This thread is simple, see in the few games of Warhammer I have played I have come to formulate opinions on specific factions.
I'm sure people with more experience would probably have more to say, but for me it's actually simple
Eldar...
Albeit in my first match I did have to fight a guy who was using a Wraith knight, which is a bit overkill, and I didn't fully know how to play really?
But having a freaking Wraith Knight to deal with was pretty freaking rough to say the least..
I hated them.
I also went into a Kill Team match with an entire team made of Warp Spiders once.
So that was freaking cancer, so all this together has made me form a certain resentment towards the space elves. (Dark Eldar are okay)
A cool concept ruined by being treated like a 12 year old's bad internet fanfic trying to stuff every cool trope into one package and failing miserably at it, with some of the most absurd, contradictory and stupid fluff, naming conventions, models and rules ever seen.
Close tie between Orks and Dark Eldar(or whatever they call themselves nowadays).
I hate Orks because their level of stupidity, and I strongly dislike the models. Their fluff is sound at least. The Dark Eldar, well, I think BDSM in space is dumb, and I dislike their fluff a lot. Plus, their models are mega-dumb to me.
A cool concept ruined by being treated like a 12 year old's bad internet fanfic trying to stuff every cool trope into one package and failing miserably at it, with some of the most absurd, contradictory and stupid fluff, naming conventions, models and rules ever seen.
They are the very definition of "try-hard".
Hah, my girlfriend actually plays them.
Though she doesn't know much of the lore, only the basics and that they are Space Vikings and she is super into Viking Metal
A cool concept ruined by being treated like a 12 year old's bad internet fanfic trying to stuff every cool trope into one package and failing miserably at it, with some of the most absurd, contradictory and stupid fluff, naming conventions, models and rules ever seen.
They are the very definition of "try-hard".
Yeah, the Space Wolfy Wolf lovers of Planet Wolf from 2017 barely resemble the Space Wolves of my 2nd edition codex. Some of the models are pretty awesome though.
Definitely Space Wolves. I usually can't talk shop with a Wolf player because they're too busy telling me about their fluff they came up with for Wolf Lord McBarkenfarten and how awesome and badass his Thunderwolf Mr Fluffikillius is. Meanwhile, I just remember the fat Space Wolf from the books.
They're not a translation of a fantasy concept into sci-fi, like most other armies, they're literally a fantasy army in sci-fi. Since daemons can clearly wield weapons, there's no reason they couldn't have daemonic guns to go with their daemonic swords.
IG, I like breaking immersion from real life, and they are the closest to what we have now. The models are boring (humans and tanks) and its terribly unfun to play against, with no engagement with the enemy, static gunlines aren't fun to play against. Games take forever playing against them too.
MarsNZ wrote: Crons: awful fluff, shoehorned into every major galactic event possible. Mostly boring model line. Terrible ingame rules.
Wolves: for the same reasons everyone else dislikes wolves.
It would be nice if we got shoehorned into events, sadly we only got cameos. Fluff could definitely use some work.
As for me space wolves is an easy pick, as someone said pretentious tryhards. Blood angels would probably also make that list, linkin park blasting space vampires, whose entire gimmick is avoiding extinction by the smallest margins so they can go be sad some more. The fact that they are planning on retconning the whole horus heresy for saguinus makes me want to punch puppies. As for unfun to play against imperial knights are decidedly meh, either you have the tools to take them down and you win, or you don't and you lose.
Space Marines, because of what GW made them into, and how they treat them... And also because of how many of SM players are out there.
They are boring to play against...
Giantwalkingchair wrote: Tau. I hate their aesthetic and everything about them and never enjoyed any game against them.
+1
Tau are aesthetically dreadful, they look out of place in 40k and looks like they got added just to cater to fans of Japanese cartoons. And they have the most obnoxious fanboys.
Tyranids, purely aesthetic reasons. Why are they holding guns, when they would look better just having weapons integrated into their bodies? Tyranids should be a super-version of the starship troopers bugs. Not some clown-version.
I can't stand them and I hate that GW only releases new SM stuff. I like some specific chapters like space wolves, dark angels or blood angels, but generic SM are by far my most hated faction. Guilliman is my most hated character in the game.
I also can't stand daemons and tau but only for how they look (terrible IMHO), while I hate SM for everything they are
Tyranids. I never really liked their model line and the whole "biotech everything" concept never gelled with me. Space Wolves are also up there for reasons Vakathi summed up nicely.
several games ive killed the opponents army almost twice over in model count yet them constantly getting back up along with Ld10 across the board means he still won due to reanimation protocols.
Incredibly slow and dull to play against also adds a nail in the coffin for me
My own faction's flavour has been gutted, stuffed with blandness and repackaged. Almost nothing about my army excites me anymore. We've lost our interesting special characters and somehow they've managed to do ALL of the special characters that remain wrong (Lelith does Drugs, Drazhar who's entire intrigue is ''Is he a Phoenix Lord or isn't he'' no longer has a stat-line mirroring the Phoenix Lords, Urien gives no unique benefits to Grotesques).
So many things are done wrong in the book. Wych weapons are boring, bloodbrides have the same wych weapon allowance as Wyches. Our ''lightning fast'' army has the slowest vehicles of all Eldar factions. Suffice to say, this edition has less identity than the last book, which had MILES less identity than the previous book. I hate what they've done to my army, despite it being marginally more competitive now than before.
My own faction's flavour has been gutted, stuffed with blandness and repackaged. Almost nothing about my army excites me anymore. We've lost our interesting special characters and somehow they've managed to do ALL of the special characters that remain wrong (Lelith does Drugs, Drazhar who's entire intrigue is ''Is he a Phoenix Lord or isn't he'' no longer has a stat-line mirroring the Phoenix Lords, Urien gives no unique benefits to Grotesques).
So many things are done wrong in the book. Wych weapons are boring, bloodbrides have the same wych weapon allowance as Wyches. Our ''lightning fast'' army has the slowest vehicles of all Eldar factions. Suffice to say, this edition has less identity than the last book, which had MILES less identity than the previous book. I hate what they've done to my army, despite it being marginally more competitive now than before.
That sounds really rubbish, I've always had a soft spot for the Dark Eldar.
However a lot of your criticisms are based on 8th edition, and editions are pretty transient, so before you know it the rules will have changed again!
In terms of background and atheistic the Dark Eldar are as cool as ever
I'm one of the few people out there that likes every faction; I started off as a Guard player who hated every other faction but the Guard, but a few years down the line and I was thoroughly invested in all the factions and what they have to offer.
Perhaps on the gaming stage I can get behind a few. Despite being a minor Tau player at one point, I'm not particularly keen on how they operate on the tabletop; I found them rather dull to play as and against, simply because their focus on CC is so weak, and their range is so strong, that close combat rarely happens en mass on most board setups.
I don't hate any faction, but I dislike Space Wolves wolfness/hypocrisy and Tyranids (a good bug is a dead bug! I doin't like any kind of man-eating xenomorph, mostly).
Why so much SW hate? I mean some of the wolfiness is probably a bit OTT but they're just basically Space Vikings and Vikings are fething badass. At least they're more interesting than any of the Adeptus Blandtartes.
My answer would be Eldar. I just hate the scrawny space-elves and their psychic shenanigans. Can't seem to crack them whatever the edition number might be.
I dislike Chaos and daemons. Traitor legions would be a lot cooler if they had nothing to do with dark choas gods but just rouge space marines that believe the imperium is the enemy of man kind or something - and so they fight against it. Daemonic spirits corrupting their souls takes away all the coolness for me. Their look I find pretty stupid also.
Space wolves OFC - They seem to draw some really enthusiastic players who like them a lot. I'm happy they like their stuff I just think it's incredibly dumb.
I dislike harlequins too. Space clowns? yeah - this is dumb.
Tau. Most armies have at least something I like - whether it's fluff, models or mechanics. Tau have nothing. I despise their models and general aesthetics, heir fluff doesn't interest me in the slightest, and their mechanics bore me to death.
Runners up:
Chaos Daemons - I don't really like their aesthetics and (as someone else pointed out) they feel like they belong in a fantasy setting, rather than a sci-fi one. I mean, they can clearly merge/interface with machines (hence daemon engines), so why not have them be more bio-mechanical - with guns fused to them and such? (Think the Cyber-Demon from Doom.)
Orks - They're a lot of fun to play against, but they've never really interested me as a faction I'd want to play myself.
Grey Knights - Hierarchy of incorruptibleness, need say more?
Space Wolves - See, I think I could actually get into these guys, at least from a mechanical perspective. I think they have some fun gear and themes, the issue is that they got taken too far. Wolfram Wolfy mcWolfenson III, with his Wolf-sword, Wolfheart-armour, Wolf-pelt, Wolf-tooth-necklace, Wolf-shield and wolf-head-Bolter that shoots Wolf Claws. And when it's not that it's Jack Frost Frosterling IV, with his Hellfrost-pistol, Black Ice Armour and Sword of All-Cold-Like. I think if that nonsense was toned down they'd be a decent race.
Also, it bugs me that when they finally added werewolves they went with the wolfman look - i.e. big, hairy men. But this is Space Wolves - they're all big, hairy men. Could they really not have done some more wolf-like werewolves?
My own faction's flavour has been gutted, stuffed with blandness and repackaged. Almost nothing about my army excites me anymore. We've lost our interesting special characters and somehow they've managed to do ALL of the special characters that remain wrong (Lelith does Drugs, Drazhar who's entire intrigue is ''Is he a Phoenix Lord or isn't he'' no longer has a stat-line mirroring the Phoenix Lords, Urien gives no unique benefits to Grotesques).
So many things are done wrong in the book. Wych weapons are boring, bloodbrides have the same wych weapon allowance as Wyches. Our ''lightning fast'' army has the slowest vehicles of all Eldar factions. Suffice to say, this edition has less identity than the last book, which had MILES less identity than the previous book. I hate what they've done to my army, despite it being marginally more competitive now than before.
Weazel wrote: Why so much SW hate? I mean some of the wolfiness is probably a bit OTT but they're just basically Space Vikings and Vikings are fething badass. At least they're more interesting than any of the Adeptus Blandtartes.
My answer would be Eldar. I just hate the scrawny space-elves and their psychic shenanigans. Can't seem to crack them whatever the edition number might be.
Over the top wolfiness is more than enough reason to despise a space marine chapter. If you think regular space marines are boring...I just don't understand that. They are futuristic super soldiers wearing huge powered suits - that doesn't do it for you? If they take off their helmets and have huge beards and prefer to use viking type weapons it's cool though? To each his own i guess.
Space wolves. And Space Marine Rainbow Force in general, they have all those extra-stupid units and models to show how their elite is moar elite than the normal elites of normal space marines. Also Space Marines in general, because they are cannibalizing 40k and that is terrible.
nateprati wrote: Tau- me and idealized communism are not that cool right now.i do like them but i hate them.....
Tau society is nothing like communism, they have a rigid cast system. Tau are just following the general utopic/dystopic/political SF tropes.
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Weazel wrote: Why so much SW hate? I mean some of the wolfiness is probably a bit OTT but they're just basically Space Vikings and Vikings are fething badass.
For many, they feel much more like furries marine with a serious wolf fetish than viking marines in their current incarnation. Also how does them being goody two shoes goes with the viking theme?
Weazel wrote: Why so much SW hate? I mean some of the wolfiness is probably a bit OTT but they're just basically Space Vikings and Vikings are fething badass. At least they're more interesting than any of the Adeptus Blandtartes.
My answer would be Eldar. I just hate the scrawny space-elves and their psychic shenanigans. Can't seem to crack them whatever the edition number might be.
Over the top wolfiness is more than enough reason to despise a space marine chapter. If you think regular space marines are boring...I just don't understand that. They are futuristic super soldiers wearing huge powered suits - that doesn't do it for you? If they take off their helmets and have huge beards and prefer to use viking type weapons it's cool though? To each his own i guess.
Blandmarines all look the same. I hate painting the same model over and over again. With SW you never have the same equipment/leg/torso combination twice.
I like almost all the armies in 40k, but my least favourites, in ascending order, likely are:
Necrons - Only have disliked some of their rules, but otherwise I've enjoyed them. The rules I dislike are the ones that seem to be designed to be annoying . Mind-shackle Scarabs of 7th edition, Hunters from Hyperspace, the Decurion... They're not overly powerful or anything, and I love We'll Be Back (I will forever call it that), and I really like a lot of their aesthetics that they've built into over the years, but they always seem to come with some kind of rule that seems designed to be annoying as hell.
Daemons - As has been stated, they are way too much of a direct translation from Warhammer Fantasy, and now Age of Sigmar, to really feel like a 40k army. It makes a lot of sense business wise to use this army in this way, and games against them have been enjoyable for me (never faced Flyer spam or Summoning Spam from them myself), but I do wish they had a few more 40k-like options. Soulgrinders being kept to 40k would be nice. Maybe in 8th now, with keywords, we'll see Obliterators in their ranks. Some other gun-beasts would be interesting to see. Fluff-wise I dislike how they tend to dues-ex-machina the story. "Everything was going this way, and then a tear in the warp opened and a million billion daemons came out and changed the result of everything"
Tau - Despite lots of friends who are into it and seemingly all of the internet, I just have no appreciation for manga and japanese style animation. It looks like it was all drawn by the same person. The Tau, stylistically, seem to embody this style, and so it just turns me right off. I really dislike suits. What do I like of the Tau line? The Kroot, the Vespids, the Hammerhead and Devilfish. The Fire Warriors. The Ethereals. Everything really, except the suits. Oh, and I hate the drones too (not having people risking their lives is so not-40k for me. It's a grim darkness, not a "robot fighting league"). Most incarnations of them in the rules have also garnered no love from me. I want to see the Tau move and advance to positions, suffering close combat to save their brothers. Instead, most of the time, I see a static gunline army that shoots their opponent off the map or fails to shoot them off the map, and the only "movement" had been deep-striking suits that came in, exploded something and either died immediately or got to explode something else. Haven't seen them in 8th yet. How good or bad they are is irrelevant to me - I just haven't seen a game played, or played a game myself, against Tau that was enjoyable.
Even though I love the models Grey Knights have to be my most hated faction. Just from a game design standpoint having an army designed to specifically hard counter another faction is horrible. It is not the worst it has ever been, but the GK rules would only be decent if they were like 1 unit in a faction.
Automatically Appended Next Post: That said Daemons probably should have been kept as a larger chaos force as well instead of being their own army, for the reasons mentioned.
I really don´t like factions that copy from another.
Most the CSM = copy & paste SM and add spikes.
Chaos Demons as it was said to much fantasy. Better they had dropped both and created a unique "warp race".
Drukhari. Aeldari. Ok their units are quite unique to them.
Genestealer Cult. Mixing tyranid creatures with guards.
After some reflection its eldar (my own army). They are aesthetically the exact army i want to play but because to not lose i would have to use units that i dont want to use i lose often and its getting harder and harder to find the motivation to play when i know im just going to lose anyways.
2) if their models are wearing something stupid on their heads. It's very specific, I know, but god damn does dumb headgear get to me.
For category 1 there are two factions that fall in. First and primarily, Space Marines. If they were *just* that obnoxious combination of "the generic faction youve seen a jillion times" and "a bunch of insufferable marty stues whose players tell you how great their dudes are like a person who plays that half-dragon race character in DnD" I could live with it, but it's the air of "oh god we're so OPPRESSED" that they get if their rules are ever sub-par. The worst of the worst is Blood Angels players, because they want the level of support that comes with being the top-selling faction in 40k, but they also want to have their niche little playerbase and unique options and standalone codex that appeals only to people who want to play specifically flamboyant vampire marines.
Space wolves get a special exception here actually because in my experience they are likely to just be bearded biker heavy metal guys that also play orks and chaos, and those guys are always great.
The second faction that's frequently in this category are Tau, and while they're far less frequent than marines they're often more annoying because they complain if in a game your models are ever able to do anything. I've had games where I was pretty much tabled and something killed a Riptide in close combat and I had to deal with 15 minutes of pouting and "But it's a giant rooooobooooot, how did this little guy kill it, that doesn't make any sense!" Any game where you don't pick up at least 75% of your models before they can kill anything, your average Tau player is complaining about it.
For category 2, which is "dumb hat wearing armies", Craftworld Eldar are the prime offender, with a special commendation for Cadian Guard. Eldar hats are just in a giant competition to see who can have the stupider, least practical for battle thing on their head, and there's absolutely no sign of that stopping with the latest Triumvirate release and that head of hair on the Yncarne.
Guard I give a bit more of a pass because there's alternate sculpts, but the cadian helmets I just always look down at them on the table and think "Another one? Who is this guy manning the lascannon!"
