MarkNorfolk wrote: Interested if there are any new formations, and of course any unpreviewed units. Definitely going to get a few shadowdwords for my auxilia….
Any other units with a kit would have been announced on WarCom by now. GW don't want random people revealing new models for them and this book will be in public already.
However given that we know of ~11 new unit entries (4 x Russ, 3 x Solar superheavy, 2 x Sicaran, Termite, Sabre), what are the other 13 cards in the deck? Is it a lot of new formations, or are the unit cards doubled up and we only get 2 new formations?
MarkNorfolk wrote: Interested if there are any new formations, and of course any unpreviewed units. Definitely going to get a few shadowdwords for my auxilia….
Any other units with a kit would have been announced on WarCom by now. GW don't want random people revealing new models for them and this book will be in public already.
However given that we know of ~11 new unit entries (4 x Russ, 3 x Solar superheavy, 2 x Sicaran, Termite, Sabre), what are the other 13 cards in the deck? Is it a lot of new formations, or are the unit cards doubled up and we only get 2 new formations?
Not sure about the core book cards but the Great Slaughter cards weren't doubled up and only had 22 cards. Split between 5 Formations and 17 unit cards. But I zoomed in and counted the cards in the image and its still pretty likely they are just doubled up since the image only shows a smaller stack of 12 cards which would be exactly the 11 detachments plus a formation while the Great Slaughter cards actually showed a bigger stack of cards (actually 33 so no idea what the plan was with that).
So, folks who have bought previous LI campaign books, are they worth getting just for the fluff? Not going to play LI anytime soon, but we are planning on running several Tallarn themed games and scenarios using our regular 30K tanks.
BrookM wrote: So, folks who have bought previous LI campaign books, are they worth getting just for the fluff? Not going to play LI anytime soon, but we are planning on running several Tallarn themed games and scenarios using our regular 30K tanks.
They're not quite on a par with the black books from 1st edition HH, but I'd very much recommend. The fluff is good and the maps and art is all very cool. With the Great Slaughter I modified some of the campaign missions and fluff to suit my own Titanicus campaign and it worked out very nicely.
Why would they be present? The Battle of Tallarn was exclusively fought by armoured vehicles because the opening move by the iron warriors was to virus bomb the place. Every living thing on the surface was reduced to methane and mulch.
BrookM wrote: So, folks who have bought previous LI campaign books, are they worth getting just for the fluff? Not going to play LI anytime soon, but we are planning on running several Tallarn themed games and scenarios using our regular 30K tanks.
They're not quite on a par with the black books from 1st edition HH, but I'd very much recommend. The fluff is good and the maps and art is all very cool. With the Great Slaughter I modified some of the campaign missions and fluff to suit my own Titanicus campaign and it worked out very nicely.
I think the campaign rules/missions are the things I am most looking forward to about this, and hopefully some variety in the way those missions are played, beyond the vast majority of current missions which are just rush forward to objectives on turn 1. As someone pointed out on another forum, fog of war sounds like it might be going back to 2nd edition old school of setup boxes, or a hand-drawn map, to hide your deployment from your opponent perhaps?
BrookM - On fluff and artwork.. I would say if you have a reasonable HH collection from the 28mm game there is unlikely to be much to add. The formatting is subjective (I found it pretty dull, just blocks of text on colourless pages). As for artwork? It depends if you class the photoshopped miniatures as art. No doubt they took a lot of effort to do, but it still maddens me that they are sitting on that massive treasure trove of artwork from Collected Visions and also Neil Roberts' work and they just chose to not use any of it for this game..
every single bit of "art" is now little more than a catalogue shot, only slightly amazed each doesn't have a description following it of the models used
they have a massive art collection from Space Marine over the decades, I guess too much of it leads to "so when are the rules for that coming out?"
and the idea of more varied scenarios, more varied scoring, set up etc is firmly in "yes please"
I think even more than the rulebook and 'Slaughter..' Devastation of Tallarn falls foul of walls of text for the story (which I thought relayed the history of the battle quite bandly) and drawings of a predator here and a land raider there, in profile, taking up a third of a page.
Having read the novel Titandeath and the matching Adeptus Titanicus supplement, I thought I would have been 'Beta-Garmoned out' but for flavour I found The Great Slaughter the more interesting book.
Crunch wise though I'm a fan of the new formations, so rules wise Devastation of Tallarn wins out. I like the campaign stuff in both LI expansions.
Biggest worry is them turning Tallarn into a complete Astartes fest on both sides, whereas it has always mainly been one of loyalist Army units versus the Iron Warriors.
As for the Rough Riders remark, if McNeill did the writing, then yeah sure, they would've turned up for sure.. he described Tallarn as a desert world well before it got bombed into icky oblivion.
The approach is great, but I am a bit let down how they didn't add more tiny debris onto the tiles. IME, adding tinyscale debris generously can greatly enhance a terrain piece's sense of scale. Of course you still want to keep the table playable, but yeh
Additionally, the architechture overall looks a bit too monotonious. We really should have a couple more building kits with more diverse wall styles. Like, check this 1st edition Space Marine reference - Even if the old cardboard buildings werent 3D, they had at least variety in architechtural styles
For Astartes we currently only know about four detachments (Sabre, Sicaran Arcus and Punisher and Terrax) and even if they split up the Sabre too thats still only 5 while there are 6 cards here. They might have combined the Sicarans and doubled up to 6x but in the book itself the Battle Tank section has two pages while the Transport and Light Armour sections have one each which would only make sense if the Sicarans are split.
There are also the 3 Vehicle Commanders which I don't think we heard anything about before? which get their own section in the book
For SA we have 11 detachments while we know about 7 (Four LR versions and 3 Super heavy versions) so I also can't see any variation of combining and doubling up that would make sense and add up to 11 cards
For book pages we have three for the Heavy Armour and four for the Battle Tank sections
In conclusion its very likely there are more kits coming
For SA we have 11 detachments while we know about 7 (Four LR versions and 3 Super heavy versions) so I also can't see any variation of combining and doubling up that would make sense and add up to 11 cards
For book pages we have three for the Heavy Armour and four for the Battle Tank sections
In conclusion its very likely there are more kits coming
Unfortunately I don't see that, as GW don't work that way anymore. They're only going to reveal new kits long in advance via WarCom, not via giving the book to customers or influencers.
Last Sunday's article said:
"This set also comes with three Legiones Astartes Vehicle Commander Cards, which contain the commander profiles and their special rules"
Seems likely that any extra cards are things like that - veteran or commander versions for existing kits.
For SA we have 11 detachments while we know about 7 (Four LR versions and 3 Super heavy versions) so I also can't see any variation of combining and doubling up that would make sense and add up to 11 cards For book pages we have three for the Heavy Armour and four for the Battle Tank sections
In conclusion its very likely there are more kits coming
Unfortunately I don't see that, as GW don't work that way anymore. They're only going to reveal new kits long in advance via WarCom, not via giving the book to customers or influencers.
Last Sunday's article said: "This set also comes with three Legiones Astartes Vehicle Commander Cards, which contain the commander profiles and their special rules"
Seems likely that any extra cards are things like that - veteran or commander versions for existing kits.
Yeah I also didn't really think it would happen but I some small hope at least. But taken from the Goonhammer review there aren't any additional units in the book. The additional cards could instead be for the Formations of Legends
Preordered only the cards for now, as usual. Mechanicum battlegroup was my main priority this month, LI stuff can wait.. I got so much to build in the micro machines dept already
This still doesn't really explain the extra detachment cards though. it confirms four new Marine detachments and seven for Solar as expected. The 'formations of legend' don't add up.
Meanwhile Chaos Bunker has some in-depth reviews on the kits. It confirms that the new Sicarans again come with full turrets, so potentially you can even swap turret with any existing Sicarans that aren't glued. With the SA super-heavy kit it's also possible to magnetise weapon options with a drill.
https://www.chaosbunker.de/en/
Formations Of Legend sound cool. Might be a fun way to "balance" games, by being forced to pick only FOL detachments?
All in all, I'm starting to feel like LI is close to becoming a "complete" game in the sense that most typical units have stats and models after this expansion has fully released. Now we just need more factions!
It sounds like a lot of extra content for campaign missions, granular detail on the units you can pick, but we are still waiting for a lot of basic units to be added to the roster. Expansion number 2, and we still don't have Vindicators, marine artillery, some marine Super Heavies. And it's an oft-used joke by Necromunda players, but soon you'll need your own servitor to carry books between games.
I'm really interested in the campaign format idea and we have a dedicated group of players that I think it will suit, so am going to put in a pre-order.
You can see in the GMG review that the Tallarn book has box art & fluff sections for the Sicaran Venator. Presumably that's coming in the next wave at least.
And it's an oft-used joke by Necromunda players, but soon you'll need your own servitor to carry books between games.
.
I do not want by any means defend the GW approach in general, or this awful game in particular, and I know it is a joke . But complaining about having to carrry 3 (or any) books to a game seems quite ridiculous, am I the only one in the world that came up with the idea of just copying the pages where the units (datacards) one uses are? in my case for the second book those were just the Basilisk page and the Dracosan page...
Copying the relevant bits rather goes without saying, but the broader point is that spreading the army list so thinly across multiple hardback books has no possible upside for the consumer. At best it's an annoyance. I've not bought either of the expansions for a couple of reasons, and the too-little-butter-spread-across-too-much-bread nature of the army list is a key reason.
I'd dearly like to see Epic succeed, but the continued handling of the game has made it impossible for me to evangelise for it. The Tallarn Campaign book is emblematic of the reasons for that: the balance of material I do want made prohibitively expensive by material I'm not fussed about.
SU-152 wrote: am I the only one in the world that came up with the idea of just copying the pages where the units (datacards) one uses are? in my case for the second book those were just the Basilisk page and the Dracosan page...
Personally I'm happy to just keep ignoring any prinetd GW rules materials completely and use Legion Builder. It gets more features every month.
SamusDrake wrote: Given that Astartes can take Solar superheavies as allied support, I'd much rather see the next supplement cover Mechanicum and Households.
My expectation is that there will be release wave either just before or after the main Mechanicum launch where some of the resin Knight kits are re-done in plastic. That gives potential Mechanicum players a chance to buy things in phases rather than all at once. Box art for the Styrix & Atrapos has been done since launch, and plastic Armigers seem like they'd be popular.
With only a handful of kits left needed to 'complete' the Solar range, I wonder if the next book (Molech?) will focus more on Marine tanks versus Knights. Sicaran Venators, Falchions, Cerberus...
Then book 4 could launch Mechanicum with some token Solar kits (Aurox, Carnadon).
Apologist wrote: Copying the relevant bits rather goes without saying, but the broader point is that spreading the army list so thinly across multiple hardback books has no possible upside for the consumer. At best it's an annoyance. I've not bought either of the expansions for a couple of reasons, and the too-little-butter-spread-across-too-much-bread nature of the army list is a key reason.
I'd dearly like to see Epic succeed, but the continued handling of the game has made it impossible for me to evangelise for it. The Tallarn Campaign book is emblematic of the reasons for that: the balance of material I do want made prohibitively expensive by material I'm not fussed about.
Aside from the digital option which GW is allergic to, what's the alternative?
They release army books for each faction, which are obsolete every 6-12 months abdnneed to be repurchased as GW continues expanding the game? That's more of an annoyance than the current model IMO.
I don't expect knights or titans to get faction treatment. GW has been pretty clear that's not the scope for this game, they even locked that concept behind a wholly separate game mode already. I would expect though that when they release Mechanicum they will have more flexibility to include knights/titans as a higher proportion of the force than SA and Astartes do, so you won't be able to play Knight/Titan pure but you'll be able to go heavy on them.
Aside from the digital option which GW is allergic to, what's the alternative?
They release army books for each faction, which are obsolete every 6-12 months abdnneed to be repurchased as GW continues expanding the game? That's more of an annoyance than the current model IMO.
I find most people actually dislike that kind of thing, especially for games that receive regular rules updates. It invariably results in higher costs due to the need to buy upgrade packs, and frustration when you buy an older box of a kit and gst the outdated rules instead of the most recent.
Apologist wrote: Copying the relevant bits rather goes without saying, but the broader point is that spreading the army list so thinly across multiple hardback books has no possible upside for the consumer. [...]too-little-butter-spread-across-too-much-bread nature of the army list
Aside from the digital option which GW is allergic to, what's the alternative?
