This is pretty much the last nail in the coffin, ironically coming with the Codex which seems fitting I guess.
For those unaware thousand Sons currently has three unique units, rubric Marines Scarab occult terminators and exalted sorcerers. Everything else is either a unique unit which really doesn't count or is a generic unit from chaos Space Marines.
Now we're getting 3 new units with the Codex 2 are Gor units one HQ and one fast attack and we're getting a giant spawn. Don't get me wrong these things fill slots which need to be filled. The problem comes from the underlying concepts of these units.
Thousand Sons has always been an army that avoided mutations at all costs. Ahrimans Rubric was to prevent the mutations from occurring on the surviving thousand Sons members. Ahriman even kills one Marine when he mutates a bit and seems to enjoy it.
Tzzangors are mutated natives of the plant of Sorcerers in the Army now consists of almost half the units of mutated beings which would never find themselves in a thousand Sons Army.
Now with the changes to smite bringing any more than one or two rubric Marines or Scarab occult terminators will be almost useless, because you will be paying a premium to have access to an ability which you will almost never be able to use even if needed. This means that bringing rubric Marines or Scarab occult terminators will be almost useless compared too bringing the cheaper Tzzangors.
This means that the Thousand Sons Army which once consisted of almost entirely rubric units and sorcerers will now be made up of mostly Tzzangor units a couple of Rubric units and Sorcerers, basically taking the lore of the army trashing it and replacing it with something else.
Now I know what some of you are thinking, you're thinking well they had to do something and this is what they came up with. To give you and idea of what this would be like for another Army imagine that they announce that black Templars would be getting psykers added to their roster. It undermines the entire charcter of the army.
The Lore for 1K sons having a wide number of mutant SERVATORS under them is pretty eistablished if you look carefully. these are mutated space marines. these are mutant UNDERLINGS. they're useless chaff.
Okay, I think it needs to be said that tzanngors have been a thing for a long time in lore. Tsons have made usage of them for a long time. Tsons hating mutants (at least to the point they refuse to use them as in battle) isn't a thing post rubric, that slowly went away as they came to serve tzneetch more fully. This is all very well established fluff.
Secondly, coming from, DG, give it a try. We've got three "marine" units (PM and two types of terminator) and a handful of independent characters. Everything else is a vehicle, daemon engine, zombie or cultist. It's honestly not as bad as I thought, and it actually makes your marine units feel special. I ended up loving it despite having similar complaints originally.
I do think the biggest misstep will be if they leave the exalted sorcerers so interchangeable with both each other and normal sorcerers. Hopefully, they will add different lores and maybe even variants in the unit to allow them a bit more character.
BrianDavion wrote: The Lore for 1K sons having a wide number of mutant SERVATORS under them is pretty eistablished if you look carefully. these are mutated space marines. these are mutant UNDERLINGS. they're useless chaff.
True that. Problem isn't going to be chaff added which works fluffiwise. Problem is basic t-son units become overpriced for bigger games since 1-2 squads is about all you want to take before your units starts to cost more than they bring on table. So either they get very high discount for psychic ability(making them conversely too cheap for small games) or bigger games you take HQ, 1, maybe 2 tson units and rest non-tson units to avoid paying premium for psychic ability you don't benefit from.
tneva82 wrote: True that. Problem isn't going to be chaff added which works fluffiwise. Problem is basic t-son units become overpriced for bigger games since 1-2 squads is about all you want to take before your units starts to cost more than they bring on table. So either they get very high discount for psychic ability(making them conversely too cheap for small games) or bigger games you take HQ, 1, maybe 2 tson units and rest non-tson units.
Sorta, tsons already have lesser smite as opposed to normal which 1. May not even be effected by the beta rules, I've yet to see an official statement 2. Could end up being FAQ'd to ignore said rule if it ends up becoming official 3. Shouldn't be paying that much for the ability given that a peril can easily blow up half of your unit including the sorcerer, all for a measly single mortal would if it even goes off. I wouldn't be taking rubrics to smite spam personally. I wouldn't be taking rubrics in large numbers regardless. Just like every type of cam using demons, cultists, or a cultist variant is generally better for the bulk of your army. And the terminators similarly are likely to be 1-2 max due to price alone, with the smite being a very minor component of their price.
Thousand Sons has always been an army that avoided mutations at all costs. Ahrimans Rubric was to prevent the mutations from occurring on the surviving thousand Sons members. Ahriman even kills one Marine when he mutates a bit and seems to enjoy it.
Given this is early into the days, and that legions tend to both vary and change over several millenia.. I mean after-all, old Morty hated psykers and in the end he's both one and has one's under him.
Thousand Sons has always been an army that avoided mutations at all costs. Ahrimans Rubric was to prevent the mutations from occurring on the surviving thousand Sons members. Ahriman even kills one Marine when he mutates a bit and seems to enjoy it.
Given this is early into the days, and that legions tend to both vary and change over several millenia.. I mean after-all, old Morty hated psykers and in the end he's both one and has one's under him.
This. a lotta people think the traitor legions haven't changed at all since the Heresy. they VERY MUCH HAVE.
The death guard we can see has changed considerably. and they're noted to be one of the legions that has changed the LEAST
This is pretty much thr last nail im the coffin ironically come with the Codex which seems fitting I guess.
For those unaware thousand Sons currently has three unique units, rubric Marines Scarab occult terminators and exalted sorcerers. Everything else is either a unique unit which really doesn't count or is a generic unit from chaos Space Marines.
Now we're getting 3 new units with the Codex 2 are Gor units one HQ and one fast attack and we're getting a giant spawn. Don't get me wrong these things fill slots which need to be filled. The problem comes from the underlying concepts of these units.
Thousand Sons has always been an army that avoided mutations at all costs. Ahrimans Rubric was to prevent the mutations from occurring on the surviving thousand Sons members. Ahriman even kills one Marine when he mutates a bit and seems to enjoy it.
Tzzangors are mutated natives of the plant of Sorcerers in the Army now consists of almost half the units of mutated beings which would never find themselves in a thousand Sons Army.
Now with the changes to smite bringing any more than one or two rubric Marines or Scarab occult terminators will be totally useless, because you will be paying a premium to have access to an ability which you will almost never be able to use even if needed. This means that bringing rubric Marines or Scarab occult terminators will be almost useless compared too bringing the cheaper Tzzangors.
This means that the Thousand Sons Army which once consisted of almost entirely rubric units and sorcerers will now be made up of mostly Tzzangor units a couple of Rubric units and Sorcerers, basically taking the lore of the army trashing it and replacing it with something else.
Now I know what some of you are thinking, you're thinking well they had to do something and this is what they came up with. To give you and idea of what this would be like for another Army imagine that they announce that black Templars would be getting psykers added to their roster. It undermines the entire charcter of the army.
Sorry this is just straight up factually incorrect. Last time Thousand Sons had their own list Tzaangors, cultists/mutants, Chaos hounds, Thrall Wizards and Chaos beasts from the planet of sorcerers were a part of it.
Which makes sense when you think about it, TS was always a small legion and it can only recruit new sorcerers. So it's logical that they would use cultist/mutants/tzaangors for more menial tasks/support/bodyguards.
Wouldnt the actually Rubrics and Marines being rare be a fluff appropriate thing? Team Chaos doesnt have access to a million worlds to recruit from. Hordes of cultists and freaks with few marines is pretty fluff appropriate.
pismakron wrote: Has anyone here even read the new codex? If not, how can you conclude anything about smite, terminators and price premiums?
Well of course it's possible GW undercosted them while making codex resulting in later introduction of beta smite rules being perfect points but somehow odds of that happening is pretty small...
The codex was created with current smite rules. Unsurprisingly it's going to take a hit with the smite nerf.
Crazyterran wrote: Wouldnt the actually Rubrics and Marines being rare be a fluff appropriate thing? Team Chaos doesnt have access to a million worlds to recruit from. Hordes of cultists and freaks with few marines is pretty fluff appropriate.
You can make an army of Custodes. Heck you can make an army entirely out of Space Marines right now, and that's not very fluff accurate in most situations.
Good riddance! Now if we could still get some proper Tzeentch worshipping chaos marines that instead of snubbing their patron deity accept his lovely mutatous gifts!
But seriously, TS are automatons. They absolutely need to have some sort of living support cadre, so the Tzaangors make perfect sense. But if you don't like them, no one is forcing you to include them.
Oh, and people keep asking for Rubric Dreadnoughts. How would they ruleswise differ from regular Hellbrutes or Hellforged Dreadnoughts?
Personally, I’d like to see the remaining unique units from 30k being brought over into 40k for a bit of variety. Not too bothered about the Intercession Cabal, but, I’d love to see the Osirion Dreadnoughts and the Khenetai at least – maybe even access to the Castellax as well now that the Dark Mechanicus seems to be in the making.
Having the Khenetai wouldn’t be too much of a stretch either, as they’d essentially be exactly the same as the standard Rubrics, except with 2 force swords instead of a bolter.
Having these units, alongside an expanded Gor meatshield range would really help give the Sons a sense of uniqueness.
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Crimson wrote: Good riddance! Now if we could still get some proper Tzeentch worshipping chaos marines that instead of snubbing their patron deity accept his lovely mutatous gifts!
But seriously, TS are automatons. They absolutely need to have some sort of living support cadre, so the Tzaangors make perfect sense. But if you don't like them, no one is forcing you to include them.
Oh, and people keep asking for Rubric Dreadnoughts. How would they ruleswise differ from regular Hellbrutes or Hellforged Dreadnoughts?
Rubric dreadnoughts would be Osirion dreadnoughts instead. Essentially a libby dread.
Rubric dreadnoughts would be Osirion dreadnoughts instead. Essentially a libby dread.
Sorcerer dread would be that, and it would be nice if FW would bothered to make 40K rules for it, but a rubric dread would not be psychic, it would just be a dread which instead of a blob of flesh inside it has some dust inside it. I am not sure that needs to be represented in the rules, just use appropriate looking model and either hellbrute or some hellforged dread rules.
Sorcerer dread would be that, and it would be nice if FW would bothered to make 40K rules for it, but a rubric dread would not be psychic, it would just be a dread which instead of a blob of flesh inside it has some dust inside it. I am not sure that needs to be represented in the rules, just use appropriate looking model and either hellbrute or some hellforged dread rules.
You could make it so the psychic dread is more offensive-oriented and the a rubric dread be more defensive-oriented. Also a rubric ghost dread has potential to be a really nice model, which is what GW really cares about at the end of the day
Sorcerer dread would be that, and it would be nice if FW would bothered to make 40K rules for it, but a rubric dread would not be psychic, it would just be a dread which instead of a blob of flesh inside it has some dust inside it. I am not sure that needs to be represented in the rules, just use appropriate looking model and either hellbrute or some hellforged dread rules.
You could make it so the psychic dread is more offensive-oriented and the a rubric dread be more defensive-oriented. Also a rubric ghost dread has potential to be a really nice model, which is what GW really cares about at the end of the day
I wouldn't go for a Rubric dread at all. Between Osirion and Hellbrutes, they just aren't needed/different enough.
The closet thing you'd get to a "rubric" style dread, would be the 30k Thousand Sons Castellax versions - which are essentially automatons.
Wrong question really, the biggest problem with the current helbrute is the model looks wrong and unfluffy for thousand sons, not necessarily the rules.
That said, I'd expect if you did do a rubric dread for rules, it'd be slower than a Helbrute, have an invulnerable save and access to rubric Bolter and flamer weapons.
changemod wrote: Wrong question really, the biggest problem with the current helbrute is the model looks wrong and unfluffy for thousand sons, not necessarily the rules.
That said, I'd expect if you did do a rubric dread for rules, it'd be slower than a Helbrute, have an invulnerable save and access to rubric Bolter and flamer weapons.
And if GW makes tzeentch themed dreadnought it will get new rules to accompany it. What you describes sounds quite possible.
What about standard csms? I know its generally accepted all non-sorc TS are rubrics but what about those recruited after the heresy/rubric? Has it ever actually been stated that thousand sons cant recruit new marines? Ive never questioned it before but technically shouldn't they be able to recruit from the populations in the eye and worlds they invade or from clones like the other chaos legions?
changemod wrote: Wrong question really, the biggest problem with the current helbrute is the model looks wrong and unfluffy for thousand sons, not necessarily the rules.
Sure, you'd have to use some other model. Though it seems (and I had not realised this) that FW has stopped selling most of their non-contemptor dreads (seriously, when did this happen?) which limits options. Normal marine venerable dread with the imperial icons removed and TS head added would make a good TS dread though. FW also has nice TS contemptors, and rules for non-psyker variants are in FW's chaos index.
I understand where you are coming from, but the truth is this. You can still take an all Rubric army just like before.
Just because you have more options now doesn't mean that you are shoehorned into taking them.
And realistically, if you read any Chaos fluff, the new additions are very fluffy and shore up a few weaknesses in the Thousand Sons army.
There should always be more options, not less. It should be at the discretion of the player what kind of army they want to build.
I agree on smite though. It's a terrible, ham handed way of dealing with a poorly designed psychic phase system. If they made actually good core rules to begin with, we wouldn't be having this problem.
I am ok about Tzaangors as long as they let my skyfires be fielded in 40k.
And as far as I know - only Ahriman's cabal was pretty toxic about mutations, and rubric was the reason Magnus banned him from the planet of sorcerers.
How can you extrapolate Ahriman's vision of the legion on the rest of the 1K? Magnus is pretty much ok with daemons and mutations, AFAIR there is a whole cabal of 1k sorcerers devoted to this.
You play Arhiman? You paint your guys blue and avoid tzaangors.
You play Magnus or other sorcerer? Make TAC list with whatever you want. I don't remember the approach to paint schemes from the rest of 1k.
And you know for a fact that rubrics will still be over costed and generally useless in the new codex because of what special information from the codex you have received?
Also, do Ahriman and Magnus not count as Tsons specific units? They would seem to, as csm have no access to them, putting the thousand sons unit total at 5.
the_scotsman wrote: And you know for a fact that rubrics will still be over costed and generally useless in the new codex because of what special information from the codex you have received?
Also, do Ahriman and Magnus not count as Tsons specific units? They would seem to, as csm have no access to them, putting the thousand sons unit total at 5.
Only way they could not be overcosted would be either them losing access to smite all together(so they aren't paying for access to it) or they were going to be seriously UNDERCOSTED but saved by the smite nerf. They were priced with pre-nerf smite access. Since smite was nerfed either they are overcosted or they were going to be undercosted before smite nerf. And odds of them somehow undercosting just exactly smite nerf amount before smite nerf was made is pretty slim chance.
This is pretty much thr last nail im the coffin ironically come with the Codex which seems fitting I guess.
For those unaware thousand Sons currently has three unique units, rubric Marines Scarab occult terminators and exalted sorcerers. Everything else is either a unique unit which really doesn't count or is a generic unit from chaos Space Marines.
Now we're getting 3 new units with the Codex 2 are Gor units one HQ and one fast attack and we're getting a giant spawn. Don't get me wrong these things fill slots which need to be filled. The problem comes from the underlying concepts of these units.
Thousand Sons has always been an army that avoided mutations at all costs. Ahrimans Rubric was to prevent the mutations from occurring on the surviving thousand Sons members. Ahriman even kills one Marine when he mutates a bit and seems to enjoy it.
Tzzangors are mutated natives of the plant of Sorcerers in the Army now consists of almost half the units of mutated beings which would never find themselves in a thousand Sons Army.
Now with the changes to smite bringing any more than one or two rubric Marines or Scarab occult terminators will be totally useless, because you will be paying a premium to have access to an ability which you will almost never be able to use even if needed. This means that bringing rubric Marines or Scarab occult terminators will be almost useless compared too bringing the cheaper Tzzangors.
This means that the Thousand Sons Army which once consisted of almost entirely rubric units and sorcerers will now be made up of mostly Tzzangor units a couple of Rubric units and Sorcerers, basically taking the lore of the army trashing it and replacing it with something else.
Now I know what some of you are thinking, you're thinking well they had to do something and this is what they came up with. To give you and idea of what this would be like for another Army imagine that they announce that black Templars would be getting psykers added to their roster. It undermines the entire charcter of the army.
I think you (or maybe it's me) have a misunderstanding of the Thousand Sons lore.
I thought it basically went like this: Flaw in their gene seed that caused mutation, they tried to hide/keep it under control. This is where Ahriman's obsession with purity came from, even before the Heresy. Fast forward to the Heresy, Space Wolves get tricked, try and wipe out the Thousand Sons, they fall to Chaos. Ahriman against his primachs will/advice tries to "purify" the Thousand Sons because he starts watching them mutate and still has the hang up from when he was a loyalist. He messes the spell up and only the most powerful Thousand Sons are able to resist and not be turned into living suits of armor but even at this point the Thousand Sons were by no means united behind Ahriman. So I was always under the impression that if you used Ahriman the appropriately fluffy thing would be a bunch of Rubric marines since he's the one obsessed with purity and ended up making them but if you were using any other Thousand Son marine leader they would likely be all in for mutations, demons, whatever and if Magnus is rolling as your leader all bets are off cause the dude is a Deamon prince now.
So really the option to take mutants seem *more* fluffy to me, *unless* your army is led by Ahriman, in which case it should likely still be mostly Rubric marines with many a few "normal" Thousand Sons that were strong enough to resist the Rubric but are loyal to Ahriman instead of one of the ones that called him an idiot before and after his little spell.
ulgurstasta wrote: Last time Thousand Sons had their own list Tzaangors, cultists/mutants, Chaos hounds, Thrall Wizards and Chaos beasts from the planet of sorcerers were a part of it.
If we're playing that game, the army list in Realm of Chaos: The Lost and the Damned wasn't a Thousand Sons army list; it was a Renegades of Tzeentch army list, of which Thousand Sons Chaos Space Marines were only a single unit type (same goes for the Nurgle list). This is in contrast to the army lists for Black Legion, Emperor's Children and World Eaters in Slaves To Darkness.
ulgurstasta wrote: Last time Thousand Sons had their own list Tzaangors, cultists/mutants, Chaos hounds, Thrall Wizards and Chaos beasts from the planet of sorcerers were a part of it.
If we're playing that game, the army list in Realm of Chaos: The Lost and the Damned wasn't a Thousand Sons army list; it was a Renegades of Tzeentch army list, of which Thousand Sons Chaos Space Marines were only a single unit type (same goes for the Nurgle list). This is in contrast to the army lists for Black Legion, Emperor's Children and World Eaters in Slaves To Darkness.
Well if we are going down that route the fluff text specifically says that these units existed on the planet of sorcerers and that the TS made use of them, so the name of the actual list isn't that important in of itself.
The book is less Thousand Sons and more Warriors of Tzeentch now with the codex no doubt being split evenly between Gors, Sons, and Marines.
I think the reason the original unit was so well received and there's so much pushback with this news is because before the Tzaangors represented a small meatshield unit specifically introduced to solve the problem of numbers in a Thousand Sons list. Now it's looking like it will have the same problem we saw before where there are no Thousand Sons in a Thousand Sons army (ie. Magnus and 4 demon princes or Magnus + Demons).
There clearly wasn't enough to warrant a stand alone codex without the addition of the Tzaangors AoS units, but it was the lazy approach and leaves the codex feeling more like a money grab than an honest attempt to make a stylized Thousand Sons codex. A Thousand Sons army will likely have more models and points dedicated to Tzeentch than Thousand Sons moving forward.
The book is less Thousand Sons and more Warriors of Tzeentch now with the codex no doubt being split evenly between Gors, Sons, and Marines.
Out of curiosity do people just believe the Planet of Sorcerers to be compromised of just rubrics, sorcerers, Daemon Princes and Magnus? Thousand Sons lore tends to state pretty much that they have entire armies of slaves to deal with things as well and Tzaangors have been part of that for a long time.
Spoiler:
If us Slaanesh ever get an EC book I definitely don't expect our gibbering warbands to just be compromised of Noise marines and Noise X.
Granted I do think there's something to this. After all, we didn't get Plague variants for Chaos Lords or Sorcerers. You only get DR under certain conditions. Their Helbrutes don't have it for whatever reason. Then we don't get Plague versions of Bikers or Raptors (that's less fluffy so it could be understood), Havocs (which are most definitely a Death Guard thing), Veterans/Chosen, etc. There's inconsistency. Why are only certain Death Guard units DR and plaguey?
However, Chaos in general has always made use of slaves and daemons and machines. It makes sense to have things like Pox Walkers and Tzaangors. I don't know how many variants are needed, but they do make sense for fluff.
Oddly it's better to run alpha legion t sons then regular T sons. Scarab occult are pure trash, currently there is no reason to take them. It's best to use alpha legion, take 2 squads of rubric and either make them a 20 man squad, or give a 10 man all flamers, and go for the alpha strike with alpha legion strat to deep strike them 9 inches away, move up 5, then flame on with 10 flamers turn one.
There really is no point to running T sons, and if the need to smite goes through, the only thing that would make them useful is if they got full blown smite, and scarrub occult got access to other powers, else they are just crap.
Oh did someone leak the codex already? Or is this wildly speculative knee-jerking that attempts to make a definitive statement based on limited information?
OH WAIT I'M ON DAKKA DAKKA OF COURSE IT'S THE SECOND ONE!
