And an update is up! (one sec, putting in images...)
First freebie unlocked, and What happens when a Kickstarter launches to such overwhelming numbers?
Update #4 · Jun 6, 2013 · comment
After 50 hours from the launch of the Toughest Girls of the Galaxy Kickstarter, we passed the $300,000 mark! We can only say it again: THANK YOU!! You, TGG backers, are awesome!
You've now unlocked the Heavy Troops for the Kurganova Shock Troops:
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And at the 300,000 mark you unlocked the 1st Freebie, Ash, the Tank Gunner, who will be added for free to all pledgers at LIEUTENANT BOX and above.
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What's next?
The next Stretch Goal is set at $310,000 and is already nearly upon us: Major Severina Madsen from the Iron Empire.
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After that, at $330,000, you will be able to unlock Tank Stopper Katerina Zerga from the Kurganova Shock Troops.
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And after that, at the $350,000, you're looking at unlocking the already very popular Mad Nurse Bernadette from the Jailbird Division also featured in our opening video.
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But that's not all! We've also planned to unlock the 2nd Freebie at the same time, at $350,000!
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What happens when a Kickstarter launches to such overwhelming numbers?
First, you go numb. You stare at the screen, halfway between manic hysteria and stunned silence. Friends from neighbouring offices roll in to congratulate you and ask you “what's a Kickstarter?”. The phone rings off the hook. SMS messages pile up. Skype rings non-stop too. The ding-ding-ding of Facebook messages makes a constant background noise.
There are so many things demanding your attention all at once, you just don't know what to do first. Since you just got the link of the campaign (there was no way to have it before launching), you want to repost it where people can find it. But while you're doing that, you notice that all the Early Bird Specials are already gone. You've got messages flashing all over your screen clamoring for attention: email, FB, Raging Heralds (bless them one more time!), Kickstarter emails and comments... And then you've got your stretch goals... Which you don't even have time to output from locked to unlocked, as the KS locomotive is rolling over you...
Your friends and neighbors kindly realize that you're white as a sheet and leave you to it. You start plugging away at the keyboard, but you're still in a daze. As you try to focus, questions keep popping up that were not anticipated, and which require quick pow-wows between us 3 to answer. Focus gone. Start over. Re-interruption.s. Re-discussions. Re decisions. Re-back to “what was I doing?”. And so on...
Honestly, what an amazing ride!
And after 54 hours, the madness continues :-)
Can we have more Heroines-only pledges?
Yes! We're still working on that, and you will be notified via an update.
Some images from your previous updates are not working...
Yes, we noticed that. That is because we linked them to images that were on the main project page. But we did not realize that when you remove an image from that page, the link goes dead! Kickstarter does not keep the links alive! So, now we know. We're now uploading to a permanent server, so the images for the Updates will no longer go missing. But we can't fix the previous updates, as the Kickstarter platform does not allow edits on updates once they're posted, so we'll add them back in future updates.
Can we have larger images of the unlocked minis?
Yes indeed! See below.
Meanwhile, please have a great day, and thank you again! Your support is incredible! More soon!!!
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All I want to know is how high does it have to go before we hit plastics? I would spend a bucket load if it meant getting a sprue of decent female heads for conversions.
Kroothawk wrote: Does anyone have the pic with the 12k-200k unlocks still saved somewhere? It was deleted from the kickstarter page, but would be helpful for a full summary.
I've stored a copy of the kickstarter page every now and then and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future. That's where i found the missing image and uploaded it to my gallery:
Spoiler:
btw thanks for all your updates in this and countless other threads. Always a pleasure to see your summaries.
Heh. How about those stretched-out stretch goals? Check out the prices on the graphics for Katerina and the Mad Nurse in your email. I'm sure they'll probably fix the ones on the KS update page quickly...
It's day 2 and it's already starting to seem like people (especially over in the KS comments section) are chomping at the bit for this KS to be over with everything completely unlocked.
It's pretty clear that a lot more of the stuff would already be unlocked if they weren't going back and further stretching the stretches between the stretch goals.
You see? It was all a misunderstanding: when they said that the updates would be like "spam", we thought they were using the American version, which is to say "frequent and common".
Well you know how spam is a delicacy in Hawaii? Well it's hard to get spam in France, so what they really meant was "rare and hard-to-find".
HisDivineShadow wrote: Its been 2 days. Out of a 32 Day campaign.
I'd rather then be working on logistics, minis, and etc then answering every whine and cry from Joe Blow Internet on Every forum on the Interwebz.
That's what they've said they were doing in the 4 months between when this KS was supposed to start and now. I assume they would (should?) have also been working on it pre-Feb as well.
Azazelx wrote: Heh. How about those stretched-out stretch goals? Check out the prices on the graphics for Katerina and the Mad Nurse in your email. I'm sure they'll probably fix the ones on the KS update page quickly...
Wait... you're right, I hadn't noticed in copying over, in the e-mail the Nurse and Tank-Stopper are both $330,000, in the update proper the Nurse is $350,000. WTF?
So, I guess we're back to needing to break a million to unlock just what they have shadowed on the front. Greeeeeeeeeeeeat.
A lot of money!
At the risk of sounding like a whiny cry baby Joe Blow on the Interwebz, $20K to unlock a single model that is then a $10 add-on...
The plan so far certainly looks as if $1M will be necessary to unlock it all - as someone already alluded to/did the math for...
My point is that they let one slip through their stretch goal graphic modification program.
It's pretty clear that a lot more of the stuff would already be unlocked if they weren't going back and further stretching the stretches between the stretch goals.
Extending the stretches out extends the campaign in that it takes longer to get to the end/more to "shoot for" if you're the type who likes to add-on endless add-ons.
It also puts more space (and money) between the "freebies".
...
Erm, if you're at the $165 + $20 price point where you become eligible for any of the freebies, anyway.
We obviously see things differently but you can't honestly feel like this company is communicating well with it's public can you?
I guess I'm patient enough to not worry about the communication issues people are discussing. A bunch of questions have been answered in the past 24 hours, and I think everyone forgets that we are dealing with a company that's not on US time (a good majority of KS backers are from the US, which is several hours behind France), so updates will seem oddly timed. I can also empathize a bit and understand that RH is overwhelmed by the KS response they've seen so far, and are scrambling to do as much as they can, as quickly as they can, given the limited human resources at their disposal.
There's a whole month left on this project. I have plenty of time to decide if I want to continue supporting the KS, or drop, and so far, nothing has made me change my mind that RH is doing their best with what they have, and the models (which is ultimately what I'm getting with my pledge) will be worth the wait.
With regards to the update, freaking Katarina Zerga may be the tipping point in my getting some Kurganova stuff, when I'd almost finalized my decision to get just Iron Empire and Jailbirds stuff to start.
Ugh, decisions, decisions...but it's a good thing.
A lot of money!
At the risk of sounding like a whiny cry baby Joe Blow on the Interwebz, $20K to unlock a single model that is then a $10 add-on...
The plan so far certainly looks as if $1M will be necessary to unlock it all - as someone already alluded to/did the math for...
My point is that they let one slip through their stretch goal graphic modification program.
It's pretty clear that a lot more of the stuff would already be unlocked if they weren't going back and further stretching the stretches between the stretch goals.
I admit, I missed it.
So the graphic had a lower unlock price and then was quickly changed?
So the graphic had a lower unlock price and then was quickly changed?
Yeah, they made a mistake or changed their mind about which miniature should be unlocked at $330k: "(oops, image had the wrong number, we switched them around with the previous lady)". no big deal
I personally don't like the 20k gaps. It's a lot of money that doesn't come that fast together and 1.000.000 as a goal is even though it's running good still very optimistic. I don't really care for gifts but the variety. I want to see what I can get and that I can get it, either with an achievable SG like in 5k or 10k or 12.5k or or an SG that is hit which is less likely with 20k. Also 20k for Bernadette which so many people embrace is.. strange in my eyes. 350.000$ is a long way to go. A million is more likely with smaller gaps or something between the gaps.
Well, at least RH is starting to make updates at a time everyone is awake it seems.
WolfStark wrote: Well, at least RH is starting to make updates at a time everyone is awake it seems.
Are they working on a proper update for the main RH kickstarter page? The new SGs only appear on the update page; the main page shows nothing past $310k.
Aye, Bones got those numbers because each goal was giving you the mini at a certain level. From what I remember a lot of the funds came from folks upgrading to the sweet spot as the deal got better and better.
I'm not sure how it works with unlocks to gain pay for mini's, good freebies can help push it on I hope.
This is not based on value mind, I'm already in for $1050, and that will probably rise. I just want this sucker to be huge.
@minx
I don't know, I hope not. I hope they clean the main page completely from the stretch goals. I don't see a point except for the freebies and upgrades, unless they're making a special picture for them too.
Hulksmash wrote:We obviously see things differently but you can't honestly feel like this company is communicating well with it's public can you?
Well. I have plenty of reservations myself, but I keep seeing this crop up and I'm not sure what you guys are looking for. It's been right around 48 hours, right? Give or take? And they've had 4 official updates? I think an update every 12 hours is sufficient. Is the complaint with the content of the updates, somehow? Honest question - what is it, exactly and specifically that you want to see addressed that hasn't been? Presumably if enough people have the same questions the heralds or whatever can push for it to be addressed in an update.
pretre wrote: Wow. That is crazy. It seems like they would want the unlocks to be smaller so that more people would add the $10 model... I just don't get it.
That's a great point. There is a definite curve where by adding them too far apart, they lose money from not allowing people to buy locked items, and on the other end if they are too close, they run out of stuff to unlock and maybe lose steam (hence also losing money). I don't know where the sweet spot is but I think they're a little too far to the former, rather than the middle. But who knows, we'll see how it develops. The said they might tighten up the distance between stretch goals, I think they're probably going to have to.
And seriously, what's up with plastic injection? There - that's the question I haven't seen answered definitively yet. I'm pretty sure at this point if they don't go injection molded they're essentially burning profits.
@Ouze
FAQ:
- We split the casting between two foundries: One in metal and one in resin, so that neither gets overwhelmed with volume should this KS exceed expectations. And if this Kickstarter was to go extremely well, we also have back-up plans for injected plastics.
That's the only thing for sure at the moment, regarding this topic. I am sure we get this answered more clear in the progress. Until now it seems they don't think about it but that could change.
Alpharius wrote: At the risk of sounding like a whiny cry baby Joe Blow on the Interwebz, $20K to unlock a single model that is then a $10 add-on...
Okay, what would you suggest?
a.) Unlock all miniatures on day one and then unlock nothing for the other 32 days?
b.) Unlock an army of 150 individual sculpted models per day (while staying at the keyboard to answer any questions within 10 seconds, night and day, of course)? BTW that would be 4,800 miniatures and 32 armies in total.
Hulksmash wrote: We obviously see things differently but you can't honestly feel like this company is communicating well with it's public can you?
Yes, I honestly feel that way and see things differently.
BTW here a summary of all known stretchgoals in pics, so that a mod can add them to the first post:
12,000$ funded after 30 seconds.
WolfStark wrote: @minx
I don't know, I hope not. I hope they clean the main page completely from the stretch goals. I don't see a point except for the freebies and upgrades, unless they're making a special picture for them too.
That's what i hope as well. Looks a bit strange for the uninitiated otherwise.
For those wanting comparison pictures of the Kurganova Sisters with Dreamforge Games models, here you go:
Spoiler:
I think they scale pretty nicely.
There's also this picture:
Spoiler:
From left to right: DFG Eisenkern trooper, RH, DFG Ada, RH, Space Marine, RH, Cadian. The two sisters on the right are about 1mm-2mm taller than they should be, due to the metal tab extending a bit above the base. Keep in mind that the DFG bases are slightly shorter, and the ladies are wearing high heels, which should make them a bit taller.
Okay, what would you suggest?
a.) Unlock all miniatures on day one and then unlock nothing for the other 32 days?
b.) Unlock an army of 150 individual sculpted models per day (while staying at the keyboard to answer any questions within 10 seconds, night and day, of course)?
Honestly, I'd love it if they went with option A, but cut the time down to like 3 days. I think that when you have three months of "We're going to do a kickstarter" updates, the hype's already there. I don't honestly believe that they're going to add a lot of random stragglers by dragging this out. There are people who know what they want and are already pledged in (and who did so really quickly), and there are people who are waiting until the last minute to see what unlocks before deciding. So, tell them what's going to be unlocked and let them make their pledge (or not) and get on with it.
I don't understand the point of stringing these things out, I really don't. If you're into sci-fi miniatures, you've probably already seen their work, and know it's top quality. Jim's been posting their stuff for a few months now on his blog, and RH has been pimping the kickstarter via both email and facebook for at least two months as well.
Looking at the graphs that Buzzsaw posted earlier, for Malifaux and Deadzone, when you get a bar graph that looks like La_________________________I, there's no good reason not to reduce the middle section. In fact, when you look at the Malifaux one, it's pretty obvious that it went too long because the number of backers/day dropped negative around day 25. There's no compelling reason to drag these things out so long.
So I've been trying to follow what's going on the last few days with this Kickstarter and overall I'm liking the look of it. This may very well be the first Minature Kickstarter I fund but I do have one issue to do with the way they are handling their stretch goals.
After funding a lot of Video games through Kickstarter they way I think it should be working is you propose your idea and how much you need and you're stretch goals are what you would like to do but aren't necessary for the final product. e.g. One of the games I funded said that after X amount of additional funding we can afford to hire this experienced writer to help us with the game.
The stretch goals should never be adjusted based on how fast funds are being raised, they should be a set amount based on how much the project team thinks it will cost. Or maybe minature kickstarters are just handled differently to video game kickstarters and I'm not used to it.
Miniature kickstarters are definately not like most other kickstarters.
Just take a look at the Ouya console...
How many stretch goals did they had?
ZEEEERROOO
And free stuff?
NOOOTHING
Did it became the most successful kickstarter of all time?
Yes.
Why? Because they had a clear goal and needed the money for this.
But a miniature kickstarter without stretchgoals or free stuff seems to be unthinkable. And "stretchgoals" are nowadays more like:
"yeah, our project does not actually need just 12,000$, but it looks so much nicer if we hit 100000% saturation!"
My main concern is pacing and critical mass, secondary is presentation.
Both have to be well timed, I do not think its time for a streachgoal per day yet and I do not count the first day blitz, communication is crucial for setting a temp and this side needs work too.
Presentation is crucial here with so much eye candy it surprisingly needs to be more timid coherent and to the point so people can find their way out.
Looking at the graphs that Buzzsaw posted earlier, for Malifaux and Deadzone, when you get a bar graph that looks like La_________________________I, there's no good reason not to reduce the middle section. In fact, when you look at the Malifaux one, it's pretty obvious that it went too long because the number of backers/day dropped negative around day 25. There's no compelling reason to drag these things out so long.
This slowly grinding line is what transforms the project in having the crucial mass to attract the I in the end.
Redbeard wrote: In fact, when you look at the Malifaux one, it's pretty obvious that it went too long because the number of backers/day dropped negative around day 25. There's no compelling reason to drag these things out so long.
Uh, Malifaux's problems are a whole different can of worms and of all the things wrong with it, "too long" wasn't one of them.
I really don't see the comm complaints? Two large updates and two small ones over 48 hours, and the street team network via the Raging Heralds is pretty good about getting info fast for people who don't want to use the "contact me" function on KS which has also been moving fairly quickly to my knowledge. There was some lag day one, but it's hard to release an update when the money pledged has moved 50 grand up by the time you finish a paragraph.
Mathieu Raymond wrote: Honestly, from a few interactions with them on Facebook, they were just as annoying in French. It came across as if they felt entitled to the adulation of the masses.
I'm in, but not sure if I'll stay.
Yeah, I get the impression my money's not good enough for them.
Maybe they should hire that guy who saved the Through the Breach campaign.
Communication could have been better from the beginning, but I was with Kingdom Death 3 seconds into the campaign and it was similar and I was still enjoyed the experience. The last update Raging Heroes put out allayed pretty much all of my concerns.
The only thing now I'm overly curious about is when we will get to see high quality images of the 3D renders. I want to see everything they've got, and they must have quite a few, because according to their comments on the front page, "we have set up and used for the past several months a sculpting workflow that allows us to create many miniatures quickly without compromising their quality. This means that 80% of the sculpting process will be done by the end of the Kickstarter."
Buzzsaw wrote: You see? It was all a misunderstanding: when they said that the updates would be like "spam", we thought they were using the American version, which is to say "frequent and common".
Well you know how spam is a delicacy in Hawaii? Well it's hard to get spam in France, so what they really meant was "rare and hard-to-find".
Right? Back me up here Euros...
They're doing about one a day. I'm fine with that pace.
Eggs wrote: Still, very early days yet, and the complete opposite of my only other Kickstarter experience (Gates of Antares).
Oh, ouch. I'm sorry to hear GoA was your first. Most of my experiences with KS have been pleasant ones, hopefully this KS will be no different.
Buzzsaw wrote: I am, hard as it may be to believe, actually very interested in this project. That's why I want it to be as well run, and as good a value, as it possibly can be.
Alpharius wrote: We all want to see this succeed, and we all want to be able to field an army's worth (or two!) of fantastic looking miniatures.
Agreed with both Buzzsaw and Alpharius. They're not shy about voicing concerns but I never really take anything they've written as overly negative; it may not be flattering, but it's not malicious. Quite the contrary usually.
greywulf wrote: Communication could have been better from the beginning, but I was with Kingdom Death 3 seconds into the campaign and it was similar and I was still enjoyed the experience.
I dunno about that. Granted I'm just today reading through the KS but that's not the feel I've gotten from it at all.
The list of Kingdom Death stretch goals shows that most of the stretch goals were $25K - $50K apart. So I'm not sure why people are complaining so much here at $20K. As long as everyone, including Raging Heroes, do their part to help spread the word, there will be a whole lot of new chicks with guns in the world.
Sythica wrote: The list of Kingdom Death stretch goals shows that most of the stretch goals were $25K - $50K apart. So I'm not sure why people are complaining so much here at $20K. As long as everyone, including Raging Heroes, do their part to help spread the word, there will be a whole lot of new chicks with guns in the world.
Unless I am very mistaken, "GBU" in that google doc stands for "Game Box Upgrade".
"Survivor" means a free addition to the Survivor pledge level.
Of the 11 stretch goals up to $300,000, a grand total of 2(!) were paid add-ons, 9(!!) were free upgrades to either the base game or the "sweet spot" pledge level.
Seriously, the difference in value between what KD:M added in the first $300k and what RH is doing is... astounding.
Heck, what was the first stretch goal for KD:M?
Yup, 2 free kits (4 miniatures) in the game (GBU).
Soooo... given that, anyone want to explain why RH has thus far had $25-35k stretch goals and at $300k, added... uh, a partial miniature to some pledge levels?
I think the obvious answer because they have been able to raise 300K without giving away freebies. If you don't need the freebies to drum up interest, then it's simply cutting into your margins for no gain.
Many Kickstarter "freebies" were simply already built into the original pledge level anyways. It's all psychology, at that point.
You should only pledge if you want to support the company. How much you pledge should be based on how much you want to support them, and/or the value provided in return for your pledge, at the time of the pledge.
Oh boy. I've barely been able to follow this all day, the big sale is going on on our street. 16K is nothing to scoff at, but it does look like a pittance for such a great product.
Redbeard wrote: I don't understand the point of stringing these things out, I really don't. If you're into sci-fi miniatures, you've probably already seen their work, and know it's top quality. Jim's been posting their stuff for a few months now on his blog, and RH has been pimping the kickstarter via both email and facebook for at least two months as well.
Sure, it's had a lot of exposure in the channels we are familiar with. As it turns out though, those channels are really, really limited.
You know that kickstarter I ran? The one that I "advertised" solely with a thread in N&R in the OT, and no where else. No thread created by me on BOLS, Warseer, not a single reference to it on my own Facebook page. That one thread was it.
So, Dakka should have thrown in the vast majority of pledges, right? It was, literally, the only place I posted it.
Dakka was, at the end, 14.25%.
