Ok pick your favorite primary and give a reason if you feel like it

The Khan, and this is new.

The warhawk thinks for himself. He seems to have real honor, and the last HH novel I read based on him, still left him semi mysterious, but I read into it(prolly too much), but this is the guy who would rebel for the "right" reasons.

If the Khan was active in M40, he'd be destroying the inquisition, the ecclesiarchy (sp), and trying to set people free.

Second choice : Perturabo. Even though he's a moody bitch, I get him, because I'm a moody bitch too. Also; I admire craft and excellence in craft.

This is really tough, I like almost all of them. The only ones I don't like are the Lion and Fulgrim.

Hmm. I'll go Gulliman (which surprises me) mainly because I love how he's portrayed in Know No Fear, which is the one I read most recently, and I'm really excited for Tempest from FW.

The fact that you write names without a first capital letter hurts me, but I'd say Mortarion!

Wow Leman Russ tries being special even here

Well, I voted Sangunius, because I play blood angels. But who is Gulliman? Is he primarch of of Ultramarines chapter?

Yeah he is. Well, Primarch of the Ultramarines Legion, and by extension Chapter, yeah.

Haha the auto correct on my phone is the only reason leman russ was capitolized

Chief Sneakiness himself Alpharius, the guy wields a Necron weapon is able to almost take Horus's ship with a handful of people and may still be alive......Hydra Dominatus!

Vulkan for me. I love his honor and his immense size

 PastelAvenger wrote:
Chief Sneakiness himself Alpharius, the guy wields a Necron weapon is able to almost take Horus's ship with a handful of people and may still be alive......Hydra Dominatus!

I think you meant 'Hail Hydra!"

I voted Kurze, but Vulkan is the best out of the loyalists, and Lion is the best out of the fence-sitters.

Lion El. He punched out Leman Russ

Magnus, i feel sorry for the guy he wanted to do the right thing and got screwed.

Lemon of the Russ. The man had a simple elegance to him,which I dig.

Vote Magnus, The power of Tzeentch compels you!

Magnus. Everything about his story is absolutely gripping. The wise warrior sage who was respected by those of his brothers who weren't narrow visioned against the psyker gene.
The traitor who should never have been a traitor.
Plus his legion were awesome.

Sanguinius, who was the purest, uncorruptable of the Primarchs. IMHO, the Blood Angels and their successors should be uncorruptable as well. Actually, I've never heard of Traitor BA or Successors, could somebody provide examples or are the BA uncorruptable?
Sanguinius was also the wisest of the Primarchs and (arguably) the best in CQC.

Look I play BA and votes sanguinious as well but put your boner away lol, hours wrecked him in cqc, angron could as well, handsdown angron is best in cqc, there have been blood angels ssuccessors that have been excommunicated, but officially there are no traitor blood angels chapters, but by no means am I willing to say uncorruptable I mean the flesh tears, and flesh eaters are basically there lol

It was a toss up for me between Angron and Magnus, but since Magnus was getting more love, I went with Angron. They're the two traitor Primarchs with the most legit grievances, which makes them the most complex, sympathetic, and interesting Primarchs.

And you have to admire how Angron is the only Daemon Primarch who still comes out and wrecks face on a regular basis. You can't stop him, you can only hope to contain him.

 theemporerprotectsnone wrote:
Look I play BA and votes sanguinious as well but put your boner away lol, hours wrecked him in cqc, angron could as well, handsdown angron is best in cqc, there have been blood angels ssuccessors that have been excommunicated, but officially there are no traitor blood angels chapters, but by no means am I willing to say uncorruptable I mean the flesh tears, and flesh eaters are basically there lol

Horus said that the main reason he wanted Angron on his side was because Angron was the only one who could hope to best Sanguinius in combat.

Horus only beat Sanguinius because he was pumped up on warp juice.

 ImAGeek wrote:
Horus only beat Sanguinius because he was pumped up on warp juice.

Take this as a lesson kids...don't do warp juice

 Great White wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Horus only beat Sanguinius because he was pumped up on warp juice.

Take this as a lesson kids...don't do warp juice

Isn't that lesson more like ... do warp juice and beat the best?

 Otto Weston wrote:

 Great White wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Horus only beat Sanguinius because he was pumped up on warp juice.

Take this as a lesson kids...don't do warp juice

Isn't that lesson more like ... do warp juice and beat the best?

More like do warp juice and set the galaxy on fire

 Great White wrote:

 Otto Weston wrote:

 Great White wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Horus only beat Sanguinius because he was pumped up on warp juice.

Take this as a lesson kids...don't do warp juice

Isn't that lesson more like ... do warp juice and beat the best?

More like do warp juice and set the galaxy on fire

Or do warp juice - gak happens

 Otto Weston wrote:
Or do warp juice - gak happens

Do warp juice and get thrown in a cell for 10k years like Luther. Don't do warp juice!

Anyway, I can't believe Guilliman is winning the poll... They could probably fit all the first founding chapters in the SM codex with the amount of face time the Ultramarines get.

The Lion. Out of all the Primarchs, along with all the Legions, the Dark Angels and their Lord seem to be the most mature of all the Legions as to the material written on them, or at least have a story and drive to them that most Legions and Primarchs lack.

Plus unlike Curze, Angron, or Mortarion, the Lion knows that having a gakky childhood isn't an excuse to go on an insane krumpin' fest.

 Wyzilla wrote:
The Lion. Out of all the Primarchs, along with all the Legions, the Dark Angels and their Lord seem to be the most mature of all the Legions as to the material written on them, or at least have a story and drive to them that most Legions and Primarchs lack.

Plus unlike Curze, Angron, or Mortarion, the Lion knows that having a gakky childhood isn't an excuse to go on an insane krumpin' fest.

Mature? I always thought he came across as a moody teenager. Angron didn't just have a gakky childhood though - the Nails were beyond that.

Anyway, I voted for the misspelled Alpharius/Omegon. Even if they're portrayed with inconsistent personalities (individually and together), they have plans, even if they are currently only involved in schemes that involve abandoned amusement parks and avoiding Scooby Doo.

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
The Lion. Out of all the Primarchs, along with all the Legions, the Dark Angels and their Lord seem to be the most mature of all the Legions as to the material written on them, or at least have a story and drive to them that most Legions and Primarchs lack.

Plus unlike Curze, Angron, or Mortarion, the Lion knows that having a gakky childhood isn't an excuse to go on an insane krumpin' fest.

Mature? I always thought he came across as a moody teenager. Angron didn't just have a gakky childhood though - the Nails were beyond that.

Anyway, I voted for the misspelled Alpharius/Omegon. Even if they're portrayed with inconsistent personalities (individually and together), they have plans, even if they are currently only involved in schemes that involve abandoned amusement parks and avoiding Scooby Doo.

Well the Lion is probably Bipolar given his mood swings, but he doesn't start skinning and stringing civilians up from the rafters like Night Lords, butchering civilians for the sake of butchery like Angron, or butcher civilians for the lulz like Fulgrim. You still don't want to talk back to the guy or piss him off, but he's not insane like most of his kin.

Angron is a bit of a special case though. He's not just insane for the sake of it, he's literally being driven mad slowly by whatever insidious technology was hammered into his brain while he was a slave. He then had to watch his only friends in the world die as he was forced to leave them in the lurch, and now he has to fight for his father who he sees as just as bad as the tyrants that enslaved him in the first place.

Ya know, I'd be a little grouchy too.

Also, I cant stand the Lion. I prefer Curze to the Lion, again Curze is almost tragic ala Angron, driven mad by the world he grew up on, the failures and corruption of his legion that he hates, and the visions of his own death. Yeah he's messed up but like Angron you can trace back and see why. The Lion has never struck me as mature, the complete opposite in fact.

I agree about Fulgrim though. Can't stand him. Even in the novel Fulgrim when he wasn't corrupted yet he was a massive prat.

I voted lion because he is what the primarchs should have been fluff wise, human but not quite getting all the subtle nuances a human is born with, because at the end of the day they are not even remotely human.

I like Vulkan, I think he's a cool dude. Also he's a father to his men.

 lcmiracle wrote:
I like Vulkan, I think he's a cool dude. Also he's a father to his men.

Most of the Primarchs were a father to their men.

Why are you all writing "Perturabo" wrong?

I like Konrad... Marlon Brando FTW! Sanguiny is my favourite loyal but Konrad is overall.

Noobbomb ... your avatar ... bad guy from Dragon Age?

 thenoobbomb wrote:
Why are you all writing "Perturabo" wrong?

Haha, Perturabo is pretty awesome. I know as a whole Angel Exterminatus isn't a great book, but I really like Pertys character in it. I almost went with him actually.

Lol no love for corax and surprisingly no love for one of the biggest characters in the entire fluff the webmaster himself horus

I also really like Corax actually he was an option too. Most of them are pretty awesome in one way or another.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 thenoobbomb wrote:
Why are you all writing "Perturabo" wrong?

Haha, Perturabo is pretty awesome. I know as a whole Angel Exterminatus isn't a great book, but I really like Pertys character in it. I almost went with him actually.

I really enjoyed Angel Exterminatus, it's a lot better than people give it credit for.

 theemporerprotectsnone wrote:
Lol no love for corax and surprisingly no love for one of the biggest characters in the entire fluff the webmaster himself horus

Same. I knew Sanguinius was going to be popular, but I'm surprised Horus and Russ aren't up there with him.

 theemporerprotectsnone wrote:
Lol no love for corax and surprisingly no love for one of the biggest characters in the entire fluff the webmaster himself horus

Well being the big bad of the HH story line has its drawbacks...

 ImAGeek wrote:

 lcmiracle wrote:
I like Vulkan, I think he's a cool dude. Also he's a father to his men.

Most of the Primarchs were a father to their men.

Yeah I admit I might have jumped the guns here... While being "A Father to His Men" mean that not only must one be a fatherly figure to those under his/her(if is "A Mother to her men/women") command, one must also genuinely care for them. The father must treat those under him with genuine fatherly love and respect and shiz, maybe even dropping a few Manly Tears off screen for his sons he knew he sent to die. I haven't read Vulkan lives yet, so I based that on this image alone:
\

also Xa'ven, the Salamander legionaire from Scars was a really cool dude.

But to extend on this point: from Horus Rising and False Gods, I've gathered that while Horus did care for the Luna Wolves, he was also doing that very politician-like - to induce devotion and gather support, to broker terms and issue commands. This would make sense seeming how he was the Warmaster, and he can only care for so much before having to stop. Although IIRC the one scene where he fought side by side when surrounded by an Interex army was pretty fatherly like. Russ was ok to his warriors, like in Scars and Prosperos Burns, what passages described him was either him being pissed off at his enemis or him treating his men as friends, or as much as a feudal king would treat who he considers are friends; Ferrus Manus, in Fulgrim at least, struck me as more of a normally cool and calculating character; no the kind to mangle with humanly emotions. I also found Fulgrim too eccentric, Angron too angry, Mortarion too secluded to fit this character.

Sanguinus might fit this trope. Guilliman, while certainly no general ripper, I feel is too military-minded to be that old man. Not sure about Lion either, it seems most of his HH novels describe events seemingly nearly-unrelated to the Rebellion itself, so I haven't make room in my budget nor schedule for them. Jahaghtai Khan also seemed to me, close to this trope, then again, Scars described only that he treated the likes of Yesuegei, his life-long friends and comrades from before the Great Crusade, well, and he had more down-to-earth interaction with that "Ministratum woman" than almost all of his sons. The final parable Yesuegei told to the Khan also struck me as more of a "wise man calming an angry warlord" story. Conrad... somwhow doesn't seem likely to be this character, and Alpharius/Omegan are to&*#&*^#$^(*#$

 PastelAvenger wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 thenoobbomb wrote:
Why are you all writing "Perturabo" wrong?

Haha, Perturabo is pretty awesome. I know as a whole Angel Exterminatus isn't a great book, but I really like Pertys character in it. I almost went with him actually.

I really enjoyed Angel Exterminatus, it's a lot better than people give it credit for.

I really enjoyed it too. I guess I meant 'I know most people don't like AE, but...' There are a few little niggles with it but nothing major, and I love it purely because of Sharrowkyn.

The Iron Warrior player/fan in me says Perturabo. I think I'll go with him.

Honorable mentions go to Curze for being Batman gone too far and Angron for the whole Spartacus thing he has going.

 lcmiracle wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 lcmiracle wrote:
I like Vulkan, I think he's a cool dude. Also he's a father to his men.

Most of the Primarchs were a father to their men.

Yeah I admit I might have jumped the guns here... While being "A Father to His Men" mean that not only must one be a fatherly figure to those under his/her(if is "A Mother to her men/women") command, one must also genuinely care for them. The father must treat those under him with genuine fatherly love and respect and shiz, maybe even dropping a few Manly Tears off screen for his sons he knew he sent to die. I haven't read Vulkan lives yet, so I based that on this image alone:
\

also Xa'ven, the Salamander legionaire from Scars was a really cool dude.

But to extend on this point: from Horus Rising and False Gods, I've gathered that while Horus did care for the Luna Wolves, he was also doing that very politician-like - to induce devotion and gather support, to broker terms and issue commands. This would make sense seeming how he was the Warmaster, and he can only care for so much before having to stop. Although IIRC the one scene where he fought side by side when surrounded by an Interex army was pretty fatherly like. Russ was ok to his warriors, like in Scars and Prosperos Burns, what passages described him was either him being pissed off at his enemis or him treating his men as friends, or as much as a feudal king would treat who he considers are friends; Ferrus Manus, in Fulgrim at least, struck me as more of a normally cool and calculating character; no the kind to mangle with humanly emotions. I also found Fulgrim too eccentric, Angron too angry, Mortarion too secluded to fit this character.

Sanguinus might fit this trope. Guilliman, while certainly no general ripper, I feel is too military-minded to be that old man. Not sure about Lion either, it seems most of his HH novels describe events seemingly nearly-unrelated to the Rebellion itself, so I haven't make room in my budget nor schedule for them. Jahaghtai Khan also seemed to me, close to this trope, then again, Scars described only that he treated the likes of Yesuegei, his life-long friends and comrades from before the Great Crusade, well, and he had more down-to-earth interaction with that "Ministratum woman" than almost all of his sons. The final parable Yesuegei told to the Khan also struck me as more of a "wise man calming an angry warlord" story. Conrad... somwhow doesn't seem likely to be this character, and Alpharius/Omegan are to&*#&*^#$^(*#$

Nah I get what you mean, Vulkan is the most human, and seems the most caring of the Primarchs. Most of the traitors definitely aren't as fatherly, except maybe Horus early on, and I think Lorgar definitely was very fatherly before his corruption, from how he treats Argal Tal after he went into the Eye of Terror. Perturabo literally had ten percent of his legion killed, Angron seems to care very little for his legion (weird seeing as he's all about brotherhood), Curze hates his legion, Mortarion...we've not seen much of but their whole attrition style leads me to think he doesn't care overly, oh Magnus is probably another that's quite fatherly, Fulgrim just cares about glory, Alpharius isn't overly caring but isn't overly cold to his legion, he treats them as equal I think, let's them all have their say.