My only dislike comes from poor naming conventions and poor over-the-top "crank it to 11!" styling for which you'd fail an art class. I run a Chaos Space Marine list consisting of almost entirely non-Chaos models because the Chaos models are some of the worst in the range (names and models). Space Wolves are hot on their heels. I enjoyed Space Wolves about 20 years ago when they were simply Space Vikings with the occasional wolf pelt and big dyed bears. The sudden arrival of extra-wolfy-icicles on everything pushed the entire chapter into a pale caricature of its previous self. Blood Angels are following suit with the vampire trope a bit too much for my liking, but they haven't gone full Space Wolf. You never go full Space Wolf.
Deathwatch and Grey Knights draw my ire simply because they should not be an actual army in and of themselves - not at the scale in which 40K is played. This was just sales tactics and nothing more - creating a vast number of unnecessary models and kits for an army with a handful of actual unit entries. These forces do not justify a $30-40 book themselves, etc. They really should be simple add-ons to your army, etc.
+1 to Space Marines of all flavors. Grey Knights are fine, but the rest are just generic, boring "I want to play the badass humans, hurr hurr." Both the kits and the fanbase turn me off
I don't really hate any of the different factions. However, I find playing against TAU the least fun.
They have all kinds of rules and things that I will never understand and don't care to read up on. I've collected them 2 or 3 times but sold them. Orks are so much better, way more fun.
Tau are just irritating.
the_scotsman wrote: I
For category 2, which is "dumb hat wearing armies", Craftworld Eldar are the prime offender, with a special commendation for Cadian Guard. Eldar hats are just in a giant competition to see who can have the stupider, least practical for battle thing on their head, and there's absolutely no sign of that stopping with the latest Triumvirate release and that head of hair on the Yncarne.
I can absolutely relate to this.
I've always hated the cone-head aesthetic of Eldar and DE models.
Although, as far as impracticality goes, I think DE actually win this one. Their headgear might not be as overly-elaborate as that of Eldar, but they cover their helmets in spikes and studs. This means that, rather than deflecting blows, they'd actually catch blows and channel the full force of them right into the helmet. I know they're masochists but you can't expect to enjoy the pain if your head gets obliterated in the process.
The entire universe is supposed to be grim-dark, and is largely consistent in that regard. Then you have Orks. They're the comic relief of this universe, when it doesn't need any. It's like when Peter Jackson made the Lord of the Rings movies, and had Gimli be comic relief in the Two Towers, which is largely a very dark story. The fate of humanity sits on the edge of a knife, we could go one way or the other, and then WAAAAGHHH it's NONSENSE FUN TIME! LOOK I'M RIDING A SQUIGGOTH YOU GUYS!
From a gameplay standpoint: Imperial Guard.
In any game, you should feel like your victory or defeat is at least tied to some of the decisions you make. With guard I don't get that. They set up their gunline and don't really move. It's the most boring, uninspired gameplay, and it's made even more annoying by the brutally undercosted units they field. With the keyword system, every imperium army is full of imperial guard. And I mean why not? You can get a full battalion for under 300 points. At what point does it become a 1700 point game, +your mandatory guard regiment?
People that think Ork's aren't Grimdark is people that don't understand how Orks really work in the setting and just see the meme hyperbole about them.
What do you think happens when a planet fall behind a Ork Waaagh? Do they put the women, civilians, children, etc... into space pods and let them free to a new planet? No. They use them as slaves, as food, or they kill them just for fun.
Orks are just "funny" if you ignore what they are actually doing and remain in the surface as a outside spectator. Put yourself in the skin of a human facing a Ork Waagh invasion to his planet, and then you'll see how they aren't comical in-universe.
Chaos Marines. They're fine on their own, I guess, just another flavor of Marine that I don't care for. But Magnus started the trend of reintroducing primarchs to 40k when they should have stayed in 30k where they belonged.
The entire universe is supposed to be grim-dark, and is largely consistent in that regard. Then you have Orks. They're the comic relief of this universe, when it doesn't need any. It's like when Peter Jackson made the Lord of the Rings movies, and had Gimli be comic relief in the Two Towers, which is largely a very dark story. The fate of humanity sits on the edge of a knife, we could go one way or the other, and then WAAAAGHHH it's NONSENSE FUN TIME! LOOK I'M RIDING A SQUIGGOTH YOU GUYS!
From a gameplay standpoint: Imperial Guard.
In any game, you should feel like your victory or defeat is at least tied to some of the decisions you make. With guard I don't get that. They set up their gunline and don't really move. It's the most boring, uninspired gameplay, and it's made even more annoying by the brutally undercosted units they field. With the keyword system, every imperium army is full of imperial guard. And I mean why not? You can get a full battalion for under 300 points. At what point does it become a 1700 point game, +your mandatory guard regiment?
Orks make a lot more sense once you realize that "Grim Dark" originated as a comedic device when 40k was first conceived. If you watch Robocop, Mad Max, Robot Jox, Total Recall, or read Judge Dredd or Canticles for Liebowitz, the whole "Everything is insanely depressing and nihilistic and over the top inhumane" shtick was basically comedic.
And that's how 40k started. The orks have just...stayed actually consistent to their roots.
The very first Inquisitor introduced in the fluff looked like Indiana Jones in a trenchcoat and was named "Obi-Wan Clouseau" or something like that.
Dark Eldar. They're just @$$holes in space. For some reason people think sadistic pirates are an appealing concept. They only have like one or two decent models.
The entire universe is supposed to be grim-dark, and is largely consistent in that regard. Then you have Orks. They're the comic relief of this universe, when it doesn't need any. It's like when Peter Jackson made the Lord of the Rings movies, and had Gimli be comic relief in the Two Towers, which is largely a very dark story. The fate of humanity sits on the edge of a knife, we could go one way or the other, and then WAAAAGHHH it's NONSENSE FUN TIME! LOOK I'M RIDING A SQUIGGOTH YOU GUYS!
From a gameplay standpoint: Imperial Guard.
In any game, you should feel like your victory or defeat is at least tied to some of the decisions you make. With guard I don't get that. They set up their gunline and don't really move. It's the most boring, uninspired gameplay, and it's made even more annoying by the brutally undercosted units they field. With the keyword system, every imperium army is full of imperial guard. And I mean why not? You can get a full battalion for under 300 points. At what point does it become a 1700 point game, +your mandatory guard regiment?
Orks make a lot more sense once you realize that "Grim Dark" originated as a comedic device when 40k was first conceived. If you watch Robocop, Mad Max, Robot Jox, Total Recall, or read Judge Dredd or Canticles for Liebowitz, the whole "Everything is insanely depressing and nihilistic and over the top inhumane" shtick was basically comedic.
And that's how 40k started. The orks have just...stayed actually consistent to their roots.
The very first Inquisitor introduced in the fluff looked like Indiana Jones in a trenchcoat and was named "Obi-Wan Clouseau" or something like that.
Yeah, when I see the term "Grimdark" used as a tantrum about how 40k should be totally serious, I see a fan that has lost sight of the real substance of this universe. You can't take 40k too seriously. Thats something even GW forgets many times. When they start to take the universe too seriously you see how absurd it is.
Marmatag wrote: The entire universe is supposed to be grim-dark, and is largely consistent in that regard. Then you have Orks.
Orks are the most grimdark of all the factions.
You know the old screed for 40k. Everyone does.
Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be re-learned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.
Orks have forgotten their history, forgotten what made them and don't really care much for technology and science save that which they can apply to war. They have no care for progress nor understanding, what is there to progress to that they desire, what is there to understand that they don't already understand perfectly? They care not for peace, for such a thing is anathema to their very existence. Orks desire, create, and are war eternal. Orks are the eternity of carnage and slaughter, under the guidance of their thirsting gods. They seem light-hearted and jocular not because they aren't grimdark. They are the embodiment of the grim darkness of the far future. War, devastation, waste, mass killing, without end and without a goal beyond the continuation of more war.
And they wouldn't want it any other way. They aren't trying to save anything, like the Imperium. They aren't trying to achieve some glorious end goal, like the Eldar. They aren't trying to transform the galaxy in to something they see as better, like Chaos. They aren't building a bastion of civilization for future generations to benefit from, like Tau. They aren't trying to resurrect the past, like the Necrons. They aren't even trying to just feed and consume to survive, like the Tyranids.
Because, in the grim darkness of the far future, there is only war; and so, Orks rejoice, and thrive, and conquer, for the sheer sake of war. Orks are 40k. All its silliness, all its grimdarkness, all the good, the bad, and the ugly, are distilled down in to the concept and execution of the faction.
I would even argue that, without Orks, 40k has no identity.
A faction that is entirely, at best, one special unit for other armies.
Imagine if they released a 'First Company' codex and it was literally all sternguard with only one weapon option. "Sternguard Boltmasters hold the line with volley fire from their storm bolters while Sternguard Burninators use their combi-meltas to apply lethal force exactly where its needed most" type of stuff. That's the Sisters of Silence. No HQ, no troops, just one elite squad that can have all flamers, all bolters, or all greatswords - but they have to have different names!
Beyond that, the kit only exists to tease Sisters of Battle players, and anyone else putting up with badly aging kits like Eldar and chaos space marines.
Marmatag wrote: The entire universe is supposed to be grim-dark, and is largely consistent in that regard. Then you have Orks.
Orks are the most grimdark of all the factions.
You know the old screed for 40k. Everyone does.
Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be re-learned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.
Orks have forgotten their history, forgotten what made them and don't really care much for technology and science save that which they can apply to war. They have no care for progress nor understanding, what is there to progress to that they desire, what is there to understand that they don't already understand perfectly? They care not for peace, for such a thing is anathema to their very existence. Orks desire, create, and are war eternal. Orks are the eternity of carnage and slaughter, under the guidance of their thirsting gods. They seem light-hearted and jocular not because they aren't grimdark. They are the embodiment of the grim darkness of the far future. War, devastation, waste, mass killing, without end and without a goal beyond the continuation of more war.
And they wouldn't want it any other way. They aren't trying to save anything, like the Imperium. They aren't trying to achieve some glorious end goal, like the Eldar. They aren't trying to transform the galaxy in to something they see as better, like Chaos. They aren't building a bastion of civilization for future generations to benefit from, like Tau. They aren't trying to resurrect the past, like the Necrons. They aren't even trying to just feed and consume to survive, like the Tyranids.
Because, in the grim darkness of the far future, there is only war; and so, Orks rejoice, and thrive, and conquer, for the sheer sake of war. Orks are 40k. All its silliness, all its grimdarkness, all the good, the bad, and the ugly, are distilled down in to the concept and execution of the faction.
I would even argue that, without Orks, 40k has no identity.
I can agree with most of this - while I may not call them the most grimdark of the factions, they are truly an enemy that is impossible to defeat, and will continue to thrive off slaughtering and pillaging the galaxy regardless of whatever comes next in 40k. They cannot be reasoned with (in the long term at least), and they cannot be destroyed. All that you can hope for is that a Warlord like The Beast won't come by and unite them into something truly galaxy threatening. Mind you though, with the way Ghazgkull is going, it's only a matter of time...
Their comic relief is an important aspect in both the faction and 40k in general, but that shouldn't take away from any of the terrible things they do to the worlds they invade. If anything, you could argue the comedic element is there to help people get behind what are essentially the galaxy's greatest pillagers and murderers, or dull down that fact a little.
And this is personal preference. A lot of people loved the Carnage story arc in Spider Man. I didn't really care for it, it's hard to get behind a villain that has no motivation other than chaos or lust for blood. Would Carnage have been better if he started using z's all over the place, and stopped in the middle of a fight to start cracking jokes like Jerry Seinfield? "What's the deal with slaughterzzzz, anyone wanna go Krump and trade TEEF?"
Orks don't embody grim dark in the slightest because they aren't vested one way or another in the outcome of their battles.
Marmatag wrote: Orks don't embody grim dark in the slightest because they aren't vested one way or another in the outcome of their battles.
On the contrary. That's exactly why they embody it.
Everyone else tries to be noblebright, with the possible exception of Tyranids-- and even they are less grimdark than Orks are, because there's hints Tyranids are fighting for hte purpose of survival. Orks don't bother with any of that. They take the grimdark and they embrace it wholeheartedly.
Marmatag wrote: And this is personal preference. A lot of people loved the Carnage story arc in Spider Man. I didn't really care for it, it's hard to get behind a villain that has no motivation other than chaos or lust for blood. Would Carnage have been better if he started using z's all over the place, and stopped in the middle of a fight to start cracking jokes like Jerry Seinfield? "What's the deal with slaughterzzzz, anyone wanna go Krump and trade TEEF?"
Orks don't embody grim dark in the slightest because they aren't vested one way or another in the outcome of their battles.
You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.
40k is LOTR-style high fantasy in space crossed with Starship Troopers/Forever War pointless attritional warfare, Judge Dredd 6000 story mega-cities, where the biggest threat is an incursion from the dimension of the 1980s heavy metal album cover. Your complaint is that one faction's fluff did not forget how pants-on-head ridiculous it is and continues to embrace the lighter tone that the setting had when it was originally created.
You're like a Star Wars fan that will only watch Revenge of the Sith and Rogue One because the original trilogy is made for little babies and puppets are stupid.
Amusingly, Orks have gotten a lot less light-hearted over the years. Take this for instance:
You could put a helmet on that and call it a Chaos Lord. But instead it's an Ork. And, frankly, far more intimidating than any Chaos Lord manages to be for his complete lack of humanity.
Melissia wrote: Amusingly, Orks have gotten a lot less light-hearted over the years. Take this for instance:
You could put a helmet on that and call it a Chaos Lord. But instead it's an Ork. And, frankly, far more intimidating than any Chaos Lord manages to be for his complete lack of humanity.
This is Fantasy, but I always use this as an example of "How Greenskins/Orks REALLY ARE in the universe" vs "How the internet hyperbole makes you see them"
Just a giant rush of total destruction. How isn't this brutal? Even a Khorne Chaos Warrior beg for mercy! And what he gets? His skull crashed by a Orc hammer.
Ha. Nice. The main difference between 40k and that, is the troll gets replaced by a deff dread, and the orks are firing guns wildly as they charge until they can get stuck in and chop things up.
Marmatag wrote: Orks don't embody grim dark in the slightest because they aren't vested one way or another in the outcome of their battles.
On the contrary. That's exactly why they embody it.
I think what he means is that grimdark goes with suffering and despair but orks never sound despair or suffering or distressed in any way. They sound like they are having a jolly good time. So, when there are humans involved they can work as grimdark, but orks by themselves, all being so very happy about that next battle? Lacks the "people feel bad" thingy .
Melissia wrote: Ha. Nice. The main difference between 40k and that, is the troll gets replaced by a deff dread, and the orks are firing guns wildly as they charge until they can get stuck in and chop things up.
The way the ork in the 1:15 rip the arm off of the marine so casually just makes it soo... unsetting. Like he doesn't even care. To me thats 20 times more dark and scary than a Chaos Marine yelling "I OFFER THIS SACRIFICE OF BLOOD TO MY GODS!" or something cliché like that.
Thats what makes them scary, as Melissia said. They don't kill you for their gods, they don't kill you because they have a plan like Eldar, or to eat you. They kill you just because they can and they want. That can't be more grimdark. A human in a Waagh is facing an army of giant green aliens that are gonna genocide his whole planet for no more reason that they just want to do it.
But sorry, I'll stop spamming cinematic videos about orks
Chaos of all flavors. There are many reasons but mostly it's the fluff; they are the biggest mary sues of the setting. I mean, it's always the same:
Shoot a cultist dead with a lasgun? "lol just as planned".
Conquer them in a decisive battle? "lol just as planned".
Win a major system wide war against them? "lol just as planned".
I'm not buying this. Like any armed force, chaos isn't some invincible army that *some* fluffwriters like to portray them as. I remember how they used to be just one of the factions. Yes, they were a major threat but so were all factions.
Other thing I don't like about them is how some people interpret their purpose and methods. How some people claim there's moral ambiguity to chaos. Excuse me but what moral ambiguity? Are we reading the same fluff? All they do is kill, maim and burn. I have literally never chanced upon official fluff where someone who fights for chaos did anything that wasn't utterly selfish and/or thoughtlessly destructive. Champions of chaos are pretty much nothing but R-rated saturday morning cartoon villains. Usually, the argument I hear is: "But chaos isn't necessarily a bad thing." This would be a good argument if this was D&D... but this isn't D&D. (Even if this was D&D, everyone who worships chaos would obviously be required to convert to Chaotic Evil as soon as possible. There's no way a chaos space marine could be Chaotic Neutral, let alone Chaotic Good.)
Also? If you ask me, their miniatures are ugly... sure, it's by design but rotted tentacled faces and spikes everywhere aren't my cup of tea.
The way the ork in the 1:15 rip the arm off of the marine so casually just makes it soo... unsetting. Like he doesn't even care. To me thats 20 times more dark and scary than a Chaos Marine yelling "I OFFER THIS SACRIFICE OF BLOOD TO MY GODS!" or something cliché like that.
Well it certainly would be far more scary considering as humans we can at least empathize with chaos marines as its all based on extreme human needs
Orks just want to fight, its literally alien to use as its something that we cannot understand.
