pts CSM can get a 4/3 12" Torrent flamer, which seems vastly better on all fronts. Maybe 20pts?


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 ClockworkZion wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I'm giving thought to giving Seraphim melee attacks with different sorts of pistols, but they'd be the only folks besides Cypher to gain melee benefit from a plasma pistol. Any remarks?

Believe me I've been there too, but I never really could get it to feel like it was fairly balanced or anything so I gave up on it.

Any complaints about Holy Promethium having Deflagerate as a rule? It'd make Sisters better at anti-horde, something they are REALLY bad at currently.

I feel like anti-horde isn't where Sisters struggle given the quantity of flamers they can bring to the table, honestly. Straight-up lifting Deflagrate would look weird lore-wise, but I'm not sure about a good replacement.

As to the pistols two hand flamers would probably be +2A instead of +1 for two close combat weapons, two inferno pistols could count as meltabombs, and two plasma pistols could be half Attacks at AP2 with Gets Hot in melee, nothing too excessive.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I'd specify "any models in an army including detachments from Codex: Chaos Space Marines or Codex: Chaos Daemons", even with traitors there's a degree of far-gone that's unacceptable and a degree to which redemption is still possible.

That might work I think.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I don't know that 25pts is a fair cost; for 30pts CSM can get a 4/3 12" Torrent flamer, which seems vastly better on all fronts. Maybe 20pts?

Very true. 20 would probably be more fair for sure.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Any complaints about Holy Promethium having Deflagerate as a rule? It'd make Sisters better at anti-horde, something they are REALLY bad at currently.

I feel like anti-horde isn't where Sisters struggle given the quantity of flamers they can bring to the table, honestly. Straight-up lifting Deflagrate would look weird lore-wise, but I'm not sure about a good replacement.

Speaking from experience, against horde armies Sisters suffer. Even having nothing but templates just doesn't help the army thin their ranks enough to make it work. Maybe it's just our lack of large blast, but being able to deal extra wounds (especially when being charged) would help.

And considering what Deflagrate actually means I really kind of think it fits. I mean we could just call the rule "Immolate" and have it do the same thing. I don't know, I was just looking at some alternatives to just re-rolls.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
As to the pistols two hand flamers would probably be +2A instead of +1 for two close combat weapons, two inferno pistols could count as meltabombs, and two plasma pistols could be half Attacks at AP2 with Gets Hot in melee, nothing too excessive.

Like I've said, it's hard to balance, and when you add a close combat bonus you have to rework points and then that gets pretty messy honestly.

Anyways, here's were I stand on the generic Saint so far :

SAINT
Profile...WS...BS...S...T...W...I...A...Ld...Sv
Saint.......6......6.....3...3....3...6...3...10...3+
Unit Type: Infantry (Character)
Unit Composition: 1 Living Saint
Points Cost: 75 Points
Wargear:......................Special Rules:
Power Armor ...............Act of Faith
Bolt Pistol ....................Faithful
Chainsword.................Independent Character
Frag Grenade..............Martyrdom
Krak Grenades...........Shield of Faith
Rosarius......................Stubborn

Act of Faith
The Emperor’s Spirit: The Saint radiates the Emperor’s very presence, driving those around her to fight with all of their might.

If used during the Movement Phase all units with the Acts of Faith or War Hymns in 12” may move up to an additional d3” (roll for each unit)

If used during the Shooting Phase all units with the Acts of Faith or War Hymns in 12” may shoot twice (each must shoot at the same unit they’ve shot before, if that unit is destroyed they may not fired again. Each unit that chooses that to fire a second time may not fire Overwatch until the end of the next their Shooting Phase.

If used during the Assault Phase all units with the Acts of Faith or War Hymns special rule gain the gain an extra attacks and re-roll all failed to hit and to wound rolls.

