I know this has probably been hashed out a thousand times before, but I've brought up this suggestion in regards to making Terminators more playable in the current meta.
Give them a re-rollable armor save. (Just armor, not the invuln save)
Allow their squads two heavy weapons per 5 guys.
Reduce the cost of their heavy weapons choices by say 5 points each.
They still keep all their other rules and stats.
This gives them their resilience back more in line with the fluff and doesn't go overboard in making them an OP unit. Thoughts?
Rerollable armor saves would be broken as all gak. 2+ rerollable saves are crazy strong despite the fact that AP2 bypasses it completely. Orks can make 1 Warboss have 2+ rerollable and that is one of the best things in the entire codex.
Give Terminators 5+ FNP and see how that plays out. Would help against both plasma and non AP2 weapons but not help vs the big guns that instant kill them.
At this point Terminators are not salvageable without major changes to the core game. As long as rules are released to push model sales we're gonna see more and more grav-esque weapons.
The roots of termies being unplayable are:
- They are too expencive
- They are not survivable or shooty enough for their cost
- While they hit like a truck in melee, they have no grenades, cannot sweep, and more importantly their delivery system is either extremely unreliable (deep strike) or extremely expensive (Land Raider).
Giving them extra survivbility against non-AP2 is not a solution, since every army now runs tons of plasma or grav weapons to deal with things like Riptides or Wraithknights, not to mention lascannons an equivalends.
Making them cheaper, adding more dakka (turning Stormbolter into a two bolters with 4 shots at 12", adding extra heavy weapon slots), and more reliability (deep strike mishap protection or making teleport homers / homing beacons available to more units) on the other hand would help. 7E codices dropping prices by 5 points helped, but not enough.
Termies die to lasguns when their armor is made for PLASMA REACTORS. The issue is large volume of fire or attacks will kill them a re-rollable save prevents that.
Frankly grav is broken and here to stay, there is no solution to it that doesn't screw over the other AP2 or AP1 options against Termies.
IMO having the rerollerable on the 2+ is the best idea i've heard. Immunity to mass small arms fire, but easy pickings for heavy weapons.
The whole game is screwed atm, so agreements in metas are the easiest fix by a long shot. Not even worth comparing broken stuff to terminators, the gap is too far.
I've been playing GK quite a bit with termies as troop choice. While any time I had to face off against grav or ap2 pie plates of death I would just groan and bear it. I had more problems with dealing with masses of non ap2 weapons like Tau missile-sides squads, IG lasgun blobs, and Tyranid dakkafexes.
Yeah I got armor saves but when I have to roll 30 armor saves with my Termie squad it makes them useless as a T4 1 wound model.
It might help to add the extra wound but then you run into the usual pains of keeping track of wounded multi-wound models.
FNP might be an option as well but I think for the points you pay for them it should be 4+ and not 5+
New problem added: keeping track of those wounds. Every Ork and Nid player would say you how much it slows down the game.
Tactical_Spam wrote:personal teleporters
OneEyedALice wrote:personal teleporters.
There in no personal teleporters in the IoM, save for those used by GKs (and those are basically magitek, that only works in conjunction with GK psychic powers). The teleporters they use to deep strike terminators are hugeass machines, that require so much power that only battlecruisers or higher class ships can power them without rediecting pretty much all of the ship's reactor output to the teleporter.
New problem added: keeping track of those wounds. Every Ork and Nid player would say you how much it slows down the game.
Tactical_Spam wrote:personal teleporters
OneEyedALice wrote:personal teleporters.
There in no personal teleporters in the IoM, save for those used by GKs (and those are basically magitek, that only works in conjunction with GK psychic powers). The teleporters they use to deep strike terminators are hugeass machines, that require so much power that only battlecruisers or higher class ships can power them without rediecting pretty much all of the ship's reactor output to the teleporter.
ignore terrain then, Terminators are so garage at whatever they do
There in no personal teleporters in the IoM, save for those used by GKs (and those are basically magitek, that only works in conjunction with GK psychic powers). The teleporters they use to deep strike terminators are hugeass machines, that require so much power that only battlecruisers or higher class ships can power them without rediecting pretty much all of the ship's reactor output to the teleporter.
Centurions suddenly were added to the game. Necrons suddenly changed in 5E.
Why the Terminators can not get teleporters?
Maybe assault the turn they deepstrike, and reroll scatter on deepstrike (or no scatter).
Whenever I read a story about them in the lore they instantly appear and start fighting (no standing around for a turn)
Automatically Appended Next Post: I think ignores unwieldy would be appropriate - they should be able to swing a power fist with their terminator armor faster than an imperial guard sergeant with one.
+1 Ws, +1 toughness and option for FnP would go a long way towards making Terminators good. Paying 17 pts more than your marine to get a power weapon and a +1 armor is not enough and you don't see people playing plain marines either. A 5 str/5 toughness, 2+ armor, 5++ with possible pauy-pts-for-fnp would be a different story though. Suddenly you don't get to save 10 wounds from lasguns so that you lose your guys in vain, because they need 6's to wound you. Same goes for all small arms fire. And where 2 attacks with Ws 4 were nothing to write home about, having Ws 5 changes the dynamics a LOT.
Then of course Nurgle terminators would have Toughness 6 which would maybe be problematic, or have them akin to the wraithblades for slightly more points.
topaxygouroun i wrote: +1 Ws, +1 toughness and option for FnP would go a long way towards making Terminators good. Paying 17 pts more than your marine to get a power weapon and a +1 armor is not enough and you don't see people playing plain marines either. A 5 str/5 toughness, 2+ armor, 5++ with possible pauy-pts-for-fnp would be a different story though. Suddenly you don't get to save 10 wounds from lasguns so that you lose your guys in vain, because they need 6's to wound you. Same goes for all small arms fire. And where 2 attacks with Ws 4 were nothing to write home about, having Ws 5 changes the dynamics a LOT.
Then of course Nurgle terminators would have Toughness 6 which would maybe be problematic, or have them akin to the wraithblades for slightly more points.
toughness 5 is a must. If SM shrug off small arms with power armour, then Terminators must be god-like durable
Part of this is to make it as simple as possible to change across the board, since updating the 6 Codexes with Terminator Armour in takes ages!
I'd say the best way to making Tactical Terminators more powerful is a broad change to Stormbolters in the rulebook. Something like Salvo 3/ 4 or Salvo 4/ 5 Pinning. Terminators are always relentless so they'd just get tons of shots. Doesn't require changing all the codexes either. Also has other advantages, like making Stormbolters worth taking generally, and giving a slight boost to Rhinos.
If we're going to go for changes to the actual Terminator Armour rules, ignoring Unwieldy would be a simple buff. Anything to do with increasing their regular save becomes silly - they're already at 2+.
This is a problem.
Give 'em T5 W2 and a Terminator Command Squad? A terminator apothecary giving FNP to his unit and the Termie Captain (When they get a re-release) would make them be used alot more.
ArbitorIan wrote: I'd say the best way to making Tactical Terminators more powerful is a broad change to Stormbolters in the rulebook. Something like Salvo 3/ 4 or Salvo 4/ 5 Pinning. Terminators are always relentless so they'd just get tons of shots. Doesn't require changing all the codexes either. Also has other advantages, like making Stormbolters worth taking generally.
Just listing a few ways to make them more playable.
They need a points drop, hands down
They should force every enemy unit within 12" to be blind for the next game turn due to the way they teleport in (also a nod to the film) when they deepstrike.
They should ignore their first (and only first) failed 2+ save, and their first invulnerable save should be 3+, at which point it should revert back to 5+.
The whole point of them is they should be able to wreck havoc (which they will) if left ignored, but they should also be able to absorb a lot of punishment, which these rules would. It would force your enemy to throw a ridiculous amount of firepower at them for potentially 2 game turns along with also handicapping the enemy for a turn without needing to have their offensive output boosted.
This way they could wreck face in the enemy back field, literally plug a hole as a counter unit in your line, and also turn the tide of the battle at a crucial moment.
Just to note Grey Knights Termies would NOT get these rules additions for balance reasons, just a points drop.
I think it might be good to just give them a 2++ with 2 wounds. That way they keep the T4 for ID purposes. The have the added survivability of the two wounds while they get to keep their great save in almost any circumstances. The main thing that sucks about them now is the massive amount of AP2 that makes their save not very great. Plus theyare still vulnerable to grav, which they should be, since its specificaly meant to counter high armour infantry and MCs
Have armor against shooting attacks maintain some effectiveness against high AP so SV 2+ standard, then 3+ against AP2, 4+ against AP1. Reroll failed armor saves against AP5, 6, -- weapons.
Storm bolter can be used as a CC weapon with the power first for an extra attack in cc and terminators attack at initiative in cc with power fists.
One squad can take a unique war gear item that allows it assault the turn it deepstrikes. Item can only accommodate 6 bodies.
Give them a Teleport shunt like the Dreadknights have. BAM, done. The price cut was a step in the right direction, but they still need to get up close. That'd solve the problem of BOTH variants.
Gwaihirsbrother wrote: Have armor against shooting attacks maintain some effectiveness against high AP so SV 2+ standard, then 3+ against AP2, 4+ against AP1. Reroll failed armor saves against AP5, 6, -- weapons.
Storm bolter can be used as a CC weapon with the power first for an extra attack in cc and terminators attack at initiative in cc with power fists.
One squad can take a unique war gear item that allows it assault the turn it deepstrikes. Item can only accommodate 6 bodies.
calm down, chief. Plasma is a notorious termie melter so your plan doesnt work for toughness and theres a reason we have assault Termies. if the powerfist termies strike at the same time as Lightning claw termies but with the durability of Hammer/Shields then we have missed the point
Forgot about lightning claws so the other idea I had but didn't post might make more sense. That is to allow them to use the storm bolter in cc at their regular initiative step for 2 S4 AP5 attacks, then the fist as normal.
I'm no big terminator fan or space marine fan for that matter and place the Eldar, Tyranids, Orks and IG above Marines add far as factions I like or find interesting, but they are a joke on the table and have become increasingly more so over the years. I think they should be dramatically boosted since the game clearly won't head in the direction of scaling everything back. Terminators should be a nasty unit not something the fluff dude takes and gets smashed every time with more or less no effort.
I don't care that plasma has been the notorious termie killer forever. GW seems content to abandon long term ideas so might as well join the party. Plasma will still be effective, much more so than many other options with that proposal, but terminators gonna soak up some fire.
And the proposal for boosting the armor is only against shooting attacks to not encroach on shield guts in cc too much.
Gwaihirsbrother wrote: Forgot about lightning claws so the other idea I had but didn't post might make more sense. That is to allow them to use the storm bolter in cc at their regular initiative step for 2 S4 AP5 attacks, then the fist as normal.
I'm no big terminator fan or space marine fan for that matter and place the Eldar, Tyranids, Orks and IG above Marines add far as factions I like or find interesting, but they are a joke on the table and have become increasingly more so over the years. I think they should be dramatically boosted since the game clearly won't head in the direction of scaling everything back. Terminators should be a nasty unit not something the fluff dude takes and gets smashed every time with more or less no effort.
I don't care that plasma has been the notorious termie killer forever. GW seems content to abandon long term ideas so might as well join the party. Plasma will still be effective, much more so than many other options with that proposal, but terminators gonna soak up some fire.
And the proposal for boosting the armor is only against shooting attacks to not encroach on shield guts in cc too much.
Storm shields should be a 2++ save from a fluff stand point. Ive only read 2 stories where a Hammer/Shield Terminator died and that was because he lost his shield. If termies had a 4++ against AP2-1 but had a 2+ armour with FnP 5+ would make them fairly tough to tackle
Make it so that duel wielding two specialist weapons grants +1 initiative.
Then allow termies to ignore unwieldy and allow them to reroll all failed saves.
raverrn wrote: Just give them an extra wound. It's simple, effective and makes them a nice stepping stone between artificer armor and centurions.
My problem with the extra wound is then having the problem of keeping track of all those wounds on squads of multi-wound models. I think the re-rollable 2+ armor save is a much easier fix.
That's a bit awkward, but as a Tau player, I already deal with that on Crisis suits, and it's not terrible. Granted, Terminators come in larger numbers, but it shouldn't be too awkward.
Also, the 2+ rerollable doesn't really fix their vulnerability to the kind of massed AP2 or quasi-rending that both Tau and Eldar can pretty easily throw around, which is the whole reason why folks like hammernators, but not claw termies.
As an aside: the major distinction of Grey Knight Paladins is their added durability (+1W) - if all terminators got that, what would Paladins have? I think 3W is a little much... Maybe T5/T6?
jade_angel wrote: That's a bit awkward, but as a Tau player, I already deal with that on Crisis suits, and it's not terrible. Granted, Terminators come in larger numbers, but it shouldn't be too awkward.
Also, the 2+ rerollable doesn't really fix their vulnerability to the kind of massed AP2 or quasi-rending that both Tau and Eldar can pretty easily throw around, which is the whole reason why folks like hammernators, but not claw termies.
As an aside: the major distinction of Grey Knight Paladins is their added durability (+1W) - if all terminators got that, what would Paladins have? I think 3W is a little much... Maybe T5/T6?
I say let them reroll ALL their saves. It'd make 'em stupid durable and I doubt anyone would ever ask for them to be buffed again so we can stop having these threads.
raverrn wrote: Just give them an extra wound. It's simple, effective and makes them a nice stepping stone between artificer armor and centurions.
My problem with the extra wound is then having the problem of keeping track of all those wounds on squads of multi-wound models. I think the re-rollable 2+ armor save is a much easier fix.
2+ rerollable is insanely broken compared to 2+ flat save. Math Hammering some Str 4, WS 4 melee attacks (charging Ork boyz, Space Marines, Necron Warriors, etc) it takes on average 24 attacks to kill a terminator with its default 2+ armor save. With 2+ rerollable it turns from 24 attacks to 144 attacks. The last thing this game needs is more mechanics that require hard counters to defeat while everything else is completely ineffective. A single Warboss in Mega Armor with a Lucky Stikk is a nightmare to kill with anything short of AP2 and yet that setup is roughly 150 points and Orks can only take 1 in the entire army and that Warboss doesn't even have any Invuln save to help vs AP2. Maybe if the ITC style rule for 2+ rerollable being 2+/4+ then it would be better but as it currently stands 2+ rerollable is a horrible mechanic.
Hence why I suggest the Teleport Shunt. It helps with mobility issues and helps both variants, as well as giving more incentive to take Terminator HQ's.
jade_angel wrote: That's a bit awkward, but as a Tau player, I already deal with that on Crisis suits, and it's not terrible. Granted, Terminators come in larger numbers, but it shouldn't be too awkward.
Also, the 2+ rerollable doesn't really fix their vulnerability to the kind of massed AP2 or quasi-rending that both Tau and Eldar can pretty easily throw around, which is the whole reason why folks like hammernators, but not claw termies.
As an aside: the major distinction of Grey Knight Paladins is their added durability (+1W) - if all terminators got that, what would Paladins have? I think 3W is a little much... Maybe T5/T6?
For me it was never the ap2 and ap1 weapons that I would groan about, they suck to be shot with sure, but my problem was always more of the "Let me shoot you with my blog of IG or whatever, or scatbikes, or dakka fexes." Yes I would get armor saves against those damn weapons but when I have to make like 30 armor saves for a 5 man squad then 2+ armor doesn't mean jack all.
jade_angel wrote: That's a bit awkward, but as a Tau player, I already deal with that on Crisis suits, and it's not terrible. Granted, Terminators come in larger numbers, but it shouldn't be too awkward.
Also, the 2+ rerollable doesn't really fix their vulnerability to the kind of massed AP2 or quasi-rending that both Tau and Eldar can pretty easily throw around, which is the whole reason why folks like hammernators, but not claw termies.
As an aside: the major distinction of Grey Knight Paladins is their added durability (+1W) - if all terminators got that, what would Paladins have? I think 3W is a little much... Maybe T5/T6?
For me it was never the ap2 and ap1 weapons that I would groan about, they suck to be shot with sure, but my problem was always more of the "Let me shoot you with my blog of IG or whatever, or scatbikes, or dakka fexes." Yes I would get armor saves against those damn weapons but when I have to make like 30 armor saves for a 5 man squad then 2+ armor doesn't mean jack all.
What if they halved the number of AP4/5/6/- saves they have to make?
I would modify how Armour Saves work, making it a 0-10 characteristic and a few other things, then give Terminators the equivalent save of a light vehicle.
2++ is very overkill. It would make certain characters in Termie armor nigh on unkillable. FNP is also kind of... odd imo to use; why not just say a rerollable 5+ invul save? honestly rerolls are probably the easiest way to balance them, after all they mostly die to high rate of fire shooting. Just give them the reroll against AP4+ and call it a day.
They also need more utility, right now they are one-and-done. Deep strike should be more reliable, throw out the Mishap table for them perhaps? Or Obj. Secured for all Termies (don't know how much more secure an objective could be with Termies on it)?
Also Endlesswaltz... why do you want to kick Grey Knight termies teeth in?
Shooty termi should be able to carry more heavy weapons like plasma cannon and lascannons and with single hand as the other hand carry a fist or shield.
Here's what I propose:
1. Storm Bolters are S5. This universal change makes PA Grey Knights a little better of a choice, though that's a different topic.
2. TH/SS is only a 5 point upgrade from a new proposed price point. Assuming my changes work, I'm fine with 35 points being the base.
3. All Terminator variants get a Teleport Shunt like Dreadknights.
4. Tactical Terminators get access to two Heavy Weapons in the minimum squad.
I don't know what other fix would be made to assault Terminators.
Quickjager wrote: 2++ is very overkill. It would make certain characters in Termie armor nigh on unkillable. FNP is also kind of... odd imo to use; why not just say a rerollable 5+ invul save? honestly rerolls are probably the easiest way to balance them, after all they mostly die to high rate of fire shooting. Just give them the reroll against AP4+ and call it a day.
They also need more utility, right now they are one-and-done. Deep strike should be more reliable, throw out the Mishap table for them perhaps? Or Obj. Secured for all Termies (don't know how much more secure an objective could be with Termies on it)?
Also Endlesswaltz... why do you want to kick Grey Knight termies teeth in?
I don't really, I just want to avoid the stupid situation that would arise when boosting both grey knights and normal chapter marines that everyone would just ally in or proxy grey knight terminators, as the boosts would make grey knight termies (and paladins in particular) super good to the point that normal termies would just be stupidly inferior in comparison.
GK's need a boost too, but not the sort I was suggesting.
I still think auto invisibility on the first turn they arrive via deep strike is a great idea mind.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Here's what I propose:
1. Storm Bolters are S5. This universal change makes PA Grey Knights a little better of a choice, though that's a different topic.
2. TH/SS is only a 5 point upgrade from a new proposed price point. Assuming my changes work, I'm fine with 35 points being the base.
3. All Terminator variants get a Teleport Shunt like Dreadknights.
4. Tactical Terminators get access to two Heavy Weapons in the minimum squad.
I don't know what other fix would be made to assault Terminators.
Make assault termies able to assault after shunting? (particular special rule just for them) Teleport shunting only works once per game right?
Make tactical termies able to double tap storm bolters with rending/shred/fleshbane once per game also. I'd say triple tap with no shooting the following turn but I think people would lose their minds.
Quickjager wrote: 2++ is very overkill. It would make certain characters in Termie armor nigh on unkillable. FNP is also kind of... odd imo to use; why not just say a rerollable 5+ invul save? honestly rerolls are probably the easiest way to balance them, after all they mostly die to high rate of fire shooting. Just give them the reroll against AP4+ and call it a day.
