I'm strangely okay with them launching Epic as a Horus Heresy thing. Every new Epic player with a Legion force is one that I can convince to use a SM list against my Orks in any of the older rules sets.
Hey, anything "Epic" on store shelves will help drive interest, and only grow the fan/NetEA community.
I just bought two giant Epic armies this month and am excited for the prospect of players even dipping their toes as someone said.
Plus the current community is super loyal and industrious. They built their own Epic 30k out of a template of Epic Armageddon, a dozen+ Epic Armageddon army lists, etc. I am sure these same folks would build onto or expand anything GW launches, especially if they see any local interest.
His Master's Voice wrote: I'm strangely okay with them launching Epic as a Horus Heresy thing. Every new Epic player with a Legion force is one that I can convince to use a SM list against my Orks in any of the older rules sets.
The rumour is that it's basically Epic:Armageddon rather than small scale Titanicus (I did wonder if something like that would work with suddenly having Strengths under 5 include half steps, rounding down against Titans) so they might even be just able to jump as with the list they have.
His Master's Voice wrote: I'm strangely okay with them launching Epic as a Horus Heresy thing. Every new Epic player with a Legion force is one that I can convince to use a SM list against my Orks in any of the older rules sets.
The rumour is that it's basically Epic:Armageddon rather than small scale Titanicus (I did wonder if something like that would work with suddenly having Strengths under 5 include half steps, rounding down against Titans) so they might even be just able to jump as with the list they have.
Can you explain your meaning?
I never got excited for the Titanicus thing (the Titans fighting each other?)
I loved old Epic where you had all the infantry, tanks and artillery etc.
You mean you think it is the latter? Basically armies fighting each other?
Oh what a glorious day! I am way stoked about being able to get back into Epic. I've admired some of the 3D printed armies people have for a while now, but not having access to contemporary official models has held me back. The OOP stuff might have been okay but it has been generally hard to find and costs ridic moneys on ebay before selling out quite quickly..
I'll just have to make sure my "vintage" Realm Of Battle board & 4-piece modular gaming Hill that is compatible with the board is redone in a relatively "scale agnostic" detail & finish (ie those skulls have got to go), and I will have an Epic board I always dreamed about owning when I was a teenager. And will have a complete BA army with fighters and thunderhawks, accompanied by a modest Titan maniple (perhaps in the Warp Runners livery, as a homage to my og Epic army from the 90's)
Not concerned about the setting being tied to 30K. I would have played Imperials anyway, my opponents can get their 3rd party Xenos models on and we can use 2nd edition Space Marine rules (I just need to find copies of all the rules for it somehow)
lord_blackfang wrote: Personally I'd rather they wrap up some of the other side games first, I already can't keep up with everything and frankly neither can GW, there are still games with missing, nonfunctional or barely functional factions and they're adding more games that will be half done for years to come instead of completing something.
Blood Bowl might be going into a hibernation period soon, the game is missing just a couple teams in plastic.Titanicus is probably wrapped as a rules set and the line's getting merged into Epic. Same for Aeronautica.
Dunno how Underworlds are doing, haven't played it since the second season came out.
Someone in the BloodBowl Community said recently that Jay Clare (Blood Bowl designer) said at a recent event that there was plenty in the works for BB still. BB has also been releasing new teams (Snotlings, Nobility, Black Orcs, Khorne) before finishing off the remaining teams, which bodes well for it's future. Aeronautica/Titanicus will obviously have their slots taken up by Epic and given GW have expanded their factory space, so they can probably just release Epic without removing another line.
Regardless I expect Epic will die within 2 years, in my 25 years of being in the GW hobby, I've never seen anything at Epic scale actually be a success. Epic 40k crashed and burned, Warmaster was shuffled off to Specialist Games so fast some people don't even know it existed and Epic 4th has never been the most successful of the Specialist Games, let alone a big success.
lord_blackfang wrote: Personally I'd rather they wrap up some of the other side games first, I already can't keep up with everything and frankly neither can GW, there are still games with missing, nonfunctional or barely functional factions and they're adding more games that will be half done for years to come instead of completing something.
Blood Bowl might be going into a hibernation period soon, the game is missing just a couple teams in plastic.Titanicus is probably wrapped as a rules set and the line's getting merged into Epic. Same for Aeronautica.
Dunno how Underworlds are doing, haven't played it since the second season came out.
Someone in the BloodBowl Community said recently that Jay Clare (Blood Bowl designer) said at a recent event that there was plenty in the works for BB still. BB has also been releasing new teams (Snotlings, Nobility, Black Orcs, Khorne) before finishing off the remaining teams, which bodes well for it's future. Aeronautica/Titanicus will obviously have their slots taken up by Epic and given GW have expanded their factory space, so they can probably just release Epic without removing another line.
Regardless I expect Epic will die within 2 years, in my 25 years of being in the GW hobby, I've never seen anything at Epic scale actually be a success. Epic 40k crashed and burned, Warmaster was shuffled off to Specialist Games so fast some people don't even know it existed and Epic 4th has never been the most successful of the Specialist Games, let alone a big success.
Go back further beyond Epic 40K. Epic 2nd edition and Titan Legions were a core line of GW's alongside WHFB and 40K. Epic 40K crashed and burned because they threw out the old Epic system entirely and that alienated the existing player base.
Londinium wrote: Someone in the BloodBowl Community said recently that Jay Clare (Blood Bowl designer) said at a recent event that there was plenty in the works for BB still.
Nice to hear. BB is such an oddball in GW's line-up that I think it should just be an evergreen product for them.
Londinium wrote: Someone in the BloodBowl Community said recently that Jay Clare (Blood Bowl designer) said at a recent event that there was plenty in the works for BB still.
Nice to hear. BB is such an oddball in GW's line-up that I think it should just be an evergreen product for them.
Per anecdotal evidence, it's popular with a crowd that has not much overlap with the wider wargaming community and does its own thing for the most part.
I own a whole space marine chapter in old epic miniatures (unpainted!)
It is a huge collection which will never see a battlefield at once, and a chapter is a fraction of a legion.
I'm thinking a board game could be a good shout here.
The more I look at the video, the more I'm starting to believe that Epic is actually in the works. The units are marked as you'd expect for a HH game. Although this looks like it could be hinting at a computer game, the unit sizes and shapes really do fit the profile of EA's bases.
Regardless I expect Epic will die within 2 years, in my 25 years of being in the GW hobby, I've never seen anything at Epic scale actually be a success. Epic 40k crashed and burned, Warmaster was shuffled off to Specialist Games so fast some people don't even know it existed and Epic 4th has never been the most successful of the Specialist Games, let alone a big success.
Both AT and AI are Epic scale games and have been on sale since 2018 and 2019, respectively. Thats longer than 2 years and both games experiencing long droughts in releases.
The frustrating thing is that the players - customers - are ready and waiting, but GW themselves just cannot be bothered with simple things; a new plastic scout titan for Titanicus, and keeping a single starter set for AI available. Riding on the coat tails of last year's Horus Heresy mania, this was an easy win for both games...
His Master's Voice wrote: I'm strangely okay with them launching Epic as a Horus Heresy thing. Every new Epic player with a Legion force is one that I can convince to use a SM list against my Orks in any of the older rules sets.
The rumour is that it's basically Epic:Armageddon rather than small scale Titanicus (I did wonder if something like that would work with suddenly having Strengths under 5 include half steps, rounding down against Titans) so they might even be just able to jump as with the list they have.
Can you explain your meaning?
I never got excited for the Titanicus thing (the Titans fighting each other?)
I loved old Epic where you had all the infantry, tanks and artillery etc.
You mean you think it is the latter? Basically armies fighting each other?
As in literally using the Epic Armageddon rules (4th ed? Units have an anti-personnel or anti-tank value that works against just infantry or tanks). Honestly it's one of GW's best games in my opinion, I prefer it to the previous Epic40K ruleset (3rd, where units just had Firepower values that worked off a chart).
You have formations of infantry and tanks (or a war engine, or squadron of warengines) and you operate on a alternating activation sequence. There's no real phases - just dependant on the orders you assign a unit when it activates (which you choose when you activate, no preassigning like Battlefleet Gothic or Titanicus). Units can 'engage' - move a bit and shoot, or go on overwatch to shoot out of turn, sustain fire - sacrifice most movement to get a bonus to shooting, assault! that triggers a Firefight/Close combat (something akin to a 40K scale game between two formations, that has devastating results for one side) or do a double or triple move.
Biggest departure form other games is that there is a suppression system, which starts to mess with your orders and how effectively you formations can fight, even without them losing any units.
You get a Blast marker (BM) every time a unit shoots at you, and also whenever you lose a model - with some weapons also adding more BMs regardless of if they kill anything like the larger artillery units.
Each BM you have within a formation stops a unit shooting, determined from the back of the formation (you lose casualties from the front).If you have more BMs than units, they you are broken and must fall back and can't do any orders - losing an assault automatically breaks you. Additionally, each new BM you get when broken kills a unit regardless of their save.
The tournament scenario is also a masterpiece, where you need to complete two out of five objectives after two turns. Perhaps kill the most expensive unit, or take their backfield objective, or hold two of their three objectives, or keep any of their units out of your table half, or hold all three of your objectives. At first glance it seems straight forward, but as you start planning things out you also have to keep an eye on perhaps an entirely separate set of objectives that don't align with you plan whilst also committing to playing some form of attack and defence. When making up narrative scenarios, we've often just come up with justifications for these objectives.
Generally you'd be playing 3-4K points and that would get you around 8-12 formations (that might be as few as 4, but generally around 6-10, occasionally 12 and up units).
So with infantry squads counting as one or two units for a set of ten marines, perhaps around 100 individual units on the table. You might have say 4 half companies including transports, a tank company with perhaps a few specialist tanks operating independantly, a couple of smaller specialist jump infantry units, bike outriders and Titan and Aeronautica support in an army of that size.
Londinium wrote: Someone in the BloodBowl Community said recently that Jay Clare (Blood Bowl designer) said at a recent event that there was plenty in the works for BB still.
Nice to hear. BB is such an oddball in GW's line-up that I think it should just be an evergreen product for them.
Per anecdotal evidence, it's popular with a crowd that has not much overlap with the wider wargaming community and does its own thing for the most part.
Yeah it lives in it's own little ecosystem, which has as many cross overs from the board gaming community as it does the wargaming community. It supported itself fine without GW involvement for the best part of 15 years probably the best out of all the specialist games. It also has a thriving 3rd party miniatures scene. Even if GW dropped BB today, which I doubt it will, that game will do just fine.
Regardless I expect Epic will die within 2 years, in my 25 years of being in the GW hobby, I've never seen anything at Epic scale actually be a success. Epic 40k crashed and burned, Warmaster was shuffled off to Specialist Games so fast some people don't even know it existed and Epic 4th has never been the most successful of the Specialist Games, let alone a big success.
Both AT and AI are Epic scale games and have been on sale since 2018 and 2019, respectively. Thats longer than 2 years and both games experiencing long droughts in releases.
AT and AI are more niche, I was talking about the full on wargames at that scale. I see a space in the market for niche titles like AI/AT, focusing on uber specific warfare. Indeed those titles have shown it. They also deal with much larger vehicles than the full on wargame epic stuff, so the miniatures are much more attractive.
His Master's Voice wrote: I'm strangely okay with them launching Epic as a Horus Heresy thing. Every new Epic player with a Legion force is one that I can convince to use a SM list against my Orks in any of the older rules sets.
The rumour is that it's basically Epic:Armageddon rather than small scale Titanicus (I did wonder if something like that would work with suddenly having Strengths under 5 include half steps, rounding down against Titans) so they might even be just able to jump as with the list they have.
Can you explain your meaning?
I never got excited for the Titanicus thing (the Titans fighting each other?)
I loved old Epic where you had all the infantry, tanks and artillery etc.
You mean you think it is the latter? Basically armies fighting each other?
As in literally using the Epic Armageddon rules (4th ed? Units have an anti-personnel or anti-tank value that works against just infantry or tanks). Honestly it's one of GW's best games in my opinion, I prefer it to the previous Epic40K ruleset (3rd, where units just had Firepower values that worked off a chart).