The way the ork in the 1:15 rip the arm off of the marine so casually just makes it soo... unsetting. Like he doesn't even care. To me thats 20 times more dark and scary than a Chaos Marine yelling "I OFFER THIS SACRIFICE OF BLOOD TO MY GODS!" or something cliché like that.
Well it certainly would be far more scary considering as humans we can at least empathize with chaos marines as its all based on extreme human needs
I don't think the same way. Where the older necrons more scary as a totally alien race of Terminator machines that didn't show emotions or even conscience of what they where doing? Or are the new one Tomb Kings in Space more scary?
For me, the totally alien presence that is just killing you for reasons that you can't comprehend is much pretty dark. I'm not saying that ... I don't know. A group of humans canibals that are that way because they are corrupted by Khorne in their bloodlust, isn't dark too.
The way the ork in the 1:15 rip the arm off of the marine so casually just makes it soo... unsetting. Like he doesn't even care. To me thats 20 times more dark and scary than a Chaos Marine yelling "I OFFER THIS SACRIFICE OF BLOOD TO MY GODS!" or something cliché like that.
Thats what makes them scary, as Melissia said. They don't kill you for their gods, they don't kill you because they have a plan like Eldar, or to eat you. They kill you just because they can and they want. That can't be more grimdark. A human in a Waagh is facing an army of giant green aliens that are gonna genocide his whole planet for no more reason that they just want to do it.
But sorry, I'll stop spamming cinematic videos about orks
They'll slaughter your family and then brake for lunch.
Marmatag wrote: Would Carnage have been better if he started using z's all over the place, and stopped in the middle of a fight to start cracking jokes like Jerry Seinfield? "What's the deal with slaughterzzzz, anyone wanna go Krump and trade TEEF?"
Carnage did crack jokes. I distinctly remember him murdering a couple after ripping off the roof of their car, admonishing them for having the AC on when 'this is convertible weather!'
On the table in 8th edition (because I play elite armies and Orks make my butt hurt)
And in the fluff, I find them, even with their arguable grim darkness, I just find them to be a boring species. They don't intrest me in stories, in lore and I absolutely hate their aethstetic.
I can enjoy the skull-covered gothic of the Imperium, the sleek, almost natural beauty of (most) eldar creations, love the 80's Metal album cover style of Chaos, and even the anime Tau mechy nonsense. Knowing full well that the latter puts me in the minority. I just really don't like the big angry green boys with scrap metal nailed together.
I see words like "hate" and "despise" being thrown around a lot... is it really that big of an issue? At the end of the day we're talking about toy soldiers used in a board game. Like, really? Hating/despising is a little bit over-dramatic, no?
With that said, I must be in the minority that likes most of the 40K factions in some manner or other. Or at the very least I can appreciate that, while they might not be my particular cup of tea, they have their place in the setting, and I'm not one to simply "hate" on them or those that like them, wishing they didn't exists in the hobby just because I'm not that interested in them.
However, with that said, there are still those that I find too silly, too over-the-top or too dumb that I wouldn't mourn their loss or alteration. Grey Knights, Space Wolves, Newcrons... these have bad fluff and/or bad models/art direction. Dark Angels do rub me slightly the wrong way, too. Like they have to be slightly better than everyone else in every area. Black Templar medieval knight theme? Ours is better. Our chaplains are better than normal ones, +1. We have more/better plasma weapons than you, +1. We have more/better Terminator armour/1st company than you, +1. What's that Raven Guard and/or White Scars? Oh no, sorry, we have the best fast-attack company with +1 speeders and bikes. You know what I mean? It's just like; "oh you have [insert specialisation or trait here]? Well we have that too, but better." I don't hate them or anything, just find that aspect about them slightly annoying, I guess.
The only other nit-pick I have about latest trends is trying to inflate/bloat smaller units/ideas into their own standalone factions. AdMech should remain the armourers, mechanics, technicians and engineers that manufacture and arm the IoM, not be an armed forces branch in and of themselves. Imperial Knights... they can go. Scions? Nah, bring back the Storm Trooper regiment and make them part of the Guard faction again. Agents of the Imperium? Where are Artbites? Those could make for some cool models. Inquisitors, assassins, etc... just make them special units/detachment allies for IoM armies, not a faction in and of themselves.
So yeah, these are some things that slightly irritate or annoy me. Do I hate them? Good God, no. Not even close.
I like space wolves of old, the new seems to have lost their way as others have said.
But if I have to point and say "I hate this" it's got to be Grey knights, followed by the separation of deamon from chaos Marines. Old 40k fluff had chaos Marines and deamons side by side, with the deamons being a unique aspect to it. Now though (and for a while it seems) deamons have been all but pulled from chaos, with us only getting the most basic deamon options. My chaos army is lead by a lord but I have a greater deamon there as well, but I have to have 2 books and basically take 2 armies to run them? Bah.
Anfauglir wrote: I see words like "hate" and "despise" being thrown around a lot... is it really that big of an issue? At the end of the day we're talking about toy soldiers used in a board game. Like, really? Hating/despising is a little bit over-dramatic, no?
'hate' will become a buzzword like 'literally' became. People will need to create another word to represent a stronger feeling, as hate will be pretty much common by then
What specifically is it about "current" SW that tick people off? To me they've always been pretty much the same (since 2nd edition). Wulfen I don't especially like and yeah Murderfang is a bit too much for me, but outside of them what "new" have they really received recently anyway? The fluff is pretty much what it has always been, they drink mead and beat the crap out of eachother for sport, what the heck is there not to love? They've been the same since the beginning when 40k was actually very much a game based on humor so why are they suddenly viewed in such a "serious" light?
Now I'm not trying to make people love them, I just want to understand why they rank so highly on people's hate lists...
But I think it's great that there are many different factions that are able to incite various emotions in people.
I like all the factions. Sure they have their good points and bad points. But I like painting and playing the game, even against armies that kill off my armies with a tailored list. I might get a little frustrated at the time, but playing is more fun and you cannot win all the time, otherwise you will have trouble finding opponents.
Weazel wrote: Wulfen I don't especially like and yeah Murderfang is a bit too much for me, but outside of them what "new" have they really received recently anyway?
They have, you know, anti-grav sleigh pulled by wolves.
They used to not even bring actual wolves with them, let alone ride those into battle, let alone use them to pull stupid antigrav sleigh. They used to have accomplishments that were basically the equivalents of those of other chapters, now it feels like they are portrayed as just better.
I understand why many people put orks among the most hated factions saying that they're not grim dark.
Orks are by far my favorite army but I can't stand their comic portraying too. My orks are not hilarious or funny, they're big, dirty and scary
It's also interesting to notice that a lot of imperium players can't stand space wolves. I can't stand the majority of the imperium stuff, but I do love space wolves
IMHO the latin SM connections and names are way dumber and far from being "grim dark" that comic orks. And that is said by someone that was born in Rome.
Space Wolves are alright in general. However, they *could* do without naming so many things "Wolf [something]", though. It's just silly that everything has wolves on top of wolves. Knock it off.
I'd still play the Wolves if I had infinite time and money. They're space vikings. Instant cool.
Orks are okay too. They're grimdark enough when you stop to think about them. And if you still think they are too funny for the setting? Well, I find a lot of imperium's stuff to be quite funny. I mean, this whole union of factions is a giant, walking, talking political satire. And like I said, chaos are just R-rated saturday morning cartoon villains. If you don't find 40k funny... man, I don't even know what to say.
I wouldn't play Orks even if I had infinite time and money, though. When it comes to 40k, I'm more interested of the scifi-stuff and/or "knights in space"-stuff than that whole Mad Max-look.
I don't hate any of the factions, I do have some that I don't like, but that's just personal preference and none that I would say don't belong in the game, except maybe the Grey Knights, as their background does not befit a full faction. I started in 5th, so I may have missed when Space Wolves were not so damned OTT, but they are now. They were the worst victims of GW's infatuation with the least subtle of naming conventions.....and that's just from a canine perspective without even getting to Murderfang. The second one that does nothing for me is Nurgle, there is nothing about the Nurgle aesthetic that holds any appeal to me, although they make for great reading in the books.
Blackie wrote: IMHO the latin SM connections and names are way dumber and far from being "grim dark" that comic orks. And that is said by someone that was born in Rome.
That is because you didn't go through the English education system. Believe me there is nothing more grim and dark than double Latin in a dark, freezing room delivered by a sadist with three feet of rattan cane swishing down on your fingers every time you forget what a gerund is.
As for my least favourite faction, it is the Adeptus Custodes for me. They look like something out of Flash Gordon, not the good one either, the eighties one.
RedCommander wrote: I should add: 'hate' is indeed a too strong word when you are talking about plastic miniature soldiers*.
However, chaos is still my least favorite faction. I'd rather play Tau and I give them all kinds (non-serious) flak too.
*They're not toys, dang it! They're miniatures, I say!
Oh I've had a period of time where I couldn't get any games from people at my flgs because Tau were soft banned. Despite playing a fluffy list in 7th.
My least favourite. Eldar Lore is so stupid the model range is okay. I also dislike the vast majority of space marine lore/stuff. Primarch models I haven't been a fan of. Primaris can go away too. Deathwatch, blood ravens, and Imperial fists are good though. Actually I think I hate a good chunk of the fanbase more than anything to do with the lore. So cringy.
I don't so much hate a faction, as I do certain attitudes about a faction.
"Tau are the best at shooting and can annihilate everyone" whether that be a gloat or a complaint is what I hate.
But in all honesty, I loathe Squats because I think their entire concept is dumb.
I dislike Sisters of Battle because they didn't really do anything significant to stand out other than 'be nuns'. A fine opportunity to combine some of what the Guard has, with a little bit of what Astartes have... squandered.
There's at least one thing about every faction I don't like or find annoying. I guess I'm just a hater.
Particular mention goes to Space Wolves: I recently made a list for a friend using the wolves and the lack of imagination that has gone into naming their units is staggering. Very stupid. The fluff is godawful too.
I wish they had more of a viking theme and less of a wolf theme, honestly.
Chaos have fugly models and act like Saturday morning cartoon villains. They're not imposing at all.
Hate is too strong, but dislike or sheer apathy for these forces would be where I stand.
1. Dark Eldar - Dislike there fluff, the motives and the aesthetic. Cruelty, torture, slavery and a affinity for whips sounds a bit Slaanesh to me. I'm all for space pirates/raiders in 40k but not these guys who took a left turn out of hellraiser. (Except Drazhar he's cool)
2. Blood Angels - I just find a bunch of vampire space marines to be too heretical for my liking, plus I don't like the red colour scheme and find the special characters to be horrible.
3. Necrons - They look so boring, as the 40k undead equivalent they have a lot to do to be as interesting as there fantasy counter parts.
Special mention: Daemons only army - mixed in with cultists and the traitor legions fantastic, used as part of a daemon world army with barbarian humans, beastmen and everything else pure joy. As there own force of just them materialising from nothing or a shoe horned in artefact I just find the idea to be kind of dull. (Given a choice to dump an army from 40k, Daemon only armies would be my number one pick.)
Weazel wrote: What specifically is it about "current" SW that tick people off? To me they've always been pretty much the same (since 2nd edition). Wulfen I don't especially like and yeah Murderfang is a bit too much for me, but outside of them what "new" have they really received recently anyway? The fluff is pretty much what it has always been, they drink mead and beat the crap out of eachother for sport, what the heck is there not to love? They've been the same since the beginning when 40k was actually very much a game based on humor so why are they suddenly viewed in such a "serious" light?
Now I'm not trying to make people love them, I just want to understand why they rank so highly on people's hate lists...
But I think it's great that there are many different factions that are able to incite various emotions in people.
The wolf motif has been taken way too far. When you have Canis Wolfborne of the Wolfguard of Harold Deathwolf of the Space Wolves chapter, raised among the feral Wolves of Fenris, riding atop his Thunderwolf with his Wolf Tooth Necklace and Wolf Amulet, Wielding Wolfclaws for the Wolftime, it's a sure sign the theme has been beaten to death, they've gone beyond the Viking theme and basically gone full-blown Furry.
They come off as arrogant in a very un-viking way, almost hipster like, *especially* in Prospero Burns and A Thousand Sons. They try to be too many, contradictory, often hypocritical things. "We don't use Psykers, they're bad, we have Rune Priests, they use the native power of Fenris, you've probably never heard of it..."
Their fluff between the 5E book and 30k stuff has just been really bad. They try to be "dark" and "intentionally misunderstood" executioners in Prospero Burns who are simultaneously amazing spymasters with an excellente intelligence network while being intelligent and highly disciplined warriors while trying to portray an image of undisciplined brutality to their own allies for god knows what reason but being highly superstitious fighting for an Emperor who is trying to stamp out exactly such practices, making extensive use of psychic support despite condemning it elsewhere. They try to be basically "Space Berzerkers" in other fluff where basically they win through being more ferocious than their opponents with none of the subtlety/cunning mentioned in the HH books. They try to be "the good guys" in other fluff, caring about the average citizen, etc. They try to be the "pranksters" in some fluff like crashing thunderhawks for pranks and whatnot. In others they come off as half-werewolf psychopaths, and then they sprinkle in actual Werewolves to boot, etc.
They try to be too many things at once that contradict each other, and they try too hard in general. Unlike Orks, the comedic and serious elements clash harshly, as to the elements within each end of the spectrum.
The way they are written all too often also reads like bad internet fanfiction. Firing artillery by *smell*? Then rushing forward to watch the explosions (thus exposing an artillery platform to direct enemy fire...exactly what it was designed *not* to do, or just being impossible given that the often the point of artillery is to fire at things that it's not possible to get at) because it's amusing? That's really the actions of genetically engineered disciplined and combat experienced super soldiers?
The way they are written all too often also reads like bad internet fanfiction. Firing artillery by *smell*? Then rushing forward to watch the explosions (thus exposing an artillery platform to direct enemy fire...exactly what it was designed *not* to do, or just being impossible given that the often the point of artillery is to fire at things that it's not possible to get at) because it's amusing? That's really the actions of genetically engineered disciplined and combat experienced super soldiers?
I think this especially exemplifies the issue with SWs. The Vikings might have been fearsome warriors, but there's a good reason why they never built an Empire.
If they need to exist at all, I think Space Wolves really should be just a small part in a larger picture. If you want a section of warriors who'll joyfully run headlong into battle, then it makes at least some degree
of sense.
The issue comes when you try to make those same warriors fill *every* role in an army. Why? What's the point? What purpose does it serve to have these people manning your artillery or long-range guns? If they're trained for combat, why the hell would you ever train them to fly aircraft?
I am choosing to not focus on factions but playstyles (that you do indeed see mostly with certain factions). I make this choice because most factions do have variety in 40k in army builds.
#1 Straight gunline armies that never move from their board edge. I don't mind shooting, but there is ZERO skill in sitting on your board edge, picking targets (please do not play the "target choice is really important!" I agree, but it is dead simple 98% of the time. I have a lascannon, gee do I shoot the giant tank or the snipers...) Now, a gun support of assault units? Great concept that actualy uses skill and strategy.
#2 Herohammer and epic scale models (Knights, baneblades etc are really just another form of mega hero models): I put them together because as said many times, either I have the tools to kill them, and do so by turn 2, or I don't and lose. I love tactics etc, but they rarely can overcome I need a 6 to wound and you have a 3+ invuln. Besides, I HATE throwing half my 2k army at one model a turn...Rarely do I ever have a close game or even see a battle report of one involving girlyman, knight built lists etc. I am completely biased of course as we all are. But I am tired of destroying an opponents entire army, and being left with mine beating on his 3 HQ's for 2 turns. (Again, girlyman being the worst culprit) I build a mixed force without the hoard of pointless guys to make him sit in the corner the whole game, and anytime you shoot girly man to death, your opponent SCREWED up, as he should always get to CC and never be closest model to anything dangerous to him. Yes, I said it. if you kill him with shooting, 90% of the time you're playing a bad player.
That all said...I think the Tau battlesuits look really lame. I don't mind the anime fluff excuse to use them etc...but they should have got some anime guy to design cool stuff instead of their boxlike legos.
edwardmyst wrote: #1 Straight gunline armies that never move from their board edge. I don't mind shooting, but there is ZERO skill in sitting on your board edge, picking targets
Actually, there's a lot of skill in choosing where to sit the various units of your gunline, what your gunline's formation should be, and how your gunline reacts the enemy's movements.
Certainly it takes no less skill than "HURR I MOVE EVERYTHING FORWARD AND PILE IN GIT SUUUUUM!".
Gameplay-wise, I think the saltiest I have ever felt was against 5th ed. Grey Knights.
My buddy had been playing them from the dawn of 5th as Daemonhunters, so he wasn't jumping on a bandwagon or anything, and I was definitely happy for him that his army got a much-needed update. For the most part I even agreed with a lot of the changes because they actually made a very small, very elite force viable and survivable, which was pretty cool.
However, around the same time I had started playing Tyranids and...