Options:
May replace bolt pistol with boltgun…………………………………….……..free
May take Blessed Ammunition………………………….………..………......5 pts
May take with Holy Promethium…………………………….………………..5 pts
May take melta bombs………………………………….…………………....5 pts
May replace her Power Armor with Blessed Armor…………...…………..15 pts
A Saint may take items from the Melee Weapons, Ranged Weapons, Special Equipment and Ecclesiarchy Relics lists.

Not super exciting I guess, but I think for a 75pt base HQ (before any options, to include a 2+ save) she isn't bad. I decided to not go with the "Living Saint" moniker since that's firmly Celestine's name at this point, but Sisters do have a lot of Saints and it gives me something to build off of for our two named Saint HQs that need to be added back in. Anyone have any complaints about her? I mean I've got a Canoness at 50 (I also bumper her I to 5) and she's got has +1 WS/BS/I over the Canoness, and her AoF is pretty strong (I'm not sold on the name though and am open to suggestions).

Close to where I was, honestly. Lorewise "Living Saint" is merely someone declared a Saint while still alive, Alicia Dominica and her five companions that founded the original Orders Militant were all Living Saints as well.

I had a menu of abilities for my generic Living Saint sort of like how the C'tan Shards are supposed to have special tricks that you mix and match to make your own:

Aura of Purity: Friendly units within 6" are Fearless
Blessed Renewal: Celestine's resurrection power (If you're worried about me taking away Celestine's unique trick she gets to keep trying to resurrect if she fails, other Living Saints with the power get the one chance and stay gone if they fail)
Divine Fire: Units attempting to assault the Living Saint or a unit she has joined do so as if through Dangerous Terrain
Fires of Wrath: She and her unit reroll to hit with flame weapons, melta weapons, and weapons with Blessed Bolts
The Light of Faith: She and units within 12" of her get +1 when rolling to generate Faith Points.
Speed is Life: She and her unit get Hit and Run

Not sure if those are going anywhere or if they'd be useful but it's a direction to go.


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As to versus horde armies the Relic Predator and the Erelim should both help with that in my setup; the +1S on flame weapons from Holy Promethium is actually not that far off Deflagrate if you look at the odds (expected value of a hit on a Space Marine with a flamer: 0.165 normally, 0.192 with Deflagrate, 0.221 with S5; expected value of a hit on a Guardsman with a flamer: 0.67 normally, 1.11 with Deflagrate, 0.83 with +1S).

Reworking points isn't that scary. I treat them as the CCW and as the ranged weapon and sum them up. The twin-linked plasma pistol shooting with the melee attack might actually be worth 15pts.

I've considered that kind of thing before (hell if I know where my old notes are from the previous codex though) but I just dind't have a lot of ideas that felt really well balanced. Even if you put really high points costs on some of them there always seems to be one or two powers people always want and others they never want, just because they are just that useful.

That's why I went with the AoF method I did where she has a lot of strong utility with the army, and she really buffs it well, but on top of it by not including powers like that I keep her cheaper (I mean Celestine is 135 and I'm only bumping her to 150 when I give her EW and letting her come back as many times as she passes her test, and make her a LoW, by the time you dropped the points to make a watered down version of her who can only come back once, you might as well just take Celestine instead).


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RE: Deflagerate, I wasn't trying to buff it against Marines though, so it being a better option than a higher strength versus Guard and the like is actually more what I was looking at: making it something that works better against chaff troops (Gaunts, Guard, Ork Boyz) and not the elite troops (that's why we have Melta after all).


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And don't forget that the TL Plasma Pistol you're talking about is on a model who can gain Shred.

Diminishing returns. Shred on a bolt pistol vs. T4 is +50% to wound, Shred on a plasma pistol vs. T5 or less is +14% to wound.


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It's way more powerful in the bolt pistols and hand flamers than the plasma pistol.

Ideas for Relics:

Potentially bring back the Flail, the Staff and the Axe, and other relics from the 2e book?

Katherine's Praesidium (Praesidium Protectiva +1 of some kind - maybe makes nearby units Faithful, or Fearless or some such?)

