Just played against the new kids on the block at a tournament this weekend. Let me tell you for guardsman they are brutal. I'm playing Tau right now but in general what are things you can do to mitigate their shenanigans with a TAC list? One thing that was somewhat useful for me was supportive fire. Some flamers would have helped. Generically would be useful to circle the wagon as it were and bubble wrap you're entire army until GSC makes their turn two shooting and assaulting? Would servo skulls do anything (don't have the skulls rules handy)?
You're on the money with Flamers and bubblewrap. Servo Skulls work as normal too. Killing his HQ characters is a good idea since they provide all kinds of buffs to the army, and if he's rolling on Broodmind he might be using them to Summon in more dudes - this is easier said than done though, since all ICs in the book auto-pass Look Out Sir, even in challenges.
Pulling units into Ongoing Reserve to redploy is a central theme of the army. He can't pull them if they're within 6" of one of yours, so a few sacrifices might be in order to keep as much of his army on the table for as long as possible - that cuts his mobility dead, which allows you to blow up his little Cultists with ease, because nothing kills GSC models quite like being trapped on the table. If he's running a Cult Insurrection (ask him) then make sure you wipe entire units from that detachment, otherwise they can dive into Ongoing Reserve and come back with d6 models restored.
Use the terrain to create bottlenecks, limit the places he can easily get at you. Melee's biggest weakness is the need for base to base contact so if you can force your opponent to go through heaps of firepower to get at anything important he'll struggle.
I'm actually taking a single Flamer in my Chosen squads in my CSM army because I'm seeing the army eventually taking off. You gotta make them at least a little scared to charge. Even a little.
Yeah, I'm really not trying to tailor my list to deal with GSC but...I did switch out the TL fusion blasters on my OSC for the default TL flamers and I have two crisis suits for holding objectives each with a flamer. And I just got a forgeworld Y’vahra for Christmas (nasty AP3/AP2 flamer dude) that I've being dying to try in general. I'm thinking about camping in a corner to force him into using only one fourth of the table and hopefully hide my ethereal.
If you camp in a corner you're essentially cedeing 3/4 of the table to him. Don't forget once his dudes get into Ongoing Reserve they can reappear more or less wherever he needs them - I win a lot more games on objective VPs than I do on kill VPs, purely because I hold a few min squads back in Ambush reserve to snaffle flags my opponent isn't watching over. A single Crisis Suit with a Flamer isn't going to cut it either - five of my Acolytes can drag one of those dudes down handily enough, Overwatch or no Overwatch.
If you're looking for a TAC answer and don't want to tailor, you could do a lot worse than shove a few EWOs onto some of your dudes who carry Smart Missiles as part of their basic wargear. S5 AP5 Ignores Cover is not an appealing prospect for GSC to deal with, especially not when it's falling on you as you arrive from Ongoing Reserve.
Honestly what ive noticed works best, playing against gsc a lot (admittedly against the same player), is minimizing the alpha strike. Its the very first cult ambush that hurts the most, by putting tough, low value units on the board and reserving the rest the gsc fall off heavily as the turns go on. By taking out 2 or 3 full squads ive seen the army go from 2 decimated sm squads first turn to barely being able to shoot a marine off the table. So if you stop them from winning early, you can usually win late.
Tau should be one of the relatively easy army to use in fighting against GSC, cheap bubbles as Kroots, especially when getting buffed overwatch. High mobility in Jet Pack Suits, massed ignore cover options, and most importantly, the EWO.
I really think the only TAC answer is to drop 34pts from your army and get an Inquisitor w/ 3 Servo skulls. If they cannot infiltrate near you, they lose
Can someone confirm if Cult Ambush counts as Infiltrating? Otherwise what I just wrote is worthless
rawne2510 wrote: The new FAQ allows skulls to stop the initial GSC ambush during deployment but not after turn 1
So they just Infiltrate farther away and out of LoS during deployment and then on turn 1 they hop into On-going reserves and bypass the Servo-skulls whole purpose......great.
rawne2510 wrote: The new FAQ allows skulls to stop the initial GSC ambush during deployment but not after turn 1
So they just Infiltrate farther away and out of LoS during deployment and then on turn 1 they hop into On-going reserves and bypass the Servo-skulls whole purpose......great.
that or they don't put everything on the table and can then ambush normaly.
rawne2510 wrote: The new FAQ allows skulls to stop the initial GSC ambush during deployment but not after turn 1
So they just Infiltrate farther away and out of LoS during deployment and then on turn 1 they hop into On-going reserves and bypass the Servo-skulls whole purpose......great.
Yes but this stops the rather effective 1 turn charge when they don´t get the initiative stolen from them. This allows some of the armies that can struggle if they need turn 1 to power up.
Not worried about powering up, worried about never getting a chance to fire at some units before CC. I don't play Tau, so my overwatch is rather meh. Bubble wrap seems the best option, but I don't exactly have expendable units for that either.
Has anyone tried use the Fenrisian Wolves formation for this? Add a big unit of 20+ wolves to any army just to bubble wrap & counter assault?
Galef wrote: I really think the only TAC answer is to drop 34pts from your army and get an Inquisitor w/ 3 Servo skulls.
If they cannot infiltrate near you, they lose
Can someone confirm if Cult Ambush counts as Infiltrating? Otherwise what I just wrote is worthless
It looks most people accepted that the Servo Skull CANNOT STOP the GSC Cult ambush.
I think even the Servo skull works, the GSC can still just deploy on the table normally hide out of LOS, leave the board into on-going reserveon. T2, with some luck, pop out 3 inches from you and charge.
Galef wrote: I really think the only TAC answer is to drop 34pts from your army and get an Inquisitor w/ 3 Servo skulls.
If they cannot infiltrate near you, they lose
Can someone confirm if Cult Ambush counts as Infiltrating? Otherwise what I just wrote is worthless
It looks most people accepted that the Servo Skull CANNOT STOP the GSC Cult ambush.
Seriously, pack some flamers. It is gonna suck. Played a game against them recently. Was pretty damn hard because I'm so unfamiliar with the army and they're frickin everywhere.
Galef wrote: I really think the only TAC answer is to drop 34pts from your army and get an Inquisitor w/ 3 Servo skulls. If they cannot infiltrate near you, they lose
Can someone confirm if Cult Ambush counts as Infiltrating? Otherwise what I just wrote is worthless
It looks most people accepted that the Servo Skull CANNOT STOP the GSC Cult ambush.
Other than the FAQ specifically stating that servo skulls do prevent it during deployment when Ambush is done as Infiltrating. Read the responses after what you quoted.
Dunno why anyone would think skulls would prevent ambush for reserves. Do the skulls rules talk about reserves? I don't have the book for it.
Dunno why anyone would think skulls would prevent ambush for reserves. Do the skulls rules talk about reserves? I don't have the book for it.
I do not have the GSC rules. I was just wondering if the Ambush rule was a form of Infiltrate that worked from reserves. It doesn't look like that is the case. So Servo Skulls are useless after the first turn.
Dunno why anyone would think skulls would prevent ambush for reserves. Do the skulls rules talk about reserves? I don't have the book for it.
I do not have the GSC rules. I was just wondering if the Ambush rule was a form of Infiltrate that worked from reserves. It doesn't look like that is the case. So Servo Skulls are useless after the first turn.
Unfortunately yeah. I was just wondering if Servo Skulls mention anything post-deployment, like messing with deep strike or units coming on from reserve. I figured if not, then they're done after infiltrate anyway, like a one-use item just usable during deployment, and useless after the first turn regardless.
But for their points, aren't they still worth grabbing to help on the first turn?
Kinda. It buys you 1 turn. But a smart GSC player will make that turn pointless since you won't be getting any free shots at any of his units.
You absolutely need weapons that do not require LoS, or really good overwatch. Only 1 army I know has both.
GSC probably won't suddenly become the best army. but they seem to be the ultimate "spoiler" army against Eldar, Grav-spam & Deathstar lists. Which is a good thing for the game overall, but since I play Eldar, I am at a loss for what to do. At best, I am thinking of getting some AoS Griff-hounds to "counts as" Fenrisian Wolves. Fluffwise, they can be Exodite creatures. Cheap bubble wrap for the first 2 turns, then counter attack fodder.
Yeah, I think they are like 8pts for a basic Marine statline (minus the armour and special rules), but a few more attacks Plus they are on 40mm bases, so you can cover more ground with them. And yes, the formation only requires 2-5 units of them and all units can be combined into 1 unit is desired. Imagine 1 unit of 20 bubble wrapping my Eldar army. SInce most GSC armies seems to feavor MSU, none of the units will really want to charge that as they will get ripped to shreds through weight of attacks.
As an Eldar player, I could also use Dark Eldar allies (particularly Beast packs) but that involves a higher points investment.
I think a lot of GSC players include at least 1-2 big squads. So if I were a a GSC player. I would hit 20 wolves with a 10 man acolyte squad and expect to win. Especially if I cast the primaris spell on the dogs. It makes them -1 attack, initiative, and ws. All of a sudden I'm going first, hitting on 3s, and even if I don't have any of the half dozen easy to get buffs I'm shredding them.
I say this to give you an idea that you may be able to bubble wrap but don't expect the wolves to actually kill much.
Also, with basically no save to speak of? Be careful getting removed in deployment. a ten man squad of neophytes (Which again, most players bring at least 2, I plan on having 6) should be able to remove 1-3 wolves per squad rolling a deployment shooting. So don't rely on a single layer of bubble wrap. I played against a player that tried to bubble wrap with 20 tzangors and half of them were dead during deployment.
Setting aside the fact that you still have to roll a 5 get a unit that close and shoot or a 6 to charge (still possible granted), I'd don't see that as a viable long term tactic, more like a Hail Marie!. And correct me if I am wrong, but GSC units do not have grenades. It is pretty easy to a get every other Wolf into terrain, forcing you to go last, or getting a cover save from the shooty guys.
I'm not saying it is fool proof (for goodness sake, this 1 army has made me not want to bring Eldar to tourneys anymore) but I don't think it is all that easy for the GSC to overcome either, especially with good use of terrain. But you bring up a good point. It probably is better to do 2x 10 rather than 1x 20. Just to have a back-up for counter assaulting if the other gets tied up.
Apart from my brood cycle detachment I got a subterranean uprising with:
20 acolytes with primus
20 acolytes
10 metamorphs with claw
10 metamorphs with claw
10 metamorphs with claw
Also got a CAD with another patriarch and magus.
Every '5' cult ambush result gets you a free shooting turn and after that I can still summon 20 extra neophytes with guns. with 4 psykers and 9 powers I almost always got summoning and only big psychic daemon armies got enough dice to block this. Or I just use mind control to let a scatterbike unit shoot at the wolves.
Then I can still shoot with all the units that didn't get a '6' result. It's only autopistols but still a big bunch of them... If I kill about 6/7 models its enough to let my assault units tie up the big hitters.
It's not hard to breach a bubble wrap.
Its harder for me to take down ravenwing bikes because the can scout forward and when surrounded the break free with bolters, hammer of wrath hits and hit and run.
Galef wrote: Setting aside the fact that you still have to roll a 5 get a unit that close and shoot or a 6 to charge (still possible granted), I'd don't see that as a viable long term tactic, more like a Hail Marie!.
And correct me if I am wrong, but GSC units do not have grenades. It is pretty easy to a get every other Wolf into terrain, forcing you to go last, or getting a cover save from the shooty guys.
I'm not saying it is fool proof (for goodness sake, this 1 army has made me not want to bring Eldar to tourneys anymore) but I don't think it is all that easy for the GSC to overcome either, especially with good use of terrain.
But you bring up a good point. It probably is better to do 2x 10 rather than 1x 20. Just to have a back-up for counter assaulting if the other gets tied up.
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Well, I'm going to correct you, they all have grenades!
And it's not too much of a hail mary, like I said, I did it! lets assume the player does deploy aggressively and you don't seize. (I'm assuming this is your worst case scenario, though I wouldn't use this strategy)
Even if I only get a single unit of neophytes or 2-3 smaller units with pistols I can clear out a little area to deploy a couple models. Then during my turn I move them and now all those models I deployed aggressively fire their pistols. It's like 100 pistols! lol. If I get lucky and I have the spell that allows me to run and charge I can even shoot the dogs, then RUN through the gap before assaulting.
With all that being said, my point is that I don't think wolves are a super useful barrier. I'm a top 100 ITC player, so I play a lot but I'm not super good so maybe you've got something that I haven't considered.
If I was a PURE eldar player I think I'd invest in some close combat troops. The I5 and any kind of mass attacks is BRUTAL for genestealer and makes sure they don't run away. I've lost squads as often as not to assault from jetbikes. The hammer of wrath, plus their two attacks really make a big dent.
Well, I'm going to correct you, they all have grenades!
Well $h!+. Screw that Idea then. I guess I'll start taking 2 WKs and reserving everything else then. Even then you'll still be able to pop up where the frakk you want in later turns. That is what ticks me off the most. There is absolutely no way to plan out my turns. Even when everything comes on the board, it can just hide and leave again next turn for yet another try at rolling a 6. Even if I win every game, GSCs are never gonna be fun for me to play against. You could say that is the point: to unnerve the enemy, but it just isn't fun
If I was a PURE eldar player I think I'd invest in some close combat troops. The I5 and any kind of mass attacks is BRUTAL for genestealer and makes sure they don't run away. I've lost squads as often as not to assault from jetbikes. The hammer of wrath, plus their two attacks really make a big dent.
Or just bring a riptide wing and be done with it.
Yep. Maybe my Scorpions will start making appearances.
Well, I'm going to correct you, they all have grenades!
Well $h!+. Screw that Idea then. I guess I'll start taking 2 WKs and reserving everything else then. Even then you'll still be able to pop up where the frakk you want in later turns.
That is what ticks me off the most. There is absolutely no way to plan out my turns. Even when everything comes on the board, it can just hide and leave again next turn for yet another try at rolling a 6.
Even if I win every game, GSCs are never gonna be fun for me to play against. You could say that is the point: to unnerve the enemy, but it just isn't fun
I think this GSC is one of the most fun competitive armies. Why? Because it's not all about shooting the crap out of the enemy or buff up a deathstar or stuff. Cult ambush forces you to play smart and that goes for the GSC player and opponent as well. Its always an exiting game and both armies lose a lot of casualties most of the time. GSC armies shooting is crap and the are still very fragile so you cannot afford to make a lot of mistakes but apart from that you can also lose a lot and still win the game. Why do you want a game you have all planned out?
- Do you know that your farseer could get the eldritch storm power and cast an S3 apocalyptic blast with ignore cover?
- Do you know what cleansing flame does to GSC army?
- Do you know that you could shoot with warp spiders just barely standing within 12 inch range and then run (battle focus) away and shoot overwatch and then if the assault still hit them first with Initiative 5 and then hit and run?
So much that you can do but you have to adjust your battle plan every turn just like have to do as a GSC-player..
What I mean is that I am constantly planning out the next turn or 2 according to what is happening in the current turn with the rolls either player is making. If I know you have a few infantry units over in that corner with range X, I can just make the decision as to whether they are an immediate threat or if I can move/shoot/assault other units. GSC take that decision away from their opponent by "shuffling" their units. The GSC player forces their opponent to be reactive, rather than proactive Is it fluffy? Heck Yeah Is it good for the game? You betcha
Is it gonna be fun for a player who methodically spends hours building lists and contemplating outcomes to build strategy around? No....no it will not. I suppose I will adapt, but there will always be a sense of dread for me every time I set up against a GSC army.
p.s. I don't play Warp Spiders, but you have valid points about the power selection
I've been on the receiving end of GSC as guard, and that was easily the least fun game I ever played. Other player deployed directly in front of my army using some formation rules, I failed to seize, and the game was basically over before I got a turn in.
Heck, as Eldar and Tau you have viable counter options. As IG, I can't fathom any way of besting that GSC first turn charge, even if I hard-tailor against it. I've had some good thinks on it, and all I can come up with is 'play a different army.'
Granted, I'm excited to put together my Deathwatch, but somehow I doubt that's going to fare much better unless I go full shotgun squads, which will only work due to sheer volume of Wall of Death, and probably following that up with stormshields to deal with the abundance of rending attacks.
Galef wrote: Has anyone tried use the Fenrisian Wolves formation for this? Add a big unit of 20+ wolves to any army just to bubble wrap & counter assault?
I've run Wolves against GSC, and had Wolves run against my GSC - they never impress. GSC will tear down Wolves at the best of times, and big units are vulnerable to Mass Hypnosis which makes the task much easier, so counter-assault isn't going to work. Plus, their poor saves and large bases mean I can pop a hole in the cordon with my autopistols and grenades if I feel the need.
Unless you're going at I5+ with lots of S4+ attacks, and/or are unusually resilient (i.e. a Screamerstar with a 2++ rerollable), then counter-assaulting GSC is a bad way to go. GSC models are killed by shooting. They can't stand up to any amount of firepower whatsoever. In order to expose them to that you need to trap them on the table, which often means sacrificing units to deny RttS or catching the buggers while they're snapping up Maelstrom points.
Galef wrote: Even if I win every game, GSCs are never gonna be fun for me to play against. You could say that is the point: to unnerve the enemy, but it just isn't fun
Au contraire - playing against Genestealer Cults is a lot of fun, partly because they're so different to the established order and partly because you get to kill 20-50 models each and every turn. It rarely makes much of an impact because a lot of them will come back to life when the units RttS and the Summoning starts, but it's always nice to blow up tonnes of dudes. If you're worried about GSC as an Eldar player the main thing to remember is they're way more mobile than you are - shooting and scooting isn't useless, but it doesn't make your units untouchable the same way it does against less mobile armies. There's not much you can really do to stop him RttSing either because Eldar armies tend to have too little board presence to trap significant numbers of GSC on the board, so focus on blowing up his juicier units whenever they rear their heads, and most importantly don't panic. Games against GSC can quickly spiral into a rout if you start getting flustered and annoyed. Just keep shooting everything he puts down, save your Denial dice for Summons, kill his HQs, and bring plenty of Warp Spiders.
If you think running a pair of Wraithknights will make things easier against the GSC, I'd reconsider. The usual cheese just doesn't faze GSC in the same way as it phases other armies, because like Tau and Grav Marines, GSC can and will hurt your big dudes. Basic GSC dudes can kill a Wraithknight or two given time, and can throw so many dudes at your gargants that even Stomp won't help you clear combat. They can also Mass Hypnotise the things into uselessness and potentially use the Wraithcannons to kill your own dudes.
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Axle_Gear wrote: As IG, I can't fathom any way of besting that GSC first turn charge, even if I hard-tailor against it. I've had some good thinks on it, and all I can come up with is 'play a different army.'
IG are a toughie - the IG Codex sucks quite hard, so it's difficult to really come up with anything that doesn't involve ring-fencing your board quarter with Combined Squads and hoping they last long enough for the Wyverns to start shooting. I don't like to see Hellhounds as GSC, but Hellhounds are dump against anyone who is not GSC or Orks so they're not really an option. If you're not averse to running your IG as a Castellans detachment then bringin in some other IoM clobber would help you out. Servo Skulls help you carve out safe zones at deployment, Coteaz lets you go first and stops the GSC seizing on you, Greyfax is wicked-cool, SM Scouts and Sisters of Battle bring cheap, plentiful bolters to the table which GSC don't like to see, and if all else fails you can bring a couple of Flyers, which the GSC can't do anything about.
The Deathwatch probably won't help you much here, I think. Storm Shields give you a save against Rends, but GSC kill Marines by forcing them to roll lots of saves not by Rending them to death, so your dudes will just die expensive. On the whole the Deathwatch are just too costly to really be useful outside of Kill Team, I think - their shooting is excellent, but there's not enough of it for my liking.
I don't want to imagine what playing against them with my Deldar would be like, deldar hate alpha strike, or beta strike, etc etc, you get the point, so it would probably be not fun at all.
However, it is very nice to to see tyranids getting love, and a competitive army that is a bit of a change of pace.
If GCS goes first turn 1, I bubble wrap the FMCs with horrors and cultists, I don't care if they get wiped out. Then Magnus, Fatey goes into the air and cast Tz Warpflare wiping out multiple units every turn. Also summoning chariots and flamers to burn them.
i actually dont mind fighting the magnus list and have not lost against it yet. a gsc player that knows what they are doing can beat magnus all the time if they play it right going first or second. best thing to do is carpet all the objectives and win on mission. and if possible cover the half of the board so magnus cant even fly and has to stay on the ground then just charge him.
SonsofVulkan wrote:My TS Magnus list eats GSC for lunch.
If GCS goes first turn 1, I bubble wrap the FMCs with horrors and cultists, I don't care if they get wiped out. Then Magnus, Fatey goes into the air and cast Tz Warpflare wiping out multiple units every turn. Also summoning chariots and flamers to burn them.
So at 1850 points you got Chaos Sorcerer (I presume) + cultists + Magnus + fateweaver + Lord of change? + brimstone horrors?
So thats about 2+5+4+3+2= 17 warp charge? When My GSC army kills the brimstone horrors + sorcerer it's only 13 warp charge.
My armylist got two patriarch's and two magus. Magus gives adamantium will within 12 inch so If any of my psykers keep within that adamantium bubble the get a 4+ deny the witch against that nova power.
IVIOOSE wrote:i actually dont mind fighting the magnus list and have not lost against it yet. a gsc player that knows what they are doing can beat magnus all the time if they play it right going first or second. best thing to do is carpet all the objectives and win on mission. and if possible cover the half of the board so magnus cant even fly and has to stay on the ground then just charge him.
Apart from the 'purge the alien' mission I don't think I could lose with my GSC army..
turn 1 - 2 pink horror units are on the board from summoning as is a chariot. magnus throws one nova at you with 5 dice (getting it off on 4 lets say). you are throwing most of your dice at stopping it once.
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IVIOOSE wrote: i actually dont mind fighting the magnus list and have not lost against it yet. a gsc player that knows what they are doing can beat magnus all the time if they play it right going first or second. best thing to do is carpet all the objectives and win on mission. and if possible cover the half of the board so magnus cant even fly and has to stay on the ground then just charge him.
To be honest I am not sure that I would fly him. depends on what shooting threat you have I guess. I would want him in combat against you so I could start making spawns.
rawne2510 wrote: turn 1 - 2 pink horror units are on the board from summoning as is a chariot. magnus throws one nova at you with 5 dice (getting it off on 4 lets say). you are throwing most of your dice at stopping it once.
So you summon 1 units horrors with 5 warp charge (paradox?) and then you need about 8/9 warp charge to be sure you got another horror squad..and then you need about 5/6 warp charge for Magnus to make sure it can summon a chariot, and then another 5 to pull off the nova power (probably more because my GSC army got 8 warp charge +1D6 and as I said it denies on a 4+).
So your best damage output consists of 1 chariot flamer and maybe 1 nova power?
What does your armylist look like(1850p)? I'am curious...
IVIOOSE wrote: i actually dont mind fighting the magnus list and have not lost against it yet. a gsc player that knows what they are doing can beat magnus all the time if they play it right going first or second. best thing to do is carpet all the objectives and win on mission. and if possible cover the half of the board so magnus cant even fly and has to stay on the ground then just charge him.
To be honest I am not sure that I would fly him. depends on what shooting threat you have I guess. I would want him in combat against you so I could start making spawns.
Thats just silly....Magnus got no hit & run so he will be taken down or locked down the whole game. Spawns? Serious?
Automatically Appended Next Post: I believe that magnus on his own in combat would kill the equivalent in points through a game when you include the spawns he creates coming in.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Something close to this
Rehati War Sect:
Magnus
3 Tz DPs - Wings, Armour, ML3 & spell familiars
Daemon CAD:
ML2 Tz Herald on Disc
2x 12 Blue Horrors
Probably have robes on one DP and paradox on another of maybe the herald
I believe that magnus on his own in combat would kill the equivalent in points through a game when you include the spawns he creates coming in.
Killing GSC models isn't difficult - stopping them from killing yours is the issue. Rending means they're plenty able to do that and Cult Ambush means they can reach you to do it, without having to worry about walking through Novas or whatever - especially if your army has no vehicles to hide in. Acolytes and Metamorphs will chew through just about anything eventually. I wouldn't put Magnus anywhere near combat unless I could be sure he'd be able to get out quickly and fly away.
Telling you against magnus you wouldn´t be able to get enough models into him to be an issue unless you are using 10 man units in which case you have half as many units on the table.
GSC want lots of small units to be effective as I understand it. Hitting on 5 wounding on 6s won´t to that much. Not getting into him turn 1 so that the patriarch will be the primary target. watch those units start dying from getting run down in combat.
rawne2510 wrote: Telling you against magnus you wouldn´t be able to get enough models into him to be an issue unless you are using 10 man units in which case you have half as many units on the table.
GSC want lots of small units to be effective as I understand it. Hitting on 5 wounding on 6s won´t to that much. Not getting into him turn 1 so that the patriarch will be the primary target. watch those units start dying from getting run down in combat.
Purestrains would worry me the most
I believe Magnus got Wskill 7 so Metamorphs and acolytes hit on a 4+ (wskill 4).When Magnus is stuck in close combat you can bet that theirs about 4+ units within charge range making sure he stays there and eventually dies. Your also forgetting that most metamorphs got +2 strenght and it's not hard te get that iconward within 12 inch for that extra furious charge.
Purestrain are actually worse compared to acolytes considering the points versus the amount of models.
ok so 20 models charge him. He will target the unit with something fearless in it of spread his attacks across the most aggressive unit. 4 hit 3-4 dead. Fear checks for everyone unless that fearless model is there (not guaranteed). lets say 60 attacks so 30 hits 10 wounds as they have enough Str 6 maybe. 3+ save rerolling 1 = 2-3 wounds maybe. lose combat 2 units run on average he´s stuck in combat.
But be aware nothing will be charging him turn 1 ever. so I find it highly unlikely that 4 units will ever get into him in 1 go.
rawne2510 wrote: Telling you against magnus you wouldn´t be able to get enough models into him to be an issue
Depends what you mean by "be an issue". It'd be difficult to get enough models into him to kill him in a single combat phase - but he costs 650pts, so that's to be expected. He only has six attacks though, so what I can do is dump enough models into him to keep him in one place for a long time while the rest of my army fends off the rest of yours and teleports all over the place capping flags and stealing Linebreaker. Plus, the Rending dudes are all hitting him on 4+, not 5+, and a single model has three Rending attacks base - that's enough to grind him down over the course of two or three turns. Even supposing it's not, he's not shooting me or doing anything other than fending off a swarm of cheap-ass Acolytes. I can live with that.
That all relies on me having a Patriarch nearby to keep up the Fearless bubble though - so kill the Patriarch and you're done, right? Sort of. I have a couple of 1850pt lists - one of them has three Patriarchs and 150+ models, the other has five and 130-ish. They all auto-pass Look Out Sirs, even in challenges, they have a similar stat-line to your Daemon Princes in close combat, and they can Hypnotise your dudes to make CCing them to death easier - they're not appetising targets for a close combat army to deal with.
That's all speculative, though. Magnus Dameons are one army I haven't really played against with my GSC - it'd be an interesting game if nothing else.
rawne2510 wrote: Telling you against magnus you wouldn´t be able to get enough models into him to be an issue
Depends what you mean by "be an issue". It'd be difficult to get enough models into him to kill him in a single combat phase - but he costs 650pts, so that's to be expected. He only has six attacks though, so what I can do is dump enough models into him to keep him in one place for a long time while the rest of my army fends off the rest of yours and teleports all over the place capping flags and stealing Linebreaker. Plus, the Rending dudes are all hitting him on 4+, not 5+, and a single model has three Rending attacks base - that's enough to grind him down over the course of two or three turns. Even supposing it's not, he's not shooting me or doing anything other than fending off a swarm of cheap-ass Acolytes. I can live with that.
That all relies on me having a Patriarch nearby to keep up the Fearless bubble though - so kill the Patriarch and you're done, right? Sort of. I have a couple of 1850pt lists - one of them has three Patriarchs and 150+ models, the other has five and 130-ish. They all auto-pass Look Out Sirs, even in challenges, they have a similar stat-line to your Daemon Princes in close combat, and they can Hypnotise your dudes to make CCing them to death easier - they're not appetising targets for a close combat army to deal with.
That's all speculative, though. Magnus Dameons are one army I haven't really played against with my GSC - it'd be an interesting game if nothing else.
Yeah. 24 blue horrors will stop any kind of meaningful ambush against any of the FMC. The patriarch allows LoS from a challenge (hmm that´s rather tasty).
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ah read the wrong line when looking at WS. That DP is 9 not Magnus. My bad
rawne2510 wrote: Yeah. 24 blue horrors will stop any kind of meaningful ambush against any of the FMC
Possibly, but like I said, it requires moving your army around the table in a big lump for the whole game if you want to keep them 100% protected from tar-pitting. Cult Ambush works the same from Ongoing Reserve as it does during Infiltration; the GSC can catch your monsters anywhere on the table at any point in the game, and while you might only get 1-4 units that arrive from Ambush that can charge, most of the rest will be able to drop within 6-9" of your dudes. The wandering blob thing works for Tau because they can shoot out of it. I don't see how it would work for Daemons.
... unless they're flying. That's what I'd do if I were playing your army against GSC - Swoop the monsters first chance I got, then start summoning Daemonettes and Flesh Hounds in one corner of the board. Both of these can take a bite out of basic GSC in close combat, plus the Flesh Hounds are mobile and bitey enough to give you a bit of a response to Cult Ambushes against Maelstrom objectives. Trying to muscle a win with your monsters or Magnus probably isn't the best way to go about beating GSC with Daemons.
It would only need the blob for the first turn. You aren´t going to have enough units repeatedly off the table to get your 6s to charge. I don´t believe that your shooting would be adequate enough. the other DP would be flying dropping units around the place as you say.
Wondering if seekers or fiends would be good for slaanesh side. hounds and screamers will help whittle down the units further away.
Yeah. 24 blue horrors will stop any kind of meaningful ambush against any of the FMC. The patriarch allows LoS from a challenge (hmm that´s rather tasty).
Not if the GSC army got first turn. Cult ambush infiltrate stil allows units to move and shoot. If you focus every '5' result (free shooting turn when infiltrating/deploying) to make a breach then the daemon player could close that breach with brimstone horrors during deployment. First turn the GSC that didn't got a '6' result can shoot down the brimstone horrors and there is an opening.
The best thing about cult ambush is deploying a big blob of models in the middle and force the FMC to fly to the side or not fly at all. This way you can force them to move to where you want them to go.
The '6" allows them to infiltrate 3" then charge correct?
So with proper deployment, they would be too far away to successfully charge an FMC? Hear me out. Deploy FMC with a "ring" of blue horrors about 6" AWAY from the FMC. The means that the closest the "6" result units could infiltrate would be 10" from the FMC. When the '5' result models shoot at the Blues, the resulting Brimstones deploy in front of the '6' result units, not intervening between the FMC and the shooting units. Now casualties taken from the Brims may not result in a gap for the '6' result unit to charge. They would have to go around, thereby resulting in a charge too far to make.
The best way for the GSC to prevent this is to place the shooting result units and CC result unit in the same spot, which may be very difficult
Of course, you just take Pink Horrors instead and this is an non issue since there is no way you're getting past that many Splits. Then the FMC takes flight and does not have to surrounded anymore. Even better it you take a Herald with the Locus of Creation so that 4 Blues are created for every Pink destroyed
rawne2510 wrote: It would only need the blob for the first turn. You aren´t going to have enough units repeatedly off the table to get your 6s to charge.
Against a White Scars Gladius or something that would be true; it's hard to keep up a decent Ambush carousel when you're fighting off Bikes plus a Rhino rush and then the dudes who fall out of them. It's much, much easier to build up a really good Ambush carousel against small armies like yours, which have neither the board presence to prevent RttS nor the firepower to kill whatever anchor units the GSC player leaves behind.
Galef wrote: The '6" allows them to infiltrate 3" then charge correct?
So with proper deployment, they would be too far away to successfully charge an FMC?[(-snip-)
Right, that's all great - however, I don't know about you, but I'm certainly not trying to alpha strike a 650pt Magnus and three DPs through Difficult & Dangerous terrain regardless of whatever deployment shenanigans you want to pull. I'm trying to get as much into Ongoing Reserve as I can without getting pseudo-tabled, then patting down any little pockets of Daemons that pop up before disappearing back off the table so I can Ambush again somewhere else. If I get the chance to pin Magnus down I'll take it, but otherwise I'm going to try and either chase him out of play or stay the hell away from him. The DPs are less of an issue - basic GSC can drag them down easily enough, especially if they have a Patriarch helping out, but again, I'd be ignoring them as hard as possible.
Please don't go about thinking GSC are an alpha strike or bust army. Alpha strike is an option in some cases, but in others it's all about Cult Ambush mobility, attrition, and winning the Maelstrom.
Right, I get that. Thing is, at the start of my turn two I get 80-100 dudes back from Ongoing Reserve, some of whom may be able to charge and all of whom can shoot. That's on top of the dudes I already have on the table, who can either go into Ambush reserve or charge depending on the situation. Not to mention your Summons only drop within 12" of your summoner, so if I have dudes sitting in a corner - or in reserve - you're not going to stop them Ambushing. In fact I think it's a bad idea to try with this particular army.
and will continue to do so each turn until you kill those DPs
There's nothing on the Malefic summoning list that GSC won't wipe out inside a combat phase or two unless you roll Sacrifice, which you don't want to do on a 300pt DP. You might be able to build up enough board presence to interrupt an Ambush carousel, but doing so exposes your Summons to a piecemeal gribbling and gives the GSC a springboard to shuffle his units around with. It also means less shooting, which is the one thing that kills GSC units reliably. Your DPs and Magnus aren't going to land to help your little dudes out, because if they do they either get tar-pitted (Magnus) or killed (DPs). The little dudes are on their own.
That's why I think trying to keep GSC on the table is a bad idea for your army. Instead, I'd want to have them Ambushing stuff so I don't have to deal with it while I consolidate control of one table half, with enough Beasts/ Jetbikes to threaten the rest of it. That way if he starts ambushing lone units onto Maelstrom objectives I can pick them off, and anything he Ambushes into my table half, he's going to lose. It also gives me the option to Glide my big dudes if I feel like it - the Ambushers can still land in my table half, but if they do I have dudes on hand to help the DPs/ Magnus get out of combat quickly.
20 acolytes + Primus
20 acolytes
10 metamorphs with claws
10 metamorphs with claws
10 metamorphs with claws
2 x 5 acolytes from the CAD
Test infiltrate:
My subterranean uprising doesn't get those sixes but I did get 3x '5' result (free shooting) and 2x '6' result. Also only 2x '1' result.
At the left flank I shot with 2 units (5 result) and killed 4 blue horrors. After that I could drop the '6' result squad a little closer.
The whole deployment prevents the FMC from flying away and only one Daemon prince can move 12 inch if the horrors move out of the way. My units with magus are deployed in a way that the will be most likely be hit by any nova and that gives them a 4+ deny the witch.
So even if the daemons get first turn the will be struggling..
Great demonstration Shotgun. But why would you deploy that way? You create 2 "bubbles" so that after all the infiltrating, the 2 DPs from the left flank can move right, that the DP & Magnus on the right flank can move left. Just move some horors out of the way for the FMCs to "switch places"
Another devastating threat that I do not think has been mentioned is that the Rehati Formation allows all the DPs within range of Magnus (18" I think) to cast on 3+ and always have LoS with psychic powers. So if the GSC plan is to shuffle units into ongoing reserve, they may get tables as there is no way to hide the units that must stay on the table. You'd have to leave a significant number of models on the board to prevent getting tabled before the other units can Ambush.
Galef wrote: Why would you deploy that way? You create 2 "bubbles" so that after all the infiltrating, the 2 DPs from the left flank can move right, that the DP & Magnus on the right flank can move left. Just move some horors out of the way for the FMCs to "switch places"
One devastating threat that I do not think has been mentioned is that the Rehati Formation allows all the DPs within range of Magnus (18" I think) to cast on 3+ and always have LoS with psychic powers.
So if the GSC plan is to shuffle units into ongoing reserve, they may get tables as there is no way to hide the units that must stay on the table. You'd have to leave a significant number of models on the board to prevent getting tabled before the other units can Ambush.
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Most times a GSC player want to have the second turn because you only lose at the end of the game turn if you got nothing on the board. So it's not hard to remove everything and just keep a small squad on the table in the second player turn.
20 acolytes + Primus
20 acolytes
10 metamorphs with claws
10 metamorphs with claws
10 metamorphs with claws
2 x 5 acolytes from the CAD
Test infiltrate:
My subterranean uprising doesn't get those sixes but I did get 3x '5' result (free shooting) and 2x '6' result. Also only 2x '1' result.
At the left flank I shot with 2 units (5 result) and killed 4 blue horrors. After that I could drop the '6' result squad a little closer.
The whole deployment prevents the FMC from flying away and only one Daemon prince can move 12 inch if the horrors move out of the way. My units with magus are deployed in a way that the will be most likely be hit by any nova and that gives them a 4+ deny the witch.
So even if the daemons get first turn the will be struggling..
Happy with how you have setup. Do you shoot as soon as you place or do you have to place everything first before shooting?
Most times a GSC player want to have the second turn because you only lose at the end of the game turn if you got nothing on the board. So it's not hard to remove everything and just keep a small squad on the table in the second player turn.
I'm glad you pointed that out. I may have to give GSC first turn when I can just to prevent this...If I were playing Magnus that is.
My point about the deployment, was that even with the Rehati formation, you can fit in enough Horrors to bubble wrap the FMCs in 2 groups, ensuring that no matter how the GSC infiltrates, you'd only have to move the horrors out of the way for all the MCs to move 12" and take flight. Just deploy DP1 & DP2 together, but about 9" away from Magnus & DP3. Surround each group with 2 layers of Horrors, with a 4-6" gap between layers. Once the GSC infiltrates and kills some horrors, now you can simply move DP1 12" to the other side of Magnus & DP3, move DP3 to where DP1 was, and keep play hop-scotch until they have swapped places and all have moved at least 12". Done
I have to say. The army list only has 14 units which isn´t how I have heard is prefered for GSC armies.
My counter to that setup considering the GSC player will give me first turn would be to charge the edges and watch the unit get pulled away from those Patriarch fearless bubbles. Watching then get run down after losing combat.
In the two games I've played against GSC both lists had a leman russ with a battle cannon so I'm thinking russ's may be thing for GSC. In the second game I wanted to test castling up vs the 3" assault but the stupid russ kept me hemmed up in cover until late game when I had to make some 50 yard dashes to objectives. Had I thought about it I would have deep struck my two units of stealth suits with a fusion blaster and try and get behind it. In my second game the GSC never rolled well enough to get beyond just getting in close to shoot and my EWO usually took care of anything that got within 24" which was actually bad for me because I wanted to see how a bubble wrapped tau list would do with an assault or two.
rawne2510 wrote:
Happy with how you have setup. Do you shoot as soon as you place or do you have to place everything first before shooting?
GSC units with the 5 result deploy and shoot immediately.
rawne2510 wrote:
My point about the deployment, was that even with the Rehati formation, you can fit in enough Horrors to bubble wrap the FMCs in 2 groups, ensuring that no matter how the GSC infiltrates, you'd only have to move the horrors out of the way for all the MCs to move 12" and take flight.
Just deploy DP1 & DP2 together, but about 9" away from Magnus & DP3. Surround each group with 2 layers of Horrors, with a 4-6" gap between layers.
Once the GSC infiltrates and kills some horrors, now you can simply move DP1 12" to the other side of Magnus & DP3, move DP3 to where DP1 was, and keep play hop-scotch until they have swapped places and all have moved at least 12". Done
Yes, you could but than you also have to realise that your FMC are facing to the sides so next turn the can only fly forward to the side. Also, the small bubble that your in makes it hard to do sum summoning.
Nova power also only kills the models within range so with all the GSC models 2 inch apart don't expect a lot of casualties. It's not possible to deploy an FMC in the middle of a bunch of units when you can only fly to the side.
rawne2510 wrote:I have to say. The army list only has 14 units which isn´t how I have heard is prefered for GSC armies.
My counter to that setup considering the GSC player will give me first turn would be to charge the edges and watch the unit get pulled away from those Patriarch fearless bubbles. Watching then get run down after losing combat.
could work but that also means that you need that unit to lose its leadership test and if the don't then you could be locked in combat awaiting the others.
Yes, you could but than you also have to realise that your FMC are facing to the sides so next turn the can only fly forward to the side. Also, the small bubble that your in makes it hard to do sum summoning.
Nova power also only kills the models within range so with all the GSC models 2 inch apart don't expect a lot of casualties. It's not possible to deploy an FMC in the middle of a bunch of units when you can only fly to the side.
Remember I still get the 90 degree turn before moving.
rawne2510 wrote:I have to say. The army list only has 14 units which isn´t how I have heard is prefered for GSC armies.
My counter to that setup considering the GSC player will give me first turn would be to charge the edges and watch the unit get pulled away from those Patriarch fearless bubbles. Watching then get run down after losing combat.
could work but that also means that you need that unit to lose its leadership test and if the don't then you could be locked in combat awaiting the others.
10 man unit gets hit by DP. loses probably 4 models. maybe 2-3 in range to attack so 9 attacks hitting on 5s maybe 1 wound. so -3 on Ld 8 likely to fail and will get swept. This on each side means you have lost a significant portion of that rotation. not taking into account any loses from psychic attacks.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The more units but smaller probably has a better chance.
Yes, you could but than you also have to realise that your FMC are facing to the sides so next turn the can only fly forward to the side. Also, the small bubble that your in makes it hard to do sum summoning.
Nova power also only kills the models within range so with all the GSC models 2 inch apart don't expect a lot of casualties. It's not possible to deploy an FMC in the middle of a bunch of units when you can only fly to the side.
Remember I still get the 90 degree turn before moving.
Indeed so you can not move back but only 90 degree to the side at most. Thats a limitation in the next round..
10 man unit gets hit by DP. loses probably 4 models. maybe 2-3 in range to attack so 9 attacks hitting on 5s maybe 1 wound. so -3 on Ld 8 likely to fail and will get swept. This on each side means you have lost a significant portion of that rotation. not taking into account any loses from psychic attacks.
With two Patriarch's there is a very good chance that there is at least one 12 inch bubble within the middle/flank. Don't expect that you can just sweep away 2 units because you will not pull a GSC unit with each model 2 inch apart outside a fearless bubble. Besides, When a D-prince hits first and kills about 4 models its also likely that the remaining GSC models cannot reach the D-prince anymore and run away. My Brood cycle units also get a +1 leadership if their within 6 inch of each other.
In the end I believe a GSC army like mine dominates the field and the objectives because Magus and the Daemon princes can only do so much. Summoned units get assaulted and witchfire powers can only kill so many cheap GSC units.
rawne2510 wrote: I have to say. The army list only has 14 units which isn´t how I have heard is prefered for GSC armies.
With GSC, you can either go wide with lots of small units, or you can go deep with a few big ones. Wide has an easier time against firepower armies whereas deep is slightly better at attrition. Both work. I prefer wide because I like having lots of "threats", even though the five-man units need to be doubled or tripled up to do any significant hurting.
My counter to that setup considering the GSC player will give me first turn would be to charge the edges and watch the unit get pulled away from those Patriarch fearless bubbles. Watching then get run down after losing combat.
Then his turn comes, your DPs are in the middle of the Rending mob, your options for Summoning are limited by the field of bodies within 12" of your summoners, and his CAD squads have free reign over the whole board behind the huge blob of GSC models in front of you. As for casualties from psychic powers, you might score some - but then you're not summoning, or if you are you're summoning a unit or two at most. So your entire army is about to get charged and pinned down by 60-odd GSC models, and there's nobody outside the circle of doom to help you out.