There are almost no words to describe how flat-out unfair those match-ups felt.
I try as much as possible to look at game losses as a personal problem and see where I can improve. There's nothing to be gained if you start from the perspective that it's the -game's- fault you lost or that it was a balance issue. Looking at things like that sets you up for failure because you won't learn anything or grow that way.
But man...
His shooting was flat-out better in terms of range, power, volume and mobility. No problem: I can move just as well as him and get into combat.
Oh, wait, all of his guys have force weapons, so they one-shot any multi-wound models. Okay, well, I can still dish out some damage before that- oh, no, I can't; halberds grant I6, so any models with those hit as fast or faster than any of my guys...and one hit is all they need.
So my small, weak models couldn't stand up to the volume of long-range fire and my bigger, tougher models effectively couldn't do anything.
Those games became really hard to enjoy.
Anyway as far as fluff or aesthetics goes, I wouldn't say I hate them but Orks pretty rarely do anything for me.
Purifier wrote: Tyranids, purely aesthetic reasons. Why are they holding guns, when they would look better just having weapons integrated into their bodies? Tyranids should be a super-version of the starship troopers bugs. Not some clown-version.
Tyranid weapons ARE integrated into their bodies...am i missing something here?
In case it actually is inseparable part of its body, it still looks like it carrya gun, like human does.
The tyranid guns are mostly supposed to be separate creatures to the host. Hence most of the guns having eyes on them. However the weapon and the host are grown together, and have fused around each other.
The hosts fingers have grown into the weapon, connecting their circulatory systems. Their hands have splayed out and twisted around and through the weapon. Tubes have grown from the weapon into the hosts flesh.
There's no way a tyranid could drop its weapon and pick up another. You can see this just be looking at the models. Check out this venom cannon. You can still see something resembling hands wrapped around it. Vestigial fingers integrating with the weapon symbiote. But it's pretty hard to say the host is 'holding' the weapon. They are inseparable.
Spoiler:
Makes sense from a modularity point of view. It would be easier to maintain a single 'template' for gaunts, and one for each of the compatible weapon creatures, than to have a separate template for each and every sub-species of gaunt.
Weazel wrote: Why so much SW hate? I mean some of the wolfiness is probably a bit OTT but they're just basically Space Vikings and Vikings are fething badass. At least they're more interesting than any of the Adeptus Blandtartes.
My answer would be Eldar. I just hate the scrawny space-elves and their psychic shenanigans. Can't seem to crack them whatever the edition number might be.
The fact that they are loosely based upon vikings actually makes me like vikings a bit less; thinking about vikings as space wolves and being basically a giant wolf meme.
Weazel wrote: Why so much SW hate? I mean some of the wolfiness is probably a bit OTT but they're just basically Space Vikings and Vikings are fething badass. At least they're more interesting than any of the Adeptus Blandtartes.
My answer would be Eldar. I just hate the scrawny space-elves and their psychic shenanigans. Can't seem to crack them whatever the edition number might be.
The fact that they are loosely based upon vikings actually makes me like vikings a bit less; thinking about vikings as space wolves and being basically a giant wolf meme.
The thing is, space Vikings would actually be awesome, but space wolves aren't space Vikings. They're wolf obsessed vaguely Vikings. Actual space Vikings would have a lot more going for them, and if they were clever, could use the different aspects to represent different parts of the army.
Space marines, first because they have no downside- no drawbacks for their bonuses or actions. It feels like they are too good at all things and often great at others. Second because each chapter/legion has such adamant fanboys that that particular color is so much better than the others. It's palette swaps with maybe one or two tiny changes, chill. Even as a furry I'm not interested in SW, they do feel a bit silly.
I get why people dislike T'au playstyle, I'm getting a little bored of not having a psychic or fighting phase. I do like that T'au have to make meaningful choices, like move or get rerolls, where to deploy how many markerlights, what support systems to use where today, each of these things has tradeoffs in game rather than auras of reroll everything. Still, it rarely feels like we are getting enough out of the trade offs vs SM but when I fight AdMech or Nids things seem nicely matched.
What I don't totally get is why people think battlesuits are out of place when wraithknights and imperial knights are in. Alright battlesuits tend to be slim-boxy while wraith is sleek-rounded and imperials are clunky-bubbly, seems like a middle ground to me. But art is subjective so whatever.
As for me space wolves is an easy pick, as someone said pretentious tryhards. Blood angels would probably also make that list, linkin park blasting space vampires, whose entire gimmick is avoiding extinction by the smallest margins so they can go be sad some more. The fact that they are planning on retconning the whole horus heresy for saguinus makes me want to punch puppies. As for unfun to play against imperial knights are decidedly meh, either you have the tools to take them down and you win, or you don't and you lose.
Wait...wut? They're doing what stupid thing for SM now?
For me it's Space Marines. Just Space Marines in their entirety. I hate them all.
They're cheap, cheesy, and GW's posterboys and all time favorite faction.
I'm sick of reading about them.
I'm sick of playing against them.
I'm sick of seeing them.
I'm sick of taking them into account when I theoryhammer.
I'm sick of mathing them out.
I'm sick of their immunity to half the rules in the game.
I'm sick of seeing them get more and more toys while other armies don't even get codex updates.
I'm sick of seeing their sub-factions get their own codicies while other factions that had codicies get pushed into White Dwarf (say hi, Sisters of Battle!)
I'm just sick of everything space marine...except for painting and playing AS them (since I've never done either before)
Just...GW needs to take one edition and let SM sit there and collect dust while they push everything else as hard as they can. Just let the Space Marines be a foot note for a while while other factions get to do stuff.
Shas'O'Ceris wrote: What I don't totally get is why people think battlesuits are out of place when wraithknights and imperial knights are in. Alright battlesuits tend to be slim-boxy while wraith is sleek-rounded and imperials are clunky-bubbly, seems like a middle ground to me. But art is subjective so whatever.
I don't think the concept of battlesuits is out of place, but I always found their aesthetic rather jarring. Tau in general always looked to me like they belonged in an entirely different universe to the other 40k stuff.
Just...GW needs to take one edition and let SM sit there and collect dust while they push everything else as hard as they can. Just let the Space Marines be a foot note for a while while other factions get to do stuff.
I don't really "hate" a faction, I just dislike some things that just turn me away from ever collecting them.
First, Tau. Fluff is mediocre, crunch was full of high power suit spam that took precisely all of 5 mins to learn and allowed you ridiculous wins. Didn't help that many WAAC players abused the gak out of them.
Second, Eldar. Mostly for the same as Tau, but because they are so arrogant, haughty and full of it I couldn't care less for them.
Lastly, Grey Knights. Mostly because of Draigo. feth him. With a splintery, deep heat smeared broom handle.
zerosignal wrote: Orks. I get they're iconic for the setting, but they break the whole grimdark thing way too much; I'd quite happily see them retconned into oblivion.
Orks are very grimdark. They're a race of spree killers..
Automatically Appended Next Post: Did you ever see Rob Zombie's House of 1000 Corpses or The Devil's Rejects? Those are Orks. They're horrific.
Lore-wise: Tau.
Such a meager faction that really don't pose any large-scale threat and consistently get their asses handed to them by other major factions.
Tabletop: Grey Knights .
Boring to play against their limited model range. 3 Nemesis Dreadknights.. surprise, surprise.
I have a mild annoyance with the amount of attention Space Marines get but recognise that they are GW's most profitable line, so if that keeps the hobby rolling so be it.
For the love of the Eye, could we please get some new CSM kits though, not Legion specific I add. Case in point, Possessed, awful just awful models.
Just...GW needs to take one edition and let SM sit there and collect dust while they push everything else as hard as they can. Just let the Space Marines be a foot note for a while while other factions get to do stuff.
I dont like Tau as I always felt they dont fit into the 40k universe. If GW wants to give all the anime otakus something to paint these shouldve been their own game instead or something.
I dont like the blue painted poster boy Space Marines as you get kinda fed up on seeing them all the time for 19+ years..
I dont like AM/IG as I play/collect miniatures in a crazy scifi world out in space. I would never want to play something that feels like normal humans. I got enough of it irl.
Fluff wise: Space Wolves for stated reason AND that they used to be cool till GW turned them into furries in space. Thunderwolf calvary??? Werewolves??? Seriously???
Runner-up: Tau. Space commies. I hate commies.
Tabletop: Necrons. While not always OP, they have had aggrevating rules over multiple editions.
I dont like Tau as I always felt they dont fit into the 40k universe. If GW wants to give all the anime otakus something to paint these shouldve been their own game instead or something.
I keep hearing that Tau look like anime stuff but I'm just not seeing it (either in the artwork for them or in the models them).
I understand people tire of the space marines over exposure, but how can you hate them? This is their story. The story arc of Darth Vader is what drives the first six Star Wars films. Wouldn't it sound funny to hear someone say they like the new movies because Darth Vader isn't in them? Everyone has the right to their opinion but it would be a bizarre thing to hear. There is no Star Wars without Darth Vader. Same goes for space marines.
I don't get why I see people begging for plastic sisters in every comment section of every warhammer article I read. I have a theory it must be a running joke I'm not aware of. How can so many people be enthralled by sisters? Chicks with stupid top knots, AND THEYRE NOT EVEN HAWT!
Custodes, I don't get it.
I agree with half the board about the Space Wolves. They're the only Legion I don't like. I hoped Dan Abnett could make them cool in Prospero Burns, but nope. It's a shame too, the majority of my blood line is Nordic. I wish I liked them but I can't.
STRONGLY DISAGREE with negative attitudes towards Orks. Loosen up guys! Scary murderous orks are awesome. Silly ork hijinx is awesome. Their levity is sorely needed in 40k. I know I know. Grimdark. We have to have all grimdark all the time. But you know what? Everyone likes ranch. That doesn't mean you have to eat ranch eggs for breakfast and a ranch sandwich for lunch and ranch-steak with a side of ranch potatoes and ranch corn for dinner. Enjoy more than one flavor. Diversify your palette
SolidOakie wrote: I understand people tire of the space marines over exposure, but how can you hate them? This is their story. The story arc of Darth Vader is what drives the first six Star Wars films. Wouldn't it sound funny to hear someone say they like the new movies because Darth Vader isn't in them? Everyone has the right to their opinion but it would be a bizarre thing to hear. There is no Star Wars without Darth Vader. Same goes for space marines.
On the contrary, I'd say that Darth Vader is the reason many people dislike the prequel films.
In the original trilogy, Vader did indeed have an arc. However, his arc is *not* what drives those films and it's certainly not what's at the heart of them (which is Luke).
Now, just to be clear, I think Darth Vader is a great character and an integral part of the initial Star Wars trilogy. However, Vader was also just a small part in a bigger story. In A New Hope, Darth Vader is in the film for all of 12 minutes. That's it. Yes, Darth Vader was an important character, but the films didn't revolve around him in the way you seem to be suggesting.
Then the prequels came. First off, no, they weren't in any way a character story for Darth Vader. He was supposed to have been a great Jedi and friend to Obi Wan who fell to the dark side. That could have made for a great story, yet there is no evidence of any real friendship nor even any fall. Anakin has no arc - he's just an donkey-cave who never changes throughout the entirety of the prequels.
What's more, suddenly Vader was the key to everything ever. He was suddenly destined to be The Chosen One and The One Who'll Bring Balance to the Force and the one destined to be the most powerful Jedi ever. None of that seems to relate to anything in the original trilogy. In this regard, I'd say that Darth Vader is indeed a good metaphor for Space Marines. Both are iconic of their respective universes and both were once interesting. However, they were then pushed into the limelight for the most contrived reasons and to the exclusion of everything else that made their stroies and universes great to begin with - including their own characters.
I guess you're right. I chose my words poorly. What I should have said is Darth Vader is the entity that the movie is based around. He's like the Christmas tree before any lights or ornaments get put on. You have to have him in order to "stage" everything else. Luke Skywalker, Princess Leia, Han, those are the real characters, but they wouldn't have had a story without Vaders foundation.
Now I am going to have to distance myself from my own metaphor. The Space Marines are a lot more than a bare Christmas tree. Every story needs larger than life heroes. That is the space marines purpose. I am on the 25th book in the Horus Heresy series. The story of the Heresy is frankly the coolest thing ive ever read, and it keeps on giving. I am not trying to argue opinion in this case, like I said, I understand people get sick and tired of rapid fire SM releases. What I find funny is people seem to hold a grudge against them because of it
Space Marines for the most part don't have an arc. Nothing ever effects them meaningfully. They fight, they fight, if the character doesn't have a model they might die, they fight again. "The Chapter was almost wiped out at the batlte of X, but mysteriously is back at full strength now for reasons..."
So I don't really understand the comparison with Vader. You could like Star Wars and hate Vader, just as you could hate RG and love 40k. The universe is bigger than they are.
Anyway what I want from fluff is consistency. What I dislike is how chapters take on basically every trait (World Eaters alone seem immune to this) as required.
"We are the cunningest, the strongest, the shootiest, the foremost CQC expert, we are the [Insert Chapter Name Here]!" (probably Ultramarines).
No. You can't logically be all things to all men. Pick something and stick to it. Space Wolves are specially egregious on this.
Grey Knight fluff is frankly less Grimdark than the Tau.
In that respect I also get people's point about Orks. The writers are clearly divided between "completely not scary comic relief" and "no seriously, they are a threat, look they have axes and stuff". It isn't consistent and it does stand out.
Space Wolves, their fluff both current, old and preheresy is irritating.
Daemons, demons are supposed to be beings of pure hell, utterly terrifying, a perversion whose very presence corrupts reality. Instead we have a bunch of goofy, cartoony, multicoloured models that wouldn't look out of place on a kids show, some of the models are serviceable, the majority are pure crap.
Oh and chaos marines look awful, they still look like space marines with spikes glued on.
Actually I AM getting sick of the Skywalkers and how every friggen new movie in the Star Wars universe is a lesser rehash of the old ones. For gods sakes the Force Awakens is the SAME MOVIE as the original movie but worse in every way except the special effects.
Rey is borderline mary sue at this point as well and can do almost anything required by the plot.
The more I think back on these new movies the worse they are. Also we seen three prequel movies with Anakin/Vader and without a doubt they are some of the most hated movies of all time for how bad they are.
Rogue One had some great action scenes, but again we seen the majority of that stuff before. We've seen X-Wings, and star destroyers, and the death star. I will say it has the best action scene in the entire series, but an action scene doesn't make an interesting memorable movie.
Now we're going to get a dumb han-solo prequel movie. At this point not a single original character with their own motivations that has nothing to do with any established character/plot exists in any of these movies.
Nothing new or interesting has been added to the Star Wars universe. At least the prequels are more memorable in a weird way for how bad they are. The sequels have all been by the book studio playing it safe bland affairs I can barely remember.
The Last Jedi might redeem Force Awakens for me, but I doubt it. The Han Solo movie is having development problems too now and switching directors like crazy.
So yeah maybe the world is getting sick of seeing Darth Vader since none of the movies that have had a big focus on him have had any critical long standing success.
Darth Vader is actually being ruined for a new generation now. "Make sure not to choke on your ambitions" pun in Rogue One was awful dad level joke.
Edit
I am truly sick of Space Marines and think they need a year long break so everyone else can get stuff. They won't cease to exist as a faction and if the players of other factions can tough it out for god knows how long one year of marine free releases is not going to kill off their line. It's not like Forgeworld is going to ever stop making marines every release now.
STRONGLY DISAGREE with negative attitudes towards Orks. Loosen up guys! Scary murderous orks are awesome. Silly ork hijinx is awesome. Their levity is sorely needed in 40k. I know I know. Grimdark. We have to have all grimdark all the time. But you know what? Everyone likes ranch. That doesn't mean you have to eat ranch eggs for breakfast and a ranch sandwich for lunch and ranch-steak with a side of ranch potatoes and ranch corn for dinner. Enjoy more than one flavor. Diversify your palette
The flavor of Orks tastes awful, to me, their levity isn't fun, their models and aesthetics are crap, their style of play doesn't appeal to me, they're loud and annoying (in video games), I feel they had free passes fpr stupid things that would have people complain far more if they were from other faction (that biker that blew up a Titan head with his claw, the one that turned characters to squigs).
vipoid wrote:I don't think the concept of battlesuits is out of place, but I always found their aesthetic rather jarring. Tau in general always looked to me like they belonged in an entirely different universe to the other 40k stuff.
Tau vehicles actually look to take some nods from the Craftworld Vehicles, but more 'human' and less exotic. The Stealth Suits were of similar set up. The Crisis Suits are a different story, being very blocky as opposed to the smooth curves we see everywhere else in the army.
daBIGboss wrote:Lore-wise: Tau.
Such a meager faction that really don't pose any large-scale threat and consistently get their asses handed to them by other major factions.
True. Custodes are far worse, however. Unless you're doing a raid on the Golden Throne, why would they be showing up? In modern global terms it would be as if Lesotho or Swaziland suddenly jumped up to 1st World tech and manufacturing and started conquering southern Africa, but weren't complete a-holes to the conquered.
daBIGboss wrote:Tabletop: Grey Knights .