They also need more utility, right now they are one-and-done. Deep strike should be more reliable, throw out the Mishap table for them perhaps? Or Obj. Secured for all Termies (don't know how much more secure an objective could be with Termies on it)?
Also Endlesswaltz... why do you want to kick Grey Knight termies teeth in?
I suspect because its fun to kick in the teeth of the GK. Many of us still remember 5th, and they still have the most Mary Sue fluff ever.
"I still think auto invisibility on the first turn they arrive via deep strike is a great idea mind."
I love how quickly these threads go from "how to make x more playable" into "how to make x a god." 2+ rerollable, 2++, FNP standard just makes them necrons, charging right out of deepstrike is really an absurd mechanic as it would make vehicles utterly useless, swinging powerfists at initiative defeats the purpose of the weapon.
+1 Toughness without a point increase would solve the problem without making them utterly insane. Lasguns would need 6's to wound, bolters a 5. Spamming low str shots would be A LOT less effective. Trying to make them resilient to scat bikes, universally accepted as one of the most powerful units in the game, would just then make terminators the most powerful unit in the game. If melta, plasma, and grav are ruining the terminators' day, well, that is what they are designed for.
Grumblewartz wrote: I love how quickly these threads go from "how to make x more playable" into "how to make x a god." 2+ rerollable, 2++, FNP standard just makes them necrons, charging right out of deepstrike is really an absurd mechanic as it would make vehicles utterly useless, swinging powerfists at initiative defeats the purpose of the weapon.
+1 Toughness without a point increase would solve the problem without making them utterly insane. Lasguns would need 6's to wound, bolters a 5. Spamming low str shots would be A LOT less effective. Trying to make them resilient to scat bikes, universally accepted as one of the most powerful units in the game, would just then make terminators the most powerful unit in the game. If melta, plasma, and grav are ruining the terminators' day, well, that is what they are designed for.
Or if you give them assault cannons, you can make the bikes jink. And hurt WK. And have some actual utility.
do as 30k does: give access to grenade harnesses (single or multi use assault grenades), open up everyone to using power weapons OR fists, objective secured, and a slight price drop. Nothing broken, makes them more versatile without giving them too many buffs.
realistically they aren't terrible, people just like to hate things that are not super optimized.
No, theyre terrible. Please quit trying to handwave away their terrible math. There is nothing optimized in e ba codex and they are still the worst thing in the book.
My houserules let stormbolters fire as heavy 3 but cannot make snapshots with that fire mode, and combibolters on chaos variants count as a close combat weapon in melee. I also gave all the prior units wearing terminator armor a 5 point reduction just like the marines.
Terminators aren't that bad off, I don't understand why everyone feels they are garbage...
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote: My houserules let stormbolters fire as heavy 3 but cannot make snapshots, and combibolters on chaos variants count as a close combat weapon in melee. I also gave all the prior units wearing terminator armor a 5 point reduction just like the marines.
Terminators aren't that bad off, I don't understand why everyone feels they are garbage...
Because they don't really participate in the shooting phase, they are expensive, they have few wounds to give, are slow, and there are many, many weapons that make a mockery of their armor. And their dedicated transport options suck. And unassisted deep striking sucks. And not being able to assault after deep striking makes their power fists useless. And they can't even sweep a unit. Shall I go on?
If you think that aren't that bad, tell me what you think they are good at. The answer is not a) soaking damage b) dealing damage or c) getting into melee.
"stormbolters fire as heavy 3"
Still useless, as marines have a ton of crappy S4 fire already.
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote: My houserules let stormbolters fire as heavy 3 but cannot make snapshots with that fire mode, and combibolters on chaos variants count as a close combat weapon in melee. I also gave all the prior units wearing terminator armor a 5 point reduction just like the marines.
Terminators aren't that bad off, I don't understand why everyone feels they are garbage...
If you have to house rule something, balance isn't good.
They're bad off because they don't do anything well. Mathhammer shows that an equal number of Banshees can potentially win combat against them, and Terminators aren't supposed to be an optimal target for them.
I Love terminators, they are without a doubt my favorite unit to play against because I win with almost anything against them.
With that in mind I would be perfectly ok with them gaining a 2+ 4+ and giving one the option of upgrading for points to a Terminator Apothacary. That way they could if they want get a 2+4+, 5++ and a 5+ FNP that would make them more survivable.
Unfortunately that doesn't justify them still except as really expensive/hard to kill obj holders. They need more Dakka. To justify the fact that they all walk around wearing tactical dreadnought armor I would also be amendable to the idea of the storm bolters being upgraded to Heavy bolters for 3-5pts each.
Like when we use actual math on him and he ignores it? Why would I want that in this thread?
I do support Heavy Bolters, but it makes little sense from a modeling standpoint. Therefore S5 is the best way to fix Storm Bolters. As I mentioned, it improves PA Grey Knights so we kill two birds with one stone. There still wouldn't be a lot of incentive to take them as a weapon, but now it's at least less...terrible.
Like when we use actual math on him and he ignores it? Why would I want that in this thread?
I do support Heavy Bolters, but it makes little sense from a modeling standpoint. Therefore S5 is the best way to fix Storm Bolters. As I mentioned, it improves PA Grey Knights so we kill two birds with one stone. There still wouldn't be a lot of incentive to take them as a weapon, but now it's at least less...terrible.
There's always kitbashing the models. Also, there are many options that GW doesn't make models for.
The range is actually really important as to not be total victims of scatbikes. Making the stormbolter S5 has a lot of unintended consequences and doesn't improve their range.
Like when we use actual math on him and he ignores it? Why would I want that in this thread?
I do support Heavy Bolters, but it makes little sense from a modeling standpoint. Therefore S5 is the best way to fix Storm Bolters. As I mentioned, it improves PA Grey Knights so we kill two birds with one stone. There still wouldn't be a lot of incentive to take them as a weapon, but now it's at least less...terrible.
There's always kitbashing the models. Also, there are many options that GW doesn't make models for.
The range is actually really important as to not be total victims of scatbikes. Making the stormbolter S5 has a lot of unintended consequences and doesn't improve their range.
They can Deep Strike and I highly suggest Teleport Shunt. Getting close isn't the main issue in this case. We want a reason to take Tactical Terminators, and we want Assault Terminators to be scary, and we want a reason to take Terminator Characters. What's the worst possible consequence?
I've given this a lot of thought based on what a lot of folks have suggested in previous threads, and these are the most practical alterations profile changes I've gathered from those discussions.
4+ invul, with storm shield giving 3++ and counter attack to keep it viable.
2+ armour save plus... TDA should have a unique rule -allows a 5+ FNP against weapons with AP 4 or worse.
It's meant to be the most durable personal armour in the game. I think this would befit that status, without making them broken.
Storm bolters to 24 Assault 3, or 24' Salvo 2/4
Nothing too drastic. Change points as appropriate.
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote: My houserules let stormbolters fire as heavy 3 but cannot make snapshots with that fire mode, and combibolters on chaos variants count as a close combat weapon in melee. I also gave all the prior units wearing terminator armor a 5 point reduction just like the marines.
Terminators aren't that bad off, I don't understand why everyone feels they are garbage...
If you have to house rule something, balance isn't good.
They're bad off because they don't do anything well. Mathhammer shows that an equal number of Banshees can potentially win combat against them, and Terminators aren't supposed to be an optimal target for them.
So what if banshees can potentially win? Anything can potentially win. Adding feel no pain for example only means you are reducing their chance to win by a third. They dropped 25 points for the squad, and have a 12" range advantage over the banshees. Give them an autocannon and how far do you think the banshees get without being mulched?
I houseruled stormbolters to help grey knight strike squads. Their special weapons options are all salvo, so I figured it would give them a niche for holding positions. The terminators buff was a side effect that I think does quite a bit for them as a whole. The points drop was a bone thrown to all the other terminators because it isn't fair for them to have the exact same units but pay more points for them. Terminators deepstirking has one major flaw and that is people expect them to be able to land in front of an entire army and absorb everything thrown at them. Fluff is fluff and all, but nothing outside of serious vehicles and huge creatures should actually be able to pull it off.
My spacewolves termies do well every game, no matter my opponent from tau to necrons they do work, and lots of it. Heavy flamer in a drop pod (because everybody can have those now) and that unit of terminators can simply claim an objective from some poor sod who thought it was theirs, then next turn move out and start punching things repeatedly in the face with giant fists.
Like when we use actual math on him and he ignores it? Why would I want that in this thread?
I do support Heavy Bolters, but it makes little sense from a modeling standpoint. Therefore S5 is the best way to fix Storm Bolters. As I mentioned, it improves PA Grey Knights so we kill two birds with one stone. There still wouldn't be a lot of incentive to take them as a weapon, but now it's at least less...terrible.
There's always kitbashing the models. Also, there are many options that GW doesn't make models for.
The range is actually really important as to not be total victims of scatbikes. Making the stormbolter S5 has a lot of unintended consequences and doesn't improve their range.
They can Deep Strike and I highly suggest Teleport Shunt. Getting close isn't the main issue in this case. We want a reason to take Tactical Terminators, and we want Assault Terminators to be scary, and we want a reason to take Terminator Characters. What's the worst possible consequence?
There is no substitute for range. You deep strike or shuntb and eldar just kill you or run away.
Like when we use actual math on him and he ignores it? Why would I want that in this thread?
I do support Heavy Bolters, but it makes little sense from a modeling standpoint. Therefore S5 is the best way to fix Storm Bolters. As I mentioned, it improves PA Grey Knights so we kill two birds with one stone. There still wouldn't be a lot of incentive to take them as a weapon, but now it's at least less...terrible.
There's always kitbashing the models. Also, there are many options that GW doesn't make models for.
The range is actually really important as to not be total victims of scatbikes. Making the stormbolter S5 has a lot of unintended consequences and doesn't improve their range.
Yup, like making the Heavy Bolter look even worse than it already does.
Actually I just had a fun idea for changing stormbolters.
Range 24" assault 2 S4 ap3 and a special rule that ignores jink saves on a to wound of 6.
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote: My houserules let stormbolters fire as heavy 3 but cannot make snapshots with that fire mode, and combibolters on chaos variants count as a close combat weapon in melee. I also gave all the prior units wearing terminator armor a 5 point reduction just like the marines.
Terminators aren't that bad off, I don't understand why everyone feels they are garbage...
If you have to house rule something, balance isn't good.
They're bad off because they don't do anything well. Mathhammer shows that an equal number of Banshees can potentially win combat against them, and Terminators aren't supposed to be an optimal target for them.
So what if banshees can potentially win? Anything can potentially win. Adding feel no pain for example only means you are reducing their chance to win by a third. They dropped 25 points for the squad, and have a 12" range advantage over the banshees. Give them an autocannon and how far do you think the banshees get without being mulched?
I houseruled stormbolters to help grey knight strike squads. Their special weapons options are all salvo, so I figured it would give them a niche for holding positions. The terminators buff was a side effect that I think does quite a bit for them as a whole. The points drop was a bone thrown to all the other terminators because it isn't fair for them to have the exact same units but pay more points for them. Terminators deepstirking has one major flaw and that is people expect them to be able to land in front of an entire army and absorb everything thrown at them. Fluff is fluff and all, but nothing outside of serious vehicles and huge creatures should actually be able to pull it off.
My spacewolves termies do well every game, no matter my opponent from tau to necrons they do work, and lots of it. Heavy flamer in a drop pod (because everybody can have those now) and that unit of terminators can simply claim an objective from some poor sod who thought it was theirs, then next turn move out and start punching things repeatedly in the face with giant fists.
You clearly misunderstand what I meant when I talked about Banshees potentially winning the combat. mathematically it's ridiculous.
The eldar jetbikes should be 4+ save, I have a full thread of my houserules on here somewhere. Also, all characters that are part of a unit's entry have an additional wound in my houserules, meaning terminator sargents have two wounds a piece. (Doesn't count for eldar, skitarii, and Harlequins)
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote: The eldar jetbikes should be 4+ save, I have a full thread of my houserules on here somewhere. Also, all characters that are part of a unit's entry have an additional wound in my houserules, meaning terminator sargents have two wounds a piece. (Doesn't count for eldar, skitarii, and Harlequins)
I think this is worth noting. For no real reason at all, Eldar Exarchs get improved stats AND another wound.
It seemed to be the way things were lining up, skitarii units, eldar exarchs, harlequin troupes all got extra wounds for their Sargent level characters. Necron royal court did also, but they also got moved to independent status. I feel there is still a decent chance of tau getting the same thing due to not having to change the statlines in another book. We will see.
But for terminators you get the bonus of letting the Sargent tank an extra wound to give the unit more survivability. Meaning challenges aren't so one sided, points for his upgrades feel less wasted, and if a single hit comes off an ap2 weapon like a plasma gun you aren't going to lose fighting capacity or needing to take an independent character.
The bonus wound actually helps all the armies, but terminators getting an extra chance at a 2+ REALLY helps them out.
hanshotfirst wrote: give them a 2+ armor save but make all weapons fired at them -1 S and +1 AP that way only Ap1 weapons ignor there armor
Scratch the +1 AP part but the -1 str would help them against being spammed to death by small arms fire but not making them op. Small bonus that they are wounded on 3s from Tau plasma.
hanshotfirst wrote: give them a 2+ armor save but make all weapons fired at them -1 S and +1 AP that way only Ap1 weapons ignor there armor
Scratch the +1 AP part but the -1 str would help them against being spammed to death by small arms fire but not making them op. Small bonus that they are wounded on 3s from Tau plasma.
Terminators don't need more durability. They just need to be able to do damage do the cost, and need to be able to get into combat easier, seeing as Land Raiders aren't actually good.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Terminators don't need more durability. They just need to be able to do damage do the cost, and need to be able to get into combat easier, seeing as Land Raiders aren't actually good.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Terminators don't need more durability. They just need to be able to do damage do the cost, and need to be able to get into combat easier, seeing as Land Raiders aren't actually good.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Terminators don't need more durability. They just need to be able to do damage do the cost, and need to be able to get into combat easier, seeing as Land Raiders aren't actually good.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Terminators don't need more durability. They just need to be able to do damage do the cost, and need to be able to get into combat easier,
In terms of making them competitive you're correct, but from a fluff point of view (specifically representing units with suitable stats) they do indeed need more durability, as their durability is supposed to be near unmatched, and well, that clearly isn't the case, with them having a considerably lower survivability to points ratio than a hell of a lot of other units out there. I don't mind if they're slow and clumsy or only have moderate firepower, but I want them to be the man tanks they're supposed to be, not dropping like flies to plasma...and lasguns for that matter :(
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Terminators don't need more durability. They just need to be able to do damage do the cost, and need to be able to get into combat easier,
In terms of making them competitive you're correct, but from a fluff point of view (specifically representing units with suitable stats) they do indeed need more durability, as their durability is supposed to be near unmatched, and well, that clearly isn't the case, with them having a considerably lower survivability to points ratio than a hell of a lot of other units out there. I don't mind if they're slow and clumsy or only have moderate firepower, but I want them to be the man tanks they're supposed to be, not dropping like flies to plasma...and lasguns for that matter :(
The mechanics of 40K make it impossible to convey ANY of the fluff. Nothing works right at ALL in the game. Not even common space marines. It's just best to ignore the fluff or rework the whole thing with D20s.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Terminators don't need more durability. They just need to be able to do damage do the cost, and need to be able to get into combat easier,
In terms of making them competitive you're correct, but from a fluff point of view (specifically representing units with suitable stats) they do indeed need more durability, as their durability is supposed to be near unmatched, and well, that clearly isn't the case, with them having a considerably lower survivability to points ratio than a hell of a lot of other units out there. I don't mind if they're slow and clumsy or only have moderate firepower, but I want them to be the man tanks they're supposed to be, not dropping like flies to plasma...and lasguns for that matter :(
The mechanics of 40K make it impossible to convey ANY of the fluff. Nothing works right at ALL in the game. Not even common space marines. It's just best to ignore the fluff or rework the whole thing with D20s.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Terminators don't need more durability. They just need to be able to do damage do the cost, and need to be able to get into combat easier,
In terms of making them competitive you're correct, but from a fluff point of view (specifically representing units with suitable stats) they do indeed need more durability, as their durability is supposed to be near unmatched, and well, that clearly isn't the case, with them having a considerably lower survivability to points ratio than a hell of a lot of other units out there. I don't mind if they're slow and clumsy or only have moderate firepower, but I want them to be the man tanks they're supposed to be, not dropping like flies to plasma...and lasguns for that matter :(
All making them more durable does is to make sure you're still ignoring them. Therefore:
1. S5 Storm Bolters
2. Teleport Shunt
3. 2 heavy Weapons at 5 man squads
4. HoW BAM, done. Now both variants are less likely to not contribute.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Terminators don't need more durability. They just need to be able to do damage do the cost, and need to be able to get into combat easier,
In terms of making them competitive you're correct, but from a fluff point of view (specifically representing units with suitable stats) they do indeed need more durability, as their durability is supposed to be near unmatched, and well, that clearly isn't the case, with them having a considerably lower survivability to points ratio than a hell of a lot of other units out there. I don't mind if they're slow and clumsy or only have moderate firepower, but I want them to be the man tanks they're supposed to be, not dropping like flies to plasma...and lasguns for that matter :(
All making them more durable does is to make sure you're still ignoring them. Therefore:
1. S5 Storm Bolters
2. Teleport Shunt
3. 2 heavy Weapons at 5 man squads
4. HoW BAM, done. Now both variants are less likely to not contribute.
Describe your idea of teleport shunt.
Mine would make them Jetpack infantry
All making them more durable does is to make sure you're still ignoring them.
Not so from what I deduce: Making them even 50% more durable means they're around for 50% longer assuming your opponent is throwing the same amount of firepower at them. Employed correctly that means they'll survive close combat for 50% longer, and for tactical termies that's 50% more powerfist hits. Not something a wise opponent would ignore.
Shooting less so, but they're not supposed to be especially shooty so I'm ok with that. Buffing the storm bolter would help though. I'm not in fan of slapping lots of heavy weapons on them. We already have devs and dev centurions for that.
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Martel732 wrote: [quote=thegreatchimp 665206 8168028 03456f1e9b3a4cd86b020f4e2cb3538c.jpg The mechanics of 40K make it impossible to convey ANY of the fluff. Nothing works right at ALL in the game. Not even common space marines. It's just best to ignore the fluff or rework the whole thing with D20s.
Yes in the interests of keeping a functional game many units particularly marines are toned down compared to what we see in the books, and that's ok to a point. But the forte of each unit should still distinguish them on the board. Jetbikes should have great speed, devastators great firepower, and terminators great durability. Termies just aren't done justice in that regard.
Absolutely agree, the mechanics of the game are hamstrung by being limited to D6. I'd personally like to see a transition to D10, but it's admittedly not likely to happen.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Terminators don't need more durability. They just need to be able to do damage do the cost, and need to be able to get into combat easier,
In terms of making them competitive you're correct, but from a fluff point of view (specifically representing units with suitable stats) they do indeed need more durability, as their durability is supposed to be near unmatched, and well, that clearly isn't the case, with them having a considerably lower survivability to points ratio than a hell of a lot of other units out there. I don't mind if they're slow and clumsy or only have moderate firepower, but I want them to be the man tanks they're supposed to be, not dropping like flies to plasma...and lasguns for that matter :(
All making them more durable does is to make sure you're still ignoring them. Therefore:
1. S5 Storm Bolters
2. Teleport Shunt
3. 2 heavy Weapons at 5 man squads
4. HoW BAM, done. Now both variants are less likely to not contribute.
Describe your idea of teleport shunt.