They release army books for each faction, which are obsolete every 6-12 months abdnneed to be repurchased as GW continues expanding the game? That's more of an annoyance than the current model IMO.
Better grouping of releases would have helped matters a great deal. Legions has enjoyed a huge number of releases, but in weird groups. Why were the Fast Attack options for Space Marines, and artillery options for Guard, included in the Titandeath expansion? The Legion and Auxilia fast attack/artillery boxes should have been released with the core game, while the Kratos/Baneblade/Shadowsword etc. would have made a better complement for Titandeath.
The card decks could also have been a way to shore things up; by including cards for the full list in decks released alongside expansions. Much more simply, however, GW could include a summary chart at the back of each expansion with an up-to-date army list.
I'd agree with your point about frustration with cards in boxes becoming outdated – except that there's little if any indication that GW are intending to provide any updates or FAQs...
chaos0xomega wrote: I find most people actually dislike that kind of thing, especially for games that receive regular rules updates. It invariably results in higher costs due to the need to buy upgrade packs, and frustration when you buy an older box of a kit and gst the outdated rules instead of the most recent.
^^^ this, oh so much this
have also seen with other games that do this "the rule cards are in the box" stuff there is a serious reluctance to make changes when errors are found so as not to invalidate the cards
its also why this treadmill release stuff is so frustrating as a player and ends up being seriously offputting.
cards can be useful, but need to be done right, and need to also be entirely optional without stuck idiocy as making the rulebook entries a pain in the backside to use with the aim of forcing card purchases (looking at Battlefront here)
another massive requirement for cards that hardly anyone seems to ever do, have an issue date printed on them somewhere or some method that makes it very clear if you have the "current" version or a previous one - changing the design on the back or something
Heck GW doesn't even print the edition in the Codex/Battletomes they make. For a time you could do it by the design and cover, but they've had a few editions now where they use the same (or nearly the same) cover art on the book so you can't even do that trick.
Now to be fair GW are an enigma because their rule updates are FAST (3 years) and they update the whole game with new core mechanics and structure. Most other firms update the core rules much slower and often tend to err toward tweaking rather than wholesale rebuilding.
GW very much does almost all the wrong things with paper based gaming and rules. They only get away with it because of the sheer size of their firm and how well positioned they are in the market. Any other firm that tried to do what GW does would likely fail.
Cards in the box worked great for Warmachine 1.0 and 2.0. However when they went to 3.0 they only managed about one annual update to the card sets and then kind of just gave up.
I think part of the issue is simply the firm ordering and distributing stock and having enough sales movement to keep it a viable option; but I think there's also just flat out issues with how firms approach the paperwork side of things.
Apps and such have the bonus that you can update things swiftly, but at the same time they've their own drawbacks including the need to have a machine capable of running an app (slightly less of an issue today than 10-20 years ago); and the fact that for many people, the gaming night is a night they want ot step away from electronics.
IIRC, Aeronautica Imperialis & Blood Bowl have rules in the box (at least for the resin models), and Adeptus Titanicus has the terminals there as well, so it's not like GW can't do it if they want.
there are also cases of how not to do it from others, e.g. Battlefront's Clash of Steel..
in a flip from Flames of War and Team Yankee, where cards are in the boxes here they are not - they are in the starter sets, so yes buy a starter you get all the cards for that faction
there is no way to get the rules for a faction without buying that starter.. e.g. I have the American and Soviet starter, I would quite like the rules for the Germans to see what I'm up against but have to buy a starter I don't need or want to get them
with GW the update cycle is a large part of the issue, especially as noted given they make "what edition is this?" hard to know, also a problem given the damned cards tend to be out of stock after the initial release - presumably to try and force sales on release
CorwinB wrote: IIRC, Aeronautica Imperialis & Blood Bowl have rules in the box (at least for the resin models), and Adeptus Titanicus has the terminals there as well, so it's not like GW can't do it if they want.
What's weird is that Titanicus originally started out forcing you to buy some (but not all) rules separately. The expansion books themselves were largely optional / add-on content, but you need enough command terminals & weapon cards for your full list and those were sold as fairly expensive packs. The launch box came with a small number, but if you wanted more than two of the same titan that required either a photocopy of your current cards or an extra ~£15 purchase. The low point was when the Acastus knights released without rules in the box, and the limited number of terminal card packs for them sold out on day one.
GW had to post the knight terminal cards as a free PDF download to make the kits playable. Then any new kits released from the Warbinger titan onwards came with thin terminal & weapon cards in the box instead.
I'm resigned to the fact that GW are never going to give away their release roadmap by printing rules for every planned kit in the core book. But it's a real shame they didn't carry that Titanicus lesson over to LI and either offer detachment cards in the boxes, or PDF downloads so you don't need a £30+ book to use a single kit.
In response to a question over on B&C I added up the numbers of kits and sprues for all specialist games (except Necromunda) and since I already took the time I wanted to post it over here too as its quite interesting how much investment LI is getting:
Ignoring any terrain and bases and using sprue sizes instead of kit numbers to gauge investment these are the numbers different sub-games got:
I'll count the Dire Wolf and Warhound weapons as Titanicus releases but the plastic Arvus Lighter as LI release instead of AI.
The sprues sizes will all be converted to medium size sprues which is the LI standard size.
Legions Imperialis got 24 kits with 24 medium size sprues with 3 more kits with 3 more sprues on the way so 27 medium size sprues in 9 months
Titanicus got 14 plastic kits with 34.25 medium size sprues , 8 resin Knight/Titans kits and 19 resin weapon releases (still counting resin releases that later got replaced by plastic)
So a total of 34.25 medium size sprues and 27 resin releases over a total of 72 months
Aeronautica Imperialis got 21 plastic kits with 23 medium size sprues and 15 resin resin releases
So a total of 23 medium size sprues and 15 resin releases over a total of 27 months (Launched in June 2020, last release in August 2022 with the Legio Custodes Ares Gunship)
Underworlds got 58 warbands with 1 medium size sprue each so a total of 58 medium size sprues over a total of 82 months
Warcry got 32 kits with 54 medium size sprues over a total of 60 months. It also got alot of terrain releases but I'm not counting them here.
Kill Team second edition got some new 40k models released as part of KT commander sets but they weren't really KT releases so the Elucidian Starstriders and Gellerpox Infected were the only real KT releases so 3 medium size sprues. It really started with the 3 season so thats when I'm going to start counting.
KT 3rd season got 15 kits and 8 upgrade kits with 40.5 medium size sprues over a total of 36 months. Again alot of terrain releases but I'm not counting them here.
Necromunda is a bit too muddled with their releases for me so not going to count them.
So on average:
LI got 3 medium size sprues per month
Titanicus got 0.48 medium size sprues and 0.375 resin releases per month
Aeronautica got 0.85 medium size sprues and 0.55 resin releases per month
Underworlds got 0.707 medium size sprues per month
Warcry got 0.9 medium size sprues per month
Kill Team got 1.125 medium size sprues per month
So on average LI got nearly 3x as much as the next highest game. Of course LI is still young so now is the time we are getting more kits in average so that will distort the numbers but still we are getting some nice output
Really interesting statistics, thanks!
It's obvious from those numbers that LI is getting a lot of investment, and that they seem really serious to see it succeed. I suspect most/all of what we have seen so far was already in the pipeline before the somewhat troubled launch.
I checked the recently released Year End Report for additional information on LI's performance, but couldn't find anything.
Yeah GW don’t break down their sales by game, hence we should always take any online claims about what is or isn’t selling with a hearty pinch of salt.
On the books?
If it’s what it takes to keep these non-core games in production, I can live with it. And it’s not as if the books are otherwise devoid of content.
It also adds a certain impetus to buy more than just the new models, as players may look at the new Detachment and figure “hey, another unit of Preadtors would round that one out nicely” or similar.
Also, from a historical point of view? This is what I’m used to with Epic. In second edition, the main box had rules for a small selection of units. You then got the expansion boxes (Armies of the Imperium, Ork & Squat Warlords, Hive War, Chaos & Eldar Renegades), which fleshed out two armies each. From there you also got various WD releases, Titan Legions, and more WD releases.
As ever, that’s not to say “therefore it are grate and fab and STFU n00b”. Because it can be a pain, especially when trying to track down every last WD for a vintage collection! But, it is why I for one am genuinely not bothered at buying multiple books and expansions. It’s just what I’m used to.
If it’s what it takes to keep these non-core games in production, I can live with it. And it’s not as if the books are otherwise devoid of content.
It also adds a certain impetus to buy more than just the new models, as players may look at the new Detachment and figure “hey, another unit of Preadtors would round that one out nicely” or similar.
Also, from a historical point of view? This is what I’m used to with Epic. In second edition, the main box had rules for a small selection of units. You then got the expansion boxes (Armies of the Imperium, Ork & Squat Warlords, Hive War, Chaos & Eldar Renegades), which fleshed out two armies each. From there you also got various WD releases, Titan Legions, and more WD releases.
... and that's a much more customer-friendly approach. The main box for Space Marine Second Edition (SM2) had functional army lists for five factions. The expansions tended to focus on two factions at a time (e.g. Space Marine and Guard; Ork and Squat; Eldar and Chaos), and gave expanded army lists for each, which included a complete reprint of the original lists.
In contrast, the army lists in the Legions Imperialis (LI) core box are seemingly based purely on the models immediately or imminently available, while the expansions provide only a handful of additions at a time. Are there understandable commercial reasons for that? Of course – but if the aim is to keep these non-core games in production, it strikes me that making it easy to get in on the ground floor is key.
Hell, why not take a page from the past and provide a summary sheet in White Dwarf of the new models?
Apologist wrote: ... and that's a much more customer-friendly approach. The main box for Space Marine Second Edition (SM2) had functional army lists for five factions. The expansions tended to focus on two factions at a time (e.g. Space Marine and Guard; Ork and Squat; Eldar and Chaos), and gave expanded army lists for each, which included a complete reprint of the original lists.
In contrast, the army lists in the Legions Imperialis (LI) core box are seemingly based purely on the models immediately or imminently available, while the expansions provide only a handful of additions at a time. Are there understandable commercial reasons for that?
Yes, this is something GW have done since a court case over a decade ago.
Basically 40k codexes used to include rules for all sorts of units & wargear that didn't have models at all, and may or may not have been planned for later. A small company called Chapterhouse started selling their own resin models for these gaps in the GW range, like Tyranid Tervigons or Eldar Farseers on jetbikes. It went to court, GW won part of the case but lost on many other points.
The general takeaway was that GW need to have a physical model ready for sale to be protected from a legal point of view, rules & concept sketches aren't enough. Given their business model and the long lead time in creating plastic kits, there was also a geniune risk of publishing rules for a new unit, a third-party jumps in with their own hand-sculpted resin item, then the GW kit releases the official version some time later which legally speaking could considered be an imtiation of the 3rd-party model. So from around 2012 GW has operated on "no model no rules", generally only making game rules available when they have a model kit close to going on sale.
LI is also likely the most vulnerable GW game system to this kind of 'issue', because not only is 3D printing really efficient at this scale but a lot of the units already exist as full size HH kits that can be easily rescaled by the community. They will definitely be worried about giving customers several months headstart to print out their own land raiders or falchions when the models were still some time away from release.
It's also because GW are the elephant in the market so everyone copies GW. I've seen a previewed model appear as a 3D design in under a day from the preview image going live.
I don't know if GW has to have a model in production and on sale to copyright it (you don't have to sell something to hold the copyright over it); but its much more likely that GW just doesn't want to allow the 3rd party market to fullfill a model requirement before GW can. So not putting new things in the book and such helps prevent that from happening.
The other bonus is it stopped GW putting more and more models into books that required you to convert/buy 3rd party. They had gotten pretty bad at doing that for a while and whilst it was cool to get new things faster; it was a pain when there was just no model to buy. Conversions should be optional not mandatory to field a force
Good overview, @xttz. Things have certainly changed since SM2 – I just wish GW had found another solution.
Given the huge range that has been released, I wonder how things would have differed if the core box had been purely Space Marines, with Solar Auxilia a follow-up in their own book?
I can see the advantages to having two factions in the core box. It was a great way to get the inevitably less popular SA into player's hands, tempting them to start an army. It also ensured Marine players weren't satiated with just the core box, and encouraged buying the expansions.
Still... I wonder how the releases would have looked if it had followed another route.
