So, I was thinking this morning about the reasoning as to why people hate some armies more than others. But then I got curious.

Just a general question to you guys: What is your least favorite army to fight against and why? Could be for any reason, to OP codex, to dislike of the playstyle, ext.

Mine, personally, is Eldar. Their book is just multiple levels of annoying/broken, and even casual games against them usually end up ridiculous.

Cannot think about an army I cannot beat with Eldar or Necrons.
In the 3rd edition, it was Tyranids.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Cannot think about an army I cannot beat with Eldar or Necrons.
In the 3rd edition, it was Tyranids.

Doesn't necessarily have to be an army you cannot beat. I almost never lose to Eldar, I just hate playing against them.

Tau or Necrons. My one buddy is pretty good and won't often bring tons of cheese, but a kitted out Necron Decurion with Wraiths with RP is just so damn boring to fight. Nothing dies, and all of your Ghost Arks are nigh impenetrable.

Tau I just hate fighting because I feel as if it doesn't matter whether I'm there or not. "Hiding behind cover? lol SMS" "Jinking? lol Markerlights for Ignore Cover" "Almost got me pinned down? lol JSJ"

I voted orks. I play tau. I know it might be a contradiction, but I don't bother to play against an army. I play against my opponent. and my opponent always brings a green tide to timed games and we never seem to get beyond turn two.

I hate playing against tau. Not fun to play against. Mostly because marker-lights and supporting fire.

Tau necrons or eldar.

Tau & Eldar -> Shoots hard runs away harder then you can get to them

Necrons -> Don't shoot that hard but just don't die. Making games dull.

Necrons. The strategy devolves into throwing my dudes into their dudes and hoping the game ends while I'm in dogpiles around objectives. It's a funny spectacle the first time, now it's just annoying. And because their army doesn't really degrade over the course of the game, their turns take just as long each round.

Tau are a close followup for the same reason, albeit a slightly different result. Regardless of what you're playing as, your best strategy tends to be something resembling a Zerg rush.

 jreilly89 wrote:
Tau or Necrons. My one buddy is pretty good and won't often bring tons of cheese, but a kitted out Necron Decurion with Wraiths with RP is just so damn boring to fight. Nothing dies, and all of your Ghost Arks are nigh impenetrable.

Tau I just hate fighting because I feel as if it doesn't matter whether I'm there or not. "Hiding behind cover? lol SMS" "Jinking? lol Markerlights for Ignore Cover" "Almost got me pinned down? lol JSJ"

I can agree about the Decurion. Though I don't play against Necrons, I understand the frustration. Though, Ghost Arks being Impenetrable is a bit weird, as mine typically get targeted first and die easily.

30k Mechanicum (kicks my ass, Though I am learning how to deal with them)

Beyond that, nothing much really. Eldar, Tau, and 'Crons are strong (and beat 30k armies fairly easily, but that's most 40k v 30k games) but I don't really hate them. If anything, I HATE Dark Angels, but that's because I loath their fluff.

Tau and necrons. I own both armies and people request I bring Eldar instead

 krodarklorr wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
Tau or Necrons. My one buddy is pretty good and won't often bring tons of cheese, but a kitted out Necron Decurion with Wraiths with RP is just so damn boring to fight. Nothing dies, and all of your Ghost Arks are nigh impenetrable.

Tau I just hate fighting because I feel as if it doesn't matter whether I'm there or not. "Hiding behind cover? lol SMS" "Jinking? lol Markerlights for Ignore Cover" "Almost got me pinned down? lol JSJ"

I can agree about the Decurion. Though I don't play against Necrons, I understand the frustration. Though, Ghost Arks being Impenetrable is a bit weird, as mine typically get targeted first and die easily.

By what? Not an insult, an honest question. Outside of Meltas, which still struggle against a Jinking GA, I feel like nothing else can get through their AV 13 shield.

I severely dislike Necrons. They don't die, it gets boring to fight. And the local necron players don't make the experience any more fun. Ones favorite argument was in a 4k point team game "No D weapons cus they ignore re-animation" which yes is a player issue not an army one but no fun just the same.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
Tau or Necrons. My one buddy is pretty good and won't often bring tons of cheese, but a kitted out Necron Decurion with Wraiths with RP is just so damn boring to fight. Nothing dies, and all of your Ghost Arks are nigh impenetrable.

Tau I just hate fighting because I feel as if it doesn't matter whether I'm there or not. "Hiding behind cover? lol SMS" "Jinking? lol Markerlights for Ignore Cover" "Almost got me pinned down? lol JSJ"

I can agree about the Decurion. Though I don't play against Necrons, I understand the frustration. Though, Ghost Arks being Impenetrable is a bit weird, as mine typically get targeted first and die easily.

By what? Not an insult, an honest question. Outside of Meltas, which still struggle against a Jinking GA, I feel like nothing else can get through their AV 13 shield.

Well, once a Ghost Ark gave up first blood to a Zzap gun. Then the following game it blew up turn 1 from an Obliterator Lascannon. Then it was immobilized (but somehow not killed) by a Nova Charged Ion Accelerator. Then there's my Marine friend's Imperial Fist Devs with Lascannons. Then Twin-linked Brightlances on my friends Wave Serpents, which always seem to pen. then take into account all of the melta from my friend's Sister's squads or Deep Striking Crisis teams.


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 Chapter Master Angelos wrote:
I severely dislike Necrons. They don't die, it gets boring to fight. And the local necron players don't make the experience any more fun. Ones favorite argument was in a 4k point team game "No D weapons cus they ignore re-animation" which yes is a player issue not an army one but no fun just the same.

In his defense, I dislike D-weapons in 2k games or smaller, but in 4k they should be allowed, albeit in moderation.

Nids.

Tau, only because Necrons at least move around a bit while not interacting with you in any way.

Marine Bikes and or variants thereof.
Loathe facing them.

Necrons first and foremost just not fun to play against. Completely non interactive, often very easy to win with without really doing anything with the opponent, and for an army about slow plodding doom, theyre probably the fastest army in the game after CWE/DE.

Eldar would be next, for all the obvious reasons. They can outshoot even the exclusively SAFH armies like IG and Tau , outrun everyone, and still be incredibly resilient, and still do well in CC to boot if they want. They have no downsides, though at least you can kill some of them usually.

Knights are another one I'm not a fan of, but almost every event and league I know of has heavily restricted their use such that they cannot be fielded as an army really, so theyre less of an issue. Basically nobody allows full Knight armies to be run anymore so its not there to be bothered by.

Space Marines can be pretty bad too, but most of the is primarily formation shenanigans.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Necrons first and foremost just not fun to play against. Completely non interactive, often very easy to win with without really doing anything with the opponent, and for an army about slow plodding doom, theyre probably the fastest army in the game after CWE/DE.

Eldar would be next, for all the obvious reasons. They can outshoot even the exclusively SAFH armies like IG and Tau , outrun everyone, and still be incredibly resilient, and still do well in CC to boot if they want. They have no downsides, though at least you can kill some of them usually.

Knights are another one I'm not a fan of, but almost every event and league I know of has heavily restricted their use such that they cannot be fielded as an army really, so theyre less of an issue. Basically nobody allows full Knight armies to be run anymore so its not there to be bothered by.

Space Marines can be pretty bad too, but most of the is primarily formation shenanigans.

Pretty sure ITC still allows the Knight armies. Wasn't there one at LVO?

Necrons. You get through a game against them, but I've never enjoyed it.

Akiasura wrote:
Tau and necrons. I own both armies and people request I bring Eldar instead

Eldar are very fragile they are just mobile. Riptides and decurian units are close to being indestructible in a standard game. Kinda hard to have fun when you are the only one picking up models.

I think Tau for me. Or at least my mate Tau, who basically gunlines with the ADL.

I guess it makes it easier to finish our games in time but god almighty when it's just me moving around it's boring. That's why my Tau are mobile (Devilfish, Riptides, Ghostkeels, Stealthsuits and co).

Imperial Guard is not in the poll. I would vote for them. I beat them almost every time, but plain humans are just so boring to play against, especially if they are running a static list. I have never had an interest in them, so I have to constantly ask my opponent what units do what. Even when I think I have everything down, someone brings something new I haven't seen yet.

Actually, that is what I hate the most: Having to constantly ask what does what. There are waaaaaay too many Force World armies in my local area. As FW stuff is not as easily accessible to me, I never consider it. I often skip out on games because they only options are Imp Guard, 30K Mechanicus or Renegades.

I used to know every army back in 6th, but with all the super fast releases and FW stuff becoming more acceptable, I cannot keep up with everything. This is why I will never play WarmaHordes. Too much new stuff all at once, plus constant releases.

I should point out that all the people who play these armies are people I consider my friends and great opponents, I just want to play straight "40K" on casual night, not "have to constantly think, leave with a headarch 30K". Where are all the Marines and Xenos when I need them?

Wow. I knew Necrons were unpopular, but I would think that Eldar would beat us in this poll.

Eldar are at least killable and can be played without resorting to all Scatterbike & WKs. A good player can at least have an engaging game with them.

Necrons almost have to play Decurion. Even tabling them (which I have done twice) isn't very fun since you are spending the bulk of 5-7 turns just killing the same units with very slow returns.

 Galef wrote:
Imperial Guard is not in the poll. I would vote for them. I beat them almost every time, but plain humans are just so boring to play against, especially if they are running a static list. I have never had an interest in them, so I have to constantly ask my opponent what units do what. Even when I think I have everything down, someone brings something new I haven't seen yet.

Actually, that is what I hate the most: Having to constantly ask what does what. There are waaaaaay too many Force World armies in my local area. As FW stuff is not as easily accessible to me, I never consider it. I often skip out on games because they only options are Imp Guard, 30K Mechanicus or Renegades.

I used to know every army back in 6th, but with all the super fast releases and FW stuff becoming more acceptable, I cannot keep up with everything. This is why I will never play WarmaHordes. Too much new stuff all at once, plus constant releases.

I should point out that all the people who play these armies are people I consider my friends and great opponents, I just want to play straight "40K" on casual night, not "have to constantly think, leave with a headarch 30K". Where are all the Marines and Xenos when I need them?

ask to read the rules before the game, just like any new codex update? FW should be significantly less of a headache than normal studio releases these days, and if youve got a credit card or Internet connection, rhey should be no less accessbile than many normal studio releases, and increaingly there is less and less (or no) price difference.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Imperial Guard is not in the poll. I would vote for them. I beat them almost every time, but plain humans are just so boring to play against, especially if they are running a static list. I have never had an interest in them, so I have to constantly ask my opponent what units do what. Even when I think I have everything down, someone brings something new I haven't seen yet.

Actually, that is what I hate the most: Having to constantly ask what does what. There are waaaaaay too many Force World armies in my local area. As FW stuff is not as easily accessible to me, I never consider it. I often skip out on games because they only options are Imp Guard, 30K Mechanicus or Renegades.

I used to know every army back in 6th, but with all the super fast releases and FW stuff becoming more acceptable, I cannot keep up with everything. This is why I will never play WarmaHordes. Too much new stuff all at once, plus constant releases.

I should point out that all the people who play these armies are people I consider my friends and great opponents, I just want to play straight "40K" on casual night, not "have to constantly think, leave with a headarch 30K". Where are all the Marines and Xenos when I need them?

ask to read the rules before the game, just like any new codex update? FW should be significantly less of a headache than normal studio releases these days, and if youve got a credit card or Internet connection, rhey should be no less accessbile than many normal studio releases, and increaingly there is less and less (or no) price difference.

This is the issue though. I am used to knowing 90% of every army, but in the last 2-3 years that knowledge has dropped. In order to feel comfortable with new rules, I want some time beforehand to go over them. My opponents always have their rules available and are more than willing to show them, but I just want to play, not spend 30+ minutes going over new stuff.

I am becoming more familiar with the specific stuff my local friends are playing, but the lightening speed everything else is coming out with makes it more work than I prefer. The worst games I have every palyed had nothing to do with losing, or even a bad opponent, but by being "surprised" by something I wasn't prepared for. Knowing about something is different than "prepared" for it mentally.

This is, of course, a personal quirk and not something I think is wrong with the game. More variety is always better.

--

I have a sinking suspicion of how this will end.

Top 3 will be.... Eldar, Tau, Necrons.

I chose eldar, I've only faced them once that wasn't just terrible. where I have faced Tau several times that were not bad, and necrons quite a few times that were not terrible.

To me it's Imperial Knight. It's an army made of one unit that about only 10% of a regular army can even hope to damage while it can target and kill, some with more ease than other, all that I put against it.

edition after edition, it'll always be the Eldar. They have way too many shenanigans in each edition, even if it's not some blatantly OP stuff like Gargantuan Wraithknights.

Eldar or necrons for me

Elder only if the opponent brings nothing but Scat bikes and Wraithknights

Neurons because of the way Reanimation works this edition. If they changed it back to the old way of rolling for reanimation at the END of the phase and not after each individual model dies would make people much more apt to play against Necrons. And if the entire squad is destroyed you don't get reanimation.

Tau because they never move and the result of the game is not up to you. You dont play against Tau, you play red light green light while the Tau are shooting you.

How many models shall I remove this turn, Tau overlords?

Still, I voted for Eldar because of the sheer stupidity.

No Imperial Guard? Neat, voted for Orks because I can't stand them

 Galef wrote:
Eldar are at least killable and can be played without resorting to all Scatterbike & WKs. A good player can at least have an engaging game with them.

Necrons almost have to play Decurion. Even tabling them (which I have done twice) isn't very fun since you are spending the bulk of 5-7 turns just killing the same units with very slow returns.

What do you mean by "have to play Decurion"?


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 Bobthehero wrote:
No Imperial Guard? Neat, voted for Orks because I can't stand them

I completely forgot about them, honestly. I added them to the list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

notredameguy10 wrote:
Eldar or necrons for me

Elder only if the opponent brings nothing but Scat bikes and Wraithknights

Neurons because of the way Reanimation works this edition. If they changed it back to the old way of rolling for reanimation at the END of the phase and not after each individual model dies would make people much more apt to play against Necrons. And if the entire squad is destroyed you don't get reanimation.

Yes, please, give people another way to ignore the only army-wide special rule we get. Woohoo!

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Eldar are at least killable and can be played without resorting to all Scatterbike & WKs. A good player can at least have an engaging game with them.

Necrons almost have to play Decurion. Even tabling them (which I have done twice) isn't very fun since you are spending the bulk of 5-7 turns just killing the same units with very slow returns.

What do you mean by "have to play Decurion"?

I said "almost". Basically the bonuses and formations are so good and work so well together that the majority of Necrons players either play Decurion, or at the very least one of it's formations. Don't get me wrong, I actually like playing against Necrons, even the Decurion. I think it is incredibly well balanced and fluffy. I was just trying to explain why some people are more OK with playing Eldar than Necrons.

 Galef wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Eldar are at least killable and can be played without resorting to all Scatterbike & WKs. A good player can at least have an engaging game with them.

Necrons almost have to play Decurion. Even tabling them (which I have done twice) isn't very fun since you are spending the bulk of 5-7 turns just killing the same units with very slow returns.

What do you mean by "have to play Decurion"?

I said "almost". Basically the bonuses and formations are so good and work so well together that the majority of Necrons players either play Decurion, or at the very least one of it's formations. Don't get me wrong, I actually like playing against Necrons, even the Decurion. I think it is incredibly well balanced and fluffy. I was just trying to explain why some people are more OK with playing Eldar than Necrons.

Oh I completely agree on all your points, I was just curious about what you meant. I personally always play Decurion just because of how fluffy it is, and how well it works together. I also try to not bring Wraiths or Destroyers in most games as well.