Mine would make them Jetpack infantry
I'm thinking like how the Dreadknights do it. You get a cool ability to close in from a large distance.
I think the best compromises I've seen so far were...
1. Give them 5+ FNP 2. Give them a re-roll on deep strike scatter
3. 2 heavy weapons per 5 man squad (and drop the costs of those weapons by 5 points)
4. Make stormbolters assault 3 or make them Str 5
5. HoW 6. Make the shooty ones BS 5 and the assaulty ones WS 5
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: They don't need the reroll on the scatter because Teleport Homers are easy to access.
Where does the FNP come from too?
Hey hey now, Chaos doesn't have access to Teleport Homers. Our poor Terminators and Daemons have to randomly teleport onto battlefields still!
FNP would be nice too to make up for how squishy a 1 wound model can be. A 1 in 6 chance of death for an expensive model when Space Marines already die 2 in 6 times.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: They don't need the reroll on the scatter because Teleport Homers are easy to access.
Where does the FNP come from too?
Hey hey now, Chaos doesn't have access to Teleport Homers. Our poor Terminators and Daemons have to randomly teleport onto battlefields still!
FNP would be nice too to make up for how squishy a 1 wound model can be. A 1 in 6 chance of death for an expensive model when Space Marines already die 2 in 6 times.
Fluff wise, it makes little sense. And the core issue is that Terminators don't deal good damage. That's what REALLY needs to be fixed. A minimum squad dropped a whole 25 points, and we still don't want them because, well, no damage would be done anyway.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Fluff wise, it makes little sense. And the core issue is that Terminators don't deal good damage. That's what REALLY needs to be fixed. A minimum squad dropped a whole 25 points, and we still don't want them because, well, no damage would be done anyway.
They're tanks though. The kind you should be able to deep strike into the middle of a pack of enemies and not worry too much about whether they will survive. Dealing damage is what the squishy guys with heavy weapons can already do. Tanking and dealing damage is what our super elite units and HQs can do. If they just made Termies better than Bikes, I'd be sold but currently I'd rather bring the bikes despite them having less firepower than the Termies.
Terminators have limited firepower in a situation where negating firepower is more important due to proximity to the enemy. Don't believe me? Ask Tyranid players how useful Genestealers are. Plenty of damage and death, not so much living through the next turn. What makes them a joke is that whether in close combat or shooting phase, volume of fire invalidates their existence. They are too expensive to fall so easily to a LASGUN.
I mean if you want evidence that they aren't for wholesale slaughter, look no further than their inability to perform a Sweeping Advance. Or heck, their old 2+ armor save using 2d6 pick the highest. They were absolutely invincible back then! Tying up large blobs with superior armor and weapons, tanking heavy hitting characters, or marching through volumes of fire "slow and purposefully" should be their goal as a unit. We have plenty of other units for obliterating models.
Filch wrote: Lets do the 2d6 armor save and pic the highest.
That was basically my original suggestion of giving them a re-rollable 2+ armor save. It's not the feth tons of ap2 and 1 weapons people can get now, it's all the "shoot them 100 times with crappy AP weapons and invalidate their armor anyway" that gets to me.
I feel they just need more options for firepower. Whilst thematically giving them grav, melta, plasma etc dosent fit buffing them to two heavy weapons per 5 man unit, 4 per 10 and buffing storm bolters to something like salvo 2/4 could work.
And two wounds to stop those losses to Grot fire please.....
bomtek80 wrote: I would absolutely take them in a game if they were more durable. That and a lack of firepower is why they don't get played.
The lack of firepower is the real killer. That's my point.
Exactly. Any more durable, and they'll just be ignored like usual.
I find that most of my opponents don't ignore a squad of guys full of powerfists or thunder hammers that teleport right next to their troops. So they usually shoot the feth out of them. That's why I care more about their durability.
I find that most of my opponents don't ignore a squad of guys full of powerfists or thunder hammers that teleport right next to their troops. So they usually shoot the feth out of them. That's why I care more about their durability.
Exactly, and the more durable they are, the more firepower your opponent will have to direct at them.
bomtek80 wrote: I would absolutely take them in a game if they were more durable. That and a lack of firepower is why they don't get played.
The lack of firepower is the real killer. That's my point.
Exactly. Any more durable, and they'll just be ignored like usual.
I find that most of my opponents don't ignore a squad of guys full of powerfists or thunder hammers that teleport right next to their troops. So they usually shoot the feth out of them. That's why I care more about their durability.
I ignore Terminators every time they I see them, and for good reason. They aren't scary.
Probably because they cave to massed fire quite easily, more durability would make them scarier.
That said while an overall buff is a good idea and we shouldn't focus on firepower to the exclusion of all else, buffing firepower is important because otherwise they'll all just go "Wow, Terminators are awesome now! I need to fill my army with TH/SS Assault Terminators!", leaving Tactical Termies in the dust once again.
My idea for the new Storm Bolter profile would be something like this:
24" S4 AP5 Salvo 2/4 Closing Shot
[b]Closing Shot:[/s]
This weapon is design to hold a steady stream of fire even as the unit closes in on the enemy. This weapon always fires at full range and allows the user to Assault after using it, even if they don't have Relentless or Slow And Purposeful.
I tacked on that special rule to not screw over non-Relentless/SnP infantry that use Storm Bolters, like PAGKs. Then when those guys move it's at least just as effective as the original was.
Also considered giving it the Strength and/or AP of the Heavy Bolter (which itself would need a buff by extension but I left it out of this post since it's not that relevant, but could if people wanted/needed to know), but decided against it.
In addition, one guy in that thread suggested Sternguard-style special ammo, as well as some alternate buffed profiles for the SB.
Martel732 wrote: S4 shooting is still too weak. They need heavy bolters at a minimum. I don't care about the sculpts.
What if it was something like the new tau firewarrior guns where the strength and ap get better the closer they are.
My proposed stormbolter profile
At 24" S4 ap5 assault 2
At 12" S5 ap4 assault 2
At 6" S6 ap3 assault 2
This has stopped being a buff terminator topic and become a Buff my Storm Bolter topic.
Chaos Terminators don't even have Storm Bolters. We use Combi-boltors, a single twin-linked shot at most ranges. Considering every single Champion of Chaos I have can buy one for 3pts, any buff to the weapon is going to improve the army itself. I don't think Space Marines or the Storm Boltor need changes at all, the weapon and the army are lethal enough.
Fix Terminators please. If you want to give them dakka, they simply need better weapons than something common infantry carry. One of their options could always be exchanging that power weapon for another gun and being dreadful in close combat.
Arkaine wrote: [ I don't think Space Marines or the Storm Boltor need changes at all, the weapon and the army are lethal enough.
While I agree that durability is the core issue here, from both a fluff and a gameplay point of view, the storm bolter falls awfully short. It doesn't even have a higher rate of fire than a rapid firing bolter. I equip my models with them for the sole reason that they look cool, in full knowledge that its probably points badly spent. That should change.
CrashGordon94 wrote: Probably because they cave to massed fire quite easily, more durability would make them scarier.
That said while an overall buff is a good idea and we shouldn't focus on firepower to the exclusion of all else, buffing firepower is important because otherwise they'll all just go "Wow, Terminators are awesome now! I need to fill my army with TH/SS Assault Terminators!", leaving Tactical Termies in the dust once again.
My idea for the new Storm Bolter profile would be something like this:
24" S4 AP5 Salvo 2/4 Closing Shot
[b]Closing Shot:[/s]
This weapon is design to hold a steady stream of fire even as the unit closes in on the enemy. This weapon always fires at full range and allows the user to Assault after using it, even if they don't have Relentless or Slow And Purposeful.
I tacked on that special rule to not screw over non-Relentless/SnP infantry that use Storm Bolters, like PAGKs. Then when those guys move it's at least just as effective as the original was.
Also considered giving it the Strength and/or AP of the Heavy Bolter (which itself would need a buff by extension but I left it out of this post since it's not that relevant, but could if people wanted/needed to know), but decided against it.
In addition, one guy in that thread suggested Sternguard-style special ammo, as well as some alternate buffed profiles for the SB.
That is why I also suggested upping the amount of heavy weapons a regular squad of termies can take. If 5 guys can have two assault cannons or missle launchers they'd at least be a bit more of a consideration as to their firepower. Heck, make it three heavy weapons per 5 maybe. Drop the point costs on those weapons as well.
Yeah, certainly 2 Heavies per 5 (3 might be pushing it a little though). But the Storm Bolter needs to be at least reasonable on its own too. Particularly since it's seen as pretty lame on other platforms too.
And of course buffing the Storm Bolter would imply lowering the cost of the non-CML Heavies.
I feel the issue with Terminators isn't durability. It is the lack of Firepower and mobility. Their options for mobility are horrible. I feel a once per game teleport like the Dreadknights have might help with that, and the storm bolters should just go away on them. I know they are iconic but the game has changed so much since terminators were introduced that I feel it wouldn't unbalance things to just give them heavy bolters or heavy flamers stock. You could keep their current points value as well with this option. maybe access to the OP grav cannons. Not saying all of these things at once. That might be too much.
twin lightning claws just plain suck. I feel like assault termies should be able to replace one or both lightning claws with, power fist, thunder hammer, chain fist, and storm shield.
The only other way to fix them would be massive points drops to make them competitive with bikes points wise.
A third option would be to nerf bikes
At this point i just don't know. Everything is such a mess with 40k right now.
Yes, it would be a bad idea to give them Heavy Bolters/Flamers default, they have bloody Storm Bolters modeled onto them already, you can't just can't change that without screwing over all those models!
The better solution is to buff the Storm Bolter itself, I already posted a buffed one and you could give it S5 and/or AP4 on top. Of course this indirectly means the Heavy Bolter getting a buff but that's not too relevant here.
They should make cyclones different to normal heavy weapons, you can take a heavy weapon per 5, and a cyclone per 5 men, the cyclones can fire at full bs at a different target, they have sky fire and interceptor also (this shot is outside the normal squad, so if it intercepts on your opponents turn, only the cyclone cannot fire in the termies player turn).
The cyclone also has monster hunter and tank hunter.
Also, I'd go back to the old school... No assault and tactical terminators, mix them back in.
Martel732 wrote: There's only so much you can do with a T4 model that dies at a 16% rate to any wound and costs a small fortune.
Yep. They could give Terminators Strength D melee weapons that strike on initiative (with an appropriate point cost hike...) and they still would die at an alarming rate.
Possibly the ultimate thing they can do for terminators is bring back the option spam of older editions. Let us completely customize them to be the Jack-of-all-Trades problem solver we know they can be. Buy more wounds, buy an even better armor save, buy re-rollable 2+/5+ saves, buy invuln upgrades, buy tactical nuclear weapons, buy personal teleporters, buy void shields, buy jump packs, buy Toughness upgrades, buy Strength upgrades, buy buy buy. Turn it into a total Pay-to-Win unit. The catch is... the more you invest into them, the louder your curses when you roll a 1.
endlesswaltz123 wrote:They should make cyclones different to normal heavy weapons, you can take a heavy weapon per 5, and a cyclone per 5 men, the cyclones can fire at full bs at a different target, they have sky fire and interceptor also (this shot is outside the normal squad, so if it intercepts on your opponents turn, only the cyclone cannot fire in the termies player turn).
The cyclone also has monster hunter and tank hunter.
Also, I'd go back to the old school... No assault and tactical terminators, mix them back in.
Sounds reasonable enough, I suppose. Might be worth tweaking, but not hitting me as a bad idea. I have my doubts about the Interceptor bit, maybe leave that out.
Might be overkill, but it might not.
That I'm absolutely behind, just set 'em up like Deathwing (they're "Tactical" by default but you can swap the weapons for a pair of Lightning Claws for free and TH/SS for 10 points)!
Martel732 wrote:There's only so much you can do with a T4 model that dies at a 16% rate to any wound and costs a small fortune.
Yeah, but that much could be enough. Also T5 and/or re-rollable Armor are on the table too.
Yes, it would be a bad idea to give them Heavy Bolters/Flamers default, they have bloody Storm Bolters modeled onto them already, you can't just can't change that without screwing over all those models!
The better solution is to buff the Storm Bolter itself, I already posted a buffed one and you could give it S5 and/or AP4 on top. Of course this indirectly means the Heavy Bolter getting a buff but that's not too relevant here.
This kind of thing isn't unheard of for GW. I think they would consider it just to sell models. Would it suck, probably. Models with storm bolters (even painted ones) can still be modified and a conversionist could look at is an opportunity to make unique models. While buffing storm bolters and the chaos equivalent is something I agree with, many don't. The majority of people I think agree that Terminators need a change so that is easier to get people to agree with than the storm bolters change. I think s5 and/or ap4 could work (i favor the combo myself) but I think you would also have to change some other weapons too in order to keep them relevant, which would probably make other changes required as well and so on.
There's only so much you can do with a T4 model that dies at a 16% rate to any wound and costs a small fortune.
I agree with you. But the problem is there is too much low ap high str weapons. And I think we both know no one wants there stuff to get nerfed. Which is understandable. A partial fix would be a bigger drop in points (than their last edition). I still think their biggest problem is they are outshined by other units like bikes and devastor centurions. I use those for comparison because they are probably the closest comparison units. Bikes are better primarily because they have superior speed and mobility. The t5 and jink saves help too. And they come in at a lower price point. The advantage of dev cents is they have superior firepower as well. While they do have less mobility, their increased durability and weapon range make up for it. I see terminators and I am just not afraid of them. I know I can easily avoid them most of the time or in the rare chance I actually have to engage them I know my command bike squad will tear them apart before the captain/chapter master in the bike squad even charges them, or I just feed them a low point unit that will most likely keep them tied up long enough for them to not matter (low point for space marines).
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Yep. They could give Terminators Strength D melee weapons that strike on initiative (with an appropriate point cost hike...) and they still would die at an alarming rate.
Possibly the ultimate thing they can do for terminators is bring back the option spam of older editions. Let us completely customize them to be the Jack-of-all-Trades problem solver we know they can be. Buy more wounds, buy an even better armor save, buy re-rollable 2+/5+ saves, buy invuln upgrades, buy tactical nuclear weapons, buy personal teleporters, buy void shields, buy jump packs, buy Toughness upgrades, buy Strength upgrades, buy buy buy. Turn it into a total Pay-to-Win unit. The catch is... the more you invest into them, the louder your curses when you roll a 1.
I don't think they need str D, but I think making them more like command squads is a valid idea. I think if they were more like a command squad and maybe had a one time use teleporter at either their current price point or maybe a lesser price point with most likely a points drop in their options as well they would become viable again.
Actually relevant, and why this idea can't be used.
NorseSig wrote: Models with storm bolters (even painted ones) can still be modified and a conversionist could look at is an opportunity to make unique models.
Doesn't make it okay in the slightest.
NorseSig wrote: While buffing storm bolters and the chaos equivalent is something I agree with, many don't.
They have no grounds to object. It needs to happened, and it otherer weapons need buffs too as a result, hand 'em over!
Ya know this being back. i honestly think a simple "they are veterans" approach would be better.
They may fire special issue ammo from storm bolters or other bolter weapons and or let them take combi weapons and can take two special or heavy weapons per 5.
thats plenty of useful shooting.
Assault terminators are...... ok? honestly dont got anything for this one since most of the time they often have tank characters.
i feel a better use of Space marine teleport homers would be more interesting.
CrashGordon94 wrote: Yes, it would be a bad idea to give them Heavy Bolters/Flamers default, they have bloody Storm Bolters modeled onto them already, you can't just can't change that without screwing over all those models!
The better solution is to buff the Storm Bolter itself, I already posted a buffed one and you could give it S5 and/or AP4 on top. Of course this indirectly means the Heavy Bolter getting a buff but that's not too relevant here.
I posted a buffed stormbolter idea too, but it didn't even get considered. Its just the way things go.
On a side note there is no need to be hostile towards anyone. I am not insulting you or otherwise putting you down. I am not even disagreeing with you.
And I never said it would be okay to do this.
It was nothing more than a suggestion.
This is after all a discussion thread. I am not someone who immediately dismisses an idea. I like to think about it and discuss the pros and cons of the idea. One of the problems I often see in these threads is everyone thinks their idea is the only right way to solve a problem and refuse to consider or even discuss the pros and cons of other people's ideas.
One of the problems I often see in these threads is everyone thinks their idea is the only right way to solve a problem and refuse to consider or even discuss the pros and cons of other people's ideas.
Well some, not everyone. I follow threads that attempt to address bad aspects of the rules and unit imbalance, and by and large I've found they're fairly constructive. You often dive in with an idea and end up modifying it based on responses or other's suggestions. Or you get agreement and you know you know you're on track....or it becomes apparent it's a terrible idea and you drop it
Desubot wrote:
They may fire special issue ammo from storm bolters or other bolter weapons
This actually came up in a previous thread, the guy had profiles for it and all.
DoomShakaLaka wrote:I posted a buffed stormbolter idea too, but it didn't even get considered. Its just the way things go.
Think I missed it, could you link?
NorseSig wrote:I mentioned it because YOU brought it up.
Nope, never said a word about GW's habits here.
NorseSig wrote:This is after all a discussion thread. I am not someone who immediately dismisses an idea. I like to think about it and discuss the pros and cons of the idea. One of the problems I often see in these threads is everyone thinks their idea is the only right way to solve a problem and refuse to consider or even discuss the pros and cons of other people's ideas.
The Heavy Bolter thing is a horrible idea which SHOULD be dismissed. It would serve to completely screw over anyone with an older model.
Well some, not everyone. I follow threads that attempt to address bad aspects of the rules and unit imbalance, and by and large I've found they're fairly constructive. You often dive in with an idea and end up modifying it based on responses or other's suggestions. Or you get agreement and you know you know you're on track....or it becomes apparent it's a terrible idea and you drop it
You are correct I should not have said everyone, but I have noticed a good portion of our community as a whole does this (not just dakka).
CrashGordon94 wrote: The Heavy Bolter thing is a horrible idea which SHOULD be dismissed. It would serve to completely screw over anyone with an older model.
Likewise, I don't think the answer is buffing a weapon even other marines can take. Storm bolters are already better than Bolters as Terminators are better than Marines and twice the cost. The unit feels like a "double" troop choice. They rapid fire twice as far, they cost twice as much, they have twice the armor, even twice the heavy weapon selections if you take a squad of 10. Theoretically, with their invuln save, their deep strike power, relentless, and power weapons, they're already decently priced. So why does it all fall flat? Because of AP2 weapons making them have HALF the wounds.
So as a compromise, they need both firepower and durability. Firepower they are already close... tactical squads can bring two meltas or two plasmas, so Termies should double that to four or more. Having every Terminator able to take plasmas, meltas, and heavy bolters as an upgrade would make them useful. They should also have access to Lascannons, Missile Launchers, and other upgrades that tacticals can bring instead of just the Heavy Flamer and Reaper Autocannon. Bringing two of those per squad would be great. Essentially, make them what they already are -- a double strength tactical squad.
But then there's the durability problem. Having twice the firepower is worse than having two tactical squads if they die so easily to AP weapons. Personally, I think Grey Knight Paladins are Terminators done right. They have twice the wounds and an upgraded Toughness. If you're going to double everything, then double EVERYTHING. They even get great invuln saves by taking storm shields.
