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Josey4u wrote: Just to back up some, Help me out again why we wouldn't have land raiders? especially with the vehicles we have based off the rhino chasis. Now I'm not saying a fleet of them by any means. But make them unique, 0-1 allowed in your army. No assault cannon though as previously mentioned.
IDK I actually think its a good fit.
0-1 died some time ago (or else Riptides wouldn't be able to run so deep). If we want to limit them we'd have to make them "unique", but then we'd punish people with really large armies, or who want to field them in Apoc or something.
I think as long as they're fluffed as rare and sacred relics whose legacies date back a couple thousand years each then it'd be no problem. If someone wants to run three they could run three (and spend over 600 points just on mobile bricks that not even Black Templars seem to run in force).
0-1 is on its way back in with the Relics of the Armoury rule limiting folks' Fire Raptors and Relic Predators. Call them Relics of the Armoury and make the aforementioned Order Pronatus a variant HQ choice that's the Sisters' Keeper of Relics?
Josey4u wrote: Just to back up some, Help me out again why we wouldn't have land raiders? especially with the vehicles we have based off the rhino chasis. Now I'm not saying a fleet of them by any means. But make them unique, 0-1 allowed in your army. No assault cannon though as previously mentioned.
IDK I actually think its a good fit.
0-1 died some time ago (or else Riptides wouldn't be able to run so deep). If we want to limit them we'd have to make them "unique", but then we'd punish people with really large armies, or who want to field them in Apoc or something.
I think as long as they're fluffed as rare and sacred relics whose legacies date back a couple thousand years each then it'd be no problem. If someone wants to run three they could run three (and spend over 600 points just on mobile bricks that not even Black Templars seem to run in force).
Yea I like that. I really can't see why they wouldn't have them. Power armor, bolters, but no real armor. And like you stated, its a LOT of points for those things.
Sometimes there's Justice, sometimes there's Just Us...
AnomanderRake wrote: 0-1 is on its way back in with the Relics of the Armoury rule limiting folks' Fire Raptors and Relic Predators. Call them Relics of the Armoury and make the aforementioned Order Pronatus a variant HQ choice that's the Sisters' Keeper of Relics?
Only FW does that though, and doesn't do it in an army list but with bonus options. And unless we make those really fething special Land Raiders I don't see the point in limiting them. They're expensive, massive bricks that even Marines don't want to take multiples of, so what point would there to be to limit it in a Sisters army? Especially when you put them in the HS slot, and don't make them DTs (thus making them compete with Exorcists for space)?
AnomanderRake wrote: I really, really don't like the once per game per unit setup. It seems contrary to the tone and function of Acts of Faith in the older books, where they were a fungible resource you could use to make parts of your army more effective temporarily when and where you wanted them them; the Emperor's blessing pops up where it's most needed, He doesn't say "Whoops, nope, helped you lot already this battle, I'm going off to twiddle my thumbs somewhere else now".
The biggest Act missing from the list is Divine Guidance; the Sisters are supposed to be a short-ranged shooty army, leaving Rending to guns out but leaving old Hand of the Emperor in doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
You did catch that those three AoF were in addition to unit specific ones, right? Because I kind of have Divine Guidance over on Retributors at the moment. And while I'm not against putting Rending back into a general pool, we kind of need a replacement for the Retributors that makes up for stealing their stuff.
AnomanderRake wrote: Automatically Appended Next Post: Reintroduction? I don't recall this mechanic, could you point me to where it started?
2nd Edition. You rolled Battle Rites at the start of the game and they could give the army bonuses. I don't have my 2nd Edition codex super handy right this second so I tried brainstorming some ideas I thought would fit with a format that could expand to fit more fairly easily.
Apparently not on the Acts in addition to the unit-specific ones. I don't like the concept of unit-specific Acts at all; right now I've got the Acts set up in the common pool as follows:
Light of the Emperor: Beginning of the turn. Unit auto-regroups and may act normally. Battle Sisters units that use this Act may reroll 1s to hit in the Shooting phase this turn.
Hand of the Emperor: Beginning of either Assault phase. +2 Strength and Unwieldy to all weapons. Celestians that use this Act don't take the Unwieldy penalty from this Act and may reroll charge distances this phase.
Divine Guidance: Beginning of the Shooting phase. Unit's weapons gain Rending this Shooting phase. Retributors that use this Act may reroll 1s to hit this phase.