It's a close tossup between Eldar and Necrons, but I'd probably have to say Eldar, if only for Wraithguard spam and Wraithknights on top of everything. Necron Canoptek Wraith spam is a close second.

Honorable Mentions go to Ravenwing with 2+ re-rollable jink. I can beat them fairly regularly but it's just incredible annoying.

Also Chaos Space Marine with Noise Marines, Heldrake and Nurgle Daemon Prince. I have only won once against said list. They pop my transports and remove entire squads in a single turn.

So I feel like this is a good place to mention that I have won 2 tourneys with Eldar & Necron allied list.

Scatterbikes + WK + Crimson Hunter + 2, yes 2 Canoptek Harvests. It did this to point out how ludicrous Come the Apoc allies could be and how Battle Forged armies are basically just Unbound with a small tax. "One eye Open" is a joke rule that any mobile army can easily avoid.

Not only did I win the tourneys, I received full points in every game. I felt so bad in one of tourney that I conceeded my winnings to my 3 opponents. I have since eBay'ed the Harvests and am focused back to just Eldar.

So for those who think it's a toss up between Eldar "or" Necrons, just be glad you haven't faced Eldar "and" Necrons

Imperial Guard for me. I appreciate I haven't played a massive variety of their armies, but it tends to boil down to them either blasting you off the board in which case they will likely win, or you close the distance and shred them with close range fire/close combat, in which case they're screwed. I expect I'd feel the same way about tau if I ever played against them.

Always Necron for me. It's just the least interactive and least fun army to fight, really.
At least, if you catch Eldar, you can kill them. (Quite) the same the other way around. But Necrons.... Feth 4+++.

I find crons to be the dullest

But really all of the armies are tedious.

It would be easier for me to say i love playing against orks. thats about it.

 Galef wrote:
So I feel like this is a good place to mention that I have won 2 tourneys with Eldar & Necron allied list.

Scatterbikes + WK + Crimson Hunter + 2, yes 2 Canoptek Harvests. It did this to point out how ludicrous Come the Apoc allies could be and how Battle Forged armies are basically just Unbound with a small tax. "One eye Open" is a joke rule that any mobile army can easily avoid.

Not only did I win the tourneys, I received full points in every game. I felt so bad in one of tourney that I conceeded my winnings to my 3 opponents. I have since eBay'ed the Harvests and am focused back to just Eldar.

So for those who think it's a toss up between Eldar "or" Necrons, just be glad you haven't faced Eldar "and" Necrons

That sounds pretty broken, but I think Taudar are still worst for "worst allied army to face". Despite not being BB anymore, I still know a guy who runs a nasty nasty Taudar list.

 Galef wrote:
So I feel like this is a good place to mention that I have won 2 tourneys with Eldar & Necron allied list.

Scatterbikes + WK + Crimson Hunter + 2, yes 2 Canoptek Harvests. It did this to point out how ludicrous Come the Apoc allies could be and how Battle Forged armies are basically just Unbound with a small tax. "One eye Open" is a joke rule that any mobile army can easily avoid.

Not only did I win the tourneys, I received full points in every game. I felt so bad in one of tourney that I conceeded my winnings to my 3 opponents. I have since eBay'ed the Harvests and am focused back to just Eldar.

So for those who think it's a toss up between Eldar "or" Necrons, just be glad you haven't faced Eldar "and" Necrons

Your bring up a good point to be honest. And I know a few armies have love-hate relationships with the player base.

On a personal note though I have a lot of fun playing against Eldar, I may not always win and sometimes I get my face caved in, but for all their "opness" I find them fun, even to lose to.

I voted Tau. Mostly because I like to run Space Marine bike armies and facing Tau is a nightmare with them.

What do people mean by Necrons aren't "interactive"? I guess I've never heard that in the context of this game.

 EnTyme wrote:
What do people mean by Necrons aren't "interactive"? I guess I've never heard that in the context of this game.

You shoot your army at them, most get back up. and there is no counter to that ability besides D which really doesn't belong in 40k.
IMHO

I got trigger happy and voted Eldar. Then i saw Knights was an option!

So Knights, meehhhhhhhhhhhhh.
Sure just 3 knights versus my non Brain Leech Nids i'd win a alot easier versus not winning at versus Eldar. But 3 models that i'm just going to jump around and not engage is just boring.

Eldar, sure out combatted,, out gunned and out paced, but least i might kill something even if i'm not gonna win. Unless ofc they bring a selective bad list, like those Eldar players exist!

 EnTyme wrote:
What do people mean by Necrons aren't "interactive"? I guess I've never heard that in the context of this game.

As noted, its basically when the opponents actions have no meaningful effect on the Necrons, they just ignore too much stuff. They generally only care about morale if heavily defeated in CC, theyre damn near impossible to kill, and are incredibly difficult to block in terms of maneuver as they can ignore or bypass many movement restrictions (either with Relentless, Jetbikes, Flyer Transports, open topped AV13 transports, Wraiths ignoring terrain entirely, etc).

Wraitja are probably the worst offenders. Obscenly and unreasonably hard to kill, able to move 12" a turn and not care about terrain, fearless in CC, etc. They just go and do their thing, and often theres nothing an opponent can do about it.

I think having a bit of scaling to things like reanimation protocols and tau marker lights outright ignoring cover would help a lot. It doesn't make sense that a warrior can ignore a bolter and plasma gun with the same roll.

Eldar just need a couple price adjustments to be better off, wraithknights should be considerably higher, and wraith guard should return to the 6th edition profile of weapons and maybe n ap2 fleshbane flame weapon instead of what we get now.

Mind you I play csm and find it shocking what new things all the other factions get while I sit at home painting my cultists.

Necrons, because the only interaction I have with my opponent is camping objectives and removing my models from the board.

None of the above. I have no problem facing any army. It's the people that bother me. Not everyone of course. Just certain players.

Eldar because they are just so powerful to the point of stupidity.

Tau are the most boring though because most of the game is just getting shot at with overwhelming firepower.

Interestingly I do pretty good against Necrons, I just have to accept that the Wraiths will destroy me. Every other unit in the codex I have a pretty good answer for because I can remove their armor save so I don't have to deal with a 4+++ as well. 5 out of 15 people play Necrons so it is kind of a find an answer or suffer deal.

Eldar, everyone has moved away from Eldar and the holdout has moved for business. Everyone is happy.

Tau, three guys left. Two are pretty cool, the third is an ass. He is the reason people don't like Tau.

I vote Tau.

I chose Tau.

I play CSM, With my limited FA and Transport options and Tau having JSJ, Ignores cover, overall higher strength weapons, and other general nasty goodness, they have been become the bane of my gaming existence. MoN is required to keep me "Marine durable", I can't out shoot them, I can't catch them to club them to death, can't even hide the cultists on objectives to "play the mission". It feels like the army was designed with the one goal to invalidate all the other armies.

You have walkers that move 6 inches and have poor rules? Here's my "monstrous creature" that can JSJ 12 inches and FNP and armor save through all you got.

Trying to spam some flyers or drop pods to counter my maneuverability? Good thing half my army as access to sky fire and intercept.

Trying to blind me to hinder my shooting? Black sun visors for everyone!

You want to assault me? Combined overwatch all around!

Can't assault, so your gonna shoot at me? I'm fine with that. My range is the table, yours is 48 inches tops.

Oh, now your hiding in cover. Let me use these marker lights that I have with every unit and show you why that is a bad idea.

Also, my transport is faster than yours, and a skimmer so it can jink just by moving an inch. Don't worry, you have smoke you can pop for a turn if your scared. (The cover save isn't gonna help you anyway)

I could go on, but you get the point. I like Eldar more than Tau because most Eldar players are either the "scatterbikes, wraith-whatever, etc" guy no one plays with or the "plays the army cause they like them and will actually give you a chance" guy. I've yet to come across a tau list that is fun for me to play against. Even against my buddy who can tone it down a lot, his tau still are just too much to handle. They have an answer for everything I can bring, at half the cost. Take it as whining or not, but I only feel hate for them, It's the only army that forces me to ignore the entire assault phase of the game.

/rant

Tau. Straight up cannot stand them. Absolutely nothing I like about them; aesthetic, fluff, models, rules, playstyle. Cannot stand them across the board. Have not ever had a single game that I have enjoyed against them. It's gotten to the point where I won't even bother playing against them in any way or form, which is a shame because I like the social aspect of the game but its hard to focus on that when all I want to do is flip the table and crush every fugly model underfoot.

I. Loathe. Grey Knights. I hate them. Actually, there's no real word to describe how much I despise Grey Knights. If such a word were created, I would say it wasn't enough.

This unmitigated hatred comes from the fact that the vast majority of people who play them do the SAME damn list EVERY single time: All 2+ armor, heavy Alpha Strike. No creativity, crutches that have crutches for bad strategy and the ability to ID whatever the heck they want thanks to Force weaponry that affects every model. As a Tyranid player, there's nothing worse. As a Daemon player, that's just great; Preferred Enemy on top of saving most every wound. More Psychic dice than they know what to do with. And Torrent on Dreadknights besides? Great... Thanks.

I can't even think what second place would be. It would be like a race across America starting at Los Angeles port. When Grey Knights reaches the Jersey shore every other army crossed the California-Nevada border....

Tropic Thunder wrote:
I. Loathe. Grey Knights. I hate them. Actually, there's no real word to describe how much I despise Grey Knights. If such a word were created, I would say it wasn't enough.

This unmitigated hatred comes from the fact that the vast majority of people who play them do the SAME damn list EVERY single time: All 2+ armor,

To be fair, that's not out of character for the army, when originally introduced the entire chapter was all terminators, and their fluff has always been that every brother can be equipped with terminator armor if required for the mission.

heavy Alpha Strike.

That's pretty much how every competitive list works these days, and the GK's don't have a whole lot of alternatives in terms of functional army list as half the book just doesn't work in the 7.5E meta.

None of the armies. I'm fine with facing pretty much anything. For me it's more the player rather than the army that might irritate me

Eldar and Tau.

As a vanilla Space Marine player who...you know, actually has to play by the rules in the 40k rulebook, I'm not a fan of armies that don't. Also, feth wraithknights and various other assorted OP monstrous and gargantuan monstrous creatures, etc.

Tropic Thunder wrote:
I. Loathe. Grey Knights. I hate them. Actually, there's no real word to describe how much I despise Grey Knights. If such a word were created, I would say it wasn't enough.

This unmitigated hatred comes from the fact that the vast majority of people who play them do the SAME damn list EVERY single time: All 2+ armor, heavy Alpha Strike. No creativity, crutches that have crutches for bad strategy and the ability to ID whatever the heck they want thanks to Force weaponry that affects every model. As a Tyranid player, there's nothing worse. As a Daemon player, that's just great; Preferred Enemy on top of saving most every wound. More Psychic dice than they know what to do with. And Torrent on Dreadknights besides? Great... Thanks.

I can't even think what second place would be. It would be like a race across America starting at Los Angeles port. When Grey Knights reaches the Jersey shore every other army crossed the California-Nevada border....

I play GK and I hate them too. Really only 1 good unit in the army (NDK) - hence the lack of creativity. My advice to you would be to sit your MC in cover and then you get to strike first against the knight - and save all your denial dice to counter activate force (everything else you can let by). I'd also advise you to bring tervigons. Spamming fearless fodder to tie up the NDK is a great way to beat them. Flyrants can wither them down pretty good too.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Tropic Thunder wrote:
I. Loathe. Grey Knights. I hate them. Actually, there's no real word to describe how much I despise Grey Knights. If such a word were created, I would say it wasn't enough.

This unmitigated hatred comes from the fact that the vast majority of people who play them do the SAME damn list EVERY single time: All 2+ armor, heavy Alpha Strike. No creativity, crutches that have crutches for bad strategy and the ability to ID whatever the heck they want thanks to Force weaponry that affects every model. As a Tyranid player, there's nothing worse. As a Daemon player, that's just great; Preferred Enemy on top of saving most every wound. More Psychic dice than they know what to do with. And Torrent on Dreadknights besides? Great... Thanks.

I can't even think what second place would be. It would be like a race across America starting at Los Angeles port. When Grey Knights reaches the Jersey shore every other army crossed the California-Nevada border....

I play GK and I hate them too. Really only 1 good unit in the army (NDK) - hence the lack of creativity. My advice to you would be to sit your MC in cover and then you get to strike first against the knight - and save all your denial dice to counter activate force (everything else you can let by). I'd also advise you to bring tervigons. Spamming fearless fodder to tie up the NDK is a great way to beat them. Flyrants can wither them down pretty good too.

Can't even blame him for complaining about the fact you play against one semi-competent GK army you've played against them all. It is just a bad codex. Needs more options.

I voted tau. Mostly because of the whole cover doesn't matter and the way I play orks I can't even get across the field unless its dawn of war deployment. I tend to footslog orks so normally I don't even get in charge range if it is hammer and anvil deployment. So ya with the markerlights they can boost BS and ignore your cover and the overwatch is brutal. So that's why I could fix it by playing speed freaks but I don't like them as much.

Of the few I've fought orks. It's so boring. They just run across the table usually and get gunned down.

Necrons due to that ultra-FnP derpfest. Nothing dies while they zoom around the table vapourising everything you have.

I've voted for Space Marines for 3 major reasons. ATSKNF, Chapter Tactics, and Grav. My god do I hate grav spam. Virtually everything is vulnerable to it and anything that's not can just be shredded by regular firepower instead. ATSKNF is a terrible rule that all but makes marines immune to morale and a few special rules in the game. Really it's better fearless that all marines get for free. Then you get chapter tactics, again for free, that make your troopers much better, and sometimes can transfer over to your other marines/guardsmen/inquisitors/assassins that you took as allies or a formation by just attaching a cheap character to them. Maybe it's because so many people have marine armies that they just don't seem to notice how crazy some of the stuff they get is, but I just find it totally annoying.

 GimbleMuggernaught wrote:
I've voted for Space Marines for 3 major reasons. ATSKNF, Chapter Tactics, and Grav. My god do I hate grav spam. Virtually everything is vulnerable to it and anything that's not can just be shredded by regular firepower instead. ATSKNF is a terrible rule that all but makes marines immune to morale and a few special rules in the game. Really it's better fearless that all marines get for free.

ATSKNF is actually a weaker version of fearless. It 1. lets marines automatically regroup, 2. allows marines to ignore fear and 3. and prevents marines from being "run over" or whatever it's called after fleeing from close combat.

And marines don't get it for free. The base tactical marine is 14 points per model.

Then you get chapter tactics, again for free

Sure. If you want to call 14 points or more per model "free."

that make your troopers much better, and sometimes can transfer over to your other marines/guardsmen/inquisitors/assassins that you took as allies or a formation by just attaching a cheap character to them. I can't think of any instances right off hand where that would happen. Maybe it's because so many people have marine armies that they just don't seem to notice how crazy some of the stuff they get is, but I just find it totally annoying.

What army do you play?

Traditio wrote:
The base tactical marine is 14 points per model.

Which lets you field almost 110 of them in a 1500 point game... Knowing you, you actually do field that many.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

Traditio wrote:
The base tactical marine is 14 points per model.

Which lets you field almost 110 of them in a 1500 point game... Knowing you, you actually do field that many.

How much does an ork boy cost? Imperial guard conscript?

What about necron warriors?

Traditio wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

Traditio wrote:
The base tactical marine is 14 points per model.

Which lets you field almost 110 of them in a 1500 point game... Knowing you, you actually do field that many.

How much does an ork boy cost? Imperial guard conscript?

What about necron warriors?