Trying to muscle a win against GSC with monsters and psychic powers doesn't work. It's as simple as that. If you see a GSC player deploying like this around you, you take to the air and don't land again until you've Summoned up some board control.
necron99 wrote: In the two games I've played against GSC both lists had a leman russ with a battle cannon so I'm thinking russ's may be thing for GSC.
Not as such. I've seen them used, but to me they just suck points away from Hybrid spam.
20 acolytes + Primus
20 acolytes
10 metamorphs with claws
10 metamorphs with claws
10 metamorphs with claws
2 x 5 acolytes from the CAD
Test infiltrate:
My subterranean uprising doesn't get those sixes but I did get 3x '5' result (free shooting) and 2x '6' result. Also only 2x '1' result.
At the left flank I shot with 2 units (5 result) and killed 4 blue horrors. After that I could drop the '6' result squad a little closer.
The whole deployment prevents the FMC from flying away and only one Daemon prince can move 12 inch if the horrors move out of the way. My units with magus are deployed in a way that the will be most likely be hit by any nova and that gives them a 4+ deny the witch.
So even if the daemons get first turn the will be struggling..
I have a 1 blue horror unit, and also a unit of screamer star with ML3 herald and a VSG. So I probably will deploy in a corner near a ruin or something. Blue horrors bubble wrap first layer, follow by the 2 cultist for layer 2 and 3. If you kill all the blue horrors in shooting phase, you will have to get thru the brimstones in assault phase because the split happens at the end of the shooting phase. I highly doubt you will get to the sorcerer that is attached to the cultist unit if I choose to deploy him. I will roll the LoC on the change discipline to hopefully also get the Nova power.
If I lose the all the horrors, that will leave me with 16 WC base. You said you have 8? Let say I roll a average of 3 on the D6, that'll give me 19 to your 11. If I throw 7 at the nova with Magnus, mathematically it should generate 5-6 WCs forcing you to throw all 11 in order to effectively deny it. That leaves me with 12 dices left, Fateweaver and potentially the LoC also knows the Nova power.... plus all the flicker fires, doom bolt, bolt of tz that I can throw at ya. If fatey gets lucky he can get another nova power from Pyromancy. The herald rolls on malefic and can potentially get dark flame which is a torrent power. The beauty of it all is that all the powers I listed requires only 1 WC to generate . And warpflame is a beech for low T units. Then I charge LoC, screamer star, and Magnus in assault phase and wipe out more of your units. If the screamer star multi-assault 2-3 units, you can expect to lose all those units, because 3++ or 2++ with re-rolls are just great.
Of your 14 units, I'm confident I can wipe out at least 6-7 turn 1 between psychic, shooting and assault phase base on the way you deployed.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh and if I wiped out majority of your frontal units to get me out of a effective assault range, all I have to do is swipe attack with the screamer star 24" towards your rear units preventing you from going back into the shadows on your turn.
While it is true that the Brims are created at the end of the phase, you are neglecting 2 things: 1) a Cult Ambush roll of '5' means the unit may infiltrate and immediately shoot out of sequence, meaning the Brims are made before their Shooting phase 2) If the entire unit of Blues is wiped, the Brims are created "immediately" and thus can be shot at if more GSC units have not fired.
Those combined could result in Blues being wiped at the Inflitrate step, then the Brims being wiped in their Shooting phase. This is probably unlikely given how many units need to roll the '5' and '6' results on cult ambush, plus the not-so stellar shooting then Horrors in cover can be pretty hard to kill. But it is possible.
The main thing you need to try is to deploy with the flak units at exactly the right distance away that any GSC units that roll a '6' cannot infiltrate within charge distance. The magic number is 10", unless they have Move Thru Cover, in which case you need to make it 12". You so this by creating a 6" bubble of unoccupied ground between the FMC and the horrors/cultists and make sure those have 2 layers. With the minimum distance the GSC units can get being 3", that means none of them can get within 10-12" of you FMC.
Keep in mind that this is only for the first turn so that you don't get tied up. After that, you fly and the flak untis can do whatever they want
If I lose the all the horrors, that will leave me with 16 WC base. You said you have 8? Let say I roll a average of 3 on the D6, that'll give me 19 to your 11. If I throw 7 at the nova with Magnus, mathematically it should generate 5-6 WCs forcing you to throw all 11 in order to effectively deny it. That leaves me with 12 dices left, Fateweaver and potentially the LoC also knows the Nova power.... plus all the flicker fires, doom bolt, bolt of tz that I can throw at ya. If fatey gets lucky he can get another nova power from Pyromancy. The herald rolls on malefic and can potentially get dark flame which is a torrent power. The beauty of it all is that all the powers I listed requires only 1 WC to generate . And warpflame is a beech for low T units. Then I charge LoC, screamer star, and Magnus in assault phase and wipe out more of your units. If the screamer star multi-assault 2-3 units, you can expect to lose all those units, because 3++ or 2++ with re-rolls are just great.
Of your 14 units, I'm confident I can wipe out at least 6-7 turn 1 between psychic, shooting and assault phase base on the way you deployed.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh and if I wiped out majority of your frontal units to get me out of a effective assault range, all I have to do is swipe attack with the screamer star 24" towards your rear units preventing you from going back into the shadows on your turn.
WOW, I never seen that much wishful thinking from a daemon player.
Why would I try to deny a nova that succeeded with 5/6 dice? With 19 warp dice You can maybe cast 4 powers and of those it's likely to be denied. And when you killed a fair amount of GSC cult models within 9 inch it's not really a guarantee that you can also charge 9+ inch.
And this deployment setting may not be the strategy against your army because you got more units on the ground. I rather ignore the FMC's and kill off your ground units and keep grabbing objectives.
Galef wrote: While it is true that the Brims are created at the end of the phase, you are neglecting 2 things:
1) a CUlt Ambush roll of '5' means the unit may infiltrate and shoot out of sequence, meaning the Brims are made before the shooting phase
2) If the entire unit of Blues is wiped, the Brims are created "immediately" and thus can be shot at if more GSC units have not fired.
Those combined could result in Blues being wiped at the Inflitrate step, then the Brims being wiped in their Shooting phase. This is probably unlikely given how many units need to roll the '5' and '6' results on cult ambush, plus the not-so stellar shooting then Horrors in cover can be pretty hard to kill.
But it is possible.
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Sure sure, that was just one scenario I posted and like I said I'm not worry about losing the horrors, if they live thats 1-2 extra WCs. Still pretty unlikely especially with the VSG, a good portion of his army should be outside the 12" bubble anyways.
If I lose the all the horrors, that will leave me with 16 WC base. You said you have 8? Let say I roll a average of 3 on the D6, that'll give me 19 to your 11. If I throw 7 at the nova with Magnus, mathematically it should generate 5-6 WCs forcing you to throw all 11 in order to effectively deny it. That leaves me with 12 dices left, Fateweaver and potentially the LoC also knows the Nova power.... plus all the flicker fires, doom bolt, bolt of tz that I can throw at ya. If fatey gets lucky he can get another nova power from Pyromancy. The herald rolls on malefic and can potentially get dark flame which is a torrent power. The beauty of it all is that all the powers I listed requires only 1 WC to generate . And warpflame is a beech for low T units. Then I charge LoC, screamer star, and Magnus in assault phase and wipe out more of your units. If the screamer star multi-assault 2-3 units, you can expect to lose all those units, because 3++ or 2++ with re-rolls are just great.
Of your 14 units, I'm confident I can wipe out at least 6-7 turn 1 between psychic, shooting and assault phase base on the way you deployed.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh and if I wiped out majority of your frontal units to get me out of a effective assault range, all I have to do is swipe attack with the screamer star 24" towards your rear units preventing you from going back into the shadows on your turn.
WOW, I never seen that much wishful thinking from a daemon player.
Why would I try to deny a nova that succeeded with 5/6 dice? With 19 warp dice You can maybe cast 4 powers and of those it's likely to be denied. And when you killed a fair amount of GSC cult models within 9 inch it's not really a guarantee that you can also charge 9+ inch.
And this deployment setting may not be the strategy against your army because you got more units on the ground. I rather ignore the FMC's and kill off your ground units and keep grabbing objectives.
I will have majority of my guys on the ground except Fateweaver. Like I said if you don't wanna deny, then you lose a bunch of stuff and I'll throw a bunch of other stuff at your units and save the Novas for last. So you either save your WC to deny the novas or at the beams, flicker fires and etc. Either way a bunch of your stuff close up is gonna die and if I'm out of assault range, turbo boost screamer star 24" towards your important unit to prevent them from going back into shadows
I agree I would stay as far away from those FMCs as possible and focus on killing the battery and holding objectives. That was the one thing that concerned me in my games which were both objective based. You really need to kill those GSC units down to the last man
Also, if I was a daemon player, I would not be summoning pink horrors or chariots. Summon daemonettes. I5 with two attacks each is just awful for GSC. That single squad of daemonettes can clear pretty big squads with relative easy and really only has to worry about overwatch.
Assuming you were smart and forced your opponent into the open by placing the objectives there. Otherwise the GSC player can just hide in terrain and laugh at you. As they should, you messed up. Didn't you?
While I agree with you assessment of Daemonette being great summon option against GSC, let's not discount Chariots. A torrent str5 flamer will toast some GSC pretty good. And Magnus can summon one per turn on 2s.
Galef wrote: While I agree with you assessment of Daemonette being great summon option against GSC, let's not discount Chariots. A torrent str5 flamer will toast some GSC pretty good. And Magnus can summon one per turn on 2s.
Yeah, the issue is the chariot has no way to deal with beta strike. Killing the GSC isn't such a huge a problem with daemons. But planting 10 daeamonettes in cover on an objective is incredibly difficult to dislodge without mass hypnosis.
When I played against a daemon player he summoned the chariots all over the place and they were devastating. However, it was my first game against daemons with GSC and if I played it again I don't think they would have been as huge a problem.
Galef wrote: While I agree with you assessment of Daemonette being great summon option against GSC, let's not discount Chariots. A torrent str5 flamer will toast some GSC pretty good.
I think the Daemonettes are the better throw here. Chariots might be an option late-game if you've managed to summon in enough Daemons to keep the GSC player occupied, but if you try to bring them in early-game - when the Ambushers have less targets - it'll just get punched to death by the first unit to roll a 6.
The Daemonettes aren't any kind of hard counter to GSC, but they're better than any of the other Malefic summons at killing Hybrids in CC. Not **much** better, but good enough that they'd be my go-to for summons here. They're also a better option than the Chariot because the GSC player can't just throw a single unit into them and be sure of success.
In objective missions, placements are huge, I always try to keep the objectives closer together against MSUs. That way any 12-24" movement can get a FMC from one obj to the next. Yeah he can contest his own but if he wants to win he will have risk sending units to contest yours.
For example in the ITC relic mission only has 2 objectives and the relic. All I have to do is hold down mine and dominate the middle, any units a GSC player sends to grab the relic will get roasted. If a GSC player wanna play the hiding game, then yes you keep summoning daemonettes and chariots to hold down objectives.
And lastly whats great about Rehati War Sect and my magnus list is that majority of the WC batteries are from the FMCs itself. Losing the horrors and a sorcerer is only 2 WCs.
SonsofVulkan wrote:For example in the ITC relic mission only has 2 objectives and the relic. All I have to do is hold down mine and dominate the middle, any units a GSC player sends to grab the relic will get roasted. If a GSC player wanna play the hiding game, then yes you keep summoning daemonettes and chariots to hold down objectives.
Why would the GSC play the hiding game in this mission? The would just deploy on top of the relic and start running with it and there is nothing you could do about it with all the rest of the army in your way/face. Every turn I would (try to) summon 20 neophytes and refresh the barrier. Sorry but I think that mission is almost an automatic loss.
When I read "i'am just going to use beam, flickering fire etc.." then daemon players also forget that most GSC units got first turn shrouded and possible night fight stealth. Combine that with cover or intervening models and thats a possible 2+ coversave.
Lol Is the summoning a primaris or does any of your psykers auto know it?? Because I can tell you At the minimum I have 2 novas, 3 beams, 1 chariot summoning, and 4 flicker fires(3 at BS5+).
You stack the middle, it means more of your units could be hit by novas. Are You gonna hide all your models in ruins turn 1? If you gonna bubble wrap the middle and to prevent me from moving toward the the middle, I'm sure some of your units will be in the open, that's where I'll shoot the beams and flicker fires.
And infantry can't run with the relic. You can move 6" with it starting turn 2. Not gonna argue anymore, I'm very confident in my list against GSC, the math is pretty good on my side.
SonsofVulkan wrote: Lol Is the summoning a primaris or does any of your psykers auto know it?? Because I can tell you At the minimum I have 2 novas, 3 beams, 1 chariot summoning, and 4 flicker fires(3 at BS5+).
You stack the middle, it means more of your units could be hit by novas. Are You gonna hide all your models in ruins turn 1? If you gonna bubble wrap the middle and to prevent me from moving toward the the middle, I'm sure some of your units will be in the open, that's where I'll shoot the beams and flicker fires.
And infantry can't run with the relic. You can move 6" with it starting turn 2. Not gonna argue anymore, I'm very confident in my list against GSC, the math is pretty good on my side.
Just a heads up, your Daemon Princes are Chaos space marines and do NOT know flickering fire. They get the CSM primaries.
SonsofVulkan wrote: I don't run rehati warsect. Omniscient oracles. Fatey, LoC and a small screamer star
I've been reading your posts about Magnus, Fateweaver, sorcerer, cultist, lord of change, VSG, screamerstar with herald, only one horror squad etc... what does your list specifically looks like at 1850 points? Because when I do the math I think you have been talking about two kinds of lists.
SonsofVulkan wrote: I don't run rehati warsect. Omniscient oracles. Fatey, LoC and a small screamer star
I've been reading your posts about Magnus, Fateweaver, sorcerer, cultist, lord of change, VSG, screamerstar with herald, only one horror squad etc... what does your list specifically looks like at 1850 points? Because when I do the math I think you have been talking about two kinds of lists.
I am running Rehati Warsect with CAD daemons.
By the sounds of it SonsofVulkan is running Omniscient oracles with CAD daemons and VSG
By the sounds of it SonsofVulkan is running Omniscient oracles with CAD daemons and VSG
But where does Magnus fit in? I was under the impression that Magnus is a chaos space marine/thousand sons LOW. Don't you need a Thousand sons CAD for this?
By the sounds of it SonsofVulkan is running Omniscient oracles with CAD daemons and VSG
But where does Magnus fit in? I was under the impression that Magnus is a chaos space marine/thousand sons LOW. Don't you need a Thousand sons CAD for this?
He didn´t have magnus. he was comenting on how he would deals with GSC army trying to box in his psychic horde of FMC
Automatically Appended Next Post: Its the fact that he has a similar formation with the Omnisecient Oracles to the rehati War sect. A name FMC and 2-3 additional ones.
SonsofVulkan wrote: In objective missions, placements are huge, I always try to keep the objectives closer together against MSUs. That way any 12-24" movement can get a FMC from one obj to the next. Yeah he can contest his own but if he wants to win he will have risk sending units to contest yours.
For example in the ITC relic mission only has 2 objectives and the relic. All I have to do is hold down mine and dominate the middle, any units a GSC player sends to grab the relic will get roasted. If a GSC player wanna play the hiding game, then yes you keep summoning daemonettes and chariots to hold down objectives.
And lastly whats great about Rehati War Sect and my magnus list is that majority of the WC batteries are from the FMCs itself. Losing the horrors and a sorcerer is only 2 WCs.
... with what? You have, what, 25 models in your entire army. GSC can have 30+ models in one formation.
shogun wrote: But where does Magnus fit in? I was under the impression that Magnus is a chaos space marine/thousand sons LOW. Don't you need a Thousand sons CAD for this?
No - Rehati War Sect is a Traitor Legions formation. You can take it as a stand-alone detachment.
SonsofVulkan wrote: In objective missions, placements are huge, I always try to keep the objectives closer together against MSUs. That way any 12-24" movement can get a FMC from one obj to the next. Yeah he can contest his own but if he wants to win he will have risk sending units to contest yours.
For example in the ITC relic mission only has 2 objectives and the relic. All I have to do is hold down mine and dominate the middle, any units a GSC player sends to grab the relic will get roasted. If a GSC player wanna play the hiding game, then yes you keep summoning daemonettes and chariots to hold down objectives.
And lastly whats great about Rehati War Sect and my magnus list is that majority of the WC batteries are from the FMCs itself. Losing the horrors and a sorcerer is only 2 WCs.
By the sounds of it SonsofVulkan is running Omniscient oracles with CAD daemons and VSG
But where does Magnus fit in? I was under the impression that Magnus is a chaos space marine/thousand sons LOW. Don't you need a Thousand sons CAD for this?
My list:
TSCAD:
Sorcerer: MoT,
10xCultist: MoT 10xCultist: MoT Magnus (warlord)
Void Shield Generator:3x Shields
Omniscent Oracles
Fateweaver
Lord of Change: ML3, Impossible Robe, staff of change
Allied DET
HoT-ML3, Grim, disc
5xScreamers
10xBlue Horrors
I played Nick Nanavati's Rehati warsect list over the weekend at his hosted tourney and tied. Both type has its strengths and capabilities.
SonsofVulkan wrote: In objective missions, placements are huge, I always try to keep the objectives closer together against MSUs. That way any 12-24" movement can get a FMC from one obj to the next. Yeah he can contest his own but if he wants to win he will have risk sending units to contest yours.
For example in the ITC relic mission only has 2 objectives and the relic. All I have to do is hold down mine and dominate the middle, any units a GSC player sends to grab the relic will get roasted. If a GSC player wanna play the hiding game, then yes you keep summoning daemonettes and chariots to hold down objectives.
And lastly whats great about Rehati War Sect and my magnus list is that majority of the WC batteries are from the FMCs itself. Losing the horrors and a sorcerer is only 2 WCs.
... with what? You have, what, 25 models in your entire army. GSC can have 30+ models in one formation.
By the end of turn 1 he is likely to have 50 - 60 models
Automatically Appended Next Post: even more if he is using pink horrors rather than blue ones
Well if a GSC army clumps up trying to hold a relic, I'd probably won't summon more than just a chariot. I'd throw everything into mind bullets. GSC players need to understand how devastating Tz Warp flare is, 9" Nova: S-D6, AP4, 2D6 hits with warp flame and ignore cover. Warpflame has 50% chance to cause a T3 unit to lose D3 more models.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Every 5-man acolyte, metamorph, hybrid squads within 9" taking 2D6 hits with no saves + potential D3 more wounds from a power that cost 1 WC....
Like I said earlier, best chance for GSC is to play the hiding game
Galef wrote: I think if you've got Magnus, summon the chariot. Otherwise, I agree, Daemonettes are the best choice.
Yup, that would be my assessment as well. Especially as I'm figuring out how damn useful mining lasers are (two shot lascannons at 24 inches). They're great at dealing with threats like chariot.
rawne2510 wrote: By the end of turn 1 he is likely to have 50 - 60 models
Automatically Appended Next Post: even more if he is using pink horrors rather than blue ones
Horrors. Right.
You realise the Acolytes are basically Genestealers, don't you? Metamorphs too, except they can have S6 for a couple of points extra. Sure, they have a lower WS and Initiative, but against Horrors that doesn't matter. Against Horrors, they're as good as Genestealers. You're not going to control or hold down anything against these dudes using Horrors.
SonsofVulkan wrote: GSC players need to understand how devastating Tz Warp flare is, 9" Nova: S-D6, AP4, 2D6 hits with warp flame and ignore cover. Warpflame has 50% chance to cause a T3 unit to lose D3 more models.
I think you need to appreciate how little GSC care about casualties, though. I can lose 20-30 models per turn, every turn, and it doesn't matter. By which I mean, I can lose that many models every turn and still win the game. If I lose thirty or forty models, but drag Magnus to within 9 inches of my army, I'll take that. Now your 650pt Magnus is stuck in combat with Neophytes forever and can't Nova me anymore. Well done. Unless he's flying I guess, but if he's flying I can chase him around the board.
Warpflame also has a 50% chance to give the unit FNP(6) - which becomes FNP(5) within 12" of the Iconward (or 24" if the unit is a Brood Cycle unit).
Like I said earlier, best chance for GSC is to play the hiding game
That would also work, but I can't see how playing aggressively would be any worse - none of the stuff you're suggesting is a hard counter to GSC aggression.
Galef wrote: Which is definitely a good reason to take the Rehati Warsect. There is no way to hide when all your spells do not require LoS.
Still need to be in range, though. Gonna fly your FMCs away from your Daemons so they can shoot my dudes in the corner? Sure, why not, right?
Blood letters (AP3 will kill them first), Daemonettes (rending will deal with them), plaguebearers (in cover so attack ahead of you charging through) all of which in the right location will deal with them before they get to attack.
Screamers for turbo boosting and stop the weakened units from going into shadows.
Screamers for turbo boosting and stop the weakened units from going into shadows.
Hmm. This brings up a good point. A Skyhost with 9 units of Sreamers would be pretty good at taking out MSUGSC. Turboboost over a few units to inflict Slash Attacks, then the survivors are too close to an enemy unit to hop back in reserve and probably don't want to be in combat with a unit that has so many S4 attacks.
Of course, this idea kinda falls apart if the GSC has larger units.
Have no Overwatch and strike simultaneously with my Hybrids at I4, so they're eating 100% of my Acolyte's attacks. That's 20 attacks if I run 5 dudes into them. I'll lose a few - maybe all 5, maybe less - but losing models is what GSC do.
Daemonettes (rending will deal with them)
I've said Daemonettes are worrisome - they hit first and have 2 attacks each, so you'd need maybe 10-15 Acolytes to get rid of them instead of 5-10. I'd still charge them. If I was playing Daemons I'd either be summoning them in groups, or I'd be using Flesh Hounds to bat for them.
plaguebearers (in cover so attack ahead of you charging through)
Acolytes and Metamorphs have grenades.
Screamers for turbo boosting and stop the weakened units from going into shadows.
Might stop a handful, but you haven't got enough Screamers to stop them all unless you're using your FMCs to help out, and if you're doing that you're summoning your Daemons nice and close to my dudes so I can charge them. You'll also lose the Screamers.
Galef wrote: Hmm. This brings up a good point. A Skyhost with 9 units of Sreamers would be pretty good at taking out MSUGSC. Turboboost over a few units to inflict Slash Attacks, then the survivors are too close to an enemy unit to hop back in reserve and probably don't want to be in combat with a unit that has so many S4 attacks.
It might work, but the survivors could then hop into close combat with your Screamers to avoid being shot and hold them in place. Whether you like your units being in close combat or not is irrelevant - if you're playing GSC then your units only work in CC, so it's where they need to be. Your job is to make sure you have enough models in the combat to do whatever job you want them to do, be it tar-pitting or killing stuff, which is easier if someone is running his units at you. It might be a worthwhile sacrifice if you can trap 60-odd percent of my army on the table, but I'm going to deploy to prevent that.
I have the misfortune of not being able to find a single Genestealer Cult player in my area to play me. Suuuuucks.
i have yet to face them or really absorb what they can do against ME. However, i did just run my yearly GT this weekend and I did get to see them as i flitted about and they can take up a HELL of a lot of room on the board. sheesh. I have pics o nthe Facebook page if you want to see one ridiculous example. The guy was trying to cut off any drop pods from having a landing zone (it didnt work in the end).
I am quite intrigued by this thread.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Neophyte2012 wrote: Tau should be one of the relatively easy army to use in fighting against GSC, cheap bubbles as Kroots, especially when getting buffed overwatch. High mobility in Jet Pack Suits, massed ignore cover options, and most importantly, the EWO.
EWO is good but ti depends on what units are firing it. EWO has a disadvantage that its operating without markerlight support so its a REAL choice as to whether you want to use it against a cover hugging force.
The Ghostkeels i nthe Optimized Stealth Cadres are probably a very potent answer. not only can they actually weather a normal sized Genestealer charge (and i use an Ethereal to keep them from running) they can absiolutely end entire units of Genestealer (I would think from what i have seen) cult guys in a single round. Hitting on BS 5 at STR 7 and 8? Yahoo. Followed by Overwatch? no problem. And while Ghostkeels aren't going to win the Gold Medal for melee proficiency, they do actually hurt a little when they hit. It might be an EXCELLENT selection to try. The Stealthsuits en masses can fire off 24 STR 5 shots, and with just one Markerlight they hit on 2's. An Optimized Stealth Cadre can therefore clear out a nice quadrant in pretty short order.
The list i took to the last GT has this basic setup and a StormSurge that stands behind them and cleans up what they cannot. I use solo Flamer suits for Obsec and would like to have more of them but hey what can ya do? Only so many points in the day. Still they can weaken a unit enough that the StormSurge and company can finish them entire. My army runs on very very little Markerlight support (I had just 5 pathfinders and 3 Firesight Marksmen) so the Genestealers can try to take those out first but the army is highly independent of the need for Markerlights anyways.
All in all i think an optimized Stealth Cadre would be a very strong option vs. the Geenstealer cult.
The riptide EWO of 8 (mayne 4 can't remember with riptides) twin linked ignores cover missile will do damage. sane for storm surge.
Automatically Appended Next Post: BBAP.
You have to remember all these summoned units are free so I probably care even less about them than you do about your stuff.
Are blast charges frag grenades then (didn't know that). screamers and the FMC will stop enough that are damaged as I would want to stop any regening. If they charge my screamers fine I haven't lost any points
Don't forget that genestealers can summon too! We get way more wounds and firepower out of ours as well. We just have less dice to do it. Personally, I have 12 dice in my list and I have a 90+ percent chance of getting at least one summoning.
I think I'd rather face the daemon princes than fateweaver and loc. The daemon princes get shrieks, which is annoying, but as a majority of my army is ld 8,9, or 10. I don't think that's too bad. Fateweaver gets a nova, possibly 2, LoC can get one as well. I thihnk the flickering fire will add up better than the shrieks over the course of the game.
Also, I think I have enough models completely block off flight paths of the fmcs and I'd rather face a daemon prince in close combat over a lord of change. I have twice the chance of wounding and less wounds. Even though they have a 3+ armor.
I wouldn't worry about MSU daemons so much as I can just sit in terrain and weather the storm pretty effectively. I played my army against double gore pack which is WAY better against GSC then murderhorde or screamers and still was killing units pretty easily. The metamorphs really shined in this match up.
All that being said, my only strategy against riptides has been have more bodies than they have bullets. So far it has not worked. Anyone else's guess is as good as mine on how to play against pure tau.
rawne2510 wrote: By the end of turn 1 he is likely to have 50 - 60 models
Automatically Appended Next Post: even more if he is using pink horrors rather than blue ones
Horrors. Right.
You realise the Acolytes are basically Genestealers, don't you? Metamorphs too, except they can have S6 for a couple of points extra. Sure, they have a lower WS and Initiative, but against Horrors that doesn't matter. Against Horrors, they're as good as Genestealers. You're not going to control or hold down anything against these dudes using Horrors.
SonsofVulkan wrote: GSC players need to understand how devastating Tz Warp flare is, 9" Nova: S-D6, AP4, 2D6 hits with warp flame and ignore cover. Warpflame has 50% chance to cause a T3 unit to lose D3 more models.
I think you need to appreciate how little GSC care about casualties, though. I can lose 20-30 models per turn, every turn, and it doesn't matter. By which I mean, I can lose that many models every turn and still win the game. If I lose thirty or forty models, but drag Magnus to within 9 inches of my army, I'll take that. Now your 650pt Magnus is stuck in combat with Neophytes forever and can't Nova me anymore. Well done. Unless he's flying I guess, but if he's flying I can chase him around the board.
Warpflame also has a 50% chance to give the unit FNP(6) - which becomes FNP(5) within 12" of the Iconward (or 24" if the unit is a Brood Cycle unit).
Like I said earlier, best chance for GSC is to play the hiding game
That would also work, but I can't see how playing aggressively would be any worse - none of the stuff you're suggesting is a hard counter to GSC aggression.
Galef wrote: Which is definitely a good reason to take the Rehati Warsect. There is no way to hide when all your spells do not require LoS.
Still need to be in range, though. Gonna fly your FMCs away from your Daemons so they can shoot my dudes in the corner? Sure, why not, right?
How many models do you have in your army? 120 it don't matter? I'm pretty sure if your losing 30+ a turn and can't hold a objective because I keep wiping units off you will lose maelstrom in ITC and then lose primary because you don't have enough units by turn 5 to contest to win the game.
If somehow I let you charge a big unit into Magnus, I have Fatey who can Nova and affect your guys in combat. And I still have a screamer star and a LoC on the ground too.
Besides the First Curse I've seen a unit of 20 stealers and the patriarch I haven't seen many GSC lists out there with big blobs of acolytes. Unless your depending summoning? Too much assumptions.... and then assume you get a 6 for that summoned unit? I can assume that LoC can get a Nova and Fatey gets a second and the Herald gets dark flame?
Well, I have 160, I summon another 40 if I need it. I don't start really losing models till turn 2. So yeah, losing 30 models a turn for 2-5 isn't completely unreasonable if that means I have 80 left over on turn 5. Also, there's a good chance I'm getting back 10-15 models throughout the game.
Also, the biggest way of surviving is just leaving. Magnus or fateweaver flies to one side of the board. Okay, leave the 15 models over there that can't leave, everyone else in range in reserves. So now that turn you can't kill more than that.
I've managed to dodge 5 flyrants prettyt effectively till turn 4 so I think I can do it with only magnus and maybe some novas to watch out for.
Edit: this does hurt me in maelstrom depending on what mission. But since (for ITC) one of the maelstroms is "have a unit in the enemy deployment zone" I can usually manage that. If it's kill a unit, well you're summoning, so I can almost certainly do that. If it's holding an objective. Well that might be tough if I rolled poorly. Then again, I can contest your objectives pretty reliably. What I've noticed is that both mine and my opponents maelstrom score is low(aside from kill three units!)
vercingatorix wrote: Well, I have 160, I summon another 40 if I need it. I don't start really losing models till turn 2. So yeah, losing 30 models a turn for 2-5 isn't completely unreasonable if that means I have 80 left over on turn 5. Also, there's a good chance I'm getting back 10-15 models throughout the game.
Also, the biggest way of surviving is just leaving. Magnus or fateweaver flies to one side of the board. Okay, leave the 15 models over there that can't leave, everyone else in range in reserves. So now that turn you can't kill more than that.
I've managed to dodge 5 flyrants prettyt effectively till turn 4 so I think I can do it with only magnus and maybe some novas to watch out for.
Edit: this does hurt me in maelstrom depending on what mission. But since (for ITC) one of the maelstroms is "have a unit in the enemy deployment zone" I can usually manage that. If it's kill a unit, well you're summoning, so I can almost certainly do that. If it's holding an objective. Well that might be tough if I rolled poorly. Then again, I can contest your objectives pretty reliably. What I've noticed is that both mine and my opponents maelstrom score is low(aside from kill three units!)
Don't expect good players to chase after your units if you play the hiding game, we play to the mission. Going back to the Relic Mission, if a GSC players decides to stack the middle on the relic, they'll be loosing a lot of models even with shroud first turn, even more after that.
I really don't want to list tailor but...I think we will see these guys more and more...to the point that I ripped off the TL fusion guns from the keels and gave them the default flamers instead. I've also taken more fire warriors to try and create a 4 layer bubble for the rest of the army - couldn't fit the stealth suits in the bubble so I guess they'll be deep striking. The following is what I'm thinking of so far as a TAC list. For those unfamiliar with Tau the detachment increases supportive fire from 6" to 12" for overwatching and the hunter cadre allows the units to share marker light support so I can get away with a smaller number of 'lights. The commander hangs with the ML drones making them BS5 and the sniper drone controllers are bs5 so you have a really good chance of lighting up two units. I picked up the turrets for the fire warriors mostly because I've never used them but the thought of having 4 30" SMS hanging out in different areas of the board just sounds silly. Really wish I could have gotten an ethereal in there...ld 10 bubble is the bomb and giving most of my guns a +1 shot at half range is awesome sauce but he's not available in the Hunter Cadre formation.
vercingatorix wrote: Well, I have 160, I summon another 40 if I need it. I don't start really losing models till turn 2. So yeah, losing 30 models a turn for 2-5 isn't completely unreasonable if that means I have 80 left over on turn 5. Also, there's a good chance I'm getting back 10-15 models throughout the game.
Also, the biggest way of surviving is just leaving. Magnus or fateweaver flies to one side of the board. Okay, leave the 15 models over there that can't leave, everyone else in range in reserves. So now that turn you can't kill more than that.
I've managed to dodge 5 flyrants prettyt effectively till turn 4 so I think I can do it with only magnus and maybe some novas to watch out for.
Edit: this does hurt me in maelstrom depending on what mission. But since (for ITC) one of the maelstroms is "have a unit in the enemy deployment zone" I can usually manage that. If it's kill a unit, well you're summoning, so I can almost certainly do that. If it's holding an objective. Well that might be tough if I rolled poorly. Then again, I can contest your objectives pretty reliably. What I've noticed is that both mine and my opponents maelstrom score is low(aside from kill three units!)
Don't expect good players to chase after your units if you play the hiding game, we play to the mission. Going back to the Relic Mission, if a GSC players decides to stack the middle on the relic, they'll be loosing a lot of models even with shroud first turn, even more after that.
Yeah, relic isn't a super great mission for me. I'd probably have to try and pin your corner with board control and lose a lot of models and hope I rolled enough summoning to keep the body count high. It's not perfect, but I think I can make a game of it. But there's plenty of other missions out there!
I think you may be reading my tone as "This is obviously how I'd win" when I intend it as "Well, if that's who I drew, I think this is how I'd play it". Also, I played the 5 flyrant list in relic and with enough models you can force fliers to stay pretty far away. Peel away a layer at a time with novas and summoning.
list tailoring is different than adapting. List tailoring is when you show up and then make a list to fight what you see. thats different from adapting, which is what you should do, as the game changes. Lists change when new threats are possible.
rawne2510 wrote: You have to remember all these summoned units are free so I probably care even less about them than you do about your stuff.
Difference being I have access to my 130-odd dudes from turn 1 onwards. You need to find a way to call yours in (via psychic tests) without my dudes eating them as they arrive piecemeal. Hard to build up any "control", or "dominate" stuff, or even "hold down" anything when your dudes are dying as they arrive. Them being free is all well and good, but if they get swiped as soon as they land then you've gotten what you paid for, I guess. At best you've wasted 4-5 psychic dice to kill a few Acolytes, when you could've Nova'd and killed 10-20. At worst you've killed nothing because you summoned Horrors.
screamers and the FMC will stop enough that are damaged as I would want to stop any regening. If they charge my screamers fine I haven't lost any points
... which works, but doing it at deployment isn't a good idea. I can see it coming and deploy to stop it, which costs you the Screamers without affecting me much.
I'm not saying "Daemons suck and can't beat my mighty GSC". I'm saying you can't just throw Magnus on the table at the head of some FMCs and expect to muscle a win with Novas and Turbo Boosting Screamers. Shooting casualties, close combat and silly RttS denial shenanigans at deployment are all easy things for GSC to cope with - the trick in this thread is to find stuff that's difficult for GSC to answer. Blocking RttS is one thing, but that's universal. With Tzeentch Daemons specifically I'd be looking to build up control of a board quarter with lots of Daemonettes and Flesh Hounds, then expand to a half, then use what I've got as a shield to bring in stuff like Chariots and to threaten the rest of the table so he can't keep capping flags out of Ongoing Reserve. Keep the Screamers back to act as a jump-in for my Daemonettes and Hounds on turns 1 and 2, then if they're still alive you can start using them to block RttS as they become less important once you've built up your complement of Hounds (although keeping a couple handy to steal Linebreaker isn't a bad idea - I always get Linebreaker with my GSC so if you can't also get it it's an easy point for me).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SonsofVulkan wrote: How many models do you have in your army? 120 it don't matter? I'm pretty sure if your losing 30+ a turn and can't hold a objective because I keep wiping units off you will lose maelstrom in ITC and then lose primary because you don't have enough units by turn 5 to contest to win the game
120 if I bring my 5 ML2 Patriarchs (and my ML2/ Crouchling Magus, but we don't talk about him). 150 if I only bring three Patriarchs, which I don't like to do because they have a tendency to die and I like having 12 psychic dice. That's not the whole story though, because I get d6 dudes back for my Insurrection units every time I pull them into Ongoing Reserve. With Summoning I wouldn't even notice 30 casualties a turn. 60 is worrying, but the only army I've seen pull that off is un-Hypnotised Tau. I don't think Nova Daemons have the firepower to pull that off, unless I stack my entire army on top of itself, and why would I do that?
I use 5-man CAD squads to nab objectives - if they're holding it at the end of my turn I get the VP, if you wipe them out you've used one (or two) of your 17 shooting attacks to kill a 5-man Acolyte squad, and if you don't wipe them out they go back into Ambush reserve and nab another flag later. Probably Linebreaker too. They're cheeky that way.
If somehow I let you charge a big unit into Magnus, I have Fatey who can Nova and affect your guys in combat. And I still have a screamer star and a LoC on the ground too.
I don't run big units - small units are harder to D-Thirst and get more dudes back when they RttS. Like I've said before, I wouldn't charge Magnus unless I had no choice or had a good shot at tying him up for 2-3 turns/ killing him. Not sure why you imagine I'd be worried about a Lord of Change when my dudes can kill Wraithknights, but hey. I've never been impressed by Screamerstars - if the Grimoire holds and Kairos can rustle up a decent Warp Storm result they can be tough to kill, but I've seen them fluff some pretty egregious combats before now. They can play with the Neophytes while I kill the Lord of Change and all the summons.
Besides the First Curse I've seen a unit of 20 stealers and the patriarch I haven't seen many GSC lists out there with big blobs of acolytes
Shogun runs big Acolyte units. I don't - I run 5-mans, although I see the attraction of big blobs. The 20-man Acolyte blob is putting out the same number of S4 Rending attacks as the First Curse would be - i.e. 80 attacks on the charge - but it costs 110pts less. I know, I know - WS4, I4, T3, no invul, no Stealth, yadda yadda. Thing is, that 110pts he saves by not bringing the First Curse is 10 Metamorphs with Claws (gives S6 in CC) - that's another 40 Rending attacks (at S6 from the Claws), another 10 wounds, and another 1 or 2 rolls on the Ambush table. If you don't like crab-claw dudes you can squeeze another 10pts from somehwere and bring 15 more Acolytes for 120pts.
Best of all, all of these dudes have grenades. I think anyone running Stealer-spam against a Magnus army is going to have a bad time unless they get lucky and roll up Flesh Hooks.
Unless your depending summoning? Too much assumptions.... and then assume you get a 6 for that summoned unit? I can assume that LoC can get a Nova and Fatey gets a second and the Herald gets dark flame?
I have 13 psychic powers to roll - is it unreasonable to assume I'll get a 6 on one of those dice? Let's say it is, because I've managed to miss it on 13 dice before. That's still 6 Mass Hypnosis I can chuck at your dudes, plus whatever else I decide to roll for. Your shooting isn't particular scary as it is - it'd be even less so when it's all coming in at BS2 or 3, and you're suddenly relying on ZOMGOSSOM 9" Novas to do all your damage because if mighty Magnus, the Daemon Primarch of Prospero, lands to try and melee me he'll be swinging twice at Initiative 1 EDIT - Sorry; swinging once at Initiative 2, hitting my dudes on a 5+.
A more spurious assumption is that you'll be able to psyker-up 40+ casualties a turn whilst also summoning in enough Daemons that my dudes can't just kill them all as they arrive. If I've learned nothing else playing Daemons it's that you never have enough dice to do both in the required quantities no matter how many Mastery levels you stack. Maybe Magnus changes that. Maybe he doesn't. Either way I'm still not worried by him.
tl;dr - You can't bully a win out of Genestealer Cults with Tzeentch Daemons, and nobody cares that you can Nova into combat.
You know how many times I roll 3-4 ML3 daemon psykers on malefic and failed to get a single cursed earth? I pretty much stop assuming things, my game play is based on what I guarantee to have and potential worst case scenarios.
Most GSC players I see online and in RL are all optimistic about rolling 6s on the ambush table and then they actually don't in a real game and end up losing.
Who are you going to use mass hypnosis on? The unit of horrors? The cultists? All my psykers are ML3+, everyone will deny on 4+ (3+ for Magnus) and I have more base WC than you.
I still haven't heard anybody giving me a reliable way for GSC to win the relic mission against Magnus lists. If I overload the middle and summoned 4-5 units of daemonettes and chariots to bubble wrap on top of a screamer star with 2++ re-rolls, how are you going to win primary? You can't even do a last turn ambush to contest effectively. Since 1-5 on the ambush table forces you to be 6" away from an enemy unit. If my bubble wrap is 10-12" you'll be up to 18" away from the relic. Again you can always ambush all your dudes onto the relic turn 1, then basically your sacrificing them from the gecko.
Lets look at the ITC Scouring mission. Half of the maelstrom objectives are KPs, a good Magnus player can potentially get 3 maelstrom pts a turn by killing 3 units. So are you gonna give up maelstrom or place units on objectives for us to kill? If you wanna give up maelstrom and go for the primary then again you gonna have to play the hiding game. I'll be summoning units after units to bubble wrap the 3 pts objectives supported by screamer star, Magnus, and LoC.
SonsofVulkan wrote: You know how many times I roll 3-4 ML3 daemon psykers on malefic and failed to get a single cursed earth? I pretty much stop assuming things, my game play is based on what I guarantee to have and potential worst case scenarios.
Most GSC players I see online and in RL are all optimistic about rolling 6s on the ambush table and then they actually don't in a real game and end up losing.
Who are you going to use mass hypnosis on? The unit of horrors? The cultists? All my psykers are ML3+, everyone will deny on 4+ (3+ for Magnus) and I have more base WC than you.
I still haven't heard anybody giving me a reliable way for GSC to win the relic mission against Magnus lists. If I overload the middle and summoned 4-5 units of daemonettes and chariots to bubble wrap on top of a screamer star with 2++ re-rolls, how are you going to win primary? You can't even do a last turn ambush to contest effectively. Since 1-5 on the ambush table forces you to be 6" away from an enemy unit. If my bubble wrap is 10-12" you'll be up to 18" away from the relic. Again you can always ambush all your dudes onto the relic turn 1, then basically your sacrificing them from the gecko.
Lets look at the ITC Scouring mission. Half of the maelstrom objectives are KPs, a good Magnus player can potentially get 3 maelstrom pts a turn by killing 3 units. So are you gonna give up maelstrom or place units on objectives for us to kill? If you wanna give up maelstrom and go for the primary then again you gonna have to play the hiding game. I'll be summoning units after units to bubble wrap the 3 pts objectives supported by screamer star, Magnus, and LoC.
I love this post. It summarizes everything I see as wrong about GSC, their squads get too bunched up and they rely too much on good rolls on the ambush table.
The one game I played against GSC, I killed a quarter of their army with Last Memory of the Yuranthos on the second turn and destroyed several units that failed their morale checks. From that point, everything was massed charges which did not do too well against Terminators with heavy flamers. I play Black Legion and almost never table an opponent, this was the first time that happened in years.
SonsofVulkan wrote: You know how many times I roll 3-4 ML3 daemon psykers on malefic and failed to get a single cursed earth? I pretty much stop assuming things, my game play is based on what I guarantee to have and potential worst case scenarios.
Same here, that's why I'm talking about the Cult Insurrection reinforcements and not Telepathic Summons. Summons is handy, but you can't rely on it, and even if you do get it you can't count on it against psyker-heavy armies. RttS-Reinforce is the best way to get models back.
Most GSC players I see online and in RL are all optimistic about rolling 6s on the ambush table and then they actually don't in a real game and end up losing.
... which is silly, and the reason I don't like big units or Stealer spam. Sixes are handy, but realistically 2-5 is what you're rolling most of the time so that's what you should be building your army around. Even still, once you start rolling 15+ dice you're going to get a six or two most of the time, and against Daemons a six or two is all you really need because nothing aside from the monsters is going to beat ten of your dudes in CC, and even the monsters aren't a nailed-on certainty.