In all likelihood, we will get a "Compendium" book of sort later down the line with full army lists and perhaps FAQed Core rules. Doesn't make it easier to carry the books in the meantime, of course.
tauist wrote: The approach is great, but I am a bit let down how they didn't add more tiny debris onto the tiles. IME, adding tinyscale debris generously can greatly enhance a terrain piece's sense of scale. Of course you still want to keep the table playable, but yeh
Additionally, the architechture overall looks a bit too monotonious. We really should have a couple more building kits with more diverse wall styles. Like, check this 1st edition Space Marine reference - Even if the old cardboard buildings werent 3D, they had at least variety in architechtural styles
CorwinB wrote: In all likelihood, we will get a "Compendium" book of sort later down the line with full army lists and perhaps FAQed Core rules. Doesn't make it easier to carry the books in the meantime, of course.
No, but I'll admit that this staggered release is a factor in me not getting into the game yet.
CorwinB wrote: In all likelihood, we will get a "Compendium" book of sort later down the line with full army lists and perhaps FAQed Core rules. Doesn't make it easier to carry the books in the meantime, of course.
My concern with this is that releasing compendium books (like they did for Titanicus) typically means that model range is considered 'complete' for the forseeable future.
Let's say GW release a book with all of the LI space marine rules, it's a lose-lose situation:
a) They continue releasing space marine kits a few months later, and that 'master list' is outdated
b) They move on to another project like LI Mechanicum or BFG, and LI marines are left in limbo for at least a year. New players will not want to start collecting LI marines in case that's the beginning of the end.
This is why it's important to have more accessible rules while the models are still fully supported. I really hope to see GW following the Titanicus model much sooner this time, and make detachment datacards available via PDF download.
It's a fair concern – Adeptus Titanicus (AT) had a trifecta of books released that seemed to mark the end of its active release cycle (for want of a better phrase): Loyalist, Traitor and Matched Play guide. Taken together, these serve as a sort of v1.5 edition of the game that smooth off those few rough edges the game had – what GW do next with the game will be interesting.
For Legions Imperialis (LI), I think the model is slightly different. It's a much broader scope than AT, with far more moving parts. I think the thing I'd like to see in a year's time is a compendium that has core lists for Legions Astartes and Solar Auxilia – once those are in place, I think I'd be much happier with campaign books that introduce genuinely optional units like Legion-specific stuff, and have far less to grouse about.
For instance, right now it’s sodding difficult to get your mitts on Assault, Support, Heavy Support Marines and Terminators, without ending up with a load of Tacticals.
So something like a support infantry box, rejigging and reusing the existing sculpts would work nicely for me.
For instance, right now it’s sodding difficult to get your mitts on Assault, Support, Heavy Support Marines and Terminators, without ending up with a load of Tacticals.
So something like a support infantry box, rejigging and reusing the existing sculpts would work nicely for me.
The Tallarn release shows that GW seem to see value in selling very similar vehicles in different boxes (Leman Russ Strike and Leman Russ Executioner & Demolisher boxes are separate, for example), so I'm cautiously optimistic about this. There are a few little suggestions like the Imperial Fists' Legion rules, for example, that reference weapons not in the game. Whether these are solid plans or hopeful future-proofing on the part of the designers, who can say?
A lot of the releases mirror the 40k-scale Age of Darkness list, from which the following infantry types are missing in LI:
Whether all (or indeed any) will turn up in LI is unclear, but if there is a new box of infantry, I'd anticipate them theming them somehow. Something like 'Legiones Astartes Siege Assault Infantry' or something, with some or all of the above involved.
Also, from a historical point of view? This is what I’m used to with Epic. In second edition, the main box had rules for a small selection of units. You then got the expansion boxes (Armies of the Imperium, Ork & Squat Warlords, Hive War, Chaos & Eldar Renegades), which fleshed out two armies each. From there you also got various WD releases, Titan Legions, and more WD releases.
From that same historial PoV, after they did that, on the next two editions of the game they released full, complete lists instead of splitting them. And on the magazines and/or supplements they added different things, either as full new lists or as new detachments of new subfactions (Like admech or sororitas detachments for Imperium armies).
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CorwinB wrote: In all likelihood, we will get a "Compendium" book of sort later down the line with full army lists and perhaps FAQed Core rules. Doesn't make it easier to carry the books in the meantime, of course.
Unlike I did with Necromunda, if I decide to buy into this game, it will be after it comes out of beta.
My biggest concern with this game is where GW is going to go too once they've done the visually distinct factions.
With 30K They could do lots of Space Marine subfactions; but with LI I worry that they can't as easily do that because most of the differences between Marine groups are small details that are just not going to really show on models of this scale.
So once you've got Marines; Guard; Mechanicus; Traitor corrupted models - you're almost basically done with 30K unless they can lean into a few exotics like Sisters of Silence and so forth.
Overread wrote: My biggest concern with this game is where GW is going to go too once they've done the visually distinct factions.
With 30K They could do lots of Space Marine subfactions; but with LI I worry that they can't as easily do that because most of the differences between Marine groups are small details that are just not going to really show on models of this scale.
GW can potentially spend quite a bit of time fleshing out the other end of that scale with models that would be impractical for many people in regular Heresy games; Stormbird, Mastodon, Gorgon, Leviathan, Capitol Imperalis, multiple Ordinatus engines, etc. Then on top of Primarchs & legion retinues; Custodes, SoS, and Daemons are also solid candidates for lower-scale resin releases, There's further scope to explore Titans, with units like the Rapier scout titan & Imperator being widely anticipated for some time. I think there's definitely more than enough pending Heresy content to fill their usual 4-5 year release cycle, possibly two cycles.
Beyond that? They can further prolong the Heresy setting with a year or two exploring BFG, much like the Aeronautica releases following AT.
The next obvious major step would be Heresy-era Orks & Eldar, who could fight the existing LI model ranges without creating a huge void of pending epic-scale 40k content. However I think that would first require Black Library producing new material from that era to build on, so my fingers are crossed for some kind of Scouring book series.
there's still custodes and sisters, and i think combined they have enough for a model release
any hope of eldar or orks getting into LI is just cope, tho. it's the same as people who keep hoping that GW is going to add eldar or orks to HH. if GW is going to make eldar or ork models at that scale, it's because they expand nuepic into the 40k setting
When Titanicus came out six years ago people said it was copium to expect tanks & infantry in this scale. If GW believe something will make them money they will do it.
However best case I don't see it happening before the end of the decade, and it massively depends on the success of LI.
Heresy is a pretty safe way to explore new/returning games. And it’s the same reason Adeptus Titanicus was, initially, a Man vs Man game.
It’s essentially the cheapest outlay possible.
Do I expect 40K Epic particularly soon? Not really. But if Legions Imperialis continues to sell? I think we will see it.
From an interview I shared in the Link Tank, Robin Dews explained not only did the original version of Epic sell really well (though today’s one with Rick Priestly suggest Titan Legions didn’t sell well), but its scale allowed the design team to really flesh out 40K in a way they just couldn’t in 28mm at the time.
And that I think is true, after all everything short of (to the best of my knowledge, there may be some crossover) the Landraider, Predator, Rhino and Battle Wagon all first came in epic scale.
Of course, modern GW is a very different beast, so the same rule isn’t quite as strong.
But it’s still a scale for massive battles and previously unseen war machines.
StudentOfEtherium wrote: there's still custodes and sisters, and i think combined they have enough for a model release
any hope of eldar or orks getting into LI is just cope, tho. it's the same as people who keep hoping that GW is going to add eldar or orks to HH. if GW is going to make eldar or ork models at that scale, it's because they expand nuepic into the 40k setting
I agree. My gut says that there's an IP firewall in place at GW, and that the HH is the sandbox that the teams working on LI, AT, 30K, etc. are allowed to play in.
If 40K factions were intended for LI, then the game would have been called "Epic" in the first place and probably created by the main studio and released with at least two different factions instead of one.
With how Old World has been handled its very clear that there's some kind of internal segmentation going on within GW itself. Quite how the divisions are is hard to tell from the outside - it could even just be something like marketing and resource allocation wanting fully separate product and marketing lines so that they can easily track sales, popularity and so forth
Some bits could also just be preferences of different design teams; eg the FW team might well prefer working in 30K in the first place and wants it all in there. This might mean that they just don't push/fight for other content in certain areas. Though its interesting to me that GW has been steadily removing more and more of the FW models from 40K without releasing direct replacements.
Even pretty popular stuff has been vanishing. Eg Tyranids lost a lot of popular and practical models and now only have the two, high priced titan models left.
StudentOfEtherium wrote: there's still custodes and sisters, and i think combined they have enough for a model release
any hope of eldar or orks getting into LI is just cope, tho. it's the same as people who keep hoping that GW is going to add eldar or orks to HH. if GW is going to make eldar or ork models at that scale, it's because they expand nuepic into the 40k setting
I agree. My gut says that there's an IP firewall in place at GW, and that the HH is the sandbox that the teams working on LI, AT, 30K, etc. are allowed to play in.
If 40K factions were intended for LI, then the game would have been called "Epic" in the first place and probably created by the main studio and released with at least two different factions instead of one.
The unit boxes do have “Epic Scale” logos in the bottom left hand corner. Likely stop your lovely Granny grabbing the wrong scale box at Xmas, but could also be a sub-game indicator thing.
When Titanicus came out six years ago people said it was copium to expect tanks & infantry in this scale. If GW believe something will make them money they will do it.
However best case I don't see it happening before the end of the decade, and it massively depends on the success of LI.
see, but Titanicus never got tanks and infantry. LI did. and LI will never get eldar and orks, because if that becomes a thing, it would be as its own game
Overread wrote: My biggest concern with this game is where GW is going to go too once they've done the visually distinct factions.
Why is that a concern? GW call it done and people can play in peace, without waiting for more and more and more?
Overread wrote: With how Old World has been handled its very clear that there's some kind of internal segmentation going on within GW itself. Quite how the divisions are is hard to tell from the outside - it could even just be something like marketing and resource allocation wanting fully separate product and marketing lines so that they can easily track sales, popularity and so forth
Maybe, but don't you think TOW and LI are two very different beasts? even from the same department? TOW: good rules, lots of faqs, nice support, barely any nice new minis. LI: awful rules, feels like an alpha version (not even a beta), no faqs, but otoh lots of nice new minis.
Because GW established that a GW without new releases is "dead" and people don't cover/post/play dead games
So the moment GW drops it people drop it too and those that stay are similar hard to find than those playing other non-GW games (like going back to before LI was released and trying to play Epic Armageddon)
PS: and the situation for TOW and LI is similar in rules and models
TOW has more rules support but still not good rules were LI has more model support
Difference is just that there is a bigger base of old school Warhammer Fantasy players than there are old Epic players
StudentOfEtherium wrote: see, but Titanicus never got tanks and infantry. LI did. and LI will never get eldar and orks, because if that becomes a thing, it would be as its own game
The point being made was that eventually GW could produce more epic-scale orks & eldar models if they believed enough people would buy them. Of course it would a new game system with another name, that's pretty obvious.
kodos wrote: PS: and the situation for TOW and LI is similar in rules and models
TOW has more rules support but still not good rules were LI has more model support
Difference is just that there is a bigger base of old school Warhammer Fantasy players than there are old Epic players
Honestly I think the biggest factor is the models side of the equation. TOW is specifically built around fetching your old models out of the attic, dusting them off, then optionally buying any number of new toys you want. These models have been very cheap on second-hand markets for a long time. You can also use virtually any existing fantasy terrain, which is already pretty easily accessible in many clubs and dining tables.
LI was designed around needing an entirely new army in a new scale to before, and requires terrain that pretty much only AT players would already own. Even at the best case of owning AT titans & Imperial Aeronautica planes, LI still requires a lot of things to be bought & painted. The barrier to entry is much higher than TOW.
Anecdotally; a lot of the same people at my local club picked up things for both TOW and LI. However they're predominately playing TOW because that was sooo much quicker to get onto the tabletop. Their LI models are sat at various stages of assembly & painting, and many haven't played a game yet.
kodos wrote: Because GW established that a GW without new releases is "dead" and people don't cover/post/play dead games
So the moment GW drops it people drop it too and those that stay are similar hard to find than those playing other non-GW games (like going back to before LI was released and trying to play Epic Armageddon)
PS: and the situation for TOW and LI is similar in rules and models
TOW has more rules support but still not good rules were LI has more model support
Difference is just that there is a bigger base of old school Warhammer Fantasy players than there are old Epic players
TOW has the bonus that there's a lot more creative space to expand into and the models are much larger so you can do alternate variations/evolutions and have more of a marked change that encourages sales.