My take on the old Relics;

Tears of the Emperor.
There are many stories of statues of the Emperor and other icons of the faith weeping blood-like tears. These tears are collected in ornate crystal bottles, and they are a potent weapon against the forces of Chaos.
The phial can be thrown just like a grenade and uses a 2" blast marker. Any daemon affected takes a wound on a d6 roll of 4+ and receives no invulnerable save from its Daemon rule.

Phial of Dolan
Anyone who drinks the contents of one of these crystal bottles is filled with the strength and determination of Dolan, the Great Confessor.
The character may drink the contents of the phial at the start of any turn. For the rest of the player's turn, the character is counted as being under the effects of the Iron Arm biomancy power. One use only.

Axe of Retribution
The Axe of Retribution is styled upon the famous Axe of Chalcydon borne by Saint Jason of Huale. Its massive double-bladed head is studded with jewels which rend the flesh of those it strikes. The Axe may be used in close combat with the following profile:

Close Combat. S User +2, AP 5, Melee, Armourbane, Shred

Staff of Belief
Carved of wood taken from the massive trees lining the Garden of Saints, the Staff of Belief is a potent symbol of faith and devotion.

The Staff is a Close-Combat weapon with the following profile:

Close Combat Strength user +3 AP - Melee, Two-handed, Parry, Daemonbane

Parry: The wielder recieves a +1 bonus to their Invulnerable Save in close combat (to a maximum of 3+)

Daemonbane: Invulnerable Saves from the Daemon special rule may not be taken against wounds from this weapon.

Flail of Chastisement
The Flail of Chastisement is barbed with small hooks which grip the target's flesh and constrict it as it struggles.

Close Combat | Strength User +2 | AP5 | Melee, Tangle

Tangle: A model wounded but not killed (including saved wounds) by the Flail reduces the number of attacks they may make in their next Fight sub-phase by D3 (to a minimum of 1)

Wow, a lot's happened since I've been gone.

These are just my thoughts as I go through this thread.

First off Land Raiders are Space Marines only. Inquisitor's can get away with taking a few, but that's because they do what they want. Sisters or the Ecclesiarchy couldn't get away with stockpiling Land Raiders. If you want to see how people react to Sisters of Battle getting Land Raiders check my original thread on the B&C: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286511-homebrew-codex-sisters-of-battle-6th-edition/

Instead I created the Crucifier the Sisters of Battle's exclusive heavy armour assault vehicle.

The reference to Tech-Sisters comes from Imperial Armour Volume 2 Second Edition. I also statted them in my own codex. There was some discussion in my original Thread on them: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/582990.page#6598123/

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Let's go with that, then.

In the process of revising my rules for 7e; sticking to J3f's core ideas on Acts, but I feel like eleven Acts is too many with the potential redundancy. Major points I'm differing from prior attempts discussed on this page are Militia Warbands as Troops (what would the 41st millennium be without religious fanatics usable as expendable cannon fodder?) and the Erelim (as discussed in an earlier thread about a dedicated Sororitas Flyer, I know SisterSydney disagreed with me on basing it on the Storm Eagle but a shock transport loaded down with flame-themed weaponry using multi-meltas to dogfight in a pinch seems very in-character for the Sisters).

Ophanim are probably going (not a lot of basis in fluff, don't remember where I got the idea but I think it was someone else's homebrew Codex) but I'm leaving the CC Seraphim variant in on the grounds that I've grown attached to the mental image. May draw on other folks' Special Characters, and my build-your-own-Living-Saint setup is staying in.


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Also a Sororitas tank based on the Relic Predator running with the torrent Flamestorm Cannon or the melta cannon as turret guns. No way an idea that fitting and pre-priced for me is staying out.


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Also got convinced by a friend to un-delete Dominions. Going to try and give them their own niche as the preferred Drop Pod unit.

