prankster wrote: I do feel that those of us who 'despise' RH will be the last to get an invite.
I'm a little surprised no one has let the actual link slip yet, given we're over a third of the way through the 72 hour release window and could expect ~1000 people to have been given access.
When asked to not give something away because it could have an adverse effect on everyone's experience down the line, I'll do as asked. I imagine by the end of the weekend everyone will have invites.
The PM closes on the 15th of June, so there's a few weeks to allow people the flexibility to manage their pledge without feeling rushed.
prankster wrote: I do feel that those of us who 'despise' RH will be the last to get an invite.
I'm a little surprised no one has let the actual link slip yet, given we're over a third of the way through the 72 hour release window and could expect ~1000 people to have been given access.
I'd rather not see it "leak" and "get out" because that could create a backlash that could, well.. Set things back even further I suppose.
prankster wrote: I do feel that those of us who 'despise' RH will be the last to get an invite.
I'm a little surprised no one has let the actual link slip yet, given we're over a third of the way through the 72 hour release window and could expect ~1000 people to have been given access.
If so, you'd think the RH apologists would be among the first.
Well, unless they're hosting it on an old 486 hanging off a dialup line, I can't see how sending out the details to everyone would have a detrimental impact on people trying to use it.
The only impact it could have, is if RH were inundated with questions that they had to sort out answers to. Staggering the release like this might appear to mitigate that, but then so would putting out a detailed and helpful update.
I got mine and have no idea what to do. I really would rather have resin that I can imperialize, but I assume I won't have time to do that, with kids, job and the house, that I'm going to get within these next 20 years.
Decisions, decisions. I suppose that's also a way to sell the pledge, just sell the webstore credentials..
Also it seems I have 420$ store credit, I don't even remember. That means so much crap, oh dear.
The PM closes on the 15th of June, so there's a few weeks to allow people the flexibility to manage their pledge without feeling rushed.
I wonder if all the sculpts will be finalised by the 15th of june. Since they told us that our choices will not be locked in until they are.
I wonder if they'll also have decided which models will be in which wave (or even how many waves there'll be). Since without this information, I cannot complete the pledge manager.
I got a link but I haven't had the chance to do anything. I need to work up an IG list and a SoB list before I can know what to get and what to ignore.
Aye it was just slow tbh... but nothing too bad, Its got one of those systems where you put it in the basket and it then takes you back to that figure, so you need to click on the faction list again, have it load, pick the next one.. rinse and repeat. For the amount I had to select.. it took some time.
BrookM: remember you weren't one of those turn coats who could badmouth them in both languages. There is a special place in hell for me. Mold slippage and flash, here I come!
The PM closes on the 15th of June, so there's a few weeks to allow people the flexibility to manage their pledge without feeling rushed.
I wonder if all the sculpts will be finalised by the 15th of june. Since they told us that our choices will not be locked in until they are.
I wonder if they'll also have decided which models will be in which wave (or even how many waves there'll be). Since without this information, I cannot complete the pledge manager.
Here's the thing, their statements during the campaign (which I quoted above) are material. There is no wiggle room in "your choices will NOT be locked-in. You will make your final choices once the sculpts are finalised[sic]."
Not having the pledge manager yet, I can't say whether they are meeting this requirement or not, but failing to do so would be a) ethically and legally problematic, and b) par for the course, in all honesty.
That said, the biggest problem I foresee is having people add their free items themselves. The amount of work they are inviting upon themselves with that is simply mind-blowing. People not realizing they needed to do so, people not realizing which wave what comes in, people attempting to get credit for items and tying up the chat line... another innovation really.
Still no email or PM here. I pledged via their website, so I'll probably be one of the last. Then it's a matter of looking at four different items that were pushed back a year from their alleged release date and deciding which is least likely to suffer from crippling damage caused by idiotic posing.
The PM closes on the 15th of June, so there's a few weeks to allow people the flexibility to manage their pledge without feeling rushed.
I wonder if all the sculpts will be finalised by the 15th of june. Since they told us that our choices will not be locked in until they are.
I wonder if they'll also have decided which models will be in which wave (or even how many waves there'll be). Since without this information, I cannot complete the pledge manager.
Here's the thing, their statements during the campaign (which I quoted above) are material. There is no wiggle room in "your choices will NOT be locked-in. You will make your final choices once the sculpts are finalised[sic]."
Not having the pledge manager yet, I can't say whether they are meeting this requirement or not, but failing to do so would be a) ethically and legally problematic, and b) par for the course, in all honesty.
That said, the biggest problem I foresee is having people add their free items themselves. The amount of work they are inviting upon themselves with that is simply mind-blowing. People not realizing they needed to do so, people not realizing which wave what comes in, people attempting to get credit for items and tying up the chat line... another innovation really.
Well, I just asked them about this. Although I do not expect any answer on my "snarky remark", that does not appreciate the genius of the wave shipping strategy.
Mathieu Raymond wrote: BrookM: remember you weren't one of those turn coats who could badmouth them in both languages. There is a special place in hell for me. Mold slippage and flash, here I come!
...as soon as I get the PM invite.
Any minute now.
I guess that puts you right at the bottom with the other malcontents I suppose.
Yes, because nothing soothes the masses like having to figure that one out on your own, with no obvious clue about who gets invited when.
...or a three sentence update. 1-We're opening it. 2-It's going to be staggered invite so as not to overload it. 3-Everyone should be invited by date X.
Maybe the order is based on how much you pledged? I dunno, it's kickstarter. I have only backed one project that finished even remotely close to when they said they would (a guy making titanium guitar picks, which, by the way are awesome).
I don't think there's anything wrong with these guys, that isn't wrong with the entire crowdfunding movement. You have a bunch of idea people without a great deal of project planning experience. They now have a medium to put forth their ideas and get their capital, without going through the rigorous scrutiny that would accompany a traditional loan process. Of course there are delays, and hiccups, and miscommunications.
And, if the ideas seem cool, maybe it's worth it. I haven't seen a kickstarter project completely disappear yet, or been unhappy with any of the eventual results, regardless of how long it's taken to get them.
I got my notice via email. I'm not sure if that's a facet of kickstarter emailing me the PM, or them emailing me directly, and I already deleted it, so I can't easily check, sorry.
Just got mine through also. Not terribly happy about having to spend my $300 based predominately on artwork and renders which may yet be, or may have been, or may not be at all, altered.
Beware.. since you have to "reset" your password.. take a good look into your Spamfolder afterwards.
What a junky design...
Adding all the freebies one at a time is HORRIBLE. Like someone else had already reported... after you add an item, an annoying box pops up you have to close again... moving your screens position back to the very top of the shop.
That is soooo stupidly designed... I'm not surprised at all.
There are so many things they could've have done better besides this.
If I browse through the catalogue, I'd like to see how many of the shown Items I already have put into my cart. The preview pictures insides each item's entry kind of wobble around when you hover over them.
Have got mine too.....still trying to find the amazing-ness that they've obviously built into this as promised. All Ive found so far is a slightly clunky web-store....surely there must be more hidden wonders to access.....
The best way I found to handle that was open each item in it's own tab, then just cycle through adding them each. Not massively elegant but seems to be a 'feature' of their chosen shop.
With regards to the images, I took advantage of the live chat to ask about extra images (specifically of the extras for the JB troopers / command) and was told that they should be up in the next few days. (Confirmed as before the 15th of June ) So there could be more images coming for other things.
Either way, I'm holding fire with mine until I've sorted out the home-drop shipping stuff.
Yeah got mine now, yikes it's not the best system is it, especially having to add the freebies separately 'If you don't add them, you can't get them...' Also more than a little annoyed by the 'locked in by June 15th' line, so much for seeing everything before we have to choose.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
prankster wrote: The best way I found to handle that was open each item in it's own tab, then just cycle through adding them each. Not massively elegant but seems to be a 'feature' of their chosen shop.
With regards to the images, I took advantage of the live chat to ask about extra images (specifically of the extras for the JB troopers / command) and was told that they should be up in the next few days. (Confirmed as before the 15th of June ) So there could be more images coming for other things.
Either way, I'm holding fire with mine until I've sorted out the home-drop shipping stuff.
Oh and it seem's they've picked up on that suggestion somehow as now the page itself is recommending that you do that.
Edit: Oh and don't forget Drusilla is in a separate category for some reason if you qualify for her don't forget to add her too.
RoninXiC wrote: Beware.. since you have to "reset" your password.. take a good look into your Spamfolder afterwards.
What a junky design...
Adding all the freebies one at a time is HORRIBLE. Like someone else had already reported... after you add an item, an annoying box pops up you have to close again... moving your screens position back to the very top of the shop.
That is soooo stupidly designed... I'm not surprised at all.
There are so many things they could've have done better besides this.
If I browse through the catalogue, I'd like to see how many of the shown Items I already have put into my cart. The preview pictures insides each item's entry kind of wobble around when you hover over them.
This is pretty much what I had typed out yesterday after a rough 10 minutes using the manager.
I think everyone that was clamoring for their invites will be disappointed to know they aren't missing out on much.
I woner how long it'll take for the ones who (like me) pledged later on via PayPal (living in Belgium affects my judgement ). I reckon we could probably win the longest wait list. Still sort of looking forwards somewhat to having the mini's in hand but the talk about the pledge manager makes me dread filling it out.
Good thing is that by the time I do get anything, the backlog of unpainted stuff will be gone, so they are providing a valuable service by being overdue with everything
Gertjan wrote: I woner how long it'll take for the ones who (like me) pledged later on via PayPal (living in Belgium affects my judgement ). I reckon we could probably win the longest wait list. Still sort of looking forwards somewhat to having the mini's in hand but the talk about the pledge manager makes me dread filling it out.
Good thing is that by the time I do get anything, the backlog of unpainted stuff will be gone, so they are providing a valuable service by being overdue with everything
Gertjan wrote: I woner how long it'll take for the ones who (like me) pledged later on via PayPal (living in Belgium affects my judgement ). I reckon we could probably win the longest wait list. Still sort of looking forwards somewhat to having the mini's in hand but the talk about the pledge manager makes me dread filling it out.
In all honesty, the pledge manager isn't that bad. It is slow and a little clunky, but that mostly seems to be down to the shop software that they decided to use than any specific design intent. There's an annoying full screen popup when you add anything to your cart that refreshes the page you're on when you click continue shopping. That is, apparently, built into the software as a 'feature' and they're unable to turn it off.
The only thing that is poor, in my opinion, is the way that you have to go through and add all of the freebies individually if you want them. Given that there's no substitutions they could have also added a single item that covered all of the freebies so you could add them together. As I can't see anyone really choosing not to take a free miniature when it's offered.
Their live chat is usable, though if you have a couple of tabs open you see their replies in all of them but your comments only appear on the tab you typed them on. Though Jinx did admit to handling four other chats at the same time as mine earlier this evening,
As for getting access, it probably depends on how busy they are with live chat and email following this more recent wave of invites. The sooner things settle down the sooner they'll send the next batch.
prankster wrote: I do feel that those of us who 'despise' RH will be the last to get an invite.
I'm a little surprised no one has let the actual link slip yet, given we're over a third of the way through the 72 hour release window and could expect ~1000 people to have been given access.
When asked to not give something away because it could have an adverse effect on everyone's experience down the line, I'll do as asked. I imagine by the end of the weekend everyone will have invites.
The PM closes on the 15th of June, so there's a few weeks to allow people the flexibility to manage their pledge without feeling rushed.
~iPaint
So after a 6 month + delay and endless fething around, their pledge manager will feature lots of concept art and only be open for two weeks? My god these people are fething stupid.
So invite, simple enough. Got everything from my original selections picked out, now I just need to waffle for a bit if I want to add any troops or not. I'm not doing a full army by any extent, but two ten girl squads (one heavy and one light, each made of a command box and a "standard" box) would give me a ton of bits and modeling options to play with. Letting me make an elite squad of troopers, or a "company of heroines" so to speak, really make them all individuals as I'm not using these for a game any more... at present any way.