You have formations of infantry and tanks (or a war engine, or squadron of warengines) and you operate on a alternating activation sequence. There's no real phases - just dependant on the orders you assign a unit when it activates (which you choose when you activate, no preassigning like Battlefleet Gothic or Titanicus). Units can 'engage' - move a bit and shoot, or go on overwatch to shoot out of turn, sustain fire - sacrifice most movement to get a bonus to shooting, assault! that triggers a Firefight/Close combat (something akin to a 40K scale game between two formations, that has devastating results for one side) or do a double or triple move.
Biggest departure form other games is that there is a suppression system, which starts to mess with your orders and how effectively you formations can fight, even without them losing any units.
You get a Blast marker (BM) every time a unit shoots at you, and also whenever you lose a model - with some weapons also adding more BMs regardless of if they kill anything like the larger artillery units.
Each BM you have within a formation stops a unit shooting, determined from the back of the formation (you lose casualties from the front).If you have more BMs than units, they you are broken and must fall back and can't do any orders - losing an assault automatically breaks you. Additionally, each new BM you get when broken kills a unit regardless of their save.
The tournament scenario is also a masterpiece, where you need to complete two out of five objectives after two turns. Perhaps kill the most expensive unit, or take their backfield objective, or hold two of their three objectives, or keep any of their units out of your table half, or hold all three of your objectives. At first glance it seems straight forward, but as you start planning things out you also have to keep an eye on perhaps an entirely separate set of objectives that don't align with you plan whilst also committing to playing some form of attack and defence. When making up narrative scenarios, we've often just come up with justifications for these objectives.
Generally you'd be playing 3-4K points and that would get you around 8-12 formations (that might be as few as 4, but generally around 6-10, occasionally 12 and up units).
So with infantry squads counting as one or two units for a set of ten marines, perhaps around 100 individual units on the table. You might have say 4 half companies including transports, a tank company with perhaps a few specialist tanks operating independantly, a couple of smaller specialist jump infantry units, bike outriders and Titan and Aeronautica support in an army of that size.
Thanks. So long as its armies...that would be me happy.
My love was 'Space Marine'...I think it was possibly Epic 2nd ed? (not quite sure). The one where you issued Charge/First Fire and Advance tokens.
Thought it was simple and effective. 8(?) objectives around the board, controlling each gave 5 points. Marine Scouts dropping off via Thunderhawk late in the game to steal objectives etc
Any variation of the big battles would see me good though imo, so long as they dont over complicate it. Never fancied the Titan based games.
Rumour going around in one of the Epic FB groups is that the person designing is a big Space Marine 2nd edition fan, so the rules are based off of that rather than Epic Armageddon.
I'd be a little surprised if that's the case, as as much as I love that ruleset, it won't allow the granular detail that Armageddon would allow for something like different Legion stats and ways of differentiating. Epic SM 1st edition was of course the original HH set, but I think would probably be a bit clunky to play now, so who knows?
I'm not very knowledgeable about their release history, but would it be fair to surmise that this pushes Epic into... late 2024? The tiny teaser seems to dash hopes of this year and next summer is Sigmar-shaped.
AT and AI are more niche, I was talking about the full on wargames at that scale. I see a space in the market for niche titles like AI/AT, focusing on uber specific warfare. Indeed those titles have shown it. They also deal with much larger vehicles than the full on wargame epic stuff, so the miniatures are much more attractive.
I see what you mean.
One of the reasons Epic may have done poorly in the past was the constant name change; Adeptus Titanicus, Space Marine, Titan Legions, Epic 40K and Epic Armageddon. Actually, in my case it had the opposite effect! My mother phoned up GW to order replacement models for Space Crusade, but they pretty much said "we sell a newer game called Space Marine..."
GW are slick. Very slick.
To my horror we ended up with a game box featuring a landraider surrounded by Ultramarines and flanked by large, funny-lookin' giant robots.
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No_Marines_Here wrote: I'm not very knowledgeable about their release history, but would it be fair to surmise that this pushes Epic into... late 2024? The tiny teaser seems to dash hopes of this year and next summer is Sigmar-shaped.
If Aeronautica is anything to go by then I would assume that this game - whatever it is - will be properly announced with the next round of previews.
Pacific wrote: Well.. there we go, that looks pretty convincing!
Rumour going around in one of the Epic FB groups is that the person designing is a big Space Marine 2nd edition fan, so the rules are based off of that rather than Epic Armageddon.
I'd be a little surprised if that's the case, as as much as I love that ruleset, it won't allow the granular detail that Armageddon would allow for something like different Legion stats and ways of differentiating. Epic SM 1st edition was of course the original HH set, but I think would probably be a bit clunky to play now, so who knows?
Great news for me if true as that's the game I had the most fun with from GW.
Maybe combo in some of the blast marker/suppression stuff from 3 and/or 4 if that would somehow be possible?
Pacific wrote: Well.. there we go, that looks pretty convincing!
Rumour going around in one of the Epic FB groups is that the person designing is a big Space Marine 2nd edition fan, so the rules are based off of that rather than Epic Armageddon.
I'd be a little surprised if that's the case, as as much as I love that ruleset, it won't allow the granular detail that Armageddon would allow for something like different Legion stats and ways of differentiating. Epic SM 1st edition was of course the original HH set, but I think would probably be a bit clunky to play now, so who knows?
Interesting...I also saw some comments on FB that a designer confirmed that they weren't making a game called Epic. And that support for AT will continue (which the compendium and the return of the cards already implied).
Sooooo...maybe the game is "Space Marine" (mk.2)? And so perhaps it's explicitly a stepping stone product rather than "Epic returns...but not really" like I was yammering on about.
Pacific wrote: Well.. there we go, that looks pretty convincing!
Rumour going around in one of the Epic FB groups is that the person designing is a big Space Marine 2nd edition fan, so the rules are based off of that rather than Epic Armageddon.
I'd be a little surprised if that's the case, as as much as I love that ruleset, it won't allow the granular detail that Armageddon would allow for something like different Legion stats and ways of differentiating. Epic SM 1st edition was of course the original HH set, but I think would probably be a bit clunky to play now, so who knows?
Interesting...I also saw some comments on FB that a designer confirmed that they weren't making a game called Epic. And that support for AT will continue (which the compendium and the return of the cards already implied).
Sooooo...maybe the game is "Space Marine" (mk.2)? And so perhaps it's explicitly a stepping stone product rather than "Epic returns...but not really" like I was yammering on about.
Naming it 'Space Marine' is probably the worst they could do for 'granny factor', it's too easily confused with other products in their lineup and with the upcoming video game as well. What i could see is something like Horus Heresy: Legions or something like that, HH:Armageddon, HH:Apocalypse or whatever, making sure that it's a HH game first and foremost.
No_Marines_Here wrote: I'm not very knowledgeable about their release history, but would it be fair to surmise that this pushes Epic into... late 2024? The tiny teaser seems to dash hopes of this year and next summer is Sigmar-shaped.
If some of the more in depth rumours are true, and it's an Istvaan box, I think we're looking at the start of the 3-month window. Which would put the next announcement end of July/August, after the launch of 40K 10th edition.
Give it another 3 months of previews and hype and we're at the October/November slot.
No_Marines_Here wrote: I'm not very knowledgeable about their release history, but would it be fair to surmise that this pushes Epic into... late 2024? The tiny teaser seems to dash hopes of this year and next summer is Sigmar-shaped.
If some of the more in depth rumours are true, and it's an Istvaan box, I think we're looking at the start of the 3-month window. Which would put the next announcement end of July/August, after the launch of 40K 10th edition.
Give it another 3 months of previews and hype and we're at the October/November slot.
The unit icons in the teaser where SoH and IH legions, which is possible on Istvaan. As for your timeline, Valrak mentioned late summer to fall for the first releases.
I can see an Ullanor set myself, as it was the Orks being crushed at Ullanor which largely removed them from the Galactic stage during the Heresy.
Eldar of all stripes would still have been reeling from the birth of Slaanesh, as that event is what first caused the Warpstorms that sundered man’s previous empire, and blew them away allowing The Emperor to launch the Great Crusade.
Necrons were around, but super patchy. They wouldn’t awaken in any great number for Millenia.
Tsagualsa wrote: The unit icons in the teaser where SoH and IH legions, which is possible on Istvaan. As for your timeline, Valrak mentioned late summer to fall for the first releases.
Has anyone identified the other icon on the Imperial Fists side?
There’s Imperial Fists, a Titan, and two units which I can’t quite make out the symbol for, looks like three horizontal bars the top one of which is broken in two.
No_Marines_Here wrote: I'm not very knowledgeable about their release history, but would it be fair to surmise that this pushes Epic into... late 2024? The tiny teaser seems to dash hopes of this year and next summer is Sigmar-shaped.
If some of the more in depth rumours are true, and it's an Istvaan box, I think we're looking at the start of the 3-month window. Which would put the next announcement end of July/August, after the launch of 40K 10th edition.
Give it another 3 months of previews and hype and we're at the October/November slot.
The unit icons in the teaser where SoH and IH legions, which is possible on Istvaan. As for your timeline, Valrak mentioned late summer to fall for the first releases.
Wasn't it Imperial Fists not Iron Hands? Would also make more sense since normal HH also has those as poster boys
Tsagualsa wrote: The unit icons in the teaser where SoH and IH legions, which is possible on Istvaan. As for your timeline, Valrak mentioned late summer to fall for the first releases.
Has anyone identified the other icon on the Imperial Fists side?
There’s Imperial Fists, a Titan, and two units which I can’t quite make out the symbol for, looks like three horizontal bars the top one of which is broken in two.
RazorEdge wrote: There is another rumor saying that this new Epic installment is the last GW Game with Jervis Johnson involved.
That is really interesting! I wonder if that means the game is more likely to be like Epic 40,000 in that case? As I believe there was a quote from Jervis saying he really loved the effeciency of that system.
As for Great Crusade or other race expansions? That seems like a logical next step, perhaps they will wait and see what the sales numbers are like. But, as long as the rules copy or are close to a previous version of the game, subbing in those rules and getting 3d prints or proxy minis will be straightforward.
No_Marines_Here wrote: I'm not very knowledgeable about their release history, but would it be fair to surmise that this pushes Epic into... late 2024? The tiny teaser seems to dash hopes of this year and next summer is Sigmar-shaped.
If some of the more in depth rumours are true, and it's an Istvaan box, I think we're looking at the start of the 3-month window. Which would put the next announcement end of July/August, after the launch of 40K 10th edition.
Give it another 3 months of previews and hype and we're at the October/November slot.
The unit icons in the teaser where SoH and IH legions, which is possible on Istvaan. As for your timeline, Valrak mentioned late summer to fall for the first releases.
Wasn't it Imperial Fists not Iron Hands? Would also make more sense since normal HH also has those as poster boys
Tsagualsa wrote: The unit icons in the teaser where SoH and IH legions, which is possible on Istvaan. As for your timeline, Valrak mentioned late summer to fall for the first releases.
Has anyone identified the other icon on the Imperial Fists side?
There’s Imperial Fists, a Titan, and two units which I can’t quite make out the symbol for, looks like three horizontal bars the top one of which is broken in two.
Could it maybe be an Aquila?
On repeat inspection in better resolution you are correct, it's Imperial Fists, not Iron Hands.
Has anyone identified the other icon on the Imperial Fists side?
There’s Imperial Fists, a Titan, and two units which I can’t quite make out the symbol for, looks like three horizontal bars the top one of which is broken in two.
Could it maybe be an Aquila?
I do believe you’re right, I’m sure I’ve seen that squished Aquila before, maybe Solar Auxilia.
If I can haz this new Epic launch box before xmas, I'll be a happy man. If not.. well, I can wait. Even my 28mm main army aint going nowhere until spring/summer 2024
I hope the rumours about 2nd ed Space Marine being a big influence turn out to be true.. That's my fave flavour of Epic right there (simple enough to learn fluently but hard to master)
cole1114 wrote: I wonder if it'll be something like Epic Siege of Terra, or something like that.
I could see FW setting things up in the Siege of Cthonia book for an Epic scale battle to focus on and finish off that storyline, then the next HH campaign book can focus elsewhere.
tauist wrote: If I can haz this new Epic launch box before xmas, I'll be a happy man. If not.. well, I can wait. Even my 28mm main army aint going nowhere until spring/summer 2024
RazorEdge wrote: There is another rumor saying that this new Epic installment is the last GW Game with Jervis Johnson involved.
