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Post by: JeffVimes
Really enthusiastic from the beginning. The speed the EB went was amazing.
I just wish they will not get overwhelm by the size of what they need to produce. It's a pretty small company, and I bet there is TONS of nerd like me out there begging for such over-the-top quality, sexy fighting girl minis. Raging Heroes has been too optimistic in the past, I hope they will be able to deliver.
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Post by: UNCLEBADTOUCH
 tyrant of loserville wrote:Dang, my war chest is depleted from DZ. Maybe I should go sell some plasma for a few weeks to make some extra funds for this. 
If I could sell blood here in the UK I would there every week.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
 PsychoticStorm wrote:Aleksandr Kurganov Father of the Kurganova sisters, what is he doing in this kickstarter is a mystery.
Why is his presence a mystery?
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Post by: UNCLEBADTOUCH
Maybe he's in drag?
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Post by: Souleater
This KS was meant to be for three all female armies. Raging Heroes have already gone back on their word and included this token male to appease the Politically Correct. 
And for that reason, I'm out /Raging Heroines Quit 
In all seriousness maybe he was reported dead or something. In the video they mentioned working on the background so perhaps this is a little foreshadowing to whet the appetite.
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Post by: BrookM
Or maybe, he's the biggest tit of them all? 
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Post by: Symbio Joe
You mean he will be FABULOUS!
I do not see that happen but it would be the peak of awesome. 
Also it would solve the mystery about who is their mother.
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Post by: Morathi's Darkest Sin
I thought he was a funny edition myself, will be interested to see how he looks.
Also don't forget with the Dark Elves they are saying they won't be all female anyway, or where last time I saw them raise it.
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Post by: Gertjan
And just when I thought I was done with my IG army... Now I have to build me a Catachan army with those Jailbirds and those Iron Empires might be good stand ins for Steel Legion or DKK, damnit. Must resist the temptation...
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Post by: vic
Can someone please tell me where I can see these incredible minis? I am yet to see one single actual physical miniature that will be available to backers.
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Post by: Morathi's Darkest Sin
From past experience their 3D sculpts tend to pretty danged accurate of the final product Vic, so those first few they have shown are good enough for me.
Also, I have been asking you to do female figs for bloody ages, there is a market out there, which this Kickstarter is proving without any doubt.
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Post by: PsychoticStorm
I think why his presence is a mystery has been covered.
So maths time...
If my maths are not wrong, I count 141 sculpts not counting additional parts
38 heroes
35 unit boxes
They promised up to over 150 unique sculpts a bit over 20 heroes a tad over 20 unit boxes, I didn't know a bit and a tad was 15+, but the more promising is the unique sculpts, we probably have more to see than the shades and question marks which is great.
Automatically Appended Next Post:  Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:From past experience their 3D sculpts tend to pretty danged accurate of the final product Vic, so those first few they have shown are good enough for me.
Also, I have been asking you to do female figs for bloody ages, there is a market out there, which this Kickstarter is proving without any doubt.
Well shows how much connection GW has with their customer base and why people should not pay attention to their market analysis.
The female enforcers streachgoal in Deadzone was one of the fastest reached even if one takes into account all other final day rush streachgoals, there is a market for female miniatures.
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Post by: Slinky
Just remembered to add postage to my pledge, found myself adding another $50 on top of that too... 
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Just came from the thread about this at 4Chan. Wow are the social justice warriors out in full force, demonising people who buy it for supporting the exploitation of women and comparing everything to Kingdom Death.
Just like YouTube comments. Yikes...
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Post by: PsychoticStorm
And you are surprised because?
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Post by: KalashnikovMarine
The Kruganova and Iron Empire girls are about as cheesecak as women in full combat gear would be, unless you have a spiked helmet fetish, even the jailbirds, the most sexualized of the factions, aren't very cheesecakey, I'm not really seeing the KD comparison.
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Post by: Sigvatr
 H.B.M.C. wrote:Just came from the thread about this at 4Chan. Wow are the social justice warriors out in full force, demonising people who buy it for supporting the exploitation of women and comparing everything to Kingdom Death. Just like YouTube comments. Yikes...
If people can bitch about sth. they will bitch about it. Still think that this is great news for all SoB players - it's the closes thing to official plastic minis you will get in a VERY LONG while.
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Post by: KalashnikovMarine
Well, eventually RH is gonna do their Nunz with Gunz in Sphess. So there's that to look forward to too!
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Post by: Morathi's Darkest Sin
Yeah I'm a bit worried about that. At first I was Imperial guard 100% Dark Elves a no brainer, I will obviously be backing and now I've seen the money required I am all ready ring fencing funds for their take on the Druchii.
However I wasn't too worried about their take on SoB, with the look of the guard though, I am starting to think I'll be backing all three.
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Post by: KalashnikovMarine
I want people to back the Dark Elves so I have people to play against, I'm going in for the Shock Troopers, but I'm holding out the big bucks for the Battle Nunz
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Post by: Herzlos
 KalashnikovMarine wrote:The Kruganova and Iron Empire girls are about as cheesecak as women in full combat gear would be, unless you have a spiked helmet fetish, even the jailbirds, the most sexualized of the factions, aren't very cheesecakey, I'm not really seeing the KD comparison.
Apart from the anti-tank specialist. It's a very cheesecakey pose rather than that of a fighting girl. Which is a shame because she's otherwise excellent!
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Post by: WolfStark
There are a few things that classify the girls as girls like the boob armor, some very few poses and cloth (which counts almost only for the jailbirds). If these armies aren't emancipated I don't know what is. Especially because there are Jailbirds, Kurganovas and the Empire with different styles - that's how society should be. Diverse.
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Post by: praetor24
I joined the masses of this KS's pledgers. My question is: can someone throw let's say an extra $20 to his pledge to add an extra box or does he have to move up on the pledge levels if he needs more?
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
 praetor24 wrote:I joined the masses of this KS's pledgers. My question is: can someone throw let's say an extra $20 to his pledge to add an extra box or does he have to move up on the pledge levels if he needs more?
You can just add more money. No need to change pledge levels. At the end they'll send a survey asking you exactly which minis you want.
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Post by: praetor24
H.B.M.C. wrote: praetor24 wrote:I joined the masses of this KS's pledgers. My question is: can someone throw let's say an extra $20 to his pledge to add an extra box or does he have to move up on the pledge levels if he needs more?
You can just add more money. No need to change pledge levels. At the end they'll send a survey asking you exactly which minis you want.
Cheers for the quick reply. Now, I have to think what I will do with the minis, since I quit more or less 40k and got (or rather plan to get) seriously into Warzone. All suggestions are welcome!
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Post by: PsychoticStorm
Count as whatever to warzone, you could wait for their gamesystem, proxy to other gamesystems you might want to try, paint for display or make your own game system.
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Post by: Javin
They did mention in the Faq that if they get enough money Injected plastic is a possibility. I would be very very happy if this goes plastic.
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Post by: praetor24
PsychoticStorm wrote:Count as whatever to warzone, you could wait for their gamesystem, proxy to other gamesystems you might want to try, paint for display or make your own game system.
I generally hate proxies that do not resemble the models they are supposed to be proxying. But maybe the Iron Empire Girls can fit into the Bauhaus theme in Warzone. I am waiting currently a Dark Legion army with all options available (I went big on this KS), so the Girls might work as the alternative for a small sized human-faction force. Now, if only these bikes get unlocked 
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Post by: scarletsquig
Oh, it's definitely fetish cheesecake, make no doubt about that.
Nothing wrong with that, and it makes excellent business sense to sell what your customers want.
For every one white knight that rants on the internet about it there will be 10 others buying them (probably 1-2 of them women, too).
4chan is about to give the KS a ton of great free advertising.. a lot of people lurking on there are gonna see the "rage thread" and think "why so butthurt?" "Oh, I see them kinky minis. Me gusta. *clicks pledge button*".
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Post by: PsychoticStorm
Javin wrote:They did mention in the Faq that if they get enough money Injected plastic is a possibility. I would be very very happy if this goes plastic.
I wouldn't, except if they mean resin plastic, plastic does not take undercuts well or at all, it would greatly undermine their quality, or vastly increase the parts count.
I feel the "OMG plastic" is something the community has been fed and been brainwashed its the best thing ever, it has its uses and it can be good for a variety of things, but I do not think its good for this project.
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Post by: DarkTraveler777
Is it known if the weapons are integrated into the miniatures or if they will be separate bits? Since these are metal, and likely very delicate, I am wondering how difficult it will be to convert the models if the weapons are attached to the figures' arms.
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Post by: Herzlos
PsychoticStorm wrote:Javin wrote:They did mention in the Faq that if they get enough money Injected plastic is a possibility. I would be very very happy if this goes plastic.
I wouldn't, except if they mean resin plastic, plastic does not take undercuts well or at all, it would greatly undermine their quality, or vastly increase the parts count.
I feel the "OMG plastic" is something the community has been fed and been brainwashed its the best thing ever, it has its uses and it can be good for a variety of things, but I do not think its good for this project.
Yes, plastic takes a bit more design and may result in more parts to get round the undercut issue, but what it generally results in is cheaper mini's that are light and easy to convert. I'd happily go plastic and take a bit longer to assemble figures if it knocked the cost down to the point where an army is achievable.
There'd also be a lot less casting work for RH, so it might speed production up too. We're already at 1000 backers, so we're already into the tens of thousands of mini's needing to be spun-cast, which is still somewhat time consuming.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
I know right?
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Post by: Squidbot
Wait, what? 4Chan don't like this? Hilarious.
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Post by: Elemental
KalashnikovMarine wrote:The Kruganova and Iron Empire girls are about as cheesecak as women in full combat gear would be, unless you have a spiked helmet fetish, even the jailbirds, the most sexualized of the factions, aren't very cheesecakey, I'm not really seeing the KD comparison.
One distinction that often gets lost is that it's possible for someone to appear impressive or appealing without it meaning they're sexualised. On the one hand, many of us have rolled our eyes when a certain artist assumes that where a male character can dress plausibly, the woman next to him has to have armour with high heels and cleavage, because they can't think of a way to make a woman stand out other than looking "hot". But it also seems to go the other way, where any attempt to make a female character look visually attractive & distinct will be read as sexualisation. And for some, nothing less than removing all visual signatures that "this model is a woman" will do. It's worth noting that scantilly clad men (your typical brawny barbarian in just a loincloth with his man-splitting greatsword) seem much more likely to be percieved as "impressive" rather than "sexy", and that men being sexualised is much less likely to be seen as a bad thing.
So....I don't know what my point is, other than there's a lot of very subtle social and perception issues that come into this. It's hard to say "Your opinion is invalid." to someone without being a jerk, of course, so I can just say that in my opinion, speaking for nobody else, this range (esp. the Kurganova) strike a near-perfect balance of non-sexual visual appeal and plausibility as professional soldiers.
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Post by: JWMarines
Thanks for that, Breotan, I had solidly decided on going Kurganova. And now that I've watched that again, I'm half way to "needing", at minimum, a squad of the Rambettes. Though they might need to get de-'Nam'd a bit.
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Post by: TheDraconicLord
I just know all hell is gonna break lose when I use certain Iron Empire heroes as count-as crypteks / lords in my Necron army
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Post by: gianlucafiorentini123
Sorry if this has already been answered but how exactly do add-ons work and how do you edit your pledge?
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Post by: Gitkikka
Dat shipping...:(
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Post by: miniholic
I admit that I really dig the nurse...but it shows my age when I also admit that I immediately recognized Tania Tanker:
Well this must have been the original art:
You gotta love it!
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Post by: Azazelx
...is actually pretty bloody cheap for an international purchase. Automatically Appended Next Post: Yeah, it's clearly Rosie and was an instant spot. Not sure how much it shows your age, unless you were around during her prime? 
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Post by: Squidbot
Dat shipping that they have spoken about before the KS went live. I don't see why people are getting upset about having to pay for boxes of stuff to be shipped internationally.
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Post by: Lansirill
Yeah. The shipping seems quite reasonable. Maybe a bit high, maybe a bit low, but I've spent more on domestic shipping before.
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Post by: Krinsath
And their shipping is with tracking and insured, so it's not the "stuff it in a box/envelope and hope it gets there ok" variety of shipping.
It pushes the cost up too high for me at the "I just want a handful of miniatures and not a bulk purchase", but it's not unreasonable shipping.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
 Azazelx wrote:...is actually pretty bloody cheap for an international purchase.
Yeah, twenty bucks shipping is nothing.
Azazelx wrote:Yeah, it's clearly Rosie and was an instant spot. Not sure how much it shows your age, unless you were around during her prime?
Yeah, I picked it immediately. I'm not that old either.
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Post by: Gitkikka
 Squidbot wrote:
Dat shipping that they have spoken about before the KS went live. I don't see why people are getting upset about having to pay for boxes of stuff to be shipped internationally.
Ease up, Sparky - I haven't been paying very close attention to this KS until I knew for sure that RH was actually going to get it out within the decade, so I wasn't paying attention to previous discussions about the high shipping costs. Seriously, you guys don't have to act like it's an attack on the company and it's product whenever somebody gets "upset" about their policies, shipping or otherwise.
In a lighter post, for those who want to make a Sucker Punch game out of the Rambettes, Reaper happens to make not- SP minis that can lead them - my favorite: http://www.reapermini.com/OnlineStore/Chronoscope/sku-down/50229
Kind of hoping the soon-to-be-shown RH mech looks like it needs a bunny painted on the front...
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Post by: Alpharius
Is it around 3PM in France right now?
Shouldn't there be some more info coming out of RH central, either via the Kickstarter or the Heralds?
They really should announce what the goal for Plastic miniatures is soon, as a way to maintain the momentum of a great start.
Having $20K and $30K 'stretch goal' unlocks for paid-ons is a bit of a buzz kill.
As is being $275K into this without the first 'free' miniature add-on.
Some of these milestones are beginning to have the infamous 'fake stretch goal' whiff about them.
I'm still surprised that they got caught with their pants down after all the extra time they took with the advance planning too.
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Post by: BrookM
You can add more post campaign via PayPal.
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Post by: chaos0xomega
Yeah, I'm not really liking the way this kickstarter looks, I'll give it a couple weeks and if it still seems off I'm going to back out. To me it looks like they realized they could make more money than they thought and are trying to stretch it out further.
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Post by: zatazuken
It took me a minute to figure this out too, but:
Go to the page and hit "manage pledge".
Select the pledge level you want.
Scroll back up, input the amount for the pledge level + shipping.
Hit continue.
If you don't edit the pledge dollars at the top, it just constantly kicks you back until you do.
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Post by: shamikebab
Anyone noticed this resemblance?
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Post by: Boggy Man
$275,000 + on a 12k goal.
Obviously everyone in that other thread who said there was no call for GW female minis was making a well-reasoned argument.
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Post by: Commander Cain
I'm gonna give this kickstarter a miss I think. While the art looks incredible I have already used up my funds for the Mantic ks! Also the fact that RH have already surged past a quarter of a million bucks and there isn't a free model in sight is a bit of a downer.
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Post by: Breotan
I'll probably stay in for the duration. Although if they don't move to hard plastic, I'll likely reduce my pledge by a lot. As cool as these are, I've already got a #$%@-ton of hot babes coming from Poots.
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Post by: Redbeard
I agree, the unlocking of additional characters seems to be going really slowly for the amount that they exceeded the stated goal by. They're well over 2000% funded, I'd have hoped to see a lot more unlocked.
I mean, at the top of the page, they show "One-Shot Blondie" and "Mad Nurse Bernadette", along with miniatures of both. In the "What's Coming Next", where it says "below you can review what's been unlocked and what's coming...", they're still blacked out.
So, we've seen two figs that aren't even unlocked yet, at 2000% funding, and they're not even shown in the next three.
Seems that $30k between stretch goals to unlock single figures is extremely stingy, when there are 38 heroines to potentially unlock.
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Post by: Alpharius
Azazelx wrote:
Um.. I was going to post this last night, but I went to bed instead. I'm sure someone has already beaten me to it, as I'm posting as I'm catching up on the thread, but just in case..
shamikebab wrote:Anyone noticed this resemblance?
Yeah, I guess so!
Commander Cain wrote:I'm gonna give this kickstarter a miss I think. While the art looks incredible I have already used up my funds for the Mantic ks! Also the fact that RH have already surged past a quarter of a million bucks and there isn't a free model in sight is a bit of a downer.
Yeah, it is...
chaos0xomega wrote:Yeah, I'm not really liking the way this kickstarter looks, I'll give it a couple weeks and if it still seems off I'm going to back out. To me it looks like they realized they could make more money than they thought and are trying to stretch it out further.
It does seem that way - but I think I'll have to give them the benefit of the doubt for now and go with the fact that, despite all the extra time they took to prepare, they will still unprepared.
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Post by: Mr Gutsy
 Alpharius wrote:Having $20K and $30K 'stretch goal' unlocks for paid-ons is a bit of a buzz kill.
I agree completely. Im really hoping that Raging heroes are only starting off with high stretch goals so they can gain the most money possible from the initial KS surge, and that the rest of the character stretch goals will be much lower when the KS starts to slow down over the next few days. Otherwise i can see this campaign becoming very boring and drawn out, especially if we have to spend the next few weeks struggling to unlock a few of the 25k-30k stretch goal characters...
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Post by: Alpharius
Well, I think the 'motorcycle' and 'mech' reveals will cause another flood of pledging and upgrading of pledges!
As would a bar for us to reach for plastics...
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Post by: Herzlos
Edit: The nurse mini is one of the options open to anyone at cost, isn't she?
For some reason I thought she was a freebie for Captain and above, which is more than I'm willing to spend ($350 + shipping).
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Post by: Inquisitor Wappellious
I have been posting these links to the blog so that people can see what the Raging Heroes figures look like, but the amount of traffic here buries them quite rapidly!
http://wappellious.blogspot.com/2013/06/the-raging-heroes-kickstarter-begins.html
Also, here is a post that shows a typical 5- mini box set:
http://wappellious.blogspot.com/2012/10/calming-my-finecast-rage-raging-heroes.html
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Post by: pretre
I don't know about that. I'm a pretty hardcore sisters player and I haven't felt the need to pledge yet.
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Post by: Alpharius
 pretre wrote:
I don't know about that. I'm a pretty hardcore sisters player and I haven't felt the need to pledge yet.
I guess you're both wrong then!
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Post by: Redbeard
Or, unfortunately, the opposite. I already signed on at a fairly high level, with the goal of getting the jailbirds, based on models I've already seen. In order to get all the characters for just one of the armies, you're looking at $130-160 worth of characters, so that's a Major box or better, which is roughly a $500 pledge, minimum.
My expectation was that, in spite of the underplanned launch, that those models would get unlocked. At the moment, only roughly half are unlocked for any of the three armies. There's 23 blacked-out character models to go, and at the current $20k/model, that means the kickstarter needs to add an additional $460,000 to get them all unlocked. That doesn't even count the blacked-out troops and support options.
Maybe I'm wrong, but my guess is that with the hype surrounding the launch, I don't see that happening. Rather, I'd expect to see other people drop out when it becomes obvious that their faction isn't going to have the characters they want. I'm not dropping $500+ to get a faction with only five unlocked character models - which is where it's at currently. Maybe I'm wrong - and I have a month to wait and see. But I'm not encouraged at the moment.
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Post by: Ouze
pretre wrote:
I don't know about that. I'm a pretty hardcore sisters player and I haven't felt the need to pledge yet.
I agree totally. If I were a sister's player, I'd be pretty inclined to wait for the next one as well - I don't think these quite match the aesthetic. The Iron Empire stuff looks like it slots a lot better into a DKoK theme than a Sisters one.
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Post by: pretre
Alpharius wrote: pretre wrote:
I don't know about that. I'm a pretty hardcore sisters player and I haven't felt the need to pledge yet.
I guess you're both wrong then!
I'm always wrong though, so that's no accomplishment.
Ouze wrote:I agree totally. If I were a sister's player, I'd be pretty inclined to wait for the next one as well - I don't think these quite match the aesthetic. The Iron Empire stuff looks like it slots a lot better into a DKoK theme than a Sisters one.
Yeah, I'm definitely going to watch this one for anything that looks good, but so far no bites from me. It doesn't help that I have way too many sisters as it is.
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Post by: JeffVimes
Guys, the 24 hours mark has just been hit. Maybe it's a little bit early to throw this KS out of the window saying it's crap and un-pledge, isn't it?
I'm as doubtful about it as most of you are, and I would like to see more things unlock and more free mini with my pledge, but I think you can give them some time to do their math and produce a proper update.
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Post by: Minx
 Redbeard wrote:My expectation was that, in spite of the underplanned launch, that those models would get unlocked. At the moment, only roughly half are unlocked for any of the three armies. There's 23 blacked-out character models to go, and at the current $20k/model, that means the kickstarter needs to add an additional $460,000 to get them all unlocked. That doesn't even count the blacked-out troops and support options.
Maybe I'm wrong, but my guess is that with the hype surrounding the launch, I don't see that happening. Rather, I'd expect to see other people drop out when it becomes obvious that their faction isn't going to have the characters they want. I'm not dropping $500+ to get a faction with only five unlocked character models - which is where it's at currently. Maybe I'm wrong - and I have a month to wait and see. But I'm not encouraged at the moment.
There's still a month left on this kickstarter. If they'd have unveiled / unlocked all their prepared miniatures by now what else would we be waiting and get excited for in the coming weeks? If it's taking too long between stretch goals they can adjust their spacing according to the incoming pledge rate (i am new to KS so maybe that is not how it's done). Either way i believe we will get all (most of) their prepared stuff by the end.