I was going to get a ton of troops with this, make some veterans squads, etc... But in the time between my order and now, I've lost most interest in 40k, and so I went with a ton of the character models, just to have something to paint.
I'm going to use the IE nurse as an Alt McMourning for Malifaux, but who knows if I'll still be playing Ressers by the time I get her?
Before anyone gets locked into troop boxes, I feel it incumbent on me to point out that Dreamforge Games has finally put out the renders of their plastic female trooper kit, the Black Widow.
While they may not have the "dynamic pose" (i.e., oddly pigeon toed stance) of the RH troopers, the Widows have been made to be interchangeable with the male kits with regards to weapons and arms, so there is a truly astonishing wealth of options available. They will not be available until Q3 of this year (which is the same as for RH?), they will presumably be priced at the same level as the 10-man Stormtrooper kit (about $22 for ten).
Are the Dreamforge gals going to sell lots of either just heads or just weapons?
If the weapons are available on their own that might solve some of the logistics problems with the troops boxes.
Those bodies are just atrocious though.
EDIT: Followed the link. While the 'regular' troops still look horrible, the heavy troops (the not-terminators) are freaking amazing! I wish I had gotten in on that before the KS was over.
In other news, I got the invite finally! Now Jimsolo is the popular one...
Unfortunately, I'm still waiting to hear back from A) my Drop Ship retailer, since I think I might have asked HIM to pick me up a couple boxes with his pledge and I don't want to double up if I did, and B) my commission painter contact, since I don't know what medium he'd prefer to work with for the characters.
Plus, if I wait till the 13th to order, I'll have $80 extra to add at the last minute!
Went through the PM, but there are far too many figures without sculpts or even renders for me to even consider locking in all of my choices.
If there are not a huge amount of new renders/sculpts shown by the 15th, I will be holding them to their render/sculpt promise and not locking in my pledge by the 15th.
They cannot show us renders for the later sculpts, because they are only 80% done.
Take another good look at the first Jetgirls pictures (the one with just the Silhouettes. Compare that with the Art and afterthat with the finalized renders.
Sure, they are still girls with jetpacks... but the style has changed over and over again. Just look at the jetpacks themselves, their curves, the machineguns etc.
Just got mine as well and put in the order for Wolfenstein, who is as of yet still represented by the concept art, this will be most exciting to see how she turns out model-wise.
Also, it just occurred to me that we are beta-testing their future on-line store.
Well, they indicated that they were working on the renders for all the minis still lacking them. Of course, like the immediate next post was dude leaking the PM site. Sigh.
Seriously hoping that doesn't throw a monkey wrench in the works.
Also, it just occurred to me that we are beta-testing their future on-line store.
Jeez, I hope not. As a store it leaves a LOT to be desired.
From the KS comments:
Creator Loud'n Raging 28 minutes ago
Re: "I would appreciate being able to see renders on all the models".
After much discussion, I'm happy to say that we think we’ll be able to do that by changing the date of the Pledge Manager close.
But, it's a trade-off for the backers:
We can push out the close of the Pledge Manager by 2-3 weeks and include the missing renders, but that will mean pushing out the date that we start shipping accordingly.
Does that work for you?
The KS comments section, much wow, such unified response for delivery. I don't want to say I "like" what I see, but finally, more people are getting fed up with the long wait and the bs.
Will be interesting to see what happens now. Will we get wave one on time (When is it to drop again?) and will the second wave still be on schedule sometime September this year (IIRC?), oh boy.
BrookM wrote: The KS comments section, much wow, such unified response for delivery. I don't want to say I "like" what I see, but finally, more people are getting fed up with the long wait and the bs.
Are we reading the same comments section? As of right now, I see 5 votes for 'wait' and 6 for 'don't.' I'm not sure how unified that is.
I have been picking through the updates in order to see just how clear previous representations were regarding final elements and the pledge manager, and it is pretty damning. Below you will see that they have fairly clearly represented that the pledge manager was being held up in order to have finished sculpts, and that they would attempt to accommodate later waves by having the PM remain open. Please note that while I have a few updates quoted below, virtually every update that has addressed the issue of the PM has elucidated a similar point in a similar fashion.
Update 57, July 5, 2013 (the famous never show renders again update),
Will you be seeing more renders?
I think the best way to answer that is to share a conversation we had on Facebook a couple of days ago:
Question: “Dunno if this has been answered - You say you will email people once the KS is over asking for what models they want to spend their pledge on - will we get to see all the models in 3d sculpt/3d print or even in resin/metal cast BEFORE choosing?
I ask because with several of the concepts its hard to visualize the end product.”
Asharah Raging: “Well, production will happen over several months, so it is unlikely that all the models will be available to be shown in 3D or cast before the survey is sent...”
Question: “So we will have to spend our pledge based on the concept sketches for some of the characters/troops/mechs etc? Just asking because I know I, personally, am on the fence about several heroines and the mecha until I see how they look in 3D. After the unveil of the Kurg heavy troops, too, there was a lot of mixed opinion on the transition from concept to sculpt. People will be pretty hacked off if they spend their pledge on a concept then the print is subtly different to the point they don't like it”
Asharah Raging: “I'm not sure what to tell you. Compared to most other companies, our sculpts are very very very close to the concepts. But there will always be subtle changes to make sure that the models are castable and not too fragile. And please remember that we showed the models of the Troops BEFORE THEY WERE FINISHED. We will make sure NEVER to do that again. We did that mainly because of scale issues on which we wanted people's feedback. This means that these renders were shown mostly to help us get a better feel for what the backers were looking for in terms of proportions and scale, and some details were clearly stated to be unfinished. We were VERY clear about that, but nevertheless, many people did not bother to read the comments, drew many mistaken conclusions about these images, and shared them with everyone.
To be able to produce such a large quantity of sculpt at the same time, we have a very specific workflow.
One of its particularities is that we do not develop each sculpt individually and one after the other.
Instead, we work on large sections of the product range all at once.
So, when we write that “80% of the sculpting process is done”, it means precisely that: 80% of the sculpting work that is required to send the minis to 3D printing is done.
It does not mean that 80% of the sculpts are done. One person put it this way: "100% of the minis are 80% ready”, and that's a good way to summarise it.
As we already explained in this update on 'One-Shot Blondie, from concept to 3D print', we revise a sculpt MANY times before we send it to print. This is what ENSURES the quality of the Raging Heroes sculpts.
In a project like the TGG Kickstarter, it is also crucial that we take the time to review and compare all the sculpts against each other before we finalize them to guarantee the overall integrity and continuity of the range.
"So yes, we could show you some sculpts that are 80% done. But our previous experience has confirmed to us that this is not the right thing to do. We've already shared the Heroine 3D renders that we feel are very representative of what the 3 armies will look like.
If you don't feel confident about the final product, then I can certainly understand that, and you should perhaps not take the chance to be unhappy down the road. I know that most people that have seen our work trust us to get it right, and most of the time, they actually often find the actual casts BETTER than what they had anticipated from the final 3D renders!
And also, sometimes, there may be a few concepts that we think we can actually improve upon when we sculpt them, for example, Yoko and Dr von X....
But again, that is entirely up to you and we certainly won't hold it against you if you don't want to pledge for certain things.
I hope that helps...”
Reply: “Yes and no. What I'd ask then is if people can change their pledge spending or only spend a little of it at a time. What I mean by that is could someone for example, when the first survey comes out asking what you spend your pledge on, only tell you which of the FIRST WAVE models they want, and assign the rest later?”
Asharah Raging: "Sure!" That's a very fair request and we will be working to implement a pledge management that will allow this.
If you are already familiar with Raging Heroes, you know that every time we have a new release, we put the 3D renders on our blog and ask people for feedback. Every time, this allows us to correct minor details so that everyone is happiest with the sculpt.
We will of course work in the same manner for the TGG minis. Our goal is not to trap you with minis you wouldn't like, but on the contrary, to bring you the best possible characters and troops. (And it's a lot saner, in our opinion, to do that outside of the Kickstarter madness.) So, please be assured that you'll be able to voice your comments and concerns at that stage, and that we will listen to them.
Loud'n Raging wrote:@R Naysmith: " ... we won't even get to see renders before they send out the surveys which will lock-in our choices..."
Just want you to know that your choices will NOT be locked-in. You will make your final choices once the sculpts are finalised. As mentioned earlier, we never want our pledgers and future customers unhappy with our minis.
@david brooks: no, that's unlikely.
We are still considering several options here, so it means that you can take some time to refine your choices, talk it over with your friends and other fellow backers, in the Comments section or on our Facebook pages (on Asharah Raging's private page or on Raging Heroes' public Page).
There will definitely be a Pledge Manager, and you will be able to up their pledge amount if you so do wish, using Paypal/Credit Card. At that time, you will also be able to pay for the Shipping you may have forgotten to add, as we see that quite a few of you forgot that.
Also, we will be trying to find a way for you to be able to have flexibility in how you spend your pledge, as the several waves of releases are revealed. This means that we will probably need you to complete a first survey that will help us to assess what miniatures have the most success in order to plan our production accordingly, but while still leaving room for you to tweak your choices as the production advances. Again, please keep in mind that this is our wish: this is what we would LIKE to do, but we don't know if it will be possible to implement and manage it that way.
In the next coming days, we will send you the Kickstarter survey. It will be very simple to make sure that you don't have agonize over what minis you need to choose and be able to answer us quickly. It will simply ask you for your detailed contact information. It will also ask you if you have chosen the 3D sculpting and art direction webinar, which is included in the Connoisseur Pledge and Add-on.
Regarding the Pledge Manager, well, many backers told us they wanted to see the first wave of minis before making their formal selection. So we focused on getting that first wave ready before putting the Pledge Manager together, which should be soon now. As for us, the quantities needed for each mini will in the end have little impact on production, so there is no need for us to know in advance how many of each is required: what takes a lot of time is sculpting and mould-making, but after that, casting is fairly swift.
Well, I just filled in my pledge manager. All four of the squads I was looking at had two of the running poses I didn't want, so I went with the Jailbird command.
I pledged this token amount to see if Raging Heroes was worth buying from in the future, and I've already got my answer. At this stage, if you told me "Boutique" was French for "gakky company", I'd probably believe you.
They were there for pre-order, figured why not. Never wanted any of the troop boxes and most of the Iron Empire Heroines are very similar, so I don't want them all.
I see nepharaya has gone back to concept art even though they had renders up for the start of the kickstarter. Guess I was right when I suggested they had made an unworkable sculpt. Reading the comments above about refining sculpts until they are manufacturable obviously goes to show their sculptors don't really know how to sculpt with manufacture in mind and they have to compromise their aesthetic to achieve it.
BrookM wrote: The KS comments section, much wow, such unified response for delivery. I don't want to say I "like" what I see, but finally, more people are getting fed up with the long wait and the bs.
Are we reading the same comments section? As of right now, I see 5 votes for 'wait' and 6 for 'don't.' I'm not sure how unified that is.
Maybe like RH I also have tunnel vision when it comes to the comments section.
Looked through some more minis in their store.
They have not even added all of the pictures they have. The IE heavy trooper command entry has a single picture... they have definately shown us more.
Does make you wonder what kind of face they're making while typing those updates about how great the pledge manager was going to be and how they were blown away by this amazing piece of software.
Mathieu Raymond wrote: BrookM... if we took out the posts where you have those gif... how low would your post count dip, do you reckon?
Gifs and other posts of "nefarious intent" in this thread make up for 80% of my posts in this thread. The rest is still safe and sound in thoseDCM threads.
