Redbeard does not think it is reasonable for backers to expect that they won't be lied to or willfully mislead. Redbeard doesn't even care to find out if backers have been lied to, it isn't worth his time. Redbeard is content with very long delays as long as the end product is good, and he believes the end product will be good. Redbeard wishes this thread were nothing but news, basically another place to read the project updates.
Wehrkind, Ouze, Mathieu, BrookM and others do not think it is reasonable for project creators (no matter how small) to lie to or willfully mislead their backers, and they are not content with delays that at the moment appear to be quickly approaching interminable since Raging Heroes has had a year to work on a project that was 80% done at the get go, and three miniatures to show for it. Wehrkind, Ouze, Mathieu, BrookM and others have been using this thread as a sort of digital pub in which adults (? ) get together and grouse about a particularly delicious problem they share.
i kinda agree with Rebeard.....kickstarters aren't stores with awesome discounts. kickstarters are....well, kickstarters. Technically....according to Kickstarter....the project doesn't even have to deliver once its been funded.
On the other hand....most of this forum isn't insane people screaming, it is what forum usually are...a buncha people bitching about a subject with occasionally useful information peppered in.
As a chaos player I live and die in forums like that
Speaking of which, is everyone using theirs as IG or is anyone using these for anything else. the IE on bike is gonna be a chaos bike lord for me once she gets MOOAR SPIKES. IE troops might get used as chaos troops too.
Yes. Because I'm subscribed to this thread so that I can get useful information and feedback. And every time the New Posts thing comes up in my subscribed threads list, all I see is people whinging about how some expectation they had isn't being met. This is not useful information. It has gotten annoying. ...
You'll note, by the way, that there were some specific questions I had for you in that last post. I remain genuinely curious for the basis of certain statements you have made.
To be honest, the one you linked back to was A) a huge wall of text that I had a hard time discerning a question in (I don't see a single question mark there), and B) contained all sorts of references to "under the law" and "legally speaking", which, as I'm neither a lawyer, nor a lawyer specializing in international trade, I can't speak to. ...
Not to put too fine a point on it, but while it certainly can be annoying to find nothing but kvelling, it's then a bit rich to treat a post that at least attempts to lay out a more substantive issue with TL: DR. Also, "a huge wall of text", really? Really? You do realize my "wall of text" is a direct response to your post... which is exactly the same length (no joke, my post is precisely one(1) word longer according to my word counter).
I'll mea culpa a lack of a "?", although in fairness to myself a) I do include the phrase "I don't mean that as an argument, but an inquiry for data", and b) I didn't anticipate there would be so much skimming needed.
In all seriousness, I get how annoying it can be that there is no real info, but that's not our fault. It's not like there is some conspiracy to only talk about the substantive issue of RH flirting with fraud and/or anticipatory repudiation: the radio silence from RH is... well, from RH.
It's not like people aren't asking the important (some would say, legally significant) questions: it's just that RH refuses to answer the important questions.
Well, to clarify, I'm not too actually upset about the delays personally. I'm sort of displeased that they seem to have clearly lied about how much of the project was done before launch - the only possible conclusion in the absence of an explanation for the 80% comment to where we are now - and am willing to empathize with those who ARE unhappy, but persionally, eh.
I'm like literally the worst person with a right to complain about Kickstarter delays, and there was ample, ample warning from previous Raging Heroes customers in this very thread detailing how it would likely go down - very delayed, but ultimately great miniatures. I was willing to live with that deal so I pledged.
because I've pledged for a bunch of KS projects and most are late, very late (or relic knights),
because Raging Heroes had clearly not been the fastest at even getting the KS up and running underestimating how long it would take by miles (and because their non KS performance had also been pretty slow in the past).
However it was also clear that when the minis did show up they would be very nice indeed (which is what I was interested in)
what the thread celebrates (or berates depending on your point of view) is how stereotypically Gallic and Artistic the way Raging Heroes have gone about the process of designing the minis and even the pledge manager
I am a bit miffed that they didn't squeeze out an update yesterday, they could've gone with the good old clip show variant where they recap a year of bold statements followed by long periods of silence.
Though knowing these guys, they made one, scrapped it, then remade it a dozen times over trying to capture the essence of this campaign.
I take it that the pledge manager still hasn't been updated with the promised images either, aye?
This is the latest I've seen regarding the extra images, this is from around midday yesterday.
Visitor: Second question, any update on the extra trooper images?
Harry the Hippo: Hmm the art team is working on it
Harry the Hippo: To put more renders on the PM Visitor: fair enough
Harry the Hippo: But we do not know exactly when we will be able to do it..
Visitor: hopefully before the PM closes? Harry the Hippo: We hope so Harry the Hippo: We are doing our best because we know it is important for you to see what it looks like in real before making your selection
Gallahad wrote:Basically the argument boils down to this:
Redbeard does not think it is reasonable for backers to expect that they won't be lied to or willfully mislead. Redbeard doesn't even care to find out if backers have been lied to, it isn't worth his time. Redbeard is content with very long delays as long as the end product is good, and he believes the end product will be good. Redbeard wishes this thread were nothing but news, basically another place to read the project updates.
Not exactly. It's reasonable to be upset about this. It's reasonable to post about being upset once or twice. But, come on people, we're going ona year. By now, you should understand how the process works. Do we need several pages of whining with every status update, going on about what was revised from a prior update or rehashing old hurts? They've established a pattern, it's foolish to expect anything different.
Buzzsaw wrote:
Not to put too fine a point on it, but while it certainly can be annoying to find nothing but kvelling, it's then a bit rich to treat a post that at least attempts to lay out a more substantive issue with TL: DR. Also, "a huge wall of text", really? Really? You do realize my "wall of text" is a direct response to your post... which is exactly the same length (no joke, my post is precisely one(1) word longer according to my word counter).
You're taking this very seriously. A word counter?? The internets must be very important.
I'll mea culpa a lack of a "?", although in fairness to myself a) I do include the phrase "I don't mean that as an argument, but an inquiry for data", and b) I didn't anticipate there would be so much skimming needed.
In all seriousness, I get how annoying it can be that there is no real info, but that's not our fault. It's not like there is some conspiracy to only talk about the substantive issue of RH flirting with fraud and/or anticipatory repudiation: the radio silence from RH is... well, from RH.
It's not like people aren't asking the important (some would say, legally significant) questions: it's just that RH refuses to answer the important questions.
Buzzsaw wrote:"Honestly, when all is said and done, the thing that most people will take away from this whole campaign isn't these minor hiccups in their process, it's whether or not they like the minis they receive." I'm curious what your basis for this is.I don't mean that as an argument, but an inquiry for data. Certainly the negative is true: if the minis end up bad, then RH might as well fold up shop as they will have functionally nothing going for them at that point. Alternatively, I can think of campaigns where good communications between backers and creators allowed a company to weather a non-ideal fulfillment.
Similarly I can think of campaigns that delivered good product after developing a tempestuous relationship with their backers, and... well, let's just say these companies wouldn't mind a do-over.
My basis for this is watching how gamers behave over the last thirty years. As a group, we're willing to take an enormous amount of abuse from the companies that produce the things that we love, and forgive (if not forget) as soon as they make the next cool thing. Watch Dakka and all the posts about GWs behaviour. I see the same posters (and even myself) who dislike the direction that they take, who dislike the never-ending price increases, the blatant money-grabs, and lackluster approach to game design, yet when a new edition is released, we all buy it, and as soon as the next cool miniature comes out, we're all buying them. For all the complaints about how GW's current direction seems to be about forcing people to buy the big riptides and wraithknights, we're sure happy to buy those riptides and wraithknights because damn it, they're cool.
But it's not just GW. I've watched how M:tG suffered from lackluster sets circa 1995 (Fallen Empires, Homelands), yet were forgiven. I've seen how TSR was scraping the bottom of the barrel with things like spelljammer, and came back, and how they basically ruined D&D more recently, with 3rd parties using their own system to compete with them, only to pull them back with later releases.
As long as the RH final product is cool, that's all that will matter for the vast majority of their backers. If these models turn out well, I have no doubt that a subsequent kickstarter will also do well. If these models end up sub-par, I would expect a second project by them to fail. I really don't think that these process hiccups will affect their long-term success. I could be proven wrong about that, but I don't think that's what will happen.
Okay, so I went back to try and find these outright lies they told us. I'll admit, I mostly skimmed through the old updates, but this one stood out:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/loudnraging/raging-heroes-the-toughest-girls-of-the-galaxy/posts/530235 wrote:
I think the best way to answer that is to share a conversation we had on Facebook a couple of days ago:
Question: “Dunno if this has been answered - You say you will email people once the KS is over asking for what models they want to spend their pledge on - will we get to see all the models in 3d sculpt/3d print or even in resin/metal cast BEFORE choosing?
I ask because with several of the concepts its hard to visualize the end product.”
Asharah Raging: “Well, production will happen over several months, so it is unlikely that all the models will be available to be shown in 3D or cast before the survey is sent...”
Question: “So we will have to spend our pledge based on the concept sketches for some of the characters/troops/mechs etc? Just asking because I know I, personally, am on the fence about several heroines and the mecha until I see how they look in 3D. After the unveil of the Kurg heavy troops, too, there was a lot of mixed opinion on the transition from concept to sculpt. People will be pretty hacked off if they spend their pledge on a concept then the print is subtly different to the point they don't like it”
Asharah Raging: “I'm not sure what to tell you. Compared to most other companies, our sculpts are very very very close to the concepts. But there will always be subtle changes to make sure that the models are castable and not too fragile. And please remember that we showed the models of the Troops BEFORE THEY WERE FINISHED. We will make sure NEVER to do that again. We did that mainly because of scale issues on which we wanted people's feedback. This means that these renders were shown mostly to help us get a better feel for what the backers were looking for in terms of proportions and scale, and some details were clearly stated to be unfinished. We were VERY clear about that, but nevertheless, many people did not bother to read the comments, drew many mistaken conclusions about these images, and shared them with everyone.
To be able to produce such a large quantity of sculpt at the same time, we have a very specific workflow.
One of its particularities is that we do not develop each sculpt individually and one after the other.
Instead, we work on large sections of the product range all at once.
So, when we write that “80% of the sculpting process is done”, it means precisely that: 80% of the sculpting work that is required to send the minis to 3D printing is done.
It does not mean that 80% of the sculpts are done. One person put it this way: "100% of the minis are 80% ready”, and that's a good way to summarise it.
As we already explained in this update on 'One-Shot Blondie, from concept to 3D print', we revise a sculpt MANY times before we send it to print. This is what ENSURES the quality of the Raging Heroes sculpts.
That update was from before the campaign ended, meaning that anyone who was uncomfortable with either of those aspects of their campaign had plenty of time to decide not to back the project.
If I'm missing something else, let me know. Otherwise, the whole "they lied to us" seems to not only have been addressed, but addressed with time for you to back out. If you stayed in at that point, I'd say that is pretty indicative that you were okay with that update.
By the time this ships out you'll have a place to live, space to put and paint them AND a new gf/child/thing in your life that will keep you from painting them
BrookM wrote: Thing is though, just because it is a KS should not automatically mean that it is okay to be behind on schedule or that we as backers should just deal with it.
See, that's where you're wrong. A chain of apologists keep saying so. If this upsets you, then perhaps kickstarters are not for you. Because it's your fault for being a twitter-weaned instant gratification child who expects people who take your money in exchange for good not to lie to you on a regular basis.
chaos0xomega wrote:Am I the only one who has pledged to *so* many kickstarters as to have become completely unphased by being behind schedule? I've seen other Raging Heroes (non-Kickstarter) miniatures in person before and they were great, I have no reason to believe that they are going to deliver us a crappy product after this. Of course, yknow I'd prefer to have my stuff sooner rather than later, but seriously.
Nope, I've posted the same thing several times. It's just funny to watch everyone obsess over it.
I gotta get me a [Mod] badge so I can troll people without repercussion.
rayphoton wrote: By the time this ships out you'll have a place to live, space to put and paint them AND a new gf/child/thing in your life that will keep you from painting them
Gods I hope not, I'm only moving in two months and I'm allergic to children.
BrookM wrote: Thing is though, just because it is a KS should not automatically mean that it is okay to be behind on schedule or that we as backers should just deal with it.