Does it matter? You play Codex: Tactical Marines. All your dudes wound and glance on 6's automatically.

I voted Space Marines, mainly because of Skyhammer and drop pod armies in general. I HATE drop pod armies; they are usually all kinds of broken and usually eat half my army on the first turn.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I voted Space Marines, mainly because of Skyhammer and drop pod armies in general. I HATE drop pod armies; they are usually all kinds of broken and usually eat half my army on the first turn.

What if there is a space marine army that doesn't use drop pods at all? Or Rhinos... Or Razorbacks?

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I voted Space Marines, mainly because of Skyhammer and drop pod armies in general. I HATE drop pod armies; they are usually all kinds of broken and usually eat half my army on the first turn.

What if there is a space marine army that doesn't use drop pods at all? Or Rhinos... Or Razorbacks?

That's the problem with the poll; really I don't hate ALL space marines (hell, my main army is Dark Angels), just the ones with like nine drop pods and the Skyhammer Annihilation force, especially with Ultramarines and their doctrines letting them reroll everything.

 ZergSmasher wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I voted Space Marines, mainly because of Skyhammer and drop pod armies in general. I HATE drop pod armies; they are usually all kinds of broken and usually eat half my army on the first turn.

What if there is a space marine army that doesn't use drop pods at all? Or Rhinos... Or Razorbacks?

That's the problem with the poll; really I don't hate ALL space marines (hell, my main army is Dark Angels), just the ones with like nine drop pods and the Skyhammer Annihilation force, especially with Ultramarines and their doctrines letting them reroll everything.

I play Ultrasmurfs for the Characters... I don't use the demi company... or the tactics...

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I voted Space Marines, mainly because of Skyhammer and drop pod armies in general. I HATE drop pod armies; they are usually all kinds of broken and usually eat half my army on the first turn.

What if there is a space marine army that doesn't use drop pods at all? Or Rhinos... Or Razorbacks?

That's the problem with the poll; really I don't hate ALL space marines (hell, my main army is Dark Angels), just the ones with like nine drop pods and the Skyhammer Annihilation force, especially with Ultramarines and their doctrines letting them reroll everything.

I play Ultrasmurfs for the Characters... I don't use the demi company... or the tactics...

Honestly, I would rather face a full battle company and their free transports than an all drop pod army. At least I would feel like I could actually kill something before I get blown off the table.

ZergSmasher wrote: I HATE drop pod armies; they are usually all kinds of broken

So says the guy who plays dark angels, tau and khorne demonkin?

But I'm sure your dark angels army has zero bikes, right?

I'm sure that your tau army has no riptides or marker lights, yes?

And you probably don't exploit all of the trickery and assorted nonsense for which the demonkin are so popular, am I right?

 ZergSmasher wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I voted Space Marines, mainly because of Skyhammer and drop pod armies in general. I HATE drop pod armies; they are usually all kinds of broken and usually eat half my army on the first turn.

What if there is a space marine army that doesn't use drop pods at all? Or Rhinos... Or Razorbacks?

That's the problem with the poll; really I don't hate ALL space marines (hell, my main army is Dark Angels), just the ones with like nine drop pods and the Skyhammer Annihilation force, especially with Ultramarines and their doctrines letting them reroll everything.

I play Ultrasmurfs for the Characters... I don't use the demi company... or the tactics...

Honestly, I would rather face a full battle company and their free transports than an all drop pod army. At least I would feel like I could actually kill something before I get blown off the table.

I really like a Stronghold assault scenerio on a Cities of Death board (IE, rhinos take Dangerous terrain tests every turn). Really gives a middle finger to deep striking. I feel like that's what the game lacks, diversity. Y'all just play the same scenerios and complain when you could be using all the other scenerios in all the other books.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Traditio wrote:

ZergSmasher wrote: I HATE drop pod armies; they are usually all kinds of broken

So says the guy who plays dark angels, tau and khorne demonkin?

But I'm sure your dark angels army has zero bikes, right?

I'm sure your army has nothing but Tactical Marines, right?

Tactical_Spam wrote:I'm sure your army has nothing but Tactical Marines, right?

Check your PMs in roughly two minutes.

Traditio wrote:

Tactical_Spam wrote:I'm sure your army has nothing but Tactical Marines, right?

Check your PMs in roughly two minutes.

1500 point list: Space Marines

HQ:

Captain
Storm Bolter
Melta bombs
100 points

Troops
10x Tactical Squads w/ 10 men
140 points each

Total: 1500

Traditio wrote:
But I'm sure your dark angels army has zero bikes, right?

Ravenwing are not as broken as many other things, they have many counters (Hellturkeys, Tau with Markerlights, fast Assault units like Dark Eldar jetbikes, etc.). They are probably the cheesiest thing I run though.

Traditio wrote:
I'm sure that your tau army has no riptides or marker lights, yes?

Actually I do not own any Riptides, and I don't have that many markerlight units.

Traditio wrote:
And you probably don't exploit all of the trickery and assorted nonsense for which the demonkin are so popular, am I right?

I don't even have any Chaos bikes to run the infamous Gorepack formation. I run Khorne's Bloodstorm instead, a formation that is definitely inferior to the Gorepack.

 ZergSmasher wrote:

Traditio wrote:
But I'm sure your dark angels army has zero bikes, right?

Ravenwing are not as broken as many other things, they have many counters (Hellturkeys, Tau with Markerlights, fast Assault units like Dark Eldar jetbikes, etc.). They are probably the cheesiest thing I run though.

See the bolded/underlined for irony lulz.

Traditio wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:

Traditio wrote:
But I'm sure your dark angels army has zero bikes, right?

Ravenwing are not as broken as many other things, they have many counters (Hellturkeys, Tau with Markerlights, fast Assault units like Dark Eldar jetbikes, etc.). They are probably the cheesiest thing I run though.

See the bolded/underlined for irony lulz.

Its not ironic, its coincidental. I play space marines, have a box of Thunderwolves, Stealth suits, Chaos Space Marines, Skitarii Rangers, Tempestus Scions and WHFB dire wolves... Does this make me a cheese monger? Does running the Librarian conclave using telekinesis or pyromancy only make me a cheese monger because I also own Thunderwolves?

Tactical_Spam wrote:Its not ironic, its coincidental. I play space marines, have a box of Thunderwolves, Stealth suits, Chaos Space Marines, Skitarii Rangers, Tempestus Scions and WHFB dire wolves... Does this make me a cheese monger? Does running the Librarian conclave using telekinesis or pyromancy only make me a cheese monger because I also own Thunderwolves?

Don't know. Don't care.

Personally, I wouldn't want to play you regardless of what army you were using.

Traditio wrote:

 GimbleMuggernaught wrote:
I've voted for Space Marines for 3 major reasons. ATSKNF, Chapter Tactics, and Grav. My god do I hate grav spam. Virtually everything is vulnerable to it and anything that's not can just be shredded by regular firepower instead. ATSKNF is a terrible rule that all but makes marines immune to morale and a few special rules in the game. Really it's better fearless that all marines get for free.

ATSKNF is actually a weaker version of fearless. It 1. lets marines automatically regroup, 2. allows marines to ignore fear and 3. and prevents marines from being "run over" or whatever it's called after fleeing from close combat.

And marines don't get it for free. The base tactical marine is 14 points per model.

Then you get chapter tactics, again for free

Sure. If you want to call 14 points or more per model "free."

that make your troopers much better, and sometimes can transfer over to your other marines/guardsmen/inquisitors/assassins that you took as allies or a formation by just attaching a cheap character to them. I can't think of any instances right off hand where that would happen. Maybe it's because so many people have marine armies that they just don't seem to notice how crazy some of the stuff they get is, but I just find it totally annoying.

What army do you play?

ATSKNF is generally better than fearless because of the options it gives you. You can still go to ground, you can flee from a combat that you're ill-suited for. If you do fail a morale it pretty much doesn't matter because you can still act normally the next turn, so unless you run off the table it's not really a huge deal.

Obviously you pay a base points cost for your models. I'm saying that these rules are applied to the models for no additional points cost over a similar model, or at the least very little. If me more serves, a chaos marine is a single point cheaper than a tactical marine but doesn't get any special rules, never mind completely amazing ones like ATSKNF and hit and run.

I play primarily Chaos Marines. You may understand my frustration playing the army that right now is just marines without any of the good toys. I do also play Eldar, but I steer away from the more hanky units like warp spiders and scatterbikes as a general rule (no more than 1 unit of each in a list, and often less), and I almost never use formations. I know exactly how rediculous Eldar can be, but I think that people seem blind to the fact that Marines can be equally dirty in many situations.

But then again, it seems like you're just trying to be a troll, so whatever.

Traditio wrote:

Tactical_Spam wrote:Its not ironic, its coincidental. I play space marines, have a box of Thunderwolves, Stealth suits, Chaos Space Marines, Skitarii Rangers, Tempestus Scions and WHFB dire wolves... Does this make me a cheese monger? Does running the Librarian conclave using telekinesis or pyromancy only make me a cheese monger because I also own Thunderwolves?

Don't know. Don't care.

Personally, I wouldn't want to play you regardless of what army you were using.

Trust me, I am a fun person IRL. I only prod you on Dakka because you complained that bolters are useless against armour

GimbleMuggernaught wrote:ATSKNF is generally better than fearless because of the options it gives you. You can still go to ground, you can flee from a combat that you're ill-suited for. If you do fail a morale it pretty much doesn't matter because you can still act normally the next turn, so unless you run off the table it's not really a huge deal.

Personally, I'd rather have all of my marines have fearless. Fearless units auto-pass pinning checks.

Obviously you pay a base points cost for your models. I'm saying that these rules are applied to the models for no additional points cost over a similar model, or at the least very little. If me more serves, a chaos marine is a single point cheaper than a tactical marine but doesn't get any special rules, never mind completely amazing ones like ATSKNF and hit and run.

Don't most people think that chaos marines are overcosted?

At any rate, as I said before:

Compare a tactical space marine to a necron warrior. Compare a tactical space marine to whatever the points equivalence in tau fire warriors is.

Unless a marine player is playing another marine player, he pretty much inevitably gets swarmed by armies of specialists.

That's annoys me.

I play primarily Chaos Marines. You may understand my frustration playing the army that right now is just marines without any of the good toys.

As a chaos marine player you dislike playing vanilla marines more than Eldar? Tau? Necrons?

Being pinned is annoying, but from what I've seen it rarely comes up against marines. Maybe you see a lot more pinning weapons than I do.

Tactical marines are not the only thing in your army, and virtually everything in the army gets these special rules. Your chapter tactics may not be as powerful as say battle focus, but the combination of chapter tactics, ATSKNF, and combat squads certainly is. If you're using nothing but unsupported tactical marines to fight specialists at their own game, then it's not the units fault.

As for your final point, the answer is a yes. The others are frustrating to be sure, but it somehow just seems more personal to fight marines. Like a slap in the face. You're fighting an army that is extremely similar to yours, but infinitely better for the same or even less cost. The other armies are different enough that it doesn't seem as bad. More like they just have something else going on that happens to be better, rather than an army that seems designed specifically to be better.

Space marines easily. Oh, another mureen player with almost the same min/max setup, how shocking.

 cosmicsoybean wrote:
Space marines easily. Oh, another mureen player with almost the same min/max setup, how shocking.

Define that set up?

 cosmicsoybean wrote:
Space marines easily. Oh, another mureen player with almost the same min/max setup, how shocking.

You do realize that not all of us Marine players run that setup?

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 cosmicsoybean wrote:
Space marines easily. Oh, another mureen player with almost the same min/max setup, how shocking.

Define that set up?

If i had to make a guess he is talking about lots of min squads in free vehicles.

notredameguy10 wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 cosmicsoybean wrote:
Space marines easily. Oh, another mureen player with almost the same min/max setup, how shocking.

Define that set up?

If i had to make a guess he is talking about lots of min squads in free vehicles.

I did that once in a 3000 point doubles game... needless to say, it isn't worth it unless you have a lot of assault cannon razorbacks

Normally i'd say Necrons, but with them i know going in i am going to lose.
Personally i hate to face the tyranids. It just seems like they're just impossible to wipe off the board. Though that could be because i play DE

Have to say that Tau are the most annoying to play against. The just pick up bucket loads of dice at Str7 or Str5 and get re-rolls and ignores cover and intercept and skyfire.

Really boring to play against.

 cosmicsoybean wrote:
Space marines easily. Oh, another mureen player with almost the same min/max setup, how shocking.

What set up?

Traditio wrote:

 GimbleMuggernaught wrote:
I've voted for Space Marines for 3 major reasons. ATSKNF, Chapter Tactics, and Grav. My god do I hate grav spam. Virtually everything is vulnerable to it and anything that's not can just be shredded by regular firepower instead. ATSKNF is a terrible rule that all but makes marines immune to morale and a few special rules in the game. Really it's better fearless that all marines get for free.

ATSKNF is actually a weaker version of fearless. It 1. lets marines automatically regroup, 2. allows marines to ignore fear and 3. and prevents marines from being "run over" or whatever it's called after fleeing from close combat.

And marines don't get it for free. The base tactical marine is 14 points per model.

Then you get chapter tactics, again for free

Sure. If you want to call 14 points or more per model "free."

that make your troopers much better, and sometimes can transfer over to your other marines/guardsmen/inquisitors/assassins that you took as allies or a formation by just attaching a cheap character to them. I can't think of any instances right off hand where that would happen. Maybe it's because so many people have marine armies that they just don't seem to notice how crazy some of the stuff they get is, but I just find it totally annoying.

What army do you play?

14 points is free enough. For 10 points I get a Renegade Veteran with a Krieg Guardsman statline, worse LD on average, and no special rules. I'm paying more for a Guardsman with worse ruies. In an army whose selling point is that thy can bring masses of troops. I would much rather have 10 Space Marines than 14 Renegade Veterans, in a straight measure of unit quality

Harlequins, purely because they don't hit hard enough and then I feel like I'm being a jerk taking out his glass cannon

MIni MIehm wrote:

Traditio wrote:

 GimbleMuggernaught wrote:
I've voted for Space Marines for 3 major reasons. ATSKNF, Chapter Tactics, and Grav. My god do I hate grav spam. Virtually everything is vulnerable to it and anything that's not can just be shredded by regular firepower instead. ATSKNF is a terrible rule that all but makes marines immune to morale and a few special rules in the game. Really it's better fearless that all marines get for free.

ATSKNF is actually a weaker version of fearless. It 1. lets marines automatically regroup, 2. allows marines to ignore fear and 3. and prevents marines from being "run over" or whatever it's called after fleeing from close combat.

And marines don't get it for free. The base tactical marine is 14 points per model.

Then you get chapter tactics, again for free

Sure. If you want to call 14 points or more per model "free."

that make your troopers much better, and sometimes can transfer over to your other marines/guardsmen/inquisitors/assassins that you took as allies or a formation by just attaching a cheap character to them. I can't think of any instances right off hand where that would happen. Maybe it's because so many people have marine armies that they just don't seem to notice how crazy some of the stuff they get is, but I just find it totally annoying.

What army do you play?

14 points is free enough. For 10 points I get a Renegade Veteran with a Krieg Guardsman statline, worse LD on average, and no special rules. I'm paying more for a Guardsman with worse ruies. In an army whose selling point is that thy can bring masses of troops. I would much rather have 10 Space Marines than 14 Renegade Veterans, in a straight measure of unit quality

Don't Renegades essentially come back to life?

 Spyro_Killer wrote:
Harlequins, purely because they don't hit hard enough and then I feel like I'm being a jerk taking out his glass cannon

Have to agree. Short of Allies and being the best general making absolutely no mistakes, Harlequins are super underwhelming. I love their look but I feel like they die to a stiff breeze and do almost no damage, unless they get in to CC and hit first.