That is really interesting! I wonder if that means the game is more likely to be like Epic 40,000 in that case? As I believe there was a quote from Jervis saying he really loved the effeciency of that system.
Fun fact - this October will be 20 years since Jervis wrote the Epic Armageddon book. With the new 40k landing on the 40th anniversary of Warhammer, will they aim for another one?
No_Marines_Here wrote: I'm not very knowledgeable about their release history, but would it be fair to surmise that this pushes Epic into... late 2024? The tiny teaser seems to dash hopes of this year and next summer is Sigmar-shaped.
Valrak predicted the preview based strictly on the release timetable he claims to have been provided with (i.e. his source didn't mention the preview, but a release that fits the schedule that Valrak claims he's been told would require the preview to appear when it did). He's been saying before the end of this year.
However, as always when a rumor is involved, exercise caution.
xttz wrote: Fun fact - this October will be 20 years since Jervis wrote the Epic Armageddon book. With the new 40k landing on the 40th anniversary of Warhammer, will they aim for another one?
And November will be 35 years since Adeptus Titanicus was released, so they could certainly make something of that as well.
Based purely on the Warhammer Fest preview of AT in 2018 where we saw models and got an August release, and the Fest preview of AI in 2019 where we saw just a trailer and got a November release, I’m guessing November.
RazorEdge wrote: There is another rumor saying that this new Epic installment is the last GW Game with Jervis Johnson involved.
That is really interesting! I wonder if that means the game is more likely to be like Epic 40,000 in that case? As I believe there was a quote from Jervis saying he really loved the effeciency of that system.
If Jervis is involved then using 3rd edition Epic for the ruleset seems highly unlikely. He got pretty badly burned by the ... unimpressed response from Epic players to Epic 40,000.
Epic 40,000 was based on rules devised by Jervis (and developed with Andy Chambers and Gav Thorpe IIRC). They were very proud of it and as far as I know they still are. But the player base did NOT get on with it. Too different to the previous Space Marine / Titan Legions ruleset.
Epic Armageddon was Jervis's next attempt and is basically "Epic revised by popular demand!" It's the game fans wanted to play. The previous edition is the game Jervis wanted to play. He said in the old Epic 40,000 magazines while developing Epic A that he had to eat humble pie and give the people what they wanted.
Part of this involved adding more detail and crunch (aka fiddly special rules) back into the game, although not to the level of 2nd ed Epic.
Another part involved putting more 'flavour' into the units by borrowing the approach Andy Chambers had used for Battlefleet Gothic--giving each unit its own fluff entry instead of just a quick overview.
A third part involved a more competitive tournament-focused approach. Epic 40K was much more about scenarios and DIY ideas, in keeping with the general ethos of WFB and 40K around that time. (5th ed WFB came out just before Epic 40K, and 3rd ed 40K came out just after, and all three had lots of scenarios in their rulebooks.)
I love Epic 40,000 myself but I don't expect it to ever come back, sadly. And if it did it would cause a ruckus all over again.
cole1114 wrote: I wonder if it'll be something like Epic Siege of Terra, or something like that.
I think they'll cover a number of battlefields in various campaign books like they did with Titanicus.
With the Thematic SoH vs. IF - I guess we will see 8mm MkVI Marines? (even when I hope for a mix of MkII, MkIII and MklV)
Perhaps. If I were to put money on it, I'd bet they'll go with MkIV armor. The round exhausts + no pimpled shoulder pad makes it easier to model for plastic in that scale.
Go back further beyond Epic 40K. Epic 2nd edition and Titan Legions were a core line of GW's alongside WHFB and 40K. Epic 40K crashed and burned because they threw out the old Epic system entirely and that alienated the existing player base.
Indeed - 1st and 2nd ed ended up being the third lines for GW pre LotR, though 2nd ed started to flag hence 3rd. Which was pretty much a master class in upsetting fans - make models 2-10x's more expensive, change the basing (later clarifications didn't undo damage) and massively change the rules system (which ironically was recycled with great success for BFG).
To be honest, that trailer makes me think more of an Apocalypse set of rules for Horus Heresy than the return of Epic. Meaning still using the 32mm miniature range, just with rules for playing big battles faster.
I don't see the reason to still use the same logo rather than their separate game logo like their other games if it was meant to be a teaser for Epic 6mm/8mm new range.
Rumour going around in one of the Epic FB groups is that the person designing is a big Space Marine 2nd edition fan, so the rules are based off of that rather than Epic Armageddon.
I'd be a little surprised if that's the case, as as much as I love that ruleset, it won't allow the granular detail that Armageddon would allow for something like different Legion stats and ways of differentiating. Epic SM 1st edition was of course the original HH set, but I think would probably be a bit clunky to play now, so who knows?
I would be disappointed as the ruleset isn't that great, but unsurprised. 4th ed plays like a wargame and with Warmaster is a fairly unique ruleset for GW (both being done by designers as an adjunct to their GW work in some ways), 2nd ed was far more the common style of GW game.
Sarouan wrote: To be honest, that trailer makes me think more of an Apocalypse set of rules for Horus Heresy than the return of Epic. Meaning still using the 32mm miniature range, just with rules for playing big battles faster.
I don't see the reason to still use the same logo rather than their separate game logo like their other games if it was meant to be a teaser for Epic 6mm/8mm new range.
Titanicus seems to occasionally come under the Heresy banner.
Sarouan wrote: To be honest, that trailer makes me think more of an Apocalypse set of rules for Horus Heresy than the return of Epic. Meaning still using the 32mm miniature range, just with rules for playing big battles faster.
I don't see the reason to still use the same logo rather than their separate game logo like their other games if it was meant to be a teaser for Epic 6mm/8mm new range.
Totally agree.
Think there is an awful lot of speculation, and people are running with it.
A lot of folks are going to be quite disappointed when it turns out it is just a version of Apocalypse for Horus Heresy to enable large games.
As HH is based heavily on 7th edition 40k, I think GW are just going to slightly adjust the Apocalypse rules from 7th and put a lot of HH photos and art in it , and then call it done.
2 years after the HH release we get plastic Assault Marines, GW have 10 game systems currently... yet people on here seem to think that GW can do a 6-8mm game system.
The only rumor of that kind I heared is that "based on E:A" rumor from faeit.
I don't think any reliable (and at this point that likely means Valrak?) source mentioned which of the old systems is being used as a base, or if it's a completely new concoction.
It's mostly "some dude on Facebook" type of hearsay in regards to actual rules.
Sarouan wrote: To be honest, that trailer makes me think more of an Apocalypse set of rules for Horus Heresy than the return of Epic. Meaning still using the 32mm miniature range, just with rules for playing big battles faster.
I don't see the reason to still use the same logo rather than their separate game logo like their other games if it was meant to be a teaser for Epic 6mm/8mm new range.
Titanicus seems to occasionally come under the Heresy banner.
If they want to make pretense of secrecy can't exactly reveal banner...
"here's our mystery project. We won't tell what it is but here's it's banner that reads epic: horus heresy. Good luck figuring out what it might be! Real tough one!"
Sarouan wrote: To be honest, that trailer makes me think more of an Apocalypse set of rules for Horus Heresy than the return of Epic. Meaning still using the 32mm miniature range, just with rules for playing big battles faster.
I don't see the reason to still use the same logo rather than their separate game logo like their other games if it was meant to be a teaser for Epic 6mm/8mm new range.
Totally agree.
Think there is an awful lot of speculation, and people are running with it.
A lot of folks are going to be quite disappointed when it turns out it is just a version of Apocalypse for Horus Heresy to enable large games.
As HH is based heavily on 7th edition 40k, I think GW are just going to slightly adjust the Apocalypse rules from 7th and put a lot of HH photos and art in it , and then call it done.
2 years after the HH release we get plastic Assault Marines, GW have 10 game systems currently... yet people on here seem to think that GW can do a 6-8mm game system.
Sorry people, but it isn't going to happen.
Gw Epic is dead... fan driven Epic lives on!
It wouldn't be war in new scale though.
Lots of denial here. Guess for you what walks like a duck and quacks like a duck is a dog
How sure you are it's not epic? Care to make a bet? 100 bucks says it's epic
GW shouts nothing, they just put out a trailer with no miniature and no other logo than Horus Heresy.
But yes, this thread is solely about believing and betting. There's absolutely nothing else than rumors, the same we keep having every year from the same people who'll eventually be right one day.
Better to wait for more info from Warhammer Community, but so far, I'm still not betting on Epic's return this year. Safer to bet for a new rule expansion for Horus Heresy using the same range, just with a Apocalypse-sized scale inviting people to buy more of existing kits rather than investing in a totally new range from scratch...that may not sell that much in the end.
Yeah, but let's be honest : that's the title of this thread from the beginning.
Yep. One person decided to title the thread as a question about the possibility of a release this year.
That's not a rumor or evidence. Just a quirk of posting style.
The video snippet GW posted heavily leans toward Epic but doesn't give even a hint of a date. Understandably so, given that they're currently gearing up for the primary system release.
I'd also point out that Heresy Apocalypse makes no sense at the current stage. New edition was less than a year ago. They're still trying to get through the basics, let alone other armies. Apocalypse type rules presume widespread large collections.
Sarouan wrote: To be honest, that trailer makes me think more of an Apocalypse set of rules for Horus Heresy than the return of Epic. Meaning still using the 32mm miniature range, just with rules for playing big battles faster.
I don't see the reason to still use the same logo rather than their separate game logo like their other games if it was meant to be a teaser for Epic 6mm/8mm new range.
Titanicus seems to occasionally come under the Heresy banner.
If they want to make pretense of secrecy can't exactly reveal banner...
"here's our mystery project. We won't tell what it is but here's it's banner that reads epic: horus heresy. Good luck figuring out what it might be! Real tough one!"
Sarouan wrote: To be honest, that trailer makes me think more of an Apocalypse set of rules for Horus Heresy than the return of Epic. Meaning still using the 32mm miniature range, just with rules for playing big battles faster.
I don't see the reason to still use the same logo rather than their separate game logo like their other games if it was meant to be a teaser for Epic 6mm/8mm new range.
Totally agree.
Think there is an awful lot of speculation, and people are running with it.
A lot of folks are going to be quite disappointed when it turns out it is just a version of Apocalypse for Horus Heresy to enable large games.
As HH is based heavily on 7th edition 40k, I think GW are just going to slightly adjust the Apocalypse rules from 7th and put a lot of HH photos and art in it , and then call it done.
2 years after the HH release we get plastic Assault Marines, GW have 10 game systems currently... yet people on here seem to think that GW can do a 6-8mm game system.
Sorry people, but it isn't going to happen.
Gw Epic is dead... fan driven Epic lives on!
It wouldn't be war in new scale though.
Lots of denial here. Guess for you what walks like a duck and quacks like a duck is a dog
How sure you are it's not epic? Care to make a bet? 100 bucks says it's epic
Scale can mean a lot of things when it comes to miniature gaming. Scale of the models, Scale of the conflict, etc. So going up to a larger scale conflict is war in a new scale.
You call it denial, I'll call it being clear headed, and going by what we know... which is very little.
GW aren't shouting anything, a short video that has no miniatures, just a few icons on Squares & Rectangles moving around a map with a few words of text, and a bit of background mechanical noise.
From that people are going full hog that this is Epic, and that GW are shouting ot loud and clear that it is Epic.
I just worry that people are getting fully invested in the hype train that is being generated, and are going to be utterly gutted when ot turns out to be something completely different. I honestly think we need to cool our jets and not let our hopes cloud our judgement.
Yes I want Epic back... but that doesn't mean to say that GW are going to add it to their already crowded catalogue.
They have 10 game systems, which each has a sizable catalogue, they are adding an 11th soon (Warhammer The Old World), which is going to see their product catalogue increase by a large amount.
They already have supply issues with the 10 game systems they have, so they are going to be under a lot of pressure. Epic burnt GW in the past, so jumping back into 6-8mm mass conflict would be seen as a very risky endeavour.
Yeah, but let's be honest : that's the title of this thread from the beginning.
Yep. One person decided to title the thread as a question about the possibility of a release this year.
That's not a rumor or evidence. Just a quirk of posting style.
The video snippet GW posted heavily leans toward Epic but doesn't give even a hint of a date. Understandably so, given that they're currently gearing up for the primary system release.