Against Cultists and Sorcerors a single 6 is enough to hurt.
Who are you going to use mass hypnosis on? The unit of horrors? The cultists? All my psykers are ML3+, everyone will deny on 4+ (3+ for Magnus) and I have more base WC than you.
I don't really need it to kill the Lord of Change or Kairos, or even to hold Magnus in place if I get the chance, so probably the Screamerstar. Throw six dice at that, and that leaves me a measly 6+d6 to Summon with.
Then again it's a semi-star with 5 models, which isn't a great deal of killing power. Maybe just use it on any Daemons you summon. Two casts on a unit of Daemonettes and their sole advantage over my dudes in CC (I5) is gone.
I still haven't heard anybody giving me a reliable way for GSC to win the relic mission against Magnus lists.
Grab the Relic and drag it into a corner. Same way everyone else wins Relic missions against monster mash armies with no board presence.
If I overload the middle
With what? Your dudes have to deploy in your DZ. The GSC player can drop his more or less anywhere within nine inches of your dudes. The initiative is with him all the way.
So the GSC player sets up a forest of Neophytes in the middle. What do now? "I will fly into them and use mighty Nova to kill everyone!" - they're nine inches from you. If you set up on the edge of the DZ (which I would, because it's the only way to prevent the GSC deploying me into a corner) then either you can't move 12 inches and hence can't Swoop unless you've got Magnus and Kairos mounded on stalks, or you're Swooping away from the centre and your Novas aren't doing what you want them to do and your monsters are heading for the table edge.
So, you walk Magnus and Kairos into the middle and start Nova'ing away the Neophytes. Actually, let's assume everyone has a Nova. That's five Novas. Let's also say everyone can get close enough to my Neophyte forest to start Novaing models off the Relic. So you want to Nova away the GSC. You also want to Summon. Magnus is pretty dependable, so he can Summon on 3 dice, 4 tops - I know from experience that Kairos is a whiffing-ass gak-bird, so he wants 5-7 dice to land a 3WC power. LoC and Herald likewise. You're also casting Cursed Earth because you want to Summon but don't want to mishap. You have 16+d6 dice. The GSC have 12+d6, plus Adamantium Will. That will Deny three, maybe four Novas reliably enough if you land them on singles, so if you want to Nova you need to throw more and 2-3 dice at the power. How many units are you actually going to be Summoning on turn one? Maybe enough to force the GSC forces out of the centre on turn two, which leaves you four turns to set up the elaborate Daemonette corral you're planning. Or maybe it won't be enough to forcde the GSC player out of the centre, in which case you'll have to try again on turn two, except this time he'll be pushing back.
That's if you go first. If you go second the GSC consolidate control of the centre, their Neophyte forest takes a couple of steps forward, and now you're stuck trying to fight out of your own DZ. Then spare units - the ones you seem to think you can "wipe out" on top of everything else - start capping flags in uncontested areas of the table while your narrow-ass army is stuck trying to unfudge itself in the centre.
tl;dr - You can't bully a win out of GSC with Magnus, even if you bring Kairos and a 6-model Screamer-"star".
2++ re-rolls
You're assuming the Grimoire won't whiff, then? It doesn't usually, but 33% is not 0%. So much for worst case scenarios.
Either way you can't bubblewrap with a single unit, not even if it has a 2++. I put my 6s on one side and my 3-5s on the other; I charge it with the 6s, then next turn anything in the 3-5 pile that survives walks in and eats the gooey centre.
Not that that would matter because your Screamer-star is going to be too busy to be a part of this, but there it is anyway.
Lets look at the ITC Scouring mission. Half of the maelstrom objectives are KPs
I'm not sure "hope for a KP mission" is the best anti-Genestealer advice because most missions aren't KP-based. Not much you can really do about KP when your army's concept involves easy to kill models being killed easily though. You can try and trade KPs, but most armies are much smaller than GSC so the trade is generally 2 or 3 to 1 in your opponent's favour. Win the other half of the scenario is the best thing to do, I think. Or table your opponent.
So lets play a game with relic and that GSC goes first.
So this is your army in the left corner in sum ruins:
Pink horror bubble wrap, small screamerstar, Magnus, fateweaver, LOC and a unit cultist with sorcerer in the back.(other cultist unit in reserve).
Then I deploy/cult ambush my big blob.
Only my primus/20 acolyte unit gets a 6 (that's 3xd6 so not really that surprising) and most other units deploy outside 6 inch. Other big acolyte unit ets outflank but on the right side. 1 patriarch with 10 acolytes and 1 magus with 10 neophytes outflank on the wrong side.
First turn: all my units move a little closer but still keep the bubble big enough to make sure no FMC can fly to the other side. Big unit that can assault move in towards the horrors.
Psychic phase: with 10 dice against 21 I pull of a big summoning and deploy (result 3) 20 neophytes behind/between the big acolyte unit that is about to assault. This way when the acolytes assault I can make sure the gap stays sealed.
20 acolytes with 80 attacks + zealot simply kills all horrors and 24 blue horrors appear. The can only be deployed between all other tzeentch units:
Acolytes consolidate 5 inch to close the gap and move towards the patriarch to keep fearless.
Meanwhile I returned my two acolyte units (CAD) + 5 acolyte unit that got a '1' result + 5 genestealers + 10 metamorphs to the shadow.
Now you got a big bunch of models that cannot fly over and cannot switch sides with other models. It's not possible to summon sum thing without mishap and nova's can only kill the first models with 9 inch. Also the GSC models that are already standing in the ruin got a 2+ coversave.
Like BBAP is saying: it's not like I think that GSC is an automatic win but I think the can give run for your money.
'Too much assumptions....' You make a lot of assumptions yourself. What if both your Nova's only got Strenght 1/2? What if your warp storm gives you a negative result? With GSC you can afford to lose sum models and i will always got a big bunch of them in your face, but with Daemons you know it can be sunny or rainy.
I think the best thing about this thread is that it is allowing us (Daemon & GSC players alike) to think out all the scenarios.
I admit that if I had not read this, I would not have thought about the GSC units infiltrating in a way that would prevent flying on turn 1. Now that I know that is possible, I can deploy accordingly (i.e. not in 1 single group, but in 2 groups so that the FMCs could "switch places" and get into the air) It also made me realize that I have to be more adaptive when facing GSCs as they do not play like any other army that exists (although the similarities to Daemons cannot be ignored)
So I'd just like to say thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread so far, It has been great.
I think you miss understand the capability of Magnus casting on 2s. With the rest of rehati formation on 3s. Don´t remember the buff from the omniescence formation maybe re-roll 1s.
Cast syphon magic with 2 dice. He will easily get those 2 back from the other spells cast. denying on 6+
Maybe cast a few low charge warpflame beams around the place and see if you want to try to deny them on 6+ (3 dice each)
lets try 2 novas (its WC1) from change. these you do get your buffed DtW 4+ (4 dice each)
What ever dice I got back from syphon magic I now use to cast nova with Magnus (3-4 dice)
Automatically Appended Next Post: @ shogun
With a setup like that and your first turn as you described. all my FMC would fly off the board and I would launch the screamers up the short board edge turbo boosting over the top and probably hitting your 5 or 10 man unit to try and kill it from the slashes.
Any horror units would charge your smaller units to try and stop them going off the board and hoping for a nice mid roll on the warp storm table to start smashing some units (knowing that you are likely to put them back into the shadows to recoup your loses.
Turn 2 you have little to go after and I will get all flyers back on to do the damage where you won´t be able to hold me anywhere anymore.
With a setup like that and your first turn as you described. all my FMC would fly off the board and I would launch the screamers up the short board edge turbo boosting over the top and probably hitting your 5 or 10 man unit to try and kill it from the slashes.
Any horror units would charge your smaller units to try and stop them going off the board and hoping for a nice mid roll on the warp storm table to start smashing some units (knowing that you are likely to put them back into the shadows to recoup your loses.
Turn 2 you have little to go after and I will get all flyers back on to do the damage where you won´t be able to hold me anywhere anymore.
Shogun, I know you've already set up the board several times but I want to see it. You think you could block off the whole deployment zone so all of his guys instantly die? I'm nearly certain you can do it on the long board edge. Also, the screamers are pretty screwed in that scenario. The GSC player definitely has the pistols required to shoot his way through buffer and he only needs to link one guy in assault with the screamers to make them lose combat by a zillion. Even a 2+ rerollable doesn't like 2d6 wounds that ignore invul.
With a setup like that and your first turn as you described. all my FMC would fly off the board and I would launch the screamers up the short board edge turbo boosting over the top and probably hitting your 5 or 10 man unit to try and kill it from the slashes.
Any horror units would charge your smaller units to try and stop them going off the board and hoping for a nice mid roll on the warp storm table to start smashing some units (knowing that you are likely to put them back into the shadows to recoup your loses.
Turn 2 you have little to go after and I will get all flyers back on to do the damage where you won´t be able to hold me anywhere anymore.
So those FMC go away and those horrors attack a small GSC unit and the screamers slash a unit and move back in the ruin (because the cannot cross over to the other side)?
Next turn my GSC units assaults the horrors + screamerstar (multi assault) and watch those screamers die because of failing instability test. I would even stay on the field for killing of those horrors and herald to make sure those warp charge dice go down. Even my 5 GSC that are arriving from the shadow could possibly attack those cultist with sorcerer.
If the horrors + sorcerer + herald goes down then The FMC don't got enough warp charge to stop me from taking the relic.
vercingatorix wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post: @ shogun
Shogun, I know you've already set up the board several times but I want to see it. You think you could block off the whole deployment zone so all of his guys instantly die?
If the leave the table, you mean? You question if it is possible to block the whole board (24 inch) second turn, in this scenario?
necron99 wrote: Just played against the new kids on the block at a tournament this weekend. Let me tell you for guardsman they are brutal. I'm playing Tau right now but in general what are things you can do to mitigate their shenanigans with a TAC list? One thing that was somewhat useful for me was supportive fire. Some flamers would have helped. Generically would be useful to circle the wagon as it were and bubble wrap you're entire army until GSC makes their turn two shooting and assaulting? Would servo skulls do anything (don't have the skulls rules handy)?
Flamers, especially now for Tau with the Supporting Fire rules, would be a godsend.
I'm personally a fan of the Grav-Inhibitor Drone on a unit of Pathfinders with Darkstrider in it. Leave them out as bait for a charge, fire Overwatch, screw up the charge distance and retreat.
When Genestealer Cults came out, Chaos Marines were still using Traitor's Hate/the Cyclopea Cabal. One of the first things that came to mind was Last Memory of the Yuranthos. It's basically paying for an extra Mastery Level, plus an extra 5 points to guarantee you know Sunburst, and while the risky versions are possible, you don't *have* to cast them. I just simply envisioned that having the tool on-hand with some sacrificial grunts would make it helpful for clearing out the chaff (especially extreme MSU chaff).
As mentioned earlier, I seriously doubt attempting to counter-null GSC is a good idea. I still imagine the best defense is a large corner-castle which gradually fans out to control the map.
vercingatorix wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post: @ shogun
Shogun, I know you've already set up the board several times but I want to see it. You think you could block off the whole deployment zone so all of his guys instantly die?
If the leave the table, you mean? You question if it is possible to block the whole board (24 inch) second turn, in this scenario?
yup, basically. Remember the most efficient board coverage is offsetting the rows to make equilateral triangles. If you look at the large blast template, there is a ring just inside the outer layer which as the exact dimension you need to cover to disallow a FMC base from landing.
I think you have enough guys in an average GSC infantry army.
I run a little infantry heavy at 160 models but I think that's unusual.
There is no way that a GSC which is trying to bubble wrap my FMC into the corner I have set up will be able to spread enough in the second turn to cover a full 20" deep area from my board edge. they aren't that mobile.
the 3 FMC in this scenario have 12 + D6WC and and magnus with syphon magic
Hey guys, i've been following this thread and am very interested in it. I have yet to play against GSC and don't know when I'll have the chance. I've been looking for some info on how they are played and what not. I just wanted to throw my 2 cents in here to see what all you GSC players think about facing my DA. I've been toying with starting a thread with this but figured this would be as good a place as any.
The tourney list i built is a double demi lion's blade. Going to keep it simple.
HQ - Stock chaplain and Company Master
2 x5 man assault squads, 2 x flamers, 2 x combi-flamers - drop pod
2 x 5 man dev squad, 2 x grav in each, 2 x rhino in each
2 x 5 man command squad, 5 x melta in one, 5 x gravguns w/ apothocary and sacred standard in one, both in drop pods
1 x 10 man tac squad, 1 x gravgun, 1 x gravcannon, drop pod, combat squaded
1 x 10 man tac squad, 1 x gravgun, 1 x gravcannon, rhino, combat squaded
4 x 5 man tac squad, 2 x melta, 2x razor/TL assault cannon
1 x 5 man scout squad
Obviously the main advantages to this list is the free transports and firing overwatch at full BS. I have no doubts that GSC will pretty much slaughter me in CC and I've worried about the Cult Ambush demolishing stuff before it can do a lot of damage. I'm hoping that, depending on how the GSC deploy, I can have some option with my drop pods on what to bring in. The melta may be ok but I feel like I'm pretty grav heavy which won't be that good against all the low saves GSC have. I'd planned on being able to keep them RttS with all the units I have and where them down through shooting attacks while making them crack open my metal boxes before being able to actually get to my troops.
My questions are
Would you struggle with this kind of list as a GSC player? What would you're tactics be when facing something like this? Would it be hard to RttS you think or would a list like this make it more difficult with all the units in transport/drop pods? I appreciate the input and am really excited to see some of your answers. Also, any Daemon players feel free to chime in. Here lately I've only played against tau/SM/Eldar so any input would be awesome.
Thanks!
P.S. I know the free transports is a pretty cheesy list but with the tournaments I go to it seems to either go cheesy or go home.
Sorry. I meant to say this is for an ITC format and their FAQ stated that:
In a Space Marine Command Squad, so long as a Veteran does not replace a weapon required for the upgrade, it may purchase any of the Veteran options and then be upgraded to an Apothecary or Company Champion.
The DA codex doesn't require an apothecary to give up any weapons. It just states that a marine may be upgraded to an apothecary for 15 points.
So lets play a game with relic and that GSC goes first.
So this is your army in the left corner in sum ruins:
Pink horror bubble wrap, small screamerstar, Magnus, fateweaver, LOC and a unit cultist with sorcerer in the back.(other cultist unit in reserve).
Then I deploy/cult ambush my big blob.
Only my primus/20 acolyte unit gets a 6 (that's 3xd6 so not really that surprising) and most other units deploy outside 6 inch. Other big acolyte unit ets outflank but on the right side. 1 patriarch with 10 acolytes and 1 magus with 10 neophytes outflank on the wrong side.
First turn: all my units move a little closer but still keep the bubble big enough to make sure no FMC can fly to the other side. Big unit that can assault move in towards the horrors.
Psychic phase: with 10 dice against 21 I pull of a big summoning and deploy (result 3) 20 neophytes behind/between the big acolyte unit that is about to assault. This way when the acolytes assault I can make sure the gap stays sealed.
Nah my deployment will look more like this in vanguard or hammer and anvil, triple wrapping with cultists/horrors so its more spread out and bigger bubble, which means you need to cover even more area in order to prevent me from swooping.
I don't assume, I look at math averages. If you assume I fail grim + fatey re-rolls then I can assume you roll 60-70% 1s and 2s on the ambush table for your whole army, not here to play that game.
Anyways looking at your big pic, I counted over 100 models prior to any summoning. I counted 14 units in your army list, Of the 14, on average 5-6 random units should be rolling 1-2s on the ambush table and only 2-3 units may roll a 6. I highly doubt you will be able to cover enough area base on averages, also your basically assuming all your bigger units will all roll 3-6s.
Anyways looking at all your models stacking 2" within each other. Have you measured how big of a circular area is 9"? Nova states all units within range takes that many hits and from the look oft your pic, a single nova power will hit ALOT of your units. Looking at all those units stacking on top of each other, I probably will not even gonna summon at all turn 1 and maybe even 2, everything will go into mind bullets.
GSC players keep saying RttS, you think a good player gonna be stupid enough to waste a shooting power against a unit thats either too far away or too big to be kill completely? Flicker fire is probably gonna target some of those 5-6 man units. I am very confident I can wipe out majority of your units within 9" between magic and assault, your really underestimating how big 9" is. Any units that are not completely wiped out within 9-15", I will simply make a run move with Magnus and/or sweep attack with screamer star within 6" and you can't RttS. Again I highly doubt you'll have enough units to ambush ON AVERAGE in order to deny swooping from the gecko base on the size of my deployment bubble.
And if you don't roll any summoning powers, your really screwed.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And trust me I will be dedicating all 17+D6WC into shooting since you decided to feed me 70%+ of your army. And majority will go into the Novas in order to prevent you from denying. And yes Magnus will cast siphon magic, so when he is casting his nova it will practically be free. A single beam will hit probably 7-10 models lol
ILegion wrote: Sorry. I meant to say this is for an ITC format and their FAQ stated that:
In a Space Marine Command Squad, so long as a Veteran does not replace a weapon required for the upgrade, it may purchase any of the Veteran options and then be upgraded to an Apothecary or Company Champion.
The DA codex doesn't require an apothecary to give up any weapons. It just states that a marine may be upgraded to an apothecary for 15 points.
Check your DAFAQ. it will trump the ITC FAQ. you can't do it anymore
Automatically Appended Next Post: NOVAs can be denied as normal as they target every unit in range. beams can't as the pick a point on the ground
NOVAs can be denied as normal as they target every unit in range. beams can't as the pick a point on the ground
Hmm what's this?
It says in the rulebook that one of the units containing a model being hit by a beam can attempt to deny it. Did that change in the FAQ?
NOVAs can be denied as normal as they target every unit in range. beams can't as the pick a point on the ground
Hmm what's this?
It says in the rulebook that one of the units containing a model being hit by a beam can attempt to deny it. Did that change in the FAQ?
misintupreted it because you can't jink against it. My bad.
Just beam so you don't hit his Magus unit, that way he can only deny at 5+ with adman will. Every dice he throws at other stuff is less dice he can throw at the Nova.
With the way he sets up in order to deny ground, no matter how much he stagger his models, a beam will still hit 6-8 models which is just as good as templates.
Let see what I got guarantee prior to throwing any Novas:
Fatey: Flame breath, bolt of Tz, flicker fire
Magnus: Bolt of Tz, doom bolt, flicker fire, maybe summon a chariot to torrent if there aren't much left within 9".
Herald of Tz: flicker fire
Then good potentials spells I may get since I'm throwing all dice into malefic with the herald: dark flame, infernal gaze.
LoC all into Change or Malefic: For another Nova or Dark flame/gaze.
I'm not even gonna name any thing good Fatey may get since he only gets 1 roll on each discipline. On top of all that at T3 they arevery susceptible to warp flame and don't forget soul blaze. GSC players will have to pray for night fight turn 1 lol.
When the dust settles I don't think I'll be within good charging range to any of his units, so screamers turbo boost 24" 5xD3 sweeping attack on whatever big unit that is still alive and spreading out to prevent multiple units from RttS.
By turn 4 he's not gonna have much left to contest the relic and hopefully not many base WCs left either. Fatey, herald and Magnus all summon some units turn 4 and 5 to contest/control the relic. Again we are talking about potentially 40 daemonettes, and 6 flamers in two turns.
Look at this madness. That sea of dudes right there is what I see whenever someone tells me they're going to "dominate" or "control" anything against the Genestealer Cults. It's why I say "you're not going to do that". If you're running a Gladius Rhino rush then yeah, maybe - but when your army has 40 dudes in it I find it less convincing, especially when my shooting can actually hurt the majority of the said dudes. Problem is I'm so used to passing my shooting phases I'd probably forget to throw the grenades or poppity pop my little pop-guns.
Again, look how much of the table these dudes are just squatting in. The top left corner is the edge of the terrain piece, which is maybe 9-12" from the table edge. Shogun's furthest dudes are sitting maybe 8" from that. Now you might think it's Nova time and you'd be right - but you move **before** you start killing models, not after, and he has a cover save plus a bunch of psykers on deck.
This is after he's pulled, what, 50 dudes into Ambush reserve.
I can't take seriously this idea that anyone with a monster mash army is going to "dominate" or "control" anything early-game against GSC. Granted, shogun's opposition are deployed much tighter into the corner than I'd deploy against GSC, but even if you go for an open deployment, present your Screamer-"star" and Horrors/ Cultists as the only possible charge options, then when they get charged push your monsters forward into the Pile In gap and start Nova-ing for your life, you're ***still*** going to struggle to cut through that many dudes quickly - and since you move before the Novas go off (assuming they go off past his 8-12 Denial dice) your army will **still** be a full turn behind the game when it comes to controlling and dominating things.
The name of the game for me is forcing a space to summon Daemons into. When you've done that you can then start trying to control and dominate things.
rawne2510 wrote: There is no way that a GSC which is trying to bubble wrap my FMC into the corner I have set up will be able to spread enough in the second turn to cover a full 20" deep area from my board edge. they aren't that mobile.
I can put models anywhere I want within a certain distance of enemy units. No scatter, no mishaps, no nothing; they go exactly where I want them. You don't get much more mobile than that.
the 3 FMC in this scenario have 12 + D6WC and and magnus with syphon magic
So the same number of WC as my Genestealer Cults, who are already starting with 120 bodies on the table, 100 of which are replenishable.
2 x5 man assault squads, 2 x flamers, 2 x combi-flamers - drop pod
2 x 5 man dev squad, 2 x grav in each, 2 x rhino in each
2 x 5 man command squad, 5 x melta in one, 5 x gravguns w/ apothocary and sacred standard in one, both in drop pods
1 x 10 man tac squad, 1 x gravgun, 1 x gravcannon, drop pod, combat squaded
1 x 10 man tac squad, 1 x gravgun, 1 x gravcannon, rhino, combat squaded
4 x 5 man tac squad, 2 x melta, 2x razor/TL assault cannon
1 x 5 man scout squad
I'd be more worried about facing this than I would any of the Magnus lists I've seen so far. Bolter Scouts outflanking into my cozy little Summoning corner is something I don't want to see.
One thing I would note is that Overwatch isn't something I really worry about. If I'm running big squads like Shogun does then they can soak it well enough, whereas if I'm running my usual small squads then I'll assault with two at a time, one to eat the bullets and the other to eat your face. Your Overwatch will hurt a lot more than most but I can still beat it.
What would you're tactics be when facing something like this?
I'd probably reserve my CAD dudes, deploy everything else on top of your Rhinos and infantry. Lead with the Subterranean Uprising against the Rhinos and infantry so they can get their Shrouded saves and the dudes behind them get 4+ cover on turn one, plus deploy my Neophytes to the rear to prevent Pods helping out the dudes on the board by rinsing away my back lines. Now you either abandon your Rhinos and infantry to get slowly gribbled away while your Pods drop elsewhere and hold ground, or you try to help them out by deploying the Pods forward of my dudes, in which case my attack will melt away and I can start Ambushing onto flags etc.
That doesn't rely on my dudes all rolling 6s to Ambush. A couple of them might, but we'll say none of them do. You have no shootan' that ignores cover outside of the Pods so my entire army is both fearless and has cover saves first turn. Turn two they can charge you no matter what. I also have CAD dudes in reserve to hop around capping flags if needs be.
The other, more neutral way to approach this would be to just deploy everything in a corner with the Neophytes on Pod-blocking duty, then leave a half-decent force in my corner with most of my psykers while I Ambush two Patriarchs plus everything else. That gives me control of a quarter, allows me to start Summoning things at you on turn 1, and means I have a Fearless Ambush contingent to throw at your backfield or cap flags with, which means your Rhinos and Infantry have to hang back and potentially leave your Pods exposed. You don't really have any long range shooting I need to worry about, and once those Pods fall I can start ripping up what falls out, using my Neophytes to eat Flamer hits and Overwatch.
More generally - the way I fight Gladius-style armies with GSC is to try and separate them as much as possible so they can't support each other effectively, then gribble them in small portions. If my opponent prevents that from happening I'm gonna have a bad time.
Would it be hard to RttS you think or would a list like this make it more difficult with all the units in transport/drop pods?
It's difficult to get RttS going against any army with a big footprint, and against Mehrens it's doubly so because everything is so resilient. Combats happen all over the place and can last multiple turns, creating no-go zones where a single wayward Pile In can lock dudes on the table. Even when I win the Mehrens' I4 means dudes can break and run right into RttS-denial range, then turn around and hose me. Plus there's Immobilised, Weapon Destroyed Rhinos everywhere doing nothing but blocking my RttS, Drop Pods next to all the flags, Scouts popping out of trees and suchforth. You can't rely on the carousel in the same way as you can against the likes of Eldar, so you need to accept that your first big attack is probably going to be the only one you get to make.
Luckily very few Marines have any kind of psychic defence which means my Summons and Hypnosis can go off without a hitch - that's good, because when I can't pull squads into Ambush reserve I need Summons to keep my numbers up. They also bring very little that's capable of tackling a Patriarch in CC, which means even if they manage to punch out the Acolytes they usually end up ripped apart anyways. Expect at least two of those dudes in every GSC army and you won't go far wrong.
My statement about the coverage was with regards to moving from that initial deployment to stopping my FMC swooping back on the board second turn. thats 72" full board length 20" deep.
Nah my deployment will look more like this in vanguard or hammer and anvil, triple wrapping with cultists/horrors so its more spread out and bigger bubble, which means you need to cover even more area in order to prevent me from swooping.
I don't assume, I look at math averages.
You know what the problem is with 2/3 bubble wrappings? You cannot effectively move them away to make room for magnus and/or the LOC and fateweaver. In your picture you make a big deployment bubble without any cover near and I don't think that thats realistically. If you would deploy within/near a piece of cover and those /cultist horrors move 2 inch (difficult terrain) then I already got a great barrier between me and the FMC. Did a psychic phase with this setup (with nightfight):
Magnus cast magic syphon with 1 dice, succeed (20 warp charge left).
Lord of change cast nova with 4 (reroll 1) and got 2 warp charge, GSC counters with 6 dice and succeed (16 + 1-syphon warp charge left)
Fateweaver cast lvl1 flickering fire with 2 and succeed, with bubblewrap and units within cover + first turn shrouded there is no unit without a 2/3+ coversave. I got 2 wounds but save one with 6+ feel no pain from the icon. (14 + 2-syphon warp charge left)
Lord of change cast lvl1 flickering fire with 2 and succeed, also no model without coversave and he kills 2. (12 + 3-syphon warp charge left)
Lord of change cast beam with 2 and succeed but bubblewrap in front of him limits his options to place the beam. first 2 models die but the other unit behind them got a 2+ coversave (intervening models +shrouded + stealth) the survive. (10 + 4-syphon warp charge left)
Fateweaver cast beam with 2 but fails (8+ 4-syphon warp charge left)
Fateweaver cannot use normal flamer with horrors in front so he's going to use psychic shriek with 2 and succeeds, and kills 2 (6+ 5-syphon warp charge left)
Magnus cast nova with 5 and succeeds with 3. He can only kill 5 GSC with those horror/cultist in between so GSC are not going to deny. Nova gets Strength 4, wounds 4 and one succeeds with 6+ feel no pain. So 3 kills. (6 warpcharge left).
Magnus cast lvl3 flickering fire with the remaining 6 warpcharge and succeeds. He hits with 18 shots, 15wounds, after the 3+ coversave and 6+ feel no pain he got 8 kills.
So thats 18 kills...
After that the warp storm table got the khorne blast and kills another 2 models (2 blasts but one scatters 10 inch away) and the screamers slash a unit but have to land back behind the bubblewrap so thats another 2+ coversave (intervening models + shrouded + stealth), and the kill 1 model.
So thats a total of 21 kills... Next turn I got 5 extra warpdice and managed to summon 20 neophytes and the outflank in a way that the fill up the space again(after run move). All units disperse and make sure the FMC cannot fly over and neophytes that trow a '6' assault the horrors and get hatred(Primus within 12 inch) +1 wskilll (within 6 inch of another unit from the blood cycle formation) and furious charge (within 24 inch of the icon ward). Thats 30 attacks with 3+ reroll to hit and 3+ to wound. Horrors fail the instability test. Neophytes consolidate back to fill the gap again.
With 2 warp dice less the daemons can have another go and even if the kill 30 models I wouldn't be sweating.
One thing I learned from daemons in regard to math averages: You have to expect that every turn sum thing major is going to suck. This could be a failing warp storm table (even with reroll), perils of the warp that makes an FMC dropping from the sky, mishaps, or failing psychic powers.
Nah my deployment will look more like this in vanguard or hammer and anvil, triple wrapping with cultists/horrors so its more spread out and bigger bubble, which means you need to cover even more area in order to prevent me from swooping.
I don't assume, I look at math averages.
You know what the problem is with 2/3 bubble wrappings? You cannot effectively move them away to make room for magnus and/or the LOC and fateweaver. In your picture you make a big deployment bubble without any cover near and I don't think that thats realistically. If you would deploy within/near a piece of cover and those /cultist horrors move 2 inch (difficult terrain) then I already got a great barrier between me and the FMC. Did a psychic phase with this setup (with nightfight):
Magnus cast magic syphon with 1 dice, succeed (20 warp charge left).
Lord of change cast nova with 4 (reroll 1) and got 2 warp charge, GSC counters with 6 dice and succeed (16 + 1-syphon warp charge left)
Fateweaver cast lvl1 flickering fire with 2 and succeed, with bubblewrap and units within cover + first turn shrouded there is no unit without a 2/3+ coversave. I got 2 wounds but save one with 6+ feel no pain from the icon. (14 + 2-syphon warp charge left)
Lord of change cast lvl1 flickering fire with 2 and succeed, also no model without coversave and he kills 2. (12 + 3-syphon warp charge left)
Lord of change cast beam with 2 and succeed but bubblewrap in front of him limits his options to place the beam. first 2 models die but the other unit behind them got a 2+ coversave (intervening models +shrouded + stealth) the survive. (10 + 4-syphon warp charge left)
Fateweaver cast beam with 2 but fails (8+ 4-syphon warp charge left)
Fateweaver cannot use normal flamer with horrors in front so he's going to use psychic shriek with 2 and succeeds, and kills 2 (6+ 5-syphon warp charge left)
Magnus cast nova with 5 and succeeds with 3. He can only kill 5 GSC with those horror/cultist in between so GSC are not going to deny. Nova gets Strength 4, wounds 4 and one succeeds with 6+ feel no pain. So 3 kills. (6 warpcharge left).
Magnus cast lvl3 flickering fire with the remaining 6 warpcharge and succeeds. He hits with 18 shots, 15wounds, after the 3+ coversave and 6+ feel no pain he got 8 kills.
So thats 18 kills...
After that the warp storm table got the khorne blast and kills another 2 models (2 blasts but one scatters 10 inch away) and the screamers slash a unit but have to land back behind the bubblewrap so thats another 2+ coversave (intervening models + shrouded + stealth), and the kill 1 model.
So thats a total of 21 kills... Next turn I got 5 extra warpdice and managed to summon 20 neophytes and the outflank in a way that the fill up the space again(after run move). All units disperse and make sure the FMC cannot fly over and neophytes that trow a '6' assault the horrors and get hatred(Primus within 12 inch) +1 wskilll (within 6 inch of another unit from the blood cycle formation) and furious charge (within 24 inch of the icon ward). Thats 30 attacks with 3+ reroll to hit and 3+ to wound. Horrors fail the instability test. Neophytes consolidate back to fill the gap again.
With 2 warp dice less the daemons can have another go and even if the kill 30 models I wouldn't be sweating.
One thing I learned from daemons in regard to math averages: You have to expect that every turn sum thing major is going to suck. This could be a failing warp storm table (even with reroll), perils of the warp that makes an FMC dropping from the sky, mishaps, or failing psychic powers.
As a long time daemon player, this actually seems pretty realistic. HOWEVER, The turn afterwords will be brutal without the cover save. Also, you forgot to mention warp flame, half the squads are going to get lose a handful of dudes and the other half will be harder to kill next turn.
I don't know magnus's powers as well but I have a feeling he could do a few more useful things. Like swapping out some flickering fire a chariot or have some of the other flickering fires swap for a unit of flamers, worst case scenario, another 10 models die. Also, if I were the GSC playerr, I would do my best to NOT have a patriarch anywhere nearby so that everyone could go to ground. Then in my turn I could sneak him in there so everyone stands back up.
Nah my deployment will look more like this in vanguard or hammer and anvil, triple wrapping with cultists/horrors so its more spread out and bigger bubble, which means you need to cover even more area in order to prevent me from swooping.
I don't assume, I look at math averages.
You know what the problem is with 2/3 bubble wrappings? You cannot effectively move them away to make room for magnus and/or the LOC and fateweaver. In your picture you make a big deployment bubble without any cover near and I don't think that thats realistically. If you would deploy within/near a piece of cover and those /cultist horrors move 2 inch (difficult terrain) then I already got a great barrier between me and the FMC. Did a psychic phase with this setup (with nightfight):
Magnus cast magic syphon with 1 dice, succeed (20 warp charge left).
Lord of change cast nova with 4 (reroll 1) and got 2 warp charge, GSC counters with 6 dice and succeed (16 + 1-syphon warp charge left)
Fateweaver cast lvl1 flickering fire with 2 and succeed, with bubblewrap and units within cover + first turn shrouded there is no unit without a 2/3+ coversave. I got 2 wounds but save one with 6+ feel no pain from the icon. (14 + 2-syphon warp charge left)
Lord of change cast lvl1 flickering fire with 2 and succeed, also no model without coversave and he kills 2. (12 + 3-syphon warp charge left)
Lord of change cast beam with 2 and succeed but bubblewrap in front of him limits his options to place the beam. first 2 models die but the other unit behind them got a 2+ coversave (intervening models +shrouded + stealth) the survive. (10 + 4-syphon warp charge left)
Fateweaver cast beam with 2 but fails (8+ 4-syphon warp charge left)
Fateweaver cannot use normal flamer with horrors in front so he's going to use psychic shriek with 2 and succeeds, and kills 2 (6+ 5-syphon warp charge left)
Magnus cast nova with 5 and succeeds with 3. He can only kill 5 GSC with those horror/cultist in between so GSC are not going to deny. Nova gets Strength 4, wounds 4 and one succeeds with 6+ feel no pain. So 3 kills. (6 warpcharge left).
Magnus cast lvl3 flickering fire with the remaining 6 warpcharge and succeeds. He hits with 18 shots, 15wounds, after the 3+ coversave and 6+ feel no pain he got 8 kills.
So thats 18 kills...
After that the warp storm table got the khorne blast and kills another 2 models (2 blasts but one scatters 10 inch away) and the screamers slash a unit but have to land back behind the bubblewrap so thats another 2+ coversave (intervening models + shrouded + stealth), and the kill 1 model.
So thats a total of 21 kills... Next turn I got 5 extra warpdice and managed to summon 20 neophytes and the outflank in a way that the fill up the space again(after run move). All units disperse and make sure the FMC cannot fly over and neophytes that trow a '6' assault the horrors and get hatred(Primus within 12 inch) +1 wskilll (within 6 inch of another unit from the blood cycle formation) and furious charge (within 24 inch of the icon ward). Thats 30 attacks with 3+ reroll to hit and 3+ to wound. Horrors fail the instability test. Neophytes consolidate back to fill the gap again.
With 2 warp dice less the daemons can have another go and even if the kill 30 models I wouldn't be sweating.
One thing I learned from daemons in regard to math averages: You have to expect that every turn sum thing major is going to suck. This could be a failing warp storm table (even with reroll), perils of the warp that makes an FMC dropping from the sky, mishaps, or failing psychic powers.
Nah its actually quite easy to move my horrors and cultists out of the way backwards and remain in coherency, I do it all the time. The most you'll get is 4++ from shrouded, not 3++ unless you go to ground. If you think thats how I will set up my psychic phase your delusional and if there is no night fight your screwed?
Like I wrote earlier you most likely will not roll enough ambushing models to cover enough area to deny 24" swooping
I just read your bat rep in the GSC thread, your list performed horribly and went 1-2. You realized now that its not good to always rely on getting that one single spell or rolling good on whatever table in order to win? Or relying on night fight? If you think that Tetrad list was hard, you should face one of the top LVO magnus list (which are similar to mine).
Anyways 2 Magnus lists made it to top 8 in the LVO and 0 GSC.
Nah its actually quite easy to move my horrors and cultists out of the way backwards and remain in coherency, I do it all the time. The most you'll get is 4++ from shrouded, not 3++ unless you go to ground. If you think thats how I will set up my psychic phase your delusional and if there is no night fight your screwed?
Like I wrote earlier you most likely will not roll enough ambushing models to cover enough area to deny 24" swooping
Anyways 2 Magnus lists made it to top 8 in the LVO and 0 GSC.
I don't know, I wouldn't risk running my FMCs out in front of the blocking infantry just to kill a few extra dudes, maybe I'm misunderstanding. If you shoot through your own guys you're giving a cover save.
And It would be a poor bet to assume that the GSC player can't deploy like shogun showed. If I'm not mistaken you actually did roll that?
It would certainly be more difficult with the faq confirming you need to roll one at a time but I don't think it's too unreasonable. Especially if you play someone with correct 32 mm bases on a 140 models. It's a silly amount of space to fill.
So since this is the Anti-GSC thread, can we come up with a few bullet-point tips? As a Daemon & Eldar player, it doesn't look particularly hopeful unless I list tailor.
-As a daemon player, despite stating that I think GSC has a chance I think daemons have a favorable match up. So I would make sure that your FMCs always fly towards concentrations of models so they can't Return to shadows.
-As an eldar player, I would say to accept that GSC is a part of the meta and maybe take some of the high attacks/high initiative units we talked about earlier.
Otherwise, I would try to deploy in a corner and shoot your way out. Go for the apoc blast, shrieks, and perfect timing, also that full bs overwatch power. The skatchach is also brutal in forcing the gsc player to not deploy aggressively.
-General tactics, kill the HQs first, the army gets way better with hatred and especially fearless.
-Also, if we're being honest, it's a slow army to play, play to be winning by turns 4/5
Nah its actually quite easy to move my horrors and cultists out of the way backwards and remain in coherency, I do it all the time. The most you'll get is 4++ from shrouded, not 3++ unless you go to ground. If you think thats how I will set up my psychic phase your delusional and if there is no night fight your screwed?
Okay lets do this again, would you setup like this with hammer and anvil/relic mission (white plastic pot= VSG)?
I just read your bat rep in the GSC thread, your list performed horribly and went 1-2. You realized now that it's not good to always rely on getting that one single spell or rolling good on whatever table in order to win? Or relying on night fight?
Apples and oranges. Its like me saying that you should not have a list thats relying on d6 strength nova's. There is a little bit more to that.
I'am not relying on a single spell or a single table. In the end I choose to go for the kill because I want that 20-0 tournament result and the daemon player already got a few maelstrom objectives the first and second turn. I was very close at pulling that off and it could just as well have been a 20-0 for me. The Tzeentch daemon prince with robes got two wound and we both completely forgot the leadership test he has got to take when he gets a wound. My list did not perform horribly but I wont deny that I still need sum pratice. There where a lot of good armylists in that tournament but almost every player either got a 20-0 or 0-20 result. You see that more and more these day's. Lists got a gimmick and if the get the first turn or the right psychic powers it's done.
SonsofVulkan wrote: Anyways 2 Magnus lists made it to top 8 in the LVO and 0 GSC.
There are not a lot of GSC-armies like mine because the GSC-codex is barely around the corner and not everyone got that amount of acolytes and metamorphs (painted) in that amount of time (yet). Daemon players only need to buy a single Magnus model and the can go to town. You don't even got your army painted and I don't see any tournament battle report showing your results.
Do you have tiggy and coteaz attached to the thunderfires? If so I think I played that exact list at captaincon!
The scouts with the strength 4 large blast is brutal. The thunderfire will remove the large units.
How I beat that list was coming in just outside coteaz's 12 inch bubble then assaulting a techmarine that was the farthest from coteaz so it wasn't so bad of a charge. I failed the first time, got my whole unit destroyed, then tried again and made the charge.
The dreadknights are brutal. Don't worry about first turn assaults, just deploy them and let them flame thrower stuff. If they get assaulted it happens, better than staying in reserve till turn 4.
Galef wrote: So since this is the Anti-GSC thread, can we come up with a few bullet-point tips?
As a Daemon & Eldar player, it doesn't look particularly hopeful unless I list tailor.
GSC can be intimidating but it's razor sharp paper. Yes, its sharp but its still paper.
- bubble wrapping is a good thing but its also good to deploy apart to make sure you got room to move after the drop.
- If a GSC player is fielding a subterranean uprising formation then the must deploy using the cult ambush table. These units cannot come out of reserves so the need to return in the shadows if you want to play 'second turn' cult ambush wave. A lot of enemy players don't want to sacrifice a unit but most times It's better to turbo boost a unit screamers or eldar jetbikes within 6 inch to mess up their plans. Also summoning 5 seekers with 6+d6 run move can make a nice bubblewrap wall.
- Also, realise that acolytes/metamorphs move and assault like normal infantry and in combination with overwatch the really need to be close to make effective assault moves.
- Don't be afraid to assault. Jetbikes with hammer of wrath and I5 can really hurt.
- Take out the key units, especially the fearless bubble Patriarch.
I imagine World Eaters would give GSC a run for their money. Fast moving assault heavy army against horde based assault heavy army. GSC have a leg up in the shooting and psykic phases, but assaulting is Khorne's turf.
There was 11 GSC armies in LVO, there are probably just as many if not less Magnus lists. GSC codex came out much earlier than WoM, so GSC players had much more time to test play.
The top GSC player is ranked #14, his only lost was to Brandon Grant's DA Gladius. Full BS overwatch is like auto win against GSC, plus a 40 wolves barkstar ouch.
A magnus list vs gladius in purge the alien is also an auto-win. Yet guess who was in the finals? I don't think there's too many auto-win match ups. There's always a chance.
I say this because I think GSC is like daemons in that a really good player can make up for poor rolling to a point but sometimes it's just too much. On the flipside, a really good palyer who also has a few important rolls go their way can be pretty unstoppable.
Like the bark star?A 20 man acolyte unit combining hatred, furious charge or the +1 strength and rage psychic power with -1 initiative to the bark star could pretty conceivably kill the whole bark star(or most of it) before it can swing.
100 attacks hitting on re-rolling 3s or just 3s, wounding on 3s, or 2s. Even a bark star has trouble dealing with 50 wounds with a dozen rending wounds mixed in.
It's a little unrealistic but I've also played like 15 games with my GSC and actually did that in one of them and wiped out a Canoptic wraith star with reanimate up.
One of the games was against lions blade and I found that with summoning and all the neophytes in my army I could actually trade volleys without assaulting.
vercingatorix wrote: A magnus list vs gladius in purge the alien is also an auto-win. Yet guess who was in the finals? I don't think there's too many auto-win match ups. There's always a chance.
I say this because I think GSC is like daemons in that a really good player can make up for poor rolling to a point but sometimes it's just too much. On the flipside, a really good palyer who also has a few important rolls go their way can be pretty unstoppable.
Like the bark star?A 20 man acolyte unit combining hatred, furious charge or the +1 strength and rage psychic power with -1 initiative to the bark star could pretty conceivably kill the whole bark star(or most of it) before it can swing.
100 attacks hitting on re-rolling 3s or just 3s, wounding on 3s, or 2s. Even a bark star has trouble dealing with 50 wounds with a dozen rending wounds mixed in.
It's a little unrealistic but I've also played like 15 games with my GSC and actually did that in one of them and wiped out a Canoptic wraith star with reanimate up.
One of the games was against lions blade and I found that with summoning and all the neophytes in my army I could actually trade volleys without assaulting.