Boring to play against their limited model range. 3 Nemesis Dreadknights.. surprise, surprise.
So that makes Deathwatch, Custodes, Harlequins, and Sisters of Silence so much joy, too.
I dont like Tau as I always felt they dont fit into the 40k universe. If GW wants to give all the anime otakus something to paint these shouldve been their own game instead or something.
I keep hearing that Tau look like anime stuff but I'm just not seeing it (either in the artwork for them or in the models them).
Is there a specific anime that they resemble?
I feel the same. Eldar share more with in common with anime tropes than do the Tau. I think they focus too much on the battlesuit consideration, which actually shares more in common with Heinlein's Starship Troopers than any Gundam or Valkyrie. The Crisis Suit also bears more resemblance to Canadian Dream Pod 9's Northern Heavy Gear design as well.
Meanwhile, with the Eldar, we have soft but quick race with an emphasis on overcompensating Weapons and the ornate, flowing designs one sees in most anime.
And I should point out, anime design is Japan's take on Disney cartoon design.
I dont like Tau as I always felt they dont fit into the 40k universe. If GW wants to give all the anime otakus something to paint these shouldve been their own game instead or something.
I keep hearing that Tau look like anime stuff but I'm just not seeing it (either in the artwork for them or in the models them).
Is there a specific anime that they resemble?
I dont follow the 40k lore so im just focused on the looks. And all I see with Tau, especially the battlesuits etc is typical japanese cartoon/anime robots. Just google Gundam or japanese robots and you will see what I mean
The only Gundam's I think they resemble are the 08th Mobile Suit Team Gundam. They even used tanks alongside the mecha in that series. Really great show actually since it focuses more on the average pilot than some big hero.
Gamgee wrote: The only Gundam's I think they resemble are the 08th Mobile Suit Team Gundam. They even used tanks alongside the mecha in that series. Really great show actually since it focuses more on the average pilot than some big hero.
The Japanese aesthetic that Tau have probably doesn't help. Still, could argue outside of the Japanese influence Battletech/Mechwarrior and/or Heavy Gear are also part of what inspires the Tau theme.
Dark Eldar and "vanilla" Chaos Space Marines (Black Legion for example). Just the generic "super mean bad guy" is super boring to me. Death Guard and Thousand Sons are more interesting CSM and the Eldar are plenty dickish without "Dark" before their name.
Many mention Space Marines, but I think the Imperium as a whole is pretty interesting, with the rise and fall of paradise. The Mechanicus is amazing to, although they are not 100% Imperium. Maybe that's what makes them interesting..
Gamgee wrote: The only Gundam's I think they resemble are the 08th Mobile Suit Team Gundam. They even used tanks alongside the mecha in that series. Really great show actually since it focuses more on the average pilot than some big hero.
The Japanese aesthetic that Tau have probably doesn't help. Still, could argue outside of the Japanese influence Battletech/Mechwarrior and/or Heavy Gear are also part of what inspires the Tau theme.
They feel more a cross between Western and Chinese then Japanese, to me. But then, I'm probably more familiar with anime than the average 40K player. Seriously, the Fire Warrior armor seems to fit the style of army uniform I see in Hero than the samurai armor I see in Shogun.
I used to not like Tau very much, but they've grown on me now that they aren't portrayed as the "good guys" like they were in their very first codex.
On the other hand, I used to really love Necrons, before the newer codexes revamped them into "Tomb Kings in Space." A lot of the models got better, at least, but I preferred them as being an unknowable, unstoppable, completely alien entity.
Imperial in general, I would have loved to have been a Guard player at the time, if it didn't leave me feeling... well...
https://youtu.be/hn1VxaMEjRU?t=20
Harbringerxv8 wrote: I used to not like Tau very much, but they've grown on me now that they aren't portrayed as the "good guys" like they were in their very first codex.
On the other hand, I used to really love Necrons, before the newer codexes revamped them into "Tomb Kings in Space." A lot of the models got better, at least, but I preferred them as being an unknowable, unstoppable, completely alien entity.
I might be mixing editions up, but wasn't it the first Tau Codex that hinted towards the origins of the Tau as being one of The Deceiver's creations and that the Ethereals were 'artificial' and able to manipulate the Tau using pheromones and the like? I remember it reading very 'utopian' in parts, but there was always a sinister undercurrent that everything wasn't quite 'right' with Tau society. The undertones always made their 'greater good assimilation' seem that much more dangerous.
And yes, I hate the new Necron lore - would be my 2nd, behind GK lore in general. The old Necron lore was so much more interesting and intriguing. Instead of bland space Egyptians.
Just like older Tyranid lore, where they weren't this ridiculous hyper-adaptive Borg-like entity that nullified anything within 5 minutes - they were just this vast, vorcacious, unstoppable force of nature. They didn't adapt in minutes or hours, there were just so many of them - literally beyond counting - and they would just keep coming and coming without pause or hesitation.
With Necron fluff I didn't mind super early stuff where it was largely mysterious.
Then the C'Tan got worked into every major universe event - and made up to be as big a threat (and potentially bigger, since they can materialise) than the Chaos Gods. It got contrived and stupid.
So some cutting back was necessary. Not totally sure the Tomb Kings in Spaaace approach was the way to do it but there you go.
I don't mind Tau fluff, I just don't like the big mechs (riptides and up) which unfortunately became their crutch.
If they became an infantry focused faction again, supported by Piranhas, Hammerhands and their aircraft being viable choices I would like them alot.
Also wouldn't mind a Kroot release. Just don't think its ever going to happen.
Tyel wrote: With Necron fluff I didn't mind super early stuff where it was largely mysterious.
Then the C'Tan got worked into every major universe event - and made up to be as big a threat (and potentially bigger, since they can materialise) than the Chaos Gods. It got contrived and stupid.
So some cutting back was necessary. Not totally sure the Tomb Kings in Spaaace approach was the way to do it but there you go.
I don't mind Tau fluff, I just don't like the big mechs (riptides and up) which unfortunately became their crutch.
If they became an infantry focused faction again, supported by Piranhas, Hammerhands and their aircraft being viable choices I would like them alot.
Also wouldn't mind a Kroot release. Just don't think its ever going to happen.
The way they were portrayed in the FW Taros book is perfect. Riptides were introduced soon after the Dreadknight was; between those and things like Imperial Knights, it had started to feel like 40k was just going to be big robots mashing together and bringing infantry was just a handicap. Things seem to have course corrected since then, which is part of what drew me back to 8th personally at least.
I like Tau big suits, but I don't want them to be the sole thing. I like a nice and varied pallet of units in the Tau army because they are so flexible they have adapted numerous ways of fighting.
I like that a lot about the Tau lore is how adaptable they are in the fluff and always adapting the current situation of war. If something isn't working or an enemy's thing is working well they copy it.
I still hope to see a cool Tau super heavy tank and a hovering space gunship kinda like a tau stealth valkyrie except more anti-tank focused.
While I don't hate new Necron lore I do dislike it a lot.
SolidOakie wrote: I don't get why I see people begging for plastic sisters in every comment section of every warhammer article I read. I have a theory it must be a running joke I'm not aware of. How can so many people be enthralled by sisters? Chicks with stupid top knots, AND THEYRE NOT EVEN HAWT!
Sisters are the army of “Throw more money at it until it works”. They rock more bling than Mr T. Sisters are the worst excess of the catholic church, dialed up to eleven… IN SPACE. How to NOT love that? Sisters have the crazy demagogues that will whip the populace into a self-destructive frenzy of religious fervor and burning hatred, they have the perfect paragon of purity and righteousness, and they have the worst sense of what's tasteful in a whole imperium dedicated to being tasteless! It's “Trump full golden apartment” (DON'T TAKE THIS AS AN OCCASION TO TALK POLITICS IT'S NOT ABOUT POLITICS) level of bad taste! Sisters worship small bones coming from long-dead saints, half of which are actually false!!! And this worship give them a fervor that actually gives them an edge of the battleground!!!!!! HOW NOT TO LOVE? Who cares that they are women, beside the fact it gives some welcome diversity in gender?
I genuinely don't understand why so many people think Tau looks anime. I would like the Tau more if there were less emphasis on the suit and more on the infantry (and auxiliaries) though. And anyone saying Tau are communists don't understand communism, or don't understand the Tau, or more likely understand neither.
The way they were portrayed in the FW Taros book is perfect.
Oh, I disagree with this entirely. The Taros book had the Tau mopping the floor with the Imperium in just about every engagement because apparently they're the only ones in the galaxy who understand desert tactics. I get that they were a new army at the time, and the authors wanted to showcase them a bit, but the Imperials were SO incompetent that it felt like they never really posed a threat. It only got a little interesting at the end when the Imperials threw a hail mary pass with the Elysians and the Cadians (a la Arnhem 1944), but everything prior to that and the assassination mission was pretty boring.
I might be mixing editions up, but wasn't it the first Tau Codex that hinted towards the origins of the Tau as being one of The Deceiver's creations and that the Ethereals were 'artificial' and able to manipulate the Tau using pheromones and the like? I remember it reading very 'utopian' in parts, but there was always a sinister undercurrent that everything wasn't quite 'right' with Tau society. The undertones always made their 'greater good assimilation' seem that much more dangerous.
My recollection (which may be false) was that the Deceiver theories were mostly fan-made, though there might have been a few nuggets in some supplementary materials. I don't remember anything like that in the first codex, but again, I could be wrong.
The idea that the Ethereals were using pheromones (I believe) was present, but was framed in such a way as to be little more than Imperial xenophobia and conspiracy theories, rather than an actual analysis.
It's also possible that I'm linking Tau fluff to its exaggeration by Tau players, who I found absolutely insufferable at the time with regards to the points I raised earlier. Now that the fluff has matured a bit I don't really find myself having a problem with them at all.
A recent fan theory is that (some) of the 4th sphere could have been tossed backwards in time and the Tau uplifted themselves lol. I love this idea personally.
Jesus Christ the levels are through the roof. And as for the tau hate, read the new Farsight : Crisis of Faith book or ask someone about it, it's incredible. Plus the crisis suits are sexy, and probably the best models in the game, in close competition with the dreadnoughts. Give me more boxes on legs dammit!
The way they were portrayed in the FW Taros book is perfect.
Oh, I disagree with this entirely. The Taros book had the Tau mopping the floor with the Imperium in just about every engagement because apparently they're the only ones in the galaxy who understand desert tactics. I get that they were a new army at the time, and the authors wanted to showcase them a bit, but the Imperials were SO incompetent that it felt like they never really posed a threat. It only got a little interesting at the end when the Imperials threw a hail mary pass with the Elysians and the Cadians (a la Arnhem 1944), but everything prior to that and the assassination mission was pretty boring.
I meant doctrinally, with how it showed Tau's mix of combined arms, their tactical/strategic flexibility, and their willingness to embrace technological advancements to help adapt solutions to battlefield problems (such as the debut of the AX-1-0 as an anti-titan A-10 stand-in). I mostly treated the book as a story to highlight the Tau way of war; there are blatant holes in how they had to railroad the Imperial-side of the story to make it work. Even the most basic aspect and the reasoning for it - landing 500km away from their objectives - made no sense. The IG are one of the lore's constant whipping boys, though.
The Raid on Kastorel-Novem is another one. A veteran Elysian unit supporting Raven Guard... and Commanders in both approve a plan where the Elysians try a hammer and anvil approach where they... force the Orks to retreat into an ambushing force? Everywhere in the lore people take it as simple, well-known fact that Orks are dumb, brutish, and would rather charge to a losing fight than run away. Yet, veteran IG commanders think they're going to force an Ork group to... run away from them? Right.
sossen wrote: WH40k players disliking space marines is like a sports team fan disliking their own star player.
Not really, it's like those fans that dislike the most popular team in the championship and hope that anyone, but not that hated team, wins the competition.
40k is not marines, 30k is. SM are only one faction, the most popular one, but not everything is around them. I hate them, gamewise speaking of course, and they're certainly not may own star players, rather my rival ones
I meant doctrinally, with how it showed Tau's mix of combined arms, their tactical/strategic flexibility, and their willingness to embrace technological advancements to help adapt solutions to battlefield problems (such as the debut of the AX-1-0 as an anti-titan A-10 stand-in). I mostly treated the book as a story to highlight the Tau way of war; there are blatant holes in how they had to railroad the Imperial-side of the story to make it work. Even the most basic aspect and the reasoning for it - landing 500km away from their objectives - made no sense. The IG are one of the lore's constant whipping boys, though.
The Raid on Kastorel-Novem is another one. A veteran Elysian unit supporting Raven Guard... and Commanders in both approve a plan where the Elysians try a hammer and anvil approach where they... force the Orks to retreat into an ambushing force? Everywhere in the lore people take it as simple, well-known fact that Orks are dumb, brutish, and would rather charge to a losing fight than run away. Yet, veteran IG commanders think they're going to force an Ork group to... run away from them? Right.
Ah got it. Yes, it did showcase Tau doctrine under ideal circumstances. And you're right, there is a strange lack of self-awareness in many Imperial commanders who seem to have been trained with an inferior version of our strategies and expectations, rather than in a context where the most common enemy is psychotic fungal soccer hooligans. Baseline tactics really ought to shift a touch.
Unfortunatley, there's a lot of boring people who want 40k to become 30k, but they're boring so they're usually pretty easy to ignore like most boring people are.
Unfortunatley, there's a lot of boring people who want 40k to become 30k, but they're boring so they're usually pretty easy to ignore like most boring people are.
"if they were a spice they'd be flour. If they were a book they'd be two books."
If I need to have a most hated faction, it'd be the Tau.
They have little to no variety and are just plain boring to play against. Necrons are a close second.
I meant doctrinally, with how it showed Tau's mix of combined arms, their tactical/strategic flexibility, and their willingness to embrace technological advancements to help adapt solutions to battlefield problems (such as the debut of the AX-1-0 as an anti-titan A-10 stand-in). I mostly treated the book as a story to highlight the Tau way of war; there are blatant holes in how they had to railroad the Imperial-side of the story to make it work. Even the most basic aspect and the reasoning for it - landing 500km away from their objectives - made no sense. The IG are one of the lore's constant whipping boys, though.
The Raid on Kastorel-Novem is another one. A veteran Elysian unit supporting Raven Guard... and Commanders in both approve a plan where the Elysians try a hammer and anvil approach where they... force the Orks to retreat into an ambushing force? Everywhere in the lore people take it as simple, well-known fact that Orks are dumb, brutish, and would rather charge to a losing fight than run away. Yet, veteran IG commanders think they're going to force an Ork group to... run away from them? Right.
Ah got it. Yes, it did showcase Tau doctrine under ideal circumstances. And you're right, there is a strange lack of self-awareness in many Imperial commanders who seem to have been trained with an inferior version of our strategies and expectations, rather than in a context where the most common enemy is psychotic fungal soccer hooligans. Baseline tactics really ought to shift a touch.
IG itself is irrelevant to anything. Space Marines are what solve anything, always them for the most part. Hell, they even near retconned the one guardsmen Saint whom Horus killed, then I think made him Immortal to make it worthless to begin with. They have become a parody of itself.
sossen wrote: WH40k players disliking space marines is like a sports team fan disliking their own star player.
I think it's more like liking star wars but hating the Jedi. I don't get that but it's clear tyhere are a wide group of people whom do in fact feel that way. Those of us who like it do find it a bit weird, they're the poster boys, all the stories told are about them, but for the folks who dislike it "THATS THE POINT! THERE'S MORE TO THE SETTING AND THOSE POSTER BOYS ARE SUCKING UP ALL THE OXYGEN!" it's just a differant way of looking at the setting.
I don't really hate any particular faction. I just find some unnecessary.
Space Marines are the guardian monks and showcase of the pinnacle of humanity while the Imperial Guard is their heart and soul. The Mechanicus shows us how far we've fallen, and just how divided and inflexible we are as humans when it comes to overwhelming dogma. Eldar hearken back to a time before humanity and act as a warning for us, whereas the dark eldar lose the pompous nature of their brothers and show exactly what led to the downfall of the Eldar. Chaos Marines do the same for humanity, a reminder of what our weaknesses are. Daemons bring a lovecraftian vibe to the setting, a feel that this universe cannot be taken completely at face value, and that danger is always present, even in times of peace. The Necrons are the oldest surviving race and are a universal and mysterious evil, all while having an air of knowing something we don't. The tryanids bring a mindless, cosmic threat to the setting, one unknown in scope and origin. The orks are the brutal race that puts constant pressure on pretty much every faction, and will often surge to humble and surprise one of the other factions in their strength every now and then.