Tau. Most boring army. Usually also most boring players. No strategy, ignores everything. Players usually want a lot of cover, since with tau it only benefits them. Shut that down real quick. Oh you're tau? So this little tree in the center, aaand that's it.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Tau. Most boring army. Usually also most boring players. No strategy, ignores everything. Players usually want a lot of cover, since with tau it only benefits them. Shut that down real quick. Oh you're tau? So this little tree in the center, aaand that's it.

That would be the world's second most boring map to play on. (the most boring one being, remove the tree )

You would actually be better off doing the reverse and going ultra-urban: pack the table in so tight with terrain that nothing bigger than a Crisis suit can move No riptides, no stormsurges, no ghostkeels! And, ignore cover means nothing if there's no LoS because your longest firing lanes are less than 18".

They'll shoot with those missiles that don't need LOS.

I just realised that the Tau have no Barrage weapons, too, or none that I've heard of, interesting.

 Quickjager wrote:

MIni MIehm wrote:

Traditio wrote:

 GimbleMuggernaught wrote:
I've voted for Space Marines for 3 major reasons. ATSKNF, Chapter Tactics, and Grav. My god do I hate grav spam. Virtually everything is vulnerable to it and anything that's not can just be shredded by regular firepower instead. ATSKNF is a terrible rule that all but makes marines immune to morale and a few special rules in the game. Really it's better fearless that all marines get for free.

ATSKNF is actually a weaker version of fearless. It 1. lets marines automatically regroup, 2. allows marines to ignore fear and 3. and prevents marines from being "run over" or whatever it's called after fleeing from close combat.

And marines don't get it for free. The base tactical marine is 14 points per model.

Then you get chapter tactics, again for free

Sure. If you want to call 14 points or more per model "free."

that make your troopers much better, and sometimes can transfer over to your other marines/guardsmen/inquisitors/assassins that you took as allies or a formation by just attaching a cheap character to them. I can't think of any instances right off hand where that would happen. Maybe it's because so many people have marine armies that they just don't seem to notice how crazy some of the stuff they get is, but I just find it totally annoying.

What army do you play?

14 points is free enough. For 10 points I get a Renegade Veteran with a Krieg Guardsman statline, worse LD on average, and no special rules. I'm paying more for a Guardsman with worse ruies. In an army whose selling point is that thy can bring masses of troops. I would much rather have 10 Space Marines than 14 Renegade Veterans, in a straight measure of unit quality

Don't Renegades essentially come back to life?

Only if you take a detachment that is basically only troop choices (and the respawning troops don't do any damage or have ObSec)

So what is it called when you start an army that you say you hate playing against?

I don't like how space marines look and in my local GW they're poular

 Talys wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Tau. Most boring army. Usually also most boring players. No strategy, ignores everything. Players usually want a lot of cover, since with tau it only benefits them. Shut that down real quick. Oh you're tau? So this little tree in the center, aaand that's it.

That would be the world's second most boring map to play on. (the most boring one being, remove the tree )

You would actually be better off doing the reverse and going ultra-urban: pack the table in so tight with terrain that nothing bigger than a Crisis suit can move No riptides, no stormsurges, no ghostkeels! And, ignore cover means nothing if there's no LoS because your longest firing lanes are less than 18".

I'm one of those Tau who can play well on either. Though if I could I would take the empty field please.

I don't mind most armies, however there are certain units that just are stressful.

Eldar warp spiders.
Wraiths with re animation.
DA bikes with re-rollable jink.

Any army that can make itself bigger than the agreed point limit. I have a friend that plays daemons. At the start of the game he's bringing in another 2 yo 3 units. Sometimes a daemon prince. And what makes it worse is I don't list tailor. I bring a list and then find out who I'm playing. But when he starts summoning he can whichever unit he needs to handle a task.

Did somebody just say how awesome Combat Squads was?

 Quickjager wrote:

MIni MIehm wrote:

Traditio wrote:

 GimbleMuggernaught wrote:
I've voted for Space Marines for 3 major reasons. ATSKNF, Chapter Tactics, and Grav. My god do I hate grav spam. Virtually everything is vulnerable to it and anything that's not can just be shredded by regular firepower instead. ATSKNF is a terrible rule that all but makes marines immune to morale and a few special rules in the game. Really it's better fearless that all marines get for free.

ATSKNF is actually a weaker version of fearless. It 1. lets marines automatically regroup, 2. allows marines to ignore fear and 3. and prevents marines from being "run over" or whatever it's called after fleeing from close combat.

And marines don't get it for free. The base tactical marine is 14 points per model.

Then you get chapter tactics, again for free

Sure. If you want to call 14 points or more per model "free."

that make your troopers much better, and sometimes can transfer over to your other marines/guardsmen/inquisitors/assassins that you took as allies or a formation by just attaching a cheap character to them. I can't think of any instances right off hand where that would happen. Maybe it's because so many people have marine armies that they just don't seem to notice how crazy some of the stuff they get is, but I just find it totally annoying.

What army do you play?

14 points is free enough. For 10 points I get a Renegade Veteran with a Krieg Guardsman statline, worse LD on average, and no special rules. I'm paying more for a Guardsman with worse ruies. In an army whose selling point is that thy can bring masses of troops. I would much rather have 10 Space Marines than 14 Renegade Veterans, in a straight measure of unit quality

Don't Renegades essentially come back to life?

Only if I take a specific detatchment, with a specific warlord (who is still super squishy) with a troop tax of at least 90 models, and probably more like 180 models.

I run a Purge detatchment with an Ordnance Tyrant as my Warlord, giving me artillery in all of my slots. I get 6 Elites, 2 of which are mandatory, 8 troops, 4 HS, and no FA. I usually fill my elites slots with Medusas and Earthshaker carriages, and then mix my troops between quad launchers and infantry platoons, which are WS/BS2 with a human statline and no armor save, unless I spend more points to bring them up to Guardsman stats. This army works fairly well in maelstrom games by lmiting movement (any area under one of my blast templates becomes dangerous terrain for the turn) and killing things with my high Str low AP artillery pieces in my elites slots. Combined with 55 point Chimeras, my army has a decent mix of mobility and firepower. It's just really bad if things turn sideways and I either lose my transports early, or my artillery can't perform to pin the enemy in place long enough for me to do my thing.

Being able to take a unit of CSMs, for about 10 points each plus options, as an elites choice would be a big boost to my army, and go a long way towards giving me some more staying power.

Also, CSMs should only be about 10 points as currently written. The Marine statline isn't worth 13.

 Bobthehero wrote:
They'll shoot with those missiles that don't need LOS.

I just realised that the Tau have no Barrage weapons, too, or none that I've heard of, interesting.

We have one, it's 18" of a large blast bolter shot, so it's hardly a highlight.

And "those missiles that don't need LOS" are mere S5Ap5 guns mounted as secondary weapons on heavy platforms (broadside, riptides, tanks) so if that's all they shoot, you are in a good spot.

 Lolcanoe wrote:
So what is it called when you start an army that you say you hate playing against?

I dunno, guess I'll find out. Just picked up a few kits of Eldar and the codex. Rip me.

This is probably a non valid point, but it's usually the player I'm up against rather than the army they field that bothers me. I can have an enjoyable game against a powerful list even if I get annihilated, but likewise can dislike playing a game even when I win based on how the persons attitude is who I'm up against.
For the record I voted Eldar.

Huron black heart wrote:
This is probably a non valid point, but it's usually the player I'm up against rather than the army they field that bothers me. I can have an enjoyable game against a powerful list even if I get annihilated, but likewise can dislike playing a game even when I win based on how the persons attitude is who I'm up against.
For the record I voted Eldar.

I find this is the case more than anything. I have had great games playing against good people where I lose every model. I've also won games that make me wonder why the heck I even participate in this hobby (opponent bitching because I take an early lead with an inferior army that he ends up beating the pants off of).

Tau I can handle, especially on dense boards (which I usually play on). Tau also are not exceptionally strong as long as you don't spam riptides, ghostkeels and that kind of stuff.
Necrons are a pain, but I don't mind them because their competitive lists are pretty fluffy. Necrons are supposed to be terrifying and near impossible to kill.
Eldar are easily the most annoying and OP, so I voted for them. Altough even with Eldar it is possible to make fun lists that are not at all OP.
In the end, it comes down to certain lists and unit combinations I really don't like, rather than certain armies. And Eldar have the most of those.

I have a list of armies I dont like to play, I still will play the game regardless of it, but going into a game already thinking you have lost kills my mood.
1) Dark Eldar poison shots against my ravenwing
2)Tau with removing cover saves against my ravenwing
3) Nurgle Daemons with summoning and insane cover saves,
4) full drop pod armies,

 conker249 wrote:
I have a list of armies I dont like to play, I still will play the game regardless of it, but going into a game already thinking you have lost kills my mood.
1) Dark Eldar poison shots against my ravenwing
2)Tau with removing cover saves against my ravenwing
3) Nurgle Daemons with summoning and insane cover saves,
4) full drop pod armies,

Ignores Cover is also the bane of my existence when I play RW but don't you think it's a bit hypocritical to complain about others getting cover saves? I do hate summoning armies too so I have to agree on that part.

I am used to nurgle Great unclean ones having cover save, re-rolll cover save, then FnP, then re-roll FnP, and then It will not die. with all the proper spells rolled. I feel helpless to cause any damage at all. Then a new one appears out of nowhere, then another in turn 4, and so on.

 Lolcanoe wrote:
So what is it called when you start an army that you say you hate playing against?

Fighting fire with fire.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mulletdude wrote:

Huron black heart wrote:
This is probably a non valid point, but it's usually the player I'm up against rather than the army they field that bothers me. I can have an enjoyable game against a powerful list even if I get annihilated, but likewise can dislike playing a game even when I win based on how the persons attitude is who I'm up against.
For the record I voted Eldar.

I find this is the case more than anything. I have had great games playing against good people where I lose every model. I've also won games that make me wonder why the heck I even participate in this hobby (opponent bitching because I take an early lead with an inferior army that he ends up beating the pants off of).

The least fun game I've ever played was against Dark Eldar. I won, but it was absolute misery because the guy I was up against complained about every little thing I did. At one point, I forgot that a Ghost Ark had jinked in the previous turn and didn't snap fire the weapons. He yelled so lout that I thought he was going to have a stroke! Luckily, he was from out of town, so I never had to play him again.

I like interacting with my opponent... so I don't like armies that don't allow for that interaction. Examples are Leaf-Blower IG and Gunline Tau.

I think IG are porbsbly the farthest down on the list of "non interactive" armies in the game at this point....you can usually do pretty much anything to them...

 Chapter Master Angelos wrote:
I severely dislike Necrons. They don't die, it gets boring to fight. And the local necron players don't make the experience any more fun. Ones favorite argument was in a 4k point team game "No D weapons cus they ignore re-animation" which yes is a player issue not an army one but no fun just the same.

I would never play against Necrons unless I had D weapons (albeit in moderation and not in cheesetastic amounts). Needless to say, I rarely got in a game with the players of that faction in my local meta.


The reasons I voted for the 'Crons are pretty much the same as yours.

Why do Tau and Eldar have over 100 votes each? Are they seriously Overpowered or something?

 KaptinBadrukk wrote:
Why do Tau and Eldar have over 100 votes each? Are they seriously Overpowered or something?

Noooo. Not from the outset. But when you face 40 Windrider Jetbikes with scatterlasers and its game over in turn two, you'll think differently.

 KaptinBadrukk wrote:
Why do Tau and Eldar have over 100 votes each? Are they seriously Overpowered or something?

They absolutely can be, Eldar pretty much are almost no matter what you do with them . Necrons are high up there too for the same reasons

wuestenfux wrote:

 KaptinBadrukk wrote:
Why do Tau and Eldar have over 100 votes each? Are they seriously Overpowered or something?

Noooo. Not from the outset. But when you face 40 Windrider Jetbikes with scatterlasers and its game over in turn two, you'll think differently.

Vaktathi wrote:

 KaptinBadrukk wrote:
Why do Tau and Eldar have over 100 votes each? Are they seriously Overpowered or something?

They absolutely can be, Eldar pretty much are almost no matter what you do with them . Necrons are high up there too for the same reasons

Very interesting.

Tau mess me up too bad.

Necrons... and I haven't played any 40k since last edition (or necrons last edition for that matter) but that was fairly annoying...

Imperial guard, 4 players at my flgs, one list common between them all, they all run a pask punisher gun line using as many tanks as possible, psykers and tech priests to support them and as little infantry as possible. They also INSIST upon kill points only games and uniformly refuse to play my daemons because of their reliance on invulns.

Tau more than Eldar? Really?

Ouroboros0977 wrote:
Imperial guard, 4 players at my flgs, one list common between them all, they all run a pask punisher gun line using as many tanks as possible, psykers and tech priests to support them and as little infantry as possible. They also INSIST upon kill points only games and uniformly refuse to play my daemons because of their reliance on invulns.

Begin a quest to find a new store, my friend.

 krodarklorr wrote:
Mine, personally, is Eldar. Their book is just multiple levels of annoying/broken, and even casual games against them usually end up ridiculous.

That's rich, coming from a Necron player...

I'm a firm believer that you can tone Eldar down significantly to provide good games, unfortunately they can attract total muppets who only spam the most powerful stuff even in non competitive games, and as an Eldar player myself, thats inexcusable .

Tau being so high on the list doesn't surprise me. Their playstyle encourages just sitting back in an intercepting, overwatching, ignoring cover, ignoring LOS high strength, low AP gun lines, and thats a very boring opponent. That said I really like the new breacher units that allow Tau to get up in someone's grill and clear out cover, basically anything that can promote movement (that isn't running away JSJ style) is good in my books.

Kinda surprised that Necrons aren't over 100+ votes if only because of the legacy of annoyance the decurion inflicted, saying that If I play against a non decurion Necron player, I'd probably enjoy the match.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
Mine, personally, is Eldar. Their book is just multiple levels of annoying/broken, and even casual games against them usually end up ridiculous.

That's rich, coming from a Necron player...

Oh, I'm sure it is. But people's arguments for Necrons are not that their straight up OP, but that they're un-fun and boring to play against. You can't really argue that Necrons are more OP than Eldar, or even on the same level as some of the cheesemonger lists.

Maybe it's just that I'm a necron player and I see the gaping holes, or maybe it's because I'm an older necron player and I don't have the 'in' units... but what do necrons have?
Necrons aren't the army that breaks all the rules anymore (3rd edition book).
We get a second save, big deal. See all the other armies that have Feel No Pain... tricks can take theirs all the way to a 2+++ in cases, ours is limited to 4+ (though almost army wide)
Our basic weapon has a chance to damage anything... even if it is only a small small chance.
Wraiths are stupid good. Should have been nerfed because they were stupid good in the last book too, but if you shoot the Spyder, the whole detachment falls apart.
Our ground vehicles are AV 13 until they are on the way out. But they are EXPENSIVE for what they do.
Most of our weapons are limited to 24 inches. Most of our units hit like a foam pool noodle in combat, and most of our army is extremely limited as to mobility (and our transports are EXPENSIVE).
If we go for the decurion, we lose objective secured.
I'm not saying that Necrons aren't good... we are. But all you need to do to beat us is play the mission.