Russ and The Khan I think do care, like you say, they treat their men like friends and equals as warriors rather than sons. Guillaman I think it mentions in KNF that he doesn't quite have the rapport with his legion that others have, but from his anger at the betrayal and his sons being killed on Calth I think he does care like a father, just maybe a distant one too wrapped up in his work. Ferrus Manus is very inhuman and cold, I think in Massacre it mentions legionnaires being killed for failures and such. Sanguinius is up there with Vulkan for being like a father. I don't like the Lion so I don't really know. Dorn i think is possibly like Guillaman, a bit distant, and it mentions in Extermination that he would use as many men as needed to complete a task, but doesn't like it, while Perturabo will do so without a second thought. Corax cares for his men but is fairly independent just due to the nature of his legion, but again his anger at the massacre of his sons at Istvaan shows he is quite fatherly.

All in all I think I overstated the 'fatherlyness' of the Primarchs a little.

Ferrus Manus, because he is dead and we will never again have to read any more badly written primarch spank about him (which leaves more for our spritual liege... ) .

 ImAGeek wrote:

 thenoobbomb wrote:
Why are you all writing "Perturabo" wrong?

Haha, Perturabo is pretty awesome. I know as a whole Angel Exterminatus isn't a great book, but I really like Pertys character in it. I almost went with him actually.

It's the reason I went with Iron Warriors instead of Word Bearers for my Chaos army

 thenoobbomb wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 thenoobbomb wrote:
Why are you all writing "Perturabo" wrong?

Haha, Perturabo is pretty awesome. I know as a whole Angel Exterminatus isn't a great book, but I really like Pertys character in it. I almost went with him actually.

It's the reason I went with Iron Warriors instead of Word Bearers for my Chaos army

I'm torn between the two for 30k, they're both pretty awesome. Actually I'm torn between about 9 for 30k...

 ImAGeek wrote:

 PastelAvenger wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 thenoobbomb wrote:
Why are you all writing "Perturabo" wrong?

Haha, Perturabo is pretty awesome. I know as a whole Angel Exterminatus isn't a great book, but I really like Pertys character in it. I almost went with him actually.

I really enjoyed Angel Exterminatus, it's a lot better than people give it credit for.

I really enjoyed it too. I guess I meant 'I know most people don't like AE, but...' There are a few little niggles with it but nothing major, and I love it purely because of Sharrowkyn.

Sharrowkyn is brilliant in it, I am currently reading Seventh Serpent mainly because it follows on from AE

 PastelAvenger wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 PastelAvenger wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 thenoobbomb wrote:
Why are you all writing "Perturabo" wrong?

Haha, Perturabo is pretty awesome. I know as a whole Angel Exterminatus isn't a great book, but I really like Pertys character in it. I almost went with him actually.

I really enjoyed Angel Exterminatus, it's a lot better than people give it credit for.

I really enjoyed it too. I guess I meant 'I know most people don't like AE, but...' There are a few little niggles with it but nothing major, and I love it purely because of Sharrowkyn.

Sharrowkyn is brilliant in it, I am currently reading Seventh Serpent mainly because it follows on from AE

I finished that last week. I enjoyed it - anything with the Alpha Legion and Sharrowkyn in it is alright by me!

 ImAGeek wrote:

 PastelAvenger wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 PastelAvenger wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 thenoobbomb wrote:
Why are you all writing "Perturabo" wrong?

Haha, Perturabo is pretty awesome. I know as a whole Angel Exterminatus isn't a great book, but I really like Pertys character in it. I almost went with him actually.

I really enjoyed Angel Exterminatus, it's a lot better than people give it credit for.

I really enjoyed it too. I guess I meant 'I know most people don't like AE, but...' There are a few little niggles with it but nothing major, and I love it purely because of Sharrowkyn.

Sharrowkyn is brilliant in it, I am currently reading Seventh Serpent mainly because it follows on from AE

I finished that last week. I enjoyed it - anything with the Alpha Legion and Sharrowkyn in it is alright by me!

I often wish there was a like button on this forum. Now is one of those times.

 King Pariah wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 PastelAvenger wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 PastelAvenger wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 thenoobbomb wrote:
Why are you all writing "Perturabo" wrong?

Haha, Perturabo is pretty awesome. I know as a whole Angel Exterminatus isn't a great book, but I really like Pertys character in it. I almost went with him actually.

I really enjoyed Angel Exterminatus, it's a lot better than people give it credit for.

I really enjoyed it too. I guess I meant 'I know most people don't like AE, but...' There are a few little niggles with it but nothing major, and I love it purely because of Sharrowkyn.

Sharrowkyn is brilliant in it, I am currently reading Seventh Serpent mainly because it follows on from AE

I finished that last week. I enjoyed it - anything with the Alpha Legion and Sharrowkyn in it is alright by me!

Sharrowkyn, the only being in the gaxaly that acts like a fething ninja and then runs away, while also killing lucius and everything in his path.....

I voted The Lion, mostly because he is the only primarch that is not insane, and acts like a loyal and noble primarch. I mean he was screwed over quite a bit, and his hate for Gulliman is well placed.

Guillaman, Sanguinius, both perfectly sane, loyal and noble.

i would vote angron if FW hadnt destroyed his image for me... i dont like his model at all :[
therefore its Horus

 ImAGeek wrote:
Guillaman, Sanguinius, both perfectly sane, loyal and noble.

Gulliman was selfish and wanted to create his own empire.

Sanguinius was the true warmaster and deserved to be the true warmaster.

If he was warmaster. There would of been no heresy, humanity would of live and Lorgar would of been screwed.

The Lion is not an adminstrator, Sanguinius and Horus are.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Guillaman, Sanguinius, both perfectly sane, loyal and noble.

Gulliman was selfish and wanted to create his own empire.

Sanguinius was the true warmaster and deserved to be the true warmaster.

If he was warmaster. There would of been no heresy, humanity would of live and Lorgar would of been screwed.

The Lion is not an adminstrator, Sanguinius and Horus are.

I'm sorry, you can't talk about questionable loyalty if you're supporting the Lion...

Guillaman thought Terra had/ could have fallen. He was taking steps to secure man kinds future. He didn't even want to be the new Emperor, He gave that to Sanguinius.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Guillaman, Sanguinius, both perfectly sane, loyal and noble.

Gulliman was selfish and wanted to create his own empire.

Sanguinius was the true warmaster and deserved to be the true warmaster.

If he was warmaster. There would of been no heresy, humanity would of live and Lorgar would of been screwed.

The Lion is not an adminstrator, Sanguinius and Horus are.

I'm sorry, you can't talk about questionable loyalty if you're supporting the Lion...

Guillaman thought Terra had/ could have fallen. He was taking steps to secure man kinds future. He didn't even want to be the new Emperor, He gave that to Sanguinius.

He only did that after the Lion literally asked. "What are you doing?"

Gulliman tried to become empire. The Lion literally says that "Gulliman wants an empire of his own."

The Lion arrived too late for the throne, he did not have questionable loyalty as said by the demon Fateweaver who tried to bring the Lion to his side, but said he was too stubborn and loved the Emperor too much.

The Lion was trained as a Knight. But he would not betray his lord and emperor.

Gulliman wanted his own empire. The Lion did not think it was good to betray the emperor.

Oh the Lion said that?! Must be true...

Guillaman didn't betray anyone. He was attempting to start over in case Terra had fallen, bearing in mind he didn't know what was going on because of warp storms. He was setting up a contingency plan.

I loathe gulliman who tells everyone how superior everything is he does and that they should do their work after his principles ... Besides, his name always sounds to me like "the gully man", has a very sewage ring to it... fits him.

 ImAGeek wrote:
Oh the Lion said that?! Must be true...

Guillaman didn't betray anyone. He was attempting to start over in case Terra had fallen, bearing in mind he didn't know what was going on because of warp storms. He was setting up a contingency plan.

The Lion was not a traitor, Guillaman was making an empire of his own. Not just because he thought terra had fallen but because he really didn't care. He wanted to rule. He was jealous of Horus being warmaster.

That sounds like someone giving up and saying oh well. I'll do something that could be considered heresy anyway.

Sorry, the Lion was most bitter about Horus being Warmaster of maybe all the Primarchs. He always thought it should be him. Maybe it would have been if he had any kind of people skills whatsoever.

 ImAGeek wrote:
Sorry, the Lion was most bitter about Horus being Warmaster of maybe all the Primarchs.

Hahaha. No.

Only Horus Said that. And it was later said that the Lion even openly admits that he would of not made a great warmaster.

No he definitely wouldn't. Guillaman however, would be great at it

Full disclosure, I really hate the Lion. He's not even interesting, and I've never liked the Dark Angels. You're probably right about him being completely loyal and maybe Guilliman did have ulterior motives but I just can't bring myself to like the Lion.

 ImAGeek wrote:
No he definitely wouldn't. Guillaman however, would be great at it

Full disclosure, I really hate the Lion. He's not even interesting, and I've never liked the Dark Angels. You're probably right about him being completely loyal and maybe Guilliman did have ulterior motives but I just can't bring myself to like the Lion.

I like Gulliman but he always seemed too shifty.

But The Lion was never an adminstrator I can see why people don't like him particular.

how come everyone likes Sangunius? not complaining, I like him too.

 KaptinBadrukk wrote:
how come everyone likes Sangunius? not complaining, I like him too.

Because he is a guy with massive wings.

 KaptinBadrukk wrote:
how come everyone likes Sangunius? not complaining, I like him too.

They tried clicking on Perturabo, but missed

magnus.

The lion himself was perfectly loyal to the emporer, its his chapter that is borderline heretics lol

 theemporerprotectsnone wrote:
The lion himself was perfectly loyal to the emporer, its his chapter that is borderline heretics lol

borderline?

Every one like sanguinious bcus he was noble, loyal to a fault, bad ass warrior, had wings and was partly a rage monster vampire lol

Konrad curze. ultimate primarch. ok he had alot of flaws but didnt all of the primarchs


Automatically Appended Next Post:
and about the lion. there is a conspiracy about him and its from the cypher data slate. the lion who was master of lighting fast attacks was "held up" by a waarp storm. however according to the fallen the lion was waiting for aan outcome to the horus heresey to make his final dicision

 zinogre wrote:
Konrad curze. ultimate primarch. ok he had alot of flaws but didnt all of the primarchs


Automatically Appended Next Post:
and about the lion. there is a conspiracy about him and its from the cypher data slate. the lion who was master of lighting fast attacks was "held up" by a waarp storm. however according to the fallen the lion was waiting for aan outcome to the horus heresey to make his final dicision

You can't control the Warp, though.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
The Lion. Out of all the Primarchs, along with all the Legions, the Dark Angels and their Lord seem to be the most mature of all the Legions as to the material written on them, or at least have a story and drive to them that most Legions and Primarchs lack.

Plus unlike Curze, Angron, or Mortarion, the Lion knows that having a gakky childhood isn't an excuse to go on an insane krumpin' fest.

Mature? I always thought he came across as a moody teenager. Angron didn't just have a gakky childhood though - the Nails were beyond that.

Anyway, I voted for the misspelled Alpharius/Omegon. Even if they're portrayed with inconsistent personalities (individually and together), they have plans, even if they are currently only involved in schemes that involve abandoned amusement parks and avoiding Scooby Doo.

Well the Lion is probably Bipolar given his mood swings, but he doesn't start skinning and stringing civilians up from the rafters like Night Lords, butchering civilians for the sake of butchery like Angron, or butcher civilians for the lulz like Fulgrim. You still don't want to talk back to the guy or piss him off, but he's not insane like most of his kin.

Wait, so being bipolar is an excuse for moody behaviour, whilst being driven mad from visions of the future and having nails in your brain isn't?

 Asherian Command wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Oh the Lion said that?! Must be true...

Guillaman didn't betray anyone. He was attempting to start over in case Terra had fallen, bearing in mind he didn't know what was going on because of warp storms. He was setting up a contingency plan.

The Lion was not a traitor, Guillaman was making an empire of his own. Not just because he thought terra had fallen but because he really didn't care. He wanted to rule. He was jealous of Horus being warmaster.

That sounds like someone giving up and saying oh well. I'll do something that could be considered heresy anyway.

Gulliman was consolidating and looking to rebuild the empire because he thought it had fallen and didn't really know what was going on, no where does it suggest that he didn't care. He may have been jealous of Horus's title but he was still a very dutiful Primarch. If we want to talk of his arrogance then thats a different story altogether,,,,,

 Asherian Command wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Guillaman, Sanguinius, both perfectly sane, loyal and noble.

Gulliman was selfish and wanted to create his own empire.

Sanguinius was the true warmaster and deserved to be the true warmaster.

If he was warmaster. There would of been no heresy, humanity would of live and Lorgar would of been screwed.

The Lion is not an adminstrator, Sanguinius and Horus are.

I am surprised by how bad English people are at English..

 Reality-Torrent wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Guillaman, Sanguinius, both perfectly sane, loyal and noble.

Gulliman was selfish and wanted to create his own empire.

Sanguinius was the true warmaster and deserved to be the true warmaster.

If he was warmaster. There would of been no heresy, humanity would of live and Lorgar would of been screwed.

The Lion is not an adminstrator, Sanguinius and Horus are.

I am surprised by how bad English people are at English..

There's much much worse on the forum than that. I'd put Asherian Commands slightly bad English there down to quick typing or something. Unless you meant me..?

 Reality-Torrent wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Guillaman, Sanguinius, both perfectly sane, loyal and noble.

Gulliman was selfish and wanted to create his own empire.

Sanguinius was the true warmaster and deserved to be the true warmaster.

If he was warmaster. There would of been no heresy, humanity would of live and Lorgar would of been screwed.

The Lion is not an adminstrator, Sanguinius and Horus are.

I am surprised by how bad English people are at English..

I am facing with similar problem because tiny keyboard issue.

There's much much worse on the forum than that. I'd put Asherian Commands slightly bad English there down to quick typing or something. Unless you meant me..?

Mostly I type way too fast for my own good. That sometimes my mind is trying to catch up but my fingers are moving too fast for me to actually make a comprehensible sentence.

 Reality-Torrent wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Guillaman, Sanguinius, both perfectly sane, loyal and noble.

Gulliman was selfish and wanted to create his own empire.

Sanguinius was the true warmaster and deserved to be the true warmaster.

If he was warmaster. There would of been no heresy, humanity would of live and Lorgar would of been screwed.

The Lion is not an adminstrator, Sanguinius and Horus are.

I am surprised by how bad English people are at English..

Someone from Illinois, USA is English...?