I'd also point out that Heresy Apocalypse makes no sense at the current stage. New edition was less than a year ago. They're still trying to get through the basics, let alone other armies. Apocalypse type rules presume widespread large collections.
Horus Heresy has a very loyal and devoted fan base since 7th edition. So people have large collections. Apocalypse wouldn't require much investment from GW, a book, a few new templates and tokens, maybe some bundle deals... and that is about it.
The only rumor of that kind I heared is that "based on E:A" rumor from faeit.
As HMV said it was 'some dude on Facebook' (haha) but someone who claimed they had an inside source - also rumour was that they were a big fan of 2nd edition Space Marine (and so the new game will resemble that), not Epic40k.
Better to wait for more info from Warhammer Community, but so far, I'm still not betting on Epic's return this year. Safer to bet for a new rule expansion for Horus Heresy using the same range, just with a Apocalypse-sized scale inviting people to buy more of existing kits rather than investing in a totally new range from scratch...that may not sell that much in the end.
Bit confused on this one as Horus Heresy is apparently already designed for large scale games. I was interested in a force of 4 Armigers and a Knight, and I've been told that even that is too small for a game. LOL, a Knight army isn't enough dakka! Would you Adam & Eve it!
Mr Morden wrote: Heresy Apocalypse seems unlikely and given the total lack of interest or support the last Apocalypse game got would anyone bother to buy it?
The last Apoc was basically Epic Armegeddon rules scaled up to 28mm sized models.
Mr Morden wrote: Heresy Apocalypse seems unlikely and given the total lack of interest or support the last Apocalypse game got would anyone bother to buy it?
The last Apoc was basically Epic Armegeddon rules scaled up to 28mm sized models.
Yeah but GW treated it as a throwaway game and thats what they did sadly
Yeah but GW treated it as a throwaway game and thats what they did sadly
Apocalypse for 40K seemed to be aimed at gaming clubs and events that would likely host vast scale games. For that very small niche of venues a limited run was all that was needed.
There’s also the possibility that this is teasing a game with 8mm scale models that’s not “Epic” the game. When you say Epic, people think of Space Marine/Epic40k/EpicA etc, with rules for everything from infantry to titans and everything in between. Titanicus is a 8mm scale game but not “Epic”. This could be for example a tank game in 8mm scale. No infantry, no titans, purely focused on tank battles. It could be a board game with 8mm infantry as playing pieces. Lots of possibilities
MaxT wrote: There’s also the possibility that this is teasing a game with 8mm scale models that’s not “Epic” the game. When you say Epic, people think of Space Marine/Epic40k/EpicA etc, with rules for everything from infantry to titans and everything in between. Titanicus is a 8mm scale game but not “Epic”. This could be for example a tank game in 8mm scale. No infantry, no titans, purely focused on tank battles. It could be a board game with 8mm infantry as playing pieces. Lots of possibilities
"Epic40K: Legion Commander" or something like that...
MaxT wrote: There’s also the possibility that this is teasing a game with 8mm scale models that’s not “Epic” the game. When you say Epic, people think of Space Marine/Epic40k/EpicA etc, with rules for everything from infantry to titans and everything in between. Titanicus is a 8mm scale game but not “Epic”. This could be for example a tank game in 8mm scale. No infantry, no titans, purely focused on tank battles. It could be a board game with 8mm infantry as playing pieces. Lots of possibilities
Yeah, I think that's what the FB poster I mentioned was getting at. The designer said that they weren't working on a game called Epic. So it's possibly another stepping stone game with SM vehicles and/or infantry. From there, who knows what happens?
Also, note that AT and AI are not 8mm scale. Per the studio, they're 1/4 scale 30K/40K scale. Which should mean that the minis will be coming in noticeably larger than old Epic. I know the old Epic Rhinos and such I have on my AT bases are certainly not 1/4 of the length of current 30K and 40K Rhino models.
MaxT wrote: There’s also the possibility that this is teasing a game with 8mm scale models that’s not “Epic” the game. When you say Epic, people think of Space Marine/Epic40k/EpicA etc, with rules for everything from infantry to titans and everything in between. Titanicus is a 8mm scale game but not “Epic”. This could be for example a tank game in 8mm scale. No infantry, no titans, purely focused on tank battles. It could be a board game with 8mm infantry as playing pieces. Lots of possibilities
1. The teaser video showed an Icon with Titan Legion/Adeptus Titanicus logo prominently in the middle of the shot.
2. Since models for Aircraft and Titans in 'Epic scale' (lets not get bogged down on if that means 6mm or 8mm or whatever, it's roughly 1/4th of 40k scale) it would make not much sense to make a pure tank battle game. Literally the first thing people would ask for would be to include the Titanicus titans and Aeronautica flyers, and at that point you're making Epic, if you want to call it that or not.
3. If they picked a scale to not match the other two small-scale games deliberately, that would lead to much bad blood from the community. And yet another intermediate scale would of course be wasting your preexisting assets, aka the titans and planes.
It's funny that some of the most chilled places on the internet are the Epic FB groups, yet if you want to see an argument make a post about scale!
Even in the original game the scale for Epic was absolutely all over the place. Even the tiny original marines would struggle to fit in the Rhinos, and things like the Squiggoths and other Ork vehicles must be manned by snotlings. There was very little consistency. But, it kind of works, because you are dealing with a level of abstraction anyway, I don't think it ever looked silly on the tabletop.
Nowadays many of the proxy and 3D prints seem to settle on about 8mm for a marine and a bit smaller for an Ork or normal human, although a few of the 3D prints (and of course depending on what scale they are printed at) are pushing that a bit larger. I honestly think, as with historicals where it's very common to have minis from multiple manufacturers together and not completely matching scales, unless they are on the same base you don't notice it - I know though YMMV with that, and like with historicals, some collectors insist on one range for the exact uniformity.
As for bad blood from the community, unfortunately I don't think that has ever entered the equation when GW make decisions like this? They thought nothing of torpedoing the WHFB community by destroying the old world, and that was for an active/published game. I don't think they would care about upsetting a community, which by itself is smaller than either the BB or Necromunda communities were when those games were officially unsupported over a period of time. And I think the lure of adding loads of sculpted detail to tiny minis (as has happened with the 3D printing design community), will necessarily push up the scale - if I had to guess I would say a marine will probably be between 8-10mm, just looking at some of the printed stuff around now and the level of detail. I just hope its close enough that my classic GW stuff and Vanguard minis don't look completely ridiculous next to them.
Vorian wrote: They started deciding AT scale by producing tiny marines. I think it's safe to say these upcoming marines will be the same scale as AI and AT.
Its been the idea all along.
Funny enough, despite being touted as '6mm', old epic infantry like marines just about fit through e.g. doorways on the AT Warlord. In pracitce, the theoretical difference between these scales does not matter that much, mostly because, as Pacific already explained, original Epic scale was all over the place anyway, at least when comparing different troop types.
Yup, they're so small that its not going to be a huge difference - but I remember someone somewhere saying they were playing around looking for the right scale for AT and settled on the 1/4 40k size which resulted in an 8mm marine.
There's no need to worry about it not matching the AI/AT scale because it's been scaled with marines in mind from the start.
Pacific wrote: It's funny that some of the most chilled places on the internet are the Epic FB groups, yet if you want to see an argument make a post about scale!
Painting Epic minis is just a means to an end. My real hobby is informing people on those FB scale posts that '6mm' or '8mm' isn't actually a scale, its just a size.
And then sitting back and watching the threads explode for the next three days. (Honestly- I was still getting multiple pings from someone trying to argue with me after my single comment stating as such, days after the original event. )
The title of the video is "battle on a new scale". The icons in the video are the same as the old Epic battle reports in White Dwarf. I will be stunned if it's not Epic. They've done everything but spell it out for you...
I'm sure it's been pointed out earlier, but anyone think the reason they designed nothing but tanks and super-heavies for Horus Heresy so far was to get designs they can scale down for epic?
Depends of the material intended to use. People seem to assume that if Epic returns, it will mean mainly plastic. I don't see why it would be the case.
They could perfectly release resin and using 3D files scaling down with a few detail modification, and it can be used with minimal work.
Pilum wrote: Just to stir the pot, let us not forget we've already had our first 'Epic' sized infantry(ish) model.
The poor wee pilots in the Grot Bommer's krooz missuls.
(Stretching? Yep. )
Yes I've been referencing those figures ever since the plane came out to little effect, here is a shot next to one of my gobblers, considering the relative pose sat down v crouched I feel confident that the figure scale will match modern "epic" figures no problem.
Sarouan wrote: Depends of the material intended to use. People seem to assume that if Epic returns, it will mean mainly plastic. I don't see why it would be the case.
They could perfectly release resin and using 3D files scaling down with a few detail modification, and it can be used with minimal work.
Did you read their warlord titan rescale? Took about time of designing from scratch.
Chris: The first step in debigulating* models is the simplest and most obvious – we rescale them. With models that were originally designed digitally, that’s really easy – I have a button for it on my computer! For older Titans, like the Reaver and the Warhound, it takes a bit more work.
Chris: The first step in debigulating* models is the simplest and most obvious – we rescale them. With models that were originally designed digitally, that’s really easy – I have a button for it on my computer! For older Titans, like the Reaver and the Warhound, it takes a bit more work.
Yeah the most time-consuming designs were the 'analogue' Reaver and Warhound models from almost 20 years ago. The digital Warlord design likely wasn't originally intended for a small scale, so took a little bit of time to review which details to preserve or adjust.
However any digital models developed after ~2017 may well have been done with the smaller Epic scale in mind. The designer will have been always considering how well each detail would translate to 25% size, how it would be split up for a sprue, etc. That massively speeds up translating the kit later on.
I have no doubt that all of the new plastic HH vehicles were modelled with an intent to produce in both scales eventually. I also wouldn't be surprised if the new full size plastic Cerastus had some preparation design work done alongside the AT scale version, which is why it has shown up unexpectedly a year into the new game.
Did you read their warlord titan rescale? Took about time of designing from scratch.
It"s not push button if you want to look good.
Requirement for 28mm and 6mm "bit" different.
There's a difference between a titan and a vehicle the size of a land raider. The amount of details and need to cut it in separate parts for model building isn't the same. By the way, a lot of old Epic vehicles were made in one piece thanks to that.
I already did rescale 28mm scale vehicles to 6mm. It's not that a lot of work once you know how to render details / make sure some parts aren't too thin or brittle.
Did you read their warlord titan rescale? Took about time of designing from scratch.
It"s not push button if you want to look good.
Requirement for 28mm and 6mm "bit" different.
There's a difference between a titan and a vehicle the size of a land raider. The amount of details and need to cut it in separate parts for model building isn't the same. By the way, a lot of old Epic vehicles were made in one piece thanks to that.
I already did rescale 28mm scale vehicles to 6mm. It's not that a lot of work once you know how to render details / make sure some parts aren't too thin or brittle.
The technology to do good-looking plastic Epic vehicles by casting stuff like turrrets and larger sponsons separately was definitely there even almost two decades ago; they did as much with the separate lance turrets for BFG hulls. The only thing that prevented them from doing so was the economic cost and their confused treatment of Specialist Games in general that defined that era, and 20 years of cost degression ought to do the trick for one of these problems.
Chris: The first step in debigulating* models is the simplest and most obvious – we rescale them. With models that were originally designed digitally, that’s really easy – I have a button for it on my computer! For older Titans, like the Reaver and the Warhound, it takes a bit more work.
Yes. And then they needed to do more work. By the time they had 6mm warlord time spent was about what 28mm warlord took.
Then they had to design it for plastic sprues. AFTER having done 6mm warlord. Which was lot more than just press button. that starting point. Then comes work to make it work in 6mm. Details just aren't same in 28mm and 6mm. If you just scale down/upscale details vanish and look silly.
I think they made tanks for HH because they wanted to sell tanks to HH customers. Everything GW does and says doesn't lead back to a possible Epic game for which we have zero real information.
odinfellhammer wrote: I'm surprised that we haven't gotten a follow-up teaser at least saying what the video is for
If they follow the same pattern as AT and AI we won’t see any more details until they’re 3-4 months away from release. I’d say we’re not likely to see anything more until August.
It would definitely help explain why there are so many 28mm scale HH vehicles appearing, which have left some in the community head-scratching, if the designs for both the large and small scale were done at the same time.
And big columns of tanks going at each other across a tabletop works a lot better at small scale than it does at large.