Then we have the... superfluous factions. The Sisters of Battle are just kinda there for fan-service. I see a lot of people saying that orks break the immersion from the grim dark universe, but for me, it's the women walking around in boob armor swinging around flamethrowers and chainswords. They could honestly work for me if they were actually taken seriously now and then. The Tau are... too clean. In this universe where every faction is clawing just to survive, the Tau seem too... relaxed. Sure, they have that totalitarian thing going on but when you compare North Korea to the Imperium of Man, suddenly Kim Jong Un seems like a pretty reasonable guy. They can't be tainted by Chaos, their traitors are even more noblebright than the main faction, and their technology is clean and spectacular despite being an extremely young race. That, and the whole Japanese aesthetic doesn't really work well in the setting.
So I don't really hate any faction, I just don't see why some were added. They don't detract anything, just distract.
This isn't my most hated faction, but I find Guard really boring. I understand how some people would see a universe where you can be anything and decide to be "just some dude" but that is not for me.
The fact that I think Death Korps of Krieg is really cool should tell you all you need to know about why I dislike baseline Astra Militarum.
Arachnofiend wrote: This isn't my most hated faction, but I find Guard really boring. I understand how some people would see a universe where you can be anything and decide to be "just some dude" but that is not for me.
The fact that I think Death Korps of Krieg is really cool should tell you all you need to know about why I dislike baseline Astra Militarum.
To be fair, most people who like IG don't like Astra Militarum. Let me explain:
The IG has always been super diverse. Any trope in the world fits in the IG. If you like medieval crusader-knights, you can play Black Templars, or you can play your own IG regiment from a feudal world. You like what happens when stone-age barbarians are given laser rifles, there's a place for that in the IG. If you want an army of wizards, the Imperial Guard can field whole squads of them. Did you want to play Delta-Force badasses who don't need the best gear, but just their wits and their training? There's a regiment for that. Did you like massive tanks? The IG has them. What about a high-tech world that uses hover tanks and land crawlers? Absolutely! A naval regiment from an ocean world? Definitely within the purview of the IG!
The problem is that their rules on the table are not that, and their recent fluff has been "Cadians and those other 5 regiments."
This is actually the reason I love them. They make the setting so much better by being that contrast. They are what would be in most settings, the main protagonist. While others are clawing to hold onto this empires or fading away the Tau are a young, intelligent race building towards a brighter future, a voice of reason and harmony between races rather than warring against one another...
And the group that we as a whole are supposed to be rooting for view them as monstrous abominations, where any who choose to side with them are traitorous scum worthy of nothing but a slow and agonizing death. By existing, by saying, "Hey, join us, work together, we can be so much more!" The Tau highlight just how horrible everything really is. The contrast between them, who would be the good guys in most settings, and the Imperium, who is the good guy in this setting, is stark and horrible. It really pushes the fact that the Imperium is a crap place to actually live in, one that considers anyone who listens to, "join us and we'll work together to make a better place to live" nothing more than a traitor to exterminate.
You can't really have a setting where everything is awful, or else it all just kind of blends together and fades away to an extent. But by having that speck of light be something the "good guys" are not only actively against, but trying to stamp out, it puts everything else into focus.
This is actually the reason I love them. They make the setting so much better by being that contrast. They are what would be in most settings, the main protagonist. While others are clawing to hold onto this empires or fading away the Tau are a young, intelligent race building towards a brighter future, a voice of reason and harmony between races rather than warring against one another...
And the group that we as a whole are supposed to be rooting for view them as monstrous abominations, where any who choose to side with them are traitorous scum worthy of nothing but a slow and agonizing death. By existing, by saying, "Hey, join us, work together, we can be so much more!" The Tau highlight just how horrible everything really is. The contrast between them, who would be the good guys in most settings, and the Imperium, who is the good guy in this setting, is stark and horrible. It really pushes the fact that the Imperium is a crap place to actually live in, one that considers anyone who listens to, "join us and we'll work together to make a better place to live" nothing more than a traitor to exterminate.
You can't really have a setting where everything is awful, or else it all just kind of blends together and fades away to an extent. But by having that speck of light be something the "good guys" are not only actively against, but trying to stamp out, it puts everything else into focus.
Wow your view of the Tau is backwards from mine.
I started to like them myself for the opposite reason. I used to think of them as noblebright scum trying to ruin my 40k with such things as 'logic' and 'sense'... until my friend talked to me about it. I told him that, and he said:
"No, you're wrong, you're absolutely wrong. Think about if the Tau Empire was in Star Trek, or Star Wars, or Doctor Who. They'd absolutely be bad guys. Expansionist authoritarians, who expect you to serve the State without question, who offer peace but only on their terms, and who are unhesitating to use force upon those who do not comply with their ideology or doctrine. They will not have mutual peace, they cannot live-and-let-live; their ideology mandates that it be spread to all the corners of the galaxy. In any other setting, they would be an abhorrent evil, no better than the Borg."
I saved this chat blurb and still to this day am reminded as to why I no longer dislike the Tau (as much as I used to. They're still filthy inhuman xenos).
This is actually the reason I love them. They make the setting so much better by being that contrast. They are what would be in most settings, the main protagonist. While others are clawing to hold onto this empires or fading away the Tau are a young, intelligent race building towards a brighter future, a voice of reason and harmony between races rather than warring against one another...
And the group that we as a whole are supposed to be rooting for view them as monstrous abominations, where any who choose to side with them are traitorous scum worthy of nothing but a slow and agonizing death. By existing, by saying, "Hey, join us, work together, we can be so much more!" The Tau highlight just how horrible everything really is. The contrast between them, who would be the good guys in most settings, and the Imperium, who is the good guy in this setting, is stark and horrible. It really pushes the fact that the Imperium is a crap place to actually live in, one that considers anyone who listens to, "join us and we'll work together to make a better place to live" nothing more than a traitor to exterminate.
You can't really have a setting where everything is awful, or else it all just kind of blends together and fades away to an extent. But by having that speck of light be something the "good guys" are not only actively against, but trying to stamp out, it puts everything else into focus.
Wow your view of the Tau is backwards from mine.
I started to like them myself for the opposite reason. I used to think of them as noblebright scum trying to ruin my 40k with such things as 'logic' and 'sense'... until my friend talked to me about it. I told him that, and he said:
"No, you're wrong, you're absolutely wrong. Think about if the Tau Empire was in Star Trek, or Star Wars, or Doctor Who. They'd absolutely be bad guys. Expansionist authoritarians, who expect you to serve the State without question, who offer peace but only on their terms, and who are unhesitating to use force upon those who do not comply with their ideology or doctrine. They will not have mutual peace, they cannot live-and-let-live; their ideology mandates that it be spread to all the corners of the galaxy. In any other setting, they would be an abhorrent evil, no better than the Borg."
I saved this chat blurb and still to this day am reminded as to why I no longer dislike the Tau (as much as I used to. They're still filthy inhuman xenos).
Both interpretations are part of what makes the Tau a good addition to the 40K universe. In the 40K Milky Way, they are that pinprick of light to highlight how terrible the other factions are.
But then when we compare them to other settings, as you point out, we realise they are still horrific in their ideology. This only serves to even further highlight the grimdark of the 40K universe where even the faction which appears to be the one tiny source of hope is actually horrific when compared outside the 40K universe.
The tyranid guns are mostly supposed to be separate creatures to the host. Hence most of the guns having eyes on them.
However the weapon and the host are grown together, and have fused around each other.
The hosts fingers have grown into the weapon, connecting their circulatory systems.
Their hands have splayed out and twisted around and through the weapon.
Tubes have grown from the weapon into the hosts flesh.
There's no way a tyranid could drop its weapon and pick up another. You can see this just be looking at the models.
Check out this venom cannon. You can still see something resembling hands wrapped around it. Vestigial fingers integrating with the weapon symbiote. But it's pretty hard to say the host is 'holding' the weapon. They are inseparable.
Makes sense from a modularity point of view. It would be easier to maintain a single 'template' for gaunts, and one for each of the compatible weapon creatures, than to have a separate template for each and every sub-species of gaunt.
I get how the whole thing works and I do appreciate how the biological aspects of the weapon symbiotes are addressed, really.
That said, I too am in the camp that dislikes the aesthetics of the ranged weapon symbiotes.
I guess my beef with them is that they just don't...seem alien enough? Like the 'gun' look of the ranged weapon symbiotes kind of clashes with the rest of the feral alien vibe they have going on.
The only ranged 'Nid weapons I really appreciate aesthetically are the ones that look more integrated and naturally biological - like the bio/pyrovores and exocrines. It's for this reason that the only ranged models I have in my Tyranid collection, at present, are some zoanthropes, hive crones and trygons. I would like to pick up some of the aforementioned artillery beasties at some point, though (and Emperor knows my 'Nids could use some more ranged punch).
Far too overplayed which makes 'em so boring to play against, far too many resources are put into them by GW, far too focus from Black Library, far too many off-shoot codexes. Hell, we literally have a spin-off game ABOUT SPACE MARINES FIGHTING SPACE MARINES.
Their lore comes down to some variation of "and then the Space Marines arrived in time for the Imperial Guard/Sisters of Battle to drop to their knees in awe, and so did the Space Marines totally destroy [Chaos/Xenos race] and it was sick, and epic and metal yo. Company Commander Latinus earned an honour for this overwhelming victory and vowed to pursue [Chaos/Xenos race] until they were finally defeated!" Warhammer 40,000 isn't so grimdark when every other story involves Space Marines being epic and annihilating everything. For all people like to cry Chaos wins too often it sure doesn't feel like the Imperium's actually losing anything.
All the sub-factions of marines and chaos space marines - but not because I don't like the models/fluff/etc. I hate the fact that they take up the release slot as if they were a completely different army line. I'd be happy if space wolves, blood angels, and dark angels were just in the space marine codex similar to say raven guard.
But I still have a dislike of Tau because of Intercepting Riptides. It takes a while to get over 400-800 points getting evaporated before they do anything each game.
Tau, purely because of my experience playing against them.
You can't out-shoot them, depending on the list you can't deep-strike around them, and if you try to charge them with what remains after they've been shot at for the duration of their travel, For the Greater Good means they get taken apart.
My most hated faction is Forgeworld (I know it is no a real faction). Seriously why does every one of their vehicles have like 4 special rules. " This land raider has a thud-gun for a main weapon. Cool. Wait it also can still carry three models as passengers? Wait it also reduces the effectiveness of lance/melta for some reason? Wait it also subtracts 1 from the damage chart?" That is how I feel about much of Forgeworld. They always seem to tack on all these crazy rules many of which don't seem like they are play tested very well (worse than GW), any many of which don't seem necessary. And the points are either way to expensive, or way to cheap. I have never played a Forgeworld unit that I thought was balanced in any version of 40k, either one way or the other. I know a lot of people love Forgeworld, but that is just my two cents.
Additionally, I have never told anyone that I would not play them because they wanted to use a Forgeworld unit, I just don't really like them.
xeen wrote: My most hated faction is Forgeworld (I know it is no a real faction). Seriously why does every one of their vehicles have like 4 special rules. " This land raider has a thud-gun for a main weapon. Cool. Wait it also can still carry three models as passengers? Wait it also reduces the effectiveness of lance/melta for some reason? Wait it also subtracts 1 from the damage chart?" That is how I feel about much of Forgeworld. They always seem to tack on all these crazy rules many of which don't seem like they are play tested very well (worse than GW), any many of which don't seem necessary. And the points are either way to expensive, or way to cheap. I have never played a Forgeworld unit that I thought was balanced in any version of 40k, either one way or the other. I know a lot of people love Forgeworld, but that is just my two cents.
Additionally, I have never told anyone that I would not play them because they wanted to use a Forgeworld unit, I just don't really like them.
I think you're having cognitive bias here. Just as an example:
There are 35 Astra Militarum Vehicle entries in the FW website. Only 6 or 7 have special rules that aren't taken from GW models.
A lot of what FW does is just variant models, like (e.g.) Hazard Environment Cadians or Ryza-pattern Vanquisher turret. In fact, lately, I feel like they've been struggling to keep themselves separate from GW in some ways, fabricating special rules for various units (e.g. the Tank Hunter rule for the Valdor Tank Hunter, which is the same thing as a vanquisher cannon does but is on the tank rather than the gun) just to try to draw a distinction.
xeen wrote: My most hated faction is Forgeworld (I know it is no a real faction). Seriously why does every one of their vehicles have like 4 special rules. " This land raider has a thud-gun for a main weapon. Cool. Wait it also can still carry three models as passengers? Wait it also reduces the effectiveness of lance/melta for some reason? Wait it also subtracts 1 from the damage chart?" That is how I feel about much of Forgeworld. They always seem to tack on all these crazy rules many of which don't seem like they are play tested very well (worse than GW), any many of which don't seem necessary. And the points are either way to expensive, or way to cheap. I have never played a Forgeworld unit that I thought was balanced in any version of 40k, either one way or the other. I know a lot of people love Forgeworld, but that is just my two cents.
Additionally, I have never told anyone that I would not play them because they wanted to use a Forgeworld unit, I just don't really like them.
I think you're having cognitive bias here. Just as an example:
There are 35 Astra Militarum Vehicle entries in the FW website. Only 6 or 7 have special rules that aren't taken from GW models.
A lot of what FW does is just variant models, like (e.g.) Hazard Environment Cadians or Ryza-pattern Vanquisher turret. In fact, lately, I feel like they've been struggling to keep themselves separate from GW in some ways, fabricating special rules for various units (e.g. the Tank Hunter rule for the Valdor Tank Hunter, which is the same thing as a vanquisher cannon does but is on the tank rather than the gun) just to try to draw a distinction.
Fair enough. Maybe it was just the people I was playing. But it left a bad taste in my mouth for forge world
xeen wrote: My most hated faction is Forgeworld (I know it is no a real faction). Seriously why does every one of their vehicles have like 4 special rules. " This land raider has a thud-gun for a main weapon. Cool. Wait it also can still carry three models as passengers? Wait it also reduces the effectiveness of lance/melta for some reason? Wait it also subtracts 1 from the damage chart?" That is how I feel about much of Forgeworld. They always seem to tack on all these crazy rules many of which don't seem like they are play tested very well (worse than GW), any many of which don't seem necessary. And the points are either way to expensive, or way to cheap. I have never played a Forgeworld unit that I thought was balanced in any version of 40k, either one way or the other. I know a lot of people love Forgeworld, but that is just my two cents.
Additionally, I have never told anyone that I would not play them because they wanted to use a Forgeworld unit, I just don't really like them.
I think you're having cognitive bias here. Just as an example:
There are 35 Astra Militarum Vehicle entries in the FW website. Only 6 or 7 have special rules that aren't taken from GW models.
I would argue you're too quick to jump onto rational wiki for a response.
How many of those 35 AM vehicles do you see regularly? If you see any, they're usually one of the 6 or 7. SM get a bunch of FW special vehicles but you'll pretty much only ever see flareshield spartans.
I have never liked the Tau. Fluff and the rules. Maybe it's because they don't have a fantasy equivalent? I also, and I realize that 'hate' is a strong word to use in a conversation about toy soldiers, absolutely hate the Primaris Marines. I was half way ready to start a homebrew chapter of space marines, mostly because I am so jealous of the tactical marine box (I play chaos). Well now that primaris marines are on the scene, I just can't get enthusiastic about the project.
I have never liked the Tau. Fluff and the rules. Maybe it's because they don't have a fantasy equivalent? I also, and I realize that 'hate' is a strong word to use in a conversation about toy soldiers, absolutely hate the Primaris Marines. I was half way ready to start a homebrew chapter of space marines, mostly because I am so jealous of the tactical marine box (I play chaos). Well now that primaris marines are on the scene, I just can't get enthusiastic about the project.
But if you play Chaos, could you not just pick up some of the super-cheap heresy-marine plastic kits that are the same quality as the current tactical kit, come with tons of options, and allow you to field a chaos army that looks like an army rather than a bunch of cartoon looneys?
A little bit of weathering and maybe a mutation or two and you'd have a very slick looking chaos marine army.
xeen wrote: My most hated faction is Forgeworld (I know it is no a real faction). Seriously why does every one of their vehicles have like 4 special rules. " This land raider has a thud-gun for a main weapon. Cool. Wait it also can still carry three models as passengers? Wait it also reduces the effectiveness of lance/melta for some reason? Wait it also subtracts 1 from the damage chart?" That is how I feel about much of Forgeworld. They always seem to tack on all these crazy rules many of which don't seem like they are play tested very well (worse than GW), any many of which don't seem necessary. And the points are either way to expensive, or way to cheap. I have never played a Forgeworld unit that I thought was balanced in any version of 40k, either one way or the other. I know a lot of people love Forgeworld, but that is just my two cents.
Additionally, I have never told anyone that I would not play them because they wanted to use a Forgeworld unit, I just don't really like them.
I think you're having cognitive bias here. Just as an example:
There are 35 Astra Militarum Vehicle entries in the FW website. Only 6 or 7 have special rules that aren't taken from GW models.
I would argue you're too quick to jump onto rational wiki for a response.