 Asherian Command wrote:

There's much much worse on the forum than that. I'd put Asherian Commands slightly bad English there down to quick typing or something. Unless you meant me..?

Mostly I type way too fast for my own good. That sometimes my mind is trying to catch up but my fingers are moving too fast for me to actually make a comprehensible sentence.

Yeah I thought so. I'd be the same if not for autocorrect on iPad/iPhone. I've got your back man

I think I need to switch my favorite lol, sang is getting to much love

”Guilliman is totally a traitor” said no sane person ever.

Anyway, I voted for Guilliman, with pre-corrupted Horus being the second favorite of mine.

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
The Lion. Out of all the Primarchs, along with all the Legions, the Dark Angels and their Lord seem to be the most mature of all the Legions as to the material written on them, or at least have a story and drive to them that most Legions and Primarchs lack.

Plus unlike Curze, Angron, or Mortarion, the Lion knows that having a gakky childhood isn't an excuse to go on an insane krumpin' fest.

Mature? I always thought he came across as a moody teenager. Angron didn't just have a gakky childhood though - the Nails were beyond that.

Anyway, I voted for the misspelled Alpharius/Omegon. Even if they're portrayed with inconsistent personalities (individually and together), they have plans, even if they are currently only involved in schemes that involve abandoned amusement parks and avoiding Scooby Doo.

Well the Lion is probably Bipolar given his mood swings, but he doesn't start skinning and stringing civilians up from the rafters like Night Lords, butchering civilians for the sake of butchery like Angron, or butcher civilians for the lulz like Fulgrim. You still don't want to talk back to the guy or piss him off, but he's not insane like most of his kin.

Wait, so being bipolar is an excuse for moody behaviour, whilst being driven mad from visions of the future and having nails in your brain isn't?

He wasn't really bi-polar, but more withdrawn and sometimes quick to anger. That's just how he was. I also think Angron had good reasons for going fully nuts. Hell, they should have just called him Angry Primarch.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 theemporerprotectsnone wrote:
The lion himself was perfectly loyal to the emporer, its his chapter that is borderline heretics lol

How? His best friend and second in command got tainted by the warp, manipulated everyone on Caliban, and turned them on the rest of the Chapter. I wouldn't say it's the chapter that are heretics, I think it was mainly Lion El's second in command.

The half of the legion left at Caliban was corrupted by Nurgle through the ambition of Luthor if memory serves.

BTW favorite Primarch is Lemann Russ or Rogal Dorn.

 Beaviz81 wrote:
The half of the legion left at Caliban was corrupted by Nurgle through the ambition of Luthor if memory serves.

BTW favorite Primarch is Lemann Russ or Rogal Dorn.

Nope..

Fateweaver corrupted them (Tzeench)

Not nurgle. Nurgle's not that cunning.

I voted for the lion,
but maybe the lion was the one corrupted by chaos and Luther was completely loyal to the emperor, and the fallen are the good guys, as well as the now loyal dark angels.

 Redcruisair wrote:
”Guilliman is totally a traitor” said no sane person ever.

Anyway, I voted for Guilliman, with pre-corrupted Horus being the second favorite of mine.

Funny because if Guilliman died, the Ultramarines would of gone to terra and the emperor would still be alive.

I voted for the lion,
but maybe the lion was the one corrupted by chaos and Luther was completely loyal to the emperor, and the fallen are the good guys, as well as the now loyal dark angels.

Umm. No. That has been debunked.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:
The half of the legion left at Caliban was corrupted by Nurgle through the ambition of Luthor if memory serves.

BTW favorite Primarch is Lemann Russ or Rogal Dorn.

Nope..

Fateweaver corrupted them (Tzeench)

Not nurgle. Nurgle's not that cunning.

Cite when and where, and give me the link in private.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Redcruisair wrote:
”Guilliman is totally a traitor” said no sane person ever.

Anyway, I voted for Guilliman, with pre-corrupted Horus being the second favorite of mine.

Funny because if Guilliman died, the Ultramarines would of gone to terra and the emperor would still be alive.

I voted for the lion,
but maybe the lion was the one corrupted by chaos and Luther was completely loyal to the emperor, and the fallen are the good guys, as well as the now loyal dark angels.

Umm. No. That has been debunked.

Dark Angel propaganda.

Both Rowboat Girlyman and Lion El'Waitandsee were conveniently absent from Terra.

Dark Angel propaganda.

Both Rowboat Girlyman and Lion El'Waitandsee were conveniently absent from Terra.

Uhuh. Keep telling yourself that.

Maybe Cypher is actually Luther, trying to redeem his bothers who have been wrongly accussed of being traitors. And that the traitor locked underneath the rock is the lion.

 Vespid wrote:
Maybe Cypher is actually Luther, trying to redeem his bothers who have been wrongly accussed of being traitors. And that the traitor locked underneath the rock is the lion.

Or its Zahriel or its the Knight of Lupus.

 Vespid wrote:
Maybe Cypher is actually Luther, trying to redeem his bothers who have been wrongly accussed of being traitors. And that the traitor locked underneath the rock is the lion.

No, the Lion is sleeping within the Rock. Luther is still in his cell.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Lion_El%27Jonson#The_Fate_of_Jonson

Zahariel might be Cypher. Would make the most sense and would actually make a decent story.

 EmpNortonII wrote:
Dark Angel propaganda.

Both Rowboat Girlyman and Lion El'Waitandsee were conveniently absent from Terra.

The Dark Angels were mainly delayed because they were busy fighting the Night Lords.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Thramas_Crusade

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Beaviz81 wrote:
The half of the legion left at Caliban was corrupted by Nurgle through the ambition of Luthor if memory serves.

BTW favorite Primarch is Lemann Russ or Rogal Dorn.

Nope..

Fateweaver corrupted them (Tzeench)

Not nurgle. Nurgle's not that cunning.

Yep. Thank you, I forgot which one corrupted them


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vespid wrote:
I voted for the lion,
but maybe the lion was the one corrupted by chaos and Luther was completely loyal to the emperor, and the fallen are the good guys, as well as the now loyal dark angels.

Yeah, nope.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 Vespid wrote:
Maybe Cypher is actually Luther, trying to redeem his bothers who have been wrongly accussed of being traitors. And that the traitor locked underneath the rock is the lion.

No, the Lion is sleeping within the Rock. Luther is still in his cell.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Lion_El%27Jonson#The_Fate_of_Jonson

Zahariel might be Cypher. Would make the most sense and would actually make a decent story.

 EmpNortonII wrote:
Dark Angel propaganda.

Both Rowboat Girlyman and Lion El'Waitandsee were conveniently absent from Terra.

The Dark Angels were mainly delayed because they were busy fighting the Night Lords.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Thramas_Crusade

This. Exalted for lore truth.

 EngulfedObject wrote:

Both Rowboat Girlyman and Lion El'Waitandsee were conveniently absent from Terra.

The Dark Angels were mainly delayed because they were busy fighting the Night Lords.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Thramas_Crusade

That’s cute. So DA gets a pass due to their scuffle with the Night Lords, but the Ultramarines don’t get one for being ambushed at Calth, smacked around in the Shadow Crusade and then completely blocked from traversing the warp thanks to Lorgar’s warp storm?

Give me a break already.

 Redcruisair wrote:

 EngulfedObject wrote:

Both Rowboat Girlyman and Lion El'Waitandsee were conveniently absent from Terra.

The Dark Angels were mainly delayed because they were busy fighting the Night Lords.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Thramas_Crusade

That’s cute. So DA gets a pass due to their scuffle with the Night Lords, but the Ultramarines don’t get one for being ambushed at Calth, smacked around in the Shadow Crusade and then completely blocked from traversing the warp thanks to Lorgar’s warp storm?

Give me a break already.

The battle of calth was over by that point. But the nightlords were distracting the majority of the dark angels and the Lion wanted the night lords dead.

The Ultramarines had no such excuse.

 Redcruisair wrote:

 EngulfedObject wrote:

Both Rowboat Girlyman and Lion El'Waitandsee were conveniently absent from Terra.

The Dark Angels were mainly delayed because they were busy fighting the Night Lords.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Thramas_Crusade

That’s cute. So DA gets a pass due to their scuffle with the Night Lords, but the Ultramarines don’t get one for being ambushed at Calth, smacked around in the Shadow Crusade and then completely blocked from traversing the warp thanks to Lorgar’s warp storm?

Give me a break already.

Nope, Ultramarines don't get a pass. If they didn't get ambushed at Calth, how else could they be Mary Sue?

lion el johnsonville sausages
Lemon rush
horse
sanguinius- actual space jesus
vulkan- space wolverine
Rick and Morty
fulgrim- Just wanted to be pretty
alpharious "Because it would've been too easy"...
girlyman
Magnus- best lore out there, cool story about pride, hubris, father/son relationships, power, fate, even a love interest in one of the books, everything ever considered important in the human existence.
angry ron
konrad kurze client
contacts
angry dorn
KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN
fear us
lorgar- not actual space jesus
portobello mushrooms

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Redcruisair wrote:

 EngulfedObject wrote:

Both Rowboat Girlyman and Lion El'Waitandsee were conveniently absent from Terra.

The Dark Angels were mainly delayed because they were busy fighting the Night Lords.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Thramas_Crusade

That’s cute. So DA gets a pass due to their scuffle with the Night Lords, but the Ultramarines don’t get one for being ambushed at Calth, smacked around in the Shadow Crusade and then completely blocked from traversing the warp thanks to Lorgar’s warp storm?

Give me a break already.

Nope, Ultramarines don't get a pass. If they didn't get ambushed at Calth, how else could they be Mary Sue?

They're a lot more Mary Sue after the Heresy. Before the Heresy they were just a very well organised, efficient army led by a very very clever, but very stubborn Primarch.

And yeah, they should get a pass. Calth was devastating to them, then there was the Shadow Crusade where most of their worlds were destroyed and then the whole system was embroiled in a massive warpstorm of Lorgars orchestration. They couldn't go anywhere, or communicate.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Redcruisair wrote:

 EngulfedObject wrote:

Both Rowboat Girlyman and Lion El'Waitandsee were conveniently absent from Terra.

The Dark Angels were mainly delayed because they were busy fighting the Night Lords.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Thramas_Crusade

That’s cute. So DA gets a pass due to their scuffle with the Night Lords, but the Ultramarines don’t get one for being ambushed at Calth, smacked around in the Shadow Crusade and then completely blocked from traversing the warp thanks to Lorgar’s warp storm?

Give me a break already.

The battle of calth was over by that point. But the nightlords were distracting the majority of the dark angels and the Lion wanted the night lords dead.

The Ultramarines had no such excuse.

Hadn't the Thramas Crusade ended at a similar time to the battle of Calth as the Dark Angels bring Curze and some Night Lords to Macragge?

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Redcruisair wrote:

 EngulfedObject wrote:

Both Rowboat Girlyman and Lion El'Waitandsee were conveniently absent from Terra.

The Dark Angels were mainly delayed because they were busy fighting the Night Lords.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Thramas_Crusade

That’s cute. So DA gets a pass due to their scuffle with the Night Lords, but the Ultramarines don’t get one for being ambushed at Calth, smacked around in the Shadow Crusade and then completely blocked from traversing the warp thanks to Lorgar’s warp storm?

Give me a break already.

The battle of calth was over by that point. But the nightlords were distracting the majority of the dark angels and the Lion wanted the night lords dead.

The Ultramarines had no such excuse.

Hadn't it ended at a similar time to the battle of Calth as the Dark Angels bring Curze and some Night Lords to Macragge?

Good point actually, the Lion was at Imperium Secundus so he must've been mostly done with the Night Lords (apart from Curze who was on his ship).

Yep. Lion could have taken his legion straight to Terra after his smacking around Curze. But hey, telling Guilliman to stick that pipe where the sun doesn’t shine was apparently more important to him than coming to his father’s aid.

 Redcruisair wrote:
Yep. Lion could have taken his legion straight to Terra after his smacking around Curze. But hey, telling Guilliman to stick that pipe where the sun doesn’t shine was apparently more important to him than coming to his father’s aid.

Evidence, or would you rather just provide conjecture? Lion was actually pretty distraught that he didn't make it in time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Redcruisair wrote:

 EngulfedObject wrote:

Both Rowboat Girlyman and Lion El'Waitandsee were conveniently absent from Terra.

The Dark Angels were mainly delayed because they were busy fighting the Night Lords.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Thramas_Crusade

That’s cute. So DA gets a pass due to their scuffle with the Night Lords, but the Ultramarines don’t get one for being ambushed at Calth, smacked around in the Shadow Crusade and then completely blocked from traversing the warp thanks to Lorgar’s warp storm?

Give me a break already.

Nope, Ultramarines don't get a pass. If they didn't get ambushed at Calth, how else could they be Mary Sue?

They're a lot more Mary Sue after the Heresy. Before the Heresy they were just a very well organised, efficient army led by a very very clever, but very stubborn Primarch.

And yeah, they should get a pass. Calth was devastating to them, then there was the Shadow Crusade where most of their worlds were destroyed and then the whole system was embroiled in a massive warpstorm of Lorgars orchestration. They couldn't go anywhere, or communicate.

Exactly. Take that away from them, and what other fluff is there to write about them? They have to be the underdogs.

And yeah, they should get a pass. Calth was devastating to them, then there was the Shadow Crusade where most of their worlds were destroyed and then the whole system was embroiled in a massive warpstorm of Lorgars orchestration. They couldn't go anywhere, or communicate.

Most of the ultramarines legion wasn't even on Calth.....

Yep. Lion could have taken his legion straight to Terra after his smacking around Curze. But hey, telling Guilliman to stick that pipe where the sun doesn’t shine was apparently more important to him than coming to his father’s aid.

Proof?

 Asherian Command wrote:

And yeah, they should get a pass. Calth was devastating to them, then there was the Shadow Crusade where most of their worlds were destroyed and then the whole system was embroiled in a massive warpstorm of Lorgars orchestration. They couldn't go anywhere, or communicate.

Most of the ultramarines legion wasn't even on Calth.....

Yep. Lion could have taken his legion straight to Terra after his smacking around Curze. But hey, telling Guilliman to stick that pipe where the sun doesn’t shine was apparently more important to him than coming to his father’s aid.

Proof?

Where was it then? It was either on Calth - Horus called for them to muster at Calth, in KNF it mentions that they have vastly too many marines for the mission they believed it was, and Guillaman says that Horus is flexing his new Warmaster muscle, and trying to build bridges between the WB and UM, hence why so many UM were there. The rest were through the rest of the worlds hit by the Shadow Crusade.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Redcruisair wrote:
Yep. Lion could have taken his legion straight to Terra after his smacking around Curze. But hey, telling Guilliman to stick that pipe where the sun doesn’t shine was apparently more important to him than coming to his father’s aid.