The Passion: Beginning of either Assault phase. +2 I. Heroines or units joined by Heroines that use this Act gain Hatred (Everyone) and Preferred Enemy (Everyone) as well.
Spirit of the Martyr: Beginning of either Assault phase or the enemy Shooting phase. Inv equal to normal armour save for the duration of the phase. Repentia who use this Act are removed from play at the end of the Fight sub-phase instead of at the Initiative step when they're killed (so they get the chance to hit back).
March of the Faithful: Beginning of the Movement phase. Move Through Cover. Celestian Command Squads additionally gain Relentless until the end of the current turn.
The Emperor's Deliverance: Beginning of the Shooting or either Assault phase. Reroll 1s to wound. Seraphim instead reroll all failed rolls to Wound.
Divine Swiftness: Beginning of the Shooting phase. Fleet. Dominions additionally may shoot and run in the same phase (either order).
Unless otherwise noted all Acts last one phase, a given unit may not use more than one Act in a phase. The limiting factor (Faith Points, methods of generation, costs) are yet to be determined; I personally like my roll-per-unit-to-generate as a limiting factor that scales with the army but I'm going to go back and do some calculations on the odds to try and figure out the inherent variability (I know it's intrinsically tied to binomial coefficients and the pool gets larger slowly and normalizes to average values exponentially but I'm still going to check).
Going to go dig up the 2e book and see what I can uncover on the subject of the Rites of Battle thing.
AnomanderRake wrote: 0-1 is on its way back in with the Relics of the Armoury rule limiting folks' Fire Raptors and Relic Predators. Call them Relics of the Armoury and make the aforementioned Order Pronatus a variant HQ choice that's the Sisters' Keeper of Relics?
Only FW does that though, and doesn't do it in an army list but with bonus options. And unless we make those really fething special Land Raiders I don't see the point in limiting them. They're expensive, massive bricks that even Marines don't want to take multiples of, so what point would there to be to limit it in a Sisters army? Especially when you put them in the HS slot, and don't make them DTs (thus making them compete with Exorcists for space)?
My ulterior motive on the subject is wanting a Land Raider with the pipe organ built into the back. I'd think the niche the Land Raiders would fill that the Sisters don't really have right now is a large assault transport; the Rhino and Rhino-chassis transports are more of generic mobility/utility vehicles and battlefield transports, not something you can run straight through something that needs breaching spraying fire all over the place without a shred of fear.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Josey4u wrote: Ugh, When the heck are we getting our plastic figs already. Now I'm really ready to finish my army.
^Yes.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/22 02:43:21
AnomanderRake wrote: I really, really don't like the once per game per unit setup. It seems contrary to the tone and function of Acts of Faith in the older books, where they were a fungible resource you could use to make parts of your army more effective temporarily when and where you wanted them them; the Emperor's blessing pops up where it's most needed, He doesn't say "Whoops, nope, helped you lot already this battle, I'm going off to twiddle my thumbs somewhere else now".
The biggest Act missing from the list is Divine Guidance; the Sisters are supposed to be a short-ranged shooty army, leaving Rending to guns out but leaving old Hand of the Emperor in doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
You did catch that those three AoF were in addition to unit specific ones, right? Because I kind of have Divine Guidance over on Retributors at the moment. And while I'm not against putting Rending back into a general pool, we kind of need a replacement for the Retributors that makes up for stealing their stuff.
AnomanderRake wrote: Automatically Appended Next Post: Reintroduction? I don't recall this mechanic, could you point me to where it started?
2nd Edition. You rolled Battle Rites at the start of the game and they could give the army bonuses. I don't have my 2nd Edition codex super handy right this second so I tried brainstorming some ideas I thought would fit with a format that could expand to fit more fairly easily.
Apparently not on the Acts in addition to the unit-specific ones. I don't like the concept of unit-specific Acts at all; right now I've got the Acts set up in the common pool as follows:
Light of the Emperor: Beginning of the turn. Unit auto-regroups and may act normally. Battle Sisters units that use this Act may reroll 1s to hit in the Shooting phase this turn.
Hand of the Emperor: Beginning of either Assault phase. +2 Strength and Unwieldy to all weapons. Celestians that use this Act don't take the Unwieldy penalty from this Act and may reroll charge distances this phase.