 Anpu-adom wrote:
Maybe it's just that I'm a necron player and I see the gaping holes, or maybe it's because I'm an older necron player and I don't have the 'in' units... but what do necrons have?
We get a second save, big deal. No different than other armies that have Feel No Pain.
Our basic weapon has a chance to damage anything... even if it is only a small small chance.
Wraiths are stupid good. Should have been nerfed because they were stupid good in the last book too, but if you shoot the Spyder, the whole detachment falls apart.
Most of our weapons are limited to 24 inches. Most of our units hit like a foam pool noodle in combat, and most of our army is extremely limited as to mobility (and our transports are EXPENSIVE).
If we go for the decurion, we lose objective secured.
I'm not saying that Necrons aren't good... we are. But all you need to do to beat us is play the mission.

Well, lets see here.

"We get a second save, big deal. No different than other armies that have Feel No Pain." Yes, that can be buffed to a 4+, as well as has ways to be rerolled (Rez Orbs/Reclamation Legion) That's better than most armies that have FNP.

"Our basic weapon has a chance to damage anything... even if it is only a small small chance." Well, that is actually a pretty big deal. Sure, it's a small chance, but against vehicles, we have the Weight of fire for it to hardly matter.

"Wraiths are stupid good. Should have been nerfed because they were stupid good in the last book too, but if you shoot the Spyder, the whole detachment falls apart." Wraiths are fine, I think, but people haven't past them yet. They're a strong unit, yes. Not that strong.

"Most of our weapons are limited to 24 inches. Most of our units hit like a foam pool noodle in combat, and most of our army is extremely limited as to mobility (and our transports are EXPENSIVE)." This one I disagree with the most. Yes, our guns are limited to 24" range most of the time. However, we have the durability to make it within range easily. Also, all of our CC units are good, and we have access to Relentless on anything, so between double tapping and charging, I'm not sure where the Foam Noodle comes into place. Also, mobility? Tomb Blades are good, Ghost Arks are good, monoliths can help reposition units, We have a Flying Transport that can teleport guys onto the board, as well as VOD/Obyron for Deep Striking across the board. Then take into account the amount of units that can Deep Strike (Flayed Ones, Deathmarks, Destroyers, Praetorians, Monoliths, VOD characters), and the fact that Destroyers are durable and can move on average 13" a turn, then also widespread Move Through Cover....Necrons are very mobile.

Now, my point, and I do have one, is that I can definitely see why people would hate playing against Necrons. However, as a Necron player myself, I also see that they're not as ridiculous OP as problem units from other codexes, such as Eldar and Tau.

Hrm, Wraiths are stupid good. That fact that theyre almost never absent in top tournament lists is oretty proof positive of that. They may not be able to outkill a TWC deathstar, but they're cheaper, more resilient, unhindered by terrain, and still very killy.

Even without the Canoptek Harvest formation and the benefit of RP, a unit of 6 requires more BS4 S10 shots to kill than a Warhound Titan, or 432 Lasgun shots to kill. They have absurd and quite simply unjustifiable resiliency against both quantity and quality of fire, on top on extreme speed and being Fearless.

Necrons as a whole have this issue, but Wraiths exemplify it most, and the army is every bit as ridiculous as Tau and Eldar.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Hrm, Wraiths are stupid good. That fact that theyre almost never absent in top tournament lists is oretty proof positive of that. They may not be able to outkill a TWC deathstar, but they're cheaper, more resilient, unhindered by terrain, and still very killy.

Even without the Canoptek Harvest formation and the benefit of RP, a unit of 6 requires more BS4 S10 shots to kill than a Warhound Titan, or 432 Lasgun shots to kill. They have absurd and quite simply unjustifiable resiliency against both quantity and quality of fire, on top on extreme speed and being Fearless.

Necrons as a whole have this issue, but Wraiths exemplify it most, and the army is every bit as ridiculous as Tau and Eldar.

You mean the army even outside of Wraiths? What else is considered ridiculous? I know that my gaming group has labeled Necrons "The Kings of Casual" for a reason, but when you start bring out cheese units, Necrons slowly start falling behind.

It comes down to this:
Most people like removing their enemies models and don't like it when their models get removed.
Eldar and Necrons are hard to kill (for different reasons)
People don't like Eldar and Tau because they are brutally effective at shooting.
Space Marines aren't on top (in spite of keeping Objective Secured and being able to field 15+ OS Units in their Gladius Strike Force) because a 5 man squad of marines isn't all that tough to kill and doesn't slaughter everything.
It's not about win-loss ratios or even power. It is about removing models.

Its mostly the formation/detachment bonuses (as straight CAD's are relatively unheard of) that turn solid units into absurd units. But theres a lot of stuff about the army as a whole thats build very well to the core rules to take advantage of things that make almost everything minimize the potential for failure. Thins like flyer transports that dont suffer the downsides of being a flyer transport (and are cheap to boot), ground transports that allow unparallled flexibility with incredible resiliency at a relatively low cost for what they offer, etc.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Its mostly the formation/detachment bonuses (as straight CAD's are relatively unheard of) that turn solid units into absurd units. But theres a lot of stuff about the army as a whole thats build very well to the core rules to take advantage of things that make almost everything minimize the potential for failure. Thins like flyer transports that dont suffer the downsides of being a flyer transport (and are cheap to boot), ground transports that allow unparallled flexibility with incredible resiliency at a relatively low cost for what they offer, etc.

The Flyers are appropriately costed now, at least in my opinion. And sure, the Ghosk Ark is really good, but it not without it's downsides.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Anpu-adom wrote:
It comes down to this:
Most people like removing their enemies models and don't like it when their models get removed.
Eldar and Necrons are hard to kill (for different reasons)
People don't like Eldar and Tau because they are brutally effective at shooting.
Space Marines aren't on top (in spite of keeping Objective Secured and being able to field 15+ OS Units in their Gladius Strike Force) because a 5 man squad of marines isn't all that tough to kill and doesn't slaughter everything.
It's not about win-loss ratios or even power. It is about removing models.

Well sure, but judging by the poll, people still hate facing Eldar/Tau more.

For a dedicated transport, are there really any downsides on the Ghost Ark? Its more points than a Rhino, sure, but can put out an insane amount of hurt at different targets, benefit from Jink, enhanced rear armor (making it immune to S4 glances and requiring double the average numbet of krak grenades to kill vs most tanks in the game), gets AV13 shields to block most HP stripping spam weapons, allows passengers to assault out and shoot out without hindrance, with the shields and Jink to protect from damage results), and more HP's than anything in the game but Land Raiders and the Monolith short of a superheavy. Its not Wraithknight broken, but theres not much downside to it.

The Night Scythe remains probably by far the most cost effective and safest flyer transport in the game I believe. The Valkyrie has more front and side armor (but weaker rear armor if I'm not mistaken), but doesnt get the protection for passengers that the Scythe does nor anything near the same Firepower, while the Vendetta doesnt have as much transport capacity and costs way more, and the Stormraven is about 2x the cost of a Scythe, and none can be taken as dedicated transports.

 Vaktathi wrote:
For a dedicated transport, are there really any downsides on the Ghost Ark? Its more than a Rhino, but can out out an insane amount of hurt, benefit from Jink, enhanced rear armor (making it immune to S4 glances and requiring double the average numbet of krak grenades to kill vs most tanks in the game), gets AV13 shields to block most HP stripping spam weapons, allows passengers to assault out and shoot out without hindrance, with the shields and Jink to protect from damage results), and more HP's than anything in the game but Land Raiders and the Monolith short of a superheavy. Its not Wraithknight broken, but theres not much downside to it.

The Night Scythe remains probably by far the most cost effective and safest flyer transport in the game I believe. The Valkyrie has more front and side armor (but weaker rear armor if I'm not mistaken), but doesnt get the protection for passengers that the Scythe does nor anything near the same Firepower, while the Vendetta doesnt have as much transport capacity and costs way more, and the Stormraven is about 2x the cost of a Scythe, and none can be taken as dedicated transports.

the Ghost Ark is good, yes. However, in every game I've played with it, it typically gives up first blood, or is immobilized due to a pen. The Open-topped is nice for the passengers, but it also means it goes boom a lot easier. I typically run 1-2 when I do, and they always do well for about a turn or 2 at most. Then my guys are footslogging, since their Ark exploded.

Well yeah, the Invasion Beam is nice, and AV11 all around with Living Metal is nice. But it's weapon isn't the best on a flier. In fact, I'd rather have a Twin-linked Multimelta or 3 Twin-linked Lascannons. And there are some minor things you have to remember. It's not an assault transport, and If the passengers move more than 24" and disembark, they have to snap-fire that turn. It also has no hover option, and in numerous games I'd suffer a Weapon Destroyed result, and therefor it's essentially dead as it has no further purpose.

I'm not disagreeing that they aren't good. I'm just saying they're not the end-all-be-all of Transports.

OK, what is the best Transport? Because, my IG would love to trade their Chimeras for Ghost Arks.

 Vaktathi wrote:
For a dedicated transport, are there really any downsides on the Ghost Ark? Its more points than a Rhino, sure, but can put out an insane amount of hurt at different targets, benefit from Jink, enhanced rear armor (making it immune to S4 glances and requiring double the average numbet of krak grenades to kill vs most tanks in the game), gets AV13 shields to block most HP stripping spam weapons, allows passengers to assault out and shoot out without hindrance, with the shields and Jink to protect from damage results), and more HP's than anything in the game but Land Raiders and the Monolith short of a superheavy. Its not Wraithknight broken, but theres not much downside to it.

The Night Scythe remains probably by far the most cost effective and safest flyer transport in the game I believe. The Valkyrie has more front and side armor (but weaker rear armor if I'm not mistaken), but doesnt get the protection for passengers that the Scythe does nor anything near the same Firepower, while the Vendetta doesnt have as much transport capacity and costs way more, and the Stormraven is about 2x the cost of a Scythe, and none can be taken as dedicated transports.

Agreed. Aside from the Drop Pod, the GA is probably my favorite transport. The Night Scythe is probably only rivaled by the Eldar fliers.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
OK, what is the best Transport? Because, my IG would love to trade their Chimeras for Ghost Arks.

My bet would be the Wave Serpent. Much more durable that a Ghost Ark (Ala not Open-topped, Serpent Shield, has access to an invuln), has better firepower, and is much faster. Can also carry more than just Warriors.

Im not sure one could say the Wave Serpent has better firepower or resiliency. It gets the shield and isnt open topped, but has 1 less HP and doesnt get AV13 shields, and both get 4+ Jink and better rear armor that means its not auto-killed in CC, while the Ghost Ark can put out up to 20 S4 Gauss shots at two different targets vs the Wave Serpents one-use shield and turret + underslung catapult/cannon. The Ghost Ark is cheaper and doesnt have to buy any upgrades to boot while a Wave Serpent usually ends up ~140pts+ vs the Ghost Arks 105.

The big thing is that the WS is Fast, and can be bought for a wider array of infantry. Those are its major advantages.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Im not sure one could say the Wave Serpent has better firepower or resiliency. It gets the shield and isnt open topped, but has 1 less HP and doesnt get AV13 shields, and both get 4+ Jink and better rear armor that means its not auto-killed in CC, while the Ghost Ark can put out up to 20 S4 Gauss shots at two different targets vs the Wave Serpents one-use shield and turret + underslung catapult/cannon. The Ghost Ark is cheaper and doesnt have to buy any upgrades to boot while a Wave Serpent usually ends up ~140pts+ vs the Ghost Arks 105.

The big thing is that the WS is Fast, and can be bought for a wider array of infantry. Those are its major advantages.

Most of the time you're not going to be able to use both sides, so that's hardly worth it. And yeah, it doesn't get AV13, but the Ghost Ark only has that until it suffers a pen, and then it becomes a Rhino. The Wave Serpent will take a pen, can have a 5++ against it if it doesn't get cover, and then knocks that pen down to a glance. And then as far as the Firepower is concerned, lets say it takes a Brightlance. Well, that's a Brightlance. Good range, Lance, AP2, something I'd kill for as Necrons. And then it has some S6 Bladestorm to add in for light armor and Infantry. ghost Ark gets 10 Gauss Shots, which are Bolters against Infantry, and can glance on 6s. Sure, it is open-topped, so the guys inside can fire for a lot of Gauss shots. It is nice, but Open-topped is a double edged sword, as we all know.

So, they both have their advantages, and both are good transports. It just depends on the circumstances as to which one is better.

I also think Tau are the most annoying to play against.

They just sit there and shoot at you and are very non-interactive of an army.

Eldar and Necrons also make sense, as they are strong codex's.

Back in 5th ed Guard were the bane of my existence. Now in 7th I'd have to say Eldar/Tau are the most annoying/broken.

Ouroboros0977 wrote:
Imperial guard, 4 players at my flgs, one list common between them all, they all run a pask punisher gun line using as many tanks as possible, psykers and tech priests to support them and as little infantry as possible. They also INSIST upon kill points only games and uniformly refuse to play my daemons because of their reliance on invulns.

I wouldn't count it as a loss in my life.

Is that list good or bad for kill points? My friend has an IG list that's similar and usually gets destroyed by me easily. Granted I do play Tau.

He won't even play me anymore even with his Imperial Knights.

To be honest one thing that surprised me was how FAST the meta changed to be able to handle Imperial Knights.

You hardly hear about them anymore.

All it took was a fairly-priced GC with a pair of ranged S(D) guns...

 Gamgee wrote:
Is that list good or bad for kill points? My friend has an IG list that's similar and usually gets destroyed by me easily. Granted I do play Tau.

He won't even play me anymore even with his Imperial Knights.

That should probably be an indication that something is very broken...

 Quickjager wrote:
To be honest one thing that surprised me was how FAST the meta changed to be able to handle Imperial Knights.

You hardly hear about them anymore.

Most events don't allow you to take lots of them, that's a big (probably the biggest) reason why. Another reason is that the firepower available to a couple of armies can knock them out of contention relatively easily, even if the Knights curbstomp everything else.

Ah I've destroyed that list with just Firewarriors, crisis teams, and pathfinders at one point a very inefficient list. I even had a few Railgun Broadsides (which are terribad one of our worst units).

Hell one time I fought it I charged my Riptide up center field and let it be shot without using nova reactor on shields and still won that game despite letting him have the Riptide. I even "forgot" my Riptide had an invuln save all game too. I won by victory points that time. I realized when I won against this list with Kroot and terribly inefficient builds there was nothing he could do to beat me so ever since then I just destroy him. Now he wont even try and play me. I mean if he couldn't beat my worst lists (6e Tau) whats hope does he have? The Tyranids player still challenges me, but always tries to win the objective point game since his army can't compete.

I even won a game with no markerlights once by the skin of my teeth. Tyranid player took initiative and mangaed to take my two Pathfinder teams out. Farsight managed to get me a few more points of kills (it was a kill point game way back when I was just starting 40k and I won by like 3 points. My third game I played too). By the end though all I had left was Farsight and I think half a squad of firewarriors, and one Broadside. My Riptide was destroyed that game too. Good times. He had a flying Hive Tyrant and a ground one too so it wasn't no slouch of an army.

The last time I lost 40k was about two years ago. My one friend played an ork list with help from the Nids player and this was his first game playing with a lot of help from the Nids player. This was my second game and first against orks. It was a low points game it I didn't register he was taking so much heavy armored orks and I was taking the machien gun of death build. Ethereal + Cadre Fireblade Firewarrior spam list. I almost won through sheer weight of fire but he had one squad left with heavy armor who got in my lines and his warboss. It was a total massacre. Fun times though and I'll never make that mistake again. Hahah.

Loyalist Space Marines (whatever the codex)

They complained about my Sisters or Oldcron having 3+ armour.

They moan about their ICs *almost* losing in assault to mine.

They get the hump if Genestealers kill D3vs or Tac marines in Assault...even if they kill most of the 'stealers and keep them busy for three or four turns.