In the ITC purge the alien mission, Gladius can easily win the maelstrom portion against Magnus, thus it will come down to secondaries.
Unless the big acolyte unit roll a lucky 6 on the ambush table, I doubt you can catch a barkstar control by good player. Most likely a 20 acolyte unit is going to get whittle down by bolters before getting charged. And even if acolyte unit gets 50 wounds in, barkstar gets 4++ with re-rolls + FNP which equivalent to about 8 dead dogs, when they bite back they'll kill all 20 acolytes most likely.
@ Sonsofvulkan: did you look at the last deployment photo? Is this how you would deploy? Your very strait forward about what you would'nt do but then let me know what is your deployment tactics. I'am even going to give you first turn. Question: Is fateweaver your warlord + do you use the tzeentch warpstorm table?
SonsofVulkan wrote:There was 11 GSC armies in LVO, there are probably just as many if not less Magnus lists. GSC codex came out much earlier than WoM, so GSC players had much more time to test play.
Yes, but like I said. Daemon players that already got a (tzeentch) daemon army only got to buy a single model. A full GSC-army with acolytes and Metamorphs mean you got to buy 100+ models. 5 acolytes/metamorphs cost sumthing around 30 dollars I believe, so theirs no surprise that they're not a lot of armies like that. I havent seen the LVOGSC armylist's, but most times its a lot of tyranid players with genestealers in combination with flying hives.
SonsofVulkan wrote:Unless the big acolyte unit roll a lucky 6 on the ambush table, I doubt you can catch a barkstar control by good player. Most likely a 20 acolyte unit is going to get whittle down by bolters before getting charged. And even if acolyte unit gets 50 wounds in, barkstar gets 4++ with re-rolls + FNP which equivalent to about 8 dead dogs, when they bite back they'll kill all 20 acolytes most likely.
Thats why you first assault with a small unit and then with the big one. You're so hang up on the '6' result but the units that assault out of cult ambush most times only lock the enemy in close combat so that their buddies can come in next turn.
shogun wrote: @ Sonsofvulkan: did you look at the last deployment photo? Is this how you would deploy? Your very strait forward about what you would'nt do but then let me know what is your deployment tactics. I'am even going to give you first turn. Question: Is fateweaver your warlord + do you use the tzeentch warpstorm table?
SonsofVulkan wrote:There was 11 GSC armies in LVO, there are probably just as many if not less Magnus lists. GSC codex came out much earlier than WoM, so GSC players had much more time to test play.
Yes, but like I said. Daemon players that already got a (tzeentch) daemon army only got to buy a single model. A full GSC-army with acolytes and Metamorphs mean you got to buy 100+ models. 5 acolytes/metamorphs cost sumthing around 30 dollars I believe, so theirs no surprise that they're not a lot of armies like that. I havent seen the LVOGSC armylist's, but most times its a lot of tyranid players with genestealers in combination with flying hives.
SonsofVulkan wrote:Unless the big acolyte unit roll a lucky 6 on the ambush table, I doubt you can catch a barkstar control by good player. Most likely a 20 acolyte unit is going to get whittle down by bolters before getting charged. And even if acolyte unit gets 50 wounds in, barkstar gets 4++ with re-rolls + FNP which equivalent to about 8 dead dogs, when they bite back they'll kill all 20 acolytes most likely.
Thats why you first assault with a small unit and then with the big one. You're so hang up on the '6' result but the units that assault out of cult ambush most times only lock the enemy in close combat so that their buddies can come in next turn.
In Dawn of War, yes maybe but much bigger bubble (2" between each horrors and cultists) and because the VSG is a lot bigger. Like I wrote earlier 1/3 of your 14 units should be rolling 1-2 on ambush table, and don't assume all your 20 and 10 man units won't be rolling 1-2s. In ITC/Nova tables, those 2 terrains wouldnt be place there like that.
You are not going to lock a 40 wolf barkstar with Azrael and a priest in combat with a 5-10 man acolyte unit.... They have counter attack with re-roll hits and potentially wounds.
Well most walkers like IK, dreadnought or any T8 GMC can hold them if they don't have HnR or Iron priests support. Thats why my version of Gladius + barkstar is smaller but has Celestine to give HnR. Point is a 20 man GSC unit might hold them for a turn top.
I doubt marine lists will change much because of GSC. you either have razorback spam in which case players aren´t that worried with their armour shell or have drop pods which will help counter the initial ambush.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SonsofVulkan wrote: Well most walkers like IK, dreadnought or any T8 GMC can hold them if they don't have HnR or Iron priests support. Thats why my version of Gladius + barkstar is smaller but has Celestine to give HnR. Point is a 20 man GSC unit might hold them for a turn top.
an IK or WK are good if they can catch them and not get destroyed before hand. A proper psychic barkstar won´t have much of an issue I don´t think against 1-2 big things. A non psychic one has a little bit of a harder time (but have a lot of points available within the army to have other counters for them.
SonsofVulkan wrote: In Dawn of War, yes maybe but much bigger bubble (2" between each horrors and cultists) and because the VSG is a lot bigger. Like I wrote earlier 1/3 of your 14 units should be rolling 1-2 on ambush table, and don't assume all your 20 and 10 man units won't be rolling 1-2s. In ITC/Nova tables, those 2 terrains wouldnt be place there like that.
The deployment on the photo is a "hammer and anvil' deployment. How can you increase your armies bubble in 'dawn of war'? It's only 12 inch from the table edge?
You don't like the terrain setup,
These army-setup photo's are actually deployment/cult ambush rolls I made, but you don't like them because there are not enough 1/2 results,
Let's see, I also did roll for the daemon psychic powers;
first fate weaver:
head 1:
biomancy: 4
Telepathy: 0 (got 3 so went for primaris)
Malefic: 1
head 2:
pyromancy: 0
Divination:4
malefic: 0 (got 5 so went for primaris)
Must be nice if everything goes your way. For sum reason my cult ambush should suck more but your Nova's always kill 10 models a turn.
Their's indeed no point to go on about this because you only let me know what you don't like, and that you would not set up like that and that you don't use terrain like that...
I give it one last go:
dawn of war + relic and this is your side:
With reroll I manage to get +1 seize + reroll reserve (strategic).
You want me to do your psychic dice?If so I would first do fateweaver and then herald + sorcerer on malefic and then LOC for tzeentch. you can also do it yourself..
And would you deploy like this (magnus is on the bigger VSG like donkey kong..)?
If not then please let me know what you would do instead. Rock terrain is 5+ coversave, small wall 4+ cover, and also a small ruin at the right. You like?
I would place FW and LoC 15" apart if possible so that if you managed to block me in I can still switch places and be flying. seekers and herald would bubble wrap magnus looking to push 2" away from him.
first cultist unit 4" out from LoC. first model 3" from board edge and looping round to meet the second cultist unit and looking to go past FW. blue horror units doing the same 2-3" further out from the cultists. Adjustments would be made to ensure the blue horrors get all the way round with some cultists pushing out along the edges 3" from board edge if spare.
SonsofVulkan wrote:Well most walkers like IK, dreadnought or any T8 GMC can hold them if they don't have HnR or Iron priests support. Thats why my version of Gladius + barkstar is smaller but has Celestine to give HnR. Point is a 20 man GSC unit might hold them for a turn top.
This depends on how many psykers the barkstar got and if any are level 3(azreal or tigerius?). If GSC psykers can pull of 'mass hypnoses' than its Initiative 4 against Initiative 3 and wolfs go down before the can strike. If the GSC get first turn it's going to be rough for the barkstar I think. GSC can also just surround the barkstar first turn and let them assault the bubblewrap and next turn all GSC units assault the barkstar. Nowhere to hit and run with a big blob of GSC surrounding you.
Dakka Wolf wrote:Might start seeing some Dreadnoughts around to counter the nasty GSC.
I'd be curious if the Cult can re-define what units are deemed auto-includes.
S4 rending means every 6 gets you a Strenght 10 + d3 strenght hit. It's not hard to get furious charge from the icon and metamorphs get +2 strenght claw with rending. Rending is also not ap2 so there will not be to many explosions except for open topped vehicles. It all depends on the rending hits. I once killed a landraiders with a 55 point metamorph unit but also been fighting for 3 turns with 15 acolytes against an armor 13 dreadnought.
I would look to setup across a position where I have a terrain and there is terrain more that 5" away from me. From the picture I would look to setup wide around the tower to the right if this was Hammer and Anvil as that looks roughly 48" wide. Dawn of war little more complicated possible same side slightly but as I wouldn´t be able to completely cover the ruins base push out slightly to the wall again staying 5-6" away from that rock pile so that:
1. you deploy a little further away but are in cover so have a chance of failing some charges but get cover or are in the open for garunteed charge but no cover
SonsofVulkan wrote:Well most walkers like IK, dreadnought or any T8 GMC can hold them if they don't have HnR or Iron priests support. Thats why my version of Gladius + barkstar is smaller but has Celestine to give HnR. Point is a 20 man GSC unit might hold them for a turn top.
This depends on how many psykers the barkstar got and if any are level 3(azreal or tigerius?). If GSC psykers can pull of 'mass hypnoses' than its Initiative 4 against Initiative 3 and wolfs go down before the can strike. If the GSC get first turn it's going to be rough for the barkstar I think. GSC can also just surround the barkstar first turn and let them assault the bubblewrap and next turn all GSC units assault the barkstar. Nowhere to hit and run with a big blob of GSC surrounding you.
They have a 4++ probably with reroll saves if they have been hypnotised
rawne2510 wrote: I would place FW and LoC 15" apart if possible so that if you managed to block me in I can still switch places and be flying. seekers and herald would bubble wrap magnus looking to push 2" away from him.
first cultist unit 4" out from LoC. first model 3" from board edge and looping round to meet the second cultist unit and looking to go past FW. blue horror units doing the same 2-3" further out from the cultists. Adjustments would be made to ensure the blue horrors get all the way round with some cultists pushing out along the edges 3" from board edge if spare.
damn forgot to place the screamer unit...
Adjusted the picture.. placed the LOC and fateweaver 13 inch apart so that the can fly to the side without being in each other way. bubblewrap I got to keep like this because the models on the side need to be within 12 inch Void shield and in the middle/front I got to keep 3 bubble wrappings because its possible to shoot at these units if the GSC get within the Void shield bubble.
Automatically Appended Next Post: if anything I don´t mind them getting shot a bit extra models to push out further.
Automatically Appended Next Post: in that case the cultists push out to the sides 12" away from the generator 2 lines deep each side with the horror max 12" from board edge across the front.
rawne2510 wrote: They have a 4++ probably with reroll saves if they have been hypnotised
But the dont get reroll save if the get assaulted first GSC turn. The got 4+ inv save + 5+ feel no pain for being close to an objective. Even one unit metamorphs within 12 inch of the primus (hatred) can kill 15 wolfs.
SonsofVulkan wrote:Well most walkers like IK, dreadnought or any T8 GMC can hold them if they don't have HnR or Iron priests support. Thats why my version of Gladius + barkstar is smaller but has Celestine to give HnR. Point is a 20 man GSC unit might hold them for a turn top.
This depends on how many psykers the barkstar got and if any are level 3(azreal or tigerius?). If GSC psykers can pull of 'mass hypnoses' than its Initiative 4 against Initiative 3 and wolfs go down before the can strike. If the GSC get first turn it's going to be rough for the barkstar I think. GSC can also just surround the barkstar first turn and let them assault the bubblewrap and next turn all GSC units assault the barkstar. Nowhere to hit and run with a big blob of GSC surrounding you.
Dakka Wolf wrote:Might start seeing some Dreadnoughts around to counter the nasty GSC.
I'd be curious if the Cult can re-define what units are deemed auto-includes.
S4 rending means every 6 gets you a Strenght 10 + d3 strenght hit. It's not hard to get furious charge from the icon and metamorphs get +2 strenght claw with rending. Rending is also not ap2 so there will not be to many explosions except for open topped vehicles. It all depends on the rending hits. I once killed a landraiders with a 55 point metamorph unit but also been fighting for 3 turns with 15 acolytes against an armor 13 dreadnought.
I run traditional Nids and Space Wolves - I know how rending works, I also know Lady Luck to be a fickle bitch. I've had a unit of ten Genestealers with scything talons piled in on a Dread before and truth be told the only reason the Dread didn't break loose from flattened Genestealers is because it was early last year and Dreads still packed two attacks. That said Lady Luck can be fickle and a Dread might also get shredded before it even gets an initiative step.
Too bad Venerable Dreads aren't characters.
Automatically Appended Next Post: how many models are in this metamorph unit of yours?
Automatically Appended Next Post: to get 15 kills you are looking at about 35-40 wounds without the rerolls
No it's a little less then that, think I forgot 5+ feel no pain.
Only if the can pull of 'mass hypnosis'. 10 metamorphs got 40 attacks with reroll (primus within 12 inch), wskill 4 against wskill 3 (mass hypnoses)
So thats about 35 hits, then wounding on a 2+ (Strenght 6 against Toughness 4)= about 30 wounds.
with reroll 4+ inv and 5+ feel no pain you're looking at 5 dead wolfs.
Best thing is that the wolfs only move 3 inch in their initiative step and its hard to kill 10 metamorphs with 'mass hypnoses wolfs'. Let's say 10 wolfs are within reach:
20 attacks (counterattack +1 but 'mass hypnoses' -1), 10 hits, reroll with zaelot= 15 hits, Strenght 4 against toughness 3= 10 wounds, 5+ save for the GSC with possible 6+ feel no pain = 5/6 casualties.
I know about a barkstar with the dark angels librarian conclave but dont know how the priest/adepta version would look like (at 1850 points)?
rawne2510 wrote: check out the guys list who came second in LVO. it is a full lion blades Dbl Demi detachment. the wolfkin formation and priest from imperial agents
Found it... but thats not really a deathstar. But I can imagine that this kind of list does well in the LVO setting. Total field domination.
it isn´t a death star in the literal meaning (that it can destroy anything) which he was trying to ensure with people during the whole event. however its ability to survive and kill what it needs to kill and tie units up is resolute.
Agreed that small units can't tie it up for a turn, and I didn't know about the re-roll invul saves, I thought it was more difficult then just picking the hq you want to get a priest in your army. Also in the two games I watched I never saw him roll a fnp so maybe he just wasn't standing on objectives or he picked a different warlord trait so either way I don't think that's quite as reliable as it sounds.
I still think that a 20 man unit of acolytes charging in would terrorize that unit if they get to strike first Also, doesn't the priest in there mean that he needs to pass a ld test on ld 7? It'd be nice if GSC had an easy ld debuff power or wargear.
What I think would happen is that the unit would bunch up tightly when it charged, kill all the models that could strike back, then in the following turns get beaten by the wolf star as their charge bonuses wear off. But they would significantly wear it down and if the wolfstar player isn't very careful, Azrael or the priests could get picked off and the unit would then fall apart.
SonsofVulkan wrote: In Dawn of War, yes maybe but much bigger bubble (2" between each horrors and cultists) and because the VSG is a lot bigger. Like I wrote earlier 1/3 of your 14 units should be rolling 1-2 on ambush table, and don't assume all your 20 and 10 man units won't be rolling 1-2s. In ITC/Nova tables, those 2 terrains wouldnt be place there like that.
The deployment on the photo is a "hammer and anvil' deployment. How can you increase your armies bubble in 'dawn of war'? It's only 12 inch from the table edge?
You don't like the terrain setup,
These army-setup photo's are actually deployment/cult ambush rolls I made, but you don't like them because there are not enough 1/2 results,
Let's see, I also did roll for the daemon psychic powers;
first fate weaver:
head 1:
biomancy: 4
Telepathy: 0 (got 3 so went for primaris)
Malefic: 1
head 2:
pyromancy: 0
Divination:4
malefic: 0 (got 5 so went for primaris)
Must be nice if everything goes your way. For sum reason my cult ambush should suck more but your Nova's always kill 10 models a turn.
Their's indeed no point to go on about this because you only let me know what you don't like, and that you would not set up like that and that you don't use terrain like that...
I give it one last go:
dawn of war + relic and this is your side:
With reroll I manage to get +1 seize + reroll reserve (strategic).
You want me to do your psychic dice?If so I would first do fateweaver and then herald + sorcerer on malefic and then LOC for tzeentch. you can also do it yourself..
And would you deploy like this (magnus is on the bigger VSG like donkey kong..)?
If not then please let me know what you would do instead. Rock terrain is 5+ coversave, small wall 4+ cover, and also a small ruin at the right. You like?
I'm not here to play paper warhammer with you. Next time you play that infernal tetrad player or whatever Flying circus list at a tourney, try it out and see how you do....
In general, when you try to pull that mass surround off against ANY army base on dice averages 1/3 of your army should be rolling 1-2s. Yes you can roll better in some games but then you could also roll a lot worse as you experienced in that tournament. Instead of continuing trying to argue a mathematically un-reliable tactic, you should start thinking how to win reliably.
Shogun I don't think I saw many hand flamers in your list? Why would Brandon Grant's 40 wolf star even need to spread out, he could keep them all stack closer together, every time you charge the star, at least 25-30 wolves will bite back plus Azrael. On his turn, a bunch of marines is going to shred you up with bolters then charge you with the Dogs.
rawne2510 wrote: It will still destroy small GSC units that thinkn they can hold it up.
That's what my friend thought about his IH Biker deathstar. I lost 17-18 units holding it in place but it was held nonetheless. The problem with deathstar armies is they often have no real targets for my 20-man summoned Neophyte units so they end up in the combat too.
Barkstars are vulnerable to Mass Hypnosis and losing characters in challenges. Bring a Culexus and I'll kill him in CC
Then you start talking about "averages" and quote the crude fractional probability you get when dividing the small number by the big number for a six-sided die. That's paper warhammer at its most pernicious and silly. Protip: If you want to talk about "average" results, pointing to the arithmetical mean isn't good enough. You roll the mean set of results a miniscule proportion of the time, you see, so planning around that is not a good idea. What you need to talk about are the range of rolls within 1 standard deviation about the mean, i.e. where most of your results will fall - so 2/3 of the dice rolling 1-2, 2/3 of the dice rolling 5-6, etc etc.
When you do that for GSC, you find that in 60-70 percent of cases at least 1/3 of your army should be rolling 3-6 on the Cult Ambush table. If your army is 25, 30 models total that would be problematic - but shogun's isn't, is it? One third of his army is like 40 dudes or something. That's more than enough to box anyone into a corner, or at the very least thwart Swooping from behind an open deployment - which is to say it's enough to put you 1 turn behind the game, and more than enough to prevent you dmoinating or controlling the board at deployment. The corner case - all of his models roll 1-2 - means he deploys in a corner and comes in on turn two.
The trick is to have a plan that covers the top 70% of cases, and an alternative that covers the bottom 30%. That's what you seem to think you're doing by assuming your Novas will kill everything **and** your Summons will all go off **and** you'll have Cursed Earth to prevent scatter **and** your Grimoire won't fizzle **and** Kairos can fish up a 9 or 10 on the Warp Storm table. As a GSC player I have to plan for all of that to happen - as a Daemons player you have to have a plan when none of it does. So what do you do when Shogun rolls 10 sixes on his Ambush and none of your powers go off? Blame the dice? Make a whinepost about how OP Genestealer Cults are? What's the plan?
rawne2510 wrote: It will still destroy small GSC units that thinkn they can hold it up.
That's what my friend thought about his IH Biker deathstar. I lost 17-18 units holding it in place but it was held nonetheless. The problem with deathstar armies is they often have no real targets for my 20-man summoned Neophyte units so they end up in the combat too.
Barkstars are vulnerable to Mass Hypnosis and losing characters in challenges. Bring a Culexus and I'll kill him in CC
Then you start talking about "averages" and quote the crude fractional probability you get when dividing the small number by the big number for a six-sided die. That's paper warhammer at its most pernicious and silly. Protip: If you want to talk about "average" results, pointing to the arithmetical mean isn't good enough. You roll the mean set of results a miniscule proportion of the time, you see, so planning around that is not a good idea. What you need to talk about are the range of rolls within 1 standard deviation about the mean, i.e. where most of your results will fall - so 2/3 of the dice rolling 1-2, 2/3 of the dice rolling 5-6, etc etc.
When you do that for GSC, you find that in 60-70 percent of cases at least 1/3 of your army should be rolling 3-6 on the Cult Ambush table. If your army is 25, 30 models total that would be problematic - but shogun's isn't, is it? One third of his army is like 40 dudes or something. That's more than enough to box anyone into a corner, or at the very least thwart Swooping from behind an open deployment - which is to say it's enough to put you 1 turn behind the game, and more than enough to prevent you dmoinating or controlling the board at deployment. The corner case - all of his models roll 1-2 - means he deploys in a corner and comes in on turn two.
The trick is to have a plan that covers the top 70% of cases, and an alternative that covers the bottom 30%. That's what you seem to think you're doing by assuming your Novas will kill everything **and** your Summons will all go off **and** you'll have Cursed Earth to prevent scatter **and** your Grimoire won't fizzle **and** Kairos can fish up a 9 or 10 on the Warp Storm table. As a GSC player I have to plan for all of that to happen - as a Daemons player you have to have a plan when none of it does. So what do you do when Shogun rolls 10 sixes on his Ambush and none of your powers go off? Blame the dice? Make a whinepost about how OP Genestealer Cults are? What's the plan?
Well I consider that term playing it out him rolling things behind a computer, if he wants a game maybe we can download Vassal.
He has 14 units of various sizes, rolling on a D6 table for each unit, he needs exactly the RIGHT amount of unit of the RIGHT size to cover the front. After that he needs to roll enough units of the right size on 4s and 5s, if he rolls too many 3s, 2s, and 1s then he is not going to have enough coverage. Why don't he roll that initial ambush deployment 10 separates times if you guys are so desperate to prove your tactics?
Also are you using that picture that he initially posted where he assume I'll deploy in the corner in small bubble wrap and that he has over 80% of his army on the board surrounding me? Did you see the most realistic deployment where the radius of my bubble wrap would be actually 6-8" wider? So now what, he'll need another 10% of his army on the surround to maintain coverage?
Now again you love to go back to the assuming game that only makes your argument look dumb. Yeah in a game of dice any thing could happen and luck do play a big part. But we are not playing a actual game in RL or on Vassal. This is a anti-GSC tactics thread, we are only talking most likely probabilities and averages. Did you read his bat rep where he went 1-2 at tourney because he admits he rolled badly on the ambush table and the one game he couldn't get summoning? Many times I see that happening for GSC players in my area....
If a GSC player decides to feed the majority of his army in front of me instead of playing the hiding game, I don't need all my powers to go off, I just need enough of them to go off to wipe out the smaller units and whittle down the bigger ones (not going to summon at all except maybe a chariot). And guess what if I'm not summoning, all the shooting powers are only WC1. The rest I'll take care of in the shooting/assault phase and using run moves and turbo boosts to prevent RttS.
SonsofVulkan wrote: Well I consider that term playing it out him rolling things behind a computer, if he wants a game maybe we can download Vassal.
... but you're dividng the small number by the big number and talking about "average" results being the way to "win reliably". He has models on the table and is rolling dice. It's all math-hammer, it's just that shogun's is a far more representative study than simple division because he's putting models on the table, measuring distances and rolling dice instead of doing dividing the small number by the big number and thinking that's "average".
He has 14 units of various sizes, rolling on a D6 table for each unit, [snipped for brevity] Why don't he roll that initial ambush deployment 10 separates times if you guys are so desperate to prove your tactics?
Because he doesn't need to. You're continually saying we should look at averages - so let's do that. Only let's do it properly.
It's difficult to justify assuming that physical dice follow a normal distribution of results (because everyone uses different dice, rolls them differently, etc), and in reality I think you'd need a multivariate model to really sift through this, but YOLO, right? Assumptions in hand, the single most common result you should expect to see in an infinite number of rolls is 1/3 of shogun's army rolling a 1-2 on the Ambush table. That doesn't mean this is the result you should plan for. It just means it's the most common. I can't remember how to do the calculation or what tables to look on to find the answer, but "most common" doesn't mean "90% of the time". it's something like 30-40 percent, so 30-40 times out of 100 you can expect to see the mean result. The other 60 rolls will turn up some combination of rolls - 95% of which fall within 2 s.d. of the mean. If your plan covers all these cases, it's a good plan.
Note that even in your "mean" case, 50% of shogun's army will land a 4-6 and thus will be within 6" of your front line. One sixth of it will be within 3" of your line. For an army of 14 units we'll say that's one unit with a 6, 1 unit with a 3, 6 units with 1-2 and 6 units with a 4-5. Is that enough to stop your dudes lifting off? Also bear in mind that any units arriving on a 2 which do so from your board edge can move to within 1" of your models ("following all rules for movement", says the FAQ!).
That's the mean case. What about the majority of the time? Well, most of the results (95%) will be within 2 s.d. of the mean - without calculating, I'm going to assume 50% of units rolling 1-2 and 50% getting a 3 would be within 2 s.d. of the mean case. Even here 7 units are within 9" of your front line, which is 8" out or whatever. Your monsters can now fly, but their 9" Novas will hit a couple of dudes at best - maybe Warpflame will inflict a few more hits, maybe it won't. Either way your Swoopers are now locked into flying in specific directions or dropping to Glide in front of a Fearless GSC foot horde.
So, yeah. In all but the most uncommon of cases the GSC player can quite safely push his models down your throat, dominate the centre, and force you onto the back foot. In the uncommon cases he can play the hiding game - or he can just Infiltrate normally and **still** beat you to the middle.
Now again you love to go back to the assuming game that only makes your argument look dumb. Yeah in a game of dice any thing could happen and luck do play a big part. But we are not playing a actual game in RL or on Vassal. This is a anti-GSC tactics thread, we are only talking most likely probabilities and averages.
... except when it comes to Cult Ambush and rolling Telepathic Summons, in which case we must assume the GSC player can't ever get the results he needs to make his plan work (despite the fact he almost always will, see above).
Either way your whole speil involves bullying a win out of the GSC with Magnus and Kairos. That's it. You're going to fly these dudes forward and just pwn all the Hybrids forever because they're so awesome. That's not a feasible "tactic" considering I can redeploy all my dudes at the drop of a hat. You can beat GSC with Daemons, and Novas will be an important part of doing that - but you're not just going to shove the Daemon Primarch forward and ask me to remove models. I can make it more difficult than that.
Did you read his bat rep where he went 1-2 at tourney because he admits he rolled badly on the ambush table and the one game he couldn't get summoning? Many times I see that happening for GSC players in my area....
... which is why you need a plan that will survive the corner cases, right? Y'know, those cases when you can't get a Nova past my Denials, your Summoned Daemons all get smashed inside a turn, thus you can't build up any board presence so your flyers are constantly having to drop and risk being thrown in the wood chipper.
Like I said a couple pages ago, Telepathic Summons is supplemental for me. I can recover 20+ dudes a turn just by RttSing my chopped-up squads, which you just don't have the board presence to trap without Summoning Daemons. It's really useful and I like to have it, which is why I bring the Crouchling in addition to 12 Mastery levels so I get 13 shots at it, but I've failed to land it before.
Shogun plays a different way than I do though. I don't know how heavily the 10-man units rely on Summons - they get less dudes back from Numbers Beyond Counting than I do (less units so less resurrection rolls).
He has 14 units of various sizes, rolling on a D6 table for each unit, he needs exactly the RIGHT amount of unit of the RIGHT size to cover the front. After that he needs to roll enough units of the right size on 4s and 5s, if he rolls too many 3s, 2s, and 1s then he is not going to have enough coverage. Why don't he roll that initial ambush deployment 10 separates times if you guys are so desperate to prove your tactics?
You do know that my big units are in the subterranean uprising, right? My 20 acolyte unit with primus roll 3x d6 and choose a result, and my other 20 acolyte unit + 3x 10 metamorph unit roll 2 x d6 and choose a result. In the first picture I posted I indeed got a 2 result with my 20 acolytes but the did outflank at the 'right' side. So I'am not saying it doesn't happen but I got 70 models that roll at least 2xd6 for cult ambush result. So, if you're all about math than it's not 1 out of 3 that roll a 1 or 2.
Also are you using that picture that he initially posted where he assume I'll deploy in the corner in small bubble wrap and that he has over 80% of his army on the board surrounding me? Did you see the most realistic deployment where the radius of my bubble wrap would be actually 6-8" wider? So now what, he'll need another 10% of his army on the surround to maintain coverage?
You wrote "I would deploy in a corner in sum terrain" and then I showed you a picture in a dawn of war setup (12 inch deployment). You did not liked it so you showed me a big bubble in hammer and anvil setup. A big bubble also means your closer to cover and then my infiltrating units get a coversave with possible nightfight + first turn shrouded. You only let me know what you don't like, or would not do, so when I gave you a battlefield setup and let you choose you own deployment, suddenly you don't want to play anymore. Your just going to point at LVO results like that really means anything. You say: 'GSC got enough opportunity to test so if the were so good the should have done better' and at the same time you show me a picture of your army with almost only grey plastic models that would not even be allowed in a tournament.
Now again you love to go back to the assuming game that only makes your argument look dumb. Yeah in a game of dice any thing could happen and luck do play a big part. But we are not playing a actual game in RL or on Vassal. This is a anti-GSC tactics thread, we are only talking most likely probabilities and averages. Did you read his bat rep where he went 1-2 at tourney because he admits he rolled badly on the ambush table and the one game he couldn't get summoning? Many times I see that happening for GSC players in my area....
You don't know anything about that tournament-setup so you should stop referring to that. In that tournament you could get kill-points in every round so thats also difficult for GSC to win a 20-0. With the daemons I choose to go for the wipe out and in the end my opponent only got 2 Daemon Princes with 2 wounds each ending in a 11-9 result. So it's not like the super-destroyed me. That Eldar game I didn't get first turn, no summoning, failed 2 x 4 inch assault moves, shot with 70 auto pistol shots and only got 1 dead eldar jetbike and also made a big mistake. So jeah, when sumthing like that happens its game over.
Meanwhile I don't see any of your tournament results with your grey unpainted daemon army.
If a GSC player decides to feed the majority of his army in front of me instead of playing the hiding game, I don't need all my powers to go off, I just need enough of them to go off to wipe out the smaller units and whittle down the bigger ones (not going to summon at all except maybe a chariot). And guess what if I'm not summoning, all the shooting powers are only WC1. The rest I'll take care of in the shooting/assault phase and using run moves and turbo boosts to prevent RttS.
Are you reading this daemon players out there? Its just that easy! But we are not going to show you how just take his word for it.
Fragile wrote:Initially this was a good tactical thread on GSC vs Demons but I think we gotten into a "My deployment is better than yours" argument.
It still is a good thread. There's a lesson to be learned, and the lesson is you can't bully a win out of GSC with Magnus in two turns no matter what mission you're playing, because Magnus brings nothing to the table that a GSC army can't handle in spades.
shogun wrote:subterranean uprising
Forgot to include this in the calculations above. This being the case, the mean set of rolls is actually slightly less than 1/3 of the army rolling 1-2; and still 70% of the time at least 2/3 of shogun's army is landing within 9" of your front line, wherever that happens to be.
Boxing people in works and is a reliable way to force opponents to chase the game, which is a good position for GSC to be in because if they can keep their numbers up they're the best army in 40k at controlling the table. It might be less effective if the army is putting out a tonne of Ignores Cover on the first turn, because your SubUp units lose Shrouded in that case, but your army just isn't doing that. Tau with 30-odd SMS shots on turn one might send me into a corner, but not Magnus and Kairos. Not models that might give me FNP, and which I can chase around the table.
Even in the 30% of cases where the box fails there's still no "domination" going on from the Daemons side. You'll get flyers and jetbikes into the middle before I can, but there'll be no bubble wrap for them on turn two when all my dudes come back from the shadows.
Like I said earlier, cut off a quarter, Summon like mad, and then start trying to kill dudes. Set out to bully a win with Magnus and you're going to have a bad time.
Are you reading this daemon players out there? Its just that easy! But we are not going to show you how just take his word for it.
IKR. People still think they're just S4 Guardsmen. If you can beat 120 Conscripts or 300 Boyz, you can beat GSC... right?
SonsofVulkan wrote: Well I consider that term playing it out him rolling things behind a computer, if he wants a game maybe we can download Vassal.
... but you're dividng the small number by the big number and talking about "average" results being the way to "win reliably". He has models on the table and is rolling dice. It's all math-hammer, it's just that shogun's is a far more representative study than simple division because he's putting models on the table, measuring distances and rolling dice instead of doing dividing the small number by the big number and thinking that's "average".
He has 14 units of various sizes, rolling on a D6 table for each unit, [snipped for brevity] Why don't he roll that initial ambush deployment 10 separates times if you guys are so desperate to prove your tactics?
Because he doesn't need to. You're continually saying we should look at averages - so let's do that. Only let's do it properly.
It's difficult to justify assuming that physical dice follow a normal distribution of results (because everyone uses different dice, rolls them differently, etc), and in reality I think you'd need a multivariate model to really sift through this, but YOLO, right? Assumptions in hand, the single most common result you should expect to see in an infinite number of rolls is 1/3 of shogun's army rolling a 1-2 on the Ambush table. That doesn't mean this is the result you should plan for. It just means it's the most common. I can't remember how to do the calculation or what tables to look on to find the answer, but "most common" doesn't mean "90% of the time". it's something like 30-40 percent, so 30-40 times out of 100 you can expect to see the mean result. The other 60 rolls will turn up some combination of rolls - 95% of which fall within 2 s.d. of the mean. If your plan covers all these cases, it's a good plan.
Note that even in your "mean" case, 50% of shogun's army will land a 4-6 and thus will be within 6" of your front line. One sixth of it will be within 3" of your line. For an army of 14 units we'll say that's one unit with a 6, 1 unit with a 3, 6 units with 1-2 and 6 units with a 4-5. Is that enough to stop your dudes lifting off? Also bear in mind that any units arriving on a 2 which do so from your board edge can move to within 1" of your models ("following all rules for movement", says the FAQ!).
That's the mean case. What about the majority of the time? Well, most of the results (95%) will be within 2 s.d. of the mean - without calculating, I'm going to assume 50% of units rolling 1-2 and 50% getting a 3 would be within 2 s.d. of the mean case. Even here 7 units are within 9" of your front line, which is 8" out or whatever. Your monsters can now fly, but their 9" Novas will hit a couple of dudes at best - maybe Warpflame will inflict a few more hits, maybe it won't. Either way your Swoopers are now locked into flying in specific directions or dropping to Glide in front of a Fearless GSC foot horde.
So, yeah. In all but the most uncommon of cases the GSC player can quite safely push his models down your throat, dominate the centre, and force you onto the back foot. In the uncommon cases he can play the hiding game - or he can just Infiltrate normally and **still** beat you to the middle.
Now again you love to go back to the assuming game that only makes your argument look dumb. Yeah in a game of dice any thing could happen and luck do play a big part. But we are not playing a actual game in RL or on Vassal. This is a anti-GSC tactics thread, we are only talking most likely probabilities and averages.
... except when it comes to Cult Ambush and rolling Telepathic Summons, in which case we must assume the GSC player can't ever get the results he needs to make his plan work (despite the fact he almost always will, see above).
Either way your whole speil involves bullying a win out of the GSC with Magnus and Kairos. That's it. You're going to fly these dudes forward and just pwn all the Hybrids forever because they're so awesome. That's not a feasible "tactic" considering I can redeploy all my dudes at the drop of a hat. You can beat GSC with Daemons, and Novas will be an important part of doing that - but you're not just going to shove the Daemon Primarch forward and ask me to remove models. I can make it more difficult than that.
Did you read his bat rep where he went 1-2 at tourney because he admits he rolled badly on the ambush table and the one game he couldn't get summoning? Many times I see that happening for GSC players in my area....
... which is why you need a plan that will survive the corner cases, right? Y'know, those cases when you can't get a Nova past my Denials, your Summoned Daemons all get smashed inside a turn, thus you can't build up any board presence so your flyers are constantly having to drop and risk being thrown in the wood chipper.
Like I said a couple pages ago, Telepathic Summons is supplemental for me. I can recover 20+ dudes a turn just by RttSing my chopped-up squads, which you just don't have the board presence to trap without Summoning Daemons. It's really useful and I like to have it, which is why I bring the Crouchling in addition to 12 Mastery levels so I get 13 shots at it, but I've failed to land it before.
Shogun plays a different way than I do though. I don't know how heavily the 10-man units rely on Summons - they get less dudes back from Numbers Beyond Counting than I do (less units so less resurrection rolls).
So after all that you've proven my point that it is unlikely or uncommon for GSC to be able to consistently cover the kind of area to deny swooping movements completely.
Ofc I expect a GSC player to switch strats if he knows something is not working, that's what good players do and makes the game interesting and challenging. No where did I wrote Magus Is auto win against GSC.... in fact shogun was the one that wrote that in one of his earlier posts that GSC is auto win if FMC castle up In a corner. If you read the previous bunch of posts the debate, all was focusing mainly on GSC trying to deny swooping/movements out of corner deployment. You proved I was right basically.
Also BBAP, i don't know what list you run or assume how you would play. You keep saying how I would win using Novas or whatever, YES that is a big part of my game if a GSC player is dumb enough to stack units up like in the picture shogun posted.
I play to the mission, and if the mission is the relic, that is the focus. If i am 9" from 4-5 of your units surrounding the relic, ofc I'm gonna cast both nova. I have 17+d6 dices, Magnus casts siphon magic, then everyone proceed to flame, flicker fire to rack up WC. I plan to throw 8-9 dice with fateweaver at it, re-roll 1s. If it generate 4-6 WC, your magus unit will need 8-12 to deny effectively. Magnus then throw 6-7 at the nova going off at 2+. Base on probabilities how many Novas can you deny?
Please stop saying how you will get your guys back by Rtts, i already wrote a good player will not shoot down a GSC unit that is too far away that he can't finish off or deny RttS. I will make sure my screamer star turbo boosts In order to deny as many units from rtts
@shogun, I never asked you to post any pics or 'pretend play'. You took the liberty of doing it yourself while assuming how I would deploy. Then I posted a pic of a true corner deployment far larger than your previous, then you decide to post a third pic of complete different type of deployment for me. And you get mad When I don't feel like playing your dumb forum game your trying to force on me? if you want a game we can play on vassal properly.
It doesn't matter if you roll 3d6 or 2d6 for those units. In order to cover the frontal circular arch of a big bubble wrap I shown, you MUST guarentee 6s for atleast 2-3 units every time. Of the 2-3 units, one must be atleast 10 man or larger. The next bunch of layers 6" away from my frontal arch you need even more units to roll 4s and 5s. Why don't you give up on this arguement that even BBAP failed to defend you. IT DOES NOT WORK on a consistent basis.
So I was really worried about using my Eldar in tourneys because of GSC. But bless GW, they just gave Eldar another buff. Apparently there is a detachment of 1-4 units of Black Guardians (of which can all be Windriders). If you take 4 units, you can reserve them all and Deep Strike turn 1 with NO Scatter, well no Deep Strike Scatter at least. There will be plenty of Scatter....lasers.
So it looks like Eldar can null deploy and give GSC first turn. Still tricky, but much better than deploying and having every single jetbike unit potentially wiped before even getting to shoot (aside from overwatch).
It doesn't matter if you roll 3d6 or 2d6 for those units. In order to cover the frontal circular arch of a big bubble wrap I shown, you MUST guarentee 6s for atleast 2-3 units every time. Of the 2-3 units, one must be atleast 10 man or larger. The next bunch of layers 6" away from my frontal arch you need even more units to roll 4s and 5s. Why don't you give up on this arguement that even BBAP failed to defend you. IT DOES NOT WORK on a consistent basis.
HA, blocking your FMC in that 'hammer and anvil' setup of yours is so easy it's not even a debate.
I use (normal) infiltrate for my patriarch units (18 inch) so that I got 2 fearless bubbles at the right spot.
Then my 20 acolyte unit + primus roll 2,2,3 and deploy 9 inch away in the middle.
Then my other 20 acolyte unit roll 2,4 and deploy 6 inch to your right.
Then my 10 metamorph roll 1,2 but outflank at the right side:
Then my 10 metamorph roll 2,3 and deploy 9 inch away at the other side
then my 10 metamorph roll 1,6 and deploy 3 inch away
How can you say it doesn't matter if I roll 2or3d6 for cult ambush? At this point I already closed of almost everyting.
Then I still got to roll (single dice) for my 2 genestealer units, 5 acolytes, 5 metamorphs And 2x10 neophytes.
I roll a 6 for my neophyte unit and a 5 for my genestealer (free run forward with fleet reroll).. and its closed...
If my big acolyte units (3xd6 + 2xd6) both only roll 1 or 2, then yes I'am going to deploy the rest in the back and just do it guerrilla style.
I don't even care if one of your FMC escapes as long as I can lock down the other 2 I'am good.
SonsofVulkan wrote: So after all that you've proven my point that it is unlikely or uncommon for GSC to be able to consistently cover the kind of area to deny swooping movements completely.
Moving goalposts? Bad form. If your point this whole time has been "GSC can't stop every possible Swooping move I can make at deployment if I deploy like so" then it's facile. GSC don't need to do that, just control your Swooping so it can't be used to deliver effective Novas into midfield. That, they can do. That's part of the reason you can't bully a win out of GSC with Magnus.
If your point has been "this will chase GSC out of the middle so I can dominate it" then you're wrong. Nobody's denying that you'll kill some dudes. Maybe you'll kill 20 dudes. Maybe you won't. Point is I don't care that you killed some dudes. They're Hybrids - they're supposed to get killed. You can't kill enough dudes to make me drop the Relic because I can deploy so your Novas won't get close enough, and can Deny one of them if they do.
Also SubUp units get Shrouded first turn wether or not Night Fighting is in effect so nobody cares about Flickering Fire or whatever. If they end up up front then you'll kill less dudes.
Also BBAP, i don't know what list you run or assume how you would play. You keep saying how I would win using Novas or whatever, YES that is a big part of my game if a GSC player is dumb enough to stack units up like in the picture shogun posted.
We're talking about a specific "anti-Genestealer tactic" which was proposed by you and some other Magnus player. No assumptions are being made - you've **said** this is what you'd do if the GSC deploy a certain way during a certain mission, right? Of course it is, you just said it again right there. What I'm saying is that I can set up to neutralise or limit the effectiveness of this tactic, and can do so while maintaining a reasonable position from which to tackle the rest of the game. What shogun's doing is showing you how he'd go about that.
Note that at no point has anyone said Magnus armies can't beat GSC. The point is, and always has been, that your specific tactic is not an effective way to htrow the GSC out of midfield. It's obvious and easy to get around, like the goons who think they can bubblewrap with a single Kroot squad or shove a Wraithknight at me and expect me not to charge it because "lol T8". It's probably the first thing I'd be trying to counter if I saw you playing Magnus, to be honest.
I play to the mission, and if the mission is the relic, that is the focus. If i am 9" from 4-5 of your units surrounding the relic, ofc I'm gonna cast both nova. I have 17+d6 dices, Magnus casts siphon magic, then everyone proceed to flame, flicker fire to rack up WC. I plan to throw 8-9 dice with fateweaver at it, re-roll 1s. If it generate 4-6 WC, your magus unit will need 8-12 to deny effectively. Magnus then throw 6-7 at the nova going off at 2+. Base on probabilities how many Novas can you deny?
In that situation I'd throw them all at Fateweaver's Nova and let Magnus' go off. That's the point, really - either you throw all your dice at killing some Neophytes out of the front ranks, because you're not close enough to do anything else, or you throw less dice at doing that, risking Denials, and try to do a bit of Summoning. I'd go with the latter myself, but if you're convinced Magnus can be used to bully out a win then have at it.
Either way - and this is the crucial thing - you're not dominating anything. You said you'd "dominate" and "control" the middle. Deploying on your doorstep allows me to prevent that. What you're doing is trying to wrest domination and control from me - which I can prevent at deployment.