Currently, there's no reason to take Terminators because two Tactical Squads will have more firepower, more wounds, and cost about the same in points. That's a problem. Centurions are the only real Terminators.
Likewise, I don't think the answer is buffing a weapon even other marines can take.
And don't end up doing so due to them being considered so bad.
Rhinos already have them and anyone who wants to assault into combat should be getting one. They can rapid fire from 24" out and still close into combat if the enemy is closer than that. They are superior to bolters easily. Any better and they'd be on the level of Heavy Bolters, which I should remind you are a Heavy weapon choice. Next we're buffing those too and so on so on until every weapon is stronger just because you feel anti-infantry weapons are weak. These Storm Bolters are my bane as a Chaos player and I wish I had their utility myself, being such a close combat oriented faction. Assault 2 or Rapid Fire... not a hard call at all.
Likewise, I don't think the answer is buffing a weapon even other marines can take.
And don't end up doing so due to them being considered so bad.
Rhinos already have them and anyone who wants to assault into combat should be getting one. They can rapid fire from 24" out and still close into combat if the enemy is closer than that. They are superior to bolters easily. Any better and they'd be on the level of Heavy Bolters, which I should remind you are a Heavy weapon choice. Next we're buffing those too and so on so on until every weapon is stronger just because you feel anti-infantry weapons are weak. These Storm Bolters are my bane as a Chaos player and I wish I had their utility myself, being such a close combat oriented faction. Assault 2 or Rapid Fire... not a hard call at all.
TBF Heavy Bolters suck ass.
CrashGordon94 wrote:Think I missed it, could you link?
Noted, but they're better than Gravs against Orks. They're also S5/AP4, which is what he wants Storm Bolters to be.
Rather than comparing all your weapons to the Eldar book, realize the Storm Bolter is an amazing weapon on its own. Termies have other problems, like a lack of Special/Heavy choices.
The storm bolter is NOT an amazing weapon. It's terrible for the price you pay in this case. As a 5 pt add on to a tank, its okay, but as the main weapon on a 35 pt model? NOPE.
Noted, but they're better than Gravs against Orks. They're also S5/AP4, which is what he wants Storm Bolters to be.
Rather than comparing all your weapons to the Eldar book, realize the Storm Bolter is an amazing weapon on its own. Termies have other problems, like a lack of Special/Heavy choices.
No the Storm Bolter is NOT an amazing weapon. At all. It is strictly underwhelming in all circumstances.
And how is it fair to say that the Heavy Bolter does better than grav against its ideal target? Grav is SUPPOSED to be a heavy armor killer, and Heavy Bolters are supposed to be a horde killer. The difference is one of these actually does its job.
Martel732 wrote: The storm bolter is NOT an amazing weapon. It's terrible for the price you pay in this case. As a 5 pt add on to a tank, its okay, but as the main weapon on a 35 pt model? NOPE.
See above post... they're basically x2 tacticals. The storm bolter is the price of wound models, the special/heavy weapons should be a Terminator's real firepower. This even used to be the case in older editions, I have no idea why they gutted the weapon selection. Buffing Storm Bolters would only further invalidate Terminators and make Bike squads the only thing anyone plays.
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DoomShakaLaka wrote: No the Storm Bolter is NOT an amazing weapon. At all. It is strictly underwhelming in all circumstances.
When was the last time you cracked open a codex that wasn't your own? You might not find it amazing with all your other weapon options at this point, but it's better than you believe it to be.
Martel732 wrote: The storm bolter is NOT an amazing weapon. It's terrible for the price you pay in this case. As a 5 pt add on to a tank, its okay, but as the main weapon on a 35 pt model? NOPE.
. Buffing Storm Bolters would only further invalidate Terminators and make Bike squads the only thing anyone plays.
I'm not following this logic. Bikes don't have stormbolters.
I think because the cost differential and lack of firepower differential makes the bike a better choice in all cases. The twin linked boltgun has more firepower up close and only somewhat less at 13-24".
DoomShakaLaka wrote: I'm not following this logic. Bikes don't have stormbolters.
Maybe not in YOUR codex. There's more than just the basic Space Marines. Which is another point... tons of special Storm Bolters exist on special characters. Theirs are S4, your troops have S5. Totally makes sense.
Again, venture outside your own codex guys. You'll be surprised how puny the weapons in other factions are. (Not Eldar. Or Tau. Or Necrons.)
Yes indeed, buffing the Storm Bolter and Heavy Bolter. Both are weak and in need of it. Would "knock-on" to the Heavy Stubber, maybe the Assault Cannon too, that's about it.
DoomShakaLaka wrote: I'm not following this logic. Bikes don't have stormbolters.
Maybe not in YOUR codex. There's more than just the basic Space Marines. Which is another point... tons of special Storm Bolters exist on special characters. Theirs are S4, your troops have S5. Totally makes sense.
Again, venture outside your own codex guys. You'll be surprised how puny the weapons in other factions are. (Not Eldar. Or Tau. Or Necrons.)
Actually I think Imperial weapons are some of the worst in the game. Even Orks have a better gun than the boltgun. ORKS.
DoomShakaLaka wrote: I'm not following this logic. Bikes don't have stormbolters.
Maybe not in YOUR codex. There's more than just the basic Space Marines. Which is another point... tons of special Storm Bolters exist on special characters. Theirs are S4, your troops have S5. Totally makes sense.
Again, venture outside your own codex guys. You'll be surprised how puny the weapons in other factions are. (Not Eldar. Or Tau. Or Necrons.)
Why wouldn't they be changed as well? Why are you assuming that we wouldn't change them?
Instead of saying "read more codices" please give some examples of what your talking about.
Edit:
I have a sneaking suspicion you play Chaos marines.
Leave storm bolters alone. Give terminators real weapons. Done. It's simple. It's effective. Start with heavy bolters, and if that doesn't cut it, go to assault cannons or autocannons.
Was it due to me outright saying "These Storm Bolters are my bane as a Chaos player" about ten posts ago? Anyhow, might want to check on the Ravenwing bikers. The answer was Dark Angels.
You're finding weapons weak so the answer is change everything. All because Storm Bolters don't make sense on Terminators. Instead of just fixing Terminators and giving them access to heavier weapons... and when the Heavy Bolter is brought up, that doesn't work because you want your models to stay the same... Nope, we have to change a weapon that is already Assault 2 into a mini Heavy Bolter without the Heavy.
S4 AP6 Assault 2, 18" - Ork Shoota Boys
S4 AP5 Rapid Fire 24" - The guys with twice the ballistic skill
Tell you what, here's your fixed Storm Bolter. Free of charge.
Storm Bolter - Rapid Fire - 24" - S5, AP4
Nerfed for non-Terminators, but stronger to compensate. Relentless Terminators don't care about the Rapid Fire. Ravenwing Bikers rejoice because they don't either.
I already suggested fixes to Termies above that would more than make up for your perceived weakness of their default weapon. The entirety was dismissed by saying Storm Bolters suck. You guys want to focus so much on Storm Bolters, be my guest, but name the topic appropriately next time. Bad enough you hijacked a Termy thread and turned it into a buff Storm Bolters thread.
master of ordinance wrote: The Lasgun.
The Hellgun.
The sodding Hellpistol.
The Imperial Guard Shotgun.
The list goes on
Yes, yes we are all aware IG sucks. I've posted ideas in the 'fix IG' threads that would help them, although I haven't gotten around to coming up with a fix to hellguns.
You're finding weapons weak so the answer is change everything. All because Storm Bolters don't make sense on Terminators. Instead of just fixing Terminators and giving them access to heavier weapons... and when the Heavy Bolter is brought up, that doesn't work because you want your models to stay the same... Nope, we have to change a weapon that is already Assault 2 into a mini Heavy Bolter without the Heavy.
The arms race is on. The old standby weapons simply don't measure up anymore. I don't have a problem with them having heavy bolters..at all. That is other people in the thread. I was merely suggesting some buffs to stormbolters, because they suck accross the board, and they already have them.
Your proposed profile seems good to me, except its actually a kick in the nuts to SoB and the goofy guardsman that equipped it.
But the IG suck less per point spent than tactical terminators. Especially against the almighty scatterlaser. A weapon that terminators are supposed to be good against. THAT'S irony.
master of ordinance wrote: Sorry people but I could not help but notice that you asked for inferior weapons to the Stormbolter....
I was only trying to help!
But you didn't list anything actually inferior. You have to take points into account, or else terminators wouldn't be in a bad place to begin with.
Stormtroopers. You can preach bad guns on bad units which are expensive after you have used 14 point 'Not Marines' with 18" S 3 guns.
The Lasguns cheapness does not make up for its pathetic stats either.
Besides, I thought that you just wanted guns with inferior stats (which all those do).
Martel732 wrote: Leave storm bolters alone. Give terminators real weapons. Done. It's simple. It's effective. Start with heavy bolters, and if that doesn't cut it, go to assault cannons or autocannons.
Or better yet, buff a weapon that needs buffing so that people don't have to change loads and loads of models, fixing both a problematic weapon AND ones of the issues with a problematic unit, one that needs some focus as fixing it also fixes its relative issues compared to a related unit.
The Storm Bolter needs some focus because:
1) It's also seen as bad on other stuff (people don't seem keen to stick it on vehicles that can take it, for one. And it's not seen as an attractive option for squads that can have it)
2) Changing the default weapon screws up all those models, so that idea is a complete non-option.
3) Heavy Weapon spam would be too unbalanced in the opposite direction.
4) While buffs to the melee and durability stuff are also needed, not giving their shooting some attention too would just keep funneling people over to the Assault-focused variety, leaving the shooty ones in the dust.
IG problems don't need focus because that's off-topic.
Will look over triplegrim's suggestions in the morning.
And you are 100% wrong to not care about the sculpts.
It's not okay to just screw over peoples' collections like that, if you don't care that's a problem with you and your attitude to the whole thing.
endlesswaltz123 wrote:They should make cyclones different to normal heavy weapons, you can take a heavy weapon per 5, and a cyclone per 5 men, the cyclones can fire at full bs at a different target, they have sky fire and interceptor also (this shot is outside the normal squad, so if it intercepts on your opponents turn, only the cyclone cannot fire in the termies player turn).
The cyclone also has monster hunter and tank hunter.
Also, I'd go back to the old school... No assault and tactical terminators, mix them back in.
Sounds reasonable enough, I suppose. Might be worth tweaking, but not hitting me as a bad idea. I have my doubts about the Interceptor bit, maybe leave that out.
Might be overkill, but it might not.
That I'm absolutely behind, just set 'em up like Deathwing (they're "Tactical" by default but you can swap the weapons for a pair of Lightning Claws for free and TH/SS for 10 points)!
Martel732 wrote:There's only so much you can do with a T4 model that dies at a 16% rate to any wound and costs a small fortune.
Spoiler:
Yeah, but that much could be enough. Also T5 and/or re-rollable Armor are on the table too.
I can't believe I missed this post because its absolutely
T5 would totally work, and rerollable 2+ armor saves are nothing to sneeze at. I say pick one of those, and buff the shooting a little bit and you've got a unit thats actually good.
Also that was a perfectly used video clip. IMO No offense Martel, but it was funny
2+ rerollable would at least make the Eldar move their WK over to stomp a mudhole in your terminators. With T5, the scatterbikes would just LOLZ you to death from 36" away still.
Martel732 wrote: 2+ rerollable would at least make the Eldar move their WK over to stomp a mudhole in your terminators. With T5, the scatterbikes would just LOLZ you to death from 36" away still.
This is probably true.
So I'm thinking 2+ rerollable armor saves.
Somewhere before I had an idea to boost the standard 5+ invul from termie armor to a 3+ and then make a stormshield let you reroll failed invul saves.
Then make Stormbolters Range 36" Rapid Fire S5 ap4.
Now they are scary oooOOOHHHH
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master of ordinance wrote: Stormtroopers. You can preach bad guns on bad units which are expensive after you have used 14 point 'Not Marines' with 18" S 3 guns.
The Lasguns cheapness does not make up for its pathetic stats either.
Besides, I thought that you just wanted guns with inferior stats (which all those do).
Don't worry Master of Ordinance, I have LOTS of ideas to help fix guard. I would never forget about you guys. One thread at a time though.
How about instead of S5 AP4 36", make them special issue ammo for terminators? That gives tac terminators desperately needed versatility, and doesn't buff armies like GK. Who should get nothing. Ever.
DoomShakaLaka wrote: I'm not following this logic. Bikes don't have stormbolters.
Maybe not in YOUR codex. There's more than just the basic Space Marines. Which is another point... tons of special Storm Bolters exist on special characters. Theirs are S4, your troops have S5. Totally makes sense.
Again, venture outside your own codex guys. You'll be surprised how puny the weapons in other factions are. (Not Eldar. Or Tau. Or Necrons.)
Was it due to me outright saying "These Storm Bolters are my bane as a Chaos player" about ten posts ago? Anyhow, might want to check on the Ravenwing bikers. The answer was Dark Angels.
First of all, you might want to check Ravenwing bikers, as they don't have storm bolters. No bikers do (I mean, maybe they do in "YOUR codex"). Second of all, decide what you actually want to argue; you say that "the Storm Bolter is an amazing weapon on its own" (therefore, Terminators do not have a lack in firepower due to having "amazing" weapons), but you also say "If you want to give them dakka, they simply need better weapons than something common infantry carry". What "common infantry"? Are you referring to Sergeants? If you are, then you really need to realise that a single model having a few extra S4 shots in a squad full of S4 shooters is not substantial. You should also realise that being a doubled-up version of something else is not really a battlefield role, or at all interesting. If we wanted twice the Tactical Marines, we'd take twice the Tactical Marines (that said, they actually don't have twice the firepower at all, just a range advantage). What we want is our beloved, iconic units living up to what we love them for. Even if we ignore the modelling concerns, storm bolters should be changed because they are an iconic Terminator weapon.
Your logic does not follow at all, nor does it lend itself to any kind of coherent argument; you are simultaneously saying that Terminators have enough firepower and that they also don't.
My guess is that you are so opposing the concept of buffing storm bolters because Chaos Terminators don't have them. Well, do you know what that means? Buff combi-bolters, too. It's really very simple.
Let's break down the issues. Durability is another concern (I'm in favour of T5, myself), so we'll just talk shooting. Bear in mind, I do not approve of the S5 approach at all, nor Rending or whatever. I just want it to have more shots, maybe through Salvo so their Relentless is useful.
"Tactical" Terminators lack firepower. They come with storm bolters by default. There are three possible solutions to this:
- Give Terminator armour some special unique rule that allows models to fire their storm bolters more effectively. I very much dislike this approach, even if it is "neater" compared to a flat buff to the weapon itself.
- Give Terminators full access to more powerful weapons; the heavy bolter, the assault cannon, the reaper autocannon, and others, thereby removing the crappy storm bolter entirely. See "iconic".
- Buff their default weapon, the storm bolter and combi-bolter. This effects things other than Tactical/Chaos Terminators; Sergeants and Aspiring Champions mostly, as well as a few Sisters of Battle and many Imperial vehicles that take it as an upgrade. The Grey Knights have their unique, wrist-mounted storm bolter - make it actually unique and give it its own profile. The vehicle-mounted ones are only taken to protect another weapon from Weapon Destroyed, and their offensive power is a joke. Sisters can take them, yeah, but they don't. What does that tell you?
So, what do we do? Clearly many people are in favour of buffing the storm bolter alongside the Terminator, even if we disagree on how exactly this can be done. Some might say T5 Terminators with Salvo 3/5 storm bolters, while others might say 3+ FNP Terminators with Assault 4 storm bolters. The point is that these threads keep going this way for a reason, as I said previously. Neither piece of the whole is good at what it is supposed to be. Their armour isn't strong enough and their guns aren't powerful enough. Why are we not allowed to make both better?
Anyway, I've long been a supporter of T5. I don't like the re-rollable armour save as it's just weird and would be unique to them, which is not good. Really, just give them FNP; it's the existing "extra save" rule. I forget what I made my storm bolters, though (I have a very, very long list of rule changes I want to make, so much so that I'm actually just going to print my own rulebooks for my friends and I to use).
EDIT: We really shouldn't balance anything against scatterbikes. Sure, "scatterbikes are the meta" or whatever, but if we're in the realm where houserules are acceptable, we should be thinking of balancing scatterbikes, too, not bringing things up to their level. That's a bad road to tread.
Martel732 wrote: How about instead of S5 AP4 36", make them special issue ammo for terminators? That gives tac terminators desperately needed versatility, and doesn't buff armies like GK. Who should get nothing. Ever.
I'm not getting the whole anti-Gk thing, but sure that could work.
You know what you literally don't have to change the profile or anything if you give them SIA, just add the rule to their profile. It replaces whatever profile the gun originally had when its used. No need to re-write it or anything.
The GK have so much karma for 5th ed to pay back. Also, they are one of the few good matchups for BA by pure chance. No buffs for them. GK are better against the field, but BA and run away and shoot them with grav! Victory for the coward angels!
Martel732 wrote: The GK have so much karma for 5th ed to pay back. Also, they are one of the few good matchups for BA by pure chance. No buffs for them. GK are better against the field, but BA and run away and shoot them with grav! Victory for the coward angels!
Thats hardly a legitimate reason.
Why not buff GK AND Blood Angels.
Starting with the Blood Angels shooting phase, and giving them all the regular psychic disciplines. Good grief GW is stupid
Martel732 wrote: The GK have so much karma for 5th ed to pay back. Also, they are one of the few good matchups for BA by pure chance. No buffs for them. GK are better against the field, but BA and run away and shoot them with grav! Victory for the coward angels!
Thats hardly a legitimate reason.
Why not buff GK AND Blood Angels.
Starting with the Blood Angels shooting phase, and giving them all the regular psychic disciplines. Good grief.
I'm half joking. Or maybe two-thirds joking. Or maybe one-third joking. I really hate the mary-sue Grey Knights. Worse than any Xeno faction or even Chaos. Because BA can understand wanting to get bloody from time to time. The GKs are sticks in the mud with a stick up their power armor. Draigo being not remotely a fair model doesn't help either.
If there were a supplement where Dante led the BA against the GK for being general fethtards, I would buy it in a heartbeat.
Martel732 wrote: T5 is useless man. Especially on a one wound model. Eldar will still gak all over you trivially. And grav. And rending. I could go on.
We really shouldn't balance anything against scatterbikes. Sure, "scatterbikes are the meta" or whatever, but if we're in the realm where houserules are acceptable, we should be thinking of balancing scatterbikes, too, not bringing things up to their level. That's a bad road to tread.
You could go on, yes, but that'd be missing the point. We shouldn't say "Terminators need 2++ and 20 Hull Points and 2+ Reanimation Protocols" because Eldar and Necrons exist. The state of the game is not good, and the whole point of fixing rules is to, well, fix them rather than allow broken rules to spread their brokenness throughout the rest of the game.
Well, have fun in your game where every single model has 10s in every stat and costs 35ppm, so effectively everything in the game is resolved on 4+. Sure, that'd be balance.
Martel732 wrote: As I said, T5 is useless on a terminator for multiple reasons.