It's really more like 10 Acts of Faith since Duty unto Death is Oblatia only, and my Acts of Faiths are somewhat more unreliable than GW's IG Orders by a different name so redundancy is a good thing. Also most of the Acts of Faith are only useful in 1 phase so having a lot of them means the Sisters are covered in more than 1 phase. Each Test of Faith also either favors large squads or small squads so reallistically a unit will only have access to half of the Acts of Faith at any time.

I specifically didn't make Militia Warbands (Zealots in My Codex) Troops becuase they would overshadow Battle sisters like Cultists overhadow Chaos Space Marines. It's also too obvious a violation of the Decree Passive.

I gave the Sisters their own unique Fliers not shameless ripped from the Space Marines. The Aquila Dropship, Alto Superiority Fighter, and Divinity Assault Craft.

Instead of giving the Sisters the Relic Predator I made Crucifer patterns with an Inferno Cannon and Melta Cannon or Magna-Melta. Also I couldn't see a Torrent Flamestorm Cannon Mounted on a Rhino Chasis. Just look at the Hellhound.

 Mr Morden wrote:
I get the impression they are rabble rousers, terrorist leaders and where neccesary assassins.

Now I am thinking Alex and Nikita from the recent Nikita series - well its a nice place to go

They may well be there to guide in Strike teams from the Miltiant Orders when a new planet is being brought into the Imperium although they may be a bit strange to the other Sisters?

Another interesting possible inclusion:

The Orders Pronatus specialise in retrieving, guarding, studying and repairing artefacts of value to the Ecclesiarchy. This includes the uncounted thousands of holy relics revered by the peoples of the Imperium, but it also relates to items captured by the forces of the Imperium that are considered too powerful or significant to be allowed to fall into enemy hands. They have the responsibility of maintaining and blessing the many banners and symbols of the Orders Militant and often re-consecrate the livery of other Imperial bodies. On occasion, members of the Orders Pronatus have given all in the defence of artefacts they were charged with guarding or studying. The fate of the Order of Blessed Enquiry is a salutary lesson in the risks inherent in hoarding an object imbued with the evil of the Ruinous Powers, even if the intent is to safeguard Humanity from their corrupting influence.

Check my Codex, I made Order Pronatus Scout Sisters, but they're an elite Troops choice instead of a cut-down Battle Sister.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I feel like that mechanic might be best set up as the Sisters' Warlord Traits table instead of a separate thing, if the bonuses are minor, to preserve simplicity.


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My next concern is on how to work Martyrdom back into the rules; anyone have any suggestions?

I made Martyrdom just make Units continue to generate Faith Points for 1 extra turn after Death. It softens the blow and gives you the opportunity to turn the tables.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 SisterSydney wrote:
We need to distinguish between "generic Living Saint" and "Saint Celestine with the serial number filed off" (which seems to be what Soulstorm did, not that I've played it). Wasn't Sebastian Thor also considered a Living Saint? There are plenty of possibilities beyond "flying beatstick." Leadership and Faith boosts would be very characterful, for example.

I had a concept of a Generic Living Saint that was basically like a Pheonix Lord. Standard Statline and wargear base and you then got to essentially go nuts and customize them into the (expensive) brick of your dreams.

Honestly, consider I'm pretty sure that Celestine is going to end up parked in the LoW section (unless Sisters get something REALLY freaking awesome in their next eventual codex update (anyone else feeling a lot like Nids at this point: updates every edition (since 5th) and they don't fix things but kind of feel like they're making them worse? Or is it just me?), I think filing her serial number off might be a bit much. That is unless we swing it the other way and file her serial numbers off, but she's the only Living Saint with their own Act of Faith which would be enough to justify her LoW status (especially if she finally gets EW. Who wants an unkillable Flying Nun?).

