Omg the Cabal seems to be powerful. Also it's interesting that the new supplement doesn't prevent with its rulings a new CSM codex. The formations do not have points. Also the supplements do not contain datasheets. It seems that there will only be formations artifacts and traits. The odds are good
I really want to know what restrictions "This is a Black Legion Formation" entails... Must purchase Veterans of the Long War? May not take marks of chaos? The Hounds of Abaddon and the Cabal seem like really good formations. The Tormented could be good if we can take marks (WS5 I5 T5 possesed with rending? Might make them good finally).
Verviedi wrote: Well, my Kataphrons are no longer even going to be on the same table as that Sorceror formation. Too scary. Good job writing great rules, GW.
Dude, you gotta let us Chaos players have something...
Read as written, that's an interesting rule that follows the fluff and name but that I suspect will be misread. It says an enemy unit must be COMPLETELY destroyed by a UNIT (singular) from a Black Legion warband. So if any other unit kills even one model in that 40 ork boyz squad that another squad killed 39 in, neither unit can get the bonus for destroying the unit. I predict that folks will instead mistakenly add "in a turn" to it and assume that if they wipe out what is present at the start of a turn with a single unit then they deserve the bonus.
If someone tries to say that just because Gets Hot killed one of my plasma gunners that the BL don't get to benefit from Thirst For Glory, they are getting Dreadsocked.
Read as written, that's an interesting rule that follows the fluff and name but that I suspect will be misread. It says an enemy unit must be COMPLETELY destroyed by a UNIT (singular) from a Black Legion warband. So if any other unit kills even one model in that 40 ork boyz squad that another squad killed 39 in, neither unit can get the bonus for destroying the unit. I predict that folks will instead mistakenly add "in a turn" to it and assume that if they wipe out what is present at the start of a turn with a single unit then they deserve the bonus.
casvalremdeikun wrote: If someone tries to say that just because Gets Hot killed one of my plasma gunners that the BL don't get to benefit from Thirst For Glory, they are getting Dreadsocked.
Agreed. Honestly, it just sounds like if a single unit causes another unit to be wiped off the board (there are none left, they're completely destroyed), you get it. It's there to prevent 2-4 units or something from cutting a unit down together to benefit. That's my take. It's continuing the idea of Chaos challenges, only in unit form.
casvalremdeikun wrote: If someone tries to say that just because Gets Hot killed one of my plasma gunners that the BL don't get to benefit from Thirst For Glory, they are getting Dreadsocked.
You're free to house rule whatever you want in agreement with your opponent but a gets hot casualty would indeed DQ the unit from granting Thirst for Glory as written. I see what you're proposing as a reasonable change to the rules (and it is indeed a change) but I'd simply refuse to play someone that thought they could whittle down a unit with multiple squads and then claim the bonus with one squad in a subsequent turn.
That's a good point. It fits the fluff of Chaos champions/challenges but in squad form of them calling out an enemy unit as their own for the taking and mechanically is likely meant to address MSU min maxing.
I think that might be a overly restrictive read on it. Was there a unit there before you shot/chopped, and isn’t now? You get the bonus. Don’t think it matters if it was mangled before.
IMHO, HIWPI, etc. I’m sure it will get hashed out in YMDC after the rules are officially out.
casvalremdeikun wrote: If someone tries to say that just because Gets Hot killed one of my plasma gunners that the BL don't get to benefit from Thirst For Glory, they are getting Dreadsocked.
Agreed. Honestly, it just sounds like if a single unit causes another unit to be wiped off the board (there are none left, they're completely destroyed), you get it. It's there to prevent 2-4 units or something from cutting a unit down together to benefit. That's my take. It's continuing the idea of Chaos challenges, only in unit form.
- There's no datacards and/or psychic cards. This is mandatory in 7th updates of codexes.
- All the updates are for supplements, which contain no unit description, costs or wargear.
All they've done is update the two supplements. I don't think this is the main update, as the update they've done now can easily be transfered to a upcoming update of the main codex.
Take a breath and realize that this is a hotfix to the current supplements; NOT an update of the codex and of Chaos Space Marines.
Nordicus wrote: Before we continue, please note the following:
- There's no update of the main codex.
- There's no datacards and/or psychic cards. This is mandatory in 7th updates of codexes.
- All the updates are for supplements, which contain no unit description, costs or wargear.
All they've done is update the two supplements. I don't think this is the main update, as the update they've done now can easily be transfered to a upcoming update of the main codex.
Take a breath and realize that this is a hotfix to the current supplements; NOT an update of the codex and of Chaos Space Marines.
Now continue
New CSM incoming. No salt. It's about time. At last. My kingdom and my horse for this. Also I totally agree with you.
Read as written, that's an interesting rule that follows the fluff and name but that I suspect will be misread. It says an enemy unit must be COMPLETELY destroyed by a UNIT (singular) from a Black Legion warband. So if any other unit kills even one model in that 40 ork boyz squad that another squad killed 39 in, neither unit can get the bonus for destroying the unit. I predict that folks will instead mistakenly add "in a turn" to it and assume that if they wipe out what is present at the start of a turn with a single unit then they deserve the bonus.
Wait. "Completely destroyed" is defined in the BRB as "When all of the models in a unit are removed as casualties", not "When all of the original models in a unit are removed as casualties in the same turn". So, when the last model is removed, then the unit is "completely destroyed", regardless of how many models it started the turn with.
Does anyone play in such a way that First Blood is only obtained if all the starting models in a unit are removed as casualties on the same turn (First Blood also uses "completely destroyed"? How about all those Tactical Objectives that call for the same (like Overwhelming Firepower)? I know I have never played like that.
Wait. "Completely destroyed" is defined in the BRB as "When all of the models in a unit are removed as casualties", not "When all of the original models in a unit are removed as casualties in the same turn". So, when the last model is removed, then the unit is "completely destroyed", regardless of how many models it started the turn with.
Does anyone play in such a way that First Blood is only obtained if all the starting models in a unit are removed form play on the same turn (First Blood also uses "completely destroyed"? How about all those Tactical Objectives that call for the same (like Overwhelming Firepower)? I know I have never played like that.
I never said they have to be destroyed in the same turn either for this rule or first blood. I just continued using two turns as a response to the prior example given by Nevelon about a unit being "mangled before" (although I didn't quote him so that may not be clear). As for completely destroyed, you're the one adding words because you're trying to change it to "when all of the CURRENT models in a unit are removed as casualties". The word completely in the rule has NO meaning or significance if you don't consider the original model count as the starting point. If you use any other starting point, it's an invalid addition to the rule and the word is superfluous. If it's not the starting strength of the unit, you "completely" destroy a unit EVERY time you fire and wipe out any unit because unit activation for assault and firing is sequential and NOT simultaneous. You fired on that 10 man marine squad with your chaos havocs and killed 8 of them? Cool. Next, your chosen unit fires at them and kills the last two... Technically, according to your interpretation, the target unit is completely destroyed because it "started" with two just before they fired and now has zero, even though the havoc squad did 80% of the casulaties. Chosing an arbitrary turn to start the tally is just as arbitrary as the example I just wrote. Neither one makes sense.
The rule simply says completely destroyed. A unit starts at whatever number of models it has on the army list (other than summoned units like demons) and is completely destroyed when it reaches 0 wounds/models. The progression from full to zero has to be from the same enemy unit source according to the rule. I'm not adding anything but simply reading the clearly written rule as it is actually written. I've already said that I see it as a reasonable change to disallow "friendly" caused casualties from precluding granting the bonus (like the gets hot example earlier) but having ANY other source of casualties from the opposing player that isn't from the unit trying to get the bonus is both against the RAW and the RAI of the rule. There is however no time limit though as one unit could take 3 turns or more to wipe out an enemy unit and get the rule as long as nothing else causes a casualty to that same enemy unit.
[...] You fired on that 10 man marine squad with your chaos havocs and killed 8 of them? Cool. Next, your chosen unit fires at them and kills the last two... Technically, according to your interpretation, the target unit is completely destroyed because it "started" with two just before they fired and now has zero, even though the havoc squad did 80% of the casulaties.
The unit is completely destroyed, because the BRB says that, since all the models were removed as casualties, it is considered to be completely destroyed. The rulebook doesn't care how or when the models were removed; just that they were all removed as casualties. Whether the unit started the turn with 10 or 1 is irrelevant, and that is what I was basing my interpretation on.
Now, I could, perhaps, see some reasoning behind your idea that all casualties must have been inflicted by the same unit for Thirst for Glory; however, I do not believe "a unit" unequivocally means "a single unit". But that is probably a discussion for another time.
* * *
As for the topic at hand: Is there any indication that the Supplement will include a formation for the other gods (Tzeentch, Nurgle and Slaanesh)?
The one power that gets me for a Rules as Written issue is the new psychic power for the Sorcerers.
There is one sentence in there, it says: "The unit cannot be locked in combat"
The way it is stated makes it sound like a requirement, like you may not target a unit already locked in combat. However, it doesnt say that. It says. The unit cannot be locked in combat. As though the power prevents that unit from being locked in combat for the duration of the power. So you can shoot with them, but then in the subsequent assault phase you may not charge them
I doubt anyone would play it that way, but on my first reading of it, I was a little confused.
So, Cabal in a unit of Nurgle Spawn running around trying to get Dev Cents to shoot their friends? Seems to be the best of this I've seen, the rest are meh.
Icculus wrote: The one power that gets me for a Rules as Written issue is the new psychic power for the Sorcerers.
There is one sentence in there, it says: "The unit cannot be locked in combat"
The way it is stated makes it sound like a requirement, like you may not target a unit already locked in combat. However, it doesnt say that. It says. The unit cannot be locked in combat. As though the power prevents that unit from being locked in combat for the duration of the power. So you can shoot with them, but then in the subsequent assault phase you may not charge them
I doubt anyone would play it that way, but on my first reading of it, I was a little confused.
The Cabal looks trolly as heck. I love the idea that taking a dakka-focused superheavy against anyone running that formation becomes very much a 'Are you SURE you want to do that?' scenario.
Robin5t wrote: The Cabal looks trolly as heck. I love the idea that taking a dakka-focused superheavy against anyone running that formation becomes very much a 'Are you SURE you want to do that?' scenario.
Robin5t wrote: The Cabal looks trolly as heck. I love the idea that taking a dakka-focused superheavy against anyone running that formation becomes very much a 'Are you SURE you want to do that?' scenario.
to those wondering about the Thirst for Glory and the requisite destruction of a unit, page 13 of the BRB spells it out for us. "When all of the models in a unit are removed as casualties, the unit is said to have been 'completely destroyed.'"
But honestly these are nice. Really inspires some cool army building ideas. Hoping for more of the same in Crimson Slaughter, and Angels of Death.
On the off hand chance, does anyone else feel like a kid after a nasty divorce being spoiled by their new step-daddy/mommy?
As a long time Chaos Space Marine player, I'm not particularly impressed by these formations.
The Tormented and the Hounds of Abaddon are kind of okay. But the rest are pretty poor formations in my opinion.
For example, The Chosen of Abaddon is kind of redundant, Fearless on your already Fearless Chaos Lord. And the boon table is garbage to begin with, so any new rules making you roll on it even more isn't an improvement.
Another missed opportunity for GW to help out CSM. Oh well, Mother always said that Patience is a virtue best learned by waiting.
Verviedi wrote: Well, my Kataphrons are no longer even going to be on the same table as that Sorceror formation. Too scary. Good job writing great rules, GW.
Dude, you gotta let us Chaos players have something...
That wasn't sarcasm. I like the rules. I'm just terrified.
That sort of thing is exactly what Chaos should be good at. Corrupting and debuffing the enemy.
Read as written, that's an interesting rule that follows the fluff and name but that I suspect will be misread. It says an enemy unit must be COMPLETELY destroyed by a UNIT (singular) from a Black Legion warband. So if any other unit kills even one model in that 40 ork boyz squad that another squad killed 39 in, neither unit can get the bonus for destroying the unit. I predict that folks will instead mistakenly add "in a turn" to it and assume that if they wipe out what is present at the start of a turn with a single unit then they deserve the bonus.
Absolutely not true. None of the maelstrom objectives work like this and they're worded in the exact same manner.
Im just happy to have SOMETHING for now. Means i will actually be running my CSM's again and not just running Daemons or KDK to stay in games. Some fun combos to mix and match in as well as some fun themed lists.
I see nothing on cultists, spawn, obliterators, PM, NM, or 1kSons. I will be disspointed if there are no other Cult detachments, because the khorne one looks nice.
Orock wrote: Wow seeing these really makes me mad they absolutley rushed the ork formations with no care involved at all. garbage tier compared to these.
GW seems to be moving in a decidedly positive direction as of late, and they are seemingly listening to the players more. I'm kind of hoping that Orks are going to get a main codex update soonish. I don't play Orks, but the only Ork player in my meta refuses to play his until he stands a chance. He's playing his SM until then. I miss my Ork targets :(.
pepsuber wrote: I see nothing on cultists, spawn, obliterators, PM, NM, or 1kSons. I will be disspointed if there are no other Cult detachments, because the khorne one looks nice.
Seeing how a box of 20 cultists, with an Aspiring Champion "to lead them" is coming out at the same time, I'd be highly surprised if there isn't some form of Cultist option in the new supplement. Even if it's just the ability to take an aspiring champion in a group of cultists, that would be huge. Most of the time my cultists run away rather than get killed outright, so having the higher leadership of a champion to anchor them (especially if VotLW is in effect) would be a huge boon. Not to mention the chance to hide a powerfist or a set of lightning claws in there.
Orock wrote: Wow seeing these really makes me mad they absolutley rushed the ork formations with no care involved at all. garbage tier compared to these.
Unfortunately, the big issue for the Ghazghkull book was there were formations already present in its first iteration, unlike Chaos who could really only go from up from where their abysmal place was in the 40K hierarchy. So sadly, WAAAAGH! Ghazghkull became more of a clean up job and consolidation rather than any real attempt to inject new or revised flavour into it unlike the chaos supplements who were before the 7th. ed formation days.
As far as I can see unfortunately we have to bank on the new ork codex making things and units right rather than the supplement itself which sucks.
pepsuber wrote: I see nothing on cultists, spawn, obliterators, PM, NM, or 1kSons. I will be disspointed if there are no other Cult detachments, because the khorne one looks nice.
Seeing how a box of 20 cultists, with an Aspiring Champion "to lead them" is coming out at the same time, I'd be highly surprised if there isn't some form of Cultist option in the new supplement. Even if it's just the ability to take an aspiring champion in a group of cultists, that would be huge. Most of the time my cultists run away rather than get killed outright, so having the higher leadership of a champion to anchor them (especially if VotLW is in effect) would be a huge boon. Not to mention the chance to hide a powerfist or a set of lightning claws in there.
Yeah I doubt they would give Khorne a formation and not the other 4 gods. + this is all just The Black Legion, Crimson Slaughter could have more awesome formations for us!
FoxPhoenix135 wrote: Seeing how a box of 20 cultists, with an Aspiring Champion "to lead them" is coming out at the same time, I'd be highly surprised if there isn't some form of Cultist option in the new supplement.
It could be tied to the Crimson Slaughter supplement, which already has cultist if I remember correctly.
FoxPhoenix135 wrote: Seeing how a box of 20 cultists, with an Aspiring Champion "to lead them" is coming out at the same time, I'd be highly surprised if there isn't some form of Cultist option in the new supplement.
It could be tied to the Crimson Slaughter supplement, which already has cultist if I remember correctly.
Or it could just be a bundle box.
Cultists make an appearance in KDK, Crimson Slaughter, and there's nothing stopping Black Legion from potentially getting a Cultist option in their Chaoticurion.
I never said it wasn't an option for a Black Legion list. I was pointing out that it could be for the Crimson Slaughter supplement and most likely for both..
Ghaz wrote: I never said it wasn't an option for a Black Legion list. I was pointing out that it could be for the Crimson Slaughter supplement and most likely for both..
Sorry if it came out kinda snipey, I was just trying to point out that sometimes a bundle box is just a bundle box.
We saw Orks and Tau both get a 'bundle box' out of the blue, and neither of those had formations attached to them as far as I'm aware.
Well, you're already wrong. And you posted this after evidence of your wrongness was available and in the thread already.
Show me again how these formations that are pretty much identical to Apocalypse and Apocalypse Reload for the most part address the balance issues of the CSM.
I am still very disappointed by this. But hey, knock yourself out.
pepsuber wrote: I see nothing on cultists, spawn, obliterators, PM, NM, or 1kSons. I will be disspointed if there are no other Cult detachments, because the khorne one looks nice.