My friend pledged on this and was going nuts over the pledge manager. He offered me the chance to jump in for some troopers but the process makes me shudder. :-P
UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote: I see nepharaya has gone back to concept art even though they had renders up for the start of the kickstarter. Guess I was right when I suggested they had made an unworkable sculpt. Reading the comments above about refining sculpts until they are manufacturable obviously goes to show their sculptors don't really know how to sculpt with manufacture in mind and they have to compromise their aesthetic to achieve it.
Example of the above problem and the problem of not having renders done before the PM closes:
Looking at the Soul Weavers, the differences between the concept art and the renders are considerable: For Sashenka, the staff is far clunkier and lacks the great shaft detail of the concept. The various cables/hoses have lost all of their detail. The knee guard is too big and lacks detail and the hat is different. There are other differences, but just the ones listed are enough to change the feel of the figure especially the staff. Is it still a cool figure? Yes. Is it as cool as the concept? Not really. Would I have bought a figure closer to the concept? Certainly. Will I buy this figure? Questionable. Multiply this issue times all the figures that we have not seen renders of, much less sculpts, and buying sight unseen becomes a real problem, especially when we were promised renders and sculpts for everything before the PM closed.
So I made some changes, based on renders in particular,
Ivanka Kruganova
Commander Elektra
One Shot Blondie
Karmina Noxx
Arushka
Snipers
General Ilsa Wolfenstein
Nepharya (Necro Priestess)
Werewolves (Zagrath and Sheera)
To this list:
Ivanka Kruganova
Commander Elektra
One Shot Blondie
Karmina Noxx
Volga Potemkine
Snipers
General Ilsa Wolfenstein
Nepharya (Necro Priestess)
Werewolves (Zagrath and Vankaree)
Not many changes, but I dropped a soul weaver for an Army Standard.
My theory is this gives me my snipers and sniper hero, and with the KST freebies I have quite the command squad with Elektra, Volga, Natasha and Karoline, all backed up by two of the Wereshewolves lead by Svetlana. Not a bad little squad all told.
So that leads into the waffling. I'm considering dropping Ivanka for another heroine model, there's some other cool minis in the KST range, and ones I think will be cool could turn out completely differently. I'm also considering those two squads of troops.
Well, I bit the bullet, I paid for personal wave shipping because I'm operating under the assumption that a)this should normally mean that I should get my first wave faster than the rest of the plebes and b)I'll be suitably indignant when that fails to materialize and delays are piled onto more delays because the delays caused delays in the delays.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I refrained from any of the super unlocks and later stuff, thinking this means I'll be done by wave 2.
Who wants to bet I'm wrong and I'll regret the decision?
Mathieu Raymond wrote:Who wants to bet I'm wrong and I'll regret the decision?
You get out of life what you put in. If you put in negativity, you'll end up disappointed, regardless the reason. Like I said before, I have only ever seen one kickstarter project I got involved with finish on schedule. I'm not concerned. I've got other Raging Heroes models, they've been consistently high quality, and I really just don't understand the apprehension surrounding this. They're not going anywhere, you'll get your models, and you'll be happy with them when you do. So stop sweating the small stuff.
Mate, aside from all of the other bs around this campaign, and all of the bs they've been spewing for the last year and a half, they've stated that they're locking down the pledge manager before showing all of the renders. Which is something they've repeatedly said they would not do. Unless they change their mind, Which they may or may not do.
Saying that you don't get the apprehension is disingenious at best, and telling people to "stop sweating the small stuff" when people have hundreds of dollars on this is insulting. You don't care, you're happy. good for you. Don't tell others how they should feel or what they should "sweat".
Mathieu Raymond wrote:Who wants to bet I'm wrong and I'll regret the decision?
You get out of life what you put in. If you put in negativity, you'll end up disappointed, regardless the reason. Like I said before, I have only ever seen one kickstarter project I got involved with finish on schedule. I'm not concerned. I've got other Raging Heroes models, they've been consistently high quality, and I really just don't understand the apprehension surrounding this. They're not going anywhere, you'll get your models, and you'll be happy with them when you do. So stop sweating the small stuff.
Anyone want to know how many of the kickstarters in my sig finished on schedule or are planned to finish on time. Here's a hint, I only need one hand to count.
It's absolutely the point. If you're into kickstarter, you know that you're going to have delays. You know that you're going to have periods without updates. You know that plans change, and what was said at one point may actually need to be revised later.
That's because these are all part of the design process, and people using kickstarter to fund their ideas are rarely experienced project managers. Delays and revisions are part of the system, and if you can't understand that, you probably shouldn't be kickstarting things, you should wait and buy finished products.
Yes, I get it, people put a lot of money into this. I think my final order, including some late add-ons during the pledge manager, topped a grand. I put my money out there because I'd previously purchased RH models, and was (and still am) confident in their vision and what their finished product will look like. If you put money out there without that trust, I don't know what to say about your judgement.
Bottom line, they're not acting any different than any other company on kickstarter that I've been involved with, and I've backed no small number. Have some faith and some patience and you'll end up with nice models. This isn't worth giving yourself an ulcer over.
Look, Redbeard has a valid point. In the grand scheme of things, it's little restic (wo)men. Although I opted for metal just because it is a known quantity. I checked most of my metal minis and I don't have that much chipping.
But as a consumer, there is still a choice to be made. If there is a critical mass of people expressing themselves and repeat creators learn from their first go, excellent. If starry-eyed idealists continue doing this with little to no clue about process, and production, and conception and they keep pushing back, but a lower and lower number of backers jump in, the market will speak. With its invisible hand. I guess the market is mute or something.
Anyway, it's just me. I'm not thinking I represent anyone else. Not event he dude who said he'd buy half my pledge. Let me rant, just a bit. It's good for my panties, and there's other stuff happening I can't control.
Redbeard wrote: It's absolutely the point. If you're into kickstarter, you know that you're going to have delays. You know that you're going to have periods without updates. You know that plans change, and what was said at one point may actually need to be revised later.
That's because these are all part of the design process, and people using kickstarter to fund their ideas are rarely experienced project managers. Delays and revisions are part of the system, and if you can't understand that, you probably shouldn't be kickstarting things, you should wait and buy finished products.
Yes, I get it, people put a lot of money into this. I think my final order, including some late add-ons during the pledge manager, topped a grand. I put my money out there because I'd previously purchased RH models, and was (and still am) confident in their vision and what their finished product will look like. If you put money out there without that trust, I don't know what to say about your judgement.
Bottom line, they're not acting any different than any other company on kickstarter that I've been involved with, and I've backed no small number. Have some faith and some patience and you'll end up with nice models. This isn't worth giving yourself an ulcer over.
With due respect, you seem to be missing precisely what makes this situation different from other kickstarters: these wounds are entirely self-inflicted. The problem is not delay, the problem is not the pledge manager, the problem is not the endless revisions.
The problem is that in almost every case of making a promise or representation, RH has failed to live up to its own obligations. Moreover, RH has consistently and adamantly resisted the constant calls for the one thing that would eliminate their problems: better communication.
Seriously man, everything could be fixed here with more communication. If you don't believe that, I invite you to examine the Dreamforge thread. Mark announces yet another delay, coming up on almost two years (I think). Where are the headhunters, the twitter weaned Jacobins, the punk rock zombies aching for brains over there?
To interpret the problems that RH is facing now as simply an iteration of the same delays and disorganization that plague every kickstarter is to completely misread the situation. The problem isn't they have some new and unique problems, but that they have responded to the same problems everyone has so very poorly.
Offtopic the first: Buzzsaw, am I going crazy or did you used to be a mod? Ever since the baby, I'm forgetting so much crap I feel like I've got the 'Heimer's.
Offtopic the second: Redbeard, do you own the amigurumi beast in your avatar? And would you ever put it into a Fuzzy Heroes game?
Back on topic: I don't really know what else we can do at this point. I'm not above putting in my two cents if I want something from RH, but I'm not holding my breath on my opinion carrying a great deal of weight. And that's fine. It still carries more weight with them than it does with WotC, or White Wolf, or Games Workshop. I'll take some communication and accountability over none whatsoever.
I think that, in the future, I will remember what happened during this campaign and pledge accordingly for future ones. I'll still probably get down on them, though.
Ok... so they're bad at communicating the delays. So what?
The echo-chamber of over-reaction that is this thread has stunned me almost from the very beginning. I made fun of Raging Heroes at the start because everything they do is always delayed (even the launch of the Kickstarter!), so the idea that we're still here, miniatureless, after all this time shouldn't come as a surprise it should be a given. And that's before we even get into the "All Kickstarters are late" phenomena. Tablescapes? Ain't got 'em all yet. Rivetwars? Still waiting. That Mantic wannabe-Necromunda? Only just got the replacements for the missing items, and still don't have the rest.
Someone should copy/paste azazels rant about echo-chambers, KS delays etc from the SWTS thread into this one. It's almost a repeat of the exact same situation
Buzzsaw wrote:
The problem is that in almost every case of making a promise or representation, RH has failed to live up to its own obligations. Moreover, RH has consistently and adamantly resisted the constant calls for the one thing that would eliminate their problems: better communication.
I see what you're saying, I just don't agree with you. I'm not on the dreamforge one, so I can't speak to that. But every kickstarter and indiegogo project I've backed has had people asking for more updates. And most of them don't communicate near as well as they should, but again, I think it's part of the nature of the beast.
Kickstarter is a venue for idea people to get the word out and get some financial support without the rigorous project planning that would be required by a traditional bank loan. It does not surprise me, in the least, that idea people doing kickstarter projects don't have the sort of polished customer service experience that modern consumers come to expect from full-fledged businesses. The ones that do communicate well (as you seem to indicate Dreamforge does) are the exception, not the rule.
I have 12 outstanding kickstarter backings (is that the right term?). Of those 12, I would only say two of them communicate well, and they're both projects from more experienced developers - Tablescapes, from Secret Weapon, and Creature Caster, from Jeremy who ran Ultraforge. They stand out, in my mind, because of how well they do communicate their issues. The others, they're all essentially at the same level as each other, and Raging Heroes is notably better than a couple others.
I think the reason people are pounding on RH is not because they're worse than normal, but because they were so successful, and exceeded their expectations by so much, that it's hard for people to remember that prior to this kickstarter, this was a tiny little operation that had all of 20 sculpts to their name. People think, wow, they made so much money, they must be a big operation. And I can't really see it being justified to hire a full time customer support person. Considering all the other things they need to be doing, responding to every question on a comment thread seems like an unrealistic goal. If those Dreamforge guys manage it, good for them, but it's not a standard I expect any kickstarter to live up to.
Jimsolo wrote:
Offtopic the second: Redbeard, do you own the amigurumi beast in your avatar? And would you ever put it into a Fuzzy Heroes game?
I do, my wife loves to make amigurumi's and she made it for me (and a papa nurgle dice bag that eats and regurgitates the dice). I haven't seen fuzzy heroes in about a decade, are they still going?
I really don't think that's the case Redbeard. I think it's more that people are expecting them to keep their word. I haven't been upset by their communication or lack there of, but when they made specific promises about how things would be handled from a customer support perspective, namely how we're going to get our toy soldiers and select them from the pledge manager (full renders, no lock in, etc) I can see where people are getting upset. It's hard to argue against the folks wanting to string RH up verbally when RH tied the noose and built the scaffold.
Bottom line, they're not acting any different than any other company on kickstarter that I've been involved with, and I've backed no small number. Have some faith and some patience and you'll end up with nice models. This isn't worth giving yourself an ulcer over.
You must have only backed gakky kickstarters in that case, because RH are acting far more poorly, arrogantly and antagonistically towards their backers that most of the ones I've backed. Faith? I know the models will most likely be lovely in the end. Patience? This thread is almost entirely a laugh for me. I'm not raging, I'm laughing.