The Death Guard Codex is the way to expand an army like this. Proper Death Guard units? They are only 3. Plague Marines, Terminators and Deathsrouds. You have then a bunch of elite-characters, you can do that with TS.
But the rest? Zombies, Daemon Engines, etc...
Chaos Marines, by their own nature, haven't never been a pure Space Marine army like Loyalist are. Heck, normally Chaos Space Marines where always a small part of the army! (We can say here that it was because of rules, but even in the fluff, Chaos Space Marines are normally a small number, and they rely on cultists, daemon engines, daemons, etc... to support them)
The problem here is not that they are adding more Tzaangors units. Is just that theres not many Space Marine units of the TS. That can be easely fixed, and probably it will be in the future. But I don't understand all of this.
Death Guard vs Thousand Sons
Poxwalkers - Tzaangors
Bligthdrone - Skyfires
Myphitic Blightauler - Tzaangor Shaman
The plague mortar - Vortex Beast.
They have the same number of "Non marine" Units in their army, if you don't count the generic CSM units that are port over.
The book is less Thousand Sons and more Warriors of Tzeentch now with the codex no doubt being split evenly between Gors, Sons, and Marines.
Out of curiosity do people just believe the Planet of Sorcerers to be compromised of just rubrics, sorcerers, Daemon Princes and Magnus? Thousand Sons lore tends to state pretty much that they have entire armies of slaves to deal with things as well and Tzaangors have been part of that for a long time.
Spoiler:
If us Slaanesh ever get an EC book I definitely don't expect our gibbering warbands to just be compromised of Noise marines and Noise X.
But that's kind of the point... it's a Thousand Sons codex, not a Planet of Sorcerers or Warriors of Tzeentch book.
The addition of Cultists and Zombies for Deathguard makes sense as they are nothing but fodder. That's why Tzaangors were warmly received. They were a close correlation to Tzeentch's version of zombies. But is the Deathguard codex made up of 1/3 zombie units?
Ultimately it's going to come down to what they do with the book. If they could find a way to reduce the cost of Rubrics and Scarabs so they would form the backbone of the army and find a way to make Exalted Sorcerers fill a non-HQ role, then that would at least fill more of the org chart out with Thousand Sons units.
For example...
Rubrics and Scarabs are pretty overpriced when you consider their limited flexibility. Really what pushes their price up is they're being lead by sorcerers. If they removed the sorcerer leaders from both units and perhaps gave them a -1 to hit penalty if not within 12" of a sorcerer would that justify their price point to be closely priced to stock marines and terminators? If not maybe even a point cheaper?
They could then make sorcerer covens with the Exalted Sorcerer kit. We could make an exalted sorcerer coven that are just like elder warlocks and could be broken out to lead the rubric and scarab units and in doing so would remove the -1 to hit penalty.
They could make Cult Coven units also using the exalted sorcerer kit. These would be small 'brotherhood of psyker' units of 3 to 5 sorcerers that would get a unique spell they could use depending on the cult they belonged to. Could be 1 such unit in Elite, FA, and HQ.
So there are tons of ways they could make Thousand Sons unique with the stuff they have without just loading the book with goats which would be quite lazy on their part. We'll see what they do though.
I wouldn't mind for a Rubric Styled Dreadnought type, and a Sorcerer Equivalent as well.
Knowing Thousand Sons the Sorcerer Dreadnoughts would be using some strange magicks to empower the Sorcerer within or some sort of oddball crystalline sort of golem to empower themselves.
Essentially, the Death Guard level of kits was surprisingly huge especially compared to the previous Tsons level. I just hope for more.. As I always do.
it's a Thousand Sons codex, not a Planet of Sorcerers or Warriors of Tzeentch book.
If the Thousand Sons use a ton of auxiliaries, then it's still a Thousand Sons codex.
Chaos Marines, by their own nature, haven't never been a pure Space Marine army like Loyalist are. Heck, normally Chaos Space Marines where always a small part of the army! (We can say here that it was because of rules, but even in the fluff, Chaos Space Marines are normally a small number, and they rely on cultists, daemon engines, daemons, etc... to support them)
Albeit is tempting for CSM to desire all the tools loyalist have, this would end in armies playing the same , just one has spikes.
I disagree with the fact that CSM must be a minority.
I think the new Death Guard is in a decent spot, compared to the 3.5 codex there is most of the stuff, just the havocs are missing (I would have loved a 4 specials unit), and there are more engines and cultists. Daemons are with only a foot in, that is annoying.
Arguably, even if Plague Marines are just 1 unit, their sheer customizability make them count for 5. A unit with a different combination or mix of specials and melee weapons will play in a dramatically different way.
Yeah, Plague Marines count as Tacticals marines, Assault Marines and Devastator marines. And even as Sternguard and Vanguard Veterans if you go small numbers with a ton of special weapons They are probably the most customizable unit in the game.
And I wasn't saying that CSM should be a minority in their own army. I was saying that they need to have a different feel than loyalist. And part of that feel is using cultists, chaff, mutated units, and weird daemonic-machine monsters.
For "un-chaosy" chaos, one can play HH. Or a loyalist army with a heretic paintjob.
Everyone seems to be glossing over the fact that there will also likely be daemons in the book as well. I for one am stoaked to see daemon and t sons synergy. I mean if you read the 30k books they pretty much all had daemon families called tootlaries(spelling?) So it would be nice to see rubric and horrors synergize
Thousand Sons has always been an army that avoided mutations at all costs. Ahrimans Rubric was to prevent the mutations from occurring on the surviving thousand Sons members. Ahriman even kills one Marine when he mutates a bit and seems to enjoy it.
Given this is early into the days, and that legions tend to both vary and change over several millenia.. I mean after-all, old Morty hated psykers and in the end he's both one and has one's under him.
This. a lotta people think the traitor legions haven't changed at all since the Heresy. they VERY MUCH HAVE.
The death guard we can see has changed considerably. and they're noted to be one of the legions that has changed the LEAST
Just wanted to echo this point, Recruiting marines is hard for the traitor legions, the warp contaminates the geneseed as often as not, and it takes expertise like that of Fabius Bile to successfully make batches of marines. There are some exceptions of course, nurgle blesses his champions with abundance, so deathguard recruit fairly well, which is probably why they are the least changed legion. Supplementing the traitor legions forces with demons and cultist is one of the things that have kept the long war going, that and a trickle of defections from loyalist marines (which are probably a legion or twos worth of marines after 10,000 years). Abaddon's open door policy for recruitment is probably a nod to this reality, which is why the black legion is arguably the strongest of the traitor legions.
I play 1ksons myself, and kind of went off them in favour of my Imperials. That was nothing to do with Tzaangors, however. I love those little suckers, and I'm really excited to see them get some supprt/elit/hq options. Hopefully the buffs they give will be significant, so that a herd of 20 Tzaangor blades will pose a serious threat.
Really, it was because Thousand Sons, as they stand, are really really two-dimensional - that's their problem. Fingers crossed that the Codex fixes this a little bit. So I guess I'm on the other side of the fence - I'm very excited to see what GW cook up.
Nvs wrote: The addition of Cultists and Zombies for Deathguard makes sense as they are nothing but fodder. That's why Tzaangors were warmly received. They were a close correlation to Tzeentch's version of zombies. But is the Deathguard codex made up of 1/3 zombie units?
If we ignore the independent characters, most of our army is daemon engines. More daemon engines than we have marine variants.
DG set a precedent for actual marines being a relatively small portion of the army. Which annoyed me initially as a DG player, but it honestly works. Give it a chance.
As I said in the other thread there is no real reason thousand sons could not have a lot ore units of rubrics, they could even expand the psychic powers to 18, one tzeench, one biomancy, one divination.
Why are there not rubric praetors, or any of the command units, the armour with all the kit would still be there, why no ancient equivalent etc.
Where are the rubric havocs and special weapon squads ?
Gw lacks imagination and the "no model, no rules" crap for the last few years is really killing the kitbash ability to make these extra units.
If you don't like Tzaangors don't use them. It's as easy as that. My DG force is comprised of Marines mostly with poxwalkers numbering not more than one unit that I haven't used yet.
I'm playing Nurgle-Daemons, so I have to buy a codex of which I don't want to use 75%.
Galas wrote: Yeah, Plague Marines count as Tacticals marines, Assault Marines and Devastator marines. And even as Sternguard and Vanguard Veterans if you go small numbers with a ton of special weapons They are probably the most customizable unit in the game. And I wasn't saying that CSM should be a minority in their own army. I was saying that they need to have a different feel than loyalist. And part of that feel is using cultists, chaff, mutated units, and weird daemonic-machine monsters.
For "un-chaosy" chaos, one can play HH. Or a loyalist army with a heretic paintjob.
They have mobility issues compared to some of the loyalists, but that was a thing for chaos since 3rd in the very least. In 3rd I loved how the assault marines of chaos were the bikes and raptors had a different role. The game was built in a way that you could feel the difference with few rules added. Same with range but DG in 3.5 was a close range engagement army. They had true grit like the Wolves, before the wolves themselves became a full furry parody.
I ask again, if one does not want mutants and tzaangors, can have TS dreads like deredeo and leviathan? Or hellforged preds?
Kaiyanwang wrote: I ask again, if one does not want mutants and tzaangors, can have TS dreads like deredeo and leviathan? Or hellforged preds?
I'm reasonable certain those are all in the tson list. Unless you mean you want special tson versions in which case no, they get the unique global tson rules but otherwise act as normal due to the model = rules thing, and giving tson unique dreadnought models is very different than just letting them have some lore friendly units that are already in AoS.
Kaiyanwang wrote: I ask again, if one does not want mutants and tzaangors, can have TS dreads like deredeo and leviathan? Or hellforged preds?
I'm reasonable certain those are all in the tson list. Unless you mean you want special tson versions in which case no, they get the unique global tson rules but otherwise act as normal due to the model = rules thing, and giving tson unique dreadnought models is very different than just letting them have some lore friendly units that are already in AoS.
I meant general rules. Not necessarily synergizing 100% but maybe they are good enough to support the army.
Aren't you the same guy that railed for weeks about 'GW's loyalist marine favoritism' by comparing rubrics against Inceptors; only for us to learn that inceptors were something like double the points we thought they were and actually one of the worst units in the game?
It's pretty impossible to take anything you say seriously tbh.
Me or him? Because I was part of that as well. It is because the starter box was really out of whack and stuff changed, but mainly because the relationship between point value and power level was really unclear, and at times we were literally being lied to about how upgrades factored into power level.
ERJAK wrote: Aren't you the same guy that railed for weeks about 'GW's loyalist marine favoritism' by comparing rubrics against Inceptors; only for us to learn that inceptors were something like double the points we thought they were and actually one of the worst units in the game?
It's pretty impossible to take anything you say seriously tbh.
1) I don't think is me
2) Link post(s) when you make these statements.
Backspacehacker wrote: Oddly it's better to run alpha legion t sons then regular T sons. Scarab occult are pure trash, currently there is no reason to take them. It's best to use alpha legion, take 2 squads of rubric and either make them a 20 man squad, or give a 10 man all flamers, and go for the alpha strike with alpha legion strat to deep strike them 9 inches away, move up 5, then flame on with 10 flamers turn one.
There really is no point to running T sons, and if the need to smite goes through, the only thing that would make them useful is if they got full blown smite, and scarrub occult got access to other powers, else they are just crap.
If you say so. I think you might be confusing armies with no stratagems with those with tons of them. Maybe just maybe the new book will have new stratagems and spells.
For now mine Rubrics do just fine with rerolls from Abby and +1 to wound.
OP doesn't seem to get TS lore by assuming nothing changed between 30k and 40k.
Also feel free to you know... not buy the models you don't like? You say the army should be just sorcs and rubrics but decry the lack of unit choices. Sounds like a whinge for the sake of whinging.
Personally I think there should be more than the simple choice of Scarab Occult Terminators and Rubric Marines Rubric Marines or marines in general for the Thousand Sons. I mean did the Thousands sons just drop all of their weapons for bolters, soul reaper cannons, and warp flamers after the Rubric of Ahriman was cast?. I know that Magnus was no strategic genius, but he's still smart supposedly. It just seems silly to give all that up. At the very least give us some Khentai variant and possibly a untit bearing some heavy weapons. Who knows maybe they will, but I doubt it.
andrewm9 wrote: Personally I think there should be more than the simple choice of Scarab Occult Terminators and Rubric Marines Rubric Marines or marines in general for the Thousand Sons. I mean did the Thousands sons just drop all of their weapons for bolters, soul reaper cannons, and warp flamers after the Rubric of Ahriman was cast?. I know that Magnus was no strategic genius, but he's still smart supposedly. It just seems silly to give all that up. At the very least give us some Khentai variant and possibly a untit bearing some heavy weapons. Who knows maybe they will, but I doubt it.
They were already using those weapons when they got changed.
Soul reaper already existed, it was the name the time sons gave to the assult Cannon because they did not like the original name of the weapon , assault Cannon. This is explained in the book "thousand some"
Warp bolters are explained because they started ensceibing their rounds with runes to make them more deadly, and the warflamers are just warp juiced up flamers. The t sons where never known for using heavy weapons, even in the books, they always used their psyker powers to sub In for the lack of heavy weapons. I mean they still have vehicles yeah, but most of their ground forces utilized the warp.
andrewm9 wrote: Personally I think there should be more than the simple choice of Scarab Occult Terminators and Rubric Marines Rubric Marines or marines in general for the Thousand Sons. I mean did the Thousands sons just drop all of their weapons for bolters, soul reaper cannons, and warp flamers after the Rubric of Ahriman was cast?. I know that Magnus was no strategic genius, but he's still smart supposedly. It just seems silly to give all that up. At the very least give us some Khentai variant and possibly a untit bearing some heavy weapons. Who knows maybe they will, but I doubt it.
They were already using those weapons when they got changed.
Soul reaper already existed, it was the name the time sons gave to the assult Cannon because they did not like the original name of the weapon , assault Cannon. This is explained in the book "thousand some"
Warp bolters are explained because they started ensceibing their rounds with runes to make them more deadly, and the warflamers are just warp juiced up flamers. The t sons where never known for using heavy weapons, even in the books, they always used their psyker powers to sub In for the lack of heavy weapons. I mean they still have vehicles yeah, but most of their ground forces utilized the warp.
They may have preferred psychic attack, but even for the thousand sons there probably were not enough psychics for all things. Beside only Magnus was really capable of taking things like Titans with his psychic might. Its kind of like saying the Raven Guard never used heavy weapons or vehicles because they preferred stealth warfare and guerilla tactics. They did just not to the exclusion of all else. That is all I am saying.
andrewm9 wrote: Personally I think there should be more than the simple choice of Scarab Occult Terminators and Rubric Marines Rubric Marines or marines in general for the Thousand Sons. I mean did the Thousands sons just drop all of their weapons for bolters, soul reaper cannons, and warp flamers after the Rubric of Ahriman was cast?. I know that Magnus was no strategic genius, but he's still smart supposedly. It just seems silly to give all that up. At the very least give us some Khentai variant and possibly a untit bearing some heavy weapons. Who knows maybe they will, but I doubt it.
They were already using those weapons when they got changed.
Soul reaper already existed, it was the name the time sons gave to the assult Cannon because they did not like the original name of the weapon , assault Cannon. This is explained in the book "thousand some"
Warp bolters are explained because they started ensceibing their rounds with runes to make them more deadly, and the warflamers are just warp juiced up flamers. The t sons where never known for using heavy weapons, even in the books, they always used their psyker powers to sub In for the lack of heavy weapons. I mean they still have vehicles yeah, but most of their ground forces utilized the warp.
See we KNOW this isnt true even in the slightest, we KNOW exactly what they used, its in the legions crusade army list, there are limits of course on some things but they have access to the entire legion list pretty much.
So its not a case of OP not knowing the TS fluff, its GW not knowing its own fluff as usual, there is zero, zilch reason why TS could not band together there heavy weapons into Havoc squads, there specials into special weapon squads.
When the Rubric hit every non psyker TS was turned into Rubricai, thats command staff, assault marines, terminators, breachers, everything that was left, so why isnt it represented in the TT, simple, no model, no rules, lack of imagination of GW writers behalf and likely there lack of knowledge on the fluff, its sad but its easy to come up with different kinds of Rubric marines, GW just needs to give us the rules so we can do it on the TT.
This is the same issue with Death Guard, the stuff ported from codex chaos marines doesnt get the +1 T or FNP...... for reasons, its stupid and breaks immersion for me with that army.
Have a Thousand Sons force here, though its all Heresy Era stuff as I prefer the colours and just never really liked the newer models.
As for the army being dead.. I thought that was sort of the point?
Don't mind the AoS models being brought in, its essentially 'free' for GW to do it so why not? no one says anyone has to use them, just use cultists and be done with it.
Can take various other vehicles and run them in Thousand Sons colours.
what would be nice though, since they are meant to be a relic of a long gone force, is to be able to use some of the 30k organisation - the tactical support squads etc
When the Rubric hit every non psyker TS was turned into Rubricai, thats command staff, assault marines, terminators, breachers, everything that was left, so why isnt it represented in the TT, simple, no model, no rules, lack of imagination of GW writers behalf and likely there lack of knowledge on the fluff, its sad but its easy to come up with different kinds of Rubric marines, GW just needs to give us the rules so we can do it on the TT.
There are Rubric terminators. As for a lot of that other stuff, the Rubrics are probably too stupid to do any complex things without constant sorcerer supervision. Rubric command staff is right out.
Actually scarab occult should not have been rubriced, GW goofed on their own lore with that one. The command staff IE the occult sects of the thousand son's would not have been effected by the rubric.
When the Rubric hit every non psyker TS was turned into Rubricai, thats command staff, assault marines, terminators, breachers, everything that was left, so why isnt it represented in the TT, simple, no model, no rules, lack of imagination of GW writers behalf and likely there lack of knowledge on the fluff, its sad but its easy to come up with different kinds of Rubric marines, GW just needs to give us the rules so we can do it on the TT.
There are Rubric terminators. As for a lot of that other stuff, the Rubrics are probably too stupid to do any complex things without constant sorcerer supervision. Rubric command staff is right out.
nope not true, as elites they work, as HQ I agree nope, take an old praetor, he is now a rubric, so has a selection of weapons it could have, give it lower stats to represent its loss of "self", bam you have a rubric elite choice that is both fluffy and has a purpose (maybe an aura that -1 to LD or somthing), another is a legion herald, simply and Rubric with a Banner, next we can have a new character, a TS soul smith, someone has to repair the armour and either bring back rubricai or make new ones, GW makes up stuff like this all the time, it can be there apothecary equivalent, that 3 new elite choices.
Next we get Rubric, Rubric Hellfire squads (special weapon sqauds), Rubric Breachers (+1 AS for shield)
Heavy we get Rubric Havocs
so with very very little effort I have come up with easily convertible units, that 6 extra units that GW would not have to make a kit for.....
Also it's been confirmed that rubric are not "mindless suits of armor" they are just really emo, they have full thought and reasoning, they are just salty over the whole being stuck inside your armor. I mean imagine never feeling or experiencing all the human sensation you feel for over 5k years and see how happy you would be.
Backspacehacker wrote: The command staff IE the occult sects of the thousand son's would not have been effected by the rubric.
Right. But that's the sorcerers. You have sorcerers.
I'm confused as to what you are trying to say.
I'm trying to stay that none of the scarab occult should have been rubriced and the fact that they are is a lore slip up on GWs part. All the sorcerer in the rubic marines should still be flesh, and ALL of the scarab occult should be human still. Every member of the occult sects we're powerful psyker users not just the squad leaders.
nope not true, as elites they work, as HQ I agree nope, take an old praetor, he is now a rubric, so has a selection of weapons it could have, give it lower stats to represent its loss of "self", bam you have a rubric elite choice that is both fluffy and has a purpose (maybe an aura that -1 to LD or somthing), another is a legion herald, simply and Rubric with a Banner, next we can have a new character, a TS soul smith, someone has to repair the armour and either bring back rubricai or make new ones, GW makes up stuff like this all the time, it can be there apothecary equivalent, that 3 new elite choices.
Next we get Rubric, Rubric Hellfire squads (special weapon sqauds), Rubric Breachers (+1 AS for shield)
Heavy we get Rubric Havocs
so with very very little effort I have come up with easily convertible units, that 6 extra units that GW would not have to make a kit for.....
I really don't see Rubrics much caring about a banner. But yeah, a lot of the stuff you mentioned could work. I think it would probably best be handled by FW releasing conversion kits to go with plastic Rubrics and then provide rules for them.
Backspacehacker wrote: Also it's been confirmed that rubric are not "mindless suits of armor" they are just really emo, they have full thought and reasoning, they are just salty over the whole being stuck inside your armor. I mean imagine never feeling or experiencing all the human sensation you feel for over 5k years and see how happy you would be.
Backspacehacker wrote: The command staff IE the occult sects of the thousand son's would not have been effected by the rubric.
Right. But that's the sorcerers. You have sorcerers.
I'm confused as to what you are trying to say.
I'm trying to stay that none of the scarab occult should have been rubriced and the fact that they are is a lore slip up on GWs part. All the sorcerer in the rubic marines should still be flesh, and ALL of the scarab occult should be human still. Every member of the occult sects we're powerful psyker users not just the squad leaders.