How many of those 35 AM vehicles do you see regularly? If you see any, they're usually one of the 6 or 7. SM get a bunch of FW special vehicles but you'll pretty much only ever see flareshield spartans.
Isn't that a player issue and not a FW issue though? I personally own damn near 1 of everything at least. Why ban everything if only like 1 thing is a problem? Should we ban Codex Space Marines because of Guilliman?
Blood Angels,
Mostly because there players always yust yust whine about beign worse thenn the regular marines,
but still fume whenn you suggest they maybe should yust be rolled into the space marine codex.
Amoras wrote: Blood Angels,
Mostly because there players always yust yust whine about beign worse thenn the regular marines,
but still fume whenn you suggest they maybe should yust be rolled into the space marine codex.
This has been said before but hate is a strong word. But having said that, there are lots of factions in 40k that bug me.
All the non standard marines. The wolves, the angels (both of them), the grey knights...but not the Death Watch. They're actually kind of cool. But the others just annoy me, for reasons others pointed out.
The sisters also annoy me. There's potential there but they're being presented all wrong imo.
Orks...I'm in two frames of mind. On the one hand, they're terrifyingly alien and utterly, remorselessly evil by human standards. On the other hand, they're max mad lunatics wearing scrap metal. That's silly. But it's enjoyably silly.
Chaos...not a fan of them in 40k. The demons especially. In a fantasy setting like AoS then yes, absolutely! They're perfect bad guys for that! But in 40k...I can't feel it.
I don't really hate anything but I have bugbears for a couple of aspects of 40k.
Fluff-wise.
Grey Knights.
All psykers, happy to kill entire populations but never had a fall to Chaos without any reasoning why that might be or any kind of downside for this supposed resistance.
On the table-top.
Imperial Knights, I don't like the bigger stuff in general but I have a sore spot for IKs they just bore me to tears. My armies can take them, I have two but damned if I'll ever use them.
Model design.
I was never fond of the Tau but that's because they look like they were ripped straight out of Appleseed and Robotech.
Believe it or not I'm not fond of off the sprue Space Wolves either - hunters my ass, they carry too many jangly trinkets for any kind of stalking.
Codex.
You know it's funny that the Tau designs were jacked straight out of anime but for some reason the Space Wolves can't use the better unit names they have in their own fiction.
Amoras wrote: Blood Angels,
Mostly because there players always yust yust whine about beign worse thenn the regular marines,
That's mostly Martel.
He's not entirely incorrect. Tournament showings were in which edition? 5th? That's about it. They also do need to be rolled into the main codex as does Dark Angels. They're not different enough like Space Wolves and Grey Knights to warrant their own Codices.
Amoras wrote: Blood Angels,
Mostly because there players always yust yust whine about beign worse thenn the regular marines,
That's mostly Martel.
He's not entirely incorrect. Tournament showings were in which edition? 5th? That's about it. They also do need to be rolled into the main codex as does Dark Angels. They're not different enough like Space Wolves and Grey Knights to warrant their own Codices.
It's more about delivery than content.
I agree on DA and BA. Black Templars are more different than vanilla marines than BA or DA and they don't have their own dex.
Amoras wrote: Blood Angels,
Mostly because there players always yust yust whine about beign worse thenn the regular marines,
That's mostly Martel.
He's not entirely incorrect. Tournament showings were in which edition? 5th? That's about it. They also do need to be rolled into the main codex as does Dark Angels. They're not different enough like Space Wolves and Grey Knights to warrant their own Codices.
It's more about delivery than content.
I agree on DA and BA. Black Templars are more different than vanilla marines than BA or DA and they don't have their own dex.
They did, they just weren't popular enough to hang onto it. Pity, the Templars were pretty awesome.
Dakka Wolf wrote: They did, they just weren't popular enough to hang onto it. Pity, the Templars were pretty awesome.
If they had a 5th Edition codex like Blood Angels, that may have been a different story. Blood Angels weren't terribly popular until they could take Assault Marines as Troops (i.e. their pre-5th WD and 5th Ed codex). Black Templars just weren't supported much past their 4th Edition codex, so they didn't see as many obvious sales.
I wouldn't say that I hate one faction. I think the game is bloated with imperial factions, though. Literally half the factions in the game are Imperium and all the fluff is written from imperial perspective. Every now and then that seems too much, especially since all non-imperial factions are more interesting. Inside the imperial faction it's probably the Space Marines that I'm a little annoyed by, but that's because of GWs releases more than the actual style model or gamewise. Yes, even Ultrasmurfs are kind of cool sometimes, it simply gets boring when they are always the posterboys while at the same time fielding the ridiculously small numer of 1000marines. Seriousely, if it weren't for plot armour SMs would be the most unimportant faction in 40K. I could live with a Codex for every 1st founding SM chapter, if there was one for every Ork Klan, craftworld, Dynastie or Sept as well. 40K simply needs more cool Aliens like Tau.
Sgt. Cortez wrote: I wouldn't say that I hate one faction. I think the game is bloated with imperial factions, though. Literally half the factions in the game are Imperium and all the fluff is written from imperial perspective. Every now and then that seems too much, especially since all non-imperial factions are more interesting. Inside the imperial faction it's probably the Space Marines that I'm a little annoyed by, but that's because of GWs releases more than the actual style model or gamewise. Yes, even Ultrasmurfs are kind of cool sometimes, it simply gets boring when they are always the posterboys while at the same time fielding the ridiculously small numer of 1000marines. Seriousely, if it weren't for plot armour SMs would be the most unimportant faction in 40K. I could live with a Codex for every 1st founding SM chapter, if there was one for every Ork Klan, craftworld, Dynastie or Sept as well. 40K simply needs more cool Aliens like Tau.
I agree with your initial point, but not for the reason that you think it. I think it's perfectly fine to lorewise focus on the human side of things. Even if it was 98% focus on it, I'd think that's totally fine. Or the Ork side if that was the main focus. What I do not like is that gameplaywise the Imperium faction is vastly overrepresented, because of the ally rules. I would want each sub-faction to be its own contained army. It makes balancing a much more reasonable thing, and it makes each army feel much more unique than just "oh, you wanted fliers? Why not just pick some from the smurfs?" .. I'm Ad Mech. I'd think my own faction would be able to provide a machine... And then my army is balanced around being able to pick from those armies, but I picked Ad Mech for a reason, I don't want to have to pick units from the space marines. Imagine if Tyranids were told that "yes, your army sorta sucks, but that's because your army synergises really well with the Ork army." Well I didn't pick Orks as my army and I don't want it! I want my hungry bugs! "tough luck."
I definitely think that's a lot of overlap with the imperial factions. Also, who was it who said about the grey knights being so pure they can just withstand the temptations of chaos just...because? Because you're right. That bugs the arse of me.
It's probably a bad idea suggesting rewrites to the fluff but if the grey knights just didn't exist and instead the sisters of silence did their role, I think that would be much more interesting. They can withstand all the temptations of chaos and defend us from it...because they're soulless monsters of a sort who scare the gak out of everyone else. It's all they can do, and it's all they can hope for.
But I said before that chaos in 40k never quite sat right with me anyway so...I don't know.
Yes you know its going to be a lots of fun when you see the Demon Princes getting ready for deployment.
However must say that 7th edition toned the absurd crap down a bit. Have not looked at Chaos in 8th because I don't have to
know that they will have something that will be a joke gone to far.
Must I always felt sorry for Dark Elder players because just about everyone kicked their but.
Honestly, I have to say I really have a hatred for Ad Mech and Imperial Knights because in my view they shouldn't even be an "army". fething stupid. What they should have done is just make the Knights a damn Lord of War choice for SM and AM. Whatever.
Must I always felt sorry for Dark Elder players because just about everyone kicked their but.
Huh? In 6th edition my double Beast-star list ravaged almost every army I came up against including screamerstars/dogstars and seer councils. But yes, on the whole DE are an unforgiving faction
Model design.
I was never fond of the Tau but that's because they look like they were ripped straight out of Appleseed and Robotech.
Funny how things are... that's precisely one of the biggest reasons I got into Tau
Because they were unlikely to get rolled back into the vanilla Tau codex? Seems reasonable.
Edit - Sorry about that, I didn't actually read what you'd quoted me saying and just continued with the conversation. I'm guessing you see the Tau designs as a nod to shows you liked while I see them as more of a copyright infringement.
Sumilidon wrote: Space Marines, because GW have such a hard on for them that their progress, models and campaigns are always at the expense of non-SM players.
GW only has a hard on for UM and SW. I would argue they are trying to slowly retcon out IH.
Klak wrote: IG is for old men who would rather be playing a WW II miniature game
If you consider 19 as old man age, then your theory stands. If not, that's a shame
If you look at it as a personality type there is a bit of merit to his observation - my family constantly tells me I've been a grumpy old man since I was a toddler - admittedly, I play Space Wolves and Tyrannids - but there are ways of being an old man without living seventy odd years.
Dakka Wolf wrote: If you look at it as a personality type there is a bit of merit to his observation - my family constantly tells me I've been a grumpy old man since I was a toddler - admittedly, I play Space Wolves and Tyrannids - but there are ways of being an old man without living seventy odd years.
Even if a correlation can be drawn between having a grumpy personality and playing IG, it is simply a correlation at best. There is no evidence that IG is really just for grumpy people, or that playing IG makes you a grumpy person.
Besides, as well as being young, I'm considered to be quite energetic and generally optimistic by friends, family and colleagues. One in a thousand, perhaps, but it's more a point to show how his "observation" holds no real objective credit.
Dakka Wolf wrote: If you look at it as a personality type there is a bit of merit to his observation - my family constantly tells me I've been a grumpy old man since I was a toddler - admittedly, I play Space Wolves and Tyrannids - but there are ways of being an old man without living seventy odd years.
Even if a correlation can be drawn between having a grumpy personality and playing IG, it is simply a correlation at best. There is no evidence that IG is really just for grumpy people, or that playing IG makes you a grumpy person.
Besides, as well as being young, I'm considered to be quite energetic and generally optimistic by friends, family and colleagues. One in a thousand, perhaps, but it's more a point to show how his "observation" holds no real objective credit.
Optimistic, funny how that seems to conflict with your username, kind of ironic actually.
Now that I think about it of the three IG players I know, only one is over thirty and he's not the grumpy one, just an incredibly slow player - even for an IG player. Who needs to retract and extend the damn tape measure for every new measurement and double measure a model that hasn't moved since the start of the game?
I'm surprised people don't like Guard, they get my vote as the most grim-dark army, truly depressing.
Dakka Wolf wrote: Optimistic, funny how that seems to conflict with your username, kind of ironic actually.
You can be annoying and still be a positive character
Now that I think about it of the three IG players I know, only one is over thirty and he's not the grumpy one, just an incredibly slow player - even for an IG player. Who needs to retract and extend the damn tape measure for every new measurement and double measure a model that hasn't moved since the start of the game?
Well at least he's pleasant to play with - that's what matters.
I've only known one other IG player, back in Dubai. He was Emirati, and essentially taught me all the tactics and compositions I know with IG back in 5th Ed; a very welcome member of the club there, that's for sure.
I'm surprised people don't like Guard, they get my vote as the most grim-dark army, truly depressing.
I like them because they're the true underdogs of 40k. They aren't genetically enhanced supersoldiers, or leatherskinned xenos with superior technology. They're just men and women with lasguns and fire in their hearts - humanity's first and last line of defence. There's a very indescribable appeal with IG, which is probably why a lot of people aren't fond of them; they just know them for spamming Lascannons and Leman Russes (and now Conscripts), and not for the joy of using them to face down the far more deadly enemies of the Imperium without faltering.
I like them because they're the true underdogs of 40k. They aren't genetically enhanced supersoldiers, or leatherskinned xenos with superior technology. They're just men and women with lasguns and fire in their hearts - humanity's first and last line of defence. There's a very indescribable appeal with IG, which is probably why a lot of people aren't fond of them; they just know them for spamming Lascannons and Leman Russes (and now Conscripts), and not for the joy of using them to face down the far more deadly enemies of the Imperium without faltering.
Well said.
I think IG is the most exciting faction in the game and by a long shot. Their every victory is a glorious one, while their every defeat is just a blib in the radar, at the most.
I am reminded of Lieutenant Chard's exchange with Colour Sergeant Bourne at the end of Zulu:
"Lt. Chard: If it's a miracle, Colour Sergeant, it's a short chamber Boxer-Henry point-four-five caliber miracle.
Sgt. Bourne: And a bayonet, sir, with some guts behind it."
Dakka Wolf wrote: Optimistic, funny how that seems to conflict with your username, kind of ironic actually.
You can be annoying and still be a positive character
Now that I think about it of the three IG players I know, only one is over thirty and he's not the grumpy one, just an incredibly slow player - even for an IG player. Who needs to retract and extend the damn tape measure for every new measurement and double measure a model that hasn't moved since the start of the game?
Well at least he's pleasant to play with - that's what matters.
I've only known one other IG player, back in Dubai. He was Emirati, and essentially taught me all the tactics and compositions I know with IG back in 5th Ed; a very welcome member of the club there, that's for sure.
I'm surprised people don't like Guard, they get my vote as the most grim-dark army, truly depressing.
I like them because they're the true underdogs of 40k. They aren't genetically enhanced supersoldiers, or leatherskinned xenos with superior technology. They're just men and women with lasguns and fire in their hearts - humanity's first and last line of defence. There's a very indescribable appeal with IG, which is probably why a lot of people aren't fond of them; they just know them for spamming Lascannons and Leman Russes (and now Conscripts), and not for the joy of using them to face down the far more deadly enemies of the Imperium without faltering.
I was with you right up until the "fire in their hearts" part, I'd replace the fire with the knowledge their C.O. is as likely to kill them as anything else in the universe
I have an entirely unfair bias against guard due to the fact that both of the people who play guard are the sort who will start talking about /pol/ and how great it is at the drop of a hat.
Dakka Wolf wrote: I was with you right up until the "fire in their hearts" part, I'd replace the fire with the knowledge their C.O. is as likely to kill them as anything else in the universe
That part is actually in the intro page of the 5th ed codex, albeit a bit paraphrased by me
As Bob says, it depends on the regiment, even the company to an extent. Some fight out of fear, others out of hatred, others still out of stupidity. The Guard as a whole cares not what your motives to fight are, only that you fight, win, or die fighting.
I am reminded of Lieutenant Chard's exchange with Colour Sergeant Bourne at the end of Zulu:
"Lt. Chard: If it's a miracle, Colour Sergeant, it's a short chamber Boxer-Henry point-four-five caliber miracle.
Sgt. Bourne: And a bayonet, sir, with some guts behind it."
Watched Zulu again yesterday night. Absolutely crackin' piece of cinema. Bourne's probably the best character, and it's a strong bunch.
Dakka Wolf wrote: I was with you right up until the "fire in their hearts" part, I'd replace the fire with the knowledge their C.O. is as likely to kill them as anything else in the universe
That part is actually in the intro page of the 5th ed codex, albeit a bit paraphrased by me
As Bob says, it depends on the regiment, even the company to an extent. Some fight out of fear, others out of hatred, others still out of stupidity. The Guard as a whole cares not what your motives to fight are, only that you fight, win, or die fighting.
I got to say that I feel most people who chose orks, really don't understand the heart of 40k. 40k has always been built around humor, no matter how dark and dry, and really isn't supposed to take itself seriously. I don't really see how they could be considered not grimdark enough. Their whole culture is revolved around essentially murdering people for fun.
Though Orks change pretty wildly depending on the author depicting them. Sometimes Orks are displayed in a "slapstick" humor kind of way, and I do find that off putting.
I'm very confused by everyone saying that Tau do not fit in the universe. The existence of the Eldar already proves that they have every right to be in 40k, yet somehow every tau hater seems to ignore that?
I'm not even a huge weeb and I have massive respect for the tau. (Aesthetically and fluff wise at least) The presence of Tau and Eldar gives a very nice contrast to the rest of the world and really gives it whole new dimensions and depth. The sleek, pretty, and smooth alien vehicles and troops of the tau and eldar give an amazing contrast to the crude, bulky, and brutal troops and vehicles of the orks, imperium, and chaos. Without them, the whole world of 40k would be much more flat and boring imo. Variety is the spice of life and all that.
Even if you don't personally enjoy them, you can at least respect them as an enemy to fight and slaughter
As for my least favorite faction, while I don't hate any of them, I have the most problems with them.
Necrons
Their aesthetic is amazing and I really do love their models. Sadly they have some of the most boring fluff in the whole game. They don't really have a super defining characteristic or vibe that really make the other factions so interesting. The whole goal of their faction is to just wake up the tomb worlds and rise to their former glory. That's all. There's different dynasties with different goals but that doesn't matter all that much in the grand scheme of things. By far the most interesting part of the fluff is how most of the overlords and lords went insane during the great sleep and now are awake and crazy. Sadly, this is barely touched on, and when it is, not very well.