On the other hand, their current shenanigans with the pledge manager, concept art and renders isn't what I'd call acceptable, even for them. Ulcer? gak, this thread is calm and pretty much good-natured. If you want to take their endless broken promises and bs with a smile and ask for more please, Sir (Monsieur?) then I'm absolutely fine with that, but please don't tell me to be shut up, stop commenting and be happy to eat up their gak with a spoon, or that none of our concerns are relevant because you're happy with the status quo - because that's actually when I become less calm.
The main reason people pile on them is because how they keep making these comments, these grand proclamations, these sweeping statements and then fail to deliver on them by weeks or months, completely alter the deal by ignoring previous promises or outright lie to us. But I suppose that’s okay, because the minis will be worth it? Or is it okay because it is run as a Kickstarter, I suppose those have an automatic built-in excuse for gak like this eh?
This here right now is them forcing people to choose and get it over with. I'm pretty sure that a lot of backers who pledged a great deal of money and still don't know what to pledge because of lacking renders / actual models love to hear from the Raging stalwarts that they shouldn't sweat it, that they should just shut up and pick from the concept art because the minis will be worth it yo!
Flying feth, I went with general Wolfenstein, a mini that has as of yet nothing but concept art, it feels like I'm playing Russian roulette with my pledge here.
Sure, they are a small fledgling comapny, sure it's Kickstarter..
But at the end of the day, they're doing business here. They are selling, or rather want to sell, a product. It's not just a bunch of guys sculpting figures for fun to show and give away to their friends, it's a company that seeks to sell something.
Yeah, I get it, a lot of companies on Kickstarter are at fault for delays and poor project planning - but that doesn't mean it's a good thing. What happens after this is done? They got a bunch of money and cannot handle things, what happens later, when the bunch of money is gone, but you still have to make and sell the products? Will they just lay down on their bed of laurels and sell only the miniatures they already have?
A poor company is a poor company. People are criticizing them in hopes they will listen and become better, but they don't seem to want to. In the end the market itself will crush them. They won't be gone, just.. insignificant. After this KS they could have 3000 people running around the internet/their friends promoting the awesome company with awesome sculpts and how everyone should check them out. Now I fear this will not be the case (Not saying for all 3k people, but a lot of them) and RH will keep being an insignificant small company, that a lot of people never heard about.
What happens if due to the delays they run out of money before they ship the Kickstarter rewards? 700k $ is a lot, but they have a lot of staff to pay, materials to pay, molds, most likely a studio, etc...
Not to mention that THEY came up with all the deadlines, THEY came up with all the rules and THEY keep breaking them repeatedly, while offending (check out that famous twitter-weened comment) people who question them about it.
I'm far from being angry in any way. I'm just.. disappointed. I got perhaps too overexcited at the beginning of this KS and they promised so many great things...
I mean, we still don't even know anything about the scale - they were considering different things at start and we still have no clue what they decided..
I think the reason people are pounding on RH is not because they're worse than normal, but because they were so successful, and exceeded their expectations by so much, that it's hard for people to remember that prior to this kickstarter, this was a tiny little operation that had all of 20 sculpts to their name. People think, wow, they made so much money, they must be a big operation. And I can't really see it being justified to hire a full time customer support person. Considering all the other things they need to be doing, responding to every question on a comment thread seems like an unrealistic goal. If those Dreamforge guys manage it, good for them, but it's not a standard I expect any kickstarter to live up to.
I call bullgak on the idea that they exceeded their expectations as much as that. Yes, they made a large amount of money compared to what they were asking for, but the original funding goal was very low for the number of figures that it made available. $12,000 for 43 sculpts doesn't quite seem right (~$280 per sculpt without taking of the KS percentage) especially when they jumped to $5-$10k for strech goals after the elastic goals when they were funded. They artificially lowered the funding target, whether they admit it or not, but whether that was to make the percentage pledged look better or so they could use it as an excuse for delays is something that we'll likely never know. But the very notion that they ridiculously exceeded their expectations is flawed, I'd say they were 10% past their expectations when the project ended. (17 uber stretch sculpts compared to the 150+ they had planned at the start)
BrookM wrote: Flying feth, I went with general Wolfenstein, a mini that has as of yet nothing but concept art, it feels like I'm playing Russian roulette with my pledge here.
Why? The sculpts turn out to look pretty much like the concept art, and have in almost every instance with little variation so far. Why should that model be any different?
Jimsolo wrote:
Offtopic the second: Redbeard, do you own the amigurumi beast in your avatar? And would you ever put it into a Fuzzy Heroes game?
I do, my wife loves to make amigurumi's and she made it for me (and a papa nurgle dice bag that eats and regurgitates the dice). I haven't seen fuzzy heroes in about a decade, are they still going?
Heck yes! They haven't put out anything new in forever, but you can still buy all the rules, and I'm still running it. KISS army forever!
BrookM wrote: Flying feth, I went with general Wolfenstein, a mini that has as of yet nothing but concept art, it feels like I'm playing Russian roulette with my pledge here.
Why? The sculpts turn out to look pretty much like the concept art, and have in almost every instance with little variation so far. Why should that model be any different?
Wolfenstein has a LOT of fiddly details, the kind that are hard to actually put into practice. Models with delicate details (like Shashenka) are the ones that seem to be most vulnerable to being shifted. I don't blame people for wanting renders for Wolfenstein, Nepharya, or the Werewolves. If I were getting any of them, I sure would.
I just confirmed over live chat (yes, they even spoke to *me*) that they aren't sending anything out before June 16th. Even those with personal wave shipping.
I have therefore freed the mailman from the basement.
This leads me to believe that they do indeed have the stock on hand. They might also begin packing before, but no shipping per se.
Buzzsaw wrote:
The problem is that in almost every case of making a promise or representation, RH has failed to live up to its own obligations. Moreover, RH has consistently and adamantly resisted the constant calls for the one thing that would eliminate their problems: better communication.
I see what you're saying, I just don't agree with you. I'm not on the dreamforge one, so I can't speak to that. But every kickstarter and indiegogo project I've backed has had people asking for more updates. And most of them don't communicate near as well as they should, but again, I think it's part of the nature of the beast.
Kickstarter is a venue for idea people to get the word out and get some financial support without the rigorous project planning that would be required by a traditional bank loan. It does not surprise me, in the least, that idea people doing kickstarter projects don't have the sort of polished customer service experience that modern consumers come to expect from full-fledged businesses. The ones that do communicate well (as you seem to indicate Dreamforge does) are the exception, not the rule.
I have 12 outstanding kickstarter backings (is that the right term?). Of those 12, I would only say two of them communicate well, and they're both projects from more experienced developers - Tablescapes, from Secret Weapon, and Creature Caster, from Jeremy who ran Ultraforge. They stand out, in my mind, because of how well they do communicate their issues. The others, they're all essentially at the same level as each other, and Raging Heroes is notably better than a couple others.
I think the reason people are pounding on RH is not because they're worse than normal, but because they were so successful, and exceeded their expectations by so much, that it's hard for people to remember that prior to this kickstarter, this was a tiny little operation that had all of 20 sculpts to their name. People think, wow, they made so much money, they must be a big operation. And I can't really see it being justified to hire a full time customer support person. Considering all the other things they need to be doing, responding to every question on a comment thread seems like an unrealistic goal. If those Dreamforge guys manage it, good for them, but it's not a standard I expect any kickstarter to live up to.
I'll be blunt here, I don't just think you're wrong, but demonstrably wrong. To that end I'll note that you don't actually address any of the specifics of my points about what makes the behavior of RH different from the norm. So let's be very specific with what I would call the most recent important issue, finalized sculpts.
Loud'n Raging wrote:@R Naysmith: " ... we won't even get to see renders before they send out the surveys which will lock-in our choices..."
Just want you to know that your choices will NOT be locked-in. You will make your final choices once the sculpts are finalised[sic]. As mentioned earlier, we never want our pledgers and future customers unhappy with our minis.
Note that they do not saw that pledges will be on Renders, but finalised[sic] sculpts: as elaborated on in Update 57, finalised doesn't mean the initial "80%" renders, it means initial renders have been shown, feedback taken, implemented and no further changes are forthcoming.
Moreover, note that this statement of behavior was during the campaign, not after, and is a material representation made to address a specific concern. To be blunt again, people who are upset about pledging without sculpts are upset based on two things: 1) they are now pledging on concept art, and 2) Raging Heroes specifically told these people that what has happened would not happen.
I must be a purely evil person... but I'm kind of enjoying the backlash in the KS comment section.
This thread lost all sense of positivity months ago, but the comments were, most of the time, quite positive. Not anymore!
I am so, so glad that I pulled my pledge on the final day. If I were one of you guys, I'd be considering a trip to france to have the satisfaction of shouting insults at them. As it is, I blew the money on a crapton of X-Wing stuff...
Buzzsaw wrote:
I'll be blunt here, I don't just think you're wrong, but demonstrably wrong. To that end I'll note that you don't actually address any of the specifics of my points about what makes the behavior of RH different from the norm. So let's be very specific with what I would call the most recent important issue, finalized sculpts.
Loud'n Raging wrote:@R Naysmith: " ... we won't even get to see renders before they send out the surveys which will lock-in our choices..."
Just want you to know that your choices will NOT be locked-in. You will make your final choices once the sculpts are finalised[sic]. As mentioned earlier, we never want our pledgers and future customers unhappy with our minis.
Note that they do not saw that pledges will be on Renders, but finalised[sic] sculpts: as elaborated on in Update 57, finalised doesn't mean the initial "80%" renders, it means initial renders have been shown, feedback taken, implemented and no further changes are forthcoming.
Moreover, note that this statement of behavior was during the campaign, not after, and is a material representation made to address a specific concern. To be blunt again, people who are upset about pledging without sculpts are upset based on two things: 1) they are now pledging on concept art, and 2) Raging Heroes specifically told these people that what has happened would not happen.
Yes, I'm aware of that. And, I still believe this originates not from malice, but from inexperience in dealing with customers, as well as conflicting demands.
I think we can all agree that to get models to the quality level that I've seen in their prior work, and in their renders, it takes some time. They go through a few revisions, they probably have a couple of complete restarts in there.
Then, they have two large vocal groups demanding different things.
Group one wants to get their pledge manager so they can put in orders for stuff that will ship sooner. Group two wants to see renders. And, being an inexperienced company, they tried to promise everything to everyone, only to realize later that this wasn't feasible.
You're right, the worst thing anyone in a PR or Customer Service position can do is make a promise that they then break, and RH did just that. But do you really think this is because they want to piss people off, or do you think that some facet of the original plan (to open up the system, and also to let people wait for renders) ended up proving technically too complex for them? They're sculptors, not webstore designers, and I can totally see how, if faced with a higher cost to have a pledge manager that allowed multiple buys, they backed off of that concept. Yes, they were wrong to have made the promise, and yes, I even understand that people get upset when faced with a broken promise. That doesn't mean that breaking the promise was an unreasonable business decision, and I still think this is par for the kickstarter course.
Honestly, when all is said and done, the thing that most people will take away from this whole campaign isn't these minor hiccups in their process, it's whether or not they like the minis they receive. And, if they launch another kickstarter for a different set of minis, the thing that people will consider before pledging is were the minis good at the end. If they are, they'll be a success, and people will go for their next stuff, even knowing that they're poor communicators and revise their plans along the way. And if the minis are bad, the timeliness of future kickstarters won't matter.
Kind of proving my point, right? I mean, you have these customers saying "talk to us more", so they try to appease the loud squeaky wheels by hiring a guy, only to realize that the money they're paying him is better spent on other tasks. It's not feasible to hire a full time social media coordinator - there's usually just not that much to say, and realistically, they need to be focusing on fulfillment, not on maintaining hype in a group of people who already spent their money.
To be clear, I'm not attempting to apologize for their mistakes. It's obvious that they're making them. I'm just saying, it's kickstarter - you should expect mistakes. If those mistakes are in what they tell you, I'm okay with that. I'm only going to be upset if the mistakes are in the finished products - but I don't see that happening.