Divine Guidance: Beginning of the Shooting phase. Unit's weapons gain Rending this Shooting phase. Retributors that use this Act may reroll 1s to hit this phase.
The Passion: Beginning of either Assault phase. +2 I. Heroines or units joined by Heroines that use this Act gain Hatred (Everyone) and Preferred Enemy (Everyone) as well.
Spirit of the Martyr: Beginning of either Assault phase or the enemy Shooting phase. Inv equal to normal armour save for the duration of the phase. Repentia who use this Act are removed from play at the end of the Fight sub-phase instead of at the Initiative step when they're killed (so they get the chance to hit back).
March of the Faithful: Beginning of the Movement phase. Move Through Cover. Celestian Command Squads additionally gain Relentless until the end of the current turn.
The Emperor's Deliverance: Beginning of the Shooting or either Assault phase. Reroll 1s to wound. Seraphim instead reroll all failed rolls to Wound.
Divine Swiftness: Beginning of the Shooting phase. Fleet. Dominions additionally may shoot and run in the same phase (either order).
Unless otherwise noted all Acts last one phase, a given unit may not use more than one Act in a phase. The limiting factor (Faith Points, methods of generation, costs) are yet to be determined; I personally like my roll-per-unit-to-generate as a limiting factor that scales with the army but I'm going to go back and do some calculations on the odds to try and figure out the inherent variability (I know it's intrinsically tied to binomial coefficients and the pool gets larger slowly and normalizes to average values exponentially but I'm still going to check).
Going to go dig up the 2e book and see what I can uncover on the subject of the Rites of Battle thing.
I really like the idea of unit specific Acts because they help add flavor to each unit. Without them we fall under the same issue as the Grey Knights, the same basic thing is copy and pasted with different wargear into new slots and that's basically it. We don't have a lot going on in terms of flavor and I think taking that away hurts more than helps the army.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Plastic figures seem to be slated for release when the Antichrist is born. So we might be waiting a while.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/22 02:45:13
I tried to go somewhere in between the extremes with the common pool and special effects for each Act if used by the unit that's most closely tied to the Act.
AnomanderRake wrote: I tried to go somewhere in between the extremes with the common pool and special effects for each Act if used by the unit that's most closely tied to the Act.
You're still missing the point: when you take unit specific Acts away, what really makes the units different from each other? They (almost, Seraphim are exempt) all use the same models, have the same statlines, and the same equipment. The only things giving them any flavor is Scout (on Dominons) and their specific Acts of Faith. Taking those away is like scraping the toppings off a sundae: you remove what makes it different and just make it vanilla.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/22 02:56:01
AnomanderRake wrote: I tried to go somewhere in between the extremes with the common pool and special effects for each Act if used by the unit that's most closely tied to the Act.
You're still missing the point: when you take unit specific Acts away, what really makes the units different from each other? They (almost, Seraphim are exempt) all use the same models, have the same statlines, and the same equipment. The only things giving them any flavor is Scout (on Dominons) and their specific Acts of Faith. Taking those away is like scraping the toppings off a sundae: you remove what makes it different and just make it vanilla.
I could ask you the same question of Space Marines. What differentiates a Tactical Marine, an Assault Marine, a Devastator, and a Veteran beyond what gear they get?
That said under my system everyone still has a unique Act, it's just that everyone else gets access to a weaker version of the Act. The unit-specific variations are a major differentiator; regular Sisters' status as general line troops is reinforced by their ranged fire buff coming out of the generic morale buff (so they require fewer Faith Points to keep in the fight than everyone else), Repentia do suicide missions very well with the strikes-after-dying variant on Spirit of the Martyr even though everyone else can use Spirit to be briefly tougher, Seraphim hit like a ton of bricks when they get up close with reroll all Wounds (150% as effective against T4 with flamers and bolt pistols), et cetera. Beyond that the difference between "one per five or two per five of these three weapons that are the same across all units?" is a little different from "one per five of two special and three heavy, or two per five of two special, or two per five of three heavy", so the wargear selections between Dominions, Sisters, and Retributors are a ways off the blandness of GK units.