Then again, if we're playing the mission and there's nothing in midfield I need to hold then I can deploy elsewise.
Please stop saying how you will get your guys back by Rtts, i already wrote a good player will not shoot down a GSC unit that is too far away that he can't finish off or deny RttS. I will make sure my screamer star turbo boosts In order to deny as many units from rtts
Protip: Denying RttS is a sacrifice move unless you're doing it with an actual CC unit. Five Screamers and a Herald is not a CC unit. It's a tawdry little annoyance, one that becomes infinitely less annoying when it's stuck in combat, which it will be if it flies into my front liners to deny them RttS. By all means dedicate some resources to unlocking it - anything you throw into the combat is something you're not throwing at my Relic-bearers.
In all fairness though, if I was playing your army this is what I'd do too. The difference is I spent Warp Dice turn one Summoning in Flesh Hounds and Daemonettes, so I have the resources to hand to snap the star out of it before a Patriarch gets an opportunity to one-shot the Grimoire Herald. You didn't. You Nova'd some Neophytes that nobody cares about and are now "dominating" an empty midfield while the Relic goes for a walk.
It doesn't matter if you roll 3d6 or 2d6 for those units. In order to cover the frontal circular arch of a big bubble wrap I shown, you MUST guarentee 6s for atleast 2-3 units every time. Of the 2-3 units, one must be atleast 10 man or larger. The next bunch of layers 6" away from my frontal arch you need even more units to roll 4s and 5s. Why don't you give up on this arguement that even BBAP failed to defend you. IT DOES NOT WORK on a consistent basis.
It does work on a consistent basis. your own "My First Division" efforts at numerical modelling suggest it's a reliable way to prevent the specific thing you think you're going to do.
tl;dr - Magnus is not intimidating, the tactic you're proposing is not a solid way to sort out GSC in a Relic mission - or indeed any other mission if they deploy on top of you - and it's time to look elsewhere.
While I feel that Daemons are still a more competitive army than GSC, I have to agree that Magnus is not a good match for them. Magnus relies on there being more elite type units around to really get his points worth. Even with a potential 5 Witchfires per turn, Magnus is just too costly against MSU....which GSC seems to do better than any other army.
A better answer to GSC for Daemon is to take it's own MSU, which is still pretty good. We have discussed the Skyhost full of Screamers, but there is also the Murder Horde full of Flesh Hounds. I could see a Tallyband full of Nurglings + a Murder horde preforming rather well against GSC. The Nurglings would provide the ability to Infiltrate to spread across the board 9taking turns with the GSC infiltrators) and the Hounds could scout forward to support them. Or the Murder Horde could huddle up and invite you to attempt assaulting and be brutally punished by the counter assault.
I actually played against a double gorepack army at a tournament and while it's not MSU daemon codex it's the same idea.
It's a pretty mean match up. The one huge advantage that you neglect to mention is grenades. I could stick to cover and just wait for my opponent to charge me.
Also in that match up, the GSC player has a WAY better primaris power in the form of mass hypynosis. I lost 2 models to the first of Khorne in assault, both to pistols over watch. Making the opponent -1 initiative is pretty darn good.
Those two things combined meant I was more than often swinging first which for my army is incredibly important as with so many mid to high strength attacks I can usually finish the fight before it starts if I swing first. If GSC were base I5 you see a whole lot more higher places.
With all that being said, I think it might have been the most fun game I've had with my GSC. So please, definitely play it. It's a blast.
What was that KDK army list if you recall it at all? You say double gorepack, but you also mention a fist of khorne, and it is very unlikely those three formations can fit in an 1850 list unless they are literally the only formations taken.
It doesn't matter if you roll 3d6 or 2d6 for those units. In order to cover the frontal circular arch of a big bubble wrap I shown, you MUST guarentee 6s for atleast 2-3 units every time. Of the 2-3 units, one must be atleast 10 man or larger. The next bunch of layers 6" away from my frontal arch you need even more units to roll 4s and 5s. Why don't you give up on this arguement that even BBAP failed to defend you. IT DOES NOT WORK on a consistent basis.
HA, blocking your FMC in that 'hammer and anvil' setup of yours is so easy it's not even a debate.
I use (normal) infiltrate for my patriarch units (18 inch) so that I got 2 fearless bubbles at the right spot.
Then my 20 acolyte unit + primus roll 2,2,3 and deploy 9 inch away in the middle.
Then my other 20 acolyte unit roll 2,4 and deploy 6 inch to your right.
Then my 10 metamorph roll 1,2 but outflank at the right side:
Then my 10 metamorph roll 2,3 and deploy 9 inch away at the other side
then my 10 metamorph roll 1,6 and deploy 3 inch away
How can you say it doesn't matter if I roll 2or3d6 for cult ambush? At this point I already closed of almost everyting.
Then I still got to roll (single dice) for my 2 genestealer units, 5 acolytes, 5 metamorphs And 2x10 neophytes.
I roll a 6 for my neophyte unit and a 5 for my genestealer (free run forward with fleet reroll).. and its closed...
If my big acolyte units (3xd6 + 2xd6) both only roll 1 or 2, then yes I'am going to deploy the rest in the back and just do it guerrilla style.
I don't even care if one of your FMC escapes as long as I can lock down the other 2 I'am good.
Lol you just won't give up huh?
I collapse what's left of my horror and cultist units back 6". Fateweaver swoop 12"-15" forward placing him 1" from your frontal unit. In the shooting phase I can either run him off the board or swoop him another 18-24" forward on turn 2 (green arrow). Also like another person posted earlier, how do you stop Fatey and LoC swapping positions via swooping??
And do you realize how many of your models will be under a 9" nova range base on your ambush? You will reallly need to deny both novas and any flamed templates. The only thing that needs to swoop is Fatey, if I have cursed earth everybody else has 2++ with re-rolls
andysonic1 wrote: What was that KDK army list if you recall it at all? You say double gorepack, but you also mention a fist of khorne, and it is very unlikely those three formations can fit in an 1850 list unless they are literally the only formations taken.
Off memory it was a fist of khorne and double gore pack, the dog squads all had 6 members and the bikes had double melta.
Also as an aside to the big chain going back and forth which I don't really want to get too involved in but you can't literally swap models. Each unit must complete it's movement first. I'm betting they're probably room to make that happen but you can't pick up both models at the same time, swap them, and call that your movement phase.
andysonic1 wrote: What was that KDK army list if you recall it at all? You say double gorepack, but you also mention a fist of khorne, and it is very unlikely those three formations can fit in an 1850 list unless they are literally the only formations taken.
Off memory it was a fist of khorne and double gore pack, the dog squads all had 6 members and the bikes had double melta.
Also as an aside to the big chain going back and forth which I don't really want to get too involved in but you can't literally swap models. Each unit must complete it's movement first. I'm betting they're probably room to make that happen but you can't pick up both models at the same time, swap them, and call that your movement phase.
Ofcourse, thats why you leave enough space around LoC to fit Fatey next to him, then LoC flys off to where Fatey was.
andysonic1 wrote: What was that KDK army list if you recall it at all? You say double gorepack, but you also mention a fist of khorne, and it is very unlikely those three formations can fit in an 1850 list unless they are literally the only formations taken.
Off memory it was a fist of khorne and double gore pack, the dog squads all had 6 members and the bikes had double melta.
Yup, that'll fit. I've never been a huge fan of the Fist of Khorne due to it being such a huge point investment. Did your opponent not assault out of it?
SonsofVulkan wrote: So after all that you've proven my point that it is unlikely or uncommon for GSC to be able to consistently cover the kind of area to deny swooping movements completely.
Moving goalposts? Bad form. If your point this whole time has been "GSC can't stop every possible Swooping move I can make at deployment if I deploy like so" then it's facile. GSC don't need to do that, just control your Swooping so it can't be used to deliver effective Novas into midfield. That, they can do. That's part of the reason you can't bully a win out of GSC with Magnus.
If your point has been "this will chase GSC out of the middle so I can dominate it" then you're wrong. Nobody's denying that you'll kill some dudes. Maybe you'll kill 20 dudes. Maybe you won't. Point is I don't care that you killed some dudes. They're Hybrids - they're supposed to get killed. You can't kill enough dudes to make me drop the Relic because I can deploy so your Novas won't get close enough, and can Deny one of them if they do.
Also SubUp units get Shrouded first turn wether or not Night Fighting is in effect so nobody cares about Flickering Fire or whatever. If they end up up front then you'll kill less dudes.
Also BBAP, i don't know what list you run or assume how you would play. You keep saying how I would win using Novas or whatever, YES that is a big part of my game if a GSC player is dumb enough to stack units up like in the picture shogun posted.
We're talking about a specific "anti-Genestealer tactic" which was proposed by you and some other Magnus player. No assumptions are being made - you've **said** this is what you'd do if the GSC deploy a certain way during a certain mission, right? Of course it is, you just said it again right there. What I'm saying is that I can set up to neutralise or limit the effectiveness of this tactic, and can do so while maintaining a reasonable position from which to tackle the rest of the game. What shogun's doing is showing you how he'd go about that.
Note that at no point has anyone said Magnus armies can't beat GSC. The point is, and always has been, that your specific tactic is not an effective way to htrow the GSC out of midfield. It's obvious and easy to get around, like the goons who think they can bubblewrap with a single Kroot squad or shove a Wraithknight at me and expect me not to charge it because "lol T8". It's probably the first thing I'd be trying to counter if I saw you playing Magnus, to be honest.
I play to the mission, and if the mission is the relic, that is the focus. If i am 9" from 4-5 of your units surrounding the relic, ofc I'm gonna cast both nova. I have 17+d6 dices, Magnus casts siphon magic, then everyone proceed to flame, flicker fire to rack up WC. I plan to throw 8-9 dice with fateweaver at it, re-roll 1s. If it generate 4-6 WC, your magus unit will need 8-12 to deny effectively. Magnus then throw 6-7 at the nova going off at 2+. Base on probabilities how many Novas can you deny?
In that situation I'd throw them all at Fateweaver's Nova and let Magnus' go off. That's the point, really - either you throw all your dice at killing some Neophytes out of the front ranks, because you're not close enough to do anything else, or you throw less dice at doing that, risking Denials, and try to do a bit of Summoning. I'd go with the latter myself, but if you're convinced Magnus can be used to bully out a win then have at it.
Either way - and this is the crucial thing - you're not dominating anything. You said you'd "dominate" and "control" the middle. Deploying on your doorstep allows me to prevent that. What you're doing is trying to wrest domination and control from me - which I can prevent at deployment.
Then again, if we're playing the mission and there's nothing in midfield I need to hold then I can deploy elsewise.
Please stop saying how you will get your guys back by Rtts, i already wrote a good player will not shoot down a GSC unit that is too far away that he can't finish off or deny RttS. I will make sure my screamer star turbo boosts In order to deny as many units from rtts
Protip: Denying RttS is a sacrifice move unless you're doing it with an actual CC unit. Five Screamers and a Herald is not a CC unit. It's a tawdry little annoyance, one that becomes infinitely less annoying when it's stuck in combat, which it will be if it flies into my front liners to deny them RttS. By all means dedicate some resources to unlocking it - anything you throw into the combat is something you're not throwing at my Relic-bearers.
In all fairness though, if I was playing your army this is what I'd do too. The difference is I spent Warp Dice turn one Summoning in Flesh Hounds and Daemonettes, so I have the resources to hand to snap the star out of it before a Patriarch gets an opportunity to one-shot the Grimoire Herald. You didn't. You Nova'd some Neophytes that nobody cares about and are now "dominating" an empty midfield while the Relic goes for a walk.
It doesn't matter if you roll 3d6 or 2d6 for those units. In order to cover the frontal circular arch of a big bubble wrap I shown, you MUST guarentee 6s for atleast 2-3 units every time. Of the 2-3 units, one must be atleast 10 man or larger. The next bunch of layers 6" away from my frontal arch you need even more units to roll 4s and 5s. Why don't you give up on this arguement that even BBAP failed to defend you. IT DOES NOT WORK on a consistent basis.
It does work on a consistent basis. your own "My First Division" efforts at numerical modelling suggest it's a reliable way to prevent the specific thing you think you're going to do.
tl;dr - Magnus is not intimidating, the tactic you're proposing is not a solid way to sort out GSC in a Relic mission - or indeed any other mission if they deploy on top of you - and it's time to look elsewhere.
Your statement is very vague concerning how YOU will position things to deny novas effectiveness and still keep the relic safe (we can play on vassal). At least shogun is showing me pictures of how he's positioning things and willing to sacrifice a huge portion of his army out front (not just a few units of hybrids) . I don't care if you play your tactics differently, so far it seems like your defending him the whole time but still fail to prove his idea is any way consistently effective.
The screamer star is very resilient and yes I'm willing to put them out front to prevent multiple "weakened" units from RttS. I can care less if you lock them in combat for a turn, you do know that Novas hit into combat right. What you gonna do throw some maledictions at it, that I deny on 4+?
Why should I spend any dice on summoning, when someone like shogun is willing to throw his army in front of me all packed together??? You think he will have much left by turn 4, if I keep preventing him from RttS?
So I have a buddy at my LGS who is just getting started on GSC. I mostly play Blood Angels and Mechanicus, and all of my AdMech is Skitarii and Kastelan Maniples. Normally I run a Cohort Cybernetica with Cumbustors and TL Hvy Phosphor Blasters.
Would the torrent Str4 Ap5 flamers have a big impact on GSC? What are the odds of him tarpitting my robots through sneakiness? How many acolytes and whatever can I wipe in one shooting phase?
sizzlebutt666 wrote: So I have a buddy at my LGS who is just getting started on GSC. I mostly play Blood Angels and Mechanicus, and all of my AdMech is Skitarii and Kastelan Maniples. Normally I run a Cohort Cybernetica with Cumbustors and TL Hvy Phosphor Blasters.
Would the torrent Str4 Ap5 flamers have a big impact on GSC? What are the odds of him tarpitting my robots through sneakiness? How many acolytes and whatever can I wipe in one shooting phase?
If you have the ability to auto roll 3s on wall of death flamers when he charges, he would need 2-3 units charging into you as the first one should get removed.
Your statement is very vague concerning how YOU will position things to deny novas effectiveness and still keep the relic safe (we can play on vassal). At least shogun is showing me pictures of how he's positioning things and willing to sacrifice a huge portion of his army out front (not just a few units of hybrids) . I don't care if you play your tactics differently, so far it seems like your defending him the whole time but still fail to prove his idea is any way consistently effective.
The screamer star is very resilient and yes I'm willing to put them out front to prevent multiple "weakened" units from RttS. I can care less if you lock them in combat for a turn, you do know that Novas hit into combat right. What you gonna do throw some maledictions at it, that I deny on 4+?
Why should I spend any dice on summoning, when someone like shogun is willing to throw his army in front of me all packed together??? You think he will have much left by turn 4, if I keep preventing him from RttS?
Did a few test games in this Hammer and anvil / relic setup. It all depends on a few things.
- Warlord trait: I would roll strategic (with reroll) to try to get +1 seize. If I got this but don't get first turn/deployment then I would take risk in deploying offensively but that also depends on the following:
- Do I get summoning? If I don't then theirs also the last daelbreaker:
- Do I get first turn? If I do then I'am facing a reroll seize (fateweaver formation) but if I really wanted to try to get a big win I could take the risk. GSC having first turn really makes the difference, because I could assault the bubble wrap (6 result) and only face one round of shooting(with shrouded) after all my units can assault turn 2. If I don't get first turn then daemons can take out the '6' result units and shoot, and then GSC cannot assault but only move forward, and next deamon turn 2 the shoot again. without summoning that could be to much to handle for 4+ turns.
If I don't get the first turn and no summoning then I'am going to play the guerrilla game, depending on the mission. Also if both my big acolyte units got a 1/2 result (very unlikely but if) then I would also deploy in the back. I would just then take out the (from the shadows) horrors, sorcerer and herald to kill of warp charge.
But when I do get (to keep) first turn then my GSC got the upper hand. I don't care if an FMC escapes as long as I can take down the screamers, horrors and lock in the other two FMC. In most cases it goes well for the GSC in that scenario.
Most times I can block at least one nova because it's not hard to make sure that a magus-unit is within 9 inch (deny on a 4+) or the daemon player got to use almost all his dice to make sure it goes of. Even then it also depends on the d6 strength.
Also, with daemons and GSC every game got some random result that really shakes things up. One game I lost 2 patriarch's because of 2x 11 warp storm results and the got killed. On the other hand I also got a fateweaver falling out of the sky because of the 'nurgle' warp storm hits and a LOC also falling out of the sky because of a perils wound in the same turn. The both got assaulted and killed fateweaver. Also once got 6 units coming out of the shadows with cult ambush and the all roll a 1/2 result. But thats part of the game and even more so for daemons and GSC.
andysonic1 wrote: What was that KDK army list if you recall it at all? You say double gorepack, but you also mention a fist of khorne, and it is very unlikely those three formations can fit in an 1850 list unless they are literally the only formations taken.
Off memory it was a fist of khorne and double gore pack, the dog squads all had 6 members and the bikes had double melta.
Yup, that'll fit. I've never been a huge fan of the Fist of Khorne due to it being such a huge point investment. Did your opponent not assault out of it?
He did, I misspoke earlier, it did kill a unit of 5 acolytes and lost two berzerkers to rending in return. I went second and deployed all my guys except 3 squads of 5 acolyts on the left. I deployed the 3x5 acolytes on the right over an objective. the fist of khorne didn't want to get multched by a counter-assault so he beat up one of the units on the right side of the map. I returned to shadow with basically my whole army on turn 1.
He finished killing the 3 squads on his turn 2. My turn 2 the whole army reappeared on the right side. I only rolled a single 6 but it was on my giant 20 man acolyte blob, my warlord trait was the "pick ambush result" luckly so the warlord brought in 10 metamorphs. I run 6 psyckers in my army and roll them mostly on brood table so I usually end up with a lot of buffs. So I added plus 1 strength and rage to the 20 man unit, I also let them run and charge with another power, letting them get an inch away from his giant squad, then I cast mass hypnosis on the berzerkers, he blocked it, then I cast it again, failed, then again, and succeeded. So I charged in with 20 guys, who swung first, with hatred, hit on 3s, rending, and are now strength 6. He picked up his guys after the first 20 dice killed half the squad. My warlords unit charged the drop pod thing (which he could have flown but chose not to for maelstrom reasons I believe? It wasn't a good idea though and if I weren't playing him in a tournament I would have told him to fly it) and overkilled it pretty convincingly with 46 rending strength 6 attacks with hatred.
The next turn his dogs which I had ignored to deal with the berzerkers charged like 5 different targets and it took forever to resolve so we ended up getting pretty slowed. So we only made it to turn 4 in which I had to units of obsec neophtyes that returned to shadows, came on and rolled 6s to contest his objective. He won maelstrom because he rolled multiple "kill 2 units" and despite me killing three units a turn easily I always rolled line breaker and objectives. I won primary with the last turn contesting. His warlord however was a seargant in the first of khorne so I got warlord and linebreaker and big game hunter for the first of khorne while he just got maelstrom because I had won most of the combats that he started so he had no dogs left to get line breaker.
Having 60 guys in assault with 30 dogs takes freaking FOREVER to resolve, that's the biggest issue with that match up. It's not quite as annoying as working out a giant multi-assault but it's still time consuming because I had to roll nearly 200 dice and he had to roll over 100 and due to hammer of wrath always killing 0-3 guys its not like I could just have a block of dice and keep rolling it. He also had fnp up the whole game so his saves are re-rollable, my hits often have hatred, so more re-rolls. I had the acolyte iconward so my saves ALSO need to be re-rolled. Basically for each wound off a dog I rolled 5 rounds of dice. We weren't trying to play as absolute fast as possible, fair enough, but I like the guy and enjoy talking some during the game, it's a shame that when you play this army you're penalized for that. I was in the process of tabling him and would have made up the difference in maelstrrom by turn 5, turn 6 at the latest but we only got to 4 so it came down to me rolling the right cult ambush on my obsec guys.
shogun wrote: @ Sonsofvulkan: did you look at the last deployment photo? Is this how you would deploy? Your very strait forward about what you would'nt do but then let me know what is your deployment tactics. I'am even going to give you first turn. Question: Is fateweaver your warlord + do you use the tzeentch warpstorm table?
SonsofVulkan wrote:There was 11 GSC armies in LVO, there are probably just as many if not less Magnus lists. GSC codex came out much earlier than WoM, so GSC players had much more time to test play.
Yes, but like I said. Daemon players that already got a (tzeentch) daemon army only got to buy a single model. A full GSC-army with acolytes and Metamorphs mean you got to buy 100+ models. 5 acolytes/metamorphs cost sumthing around 30 dollars I believe, so theirs no surprise that they're not a lot of armies like that. I havent seen the LVOGSC armylist's, but most times its a lot of tyranid players with genestealers in combination with flying hives.
SonsofVulkan wrote:Unless the big acolyte unit roll a lucky 6 on the ambush table, I doubt you can catch a barkstar control by good player. Most likely a 20 acolyte unit is going to get whittle down by bolters before getting charged. And even if acolyte unit gets 50 wounds in, barkstar gets 4++ with re-rolls + FNP which equivalent to about 8 dead dogs, when they bite back they'll kill all 20 acolytes most likely.
Thats why you first assault with a small unit and then with the big one. You're so hang up on the '6' result but the units that assault out of cult ambush most times only lock the enemy in close combat so that their buddies can come in next turn.
In Dawn of War, yes maybe but much bigger bubble (2" between each horrors and cultists) and because the VSG is a lot bigger. Like I wrote earlier 1/3 of your 14 units should be rolling 1-2 on ambush table, and don't assume all your 20 and 10 man units won't be rolling 1-2s. In ITC/Nova tables, those 2 terrains wouldnt be place there like that.
You are not going to lock a 40 wolf barkstar with Azrael and a priest in combat with a 5-10 man acolyte unit.... They have counter attack with re-roll hits and potentially wounds.
Void shield generator have battlements. Pretty sure he can ambush inside your bubble unless you account for that right. That actually makes your deployment a smaller footprint not bigger.
shogun wrote: @ Sonsofvulkan: did you look at the last deployment photo? Is this how you would deploy? Your very strait forward about what you would'nt do but then let me know what is your deployment tactics. I'am even going to give you first turn. Question: Is fateweaver your warlord + do you use the tzeentch warpstorm table?
SonsofVulkan wrote:There was 11 GSC armies in LVO, there are probably just as many if not less Magnus lists. GSC codex came out much earlier than WoM, so GSC players had much more time to test play.
Yes, but like I said. Daemon players that already got a (tzeentch) daemon army only got to buy a single model. A full GSC-army with acolytes and Metamorphs mean you got to buy 100+ models. 5 acolytes/metamorphs cost sumthing around 30 dollars I believe, so theirs no surprise that they're not a lot of armies like that. I havent seen the LVOGSC armylist's, but most times its a lot of tyranid players with genestealers in combination with flying hives.
SonsofVulkan wrote:Unless the big acolyte unit roll a lucky 6 on the ambush table, I doubt you can catch a barkstar control by good player. Most likely a 20 acolyte unit is going to get whittle down by bolters before getting charged. And even if acolyte unit gets 50 wounds in, barkstar gets 4++ with re-rolls + FNP which equivalent to about 8 dead dogs, when they bite back they'll kill all 20 acolytes most likely.
Thats why you first assault with a small unit and then with the big one. You're so hang up on the '6' result but the units that assault out of cult ambush most times only lock the enemy in close combat so that their buddies can come in next turn.
In Dawn of War, yes maybe but much bigger bubble (2" between each horrors and cultists) and because the VSG is a lot bigger. Like I wrote earlier 1/3 of your 14 units should be rolling 1-2 on ambush table, and don't assume all your 20 and 10 man units won't be rolling 1-2s. In ITC/Nova tables, those 2 terrains wouldnt be place there like that.
You are not going to lock a 40 wolf barkstar with Azrael and a priest in combat with a 5-10 man acolyte unit.... They have counter attack with re-roll hits and potentially wounds.
Void shield generator have battlements. Pretty sure he can ambush inside your bubble unless you account for that right. That actually makes your deployment a smaller footprint not bigger.
Your statement is very vague concerning how YOU will position things to deny novas effectiveness and still keep the relic safe (we can play on vassal). At least shogun is showing me pictures of how he's positioning things and willing to sacrifice a huge portion of his army out front (not just a few units of hybrids) . I don't care if you play your tactics differently, so far it seems like your defending him the whole time but still fail to prove his idea is any way consistently effective.
The screamer star is very resilient and yes I'm willing to put them out front to prevent multiple "weakened" units from RttS. I can care less if you lock them in combat for a turn, you do know that Novas hit into combat right. What you gonna do throw some maledictions at it, that I deny on 4+?
Why should I spend any dice on summoning, when someone like shogun is willing to throw his army in front of me all packed together??? You think he will have much left by turn 4, if I keep preventing him from RttS?
Did a few test games in this Hammer and anvil / relic setup. It all depends on a few things.
- Warlord trait: I would roll strategic (with reroll) to try to get +1 seize. If I got this but don't get first turn/deployment then I would take risk in deploying offensively but that also depends on the following:
- Do I get summoning? If I don't then theirs also the last daelbreaker:
- Do I get first turn? If I do then I'am facing a reroll seize (fateweaver formation) but if I really wanted to try to get a big win I could take the risk. GSC having first turn really makes the difference, because I could assault the bubble wrap (6 result) and only face one round of shooting(with shrouded) after all my units can assault turn 2. If I don't get first turn then daemons can take out the '6' result units and shoot, and then GSC cannot assault but only move forward, and next deamon turn 2 the shoot again. without summoning that could be to much to handle for 4+ turns.
If I don't get the first turn and no summoning then I'am going to play the guerrilla game, depending on the mission. Also if both my big acolyte units got a 1/2 result (very unlikely but if) then I would also deploy in the back. I would just then take out the (from the shadows) horrors, sorcerer and herald to kill of warp charge.
But when I do get (to keep) first turn then my GSC got the upper hand. I don't care if an FMC escapes as long as I can take down the screamers, horrors and lock in the other two FMC. In most cases it goes well for the GSC in that scenario.
Most times I can block at least one nova because it's not hard to make sure that a magus-unit is within 9 inch (deny on a 4+) or the daemon player got to use almost all his dice to make sure it goes of. Even then it also depends on the d6 strength.
Also, with daemons and GSC every game got some random result that really shakes things up. One game I lost 2 patriarch's because of 2x 11 warp storm results and the got killed. On the other hand I also got a fateweaver falling out of the sky because of the 'nurgle' warp storm hits and a LOC also falling out of the sky because of a perils wound in the same turn. The both got assaulted and killed fateweaver. Also once got 6 units coming out of the shadows with cult ambush and the all roll a 1/2 result. But thats part of the game and even more so for daemons and GSC.
That statement was for BBAP but I'm glad you gave up playing that picture game to prove a useless point.
The bubble wrapping units are there to die, I don't care if you take them out or not if you get first turn or 2nd. You will not be able to touch the screamers unless you get first turn and shoot at them with the units you roll 6s with (VSG will protect from the rest).
No warp storm table for my army, CSM is primary detachment. There are much less randomness for my army than yours, regardless stop banking on your opponent rolling like crap in order to win.
SonsofVulkan wrote: Your statement is very vague concerning how YOU will position things to deny novas effectiveness and still keep the relic safe (we can play on vassal). At least shogun is showing me pictures of how he's positioning things and willing to sacrifice a huge portion of his army out front (not just a few units of hybrids) .
He's showing you pictures. You said that's fake-hammer. I'm going off numbers. You're saying that's "vague".
Sixty models stacked in midfield starting 6" away from your DZ prevents you Swooping into midfield. Add another five or ten 2" ahead of that front and now you can't Nova my dudes on the Relic even if you walk right up to my front line.
You can Nova the dudes in front of the dudes on the Relic, but who cares? Maybe you kill some guys, maybe you roll amazingly and kill them all. Nobody cares. They're there to die. That's what GSC is all about; the trick isn't to prevent your units dying, it's to make sure they die correctly.
Deployment type is immaterial; the numbers are the same in all cases.
We've dealt with the reliability of Cult Ambush elsewhere, and what we'd do if the dice don't roll statistically, so I'm not going back over that again.
Is that specific enough for you? Do you need me to do a blow-by-blow of how exactly I'd go about setting this all up at deployment, or would that just be "fake-hammer" or whatever?
I don't care if you play your tactics differently, so far it seems like your defending him the whole time but still fail to prove his idea is any way consistently effective.
It's not a question of tactics. It's a question of numbers. Sixty bodies in midfield will keep you away from the Relic. Sixty bodies is maybe half my army, if I bring my 1650pt list to an 1850pt game. If I don't it's slightly less than half my army. Sixty is the bare minimum too.
The screamer star is very resilient
Yes, I've run one myself. They're very resilient indeed - provided you roll statistically on your Grimoire, and Kairos manages to fish up a nice Warp Storm result (or you cast Cursed Earth).
A feature of this thread seems to be your Daemons rolling statistically while the GSC player is rolling poorly. So much for playing the odds and keeping an ace back for a rainy day. If your Grimoire fails when you're stuck in combat with 20-odd Genestealer hybrids you're gonna have a bad time.
and yes I'm willing to put them out front to prevent multiple "weakened" units from RttS
Protip: Multiple weakened units = one strong unit. You'll care quick enough once you start rolling saves for Mr Grimoire, I'll wager.
I can care less if you lock them in combat for a turn, you do know that Novas hit into combat right. What you gonna do throw some maledictions at it, that I deny on 4+?
You're seriously over-estimating the damage your Screamers can do in close combat. 15 WS3 S4 attacks will kill - what, five dudes? Six? You're going to get hit by more than six dudes if you run your Screamers into the remnants of a midfield blob.
"Yes but my Screamers are resilient!" - And my dudes are Fearless. You have to kill them all to get out of combat.
"I'll kill the Patriarch!" - He has the same stats as a vanilla Daemon Prince and he auto-passes Look Out Sirs, even in challenges, so he essentially has 8-13 wounds while he's with a squad. Also I have five of them. Patriarch**s**. Plural.
Please feel free to throw Novas into the combat though. If you stop/ turn back to do that then it means my Relic carriers are getting away un-Nova'd.
I don't know what's with these unrealistic expectations Daemons players seem to have about their Screamerstars, especially these piddly little 5-model ones. Just because it's hard to kill doesn't mean it's worth killing.
Why should I spend any dice on summoning, when someone like shogun is willing to throw his army in front of me all packed together??? You think he will have much left by turn 4, if I keep preventing him from RttS?
How will you do that? I mean you've already failed to prevent any units that rolled a 1-2 at deployment from RttSing and most of your force is now committed to the midfield action - what have you got left to deny RttS with? Are you going to divert your FMCs to block RttS? Hope the Screamers can chew their way out of CC fast enough to matter?
SonsofVulkan wrote: Your statement is very vague concerning how YOU will position things to deny novas effectiveness and still keep the relic safe (we can play on vassal). At least shogun is showing me pictures of how he's positioning things and willing to sacrifice a huge portion of his army out front (not just a few units of hybrids) .
He's showing you pictures. You said that's fake-hammer. I'm going off numbers. You're saying that's "vague".
Sixty models stacked in midfield starting 6" away from your DZ prevents you Swooping into midfield. Add another five or ten 2" ahead of that front and now you can't Nova my dudes on the Relic even if you walk right up to my front line.
You can Nova the dudes in front of the dudes on the Relic, but who cares? Maybe you kill some guys, maybe you roll amazingly and kill them all. Nobody cares. They're there to die. That's what GSC is all about; the trick isn't to prevent your units dying, it's to make sure they die correctly.
Deployment type is immaterial; the numbers are the same in all cases.
We've dealt with the reliability of Cult Ambush elsewhere, and what we'd do if the dice don't roll statistically, so I'm not going back over that again.
Is that specific enough for you? Do you need me to do a blow-by-blow of how exactly I'd go about setting this all up at deployment, or would that just be "fake-hammer" or whatever?
I don't care if you play your tactics differently, so far it seems like your defending him the whole time but still fail to prove his idea is any way consistently effective.
It's not a question of tactics. It's a question of numbers. Sixty bodies in midfield will keep you away from the Relic. Sixty bodies is maybe half my army, if I bring my 1650pt list to an 1850pt game. If I don't it's slightly less than half my army. Sixty is the bare minimum too.
The screamer star is very resilient
Yes, I've run one myself. They're very resilient indeed - provided you roll statistically on your Grimoire, and Kairos manages to fish up a nice Warp Storm result (or you cast Cursed Earth).
A feature of this thread seems to be your Daemons rolling statistically while the GSC player is rolling poorly. So much for playing the odds and keeping an ace back for a rainy day. If your Grimoire fails when you're stuck in combat with 20-odd Genestealer hybrids you're gonna have a bad time.
and yes I'm willing to put them out front to prevent multiple "weakened" units from RttS
Protip: Multiple weakened units = one strong unit. You'll care quick enough once you start rolling saves for Mr Grimoire, I'll wager.
I can care less if you lock them in combat for a turn, you do know that Novas hit into combat right. What you gonna do throw some maledictions at it, that I deny on 4+?
You're seriously over-estimating the damage your Screamers can do in close combat. 15 WS3 S4 attacks will kill - what, five dudes? Six? You're going to get hit by more than six dudes if you run your Screamers into the remnants of a midfield blob.
"Yes but my Screamers are resilient!" - And my dudes are Fearless. You have to kill them all to get out of combat.
"I'll kill the Patriarch!" - He has the same stats as a vanilla Daemon Prince and he auto-passes Look Out Sirs, even in challenges, so he essentially has 8-13 wounds while he's with a squad. Also I have five of them. Patriarch**s**. Plural.
Please feel free to throw Novas into the combat though. If you stop/ turn back to do that then it means my Relic carriers are getting away un-Nova'd.
I don't know what's with these unrealistic expectations Daemons players seem to have about their Screamerstars, especially these piddly little 5-model ones. Just because it's hard to kill doesn't mean it's worth killing.
Why should I spend any dice on summoning, when someone like shogun is willing to throw his army in front of me all packed together??? You think he will have much left by turn 4, if I keep preventing him from RttS?
How will you do that? I mean you've already failed to prevent any units that rolled a 1-2 at deployment from RttSing and most of your force is now committed to the midfield action - what have you got left to deny RttS with? Are you going to divert your FMCs to block RttS? Hope the Screamers can chew their way out of CC fast enough to matter?
You need more than 60 models to cover mid-field to prevent me from swooping towards the middle, to cover how much shogun showed, he needed almost 100 or more.
No you was not specific about how you would beat FMC and prevent me from getting to the relic in 4 turns. Are you dedicating multiple units to bubble wrap and cover the unit grabbing the relic and at the same time dedicating your "60" additional models to bottle me in (which I highly doubt it)?
Depends on the unit placements and situation, if you charge a bunch of weakened units at the screamer star, I can potentially go into glide mode with LoC and Magnus. Whether to dedicate a nova to help free them up or let them stay in combat and go after the patriarchs or magus unit that is 12" away. You run more smaller MSU than shogun right? How big are the units you attach patriarch and magus to? 5-10 man? He is T5 with only a 4+ armor save, so all your patriarchs units better be in cover and still be 12" from majority of your units. Look there are a lot of options I can take during each turn and so do you, if you don't want to accept that GSC is at a disadvantage then fine, I don't really care.
Concerning RttS, I already told you many times (you obviously don't pay attention), only those units that I am close enough or small enough that I know I can wipe will be shot at. Those units that are too far away will be ignored, and sure go ahead and RttS those units. As long as I can prevent those WEAKENED units from RttS, I'll be happy.
SonsofVulkan wrote: That statement was for BBAP but I'm glad you gave up playing that picture game to prove a useless point.
Thats because every game I play out the GSC got daemons in the ropes if the get (to keep) first turn, and I will show you pictures for that..
If the do the whole in your face setup without first turn the odd's are "equal" and it really depends on the few things I mentioned . At that moment the result of a few dice could mean a win or lose for both armies.
I got games when the GSC got 2 big high strength nova's in their face and that forced them to go back into the shadows and play the mission from that point on. And even with losing a big chunk the can still win the mission. Thats because I can manage to keep the daemons from the objectives for the first 2 turns and after that the get to do the guerrilla game and pop up near the objectives as well.
But always in all cases the daemons don't do the damage that you claim the do. Only the Nova powers really hurt If the get at least Strength 4 or higher and 50% of the time thats not the case.
I can show you great battle report pictures but you would probably just say things like "I would never deploy there and would never do that!" and also every game got sum weird random stuff in it that can really screw up the game for each army.
SonsofVulkan wrote: You need more than 60 models to cover mid-field to prevent me from swooping towards the middle, to cover how much shogun showed, he needed almost 100 or more.
What are you basing that on? Gut instinct? 60 models is a 30x18 inch block of dudes deployed 6" from the edge of your DZ. You cannot - ***cannot*** - Swoop forwards over that, and you can't land in it either. That's an artefact of physical reality and the ruleset of the game. Can't do it. You can bank sideways, but you're not Nova'ing the Relic-bearers. You can Swoop up to it, or Glide up to it, but then you're not in midfield.
Either way your "anti-Genestealer tactic" of flying your monsters forward and trying to muscle a win is stymied. Your reliance on killing everything quickly on all points of the board whilst simultaneously stopping my units from RttSing is likewise unrealistic.
No you was not specific about how you would beat FMC and prevent me from getting to the relic in 4 turns.
The goalposts are dancing again. 4 turns is it now? My gameplan, assuming I deployed this way, would be to deflect and delay your army on turn one using the 60 models in midfield, use another 10-20 to grab the Relic and leave with it, then cover the retreat of the Relic with my Ambushers on turns two and three. Meanwhile your immobile, unsupplemented army is still struggling to cut through my front lines without the help of your FMCs, who are presumably chasing the Relic **and** preventing RttS on the other side of the table **and** somehow Nova'ing the Screamer "star" out of combat all at the same time.
I mean... how do you imagine all this working? Do you have your Magnus and Kairos mounted on hubcaps or something?
Either way, I think once we reach the point where we're talking about 4 turn plans we've lost sight of the original argument. You can't muscle a win out of GSC in a Relic mission by shooting them off the table. You're not killing enough dudes each turn to cut through the roadblocks and prevent the majority of your army being tied down and/ or killed in CC, and even supposing you do, you don't have the footprint to counteract RttS effectively. You might stop the roadblock units RttSing, but they're roadblock units. They're coming at you, so that's not an achievement. You have no way to stop the CAD units nabbing flags behind your back, despite the fact you seem to think you'll "wipe them out" at the same time as you're trying to do everything else you think you'll do.
The obvious answer, to me, is to focus on Summoning instead of shooting - the effectiveness of your shooting falls off a cliff, but you generate a bigger footprint and hence can start thinking about controlling portions of the table in a way you realistically can't if your army is three FMCs and a sackful of gak. You're not going to do that though, because you've decided to muscle a win out of GSC by shooting them, and won't be told otherwise. Good luck with that.
SonsofVulkan wrote: You need more than 60 models to cover mid-field to prevent me from swooping towards the middle, to cover how much shogun showed, he needed almost 100 or more.
What are you basing that on? Gut instinct? 60 models is a 30x18 inch block of dudes deployed 6" from the edge of your DZ. You cannot - ***cannot*** - Swoop forwards over that, and you can't land in it either. That's an artefact of physical reality and the ruleset of the game. Can't do it. You can bank sideways, but you're not Nova'ing the Relic-bearers. You can Swoop up to it, or Glide up to it, but then you're not in midfield.
Either way your "anti-Genestealer tactic" of flying your monsters forward and trying to muscle a win is stymied. Your reliance on killing everything quickly on all points of the board whilst simultaneously stopping my units from RttSing is likewise unrealistic.
No you was not specific about how you would beat FMC and prevent me from getting to the relic in 4 turns.
The goalposts are dancing again. 4 turns is it now? My gameplan, assuming I deployed this way, would be to deflect and delay your army on turn one using the 60 models in midfield, use another 10-20 to grab the Relic and leave with it, then cover the retreat of the Relic with my Ambushers on turns two and three. Meanwhile your immobile, unsupplemented army is still struggling to cut through my front lines without the help of your FMCs, who are presumably chasing the Relic **and** preventing RttS on the other side of the table **and** somehow Nova'ing the Screamer "star" out of combat all at the same time.
I mean... how do you imagine all this working? Do you have your Magnus and Kairos mounted on hubcaps or something?
Either way, I think once we reach the point where we're talking about 4 turn plans we've lost sight of the original argument. You can't muscle a win out of GSC in a Relic mission by shooting them off the table. You're not killing enough dudes each turn to cut through the roadblocks and prevent the majority of your army being tied down and/ or killed in CC, and even supposing you do, you don't have the footprint to counteract RttS effectively. You might stop the roadblock units RttSing, but they're roadblock units. They're coming at you, so that's not an achievement. You have no way to stop the CAD units nabbing flags behind your back, despite the fact you seem to think you'll "wipe them out" at the same time as you're trying to do everything else you think you'll do.
The obvious answer, to me, is to focus on Summoning instead of shooting - the effectiveness of your shooting falls off a cliff, but you generate a bigger footprint and hence can start thinking about controlling portions of the table in a way you realistically can't if your army is three FMCs and a sackful of gak. You're not going to do that though, because you've decided to muscle a win out of GSC by shooting them, and won't be told otherwise. Good luck with that.
What goal post, have you played the ITC relic mission? To score the primary, I don't have contest or control the relic until the very last turn, so preventing me from reaching the relic turn 1-3 don't mean a damn thing if your feeding me 30"x18" stack of models or more. Focus is to wipe out as much as possible and prevent RttS of those that are weakened. You can't move the relic until turn 2 anyways, and only up to 6" moves per turn.
I have not lost sight of the original argument, you under estimate how devastating Tz daemons if a GSC player decides to pack large amount of units together to hinder movement.
First you were going to "dominate" and "control" the middle with mighty FMC nipples. When it was explained to you that no, actually you're going to be chasing the game from deployment, you tried to pretend that Cult Ambush wasn't reliable enough to deploy units where they need to be to deflect your initial attack. You were told - and shown - that it actually was reliable enough; you then decided that your psychic shooting was formidable enough to wipe out 4-50 models a turn, despite the obvious fact that it isn't (even if we ignore the Adamantium Will bubbles and the fact you can't avoid hitting psykers if you're making a push for the Relic).
If you're acknowledging your concerns are invalid each time then raising a new argument, that's fine. That's how discussions evolve. When you're pretending your latest argument was the one you were **really** making all along, that's not good.
To score the primary, I don't have contest or control the relic until the very last turn, so preventing me from reaching the relic turn 1-3 don't mean a damn thing if your feeding me 30"x18" stack of models or more.
... while killing a bunch of dudes every turn means nothing if you don't control the Relic in the final turn. Your shooting isn't going to kill 30+ models per turn I sincerely doubt it's capable of wiping squads unless you really focus it. Your CC is pretty mediocre, which means anything that isn't flying will die, and anything that is flying is going to run out of airspace before it can force me to drop the Relic. Your entire army is going to have to come at me to make any kind of dent in my numbers, and if it does that then anything you Summon will be in my vicinity too. How you'll prevent stuff RttSing around the board at will behind you is a mystery to me, unless you have Magnus and Kairos mounted on 22-inch rimz instead of flying bases.
You can't move the relic until turn 2 anyways, and only up to 6" moves per turn.
I made this point a couple of replies back. I can hold you in midfield until turn two, at which point my Ambushers arrive and I get to cover my retreat with them too.
Focus will be on denying RttS - but to whom exactly? The dudes I'm throwing at you? The dudes on the other side of the table stealing flags? The dudes who walk away from the scrum so they can RttS next turn?