Nurgle Terminators disprove this. If the T5 was standard, it'd help. Sure, they wouldn't be invincible, but they don't need to be.
triplegrim wrote:One, or more of the following:
1. Let them choose to Shoot OR Assault out of deepstrike.
Certainly, honestly I'd say it should be a game-wide thing with some adjustment, but that would be another discussion.
triplegrim wrote:One, or more of the following:
2. Give them 2 wounds, like paladins.
I can dig it.
triplegrim wrote:One, or more of the following:
3. Give their sergeant 2W, and some ability, like the exarchs.
Definitely, along with letting them at least choose which Power Weapon they have, if not just giving them access to the Terminator Weapons list.
triplegrim wrote:One, or more of the following:
4. Let them attack with power fist at initative.
That would be a little bonkers unless it was conditional somehow.
triplegrim wrote:One, or more of the following:
5. Let them get a Land Raider for 150 points.
The LR family seems like it just needs a general points drop, not just as DTs for Termies.
150 might be a bit low though.
triplegrim wrote:One, or more of the following:
6. Let them have an in-game teleport-effect. Letting them deepstrike from the table to the table, quickly repositioning them.
A bit odd, but could work.
triplegrim wrote:One, or more of the following:
7. Give them Heavy Flamer and Assault cannon for free.
NOPE
Free Heavy Weapons would be utterly ridiculous and OP.
triplegrim wrote:One, or more of the following:
8. Give them 2 cyclone missiles per 5 terminators
2 Heavies per 5 in general would be good.
triplegrim wrote:One, or more of the following:
for free
NOPE, for previously stated reason.
triplegrim wrote:One, or more of the following:
and with AA version of strenght 6.
I can dig it, maybe as a separate upgrade a la Flakk Missiles for the standard missile launcher.
triplegrim wrote:One, or more of the following:
9. Give them feel no pain 5+. They should basically be immune to small arms fire anyway.
Eh, not too sold on it to be honest but I won't discount it.
Martel732 wrote:It's not screwing anyone over. Just add a few bits and you're done. Or don't.
It absolutely is screwing people over! "adding a few bits" is an understatement, that would require cutting up and replacing the guns on MANY models. Some people have loads of them.
DoomShakaLaka wrote:T5 would totally work, and rerollable 2+ armor saves are nothing to sneeze at. I say pick one of those, and buff the shooting a little bit and you've got a unit thats actually good.
Also that was a perfectly used video clip. IMO No offense Martel, but it was funny
Indeed. I will say that rerollable 2+ needs the ITC style restriction (reroll is 4+), though.
Thank you!
Martel732 wrote:2+ rerollable would at least make the Eldar move their WK over to stomp a mudhole in your terminators. With T5, the scatterbikes would just LOLZ you to death from 36" away still.
A couple things:
1) Not everything in the game is a Scatterbike, stop obsessing over them. In fact, just take this to a relevant thread and leave it there.
2) It would absolutely make a difference to Scatter Lasers, in fact it makes a difference to everything but Grav, Poisoned, Sniper S2, S7, S10 and Destroyer. A reaonable list of thing, but just think about all the stuff that DOESN'T include! S1 can no longer hurt them, S3-6 have a harder time wounding and S8/9 no longer cause Instant Death.
DoomShakaLaka wrote:
Somewhere before I had an idea to boost the standard 5+ invul from termie armor to a 3+ and then make a stormshield let you reroll failed invul saves.
It was actually standard invul to 4++ and Storm Shields letting you re-roll THAT.
3++ standard with SS rereoll would be nuts!
DoomShakaLaka wrote:
Then make Stormbolters Range 36" Rapid Fire S5 ap4.
Now they are scary oooOOOHHHH
Not a good plan, range is too much and Rapid Fire ain't a good choice.
I went with Salvo 2/4 since they're supposed be basically two Boltguns (I'm reserving the "literally two Bolters fired as one weapon" idea for Combi-Bolters), I made up the Closing Shot rule so infantry using it without Relentless/SnP wouldn't be screwed over. It would effectively be Assault 2 on the move and Assault 4 standing still.
Though I'm open to other profiles (for instance Salvo 2/3 might be better, or possibly Assault 3).
I will also admit I'm personally not sold on S5 or AP4 for them, but I'll try and keep an open mind.
Martel732 wrote:How about instead of S5 AP4 36", make them special issue ammo for terminators? That gives tac terminators desperately needed versatility, and doesn't buff armies like GK. Who should get nothing. Ever.
Special ammo is a good idea and one of two real options for it. It's either buffing the SB or special ammo.
Your grudge against GK though... They're actually subpar right now and in need of some help.
There's no such thing as "karma" for armies either. Just because you hate an army doesn't mean you get to say it should suck. I hate Blood Angels and Space Wolves, but I don't want them to be weak because of that.
Martel732 wrote:If everything is broken, nothing is broken.
No, if everything is broken then everything is broken (duh!) and you end up with a horrible mess of a game.
Scatterbikes are not the standard, never use them as such.
There's no logic behind making storm bolters S5 or AP4. he heavy bolter is already S5 AP4, so either way you'd be either making an inferior heavy bolter (pointless) or relegating the heavy bolter (undesireable). SB's are a double barreled bolter, so they fire the same shells at the same velocity. They should have twice the Rate of Fire. That's the only thing they need. They're not supposed to be big monster slayers, they're bullet hoses for thinning down hordes. Neither are terminators supposed to be on par with devs or centurion devs firepower wise. Firepower is the speciality of those units and it's why they're in the codex. If you want firepower you leave your terminators at home and take devs. If you want decent cc ability, supreme staying power with some fire support you take tactical termiantors. So on this front their durability is the only thing that needs addressing, and as mentioned it will indirectly make them deadlier in cc, and therefore not ignorable.
What would people think about giving them a 1+ armour, effectively giving them a 2+ armour that is only pent rated by the most powerful weapons (melta, and a few other rare occurences
danny1995 wrote: What would people think about giving them a 1+ armour, effectively giving them a 2+ armour that is only pent rated by the most powerful weapons (melta, and a few other rare occurences
That doesn't actually fix the problem they have so no.
@Chimp: I do see what you mean, and that's why I'm reluctant to give S5 or AP4. And why Salvo 2/4 (or perhaps Salvo 2/3 or Assault 3) was the biggest one I was pushing for (alongside a special rule if it becomes Salvo so non-Relentless/SnP peeps are screwed over).
I would say that when buffing the SB's rate of fire I'd also do it to the HB, aside from "outrunning" the Storm Bolter's new profile it also seems to need a big rate of fire boost of its own. I was thinking Salvo 3/6 (though I might go for 3/5, 4/5 or 4/6. I'm much less sure about this one) and Pinning. As a side effect, if the Storm Bolter WAS made S5 AP4 it still wouldn't outclass the Heavy Bolter under this scheme! By extension I'd probably give the Heavy Stubber whatever rate of fire the Heavy Bolter got, maybe Pinning but a lot less inclined to hand that to the HS.
While durability along with some mild melee tweaks are needed, firepower needs some attention too as Assault Termies tend to rule over Tactical Termies as of now. Buffing everything but firepower would certainly make Ass-Terms more relevant but would continue to leave Tac-Terms in the dust.
Higher ROF and/or special ammo on the SBs plus 2 Heavy Weapons per 5 guys would probably be enough. Also I'd recommend merging the two varieties Deathwing-style.
danny1995 wrote: What would people think about giving them a 1+ armour, effectively giving them a 2+ armour that is only pent rated by the most powerful weapons (melta, and a few other rare occurences
That wouldn't be good, nobody really has an issue with Plasma and the like killing Terminators.
The big issues would be:
Enhanced Armor save so massed fire doesn't bring them down quite as trivially.
Better Invulnerable save so it takes more AP1/2 firepower to bring them down (still doable but takes more of it).
Higher Toughness for general durability.
The sad part Crash is that even if you gave terminators all assault cannons for say, 45ppm, they're still inferior to scatterbikes. Just think about that a second.
But, as pointed out elsewhere, that's because scatterbikes are ludicrously overpowered to the max, not because Terminators with assault cannons are stinky.
jade_angel wrote: But, as pointed out elsewhere, that's because scatterbikes are ludicrously overpowered to the max, not because Terminators with assault cannons are stinky.
No, they'd actually be good. And desirable. As opposed to most storm bolters modifications. Higher rate of fire S4 is higher rate of fire fail.
Right, that was my point - assault cannon Terminators are good. Some would argue OP: 20 S6/AP4 shots at 24", with actual Rending as opposed to Bladestorm, at BS4, is no joke! That's a threat to absolutely anything, even AV15 (admittedly, longshot glances, but how much AV15 is there, anyway?) and T10.
Pointing out that something like that is inferior to scatterbikes is not a testament to how underpowered Terminators are, but to how overpowered scatterbikes (and arguably shuricannonbikes) are.
If scatterbikes didn't exist, or were nerfed down to something reasonable, would you still be suggesting that tactical Terminators should have free assault cannons on every model? (I would agree that the storm bolter is underwhelming, though).
jade_angel wrote: Right, that was my point - assault cannon Terminators are good. Some would argue OP: 20 S6/AP4 shots at 24", with actual Rending as opposed to Bladestorm, at BS4, is no joke! That's a threat to absolutely anything, even AV15 (admittedly, longshot glances, but how much AV15 is there, anyway?) and T10.
Pointing out that something like that is inferior to scatterbikes is not a testament to how underpowered Terminators are, but to how overpowered scatterbikes (and arguably shuricannonbikes) are.
If scatterbikes didn't exist, or were nerfed down to something reasonable, would you still be suggesting that tactical Terminators should have free assault cannons on every model? (I would agree that the storm bolter is underwhelming, though).
My points is that scat bikes DO exist and so all-AC terminator for 45 ppm would not be a crazy thing.
Ok so here is a compilation of all the good ideas for Terminators put into stat form.
Its a little bit different than what I was originally thinking, but let me know if this works for everybody.
150pts (4x Terminators, 1x Terminator Sgt)
Wargear: Wargear, Terminator Armor*, Power Weapon, Godwyn pattern Stormbolter
Special Rules: And They Shall Know No Fear, Chapter Tactics, Combat Squads, Plasma Hardened Armor*
May take up to 5 more Terminators for 30ppm.
Each model may replace its stormbolter or power weapon with a
Lightning claw-2pts
Power fist-2pts
Storm Shield-3pts
Chainfist-7pts
Thunder Hammer-7pts
Up to 2 models per 5 may choose options from the heavy weapons list.
Terminator Armor- Confers a 2+ Armor Save , a 4+ invulnerable save, and the Relentless special rule. Models wearing Terminator Armor may choose to enter the game via Deep Strike following the rules for Deep Strike Reserves. Models Wearing Terminator Armor may never make sweeping advances.
Plasma Hardened Armor- Models with this rule may choose to take invulnerable saves after they failed their armor save. (This is basically that 2+ 4+ from ITC you were talking about)
Godwyn pattern Stormbolter- range 24" S4 ap5 salvo 2/3
DoomShakaLaka wrote: Ok so here is a compilation of all the good ideas for Terminators put into stat form.
Damn near perfect imho. Only thing I'd personally prefer is improved sb stats rather than special ammo, as that would allow sternguard to retain that unique advantage. (Not sure if other models get special issue ammo -Deathwatch perhaps?)
I would say that when buffing the SB's rate of fire I'd also do it to the HB, aside from "outrunning" the Storm Bolter's new profile it also seems to need a big rate of fire boost of its own.
Salvo 2/4 is ideal. You're right in advocating that, rather than Assault 3 as I'd originally suggested, as it would give too much of a boost to power armoured troops (grey knights players would have a field day). & yeson that note heavy bolter needs some love. It's rubbish compared to autocannon and assualt cannons. I'd been thinking Heavy 4 pinning myself.
Okay, coming fro my point of view I do have to say that whilst they are tough buggers to deal with the Terminators need a buff. I feel that some added survivability is really needed but no rerollables or extra wounds. Instead Toughness 5 (to represent the extra ablative plates in the armour) would be a really good start.
Another good option would be to let them take two specialist/heavy weapons per every 5 Terminators. Suddenly they can have a squad of 10 with 4 Assault Cannons or 4 Missile Launchers. Combine this with a slight reduction in the costs of these weapons and suddenly you have an efficient and deadly killing unit that is really tough and can put a lot of firepower downrange.
Doom,
I like what you have there, but it seems a bit all over the board.
Armor stacking with invulns, 2 heavies per 5, and special ammo all for 30ppm is a bit much.
With 2 heavies per 5, you can pick what firepower you want. And how are they swapping out clips in Termie armor? Auto-selectors are plausible, but don't really feel like a Termie thing. That's for Sternjes.
I like the rest of your proposal though.
(Edit - to be clear, I propose: drop Special Issue Ammo, and reduce all CC options by 3ppm)
Martel,
45ppm Ac Termies vs Scatter Bikes has been argued to death. Assuming:
-Eldar player goes second
-Mission is Eternal War
-There are tons of objectives in a low points game
Then Eldar have a chance. Otherwise, its nearly autowin for the Termies.
The bikes can outmaneuver Termies, but the Termies can just sit on objectives all game. Even with ObSec, Wkndriders cannot take an objective from 3 Termies. And while they can whittle down the Termies, they do so far too slowly. Termies outshoot the bikes, and easily do whatever they want.
Bharring wrote: Doom,
I like what you have there, but it seems a bit all over the board.
Armor stacking with invulns, 2 heavies per 5, and special ammo all for 30ppm is a bit much.
With 2 heavies per 5, you can pick what firepower you want. And how are they swapping out clips in Termie armor? Auto-selectors are plausible, but don't really feel like a Termie thing. That's for Sternjes.
I like the rest of your proposal though.
(Edit - to be clear, I propose: drop Special Issue Ammo, and reduce all CC options by 3ppm)
Martel,
45ppm Ac Termies vs Scatter Bikes has been argued to death. Assuming:
-Eldar player goes second
-Mission is Eternal War
-There are tons of objectives in a low points game
Then Eldar have a chance. Otherwise, its nearly autowin for the Termies.
The bikes can outmaneuver Termies, but the Termies can just sit on objectives all game. Even with ObSec, Wkndriders cannot take an objective from 3 Termies. And while they can whittle down the Termies, they do so far too slowly. Termies outshoot the bikes, and easily do whatever they want.
Fortunately the Eldar have other OP units as well. I figured you'd show up sooner or later. And they are still inferior to scatbikes regardless of what you try to spin.
Martel,
45ppm Ac Termies vs Scatter Bikes has been argued to death. Assuming:
-Eldar player goes second
-Mission is Eternal War
-There are tons of objectives in a low points game
Then Eldar have a chance. Otherwise, its nearly autowin for the Termies.
The bikes can outmaneuver Termies, but the Termies can just sit on objectives all game. Even with ObSec, Wkndriders cannot take an objective from 3 Termies. And while they can whittle down the Termies, they do so far too slowly. Termies outshoot the bikes, and easily do whatever they want.
Hmm I don't actually think this is true, but let me check.
Assault Cannons are Range 24" Heavy 4 S6 ap4 Rending
Scatter Lasers are Range 36" Heavy 4 S6 ap6
One unit of Terminators with 5 assault cannnons at 45ppm is equal to 225pts.
Lets use 2 units of 4 windriders with Scatter lasers which comes out to 216pts.
For the first Scenario lets pretend that they landed within 24" of unit of windriders and didn't scatter. The massed firepower from all 5 of these cannons will decimate ONE unit of windriders worth half it value. But guess what happens now? The other unit of windriders gets within 36" making sure to stay out of cannon range and shoots them unretaliated for the rest of the game dealing 1.48 unsaved wounds per turn.
Also if the terminators don't manage to get the perfect alpha strike and murderize a windrider squad BOTH squads can come up and fire at the terminators and remove 2.96 45ppm terminators per turn, and there would be NOTHING the terminators could do against it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And of course this is assuming other nasties aren't there to crush the terminators.
How do they manage to stay out of 30" of Termies for 7 turns on a 48"x72" board?
I assumed large numbers of both.
A SL shot has a 10/108 chance of killing a Termie.
On average, that's 54 shots to kill the Termies.
With 4 SLs, that's 16 shots a turn.
Four turns of uninterrupted shooting is possible. But assuming Termies stated on the centerline, they've moved 6 +d6 " per round, or 18+10. So, the Bikes need to be able to back away in one direction 54" to have time to survive.
So the Termies need to deep strike into a corner on the far side of the surviving unit, for the lulz.
Bharring wrote: They have JSJ, but can't use BF. Better, but not quite the same thing.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ever had to run down a horse in a barn?
Its doable. Even for little fatso kid-me.
Being faster is huge, but isn't autowin when it comes to positioning.
Perhaps, but thats not the point really.
It might be a possibility, but its not the most easily attained possibility or the most likely.
If the Eldar players was stupid and had all 8 windriders in one squad you'd have a better chance, but the more likely scenario is that they will be using MSU units of 3 or 4.
Bharring wrote: I think the board would start feeling a lot smaller if you ever did try it.
At any rate, yeah, for the most part I like your ideas.
That would require me playing Eldar which I can't stand because I don't like elf factions (call me weird) so its not likely.
The only reason I've even read the codex is because my friend is weird and he only buys/collects the codexes and other books to read.
Anyways for anyone that didn't see it I am reposting my draft for fixing Terminators. If anyone has any objections PLEASE state them now. Hopefully everyone in the thread agreed on something, and we can implementing the rules for playtesting to see if they need reworking.
Wargear: Wargear, Terminator Armor*, Power Weapon, Godwyn pattern Stormbolter
Special Rules: And They Shall Know No Fear, Chapter Tactics, Combat Squads, Plasma Hardened Armor*
May take up to 5 more Terminators for 30ppm.
Each model may replace its stormbolter or power weapon with a
Lightning claw-2pts
Power fist-5pts
Storm Shield-3pts
Chainfist-7pts
Thunder Hammer-7pts
Up to 2 models per 5 may choose options from the heavy weapons list.
Terminator Armor- Confers a 2+ Armor Save , a 4+ invulnerable save, and the Relentless special rule. Models wearing Terminator Armor may choose to enter the game via Deep Strike following the rules for Deep Strike Reserves. Models Wearing Terminator Armor may never make sweeping advances.
Plasma Hardened Armor- Models with this rule may choose to take invulnerable saves after they failed their armor save.
Godwyn pattern Stormbolter- range 24" S4 ap5 salvo 2/3
Anyways for anyone that didn't see it I am reposting my draft for fixing Terminators.
Absolutely spot on. I'll happily use those rules. Puts the T back in "terminator" without being OTT or imbalanced. Thanks & well done.
One small thing -I've not done the maths, but is the upgrade from power weapon to fist too cheap?
Not that'd I'd choose to take 5 fists (because I'll either suffer "first strike" casualties vs good melee units due to unwieldy, and vs weaker combatants 10 or 15 pf attacks is usually overkill) So sword and mace would remain viable using your proposed weapon costs, but the axe is kind of screwed over if it's only 2pts cheaper than a fist. S5 to S8 for 2 points would be a hands down upgrade. I would have thought at least 5 pts would be more on the mark -what do you think?
Anyways for anyone that didn't see it I am reposting my draft for fixing Terminators.
Absolutely spot on. I'll happily use those rules. Puts the T back in "terminator" without being OTT or imbalanced. Thanks & well done.
One small thing -I've not done the maths, but is the upgrade from power weapon to fist too cheap?
Not that'd I'd choose to take 5 fists (because I'll either suffer "first strike" casualties vs good melee units due to unwieldy, and vs weaker combatants 10 or 15 pf attacks is usually overkill) So sword and mace would remain viable using your proposed weapon costs, but the axe is kind of screwed over if it's only 2pts cheaper than a fist. S5 to S8 for 2 points would be a hands down upgrade. I would have thought at least 5 pts would be more on the mark -what do you think?