Let me start by saying I agree that Thousand Sons deserve more(if we are accepting that the game needs 2000 different power armor armies of course). I am really unhappy about no Thousand Son dreadnought, as they could have had a lot of fun with that or at a minimum a psyche dread. Maybe one day the Thousand Sons can learn from the Blood Angels.
With that said, Games Workshop hand waved Rubric Scarab Occult in the last book. It's in an obscure blurb in the section showing different paint schemes for thousand sons. Apparently there were a bunch of them trying to protect Magnus from himself and/or tzeentch or something(too lazy to get up and find my book), and he got angry and mind smoked them into rubric type things.
Backspacehacker wrote: Also it's been confirmed that rubric are not "mindless suits of armor" they are just really emo, they have full thought and reasoning, they are just salty over the whole being stuck inside your armor. I mean imagine never feeling or experiencing all the human sensation you feel for over 5k years and see how happy you would be.
Backspacehacker wrote: The command staff IE the occult sects of the thousand son's would not have been effected by the rubric.
Right. But that's the sorcerers. You have sorcerers.
I'm confused as to what you are trying to say.
I'm trying to stay that none of the scarab occult should have been rubriced and the fact that they are is a lore slip up on GWs part. All the sorcerer in the rubic marines should still be flesh, and ALL of the scarab occult should be human still. Every member of the occult sects we're powerful psyker users not just the squad leaders.
Where has that been confirmed? every book I've read to date has suggested they have MOSTLY lost themselves, although traces remain
It's logic of how and why the rubric was done.
All members of the occult sects we're powerful psykers, that's the whole reason they got into the occult sects. Because they we're powerful psykers they were at risk to the flesh change, I mutations. The rubric was cast so that the psykers of the 1000 sons did not suffer from said mutation, and it worked, but all non psykers/not powerful one's, were rubriced.
Because of that the sorcerer in rubric squads should still be human, and every member of the occult should also still be human because they were all powerful psykers. GW did see hand wavium that ignored that little fact. Same thing with the exaulted sorcerers that have mutations, that is lore breaking but it was only after that GW did more and wavium and said they accepted those mutations, which again, when you know anything about the T sons you know they are absolutely terrorfied of mutations which is the whole reason they did the rubric in the first place.
Now I agree I wish we got psyker dreads or even rubric dreads for that matter. I would also love to see other occult sects besides just the scarab occult.
Crimson Devil wrote: So wouldn't that mean the Occult Sects are now represented by Sorcerers? You would think after 10 thousand years you would get a promotion.
About Tsons not having bodies and are all about not having mutations. I read the book Ahriman Unchained, which I would consider modern times in 40k.
Spoiler:
The whole book is the process by which Ahriman is trying to reverse the rubric he cast long ago. By the end he manages to reverse the effect on a single Thousand Son. If it's possible for one, it's possible for more. I mean GW has stretched logic worse than this.
With this in mind, it would conceivable for them to be more open to mutations, or allowing mutated beings to serve them.
Formosa wrote: so why isnt it represented in the TT, simple, no model, no rules, lack of imagination of GW writers behalf and likely there lack of knowledge on the fluff, its sad but its easy to come up with different kinds of Rubric marines, GW just needs to give us the rules so we can do it on the TT.
You think they have a lack of imagination putting different weapons on Rubrics? Funny.
I want to play Thousand Sons - the legion that had a calamitous tumble into the hands of Tzeentch. Not Ultramarines with an extra rule on the marines.
Formosa wrote: so why isnt it represented in the TT, simple, no model, no rules, lack of imagination of GW writers behalf and likely there lack of knowledge on the fluff, its sad but its easy to come up with different kinds of Rubric marines, GW just needs to give us the rules so we can do it on the TT.
You think they have a lack of imagination putting different weapons on Rubrics? Funny.
I want to play Thousand Sons - the legion that had a calamitous tumble into the hands of Tzeentch. Not Ultramarines with an extra rule on the marines.
Before you do let me do you a favor, prime in retributor gold, and put on some music while you fill in all the blue because woof, it is rough to paint them.
Crimson Devil wrote: So wouldn't that mean the Occult Sects are now represented by Sorcerers? You would think after 10 thousand years you would get a promotion.
I mean yes? They have always been sorcerers so.
What I'm getting at; is the Sects wouldn't operate the same way anymore, it they still exist, after 10k years. Who would want to be a terminator sgt when you are a bad ass superhuman Sorcerer that can be a super villain. The Chaos Legions continuing to act the same way as they did under the Emperor makes no sense to me. The Thousand Sons when gathered in force would be more like the Legion Of Doom than a military organization.
What I'm getting at; is the Sects wouldn't operate the same way anymore, it they still exist, after 10k years. Who would want to be a terminator sgt when you are a bad ass superhuman Sorcerer that can be a super villain. The Chaos Legions continuing to act the same way as they did under the Emperor makes no sense to me. The Thousand Sons when gathered in force would be more like the Legion Of Doom than a military organization.
Yep. The original surviving sorcerers are your HQs now.
What I'm getting at; is the Sects wouldn't operate the same way anymore, it they still exist, after 10k years. Who would want to be a terminator sgt when you are a bad ass superhuman Sorcerer that can be a super villain. The Chaos Legions continuing to act the same way as they did under the Emperor makes no sense to me. The Thousand Sons when gathered in force would be more like the Legion Of Doom than a military organization.
Yep. The original surviving sorcerers are your HQs now.
Surviving as in old age? Because ALL of the occult would have survives the rubric and been left human.
Formosa wrote: so why isnt it represented in the TT, simple, no model, no rules, lack of imagination of GW writers behalf and likely there lack of knowledge on the fluff, its sad but its easy to come up with different kinds of Rubric marines, GW just needs to give us the rules so we can do it on the TT.
You think they have a lack of imagination putting different weapons on Rubrics? Funny.
I want to play Thousand Sons - the legion that had a calamitous tumble into the hands of Tzeentch. Not Ultramarines with an extra rule on the marines.
Absolutely I do, it's somthing that should already be in the codex and then they can leap from there, as it stands they are bland on top of bland, like the other chaos legions there is so much they could explore and expand upon but they haven't even got the basics down, so yes, it lacks imagination and is a clear disconnect between the fluff and the TT, and not even in the "abstract" way that rules/fluff usually has with marines, it is quite frankly stupid that normal marines look more like fluff chaos legions than actual chaos legions donthese days.
I mean, look at it this way, where are the flesh changed thousand sons? Did they all die? Did the rubric reduce them to dust? If not why is there no flesh changed unit option? All the thousand sons that used legion heavy weapons, where are they now? Why are there no options for rubric havocs? Are lords and sorcerers so stupid and forgetful that they don't know how to tell a few of the rubrics with these weapons to band together for fire support ?
What we will likely get is a havoc squad of thousand sons, not rubrics, with heavy weapons and it's dim, if the design team hasn't thought of it, why not?
I want the basics of what should already be there, not a bare bones army list, rubrics should fulfill every role they are supposed to according to the fluff, this means elite chosen rubrics, troop choice rubrics and special weapon squads, and heavy weapon squads, I can understand why there would not be bike squads though.
As for tzaangors, I like them, I like the addition, but that should not detract from the thousand sons complete lack of the basic units they should have.
I want the basics of what should already be there, not a bare bones army list, rubrics should fulfill every role they are supposed to according to the fluff, this means elite chosen rubrics, troop choice rubrics and special weapon squads, and heavy weapon squads, I can understand why there would not be bike squads though.
As for tzaangors, I like them, I like the addition, but that should not detract from the thousand sons complete lack of the basic units they should have.
I don't understand how that is any more imaginative though. It's basically a weapon sprue add-on and some bulkier backpacks...that's it. GW would have done that if they wanted to.
Arachnofiend wrote: I like how people's idea of imaginative is "Rubrics, but in a different force org slot!"
As much flak GW gets for releasing "redundant" units at least I have to say normally their ideas for units are much more interesting, like the DG daemonic engines ones.
I never said it was imaginative myself, but I’d like options other than smite spam or chaos predators to deal with heavy tanks or knights or huge monsters becuase many codexes have lots of new weapns that do more then 1 wound which means I won’t stan up to them for very long with my super elite army. And yes I am one of those who doesn’t like tzaangors and no I haven’t been using them.
Arachnofiend wrote: I like how people's idea of imaginative is "Rubrics, but in a different force org slot!"
Covering the fundamental bases doesn't really need to aim for creativity: Thousand sons are a few units short of that... And if you get out of the mindset of thousand sons being an elite choose for chaos marines, frankly they lack the tactical options any marine legion should have.
Frankly if drawing a comparison to death guard, even they kinda lack a "Devastator" variant on plague marines, though they do have assault covered via the close combat options the basic troop unit can swap their Bolters for.
My point is, don't let innovation so heavily outweigh the basics you never get the basics done.
Sgt. Cortez wrote: If you don't like Tzaangors don't use them. It's as easy as that. My DG force is comprised of Marines mostly with poxwalkers numbering not more than one unit that I haven't used yet.
I'm playing Nurgle-Daemons, so I have to buy a codex of which I don't want to use 75%.
Of course you aren't paying for smite ability that becomes less and less usefull approaching 0 the more DG units you take.
I kind of feel the same way about the Poxwalkerification of the Death Guard. They were a Traitor Legion, heavily marine based, and IMHO, they created this unit in between a cultist and a demon to fill out the starter sets, and preserve the "Chaos is always weaker than the Imperium" deal. By making them fairly strong, they sold extra starter kits, and lists are filled with them. Many DG lists don't even play Plague Marines which to me just makes.absolutely no sense. Imagine playing Space Wolves with nothing but Scouts!
Arachnofiend wrote: I like how people's idea of imaginative is "Rubrics, but in a different force org slot!"
Covering the fundamental bases doesn't really need to aim for creativity: Thousand sons are a few units short of that... And if you get out of the mindset of thousand sons being an elite choose for chaos marines, frankly they lack the tactical options any marine legion should have.
Frankly if drawing a comparison to death guard, even they kinda lack a "Devastator" variant on plague marines, though they do have assault covered via the close combat options the basic troop unit can swap their Bolters for.
My point is, don't let innovation so heavily outweigh the basics you never get the basics done.
I would have liked to see an infantry based anti-tank option, for sure; I think it's the only fundamental we're missing with the new AoS units. We needed a more inexpensive psyker and got the Tzaangor Shaman, we needed a fast attack choice and got the Tzaangor Enlightened. Tzaangor Skyfires will probably end up being snipers, which means we'll be the only Traitor Legion with access to sniper weapons. There's no telling what the Mutalith is going to be since the Sigmar rules are pretty wild and not the kind of thing I'd expect to be ported directly to 40k, but hopefully it'll offer some strong anti-tank.
It just occurred to me... Since the Tzaangor Skyfires use bows, I wonder if they'll be S:User. If so you could buff their shooting with a Herald.
So are every other type of SM in the game, but entire armies can be fielded of those why not Rubrics?
"Tzzangors have been around for a while."
Yes, and T-Sons have made use of them. What they havent done is built entire armies of Tzzangors.
"You can still bring all Rubric armies"
Not if you want to have a snowballs chance in hell of winning. You will be paying 10 extra points for a smite you cant use for every squad over 3 not including any Sorcs you bring for HQ choices.
"Just try it out, DG worked pretty well"
Thats not an argument, but whatever. I probably will try it out. The problem is Plague Marines can be retrofitted to handle basically any situation. Rubrics can't which means there are holes which are going to be left wide open in the army.
"Can I have your stuff?"
No.
"How can you be so sure Rubrics will be over costed"
Changes to smite are going to render multiple units of Rubrics detramental to any army which can take them. Beyond 3 units, a -2 on smite rolls at that point, you are basically screwed when it comes to manifesting smite for which you paid.
"Thousand Sons are bland, they need something different"
And how is focusing on non-TS units going to make TS less bland. Thats like saying my spaghetti is bland so ill add a steak. Your spaghetti is still bland you just have a steak which creates the illusion of diversity.
Now some things I should make clear.
1.) I dont mind adding a couple of support units here or there its when half my roster is not from the army I picked to play.
2.) Most people have not addressed the smite change which is a big part of this complaint.
3.) Stop bringing up DG like PM are the same as Rubricae, PM are WAY more customizable.
The simple fact is once this codex drops a thousand sons army will have 3 units of Tzzangors on foot, 3-4 units Gors on disks, a couple of giant spawn, 2-3 Gor Shamen, MAYBE 2 units of Rubricae probably just 1 unit of 20 and 2 Exalted Sorcs on disks and Ahriman on a disk and that will probably come out to 1850 or so points when fully upgraded. You will have 50 Tzzangors on the table and just over half that when it comes to actual TS units.
Again don't get me wrong I dont mind some Tzzangors but when you look at this army you wont think the Tzzangors are there to support the Rubrics you will think the Rubrics are there to support the Tzzangors.
See we KNOW this isnt true even in the slightest, we KNOW exactly what they used, its in the legions crusade army list, there are limits of course on some things but they have access to the entire legion list pretty much.
So its not a case of OP not knowing the TS fluff, its GW not knowing its own fluff as usual, there is zero, zilch reason why TS could not band together there heavy weapons into Havoc squads, there specials into special weapon squads.
When the Rubric hit every non psyker TS was turned into Rubricai, thats command staff, assault marines, terminators, breachers, everything that was left, so why isnt it represented in the TT, simple, no model, no rules, lack of imagination of GW writers behalf and likely there lack of knowledge on the fluff, its sad but its easy to come up with different kinds of Rubric marines, GW just needs to give us the rules so we can do it on the TT.
The answer is pretty simple and obvious, 10,000 years has passed! Thousand sons are not the same organization it is in 30k, it has changed in structure, ethos and members. Why should they still mirror the legions 10k years in the past?
Now would I be against new rubric units? No, as long as they add something to the list and are not just because they are in the 30k list.
This is a pet peeve of mine, ever since the HH series exploded in popularity 30k has stopped being background to flesh out the 40kCSM and instead taking center-stage. It's even gotten to the level where we probably have more fluff for them in 30k then in 40k, which defeats the whole purpose of the HH for me. It was the 40kTS that made me love them, not 30k, and trying to make 40kTS to look more like 30k TS is all backwards.
When the Rubric hit every non psyker TS was turned into Rubricai, thats command staff, assault marines, terminators, breachers, everything that was left, so why isnt it represented in the TT, simple, no model, no rules, lack of imagination of GW writers behalf and likely there lack of knowledge on the fluff, its sad but its easy to come up with different kinds of Rubric marines, GW just needs to give us the rules so we can do it on the TT.
There are Rubric terminators. As for a lot of that other stuff, the Rubrics are probably too stupid to do any complex things without constant sorcerer supervision. Rubric command staff is right out.
nope not true, as elites they work, as HQ I agree nope, take an old praetor, he is now a rubric, so has a selection of weapons it could have, give it lower stats to represent its loss of "self", bam you have a rubric elite choice that is both fluffy and has a purpose (maybe an aura that -1 to LD or somthing), another is a legion herald, simply and Rubric with a Banner, next we can have a new character, a TS soul smith, someone has to repair the armour and either bring back rubricai or make new ones, GW makes up stuff like this all the time, it can be there apothecary equivalent, that 3 new elite choices.
Next we get Rubric, Rubric Hellfire squads (special weapon sqauds), Rubric Breachers (+1 AS for shield)
Heavy we get Rubric Havocs
so with very very little effort I have come up with easily convertible units, that 6 extra units that GW would not have to make a kit for.....
Just as a clarification – Most Thousand Sons Praetors in 30k were actually powerful psykers. This is referenced in the 30k game, as Praetors are often able to be lvl 3 psykers, and often had to be due to the Legion rules.
When the Rubric hit every non psyker TS was turned into Rubricai, thats command staff, assault marines, terminators, breachers, everything that was left, so why isnt it represented in the TT, simple, no model, no rules, lack of imagination of GW writers behalf and likely there lack of knowledge on the fluff, its sad but its easy to come up with different kinds of Rubric marines, GW just needs to give us the rules so we can do it on the TT.
There are Rubric terminators. As for a lot of that other stuff, the Rubrics are probably too stupid to do any complex things without constant sorcerer supervision. Rubric command staff is right out.
nope not true, as elites they work, as HQ I agree nope, take an old praetor, he is now a rubric, so has a selection of weapons it could have, give it lower stats to represent its loss of "self", bam you have a rubric elite choice that is both fluffy and has a purpose (maybe an aura that -1 to LD or somthing), another is a legion herald, simply and Rubric with a Banner, next we can have a new character, a TS soul smith, someone has to repair the armour and either bring back rubricai or make new ones, GW makes up stuff like this all the time, it can be there apothecary equivalent, that 3 new elite choices.
Next we get Rubric, Rubric Hellfire squads (special weapon sqauds), Rubric Breachers (+1 AS for shield)
Heavy we get Rubric Havocs
so with very very little effort I have come up with easily convertible units, that 6 extra units that GW would not have to make a kit for.....
Just as a clarification – Most Thousand Sons Praetors in 30k were actually powerful psykers. This is referenced in the 30k game, as Praetors are often able to be lvl 3 psykers, and often had to be due to the Legion rules.
See we KNOW this isnt true even in the slightest, we KNOW exactly what they used, its in the legions crusade army list, there are limits of course on some things but they have access to the entire legion list pretty much.
So its not a case of OP not knowing the TS fluff, its GW not knowing its own fluff as usual, there is zero, zilch reason why TS could not band together there heavy weapons into Havoc squads, there specials into special weapon squads.
When the Rubric hit every non psyker TS was turned into Rubricai, thats command staff, assault marines, terminators, breachers, everything that was left, so why isnt it represented in the TT, simple, no model, no rules, lack of imagination of GW writers behalf and likely there lack of knowledge on the fluff, its sad but its easy to come up with different kinds of Rubric marines, GW just needs to give us the rules so we can do it on the TT.
The answer is pretty simple and obvious, 10,000 years has passed! Thousand sons are not the same organization it is in 30k, it has changed in structure, ethos and members. Why should they still mirror the legions 10k years in the past?
Now would I be against new rubric units? No, as long as they add something to the list and are not just because they are in the 30k list.
This is a pet peeve of mine, ever since the HH series exploded in popularity 30k has stopped being background to flesh out the 40kCSM and instead taking center-stage. It's even gotten to the level where we probably have more fluff for them in 30k then in 40k, which defeats the whole purpose of the HH for me. It was the 40kTS that made me love them, not 30k, and trying to make 40kTS to look more like 30k TS is all backwards.
30k =/= 40k
That's the thing, they ARE the same organisation, they are the same people more or less, the rubrics are not affected by mutation so all that equipment they had would still be there and even if it wasn't, why wouldn't a sorcerer instruct his heavy weapon rubrics to form a havoc squad, it doesn't make sense, hence the disconnect.
I am using the 30k list as a prime example of the gear they have, and had, then applying simple logic that after the burning of prospero, planet of the sorcerers (crimson king), then there are still a hell of a lot of normal marines in the old legion roles, assault marine etc.
Then apply the rubric, these same non psyker marines suddenly drop whatever equipment they have and pick up a bolter, it doesn't make sense.
See we KNOW this isnt true even in the slightest, we KNOW exactly what they used, its in the legions crusade army list, there are limits of course on some things but they have access to the entire legion list pretty much.
So its not a case of OP not knowing the TS fluff, its GW not knowing its own fluff as usual, there is zero, zilch reason why TS could not band together there heavy weapons into Havoc squads, there specials into special weapon squads.
When the Rubric hit every non psyker TS was turned into Rubricai, thats command staff, assault marines, terminators, breachers, everything that was left, so why isnt it represented in the TT, simple, no model, no rules, lack of imagination of GW writers behalf and likely there lack of knowledge on the fluff, its sad but its easy to come up with different kinds of Rubric marines, GW just needs to give us the rules so we can do it on the TT.
The answer is pretty simple and obvious, 10,000 years has passed! Thousand sons are not the same organization it is in 30k, it has changed in structure, ethos and members. Why should they still mirror the legions 10k years in the past?
Now would I be against new rubric units? No, as long as they add something to the list and are not just because they are in the 30k list.
This is a pet peeve of mine, ever since the HH series exploded in popularity 30k has stopped being background to flesh out the 40kCSM and instead taking center-stage. It's even gotten to the level where we probably have more fluff for them in 30k then in 40k, which defeats the whole purpose of the HH for me. It was the 40kTS that made me love them, not 30k, and trying to make 40kTS to look more like 30k TS is all backwards.
30k =/= 40k
That's the thing, they ARE the same organisation, they are the same people more or less, the rubrics are not affected by mutation so all that equipment they had would still be there and even if it wasn't, why wouldn't a sorcerer instruct his heavy weapon rubrics to form a havoc squad, it doesn't make sense, hence the disconnect.
I am using the 30k list as a prime example of the gear they have, and had, then applying simple logic that after the burning of prospero, planet of the sorcerers (crimson king), then there are still a hell of a lot of normal marines in the old legion roles, assault marine etc.
Then apply the rubric, these same non psyker marines suddenly drop whatever equipment they have and pick up a bolter, it doesn't make sense.