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Post by: Redbeard
 Minx wrote:
There's still a month left on this kickstarter. If they'd have unveiled / unlocked all their prepared miniatures by now what else would we be waiting and get excited for in the coming weeks?
Ordinarily, I might agree with you. But this one has been in preparation for so long, a lot of us have been waiting and excited for the last three months, and I think that explains how they hit 100% of the goal in five seconds, and 1000% of the goal in an hour.
Because they didn't have all these stretch goals set up beforehand, I'm worried that they're adding them later at greater intervals than is reasonable, because they've already passed a lot of money. But they've also probably burned out those three months of expectation and excitement that had already built. It's nice to think that there's more excitement to be had in the next four weeks of waiting, but I'm not feeling that. I think the excitement of waiting is now past, and that most of the people who had three months to get excited about this are already bought in. There may be a gradual trickle of more funds over the next month, but I don't think it possible that they maintain the initial momentum, and that the intervals in the remaining unlockings are too far apart to believe that we'll hit them. I hope I'm wrong.
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Post by: Alpharius
Not if you 'do the math' using the new figures.
Though there's no doubt that will change.
Also, we could be 'waiting and excited for' plastic miniatures - a hinted at potential destination.
Maybe.
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Post by: Breotan
 Ouze wrote:I don't think these quite match the aesthetic. The Iron Empire stuff looks like it slots a lot better into a DKoK theme than a Sisters one.
Or you could run them as allies to a DKoK army.
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Post by: Minx
 Alpharius wrote:Not if you 'do the math' using the new figures.
Though there's no doubt that will change.
Since we don't know and cannot deduce the underlying model we cannot "do the math". It doesn't need to be linear, differentiable or even continous.
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Post by: Alpharius
Minx wrote: Alpharius wrote:Not if you 'do the math' using the new figures.
Though there's no doubt that will change.
Since we don't know and cannot deduce the underlying model we cannot "do the math". It doesn't need to be linear, differentiable or even continous.
I disagree - don't make me summon buzzsaw to do one of his awesome analysis posts of this thing!
Also, some of the "Raging Heralds" are really not presenting themselves well in the KS comments sections - it is starting to become a poor reflection on the parent company...
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Post by: Inquisitor Wappellious
As painter for Raging Heroes, my Herald duties are much more clearly defined  
For me, it is all about telling folks how easy these figures are to work with. When you paint as many armies as I do, you waste many precious hours of your life dealing with things like mould lines in nasty places, figures that don't fit together, and so on. 
If all the figures I had to paint were like these, I would have many of those hours back... for things like sleeping. As you know, I am doing an entire IG/Sisters army of RH figures. I already know that the prep time for those minis will be a fraction of what most companies would inflict upon me.
Here is one fun example of a potentially nightmarish assembly that was done in a few minutes. At the kitchen table, visiting with my wife's parent's who were in town that week.
http://wappellious.blogspot.com/2013/05/now-this-is-really-cool.html
As for other Heralds (who are typing post after post), the chances for a mishap of some kind rise significantly to make someone upset with that much interaction... 
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Post by: Minx
As long as there are no kickstarter rules regarding the spacing of stretch goals even buzzsaw won't be able to predict the future. There is no necessary dependence on old data, i.e. they can choose any interval they feel like.
On Topic:
Although I was mainly interested in the jailbirds the kurganovas, esp. the heavy troopers are growing on me:
Will be interesting to see their 3d renderings. Or the renderings/sculpts of any of the troops for that matter.
Edit: [removed the cop out]
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Post by: Valhallan42nd
Redbeard wrote:Or, unfortunately, the opposite. I already signed on at a fairly high level, with the goal of getting the jailbirds, based on models I've already seen. In order to get all the characters for just one of the armies, you're looking at $130-160 worth of characters, so that's a Major box or better, which is roughly a $500 pledge, minimum.
My expectation was that, in spite of the underplanned launch, that those models would get unlocked. At the moment, only roughly half are unlocked for any of the three armies. There's 23 blacked-out character models to go, and at the current $20k/model, that means the kickstarter needs to add an additional $460,000 to get them all unlocked. That doesn't even count the blacked-out troops and support options.
Maybe I'm wrong, but my guess is that with the hype surrounding the launch, I don't see that happening. Rather, I'd expect to see other people drop out when it becomes obvious that their faction isn't going to have the characters they want. I'm not dropping $500+ to get a faction with only five unlocked character models - which is where it's at currently. Maybe I'm wrong - and I have a month to wait and see. But I'm not encouraged at the moment.
My suggestion is to stay positive. As you said, you have an entire month to see where this is going, and to adjust to the realities on the ground.
This is their first kickstarter. Mistakes will be made. They'll learn from it over the next month and roll with it. But, as of now, it's been 25 hours and 18 minutes since they launched. It's been an astounding success so far, and given the ambitious goals they've given themselves (launch 3 product lines of astounding quality), they're doing well. They've got my vote.
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Post by: Alpharius
Minx wrote:
As long as there are no kickstarter rules regarding the spacing of stretch goals even buzzsaw won't be able to predict the future. There is no necessary dependence on old data, i.e. they can choose any interval they feel like. Anyway this is getting off topic, sorry for that.
.
Now you're just being willfully obtuse and stifling discussion.
For my money, the "head in sand" approach isn't all that constructive
But yeah, those heavy troopers do look nice!
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Post by: pretre
Yeah, the Kurganova heavies are pretty much the only ones that have made me wonder so far.
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Post by: Minx
You are right, that didn't sound the way i intended.
Edit:
I think we should allow them more time to settle on a way to handle their stretch goals and free upgrades/minis. The huge success of the last 25 hours has been quite overwhelming for them, even though i am still amazed at their low initial goal of $12k. Well made female miniatures are not that commonly found after all.
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Post by: Alpharius
Agreed on all counts!
I do wish they'd be a bit more communicative though!
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Post by: Morathi's Darkest Sin
It was getting really heated in the comments section there a while back, and a couple of the heralds where not helping things either, but it seems they have a grip of things now.
Sadly sometimes in that position you have to bite your lip and stay neutral, otherwise it'll just snowball.
In all, its still looking good and climbing upward. Chatting to Aurelia earlier as well, and she now will be having all the Iron Empire figs along with some Krieg to make a chaos Guard force to ally to her Chaos Marines.
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Post by: Saxon
I briefly read the comments, and seen it was the same people who moaned on Dreadzone - wait to they start asking for a Brian Blessed model...
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Post by: Hulksmash
For me it's the lack of communication and organization combined with the feeling that they are massively inflating their stretch goals and no additional figs thru 310k.
I'm staying in at the Liuetenant level and will evaluate once it gets toward the end.
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Post by: RoninXiC
well... actually there were already some Brian blessing comments... thank goodness they did not go on for very long.
we really don't need that in this Kickstarter as well
Automatically Appended Next Post:
but: the stretch goals seem a bit stretched ;( end only a single real honest upgrade is quite weak and they could've probably get a lot more money if they had shown some updates.
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Post by: decker_cky
 Hulksmash wrote:For me it's the lack of communication and organization combined with the feeling that they are massively inflating their stretch goals and no additional figs thru 310k.
I'm staying in at the Liuetenant level and will evaluate once it gets toward the end.
Pretty much identical to my thoughts. If there's no real additions to this campaign, I think this has the potential to deflate. Right now, it feels like they're just opening things because they can, but that momentum won't keep up. Once things slow down, 20k to open a paid for model will totally stall the campaign.
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Post by: Saxon
My guess is Raging Heroes are gaking themselves with how quickly it funded and the fact that they could easily get $1 million out of this... they also probably have hit the point were they know it will be virtually impossible to get the models cast by their deadline... I guessing the lack of communication is they are too busy trying to work out what to do!
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Post by: decker_cky
By the way, just got a message back from Raging Heroes - they will allow people to buy other models from their normal store and piggy-back on the shipping paid for the kickstarter.
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Post by: Buzzsaw
Minx wrote:
As long as there are no kickstarter rules regarding the spacing of stretch goals even buzzsaw won't be able to predict the future. There is no necessary dependence on old data, i.e. they can choose any interval they feel like.
In all seriousness, I am very interested in doing a post mortem on this campaign eventually, but as it is still in it's infancy, I'll hold of on any definitive statements.
That said, there is an important consideration that Loud'n Raging (I think I have their brickwall punk album...) needs to bare in mind: a volcanic start can be the result of any number of factors, but it is no guarantee of the continued strength of the campaign. Consider the available data in light of two relatively recent paradigms;
Raging Heroes - The Toughest Girls of the Galaxy;
Through the Breach: A Malifaux Roleplaying Game
Deadzone: The Sci-fi Miniatures Board Game
As one can see above, an initial spike of pledges has little bearing on the shape of the remaining campaign.
Some little things that ( IMO) Raging Heroes needs to be cognizant of;
-"Stealth updates"; Kickstarter has an ideal system for both keeping the pledge base aware of new developments and providing an easy illustration of campaign momentum, the update. While some people can be irritated by many update emails from KS, it also is an easy way to build interest in others.
--How many new pledges for Deadzone were garnered by a friend forwarding the announcement of that "just perfect" new stretch goal? How many people were reassured by Mantic's ability to communicate (if there is one element of Mantic that is consistently praised, it is their appearance of openness and responsiveness)?
-"Value perception"; RH has constructed this campaign in a very restrictive fashion, with the bundles offering fairly scant value thus far above simply buying things piecemeal. It is also noteworthy that gaps between stretch goals seem largely arbitrary: consider the current sequence;
The initial post had stretch goals for individual figures spaced $4-5000 apart. Why does it now take $20-25-30-35,000 to tool a single new model? With campaigns such as Reaper's Bones this was easily understandable, as the higher the total number of Vampire pledges, the more figures they would be required to produce and include for no additional cost. But that is not the case here: with each unlock, figures are being tooled, but the responsibility to the backers does not increase.
That is, the moment the campaign opened a Commander pledge
This pledge received $50 worth of heroines, $90 worth of troops and $90 worth of support.
$280,000 later, that pledge is still worth exactly the same.
With that model, there seems to be no reason whatsoever for the stretch goals now to be spaced differently then they were initially.
It's also somewhat troubling that the "unlocked freebies" still remains an empty set...
But in any case, much still to see.
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Post by: inqscott
I have the treads above an agree that the goals are too far apart you could gain more by showing what unlocks at what level. I know I went in big hoping to get the female general but now doing the rough math it might not happen. I believe they could make more by showing us more not waiting till they lose steam the it could be to late.
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Post by: chaos0xomega
I dont think theyll get 1 mil out of this, iirc All quiet hit something like 200k in the first day and finished at 300k (and they had much better communications and stretch goals than RH does). They also didnt have the ill will of a segment of their backers. The kickstarters that do best are the ones that make you an offer you cant refuse (lots of freebies, etc), and have a "sweet spot" in the range of $150-250 where your money gets you a ridiculous amount of goodies. As it stands right now there is no "sweet spot" for this kickstarter, especially given that the lower tiers through to Lieutenant level actually cost more money than the product youre getting.
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Post by: Saxon
All Quiet hit 83,000 on the first day... Everyone and his wife has underestimated the demand for female soldiers... once these factions expand with bikes etc, and add-ons will come...
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Post by: decker_cky
Saxon wrote:All Quiet hit 83,000 on the first day... Everyone and his wife has underestimated the demand for female soldiers... once these factions expand with bikes etc, and add-ons will come...
Don't disagree with the demand, but it's important to realize that almost all of the current pledging is speculative early bird pledging. For me, the value isn't there yet, and it seems similar for a lot. I'll stick around because there's no loss in doing so and the miniatures do interest me, but if the campaign is badly run, it could definitely stall out.
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Post by: Hulksmash
Meh, I have no problem pulling my pledge when the end gets closer. I think Buzzsaw hit it on the head and I do think this has the potential to deflate based on the way it's currently being handled. They still haven't updated the first page for the goal hit earlier....
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Post by: Alpharius
As bad as "Brian Blessed!" is in the comments section, yet again, the 'official' RH reps are really not doing anyone any favors with the tone and tenor in some of their posts.
As a representatives of RH, they really need to stay positive, ignore the criticism if they can't handle it, and really should not respond to it in a negative fashion.
This is especially true while RH themselves remain strangely absent and silent.
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Post by: BrookM
Maybe they're trying to figure out how to best handle this all?
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Post by: Lansirill
My main concern with the stretch goals is that they're doing it to try and increase pledges, but I think they may be spread out a bit too far for that to work. If you need 20k to go between stretch goals, and the goal costs $10 to add-on, you're looking at 2,000 people wanting that model in order to progress to the next goal. That's a pretty popular model. Now, in reality, it's more complicated than that because you'll have some new pledges coming in which will boost the total, and you'll have some people who want the model but will just pay for it with part of their pledge package (or by not getting something else.)
I imagine the thing to do is to pretty much ignore the KS for a week (hey, it's working for RH) and then see what's happened. Maybe wait until the 15th.
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Post by: BrookM
Hey, that's my line!
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Post by: Tresson
chaos0xomega wrote:I dont think theyll get 1 mil out of this, iirc All quiet hit something like 200k in the first day and finished at 300k (and they had much better communications and stretch goals than RH does). They also didnt have the ill will of a segment of their backers. The kickstarters that do best are the ones that make you an offer you cant refuse (lots of freebies, etc), and have a "sweet spot" in the range of $150-250 where your money gets you a ridiculous amount of goodies. As it stands right now there is no "sweet spot" for this kickstarter, especially given that the lower tiers through to Lieutenant level actually cost more money than the product youre getting.
While there are some things that are worth complaining about in this KS the lower pledge levels costing more then what you get is not one of them. Here's a quick break down of the difference in what you would getting the basic Lieutenant pledge level. and what you'd have to pay retail.
LT Box
Heroines 3 x $10 =$30
Troops 4 x $15 = $60
Support 4x $15 = $60
Exclusive
Model = $15
Total =$165
MRRP
Heroines 3 x $16.50 = $49
Troops 4 x $20 = $80
Support 4 x $21.50 = $86
Exclusive
Model = 18
Total =$233
Total Savings on the Lieutenant Box over MRRP is = $68 dollars.
So unless you think $233 dollars is less then $165 dollars it's quite clear that your getting savings.
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Post by: Centurionpainting
Tresson wrote:chaos0xomega wrote:I dont think theyll get 1 mil out of this, iirc All quiet hit something like 200k in the first day and finished at 300k (and they had much better communications and stretch goals than RH does). They also didnt have the ill will of a segment of their backers. The kickstarters that do best are the ones that make you an offer you cant refuse (lots of freebies, etc), and have a "sweet spot" in the range of $150-250 where your money gets you a ridiculous amount of goodies. As it stands right now there is no "sweet spot" for this kickstarter, especially given that the lower tiers through to Lieutenant level actually cost more money than the product youre getting.
While there are some things that are worth complaining about in this KS the lower pledge levels costing more then what you get is not one of them. Here's a quick break down of the difference in what you would getting the basic Lieutenant pledge level. and what you'd have to pay retail.
LT Box
Heroines 3 x $10 =$30
Troops 4 x $15 = $60
Support 4x $15 = $60
Exclusive
Model = $15
Total =$165
MRRP
Heroines 3 x $16.50 = $49
Troops 4 x $20 = $80
Support 4 x $21.50 = $86
Exclusive
Model = 18
Total =$233
Total Savings on the Lieutenant Box over MRRP is = $68 dollars.
So unless you think $233 dollars is less then $165 dollars it's quite clear that your getting savings.
They make you pay shipping though, so your savings take another $25 hit (depending on location)....I miss the Deadzone KS....
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Post by: Alpharius
They have awakened!
Creator Loud'n Raging 16 minutes ago
We haven't had the time to go though all the comments yet, but from what we've been reading, some of you seem to be concerned about our plans for this Kickstarter.
First of all, as you can imagine, this amazing start has been a surprise for us. It was so emotion nay intense to see the numbers rise at this speed that yes, we were a bit dumbstruck for most of the day. However, rest assured that everything is still very much in control. We planned this project for an entire year, and for the last 6 months, we've done absolutely nothing else other than working on it.
However, as much as we tried to anticipate everything, some of your interests and reactions have not necessarily been where we'd have thought they'd be. A very specific example of that is the fact that many of you asked for more pledge levels exclusively designed for Heroines. The truth is that we were concerned that most of you would rather have units than Heroines. This sort of thing is really not a problem and easy to solve, and we are currently working on several on these issues.
Also, and this is very important, we were obviously mistaken in following Kickstarter recommendation that we NOT post too many updates, and particularly NOT post updates every time we unlocked a stretch goal, so as not the spam the backers. From the many comments we see here, we should have followed our gut feeling and posted many more updates. This short answer is just to tell you that we are back and ready to hear your questions, comments and concerns.
Creator Loud'n Raging 15 minutes ago
Oops, forgot the first 2 lines of the post:
Hello everyone! Back on deck!
Sorry for being late and hence the radio silence, which lasted longer than expected. We had to run to the doctor for a medical emergency and this delayed us for a while :-(
Creator Loud'n Raging 4 minutes ago
@HK 47
I agree with the Inner Geek.
And yet, to help you plan for a whole army, we thought we'd show the silhouettes of most of our stretch goals. True, you don't know WHEN they'll be released, but at least, you already know a lo about what's coming.
Creator Loud'n Raging 2 minutes ago
@I HAVE BEEN BLESSED
The medical emergency was certainly a bit of that, but thankfully, nothing as serious!
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Post by: Buzzsaw
Allow me to add a few other statements;
@HK47: Well, there are more heroes than troops to be unlocked, so we will be sprinkling troops and supports amidst the Heroines stretch goals.
@Scientific Adventurer: Thanks, we have indeed planned to add a link the artwork of each unlocked mini in the updates.
@Kevin Behrendt "Don't hesitate spamming us with "Unlock" and "That's next" all in the Update area instead of the Front page, where no one get's informed and where it needs viral activity to know that something happened." That's how we'll handle things from now on. Indeed, that was our original plan, but we refrained from doing it because of the KS recommendations....
60720
Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
and
We haven't had the time to go though all the comments yet, but from what we've been reading, some of you seem to be concerned about our plans for this Kickstarter.
First of all, as you can imagine, this amazing start has been a surprise for us. It was so emotion nay intense to see the numbers rise at this speed that yes, we were a bit dumbstruck for most of the day. However, rest assured that everything is still very much in control. We planned this project for an entire year, and for the last 6 months, we've done absolutely nothing else other than working on it.
However, as much as we tried to anticipate everything, some of your interests and reactions have not necessarily been where we'd have thought they'd be. A very specific example of that is the fact that many of you asked for more pledge levels exclusively designed for Heroines. The truth is that we were concerned that most of you would rather have units than Heroines. This sort of thing is really not a problem and easy to solve, and we are currently working on several on these issues.
Also, and this is very important, we were obviously mistaken in following Kickstarter recommendation that we NOT post too many updates, and particularly NOT post updates every time we unlocked a stretch goal, so as not the spam the backers. From the many comments we see here, we should have followed our gut feeling and posted many more updates. This short answer is just to tell you that we are back and ready to hear your questions, comments and concerns.
naughty KS saying we the public don't want updates! (I suspect they don't want their servers wasting energy/money sending them!
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Post by: Minx
Regarding the stretch goals:
I'm assuming you are referring to the Stretch Goal Intervals?
We started with a low funding point because we know that when a Kickstarter is funded quickly, it really helps to give the project more visibility. That's the reason why we had planned we had planned several small stretch goal right after that, so that you guys would be able to rapidly see new unlocked minis to get a better feel of how, each army would look and how you would spend your pledge.
At this point in time, we've come back to more normal stretch goal intervals. the only thing that took us by surprise was that we did not think you would unlock those small stretch goals so quickly.
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Post by: silent25
Having to choose between this KS and the Wargods KS on where to throw my money. RH had four months of prep for this, that they still only have 3D sculpts to show and nothing physical doesn't sit well with me. They should have had the Sky Captain modeled and painted by this point.
Going to go with Wargods because Fitz has done a better job of laying everything out and has actual sculpts to show. I know whats coming and also what extras I can look forward to. How a KS is run during the campaign would indicate how things would be run afterwards. Don't want to contribute money and then be in the dark. It is only day two of the campaign, but with a four month delay, this should have had far more shine and polish than is currently does. It does not fill me with confidence.
*edit* see RH is starting to post comments, but still doesn't sit well with me.
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Post by: Alpharius
Creator Loud'n Raging 10 minutes ago
@Abe Lincoln with a ShotgunAxe
I'm assuming you are referring to the Stretch Goal Intervals?
We started with a low funding point because we know that when a Kickstarter is funded quickly, it really helps to give the project more visibility. That's the reason why we had planned we had planned several small stretch goal right after that, so that you guys would be able to rapidly see new unlocked minis to get a better feel of how, each army would look and how you would spend your pledge.
At this point in time, we've come back to more normal stretch goal intervals. the only thing that took us by surprise was that we did not think you would unlock those small stretch goals so quickly.
Does that answer your question?
I suppose it does.
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Post by: cincydooley
Personally, I don't get how any miniature company can, at this point, be this unprepared for a KS and how to 'best' manage one.
There are MULTIPLE examples that exist as ways to properly engage your customers and to keep them informed, as well as keeping the project up to date.
At this point, for me the "we didn't expect..." excuse is a BS throwaway line that really means, "We're really bad at planning."
Alpharius wrote:At this point in time, we've come back to more normal stretch goal intervals. the only thing that took us by surprise was that we did not think you would unlock those small stretch goals so quickly.
Does that answer your question?