Pacific wrote: It would definitely help explain why there are so many 28mm scale HH vehicles appearing, which have left some in the community head-scratching, if the designs for both the large and small scale were done at the same time.
And big columns of tanks going at each other across a tabletop works a lot better at small scale than it does at large.
And a sponson redesign on the ones that remain in resin for the foreseeable future, to use an unified sponson sprue/system, which would coincidentally also involve standardizing stuff an touching up the models for the resin casts as well, which could also be a convenient time to do the port to another scale as well.
Are people legitimately arguing in here that whatever this is, it won't be at a small scale? The title of the teaser video was literally 'Battle on a New Scale', GW know exactly how people will interpret that and it's exactly how they want them to.
This is as stupid as those people who were arguing that TOW was going to be done at Warmaster style, when it was teased with square bases.
Londinium wrote: Are people legitimately arguing in here that whatever this is, won't be at a small scale? The title of the teaser video was literally 'Battle on a New Scale', GW know exactly how people will interpret that and it's exactly how they want them to.
This is as stupid as those people who were arguing that TOW was going to be done at Warmaster style, when it was teased with square bases.
We also do know that GW does keep their own product lines and products of licensees strictly separate at events and in their promotion (there are about 20 Warhammer-related computer games most tabletop wargamers have never heard of precisely because of that - note that these are not the same 20 games for everybody, the total number is probably more like 40) and barely ever mention them on their own website, so any suggestion that it could be a computer game or other digital product is pretty weak. It could be a HH boardgame, either a new one or a remake of one of their oldest games, but that would be pretty lame for a surprise teaser. And then again, we've had consistent Epic rumours that are distinct from the yearly Natfka/BoLS/SpikeyBits crap that makes the round since time immemorial for a while now.
Pacific wrote: It would definitely help explain why there are so many 28mm scale HH vehicles appearing, which have left some in the community head-scratching, if the designs for both the large and small scale were done at the same time.
And big columns of tanks going at each other across a tabletop works a lot better at small scale than it does at large.
Or small scale has no relevance on the release schedule for vehicles, but GW designed those kits to be highly modular and reuse a lot of sprues, and both give high margins and clear out a lot of resin SKUs from FW. The sponson swap was a case of having the sponson sprues which include new guns but are a cheaper to produce and easier to QA version of sponsons, so using them in resin vehicles they aren't swapping over to plastic fully yet saves casting time and increases margins on those kits.
Pacific wrote: It would definitely help explain why there are so many 28mm scale HH vehicles appearing, which have left some in the community head-scratching, if the designs for both the large and small scale were done at the same time.
And big columns of tanks going at each other across a tabletop works a lot better at small scale than it does at large.
Or small scale has no relevance on the release schedule for vehicles, but GW designed those kits to be highly modular and reuse a lot of sprues, and both give high margins and clear out a lot of resin SKUs from FW. The sponson swap was a case of having the sponson sprues which include new guns but are a cheaper to produce and easier to QA version of sponsons, so using them in resin vehicles they aren't swapping over to plastic fully yet saves casting time and increases margins on those kits.
Yeah, I don't get this line of thought at all. Clearly 30K is the bigger fish here (pun intended), and marketing decisions for that game will be about that game. And those decisions aren't even hard to understand, as you laid out.
Pacific wrote: It would definitely help explain why there are so many 28mm scale HH vehicles appearing, which have left some in the community head-scratching, if the designs for both the large and small scale were done at the same time.
And big columns of tanks going at each other across a tabletop works a lot better at small scale than it does at large.
Or small scale has no relevance on the release schedule for vehicles, but GW designed those kits to be highly modular and reuse a lot of sprues, and both give high margins and clear out a lot of resin SKUs from FW. The sponson swap was a case of having the sponson sprues which include new guns but are a cheaper to produce and easier to QA version of sponsons, so using them in resin vehicles they aren't swapping over to plastic fully yet saves casting time and increases margins on those kits.
Yes, that is probably more likely!
Tapping out of this thread now until some more genuine news appears..
As with the other, contradictory faeit rumours, there's a very low probability of any of them being true, unfortunately.
I'm just mentioning them because i've seen these come up on B&C and want to prevent cross-forum posting that gives these rumours a legitimacy they don't deserve by removing them from their original source more and more
Pacific wrote: Well, I guess they are at least honest with their YouTube name.
haha!
The Faeit site has been circulating the same (rubbish!) rumours for years and years, even if they are right this time no one should be patting them on the back for it! As much as I'd like to see Epic back, I'd like to see this being some one and done card-token board game for HH instead just to final remove any legitimacy from these so called 'rumour sites'.
If it does turn out to be epic, I think I'm just going to start my own awful rumour page. First rumour will be 'GW to release new models for some game in 2024'. Start cashing in on that ad revenue myself now!
Bolter & Chainsword so far have not gotten wise to it, can someone that has an account over there please tell them? I'm not getting another forums account
I’d be fine with Epic Models not being particularly detailed.
One of my many grumps about Epic 40K is the tried to cram way too much detail on to the tanks. Not only did many end up looking ridiculous, but also made quick and dirty paint jobs look bloody awful.
Now there is a happy medium between the plain look of the original stuff and the overdone Epic 40K of course. But I’d prefer the former. It also helps the game resemble a tactical hololith display rather than being played on the field. As ever not sure I explained that last bit very well.
I always thought the game works better with a level of abstraction, and its encouraged by how much detail you can see (with the naked eye) on a 6/8mm that is several feet away from you.
All we know is that we should have some more information soon regarding that teaser trailer shown at Warhammer Fest, and even then its from the "Age of Darkness".
Given that Warhammer Fest didn't cover every game in the GW library, we might be informed of another preview next week...if we're lucky.
The other thing to consider is that this might just be Adeptus Titanicus expanded, like Necromunda was last year, rather than going to a new edition. AT has been running on fumes since late 2021...
RazorEdge wrote: I can't see them bringing just a AT expansion with Infantry and Tanks.
An AT expansion that brings Infantry, Tanks and Planes will immediately be measured against the standards of Epic anyway, there is practically no benefit to doing not-Epic deliberately.
RazorEdge wrote: I can't see them bringing just a AT expansion with Infantry and Tanks.
An AT expansion that brings Infantry, Tanks and Planes will immediately be measured against the standards of Epic anyway, there is practically no benefit to doing not-Epic deliberately.
RazorEdge wrote: I can't see them bringing just a AT expansion with Infantry and Tanks.
An AT expansion that brings Infantry, Tanks and Planes will immediately be measured against the standards of Epic anyway, there is practically no benefit to doing not-Epic deliberately.
Remember when Shadows of Armageddon came out?
Do you mean 'Shadow War: Armageddon'? Otherwise, no
could see armoured vehicles into AT, treated in a similar way to knights, essentially one terminal card for a unit, could see that as very easy and a simple stepping stone to see if this will fly as a concept.
infantry units could be similar
produce a kit that is not too far off the 1st edition sprue in concept, landraider, couple of rhinos and some infantry on a frame
I’d be fine with Epic Models not being particularly detailed.
One of my many grumps about Epic 40K is the tried to cram way too much detail on to the tanks. Not only did many end up looking ridiculous, but also made quick and dirty paint jobs look bloody awful.
Now there is a happy medium between the plain look of the original stuff and the overdone Epic 40K of course. But I’d prefer the former. It also helps the game resemble a tactical hololith display rather than being played on the field. As ever not sure I explained that last bit very well.
You don't need to look any further than Aeronautica to see the new detail level. Based on that I would expect Rhino to be about 8-10 pieces.
You don't need to look any further than Aeronautica to see the new detail level. Based on that I would expect Rhino to be about 8-10 pieces.
The big difference between land vehicles and planes is that you don't especially need to make the bottom of the first if you'll never be seeing it on the battlefield. 1st edition rhinos were hollow for that reason (and also cheaper cost of production).
lord_blackfang wrote: You don't need to look any further than Aeronautica to see the new detail level. Based on that I would expect Rhino to be about 8-10 pieces.
Probably depends how much they reuse sprues. If there's a shared frame for building rhinos, predators, and vindicators that means more separate components are likely. However if they just repeat similar parts on distinct kits then maybe not.
The big difference between land vehicles and planes is that you don't especially need to make the bottom of the first if you'll never be seeing it on the battlefield. 1st edition rhinos were hollow for that reason (and also cheaper cost of production).
Ah, so now we know the reason for the Dorn's missing underplate! They upscaled an Epic model rather than doing it the other way around!
RazorEdge wrote: I can't see them bringing just a AT expansion with Infantry and Tanks.
An AT expansion that brings Infantry, Tanks and Planes will immediately be measured against the standards of Epic anyway, there is practically no benefit to doing not-Epic deliberately.
Its worth noting that the GW teaser specifically features a Titan element, and Adeptus Titanicus is also set in the Age of Darkness...
Given that AT has recently received a new compendium and reissued card packs, and the next likely release for the game is August( almost 3 months from now )...it could lean as much towards AT as it does either Space Marine or Epic 30K.
BTW, WHC has already ruled out planes in AT a few years ago. If that teaser had some representation of aerial units then we at least could have ruled out AT...
Isn't that video is the same as the last teaser? Seems to me it could be about anything. In fact "command legions" makes epic less likely, as epic is more about a couple of companies and a titan or two. A space marine legion is huge, way beyond what epic can handle. A titan legion, how many titans are that? Maybe its a smaller scale game than 6mm, maybe it's 2 or 3mm?
The teaser video clearly shows Horus heresy era sons of horus (icons) fighting imperial fists in an enclosed valley. Multiple & different size tactical map squares & rectangles are seen moving dynamically across the screen. Doubtful it’s titans “legions.” There is one square with gear & sword though. Hm. And card games don’t move. Yeah, leaning heavily towards epic 30k.
Grzzldgamerps5 wrote: The teaser video clearly shows Horus heresy era sons of horus (icons) fighting imperial fists in an enclosed valley. Multiple & different size tactical map squares & rectangles are seen moving dynamically across the screen. Doubtful it’s titans “legions.” There is one square with gear & sword though. Hm. And card games don’t move. Yeah, leaning heavily towards epic 30k.
It's not exactly gear & sword, it's the Collegia Titanica icon, the upper part is a bit hard to distinguish with the glow and static:
I'm no lore expert on titan legions, but from a quick search, a titan legion deployed 19 titans in one of the armageddon battles. That seems too many for the scale of epic and titanicus. A micro scale game would actually be very cool.
Gitdakka wrote: I'm no lore expert on titan legions, but from a quick search, a titan legion deployed 19 titans in one of the armageddon battles. That seems too many for the scale of epic and titanicus. A micro scale game would actually be very cool.
In the video, that valley could be any size
You're overthinking this. 'Command Legions' is probably just marketing faff, just like they claim that you can command 'Vast armies' in Warhammer 40k, even though typical forces are company-sized at most. Mostly because nobody in the pipeline has any idea about scale or military organizations, and what commanding armies actually entails (logistics, lots and lots of logistics)
Gitdakka wrote: Overthinking things are what forums are for!
Ah, touché - i'd like to see some game that was much bigger in scale yet than Epic, but imho it's unlikely because a) that's not a game GW could design competently (not that that hindered them in the past) and b) and more important: it's not conductive to selling miniatures, which is GW's main motivation and reason to exist.
I just can't see them releasing a commercial product that can be played with cardboard chits on a map.
I thought the fists in the teaser were meant to be represent "Lord of War" as shown on the Superheavy Detachment chart in 40k. But Imperial Fists make more sense. Anyone have more definitive evidence on this?
Well hm, after thinking more carefully about it... Fists vs SoH is literally the main conflict for HH 2.0. There is no way "Command legions" could be referring to anything other than space marine legions.
Given these details, I don't see how the graphic in the teaser could be depicting anything other than Epic 30k. They're straight up showing us HH 2.0 but "on a new scale" with titan support. Seriously, what else could it be?
Automatically Appended Next Post: It doesn't get any more blatant than this
Gitdakka wrote: Overthinking things are what forums are for!
Ah, touché - i'd like to see some game that was much bigger in scale yet than Epic, but imho it's unlikely because a) that's not a game GW could design competently (not that that hindered them in the past) and b) and more important: it's not conductive to selling miniatures, which is GW's main motivation and reason to exist.