It took some digging to find them online, but I found the old Sacred Rites:
Special Rules
Some Adeptus Ministorum characters may lead a squad they accompany in the Sacred Rites. Roll a D6 on the Sacred Rites table to find out what effect the prayers have on the squad. The following modifiers apply and are cumulative with each other ( a Canoness in an army with a psyker adds a total of +2 to the roll, for instance):
- A Canoness adds +3 to the roll.
- A Veteran Sister Superior adds +2 to the roll.
- A Sister Superior adds +1 to the roll.
- A Missionary Major Hero adds +1 to the roll.
- If there is a psyker in the same army as the Ecclesiarchy, all roll for Sacred Rites suffer a -1 penalty.
Note: If a Canoness, Missionary Hero, or Missionary Major Hero leads a squad in the Sacred Rites, the character must be set up within squad coherency of the unit at the start of the battle. If the character leading the squad in the Sacred rites subsequently leaves the unit, any benefit from the Sacred Rites is lost for the rest of the battle-the unit will think they are being abandoned by the Emperor! The unit loses its Sacred rites if another character later leads the unit. The results of the Sacred Rites apply to all members of the squad and any characters who start the battle in squad coherency with them, including the character leading the Rites. Adeptus Ministorum characters cannot join squads of Space Marines, Adeptus Mechanicus and squads led by an Inquisitor, so they may not lead these squads in the Sacred Rites. Adeptus Ministorum characters also refuse to lead the mutated Ogryns and Ratlings in the Sacred Rites, though they can join these units.
D6 Result
1 No Effect
2 The squad is immune to fear and terror for the duration of the battle. See the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook.
3 The squad becomes subject to frenzy. See the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook for details.
4 The squad adds +1 to its Leadership for the duration of the battle. This cannot take its Leadership value over 10.
5 The squad hates the enemy. See the Warhammer rulebook for details.
6 Each member of the squad has a psychic save of 4+ on a D6. Note that this is not a nullify-roll for each model: on a 4+ it is unaffected. Some of the squad may be affected by the psychic power while others aren't.
7 The squad automatically passes all psychology and Break tests it is required to make.
8 The squad is so determined to smite their enemies that it pays no heed to their own safety. The squad may ignore the Choosing a Target rules and fire at any enemy squad or vehicles you wish. The squad cannot pick out enemy characters unless they are more than 2" from a squad and the closest target, as detailed in the Heroic Characters section of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook.
9 Once in the battle, at the end of the shooting phase, the squad may fire again. Weapons that are jammed or recharging may not be fired and will stay jammed or recharging until the next shooting phase as normal.
ClockworkZion wrote: It took some digging to find them online, but I found the old Sacred Rites:
Special Rules
Some Adeptus Ministorum characters may lead a squad they accompany in the Sacred Rites. Roll a D6 on the Sacred Rites table to find out what effect the prayers have on the squad. The following modifiers apply and are cumulative with each other ( a Canoness in an army with a psyker adds a total of +2 to the roll, for instance):
- A Canoness adds +3 to the roll.
- A Veteran Sister Superior adds +2 to the roll.
- A Sister Superior adds +1 to the roll.
- A Missionary Major Hero adds +1 to the roll.
- If there is a psyker in the same army as the Ecclesiarchy, all roll for Sacred Rites suffer a -1 penalty.
Note: If a Canoness, Missionary Hero, or Missionary Major Hero leads a squad in the Sacred Rites, the character must be set up within squad coherency of the unit at the start of the battle. If the character leading the squad in the Sacred rites subsequently leaves the unit, any benefit from the Sacred Rites is lost for the rest of the battle-the unit will think they are being abandoned by the Emperor! The unit loses its Sacred rites if another character later leads the unit. The results of the Sacred Rites apply to all members of the squad and any characters who start the battle in squad coherency with them, including the character leading the Rites. Adeptus Ministorum characters cannot join squads of Space Marines, Adeptus Mechanicus and squads led by an Inquisitor, so they may not lead these squads in the Sacred Rites. Adeptus Ministorum characters also refuse to lead the mutated Ogryns and Ratlings in the Sacred Rites, though they can join these units.
D6 Result
1 No Effect
2 The squad is immune to fear and terror for the duration of the battle. See the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook.