I can't see rubric assault marines but I get your point. thing is to say "ohh it's the same" ignores the time they've had to develop post Heresy. I definatly think we need to step away a bit from the 30k legions and try to look at what the 40k legions are. as I noted earlier.the thousand sons are a legion no longer, instead they are a loose band of sorcrer kings. a 1k sons sorcrer, with his rubric body guard, some demon engines and ahoard of mutants makes a pretty awesome idea for an army.but at the same time you'll be able to construct an ary where the 1k sons choose to go to war as well. varity is good.
2.) Most people have not addressed the smite change which is a big part of this complaint.
I'm pretty sure the Smite problem will be somehow addressed in the codex, or at least in the point when (if ever) the trial smite rules become real rules. They either exempt them from the limitation, or give them another powers. If this doesn't happen, then you can complain.
2.) Most people have not addressed the smite change which is a big part of this complaint.
I'm pretty sure the Smite problem will be somehow addressed in the codex, or at least in the point when (if ever) the trial smite rules become real rules. They either exempt them from the limitation, or give them another powers. If this doesn't happen, then you can complain.
Major logic problem with that arqument. Either GW has been holding for smite rules for months AND set it in stone(what sort of beta rules that is then?) or codex rules were finalized long before smite rules were even came up with. So BEST you can hope for is codex being errata'ed right away.
2.) Most people have not addressed the smite change which is a big part of this complaint.
I'm pretty sure the Smite problem will be somehow addressed in the codex, or at least in the point when (if ever) the trial smite rules become real rules. They either exempt them from the limitation, or give them another powers. If this doesn't happen, then you can complain.
When the Rubric hit every non psyker TS was turned into Rubricai, thats command staff, assault marines, terminators, breachers, everything that was left, so why isnt it represented in the TT, simple, no model, no rules, lack of imagination of GW writers behalf and likely there lack of knowledge on the fluff, its sad but its easy to come up with different kinds of Rubric marines, GW just needs to give us the rules so we can do it on the TT.
There are Rubric terminators. As for a lot of that other stuff, the Rubrics are probably too stupid to do any complex things without constant sorcerer supervision. Rubric command staff is right out.
nope not true, as elites they work, as HQ I agree nope, take an old praetor, he is now a rubric, so has a selection of weapons it could have, give it lower stats to represent its loss of "self", bam you have a rubric elite choice that is both fluffy and has a purpose (maybe an aura that -1 to LD or somthing), another is a legion herald, simply and Rubric with a Banner, next we can have a new character, a TS soul smith, someone has to repair the armour and either bring back rubricai or make new ones, GW makes up stuff like this all the time, it can be there apothecary equivalent, that 3 new elite choices.
Next we get Rubric, Rubric Hellfire squads (special weapon sqauds), Rubric Breachers (+1 AS for shield)
Heavy we get Rubric Havocs
so with very very little effort I have come up with easily convertible units, that 6 extra units that GW would not have to make a kit for.....
Just as a clarification – Most Thousand Sons Praetors in 30k were actually powerful psykers. This is referenced in the 30k game, as Praetors are often able to be lvl 3 psykers, and often had to be due to the Legion rules.
which means in 40k rules they'd be sorcrers.
I agree. Was stating the fact, as the original posted said that the Praetors would have all become Rubricai, when, in actual fact, due to their powers they would have remained as they were, and thus keep a "leadership" system in place.
To be fair, the rule is in beta stages. It's not decided whether it will be rolled out as a permanent change yet.
I'm more concerned about whether 1ksons will get the Chaos Familiar strategem, which is really well suited to them, especially Scarabs. When they can drop in and cast prescience, warptime or weaver of fates on themselves, they're a lot more tasty.
Fingers crossed that this ability is the Chapter Tactic - i.e. When part of a Thousand Sons detachment, aspiring sorcerers can be given a psychic power to replace the minismite. That would have a big effect on Rubrics and Scarabs' viability imo.
When the Rubric hit every non psyker TS was turned into Rubricai, thats command staff, assault marines, terminators, breachers, everything that was left, so why isnt it represented in the TT, simple, no model, no rules, lack of imagination of GW writers behalf and likely there lack of knowledge on the fluff, its sad but its easy to come up with different kinds of Rubric marines, GW just needs to give us the rules so we can do it on the TT.
There are Rubric terminators. As for a lot of that other stuff, the Rubrics are probably too stupid to do any complex things without constant sorcerer supervision. Rubric command staff is right out.
nope not true, as elites they work, as HQ I agree nope, take an old praetor, he is now a rubric, so has a selection of weapons it could have, give it lower stats to represent its loss of "self", bam you have a rubric elite choice that is both fluffy and has a purpose (maybe an aura that -1 to LD or somthing), another is a legion herald, simply and Rubric with a Banner, next we can have a new character, a TS soul smith, someone has to repair the armour and either bring back rubricai or make new ones, GW makes up stuff like this all the time, it can be there apothecary equivalent, that 3 new elite choices.
Next we get Rubric, Rubric Hellfire squads (special weapon sqauds), Rubric Breachers (+1 AS for shield)
Heavy we get Rubric Havocs
so with very very little effort I have come up with easily convertible units, that 6 extra units that GW would not have to make a kit for.....
Just as a clarification – Most Thousand Sons Praetors in 30k were actually powerful psykers. This is referenced in the 30k game, as Praetors are often able to be lvl 3 psykers, and often had to be due to the Legion rules.
which means in 40k rules they'd be sorcrers.
I agree. Was stating the fact, as the original posted said that the Praetors would have all become Rubricai, when, in actual fact, due to their powers they would have remained as they were, and thus keep a "leadership" system in place.
Your right and wrong, not all praetors were psykers, but I do agree that they would be the "sorcerers" of 40k, but we are missing other command staff roles, a banner would be the most obvious and easiest to implement, literally just a Rubicai holding a magic banner of some sort, plus it's a sorcerer saying "hold this"
I'm a bit curious. If people think Thousand Sons are dead now, what did they think when the full extent of Thousand Sons in 40K was a single unit of old metal infantry (with one weapon), and one named character?
Elbows wrote: I'm a bit curious. If people think Thousand Sons are dead now, what did they think when the full extent of Thousand Sons in 40K was a single unit of old metal infantry (with one weapon), and one named character?
Hyperbole knows no limits.
I'm most excited for stratagems and powers. I've been playing Black Legion, because I just can't give up VotLW. I'll miss Abby's rerolls, but i'm sure i'll find other tools.
Elbows wrote: I'm a bit curious. If people think Thousand Sons are dead now, what did they think when the full extent of Thousand Sons in 40K was a single unit of old metal infantry (with one weapon), and one named character?
Elbows wrote: I'm a bit curious. If people think Thousand Sons are dead now, what did they think when the full extent of Thousand Sons in 40K was a single unit of old metal infantry (with one weapon), and one named character?
GW are not making any new models unless it's far down the pipeline. If they had new models, like a 1k Sons Libby Dread, they'd have showed it off at the games day event. And on top of that, this book has probably been done for awhile, in production and print, before the new Smite rules even come out so the book probably won't be balanced for that either. And you still dont use smite from your small sorcs, the odds of blowing up and killing half your squad sucks. It's all pointless and Thousand Sons now, by fluff, should be on their way out as a Legion (Legion itself is a laugh as there are what, only a couple hundred left?).
Like OP said, it's now a Tzaangor codex supported by 1k Sons which do less than the Gors do already.
It's all pointless and Thousand Sons now, by fluff, should be on their way out as a Legion (Legion itself is a laugh as there are what, only a couple hundred left?).
They can re-entomb the dust into new armors and they continue on, and they recruit new Sorcerers to lead them. While using slave armies at the forefront.
nintura wrote: GW are not making any new models unless it's far down the pipeline. If they had new models, like a 1k Sons Libby Dread, they'd have showed it off at the games day event. And on top of that, this book has probably been done for awhile, in production and print, before the new Smite rules even come out so the book probably won't be balanced for that either. And you still dont use smite from your small sorcs, the odds of blowing up and killing half your squad sucks. It's all pointless and Thousand Sons now, by fluff, should be on their way out as a Legion (Legion itself is a laugh as there are what, only a couple hundred left?).
Like OP said, it's now a Tzaangor codex supported by 1k Sons which do less than the Gors do already.
You forgot they also have a chaos....tyranid..thing in the book.
SilverAlien wrote: Can tsons even recruit new sorcerers? What happens if they put the geneseed in a non sorcerer? Instant dust?
A a post-heresy recruit called Khrove appears in one of the Black Library stories. He was a psyker cultist captured and recruited by the Thousand Sons.
The Thousand Sons probably do recruit new sorcerers from promising psykers, though I imagine the process to be rare and infrequent.
So if they can recruit new sorcerers (presumably using geneseed from their existing sorcerers) what's stopping them from recruiting new non-psyker marines too?
Crimson wrote: So if they can recruit new sorcerers (presumably using geneseed from their existing sorcerers) what's stopping them from recruiting new non-psyker marines too?
What's the point of having an army defined and differentiated by it's use of psykers if you're just going to give them the same organization as any other legion anyways?
Crimson wrote: So if they can recruit new sorcerers (presumably using geneseed from their existing sorcerers) what's stopping them from recruiting new non-psyker marines too?
What's the point of having an army defined and differentiated by it's use of psykers if you're just going to give them the same organization as any other legion anyways?
The had regular marines before. And apparently Ahriman has tried to undo the rubric, so he regrets it. But if he wanted non-dust, non-sorcerer TS, I can see no logical reason why he could not just recruit new ones. It gotta be way easier than undoing the rubric.
You could always just not take the units you don't like.
As a life long Space Wolf fan I despised the concept of TWC and I despise the Santa Sleigh and I despise the very idea that the Space Wolves would ever accept Primaris Marines even after Fenris got purged and thus causing the Space Wolves to be a dead chapter walking.
Instead of moaning about it, I just don't use those models, and say my dudes are from M39 instead of M42.
Arachnofiend wrote: I like how people's idea of imaginative is "Rubrics, but in a different force org slot!"
I mean, I get the point you're making and I mostly agree with it. However, if you look at the Death Guard codex you kinda ask yourself why there's so many inconsistencies. I'm honestly STILL salty that Plague Marines don't have two Attacks without giving up the Bolter. This was NEVER an issue before, and there's no Veteran/Chosen equivalent either.
Crimson wrote: So if they can recruit new sorcerers (presumably using geneseed from their existing sorcerers) what's stopping them from recruiting new non-psyker marines too?
What's the point of having an army defined and differentiated by it's use of psykers if you're just going to give them the same organization as any other legion anyways?
The had regular marines before. And apparently Ahriman has tried to undo the rubric, so he regrets it. But if he wanted non-dust, non-sorcerer TS, I can see no logical reason why he could not just recruit new ones. It gotta be way easier than undoing the rubric.
That was 30k, where every army is functionally identical. And you're completely misunderstanding the nature of Ahriman's quest if A) you think he will ever succeed and B) that just recruiting new people would ever be an acceptable replacement for the friends he lost.
Arachnofiend wrote: I like how people's idea of imaginative is "Rubrics, but in a different force org slot!"
I mean, I get the point you're making and I mostly agree with it. However, if you look at the Death Guard codex you kinda ask yourself why there's so many inconsistencies. I'm honestly STILL salty that Plague Marines don't have two Attacks without giving up the Bolter. This was NEVER an issue before, and there's no Veteran/Chosen equivalent either.
This is a new edition. Very few models come with buckets of attacks as their base. There are no vets/chosen, because PG and Rubrics are already "elite" - when you've been alive for 10,000 years pretty much everyone is a veteran...hence VotLW. Now if you just wanted units with more special weapons, well, it won't hurt you to play outside the box now and then.
That was 30k, where every army is functionally identical. And you're completely misunderstanding the nature of Ahriman's quest if A) you think he will ever succeed and B) that just recruiting new people would ever be an acceptable replacement for the friends he lost.
Whatever. My point is that having non-psychic, non-rubric marines in a TS army shouldn't be unfluffy. They can recruit them and there are plenty of more non-psychic recruit candidates than psychic ones, so if you need manpower then that's what you get.
This is a new edition. Very few models come with buckets of attacks as their base. There are no vets/chosen, because PG and Rubrics are already "elite" - when you've been alive for 10,000 years pretty much everyone is a veteran...hence VotLW.
Whatever. My point is that having non-psychic, non-rubric marines in a TS army shouldn't be unfluffy. They can recruit them and there are plenty of more non-psychic recruit candidates than psychic ones, so if you need manpower then that's what you get.
Oh look...Tzaangors! And they're even on the same planet!
That was 30k, where every army is functionally identical. And you're completely misunderstanding the nature of Ahriman's quest if A) you think he will ever succeed and B) that just recruiting new people would ever be an acceptable replacement for the friends he lost.
Whatever. My point is that having non-psychic, non-rubric marines in a TS army shouldn't be unfluffy. They can recruit them and there are plenty of more non-psychic recruit candidates than psychic ones, so if you need manpower then that's what you get.
This is a new edition. Very few models come with buckets of attacks as their base. There are no vets/chosen, because PG and Rubrics are already "elite" - when you've been alive for 10,000 years pretty much everyone is a veteran...hence VotLW.
Why they don't have veteran stats then?
This makes me wonder if the rubric is also a curse on the gene seed, one assumes the TS must have tried to recruit non psykers, but what was the result? massive mutation? the new marine turns to dust like its previous kin? this is something I hope they cover in the new dex.
Whatever. My point is that having non-psychic, non-rubric marines in a TS army shouldn't be unfluffy. They can recruit them and there are plenty of more non-psychic recruit candidates than psychic ones, so if you need manpower then that's what you get.
Oh look...Tzaangors! And they're even on the same planet!
They were ALREADY expensive in points, and Plague Marines still are after Chapter Approved. That argument doesn't hold an inch of water.
The had regular marines before. And apparently Ahriman has tried to undo the rubric, so he regrets it. But if he wanted non-dust, non-sorcerer TS, I can see no logical reason why he could not just recruit new ones. It gotta be way easier than undoing the rubric.
Read the trilogy on this rough topic a while back. But suffice to say rampant mutation is a good reason why the geneseed isn't' very useful outside psykers. Undoing the Rubric is more about not screwing it up and turning people to dust more than regretting trying to stop the mutation. And dude is pretty much Tzeentch's buttmonkey who's had just enough hope dangled in front of him to be willing to break order to attempt to achieve his personal quest.
That said, nothing at all stops a thousand son from commanding a wider warband, but it's not a legion unit unless it consists of the legion, 90% or more of which's geneseed went poof with the ritual. You've got two possible implantations per living ts sorcerer. That's not a good build rate.
They've got a far better shot at turning renegade librarians than building their own.
I assume all new Thousand Sons marines that aren't psykers will mutate like crazy, but even worse now that they are all the time around Tzeentch and chaos magic.
And lets remember that Chaos marines have a harder time than Loyalist replenishing their numbers. Thats why guys like Fabius Bile are so popular with Chaos Lords.
Crimson wrote: So if they can recruit new sorcerers (presumably using geneseed from their existing sorcerers) what's stopping them from recruiting new non-psyker marines too?
What's the point of having an army defined and differentiated by it's use of psykers if you're just going to give them the same organization as any other legion anyways?
The had regular marines before. And apparently Ahriman has tried to undo the rubric, so he regrets it. But if he wanted non-dust, non-sorcerer TS, I can see no logical reason why he could not just recruit new ones. It gotta be way easier than undoing the rubric.
Yes he's trying to undo the Rubric so he can redo it properly.
Whatever. My point is that having non-psychic, non-rubric marines in a TS army shouldn't be unfluffy. They can recruit them and there are plenty of more non-psychic recruit candidates than psychic ones, so if you need manpower then that's what you get.
Oh look...Tzaangors! And they're even on the same planet!
Which is fine, just not as most of the entire army.
There has to be non-psychic Tsons. If there was not the legion would not work. Who is driving that rhino? Who is piloting that fire raptor? Who is fixing everything? Its certainly not rubric marines or sorc's. So by this fact we can see that there must be non sorc/rubric Tsons in some capacity. The problem is whenever Tson fluff is presented it doubles down on the rubric/sorc porn. So people get caught into that mindset. Now, another issue is how rubrics are replaced or repaired? I find it hard to imagine a recruited marine would don a suit of rubric armor and let himself be blasted to dust only to haunt said armor in a mind fethed haze. So for my headcanon I prefer to say that they have now a approximation of the rubric spell that summons some form of servant to inhabit the armor. Perhaps Rubrics have something akin to soul stones that capture the spirit if the armor is destroyed and teleported to safe keeping (ala necrons). There are so many ways to answer these questions with no existing fluff covering them, so go wild with the headcanon.
Also, I find it pointless to worry about the BETA smite nerf. The codex was clearly made with the current rules and the best we can hope for is a quick update in some form and not have to wait for the next CA. We dont even know if the BETA rule is going to pass inspection. My bet is it wont as it creates just as many problems as it solves.
The only thing I am worried about is the state of affairs with scarab occult terminators. They are a redundant unit trying to fill the same role as rubrics while having a power sword as the hook. The swords have always been on limited use seeing as SOT do not want to be in close combat. The thing that gave them dubious worth to counteract the redundant factors was you got a lvl 2 sorc in the bargain. The index nuked that. I am not confident it will be fixed. And SOTs will inherit the title of worst terminator in the game.
Look, I can play a Thousand Sons army that relies on very little Thousand Sons legion units. But the ones you get to take have to be really strong. They have to show why they've survived so long on their own. They need to have some real power to show they can hold their own with so few models and mostly daemon units.
They were ALREADY expensive in points, and Plague Marines still are after Chapter Approved. That argument doesn't hold an inch of water.
That misses the point - and they should be I'd rather have T5 and 5+++ or 5++, +1 save, and relentless over an extra attack any day.
YOU are missing the point. The extra attack is something Berserker, Noise, and Plague Marines had in some form, whether it be base or from having an extra weapon. Plague Marines are the only ones that lost this and that's ridiculous.
I'd argue Rubric Marines need the extra attack too out of principle but that's a different topic.
Oh, and people keep asking for Rubric Dreadnoughts. How would they ruleswise differ from regular Hellbrutes or Hellforged Dreadnoughts?
How would they differ? Psyker Dread? Not hard. Grant them Warp Flame style weapons. Imagine a Dread with dual Warp Flamers and Fists casting Warptime on itself to close the gap. That gak would be terrifying!
There has to be non-psychic Tsons. If there was not the legion would not work. Who is driving that rhino? Who is piloting that fire raptor? Who is fixing everything?
bound demons in the case of the first two, and slaves in the case of the latter.
There has to be non-psychic Tsons. If there was not the legion would not work. Who is driving that rhino? Who is piloting that fire raptor? Who is fixing everything?
bound demons in the case of the first two, and slaves in the case of the latter.
Well seeing as there is no fluff answer (offical) it would have to come down to personal headcanon. But your suggestion of bound demons is very cool in theory but it is not reflected in the TT stats of said units. Id have to disagree with the slaves fixing any piece of tech as its far to complicated. Id say its more likely that the Tsons has a few dark mechanicum on call.
I hope the new codex solves these lore issues in some fashion but im doubtful. But Tsons are not alone in the crazy non working lore department.
There has to be non-psychic Tsons. If there was not the legion would not work. Who is driving that rhino? Who is piloting that fire raptor? Who is fixing everything?
bound demons in the case of the first two, and slaves in the case of the latter.
Well seeing as there is no fluff answer (offical) it would have to come down to personal headcanon. But your suggestion of bound demons is very cool in theory but it is not reflected in the TT stats of said units. Id have to disagree with the slaves fixing any piece of tech as its far to complicated. Id say its more likely that the Tsons has a few dark mechanicum on call.
I hope the new codex solves these lore issues in some fashion but im doubtful. But Tsons are not alone in the crazy non working lore department.
This is why I suggested how easy it would be to make a new character, a soul smith, like a techmarine/apothecary kind of character, in fact screw GW, when this new dex drops and is a sack of boring nonsense I will just make my own with a bit of community help.
They were ALREADY expensive in points, and Plague Marines still are after Chapter Approved. That argument doesn't hold an inch of water.
That misses the point - and they should be I'd rather have T5 and 5+++ or 5++, +1 save, and relentless over an extra attack any day.
YOU are missing the point. The extra attack is something Berserker, Noise, and Plague Marines had in some form, whether it be base or from having an extra weapon. Plague Marines are the only ones that lost this and that's ridiculous.
I'd argue Rubric Marines need the extra attack too out of principle but that's a different topic.
Oi vey.
DG in 7th were base 1. VV were base 2. Exactly what they are now.
So, yea, DG "lost" an attack from the 2 ccw rule, but now have a ton more options and can STILL get to 2 attacks if they want to. Why a 22 point axe/knife DG kills 0.64 VV and a 16 point VV kills 0.22 DG. Hell even a 17 point double knife DG kills 0.26 VV.
So, yea if you want your DG to cost way more with 2 attacks base then good for you.
There has to be non-psychic Tsons. If there was not the legion would not work. Who is driving that rhino? Who is piloting that fire raptor? Who is fixing everything?
bound demons in the case of the first two, and slaves in the case of the latter.
Well seeing as there is no fluff answer (offical) it would have to come down to personal headcanon. But your suggestion of bound demons is very cool in theory but it is not reflected in the TT stats of said units. Id have to disagree with the slaves fixing any piece of tech as its far to complicated. Id say its more likely that the Tsons has a few dark mechanicum on call.