I had it at 5pts, but changed it at a suggestion of another user.
Don't forget also that you gain the specialist weapon rule and lose any extra attacks for two weapons without taking another one.
I'll have to go over them again. Its probably too cheap IMO. (le sigh)
Looks pretty solid overall! Kinda surprised that you went with that level of gear customization, unexpected but would be interesting to see!
Only things that jump out at me are:
1) Power Fist cost, with it costed the way it is, Fist/Claw is directly superior to the fluffy twin-Claw setup for exactly the same price.
2) I have doubts about the buffed Storm Bolter being Salvo 2/3 instead of Salvo 2/4, but that's probably better off being worked out in playtesting whether it's better to give them 3 or 4 shots.
CrashGordon94 wrote: Looks pretty solid overall! Kinda surprised that you went with that level of gear customization, unexpected but would be interesting to see!
Only things that jump out at me are:
1) Power Fist cost, with it costed the way it is, Fist/Claw is directly superior to the fluffy twin-Claw setup for exactly the same price.
2) I have doubts about the buffed Storm Bolter being Salvo 2/3 instead of Salvo 2/4, but that's probably better off being worked out in playtesting whether it's better to give them 3 or 4 shots.
Will keep thinking but that's all I got for now.
Yes I think that 5pts for a power fist is more fair.
The other options seem all right.
As far as customization I believe its best to have a single unit with all available options so that you can A. save page space, and B. outfit them in a way that's fun for you.
As a chaos player, I wish they would just give me Terminators with TL plasma guns for 14pts. That would be the most reliable plasma guns for me. A re-roll any gets hot! and if I still fail it, I have a 2+ armor.
As far as customization I believe its best to have a single unit with all available options so that you can A. save page space, and B. outfit them in a way that's fun for you.
Oh I meant that I was thinking of the Deathwing-style setup, you start with the "tactical" gear with the options:
Swap for a pair of Lightning Claws for free
Swap for a Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield for 10 points
But you went a step further and split it up, allowing for a lot more combos!
As far as customization I believe its best to have a single unit with all available options so that you can A. save page space, and B. outfit them in a way that's fun for you.
Oh I meant that I was thinking of the Deathwing-style setup, you start with the "tactical" gear with the options:
Swap for a pair of Lightning Claws for free
Swap for a Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield for 10 points
But you went a step further and split it up, allowing for a lot more combos!
Oh I see what your saying.
The idea originally came to me because I thought it'd be awesome to have power fist/lightning claw termies. They'd look freaking amazing!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Martel what are your thoughts on this?
i think the biggest issue is that the terminator is a punching unit in a meta that currently requires you shoot better than you punch. unless you can do some insane cc tricks like the skyhammer or the kahrybdis strike team or you have the insane rules of things like black knights/jetbike harleys you cant tango with that kind of stuff at all.
heres what we need: we need to re-establish the balance between shooting and ccing, we need to de-escalate the arms race of silly nonsense strength d pieplates and jetbikes with ludicrous value rules, we need to make overwatch a genuine tactical decision as opposed to a flat "going through the motions" mechanic. like here: if you overwatch at all (group or otherwise) you cannot hit n run out of combat/dynamic entry/exit, and attacks made back at a charging unit are done at ws1 now debating when to overwatch and when to let the cc just happen becomes a much more tactically involving decision for the player. shooting now has a penalty for failing to be good at shooting that is potentially lethal.
we need more transport mechanisms for the terminators that are affordable, i suggested an idea some months ago that i look back on as ridiculous but have repurposed it as an example for you here today: a terminator exclusive drop pod that lets them deepstrike from reserves. no weapons on the vehicle it simply arrives and lets them cc from the get go. now cc terminators can cc and shooty terminators can be weird and messed up and ya know shoot.
i think maybe giving terminators (including chaos) the autocannon as a weapons option at 1 per 3 models for 5p would be a very nice idea, now theres instant synergy with the cml letting you make terminator devestator squads; a destroyer squad if you will. and units numbering 6-9 models can take autocannons alongside their other ranged weapons that otherwise have no place in a unit that punches things so wierdos looking for a shooting terminator unit can do that instead of doing what a terminator was born to do.
removing invisibles benefit of snaps only against the unit while in cc i think would help too, no more magic cloaks against the punching. this pushes shooting armies to kill cc units even more.
the concept isnt to remove shooting entirely from armies that only know how to shoot but to point out that if they feth up the shooting their dead, no debates, no running that unit is dead and just doesnt know it yet.
this i feel makes units that can do both well useful again like wolf guard, storm troopers, sisters, flash gitz who otherwise or being ham fisted into one roll or another often even sent to their deaths as suicide squads foolishly hoping they kill something as a form of soft unit removal, if their even played at all.
however this steps all over the one trick pony units like tactical marines who cant cc at all, but they were already in that position because of the arms race that has spiraled so far away they might as well be orbiting a distant star across the galaxy from relevance. and the tau are in a position of kill the enemy before they reach 12" or im doomed but thats how i feel the tau are supposed to feel when they dont have the kroot to save them
I still like my ideas of only being able to snap fire at them after deep striking and being immune to interceptor (teleportation blinds the enemy units), mixing the units back together, the cyclone is a separate upgrade open per 5 man that can split fire from the rest of the unit and then allowing storm bolters to be buffed one turn per game (double tap, rending, re-roll to hits, re-roll to wounds) just so they can put out some serious firepower before they inevitably go to mess stuff up with their fists, or other ccw's due to LC and TH/SS being mixed back into the unit.
It increases their survivability in a fluffy way after deep striking whilst not effecting following game turns.
Allows them to buff their shooting one turn per game, which usually is all they will get to fire anyway.
Makes them more flexible by allowing mixing of weapons.
Provides a more unique way to increase heavy weapons yet doesn't allow double HF/AC in a 5 man unit whilst allowing the cyclone to be more flexible and not limit the firing of the rest of the unit.
And I'd keep all of that the same prices they are currently, it is a good strike unit that will be able to survive a bit longer to put out some hurt but inevitably will be deleted by the enemy once the snap firing shield has expired, and if it ignored, then they will be flooding into combat. It forces your enemy to not ignore them in some respect.
What's wrong with double HF/AC? I think most of you are just holding back way too much here. This is a game with Webway portal D-scythes are you are scared to give terminators an extra crappy imperial heavy weapon? Yes, I think Imperial heavy weapons across the board pretty much suck.
In a game of WWP Scytheguard, the Termies can bring Skyhammer and IKs.
In a game that involves foot Guardians, CADTac squads, Carbine FWs, Wyches, and/or other units below the 95th percentile, anything that can compete with the SM/CWE/Necron gak just wipes the floor. In those games, 2xIoM heavies on a very durable platform actually means something (if appropriately costed).
If each model can buy one, the price point needs to be higher per model than if its limited to 1 or 2 per 5. That price is a bit high right now, but don't make it too cheap.
Bharring wrote: If each model can buy one, the price point needs to be higher per model than if its limited to 1 or 2 per 5. That price is a bit high right now, but don't make it too cheap.
I don't really agree with that logic. But whatever. Eldar don't pay anything extra special on scatbikes.
(Same argument for Scatter Bikes - they are broken, but weren't at 1 heavy per 3.)
Automatically Appended Next Post: Well, should we allow Striking Scorpions to deep strike turn 1, and assault on the charge, with the only cost being the need to take Dark Reapers who pin anything they shoot at?
Martel732 wrote: But as it turns out, you need stupid to fight stupid on an even footing.
Or better yet, get rid of the stupid instead of adding to it!
But nerfing Scatterbikes is another topic's issue and bringing Terminators up to that level is a horrid idea, so time to end this part of the discussion.
2 per 5 is the maximum that would be reasonable. If that's still not enough, let the Sergeant have one too, any more would be ridiculous.
Well, some things would need tweaking anyway but that would certainly be the first option.
Salvo 2/4 with a special rule to not screw over non-Relentless/SnP Infantry. But DoomShakaLaka's current idea isn't that bad and is pretty manageable with no "knock-on" effects.
CrashGordon94 wrote: Yes if they're OP too, and in another thread. Away from this one. Where we'll buff Terminators to reasonable but not stupid standards.
I'm questioning your version of reasonable vs stupid. Where is the line? Warp spiders? Sternguard? Grav Centurions? TWC? Scatbikes? WK? Riptides? Broadsides? Tactical terminators are inferior to all of those units, plus a bunch more.
For some reason there doesn't seem to be any Eldar opponents around my area so I never face off against a scatter laser. It's always the stupid HYMP from tau that shoot my termies a million times and invalidate their armor.
Wargear: Wargear, Terminator Armor*, Power Weapon, Godwyn pattern Stormbolter
Special Rules: And They Shall Know No Fear, Chapter Tactics, Combat Squads, Plasma Hardened Armor*
May take up to 5 more Terminators for 30ppm.
Each model may replace its stormbolter or power weapon with a
Lightning claw-2pts
Power fist-5pts
Storm Shield-3pts
Chainfist-7pts
Thunder Hammer-7pts
Up to 2 models per 5 may choose options from the heavy weapons list.
Terminator Armor- Confers a 2+ Armor Save , a 4+ invulnerable save, and the Relentless special rule. Models wearing Terminator Armor may choose to enter the game via Deep Strike following the rules for Deep Strike Reserves. Models Wearing Terminator Armor may never make sweeping advances.
Plasma Hardened Armor- Models with this rule may choose to take invulnerable saves after they failed their armor save.
Godwyn pattern Stormbolter- range 24" S4 ap5 salvo 2/3
I quite like this. Though I still feel like they should be more like the command squad by allowing each terminator to take a heavy weapon (paying for each one obviously). I feel like storm bolters should be salvo 2/4 but that is just me. I but I could agree with the 2 heavy per 5 limit. I still feel like something needs to be done to make twin lightning claws an option. Maybe something like 3pts for twin lightning claws?
Since Terminators are underpowered, they should be made reasonable with buffs. Since Scatterbikes, Wraithknights and so on are overpowered they should be made reasonable with nerfs.
Since Terminators are underpowered, they should be made reasonable with buffs. Since Scatterbikes, Wraithknights and so on are overpowered they should be made reasonable with buffs.
Since Terminators are underpowered, they should be made reasonable with buffs. Since Scatterbikes, Wraithknights and so on are overpowered they should be made reasonable with buffs.
lol you mean nerfs
Crap, you're right! I feel like a right derp now...
Wargear: Wargear, Terminator Armor*, Power Weapon, Godwyn pattern Stormbolter
Special Rules: And They Shall Know No Fear, Chapter Tactics, Combat Squads, Plasma Hardened Armor*
May take up to 5 more Terminators for 30ppm.
Each model may replace its stormbolter or power weapon with a
Lightning claw-2pts
Power fist-5pts
Storm Shield-3pts
Chainfist-7pts
Thunder Hammer-7pts
Up to 2 models per 5 may choose options from the heavy weapons list.
Terminator Armor- Confers a 2+ Armor Save , a 4+ invulnerable save, and the Relentless special rule. Models wearing Terminator Armor may choose to enter the game via Deep Strike following the rules for Deep Strike Reserves. Models Wearing Terminator Armor may never make sweeping advances.
Plasma Hardened Armor- Models with this rule may choose to take invulnerable saves after they failed their armor save.
Godwyn pattern Stormbolter- range 24" S4 ap5 salvo 2/3
I quite like this. Though I still feel like they should be more like the command squad by allowing each terminator to take a heavy weapon (paying for each one obviously). I feel like storm bolters should be salvo 2/4 but that is just me. I but I could agree with the 2 heavy per 5 limit. I still feel like something needs to be done to make twin lightning claws an option. Maybe something like 3pts for twin lightning claws?
It is an option. You can replace the stormbolter and the power sword
Wargear: Wargear, Terminator Armor*, Power Weapon, Godwyn pattern Stormbolter
Special Rules: And They Shall Know No Fear, Chapter Tactics, Combat Squads, Plasma Hardened Armor*
May take up to 5 more Terminators for 30ppm.
Each model may replace its stormbolter or power weapon with a
Lightning claw-2pts
Power fist-5pts
Storm Shield-3pts
Chainfist-7pts
Thunder Hammer-7pts
Up to 2 models per 5 may choose options from the heavy weapons list.
Terminator Armor- Confers a 2+ Armor Save , a 4+ invulnerable save, and the Relentless special rule. Models wearing Terminator Armor may choose to enter the game via Deep Strike following the rules for Deep Strike Reserves. Models Wearing Terminator Armor may never make sweeping advances.
Plasma Hardened Armor- Models with this rule may choose to take invulnerable saves after they failed their armor save.
Godwyn pattern Stormbolter- range 24" S4 ap5 salvo 2/3
I quite like this. Though I still feel like they should be more like the command squad by allowing each terminator to take a heavy weapon (paying for each one obviously). I feel like storm bolters should be salvo 2/4 but that is just me. I but I could agree with the 2 heavy per 5 limit. I still feel like something needs to be done to make twin lightning claws an option. Maybe something like 3pts for twin lightning claws?
It is an option. You can replace the stormbolter and the power sword
Outside of CSM, when does one see tactical termies taking power weapons if they arent the sergeant?
Wargear: Wargear, Terminator Armor*, Power Weapon, Godwyn pattern Stormbolter
Special Rules: And They Shall Know No Fear, Chapter Tactics, Combat Squads, Plasma Hardened Armor*
May take up to 5 more Terminators for 30ppm.
Each model may replace its stormbolter or power weapon with a
Lightning claw-2pts
Power fist-5pts
Storm Shield-3pts
Chainfist-7pts
Thunder Hammer-7pts
Up to 2 models per 5 may choose options from the heavy weapons list.
Terminator Armor- Confers a 2+ Armor Save , a 4+ invulnerable save, and the Relentless special rule. Models wearing Terminator Armor may choose to enter the game via Deep Strike following the rules for Deep Strike Reserves. Models Wearing Terminator Armor may never make sweeping advances.
Plasma Hardened Armor- Models with this rule may choose to take invulnerable saves after they failed their armor save.
Godwyn pattern Stormbolter- range 24" S4 ap5 salvo 2/3
I quite like this. Though I still feel like they should be more like the command squad by allowing each terminator to take a heavy weapon (paying for each one obviously). I feel like storm bolters should be salvo 2/4 but that is just me. I but I could agree with the 2 heavy per 5 limit. I still feel like something needs to be done to make twin lightning claws an option. Maybe something like 3pts for twin lightning claws?
It is an option. You can replace the stormbolter and the power sword
Outside of CSM, when does one see tactical termies taking power weapons if they arent the sergeant?
Before now? Never. Because it wasn't an option until I made it.
Wargear: Wargear, Terminator Armor*, Power Weapon, Godwyn pattern Stormbolter
Special Rules: And They Shall Know No Fear, Chapter Tactics, Combat Squads, Plasma Hardened Armor*
May take up to 5 more Terminators for 30ppm.
Each model may replace its stormbolter or power weapon with a
Lightning claw-2pts
Power fist-5pts
Storm Shield-3pts
Chainfist-7pts
Thunder Hammer-7pts
Up to 2 models per 5 may choose options from the heavy weapons list.
Terminator Armor- Confers a 2+ Armor Save , a 4+ invulnerable save, and the Relentless special rule. Models wearing Terminator Armor may choose to enter the game via Deep Strike following the rules for Deep Strike Reserves. Models Wearing Terminator Armor may never make sweeping advances.
Plasma Hardened Armor- Models with this rule may choose to take invulnerable saves after they failed their armor save.
Godwyn pattern Stormbolter- range 24" S4 ap5 salvo 2/3
I quite like this. Though I still feel like they should be more like the command squad by allowing each terminator to take a heavy weapon (paying for each one obviously). I feel like storm bolters should be salvo 2/4 but that is just me. I but I could agree with the 2 heavy per 5 limit. I still feel like something needs to be done to make twin lightning claws an option. Maybe something like 3pts for twin lightning claws?
It is an option. You can replace the stormbolter and the power sword
Outside of CSM, when does one see tactical termies taking power weapons if they arent the sergeant?
Before now? Never. Because it wasn't an option until I made it.
Martel732 wrote: GW doesn't match their own fluffl, thereby invalidating the fluff.
since the dawn of Tactical Dreadnaught Armour, they habe always had powerfists
*And suddenly a wild centurion suit appears
GW retcons things all the time, and changes them to match their models. So I have no problem doing the same.
Martel732 wrote: GW doesn't match their own fluffl, thereby invalidating the fluff.
since the dawn of Tactical Dreadnaught Armour, they habe always had powerfists
*And suddenly a wild centurion suit appears
GW retcons things all the time, and changes them to match their models. So I have no problem doing the same.
It doesnt make sense to completely redo the unit because it costs a lot. Now what would make sense is allowing them to take combiweapons or... specialist ammunition in a stormbolter. S4 AP3 on a relentless platform(After Storm Bolters become salvo 2/4)? Yes please.
You people and your S4. S4 AP3 isn't good, because if it were, 1K sons would be good. The game is about mid-strength shooting to generate as many wounds as possible. A huge percentage of the time your AP 3 only knocks a save down to a 5+ cover save anyway. Mid-strength shooting duplicates this effect by generating more wounds in the first place AND being anti-tank AND being anti-MC.
Martel732 wrote: GW doesn't match their own fluffl, thereby invalidating the fluff.
since the dawn of Tactical Dreadnaught Armour, they habe always had powerfists
*And suddenly a wild centurion suit appears
GW retcons things all the time, and changes them to match their models. So I have no problem doing the same.
It doesnt make sense to completely redo the unit because it costs a lot. Now what would make sense is allowing them to take combiweapons or... specialist ammunition in a stormbolter. S4 AP3 on a relentless platform(After Storm Bolters become salvo 2/4)? Yes please.
Terminators have never had combi-weapons before...and its ok for terminators to have them...but Terminators can't tank power weapons because they never had them before?
Then I can follow it up with: It makes no sense to completely redo the weapon profile on the stormbolter because it isn't useful.
These kinds of arguments are not worth anything.
If you think that the rules I proposed are imbalanced, and point out and explain what you think is causing that problem, then we can fix that.
Martel732 wrote: You people and your S4. S4 AP3 isn't good, because if it were, 1K sons would be good. The game is about mid-strength shooting to generate as many wounds as possible. A huge percentage of the time your AP 3 only knocks a save down to a 5+ cover save anyway. Mid-strength shooting duplicates this effect by generating more wounds in the first place AND being anti-tank AND being anti-MC.
Well with special ammunition, youd get one round that does either poisoned (2+), range 30" AP4, Ignore cover or AP3 gets hot
Martel732 wrote: Salvo 2/4 with specialist ammo would be worth having for sure.
What about special ammo upgrades where you have to buy them for the entire squad for different effects (cost based on number of SBs)?
That would allow for customizing the SB to be more effective in conjuction with the heavy weapons brought along.
On a side note Ithink under the proposed changes (to upgrade costs to terminator weapons) I still think 4 points is too much for two lightning claws compared to the other options. Especially since all the claws are bringing to the table is an extra attack. I would always take something other than a second lightning claw. I think twin lightning claws should either give another bonus of some sort or only cost 3 points total. I would rather have an extra ability since I think that would make them more attractive. but that is just me.
DoomShakaLaka wrote: Ok so here is a compilation of all the good ideas for Terminators put into stat form.