3 The squad becomes subject to frenzy. See the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook for details.
4 The squad adds +1 to its Leadership for the duration of the battle. This cannot take its Leadership value over 10.
5 The squad hates the enemy. See the Warhammer rulebook for details.
6 Each member of the squad has a psychic save of 4+ on a D6. Note that this is not a nullify-roll for each model: on a 4+ it is unaffected. Some of the squad may be affected by the psychic power while others aren't.
7 The squad automatically passes all psychology and Break tests it is required to make.
8 The squad is so determined to smite their enemies that it pays no heed to their own safety. The squad may ignore the Choosing a Target rules and fire at any enemy squad or vehicles you wish. The squad cannot pick out enemy characters unless they are more than 2" from a squad and the closest target, as detailed in the Heroic Characters section of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook.
9 Once in the battle, at the end of the shooting phase, the squad may fire again. Weapons that are jammed or recharging may not be fired and will stay jammed or recharging until the next shooting phase as normal.
Much prefer the current Codex system - it tends to get me what I want when I want it
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
ClockworkZion wrote: It took some digging to find them online, but I found the old Sacred Rites:
Special Rules
Some Adeptus Ministorum characters may lead a squad they accompany in the Sacred Rites. Roll a D6 on the Sacred Rites table to find out what effect the prayers have on the squad. The following modifiers apply and are cumulative with each other ( a Canoness in an army with a psyker adds a total of +2 to the roll, for instance):
- A Canoness adds +3 to the roll.
- A Veteran Sister Superior adds +2 to the roll.
- A Sister Superior adds +1 to the roll.
- A Missionary Major Hero adds +1 to the roll.
- If there is a psyker in the same army as the Ecclesiarchy, all roll for Sacred Rites suffer a -1 penalty.
Note: If a Canoness, Missionary Hero, or Missionary Major Hero leads a squad in the Sacred Rites, the character must be set up within squad coherency of the unit at the start of the battle. If the character leading the squad in the Sacred rites subsequently leaves the unit, any benefit from the Sacred Rites is lost for the rest of the battle-the unit will think they are being abandoned by the Emperor! The unit loses its Sacred rites if another character later leads the unit. The results of the Sacred Rites apply to all members of the squad and any characters who start the battle in squad coherency with them, including the character leading the Rites. Adeptus Ministorum characters cannot join squads of Space Marines, Adeptus Mechanicus and squads led by an Inquisitor, so they may not lead these squads in the Sacred Rites. Adeptus Ministorum characters also refuse to lead the mutated Ogryns and Ratlings in the Sacred Rites, though they can join these units.
D6 Result
1 No Effect
2 The squad is immune to fear and terror for the duration of the battle. See the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook.
3 The squad becomes subject to frenzy. See the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook for details.
4 The squad adds +1 to its Leadership for the duration of the battle. This cannot take its Leadership value over 10.
5 The squad hates the enemy. See the Warhammer rulebook for details.
6 Each member of the squad has a psychic save of 4+ on a D6. Note that this is not a nullify-roll for each model: on a 4+ it is unaffected. Some of the squad may be affected by the psychic power while others aren't.
7 The squad automatically passes all psychology and Break tests it is required to make.
8 The squad is so determined to smite their enemies that it pays no heed to their own safety. The squad may ignore the Choosing a Target rules and fire at any enemy squad or vehicles you wish. The squad cannot pick out enemy characters unless they are more than 2" from a squad and the closest target, as detailed in the Heroic Characters section of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook.
9 Once in the battle, at the end of the shooting phase, the squad may fire again. Weapons that are jammed or recharging may not be fired and will stay jammed or recharging until the next shooting phase as normal.
Much prefer the current Codex system - it tends to get me what I want when I want it
Oh very much agreed. But I wouldn't mind this coming back as an army wide thing of some kind that exists outside of the AoF. Kinda like the Warp Storm table or Chaos Boons table, only toned down and providing a small bonus army wide at most. I wouldn't mind seeing it return, as long as it doesn't replace the AoF.
I feel like that mechanic might be best set up as the Sisters' Warlord Traits table instead of a separate thing, if the bonuses are minor, to preserve simplicity.
Automatically Appended Next Post: My next concern is on how to work Martyrdom back into the rules; anyone have any suggestions?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/22 17:07:25
AnomanderRake wrote: I feel like that mechanic might be best set up as the Sisters' Warlord Traits table instead of a separate thing, if the bonuses are minor, to preserve simplicity.