See, that's where you're wrong. A chain of apologists keep saying so. If this upsets you, then perhaps kickstarters are not for you. Because it's your fault for being a twitter-weaned instant gratification child who expects people who take your money in exchange for good not to lie to you on a regular basis.
I gotta get me a [Mod] badge so I can troll people without repercussion.
Yeah, funny 'bout that.
I guess it's ok though. Because Kickstarter.
Right, it's all a conspiracy. You'll note, I'm not a forum mod, I only have any impact at all in the article system, and it doesn't give me any preferential treatment in the forums. If you think I've violated forum rules, please, feel free to report me or my posts. I don't think I've violated any rules, so it probably won't go anywhere. There's no reason to spread falsehoods about the mod staff though, or imply that I'm only able to post because I'm a mod.
Buzzsaw wrote:
Not to put too fine a point on it, but while it certainly can be annoying to find nothing but kvelling, it's then a bit rich to treat a post that at least attempts to lay out a more substantive issue with TL: DR. Also, "a huge wall of text", really? Really? You do realize my "wall of text" is a direct response to your post... which is exactly the same length (no joke, my post is precisely one(1) word longer according to my word counter).
You're taking this very seriously. A word counter?? The internets must be very important.
Bluntly, you seem to just be trolling now. Even given your amazingly obtuse posts in this thread, I don't for a moment believe you are so inept that the (literally) five clicks needed to use the word count function represents an achievement.
How is this mean to work, by the by? You assert "your post is too long to read,", I reply "it's the same length as your post," and you rejoin with "U mad bro?!". What possible constructive conversation flows from all this?
But perhaps I am mistaken. After all, this post seems an exercise in point-missing;
Redbeard wrote: Okay, so I went back to try and find these outright lies they told us. I'll admit, I mostly skimmed through the old updates, but this one stood out:
Spoiler:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/loudnraging/raging-heroes-the-toughest-girls-of-the-galaxy/posts/530235 wrote:
I think the best way to answer that is to share a conversation we had on Facebook a couple of days ago:
Question: “Dunno if this has been answered - You say you will email people once the KS is over asking for what models they want to spend their pledge on - will we get to see all the models in 3d sculpt/3d print or even in resin/metal cast BEFORE choosing?
I ask because with several of the concepts its hard to visualize the end product.”
Asharah Raging: “Well, production will happen over several months, so it is unlikely that all the models will be available to be shown in 3D or cast before the survey is sent...”
Question: “So we will have to spend our pledge based on the concept sketches for some of the characters/troops/mechs etc? Just asking because I know I, personally, am on the fence about several heroines and the mecha until I see how they look in 3D. After the unveil of the Kurg heavy troops, too, there was a lot of mixed opinion on the transition from concept to sculpt. People will be pretty hacked off if they spend their pledge on a concept then the print is subtly different to the point they don't like it”
Asharah Raging: “I'm not sure what to tell you. Compared to most other companies, our sculpts are very very very close to the concepts. But there will always be subtle changes to make sure that the models are castable and not too fragile. And please remember that we showed the models of the Troops BEFORE THEY WERE FINISHED. We will make sure NEVER to do that again. We did that mainly because of scale issues on which we wanted people's feedback. This means that these renders were shown mostly to help us get a better feel for what the backers were looking for in terms of proportions and scale, and some details were clearly stated to be unfinished. We were VERY clear about that, but nevertheless, many people did not bother to read the comments, drew many mistaken conclusions about these images, and shared them with everyone.
To be able to produce such a large quantity of sculpt at the same time, we have a very specific workflow.
One of its particularities is that we do not develop each sculpt individually and one after the other.
Instead, we work on large sections of the product range all at once.
So, when we write that “80% of the sculpting process is done”, it means precisely that: 80% of the sculpting work that is required to send the minis to 3D printing is done.
It does not mean that 80% of the sculpts are done. One person put it this way: "100% of the minis are 80% ready”, and that's a good way to summarise it.
As we already explained in this update on 'One-Shot Blondie, from concept to 3D print', we revise a sculpt MANY times before we send it to print. This is what ENSURES the quality of the Raging Heroes sculpts.
That update was from before the campaign ended, meaning that anyone who was uncomfortable with either of those aspects of their campaign had plenty of time to decide not to back the project.
If I'm missing something else, let me know. Otherwise, the whole "they lied to us" seems to not only have been addressed, but addressed with time for you to back out. If you stayed in at that point, I'd say that is pretty indicative that you were okay with that update.
I can understand not being aware of every post in a thread, but Red, you seem blissfully unaware of a conversation we had less then two weeks ago on this specific topic (this post is from May 26).
You say "If I'm missing something else, let me know." Okay, start with this post, and bare in mind this distinction: there is a difference between the Survey (which went out 9/24/2013), and the Pledge Manager. The way you edited your re-post of update #57 it is not immediately obvious that you understand the difference (the points addressing the pledge manager and incremental spending were omitted by you).
Bluntly, you seem to just be trolling now. Even given your amazingly obtuse posts in this thread, I don't for a moment believe you are so inept that the (literally) five clicks needed to use the word count function represents an achievement.
I was not aware there was a word count function five clicks away. I've never found it necessary to count words, so I've never gone looking for such a feature. Is that part of dakka, or part of the generic text-entry form (and in what browser, if that's the case)? I had no idea. I still think it's a bit pedantic to go worrying about it, but I honestly wasn't aware it was easily available.
But perhaps I am mistaken. After all, this post seems an exercise in point-missing;
Probably. I'm at work. I'm a software engineer, which means that I get periodic times when I wait for code to compile, and look away at the browser or something. I really don't go back and re-read every old post (is that normal behaviour) when writing a new one. At least half the time, I'm only half paying attention to this anyway, it's probably a bad habit, but oh well, it's what I do.
Uh, okay. So you found one clip of text buried in a comment section and gave it the same level of credibility that an official update would have? There are very nearly 10,000 comments on their comment board, I have no interest in reading most of them even once, and even less in going back and poring over them for information. In my opinion, if it's not in an actual update, it doesn't count. The updates have the relevant info that we need to pay attention to, and the comments have such a high noise-to-signal ratio that they're worthless. I wouldn't trust anything written solely in the comments.
I can understand not being aware of every post in a thread, but Red, you seem blissfully unaware of a conversation we had less then two weeks ago on this specific topic
Yup, it's how I keep my cool A trick I picked up a long time ago is not committing things to long-term memory that aren't worth remembering in the long-term.
You say "If I'm missing something else, let me know." Okay, start with this post, and bare in mind this distinction: there is a difference between the Survey (which went out 9/24/2013), and the Pledge Manager. The way you edited your re-post of update #57 it is not immediately obvious that you understand the difference (the points addressing the pledge manager and incremental spending were omitted by you).
You know, I didn't realize there was a difference between a pledge manager and a survey - again, I really don't pay that close attention. I'm sorry if you wanted a more detailed debate over the fine points of the wording of things, but that's really not my thing. I see, re-reading this (again) that they did say that it was a reasonable request and they'd try to make it possible. Again, I think this comes down to the way kickstarter works. Most kickstarters will say they're going to try things that seem reasonable, but later will realize that the extra time or cost associated with doing them makes such things unfeasible. In fact, the word try or trying is used several times in the quotes on the dakka post you linked to. Trying does not always mean success, nor even that success is possible.
You're looking at these comments and transcripts from a facebook chat as contractually binding agreements. Are you actually a lawyer? I know when I read such things, I see them as the company stating a goal. And, as an engineer, I realize that not all goals are met, and that the design process for anything involves trade-offs. One saying in my industry is that there are three variables, and you can control two of them. These are 'features', 'deadlines' and 'quality'. (As an aside, read 'The Mythical Man Month' for why you can't just throw more money at design projects and expect better or faster results). For this project, the features would be the number of models, something they are locked into by the terms of the kickstarter rewards. That means they have the ability to additionally control either the quality of the product, or the time it will take to get there. They appear, wisely, to have chosen quality - but that means that the schedule has to remain fluid.
I really don't go back and re-read every old post (is that normal behaviour) when writing a new one. At least half the time, I'm only half paying attention to this anyway, it's probably a bad habit, but oh well, it's what I do.
...
Yup, it's how I keep my cool A trick I picked up a long time ago is not committing things to long-term memory that aren't worth remembering in the long-term.
...
You know, I didn't realize there was a difference between a pledge manager and a survey -again, I really don't pay that close attention. I'm sorry if you wanted a more detailed debate over the fine points of the wording of things, but that's really not my thing.
(emphasis mine)
For future reference Redbeard, this is why you get people so angry with you. You don't follow the conversation even when the conversation is comprised of people directly addressing your posts, but continue to comment and criticize people's statements and positions despite this. People attempt to engage with you and you blithely ignore their points and continue to deride them instead of engaging with what they say. At that point you are no longer engaging in conversation but shouting random statements irrelevant to the discussion despite the vaguely relevant shape of the post. This behavior is what one expects from a fairly poorly designed chat bot or rampant partisan who does not wish to discuss ideas but rather put down any who disagree with them simply because they disagree.
I can definitely understand not putting a lot of time into studying the intricacies of a subject, especially one as corner case as a KS for little toy soldier women. However, one must recognize that when some people have put in a lot of time and study in the subject and are discussing the finer points simply popping in and saying "Lol you are all being stupid!" is not going to be well received, nor should it be. Using purposeful ignorance of a topic as an excuse for saying people's positions on a topic are wrong and irrational is not really helping.
I really don't go back and re-read every old post (is that normal behaviour) when writing a new one. At least half the time, I'm only half paying attention to this anyway, it's probably a bad habit, but oh well, it's what I do.
...
Yup, it's how I keep my cool A trick I picked up a long time ago is not committing things to long-term memory that aren't worth remembering in the long-term.
...
You know, I didn't realize there was a difference between a pledge manager and a survey -again, I really don't pay that close attention. I'm sorry if you wanted a more detailed debate over the fine points of the wording of things, but that's really not my thing.
(emphasis mine)
For future reference Redbeard, this is why you get people so angry with you. You don't follow the conversation even when the conversation is comprised of people directly addressing your posts, but continue to comment and criticize people's statements and positions despite this. People attempt to engage with you and you blithely ignore their points and continue to deride them instead of engaging with what they say. At that point you are no longer engaging in conversation but shouting random statements irrelevant to the discussion despite the vaguely relevant shape of the post. This behavior is what one expects from a fairly poorly designed chat bot or rampant partisan who does not wish to discuss ideas but rather put down any who disagree with them simply because they disagree.
I can definitely understand not putting a lot of time into studying the intricacies of a subject, especially one as corner case as a KS for little toy soldier women. However, one must recognize that when some people have put in a lot of time and study in the subject and are discussing the finer points simply popping in and saying "Lol you are all being stupid!" is not going to be well received, nor should it be. Using purposeful ignorance of a topic as an excuse for saying people's positions on a topic are wrong and irrational is not really helping.
Second, I suppose thanks are due to Redbeard: it's rather refreshing to have someone be open about how they aren't paying attention and aren't going to start paying attention. As Wehr says, it's completely understandable not wanting to put in the time to understand things, and I appreciate the heads-up that I shouldn't be wasting my time.
All fair points, lads, but I do think one thing is important to note here:
This is the Raging Heroes discussion thread, so, people who disagree with the prevailing general opinion (which is one of a bit of angst ) should also be welcome to post... granted, as I said, the above points are fair and if someone isn't really following the discussion, that can cause issues.
But the discussion is pretty long at this point, so some of that should be forgiven . Time to agree to disagree and move on, I think?
I only post this because I have noted a few other posters who were more positive no longer participate in the thread, and hearing an opposing view can be helpful at times to have a healthy discussion. Not everyone is going to appreciate the memes and jokes, even if most people (myself included) think they're funny, and they can engage in here too in a more serious way if they wish. Not that anyone said they couldn't, but just saying . There's room for everybody on the Raging Heroes trainwreck!
Regarding missing renders in the Pledge Manager on some Heroines and Support:
The backers' feedback we received has been heavily weighed towards closing the Pledge Manager (PM) pretty much as announced and without delays, even if some renders are missing, so that we can begin shipping the First Wave immediately after that.
As of today, over 1700 backers have already completed their Pledge Manager.