Redbeard wrote: You're right, the worst thing anyone in a PR or Customer Service position can do is make a promise that they then break, and RH did just that. But do you really think this is because they want to piss people off, or do you think that some facet of the original plan (to open up the system, and also to let people wait for renders) ended up proving technically too complex for them? They're sculptors, not webstore designers, and I can totally see how, if faced with a higher cost to have a pledge manager that allowed multiple buys, they backed off of that concept. Yes, they were wrong to have made the promise, and yes, I even understand that people get upset when faced with a broken promise. That doesn't mean that breaking the promise was an unreasonable business decision, and I still think this is par for the kickstarter course.
If it was just one instance of a broken promise then things wouldn't be so bad. However, there are a number of them over the course of this project, ranging from little things like the time frame for the next update through to fundamentals such as the issues with the pledge manager.
As for keeping it open, you don't need to have any fancy skills to put out an update (such as the one they said we'd have before the pledge manager went live) saying that anyone wanting wave on figures shipping now needs to pledge for them before the 15th of June and anything after that would fall into wave two for shipping purposes. This gives people wanting wave one items as soon as possible (drop ship / wave ship / entire pledge) to get them sorted whilst also allowing people the chance to see renders for later figures before actually spending money on them.
Kind of proving my point, right? I mean, you have these customers saying "talk to us more", so they try to appease the loud squeaky wheels by hiring a guy, only to realize that the money they're paying him is better spent on other tasks. It's not feasible to hire a full time social media coordinator - there's usually just not that much to say, and realistically, they need to be focusing on fulfillment, not on maintaining hype in a group of people who already spent their money.
Well, they thought about it and did hire the guy. However, they didn't actually trust him enough to work on updates for the project. all he seemed to do was post pictures to facebook that we'd already seen. Of course, this was before they had him collating all of the past updates into a word document so they could show how good they were at communicating due to the number of pages they'd written, not taking into account the fact that ~80% of those pages were waffle and already broken promises.
To be clear, I'm not attempting to apologize for their mistakes. It's obvious that they're making them. I'm just saying, it's kickstarter - you should expect mistakes. If those mistakes are in what they tell you, I'm okay with that. I'm only going to be upset if the mistakes are in the finished products - but I don't see that happening.
Buzzsaw wrote:
I'll be blunt here, I don't just think you're wrong, but demonstrably wrong. To that end I'll note that you don't actually address any of the specifics of my points about what makes the behavior of RH different from the norm. So let's be very specific with what I would call the most recent important issue, finalized sculpts.
Loud'n Raging wrote:@R Naysmith: " ... we won't even get to see renders before they send out the surveys which will lock-in our choices..."
Just want you to know that your choices will NOT be locked-in. You will make your final choices once the sculpts are finalised[sic]. As mentioned earlier, we never want our pledgers and future customers unhappy with our minis.
Note that they do not saw that pledges will be on Renders, but finalised[sic] sculpts: as elaborated on in Update 57, finalised doesn't mean the initial "80%" renders, it means initial renders have been shown, feedback taken, implemented and no further changes are forthcoming.
Moreover, note that this statement of behavior was during the campaign, not after, and is a material representation made to address a specific concern. To be blunt again, people who are upset about pledging without sculpts are upset based on two things: 1) they are now pledging on concept art, and 2) Raging Heroes specifically told these people that what has happened would not happen.
Yes, I'm aware of that. And, I still believe this originates not from malice, but from inexperience in dealing with customers, as well as conflicting demands.
I think we can all agree that to get models to the quality level that I've seen in their prior work, and in their renders, it takes some time. They go through a few revisions, they probably have a couple of complete restarts in there.
Then, they have two large vocal groups demanding different things.
Group one wants to get their pledge manager so they can put in orders for stuff that will ship sooner. Group two wants to see renders. And, being an inexperienced company, they tried to promise everything to everyone, only to realize later that this wasn't feasible.
You're right, the worst thing anyone in a PR or Customer Service position can do is make a promise that they then break, and RH did just that. But do you really think this is because they want to piss people off, or do you think that some facet of the original plan (to open up the system, and also to let people wait for renders) ended up proving technically too complex for them? They're sculptors, not webstore designers, and I can totally see how, if faced with a higher cost to have a pledge manager that allowed multiple buys, they backed off of that concept. Yes, they were wrong to have made the promise, and yes, I even understand that people get upset when faced with a broken promise. That doesn't mean that breaking the promise was an unreasonable business decision, and I still think this is par for the kickstarter course.
Honestly, when all is said and done, the thing that most people will take away from this whole campaign isn't these minor hiccups in their process, it's whether or not they like the minis they receive. And, if they launch another kickstarter for a different set of minis, the thing that people will consider before pledging is were the minis good at the end. If they are, they'll be a success, and people will go for their next stuff, even knowing that they're poor communicators and revise their plans along the way. And if the minis are bad, the timeliness of future kickstarters won't matter.
Kind of proving my point, right? I mean, you have these customers saying "talk to us more", so they try to appease the loud squeaky wheels by hiring a guy, only to realize that the money they're paying him is better spent on other tasks. It's not feasible to hire a full time social media coordinator - there's usually just not that much to say, and realistically, they need to be focusing on fulfillment, not on maintaining hype in a group of people who already spent their money.
To be clear, I'm not attempting to apologize for their mistakes. It's obvious that they're making them. I'm just saying, it's kickstarter - you should expect mistakes. If those mistakes are in what they tell you, I'm okay with that. I'm only going to be upset if the mistakes are in the finished products - but I don't see that happening.
Red, I've got to be honest, I think we're really talking past each other right now. To the degree that looking at my points, I don't even understand how what you are saying is meant to relate to them.
For example, "I still believe this originates not from malice, but from inexperience in dealing with customers, as well as conflicting demands." Okay. Did I say they were acting maliciously? If something I said is liable to that interpretation I disclaim it: I agree with you entirely that Raging Heroes is, first and foremost, utterly incompetent in their communications and business interactions.
Similarly, "You're right, the worst thing anyone in a PR or Customer Service position can do is make a promise that they then break, and RH did just that." I didn't say they "broke a promise", I said that the statement made was "a material representation made to address a specific concern". This is not puffery, not a legally neutral statement: it is a specific course of action that was promised in order to assuage the fears of some backers and induce them to enter into contract. Unilaterally changing such a term is no more appropriate than changing any other term of a contract. For people that were convinced to pledge based on this assurance, RH forcing them to pledge based on anything but what they promised constitutes material breach of contract. I think there is a strong (but not yet conclusive) argument at the moment that Raging Heroes is about to engage in anticipatory repudiation.
All that is to say: it's a big deal. Moreover, under the law, for such people making demands is not just something they should do, but need to do.
"Honestly, when all is said and done, the thing that most people will take away from this whole campaign isn't these minor hiccups in their process, it's whether or not they like the minis they receive." I'm curious what your basis for this is. I don't mean that as an argument, but an inquiry for data. Certainly the negative is true: if the minis end up bad, then RH might as well fold up shop as they will have functionally nothing going for them at that point. Alternatively, I can think of campaigns where good communications between backers and creators allowed a company to weather a non-ideal fulfillment.
Similarly I can think of campaigns that delivered good product after developing a tempestuous relationship with their backers, and... well, let's just say these companies wouldn't mind a do-over.
At the end of the day, in Raging Heroes we have a company that, we both agree, has displayed a tremendous degree of incompetence. They have displayed a consistent inability to actually follow through on their promises, no matter how big or small. They have displayed a remarkable inability to organize their own efforts and products, nor have they shown any ability to utilize the help that has been offered. At this point, basically all anyone can do is try and get off the ride, or cross their fingers and hope against hope that RH manages to actually produce and distribute their figures before the mass of their own missteps crushes the company.
Forgot I backed this thing and at least we have a pledge manager now. But, it's funny: I'm being reminded of star citizen every time they push back a deadline or make the scope of the project larger.
I will continue to hope this thing becomes a reality, unlike SC.
Buzzsaw wrote: Going off the url data, I think that image is from June of last year.
Damn, really? Really thought this is new material, which I think is not enough, why did they put a Blood Vestal their instead of a W40k mini?
The "Now on KickStarter" at the bottom leads me to believe Buzzsaw is correct; no point advertising something that you can't join in on now.
Also the lack of a 40k miniature is undoubtedly to avoid nasty letters from GW Legal. While GW might not have a legal leg to stand on, that'd be a lot of time and energy to fight a complaint and generally not something that any company would really be interested in doing. Just leave out the "problem children" and let other comparison shots do the work by proxy.
Also the lack of a 40k miniature is undoubtedly to avoid nasty letters from GW Legal. While GW might not have a legal leg to stand on, that'd be a lot of time and energy to fight a complaint and generally not something that any company would really be interested in doing. Just leave out the "problem children" and let other comparison shots do the work by proxy.
So which Ork was it that rolls eyes?
I know hating GW is in the season now, but you just shot yourself in the foot.
BrookM wrote: There are still people telling us that it's not all that bad.
And there are still lots of people acting as if this Raging Heroes are guilty of war crimes.
Oh HBMC, I'd missed your ridiculous hyperbole in this thread. Please do continue, because as everyone knows, the best way to defuse negative emotional states is to belittle the people affected by them and dismiss their reasons as petty and insignificant.
Anyway, anyone notice the lovely wee caveat about dropships in the shipping options section of the PM? The one where if at least 3 people don't choose to use the same location you do, they'll retroactively remove that location as an option and, one must assume since the PM says once it's locked it's locked, thus leave you stuck waiting until all the models you've selected are ready before you get anything.
Also the lack of a 40k miniature is undoubtedly to avoid nasty letters from GW Legal. While GW might not have a legal leg to stand on, that'd be a lot of time and energy to fight a complaint and generally not something that any company would really be interested in doing. Just leave out the "problem children" and let other comparison shots do the work by proxy.
So which Ork was it that rolls eyes?
I know hating GW is in the season now, but you just shot yourself in the foot.
My apologies for not going through every single image in the KickStarter and responding to the question posed by WolfStark in regards to a specific image.
However, the idea that GW is overly loose with C&D letters involving their IP is not exactly news nor unwarranted speculation; they can and do frequently send them out whether they could actually win an action or not. A small company, no matter how right, tends to try to avoid dealing with such nonsense. One look at Chapterhouse's legal fees explains why quite readily.
Yodhrin wrote: Anyway, anyone notice the lovely wee caveat about dropships in the shipping options section of the PM? The one where if at least 3 people don't choose to use the same location you do, they'll retroactively remove that location as an option and, one must assume since the PM says once it's locked it's locked, thus leave you stuck waiting until all the models you've selected are ready before you get anything.
I obviously don't have the pledge manager to confirm this, but if so that's...well that's just special. One would hope that if they do retroactively axe a Dropship location they'd let those 1-2 people opt for personal wave if they wanted though. One would hope...
I don't know if it is a deliberate effort on their part, or if they still have no idea how infamous I am in the KS comment section *cough, cough*
But they responded to one of my emails within the hour. Granted, it was for distribution spots in the province, but still, they are making genuine efforts, or are being very magnanimous.
Okay, so no one's broken Godwin's Law just yet, but the size of these girls...
So that pic up above, is that an older pic, for sure? Because if that's the height of the girls, I'll likely go with my backup plan of just getting a couple, rather than getting an entire army.
BrookM wrote: It's a very, very old pic. They did some adjusting which led to a lot of discussion and them swearing to never ever post WIP stuff again.
If worried about the size of the models and not stuck with a massive pledge, go for a platoon. You can always explain a difference in size as the girls being from a different place with different gravity or somesuch.
I threw this together, but so far it's a best-guess given the base sizes, angles of photography, and 3D prints scaling (ie the metal and resin production casts will be the same size as the 3D prints).