In English: "We're very poor at planning."
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Post by: Alpharius
 cincydooley wrote:Personally, I don't get how any miniature company can, at this point, be this unprepared for a KS and how to 'best' manage one.
There are MULTIPLE examples that exist as ways to properly engage your customers and to keep them informed, as well as keeping the project up to date.
At this point, for me the "we didn't expect..." excuse is a BS throwaway line that really means, "We're really bad at planning."
And yet:
First of all, as you can imagine, this amazing start has been a surprise for us. It was so emotion nay intense to see the numbers rise at this speed that yes, we were a bit dumbstruck for most of the day. However, rest assured that everything is still very much in control. We planned this project for an entire year, and for the last 6 months, we've done absolutely nothing else other than working on it.
They really just need to start sending out actual content filled updates.
60546
Post by: conker249
There are a few that I am looking at, mainly the heavy teams and strategist. Really excited for the bikes and Mechs when they finally show up, purely for fun painting
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Post by: Buzzsaw
Minx wrote:Regarding the stretch goals:
I'm assuming you are referring to the Stretch Goal Intervals?
We started with a low funding point because we know that when a Kickstarter is funded quickly, it really helps to give the project more visibility. That's the reason why we had planned we had planned several small stretch goal right after that, so that you guys would be able to rapidly see new unlocked minis to get a better feel of how, each army would look and how you would spend your pledge.
At this point in time, we've come back to more normal stretch goal intervals. the only thing that took us by surprise was that we did not think you would unlock those small stretch goals so quickly.
With all due respect to RH, this answer is preposterous. The clear implication there is that they intended to always have $20-35,000 stretch goals to unlock individual models, an astonishingly inflated number. That is not a statement without context: thanks to innumerable other campaigns we have a very good idea how much it costs to tool molds for metal models (for a very nearly analogous campaign, one will note that Bombshell Miniatures was able to sculpt and tool each individual miniature for about $5k throughout their campaign).
To recopy my question to them in the comments;
@Loud'n Raging;
"@Don E "@Buzzsaw2 good luck getting your questions answered it seems they do a great job evading a response to "Freebies and Stretch Goals"
Did we not just answer the question about the Stretch Goals?"
With due respect, I don't believe that you did. From previous kickstarter campaigns we have a fairly good idea of how much it costs to sculpt and tool a single metal model (Bombshell Miniatures, for example, had $5k stretch goals from beginning to end). It costs approximately what they originally were listed at, $4-5k.
Now a single model costs $35,000 to be made available?
Note that this is not analogous to previous campaigns such as Reaper's Bones, where stretch goals had to become progressively farther apart because each stretch goal achieved meant another miniature was owed to the backers.
By contrast, the $35,000 stretch between Mimi the Radio ($225,000) and Ludmilla Magdanova ($260,000) simply allows a backer to add her... for $10.
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Post by: BrookM
Maybe we're getting plastics made in golden injection molds? That could justify the sudden increase in dosh levels..
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Post by: Alpharius
Have to admit, I wasn't expecting this one:
Creator Loud'n Raging less than a minute ago
@Jeff @Buzzsaw @Abe @Don E and perhaps others we may have missed…
A project like this does not work on a cost per miniature tooling. Beyond tooling, it's 3 full-time staff plus several full-time freelancers, and, at Raging Heroes, hours, days, and months spent on designing and sculpting. We have spread the entire project costs over the whole Kickstarter. Also, as we stated in the video, we are developing more than miniatures here, and the extra funding, if we get it, will be used for that.
We've sought to develop 3 full armies with a lot of production value, and have discounted the prices from 20 to 40% right off the bat, before any extra deals such as extra minis in higher pledge levels, freebies, and free upgrades.
All of our customers and people who work with us know that we are transparent and honest about our practices. If however we've failed to convince you, and you feel cheated in some way, then, as much as we hate to say it, perhaps we're not the right fit for you.
58858
Post by: overtyrant
With all due respect to RH, this answer is preposterous. The clear implication there is that they intended to always have $20-35,000 stretch goals to unlock individual models, an astonishingly inflated number. That is not a statement without context: thanks to innumerable other campaigns we have a very good idea how much it costs to tool molds for metal models (for a very nearly analogous campaign, one will note that Bombshell Miniatures was able to sculpt and tool each individual miniature for about $5k throughout their campaign).
To recopy my question to them in the comments;
@Loud'n Raging;
"@Don E "@Buzzsaw2 good luck getting your questions answered it seems they do a great job evading a response to "Freebies and Stretch Goals"
Did we not just answer the question about the Stretch Goals?"
With due respect, I don't believe that you did. From previous kickstarter campaigns we have a fairly good idea of how much it costs to sculpt and tool a single metal model (Bombshell Miniatures, for example, had $5k stretch goals from beginning to end). It costs approximately what they originally were listed at, $4-5k.
Now a single model costs $35,000 to be made available?
Note that this is not analogous to previous campaigns such as Reaper's Bones, where stretch goals had to become progressively farther apart because each stretch goal achieved meant another miniature was owed to the backers.
By contrast, the $35,000 stretch between Mimi the Radio ($225,000) and Ludmilla Magdanova ($260,000) simply allows a backer to add her... for $10.
Let me know how you got on.
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Post by: decker_cky
I don't doubt that they sunk at least $50,000 in for the initial sculpts (possibly more). The fact that they had the 3d renders done for what was the $200,000 stretch means that a lot of money was spent up front, so some of the early stretches likely had no relation to the price. At this point though, I'd be shocked if they don't have more than everything unlocked already covered (including the cost to produce and send out the product to all backers), so there should definitely be more of a relationship between the stretches and the cost to produce.
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Post by: Alpharius
Creator Loud'n Raging less than a minute ago
@Jeff @Buzzsaw @Abe @Don E and perhaps others we may have missed…
A project like this does not work on a cost per miniature tooling. Beyond tooling, it's 3 full-time staff plus several full-time freelancers, and, at Raging Heroes, hours, days, and months spent on designing and sculpting. We have spread the entire project costs over the whole Kickstarter. Also, as we stated in the video, we are developing more than miniatures here, and the extra funding, if we get it, will be used for that.
We've sought to develop 3 full armies with a lot of production value, and have discounted the prices from 20 to 40% right off the bat, before any extra deals such as extra minis in higher pledge levels, freebies, and free upgrades.
All of our customers and people who work with us know that we are transparent and honest about our practices. If however we've failed to convince you, and you feel cheated in some way, then, as much as we hate to say it, perhaps we're not the right fit for you.
They already did?
It was a variation of the "If you don't like it, you don't have to back it" thing, which is an oddly aggressive stance to take...
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Post by: overtyrant
Must of missed that! That's quite a bad attitude to take, it could actually drive people away!
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Post by: -iPaint-
I'm starting to feel like Kickstarter has become this bloated, hype-driven, whiny-pledger-infested mechanism for companies to push a bunch of products in one big go, instead of traditionally releasing them as the funds are available, and I think it hurts their public image when the project grows out of proportion to what they're currently capable of handling, or what they initially set out to do in the KS. Because of these hugely successful campaigns like Reaper, Mantic, Zombicide, Sedition Wars, and Kingdom of Death, KS backers have grown accustomed to "freebies" and "add more stuff to my pledge."
I feel like I'm in the minority with this KS in that I'm just excited to see it finally get here, and if I can get my hands on some nice models at a good price, AND help RH fund future endeavors, then that's all I'm looking for. Extra stuff on top of that is icing on the cake, but I'm not expecting it, and I would dare not complain that RH is NOT giving me free stuff just 2 days into the campaign.
Too many people are complaining about one thing or another because they've chosen to pledge for X, but really they wanted X+Y and three free Z's all thrown in. The entitlement that surrounds some of these KS's is unbelievable. I'm not aiming this at anyone in particular, but it just seems that there's more talk about the lack of stuff than talk about the actual stuff we have...
That said, I'd like to see them consider doing the troops as plastic or semi-plastic/resin kits, as the DreamForge KS kits are so well designed that I think RH could really pin down their own little corner of the market with some quality sculpts in plastic at a cost-effective price point. I am also anxious to see the bikes and mechs for all three factions. I may have to do an alternate-universe WWI styled skirmish game with these models, or some gritty post-apoc stuff.
~iPaint
edit: grammar
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Post by: UNCLEBADTOUCH
Alpharius wrote:Creator Loud'n Raging less than a minute ago
@Jeff @Buzzsaw @Abe @Don E and perhaps others we may have missed…
A project like this does not work on a cost per miniature tooling. Beyond tooling, it's 3 full-time staff plus several full-time freelancers, and, at Raging Heroes, hours, days, and months spent on designing and sculpting. We have spread the entire project costs over the whole Kickstarter. Also, as we stated in the video, we are developing more than miniatures here, and the extra funding, if we get it, will be used for that.
We've sought to develop 3 full armies with a lot of production value, and have discounted the prices from 20 to 40% right off the bat, before any extra deals such as extra minis in higher pledge levels, freebies, and free upgrades.
All of our customers and people who work with us know that we are transparent and honest about our practices. If however we've failed to convince you, and you feel cheated in some way, then, as much as we hate to say it, perhaps we're not the right fit for you.
They already did?
It was a variation of the "If you don't like it, you don't have to back it" thing, which is an oddly aggressive stance to take...
Doesn't come over as aggressive to me if I go to an Indian restaurant and start hollering how I don't like Indian food so you better cook me some Chinese I would expect to told that I might want to look elsewhere rather than expecting them to start cooking Chinese food. If they happen to make a change that you like we'll that's just an added bonus.
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
overtyrant wrote:Must of missed that! That's quite a bad attitude to take, it could actually drive people away!
If the could drive 3 or 4 of the most vocal 'I want your to run your KS THIS way, and will say so every 2 minutes' I'd be very, very happy
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Post by: Alpharius
That's great news!
You should read through the comments section and see how many of their 'official' representatives are carrying themselves...
Also:
Creator Loud'n Raging 9 minutes ago
OK, as one of you has so kindly suggested, we're going to grab a bite and prepare some updates.
And maybe cool down a bit ;-)
Looks like maybe they realize it too.
Maybe they'll go have some Indian food...
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Post by: Buzzsaw
overtyrant wrote:
With all due respect to RH, this answer is preposterous. The clear implication there is that they intended to always have $20-35,000 stretch goals to unlock individual models, an astonishingly inflated number. That is not a statement without context: thanks to innumerable other campaigns we have a very good idea how much it costs to tool molds for metal models (for a very nearly analogous campaign, one will note that Bombshell Miniatures was able to sculpt and tool each individual miniature for about $5k throughout their campaign).
To recopy my question to them in the comments;
@Loud'n Raging;
"@Don E "@Buzzsaw2 good luck getting your questions answered it seems they do a great job evading a response to "Freebies and Stretch Goals"
Did we not just answer the question about the Stretch Goals?"
With due respect, I don't believe that you did. From previous kickstarter campaigns we have a fairly good idea of how much it costs to sculpt and tool a single metal model (Bombshell Miniatures, for example, had $5k stretch goals from beginning to end). It costs approximately what they originally were listed at, $4-5k.
Now a single model costs $35,000 to be made available?
Note that this is not analogous to previous campaigns such as Reaper's Bones, where stretch goals had to become progressively farther apart because each stretch goal achieved meant another miniature was owed to the backers.
By contrast, the $35,000 stretch between Mimi the Radio ($225,000) and Ludmilla Magdanova ($260,000) simply allows a backer to add her... for $10.
Let me know how you got on.
Heh, as Alpharius observes, it did not appear to have gone over well!
Alpharius wrote:Have to admit, I wasn't expecting this one:
Creator Loud'n Raging less than a minute ago
@Jeff @Buzzsaw @Abe @Don E and perhaps others we may have missed…
A project like this does not work on a cost per miniature tooling. Beyond tooling, it's 3 full-time staff plus several full-time freelancers, and, at Raging Heroes, hours, days, and months spent on designing and sculpting. We have spread the entire project costs over the whole Kickstarter. Also, as we stated in the video, we are developing more than miniatures here, and the extra funding, if we get it, will be used for that.
We've sought to develop 3 full armies with a lot of production value, and have discounted the prices from 20 to 40% right off the bat, before any extra deals such as extra minis in higher pledge levels, freebies, and free upgrades.
All of our customers and people who work with us know that we are transparent and honest about our practices. If however we've failed to convince you, and you feel cheated in some way, then, as much as we hate to say it, perhaps we're not the right fit for you.
Ah, it reminds me of the heady days of Through the Breach!
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Post by: recruittons
Maybe they'll catch a biscuit, too!
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Post by: BrookM
Looks like the actual updates don't happen until the end of the day then.
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Post by: overtyrant
 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:overtyrant wrote:Must of missed that! That's quite a bad attitude to take, it could actually drive people away!
If the could drive 3 or 4 of the most vocal 'I want your to run your KS THIS way, and will say so every 2 minutes' I'd be very, very happy
Then im afraid you're not going to be a happy person at all. We are all entitled to our opinion and I'm not actually posting stuff every 2 min so there lol 
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Post by: KalashnikovMarine
 Buzzsaw wrote: Minx wrote:
As long as there are no kickstarter rules regarding the spacing of stretch goals even buzzsaw won't be able to predict the future. There is no necessary dependence on old data, i.e. they can choose any interval they feel like.
In all seriousness, I am very interested in doing a post mortem on this campaign eventually, but as it is still in it's infancy, I'll hold of on any definitive statements.
That said, there is an important consideration that Loud'n Raging (I think I have their brickwall punk album...) needs to bare in mind: a volcanic start can be the result of any number of factors, but it is no guarantee of the continued strength of the campaign. Consider the available data in light of two relatively recent paradigms;
Raging Heroes - The Toughest Girls of the Galaxy;
Through the Breach: A Malifaux Roleplaying Game
Deadzone: The Sci-fi Miniatures Board Game
As one can see above, an initial spike of pledges has little bearing on the shape of the remaining campaign.
Some little things that ( IMO) Raging Heroes needs to be cognizant of;
-"Stealth updates"; Kickstarter has an ideal system for both keeping the pledge base aware of new developments and providing an easy illustration of campaign momentum, the update. While some people can be irritated by many update emails from KS, it also is an easy way to build interest in others.
--How many new pledges for Deadzone were garnered by a friend forwarding the announcement of that "just perfect" new stretch goal? How many people were reassured by Mantic's ability to communicate (if there is one element of Mantic that is consistently praised, it is their appearance of openness and responsiveness)?
-"Value perception"; RH has constructed this campaign in a very restrictive fashion, with the bundles offering fairly scant value thus far above simply buying things piecemeal. It is also noteworthy that gaps between stretch goals seem largely arbitrary: consider the current sequence;
The initial post had stretch goals for individual figures spaced $4-5000 apart. Why does it now take $20-25-30-35,000 to tool a single new model? With campaigns such as Reaper's Bones this was easily understandable, as the higher the total number of Vampire pledges, the more figures they would be required to produce and include for no additional cost. But that is not the case here: with each unlock, figures are being tooled, but the responsibility to the backers does not increase.
That is, the moment the campaign opened a Commander pledge
This pledge received $50 worth of heroines, $90 worth of troops and $90 worth of support.
$280,000 later, that pledge is still worth exactly the same.
With that model, there seems to be no reason whatsoever for the stretch goals now to be spaced differently then they were initially.
It's also somewhat troubling that the "unlocked freebies" still remains an empty set...
But in any case, much still to see.
As usual Buzzsaw provides excellent analysis.
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Post by: Tannhauser42
I agree with ipaint. I pledged for what I pledged for. Any extras are just that: extras. I'm already getting a good value for my money as it stands now.
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Post by: cincydooley
 -iPaint- wrote:I'm starting to feel like Kickstarter has become this bloated, hype-driven, whiny-pledger-infested mechanism for companies to push a bunch of products in one big go, instead of traditionally releasing them as the funds are available, and I think it hurts their public image when the project grows out of proportion to what they're currently capable of handling, or what they initially set out to do in the KS. Because of these hugely successful campaigns like Reaper, Mantic, Zombicide, Sedition Wars, and Kingdom of Death, KS backers have grown accustomed to "freebies" and "add more stuff to my pledge."
I feel like I'm in the minority with this KS in that I'm just excited to see it finally get here, and if I can get my hands on some nice models at a good price, AND help RH fund future endeavors, then that's all I'm looking for. Extra stuff on top of that is icing on the cake, but I'm not expecting it, and I would dare not complain that RH is NOT giving me free stuff just 2 days into the campaign.
Too many people are complaining about one thing or another because they've chosen to pledge for X, but really they wanted X+Y and three free Z's all thrown in. The entitlement that surrounds some of these KS's is unbelievable. I'm not aiming this at anyone in particular, but it just seems that there's more talk about the lack of stuff than talk about the actual stuff we have...
That said, I'd like to see them consider doing the troops as plastic or semi-plastic/resin kits, as the DreamForge KS kits are so well designed that I think RH could really pin down their own little corner of the market with some quality sculpts in plastic at a cost-effective price point. I am also anxious to see the bikes and mechs for all three factions. I may have to do an alternate-universe WWI styled skirmish game with these models, or some gritty post- apoc stuff.
~iPaint
edit: grammar
There's ridiculous overentitlement in every KS. It's the nature of the beast and a microcosm of the United States as a whole at this point.
With that being said, I think you're missing the point about a lot of the complaints here. Most of them are directed at their poor communication/planning.
All of those KS projects you listed are brilliant exemplars of how a KS in this hobby market should be run. Not because of the freebies, but because of the clear communication and timely updates. The fact that they've been "planning" this for 9 months and are unable to do either of these two very basic things to manage the KS doesn't exactly instill me with any optimism to their ability to make dates, not frakk stuff up, etc. But seriously. The blueprint is freakin there. There's precedent for KS projects with cool miniatures doing a ton of business. They should have stretch goals and updates ready to go in a Word file, or a PDF, or a PPT so they can simply copy and paste them into KS, you know, if they've really been "planning" this for 9 months.
Why does all that matter? Because being disorganized doesn't instill confidence.
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Post by: Alpharius
cincydooley - exactly!
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Post by: Vhalan
I wonder if this KS will start to flatline with responses like that. The value of pledges other then EBs begins to grow dubious if there are not add on's and free things. Yes there is that 45$ dollar (27%) discount (after shipping) on a 165$ pledge but if the line is successful (and goes to plastic) then wont other (re: online) retailers carry the line and offer discounts? Dreamforge did, would RH not?
If the total 'savings' can be distilled to saving 10% now on an unknown vs. buying a known commodity later, does getting one less hero mini on a spend of 165$ really justify the money now?
If I did not grab an EB 150$ LT and possibly have someone interested in buying a kit or two and defraying some of the shipping, I would be sitting this one out.
It's day 2, there are 31 days to go, so hopefully the 'surprise' start evens out and the value becomes apparent.
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Post by: Buzzsaw
I present then for evaluation, my latest comment;
@Abe, @Christopher: I would further point out that my main reference (mentioned in my second post) is the Bombshell Babes project by Bombshell Miniatures. I bring this up because the argument "they are making a new line" seems somehow inadequate when the Bombshell campaign facilitated not just sculpting, tooling, casting and distribution, but the very launch of the company!
It's also worth pointing out that there are are 40 or so shadowed outlines on the front page. If they were to be stretch goal'd at the $20,000 that appears to be the new minimum, to just unlock those (not counting any freebies) would require an additional... $800,000(!).
Mind you, that is simply to make available everything that they originally planned (which seems... odd).
For those interested in more in-depth thoughts on the matter, I would point you to http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/660/530736.page#5702964 (it has pretty graphs!).
And finally, for those inclined to think this pointless criticism, I do really want this project to succeed. Why I am stating my opinion is quite simple: constructive criticism being taken can make tens, perhaps hundreds of thousands of dollars of difference in a KS campaign. I have seen this firsthand.
The notion that the best way to deal with criticism is to drive out the maker seems... odd.
In all seriousness, as I point out, just using the new minimum numbers for stretch goals ($20k), this project needs to go north of $1 million just to open all the known items! That doesn't include any freebies, add-ons or other miscellany.
I am, hard as it may be to believe, actually very interested in this project. That's why I want it to be as well run, and as good a value, as it possibly can be.
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Post by: decker_cky
The freebies are an optics thing too. If Raging Heroes really put in the research, they should have expected this. If the discount is so spectacular that they can't add more, hold back some. 1 less hero to every set, then when we hit $200k, add a free hero. Worse than that, for a company shocked that people want free additions, they probably shouldn't advertise freebies 40 times on the project homepage. I also seem to remember seeing a pre-campaign comment that the discount was 30-40% before unlocking freebies - clearly giving the expectation of more freebies.
I'll stick around for now, but really, it seems like Raging Heroes is making this just a pure preorder platform. They knew what they were going to release, and they give a bit of a discount for it. If that's the plan, they should expect to get called out for it.
Also, if you have a kickstarter delayed (but continued to hype) for 6 months, why haven't you pre-written the updates you know you'll need? Once again, lack of organization.
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Post by: Vhalan
cincydooley wrote: There's ridiculous overentitlement in every KS. It's the nature of the beast and a microcosm of the United States as a whole at this point.
KS contains risk. As a backer, I provide money now for product 'in the future' with no recourse to recover my money should the company close down and go away (or go to a casino and put it all on black). If the pitch is: cash now to pay near retail pricing later then what is the value?
KS is a means to entice money to make projects a reality. That enticement comes in the form of free things and things that wont be availible to people who wait for retail.