Evidence, or would you rather just provide conjecture?

Read Unremembered Empire.
The novel explains why the Ultramarines can’t leave their system and why the Lion goes out of his way to confront Guilliman, when he just as well could be doing other things.

You’re the only one making conjectures here friend. I guess that’s what blind hate does to ya.

 jreilly89 wrote:
Lion was actually pretty distraught that he didn't make it in time.

The Lion was not alone in showing up late and feeling distraught over it.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

And yeah, they should get a pass. Calth was devastating to them, then there was the Shadow Crusade where most of their worlds were destroyed and then the whole system was embroiled in a massive warpstorm of Lorgars orchestration. They couldn't go anywhere, or communicate.

Most of the ultramarines legion wasn't even on Calth.....

Yep. Lion could have taken his legion straight to Terra after his smacking around Curze. But hey, telling Guilliman to stick that pipe where the sun doesn’t shine was apparently more important to him than coming to his father’s aid.

Proof?

Where was it then? It was either on Calth - Horus called for them to muster at Calth, in KNF it mentions that they have vastly too many marines for the mission they believed it was, and Guillaman says that Horus is flexing his new Warmaster muscle, and trying to build bridges between the WB and UM, hence why so many UM were there. The rest were through the rest of the worlds hit by the Shadow Crusade.

The majority of the ultramarines were at ultramar. They were still mustering, they weren't all there at once. The ultramarines were mostly in space when the assualt came and they barely lost that many astartes in the battle because most of them were not there.

The Ultramarine fleet was still at ultramar according to the collect visions. the majority of the legion was holding multiple areas currently at that time period. The ultramarine fleet was massive and one that the wordbearers did not want to face the entire ultramarine fleet. The Fleet was only half of the Ultramarines fleet.

Read Unremembered Empire.
The novel explains why the Ultramarines can’t leave their system and why the Lion goes out of his way to confront Guilliman, when he just as well could be doing other things.

You’re the only one making conjectures here friend. I guess that’s what blind hate does to ya.

I did. Guess what it said. Gulliman had a special thing that allowed him to allow ships to warp there. If he had pointed it towards terra, The Dark Angels and many of the imperial fleets would of made it to terra, if it were not for the ultramarines using maccrage as a fleet beacon. If he had pointed it towards terra, the horus heresy would of been a sheer fire imperial victory.

The ultramarines instead decided to have it not point towards terra.

Remember they had a special beacon similar to the astronomicion.

The Lion was not alone in showing up late and feeling distraught over it.

The Space wolves did as well but... They felt quite sad that they were unable to get there. The majority of the dark angels were still fighting the Night Lords, and the Space Wolves were distracted by the Alpha Legion. The Ultramarines were not engaged in any conflict.

 Redcruisair wrote:
That’s cute. So DA gets a pass due to their scuffle with the Night Lords, but the Ultramarines don’t get one for being ambushed at Calth, smacked around in the Shadow Crusade and then completely blocked from traversing the warp thanks to Lorgar’s warp storm?

Give me a break already.

The only thing I said about the Ultramarines was that I didn't like how much space they take up in the SM codex and how you could fit lore for all the founding chapters if they weren't the poster boys. No need to get so worked up.

 jreilly89 wrote:
This. Exalted for lore truth.

 Redcruisair wrote:
Read Unremembered Empire.
The novel explains why the Ultramarines can’t leave their system and why the Lion goes out of his way to confront Guilliman, when he just as well could be doing other things.

I can't comment on Unremembered Empire because I didn't read it but people tend to forget the Heresy went on for seven years. That's plenty of time for all of them to get back to Terra but that would have meant leaving the rest of the Imperium undefended, which is why they got bogged down doing various things. The reason why the Dark Angels, Ultramarines, and Space Wolves didn't make it to Terra in time is because Horus planned for them to be delayed. Simply put, he played them.

Also, from what I know about Unremembered Empire, the Astronomican goes out and Gulliman assumes Terra has fallen, which is why tries to create a second empire to hold humanity together, correct? This is a time of great confusion so I'm guessing the Lion went to Ultramar because he was suspicious about Gulliman's motives, thinking it might be a blatant power grab to take advantage of the fall of Terra, which is why they crown Sanguinius the new Emperor as a compromise, correct? Sounds straightforward enough. Both were trying to do what they thought was best for humanity while still staying loyal to the Emperor. They were played by Horus and let their mutual suspicions get the better of them, simple as that.

 Asherian Command wrote:
Most of the ultramarines legion wasn't even on Calth.....

They had roughly 200,000 Ultramarines stationed on Calth... and over half them died to the Word Bearer's ambush.

can't comment on Unremembered Empire because I didn't read it but people tend to forget the Heresy went on for seven years. That's plenty of time for all of them to get back to Terra but that would have meant leaving the rest of the Imperium undefended, which is why they got bogged down doing various things. The reason why the Dark Angels, Ultramarines, and Space Wolves didn't make it to Terra in time is because Horus planned for them to be delayed. Simply put, he played them.

Also, from what I know about Unremembered Empire, the Astronomican goes out and Gulliman assumes Terra has fallen, which is why tries to create a second empire to hold humanity together, correct? This is a time of great confusion so I'm guessing the Lion went to Ultramar because he was suspicious about Gulliman's motives, thinking it might be a blatant power grab to take advantage of the fall of Terra, which is why they crown Sanguinius the new Emperor as a compromise, correct? Sounds straightforward enough. Both were trying to do what they thought was best for humanity while still staying loyal to the Emperor. They were played by Horus and let their mutual suspicions get the better of them, simple as that.

I agree with that, I mean I just hate the ultramarines post-heresy. And I always found that Gulliman always had a motive and always planned ahead.

They had roughly 200,000 Ultramarines stationed on Calth... and over half them died to the Word Bearer's ambush.

I had to check that and apparently the black library expanded on it, and forgot about the second founding :/

Yup, that still leaves, 50,000 other Ultramarines.

Guess what you could of done.... You could of sent half your legion to terra with the blood angels. Well what do you know.

There is also conflicts with the canon as the canon says the ultramarines didn't lose that much. I mean they were attacked at calth. But it says in certain parts they didn'.

 Asherian Command wrote:
I did. Guess what it said. Gulliman had a special thing that allowed him to allow ships to warp there. If he had pointed it towards terra, The Dark Angels and many of the imperial fleets would of made it to terra, if it were not for the ultramarines using maccrage as a fleet beacon. If he had pointed it towards terra, the horus heresy would of been a sheer fire imperial victory.

The ultramarines instead decided to have it not point towards terra.

Remember they had a special beacon similar to the astronomicion.

So he should guide the scattered fleets towards Terra so that Horus superior fleet could intercept and eradicate them piece by piece? What an ingenious idea!

Guilliman did the right thing under the right circumstances. Consolidate your forces and then wait for reliable information to come your way. Once you have a clear picture of the situation you act.

 Asherian Command wrote:

can't comment on Unremembered Empire because I didn't read it but people tend to forget the Heresy went on for seven years. That's plenty of time for all of them to get back to Terra but that would have meant leaving the rest of the Imperium undefended, which is why they got bogged down doing various things. The reason why the Dark Angels, Ultramarines, and Space Wolves didn't make it to Terra in time is because Horus planned for them to be delayed. Simply put, he played them.

Also, from what I know about Unremembered Empire, the Astronomican goes out and Gulliman assumes Terra has fallen, which is why tries to create a second empire to hold humanity together, correct? This is a time of great confusion so I'm guessing the Lion went to Ultramar because he was suspicious about Gulliman's motives, thinking it might be a blatant power grab to take advantage of the fall of Terra, which is why they crown Sanguinius the new Emperor as a compromise, correct? Sounds straightforward enough. Both were trying to do what they thought was best for humanity while still staying loyal to the Emperor. They were played by Horus and let their mutual suspicions get the better of them, simple as that.

I agree with that, I mean I just hate the ultramarines post-heresy. And I always found that Gulliman always had a motive and always planned ahead.

Yea, I'm not really a Ultramarines fan either but I think how the Primarchs are portrayed really just depends on the author. There's no real consistency. For example, the Lion uncharacteristically flips out and smacks an important character's head off for no good reason, kinda ruining a story that was building up for a while. But then if the Primarchs were all black and white then they'd be one dimensional and boring. So while both primarchs were doing what they thought was best for humanity, they probably also had some ulterior motives. The head smacking thing is still stupid though. Can't get over it and I didn't even read that story...

 Redcruisair wrote:
So he should guide the scattered fleets towards Terra so that Horus superior fleet could intercept and eradicate them piece by piece? What an ingenious idea!

Guilliman did the right thing under the right circumstances. Consolidate your forces and then wait for reliable information to come your way. Once you have a clear picture of the situation you act.

The right thing to do would probably have been to team up with the Dark Angels and whoever else was there at the time and set course for Terra. But yea, there was a great deal of confusion and nobody was sure what to do.

So he should guide the scattered fleets towards Terra so that Horus superior fleet could intercept and eradicate them piece by piece? What an ingenious idea!

Guilliman did the right thing under the right circumstances. Consolidate your forces and then wait for reliable information to come your way. Once you have a clear picture of the situation you act.

Umm The blood angels got there and deployed on the surface. With both the ultramarines and the blood angel, imperial fists fleets all together. They would of beat them.

They were not as superior as you would think.

The Ultramarines would of aided on the battle below and they would of been able to defeat the other foes quite easily.

The right thing to do would probably have been to team up with the Dark Angels and whoever else was there at the time and set course for Terra. But yea, there was a great deal of confusion and nobody was sure what to do.

Basically.

Its one of the reasons that I often dislike the fanboyism for the Ultramarines.

But the Lion made the same mistake then..?

 ImAGeek wrote:
But the Lion made the same mistake then..?

Huh? Yea, they both let their mutual suspicious get the better of them. Did you read my previous post? Neither of them got there in time so they're equally at fault. At the same time they both stayed loyal.

 ImAGeek wrote:
But the Lion made the same mistake then..?

The lion was engaged by the Night Lords, They also lacked half the legion and had sustained losses. The Ultramarines were still half a legion strong. The Dark Angels did not have that luxury.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
But the Lion made the same mistake then..?

Huh? Yea, they both let their mutual suspicious get the better of them. Did you read my previous post? Neither of them got there in time so they're equally at fault. At the same time they both stayed loyal.

Agreed again.

EngulfedObject wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
But the Lion made the same mistake then..?

Huh? Yea, they both let their mutual suspicious get the better of them. Did you read my previous post? Neither of them got there in time so they're equally at fault. At the same time they both stayed loyal.

Yeah that was aimed at Asherian Command who said that's the reason he hates UM fanboyism. My point being, Both the Lion and Guillaman made the same mistake so it's a bit hypocritical to hate one and not the other.

Asherian Command wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
But the Lion made the same mistake then..?

The lion was engaged by the Night Lords, They also lacked half the legion and had sustained losses. The Ultramarines were still half a legion strong. The Dark Angels did not have that luxury.

The Lion wasn't engaged with the NL then, because he was at Imperium Secundus with Guillaman... And both the UM and DA suffered half a legion loss... How come with the Lion it's 'lacked half a legion' but with Guillaman its 'Half a legion strong'? Both had sustained massive losses. Either they both get to use the excuse, or neither do.

The Lion wasn't engaged with the NL then, because he was at Imperium Secundus with Guillaman... And both the UM and DA suffered half a legion loss... How come with the Lion it's 'lacked half a legion' but with Guillaman its 'Half a legion strong'? Both had sustained massive losses. Either they both get to use the excuse, or neither do.

Question.

How many Dark Angels are there in his legion? 150,000.

How many are there in the Ultramarines. 250,000.

Who was more combat ready? The Ultramarines. Who was extremely under strength. The Dark Angels.

 Asherian Command wrote:
Umm The blood angels got there and deployed on the surface. With both the ultramarines and the blood angel, imperial fists fleets all together. They would of beat them.

They were not as superior as you would think.

I’m not overestimating anything. These are the guys that tore the Solar Battlefleet apart while the latter had support from the Phalanx, BA and WC’s respective fleets and the fortress on the moon.

All of that was just a cakewalk to Horus.

 Asherian Command wrote:

The Lion wasn't engaged with the NL then, because he was at Imperium Secundus with Guillaman... And both the UM and DA suffered half a legion loss... How come with the Lion it's 'lacked half a legion' but with Guillaman its 'Half a legion strong'? Both had sustained massive losses. Either they both get to use the excuse, or neither do.

Question.

How many Dark Angels are there in his legion? 150,000.

How many are there in the Ultramarines. 250,000.

Who was more combat ready? The Ultramarines. Who was extremely under strength. The Dark Angels.

They were both extremely under strength, they were both reeling from their losses, they were both confused. They were equally combat ready. 75,000 marines is still a big deal. If the Lions excuse is they'd lost half their warriors, they still have 75,000(!) marines, which would've been a big deal at the battle of Terra.

The Ultramarines lost over 100,000 space marines at Calth (loses from the underground war not included.)

The rest of the Ultramarine legion were mauled by Angron and Lorgar’s shadow crusade.

To say they were at full strength is just, well, a complete lie and nothing more.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

The Lion wasn't engaged with the NL then, because he was at Imperium Secundus with Guillaman... And both the UM and DA suffered half a legion loss... How come with the Lion it's 'lacked half a legion' but with Guillaman its 'Half a legion strong'? Both had sustained massive losses. Either they both get to use the excuse, or neither do.

Question.

How many Dark Angels are there in his legion? 150,000.

How many are there in the Ultramarines. 250,000.

Who was more combat ready? The Ultramarines. Who was extremely under strength. The Dark Angels.

They were both extremely under strength, they were both reeling from their losses, they were both confused. They were equally combat ready. 75,000 marines is still a big deal. If the Lions excuse is they'd lost half their warriors, they still have 75,000(!) marines, which would've been a big deal at the battle of Terra.

You also have to factor that half the chapter was also still away from the main Dark Angels legion, and the fact they had just come back from a crusade in the Eastern Fringe.

To say they were at full strength is just, well, a complete lie and nothing more.

Now you are just making stuff up. I did not say that. They were at normal legion strength.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

The Lion wasn't engaged with the NL then, because he was at Imperium Secundus with Guillaman... And both the UM and DA suffered half a legion loss... How come with the Lion it's 'lacked half a legion' but with Guillaman its 'Half a legion strong'? Both had sustained massive losses. Either they both get to use the excuse, or neither do.

Question.

How many Dark Angels are there in his legion? 150,000.

How many are there in the Ultramarines. 250,000.

Who was more combat ready? The Ultramarines. Who was extremely under strength. The Dark Angels.

They were both extremely under strength, they were both reeling from their losses, they were both confused. They were equally combat ready. 75,000 marines is still a big deal. If the Lions excuse is they'd lost half their warriors, they still have 75,000(!) marines, which would've been a big deal at the battle of Terra.