And this is in a chaos undivided warband no less. I guess we can just chalk this up as GW being GW.
pepsuber wrote: I see nothing on cultists, spawn, obliterators, PM, NM, or 1kSons. I will be disspointed if there are no other Cult detachments, because the khorne one looks nice.
And this is in a chaos undivided warband no less. I guess we can just chalk this up as GW being GW.
And we can chalk comments like this up to Internet being Internet.
The book ain't out yet. These are SOME of the formations. Black Legion and Crimson Slaughter are both pre-Formationhammer books, so you can pretty much rest assured that this is not it.
pepsuber wrote: I see nothing on cultists, spawn, obliterators, PM, NM, or 1kSons. I will be disspointed if there are no other Cult detachments, because the khorne one looks nice.
And this is in a chaos undivided warband no less. I guess we can just chalk this up as GW being GW.
Or we can chalk it up to not seeing all of the rules yet.
Everyone freak out!!!
No seriously
There are not even enough formations leaked for GW to create a "codex detachment" (aka decurion detachment aka combi detachment). And we already know there is suppose to be one in this book. So let's just wait and see what else is included. There is also an entire Crimson slaughter book that hasn't leaked. So yea this is only a handful of leaks when we know a bunch more is coming. And even if the majority of the new formations suck the glory of formations is you pick and chose which you like and discard the rest. You can take a cabal from black legion supplement, a formation from Crimson slaughter, and a korne demon kin army with relics from all three and have a perfectly legal and likely competitive army. But let's just see what is in the books before we start screaming the sky is falling.
Sounds great, I am really excited about these supplement. I really loved to play my CSM but the last codex was really deceiving. With those rules (Thrist for glory, shroud of deceit, hounds of Abaddon...) they look really more interesting to play with.
pepsuber wrote: I see nothing on cultists, spawn, obliterators, PM, NM, or 1kSons. I will be disspointed if there are no other Cult detachments, because the khorne one looks nice.
And this is in a chaos undivided warband no less. I guess we can just chalk this up as GW being GW.
And we can chalk comments like this up to Internet being Internet.
The book ain't out yet. These are SOME of the formations. Black Legion and Crimson Slaughter are both pre-Formationhammer books, so you can pretty much rest assured that this is not it.
Maybe, hopefully, but I remain sceptical given how some of the leaks are from people owning the digital supplement which is already updated if I understand correctly. The only missing formation is abadon with bringers of despair iirc.
So that plus 3 more god themed formations plus the decurion and whatever formations are restricted to that? Seems unlikely to me, but god do I hope I'm wrong.
Wait... If I use shroud of deceit on a group of pathfinders who use their ML and target, say a Ghostkeel wing, then I use Shroud of deceit a second time on a Stormsurge, will he benefit from the markerlights? Do the Pathfinders benefit from a buffmander if he is in their squad?
Sorry if it came out kinda snipey, I was just trying to point out that sometimes a bundle box is just a bundle box.
We saw Orks and Tau both get a 'bundle box' out of the blue, and neither of those had formations attached to them as far as I'm aware.
The ork bundle "start collecting" has a formation.
Unfortunately, the big issue for the Ghazghkull book was there were formations already present in its first iteration, unlike Chaos who could really only go from up from where their abysmal place was in the 40K hierarchy. So sadly, WAAAAGH! Ghazghkull became more of a clean up job and consolidation rather than any real attempt to inject new or revised flavour into it unlike the chaos supplements who were before the 7th. ed formation days.
What does "revised chaos marine" mean? Are they just repackaging the 3 supplements out with a few added formations like the ork players got hosed= having to buy a new book with nothing really new?
Sorry if it came out kinda snipey, I was just trying to point out that sometimes a bundle box is just a bundle box.
We saw Orks and Tau both get a 'bundle box' out of the blue, and neither of those had formations attached to them as far as I'm aware.
The ork bundle "start collecting" has a formation.
Which isn't what I'm referring to when I say "bundle box". Should have specified a bit more I guess.
Warboss Gruk's Boss Mob is Gruk and Nobz for $50. Doesn't save you much(probably like $5-$10), but it saves you some.
The Tau Empire Coalition Command is an Ethereal on Hover Drone and a Commander for $60.
Sorry if it came out kinda snipey, I was just trying to point out that sometimes a bundle box is just a bundle box.
We saw Orks and Tau both get a 'bundle box' out of the blue, and neither of those had formations attached to them as far as I'm aware.
The ork bundle "start collecting" has a formation.
Which isn't what I'm referring to when I say "bundle box". Should have specified a bit more I guess.
Warboss Gruk's Boss Mob is Gruk and Nobz for $50. Doesn't save you much(probably like $5-$10), but it saves you some.
The Tau Empire Coalition Command is an Ethereal on Hover Drone and a Commander for $60.
So true it's not a start collecting box and it looks to be lacking heavy weapons so I wonder trying to move left over stock from last years box game? Still no idea why they made the Tau command box the get started is flat out better
Sorry if it came out kinda snipey, I was just trying to point out that sometimes a bundle box is just a bundle box.
We saw Orks and Tau both get a 'bundle box' out of the blue, and neither of those had formations attached to them as far as I'm aware.
The ork bundle "start collecting" has a formation.
Which isn't what I'm referring to when I say "bundle box". Should have specified a bit more I guess.
Warboss Gruk's Boss Mob is Gruk and Nobz for $50. Doesn't save you much(probably like $5-$10), but it saves you some.
The Tau Empire Coalition Command is an Ethereal on Hover Drone and a Commander for $60.
So true it's not a start collecting box and it looks to be lacking heavy weapons so I wonder trying to move left over stock from last years box game? Still no idea why they made the Tau command box the get started is flat out better
If I had to guess, it's because they planned on phasing out the Infiltration Cadre Burning Dawn and wanted there to remain two avenues for someone to get the Ethereal on Hover Drone.
Current information from those who have downloaded the digital updated Black Legion supplement (BL made a mistake and the file was available for several hours) is that there wont be a Decurion in it.
Warhams-77 wrote: Current information from those who have downloaded the digital updated Black Legion supplement (BL made a mistake and the file was available for several hours) is that there wont be a Decurion in it.
That matches what the White Dwarf says. It lists Formations, not a Detachment.
Honestly, I'd say that's a blessing rather than a curse. As great as some of the bonuses are...sometimes those things are just dumb to try to build towards.
Cheexsta, on 05 Apr 2016 - 1:55 PM, said:
I got it as well
What's been leaked so far is pretty much it, plus a formation for Abby and his Terminator retinue (+1WS and +1BS, reroll to Look Out Sir once per phase).
All the Warlord Traits and Artefacts are the same. There is no Decurion detachment.
Looks like they closed the leak on the Crimson Slaughter book though, so we might have to wait until the book actually comes out for that one
Gumo9, on 05 Apr 2016 - 8:58 PM, said:
Not noticed it said on this thread so far but with the Black Legion supplement you can choose artifacts from the supplement and C:CSM. Unlike the original where you only had access to the BL stuff
So many people trying to be downers. So a lot of the formations are not overwhelmingly awesome. I'm happy with what I've seen so far. It's fluffy, nothing seems over powered (though forcing enemy GMCs to blast their allies is hilarious), and it's at least a reason to knock the dust off the old army. I've been playing CSM since 4th, and this is a nice way to use a lot of models that I already have. Maybe it's just because I've been kicked around for so long, but this feels nice. Color me interested as to what's inside the Crimson Slaughter book as well. I'd bet on some powers that sacrifice cultists. There's also nothing stopping you from taking marks on the marines that in these formations. But I bet there's some stuff in there for each of the cult marines. As fluffy as this is, it seems a bit odd for Abbadon to not have them around.
Azreal13 wrote: I notice they're now in paperback, and at £20 are they actually now cheaper than the 1st Editions?
All the Paperbacks end up being cheaper than their hardback cousins.
Which is still odd to me, because they very, very deliberately moved away from Paperbacks with 6th edition....to now start erratically moving back when they have to reprint something. Iirc the switch back to Paperbacks became a thing with Shield of Baal and the End Times books - the Hardbacks sold out so quickly and demand was such that they announced they would reprint runs for people to be able to get them.
You know, because limited edition hardbacks had this habit of being bought up and flogged on ebay for the price of your kidney.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
gungo wrote: . And even if the majority of the new formations suck the glory of formations is you pick and chose which you like and discard the rest. You can take a cabal from black legion supplement, a formation from Crimson slaughter, and a korne demon kin army with relics from all three and have a perfectly legal and likely competitive army. But let's just see what is in the books before we start screaming the sky is falling.
So, you're telling me...
To field a legal and competitive CSM army I am required to have the following.
My Codex.
IA 13 (for Dreadclaws).
2 Supplements (for some Formations)
A dataslate (Belakor)
And another 2 Codexes that aren't piles of gak (KDK and Daemons) for allied detachments that aren't gak.
So, for a legal and competitive CSM army you're telling me it's acceptable to have to spend £182 in books alone....to do what every other army can do for £35 or so.
Hoo. When you put it that way it's definately hard to argue.
They release this at the same time as giving the loyalist even more buffs!
Ok so we don't know all the details but we do no that its two sperate releases that the loyalists get in one bundle!
I, like many, bought the original books and now to update would have to buy both again. They could have shoved all this in to one book for the same price as the snowflake brigade book!
Until we get an actual book with new sculpts then my Black Legion army will have no money or time spent on it.
Just ignore 'em. Being a downer hardly changes anything anyway. It would be interesting to see a release that wouldn't cause that. So far one has not existed. It doesn't matter if its powerful or underpowered. Spoiler: Such a release simply doesn't exist.
Personally I will make some use of the new supplements and build a fairly competitive Chaos force one way or another, there are a lot of books to look for options. I will do just fine, and I will have fun.
Icculus wrote: The one power that gets me for a Rules as Written issue is the new psychic power for the Sorcerers.
There is one sentence in there, it says: "The unit cannot be locked in combat"
The way it is stated makes it sound like a requirement, like you may not target a unit already locked in combat. However, it doesnt say that. It says. The unit cannot be locked in combat. As though the power prevents that unit from being locked in combat for the duration of the power. So you can shoot with them, but then in the subsequent assault phase you may not charge them
I doubt anyone would play it that way, but on my first reading of it, I was a little confused.
It hasn't even been released yet, and already, it needs a FAQ to clear up confusion!
Sometimes I love GW for the comedy value it provides
Just ignore 'em. Being a downer hardly changes anything anyway. It would be interesting to see a release that wouldn't cause that. So far one has not existed. It doesn't matter if its powerful or underpowered. Spoiler: Such a release simply doesn't exist.
Personally I will make some use of the new supplements and build a fairly competitive Chaos force one way or another, there are a lot of books to look for options. I will do just fine, and I will have fun.
Agreed, they really are damned if they do and damned if they don't with some people on here. I've seen a bunch of people moaning that it's not powerful enough, a bunch that it's too powerful and the orks and guard got left out as a result, a bunch saying it's just right, and the usual bunch saying it cost too much.
It's like frigging goldilocks and the three bears in here.
New rules can always be a nice thing, and we know CSM are in dire need. Nonetheless, I am a bit concerned because I doubt the data-slates and whatnot can address the basic problems of the codex like overpriced units, lack of synergy, CoS rule, lack of delivery systems.
Is not negativity for the sake of it - if your doctor says your diet lacks of vitamins, you do not fix the issue eating cheese and sausages. But let's see.
In all seriousness though, I wonder what the Crimson slaughter rules will be, Im pretty sure it will invovle cultists. They have their own box coming out and all.
Icculus wrote: The one power that gets me for a Rules as Written issue is the new psychic power for the Sorcerers.
There is one sentence in there, it says: "The unit cannot be locked in combat"
The way it is stated makes it sound like a requirement, like you may not target a unit already locked in combat. However, it doesnt say that. It says. The unit cannot be locked in combat. As though the power prevents that unit from being locked in combat for the duration of the power. So you can shoot with them, but then in the subsequent assault phase you may not charge them
I doubt anyone would play it that way, but on my first reading of it, I was a little confused.
It hasn't even been released yet, and already, it needs a FAQ to clear up confusion!
Sometimes I love GW for the comedy value it provides
I figured it was obvious that the reason it says "the unit cannot be locked in combat" is because the whole point of the ability is to resolve a shooting attack with an enemy unit, and you can't make shooting attacks when locked in combat.
People are trying too hard to make this gak confusing, and others are just rules lawyering the gak out of it to help ensure that whatever little buff CSM could have gotten from this is completely lost, and they stay right where they are: in the fething trash.
Kaiyanwang wrote: if your doctor says your diet lacks of vitamins, you do not fix the issue eating cheese and sausages. But let's see.
Speak for yourself! Sausages for the sausage God! Cheese for the cheese throne!
Pellagra, Overcosted sorcerer champions forced to challenge, Scurvy, Berserkers failing to be threatening in melee, Rickets, chaos marines seldom selected as troops in the CSM codex, Beri-Beri, over-representation of the mark of Nurgle because the others are nonfunctional unless a specific combo is deployed.
They release this at the same time as giving the loyalist even more buffs!
Ok so we don't know all the details but we do no that its two sperate releases that the loyalists get in one bundle!
I, like many, bought the original books and now to update would have to buy both again. They could have shoved all this in to one book for the same price as the snowflake brigade book!
Until we get an actual book with new sculpts then my Black Legion army will have no money or time spent on it.
Waaagh ghazskull was a free digital download update. I don't see how the chaos ones are any different.
On the flip side this is literally the third reprinting of some of the space marine rules with each iteration having something new forcing you to buy it again. They went from montka, to individual mini dexs, to a combined space marine dex. Now that's being screwed for someone who now ha to buy all 3.
Well at the very least my opponent has more to think about when facing my force, even if I ultimately choose not to take any of the new stuff.
That being said I like the Cabal's new power
The BLs artifacts were ok. So it's not a big thing that they remained the same. The +1 ML is ok, and sunburst is cool. Not perfect though. Still the cabal gives amazing potential.
I mean, it's nice to see they acknowledge that CSM still exist other than as a spooky punching bag, but my collection of power armor won't expand until Chaos gets an actual update.
But, the formations look okay for use. They don't look overpowered (like some) nor do they look like a cast for the broken leg that is the Codex. But we'll see how they play once its released.
Those sorcerers conclave look nasty, put them on bikes gives them 42" threat range without LOS. Shooting phase, turboboost them back out of LOS and/or range. Still might have to throw them into a unit of flesh hounds in case the opponent is very shooty or has drop pods.
Yea, the gear is exactly the same. I wonder if the Crimson Slaughter us going to package together the random dataslates from the last year and throw em in a book. And if the BL supp is anything to go by, the CS book will also have the exact same wargear.
The Forgefiend formation looks interesting but it's 445 points bare minimum (which is fine because you wantnothing more than 8 str8 shots at BS5 that reroll wounds and pens once a game). Forgefiends are still hideously overcosted.
The cabal power seems cool but situational. Seems to vary in effectiveness from "I'm playing against Guard" to "grav cents/warp spiders/stormsurge".
Debilitate wrote: Yea, the gear is exactly the same. I wonder if the Crimson Slaughter us going to package together the random dataslates from the last year and throw em in a book. And if the BL supp is anything to go by, the CS book will also have the exact same wargear.
The Forgefiend formation looks interesting but it's 445 points bare minimum (which is fine because you wantnothing more than 8 str8 shots at BS5 that reroll wounds and pens once a game). Forgefiends are still hideously overcosted.
The cabal power seems cool but situational. Seems to vary in effectiveness from "I'm playing against Guard" to "grav cents/warp spiders/stormsurge".
Not really that situational when you look at the current meta.....
Riptide wings, storm surges, WK, grav units... even if you take control a unit of scatbikes and use it to shoot at another is a win.
To me, the cabal power looks like the CSM codex has become self-aware. "Your codex sucks so bad, we'll let you give it a go with another armies unit".
On the absolutely overpowered other side.
You could bring in a cabal as allies of convenience and target one of your own units for top trolling.
Imagine: You're a Tau player and you've got a unit of 3 stormsurges. Well, for the low-low price of 250 points, you get 7 dice and a re-roll to give your entire stormsurge unit the opportunity to DOUBLE their firepower.
Looks like CSM might be the next hot gak after all.
DaPino wrote: To me, the cabal power looks like the CSM codex has become self-aware. "Your codex sucks so bad, we'll let you give it a go with another armies unit".
On the absolutely overpowered other side.
You could bring in a cabal as allies of convenience and target one of your own units for top trolling.