And its not really GW that went for the whole "no new releases means its dead". This is 100% on the gamers as well. Consider how many were saying that slaanesh was going to be removed from the game for a time.
Now Old World has proven that old stuff can and will sell; and there's plenty of older games that kick around still selling the same models for decades.
The thing is marketing is much much easier when you've something new and shiny to show off. People latch onto it way faster and engage with it, get hyped and want to buy it.
When you're showing off the same models that you've been showing off for the last 20 years for the 1000th time your existing customers are less engaged. Sure its still a cool model, but they've seen it, done it, might have bought it - don't need another. Or if it never caught their eye 10 years ago chances are its still not going to catch their eye now.
Stagnation is an issue and its no surprise that the firms you see flourishing, growing and being more dominant in the market are those with fresh releases whilst those that have very few to no fresh releases are often living on "life support" with smaller customer bases.
So sure GW could call LI done at a certain point and stop releasing new models (or many new models) but that would give a sense that the game is going to die. Wargamers invest into games as long term thing - the idea of a short term game with death on the horizon is not attractive. Because when a game dies the marketing dies; the draw of new people; new developments; organised events; etc.... All that can come crumbling down unless you are very lucky. For every game like Bloodbowl that managed to survive the lights going off; there's way more Man-O-War where it never survived.
Granted those also came iwth the parent firm shutting down production. And lets face it if GW has a big line of models that are ticking over or the option of releasing two or three new armies for 40K that will fly off the shelves you can bet you know where they will want to turn their resources
kodos wrote: Because GW established that a GW without new releases is "dead" and people don't cover/post/play dead games
So the moment GW drops it people drop it too and those that stay are similar hard to find than those playing other non-GW games (like going back to before LI was released and trying to play Epic Armageddon)
That is so ridiculous that I just cannot believe people follow that
TOW has more rules support but still not good rules were LI has more model support
Difference is just that there is a bigger base of old school Warhammer Fantasy players than there are old Epic players
Ok in absolute terms. In relative terms TOW rules are a couple of orders of magnitude better than LI.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: From an interview I shared in the Link Tank, Robin Dews explained not only did the original version of Epic sell really well (though today’s one with Rick Priestly suggest Titan Legions didn’t sell well), but its scale allowed the design team to really flesh out 40K in a way they just couldn’t in 28mm at the time.
Just watched that video, and I think Rick is getting the games mixed up a little here. Titan Legions continued what was probably the golden age of Epic in the early-mid 90's, with new releases pretty much every month. Also the Imperator & Mega-gargant kits were very popular.
Epic 40k and Gorkmorka were the games that crashed & burned, not least due to the GW sales execs over-aggressively pushing into the European market. The timing of those lines up perfectly with early development on Warmaster.
Surely the obvious way for GW to add Orks to the game would be following a roadmap like this:
PHASE 1 - standard legions and Auxillia
PHASE 2 - Admech
PHASE 3 - Corrupted and shattered legions
PHASE 4 - The siege of Terra, demons, primarchs, cultists etc.
PHASE 5 - The war of the beast. Orks and possibly Eldar added.
PHASE 6 - Advance to 41st millennium and redo the marine and guard factions.
PHASE 7/8 - Necrons, Tau, Nids and Sisters
Eldar could so easily be brought into LI using Stygies VIII as the perfect campaign setting. As far back as 1st Ed Titancius, Eldar Titan clans were introduced with fending off traitors on several worlds.
Dæmons of the Ruinstorm would scratch a massive itch for a lot of people. I know I've mentioned it before, but being able to field a Epic 2nd edition style Chaos army would be amazing. Dæmon engines, corrupted Titans and hordes of Dæmons...
agree on LI, it will stay as 30k, I doubt GW want 40k players to see it as a cheaper way to play their game with more mahoosive things.
it would be good in say 2-3 years to get a 2nd edition that does what epic used to have, bring in Titans properly with elements of AT integrated so they are more than just big walking tanks
and maybe bring in bits from AI as well to make aircraft feel like aircraft
they could do Xenos, not seeing it, thats 40k's thing and it means even more SKU when they have trouble with what they have now. I can see a fair bit going to almost splash releases though where if you miss them you have a bit of a wait as they try to trim the size of the product range (maybe with more larger "force" boxes being the only source for some "core" stuff)
they really do need to redo a lot of the rules, but need to get all of the first edition stuff out there first so when and if 2nd turns up they can have a largely functionally complete range to work with as a baseline
I know some people do keep playing games that are “dead”, but I think you will find that most people will drop a game if it has been out of production a few years. It is hard to find new players if the game is not still produced. Groups that do keep playing tend to start using more “house” rules which means a player from another area can not just start playing with an existing group as easily. So yes, it is pretty common and reasonable that dead games die off in the general public.
No game is dead if 2 people want to play it. Many games we use are considered "dead" but what other people believe is unimportant to us, as long as we still enjoy playing it then brilliant.
It seems many people like to follow what alleged influencers say. Luckily for me I don't care. I've never followed online preferences, never looked for online painting tutorials like YouTube etc.
I'm an old school Wargamer who started with historical gaming which far predates anything like GW. I do my own research into uniforms etc even into mythical/fantasy creatures using, wait for it, BOOKS. I know shocking as it maybe, internet is mostly for discussing things like this, for research I always use books. Too much information online can be just one person's own headcannon.
Back onto subject, hopefully the game will keep growing with Mechanicus and daemons through to siege of Terra and even the. Scouring.
I'm enjoying playing LI I find the rules fine as I'm always a narrative player. I've already got some fairly decent size forces. Just over 6000 points each of BA and Sons of Horus as well as over 10k worth of Solar Auxillia so even were they to stop selling tomorrow I've got plenty to keep me entertained for years.
schoon wrote: I see discussion about Orks and Elder, but a more likely path to my eyes would be Mechanicum.
They are firmly within the Horus Heresy.
One set of models can be used on both sides.
Any discussion of Orks and Eldar is about after they finish the actual HH factions. Of course Custodes, Mechanicum and to a lesser degree Deamons of the Ruinstorm will be first but Orks and Eldar would be the two faction that make the most sense after we are finished with the HH factions as they have been around back then
xttz wrote: It's highly likely that Mechanicum are already done, and just await distribution/release.
Especially after we have plastic Mechanicum in 28mm HH now. Originally I even expected GW to release them for both systems at roughly the same time, as they did with Solar Auxillia, but that doesn't seem to be happening. But I would be surprised if we have to wait longer than two more expansion books for something Mechanicum related.
Maybe we'll get them for our 1 year anniversary in November
Apologist wrote: ... and that's a much more customer-friendly approach. The main box for Space Marine Second Edition (SM2) had functional army lists for five factions. The expansions tended to focus on two factions at a time (e.g. Space Marine and Guard; Ork and Squat; Eldar and Chaos), and gave expanded army lists for each, which included a complete reprint of the original lists.
In contrast, the army lists in the Legions Imperialis (LI) core box are seemingly based purely on the models immediately or imminently available, while the expansions provide only a handful of additions at a time. Are there understandable commercial reasons for that?
Yes, this is something GW have done since a court case over a decade ago.
Basically 40k codexes used to include rules for all sorts of units & wargear that didn't have models at all, and may or may not have been planned for later. A small company called Chapterhouse started selling their own resin models for these gaps in the GW range, like Tyranid Tervigons or Eldar Farseers on jetbikes. It went to court, GW won part of the case but lost on many other points.
The general takeaway was that GW need to have a physical model ready for sale to be protected from a legal point of view, rules & concept sketches aren't enough. Given their business model and the long lead time in creating plastic kits, there was also a geniune risk of publishing rules for a new unit, a third-party jumps in with their own hand-sculpted resin item, then the GW kit releases the official version some time later which legally speaking could considered be an imtiation of the 3rd-party model. So from around 2012 GW has operated on "no model no rules", generally only making game rules available when they have a model kit close to going on sale.
LI is also likely the most vulnerable GW game system to this kind of 'issue', because not only is 3D printing really efficient at this scale but a lot of the units already exist as full size HH kits that can be easily rescaled by the community. They will definitely be worried about giving customers several months headstart to print out their own land raiders or falchions when the models were still some time away from release.
This being said, I would be interested to know what are the volume of sales actually lost to 3D printers and proxies. The FB groups for Legions are full of people posting their purchases, piles of boxes at values probably approaching 4 figures, while most of the veteran Epic players I know personally are still buying Legions stuff, even though they own printers and have extensive non-official collections (I am one of them too! )
As such, it feels a little like cutting your nose to spite your face - we end up with a far less comprehensive game, confusingly spread over releases, and a not insignificant barrier to entry which I think will harm the long term prospects of the game and how it continues to be followed by the community.
I suspect that the release model is dictated more by development and production limits within Specialist Games - they design and build what they can in a quarter and then release it - rather than a knowledge and fear of the few hundred guys who were still playing Epic globally, and in some sort of plucky Robin Hood-like scenario were going to undercut the global wargaming behemoth that is GW.
This is the same reason we won't see a 40k and significant Xenos expansion for the game - production and design bottleneck of a few guys working in Specialist Games that are having to do everything, and don't even have time to playtest what they are releasing before they are moved on to the next book/release.
So happy to see the Sabres come in at 120ptsfor 4 and the Termie/dread formation looks interesting. I dont see how Termites are an improvement over pods though, am I missing something?
ingtaer wrote: So happy to see the Sabres come in at 120ptsfor 4 and the Termie/dread formation looks interesting. I dont see how Termites are an improvement over pods though, am I missing something?
You get 10 for each box instead of 4 like the pods for starters
Legion Sabre Strike Tank Squadron, Termite Assault Drills, and Leman Russ Exterminator and Annihilator Squadron are going on preorder this week. These LI releases are picking it's good to see.
ingtaer wrote: So happy to see the Sabres come in at 120ptsfor 4 and the Termie/dread formation looks interesting. I dont see how Termites are an improvement over pods though, am I missing something?
You get 10 for each box instead of 4 like the pods for starters
I was thinking rules wise as I get them for 30ml of resin...
Matrindur wrote: And still no sight of the Knight/Titan Battlegroups.
Only two more weeks for the one year anniversary of their announcement
At this point I think those will just release around the usual November holidays slot, which is likely when they were originally planned last year.
I still reckon that the next book will be themed around knights:
* Molech would be a suitable setting they've already explored in AT * They'll do plastic mechanicum Styrix / Atrapos knights, whose box art has existed since launch. Perhaps armigers too.
* That ties into opposing kits for heavy firepower like Sicaran Venators or Fellblades (the former is shown in the Tallarn book)
* It would lead neatly into a full Mechanicum faction
Dropping a discount knight box just after an expansion that focuses on knights also makes sense.
With Kill Team finally sorting itself out, the introduction of proper Knight forces would really make 2024 a special year for me. C'mon GW, just do the sensible thing...
For those who prefer to fight their galaxy-spanning conflicts on a more epic scale, there’s a major reveal just over the darkening horizon– but we can’t speculate on that quite yet.
In the stream they also talked about other factions like Mechanicum, Custodes and Sisters of Silence for LI
Fascinating. Adding the generally extremely short-ranged (to complement the limits of their anti-psyker auras) SoS to a game of long ranged combat with no psykers.
Does this imply psychic abilities are coming to the Epic battlefield?
Also to clarify now that I rewatched the bit again what they said was:
Its our long term ambition that anything for the full scale HH will be coming for LI so we're likely to be doing that for many years yet. Theres other factions to explore too. There's Mechanicum, Custodes and Sisters of Silence that we could do in the future as we come to it. But the big job initially is to fill out the Sm and SA range. That's what we are doing for the next few years.
So likely no additional factions in the near future. They could just be holding back information but even then I only expect Mechanicum anytime soon and in year at the earliest
General Kroll wrote: Big reveal is surely the next book. Hopefully it finally contains formations for fielding knight households.
This has got to happen, as the Titan and Knight bundles are now a year late after their announcement. Surely they can't sit in the warehouse for much longer...