 Souleater wrote:
Loyalist Space Marines (whatever the codex)

They complained about my Sisters or Oldcron having 3+ armour.

They moan about their ICs *almost* losing in assault to mine.

They get the hump if Genestealers kill D3vs or Tac marines in Assault...even if they kill most of the 'stealers and keep them busy for three or four turns.

Ah yes, I remember with my 5th edition codex, all the Smashfether players would complain that my MSS made him possibly attack himself. Oh no! My only defense in CC is actually kind of good against your cheesy character! Suck it up.

 krodarklorr wrote:


Ah yes, I remember with my 5th edition codex, all the Smashfether players would complain that my MSS made him possibly attack himself. Oh no! My only defense in CC is actually kind of good against your cheesy character! Suck it up.

Oh no you don't, MSS was evil incarnate and I praise almighty GeeDubs for removing them from the game and would gladly play against a thousand decurions than play against that again

*Shivers

 Torus wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:


Ah yes, I remember with my 5th edition codex, all the Smashfether players would complain that my MSS made him possibly attack himself. Oh no! My only defense in CC is actually kind of good against your cheesy character! Suck it up.

Oh no you don't, MSS was evil incarnate and I praise almighty GeeDubs for removing them from the game and would gladly play against a thousand decurions than play against that again

*Shivers

Well, considering our Overlords are now actually kind of scary, even without MSS, I'm fine with it. But in the old Codex? Our super awesome leaders had the same fighting capability as a Tac Marine. So yeah, we needed them.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Souleater wrote:
Loyalist Space Marines (whatever the codex)

They complained about my Sisters or Oldcron having 3+ armour.

They moan about their ICs *almost* losing in assault to mine.

They get the hump if Genestealers kill D3vs or Tac marines in Assault...even if they kill most of the 'stealers and keep them busy for three or four turns.

Ah yes, I remember with my 5th edition codex, all the Smashfether players would complain that my MSS made him possibly attack himself. Oh no! My only defense in CC is actually kind of good against your cheesy character! Suck it up.

the only defense aside from being able to sport a 2+/3++sv on T5 with RP and multiple S7 AP1 Warscythe attacks

They werent so bad off that MSS was necessary for them to function, and went wayyy too far the opposite way, far too often guaranteeing a one sided curbstomping when a 3d6 LD roll would fail on average on even the highest LD characters.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Souleater wrote:
Loyalist Space Marines (whatever the codex)

They complained about my Sisters or Oldcron having 3+ armour.

They moan about their ICs *almost* losing in assault to mine.

They get the hump if Genestealers kill D3vs or Tac marines in Assault...even if they kill most of the 'stealers and keep them busy for three or four turns.

Ah yes, I remember with my 5th edition codex, all the Smashfether players would complain that my MSS made him possibly attack himself. Oh no! My only defense in CC is actually kind of good against your cheesy character! Suck it up.

the only defense aside from being able to sport a 2+/3++sv on T5 with RP and multiple S7 AP1 Warscythe attacks

They werent so bad off that MSS was necessary for them to function, and went wayyy too far the opposite way, far too often guaranteeing a one sided curbstomping when a 3d6 LD roll would fail on average on even the highest LD characters.

Well, RP wasn't as good back then, so against a decent CC character, Overlords would have a 3++. Which is good, sure. But then 3 attacks at I2 with WS4 isn't impressive for a ~200 point character.

Sure RP wasnt what it is now, but it was definitley something, and T5 with great saves made them dramatically tougher than most 200pt equivalents aside from something like Lysander (who I think is 230...and strikes at I1), particularly once 6th hit about six months later and anything that could break the 2+ was hitting at I1 and that I2 Warscythe got to strike first.

Or even worse...the chariot where you got to choose either the chariot or the character to take the hit...

 Vaktathi wrote:
Sure RP wasnt what it is now, but it was definitley something, and T5 with great saves made them dramatically tougher than most 200pt equivalents aside from something like Lysander (who I think is 230...and strikes at I1), particularly once 6th hit about six months later and anything that could break the 2+ was hitting at I1 and that I2 Warscythe got to strike first.

Or even worse...the chariot where you got to choose either the chariot or the character to take the hit...

I think in 6th the Chariot took the hit from shooting, and in melee the attacker got to decide. It wasn't until 7th when Chariots became ridiculous.

I still loved my Overlord, but without MSS, he would typically fail to do much against another CC character most of the time. Heck, my Overlord failed to do much damage against Tac marines most of the time.

I think you're right in on the allocation bit being 7th, its increasingly a haze to me

That said, Necron Lords really were never intended to go toe to toe with the beastliest combat characters around, but to be a hard fist supporting (and protected by) something else, which they did very well. MSS wasnt needed to be successful in that role, particularly on a 3d6 Ld test. If it really were, it would have just been included in the Lord's inherent wargear/special rules.

Tau, 100% Tau... oh look a gun line, oh look another gun line... will I be surprised and see transports and croot outflanking and the mobile stuff in their codex... nope another gun line every time I see tau it is either a farsight bomb backed by 1-3 riptides, 2-3 units of broadsides spewing gak-tons of missiles, and a few fire warrior squads all augmented by 3 units of pathfinders. there might be an ethereal to grant buffs too. I like variety... I own tau and love playing them mobile sure I win less that way but I enjoy the match and get actual movement and playing for objectives.

 G00fySmiley wrote:
Tau, 100% Tau... oh look a gun line, oh look another gun line... will I be surprised and see transports and croot outflanking and the mobile stuff in their codex... nope another gun line every time I see tau it is either a farsight bomb backed by 1-3 riptides, 2-3 units of broadsides spewing gak-tons of missiles, and a few fire warrior squads all augmented by 3 units of pathfinders. there might be an ethereal to grant buffs too. I like variety... I own tau and love playing them mobile sure I win less that way but I enjoy the match and get actual movement and playing for objectives.

Mech "fish of fury" Tau or a Hammer and Anvil strategy can be a lot of fun to play and interesting enough to play against. Mobile Suit Gundam and Turtle Gunline Tau makes me want to throw up in disgust. Sadly GW seems to encourage big mechs and gunline style of play far more than they encourage mobile units.

 Vankraken wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:
Tau, 100% Tau... oh look a gun line, oh look another gun line... will I be surprised and see transports and croot outflanking and the mobile stuff in their codex... nope another gun line every time I see tau it is either a farsight bomb backed by 1-3 riptides, 2-3 units of broadsides spewing gak-tons of missiles, and a few fire warrior squads all augmented by 3 units of pathfinders. there might be an ethereal to grant buffs too. I like variety... I own tau and love playing them mobile sure I win less that way but I enjoy the match and get actual movement and playing for objectives.

Mech "fish of fury" Tau or a Hammer and Anvil strategy can be a lot of fun to play and interesting enough to play against. Mobile Suit Gundam and Turtle Gunline Tau makes me want to throw up in disgust. Sadly GW seems to encourage big mechs and gunline style of play far more than they encourage mobile units.

How is "drive by" strategy fun to play against? It's just DE but better. They roll up, jump out, rapid fire, hop back in next turn, and leave. How is that fun?

I like playing against every type of faction/list except one: footslogging hordes.

Be it ork or nids (IG doesn't usually move) time just flies by

 G00fySmiley wrote:
Tau, 100% Tau... oh look a gun line, oh look another gun line... will I be surprised and see transports and croot outflanking and the mobile stuff in their codex... nope another gun line every time I see tau it is either a farsight bomb backed by 1-3 riptides, 2-3 units of broadsides spewing gak-tons of missiles, and a few fire warrior squads all augmented by 3 units of pathfinders. there might be an ethereal to grant buffs too. I like variety... I own tau and love playing them mobile sure I win less that way but I enjoy the match and get actual movement and playing for objectives.

I know, right? Luckily the co-worker I just got into the game is playing Tau, but he's using things like Pathfinders with Ion/Rail rifles, Devilfish, Ethereals (plans on getting Aun'va), and a bunch of Strike teams/Breachers. It's very refreshing and fun to play against.

 Gamgee wrote:
The last time I lost 40k was about two years ago.

Then either you are the Miyamoto Musashi of 40k, or you need to get out and play new people.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
The last time I lost 40k was about two years ago.

Then either you are the Miyamoto Musashi of 40k, or you need to get out and play new people.

HAH! The last time I lost was three days ago! Does that make me the Braxton Bragg of 40?

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Vankraken wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:
Tau, 100% Tau... oh look a gun line, oh look another gun line... will I be surprised and see transports and croot outflanking and the mobile stuff in their codex... nope another gun line every time I see tau it is either a farsight bomb backed by 1-3 riptides, 2-3 units of broadsides spewing gak-tons of missiles, and a few fire warrior squads all augmented by 3 units of pathfinders. there might be an ethereal to grant buffs too. I like variety... I own tau and love playing them mobile sure I win less that way but I enjoy the match and get actual movement and playing for objectives.

Mech "fish of fury" Tau or a Hammer and Anvil strategy can be a lot of fun to play and interesting enough to play against. Mobile Suit Gundam and Turtle Gunline Tau makes me want to throw up in disgust. Sadly GW seems to encourage big mechs and gunline style of play far more than they encourage mobile units.

How is "drive by" strategy fun to play against? It's just DE but better. They roll up, jump out, rapid fire, hop back in next turn, and leave. How is that fun?

Most armies can perform drive bys so if you don't like a mechanized list using transports without fire ports then that is more than just a Tau problem. Tau getting into the fight and attempting to move on the board is engaging unlike turtling in the corner trying to wipe the board before stepping out of their deployment zone. 12 Fire Warriors in a 70+ point transport is hardly the most point efficient mechanized unit. In that process you described the Fire Warrior unit is shooting in 1 out of 2-3 turns (turn 1 to move up, turn 2 to unload and fire, turn 3 to load up and move out). Dark Eldar can be shooting from inside their transports on turn 1 and don't need to unload until their vehicle explodes or are going in for an assault.

Martel732 wrote:
HAH! The last time I lost was three days ago! Does that make me the Braxton Bragg of 40?

I would rather play with someone who will beat me than someone who is no challenge. I learn more when losing.

 labmouse42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
HAH! The last time I lost was three days ago! Does that make me the Braxton Bragg of 40?

I would rather play with someone who will beat me than someone who is no challenge. I learn more when losing.

I learned that BA die real good to Tau. I already knew that.

Martel732 wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
HAH! The last time I lost was three days ago! Does that make me the Braxton Bragg of 40?

I would rather play with someone who will beat me than someone who is no challenge. I learn more when losing.

I learned that BA die real good to Tau. I already knew that.

TBF, everything dies really good to Tau

 Torus wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
HAH! The last time I lost was three days ago! Does that make me the Braxton Bragg of 40?

I would rather play with someone who will beat me than someone who is no challenge. I learn more when losing.

I learned that BA die real good to Tau. I already knew that.

TBF, everything dies really good to Tau

I disagree.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Torus wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
HAH! The last time I lost was three days ago! Does that make me the Braxton Bragg of 40?

I would rather play with someone who will beat me than someone who is no challenge. I learn more when losing.

I learned that BA die real good to Tau. I already knew that.

TBF, everything dies really good to Tau

I disagree.

Facepalm all you want, they have every USR related to shooting and I've never seen a unit in the game that they haven't had a hard time ripping to pieces. They might not win every time but that firepower can murder ANYTHING

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
The last time I lost 40k was about two years ago.

Then either you are the Miyamoto Musashi of 40k, or you need to get out and play new people.

I suspect he's more the Kramer of the Dojo.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
The last time I lost 40k was about two years ago.

Then either you are the Miyamoto Musashi of 40k, or you need to get out and play new people.

Last Time I lost a game was in 6th, but I havent played a game since then due to work constraints

Does anyone actually get to play against something that isn't Marines? I sure don't.

Necrons can go die in a fire. That is all.

I would love to play more people, but I can't get to the only place that plays all the way on the opposite side of town and I'm also outside of town very far away and also don't have a vehicle for regular transport. So it's out of the question. I can only get into town a few times a month for critical stuff.

So I just have the few players out here who play and now most of them won't play me. Constant Canadian snow also doesn't help things.

Eldar. Never really motivated to play against Eldar.

Noone around here plays Tau. I've been playing for years and literally never once faced a Tau army.

I'm the local Necron player. They've basically been shelved out of opponent frustration and my own boredom. I'll say, though, that GW delivered a fix for almost every single issue that was perceived as OP from the prior codex, so this seems a bit like a 'be careful what you wish for' situation.

Eldar or Tau, but then I play orks and our last codex was a brown floater and since it's release, my interest has waned a lot.

 Gamgee wrote:
I would love to play more people, but I can't get to the only place that plays all the way on the opposite side of town and I'm also outside of town very far away and also don't have a vehicle for regular transport. So it's out of the question. I can only get into town a few times a month for critical stuff.

So I just have the few players out here who play and now most of them won't play me. Constant Canadian snow also doesn't help things.

Have you ever thought of flying to the US for some tourneys? If you are on the East side, there is a lot going on in the New England area. If you are near Calgary, you can head down for adepticon. If you on the left coast ... well ... it's not as strong out there.

Easily eldar.

Not only is it massively overpowered, fighting against them is just a 3 hour ego-strokefest for the eldar opponent.

Plus, almost every single one of them have the "eldar is for experts ONLY" mentality, and think they're God's gift to tactical thinking.

Glad they're banned in the 2 clubs I go to.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
I would love to play more people, but I can't get to the only place that plays all the way on the opposite side of town and I'm also outside of town very far away and also don't have a vehicle for regular transport. So it's out of the question. I can only get into town a few times a month for critical stuff.

So I just have the few players out here who play and now most of them won't play me. Constant Canadian snow also doesn't help things.

Have you ever thought of flying to the US for some tourneys? If you are on the East side, there is a lot going on in the New England area. If you are near Calgary, you can head down for adepticon. If you on the left coast ... well ... it's not as strong out there.

Long range (by my standards) travel isn't an option except for the biggest tournaments and only once a year because a lot of my physical disabilities make travel a pain in the ass or stomach I should say.

 Gamgee wrote:
Long range (by my standards) travel isn't an option except for the biggest tournaments and only once a year because a lot of my physical disabilities make travel a pain in the ass or stomach I should say.

Well that sucks man. My son has cerebral palsy, and I've learned disabilities can be a bitch in making life more challenging.

Hopefully you can get enough games in to enjoy it, and maybe one day make it to Nova, Adepticon or LVO.

I don't have anything that bad yet and I'm sorry to hear about your son. The one owner of our store here has something similar to it but thankfully it seems minor or fairly well controlled.

Someday I hope to make it there, but finding work is tough as well in this economy and with the distance into town, and racism, and my conditions its hard to find work. I'm lucky I have my grandfather left to help me out or likely wouldn't be playing 40k.

kburn wrote:
Easily eldar.

Not only is it massively overpowered, fighting against them is just a 3 hour ego-strokefest for the eldar opponent.

Plus, almost every single one of them have the "eldar is for experts ONLY" mentality, and think they're God's gift to tactical thinking.

Glad they're banned in the 2 clubs I go to.

That's really sad. Sad that an entire faction is banned where you play and the accusation that every single Eldar player proclaims themselves as God's gift.

Well let me just say that no we are not all asshats like you say, a lot of us fell in love with the fluff and will be more than happy to tone down their lists in a casual setting to provide a good game as would a number of Tau and Necron players.

And as I try to say to all players who have been burned by the power gamers: I hope you meet and have a great game vs a cool Eldar player...