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Post by: Mathieu Raymond
As much as I love the posts by Wallapious linking to his blog, I'd have much prefered to get a peek at painted minis from this KS. As has been pointed out by more important contributors than I, if they had 9 months to plan it, shouldn't a bit of that budget have gone towards making a few of the minis and having them painted?
For crying out loud, even Prodos was able to provide that in the Warzone KS. They even had time to send minis to a blogger so we could all see them.
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Post by: overtyrant
Buzzsaw wrote:I present then for evaluation, my latest comment;
@Abe, @Christopher: I would further point out that my main reference (mentioned in my second post) is the Bombshell Babes project by Bombshell Miniatures. I bring this up because the argument "they are making a new line" seems somehow inadequate when the Bombshell campaign facilitated not just sculpting, tooling, casting and distribution, but the very launch of the company!
It's also worth pointing out that there are are 40 or so shadowed outlines on the front page. If they were to be stretch goal'd at the $20,000 that appears to be the new minimum, to just unlock those (not counting any freebies) would require an additional... $800,000(!).
Mind you, that is simply to make available everything that they originally planned (which seems... odd).
For those interested in more in-depth thoughts on the matter, I would point you to http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/660/530736.page#5702964 (it has pretty graphs!).
And finally, for those inclined to think this pointless criticism, I do really want this project to succeed. Why I am stating my opinion is quite simple: constructive criticism being taken can make tens, perhaps hundreds of thousands of dollars of difference in a KS campaign. I have seen this firsthand.
The notion that the best way to deal with criticism is to drive out the maker seems... odd.
In all seriousness, as I point out, just using the new minimum numbers for stretch goals ($20k), this project needs to go north of $1 million just to open all the known items! That doesn't include any freebies, add-ons or other miscellany.
I am, hard as it may be to believe, actually very interested in this project. That's why I want it to be as well run, and as good a value, as it possibly can be.
I am actually very interested in how they handle the KS over the next 30 days and find it quite entertaining that most of us on here can have very different ideas on how one should be run. It can become heated at times (I find this highly amusing) and I could come across as annoying to one person but insightful to another (and vice versa). I think the next 30 days may prove quite entertaining for me!
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Post by: Buzzsaw
overtyrant wrote:...
I am actually very interested in how they handle the KS over the next 30 days and find it quite entertaining that most of us on here can have very different ideas on how one should be run. It can become heated at times (I find this highly amusing) and I could come across as annoying to one person but insightful to another (and vice versa). I think the next 30 days may prove quite entertaining for me!
If there is one constant for kickstarters (honestly, constructive criticism in general) it must be that people that are satisfied find it profoundly hard to accept that people that are not satisfied have legitimate criticism.
As an aside for later analysis, it is 5PM East Coast time USA, and the total is $285,466.
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Post by: BrookM
Hang on, wasn't it at 287k a bit ago?
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Post by: silent25
Alpharius wrote: Creator Loud'n Raging 10 minutes ago
@Abe Lincoln with a ShotgunAxe
I'm assuming you are referring to the Stretch Goal Intervals?
We started with a low funding point because we know that when a Kickstarter is funded quickly, it really helps to give the project more visibility. That's the reason why we had planned we had planned several small stretch goal right after that, so that you guys would be able to rapidly see new unlocked minis to get a better feel of how, each army would look and how you would spend your pledge.
At this point in time, we've come back to more normal stretch goal intervals. the only thing that took us by surprise was that we did not think you would unlock those small stretch goals so quickly.
Does that answer your question?
I suppose it does.
Bolded the part above that is really raising a red flag with me. Am I the only one who would read this as meaning the initial funding level had no relevance to actual project cost? Are people throwing money at a deliberately underfunded project because RH wanted to have a KS label with 6000% funded, but doesn't reflect the real cost?
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Post by: DaveC
There's not a hope in hell that $12,000 would cover the initial 6 Heroines, 1 KS exclusive, 3 Troops and 3 Support boxes.
6 Heroines plus 1 KS @$5k each = $35,000
6 Troops/Support boxes - larger molds $10k to $15k - say $10k each = $60,000
That's $95,000 tooling only - no design and no production costs either I think the real figure is closer to $120,000 and they took 10% of that figure to get things funded quickly and hit high funded %
I haven't backed this yet I logged on the momnet it went live had a look and went nope the pledge level set up is not for me and left it. I only want 5 of the Heroines as a painting project but most are still locked and the $20 postage is really putting me off, i can get Raging Heroes stuff free post if I spend £30 or more online right now. (I know that's been covered already it's just were I'm at) definite last minute decision on this one I think. It's fun to follow the comments though
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Post by: HisDivineShadow
Its common to start with an under later goal. Being "funded" increases pledges.
I wasn't I in Deadzone because the aesthetic just wasn't for me. But I did watch the KSer. it, despite the sculpts not matching concepts thing was well run.
Stretch goals that add value to pledge levels don't just get new people, but encourages current backers to pledge just a bit more.and a bit more. That human psychology. Once committed to something, getting a little more out of you here are there is easy for us to accept. Its just how we are wired. If they'd take that approach, we'd easily smash 1 million. As is, it looks like it could break 1 mil or stall out. There is no incentive for me to pledge just a bit more. I can only sit back and hope what I want unlocks.
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Post by: decker_cky
silent25 wrote:Bolded the part above that is really raising a red flag with me. Am I the only one who would read this as meaning the initial funding level had no relevance to actual project cost? Are people throwing money at a deliberately underfunded project because RH wanted to have a KS label with 6000% funded, but doesn't reflect the real cost?
That's pretty normal, and shouldn't be a concern. All it means is that if this only got a low funding level, RH was willing to foot the rest of the bill. And it makes sense for them to recoup that amount over the length of the Kickstarter. For what's open now though, there's no chance it's underfunded anymore, so that excuse doesn't really fly anymore.
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Post by: Grot 6
Vhalan wrote: cincydooley wrote: There's ridiculous overentitlement in every KS. It's the nature of the beast and a microcosm of the United States as a whole at this point.
KS contains risk. As a backer, I provide money now for product 'in the future' with no recourse to recover my money should the company close down and go away (or go to a casino and put it all on black). If the pitch is: cash now to pay near retail pricing later then what is the value?
KS is a means to entice money to make projects a reality. That enticement comes in the form of free things and things that wont be availible to people who wait for retail.
Cincydooley is on the money with his whole post. Point to impact on the statement quoted is pretty much dead on. I've been in on quite a few and one of the things that really sticks in my craw is the blatant assclownery that people spout out in there in the postings of this or that comment section. If I could reach through the screen and rip out someone's face from time to time, I'd have a collection of skin suits. I totally agree with that opinion of the over inflated sense of me, me, me and mine. People need to know walking in that we are banking on a real life project in production and design, not on free, free, free, the greedy gits.
Delays happen, it is the nature of the beast. We throw down hard earned coin for a vision or a project. The fact that the project happens is the point.
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Post by: silent25
decker_cky wrote:silent25 wrote:Bolded the part above that is really raising a red flag with me. Am I the only one who would read this as meaning the initial funding level had no relevance to actual project cost? Are people throwing money at a deliberately underfunded project because RH wanted to have a KS label with 6000% funded, but doesn't reflect the real cost?
That's pretty normal, and shouldn't be a concern. All it means is that if this only got a low funding level, RH was willing to foot the rest of the bill. And it makes sense for them to recoup that amount over the length of the Kickstarter. For what's open now though, there's no chance it's underfunded anymore, so that excuse doesn't really fly anymore.
Oh I don't doubt it is funded now, but that there is no correlation between goals and actual costs does bode well. What is the actual costs for the campaign then? Do they really know the costs or are they just making up things as they go? Creating hype is one thing, delivering on it is another. Would RH been able to deliver on an underfunded KS?
The whole "nine months of planning" doesn't show, but that is already been talked about.
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Post by: PsychoticStorm
While I understand the concern and the reasoning, I am willing to give them time to adjust and understand how kickstarter really works.
They seem to have prepared a lot, but not prepared for kickstarter, went to assumptions from their limited customers and supporters base, the bulk of the kickstarter is not them its people who have never interacted with them like me and many from here, personally I think however you try to prepare for a kickstarter, the first run will always be problematic and the adaptability to the ever changing situation will be the key factor in its success.
Can they do it? I sure hope so, time will tell, good for them its very early.
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Post by: Creeping Dementia
Personally, the models that RH puts out have always been more than impressive and its the reason I'm supporting them, freebies and stuff are good but not the reason I'm in on the Kickstarter. I mainly just want to get my hands on more models made by RH. Whatever real or imagined drama that might go on on the internets doesn't change the high quality of their product, or the excellent customer service I've experienced in the past. I'm just thrilled I'm going to have a ton of new models to paint in the future, and hopefully all the ones I want get unlocked.
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Post by: PanzerTC
I've jumped in on this. I am starting to get unsettled by project. For 9 months of prep work - it seems lacking in responses to the concerns. It was off to a rough start (for me) when it did not launch in time and I did not get the Early birds options I wanted. I blame it more on KS and a failure they have in anticipating the volume of people involved with some of these KS projects.
I do think the company was overwhelmed by the response to date. But they seem to be slow to respond compared to other KS - which I admit is not fair, but human nature since I just came off the Mantic DZ.
They have 30 more days and at least seem poised to be funded for the initial project. I share many of the concerns/doubts (as early as they are) in the rewards levels for the investment. Acknowledging the percentages off. The shipping is an issue as most of the KS I have been involved in have the US and most of Europe included in the basic package. I also note the many who point out the "sweet spot" packages of about $150 - $200 as an investment.
If I do not like it in the last 48 hours or so I will pull out. My main sticking point is I do not think I can integrate these into my existing armies well. I have no desire for a new set of game rules or books unless they are free - which I highly doubt with the setup to date.
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Post by: Vhalan
 Grot 6 wrote: People need to know walking in that we are banking on a real life project in production and design, not on free, free, free, the greedy gits.
Then maybe the company doing the KS should go get a loan and build up production the old fashioned way? Or do like Victoria Mini's and other companies do and build out slowly as they grow the biz?
Go look up venture capitol firms. They dont invent money to get a 0 rate of return. People backing a KS are essentially investors into a company. I give you funds, you build out your lines and provide X in return. If X return = retail, I have given you money now, for product in the future, at no better cost then if I would have waited for retail. I took all the risk and that risk earned a 0 return and possibly a negative return as when the company sells to discounters, my 16.50$ mini could now be purchased for 12$.
That being said, I am not defending people who want to buy for 1$ hundreds of things. I am questioning the value proposition that RH has put forth. I am a backer, I get to offer money and be concerned that 285k later, my money hasnt gained much value from when I plunked it down on day 1.
Other projects Ive backed:
Kings of War
Bones
Zombicide 2
Arena Rex
Myth
In those other campaigns, my initial money down became a lot more valuable by the end of the run. I was also a backer of Thon, which crapped out, and has some similarities to this one.
I like the art, I like their other stuff. I want this one to be sucessful but at the same time, I think asking to see some of the freebies that have been promoted prior to launch is a fair thing to ask for.
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Post by: Joyboozer
EB opening soon guys, I'm out.
It's not the lack of value, it's Raging Heroes themselves. I love their stuff, but they're hopeless.
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Post by: gohkm
Based on what I've been reading from RH on their comments, I think I will yank my pledge for this one. The sheer arrogance!
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Post by: Breotan
I addressed much of the nonsense and ragequit posting last December in the Malifaux RPG kickstarter thread. Here it is again for your enjoyment.  Breotan wrote:The standard for pledging should be, "Am I getting my money's worth for what is being offered in this kickstarter?"
Anyone who pulls their pledge because the owners aren't engaging in the best customer service in the world are really missing the point. You don't give up any money until the end of the kickstarter. Just ignore all the stupidity on the forums, come back in a month, take a look at where everything stands and THEN make a decision based on the suggestion I offered back in Dec.
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Post by: KalashnikovMarine
"some people on kickstarter are asking if the distance between stretch goals or the value of them will lessen a bit if backing seems to die down"
Here was our reply:
"
Before we left for home yesterday, we slightly upped the stretch goal intervals because we had no way of knowing what might happen while we were sleeping, and we did not want to leave pledgers with nothing to look for if the surge had continued.
And yet, we passed one SG earlier today, and are about to pass another one now. So 2 stretch goals in less than a day ain't so bad…
That being said, the next intervals are likely to be smaller, now that things are moving at a more sedate pace.
We do have a plan and we're confident that all will work well. But, as we say in France, only fools never change their minds ;-)
So if adjustments are required, we, like the Borg, will adapt
"
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Post by: decker_cky
Pulling your pledge because you dislike the creator or were unhappy with customer service is fully legit.
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Post by: PsychoticStorm
I will not disagree, but would give them time first, this is great with kickstarter, you can wait a bit before deciding.
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Post by: HisDivineShadow
Sheer arrogance? Please explain
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Post by: Breotan
decker_cky wrote:Pulling your pledge because you dislike the creator or were unhappy with customer service is fully legit.
Never claimed it wasn't legit, just not a very smart play and rather childish, imo, especially this early on. But I suppose it isn't a real kickstarter until someone ragequits and runs to the forums about it.
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Post by: Ouze
Breotan wrote:You don't give up any money until the end of the kickstarter. Just ignore all the stupidity on the forums, come back in a month, take a look at where everything stands and THEN make a decision based on the suggestion I offered back in Dec.
Indeed.
While I don't see any harm in critiquing their efforts on the fora (I mean, that's what forums are for, really) I see my own pledge as sort of a bookmark, a placeholder for an EB pledge that I may decide to keep, increase; or withhold entirely, in a month. So despite what things I say positive or negative in the interim I won't evaluate my personal position on my investment for weeks.
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Post by: gohkm
Respectfully, Breotan, I disagree.
I suppose it all boils down to one's priority in what is a driver in the purchase. Personally, I buy things because customer service is great. If the customer service isn't great, I will walk away, no matter how good a deal it is - and I have done this, in countless bricks-and-mortar stores. A webstore (or Kickstarter) is still, largely, a store, and customer service still matters greatly to me.
With RH adopting what I read as a "if you don't like it, you know where to go" stance, I find it a fairly offensive attitude to take, particularly when, in this Kickstarter, customers are being enticed to front up cash for a future product.
If RH cannot be bothered to even be humble just that little bit, I cannot be bothered to front up the cash they are asking for.
But, it's a very individual thing - as Russell Peters tends to say, "whatever makes you happy".
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Post by: vic
Can someone please tell me where I can see these minis? I am yet to see one single actual physical miniature that will be available to backers.
Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:From past experience their 3D sculpts tend to pretty danged accurate of the final product Vic, so those first few they have shown are good enough for me.
Also, I have been asking you to do female figs for bloody ages, there is a market out there, which this Kickstarter is proving without any doubt.
Yes, I am all too aware of the market, and I greatly appreciate people like yourself who have contacted me with requests. I have several WIP female troopers on my desk. Problem is, that it takes "bloody ages" to sculpt actual, physical miniatures. Unfortunately for me, my business so far has run on the principle of only taking money from my customers for products that actually exist.
I note this campaign is labelled "France" , does anyone know if there has been a change in the KS rule that only UK and US citizens can run campaigns. As an Aussie, I would love this rule to change.
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Post by: deleted20250424
Has anyone considered that any perceived insult, slight, miscommunication, arrogance, or attitude might be a result of translation or expression errors due to the fact that English is not their native language?
Not making an excuse here, but I see it a lot on Indegogo.
Misusing or incorrectly phrasing words or expressions in English is very common if it's not a persons native tongue.
Hell, half the time people can't even tell when someone is being sarcastic in a text response on a forum.
I have the KS bookmarked. I'm avoiding the comments section based solely on the fact that Brian Blessed is active.
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Post by: Krinsath
vic wrote:
I note this campaign is labelled "France" , does anyone know if there has been a change in the KS rule that only UK and US citizens can run campaigns. As an Aussie, I would love this rule to change.
I believe a goodly chunk of time in the 4 month launch delay was getting a US presence established so they could use KS. This is like how Mantic is in Nottingham, but their KS account is actually "based" in Maryland.
The games nations play... 
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Post by: Ouze
I didn't see the "This kickstarter might not be a good fit for you" comment to be as offensive as others appear to have. Maybe I missed a different one?
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Post by: Joyboozer
It's not a rage quit, I made my decision based on both my past experiences with raging heroes and the lead up to the launch of this campaign. Seeing them struggle now is just the last reason I needed to say no thanks.
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Post by: Breotan
 TalonZahn wrote:Has anyone considered that any perceived insult, slight, miscommunication, arrogance, or attitude might be a result of translation or expression errors due to the fact that English is not their native language?
You're just being silly now. Everybody knows this never happens. With written text. Absent personal interaction. On the internet. Forums. Ever.
And even if it did, it's obviously RH's fault for not anticipating that and hiring a tenured English professor to write their posts for them.
Right?
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Post by: deleted20250424
Breotan wrote: TalonZahn wrote:Has anyone considered that any perceived insult, slight, miscommunication, arrogance, or attitude might be a result of translation or expression errors due to the fact that English is not their native language?
You're just being silly now. Everybody knows this never happens. With written text. Absent personal interaction. On the internet. Forums. Ever.
And even if it did, it's obviously RH's fault for not anticipating that and hiring a tenured English professor to write their posts for them.
Right?
Well, I knew YOU'D get it.
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Post by: Minx
Is there a way to filter the comment section on the KS page? Or at least ignore some peoples "input"? Most of the comments are not even on topic and bury the sparse information :(
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Post by: Morathi's Darkest Sin
vic wrote:
Yes, I am all too aware of the market, and I greatly appreciate people like yourself who have contacted me with requests. I have several WIP female troopers on my desk. Problem is, that it takes "bloody ages" to sculpt actual, physical miniatures. Unfortunately for me, my business so far has run on the principle of only taking money from my customers for products that actually exist.
That's a totally fair comment, and very good to hear by the way. Models on the desk I mean. I hope you take some solace from the fact when they do indeed arrive you'll be getting a good chuck of cash from me also.
As to Kickstarter, they remind me of ebay to a degree, some odd calls, their way is the best way, slow to react to how things are moving, but still annoyingly raking in a ton of cash. You'd think they'd be trying to move this into as many markets as possible, while improving how their site works and interacts for traders and backers alike.
Hopefully eventually.
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Post by: Alpharius
Breotan wrote: TalonZahn wrote:Has anyone considered that any perceived insult, slight, miscommunication, arrogance, or attitude might be a result of translation or expression errors due to the fact that English is not their native language?
You're just being silly now. Everybody knows this never happens. With written text. Absent personal interaction. On the internet. Forums. Ever.
And even if it did, it's obviously RH's fault for not anticipating that and hiring a tenured English professor to write their posts for them.
Right?
I'm pretty sure that no substantive updates for 2 full days and $287K crosses all cultural and language barriers.
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Post by: Ouze
One thing I'd really like to see, that Kickstarter has not yet implemented, would be a optional cap or cutoff on funds that creators could pick, or that halts further pledges or at least slows them down and allows them to re-jigger the project or just successfully end it early if they hit X percentage of goal.
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Post by: Alpharius
That and a comments section that makes sense and is actually readable.
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Post by: Ouze
Alpharius wrote:I'm pretty sure that no substantive updates for 2 full days and $287K crosses all cultural and language barriers.
What would you consider to be a substantive update? i.e. what precisely is it you'd like to see them say?
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Post by: Tannhauser42
Ouze wrote:I didn't see the "This kickstarter might not be a good fit for you" comment to be as offensive as others appear to have. Maybe I missed a different one?
Yeah, I didn't see anything offensive in that, either. I think it's ultimately a case of "you didn't bend over backwards enough to satisfy my sense of immediate gratification and entitlement, so I'm taking my ball(money) and going home."
Some people are never satisfied. Look at the comments on Reaper's project: people are whining about how much time since the last update, despite the last update being quite clear as to what the status is, and the expected amount of time before that status will change.
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Post by: Baronyu
Is there a reason why the shipping cost so much for this? I'm sure 11.50 Euros* doesn't translate to $20... I might just wait for the items to come up on their site as currently, I'd have to pay more than I would have when they're released on their site...
*This is the flat insured shipping rate via airmail for international orders on their official site.
I'm also in the camp that kickstarter projects should provide some form of "thanks" for early supporters who believe in them rather than, like me, just wait until the product is out, it's just common courtesy. Speaking as a creator myself, not just a customer. But of course, perceived value yadda yadda... Still, would appreciate if anyone know why the shipping is a lot higher in their kickstarter... :(
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Post by: Alpharius
Ouze wrote: Alpharius wrote:I'm pretty sure that no substantive updates for 2 full days and $287K crosses all cultural and language barriers.
What would you consider to be a substantive update? i.e. what precisely is it you'd like to see them say?
Something other than nothing?
Are you just trying to be difficult?
Stir the pot?
WHY SHOULD I TRUST YOU?
Raging Heroes is a very dedicated small French studio which has gained worldwide recognition for the quality of its work.
Our customers keep on praising the quality of our minis and of our customer service, and we work very hard every day to keep it this way;
We are known for asking for and listening to our customers' feedback;
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
Minx wrote:Is there a way to filter the comment section on the KS page? Or at least ignore some peoples "input"? Most of the comments are not even on topic and bury the sparse information :(
you can filter the comments, but you can search for just the comments made by a particular poster (or the project creator) by clicking on their avatar, then selecting comments
here is a direct link to the RH comments
http://www.kickstarter.com/profile/loudnraging/comments
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Post by: Kroothawk
I must say, I am astonished and a bit shocked at the weird and constructed criticism of this campaign:
1.) What? Only 75 individual sculpted minis in the first 24 hours unlocked, most of them multiposed? I want 15 armies at once! Like Dreamforge did (wait!)