I hope the new codex solves these lore issues in some fashion but im doubtful. But Tsons are not alone in the crazy non working lore department.
This is why I suggested how easy it would be to make a new character, a soul smith, like a techmarine/apothecary kind of character, in fact screw GW, when this new dex drops and is a sack of boring nonsense I will just make my own with a bit of community help.
I'd be all for more psyker characters that are weaker than the Exalted but have other stuff they can do, like a psyker warpsmith that buffs daemon engines. I think that's a more "on-fluff" approach to expanding the marine side of the Thousand Sons than just trying to make a Rubric version of every Marine unit.
Arachnofiend wrote: I'd be all for more psyker characters that are weaker than the Exalted but have other stuff they can do, like a psyker warpsmith that buffs daemon engines. I think that's a more "on-fluff" approach to expanding the marine side of the Thousand Sons than just trying to make a Rubric version of every Marine unit.
speaking as someone whose played Grey Knights, the problem with that approuch is you get a lot of useless crap because you end up paying for psykers on gak you don't need to be.
Arachnofiend wrote: I'd be all for more psyker characters that are weaker than the Exalted but have other stuff they can do, like a psyker warpsmith that buffs daemon engines. I think that's a more "on-fluff" approach to expanding the marine side of the Thousand Sons than just trying to make a Rubric version of every Marine unit.
speaking as someone whose played Grey Knights, the problem with that approuch is you get a lot of useless crap because you end up paying for psykers on gak you don't need to be.
I think this is largely a problem with Grey Knights (and Tzeentch Daemons, and potentially Thousand Sons too) just not having enough psychic powers to cast. Craftworld Eldar don't care about the smite nerf because they have 18 fething spells to go through before they want to cast Smite. If Grey Knights had 12 spells, both their own unique list and the Space Marine list, having all those extra psykers would be a bit more handy, I think.
Arachnofiend wrote: I'd be all for more psyker characters that are weaker than the Exalted but have other stuff they can do, like a psyker warpsmith that buffs daemon engines. I think that's a more "on-fluff" approach to expanding the marine side of the Thousand Sons than just trying to make a Rubric version of every Marine unit.
speaking as someone whose played Grey Knights, the problem with that approuch is you get a lot of useless crap because you end up paying for psykers on gak you don't need to be.
I think this is largely a problem with Grey Knights (and Tzeentch Daemons, and potentially Thousand Sons too) just not having enough psychic powers to cast. Craftworld Eldar don't care about the smite nerf because they have 18 fething spells to go through before they want to cast Smite. If Grey Knights had 12 spells, both their own unique list and the Space Marine list, having all those extra psykers would be a bit more handy, I think.
On that I agree, psyker heavy lists need more spells. that said, even before 8th edition, how many GKs took tech marines (save for when they wanted a dirt cheap HQ choice)? specialist HQs for the 1k sons aren't a bad idea but at the same time I think also having some elite servants providing similer things could be a good idea too, and avoid having to pay for marine stats + psyker just so you have have a re-roll bubble.
See we KNOW this isnt true even in the slightest, we KNOW exactly what they used, its in the legions crusade army list, there are limits of course on some things but they have access to the entire legion list pretty much.
So its not a case of OP not knowing the TS fluff, its GW not knowing its own fluff as usual, there is zero, zilch reason why TS could not band together there heavy weapons into Havoc squads, there specials into special weapon squads.
When the Rubric hit every non psyker TS was turned into Rubricai, thats command staff, assault marines, terminators, breachers, everything that was left, so why isnt it represented in the TT, simple, no model, no rules, lack of imagination of GW writers behalf and likely there lack of knowledge on the fluff, its sad but its easy to come up with different kinds of Rubric marines, GW just needs to give us the rules so we can do it on the TT.
The answer is pretty simple and obvious, 10,000 years has passed! Thousand sons are not the same organization it is in 30k, it has changed in structure, ethos and members. Why should they still mirror the legions 10k years in the past?
Now would I be against new rubric units? No, as long as they add something to the list and are not just because they are in the 30k list.
This is a pet peeve of mine, ever since the HH series exploded in popularity 30k has stopped being background to flesh out the 40kCSM and instead taking center-stage. It's even gotten to the level where we probably have more fluff for them in 30k then in 40k, which defeats the whole purpose of the HH for me. It was the 40kTS that made me love them, not 30k, and trying to make 40kTS to look more like 30k TS is all backwards.
30k =/= 40k
That's the thing, they ARE the same organisation, they are the same people more or less, the rubrics are not affected by mutation so all that equipment they had would still be there and even if it wasn't, why wouldn't a sorcerer instruct his heavy weapon rubrics to form a havoc squad, it doesn't make sense, hence the disconnect.
I am using the 30k list as a prime example of the gear they have, and had, then applying simple logic that after the burning of prospero, planet of the sorcerers (crimson king), then there are still a hell of a lot of normal marines in the old legion roles, assault marine etc.
Then apply the rubric, these same non psyker marines suddenly drop whatever equipment they have and pick up a bolter, it doesn't make sense.
They are not, in 30k they are a breakaway faction of the imperium and in 40k they are a collection of sorcerer-kings residing on a deamon world. Their supplies, training, organisation is totally different now, they have no access to imperial forge-worlds, they dont have a recruitment process, the internal hierarchy is totally different, the list goes on.
Now I agree that a rubric unit with heavy weapons could be cool, but they wouldn't have the same gear they did back in 30k(just like they dont have standard bolters/flamers/assault cannons now). They should have freaky warp-based weapons that reflects the force they are now. And that's the crux of the issue, you should look at the TS on how they are in 40k, instead of looking back and trying to recreate 30k TS.
They are the same people, with more experience, yep they are a collection of sorcerer kings, as well as many other things, some of which reside on the planet of sorcerors. There organisation is still roughly equivalent to the legions of old, as seen in the chaos marine codex, they have access to dark mechanhicus forge worlds and build there own kit, we don't know how they recruit, the internal heirarchy is still military based as shown in several novels, but different from the heresy naming conventions, yes the list goes on.
They do have access to a lot of the same gear as the heresy, they just don't have them on the models, if they wanted 4 auto cannon for a rubric havoc squad, they would just pay for them, steal them or make a deal for them, like every other chaos legion/chapter, they do have standard bolters etc. But with inferno bolts, different ammunition basically, and yep I agree they should have freaky warp based gear, in addition to the basics, not instead of the the basics.
And yep that is the crux of the issue, the 40k sons are not consistent with the 30k ones, the new codex needs to explain why they are not consistent to satisfy me, it needs to explain who drives the vehicles, how they replace loses, where all that equipment went, why sorcerors are so dumb they can't band a few guys together to form special weapon, heavy and other units when they are the same sorcerers that served with those same units, did they forget there training or somthing?
Most importantly the "no model, no rules" crap needs to die, give us these units, let us make them and covert them.
They were ALREADY expensive in points, and Plague Marines still are after Chapter Approved. That argument doesn't hold an inch of water.
That misses the point - and they should be I'd rather have T5 and 5+++ or 5++, +1 save, and relentless over an extra attack any day.
YOU are missing the point. The extra attack is something Berserker, Noise, and Plague Marines had in some form, whether it be base or from having an extra weapon. Plague Marines are the only ones that lost this and that's ridiculous.
I'd argue Rubric Marines need the extra attack too out of principle but that's a different topic.
Oi vey.
DG in 7th were base 1. VV were base 2. Exactly what they are now.
So, yea, DG "lost" an attack from the 2 ccw rule, but now have a ton more options and can STILL get to 2 attacks if they want to. Why a 22 point axe/knife DG kills 0.64 VV and a 16 point VV kills 0.22 DG. Hell even a 17 point double knife DG kills 0.26 VV.
So, yea if you want your DG to cost way more with 2 attacks base then good for you.
They're supposed to be Veterans is the point. How many editions have you played?
They not only lost an attack from the extra Bolt Pistol plus Knife....they lost the Bolt Pistol! I don't need Plague Marines robbed cheaper because Cultists and now Pox Walkers do that job.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Wait so what's the complaint here? Can someone sum it up for me?
Is it really that there aren't enough Rubric Marines in other slots to go with the Rubric Marine troops choices?
Some don't like that tzaangors are taking focus from the thousand sons in the thousand sons codex.
Some think there is a lack of units for thousand sons themselves.
I personally think the book will be uninspired and yet another wasted opportunity to bring fresh blood into a stale concept, it will have all the usual bells and whistles of 8th, 1 or two gimmicks and then we will still be stuck with a lack of thousand sons units, in short I think gw are going to make a boring codex
"Tzaangors" are taking the "focus" from 1k sons? What does that phrase mean exactly? The rules focus? The focus of the eye (as in they look better)? The narrative focus?
And there's probably not a lack of units. Sororitas have 11 (?) choices, and 1k sons will probably have about that many in their dex.
As for the 'dex being boring: what does that mean? That you'll not be entertained by it personally? That it won't do anything cool and flashy? That it'll be uninspiring for people that don't already play 1k sons? Or even uninspiring for existing 1k sons players?
Unit1126PLL wrote: "Tzaangors" are taking the "focus" from 1k sons? What does that phrase mean exactly? The rules focus? The focus of the eye (as in they look better)? The narrative focus?
And there's probably not a lack of units. Sororitas have 11 (?) choices, and 1k sons will probably have about that many in their dex.
As for the 'dex being boring: what does that mean? That you'll not be entertained by it personally? That it won't do anything cool and flashy? That it'll be uninspiring for people that don't already play 1k sons? Or even uninspiring for existing 1k sons players?
You must have missed the last several pages.
Thousand Sons is not a competitive stand alone codex and certainly not a fair one for those who want to play the actual Legion Thousand Sons. There are 3 unique Thousand Sons kits not including special characters. We just got 2 new Tzaangor units, bumping us to 3, maybe a 4th if Skyfires become legal. Thousand Sons units themselves are far too expensive and specialized meaning you have to bring Tzaangors (by design of the index/codex) to fill in the spots. This basically means (to me and many others) we are playing a Tzaangor codex backed up by support Thousand Sons. The focus/spotlight feels like it's on the Gors and not the Marines.
Formosa wrote: They are the same people, with more experience, yep they are a collection of sorcerer kings, as well as many other things, some of which reside on the planet of sorcerors. There organisation is still roughly equivalent to the legions of old, as seen in the chaos marine codex, they have access to dark mechanhicus forge worlds and build there own kit, we don't know how they recruit, the internal heirarchy is still military based as shown in several novels, but different from the heresy naming conventions, yes the list goes on.
They do have access to a lot of the same gear as the heresy, they just don't have them on the models, if they wanted 4 auto cannon for a rubric havoc squad, they would just pay for them, steal them or make a deal for them, like every other chaos legion/chapter, they do have standard bolters etc. But with inferno bolts, different ammunition basically, and yep I agree they should have freaky warp based gear, in addition to the basics, not instead of the the basics.
And yep that is the crux of the issue, the 40k sons are not consistent with the 30k ones, the new codex needs to explain why they are not consistent to satisfy me, it needs to explain who drives the vehicles, how they replace loses, where all that equipment went, why sorcerors are so dumb they can't band a few guys together to form special weapon, heavy and other units when they are the same sorcerers that served with those same units, did they forget there training or somthing?
Most importantly the "no model, no rules" crap needs to die, give us these units, let us make them and covert them.
This has never made real sense for any 40k faction, least of all the CSM. The scale trope is in full effect.
I find it completely surreal that people dare to complain that there are not enough TS stuff when they just recently got several kits. Sure, there always could be more, but they've got more stuff than ever before.
Well, it's hard to not have more than ever before when you only had 1 kit to begin with and it was 2nd edition.... and you missed the point completely.
nintura wrote: Well, it's hard to not have more than ever before when you only had 1 kit to begin with and it was 2nd edition.... and you missed the point completely.
No I didn't. You have more stuff than ever before. How did you play the army before? Now you have more options.
Also, this seems to be part of the usual trend of Chaos players not actually wanting to play Chaos marines, but heresy marines in 40K. Most TS are empty automaton suits. That's what they have been since 2nd edition, you knew this when you chose the faction.
They're supposed to be Veterans is the point. How many editions have you played?
They not only lost an attack from the extra Bolt Pistol plus Knife....they lost the Bolt Pistol! I don't need Plague Marines robbed cheaper because Cultists and now Pox Walkers do that job.
I've played for 26 years now, but I'm not quite sure why that is relevant.
You're right, those bolt pistols are so devastating and DG have no other benefits at all.
Pox Walkers don't have power weapons or grenades. Stop being ridiculous. DG et al are elite in any other book. They get to be troops in their own book, because of the other restrictions.
DG don't get a second attack just because you've internally justified the reasons to yourself nor do they need it to be effective.
nintura wrote: Well, it's hard to not have more than ever before when you only had 1 kit to begin with and it was 2nd edition.... and you missed the point completely.
No I didn't. You have more stuff than ever before. How did you play the army before? Now you have more options.
Also, this seems to be part of the usual trend of Chaos players not actually wanting to play Chaos marines, but heresy marines in 40K. Most TS are empty automaton suits. That's what they have been since 2nd edition, you knew this when you chose the faction.
Wow really? Automatons you say? I'm glad you told me! That makes total sense when it comes to rules and how the army should play.... /s
And I didnt play the army before, because you couldn't. And I'm still not, because the codex is Tzaangor with Thousand Sons backup. My 1k Army? 1 Rubric Squad, 1 Occult squad, 1 Ahriman. Then it's 3 Tzaangor, Helbrute, Helturkey, Pred. 2 squads of Thousand Sons. Because they are too damned expensive and don't really do anything at all on their own. Then you go and nerf smite while keeping their Sorcerers (the backbone of their army in the lore) weak? Because yeah....
I have no idea what the point of that comment was about? What does them being suits of dust have to do with not having a way to play a real 1k Sons list? I want to play Thousand Sons, not Beastmen with backup Thousand Sons. And I dont want to play blue/gold generic chaos space marines. This is a codex. Not the index. You should have enough to actually support building an army, not just Rubrics and Occult Termies. Literally, most 1500 point armies only have 1 or 2 squads of actual Thousand Sons units. Much army, such wow.
Wow really? Automatons you say? I'm glad you told me! That makes total sense when it comes to rules and how the army should play.... /s
I have no idea what the point of that comment was about? What does them being suits of dust have to do with not having a way to play a real 1k Sons list? I want to play Thousand Sons, not Beastmen with backup Thousand Sons. And I dont want to play blue/gold generic chaos space marines. This is a codex. Not the index. You should have enough to actually support building an army, not just Rubrics and Occult Termies. Literally, most 1500 point armies only have 1 or 2 squads of actual Thousand Sons units. Much army, such wow.
This was the case in the last edition too. You knew this when you chose the faction. And now you have more options in form of new Tzaangors and Vortex Beasts, you just don't want to include them.
Robrics should be solid units and worth choosing, that is clear. If it is not the case now, it should be after the codex. And if it is not, then you can complain. But complaining that there are no rubric assault marines or havocs or whatever is just weird. There never was such things. (And yes, there could, but there is a limit how many new plastic kits GW can make.)
And I didnt play the army before, because you couldn't. And I'm still not, because the codex is Tzaangor with Thousand Sons backup. My 1k Army? 1 Rubric Squad, 1 Occult squad, 1 Ahriman. Then it's 3 Tzaangor, Helbrute, Helturkey, Pred. 2 squads of Thousand Sons.
Remove Tzaangors, add more Thousand Sons. Hellbrute and Hellturkey can be piloted by dust marines rather than by flesh marines. That's just fluff. Model them appropriately.
Because they are too damned expensive and don't really do anything at all on their own. Then you go and nerf smite while keeping their Sorcerers (the backbone of their army in the lore) weak? Because yeah....
And if that is the case after the codex is released, then your complaint is valid. Also, the smite nerf is a trail rule, it is not official yet.
nintura wrote: Thousand Sons is not a competitive stand alone codex and certainly not a fair one for those who want to play the actual Legion Thousand Sons. .
They're supposed to be Veterans is the point. How many editions have you played?
They not only lost an attack from the extra Bolt Pistol plus Knife....they lost the Bolt Pistol! I don't need Plague Marines robbed cheaper because Cultists and now Pox Walkers do that job.
I've played for 26 years now, but I'm not quite sure why that is relevant.
You're right, those bolt pistols are so devastating and DG have no other benefits at all.
Pox Walkers don't have power weapons or grenades. Stop being ridiculous. DG et al are elite in any other book. They get to be troops in their own book, because of the other restrictions.
DG don't get a second attack just because you've internally justified the reasons to yourself nor do they need it to be effective.
Death Guard don't have a lot of benefits unless you shoehorn Mortarion into every list.
You're also still missing the point about the inconsistencies that have happened within the codex and Death Guard in general since last edition.
nintura wrote: Thousand Sons is not a competitive stand alone codex and certainly not a fair one for those who want to play the actual Legion Thousand Sons. .
It sounds to me that you want to play 30k Thousand Sons, not 40k Thousand Sons. After Ahriman cast the Rubric, every marine in the legion was either powerful enough to resist or was turned into a golem. For the former, you have the Exalted Sorcerers kit. For the latter, you have the Occult Termies and Rubric Marines. Anything beyond that is going to be either a traitor marine recruited recently or a slave from the Planet of Sorcerors. That's what the Thousand Sons looks like in the 42nd Millenium. You can always play 30k, though. It still seems to be pretty popular in most areas.
I mean, the new Tzaangors are gonna have to do something pretty special to stop me from taking Tzeentch Daemon detachments instead, to flesh out my Sons. They're shaping up very nicely. Flexible, great deepstrike, fast, good damage, everything the Sons have had trouble with...
Unit1126PLL wrote: Wait so what's the complaint here? Can someone sum it up for me?
Is it really that there aren't enough Rubric Marines in other slots to go with the Rubric Marine troops choices?
OP here.
For me personally its the fact that most of our army will consist of Tzaangors. Which is a break from lore and from the play of the army.
Thousand sons have always been a smaller Elite army which made use of SOME fodder units to tie up enemy units till the Rubrics finish off what the're dealing with.
Keep in mind this is not even addressing the dubious nature of releasing new models with certain abilities and then changeing the rules so they become almost useless and adding in another model to the army and making the army dependent on tgise units.
nintura wrote: Thousand Sons is not a competitive stand alone codex and certainly not a fair one for those who want to play the actual Legion Thousand Sons. .
It sounds to me that you want to play 30k Thousand Sons, not 40k Thousand Sons. After Ahriman cast the Rubric, every marine in the legion was either powerful enough to resist or was turned into a golem. For the former, you have the Exalted Sorcerers kit. For the latter, you have the Occult Termies and Rubric Marines. Anything beyond that is going to be either a traitor marine recruited recently or a slave from the Planet of Sorcerors. That's what the Thousand Sons looks like in the 42nd Millenium. You can always play 30k, though. It still seems to be pretty popular in most areas.
Tired of saying this but here we go again, 30k thousand sons are 40k thousand sons, but for whatever reason gw decided not to give thousand sons the most basic options they would still have, even after the rubric, there is zero fluff, model, or logical reason rubrics cannot fill the roles they were armed and equipped for in the legions list, the rubric did not turn every plasma gun into a Bolter, every lascannon into a rotary cannon, give thousand sons the basic options, then build from there.
For me personally its the fact that most of our army will consist of Tzaangors. Which is a break from lore and from the play of the army.
I recommend that you start writing your armylists yourself, instead of letting other people to write them for you, as you currently seem to be doing. That way you don't actually have to include any Tzaangors if you don't want to. I hope this helps!
Unit1126PLL wrote: Wait so what's the complaint here? Can someone sum it up for me?
Is it really that there aren't enough Rubric Marines in other slots to go with the Rubric Marine troops choices?
For me personally its the fact that most of our army will consist of Tzaangors. Which is a break from lore and from the play of the army.
Thousand sons have always been a smaller Elite army which made use of SOME fodder units to tie up enemy units till the Rubrics finish off what the're dealing with.
Keep in mind this is not even addressing the dubious nature of releasing new models with certain abilities and then changeing the rules so they become almost useless and adding in another model to the army and making the army dependent on tgise units.
Aside from GWs design decision I dont think we have any reason to worry about Rubrics, At their current points they are decent for what you get but with lack of tactics, strategems, Legion trait it makes sense why they are falling behind other units.
I have had overall good turn outs with Rubrics and basically always take 20 or more in a list. I dont know about you; but Ill be doing that almost every game with my Sons. They arent cripplingly expensive and usually do fairly well for me on the table.
Tzaangors also do fairly well, for 3 points more then a cultist they perform very well for me... I mean mine have (one more then one occasion) beaten characters to death while disrupting entire lines of infantry and vehicles. The T4/5++ is fairly decent for the price point, give them an instrument and some support and Its usually a decent unit (at least in my opinion)
I think rubrics and maybe gors are both a tiny bit expensive for what they are. Tzaangors compare poorly with most demonic troop choices, could probably go down to 6ppm and be fine. Rubrics could stand to lose a point as well.
Maybe what games workshop should do is Bork the psychic phase (Which they have failed to implement well for three editions in a row) and go back making psychic powers basically in game abilities. Then they could split up the sorcerers into a swath of canals and justify them by their occult type. Then you could have a fast attack unit that is particularly adept at using their psychic powers in hand to hand , a different occult unit in heavy support that uses their psychic as devastating shooting, and maybe elite support psykers who have powers to buff guys around them.