Surprised at how few votes there are for Imperial Knights. Perhaps it's because they're rarely played as a standalone army. Honestly though they're just so dull. If you knew they were coming then you packed AT weapons and hope you can blow through them and sit on objectives. If you didn't know they were coming you probably don't have anything like enough firepower to kill 1, let alone 4. The game is basically a binary DPS test for your anti tanks while the rest of your army sits around jerking and tanking wounds for the oh-so-precious meltagunners.

Doesn't necessarily make the game difficult, it's just simply not fun to wade through 24 HP while they seem to completely ignore the effects of your attacks. (I'd imagine that playing against a Riptide wing army would feel about the same)

Necrons. It's always been Necrons. I rarely have a good time playing against them. I can't quite figure out what it is about them that I dislike either. Obviously there are numerous reasons I could dislike playing against them, but none of them really stand out as THE reason. Could just be that I don't like the army in general...

 Torus wrote:

kburn wrote:
Easily eldar.

Not only is it massively overpowered, fighting against them is just a 3 hour ego-strokefest for the eldar opponent.

Plus, almost every single one of them have the "eldar is for experts ONLY" mentality, and think they're God's gift to tactical thinking.

Glad they're banned in the 2 clubs I go to.

That's really sad. Sad that an entire faction is banned where you play and the accusation that every single Eldar player proclaims themselves as God's gift.

Well let me just say that no we are not all asshats like you say, a lot of us fell in love with the fluff and will be more than happy to tone down their lists in a casual setting to provide a good game as would a number of Tau and Necron players.

And as I try to say to all players who have been burned by the power gamers: I hope you meet and have a great game vs a cool Eldar player...

Much respect for you, sir. It would appear there are less and less Eldar players like you.

Eldar. If after turn three my entire strategy is go to ground behind an Aegis because the rest of my army is pulverised and trying to shoot at Warp Spiders isn't worth my time.

However, that's just the Eldar/Wraithknight/Triptide list. I love fighting Striking Scorpions and the like, but 5 squads of Warp Spiders and 3 of jinking scatterbikes isn't much fun.

 ChazSexington wrote:
Eldar. If after turn three my entire strategy is go to ground behind an Aegis because the rest of my army is pulverised and trying to shoot at Warp Spiders isn't worth my time.

However, that's just the Eldar/Wraithknight/Triptide list. I love fighting Striking Scorpions and the like, but 5 squads of Warp Spiders and 3 of jinking scatterbikes isn't much fun.

Well yeah, playing against people who spam Jetbikes or Warp Spyders it probably not going to be fun.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:
Eldar. If after turn three my entire strategy is go to ground behind an Aegis because the rest of my army is pulverised and trying to shoot at Warp Spiders isn't worth my time.

However, that's just the Eldar/Wraithknight/Triptide list. I love fighting Striking Scorpions and the like, but 5 squads of Warp Spiders and 3 of jinking scatterbikes isn't much fun.

Well yeah, playing against people who spam Jetbikes or Warp Spyders it probably not going to be fun.

I don't mind it at tournaments (it's to be expected), but when people know I'm bringing a fluffy Cultist CSM force it's not gonna be that challenging for them, nor will I be able to put up a decent resistance. Tbh, I do learn from the games, but I'm still incapable of countering anything.

 ChazSexington wrote:
when people know I'm bringing a fluffy Cultist CSM force it's not gonna be that challenging for them,

Dude, if you're bringing CSM Cultists, I will gladly break out my Imperial Guard to play you, and leave my Eldars on the shelf!

Or maybe I'll just bring the Eldar stuff that doesn't see competitive play...

Or maybe, just maybe, I'll ask you what you'd prefer to play against. Because maybe you'd actually rather play against Inquisition or Sisters or something...

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Torus wrote:

kburn wrote:
Easily eldar.

Not only is it massively overpowered, fighting against them is just a 3 hour ego-strokefest for the eldar opponent.

Plus, almost every single one of them have the "eldar is for experts ONLY" mentality, and think they're God's gift to tactical thinking.

Glad they're banned in the 2 clubs I go to.

That's really sad. Sad that an entire faction is banned where you play and the accusation that every single Eldar player proclaims themselves as God's gift.

Well let me just say that no we are not all asshats like you say, a lot of us fell in love with the fluff and will be more than happy to tone down their lists in a casual setting to provide a good game as would a number of Tau and Necron players.

And as I try to say to all players who have been burned by the power gamers: I hope you meet and have a great game vs a cool Eldar player...

Much respect for you, sir. It would appear there are less and less Eldar players like you.

Sadly we seem to be a dying breed. It's becoming harder and harder to play Eldar, since a lot of people just refuse to play them outright, and that's harsh on those of us who like playing with the less competitive stuff, or who run themed lists (my Iybraesil themed force with lots of Guardians and Banshees for example). It's a shame too, I got into Eldar in 7th edition because a friend of mine gifted me the codex and some Guardians, and that's when I fell in love with them and their fluff. All I ask is that other players give those who play Eldar a chance. We're not all WAAC Power Gamers.

 War Kitten wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Torus wrote:

kburn wrote:
Easily eldar.

Not only is it massively overpowered, fighting against them is just a 3 hour ego-strokefest for the eldar opponent.

Plus, almost every single one of them have the "eldar is for experts ONLY" mentality, and think they're God's gift to tactical thinking.

Glad they're banned in the 2 clubs I go to.

That's really sad. Sad that an entire faction is banned where you play and the accusation that every single Eldar player proclaims themselves as God's gift.

Well let me just say that no we are not all asshats like you say, a lot of us fell in love with the fluff and will be more than happy to tone down their lists in a casual setting to provide a good game as would a number of Tau and Necron players.

And as I try to say to all players who have been burned by the power gamers: I hope you meet and have a great game vs a cool Eldar player...

Much respect for you, sir. It would appear there are less and less Eldar players like you.

Sadly we seem to be a dying breed. It's becoming harder and harder to play Eldar, since a lot of people just refuse to play them outright, and that's harsh on those of us who like playing with the less competitive stuff, or who run themed lists (my Iybraesil themed force with lots of Guardians and Banshees for example). It's a shame too, I got into Eldar in 7th edition because a friend of mine gifted me the codex and some Guardians, and that's when I fell in love with them and their fluff. All I ask is that other players give those who play Eldar a chance. We're not all WAAC Power Gamers.

Luckily my local Eldar players are right in the head and think that a lot of the stuff in the Eldar book is ridiculous, and refrain from bringing scatterbikes and Wraithknights all the time.

 Torus wrote:
And as I try to say to all players who have been burned by the power gamers: I hope you meet and have a great game vs a cool Eldar player...

That's why I've been playing a thematic list of aspect warriors. While it's a good list, it's not filled with scatbikes. Hell, I even have been running banshees.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Torus wrote:
And as I try to say to all players who have been burned by the power gamers: I hope you meet and have a great game vs a cool Eldar player...

That's why I've been playing a thematic list of aspect warriors. While it's a good list, it's not filled with scatbikes. Hell, I even have been running banshees.

That sounds like a strong list that would be fun to play against.

I have played Eldar as a main army since 4th ed and they have always been my favorite race. Bikes have always been my favorite Troop. My typical list is about 5 Scatterbike units and a WraithKnight.
However, I also bring a substitute list that trades most of the Scatter lasers for Shuricannons and trades the WK for something like 2x Fire Prisms or some Swooping Hawks and a Night Spinner.

As long as my opponent isn't running Tau, Necron Decurion, SM Gladius or Skyhammer, I'll ask my opponent if they want me to swap for the tone-down list. In fact, I only ever use the "all scatterbike" list in tourneys.
Eldar are surprisingly rare in my area. So much so that I have yet to have anyone deny me a game.

Then again, many players in my area play Forge world army lists, so I get the feeling that most people have no idea what they are fighting most of the time. The general consensus is to just go with it.

Necron Decurion. At least Eldar and Tau die when their supposed to.

I actually stopped playing my Necrons in our group as it was no fun for either sides. Now we have multiple newer Necron players.

Chaos Daemons becouse whennever i see themm its the 2+ invulnarable, invisible, flying kind with a phycic phase longer thenn my whole turn.

People complain anout Warp Spider spam.


You should see them in Killteam.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:
when people know I'm bringing a fluffy Cultist CSM force it's not gonna be that challenging for them,

Dude, if you're bringing CSM Cultists, I will gladly break out my Imperial Guard to play you, and leave my Eldars on the shelf!

Or maybe I'll just bring the Eldar stuff that doesn't see competitive play...

Or maybe, just maybe, I'll ask you what you'd prefer to play against. Because maybe you'd actually rather play against Inquisition or Sisters or something...

Hahahah, IG are the worst for me! 3 Wyverns (110 points?) flatten 35 Cultists, roughly 160 points, per round! And Leman Russ battle tanks do filthy things to anything in power armour!

I would take casual Eldar any day over IG!

 krodarklorr wrote:
That sounds like a strong list that would be fun to play against.

Thanks. That is my goal.

I field a lot of models (88) in my 1850 list. One of the main reasons I do this is to give my opponent lots of models to kill. It's a lot of fun to have your models kill your opponents models. Unlike a scat bike / wraithhost build where it's really hard to remove the eldar models, you can kill my dire avengers, banshees, hawks, and spiders in droves.

The goal is to still be competitive (and it seems to be) yet still be fun for everyone.

My 1850 ITC list

 ChazSexington wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:
when people know I'm bringing a fluffy Cultist CSM force it's not gonna be that challenging for them,

Dude, if you're bringing CSM Cultists, I will gladly break out my Imperial Guard to play you, and leave my Eldars on the shelf!

Or maybe I'll just bring the Eldar stuff that doesn't see competitive play...

Or maybe, just maybe, I'll ask you what you'd prefer to play against. Because maybe you'd actually rather play against Inquisition or Sisters or something...

Hahahah, IG are the worst for me! 3 Wyverns (110 points?) flatten 35 Cultists, roughly 160 points, per round! And Leman Russ battle tanks do filthy things to anything in power armour!

I would take casual Eldar any day over IG!

3 Wyverns are 195pts, not 110, and LRBT's are widely renowned as amongs the poorest options in the book. Eldar will do far worse things to power armor

OK, fair enough then. Tho I would note that I only have 1 Wyvern. For now.

 Vaktathi wrote:
3 Wyverns are 195pts, not 110, and LRBT's are widely renowned as amongs the poorest options in the book. Eldar will do far worse things to power armor

You're right on the points cost.

And I politely disagree. I lost Huron and 13 CSMs to LRBTs in a single round last time.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
OK, fair enough then. Tho I would note that I only have 1 Wyvern. For now.

Then we'd have no problem!

My 100 Cultists charging across the battlefield, hulking Dreadnought behind them, supported by autocannon fire from the Havocs, CSMs with a Sorcerer invisibly stalking the Corpse-Emperor's lapdogs, and Cypher and his Chosen Outflanking!

LRBT's are still effective vs meqs and multiple wound T4 targets, but perform poorly against units with a substantial cover save, T5 multiple wounds, or 2+ armor. The LRBT costs too much and is too vulnerable for its price and these gaps in its efficacy. It's not much cheaper than a Riptide that is an order of magnitude more durable, and can engage 2+ armor and untis with cover saves. Still weak vs MCs, but what isn't?

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
3 Wyverns are 195pts, not 110, and LRBT's are widely renowned as amongs the poorest options in the book. Eldar will do far worse things to power armor

You're right on the points cost.

And I politely disagree. I lost Huron and 13 CSMs to LRBTs in a single round last time.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
OK, fair enough then. Tho I would note that I only have 1 Wyvern. For now.

Then we'd have no problem!

My 100 Cultists charging across the battlefield, hulking Dreadnought behind them, supported by autocannon fire from the Havocs, CSMs with a Sorcerer invisibly stalking the Corpse-Emperor's lapdogs, and Cypher and his Chosen Outflanking!

1. Dun bunch up yer dudes like that.

2. I'm totally good with that army, and would typically field a couple Platoons supported by various tanks. It'd look awesome!

You'd hate the Death Korps then. For 165 pts they'll get 3 Thudd guns that will be about as nasty agaisnt your cultists and for the price of a Leman Russ they get 2 Earthshakers/twice the large blasts

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
3 Wyverns are 195pts, not 110, and LRBT's are widely renowned as amongs the poorest options in the book. Eldar will do far worse things to power armor

You're right on the points cost.

And I politely disagree. I lost Huron and 13 CSMs to LRBTs in a single round last time.

I didnt say they couldnt be dangerous, but you have to "feed" them optimal opportunities to get then to be so. Getting 14 models under a single template is...quite feat, particularly with no cover, and for the shot to land dead on and not fail to wound anybody (or...if it did, getting more than 14 dudes under a single pieplate is...I think impossible), is basically the "all stars align" dream scenario IG players often hope for, but rarely get. I dont think ive ever killed that many models with an LRBT, and havent been given a clear shot at a clumped up group of marines in the open that landed dead on since 5th editon

More often the IG player wont get more than 3-6 models under the pieplate, and with even just 5+ cover, theyre only getting a bit better than a 50% kill rate.

Mainly, avoid bunching your dudes up and an LRBT will never be particularly scary

Martel has the right of it about LRBT's. Also...they have to snapfire all other guns if they fire the main gun.

 Bobthehero wrote:
You'd hate the Death Korps then. For 165 pts they'll get 3 Thudd guns that will be about as nasty agaisnt your cultists and for the price of a Leman Russ they get 2 Earthshakers/twice the large blasts

You should write up the heaviest Artillery list possible. Make your enemies weep with your wallet.

Unfortunately, that title goes to the Renegade list, because their arty is even cheaper.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
You should write up the heaviest Artillery list possible. Make your enemies weep with your wallet.

GW already did that as a 1-click buy:

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Exalted-Court-House-Terryn-Rules-Bundle

 Vaktathi wrote:
I didnt say they couldnt be dangerous, but you have to "feed" them optimal opportunities to get then to be so. Getting 14 models under a single template is...quite feat, particularly with no cover, and for the shot to land dead on and not fail to wound anybody (or...if it did, getting more than 14 dudes under a single pieplate is...I think impossible), is basically the "all stars align" dream scenario IG players often hope for, but rarely get. I dont think ive ever killed that many models with an LRBT, and havent been given a clear shot at a clumped up group of marines in the open that landed dead on since 5th editon

More often the IG player wont get more than 3-6 models under the pieplate, and with even just 5+ cover, theyre only getting a bit better than a 50% kill rate.

Mainly, avoid bunching your dudes up and an LRBT will never be particularly scary

Martel has the right of it about LRBT's. Also...they have to snapfire all other guns if they fire the main gun.

It was half a year ago, so my CSMs were on 25mm bases, but they weren't that badly bunched up - I think I came under fire from 2 or 3 LRBTs. Ages ago, so can't really remember.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:


1. Dun bunch up yer dudes like that.

2. I'm totally good with that army, and would typically field a couple Platoons supported by various tanks. It'd look awesome!

It would! Nothing looks better than massive forces clashing without having all the infantry disappear after the 1st round!

 labmouse42 wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
That sounds like a strong list that would be fun to play against.

Thanks. That is my goal.

I field a lot of models (88) in my 1850 list. One of the main reasons I do this is to give my opponent lots of models to kill. It's a lot of fun to have your models kill your opponents models. Unlike a scat bike / wraithhost build where it's really hard to remove the eldar models, you can kill my dire avengers, banshees, hawks, and spiders in droves.

The goal is to still be competitive (and it seems to be) yet still be fun for everyone.