Well I did have a bonus listed to make the Warlord into a living Saint (stat wise at least).
And Warlord Traits don't typically effect the whole army, the original Sacred Rites table basically did.
AnomanderRake wrote: Automatically Appended Next Post: My next concern is on how to work Martyrdom back into the rules; anyone have any suggestions?
Deny VP?
Automatically Appended Next Post: That or a unit that loses a model with Martyrdom automatically passes their next Faith Test.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/09/22 17:11:17
AnomanderRake wrote: I feel like that mechanic might be best set up as the Sisters' Warlord Traits table instead of a separate thing, if the bonuses are minor, to preserve simplicity.
Well I did have a bonus listed to make the Warlord into a living Saint (stat wise at least).
And Warlord Traits don't typically effect the whole army, the original Sacred Rites table basically did.
AnomanderRake wrote: Automatically Appended Next Post: My next concern is on how to work Martyrdom back into the rules; anyone have any suggestions?
Deny VP?
Automatically Appended Next Post: That or a unit that loses a model with Martyrdom automatically passes their next Faith Test.
Some do affect everyone.
Denying VP for killing someone with Martyrdom feels like it upsets the paradigm of the game too much; if the Sisters army can't give up First Blood they have an edge. The 'unit that loses a model auto-passes the next Faith Test' is a better plan; my initial theory was something along the lines of Price of Failure/inverted Power from Pain where you pick a unit that could see the unit with Martyrdom that just got destroyed and give them some benefit.
Automatically Appended Next Post: On the subject of Chapter-Tactics-like setups for the six major Orders I've got a short list of ideas based on my research but I'd like to see if I got my impressions of the Orders correct beforehand.
Order of the Ebon Chalice: Traditionalists, tend to field balanced lists with no Allies and an emphasis on infantry over vehicles. Not sure about their unique trait but reroll Shield of Faith/Deny the Witch both seem like directions I'd take that.
Order of Our Martyred Lady: Hardasses, unusually driven to avenge the fallen, no particular list-building theories. Unique trait is probably going to have something to do with Martyrdom; apply the benefit to multiple units that saw the unit die, that sort of thing.
Order of the Sacred Rose: Cool-headed and deliberate, prefer gunfire to melee. My best idea for their unique trait is rerolling Snap Shots; they're better at keeping their heads in bad situations (vehicle shaken)/calculating when long shots are worth it (moving with heavy weapons) than their more impulsive Sisters.
Order of the Bloody Rose: Ferocious, prefer mobility/melee. Without messing with the paradigm of the game too much I'm thinking reroll 1s to hit in the turn they disembark from their transports or the ability to disembark from a transport that moved 12" (with some limitation, Dangerous Terrain test?) are the most likely directions to go.
Order of the Argent Shroud: Pragmatists, friendlier to the rest of the Imperium, no particular tendency with list-building but more characterful to run Allies here. May use Acts of Faith while joined to/by a friendly non-psyker character is probably too open to abuse but I don't honestly have any other characterful ideas for them.
Order of the Valorous Heart: Hyper-pious and demand penance for the slightest of deviations from doctrine, probably have more Repentia than is healthy. Special benefits from Martyrdom if it's a Repentia unit being destroyed step on the Order of Our Martyred Lady's toes a bit, I was thinking of including Repentia as a 0-1 unit that doesn't take up a slot but is otherwise treated as Troops and then taking away the limitation for Valorous Heart armies, but I'm hesitant to go that far. Maybe let Repentia have Objective Secured for them and not otherwise?
Beyond that the only major question I've come across is the treatment of generic Living Saints; the prior version of my rules presented them as Independent Characters using a profile based on Saint Celestine, but I'm debating whether the Sisters need a toe-to-toe beatstick to help them stand on their own, and with that in mind whether the Living Saint as a Monstrous Creature with higher S/T is worth considering (My only source for anything like this is Soulstorm; a bad source on anything, I know, but it's a compelling idea).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/23 00:15:06
We need to distinguish between "generic Living Saint" and "Saint Celestine with the serial number filed off" (which seems to be what Soulstorm did, not that I've played it). Wasn't Sebastian Thor also considered a Living Saint? There are plenty of possibilities beyond "flying beatstick." Leadership and Faith boosts would be very characterful, for example.
BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN
Psienesis wrote: Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.