Imagine: You're a Tau player and you've got a unit of 3 stormsurges. Well, for the low-low price of 250 points, you get 7 dice and a re-roll to give your entire stormsurge unit the opportunity to DOUBLE their firepower.
Looks like CSM might be the next hot gak after all.
nudibranch wrote: Ohhh myyy, Shroud of Deceit... That's a nice Stormsurge you got over there...
Oh, you brought a Reaver Titan?
K den.
Shame this means there will probably be no Codex update this year.
Doesn't work on vehicles I'm afraid.
On the targeting your own models side, notice how the power specifies enemy unit. Any model on your side, no matter where they sit on the ally table, are considered friendly models.
DaPino wrote: To me, the cabal power looks like the CSM codex has become self-aware. "Your codex sucks so bad, we'll let you give it a go with another armies unit".
I thought the same thing. There is some "meta" level in this rules.
Looks like CSM might be the next hot gak after all.
Nah. Is like the helldrake when it was brand-new. Is a fig leaf while the rest is the naked truth. A truth that sucks.
You know, this is sad if you think about it. GW just threw a bone to CSM but refused to address any structural issue. And the price for this "bone" is two whole books. Unbelievable.
nudibranch wrote: Ohhh myyy, Shroud of Deceit... That's a nice Stormsurge you got over there...
Oh, you brought a Reaver Titan?
K den.
Shame this means there will probably be no Codex update this year.
Doesn't work on vehicles I'm afraid.
On the targeting your own models side, notice how the power specifies enemy unit. Any model on your side, no matter where they sit on the ally table, are considered friendly models.
Sadly, you seem to be right on the account of them not being able to cast the power. However, they are definitely NOT friendly models.
BRB Page 127:
Units from the same army that are Allies of convencience treat each other as 'enemy units' that cannot be shot at, charged or targeted by psychic abilties
Well the rules for the formation say "Run MOVE". And bikes can't "run" specifically; they can only turbo boost as their extra movement during the shooting phase. Maybe it isn't supposed to be interpreted that way.
BRB:
"Bikes and Jetbikes cannot Run, but can make a special Turbo-boost move instead of firing in their Shooting phase."
So it never says that anything that says you can make a 'Run move' (something which a Bike can't do) would allow them to Turbo Boost instead. The rule as written would not allow the Bikes to Turbo Boost.
I suppose you are correct. I associated the two because they're in the same phase, forgo shooting, and restrict assault. Shame. Turn 1 assault would have been glorious.
What about disembarking and running? Could you assault because you ran, even though you disembarked as well?
crimson_caesar wrote: Well the rules for the formation say "Run MOVE". And bikes can't "run" specifically; they can only turbo boost as their extra movement during the shooting phase. Maybe it isn't supposed to be interpreted that way.
BRB:
"Bikes and Jetbikes cannot Run, but can make a special Turbo-boost move instead of firing in their Shooting phase."
Yeah good luck convincing someone to let you do that. Orks have had a run then charge move for 2 editions. Nobody will let you do it, because bikes CANNOT run, only turbo boost. Otherwise ork bikes would be getting turn one or two charges every game.
Vash108 wrote: I am far from getting my hopes up for this. We have seen the same thing a few times like with Orks. It just a rules polish and not an update.
They just repackaged the Chaos Daemons codex as a collector's edition and sold it in super-limited quantity to celebrate 4 years of it not having an update-I mean the Curse of the Wulfen campaign. Just think---If I had a baby when that codex came out, he might even be learning to read right now.
But you can still run with jump infanterie so move 12 run d6 and then charge with a bit luck and reroll charge with the icone of korne (so you have the mark for free) and be able to charge with good dices.
And yes you can run and charge after comming out from an assault vehicule, you could like a landeraid but would cost a lot to try to get first turn charge.
taetrius67 wrote: But you can still run with jump infanterie so move 12 run d6 and then charge with a bit luck and reroll charge with the icone of korne (so you have the mark for free) and be able to charge with good dices.
And yes you can run and charge after comming out from an assault vehicule, you could like a landeraid but would cost a lot to try to get first turn charge.
It's the Icon of Wrath and it doesn't give you the Mark of Khorne for free, you actually NEED the Mark for the icon.
I doubt we'll be seeing formations for any gods other than Khorne since only berserkers are available in plastic. I doubt they'd bother with a formation consisting primarily of direct-only finecast.
They'll probably release a supplement for the Thousand Sons when their new plastics release so you have to buy another $33 book to play them to their fullest. They'll probably do the same for Slaanesh and Nurgle (perhaps they'll get new plastics next year).
taetrius67 wrote: But you can still run with jump infanterie so move 12 run d6 and then charge with a bit luck and reroll charge with the icone of korne (so you have the mark for free) and be able to charge with good dices.
And yes you can run and charge after comming out from an assault vehicule, you could like a landeraid but would cost a lot to try to get first turn charge.
It's the Icon of Wrath and it doesn't give you the Mark of Khorne for free, you actually NEED the Mark for the icon.
casvalremdeikun wrote: They'll probably release a supplement for the Thousand Sons when their new plastics release so you have to buy another $33 book to play them to their fullest. They'll probably do the same for Slaanesh and Nurgle (perhaps they'll get new plastics next year).
In 3rd I was able to do that with a single codex. One should explain me why this is supposed to be an improvement. And why should I give GW money for this, and just do not play older editions and do not update.
casvalremdeikun wrote: They'll probably release a supplement for the Thousand Sons when their new plastics release so you have to buy another $33 book to play them to their fullest. They'll probably do the same for Slaanesh and Nurgle (perhaps they'll get new plastics next year).
In 3rd I was able to do that with a single codex. One should explain me why this is supposed to be an improvement. And why should I give GW money for this, and just do not play older editions and do not update.
casvalremdeikun wrote: They'll probably release a supplement for the Thousand Sons when their new plastics release so you have to buy another $33 book to play them to their fullest. They'll probably do the same for Slaanesh and Nurgle (perhaps they'll get new plastics next year).
In 3rd I was able to do that with a single codex. One should explain me why this is supposed to be an improvement. And why should I give GW money for this, and just do not play older editions and do not update.
It isn't an improvement. It is BS. But it is what they are doing.
casvalremdeikun wrote: They'll probably release a supplement for the Thousand Sons when their new plastics release so you have to buy another $33 book to play them to their fullest. They'll probably do the same for Slaanesh and Nurgle (perhaps they'll get new plastics next year).
In 3rd I was able to do that with a single codex. One should explain me why this is supposed to be an improvement. And why should I give GW money for this, and just do not play older editions and do not update.
Just don't and be done with it, then?
Oh, I've been done long time ago with CSM. I left it in another country to friends (I shared many of them with one of these friends, and with the other is like to say I left them to my brother). But I still see them in play when I go back and I find what they have become outrageous.
casvalremdeikun wrote: They'll probably release a supplement for the Thousand Sons when their new plastics release so you have to buy another $33 book to play them to their fullest. They'll probably do the same for Slaanesh and Nurgle (perhaps they'll get new plastics next year).
In 3rd I was able to do that with a single codex. One should explain me why this is supposed to be an improvement. And why should I give GW money for this, and just do not play older editions and do not update.
It isn't an improvement. It is BS. But it is what they are doing.
One does wonder for how long can keep pulling this off
So... let's see. First of all, if you stick purely to these Black Legion formations, you miss out on like half of the units available to CSMs, including several of the better or at least less bad ones (cultists, spawn, obliterators, chaos knights, etc), so you're going to have to take a CAD anyway, and these formations will be supplemental to that rather than replacing it. With that in mind:
Black Legion Warband:
Spoiler:
as mentioned you're gonna take a CAD anyway, and most of the units in this formation would be better off just fielded as part of that CAD, since warlord trait re-roll and ObSec troops is better than double boons from challenges (something that hardly every happens to begin with) and kind of sort of but not really preferred enemy.
I like the unit selection here for fluff, but the benefits are too timid, and it wants to be a core formation in a decurion detachment that would actually grant access to the rest of the codex. As it is, this is a non-starter.
Chosen of Abaddon:
Spoiler:
With over-the-top costs to field and no benefits to speak of, this formation is just garbage.
Hounds of Abaddon:
Spoiler:
The first of these that's at least sort of interesting. Free MoK does a lot to offset the Vets tax, and the bonuses are actually halfway decent... except the best unit here, bikes, misses out on one of the main ones since they can't 'run', and the formation tacks an arbitrary prohibition against using the ability first turn that really feels just completely out of step with how alpha rushes have been handed out like candy lately, and the berzerker and CSM requirements are painful, as neither of those units is really going to contribute here.
I want to like this one, and it's not terrible exactly, but I just can't see it being good.
Daemon Engine Pack:
Spoiler:
Another kind of interesting formation. Does a lot for Forgefiends. Maulers are going to charge out of range, and WS4 doesn't do nearly as much for them as BS5 does for Forgefiends anyway. Probably not enough to make forgefiends actually good, though. Still, worth a try maybe, if you've got a couple dakkafiends lying around.
Cyclopia Cabal:
Spoiler:
The one everyone's talking about (and not just for a deliberately dumb rules misinterpretation that doesn't even make any sense because the 'duration of the power' is only the shooting attack made, even if it did prevent assaulting the target 'for the power's duration', it would still 'wear off' before your assault phase anyway.
That out of the way, I don't think this is quite as good as people are making out. IC costs stack up fast, and while chaos sorcerers LOOK cheap, that stops being the case when you take into account their various literally (vets) or functionally (psyker levels, familiars, maybe bikes, maybe inv saves) mandatory upgrades. Also, not every enemy has useful targets (TWC superfriends, Imperial Knights), and some of those that do are going to shut down the power as often as not anyway (Eldar). Nice against Tau, theoretically, until you remember that the power only seems impressive because their shooty units are blowing your entire army away to begin with, and while turning those stormsurges on their friends may be cathartic, it's not going to stop those same missiles and guns from wiping your expensive sorcerers out in the enemy's subsequent shooting phase.
Between the Dakkafiend formation, the cabal, and some FW options (rapier platforms, fire raptor, sicaran, chaos knight), you might be able to piece together a halfway decent ranged army that can reasonably make use of this power, but for the most part chaos marines are pushed into rush lists that try and hit melee as quickly as possible, which will render the power largely useless anyway.
Even then, though, this is an easy way to fit three undivided sorcerers into a CSM, Daemon, or KDK bound army, and they are one of the better IC options available to the faction, so it's probably a playable formation even if you aren't able to get much use out of shroud of deceit.
While not great, this formation is easily the best of the bunch here, much like the Last Memory, while not great, is easily the best Black Legion artefact, making Black Legion sorcerers something to look out for.
The Tormented:
Spoiler:
Due to the change in the artefact wording, Black Legion forces can now take artefacts from the parent codex as well as their supplement, meaning the prince in this formation can take the black mace, so that's nice.
As for the possessed... this is a significant upgrade to their offensive ability, don't get me wrong. Ws5, S5, I5, 2 attacks, rending, plus either AP3, Rend, or +1 attack (the +1 init is lost since the formations set init overwrites it, but still), makes for an actually quite hard hitting couple of units (min 2 for the formation).
As such, I really want to like this formation... but I just can't get past the delivery issue. With the vet tax, they cost a solid 28 points per model, but still die like basic CSMs to small arms fire. And these are pure melee infantry with no speed boost apart from fleet, and no access to dedicated assault transports.
In the end, I just can't see these possessed surviving long enough to make use of all that offensive melee power, and until the delivery issue is resolved, I just don't see this formation working.
Bringers of Despair:
Spoiler:
It's nice that they don't have to pay a giant pile of extra points for the upgrade, but even without it the terminators are still 34 points each with the vet tax before buying anything else, on top of Abaddon's colossal points cost, and like the possessed they are utterly without viable delivery options outside of the very overpriced (in both points and money) FW kharybdis.
If chaos had any access at all to homing beacons, or if the formation itself came with scatter mitigation, I'd be all about deep striking these guys. As it is, I think as with the tormented, the lack of viable delivery options kills this otherwise potentially interesting formation.
You can, but if you want access to half the CSM units, including many of the better ones, they aren't present in any detachments or formations other than a CAD. And since you're going to be playing at least one CAD anyway to get access to chaos knights, spawn, heldrakes, or whatever, then even if you want to field CSMs and Chosen and the like, you have to ask yourself if they're better off in the Black Legion Warband formation, or just putting them in the CAD, where the troop units will get ObSec, a much better bonus than 'some of the time preferred enemy' and double boon rools, imo.
Pretty Much agree with all of this. Though I'd like to add to some.
Black Legion Warband:
Spoiler:
as mentioned you've gotta take a CAD anyway, and most of the units in this formation would be better off just fielded as part of that CAD, since warlord trait re-roll and ObSec troops is better than double boons from challenges (something that hardly every happens to begin with) and kind of sort of but not really preferred enemy.
I like the unit selection here for fluff, but the benefits are too timid, and it wants to be a core formation in a decurion detachment that would actually grant access to the rest of the codex. As it is, this is a non-starter.
If you know you're going to play for kill points beforehand, then this'll at least do something. The CAD is virtually pointless in that case. It is a little better than two boons though, as it pretty much eliminates any chance to turn into a spawn or daemonprince. Which is something I definitely appreciate lol.
If it extended toward boon of mutation it might have been nice for those tzeentch generals out there.
Chosen of Abaddon:
Spoiler:
With over-the-top costs to field and no benefits to speak of, this formation is just garbage.
The only use for this that I can think of is hiding a sorcerer in a termie unit, which now have fearless rather than running away after on guy dies. Though that's not exactly a popular choice to begin with.
Hounds of Abaddon:
Spoiler:
The first of these that's at least sort of interesting. Free MoK does a lot to offset the Vets tax, and the bonuses are actually halfway decent... except the best unit here, bikes, misses out on one of the main ones since they can't 'run', and the formation tacks an arbitrary prohibition against using the ability first turn that really feels just completely out of step with how alpha rushes have been handed out like candy lately, and the berzerker and CSM requirements are painful, as neither of those units is really going to contribute here.
I want to like this one, and it's not terrible exactly, but I just can't see it being good.
Well, not exactly a compelling argument, but this one could make for some lulzy moments at least. Like strength 8 on any given unit on the charge (hammerhand), buff them with lucius Fabius (derp) and have a unit of 20 fearless marines hitting at S9 XD. Or S8/AP2 at initative on the lord. Or S10 powerfists. Fun times lol.
Bringers of Despair:
Spoiler:
It's nice that they don't have to pay a giant pile of extra points for the upgrade, but even without it the terminators are still 34 points each with the vet tax before buying anything else, on top of Abaddon's colossal points cost, and like the possessed they are utterly without viable delivery options outside of the very overpriced (in both points and money) FW kharybdis.
If chaos had any access at all to homing beacons, or if the formation itself came with scatter mitigation, I'd be all about deep striking these guys. As it is, I think as with the tormented, the lack of viable delivery options kills this otherwise potentially interesting formation.
Well there is the Spartan and this can be quite a nasty unit when facing space marines, but that's also the only time it would be remotely viable. Maybe in apocalypse games when you can use the key?
Well, not exactly a compelling argument, but this one could make for some lulzy moments at least. Like strength 8 on any given unit on the charge (hammerhand), buff them with lucius and have a unit of 20 fearless marines hitting at S9 XD. Or S8/AP2 at initative on the lord. Or S10 powerfists. Fun times lol.
I think you confused the rule wording. If you roll 8+ on the charge distance you get +1Str not Str8. Also every model from that formation is marked with Khorne so lucius can't join. And even if he did it'd be S5 hits.
Well, not exactly a compelling argument, but this one could make for some lulzy moments at least. Like strength 8 on any given unit on the charge (hammerhand), buff them with lucius and have a unit of 20 fearless marines hitting at S9 XD. Or S8/AP2 at initative on the lord. Or S10 powerfists. Fun times lol.
I think you confused the rule wording. If you roll 8+ on the charge distance you get +1Str not Str8. Also every model from that formation is marked with Khorne so lucius can't join. And even if he did it'd be S5 hits.
Yea, they get +1 strength from the formation and they get +1 strength from the icon through furious charge, then they get another +2 from hammer hand. And lucius Fabius doesn't need to join the squad he enhances, so that's anther +1. Though I never actually use him, could be wrong on that one.
Lucius upgrades a Chaos Marines squad to +1 strength and fearless iirc. doesn't have to ride with them. then hammerhand gives another +2 for 8 total strength.
It's nice that they're toning these formation bonuses down just in time for the CSM update. I eagerly await the SM formations. No doubt they'll be nice and balanced as well. Amirite?
Kanluwen wrote: Formations are a kind of Detachment. You can field as many Formations as you want without ever fielding a CAD or Decurion, per the BRB.