Mr_Rose wrote: Fascinating. Adding the generally extremely short-ranged (to complement the limits of their anti-psyker auras) SoS to a game of long ranged combat with no psykers.
My immediate thought was they would be folded into the Custodes' list.
RazorEdge wrote: What is missing for the Space Marine Range except Super Heavies and Primarchs.
Arquitor, Whirlwind Scorpius, Sicaran Venator, Typhon, and Vindicator are already in full-scale plastic, so are likely in the pipeline for LI. There's also a chance to see alternative Predator kits in the same style as the Russ, since the 28mm kit has many turret options available.
There's a lot of infantry & dreadnought options not covered by the current LI core kit, and some of the game rules imply units like support infantry with lascannons or plasma cannons. Perhaps those will be done as different armour marks, or maybe GW just keep everything consistently as Mk6. Personally I'd love to see more infantry sprues built around clear themes. For example a sprue with core (non-jump pack) assault squads, assault terminators, despoilers, and melee contemptors. Or a ranged sprue that focuses on support squads and ranged dreads.
Longer term, perhaps Mastodons & Stormbirds may show up.
My own thoughts are the game works well at 1.5 or 2k (with 4x4 board for 1.5k and 5x4 board for 2k). If you want to go 2.5-3k I would go for a 6x4 board, just because you have room for maneuver and it makes the game more interesting. With the caveat that if you want to field one of the bigger titans as a points sink you can go above that, but I think the game is missing the more expensive units (perhaps just getting there now with Super Heavy formations) - otherwise the setup reminds me of playing old edition Orks or IG in 40k where you had everything crammed at the back of the table.
Most of the non-official events seem to be 2 or 2.5k (I'm attending one later in the month which is 2.5k, but only two games in a day, which gives some idea of points size/playing time).
My personal preference is to collect to 3k, then play 1.5k or 2k and then you can have some variety with the type of army you field.
RazorEdge wrote: Rumors say the next Book will be Molech.
Do you think we get new Models and Rules for the Knights Households?
The Solar Auxillia Range seems like to be completed?
Releases thus far haven't tallied too closely to the theme of the book (Astartes Fast Attack for Titandeath, for example), but it wouldn't surprise me to see the Mechanicus Knights and Acastus Knights arrive in plastic alongside a book about the Battle of Molech. Molech involved the Sons and Horus and Death Guard, so likely to see some Formations of Legend for those two at least.
Outstanding Solar Auxilia include the rotor cannons and volkite* Storm Sections, Hermes and Hermes Veletaris Light Sentinels, and Medical sections. Those would all fit on one sprue.
Where did you hear the rumour, out of interest?
* There are two on the infantry sprue, but no rules for dedicated volkite stands as yet.
RazorEdge wrote: Do you think we get new Models and Rules for the Knights Households?
The Solar Auxillia Range seems like to be completed?
Solar mainly need another infantry sprue to cover the remaining plastic 28mm options. The Aurox & Carnodon are also possible, but those kinda overlap with the existing tanks and might wait a while until the larger scale versions are nearer to a plastic version too.
One notable absence since the launch of the game is the box artwork for the Atrapos / Syrix / Magaera knights included in the main rulebook. I assume that means they will eventually get the Arvus resin->plastic treatment, hopefully alongside Armigers. This is also a release GW will probably want to push out before moving onto Mechanicum.
A Molech book themed around Knight household rules, also containing heavier space marine units like tank destroyers / Glaive / Fellblade, and released alongside plastic knights & the battleforce box would neatly tie up a lot of gaps in the LI range.
In GW's marketing article about recreating the big battles in Legions Imperialis, the battles listed are Isstvan III, Tallarn, Isstvan V, Molech and Beta-Garmon. Obviously not a confirmation or anything, but the fact GW see it as one of the key battles means it's not quite tinfoil hat territory to expect an expansion. Note also that Tallarn and Beta-Garmon are the two settings for the existing expansion books.
Molech is the best option to feature Knights. The linked article emphasises Ultramarines and Blood Angels (though the novel makes it clear there were fewer than 500 loyalist Marines in total), and I think it unlikely GW will release an expansion without Loyalist Marines. With that said, I'd hope they'd make more of the Knights in particular here. We had an all-Titan mode in Beta-Garmon, and an all-tank mode in Tallarn, so an all-Knight mode would be a fair guess, I think.
chaos0xomega wrote: Isn't the all-knight mode the same as the all-titan mode?
Depends, it could just a new game mode that encourages knight lists in a similar way to the Tallarn rules favours tank-based lists.
There's also nothing really stopping them from adding Knight households as a new Primary Army option, with their own formations and list building requirements. I'm sure that can be done in a way that doesn't skew the game to the degree that an all-Titan force would.
I'm not entirely sure if I read the Molech rumors here on Dakkadakka or B&C..., or on another place...
They could expand Knight Hosehoulds with something like "Household Infantry".
What is also missing from the Solar Auxiliar - AA-Tanks.
Rules for the Aurox APC would be a nice oportunity to use Rhinos on them, like older Background mentioned Rhinos during the Great Crusade as "not Astartes only".
A interesting "Formation of Legend" would be that Blood Angels Dettachment on Molech with arrount less than 1000 Marines.
Molech is the best option to feature Knights. The linked article emphasises Ultramarines and Blood Angels (though the novel makes it clear there were fewer than 500 loyalist Marines in total), and I think it unlikely GW will release an expansion without Loyalist Marines. With that said, I'd hope they'd make more of the Knights in particular here. We had an all-Titan mode in Beta-Garmon, and an all-tank mode in Tallarn, so an all-Knight mode would be a fair guess, I think.
Note that GW can always change the background. Remember how back in the day the battle for Istvaan V was only Marines? Now it has Titans and Imperial Army (Solar Auxilia?) formations as well. I can imagine that Molech could be changed in that regard to suit the product placement needs of the studio
I’m really hoping we start to see some bigger stuff in the next year or so. After all, 28mm isn’t practical for much bigger than a Baneblade (and even then they’re perhaps pushing it). But Epic? Go for it.
It will be interesting, when the Mechanicum gets an 8mm release, if they introduce anything truly new (or even reimagined old stuff like the named ordinatus).
I’ll be disappointed if they limit themselves to only the stuff that they have available in the 28 mm game.
I hope they bring back the capitol Imperialis while they are at it.
I’d expect the first two or three waves to follow suit, and be debigulated existing stuff, hopefully with fancier toys to come later.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, from a Grumpy Grognard point of view not-quite-a-grump as “not so far” doesn’t mean “never”?
The original incarnations of Epic expanded the lore of 40K massively. Simply put, and supported by GW staff interviews on YouTube? The tiny scale allowed them to create a far wider variety of arms and armour than 28mm allowed at a time when your plastic vehicles were the Rhino, Predator, Land Raider and Battlewagon.
And so it brought us….pretty much everything else we take for granted now. All the Imperial Guard Tanks (the Chimera debuting in Titan Legions, and being an adaptation of the Basilisk chassis), Eldar tanks, Orky tanks and so on and so forth. All born in Epic, before eventually being brought into 40K years later.
And that’s kinda what I want to see Legions Imperialis explore. Of course, modern GW is a very different beast, and an awful lot of stuff is now available without ever having existed in Epic before. But there is still room for “all new, all tiny” stuff to debut in due course.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Now I think of it? The Heavy Sentinel is our first example of that. Only a very modest start, but we have to recognise it absolutely is a start.
Hmm, MDG touches on a good point there; I don't know that GW is necessarily interested in making new 30k stuff in either size given there's already so much on the wishlist, but then... the sentinels are new, after all. If LI is primarily aiming for the nostalgia market (which may or may not be the case) I'd think Ordinatii and that ilk are more likely than entirely new designs.
semajnollissor wrote: It will be interesting, when the Mechanicum gets an 8mm release, if they introduce anything truly new (or even reimagined old stuff like the named ordinatus).
I’ll be disappointed if they limit themselves to only the stuff that they have available in the 28 mm game.
I hope they bring back the capitol Imperialis while they are at it.
Best to mentally prepare oneself for disappointment…
TBF neither the Dire Wolf nor the missile and melts options for the Warhound exist in 28mm scale, and neither does the Warmaster so they aren’t averse to adding big things like that…
Honestly the scale of the game should make GW more prone to creating new/rare/larger things that just won't ever appear in 40K. The only barrier might be a manager refusing to let them do that incase "customers will want it for HH scale and we can't do that" attitudes
Overread wrote: Honestly the scale of the game should make GW more prone to creating new/rare/larger things that just won't ever appear in 40K. The only barrier might be a manager refusing to let them do that incase "customers will want it for HH scale and we can't do that" attitudes
I'm sure these things will come someday in the future but I'm also sure they will want to finish nearly everything else first. So while it would make sense to release Ordinatus for Mechanicus when they get introduced I wouldn't expect them until most of the rest of the army exists in epic scale.
Also while that isn't exactly the same situation, that argument didn't stop them from releasing new planes for Aeronautica that never got a 28mm version
I’m really hoping we start to see some bigger stuff in the next year or so. After all, 28mm isn’t practical for much bigger than a Baneblade (and even then they’re perhaps pushing it). But Epic? Go for it.
100 times this - there is really an opportunity to do some absolutely amazing stuff that 28mm scale won't allow. I would like to see what GW managed to do last time with Epic, and then go further as the production technologies are so much better now. The only caveat is that Legions isn't a 'main' game in the same way Epic Space Marine and Epic 40,000 were, and so must be getting much fewer resources than those games had in the past. That might be the ultimate limiting factor.
Well, I like to think of it as “isn’t a main game, yet”.
It has a tonne of potential, and for my money the best ever sculpts its scale has ever seen.
To give a more appropriately scaled Capitol Imperialis, or equivalents, larger Space Marine landers/flyers, Ordinatus Majoris, more varied Knights (c’mon quadruped!) and so on? The scope and potential is absolutely there.
I know that compared to the 1st and 2nd Ed all the weapon traits and special rules seem a lot, but they’re not as bad as you might first think. Light, Light AT and Anti-Tank are easy enough because they’re so common. They also provide greater design space in an otherwise nicely straight forward “roll to hit, modify save, save if you can” system.
I’d have preferred Titans to be the old step apart with hit locations and different damage process, but we can’t have everything.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Especially the Ordinatus Majoris, which were originally singular creations of a demented genius, figuring out just how big a gun you can stick on treads.
The Sagittar and Ullator could be done in squadrons, even. Because why not! Not to mention bring further variants.
A quad-legged Knights would be interesting; A small one als "APC" for Knights Hosehould Infantry, or a super Heavy "Turtle" like Kinight with smaller weapons and slow but very hzeavy armoured.
Epic Scale seems to feel right for the Horus Heresy (or the Creat Crusade) as those Settings are told to have many "Epic" Battles.
I think it's clear that GW needs to do something, I'm more excited for armoured clash and epic warpath, games from companies who's past offerings didn't really do anything for me at all, than I am for LI.
vadersson wrote: Let’s be honest, rules need tightened up some first. I think that is rapidly becoming the biggest issue with LI now that minis are more available.
I haven't picked up any material for LI yet, so I'm asking blind - which bits of the rules do you think need focus first?
The main issues with the game right now are the lack of balance leaning towards infantry, some loadout options being pointless, and the objectives/scoring system being pretty awful.
But, I think AT started off quite badly from a missions/objectives perspective so hopefully if they start getting some feedback from events and the like (which are now changing how those work) hopefully that will feed into a new book.
It has a tonne of potential, and for my money the best ever sculpts its scale has ever seen.
.
Yes definitely, the minis are exceptional. I'd love to see it become one of the main games, but not sure GW themselves see it as that. I think the last two (or even three) White Dwarves haven't even mentioned the game, and rules-wise it is probably one of the least easily accessible games GW has made in some time. But maybe enough of the minis sell (which I think lots of people get without ever playing a game) then who knows?
Not at all. Kill Team, Warcry, and Ynderworlds are not specialist/forgeworld games, those are products out of a different studio that shares resources with the main studio (and may at this point be part of it) and develops minis that are compatible with the main game.
That's not HH or LI. HH itself is a subgame w it's own bespoke miniatures kine, LI is a subgame of a subgame with it's own bespoke miniatures on top of it.
I know that's probably a pedantic level of nuance, but it matters in the context of understanding where LI actually sits in the hierarchy of things and why it gets so little support relatively speaking.
vadersson wrote: Let’s be honest, rules need tightened up some first. I think that is rapidly becoming the biggest issue with LI now that minis are more available.