18% came from the Search function in Kickstarter. 9% came from Discover on tabletop games, on Kickstarter. Another 6% from Recently Launched and Ending Soon on Kickstarter. Another 7% from "kickstarter user profiles" (I don't even know what that is) and 4% from users who starred it on Kickstarter. There were also some big bunches from random places it just kind of showed up, like Something Awful and Kotaku. In the end, almost half of my pledges came from Kickstarter itself; and they did so very very consistently - a few percentage points a day for the entire run of the project.
So, while they may have tapped the well of DakkaDakka, BOLS, Warseer etc users within the first day or two, it's a little provincial to think that those users are the entire pool they're going to reach. At least, that's not how it worked in my limited anecdotal experience.
This chart Alpharius posted sums it up perfectly:
Yeah, they went nuts the first day - $250,000 in a single day! Now they're going to be making way less then that; only $34k today. Of course, even if they only average out $20k a day, for the rest of the project, that's another $600,000 - significantly more than that first day that looks so fancy.
I find it illogical for backers to publicly criticize the company they are backing during the campaign. If you are a supporter, it would seem to make the most sense to support them publicly, so that others may be encouraged to support. After, nobody is a "customer" at this stage.
If you think they are doing something wrong, send them a PM.
Imagine an investment firm putting money into a start-up, and then filling up forums with how badly the company is run.
After the campaign is over, public discussion would make a lot more sense, so everyone can learn what works and what doesn't.
Hulksmash wrote:We obviously see things differently but you can't honestly feel like this company is communicating well with it's public can you?
Well. I have plenty of reservations myself, but I keep seeing this crop up and I'm not sure what you guys are looking for. It's been right around 48 hours, right? Give or take? And they've had 4 official updates? I think an update every 12 hours is sufficient. Is the complaint with the content of the updates, somehow? Honest question - what is it, exactly and specifically that you want to see addressed that hasn't been? Presumably if enough people have the same questions the heralds or whatever can push for it to be addressed in an update.
And seriously, what's up with plastic injection? There - that's the question I haven't seen answered definitively yet. I'm pretty sure at this point if they don't go injection molded they're essentially burning profits.
While I'm not personally too fussed (I'm just enjoying the thread), I cam imagine that while the campaign was going ape gak for the first couple of days, people would have appreciated the updates to be much more frequent, and then to slow down when the campaign itself slows down.
With the injection-moulded plastic, I think they might be pulling a Mantic here and keeping it as a tantalising last-step final-stretch goal to pull out at the last minute in an effort to get people to pledge for additional extras. Rather than actually putting it in where it could easily happen. With so many different sculpts as well, don't expect "all troops" to suddenly turn into plastic, and it's also clear with the "two foundries" statement that they intend to tool and cats the vast majority of the campaign via metal and spin-cast.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sythica wrote: I think the obvious answer because they have been able to raise 300K without giving away freebies. If you don't need the freebies to drum up interest, then it's simply cutting into your margins for no gain.
Many Kickstarter "freebies" were simply already built into the original pledge level anyways. It's all psychology, at that point.
You should only pledge if you want to support the company. How much you pledge should be based on how much you want to support them, and/or the value provided in return for your pledge, at the time of the pledge.
That's how miniatures Kickstarters used to work, and some of the smaller ones still do. Bigger Miniatures campaigns (Mantic, CMON, RH) have evolved into being all about manipulating the consumer into dropping down a fortune with the promise of "added value" stretch goals.
Hulksmash wrote:We obviously see things differently but you can't honestly feel like this company is communicating well with it's public can you?
Well. I have plenty of reservations myself, but I keep seeing this crop up and I'm not sure what you guys are looking for. It's been right around 48 hours, right? Give or take? And they've had 4 official updates? I think an update every 12 hours is sufficient. Is the complaint with the content of the updates, somehow? Honest question - what is it, exactly and specifically that you want to see addressed that hasn't been? Presumably if enough people have the same questions the heralds or whatever can push for it to be addressed in an update.
And seriously, what's up with plastic injection? There - that's the question I haven't seen answered definitively yet. I'm pretty sure at this point if they don't go injection molded they're essentially burning profits.
While I'm not personally too fussed (I'm just enjoying the thread), I cam imagine that while the campaign was going ape gak for the first couple of days, people would have appreciated the updates to be much more frequent, and then to slow down when the campaign itself slows down.
With the injection-moulded plastic, I think they might be pulling a Mantic here and keeping it as a tantalising last-step final-stretch goal to pull out at the last minute in an effort to get people to pledge for additional extras. Rather than actually putting it in where it could easily happen. With so many different sculpts as well, don't expect "all troops" to suddenly turn into plastic, and it's also clear with the "two foundries" statement that they intend to tool and cats the vast majority of the campaign via metal and spin-cast.
I have a feeling it won't be a giant, "And now everything is plastic," sorta thing. I have a feeling its more likely to be something like "Meet this stretch goal and the x box/model will be produced in plastic."
Sythica wrote: I find it illogical for backers to publicly criticize the company they are backing during the campaign. If you are a supporter, it would seem to make the most sense to support them publicly, so that others may be encouraged to support. After, nobody is a "customer" at this stage.
If you think they are doing something wrong, send them a PM.
Imagine an investment firm putting money into a start-up, and then filling up forums with how badly the company is run.
After the campaign is over, public discussion would make a lot more sense, so everyone can learn what works and what doesn't.
We're all existing and potential customers of RH. Constructive criticism (as opposed to general bitching) is more useful for both sides of the transaction (and indeed, any business or creative endeavour) than slavering fanboi fellatio.
With the injection-moulded plastic, I think they might be pulling a Mantic here and keeping it as a tantalising last-step final-stretch goal to pull out at the last minute in an effort to get people to pledge for additional extras. Rather than actually putting it in where it could easily happen. With so many different sculpts as well, don't expect "all troops" to suddenly turn into plastic, and it's also clear with the "two foundries" statement that they intend to tool and cats the vast majority of the campaign via metal and spin-cast.
I have a feeling it won't be a giant, "And now everything is plastic," sorta thing. I have a feeling its more likely to be something like "Meet this stretch goal and the x box/model will be produced in plastic."
With the injection-moulded plastic, I think they might be pulling a Mantic here and keeping it as a tantalising last-step final-stretch goal to pull out at the last minute in an effort to get people to pledge for additional extras. Rather than actually putting it in where it could easily happen. With so many different sculpts as well, don't expect "all troops" to suddenly turn into plastic, and it's also clear with the "two foundries" statement that they intend to tool and cats the vast majority of the campaign via metal and spin-cast.
I have a feeling it won't be a giant, "And now everything is plastic," sorta thing. I have a feeling its more likely to be something like "Meet this stretch goal and the x box/model will be produced in plastic."
Indeed.
As I said, then.
Yep, I see that now. Just trying to be a bit clearer.
When I was speaking about Kingdom Death I was talking about communication, and specifically referring to the fact that from the get go Adam (Kingdom Death man) was almost always at least 3 hours behind on updates. It was a bit of a downer at first but his updates always pulled me back up... The last 2 updates from Raging Heroes have done the same for me. Yah... cause I'm a junkie, and I need a hit...
As for stretches, KDM also averaged about 1 a day, and I'll admit I was hesitant about a few things for the first few days but by the end of the campaign was more than satisfied. I trust it will be the same here.
Redbeard wrote: I don't understand the point of stringing these things out, I really don't. If you're into sci-fi miniatures, you've probably already seen their work, and know it's top quality. Jim's been posting their stuff for a few months now on his blog, and RH has been pimping the kickstarter via both email and facebook for at least two months as well.
Sure, it's had a lot of exposure in the channels we are familiar with. As it turns out though, those channels are really, really limited.
You know that kickstarter I ran? The one that I "advertised" solely with a thread in N&R in the OT, and no where else. No thread created by me on BOLS, Warseer, not a single reference to it on my own Facebook page. That one thread was it.
So, Dakka should have thrown in the vast majority of pledges, right? It was, literally, the only place I posted it.
Dakka was, at the end, 14.25%.
18% came from the Search function in Kickstarter. 9% came from Discover on tabletop games, on Kickstarter. Another 6% from Recently Launched and Ending Soon on Kickstarter. Another 7% from "kickstarter user profiles" (I don't even know what that is) and 4% from users who starred it on Kickstarter. There were also some big bunches from random places it just kind of showed up, like Something Awful and Kotaku. In the end, almost half of my pledges came from Kickstarter itself; and they did so very very consistently - a few percentage points a day for the entire run of the project.
To be fair, people like me showed up under "search function" because the Dakka thread disappeared and we had to go searching for it. "Wasn't there a flying butt Kickstarter? (search) There it is."
I do agree with your overall point, however. RH should use their entire time on KS to get more money. I just don't agree that they should do so by artificially stretching out their current roster of stretch goals instead of thinking up more ambitious ones to follow on their earlier plan. They just come across as greedy now, and I certainly don't feel like I want to support a company that is so disingenuous with their funding requirements and so stingy rewarding people for pre-ordering product at least a year before receiving it.
How much interest do you think we could theoretically make on the pledge money by the time we see any models? Is the KS discount and meager freebie(s?) likely to be worth that? How about the enjoyment you could have gotten from currently-selling minis from companies like Hasslefree or On the Lamb, who actually seem to like their customers?
For me, this is where I see the frustration coming from.
Azazelx wrote: While I'm not personally too fussed (I'm just enjoying the thread), I cam imagine that while the campaign was going ape gak for the first couple of days, people would have appreciated the updates to be much more frequent, and then to slow down when the campaign itself slows down. .
I woudl suspect that those cmopulsively watching the total shoot upwards would have been in the minority. For everyone else, checking their emails the following day and having a dozen updates all sitting int hei inbox from the past day would have just been irritating.
greywulf wrote: When I was speaking about Kingdom Death I was talking about communication, and specifically referring to the fact that from the get go Adam (Kingdom Death man) was almost always at least 3 hours behind on updates. It was a bit of a downer at first but his updates always pulled me back up... The last 2 updates from Raging Heroes have done the same for me. Yah... cause I'm a junkie, and I need a hit...
As for stretches, KDM also averaged about 1 a day, and I'll admit I was hesitant about a few things for the first few days but by the end of the campaign was more than satisfied. I trust it will be the same here.
Uh, what?
KD:M launched at midnight on Friday, November 23, 2012.
48 hours later Adam had posted his tenth update. This also marked the unlock of the first paid add-on (all previous updates had been announcements of free additions to either the base game or the Survivor pledge level). 48 hours into the campaign, Adam had given backers the following;
-5 Kings Men,
-1 Extra Phoenix monster,
-1 Extra Watcher monster,
-16 (8 male, 8 female) multipose miniatures.
It was not until after all the above was added that Adam put up the first paid add-on (the Flower Knight expansion).
BobtheInquisitor wrote: and I certainly don't feel like I want to support a company that is so disingenuous with their funding requirements and so stingy rewarding people for pre-ordering product at least a year before receiving it.
I don't know about the former, but I wholly agree with the latter.
People have been saying ITT "stop trying to get freebies you cheap punks, be happy you can get the product you paid for at the price listed" - yeah, no. That's a totally fair argument for a retail store, not a Kickstarter. For a Kickstarter I expect and demand things well above and beyond what someone can buy off the shelf a year from now because I'm the one that has to wait for it to be made, and the one taking a chance that the project even happens. Maybe they're crossing the street to get some croissants, and get hit by a bus. Maybe they decide $350,000 goes a lot further in Mexico than it does in France and they decide to move there and spend it all on tequila and tacos. If any of those happen (and yes, they're unlikely) then the legal options available to individual backers boils down to a sad, knowing shrug from Kickstarter. So yes, I absolutely expect there to be some recompense to compensate for all these risk factors. Angel investors don't get into a startup so that they can buy shares at fair market value after the launch happens.
Part of the problem is that too many people don't understand the purpose of Kickstarter. Making a pledge does not make you a customer. It makes you a backer. When you pledge, there is absolutely no guarantee that you will get anything in return for your pledge. They may go out of business between now and delivery. If that makes you uncomfortable, wait for the product to go up for pre-order on a webstore. Then you will be a customer, not a backer.
And therefore, as a backer, it should be in your best interest to see the total amount of pledges and backers increase. That should help ensure a strong, future customer base.
You have three choices as a backer: passive support, active support, or counter-productive support. Being an active supporter doesn't mean you should ignore the things they are doing wrong. It means you should bring it to their attention directly, not to the attention of people who may be on the fence about backing in the future.
Azazelx wrote: While I'm not personally too fussed (I'm just enjoying the thread), I cam imagine that while the campaign was going ape gak for the first couple of days, people would have appreciated the updates to be much more frequent, and then to slow down when the campaign itself slows down. .
I woudl suspect that those cmopulsively watching the total shoot upwards would have been in the minority. For everyone else, checking their emails the following day and having a dozen updates all sitting int hei inbox from the past day would have just been irritating.
Please refer to Buzzsaw's post. Also bear in mind that Aussies and Kiwis who went to bed aside, the people who were piling in the money in the first day, especially those first hours were/are those who were the most invested in it, and the ones who would be the most likely to be watching it and keen to see more updates.
Well, theoretically, in this thread there are heralds gathering concerns and bringing them to the attention RH... right?
Nothing wrong with publicly dissecting a project because seeing how they roll with concerns is useful to project how agile they will be with actual production snafus.
Additionally, this is a public discussion thread, not a rah-rah RH thread. If someone's not a backer, never wants to be one, and wants to come in this thread solely for pointing out perceived flaws or problems, that's totally within their rights to do so.
Absolutely. If you don't want to back a project, and you have a reason not to do so, it may make sense to talk about it. I was speaking towards the people who are saying they are already backers, but they are not happy. As Mr. Spock would say: "That's highly illogical."
Sythica wrote: Part of the problem is that too many people don't understand the purpose of Kickstarter. Making a pledge does not make you a customer. It makes you a backer. When you pledge, there is absolutely no guarantee that you will get anything in return for your pledge. They may go out of business between now and delivery. If that makes you uncomfortable, wait for the product to go up for pre-order on a webstore. Then you will be a customer, not a backer.
And therefore, as a backer, it should be in your best interest to see the total amount of pledges and backers increase. That should help ensure a strong, future customer base.
You have three choices as a backer: passive support, active support, or counter-productive support. Being an active supporter doesn't mean you should ignore the things they are doing wrong. It means you should bring it to their attention directly, not to the attention of people who may be on the fence about backing in the future.
Quoted for sense. I wish there was more logic in this thread.
Not at all. A person can back on the future expectation of changes that would make them stay a backer. Anybody can drop at any time before this thing closes, so backing early (especially to lock in one of those early bird specials) makes perfect sense, even if they don't care for everything going on right now. If things change by the end, they stick with their pledge and pay up. If not, they drop from the project
Part of the problem is that too many people don't understand the purpose of Kickstarter. Making a pledge does not make you a customer. It makes you a backer. When you pledge, there is absolutely no guarantee that you will get anything in return for your pledge. They may go out of business between now and delivery. If that makes you uncomfortable, wait for the product to go up for pre-order on a webstore. Then you will be a customer, not a backer.
And therefore, as a backer, it should be in your best interest to see the total amount of pledges and backers increase. That should help ensure a strong, future customer base.
You have three choices as a backer: passive support, active support, or counter-productive support. Being an active supporter doesn't mean you should ignore the things they are doing wrong. It means you should bring it to their attention directly, not to the attention of people who may be on the fence about backing in the future.
Let me put it as simply as possible: I believe that everything that you have just said is either wrong or irrelevant. However, rather then write out my reasons at length yet again, I invite you to read this thread.
I am not yet so arrogant as to pretend that thread is revealed truth: but it an accurate representation of the thought process of individuals such as myself who believe that to point out mistakes is valuable feedback, far more valuable then passive engagement or uncritical support.
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recruittons wrote: Not at all. A person can back on the future expectation of changes that would make them stay a backer. Anybody can drop at any time before this thing closes, so backing early (especially to lock in one of those early bird specials) makes perfect sense, even if they don't care for everything going on right now. If things change by the end, they stick with their pledge and pay up. If not, they drop from the project
Listen to this man, he has the biscuit to prove it!
Sythica wrote: Part of the problem is that too many people don't understand the purpose of Kickstarter. Making a pledge does not make you a customer. It makes you a backer. When you pledge, there is absolutely no guarantee that you will get anything in return for your pledge. They may go out of business between now and delivery. If that makes you uncomfortable, wait for the product to go up for pre-order on a webstore. Then you will be a customer, not a backer.
And therefore, as a backer, it should be in your best interest to see the total amount of pledges and backers increase. That should help ensure a strong, future customer base.
You have three choices as a backer: passive support, active support, or counter-productive support. Being an active supporter doesn't mean you should ignore the things they are doing wrong. It means you should bring it to their attention directly, not to the attention of people who may be on the fence about backing in the future.
OK new poster. We've had the "purpose of kickstarter" debate multiple times ad nauseum in the past, and we're pretty much all past it at this stage, even Zweischneid (sp?). I don't think anyone here is interested in your lecture on what you think we "should" be doing, and frankly, it's rather condescending for someone with 8 posts to come on and start telling the rest of us what we should and should not be talking about and how we should best do it. Yes, your post count is actually significant in this case, as you're not an established member of the community at this stage, and so while you're most welcome to join in discussions, people tend not to look too kindly on "strangers" coming in and trying to tell existing communities how to behave. Most online forums including Dakka - and indeed, different sections of the Dakka board - as a whole are essentially different communities and sub-communities with different "regulars" and in turn, different social norms. Try acting the same way you might on Frothers here on Dakka and you'll see. I post slightly differently here than the way I do on my own blog, or f13.
Frankly, people in an established community with established norms tend not to appreciate new posters* coming in and attempting to direct traffic in this manner. So please bear that in mind.
(and even if you've been lurking for the last 18 months.. 8 posts makes you a new poster)
So please be welcome, stay, join in and contribute to the discussion. Don't tell us how we "should" behave or what we "should" post.
As an interesting sidenote, if someone backs early, and then drops out on their pledge, and they had one of the Early Bird specials, does it become available again?
Jimsolo wrote: As an interesting sidenote, if someone backs early, and then drops out on their pledge, and they had one of the Early Bird specials, does it become available again?
Kroothawk wrote: Okay, what would you suggest?
a.) Unlock all miniatures on day one and then unlock nothing for the other 32 days?
Yes. The three month wait front-loaded the pledges, so they should have responded by front-loading the stretch goals - at least the ones that don't give you anything free. If $300,000 is enough to justify making everything in all three ranges, they should have made everything in all three ranges. Dicking around with things like this just punishes everyone for pledging promptly - we would all be better off if people had pledged $20,000 on the first day and stopped and waited until Raging Heroes locked themselves into a new block of stretch goals.
Sythica wrote: Absolutely. If you don't want to back a project, and you have a reason not to do so, it may make sense to talk about it. I was speaking towards the people who are saying they are already backers, but they are not happy. As Mr. Spock would say: "That's highly illogical."
recruittons wrote: Not at all. A person can back on the future expectation of changes that would make them stay a backer. Anybody can drop at any time before this thing closes, so backing early (especially to lock in one of those early bird specials) makes perfect sense, even if they don't care for everything going on right now. If things change by the end, they stick with their pledge and pay up. If not, they drop from the project
Well put, recruittons. I'm not unhappy, but I'm not particularly excited, either. If/when campaigns put in "early bird" level pledges to manipulate their potential backers into diving in early, expect a great deal of those pledges to be speculative. Larger Miniatures Kickstarters are a meta-game. RH is playing it, extending the stretch goals based on the campaign rather than the amount of funds required, hinting at "you'll be happy with the extras at the end of the campaign", teasing the promise of injection moulded plastics "if the campaign does really well" without actually giving a number.
Kroothawk wrote: Okay, what would you suggest?
a.) Unlock all miniatures on day one and then unlock nothing for the other 32 days?
Yes. The three month wait front-loaded the pledges, so they should have responded by front-loading the stretch goals - at least the ones that don't give you anything free. If $300,000 is enough to justify making everything in all three ranges, they should have made everything in all three ranges. Dicking around with things like this just punishes everyone for pledging promptly - we would all be better off if people had pledged $20,000 on the first day and stopped and waited until Raging Heroes locked themselves into a new block of stretch goals.