As long as it isn't a competitive event, sure. But most ITC events limit you to 3 detachments... so without a nested formation detachment (I.e. Gladius or decurion style) it would be hard to shoe-horn in formations, especially if you run double-CAD for more hell-turkey spam.
Well, it's only warp charge 1 and you'll have a familiar anyway, so perils shouldn't be that much of an issue. Not that's a good idea to begin with though. For the price of the sorceror you could pretty much get a laser destroyer. And they'll already be charging with Strength 6 without outside help.
They don't really need the extra strength, but I might do it once just the to see my opponent's face when a horde of puny csm are tearing apart his land raider XD.
Strength 9 with fabius, and they do if tehy're coming from 20 marines with 4 attacks each lol. Plus whatever is coming from the sorcerer, which could easily be strength 10 even.
Roknar wrote: Strength 9 withfabius, and they do if tehy're coming from 20 marines with 4 attacks each lol. Plus whatever is coming from the sorcerer, which could easily be strength 10 even
Let's make it even more lolz and say 20 Marines with S9 will pen/glance an Imp Knight to death....with ccw/BP...lol!
Haha, I like the sound of that No need to worry about stomps either, after eating the narrative of its lifetime I guess they took that story of Kharn defeating a knight in solo combat to heart XD
Picturing 20 marines in a bunker just sitting there, foaming out of their helmets waiting for the time to shine hahaha. Now I'm really excited to build an army around this formation lmao.
Problem is that 20 marines are going to be pretty easy to see coming, and will bet blown apart by that double battle cannon right quick.
Maybe with a kharybdis? If the transport can somehow survive the first turn in order to deliver them turn 2? Considering that it would be most of your army, that's maybe a bit of a stretch.
Well it would be mostly for fun so eh lol.I doubt you could make it actually work in this manner.
That said taking the hounds and a cabal, you can have a 20 man fearless blob (lord) in a spartan along with 3 sorcerers all in the same unit. With a blind axe and termie armour (cuz he desrves it ) that puts you in the ball park of 1.3k points. Unbound but hey . Not sure what a bunker with escape hatch costs, but maybe that works too if you deploy second.
Strength 10/AP2 daemon weapon....droool. Dat overkill.
Invisibility would take care of any blasts if you can roll it.
Remember the IA13 vehicle legacy that gives nearby units with the banner of khorne FNP.
Still probably not fast & maneuverable enough to work as that sort of death star, can't be everywhere at once like white scars bikers plus a bunch of TWCICs. And that spartan's not going to last very long given how most anti-tank weapons these days just ignore vehicle armor outright.
I don't know. It sounded amusing at first, but the more I think about it, the less workable it sounds, even as a lark.
Brillow80 wrote: How about doing it with 10-15 raptors. That helps mobility by a wide margin.
Too fragile, and it's not just speed that's important here, it's having that Hit & Run so that you can't get locked in unfavorable combats and can keep moving around the board on your turns, while staying locked in favorable combats during enemy shooting phases.
Cult of slaughter and brethren of the dark covenant both look really good. Zealot and FNP for EACH unit within 12" of the apostle? That's pretty crazy!
People don't realize how big a sleeper hit disciples of mannon really is.
Do yourself a favor and count how many times your opponent roll two dice in an 1850+ pt game. You're looking at like 50-100 times a game. This formation can be even more broken then summoning. And unlike the other formations is not reliant on a single apostle being sniped out to lose all the rules. You need the sorcerer on the table however you can hide that guy all day inside a building or something and just continue to spawn units over and over. The more points the game is the more useful that formation is.
gungo wrote: People don't realize how big a sleeper hit disciples of mannon really is.
Do yourself a favor and count how many times your opponent roll two dice in an 1850+ pt game. You're looking at like 50-100 times a game. This formation can be even more broken then summoning. And unlike the other formations is not reliant on a single apostle being sniped out to lose all the rules. You need the sorcerer on the table however you can hide that guy all day inside a building or something and just continue to spawn units over and over. The more points the game is the more useful that formation is.
gungo wrote: People don't realize how big a sleeper hit disciples of mannon really is.
Do yourself a favor and count how many times your opponent roll two dice in an 1850+ pt game. Your looking at like 50-100 times a game. This formation can be even more broken then summoning. And unlike the other formations is not reliant on a single apostle being sniped out to lose all the rules.
A big basis on luck, but yes it has a ton of potential. Though, you still need the sorc Alive to place the daemons.
gungo wrote: People don't realize how big a sleeper hit disciples of mannon really is.
Do yourself a favor and count how many times your opponent roll two dice in an 1850+ pt game. Your looking at like 50-100 times a game. This formation can be even more broken then summoning. And unlike the other formations is not reliant on a single apostle being sniped out to lose all the rules.
A big basis on luck, but yes it has a ton of potential. Though, you still need the sorc Alive to place the daemons.
Yea the apostle needs to be with his units (more then likely in the open) in the other formation and once he is sniped out you are back to basic units. The sorcerer you hide that dude in a building, ruins, vehicle, whatever and he just keeps spawning units on top of himself.
gungo wrote: People don't realize how big a sleeper hit disciples of mannon really is.
Do yourself a favor and count how many times your opponent roll two dice in an 1850+ pt game. You're looking at like 50-100 times a game. This formation can be even more broken then summoning. And unlike the other formations is not reliant on a single apostle being sniped out to lose all the rules. You need the sorcerer on the table however you can hide that guy all day inside a building or something and just continue to spawn units over and over. The more points the game is the more useful that formation is.
I assumed it was a one-time thing, maybe not.
Maybe you are right it can be read either way.
It's probably only one unit which makes that a bit less insane in large point games.
I might just convert myself 5x that Disciples of Mannon formation if ithe rumors are true.
This seems like a great addition for my radical inquisitor army. I already own a ton of daemons and sculpting possessed is one of the most fun things to do
Swampmist wrote: I think it's multiple, since it says "at any point in the game" and not "at anyone one time during the game." Could certainly go either way though.
Imagine if you take multiple of that Mannon formation. If your army makes the enemy take a lot of leadership and movement tests (which mine does), it's amazing if you have 3+ two-number combinations that summon daemons.
Unfortunately it doesn't make fear all that much better, since automatically passing ignores this. Still, I can see this being pretty popular. summoning demons in your turn via powers and continuing to summon in their turn with some of the summons being immune to being denied.
Seems strange that the Black Legion ones are more useful.
I rather have rending than 2/3 useless traits in CC. Once there tu still only have 2 attacks base at str 5 with a single close combat weapon. Watch out!
Seems strange that the Black Legion ones are more useful.
I rather have rending than 2/3 useless traits in CC. Once there tu still only have 2 attacks base at str 5 with a single close combat weapon. Watch out!
The Black Legion have been around for longer and are more experienced, so it makes sense that their possessed are a bit more badass.
The Black Legion Possessed are MUCH worse, even with Rending.
Crimson Slaughter Possessed only have ways to make it to combat a bit easier. You got Shrouding, becoming a Beast, and getting a 3++. On top of Fleet with that, it can be a plausible T2 charge (granted, if your opponent is terrible). Possessed are a tarpit kinda unit. I don't need them to be entirely killy as they're Fearless.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: The Black Legion Possessed are MUCH worse, even with Rending.
Crimson Slaughter Possessed only have ways to make it to combat a bit easier. You got Shrouding, becoming a Beast, and getting a 3++. On top of Fleet with that, it can be a plausible T2 charge (granted, if your opponent is terrible). Possessed are a tarpit kinda unit. I don't need them to be entirely killy as they're Fearless.
That depends on what you want to use them for. As tarpits? Yea sure, the CS are better.
For those few of us who consider the lack of grenades not a deal breaker, the Black legion ones hit a lot harder in combat. With rending, higher init, higher WS and every mutation causing more wounds in some form or another . All the crimson slaughter guys get once they actually make it into combat is more survivability and you're not going to rely on a 1 in 3 chance to make them get there, so you're putting them in a vehicle either way.
The best formation is the Brethren of the Dark Covenant. You get a large AOE army buff on flexible units. CSM biggest weakness is the lack of ATSKNF, granting them zealot is a big boon. It does put a major bullseye on that apostle however, so you need some plan to hide him. Maybe hide him in a cultist blob with multiple onion like cultist rings acting as bubble wrap from Cult of Slaughter.
Disciples of Mannon is pretty terrible IMHO however, kind of curious why everyones attention so far has been here. In the pop out text it clearly only works one time, so basically you are randomly waiting and hoping for your opponent to roll your number on EXACTLY two dice, something they can actively avoid (roll one less or one more for anything other then LD) if their army is fearless heaven help you.
Worse yet Disciples of Mannon requires a tax of one of the worst and priciest units in the CSM codex, possessed. I feel like your over paying for a tax in order to randomly get something else, you can't even choose what demon type! Just take the sorcerer formation from BL supplement and summon your demons starting turn1 and pick the ones you want lol.
.. why do these all have possessed? I'm actually upset.
It's kind of the whole shtick for the Crimson Slaughter. It would be like questioning the requirement of Plague marines from formations in a hypothetical Death Guard supplement.
You're missing the "Red Onslaught", if you have the other six formations then you subtract 1 leadership from each unit in the enemy army and you're destroyed possessed units can be resummoned on a 4+
I love the fact it states you can use an detachment or formation and make it a crimson slaughter one, is that also in the black legion supplement?
Hmmm... I don't know, these Crimson Slaughter formations are very reliant on how powerful the codex's possessed are. If buff their table, I think some these would be viable. Otherwise, they actually seem kind of lukewarm.
1. Lords of Slaughter:
Assuming the Balestar of Mannon is the same, I don't see that much that this formation brings to the table? Perhaps if the artifacts are new, then maybe it would excellent to trick out your chaos lord and give him and his unit hatred. Otherwise, it's a minor buff and you need to buy possessed.
2. Cult of Slaughter
Look, even if you beef out your cultists, they do practically nothing. Main way to play these guys is as objective takers that are more resilient. A fine unit, but it doesn't bring much power to the CSM table.
3. Brethren of the Dark Covenant
I like the idea of giving the CSM the mark of Nurgle, and bam you have cheaper Plague Marines... However, you cannot overlook you still have to I buy the damn possessed and apostle. The Apostle kind of sucks compared to our other options, let's face it! Hopefully there's a sweet relic for them.
4. Disciples of Mannon
Someone did post a picture that specifically states 'the FIRST" time the result is rolled, summon daemons. So KDK and maelific do this so much better. No possessed and more daemons.
5. Ravagers
It's like a mini version of the Lords of Slaughter, except you don't have to pass a psychic test and you have to take chosen! Wow! Too bad it's hard to get possessed to accomplish anything before they get blown to bits unless they're in a Land Raider.
If possessed get a big buff and become viable, I'd give these formations another look. Otherwise, they're mediocre.
You're missing the "Red Onslaught", if you have the other six formations then you subtract 1 leadership from each unit in the enemy army and you're destroyed possessed units can be resummoned on a 4+
I love the fact it states you can use an detachment or formation and make it a crimson slaughter one, is that also in the black legion supplement?
What is this? How would "stealing" formations even work? This makes no sense to me.
You're missing the "Red Onslaught", if you have the other six formations then you subtract 1 leadership from each unit in the enemy army and you're destroyed possessed units can be resummoned on a 4+
I love the fact it states you can use an detachment or formation and make it a crimson slaughter one, is that also in the black legion supplement?
What is this? How would "stealing" formations even work? This makes no sense to me.
Sorry missed out the CSM bit, you can make any CSM detachment or formation a Crimson Slaughter one, so you can use the warlord traits relics and apply CS rules. Seemed like a bit of future proofing to me and hints that the CSM is due a book with a detachment innit.
Shame about the actual wording on the mammon formation. Looked like a potential big deal when we thought it might be triggerable multiple times per game. 1/games, it's kind of forgettable.
As for why possessed: its the CS's main fluff thing is why. And CS do get an alternate possessed table, which makes them more likely to see combat (2/3 more survivable, 1/3 faster), though they don't hit as hard as regular possessed (and much less hard than BL formation possessed) once they get there.
I don't really fault the unit selections here, honestly, but as with the BL formations, the benefits are mostly too timid to get over the hump of poor design and points inefficiency baked into most of these units.
Off topic wish listing:
Spoiler:
If GW wants people to field more possessed, they should just make possessed good. I'd recommend looking at Wulfen or Death Company for ideas. Otherwise the main issues with CSMs are delivery (lots of melee infantry, little to nothing in assault transports; some deep strikers but little to nothing in scatter mitigation, limited access to rules like infiltrate, scout, etc), and points ineficiency (pay too much base compared to loyalists with a ton of free upgrades, the upgrades chaos does have access to are less good and cost even more points on top).
These ARE things formations COULD fix (terminator formations that don't scatter on deep strike, formations that grant deployment options or extra speed or make upgrades free - the BL khorne formation was a step in that direction), but...
These are problems that really want a real codex update to look at instead (fix base points values, re-assess self defeating rules concepts, add back homing beacon icons & variable vet upgrades including option to infiltrate some units, etc), as well as some new releases in the transport/delivery department (daemonic assault-ramp rhino variant, bigger capacity land raider variant, drop pod with a spikey bit sprue in the box, etc).
bleh, over a decade of this mess and I can STILL get sucked into CSM wish listing so easily..
If loyalists can get free transports, you'd think Black Legion could at least get free vets, right? A rule that had no business costing points in the first place? But no. Oh, well.
I'm calling it right now. WAY stop many possessed in these formations to NOT be coming out with new possessed models soon. Plus they went permanently out of stock.
The purpose of CSM is to run across the board getting shot up and then lose in combat (preferably in challenges to make the heroes' victory more cinematic). They'll never get good rules as long as the studio views them as a target practice army.
the_scotsman wrote: I'm calling it right now. WAY stop many possessed in these formations to NOT be coming out with new possessed models soon. Plus they went permanently out of stock.
Considering they just printed an AoS book with datasheets for the Bretonnian range which went Last chance to buy BEFORE its release...no, not likely.
the_scotsman wrote: I'm calling it right now. WAY stop many possessed in these formations to NOT be coming out with new possessed models soon. Plus they went permanently out of stock.
No. There are a lot of possessed formations in the crimson slaughter book because Crimson Slaughter's whole deal is possessed. There is all of one possessed formation in the BL book, because they also have fluff tying them to possessed.
If these books were including possessed formations to push a new possessed box, then that possessed box would have come out concurrently with the new supplements, so that they could have pretty pictures of the new models they were supposedly pushing.
Someone send me a link to where I can see this stuff. Do it by pm though. Thanks. Never mind seen them. They look good. Don't know if this makes them tournament winning worthy but its certainly a big boost.
I'm not sure I'd call it a 'big' boost, but it was something, when nothing was expected, so there's only so bitter one can be. Still, it's hard to keep a dispassionate mind about it when at the same time loyalists are getting so much more with their unexpected new supplement, including access to 30k stuff from the battle for calth.
A bit annoying that it's only going to loyalists, when fluff-wise chaos has more access to old 30k gear in the modern era, and word bearers were in that box, too. But whatever.
Hmmmm chaos is too popular and integral to be left for long like Sisters.
There is a theory they want to get rid of Slaanesh from the setting like they did with Age of Sigmar. All of these stories are building up to a large story event.
Allegedly there is going to be a Dark Eldar campaign book or something this year and for a long time there are hints that the Eldar race as a whole have found a way to kill Slaanesh. however the problem with this is their own god would need to be placed there. I think it was the Eldar God of death or something.
Anyways so if that happens which I think is likely then we have to see Chaos revised completely. We also know from reports that Chaos Marines are being worked on and that they are trying to work on whatever the big event for them it likely next year. I think the Eldar god of death being bad for everybody would be a great thing to revitalize Chaos. It lets them move Slaanesh out of the limelight. It lets them pour money into Chaos line to update it and get rid of some old kits and add new stuff for the new god.
This is just my personal theory from information I've gathered. It is based on what people say is solid rumors. Barring the Dark Eldar ones which were rated as fairly poor.
If this exact chain of events doesn't happen something similar enough will happen. Since this is a big task it's taking a long time to get all of the preparation work done.
Malisteen wrote: I'm not sure I'd call it a 'big' boost, but it was something, when nothing was expected, so there's only so bitter one can be. Still, it's hard to keep a dispassionate mind about it when at the same time loyalists are getting so much more with their unexpected new supplement, including access to 30k stuff from the battle for calth.
A bit annoying that it's only going to loyalists, when fluff-wise chaos has more access to old 30k gear in the modern era, and word bearers were in that box, too. But whatever.