Its a little bit different than what I was originally thinking, but let me know if this works for everybody. 150pts (4x Terminators, 1x Terminator Sgt)
Wargear: Wargear, Terminator Armor*, Power Weapon, Godwyn pattern Stormbolter
Special Rules: And They Shall Know No Fear, Chapter Tactics, Combat Squads, Plasma Hardened Armor*
May take up to 5 more Terminators for 30ppm. Each model may replace its stormbolter or power weapon with a Lightning claw-2pts Power fist-2pts Storm Shield-3pts Chainfist-7pts Thunder Hammer-7pts Up to 2 models per 5 may choose options from the heavy weapons list. Terminator Armor- Confers a 2+ Armor Save , a 4+ invulnerable save, and the Relentless special rule. Models wearing Terminator Armor may choose to enter the game via Deep Strike following the rules for Deep Strike Reserves. Models Wearing Terminator Armor may never make sweeping advances. Plasma Hardened Armor- Models with this rule may choose to take invulnerable saves after they failed their armor save. (This is basically that 2+ 4+ from ITC you were talking about)
Godwyn pattern Stormbolter- range 24" S4 ap5 salvo 2/3
While I definitely like the direction of your changes go Doom - especially in light of some of the others being suggested - there are several concerns and a couple of problems that I’d like to point out with it.
The Price Efficiency: The total stats buffs being given here are pretty big when you stop to consider everything. Your changes to storm bolters effectively gives them a 50% increase in shooting efficiency. Your increase of their base invulnerable save, as well as your special rule, mean that their defensive save efficiency is also increased by 50% for both armor and armor ignoring hits. You also doubled their heavy weapon capacity per squad, so 100% gain there. Cutting costs on top of all this is just not okay. If anything, this should probably push their points costs up slightly. You have even made them fairly solid against AP 2 now and that is supposed to be their counter. Their points efficiency has gone way up with your changes, which leads to problem two.
Slot Efficiency: The reason that most of the ideas that everyone have suggested in this thread are bad is that they are ridiculously efficient. Not necessarily in a purely stat sense per se, but rather because they eliminate choice and options by buffing things to do everything well. Everyone likes to talk about how scatbikes are the most OP things ever, but the reason this is the case is because they can do almost everything well with no real downsides. This is exactly the same problem that many of these suggestions have. Give everyone heavy weapons: you didn’t want to take Devastators anyways, right? Special ammo: It’s not like this was Sternguard’s unique niche or anything. Terminators are supposed to be more about defense than offence and everyone wants them to rule both absolutely. The problem here is that one of yours creates a similar problem: the 4++. So, why is this a problem? you have just rendered pure assault terminators irrelevant. With your changes to shooting and the inherent strength of powerfists, the advantages gained by using the TH/SS combo is not even remotely worth what you give up by losing their shooting capabilities. the difference between a 3++ and 4++ is just not enough to give up all that shooting. This leads directly into problem number three.
Role Efficiency (or the deathstar problem): While I can understand the desire to combine the differing Terminator types into one unit with many customizations; there is a very important reason that they are separate. Terminators are actually a fairly efficient unit in melee... provided you can get them there. The problem with allowing the unit types to mix - with the changes you already have - is that it is now possible to just make a unit maximized for destroying/surviving everything. You have a squad of 10 terminators with 2-3 TH/SS users at the front to tank hits; 3-4 in the middle with storm bolters and power fists; and 4 in the back with heavy weapons and power fists. This is the maximized way to use this squad in pretty much all scenarios (maybe give the middle ones a thunder claw if you are worried about higher initiative enemies.) This unit is a deathstar all on it’s own. You don’t want to charge it and you certainly can’t let it shoot. It has no real weaknesses aside from the ones that every infantry unit shares.
Now, this all being said, I do think your changes are about right. There are only a few things I’d suggest. First, just make the storm bolter assault 3. Salvo actually makes it worse for everyone else than it was before since you lose half its range when moving. Second, reduce the invulnerable back to normal or increase the base cost per model to 38-40 points. Third, keep the two Terminator role types separated. More options isn’t good when will actually result in less diversity due to optimal builds. Anyways, thought I’d give you some useful feedback on your changes.
Confers a 2+ Armor Save , a 4+ invulnerable save....Plasma Hardened Armor- Models with this rule may choose to take invulnerable saves after they failed their armor save.
Something I just thought about. Heavy weapons with mid level AP that should present a reasonable threat to termies (missile launcher, autocannon) would be screwed over by this. A krak missile hit would only stand a 5 in 72 chance of a kill, which is dismal.
Therefore I'd suggest Plasma Hardened Armour be chnged to "against weapons with an AP of 4+ or higher (weaker) Models with this rule may choose to take invulnerable saves after they failed their armor save." Arguably it should be 5+ or higher to so autocannons don't get caught in that net, but I don't think that would be overall desireable. Also it's long being held that autocannons should be AP3, but that's a discussion for another day...
Sorry to be coming back to you with more suggested alterations, but will be worth it if you can refine your proposed changes into something truly balanced that can be widely accepted and used.
Confers a 2+ Armor Save , a 4+ invulnerable save....Plasma Hardened Armor- Models with this rule may choose to take invulnerable saves after they failed their armor save.
Something I just thought about. Heavy weapons with mid level AP that should present a reasonable threat to termies (missile launcher, autocannon) would be screwed over by this. A krak missile hit would only stand a 5 in 72 chance of a kill, which is dismal.
Therefore I'd suggest Plasma Hardened Armour be chnged to "against weapons with an AP of 4+ or higher (weaker) Models with this rule may choose to take invulnerable saves after they failed their armor save." Arguably it should be 5+ or higher to so autocannons don't get caught in that net, but I don't think that would be overall desireable. Also it's long being held that autocannons should be AP3, but that's a discussion for another day...
Sorry to be coming back to you with more suggested alterations, but will be worth it if you can refine your proposed changes into something truly balanced that can be widely accepted and used.
I still think the 2+ rerollabe armor save helps defend better against mass shooting attacks. There are still enough AP2 and 1 weapons in the game that will nullify their armor save and force them to rely on their 5++ at best. Everyone likes to say that the availability of low AP weapons is all over the place.
If my terminators get shot by plasma or melta or some such weapon then I don't mind grinning and bearing it. It's when they get shot 25+ times with non armor penetrating shots from units that makes me go "Why am I paying such a premium for 2+ armor when there are units in the game that basically nullify my walking tanks through sheer volume?"
I still think the 2+ rerollabe armor save helps defend better against mass shooting attacks. There are still enough AP2 and 1 weapons in the game that will nullify their armor save and force them to rely on their 5++ at best. Everyone likes to say that the availability of low AP weapons is all over the place.
If my terminators get shot by plasma or melta or some such weapon then I don't mind grinning and bearing it. It's when they get shot 25+ times with non armor penetrating shots from units that makes me go "Why am I paying such a premium for 2+ armor when there are units in the game that basically nullify my walking tanks through sheer volume?"
I did consider that myself, and while it'd be fluff realistic to the armour's true abilities vs small arms, I think it's too extreme for the game. Also as mentioned, even Doom's more moderate rule proposals would make missile launchers, autocannon and other AP3 and AP4 heavy weapons severely weakened at killing termies. And not only would that badly imbalance such weapons, I don't think it's fluff-adherent either. So needless to say giving them a 2+ rerollable would make such weapons near useless altogether. For example a missile launcher hit would then stand a 2.3% chance of killing a termie! I think you'll agree that considering the same weapon stands a 50% chance of penning or glancing a dreadnought, that the above probability would be outrageous for a terminator!
On your second po, there's a ridiculous aboundance of AP2, I've always held to it that plasma guns and pistols should be AP3, and AP2 template weapons bigger than small blast should be very rare and expensive. But I'll open that can of worms another day!
I still think the 2+ rerollabe armor save helps defend better against mass shooting attacks. There are still enough AP2 and 1 weapons in the game that will nullify their armor save and force them to rely on their 5++ at best. Everyone likes to say that the availability of low AP weapons is all over the place.
If my terminators get shot by plasma or melta or some such weapon then I don't mind grinning and bearing it. It's when they get shot 25+ times with non armor penetrating shots from units that makes me go "Why am I paying such a premium for 2+ armor when there are units in the game that basically nullify my walking tanks through sheer volume?"
I did consider that myself, and while it'd be fluff realistic to the armour's true abilities vs small arms, I think it's too extreme for the game. Also as mentioned, even Doom's more moderate rule proposals would make missile launchers, autocannon and other AP3 and AP4 heavy weapons severely weakened at killing termies. And not only would that badly imbalance such weapons, I don't think it's fluff-adherent either. So needless to say giving them a 2+ rerollable would make such weapons near useless altogether. For example a missile launcher hit would then stand a 2.3% chance of killing a termie! I think you'll agree that considering the same weapon stands a 50% chance of penning or glancing a dreadnought, that the above probability would be outrageous for a terminator!
On your second po, there's a ridiculous aboundance of AP2, I've always held to it that plasma guns and pistols should be AP3, and AP2 template weapons bigger than small blast should be very rare and expensive. But I'll open that can of worms another day!
Then perhaps a re-rollable armor save vs weapons that are ap4 and worse as I've seen others suggested here. I know you might say this can screw over the auto cannon but that is just one weapon system among many. Most of the times my termies have died to large volumes of shooting were from IG blobs full of lasguns, Tau Broadside missle spam, or ironically enough Tyranid dakkafexes.
Confers a 2+ Armor Save , a 4+ invulnerable save....Plasma Hardened Armor- Models with this rule may choose to take invulnerable saves after they failed their armor save.
Something I just thought about. Heavy weapons with mid level AP that should present a reasonable threat to termies (missile launcher, autocannon) would be screwed over by this. A krak missile hit would only stand a 5 in 72 chance of a kill, which is dismal.
Therefore I'd suggest Plasma Hardened Armour be chnged to "against weapons with an AP of 4+ or higher (weaker) Models with this rule may choose to take invulnerable saves after they failed their armor save." Arguably it should be 5+ or higher to so autocannons don't get caught in that net, but I don't think that would be overall desireable. Also it's long being held that autocannons should be AP3, but that's a discussion for another day...
Sorry to be coming back to you with more suggested alterations, but will be worth it if you can refine your proposed changes into something truly balanced that can be widely accepted and used.
This could work. It keeps them tough, but not against everything( I like) And it makes also makes it so that things like power weapons have a better chance of wounding in cc than the schmucks beating them with their fists.
#ObjectivelyBiased
Assault 3 could work. It makes no difference on this unit of course, but some people are worried that it would have reprecussions with PA Grey Knights and things like that( but I believe they could use the buff anyways so no harm done).
The difference betweena 5+ to 3+ has always seemed to be TOO good for anyone to ever pass up on taking assault terminators, but you are correct in saying that the opposite might be true now.
That unit you described does sound like it would be tough to crack. I'm not sure if it would be broken or not, but it very well could be too strong.
Specifically on Broadsides shooting them off the table -
Even without any change to SBs, under the change, the Termies take half the casualties. Then, remaining SB Termies kill the drones. Then the two HW guys open up. All for under 200.
Misslespam broadsides are still nasty, and I'm not sure how exactly they would stack up, but certainly much better than before.
Bharring wrote: Specifically on Broadsides shooting them off the table -
Even without any change to SBs, under the change, the Termies take half the casualties. Then, remaining SB Termies kill the drones. Then the two HW guys open up. All for under 200.
Misslespam broadsides are still nasty, and I'm not sure how exactly they would stack up, but certainly much better than before.
Is this a good or a bad thing though? What do those broadsides cost?
I'm thinking of instating the ap4 or better ignores the plasma hardened rule.
You guys know that Augur Triangulation rule? I like that idea.
Augur Triangulation: If a [Terminator] arrives from Deep Strike Reserve within 12” of at least two models equipped with teleport homers, then it does not scatter, and can charge on the same turn it arrives.
Then perhaps a re-rollable armor save vs weapons that are ap4 and worse as I've seen others suggested here. I know you might say this can screw over the auto cannon but that is just one weapon system among many. Most of the times my termies have died to large volumes of shooting were from IG blobs full of lasguns, Tau Broadside missle spam, or ironically enough Tyranid dakkafexes.
No, you're dead right -I suggested it myself! Yes it does screw over the autocannon but that weapon shouldn't be AP4 in the first place -I'm pretty sure something which can pen the side armour of most tanks should go through power armour like butter!
The Price Efficiency: Cutting costs on top of all this is just not okay. If anything, this should probably push their points costs up slightly.
Fair point. A lot of folks would say they're overcosted at their official stats, but yeah when you're talking about 100% durability increases and 50% firepower increase then they probably should have a higher base points cost be if anything.
Slot Efficiency: The 4++. So, why is this a problem? you have just rendered pure assault terminators irrelevant. With your changes to shooting and the inherent strength of powerfists, the advantages gained by using the TH/SS combo is not even remotely worth what you give up by losing their shooting capabilities. the difference between a 3++ and 4++ is just not enough to give up all that shooting.
I'd nearly forgotten about this. I'd suggested giving ss "models with a storm shield have hammer of wrath" to keep it an attractive choice. Truth is with the increase to base invul 4+, and increasing the base cost of a termie, ie. a sb / pw one, and decreasing the cost of a ss, there might not be much of a difference in cost between the two, this would keep it viable I reckon.
In light of protecting the role of devastators I tend to lean towards your suggestion in keeping it at 1 per 5 heavy weapons. The way I see termies it should be durability=best, close combat=good (assault=very good) shooting =good, mobility=poor. On the other hand one could argue that the assault cannon and heavy flamers are weapons not accessable to devastators, and fulfill shorter range, different roles. (I don't even consider the heavy flamer a heavy weapon in its function.) That still leaves the cyclone launcher of course. Perhaps 1 in 4 heavy weapons would be a fair compromise?
Role Efficiency (or the deathstar problem): While I can understand the desire to combine the differing Terminator types into one unit with many customizations; there is a very important reason that they are separate. Terminators are actually a fairly efficient unit in melee... provided you can get them there. The problem with allowing the unit types to mix - with the changes you already have - is that it is now possible to just make a unit maximized for destroying/surviving everything. You have a squad of 10 terminators with 2-3 TH/SS users at the front to tank hits; 3-4 in the middle with storm bolters and power fists; and 4 in the back with heavy weapons and power fists.
I don't think this will be a problem. Firstly such a mob would be a very expensive unit. Second not an efficient use of points either -if a unit like that gets into melee then the points spent on those heavy weapons is wasted. And if they're taking their time getting into combat, instead shooting away then all the points on those hammers, fists and claws isn't being put to use. Us wolves have been able to mix and match for a long time and it's not as though wolf guard terminators are considered broken or anything...
First, just make the storm bolter assault 3. Second, reduce the invulnerable back to normal or increase the base cost per model to 38-40 points. Third, keep the two Terminator role types separated.
Fine for termies and it'd make it an actually competitive choice for the power-armoured troops that have access to it, but would it benefit Grey Knights too much? Not insurmountable, you could just increase their points too I suppose.
Definately in favour of term points increase and getting that 4++. 5++ always felt meager to me, especially seeing the ease with which anything can get a 4++ cover save these days
First, just make the storm bolter assault 3. Second, reduce the invulnerable back to normal or increase the base cost per model to 38-40 points. Third, keep the two Terminator role types separated.
Fine for termies and it'd make it an actually competitive choice for the power-armoured troops that have access to it, but would it benefit Grey Knights too much? Not insurmountable, you could just increase their points too I suppose.
Definately in favour of term points increase and getting that 4++. 5++ always felt meager to me, especially seeing the ease with which anything can get a 4++ cover save these days
My group has tried out assault 3 storm bolters. We didn't find them to be OTT. While that add a bit of power to grey knights (makes them a bit better vs hordes more than anything) we didn't feel it made them too powerful. In fact we have been playing around with special issue ammunitions for them as well. The special issue ammos are treated as upgrade and the entire squad must take the upgrade for each storm bolter in the squad. In this fashion a 5 pt special issue ammo costs 25 pts for a 5 man unit. Some of our special issue ammo types lower the rof back down to assault 2 like our rending ammo. We still can't decide on point costs on all the different ammos.
Martel732 wrote: That's because extra S4 shooting doesn't matter against good lists, and terminators don't need buffs against weak lists to begin with.
Exactly this. A S5 buff is better, since S4 can be found elsewhere for much cheaper. It also allows wounding of Wraithknights (even if only on 6's).
Too many people are in S4 denial. They think that more S4 shooting will somehow make terminators good or at least worth taking. That is just nonsense to me. Even S5 at 24" is super weak. They need heavy bolters for the range as well. Why is 24" weak? Well, 24" puts your terminators within range of all kinds of nasty stuff just to shoot. If the counter is that they are going to deep strike in exclusively, then terminators should be able to get a 12" gun with very high str or very high ROF.
CrashGordon94 wrote: People are in "S4 denial" because Strength 4 can still be useful, you just have ridiculous standards.
Will reply to other stuff here later on.
We can get S4 literally ANYWHERE else. Remember that Tacticals and Sternguard do more with their Bolters for less. It's not having ridiculous standards. You just have no reason to care about the Stormbolter so long as it stays at S4.
And it's useful in those other places, same thing here. That's why there's reason to care.
Besides there have been proposals for S5 and for Special Ammo if it was necessary to change the attack profile (which it isn't), way better than just plonking Heavy Bolters on them, particularly since Martel's now basically demanding that because of range. Screw that! Termies are legitimately supposed to be short-ranged. Of course that doesn't sit right with Martel, but that's just reason to ignore his input, listening to him will get you a horribly broken, one-dimensional, unfluffy, boring, model-invalidating and just all around awful unit.
CrashGordon94 wrote: And it's useful in those other places, same thing here. That's why there's reason to care.
Besides there have been proposals for S5 and for Special Ammo if it was necessary to change the attack profile (which it isn't), way better than just plonking Heavy Bolters on them, particularly since Martel's now basically demanding that because of range. Screw that! Termies are legitimately supposed to be short-ranged. Of course that doesn't sit right with Martel, but that's just reason to ignore his input, listening to him will get you a horribly broken, one-dimensional, unfluffy, boring, model-invalidating and just all around awful unit.
I agree the range with SBs is fine on Terminators. The only reason I suggested HBs as standard instead of SBs, is because this is a Terminator thread and I didn't want to derail it. I have also been apart of previous HB and SB change threads in the past and they don't ever seem to go well. The majority can't seem to agree on anything.
I personally like the idea of assault 3 SBs with special ammo available to them for a price. Others don't. I also like the idea of HBs having pinning (and giving pinning back to sniper rifles). And don't get me started on the way we handle charge ranges which are too random imo. Shooting and assault need to be more balanced imo. But those are pretty much discussions for elsewhere.
CrashGordon94 wrote: And it's useful in those other places, same thing here. That's why there's reason to care.
Besides there have been proposals for S5 and for Special Ammo if it was necessary to change the attack profile (which it isn't), way better than just plonking Heavy Bolters on them, particularly since Martel's now basically demanding that because of range. Screw that! Termies are legitimately supposed to be short-ranged. Of course that doesn't sit right with Martel, but that's just reason to ignore his input, listening to him will get you a horribly broken, one-dimensional, unfluffy, boring, model-invalidating and just all around awful unit.
I don't agree with Heavy Bolters, though it would actually make them decently threatening. However, the Storm Bolter itself is not threatening. No amount of added shots is going to change that, because S4 is literally everywhere else. Hence why the S5 suggestion makes sense. Nobody WANTS to stock up on Bolter stats anyway.
Add in my proposed change for Teleport Shunt like GK's have, and we are actually talking about a unit that fulfills a role.