Of course. But that's part of the game. And it's why "Early Bird" pledges exist - to stop us from waiting until the second-last day to pledge.
greywulf wrote: When I was speaking about Kingdom Death I was talking about communication, and specifically referring to the fact that from the get go Adam (Kingdom Death man) was almost always at least 3 hours behind on updates. It was a bit of a downer at first but his updates always pulled me back up... The last 2 updates from Raging Heroes have done the same for me. Yah... cause I'm a junkie, and I need a hit...
As for stretches, KDM also averaged about 1 a day, and I'll admit I was hesitant about a few things for the first few days but by the end of the campaign was more than satisfied. I trust it will be the same here.
Uh, what?
KD:M launched at midnight on Friday, November 23, 2012.
48 hours later Adam had posted his tenth update. This also marked the unlock of the first paid add-on (all previous updates had been announcements of free additions to either the base game or the Survivor pledge level). 48 hours into the campaign, Adam had given backers the following;
-5 Kings Men,
-1 Extra Phoenix monster,
-1 Extra Watcher monster,
-16 (8 male, 8 female) multipose miniatures.
It was not until after all the above was added that Adam put up the first paid add-on (the Flower Knight expansion).
And yet he was hours behind each update, as I said, and the average by the end of the campaign was about a stretch a day. I said nothing about freebies for various reasons. On the freebie front I want to wait another week to see how things turn out before making any final judgment.
Sythica wrote: Part of the problem is that too many people don't understand the purpose of Kickstarter. Making a pledge does not make you a customer. It makes you a backer. When you pledge, there is absolutely no guarantee that you will get anything in return for your pledge. They may go out of business between now and delivery. If that makes you uncomfortable, wait for the product to go up for pre-order on a webstore. Then you will be a customer, not a backer.
And therefore, as a backer, it should be in your best interest to see the total amount of pledges and backers increase. That should help ensure a strong, future customer base.
You have three choices as a backer: passive support, active support, or counter-productive support. Being an active supporter doesn't mean you should ignore the things they are doing wrong. It means you should bring it to their attention directly, not to the attention of people who may be on the fence about backing in the future.
OK new poster. We've had the "purpose of kickstarter" debate multiple times ad nauseum in the past, and we're pretty much all past it at this stage, even Zweischneid (sp?). I don't think anyone here is interested in your lecture on what you think we "should" be doing, and frankly, it's rather condescending for someone with 8 posts to come on and start telling the rest of us what we should and should not be talking about and how we should best do it. Yes, your post count is actually significant in this case, as you're not an established member of the community at this stage, and so while you're most welcome to join in discussions, people tend not to look too kindly on "strangers" coming in and trying to tell existing communities how to behave. Most online forums including Dakka - and indeed, different sections of the Dakka board - as a whole are essentially different communities and sub-communities with different "regulars" and in turn, different social norms. Try acting the same way you might on Frothers here on Dakka and you'll see. I post slightly differently here than the way I do on my own blog, or f13.
Frankly, people in an established community with established norms tend not to appreciate new posters* coming in and attempting to direct traffic in this manner. So please bear that in mind.
(and even if you've been lurking for the last 18 months.. 8 posts makes you a new poster)
So please be welcome, stay, join in and contribute to the discussion. Don't tell us how we "should" behave or what we "should" post.
Whoa, there Azazelx! Sounds like a bit of a sore spot. I understand that someone new coming in and trying to throw their weight around is very annoying (and I personally agree with you; I hate that crap) but I don't think that was necessarily what was happening here. I think that Sythica was trying to bring up a legitimate point, not railroad us into doing things his way. Personally, I think his post makes a whole lot of sense. In addition, his post is composed with a degree of civility and logic that I often find sadly lacking on forums, so I hope he sticks around Dakka!
That being said, Sythica, this is one of those 'matter of perception' situations. I (and I think Azazelx) see this matter a little differently. I take the view that I am agreeing to pay in advance for my order so that they will be able to get the project going. Just because Kickstarter calls us backers doesn't mean we're equal partners in the business venture, taking miniatures in lieu of money, anymore than Kickstarter's use of the term 'donation' doesn't mean we're contributing to a charity. We are customers, just customers who are enthused enough about the product to pay in advance. I am a customer, even though I'm not getting minis today. I'm just a customer who is enamored enough with the product to not only pay WELL in advance (even if it takes well into 2014) but to take the risk of the company folding. (Although I would be very, very sad.) You're point of view is likely to lead you to be more sanguine about the company collapsing, but it's not the only view out there. As a sidenote, welcome to Dakka!
Ouze wrote: I don't think someone's post count virtually ever influences the accuracy or value of their posts.
I found their post to be distinctly about proscribing how we should be behaving here, rather than sharing an opinion on the KS. It's about social norms, respect and awareness. We'e had the "purpose of KS" argument a million times already, and with that as the opening statement followed by telling people here how they should act, it's not an especially valuable contribution to the discussion. I'm much more likely to take on board a post by you, Kroot, Squig or even Duncan Idaho suggesting how we should post/behave, because those people are established members of the community and have made numerous worthwhile contributions.
For example, it's like me wandering into your house, finding you slouched on your couch drinking a 3-litre Coke, smoking a cigar and then telling you off for poor posture, diabetes, nicotine addiction and throat cancer. Maybe your friends or wife can tell you off for that, but until we get to know each other a bit better first it's probably better that I don't make that my introduction to you...
NOW EVERYONE DO WHAT I SAY! ESPECIALLY YOU, THE READER!!1!!
yeah, people love that.
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greywulf wrote: I said nothing about freebies for various reasons. On the freebie front I want to wait another week to see how things turn out before making any final judgment.
Wait for the final day or two before being too concerned about those. While it's not a great/encouraging start, we've got a long way to go yet.
Of course. But that's part of the game. And it's why "Early Bird" pledges exist - to stop us from waiting until the second-last day to pledge.
Can you explain Mantic's approach, then? It was like a game of red light/green light.
I really hope RGH doesn't wait to throw in plastics as some absurd stretch goal in the last half hour. I also hope they lose the arrogance that just assumes they will break a million dollars on this project no matter how little effort they put into it.
Ouze wrote: I don't think someone's post count virtually ever influences the accuracy or value of their posts.
I found their post to be distinctly about proscribing how we should be behaving here, rather than sharing an opinion on the KS. It's about social norms, respect and awareness. We'e had the "purpose of KS" argument a million times already, and with that as the opening statement followed by telling people here how they should act, it's not an especially valuable contribution to the discussion. I'm much more likely to take on board a post by you, Kroot, Squig or even Duncan Idaho suggesting how we should post/behave, because those people are established members of the community and have made numerous worthwhile contributions.
For example, it's like me wandering into your house, finding you slouched on your couch drinking a 3-litre Coke, smoking a cigar and then telling you off for poor posture, diabetes, nicotine addiction and throat cancer. Maybe your friends or wife can tell you off for that, but until we get to know each other a bit better first it's probably better that I don't make that my introduction to you...
NOW EVERYONE DO WHAT I SAY! ESPECIALLY YOU, THE READER!!1!!
yeah, people love that.
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greywulf wrote: I said nothing about freebies for various reasons. On the freebie front I want to wait another week to see how things turn out before making any final judgment.
Wait for the final day or two before being too concerned about those. While it's not a great/encouraging start, we've got a long way to go yet.
It isn't your house it's yakfaces house :/ if your a guest in someones' house I assume you act welcoming to people who've just arrived.
You have had the discussion on KS a million times, but the poster you lambasted hasn't or doesn't agree with you.
As for post count meaning something, pffft post count means nothing it's just some crap way of whining "i've been in this club longer".
It's not, technically, any one poster's house. It's more accurate to say that it's a public park we all enjoy (sponsored by a private, wealthy benefactor), that also has a pool that's full of pee yet queerly popular anyway (...that's a different topic). Anyway, I didn't see it as "telling us what to do" so much as pointing out their perspective of what they consider to be counter-useful.
I don't agree with the thought you need to earn a place on Dakka to weigh in on things, generally - and from the administrative postings Yakface and Lego have made about not wanting there to be too many DCM features because they want the same experience available to everyone; I suspect they don't either - but we're well offtopic now I suppose.
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KalashnikovMarine wrote: Anyone got a source for wheeled scifi APCs (think Aliens) in the United States? I think my Kruganova girls need some armored support...
You can find actual Aliens APC's in the right scale on Ebay, such as here.
For things styled the same, I think you might like Antenocitis Workshop quite a bit.
KalashnikovMarine wrote: Anyone got a source for wheeled scifi APCs (think Aliens) in the United States? I think my Kruganova girls need some armored support...
The Dreamforge APC is a beast. Not avaialble for purchase yet, but hopefully by end of year.
On that note, anyone have a good source for an anti-aircraft mount that would be the right scale for 40k? My RH minis are going to be the infantry of my guard list, but I'm going to need a could of Hydras to round it out...
AlexHolker wrote: Yes. The three month wait front-loaded the pledges, so they should have responded by front-loading the stretch goals - at least the ones that don't give you anything free. If $300,000 is enough to justify making everything in all three ranges, they should have made everything in all three ranges. Dicking around with things like this just punishes everyone for pledging promptly - we would all be better off if people had pledged $20,000 on the first day and stopped and waited until Raging Heroes locked themselves into a new block of stretch goals.
Of course. But that's part of the game. And it's why "Early Bird" pledges exist - to stop us from waiting until the second-last day to pledge.
"The game" stinks. "The game" is why I went out of my way to tell Raging Heroes before the Kickstarter started that I have less desire to support a company that expects its customers to jump through hoops just to buy their product. I'm going to be seriously annoyed if we miss out on the proper plastics because Raging Heroes was fething around with this gamification of pre-orders instead of just getting on with it.
KalashnikovMarine wrote: Anyone got a source for wheeled scifi APCs (think Aliens) in the United States? I think my Kruganova girls need some armored support...
Khurasan makes some in 28mm too, nice stuff for cheap. Though they are out of stock atm.
Has Raging Heroes actually said anything about plastics? Ever? I looked again on their website, and the Kickstarter page, and still haven't found it. The only mention I have found is similar Kickstarters from other companies and speculation within this thread. Is there some official mention of plastic minis that I've missed (a very real possibility given the hectic two days I've had) or is this all supposition?
I pledged my money with no expectation of plastic minis. As I understand it, plastic holds less detail than resin or metal. Since I'm in this for pretty minis, not cheap ones, I would be severely disappointed if I wound up with figs that were cheaper, but lower quality.
Jimsolo wrote: On that note, anyone have a good source for an anti-aircraft mount that would be the right scale for 40k? My RH minis are going to be the infantry of my guard list, but I'm going to need a could of Hydras to round it out...
I like the one from Old Crow, but they might be hard to find, the site seems to indicate he's on some project. but email him if you like it and see.
Jimsolo wrote: Has Raging Heroes actually said anything about plastics? Ever? I looked again on their website, and the Kickstarter page, and still haven't found it.
Scroll all the way to the bottom of the main Kickstarter page.
- We split the casting between two foundries: One in metal and one in resin, so that neither gets overwhelmed with volume should this KS exceed expectations. And if this Kickstarter was to go extremely well, we also have back-up plans for injected plastics.
I'd rather have RGH go with metal and resin, some things they know about and proved they can deal with, than having them trying plastic for such a large campaign. The only thing it would add is delays.
Indeed, unless they've been working to get at least one plastic tool cut so that they can ensure it lives up to their usual stands then a last ditch switch to plastic for this KS is probably not going to be a good thing.
On the subject of yesterday's update, it's a shame that we're still seeing 20k between stretch goals, but I guess once we have a couple of slower days that'll probably change.
That said, I am a little surprised that we've not had a few more pledges since the update given "everyone" was going crazy for the nurse that's now the 350k unlock. Guess we'd have had more if she was thrown in free at 350k rather than available to purchase.
The main mistake RGH made was to assume that a 30% discount on retail price is a deal good enough for people. They should have put the normal price, and throw 30% of "free" minis in it ...
Do you guys think that RH would really lower the gap between stretches at this point when they realize that the campaign has stalled? I just get the impression that they are going to stick with how they are running things now.
grefven wrote: Do you guys think that RH would really lower the gap between stretches at this point when they realize that the campaign has stalled? I just get the impression that they are going to stick with how they are running things now.
I really can't say, they seem to chop and change a lot. This can be good and bad, but I am a little surprised at no freebies before $300k, so maybe it really did freak them out and they wanted to wait until it stopped.
scarletsquig wrote: Way, way, way too early to talk about the campaign stalling.
The numbers are fairly typical for a kickstarter loaded with highly-limited early birds and an extremely long amount of hype leading up t it.
The difference with this KS is that this one was building up for 5 months. So unless they add more during the campaign it's not going to chug along in the same way (as there really isn't much reason to up pledges at the moment).
It's really just looking at new pledges... which will be slow.
JeffVimes wrote: The main mistake RGH made was to assume that a 30% discount on retail price is a deal good enough for people. They should have put the normal price, and throw 30% of "free" minis in it ...
Like I said, Goldsword prices for basic infantry.
Symbio Joe wrote: Unless they open up an option for other people who do not believe in the conveniece of credit cards like me.
This is pretty much guaranteed. The fees are lower on Paypal than Amazon+Kickstarter, so they're actually better off if people do this.
The tradeoff is Amazon/Kickstarter have no dispute process or other mechanism for forced refunds, while Paypal does - that can lead to it's own headaches.
JeffVimes wrote: The main mistake RGH made was to assume that a 30% discount on retail price is a deal good enough for people. They should have put the normal price, and throw 30% of "free" minis in it ...
Like I said, Goldsword prices for basic infantry.
Symbio Joe wrote: Unless they open up an option for other people who do not believe in the conveniece of credit cards like me.
This is pretty much guaranteed. The fees are lower on Paypal than Amazon+Kickstarter, so they're actually better off if people do this.
Yes, but as part of the KS it's less likely.
You could just buy them directly from them using pay-pal
Since it's been promised by Asharah Raging but I've seen nothing about it yet, does anyone know when exactly Paypal's payments are going to be able to pledge towards this particular kickstarter? All my spendable money is tied up inside my Paypal, and I can't pledge with it. Without pledging, I'm unable to leave any comments on the KS page asking about it. Can any one of you pledgers/heralds help me out here?
KalashnikovMarine wrote: Anyone got a source for wheeled scifi APCs (think Aliens) in the United States? I think my Kruganova girls need some armored support...
Of course. But that's part of the game. And it's why "Early Bird" pledges exist - to stop us from waiting until the second-last day to pledge.
Can you explain Mantic's approach, then? It was like a game of red light/green light.
I really hope RGH doesn't wait to throw in plastics as some absurd stretch goal in the last half hour. I also hope they lose the arrogance that just assumes they will break a million dollars on this project no matter how little effort they put into it.
Without snark, I just can't figure out what the feth Mantic's plan was/is. Especially with the KoW end at the same time, and the less-then-wonderful product reveals that were a part of it. As you say, though - it really did feel like they alternately tried to throttle, then accelerate their pledges depending on the day, weather and phase of the moon. They were clearly playing the game, though.
I don't agree with the thought you need to earn a place on Dakka to weigh in on things, generally - and from the administrative postings Yakface and Lego have made about not wanting there to be too many DCM features because they want the same experience available to everyone; I suspect they don't either - but we're well offtopic now I suppose.
Not, not to weigh in on things at all. I read their post to be much more a new person coming in telling us how they felt we should behave and post rather than learning and following the existing norms and took offence at that. Sharing opinions is of course fine. The reason I'm a DCM isn't so I could be part of the cool kids' club. I didn't even realise there were DCM forums for awhile (months?) after I put in, and rarely use them now. I became a DCM because I found was using the site a lot and wanted to support it (server fees, etc) Anyway, I'm happy to let that particular tangent lie now, unless we need to make more fight about it?
Jimsolo wrote: On that note, anyone have a good source for an anti-aircraft mount that would be the right scale for 40k? My RH minis are going to be the infantry of my guard list, but I'm going to need a could of Hydras to round it out...
Quite a few of the Polish resin producers have various not-razorback turrets and such that could work. Some also have versions that mount Not-dreadnought arms. Check Kromlech/Maxmini/Bitspudlo/Puppetswar/Forge Planet. Make sure you check out their feedback in their threads before sending money, though!
@Alex - I'm not a fan of "the game" either, but it is what it is. This is what Miniatures-Kickstarters have become.
JeffVimes wrote: I'd rather have RGH go with metal and resin, some things they know about and proved they can deal with, than having them trying plastic for such a large campaign. The only thing it would add is delays.
It's metal and spin-cast plastic (ie, Restic - Mantic, Sedition Wars, etc). "Proper" resin isn't part of this KS.
prankster wrote: Indeed, unless they've been working to get at least one plastic tool cut so that they can ensure it lives up to their usual stands then a last ditch switch to plastic for this KS is probably not going to be a good thing.
On the subject of yesterday's update, it's a shame that we're still seeing 20k between stretch goals, but I guess once we have a couple of slower days that'll probably change.
That said, I am a little surprised that we've not had a few more pledges since the update given "everyone" was going crazy for the nurse that's now the 350k unlock. Guess we'd have had more if she was thrown in free at 350k rather than available to purchase.
Current count: $305,879 - 1,322 pledges
Well, the pledges are made up of "x number of heroines" etc. So people will just be factoring them in with their existing pledges, unless they're playing Kickstarter-Pokemon with no intent to go back and buy some more at retail later. I'm just counting her as one of the figures I'll get with my existing pledge.
Ouze wrote:Sure, it's had a lot of exposure in the channels we are familiar with. As it turns out though, those channels are really, really limited.
You know that kickstarter I ran? The one that I "advertised" solely with a thread in N&R in the OT, and no where else. No thread created by me on BOLS, Warseer, not a single reference to it on my own Facebook page. That one thread was it.
I think this is not an accurate comparison. You didn't spend three months building interest on facebook. You didn't spend two months having one the busiest hobby blogs showcase your other work. You didn't spend three months building interest with regular email updates about the kickstarter, or have more than one popular blog showing your demo sketches to guide people to those emails.
Suffice it to say, I believe this KS project was widely known, even outside of dakka, from day one.
This chart Alpharius posted sums it up perfectly:
Yeah, they went nuts the first day - $250,000 in a single day! Now they're going to be making way less then that; only $34k today. Of course, even if they only average out $20k a day, for the rest of the project, that's another $600,000 - significantly more than that first day that looks so fancy.
If they average $20k/day for the rest of the project, I'll be really shocked. Happy, but shocked. I guess we'll see.
That pledges-per-day-chart looks just like the pledges distribution for most other kickstarter projects for miniatures, doesn't it?
Large peak during the first one or two days, due to some sort of built up excitement or hype and special early discounts, and then a long stretch of lower contributions. During that long stretch the kickstarter project accumulates 25-50% of the final number of backers, even though they apparently do not spend too much until the very last days for a final rush and another peak in the pledged-$-per-day-chart.
From that point of view everything looks fine. I guess we'll get one more unlocked stretch goal today and part of the next one. But perhaps the current stretch goal spacing is too large for the lower rate of backers in the following days. $5-10k might be the way to go. We'll see.
Well, Day 3 is a fair bit short of what I would have expected, but then again the point was well made that this one has been advertised for months.
They need new people pledging right now, as there's $250k worth of initial pledgers waiting to see what they can actually get without worrying about add-ons.
I don't think Raging Heroes should have had any early bird discounts. They did a great job getting the word out, so that many, many people knew when it was starting. Without EB pledges, maybe a few less people would have pledged "on spec", and thus reduced the number of complaints people have that they have pledged for something that doesn't currently meet their value expectations.
And to address a few other posts:
Of course the Kickstarter debate has happened many times before, in forums (original use of the word) much more important than here. Parts of Kickstarter's success is that it does generate debate. And it doesn't help for us that miniature companies game the system, which rarely happens in other categories. But the position I described is the position that Kickstarter describes, in their Terms and Conditions, their Guidelines, and when they have participated in the debate.
And I was expecting the "new user" bashing, but chose to post anyway, due to a desire to help Raging Heroes succeed, despite their mistakes. My post count does not accurately reflect my use of this site (5-6 years), or my years in the hobby (29). The only reason I am posting here at all is that a certain other well-known forum run by control freaks actively hides their Crowding Funding Topics (how does that make any sense?). But if you would prefer this discussion remains an old boys club, I guess that's the reason why it doesn't make sense to elect new politicians. Apparently, only the opinions of those that have been there before matter.