30K stuff for Chaos would make sense too, but I'd expect it in a new CSM codex, rather than in either BL or CS supplements. The new SM supplement is basically DLC for the SM codex, while the two chaos ones are specific forces.
I don't completely understand the Red Onslaught Designer's Note:
What does it mean exactly, it says "both formations" but there are 6 formations in it. Which 2 is it referring to, or just the Red Onslaught and whichever inherent detachment?
Does it mean that all Possessed from all those formations come back on a 4+ with Deep Strike and the enemy army has -1LD?
Gamgee wrote: Hmmmm chaos is too popular and integral to be left for long like Sisters.
There is a theory they want to get rid of Slaanesh from the setting like they did with Age of Sigmar. All of these stories are building up to a large story event.
Allegedly there is going to be a Dark Eldar campaign book or something this year and for a long time there are hints that the Eldar race as a whole have found a way to kill Slaanesh. however the problem with this is their own god would need to be placed there. I think it was the Eldar God of death or something.
Anyways so if that happens which I think is likely then we have to see Chaos revised completely. We also know from reports that Chaos Marines are being worked on and that they are trying to work on whatever the big event for them it likely next year. I think the Eldar god of death being bad for everybody would be a great thing to revitalize Chaos. It lets them move Slaanesh out of the limelight. It lets them pour money into Chaos line to update it and get rid of some old kits and add new stuff for the new god.
This is just my personal theory from information I've gathered. It is based on what people say is solid rumors. Barring the Dark Eldar ones which were rated as fairly poor.
If this exact chain of events doesn't happen something similar enough will happen. Since this is a big task it's taking a long time to get all of the preparation work done.
You clearly haven't been paying attention. Slaanesh is still a part of AoS.
the_scotsman wrote: I'm calling it right now. WAY stop many possessed in these formations to NOT be coming out with new possessed models soon. Plus they went permanently out of stock.
Considering they just printed an AoS book with datasheets for the Bretonnian range which went Last chance to buy BEFORE its release...no, not likely.
Gamgee wrote: Hmmmm chaos is too popular and integral to be left for long like Sisters.
There is a theory they want to get rid of Slaanesh from the setting like they did with Age of Sigmar. All of these stories are building up to a large story event.
Allegedly there is going to be a Dark Eldar campaign book or something this year and for a long time there are hints that the Eldar race as a whole have found a way to kill Slaanesh. however the problem with this is their own god would need to be placed there. I think it was the Eldar God of death or something.
Anyways so if that happens which I think is likely then we have to see Chaos revised completely. We also know from reports that Chaos Marines are being worked on and that they are trying to work on whatever the big event for them it likely next year. I think the Eldar god of death being bad for everybody would be a great thing to revitalize Chaos. It lets them move Slaanesh out of the limelight. It lets them pour money into Chaos line to update it and get rid of some old kits and add new stuff for the new god.
This is just my personal theory from information I've gathered. It is based on what people say is solid rumors. Barring the Dark Eldar ones which were rated as fairly poor.
If this exact chain of events doesn't happen something similar enough will happen. Since this is a big task it's taking a long time to get all of the preparation work done.
You clearly haven't been paying attention. Slaanesh is still a part of AoS.
I'd go further and say there is no real way of eliminating slaanesh from 40k without detonating the whole setting. The whole Eye of Terror and emergence of chaos was during the birth of slaanesh. It was Slaanesh pleasure cabals that roped good 'Ol Horace into their side as well if I remember correctly. Not to mention the whole eldar line has been modeled around their fate with "she who thirsts."
Cute story, but I don't really see why you'd spread such a s"theory." It will just snowball like a game of telephone and upset a lot of collectors.
Gamgee wrote: Hmmmm chaos is too popular and integral to be left for long like Sisters.
There is a theory they want to get rid of Slaanesh from the setting like they did with Age of Sigmar. All of these stories are building up to a large story event.
Allegedly there is going to be a Dark Eldar campaign book or something this year and for a long time there are hints that the Eldar race as a whole have found a way to kill Slaanesh. however the problem with this is their own god would need to be placed there. I think it was the Eldar God of death or something.
Anyways so if that happens which I think is likely then we have to see Chaos revised completely. We also know from reports that Chaos Marines are being worked on and that they are trying to work on whatever the big event for them it likely next year. I think the Eldar god of death being bad for everybody would be a great thing to revitalize Chaos. It lets them move Slaanesh out of the limelight. It lets them pour money into Chaos line to update it and get rid of some old kits and add new stuff for the new god.
This is just my personal theory from information I've gathered. It is based on what people say is solid rumors. Barring the Dark Eldar ones which were rated as fairly poor.
If this exact chain of events doesn't happen something similar enough will happen. Since this is a big task it's taking a long time to get all of the preparation work done.
You clearly haven't been paying attention. Slaanesh is still a part of AoS.
I'd go further and say there is no real way of eliminating slaanesh from 40k without detonating the whole setting. The whole Eye of Terror and emergence of chaos was during the birth of slaanesh. It was Slaanesh pleasure cabals that roped good 'Ol Horace into their side as well if I remember correctly. Not to mention the whole eldar line has been modeled around their fate with "she who thirsts."
Cute story, but I don't really see why you'd spread such a s"theory." It will just snowball like a game of telephone and upset a lot of collectors.
That's all fine and dandy until one of GW's execs goes "yeah, I don't like rapists in our product line, lets just retcon slaanesh", and then just dumps the whole mess on some poor overworked author.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: Maybe they won't remove Slaanesh from the setting, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if they never released another new Slaanesh miniature.
I wouldn't be surprised if any/all of the following happened:
-No new CSM Codex this year
-No new CSM codex this edition
-Next CSM codex contains nerfs
-CSM model lines are not updated, just added to
-CSM model lines aren't even added to
-CSM remains incapable of fielding effective unit combinations
-SM get an update to directly counter the upcoming CSM supplement update
-CSM gets pushed further into the back of the fluff
-Various Chaossy things get retconned
-Some antsy GW exec misguidedly tries to boost CSM sales by forcing an overworked ultrasmurf fanboy author to write a really crappy book about CSM -8th Edition is even moar shooty/psychic/synergy focused
-8E CSM codex maintains pre-5E paradigms
-8E CSM codex pretends that new gakky daemon engines are still the next best thing
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: Maybe they won't remove Slaanesh from the setting, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if they never released another new Slaanesh miniature.
I wouldn't be surprised if any/all of the following happened:
-No new CSM Codex this year
-No new CSM codex this edition
-Next CSM codex contains nerfs
-CSM model lines are not updated, just added to
-CSM model lines aren't even added to
-CSM remains incapable of fielding effective unit combinations
-SM get an update to directly counter the upcoming CSM supplement update
-CSM gets pushed further into the back of the fluff
-Various Chaossy things get retconned
-Some antsy GW exec misguidedly tries to boost CSM sales by forcing an overworked ultrasmurf fanboy author to write a really crappy book about CSM -8th Edition is even moar shooty/psychic/synergy focused
-8E CSM codex maintains pre-5E paradigms
-8E CSM codex pretends that new gakky daemon engines are still the next best thing
It's pretty depressing that there's nothing there I can say is definitely an exaggeration.
Selym wrote: That's all fine and dandy until one of GW's execs goes "yeah, I don't like rapists in our product line, lets just retcon slaanesh", and then just dumps the whole mess on some poor overworked author.
Well, it happened with the Fimir, but at least they eventually came back
I think the designers note for the Red Onslaught means you don't need to take 2 Chosen, 4 Possessed, 2 Terminators, 4 Cultists, raptors, Landraider, helbrute, 2 apostles and 2 CSM minumum...
I think it is saying the same Cultists from, let's say, the Cult of Slaughter can also be the Cultists in Kranons Helguard....
I expect when the codex gets updated baleflamer will go to AP4 and get a pt increase. Obliterators will randomly generate their weapons each turn from a D6 table. All vehicles get daemonic possession standard (pts for the upgrade are included in the increased base cost). No other changes.
Gamgee wrote: Hmmmm chaos is too popular and integral to be left for long like Sisters.
There is a theory they want to get rid of Slaanesh from the setting like they did with Age of Sigmar. All of these stories are building up to a large story event.
Allegedly there is going to be a Dark Eldar campaign book or something this year and for a long time there are hints that the Eldar race as a whole have found a way to kill Slaanesh. however the problem with this is their own god would need to be placed there. I think it was the Eldar God of death or something.
Anyways so if that happens which I think is likely then we have to see Chaos revised completely. We also know from reports that Chaos Marines are being worked on and that they are trying to work on whatever the big event for them it likely next year. I think the Eldar god of death being bad for everybody would be a great thing to revitalize Chaos. It lets them move Slaanesh out of the limelight. It lets them pour money into Chaos line to update it and get rid of some old kits and add new stuff for the new god.
This is just my personal theory from information I've gathered. It is based on what people say is solid rumors. Barring the Dark Eldar ones which were rated as fairly poor.
If this exact chain of events doesn't happen something similar enough will happen. Since this is a big task it's taking a long time to get all of the preparation work done.
You clearly haven't been paying attention. Slaanesh is still a part of AoS.
I'd go further and say there is no real way of eliminating slaanesh from 40k without detonating the whole setting. The whole Eye of Terror and emergence of chaos was during the birth of slaanesh. It was Slaanesh pleasure cabals that roped good 'Ol Horace into their side as well if I remember correctly. Not to mention the whole eldar line has been modeled around their fate with "she who thirsts."
Cute story, but I don't really see why you'd spread such a s"theory." It will just snowball like a game of telephone and upset a lot of collectors.
That's all fine and dandy until one of GW's execs goes "yeah, I don't like rapists in our product line, lets just retcon slaanesh", and then just dumps the whole mess on some poor overworked author.
I fail to see what makes slaanesh a cult of rapists. They have breasts and cod pieces, oh no think of the children! Show me where in the fluff they have ever raped anything? I am not trying to be inflammatory btw, if it exists I would like to be aware.
Us propa nerds know that Slaanesh has other facets, and is just hard to represent. But a GW exec probably just looks at our dick references and thinks "waddabout tha children".
We all know GW really wants to sell to younger players. The only thing stopping them from really going that way is that entry prices for a 40k army are greater than a kid's yearly allowance.
And GW will never drop prices.
Dan Abnett, I think it was Sabbat Martyr in the gaunt's ghost series is a pretty clear example on that one, complete with mutated hentai love-fests of dubious consent.
Runic wrote: I don't completely understand the Red Onslaught Designer's Note:
What does it mean exactly, it says "both formations" but there are 6 formations in it. Which 2 is it referring to, or just the Red Onslaught and whichever inherent detachment?
Does it mean that all Possessed from all those formations come back on a 4+ with Deep Strike and the enemy army has -1LD?
For confusing text I offer"UNITS OF POSSESSED HAVE THE TROOPS BATTLEFIELD ROLE instead of elites" I might just be daft but that seems to be a weird way to word the units counts as troops.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
crimson_caesar wrote: Has anyone heard anything about CS relics? Are they the same? Also what about the possessed table?
They appear to be the same ones reading my copy. The Possesed seem to give their shrouded to any vehicle they are I , not sure if this was in the originals?
what do you guys use to read epubs while on a PC? i was never a fan of GW's formatting, it's kind of derpy as is, but the new version is basically unreadable on my computer with the nook and book bazaar apps (win10). they said it's 'enhanced for tablets but still readable on a pc' and i that's true. as long as i want to read 4 words at a time, from across the room.
gigasnail wrote: what do you guys use to read epubs while on a PC? i was never a fan of GW's formatting, it's kind of derpy as is, but the new version is basically unreadable on my computer with the nook and book bazaar apps (win10). they said it's 'enhanced for tablets but still readable on a pc' and i that's true. as long as i want to read 4 words at a time, from across the room.
I'm still a little annoyed that the Crimson Slaughter rules would represent a Word Bearer army almost perfectly. I know they've been good stand ins for Word Bearers since they came out but these new formations scream Word Bearers so much. Lots of Dark Apostles, Possessed and Deamons and Cultists.
I guess an original Legion is just stuck as stand ins for a recent Chapter.
gigasnail wrote: what do you guys use to read epubs while on a PC? i was never a fan of GW's formatting, it's kind of derpy as is, but the new version is basically unreadable on my computer with the nook and book bazaar apps (win10). they said it's 'enhanced for tablets but still readable on a pc' and i that's true. as long as i want to read 4 words at a time, from across the room.
gigasnail wrote: what do you guys use to read epubs while on a PC? i was never a fan of GW's formatting, it's kind of derpy as is, but the new version is basically unreadable on my computer with the nook and book bazaar apps (win10). they said it's 'enhanced for tablets but still readable on a pc' and i that's true. as long as i want to read 4 words at a time, from across the room.
help me, internet.
I personally use the Chrome Simple EPUB Reader, and it seems to work fine, though with GW's files the titles and headings of pages can sometimes end up squished together with little spacing between the letters.
Nightlord1987 wrote: I think the designers note for the Red Onslaught means you don't need to take 2 Chosen, 4 Possessed, 2 Terminators, 4 Cultists, raptors, Landraider, helbrute, 2 apostles and 2 CSM minumum...
I think it is saying the same Cultists from, let's say, the Cult of Slaughter can also be the Cultists in Kranons Helguard....
I hope.
Now that I read it again, I think that's what it means aswell.
So the minimum for the Red Onslaught isn't the 2050ish points they would require separately, but instead the choices fill up multilple formations simultaneously.
It makes sense, since it's the same units repeated again and again in each formation.
If so, it might actually be semi-competitive as a whole.
Thanatos73 wrote: I'm still a little annoyed that the Crimson Slaughter rules would represent a Word Bearer army almost perfectly. I know they've been good stand ins for Word Bearers since they came out but these new formations scream Word Bearers so much. Lots of Dark Apostles, Possessed and Deamons and Cultists.
I guess an original Legion is just stuck as stand ins for a recent Chapter.
Maybe the intern they dumped this on while the regular studio was busy writing and not-playtesting the 28 new SM psychic powers was not aware there's more than one kind of red CSM?
Some of these seem pretty cool. Not great, but fun. Anyone think we'll actually see some CSM at the LVO now, or is this just more cool toys for the casual crowd?
After reading the Cabal listing (other sorcerers within 12") does this mean the sorcerers don't need to be placed in the same unit and won't suffer from brotherhood of psyker issues? If they can be placed in different units like the librarius conclave I can see some real benefits here.
We live in a world where Space Marines have rules and formations for a dozen Chapters, and Chaos Space Marines have no Legion rules (aside from the most vanilla of Legions) and have had two supplement books for the "Who?" of Chaos Warbands.
The Cult of Slaughter could pair okay with Typhus - he grants Zombie Cultists to the entire army, not his detachment, and having a bunch of Cultists with Fearless and FNP that also regain lost models would make an alright tarpit or objective campers.
H.B.M.C. wrote: We live in a world where Space Marines have rules and formations for a dozen Chapters, and Chaos Space Marines have no Legion rules (aside from the most vanilla of Legions) and have had two supplement books for the "Who?" of Chaos Warbands.
Not to mention that said "who" is so close to word bearers that I'm not sure how they would do an actual word bearers supplement. The only thing I can think of is more objective defiling like the dameons got?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: How is that disappointing? The Crimson Slaughter artifacts are excellent.
Yeah they are. Idk, something fresh would have been cool. Maybe not replace all the artifacts, but a new extra one would've been interesting.
The artifacts is such big part of the CS flavour because of the limited extra rules in the original CS book.
They could probably have taken the artifact buffs and made them in to formation bonuses or warlord traits, just because they are so linked to what typical CS armies are.
But, yeah, I cant say its dissapointing to see one of the good things about chaos actually stay in shape.
Nightlord1987 wrote: I think the designers note for the Red Onslaught means you don't need to take 2 Chosen, 4 Possessed, 2 Terminators, 4 Cultists, raptors, Landraider, helbrute, 2 apostles and 2 CSM minumum...
I think it is saying the same Cultists from, let's say, the Cult of Slaughter can also be the Cultists in Kranons Helguard....
I hope.
Well i honestly don't think this is the case. The note just states that each unit is part of the main formation "The Red Onslaught" and the sub formation it belongs to. The Dark Apostle which belongs to "Cult of Slaughter" is also part of "The Red Onslaught". You still have to play 2050+ points, which is BS.
In the age of formation detachments it should work like this:
The Red Onslaugth Detachment
Mandatory: 1 Kranons Helguard
Optional: 1 - 5 of the following...
Rules:
Enemy units get -1 Ld.
Each turn roll a d6, on 4+ return all units of Possessed to the game, which have been completely destroyed. They no longer count as part of a formation, but can still come back.