Living Saints aren't the Imperiums answer to Daemon Princes. They're rare and unique. Any Living Saint deserves to be their own Special Character. Having them be a generic HQ doesn't make sense. Living Saints, especially ones like Celestine are an Oddity, not something that are so common that they can be talked about as a population.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
So last time I worked on that original update I didn't do a lot of points chopping. I mean, I did some (mostly on things like Power Weapons and other options like that), but I did very little of it to the overall army. As such here's the deal: we all know the army is largely overcosted for infantry models all over the place, as such I say all non-HQ infantry models (save for the Sororitas Command Squad) gets dropped 1ppm, to include additional models (keeping the same 10point upgrade cost for Veteran Sisters Superiors though).

That'd mean:
10 point BSS
12 point Celestians
13 point Repentia (I almost want them to be 12 but they puree Tact Marine squads if they catch them so 13 is about right at most)
14 point Seraphim
11 point Dominions (the only reason they don't get to be 10 is because they have Scout)
10 point Retributors

I almost want to knock 5-10 more points of Penitent Engines (to put them at 60-65) but I'm not really sure that it'd make them feel worth taking.

Instead of making them super cheap, I'd just like to see them be worth their points and the Whole Codex bolster them with worthwhile options. The Sisters of Battle are still an army of Elites they're no Imperial Guar or even Storm Troopers.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Also considering allowing two models in a regular Battle Sisters squad to take two heavy, two special, or one of each instead of a special or a special and a heavy. Any remarks?

I went with 1 special at 5 models, 1 special or heavy at 10, another special at 15 and another special or heavy at 20.

I like the concept of rewarding people for playing a unit of over ten models, may appropriate something like this.

I gave units larger than 10 models access to the Rhino Advancer an open-topped transport that seats 20.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

Also considering allowing two models in a regular Battle Sisters squad to take two heavy, two special, or one of each instead of a special or a special and a heavy. Any remarks?

Well I tend to take only Melta guns or Flamers so I would like it

Is there any fluffy reason the Sisters would use larger squads especially given they tend to operate using 10 person vehicles??

Rules-wise it's a grandfather-clause thing more than anything else; they've been 5-20 or 10-20 in every book, so we're rolling with it.

Lore-wise I'd think it's because they're a step in between the Space Marines (5-10 man squads) and the Imperial Guard (25-100 man platoons) on the general spectrum of tactical flexibility, they're not elite rapid-response forces like the Space Marines or Veteran Guard armies, but at the same time they're not large unwieldy garrison forces with immense quantities of bodies to draw on. They're a militarily-independent force that garrisons their own outposts all over the place so they tend to have more bodies on hand than Space Marines who sit on their asses until they need to make a dramatic entrance do, but they're more elite and expensive to equip than the Guard. (To anyone who's about to jump down my throat on this one the Sisters can and do field elite rapid-response forces, but it's not the core purpose of their army in the same way it is for Marines, Elysians, Eldar, and the like)

That said I do want to push for larger-capacity transport vehicles to accommodate fifteen or twenty-model Sisters units; it's a prime mover behind wanting Sororitas Land Raiders and basing the Erelim (the name comes from MrSako's Sororitas Stormraven but I'm appropriating it) off of the Storm Eagle in addition to working out a Rhino Advancer. Really large units (twenty-model Guardian, Kabalite Warrior, Chaos Marine, etc.) units don't see play in Codexes that don't have the transports for them because a unit with a transport is tougher, faster, and overall more valuable as a unit than either the unit or the transport would be alone; twenty-model 30k squads do see play because the transport platforms are available there. (This is be a gross oversimplification, there are other factors that include the fact that a twenty-man Tactical Squad in 30k is fifty points cheaper than two ten-man Tactical Squads, but I'm focusing on the issues that are easier for me to address when writing a 7e Sisters book)

Check out my Codex for rules on a Rhino Advancer, also check out the Divinity Assult Craft that can also fit 20 models.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I'm giving thought to giving Seraphim melee attacks with different sorts of pistols, but they'd be the only folks besides Cypher to gain melee benefit from a plasma pistol. Any remarks?