BrookM wrote: Going for a whole army, a platoon or just a few?
If worried about the size of the models and not stuck with a massive pledge, go for a platoon. You can always explain a difference in size as the girls being from a different place with different gravity or somesuch.
Platoonish? I'm thinking about adding 10 heavy and 10 regular troopers to my LT pile of heroines.
BrookM wrote: Going for a whole army, a platoon or just a few?
If worried about the size of the models and not stuck with a massive pledge, go for a platoon. You can always explain a difference in size as the girls being from a different place with different gravity or somesuch.
Platoonish? I'm thinking about adding 10 heavy and 10 regular troopers to my LT pile of heroines.
Assuming you like what you see, I'd go for it at that level. It's a comparatively small cost, you will (someday) get some very detailed models and if you later decide you don't like them as much as you thought it's reasonably simple to shift a small lot like that to someone else for what will probably be only a little bit less than it cost you (if you even take a loss).
Very little risk in that, IMO, assuming there's nothing on the horizon that might be of greater interest to you in the meantime.
Someone on this very forum has a quote saying that Space Marines are the right scale, it's the other sculptors who can't be bothered to make other minis fit correctly.
If I were you, Eric, I'd go all heavy or all regular, just so you can field them as Tempestus. Or a group of five heavies (command) and the rest as regular (scions). If you go that route, however, make sure you select N+5 girls to make sure you can field full squads.
BrookM wrote: Going for a whole army, a platoon or just a few?
If worried about the size of the models and not stuck with a massive pledge, go for a platoon. You can always explain a difference in size as the girls being from a different place with different gravity or somesuch.
Platoonish? I'm thinking about adding 10 heavy and 10 regular troopers to my LT pile of heroines.
I have the exact same problem. But about 5 times larger. They were supposed to be mixed into Cadian squads after a little converting and weapon swaps ( Ieven bought like 100 bit lasguns..)
I will never get overexcited at Kickstarter again
On a related note: I like how people are praising the live chat. Of course if the PM wasn't so clunky there would be no need for live chat and them wasting their time on it in the first place.
Mathieu Raymond wrote: Someone on this very forum has a quote saying that Space Marines are the right scale, it's the other sculptors who can't be bothered to make other minis fit correctly.
If I were you, Eric, I'd go all heavy or all regular, just so you can field them as Tempestus. Or a group of five heavies (command) and the rest as regular (scions). If you go that route, however, make sure you select N+5 girls to make sure you can field full squads.
Well that's why I was thinking 10 and 10. I have two full squads that way, and plenty of girls for options if I find a set of Skirmish rules I can adapt easily (Any one interested in working with me on that project, PM me). I'm also considering the jump up to wave shipping... but my main issue there is I'm moving in two months and thus need my new address.
greywulf wrote:So Mathieu, is there a dropship location being set up in Quebec? Montreal?
Nope, not a single dropship in Canada. They will only investigate new locations after the crazyness is done, methinks. So I paid the extra 15$ of peace of mind. I knew Valet was on the verge of giving up about 6 months ago, I was just hoping against hope.
KalashnikovMarine wrote:
Mathieu Raymond wrote: Someone on this very forum has a quote saying that Space Marines are the right scale, it's the other sculptors who can't be bothered to make other minis fit correctly.
If I were you, Eric, I'd go all heavy or all regular, just so you can field them as Tempestus. Or a group of five heavies (command) and the rest as regular (scions). If you go that route, however, make sure you select N+5 girls to make sure you can field full squads.
Well that's why I was thinking 10 and 10. I have two full squads that way, and plenty of girls for options if I find a set of Skirmish rules I can adapt easily (Any one interested in working with me on that project, PM me). I'm also considering the jump up to wave shipping... but my main issue there is I'm moving in two months and thus need my new address.
I... I'm having a hard time understanding this one. You know you're moving, but you don't know where, and it's in 2 months? Plastic (wo)men might have me mildly annoyed, but that kind of situation would have me breaking out in hives, man.
You - Click here to change
Hi, is there any chance for a comparison shot of the finished minis with other companies' minis? I would be especially interested in the troops. I know you showed some WIPs during the campaign a long time ago, but I want to make sure how the finalized versions measure up
Charlie joined the chat
Charlie
Hi
This old picture is pretty good regarding the size of the troops
I'm searching a recent one for you, made by James Wappel
You - Click here to change
That'd be great
(hope the link works)
You - Click here to change
It does
Ok, so the troops follow the same scale?
I remember reading somewhere that they were meant to be a bit smaller than heroines
Charlie
Yes pretty much, they'll be heroic 28mm
Except they are still taller than GW, a little bit and I didn't learn anything new. Ah well, guess some knifing will have to be done.
Still not locking the pledge, just in case there will be more renders near the end, though I assume there won't be. Also, anyone else concerned a little bit with the drop ship terms? Basically, if something goes wrong you are screwed, you cannot even change the dropship
If my customers from the French diaspora are anything to go by, photography is sacrosanct to them and showing a picture that is less than perfect is almost a deadly sin. We might be waiting quite a bit for pictures from them directly.
Mathieu Raymond wrote: Someone on this very forum has a quote saying that Space Marines are the right scale, it's the other sculptors who can't be bothered to make other minis fit correctly.
If I were you, Eric, I'd go all heavy or all regular, just so you can field them as Tempestus. Or a group of five heavies (command) and the rest as regular (scions). If you go that route, however, make sure you select N+5 girls to make sure you can field full squads.
Well that's why I was thinking 10 and 10. I have two full squads that way, and plenty of girls for options if I find a set of Skirmish rules I can adapt easily (Any one interested in working with me on that project, PM me). I'm also considering the jump up to wave shipping... but my main issue there is I'm moving in two months and thus need my new address.
To that end, it might be worth renting a mailbox at the post office or a Mail Boxes Etc. sort of location. I mean, yea there is probably zero chance anything serious will ship in two months, but it might be worth a few month's rent to know where your stuff will be sent to.
Mathieu Raymond wrote: Someone on this very forum has a quote saying that Space Marines are the right scale, it's the other sculptors who can't be bothered to make other minis fit correctly.
If I were you, Eric, I'd go all heavy or all regular, just so you can field them as Tempestus. Or a group of five heavies (command) and the rest as regular (scions). If you go that route, however, make sure you select N+5 girls to make sure you can field full squads.
Well that's why I was thinking 10 and 10. I have two full squads that way, and plenty of girls for options if I find a set of Skirmish rules I can adapt easily (Any one interested in working with me on that project, PM me). I'm also considering the jump up to wave shipping... but my main issue there is I'm moving in two months and thus need my new address.
I... I'm having a hard time understanding this one. You know you're moving, but you don't know where, and it's in 2 months? Plastic (wo)men might have me mildly annoyed, but that kind of situation would have me breaking out in hives, man.
Oh trust me I am freaking the feth out. Which is why I'm focusing on toy soldiers to keep myself from having a heart attack.
Okay - looking at that pic, that's not horribly outscaled. Still might build up the army slower than intended, though. Since I want them as auxiliary troops to my Sisters, I don't actually want them to be larger than the Sisters in question, buuuuut...
Like others have said, if I have a whole army of them, they'll be in scale with EACH OTHER, and that's something.
That'll clock the milleage on them minis, amirite? I know, we have some europeans on the campaign, but a good chunk of them are on the same continent as Ed Fortae, no?
It depends if they outsource production to Troll Forge themselves, it might be good. His alien infestation thingy looks damn good. But it might explain why they've been delayed. If you look at what Defiance was able to pull out of it, though... the prospects are scary.
Personally, I absolutely love trollcast and vouch for it highly.
Ed's own campaign has been held up by his finishing up the final sculpts, not his casting capacity... he has several employees working nearly constantly on casting.
Personally, as a backer of his campaign, I have been glad of this (I thought it was pretty obvious from the pics of casts shown earlier, and was wondering when you guys would figure it out ). Obviously, Raging Heroes brought in a lot of funds and seeing Ed get some of that work is really great.
Trollcast is amazing because you can get nearly hand-cast resin detail for a fraction of the cost. The only issue is making sure the quality control is there and that there are no really thin features, but that is true of almost any resin. I think you all will be very pleased with the results
Also, just for future reference, there are only a few ways to have models made:
1. Hand cast resin. Expensive unless you know someone (Wehrkind does it in his basement, highly recommended!). Quality can be very good but needs to be QC'ed for air bubbles and the like.
2. Trollcast (spincast resin). I actually know of no one else who does this but Ed, it is proprietary or at least a trade secret in many ways. It lets you get volume out of resin casting and makes units (rather than just characters) possible.
3. PVC. Softer details, hard to remove mold lines- just a nightmare if not done well. Can be good for some organics. Lower start-up costs than High Impact Polystyrene (HIPS) which is what is generally know as "hard plastic" or "GW / WGF plastic".
4. HIPS. Mentioned above, the gold standard for a material that is easy to work with, but you have to sculpt with it in mind and can have much fewer undercuts than in hand cast resin. Start up costs and waiting time is also insane (see Dreamforge regarding lead time, although I think the costs are actually much higher than what they raised).
5. Metal... the old faithful!
Those 5 materials are the only ones I know of that are used for miniatures. You can't expect to get cheap troops in hand cast resin... and this is why trollcast is so exciting to me. Just look at my 150 grub tyranids counts-as army in my gallery to see what possibilities this opens up!
It also allows for larger models at a lower cost, too. Anything bulk (a lot of small models or a few big models) can really drop in cost in the material, while still having the benefits of a material that is close to hand-cast resin in many ways. It also has the drawbacks, of course (long thin features are fragile) but I never want to go back to metal after working with it, personally.
Personally, the poor QC is what turns me off of Trollcast. Terrible mold shift and bubbles, and issues with paint not taking to it.
And to add a 6th material type: ABS. Its basically the same as polysytrene, but better for hard edges. You'll find it in stuff like Gundam model kits, and the Robotech Tactics minis.
QC will truly be what makes or breaks Trollcast as a material. My main point of comparison was Wehrkind's hand-cast resin, and good casts from both are Very similar.
The more delicate figures from the RBG Kickstarter are a better comparison than Ed's own aliens sculpts. Here are pics I took of some of those models that I got from someone who sold their pledge to me:
You can zoom in in the gallery (just click on the image). The model on the top right was sculpted insanely thinly and should never have been made in resin, imo (that is a 20mm base next to it, the others are 25mm bases). But the other 4 human models on foot are fantastic, even with Tre's extremely detailed sculpting. And the horses are as well. The horses had some bubbles on the underside, but that was due to being cast as a single piece with all 4 legs intact!
So, I have very, very high hopes for the models that will come out of this campaign. Regarding paint adhering, I had not had an issue with that as I washed all of my trollcast models with powder-based dish soap as Ed recommends.
However, to BrookM, I said I am biased simply because I love the material. Hopefully, when you guys get these models you will feel the same way
Probably wise I think most folks are doing the same, given the level of communication, etc. But if RH is known for one thing, it is beautiful models in the end... it's just handling the process that might be high blood pressure inducing
Also, just checked the RBG kickstarter page and it looks like that campaign is finally finished! And resulted in comments like this when folks got their models:
Tobias Hastrup Petersen on May 9
Got my shipment today. By far the best miniatures in my collection, and I have a lot.
Thank you .
@Bob- Yeah, although the RBG campaign is finished, unfortunately most folks have yet to receive their aliens (the only reason I got mine is because I selected only models that were sculpted in order to meet a painting deadline... this has actually been my strategy with a number of campaigns and I think it's worth doing if your patience is running out).
I definitely am a fan of Trollforged, but tried to list out the facts and reasons for all of my statements above, so hopefully it is of some use. The RBG models were too slender for the project I'd had in mind and I ended up reselling them, but I do have unpainted aliens in the material if anyone would like closeups on it bare, as I think most of the pics in the gallery I linked to above are of primed or painted models.