2.) Not everything unlocked in the 24 hours like every decent kickstarter does? (I am quite certain, the same people would create a shitstorm if RH indeed unlocked everything in the 24 hours and then had nothing to unlock for the other 31 days of the campaign).
3.) What? 23$ postage for 500-1000$ pledges? I demand them to bring it to my door personally, for free! Every single miniature individually!
4.) Another 40 seconds without any update! And they haven't read the 20 pages on Dakka, and the 600 mails from backers, and only half of the currently 1700 comments on the kickstarter page. What did they do from 1-8 AM in France?
Come on folks. Get real!
Here is a fresh kickstarter by a tiny company that offers you THREE different high quality sculpted, extremely modular, inspiring and never before available ARMIES. I am not even playing Imperial Guard, but even I am enthusiastic about this enrichment of 40k battles. It is fresh, it is inspiring, and it is a great achievement and step forward for the hobby. If this ends at 1,495,000$ instead of 1,500,00 $ because some people can't be satisfied by anything, then so be it. I will enjoy this kickstarter with everyone else enthusiastic about it.
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Post by: deleted20250424
Alpharius wrote:I'm pretty sure that no substantive updates for 2 full days and $287K crosses all cultural and language barriers.
I'm not saying I agree with, or like, some of the things they do or the way the handle certain facets of the KS. I didn't like some of the stuff Palladium did during their KS, or Mantic (twice), but it's not my KS.
It's merely my choice to spend money where I see fit.
I don't begrudge anyone that says; "I don't like their attitude so I'm pulling my pledge!" any more than I would another person saying that was a dumb idea or even the company saying "This is how it is, sorry we can't make everyone happy." The operators of any KS/business have the same rights as we do when it comes to choices they make. Maybe they meant to be arrogant, maybe not. Lots of places in the U.S. still have signs that say; "We reserve the right to refuse anyone." which is a polite way of saying take it or leave, it's our business and this is how we do it.
Your money, your choice. Their business, their choice.
I'm just positing the idea that people maybe take a breath, consider some things, and then decide.
If you've done that and are happy with your choice, Party On!
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Post by: Minx
Thank you very much.
@Alpharius: There were several unlocks ( iirc 14, fourteen), six free upgrades and some FAQs. Seems to be more than nothing
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
Baronyu wrote:Is there a reason why the shipping cost so much for this? I'm sure 11.50 Euros* doesn't translate to $20... I might just wait for the items to come up on their site as currently, I'd have to pay more than I would have when they're released on their site...
*This is the flat insured shipping rate via airmail for international orders on their official site.
I'm also in the camp that kickstarter projects should provide some form of "thanks" for early supporters who believe in them rather than, like me, just wait until the product is out, it's just common courtesy. Speaking as a creator myself, not just a customer. But of course, perceived value yadda yadda... Still, would appreciate if anyone know why the shipping is a lot higher in their kickstarter... :(
Well at the very least the shipping will be 10% or so more expensive for them (from KS/Amazon payment fees), they'll also need additional staff &/or time for packing compared to their normal business
and as the KS stuff is discounted (compared to what they'd sell it for on their webstore) they may not be able to subsidise it as much
(certainly if you only want 2 or 3 minis waiting till retail is the smart move, it's only if you want a decent amount of stuff when it makes sense)
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Post by: gohkm
TalonZahn wrote:\
Your money, your choice. Their business, their choice.
I'm just positing the idea that people maybe take a breath, consider some things, and then decide.
If you've done that and are happy with your choice, Party On!
QFT.
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Post by: Ouze
Baronyu wrote:Is there a reason why the shipping cost so much for this? I'm sure 11.50 Euros* doesn't translate to $20... I might just wait for the items to come up on their site as currently, I'd have to pay more than I would have when they're released on their site...
They're shipping them all insured and registered. If you use the USPS site to calculate a 6oz package to france with those options, it's like $26.
If you want a single figure, you totally don't want to get on this kickstarter. Perhaps start a swap shop thread and see if anyone wants to pool in with you?
Alpharius wrote: Ouze wrote: Alpharius wrote:I'm pretty sure that no substantive updates for 2 full days and $287K crosses all cultural and language barriers.
What would you consider to be a substantive update? i.e. what precisely is it you'd like to see them say?
Something other than nothing?
Are you just trying to be difficult?
Stir the pot?
Not in the least; I assure you. Trolling a mod, in a kickstarter run by a major Dakka advertiser? Come on, I'm dumb but not that dumb.
I have seen the little updates they put out, and there have been a few of them. So I don't think there have been "no updates", just what you state are "no substantive updates". Obviously you're not alone on this since this went so negative so fast, I mean, look at the last 3 pages. So I'm wondering what exactly is the meat of what you're looking for them to say. That there will be freebies at X level? Or something like that; or something additionally? I'm not white knighting for them, I'm genuinely curious as to what you see as the specific communication shortcomings.
If you were unhappy that the communications were confusing, well, that would need no further explanation since the updates I got were confusing as hell.
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Post by: Alpharius
The "Fire and Forget" method works for some - that's great news!
But a crowdfunded projects asks for backers to contribute money in order to help make a project happen.
To expect blind, fawning followers seems... a bit odd.
You take their money, they get to voice their opinions.
This expectation of a one way street seems strange.
Still, as has been said many times - ignore what you want - is all so much shouting into a hurricane anyway!
I find it hard to believe that anyone thinks that RH is doing a good job on the communication front so far though.
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Post by: Kroothawk
Alpharius wrote:I find it hard to believe that anyone thinks that RH is doing a good job on the communication front so far though.
Last time you said that, you had to admit that you haven't read this thread properly. Now you have again forgotten this exact update and all others. Maybe some people don't like this kind of unfairness either.
Why not be constructive and helpfull and as a mod add this update to the first post:
Raging Heroes wrote:What's been unlocked so far?
Update #2 · Jun 4, 2013
Hi again!
We are humbled by what's been happening, achieving, nearly $250,000 and it's not even been 12 hours yet! The first few hours were a total blur. The emotions were overwhelming. Our hands sometimes shook so much we just couldn't type properly on the keyboard. And everything everywhere was calling for our attention, so we were jumping all over the place trying to catch up. There was a moment when we grew so numb that we just sat staring at our computers, not knowing what to click on or what to do... And phone and Skype were merrily ringing every few minutes from friends and family to share their happiness...
But nevertheless, we got quite a few things done...
We've managed to reply to over 100 Kickstarter emails, and that particular mailbox is currently sitting empty! :-)
We've also updated our FAQ (took us over 3 hours to find the button to do this!). We will continue to update it regularly. We also posted replies to our Raging Heralds (bless them all!), who have been relaying recurring questions and concerns and sharing back our replies to the community they belong to.
We also unlocked quite a few many miniatures, without having even the time to Update you about them. As the pledges grew from $12,000 to $225,000, we unlocked 14 stretch goals: 8 Heroines, 2 Troops Boxes, 3 Support boxes, and a 1st pack of Free Upgrades for 6 unlocked Heroines (see images below for detail). Remember that the Free Upgrades apply to ALL pledge levels.
We have also posted the 3 next stretch goals (see images below).
We'll now be off to catch some sleep. We'll of course be back online tomorrow. We want to give you many many many thanks for this unbelievable Kickstarter launch! Thank you for being part of this incredible adventure!
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Post by: Grot 6
Vhalan wrote: Grot 6 wrote: People need to know walking in that we are banking on a real life project in production and design, not on free, free, free, the greedy gits.
Then maybe the company doing the KS should go get a loan and build up production the old fashioned way? Or do like Victoria Mini's and other companies do and build out slowly as they grow the biz?
Go look up venture capitol firms. They dont invent money to get a 0 rate of return. People backing a KS are essentially investors into a company. I give you funds, you build out your lines and provide X in return. If X return = retail, I have given you money now, for product in the future, at no better cost then if I would have waited for retail. I took all the risk and that risk earned a 0 return and possibly a negative return as when the company sells to discounters, my 16.50$ mini could now be purchased for 12$.
That being said, I am not defending people who want to buy for 1$ hundreds of things. I am questioning the value proposition that RH has put forth. I am a backer, I get to offer money and be concerned that 285k later, my money hasnt gained much value from when I plunked it down on day 1.
Other projects Ive backed:
Kings of War
Bones
Zombicide 2
Arena Rex
Myth
In those other campaigns, my initial money down became a lot more valuable by the end of the run. I was also a backer of Thon, which crapped out, and has some similarities to this one.
I like the art, I like their other stuff. I want this one to be sucessful but at the same time, I think asking to see some of the freebies that have been promoted prior to launch is a fair thing to ask for.
No they are not.
All you are doing is backing a project, not helping fund the company. If that is your personal take, you might want to step back or just face the disappointment that the stutter steps are inevitable, and every plan is foolproof until contact. KS is a cheap way to get cash for a project. HOWEVER You have to have a plan, because once the ball is in play, markets and real life take it over.
Want examples?
Bones
Kings of War
etc.
etc.
etc.
A company or individual has to have a plan and a well thought out road ahead to be successful. Same as any other project in real life.
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Post by: Alpharius
 Kroothawk wrote: Alpharius wrote:I find it hard to believe that anyone thinks that RH is doing a good job on the communication front so far though.
Last time you said that, you had to admit that you haven't read this thread properly. Now you have again forgotten this exact update and all others. Maybe some people don't like this kind of unfairness either.
I realize it is late in Germany and all that, but you really have no idea what you're talking about here - and I'll admit, that's odd!
Anyway, the rumor is that we'll be getting update #3 anytime now!
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Post by: deleted20250424
Grot 6 wrote:All you are doing is backing a project, not helping fund the company. If that is your personal take, you might want to step back or just face the disappointment that the stutter steps are inevitable, and every plan is foolproof until contact. KS is a cheap way to get cash for a project. HOWEVER You have to have a plan, because once the ball is in play, markets and real life take it over.
Moltke's Theory of War:
Moltke's main thesis was that military strategy had to be understood as a system of options since only the beginning of a military operation was plannable. As a result, he considered the main task of military leaders to consist in the extensive preparation of all possible outcomes. His thesis can be summed up by two statements, one famous and one less so, translated into English as "No plan of operations extends with certainty beyond the first encounter with the enemy's main strength" (or "no plan survives contact with the enemy,") and "Strategy is a system of expedients."
You can plan all day, but when the rubber meets the road it's entirely new game.
In anything, anytime, anywhere in life.
I promise you that.
[Edit] In case it wasn't clear, I'm agreeing with Grot.
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Post by: Kroothawk
Maybe I am too busy to be constructive and actually post the updates than to just read troll post on 4chan and kickstarter comments.
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Post by: Alpharius
Kroothawk wrote:Maybe I am too busy to be constructive and actually post the updates than to just read troll post on 4chan and kickstarter comments.
I suppose we'll have to take your word for that?
Anyway, since it is now 2:00AM in France, I guess that update will wait until tomorrow?
I'm looking forward to it!
I wonder if they will eventually be any characters on bikes or mechs?
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Post by: Kroothawk
Again: It would be helpful if you could copy the RH update I formatted to the first post, so that everyone knows about the updates and unlocks so far.
Keep in mind that pics go offline once the goals are unlocked (and then replaced with an "unlocked" version". Will happen soon with the heavy troops and certainly soon with the next goal as well.
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Post by: Ouze
I'm pretty excited about the (alleged) Jailbird mech. I mean, it might be butt-ugly, who knows, but I'm predisposed to like mechs. So I'm cautiously optimistic.
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Post by: Mathieu Raymond
Honestly, from a few interactions with them on Facebook, they were just as annoying in French. It came across as if they felt entitled to the adulation of the masses.
I'm in, but not sure if I'll stay.
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Post by: DaveC
In fairness to Alpharius this an official Raging Heroes thread started by them I don't see why a Mod should have to keep their first post up to date if they aren't going to that duty should have been given to someone with the time to do so.
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Post by: Baronyu
Ouze wrote:Baronyu wrote:Is there a reason why the shipping cost so much for this? I'm sure 11.50 Euros* doesn't translate to $20... I might just wait for the items to come up on their site as currently, I'd have to pay more than I would have when they're released on their site...
They're shipping them all insured and registered. If you use the USPS site to calculate a 6oz package to france with those options, it's like $26.
If you want a single figure, you totally don't want to get on this kickstarter. Perhaps start a swap shop thread and see if anyone wants to pool in with you?
Well, that 11.50 euros is from their site, insured and a flat rate for all international order regardless of size as well. But I guess they're using a faster service or something for this KS.
Thanks for the reply.
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Post by: Ouze
Baronyu wrote:Well, that 11.50 euros is from their site, insured and a flat rate for all international order regardless of size as well. But I guess they're using a faster service or something for this KS.
Thanks for the reply.
I'm sorry, I think I misunderstood your initial post. You raise an excellent point, I now see - if you go to Ragingheroes.com right now, insured and registered shipping is indeed $13. That is quite a discrepancy in retrospect - I never looked at the site, only went to the USPS shipping calc.
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Post by: Alpharius
 DaveC wrote:In fairness to Alpharius this an official Raging Heroes thread started by them I don't see why a Mod should have to keep their first post up to date if they aren't going to that duty should have been given to someone with the time to do so.
Pretty much.
They've got the Raging Heralds to do that.
Not to mention an 'official' presence here as well.
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Post by: Kroothawk
DaveC wrote:In fairness to Alpharius this an official Raging Heroes thread started by them I don't see why a Mod should have to keep their first post up to date if they aren't going to that duty should have been given to someone with the time to do so.
I have heard, the 2 or 3 Raging Heroes staff are busy. And it is 2.23 AM here. And it is not my duty to reformat their update either, I am just trying to be helpful.
And the Raging Heralds (and I) lack the mod status allowing them to update the first post.
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Post by: PanzerTC
 Mathieu Raymond wrote:Honestly, from a few interactions with them on Facebook, they were just as annoying in French. It came across as if they felt entitled to the adulation of the masses.
I'm in, but not sure if I'll stay.
Wow - not experienced the "Frenchness Factor" yet. But I echo the stay in portion.
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Post by: Baronyu
Ouze wrote:Baronyu wrote:Well, that 11.50 euros is from their site, insured and a flat rate for all international order regardless of size as well. But I guess they're using a faster service or something for this KS.
Thanks for the reply.
I'm sorry, I think I misunderstood your initial post. You raise an excellent point, I now see - if you go to Ragingheroes.com right now, insured and registered shipping is indeed $13. That is quite a discrepancy in retrospect - I never looked at the site, only went to the USPS shipping calc.
Seems they're just using a flat rate here as well, but set higher because they're expecting bigger order. A shame really, I would've backed them if I didn't have to pay that much for just a figure or 2(I only want that female haemonculus-looking one, any would be...well, nice extra).
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Post by: Ouze
Well, you're in the US, right? You can piggyback on my pledge, if you like, presuming I can add the figure you want, and you cover it + shipping to you? Send me a PM a few days before it closes, and, presuming I don't withdraw, we should be able to do that.
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Post by: Baronyu
Thanks for the offer, but I'm in the UK, the country IP thing doesn't work for me here for some reason. But really, thanks for the offer.
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Post by: Tannhauser42
About the KS shipping vs. their website's shipping: Is the KS products supposed to be shipped in waves? Multiple shipments will certainly drive the costs up.
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Post by: Breotan
 PanzerTC wrote: Mathieu Raymond wrote:Honestly, from a few interactions with them on Facebook, they were just as annoying in French. It came across as if they felt entitled to the adulation of the masses. I'm in, but not sure if I'll stay.
Wow - not experienced the "Frenchness Factor" yet. But I echo the stay in portion.
Oh, yea, the Frenchness Factor. I forgot all about that. The French can indeed be annoying as hell when they're not even trying. Something to keep in mind as this goes on, I guess. Thin-skinned people are going to be in for a real treat.
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Post by: Redbeard
Kroothawk wrote:I must say, I am astonished and a bit shocked at the weird and constructed criticism of this campaign:
1.) What? Only 75 individual sculpted minis in the first 24 hours unlocked, most of them multiposed? I want 15 armies at once! Like Dreamforge did (wait!)
Interesting math. I count 25 unlocked, plus the base project. And, no, I don't want 15 armies at once, I want one army with a good number of the characters available. When I see pictures of two models already sculpted and they're not unlocked after the project is funded at over 2000%, I question the method being used to determine when things unlock.
Come on folks. Get real!
Here is a fresh kickstarter by a tiny company that offers you THREE different high quality sculpted, extremely modular, inspiring and never before available ARMIES.
Maybe that's the root of my issue. I don't want three armies, I want one complete army. So, due to how they're choosing to make the unlock steps at $30,000 intervals (!) and only a third of intervals actually apply to what I want, I'm concerned that the one thing I want won't be complete.
I'm concerned that this KS is extremely frontloaded because we've had three months of waiting for it to launch to build the excitement, but that same excitement is spent quickly and I worry that because of how fast the funding came in initially, that they're skimping on how much should have been unlocked by now. Bombshell Babes never hit 2000% funded, and unlocked a lot more individual sculpts. They were unlocking a new figure at every $5000 interval, not $30,0000.
I'm not looking for freebies or handouts, I'm not looking for fifteen armies, I just want to make sure that the models that I've already seen, and are largely the reason I signed onto this project, are actually available.
If that's an unreasonable concern, then I guess I am unreasonable
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Post by: Makaleth
I don't know about shipping waves, that hasn't been covered from what I see.
I doubt it. It looks like most stuff will be done all together (as most pledges have a little of everything)
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Post by: timd
Baronyu wrote: Ouze wrote:
Seems they're just using a flat rate here as well, but set higher because they're expecting bigger order.
Their current average order is probably pretty small and the profit on any larger orders probably helps cover the postage over the base fixed postage.
There is also the small package threshold (four pounds in the US) with anything heavier costing quite a bit more to ship.
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Post by: Sythica
I'm really looking forward to this one. In terms of numbers of backers and $, it's following Kingdom Death very closely, so it should end up very big. And the level of detail on those 3D renders is awesome. Makes me wish the heroes were going to be resin instead of metal.
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Post by: cincydooley
A lot of you are asking why how they've been communicating matters and why their (apparent) lack of preparedness for the KS launch matters. Here's why:
Their inability to launch the KS on time is indicative of their ability to manage a project as a whole. If they're late with simply getting the project odd the ground, it isn't unreasonable to expect that the May 2014 ship date is a pipe dream.
Their inability to properly update and communicate with their backers at the launch of the KS is indicative of a group of people that may not be able to adapt to situations on the fly and effectively problem solve. If hey have trouble with these basic things, how will they respond if they have an unexpected production issue? How will they respond to the extreme volume they're going to have to produce? Based on this exemplar, it isn't unreasonable to think that they could just go info-dark if these problems arose and leave their backers hanging with a continually late shipment date.
Everything about how they run this KS can give you, the customer, insight on how things are likely to run when it comes time for fulfillment. You should be concerned about that. Poor management here is likely indicative of poor management as a whole.
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Post by: Buzzsaw
Let's see, I've had the chance to take in a most invigorating lecture, and now I check to see what came of "OK, as one of you has so kindly suggested, we're going to grab a bite and prepare some updates. And maybe cool down a bit ;-)"
Oh...*
With regards to some of the criticism of the critiques here and elsewhere, I will take the opportunity to quote myself and ponder changing my username to Cassandra.
Buzzsaw wrote:overtyrant wrote:...
I am actually very interested in how they handle the KS over the next 30 days and find it quite entertaining that most of us on here can have very different ideas on how one should be run. It can become heated at times (I find this highly amusing) and I could come across as annoying to one person but insightful to another (and vice versa). I think the next 30 days may prove quite entertaining for me!
If there is one constant for kickstarters (honestly, constructive criticism in general) it must be that people that are satisfied find it profoundly hard to accept that people that are not satisfied have legitimate criticism.
As an aside for later analysis, it is 5PM East Coast time USA, and the total is $285,466.
As an aside for later analysis, it is now 10PM East Coast time USA, and the total is $288,511.
*The joke is that nothing has come of that. Also, remember when the following sparked such enthusiasm?
"Don't hesitate spamming us with "Unlock" and "That's next" all in the Update area instead of the Front page, where no one get's informed and where it needs viral activity to know that something happened." That's how we'll handle things from now on. Indeed, that was our original plan, but we refrained from doing it because of the KS recommendations....
Ah, memories... makes this morning seem like it was only yesterday.
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Post by: Mathieu Raymond
From what some French ex-pat have told me (My fiancee and I run a store in the middle of the French Diaspora in Montreal) this is actually indicative of "business as usual" in France. It's surprising though coming from what I assume to be a younger group of people.
True, if you look at it just from a numbers side of things, you shouldn't care about the people running a business or how great their service is. But for those of us who see an exchange as more than just goods for money (commodity fetichism), the relationships are important. Intangible, but nonetheless present.
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Post by: Azazelx
 Krinsath wrote:And their shipping is with tracking and insured, so it's not the "stuff it in a box/envelope and hope it gets there ok" variety of shipping.
It pushes the cost up too high for me at the "I just want a handful of miniatures and not a bulk purchase", but it's not unreasonable shipping.
Yeah, I've paid close to that on at least one KS here, resulting in damaged figures and postcards. Which reminds, me, I need to email them about that this weekend.
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Post by: KalashnikovMarine
Mathieu Raymond wrote:Honestly, from a few interactions with them on Facebook, they were just as annoying in French. It came across as if they felt entitled to the adulation of the masses.
I'm in, but not sure if I'll stay.
Not that I disagree but what gave the impression of arrogance? Besides, you know, being French?