You also have to factor that half the chapter was also still away from the main Dark Angels legion, and the fact they had just come back from a crusade in the Eastern Fringe.

To say they were at full strength is just, well, a complete lie and nothing more.

Now you are just making stuff up. I did not say that. They were at normal legion strength.

And you have to factor in that almost half Guillimans legion was crushed in a brutal, bitter surprise attack from his brother, and then had his 500 worlds he'd spent his life building systematically burned by two traitor legions...

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

The Lion wasn't engaged with the NL then, because he was at Imperium Secundus with Guillaman... And both the UM and DA suffered half a legion loss... How come with the Lion it's 'lacked half a legion' but with Guillaman its 'Half a legion strong'? Both had sustained massive losses. Either they both get to use the excuse, or neither do.

Question.

How many Dark Angels are there in his legion? 150,000.

How many are there in the Ultramarines. 250,000.

Who was more combat ready? The Ultramarines. Who was extremely under strength. The Dark Angels.

They were both extremely under strength, they were both reeling from their losses, they were both confused. They were equally combat ready. 75,000 marines is still a big deal. If the Lions excuse is they'd lost half their warriors, they still have 75,000(!) marines, which would've been a big deal at the battle of Terra.

You also have to factor that half the chapter was also still away from the main Dark Angels legion, and the fact they had just come back from a crusade in the Eastern Fringe.

To say they were at full strength is just, well, a complete lie and nothing more.

Now you are just making stuff up. I did not say that. They were at normal legion strength.

And you have to factor in that almost half Guillimans legion was crushed in a brutal, bitter surprise attack from his brother, and then had his 500 worlds he'd spent his life building systematically burned by two traitor legions...

? What now you are just getting into sematics. The legion was ready to fight the biggest fault is they never made it to terra.

And equally, The Lion never made it to Terra. You can't hate one for not, and not hate the other for not. The Lion was literally with Guillaman, so he was equally placed to reach Terra. Even if just he was there without half his men, that would have helped.

 ImAGeek wrote:
And equally, The Lion never made it to Terra. You can't hate one for not, and not hate the other for not. The Lion was literally with Guillaman, so he was equally placed to reach Terra. Even if just he was there without half his men, that would have helped.

True. But It doesn't mean that the Dark Angels would of been more help. Horus Feared the Ultramarines and their fleets.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
And equally, The Lion never made it to Terra. You can't hate one for not, and not hate the other for not. The Lion was literally with Guillaman, so he was equally placed to reach Terra. Even if just he was there without half his men, that would have helped.

True. But It doesn't mean that the Dark Angels would of been more help. Horus Feared the Ultramarines and their fleets.

Horus feared everyone, that's why he had everyone tied up instead of on Terra. The Warpstorms around Macragge were his (well Lorgars) doing, hence why Guillaman had no idea what was going on. That's why the Night Lords were fighting the DA, to keep them from Terra. But the Lion got as far as Imperium Secundus, at which point he was equally poised as Guillaman to get to Terra.

My point isn't that it's all the Lions fault, or Guillaman didn't make any mistakes. It's just that, to hate Guilliman for not getting to Terra, but have nothing but praise for the Lion who was equally able/unable to, is a tad hypocritical mistakes were made on both parts.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
And equally, The Lion never made it to Terra. You can't hate one for not, and not hate the other for not. The Lion was literally with Guillaman, so he was equally placed to reach Terra. Even if just he was there without half his men, that would have helped.

True. But It doesn't mean that the Dark Angels would of been more help. Horus Feared the Ultramarines and their fleets.

Horus feared everyone, that's why he had everyone tied up instead of on Terra. The Warpstorms around Macragge were his (well Lorgars) doing, hence why Guillaman had no idea what was going on. That's why the Night Lords were fighting the DA, to keep them from Terra. But the Lion got as far as Imperium Secundus, at which point he was equally poised as Guillaman to get to Terra.

My point isn't that it's all the Lions fault, or Guillaman didn't make any mistakes. It's just that, to hate Guilliman for not getting to Terra, but have nothing but praise for the Lion who was equally able/unable to, is a tad hypocritical mistakes were made on both parts.

No I hate Guillaman for other reasons. The main reasoning being he was such an asshat to begin with that he caused many of his brothers to go traitor in the first place.

Haha, I don't think that was Guillimans fault...

Like me though, I hate the Lion for other reasons, primarily I just find him boring.

 ImAGeek wrote:
Haha, I don't think that was Guillimans fault...

Like me though, I hate the Lion for other reasons, primarily I just find him boring.

How. I mean the guy hunted Night Haunter by himself. The guy doesn't want his soldiers to die meaningless deaths. He felt like it was his responsibilty for letting that monster live for so long.

No Primarchs (maybe Perturabo) wanted their soldiers to die meaningless deaths, that's hardly unique to the Lion.

OK, now, a few points to make here:
1.) The Lion wanted to be Warmaster and had even started gathering the support of other Legions during the Horus Heresy (see: Fallen Angels) he even gave one of the Traitor Legions the most powerful Super heavy Tanks ever created - each one had the power of an Imperator Titan, and the Lion gave Perurabo SIX of them in exchange for Perturabo supporting him in becoming Warmaster (this was before Istvaan)
2.) Girlyman may or may not have been making a bid for power, but the fact of the matter is that he and the Lion had a combined strength of AT LEAST 175,000 battle-ready Astartes - enough to utterly destroy the Traitors when combined with the BA forces that they sent to Terra.
3.) Both the DA and the UM had concluded their respective conflicts and were gathered at Imperium Secundus. And though the DA did not have the whole of their forces gathered at Ultramar, they still had a sizable force that could have turned the tide at the Battle of Terra.

 ImAGeek wrote:
No Primarchs (maybe Perturabo) wanted their soldiers to die meaningless deaths, that's hardly unique to the Lion.

Huh?
Perturabo?
What a load of horsecrap.
Source?

Khonsu wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
No Primarchs (maybe Perturabo) wanted their soldiers to die meaningless deaths, that's hardly unique to the Lion.

Huh?
Perturabo?
What a load of horsecrap.
Source?

Erm, Extermination by FW, he had one tenth of his legion beaten to death by the rest of the Legionnaires when he assumed command of the Iron Warriors, because they weren't the best legion.

 ImAGeek wrote:

Khonsu wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
No Primarchs (maybe Perturabo) wanted their soldiers to die meaningless deaths, that's hardly unique to the Lion.

Huh?
Perturabo?
What a load of horsecrap.
Source?

Erm, Extermination by FW, he had one tenth of his legion beaten to death by the rest of the Legionnaires when he assumed command of the Iron Warriors, because they weren't the best legion.

The Ironwarriors were Jerks in General.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

Khonsu wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
No Primarchs (maybe Perturabo) wanted their soldiers to die meaningless deaths, that's hardly unique to the Lion.

Huh?
Perturabo?
What a load of horsecrap.
Source?

Erm, Extermination by FW, he had one tenth of his legion beaten to death by the rest of the Legionnaires when he assumed command of the Iron Warriors, because they weren't the best legion.

The Ironwarriors were Jerks in General.

Eh. They did the dirty work no other legion would do. I have a lot of respect for the IW and even Perturabo, I really like his character.

There must be one legion/Primarch we agree on...

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

Khonsu wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
No Primarchs (maybe Perturabo) wanted their soldiers to die meaningless deaths, that's hardly unique to the Lion.

Huh?
Perturabo?
What a load of horsecrap.
Source?

Erm, Extermination by FW, he had one tenth of his legion beaten to death by the rest of the Legionnaires when he assumed command of the Iron Warriors, because they weren't the best legion.

The Ironwarriors were Jerks in General.

Eh. They did the dirty work no other legion would do. I have a lot of respect for the IW and even Perturabo, I really like his character.

There must be one legion/Primarch we agree on...

Well I dislike many of the Legions for being dumbasses. And Think Magnus was an idiot, I thought that the Thousand sons got boned and that Magnus should of been arrested and his sons spared.

Magnus was an idiot, I don't like Magnus. The Thousand Sons are okay I've just never been a fan of magic, in games where you pick classes I always stay away from mages and stuff. Not sure why. I don't use psykers in 40k either. So they are cool but I don't like them as much as I could because of that.

 Asherian Command wrote:
No I hate Guillaman for other reasons. The main reasoning being he was such an asshat to begin with that he caused many of his brothers to go traitor in the first place.

What did he do to make some his brothers to go traitor and unleash a tidal wave of death and destruction upon the Imperium?

No please do go ahead and tell me, I’m all ears.

 Redcruisair wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
No I hate Guillaman for other reasons. The main reasoning being he was such an asshat to begin with that he caused many of his brothers to go traitor in the first place.

What did he do to make some his brothers to go traitor and unleash a tidal wave of death and destruction upon the Imperium?

No please do go ahead and tell me, I’m all ears.

Alpharius for starters. Alpharius was told how stupid his tactics were by Guilliman come on man that is common knowledge.

Guilliman was the least liked among the primarchs.

 Redcruisair wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
No I hate Guillaman for other reasons. The main reasoning being he was such an asshat to begin with that he caused many of his brothers to go traitor in the first place.

What did he do to make some his brothers to go traitor and unleash a tidal wave of death and destruction upon the Imperium?

No please do go ahead and tell me, I’m all ears.

He didn't waste time with stupid games and was overall better than most of them

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Redcruisair wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
No I hate Guillaman for other reasons. The main reasoning being he was such an asshat to begin with that he caused many of his brothers to go traitor in the first place.

What did he do to make some his brothers to go traitor and unleash a tidal wave of death and destruction upon the Imperium?

No please do go ahead and tell me, I’m all ears.

Alpharius for starters. Alpharius was told how stupid his tactics were by Guilliman come on man that is common knowledge.

Guilliman was the least liked among the primarchs.

That is not at all why Alpharius turned traitor though.

I'm almost certain other Primarchs were more disliked. Lorgar springs to mind. Curze. Even Alpharius didn't get on with the others.

That is not at all why Alpharius turned traitor though.

I'm almost certain other Primarchs were more disliked. Lorgar springs to mind. Curze. Even Alpharius didn't get on with the others.

Its one of the major reasons why. Alpharius hated Guilliman.

Plus Alpharius had it rough because he was the last primarch to be found.

 Asherian Command wrote:
Alpharius for starters. Alpharius was told how stupid his tactics were by Guilliman come on man that is common knowledge.

That tells me more about Aplharius issues than Guilliman’s. Alpharius is basically whiny spoiled kid that ran to daddy Horus when the big nasty bully was mean to him, Boo Hoo.

If you honestly believe that having your tactics Rightly criticized is grave enough of an offence to commit treason and genocide on a galactic scale, then I don’t know what to tell you.

 Asherian Command wrote:
Guilliman was the least liked among the primarchs.

Are you kidding me? Does the name Angron, Curze and Lorgar ring any bells with you?

Also theres a difference between being disliked and just not liked.

Are you kidding me? Does the name Angron, Curze and Lorgar ring any bells with you?

Also theres a difference between being disliked and just not liked.

Funny you say that Lorgar was liked by Magnus, Horus, and even Sangunius.

No one liked Angron. So you might be right. In fact I really want him to experience a true death.

KingDeath wrote:

 Redcruisair wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
No I hate Guillaman for other reasons. The main reasoning being he was such an asshat to begin with that he caused many of his brothers to go traitor in the first place.

What did he do to make some his brothers to go traitor and unleash a tidal wave of death and destruction upon the Imperium?

No please do go ahead and tell me, I’m all ears.

He didn't waste time with stupid games and was overall better than most of them

Well, that’s true. He was indeed better than most of them.

 Asherian Command wrote:

Are you kidding me? Does the name Angron, Curze and Lorgar ring any bells with you?

Also theres a difference between being disliked and just not liked.

Funny you say that Lorgar was liked by Magnus, Horus, and even Sangunius.

No one liked Angron. So you might be right. In fact I really want him to experience a true death.

I thought Perturabo and Angron were relatively close at least when compared to the relationship that Angron had with his other brothers

 Asherian Command wrote:

That is not at all why Alpharius turned traitor though.

I'm almost certain other Primarchs were more disliked. Lorgar springs to mind. Curze. Even Alpharius didn't get on with the others.

Its one of the major reasons why. Alpharius hated Guilliman.

Plus Alpharius had it rough because he was the last primarch to be found.

Have you read Legion? Because that's not at all why Alpharius turned traitor.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 King Pariah wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

Are you kidding me? Does the name Angron, Curze and Lorgar ring any bells with you?

Also theres a difference between being disliked and just not liked.

Funny you say that Lorgar was liked by Magnus, Horus, and even Sangunius.

No one liked Angron. So you might be right. In fact I really want him to experience a true death.

I thought Perturabo and Angron were relatively close at least when compared to the relationship that Angron had with his other brothers

I've not read anything about them being close, or even them mentioned together. Could be right, where did you read that?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Redcruisair wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
Alpharius for starters. Alpharius was told how stupid his tactics were by Guilliman come on man that is common knowledge.

That tells me more about Aplharius issues than Guilliman’s. Alpharius is basically whiny spoiled kid that ran to daddy Horus when the big nasty bully was mean to him, Boo Hoo.

If you honestly believe that having your tactics Rightly criticized is grave enough of an offence to commit treason and genocide on a galactic scale, then I don’t know what to tell you.

To be fair... I don't think Guillamans criticisms of Alpharius were right. Alpharius got results, he definitely got the job done, just non traditionally. Guilliman was just being stubborn and basically 'my way is right, your way is wrong'.

 Asherian Command wrote:
Funny you say that Lorgar was liked by Magnus, Horus, and even Sangunius.

Of those three only Magnus was a friend to him. Horus was nice to him for political reasons and Sanguinuis was always respectful to the other primarchs.

Guilliman was great friends and allies with Sanguinius, Manus, Dorn and hell even Russ for crying out loud. The news of the death of Manus hurt him especially so.

Guilliman was not disliked by his brothers. Sure some where distrustful of his motives yes, but nobody loathed the guy to the same degree they did with Lorgar and the other misfit primarchs.
In fact Alpharius was disliked more by his brethren than Guilliman was.

 Asherian Command wrote:
No one liked Angron. So you might be right. In fact I really want him to experience a true death.

I concur fully with that statement.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ImAGeek wrote:
To be fair... I don't think Guillamans criticisms of Alpharius were right. Alpharius got results, he definitely got the job done, just non traditionally. Guilliman was just being stubborn and basically 'my way is right, your way is wrong'.

In a sense the critics were right. Alpharuis was often criticized for working at snail’s pace. His tactics worked and often saved manpower, but ask yourself this: did the legions really need to conserve their manpower?
The World Eaters and Iron Warriors went balls to the walls and still got the job. Why waste time on fancy and time consuming tactics when you could just use the conventional war methods, take the losses and then move on?