SisterSydney wrote: We need to distinguish between "generic Living Saint" and "Saint Celestine with the serial number filed off" (which seems to be what Soulstorm did, not that I've played it). Wasn't Sebastian Thor also considered a Living Saint? There are plenty of possibilities beyond "flying beatstick." Leadership and Faith boosts would be very characterful, for example.
If you take a look at my rules made for 6e (there should be a link earlier in this thread) I used the base statline but you could field one on foot, with a jump pack, with a bike (still not sure about the fate of the bike Sisters), and with a variety of weapons including heavy weapons, plus there's a set of unique skills (+1 to Faith Point generation rolls (system tentative, this one may not survive), enemies charge her unit as if through Dangerous Terrain, Fearless bubble, etc).
Automatically Appended Next Post: They were supposed to be a character tier above and beyond the Canoness, with better stats and some tricks but similar options and battlefield role.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/23 01:30:41
SisterSydney wrote: We need to distinguish between "generic Living Saint" and "Saint Celestine with the serial number filed off" (which seems to be what Soulstorm did, not that I've played it). Wasn't Sebastian Thor also considered a Living Saint? There are plenty of possibilities beyond "flying beatstick." Leadership and Faith boosts would be very characterful, for example.
I had a concept of a Generic Living Saint that was basically like a Pheonix Lord. Standard Statline and wargear base and you then got to essentially go nuts and customize them into the (expensive) brick of your dreams.
Honestly, consider I'm pretty sure that Celestine is going to end up parked in the LoW section (unless Sisters get something REALLY freaking awesome in their next eventual codex update (anyone else feeling a lot like Nids at this point: updates every edition (since 5th) and they don't fix things but kind of feel like they're making them worse? Or is it just me?), I think filing her serial number off might be a bit much. That is unless we swing it the other way and file her serial numbers off, but she's the only Living Saint with their own Act of Faith which would be enough to justify her LoW status (especially if she finally gets EW. Who wants an unkillable Flying Nun?).
My homebrewed Living Saints... one of them uses the rules for Uriah Jacobus (she's a farm girl, hence the shotgun), while the other is a crazy pistol-ninja (rules: human with BS 5 and a 4++ dodge, rending, can fire her laspistol three times each shooting phase at different targets).
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
Ha! These saints please me. Now I would someone to stat up Summer Glau as River Tam as a Repentia, please.
BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN
Psienesis wrote: Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.
SisterSydney wrote: We need to distinguish between "generic Living Saint" and "Saint Celestine with the serial number filed off" (which seems to be what Soulstorm did, not that I've played it). Wasn't Sebastian Thor also considered a Living Saint? There are plenty of possibilities beyond "flying beatstick." Leadership and Faith boosts would be very characterful, for example.
I had a concept of a Generic Living Saint that was basically like a Pheonix Lord. Standard Statline and wargear base and you then got to essentially go nuts and customize them into the (expensive) brick of your dreams.
Honestly, consider I'm pretty sure that Celestine is going to end up parked in the LoW section (unless Sisters get something REALLY freaking awesome in their next eventual codex update (anyone else feeling a lot like Nids at this point: updates every edition (since 5th) and they don't fix things but kind of feel like they're making them worse? Or is it just me?), I think filing her serial number off might be a bit much. That is unless we swing it the other way and file her serial numbers off, but she's the only Living Saint with their own Act of Faith which would be enough to justify her LoW status (especially if she finally gets EW. Who wants an unkillable Flying Nun?).
Or go to both extremes. Living Saints as S/T3 ICs in regular HQ and Ascended Living Saints as S/T6 FMCs in Lords of War.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SisterSydney wrote: Ha! These saints please me. Now I would someone to stat up Summer Glau as River Tam as a Repentia, please.
I'd peg her as a character Death-Cult Assassin, personally.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/23 02:31:48
So last time I worked on that original update I didn't do a lot of points chopping. I mean, I did some (mostly on things like Power Weapons and other options like that), but I did very little of it to the overall army. As such here's the deal: we all know the army is largely overcosted for infantry models all over the place, as such I say all non-HQ infantry models (save for the Sororitas Command Squad) gets dropped 1ppm, to include additional models (keeping the same 10point upgrade cost for Veteran Sisters Superiors though).