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Post by: Azazelx
Breotan wrote:I addressed much of the nonsense and ragequit posting last December in the Malifaux RPG kickstarter thread. Here it is again for your enjoyment.
Breotan wrote:The standard for pledging should be, "Am I getting my money's worth for what is being offered in this kickstarter?"
Anyone who pulls their pledge because the owners aren't engaging in the best customer service in the world are really missing the point. You don't give up any money until the end of the kickstarter. Just ignore all the stupidity on the forums, come back in a month, take a look at where everything stands and THEN make a decision based on the suggestion I offered back in Dec.
I'm mostly just reading the comments in this thread rather than posting a lot as I did in the Mantic one. I'm sitting on an expensive EB right now, but I have complete faith in RH to produce some amazing figures (unlike Mantic), but I also expect that it will be late and a tad disorganized (like Avatars of War - but hopefully less so.) My large EB pledge really was speculative, and was made with a "get it now, NOW" mentality as well as expecting to see a fair bit more thrown in. Now, my own plan is to come back in 3 and a half weeks and make my final decisions then. However, I think without all the people agitating in the meantime, the final value will be less than it would have otherwise been. Right now, the savings probably aren't there to warrant me paying for them a year in advance (being realistic). There's no chance of this not being funded, so my pledge one way or the other isn't going to make or break their hopes and dreams. Automatically Appended Next Post: vic wrote:Can someone please tell me where I can see these minis? I am yet to see one single actual physical miniature that will be available to backers.
Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:From past experience their 3D sculpts tend to pretty danged accurate of the final product Vic, so those first few they have shown are good enough for me.
Also, I have been asking you to do female figs for bloody ages, there is a market out there, which this Kickstarter is proving without any doubt.
Yes, I am all too aware of the market, and I greatly appreciate people like yourself who have contacted me with requests. I have several WIP female troopers on my desk. Problem is, that it takes "bloody ages" to sculpt actual, physical miniatures. Unfortunately for me, my business so far has run on the principle of only taking money from my customers for products that actually exist.
I note this campaign is labelled "France" , does anyone know if there has been a change in the KS rule that only UK and US citizens can run campaigns. As an Aussie, I would love this rule to change.
To be fair, Vic - you may as well have taken umbrage at every other KS creator in the last year or two for taking money in advance with nothing or feth all show for it, yet I haven't seen you posting critically in Mantic, Red Box, On the Lamb Games' or any of the many many other Kickstarter threads. RH have shown what appear to be 3-d prints of several of their figures from the time this went up:
Raging Heroes spent some time setting up a shell company in the US in order to start it. In much the same way that Mantic Games have. - I believe Mantic's "US offices" are one person in room in the back of OTL's office/studio or something similar. Like Hasslefree's just-shown green of a female trooper, I'm sure yours will sell, when they eventually come to light. However, some of your lunch may have been eaten by these guys getting to market first. We'll just have to wait and see. Some previews from your workbench could/would always help, though.
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Post by: Manchu
There are a few sweeping generalizations about nations/cultures ITT that smack of flamebaiting even if that's not their intended purpose. Please refrain. Thanks.
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Post by: Azazelx
Oh, is it feasable/reasonable for Mods to ask those people who are RH Heralds to identify themselves as such? Perhaps in their sigs?
We know that:
KalashnikovMarine
WolfStark
That new bloke who just registered a few days ago (sorry mate - couldn't find your post/name) are, and that
Inquisitor Wappellious is here to pimp how the casts are the best evar, and the models also the best evar.
But it seems there may be one or a couple of others doing the same on the downlow. Not that I have a problem with people doing it, nor am I jealous of people who got the gig (I think it's better I didn't get it, on reflection), I'd just like to know who is in the program so I can know who to ask questions of and also know who might sometimes need to have a pinch of salt taken with the reading of their RH posts.
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Post by: Jimsolo
<--- Not a herald. Just a slavering fanboy who wishes the One Shot Blondie fig would get unlocked. (The Precious...we WANTS it!)
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Post by: Azazelx
Kroothawk wrote:
Why not be constructive and helpfull and as a mod add this update to the first post:
It's not the Mods' responsibility to update Kickstarter threads. I called this within the first page or two that it would have been better for one of the Heralds to have started it as they would be more likely to maintain it in the same way that Squig maintains the Mantic stuff and you maintain a lot of the other threads. Instead, RH themselves started it, and it's no longer being kept current, and there's basically no chance of it being maintained through the campaign.
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Post by: Ouze
There was a major update that I think will both address Alpharius and Redbeard's concerns, among others.
Hello,
It's now been almost 36 hours since we launched, and what a ride it has been, thanks to you all!
Where are we now?
Well, it's amazing! 1200 pledgers, $288,000+ pledged, and 30 minis, troops and support have become available, that is, over 70 sculpts in 36 hours! And we added the first free upgrades for 6 Heroines:
Please do check out the main project page to see everything that's been unlocked already.
What's the next stretch goal?
Severina Madsen is a Major of the Iron Empire and she will be unlocked at the $310,000 mark. We'll also post a new stretch goal tomorrow.
But what about the Freebies?
Well, if you look at our stretch goals, you'll have noticed that there is nothing standing at the $300,000 mark... We wanted to keep this as a surprise, and reveal it just at that time. But as we may well be in bed when this number is reached, we thought we should reveal it now.
Before we launched the Kickstarter, many of you asked for tank crew members, so meet Jailbird Tank Gunner Ash. As soon as we hit $300,000, all pledgers at LIEUTENANT BOX and above will get Ash for free with their pledge.
Will the distance between stretch goals or the value of them lessen a bit if backing slows down?
Well, before we left for home yesterday, we slightly upped the stretch goal intervals because we had no way of knowing what might happen while we were sleeping, and we did not want to leave pledgers with nothing to look for if the surge had continued.
And yet, we passed one stretch goal earlier today, and are about to pass another one now. So 2 stretch goals in about a day is pretty cool.
That being said, the next intervals are likely to be smaller, as we are getting back to our original plan now that things are moving at a more manageable pace.
For we do have a plan and we're confident that all will work well. But, as we say in France, only fools never change their minds ;-)
So if adjustments are required, we, like the Borg, will adapt :-)
And for those who are worried, we'd like to say: “Let's not worry, let's celebrate!". Because what's happened these past 36 hours has been nothing short of incredible!!!
We are super confident about the rest of the KS, and it's opened up whole new dimensions for Raging Heroes, and for all of you who like the Toughest Girls of the Galaxy!
Could you make more updates please?
We will definitely try to do that. Just so you know, this first day was so intense that we started the second day of the the Kickstarter with an emergency visit to our doctor. Nothing serious, but it took a bite out of our already limited time today.
At the same time, we were careful to follow the Kickstarter recommendation that said that people feel spammed if they get too many updates, and to avoid sending updates every time a new stretch goal was reached. But apparently, many of you don't feel that way... So we should probably have followed our gut feeling from the start...
Nevertheless, it is still a bit hard for us to give you more than one update a day at the moment, since there's a lot of information to digest and take action on. This is giving us a lot of food for thought, new directions, new ideas to make this Kickstarter even better.
However, there's already quite a bit of info is on the front page already. We've made the choice to show you a very large part of what is planned in this Kickstarter in the form of silhouettes, so that you could get a feeling of what is to come and be able to plan ahead for your army. We've updated the front page several times already, removing, editing, adding, rearranging images to make things as clear as possible.
In upcoming updates, among other things, we'll share more info about the background we are developing, and specifically about the characters in these three armies. Here's one now:
Who are the Yaga Soul Weavers in the Kurganova army?
If you know a little bit about Russian Floklore, or if you've read Women who Run with Wolves by Clarissa Pinkola Estés, you'll be aware that Baba-Yaga is a very important figure of the Russian/Slavic mythology. The name Baba-Yaga could be translated as 'Grandma Snake'. She's an old crone who lives deep in the forest and she can be as benevolent as she can be cruel. She's very unpredictable.
We wanted to transpose this legend into the Kurganova background. And so, among other things, the Yaga Soul Weavers are a cast of sorceresses that can bend the primal forces of nature.Their powers are greatly amplified by cybernetic enhancements.
One of their key skill is that they are able to unleash the power of the 'were' gene. This gene was discovered by Kurganova scientists and is the key to turn people in were-animals (like were-wolves or were-bears, for example). And so, the Yaga sorceresses are able to turn some of the very rigid and disciplined Kurganova Troops into furious and unstoppable wild beasts.
What's new in the FAQ?
There's a FAQ at the bottom of the project page.
We've added several questions and answers since we launched. If you still have unanswered questions, hit that “Contact me” button on the right hand side of the project page and let us know.The questions so far:
How much is shipping and when do I add it?
What's a Freebie? How do I know if a stretch goal is a Freebie? How do I get in on that?
What is a Stretch Goal? Is it a "Freebie"?
Can I make add-ons on top of my pledge?
What's the difference between "additional minis" and the "freebies" you talk about?
What's the "sweet spot"? That is, what should I pledge to make sure I get the freebies?
What does 3 $10 Heroines (or $30 worth of Heroines) mean?
I asked you a question in the Comments section, and I'm still waiting for an answer!
At this point in time, I think it's fair to say that it's been impossible to follow the Comments section closely. The comment rate to date has been averaging 1 comment per minute, and quite frankly, right now, we're just plain unable to keep up.
However, we diligently respond to all Contact Me requests, so if there's anything you want to share or ask about, please don't hesitate to be in touch.
Furthermore, our Raging Heralds (the best street team we could have ever wished for) have been jumping in and out, and relaying key info back and forth. For example, here's one they passed on:
Can we have more Heroines-only pledges?
Yes! We had not anticipated the level of enthusiasm our Heroines would get! So we'll be putting such pledge levels together shortly, and you will be notified via an update.
Can we have larger images of the unlocked minis?
Absolutely! We'll spread them throughout the next few updates to avoid too large emails. Here are some of them now:
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Post by: Azazelx
cincydooley wrote:A lot of you are asking why how they've been communicating matters and why their (apparent) lack of preparedness for the KS launch matters. Here's why:
Their inability to launch the KS on time is indicative of their ability to manage a project as a whole. If they're late with simply getting the project odd the ground, it isn't unreasonable to expect that the May 2014 ship date is a pipe dream.
Their inability to properly update and communicate with their backers at the launch of the KS is indicative of a group of people that may not be able to adapt to situations on the fly and effectively problem solve. If hey have trouble with these basic things, how will they respond if they have an unexpected production issue? How will they respond to the extreme volume they're going to have to produce? Based on this exemplar, it isn't unreasonable to think that they could just go info-dark if these problems arose and leave their backers hanging with a continually late shipment date.
Everything about how they run this KS can give you, the customer, insight on how things are likely to run when it comes time for fulfillment. You should be concerned about that. Poor management here is likely indicative of poor management as a whole.
Being realistic, their launches of boxed sets containing 3-4 models in them to be sold at retail via their website (including pre-orders) were typically a month-to-6-weeks late. There's no chance that something this huge will come out with their projected dates. I'm not invoking the " it's kickstarter, brah, expect delays" clause - because that's a bs excuse people always seem to trot out. I'm saying that RH have a track record for lateness, so expect that going in.
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Post by: Jimsolo
I, for one, appreciate the heads-up, Azazel. I also appreciate your effort to keep it as neutral in tone as you could.
That being said, even if they're months and months behind their expected delivery date, I will STILL be stoked about this. These are some amazing models, at some very reasonable prices. I'm not kidding when I say they're the best that I've ever seen.
I knew the prices when I pledged to donate, and I still think I'm getting a good deal. Any new minis added to that will be just icing on the cake. I haven't been this excited for a product launch in years. (Maybe decades...) If the product is delayed, I can accept that. The only thing that would give me cause for alarm is someone presenting evidence that Raging Heroes intends to abscond with my skrillas, and to date no one has done so. So I'm still excited, and still in! Thanks for all the updates, both from those associated with the kickstarter, and those not.
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Post by: AlexHolker
But what about the Freebies?
Well, if you look at our stretch goals, you'll have noticed that there is nothing standing at the $300,000 mark... We wanted to keep this as a surprise, and reveal it just at that time. But as we may well be in bed when this number is reached, we thought we should reveal it now.
"Guys, guys, I have a great idea! Lets pretend that our stretch goals are even worse than they actually are!"
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Post by: Buzzsaw
Azazelx wrote: cincydooley wrote:A lot of you are asking why how they've been communicating matters and why their (apparent) lack of preparedness for the KS launch matters. Here's why:
Their inability to launch the KS on time is indicative of their ability to manage a project as a whole. If they're late with simply getting the project odd the ground, it isn't unreasonable to expect that the May 2014 ship date is a pipe dream.
Their inability to properly update and communicate with their backers at the launch of the KS is indicative of a group of people that may not be able to adapt to situations on the fly and effectively problem solve. If hey have trouble with these basic things, how will they respond if they have an unexpected production issue? How will they respond to the extreme volume they're going to have to produce? Based on this exemplar, it isn't unreasonable to think that they could just go info-dark if these problems arose and leave their backers hanging with a continually late shipment date.
Everything about how they run this KS can give you, the customer, insight on how things are likely to run when it comes time for fulfillment. You should be concerned about that. Poor management here is likely indicative of poor management as a whole.
Being realistic, their launches of boxed sets containing 3-4 models in them to be sold at retail via their website (including pre-orders) were typically a month-to-6-weeks late. There's no chance that something this huge will come out with their projected dates. I'm not invoking the " it's kickstarter, brah, expect delays" clause - because that's a bs excuse people always seem to trot out. I'm saying that RH have a track record for lateness, so expect that going in.
Well, that is certainly reassuring.
As reassuring as them taking 26 hours between "spamming" the backers with updates, it would seem. On the plus side they have teased some very interesting concepts (which seems par for the course), and previewed the first (amazingly corner case) freebie.
The wisdom of putting the update out at 6:15AM local (France) seems... ah whatever.
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Post by: Yonan
Oh internet drama, how I love thee. Bit of a shame the first freebie is a half model but I can find a use for her in a tank somewhere.
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Post by: Jimsolo
They hit $290,000, which means the Kurganova heavy troopers should be unlocked!
Now, how much money do we need for One Shot Blondie (( We WANTS it!)
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
So, they're at what, $300,000? And only unlocked one freebie? But only for pledges over $150?
At least they're working towards plastic, right? Right?
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Post by: KalashnikovMarine
Personally I like the first freedbie, I ran the numbers again and I'm probably sticking with the LT pre order, so I'll be getting tank girl assuming I keep my pledge (Herald I may be, but I'm just as economical as the worst of you... and possible worse then that, I'm a bit of a spend thrift) if so I will advance a project I had been working on to set up an alternate vanquisher turret for one of my Leman Russes, if so, seems I have a fun and fluffy Pask stand in.
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Post by: Azazelx
Buzzsaw wrote: Azazelx wrote:
Being realistic, their launches of boxed sets containing 3-4 models in them to be sold at retail via their website (including pre-orders) were typically a month-to-6-weeks late. There's no chance that something this huge will come out with their projected dates. I'm not invoking the " it's kickstarter, brah, expect delays" clause - because that's a bs excuse people always seem to trot out. I'm saying that RH have a track record for lateness, so expect that going in.
Well, that is certainly reassuring.
Well, as I said. I'm not making excuses. I'm simply being realistic and urging people here to be aware of it going in if they intend to (keep their) pledge. It's like going in prepared for the Avatars of War Kickstarter (glacial delays) or the DeadZone Kickstarter (expect some awful models).
 BobtheInquisitor wrote:So, they're at what, $300,000? And only unlocked one freebie? But only for pledges over $150?
At least they're working towards plastic, right? Right?
I do have to admit that I'm underwhelmed by the couple of heads and guns, and a half-model as the sweeteners so far.
But as a final sentence that really is applicable to both posts I'm quoting - I'm giving it the month, but the extras need to be more worthwhile than a few trinkets and saving a few bucks out of several hundred to get me paying for the models a year in advance.
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Post by: vic
Automatically Appended Next Post:
vic wrote:Can someone please tell me where I can see these minis? I am yet to see one single actual physical miniature that will be available to backers.
Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:From past experience their 3D sculpts tend to pretty danged accurate of the final product Vic, so those first few they have shown are good enough for me.
Also, I have been asking you to do female figs for bloody ages, there is a market out there, which this Kickstarter is proving without any doubt.
Yes, I am all too aware of the market, and I greatly appreciate people like yourself who have contacted me with requests. I have several WIP female troopers on my desk. Problem is, that it takes "bloody ages" to sculpt actual, physical miniatures. Unfortunately for me, my business so far has run on the principle of only taking money from my customers for products that actually exist.
I note this campaign is labelled "France" , does anyone know if there has been a change in the KS rule that only UK and US citizens can run campaigns. As an Aussie, I would love this rule to change.
To be fair, Vic - you may as well have taken umbrage at every other KS creator in the last year or two for taking money in advance with nothing or feth all show for it, yet I haven't seen you posting critically in Mantic, Red Box, On the Lamb Games' or any of the many many other Kickstarter threads. RH have shown what appear to be 3-d prints of several of their figures from the time this went up:
.
Apologies, no umbrage taken or criticism of RH intended. I was making reference to my own business practices not theirs. I wish them every success. I've happily backed quite a few KS projects and have no problem with paying in advance, it just that I like to see at least one actual mini that is part of the KS rewards before pledging. Hopefully this will happen before the campaign ends. I am backing Red Box, I love Tre's stuff, and similar to most KS projects, his KS page has dozens of photos of greens and WIP update shots of actual sculpts that are part of the rewards, and he's just one guy. Even SW Tablescapes, (which I backed too) had lots of concept art and CG but they had gone to the effort of having one of their tiles printed, injection molded and photographed prior to the KS launch.
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Post by: Azazelx
Well, on their frontpage they appear to have five 3-D prints of the figures, including the one I added as an attachment. They also claim to have sculpted a pile of models as well in the 5(?) months that this thing has been delayed, so I'm speculating that they may be being held back so as to be exciting reveals throughout the campaign. I believe they also said they they hope/intend to have all of the sculpting completed by the time the campaign has finished.
Speaking for RH, at least - their 3-D sculpts have been very indicative of the final product, since I've bought quite a few of their boxed sets and other products in the last couple of years, and several as pre-orders based on their renders.
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Post by: Jimsolo
KalashnikovMarine wrote:Personally I like the first freedbie, I ran the numbers again and I'm probably sticking with the LT pre order, so I'll be getting tank girl assuming I keep my pledge (Herald I may be, but I'm just as economical as the worst of you... and possible worse then that, I'm a bit of a spend thrift) if so I will advance a project I had been working on to set up an alternate vanquisher turret for one of my Leman Russes, if so, seems I have a fun and fluffy Pask stand in.
I'm not too enthused by the first freebie, but hell, she's FREE! She'll add a decorative flair to my army, and that's great. I gave it a great deal of consideration and finally decided to go with the 'in for a penny, in for a pound' school of thought. (Or 251.9 pounds, as the case may be... ) I'm going with the Captain box.
(As a side note of stupidity, I only JUST now realized that 'in for a penny, in for a pound' is a reference to British currency. All my life I've thought that phrase seemed really weird. 'Why did they jump from monetary units to units of weight? What kind of sense does that make?' That's one of those moments where you wonder just how smart you really are...)
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Post by: Cyporiean
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the one in your pic, Azazelx, is not a print. I believe that is just a high quality render, as it looks like the Mental Ray outputs with baked lighting I did back in college.
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Post by: Bullockist
I'm so happy this kickstarter has actually started. I actually want one shot blondie now I've seen the 3-d plan. I'm in the 165 dollar bracket , and I'm not sure I'm going to be able to stay there( too many models I think I'll want want).
To those people who are being all negative. Are you in the kickstarter to get models or get free stuff? Are you in the kickstarter to get models or have constant exciting updates?
It might be time to look at your expectations. A French company putting updates out at 6:15 (or whatever) seems entirely reasonable since it is a French company, why would they put updates out at any other time?
I fully expect this kickstarter to be late arriving, however I also expect the models to be awesome.
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Post by: Azazelx
I'd expect that an update before bed, and one in the morning once things are worked out would both be reasonable, given the way this campaign has gone.
Kickstarter is not a charity. I'm in the campaign to get models and "free stuff" is part of the increased value that I do expect and feel entitled to if I'm backing, since it's part of the quid quo pro - if you want my money upfront, a year in advance, you better give me a fething good deal. Otherwise, I'll spend my money on things that are available right now. Using those old-fashioned models known as retail and direct sale from manufacturer. Then I'll buy the KS's nice toys when they reach those distribution channels.
In a year, if I still care.
Being updated on WTF is going on is also good. Again, if you want people's money a year in advance, then part of the deal is good communication. Which, incidently is why neither CMON nor McVey are likely to see another dollar from me in the future.
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Post by: AlexHolker
Bullockist wrote:To those people who are being all negative. Are you in the kickstarter to get models or get free stuff? Are you in the kickstarter to get models or have constant exciting updates?
I was interested in this Kickstarter because I thought it might offer a reasonable opportunity to build an all-female army. It doesn't. To me, Raging Heroes' offering isn't worth a minimum of $3 per model plus shipping a year in advance, without seeing the sculpts and cast in an untested material. Expecting people to pay for an exclusive model that is useless to two of the three armies doesn't help.
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Post by: Jimsolo
Azazelx wrote:I'd expect that an update before bed, and one in the morning once things are worked out would both be reasonable, given the way this campaign has gone.