The formations are still pretty solid on their own, as most of them are small and can be fiddled into a list quite easily, but still offer nice buffs.
Still would only bring for friendly games but kranons helguard has potential with stubborn mitigating CSMs naturally horrific leadership issues. Combine with a gorepack and it might be serviceable list.
The thing that gets me about the Cabal formation that everyone is excited about is that there was a telepathy spell that was in the BRB of 6th edition that allowed you to make enemy units shoot eachother. If I remember right, CSM didn't have telepathy access, though. It's really sad that everyone is excited about that spell because we don't have any decent guns on our own Is there a page somewhere giving more details on the Crimson Slaughter formations? The BOLS doesn't show what the formations actually do.
Fishboy wrote: After reading the Cabal listing (other sorcerers within 12") does this mean the sorcerers don't need to be placed in the same unit and won't suffer from brotherhood of psyker issues? If they can be placed in different units like the librarius conclave I can see some real benefits here.
There is no requirement for them to be in a single unit. It's similar to the librarius conclave.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Selym wrote: Us propa nerds know that Slaanesh has other facets, and is just hard to represent. But a GW exec probably just looks at our dick references and thinks "waddabout tha children".
We all know GW really wants to sell to younger players. The only thing stopping them from really going that way is that entry prices for a 40k army are greater than a kid's yearly allowance.
And GW will never drop prices.
IDK this seems a bit too cynical, and while I would have agreed 6-8 months ago, Roundtree appears to be moving the slide rule back a lot. I actually think they are doing the opposite and trying to cater to the older vets again in hopes of earning back a lot of lost good faith. I mean, who hear is going to suggest that mechanicus, genestealer cults or betrayal at calth was intended to cater to younger players being drawn in. These are all thing Vets have been crying for, for ages.
Heck, even the power armor 30th is finally giving formations to iron hands, imperial fists and sallies. While I know chaos players still beg for legion specifics, I'll at least concede that they are listening to most of the demands. Heck we are even getting a comprehensive FAQ any week now.
Slaanesh already removed most of the taboo traits from the art and line, aside from some black library books, anyone is welcome to point out mainstream events in the core books and timelines that suggest anything inappropriate about the current state of Slaanesh.
Dan Abnett, I think it was Sabbat Martyr in the gaunt's ghost series is a pretty clear example on that one, complete with mutated hentai love-fests of dubious consent.
Thanks! I think Black Library publication doesn't really count for all canon personally since the writers go of the reservation often or take liberties. Hmmm, that came off wrong, hard to explain, but I don't think a few descriptions in old independent publications are really a problem. I think as long as the core fluff and events are not over the top then it's fine. I mean other horrid things happen in the main line fluff, ie Grey Knights anointing their armor by bathing in battle sisters virgin blood for example. Not sure how people find things like that OK while always hating on the random boob or cod piece on Slaanesh.
"Although units can normally only belong to one detachment, units from Formations that are part of the Red Onslaught are an acception. They are part of both formations, and have all associated special rules."
It does say UNITS from the formation are part of both formations.
If it was just a Formation of Formations, I dont think any clarification would be necessary.
Its a shame it doesn't really mean much for the game, right now. For all its worth it might as well say "what color do you like you chaos?"
Horus Heresy and GW's inevitable attempt to further cash-in on FW's success is probably the best hope for Chaos Marines. HH has given GW a firm quantifiable grasp of the Chaos Legion fan base making it that much easier to justify to the bean counters.
BrookM wrote: From Facebook, apologies if posted before:
Spoiler:
You've got to be kidding me? The Marine one at least had a purpose because the different Chapters have their own rules (and sometimes even entire Codices).
This is a complete joke.
I mean, can you imagine:
GW Employee: Welcome to Games Workshop, how can I help you?
Shiny New Customer: Hey there! I'm looking to start Chaos as I'm tired of all the Strength D my Eldar has. I'm really not sure which type of Chaos force to get.
GWE: You are in luck my friend! The fine folks at the studio put together this fun little flow-chart.
SNC: Sweet. Let's take a look.
GWE: So what do you think?
SNC: Doesn't say much about Night Lords, but they sound pretty cool.
GWE: They are! They're all about terrifying their enemies before they destroy them. There's a heavy stealth element to them, and they strike swiftly with bikes and Rapters.
SNC: Wow. Pretty cool. So what sort of units do they get?
GWE: Well they get all the usual Chaos units, but they should really go heavy on Raptors, Bikes and Warptalons.
SNC: But... the Codex here says that all three of those take up the same slot. Don't they get to take Warptalons as Elites, or Raptors as troops or something?
GWE: Well no, they have one list to use.
SNC: So they get some special rules to bring the army to life, kinda like Raven Guard do.
GWE: Well... no. Not really. But it's a pretty cool theme.
SNC: Right... ok, well, what about... oh! Blood for the Blood God, hey? Khorne is a fun guy. How about the World Eaters?
GWE: Great army! Tons of Berzerkers.
SNC: And Berzerker Bikers and Terminators and Raptors?
GWE: No, it's, like the Night Lords, it's the same basic list. You can give units Marks though.
SNC: But they have special rules for their Khorne worship and stuff, right?
GWE: Really it's just the Berzerkers who represent the "World Eater" side of it.
SNC: Ah... ok, well, let's go blue then, hey? Thousand Sons look amazing. They must have tons of psykers and special rules for mastering the Warp right?
GWE: Not so much.
SNC: Oh...
GWE: Again, it's the same list they're working from.
SNC: So the Wolves get fancy storm powers, but the 1KSons just get... the same list as everyone?
GWE: Uhh... yeah.
SNC: Right. Well... hold on? I don't remember there being a Crimson Slaughter Legion?
GWE: They're not. They're a new warband. They have their own Codex supplement.
SNC: So you're saying that the Legions don't have their own rules when Chapters do, but some random Warband nobody's ever heard of warrants its own supplement book?
GWE: One of the Legions has its own book.
SNC: Which one?
GWE: Black Legion.
SNC: The Chaos Ultramarines have their own book, but the Night Lords are stuck with their most iconic units all in one slot?
GWE: You can take formations.
SNC: Where are those?
GWE: In the Crimson Slaughter book!
SNC: ...
GWE: ...
SNC: Yeah Imma go play a Loyalist Chapter. They get rules to make them unique... not just a paint job.
Red Corsair wrote: I'd go further and say there is no real way of eliminating slaanesh from 40k without detonating the whole setting. The whole Eye of Terror and emergence of chaos was during the birth of slaanesh. It was Slaanesh pleasure cabals that roped good 'Ol Horace into their side as well if I remember correctly. Not to mention the whole eldar line has been modeled around their fate with "she who thirsts."
Cute story, but I don't really see why you'd spread such a s"theory." It will just snowball like a game of telephone and upset a lot of collectors.
Umm...You realize of course that just because you eliminate slaanesh from _current_ timeline(gets locked up or something) doesn't require rewriting HISTORY?
Slaanesh in AOS is missing. Slaanesh pre-End Times didn't get retconned away. Just because I die in one day doesn't mean I didn't exists now.
They can have plotline change in 40k making Slaanesh missing just as Slaanesh is missing in AOS and it does not change Eye Of Terror, Horus Heresy bit at all.
Elves in FB were pretty damn tied with Slaanesh as well...No reason same thing can't apply to Eldar.
Gamgee wrote: Hmmmm chaos is too popular and integral to be left for long like Sisters.
There is a theory they want to get rid of Slaanesh from the setting like they did with Age of Sigmar. All of these stories are building up to a large story event.
Allegedly there is going to be a Dark Eldar campaign book or something this year and for a long time there are hints that the Eldar race as a whole have found a way to kill Slaanesh. however the problem with this is their own god would need to be placed there. I think it was the Eldar God of death or something.
Anyways so if that happens which I think is likely then we have to see Chaos revised completely. We also know from reports that Chaos Marines are being worked on and that they are trying to work on whatever the big event for them it likely next year. I think the Eldar god of death being bad for everybody would be a great thing to revitalize Chaos. It lets them move Slaanesh out of the limelight. It lets them pour money into Chaos line to update it and get rid of some old kits and add new stuff for the new god.
This is just my personal theory from information I've gathered. It is based on what people say is solid rumors. Barring the Dark Eldar ones which were rated as fairly poor.
If this exact chain of events doesn't happen something similar enough will happen. Since this is a big task it's taking a long time to get all of the preparation work done.
That all sounds unlikely, and as a chaos player I'd consider that to be a huge slap in the face. The pantheon already has 2 gods of death, and by the way, as someone who's never read the Age of Sigmar stuff would you mind explaining how exactly they got rid of Slaanesh? I remember seeing a Slaaneshi Age of Sigmar formation somewhere.
Maybe its naive but I think Slaanesh has been incapacitated in AoS because its a new story and AoS is meant to be all about the narrative.
This allows for something different between Slaanesh and the Elves/Eldar rather than being explicitly the same as 40k. We already had 8th edition Fantasy where authors apparently forgot there was any distinction.
Slaanesh will come back when they get around to producing a new KoS and they want to ship it. Maybe they will decide they never want to do that but it seems suspect as its an obvious money spinner.
In the same way a new LoC will be an obvious money spinner and at some point (perhaps in the next twelve months if this is indeed a year of Tzeentch) GW will get around to releasing one.
And if it does I think its highly likely to come with a Tzeentch Daemonkin style book because GW will want all Chaos players to think about buying it.
Unfortunately this means regular CSM get left behind.
Munga wrote: The thing that gets me about the Cabal formation that everyone is excited about is that there was a telepathy spell that was in the BRB of 6th edition that allowed you to make enemy units shoot eachother. If I remember right, CSM didn't have telepathy access, though. It's really sad that everyone is excited about that spell because we don't have any decent guns on our own Is there a page somewhere giving more details on the Crimson Slaughter formations? The BOLS doesn't show what the formations actually do.
It was Puppet Master, but the Cabal version is much better.
Puppet Master was shorter range, a witchfire (so you had to roll hit and couldn't use it in combat), only affected one model instead of the whole unit, and you had to randomly select the model.
Even then it was still very good, but Shroud of Deceit is definitely better.
Gamgee wrote: Hmmmm chaos is too popular and integral to be left for long like Sisters.
There is a theory they want to get rid of Slaanesh from the setting like they did with Age of Sigmar. All of these stories are building up to a large story event.
Allegedly there is going to be a Dark Eldar campaign book or something this year and for a long time there are hints that the Eldar race as a whole have found a way to kill Slaanesh. however the problem with this is their own god would need to be placed there. I think it was the Eldar God of death or something.
Anyways so if that happens which I think is likely then we have to see Chaos revised completely. We also know from reports that Chaos Marines are being worked on and that they are trying to work on whatever the big event for them it likely next year. I think the Eldar god of death being bad for everybody would be a great thing to revitalize Chaos. It lets them move Slaanesh out of the limelight. It lets them pour money into Chaos line to update it and get rid of some old kits and add new stuff for the new god.
This is just my personal theory from information I've gathered. It is based on what people say is solid rumors. Barring the Dark Eldar ones which were rated as fairly poor.
If this exact chain of events doesn't happen something similar enough will happen. Since this is a big task it's taking a long time to get all of the preparation work done.
You clearly haven't been paying attention. Slaanesh is still a part of AoS.
I'd go further and say there is no real way of eliminating slaanesh from 40k without detonating the whole setting. The whole Eye of Terror and emergence of chaos was during the birth of slaanesh. It was Slaanesh pleasure cabals that roped good 'Ol Horace into their side as well if I remember correctly. Not to mention the whole eldar line has been modeled around their fate with "she who thirsts."
Cute story, but I don't really see why you'd spread such a s"theory." It will just snowball like a game of telephone and upset a lot of collectors.
This is just the latest time and here we've seen rumors that GW doesn't like Slaanesh anymore or at the very minimum is looking to see them toned down significantly. Then look at Age of Sigmar and how Slaanesh is gone and lets be honest never coming back. For years now they've been saying Slaanesh is trouble to make models for due to the sexuality of the models. So if you tone them down and it takes away from what Slaanesh is then whats the point even?
Mark my words. Slaanesh's days are numbered. Not like that line ever sold particularly well either in terms of the four gods. Another laser dot to put to his forehead.
I'll be happy if I'm wrong since I personally like the four Chaos gods, but the evidence suggests otherwise.
Gamgee wrote: Hmmmm chaos is too popular and integral to be left for long like Sisters.
There is a theory they want to get rid of Slaanesh from the setting like they did with Age of Sigmar. All of these stories are building up to a large story event.
Allegedly there is going to be a Dark Eldar campaign book or something this year and for a long time there are hints that the Eldar race as a whole have found a way to kill Slaanesh. however the problem with this is their own god would need to be placed there. I think it was the Eldar God of death or something.
Anyways so if that happens which I think is likely then we have to see Chaos revised completely. We also know from reports that Chaos Marines are being worked on and that they are trying to work on whatever the big event for them it likely next year. I think the Eldar god of death being bad for everybody would be a great thing to revitalize Chaos. It lets them move Slaanesh out of the limelight. It lets them pour money into Chaos line to update it and get rid of some old kits and add new stuff for the new god.
This is just my personal theory from information I've gathered. It is based on what people say is solid rumors. Barring the Dark Eldar ones which were rated as fairly poor.
If this exact chain of events doesn't happen something similar enough will happen. Since this is a big task it's taking a long time to get all of the preparation work done.
You clearly haven't been paying attention. Slaanesh is still a part of AoS.
I'd go further and say there is no real way of eliminating slaanesh from 40k without detonating the whole setting. The whole Eye of Terror and emergence of chaos was during the birth of slaanesh. It was Slaanesh pleasure cabals that roped good 'Ol Horace into their side as well if I remember correctly. Not to mention the whole eldar line has been modeled around their fate with "she who thirsts."
Cute story, but I don't really see why you'd spread such a s"theory." It will just snowball like a game of telephone and upset a lot of collectors.
This is just the latest time and here we've seen rumors that GW doesn't like Slaanesh anymore or at the very minimum is looking to see them toned down significantly. Then look at Age of Sigmar and how Slaanesh is gone and lets be honest never coming back. For years now they've been saying Slaanesh is trouble to make models for due to the sexuality of the models. So if you tone them down and it takes away from what Slaanesh is then whats the point even?
Mark my words. Slaanesh's days are numbered. Not like that line ever sold particularly well either in terms of the four gods. Another laser dot to put to his forehead.
I'll be happy if I'm wrong since I personally like the four Chaos gods, but the evidence suggests otherwise.
Sorry if I'll believe the words of Hastings, who's said that the Greater Daemons for ALL gods (yes, that includes Slaanesh) are finished, over yours. Sad Panda as well, who iirc has also mentioned Slaanesh being held back for a big story element, which is what literally everyone except BulloLGak and SpikeyBait are claiming.
Rygnan wrote: Sorry if I'll believe the words of Hastings, who's said that the Greater Daemons for ALL gods (yes, that includes Slaanesh) are finished, over yours. Sad Panda as well, who iirc has also mentioned Slaanesh being held back for a big story element, which is what literally everyone except BulloLGak and SpikeyBait are claiming.
Then again the rumours mentioned several ideas being scrapped. It is possible that Hasting has seen one of _those_(and glottkin as GUO before it was turned to glottkin). This way both would be correct.
It's also possible Slaanesh isn't dead for sure but in limbo until GW figures out what to do with it. Keep it around fluff, do something when somebody comes with sellable idea. Much like Bretonnia seemed to never get update because they weren't sure what direction to take(but with assumption that slaanesh still could come back. Unlike Bretonnia)
Gamgee wrote: Hmmmm chaos is too popular and integral to be left for long like Sisters.
There is a theory they want to get rid of Slaanesh from the setting like they did with Age of Sigmar. All of these stories are building up to a large story event.
Allegedly there is going to be a Dark Eldar campaign book or something this year and for a long time there are hints that the Eldar race as a whole have found a way to kill Slaanesh. however the problem with this is their own god would need to be placed there. I think it was the Eldar God of death or something.
Anyways so if that happens which I think is likely then we have to see Chaos revised completely. We also know from reports that Chaos Marines are being worked on and that they are trying to work on whatever the big event for them it likely next year. I think the Eldar god of death being bad for everybody would be a great thing to revitalize Chaos. It lets them move Slaanesh out of the limelight. It lets them pour money into Chaos line to update it and get rid of some old kits and add new stuff for the new god.
This is just my personal theory from information I've gathered. It is based on what people say is solid rumors. Barring the Dark Eldar ones which were rated as fairly poor.