Kickstarters often seem to be in a "quality over timeliness" state, especially from companies inexperienced with huge projects. I think it's pretty obvious that any process Raging Heroes went with probably wouldn't have met their timeline goal... but what kind of timing having gone with trollcast will result in remains to be seen. I agree with you that it will likely result in some delay, but from what I can tell this is what the employees at Trollforged are casting like crazy (as I think stocks of the already sculpted aliens have already been built up, and fitting in casting of the remaining aliens sculpts will not be hard).
KalashnikovMarine wrote: Blegh... I'm still not sure what to do on my end. Thoughts on picking up more troops guys?
Get the heroes in metal - they have a good track record there. Look into troops once they're at retail. Because Spincast resin is sometimes ....less than 80% perfect.
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Snapdragon wrote: Honestly, on the scale point, has GW ever mentioned why their Space Marines are so tiny?
Their physical stature grew over time in the lore, but the Marine figures remained more or less consistently sized to one another, with just a bit of scale creep as they evolved - rather than reset at +50% scale. Though some marines, such as Terminators have had a pretty obvious scale creep over time. Regular marines are pretty much "locked in" due to backwards and cross-compatability with the "existing range" going right back specifically to 1998's 3rd edition multipart plastics - and even those were size and parts-compatible with the Late-1st Ed/2nd Edition Metal-plastic hybrids and plastickits
Some other ranges (notably Catachans) were sculpted as bulked-out, big guys when they were metals, and then were way over-scaled when they came to plastic. Check out the sizes GW's plastic goblins got to at one point, before they shrunk them back down.
BrookM wrote: I'm going for a single metal model myself, I think I'll wait and see how they turn out before committing to any more in this grand adventure.
That's where I'm at, too. I see a few of these I really want, and if those are good, I'll probably (slowly) build up an entire army of the girls. But not sight-unseen.
KalashnikovMarine wrote: Blegh... I'm still not sure what to do on my end. Thoughts on picking up more troops guys?
Get the heroes in metal - they have a good track record there. Look into troops once they're at retail. Because Spincast resin is sometimes ....less than 80% perfect.
That's the plan for the heroines. Except for the big tech priestess I don't like the idea of assembling her in metal >.>;
RiTides wrote: (Wehrkind does it in his basement, highly recommended!).
Bow chicka wow wow
Did you sell all the RBG stuff? I wouldn't mind checking out a few if you still have them.
You are right though, there are some things that just don't work reliably in resin, as even with supposedly super strong resin it doesn't quite stand up. And that stuff is rather viscous so it makes bubbles more of an issue. However, I have some newer, whisper thin stuff together that I just got working, so you should swing by the basement and compare girth and size.
Back slightly On Topic: There is a N&R thread concerning the possible non-availability of SoB. Wouldn't it be hi-larious if GW put out a mini release of just the basic SoB infantry with all the dressings? Just to pull the rug from under RH a bit?
To be fair, GW need hardly "shoot" it off. They could wrap it in fly paper and hand it to the kid who sweats when he breathes and it would still make it to the public before RH even scrapped their first render.
I'm not sure about that. I think that with their super secret special sauce workflow, RH can scrap renders before they've even completed the concept art for them.
Really? I thought it was a reasonable compromise between 'wait 2-3 weeks for all the renders to be done' and 'just guess based on concept art.' I dunno that much about the process, though.
I'm afraid if they open the folder with the missing renders in to transfer them into the pledge manager they will end up deciding the don't look good enough and so have to start again from scratch
so that said I suspect no extra renders is probably for the best
Well, I've asked twice (via live chat) regarding further images for the troops and been told both times that they should be able to show them off soon. Last Friday they said new few days, and yesterday they said next week.
If they're no up by Wednesday I may have to keep prodding them.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I've never seen a company run so fast and so directly away from social media. It's crazy.
Magc8Ball wrote: Wait. Did someone just make the argument "Games Workshop isn't killing anybody*, so we don't get to complain about them on the Internet"?
Yes. The white is strong with that particular knight.
By getting your order in, I guess you meant you signified your existence to our French Overlordz, nd not that it actually came, right? Right?
S'weird, it took about three or four days for me to receive my order confirmation.
The following day, of course, ex-co-pledge wanted me to put in some stuff for him after all. He was a bit crestfallen that I'd sent it in "even though it was open until June 15th."
I got mine straight awayish, then again, mine is made up of one whopping mini, so the happy hippo shouldn't have had any trouble getting that one through.
BrookM wrote: I got mine straight awayish, then again, mine is made up of one whopping mini, so the happy hippo shouldn't have had any trouble getting that one through.
Mathieu Raymond wrote: By getting your order in, I guess you meant you signified your existence to our French Overlordz, nd not that it actually came, right? Right?"
Yes, sorry - I got an order confirmation. No minis yet.
Sure we will, it will be one extolling the virtues of the software, how helpful the Hippo has been in answering our questions and that the PM will be closed soon.
I do wonder though, does the PM really need that live chat function? I've seen people in the KS comments section being overjoyed with it, but really? I'm really curious here.
I'm guessing some people have had some issues. Whenever I go to actually fill it in, there is one model I may try to ask a question about to see if they can answer it for me. I can see how having a safety net like that might make people feel more secure.
The live chat is only ever useful because of the convoluted mess that is a KS campaign. Once they are into a regular webstore, it's going to be much more straightforward. There will not be any issues of renders, dropships, material availability or release dates.
It'll be Plan A if the current Plan A, the plan wherein I find a place to live in the next two weeks, falls through. At which point I will have a clusterfeth on my hands.
I upgraded my pledge to the Connoisseur box (from an original $15 entry-level one lol), added an Iron Empire Mecha and the Lulus as well, and called it a day. Closed/paid out the extra, now I wait! :3
I don't know, we could be either one really. We could get wall slammed for being so demanding and unreasonable in our requests, or it could be them for being so, well.. You know.
And if, a really, really small if here, the models would turn out to be crap, I'm pretty sure that the overwhelming majority would still give it two thumbs up, then blame us for rushing the artiste into doing things rashly.
BrookM wrote: I don't know, we could be either one really. We could get wall slammed for being so demanding and unreasonable in our requests, or it could be them for being so, well.. You know.
And if, a really, really small if here, the models would turn out to be crap, I'm pretty sure that the overwhelming majority would still give it two thumbs up, then blame us for rushing the artiste into doing things rashly.
Oh good lord. If the models turned out to be crap? I would lose my mind. It would be total-nuclear-meltdown time.
I think it won't be a case of the models being crappy, I think for some the long wait and build up to the eventual moment of having models in hand may let some people down.
I wonder, will we be getting an update today and if so, will it be the obligatory clip show one with a look back at a whole year of running this thing?
If anything, I'd expect the surprise launch of their next kick starter today. Just a little while after the last one started, so there's over a year between projects, of course
It would be interesting to see the reactions to that. Will it be overwhelmingly negative (or at the very least one of "Seriously you guys?"), or will we be told to shut up by the rest of the brigade because these miniatures will be worth the delays and they've learned from their mistakes on running a good KS by now.
I think it depends on what they actually come out with for the next one, whether they focus on a single faction or do the four way split they were talking about at one point. Either way, the first couple of hours will be a frenzy of pledging and stretchy stretch goals.
It's hit and miss with me, a lot of the time I'm decrying Raging Heroes as war criminals who should be put on trial for their crimes against neckbeards (Am I doing it right, Matty?) but sometimes..
Am I the only one who has pledged to *so* many kickstarters as to have become completely unphased by being behind schedule? I've seen other Raging Heroes (non-Kickstarter) miniatures in person before and they were great, I have no reason to believe that they are going to deliver us a crappy product after this. Of course, yknow I'd prefer to have my stuff sooner rather than later, but seriously.
Thing is though, just because it is a KS should not automatically mean that it is okay to be behind on schedule or that we as backers should just deal with it.
Well, the way I see it is that 95% of the kickstarters out there are unrealistically scheduled anyway, especially taking into consideration 'stretch goal bloat' which often times increases the product range to be released by several times (and thus adds a significant amount of time to the release, as most production has to be done in series rather than in parallel due to personnel/facilities limitations), thus far I've pledged precisely one kickstarter - for a poker set - that delivered on time (actually slightly ahead of schedule), and wouldn't you know it they had just barely raised enough funds to meet their goal, no stretch goals whatsoever.
Fun fact : this anime is about the members of a model building club, wich makes this GIF even more relevant. It's also completely insane.
Would you happen to know the name of the show? I got asked by someone else not that long ago and now that it's about model kits, kinda interested as well.
chaos0xomega wrote:Am I the only one who has pledged to *so* many kickstarters as to have become completely unphased by being behind schedule? I've seen other Raging Heroes (non-Kickstarter) miniatures in person before and they were great, I have no reason to believe that they are going to deliver us a crappy product after this. Of course, yknow I'd prefer to have my stuff sooner rather than later, but seriously.
Nope, I've posted the same thing several times. It's just funny to watch everyone obsess over it.
chaos0xomega wrote:Am I the only one who has pledged to *so* many kickstarters as to have become completely unphased by being behind schedule? I've seen other Raging Heroes (non-Kickstarter) miniatures in person before and they were great, I have no reason to believe that they are going to deliver us a crappy product after this. Of course, yknow I'd prefer to have my stuff sooner rather than later, but seriously.
Nope, I've posted the same thing several times. It's just funny to watch everyone obsess over it.
I'm with you.....I have no issues with the delays and how RH has handled this...but this forum is hella funny to read
BrookM wrote: Okay, three minutes in and already they lost me.
I have to admit it's a bit crazy, even by anime standard. ^^'
To go back on topic, are the heroines listed as wave 1 metal only, or metal and spin-cast ? I vaguely remember something about wave 1 spin-cast heroines being done now, while all the others were at the end of the production queue.
Their walls of text are a bit hard to navigate when searching for a specific information.
BrookM wrote: Thing is though, just because it is a KS should not automatically mean that it is okay to be behind on schedule or that we as backers should just deal with it.
I think it is pretty fair to be annoyed when a company makes a big deal about how everything has been carefully planned and is mostly done already at the outset, and then turns out to be really, really late. RH made assurance about the lack of delay due to being almost finished anyway part of the value package they were offering, and it turned out to be way over sold at best. (I would go so far as to say it was 80% lie, but I am cynical.)
It would have been one thing if they had said "Hey, we have done out best to get things rolling ahead of time so there won't be delays, but we can't promise shipping within the year." Or if they had just kept their mouths shut. Instead they claimed they were 80% done (though what exactly they meant was nebulous) and things would be out the door quickly.
Look, just because it's "fair" to be annoyed, doesn't mean you shouldn't have expected it. It's Kickstarter - what's "fair" doesn't apply. Nearly all kickstarters are run by people inexperienced with some aspect of what they're doing, whether it be scale, or outsourcing production, or customer service / PR. Everything you guys keep saying is right - they should have done some things different, they shouldn't have said certain things. Whatever, par for the course. It's Kickstarter.
Adjust your expectations and you'll be a happier person. Or keep shaking your fists at the skies and raise your blood pressure, it matters not to me.
But instead of meeting us halfway and at least admitting they were wrong or overconfident or lied or decided poorly, they just deny it and throw it straight back onto the backers.
At this point, that's all I'd wish for. If they can never admit they are wrong, or are too rigid to change course if they're heading the wrong way... well I have GW for that.
Redbeard wrote: Look, just because it's "fair" to be annoyed, doesn't mean you shouldn't have expected it. It's Kickstarter - what's "fair" doesn't apply.
You might want to reconsider that sentence. It seems that you are saying there is no workable definition of "fair" that is applicable to KS. That seems at odds with what you later state about basically everything being fair because it is a total crap shoot due to inexperience, etc.