Kickstarter is not a charity. I'm in the campaign to get models and "free stuff" is part of the increased value that I do expect and feel entitled to if I'm backing, since it's part of the quid quo pro - if you want my money upfront, a year in advance, you better give me a fething good deal. Otherwise, I'll spend my money on things that are available right now. Using those old-fashioned models known as retail and direct sale from manufacturer. Then I'll buy the KS's nice toys when they reach those distribution channels.
In a year, if I still care.
Being updated on WTF is going on is also good. Again, if you want people's money a year in advance, then part of the deal is good communication. Which, incidently is why neither CMON nor McVey are likely to see another dollar from me in the future.
Hmmm. I hadn't thought about it that way. That's an interesting way to approach it.
Personally, I see it more along the lines of an investment based on past performance. The miniatures the company has already done are wonderful, and the models that they have shown us thus far look even better. I for one am only too happy to put my money down up front. I see the discounts and the freebies as less of an entitlement, and more of a reward for helping the project get off the ground. (Now that I've seen an alternative viewpoint, I think I will stick with my approach. It certainly seems the route to greater happiness! )
Your expectations aren't unreasonable though, Azazelx. Just different. Your expectations when it comes to communication are VERY reasonable, and I certainly hope that the updates come more in line with what you've indicated here. I think that a little grace period while they deal with what seems like an unexpected zest for the campaign is in order, but if the communication hasn't become more regular within the next few days, a little encouragement in that direction might be nice.
In any event, I hope you enjoy your Raging Heroes minis as much as I plan to! (As much as I plan to enjoy mine, I mean. I don't plan to enjoy yours. Because that would be weird. )
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Post by: Vermillion
Azazelx wrote:Oh, is it feasable/reasonable for Mods to ask those people who are RH Heralds to identify themselves as such? Perhaps in their sigs?
We know that:
KalashnikovMarine
WolfStark
That new bloke who just registered a few days ago (sorry mate - couldn't find your post/name) are, and that
Inquisitor Wappellious is here to pimp how the casts are the best evar, and the models also the best evar.
But it seems there may be one or a couple of others doing the same on the downlow. Not that I have a problem with people doing it, nor am I jealous of people who got the gig (I think it's better I didn't get it, on reflection), I'd just like to know who is in the program so I can know who to ask questions of and also know who might sometimes need to have a pinch of salt taken with the reading of their RH posts.
I'm one, though been mostly reading and trying to catch up between demands of life just now! Still I can always check if I know the answer to anything for you, and if not check if another person does
but I have complete faith in RH to produce some amazing figures (unlike Mantic), but I also expect that it will be late and a tad disorganized (like Avatars of War - but hopefully less so.)
Think the biggest thing here is the popularity running so fast updates couldn't come fast enough, as it is slowing down should be more We're doing all we can on various forums and the comments on the KS to look for peoples concerns and get an official answer wherever we can I've posted RH a question about the supply, while I'm not sure they can say with 100% certainty until the KS is over and all the numbers are in there is no harm in asking. Also there was something about plastic injection mentioned if the KS goes high enough rather than resin and metal only.
I do know that they have split the production between a couple of places so one manufacturer isn't overwhelmed by the demand and unable to supply all that is required.
Now, how much money do we need for One Shot Blondie (( We WANTS it!)
I wants the preciousness too
So, they're at what, $300,000? And only unlocked one freebie? But only for pledges over $150?
At least they're working towards plastic, right? Right?
In their Risks and Challenges section
- We split the casting between two foundries: One in metal and one in resin, so that neither gets overwhelmed with volume should this KS exceed expectations. And if this Kickstarter was to go extremely well, we also have back-up plans for injected plastics."
On the pledge goals RH has said this:
Before we left for home yesterday, we slightly upped the stretch goal intervals because we had no way of knowing what might happen while we were sleeping, and we did not want to leave pledgers with nothing to look for if the surge had continued.
And yet, we passed one SG earlier today, and are about to pass another one now. So 2 stretch goals in less than a day ain't so bad…
That being said, the next intervals are likely to be smaller, now that things are moving at a more sedate pace.
We do have a plan and we're confident that all will work well. But, as we say in France, only fools never change their minds ;-)
So if adjustments are required, we, like the Borg, will adapt :-)
I was interested in this Kickstarter because I thought it might offer a reasonable opportunity to build an all-female army. It doesn't. To me, Raging Heroes' offering isn't worth a minimum of $3 per model plus shipping a year in advance, without seeing the sculpts and cast in an untested material. Expecting people to pay for an exclusive model that is useless to two of the three armies doesn't help.
One thing I liked about this KS was the offering of the models to the Dropzones. FLGS which RH are working with which will enable backers to have the models as they become available rather than all at once, a year down the line
Your expectations when it comes to communication are VERY reasonable, and I certainly hope that the updates come more in line with what you've indicated here. I think that a little grace period while they deal with what seems like an unexpected zest for the campaign is in order, but if the communication hasn't become more regular within the next few days, a little encouragement in that direction might be nice.
I agree communication between a company and it's customers is very important, and have put this one to them as a quote too with a little elaboration for you all. hopefully they'll give us some more info, more often
Hope some of this has been helpful, and the fact that you're concerns, praises and overall feedback is getting through to them (have posted it openly in most cases so that another herald can let you know also instead of relying on one person) has got to RH as well. The past couple of days for them has been fantastic though, it's opened up a lot of new dimensions for them as a company. Also on the success of the KS:
It made us realize that some of our assumptions were a bit off, such as the fact that many people would want many more Heroines. There was a point where we thought we'd reduce their number because we were afraid there wouldn't be enough interest for them and that people would mostly want troops.
So yes they are indeed looking at everything again.
As soon as we know stuff we will let the communities which we are part of know.
Edit:
Just noticed this popped up as I was reading and posting here:
We've already got the topics for the next update, too
Have asked for an ETA of the next update for you.
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Post by: BrookM
Thing is, what is the real incentive for me to pick up my pledge at a store when it all gets shipped out? I'm pledging at the First Class Box level, does this mean I also get something when I let them deliver it at the store, is that reserved for higher pledge levels, or will the store just get swag for being in the program and that's that then?
edit.
Or is this program the only way to get waves in advance?
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Post by: Slinky
 BrookM wrote:
Or is this program the only way to get waves in advance?
That's how I read it.
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Post by: Vermillion
The answer I got asking about the dropship thing as my local store is one
Basically, we will be able to ship your pledge in several waves, instead of shipping everything at once when everything is done. So you simply have to pay for your shipping, and after the Kickstarter, you will be able to choose if we ship everything at once when all is ready to ship, or if you want to pick your stuff at a retailer partner, and in this case, you'll be able to get it in several waves.
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Post by: Azazelx
 AlexHolker wrote:Bullockist wrote:To those people who are being all negative. Are you in the kickstarter to get models or get free stuff? Are you in the kickstarter to get models or have constant exciting updates?
I was interested in this Kickstarter because I thought it might offer a reasonable opportunity to build an all-female army. It doesn't. To me, Raging Heroes' offering isn't worth a minimum of $3 per model plus shipping a year in advance, without seeing the sculpts and cast in an untested material. Expecting people to pay for an exclusive model that is useless to two of the three armies doesn't help.
See, to me the prices on the troopers are quite reasonable in the KS. $15 for 5/$30 for 10? I find that to be very reasonable, considering the competition (not just GW, either). I'm not likely to be starting a whole army with RH models, but they can be incorporated into my Pan-Everything Imperial Guard of many colours and used for skirmish games.
 Jimsolo wrote: Azazelx wrote:
Kickstarter is not a charity. I'm in the campaign to get models and "free stuff" is part of the increased value that I do expect and feel entitled to if I'm backing, since it's part of the quid quo pro - if you want my money upfront, a year in advance, you better give me a fething good deal. Otherwise, I'll spend my money on things that are available right now. Using those old-fashioned models known as retail and direct sale from manufacturer. Then I'll buy the KS's nice toys when they reach those distribution channels.
In a year, if I still care.
Being updated on WTF is going on is also good. Again, if you want people's money a year in advance, then part of the deal is good communication. Which, incidently is why neither CMON nor McVey are likely to see another dollar from me in the future.
Hmmm. I hadn't thought about it that way. That's an interesting way to approach it.
Personally, I see it more along the lines of an investment based on past performance. The miniatures the company has already done are wonderful, and the models that they have shown us thus far look even better. I for one am only too happy to put my money down up front. I see the discounts and the freebies as less of an entitlement, and more of a reward for helping the project get off the ground. (Now that I've seen an alternative viewpoint, I think I will stick with my approach. It certainly seems the route to greater happiness! )
Your expectations aren't unreasonable though, Azazelx. Just different. Your expectations when it comes to communication are VERY reasonable, and I certainly hope that the updates come more in line with what you've indicated here. I think that a little grace period while they deal with what seems like an unexpected zest for the campaign is in order, but if the communication hasn't become more regular within the next few days, a little encouragement in that direction might be nice.
In any event, I hope you enjoy your Raging Heroes minis as much as I plan to! (As much as I plan to enjoy mine, I mean. I don't plan to enjoy yours. Because that would be weird. )
Well, look at it this way. A real investment from a bank comes with a shirtload of legal requirements, and a healthy chunk of interest that needs to be paid back. KS comes with far fewer requirements, even when you take into consideration the % that amazon, visa and KS themselves skim off the top.
From my consumer perspective, I see it like this. I have a nice little selection of RH models already, but there's more stuff on their website I'd like to get. I could happily buy another of their Manticores and a bunch of their other figures right now. The difference would essentially be that I'd be paying slightly more for the products, slightly less for the shipping, and I'd have my items in 3 weeks. I can then buy the KS models for not that much more than the KS price once they hit retail next year. If they want my money for a pre-order that far in advance, they need to incentivise it. If I wanted to give money to a project purely for the sake of altruism, I'd be donating to build water wells in Africa. Besides, Sedition Wars has shown us that no matter how "high quality, boutique" etc someone's reputation is, there are no guarantees in KS. Mantic has shown us that *Actual product may have no relationship to concept art. Dreamforge and Red Box and Reaper (and Sedition Wars, again) have shown us that Projected delivery dates may have no relationship to actual delivery dates. So there's always a risk, and while, for example, my educated guess is that I think we're probably safe from the first two on this KS, the latter is certainly one of concern, especially given how fast the expectations of this KS were blown away - even if they have 2 foundries at the ready. Besides, if you don't have a local(ish) FLGS, we'll be waiting a loooong time for our figures to ship. The only store in Australia, for example is located on the other side of the continent. Think LA to NYC.
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Post by: Joyboozer
Wait, does that mean figures would be available to buy retail at the same time?
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Post by: Jimsolo
Azazelx wrote:
Well, look at it this way. A real investment from a bank comes with a shirtload of legal requirements, and a healthy chunk of interest that needs to be paid back. KS comes with far fewer requirements, even when you take into consideration the % that amazon, visa and KS themselves skim off the top.
From my consumer perspective, I see it like this. I have a nice little selection of RH models already, but there's more stuff on their website I'd like to get. I could happily buy another of their Manticores and a bunch of their other figures right now. The difference would essentially be that I'd be paying slightly more for the products, slightly less for the shipping, and I'd have my items in 3 weeks. I can then buy the KS models for not that much more than the KS price once they hit retail next year. If they want my money for a pre-order that far in advance, they need to incentivise it. If I wanted to give money to a project purely for the sake of altruism, I'd be donating to build water wells in Africa. Besides, Sedition Wars has shown us that no matter how "high quality, boutique" etc someone's reputation is, there are no guarantees in KS. Mantic has shown us that *Actual product may have no relationship to concept art. Dreamforge and Red Box and Reaper (and Sedition Wars, again) have shown us that Projected delivery dates may have no relationship to actual delivery dates. So there's always a risk, and while, for example, my educated guess is that I think we're probably safe from the first two on this KS, the latter is certainly one of concern, especially given how fast the expectations of this KS were blown away - even if they have 2 foundries at the ready. Besides, if you don't have a local(ish) FLGS, we'll be waiting a loooong time for our figures to ship. The only store in Australia, for example is located on the other side of the continent. Think LA to NYC.
You make several excellent points. I can even concede that you occupy the position of rationality now. I, however, continue to occupy the extremist position of the starstruck fanboy. I've wanted a (small) female army for 40k for a great deal of time, and now that it is within my grasp I just cannot wait.
I was already prepared for a long wait though, especially with the delivery times. I've had to order a couple things from the Europe before and it always takes forever to get to me. No worries though. For quality like this, I can wait!
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Post by: Azazelx
Joyboozer wrote:Wait, does that mean figures would be available to buy retail at the same time?
As each "wave" within the KS gets completed, they will go onto retail sale. Automatically Appended Next Post: That's completely fine, mate. I'm not trying to talk you into dropping your pledge or anything, and as I've stated, I'm happy to sit on my EB until the end. What I'm really getting at is that the majority of the pledges at this stage are essentially speculative ones, which would be hopeful of getting some nice sweeteners. The fact that we've hit a shade short of $300k (from a "goal" of $12k) and the sweeteners so far are a couple of extra heads and weapons (which would/will be included at retail anyway, let's be real - look at Asharah), and a torso/half model, and it's not really very impressive.
So yeah, they need to do a lot better over the next month, because companies like Victoria Miniatures, Maxmini, Kromlech, Scibor, Raging Heroes(!), GW, Warlord and quite a few others have stuff I also want to buy right now...
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Post by: Vermillion
Jimsolo wrote: Azazelx wrote:
Well, look at it this way. A real investment from a bank comes with a shirtload of legal requirements, and a healthy chunk of interest that needs to be paid back. KS comes with far fewer requirements, even when you take into consideration the % that amazon, visa and KS themselves skim off the top.
From my consumer perspective, I see it like this. I have a nice little selection of RH models already, but there's more stuff on their website I'd like to get. I could happily buy another of their Manticores and a bunch of their other figures right now. The difference would essentially be that I'd be paying slightly more for the products, slightly less for the shipping, and I'd have my items in 3 weeks. I can then buy the KS models for not that much more than the KS price once they hit retail next year. If they want my money for a pre-order that far in advance, they need to incentivise it. If I wanted to give money to a project purely for the sake of altruism, I'd be donating to build water wells in Africa. Besides, Sedition Wars has shown us that no matter how "high quality, boutique" etc someone's reputation is, there are no guarantees in KS. Mantic has shown us that *Actual product may have no relationship to concept art. Dreamforge and Red Box and Reaper (and Sedition Wars, again) have shown us that Projected delivery dates may have no relationship to actual delivery dates. So there's always a risk, and while, for example, my educated guess is that I think we're probably safe from the first two on this KS, the latter is certainly one of concern, especially given how fast the expectations of this KS were blown away - even if they have 2 foundries at the ready. Besides, if you don't have a local(ish) FLGS, we'll be waiting a loooong time for our figures to ship. The only store in Australia, for example is located on the other side of the continent. Think LA to NYC.
You make several excellent points. I can even concede that you occupy the position of rationality now. I, however, continue to occupy the extremist position of the starstruck fanboy. I've wanted a (small) female army for 40k for a great deal of time, and now that it is within my grasp I just cannot wait.
I was already prepared for a long wait though, especially with the delivery times. I've had to order a couple things from the Europe before and it always takes forever to get to me. No worries though. For quality like this, I can wait!
Heh I have to agree. I don't touch sci-fi stuff yet was excited by TGG stuff
I'm also looking at it this way as a consumer;
It is a bit of a saving on retail still and a long term preorder, that little bit of a saving also gets me some freebies in with it as a bonus. RH doesn't get 100% of the KS funds so what they can do as freebies/discount will have to be economical due to the nature of a business just as with any KS. For the the store thing is a positive issue as I have one nearby, if I didn;t then yeah can see that if I had to wait and retail had them I'd be dissapointed to say the least, so have again passed on that azazelx
What I'm really getting at is that the majority of the pledges at this stage are essentially speculative ones, which would be hopeful of getting some nice sweeteners. The fact that we've hit a shade short of $300k (from a "goal" of $12k) and the sweeteners so far are a couple of extra heads and weapons (which would/will be included at retail anyway, let's be real - look at Asharah), and a torso/half model, and it's not really very impressive.
So yeah, they need to do a lot better over the next month, because companies like Victoria Miniatures, Maxmini, Kromlech, Scibor, Raging Heroes(!), GW, Warlord and quite a few others have stuff I also want to buy right now...
Well, I'm skint 99% of the time, and unfortunately was out when the KS started for a good few hours (yeah don't ask :( ) so I missed the pledge level that frankly I would have chomped at within seconds of seeing and as the amount went up it pushed it past what I can afford right now (perhaps that'll change in the next month ofc depending on what I need to pay out) so I chanced my luck and asked if anything else pledgewise would be added for $xxx amount even if it differs from what is currently in that amount. As a reply I got:
I'm afraid not
They were early bird specials, and flew off the shelves within the first hour... However, you may want to keep a close eye on the project, perhaps things may become interesting for you later on during the Kickstarter... I'm not trying to tease you, I just don't know for sure yet how it will all turn out...
Now they have already said they WILL be doing one where it is mainly the heroines up for grabs as a pledge, so it shows that RH are happy to listen to feedback and adjust, there is hope for you yet
And also as I don;t do sci fi the All three Brunhildes deal and The von Königsmark Limited Edition Box are both much more useful immediately for me personally so can understand the dilemma you have about spend now and get now, or spend now and get later.
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Post by: Herzlos
Joyboozer wrote:Wait, does that mean figures would be available to buy retail at the same time?
I doubt it, it just means if you're near a dropzone you can collect your KS figures in waves.
Which makes sense I guess; It reduces their warehousing load and keeps backers happy in exchange for a bit more paperwork. If everything goes out at the end they are going to have to store a lot of figures for a long time and spend a lot of time packing and shipping at the end. Automatically Appended Next Post:  Vermillion wrote:
Well, I'm skint 99% of the time, and unfortunately was out when the KS started for a good few hours (yeah don't ask :( ) so I missed the pledge level that frankly I would have chomped at within seconds of seeing and as the amount went up it pushed it past what I can afford right now (perhaps that'll change in the next month ofc depending on what I need to pay out) so I chanced my luck and asked if anything else pledgewise would be added for $xxx amount even if it differs from what is currently in that amount. As a reply I got:
I'm afraid not
They were early bird specials, and flew off the shelves within the first hour... However, you may want to keep a close eye on the project, perhaps things may become interesting for you later on during the Kickstarter... I'm not trying to tease you, I just don't know for sure yet how it will all turn out...
I imagine plenty of the EB pledges for the level you want will open up over the next month. They may not stay around for very long though.
I think the majority of them will have been speculative pledges allowing the backer the option to keep it or change it at leisure once more information is available.
For instance, I got a Commander EB, and dropped it to Lieutenant EB when one became available, and depending on the deal I may drop it down to the painter or single hero pledge and get stuff at retail.
There are plenty of things I can use the money for right now, so I'll need to wait and see if the deal is good enough for me to want to pay a year in advance (I'm not expecting it to be even vaguely on time, as very few kickstarters manage that especially at this scale).
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Post by: DaveC
Quick question if anyone knows the troops are currently going to be spin cast resin any one know who is manufacturing them?
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Post by: AlexHolker
Azazelx wrote:See, to me the prices on the troopers are quite reasonable in the KS. $15 for 5/$30 for 10? I find that to be very reasonable, considering the competition (not just GW, either). I'm not likely to be starting a whole army with RH models, but they can be incorporated into my Pan-Everything Imperial Guard of many colours and used for skirmish games.
The basic infantry ($40 RRP/$30 discounted) are the same price as Goldswords ($39.27 RRP/$29.46 discounted). That is not a reasonable price.
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Post by: scarletsquig
They're metal, though.
You can only discount metal so far before you start making a loss, due to the cost of the raw material.
Same goes for resin, only due to labour costs more than material costs.
They'll need to unlock the plastic sprue tooling before prices can be lowered further.
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Post by: Azazelx
AlexHolker wrote: Azazelx wrote:See, to me the prices on the troopers are quite reasonable in the KS. $15 for 5/$30 for 10? I find that to be very reasonable, considering the competition (not just GW, either). I'm not likely to be starting a whole army with RH models, but they can be incorporated into my Pan-Everything Imperial Guard of many colours and used for skirmish games.
The basic infantry ($40 RRP/$30 discounted) are the same price as Goldswords ($39.27 RRP/$29.46 discounted). That is not a reasonable price.
We'll just have to agree to disagree then. Based on the quality of the RH stuff I have, I find $3/figure to be quite reasonable for quality R&F. I used to buy the GW metal IG boxes of 10 figures for AU$30, but that was also around 1996.
My understanding is that the R&F in this KS are going to be spin-cast plastic - ie Restic. Characters are metal.
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Post by: Valhallan42nd
Breotan wrote:I addressed much of the nonsense and ragequit posting last December in the Malifaux RPG kickstarter thread. Here it is again for your enjoyment.
Breotan wrote:The standard for pledging should be, "Am I getting my money's worth for what is being offered in this kickstarter?"
Anyone who pulls their pledge because the owners aren't engaging in the best customer service in the world are really missing the point. You don't give up any money until the end of the kickstarter. Just ignore all the stupidity on the forums, come back in a month, take a look at where everything stands and THEN make a decision based on the suggestion I offered back in Dec.
OMG, this. I thought there was angst in MMO forums; clearly:
 .
A calm head will see you through here, folks.
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Post by: Mathieu Raymond
KalashnikovMarine wrote: Mathieu Raymond wrote:Honestly, from a few interactions with them on Facebook, they were just as annoying in French. It came across as if they felt entitled to the adulation of the masses.
I'm in, but not sure if I'll stay.