That's how I used to play my thousand sons before they had a codex btw. I have a bunch of modelled up sorcerers that I used as warp talons and obliterators and such saying they were drawing all that special power from the warp. Honestly I still play that way using csm black legion for my 1001 sons because the current TSons options are very limited and determining what you are supposed to use for data sheets let alone points is a nightmare worthy of tzeentch himself.
This is something I'm hoping to see, but suspect might not make it in this edition, exalted sorcerers with different auras based on their lore. Which would also require them to have different lores. Also for the default aura ability to maybe not be refilling invulnerable saves of 1 in an army where almost nothing have higher than a 5++ native, as that's barely going to make a difference.
You long-time 40k'ers have developed Stockholm Syndrome. All these years of GW neglect have warped your mind's.
There's nothing wrong with T-Sons players wanting a larger range.
Sort of on-topic, I'd really love to see a new Daemon prince model come out. Really each chaos god should get it's own model. The current model is so silly loooking.
Reading this thread actually convinced me to just add some Las Predators to my Death Guard for anti tank. Looking forward to facing some Ksons in the future!
I think the problem is, if they're going to release an army book for a subfaction, then they need more representation of that faction than 2-3 kits/squads/whatever. It goes for 1ksons, deathguard, *grey knights*, now custodes. As someone who used to play 1ksons, having only a few 1kson units in a dedicated list is just appalling. I won't even go into their effectiveness ppm.
As someone who also used to play blood angels, i wouldn't be happy if i bought the blood angels codex and there were only 2-3 bangel units in it. The rest were imperial guard, sisters, inquisition. Oh, they don't fight as a legion anymore, that was 10k years ago. Now they're integrated into the imperium. Even as i write this, i'm getting a lot of irony from the fact that 'soup' lists are now a thing.
All in all I think it was fruitless to expect new 1kson kits at this moment of time. Im guessing they did not sell like the recent focus of GW's efforts which are DG. Now while it is true that DG are new faction it is very nice for DG players that GW has released so much content for the faction in recent times.
I think we may get another go once better sellers have been exploited for maximum profit. And it comes down to sales. GW is not in this for the happiness of 1kson players.
In full disclosure I have a sizeable Thousand Sons army. And im not to thrilled we got no new kits. But I was not expecting anything new. On the bright side we are getting a full codex and I asked myself many times why the AoS tzaangor models were not ported over to the 1ksons. The only thing that seems out of place is the vortex beast. Perhaps that to will grow on me.
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Torga_DW wrote: I think the problem is, if they're going to release an army book for a subfaction, then they need more representation of that faction than 2-3 kits/squads/whatever. It goes for 1ksons, deathguard, *grey knights*, now custodes. As someone who used to play 1ksons, having only a few 1kson units in a dedicated list is just appalling. I won't even go into their effectiveness ppm.
As someone who also used to play blood angels, i wouldn't be happy if i bought the blood angels codex and there were only 2-3 bangel units in it. The rest were imperial guard, sisters, inquisition. Oh, they don't fight as a legion anymore, that was 10k years ago. Now they're integrated into the imperium. Even as i write this, i'm getting a lot of irony from the fact that 'soup' lists are now a thing.
I get what you are saying. But lets look at this a different way. If those three kits had sold well upon release you better bet we would be getting new kits. GW is a business. Honestly, Im happy we get a codex. Its 100% more than what we had last week.And new access to Tzaangors will no doubt make many happy (myself included). Perhaps instead of looking at things through spectacles of self identification we should look at the bigger picture. Now, lets hope the new codex is enough to sell models. If it does well we are that much closer to silver tower kits and rubric havocs.
hazefrog wrote: You long-time 40k'ers have developed Stockholm Syndrome. All these years of GW neglect have warped your mind's.
There's nothing wrong with T-Sons players wanting a larger range.
Except it's not really about wanting a larger range, it's about disliking the direction GW is going with the army as it expands the range, both for tsons and (it seems) the unique traitor legions as a whole.
Currently GW is focusing on the way the god specific traitor legions differ from their imperial equivalents and normal csm brethren, by playing up their usage of non marine elements. This means daemon engines, mutant rabble, and even daemons around a core of more elite marine units and HQs. It's an interesting idea and a departure from the previous style. Which means it is also getting pushback from some who want a more traditionally marine centric army. Personally I'm coming around on the idea myself, it is interesting and I think having such a variety makes the armies more fun.
I do think the DG codex had a better balance than the tsons codex appears to. A few more marine independent characters probably wouldn't have gone amiss. But I dont think the vision they have for tsons and the other god specific traitor legions is inherently bad, I think it'll grow on people over time.
Torga_DW wrote: I think the problem is, if they're going to release an army book for a subfaction, then they need more representation of that faction than 2-3 kits/squads/whatever. It goes for 1ksons, deathguard, *grey knights*, now custodes. As someone who used to play 1ksons, having only a few 1kson units in a dedicated list is just appalling. I won't even go into their effectiveness ppm.
As someone who also used to play blood angels, i wouldn't be happy if i bought the blood angels codex and there were only 2-3 bangel units in it. The rest were imperial guard, sisters, inquisition. Oh, they don't fight as a legion anymore, that was 10k years ago. Now they're integrated into the imperium. Even as i write this, i'm getting a lot of irony from the fact that 'soup' lists are now a thing.
I get what you are saying. But lets look at this a different way. If those three kits had sold well upon release you better bet we would be getting new kits. GW is a business. Honestly, Im happy we get a codex. Its 100% more than what we had last week.And new access to Tzaangors will no doubt make many happy (myself included). Perhaps instead of looking at things through spectacles of self identification we should look at the bigger picture. Now, lets hope the new codex is enough to sell models. If it does well we are that much closer to silver tower kits and rubric havocs.
I appreciate what you're saying. But i just had this discussion on another forum. I take the approach of the consumer: if you don't offer what i want, i don't give you money. Yes, maybe this is just 'testing the waters' for their next business venture, and success here will mean better things in the future. But i'm not a part of that. What they're offering *now*, is not something i'm prepared to spend money on. For a number of reasons, some of which apply to the army itself. Of which, primarily, the codex thousand sons has (technically) 3 thousand sons units in it. I've got a friend who throws money at every new computer game that comes out at full price, so i'm aware this is a potential customer base. But myself, i'm a little more critical of my spends. It's a bit like politics: its not the diehard core supporters you have to attract, it's the folk sitting in the middle trying to decide which way to jump. But having said that, this year seems to have been a very good year for gw.
Torga_DW wrote: I think the problem is, if they're going to release an army book for a subfaction, then they need more representation of that faction than 2-3 kits/squads/whatever. It goes for 1ksons, deathguard, *grey knights*, now custodes. As someone who used to play 1ksons, having only a few 1kson units in a dedicated list is just appalling. I won't even go into their effectiveness ppm.
As someone who also used to play blood angels, i wouldn't be happy if i bought the blood angels codex and there were only 2-3 bangel units in it. The rest were imperial guard, sisters, inquisition. Oh, they don't fight as a legion anymore, that was 10k years ago. Now they're integrated into the imperium. Even as i write this, i'm getting a lot of irony from the fact that 'soup' lists are now a thing.
I get what you are saying. But lets look at this a different way. If those three kits had sold well upon release you better bet we would be getting new kits. GW is a business. Honestly, Im happy we get a codex. Its 100% more than what we had last week.And new access to Tzaangors will no doubt make many happy (myself included). Perhaps instead of looking at things through spectacles of self identification we should look at the bigger picture. Now, lets hope the new codex is enough to sell models. If it does well we are that much closer to silver tower kits and rubric havocs.
I appreciate what you're saying. But i just had this discussion on another forum. I take the approach of the consumer: if you don't offer what i want, i don't give you money. Yes, maybe this is just 'testing the waters' for their next business venture, and success here will mean better things in the future. But i'm not a part of that. What they're offering *now*, is not something i'm prepared to spend money on. For a number of reasons, some of which apply to the army itself. Of which, primarily, the codex thousand sons has (technically) 3 thousand sons units in it. I've got a friend who throws money at every new computer game that comes out at full price, so i'm aware this is a potential customer base. But myself, i'm a little more critical of my spends. It's a bit like politics: its not the diehard core supporters you have to attract, it's the folk sitting in the middle trying to decide which way to jump. But having said that, this year seems to have been a very good year for gw.
you've also got a varity of vehicles etc.
1k sons have access to in their index (and we have no reason to assume this will be changed)
Sorcrers
Exaulted sorcs,
demon princes,
rubric marines
Sacarab occult terminators
Hellbrutes (if the mutated nature of them doesn't work for you buy a space marine dreadnought)
Rhinos
Vindicators,
predators,
land raiders
and more.
they have a pretty solid armory if you wanna do a "pure chaos marine" force
1k sons have access to in their index (and we have no reason to assume this will be changed)
Sorcrers
Exaulted sorcs,
demon princes,
rubric marines
Sacarab occult terminators
Hellbrutes (if the mutated nature of them doesn't work for you buy a space marine dreadnought)
Rhinos
Vindicators,
predators,
land raiders
and more.
they have a pretty solid armory if you wanna do a "pure chaos marine" force
But what if i want to do a "pure thousand sons marine" force? Then what? For a "pure thousand sons" codex, options are limited. Rubrics and scarabs. And 'sorcerors' as hq. There's a lot there i could go into, but i won't.
I mean, I get you don't really like how your army is being written, but tbf that's pretty much always been tsons fluff. They use lots of different forces and alternatives to compensate for the rubric fiasco, it severely limited what they can do with just their marines. Last edition was pretty much the exact same thing.
I can sympathize, but the question you just asked was kinda like asking "what if want a pure ogryn force", wondering why you can't have an ogryn sniper or something.
Which doesn't mean you can't do it, you can play only tson marines with no vehicles, auxiliaries or demons. It'll just struggle every bit as much as you'd expect if your army was entirely sorcerers and extremely limited suits of animated armor. It is an excellent translation of the fluff to the table top.
Yeah, but Tsons are a force, much like ultramarines or blood angels. Saying you shouldn't have many ultramarines or blood angels in a pure ultramarines or blood angels army is a bit off..... The best justification i can get to that is: death guard get it as well..... which doesn't seem right, either. It's not codex: imperial soup, it's codex: <insert imperial marine faction here>.
Why should the chaos factions bend over for it when the imperials don't?
edit: if we look at imperials, every unit in the list gets <chapter keyword> other than vehicles/tanks. Yet 1ksons (and yes, deathguard) get 1 troop, 1 elite and a hq unit. That's a pretty big difference in codex style.
Torga_DW wrote: Yeah, but Tsons are a force, much like ultramarines or blood angels. Saying you shouldn't have many ultramarines or blood angels in a pure ultramarines or blood angels army is a bit off..... The best justification i can get to that is: death guard get it as well..... which doesn't seem right, either. It's not codex: imperial soup, it's codex: <insert imperial marine faction here>.
Why should the chaos factions bend over for it when the imperials don't?[
edit: if we look at imperials, every unit in the list gets <chapter keyword> other than vehicles/tanks. Yet 1ksons (and yes, deathguard) get 1 troop, 1 elite and a hq unit. That's a pretty big difference in codex style.
But are the 40k thousand sons really comparable to ultramarines, or even a csm faction like black legion? Not really, that is what the whole rubric thing means really. They simply can't function as a pure legion of marines, the rubric of Ahriman robbed them of that. It is a big part of what defines them thematically. It may not be to everyone's taste, but it is very fitting for the tson lore that they draw more heavily on outside forces to succeed than a legion that didn't turn 99% of their marines into animated suits of armor incapable of independent thought.
I'd also point out that this is generally to our benefit mechanically, so it hardly seems reasonable to call it favoritism or anything similar.
As far as the keyword thing goes, I'm not sure what you mean. Every unit in DG codex beyond the actual daemons gains the deathguard keyword, even the daemon engines. Presumably the same will be true of tsons codex. If you are talking about chapter tactics, then presumably the tson tactic will apply to every no vehicle in their codex, just as it did for deathguard (admittedly some of our units don't benefit in any real way, or benefit competitively little).
SilverAlien wrote: But are the 40k thousand sons really comparable to ultramarines, or even a csm faction like black legion?
I would hope so? They're in the position they're in because GW put them there. I remember back in the day before the rubric even existed. Yes, i believe they are worthy of 'full faction' status.
SilverAlien wrote: Not really, that is what the whole rubric thing means really. They simply can't function as a pure legion of marines, the rubric of Ahriman robbed them of that. It is a big part of what defines them thematically. It may not be to everyone's taste, but it is very fitting for the tson lore that they draw more heavily on outside forces to succeed than a legion that didn't turn 99% of their marines into animated suits of armor incapable of independent thought.
As others have said previously, there's no reason those automated suits can't operate the heavy weapons or bikes they were operating previously. They're only now capable of operating boltguns/flamers. No offense, i just don't see that as 'fitting'. I see it as "lets release 3 kits and call it a faction like we've done before". I don't excuse it with other factions (admech, grey knights,gs cults, etc) and i don't excuse it with an army i actually liked/had.
SilverAlien wrote: I'd also point out that this is generally to our benefit mechanically, so it hardly seems reasonable to call it favoritism or anything similar.
How exactly is having 3 kits - 1 troop, 1 elite, and 1 hq - a mechanical benefit? Only those specified 3 kits actually receive 1k sons rules. I'm pretty sure no-one here is calling what they got 'favouritism'. Marines favouritism? Maybe. Eldar favouristism? Probably. 1ksons/deathguard favouritism? No, not really.
SilverAlien wrote: As far as the keyword thing goes, I'm not sure what you mean. Every unit in DG codex beyond the actual daemons gains the deathguard keyword, even the daemon engines. Presumably the same will be true of tsons codex. If you are talking about chapter tactics, then presumably the tson tactic will apply to every no vehicle in their codex, just as it did for deathguard (admittedly some of our units don't benefit in any real way, or benefit competitively little).
You're right, i was off with the <keyword>. What i meant, is that in a 1ksons list, only 3 units are actually 1ksons. Just like in deathguard only 3 units are actually deathguard. The rest may share the <keyword>, but they're not actually <chaos marine unit> units. Compare this with bangels (my first army). Every infantry unit is a bangel, with base stats + chapter affiliation. Tactical marines have the base <bangel> attributes. Whereas in 1ksons (or deathguard), less than a handful of units actually have the <legion> rules going for them. So you can have tzeentch (or nurgle) marines in a 1ksons (or deathguard) army..... they're not 1ksons (or deathguard). Whereas in an 'imperial marine' codex, every unit (aside from the vehicles apparently) are 'imperial marine' units. That is the problem i have with the new chaos 'mini dexes'.
Some people may not mind a 'pure' list that consists of 'soup', but i'm not one of them. Arguments and harsh words may arise because of that.
1k sons have access to in their index (and we have no reason to assume this will be changed)
Sorcrers
Exaulted sorcs,
demon princes,
rubric marines
Sacarab occult terminators
Hellbrutes (if the mutated nature of them doesn't work for you buy a space marine dreadnought)
Rhinos
Vindicators,
predators,
land raiders
and more.
they have a pretty solid armory if you wanna do a "pure chaos marine" force
But what if i want to do a "pure thousand sons marine" force? Then what? For a "pure thousand sons" codex, options are limited. Rubrics and scarabs. And 'sorcerors' as hq. There's a lot there i could go into, but i won't.
Why you think those vehicles are not Thousand Sons units?
As others have said previously, there's no reason those automated suits can't operate the heavy weapons or bikes they were operating previously. They're only now capable of operating boltguns/flamers. No offense, i just don't see that as 'fitting'. I see it as "lets release 3 kits and call it a faction like we've done before". I don't excuse it with other factions (admech, grey knights,gs cults, etc) and i don't excuse it with an army i actually liked/had.
So let me guess, you are mostly a 30k player? Because it honestly sounds like you don't know much behind the Tsons 40k lore. Yes, they cannot operate bikes because they are in a state that's clearly not lucid, basically in a dreamlike state that has to be directed by the Sorcerers (Old rules had penalties for the squad if the Sorcerer died as a result) .. Things that cannot be done when driven at Bike or Disc Speeds because the Sorcerer would need to be able to properly command them and direct them while dealing with thing. They also cannot really operate anything beyond bolters unless it's modeled into their suit which is why they can use heavy weapons in a Terminator suit because they can feel it apart of their body. The flamers are new though so I feel they might be flexible with changing out weaponry, but it seems like they want to keep Rubrics in that sort of psuedo anti-infantry state.
In their first incarnation they used Tzaangors and the like to makeup for their rubrics limited nature and had massive slaves to help fight in combat, entire warbands full of non-rubrics being led by Sorcerers.. In 3.5 the next time they were seen they were still unable to use Bikers, Raptors, or Havocs and relied entirely upon vehicles, sorcerers, and terminators for heavy weaponry..
It's honestly like people who are discussing this don't actually know their armies lore going in here. Because a lot of these have been around for ages by now.
Why you think those vehicles are not Thousand Sons units?
Those 'vehicles' aren't imperial marine units, why would they be 1ksons units? Do they get 1ksons rules? I'll skip to the boring part and answer my own question - no. Out of interest, why did you focus on 'vehicles' as thousand son units? Like i said, they get 1 troop, 1 elite and 1 hq unit as "thousand sons". Out of a whole codex. You know what? It may just be me. It frequently is. But i think that's appalling for a 'dedicated' codex. That's less than grey knights, and *they* have issues. You want to field 1ksons marines? Well have some tzaangors that were transferred from AoS. That's close enough..... no? No.
ZebioLizard2 wrote:
So let me guess, you are mostly a 30k player? Because it honestly sounds like you don't know much behind the Tsons 40k lore. Yes, they cannot operate bikes because they are in a state that's clearly not lucid, basically in a dreamlike state that has to be directed by the Sorcerers (Old rules had penalties for the squad if the Sorcerer died as a result) .. Things that cannot be done when driven at Bike or Disc Speeds because the Sorcerer would need to be able to properly command them and direct them while dealing with thing. They also cannot really operate anything beyond bolters unless it's modeled into their suit which is why they can use heavy weapons in a Terminator suit because they can feel it apart of their body. The flamers are new though so I feel they might be flexible with changing out weaponry, but it seems like they want to keep Rubrics in that sort of psuedo anti-infantry state.
In their first incarnation they used Tzaangors and the like to makeup for their rubrics limited nature and had massive slaves to help fight in combat, entire warbands full of non-rubrics being led by Sorcerers.. In 3.5 the next time they were seen they were still unable to use Bikers, Raptors, or Havocs and relied entirely upon vehicles, sorcerers, and terminators for heavy weaponry..
It's honestly like people who are discussing this don't actually know their armies lore going in here. Because a lot of these have been around for ages by now.
I was following the 1ksons lore *before* they had the rubric. They used to be just a chaos army that had a lot of psykers, to the point that most of them were psykers. Angry, bitter veterans that were the masters of magic. Yes, in 1st edition there was a big mish-mash, and god-specific beastmen existed. And until they popped up in age of sigmar for tzeentch, they remained dead in the 40k universe. Hell, imperial guard used to have beastmen regiments. Yes, i've followed their degeneration over the years. In 3.5 they didn't have tzaangors, and bloodletters had a 3+ loincloth armour save compared to the rest of the daemons. This seems to have culminated in some people being happy with them having 1 troop, 1 elite and 1 hq choice to justify them as unique. Do i think that's right, in any way shape or form? No. Opinions may obviously differ. But as far as the topic goes, i'm inclined to agree with the OP. *Thousand sons* are dead. But we're all entitled to disagree.
Those 'vehicles' aren't imperial marine units, why would they be 1ksons units? Do they get 1ksons rules? I'll skip to the boring part and answer my own question - no. Out of interest, why did you focus on 'vehicles' as thousand son units?
I really have no idea what you're talking about. Yes, marine vehicles are marine units. Only Dreadnoughts (Helbrutes) get chapter tactics though.
Those 'vehicles' aren't imperial marine units, why would they be 1ksons units? Do they get 1ksons rules? I'll skip to the boring part and answer my own question - no. Out of interest, why did you focus on 'vehicles' as thousand son units?
I really have no idea what you're talking about. Yes, marine vehicles are marine units. Only Dreadnoughts (Helbrutes) get chapter tactics though.
Out of interest, look at the <chapter> rules. Like you say, the <infantry> and the <dreadnoughts> (<helbrutes> get the <chapter>/<legion> specific rules. Rhinos, predators, landraiders - they're all "generic".
Only the 1ksons don't get <helbrute> rules. So the 1ksons 'rules' are limited to - 1 troop, 1 elite and 1 hq. Any other 'imperial marine' codex gets an individual set of rules for *all* their infantry. 1ksons get 1 troop, 1 elite and 1 hq.
I feel like i'm arguing here (and to be fair, i am angry and drunk lol), but i come to the forums to have a 'discussion'. Why exactly do you associate vehicles with a particular marine army? Given that in this case, they have a lesser subset? The thing i can't get past, and forgive me if i'm missing the 'bigger picture', is that the army has exactly 1 troop, 1 elite and 1 hq to make it distinct? As a former bangels player, i had an entire codex (at various points) worth of infantry all with unique 'bangels' rules. But in this case? There's 1 troop, 1 elite and 1 hq worth of 'chapter specific' units. There's no 1ksons devastators or bikers or assault marines. Where i'm approaching this from: it just seems like a cheap cash grab, and not a 'serious' attempt at a codex. When they don't compare favourably to an arguably redundant imperial codex? To me, that's a problem.