I haven't picked up any material for LI yet, so I'm asking blind - which bits of the rules do you think need focus first?
They started with a good base from SM2, but they made a lot of changes without thinking of the impact. Ranges are generally shorter, while infantry can move 3x base. Point scoring is progressive, but switching control of objectives is hard. Infantry can melee everything with no saves, so even the largest tanks can be swamped down easily. Some weapon loads have costs, some don’t. And some weapons choices are clearly superior to others with no down side.
Don’t get me wrong, the games has great bones, but it needs some errata or faqs to clarify and correct a few things. But that is also an issue, we only got an early FAQ and never heard anything since.
I would Veletaris with volkite chargers, Solar troopers with jump pack (but not light Sentinels, I don't like them), one another sprue for Imperial Militia and so on.
I think this will never happen.
GW will do tanks, bigger tanks and titans, Custodes and Sisters, maybe new Astartes infantry better sculpted with another Teminator variant and another armour mark. Gw's agenda is too full I think to cover all 28mm range.
pity they didn't essentially remake the 1st edition "Space Marine" frame, the one with the bikes, speeders, terminators, assault, command etc on it. just with more individual poses
I'd love more variation in infantry but I'm not seeing it, at this scale they really are just tokens and there are plenty of alternatives.
I do hope at some point to see rules for more varied infantry, stuff that can be the same bods but with different rules, or slightly different rules - maybe breachers with a CAF bonus or something for assaulting buildings. its going to be marginal though
perhaps one specialist unit per legion (even if in FW resin)
we will get more armour, that seems to be the ficus GW have decided upon
you want infantry? 30k & 40k, this is a game for "big things" etc
.Mikes. wrote: I know lots of people want to see xenos races, and me too, but I REALLY want to see what they'd do with a Tyranid Dominatrix with modern designing.
I'd love to see Tyranids but I don't expect them for a decade at best.
The best thing would be not just seeing classic models but actually having a scale of game where GW could create new ideas. The Imperium has a LOT of titans; Orks and Eldar each have a respectable number. Chaos has a good many of its own design as well (that aren't just Imperial with a different insignia).
Tyranids, Tau, Necrons, Dark Eldar (I don't think they have any that aren't a craftworld with insignia) oh and the Votaan - all have a huge amount of scope for titanic models
I still think we are going to get more infantry kits like the current infantry sprue but swap the MK6 Tacticals for others armour marks and the special units for other units.
So for example 8 bases of MK3 like the current set but then Breachers, Tartarus Terminators and more heavy weapons instead of the Assault Marines, Catapractii, Plasma and ML.
Then another set with 8 bases of MKIV with Recon Marines, Despoilers and more special weapons as the extra units
Yup I think so too. They are not going to re-cover areas of ground that they have already released for, especially when there is so much else that will be covered. But we do know vehicle boxes are released with just turret weapon changes, so in that respect MK3 breachers, MK4 despoilers etc feels more likely, as part of another single 'Legion specialist' sprue/boxset
chaos0xomega wrote:My personal hope is we get infantry kits for the other armor mks, certain legions I just don't want to do in mk6
I agree certain Legions and settings don't work as well with mk6. This is a Crusade-era force of Death Guard I did. If you don't want to wait for something that quite possibly won't ever arrive, there are a number of alternatives out there, very reasonably priced and you don't need a printer.
Does anyone else think flamers should give vehicles +1 CAF? Like the whole point of them is keeping infantry at sufficient standoff to prevent stuff like melts bombs being used.
So trying to guess the sprue break down the Astartes Battlegroups had 1 Infantry set, 1 Support set, 1 Fast Attack set, 1 Rhino (Transport) set and 1 Kratos (big Tank) set. The Auxilia Battlegroup had 1 Infantry, 1 Support, 1 Dracoson (Transport), 1 Leman Russ set (small Tank) and 1 Super Heavy set (big Tank)
Based on this the Mechanicum box should also have 5 individual kits. The Triaros should be the Transport set and the Thanatar should be the equivalent to the big tank sets from the other Battlegroups. I'm guessing the Tech-Priest Auxilia, Tech-Thralls, Thallax and Myrmidons of both types and the Domitars are the Infantry set, not sure about the Domitar but the others also have the Contemptor/Sentinel inside so would make sense and they are all grouped together in the image. The Arlatax, Vorax, Castellax and Ursarax could be the Support set equivalent as a "robot" set and the Archmagos is probably part of this set since the Infantry set would be pretty big if he is part of that one. That leaves the Vultarax for the last set but only two of those would be pretty small so maybe they are part of the Support bot set and the 8x Thanatars are instead 2x sets of 4x Thanatars for the final 5x sets? Either that or the Vultarax and Vorax are a set together since the text above says these two range ahead of the main force so a Fast Attack equivalent box?
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Very interested to see their Formations, Detachments and how the Sprues in that big box breakdown to individual releases.
Me too. So far these battleforces have had 5 individual boxes in.
This one looks like 1 Triaros box, 2 regular infantry boxes, and either 1 or 2 boxes of 'support' units like automata.
Mainly I'm curious what else will accompany the first wave of Mechanicum. What would really pique my interest would be seeing some ordinatus engines...
Box is a great preview of what's to come for HH 2.0 as well, only units now missing from the line-up for AdMech in LI, from the top of my head, are the Kryoss (sp?) tank and Ordinatus engines?
Only missing Krios Tanks, Karacnos and the Scyllax (Oh, and the three ordinatus minoris engines). I wonder if they'll included bonded knights as part of the detachments and/or different Titan allowances
BrookM wrote: Box is a great preview of what's to come for HH 2.0 as well, only units now missing from the line-up for AdMech in LI, from the top of my head, are the Kryoss (sp?) tank and Ordinatus engines?
They are only missing the Scyllax Guardian-Automata but these might be too spindly for epic scale and are similar to the Servo-Automata that are included on the Tech-Priest base anyway. Also they are the only other infantry unit left. Other than them we are only missing the Karacnos and Krios Tanks. And of course the Mechanicum Knights that are resin only right now
So if they also release the Krios and Karacnos individually at the same time which wouldn't even be that unreasonable, we would have the full army in a single release which would be pretty amazing
And of course the Ordinatus but I don't expect them just yet. I'm predicting all those very big models will still take a bit before they are released and when they are they will basically be the DLC releases for each faction after the actual army is finished
BrookM wrote: Box is a great preview of what's to come for HH 2.0 as well, only units now missing from the line-up for AdMech in LI, from the top of my head, are the Kryoss (sp?) tank and Ordinatus engines?
They are only missing the Scyllax Guardian-Automata but these might be too spindly for epic scale and are similar to the Servo-Automata that are included on the Tech-Priest base anyway. Also they are the only other infantry unit left.
Other than them we are only missing the Karacnos and Krios Tanks. And of course the Mechanicum Knights that are resin only right now
So if they also release the Krios and Karacnos individually at the same time which wouldn't even be that unreasonable, we would have the full army in a single release which would be pretty amazing
Secutarii Hoplites and Peltasts I've just remembered
Secutarii Hoplites and Peltasts I've just remembered
Kinda but those aren't really normal Mechanicum in HH, instead part of the Titan Legions specifically. So while I would be happy to see them and it would make sense I would still call it a completed release even if they don't release them now and isntead leave them for whenever they come around to the Mechanicum Knights
BrookM wrote: Box is a great preview of what's to come for HH 2.0 as well, only units now missing from the line-up for AdMech in LI, from the top of my head, are the Kryoss (sp?) tank and Ordinatus engines?
They are only missing the Scyllax Guardian-Automata but these might be too spindly for epic scale and are similar to the Servo-Automata that are included on the Tech-Priest base anyway. Also they are the only other infantry unit left.
Other than them we are only missing the Karacnos and Krios Tanks. And of course the Mechanicum Knights that are resin only right now
So if they also release the Krios and Karacnos individually at the same time which wouldn't even be that unreasonable, we would have the full army in a single release which would be pretty amazing
It’s how few units this boxed set leaves that gets me most excited.
We’ve never had proper Mechanicum/Mechanicus in Epic scale before, and despite their Forgeworld roots? Epic is the natural home of wild and wacky macro-constructs. From Ordinatus Minoris to Majoris to bonkers Automata? Now is the time for GW to get super creative.
Looking at the set further, I really wonder if this battleforce is only 3-4 regular boxes rather than the usual 5. Most of the detachments only work out to two sprues worth and can't divide into the four needed if the kits were doubled up.
I could see this actually being less than the £110 rrp of the previous battleforces.
Oddly, Mechanicum dont have very many tanks in 28mm. They do have them (Triaros, Karacnos, Krio and if they ever redo it, the Explorator thingy). Instead it’s mostly focussed on Automata, and play like a cross between Nids and Classic Undead.
Of course, as I mentioned above? Epic is the home of New Tank Innovation. Always has been. Outside of the Rhino, Predator, Land Raider and Ork Battlewagon, Epic gave us the rest.
Yeah when 32mm tanks are a big investment per tank and Mechanicum was all resin for a long while there just wasn't room to add loads and loads of tanks (esp when IG were kind of already doing that so Mechanicum needed its own niche).
But LI you can add tanks really easily so we should see potentially a lot more for them.
chaos0xomega wrote: The only thing offputting about that box is that it's very infantry heavy for a game that seems to be focused on tanks and superheavies
The game is mechanically very, very heavily lopsided in favor of infantry. Superheavy units in particular are utterly trounced by ground-pounders, expensive and fragile as they are. Any vehicle-focus is due to cool factor (as massed formations of tanks *are* cool and the scale allows them to actually work on the table) or, as with Fog of War and Titandeath, GW attempting to push out game modes where it's not necessarily the by-default-win-button to flood the table with infantry.
Hopefully the Krios will come out soon after, I need a bunch of those to supplement my existing AdMech forces.
BrookM wrote: Box is a great preview of what's to come for HH 2.0 as well, only units now missing from the line-up for AdMech in LI, from the top of my head, are the Kryoss (sp?) tank and Ordinatus engines?
They are only missing the Scyllax Guardian-Automata but these might be too spindly for epic scale and are similar to the Servo-Automata that are included on the Tech-Priest base anyway. Also they are the only other infantry unit left.
Other than them we are only missing the Karacnos and Krios Tanks. And of course the Mechanicum Knights that are resin only right now
So if they also release the Krios and Karacnos individually at the same time which wouldn't even be that unreasonable, we would have the full army in a single release which would be pretty amazing
Secutarii Hoplites and Peltasts I've just remembered
Holy cow, I am not sure I believe it yet! I really hope it is real, but just seems like too much. The molding and tooling cost would be a huge investment. I just hope the rules get improved. I will be all over these if true.
xttz wrote: Looking at the set further, I really wonder if this battleforce is only 3-4 regular boxes rather than the usual 5. Most of the detachments only work out to two sprues worth and can't divide into the four needed if the kits were doubled up.
I could see this actually being less than the £110 rrp of the previous battleforces.
Further speculation:
Two sprues of infantry
Two sprues of automata
Two sprues of Thanatar (4 each with 2 different armaments, similar to several tank kits)
Two sprues of 2 Triaros (like spartans)
That's equivalent to four typical LI kits. Assuming a similar discount to other battleforces, best case scenario would be around £90 retail.
Also this box covers a solid majority of the current 28mm unit roster for HH. Aside from things like named characters & Secutarii it pretty much only leaves:
Karacnos / Krios / Ordinatus (and possibly the Macrocarid if it ever gets resurrected from Legends)
Presumably Mechanicum knights in plastic will help to pad out future releases at some point.
When this Set gets revealed, they 100% announced the next Expansion Book with it. Mechanicum Knights could come too as a seperate Release, also the Arminger maybe.
I think we get the following Units as seperate releases.
I like the thought of Daemons being the next army release for both 30K and LI, as it would be visually different from what we've had so far. 30K does have them already but the range of kits is so tiny and FW releases only.
Just a thought that's popped into my head, but I like the idea of an Emperors Children force supported by House Devine and some Daemons that include a Not-Balrog and those darling little Brutes. If they do add Fulgrim to Legions Imperialis that might be something I'm interested in.
SamusDrake wrote: I like the thought of Daemons being the next army release for both 30K and LI, as it would be visually different from what we've had so far. 30K does have them already but the range of kits is so tiny and FW releases only.