If this exact chain of events doesn't happen something similar enough will happen. Since this is a big task it's taking a long time to get all of the preparation work done.
You clearly haven't been paying attention. Slaanesh is still a part of AoS.
I'd go further and say there is no real way of eliminating slaanesh from 40k without detonating the whole setting. The whole Eye of Terror and emergence of chaos was during the birth of slaanesh. It was Slaanesh pleasure cabals that roped good 'Ol Horace into their side as well if I remember correctly. Not to mention the whole eldar line has been modeled around their fate with "she who thirsts."
Cute story, but I don't really see why you'd spread such a s"theory." It will just snowball like a game of telephone and upset a lot of collectors.
[LINK that i dont want to quote lol]
This is just the latest time and here we've seen rumors that GW doesn't like Slaanesh anymore or at the very minimum is looking to see them toned down significantly. Then look at Age of Sigmar and how Slaanesh is gone and lets be honest never coming back. For years now they've been saying Slaanesh is trouble to make models for due to the sexuality of the models. So if you tone them down and it takes away from what Slaanesh is then whats the point even?
Mark my words. Slaanesh's days are numbered. Not like that line ever sold particularly well either in terms of the four gods. Another laser dot to put to his forehead.
I'll be happy if I'm wrong since I personally like the four Chaos gods, but the evidence suggests otherwise.
Wow that article is so bad written. Especially the part about the Slaanesh one. Do they really think GW builds up a Slaanesh vs Aelfs confrontation without using it in the future? AoS is a story, not so much a setting (although it gets better and feels more like a setting after the last book).
And just to quote the horrible part lol
The designers are struggling with a new mandate to tone down the adult sexual aspect of the Dark Prince, while keeping up a distinctive visual theme for the Slaanesh range that ties into the other Daemon minis.
Multiple design elements from older Keeper of Secrets designs (going back to the 90s) have been tried without satisfactory results.
What xD? The designers doesn't struggle at all lol. And Slaanesh daemons already got toned down, they just get half bras and tits on one side these days ...
Tyel wrote: Maybe its naive but I think Slaanesh has been incapacitated in AoS because its a new story and AoS is meant to be all about the narrative.
This allows for something different between Slaanesh and the Elves/Eldar rather than being explicitly the same as 40k. We already had 8th edition Fantasy where authors apparently forgot there was any distinction.
Slaanesh will come back when they get around to producing a new KoS and they want to ship it. Maybe they will decide they never want to do that but it seems suspect as its an obvious money spinner.
In the same way a new LoC will be an obvious money spinner and at some point (perhaps in the next twelve months if this is indeed a year of Tzeentch) GW will get around to releasing one.
And if it does I think its highly likely to come with a Tzeentch Daemonkin style book because GW will want all Chaos players to think about buying it.
Unfortunately this means regular CSM get left behind.
People really need to stop this Tzeentchkin/Nurglekin/Slaaneshkin silliness... How many times do the likes of Sad Panda/Atia have to come out and re-iterate that the Khornekin book was nothing more than a rushed-in-a-weekend job that was slapped together, purely to sell the new Bloodthirster in 40k?
There is no Tzeentchkin book coming.
Sad Panda has said multiple times that *IF* GW put out anymore cross-system material, then it'll be a helluva lot more well planed & thought out than the gakfest that Khornekin was.
Red Corsair wrote: I'd go further and say there is no real way of eliminating slaanesh from 40k without detonating the whole setting. The whole Eye of Terror and emergence of chaos was during the birth of slaanesh. It was Slaanesh pleasure cabals that roped good 'Ol Horace into their side as well if I remember correctly. Not to mention the whole eldar line has been modeled around their fate with "she who thirsts."
Cute story, but I don't really see why you'd spread such a s"theory." It will just snowball like a game of telephone and upset a lot of collectors.
Umm...You realize of course that just because you eliminate slaanesh from _current_ timeline(gets locked up or something) doesn't require rewriting HISTORY?
Slaanesh in AOS is missing. Slaanesh pre-End Times didn't get retconned away. Just because I die in one day doesn't mean I didn't exists now.
They can have plotline change in 40k making Slaanesh missing just as Slaanesh is missing in AOS and it does not change Eye Of Terror, Horus Heresy bit at all.
Elves in FB were pretty damn tied with Slaanesh as well...No reason same thing can't apply to Eldar.
Sure except that would take something else entirely. Like end times 40k and the whole thing blowing up rather then being seconds until midnight. Something that has been debunked by reliable rumor mongers. So in the end if they off Slaanesh, I am guessing it will be in concert with ruining 40k anyway.
Red Corsair wrote: Sure except that would take something else entirely. Like end times 40k and the whole thing blowing up rather then being seconds until midnight. Something that has been debunked by reliable rumor mongers. So in the end if they off Slaanesh, I am guessing it will be in concert with ruining 40k anyway.
Not really. It could be written to be as part of storyline that ticks clock another second toward midnight.
- Slaanesh isn't dead, she's vanished (some even say she hides in Azyrheim ....)
- Slaanesh's armies are there and kicking. Daemons and mortals.
- Slaanesh's Keeper of Secrets are there and kicking, doing more than ever before, some even naming themself Slaanesh ...
- The whole Slaanesh vs Aelfs storyline is already foreshadowed in the lore. Same with Slaanesh's follower try to find her. Same with Malerion hiding in the Shadowlands. Or the Big Ironjaw emmisary from Gorkamorka doing the Great Waaaaagh!.
- AoS is a storyline, and will continue as that.
- GW's current plastic Slaanesh line is already "kid friendly".
Atia wrote: - Slaanesh isn't dead, she's vanished (some even say she hides in Azyrheim ....)
- Slaanesh's armies are there and kicking. Daemons and mortals.
- Slaanesh's Keeper of Secrets are there and kicking, doing more than ever before, some even naming themself Slaanesh ...
- The whole Slaanesh vs Aelfs storyline is already foreshadowed in the lore. Same with Slaanesh's follower try to find her. Same with Malerion hiding in the Shadowlands. Or the Big Ironjaw emmisary from Gorkamorka doing the Great Waaaaagh!.
- AoS is a storyline, and will continue as that.
- GW's current plastic Slaanesh line is already "kid friendly".
Finally, there it is. Now everyone can stop this stupid "GW is canning Slaanesh cause of X, Y, or Z stupid reason" nonsense. Thank you
Atia wrote: - Slaanesh isn't dead, she's vanished (some even say she hides in Azyrheim ....)
- Slaanesh's armies are there and kicking. Daemons and mortals.
- Slaanesh's Keeper of Secrets are there and kicking, doing more than ever before, some even naming themself Slaanesh ...
- The whole Slaanesh vs Aelfs storyline is already foreshadowed in the lore. Same with Slaanesh's follower try to find her. Same with Malerion hiding in the Shadowlands. Or the Big Ironjaw emmisary from Gorkamorka doing the Great Waaaaagh!.
- AoS is a storyline, and will continue as that.
- GW's current plastic Slaanesh line is already "kid friendly".
Finally, there it is. Now everyone can stop this stupid "GW is canning Slaanesh cause of X, Y, or Z stupid reason" nonsense. Thank you
Nah, you'll still have non-Chaos players insisting that Slaanesh is still much too R-rated for GW, and that she/he/it's being retconned out of the game entirely because "they said so".
You've got to be kidding me? The Marine one at least had a purpose because the different Chapters have their own rules (and sometimes even entire Codices).
This is a complete joke.
I mean, can you imagine:
Spoiler:
GW Employee: Welcome to Games Workshop, how can I help you?
Shiny New Customer: Hey there! I'm looking to start Chaos as I'm tired of all the Strength D my Eldar has. I'm really not sure which type of Chaos force to get.
GWE: You are in luck my friend! The fine folks at the studio put together this fun little flow-chart.
SNC: Sweet. Let's take a look.
GWE: So what do you think?
SNC: Doesn't say much about Night Lords, but they sound pretty cool.
GWE: They are! They're all about terrifying their enemies before they destroy them. There's a heavy stealth element to them, and they strike swiftly with bikes and Rapters.
SNC: Wow. Pretty cool. So what sort of units do they get?
GWE: Well they get all the usual Chaos units, but they should really go heavy on Raptors, Bikes and Warptalons.
SNC: But... the Codex here says that all three of those take up the same slot. Don't they get to take Warptalons as Elites, or Raptors as troops or something?
GWE: Well no, they have one list to use.
SNC: So they get some special rules to bring the army to life, kinda like Raven Guard do.
GWE: Well... no. Not really. But it's a pretty cool theme.
SNC: Right... ok, well, what about... oh! Blood for the Blood God, hey? Khorne is a fun guy. How about the World Eaters?
GWE: Great army! Tons of Berzerkers.
SNC: And Berzerker Bikers and Terminators and Raptors?
GWE: No, it's, like the Night Lords, it's the same basic list. You can give units Marks though.
SNC: But they have special rules for their Khorne worship and stuff, right?
GWE: Really it's just the Berzerkers who represent the "World Eater" side of it.
SNC: Ah... ok, well, let's go blue then, hey? Thousand Sons look amazing. They must have tons of psykers and special rules for mastering the Warp right?
GWE: Not so much.
SNC: Oh...
GWE: Again, it's the same list they're working from.
SNC: So the Wolves get fancy storm powers, but the 1KSons just get... the same list as everyone?
GWE: Uhh... yeah.
SNC: Right. Well... hold on? I don't remember there being a Crimson Slaughter Legion?
GWE: They're not. They're a new warband. They have their own Codex supplement.
SNC: So you're saying that the Legions don't have their own rules when Chapters do, but some random Warband nobody's ever heard of warrants its own supplement book?
GWE: One of the Legions has its own book.
SNC: Which one?
GWE: Black Legion.
SNC: The Chaos Ultramarines have their own book, but the Night Lords are stuck with their most iconic units all in one slot?
GWE: You can take formations.
SNC: Where are those?
GWE: In the Crimson Slaughter book!
SNC: ...
GWE: ...
SNC: Yeah Imma go play a Loyalist Chapter. They get rules to make them unique... not just a paint job.
Atia wrote: - Slaanesh isn't dead, she's vanished (some even say she hides in Azyrheim ....)
- Slaanesh's armies are there and kicking. Daemons and mortals.
- Slaanesh's Keeper of Secrets are there and kicking, doing more than ever before, some even naming themself Slaanesh ...
- The whole Slaanesh vs Aelfs storyline is already foreshadowed in the lore. Same with Slaanesh's follower try to find her. Same with Malerion hiding in the Shadowlands. Or the Big Ironjaw emmisary from Gorkamorka doing the Great Waaaaagh!.
- AoS is a storyline, and will continue as that.
- GW's current plastic Slaanesh line is already "kid friendly".
Finally, there it is. Now everyone can stop this stupid "GW is canning Slaanesh cause of X, Y, or Z stupid reason" nonsense. Thank you
Nah, you'll still have non-Chaos players insisting that Slaanesh is still much too R-rated for GW, and that she/he/it's being retconned out of the game entirely because "they said so".
For me, it's not about Slaanesh being "R-rated", it's about him/her being pretty one-note in the current iteration. There is more to hedonism than extreme/bizarre sexual fetishes. Slaanesh should represent all 7 of the "Deadly Sins". Example: A Chaos Sorceror so obese he can't even walk on his own. Imagine a fat blob oozing out of his power armor. That is every bit as Slaaneshi as a Daemonette going into battle wearing two bandaids and a fig leaf.
Atia wrote: - Slaanesh isn't dead, she's vanished (some even say she hides in Azyrheim ....)
- Slaanesh's armies are there and kicking. Daemons and mortals.
- Slaanesh's Keeper of Secrets are there and kicking, doing more than ever before, some even naming themself Slaanesh ...
- The whole Slaanesh vs Aelfs storyline is already foreshadowed in the lore. Same with Slaanesh's follower try to find her. Same with Malerion hiding in the Shadowlands. Or the Big Ironjaw emmisary from Gorkamorka doing the Great Waaaaagh!.
- AoS is a storyline, and will continue as that.
- GW's current plastic Slaanesh line is already "kid friendly".
Finally, there it is. Now everyone can stop this stupid "GW is canning Slaanesh cause of X, Y, or Z stupid reason" nonsense. Thank you
Nah, you'll still have non-Chaos players insisting that Slaanesh is still much too R-rated for GW, and that she/he/it's being retconned out of the game entirely because "they said so".
For me, it's not about Slaanesh being "R-rated", it's about him/her being pretty one-note in the current iteration. There is more to hedonism than extreme/bizarre sexual fetishes. Slaanesh should represent all 7 of the "Deadly Sins". Example: A Chaos Sorceror so obese he can't even walk on his own. Imagine a fat blob oozing out of his power armor. That is every bit as Slaaneshi as a Daemonette going into battle wearing two bandaids and a fig leaf.
And if you read the background about Slaanesh's realm in the Daemon army book + codex, it goes into great lengths about the Six Circles of Seduction that lead to the Dark Prince's palace. (Avidity, Gluttony, Carnality, Paramountcy, Vainglory & Indolency)
People have simply shoehorned Slaanesh into the whole 'sex drugs & rock&roll' theme of their own accord.
GW has always made it abundantly clear that Slaanesh is about all forms of excess, selfish desire and sensory overload.
Atia wrote: - Slaanesh isn't dead, she's vanished (some even say she hides in Azyrheim ....)
- Slaanesh's armies are there and kicking. Daemons and mortals.
- Slaanesh's Keeper of Secrets are there and kicking, doing more than ever before, some even naming themself Slaanesh ...
- The whole Slaanesh vs Aelfs storyline is already foreshadowed in the lore. Same with Slaanesh's follower try to find her. Same with Malerion hiding in the Shadowlands. Or the Big Ironjaw emmisary from Gorkamorka doing the Great Waaaaagh!.
- AoS is a storyline, and will continue as that.
- GW's current plastic Slaanesh line is already "kid friendly".
Finally, there it is. Now everyone can stop this stupid "GW is canning Slaanesh cause of X, Y, or Z stupid reason" nonsense. Thank you
Nah, you'll still have non-Chaos players insisting that Slaanesh is still much too R-rated for GW, and that she/he/it's being retconned out of the game entirely because "they said so".
For me, it's not about Slaanesh being "R-rated", it's about him/her being pretty one-note in the current iteration. There is more to hedonism than extreme/bizarre sexual fetishes. Slaanesh should represent all 7 of the "Deadly Sins". Example: A Chaos Sorceror so obese he can't even walk on his own. Imagine a fat blob oozing out of his power armor. That is every bit as Slaaneshi as a Daemonette going into battle wearing two bandaids and a fig leaf.
And if you read the background about Slaanesh's realm in the Daemon army book + codex, it goes into great lengths about the Six Circles of Seduction that lead to the Dark Prince's palace. (Avidity, Gluttony, Carnality, Paramountcy, Vainglory & Indolency)
Exactly. There is so much more that GW could do with Slaanesh if they wanted to be creative. Same goes for Dark Elf models. Imagine a Dark Elf SHV powered by the tortured screams of a slave strapped to the front. Think Penitent Engine with no skin on the pilot.
People really need to stop this Tzeentchkin/Nurglekin/Slaaneshkin silliness... How many times do the likes of Sad Panda/Atia have to come out and re-iterate that the Khornekin book was nothing more than a rushed-in-a-weekend job that was slapped together, purely to sell the new Bloodthirster in 40k?
There is no Tzeentchkin book coming.
Sad Panda has said multiple times that *IF* GW put out anymore cross-system material, then it'll be a helluva lot more well planed & thought out than the gakfest that Khornekin was.
Why? I respect Sad Panda & Atia as much as the next news following obsessive but the GW who put out Khornekin in a weekend have not changed. Greater Daemons are major models for them. The idea they wont try to inspire sales with a codex makes little sense given recent history. A LoC will be an event, it wont be sold as a niche model for Chaos Daemon players who dont have one yet.
Exactly. There is so much more that GW could do with Slaanesh if they wanted to be creative. Same goes for Dark Elf models. Imagine a Dark Elf SHV powered by the tortured screams of a slave strapped to the front. Think Penitent Engine with no skin on the pilot.
People really need to stop this Tzeentchkin/Nurglekin/Slaaneshkin silliness... How many times do the likes of Sad Panda/Atia have to come out and re-iterate that the Khornekin book was nothing more than a rushed-in-a-weekend job that was slapped together, purely to sell the new Bloodthirster in 40k?
There is no Tzeentchkin book coming.
Sad Panda has said multiple times that *IF* GW put out anymore cross-system material, then it'll be a helluva lot more well planed & thought out than the gakfest that Khornekin was.