I do apologize if anyone found my tone condescending. I'm an aerospace engineer, so I've been trained to keep my writing in a certain, factual based tone.
Yeah, the whole "This is what Kickstarter is for" and "This is how Kickstarter should be used" discussions tend to be hot buttons because, quite frankly, on that subject, everyone is right.
And wrong!
Kickstarter is a crowdfunding site - the ultimate 'vote with your wallet' experience.
If KS allows something on there, and allows it to stay on there, then it is obviously something that KS thinks 'should be on there.
If it funds, then 'the people' agree.
As for not offering criticism during a campaign? That's downright laughable.
Any good Kickstarter makes adjustments mid-campaign - all the time.
Know No Pear wrote: Since it's been promised by Asharah Raging but I've seen nothing about it yet, does anyone know when exactly Paypal's payments are going to be able to pledge towards this particular kickstarter? All my spendable money is tied up inside my Paypal, and I can't pledge with it. Without pledging, I'm unable to leave any comments on the KS page asking about it. Can any one of you pledgers/heralds help me out here?
Sythica wrote: I don't think Raging Heroes should have had any early bird discounts. They did a great job getting the word out, so that many, many people knew when it was starting. Without EB pledges, maybe a few less people would have pledged "on spec", and thus reduced the number of complaints people have that they have pledged for something that doesn't currently meet their value expectations.
And to address a few other posts:
Of course the Kickstarter debate has happened many times before, in forums (original use of the word) much more important than here. Parts of Kickstarter's success is that it does generate debate. And it doesn't help for us that miniature companies game the system, which rarely happens in other categories. But the position I described is the position that Kickstarter describes, in their Terms and Conditions, their Guidelines, and when they have participated in the debate.
And I was expecting the "new user" bashing, but chose to post anyway, due to a desire to help Raging Heroes succeed, despite their mistakes. My post count does not accurately reflect my use of this site (5-6 years), or my years in the hobby (29). The only reason I am posting here at all is that a certain other well-known forum run by control freaks actively hides their Crowding Funding Topics (how does that make any sense?). But if you would prefer this discussion remains an old boys club, I guess that's the reason why it doesn't make sense to elect new politicians. Apparently, only the opinions of those that have been there before matter.
I do apologize if anyone found my tone condescending. I'm an aerospace engineer, so I've been trained to keep my writing in a certain, factual based tone.
OK, I'll reply. Firstly for clarification and secondly for discussion.
I have absolutely no interest in newbie bashing, nor in attempting to deny any user, new or old in expressing their opinion. There are at least two other new posters I have "met" in this thread and had nothing but cordial discussion with them. Your reasons for choosing to post here in a limited fashion are interesting, but by the by. I took offence at your tone and replied to explain why I felt you were being disrespectful in the way you shared your opinion. The fact that you're a new poster does in fact exacerbate that, due to the tone that you chose to use in that post, in a "who the feth is this guy?" manner - since you have chosen not to contribute or take part in this community until now. I additionally fail to see why your career should have any bearing on how you choose to write a post. When I write for academic purposes, I don't use the conversational, often sarcastic tone that I use here.
Having said all of that, I will accept your apology, and genuinely reiterate the welcome and hope that you'll stay on here that I posted in that first reply to you.
On your other point, I do agree with you. I don't think Early Bird discounts are especially good for either the producer nor the consumer, as they create unrealistic expectations on both sides, and we end up with the now-common spikes on Day 1/2 29/30 with little in the middle. This now also happens with many of the smaller projects like RBG that don't have the same scope as something like RH. We consumers have been trained.
Addressing your previous points, when someone tries to restart the "what KS is really for" debate here, it's usually shut down by one of the mode pretty quickly, as it's perceived as an irrelevant meta-argument. I've had posts of my own on the topic deleted, and frankly, the will of Dakka's benevolent overlords appears to be that it's been done to death, and to talk about it in a new thread in Dakka discussions or something and not in individual KS threads.
I don't also know how many people are truly on the fence with these big campaigns when compared to those who are big fans or haters, nor do I think that critical discussion on (unimportant) forums (online use of the word, sorry) such as this one really have on making people's mind up one way or the other. I see absolutely no value to my fellow consumer or community member in sending RH a PM saying "excuse me guys, I'm a tad concerned that you might take 6 months longer to fulfill your obligations than you say." I do see a value in telling people "these guys have a proven track record of being months late, so know that going in." After all, we're the ones taking the risks with our money. Forewarned is forearmed, and so on. I often fill the critical "black hat" role at work, and frankly, it's a task I enjoy and also do in many of my posts here. But really, Mantic games has an often incredibly critical audience here at Dakka, and they appear to be doing quite decently out of Kickstarter. Posts that serve merely to insult or deride a company are usually pretty transparent. After all, people don't come to an online discussion as tabula rasa - they come with existing opinions and biases, for or against.
Asharah Raging wrote: We will indeed set up a Paypal page for people wanting to access the KS pledge levels, price and freebies, but unfortunately, please note that it cannot be linked to the Kickstarter system (their choice, not ours) and so, will not give access to the KS comments. It will be set up in the next few days.
Asharah Raging wrote: We will indeed set up a Paypal page for people wanting to access the KS pledge levels, price and freebies, but unfortunately, please note that it cannot be linked to the Kickstarter system (their choice, not ours) and so, will not give access to the KS comments. It will be set up in the next few days.
Hope this helps
A'ight, cool! She gave me an answer like that too, but that was before the launch. :| Time to wait longer, then.
Finally got our first 8-hour sleep night in over 2 weeks! Watch out world! ;-)
We'll be working on a new update as soon as we get in the office.
And don't worry, everything is awesome and because of your great support, there's no chance of having key characters ending up not unlocked!
So, time to start waiting for another update. Though not sure what they're going to put in it though, other than maybe some more art work / posters.
Finally got our first 8-hour sleep night in over 2 weeks! Watch out world! ;-)
We'll be working on a new update as soon as we get in the office.
And don't worry, everything is awesome and because of your great support, there's no chance of having key characters ending up not unlocked!
So, time to start waiting for another update. Though not sure what they're going to put in it though, other than maybe some more art work / posters.
$308,422 current pledge level
Those are some strange 'office hours' - it is already almost 5PM in France!
Can't wait for the next update - it should tell us a lot about the direction of this campaign for the next week or so.
I suspect the main reason why we don't see bursts of funding when a stretch goal is unlocked is because there's no need to add more money to get the new model, when you can simply choose it as one of the models you're already getting as a part of your pledge. I went in as an early bird general, so I'll be waiting until close to the end of the project before reviewing all of the options available that I might want and adjusting my pledge accordingly.
So far, this KS's performance looks exactly like all the others: big burst in the first day or two, then small steady growth until the last day or two.
As far as the hype and build up for this project, I doubt it's as extensive as some people might think. Even with the "extensive hyping" on Dakka and other places, in my core gaming group of six people, I'm the only one who knew about the project. Anecdotal evidence, I agree.
Finally got our first 8-hour sleep night in over 2 weeks! Watch out world! ;-)
We'll be working on a new update as soon as we get in the office.
And don't worry, everything is awesome and because of your great support, there's no chance of having key characters ending up not unlocked!
So, time to start waiting for another update. Though not sure what they're going to put in it though, other than maybe some more art work / posters.
$308,422 current pledge level
Those are some strange 'office hours' - it is already almost 5PM in France!
Can't wait for the next update - it should tell us a lot about the direction of this campaign for the next week or so.
Unfortunately, the quantum universe of infinite possibilities has really collapsed to two realistic options;
1) Decrease the interval between unlocks, or
2) Leave the unlocks at the same interval.
All other options degenerate into those two. Social Media contests to open goals (Ye Old Back-o-Meter, anyone?) are simply a variation on option 1 (and have the unmistakable smell of... well, nothing nice).
Of course, they still need to introduce better designed pledge packages, which is problematic. I know that I am holding onto an Early Bird special that poorly fits my desires, because there isn't really a better option yet. But introducing a better options means I (and thus people in my position) give up expensive, ill-fitting options in order to take advantage of better options, they face a short term loss. It would be in favor of a long term viability, but thus far long-term thinking... well, it doesn't seem to be all that prioritized so far.
Well, this project hasn't pulled a Thon yet, that's good. It seems like there's been an awful lot of criticism towards how this one's being run since pretty much day one.
A couple things to bear in mind about plastics production.......
1............ They already have the money to produce almost everything they have shown in plastic if they want to and still make a tidy profit.
2............Plastics WILL reduce the fidelity of detail. Seriously this cannot be overstated enough.
3........... Many of the reputable plastics production firms are currently booked well into next year and RH still has A LOT of models to Digi- build ( unless they already have them made and are just not showing them. ) which will put anything they do not have ready now more than a year out to begin production.
Plastics production is really probably NOT a good idea for RH. I would not do it if I were them. There are just WAY too many ways it can go wrong.
..................Have they not publicized their resin spin casting contractor service yet?
Didn't this say they're shipping in March 2014 though? That's nearly a year away. I'd say they probably have plenty of time to contract it out for plastic production.
Barzam wrote: Well, this project hasn't pulled a Thon yet, that's good. It seems like there's been an awful lot of criticism towards how this one's being run since pretty much day one.
Thon? Not understanding the context of that one...
There has been some very vocal critiques of the KS. Some of them have been very solid, well thought-out ones. I don't necessarily agree with their conclusions, but they come from a place of logic. And those people are usually offering constructive critiques as well. I see most of it as healthy for the KS in general, as RH have stepped up to address many concerns.
Barzam wrote: Well, this project hasn't pulled a Thon yet, that's good. It seems like there's been an awful lot of criticism towards how this one's being run since pretty much day one.
Yeah, that's probably why it got funded in 30 seconds, made 120,000 $ in less than an hour and more than 300,000 $ in just three days, because noone likes this project and it is buried in criticism
Some people seem to blame Raging Heroes, that unlike GW, they announced this project more than a week in advance, as if that is a bad thing. I am not sure if any other non-US-UK company succeeded in meeting all kickstarter requirements, but it is a hell of an effort that takes its time and is not totally predictable.
Also I want to repeat that RH is confident that all designed models will be unlocked during this kickstarter, so no need to panic the first three days.
In the long run and most probably after the kickstarter, it is possible that RH will do vehicles fitting the motorbikes and Mechas released by then.
2............Plastics WILL reduce the fidelity of detail. Seriously this cannot be overstated enough.
This was and remains my main concern with plastic production. I'm really only interested in these minis for how they look, and reducing the detail would be very saddening.
tre manor wrote: 2............Plastics WILL reduce the fidelity of detail. Seriously this cannot be overstated enough.
Actually it can be overstated and frequently is. You may or may not like GW's new kits but you cannot deny that they are incredibly detailed. Also, Dream Forge has their entire Eiserken line in plastic and the detail on those is amazing. Can do do better in resin? Of course. But let's not pretend that there is no way to cut a model apart and put it on a sprue that will retain most of the detail with only minor consessions.
tre manor wrote: Plastics production is really probably NOT a good idea for RH. I would not do it if I were them. There are just WAY too many ways it can go wrong.
You cannot possibly be serious. A fair number of people have already mentioned that they will likely reduce their pledge amounts if there are no plastics (and have said they would raise it if there were). Dream Forge and Mantic have pretty much proven that plastic is the way to go.
It sounds like, financially, RH would indeed benefit from plastic production Breotan.
I, personally, still don't want plastic minis. I know that the new GW kits (the cultists in particular) have really upped the detail, but they are (in my opinion) still nowhere near what Raging Heroes puts into their sculpts, and I don't want to sacrifice quality for price. I'm willing to pay extra to get higher quality sculpts. I understand if other people aren't, and would rather have sculpts that are cheap, and just 'really good' as opposed to 'mind blowing.'
As a side note, what is the expected benefit from plastic? Are people anticipating that the price will drop, and they will get more minis? I confess that I'm new to this whole Kickstarter thing, so I don't really know how things have gone in the past, or how people are thinking they are going to go now.
I think the GWDE showed how much detail could be retained in multipart plastic. As do Dreamforges Eiserken.
With the quality available now you get more into the range of pointless detail that can still be retained in metal/resin vs. qualative detail which plastic catchs in it's entirety.
tre manor wrote: Plastics production is really probably NOT a good idea for RH. I would not do it if I were them. There are just WAY too many ways it can go wrong.
You cannot possibly be serious. A fair number of people have already mentioned that they will likely reduce their pledge amounts if there are no plastics (and have said they would raise it if there were). Dream Forge and Mantic have pretty much proven that plastic is the way to go.
I'll have to disagree with you, partially. I'm not a fan of Mantic's plastics. Wyrd? Yes. Dreamforge? Yes. Mantic's offerings seem anemic in comparison (with the possible exception of their undead).
Still, only a minor quibble, and your point stands.
Barzam wrote: Well, this project hasn't pulled a Thon yet, that's good. It seems like there's been an awful lot of criticism towards how this one's being run since pretty much day one.
Yeah, that's probably why it got funded in 30 seconds, made 120,000 $ in less than an hour and more than 300,000 $ in just three days, because noone likes this project and it is buried in criticism
Some people seem to blame Raging Heroes, that unlike GW, they announced this project more than a week in advance, as if that is a bad thing. I am not sure if any other non-US-UK company succeeded in meeting all kickstarter requirements, but it is a hell of an effort that takes its time and is not totally predictable.
A lot of the criticism is down to perception, I think. Saying that they have been working on this for a year, and exclusively for the past 6 months and then taking hours to update once goals are hit creates a perception of shenanigans. Not saying that there are any, but the perception is certainly fairly widely held, judging by the comments on the KS page and various message boards around.
Plus, they flat out said they adjusted the intervals at one point, if I remember correctly.
Personally, I'm a total observer on this one. I like most, if not all, of the concept art, but not a big fan of the execution on their previous figures. Scale/proportion issues for me.
As to what kind of detail they can or cannot get in plastic, that is largely down to whom is actually manufacturing them. They will have to make less concessions if they have a supplier with tech similar to Wargames Factory than if their supplier has tech similar to Renedra. It is doable, but Tre is probably right that they will sacrifice some detail, no matter who makes them.
Actually it can be overstated and frequently is. You may or may not like GW's new kits but you cannot deny that they are incredibly detailed. Also, Dream Forge has their entire Eisencorps line in plastic and the detail on those is amazing. Can do do better in resin? Of course. But let's not pretend that there is no way to cut a model apart and put it on a sprue that will retain most of the detail with only minor consessions.
compare the detail of the digital models that Dream Forge or Wyrd use compared to the detail levels of the Raging Heroes.
It will, overtyrant. Don't panic (yet)!
The campaign seems to be a bit front-loaded and the RH kickstarter main page is not as organized as it could be. I expect the number to go up slightly over the coming days.
@LnR I understand that you are running a business and business better has carefully laid plans. So you can't act like the reckless wild bunch of hobbyists (us) you are dealing with. On the other hand as a business you want to sell your (great!) goods. Wouldn't it be good to hear what customers want most and then sell a lot of that? Well, guess I'm cracking wise. Just keep in mind - people pledge on kewl stuff they see. But on silhouettes? I won't. :-)
Creator Loud'n Raging about 3 hours ago
@Tommy: Thanks for your wise comments. And please know that we're listening, and that's a promise. We're actually well-known for asking and adapting to feedback, so that won't change. But with 29 days to go, that does leave time to unveil the hidden ladies. Contrary to some other Kickstarters, we chose to show (through silhouettes, it's true) most of the minis making up the 3 armies right off the bat, rather than trickling them out 2 stretch goals at a time. So this way, people get to see how they COULD spend their pledge, even if everything is not yet unlocked. Somehow, methinks we wouldn't have been off to such a strong launch if we had started off with only a quarter of what's on the page rather, and no silhouettes...
We're about 4 hours removed from the first hint of an update - this was about the same stretch of time between announcement of update and actual update yesterday, so we should see something soon.
Indeed, about four hours since they popped back up on KS. Though that doesn't mean we're overly close to them posting anything, given the wildly differing times between them saying they're working on an update and it appearing.
Other than that it's been a quiet day. Only a few hundred dollars this afternoon. Not enough to say it's stalled, but it does look a little disconcerting at this stage.
Kroothawk wrote: I am not sure if any other non-US-UK company succeeded in meeting all kickstarter requirements, but it is a hell of an effort that takes its time and is not totally predictable.
First one that comes to mind is the Maki Games terrainKS that's been ticking along quite nicely since it kicked off.
Barzam wrote: Well, this project hasn't pulled a Thon yet, that's good. It seems like there's been an awful lot of criticism towards how this one's being run since pretty much day one.
Yeah, that's probably why it got funded in 30 seconds, made 120,000 $ in less than an hour and more than 300,000 $ in just three days, because noone likes this project and it is buried in criticism
Some people seem to blame Raging Heroes, that unlike GW, they announced this project more than a week in advance, as if that is a bad thing. I am not sure if any other non-US-UK company succeeded in meeting all kickstarter requirements, but it is a hell of an effort that takes its time and is not totally predictable.
Also I want to repeat that RH is confident that all designed models will be unlocked during this kickstarter, so no need to panic the first three days.
In the long run and most probably after the kickstarter, it is possible that RH will do vehicles fitting the motorbikes and Mechas released by then.
Whoah, whoah, hold up there Kroot. I'm not against this Kickstarter at all. It just seemed to me that a lot of people have been criticisizing it and the way it's been handled so far. I've seen a lot of people talking about lowering their pledges, too. Remember, Thon had funded fairly quickly too. It even hit its first stretch goal. Sure, it wasn't nearly as fast as this one was nor as heavily funded, but it did fund and did have a fair bit of initial support. And I wasn't being sarcastic when I said it's good that this hasn't turned into another Thon. I'm glad it's still going strong.
Kroothawk seems overly invested in this one for some reason - it is almost as if he's lost the ability to discuss it rationally.
But THON is a good example to bring up here, even though I don't think this one will implode at all, there is some concern over a stall and/or backslide that could prevent everything from 'unlocking', and if that happens, nearer to the end this one could experience quite the roll back.
Still, we're due an update today, and hopefully that one will allay everyone's concerns.
I think what's concerning people is that RH has the quality and pedigree to do fantastic like Kingdom Death and thus far are doing "merely" very well. My personal opinion is that it is far too early in the process to be worried; we're not even through the first week. Are there things to be aware of? Sure, like there's a risk of early backers dropping out if the value proposition doesn't change and that until the timer reads all zeroes, none of that money is guaranteed. Are these things that are going to cause a huge issue? Doubtful.
I think most people who are criticizing RH are doing so because they see potential far in excess of actual performance and are trying to show areas that RH could make adjustments to get those two things closer together. They are offering constructive criticism on things that could be improved, and that's a good thing. They aren't saying "Those snobby French bastiches just want to take your money and don't care about the product nor consumer" or any other attacks, they are merely saying "many other companies have found greater success with this or that tack."
RH is within their rights to do things their way, because each company and situation is unique. To ignore ideas on improvement, which should be noted is different from discounting after deeming it unfeasible, is folly from any company and I doubt RH is doing that (who knows for sure though?). To get upset at someone offering said critiques intended to improve things is likewise folly for a consumer. If nothing happens, then you were happy with how things were anyway, right? If they make things better, then you benefit as well. Let people have their polite and constructive say and let the company decide what is in their best interest.
I'm not sure of the need to defend any company really, except from a baseless attack such as "RH is just a GW knock-off" or similar nonsense.
Again, I don't think the biggest 'issue' is the lack of freebies - it is the lack of options being unlocked and the, to date, slow pace of said unlocks.
Again, maybe they'll address this, change this, ignore this, etc.
I think a big issue with this KS is that it isn't a boardgame (Kingdom Death, Sedition Wars) or it isn't a prepackaged deal (Deadzone, Bones), and too many people may have been expecting something like that. It's closer to Bombshell Babes, Damsels of Darkmyre, or Dreamforge Games in that you essentially pledge a certain amount of money and select a certain number of miniatures to fulfill that pledge. You get some freebies as goals are unlocked, as well as many more additional options.