We do understand that some backers may feel more comfortable making their selection with more renders: please be assured that we are doing absolutely everything we can to add more before the close of the Pledge Manager.
With that in mind, we are pushing out the last day of the Pledge Manager to June 17.
This has the added benefit of having the last 2 days of the Pledge Manager on Monday and Tuesday with a fully-staffed Live Chat.
Actual communication, in public rather than live chat.
"Oh snap! We shouldn't end the PM time on a weekend! No one could've thought about this before setting a deadline. I mean... seriously! No one could've known that!"
With such a stretch on the final date, I wonder if they'll be able to keep their promise and ship straight away. Any of us that went for first wave models?
Will be interesting to see how long it will to start pledge fulfilment for wave one pledgers.
Maybe we'll also get a more definite list of the heroines that will be in wave 2 and wave 3. Or were the bazillion remaining heroines all to be crammed into wave 2 as well?
An exchange on FB about the missing sculpts that literally made me laugh out loud:
Asharah Raging - Well, again, it's a Kickstarter. A project. Something that is subject to changes. Many of them. There is a point where some things that we very much wanted to have happen are simply not possible as we thought they would be. At the same time, we have also exceeded our commitments in other areas, such as offering spin-cast resin Heroines, which was not even hinted at during the kickstarter. I know it may be difficult to live with change, but that's what a Kickstarter project is about. For certainties, it is better to wait for products to actually be in the retail shop. There, there are few surprises, either good or bad. Then again, some products would never see the light of day if it weren't for our backers, which is why we are forever bending over backwards trying to accommodate everyone. But that's not always possible.
Paul Ellis - Except the pledge manager is fully under your control? I guess I don't understand what's requiring you to close it before all the models are done.
Asharah Raging - I hear you loud and clear Paul, and I understand where you're coming from. But there are indeed reasons for it. Otherwise, we'd do it in a jiffy.
Paul Ellis - Special secret reasons! Why not just say "Hey, if you close by the 17th, we'll ship wave one models to you. If you want to wait for sculpts, you can, but you'll miss wave 1 shipping." As best I can tell, that would make everyone happy?
Asharah Raging - No, we can't do that.
And now, I must go.
skarsol wrote: An exchange on FB about the missing sculpts that literally made me laugh out loud:
...
Asharah Raging - No, we can't do that.
And now, I must go.
Surely I am not alone in imagining a cape swirl accompanying that?
You are not.
Spoiler:
I was picturing more this:
Automatically Appended Next Post: On a serious note, it is really strange they are not at least getting renders before the pledge manager closes. Even work in progress renders. It is one thing to just have concept art to show during the campaign, but by the time you make people finalize what they want there really should be something that at least could be made into a physical model for them to decide upon. Or at least just admit that they just don't have them done for some reason and apologize.
The only issue I can see with wip renders is their penchant for scrapping stuff and starting again. So, whilst it would be nice (and I'm going to keep asking for them) it's more something to do whilst I wait to be able to manage my pledges. Lack of relevant renders just reduces the likelihood I'll spend even more money.
As for the tight deadline on the PM, maybe they're almost out of cash and need actual numbers for the production runs.
Redbeard wrote: My basis for this is watching how gamers behave over the last thirty years. As a group, we're willing to take an enormous amount of abuse from the companies that produce the things that we love, and forgive (if not forget) as soon as they make the next cool thing. Watch Dakka and all the posts about GWs behaviour. I see the same posters (and even myself) who dislike the direction that they take, who dislike the never-ending price increases, the blatant money-grabs, and lackluster approach to game design, yet when a new edition is released, we all buy it, and as soon as the next cool miniature comes out, we're all buying them. For all the complaints about how GW's current direction seems to be about forcing people to buy the big riptides and wraithknights, we're sure happy to buy those riptides and wraithknights because damn it, they're cool..
I didn't agree with some of the other sentiments you posted in this thread, but oh man is this ever the truth. This community as a whole deserves every imagined slight it complains about because, as a whole, we never financially punish the companies responsible for doing the things we claim upset us so much.
Also, I knew what image Cyporiean was going to post, and it still killed me laughing.
Redbeard wrote: My basis for this is watching how gamers behave over the last thirty years. As a group, we're willing to take an enormous amount of abuse from the companies that produce the things that we love, and forgive (if not forget) as soon as they make the next cool thing. Watch Dakka and all the posts about GWs behaviour. I see the same posters (and even myself) who dislike the direction that they take, who dislike the never-ending price increases, the blatant money-grabs, and lackluster approach to game design, yet when a new edition is released, we all buy it, and as soon as the next cool miniature comes out, we're all buying them. For all the complaints about how GW's current direction seems to be about forcing people to buy the big riptides and wraithknights, we're sure happy to buy those riptides and wraithknights because damn it, they're cool..
I didn't agree with some of the other sentiments you posted in this thread, but oh man is this ever the truth. This community as a whole deserves every imagined slight it complains about because, as a whole, we never financially punish the things we claim upset us so much.
Also, I knew what image Cyporiean was going to post, and it still killed me laughing.
I've done a pretty good job holding up my end of the bargain with GW. They keep raising prices, and I'll keep on not buying their product. Instead, I've been shoveling money into other smaller companies where I know my continued business is appreciated.
I'll also not pledge a single dime for any future RH Kickstarters, no matter how delicious they are.
Yeah, that's why I said as a whole. I don't buy Forgeworld anymore despite loving their sculpts because their QA is just so repeatedly horrid. I won't buy the next Battlefield game because of how badly BF4 was handled.
The problem is that for each of those examples that you and I abstain from, there are like, a bajillion people who shrug and just keep buying. So really, I understand why GWS keeps jacking up prices, and why they released Finecast the way they did - why feed them steak when they'll eat gak?
It's also why Raging Heroes will do another KS, regardless of how this one will end, already there are people doing the good old "shut up and take my money" whenever the next KS is mentioned.
Some folks just don't care, which is fine, just don't tell us that we shouldn't either.
Right, it's all a conspiracy. You'll note, I'm not a forum mod, I only have any impact at all in the article system, and it doesn't give me any preferential treatment in the forums. If you think I've violated forum rules, please, feel free to report me or my posts. I don't think I've violated any rules, so it probably won't go anywhere. There's no reason to spread falsehoods about the mod staff though, or imply that I'm only able to post because I'm a mod.
You're basically trolling at this point, and have been for awhile. I have indeed reported you recently (not today) for trolling but I also believe it's unlikely that any action will be taken against you/that you will be given preferential treatment/soft touch because you're a (tangental, apparently) member of staff and internet-friends with the other mods. It's human nature.
We know that mods can get away with stuff that DCMs can't. And DCMs and long-time posters have a bit more leeway than newer posters and the like. It's simply the way of the internet and forums for the most part, and while I enjoy posting on Dakka, it's not especially different in that sense to other well-run forums I am/have been a member of. I'm not talking about kiddie forums hosted by a clique and their mates, either.
This thread is actually pretty light-hearted for the most part, and only darkens when people like yourself ride in to white-knight Raging Heroes to throw ridiculous hyperbole and tell the rest of us that we're unreasonable/foolish/childish for having concerns and making jokes about RH. You also seem to want to continue making posts while acting aloof and too cool to read or process or remember what people say in direct reply to yourself and your questions. It's not a good look, quite frankly.
I see Wehrkind has written a nice response as well. Kudos.
Regarding missing renders in the Pledge Manager on some Heroines and Support:
The backers' feedback we received has been heavily weighed towards closing the Pledge Manager (PM) pretty much as announced and without delays, even if some renders are missing, so that we can begin shipping the First Wave immediately after that.
As of today, over 1700 backers have already completed their Pledge Manager.
We do understand that some backers may feel more comfortable making their selection with more renders: please be assured that we are doing absolutely everything we can to add more before the close of the Pledge Manager.
With that in mind, we are pushing out the last day of the Pledge Manager to June 17.
This has the added benefit of having the last 2 days of the Pledge Manager on Monday and Tuesday with a fully-staffed Live Chat.
Actual communication, in public rather than live chat.
Just a shame that it's pretty much meaningless communication.
You're basically trolling at this point, and have been for awhile. I have indeed reported you recently (not today) for trolling but I also believe it's unlikely that any action will be taken against you/that you will be given preferential treatment/soft touch because you're a (tangental, apparently) member of staff and internet-friends with the other mods. It's human nature.
I'm glad we have such diligent watchdogs as you to make sure all potential infractions get reported. I'm sure you were a good hall monitor. Of course it came to nothing, I've done nothing wrong, other than use a tool differently than you want me to.
Just because I use a tool differently than you use it doesn't mean I'm trolling, and just because I disagree with the more vocal posters in this thread who feel righteous indignation over how RH has treated them doesn't mean I'm not allowed to express my views on the matter.
I find the idea that a person has to address every "point" directed at them to be a bit ludicrous. Are we keeping score here? Is this a formal debate?
.... white-knight ...
And of course the derogatory terms for anyone who doesn't agree with you come out. Did you report yourself for this too?
. You also seem to want to continue making posts while acting aloof and too cool to read or process or remember what people say in direct reply to yourself and your questions. It's not a good look, quite frankly.
"A good look?" We have 220 pages of this thread. We have posters who disappear for hours (and days, if not weeks) at a time. I don't typically read much over the weekend. I didn't realize there was an obligation to go back over several days posts and make sure I had addressed every possible response that may have been directed at me. That's not how I use a forum. If that upsets you so much that you have to report me, I think the issue is yours, not mine. This isn't super-serious-land, and if I miss a post here or there, is that reason to tar and feather me? I respond to the ones I read, and that interest me. Maybe you're taking this all too seriously.
Even after going out of my way to re-read everything Buzzsaw referred to, I still think you're overreacting. It still seems the that basis for all this anger stems from a one-liner made in a comment - not an actual update, but a comment. And that's the exact sort of misstep you should expect from a Kickstarter. You're all acting like "they lied to me!", when I still don't see that. I see a quick response made once, in a comment, and never formalized in an update, which was the result of a guy without much PR experience getting flustered and bombarded with questions. That approach didn't work out, so they had to back away from it. And then to go after them for not explaining all their reasons for it on facebook? Really?
It doesn't take a lot of thinking to see why they'd want to finalize the pledge manager process. This is a company that has no experience dealing with the logistics and size of this project.
So, that top box looks to be either Snow Ivanka or Natasha. Probably more likely to be Natasha as she is a wave one figure, even though she was the last freebie unlocked...
RoninXiC wrote: Yeah... they've been like this for quite some time. IMHO, using all those hashtags shows how .. unprofessional and immature they actually are.
Actually, the hashtags are to show that they're in sync with the community and know how to use social media, making a bold statement that they no longer need Raging Heralds for future projects.
I take great comfort that all those minis have been sorted into individual plastic bags, ready for packing into boxes for dispatch
no doubt after careful and detailed inspection of each and every one of them
(there was always the risk that RH would decide the mini in question didn't live up to expectation and send them back to be melted down, while the sculptors started again)
Alpharius wrote: But I thought social media is what has made us all so ungrateful, unrealistically demanding and gave us our short attention spans too?
And now, look at what they've become.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: I take great comfort that all those minis have been sorted into individual plastic bags, ready for packing into boxes for dispatch
no doubt after careful and detailed inspection of each and every one of them
(there was always the risk that RH would decide the mini in question didn't live up to expectation and send them back to be melted down, while the sculptors started again)
At this stage I expect NOTHING LESS THAN PERFECTION from Raging Heroes.
Mathieu Raymond wrote: Have they mentionned a system to exchange minis if there happens to be an accidental defect?
There will be no defects.
And now, I must go.
(Joking aside this is a useful question; I would assume you would just contact their CS like any normal issue since they're an operating company who has had to deal with that before, but assuming the "logical" things has proven to be the dangerous path here.)
You're basically trolling at this point, and have been for awhile. I have indeed reported you recently (not today) for trolling but I also believe it's unlikely that any action will be taken against you/that you will be given preferential treatment/soft touch because you're a (tangental, apparently) member of staff and internet-friends with the other mods. It's human nature.
I'm glad we have such diligent watchdogs as you to make sure all potential infractions get reported. I'm sure you were a good hall monitor. Of course it came to nothing, I've done nothing wrong, other than use a tool differently than you want me to.