Why? I respect Sad Panda & Atia as much as the next news following obsessive but the GW who put out Khornekin in a weekend have not changed. Greater Daemons are major models for them. The idea they wont try to inspire sales with a codex makes little sense given recent history. A LoC will be an event, it wont be sold as a niche model for Chaos Daemon players who dont have one yet.
Daemons & allies already exist. The box and WD feature issue will also come with any relevant new dataslates for updated rules.
Besides, if you read the background in the actual Khornekin codex, you'd know that the Daemonkin are unique to Khorne. There are no daemonkin cults for the other gods - the Khorne cults are basically a bunch of mortals who commit ritual suicide through bloody battle in order that theirs and their enemies deaths bring forth Khorne's daemons as a form of ultimate worship.
Everything about their own organisation is based entirely on mimicking Khorne's daemonic legions, and bringing them into the material realm.
People really need to drop this idea that Chaos is getting 4 daemonkin books as it's nothing except a hopeful wish at this point.
or to put another way, there's actually a better chance that GW finally releases a decent CSM codex, rather than anymore daemonkin books!
Nvs wrote: People keep hyping it because they're desperate for anything related to CSM.
CSM getting Jesus Robes for 10.95 with no special rules & funny hats would still make them 100% better than they currently are. Sadly.... So, yeah, hype it up!!!
I really wish Chaos' rules would reflect the background, seeing as it's the "biggest threat" to the Imperium. While it's nice the revised books, Black Legion/Crimson Slaughter, are cheaper now, they don't really do anything to make the army more competitive. Oh well, maybe next year we'll get a proper codex.
Nocturnus wrote: I really wish Chaos' rules would reflect the background, seeing as it's the "biggest threat" to the Imperium. While it's nice the revised books, Black Legion/Crimson Slaughter, are cheaper now, they don't really do anything to make the army more competitive. Oh well, maybe next year we'll get a proper codex.
You are. Chaos Deamons is top tier codex that wrecks gak.
Nocturnus wrote: I really wish Chaos' rules would reflect the background, seeing as it's the "biggest threat" to the Imperium. While it's nice the revised books, Black Legion/Crimson Slaughter, are cheaper now, they don't really do anything to make the army more competitive. Oh well, maybe next year we'll get a proper codex.
You are. Chaos Deamons is top tier codex that wrecks gak.
Pretty sure he was referring to CSM. CSM does not equate to Chaos Daemons and don't even bother trying to say CSM can just ally with Daemons, that's like saying Sisters of Battle are hyper competitive because they're battle brothers with marines and therefore are OP because they have access to grav centurions.
EnTyme wrote: Exactly. There is so much more that GW could do with Slaanesh if they wanted to be creative. Same goes for Dark Elf models. Imagine a Dark Elf SHV powered by the tortured screams of a slave strapped to the front. Think Penitent Engine with no skin on the pilot.
They could but I think they have ran into bit of a stumbling block with the line to take with Slaanesh. Which is why I think they leave it for a limbo until they figure it out. Helps also with pacing releases better when you have one substantial part of line with no need whatsoever for new models for a while.
Convenient method of getting timeout needed to re-imagine the line and how to proceed with it.
But return could be still quite far away(so far it's been mostly Khorne...Next Tzeentch and probably Nurgle before Slaanesh as well) which is why I wouldn't be surprised to see Slaanesh dissapear in present-40k time as well. Too many hints pointing toward it for me to ignore. While not quaranteed chance of that is still bigger than 0% IMO.
EnTyme wrote: Exactly. There is so much more that GW could do with Slaanesh if they wanted to be creative. Same goes for Dark Elf models. Imagine a Dark Elf SHV powered by the tortured screams of a slave strapped to the front. Think Penitent Engine with no skin on the pilot.
They could but I think they have ran into bit of a stumbling block with the line to take with Slaanesh. Which is why I think they leave it for a limbo until they figure it out. Helps also with pacing releases better when you have one substantial part of line with no need whatsoever for new models for a while.
Convenient method of getting timeout needed to re-imagine the line and how to proceed with it.
But return could be still quite far away(so far it's been mostly Khorne...Next Tzeentch and probably Nurgle before Slaanesh as well) which is why I wouldn't be surprised to see Slaanesh dissapear in present-40k time as well. Too many hints pointing toward it for me to ignore. While not quaranteed chance of that is still bigger than 0% IMO.
Except all the reliable rumor peoples said that there is no chance at all. There are no hints at all pointing to
Bi'ios wrote: Except all the reliable rumor peoples said that there is no chance at all. There are no hints at all pointing to
Yeah sure no mention of Eldar and Laughing god with his plans of getting rid of Slaanesh. No hints pointing at all noooooo.
Just because somebody hasn't mentioned something doesn't mean it isn't going to happen. For one they aren't infallible. For second they don't know _everything_. Does Hastings even claim to know everything that comes in say 2 years from now? Sad panda? Atia? That's a long time to know precisely what is coming. Funny there's still releases they haven't mentioned popping up...
Nocturnus wrote: I really wish Chaos' rules would reflect the background, seeing as it's the "biggest threat" to the Imperium. While it's nice the revised books, Black Legion/Crimson Slaughter, are cheaper now, they don't really do anything to make the army more competitive. Oh well, maybe next year we'll get a proper codex.
You are. Chaos Deamons is top tier codex that wrecks gak.
Seeing that this thread is about CSM....
Daemons aren't top tier, they're middle of the pack at best.
Read the first post on this page, and then please stop this argument. You've been proven wrong, not only by one of THE most reliable rumour mongers around, but by the fluff itself, which you claim only goes one way? Ynnead and the Eldar is conclusive proof GW are getting rid of Slaanesh in your eyes, yet you ignore the AoS fluff that is clearly building up to a major story moment which is contrary to your argument.
And as for SP, Hastings and Atia not reporting absolutely every single little thing that GW release, maybe it's because it's something we don't want to hear as much? Look at the boxed games, WH Quest, Calth and Assassinorum for example, they're clearly a massive point of interest, while a relatively different boxed game that is a rehash of White Dwarf rules with no new models isn't something that generates as much interest.
It was Hastings that first reported the new Knights box btw, but by all means disregard the reliable sources and believe BoLS and SpikeyBitz. One last point, vaccines cause autism and the government poisons our water to control us, because I read it online.
Nocturnus wrote: I really wish Chaos' rules would reflect the background, seeing as it's the "biggest threat" to the Imperium. While it's nice the revised books, Black Legion/Crimson Slaughter, are cheaper now, they don't really do anything to make the army more competitive. Oh well, maybe next year we'll get a proper codex.
You are. Chaos Deamons is top tier codex that wrecks gak.
Seeing that this thread is about CSM....
Daemons aren't top tier, they're middle of the pack at best.
Nah, gotta agree that Daemons are top tier, though definitely like Necrons, they're the low end of the top tier. Our tricks are too predictable now, and the realm gems of Eldar/Marines/Tau have enough toys to readily deal with them.
Outside of running a top end filth list though? Daemons drop off pretty quickly, especially if you don't go summoning happy.
As for our "new" supplements. The Black Legion one looks fun, but it's not even a Band-Aid at this point. We're just too horribly out of touch with the game at the basic design level.
It's still amusing however that GW managed to give us a highly inferior version of the Libby Conclave for example...
So the dudes who opened their minds to the full potential & endless power of Chaos get a shiny new WC3 spell that one of them can cast! Meanwhile, the dudes who are still rigidly bound to always holding back on their full potential for fear of corruption, have much easier access to harnessing the very thing they fear!
Oh well, I guess we're supposed to be overjoyed that we no longer have to pay an additional +6pts/model for WS5/BS5 Termies anymore.
Breaking News: GW has finally started reading Dakka threads. The use of the term "top tier" in conjunction woth a CSM thread has flagged the CSM codex as being overpowered.
After rigorous playtesting, the GW design team have decided that the following changes are necessary to attain Balance and maintain the NARRATIVE in 40k:
-All CSM aligned psykers may only take god powers.
-CSM formations are being withdrawn indefinitely.
-Legion Traits were considered, but are too hard to balance.
-The Heldrake is now 200 points base. The Baleflamer is a 50 point upgrade.
-The Chaos Land Raider may no longer transport Abaddon, as he is too big.
-All CSM deepstrike actions scatter D6D6.
-Daemon Princes are noe Lords of War, as is Abaddon
-Chaos Marines may no longer use Rhinos, as they are too hard to maintain.
-Obliterators cannot be taken more than once per detachment, as they are both too rare and too powerful.
-CSM is CtA with all other codicies
-Abaddon may no longer make more that one attack in assault per turn. Reasons are obvious.
Virules wrote: Warzone Fenris Part II is soon, let's see what that brings. Maybe some CSM stuff if we're lucky.
Or unlucky depending on what that "stuff" turns out to be.
I'm waiting to see what rules the Chaos Knight gets in the rumored datasheet. If they add in extra crap to ensure it's strictly inferior to the Imperial one I think we may finally have enough data points to reject the null hypothesis that Chaos' crappy rules are an accident.
All of this complaining, this is the kind of stuff that is bad for the community as a whole. Everyone keep in mind these are supplements, NOT the codex! I would expect that we will see a chaos codex if not before the end of the year then probably early next year. And they have been doing a lot of things in phases. i used to be really down about GW to but I have to say this new President and general attitude is a step inthe right direction. I mean either way our CSM armies are more playable then they where before now.
YES other armies are still better but we will need a codex fix to solve that problem. For the love of god stop all the complaining, some of those formations are decent, And some crazy combos! The grass is ALWAYS going to be greener on the other side! Their are a lot of other armies in the game that have fallen behind the "top tier" armies. I mean we can't all be taudar.... but if we could all point and shoot the game would be super boring! Just stop the complaining! and either enjoy playing your army or for the love of god play another one, or another game. but I can promise you that you will find that any game you go to some armies are better then others. i get chaos is not in a good place and hasn't been for quite a while, but you DO have options! Just stop bitching!
Go out and play some of theses formations, I mean actually play them! i have played three experimental games with the rules printed out to just test them, and what you can do is actually decent. YES there are still some shortcomings, lack of mobility being one, But take the Cyclopia Cabal on bikes, yes expensive, but I have made them make up their points in ONE round of forcing a friends Stormserge's open up on his army. Combine that with Bikes and Flesh hounds from the KDK book and that is a very fast army that can scout, get melta and contend Psycic dice with any army in the game. are their better? yes! but again the grass is always greener on the other side! A solid Chaos codex or hell even CSM in one of the( i believe) two more War zone Fenris books and the whole conversation is turned on it 's head! BE patent, things ARE changing at GW! Give them time to fix the years of bad leadership from their former brass! And for god sake quit complaining about everything! Hell i even saw complaints about the "choose your traitor legion chart! what ELSE can you possibly complain about! it was put out for fun as mucha s the Space marine one was! So either play the game we all love or don't, but as far as i am concerned if all you want to do is complain, find another hobby! Because its cancer for this one and I want to enjoy mine.
Dyslexican32 wrote: All of this complaining, this is the kind of stuff that is bad for the community as a whole. Everyone keep in mind these are supplements, NOT the codex! I would expect that we will see a chaos codex if not before the end of the year then probably early next year. And they have been doing a lot of things in phases. i used to be really down about GW to but I have to say this new President and general attitude is a step inthe right direction. I mean either way our CSM armies are more playable then they where before now.
YES other armies are still better but we will need a codex fix to solve that problem. For the love of god stop all the complaining, some of those formations are decent, And some crazy combos! The grass is ALWAYS going to be greener on the other side! Their are a lot of other armies in the game that have fallen behind the "top tier" armies. I mean we can't all be taudar.... but if we could all point and shoot the game would be super boring! Just stop the complaining! and either enjoy playing your army or for the love of god play another one, or another game. but I can promise you that you will find that any game you go to some armies are better then others. i get chaos is not in a good place and hasn't been for quite a while, but you DO have options! Just stop bitching!
Go out and play some of theses formations, I mean actually play them! i have played three experimental games with the rules printed out to just test them, and what you can do is actually decent. YES there are still some shortcomings, lack of mobility being one, But take the Cyclopia Cabal on bikes, yes expensive, but I have made them make up their points in ONE round of forcing a friends Stormserge's open up on his army. Combine that with Bikes and Flesh hounds from the KDK book and that is a very fast army that can scout, get melta and contend Psycic dice with any army in the game. are their better? yes! but again the grass is always greener on the other side! A solid Chaos codex or hell even CSM in one of the( i believe) two more War zone Fenris books and the whole conversation is turned on it 's head! BE patent, things ARE changing at GW! Give them time to fix the years of bad leadership from their former brass! And for god sake quit complaining about everything! Hell i even saw complaints about the "choose your traitor legion chart! what ELSE can you possibly complain about! it was put out for fun as mucha s the Space marine one was! So either play the game we all love or don't, but as far as i am concerned if all you want to do is complain, find another hobby! Because its cancer for this one and I want to enjoy mine.
*Steps off soap box!*
I'd hug you, but you're all covered in spiky bits (Exalted +1)
All of this complaining, this is the kind of stuff that is bad for the community as a whole. Everyone keep in mind these are supplements, NOT the codex! I would expect that we will see a chaos codex if not before the end of the year then probably early next year. And they have been doing a lot of things in phases. i used to be really down about GW to but I have to say this new President and general attitude is a step inthe right direction. I mean either way our CSM armies are more playable then they where before now.
YES other armies are still better but we will need a codex fix to solve that problem. For the love of god stop all the complaining, some of those formations are decent, And some crazy combos! The grass is ALWAYS going to be greener on the other side! Their are a lot of other armies in the game that have fallen behind the "top tier" armies. I mean we can't all be taudar.... but if we could all point and shoot the game would be super boring! Just stop the complaining! and either enjoy playing your army or for the love of god play another one, or another game. but I can promise you that you will find that any game you go to some armies are better then others. i get chaos is not in a good place and hasn't been for quite a while, but you DO have options! Just stop bitching!
Go out and play some of theses formations, I mean actually play them! i have played three experimental games with the rules printed out to just test them, and what you can do is actually decent. YES there are still some shortcomings, lack of mobility being one, But take the Cyclopia Cabal on bikes, yes expensive, but I have made them make up their points in ONE round of forcing a friends Stormserge's open up on his army. Combine that with Bikes and Flesh hounds from the KDK book and that is a very fast army that can scout, get melta and contend Psycic dice with any army in the game. are their better? yes! but again the grass is always greener on the other side! A solid Chaos codex or hell even CSM in one of the( i believe) two more War zone Fenris books and the whole conversation is turned on it 's head! BE patent, things ARE changing at GW! Give them time to fix the years of bad leadership from their former brass! And for god sake quit complaining about everything! Hell i even saw complaints about the "choose your traitor legion chart! what ELSE can you possibly complain about! it was put out for fun as mucha s the Space marine one was! So either play the game we all love or don't, but as far as i am concerned if all you want to do is complain, find another hobby! Because its cancer for this one and I want to enjoy mine.
*Steps off soap box!*
There is no new Chaos codex until middle of next year, according to the most reliable rumor sources.
Besides, I really think this whole, "shut-up, enjoy what little you do have/L2P" typically comes from those who only jumped into Chaos *after* the great gutting of the entire faction...
When all you've known is crap, it's a lot easier to stay positive that eventually, the future will be brighter.
However, if you were around for the 3.5ed codex, despite its balance issues and a few stand-outs that made no sense, (ie: why no Khornate Havocs loaded with flamers/meltas?), it's only natural to be a jaded, hate-filled, embittered veteran.
People forget, or never even knew about how we actually had literally everything that Loyalists marines now have.
And then, because of both constant complaining from the Loyalist fan base, and JJ deciding that Legion rules and the Books of Chaos were too much for his 6 year old son to handle, it was all stripped away.
Yet then, less than a year later, Loyalists get handed those very same exact rules that were so callously stripped from us. And then to top it all off, they get a bunch of carbon copy wargear/options that we had, yet lost, because they were deemed to be too OP/game-breaking.
And the only thing we've had ever since, has been to endure both the constant middle finger from GW, to Loyalist players always whining the second we do get anything remotely capable of going toe-to-toe with their toys. (case in point, Hellturkies still make you TFG/WaaC's, Daemon Summoning ruined 40k, Oblits & Plaguemarines are OP, spell Familiars & Lv3 Sorcs are Librarians +10, etc...)
It's been 10+ years of neglect and hypocrisy from the largest faction in 40k. We're sick of it. And just saying, "shut-up/L2P, no more complaining, be positive instead & enjoy your polished turd with sprinkles" is even more grating on the nerves of long time Chaos fans.
Coffee is for heretics. Good. 