I want to get 'drawn in'. I want to want to buy them. But what i'm seeing is less than the grey knights got. And at this point, its very arguable if the grey knights deserve a codex of their own (sorry grey knights players, i feel your pain). This just seems like codex: tzeentch armies we've released for 40k and AoS in the last couple of years. As a fan of thousand sons? I find that offensive. I've said it multiple times in my post and i think it's worth saying again: the 'actual' thousand sons units in the codex are: 1 troop, 1 elite and 1 hq. That just strikes me as wrong.
Out of interest, look at the <chapter> rules. Like you say, the <infantry> and the <dreadnoughts> (<helbrutes> get the <chapter>/<legion> specific rules. Rhinos, predators, landraiders - they're all "generic".
So what? That's same for everybody. Ultramarine Predator is still an Ultramarine unit.
Only the 1ksons don't get <helbrute> rules.
Yes they do. If it it is for some reason omitted in the codex (which I doubt) it's still in the index.
And you're right, they have less space marine units than many other chapters/legions (though you bizarrely keep ignoring units that they have.) Big part of that is based on their fluff. They've got servants to compensate for that.
So Tzaangors don't count for that? They get the Thousand Sons keyword and all. I play Slaanesh though, you've gotten far more then I have both Daemon and Thousand Sons wise.
Reading through this entire thread, it seems like some people just want Thousand sons to have everything Chaos Space Marines have, but more on top of that.
So, what...is that what was supposed to happen with the other three Cult legions, too? Just make them a reason to never play vanilla Chaos Marines, because each cult codex would be able to do everything the vanilla codex can, but also their unique awesome stuff, too?
I know I have been throwing around the idea for months now of building a skirmish force of Thousand Sons in games of One Page 40k (Or Grimdark Future, as it's named now) using a Thousand Sons kit and a box of Zaangors, to have a Sorcerer leading a few Rubric Marines with Zaangors performing the role of Cultists for other legions. Probably would have included some of the other Zaangor options even before this Codex announced them, as it just seems fitting.
Out of interest, look at the <chapter> rules. Like you say, the <infantry> and the <dreadnoughts> (<helbrutes> get the <chapter>/<legion> specific rules. Rhinos, predators, landraiders - they're all "generic".
So what? That's same for everybody. Ultramarine Predator is still an Ultramarine unit.
But ultramarines have *more* non-vehicle units than just 1 troop, 1 elite and 1 hq. A lot more. A full codex more. This is my problem.
Yes they do. If it it is for some reason omitted in the codex (which I doubt) it's still in the index.
And you're right, they have less space marine units than many other chapters/legions (though you bizarrely keep ignoring units that they have.) Big part of that is based on their fluff. They've got servants to compensate for that.
Well, i won't go into the index issue. But the guys who write the codex write the fluff..... we only have 3 units that are actually 1ksons? Well the fluff is there's only now 3 units that are actually 1ksons. Everyone else in the list exists to serve the 3 units out of however many that make up a codex.
I guess it's just a fundamental perspective issue. You seem to be fine with it. Fair enough. I'm not. I don't buy from GW, and i'm not likely to at this rate. That's just my demographic, i guess.
These guys just dont get it. They are looking at the codex literally. They see Tzaangors and see they have Thousand Sons. That's not what we are getting at. Those are NOT Thousand Sons. Those are beastmen with Thousand Sons rules.
nintura wrote: These guys just dont get it. They are looking at the codex literally. They see Tzaangors and see they have Thousand Sons. That's not what we are getting at. Those are NOT Thousand Sons. Those are beastmen with Thousand Sons rules.
I get that. But marine vehicles in the codex are actually Thousand Sons exactly as much as Ultramarine vehicles are actually Ultramarines.
So? Then that mean in the new codex that Thousand Sons warbands can field special beastmen that other legions do not have access to. It would make sense to include them in the Thousand Sons codex. Same as how Poxwalkers are not Death Guard marines, but are in that codex. Things have changed for the Cult Legions over 10k years to make them different from their 30k iterations, thats the point.
Its not like Deathguard have Assault Marines, or Khorne would have Devastators.
AegisGrimm wrote: So? Then that mean in the new codex that Thousand Sons warbands can field special beastmen that other legions do not have access to. It would make sense to include them in the Thousand Sons codex. Same as how Poxwalkers are not Death Guard marines, but are in that codex.
To continue the above quote..... But? They're not thousand sons. They're beastmen with codex rules. Yes, poxwalkers are in deathguard codex, but...... they're not deathguard. I'm capable of seeing *beyond* my particular codex. Look at the people who have made death guard complaints? I think they're valid. It's the same thing - a codex with 1 troop, 1 elite and 1 hq. Hell, grey knights have 'more' technically, but i still think they're lacking. 1ksons codex should be about 1ksons, not 'lesser soup' units contained inside a codex extraneous of 'actual' soup. I keep saying this, 1ksons have 1 troop, 1 elite and 1 hq. That does not a codex make, at least not by existing standards (and lately those standards have been relaxed some).
nintura wrote: These guys just dont get it. They are looking at the codex literally. They see Tzaangors and see they have Thousand Sons. That's not what we are getting at. Those are NOT Thousand Sons. Those are beastmen with Thousand Sons rules.
I get that. But marine vehicles in the codex are actually Thousand Sons exactly as much as Ultramarine vehicles are actually Ultramarines.
And how many different infantry, bike, etc units of Ultramarines are there? 20? 25? Thousand Sons has 3.
And how many different infantry, bike, etc units of Ultramarines are there? 20? 25? Thousand Sons has 3.
Then play Ultramarines! If you don't like the fact that TS are golems with very limited intelligence led by sorcerers and employing servants, then it is a wrong army for you.
I didn't think I'd ever see any other faction whine as much as Sisters do but god damn Thousand Sons players have stolen the crown. Got a Primarch, beautiful new models, and a codex coming soon, but you'd think Games Workshop slaughtered their first born children because, "IT'S NOT ENOUGH!!!"
As others have said previously, there's no reason those automated suits can't operate the heavy weapons or bikes they were operating previously. They're only now capable of operating boltguns/flamers. No offense, i just don't see that as 'fitting'. I see it as "lets release 3 kits and call it a faction like we've done before". I don't excuse it with other factions (admech, grey knights,gs cults, etc) and i don't excuse it with an army i actually liked/had.
So let me guess, you are mostly a 30k player? Because it honestly sounds like you don't know much behind the Tsons 40k lore. Yes, they cannot operate bikes because they are in a state that's clearly not lucid, basically in a dreamlike state that has to be directed by the Sorcerers (Old rules had penalties for the squad if the Sorcerer died as a result) .. Things that cannot be done when driven at Bike or Disc Speeds because the Sorcerer would need to be able to properly command them and direct them while dealing with thing. They also cannot really operate anything beyond bolters unless it's modeled into their suit which is why they can use heavy weapons in a Terminator suit because they can feel it apart of their body. The flamers are new though so I feel they might be flexible with changing out weaponry, but it seems like they want to keep Rubrics in that sort of psuedo anti-infantry state.
In their first incarnation they used Tzaangors and the like to makeup for their rubrics limited nature and had massive slaves to help fight in combat, entire warbands full of non-rubrics being led by Sorcerers.. In 3.5 the next time they were seen they were still unable to use Bikers, Raptors, or Havocs and relied entirely upon vehicles, sorcerers, and terminators for heavy weaponry..
It's honestly like people who are discussing this don't actually know their armies lore going in here. Because a lot of these have been around for ages by now.
Yep they cant have bikes, discs etc. but they CAN have heavy weapons, special weapons etc. it is a straight weapon swap, now if you are saying that they can only have the weapons they had when the rubric hit, then explain to us where the legion era weapons, autocannons, lascannons etc. if it can only be weapons "modeled on there suit"
I always assumed it was because Rubric Automatons have so little consciousness left they cannot pick out specific valuable targets as Devastators, nor do they have the battlefield initiative to act as assault squads. They simply advance and lay down a fullisade of bolter or flamer fire, which the rotary cannon (can't remember the name) also functions as. It's all the Sorcerers equip them with.
There's no Grimdark tragedy in the Rubric if it didn't do anything bad to the marines other than cure their mutations and leave them as fully capable as the other legions. They are walking boltguns. It was a Phyrric victory.
andysonic1 wrote: I didn't think I'd ever see any other faction whine as much as Sisters do but god damn Thousand Sons players have stolen the crown. Got a Primarch, beautiful new models, and a codex coming soon, but you'd think Games Workshop slaughtered their first born children because, "IT'S NOT ENOUGH!!!"
No, they are a vocal minority. I am a 1kson player and im quite happy about the codex drop + tzaangors. Sure I would like to see the rubric concept expanded upon but Im not holding my breath for a variety of reasons.
AegisGrimm wrote: I always assumed it was because Rubric Automatons have so little consciousness left they cannot pick out specific valuable targets as Devastators, nor do they have the battlefield initiative to act as assault squads. They simply advance and lay down a fullisade of bolter or flamer fire, which the rotary cannon (can't remember the name) also functions as. It's all the Sorcerers equip them with.
There's no Grimdark tragedy in the Rubric if it didn't do anything bad to the marines other than cure their mutations and leave them as fully capable as the other legions. They are walking boltguns. It was a Phyrric victory.
I agree they dont have the iniciative to be assault marines etc. but they still have the equipment and ability to have assault troops, just not the jet packs, as for being able to pick out targets, if you can hit an enemy taking cover, ducking and weaving as soldiers are trained to do, you can hit a tank.
So as I said before, the new codex really does need to explain why the sorcerers are so stupid that they have somehow forgotten there training, decided not to equip the rubrics properly etc.
Otherwise its GW's no model no rules policy and it can suck the fat one lol, because the fluff doesnt support the inconsistancy in the fluff right now.
As others have said previously, there's no reason those automated suits can't operate the heavy weapons or bikes they were operating previously. They're only now capable of operating boltguns/flamers. No offense, i just don't see that as 'fitting'. I see it as "lets release 3 kits and call it a faction like we've done before". I don't excuse it with other factions (admech, grey knights,gs cults, etc) and i don't excuse it with an army i actually liked/had.
So let me guess, you are mostly a 30k player? Because it honestly sounds like you don't know much behind the Tsons 40k lore. Yes, they cannot operate bikes because they are in a state that's clearly not lucid, basically in a dreamlike state that has to be directed by the Sorcerers (Old rules had penalties for the squad if the Sorcerer died as a result) .. Things that cannot be done when driven at Bike or Disc Speeds because the Sorcerer would need to be able to properly command them and direct them while dealing with thing. They also cannot really operate anything beyond bolters unless it's modeled into their suit which is why they can use heavy weapons in a Terminator suit because they can feel it apart of their body. The flamers are new though so I feel they might be flexible with changing out weaponry, but it seems like they want to keep Rubrics in that sort of psuedo anti-infantry state.
In their first incarnation they used Tzaangors and the like to makeup for their rubrics limited nature and had massive slaves to help fight in combat, entire warbands full of non-rubrics being led by Sorcerers.. In 3.5 the next time they were seen they were still unable to use Bikers, Raptors, or Havocs and relied entirely upon vehicles, sorcerers, and terminators for heavy weaponry..
It's honestly like people who are discussing this don't actually know their armies lore going in here. Because a lot of these have been around for ages by now.
Yep they cant have bikes, discs etc. but they CAN have heavy weapons, special weapons etc. it is a straight weapon swap, now if you are saying that they can only have the weapons they had when the rubric hit, then explain to us where the legion era weapons, autocannons, lascannons etc. if it can only be weapons "modeled on there suit"
I'm saying that's how they've always been done in the rules when Thousand Sons were given rules. They've specifically made it so that they could not take anything but the specialized inferno bolters given power by the Sorcerers. It's ALWAYS been like this, this is not new codex fluff rules. This is something that's been around since.. Well, Rogue Trader.
Otherwise its GW's no model no rules policy and it can suck the fat one lol, because the fluff doesnt support the inconsistancy in the fluff right now.
AegisGrimm wrote: I always assumed it was because Rubric Automatons have so little consciousness left they cannot pick out specific valuable targets as Devastators, nor do they have the battlefield initiative to act as assault squads. They simply advance and lay down a fullisade of bolter or flamer fire, which the rotary cannon (can't remember the name) also functions as. It's all the Sorcerers equip them with.
There's no Grimdark tragedy in the Rubric if it didn't do anything bad to the marines other than cure their mutations and leave them as fully capable as the other legions. They are walking boltguns. It was a Phyrric victory.
And this. The rubric was not a blessing. It has very real unintended backdraws with thankfully a few blessings to balance it out. It was a spell gone haywire. What you see is a unintended result of the rubric failing. They could never survive as a legion if they just had rubrics. They have to rely on tzaangors and other slaves/hirelings/henchmen to fill the roles now left empty.
However I do not blame the players who bought into the rubric porn GW has been pushing for years. And its what im hoping the codex fixes.
andysonic1 wrote: I didn't think I'd ever see any other faction whine as much as Sisters do but god damn Thousand Sons players have stolen the crown. Got a Primarch, beautiful new models, and a codex coming soon, but you'd think Games Workshop slaughtered their first born children because, "IT'S NOT ENOUGH!!!"
No, they are a vocal minority. I am a 1kson player and im quite happy about the codex drop + tzaangors. Sure I would like to see the rubric concept expanded upon but Im not holding my breath for a variety of reasons.
All i have been asking for the UNIT ENTRIES, just making sure thats mega clear, so I can convert my Tsons myself and use that expanded list, that would make the 1 kit available for Tsons fill a lot of different roles, as I have said all along, give us the basics then expand from there.
Been doing some more reading on here and read some interesting posts.
To Address some things people have said:
"Rubrics are limited in thier capabilities"
Yes, but they can still point guns and pull triggers. So a heavy weapons squad is doable.
So lets see if I can come up with a system which would cover most of the needs of an army.
First, we pick a bonus for each of the Cults, all 5 nothing crazy, we can even all them boni since we like to use latin for everything. Each detachment can pick 1 and they get the bonus associated with the Cult. We also would have a spell list for each Cult only 3 spells each but thematic. You also have access to the Tzeentch list as well.
Next, pull the AS out of the Rubric squad give him an extra wound adjust the points accordingly, give him a 3" aura which has the followimg effect: When ever you perils with your smite spell, roll a d6 on a 3+ the enegries are channeled into a nearby Rubric which has been rendered inoperable and restores it to life, if you fail the roll or there are no dead rubrics near by you suffer perils as normal. Make him a Character and an Elites choice.
Next up is heavy support, watch this, 3 man squad of SOT which can all take one of the following missle racks or flamers or cannons.
HQ guess what? Yank that SOT from the Squad make him an HQ give him 3-4 wounds adds a +1 to the AS aura ability.
FA same as they did add Tzaangor disk riders.
Oh and lastly get rid of that stupid invul save and give them the same bonus Salamanders have.
It really does seem like most just want Spikey Marines without caring for the fluff background. Something I'm glad they moved away from when it came from the old 4th codex.
Because nobody seems to be telling me where the new fluff inconsistency comes from given that Rubrics never really had heavy weaponry.
Then if you're convinced golems can't do things, then give us Aspiring Sorc led heavy weapons like Thunderfires for example. Or Sorc lead Rubric Heavy weapon squads. Jesus, it's not hard.
Torga_DW wrote: I think the problem is, if they're going to release an army book for a subfaction, then they need more representation of that faction than 2-3 kits/squads/whatever. It goes for 1ksons, deathguard, *grey knights*, now custodes. As someone who used to play 1ksons, having only a few 1kson units in a dedicated list is just appalling. I won't even go into their effectiveness ppm.
As someone who also used to play blood angels, i wouldn't be happy if i bought the blood angels codex and there were only 2-3 bangel units in it. The rest were imperial guard, sisters, inquisition. Oh, they don't fight as a legion anymore, that was 10k years ago. Now they're integrated into the imperium. Even as i write this, i'm getting a lot of irony from the fact that 'soup' lists are now a thing.
I'm so glad you brought up BA, because the vast majority of units in that book are not unique to them.
nintura wrote: Then if you're convinced golems can't do things, then give us Aspiring Sorc led heavy weapons like Thunderfires for example. Or Sorc lead Rubric Heavy weapon squads. Jesus, it's not hard.
Convinced.. Yes, because the fluff.. You know what rather then just deal with that, let's get a bit inventive then rather then "Rubric's with heavy weapons" How about an Aspiring Sorcerer Squad that fires off heavy doombolts by channeling together in one Psychic Choir of destruction, they have several modes of fire from calling down fires from Tzeentch himself in an artillery, to a channeled beam that tears a line through everything it hits, growing weaker with each thing hit but being really destructive to armor.
Unless the goal really is "Lets just use golems as an equivalent to every other marine faction"
I'm fine with that! Anything as long as it's really Thousand Sons, veterans of the long war against the imperium. Anything that does something like that is fine! Thousand Sons dreads, hell I'd be fine with models from CSM as long as they had upgrades that let them look the part and had the rules to follow suit. A psyker dread would be great! But the only option is from Forge World which not everyone lets you play with.
Yeah that's fair, I do actually believe they should have a dread type. Knowing Tsons it's probably made of crystals and somehow amplifies the power of the Sorcerer inside and they're halfway insane because of the power surge.
Dreads are pretty universal, and it'd be interesting to see like.. A rubric dread that isn't your standard dreadnought, but like an enhanced huge power armored monster built with several souls controlling it at once, letting it field some interesting weaponry.
andysonic1 wrote: I didn't think I'd ever see any other faction whine as much as Sisters do but god damn Thousand Sons players have stolen the crown. Got a Primarch, beautiful new models, and a codex coming soon, but you'd think Games Workshop slaughtered their first born children because, "IT'S NOT ENOUGH!!!"
Yes thats what it is not enough. Did you even read the OP?
And lets be clear OUR Primarch works best with a Daemon army. Hes a big red bitch and always will be.
No one is complaining about Rubrics and SOT so why bring that up?
This has nothing to do with not enough, it is about my thousand sons army have 500 points of thousand sons and 1500 points of random bs.
andysonic1 wrote: I didn't think I'd ever see any other faction whine as much as Sisters do but god damn Thousand Sons players have stolen the crown. Got a Primarch, beautiful new models, and a codex coming soon, but you'd think Games Workshop slaughtered their first born children because, "IT'S NOT ENOUGH!!!"
Yes thats what it is not enough. Did you even read the OP?
And lets be clear OUR Primarch works best with a Daemon army. Hes a big red bitch and always will be.
No one is complaining about Rubrics and SOT so why bring that up?
This has nothing to do with not enough, it is about my thousand sons army have 500 points of thousand sons and 1500 points of random bs.
Your army can be 2000 points of Thousand Sons if you want it to. No one is making you take Tzaangors etc.
And if your response is 'you have to to be competitive', at least wait for the book to be released, because we have no idea if thats true or not at this point.
andysonic1 wrote: I didn't think I'd ever see any other faction whine as much as Sisters do but god damn Thousand Sons players have stolen the crown. Got a Primarch, beautiful new models, and a codex coming soon, but you'd think Games Workshop slaughtered their first born children because, "IT'S NOT ENOUGH!!!"
Yes thats what it is not enough. Did you even read the OP?
And lets be clear OUR Primarch works best with a Daemon army. Hes a big red bitch and always will be.
No one is complaining about Rubrics and SOT so why bring that up?
This has nothing to do with not enough, it is about my thousand sons army have 500 points of thousand sons and 1500 points of random bs.
Your army can be 2000 points of Thousand Sons if you want it to. No one is making you take Tzaangors etc.
And if your response is 'you have to to be competitive', at least wait for the book to be released, because we have no idea if thats true or not at this point.
Sure. Ok. Lets look at this then. An all Rubric/Occult army. Ok, I rapid fire my bolters except I'm slower than you so you get the charge, so I'll stay outside of rapid fire range. Either way, I'll fire my bolters. Maybe my warp flamers. Welp, that squads done. NExt squad. Lets fire bolters. Next squad. Fire more bolters. Next squad. Fire more bolters.
Smite? Nah, if I fudge it, i'll blow up 2-4 models because I have 1 wound. And each one gets harder. Other spells? Sorry, dont have any more. Let's just repeat this. For. Every. Single. Game. Ever.
andysonic1 wrote: I didn't think I'd ever see any other faction whine as much as Sisters do but god damn Thousand Sons players have stolen the crown. Got a Primarch, beautiful new models, and a codex coming soon, but you'd think Games Workshop slaughtered their first born children because, "IT'S NOT ENOUGH!!!"
No, they are a vocal minority. I am a 1kson player and im quite happy about the codex drop + tzaangors. Sure I would like to see the rubric concept expanded upon but Im not holding my breath for a variety of reasons.
All i have been asking for the UNIT ENTRIES, just making sure thats mega clear, so I can convert my Tsons myself and use that expanded list, that would make the 1 kit available for Tsons fill a lot of different roles, as I have said all along, give us the basics then expand from there.