Just a thought that's popped into my head, but I like the idea of an Emperors Children force supported by House Devine and some Daemons that include a Not-Balrog and those darling little Brutes. If they do add Fulgrim to Legions Imperialis that might be something I'm interested in.
Next faction will likely be Custodes (and SoS) since they have more stuff in HH and they already have a single model for LI (even if its just a plane from AI)
But after that we have all the faction that have big model ranges in HH so its up for Daemons next.
But then again it will likely take another year for the next faction just like it took a year for Mechanicum so I wouldn't expect Daemons until 2026
I mean, it launched with two factions, each of which now have a decent, if for Astartes still incomplete, range of options. And that’s based on what I’m assuming is a relatively conservative initial release slate.
I see no reason they couldn’t do Custodes/Sisters of Silence and Daemons in a year. Neither exactly have a great many kits to them. Same for Mechanicum, as this boxed set alone leaves maybe half a dozen existing units unseen (but not necessarily unsculpted).
I mean, it launched with two factions, each of which now have a decent, if for Astartes still incomplete, range of options. And that’s based on what I’m assuming is a relatively conservative initial release slate.
I see no reason they couldn’t do Custodes/Sisters of Silence and Daemons in a year. Neither exactly have a great many kits to them. Same for Mechanicum, as this boxed set alone leaves maybe half a dozen existing units unseen (but not necessarily unsculpted).
They also relaunched the full range of titans and knights, so along with the terrain it was quite a lot to release within a year.
I mean, it launched with two factions, each of which now have a decent, if for Astartes still incomplete, range of options. And that’s based on what I’m assuming is a relatively conservative initial release slate.
I see no reason they couldn’t do Custodes/Sisters of Silence and Daemons in a year. Neither exactly have a great many kits to them. Same for Mechanicum, as this boxed set alone leaves maybe half a dozen existing units unseen (but not necessarily unsculpted).
Thats true, if they keep up the same number of releases as last year Custodes and Daemons would easily fit into a single year together with additional kits for SA/SM. But that's assuming the number of releases stays the same which I don't think will be the case. The first year needed that many releases since its a new game in a completely new scale but the same isn't necessarily true for the future. Of course I don't want less releases, I just wouldn't expect as many as we got until now. And then both Custodes and Daemons in one year becomes less likely, especially since we also have to fit in more SM/SA and probably Mechanicum
I’d still expect releases once a quarter of new stuff.
I’m not massively familiar with the 28mm Solar Auxilia, but I think they’re rapidly getting into “never before seen” territory in terms of possible additions. Astartes still need the Vindicator, Scorpius, Cerberus, Typhon, Sicaran Venator, Mastodon, Glaive, Kharybdis, Dreadclaw, Falchion, Fellblade and Arquitor to name but a few. Oh, and a Stormbird.
So there’s plenty of toys we’re told are all coming in dinky plastic, so a while to go yet.
Another aspect is how the team behind the game and marketing are going to sell it compared to HH regular.
We might well see SoS held back until GW can do them in tandem even though the 32mm would take longer and cost more to bring to market than their LI versions.
Hard to imagine what SoS would even bring to the game as their ability is pointless, so one ranged unit, one stabby and a tank? With stats on a par with SA. Seems pointless.
ingtaer wrote: Hard to imagine what SoS would even bring to the game as their ability is pointless, so one ranged unit, one stabby and a tank? With stats on a par with SA. Seems pointless.
In theory the HH era could flesh them out a lot lot more with a much bigger unit roster than they currently have.
Also interested to see how they interact with Orders.
As is Tradition, Astartes have pretty free reign to assign what you want to which unit you want, whereas Auxilia follow in the footsteps of Imperial Guard, you have a chain of command, which if the opponent can break, or you’ve not thought out through deployment and movement, can leave parts of your army limited options.
In 2nd Ed, Eldar were a right sod, as provided you maintained a web of Farseers and Warlocks, you assigned your orders after your opponent had revealed their own. Needless to say with alternating activation and the order system combined, that could be a serious advantage.
Orks? Their perk came from the support cards bought alongside a Mob would add to the overall break point, making it harder to break enemy units and score VPs.
chaos0xomega wrote: There's an entire army of payers (thousand sons), they just don't have corresponding rules.
Do order sinister titans have LI rules? Might be an indication of how they handle SoS
Yeah but the only special rule the Warlord-Sinister Battle Titan has is the Dread Aura which is -1 Morale within 8". It also has Necrotechnica which lets it regain wounds but that is more owed to forbidden Mechanicum Tech.
But the Dread Aura does give hints that more units are supposed to have it since its written as Dread Aura (X) where X is the range which doesn't really make sense if the Sinister is the only user and the Word Bearers also ignore it which would be pretty useless that way.
So they might just give all SoS units Dread Aura? Would make sense since their aura is generally described as unsettling to others? So just a general debuff instead of Psyker focused.
There is also the Psi weapon keyword that ignores Invulnerable, Cover, Ion and Void Saves so they might also be immune to that? Either get a special save they can still use in this case or just a general immunity to weapons with Psi. But again the Sinister is the only unit with Psi weapons
Matrindur wrote: So LI just got announced as getting reveals for Warhammer Day which makes me thin we won't see this until then.
I don't think they have enough else for a Warhammer day slot if they show Mechanicum this Thursday
Keep saying it, they already told us the melee weapons was up first lol.
Goddammit I fact checked myself out the race
"Leading the charge will be a long sought-after weapons kit, which we’ll be revealing in the coming weeks." The mention of heresy Thursday is a different point
Whoa! I'm pretty cynical about GW's side games (and LI didn't really land for me despite initially being very hyped, but mainly because it seemed like, even with the very limited Only Humans HH setting, they didn't make different Astartes subfactions actually have any reason not to mix and match) but this mech release is fantastic. And since they never had a notable official range of releases, it feels somewhat fresher than the Astartes and Auxilia since we've previously had Space Marines and Imperial Guard.
I suspect it will be a campaign book that heavily features the Admech and introduces them as a faction, plus will still add a unit or two for existing collectors "here are the Legions and Solar units that fought against/with them in the campaign on the planet Wibbelywang"
Pacific wrote: I suspect it will be a campaign book that heavily features the Admech and introduces them as a faction, plus will still add a unit or two for existing collectors "here are the Legions and Solar units that fought against/with them in the campaign on the planet Wibbelywang"
I'm expecting a LI version of the Martian Civil War book that HH just got, with the Astartes element focused on the Retrieve the armour plot and Solar Aux as maybe helping hold the line with the loyalists on mars.
RazorEdge wrote: I expect the next Book for LI is Mechanicum only, without any new Stuff for Marines and Auxillia...
Once you add kits for the Krios, Karacnos, and possibly Ordinatus engines the LI range covers pretty much everything of note from the current 28mm roster*. Beyond that GW pretty much have to introduce new units.
I see basically two ways GW can do this faction launch:
1) Include the vehicles in the next book and 'complete' the Mechanicum range for now. With around 8-10 total kits that would fulfill the typical two release waves that accompany an LI supplement, and keeps Mechanicum rules contained into one book.
2) With the next supplement they release some token kits that non-Mechanicum players might want to buy like marine tanks or plastic Mechanicum knights, and stretch out Mechanicum into two books by keeping the vehicles back for supplement #4.
Place your bets now!
*except for named characters, Secutarii, and OOP things like the Macrocarid
MajorWesJanson wrote: I'm expecting a LI version of the Martian Civil War book that HH just got, with the Astartes element focused on the Retrieve the armour plot and Solar Aux as maybe helping hold the line with the loyalists on mars.
Yeah. This makes sense. Mostly AdMech, but with a little something for everyone.
I think They are going to focus on Mechanicum and SM for the next few waves.
Solar Auxilia was basically finished during the first year only missing the Aurox and maybe the Carnodon and then little things like additional weapons for Velatarii.
That could also be a reason why SA got all their Super Heavies while SM still have none, because they wanted to "finish" that faction for now while SM are always going to get support.
Now for the second year they are starting Mechanicum while SM keep getting support and when Mechanicum is mostly finished the next faction would get released.
Of course that doesn't mean a faction won't get releases anymore after their phase is over as I said above SA could still get the Aurox, Carnodon and weapon options but I think the general release plan of releasing 1 faction until it is mostly finished and then starting the next while releasing SM alongside them throughout wouldn't be unexpected.
And just for the initial book I could even see Mechanicum only as it would be alot of units compared to how many have been in the previous books
That’s definitely possible, and in terms of Debigulated 28mm kits, an accurate summary.
But…epic is the Mother of Invention here. So there’s still opportunity to expand Solar Auxilia going forward. So whilst agreeing with Matrindur, I suspect it’s a “that’s it, for now”, and not an overall “that’s it”
I'm guessing that marine and solar will be all-aircraft formations for the new book, with the intention of being used as allied support for both Mechanicum and Houses.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: That’s definitely possible, and in terms of Debigulated 28mm kits, an accurate summary.
But…epic is the Mother of Invention here. So there’s still opportunity to expand Solar Auxilia going forward. So whilst agreeing with Matrindur, I suspect it’s a “that’s it, for now”, and not an overall “that’s it”
Yeah its for sure not going to be it for SA as they can invent anything for them especially in the larger compartment but that is probably still a way out.
Its also why I wouldn't expect the Ordinatus yet as I think those really big things like them or the Capitol Imperialis if they bring it back as a SA unit or the Stormbird for SM will come later with another round of releases for everybody.
So first a round of "that's it for now" to get every factions to the level of normal 28mm armies and then another round with the unusual things you wouldn't normally be able to see in 28mm
I’d never say never. But, debigulating say, a Reaver Titan, compared to resizographing a Capitol Imperialis isn’t the same thing.
Could you do a commerical, 28mm Capitol Imperialis kit? Sure. But in the materials GW work in? I don’t know, but am somewhat doubtful, as I suspect flexing is going to be an issue unless the plastic or resin is really thick.
Plus, sizeable, relatively unadorned armoured slabs have a very different aesthetic appeal between the two range sizes. What looks large and impressive in 8mm or whatever it is, could just look plain and boring in 28mm. Not to mention practicality of deployment and movement in 28mm.
Smaller stuff? Yes. I would expect if not demand any Epic First tanks up to an including Baneblade chassis size to be Resizographed into 28mm in the end.
Yeah, a Capitol Imperialis is nearly a Kill Team board all on its own in 28mm scale. In fact, fighting to board and capture one would probably make an excellent scenario.
Though I do recall some madmen have actually made “miniatures” of them for Apocalypse games. They even had rules around 3rd/4th edition.
Maybe I'm wishlisting because of my obvious bias, but it occurs to me that new Titans are also something they could still sell to players of any of these LI factions (and us AT players).
They still have the Rapier Scout Titan and the (Carnivore?) Reaver-Warhound 'tweener Titan as possible releases, as well as psi-versions of other Titan classes. You can't tell me those wouldn't sell, and they're something they could easily tack onto any new upcoming LI supplement. Dunno that it'll happen, of course.
As Titans can, so far, only really be taken as allies and thus face a firm points cap under standard rules? There’s definitely design room for different sizes of Titan.
But, as we’ve seen with Adeptus Titanicus, I wouldn’t expect them to have anything like the flexibility of loadout seen in the Warhound, Reaver and Warlord.
Those core three are you “Tactical” Titans. Those who you can tailor to your preferred strategy.
The others? Much more specific niches. Still deadly, but typically deadly at only a couple of things, preserving the appeal of the classic three chassis.
Wouldn't an Imperator Titan, with its transport capacity, be more suited to LI than to AT (provided something is done for support points limit anyway) ?
CorwinB wrote: Wouldn't an Imperator Titan, with its transport capacity, be more suited to LI than to AT (provided something is done for support points limit anyway) ?
While I don't think we'll see an Imperator any time soon, it is certainly possible.