I agree that KS tend to be a crap shoot (and so should offer discounts to mitigate the uncertainty because we as backers are basically acting as venture capitalists) but I can't agree that there is no basis for what is appropriate behavior for those running the KickStarters. Things said about the state of things before the KS even launches, such as "these models are 80% done" having nothing to do with the uncertainty of KS projects and everything to do with overstating the progress achieved ahead of time. If nothing else, it is certainly fair to take away "Raging Heroes is not to be trusted at all when it comes to things being done; at best they are talking through their hats." We should not have to expect people to lie to us. Saying models are 80% done is not a prediction that can go awry, it is a statement of fact regarding the current situation. If one is unsure about that fact it should be qualified as such, not stated with surety and sold as assurance.
I want to repeat this for emphasis: We should not have to expect people to lie to us. When we find that they have, we should feel much worse about them, such as deeming them no longer the sorts of people we want to do business with.
Wehrkind wrote:
You might want to reconsider that sentence. It seems that you are saying there is no workable definition of "fair" that is applicable to KS. That seems at odds with what you later state about basically everything being fair because it is a total crap shoot due to inexperience, etc.
I don't follow what you're getting at here. Fair is a silly word. Let's instead talk about expectations. When dealing with a Kickstarter project, your expectation should not be the same as when you're dealing with a large multi-national corporation with thirty or more years of experience. When setting your expectations on a kickstarter project, you should assume that there will be delays, miscommunication, and revisions of plans. If you accept that, you'll probably be okay. If you persist in expecting that the rules that apply to established companies, you will continue to be disappointed.
Is that "fair"? I dunno. It's reality.
I agree that KS tend to be a crap shoot (and so should offer discounts to mitigate the uncertainty because we as backers are basically acting as venture capitalists)
Every project I've backed has had rewards for contributions at lower cost than the planned purchase price of the finished project. In this case, when I went to make my pledge manager picks, I had about $200 in freebies/discounts on my $700 pledge. Yeah, I'd say a 28% discount is worth dealing with the uncertainty here.
but I can't agree that there is no basis for what is appropriate behavior for those running the KickStarters. Things said about the state of things before the KS even launches, such as "these models are 80% done" having nothing to do with the uncertainty of KS projects and everything to do with overstating the progress achieved ahead of time. If nothing else, it is certainly fair to take away "Raging Heroes is not to be trusted at all when it comes to things being done; at best they are talking through their hats." We should not have to expect people to lie to us. Saying models are 80% done is not a prediction that can go awry, it is a statement of fact regarding the current situation. If one is unsure about that fact it should be qualified as such, not stated with surety and sold as assurance.
Maybe those models were? Maybe you're right. I haven't the time nor inclination to try and decipher what they said or what it might have referred to. It's simply not an exercise worth doing.
I want to repeat this for emphasis: We should not have to expect people to lie to us. When we find that they have, we should feel much worse about them, such as deeming them no longer the sorts of people we want to do business with.
If you're certain that you were lied to - really certain that it wasn't a communication error, or something lost in translation, then by all means, contact your credit card company, get your money back and move on with your life. The level of stress that this appears to be causing you is unwarranted for what amounts to some toy soliders.
Actually, that Wappel(I think?) guy finally got to paint a pair of KS minis not that long ago, then again though, this was promised to happen DURING the campaign itself IIRC.
chaos0xomega wrote:Am I the only one who has pledged to *so* many kickstarters as to have become completely unphased by being behind schedule? I've seen other Raging Heroes (non-Kickstarter) miniatures in person before and they were great, I have no reason to believe that they are going to deliver us a crappy product after this. Of course, yknow I'd prefer to have my stuff sooner rather than later, but seriously.
Nope, I've posted the same thing several times. It's just funny to watch everyone obsess over it.
I gotta get me a [Mod] badge so I can troll people without repercussion.
I don't follow what you're getting at here. Fair is a silly word. Let's instead talk about expectations. When dealing with a Kickstarter project, your expectation should not be the same as when you're dealing with a large multi-national corporation with thirty or more years of experience. When setting your expectations on a kickstarter project, you should assume that there will be delays, miscommunication, and revisions of plans. If you accept that, you'll probably be okay. If you persist in expecting that the rules that apply to established companies, you will continue to be disappointed.
Is that "fair"? I dunno. It's reality.
Perhaps I wasn't being clear: I am talking expectations, and I think that it is a fair expectation to expect not to be lied to by anyone asking for money in exchange for something, be they small company or not. Even if it was a simple mistake along the lines of "Wow, we thought we had these models 80% done, but damn, we were REALLY underestimating the revisions necessary!" it is not as though RH has admitted as much. (At least not to my knowledge. Might have missed something or forgotten as it has been a while.) Not to mention the fact that they have made many models in the past, so I would be surprised that they didn't know what 80% done looked like.
Now, some people think a fair expectation is anything north of "spent all the backer's funds and blow and hookers without sharing pictures." That's fine too, but I don't think that more rigorous expectations of behavior for a business is out of line for people in our place, time and culture. Even expecting a large number of mistakes and missteps it is hard to give RH a pass given how they have handled things. Even if they were a friend I was doing a project with I wouldn't be inclined to start another project with them in the future.
BrookM wrote: Thing is though, just because it is a KS should not automatically mean that it is okay to be behind on schedule or that we as backers should just deal with it.
It was clear from day 1 they didn't expect this KS to grow into what it did, the delivery date they posted on the KS was very clearly meant for a much smaller range of miniatures, the second they unlocked more than a dozen or so stretch goals it should have been obvious to all that they would miss their delivery date, and if you weren't willing to wait then you should have backed out at that point.
I think it is pretty fair to be annoyed when a company makes a big deal about how everything has been carefully planned and is mostly done already at the outset, and then turns out to be really, really late. RH made assurance about the lack of delay due to being almost finished anyway part of the value package they were offering, and it turned out to be way over sold at best. (I would go so far as to say it was 80% lie, but I am cynical.)
It would have been one thing if they had said "Hey, we have done out best to get things rolling ahead of time so there won't be delays, but we can't promise shipping within the year." Or if they had just kept their mouths shut. Instead they claimed they were 80% done (though what exactly they meant was nebulous) and things would be out the door quickly.
They may have been 80% with the original wave, but stretch goals are stretch goals for a reason. They weren't miniatures that they were holding in reserve to entice you to spend more money, they are additional products that they can only produce if they have access to more capital, which means that they are further behind in development, and thus require more time.
In any case, it was a very poorly run KS from the getgo, really not surprised that its taken this long, nor am I upset about it. I know I'm going to get what I paid for, and I know its going to be a quality product. It might have taken awhile, but thats whatever to me, as the product likely wouldn't have existed in the first place if I, and others that pledged, hadn't let them hold on to our money in advance of product in the first place. KS isn't a pre-order system, contrary to popular belief, its a funding/investment system, this KS chose to reward your investment with product via pre-order.
I dunno, have we seen the original wave done yet? Or any other reason to believe it was 80% done at the get go? I think maybe Punky was 80% done, and another heroine to two, but that was probably it.
RH flat out said they wanted to do 150+ sculpts on the KS page, and that many of them were nearly finished. We only saw renders of a few heroines, and some WIP renders of the KST troops and KST Heavies.
Fast forward a year, and the only figures we've seen that went from the KS render (which were actually refined later on, so that matches the 80% done phrase) to actual real-life model appear to be Lady Hilda von Stroheim, One-Shot Blondie, and Mad Nurse Bernadette.
~7 models previewed during the KS a year ago. So far, only 3 of them will be ready for wave 1.
I think RH overestimated the response they'd see for the KS, and I also think they grossly overestimated the amount of work they'd have to do to get miniatures out the door.
I'm not contributing any support for any of their future KS projects, that's for sure. This KS's long-winded and often times backhanded communication with little or no actual information is not really something I look forward to experiencing a second time round.
My pledge is in, and I paid extra to get 2 waves of shipping. Hopefully that second wave will arrive sometime before 2015.
So, if they said the whole 80% and 150 minis things during the KS, and people backed based off of that, then they're probably more than a little justified at being upset now, or however long past the deadline this is, or ends up being.
I'm glad to see we're still doing the thing where we pretend anyone who has expressed even mild irritation at the delays\lies\whatever is actually a raving, screaming, red faced anger demon on the verge of a heart attack or stroke. It's a cool way to argue because it really makes you seem level headed, no matter what you're saying, you know? Maybe sprinkle in a little faux concern for the their state of mind and or blood pressure to really seal the deal.
While I agree that you should have significantly more patience for a kickstarter which is by definition probably run by non-professionals and all the miscalculations, missteps, and plain old mistakes that is likely to entail, I would draw the line at dishonesty, such as, for example, "the project is 80% done"... at least without a codicil, later, that the project has now expanded, or that work had to be scrapped, or something to justify that the only reasonable conclusion later to that statement isn't "that was a bald faced lie".
Ouze wrote: I'm glad to see we're still doing the thing where we pretend anyone who has expressed even mild irritation at the delays\lies\whatever is actually a raving, screaming, red faced anger demon on the verge of a heart attack or stroke. It's a cool way to argue because it really makes you seem level headed, no matter what you're saying, you know? Maybe sprinkle in a little faux concern for the their state of mind and or blood pressure to really seal the deal.
Right right, because 220 pages of butthurt isn't irrational in any way.
I like to think of it as 220 pages of people using humor to make the best out of a bad situation. Frankly, RH have been sio dishonest and treated us with such disdain that they deserve a lot worse.
The only reason this thread hasn't gone as dark as Robotech Tactics is because we're trying so hard to see the funny side.
Ouze wrote: I'm glad to see we're still doing the thing where we pretend anyone who has expressed even mild irritation at the delays\lies\whatever is actually a raving, screaming, red faced anger demon on the verge of a heart attack or stroke. It's a cool way to argue because it really makes you seem level headed, no matter what you're saying, you know? Maybe sprinkle in a little faux concern for the their state of mind and or blood pressure to really seal the deal.
Right right, because 220 pages of butthurt isn't irrational in any way.
Did you take up farming? That's a lovely straw man you have there.
You'll note, by the way, that there were some specific questions I had for you in that last post. I remain genuinely curious for the basis of certain statements you have made.
Moving on to address the actual matters, it would be amazing for any other company (though par for the course here) but can it really be that RH is choosing to address their customers' questions exclusively through live chat? I haven't noticed a single official communication from RH since the PM went wide.
Yes. Because I'm subscribed to this thread so that I can get useful information and feedback. And every time the New Posts thing comes up in my subscribed threads list, all I see is people whinging about how some expectation they had isn't being met. This is not useful information. It has gotten annoying. I don't want to unsubscribe from the thread, because there has been legitimately useful information posted here in the past. But finding those gems in the 200 odd pages of complaints is a challenge. I'd rather that not be the case, so I'm trying to encourage people to set their expectations more appropriately for the kickstarter platform. This doesn't seem to be working well, but every time I get pulled back here to check the new posts, I'm tempted to try again. I'm happy to stop trying, if all the complaints would stop as well and we could simply use the thread for useful info.
You'll note, by the way, that there were some specific questions I had for you in that last post. I remain genuinely curious for the basis of certain statements you have made.
To be honest, the one you linked back to was A) a huge wall of text that I had a hard time discerning a question in (I don't see a single question mark there), and B) contained all sorts of references to "under the law" and "legally speaking", which, as I'm neither a lawyer, nor a lawyer specializing in international trade, I can't speak to.
If you're a lawyer and want to have a legalistic discussion, I'm not the right guy to have that discussion with. If you want to sum up the questions that you're genuinely curious about, I'll do my best to answer them.
Outside of that, I like kickstarter; I also acknowledge the limitations of the platform. My experience with RH is not substantially different than my experience with other kickstarter projects that I've backed, and is substantially better than at least two.