Just because I use a tool differently than you use it doesn't mean I'm trolling, and just because I disagree with the more vocal posters in this thread who feel righteous indignation over how RH has treated them doesn't mean I'm not allowed to express my views on the matter.
Nice ad hominem there. Well, actually it's pretty pissweak. But the fact of the matter is that I do believe you've done a lot of trolling in this thread, which is very distinct from disagreeing with me or anyone else, and I simply followed the proper procedure. Let's put it this way. You ask people a question, they reply. You then only respond to little or none of their reply, while making disparaging/insulting/etc comments, and accusing people who have put effort into replying to you of writing a "wall of text". So with that in mind, I'll just show you the same level of courtesy and simply skim-reply to selected parts of your wall of text below.
Actually I can't even be bothered doing that. I'll simply follow your own style again and be broadly dismissive of what you have to say instead. I do like the "you're all" that you've used below, though. Because anyone who disagrees with you is one homogeneous mass of disaffection, right? Tar and feather you? Damn, any room up there on the cross, oh great martyr? (see - that's my hyperbolic reply to your hall-monitor jab) You insulted others and people didn't like it. Social skills, much?
I'll finish by pointing out one thing. I'm totally fine with you or anyone else being satisfied with the way RH or anyone else runs their KS. I won't insult or disparage you for that. I haven't seen any of the "whiners" in this thread insult people who are happy/content/ok with the status quo, either.
I do take issue when you don't show others the same basic courtesy.
So anyway, at this point, I'm pretty much done with you.
I find the idea that a person has to address every "point" directed at them to be a bit ludicrous. Are we keeping score here? Is this a formal debate?
.... white-knight ...
And of course the derogatory terms for anyone who doesn't agree with you come out. Did you report yourself for this too?
. You also seem to want to continue making posts while acting aloof and too cool to read or process or remember what people say in direct reply to yourself and your questions. It's not a good look, quite frankly.
"A good look?" We have 220 pages of this thread. We have posters who disappear for hours (and days, if not weeks) at a time. I don't typically read much over the weekend. I didn't realize there was an obligation to go back over several days posts and make sure I had addressed every possible response that may have been directed at me. That's not how I use a forum. If that upsets you so much that you have to report me, I think the issue is yours, not mine. This isn't super-serious-land, and if I miss a post here or there, is that reason to tar and feather me? I respond to the ones I read, and that interest me. Maybe you're taking this all too seriously.
Even after going out of my way to re-read everything Buzzsaw referred to, I still think you're overreacting. It still seems the that basis for all this anger stems from a one-liner made in a comment - not an actual update, but a comment. And that's the exact sort of misstep you should expect from a Kickstarter. You're all acting like "they lied to me!", when I still don't see that. I see a quick response made once, in a comment, and never formalized in an update, which was the result of a guy without much PR experience getting flustered and bombarded with questions. That approach didn't work out, so they had to back away from it. And then to go after them for not explaining all their reasons for it on facebook? Really?
It doesn't take a lot of thinking to see why they'd want to finalize the pledge manager process. This is a company that has no experience dealing with the logistics and size of this project.
I had put in a PM to RH through Kickstarter about this, haven't heard back (shocking!), but can anyone remember a statement about Nephyra? She's one of their flagship models, has a render on the front page of the campaign, is one of the oldest (is it possible she was actually the first?) models they pimped for this campaign, but now she has only concept art.
In all seriousness, the renders shown in the campaign made it look like she was ready to go to the printer, and now there is nothing for her? This is disconcerting.
But they've junked and redone a fair few figures they had done as early renders as (they said) once they'd done a bunch the newer stuff just looked better and they didn't want to go with inferior stuff
so as an early render it may well be Nephyra that was has been junked and is yet to be re-done
(it could also be that all the little spindly arms weren't going to be any good once cast so they've got to do some serious rethinking for technical rather than artistic reasons)
In regard to nepharaya I asked about that numerous times, the last I heard was that they want to redo do it but hadn't got round to it yet (they seemed to imply that it just kept slipping their minds #topsecretworkflow). As that was the mini I pledged on the basis of due to what looked like a finished render I can tell you I will be none too happy if it ends up substantively different.
Ivanka Kruganova
Commander Elektra
One Shot Blondie
Karmina Noxx
Arushka
Snipers
General Ilsa Wolfenstein
Nepharya (Necro Priestess)
Werewolves (Zagrath and Sheera)
To this list:
Ivanka Kruganova
Commander Elektra
One Shot Blondie
Karmina Noxx
Volga Potemkine
Snipers
General Ilsa Wolfenstein
Nepharya (Necro Priestess)
Werewolves (Zagrath and Vankaree)
Not many changes, but I dropped a soul weaver for an Army Standard.
My theory is this gives me my snipers and sniper hero, and with the KST freebies I have quite the command squad with Elektra, Volga, Natasha and Karoline, all backed up by two of the Wereshewolves lead by Svetlana. Not a bad little squad all told.
So that leads into the waffling. I'm considering dropping Ivanka for another heroine model, there's some other cool minis in the KST range, and ones I think will be cool could turn out completely differently. I'm also considering those two squads of troops.
Okay this is it, the final list and I'm closing out the pledge manager.
Commander Elektra
Ludmilla (KST Strategist)
One Shot Blondie
Karmina Noxx
Volga Potemkine
Snipers
General Ilsa Wolfenstein
Werewolves (Zagrath and Vankaree)
10 girl KST Heavy squad
and I decided to go with ship on completion just to keep it simple. Wave shipping was almost double cost for me.
So for just shy of $200 I will receive:
13x troops (counting snipers)
2x monstrous creatures
6x named heroines
Then adding in the freebies
11x heroines (counting Drusilla, why the feth is she in a different category?)
4x mascots
I had added all of the freebies (thanks for making us do this rather than making it automatic) when the pledge manager opened but not submitted my order. When I logged in today my cart was empty, so be sure to triple check before you submit anything.
Yeah, it seems that the cookie they're using for the cart goes away when you close/restart your browser. Which is kind of understandable, but also annoying if you want to come back later and actually finalise things.
Yeah, they warned us (or at least me, at any rate) in the email that included my invite to the pledge manager.
I think that the reason we have to add all the freebies manually is that a number of people have pledges too small to include the freebies, and they were looking for a 'one size fits all' pledge manager.
I had added all of the freebies (thanks for making us do this rather than making it automatic) when the pledge manager opened but not submitted my order. When I logged in today my cart was empty, so be sure to triple check before you submit anything.
Doing this pledge manager thing has reminded me of one awful awful fact. I pledged tooooo much money to this.
And I don't mind the delays or the weird company or the lack of renders....I'm chill about thew whole thing.
But Christ when you choose everything you want and then realize you still have like...300 dollars to go......I must have been delirious or on coke something
Jimsolo wrote: Yeah, they warned us (or at least me, at any rate) in the email that included my invite to the pledge manager.
I think that the reason we have to add all the freebies manually is that a number of people have pledges too small to include the freebies, and they were looking for a 'one size fits all' pledge manager.
It actually explicitly says in their "how it works" page that your cart should remain as long as you don't manually clear your cookies. Combined with the "no freebies for you unless you make sure to add them yourself" policy I thought the warning was extra important. As the store is already deciding what goes onto your freebies page based on the pledge it would have been utterly trivial to add them into your cart.
Well, just finalised my order (and somehow spent an extra $90) . Kinda decided that as much as I wanted to see as many final renders as possible, I'm not sure my choices would change too much (and there's nothing really to say that the renders wont).
Still don't think it was the smoothest PM.
Still don't see why there had to be the strict deadline.
But, it's done now. And I'm quite excited again, as I usually get when I spend time looking closely at the minis (or concept art/renders/whatever) rather than searching for funny animated gifs.
Oh well....
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, slightly off topic again, and in memory of the great man......
If you have the option between a cash out now or wait then I would cash out now. Let them waste money on masters and moulds for something they might only shift half a dozen of.
So, we're now on the 10th of June and we still don't seem to have any extra renders in the pledge manager. Certainly not any that I've seen anyway.
We've also not had any update regarding the details of the pledge manager, despite this being one of the stated objectives prior to launching it.
On a personal note, I'm also still waiting for home drop ship waiver documents that the original instructions said needed to be signed and with RH before the 1st of June in order to even be considered for that option.
One thing that is slightly interesting though, is that live chat doesn't seem to be being manned at present, something that I've usually only seen before noon (UK) time until now.
You'd think they could have maintained the system through a planned window to replace concept art by new renders as they became available. An update every few days saying "x new renders."
Was waiting to bite the bullet on this one in the vague hope of renders but the very good point about a rush of orders in the last couple of days probably crashing their system means I'll probably be doing it tonight, I doubt we'd ever have gotten any more anyway lets face it, I just hope Nepharya comes out well.
On the subject of the live chat, just managed to grab Harry for a few words regarding further renders.
Key points:
Visitor: Hi. Just a quick one, are you any closer to getting more images into the pledge manager?
Harry the Hippo: Hard to say
Harry the Hippo: But there will be some before the 17
Visitor: any idea which ones we're likely to see?
Harry the Hippo: We unfortunately can't make announcement yet regarding which renders will be put on the Pledge Manager
As suggested, I used the instant chat feature to contact them. They handled the issue swiftly, politely, and professionally and I've got my order straightened out in just a few minutes.
Not sure how I missed Blondie, she was one of the best models/
Ouze wrote: As suggested, I used the instant chat feature to contact them. They handled the issue swiftly, politely, and professionally and I've got my order straightened out in just a few minutes.
Not sure how I missed Blondie, she was one of the best models/
She was the model that got me in on this in the first place.
Fortunately, as I understand it Drusilla Lepic should be the only KS exclusive mini, assuming nothing changes.
Your positivity is a black mark on my soul....your filthy delicious optimism only makes me hope that I'll have precious tiny metal ladies sooner than later and that I will then promptly ignore in favor of other equally worthless tiny people merchandise, such as Wrath of Kings, Relic Knights, Cthulhu Wars, Shadows of Brimstone, Dreadball 2 and the SDE expansions......oh..oh god...I need help!!! .
If they have, conservatively, 1500 people who opted for Wave shipping (though dropship or other means) and FLGS to send stock to, I can't see Wave 1 being complete by August, and then France shuts down.
Oh shut it! It's not a jibe, almost all of them do go on vacation. It's just a cultural fact, I'm not being mean by calling an egg an egg.
Do you remember the updates from August last year? That's right, you can't, because there were none.
So I don't believe they can have Wave 2 ready to fly by September 2014.
Of course wave 2 won't be September. They'll get wave one done, go on holiday and come back with all sorts of new ideas on how to improve the remaining sculpts and a stack of redone concepts.
Well, Harry advised earlier that they were still working on renders and had felt it best to get as many done as possible and upload them in bulk. Though there was no advance on a time frame for that to actually happen.
I seriously thought that the "I'll never get my models until 2016" comments were being facetious. Do people actually think it's going to take that long to get all the minis shipped?
I would like to say "2016 is Internet hyperbole" but it's hard to gauge where RH is on the process for everything else. If they have most of the logistics stuff worked out and this big initial delay was just a result of that, then I don't think it's unreasonable to have everything in the first half of 2015.
If they have a similar amount of time between waves that they have here then yes, 2016 is the likely time to finish up. However, if they take that long I think the phrase "grossly incompetent project management" isn't a particularly unfair description.
However, since RH *is* a professional business, despite all their antics on this KS, I think mid-2015 if the likely "all done" timeframe, but I have about as much to base that on as the people planning on having to will their pledge to their grandchildren.
Time will tell, but pessimism is usually the prudent course of action when dealing with KS delivery timeframes.
Wehrkind wrote: Ok, I am probably just being too old, but isn't that a few too many hashtags? And if not, how does anyone use Twitter ever for anything?
No, you are correct. It's the Twitter equivalent to begging "Please, please pay attention to me!" Just using "#toughestgirlsofthegalaxy" and "#miniatures" would have been far more mature.
Also, if you post your own piece of art and tag it "#badass", you suck.
Some nice 3D print pictures, finally. Also, seems like they're aiming for November at the earliest for Wave 3 shipping, based on what they said for Wave 2.
Didn't read anything else in the update though, since I've already done my pledge manager.
Update #89: The Pledge Manager: It's happening! Live on the air!