Eldar
I respect them wholeheartedly, but they really just don't do much for me. They do have some interesting parts of them that I really do love (particularly, howling banshees, everything wraith related, and the whole how eldar are to humans what humans are to cattle idea) but for the most part are a little too sterile and clean for my taste.
Space Marines
Mostly for just the oversaturation and mary sue aspects of the faction. Worst offenders are Grey Knights and Ultramarines. They don't have any real weaknesses and the whole "we are the best and most bad ass and can never be beaten" just makes them really uncompelling. I feel the same way towards superman in this regard. In an effort to make the most badass and cool beings in the universe, they really did the opposite and just made them the blandest most boring beings in the universe.
Cyriss. A perfect fusion of bad writers, poor balance, awful visual design, and bad fanfiction smooshed together into a frustrating non-interactive ball of irritating goo.
*beat*
Attempting to be more on-topic rules-wise I hate Grey Knights the most, since they run entirely on stupid gimmicks built around my least favorite parts of the 8e rules (Smite and Deep Strike) and are otherwise bland and dull, and lore-wise I hate the more protagonist-y Space Marine Chapters (Space Wolves, Ultramarines, occasionally Blood Angels) the most since they're highly flanderized anti-intellectual dull caricatures whose lore mostly consists of writers telling us how much we should love them rather than anything interesting happening.
(Rolling back off-topic for a minute into other games in Star Wars it's hard to hate any factions since there are so few but the shiny-happy-friendly Rebel portrayals probably come close (and the Rebels in X-Wing tabletop-wise because every *bleep*ing list is 75pts+Biggs), it's hard to hate any factions in Infinity since they're designed by intelligent people who manage to preserve faction personality without stuffing the game with faction-specific mechanics, and I hate all the End Times-and-beyond factions in AoS equally because they're all equally silly-looking blobs of gibberish (special pass to the sky-dwarves since they're the first dwarves anyone has ever made for anything that don't look ridiculous), but especially the combined-elves for reducing six thousand years of genocidal war to the bulls*** "come back, Malekith, we love you" alternate-universe-fanfiction resolution, and the Sylvaneth for trying to convince me that reducing the elves to the forest spirits out of a book I didn't even play was in some way better than making some new elf models.)
Runner-up to the Necrons, for GW's inability to design them in a way that doesn't feel incredibly irritating on the tabletop (independent of their actual effectiveness they're always just annoying), and to the Space Marine factions with special-character Chapter Masters, for turning 8th into a new way of punishing people for wanting to write their own lore/make their own models instead of using the Chapters GW wrote.
So yeah. Plenty of hate stretching across space, time, and game systems. I would like to stress, however, that I have nothing against human beings who decide that something on my list of hated things is cool and feel like playing it, my hate is reserved for the idiots who wrote the things.
the only things I don't like are the anime look of tau, they don't fit all the rest IMO, and the fluff of dark eldar. The "i like pain above anything else" feels lame..
I'm very confused by everyone saying that Tau do not fit in the universe. The existence of the Eldar already proves that they have every right to be in 40k, yet somehow every tau hater seems to ignore that?
I'm not even a huge weeb and I have massive respect for the tau. (Aesthetically and fluff wise at least) The presence of Tau and Eldar gives a very nice contrast to the rest of the world and really gives it whole new dimensions and depth. The sleek, pretty, and smooth alien vehicles and troops of the tau and eldar give an amazing contrast to the crude, bulky, and brutal troops and vehicles of the orks, imperium, and chaos. Without them, the whole world of 40k would be much more flat and boring imo. Variety is the spice of life and all that.
Even if you don't personally enjoy them, you can at least respect them as an enemy to fight and slaughter
But... the Tau don't even fight in melee!
They only build big, strong robot suits so that they could carry more and bigger guns.
Visually it's IG for me. I think they don't fit among super-soldiers, advanced xenos races or literal demons. Especially their WWI tanks.
Mechanically it's also IG. My worst game ever was in a 5 man team tournament in 7th edition. My Eldar got paired against an IG foot soldier spam enemy. I could've won the game easily if it wasn't for him stalling. During the 2:30h we managed to play only 2 turns.
So I am a huge tank nerd (wrote my dissertation on modern and near-future MBTs for graduate school) and I love the IG tanks.
I think they're one of the few holdouts left that harkens back to real 40k fluff, where everything has fallen apart so badly that a gakky tractor with a gun is a reasonable tank.
The Imperial Guard, for me, represent some of the best and worst aspects of humanity that the other "human" factions sort of lose in their quest for an identity. The Guard are hidebound traditionalists, unwilling (or unable!) to see past their present situation. Such a myopic vision means the Leman Russ is an excellent tank, not because it is a perfect design drawn by a genius engineer but because it is easy and cheap. The Imperial Guard spend lives by the thousands, millions, or even billions for an objective not because of great tactical skill but because it is easy, and comparatively cheap - life is free.
But
Other regiments are better. Other regiments use locally built tanks, or are fortunate enough to have a genius commander who can see past the myopic gaze of his compatriots and make true, war-winning plans. Still more are blessed with Imperial superheavy tanks, which are not quite as shoddy as the Leman Russ and are blessed with a splinter of Mankind's lost power. Some regiments are forward-thinking, utilizing maneuver warfare and unit dispersal to inflict much higher casualties upon most opponents than they suffer in return.
Some regiments have both, with gifted company commanders struggling haplessly against the iron grip of a regimental colonel who would climb higher in social station atop a mound of slain men.
The guard are the best and worst of humanity, and I think their tanks epitomize that well. Tough, numerous, and myriad in form and function, with everything from a lowly Hellhound all the way to the Imperial superheavy line. Each awful design is just like a person - ill-suited to the situation it is "born" into, but struggling on anyways, succeeding by virtue of sheer resilience and bloodymindedness.
I like the design of the baneblade, but the smaller tanks bug me a little with their catapiller tracks and poor fire arcs.
Who here thinks ratlings should either be rethought or just ditched altogether? Because I'm leaning that way myself.
Also, just asking again, do you guys hate the necrons more for their fluff or for their rules? I love the idea of them but perhaps GW isn't using them to their full potential.
I have to go with Space Marines. They are flavored like the generic faction they are supposed to be, but statted slightly better than everyone else. This creates the annoying situation or grabbing our miniatures and going 'Is this as good as a tactical marine?' and the answer being at best an 'almost'.
Mary Sue factions always bug me but the Space Marines have it bad.
Every competitive Imperium list needs at least a Battalion of them.
They could easily rename Imperium to "Guard +".
I've heard rumors that Chapter Approved will bring more balance, to both GW and FW, which might be encouraging. However, if they install a "20%" allies rule, that would still allow for people to very easily include a ton of guard, and plasma, and tauroxes, because that gak is so cheap points wise.
Every competitive Imperium list needs at least a Battalion of them.
They could easily rename Imperium to "Guard +".
I've heard rumors that Chapter Approved will bring more balance, to both GW and FW, which might be encouraging. However, if they install a "20%" allies rule, that would still allow for people to very easily include a ton of guard, and plasma, and tauroxes, because that gak is so cheap points wise.
AnomanderRake wrote: Cyriss. A perfect fusion of bad writers, poor balance, awful visual design, and bad fanfiction smooshed together into a frustrating non-interactive ball of irritating goo.
But… why on earth would you want to interact with a ball of irritating goo
I'm very confused by everyone saying that Tau do not fit in the universe. The existence of the Eldar already proves that they have every right to be in 40k, yet somehow every tau hater seems to ignore that?
I'm not even a huge weeb and I have massive respect for the tau. (Aesthetically and fluff wise at least) The presence of Tau and Eldar gives a very nice contrast to the rest of the world and really gives it whole new dimensions and depth. The sleek, pretty, and smooth alien vehicles and troops of the tau and eldar give an amazing contrast to the crude, bulky, and brutal troops and vehicles of the orks, imperium, and chaos. Without them, the whole world of 40k would be much more flat and boring imo. Variety is the spice of life and all that.
Even if you don't personally enjoy them, you can at least respect them as an enemy to fight and slaughter
But... the Tau don't even fight in melee!
They only build big, strong robot suits so that they could carry more and bigger guns.
Grey Knights, mostly because the one GK player I know is a pain, and always gets salty when the lists he was sure were unbeatable because he read it on the internet lose because he doesn't know how to play them.
AnomanderRake wrote: Cyriss. A perfect fusion of bad writers, poor balance, awful visual design, and bad fanfiction smooshed together into a frustrating non-interactive ball of irritating goo.
But… why on earth would you want to interact with a ball of irritating goo
Exactly my point. I don't want to interact with a ball of irritating goo, but sometimes people want to play Cyriss, so...
Every competitive Imperium list needs at least a Battalion of them.
They could easily rename Imperium to "Guard +".
I've heard rumors that Chapter Approved will bring more balance, to both GW and FW, which might be encouraging. However, if they install a "20%" allies rule, that would still allow for people to very easily include a ton of guard, and plasma, and tauroxes, because that gak is so cheap points wise.
Found the one guy not complaining about Gulliman.
The basic problem with our Glorious Spiritual Liege, at least where Guard are involved, is that you could take him, or for a similar price (393pts v. 360) you could take Yarrick and two more Manticores.
Yarrick provides the same buffs to a Guard artillery base as Gulliman does.
Gulliman doesn't provide the firepower of two more Manticores.
Dear God I hope not. I love the ability to freely mix. I've always said from a fluff perspective it makes more sense for Imperial armies at least to be mixed, and playing Aeldari I don't see a huge advantage in freely mixing, since 90% of units are just slightly different flavors of the same thing, and the other 10% is balancing out bad points values, like how overpriced Reavers are compared to Skyweavers and Windrunners.
Dear God I hope not. I love the ability to freely mix. I've always said from a fluff perspective it makes more sense for Imperial armies at least to be mixed, and playing Aeldari I don't see a huge advantage in freely mixing, since 90% of units are just slightly different flavors of the same thing, and the other 10% is balancing out bad points values, like how overpriced Reavers are compared to Skyweavers and Windrunners.
Couldn't we just jack up the price of Conscripts?
most Imperial armies would not be particularly intermixed at the level of most 40k games in terms of fluff, and nothing about any of these armies is balanced with the idea of freely intermixing in mind, hence why the few Guard CC units tend to be particularly expensive and why SM's dont have inherent access to chaff units. The free intermixing of armies is what results in fluff abomination armies and the excesses of 7th and some of the worst offenders of 8th.
This is going to be more of a rant against the contemporary aesthetic direction (i.e. boring) of 40k in the last 20 years.
Tau - My least favourite faction for the reason others have cited. They're a completely extraneous faction in terms of their look, their fluff and the niche they fill on the tabletop. I appreciate they have many dedicated fans who might not otherwise enjoy the 40k setting...but that's kind of missing the point. It harms the integrity of a setting to try to cater to everyone.
CSM - These guys have looked terrible since 3rd ed. The 'Space Marines with spiky bits and horns' look is really uninspiring compared with the original conception of the Traitors Legionnaires. They have been in need of a makeover for a long time...something we will hopefully see in 8th.
Orks - Not that keen on the 'Mad Max Road Warrior' aesthetic direction these guys took from 3rd ed onwards. It was fine for Gorka Morka but I preferred the quirkier and more militaristic look of the 2nd ed Orks.
Nids - Another faction that has become really quite boring and generic. Yes we can laugh at the old Warrior and Carnifex models but they at least show some imagination. I want these guys to look terrifying and disgusting. Now they are just bland although I must admit that the more recent models are a big improvement.
I hate what they did to my Space Vikings. I loved Space Wolves back when they were defined by their Longfangs and scouts, not by their Wulfen crap.
Aesthetically, I hate Tau. They just never have fit the setting at all and always look out of place.
I've also never felt that Dark Eldar deserved a niche in the fluff. I like their models just fine, but just never liked their retconned background fluff.
AnomanderRake wrote: Cyriss. A perfect fusion of bad writers, poor balance, awful visual design, and bad fanfiction smooshed together into a frustrating non-interactive ball of irritating goo.
But… why on earth would you want to interact with a ball of irritating goo
Exactly my point. I don't want to interact with a ball of irritating goo, but sometimes people want to play Cyriss, so...
Then it's good that the ball is non-interactive ^^.
(Just kidding I get your point.)
I've also never felt that Dark Eldar deserved a niche in the fluff. I like their models just fine, but just never liked their retconned background fluff.
With the new keyword allowing combined Eldar/Dark Eldar, I think GW agreed
I'm very confused by everyone saying that Tau do not fit in the universe. The existence of the Eldar already proves that they have every right to be in 40k, yet somehow every tau hater seems to ignore that?
I'm not even a huge weeb and I have massive respect for the tau. (Aesthetically and fluff wise at least) The presence of Tau and Eldar gives a very nice contrast to the rest of the world and really gives it whole new dimensions and depth. The sleek, pretty, and smooth alien vehicles and troops of the tau and eldar give an amazing contrast to the crude, bulky, and brutal troops and vehicles of the orks, imperium, and chaos. Without them, the whole world of 40k would be much more flat and boring imo. Variety is the spice of life and all that.
I'm not really sure I understand your argument. In what way do Eldar validate the existence of Tau?
Eldar are central to the 40k setting. Their whole backstory is essentially a clever piece of "what if" Tolkein fan-fic written by Rick Priestley. What if Tolkein elves became a galaxy spanning empire and were subsequently consumed by their own hubris? Of all of the 'fantasy tropes in space' that defined early 40k they are the most developed in terms of how they integrate with the setting as a whole (although the idea of Orks as an engineered warrior race which took a life of its own when its masters disappeared is also pretty cool).
The Fall also plays a critical role in kickstarting the main 40k timeline. No Fall, no birth of Slaanesh, no Great Crusade, no ascendancy of mankind, no Horus Heresy etc.
Tau on the other hand are largely peripheral. Their justifying idea (which is that they might one day replace mankind as the galaxy's dominant civilization in the same way that mankind replaced the Eldar) isn't bad but I don't think it's enough.
If you simply mean that 'Eldar show you can have sleek and clean in the grimy 40k universe' I would stress that the Eldar and Tau aesthetics couldn't be more different. The Eldar aesthetic follows the naturalistic heritage of their elven trope. It's a high fantasy aesthetic transposed into a sci-fi universe (which is also in keeping with much of the Imperium's aesthetic). The Tau aesthetic is pure sci-fi.
If you simply mean that 'Eldar show you can have sleek and clean in the grimy 40k universe' I would stress that the Eldar and Tau aesthetics couldn't be more different. The Eldar aesthetic follows the naturalistic heritage of their elven trope. It's a high fantasy aesthetic transposed into a sci-fi universe (which is also in keeping with much of the Imperium's aesthetic). The Tau aesthetic is pure sci-fi.
Personally, I find the Tau aesthetic to be between the Eldar and the Imperium, but that's just me.
The Adeptus Mechanicus aka the Skitarii. While the lore behind them is good I can't stand the models. They just look silly to me. I've never actually met anyone who plays them and I don't see a lot of threads about them. I mean I've played against Sisters of Battle, Custodes, and I even know a guy who made a squat army that he runs as IG. But the Skitarii nothing nadda. I kinda feel like they're the forgotten army of 40k. Sorry to any of their fans but that's just how I feel about them..
Yes you know its going to be a lots of fun when you see the Demon Princes getting ready for deployment.
However must say that 7th edition toned the absurd crap down a bit. Have not looked at Chaos in 8th because I don't have to
know that they will have something that will be a joke gone to far.
Must I always felt sorry for Dark Elder players because just about everyone kicked their but.
Don't think Chaos have got anything like that right now... summoning was the only "absurd" thing I know of (at least compared to the absurdity that is generic space marine and IG), but that's completely different now.
I actually think Chaos seems to be one of the most balanced armies at the moment. Lot of viable options, nothing too overpowered (that I can think of offhand). Even their superstar "Chaos primarch + units" combos are far more balanced than the Girlyman/Celestine/Cawl/whatever combos that seem to get run regularly on here.
Which leads me to my (a strong word) "hated" faction - Imperium.
I like the Imperial Guard, they're nice and fluffy and have a lot of options. They manage to seem like a downtrodden underdog, even when they field a battallion of tanks, tanks and bigger tanks. I even like space marines in general, though more for their occasionally crazy fluff than anything else. And the offshoots like inquisitors and sisters and admech I like, they all have their own flavour and nice models that I thoroughly approve of for the most part.
What I "hate" is the Imperial Soup lists people come up with, that are totally unfluffy and just reek, REEK (it rhymes with meek) of being That Guy. I can't remember the worst offenders offhand, pretty sure it involves combining Girlyman and Celestine though, among other things.
There may have been some changes to the erratas/faqs that toned these units down, I don't recall anything since the flyers change, but it still left a bad taste.
. Mind-shackle Scarabs of 7th edition, Hunters from Hyperspace, the Decurion... They're not overly powerful or anything, and I love We'll Be Back (I will forever call it that), and I really like a lot of their aesthetics that they've built into over the years, but they always seem to come with some kind of rule that seems designed to be annoying as hell.