I have not lost sight of the original argument, you under estimate how devastating Tz daemons if a GSC player decides to pack large amount of units together to hinder movement.
I don't think I am. I've dabbled in Tzeentch Daemons before - I know exactly what their shooting is capable of, and that's why I know you're overestimating it massively. Against T3 Warpflame means D3 extra wounds 50% of the time. The other 50% it means FNP(6). The Iconward adds one to that, so my Brood Cycle units will end up with FNP(5) anywhere 24" away from the Icon while everyone else has to be within 12" to get it. 5/6 of the time your Nova won't bypass that. These are Strength D6 Assault 2D6 psychic powers you're using. Add that all up and I'm really not impressed.
You're not Tau. Stop pretending you are. Get Summoning on turn one and don't stop until you have enough Daemons to actually control some of the table.
You're not Tau. Stop pretending you are. Get Summoning on turn one and don't stop until you have enough Daemons to actually control some of the table.
Actually, i heard that Magnus's nipples will become smart missile systems in the next campaign book. He got freaky with a Stormsurge and magic happened!
Ahem...anyway, I'd tend to lean in favor of the GSC on this debate. The board control 20+ units can exert is massive, especially when they're popping up all over the place at will. Novas are all well and good, but Warpflame isn't the answer when the best you can muster is 5 models removed. As Tzeentch, you'd likely be better off trying to simply brute force the game instead of getting tricky with nova positioning and such. Try to take up your own little bubble and advance wherever you need to, circling your FMCs as able. Summoning nonsense into the fray will also obviously help, but fighting the board control battle is futile against GSC for just about every army short of mass guardsmen or Green Tide.
This thread is so fething hilarious. SoV is just walking the goal post all over the field while BBAP and Shogun are trying to politely help him out suggesting he can win if he actually summons rather then trying to go aggro turn 1. Nope, who needs help from guys who actually play both armies...
The sickest point however was SoV trying to talk down to Shogun based on ONE of his RTT results. Seriously? SoV, a guy with arguably the lowest model count competitive army, posts a picture of his grey hammer plastic not even primed then decides to talk down from atop his high horse without providing any data about his own experience or record, no tournament I know of that is worth its salt will let you in the door with that army. Yet you sling mud at a guy who somehow not only has 150+ models painted well and based for GSC, but in a series of pictures that both impressed and made me feel unworthy, he somehow managed to also get YOUR demon army also painted well for his demo in what I can only guess was during his lunch break at this point (seriously how?)
But I guess why bother posting from his own record and experience when he can lean on the old LVO What was it again, you knocked the lack of GSC in the finals? Right, because a tournament KNOWN at this point to be plagued with 4 turn game syndrome is obviously a well spring of useful data lol Pretty sure any none obsec horde army is fethed by that format from word go. If they ever manage to wrestle control back into their own hands they can drop points and maybe games will come to natural conclusions, until then that tournament is all about fun, people and laughs in the city of lights and less about whos army is the best of the best.
Also what is the obsession with ITC's mission the relic?
First you were going to "dominate" and "control" the middle with mighty FMC nipples. When it was explained to you that no, actually you're going to be chasing the game from deployment, you tried to pretend that Cult Ambush wasn't reliable enough to deploy units where they need to be to deflect your initial attack. You were told - and shown - that it actually was reliable enough; you then decided that your psychic shooting was formidable enough to wipe out 4-50 models a turn, despite the obvious fact that it isn't (even if we ignore the Adamantium Will bubbles and the fact you can't avoid hitting psykers if you're making a push for the Relic).
If you're acknowledging your concerns are invalid each time then raising a new argument, that's fine. That's how discussions evolve. When you're pretending your latest argument was the one you were **really** making all along, that's not good.
To score the primary, I don't have contest or control the relic until the very last turn, so preventing me from reaching the relic turn 1-3 don't mean a damn thing if your feeding me 30"x18" stack of models or more.
... while killing a bunch of dudes every turn means nothing if you don't control the Relic in the final turn. Your shooting isn't going to kill 30+ models per turn I sincerely doubt it's capable of wiping squads unless you really focus it. Your CC is pretty mediocre, which means anything that isn't flying will die, and anything that is flying is going to run out of airspace before it can force me to drop the Relic. Your entire army is going to have to come at me to make any kind of dent in my numbers, and if it does that then anything you Summon will be in my vicinity too. How you'll prevent stuff RttSing around the board at will behind you is a mystery to me, unless you have Magnus and Kairos mounted on 22-inch rimz instead of flying bases.
You can't move the relic until turn 2 anyways, and only up to 6" moves per turn.
I made this point a couple of replies back. I can hold you in midfield until turn two, at which point my Ambushers arrive and I get to cover my retreat with them too.
Focus will be on denying RttS - but to whom exactly? The dudes I'm throwing at you? The dudes on the other side of the table stealing flags? The dudes who walk away from the scrum so they can RttS next turn?
I have not lost sight of the original argument, you under estimate how devastating Tz daemons if a GSC player decides to pack large amount of units together to hinder movement.
I don't think I am. I've dabbled in Tzeentch Daemons before - I know exactly what their shooting is capable of, and that's why I know you're overestimating it massively. Against T3 Warpflame means D3 extra wounds 50% of the time. The other 50% it means FNP(6). The Iconward adds one to that, so my Brood Cycle units will end up with FNP(5) anywhere 24" away from the Icon while everyone else has to be within 12" to get it. 5/6 of the time your Nova won't bypass that. These are Strength D6 Assault 2D6 psychic powers you're using. Add that all up and I'm really not impressed.
You're not Tau. Stop pretending you are. Get Summoning on turn one and don't stop until you have enough Daemons to actually control some of the table.
Nope I did not deny the movement hindrance that GSC could cause, however the long useless argument with shogun was the fact that he claim that GSC can deny swooping of FMCs on a consistent basis.
With that aside, yes GSC can deny direct movement of FMCs toward a certain direction(I never deny that in any of my posts), but it will required GSC to put a large of amount models in front of the FMC player instead playing the mobility/hiding game and many of them will have no cover besides the first turn shroud. Learn to read my posts, I mentioned many times that GSC 'feeding' large amount of units stacked up in order to prevent freedom of movement is no problem for Tz FMCs.
Theres no point arguing back and forth unless you want to do a test game. No one can provide any solid tournament and game data of who is truly better in a match since both Magnus and GSC are relatively new. All my posts are strictly my opinion and logic for a ANTI-GSC thread for players who want to beat GSC. So far you GSC fan boys has contributed very little aside from trying so hard to shut down tactics others share.
First you were going to "dominate" and "control" the middle with mighty FMC nipples. When it was explained to you that no, actually you're going to be chasing the game from deployment, you tried to pretend that Cult Ambush wasn't reliable enough to deploy units where they need to be to deflect your initial attack. You were told - and shown - that it actually was reliable enough; you then decided that your psychic shooting was formidable enough to wipe out 4-50 models a turn, despite the obvious fact that it isn't (even if we ignore the Adamantium Will bubbles and the fact you can't avoid hitting psykers if you're making a push for the Relic).
If you're acknowledging your concerns are invalid each time then raising a new argument, that's fine. That's how discussions evolve. When you're pretending your latest argument was the one you were **really** making all along, that's not good.
To score the primary, I don't have contest or control the relic until the very last turn, so preventing me from reaching the relic turn 1-3 don't mean a damn thing if your feeding me 30"x18" stack of models or more.
... while killing a bunch of dudes every turn means nothing if you don't control the Relic in the final turn. Your shooting isn't going to kill 30+ models per turn I sincerely doubt it's capable of wiping squads unless you really focus it. Your CC is pretty mediocre, which means anything that isn't flying will die, and anything that is flying is going to run out of airspace before it can force me to drop the Relic. Your entire army is going to have to come at me to make any kind of dent in my numbers, and if it does that then anything you Summon will be in my vicinity too. How you'll prevent stuff RttSing around the board at will behind you is a mystery to me, unless you have Magnus and Kairos mounted on 22-inch rimz instead of flying bases.
You can't move the relic until turn 2 anyways, and only up to 6" moves per turn.
I made this point a couple of replies back. I can hold you in midfield until turn two, at which point my Ambushers arrive and I get to cover my retreat with them too.
Focus will be on denying RttS - but to whom exactly? The dudes I'm throwing at you? The dudes on the other side of the table stealing flags? The dudes who walk away from the scrum so they can RttS next turn?
I have not lost sight of the original argument, you under estimate how devastating Tz daemons if a GSC player decides to pack large amount of units together to hinder movement.
I don't think I am. I've dabbled in Tzeentch Daemons before - I know exactly what their shooting is capable of, and that's why I know you're overestimating it massively. Against T3 Warpflame means D3 extra wounds 50% of the time. The other 50% it means FNP(6). The Iconward adds one to that, so my Brood Cycle units will end up with FNP(5) anywhere 24" away from the Icon while everyone else has to be within 12" to get it. 5/6 of the time your Nova won't bypass that. These are Strength D6 Assault 2D6 psychic powers you're using. Add that all up and I'm really not impressed.
You're not Tau. Stop pretending you are. Get Summoning on turn one and don't stop until you have enough Daemons to actually control some of the table.
Nope I did not deny the movement hindrance that GSC could cause, however the long useless argument with shogun was the fact that he claim that GSC can deny swooping of FMCs on a consistent basis.
With that aside, yes GSC can deny direct movement of FMCs toward a certain direction(I never deny that in any of my posts), but it will required GSC to put a large of amount models in front of the FMC player instead playing the mobility/hiding game and many of them will have no cover besides the first turn shroud. Learn to read my posts, I mentioned many times that GSC 'feeding' large amount of units stacked up in order to prevent freedom of movement is no problem for Tz FMCs.
Theres no point arguing back and forth unless you want to do a test game. No one can provide any solid tournament and game data of who is truly better in a match since both Magnus and GSC are relatively new. All my posts are strictly my opinion and logic for a ANTI-GSC thread for players who want to beat GSC. So far you GSC fan boys has contributed very little aside from trying so hard to shut down tactics others share.
Ummm, bull crap. Thats you moving the post again. You argued ad nauseam at first that he couldn't fit enough bodies to prevent you from moving outside your deployment, then he proved you wrong with a picture, next you claimed the deployment was bogus and he made another photo to accommodate you, then you argued over terrain and he tried again to accommodate you at which point you no longer would accommodate his questions while he tried to accomodate you more and suggested he was relying on paper hammer (whatever the feth that is supposed to mean lol). Then you continually claimed he would not get enough 3-6 ambush results without even understanding his formation benefits make the odds of him failing the same as your army failing grimoire with fatey reroll lol all while arguing that it wasn't fair of them to claim you might fail that grimoire eventually during the game.
In fact rather then support your own claims or address Shogun or BBAP's questions you continually made them defend the possibility of their actions while making blanket claims that you would table them with your psychic phase lol. That, my friend, is why you have been accused of moving the goal post. Any time they defend their claims from your attack you would shift the discussion to attack another area and make them defend that rather then defending your own claims. All while assuming the game goes perfectly for your army but suggesting the GSC would go tits up. A really funny stance actually considering the size of the GSC makes them statistically more stable then the elite demon army.
Your last point is also revealing. Rather then taking the high road and admitting to your lack of experience against GSC you simply attack the poster with false claims. First you claimed Shogun was illegitimate as an authority against demons simply because he shared results of a prior loss, which is hilariously dubious. ALL great players lose and learn the most from losses. Your lack of grasping that point and the fact that you didn't share any results of your own actually make your position weaker then his. At no point has either BBAP or Shogun shut down discussion or suggested GSC was an auto win and in fact contributed greatly to the thread by suggesting summoning as a viable anti-GSC strategy by gaining board control and dominance with demonettes. I'd argue that you were the one shutting down the thread by making impossible to meet standards for them to vet their claims while repeatedly ignoring their questions to you.
Plot twist: All three of the posters in the Daemon vs GSC discussion are actually 4th generation Hybrids who are derailing the thread so no one has actual anti GSC tactics...
Sonsofvulkan is glad that I stopped with the pictures and we cant have that so here we go!
DEPLOYMENT
Patriarch units use normal infiltrate and deploys 18 inch from the daemons.
One metamorph unit 2 result for cult ambush but ouflanks at the left side.
One unit neophytes with magus gets a 1 result.
2 CAD acolyte units deploy behind defence line.
1 unit neophytes+magus gets a 6 result
1 unit 5 acolytes gets a '6' result
1 unit 10 metamorphs gets a 6 result
GENESTEALER CULT TURN 1:
2x 5 acolytes+ 5 metamorphs + 10 neophytes (magus detach) go back in the shadow
all units move closer.
Summon 20 neophytes in the hills to block of a flank for daemon second turn flying.
Only 5 acolytes attack the horrors so that the will kill enough models to force an instability test and avoid splitting. The get furious charge from the icon.
horrors die and unit consolidates.
DAEMON TURN 1"
All FMC are capable of flying 12+ inch when the cultist move back.
Magnus goes big on a nova power but only gets S2 and kill's a few, fateweaver also tries nova with the remaining dice but get's denied.
screamers slash 5 acolyte unit and with extra cultist pistols the die.
* With 2 less warp charge (horrors) the daemons got 16 warp charge + 2 (d6 result) And the GSC got 8 + 2 = 10 for Deny the witch.
As a GSC-player I could not care less about doombolt or flickering fire because I got a lot of shrouded + cover and a 6+ feel no pain(icon). I would only use all my deny-warp dice to block nova.
So, if magnus goes big on nova (8 dice) then I would let it go and take the hits but that also means I got 10 dice left to block the remaining psychic powers (4+ deny). So if Fateweaver manage to cast another nova because my deny the witch fail, then it could be devastating and I need to lick my wounds and return to the shadow with what I can. If magnus wants to use his warp charge battery (syphon?) Then he relies on psychic powers that need to be cast on a 4+(with reroll 1) like flickering fire and doombolt and stuff.
GENESTEALER CULT TURN 2
return from the shadows: neophytes+5 acolytes deploy midfield and 5 acolytes + 5 metamorphs ouflank at the left side and block the field more.
Metamorphs that got 3 casualties from nova go back in the shadow and replenish
Summon 10 acolytes with 4 rock saws but the got a 2 and just outflank in the backfield for FMC blocking. maybe the will be usefull later.
Everything moves closer and metamorphs + neophytes assaul cultist bubblewrap and remove them and consolidate. Also wanted my big acolyte squad in close combat but the fail the 4 inch assault range.
GSC stil get to close down flying space while moving forward.. Patriarchs move forward to make sure that fearless is all around.
DAEMONS TURN 2:
A this point the FMC got to choose:
No room to fly more then 12 inch and the can either fly of the table or fly down.
Fateweaver jumps back onto the VSG and Magnus+LOC go down in front of the GSC Grimoir on magnus (with reroll)
Herald cast cursed earth
Magnus summon flamers
Magnus cast nova and GSC fail to deny but Nova get's strenght 2 and low amount of hits.
The 10 acolytes + Patriarch do get a good amount of hits and try to take the first hits with my Patriarch because I was under the impression that the nova power got ap5. But the first two saves I made failed anyway so I 'look out sired' the rest of the wounds.
* I really got to watch out with the Patriarch because if he is in the front (for fearless) then I am forced to look out sir all nova hits, increasing the range of the nova power for that unit.
screamers slash attack acolytes near LOC flamers take down 4 metamorphs
Magnus attacks neophytes + magus
LOC charges acolytes (LOC got Greater reward->reroll inv saves BTW)
all units within fearless so close combat goes on.
GSC TURN 3
metamorphs come back from the shadows and deploy near magnus
I decide to remove a lot of backfield units back to the shadows because I already got 2 FMC in close combat and I don't care about Fateweaver. Metamorph unit that just got flamed replenish 5 models.
metamorphs and acolyte units with patriarchs move forward.
get to summon 10 metamorphs and the come in with a 6.
deploy them 3 inch away from the LOC and screamers because I want them to do a multi assault and try to force the LOC an instability check.
big acolyte unit charge Magnus
Patriarch with acolytes charge screamers
metamorphs charge remaining cultist
new summoned metamorphs multi charge screamers and LOC
Cultist with sorcerer dies and 2 screamers die. LOC and Magnus kill a few GSC models. Magnus tried to kill the magus but only kills the neophytes in the unit.
DAEMONS TURN 3
Fateweaver flies back between magnus and LOC.
Herald put the grimoire on the screamers out of fear that the screamers could die and force an instability check on the LOC. He needed Fateweavers reroll to do it.
Okay, remember that I wrote that I didn't care about Fateweaver? That was before he used all the warp charge to cast a S6 nova (got a perils wound). That really hurt an all units in close combat get a good beating. Patriarch is forced to look out sir towards a lot of models, killing my icon and Primus.
Remaining models stay in close combat and it helps that LOC misses almost every close combat attack.
flamers kill a few metamorphs
GSC TURN 4:
I realised I never checked if Fateweaver would fall out of the sky after the perils wound. I made the roll and he actually did. But I simply let it go because I forgot.
Damn, a lot of important units roll a 1 for cult ambush. that sucks.
5 genestealers roll a 5 and get a free run move towards the LOC. 5 acolytes roll a '6' and I deploy them near the screamers and LOC. 5 acolytes roll a '3' and I deploy them on the relic.
But with daemons losing another 2 warp from the sorcerer I manage to summon 8 genestealers that I put between magnus and the LOC. The magus on the backfield dies because of the (second) perils wound so no more summoning.
The 10 metamorphs I deployed last turn charge Magus and the remaining metamorphs near the flamers charge the screamers. 5 acolytes that got a '6' result multi charge the LOC and screamers.
The killed the screamers + herald and force 2 wounds on the LOC (instability check).
Magnus killed a few models but got 2 wounds in return.
DAEMON TURN 4:
Fateweaver flies down to try to do a nova that could free magnus and kill of a bunch of genestealers in the process.
Fateweaver uses all dice to get the Nova but gets S1. 5-metamorph unit gets 11 hits and dies because of it.
Flamers shoot at wounded patriarch and 2 acolytes and force 5 wounds killing of the unit.
LOC got some great close combat attacks and 3+2 acolytes run away from him. The do get within 12 of the other patriarch so the are fearless again.
GSC TURN 5:
I simply removed all units in my backfield into the shadows. Did not realise it was already turn 5 and got nothing on the Relic at this moment because I also removed the 5 acolytes from the relic.
I got 6 metamorphs + 2 acolytes that charge Magnus and 4 metamorphs + 5 genestealers that charge the LOC. The Patriarch joins the other genestealers and charge fateweaver, 4 acolytes charge the 2 remaining flamers and its a good thing that the flamers suck at overwatch. fateweaver and flamers die and I get to keep magnus and LOC in close combat.
From that point on the relic is "safe" and I claimed it turn 6 when my other units come back from the shadows.
Evaluation:
- I am aware that this game doesn't prove a thing. I totally forgot about warpflame (nova) but that could also have gotten me a +1 feel no pain making it a 5+ with the icon. Could have done a lot of things differently and a lot of daemon players probably would. Also forgot that FMC can do psychic shooting powers and can still 'run' 2x 6 forward.
But what I do think is that GSC can still keep Daemons occupied to make sure that the should/could lose the mission. Daemons cannot do everything. The amount of warp dice is limited and it relies on the nova outcome if you want to do real damage.
Apart from that, the GSC can block a lot of field to make sure the FMC can either not fly forward or fly towards a direction I don't really care about, As long as I can pick out 2 other FMC and lock/kill them in close combat. Summoning really helps and it is one of the dealbreakers if I decide to do the 'in your face' strategy, together with 'first turn' and the 'mission'.
Both armies got some random effects that could screw things up but I believe that Daemons cannot force an easy win without a big pile of luck.
Couple of things looking through that I would think a daemon player wouldn´t be doing. He wouldn´t throw too many dice at any one spell to get it off but throw enough to make you think about denying it. so 3-4 dice at the WC1 novas.
In a relic mission if you did what you did in turn 2 I would probably take 2 if not all 3 FMC off the table. next turn fly back on at the far end which looks rather sparse. This would give me a little more control over one side of the table. You would have to remove a lot of units off the table T3 to re-position and try to deny movement T4.
You don´t seem to be thinking about the mission from the daemons point of view.
How many units would you expect to put back into reserve each turn out of curiosity? considering you want to keep the fearless bubble on the table?
rawne2510 wrote: Couple of things looking through that I would think a daemon player wouldn´t be doing. He wouldn´t throw too many dice at any one spell to get it off but throw enough to make you think about denying it. so 3-4 dice at the WC1 novas.
Remember that GSC got 8+d6 to deny on a 4+. In this scenario the LOC didn't get nova but if magnus did indeed use 3/4 warp dice then depending on the result the GSC could also try to deny with 5/6 dice. It depends on the position of magnus and fateweaver and which nova power I rather face. I said before that it could be possible that daemons could pull of 2 nova's and depending on the Strength it could be devastating. But at the same time I know that if you really want something to happen with daemons you better go all the way with your warp dice because it could bite you in the ass if you try to have everything. Also in this scenario it was not possible for Fateweaver and magus to keep flying without ending their move next to one another. So two nova's that are so close could also lose effectiveness. Still hurt tho...
In a relic mission if you did what you did in turn 2 I would probably take 2 if not all 3 FMC off the table. next turn fly back on at the far end which looks rather sparse. This would give me a little more control over one side of the table. You would have to remove a lot of units off the table T3 to re-position and try to deny movement T4.
Ah no, remember that this is hammer and anvil and the FMC are not appearing on the long table edge but from the small table edge. With my 10 metamorphs coming out of the shadows I could totally block the 24 inch field and the would not be able to land. Simple movement and run move would be enough.
You don´t seem to be thinking about the mission from the daemons point of view.
If those FMC fly off the table then daemons lose a whole turn without a lot of psychic shooting damage and my GSC just keep moving in towards the screamers + sorcerer. I don't expect the Daemon player to do a lot of damage turn 4/5 and being capable of removing the GSC units from the relic.
rawne2510 wrote: How many units would you expect to put back into reserve each turn out of curiosity? considering you want to keep the fearless bubble on the table?
Really depends at the cult ambush results and the step by step outcome of every turn. Nova killing 4 genestealers and only leaving one alive? let's go back to the shadows and replenish.... Units arriving from the table edge or outflank at the wrong side, the would be the first to go back in the shadows, so it really depends on the outcome.
Everybody can nitpick about details and every game would be different because of all the random effects. I just want to show that Daemons still got to go to work in this scenario because it's not a clear win if GSC "feed 70% of their army". It's just about how the armies work towards each other.
Ps; Also I remembered that Magnus can turn models into spawns, but I don't really know how that works.
rawne2510 wrote: Couple of things looking through that I would think a daemon player wouldn´t be doing. He wouldn´t throw too many dice at any one spell to get it off but throw enough to make you think about denying it. so 3-4 dice at the WC1 novas.
Remember that GSC got 8+d6 to deny on a 4+. In this scenario the LOC didn't get nova but if magnus did indeed use 3/4 warp dice then depending on the result the GSC could also try to deny with 5/6 dice. It depends on the position of magnus and fateweaver and which nova power I rather face. I said before that it could be possible that daemons could pull of 2 nova's and depending on the Strength it could be devastating. But at the same time I know that if you really want something to happen with daemons you better go all the way with your warp dice because it could bite you in the ass if you try to have everything. Also in this scenario it was not possible for Fateweaver and magus to keep flying without ending their move next to one another. So two nova's that are so close could also lose effectiveness. Still hurt tho...
That is my point Magnus throwing 4 dice would get it off on 3. Making the GSC player make the desicion to stop the first one or wait to see if there is another spell to stop. The novas would be the most devistating in the first turn so I would expect the player to save dice to stop it but lets say 3 success so would you throw 6 to expect an average or throw more to get a better garuntee. you can basically stop 1 which is what I want you to try and do.
SonsofVulkan wrote: Nope I did not deny the movement hindrance that GSC could cause
You spent two pages telling shogun he couldn't rely on Cult Ambush to deploy his dudes where they needed to be. He showed you how reliable it was. I knew how reliable it was while you were saying this nonsense, because I've made the same mistake you're making - you're assuming that because CA isn't able to reliably deliver devastating first turn charges, it's unreliable all round. That's not the case. I have enough models to block your movement and can reliably place them to do so.
however the long useless argument with shogun was the fact that he claim that GSC can deny swooping of FMCs on a consistent basis.
If you deploy in certain ways they can indeed do that - and the GSC player will **always** know if you're going to deploy in such a fashion because his entire army can Infiltrate (except CAD dudes, who sit in reserve).
My point is that GSC can stop you dominating the middle like you said you would try to. You're not even denying that anymore - your argument has transposed from "I will dominate the middle" to "I can cede control of the Relic and still get it back with mighty Nipple Novas".
I call shenanigans on this too, for all the reasons given above.
With that aside, yes GSC can deny direct movement of FMCs toward a certain direction(I never deny that in any of my posts), but it will required GSC to put a large of amount models in front of the FMC player instead playing the mobility/hiding game and many of them will have no cover besides the first turn shroud.
Why would they play the mobility/ hiding game when they can grab the Relic turn one and hold you off of it forever? Don't get me wrong, I'm a lot less aggressive with my GSC than shogun is, but even I recognise the value in taking the initiative in situations like this. In this scenario playing the hiding game means your Screamer "star" gets hold of the Relic and you get to Summon stuff into midfield. That makes your life easier. It isn't my job to make your life easier - it's my job to make your life as difficult as possible. Deploying in your face helps accomplish that.
Risking a "large amount of models" in this way isn't a disadvantage to GSC. It's just what you have to do to make the army work. In fact "risking" isn't even the right word. Like I said on the previous page, these dudes are going to die. You are going to kill some guys with Nipple Novas.
I don't care that you killed some guys, though. I have lots of guys. You can kill some of them too if you like. Makes no nevermind to me.
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Learn to read my posts, I mentioned many times that GSC 'feeding' large amount of units stacked up in order to prevent freedom of movement is no problem for Tz FMCs.
Yeah, I got that from reading your posts. The problem is you're wrong about that for reasons we've discussed, which I'm disinclined to rehash a sixth time.
Theres no point arguing back and forth unless you want to do a test game. No one can provide any solid tournament and game data of who is truly better in a match since both Magnus and GSC are relatively new.
That's not the point of this thread, friend-o. The point is "anti-Genestealer tactics". You've proposed one - dominate midfield and shoot the GSC off the table - which has been roundly debunked. If you're Tau or a boltgun army it maybe works. You're not either of those things.
What you're now trying to do is turn it into an argument over who would win in a fight, because there's no hard evidence for either side in such a discussion. Unlike the discussion of your fail-tactic, which can be shown up by physical reality. I don't need to play a game against it to know how to counter it. That's how bad your tactic is.
All my posts are strictly my opinion and logic for a ANTI-GSC thread for players who want to beat GSC. So far you GSC fan boys has contributed very little aside from trying so hard to shut down tactics others share.
Oooh, salty! I'm sorry I'm not afraid of your lolossom Daemon Primarch of BDSM like you think I should be - it's just that he's not scary at all, and if you use him in the manner you're proposing I can shut him down easily enough.
Also if you read back over the thread you'll find a short discussion I had with a DA player who proposed some anti-Genestealer tactics which made sense. When they were going to work for him I told him so, and offered a few suggestions of my own on how I'd counter the stuff I could counter, so that way he's prepared when he comes up against it.
The only contributors being routinely opposed are the two Daemons players who think they can bully a win with their big toys. There are reasons for the opposition to such arguments.
rawne2510 wrote: Couple of things looking through that I would think a daemon player wouldn´t be doing. He wouldn´t throw too many dice at any one spell to get it off but throw enough to make you think about denying it. so 3-4 dice at the WC1 novas.
Remember that GSC got 8+d6 to deny on a 4+. In this scenario the LOC didn't get nova but if magnus did indeed use 3/4 warp dice then depending on the result the GSC could also try to deny with 5/6 dice. It depends on the position of magnus and fateweaver and which nova power I rather face. I said before that it could be possible that daemons could pull of 2 nova's and depending on the Strength it could be devastating. But at the same time I know that if you really want something to happen with daemons you better go all the way with your warp dice because it could bite you in the ass if you try to have everything. Also in this scenario it was not possible for Fateweaver and magus to keep flying without ending their move next to one another. So two nova's that are so close could also lose effectiveness. Still hurt tho...
That is my point Magnus throwing 4 dice would get it off on 3. Making the GSC player make the desicion to stop the first one or wait to see if there is another spell to stop. The novas would be the most devistating in the first turn so I would expect the player to save dice to stop it but lets say 3 success so would you throw 6 to expect an average or throw more to get a better garuntee. you can basically stop 1 which is what I want you to try and do.
Tru, but thats alway's the case. Your relying on an average when Magnus roll 4 warp dice but say it's a risk for the GSC player if he relies on an average to counter. Also never hear anything about the perils that could drop Fateweaver or the LOC out of the sky.
Daemons having great psychic power warp charge results and GSC failing to deny against the odds can still happen but that can also happen the other way around. Daemons can force the GSC player to make a difficult decision but the GSC player also can make that decision after the daemon activated their warp charge. I've also played deamons and every psychic phase I felt the limitation and randomness of the warp-charge outcome up to the point that I would use a whole lot of warp charge if I really need something to happen.
Everything about the nova power is random so I've seen them doing almost nothing or remove a whole bunch of models in one go.
Just look at all that gak. Holy Emprah. I mean, how is it even possible to care that 30 guys died when you have that much gak on the table plus a bunch more in Ongoing Reserve?
Rocksaw Acolytes and Genestealers seem like odd Summons choices against Daemons though. I would've thought 10 Whip-Morphs would be a better punt with all the I6/7 dudes mongling around, or maybe the Seismic Cannon Neophyte blob so you can take potshots at Kairos or something. Why'd you choose those units?
Magnus spawns a Spawn if he kills a model with a 6 to wound roll in close combat or using Baleful Devolution. Essentially you have to count on Spawns being spawned if you're fighting against Magnus - but since Spawns suck ass I don't think it's a big deal.
rawne2510 wrote: That is my point Magnus throwing 4 dice would get it off on 3. Making the GSC player make the desicion to stop the first one or wait to see if there is another spell to stop.
What other spell would there be, though? I get cover against more or less everything that isn't a Nova so I can let the rest of it slide - and considering your Warpflame is bumping up my FNP 50% of the time it might actually be a good idea to let some of the other shooting go off. Remember, I don't care that you kill guys unless you're killing significant quantities of them from turn 1 onwards. You're not doing that.
I also don't need to deny Summons - unless you're throwing a bunch of them, in which case I'd probably try to block at least one. I don't want big hordes appearing out of nowhere and charging into my combats. That's bad for me.
so I would expect the player to save dice to stop it but lets say 3 success so would you throw 6 to expect an average or throw more to get a better garuntee. you can basically stop 1 which is what I want you to try and do.
Your numbers are right, but I'm not sure they really strengthen the case here. You're only guaranteed two Novas. They're both as like as not to whiff, and now you're telling me one of them is all but guaranteed to be Denied every turn? I mean sure, you can roll all your dudes on Change if you like and maybe end up with five Novas - but you're still only killing dudes 9" away, I still get to decide where your Nova bods will land, etc etc.
Just look at all that gak. Holy Emprah. I mean, how is it even possible to care that 30 guys died when you have that much gak on the table plus a bunch more in Ongoing Reserve?
Rocksaw Acolytes and Genestealers seem like odd Summons choices against Daemons though. I would've thought 10 Whip-Morphs would be a better punt with all the I6/7 dudes mongling around, or maybe the Seismic Cannon Neophyte blob so you can take potshots at Kairos or something. Why'd you choose those units?
BTW, As you can also see in this picture there is only one little piece of space in the top left corner that could be reached if the FMC would fly from ongoing reserves onto the table. Only problem is that I can simply block that part after the fly of the table, even without those 10 metamorphs coming out of the shadows.
simple: thats the only units I got for summoning. At the second turn I wanted the 4 rock saw unit so that I could drop them near Magnus and start sawing into him. If I got more neophytes then I would go for them but thats not the case (yet..).
I admit I haven't really been following this thread too well and that Genecults are a pretty tough match up for Daemons.
However, in these pictures why are the Daemons so tightly packed together? Can't they space their units better to keep Genies Further from the corner, giving more fly room all around?
And remember FMC's can fly while deepstriking. So, there is probably a few more places they could end up out of reserves. (If they wanted to risk it).
You small units are there to bubble wrap for the FMC who start on the board.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Not getting Magnus in till turn 4 would be very very bad
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also the picture directly above was turn 2 folding in to let the FMC move out. Maybe a little excessive as the small units would also look to move out.
Goobi2 wrote: I admit I haven't really been following this thread too well and that Genecults are a pretty tough match up for Daemons.
However, in these pictures why are the Daemons so tightly packed together? Can't they space their units better to keep Genies Further from the corner, giving more fly room all around?
And remember FMC's can fly while deepstriking. So, there is probably a few more places they could end up out of reserves. (If they wanted to risk it).
Daemons still pack invulnerable saves But GSC can also field a lot of models but the are still Toughness 3 with a 5+ save.
The daemons are packed together because you don't want Genestealer cult assaulting the FMC first turn. To make sure that this does not happen the daemon player uses 3 bubblewraps to shield the FMC's. The daemon player also want to keep the cultist within the Void shield and the enemy units outside. If the GSC got a '5' result the can shoot with autopistols that got pinning. Cultist that are pinned cannot move to the back to make room for the FMC's.
BTW, I don't believe the FMC can deep strike after the fly of the table, and GSC formation gives an -1 reserves to the enemy. Deep strike out of reserves is not a good option, believe me..
shogun wrote: The daemons are packed together because you don't want Genestealer cult assaulting the FMC first turn. To make sure that this does not happen the daemon player uses 3 bubblewraps to shield the FMC's. The daemon player also want to keep the cultist within the Void shield and the enemy units outside. If the GSC got a '5' result the can shoot with autopistols that got pinning. Cultist that are pinned cannot move to the back to make room for the FMC's.
BTW, I don't believe the FMC can deep strike after the fly of the table, and GSC formation gives an -1 reserves to the enemy. Deep strike out of reserves is not a good option, believe me..
I mean if the Genies cant start within 3'' then Mr. Daemon could put 5.5'' or so between units creating a larger buffer zone. Sure the further they spread out, the thinner they spread. But that applies to the field of Genestealers, too. (and at a greater arc, a greater degree). It really depends what he is using for buffer daemons whether he could afford to spread them a pushed out Voidshield. Keeping them inside it is the likely issue with that cluster. But the FMC's would probably be fine pushed back to the corner, possibly outside the shield.
But you do raise a good point about possible issues bringing in the FMCs from Deepstrike reserve. I see where you were going with that now. Thanks!
shogun wrote: The daemons are packed together because you don't want Genestealer cult assaulting the FMC first turn. To make sure that this does not happen the daemon player uses 3 bubblewraps to shield the FMC's. The daemon player also want to keep the cultist within the Void shield and the enemy units outside. If the GSC got a '5' result the can shoot with autopistols that got pinning. Cultist that are pinned cannot move to the back to make room for the FMC's.
BTW, I don't believe the FMC can deep strike after the fly of the table, and GSC formation gives an -1 reserves to the enemy. Deep strike out of reserves is not a good option, believe me..
I mean if the Genies cant start within 3'' then Mr. Daemon could put 5.5'' or so between units creating a larger buffer zone. Sure the further they spread out, the thinner they spread. But that applies to the field of Genestealers, too. (and at a greater arc, a greater degree). It really depends what he is using for buffer daemons whether he could afford to spread them a pushed out Voidshield. Keeping them inside it is the likely issue with that cluster. But the FMC's would probably be fine pushed back to the corner, possibly outside the shield.
But you do raise a good point about possible issues bringing in the FMCs from Deepstrike reserve. I see where you were going with that now. Thanks!
But in this scenario the daemon army got 11 horrors and 2x 10 cultist. If you make the bubble bigger you cannot have 3 wrappings. If the daemon player got more wrappings that that could work. But don't forget that FMC cannot fly backwards. If the FMC can fly towards the GSC army (nova) but cannot move within the 180 degrees flying zone forward/side the are forced to fly away or fly down.
SonsofVulkan wrote: Nope I did not deny the movement hindrance that GSC could cause
You spent two pages telling shogun he couldn't rely on Cult Ambush to deploy his dudes where they needed to be. He showed you how reliable it was. I knew how reliable it was while you were saying this nonsense, because I've made the same mistake you're making - you're assuming that because CA isn't able to reliably deliver devastating first turn charges, it's unreliable all round. That's not the case. I have enough models to block your movement and can reliably place them to do so.
however the long useless argument with shogun was the fact that he claim that GSC can deny swooping of FMCs on a consistent basis.
If you deploy in certain ways they can indeed do that - and the GSC player will **always** know if you're going to deploy in such a fashion because his entire army can Infiltrate (except CAD dudes, who sit in reserve).
My point is that GSC can stop you dominating the middle like you said you would try to. You're not even denying that anymore - your argument has transposed from "I will dominate the middle" to "I can cede control of the Relic and still get it back with mighty Nipple Novas".
I call shenanigans on this too, for all the reasons given above.
With that aside, yes GSC can deny direct movement of FMCs toward a certain direction(I never deny that in any of my posts), but it will required GSC to put a large of amount models in front of the FMC player instead playing the mobility/hiding game and many of them will have no cover besides the first turn shroud.
Why would they play the mobility/ hiding game when they can grab the Relic turn one and hold you off of it forever? Don't get me wrong, I'm a lot less aggressive with my GSC than shogun is, but even I recognise the value in taking the initiative in situations like this. In this scenario playing the hiding game means your Screamer "star" gets hold of the Relic and you get to Summon stuff into midfield. That makes your life easier. It isn't my job to make your life easier - it's my job to make your life as difficult as possible. Deploying in your face helps accomplish that.
Risking a "large amount of models" in this way isn't a disadvantage to GSC. It's just what you have to do to make the army work. In fact "risking" isn't even the right word. Like I said on the previous page, these dudes are going to die. You are going to kill some guys with Nipple Novas.
I don't care that you killed some guys, though. I have lots of guys. You can kill some of them too if you like. Makes no nevermind to me.
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Learn to read my posts, I mentioned many times that GSC 'feeding' large amount of units stacked up in order to prevent freedom of movement is no problem for Tz FMCs.
Yeah, I got that from reading your posts. The problem is you're wrong about that for reasons we've discussed, which I'm disinclined to rehash a sixth time.
Theres no point arguing back and forth unless you want to do a test game. No one can provide any solid tournament and game data of who is truly better in a match since both Magnus and GSC are relatively new.
That's not the point of this thread, friend-o. The point is "anti-Genestealer tactics". You've proposed one - dominate midfield and shoot the GSC off the table - which has been roundly debunked. If you're Tau or a boltgun army it maybe works. You're not either of those things.
What you're now trying to do is turn it into an argument over who would win in a fight, because there's no hard evidence for either side in such a discussion. Unlike the discussion of your fail-tactic, which can be shown up by physical reality. I don't need to play a game against it to know how to counter it. That's how bad your tactic is.
All my posts are strictly my opinion and logic for a ANTI-GSC thread for players who want to beat GSC. So far you GSC fan boys has contributed very little aside from trying so hard to shut down tactics others share.
Oooh, salty! I'm sorry I'm not afraid of your lolossom Daemon Primarch of BDSM like you think I should be - it's just that he's not scary at all, and if you use him in the manner you're proposing I can shut him down easily enough.
Also if you read back over the thread you'll find a short discussion I had with a DA player who proposed some anti-Genestealer tactics which made sense. When they were going to work for him I told him so, and offered a few suggestions of my own on how I'd counter the stuff I could counter, so that way he's prepared when he comes up against it.
The only contributors being routinely opposed are the two Daemons players who think they can bully a win with their big toys. There are reasons for the opposition to such arguments.
Go back to all my posts and look them over, people like you and Red Corsair likes to twist other people's words.
Quick summary the exchanges (may not be in order):
1. I posted Magnus will eat GSC 2. Shogun took offense started posting pics of how GSC will surround deployment and deny swooping. I respond thats not how my daemon list will deploy and no GSC can not prevent Daemons from swooping on a consistent basis.
3. BBAP comes in and try to defend shogun. But can not prove that GSC can deny FMCs from swooping turn 1 on a consistent basis. I showed shogun how I would do things by collapsing the bubble by moving screening units backwards.
4. I said that GSC players either will play the hiding/maneuver game or risk sacrificing large amount of models in front of the Magnus player. If GSC decides to feed large amount of model stacked up, I will dedicate all dices into mind bullets to capitalize on the situation. And also preventing RttS of weakened units
5. BBAP and shogun argues/claims repeatedly that Daemons psychic phase is over rated so its not too risky for them to deploy large amount of units in the front in order to deny specific movement towards the relic.
6. BBAP keep using RttS as argument and doesn't read my posts completely about only targeting small or nearby units.
7. My statements about controlling the middle and summoning large amount of units to hold it is ONLY for the event that GSC players decides to play the hiding game.
So I NEVER claimed that GSC can't hinder movements for players that castled up. My whole argument was that GSC players will risk losing large amount of their army by doing so. THUS may not have much left by turn 4 and 5 to continue successfully contesting/controlling relic.
SonsofVulkan wrote: Go back to all my posts and look them over, people like you and Red Corsair likes to twist other people's words.
I've represented faithfully every argument you've made and responded to it in detail more than once. That's not "twisting" anything.
My whole argument was that GSC players will risk losing large amount of their army by doing so. THUS may not have much left by turn 4 and 5 to continue successfully contesting/controlling relic.
Right - and it's a bum argument for reasons I've laid out several times now. Here they are again for the sake of exhaustion.
You don't understand how GSC function as an army if you think "risking a large amount of models" is a thing that worries GSC players. Sixty models is less than half of my army. Your shooting on turn one is unlikely to kill even half of that. You keep insisting that the GSC player should play the hiding game because you think your shooting is scary. Your shooting isn't scary, and playing the hiding game allows you to control the midfield right away, which means the GSC player is chasing the game and is going to have a difficult time doing so. At this point I think you're deliberately trying to feed GSC players bad advice for some reason. Either that or you don't understand the army, and hence have no business telling people what it should do in the face of Nipple Magic.
You don't understand the rules for shooting if you think a 9" Nova will blow up a 30x18 inch brick of dudes in one turn. If you land at the side of a 15-inch brick and roll up a Strength 6 Assault 12 Nova, and all 12 hits wound, you'll kill 6 dudes max. The rest of the models are 10+ inches away from you. If you land up front you'll kill the first two units and the first rank of the second units, then nothing more. In either case it's a thirty model maximum from Novas on turn one, even if all five of your psykers get the Nova **and** they all land S4+ with plenty of hits. That's best-case. The less Novas you have, the more Denials will hurt you and the less models they'll kill.
"But but but muh beams and witchfires!" - I get cover against those, and FNP against some of them.
I can stop you controlling the centre like you wanted to originally. I can stop your shooting having the dramatic effect you think it will, both by positioning my models and by using my own dice to DTW. I have enough dudes on the table to hold you off for two turns until the rest of my Ambush arrives back from reserve, at which point I can eat your gakky ground units and then you have an even smaller footprint and are even less capable of denying RttS.
While I'm doing all this I have four CAD Acolyte 5-mans leaping onto flags all over the board and then RttSing freely, because your army is too small to fight my main body of troops **and** babysit the Maelstrom objectives. You don't seem to grasp how small your army's footprint actually is, and how quickly I can cut through all of your ground units bar your Screamers (assuming the Grimoire falls for you).
You need to Summon. Magnus is not enough to muscle out a win for you..
Automatically Appended Next Post:
shogun wrote: simple: thats the only units I got for summoning. At the second turn I wanted the 4 rock saw unit so that I could drop them near Magnus and start sawing into him. If I got more neophytes then I would go for them but thats not the case (yet..).
I thought so. The perennial problem of Summoning armies - having dudes on hand to Summon.