Perhaps the problem Raging Heroes faces is that they basically showed us all of the potential options at the beginning. I think they should have kept up to half of the models a secret, revealing them only as stretch goals as the days go by. That way, everybody's initial pledge is according to what they see at the beginning, and each new unlock allows them to increase pledges. As it stands now, you can set your pledge at the very beginning to cover all the models you could possibly want, and unless a surprise comes along, there's little need to up your pledge (since the unlocks can be chosen as part of your pledge, instead of as an addition to it).
Perhaps another issue is the expectations we now have for gaming Kickstarter projects. We expect lots of stretch goals. We expect lots of extra options to appear after the start of the project. We expect freebies. We expect all of that in abundance. What we don't expect is for gaming Kickstarters to be like the majority of the nongaming Kickstarters where pretty much all you get is what you pledged for at the beginning, with maybe a bonus option or freebie or two, and that is what this project is looking like.
A few times now, RH has stated that they were following KS's suggestions in how to run things (less frequent updates, etc.), so these suggestions from KS may have guided the entire creation of this project. We, as gamers, know that this style is not as effective for games (we've all been through many of them: Sedition Wars, Zombicide, Bones, Deadzone, etc.), but Raging Heroes may not have had this experience to draw on. That has hurt them (how much, we can't be certain, as the Kicktraq charts that are posted so far look pretty much like all the other projects we've been a part of). But, RH do seem to be learning from it.
Perhaps the problem Raging Heroes faces is that they basically showed us all of the potential options at the beginning. I think they should have kept up to half of the models a secret, revealing them only as stretch goals as the days go by. That way, everybody's initial pledge is according to what they see at the beginning, and each new unlock allows them to increase pledges. As it stands now, you can set your pledge at the very beginning to cover all the models you could possibly want, and unless a surprise comes along, there's little need to up your pledge (since the unlocks can be chosen as part of your pledge, instead of as an addition to it).
Honestly, this is what I liked most about this KS. I know what I'm getting upfront. I think that if they had gotten me to pledge for a couple of minis, and then trickled out surprise unlocks in order to string me along and empty out more cash on the table, I would feel less like I was dealing with an artist and more like I was dealing with either a con man or a crack dealer. That seems very underhanded and manipulative to me.
My take on it is that RH has implied that due to the huge initial success, they already plan to unlock everything. The reason for the larger intervals and the adjusted schedule of unlocked extras is because they want to pace it out, so that we don't wind up with everything unlocked in the first two days. And I'm fine with that. I've got a pretty good idea of the things that are coming (even the ones which aren't unlocked), which ones I want, and I've pledged accordingly. There's no reason for them to have to spin me around like a street huckster to get more cash out of me. I actually appreciate the rather straightforward approach they've taken in that regard.
I think you're right in that they could have made more money with a more manipulative, less ethical approach, but on the whole I find this a refreshing change. That is, of course, just my opinion, and it could be totally wrong.
Tannhauser42 wrote: I think a big issue with this KS is that it isn't a boardgame (Kingdom Death, Sedition Wars) or it isn't a prepackaged deal (Deadzone, Bones), and too many people may have been expecting something like that. It's closer to Bombshell Babes, Damsels of Darkmyre, or Dreamforge Games in that you essentially pledge a certain amount of money and select a certain number of miniatures to fulfill that pledge. You get some freebies as goals are unlocked, as well as many more additional options.
Perhaps the problem Raging Heroes faces is that they basically showed us all of the potential options at the beginning. I think they should have kept up to half of the models a secret, revealing them only as stretch goals as the days go by. That way, everybody's initial pledge is according to what they see at the beginning, and each new unlock allows them to increase pledges. As it stands now, you can set your pledge at the very beginning to cover all the models you could possibly want, and unless a surprise comes along, there's little need to up your pledge (since the unlocks can be chosen as part of your pledge, instead of as an addition to it).
Perhaps another issue is the expectations we now have for gaming Kickstarter projects. We expect lots of stretch goals. We expect lots of extra options to appear after the start of the project. We expect freebies. We expect all of that in abundance. What we don't expect is for gaming Kickstarters to be like the majority of the nongaming Kickstarters where pretty much all you get is what you pledged for at the beginning, with maybe a bonus option or freebie or two, and that is what this project is looking like.
A few times now, RH has stated that they were following KS's suggestions in how to run things (less frequent updates, etc.), so these suggestions from KS may have guided the entire creation of this project. We, as gamers, know that this style is not as effective for games (we've all been through many of them: Sedition Wars, Zombicide, Bones, Deadzone, etc.), but Raging Heroes may not have had this experience to draw on. That has hurt them (how much, we can't be certain, as the Kicktraq charts that are posted so far look pretty much like all the other projects we've been a part of). But, RH do seem to be learning from it.
Very well put together post, and probably the most level-headed analysis I've seen of past projects compared to the RH project in this thread so far. I'm content to wait and see at this point.
In addition, the one mention of injected plastics on the Kickstarter main page is, I think, being misinterpreted. My read on it was that the plans for injected plastics were in the future. (As in: if this project shows that there is a higher demand for our type of work, we will look into making a line of plastic minis as well.) I do not think it was intended to be read as an intent to turn these minis into plastics.
I'm kind of torn at the minute. I realise that it's early days, but I just checked how much UK pounds I have pledged for what is currently looking like around 30-35 (admittedly stunning) minis. £120
For not that much more, I can pick up a Warmachine starter box, a Dust tactics starter, and an Infinity Aleph starter. (about £150) I've been drooling over all three systems for a while. That bags me 51 minis, including two walkers and four warjacks, along with rules, dice, tokens etc etc to actually play two of the three systems.
Some may argue that TGG minis are nicer, but I'm not sure they are so much nicer that I'm willing to hold off on those purchases to get some models in a year or so's time. Thinking I might bomb on this one, and just pick stuff up retail once I see the final product.
Alpharius wrote: Kroothawk seems overly invested in this one for some reason - it is almost as if he's lost the ability to discuss it rationally.
Well, I have yet to find a rational criticism to this kickstarter. I met your claim of no RH updates with a quoted update found in this thread, how unrational of me. I met the criticism of too few unlocks with presenting the graph of all unlocks and counting the 90 high quality miniatures already unlocked, most of them multi-pose. I met the criticism of an unsuccessful start with numbers and facts. I met the criticism of how long the preparation time took with stating the difficulties of non US-UK companies to take part in kickstarters. If US citizens have to wait for an update until dawn in Europe, I asked for patience and common sense. If dakka members chatting online all day criticize RH for not chatting all day but doing furhter work on this monster project, I asked for patience and common sense. If all this is unrational, then so be it.
Kroothawk wrote: Well, I have yet to find a rational criticism to this kickstarter. I met your claim of no RH updates with a quoted update found in this thread, how unrational of me.
Don't you know, making an accusation of bias is a classic attempt to discredit someone's opinion? They're unable to speak rationally, because of emotional investment, and thus their opinion should be ignored. I, however, find your comments to be some of the most rational in this thread. I feel Dakka's expectations for a Kickstarter drive have become irrational. The forum has come to expect the equivalent of one minute (one month?) in the Cash Grab Booth.
Making any sort of prediction on the success or failure of this Kickstarter at such an early point in it's life may be unreasonable. We have three days of activity to gauge the whole of the process by. I'm not calling for an end to speculation, please speculate! That's what this forum is for. I'm just pointing out that those who feel such speculation is premature are not, by default, irrational.
I have happily pledged at the Lieutenant level and patiently await updates. Of course, I eagerly anticipate the next update! As most of us are. I think that's the real issue. We are all excited for this Kickstarter, to the point of frothing at the mouth. There is scent of freshly roasted meat and we are all eager to sate our ravenous appetites. Any barking this forum does before we're served is simply that, barking.
Alpharius wrote: Kroothawk seems overly invested in this one for some reason - it is almost as if he's lost the ability to discuss it rationally.
Well, I have yet to find a rational criticism to this kickstarter. ... If dakka members chatting online all day criticize RH for not chatting all day but doing furhter work on this monster project, I asked for patience and common sense. If all this is unrational, then so be it.
Barzam wrote: Well, the only real complaint I've got is that there isn't a low level pledge just for troops.
If i understood correctly RH are in the process of creating new pledge levels for both more heroines, like the painter level, or more troop-centric offers. Perhaps the heralds know more about this or could ask (again).
Kroothawk wrote: Well, I have yet to find a rational criticism to this kickstarter.
I think that there are several reasonable critiques. I think it might be best to try and assemble them into a coherent list, and maybe we can check them off as they are addressed, or keep them in mind if they are not addressed at the end of the project if you remain on the fence about it.
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1.) What are the plans for plastic injection molding?
We split the casting between two foundries: One in metal and one in resin, so that neither gets overwhelmed with volume should this KS exceed expectations. And if this Kickstarter was to go extremely well, we also have back-up plans for injected plastics
Several people have said ITT that they mean the material known as "plestic", which is spin-cast. This is clearly not what they have said. I think most people would agree it's going "extremely well", yes? So perhaps an update on that front.
2.) Will there be more frequent updates?
(I personally don't buy into this one too much - 4 updates in 3 days seems acceptable. But Buzzsaw et al have explained cogently why they disagree, and others sure seem to want them, so it's a concern).
3.) Will the spacing between the unlocks contract as the project slows down?
(I personally think this was asked and answered, but it's a repeat concern.)
4.) Will you add some pledges for troops only, without heroines?
They've mentioned more heroine only levels, but no troop only levels. I haven't got that much I can spend, so as I've said before, something like the Private level except with a box of troops instead of a heroine would be great.
Speaking for myself: I just went in with some cash ($154 Lieutenant) and will definitely adjust my plea at a later stage.
But... with so many figs unlocked (and no real reason to change my plea right now) I - and probably many others - will wait until the last minute (or after, using a Pledge Manager) to add more funds so that I can get the minis I want.
So, this leaves RH in a bit of a dilemma.
Most new funds (at this point) for the KS will come from new customers - but they risk missing out on a very big pile of cash from the early backers who might not throw in extra money just before the lock.
IMHO: If RH want us early backers to put in more cash at this point they need to release limited edition miniatures, available only as add-ons on existing pleas (Zombiecide style).
I.e. "Up your plea with $10 to get Andrea Wachowsky, an unique Heroine (limited run of 200)"-ish.
Alternatively, "Up your plea with $30 before June 20 to get "The Lulus", including the limited edition Danyella Straub".
As RH have all their sculpting in CAD, making unique sculpts ought to be rather easy (weapon/head swap and inverted pose?) and not that expensive.
Throwing this in in case others aren't reading the comments and/or it doesn't make it to an actual update.
Loud'n Raging wrote: less than a minute ago
Regarding the heavy weapons questions for the CG boxes: when the free upgrades unlock, you'll end up having enough choices to do pretty much what you want.
Also, what would be interesting for us is to know what kind of Heavy Weapons you're mostly seeking, because at this stage of the project, there's still room to manœuvre.
I think, once the motorbikes and then the mechas are revealed, most backers will feel the need to add considerably to their pledge. And if 1000 backers add 100$, that is something.
Kroothawk wrote: I think, once the motorbikes and then the mechas are revealed, most backers will feel the need to add considerably to their pledge. And if 1000 backers add 100$, that is something.
The problem is not that $100,000 isn't something, it's that it isn't enough.
The degree to which people seem to be underestimating the problem of the new stretch goal interval cannot be overstated. That $100,000, for example, is 5 stretch goals. Five! 1/8 or so of just what we know needs to be unlocked.
So has everyone else been doing their pledge math?
I know essentially what I want out of this KS and the Kruganova shock troopers.
Heroines: Ivanka Kruganova, Commander Electra, Irina Vega, Karmina Noxx, the Kruganova Tank Hunter, possibly the Shock Troops standard bearer and the Not Tech Priestess from the iron empire.
Than 30 infantry to form two squads, 15 heavy infantry to back them up.
Here's the various ways I can do that.
(Math includes freebies and the KS exclusive model in model count, support units are counted as three models since I'm not really considering bikes and mechs haven't been unlocked yet)
Painter
$118 shipped (+$5 for 1x $15 heroine)
4x grunts, 2x CS - $90
1x HCS 2x HS - $60
$273 total
54 Minis total
I could also do this with a Captain's box, but the upgrade is $40 difference, and only nets me seven more models, most in the form of support units I don't want.
tre manor wrote: 2............Plastics WILL reduce the fidelity of detail. Seriously this cannot be overstated enough.
Actually it can be overstated and frequently is. You may or may not like GW's new kits but you cannot deny that they are incredibly detailed. Also, Dream Forge has their entire Eiserken line in plastic and the detail on those is amazing. Can do do better in resin? Of course. But let's not pretend that there is no way to cut a model apart and put it on a sprue that will retain most of the detail with only minor consessions.
tre manor wrote: Plastics production is really probably NOT a good idea for RH. I would not do it if I were them. There are just WAY too many ways it can go wrong.
You cannot possibly be serious. A fair number of people have already mentioned that they will likely reduce their pledge amounts if there are no plastics (and have said they would raise it if there were). Dream Forge and Mantic have pretty much proven that plastic is the way to go.
I think Tre is more than qualified to make this statements and I agree, GW abilities to cram detail on flat surfaces and their inability to hide undercuts even n quite visible areas would not benefit this project full of curves and organic forms at all, the only way around it would be a "gazillion" parts per models and a ridiculously high price for moulds.
They do not need plastics and frankly from the companies that did go on plastics, all in my opinion lost their details, like Wyrd.
PsychoticStorm wrote: GW abilities to cram detail on flat surfaces and their inability to hide undercuts even n quite visible areas would not benefit this project full of curves and organic forms at all, the only way around it would be a "gazillion" parts per models and a ridiculously high price for moulds.
Space Hulk would like to disagree with you. I also think they've shown quite well they can cram all sorts of detail into models with only a few pieces. Dark Vengeance certainly had plenty of detail in their organic (Cultists & Hellbrute) models.
PsychoticStorm wrote: They do not need plastics and frankly from the companies that did go on plastics, all in my opinion lost their details, like Wyrd.
Any lack of detail in a Wyrd model can be attributed to the guys working with the 3d sculpting (CAD) program, not the mold making technology. Again, Dream Forge clearly shows what can be done with plastic and I think skilled sprue creation will allow the TGG figures to easily keep most of the detail. It will also allow RH to produce a nearly endless supply of these amazing models where pouring resin will be incredibly time consuming given the expected number of orders.
PsychoticStorm wrote: GW abilities to cram detail on flat surfaces and their inability to hide undercuts even n quite visible areas would not benefit this project full of curves and organic forms at all, the only way around it would be a "gazillion" parts per models and a ridiculously high price for moulds.
Space Hulk would like to disagree with you. I also think they've shown quite well they can cram all sorts of detail into models with only a few pieces. Dark Vengeance certainly had plenty of detail in their organic (Cultists & Hellbrute) models.
PsychoticStorm wrote: They do not need plastics and frankly from the companies that did go on plastics, all in my opinion lost their details, like Wyrd.
Any lack of detail in a Wyrd model can be attributed to the guys working with the 3d sculpting (CAD) program, not the mold making technology. Again, Dream Forge clearly shows what can be done with plastic and I think skilled sprue creation will allow the TGG figures to easily keep most of the detail. It will also allow RH to produce a nearly endless supply of these amazing models where pouring resin will be incredibly time consuming given the expected number of orders.
Breotan, you're correct that GW's latest plastics have been better than what they have previously produced; years in the biz have shown that their plastics get better and better with time. That being said, even the awesome sculpts we got (particularly on those cultists!) in Dark Vengeance aren't nearly as wonderful as the work from Raging Heroes. While they might be capable of that level of detail in plastics, I'm going to remain dubious. I know they can produce this level of quality in resin or white metal, and I've already agreed to pay for that.
Within the bounds of the Kickstarter, though, do the people who want plastic so badly expect that this will result in backers getting more minis, or the minis for less money? I've asked before, and I still don't know: What is the perceived advantage, within the Kickstarter, of having the models made in plastic, as opposed to resin/metal?
Dreamforge shows exactly what can be achieved with plastic, but to do so the minis are in a lot of parts (once you add on pouches etc)
now that suits some (ie me) who come from a kit building background, but will put off others,
especially as these detail bits are the hard stuff to get on and looking good if you don't know what you're doing.
GW shows what you can do with state fewer parts (and lots of twiddly bits) eg the new chaos raptors, again very nice but less flexable than the more bitty Dreamforge stuff
PsychoticStorm wrote: GW abilities to cram detail on flat surfaces and their inability to hide undercuts even n quite visible areas would not benefit this project full of curves and organic forms at all, the only way around it would be a "gazillion" parts per models and a ridiculously high price for moulds.
Space Hulk would like to disagree with you. I also think they've shown quite well they can cram all sorts of detail into models with only a few pieces. Dark Vengeance certainly had plenty of detail in their organic (Cultists & Hellbrute) models.
PsychoticStorm wrote: They do not need plastics and frankly from the companies that did go on plastics, all in my opinion lost their details, like Wyrd.
Any lack of detail in a Wyrd model can be attributed to the guys working with the 3d sculpting (CAD) program, not the mold making technology. Again, Dream Forge clearly shows what can be done with plastic and I think skilled sprue creation will allow the TGG figures to easily keep most of the detail. It will also allow RH to produce a nearly endless supply of these amazing models where pouring resin will be incredibly time consuming given the expected number of orders.
Except if my copy of spacehulk is different from everybody else's, no it does not disagree with me, many parts per terminator to avoid undercuts and the undercuts still exist in plain daylight, if only it illustrates the virtues of monoposed multipart models and still remain some of the best sculpts GW has done, moreover terminators are as curved and organic as a washing machine, on the other hand genesteelers in more dynamic poses sometime miss an arm entirely because it would be impossible to have it without extra parts because of undercuts restrictions.
In dark vengence the dreadnought thing is way multiparted to have the form it has and the cultists are flat, like most plastics as if a press stamped them (which literally is what happened and why they are in such pose).
Now imagine the parts breakdown of the, hellbrute it is? compressed to a single 30mm miniature, its a lot.
Oh and I'd agree that a couple more exclusives is much more likely to get money flowing based on other kickstarters I've witnessed and been involved in.
However on saying that, I also agree its still early days. More Updates are good though.
Vermillion wrote: They do their best to ensure the models are indeed true to the concept art and 3d renders, I've not been dissapointed yet with any model I've bought
I do nto mean that thier prints are bad I mean just the opposite. The Level of detail in these models is greater than that foudn int he average Wyrd or Dream Forge models. I am not besmirchign the detail fo those models either but there is a difference. These models are clearly made for resin casting processes and results not for injection molded plastics
Vermillion wrote: They do their best to ensure the models are indeed true to the concept art and 3d renders, I've not been dissapointed yet with any model I've bought
I do nto mean that thier prints are bad I mean just the opposite. The Level of detail in these models is greater than that foudn int he average Wyrd or Dream Forge models. I am not besmirchign the detail fo those models either but there is a difference. These models are clearly made for resin casting processes and results not for injection molded plastics
Yep, Tre has the root of it here. These 3D sculpts have been designed for spin casting in a flexible mold. Plastics would need to be done in such a way that the 3D model could be taken apart digitally and placed in a 2-part plastic injection mold without any undercuts, anywhere. It could mean more sprues to get the desired results, which increases costs, or fewer sprues, which decreases the details that can be achieved from plastic injection.
Interesting that the teased update image is too big to fit within their current format for image posting.... May very well be a bike or one of the mechs we'll be seeing next?
Sure! Here's something to help get to $360,000: the much-anticipated Jailbird Mecha!
The Mecha for the Jailbird Division was created after much input and feedback from the community when we were in the design phase. At that time, most of the comments asked for something in the spirit of the Aliens powerloader and the Matrix and Avatar Mechas. So that's what we went for, because we thought it would greatly fit the style of the Jailbirds.
The idea behind this concept is that the Jailbirds stole heavy duty machinery from a construction site and turned it into a combat machine.
The Mechas for the Iron Empire and for the Kurganova Shock Troops will be more in a 'walker' style with the Raging Heroes' touch.
We've passed $310,000 today and Iron Empire's Major Severina Madsen is now unlocked!