...S4 being "literally everywhere else" doesn't magically make it useless or unusable.
I'm not adverse to the S5 idea, but I don't want to get too carried away on their shooting. It's just that the idea that S4 is automatically unusable is baloney.
CrashGordon94 wrote: ...S4 being "literally everywhere else" doesn't magically make it useless or unusable.
I'm not adverse to the S5 idea, but I don't want to get too carried away on their shooting. It's just that the idea that S4 is automatically unusable is baloney.
I agree with you here. I like the idea of S5 bolters, but assault 3 works just as well imo. Either way I am in favor of special ammos. Assault 3 might be better in conjunction with special ammos because it moves more room to play with the profiles imo. But, that is just my personal preference.
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I don't agree with Heavy Bolters, though it would actually make them decently threatening. However, the Storm Bolter itself is not threatening. No amount of added shots is going to change that, because S4 is literally everywhere else. Hence why the S5 suggestion makes sense. Nobody WANTS to stock up on Bolter stats anyway.
Add in my proposed change for Teleport Shunt like GK's have, and we are actually talking about a unit that fulfills a role.
I don't completely agree with you on storm bolters. You can't expect too much for a 5 pt upgrade imo, but I do agree with your idea of a teleport shunt. That would make them vastly more useful so long as it is a once per game thing. I do think SBs and HBs need some changes. I just don't think they need to be HUGE changes.
S5 merely makes the shooting slightly better. It is fine for a 5 point upgrade, considering you can already take a Bolter standard.
Heavy Bolters need 4 shots I'm thinking. Pinning would be cool but killing power is what's needed. Nobody is afraid of Heavy Bolters overall. Therefore, just adding another shot makes them better for horde duty, which IS supposed to be their purpose.
Bolt Weapons as a whole need reworking. I had always figured that, based off the fluff, they'd have Rending, but then Necrons glance everything on a 6 and Eldar actually have Rending against anything with a Toughness value.
Actually, a lot of codices need to be rewritten haha
CrashGordon94 wrote: ...S4 being "literally everywhere else" doesn't magically make it useless or unusable.
I'm not adverse to the S5 idea, but I don't want to get too carried away on their shooting. It's just that the idea that S4 is automatically unusable is baloney.
Unfortunately, against a lot of powerful lists, it's not baloney. S4 is mostly good against lists that terminators don't need buffs to deal with.
Which makes S4 useless in a lot of cases. And since most marine lists already have more S4 than they know what to do with, why would I waste an elite slot on more S4 shooting?
I keep thinking more and more that what we need to do is start handing out nerfs to a lot of weapons to reduce the amount of ap2 and then go from there to reevaluate things. The game is such a mess that I also sometimes wonder if it would be better to start from scratch....
CrashGordon94 wrote: ^Yes, yes it is. Just because stupid OP crap exists doesn't mean S4 is useless, it just means stupid OP crap exists.
You're still missing the point. I can get S4 with Tacticals, Scouts, and Bikers. Plus Sternguard do more damage for the buck compared to Tacticals. Since Special Ammo should be special to them, Terminators need something to stand out. Them throwing out MORE S4 shots doesn't fix them, the Stormbolter, or give them a roll to fulfill.
Martel732 wrote:Which makes S4 useless in a lot of cases.
No, it makes the stupid OP crap stupid OP crap. S4 can still be useful.
Martel732 wrote:And since most marine lists already have more S4 than they know what to do with, why would I waste an elite slot on more S4 shooting?
Because Terminators have (or at least should have and will have with these sort of buffs) other elements than just shooting and S4 can still be useful. Of course YOU don't want it but that only proves you have ridiculously high standards.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:You're still missing the point.
No, you and Martel just don't have one.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:I can get S4 with Tacticals, Scouts, and Bikers.
And it often can be very useful on them, thus the same is true of it on Terminators.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Plus Sternguard do more damage for the buck compared to Tacticals. Since Special Ammo should be special to them, Terminators need something to stand out.
Yeah! Like better Armor, Invulnerable Saves, powerful melee gear, Relentless, Heavy Weapons and the ability to Deep Strike.
These might not have been enough before, but there have been buffs for all of them! Certainly firepower needs a little attention so "assault" Terminators (whether they have their own slot or not) an auto-take, but "more S4 shots" would be perfectly sufficient. Just because you and Martel want a stupid game-breaker and won't be satisfied until you get one doesn't mean it's valid or the path to go when buffing Termies.
Everyone can agree the lasguns can be scary in high numbers and do a number on a unit. S4 is capable of the same, but better because it is already a higher strength, and coming from a model with better BS in space marines. So more S4 would be good, it would just need to be a decent amount of S4 added. Special firing modes would be cool, rather than special ammo that changes the profile of the weapon, more in line with orders that guard get.
Heck, just make them Salvo 2/4 and let them auto use a choice of Bring it Down, Suppressive Fire, Take Aim and Smite at Will, just change the names obviously.
Upto 40 S4 shots with those special rules attached would be good. 20 of them even.
Martel732 wrote: Which makes S4 useless in a lot of cases. And since most marine lists already have more S4 than they know what to do with, why would I waste an elite slot on more S4 shooting?
To look at it another way, you'd be spending your elite slot on a (with proposed changes) rock hard, melee unit...that happens to have S4 assault 3 guns to thin the hordes while they're not in close combat.
Seriously we get it -you disdain terminators having S4 guns. Some of us agree and others don't. By all means offer fresh constructive suggestions, but can we move past re-ittirating the same points? -it's just going in circles.
Personally I would toy with giving storm bolters a version of the Tesla/Shock rule -- getting 2 extra hits on a roll of 6. With this, they do not step on the HB's toes (as it has superior S and AP). Conceptually it works well with them chrning out huge numbers of shots.
Perhaps make them RF 2 as well instead of Assault 2. This is a downgrade though.
Perhaps make them RF 2 as well instead of Assault 2. This is a downgrade though.
Not neccessarily -for terminators it'd be superior to assault 3 I reckon: The vast majority of the time they'll be trying to close the distance to the enemy rather than hanging back so they'll be able to avail of the 4 shots at <12 range more often than not. And they can still shoot and charge a RF weapon because of relentless.
For power armoured troops this has more of an impact as it completely changes the role of the weapon.
They will now want to find themselves within close range of the enemy to avail of double the firepower, so a very deadly voley indeed.
My feeling would be that grey knights being able to pump out 4 shots per model would be OP'd. Sure they can no longer charge, but there might not be much left to charge with 40 bolter shots ripping from each squad...
All said I believe assault 3 is far more preferable to giving it salvo or rapid fire.
Martel732 wrote: Which makes S4 useless in a lot of cases. And since most marine lists already have more S4 than they know what to do with, why would I waste an elite slot on more S4 shooting?
To look at it another way, you'd be spending your elite slot on a (with proposed changes) rock hard, melee unit...that happens to have S4 assault 3 guns to thin the hordes while they're not in close combat.
Seriously we get it -you disdain terminators having S4 guns. Some of us agree and others don't. By all means offer fresh constructive suggestions, but can we move past re-ittirating the same points? -it's just going in circles.
I don't think anything will help outside better firepower, though. This is 7th, not 3rd. I literally can't move past it.
And looking at it your way, melee units that are slow and lack durability suck in 7th. So terminators fail as a melee unit as well.
" but "more S4 shots" would be perfectly sufficient"
I would never take those tactical terminators over buffed assault terminators, just as I don't take tactical terminators now. We have a very important point, you just don't want to accept the reality of 7th ed. Tactical terminators are quite literally the worst unit in the BA codex, which is arguably the worst codex in the game. So the room for improvement for such a unit is ENORMOUS, not minor like more worthless shooting power.
" but that only proves you have ridiculously high standards. "
No, because we are talking the worst unit in the worst codex.
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endlesswaltz123 wrote: Everyone can agree the lasguns can be scary in high numbers and do a number on a unit. S4 is capable of the same, but better because it is already a higher strength, and coming from a model with better BS in space marines. So more S4 would be good, it would just need to be a decent amount of S4 added. Special firing modes would be cool, rather than special ammo that changes the profile of the weapon, more in line with orders that guard get.
Heck, just make them Salvo 2/4 and let them auto use a choice of Bring it Down, Suppressive Fire, Take Aim and Smite at Will, just change the names obviously.
Upto 40 S4 shots with those special rules attached would be good. 20 of them even.
Those lasguns are coming from troops slots, NOT elites. Plus marines can never, ever get the amount of lasgun shots the IG can so the comparison is tenuous at best.
That's why terminators need more durability Martel. Giving them S5 shots isn't really going to do much for them as your paying a gak ton for them to be able to krump in cc.
2 heavies per 5 works pretty well because it actually gives them some firepower that matters. s5 or assault 3 doesn't do that. It just makes them slightly better at killing the things that they were already killing.
Maybe unless we make powerfists optional. Basically the combination of tiny pop gun and huge expensive cc attack on a slow fragile expensive chassis is the worst possible combo in 7th. Although loyalist tac termies have always been garbage.
I don't think anything will help outside better firepower, though. This is 7th, not 3rd. I literally can't move past it.
And looking at it your way, melee units that are slow and lack durability suck in 7th. So terminators fail as a melee unit as well.
Yes Martel but the bulk of this discussion has revolved around increasing their durability. So by your own logic if they were more durable than they wouldn't suck in close combat. Mobility remains poor but that's noit a killer -they've always needed delivery systems to get them into the thick of it, as have a host of other cc units.
What you've highlighted about other units performance vs termies has actually being genuinely useful in stressing how much they need a buff. I'm just saying there's no point in stressing any more that you firmly believe S4 guns for terminators are useless, any more than there's any point in me harping on that plasma should be AP3. Point made many times already , you know what I mean?
Martel732 wrote:Which makes S4 useless in a lot of cases.
No, it makes the stupid OP crap stupid OP crap. S4 can still be useful.
Martel732 wrote:And since most marine lists already have more S4 than they know what to do with, why would I waste an elite slot on more S4 shooting?
Because Terminators have (or at least should have and will have with these sort of buffs) other elements than just shooting and S4 can still be useful. Of course YOU don't want it but that only proves you have ridiculously high standards.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:You're still missing the point.
No, you and Martel just don't have one.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:I can get S4 with Tacticals, Scouts, and Bikers.
And it often can be very useful on them, thus the same is true of it on Terminators.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Plus Sternguard do more damage for the buck compared to Tacticals. Since Special Ammo should be special to them, Terminators need something to stand out.
Yeah! Like better Armor, Invulnerable Saves, powerful melee gear, Relentless, Heavy Weapons and the ability to Deep Strike.
These might not have been enough before, but there have been buffs for all of them! Certainly firepower needs a little attention so "assault" Terminators (whether they have their own slot or not) an auto-take, but "more S4 shots" would be perfectly sufficient. Just because you and Martel want a stupid game-breaker and won't be satisfied until you get one doesn't mean it's valid or the path to go when buffing Termies.
I've already showed Mathhammer when Banshees, who shouldn't be going after Terminators, have a good chance of wiping out a decent amount of the squad for the points. Go ahead and throw out the "powerful melee" thing again. I dare you.
And for the record, what's Relentless have to do with anything? Based off the fact they've had those weapons forever and they were just now turned Relentless, is it REALLY a buff?
The answer is that they don't NEED more S4 shots in the army. Two Tactical Marines are already more durable and throw out the same exact firepower for the points. Since Terminators won't get into melee very well without a change to Land Raiders or being given a Teleport Shunt, the Power Fist is wasted. And no amount of more S4 is going to make a Sisters player take Stormbolters or want us to keep them on our Terminator Characters, because there's more efficient means to get Bolter stats.
Therefore, to make Tactical Terminators more attractive, we buff the strength of the Storm Bolter. S5 puts out only a few more wounds than S4, but it allows better wounding of Monstrous Creatures or vehicles (which are intended targets) and does a marginal job of handling hordes better.
Storm Bolters are supposed to be the middle ground of Bolters and Heavy Bolters. Anything else suggested might as well just be a Combi-Bolter.
Martel732 wrote: An entire squad paying for power fists that is on foot is never going to be viable without real shooting.
Maybe so. but one of the major points proposed was to downgrade the standard loadout to storm bolter & power weapon, - also serving reducing the base cost - with the option to buy fists. Thankfully I play wolves so I already have this option. Much as I like having that advantage, I'd be willing to share it with my fellow chapters, for the greater good.
I don't think anything will help outside better firepower, though. This is 7th, not 3rd. I literally can't move past it.
And looking at it your way, melee units that are slow and lack durability suck in 7th. So terminators fail as a melee unit as well.
Yes Martel but the bulk of this discussion has revolved around increasing their durability. So by your own logic if they were more durable than they wouldn't suck in close combat. Mobility remains poor but that's noit a killer -they've always needed delivery systems to get them into the thick of it, as have a host of other cc units.
What you've highlighted about other units performance vs termies has actually being genuinely useful in stressing how much they need a buff. I'm just saying there's no point in stressing any more that you firmly believe S4 guns for terminators are useless, any more than there's any point in me harping on that plasma should be AP3. Point made many times already , you know what I mean?
Also, I agree that plasma should be AP 3 and krak missiles AP 2.
Yeah, I agree. In the case of many weapons there's a big disparity between their ability to pierce tank armour and their ability to pierce body armour, which doesn't really hold up under examination and is really down to a ballancing mechanic, which while fuin, is more akin to something you'd see in an arcade game.
Martel732 wrote:Which makes S4 useless in a lot of cases.
No, it makes the stupid OP crap stupid OP crap. S4 can still be useful.
Martel732 wrote:And since most marine lists already have more S4 than they know what to do with, why would I waste an elite slot on more S4 shooting?
Because Terminators have (or at least should have and will have with these sort of buffs) other elements than just shooting and S4 can still be useful. Of course YOU don't want it but that only proves you have ridiculously high standards.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:You're still missing the point.
No, you and Martel just don't have one.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:I can get S4 with Tacticals, Scouts, and Bikers.
And it often can be very useful on them, thus the same is true of it on Terminators.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Plus Sternguard do more damage for the buck compared to Tacticals. Since Special Ammo should be special to them, Terminators need something to stand out.
Yeah! Like better Armor, Invulnerable Saves, powerful melee gear, Relentless, Heavy Weapons and the ability to Deep Strike.
These might not have been enough before, but there have been buffs for all of them! Certainly firepower needs a little attention so "assault" Terminators (whether they have their own slot or not) an auto-take, but "more S4 shots" would be perfectly sufficient. Just because you and Martel want a stupid game-breaker and won't be satisfied until you get one doesn't mean it's valid or the path to go when buffing Termies.
I've already showed Mathhammer when Banshees, who shouldn't be going after Terminators, have a good chance of wiping out a decent amount of the squad for the points. Go ahead and throw out the "powerful melee" thing again. I dare you.
And for the record, what's Relentless have to do with anything? Based off the fact they've had those weapons forever and they were just now turned Relentless, is it REALLY a buff?
The answer is that they don't NEED more S4 shots in the army. Two Tactical Marines are already more durable and throw out the same exact firepower for the points. Since Terminators won't get into melee very well without a change to Land Raiders or being given a Teleport Shunt, the Power Fist is wasted. And no amount of more S4 is going to make a Sisters player take Stormbolters or want us to keep them on our Terminator Characters, because there's more efficient means to get Bolter stats.
Therefore, to make Tactical Terminators more attractive, we buff the strength of the Storm Bolter. S5 puts out only a few more wounds than S4, but it allows better wounding of Monstrous Creatures or vehicles (which are intended targets) and does a marginal job of handling hordes better.
Storm Bolters are supposed to be the middle ground of Bolters and Heavy Bolters. Anything else suggested might as well just be a Combi-Bolter.
You know Slayer-Fan, for all this talk of terminators being bad in melee and “potentially losing to a squad of banshee’s cause you have mathhammered it,” I couldn’t actually find the math for this anywhere in the thread. So, I decided to show you some mathhammer on it… with actual numbers. I’ll give the Banshee’s the charge since they’ll need all the help they can get and ignore overwatch since it statistically does nothing here. I’ll be rounding up or down with resulting numbers to make things simple.
The 10 Banshees and 1 Exarch get 34 attacks on the charge hitting one 4’s for banshees and 3’s for the Exarch. Of these: 18 hit.
Unfortunately this is where things go South for our furious females because all those strength 3 attacks only actually cause 6 wounds.
1 Terminator dies: YAY.
Now the pain-train begins: the Terminators get 8 attacks back with 4 hitting.
All 4 of these are going to wound after rounding and 4 banshees die. (We’ll assume the exarch will always live til the end.)
Things are now repeated; but, unfortunately for our space-elf friends, without the bonus charge attacks they will only get through a grand total of 3 wounds. (I rounded up for them)
Naturally, 3 wounds fail to get through the saves, and this only gets worse with every round.
Statistically, after the first round the Banshees will fail to kill another terminator - EVER.
So, as we can see from some actual math, the Banshees would probably have a better chance again Terminators if they stayed at range and tried to luck out on the Bladestorm ability of their pistols. Without the charge their chances of even killing 1 Terminator become slim indeed. In fact, the only way that Banshees don’t get absolutely slaughtered if if the Exarch brings an Executioner. Then, with that nice AP 2 on their side the Banshees will win after 2 full rounds of combat. (I still gave them the charge) Even in this scenario, the Exarch kills every Terminator except the one that the banshees get on the initial charge. Clearly, this problem with terminators sucking in melee isn’t true once actual math is involved.
Now, as to the actual changes: I was able to do some testing yesterday at my FLGS. We tried out my slightly modified version of Doom’s rules and the results were… ridiculous. If you have plenty of AP 2 (my tau) then they are basically the same. On the other hand, if you didn’t things were really bad. After doing the some more math we quickly figured out why. My initial judgement that TH/SS would not longer be worth it could not have been more wrong. If you lacked AP 2, then your odds of having a wound go through on those guys went from 1 in 6 to 1 in 18. Needless to say, 200% defensive ability increase over before was just a weee bit more than these guys need. Honestly, even the 100% increase we were seeing from the 4+ invulnerable regular ones was insane with their increased firepower. I watched a full squad take almost 800 points off the board in a game. The problem was that their efficiency was significantly higher in play than on paper because so many more of them were surviving to fire for multiple rounds. The Assault Terminator’s killiness was largely unaffected since they only got more tanky.
With all this in mind I decided to suggest something a little different this time around. SB’s become Assault 2 with RF. This makes them actually have to choose between good shooting and using their charge. 2 Heavy Weapons per 5 members. Toughness goes up to 5. (Better resistance to low strength spam while still being largely the same against low ROF high strength weapons.) And finally, Terminators can now sweeping advance. (This is to help the assault kill things a little faster overall - I mean, if a Dreadnought can still do it, right?)
I suppose you forgot the shooting too. The Mathhammer took place in another thread. You're also doing math where there isn't 175 points of Banshees (more if we put upgrades on the Terminators). 10 and an Exarch doesn't seem correct, but I don't have my computer in front of me.
It says a lot, though, that one of the supposedly terrible targets for Banshees actually has a good chance at losing.
Also don't forget they're going to be taken in the formation that gives them WS5, because it would be stupid to waste the Elite Slot on them. In that fairness when I did the numbers I did various CT's (like Imperial Fists attempting to shoot them before they charge, Carcharodons with Fear, Black Templars with Counter Attack did good though, etc).
Kinda surprised that you went with that level of gear customization, unexpected but would be interesting to see!