I look forward to hopefully getting some tournament winnings and keep building up my summoning. It'll be a mess keeping track of all the original army plus summoning but with practice it'll get faster and GSC players will start having instincts about what kind of unit will help the most. I'm thinking more bodies is going to be my counter to riptides. 10 neophytes getting into combat with a riptide is nearly as good as 10 acolytes or genestealers, the riptide is probably going to live either way it's just matter of it taking a long time to break out.
So for right now, I don't think players have to worry about summoning style GSC but that army is coming to a tournament near you!
rawne2510 wrote: It is still the point that you don´t need 3 wrappings. The horrors supported by the cultists will be enough
I would be careful with that.
If it would look like this:
Also don't forget that a big bubble like that would probably be in a piece of cover. If you got 2/3 layers of bubblewrap that got to move away to give room to the FMC the better got great results moving thru difficult terrain.
Then in the top right corner, you got a weak spot.
If there is no VSG then a unit could get a '5' result and get free shooting in the deployment phase and kill the cultist.
Then an other unit could get a '6' result and deploy 3 inch from the second bubble.
Its even possible that another unit get's a '5' result and shoots at the second bubblewrap so that the next '6' result even gets closer.
If GSC get first turn then the shooty unit could move forward and shoot again at the other cultist.
Then the assault squad got a way in.
If the units are within a VSG then the GSC could assault two units, probably killing them and consolidate forward.
It's not hard to remove horrors with 'daemonic instability'. You just need 10 acolytes or 5 acolytes that got furious charge (icon) and/or hatred (primus)
10 acolytes= 30 attacks = 20 hits = 14 wounds and about 8 kills.
About the whole GSC versus Magnus discussion: I think I have shown that the 'deploy in your face' strategy is all about forcing the FMC to fly down or off the table after the first turn. GSC could just move forward or spread out after the first big nova blasts that the FMC did and then the daemon player got to make that choice. After that it's all about the d6 strength the daemon player roll for his nova's. It can be devastating or it could do almost nothing. BBAP and I know that all other shooting psychic powers don't really hurt that much and that a complete toolbox of powers doesn't mean that much if your warp charge is limited and GSC can deny on a 4+/5+. There is only so much that you can do. It all relies on a few dice rolls and every game is different.
Lets say that the LOC also gets a nova. A daemon player uses 4 dice to cast nova with magnus and gets 3 warp charge so the GSC uses all his dice to block this and rolls so poor that the fail against all odds. Then Fateweaver and the LOC got a free pass to do their nova's cheap and if the nova's are S4 or higher it would be to much for the GSC. At the same time I have seen Daemons only succeed with one nova and it got strenght 1, meanwhile Fateweaver fell out of the sky onto the ground ready to be assaulted next turn. But even when GSC get two nova's in their face the can still afford to lose a big bunch of models and still play the mission with the rest of them. In both cases its still a good fight for both armies and I will leave it at that.
You are now changing goal posts by saying no VSG. My argument was with regards to the fact that there has always been a VSG in everything before hand since these photos have started to being used. (So cultists won´t be getting shot at as the extra shooting units are 6" away.)
8 killed so 16 blue horrors spawn and 2 die to instability. This is how it is played within ITC.
Yes FW can drop out of the sky . What can happen can happen. But you could roll 1 for all your ambush results and are screwed. That is what chance and probability is about with this game.
Novas - averages say Str 3-4 with 7 hits. ignoring armour and cover. so possibly 3 units removed. It is all about the averages.
So on turn 1 you are getting just shrouded if a character is in the unit. look to start shooting the units without characters as they don´t have shrouded and will get battered by the normal witchfires.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I´ve just realised. How do you deploy your characters. The only unit they can be deployed in is purestrains as they are the only units with infiltrate outside of your HQ choices which all have infiltrate except the iconward guy.
rawne2510 wrote: You are now changing goal posts by saying no VSG. My argument was with regards to the fact that there has always been a VSG in everything before hand since these photos have started to being used. (So cultists won´t be getting shot at as the extra shooting units are 6" away.)
How does a VSG actually work? Is it "friendly units" or "all units"? If it's "all units" then you have to bubblewrap the VSG as well as your FMCs, otherwise your dinky psychic shooting becomes even less formidable.
Yes FW can drop out of the sky . What can happen can happen. But you could roll 1 for all your ambush results and are screwed. That is what chance and probability is about with this game.
Indeed - but probability being what it is, FMCs dropping out of the sky is far, far more likely than a significant number of units rolling 1-2 on their Ambush. Especially if those FMC are casting multiple psychic powers every turn.
The deeper we dig into this psychic FMC thing the less worrisome it becomes.
I´ve just realised. How do you deploy your characters. The only unit they can be deployed in is purestrains as they are the only units with infiltrate outside of your HQ choices which all have infiltrate except the iconward guy.
All units in the Cult Insurrection decurion get Infiltrate - units that already have Infiltrate get Shrouded on the first turn.
As an aside - you haven't "realised" anything. You've made an assumption about an army you don't understand and tried to play it as a gotcha. Don't do that. If you're not sure, ask. People will explain things to you if you do that. If you kick up a stink about illegitimate HQ attachment without possession of all the facts you'll look like a wally.
ah yeah the detachment gives it to everyone. I looked at them in the wrong order and didn´t connect the dots.
I only have to bubble wrap to stop your shooting units getting within 12" of the building which means I only have to start 7" out from it as your guys won´t be able to shoot at all first turn.
vercingatorix wrote: I'm thinking more bodies is going to be my counter to riptides. 10 neophytes getting into combat with a riptide is nearly as good as 10 acolytes or genestealers, the riptide is probably going to live either way it's just matter of it taking a long time to break out.
You get 20 Neophytes on a WC3 Summon. Tarpitting can work, especially with Summoned units which bypass the EWOs. Mass Hypnosis on every psyker is a good idea too - they can bring a Culexus or SoS squad as Allies, but you can drag the Suits away from those things, and dropping even one Suit to BS2 or 1 can save a whole lot of dudes.
So for right now, I don't think players have to worry about summoning style GSC but that army is coming to a tournament near you!
I don't think Summon-spam GSC can really work. Daemons can pull it off because Summoning is the primaris for Malefic and they can bring tonnes of psychic dice, but ITC comp allows for a maximum of 6 GSC psykers with 12 psychic dice, whereas ETC allows for 8 and 16WC max, unless you're using a Psykana Division or Nids as batteries, which eats up points you could be spending on dudes. A bird in the hand and all that.
Telepathic Summons is a bonus power. It's an extremely useful and potent bonus power if you (a) land it and (b) can cast it, but it's a bonus. You can't rely on it.
rawne2510 wrote: You are now changing goal posts by saying no VSG. My argument was with regards to the fact that there has always been a VSG in everything before hand since these photos have started to being used. (So cultists won´t be getting shot at as the extra shooting units are 6" away.)
I'am referring to Goobi2 that is asking the question if it isn't possible to make the deployment bubble bigger and rawne2510 is writing that you don't need 3 wrappings. I am not moving the goal posts because I adres both situations with and without VSG. So I don't understand why you say this. Even so, it's not a problem that the FMC can fly but it can be the FMC problem the second turn if there is no room to fly again.
rawne2510 wrote: 8 killed so 16 blue horrors spawn and 2 die to instability. This is how it is played within ITC.
Ah I think that makes sense. I thought an instability removal would disallow the Daemon unit to split any horrors but I can see now that that would not be the case.
rawne2510 wrote: Yes FW can drop out of the sky . What can happen can happen. But you could roll 1 for all your ambush results and are screwed. That is what chance and probability is about with this game.
Novas - averages say Str 3-4 with 7 hits. ignoring armour and cover. so possibly 3 units removed. It is all about the averages.
And this is the problem with Daemon players and you're doing it again. At the same time you say that weird things can happen but you would not leave it at that, so in the same example you mention that Cult ambush can roll all ones for cult ambush (71 GSC models roll 3xd6 and 2xd6 for cult ambush so you're talking about 11 dice that got a '1' result) and that Daemons get an average '3 units kill'. And why do you think that GSC units that roll a 1 are screwed? They're not dead yet and can still go back into the shadows and play the mission. These battle report photo's are actually cult ambush roll's I made and it is very unlikely that my Subterranean uprising units roll 1,1. But like I said the can still do their thing after that. I would have to trow abysmal results not being capable of blocking the whole midfield. And when I show this strategy the daemon players go into denial because they're always used to fly all over the place being invulnerable and the don't like it when GSC push them around.
So please show me what you would do in this situation:
Daemons just fired S2 nova and only the LOC could fly to where magnus is standing but didn't get nova.
rawne2510 wrote: So on turn 1 you are getting just shrouded if a character is in the unit. look to start shooting the units without characters as they don´t have shrouded and will get battered by the normal witchfires.
Everybody that's in the Cult insurrection detachment get infiltrate and the units that already got infiltrate (subterranean uprising included) get shrouded first turn. characters (apart from icon) got infiltrate so the patriarch and magus from the detachment that join a unit of neophytes or acolytes get shrouded first turn. So a few small squads don't get shrouded first turn, but the CAD-acolytes cannot infiltrate anyway so the are forced to deploy and go into the shadows. When I roll warlord traits-strategic I could also get 3+warlord infiltrate so that could help.
rawne2510 wrote: Automatically Appended Next Post: I´ve just realised. How do you deploy your characters. The only unit they can be deployed in is purestrains as they are the only units with infiltrate outside of your HQ choices which all have infiltrate except the iconward guy.
Like I said, Detachment gives infiltrate and Genestealers can only be joined by a Patriarch but it's not the other way around.
rawne2510 wrote: I only have to bubble wrap to stop your shooting units getting within 12" of the building which means I only have to start 7" out from it as your guys won´t be able to shoot at all first turn.
Right. Thing is, though, if it's "any units" who get the Shield within 12" of the building then my dudes can have Void Shields too, so you need to keep them off the VSG as well as off your FMCs. Is it "any units", or just "friendly units"?
Ok so let me get the scenario right. This is my turn 1 and I have just moved the units to position and failed miserably on my first nova.
1. Flicker fire the unit with WC2 using 5 dice from lord of change - 3D6 shots
2. Use a non D beam from magnus
3. WC3 Flicker fire from magnus probably 5-6 dice depending what I have left
4. Slash attack the unit with the screamers (I would have placed the screamer in the movement phase to do this so that I would hopefully get back to some safety. screamer would have the grimore on them as they are my most vulnerable units for getting charged this turn.) The screamer would if properly grimoired try to deny as many units with casualties as possible from going back into reserve.
depending what is left from units and how much board space I have left I may look to charge unit 1 with horrors but I wouldn´t want them to be sacrificed if too many are left. I would still look to position my units with run moves in a way that all my FMC can land in the spaces without letting you ambush and charge from the inside.
Next turn will depend how the board looks after your turn. I might consider flying some of the FMC off the board looking to vector strike a weakened unit if possible.
I only have to bubble wrap to stop your shooting units getting within 12" of the building which means I only have to start 7" out from it as your guys won´t be able to shoot at all first turn.
Right. Thing is, though, if it's "any units" who get the Shield within 12" of the building then my dudes can have Void Shields too, so you need to keep them off the VSG as well as off your FMCs. Is it "any units", or just "friendly units"?
I don´t really understand what you are trying to get at.
Below is the paragraph for void shields with regards to their capability. Only shooting attacks from outside the void going into it are effected. If both people are inside the void shield then nothing happens and anyone outside of the void shield being shot at from inside isn´t effected by the shield.
Each projected void shield has a 12" area of effect (measured from any point on the Void Shield Generator building),
known as a Void Shield Zone. Any shooting attack that originates from outside a Void Shield Zone and hits a target
within the Void Shield Zone instead hits the projected void shield. If a unit is within 12"of more than one Void Shield
Generator, and so within more than one Void Shield Zone when it is hit, randomly determine which of the buildings’
projected void shields is hit.
rawne2510 wrote: Ok so let me get the scenario right. This is my turn 1 and I have just moved the units to position and failed miserably on my first nova.
No, this is the situation at the daemons second turn. I already removed the models that got the S2 nova attack and slash attack. I'am making the case that your FMC cannot fly forward without choosing next turn to go down or of the field. This photo was taken right after the GSC moved forward but before the metamorph assaulted the cultists.
rawne2510 wrote: I don´t really understand what you are trying to get at.
It's not specific to the scenario. It's a general enquiry about Void Shields; if my dudes get within 12" of your VSG do they also get Void Shields or is it specific to friendly models? I don't own the rules for VSGs and I've only ever seen them played once, so I don't know how they work.
rawne2510 wrote: I don´t really understand what you are trying to get at.
It's not specific to the scenario. It's a general enquiry about Void Shields; if my dudes get within 12" of your VSG do they also get Void Shields or is it specific to friendly models? I don't own the rules for VSGs and I've only ever seen them played once, so I don't know how they work.
Ah got you. Ok the void shield isn´t an area effect that covers anyone inside the 12" bubble. Think of it as a one way barrier.
If you are outside 12" shooting a unit inside you hit the barrier.
If you are inside shooting out you ignore it.
If you are both inside you ignore it.
Take into account the effect is determined as model by model.
rawne2510 wrote: Ok so let me get the scenario right. This is my turn 1 and I have just moved the units to position and failed miserably on my first nova.
No, this is the situation at the daemons second turn. I already removed the models that got the S2 nova attack and slash attack. I'am making the case that your FMC cannot fly forward without choosing next turn to go down or of the field. This photo was taken right after the GSC moved forward but before the metamorph assaulted the cultists.
Ok you are saying its turn 2 and i am in the Psychic phase at this point and all my models are flying. In that case the rules are exactly the same but 1 turn further on.
shogun wrote: I'am making the case that your FMC cannot fly forward without choosing next turn to go down or of the field. This photo was taken right after the GSC moved forward but before the metamorph assaulted the cultists.
rawne2510 wrote: Ok you are saying its turn 2 and i am in the Psychic phase..
No, it's the start of the Daemon second turn Movement phase..
Ok.. so this weekend I will be playing in a RTT with my White Scar Gladius plus Culexus. Army has lots of Grav Cannons 10/Rhinos and Razor backs/ Melta Attack bikes/1 troop in pod w/melta. Grav bike command squad w/hunters eye (chaplain)/ 3 scout units combi grav
2 GSC armies will be there. One of them won the last RTT.
So back to general GSC tips. I'm not sure that It's worth sacrificing units to prevent Cult Ambush. Most of the time when those units come back in they won't be doing much. Unless you have summoned units that you care less about.
I think you should try to pick the important part of the map and control it. Don't try to play to our strengths of super spread out MSU. Put all the objectives next to each other and control that area. Granted it might be tougher killing the GSC because now all our bubbles will overlap but I tend to think that's a better game then trying to force awkward positioning by constantly sacrificing units.
since we have so many free vehicals do GSC players fear them or get frustrated by them ? Are tank shocks effective ? Is it better to keep my dudes in them or get out and fire at full effect using Vehicals as speed bumps ? How do scout moves effect GSC and how to effectively use it ? Does hit and run create problems ? What ITC mission are more difficult for GSC to deal with ? What secondary missions are bad for GSC ? Should I be aggressive ?
What sort of things don't you want to see happen as a GSC player fighting a Gladius army ? both list wise and tactically ?
What sort of mistakes do you like to see a Gladius player make that I can avoid ?
Activate grimoire on screamers using fateweaver if required.
Fly LoC and FW off the board.
Move screamers forward to the edge of the terrain behind magnus.
horrors move forward to 11" from void shield to stop shooters. move cultists behind to fire a few shots into a small squad. spreading as much as possible to stop any ambushes behind my lines as a priority. magnus moving to within 1" of unit 1 on the ground backed up by the cultists.
Psychic phase. Casting order priority all casters within siphon range of magnus. (No of dice used - No of syphon dice) likely 11 + D6
magnus Syphon magic with 2 dice
herald casting cursed earth if I have it with 3 dice (5 - 1)
Summon 3 flamers with paradox herald into the area magnus has left. This will be an aggressive deep strike with a possibility of perils as I want to burn a unit or at least part of a unit if I can. (10 - 2)
magnus summon chariot with 3 dice (if cursed earth is off) (13 - 3)
magnus FF WC2 into 3 using 3 dice (if i din´t cast chariot) (13 - 3)
what ever dice I might have left I might start throwing at WC1 spells with magnus to take a few models from areas that I might be able to deny you with a screamer turbo boost if I don´t want to charge the units on the left.. maybe even a single nova here as I am now trying to dominate ground to counter your position.
Warp Storm table - too unknown to evaluate
Screamer movement either charging units on left or turbo boost a unit off the table if possible and finishing 1" ffrom unit 1 and stretching out to hold back some units from charging magnus.
This gives you options.
ambush rolls as you can. There should be no ability to ambush within 3 of magnus except behind unit 1.
Does unit 1 look to charge magnus or one of the units behind him.
What has the ability to reach magnus to try to hold him in combat.
rawne2510 wrote: I don´t really understand what you are trying to get at.
It's not specific to the scenario. It's a general enquiry about Void Shields; if my dudes get within 12" of your VSG do they also get Void Shields or is it specific to friendly models? I don't own the rules for VSGs and I've only ever seen them played once, so I don't know how they work.
Ah got you. Ok the void shield isn´t an area effect that covers anyone inside the 12" bubble. Think of it as a one way barrier.
If you are outside 12" shooting a unit inside you hit the barrier.
If you are inside shooting out you ignore it.
If you are both inside you ignore it.
Take into account the effect is determined as model by model.
Just a note here. The Void Shield requires the entire unit to be inside the shield, not a model by model basis.
vercingatorix wrote: So back to general GSC tips. I'm not sure that It's worth sacrificing units to prevent Cult Ambush. Most of the time when those units come back in they won't be doing much. Unless you have summoned units that you care less about.
I think you should try to pick the important part of the map and control it. Don't try to play to our strengths of super spread out MSU. Put all the objectives next to each other and control that area. Granted it might be tougher killing the GSC because now all our bubbles will overlap but I tend to think that's a better game then trying to force awkward positioning by constantly sacrificing units.
Surely trying to deny damaged GSC units from replenishing and finishing them off next turn is viable. leaving 1 model in a unit only to see it come back at full strength of 5 again is just wasteful.
rawne2510 wrote: I don´t really understand what you are trying to get at.
It's not specific to the scenario. It's a general enquiry about Void Shields; if my dudes get within 12" of your VSG do they also get Void Shields or is it specific to friendly models? I don't own the rules for VSGs and I've only ever seen them played once, so I don't know how they work.
Ah got you. Ok the void shield isn´t an area effect that covers anyone inside the 12" bubble. Think of it as a one way barrier.
If you are outside 12" shooting a unit inside you hit the barrier.
If you are inside shooting out you ignore it.
If you are both inside you ignore it.
Take into account the effect is determined as model by model.
Just a note here. The Void Shield requires the entire unit to be inside the shield, not a model by model basis.
Slight debate on what you are talking about there is that if 5 models are outside and 5 inside I start taking wounds off a unit unit I hit the barrier then all bolter wounds after the first 5 are wasted as you can´t damage the barrier even if you caused 7 wounds that I failed saves on.
I meant for shooting unit. If 3 marines are inside and 2 are outside then only 3 bolters would be able to do any damage.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
zedsdead wrote: since we have so many free vehicals do GSC players fear them or get frustrated by them ? Are tank shocks effective ? Is it better to keep my dudes in them or get out and fire at full effect using Vehicals as speed bumps ? How do scout moves effect GSC and how to effectively use it ? Does hit and run create problems ? What ITC mission are more difficult for GSC to deal with ? What secondary missions are bad for GSC ? Should I be aggressive ?
What sort of things don't you want to see happen as a GSC player fighting a Gladius army ? both list wise and tactically ?
What sort of mistakes do you like to see a Gladius player make that I can avoid ?
Grav against GSC isn´t effective.
Most GSC units have the ability to pop rhino/RB and some DP depending what they are give as gear.
Would expect H&R to be good if the marine unit survived their charge to get away and shoot them (does mean that 1 if you roll high on H&R you won´t get back in range to stop them going into reserve next turn).
Not actually sure about scout moves. I think GSC ambush happens before scout so very unlikely you would be able to scout move except to move away from them (there is a possibility to deny charges from them if they have 1st turn)
zedsdead wrote: since we have so many free vehicals do GSC players fear them or get frustrated by them ? Are tank shocks effective ? Is it better to keep my dudes in them or get out and fire at full effect using Vehicals as speed bumps ? How do scout moves effect GSC and how to effectively use it ? Does hit and run create problems ? What ITC mission are more difficult for GSC to deal with ? What secondary missions are bad for GSC ? Should I be aggressive ?
What sort of things don't you want to see happen as a GSC player fighting a Gladius army ? both list wise and tactically ?
What sort of mistakes do you like to see a Gladius player make that I can avoid ?
Look on topic note!
Let's see if I can answer this.
since we have so many free vehicals do GSC players fear them or get frustrated by them ?
-Well, it depends on how well you use them! I much prefer dealing with drop pods than razors and razors over rhinos.
Drop pods let me get at the guys inside the quicketst, razorbacks let me assault without overwatch, rhinos are the worst because I have to go through two rounds of overwatch.
The most frustrated I was wiith a rhino that refused to die and kept driving around preventing me from going back into reserves. I killed it eventually but it certainly caused more head aches than my opponent even realized he was causing!
-Are tank shocks effective?
Yes, though not for leadership since most of my army is fearless or ld 9 or 10. Still, things can happen. How I would use them is to group up GSC models so you can huck grenades at them. Grenades are actually kind of brutal on grouped acolytes.
-Is it better to keep my dudes in them or get out and fire at full effect using Vehicals as speed bumps?
This is tough, ideally you would hope out, rapid fire everything then turbo the tanks in the way to block a cult ambush roll or other attacks. However, I would say this is an edge case and normally staying in your vehicle is the best bet. Granted, by turn 2 I could have as many as 10 24 inch lascannons sitting in the middle of the map plinking away at you and by far the worst thing would be for you to lose your ride and can pinned. Chances are I won't be trying to kill you I'll just be shaking all your vehicles so that the tank and guys inside stop shooting me. So I don't have any advice for this, I would say get out when you're not likely to be retaliated against and stay inside otherwise.
Unless you're a lions blade in which do whatever the hell you want, I basically can't hurt you.
-How do scout moves effect GSC and how to effectively use it ?
Scout moving is fantastic against GSC IF you don't want to play them and feel like auto losing. For real though, if the GSC player deploys aggressively and you declare scout you can't scout within 12 inches of an enemy model. So chances are you can't actually deploy anywhere, including where you're currently deployed. So this would make you either count as destroyed or go back in reserves. I would not suggest taking the risk. I've never been enough of a jerk to force a TO to make that choice on an opponent who declared scout when he can't legally be deployed anywhere. I suppose you could do a weird beta strike by forcing me to deal with all your units going back in reserves? I don't really know. You could use it to get closer if I deploy for a beta strike but unless you brought thunderfires I'll probably deploy close up and bank on shrouding to keep me safe.
Does hit and run create problems ?
Yes, When I play my friends warp spiders and charge a 5 man squad with 5-10 acolytes every time he's gotten away with his exarch on 1-2 wounds and stopped me from killing a unit that turn. I've never played against white scars battle company but I imagine it's similar results. leave 1-2 marines alive who then run off and rapid fire the rest of the unit.
- What ITC mission are more difficult for GSC to deal with ?
Don't have enough experience but I don't think it will matter as we'll be getting new missions soon! Hopefully one's using nova Tertiary and secondaries. I think GSC will do better with NOVA style missions. It seems odd to say but I think GSC will actually do well with the kp tertiary because they can deny kill points on 1 or 2 turns pretty easily by going into reserves.
-Should I be aggressive ?
I don't think so. Secure a corner and push from there. I don't even know if I"d be aggressive with my drop pods. My blobs of neophytes just love popping up and rapid firing the marines and charging the pod to contest the objective until some rending guys get around to kill it.
The thing that hurts GSC is the counter attack. We come in wipe out what we hit pretty effectively and then lose our stuff to what's behind. If you don't have anything behind then you'll get tabled and wonder how GSC is even allowed. I had a unit of 20 acolytes with a primus that murdered with rends alone tiggy, coteaz, and three thunderfires. Then it proceeded to get picked apart by 3 rhinos just tank shocking it and throwing grenades out the hatch.
Tactical nightmare game: GSC army with subterranean whatever against a Ynnari Warhost will lots of Soulburst action
Neither player would know what was about to happen unit it happens.
zedsdead wrote: since we have so many free vehicals do GSC players fear them or get frustrated by them ?
Not "fear" exactly, but Rhino rush is a bit of a pain to deal with if you can't plonk vehicles from range.
Rhino rush armies force me to assault the tanks. That's not an issue because my dudes can all kill tanks in melee, and I have enough of a footprint to ensure Emergency Disebarkations. It does however mean I have two layers of things to cut through before I can RttS and replenish my casualties - and both layers can Overwatch at me with bolters (because the dudes in the Rhinos can fire Overwatch when I charge their tank), which is an issue - not a huge issue, but still an issue. It also leaves me sitting in the open for a turn after the tanks are smashed, which is exactly where I don't want to be with bolters everywhere.
On the whole I'd say Rhino rush Marines are one of the more difficult opponents I've faced with my GSC. My main experience against them comes from my buddy's White Scars grav-spam Rhino Rush army, which has Servo Skulls to keep me off his case in the early game and a Khan Biker Command Squad that's a mightmare to try and cut through thanks to FNP and T5.
Are tank shocks effective ?
Yes and no.
The "no" first. Patriarchs emit Fearless B.O 12" around them so it's not hard to avoid the morale problems they'd usually cause. You could Tank Shock any Maelstrom-grabbing Acolytes easily enough, but they end up Falling Back into Fearless bubbles and rarely end up off the board. Also, if your Tank Shock hits some Claw-Morphs (or Aberrants, though few people use them) you can end up taking a hit.
The "yes" comes if you have lots of Templates or Blasts. As a GSC player I don't want to get Tank Shocked into big clumps while there's a Thunderfire Cannon on the table. That would be very bad indeed.
Is it better to keep my dudes in them or get out and fire at full effect using Vehicals as speed bumps ?
GSC are unlikely to have the tools to kill tanks at range, so staying in keeps your dudes safe from assault by Ambushers - but the tanks will almost certainly die when they're charged (20-40 S4 Rending attacks against rear AV10) and GSC have both the board presence to force Emergency Disembarkations and the mobility to pull it off.
If you get out you can fire to full effect with your bolters, but it leaves them open to assault. This sounds bad at first - nobody wants to get hit with 40+ S4/5 Rending attacks - but Marines are pretty resistant to the usual gribblings GSC deliver.
How do scout moves effect GSC and how to effectively use it ?
They don't particularly. It's difficult to use Scout moves effectively against GSC because my dudes can all Infiltrate and deploy by Cult Ambush, so I can land within 3-9" of your models and henc eblock Scouting. The way my buddy gets his off is to use Servo Skulls to keep me away from his units, then just Scout into the Servo Skull bubble.
Another thing he tends to do with Scouts - as in actual Space Marine Scouts - is Outflank them. I sometimes leave a Magus with Neophytes sitting in my backfield to Summon stuff, and a Scout squad with bolters outflanking into them can tear them up a treat.
Does hit and run create problems ?
It can do. As a rule GSC want to be in close combat constantly, especially against bolter armies, so anything that can unlock squads so they can be shot at with bolters is bad news for me. Generally Marines unlock by losing combat, making their fall back roll, then regrouping next turn. If you add squads that can tank the Rending they'll get hit with **and** Hit and Run you could use those to whittle down HQ wound counter squads and blow up the ICs, which leaves me in a bad place because my ICs buff my army.
What ITC mission are more difficult for GSC to deal with ? What secondary missions are bad for GSC ?
Anything with Kill Points as a scoring mechanic. My army has a lot of units. Those units are easy to kill. KP are therefore a major pain for me to deal with, and I haven't really found a good way to win those missions. Constant RttS of everything that's even remotely damaged can help extend a squad's life beyond reasonable limits, but that's very difficult to achieve against Rhino Rush Marines because of the huge board footprint created by so many tanks with dudes inside. Not to mention all the gak falling from the sky and dudes Outflanking all over the place.
Should I be aggressive ?
GSC don't have a "backfield" to push into nor anchor units to target, so aggression isn't really the word. You need to keep your army active, because the more static you are the more table I get to control. Don't try to "beat" Cult Ambush - accept it's going to happen and make sure your units are supporting each other so when the hammer falls, you can mount a response.
What sort of things don't you want to see happen as a GSC player fighting a Gladius army ? both list wise and tactically ?
The more you spend on wargear, the less you spend on bolters, so I like to see lots of silly "close combat" squads with wargear out the wazoo that I can tie down and kill or control easily. What I don't want to see are lots of basic dudes with bolters. Basic Marines are a nightmare to contend with. Scouts with bolters likewise.
Tactically I want you to try and run your units as far from each other as possible. Basic Marines are tough to deal with en masse, but a squad or a Rhino at a time I can pick apart easily. If I can pull my buddy's army to the corners of the table and spread it out, I have a much easier time of things. If he sees it coming and stays solid, I struggle.
What sort of mistakes do you like to see a Gladius player make that I can avoid ?
Try and avoid close combat with the GSC if at all possible. It's not as deadly for Marines as it is for other armies, but it's where the GSC player wants to be at all times. Don't let him lock his squads up to escape your shooting. Force him to charge your tanks.
Slight debate on what you are talking about there is that if 5 models are outside and 5 inside I start taking wounds off a unit unit I hit the barrier then all bolter wounds after the first 5 are wasted as you can´t damage the barrier even if you caused 7 wounds that I failed saves on.
I meant for shooting unit. If 3 marines are inside and 2 are outside then only 3 bolters would be able to do any damage.
zedsdead wrote: vercingatorix/ BBAP.....That's what I call solid Tactical advice ! thanks...
Totally forgot about how devestating Grenades can be against grouped up units.
I also have a Gladius list that can run 1 or 2 Ironclads in it. How does GSC do againt Ironclads. Flamers and possibly hurricane bolters.
Glad to help! Also good to see we both said similar things.
I would not rely on Iron clads as a solid anti GSC army list counter. To reference BBAP, that's like 10 more bolter marines I don't have to deal with.
We have a unit called metamorphs which most GSC players take at least 1-2, possibly more, it can take strength 6 rending with very little work. They'll wreck your ironclads pretty easily.
Also, we have a very easy way to hand out furious charge with a bubble or +1 strength and rage with a psychic power.
Strength 5 rending is still plenty dangerous to ironclads.
It'll be annoying losing a few to overwatch or shooting but chances are your 100+ point model is bringing about 3-8, 8 point models with him.
SonsofVulkan wrote: Go back to all my posts and look them over, people like you and Red Corsair likes to twist other people's words.
I've represented faithfully every argument you've made and responded to it in detail more than once. That's not "twisting" anything.
My whole argument was that GSC players will risk losing large amount of their army by doing so. THUS may not have much left by turn 4 and 5 to continue successfully contesting/controlling relic.
Right - and it's a bum argument for reasons I've laid out several times now. Here they are again for the sake of exhaustion.
You don't understand how GSC function as an army if you think "risking a large amount of models" is a thing that worries GSC players. Sixty models is less than half of my army. Your shooting on turn one is unlikely to kill even half of that. You keep insisting that the GSC player should play the hiding game because you think your shooting is scary. Your shooting isn't scary, and playing the hiding game allows you to control the midfield right away, which means the GSC player is chasing the game and is going to have a difficult time doing so. At this point I think you're deliberately trying to feed GSC players bad advice for some reason. Either that or you don't understand the army, and hence have no business telling people what it should do in the face of Nipple Magic.
You don't understand the rules for shooting if you think a 9" Nova will blow up a 30x18 inch brick of dudes in one turn. If you land at the side of a 15-inch brick and roll up a Strength 6 Assault 12 Nova, and all 12 hits wound, you'll kill 6 dudes max. The rest of the models are 10+ inches away from you. If you land up front you'll kill the first two units and the first rank of the second units, then nothing more. In either case it's a thirty model maximum from Novas on turn one, even if all five of your psykers get the Nova **and** they all land S4+ with plenty of hits. That's best-case. The less Novas you have, the more Denials will hurt you and the less models they'll kill.
"But but but muh beams and witchfires!" - I get cover against those, and FNP against some of them.
I can stop you controlling the centre like you wanted to originally. I can stop your shooting having the dramatic effect you think it will, both by positioning my models and by using my own dice to DTW. I have enough dudes on the table to hold you off for two turns until the rest of my Ambush arrives back from reserve, at which point I can eat your gakky ground units and then you have an even smaller footprint and are even less capable of denying RttS.
While I'm doing all this I have four CAD Acolyte 5-mans leaping onto flags all over the board and then RttSing freely, because your army is too small to fight my main body of troops **and** babysit the Maelstrom objectives. You don't seem to grasp how small your army's footprint actually is, and how quickly I can cut through all of your ground units bar your Screamers (assuming the Grimoire falls for you).
You need to Summon. Magnus is not enough to muscle out a win for you..
Automatically Appended Next Post:
shogun wrote: simple: thats the only units I got for summoning. At the second turn I wanted the 4 rock saw unit so that I could drop them near Magnus and start sawing into him. If I got more neophytes then I would go for them but thats not the case (yet..).
I thought so. The perennial problem of Summoning armies - having dudes on hand to Summon.
You keep thinking that buddy, hopefully you will get a rude awakening when you face one of the GT winning Magnus army.
@shogun, ok I'm only going to look at the your newest and latest ambush deployment pic since you finally smarten up and didn't stack too many unit closer together than the previous 2 or 3 deployments.
So you assumed I didn't win the roll off... AND I failed to seize even with Omniscience Oracle re-roll. And you even roll 3 units with 6s for ambush. WOW everything is going good for you so far, let me guess you also night fight right? So I see 1 neophyte unit with magus and 2 other units roll 6s.
Now please kindly circle where is the magus and his unit rolling the 6, and the 2 patriarchs in this pic. I do see the iconward guy all the way in the back.
Now let me roll my psychic powers.
Fatey: Right head(cursed earth, flame breath, prescience), LH (summoning, shriek, iron arm)
LoC: Bolt of Tz, Tz firestorm, boon of flame
Herald: Sacrifice, Dark flame, incursion
Horrors( not gonna roll, they probably gonna die)
Sorcerer: Treason of Tz
Lol what GT winning Magnus army? Some local 3 round RTT? That's ignoring the fact your argument is invalid anyway. I mean crap fellas, he declared some god level list is at play, end the discussion.
His deployment is virtually the same as the others, I just checked, it's super easy since he color codes his bases, but nice try at a baseless accusation again. Oh and another goal post shift. Funny how every time he shuts you down you go back to some minuscule detail to gripe about.
Oh and also there you go again saying his rolling is above average, 3 6's is not that much considering his list is rolling 18 dice for cult ambush, it's actually bang on the average according to most elementary schools lol.
He even noted his list would not play you the same BTW without winning the roll off, that's literally one of the first things he addressed and you ignored. This is why you have been accused of moving the goal post. Your doing it again now, you lost the debate on the terms it was initiated, so now your moving the posts and crying foul. Btw, who is making assumptions now assuming yourself will win the roll off or that you will seize, even with a reroll you do realize the odds are against you seizing right? Glass houses and all, you know the saying.
Red Corsair wrote: Lol what GT winning Magnus army? Some local 3 round RTT? That's ignoring the fact your argument is invalid anyway. I mean crap fellas, he declared some god level list is at play, end the discussion.
His deployment is virtually the same as the others, I just checked, it's super easy since he color codes his bases, but nice try at a baseless accusation again. Oh and another goal post shift. Funny how every time he shuts you down you go back to some minuscule detail to gripe about.
Oh and also there you go again saying his rolling is above average, 3 6's is not that much considering his list is rolling 18 dice for cult ambush, it's actually bang on the average according to most elementary schools lol.
He even noted his list would not play you the same BTW without winning the roll off, that's literally one of the first things he addressed and you ignored. This is why you have been accused of moving the goal post. Your doing it again now, you lost the debate on the terms it was initiated, so now your moving the posts and crying foul. Btw, who is making assumptions now assuming yourself will win the roll off or that you will seize, even with a reroll you do realize the odds are against you seizing right? Glass houses and all, you know the saying.
Go look at the top 8 LVO lists and Nick Nanavati's list.
LOL again go back and look at my posts and stop trolling. So if I change tactics/courses of actions base on how he deploys and maneuvers, I'm changing goal posts? If he roll crap on the ambush table and he admits that he will use a complete different tactic which he hasn't specify its reliability so he is changing the goal post too now?
I don't assume I will get first turn or if I would seize with a re-roll. But so far 70% shogun and BBAP's argument (like most GSC players) is assuming they will get first turn, having summoning, night fight, and rolling decent on the ambush table. And at the same time they are banking on if Daemons rolls crap on the psychic phase, failing grim twice, periling and failing grounding checks and etc.
Now if someone else assumes, you go bash them? What if Daemons rolls above average? GSC fails to deny both Novas and Daemons roll average for both strength and # of hits? Daesmon throw 18-20 dices and deny GSC summoning? Bunch of GSC units fails warp flame test and also gets hit by Soulblaze? If GSC player rolls crap on the ambush table and decides to play the hiding game, what will they do to prevent a Daemon player from dominating the center and summoning crap loads of Daemonettes and chariots?
Like I say in the beginning, I DONT like to play the assumption game, but so far thats all it is in most their posts.
I see Magnus armies losing a bunch of games to dudes with more models. I'm not sure what to make of that.
Oh wait, I know exactly what to make of that.
I don't assume I will get first turn or if I would seize with a re-roll. But so far 70% shogun and BBAP's argument (like most GSC players) is assuming they will get first turn, having summoning, night fight, and rolling decent on the ambush table. And at the same time they are banking on if Daemons rolls crap on the psychic phase, failing grim twice, periling and failing grounding checks and etc.
Every single one of my posts has always assumed the absolute best case scenario for the Daemons player. You get first turn, deploy your FMC forward, I fail to Seize, your Novas roll S:6 Assault 12, etc etc. Your anti-Genestealer tactic sucks hard even with this heavy tailwind.
In a case where the GSC player is going first you'd deploy differently. I wouldn't. The net result would be exactly the same, except my line would be 6" further forward at the start of your turn 1 and your options for Swooping would be even more limited. I might even have some 6s that can charge you.
Please, for the love of all that is holy, read the things you're responding to instead of getting all triggered and salty because I'm not scared of your special snowflake Daemon primarch.
What if Daemons rolls above average? GSC fails to deny both Novas and Daemons roll average for both strength and # of hits?
In that scenario you're still too far away to wipe squads with the Nova, and can't hit more than maybe 3-4 units at a time. That's the point of the brick. You're killing max 30 dudes with your Novas assuming you roll five of them and they all come up Milhouse.
Then you open up with whatever else and I get cover against it. Yawn.
Daesmon throw 18-20 dices and deny GSC summoning?
This has been explained to you repeatedly. Summoning is a bonus for GSC.
Bunch of GSC units fails warp flame test and also gets hit by Soulblaze?
"Bunch" = 3-4. That happens, those units die, and you get to pretend you've completed a mighty feat by killing some T3 5+ guys, which you seem to think is an impressive accomplishment. Your army is still not in midfield on turn one and will be slightly farther forward when the Ambushers come back on turn two. That's not a game-winning position.
If GSC player rolls crap on the ambush table and decides to play the hiding game, what will they do to prevent a Daemon player from dominating the center and summoning crap loads of Daemonettes and chariots?
If all my Ambushes come up 1-2 I'd deploy a few units in corners to RttS, deploy 90-odd facing into midfield, then walk up on you and plant my dudes in a big circle so you couldn't summon anything near them. I can still keep you from Novaing anything I don't want you to Nova and I can still have a lot of bodies in midfield quickly, because a 1 result allows me to enter from any point on the board edge.
If the GSC player decides to play the hiding game he will have a very difficult time in this scenario. It's senseless to do that because your army isn't doing enough damage every turn to make hiding worthwhile.
Like I say in the beginning, I DONT like to play the assumption game, but so far thats all it is in most their posts.
You're assuming you know how GSC work when every reply you post is further evidence that you have no idea what you're talking about. You've done that since your first reply to this thread.
I see Magnus armies losing a bunch of games to dudes with more models. I'm not sure what to make of that.
Oh wait, I know exactly what to make of that.
I don't assume I will get first turn or if I would seize with a re-roll. But so far 70% shogun and BBAP's argument (like most GSC players) is assuming they will get first turn, having summoning, night fight, and rolling decent on the ambush table. And at the same time they are banking on if Daemons rolls crap on the psychic phase, failing grim twice, periling and failing grounding checks and etc.
Every single one of my posts has always assumed the absolute best case scenario for the Daemons player. You get first turn, deploy your FMC forward, I fail to Seize, your Novas roll S:6 Assault 12, etc etc. Your anti-Genestealer tactic sucks hard even with this heavy tailwind.
In a case where the GSC player is going first you'd deploy differently. I wouldn't. The net result would be exactly the same, except my line would be 6" further forward at the start of your turn 1 and your options for Swooping would be even more limited. I might even have some 6s that can charge you.
Please, for the love of all that is holy, read the things you're responding to instead of getting all triggered and salty because I'm not scared of your special snowflake Daemon primarch.
What if Daemons rolls above average? GSC fails to deny both Novas and Daemons roll average for both strength and # of hits?
In that scenario you're still too far away to wipe squads with the Nova, and can't hit more than maybe 3-4 units at a time. That's the point of the brick. You're killing max 30 dudes with your Novas assuming you roll five of them and they all come up Milhouse.
Then you open up with whatever else and I get cover against it. Yawn.
Daesmon throw 18-20 dices and deny GSC summoning?
This has been explained to you repeatedly. Summoning is a bonus for GSC.
Bunch of GSC units fails warp flame test and also gets hit by Soulblaze?
"Bunch" = 3-4. That happens, those units die, and you get to pretend you've completed a mighty feat by killing some T3 5+ guys, which you seem to think is an impressive accomplishment. Your army is still not in midfield on turn one and will be slightly farther forward when the Ambushers come back on turn two. That's not a game-winning position.
If GSC player rolls crap on the ambush table and decides to play the hiding game, what will they do to prevent a Daemon player from dominating the center and summoning crap loads of Daemonettes and chariots?
If all my Ambushes come up 1-2 I'd deploy a few units in corners to RttS, deploy 90-odd facing into midfield, then walk up on you and plant my dudes in a big circle so you couldn't summon anything near them. I can still keep you from Novaing anything I don't want you to Nova and I can still have a lot of bodies in midfield quickly, because a 1 result allows me to enter from any point on the board edge.
If the GSC player decides to play the hiding game he will have a very difficult time in this scenario. It's senseless to do that because your army isn't doing enough damage every turn to make hiding worthwhile.
Like I say in the beginning, I DONT like to play the assumption game, but so far thats all it is in most their posts.
You're assuming you know how GSC work when every reply you post is further evidence that you have no idea what you're talking about. You've done that since your first reply to this thread.
Ok maybe its shogun who is assuming more than you. But regardless going back to your posts, its basically a back and worth argument saying daemons can't hurt GSC enough for GSC to care. You claim I don't understand GSC, sure whatever you say buddy.
Anyways I'm just going use shogun's latest pic to estimate the 9" nova bubble, could be slightly bigger or smaller.
Seems to me like it'll hit more than 3-4 small units? Base on AVERAGE rolls, do you realize how devastating that kind of coverage will do to all those GSC models? You going to assume that GSC will stop both NOVAs now? Or that I might roll crap for the S of the Nova or the # of its?
So you gonna say that you play differently than shogun and that your list is different (better) than his?
Go look at the top 8 LVO lists and Nick Nanavati's list.
Couple of things here.