Vulken because if I had them as brothers with the exception of maybe sanguinis (because everyone loves him for good reason) id hate them all.

But he doesn't it during the crusade he seems to try and like them all even the ones like ferrus and dorn who were hard to get along with.

gilamonster wrote:
Vulken because if I had them as brothers with the exception of maybe sanguinis (because everyone loves him for good reason) id hate them all.

But he doesn't it during the crusade he seems to try and like them all even the ones like ferrus and dorn who were hard to get along with.

Puts on SS Grammar Hat

Vulkan because he is the most brotherly except for Sangunius. (Everyone Loves Sanguinius). Basically I hate all of them.

But during the crusade he is not very brotherly. I like them all, Ferrus and dorn, yet those two had a hard time getting along.

Lulz wut?

Why is there no Omegon? I'm sure there are some Omegon fans out there.

Technically after the Heresy, but I find it hilarious no one believes Guilliman slayed Alpharius. That and the fact that Fulgrim poisoned him.

 jreilly89 wrote:
Technically after the Heresy, but I find it hilarious no one believes Guilliman slayed Alpharius. That and the fact that Fulgrim poisoned him.

Well, I think most of us do, but there are two primarchs to the Alpha Legion. Ergo, theres still one of them, be it Alpharius or Omegon (Oh who even knows whos who anymore) floating around.

On a separate note, frankly, Im a little dissapointed Dakka. Fulgrim at 3 percent? 3 percent?

 Jollydevil wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
Technically after the Heresy, but I find it hilarious no one believes Guilliman slayed Alpharius. That and the fact that Fulgrim poisoned him.

Well, I think most of us do, but there are two primarchs to the Alpha Legion. Ergo, theres still one of them, be it Alpharius or Omegon (Oh who even knows whos who anymore) floating around.

On a separate note, frankly, Im a little dissapointed Dakka. Fulgrim at 3 percent? 3 percent?

Fulgrim is a terrible Primarch, just an awful character really. 3% is far too high

Yeah honestly the only cool thing fulcrum did was choke out the avatar

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Jollydevil wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
Technically after the Heresy, but I find it hilarious no one believes Guilliman slayed Alpharius. That and the fact that Fulgrim poisoned him.

Well, I think most of us do, but there are two primarchs to the Alpha Legion. Ergo, theres still one of them, be it Alpharius or Omegon (Oh who even knows whos who anymore) floating around.

On a separate note, frankly, Im a little dissapointed Dakka. Fulgrim at 3 percent? 3 percent?

Fulgrim is a terrible Primarch, just an awful character really. 3% is far too high

Fulgrim before the Heresy Series was cool imo, what little fluff we had on him at least, and he was my favourite Primarch. Now, ugh ...

SirSertile wrote:
Why is there no Omegon? I'm sure there are some Omegon fans out there.

Wouldn't that just split the Alpharius votes? And they are all Alpharius. Or they are all Omegon.

And I see the Lion is making a comeback. Just as planned...

ImAGeek wrote:

 Jollydevil wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
Technically after the Heresy, but I find it hilarious no one believes Guilliman slayed Alpharius. That and the fact that Fulgrim poisoned him.

Well, I think most of us do, but there are two primarchs to the Alpha Legion. Ergo, theres still one of them, be it Alpharius or Omegon (Oh who even knows whos who anymore) floating around.

On a separate note, frankly, Im a little dissapointed Dakka. Fulgrim at 3 percent? 3 percent?

Fulgrim is a terrible Primarch, just an awful character really. 3% is far too high

theemporerprotectsnone wrote:Yeah honestly the only cool thing fulcrum did was choke out the avatar

Pilau Rice wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Jollydevil wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
Technically after the Heresy, but I find it hilarious no one believes Guilliman slayed Alpharius. That and the fact that Fulgrim poisoned him.

Well, I think most of us do, but there are two primarchs to the Alpha Legion. Ergo, theres still one of them, be it Alpharius or Omegon (Oh who even knows whos who anymore) floating around.

On a separate note, frankly, Im a little dissapointed Dakka. Fulgrim at 3 percent? 3 percent?

Fulgrim is a terrible Primarch, just an awful character really. 3% is far too high

Fulgrim before the Heresy Series was cool imo, what little fluff we had on him at least, and he was my favourite Primarch. Now, ugh ...

IMHO I thought Fulgrim was fleshed out really well in the book. Hes essentially an egocentric maniac defiled by slaanesh. I especially liked how well you could see him slowly becoming insane, to the climax of the chaos at La Fenice.
Sure, hes a bit of a jerk, but it certainly gives him charachter, at least more so than the "Watch me be almighty" Rogal Dorn (and many of the other primarchs who I think act the same way).
But thats just my opinion, and why Fulgrim is definitely my favorite of the list.

I think Fulgrim was actually written quite well. I actually started to hate him!

Why Is that selfish bastard the lion so high? Sanguinius is undisputedly the best Primarchs. He's a beast in CC, he's a badass angel with wings, he's an untrained Psyker, he's the first Imperial Farseer, what's not to love?

 dusara217 wrote:
Why Is that selfish bastard the lion so high? Sanguinius is undisputedly the best Primarchs. He's a beast in CC, he's a badass angel with wings, he's an untrained Psyker, he's the first Imperial Farseer, what's not to love?

'cause he's the third best Primarch. The top three of awesome Primarchs is clearly
1) Perturabo
2) Ferrus Manus
3) The Lion

 Jollydevil wrote:

IMHO I thought Fulgrim was fleshed out really well in the book. Hes essentially an egocentric maniac defiled by slaanesh. I especially liked how well you could see him slowly becoming insane, to the climax of the chaos at La Fenice.
Sure, hes a bit of a jerk, but it certainly gives him charachter, at least more so than the "Watch me be almighty" Rogal Dorn (and many of the other primarchs who I think act the same way).
But thats just my opinion, and why Fulgrim is definitely my favorite of the list.

See, I was never a fan of Rogal Dorn, but the Heresy has made the Stone Man my favourite.

I get what you are saying about Fulgrim, he is written well, I just think they took him down the wrong path. I think if they had made him less of a cock it would have been better and his fall that more tragic. What with the possession story as well, which I think wasn't needed.

 Jollydevil wrote:
dfb1d645a5dcb80a5756c7.png]
IMHO I thought Fulgrim was fleshed out really well in the book. Hes essentially an egocentric maniac defiled by slaanesh. I especially liked how well you could see him slowly becoming insane, to the climax of the chaos at La Fenice.
Sure, hes a bit of a jerk, but it certainly gives him charachter, at least more so than the "Watch me be almighty" Rogal Dorn (and many of the other primarchs who I think act the same way).
But thats just my opinion, and why Fulgrim is definitely my favorite of the list.

I think it would have been much much better if he wasn't so much of an arse to start with. His fall would've had more weight to it then but the way it's written it just seems so obvious, he basically starts half way there.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Jollydevil wrote:

IMHO I thought Fulgrim was fleshed out really well in the book. Hes essentially an egocentric maniac defiled by slaanesh. I especially liked how well you could see him slowly becoming insane, to the climax of the chaos at La Fenice.
Sure, hes a bit of a jerk, but it certainly gives him charachter, at least more so than the "Watch me be almighty" Rogal Dorn (and many of the other primarchs who I think act the same way).
But thats just my opinion, and why Fulgrim is definitely my favorite of the list.

See, I was never a fan of Rogal Dorn, but the Heresy has made the Stone Man my favourite.

I get what you are saying about Fulgrim, he is written well, I just think they took him down the right path. I think if they had made him less of a cock it would have been better and his fall that more tragic. What with the possession story as well, which I think wasn't needed.

Overall Fulgrim was a good leader. He was plenty inspiring, led by example, etc etc. I respect the fact that he didnt just care about war either, but was a huge patron of the arts.
Personally, I like the fact that chaos was able to grab hold of the thin string of flaw he had (arrogance, pride, etc), and basically pull harder and harder until he finally unravelled. Because, in the beginning, Fulgrim wasnt really that bad of a guy. However, he kind of had to have that cock like quality to make it happen.

magnus, because he tried so hard to be good, but zeentch was being a butt, poor guy. also I tend to dislike lion because the edgy marines

 dusara217 wrote:
Why Is that selfish bastard the lion so high? Sanguinius is undisputedly the best Primarchs. He's a beast in CC, he's a badass angel with wings, he's an untrained Psyker, he's the first Imperial Farseer, what's not to love?

Cuz he's dead

Definitely Vulkan.
Just read his emergence story. Nocturne was pillaged and enslaved by dark eldar raiders every year, so everyone used to hide. Vulkan however thought screw this and stands with two blacksmiths hammers in the courtyard. He then proceeds to hammer time over a 100 said raiders with hammers.

its also cool that Vulkan is the largest and the strongest of all the primarchs and is capable of overturning Space Marine battle tanks with his bare hands . He is said to be as tall in his power armor as Horus is in his own, much larger Terminator armor. He is also a bit of a mastermind and deeply cares about humans and his legion, unlike SOME primarchs. I guess being a perpertual is a little cool as well.

 redrooster148 wrote:
Definitely Vulkan.
Just read his emergence story. Nocturne was pillaged and enslaved by dark eldar raiders every year, so everyone used to hide. Vulkan however thought screw this and stands with two blacksmiths hammers in the courtyard. He then proceeds to hammer time over a 100 said raiders with hammers.

its also cool that Vulkan is the largest and the strongest of all the primarchs and is capable of overturning Space Marine battle tanks with his bare hands . He is said to be as tall in his power armor as Horus is in his own, much larger Terminator armor. He is also a bit of a mastermind and deeply cares about humans and his legion, unlike SOME primarchs. I guess being a perpertual is a little cool as well.

Is it just me or would Vulkan have been just shot in the face repeatedly if that were actually true?

 dusara217 wrote:

 redrooster148 wrote:
Definitely Vulkan.
Just read his emergence story. Nocturne was pillaged and enslaved by dark eldar raiders every year, so everyone used to hide. Vulkan however thought screw this and stands with two blacksmiths hammers in the courtyard. He then proceeds to hammer time over a 100 said raiders with hammers.

its also cool that Vulkan is the largest and the strongest of all the primarchs and is capable of overturning Space Marine battle tanks with his bare hands . He is said to be as tall in his power armor as Horus is in his own, much larger Terminator armor. He is also a bit of a mastermind and deeply cares about humans and his legion, unlike SOME primarchs. I guess being a perpertual is a little cool as well.

Is it just me or would Vulkan have been just shot in the face repeatedly if that were actually true?

The Dark Eldar probably would have seen a grand prize for their gladiator arenas rather than an actual foe, so its feasible that they didn't just continually shoot him and instead closed the distance hoping to subdue him.

 dusara217 wrote:

 redrooster148 wrote:
Definitely Vulkan.
Just read his emergence story. Nocturne was pillaged and enslaved by dark eldar raiders every year, so everyone used to hide. Vulkan however thought screw this and stands with two blacksmiths hammers in the courtyard. He then proceeds to hammer time over a 100 said raiders with hammers.

its also cool that Vulkan is the largest and the strongest of all the primarchs and is capable of overturning Space Marine battle tanks with his bare hands . He is said to be as tall in his power armor as Horus is in his own, much larger Terminator armor. He is also a bit of a mastermind and deeply cares about humans and his legion, unlike SOME primarchs. I guess being a perpertual is a little cool as well.

Is it just me or would Vulkan have been just shot in the face repeatedly if that were actually true?

It is true. Vulkan had mustered some local townspeople to fight with him but on several sources it says Vulkan killed well over 100 raiders with his blacksmithing hammers alone

 redrooster148 wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

 redrooster148 wrote:
Definitely Vulkan.
Just read his emergence story. Nocturne was pillaged and enslaved by dark eldar raiders every year, so everyone used to hide. Vulkan however thought screw this and stands with two blacksmiths hammers in the courtyard. He then proceeds to hammer time over a 100 said raiders with hammers.

its also cool that Vulkan is the largest and the strongest of all the primarchs and is capable of overturning Space Marine battle tanks with his bare hands . He is said to be as tall in his power armor as Horus is in his own, much larger Terminator armor. He is also a bit of a mastermind and deeply cares about humans and his legion, unlike SOME primarchs. I guess being a perpertual is a little cool as well.

Is it just me or would Vulkan have been just shot in the face repeatedly if that were actually true?

It is true. Vulkan had mustered some local townspeople to fight with him but on several sources it says Vulkan killed well over 100 raiders with his blacksmithing hammers alone

Ahem, I think you're mistaken. Vulkan clearly had plothammers

 jreilly89 wrote:

 redrooster148 wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

 redrooster148 wrote:
Definitely Vulkan.
Just read his emergence story. Nocturne was pillaged and enslaved by dark eldar raiders every year, so everyone used to hide. Vulkan however thought screw this and stands with two blacksmiths hammers in the courtyard. He then proceeds to hammer time over a 100 said raiders with hammers.

its also cool that Vulkan is the largest and the strongest of all the primarchs and is capable of overturning Space Marine battle tanks with his bare hands . He is said to be as tall in his power armor as Horus is in his own, much larger Terminator armor. He is also a bit of a mastermind and deeply cares about humans and his legion, unlike SOME primarchs. I guess being a perpertual is a little cool as well.

Is it just me or would Vulkan have been just shot in the face repeatedly if that were actually true?

It is true. Vulkan had mustered some local townspeople to fight with him but on several sources it says Vulkan killed well over 100 raiders with his blacksmithing hammers alone

Ahem, I think you're mistaken. Vulkan clearly had plothammers

Vulkan is immortal. The Dark Eldar could have blasted away with Dark Lances and he'd simply respawn through it. There's nothing they could do to him.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 redrooster148 wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

 redrooster148 wrote:
Definitely Vulkan.
Just read his emergence story. Nocturne was pillaged and enslaved by dark eldar raiders every year, so everyone used to hide. Vulkan however thought screw this and stands with two blacksmiths hammers in the courtyard. He then proceeds to hammer time over a 100 said raiders with hammers.

its also cool that Vulkan is the largest and the strongest of all the primarchs and is capable of overturning Space Marine battle tanks with his bare hands . He is said to be as tall in his power armor as Horus is in his own, much larger Terminator armor. He is also a bit of a mastermind and deeply cares about humans and his legion, unlike SOME primarchs. I guess being a perpertual is a little cool as well.

Is it just me or would Vulkan have been just shot in the face repeatedly if that were actually true?

It is true. Vulkan had mustered some local townspeople to fight with him but on several sources it says Vulkan killed well over 100 raiders with his blacksmithing hammers alone

Ahem, I think you're mistaken. Vulkan clearly had plothammers

Vulkan is immortal. The Dark Eldar could have blasted away with Dark Lances and he'd simply respawn through it. There's nothing they could do to him.

Exactly. Exalt.