The next 2 Stretch Goals are the Tank Stopper Katerina Zerga from the Kurganova Shock Troops at $330,000 and Mad Nurse Bernadette from the Jailbird Division at $350,000.
And the 2nd Freebie (still a surprise) will be unlocked at the same time, also at $350,000.
What about a new stretch goal, then?
Sure! Here's something to help get to $360,000: the much-anticipated Jailbird Mecha!
The Mecha for the Jailbird Division was created after much input and feedback from the community when we were in the design phase. At that time, most of the comments asked for something in the spirit of the Aliens powerloader and the Matrix and Avatar Mechas. So that's what we went for, because we thought it would greatly fit the style of the Jailbirds.
The idea behind this concept is that the Jailbirds stole heavy duty machinery from a construction site and turned it into a combat machine.
The Mechas for the Iron Empire and for the Kurganova Shock Troops will be more in a 'walker' style with the Raging Heroes' touch.
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I want to help!
That would be brilliant. To help achieve these goals faster, can you help us spread the word? One way to do it is by putting the handsome banner below as your signature in forum posts, in email signatures, on your blog/website, or anywhere else you can think of...
Just grab the image below and link it to the TGG Kickstarter: http://kck.st/18RPJfh
As long as the final model doesn't end up looking like the GK Baby Carriage (although the only real problem with that model is the extreme lack of poseability), I'll be quite happy.
Jimsolo wrote: Within the bounds of the Kickstarter, though, do the people who want plastic so badly expect that this will result in backers getting more minis, or the minis for less money?
Plastic will result in more backers and thus more money to fund the project but the price of the figures themselves will stay the same even though it will be cheaper and far far faster to produce them in bulk.
Also, I fear the very concept of "spin-cast resin". I fear it to the point of running out to one of those meme-generator sites...
With all due respect, right actor, wrong fantasy setting for meme content :p
Regarding plastics, we are just conditioned to associate plastic with better faster cheaper. I'll admit hearing plastics immediately piques my interest, but is it right for this project? Idk. I don't think it would affect our price point, and I think I'd rather put the campaign funds into more upgrades and freebies.
As far as the mecha, I like it. Skittish at the immediate comparison with the infamous GK baby carrier, but as an homage to Aliens, I think it portrays that vision very well in the concept. Hopefully they pull their magic with the sculpt.
Probably worth noting that this new stretch goal has been dropped to $10k, rather than 20 or 30k. And for the large mech, too. It really shows how cynically the existing ones have been gamed after the big splash. - $20k each for 2 infantry models, followed by $10k for a mech. These aren't Reaper or even CMON style freebies for everyone at $100+ either. It's also not at all like Tre's campaign for example, where the stretch goals actually make enough money to cast and produce the next thing.
It's probably too early to speculate in any depth, but it feels like it might be a struggle to open up all of the existing goals. I say this because of what's been observed many times before by several people, including myself - a ton of money in front-loaded pledges where people are still waiting to choose their models from stuff that's not yet unlocked.
Hulksmash also brought up a good point, that I share. $35->30 isn't going to make me pledge additional funds. With the madcap race to grab an early bird, I already went in for the maximum I might be able to afford. There's not really space or enough incentive for me to go higher. I imagine that I'm not alone when I look at how many backers are tied up in the much higher levels.
As for the sculpts vs concept art, I'm sure they said before the campaign that they had almost all of the models 3-D sculpted/rendered already, and planned to have the last ones finished before the end of the campaign?
Does that sound familiar to anyone else? It makes me wonder why we're only seeing concept art and not dual-action, as with the Nurse?
Azazelx wrote: Probably worth noting that this new stretch goal has been dropped to $10k, rather than 20 or 30k. And for the large mech, too. It really shows how cynically the existing ones have been gamed after the big splash. - $20k each for 2 infantry models, followed by $10k for a mech. These aren't Reaper or even CMON style freebies for everyone at $100+ either. It's also not at all like Tre's campaign for example, where the stretch goals actually make enough money to cast and produce the next thing.
It's probably too early to speculate in any depth, but it feels like it might be a struggle to open up all of the existing goals. I say this because of what's been observed many times before by several people, including myself - a ton of money in front-loaded pledges where people are still waiting to choose their models from stuff that's not yet unlocked.
Hulksmash also brought up a good point, that I share. $35->30 isn't going to make me pledge additional funds. With the madcap race to grab an early bird, I already went in for the maximum I might be able to afford. There's not really space or enough incentive for me to go higher. I imagine that I'm not alone when I look at how many backers are tied up in the much higher levels.
First, you expressed ire at the gap between stretch goals, and now that they've gone and reduced the gap, and added something everyone wanted, you're still not pleased? I'm confused.
Azazelx wrote: As for the sculpts vs concept art, I'm sure they said before the campaign that they had almost all of the models 3-D sculpted/rendered already, and planned to have the last ones finished before the end of the campaign?
Does that sound familiar to anyone else? It makes me wonder why we're only seeing concept art and not dual-action, as with the Nurse?
From the Risks and Challenges section:
We made sure that our sculpting planning was realistic. This means that you'll be able to have access to a first wave of production as early as September. And we have set up and used for the past several months a sculpting workflow that allows us to create many miniatures quickly without compromising their quality. This means that 80% of the sculpting process will be done by the end of the Kickstarter.
Alpharius wrote: It is nice, and I think the 'design' fits the background - I'm just not sure that the pilot would survive long in a firefight.
Maybe there's some sort of force field device built in too?
It makes sense to me if I assume it was salvaged / jury-rigged from a "proper" mech. The pedals are a nice touch, so it doesn't look like she's just dangling there.
First, you expressed ire at the gap between stretch goals, and now that they've gone and reduced the gap, and added something everyone wanted, you're still not pleased? I'm confused.
No, not unhappy. I'm pointing out how transparent their gaming/manipulation of the stretch goals has been, and also expressing a concern that since the campaign seems to be massively front-loaded, their manipulation of them based on day 1 might end up with not everything being unlocked by the end. (Since we're not pledging for a game at $x plus a la carte extras, but y number of figures chosen from whatever is unlocked.)
Do you guys think it's more worth it to get one
First Class Box ($40)
- $40 worth of heroines
- TGG Digital Artbook
and add more miniatures of my choice on top of that
or to get
Painter Box ($95)
- $80 worth of heroines
- $15 Kickstarter Exclusive Miniature
- TGG Digital Artbook
and add a ltitle bit more for things that I may want in the end
I ask 'cuz it seems like the Painter box is essentially two First Class Boxes, but with one definite Skycaptain and it seems like the pledge is essentially forcing the Skycaptain onto the pledger.
Was really excited for the mechs but then they showed this Nice figure and all that but at least the GW baby carrier has an armoured pilot! Iron Empire is my faction of choice so we will see what they came up with!
The mech is sort of growing on me. I mean, I don't like the exposed pilot any better, but there is sort of a difference between the Dreadknight - a unit purpose-made and designed from step 1 for extreme close combat that bizarrely has an exposed pilot - and something like this that was expressly not, and just jury-rigged. I think if you paint the damn thing yellow and just go with the full homage it will work pretty well.
On the other hand, if you're gonna add on a rocket launcher and some guns, maybe a few armor plates to protect you from even a thrown rock seems not unreasonable either. I'm conflicted.
Also, I have to say - to go back to something that was said earlier in this thread, some of the complaints do seem a little irrational. Not happy when the stretch goals are far apart, then complaining they're gaming you when they bring them closer together? And what does "gaming" even mean in this context? Trying to make as much money as possible? How is that, like, wrong?
If you're arguing they're not giving sufficient added value for the pledges levels, sure, I could see that and maybe agree with it (though it's still a little early). And, if the complaint is that some stuff might never get unlocked; that's both a totally valid complaint.... but also, like, how every other kickstarter works, right? I mean, Secret Weapon had plenty of tile sets that never got unlocked. Although in that case - you know, as I type this I guess I see what you mean, in that with Secret Weapon there was a clear and unambiguous explanation why they were set as so. Still, I'm not really offended by profit-taking when there are profits to be had.
That's how much money they have to add today to equal half of yesterday.
As I write this, they may have just made it. To Half.
After much thought and inspection of what would appear to be relevant data, one particular unpleasant conclusion seems difficult to avoid: this campaign is in dire need of more value added materials. "Freebies", to use their term.
This is not a plaintive cry for more swag, or a threat to pull a pledge: it is recognition that this campaign is diverging from the established pattern of the very successful campaigns. Now, one is free to say that at $300k+ it is already "very successful", however, as we have been given the road map of how many things remain to be unlocked, it is clear that this campaign requires mega levels of funding (at the current rate, at least $1 million) to unlock everything that they have already planned.
Much has been made of the impressive initial few days: how similar it is to other monster campaigns, how much demand obviously existed, how overwhelming it must have been. All completely true, but what has gone mostly unsaid has been how similar the feeling of being overwhelmed was to other project creators, but how different their response was to the onslaught of cash.
In a previous post I pointed out that when faced with overwhelming demand, Kingdom Death: Monster plowed the money back into the campaign. In fact, if we value them by even just the campaign price, the stretch goals before $300k increased the value of the Survivor level pledge by $131+ (4 sets of Armors at $24 each, plastic Watcher $15, 5 Kings Men $20, and a plastic Phoenix which is not otherwise available to add, thus unpriced). If we assign a reasonable value of $20 to the plastic Phoenix, then the $155 Survivor pledge had had $151 in value added to it by the $300k mark. At $300k, it is to be noted, KD:M added the first paid add-on.
Now, while KD is similar in many respects to Raging Heroes (a microscale company with a reputation for quality and a very limited distribution network), the content of their campaigns are quite different (a board game as opposed to a freestanding miniature range, a single unified project as opposed to several lines in parallel). Is there a better, more similar model for this type of campaign? Indeed there is: Deadzone: The Sci-fi Miniatures Board Game. Despite the name Deadzone is in virtually every respect a skirmish level table top game (also not played on a board...), with multiple factions being developed in parallel, the promise of larger scale miniatures (beyond infantry size, that is) and the distant whispers of hard plastic tooling. It is, in fact, remarkably similar. So what questions can we potentially answer by looking at Deadzone?
Spoiler:
Pledges Per Day Backers Per Day
First, draw your attention to a rather interesting fact: Deadzone actually had more backers opening day then TGG. The lower opening number reflects a well defined pledge level that people gravitated towards (~$136 average that day). Now, notice that by the end of the campaign, the average pledge for a backer of Deadzone was not $136, but $283 (more then double!). Contrast that to TGG, which already has an average backer pledge of $230.
While it is tempting to view that high backer pledge level as a positive for TGG, it may very well be a reflect a dangerous flaw in the structure of the pledge levels. That is, it may very well be an indication that, in general, the backers of TGG have already pledged close to the maximum they will pledge. Further, because TGG structured their pledge levels as dollar values which you then pick miniatures from a pool, it means that as stretch goals unlock, the general backer is unlikely to need to change their pledge level to accommodate new items.
To give an example: at $360k the Jailbird Mecha is available as a support choice. How much must I add to my Commander Box for this item? Nothing. Because the pledge level requires me to take 6 $15 support choices or $90 of support, I can use the money already pledged to pay for it. It's competition thus far are a number of rather corner case field artillery pieces, so until more then 3 $30 support items catch my fancy, my pledge for such things remains as it is.
Another factor that becomes clear when you compare TGG to Deadzone is the degree to which Deadzone funneled the initial cash into making the basic pledge levels better. Through the $300k stretch goals, all goals achieved either added directly to faction starters or to the Strike Team ($150) pledge level. Note that they had these goals do double duty: when the tooling was paid for with a stretch, not only did they add miniatures for free, but they allowed them to be bought in addition (more snipers, for example, beyond what they added to the box).
Let us be clear, the point being made is not how awesome Mantic is and why can't RH throw more stuff at us: it is that Mantic has learned from previous campaigns and, more importantly, learned the psychology of selling, for the betterment of their campaign. To that end, note that it would not be until day ten that Deadzone dropped below $10k pledges/day, while TGG has passed that particular milestone on day four.
Years ago I had the misfortune of being involved in making a training film for a company that sold kitchen refacing. About the products I remember little, what I do remember very clearly is the psychology of getting people to yes.
Deadzone was a fantastic expression of this: their freebie stretch goals meant that the pledge level of Strike Team constantly became a better and better deal, attracting more and more interest from fence sitters and for upgraders. Realize, an enormous number of people have already looked at a campaign before pledging: the person that looked at the Strike Team pledge at launch and found the value lacking could check back, and with each stretch goal achieved see 4 miniatures added, or a KS exclusive miniature or Mercenary figure, until eventually the pledge becomes too good to pass up.
For a great visual representation of this phenomenon, consider this image of the various pledge levels from the recent MYTH campaign (the original boxed game is the grey box in the far top of the image) (Warning, huge image!);
Spoiler:
Take a look at that image and count the value increases, one after another after another (FYI, MYTH final pledge total: $926k). In contrast, having achieved $300k worth of stretch goals, how much value has been added to a Commander pledge? Ash the Tank Gunner, an incomplete miniature designed to be used in an armored tank port... in a campaign that does not include tanks of any sort. Those inclined to point to that "Free Upgrades" at $180k need recall that those upgrades are not direct to the pledges, but to specific miniatures. If those miniatures are not what you intended to pick, the "free upgrades" do nothing for you.
MYTH, Mantic and C'MoN's campaigns and KD:M were, in addition to their ordinary virtues, masterpieces of understanding how to sell. How to grab the potential backer with an initial deal that they looked at and said "whoa, I can't pass that up!", and then reeled them in to eventually build on that pledge (KD:M's eventual average pledge? About $380.).
Jimsolo wrote: Within the bounds of the Kickstarter, though, do the people who want plastic so badly expect that this will result in backers getting more minis, or the minis for less money? I've asked before, and I still don't know: What is the perceived advantage, within the Kickstarter, of having the models made in plastic, as opposed to resin/metal?
Plastic is reliable, cheap and scales well for mass production. I will not pledge for a single Raging Heroes miniature if they don't, because I will not have an army in which to use them. I am not paying Goldsword prices for rank and file.
Jimsolo wrote: Within the bounds of the Kickstarter, though, do the people who want plastic so badly expect that this will result in backers getting more minis, or the minis for less money? I've asked before, and I still don't know: What is the perceived advantage, within the Kickstarter, of having the models made in plastic, as opposed to resin/metal?
Plastic is reliable, cheap and scales well for mass production. I will not pledge for a single Raging Heroes miniature if they don't, because I will not have an army in which to use them. I am not paying Goldsword prices for rank and file.
Not sure I'd put much into plastics with Raging Heroes tbh. Has there been any company with really good results from their first plastic kits? Wyrd is probably close, but there were some definite misses in that initial range too. I think I'm more likely to put $150 into a material I've seen the company work with than $100 in a material they have no experience with if I'm buying models unseen.
One complication to adding freebies is that they didn't include postage at any level. For a lot of these projects, postage is one of the big costs. Once you're actually sending someone a box anyway, though - adding another free figure or whatever doesn't significantly increase your costs (presuming a tiny bit of resin in a mold you were making anyway) but it can increase profits by pushing people to a higher pledge level so they can get said freebie.
Hypothetical example. Sending a box to Australia will cost $9.45 for a single mini. If the mini is selling for $20, and it costs you $2 per mini to make, then your profit is $8.55 (43%).
If you decide everyone who goes to the $30 level gets an extra free mini, then the order is $30. Your postage isn't changing, your costs are $4, and the weight doesn't change significantly - your profit on that order is $16.55 (55%).
By making people pay shipping separately, they complete remove one of the ways they can get people to move to higher pledge tiers without significantly increasing costs to themselves.
I think we're going to find - putting aside all the other things - the post-kickstarter accounting is going to be a huge headache since I strongly suspect a non-trivial percentage of people who have pledged, pledged at the reward level they want... without including shipping. Chasing them after, adding it post-kickstarter via Paypal, people whose pledge cleared on Amazon but Paypal failed, the paypal fees that will get eaten for added shipping, adding on non-kickstarter addons at the same time - this is going to be pretty tough to organize without dedicated and integrated software.
Restic: fuzzy term usually refers to the Mantic, PP, and upcoming Kingdom Death method. This is injection molded resin. Its done in metal moulds and therefore suffers the same detail loss/ undercut issues that injection styrene (hard plastic) kits have.
Sometimes restic is used to describe the offering developed by Torllforged also used by Defiance Games and Impact. This is spin cast resin in rubber moulds. If done right, good detail is possible. If done wrong -disaster.
Resin; yet to see a very good spincast version. Resin usually means painstaking hand casting with vacuum or pressure chamber in rubber moulds. If done well results are very good, many 'boutique' companies use this, eg. pre KS Kingdom Death, McVeys, Vic Minis Penal Squad, Forgeworld.
Plastic: injection moulded styrene done in metal moulds, eg: GW, Dreamforge, new Wyrd.
Hope that helps. Feel free to correct me.
Cheers,
V
decker_cky wrote: I think I'm more likely to put $150 into a material I've seen the company work with...
They haven't worked with it before - they're using spincast plastic ("restic"), not resin.
I thought they had used it for at least one of their recent troop releases?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
vic wrote: Restic: fuzzy term usually refers to the Mantic, PP, and upcoming Kingdom Death method. This is injection molded resin. Its done in metal moulds and therefore suffers the same detail loss/ undercut issues that injection styrene (hard plastic) kits have.
Wrong. It uses rubber molds and therefore can have undercuts exactly like metal models.
Ouze wrote: The mech is sort of growing on me. I mean, I don't like the exposed pilot any better, but there is sort of a difference between the Dreadknight - a unit purpose-made and designed from step 1 for extreme close combat that bizarrely has an exposed pilot - and something like this that was expressly not, and just jury-rigged. I think if you paint the damn thing yellow and just go with the full homage it will work pretty well.
On the other hand, if you're gonna add on a rocket launcher and some guns, maybe a few armor plates to protect you from even a thrown rock seems not unreasonable either. I'm conflicted.
At first I had the same reaction, it left a bad taste in my mouth to see the pilot so exposed - essentially crucified for enemy fire - but it's also grown on me. It helps imagining it more as a fast moving exoskeleton than a clunkier battlemech. Just picture that thing zipping around the battlefield twirling around like some rampant berzerker.
Whilst I appreciate the ideas behind the mecha I'm not overly thrilled by it personally. The pilot is overly exposed to my mind, even if it is looted/scavenged industrial equipment that's been upgraded at least some pilot protection could have been added at the same time as the weaponry. Especially as the weapons look to have been added rather skilfully, rather than just strapped/bolted/welded to the actual arms of the machine.
Guess we'll wait and see what the other two factions have to offer in this slot. But right now, can't see myself picking any of this one up.
decker_cky wrote: I think I'm more likely to put $150 into a material I've seen the company work with...
They haven't worked with it before - they're using spincast plastic ("restic"), not resin.
I thought they had used it for at least one of their recent troop releases?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
vic wrote: Restic: fuzzy term usually refers to the Mantic, PP, and upcoming Kingdom Death method. This is injection molded resin. Its done in metal moulds and therefore suffers the same detail loss/ undercut issues that injection styrene (hard plastic) kits have.
Wrong. It uses rubber molds and therefore can have undercuts exactly like metal models.
Can you provide any reference for this statement? As I have had direct communication with at least one of these manufacturers regarding casting my own products, and the quotes involved tooling for metal moulds. I'd be very interested to hear more.
Cheers,
V
I'm more excited to see Nurse Bernadette than I am for the mech, if I'm honest. I'm not a huge mecha fan to begin with, and like many other people, I don't dig on exposed pilots. That being said, it's really pretty, and looks a million times better than the Dreadknight. At least the 'jerry-rigged' excuse provides a tiny bit of plausibility to the exposed pilot. I probably will not get one, but still.