1. Two of the top 8 had Magnus and exactly zero won the thing. Remember when you said GT winning Magnus list? But that's another attempt at a goal post move.
2. Even had one of those players taken it, you do realize how flawed the LVO is right? The average top game didn't make it past turn 4 that I am aware of. That makes for fundamentally flawed data, in fact it is mostly useless. Imagine if every game in the 2017 NBA playoff barely made it to half time? Not knocking the players here, but the major distinction needs to be made between knowing how to beat a list in a full random game length format and knowing how to run the clock against certain builds and beating the format.
3. I hear this tired invalid stance far too often. I hear that great players repeatedly make the top because they are so great and not because of the list. Then people parrot about how those same players are playing lists that are unbeatable. You can't have it both ways, and for the record Sean Nayden blows your theory out the door since he plays "bad" units and made it to the finals for the 3rd straight year.
So maybe make your own argument and stop posting from fake authority using other players names and results.
Go look at the top 8 LVO lists and Nick Nanavati's list.
Couple of things here.
1. Two of the top 8 had Magnus and exactly zero won the thing. Remember when you said GT winning Magnus list? But that's another attempt at a goal post move.
2. Even had one of those players taken it, you do realize how flawed the LVO is right? The average top game didn't make it past turn 4 that I am aware of. That makes for fundamentally flawed data, in fact it is mostly useless. Imagine if every game in the 2017 NBA playoff barely made it to half time? Not knocking the players here, but the major distinction needs to be made between knowing how to beat a list in a full random game length format and knowing how to run the clock against certain builds and beating the format.
3. I hear this tired invalid stance far too often. I hear that great players repeatedly make the top because they are so great and not because of the list. Then people parrot about how those same players are playing lists that are unbeatable. You can't have it both ways, and for the record Sean Nayden blows your theory out the door since he plays "bad" units and made it to the finals for the 3rd straight year.
So maybe make your own argument and stop posting from fake authority using other players names and results.
Oh I'm sorry red troll, if you want to be technical about then yes only nick is confirmed to win a GT. Top 8 in one of the biggest GT in the world is not comparable to winning a regional 50-60 person GT right?
Obviously you missed my point, those 3 Magnus players are most likely better players than all of us here, I don't expect BBAP to play those people since they live in another continent. Me and BBAP will not agree with each other's claims, so I recommend him to find someone in his area that runs similar caliber Magnus list who is also a decent player.
I already played a GSC list(insurrection + Nid CAD for 2 flyrants), and it was a easy win. Mission was big gun never tire, I had first turn and deployed everything towards the middle near most of the objectives, no bubble wrap, He rolled only one 6 on ambush and failed to seize. Whole game I just kept summoning chariots and using nova and templates to flame his units off of objectives. His 20 man first curse did lock my screamer star for the whole game. By turn 5, I was up on maelstrom and wiped out 80% of his GSC units and he don't have nothing obsec to win primary.
I would love to play a GSC only msu army, since BBAP claim that I will struggle. I'm still waiting for shogun to come back and answer my question on his picture deployment.
Regardless THIS thread is a anti-GSC thread, so don't try to use your unfounded goal moving accusation on me when you contributed nothing.
Slight debate on what you are talking about there is that if 5 models are outside and 5 inside I start taking wounds off a unit unit I hit the barrier then all bolter wounds after the first 5 are wasted as you can´t damage the barrier even if you caused 7 wounds that I failed saves on.
For some reason my first post didnt come out right. But this line is incorrect. The entire unit must be within the VSG range or none of the models get the effect.
Q: The coverage range of the Void Shield Generators’ void
shields is 12". If a unit is not entirely within the 12" range,
does it still benefit from the Projected Void Shield special rule?
A: No.
SonsofVulkan wrote: Ok maybe its shogun who is assuming more than you. But regardless going back to your posts, its basically a back and worth argument saying daemons can't hurt GSC enough for GSC to care. You claim I don't understand GSC, sure whatever you say buddy.
You're banging on about "risking a large number of models" as though that's somehow disadvantageous. That's life for GSC. The dudes are all T3 5+, they're at risk every second they're on the table. It's why they cost 5-11pts per head. There is no way to prevent them dying. You have to make sure they die properly.
Anyways I'm just going use shogun's latest pic to estimate the 9" nova bubble, could be slightly bigger or smaller.
We're talking about deployment, and what happens to my brick in midfield on the first game turn if you go first. Shogun's photo is of a game in progress. If you want to talk about shogun's photos, talk to shogun about them.
Also the thing we're discussing can be calculated. There's no need for estimation. Here goes.
Spoiler:
Let's assume you have Novas on all five of your psykers and you roll Strength 6 Assault 12 for all of them, and that all of them go off. Let's also assume I roll no 6s and have to rely on results 3-5 to build the brick, and my Purestrains aren't in there so it's all T3 5+ dudes. I can't Seize for whatever reason, so you position your psykers at the edge of your DZ - that allows for optimal positioning around the brick to hit as many models as possible. You also get a 1 for your Warp Charge - that means you only get 18 dice, but I only have 13. Every psyker gets a single WC to make their Nova and manages it - I forget to Deny and they all go off.
For a psyker sitting at the side of the brick: 1"+1"+2"+1"+2"+1"+2" = 10". The first 1" is your separation from my first model, then 1" for the model's base, then 2" gap to the next model, etc etc. If you're at the side of the brick your Nova hits six models in the squad you're next to, plus five each in the squads to the front and back. With one FMC on each side of the brick that's 16 models twice, so 32 models total.
From the front: 1"+1"+2"=4". That's your separation from the first model, the size of its base, and its separation from the next rank. From the centre line of a 5x2 ranked squad you can hit all 10 models in the first unit, two models in the adjacent unit in the front row, and four models in the front rank of the second row. That's 16 models in total. Three psykers in front of the brick means 3*16 = 48 models.
Altogether you can Nova 80 models on turn one... right?
No.
You start with 80 hits in range. The first Nova takes out 16 models. The second takes out 16 models. Regardless of which psykers go first, by the third Nova you end up with 8 models in range, then another 8 models in range of the fourth. The fifth is all but useless, although if you position it right (i.e. at the centre of the brick's front row) you can land a single hit on a squad in b2b with the Relic.
That's a maximum of 39 models dead out of 70. Two squads are wiped, two are down to a final guy, and five need to take Warpflame tests. We'll say they fail and all of them get 3 extra wounds. That means four squads wiped, two down to 2 dudes, plus the Relic squad down to 6 plus a Patriarch.
In total you've killed 54 models out of 70. Hooray for Nipple-Novas, right? Right, but remember that this is the absolute **best case scenario** for you - and you've achieved nothing but killing some guys. I don't care that you killed some guys. I have a lot of guys. You've achieved nothing. You're not in control of midfield. You're not in control of the Relic. You can Boost forward with the Screamer "star" to deny RttS to units I wasn't going to remove anyway, but I still have a Patriarch in b2b with the Relic so you can't sit on it. Maybe you witchfire at the Patriarch and his squad after you've Nova'd - I'd get cover in that case. Maybe you Summon stuff. Whatever.
This is the best case scenario. You're rolling not just above average, but impossibly so. Every dice is coming up 6 - and I'm still in control of the middle. Now extrapolate from this to a more average case, where you have less than five Novas, I'm rolling DTW and you're having to compensate, your dudes aren't optimally positioned to hit max models because you have to bubblewrap them in case I Seizeetc etc. You're killing maybe 30 dudes in your first turn, and not only do I have my dudes on the Relic, I still have the best part of my brick intact so I can reform my lines.
You're also going first here. In a case where I'm going first I can push my army forward into yours, cut down your Swooping lanes, potentially get charges into your units, and still have a handful of Ambushers to come in next turn and cause trouble.
Seems to me like it'll hit more than 3-4 small units? Base on AVERAGE rolls, do you realize how devastating that kind of coverage will do to all those GSC models?
I realise it will kill a lot of guys. Do you remember what I've said like eight times now? You will kill some guys. I don't care that you killed some guys. I have lots of guys. "Devastating" is relative. Losing 30-40 models is "devastating" for Marines. For GSC it's just how things go.
You going to assume that GSC will stop both NOVAs now? Or that I might roll crap for the S of the Nova or the # of its?
I haven't assumed anything of the sort so far - why would you think I'd start now? I give your dudes the best case scenario and your arguments are still ass.
Nobody cares about your "seems". The numbers tell the story.
So you gonna say that you play differently than shogun and that your list is different (better) than his?
Not at all - quite the opposite, in fact. His army is better set up than mine to take Nova hits, and I'm in the middle of retooling my list as a result of this discussion. I do play differently than he does, but why that's relevant I don't know. I mentioned it in passing a couple of replies back to illustrate a point - namely that deploying aggressively to keep you out of the middle is a reasonable way to approach this specific scenario.
Go look at the top 8 LVO lists and Nick Nanavati's list.
Couple of things here.
1. Two of the top 8 had Magnus and exactly zero won the thing. Remember when you said GT winning Magnus list? But that's another attempt at a goal post move.
2. Even had one of those players taken it, you do realize how flawed the LVO is right? The average top game didn't make it past turn 4 that I am aware of. That makes for fundamentally flawed data, in fact it is mostly useless. Imagine if every game in the 2017 NBA playoff barely made it to half time? Not knocking the players here, but the major distinction needs to be made between knowing how to beat a list in a full random game length format and knowing how to run the clock against certain builds and beating the format.
3. I hear this tired invalid stance far too often. I hear that great players repeatedly make the top because they are so great and not because of the list. Then people parrot about how those same players are playing lists that are unbeatable. You can't have it both ways, and for the record Sean Nayden blows your theory out the door since he plays "bad" units and made it to the finals for the 3rd straight year.
So maybe make your own argument and stop posting from fake authority using other players names and results.
Oh I'm sorry red troll, if you want to be technical about then yes only nick is confirmed to win a GT. Top 8 in one of the biggest GT in the world is not comparable to winning a regional 50-60 person GT right?
Obviously you missed my point, those 3 Magnus players are most likely better players than all of us here, I don't expect BBAP to play those people since they live in another continent. Me and BBAP will not agree with each other's claims, so I recommend him to find someone in his area that runs similar caliber Magnus list who is also a decent player.
I already played a GSC list(insurrection + Nid CAD for 2 flyrants), and it was a easy win. Mission was the scouring, I had first turn and deployed everything towards the middle near most of the objectives, no bubble wrap, He rolled only one 6 on ambush and failed to seize. Whole game I just kept summoning chariots and using nova and templates to flame his units off of objectives. His 20 man first curse did lock my screamer star for the whole game. By turn 5, I was up on maelstrom and wiped out 80% of his GSC units and he don't have nothing obsec to win primary.
I would love to play a GSC only msu army, since BBAP claim that I will struggle. I'm still waiting for shogun to come back and answer my question on his picture deployment.
Regardless THIS thread is a anti-GSC thread, so don't try to use your unfounded goal moving accusation on me when you contributed nothing.
The magnus lists in the top 8 the better one was run by curtis and he knows the ins and outs of if but just got bad luck. i actually helped Nick make his list and am apart of the U.S. ETC team. having a lot of practice vs magnus against etc level opponents i can say it is a hard match up but not impossible. its usually a draw if i dont have summoning and if i get summoning i win. all comes down to the skill level of players but against most opponents a magnus list will beat a gsc most of the time. depending on army list structure and the event format. ETC is a lot different from ITC.
Ah, the classic tantrum! So now you decide to break forum rules and call me a troll for simply pointing out the flaw in your argument. Real mature. I'll accept your concession just the same. The Golden sprue that Nick won BTW was only 36 players, did not run ITC missions, and to my knowledge had ZERO GSC in attendance. So while it's a stellar outcome for Nanavati, it hardly bares much weight in this discussion.
I didn't miss your point either btw, I got it just fine, you were struggling with no leg to stand on so you decided to make an argument from authority that you don't have. If you like looking at tournament results that's fine but show me the match between Magnus and a fully fledged GSC from a competitive event. If you can't then stop deflecting and address the actual points Shogun and BBAP have presented.
Red Corsair wrote: Ah, the classic tantrum! So now you decide to break forum rules and call me a troll for simply pointing out the flaw in your argument. Real mature. I'll accept your concession just the same. The Golden sprue that Nick won BTW was only 36 players, did not run ITC missions, and to my knowledge had ZERO GSC in attendance. So while it's a stellar outcome for Nanavati, it hardly bares much weight in this discussion.
I didn't miss your point either btw, I got it just fine, you were struggling with no leg to stand on so you decided to make an argument from authority that you don't have. If you like looking at tournament results that's fine but show me the match between Magnus and a fully fledged GSC from a competitive event. If you can't then stop deflecting and address the actual points Shogun and BBAP have presented.
Aww are you triggered? I have been presenting arguements to BBAP and shogun this whole time. Go ahead keep throwing useless accusations at me
SonsofVulkan wrote: Ok maybe its shogun who is assuming more than you. But regardless going back to your posts, its basically a back and worth argument saying daemons can't hurt GSC enough for GSC to care. You claim I don't understand GSC, sure whatever you say buddy.
You're banging on about "risking a large number of models" as though that's somehow disadvantageous. That's life for GSC. The dudes are all T3 5+, they're at risk every second they're on the table. It's why they cost 5-11pts per head. There is no way to prevent them dying. You have to make sure they die properly.
Anyways I'm just going use shogun's latest pic to estimate the 9" nova bubble, could be slightly bigger or smaller.
We're talking about deployment, and what happens to my brick in midfield on the first game turn if you go first. Shogun's photo is of a game in progress. If you want to talk about shogun's photos, talk to shogun about them.
Also the thing we're discussing can be calculated. There's no need for estimation. Here goes.
Spoiler:
Let's assume you have Novas on all five of your psykers and you roll Strength 6 Assault 12 for all of them, and that all of them go off. Let's also assume I roll no 6s and have to rely on results 3-5 to build the brick, and my Purestrains aren't in there so it's all T3 5+ dudes. I can't Seize for whatever reason, so you position your psykers at the edge of your DZ - that allows for optimal positioning around the brick to hit as many models as possible. You also get a 1 for your Warp Charge - that means you only get 18 dice, but I only have 13. Every psyker gets a single WC to make their Nova and manages it - I forget to Deny and they all go off.
For a psyker sitting at the side of the brick: 1"+1"+2"+1"+2"+1"+2" = 10". The first 1" is your separation from my first model, then 1" for the model's base, then 2" gap to the next model, etc etc. If you're at the side of the brick your Nova hits six models in the squad you're next to, plus five each in the squads to the front and back. With one FMC on each side of the brick that's 16 models twice, so 32 models total.
From the front: 1"+1"+2"=4". That's your separation from the first model, the size of its base, and its separation from the next rank. From the centre line of a 5x2 ranked squad you can hit all 10 models in the first unit, two models in the adjacent unit in the front row, and four models in the front rank of the second row. That's 16 models in total. Three psykers in front of the brick means 3*16 = 48 models.
Altogether you can Nova 80 models on turn one... right?
No.
You start with 80 hits in range. The first Nova takes out 16 models. The second takes out 16 models. Regardless of which psykers go first, by the third Nova you end up with 8 models in range, then another 8 models in range of the fourth. The fifth is all but useless, although if you position it right (i.e. at the centre of the brick's front row) you can land a single hit on a squad in b2b with the Relic.
That's a maximum of 39 models dead out of 70. Two squads are wiped, two are down to a final guy, and five need to take Warpflame tests. We'll say they fail and all of them get 3 extra wounds. That means four squads wiped, two down to 2 dudes, plus the Relic squad down to 6 plus a Patriarch.
In total you've killed 54 models out of 70. Hooray for Nipple-Novas, right? Right, but remember that this is the absolute **best case scenario** for you - and you've achieved nothing but killing some guys. I don't care that you killed some guys. I have a lot of guys. You've achieved nothing. You're not in control of midfield. You're not in control of the Relic. You can Boost forward with the Screamer "star" to deny RttS to units I wasn't going to remove anyway, but I still have a Patriarch in b2b with the Relic so you can't sit on it. Maybe you witchfire at the Patriarch and his squad after you've Nova'd - I'd get cover in that case. Maybe you Summon stuff. Whatever.
This is the best case scenario. You're rolling not just above average, but impossibly so. Every dice is coming up 6 - and I'm still in control of the middle. Now extrapolate from this to a more average case, where you have less than five Novas, I'm rolling DTW and you're having to compensate, your dudes aren't optimally positioned to hit max models because you have to bubblewrap them in case I Seizeetc etc. You're killing maybe 30 dudes in your first turn, and not only do I have my dudes on the Relic, I still have the best part of my brick intact so I can reform my lines.
You're also going first here. In a case where I'm going first I can push my army forward into yours, cut down your Swooping lanes, potentially get charges into your units, and still have a handful of Ambushers to come in next turn and cause trouble.
Seems to me like it'll hit more than 3-4 small units? Base on AVERAGE rolls, do you realize how devastating that kind of coverage will do to all those GSC models?
I realise it will kill a lot of guys. Do you remember what I've said like eight times now? You will kill some guys. I don't care that you killed some guys. I have lots of guys. "Devastating" is relative. Losing 30-40 models is "devastating" for Marines. For GSC it's just how things go.
You going to assume that GSC will stop both NOVAs now? Or that I might roll crap for the S of the Nova or the # of its?
I haven't assumed anything of the sort so far - why would you think I'd start now? I give your dudes the best case scenario and your arguments are still ass.
Nobody cares about your "seems". The numbers tell the story.
So you gonna say that you play differently than shogun and that your list is different (better) than his?
Not at all - quite the opposite, in fact. His army is better set up than mine to take Nova hits, and I'm in the middle of retooling my list as a result of this discussion. I do play differently than he does, but why that's relevant I don't know. I mentioned it in passing a couple of replies back to illustrate a point - namely that deploying aggressively to keep you out of the middle is a reasonable way to approach this specific scenario.
I believe he stated that pic was taken for Daemons turn 1(bottom of turn 1). This whole time you try to defend shogun, saying how effective his ambush deployments are. His previous ones are even more closely stacked up, so now you think he might be in trouble? And you realize he's in bad shape with only 1 magus unit out in front in a 10 man unit in which I think half are in the open. I can also show you how I deal with 5+ and 3+ shrouded cover saves when shogun shows up and answer my questions.
Sorry I can't seem to picture your brick box in relation to my deployment and the location of the relic. How you roll on ambush table for the Locations of your patriarchs and magus? # of models and units not in area terrain? I believe you wrote earlier your army has 4 or 6 patriarchs, so How many magus? Why don't you post your list after all this back and forth arguement.
Oh and I'm glad your re-tooling your list because of this thread but I hope your not tailoring too much.
Ok maybe its shogun who is assuming more than you. But regardless going back to your posts, its basically a back and worth argument saying daemons can't hurt GSC enough for GSC to care. You claim I don't understand GSC, sure whatever you say buddy.
Anyways I'm just going use shogun's latest pic to estimate the 9" nova bubble, could be slightly bigger or smaller.
Seems to me like it'll hit more than 3-4 small units? Base on AVERAGE rolls, do you realize how devastating that kind of coverage will do to all those GSC models? You going to assume that GSC will stop both NOVAs now? Or that I might roll crap for the S of the Nova or the # of its?
So you gonna say that you play differently than shogun and that your list is different (better) than his?
Okay, first things first. Would both daemon player please realise that the are using a picture thats basically the start of daemons second turn. I already removed the models that got hit with s2 beam and slash attack. This is about the situation that the FMC are in the air and got to make a choice; go down or leave the field.
@sonsofvulkan: please realise that the cult ambush doesn't always allow for a perfect 2 inch apart setup. It does for most parts (3-6 result) but the bunch of models that are standing close together in the picture consist of an extra 10 metamorphs that trow 2,2 (see it can happen) result and outflanked close/between the other unit. I could have put them in the back but I took the risk of getting more units close to the daemons for pressure. If that nova still hits hard then the models outside 9 inch could still possibly go back in the shadow and replenish.
I will posts a few different first and second turn situations with different missions, If you don't like it that GSC is having first turn in the last battle report.
@BBAP: I also played the 'guerrilla' style setup but thats still a tough fight. GSC is actually keep running away and trying to reappear turn 5 to snatch the relic. Daemon FMC could fly 13 inch, summon seekers that get a 6+d6 run and a whole bunch of GSC units cannot go back in the shadow anymore.
I do believe that in this case the 'deploy in their face' strategy is better for keeping the daemons in their corner bubble forcing them to shoot instead of summoning and forcing the FMC to choose between flying or landing. If the daemons start summoning tzeentch flamers and daemonettes in the first and second turn it gets harder and harder.
Activate grimoire on screamers using fateweaver if required.
Fly LoC and FW off the board.
Move screamers forward to the edge of the terrain behind magnus.
horrors move forward to 11" from void shield to stop shooters. move cultists behind to fire a few shots into a small squad. spreading as much as possible to stop any ambushes behind my lines as a priority. magnus moving to within 1" of unit 1 on the ground backed up by the cultists.
Psychic phase. Casting order priority all casters within siphon range of magnus. (No of dice used - No of syphon dice) likely 11 + D6
magnus Syphon magic with 2 dice
herald casting cursed earth if I have it with 3 dice (5 - 1)
Summon 3 flamers with paradox herald into the area magnus has left. This will be an aggressive deep strike with a possibility of perils as I want to burn a unit or at least part of a unit if I can. (10 - 2)
magnus summon chariot with 3 dice (if cursed earth is off) (13 - 3)
magnus FF WC2 into 3 using 3 dice (if i din´t cast chariot) (13 - 3)
what ever dice I might have left I might start throwing at WC1 spells with magnus to take a few models from areas that I might be able to deny you with a screamer turbo boost if I don´t want to charge the units on the left.. maybe even a single nova here as I am now trying to dominate ground to counter your position.
Warp Storm table - too unknown to evaluate
Screamer shooting phase either charging units on left or turbo boost a unit off the table if possible and finishing 1" ffrom unit 1 and stretching out to hold back some units from charging magnus.
This gives you options.
ambush rolls as you can. There should be no ability to ambush within 3 of magnus except behind unit 1.
Does unit 1 look to charge magnus or one of the units behind him.
What has the ability to reach magnus to try to hold him in combat.
SonsofVulkan wrote: I believe he stated that pic was taken for Daemons turn 1(bottom of turn 1).
Daemons turn two with GSC going first, so there's been three player turns (one and a half game turns). Game in progress, like I said.
This whole time you try to defend shogun, saying how effective his ambush deployments are. His previous ones are even more closely stacked up, so now you think he might be in trouble?
Not particularly. You won't roll well enough to kill 60-odd models, which is my point and always has been. I can rely on you not doing that to the same extent I can rely on getting enough units forward to form a brick. Even if you do roll well enough, it's 60-odd models. There's at least 100 on the table there, and the GSC went first which means there are dudes in Ongoing Reserve.
And you realize he's in bad shape with only 1 magus unit out in front in a 10 man unit in which I think half are in the open. I can also show you how I deal with 5+ and 3+ shrouded cover saves
Show, don't tell. You can assume the dice are at least good enough to produce maximum effect. You can't assume freedom of movement because you don't have that.
Sorry I can't seem to picture your brick box in relation to my deployment and the location of the relic.
It's in the middle of the table, centred just behind the Relic, front edge 6" from your DZ's perimeter. If you can't picture a 30x18" oblong in the middle of the table then I don't know what to tell you. You like Vassal - go into Vassal and deploy one up.
If I can get to my other laptop at some point I'll do it for you. Wouldn't want you to break a nail from the effort or anything.
How you roll on ambush table for the Locations of your patriarchs and magus?
Everything beyond the back of the brick can Infiltrate normally, so 1 of my 4/5 Patriarchs needs to land in the brick to get the DTW on 4+. The Magus can just Infiltrate normally behind it.
# of models and units not in area terrain?
Nova ignores terrain and kills everything but the last few models of the back squads if you roll well enough to do so. That requires at least S:4 Assault 6 for the dudes at the side, then all your to wound dice making their 3+, plus S:4+ Assault 10 on the dudes at the front. That's more likely than all sixes all the time, but still at the high narrow of the bell curve - so maybe once every 100 years instead of once every 10,000. It's therefore reasonable to assume there are intervening models between you and everyone else.
Let's say 0 models in area terrain. Explain why you're asking me this.
I believe you wrote earlier your army has 4 or 6 patriarchs, so How many magus? Why don't you post your list after all this back and forth arguement.
One Magus - but remember, this isn't shooting. A single model within 12" of my Magus means the whole squad gets AW. I can Infiltrate 18" away from the edge of your DZ and be within 12" of most of my brick. Assuming the little dude to the left of the AT in that picture is the Magus, he's covering pretty much the whole front line.
EDIT: Also any psychic power hitting that squad is Denied on a 4+. "Trouble" indeed.
Oh and I'm glad your re-tooling your list because of this thread but I hope your not tailoring too much.
List-tailoring is impossible with Genestealer Cults. You have one tool, your only choice is how big the working edge will be.
Not that I'd need to tailor if I'm facing Magnus, because he's not a super-impressive model. We've discussed at length how he's not, and the LVO results seem to bear that out. If you can't rip open a War Convocation with psychic powers then I'm not paying $130 for you.
herald casting cursed earth if I have it with 3 dice (5 - 1)
Summon 3 flamers with paradox herald into the area magnus has left. This will be an aggressive deep strike with a possibility of perils as I want to burn a unit or at least part of a unit if I can. (10 - 2)
magnus summon chariot with 3 dice (if cursed earth is off) (13 - 3)
magnus FF WC2 into 3 using 3 dice (if i din´t cast chariot) (13 - 3)
what ever dice I might have left I might start throwing at WC1 spells with magnus to take a few models from areas that I might be able to deny you with a screamer turbo boost if I don´t want to charge the units on the left.. maybe even a single nova here as I am now trying to dominate ground to counter your position.
Used sum dice for this:
grimoire-> succes with the first dice.
warp charge result: 2 -> so that's Magnus (5) + herald (2) + sorcerer (I believe Sonsofvulkan sorcerer got Lvl1 and I don't know about paradox, count the points) + Blue horrors (+2) because I killed the pink horrors. = 12 warp charge
syphon 2 dice: 1,2 so thats a pass. And GSC let it go.
herald cursed earth: 2,5,6 so thats a pass And GSC let it go.
herald summoning paradox: pass and GSC let it go.
Magnus chariot 4 dice left: pass with 4 and GSC tries to counter but fails.
Even if you had more dice then the last power would have been stopped by the GSC deny the witch. I would have been saving them for the nova power.
It's not a bad move but I do think that only 3 flamer + slash attack is a bit weak for a daemon turn. At the next GSC turn its also very likely for me to add a summoning unit because you're missing 7 warp charge at that moment. I still would be going for your units on the ground but being in close combat also means I got to reduce my anti-flyzone and that would open up possibilities for your LOC and fateweaver. GSC that could lock in Magus and screamers + go for the horrors/sorcerer so that the LOC and Fateweaver got a better flyzone, could be worth it. It's still going to depend on the Nova strenght from that point on.
shogun wrote: @BBAP: I also played the 'guerrilla' style setup but thats still a tough fight. GSC is actually keep running away and trying to reappear turn 5 to snatch the relic. Daemon FMC could fly 13 inch, summon seekers that get a 6+d6 run and a whole bunch of GSC units cannot go back in the shadow anymore.
I do believe that in this case the 'deploy in their face' strategy is better for keeping the daemons in their corner bubble forcing them to shoot instead of summoning and forcing the FMC to choose between flying or landing. If the daemons start summoning tzeentch flamers and daemonettes in the first and second turn it gets harder and harder.
Yeah, I figured this would be the case, and I'm also thinking it's a hard counter to the way I want to deploy here (i.e. back a little to control the Relic rather than right on top of the Daemons) especially if they go first.
If I'm dropping a tonne of dudes directly into the middle to block the Relic, the psykers can fly/ bike to one side, cast Cursed Earth, then drop Daemonettes and Flamers and Chariots on a flank with impunity. Maybe the psychic shooting goes off, maybe it doesn't - either way I'm going to get hit by 20+ Daemonettes, plus Chariots and Flamers, plus another round of psychic shooting on Daemons' turn two. Best case scenario my centre is largely undamaged but is pinned down while the FMCs are Summoning more Daemons in on top of me. Worst case scenario my centre gets rubbed out completely on turn two, and I've not left any dudes in a corner. In either case my Ambushers now have jobs they need to do - the Chariots and Flamers have got to go, so the 6s need to run into them and can't join the melee.
That's assuming no Seekers either.
There's just so much more pressure on me once the Summons start dropping. Focus on shooting, you kill some dudes. Focus on Summoning, you start controlling the table and force my hand with regards to what my Ambushers are doing. I'm not sure how that would bear up in a non-Relic mission, but I wouldn't be deploying centrally in a non-Relic mission. I'd guess you'd be Summoning the same units, plus maybe Flesh Hounds to snaffle any CAD Acolytes that make cheeky Ambushes onto Maelstrom flags.
So me getting that FF off and you blowing your dice has given me 1 dice to throw at the nova.
With cursed earth off those flamers get placed 1" away from you and don´t scatter. That is a lot of damage in the shooting phase and 3D3 over watch killing you with no saves.
BBAP wrote: There's just so much more pressure on me once the Summons start dropping. Focus on shooting, you kill some dudes. Focus on Summoning, you start controlling the table and force my hand with regards to what my Ambushers are doing. I'm not sure how that would bear up in a non-Relic mission, but I wouldn't be deploying centrally in a non-Relic mission. I'd guess you'd be Summoning the same units, plus maybe Flesh Hounds to snaffle any CAD Acolytes that make cheeky Ambushes onto Maelstrom flags.
It's really all about the mission. Thats why I like the 'in your face' tactics against daemons because at almost every scenario I got great board control for 3 turns. But you have got to pick the right moment to pull back and focus on the end game. I'am also more and more leaning towards biomancy after I got summoning. I would like to give a big unit 4+ feel no pain and add +1 with the icon.
rawne2510 wrote:Remember the Nova is only 1 WC.
So me getting that FF off and you blowing your dice has given me 1 dice to throw at the nova.
With cursed earth off those flamers get placed 1" away from you and don´t scatter. That is a lot of damage in the shooting phase and 3D3 over watch killing you with no saves.
That's why I wrote 'the last' psychic power/dice.
Even so the flamers can only place two templates most of the times because their still in deep strike formation and most times the can only hit around 4 models. So thats 8 models wounding on 3+ and the get a possible 6+ feel no pain so thats about 4 dead + 1 warp flame (average) kill. That overwatch flaming can be nasty I agree.
there is only 3 so they will be in a line giving them 7" range. If I could only get 4 each then I will admit lovely placement of models. That would require more time at which point I guess it depends on friendly play or tournament at that point.
This is the big downside to GSC against daemons that could possibly have summoning as we would be destroying the clock on both sides.
Ok maybe its shogun who is assuming more than you. But regardless going back to your posts, its basically a back and worth argument saying daemons can't hurt GSC enough for GSC to care. You claim I don't understand GSC, sure whatever you say buddy.
Anyways I'm just going use shogun's latest pic to estimate the 9" nova bubble, could be slightly bigger or smaller.
Seems to me like it'll hit more than 3-4 small units? Base on AVERAGE rolls, do you realize how devastating that kind of coverage will do to all those GSC models? You going to assume that GSC will stop both NOVAs now? Or that I might roll crap for the S of the Nova or the # of its?
So you gonna say that you play differently than shogun and that your list is different (better) than his?
Okay, first things first. Would both daemon player please realise that the are using a picture thats basically the start of daemons second turn. I already removed the models that got hit with s2 beam and slash attack. This is about the situation that the FMC are in the air and got to make a choice; go down or leave the field.
@sonsofvulkan: please realise that the cult ambush doesn't always allow for a perfect 2 inch apart setup. It does for most parts (3-6 result) but the bunch of models that are standing close together in the picture consist of an extra 10 metamorphs that trow 2,2 (see it can happen) result and outflanked close/between the other unit. I could have put them in the back but I took the risk of getting more units close to the daemons for pressure. If that nova still hits hard then the models outside 9 inch could still possibly go back in the shadow and replenish.
I will posts a few different first and second turn situations with different missions, If you don't like it that GSC is having first turn in the last battle report.
@BBAP: I also played the 'guerrilla' style setup but thats still a tough fight. GSC is actually keep running away and trying to reappear turn 5 to snatch the relic. Daemon FMC could fly 13 inch, summon seekers that get a 6+d6 run and a whole bunch of GSC units cannot go back in the shadow anymore.
I do believe that in this case the 'deploy in their face' strategy is better for keeping the daemons in their corner bubble forcing them to shoot instead of summoning and forcing the FMC to choose between flying or landing. If the daemons start summoning tzeentch flamers and daemonettes in the first and second turn it gets harder and harder.
Oh wow thats why I find it pointless to keep playing out scenarios with you, why don't you consult the person your arguing with first?
Since you decided not to post the pic, this is what I would do during Daemons turn 1, the magus unit is still out in front. I swoop fatey and Magnus up forward near or to the side of the magus unit.
LoC and Screamer star also moves up next to the models not in cover.
So you say I roll a 2 right, so thats 18 WC(i assumed blue horrors are gone) for me and 10 for you?
These are the powers I rolled thats going into magus unit.
Magnus cast siphon magic on 1. Goes off on 1
LoC level 1 flicker fire on 2 dice. Goes off on 1
Herald cast Dark flame torrent on 2 dice. Goes off on 1
Fatey cast flame breath on 2 dice. Goes off on 1
Magnus level 3 flicker fire on 4 dice. Goes off on 4
You tell me if you want to deny and how many dice you wanna throw. If you choose to deny 0, Magnus will be up to 4 free WC plus 7 remaining for Fatey/Magnus to use for the Nova powers. Oh btw I rolled a 3 for Magnus and 5 for Fatey in terms of the S of the novas
I don't care what you say, that magus unit is going down, some of those acolytes has 3+ cover safe at best and those spread out in the open has only 5+ shroud. If he dies to all those other powers prior to me casting any novas, whats the chance of you denying both novas? Or if he use dices to deny some of those other powers, will you have enough left to deny any nova effectively?
Turn 2, you have no more shroud and no adman... OUCH
rawne2510 wrote: there is only 3 so they will be in a line giving them 7" range. If I could only get 4 each then I will admit lovely placement of models. That would require more time at which point I guess it depends on friendly play or tournament at that point.
This is the big downside to GSC against daemons that could possibly have summoning as we would be destroying the clock on both sides.
I believe that is an illegal deepstrike. You must place all models after the first in concentric circles touching the firsts base. But even so remember that in 7th you can only kill what is in range, this is the same reason burna boyz got nerfed, you can rack up as many hits as you want but if 4 guys are in range under the templates, your only killing those 4.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @SoV seriously dude I think you should take a break. Your not being fair to anyone at this point including yourself and your still throwing out barbs and attitude.
Oh and BTW, I do not get "triggered," that's such a hilarious concept to me, your never going to get me mad using your words, you might surprise me with your ignorance though.
Cortez works anytime a unit gets in range and unlimited
Servo skulls on a xenos inq prevents the alpha strike not just for gsc but a lot of armies for almost no points.
Greyfax also has a no infiltrating 24in range but not useful vs gsc.
Then there is a new ecclissary relic if you use castellan detachment or have Celestine which has a no deep strike bubble, auto mishap bubble even if you scatter and 4++ to the character but again not terrible useful for gsc.
Any combination of above is usually a circle of death for any deepstrike, infiltrating army. However specifically for gsc I would use Cortez and servo skulls or Cortez in a castellan detachment w the ecclisaary anti deepstrike relic for a TaC list.
gungo wrote: Cortez works anytime a unit gets in range and unlimited
Servo skulls on a xenos inq prevents the alpha strike not just for gsc but a lot of armies for almost no points.
Greyfax also has a no infiltrating 24in range but not useful vs gsc.
Then there is a new ecclissary relic if you use castellan detachment or have Celestine which has a no deep strike bubble, auto mishap bubble even if you scatter and 4++ to the character but again not terrible useful for gsc.
Any combination of above is usually a circle of death for any deepstrike, infiltrating army. However specifically for gsc I would use Cortez and servo skulls or Cortez in a castellan detachment w the ecclisaary anti deepstrike relic for a TaC list.
That's really the best strategy at the moment. I am not sure which armies would benefit from coteaz but the servo skulls are the best solution. That said, I am not sure what concessions would need to be made in the above demon lists since it is tight as feth on points. The GSC strategy would have to change though and would be looking to RttS and/or coming in from reserve and targeting the ground units while still grabbing up as much board control in the middle as possible.
And he's a bit hard to get into a Tzeentch Daemons army.
While there was a sidetrack on tzetch the op was guard and tau. I don't play tzetch.
Also greyfax isn't total loss on gsc, if they roll a 5 they can infiltrate and tags messed up any psyker unit.
I\d take the skull caddy personally since it gets you a chance at leaving your deployment zone and is cheaper. It also works with the most armies. Coteaz isn't super great in none BB faction armies.
How does Coteaz interact with Cult Ambush? Because if that works, hot DAMN is that a good counter (especially for those 6's on the CA table).
Coteaz would not work against the initial deployment which is why you would also need a skull caddy inquisitor. His IBEY rule would trigger off the cult ambush units arriving from reserve though.
Oh wow thats why I find it pointless to keep playing out scenarios with you, why don't you consult the person your arguing with first?
Since you decided not to post the pic, this is what I would do during Daemons turn 1, the magus unit is still out in front. I swoop fatey and Magnus up forward near or to the side of the magus unit.
LoC and Screamer star also moves up next to the models not in cover.
So you say I roll a 2 right, so thats 18 WC(i assumed blue horrors are gone) for me and 10 for you?
These are the powers I rolled thats going into magus unit.
Magnus cast siphon magic on 1. Goes off on 1
LoC level 1 flicker fire on 2 dice. Goes off on 1
Herald cast Dark flame torrent on 2 dice. Goes off on 1
Fatey cast flame breath on 2 dice. Goes off on 1
Magnus level 3 flicker fire on 4 dice. Goes off on 4
You tell me if you want to deny and how many dice you wanna throw. If you choose to deny 0, Magnus will be up to 4 free WC plus 7 remaining for Fatey/Magnus to use for the Nova powers. Oh btw I rolled a 3 for Magnus and 5 for Fatey in terms of the S of the novas
I don't care what you say, that magus unit is going down, some of those acolytes has 3+ cover safe at best and those spread out in the open has only 5+ shroud. If he dies to all those other powers prior to me casting any novas, whats the chance of you denying both novas? Or if he use dices to deny some of those other powers, will you have enough left to deny any nova effectively?
Turn 2, you have no more shroud and no adman... OUCH
And that's why it's pointless keep playing out scenario's for you because you either don't like the settings or keep assuming that you will always trow the average result. I played daemons and I know that that is the biggest mistake you can make with them. You really need to focus on the powers you really want and go big or simply start tossing out 1x d6 for every WC1 shooty power so that at least every 4+ is a win. Or simply expect that one or two powers will fail. Also, your just firing away powers but position matters. If fateweaver uses a flamer then the nova coming next will not have that big of an impact because he already killed 3/4 models within 9 inch. If Magnus fires flickering fire at a unit in the back then you got to deal with intervening models (+shrouded), If he fires a unit in the front then that nova also got less models to kill.
In this case I indeed roll your dice and guess what; The LOC failed his psychic test and Magnus got only 9 attacks with his flickering fire and after that wounded only 6 and killed 4. If both flamers hit 4 models so then that would be 6 wounds after a possible 6+ feel no pain. Could be a bit more with soul blaze. So now we are in a position that we both got around 10 warp dice and I can also block on a 4+. So probably one nova will get thru (like I have always been saying).
I know that there is a voice in your head screaming "THAT'S NOT POSSIBLE" but then I would wait with painting your grey daemons and play a little bit more to see if you really like a daemon army. Because you're going to be yelling that a lot...
I'am not going to be posting any pictures / battle report's here because it's very time consuming and I made all the points I wanted to make. I'am going back to the GSC-strategic topic and talk about general GSC tactics, because there are a lot of other armies out there.
Oh and BTW rawne2510; don't call Sonsofvulkan names... he is not like that.. he is just.... special.
Red Corsair wrote: I\d take the skull caddy personally since it gets you a chance at leaving your deployment zone and is cheaper. It also works with the most armies. Coteaz isn't super great in none BB faction armies.
How does Coteaz interact with Cult Ambush? Because if that works, hot DAMN is that a good counter (especially for those 6's on the CA table).
Coteaz would not work against the initial deployment which is why you would also need a skull caddy inquisitor. His IBEY rule would trigger off the cult ambush units arriving from reserve though.
No but he is pretty much the best TAC inclusion for IoM armies, bonus to seize, divination access, a 12in unlimited bubble (which is basically 2ft) of death for his unit he joins on any enemy unit and in a castellan detachment he makes everyone obj secured for 100pts. He may not work on initial deployment but who cares not only does he hinder all subsequent turns ambushes but if you deploy by him you risk him using his bonus to seize to just take the first turn from you and cause serious damage when your that close to shooting and counter charges.
Take another hq for whatever IoM army you play add in the 30pt relic that prevents all deepstrike within 12in and if you scatter in that 12in an auto mishap, on top of a 4++. And you counter a lot of deepstrike armies as well. However servo skulls are better for scouting armies. I guess you could just take a xenos inqusitor with 3 servo skulls and the eccliesary relic and completely screw over deepstrike, arriving from reserves, infiltrators, scouting armies All for 164pts (100 cotaez, 25inq w 9pts skulls, 30pt relic)
Basically IOM has choices not sure about tzetch armies unless you have access to something that forces dangerous terrain checks which can cause some damage to units that move into range.
How does Coteaz interact with Cult Ambush? Because if that works, hot DAMN is that a good counter (especially for those 6's on the CA table).
The problem is that the GSC only need to keep 12 inch away from coteaz and not the other unit members. GSC don't scatter and can place them models exactly where the want to and the shortest assault range possible. But it's still a speed bump.
If the are facing servo skull's then the daemon player need to deploy in the back:
And first turn the all (except one) go into the shadows and come out of reserve with cult ambush.
The problem with servo skulls they die once you move in range. Again the gsc can just setup outside the 12in range and move into range and they are useless after turn. Cotaez is at least durable prevents further cult ambushes from appearing in 12in and helps seize the initiative.
For 164pts just take cotaez and a xenos inq w skulls and the ecclisary relic and you truly screw over a lot of armies that want to manipulate deployment or arrive from reserves but this setup requires a castellan detachment. Which isn't bad but requires 4 troop choices that respawn on a 5+.
Servo Skulls are a big-time menace even assuming they pop on turn one, particularly if you have an army big enough to plug up the table behind them. Definitely worth the handful of points you spend on them.
Coteaz is definitely a fantastic counter to genestealers. It's kind of one of my 40k dreams to get him with a mining laser during deployment just so he can't seize on me.
gungo wrote: The problem with servo skulls they die once you move in range. Again the gsc can just setup outside the 12in range and move into range and they are useless after turn. Cotaez is at least durable prevents further cult ambushes from appearing in 12in and helps seize the initiative.
For 164pts just take cotaez and a xenos inq w skulls and the ecclisary relic and you truly screw over a lot of armies that want to manipulate deployment or arrive from reserves but this setup requires a castellan detachment. Which isn't bad but requires 4 troop choices that respawn on a 5+.
The servo skulls only work on deployment. after that they are useless.
Well they do help with blast templates so not totally useless.
But yes they only effect the first turn infiltration, scout, cult ambush setups.
I'm still a bigger fan of Cortez in a decent shooty unit holding a 2ft bubble on the board that discourages gsc from appearing within 12in of him. Yes someone can deploy near him if you don't have any other form of anti infiltrator ability such as servo skulls or greyfax However you risk getting seized on and taking Substantial damage the first turn.
. And warpflame is a beech for low T units. Then I charge 
But we are not going to show you how just take his word for it.