Act I - Opening
So yes, it is happening right now. Just in case you missed your personal email invite: The Pledge Manager is live!
The Pledge Manager is what allows you to tell us which minis you want.
Since we launched it, we've had great feedback, which is pretty cool because we worked hard to make it as comprehensive as possible for you. Of course nothing's perfect, but many backers have told us that they quite like it, and we've been able to quickly improve or fix any encountered issues.
There's a very complete FAQ (in English, French and Spanish) that should answer most of your questions.
Please keep in mind that the Pledge Manager will close on June 17th (more on this below).
Photo Shoot of 3D-printed Masters
Act II - A day at the zoo - Have a chat with the TGG mascots!
Visit the Pledge Manager and meet Harry, Jinx and Charlie!
As some of you have already experienced, there's a Live Chat feature in the Pledge Manager. You get fast and efficient answers delivered by our 3 rockstars mascots. And we love this chance to have a direct contact with you, our backers and all get to know each other a little bit more.
Here's a sample of comments you've sent our way over the past few days:
“Harry the Hippo was very helpful. I forgot to add Drusilla and Harry hopped right on it, burping all the way to get her added to my order! So far I can say they have fast quick friendly customer service! And before that I had to ask what shipping to the the US was and Harry chipped right in so I knew how much I could spend. IE Army is going to be rocking!”
“Have to say the webstore style pledge manager and live customer support is the best I've experienced from a KS. Really smooth and easy to use. Very professional ”
“You guys are amazing. Quick response on the live chat, and problem solved. Keep up the fantastic work!”
“The attitude of RH shows their great professionalism. I'm very satisfied with their customer service, the communication and the problem solving during the postcampaign period has always been positive and fast. Now I just have to wait until these beauties (and Aleksandr) finally arrive to my hands!!”
Guess what's piling up in our stockroom?
Act III – Participation
Over 2/3rds of you have already made your TGG miniatures selection with the Pledge Manager. And quite many of you could not resist going beyond their original pledge and adding a few more!
We're as excited as you probably are to finally see all of this happening and getting close to delivery. If you haven't completed your selection yet, please don't forget to do so within the next few days, since we're closing on June 17th. Spread the word with other backers, and please, if you know personally other TGG backers, drop them a line.
Act IV – Latest Drop Ship Locations
Here are the latest Drop Ship Locations who have officially confirmed their participation.
See the complete list here.
Belgium
Hobby One: 7 place Saint Séverin, 4500 Huy - Tel: 085 611 333 (added May 8, 2014)
France
Rocambole: 36, rue de la clef, 59000 Lille - Tel: 03 20 55 67 01 (added June 11, 2014)
Italy
Goblin Settimo: Via Nicolò Macchiavelli 1/b, 10036 Settimo Torinese (added May 29, 2014)
Goblin Torino: Via Barbaroux 13/D, 10122 Torino - Tel: 011/56.04.135 (added May 29, 2014)
Goblin Bologna: Via Cesare Battisti 3A, 40123 Bologna (added May 29, 2014)
Spain
Goblintrader Zaragoza: Calle Jose Pascasio Escoriaza 11, 50010 Zaragoza - Tel: 976 07 85 70 (added May 13, 2014)
e-Minis Málaga: Calle Alagón esquina con Calle Alberchen, 3 Málaga, Málaga 29006 - Tel: 952 34 83 79 (added May 16, 2014)
Goblintader Rivas: Calle Cuenca 4 (Entrada por C/ Pamplona), 28523 Rivas-Vaciamadrid - Tel: 912 01 95 96 (added May 13, 2014)
Goblintrader Aranjuez: Calle Florida 66, 28300 Aranjuez - Tel: 911 81 46 00 (added May 13, 2014)
Goblintrader Madrid: Calle Enrique Fuentes 22, 28026 Madrid - Tel: 910 81 08 70 (added May 13, 2014)
e-Minis La Línea: Calle Sol 51, La Línea, Cádiz 11300 - Tel: 956 76 63 40 (added May 16, 2014)
Kafrelot Wargames Aljovi, S.L.: Calle Font de Bé 14, San Joan Despí, 08970 Barcelona - Tel: 600 79 18 83 (added May 13, 2014)
Goblintrader Barcelona: Calle Girona 25, 08010 Barcelona - Tel: 934 12 73 99 (added May 13, 2014)
United Kingdom
Warboar Wargaming: 224 High Street, Bromley BR1 1PQ - Tel: 020 3659 3738 (added May 8, 2014)
Pegasus Hobbies & Games: 9-13 Thomas Square, Monmouth NP25 5ES - Tel: 016 00 71 6191 (added May 8, 2014)
United States
Showcase Comics: Granite Run Mall, 1067 W. Baltimore Pike, Media, PA 19063 - Tel: 610 891 9229 (added May 16, 2014)
Act V - The Pledge Manager closes...
June 17.
This is the deadline to order your minis in the Pledge Manager.
We do understand that some backers may feel more comfortable making their selection with more renders: please be assured that we are doing absolutely everything we can to add more before the close of the Pledge Manager.
With that in mind, we pushed out the last day of the Pledge Manager to June 17. This has the added benefit of having the last 2 days of the Pledge Manager on Monday and Tuesday with a fully-staffed Live Chat.
Please note that this date is firm and will not be moved again. We are strongly committed to show you as many new renders and sculpts as possible before we close, but we can't promise anything specific, since we're also really busy with finishing the entire production of the TGG on one hand, and preparing all the logistics on the other hand, in order to be ready to ship the girls to you all over the globe. But you can expect a new Update with new images before June 17.
Once again we want to thank you for your amazing support and your trust. We sincerely hope you will be delighted when you'll get your miniatures
Adding finishing details on a sculpt
Act VI – ... until Shipping Begins!
We will begin sorting and shipping Rewards beginning June 18! Those shipments will include yours, if
your Reward Selection only includes First Wave items and nothing else, or
if you chose 'Drop Ship Waves', or
f you chose 'Personal Wave Shipping – 3 Waves'. (Some Personal Wave Shipping – 2 Waves will also be shipped, depending on what's in your selection.)
Of course, many have been wondering when the 2nd and 3rd Wave will ship.
Here's the plan. I do wish to remind you, however, that this a plan and, as such, it is not cast in stone:
The 2nd Wave is planned for late summer.
The 3rd Wave is planned to end about two months after that.
We will do everything in our power to speed things up.
Please know that as soon as your 'order' is complete, the plan is to ship it.
We don't intend to wait until all the minis from the 2nd Wave, or all the minis from the 3rd Wave, have arrived, if we don't have to. Since the minis are slotted to arrive to our offices in a steady flown in the same manner, we plan to ship on a fairly continuous basis.
Act VII – 3D Printing
Finally, here are some recent 3D printed masters that have been sent to the foundry:
Automatically Appended Next Post: Basically, it boils down to..
1. We worked hard on the pledge manager and got a lot of feedback, we're only going to focus on the stuff we like to hear.
2. Here is some feedback we liked.
3. Over two-thirds have made their choice and have even been suckered into handing over more money, yay!
4. More dropship locations, actually a good thing!
5. Oh right, this amazing pledge manager we just officially announced? It closes in five days. Oh BTW, we are totes going to add in those renders, because those two extra days we've given ourselves are so going to make that difference!
6. WE WILL BEGIN SORTING AND SHIPPING REWARDS ON THE 18TH OF JUNE. We're also making vague promises for the other two waves. =3
Only one thing I realized. Why would Zerga waste time with that pistol, when she's got that huge fething thing harnessed to her belt? Worried about overkill? really?
Automatically Appended Next Post: As an aside, nothing on the troops, though.
We will begin sorting and shipping Rewards beginning June 18! Those shipments will include yours, if
•your Reward Selection only includes First Wave items and nothing else, or
•if you chose 'Drop Ship Waves', or
•f you chose 'Personal Wave Shipping – 3 Waves'. (Some Personal Wave Shipping – 2 Waves will also be shipped, depending on what's in your selection.)
from what was written in the pledge manager it appeared that if you picked 2 waves you'd get your wave 1 stuff 'immediately',
and then whatever was left once it had all arrived (so probably wave 3)
We will begin sorting and shipping Rewards beginning June 18! Those shipments will include yours, if
•your Reward Selection only includes First Wave items and nothing else, or
•if you chose 'Drop Ship Waves', or
•f you chose 'Personal Wave Shipping – 3 Waves'. (Some Personal Wave Shipping – 2 Waves will also be shipped, depending on what's in your selection.)
from what was written in the pledge manager it appeared that if you picked 2 waves you'd get your wave 1 stuff 'immediately',
and then whatever was left once it had all arrived (so probably wave 3)
annoying
Wouldn't be the first time they've contradicted themselves...
Only one thing I realized. Why would Zerga waste time with that pistol, when she's got that huge fething thing harnessed to her belt? Worried about overkill? really?
She's executing one of her troops for being too wimpy to carry a feth hueg cannon.
Oddly I am also driving distance from Showcase, but I'll be moving in the next month, so drop shipping still won't help me.
You read it correctly. They seem to think so. But as thought experiments go, I wouldn't hold my breath on that one coming to fruition.
Actually, I think Wave 3 would be considered Q4.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I find this tidbit weird:
Please note that this date is firm and will not be moved again. We are strongly committed to show you as many new renders and sculpts as possible before we close, but we can't promise anything specific, since we're also really busy with finishing the entire production of the TGG on one hand, and preparing all the logistics on the other hand, in order to be ready to ship the girls to you all over the globe. But you can expect a new Update with new images before June 17.
How can you be finishing the production of the range if you don't have a render to hoist onto your webst...edge manager?
Because such artistes as these do not work with mere physical materials, they hold the concept with startling clarity in their minds eye and over a period of many, many months they will it into being with pure force of mind.
So, 19 days to announce that the pledge manager was live via a Kickstarter update? Doesn't bode well for the extra renders that they keep promising or the accompanying update.
I'm not surprised that so many have finalised their pledges, there'll be quite a few people who just want to get it over with / want things that are already at the render stage / don't care about RH's onoing antics. What is surprising is that there's still almost a thousand people who haven't locked in their rewards yet.
prankster wrote: So, 19 days to announce that the pledge manager was live via a Kickstarter update? Doesn't bode well for the extra renders that they keep promising or the accompanying update.
I'm not surprised that so many have finalised their pledges, there'll be quite a few people who just want to get it over with / want things that are already at the render stage / don't care about RH's onoing antics. What is surprising is that there's still almost a thousand people who haven't locked in their rewards yet.
That's because they needed those self-indulgent praise quotes on their amazing live support to put into the update
I'm one of those 1000 that still haven't finalised. I guess I will have to do it over the weekend, doubt that Mon/Tue will see much in terms of new renders... Which is funny, as after the latest updates I am seriously considering that last IE girl, that with alternate parts makes a kickin' Commissar. Makes you wonder how many great alternate parts there are that we will never see.
I hope you like disappointment, because it's going to be another serving of that topped off with a sprinkling of broken dreams and a snooty chef telling you to shut up and accept it as is.
So the only non-render I really tossed in my cart is Ludmilla... hoping that goes okay. If I can get a source in the U.S. on this stuff I may actually end up picking up some IE heroines at retail, but for now I think I'll just wait. I am glad the wereshewolf renders came out prior to the Pledge Manager closing... based on certain preferences in clothing style I changed the ones I was picking original based on concept art, and I STILL might decide to sculpt up something resembling the tattered remnants of a pre-transformation undershirt in the name of preserving the shewolf's human modesty and avoiding getting called a furry at my LGS.
The only model I bailed on was the Tech Priestess. That model is a lock to be a massive pain in the ass to assemble and if it doesn't look just so it's not worth the effort.
Guys,I have paid for the shipping during the KS but now I am not sure if it's in included in the store credit or not? That is should I add less minis so that the credit can also cover shipping if I got for drop locations?
Cruz, Heavy Gunner
Mimi the Radio
Aleksandr Kurganov*
Shashenka
Ivanka Kurganova
Dr. Von X
Lady Sigrith*
Arthemisia Rosenkrantz
Vera Krabbenhoft
The Lulus
Jailbird Command Group x4
KST Command Group x5
KST Artillery 3 x2
Jailbird Artillery 3
Jailbird Snipers
One Shot Blondie x2*
Yoko x2
Jailbirds Motorbike 2*
Tania Tanker
*Not for me, but for one or more amigos.