With GW's recommended points limit of 3000pts and an ally limit of 30% you can have 1000pts of Titans. The Warmaster is only 750pts so theoretically there is space for an even bigger titan while still staying within the boundaries they set
The "illustrations" in that Book show some Stuff, we not have in the Game:
-Predator with Plasmagun
-Felbade with Volkite Weapon
-Assault Marines in Mk4 Armour
I also noticed some of the "Box Cover" Illustration in that Book feature Tanks, we already have but not in Death Guard Colors, like on every Box. I found in the Book:
Predator Tanks in White Scars Colors
Sicaran Tanks in Iron Warriors Colors
The "illustrations" in that Book show some Stuff, we not have in the Game:
-Predator with Plasmagun
-Felbade with Volkite Weapon
-Assault Marines in Mk4 Armour
I also noticed some of the "Box Cover" Illustration in that Book feature Tanks, we already have but not in Death Guard Colors, like on every Box. I found in the Book:
Predator Tanks in White Scars Colors
Sicaran Tanks in Iron Warriors Colors
The recolors should just be digital recolors without much meaning.
For the other three unless I'm missing which images you are talking about, they shouldn't mean upcoming units since they aren't in the boxart style.
I think you are talking about:
-Assault Marines in Mk4 Armour - pg53 - 28mm models
-Felbade with Volkite Weapon - pg90 - Glaive tank, again very likely just old artwork of 28mm model
-Predator with Plasmagun - didn't find this one
schoon wrote: An Imperator would likely be game breaking in any of the current GW systems.
It would look awesome doing it though!
If I were designing these games then it would fall under Adeptus Titanicus as that is the game designed specifically for Titans and Knights. If it can't support a Titan, or Knight, then GW has failed in the game's development and needs a second edition, which goes as far back as the early requirements stage.
Although as an all-powerful super-giant in Legions they could use it's transport feature against it; a lone xenomorph infiltrated the marine dropship in ALIENS, and caused it to crash. Luke Skywalker sabotaged an Imperial Walker in Empire Strikes Back. Maybe Daemons, or a Kill Team of special operatives could board the giant and cause it problems. This would increase the value of infantry, and their transports.
Maybe a special off-board terminal, where troop units can be placed while inside the Titan? If kept lean, it could be a mini-battle within a battle! The Imperator might be overwhelmingly powerful, but easily boarded and disrupted.
When first introduced, a reliable way to take out an Imperator was to board its bastion legs, spend a turn giggling, and then boom, it had no legs.
It’s overall efficiency was also tempered by having to assign a turn to turn uncertain amount of Plasma Tokens to power up its system, including the Void Shields. If you rolled high, your opponent was in for a world of pain. Low? And it’s not gonna get an awful lot done that turn.
Personally I think GW are going to hold back on a big titan update until the game has matured a little and people have bigger model collections and start really calling for bigger model counts. Titans and Knights just need a bigger model count in the game so that you've space within the army to actually take a few reavers and warhounds and knights along with the troops and tanks they need for support. We know it can be done because the old games supported a good number of titan models alongside the regular armies and that's before you get to the old Knight House armies and such where you've just got titans on one side.
So yeah it can be done, we hope GW will do it.
An Imperator they've always said they won't do, I feel like there's nothing stopping them save the potential concern that there's some mandate or directive or objective to have HH and LI match in product scope and content. Ergo we won't see an Imperator because of such a policy and because there's no chance GW would ever sell an actual 32mm scale Imperator
Imperator and Emperor Class Titans can be problematic in-game.
If memory serves, the original was a whopping 2,250 points. And when we played at around 4,000? That meant as the opponent, my game essentially reduced to “take out that Titan, or it’s going to obliterate me”.
Now, once in a while that absolutely is good fun. And it’s far from an impossible feat. But it become such a lodestone in my or my opponents army, still something to be deployed fairly sparingly.
We are of course talking about a different game now, and there will be ways round it (having to Ally in Titans with a strict percentage cap is welcome). But it’s still a tricky thing to get Just Right.
If memory serves, the original was a whopping 2,250 points. And when we played at around 4,000? That meant as the opponent, my game essentially reduced to “take out that Titan, or it’s going to obliterate me”.
As i recall this was true for the early days of Epic. When Titan Legions released, White Dwarf upped the size of their standard games to 6000/8000pts in order to accomodate the shiny new kits.
However that Imperator was essentially a mini-game in it's own right, and with the way LI rules are written I can't see it having the same impact today.
Overread wrote: An Imperator they've always said they won't do, I feel like there's nothing stopping them save the potential concern that there's some mandate or directive or objective to have HH and LI match in product scope and content. Ergo we won't see an Imperator because of such a policy and because there's no chance GW would ever sell an actual 32mm scale Imperator
While there's clearly an intent for the HH studio to have people designing kits that work in both scales, I think that's more driven by necessity than any hard rule. GW's main goal since 2021 is to move the Heresy range away from mass-produced resin, so any models that players are likely to buy multiples of are available in plastic. It's harder to justify design time for a new epic-only titan kit when that same time can make several vehicles available to both game systems.
However GW did still put out products like additional titan weapons, epic-scale terrain, and game boards for LI that have no relevance to regular scale HH. I think that shows there's still scope for LI-only models, even if it is limited. And as they clear the resin backlog, it's more likely that we see new toys.
you pretty much had to fill it out with Tech-guard which pushed the total PV close to 3,000 (but hey! We played 10,000 points all dayers)! But it was such a beast, more than capable of weathering a low plasma roll (just overcharge the void shields to unleash hell the following round.
Note: To field bog-standard maniple of 1 Warlord, 1 Reaver and 2 Warhounds (as allies) your looking at a 5,600 point game. Something to strive for.
For the other three unless I'm missing which images you are talking about, they shouldn't mean upcoming units since they aren't in the boxart style.
I think you are talking about:
-Assault Marines in Mk4 Armour - pg53 - 28mm models
-Felbade with Volkite Weapon - pg90 - Glaive tank, again very likely just old artwork of 28mm model
-Predator with Plasmagun - didn't find this one
Even those 28mm Models from the Pseudo realistic Illustrations show Army List Option, we got for the Game.
The Predator is on the same Page as the Glaive. Showing them could means that they will come as future Army List options. I don't see the reason to use Illustrations with Stuff we will never see.
I doubt they used them just to fill up the Pages - some Illustration appear twice in the Books.
Even those 28mm Models from the Pseudo realistic Illustrations show Army List Option, we got for the Game.
The Predator is on the same Page as the Glaive. Showing them could means that they will come as future Army List options. I don't see the reason to use Illustrations with Stuff we will never see.
I doubt they used them just to fill up the Pages - some Illustration appear twice in the Books.
Oh I'm sure they are coming (except maybe the Plasma Predator) but we have no idea when. Thats different than the boxart style images in the books since they are the exact image used on the box so would only be created if that kit is being made. So if that gets printed in the book we know 99% that box is coming soon
clodax66 wrote: I wonder how much is it going to cost and what are they going to show us on 5th. I hope it's more than just the book.
Well the last two supplements came with 6-9 new plastic kits each. So assuming that the Mech battlegroup counts as four kits, we can plausibly expect around 2-4 more to accompany book #3.
That could easily fill out the rest of the Mechanicum range with known units like the Krios or Ordinatus. Or it could also be a bunch of space marine or Mechanicum-adjacent knights. Fingers crossed for next week.
I was tempted by the big 30k Mechanicum and managed to resist, but no chance of that here. Definitely down for some epic scale robots and toasters.
Be interesting to see what other kids come with the next book, more Mechanicum would be great but I'd really like to see Marine SHs or artillery.
Edit: Now that I think about it more, rather than the mechanicum knights the best thing to make the switch from resin would be the Armigers, they're just beyond ridiculous in resin. Appreciate the alt knights fit the theme better though!
Piousservant wrote: I was tempted by the big 30k Mechanicum and managed to resist, but no chance of that here. Definitely down for some epic scale robots and toasters.
Be interesting to see what other kids come with the next book, more Mechanicum would be great but I'd really like to see Marine SHs or artillery.
Edit: Now that I think about it more, rather than the mechanicum knights the best thing to make the switch from resin would be the Armigers, they're just beyond ridiculous in resin. Appreciate the alt knights fit the theme better though!
Well there are also Mechanicum Armigers
Since I'm pretty sure we will also be getting the Karacnos and Krios with this release those two and the book will likely be the only things shown next week, maybe some Knights too but I wouldn't bet on it.
Rules will be found in an upcoming publication for Legions Imperialis, which we’ll be revealing as we get closer to their pre-order date. Come back next week as we cut back to Warhammer: The Horus Heresy for our next Heresy Thursday reveal!
I’m currently at the stage of not being terribly fussy what Astartes are offered. We’ve a decent selection filling different tactical niches, and to be honest my collection looks fantastic.
I wouldn’t say no to further Heavy Armour (Kratos are nice, but I’d like some variety), or a rejigged infantry set focussing on the Support choices (not fussed for Mk, so open to variety there and all). I’m also hopeful for Vindicators. Oh, and the Arquitor to let me fill my Artillery slots.
I know it seems a bit early but I can't shake the feeling that GW wants to do something about the core book, and have intentionally kept it's reprinting to an absolute minimum( online only, no discount with indies ) and soften the cost of the reprint.
It might be the announcement of an economical starter which contains a revised core book in softback, and they swap out the Warhounds for two sprues of aircraft, super heavies or Knights. Or maybe a sprue of ruins. It might also be designed to be just marines so that it offers a legal army out of the box. So two small non-legal marine chapters for an introductionary game, or bundle them together for a legal force.
Only other thing I can think of is a new Titan. It would be big news not only for Legions but Titanicus as well, not to mention an attractive allied support for the new Mechanicum. A Mechanicum Titan?
SamusDrake wrote: I know it seems a bit early but I can't shake the feeling that GW wants to do something about the core book, and have intentionally kept it's reprinting to an absolute minimum( online only, no discount with indies ) and soften the cost of the reprint.
It might be the announcement of an economical starter which contains a revised core book in softback, and they swap out the Warhounds for two sprues of aircraft, super heavies or Knights. Or maybe a sprue of ruins. It might also be designed to be just marines so that it offers a legal army out of the box. So two small non-legal marine chapters for an introductionary game, or bundle them together for a legal force.
The individual rulebook is online-only because the starter box is widely available, and despite its flaws still far more likely to sell to new players. Even GW will be aware that a lot of customers wanting only a rulebook will know to check ebay first.
While I believe we will get a new starter box in time, now is probably too soon. They'll want to flesh out the model ranges a bit more first (like replacing some core resin kits - see below, or extra infantry kits for marines/solar) before trying to bring in another wave of new players. Plus I think that the battlegroup boxes we got in Summer were intended as temporary starter sets too. They're still readily available for the time being.
SamusDrake wrote: Only other thing I can think of is a new Titan. It would be big news not only for Legions but Titanicus as well, not to mention an attractive allied support for the new Mechanicum. A Mechanicum Titan?
Mechanicum knights are probably more likely in the short term. The Styrix & Atrapos have obvious box artwork in the rulebook, and GW seems to be wanting to move any potentially high-volume kit out of resin and into plastic.
Mechanicum knights are probably more likely in the short term. The Styrix & Atrapos have obvious box artwork in the rulebook, and GW seems to be wanting to move any potentially high-volume kit out of resin and into plastic.
"Nooooo....JAMES WORKSHOP! GODDAMN YOU!!!"
Please do not get my hopes up. Its cruel only to then see a starter box full of sodding marines!
But seriously, I'd love to see even just the 2x Mech-Questoris with options for either the Magaera and Styrix. It would make building lances in AT much easier.
You can see some infantry in the artwork, it gives an idea of the size. Here are the screenshots I took during the stream. They mentioned more models would be revealed in Heresy Thursday articles. No dates mentioned.
Yeah Mechanicus was clearly the show-stopper that got spoilt early which is likely why they've teased the Dark Mechanicum - probably an early tease too so we might end up getting a fairly long wait. Though there's a good chance that there will be more than the one model.
It's exciting to see in this scale as its the first proper "not a good model/civil war" model that we are really getting .
What's interesting to me is that the new lord on a podium is clearly very different to the Dark Mechanicum one in the HH scale game. So chances are that might well mean GW is going to fully split the two forces design wise and really make them stand out as separate forces rather than "Ok so one gets 2 new models and just er paint it with a dark paintscheme" attitude.
I am really surprised that they are going with separate Mech and Dark Mech units. I figured they would go for the same set up as the SA and Marines. GW is really investing a lot in molds and models for LI which is a great sign. Now if the rules would get some work...
. But complaining about having to carrry 3 (or any) books to a game seems quite ridiculous, am I the only one in the world that came up with the idea of just copying the pages where the units (datacards) one uses are? in my case for the second book those were just the Basilisk page and the Dracosan page...