Why like the lion? Like Dark angels are evil as hell but the lion?! He is a pompous ass who kills his own men because he gets pissed when they talk back.

God I hate the lion...

Vulkan is my fav he and his men are equal (in his eyes) and the whole part of him bowing to his men instead of them bowing to him way cool!

I'm glad it's not just me that hate the Lion.

 zombiekila707 wrote:
Why like the lion? Like Dark angels are evil as hell but the lion?! He is a pompous ass who kills his own men because he gets pissed when they talk back.

Source? Never heard him kill his own people other than the traitors. Also, how are they evil? The ones who were tainted by the warp are Chaos now, no longer true DA.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ImAGeek wrote:
I'm glad it's not just me that hate the Lion.

So the Lion doesn't get a pass on the hate but Guilliman does?

Source? Never heard him kill his own people other than the traitors. Also, how are they evil? The ones who were tainted by the warp are Chaos now, no longer true DA.

In one of the stories, The Lion Beheads an Astartes for speaking out of turn.

 zombiekila707 wrote:
Why like the lion? Like Dark angels are evil as hell but the lion?! He is a pompous ass who kills his own men because he gets pissed when they talk back.

God I hate the lion...

Vulkan is my fav he and his men are equal (in his eyes) and the whole part of him bowing to his men instead of them bowing to him way cool!

I fething swear, it's like people don't even bother to actually read any Dark Angel books, and instead get everything they know from 1D4Chan. The Lion isn't pompous, he's bipolar. He's perfectly chill most of the time and accepts criticism, only his emotions swing and he lacks any grounding due to spending his childhood in a forest surrounded by Daemons.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 zombiekila707 wrote:
Why like the lion? Like Dark angels are evil as hell but the lion?! He is a pompous ass who kills his own men because he gets pissed when they talk back.

Source? Never heard him kill his own people other than the traitors. Also, how are they evil? The ones who were tainted by the warp are Chaos now, no longer true DA.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ImAGeek wrote:
I'm glad it's not just me that hate the Lion.

So the Lion doesn't get a pass on the hate but Guilliman does?

Nah, I've been through this. I agree that the Lion and Guilliman both made the same mistake not getting to Terra, but I like Guilliman for other reasons, and hate the Lion for other reasons.

 Asherian Command wrote:

Source? Never heard him kill his own people other than the traitors. Also, how are they evil? The ones who were tainted by the warp are Chaos now, no longer true DA.

In one of the stories, The Lion Beheads an Astartes for speaking out of turn.

Again, source? Searched the Lexicanum and the codex, never found that.

It's in either Descent of Angels or Fallen Angels I think.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 zombiekila707 wrote:
Why like the lion? Like Dark angels are evil as hell but the lion?! He is a pompous ass who kills his own men because he gets pissed when they talk back.

Source? Never heard him kill his own people other than the traitors. Also, how are they evil? The ones who were tainted by the warp are Chaos now, no longer true DA.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ImAGeek wrote:
I'm glad it's not just me that hate the Lion.

So the Lion doesn't get a pass on the hate but Guilliman does?

Nah, I've been through this. I agree that the Lion and Guilliman both made the same mistake not getting to Terra, but I like Guilliman for other reasons, and hate the Lion for other reasons.

We've ready established this. The Lion is a moody bipolar pubescent with an awesome background and Guilliman is a bigoted bully pubescent with a meh background. Now, let's argue about something else. For instance: why the frack is the nerdy kid starting to catch up to the flawless kid on the poll?

 dusara217 wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 zombiekila707 wrote:
Why like the lion? Like Dark angels are evil as hell but the lion?! He is a pompous ass who kills his own men because he gets pissed when they talk back.

Source? Never heard him kill his own people other than the traitors. Also, how are they evil? The ones who were tainted by the warp are Chaos now, no longer true DA.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ImAGeek wrote:
I'm glad it's not just me that hate the Lion.

So the Lion doesn't get a pass on the hate but Guilliman does?

Nah, I've been through this. I agree that the Lion and Guilliman both made the same mistake not getting to Terra, but I like Guilliman for other reasons, and hate the Lion for other reasons.

We've ready established this. The Lion is an ass with an awesome background and Guilliman is a bigoted dill weed with a gakky background. Now, let's argue about something else. For instance: why the frack is the nerdy kid starting to catch up to the flawless kid on the poll?

Good way to diffuse a situation that, posting an inflammatory opinionated statement...

It's in the Primarchs that the Lion beheads a marine. It was a chaplain that was refusing to budge on the Lion reinstating the Librarians. They were being attacked by daemons and they were the only reliable weapon for the Dark Angels so the chaplain should have stood down but after he killed him the Lion was remorseful and said everyone should honor him because he died for something be believed in.

Also the Lion is awesome.

 ImAGeek wrote:
It's in either Descent of Angels or Fallen Angels I think.

It's in The Primarchs Anthology. Story, the Lion.

Lion kills Nemiel after Nemiel insists that he is breaking the Emperors Law.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
It's in either Descent of Angels or Fallen Angels I think.

It's in The Primarchs Anthology. Story, the Lion.

Lion kills Nemiel after Nemiel insists that he is breaking the Emperors Law.

So it is, cheers. I knew it was a HH DA story and just completely forgot that one existed.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 zombiekila707 wrote:
Why like the lion? Like Dark angels are evil as hell but the lion?! He is a pompous ass who kills his own men because he gets pissed when they talk back.

God I hate the lion...

Vulkan is my fav he and his men are equal (in his eyes) and the whole part of him bowing to his men instead of them bowing to him way cool!

I fething swear, it's like people don't even bother to actually read any Dark Angel books, and instead get everything they know from 1D4Chan. The Lion isn't pompous, he's bipolar. He's perfectly chill most of the time and accepts criticism, only his emotions swing and he lacks any grounding due to spending his childhood in a forest surrounded by Daemons.

He's also allied with chaos and would've turned on the Emperor in a second.

The Fallen know the truth! LION WAS A HERETIC!

#Lutherwasright

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
It's in either Descent of Angels or Fallen Angels I think.

It's in The Primarchs Anthology. Story, the Lion.

Lion kills Nemiel after Nemiel insists that he is breaking the Emperors Law.

So it is, cheers. I knew it was a HH DA story and just completely forgot that one existed.

Mordred was there first

Ah yeah, I missed that. Thanks Mordred too.

 Mordred wrote:
It's in the Primarchs that the Lion beheads a marine. It was a chaplain that was refusing to budge on the Lion reinstating the Librarians. They were being attacked by daemons and they were the only reliable weapon for the Dark Angels so the chaplain should have stood down but after he killed him the Lion was remorseful and said everyone should honor him because he died for something be believed in.

Also the Lion is awesome.

That actually makes sense.

The only good Primarch is a dead Primarch

 dusara217 wrote:
Sanguinius, who was the purest, uncorruptable of the Primarchs. IMHO, the Blood Angels and their successors should be uncorruptable as well. Actually, I've never heard of Traitor BA or Successors, could somebody provide examples or are the BA uncorruptable?
Sanguinius was also the wisest of the Primarchs and (arguably) the best in CQC.

Oh please, the blood angels are all closet Khorne worshipers

lustigjh wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:
Sanguinius, who was the purest, uncorruptable of the Primarchs. IMHO, the Blood Angels and their successors should be uncorruptable as well. Actually, I've never heard of Traitor BA or Successors, could somebody provide examples or are the BA uncorruptable?
Sanguinius was also the wisest of the Primarchs and (arguably) the best in CQC.

Oh please, the blood angels are all closet Khorne worshipers

The Blood Angels have the restraint of the Ultramaraines, the CC power of the World Eaters and the aesthetics of the Emperor's Children as well as a humbleness all their own. They are everything Khorne is not, except for the CC bit.

Mordred wrote:It's in the Primarchs that the Lion beheads a marine. It was a chaplain that was refusing to budge on the Lion reinstating the Librarians. They were being attacked by daemons and they were the only reliable weapon for the Dark Angels so the chaplain should have stood down but after he killed him the Lion was remorseful and said everyone should honor him because he died for something be believed in.

Also the Lion is awesome.

Thanks for making me hate the Lion even more, Nemiel was my second favorite Dark Angel Space Marine.

lustigjh wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:
Sanguinius, who was the purest, uncorruptable of the Primarchs. IMHO, the Blood Angels and their successors should be uncorruptable as well. Actually, I've never heard of Traitor BA or Successors, could somebody provide examples or are the BA uncorruptable?
Sanguinius was also the wisest of the Primarchs and (arguably) the best in CQC.

Oh please, the blood angels are all closet Khorne worshipers

Blood for the Emperor God?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mordred wrote:
It's in the Primarchs that the Lion beheads a marine. It was a chaplain that was refusing to budge on the Lion reinstating the Librarians. They were being attacked by daemons and they were the only reliable weapon for the Dark Angels so the chaplain should have stood down but after he killed him the Lion was remorseful and said everyone should honor him because he died for something be believed in.

Also the Lion is awesome.

Ah, cheers. Also, sounds like he had reasons for killing the Chaplain.

 PastelAvenger wrote:
Chief Sneakiness himself Alpharius, the guy wields a Necron weapon is able to almost take Horus's ship with a handful of people and may still be alive......Hydra Dominatus!

Wait, he wields a Necron weapon?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 PastelAvenger wrote:
Chief Sneakiness himself Alpharius, the guy wields a Necron weapon is able to almost take Horus's ship with a handful of people and may still be alive......Hydra Dominatus!

Wait, he wields a Necron weapon?

It's heavily implied

The Pale Spear

This was one of a number of strange and esoteric weapons associated with the Primarch and rumoured to be a strange xenos artefact whose forging predated even the rise of the Eldar. This double-bladed spear flickered seemingly out of phase with the material universe when wielded, emitting an eerie and otherworldly howling, and was able to piece any physical defence it encountered without impediment, ripping them apart at a molecular level. Against living matter, it inflicted hideously gaping bloodless wounds as the flesh where it struck dissolved into oily smoke.

And then it's proflie has it at AP1, has armourbane, and is two handed, similarities shared with the Necron Warscythe.

 ImAGeek wrote:

Khonsu wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
No Primarchs (maybe Perturabo) wanted their soldiers to die meaningless deaths, that's hardly unique to the Lion.

Huh?
Perturabo?
What a load of horsecrap.
Source?

Erm, Extermination by FW, he had one tenth of his legion beaten to death by the rest of the Legionnaires when he assumed command of the Iron Warriors, because they weren't the best legion.

It's called Decimation, The Romans came up with it, It's not meaningless at all when you remember the Imperial/Late Republican Roman Army was the most polished and efficient instrument of war in its time.

Magnus has just the right mix of hubris, tragedy, sympathy and nobility for me. I liked how, even at the Battle of the Fang, when he's already ascended(?) he expresses admiration for his archfoes, the Space Wolves.

Plus I loathe Space Vikings. That makes things a lot easier.

Here's a summary of the events.

Khonsu wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

Khonsu wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
No Primarchs (maybe Perturabo) wanted their soldiers to die meaningless deaths, that's hardly unique to the Lion.

Huh?
Perturabo?
What a load of horsecrap.
Source?

Erm, Extermination by FW, he had one tenth of his legion beaten to death by the rest of the Legionnaires when he assumed command of the Iron Warriors, because they weren't the best legion.

It's called Decimation, The Romans came up with it, It's not meaningless at all when you remember the Imperial/Late Republican Roman Army was the most polished and efficient instrument of war in its time.

I know what Decimation is, and it's origins, thanks. It's pretty pointless in the IW case though. It didn't really achieve much. And I'm an IW fan.

The Romans used it to punish large groups of men for things like desertion. Perturabo did it because 'the IW weren't the best legion'. See the difference?

 Wyzilla wrote:

Spoiler:

Here's a summary of the events.

Pretty much lol. That character was kinda important though. Such a waste...

Khonsu wrote:
It's called Decimation, The Romans came up with it, It's not meaningless at all when you remember the Imperial/Late Republican Roman Army was the most polished and efficient instrument of war in its time.

Uh, it does seem pretty meaningless. We're talking about Space Marines here, just think of how difficult and expensive they are to make. And they're already disciplined. Not to mention the Great Crusade was in full swing so they had to ramp up recruitment. And a tenth of a LEGION? I'd smack his head off if I was the Emperor.

The Emperor let it happen, strangely. Guilliman tried to stop it and Empy basically told him not to meddle.

 ImAGeek wrote:
The Emperor let it happen, strangely. Guilliman tried to stop it and Empy basically told him not to meddle.

The Emperor coddled his children, he did. Couldn't bring himself to kill Horus right away either.

I guess it kinda makes sense since he wanted his Primarchs to have full control in shaping their legions. But still, decimation seems like such an overreaction. Just think of all the recruits they had to go through to get that many Astartes. At least they harvested back the organs I hope...

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
The Emperor let it happen, strangely. Guilliman tried to stop it and Empy basically told him not to meddle.

The Emperor coddled his children, he did. Couldn't bring himself to kill Horus right away either.

I guess it kinda makes sense since he wanted his Primarchs to have full control in shaping their legions. But still, decimation seems like such an overreaction. Just think of all the recruits they had to go through to get that many Astartes. At least they harvested back the organs I hope...

They hadn't done anything wrong. They were one of the most renowned legions at that point. They just weren't the number one. It's definitly meaningless deaths, because it's not like they then became the number one legion haha, so I don't really know what it achieved.

 ImAGeek wrote:
The Emperor let it happen, strangely. Guilliman tried to stop it and Empy basically told him not to meddle.

Where did Guilliman try to act?

It's in HH3: Extermination from FW.

'At this bloody edict some within the Imperial Court protested, believing that the Emperor had given absolute power of a Space Marine Legion to a madman, while others, more guarded in their criticism, opined only that command had been given too soon to the Primarch -- unused as he was to the ways of the Imperium. Loudest of these critics was Roboute Guilliman, Primarch of the Ultramarines, who bridled at the ignominy of the deaths to which valiant Astartes -- warriors alongside which his own Legion had often fought -- had been thus consigned. It was a spur of discord between the two Primarchs that, though later eclipsed by other rancours and feuds among the Emperor's sons, would be one that neither would ever forget. All such criticism the Emperor silenced.'

Odd. Very odd. This makes Perturabo sound extremely petty. Seems like an interesting read though.

It's probably the only misstep I've noticed from FW HH stuff, and I don't mind it too much, he's pretty ruthless. But it is rather pointless.

The HH books from forge world are superb.

This is the explanation for the decimation 'Their sin was not that they had failed in the Great Crusade's service -- for by no measure had this been the case, but instead that they had not reached their full potential. It was not enough for Perturabo that they were merely superior, their fault lay in that among the Legions they were not already supreme.'

The guy always was a petty fellow. A single comment from Dorn about his and Perturabo’s legions was enough to send the latter into blind rage.