Some things need to stay in Horus Heresy such as overcomplicated Special Rules.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I'd specify "any models in an army including detachments from Codex: Chaos Space Marines or Codex: Chaos Daemons", even with traitors there's a degree of far-gone that's unacceptable and a degree to which redemption is still possible.

I don't know that 25pts is a fair cost; for 30pts CSM can get a 4/3 12" Torrent flamer, which seems vastly better on all fronts. Maybe 20pts?


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 ClockworkZion wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I'm giving thought to giving Seraphim melee attacks with different sorts of pistols, but they'd be the only folks besides Cypher to gain melee benefit from a plasma pistol. Any remarks?

Believe me I've been there too, but I never really could get it to feel like it was fairly balanced or anything so I gave up on it.

Any complaints about Holy Promethium having Deflagerate as a rule? It'd make Sisters better at anti-horde, something they are REALLY bad at currently.

I feel like anti-horde isn't where Sisters struggle given the quantity of flamers they can bring to the table, honestly. Straight-up lifting Deflagrate would look weird lore-wise, but I'm not sure about a good replacement.

As to the pistols two hand flamers would probably be +2A instead of +1 for two close combat weapons, two inferno pistols could count as meltabombs, and two plasma pistols could be half Attacks at AP2 with Gets Hot in melee, nothing too excessive.

You're trying too hard to punish people for a certain Allies combination, just make it have your bonuses against Chaos Space Marines and Chaos Daemons.

Seraphim don't need bonuses based on what pistols they have.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Ideas for Relics:

Potentially bring back the Flail, the Staff and the Axe, and other relics from the 2e book?

Katherine's Praesidium (Praesidium Protectiva +1 of some kind - maybe makes nearby units Faithful, or Fearless or some such?)

My take on the old Relics;

Tears of the Emperor.
There are many stories of statues of the Emperor and other icons of the faith weeping blood-like tears. These tears are collected in ornate crystal bottles, and they are a potent weapon against the forces of Chaos.
The phial can be thrown just like a grenade and uses a 2" blast marker. Any daemon affected takes a wound on a d6 roll of 4+ and receives no invulnerable save from its Daemon rule.

Phial of Dolan
Anyone who drinks the contents of one of these crystal bottles is filled with the strength and determination of Dolan, the Great Confessor.
The character may drink the contents of the phial at the start of any turn. For the rest of the player's turn, the character is counted as being under the effects of the Iron Arm biomancy power. One use only.

Axe of Retribution
The Axe of Retribution is styled upon the famous Axe of Chalcydon borne by Saint Jason of Huale. Its massive double-bladed head is studded with jewels which rend the flesh of those it strikes. The Axe may be used in close combat with the following profile:

Close Combat. S User +2, AP 5, Melee, Armourbane, Shred

Staff of Belief
Carved of wood taken from the massive trees lining the Garden of Saints, the Staff of Belief is a potent symbol of faith and devotion.

The Staff is a Close-Combat weapon with the following profile:

Close Combat Strength user +3 AP - Melee, Two-handed, Parry, Daemonbane

Parry: The wielder recieves a +1 bonus to their Invulnerable Save in close combat (to a maximum of 3+)

Daemonbane: Invulnerable Saves from the Daemon special rule may not be taken against wounds from this weapon.

Flail of Chastisement
The Flail of Chastisement is barbed with small hooks which grip the target's flesh and constrict it as it struggles.

Close Combat | Strength User +2 | AP5 | Melee, Tangle

Tangle: A model wounded but not killed (including saved wounds) by the Flail reduces the number of attacks they may make in their next Fight sub-phase by D3 (to a minimum of 1)

Check my Relics, I statted all of the above except the Tears and Phial.

Finally, please read my Codex: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/609583.page#7102148

A lot of these Ideas I've already implemented and have had a good deal of discussion on.

@J3f
nice job on that codex. It does look good

Furyou Miko wrote:Ideas for Relics:

Potentially bring back the Flail, the Staff and the Axe, and other relics from the 2e book?