Curious question, is the conversation taking place here about typical for Kickstarter campaigns? I've never participated in one (either the campaign or any thread about one) and I'm honestly really puzzled by the intensity of the negativity. I expected a lot of speculation about the unrevealed minis, a lot of discussion about what people were going to do with their minis, and a lot of comparisons between peoples' orders. There seems to be quite a few people who are posting comments along the lines of 'the Kickstarter isn't going to do as well as you think, and X is the reason why,' or 'if such-and-such situation doesn't change, I'm going to withdraw my pledge,' or 'they are running the Kickstarter wrong, they should be doing it this way.' I'm not saying that these people aren't entitled to their opinions. (Hell, I even agree with some of them!) I just wasn't expecting the conversation to take this direction. Is it normal? Was I just overly optimistic? Or is this an uncharacteristically negative conversation for its type?
Jimsolo wrote: Within the bounds of the Kickstarter, though, do the people who want plastic so badly expect that this will result in backers getting more minis, or the minis for less money? I've asked before, and I still don't know: What is the perceived advantage, within the Kickstarter, of having the models made in plastic, as opposed to resin/metal?
Plastic is reliable, cheap and scales well for mass production. I will not pledge for a single Raging Heroes miniature if they don't, because I will not have an army in which to use them. I am not paying Goldsword prices for rank and file.
I don't know what Goldsword is. I gather your meaning through context, however, and I'm sorry you feel that way. While plastic does give the advantages you describe, it does NOT convey the level of detail that makes Raging Heroes miniatures superior display pieces. I don't think I would be interested in purchasing any plastic miniatures from them. I certainly understand where you're coming from, though. I wouldn't want to field a fully IG army with nothing but RH troops. I'm going to use them for unique or 'showpiece' units, so I can see how I would be willing to spend more money for better looking minis.
I hope you find some plastic minis that fit your economic needs! All the best.
decker_cky wrote: Not sure I'd put much into plastics with Raging Heroes tbh. Has there been any company with really good results from their first plastic kits?
Dreamforge. Check the decent res sprue pics here. Also from 3d sculpts, not physical. Came out really good. Can't find good shots of the accessory sprues, they have helmetless heads that look really good.
Jimsolo wrote: Within the bounds of the Kickstarter, though, do the people who want plastic so badly expect that this will result in backers getting more minis, or the minis for less money? I've asked before, and I still don't know: What is the perceived advantage, within the Kickstarter, of having the models made in plastic, as opposed to resin/metal?
Plastic is reliable, cheap and scales well for mass production. I will not pledge for a single Raging Heroes miniature if they don't, because I will not have an army in which to use them. I am not paying Goldsword prices for rank and file.
Plastics would be a serious reason to drop mine, they do not fit the project, the scope or the aesthetics.
Plastics is not a panacea and they have a long way to properly complement organic form, if they ever will.
Yeah... I would not have a problem if they created NEW/ADDITIONAL troops made out of plastic.. but please do not try to force these lovely artworks into plastic models... I just don't think it will work.
Curious question, is the conversation taking place here about typical for Kickstarter campaigns? I've never participated in one (either the campaign or any thread about one) and I'm honestly really puzzled by the intensity of the negativity. I expected a lot of speculation about the unrevealed minis, a lot of discussion about what people were going to do with their minis, and a lot of comparisons between peoples' orders. There seems to be quite a few people who are posting comments along the lines of 'the Kickstarter isn't going to do as well as you think, and X is the reason why,' or 'if such-and-such situation doesn't change, I'm going to withdraw my pledge,' or 'they are running the Kickstarter wrong, they should be doing it this way.' I'm not saying that these people aren't entitled to their opinions. (Hell, I even agree with some of them!) I just wasn't expecting the conversation to take this direction. Is it normal? Was I just overly optimistic? Or is this an uncharacteristically negative conversation for its type?
It seems to vary, often at random. You'll also notice a lot of the negative comments are coming from the same handful of people, and restate the same handful of points over and over again, never missing a chance to remind everyone how this latest development proves their pet theory about the nature of Kickstarter / RH's perceived arrogance / whatever right. Again, not that they're not entitled to be negative, but after a certain point, I do wonder why anyone wouldn't just simply abandon a KS they find so unsatisfactory, and move onto something they like more. Opinions have been expressed unambiguously, anyone you feel needs to be "warned" has been, your work here has been done.
Empire Greatswords, the kit that paved the way for the 25-pounds-for-10 price band.
I certainly understand where you're coming from, though. I wouldn't want to field a fully IG army with nothing but RH troops. I'm going to use them for unique or 'showpiece' units, so I can see how I would be willing to spend more money for better looking minis.
I hope you find some plastic minis that fit your economic needs! All the best.
Thank you.
PsychoticStorm wrote: Plastics would be a serious reason to drop mine, they do not fit the project, the scope or the aesthetics.
I'm not suggesting that they should all be plastic. Even one sprue per faction would provide the option for bulk at an affordable price for the likes of the Imperial Guard, where you don't want to pay $3 after discounts for a 5 point model.
Azazelx wrote:Probably worth noting that this new stretch goal has been dropped to $10k, rather than 20 or 30k. And for the large mech, too. It really shows how cynically the existing ones have been gamed after the big splash.
The first 12,000 unlocked about 46 miniatures. So according to your logic, it would be cynical, not to unlock another 46 models per 12,000$ as this must surely be the exact price for designing, sculpting and producing 46 models?
Actually, producing the about 150 intended models has a huge cost (and risk) that is spread a bit arbitrarily among all the stretch goals, so the unlock levels are more marketing of the complete project than actual production cost of an individual model.
Buzzsaw wrote:This is not a plaintive cry for more swag, or a threat to pull a pledge: it is recognition that this campaign is diverging from the established pattern of the very successful campaigns. Now, one is free to say that at $300k+ it is already "very successful", however, as we have been given the road map of how many things remain to be unlocked, it is clear that this campaign requires mega levels of funding (at the current rate, at least $1 million) to unlock everything that they have already planned
So, to be fair, can you post the freebies of all successful projects on day three of the campaign, so that we can actually see, where this one diverges from that pattern? Please only consider those projects that have more than 50 individual sculpts at day three.
Thank you Buzzsaw for taking the time to lay out such a nice, logical, rational, calm and well thought out post.
The very definition of constructive criticism - and much appreciated!
Yep, was the first place I read the post this morning, only just getting back round to Dakka now before heading out for the evening again RH does indeed get a lot of feedback posted to them through various methods (including a good old cut and paste) so be assured, your feedback is looked at
I'm kinda a fan of the whole salvaged and modified equipment style for the Jailbirds, however the whole babycarrier from GW really has me unable to warm to the model yet. Pity as I have a feeling I'll be headed straight for Blondie and the Mad Nurse as heroine choices myself and was thinking of just getting the whole lot as them if I go up from painter funds allowing.
This is how they will get the 5 unique poses per box, and the weapon options. All of the options I needed for my wyches were there, which was helpful. Some of the extra weapons went to converting other figures as well. I don't know what the formulation is, but I never have to wash the resin parts. In fact, you can even paint right onto them without primer!
Since I just spent hours yesterday washing, scraping and priming a ton of FW parts, it was a stark reminder of how much of my life gets wasted cleaning resin
One fault I find with Buzzsaw's analysis, however, is the projects he chose to compare this to: Myth and Deadzone. As I stated in an earlier post, this project is more in line with Dreamforge Games, Bombshell Babes, and Damsels of Darkmyre. With Myth and Deadzone you pledged for a prepackaged deal (as well as being a complete game) that was unchanging, but then options and additions were added to it. That is not what Raging Heroes is doing here, though. They, like Dreamforge, BB, and DoD, are offering up a large selection of miniatures (and not a complete game) that you essentially mix and match to fulfill your pledge level (which was noted in Buzzsaw's analysis and my earlier post as a major reason why stretch goals aren't increasing funding because those unlocked models can simply be chosen as part of the existing pledge). I feel a better analysis would be comparing this project to those other three I named.
I think his point Tannhauser is not the game format, but the KS format.
I love RH. But there is little incentive to add to your pledge. Very little added value for pushing higher and higher.
Dead zone for example I find a great example. The fact that it was an entire game is irrelevant. It was a great deal. And got better and better. To the point that I almost pledged just because the value you got per amount pledged was almost too good to not get, despite having little interest in most minis and the game.
Buzzsaw wrote:This is not a plaintive cry for more swag, or a threat to pull a pledge: it is recognition that this campaign is diverging from the established pattern of the very successful campaigns. Now, one is free to say that at $300k+ it is already "very successful", however, as we have been given the road map of how many things remain to be unlocked, it is clear that this campaign requires mega levels of funding (at the current rate, at least $1 million) to unlock everything that they have already planned
So, to be fair, can you post the freebies of all successful projects on day three of the campaign, so that we can actually see, where this one diverges from that pattern? Please only consider those projects that have more than 50 individual sculpts at day three.
This is an excellent point. Not the one Kroot is proposing, that's insipid, but the talismanic repetition of "X number of sculpts at launch!", as if that virtue is an unalloyed good. It seems very possible that the attempt to launch 3 lines all at once, rather then enhancing the campaign, has been profoundly detrimental.
Put simply, while some game launches like Relic Knights or Deadzone presented multiple different lines of asymmetrically balanced armies, TGG is essentially, well, the same army presented in 3 different aesthetic flavors.
Let us be candid and acknowledge that most people buying these miniatures are not buying them with an eye towards using them for use in the as-yet-unseen rules system RH is developing. Rather, they are being bought for use in other game systems, weather it be Warzone or Warhammer 40k or Deadzone or whatever.
If you are, as I am, interested in mixing Iron Empire units with DFG Eisenkern, well, you don't have a great deal of use for the Jailbird sculpts.
If you want to add some females to your Catachan guards, you're probably very interested in the Jailbirds but not all that interested in IE or Kurgs.
So on and so forth.
No doubt there are some backers that are interested in all three flavors of heavy infantry, or all three versions of the same sniper team.
But the biggest problem is that having a lot of options to choose from doesn't actually increase the value of the pledge. More flexible, to be sure, but if you look at the projects that hit the mega funding levels, how flexible were they?
EDIT: I forgot to add something here: because there are 3 lines that are being looked at as collections of individual sculpts, it dramatically increases the stretch goal interval for people interested primarily in a single faction.
For example: say you are all about the Iron Empire. The last stretch goal that pertained to you was $310k Major Madsen. There is nothing directed to you again until... after the $360k Jailbird mech at the earliest. So $50k+!
You will note that in Deadzone, when one faction got a specialist unit, they all got one, with the exception of the very late in the game uniques.
Curious question, is the conversation taking place here about typical for Kickstarter campaigns? I've never participated in one (either the campaign or any thread about one) and I'm honestly really puzzled by the intensity of the negativity. I expected a lot of speculation about the unrevealed minis, a lot of discussion about what people were going to do with their minis, and a lot of comparisons between peoples' orders. There seems to be quite a few people who are posting comments along the lines of 'the Kickstarter isn't going to do as well as you think, and X is the reason why,' or 'if such-and-such situation doesn't change, I'm going to withdraw my pledge,' or 'they are running the Kickstarter wrong, they should be doing it this way.' I'm not saying that these people aren't entitled to their opinions. (Hell, I even agree with some of them!) I just wasn't expecting the conversation to take this direction. Is it normal? Was I just overly optimistic? Or is this an uncharacteristically negative conversation for its type?
It seems to vary, often at random. You'll also notice a lot of the negative comments are coming from the same handful of people, and restate the same handful of points over and over again, never missing a chance to remind everyone how this latest development proves their pet theory about the nature of Kickstarter / RH's perceived arrogance / whatever right. Again, not that they're not entitled to be negative, but after a certain point, I do wonder why anyone wouldn't just simply abandon a KS they find so unsatisfactory, and move onto something they like more. Opinions have been expressed unambiguously, anyone you feel needs to be "warned" has been, your work here has been done.
Man goes to his doctor, the doctor tells him "you have got to quit smoking." Man says he's fine, he just started and he feels great, he's not going to stop.
A year later the man comes in with a cough, the doctor tells him "you have got to quit smoking", notes the cough, raises an eyebrow and points to the pack of Marlboro's. Man says that it's just a coincidence and the doctor is just a killjoy.
A few years after that the man comes in complaining of pain when he pees. The doctor tells him "you have got to quit smoking", offers him a trial sample of smoking cessation gum and information to local. Man says that the doc is being ridiculous, it's his bladder not his lungs. The doctor explains the studies that show correlation, the man responds with correlation is not causation.
Another few years passes, man comes in, his cough has passed, but now he's consistently short of breath. Doctor says "you have got to quite smoking", and tries to educate the man about electronic cigarettes, other nicotine replacements and the studies that show correlation. The man says the doctor has been on his case for so long and is so negative that he's becoming a bore. The doctor smiles and says he's happy to be a bore and hopes to be a bore for many, many more years to come. And by the way quit smoking.
The doctor goes to the local hospital for M&M and sees the man. As the medical examiner shows slides of the tumors that riddle the man's body the doctor reflects on their relationship.
A different man goes to the doctor, and the doctor tells him "you have got to quit smoking"...
Tannhauser42 wrote: One fault I find with Buzzsaw's analysis, however, is the projects he chose to compare this to: Myth and Deadzone. As I stated in an earlier post, this project is more in line with Dreamforge Games, Bombshell Babes, and Damsels of Darkmyre. With Myth and Deadzone you pledged for a prepackaged deal (as well as being a complete game) that was unchanging, but then options and additions were added to it. That is not what Raging Heroes is doing here, though. They, like Dreamforge, BB, and DoD, are offering up a large selection of miniatures (and not a complete game) that you essentially mix and match to fulfill your pledge level (which was noted in Buzzsaw's analysis and my earlier post as a major reason why stretch goals aren't increasing funding because those unlocked models can simply be chosen as part of the existing pledge). I feel a better analysis would be comparing this project to those other three I named.
That is an excellent point, one which I have discussed at some length in private. I did not bring it up in the above analysis because, simply put, while their pledge modality is far closer, their ultimate funding levels were far below what TGG requires. I compared to mega funding projects and used the term mega literally: TGG needs about a million (mega) dollars to actually get everything on the table.
In that context it is worth pointing out that even the best of the projects you mention is DFG, which topped out at ~$206k.
In all honesty, it seems very likely that mode of pledge packaging may be actually incompatible with building a psychologically irresistible pledge package. TGG needs KD:M, C'MoN or Myth numbers, not Bombshell Babes numbers.
RoninXiC wrote: Yeah... I would not have a problem if they created NEW/ADDITIONAL troops made out of plastic.. but please do not try to force these lovely artworks into plastic models... I just don't think it will work.
I'm not sure that anyone has actually suggested they release current models as plastics. We just want "plastics", as in "some models cast in plastic". Original sculpts or tweaks of existing sculpts released alongside their resin progenitors would be fantastic. No one wants to replace Bernadette entirely with plastic. A new, purpose-sculpted plastic model, however, would open many wallets right up.
I, personally, find plastic much, much more enjoyable to work with than resin or metal, and am sick to death of cleaning restic at this point. In fact, I haven't seen a restic release yet that hasn't had worse results from warping, flash and poorly-placed mold lines than a plastic release. At this point, I think restic would ruin RH's "masterpiece" cheesecake worse than any Wyrd-style plastics.
It would be nice to see some money from this placed into developing plastics for rank and file for later kickstarters like the dark elves or sisters of battle esque troops.
RoninXiC wrote: Yeah... I would not have a problem if they created NEW/ADDITIONAL troops made out of plastic.. but please do not try to force these lovely artworks into plastic models... I just don't think it will work.
I'm not sure that anyone has actually suggested they release current models as plastics. We just want "plastics", as in "some models cast in plastic". Original sculpts or tweaks of existing sculpts released alongside their resin progenitors would be fantastic. No one wants to replace Bernadette entirely with plastic. A new, purpose-sculpted plastic model, however, would open many wallets right up.
I, personally, find plastic much, much more enjoyable to work with than resin or metal, and am sick to death of cleaning restic at this point. In fact, I haven't seen a restic release yet that hasn't had worse results from warping, flash and poorly-placed mold lines than a plastic release. At this point, I think restic would ruin RH's "masterpiece" cheesecake worse than any Wyrd-style plastics.
Now this I could get behind. I think the problem is that some people actually were expecting the existing models to be done in plastic, Bob. Like you, I don't think that would work. But I would be all about some cheaper, slightly less detailed horde troopers done in a cheaper medium.
Buzzsaw wrote: But the biggest problem is that having a lot of options to choose from doesn't actually increase the value of the pledge. More flexible, to be sure, but if you look at the projects that hit the mega funding levels, how flexible were they?
...
TGG needs about a million (mega) dollars to actually get everything on the table.
...
TGG needs KD:M, C'MoN or Myth numbers, not Bombshell Babes numbers.
I for one like their transparent and flexible scheme. The discount is directly visible and i can choose the miniatures i like. But i can see how a different way, e.g. by seemingly increasing the offered value over the course of the kickstarter campaign, might attract more pledged money. I guess those other successful kickstarters did not offer a noticeable discount up front but offered more and more "free" miniatures, often miniatures one had no use for, to up the value. Together with a rigid pledge level system that certainly entices people to up their pledges or add money to get the juicy bits. Since this kickstarter has already begun we are stuck with their scheme.
As to the mega funding levels, i don't think we'll reach them and i am not sure if we need to. The stretch goals could be unlocked way earlier.
Buzzsaw wrote: But the biggest problem is that having a lot of options to choose from doesn't actually increase the value of the pledge. More flexible, to be sure, but if you look at the projects that hit the mega funding levels, how flexible were they?
...
TGG needs about a million (mega) dollars to actually get everything on the table.
...
TGG needs KD:M, C'MoN or Myth numbers, not Bombshell Babes numbers.
I for one like their transparent and flexible scheme. The discount is directly visible and i can choose the miniatures i like. But i can see how a different way, e.g. by seemingly increasing the offered value over the course of the kickstarter campaign, might attract more pledged money. I guess those other successful kickstarters did not offer a noticeable discount up front but offered more and more "free" miniatures, often miniatures one had no use for, to up the value. Together with a rigid pledge level system that certainly entices people to up their pledges or add money to get the juicy bits. Since this kickstarter has already begun we are stuck with their scheme.
As to the mega funding levels, i don't think we'll reach them and i am not sure if we need to. The stretch goals could be unlocked way earlier.
Given what we've been told to date, we will need to meet them or everything will not 'unlock'.
I'd say there's a lack of enthusiasm for this one right now.
As noted, we're in a bit of a vicious cycle - until things unlock, pledges won't go up. If pledges don't go up, things won't get unlocked.
For all we know, RH may have already raised in 4 days more than they've made selling products for 2 or 3 years now - maybe they don't feel the need for much more?
I agree. It's a vicious cycle. There is no reason for me to add to my pledge until I know what I can add. As of now, everything available that I want is already covered in my pledge (and then some).
Also, as has been mentioned, their long dev cycle probably worked against it.
How have we been chomping at the bit for this to start? Have those that wanted this already pledged? Yes wew are stuck with their scheme, but the Freebie mechanic is an easy out to adding value. Surely they have already taken up the slack from the low funding goal vs initial model count ratio. I don't think freebie stretch goals would hurt the bottom line, if it increase the pledge totals.
But further more, I'd like to pose a question.
Has Kick starter become addictive? For miniature releases it seems to have become a much more pre order mechanism than what it is in most other genres.
As opposed to a way to launch a line it seems to often become the main vehicle for release. Who cares about retail when most of the audience buys into the Kick starter? Then since the money gathered is gone into production and customers satisfied, you can't sit back and produce what was started. No market. So the only recourse is another Kick starter. and another.
Are Kick starts like Pringles? Once you pop, you can't stop?
Alpharius wrote: I'd say there's a lack of enthusiasm for this one right now.
Guess it will be as unsuccessful as Buzzsaw's favorite, Kingdom Death: Monster then:
... or Deadzone:
But still better than Myth:
Oh, look, Dreamforge had only 133 backers and 20,000 $ on day 4, no way they will ever make it (actually RH made more in 9 hours than Dreamforge in total)
My main issue is that I'm ready to drop a grand, I'm that interested in all the miniatures, I just don't see why I should put that money down right now.
I mean, for $995 KS nets me $1098 Retail worth of stuff. I'll just not include S&H as I consider it a wash either way. I still have to wait the same amount of time to receive product, so that's a wash as well.
Honestly it would make more sense, financially, to wait until it goes to retail and find a store that sells the stuff for anything more than 9% off. It also eliminates any risk of, well anything associated with a KS.