$408, including shipping. Not a terrible day's work.
Just finished up my pledge. I ended up with $0.10 in credit remaining. I won't bother posting my list or saying how much it was. Suffice to say, it was more than enough to run a full IG army. I have faith I'll get it all eventually, and I already have ludicrous amounts of stuff to keep my hobby time filled until then.
I did kinda wonder why they didn't just use the Skykadia pledge manager, spruce up the images/design a bit to make it look more like their preferred aesthetic, and go with that.
Well, I'm not sure it's so much a case of pride as a desire to control everything. Though, in this case, it's sort of worked. Whilst it's not the smoothest online shop out there it does the job. Most of the issues are down to their implementation and the extra shipping options offered.
As for more renders, there's a reason why we've not seen any more since the pledge manager went live, they've not finished any. Spoke with Jinx last night, who was more forthcoming than Harry.
You : Evening. Any advance on more renders?
Jinx : we are working on it Jinx : it's nearly midnight here and we are still working
Jinx : we'll be at it all weekend
You : how do I know you're not a cunning chat bot? :p
Jinx : ahahah of course I am, I've been programmed by the evil minds of the Iron Empire!
You : So, Monday for the renders then?
Jinx : I hope so ! One of our lead sculptors's sister is just about to give birth. If it happens this weekend, we might need to push it back a little. In that case, we'll also push the closing date of the PM by one or two more days.
Jinx : bt everyting is well on the way
You : Given the time sensitive nature of the renders, would it not be an idea to put up what you've finished so far? Then add any more in a day or two
Jinx : it may be one option. But as much as it seems hard to believe, the finalisation process / rendering of the sculpts is such that most of the time, all renders ends up ready at the same time, give or take a few hours.
You : So, none of them are actually done and ready to post right now?
Jinx : ahah, I see what you are up to ! don't forget that I have alien super powers!
Jinx : No in fact, none are ready now, everything is in the pipeline and in the finalisation process. But don't worry, everything will be fine You : Well, if it was just a case of ending up going on the concepts I'd not be so worried. However, there's been a few sculpts that I've preferred based on the extra parts, which we hadn't seen before. Similarly, there's the extras in the troop boxes that we didn't see concepts for so renders would be nice.
Jinx : The extras in the troop boxes will definitely be shown before the PM closes.
Jinx : That is, the extra weapons.
Jinx : For the rest, as I said, we're doing all we can.
You : Well, there's not much else we can do as backers but wait then.
You : And now, I must go.
Gee Brook, that last one drips so delicously of sarcasm...
....wait
.... now I picked up enough.
Will fill it into a flacon and sell it as "Eau d'TGG - a delicious passion"
Tannhauser42 wrote: Just finished up my pledge. I ended up with $0.10 in credit remaining. I won't bother posting my list or saying how much it was. Suffice to say, it was more than enough to run a full IG army.
It's only now, as this project winds down, that I begin to wonder what the feth I am going to do with all these minis.
That's what was said, unless the sculptor's sister drops the sprog. Though I'm not sure why that would have much of an impact, unless there's a whole Lannister thing going on behind the scenes.
Tannhauser42 wrote: Just finished up my pledge. I ended up with $0.10 in credit remaining. I won't bother posting my list or saying how much it was. Suffice to say, it was more than enough to run a full IG army.
It's only now, as this project winds down, that I begin to wonder what the feth I am going to do with all these minis.
Don't worry about that, you'll never get them, remember...
Your constant nagging and complaining on the Comments thread is very tiresome. Same thing on the Live Chat.
There is nothing that I can say that will meet your needs. The questions in your latest message have been answered extensively throughout the many updates that we have posted, including the latest one.
I am sorry that you do not have any hope with us.
I am sorry that you do not believe anything we say.
I am sorry that you are so disappointed in this project.
The very large majority of backers are very happy with what we are doing. I realize that we cannot please everyone and obviously, there is nothing we can do to please you.
We will nevertheless continue to soldier on without your wholehearted support, and we will be happy to send you your rewards selection when it becomes available.
Best regards,
Mireille
Raging Heroes Team
Finally. This is what I wrote them
Dear Loud'n Raging,
I'll make this a short one.
5 days until you close the PM.
You promised us several times that we will get more renders. Well, you promised us to not be forced to decide on artwork... but I guess what you said is not really set in stone.
5 days left. 0 pictures added.
It's getting to the point that I have lost all hope for your company to ever again recceive money from me. Your constant breaking of promises is stunningly bad. Your lack of communication and almost zero interest in answering questions is nothing but a great way to shun away costumers.
I do not have any hopes to recceive my miniatures before the end of 2015. I honestly do not. You might be able to send out Wave 1 "soon", but wave 2 and 3? Almost nothing has been shown and it's been almost a full year since you claimed (you did that!) all of your miniatures are 80% ready.
80%. That is what you said.
I don't want to hear any excuses. Be plain and simple. If you fell behind in your shedule, tell us. Don't run around and ignore our questions.
Mathieu Raymond wrote: I think you overestimated the weight customers carry in their minds. Backers are just a smidge underneath, since we already gave our money.
The kernel of "can't please everyone, and thus anyone" is a great water cooler truism that you don't actually tell customers
You don't think there comes a point with a customer where you just have to be like, "Look, you obviously just want to be pissed. That's fine, just do it somewhere else."
I mean, I'm all for supportive, helpful customer service. But there's got to be a limit, eventually.
Alpharius wrote: I forget - did they actually say that the Pledge Manager would absolutely have all renders at a minimum, and no choices would be locked in until then?
The most important pull quote is "Just want you to know that your choices will NOT be locked-in. You will make your final choices once the sculpts are finalised. As mentioned earlier, we never want our pledgers and future customers unhappy with our minis. "
Beyond the single quote which they are now venturing perilously close to being in explicit violation of, there is something else, something that links in with what Mathieu points out: it's very clear that RH hasn't the slightest regard for feedback that isn't "wow that's great!"
Remember when I pointed out that some of the Heavy troopers had silly huge shoulder pads, and the answer was that a) they had forcefield generators in the shoulders and b) that they acted like American football players, shouldering people aside like linebackers. Good times, good times.
Note also that their constant refrain has been "Compared to most other companies, our sculpts are very very very close to the concepts." Which at the same time is partnered with "most of the time, they actually often find the actual casts BETTER than what they had anticipated from the final 3D renders!"
So you see, sculpts will follow renders, except when they are made better!*
*If you don't think it's better, well... screw you buddy.
Alpharius wrote: I forget - did they actually say that the Pledge Manager would absolutely have all renders at a minimum, and no choices would be locked in until then?
Yep. That got said. I wish it had gotten done, but I don't know what I could do about it now. (Other than pull my pledge, maybe? But it hardly seems like a big enough deal to be a deal-breaker at this point.)
Well, I think that message was a little more customer focused than the one I received. (will post it up later) though there's a number of things that you just don't say to a customer.
As for the part about not being locked in until we'd seen renders for all, it's something to strive for but not something I'm expecting at this stage. I mean, they forgot about a shipping method that they offered during the campaign until they were reminded. That was offered in an actual update as well, which is likely why the comms guy was collating them.
Tannhauser42 wrote: Just finished up my pledge. I ended up with $0.10 in credit remaining. I won't bother posting my list or saying how much it was. Suffice to say, it was more than enough to run a full IG army.
It's only now, as this project winds down, that I begin to wonder what the feth I am going to do with all these minis.
Don't worry about that, you'll never get them, remember...
I don't think anyone said they wouldn't get their minis at any point, just arguments about the timeline.
Tannhauser42 wrote: Just finished up my pledge. I ended up with $0.10 in credit remaining. I won't bother posting my list or saying how much it was. Suffice to say, it was more than enough to run a full IG army.
It's only now, as this project winds down, that I begin to wonder what the feth I am going to do with all these minis.
I'm glad there are other that have similar problems (and by problems I mean the first world problems) that I also have. What AM I going to do with all these miniatures. I don't even have the new ig codex.
Mathieu Raymond wrote: I think you overestimated the weight customers carry in their minds. Backers are just a smidge underneath, since we already gave our money.
The kernel of "can't please everyone, and thus anyone" is a great water cooler truism that you don't actually tell customers
You don't think there comes a point with a customer where you just have to be like, "Look, you obviously just want to be pissed. That's fine, just do it somewhere else."
I mean, I'm all for supportive, helpful customer service. But there's got to be a limit, eventually.
There is a point for that. We've forgotten what customer service means in the West and the kind of ass kissing expected these days just isn't what customer service should be. There's a point where I as a store owner do not want to serve you and your time wasting horse gak. In the more corporate work I do right now, we absolutely can and do tell customers to remove their craniums from their anal cavities, sure do it in a calm collected manner, but there's only so many times you can deal with a doom and gloom type who's been moaning on for months about problems that have been resolved or are being resolved and blaming his personal woes on us before it starts effecting business, both by affecting you, and by how that customer is affecting those around him.
Obviously this is a slightly different situation, when it's your fault and the customer's upset hey, don't screw up.
Mathieu Raymond wrote: I think you overestimated the weight customers carry in their minds. Backers are just a smidge underneath, since we already gave our money.
The kernel of "can't please everyone, and thus anyone" is a great water cooler truism that you don't actually tell customers
You don't think there comes a point with a customer where you just have to be like, "Look, you obviously just want to be pissed. That's fine, just do it somewhere else."
I mean, I'm all for supportive, helpful customer service. But there's got to be a limit, eventually.
There is a point for that. We've forgotten what customer service means in the West and the kind of ass kissing expected these days just isn't what customer service should be. There's a point where I as a store owner do not want to serve you and your time wasting horse gak. In the more corporate work I do right now, we absolutely can and do tell customers to remove their craniums from their anal cavities, sure do it in a calm collected manner, but there's only so many times you can deal with a doom and gloom type who's been moaning on for months about problems that have been resolved or are being resolved and blaming his personal woes on us before it starts effecting business, both by affecting you, and by how that customer is affecting those around him.
Obviously this is a slightly different situation, when it's your fault and the customer's upset hey, don't screw up.
I agree with Jim Solo as well, except when you have obviously screwed up, it is your cross to bear, until the current problem is resolved. And do so while smiling. If you did not want customers, then go into accounting or factory work. Mistakes happen from time to time, at my store, and when they are on our end, I will eat my customer's gak all day long while I try to fix it. Once the frame is delivered and agreed upon that it is perfect, then we move on. If some random person comes in and gives me attitute or insists that I do something that will 1)damage their art or is 2)physically impossible, I *politely* refuse the job. If he or she is not even purchasing and just ranting, then yeah, I tell to "get off my land." But when I own my mistake, damn straight I'll fix it and listen to them complain about it. I screwed up. But it'll grate on my nerves all day long. If they had come out and done their mea culpa, mea maxima culpa, we might have been able to move on, too.
BrookM wrote:I don't think we'll be seeing their next KS this year.
I think that would be smart, but I think that is why they plan on delivering everything this year. They want to launch just prior to the Xmas season.
Mathieu Raymond wrote: I think you overestimated the weight customers carry in their minds. Backers are just a smidge underneath, since we already gave our money.
The kernel of "can't please everyone, and thus anyone" is a great water cooler truism that you don't actually tell customers
You don't think there comes a point with a customer where you just have to be like, "Look, you obviously just want to be pissed. That's fine, just do it somewhere else."
I mean, I'm all for supportive, helpful customer service. But there's got to be a limit, eventually.
There is a point for that. We've forgotten what customer service means in the West and the kind of ass kissing expected these days just isn't what customer service should be. There's a point where I as a store owner do not want to serve you and your time wasting horse gak. In the more corporate work I do right now, we absolutely can and do tell customers to remove their craniums from their anal cavities, sure do it in a calm collected manner, but there's only so many times you can deal with a doom and gloom type who's been moaning on for months about problems that have been resolved or are being resolved and blaming his personal woes on us before it starts effecting business, both by affecting you, and by how that customer is affecting those around him.
Obviously this is a slightly different situation, when it's your fault and the customer's upset hey, don't screw up.