My 1850 ITC list

Spoiler:

Pale Host Formation
Farseer
10 Dire Avengers w/Exarch
10 Dire Avengers w/Exarch
10 Dire Avengers w/Exarch

Wraithknight w/Glaive & Shield

Aspect Host
10 Warp Spiders w/Exarch
10 Warp Spiders w/Exarch
6 Dark Reapers w/Exarch

Aspect Host
10 Howling Banshees w/Exarch
10 Howling Banshees w/Exarch
10 Swooping Hawks w/Exarch

I'd still be careful with that list. It seems fine for tournaments, but depending on your opponent, they may or may not want (or be able to deal with) a Wraithknight and a bunch of Warp Spyders at 1850.

I don't know, those warp spider squads will have such a large footprint It'll be much easier to draw a bead on them... everything else fairly squishy so I'd argue it wouldn't be as damaging to throw in a single cc wraithknight in there.

 krodarklorr wrote:
I'd still be careful with that list. It seems fine for tournaments, but depending on your opponent, they may or may not want (or be able to deal with) a Wraithknight and a bunch of Warp Spyders at 1850.

When playing for more casual games I swap out the WK for another avenger squad and shining spears.

 Torus wrote:
I don't know, those warp spider squads will have such a large footprint It'll be much easier to draw a bead on them... everything else fairly squishy so I'd argue it wouldn't be as damaging to throw in a single cc wraithknight in there.

Yep. They throw out a ton of damage, but can be killed fairly easily with concentrated fire. The main use for the WK I've found is to slow down enemy deathstar units. If I can get 2-3 turns where their deathstar is not eating one or two of my units a turn, I can usually clear the rest of their army by then.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
I'd still be careful with that list. It seems fine for tournaments, but depending on your opponent, they may or may not want (or be able to deal with) a Wraithknight and a bunch of Warp Spyders at 1850.

When playing for more casual games I swap out the WK for another avenger squad and shining spears.

By all means though, if you're fighting a more competitive Necron/Tau/Marine list, the Wraithknight is fine. But I'm glad you do swap it out against more casual opponents.

I voted for Necrons, though I don't actually dislike them. The problem is that the level of firepower needed to melt Necron squads makes most any other army shrivel up and die in short order, so I feel like I kinda have to list-tailor more than I'm comfortable with if I don't also want to just steamroll any non-Necron opponent (other than Gladius/Lion's Blade MSU, which can be a tough nut to crack, because they can play the mission like a boss and can do target saturation really well).

That said, I've had surprising success against Necrons with my Sisters, which kinda probably shouldn't happen, so maybe I'm just generally an outlier. (Mostly still lost, because Sisters have some issues having enough objective holders while still having enough damage potential, but heavy flamers actually rack up kills when you have enough of them...)

But, I'd rather play against a fun player with an OP cheese-bomb army than a fair and balanced army in the hands of a complete gargleclown of a player. We've got one of those locally - when I get matched up against him in a league I just concede and hand him the win, because although I'll cream him nine ways to sunday every time, it'll be a stress-filled infuriation-fest, so frak that.

My young teams of guards are afraid of those thunder wolves.... Basically one hitting my tanks with thunder hammers. The crew from the russes made a hatch to escape from the havoc that those hammers can do.

jade_angel wrote:
I voted for Necrons, though I don't actually dislike them. The problem is that the level of firepower needed to melt Necron squads makes most any other army shrivel up and die in short order, so I feel like I kinda have to list-tailor more than I'm comfortable with if I don't also want to just steamroll any non-Necron opponent (other than Gladius/Lion's Blade MSU, which can be a tough nut to crack, because they can play the mission like a boss and can do target saturation really well).

That said, I've had surprising success against Necrons with my Sisters, which kinda probably shouldn't happen, so maybe I'm just generally an outlier. (Mostly still lost, because Sisters have some issues having enough objective holders while still having enough damage potential, but heavy flamers actually rack up kills when you have enough of them...)

But, I'd rather play against a fun player with an OP cheese-bomb army than a fair and balanced army in the hands of a complete gargleclown of a player. We've got one of those locally - when I get matched up against him in a league I just concede and hand him the win, because although I'll cream him nine ways to sunday every time, it'll be a stress-filled infuriation-fest, so frak that.

I was about to say, you better not hate playing against me! (Though you might for other reasons, as I'm sure you know). But yeah, you're sisters have put some hurt on my Crons, mainly because of those damn Heavy Flamers.

And I will warn you, either this weekend or the next, I'm going to be running the new models I have assembled. Prepare for Lychstars out the wazzoo!

Nah, I don't hate that - mild aggravation, but that's forgiveable. Looking forward to finding a way around the Lychstars, actually - I can deal with a few Lychguard but a bunch of them can soak up a ton of fire while being a force to be reckoned with in CC too.

jade_angel wrote:
Nah, I don't hate that - mild aggravation, but that's forgiveable. Looking forward to finding a way around the Lychstars, actually - I can deal with a few Lychguard but a bunch of them can soak up a ton of fire while being a force to be reckoned with in CC too.

Yeah, I got the rest of the named HQs I don't have (I'll let you guess which ones. ), and I now have 20 Lychguard. Should be fun.

jade_angel wrote:
But, I'd rather play against a fun player with an OP cheese-bomb army than a fair and balanced army in the hands of a complete gargleclown of a player. We've got one of those locally - when I get matched up against him in a league I just concede and hand him the win, because although I'll cream him nine ways to sunday every time, it'll be a stress-filled infuriation-fest, so frak that.

I'm stealing the term "gargleclown". Just thought I'd let you know.

 EnTyme wrote:

jade_angel wrote:
But, I'd rather play against a fun player with an OP cheese-bomb army than a fair and balanced army in the hands of a complete gargleclown of a player. We've got one of those locally - when I get matched up against him in a league I just concede and hand him the win, because although I'll cream him nine ways to sunday every time, it'll be a stress-filled infuriation-fest, so frak that.

I'm stealing the term "gargleclown". Just thought I'd let you know.

Yeah he does that. He has a whole slew of phrases. It's really quite amazing.

I've always wanted to try a "Boyz n Gurls club" against Necrons, with AP4 flamers backed up by AP4 Lootas. Could be fun.

 JimOnMars wrote:
I've always wanted to try a "Boyz n Gurls club" against Necrons, with AP4 flamers backed up by AP4 Lootas. Could be fun.

Until they bring nothing ghost Ghost Arks and 3+ armor save dudes.

But for real, clever name, I applaud you.

The Tau overwatch with the mass amounts of firewarriors and battle suits is really what kills you if you dont close quickly

 TheLionDA wrote:
The Tau overwatch with the mass amounts of firewarriors and battle suits is really what kills you if you dont close quickly

I don't see how that's what you're concerned about with Tau. Overwatch doesn't do that much damage, if at all, and they can only do it once.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 TheLionDA wrote:
The Tau overwatch with the mass amounts of firewarriors and battle suits is really what kills you if you dont close quickly

I don't see how that's what you're concerned about with Tau. Overwatch doesn't do that much damage, if at all, and they can only do it once.

You say that, but I've had entire units wiped from the board from overwatch and supporting fire

Maybe if it's a tightly gaggled-up gunline with lots of Pathfinders on hand to snapfire markerlights until they get lucky, then, say, let a squad of Crisis Suits open up with plasma at BS5... Otherwise, eh, most times I only manage to get 5-6 hits, 3-4 wounds, and against 'Crons, usually no kills, or maybe one. Heck, I've had Dark Eldar units soak three units of supporting fire and only lose two Wyches...

jade_angel wrote:
Maybe if it's a tightly gaggled-up gunline with lots of Pathfinders on hand to snapfire markerlights until they get lucky, then, say, let a squad of Crisis Suits open up with plasma at BS5... Otherwise, eh, most times I only manage to get 5-6 hits, 3-4 wounds, and against 'Crons, usually no kills, or maybe one. Heck, I've had Dark Eldar units soak three units of supporting fire and only lose two Wyches...

maybe I'm just an unlucky outlier then... I've had multiple units of full strength swooping hawks get murdered when they charge a vehicle, even a few warlocks in a seer council (with 2+ rerollable saves!) get rinced from over watch stunting their charge... I can't begin to describe just how much of a game changer that has been on multiple occasions, I guess I just don't know how to play against Tau

 Torus wrote:

jade_angel wrote:
Maybe if it's a tightly gaggled-up gunline with lots of Pathfinders on hand to snapfire markerlights until they get lucky, then, say, let a squad of Crisis Suits open up with plasma at BS5... Otherwise, eh, most times I only manage to get 5-6 hits, 3-4 wounds, and against 'Crons, usually no kills, or maybe one. Heck, I've had Dark Eldar units soak three units of supporting fire and only lose two Wyches...

maybe I'm just an unlucky outlier then... I've had multiple units of full strength swooping hawks get murdered when they charge a vehicle, even a few warlocks in a seer council (with 2+ rerollable saves!) get rinced from over watch stunting their charge... I can't begin to describe just how much of a game changer that has been on multiple occasions, I guess I just don't know how to play against Tau

That really just comes down to bad luck. Like, abysmally bad luck. Like the time I lost my 5th edition Necron CCB to a mixture of overwatch and then being punched to death by the Stealth Suits that he charged.

Tau. I hate being shot at by fish.

 Matthew wrote:
Tau. I hate being shot at by fish.

Oh, well I suppose that's one way of putting it.

Considering how many people at my FLGS have picked up Space Wolves in the past month, I may have to change my vote to Team Jacob. I'm surprised at how few complaints I've seen concerning the new Wolfen (Wolven?) and Murderpack rules.

Honestly? At this point I think it's because there is now so much OP gak floating around this game, that people are just used to it now. With Scatbikes, Wraith Knights, and GSF's and all the crazy gak that comes with them, things like the murderpack just seem mild in comparison I guess

Seriously, I mostly play choppy armies and there's nothing that tears my soul apart more than watching my puppies being shot at. Cowards, can they not face me in combat?

I had to vote Knights here, just because they lack a toned-down option: Necrons can decide to not go Decurion, Eldar can leave the WK/scatbikes/D-guns at home.

IK, though, just isn't fun. It reminds me of playing a grinding boss battle over over and over as you try to penetrate its AV and ion shields.

For my it is tyranids.
I recently started an armored Guard army, and my tanks hate when tens of hormagaunts hit them with S4 in the rear, or when zoanthropes throw rayon psychic powers at them...
With my marines I could just pod a unit and kill the zoanthropes, and I don't rely on expensive armored tank to see them to die because they have 10 at the rear...
They just negate the power of my armoring.

 godardc wrote:
For my it is tyranids.
I recently started an armored Guard army, and my tanks hate when tens of hormagaunts hit them with S4 in the rear, or when zoanthropes throw rayon psychic powers at them...
With my marines I could just pod a unit and kill the zoanthropes, and I don't rely on expensive armored tank to see them to die because they have 10 at the rear...
They just negate the power of my armoring.

welcome to IG and non-skimmer tanks in general in 7E

That said, Tyranids should be amongst the least egregious armor killers. Between Necrons, Eldar, Tau, Grav, AdMech, etc, theres a whole lot more that cuts tanks down much faster

 godardc wrote:
For my it is tyranids.
I recently started an armored Guard army, and my tanks hate when tens of hormagaunts hit them with S4 in the rear, or when zoanthropes throw rayon psychic powers at them...
With my marines I could just pod a unit and kill the zoanthropes, and I don't rely on expensive armored tank to see them to die because they have 10 at the rear...
They just negate the power of my armoring.

Nids are very easy for guard. With the amount of pie plates we put out I'm not sure how your having a problem. For me it's something boring such as necrons. If I'm going going to be beaten by an OP army I want it to at least look nice. Crons are just ugly.

I'm playing an armored battle group from IA volume two, not the best Guard can do.
We played only two times, at 920 pts (he is only beggining his nids, he only bought the big swarm box, with a lot of gaunts, a flyrant, and a box of zoanthropes).

My poor leman russes can't kill his thropes, before Turn 2 or 3, they are quite resistant, with FNP, invulnerable save and cover BLOS terrains.
And turn two, the gaunts are on me (only 8 horma needed to kill a Leman Russ in hand to hand).
At 900pts, and focussing on tanks, I have few infantry to protect my tanks.

Of course, I could take only punisher, demolisher etc... And be invulnerable to all but 4 models in his army, but...

This is why, for the moment, I have difficutlies.
When we do biggers games, it will be differents.
The table will be bigger, I'll have other toys, he will have less synapses porpotionnally, etc... It is not really a problem with the Guard, but with my list, wich isn't intended to be played at such a low points level, when his is perfectly capable.

I had great pleasure playing against the same nids with my marines, however.

im currently boycotting playing eldar to the point of extremes. farsight tau are also an army i have serious issues playing against. if you cant live without your farsight enclave as a tau player then i probably wont ever play you

Why specially Farsight ?

 tau tse tung wrote:

Nids are very easy for guard. With the amount of pie plates we put out I'm not sure how your having a problem. For me it's something boring such as necrons. If I'm going going to be beaten by an OP army I want it to at least look nice. Crons are just ugly.

Well sir, I take offense to that.

Neurons because I don't want to die brutally

 Lord Inquisitor Nathandar wrote:
Neurons because I don't want to die brutally

You die brutally to Necrons? Necrons don't typically brutally kill things.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Lord Inquisitor Nathandar wrote:
Neurons because I don't want to die brutally

You die brutally to Necrons? Necrons don't typically brutally kill things.

Weeell Newcrons do brutally kill everything... just very slowly within 12" Radius

 Torus wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Lord Inquisitor Nathandar wrote:
Neurons because I don't want to die brutally

You die brutally to Necrons? Necrons don't typically brutally kill things.

Weeell Newcrons do brutally kill everything... just very slowly within 12" Radius

So don't be within 12" of them. Most armies can outrange them.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Torus wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Lord Inquisitor Nathandar wrote:
Neurons because I don't want to die brutally

You die brutally to Necrons? Necrons don't typically brutally kill things.

Weeell Newcrons do brutally kill everything... just very slowly within 12" Radius

So don't be within 12" of them. Most armies can outrange them.

Sorry, I tend to forget scarastic jokes don't look like jokes on the web...

To be fair, Necrons usually don't have much of a problem getting most of their stuff into range. Between things like Wraiths and Jetbikes, renteless/MTC infantry, flyer & skimmer transports, etc, I usually find Necron opponents have most or all of their army within striking range of anything they want by turn 2. Take something as simple as Warriors, even footslogging on a simple opposing long board edges deployment, they can engage targets in an opposing deployment zone by turn 2 easily (12" up on deployment, 6" move, 3.5" average run, 6" turn 2 move, 24" max range/12" doubletap puts your opponent's deployment zone in range, add in a Relentless assault move and it's possible to have them launch an assault within their opponent's deployment zone turn 2), and with a transport they can drastically increase that, and that's about the slowest thing in the army.

 Vaktathi wrote:
To be fair, Necrons usually don't have much of a problem getting most of their stuff into range. Between things like Wraiths and Jetbikes, renteless/MTC infantry, flyer & skimmer transports, etc, I usually find Necron opponents have most or all of their army within striking range of anything they want by turn 2. Take something as simple as Warriors, even footslogging on a simple opposing long board edges deployment, they can engage targets in an opposing deployment zone by turn 2 easily (12" up on deployment, 6" move, 3.5" average run, 6" turn 2 move, 24" max range/12" doubletap puts your opponent's deployment zone in range, add in a Relentless assault move and it's possible to have them launch an assault within their opponent's deployment zone turn 2), and with a transport they can drastically increase that, and that's about the slowest thing in the army.

If you're assaulting with Warriors, you're doing it wrong. The only reason you'd ever assault with your warriors is that you know that the target will almost certainly be assaulting them the next turn and you just want to get the +1 attack for charging.