 Redcruisair wrote:
The guy always was a petty fellow. A single comment from Dorn about his and Perturabo’s legions was enough to send the latter into blind rage.

No it's not like that. Decades of doing jobs no one else would do, and getting absolutely no glory for doing it made him understandably bitter, and Dorns comment was the straw that broke the camels back.

 ImAGeek wrote:
No it's not like that. Decades of doing jobs no one else would do, and getting absolutely no glory for doing it made him understandably bitter

I never understood this. The IW legion was renowned for their skills to the point where even Guilliman felt honored to have his men fight alongside the Iron Warriors. Clearly they were respected, so why didn’t they get any honor?

It must be an oversight.

 ImAGeek wrote:
Dorns comment was the straw that broke the camels back.

The guy must suffer from some awfully thin skin then. Dorn did nothing but answering a question about whether he thought his legion could withstand a siege by Perp’s men. It was an opinion Perturabo could easily have ignored.

There was a Rememberancer who painted a picture of a siege that the IW and IF were both involved in. Pretty sure the IW did the majority of the work, the IF arrived later and mopped up kinda thing. The picture had loads of dead IW in the mud, and some IF raising a banner.

The Iron Warriors did every single thankless, menial task they were asked. They garrisoned worlds, lost many legionnaires in countless sieges, did things no other legion would even consider, and they got no thanks, no glory, nothing. And then their brother legion who they had a huge rivalry for decades got asked to fortify the Palace, even though the IW were obviously extremely adept at fortifying and garrisoning worlds.

Dorn could have been a lot more tactful. I think you're oversimplifying what happened a lot. Yes he could've ignored it, but seriously, decades of putting in backbreaking labour without so much as a thanks, and a comment like that which would make you feel worthless. I'd be exactly the same in Pertys place.

And to top it off, Perturabo had a real passion for designing, building etc, but he spent his entire career forced to destroy. He'd have absolutely fortified the Palace fantastically. It would have been nigh impenetrable, he really had the know how, but he never got chance to prove it. One of the Emperors biggest mistakes imo was not asking him to fortify Terra. He should have got them both to, and maybe they would've built some bridges. It was just another reason for Perturabo to think all his labour was completely unappreciated.

Seriously, I can totally see why he was so bitter. He's not just 'petty', he's been ground into the mud for decades without a word of thanks.

 dusara217 wrote:
Sanguinius, who was the purest, uncorruptable of the Primarchs. IMHO, the Blood Angels and their successors should be uncorruptable as well. Actually, I've never heard of Traitor BA or Successors, could somebody provide examples or are the BA uncorruptable?
Sanguinius was also the wisest of the Primarchs and (arguably) the best in CQC.

flesh tearers have one renegade battle brother who went renegade in order to remove the flaw(and failed, that's whatcha get for consorting with chaos )
my favourite primarch is Ferrus Manus tho.
HAIL THE GORGON! HAIL THE IRON TENTH!

 ImAGeek wrote:
There was a Rememberancer who painted a picture of a siege that the IW and IF were both involved in. Pretty sure the IW did the majority of the work, the IF arrived later and mopped up kinda thing. The picture had loads of dead IW in the mud, and some IF raising a banner.

The Iron Warriors did every single thankless, menial task they were asked. They garrisoned worlds, lost many legionnaires in countless sieges, did things no other legion would even consider, and they got no thanks, no glory, nothing. And then their brother legion who they had a huge rivalry for decades got asked to fortify the Palace, even though the IW were obviously extremely adept at fortifying and garrisoning worlds.

Dorn could have been a lot more tactful. I think you're oversimplifying what happened a lot. Yes he could've ignored it, but seriously, decades of putting in backbreaking labour without so much as a thanks, and a comment like that which would make you feel worthless. I'd be exactly the same in Pertys place.

And to top it off, Perturabo had a real passion for designing, building etc, but he spent his entire career forced to destroy. He'd have absolutely fortified the Palace fantastically. It would have been nigh impenetrable, he really had the know how, but he never got chance to prove it. One of the Emperors biggest mistakes imo was not asking him to fortify Terra. He should have got them both to, and maybe they would've built some bridges. It was just another reason for Perturabo to think all his labour was completely unappreciated.

Seriously, I can totally see why he was so bitter. He's not just 'petty', he's been ground into the mud for decades without a word of thanks.

Exactly this.

The Iron Warriors did all the thankless tasks, only to see the glory achieved in victory claimed from them by some others.
Perturabo himself had a love for designing and creating new things (remember the clockwork miniatures in AE?), but never really got the chance to do so. He had to destroy the things he had a passion for, instead. And he did that, because it was asked from him. He did everything demanded of him, but never really got any recognition for it in return.

 thenoobbomb wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
There was a Rememberancer who painted a picture of a siege that the IW and IF were both involved in. Pretty sure the IW did the majority of the work, the IF arrived later and mopped up kinda thing. The picture had loads of dead IW in the mud, and some IF raising a banner.

The Iron Warriors did every single thankless, menial task they were asked. They garrisoned worlds, lost many legionnaires in countless sieges, did things no other legion would even consider, and they got no thanks, no glory, nothing. And then their brother legion who they had a huge rivalry for decades got asked to fortify the Palace, even though the IW were obviously extremely adept at fortifying and garrisoning worlds.

Dorn could have been a lot more tactful. I think you're oversimplifying what happened a lot. Yes he could've ignored it, but seriously, decades of putting in backbreaking labour without so much as a thanks, and a comment like that which would make you feel worthless. I'd be exactly the same in Pertys place.

And to top it off, Perturabo had a real passion for designing, building etc, but he spent his entire career forced to destroy. He'd have absolutely fortified the Palace fantastically. It would have been nigh impenetrable, he really had the know how, but he never got chance to prove it. One of the Emperors biggest mistakes imo was not asking him to fortify Terra. He should have got them both to, and maybe they would've built some bridges. It was just another reason for Perturabo to think all his labour was completely unappreciated.

Seriously, I can totally see why he was so bitter. He's not just 'petty', he's been ground into the mud for decades without a word of thanks.

Exactly this.

The Iron Warriors did all the thankless tasks, only to see the glory achieved in victory claimed from them by some others.
Perturabo himself had a love for designing and creating new things (remember the clockwork miniatures in AE?), but never really got the chance to do so. He had to destroy the things he had a passion for, instead. And he did that, because it was asked from him. He did everything demanded of him, but never really got any recognition for it in return.

Not all the thankless tasks, the Space Wolves would argue that point if they can be believed.

And regardless of what Perturabo enjoyed doing, he was created with one thing in mind, to wage war and destroy. He willingly accepted command of the Iron Warriors and all that this decision entailed. But you can definitely see how it must have rankled the Primarch as well as his Sons, to always be the ones to not receive the glory and be the go to mud sloggers.

I would assume that the reason why Dorn was asked to fortify the palace was be because he was already there, and at time of uncertainty, could be relied upon. Imagine what could have happened if Perturabo, already sworn to Horus, was called back to Terra and accepted.

If the Heresy hadn't have broken out Terra wouldn't have needed to have been fortified as it was and the Fists would have been little more than the Imperial Palace Guard. To some, this would be the worst kind of fate. I think the conversation between the Fists and Luna Wolves in Horus Rising reflects this, whilst the Wolves are still out crusading and winning glory the Fists will be nursemaids.

If Perturabo had been asked to fortify Terra (which began before the Heresy), he wouldn't have joined Horus.
Perturabo was, in essence, more fit to be an architect and diplomat in a democratic state, rather than a Warlord in a fascist Imperium.

Perturabo wasn't sworn to Horus when the palace was fortified. The palace was actually started to be fortified before the heresy broke out I think.

And yes, he was created to wage war, yet he watched his brothers (particularly Dorn) get to do what they enjoyed. For example, Dorn being asked to fortify terra. Perturabo would've loved to do that. He never would have turned if he was asked to do it. None of his brothers even knew he liked to build and create, because none of them made any kind of effort with him.

 thenoobbomb wrote:
If Perturabo had been asked to fortify Terra (which began before the Heresy), he wouldn't have joined Horus.
Perturabo was, in essence, more fit to be an architect and diplomat in a democratic state, rather than a Warlord in a fascist Imperium.

 ImAGeek wrote:
Perturabo wasn't sworn to Horus when the palace was fortified. The palace was actually started to be fortified before the heresy broke out I think.
And yes, he was created to wage war, yet he watched his brothers (particularly Dorn) get to do what they enjoyed. For example, Dorn being asked to fortify terra. Perturabo would've loved to do that. He never would have turned if he was asked to do it.

The Lightning Tower seems to suggest that Dorn was requested to return home because of the Heresy

P7 - The Imperium was attacking itself. The Warmaster, for reasons Dorn was quite at a loss to fathom, had turned upon their father, and was committing his forces to all-out war. That war would come to Terra. There was no question. It would come. Terra needed to be ready. The palace needed to be ready. His father had asked him, as a personal boon, to return to Terra and fortify it for war.

I will need to have a look back at Horus Rising to see how the conversation goes. From what I recall, Dorn is requested to return back to Terra to be it's praetorian, then he gets stuck in the Warp in Flight of the Eisenstein, then he returns back to Terra to fortify it taking Garro and the Death Guard with him. By this time Perturabo has burnt Olympia and sided with Horus.

And more what I was getting at if this is not the case is that Terra wouldn't have needed to be fortified so much if the Heresy hadn't had erupted. Dorn begrudged having to change the palace in such away.

 ImAGeek wrote:
None of his brothers even knew he liked to build and create, because none of them made any kind of effort with him.

Perturabo isn't blameless in this, if the relationship between him and Dorn is anything to go by. But certainly, his brothers seem to have kept him at arms length due to how smart he was.

Nope. Just checked, in Horus Rising, when Loken and Torgaddon are talking to Sigismund, Torgaddon says about how the Imperial Fists are being withdrawn to fortify the Imperial Palace. That's before the SoH are even named the Sons of Horus, they're still the Luna Wolves. The Heresy hasn't started then.

'What brother Sigismund isn't telling you, Garviel.’ Torgaddon said, 'is that his Legion is going to miss all the glory. It's to be withdrawn. He's quite miffed about
it.’
Tarik is being selective with the truth.’ Sigismund snorted. 'The Imperial Fists have been commanded by the Emperor to return to Terra and establish a guard around him there. We are chosen as his Praetorians. Now who's miffed, Luna Wolf?'

 ImAGeek wrote:
Nope. Just checked, in Horus Rising, when Loken and Torgaddon are talking to Sigismund, Torgaddon says about how the Imperial Fists are being withdrawn to fortify the Imperial Palace. That's before the SoH are even named the Sons of Horus, they're still the Luna Wolves. The Heresy hasn't started then.

But they don't get back until the Heresy has actually started as they get stuck in the warp in Flight of the Eisenstein, or are already stuck in the warp. It's the destruction of the Eisentstiens warp drives that attracts the Fists fleet to it.

'What brother Sigismund isn't telling you, Garviel.’ Torgaddon said, 'is that his Legion is going to miss all the glory. It's to be withdrawn. He's quite miffed about
it.’
Tarik is being selective with the truth.’ Sigismund snorted. 'The Imperial Fists have been commanded by the Emperor to return to Terra and establish a guard around him there. We are chosen as his Praetorians. Now who's miffed, Luna Wolf?'

Yeah, but they could've asked Perturabo, because he wasn't traitor at the time Dorn was asked, which is what your point was. And they still could've asked the IW to be the guard, and still would've had one less traitor legion.

 ImAGeek wrote:
Yeah, but they could've asked Perturabo, because he wasn't traitor at the time Dorn was asked, which is what your point was. And they still could've asked the IW to be the guard, and still would've had one less traitor legion.

Ok, they could've ask Perturabo, but he was doing what he did best or at least what the others thought, doing sieges. It was Dorns task to be the Praetorian, not Perturabo's.

I think we are talking about different times here. I'm referring to when the Fists actually managed to return to Terra and my point was they didn't know who to trust, look how trusting them turned out at the Dropsite Massacre. Sure Dorn and the rest didn't know they were traitors but he was a traitor at that time, in Perturabos eyes at least. Once he had burnt Olympia he didn't see how the Emperor could have forgiven him and Horus had gotten his claws into him.

I would assume that the reason why Dorn was asked to fortify the palace was be because he was already there, and at time of uncertainty, could be relied upon. Imagine what could have happened if Perturabo, already sworn to Horus, was called back to Terra and accepted.

Is what I said, I was incorrect about the first part as they weren't already there. But say that Dorn, rather than assign the Iron Warriors to the Istvaan task force, had asked them to come back to Terra, then imagine what might have happened.

The thing is, Perturabos whole betrayal could have been so easily prevented. The only reason he burnt Olympia was because of his pent up frustrations at his treatment, and the reason he joined Horus was because he offered him forgiveness for Olympia. If he'd been shown a modicum of gratitude throughh the great crusade, he'd have been as loyal as Dorn, or Sanguinius, or anyone.

When the Fists were at Terra and the Heresy broke out then I agree the fists were the only choice really.

Even when he was a traitor, Perturabo thought the aim of the Heresy was to overthrow the Emperor, not necessarily kill him and their brothers. Even when he was a traitor he started off fairly noble.

I wish I'd gone with Perturabo now on the poll sorry if it seems like I'm having a go or being overly argumentative, I just feel when people make Perturabo out to be some needlessly bitter, petty guy, they've kind of missed the whole of the buildup to why he turned. His betrayal is one of the most reasonable I think, and could have been so easily avoided.

 ImAGeek wrote:
The thing is, Perturabos whole betrayal could have been so easily prevented. The only reason he burnt Olympia was because of his pent up frustrations at his treatment, and the reason he joined Horus was because he offered him forgiveness for Olympia. If he'd been shown a modicum of gratitude throughh the great crusade, he'd have been as loyal as Dorn, or Sanguinius, or anyone.

But then why side with Horus, as Warmaster, Horus is as likely to have sent Perturabo on as many grubby missions as the Emperor. But yes, he most certainly could have been and his scene between him and the Emperor in Angel Exterminatus does support this. A Mortarion or Angron he is not.

Perturabo is a victim of his own circumstance it would seem, at the start he eagerly threw himself into the type of missions he would later be type cast for. I think it might have been a way from keeping him from really shining. Something that possibly Horus would stop him from doing maybe? Would Perturabo have made a better Warmaster than Horus?

 ImAGeek wrote:
I wish I'd gone with Perturabo now on the poll sorry if it seems like I'm having a go or being overly argumentative, I just feel when people make Perturabo out to be some needlessly bitter, petty guy, they've kind of missed the whole of the buildup to why he turned. His betrayal is one of the most reasonable I think, and could have been so easily avoided.

No worries and I agree, there is more to Perturbo then that. If he had had more faith in the Emperor and maybe more faith that the Emperor had faith in him, he might have been on the good guys side.