I agree with Jim Solo as well, except when you have obviously screwed up, it is your cross to bear, until the current problem is resolved. And do so while smiling. If you did not want customers, then go into accounting or factory work. Mistakes happen from time to time, at my store, and when they are on our end, I will eat my customer's gak all day long while I try to fix it. Once the frame is delivered and agreed upon that it is perfect, then we move on. If some random person comes in and gives me attitude or insists that I do something that will 1)damage their art or is 2)physically impossible, I *politely* refuse the job. If he or she is not even purchasing and just ranting, then yeah, I tell to "get off my land." But when I own my mistake, damn straight I'll fix it and listen to them complain about it. I screwed up. But it'll grate on my nerves all day long. If they had come out and done their mea culpa, mea maxima culpa, we might have been able to move on, too.
Very much so, and please don't take my post as implying otherwise.
Mathieu Raymond wrote: I think you overestimated the weight customers carry in their minds. Backers are just a smidge underneath, since we already gave our money.
The kernel of "can't please everyone, and thus anyone" is a great water cooler truism that you don't actually tell customers
You don't think there comes a point with a customer where you just have to be like, "Look, you obviously just want to be pissed. That's fine, just do it somewhere else."
I mean, I'm all for supportive, helpful customer service. But there's got to be a limit, eventually.
There is a point for that. We've forgotten what customer service means in the West and the kind of ass kissing expected these days just isn't what customer service should be. There's a point where I as a store owner do not want to serve you and your time wasting horse gak. In the more corporate work I do right now, we absolutely can and do tell customers to remove their craniums from their anal cavities, sure do it in a calm collected manner, but there's only so many times you can deal with a doom and gloom type who's been moaning on for months about problems that have been resolved or are being resolved and blaming his personal woes on us before it starts effecting business, both by affecting you, and by how that customer is affecting those around him.
Obviously this is a slightly different situation, when it's your fault and the customer's upset hey, don't screw up.
I agree with Jim Solo as well, except when you have obviously screwed up, it is your cross to bear, until the current problem is resolved. And do so while smiling. If you did not want customers, then go into accounting or factory work. Mistakes happen from time to time, at my store, and when they are on our end, I will eat my customer's gak all day long while I try to fix it. Once the frame is delivered and agreed upon that it is perfect, then we move on. If some random person comes in and gives me attitute or insists that I do something that will 1)damage their art or is 2)physically impossible, I *politely* refuse the job. If he or she is not even purchasing and just ranting, then yeah, I tell to "get off my land." But when I own my mistake, damn straight I'll fix it and listen to them complain about it. I screwed up. But it'll grate on my nerves all day long. If they had come out and done their mea culpa, mea maxima culpa, we might have been able to move on, too.
I think you've hit on the real crux of the problem: no matter how clear the promise, no matter how obvious their failing, RH never wants to acknowledge the obvious.
Oh, to be sure, there are loads of non-apology apologies: "Of course nothing's perfect, but many backers have told us that they quite like it..." (Update #89). Or,
"From the outside, it might seem like we could do things differently – more communications, faster deliveries, etc. I can only say that the team is already working above and beyond the call of duty, and even if we're all frustrated when things don't go faster or not enough info trickles out, we are bound by the physical reality and the real-life constraints of the project." (Update #85) Or,
"We're sincerely sorry that we have to keep you waiting more than originally expected. Your trust and your support are of utmost importance in a project such as this one, and we hope that we are doing the right thing by you by refusing to compromise on the quality of the sculpts. It's pretty hard and heavy with consequences for a small company like ours to decide to rework a whole segment of the production like we are doing. But based on your comments, we are on the same page about this." (Update #84)
One can keep going, but the pattern is generally the same: they're just so very sorry that you want them to violate physical reality/their standards/what everyone else wants. Alas, that such artistes should be troubled with louts such as their backers...
Mathieu Raymond wrote: I think you overestimated the weight customers carry in their minds. Backers are just a smidge underneath, since we already gave our money.
The kernel of "can't please everyone, and thus anyone" is a great water cooler truism that you don't actually tell customers
You don't think there comes a point with a customer where you just have to be like, "Look, you obviously just want to be pissed. That's fine, just do it somewhere else."
I mean, I'm all for supportive, helpful customer service. But there's got to be a limit, eventually.
There is a point for that. We've forgotten what customer service means in the West and the kind of ass kissing expected these days just isn't what customer service should be. There's a point where I as a store owner do not want to serve you and your time wasting horse gak. In the more corporate work I do right now, we absolutely can and do tell customers to remove their craniums from their anal cavities, sure do it in a calm collected manner, but there's only so many times you can deal with a doom and gloom type who's been moaning on for months about problems that have been resolved or are being resolved and blaming his personal woes on us before it starts effecting business, both by affecting you, and by how that customer is affecting those around him.
Obviously this is a slightly different situation, when it's your fault and the customer's upset hey, don't screw up.
I agree with Jim Solo as well, except when you have obviously screwed up, it is your cross to bear, until the current problem is resolved. And do so while smiling. If you did not want customers, then go into accounting or factory work. Mistakes happen from time to time, at my store, and when they are on our end, I will eat my customer's gak all day long while I try to fix it. Once the frame is delivered and agreed upon that it is perfect, then we move on. If some random person comes in and gives me attitute or insists that I do something that will 1)damage their art or is 2)physically impossible, I *politely* refuse the job. If he or she is not even purchasing and just ranting, then yeah, I tell to "get off my land." But when I own my mistake, damn straight I'll fix it and listen to them complain about it. I screwed up. But it'll grate on my nerves all day long. If they had come out and done their mea culpa, mea maxima culpa, we might have been able to move on, too.
I think you've hit on the real crux of the problem: no matter how clear the promise, no matter how obvious their failing, RH never wants to acknowledge the obvious.
Oh, to be sure, there are loads of non-apology apologies: "Of course nothing's perfect, but many backers have told us that they quite like it..." (Update #89). Or,
"From the outside, it might seem like we could do things differently – more communications, faster deliveries, etc. I can only say that the team is already working above and beyond the call of duty, and even if we're all frustrated when things don't go faster or not enough info trickles out, we are bound by the physical reality and the real-life constraints of the project." (Update #85) Or,
"We're sincerely sorry that we have to keep you waiting more than originally expected. Your trust and your support are of utmost importance in a project such as this one, and we hope that we are doing the right thing by you by refusing to compromise on the quality of the sculpts. It's pretty hard and heavy with consequences for a small company like ours to decide to rework a whole segment of the production like we are doing. But based on your comments, we are on the same page about this." (Update #84)
One can keep going, but the pattern is generally the same: they're just so very sorry that you want them to violate physical reality/their standards/what everyone else wants. Alas, that such artistes should be troubled with louts such as their backers...
Agreed. She also didn't follow the normal customer service protocol of answering the questions again, even if it is just a cut and paste of the company position stated earlier. Few people get as irritated by having to repeat themselves as much as I do, but that is a huge part of customer service: directly answering the question every time it is asked, over and over, till it percolates through people's skulls. Their habit of dodging questions or giving vague oblique answers is part of the reason people are getting so annoyed with them, but they completely miss that.
Honestly I think anyone that doesn't want to make a decision based on artwork is just being too particular. If it were a no-name company I would agree, but everything we have seen thus far from Raging Heroes has been of pretty amazing quality, and very closely fitting the concept artwork. If you don't want to grab something without a high quality render, then don't buy it, nobody is forcing you to, and there are enough models that have already been rendered that you can get your moneys worth through them.
Except for when they've made the final sculpt 'better' than the concept art, or where they've decided that they don't like it and gone back to the concept.
Lets not forget the weapons in the troop & command boxes that we didn't even see concept art for.
Well, that was painful as my browser objected to me constantly opening multiple tabs to stop that pop-up. Gradually grinding slower and slower as I worked my way through...
But that's my choices made - figured if I didn't do it now they would close tomorrow and something would happen to stop me getting online - and was quite pleased that I managed to avoid adding huge amounts to my pledge (I really don''t need every bike and mecha after all ).
So now back to the waiting game....except this time at least it's waiting for product rather than waiting for the chance to see what it might be possible to get.......
And obviously there'll be all the regrets that come upon seeing the final sculpts posted.........
I don't think I'll regret the actual pledge, I have faith that the models will be very nice when they eventually get here, but I may regret not getting that one instead of this one.....
ACHTUNG! ATTENTION! THIS JUST IN FROM THE KS COMMENTS SECTION OF ALL fething PLACES:
This just in: Pledge Manager NOW CLOSING ON JUNE 19.
We said we would do another Update with more images before the close of the Pledge Manager.
Well, we are almost done, but not completely :(
The machines are running 'round the clock to get the renders out, but nature conspired against us as well: our Sculpt Supervisor became an uncle for the first time this week-end, and so we had to do without him over the week-end...
So, we are slightly pushing out the publication of the next Update and the close of the Pledge Manager as well.
Stay tuned for new images soon!
As an uncle, allow me to be cynical: his presence contributed nothing to the experience of said little bundle of joy. He won't for at least 4 months... which happens to coincide with the supposed Wave 2 shipping.
But he is a sensitive, artistic uncle whose mere presence brings an overwhelming je nais sais pas to every occassion, almost certainly affecting the young one's life in ways the twitter-weaned could not possibly comprehend.....
Dude, I don't know if you did that on purpose, but it is the most roflmao moment I have had in the last year. That is the biggest punch ever delivered to RH.
But "je ne sais quoi" carries an ephemeral, intangible quality that makes things desirable and builds excitement. It's not just an expression that conveys ignorance or confusion, but is actually a good thing.
Je ne sais pas, however, is really down to earth and does not have any other meaning. What monkeytroll did was use the intangible (secret workflow, perfect minis, redoing everything, moving goalposts) that RH have used to have people frothing at the mouth, and given us a look from the other side of the screen of them as simpletons pushing buttons, with a little bit of drool at the corner of their mouths.
Jeez, the above sounds very clunky, but the imagery is instant and... powerful. A Voltaire moment from our british friend.
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Creator Loud'n Raging about 4 hours ago
@David Wilkewitz: Mechas are definitely Wave 3 :(
@Atreides: Yes indeed! We have planned to begin shipping on June 18. However, shipping to Drop Ship locations can only begin once the Pledge Manager closes and we can combine the shipments :(
#David Wilkewitz: Wave 2 is specifically dedicated to the Troops, so at this point in time, I'm afraid there won't be any extra Support thrown in, only several Heroines :(
However, we will do everything we can to cast Wave 3 as efficiently as possible.
So Wave 2 being everything else but the uber-goals has now become Troops and several heroines.
I'm not even asking them which heroine, because I think they don't know themselves yet.
When they mean extra support... what do they mean? Will there be an incomplete suite of artillery boxes in Wave 2? What about the bikes, where do those fall? Wouldn't it have been smarter to work on getting those mecha to market before the uber-goals of the werewolves? Again, I don't think they know yet the content of Wave 2 except in very general terms. I sure hope everything else I asked for was in Wave 2.
And they are forging ahead with their plan to start shipping on the 18th? Before the pledge manager's second deadline extension comes to pass? So in retrospect, why not send me my Wave 1 stuff as soon as my pledge manager was complete, on May 25th?
It feels like at this point they're grasping at anything to delay the inevitable by just a few more moments.
It will be interesting to see if they can deliver on those promised renders at long last. But why the flying feth with stinking witches wait until the last fething moment to show these off? Why the witching feth are they rendering them now of all times and not weeks or months ago? Has wave one been so fething intense a production that it swept aside all other waves? If so, fething gaking hell, it will be a miracle if they could deliver wave 2 on time, which is significantly larger.
Just when I stupidly assumed they couldn't blow my mind any more, they somehow manage to do just that.
Well, not entirely unexpected. As for their reasons, we can only guess. Though maybe the delay is due to them trying to crank out ~50 renders at once on only a couple of machines rather than doing them over a longer period. I mean, they seemed surprised when I suggested uploading them in smaller batches, but I guess the super secret workflow doesn't cover that.
Mathieu Raymond wrote: As an uncle, allow me to be cynical: his presence contributed nothing to the experience of said little bundle of joy. He won't for at least 4 months... which happens to coincide with the supposed Wave 2 shipping.
To be entirely honest as an uncle that missed the birth of his (first) nephew because of work, I would stop everything and go see the newborn.