I just can't see them releasing a commercial product that can be played with cardboard chits on a map.
That would be completely crap when hoping for Epic, but I do have a fondness for "Warmaster" which was the battle onboard the Vengeful Spirit.
I do remember it being a bit of a demo for the retail game based on the second or third battle for Armageddon, was was the same time Yarrick and Ghaz were released. They had both 40K and Epic rules in White Dwarf, which very much tickled my fancy at the time!
artific3r wrote: Well hm, after thinking more carefully about it... Fists vs SoH is literally the main conflict for HH 2.0. There is no way "Command legions" could be referring to anything other than space marine legions.
Given these details, I don't see how the graphic in the teaser could be depicting anything other than Epic 30k. They're straight up showing us HH 2.0 but "on a new scale" with titan support. Seriously, what else could it be?
Automatically Appended Next Post: It doesn't get any more blatant than this
Plastic titans? There was that mystery lords of war entry on the roadmap...
artific3r wrote: Well hm, after thinking more carefully about it... Fists vs SoH is literally the main conflict for HH 2.0. There is no way "Command legions" could be referring to anything other than space marine legions.
Given these details, I don't see how the graphic in the teaser could be depicting anything other than Epic 30k. They're straight up showing us HH 2.0 but "on a new scale" with titan support. Seriously, what else could it be?
Automatically Appended Next Post: It doesn't get any more blatant than this
Plastic titans? There was that mystery lords of war entry on the roadmap...
It's possible. I mean, if we're going to overanalyze that little teaser, the amount of units you see could easily represent a regular 30K battlefield.
Gitdakka wrote: Overthinking things are what forums are for!
Ah, touché - i'd like to see some game that was much bigger in scale yet than Epic, but imho it's unlikely because a) that's not a game GW could design competently (not that that hindered them in the past) and b) and more important: it's not conductive to selling miniatures, which is GW's main motivation and reason to exist.
I just can't see them releasing a commercial product that can be played with cardboard chits on a map.
That would be completely crap when hoping for Epic, but I do have a fondness for "Warmaster" which was the battle onboard the Vengeful Spirit.
I do remember it being a bit of a demo for the retail game based on the second or third battle for Armageddon, was was the same time Yarrick and Ghaz were released. They had both 40K and Epic rules in White Dwarf, which very much tickled my fancy at the time!
The 'Warmaster' card counter game in White Dwarf (not to be confused with fantasy Warmaster years later) was promoting the Horus Heresy boardgame IIRC, which came after the Battle for Armageddon boardgame.
I love those old Wargame Series games. Fantasy Flight used to sell a blinged-up, overcomplicated second edition of the Horus Heresy game with plastic bits. It's not impossible that it could make a return. You certainly do get to 'command legions' in that - a single counter represents an entire Titan Legion (or Space Marine Chapter in BFA).
I think Epic of some kind is more likely, though.
It would be pretty funny (in an exasperating way) if GW changes the size of the minis to encourage new purchases ... but goes smaller instead of bigger, to 3 mm or less, making even the AT titans incompatible.
While I still play it, I've found AT to be continually disappointing beyond it's initial launch back in 2018 and have long given up buying anything else for it. Epic is what I'm hoping for this year.
I think the reaction would be..."interesting", to say the least, if they went with 3mm!
I could see myself trying to paint and play 3mm or 2mm gw miniatures just out of curiosity.
Not my picture, but look at that glory. One base of minis is similar to an entire army in 28mm
SamusDrake wrote: I think the reaction would be..."interesting", to say the least, if they went with 3mm!
Well, regardless of what the forum posts would contain, the reaction would generally be to not make any purchases. People who buy the main set only to decide they were ripped off might even stop making purchases from GW's other product lines.
The more I think about it, the more I think existing collectors will be 'safe' with the official scale. GW would want something that lines up with their existing AI and AT ranges, as a complementary release. Actually, that graphic that shows the AT unit in the battle, shows their intent.
Either that, or my World Eater Legion are going to become one of the 'lost legions' of mini marines, who were struck from the records for being embarrassingly tiny!
That all depends on the pricing. If gw puts out a affordable option, most people wont bother with printing. People like the comfort of buying miniatures sets rather than crafting then themselves.
artific3r wrote: It would follow the same patterns as piracy in other media -- provide a superior service and most customers won't bother.
And superiority has many dimensions here - going into a GW or brick-and-mortar store and buying stuff is, for many people, superior to ordering on online platforms they never heard of before, sometimes with weird payment methods they don't have already or other potential problems like customs/taxes and so on. Knowing that you deal with a trusthworthy corporation or store is a thing many people desire, especially when shopping online for relatively pricy stuff.
Plastic titans? There was that mystery lords of war entry on the roadmap...
It's possible. I mean, if we're going to overanalyze that little teaser, the amount of units you see could easily represent a regular 30K battlefield.
What regular 30k units have long stick bases like that?
Didn't we just cover that a couple of pages ago? They aren't bases, they're military map symbols.
I think this *probably* is some kind of small-scale something, but it's still possible that some of you are setting yourself up for disappointment here.
The_Real_Chris wrote: I do think it will be the first game line to face very serious problems from 3D printing.
I agree, but the business plan is everything. The focus could be on blowing out a bunch of grand master edition-style boxed sets at launch. They'd probably manufacture a reasonable number and sell through those on the nostalgia play. And we have no product details of any kind. Maybe it's even a complete, finished game in a box. I think 3D printing becomes more of a threat as the level of continuing support increases.
I do think it's a little unrealistic to think that GW wouldn't premium price the miniatures. And if some of them are FW resin, look out. Just look at AT armiger pricing.
As mentioned previously, I'm not an Epic player and don't know who is doing the best models. However, one Google search of "Epic 40k 3d printed" and 5 minutes of browsing have already come up with plenty of suppliers.
Picking at random, I see a set of 3 tanks for £7-£9 as a single piece of resin, zero assembly required and free shipping. This is the current option and price for anyone who is serious about starting Epic but doesn't want the hassle of printing themselves.
This is the standard that currently exists and is available for purchase today. I don't know what GW intends to offer but I assume it will be a bloodbath for anyone currently selling within that niche.
odinsgrandson wrote: Would they do a relaunch of epic in a new 40k edition year?
Most things point to it being a "boxed game" entry. Those things aren't really any sort of competition for 40k new edition.
I wouldn't expect a new Epic to compete with 40k sales all that much. But it might compete with design and development time for both the rules and new miniatures.
I know a lot of Blood Bowl players have been due for a new team or two and are blaming new 40k for the delay.
We used to think that the boxed games were all about getting a little financial boost in years when there wasn't a new edition of 40k or WFB. I haven't looked into it, but I'm guessing that pattern hasn't held over the years.
That really makes me wonder how big we should expect a new Epic 40,000 to be.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mozzamanx wrote: As mentioned previously, I'm not an Epic player and don't know who is doing the best models. However, one Google search of "Epic 40k 3d printed" and 5 minutes of browsing have already come up with plenty of suppliers.
Picking at random, I see a set of 3 tanks for £7-£9 as a single piece of resin, zero assembly required and free shipping. This is the current option and price for anyone who is serious about starting Epic but doesn't want the hassle of printing themselves.
This is the standard that currently exists and is available for purchase today. I don't know what GW intends to offer but I assume it will be a bloodbath for anyone currently selling within that niche.
It is up in the air, right?
I mean, anyone who is listing their products as "Epic 40,000 STL" might get a C&D. But if they've figured out a way to express this in generic terms, it would be harder to prove (if they sculpted their own STLs rather than scan old Epic minis).
Has GW been sending out a lot of lawsuits to STL providers lately?
Plastic titans? There was that mystery lords of war entry on the roadmap...
It's possible. I mean, if we're going to overanalyze that little teaser, the amount of units you see could easily represent a regular 30K battlefield.
What regular 30k units have long stick bases like that?
Didn't we just cover that a couple of pages ago? They aren't bases, they're military map symbols.
I think this *probably* is some kind of small-scale something, but it's still possible that some of you are setting yourself up for disappointment here.
If you want to get pedantic about it fine, but in the context of GW games, have they ever used that style of military map symbol for anything other than regimented blocks of models with square bases?
Yes! I think I saw a 40k batrep in a white dwarf, back in the days when ork stick bombaz was a unit. A big unit of those was represented by a rectangle!
Yes they were, very similar to that with individual units (titans, super heavies) as circles.
So were WHFB battle reports though, so perhaps one indicator is that it is a 'base' of units. Are we setting ourselves up for a fall here? New Apocalypse 30k, where you get movement trays for your squad of 20 Mk6 marines
Hi there. Well to my point of view...if they are going to remake epic...then it should use all factions even primaris...to sell more products and make a community like kill team...but if we are basing just in horus (that looks like marines painted in two colors) then it could be just a board game.
Theres even a web who posted the supposedly contents of the boxes and just pure marines (if you paint it yellow then are good guys and if you paint it red are bad guys...yay)
And i hope is not a stupid video game lol i preffer tiny units than big ones....hell i stop playing 40k becouse primaris screw my 10k point army of bluemarines....
Some big weight there with Boltgun, if they are headlining that above Space Marine 2 and the new Total War, which will probably be one of the biggest PC games of the year!
tauist wrote: I don't get Boltgun, it feels like a small indie game but yet is drummed up like they are expecting it to be a AAA title?
Personally, I have zero lust towards reteo games such as Boltgun.. if I want to play retro games, I fire up my emulators
It’s entirely possible they just really enjoyed it themselves. I mean, Doom gone 40K has an appeal being retro, because even today, Doom 2 remains a fun run and gun FPS.
It's got top billing because it's out next week and sales in the first week or two are where game studios make the majority of their profit. I'm amped for it, it looks like a lot of fun and it's reasonably priced.
tauist wrote: I don't get Boltgun, it feels like a small indie game but yet is drummed up like they are expecting it to be a AAA title?
Personally, I have zero lust towards reteo games such as Boltgun.. if I want to play retro games, I fire up my emulators
I think it's simply that you can buy Boltgun now, while you can buy Space Marine II sometime later, i.e. not-now. Nothing prevents them from doing a hype event for SM2 later, but with their general approach they always favor the one bird in the hand over two in the bush.
tauist wrote: I don't get Boltgun, it feels like a small indie game but yet is drummed up like they are expecting it to be a AAA title?
Personally, I have zero lust towards reteo games such as Boltgun.. if I want to play retro games, I fire up my emulators
I think it's simply that you can buy Boltgun now, while you can buy Space Marine II sometime later, i.e. not-now. Nothing prevents them from doing a hype event for SM2 later, but with their general approach they always favor the one bird in the hand over two in the bush.
yeah, fair enough.. at GW, the product coming out next is always the "best thing ever", so only logical the same would apply to licensed games
MaxT wrote: It’s only fair to their third parties too - get your game to release, you get your time in the sun.
In the gaming industry you get extremely short windows for making your sales anyway if you're not a triple-AAA title mainstream press and streamers can't shut up about - a couple of weeks when your reviews are somewhere on the front pages of magazines and portals, and that's it. You can later do tentpole DLC or sales, but the period immediately around the release is still the most important by far, and that's when you need all the PR you can get.
“The work on Epic 30k began in 2018. Epic Horus Heresy was the last production by GW with Jervis Johnson involved. Before he left GW in 2021, he was one of the Designers and an important advisor for those who continued to work further on the game. He also was the biggest advocate within the company to bring Epic 30k back. This new Epic is his Baby like the past “Editions” were and will be part of his legacy.”
“The work on Epic 30k began in 2018. Epic Horus Heresy was the last production by GW with Jervis Johnson involved. Before he left GW in 2021, he was one of the Designers and an important advisor for those who continued to work further on the game. He also was the biggest advocate within the company to bring Epic 30k back. This new Epic is his Baby like the past “Editions” were and will be part of his legacy.”
Unfortunately that also comes from Faeit212, aka Fake101 The chance that it's just straight made-up is very high.
A starter set would presumably be reprinted as necessary. In any case, if this is a new game roll-out as expected, the components will be available separately as well, which means that the starter box won't be required.
Eumerin wrote: A starter set would presumably be reprinted as necessary. In any case, if this is a new game roll-out as expected, the components will be available separately as well, which means that the starter box won't be required.
Unless you wanted to get them at a massive discount in the way of a boxed starter, lol...