That'd mean:
10 point BSS 12 point Celestians
13 point Repentia (I almost want them to be 12 but they puree Tact Marine squads if they catch them so 13 is about right at most)
14 point Seraphim
11 point Dominions (the only reason they don't get to be 10 is because they have Scout)
10 point Retributors
I almost want to knock 5-10 more points of Penitent Engines (to put them at 60-65) but I'm not really sure that it'd make them feel worth taking.
People generally consider the Tauros Venator to be overcosted at 55 points because of its fragility, so I'm not sure. I don't think it's too cheap though!
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
Furyou Miko wrote: People generally consider the Tauros Venator to be overcosted at 55 points because of its fragility, so I'm not sure. I don't think it's too cheap though!
Right now it's 60ppm with a twin-linked multi-laser or 75ppm with a twin-linked lascannon; the only vehicles of comparable loadout and role I can think of off the top of my head are the Land Speeder and the Vyper. Twin-linked BS3 is slightly better than a single BS4 gun, but the Land Speeder and the Vyper can both get more/more versatile guns, are cheaper starting, and have Jink saves; I'd probably drop it to 50 starting with the multilaser and 60-65 with the lascannon.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ClockworkZion wrote: So last time I worked on that original update I didn't do a lot of points chopping. I mean, I did some (mostly on things like Power Weapons and other options like that), but I did very little of it to the overall army. As such here's the deal: we all know the army is largely overcosted for infantry models all over the place, as such I say all non-HQ infantry models (save for the Sororitas Command Squad) gets dropped 1ppm, to include additional models (keeping the same 10point upgrade cost for Veteran Sisters Superiors though).
That'd mean:
10 point BSS 12 point Celestians
13 point Repentia (I almost want them to be 12 but they puree Tact Marine squads if they catch them so 13 is about right at most)
14 point Seraphim
11 point Dominions (the only reason they don't get to be 10 is because they have Scout)
10 point Retributors
I almost want to knock 5-10 more points of Penitent Engines (to put them at 60-65) but I'm not really sure that it'd make them feel worth taking.
Comparing across books with the concepts I have right now a Battle Sisters squad loses a point of WS, S, T, and I over an identically armed Tactical Marine and trades Chapter Tactics, ATSKNF, and a more versatile weapon loadout for the Shield of Faith and access to Acts of Faith. I might keep them at 11ppm with the increased versatility of my Acts system, actually.
Also considering allowing two models in a regular Battle Sisters squad to take two heavy, two special, or one of each instead of a special or a special and a heavy. Any remarks?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/23 13:56:24
AnomanderRake wrote: Also considering allowing two models in a regular Battle Sisters squad to take two heavy, two special, or one of each instead of a special or a special and a heavy. Any remarks?
I went with 1 special at 5 models, 1 special or heavy at 10, another special at 15 and another special or heavy at 20.
AnomanderRake wrote: Also considering allowing two models in a regular Battle Sisters squad to take two heavy, two special, or one of each instead of a special or a special and a heavy. Any remarks?
I went with 1 special at 5 models, 1 special or heavy at 10, another special at 15 and another special or heavy at 20.
I like the concept of rewarding people for playing a unit of over ten models, may appropriate something like this.
AnomanderRake wrote: Also considering allowing two models in a regular Battle Sisters squad to take two heavy, two special, or one of each instead of a special or a special and a heavy. Any remarks?
I went with 1 special at 5 models, 1 special or heavy at 10, another special at 15 and another special or heavy at 20.
I like the concept of rewarding people for playing a unit of over ten models, may appropriate something like this.
Also considering allowing two models in a regular Battle Sisters squad to take two heavy, two special, or one of each instead of a special or a special and a heavy. Any remarks?
Well I tend to take only Melta guns or Flamers so I would like it
Is there any fluffy reason the Sisters would use larger squads especially given they tend to operate using 10 person vehicles??
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/23 14:24:09
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
Also considering allowing two models in a regular Battle Sisters squad to take two heavy, two special, or one of each instead of a special or a special and a heavy. Any remarks?
Well I tend to take only Melta guns or Flamers so I would like it
Is there any fluffy reason the Sisters would use larger squads especially given they tend to operate using 10 person vehicles??
Any fluffy reason why they wouldn't?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also BSS have been able to take up to 20 models as far back as at least C:WH, so I'd say it's fluffy.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/23 14:30:17