Not that I disagree but what gave the impression of arrogance? Besides, you know, being French?
Being told that I really shouldn't question anything that they do or how they do it because their minis are awesome, and so what if they have more completion delays?
And please understand, I really enjoy you as a person, so this is not directed at you in any way shape or form.
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Post by: tre manor
I just wanted to say that the items shown on the page are indeed only renders. These are not the actual prints.
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Post by: Alpharius
I'm just glad we finally got an update - and it was a good one!
This bit here though:
Will the distance between stretch goals or the value of them lessen a bit if backing slows down?
Well, before we left for home yesterday, we slightly upped the stretch goal intervals because we had no way of knowing what might happen while we were sleeping, and we did not want to leave pledgers with nothing to look for if the surge had continued.
They would have been better off ignoring that one and not posting that 'explanation' because while we can't 'know for sure', I think we all 'know' what the real reason was!
However, as this one slows down and settles into a daily rhythm I'm positive we'll see more 'free' miniatures, freebies, bonuses, etc. - because that is the best way to keep this one surging forward.
The idea of a 'character' tank gunner is great though, as I'd have to think we'll see characters on motorbikes and possibly mechs too!
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Post by: Crimson
 tre manor wrote:I just wanted to say that the items shown on the page are indeed only renders. These are not the actual prints.
And that's fine, but there are only renders of five models, most is only concept art. There is absolutely no way I will pledge on anything based on concept art alone.
Also, as many people plan to use these along with miniatures from other companies, some size comparison shots would be rather essential.
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Post by: Krinsath
 Crimson wrote: tre manor wrote:I just wanted to say that the items shown on the page are indeed only renders. These are not the actual prints.
And that's fine, but there are only renders of five models, most is only concept art. There is absolutely no way I will pledge on anything based on concept art alone.
Also, as many people plan to use these along with miniatures from other companies, some size comparison shots would be rather essential.
Size comparisons have been done, here's one from the "raging heroes scale" Google Image Search:
They're the right size, and the "render-to-mini" accuracy of Raging Heroes has historically been spot on.
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Post by: Crimson
Krinsath wrote:
Size comparisons have been done, here's one from the "raging heroes scale" Google Image Search:
Yes, I've seen that picture, but some of their models are much smaller (I think the Dark Elves?) and there was a great deal of discussion about the scale before this thing launched.
They're the right size, and the "render-to-mini" accuracy of Raging Heroes has historically been spot on.
I wouldn't call almost head taller 'right size.' If they're that big I certainly wont want them.
As for the renders and concept art, I know they're rather accurate, but it is still not the same, especially for multi-part kits.
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Post by: RoninXiC
"almost head taller" is not a way to describe a miniatures.
A head taller than what?
GW Minis are horribly proportioned and usually have nothing in common with "real life" people.
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Post by: KalashnikovMarine
Mathieu Raymond wrote: KalashnikovMarine wrote: Mathieu Raymond wrote:Honestly, from a few interactions with them on Facebook, they were just as annoying in French. It came across as if they felt entitled to the adulation of the masses.
I'm in, but not sure if I'll stay.
Not that I disagree but what gave the impression of arrogance? Besides, you know, being French?
Being told that I really shouldn't question anything that they do or how they do it because their minis are awesome, and so what if they have more completion delays?
And please understand, I really enjoy you as a person, so this is not directed at you in any way shape or form.
Not at all Mathieu, I've enjoyed our correspondence and I didn't think your comment was in any way coming back on me, it'd probably be fair, I'm an arrogant ******* and I know it, but arrogant is something I try to avoid when I'm street teaming for a company, and I like to think, outside of the Herald stuff I've posted I've been fairly critical myself of some of the decisions made in this KS so far, so it was more just wanting to get further detail on your experience to add to the info file.
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Post by: Inquisitor Wappellious
Here is a figure that I am using for my Gold NMM painting video. It was cast in metal, but was very easy to prep and assemble. I had a blast painting it!
http://wappellious.blogspot.com/2013/06/brunhilde-for-gold.html
I am very much looking forward to having a squad of bikes as Rough Riders. I just hope that they make a suitable figure to use as Mogul Khamir!
Also, given the theme of my army (see the thread in painting showcase), I was directed towards Victoria Lamb for my conscripts. The idea was that they would be great highlander figures. I checked those out, and they were not leading me astray 
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Post by: inqscott
If that the size they will fit in very well with dreamforge troopers my evil plans grows for the iron empire toopers
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Post by: Crimson
RoninXiC wrote:"almost head taller" is not a way to describe a miniatures.
A head taller than what?
GW Minis are horribly proportioned and usually have nothing in common with "real life" people.
Other models in the pic were GW models, so obviously head taller than them. And I'm sure many people plan to use these in their IG armies, so comparison with them is relevant. I'm sure many people also plan to use them with Dreamforge models, so comparison with them would be relevant as well.
In any case, it kinda bugs me if things that are sold as 28mm miniatures are actually 33 or 35mm miniatures.
I can't be arsed to dig though the old thread, but many people were concerned about the scale issue, and RH said they take these concerns in account when designing these new models. I'd like to see how big the standard troopers actually are, that is hardly an unreasonable request.
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Post by: Ouze
Indeed - perhaps one of the many Heralds could relay that people really, really want to see the scale of standard troopers, even if it's just a render of a 3d model next to an image of a IG Cadian (or the silhouette thereof).
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Post by: KalashnikovMarine
Your request has been transmitted.
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Post by: Krinsath
Crimson wrote:RoninXiC wrote:"almost head taller" is not a way to describe a miniatures.
A head taller than what?
GW Minis are horribly proportioned and usually have nothing in common with "real life" people.
Other models in the pic were GW models, so obviously head taller than them. And I'm sure many people plan to use these in their IG armies, so comparison with them is relevant. I'm sure many people also plan to use them with Dreamforge models, so comparison with them would be relevant as well.
In any case, it kinda bugs me if things that are sold as 28mm miniatures are actually 33 or 35mm miniatures.
I can't be arsed to dig though the old thread, but many people were concerned about the scale issue, and RH said they take these concerns in account when designing these new models. I'd like to see how big the standard troopers actually are, that is hardly an unreasonable request.
I agree that RH can only help themselves by doing it, because their assurances that the characters models are larger than rank-and-file (and all the models shown in that picture are characters) will not be enough in the long-haul. With Dystopian War's little incident fresh in the market's mind, it's certainly a valid concern.
Out of curiosity, does GW's practice of marketing 32mm models as 28mm bother you as well?
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Post by: keltikhoa
As appealing as One Shot Blondie is.... that silhouette for Mortaria Noctis Hitwoman is extremely enticing to me
As for the freebie... I can understand a model made tailored to customer requests. It does seem a bit odd that they would release a freebie model that you would be unable to use with the rest of all the models they have featured in the KS. (IE: No tanks  )
Not entirely sure what I will do with a torso gal... the only option I have currently would be to put her on a Battlewagon. that could be interesting
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Post by: Minx
Iirc they (RH) plan(ed) to show us size comparison pictures and actual sculpts during the one month long kickstarter. I can't find the corresponding post though.
Perhaps the heralds know more about that.
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Post by: Crimson
Krinsath wrote:
Out of curiosity, does GW's practice of marketing 32mm models as 28mm bother you as well?
Cadians are about 28mm to their eye level, which is what 28mm traditionally means.
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Post by: Denkstrum
Here is a picture I took earlier for scale purposes. Two things to note: the RH figure isn't mounted flush to the base, so it's a little higher than it should be, and secondly, RH said troops will be slightly shorter than the hero figures.
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Post by: Inquisitor Wappellious
I have been posting size comparison images all through the thread and on the KS, but they obviously get buried in the pages of posts and comments very rapidly.
Here are a few shots of the Dark Eldar figs:
http://wappellious.blogspot.com/2013/03/sci-fi-vestals-from-raging-heroes.html
This is Asharah from my Adepticon army. I used the left over bits from her to convert the Kabal warriors into Incubi.
http://wappellious.blogspot.com/2013/04/asharahs-full-retinue.html
I am going to shoot more images of my RH wyches with the GW versions, and post those over the next few days...
Also, I should emphasize that the many posts I have done in the Painting & Modeling section are almost all GW figs. The reason I gravitated to RH was my frustrations with FW, Failcast, and so on When I was looking for miniatures to use for the painting videos, RH was a natural choice, given the detail, and so on.
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Post by: Minx
Inquisitor Wappellious wrote:I have been posting size comparison images all through the thread and on the KS, but they obviously get buried in the pages of posts and comments very rapidly.
It's the size of the new miniatures some people are worried about. I've got the Königsmark sisters on my desk and i like their scale. If the new troops will be slightly shorter or at most of the same height that would work for me.
Edit: Judging from this post made earlier in this very thread i am sure we don't need to worry though.
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Post by: Inquisitor Wappellious
Since the new troop boxes are resin, and in units of 5 each (unique poses, etc), I have been posting the Vestals, since they are manufactured in that exact method.
I would figure that the new boxes of 5 troops will be done in the same way... 
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Post by: Jimsolo
Crimson wrote:RoninXiC wrote:"almost head taller" is not a way to describe a miniatures.
A head taller than what?
GW Minis are horribly proportioned and usually have nothing in common with "real life" people.
Other models in the pic were GW models, so obviously head taller than them. And I'm sure many people plan to use these in their IG armies, so comparison with them is relevant. I'm sure many people also plan to use them with Dreamforge models, so comparison with them would be relevant as well.
In any case, it kinda bugs me if things that are sold as 28mm miniatures are actually 33 or 35mm miniatures.
I can't be arsed to dig though the old thread, but many people were concerned about the scale issue, and RH said they take these concerns in account when designing these new models. I'd like to see how big the standard troopers actually are, that is hardly an unreasonable request.
You make a good point Crimson. It's very fair to want your models to scale well with each other. I am one of the many who plan to use them in my IG army, so that is indeed a concern. The pictures do a lot to assuage that fear, however. The scale shots, which seem to universally use the Kurganova sisters, do indeed show them slightly taller than regular guardsman. However, all of the Kurganova sisters are wearing peaked 'not-a-commissar' hats as well as very high heels, so it doesn't seem that bad. Especially looking at James' picture, it becomes more clear that from heel to crown the women they've already produced are easily in line with Games Workshop figs. I think it's all going to work out for us here.
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Post by: Elemental
 keltikhoa wrote:
As appealing as One Shot Blondie is.... that silhouette for Mortaria Noctis Hitwoman is extremely enticing to me
Kiki will be interesting for me, because the "hulking brute" archetype is hardly ever female.
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Post by: Breotan
Denkstrum wrote:Here is a picture I took earlier for scale purposes. Two things to note: the RH figure isn't mounted flush to the base, so it's a little higher than it should be, and secondly, RH said troops will be slightly shorter than the hero figures.
The thing that's wrong with your picture is that the cutting mat with the ruler drawn on it is against the base of the left-most figure and almost half an inch away from the base of the right-most figure. It's also slightly tilted. This distorts what the camera sees and really makes it a bad way to compare models. To do this right, you need each and every model on the same base (as you have done), all flush against the cutting mat (which is not done), with the cutting mat being as close to vertical as possible and the camera being about eye-level on the Space Marine models.
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Post by: Minx
We are past $300k now. First freebie unlocked:
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Post by: Alpharius
This is great news!
I can't wait for the next update!
And I really can't wait for the first actual model picture and scale shot - that will really kick this one up a notch or two!
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Post by: prankster
Alpharius wrote:This is great news!
I can't wait for the next update!
And I really can't wait for the first actual model picture and scale shot - that will really kick this one up a notch or two!
Loud'n Raging wrote: 2 minutes ago
Weeeee!!! "Ash" is now unlocked!
$300,000 in 50 hours! You guys are simply awesome!
(Next update coming up, being written as we speak)
So, based on yesterday a few hours yet before they update anything
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Post by: Minx
Alpharius wrote:I can't wait for the next update!
And I really can't wait for the first actual model picture and scale shot - that will really kick this one up a notch or two!
Indeed, right about now would be the perfect time for an update.
Edit: what's going on, ninja'd by Raging Heroes? NO!
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Post by: prankster
I happened to be looking at the comments section when they popped that in, so thought I'd share it to keep things ticking over.
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Post by: Morathi's Darkest Sin
Aye, next update should be interesting, hopefully more SG unlocks and maybe another freebie might be good.
Its still ticking over very nicely though.
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Post by: prankster
Yeah, looking forwards to the next update. Hoping for another freebie SG as well, hopefully slightly more than half a tank commander .
What I can see happening is unlocks running at 10k/20k intervals and then free stuff at 50k intervals, so next would be 350k.
Unlikely, given what we've seen so far, but no harm in thinking about possibilities.
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Post by: Alpharius
Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:Aye, next update should be interesting, hopefully more SG unlocks and maybe another freebie might be good.
Its still ticking over very nicely though.
It probably a good time for an update, hopefully with something exciting, maybe a longer 'unlock road map'?
Something to show that it will not in fact take $1M to unlock everything?
That way, anyone on the fence because they want to collect everything from a particular force can rest assured it will happen?
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Post by: insaniak
Krinsath wrote:Out of curiosity, does GW's practice of marketing 32mm models as 28mm bother you as well?
GW doesn't market their miniatures as 28mm. They haven't done so for years.
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Post by: Morathi's Darkest Sin
Alpharius wrote:[
It probably a good time for an update, hopefully with something exciting, maybe a longer 'unlock road map'?
Something to show that it will not in fact take $1M to unlock everything?
That way, anyone on the fence because they want to collect everything from a particular force can rest assured it will happen?
Yeah that's what I'd like to see, hell I'd still like to see it all unlocked, and RH having to consider stretch goals off the bat that although they'd need to be larger stretches, could spur a frenzy of pledges.
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Post by: Hulksmash
They won't massively road map it (and we don't want them to) but I could see them putting up 3-4 more models and hopefully a freebie stretch. The reason we don't want a long road map is once it's out it's hard to adjust for the campaign slowing resulting in a higher chance of not hitting the things they've mapped out.
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Post by: Azazelx
Inquisitor Wappellious wrote:Since the new troop boxes are resin, and in units of 5 each (unique poses, etc), I have been posting the Vestals, since they are manufactured in that exact method.
I would figure that the new boxes of 5 troops will be done in the same way...
No.
Not at all.
The resin models cost slightly more than the metal ones on their site, so it's clearly going to be a very different process. The troops are going to be spin-cast plastic - "restic style" (ie Mantic's models), and we don't know how well they will turn out. I hope they've done some test runs.
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Post by: prankster
Indeed, there needs to be a line between too many SGs to unlock and too few. I think with the pace of updates at the moment a few more would be better, get people interested in what's coming up. Where as if they were updating more frequently they could get away with only a couple as the updates themselves would likely keep things ticking over at a slightly faster rate.
For future reference, funding is presently at $301,869 with 1,296 bakers. Oh, and they're still putting together that update.
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Post by: Azazelx
Jimsolo wrote:You make a good point Crimson. It's very fair to want your models to scale well with each other. I am one of the many who plan to use them in my IG army, so that is indeed a concern. The pictures do a lot to assuage that fear, however. The scale shots, which seem to universally use the Kurganova sisters, do indeed show them slightly taller than regular guardsman. However, all of the Kurganova sisters are wearing peaked 'not-a-commissar' hats as well as very high heels, so it doesn't seem that bad. Especially looking at James' picture, it becomes more clear that from heel to crown the women they've already produced are easily in line with Games Workshop figs. I think it's all going to work out for us here.
The thing to remember with the Kurganova sisters is that their stance has their legs as far akimbo as will fit on a round 25mm base. If they actually stood a bit more normally or neutrally, they'd be another head taller. Automatically Appended Next Post: Breotan wrote:
To do this right, you need each and every model on the same base (as you have done), all flush against the cutting mat (which is not done), with the cutting mat being as close to vertical as possible and the camera being about eye-level on the Space Marine models.
I'll take a scale picture later today and post it up.
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Post by: RoninXiC
Their preperation must have been IMPRESSIVE... I mean it takes them only several hours to come up with an upate ;(
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Post by: Kroothawk
Never though, I would ever say that: But thanks Azazelx for bringing a voice of reason to this thread
BTW I am not a Herald, just someone who decided 2 years ago, that I should bring Dakka's attention to this company and start and constantly update a news&rumour thread on them, because they deserve it (like many other smaller companies). Even if it was not my "duty" to do so.
I will try to post edited updates of the kickstarter campaign (if noone else does), so that some kindly spirited mod can add them to the first post for the benefit of all, while Raging Heroes is busy doing kickstarter work (as I expected and predicted in the other thread).
Does anyone have the pic with the 12k-200k unlocks still saved somewhere? It was deleted from the kickstarter page, but would be helpful for a full summary.
BTW, in one of the unnoticed updates, Raging Heroes assured us, that they have no doubts that all planned miniatures will be unlocked at the end of the kickstarter. It would just be stupid to spill everything in the first two days.
RoninXiC wrote:Their preperation must have been IMPRESSIVE... I mean it takes them only several hours to come up with an upate ;(
They designed 150 individual and high quality miniatures, most of them with infinite pose options. They achieved what most miniature companies thought almost impossible: get through all the kickstarter requirements as a non-US- UK company. Yeah, not putting out an update in the 6 hours of sleep totally negates all those achievements
As many Dakka members are from North America: Keep in mind that Europe's office hours end when yours start. And that in Europe it is deep in the night when you come back from office to check your computer for updates.
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Post by: Vermillion
An update is on it's way in a bit for folks, no idea of the content, but those who are eagerly waiting, shouldn't be long now.
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Post by: Alpharius
Timer set...
Vermillion wrote:An update is on it's way in a bit for folks, no idea of the content, but those who are eagerly waiting, shouldn't be long now.
and...mark!
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Post by: grefven
"Shouldn't be long" - Is that estimated by the "RH perception of time" or by us normal people? Because that would make a difference of hours.
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Post by: -iPaint-
What's the rush? Do people not have other things to do besides wait around their computers hitting F5 on a Kickstarter page? An update will arrive when it arrives.
~iPaint
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Post by: PsychoticStorm
Timely updates are important and will be more important if and when pace speeds up.
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Post by: pretre
-iPaint- wrote: Do people not have other things to do besides wait around their computers hitting F5
welcometotheinternet.jpg
No, no most folks really don't. They have put money down on something and want to see updates when the goals are hit.
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Post by: grefven
-iPaint- wrote:What's the rush? Do people not have other things to do besides wait around their computers hitting F5 on a Kickstarter page? An update will arrive when it arrives.
~iPaint
I bet you hit the F5 to read the replies to your reply.
No, but seriously, communication is quite important, as is customer satisfaction. Do good at both and you've got yourself a winner. RH isn't doing their best as of yet. I am sure that they'll catch up with the importance of it at one point or another. I just hope it isn't too late by then.
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Post by: Alpharius
grefven wrote: -iPaint- wrote:What's the rush? Do people not have other things to do besides wait around their computers hitting F5 on a Kickstarter page? An update will arrive when it arrives.
~iPaint
I bet you hit the F5 to read the replies to your reply.
I guess asking for an update on a project is a 'waste of time', but complaining on a miniature wargaming forum about people asking for updates - now there's something noble!
Also, we now know that 'Next update coming up, being written as we speak' in RH time equals something more than 4 hours!
And yeah, it is all in good fun everyone!
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Post by: Hulksmash
I just set my phones calendar for the day before this ends. I'll watch this thread because I get bored at work but otherwise I have no intention of logging onto the kickstarter moving forward. It's likely my money I put toward this is going to be redirected to Mantic's Deadzone stuff anyway.
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Post by: Alpharius
Hulksmash wrote:I just set my phones calendar for the day before this ends. I'll watch this thread because I get bored at work but otherwise I have no intention of logging onto the kickstarter moving forward. It's likely my money I put toward this is going to be redirected to Mantic's Deadzone stuff anyway.
And that's saying something, given how 'on the fence' you were there AND the fact that Mantic excels at Kickstarter communications!
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Post by: Hulksmash
Alpharius wrote: Hulksmash wrote:I just set my phones calendar for the day before this ends. I'll watch this thread because I get bored at work but otherwise I have no intention of logging onto the kickstarter moving forward. It's likely my money I put toward this is going to be redirected to Mantic's Deadzone stuff anyway.
And that's saying something, given how 'on the fence' you were there AND the fact that Mantic excels at Kickstarter communications!
I guess it does. I didn't see it that way but I think the lack of communication on this combined with the uncomfortable feel of the way they handled the initial burst of funds means I have almost zero enthusiasm for this.
Mantic on the other hand did at least update regularly, mostly listened to feedback (the orx are better but not fixed but at least not a zero value anymore), and eventually provided an excellent price on an almost year out pre-order. Which this will easily be if not longer if they don't go plastic.
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Post by: -iPaint-
Sure, but we're still $8k away from the last stretch goal, and that should take a few more hours to hit, so in the meantime why the clamor for an update immediately? Trust me, I'm as anxious as the next person to see the updates, but saying that they aren't coming out fast enough when RH said in the comments that they're currently working on one and to be patient, seems a bit discourteous.
It's day 2 and it's already starting to seem like people (especially over in the KS comments section) are chomping at the bit for this KS to be over with everything completely unlocked.
Kickstarters require a bit of patience from the backer, and I don't think it's too much to ask that we give RH some slack and assume they're not going to keep us in the dark.
~iPaint
Edit: Looks like all we had to do was wait an hour....Like I said, a bit of patience is going to be needed with this KS, since it's a small group of people involved with over a thousand backers now, and they're learning as they go.
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