GW has done different sized box sets for different games. The current HH box has a huge number of models but is expensive. AT and Necromunda both had big expensive boxes, but those were replaced (eventually) by smaller sets with less contents.
My guess is that there will be a big box of lots of models (they are small, so maybe a ridiculous amount of units) plus terrain (maybe one new type plus the current buildings). The big box will sell out like the AT one did, and then a starter box will be released (eventually) with about half the contents for 2/3 the price.
I don't think existing terrain will be used. New terrain would help boost sales by people who only want the terrain and would sell the units to help cover their costs. You lose that if you include terrain that's already available.
Breotan wrote: I don't think existing terrain will be used. New terrain would help boost sales by people who only want the terrain and would sell the units to help cover their costs. You lose that if you include terrain that's already available.
Plus, the existing terrain that GW sells is built around the sorts of things that might interfere with a fight between titans. Infantry and vehicles are much lower to the ground, and you can have buildings that aren't massive structures, but will still provide decent cover.
AT and Necromunda but had big expensive boxes, but those were replaced (eventually) by smaller sets with less contents.
I disagree on AT. The original starter was limited because there was only one titan and one knight available. So the starter had two warlords and half a dozen knights. The current starter (sold out, of course) has two reavers, two warhounds, and two cerastus knights. Fewer individual models, it's true. But it's fewer knights in exchange for more titans. And the variety seems more useful for players who are just starting the game. The original Grand Master edition did contain terrain that's not found in the current starter. But aside from that, I'd argue that the current starter is better for new players.
Breotan wrote: I don't think existing terrain will be used. New terrain would help boost sales by people who only want the terrain and would sell the units to help cover their costs. You lose that if you include terrain that's already available.
I can see a mix of the old terrain with some new sprues to make ruins and damaged buildings. The old terrain is quite good, no reason not to use it to pad out a box and make it fit in existing AT table collections.
RazorEdge wrote: Every EPIC relaunch in the Past had a Thicc big Boxed Set. Can't see why this shouldn't happen again.
Fingers crossed!
Some sort of set that is a reference to the original 1st edition HH/Space Marine boxset might be a possibility.
If I had to make a prediction I would say a sprue with a tactical, heavy/special weapon and command infantry. Then perhaps another sprue with rhinos and landraiders.
For terrain, if that is included, perhaps some plastic ruins? To differentiate from the larger, Titan-useful terrain that we have already seen from AT (although I can attest that terrain is also great for Epic!)
I disagree on AT. The original starter was limited because there was only one titan and one knight available.
Well they could have put reavers and warhounds but opted to spread releases.
But the 2 others came so soon if gw had wanted they could have used them too.
But get full price for most over discount also terrain good there as more people buy full price titans than terrain. Good to bulk up discount box value without hurting full price sales.
When I got 1st edition Space Marine it was a single frame, several times over, each woith
2x land raider, when they came in units of two
4x rhino
8x stands of infantry, all identical
it worked, it worked well, was two armies or one larger army depending how you painted it.
would not be hard these days to do better in the same sized frames
yes its marine v marine, but there you go - a frame with Rhino and land raiders, and a few bits for rhino versions then something like the old Mk VII frame with different marines/bikes etc seems likely
whatever they do they need to do it soon and do it well or 3d printing will eat their lunch and make it far less viable
leopard wrote: was two armies or one larger army depending how you painted it.
I remember it fondly, I was 10, and I painted it poorly.
remember buying two copies, I wanted the buildings, with Christmas money, got "Mighty Empires" at the same time
the dark blue ones got a blue drybrush then silver tracks and toilet seat logos of variable quality*
the green ones got a blue/grey then lighter grey as space wolves, with a recognisable yellow & read wolfs head on the door, making them the only space wolf army I have ever owned. chosen because I had the colours from the Space Marine paint set.
the amount of paint those poor poor models got over the next few years was terrible, I think they ended up a sort of desert yellow colour
What I'm curious about is how they'll set up the infantry. In earlier editions, SM units were formed mostly in the same manner as 40k Tactical squads - one heavy weapon per two stands of regular guys. In EA, Jervis changed this to one heavy weapon per stand. The 40k scale HH introduced SM units which deviate significantly from this format.
Yes, but what about the Tactical Support Squads or the various specialty squads that different Legions had? I wonder if Forge World will produce these in enough detail to matter.
Well you can 3D print them with some pretty excellent detail, so unless GW want 3D printing to dominate the market they will want to at least try to make something that represents those units.
- tactical stand (5 bolter marines)
- support stand (4 bolter marines & 1 heavy weapon)
- assault stand (5 assault marines)
- heavy weapon stand (3 bolter marines & 2 heavy weapons)
- command stand (4 marines & 1 commander - exact mix could vary though)
in the early versions of the box set these were the same models, on four coloured bases, later they needed some sort of marking added and eventually the actual models came out with nowhere near enough heavy weapon models
have seen very nice stl files in 6mm that would give you a range of 5-10 man squads with all models slightly different and every weapon option you could wish for, plus various legion specific models
support stands were basically the other "half" of a tactical squad initially, a tactical detachment being half and half with tactical stands IIRC
keep in mind it tended to be simplified, tactical stands had bolters, support squads had support weapons, devastator stands had heavier stuff and assault stands had the curious battle cry "equipped with jump packs"
The other important thing is that Epic is quite abstract by its nature, so the ratio of heavy weapon guys to bolter guys has changed over the years, and in practice you see different stuff on the tabletop.
As long as it's made clear to your opponent then it's fine.
A new version of Epic could get expensive pretty quick.
Looking at AT-18 and AA as a guide, I can see 6 Rhinos going for $45 usd and upgrades such as the Vindicator, Whirlwind, Predators, etc. going at the same price for four. I can also see them selling a Company's worth of SM at that price. Buildings and objectives would likely be set up identically to stuff already released.
IG would likely follow a similar price structure for their stuff.
So, what models (and numbers) do people expect to see in a large box release costing around $300-ish usd?
Not expecting much to be honest as GW have continually passed up on easy-wins for both AT and AI. I also still have my doubts as to whether this is really a new rule set or just Adeptus Titanicus expanded to include tanks and troops.
But either way, we could be looking at some sprues from the current AT terrain sets and obviously marines with land raiders and rhinos. Probably a pair warhounds and some knights too.
I'm guessing whatever it is to be called Adeptus Astartes: The Horus Heresy.
SamusDrake wrote: Not expecting much to be honest as GW have continually passed up on easy-wins for both AT and AI. I also still have my doubts as to whether this is really a new rule set or just Adeptus Titanicus expanded to include tanks and troops
If they go with the latter, that is exactly what was done in 1989 with the first edition of Space Marine
Are there any longbeards here who played it? I started with Space Marine 2nd edition (the one with Ultramarines on the cover) which apparently was a vastly simplified version of the original. From what I have read, the original had a crazy level of detail (rules for infantry ambushing armour amongst buildings and things like that) and took a very long time to play.
Moopy wrote: AT could get an expansion for just super heavy tanks. Wouldn't be that far off from knights.
Anything else would fall into Epic.
Why bother working on an older system when you can put everything in a new, though.
If you want to mix titans and tanks, Epic is litterally what it's made for. And if you want to play titans only, that's the sole reason of AT.
It doesn't hurt to release rules for both game systems where appropriate. 40k copes with getting PDF downloads for Kill Teams so people can use the same kit for multiple purposes. Super heavy tanks can be easily represented using terminal cards very similar to the current knight rules without any major overhauls to the core game.
Having said that I hope they use Epic as opportunity to develop new titan units and produce kits that would be harder to justify solely for AT. For example Rapier scout titans will naturally lean towards an anti-infantry or anti-tank role due to carrying lighter weapons. Another game system gives GW the chance to design kits like that where the majority options are suitable for Epic, but there is still a reason to buy the model for AT too.
RazorEdge wrote: Remind that we had rumors about that AT will stay a supported System when Epic returns.
Easy to do, it's on life support already!
No idea what a 'supported product' would even mean in the context of AT - probably keeping the Compendium and other cardboard products available alongside the models, and eventually releasing more chaosified titan parts or models; other than that, the game is in a state that you could reasonably call 'complete'. You could do more variants, more weapons, and of course Imperator-class titans, but it's not actually lacking anything.
A friend of mine had the original, and we played it a bit. He also purchased the rules supplement with the rules for things like the Capitol Imperialis and drop pods, though I don't think we ever used any of those rules
I don't remember super detailed rules, but it's been a long time since I played it.
Pacific wrote: Are there any longbeards here who played it? I started with Space Marine 2nd edition (the one with Ultramarines on the cover) which apparently was a vastly simplified version of the original. From what I have read, the original had a crazy level of detail (rules for infantry ambushing armour amongst buildings and things like that) and took a very long time to play.
Basic game had a bit more detail than you'd find these days, rules for vehicles ramming each other and infantry, firing arcs and turns for vehicles, lots of modifiers and tables.
Then you got the Advanced rules with regrouping of dead units, 6 different situational heroic actions, hidden units, and artillery support.
I only ever used the basic rules, the advanced rules seemed a bit much.
Moopy wrote: AT could get an expansion for just super heavy tanks. Wouldn't be that far off from knights.
Anything else would fall into Epic.
Why bother working on an older system when you can put everything in a new, though.
Adding new content for an existing game is never a bad thing, especially when those new models could play double duty depending on the rule set you want to use. Easy $$.
RazorEdge wrote: lol, Valrak announced a Video for Epic next week...
Very well, he seems - at the moment - to be the only rumourmonger with a reliable source, and if Epic arrives in late Autumn like he said several times before the earlier stuff for it should now move into the ~3-4 month window his source seems to have insight in.
UK Games Expo this coming weekend, I was hoping GW would announce some specialist games stuff like they used too over these events. Maybe it could happen with a preview of epic, warcom could announce something this week as they made no mention of UKGE in this evenings sunday preview.
SonofHades wrote: UK Games Expo this coming weekend, I was hoping GW would announce some specialist games stuff like they used too over these events. Maybe it could happen with a preview of epic, warcom could announce something this week as they made no mention of UKGE in this evenings sunday preview.
Probably not, GW is doing 10th edition demo game livestreams from US Open Kansas at the same time as the UKGE happens, they probably do not want to detract from that:
We’ll be livestreaming the top-table action as usual – but there are a few treats for avid Warhammer 40,000 fans. From 7pm CDT (1am BST) on Thursday the 1st of June and Friday the 2nd of June, we’ll be hosting full 2,000 point games from the new edition. There’ll be expert commentators on hand to break down the action and discuss the new datasheets for each and every unit that appears.
RazorEdge wrote: Didn't Valrak talked about late Summer when he mentioned Epic?
The turn of phrase he used was 'It's coming at the end of the year' which could mean a release or an announcment, and GW itself is a bit shifty in their season designation.
It's noted in the Rumour Roundup thread, 03/15/2023:
- Epic coming at the end of the year according to sources he highly trusts Pending
What’s that about? We’ll have more information soon.
Its interesting to note that today is now four weeks since the announcement at Warhammer Fest. Tomorrow would be a quiet time to share more information...
What’s that about? We’ll have more information soon.
Its interesting to note that today is now four weeks since the announcement at Warhammer Fest. Tomorrow would be a quiet time to share more information...
...unless its another sodding Necromunda reveal.
Very much doubt they'll say much before Leviathan goes up for sale, the marketing focus is heavily on that right now.
Gencon or Nova seem like ideal timing for further news, especially if the release date is in the typical November slot. Hopefully there's another teaser later in June/July.
RazorEdge wrote: Didn't Valrak talked about late Summer when he mentioned Epic?
The turn of phrase he used was 'It's coming at the end of the year' which could mean a release or an announcment, and GW itself is a bit shifty in their season designation.
It's noted in the Rumour Roundup thread, 03/15/2023:
He also predicted the teaser video for it based on what he's been told about the schedule for it.
Very much doubt they'll say much before Leviathan goes up for sale, the marketing focus is heavily on that right now.
Gencon or Nova seem like ideal timing for further news, especially if the release date is in the typical November slot. Hopefully there's another teaser later in June/July.
Not much point in showing the teaser at Warhammer Fest, in that case. If a November release then they might as well have started the hype in August.
Not shooting the messenger though, as today was indeed just a single 40K article on Warhammer Community.
Very much doubt they'll say much before Leviathan goes up for sale, the marketing focus is heavily on that right now.