I'm trying to keep my other KS experiences (KoW, DZ, Myth, Robotech) separated from this one. I get that they aren't alike in several facets. I was a pretty vocal opponent of purchase add-ons as unlocks in Robotech, so this KS is like nails on a chalkboard at every stretch goal. I get what they need and what they are trying to do, but there has got to be more inherent value added somewhere.
I'd throw around some ballpark numbers trying to work from Retail backwards, but there plenty of sources where people can figure out that a manufacturer giving you a 9% discount is still making a massive profit. Considering Wholesale to Retail runs about 43%-47% markup in the miniatures market.
Curious question, is the conversation taking place here about typical for Kickstarter campaigns? I've never participated in one (either the campaign or any thread about one) and I'm honestly really puzzled by the intensity of the negativity. I expected a lot of speculation about the unrevealed minis, a lot of discussion about what people were going to do with their minis, and a lot of comparisons between peoples' orders. There seems to be quite a few people who are posting comments along the lines of 'the Kickstarter isn't going to do as well as you think, and X is the reason why,' or 'if such-and-such situation doesn't change, I'm going to withdraw my pledge,' or 'they are running the Kickstarter wrong, they should be doing it this way.' I'm not saying that these people aren't entitled to their opinions. (Hell, I even agree with some of them!) I just wasn't expecting the conversation to take this direction. Is it normal? Was I just overly optimistic? Or is this an uncharacteristically negative conversation for its type?
It seems to vary, often at random. You'll also notice a lot of the negative comments are coming from the same handful of people, and restate the same handful of points over and over again, never missing a chance to remind everyone how this latest development proves their pet theory about the nature of Kickstarter / RH's perceived arrogance / whatever right. Again, not that they're not entitled to be negative, but after a certain point, I do wonder why anyone wouldn't just simply abandon a KS they find so unsatisfactory, and move onto something they like more. Opinions have been expressed unambiguously, anyone you feel needs to be "warned" has been, your work here has been done.
Man goes to his doctor, the doctor tells him "you have got to quit smoking." Man says he's fine, he just started and he feels great, he's not going to stop.
(blinkblink)
Well, that comparison was certainly random and hyperbolic as all heck.
Alpharius wrote: I'd say there's a lack of enthusiasm for this one right now.
Guess it will be as unsuccessful as Buzzsaw's favorite, Kingdom Death: Monster then:
But still better than Myth:
Oh, look, Dreamforge had 133 backers on day 4, no way they will make it (actually RH made more in 9 hours than Dreamforge in total)
I'll phrase this as gently as I can: you appear to have no idea what you are talking about. You've thrown up several campaign graphs, without any apparent appreciation of how they help or how they damage the point you seem to be making.
I apologize if that seems curt, but as I have now spent hundreds of words attempting to illustrate the thinking that led to my conclusions, you'll forgive me if acontextual images seem less then convincing.
grefven wrote: I agree. It's a vicious cycle. There is no reason for me to add to my pledge until I know what I can add. As of now, everything available that I want is already covered in my pledge (and then some).
Indeed, though I'm sat waiting to see what the other heroines look like once we're close to getting them unlocked before making a final choice. Though at the current pace there is the risk that not everything will be unlocked. Though given it's currently sat at $316,642 and has barely moved today it's hard not to think that something needs to change in order to push us further up through the SGs and get everything unlocked. I mean, if we stay at the just over $8k a day figure (based on the total added yesterday) we're looking at another two days before we even get the next SG revealed and another three and a half days before we reach the mecha at $360k.
The most obvious response to this is that there's usually a lull after the initial rush as things settle down, which is fine and could well be the case. The worry is, though, that RH may not manage to pull in enough new backers once they get some more publicity out there in order to increase the average daily pledge and push us through the full range of SGs. This seems to be the route that they're wanting to go down, rather than the, seemingly, more popular option of increasing the value of pledge levels through unlocks to entice early pledges to pledge more and increase the total that way.
Whatever happens with this KS, I'm sure that it'll be a valuable learning experience for RH to take into the other KS projects that they have planned.
Man goes to his doctor, the doctor tells him "you have got to quit smoking." Man says he's fine, he just started and he feels great, he's not going to stop.
(blinkblink)
Well, that comparison was certainly random and hyperbolic as all heck.
You asked why people that do know better keep trying to help people that don't know better.
Why does anyone try to help people that don't want to be helped? Because they need it.
TalonZahn wrote: I mean, for $995 KS nets me $1098 Retail worth of stuff. I'll just not include S&H as I consider it a wash either way. I still have to wait the same amount of time to receive product, so that's a wash as well.
Honestly it would make more sense, financially, to wait until it goes to retail and find a store that sells the stuff for anything more than 9% off. It also eliminates any risk of, well anything associated with a KS.
I must be missing something, but how did you manage to reduce the 15-40% discount to 9%?
Curious question, is the conversation taking place here about typical for Kickstarter campaigns? I've never participated in one (either the campaign or any thread about one) and I'm honestly really puzzled by the intensity of the negativity. I expected a lot of speculation about the unrevealed minis, a lot of discussion about what people were going to do with their minis, and a lot of comparisons between peoples' orders. There seems to be quite a few people who are posting comments along the lines of 'the Kickstarter isn't going to do as well as you think, and X is the reason why,' or 'if such-and-such situation doesn't change, I'm going to withdraw my pledge,' or 'they are running the Kickstarter wrong, they should be doing it this way.' I'm not saying that these people aren't entitled to their opinions. (Hell, I even agree with some of them!) I just wasn't expecting the conversation to take this direction. Is it normal? Was I just overly optimistic? Or is this an uncharacteristically negative conversation for its type?
It seems to vary, often at random. You'll also notice a lot of the negative comments are coming from the same handful of people, and restate the same handful of points over and over again, never missing a chance to remind everyone how this latest development proves their pet theory about the nature of Kickstarter / RH's perceived arrogance / whatever right. Again, not that they're not entitled to be negative, but after a certain point, I do wonder why anyone wouldn't just simply abandon a KS they find so unsatisfactory, and move onto something they like more. Opinions have been expressed unambiguously, anyone you feel needs to be "warned" has been, your work here has been done.
Man goes to his doctor, the doctor tells him "you have got to quit smoking." Man says he's fine, he just started and he feels great, he's not going to stop.
(blinkblink)
Well, that comparison was certainly random and hyperbolic as all heck.
Buzzsaw wrote: I'll phrase this as gently as I can: you appear to have no idea what you are talking about. You've thrown up several campaign graphs, without any apparent appreciation of how they help or how they damage the point you seem to be making.
I apologize if that seems curt, but as I have now spent hundreds of words attempting to illustrate the thinking that led to my conclusions, you'll forgive me if acontextual images seem less then convincing.
Hint: It is not the number of words that make an argumentation convincing. Nor the number of personal attacks
Minx wrote: I must be missing something, but how did you manage to reduce the 15-40% discount to 9%?
It looks like I did miss one thing, so it's actually 15%-16% off.
Still short of the average 20% off that is the average in Retail for discounts. Then remove S&H as retailers will remove that for most orders over $50-$100.
There's still not numbers there screaming for people to pledge for savings.
Buzzsaw wrote: I'll phrase this as gently as I can: you appear to have no idea what you are talking about. You've thrown up several campaign graphs, without any apparent appreciation of how they help or how they damage the point you seem to be making.
I apologize if that seems curt, but as I have now spent hundreds of words attempting to illustrate the thinking that led to my conclusions, you'll forgive me if acontextual images seem less then convincing.
Hint: It is not the number of words that make an argumentation convincing. Nor the number of personal attacks
Well, that's me convinced! In the light of such arguments as you have mustered my methodology surely must be naught but sound and fury, the argument of a fool and signifying nothing...
While I wait for your argument to transmit itself through the phlogiston or however you plan on actually presenting it, something to ponder;
Minx wrote: I must be missing something, but how did you manage to reduce the 15-40% discount to 9%?
It looks like I did miss one thing, so it's actually 15%-16% off.
Still short of the average 20% off that is the average in Retail for discounts. Then remove S&H as retailers will remove that for most orders over $50-$100.
There's still not numbers there screaming for people to pledge for savings.
This is always an odd one, if you want security and potentially deeper discounts then retail is indeed risk free and can be budgeted to your timetable. However there is also no guarantee that the retail price won't increase before it goes into general circulation. For me I'm pledged just a little over what I am likely to need to spend with most of what I want unlocked. I will wait til it's the last day, reasses based on what's available. im willing to decrease as well as increase my pledge. Having a drop ship site close to me also helps so I can get staged deliveries. At the end of the day it's best to wait, observe and make the right decision for you based on the facts. Wailing like a baby and throwing half page hissy fits like some forum members is neither constructive nor helpful.
Buzzsaw wrote: I'll phrase this as gently as I can: you appear to have no idea what you are talking about. You've thrown up several campaign graphs, without any apparent appreciation of how they help or how they damage the point you seem to be making.
I apologize if that seems curt, but as I have now spent hundreds of words attempting to illustrate the thinking that led to my conclusions, you'll forgive me if acontextual images seem less then convincing.
Hint: It is not the number of words that make an argumentation convincing. Nor the number of personal attacks
You seem to be unable to process opinions that do not walk lock step with your own here - this is...odd.
You effectively set up a legion of straw-men which you then spectacularly demolish.
This chart here?
would seem to indicate that there are problems that need to be addressed.
There's another famous story out there about a different Emperor...
Spoiler:
He really wasn't wearing any clothes.
Bottom line?
Everyone in this thread wants this campaign to succeed, and wants all of the hinted at miniatures to be 'unlocked'.
At the current pace, with the current stretch goals, this seems to be heading into 'less likely' territory.
I'm sure that all involved, including RH, would like for this to happen, and would welcome thoughts on how to best achieve this.
Sculpts of the Troopers for the Kurganova Shock Troops
We know that buying things on concept only can be a delicate proposition. Yes, you already know that we have committed to having sculpts that are very true to the concepts. But we all know that an image is worth a thousand words.
And while we've already shown several Heroines' sculpts, we've read that some of you want to see how the troops concepts translate to sculpts.
So here are 3 sculpts of the Kurganova troopers.
Tweaking the TGG campaign
We know that after an amazing start, the Toughest Girls of the Galaxy (TGG) Kickstarter is now running much more slowly.
The success of our launch by far exceeded our expectations. It would have been easy for us to ride on this amazing wave, try to cash in, and unlock lots and lots of stuff very quickly. But it would not have been honest to you for several reasons.
First of all, we needed to make sure we could make the necessary adjustments with our suppliers to be able to fulfill the pledges in the time frame we committed to if the KS continues on skyrocketing. We are currently finalizing work on this, and we are now reassured that this will not be a problem.
Second, it is obvious that if the TGG Kickstarter ends up going very high, we'll end up with no Stretch Goals to unlock and not enough to offer you. So we are now working very hard to take care of that, and our concept artist is currently drawing day and night non-stop in case of greater things happening.
Third, we also know it's very easy, as a KS project creator, to be carried away by the amazing rush of the Kickstarter, and to fail to anticipate the impact this will have on production costs, packaging, increased sorting and picking, additional staff and training, increase in office and storage space, taxes, currency exchange, and lots more...
Before launching this Kickstarter, we spoke to several other Kickstarted project creators in our field, some with big projects, some with small projects. They ALL advised us to be VERY careful about the costs, because many were burned to a certain extent by underestimated costs after the KS ended, and this applied even to the very large projects.
And so, we are still carefully reviewing the numbers to adapt to what this Kickstarter has become, and to where it might end. Pending those results, we expect to be able to make several adjustments to the campaign that will undoubtedly make you happy.
More info in the next coming hours about all this.
New locations for the TGG Kickstarter Drop Ship Programme
As you may know, we will be giving interested pledgers the opportunity to go directly to a retailer's store to pick up their Raging Heroes Kickstarter items. More details here.
Today, we just updated our Drop Shipper list with 8 new locations. There are now, believe it or not, 15 countries participating!
Interested? Just talk to your local gaming store. If they are interested, they can complete this form and we'll add them to the list!
A beautiful comic book
We've just been contacted by Hoang Nguyen, creator of the Carbon Grey Kickstarter. Carbon Grey is an absolutely gorgeous comic book that happens to share a lot of the with the Toughest Girls of the Galaxy visual references.
As his Kickstarter is now nearing its end, Hoang Nguyen is offering a FREE digital comic of Carbon Grey to the Toughest Girls of the Galaxy backers for just checking out his campaign. And in exchange, he is sending his backers to ours!
And we are also working with him to have him will draw some new characters for the TGG campaign...
UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote: This is always an odd one, if you want security and potentially deeper discounts then retail is indeed risk free and can be budgeted to your timetable. However there is also no guarantee that the retail price won't increase before it goes into general circulation. For me I'm pledged just a little over what I am likely to need to spend with most of what I want unlocked. I will wait til it's the last day, reasses based on what's available. im willing to decrease as well as increase my pledge. Having a drop ship site close to me also helps so I can get staged deliveries. At the end of the day it's best to wait, observe and make the right decision for you based on the facts. Wailing like a baby and throwing half page hissy fits like some forum members is neither constructive nor helpful.
I hope you're not insinuating that I'm one of those throwing a fit.....just sharing my observation at this point. Actually, my other posts in this thread are quite the opposite.
@talon definitely not you, your comments are far too on topic for that. I think watching and waiting is definitely the best approach regardless of pro or con stance.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Alpharius wrote: Everyone in this thread wants this campaign to succeed, and wants all of the hinted at miniatures to be 'unlocked'.
At the current pace, with the current stretch goals, this seems to be heading into 'less likely' territory.
I'm sure that all involved, including RH, would like for this to happen, and would welcome thoughts on how to best achieve this.
Raging heroes have hit their funding goal, the kickstarter has succeeded. To suggest otherwise is disingenuous, anything beyond that goal is simply icing on the cake.
New renders look nice. I still think I'm going to pass on most of the Kurganova stuff in favor of the Jailbirds and Iron Empire, though. I'm waiting to see what the renders for the Heavy Troopers look like for the Iron Empire.
UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote: @talon definitely not you, your comments are far too on topic for that. I think watching and waiting is definitely the best approach regardless of pro or con stance.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Alpharius wrote: Everyone in this thread wants this campaign to succeed, and wants all of the hinted at miniatures to be 'unlocked'.
At the current pace, with the current stretch goals, this seems to be heading into 'less likely' territory.
I'm sure that all involved, including RH, would like for this to happen, and would welcome thoughts on how to best achieve this.
Raging heroes have hit their funding goal, the kickstarter has succeeded. To suggest otherwise is disingenuous, anything beyond that goal is simply icing on the cake.
You might want to take a break from this thread...as I'll thank you to NOT assign attributes to my posts that aren't there.
@alpharius that is what I took from what you posted. Feel free to clarify and please be clear as to when you are posting personal opinion as opposed to instruction from a mod.
Man, I have to tell you. I've been biting my tongue on this for days, but I think something really needs to be said at this point.
You guys are not being fair to Kroothawk.
I have no idea how he became the focal point of this umbrage. He hasn't been in here, like, with the sword and the shield, hammering down opposing opinion. He's expressed his opinions in what I thought was a fairly reasonable manner, and you guys are like, just going bananas on him.
I say this as a reasonably neutral party in this because I like all of you guys more or less evenly. I've always liked you, Alpharius. I went to bat with you when that RSO thing happened. I've always found you to be a evenhanded mod. But I think you should maybe take a step back here a second and look at some of the stuff you're posting. Look at this exchange:
Alpharius wrote: At the risk of sounding like a whiny cry baby Joe Blow on the Interwebz, $20K to unlock a single model that is then a $10 add-on...
Okay, what would you suggest?
I'd suggest you calm down, not put words in other people's mouths and stop exaggerating.
This is literally:
A. Hey, this sucks
B What would you prefer
A. STOP PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH
Pretend it's not your name and Kroothawks name in that exchange. Pretend you saw that exchange with 2 other people. Would you have considered that to be a fair exchange?
And Buzzsaw. Man, your initial breakdowns of issue was smart as hell. I'm in awe of the way built your analysis and I think RH should really, really take pretty much all of your suggestions. I wonder if you could make a few bucks here and there acting as an analysis for crowdfunding projects. But I want to address this:
Man goes to his doctor, the doctor tells him "you have got to quit smoking." Man says he's fine, he just started and he feels great, he's not going to stop.
(blinkblink)
Well, that comparison was certainly random and hyperbolic as all heck.
You asked why people that do know better keep trying to help people that don't know better.
Why does anyone try to help people that don't want to be helped? Because they need it.
I don't think you need to be a paladin for your ideas, for lack ofa better way of putting it. I agree with them, but now that they're out there, they're out there! They'll either address them or not.
And
Buzzsaw wrote: [While I wait for your argument to transmit itself through the phlogiston or however you plan on actually presenting it, something to ponder
Come on. That's just rude by any measure. It is. And it sets the tone for further vitriolic responses by other people. We can't have a reasonable discourse when you guys are saying stuff like this - instead of undermining what he's actually saying, his arguments, you both have been undermining him personally - saying he's irrational etc etc. It's not right.
This is like seeing one of your friend's parents fight, when you like them, and sometimes they make you smore's or rice krispie treats and now you wonder if maybe they're going to get divorced, and then just like with you your dad is going to shack up with that floozy Donna who always smells like hairspray and Marlboros and your mom is always sad all the time and you have to move to a new school and all the kids make fun of you and call you butterpants. Well, maybe that was a bit of a digression, but I wish all of you guys would take a step back, accept that your opinions are all pretty much valid in some way, that you're not really going to convince each other, and just, you know, move on.
I quite like the last update, I am curious on the parts breakdown of the troops though, hope they will answer.
That been said, I am more happy with the unexpected communication, promise of a follow up and an indication of seriously considering suggestions.
Ok I know we have heralds here it is their duty beyond spreading the word and supporting this, communicating back crucial feedback, like it or not agreeing or disagreeing with Buzzsaw one of you or several should communicate his feedback to them with emphasis, he has critical points highlighted.
Alpharius wrote: This chart here?
would seem to indicate that there are problems that need to be addressed.
This chart just shows, that every kickstarter campaign gets most funds and new backers on the first and then the last few days ... and that this kickstarter is no exception. That's how kickstarter campaigns do in real life. Same with ebay auctions. Half the backers will see kickstarters on the "Soon ending" page, before they take action.
Always nice to have more pledges per day, but the current level is absolutely normal for a successful campaign. No need to panic on day 4. And as said, the motorbikes and mechas will certainly boost existing pledges. BTW I, and many other painters, are waiting for more Heroine pledge levels.
We can post all the various Kicktraq charts we want, but they all show the same thing. A big start, a slow middle with steady growth for the project, and a big finish. Until the charts start showing a LOSS of money or backers, then it's pretty much business as usual. Do I think RH could have done some things better? Of course I do, but this is hardly the disaster that some commentaries almost make it out to be. Again, I think a big issue here is that this is not like the usual gaming KS projects we're all used to.
Ok I know we have heralds here it is their duty beyond spreading the word and supporting this, communicating back crucial feedback, like it or not agreeing or disagreeing with Buzzsaw one of you or several should communicate his feedback to them with emphasis, he has critical points highlighted.
I actually really like Buzzsaw and his analysis and have been passing them on to the Raging Herald comm channels as they've been posted, whether RH will read and acknowledge is completely up to them, but the heralds are at least debating a little.
Grabbed some screens from the intro video to show some more of the Kurganova troopers and the Iron Empire standard bearer.
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
And the Iron Empire standard:
Spoiler:
The Iron Empire concept art just continues to impress. Looks like we'll get a mix of active/passive poses for all these models, since the three renders above look more rooted in their poses than two of the running models shown in the latest update.
-iPaint- wrote: Grabbed some screens from the intro video to show some more of the Kurganova troopers and the Iron Empire standard bearer.
The Iron Empire concept art just continues to impress. Looks like we'll get a mix of active/passive poses for all these models, since the three renders above look more rooted in their poses than two of the running models shown in the latest update.
~iPaint
Thanks for your work with the video and i agree, they have some awesome concept art (and miniatures of course).