The most important pull quote is "Just want you to know that your choices will NOT be locked-in. You will make your final choices once the sculpts are finalised. As mentioned earlier, we never want our pledgers and future customers unhappy with our minis. "
Redbeard wrote: If you think an offhand comment holds the same weight as an actual update, then I guess so.
That's clearly far more than an offhand or casual comment, but I guess if you don't personally want to put any weight to anything a KS creator says outside of "official updates", then you're missing out on a lot of information in many campaigns...
So now back to the waiting game....except this time at least it's waiting for product rather than waiting for the chance to see what it might be possible to get.......
The waiting game sucks. Let's play Hungry Hungry Hippo!
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BrookM wrote: ACHTUNG! ATTENTION! THIS JUST IN FROM THE KS COMMENTS SECTION OF ALL fething PLACES:
This just in: Pledge Manager NOW CLOSING ON JUNE 19.
We said we would do another Update with more images before the close of the Pledge Manager.
Well, we are almost done, but not completely :(
The machines are running 'round the clock to get the renders out, but nature conspired against us as well: our Sculpt Supervisor became an uncle for the first time this week-end, and so we had to do without him over the week-end...
So, we are slightly pushing out the publication of the next Update and the close of the Pledge Manager as well.
Stay tuned for new images soon!
Hah! Only believe that if you think an offhand comment holds the same weight as an actual update! Better get your pledges in RIGHT NOW!
prankster wrote: Well, not entirely unexpected. As for their reasons, we can only guess. Though maybe the delay is due to them trying to crank out ~50 renders at once on only a couple of machines rather than doing them over a longer period. I mean, they seemed surprised when I suggested uploading them in smaller batches, but I guess the super secret workflow doesn't cover that.
"Renders" of the quality they use in their store images would update at 60fps on my laptop.
Mathieu - It was a concious choice to switch quoi forpas, although to be honest I was thinking of it more akin to a pun in English terms. I'm well aware of the ephemereal qualities of je ne sais quoi but my grasp of French is nowhere near strong enough to judge if my switch actually worked well in context. Very pleased that it seems to have worked better than I thought Certainly wasn't expecting a comparison to Voltaire
Psychotic Storm - He did say that was the cynical side coming out there....I don't think anyone really begrudges someone going to the birth of a new family member, but allow us to extract some pleasure in the teasing of such. If this thread teaches us anything, it's surely to not be too serious
Azazel - You are quite right, 'tis a boring game, Hungry Hungry Hippos it is. If only we could squeeze a bulldog and a siamese in there too.........
prankster wrote: Well, not entirely unexpected. As for their reasons, we can only guess. Though maybe the delay is due to them trying to crank out ~50 renders at once on only a couple of machines rather than doing them over a longer period. I mean, they seemed surprised when I suggested uploading them in smaller batches, but I guess the super secret workflow doesn't cover that.
"Renders" of the quality they use in their store images would update at 60fps on my laptop.
Logic doesn't really have much place in this discussion. It certainly seems to have no place in RH's super secret work flow. Hell, my work laptop would probably have got them done in less time than this.
monkeytroll wrote:Have new pics gone up yet at all?
You expected new pics so soon after they've extended the pledge manager deadline? They need to spend at least 12 hours congratulating one another and saying how good they are to the twitter weaned masses, That's not even taking into consideration the delays caused by the one person who knows how to work the render machines being off over the weekend.
I'd say we're as close to new pics now as we were when the pledge manager launched.
If the only person capable of rendering the pics is out, then they've done a piss-poor job of training their employees to cover each other.
If the only thing he has to do is place a camera in the rendering space, light it, and hit Go, then hell, just get a front and back shot of the full model and skip the up-close-and-personal shots, which really don't tell you all that much about the mini.
It's not last minute. Nothing is actually being worked on. Seriously... this is all just a bad dream.
We will wake up pretty soon and it's once again the first day after the KS project has ended. Tomorrow they'll send out pledge managers. Since all their miniatures are 80% done, they are able to deliver everything in the next 3 months.
While I assume that most of you are just using the latest update to complain some more and make mean-spirited snipes at a guy who just became an uncle (*quickly checks thread* And yeah, you are doing just that) I will instead focus on this:
Holy feth balls!
It's just as good, no, better than I was expecting. Say hellow to the new leader of my Dark Mechanicum army. Wow to the power of wow.
After my wife and I had our first child, my sister was on hand to help us out quite a bit in the immediate aftermath. Without her help we'd have been infinitely more stressed. I sincerely hope there aren't people making similar remarks about her.
It's just as good, no, better than I was expecting. Say hellow to the new leader of my Dark Mechanicum army. Wow to the power of wow.
That of course assumes they actually come out with her before you yourself receive the gifts of the omnissiah via life support at the ripe old age of 84.
Right now it looks like the two (entirely predictable) problems are that some of the sculpts (surprise!) look different enough from the concepts that people are changing their minds.
I will say that the IE Mecha is substantially different.
Concept,
Spoiler:
Renders,
Spoiler:
This is one example where, contra their usual, the look and feel of the model really seems dramatically changed from the concepts. The Death Mask in the concept is unobtrusive and doesn't register at all in the way that the render shows, where it is so large that it almost completely obscures the body.
H.B.M.C. wrote: If they handed you a gold bar you'd complain that they didn't hand you two.
Considering we paid for quite a few gold bars, yep.
Nice renders, but I did lock my pledge already. Probably wouldn't have changed my mind anyway. As usual the quality of sculpts is very good although the IE mecha is just... Terrible. Ludmilla also has a very... peculiar pose. Glad I ended up with the IE strategist for my inquisitor conversion.
Just makes you wonder if they managed to produce them now at the last minute could they really not have released them earlier?
Buzzsaw wrote:Right now it looks like the two (entirely predictable) problems are that some of the sculpts (surprise!) look different enough from the concepts that people are changing their minds.
I will say that the IE Mecha is substantially different.
Concept,
Spoiler:
Renders,
Spoiler:
This is one example where, contra their usual, the look and feel of the model really seems dramatically changed from the concepts. The Death Mask in the concept is unobtrusive and doesn't register at all in the way that the render shows, where it is so large that it almost completely obscures the body.
What about Ludmilla? Maybe I am terribly wrong, but didn't her conceptual cybernetic leg suddenly grow back? Or did I see wrong that it was a prosthetic? (Not to mention the pose looked much more stable on the sketch)
BrookM wrote:And still no Wolfenstein.
I took a risk on that one, but considering it's mostly for fun (And to recreate the glorious DoWC IG commander), since IG commanders can't have claws anyway (for shame!), I don't think they can ruin it for me.
I think Nepharya will now go onto the pledge as well, looking quite good. Elektra's spare head just reminds me of Angleina from Sky Captain, which is probably what they were going for. The other two are nothing special, in my opinion.
As for the support, I quite like the IE artillery, but given I'm aiming mostly for JB troops their crew would be out of place and it'd mean adding more onto my pledge to do what I was planning. Not sold on the mecha, it was originally on my list, after we saw the concept art, but came off a few months ago, think it'll be staying off now. The bikes are still meh, the join to the front wheel is still too low (not the only issue) but at least the IE ones are saved a little by the guard over the top.
The weapons are the few things that I really wanted to see. I was hoping that some of them would be a little larger, but I can work with what's there. Though the heavy gun that the KST Regular Command is sporting on the PM appears to be missing, there's nothing that quite matches it.
@Jan: Don't forget that the final sculpts are very very close to the concept art... it's just not always the concept art that we saw during the funding period.
I couldn't resist, that has to be the worst argument I have ever seen, although I'm pretty sure that's not true and there is no other concept art. "Here, give us money for these things!" "Surprise, you actually bought these things!"
Gah.
prankster wrote: The bikes are still meh, the join to the front wheel is still too low (not the only issue) but at least the IE ones are saved a little by the guard over the top.
Oh dear, I didn't even notice before that post, that the wheel axis DOES NOT GO THROUGH THE MIDDLE OF THE WHEEL. What.
@Jan: Don't forget that the final sculpts are very very close to the concept art... it's just not always the concept art that we saw during the funding period.
I couldn't resist, that has to be the worst argument I have ever seen, although I'm pretty sure that's not true and there is no other concept art. "Here, give us money for these things!" "Surprise, you actually bought these things!"
I wouldn't be surprised to learn it's some random schmoe. It has the ring of idiocy I would expect from the common masses (of a given project's backers).
Even by RH's somewhat questionable communication standards, that's just too daffy of a statement.
Krinsath wrote: I wouldn't be surprised to learn it's some random schmoe. It has the ring of idiocy I would expect from the common masses (of a given project's backers).
Even by RH's somewhat questionable communication standards, that's just too daffy of a statement.
Oh no, it's just some random person. If RH stated something like that I think we'd be getting the pitchforks by now.
Of course, this might not be too far from truth.
Edit: Yeah, he was being sarcastic it seems, but I wasn't quite sure of that when I saw it first. We've seen a lot of strange justifications for RH''s actions.
@Jan: Don't forget that the final sculpts are very very close to the concept art... it's just not always the concept art that we saw during the funding period.
I couldn't resist, that has to be the worst argument I have ever seen, although I'm pretty sure that's not true and there is no other concept art. "Here, give us money for these things!" "Surprise, you actually bought these things!"
Gah.
That's...bad.
But, who is "Thargan"?
I think the follow up makes it a little clearer that it's supposed to be poking fun at the various changes we've seen:
Thargan about 4 hours ago
@Paweł : I was simply commenting on the various changes that we've seen that don't fit with the original concept. I've no idea whether or not RH have super secret concepts as part of their super secret workflow process.
Krinsath wrote: You'd think the regulars in this thread would be better at recognizing sarcasm directed at RH...
Not in the comment section. Each time people try to make some criticism there's always those few voices that say what horrible party poopers you are for ruining the amazing atmosphere of self indulgence.
That used to be the case, though over the past 4-6 weeks there's been a general change in attitude. There's still the die hards who praise everything, but they don't shout people down as much as they used to.
prankster wrote: The bikes are still meh, the join to the front wheel is still too low (not the only issue) but at least the IE ones are saved a little by the guard over the top.
The bikes are going for the (real life) aesthetic below. Not my favorite, but I'm sure it's fine for those that like it.
I saw the new renders, got on their chat, got a couple of the new models added to my order, with no fuss or hassle. Took maybe five minutes chatting with "harry the hippo".
I have to say, my experience with these guys has been anything but unpleasant. Sorry that the rest of you aren't having a good time.
prankster wrote: The bikes are still meh, the join to the front wheel is still too low (not the only issue) but at least the IE ones are saved a little by the guard over the top.
The bikes are going for the (real life) aesthetic below. Not my favorite, but I'm sure it's fine for those that like it.
Because *that* is what you want on the battlefield.
lets be honest...bikes in general are a ridiculous concept in the battlefield. and the RH bikes do at least have the appropriate huge mounted guns on them.
Are any of us buying these miniatures cause they are "realistic"?
But yes, Nurgle Biker Lords (can't wait to see that biker gangs' patches) are nigh unstoppable. The cost of field those however is a segment of your friendbase.
I will open my mind, but whosoever shall help me put my brains back in when they fall out?
Yep, whatever other faults there have been with this campaign, I have to say that was the quickest, most painless way I've ever changed a pledge after 'completion'.
Credit where its due, the chat seems to be working rather well.
On the other hand, if the pledge manager wasn't so clunky, we probably wouldn't have needed it. I'd rather have them working on the sculpts than fixing people's carts.
So I contacted the team like a few of you guys because I'd already confirmed my pledge but I decided I didn't want Ludmilla over Nepharya
Commander Elektra
One Shot Blondie
Karmina Noxx
Volga Potemkine
Snipers
Nepharya (Necro Priestess)
General Ilsa Wolfenstein
Werewolves (Zagrath and Vankaree)
10 girl KST Heavy squad
So as I said I emailed in and Ana had me sorted out inside of forty minutes. "Oh sure! I'll manually remove Ludmilla and add the resin Nepharya you wanted, and then I'll send you an invoice for $10" extremely fast, very polite, wonderful experience in a KS for me.
) get together and grouse about a particularly delicious problem they share.
) should also be welcome to post... granted, as I said, the above points are fair and if someone isn't really following the discussion, that can cause issues.