Gencon or Nova seem like ideal timing for further news, especially if the release date is in the typical November slot. Hopefully there's another teaser later in June/July.
Not much point in showing the teaser at Warhammer Fest, in that case. If a November release then they might as well have started the hype in August.
Not shooting the messenger though, as today was indeed just a single 40K article on Warhammer Community.
They might be planning to start the hype later on, that teaser only makes any sense to people that are extremely clued in and following the rumour mills. A couple of months between teaser and announcment, and then real previews some weeks after that works out fine, they would not want to detract from 10th edition too much, but the also need to actually show and release things that are not that.
Just a minor point that has probably already been noted, but ... while browsing old White Dwarf issues (206 to be precise), I noticed that the tagline "War on a new scale" was used to promote the release of Epic 40,000 back in the day.
There are bags of 6mm games out there already where you can utilise all your old stuff - why wait for GW to re-release? Is there really that large a scene of people playing in GW stores that insist on GW stuff?
There are bags of 6mm games out there already where you can utilise all your old stuff - why wait for GW to re-release? Is there really that large a scene of people playing in GW stores that insist on GW stuff?
Because I'm in this hobby because of GW and their IP, and I want to play with official GW models without breaking the bank (2nd edition Space Marine stuff is hard to find on ebay, and is always overpriced). You do you.
Because I'm in this hobby because of GW and their IP, and I want to play with official GW models without breaking the bank (2nd edition Space Marine stuff is hard to find on ebay, and is always overpriced). You do you.
I believe the question aimed at those who already own old Space Marine / Epic armies. If only missing the rules then NetEpic or Horizon Wars are good alternatives.
There are bags of 6mm games out there already where you can utilise all your old stuff - why wait for GW to re-release? Is there really that large a scene of people playing in GW stores that insist on GW stuff?
If I tell the people at my FLGS (who only play 40k) that they can play a 6mm game where they have to 3d print everything and the rules are either 20 years old and unsupported or online community rulesets, they will roll their eyes into the back of their head and try to forget I ever walked into the store. No store within 100 miles of me has any playerbase for games that aren't currently produced, supported and sold in the stores. We don't really have gaming clubs like the UK has, which make those other games much easier to run.
There are bags of 6mm games out there already where you can utilise all your old stuff - why wait for GW to re-release? Is there really that large a scene of people playing in GW stores that insist on GW stuff?
Fair question.
For folks playing games with their own group, you're right.
However, a current set of published rules sets the foundation for folks from different groups to play together with no issues.
Till the new Epic comes out, you can make the argument that Net-Epic is that rule set, but after...
And some folks don't want to re-base their minis twice.
artific3r wrote: I just want new Epic models on par with the new AT/Aeronautica kits.
Yeah, I have loads of old Epic models but it's like standard definition versus 4k when placed next to recent plastic kits for AT. Looking forward to seeing how they look with 30+ years of improving technology.
Plus while my local club does have several AT players, most of them will only consider buying into Epic if official plastics are available. 3D printing (and especially designs shared via word-of-mouth) is sadly a bit too much effort for many folks.
to be honest I'd play 405 line black and white if the rules were where they needed to be
GW are likely to produce some very nice models, this is not an issue I'm bothered about.
I also agree a "supported" and actually available game is something stores will support more than the current situation
3d printing is fine, if you have one and the time to use it, or know someone who has, otherwise its the locked filing cabinet with "beward of the leopard" syndrome
artific3r wrote: I just want new Epic models on par with the new AT/Aeronautica kits.
Agreed, I have a lot of old epic models, from 1st Ed to epic 40K, but I want to paint and play with something that looks correctly sized with my AT and AI.
I love the GW aesthetic, and while there are proxies, they just don’t look right for me.
I could 3D print, but my hobby time is limited, and 3D printing is a whole extra hobby.
GW plastic epic gives me everything I want, sure I pay a premium for that, but even if I ditch the rules I still get to paint what I want to paint.
Sorry for people that get sick of me posting this, but if you want to play Epic right now, there is a pretty healthy (and generally very friendly) community, lots of free rules, great miniatures available (either proxy or 3D prints).
There is a thread here on Dakka to help, or join the Epic Middlehammer facebook group which has many thousands of members and tons of hobby content.
My Crusade-era World Eaters Legion in the spoiler below. This was made entirely using Vanguard miniatures and some 3D prints as well as some classic (and modern) GW stuff. So even if GW drop a bombshell and reveal that this is just some mobile game they have been hinting at, you can find a way (and if I can do it, anyone can!)
Pacific wrote: Sorry for people that get sick of me posting this, but if you want to play Epic right now, there is a pretty healthy (and generally very friendly) community, lots of free rules, great miniatures available (either proxy or 3D prints).
There is a thread here on Dakka to help, or join the Epic Middlehammer facebook group which has many thousands of members and tons of hobby content.
My Crusade-era World Eaters Legion in the spoiler below. This was made entirely using Vanguard miniatures and some 3D prints as well as some classic (and modern) GW stuff. So even if GW drop a bombshell and reveal that this is just some mobile game they have been hinting at, you can find a way (and if I can do it, anyone can!)
Spoiler:
Just wanted to echo this. We've been really welcomed into this community, and my wife and I are awed by the excellent fans/players, and just how great and healthy the game is. Don't wait on GW if you're on the fence!
RazorEdge wrote:lol, Valrak announced a Video for Epic next week...
which still didn't happened...
Pacific wrote:Sorry for people that get sick of me posting this, but if you want to play Epic right now, there is a pretty healthy (and generally very friendly) community, lots of free rules, great miniatures available (either proxy or 3D prints).
There is a thread here on Dakka to help, or join the Epic Middlehammer facebook group which has many thousands of members and tons of hobby content.
My Crusade-era World Eaters Legion in the spoiler below. This was made entirely using Vanguard miniatures and some 3D prints as well as some classic (and modern) GW stuff. So even if GW drop a bombshell and reveal that this is just some mobile game they have been hinting at, you can find a way (and if I can do it, anyone can!)
This:
tauist wrote:Because I'm in this hobby because of GW and their IP, and I want to play with official GW models without breaking the bank (2nd edition Space Marine stuff is hard to find on ebay, and is always overpriced). You do you.
Yep that is fair enough and completely your prerogative RazorEdge. I think a lot of people think similarly. But, my post was just to make people aware that there are other options available, in the event that they didn't know of it.
RazorEdge wrote:lol, Valrak announced a Video for Epic next week...
which still didn't happened...
IIRC that was said on a sunday, so it might have meant the coming week, not this one Depending on where you're from, you might be familiar with formulations like 'Montag in acht Tagen'
Spoiler:
It's an expression monstly found in southern Germany, that is generally used to say e.g. 'The monday after next monday', irrespective of it being actually eight days. Very khornate if you think about it.
Pacific wrote: Yep that is fair enough and completely your prerogative RazorEdge. I think a lot of people think similarly. But, my post was just to make people aware that there are other options available, in the event that they didn't know of it.
Oh, I print Stuff my self, and if the plan to give us Mk6 Marines, I will print some in Mk2 to Mk4 Armours.
I really hope they do go with Beakie marines, and it would definitely bring things around full circle, as that was the first ever epic marine in first edition Space Marine.
Since Tauist asked here is a Mk6 guy, but from a print (this is a 'field police' unit, ref. the old Rogue Trader fluff). I would love a reasonably priced plastic sprue of something similar.
One of my favourite moments from a recent game was these guys minding an auxiliary unit of Beastmen - they were taking some severe casualties but the field police unit was keeping them in line. Unluckily for them a Gargant belly-gun shot came through a building and landed squarely on the field police unit. The Beastmen then decided to withdraw at that point..
Pacific wrote: I really hope they do go with Beakie marines, and it would definitely bring things around full circle, as that was the first ever epic marine in first edition Space Marine.
Since Tauist asked here is a Mk6 guy, but from a print (this is a 'field police' unit, ref. the old Rogue Trader fluff). I would love a reasonably priced plastic sprue of something similar.
Those look very cool. As to the bolded part, well... we're talking GW here ^^
I like the idea of a split box between imperial army & marines, it's even better than just having marines only. You can either split it or combine it, but you still get models for both factions in a singular box.
And the rules being based on earlier editions, but being brand new, that could work ok, KT21 is a great example of a successful rules refresh from the recent GW era.
Late Summer sounds kind of early, I'd reckon early autumn at the earliest
RazorEdge wrote: There is a saying that GW Staff got a ban for making Holidays in October...
Where is that one coming from?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Interesting tidbit from the Adeptus Titanicus thread:
twentypence wrote: Haven't seen this mentioned elsewhere, but apologies if it has.
The graviton and conversion weapons for AT have SKUs with product range 26 rather than 03 which the rest of the AT range uses.
In my mind it would be an odd choice to do that unless GW are planning to have the Epic and AT ranges continue as separate ranges with future releases for both.
The new rumours for Epic of the Space Marine vs Imperial Army makes sense looking at it from the view of aircraft as well.
Aeronautica Imperialis gave us Imperial Navy aircraft and Space Marine ones, including flyers that were around at the time of the Heresy.
As the models exist already I can see them adding a few flyers for both in the game, whether in a starter box or separate addition later on. Easy inclusion really, helps fill out force slots faster and makes for a great combined arms look too.
Personally I'd rather have the Imperial Army and Space Marines working together instead of against but maybe this is just to start with. Maybe there will be rules to use as allies in the future. Maybe there could be options like in the Horus Heresy where your force could be loyalist or traitor.
Either way it's good news if true because having 2 factions to start with is better than one. Having options is better.
Personally I'd rather have the Imperial Army and Space Marines working together instead of against but maybe this is just to start with. Maybe there will be rules to use as allies in the future. Maybe there could be options like in the Horus Heresy where your force could be loyalist or traitor.
If the info is accurate, my suspicion is that you'll be able to use both, like you could in Epic (though maybe only with one as your core, and the other as attached auxiliaries). But the box is being sold as a two-player starter, so the advertising is going to be marines versus army, with one player taking the marines, and the other player taking the army.
That's assuming that the rumor is correct, of course. Valrak does note at the start of the video that everything he says should be taken with extra large heapings of salt. And it should be noted that he's not wearing his foil hat (which is his indication that he believes the current rumor is particularly reliable).
Moopy wrote: My only hope is they don't change the base size half way through the game's life. That was awful.
When did that happen?
Do you mean when Epic 40,000 switched to long rectangular bases instead of the old squares? The rules for that edition said you could keep using the old bases if you wanted to--both had advantages and disadvantages under the new ruleset.
Unfortunately GW forgot to explain that in White Dwarf. (It was hidden away at the back of one of the rulebooks in the boxed game.) A lot of people probably assumed they had to rebase all their stuff even though they didn't, and refused to play. Just one of many missteps made with that edition.
I put my Epic 40K Orks on 20 mm circular boardgame counters.
From two user from a german Forum, one is working for a Warhammer Store (he says) and the other has a friend at a Store (he says). Both said independent from each other (in different Threads) that for GW Staff it is forbidden to get free for the full October.
Saw also comments on YT Videos about Epic or TOW with the same Topic.
That video image is the most click-baity preview photo I have seen in a while. All its missing is the shocked face in one corner.
Marines Vs Imperial Army.. doesn't seem right. Although IA make sense at the scale (and Guard were always one of the more popular armies in Epic) how many of the major engagements in the HH book series have been Marine Vs Army? How much imagery is there for the IA? I have been wrong about a number of things recently (genuinely didn't think the space Dwarves would return) but too many things about that don't seem right. I call (testing Dakka swear filter for British slurs) bollocks
Pacific wrote: That video image is the most click-baity preview photo I have seen in a while. All its missing is the shocked face in one corner.
Marines Vs Imperial Army.. doesn't seem right. Although IA make sense at the scale (and Guard were always one of the more popular armies in Epic) how many of the major engagements in the HH book series have been Marine Vs Army? How much imagery is there for the IA? I have been wrong about a number of things recently (genuinely didn't think the space Dwarves would return) but too many things about that don't seem right. I call (testing Dakka swear filter for British slurs) bollocks
IA have been referenced frequently during the Siege of Terra at least.
I think it's a fairly welcome surprise that the new game might not just be a mirror match as expected. Especially if you can mix & match forces to include traitor guard & marines vs loyalist guard & marines too.
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