Katherine's Praesidium (Praesidium Protectiva +1 of some kind - maybe makes nearby units Faithful, or Fearless or some such?)

My take on the old Relics;

Tears of the Emperor.
There are many stories of statues of the Emperor and other icons of the faith weeping blood-like tears. These tears are collected in ornate crystal bottles, and they are a potent weapon against the forces of Chaos.
The phial can be thrown just like a grenade and uses a 2" blast marker. Any daemon affected takes a wound on a d6 roll of 4+ and receives no invulnerable save from its Daemon rule.

Frankly I don't know why we should get such a potent anti-Daemon weapon. We're not an army that strictly fights Daemons.

J3f wrote:First off Land Raiders are Space Marines only. Inquisitor's can get away with taking a few, but that's because they do what they want. Sisters or the Ecclesiarchy couldn't get away with stockpiling Land Raiders. If you want to see how people react to Sisters of Battle getting Land Raiders check my original thread on the B&C: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286511-homebrew-codex-sisters-of-battle-6th-edition/

I didn't read all of the posts but I did see one person who was a bit angier about it than he probably should have been. Anyways, point taken about the Land Raiders.

J3f wrote:The reference to Tech-Sisters comes from Imperial Armour Volume 2 Second Edition. I also statted them in my own codex. There was some discussion in my original Thread on them: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/582990.page#6598123/

I'll have to look at IA2 then because I'm curious about what they wrote.
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Also a Sororitas tank based on the Relic Predator running with the torrent Flamestorm Cannon or the melta cannon as turret guns. No way an idea that fitting and pre-priced for me is staying out.

J3f wrote:I specifically didn't make Militia Warbands (Zealots in My Codex) Troops becuase they would overshadow Battle sisters like Cultists overhadow Chaos Space Marines. It's also too obvious a violation of the Decree Passive.

The idea, if I'm recalling correctly, of Zealots and Frateris Militia is that they were the common rabble. People who were either fighting because they sided with the Sisters, or those who just happened to be there to stage a defense. I mean Sisters are usually where the Ecclesiarchy is so it makes sense that if they're caught up in a fight, the common man is too.

J3f wrote:Living Saints aren't the Imperiums answer to Daemon Princes. They're rare and unique. Any Living Saint deserves to be their own Special Character. Having them be a generic HQ doesn't make sense. Living Saints, especially ones like Celestine are an Oddity, not something that are so common that they can be talked about as a population.

I'd argue it depends on your interpretation of the fluff. But if you'll note, since that post I posted a more generic "Saint" who wasn't Celestine with the serial number filed off.

J3f wrote:Instead of making them super cheap, I'd just like to see them be worth their points and the Whole Codex bolster them with worthwhile options. The Sisters of Battle are still an army of Elites they're no Imperial Guar or even Storm Troopers.

Veterans are 6 points, knocking BSS to 10 still isn't putting them close. And Storm Troopers are overpriced at 12 (one point below CSM and 2 below Marines).

J3f wrote:You're trying too hard to punish people for a certain Allies combination, just make it have your bonuses against Chaos Space Marines and Chaos Daemons.

I really didn't to involve Daemons in it at all. I wanted Traitor Guard and CSM to be the things that it gets bonuses against because that fits the idea of it being "Heretic's Bane".

I believe originally, we got the Tears of the Emperor because the Ecclesiarchy are the ones who gather and store them, and because their powers are faith-based.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
I believe originally, we got the Tears of the Emperor because the Ecclesiarchy are the ones who gather and store them, and because their powers are faith-based.

It still sounds more like something the Inquisition or the Grey Knights would have instead. It just doesn't fit the Sisters in my mind.

Quick aside on anti-horde: if you want Blast, the most logical place to put it as on an alternative warhead for the Exorcist.

 SisterSydney wrote:
Quick aside on anti-horde: if you want Blast, the most logical place to put it as on an alternative warhead for the Exorcist.

That or turn the Exorcist into a Blast Barrage Weapon (not really what I want to do honestly).