I get what you are saying. But sadly GW has a strict No model No rules stance, thanks to chapter approved debacle. You have full right to complain about it since it has a negative effect on you. This is not going to change.
andysonic1 wrote: I didn't think I'd ever see any other faction whine as much as Sisters do but god damn Thousand Sons players have stolen the crown. Got a Primarch, beautiful new models, and a codex coming soon, but you'd think Games Workshop slaughtered their first born children because, "IT'S NOT ENOUGH!!!"
Yes thats what it is not enough. Did you even read the OP?
And lets be clear OUR Primarch works best with a Daemon army. Hes a big red bitch and always will be.
No one is complaining about Rubrics and SOT so why bring that up?
This has nothing to do with not enough, it is about my thousand sons army have 500 points of thousand sons and 1500 points of random bs.
Your army can be 2000 points of Thousand Sons if you want it to. No one is making you take Tzaangors etc.
And if your response is 'you have to to be competitive', at least wait for the book to be released, because we have no idea if thats true or not at this point.
Sure. Ok. Lets look at this then. An all Rubric/Occult army. Ok, I rapid fire my bolters except I'm slower than you so you get the charge, so I'll stay outside of rapid fire range. Either way, I'll fire my bolters. Maybe my warp flamers. Welp, that squads done. NExt squad. Lets fire bolters. Next squad. Fire more bolters. Next squad. Fire more bolters.
Smite? Nah, if I fudge it, i'll blow up 2-4 models because I have 1 wound. And each one gets harder. Other spells? Sorry, dont have any more. Let's just repeat this. For. Every. Single. Game. Ever.
Guess how long people will play that army.
Smite nerf is still in beta. It is not a forgone conclusion. Im actually willing to bet it does not see the light of day in its current form because it breaks as much as it fixs. Im betting they come to this idea and make it so that smite scales in difficulty per model instead of global. So why is it that everyone is acting like like the nerf is in stone when it is clearly not?
Your army can be 2000 points of Thousand Sons if you want it to. No one is making you take Tzaangors etc.
And if your response is 'you have to to be competitive', at least wait for the book to be released, because we have no idea if thats true or not at this point.
This is not about competitiveness, its about having any chance of winning a game at all. If I have 6 units of Rubrics and 2 units of SOT thats over 1k in points but the Sorcs in those squads will be useless now.
I don't need the book to know what holes we have in the army and that we are not getting any variations on rubric marines. Which means all the holes im filling now with CSM units will be filled with Tzaangor units instead. So im going to have 100 Tzzangors and either 20 Rubrics or 10 SOT. Thats a 5 to 1 ratio how is that a CSM army?
ZebioLizard2 wrote: It really does seem like most just want Spikey Marines without caring for the fluff background. Something I'm glad they moved away from when it came from the old 4th codex.
Because nobody seems to be telling me where the new fluff inconsistency comes from given that Rubrics never really had heavy weaponry.
If you know the fluff as well as you claimed, you would know, plus I have said several times on here, but again I will spell it out.
Thousand sons legion has access to the ENTIRE legion army list, which means they had the full gambit of weapons and options in there legion, this includes non psychic Praetors, veterans etc.
The Wolves attack Prospero and destroy an unknown number of the legion, likely a large part of it though, Magnus transports the entire legions from Prospero to the planet of the sorcerers.
so we know that the legion by this point has lost a lot of kit, weapons and personel.
The legion spends an unknown amount of time on the POTS, both hundreds of years and a very short amount of time, Amon spends hundreds of years just searching for one shard of Magnus, we will assume more personel and equipment are lost at this point.
then we have the siege of terra, and guess what, even more loss of personel and equipment, after which they retreat to the POTS, then we have the Rubric around this time, so even with the loss of material and personel we still have whole units of Legion era equipped TSons.
Rubric Hits, the Tson that are not psykers are turned to dust, this is drivers, heavy weapon troopers, special weapon troopers, elite Tsons with unique equipment like power fists etc. Praetors, Chaplains, Champions etc. etc. all reduced to Rubricai, and then.............................................................................
These sorcerors are like "nah lads, we dont want you to keep those power weapons, and split up to match the codex spess mureens unit make up, we dont want Havocs with heavy weapons on each guy, we dont want a fire support team for our rubrics, so just match what the sons of Guilliman are doing, 1 special and 1 heavy, per 5 of you!!!!!"
"Also forget all the powers you mastered during the crusade, you wont need them, instead you can use these new powers and fire mind bullets!!!!"
"we also need to update our kit so it looks cool, so lets make some new ammunition, but dont make anything else, at all, dont bother bartering for those tried and tested weapons we have lying around everywhere but have decided not to use!"
Jokes aside, THAT is the Tsons fluff, its inconsistent and doesnt make sense, there is not a single fluff reason why Rubrics cannot be put into other slots to flesh out the army, I can see no raptors, bikes etc. but not a single reason why we cant have a Standard bearer, special weapon squads, heavy weapon squads etc.
GW has never been able to get Tzeench right or Tsons, so the historical lack of Heavy weapons is there continued lack of imagination and knowledge of there own fluff.
Table wrote: Smite nerf is still in beta. It is not a forgone conclusion. Im actually willing to bet it does not see the light of day in its current form because it breaks as much as it fixs. Im betting they come to this idea and make it so that smite scales in difficulty per model instead of global. So why is it that everyone is acting like like the nerf is in stone when it is clearly not?
It is in stone they just haven't announced it yet. I am will to bet you when the TS Codex drops they make it an offical rule.
It has already seen the light of day, we know about it right? They know exactly what they are doing. Do you honestly think they didn't think about TS and GK when that rule was pitched? They did and they concluded it would be best to let the community decide on whether it was a fair rule. Which is something they do all the time...
This gives people time to test the rule. By all means go run 1 game as TS and bring mostly Rubricae, see what happens. You will lose, hell even 3 Sorcs means your looking at a -2 on your 3 cast of smite. But once the Codex drops we will have enough spells to cast so no reason to make TS immune. Now AS and SOTS are non-psyker Psykers. So you bring 1 maxed out squad, and fill the rest of your army with Tzzangors with Icons of flame. Same effect less drawbacks.
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nintura wrote: Id rather have different spells in my Aspiring Sorcs (Why are they Aspiring? and why do they know less than GK psyker sergeants?)
GK dont have Psyker Sgts. They have units of Psykers, the enitre squad are psykers.
Do we know whether the TS smite will change in the new codex? If the beta rules become real rules then maybe the new TS and GK will get new psychic rules: maybe they will get a proper version of smite rather than the nerfed one, maybe they'll get a different power, maybe TS legion tactics will counter the smite nerf. I wouldn't panic yet until the TS rules start getting leaked.
The GK squad leaders have smite lite plus one chosen power. We have Aspiring Sorcs in the strongest psyker army in the game and we get smite lite.
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mrhappyface wrote: Do we know whether the TS smite will change in the new codex? If the beta rules become real rules then maybe the new TS and GK will get new psychic rules: maybe they will get a proper version of smite rather than the nerfed one, maybe they'll get a different power, maybe TS legion tactics will counter the smite nerf. I wouldn't panic yet until the TS rules start getting leaked.
$10 says the rule will change with the 1K Sons codex and become official shortly after, 1k Sons will not be changed and will be forced to use this version of Smite. Gray Knights will get their dex and they'll either get a replacement for Smite or they'll play by a different rule for Smite.
mrhappyface wrote: Do we know whether the TS smite will change in the new codex? If the beta rules become real rules then maybe the new TS and GK will get new psychic rules: maybe they will get a proper version of smite rather than the nerfed one, maybe they'll get a different power, maybe TS legion tactics will counter the smite nerf. I wouldn't panic yet until the TS rules start getting leaked.
$10 says the rule will change with the 1K Sons codex and become official shortly after, 1k Sons will not be changed and will be forced to use this version of Smite. Gray Knights will get their dex and they'll either get a replacement for Smite or they'll play by a different rule for Smite.
Probably, but we'll complain when that is confirmed; all this is is pre-emptive whining.
nintura wrote: The GK squad leaders have smite lite plus one chosen power. We have Aspiring Sorcs in the strongest psyker army in the game and we get smite lite.
I thought you played Thousand Sons, not Craftworld Eldar...
mrhappyface wrote: Do we know whether the TS smite will change in the new codex? If the beta rules become real rules then maybe the new TS and GK will get new psychic rules: maybe they will get a proper version of smite rather than the nerfed one, maybe they'll get a different power, maybe TS legion tactics will counter the smite nerf. I wouldn't panic yet until the TS rules start getting leaked.
$10 says the rule will change with the 1K Sons codex and become official shortly after, 1k Sons will not be changed and will be forced to use this version of Smite. Gray Knights will get their dex and they'll either get a replacement for Smite or they'll play by a different rule for Smite.
You do remember that the GK codex has already happened, right? Or are you anticipating a post-psyker-nerf v2, or something?
nintura wrote: The GK squad leaders have smite lite plus one chosen power. We have Aspiring Sorcs in the strongest psyker army in the game and we get smite lite.
No they don't Psyker applies to the squad, not the Sgt.
Table wrote: Smite nerf is still in beta. It is not a forgone conclusion. Im actually willing to bet it does not see the light of day in its current form because it breaks as much as it fixs. Im betting they come to this idea and make it so that smite scales in difficulty per model instead of global. So why is it that everyone is acting like like the nerf is in stone when it is clearly not?
It is in stone they just haven't announced it yet. I am will to bet you when the TS Codex drops they make it an offical rule.
It has already seen the light of day, we know about it right? They know exactly what they are doing. Do you honestly think they didn't think about TS and GK when that rule was pitched? They did and they concluded it would be best to let the community decide on whether it was a fair rule. Which is something they do all the time...
This gives people time to test the rule. By all means go run 1 game as TS and bring mostly Rubricae, see what happens. You will lose, hell even 3 Sorcs means your looking at a -2 on your 3 cast of smite. But once the Codex drops we will have enough spells to cast so no reason to make TS immune. Now AS and SOTS are non-psyker Psykers. So you bring 1 maxed out squad, and fill the rest of your army with Tzzangors with Icons of flame. Same effect less drawbacks.
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nintura wrote: Id rather have different spells in my Aspiring Sorcs (Why are they Aspiring? and why do they know less than GK psyker sergeants?)
GK dont have Psyker Sgts. They have units of Psykers, the enitre squad are psykers.
If they havent announced it yet then it isnt in stone. Ill take that bet since the ruling has been announced that it is going into play testing at a GW tournament , I forget the tourney name, games day I think.
You are back to the mostly rubric argument? If you CHOOSE to take that many rubrics then the loss is on you. The codex gives you tools (or should) its up to you to use them. I think you have bought into the Rubric Porn GW has been pushing. The entire legion is not mostly rubrics. There would be no way to operate if that was the case. Tzaangors have been around quite a while and more than outnumber the Rubric marines.
Im sure they thought of that but im also sure they are not stupid, not the new GW anyhow. Old GW would have broke TS and GK and left them without a update for years to fix the fubar. I think they know those days are done as people wont stand for it any further (which is why they had to change in the first place). Even IF the nerf goes through, it wont make a clean break, you will just have to think about the order of smites and expect more to fail. Will it suck? Yes it will, but im confident it will get fixed at some point. And thats IF the rule goes through.
Dysartes wrote: Well, new or expanded background in the new Codex should make for interesting reading - maybe that'll help clear some of these things up?
Look guys I realize you dont want to hear this but they have been waiting for the TS Codex to drop to make this Smite rule Official. Thats it, GK rely on thier spells a bit but they arent losing much due to the nature of how thier smite works plus they already have a +1 from Brotherhood of Psykers, TS will probably get Brotherhood of Sorcerers and you guessed it +1 to spells. Difference is we lean on our smite a lot more then GKs do since its basically there to augment our AS to the point where he can actually kill things in CC where as GK use it as a supplement to there already fething amazing melee.
I keep saying this the way our army played is dead, and almost everyone agrees with me but everyone argues...Why?
Am I wrong are Horde armies not the way to go this edition?
Because if so then that means the more Rubrics you bring the worse off you are. Less Rubricae and less Exalted, because now we have a cheap Caster for an HQ choice. That means the best 1k Sons army will have Ahriman, 3 Shamans, 1 20 man squad of Rubricae, 1 30 man squad of Tzaangors and the rest should be 10 man Tzzangors with Rhinos for Transport. You are literally going to have 100 Tzaangors on tge table and 21 actual TS models.
That is not "filling in some holes" that is reworking an entire army so the former backbone unit is now the Appendix, no one is sure why it's there but it can blow up and kill you.
Once people realize that they will drop the unit all togeather. Why waste a smite cast on psudo-smite when you can bring a real Sorcerer and get more out of your limited casts.
Eventually TS armies that win any games will be almost entirely Tzaangors with very few, if any, Rubricae.
Torga_DW wrote: I think the problem is, if they're going to release an army book for a subfaction, then they need more representation of that faction than 2-3 kits/squads/whatever. It goes for 1ksons, deathguard, *grey knights*, now custodes. As someone who used to play 1ksons, having only a few 1kson units in a dedicated list is just appalling. I won't even go into their effectiveness ppm.
As someone who also used to play blood angels, i wouldn't be happy if i bought the blood angels codex and there were only 2-3 bangel units in it. The rest were imperial guard, sisters, inquisition. Oh, they don't fight as a legion anymore, that was 10k years ago. Now they're integrated into the imperium. Even as i write this, i'm getting a lot of irony from the fact that 'soup' lists are now a thing.
I'm so glad you brought up BA, because the vast majority of units in that book are not unique to them.
Yes. Yet they manage to have the rules unique to the bangels, that make them bangels. A scout squad is a bangels scout squad. A tactical squad is a bangels tactical squad. Its very much a case here of - no models, no rules. So the 1ksons get 1 troop, 1 elite and 1 hq, + filler to justify their codex.
While it seems a bit early to claim that the worst case scenario is guaranteed, and the only way to win with a Thousand Sons army is to field 100+ Tzaangors..well, I guess that's Dakka for you.
It will definitely support AoS sales figures, though! Will make it look like Tzeentch a pretty popular army when everyone is buying multiple boxes of Tzaangors.
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote: Look guys I realize you dont want to hear this but they have been waiting for the TS Codex to drop to make this Smite rule Official. Thats it, GK rely on thier spells a bit but they arent losing much due to the nature of how thier smite works plus they already have a +1 from Brotherhood of Psykers, TS will probably get Brotherhood of Sorcerers and you guessed it +1 to spells. Difference is we lean on our smite a lot more then GKs do since its basically there to augment our AS to the point where he can actually kill things in CC where as GK use it as a supplement to there already fething amazing melee.
I keep saying this the way our army played is dead, and almost everyone agrees with me but everyone argues...Why?
Am I wrong are Horde armies not the way to go this edition?
Because if so then that means the more Rubrics you bring the worse off you are. Less Rubricae and less Exalted, because now we have a cheap Caster for an HQ choice. That means the best 1k Sons army will have Ahriman, 3 Shamans, 1 20 man squad of Rubricae, 1 30 man squad of Tzaangors and the rest should be 10 man Tzzangors with Rhinos for Transport. You are literally going to have 100 Tzaangors on tge table and 21 actual TS models.
That is not "filling in some holes" that is reworking an entire army so the former backbone unit is now the Appendix, no one is sure why it's there but it can blow up and kill you.
Once people realize that they will drop the unit all togeather. Why waste a smite cast on psudo-smite when you can bring a real Sorcerer and get more out of your limited casts.
Eventually TS armies that win any games will be almost entirely Tzaangors with very few, if any, Rubricae.
Im sorry, the last update I read was that the rule would enter play testing on games day. Now if they release the codex after that then you may be right. But as it stands there is no definitive drop date for the codex (i may be wrong). So with lack of evidence I have to say that you are jumping the gun here, big time. Unless you have some proof I have not read or seen. Then ill glady admit my error.
And how is the inclusion of Tzaangor models count as a revision of the army? Tzaangors have nearly always been a part of the 1ksons, now we have models to represent that, Id call it an expansion not a revision. Also, I want to take 6 land raiders and I expect to win. Sadly or happily the game does not work like that. But I think I am starting to see your problem. Last edition tzaangors were a small choice as only having one kit and you were rewarded for spamming rubrics. So people that actually bought those models and spammed them are now (maybe) at a disadvantage? This is how GW and many other business's operate, planned obsolescence is a sales tactic, and seeing as GW is a business it explains why it happens. They cannot stay in business with a bunch of one time purchasers. They need people to keep buying models. How is this important to you as a consumer? Eventually down the road they will release something you want, and for that to happen they need to stay in the black. It sucks but its the nature of the game.
Of course all of this is under the assumption that you played 1ksons last edition which im betting you did.
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote: Look guys I realize you dont want to hear this but they have been waiting for the TS Codex to drop to make this Smite rule Official. Thats it, GK rely on thier spells a bit but they arent losing much due to the nature of how thier smite works plus they already have a +1 from Brotherhood of Psykers, TS will probably get Brotherhood of Sorcerers and you guessed it +1 to spells. Difference is we lean on our smite a lot more then GKs do since its basically there to augment our AS to the point where he can actually kill things in CC where as GK use it as a supplement to there already fething amazing melee.
.
'
you keep repeating this like it's a god given truth. it's not. GW has given us the FAQ schdule and it's a safe bet that if the smite nerf happens it'll happen with the spring FAQ update
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote: Look guys I realize you dont want to hear this but they have been waiting for the TS Codex to drop to make this Smite rule Official. Thats it, GK rely on thier spells a bit but they arent losing much due to the nature of how thier smite works plus they already have a +1 from Brotherhood of Psykers, TS will probably get Brotherhood of Sorcerers and you guessed it +1 to spells. Difference is we lean on our smite a lot more then GKs do since its basically there to augment our AS to the point where he can actually kill things in CC where as GK use it as a supplement to there already fething amazing melee.
I keep saying this the way our army played is dead, and almost everyone agrees with me but everyone argues...Why?
Am I wrong are Horde armies not the way to go this edition?
Because if so then that means the more Rubrics you bring the worse off you are. Less Rubricae and less Exalted, because now we have a cheap Caster for an HQ choice. That means the best 1k Sons army will have Ahriman, 3 Shamans, 1 20 man squad of Rubricae, 1 30 man squad of Tzaangors and the rest should be 10 man Tzzangors with Rhinos for Transport. You are literally going to have 100 Tzaangors on tge table and 21 actual TS models.
That is not "filling in some holes" that is reworking an entire army so the former backbone unit is now the Appendix, no one is sure why it's there but it can blow up and kill you.
Once people realize that they will drop the unit all togeather. Why waste a smite cast on psudo-smite when you can bring a real Sorcerer and get more out of your limited casts.
Eventually TS armies that win any games will be almost entirely Tzaangors with very few, if any, Rubricae.
Question! Why does this smite nerf effect us that much? We can logically assume we will get 2 lores, I would imagine there will be Dark Hereticus and a "tzeentch marine" lore. Logical assertion and all, I cannot see them taking away dark hereticus from us based on previous army design conventions of 8th edition. Far as I am aware no codex has "taken away" spell lore options, only given more. (If I am wrong someone correct me but I think that's correct) So the "smite nerf" may actually not mean very much at all to us in the end, we shall find out in February!
This would lead us to logically assume that the Tzeentch lore list will also have another 6 spells. Not including weaver of fates which was a Dark Hereticus tzeentch add on. I know as of now we are in a rough spot due to needing to crutch smite and why this nerf hurts, but once we get our book we will have tons of psychic options in about a month. I really dont see them saying "oh yeah that super psychic army? same lore they always had! *plop* done!"
One thing; unless you know something we don't we cannot assume that the Tzaangor shaman will somehow be an HQ choice, in fact if Death Guard are anything to go by its a safe bet that hes an Elite slot. (could be either or, again once codex is out we can give appropriate appraisals) I would sincerely doubt that he is an HQ slot honestly.
As for army design; yeah there is definitely a shift going on, as you said horde armies DO in fact tend to do better this edition overall. But, I would say that "combined arms" will always be more effective then "ad nauseam spam a unit." So A mixture of Goats, Rubrics, Daemon Engines, Sorcerers, and Tanks will always be better then "take 60 rubrics and transports!!!" lol. As a better question; what is "enough" rubrics to make you happy in a list? like I often field 20-30 in 1500 or more, in 2k usually 30 or so. that is often enough to form a good solid core to an army in standard point values with plenty of points left over for support, tanks, goats, Daemon allies, support.
If you spam Rubrics x60 or something then you are bound to ham-string yourself as you lose the ability to handle Melee or long range AT, so yeah there are limitations (as with any unit) you cant just spam them and expect to waddle across the board and win. One reason I love the upcoming additions, I think skyfires are going to fix some major issues we have.
BrianDavion wrote: assuming 2 lores seems a bit of a big leap giving GKs only got one. and they're every bit as psyker heavy as 1K sons
Yet Eldar got 2, hmmm.
We already saw a Tzeentch spell from Chapter Approved, And we have weaver of fates from CSM. I dont think we stand any chance of losing those and Dark hereticus is a thing.
So we already have 8 spells, I dont see it as a big leap to give us 4 more for 2 full lores. Though you could be right.
Yeah it'd be kinda annoying if they were stuck with just the one lore. At the very least I'd expect them to slap the tzneetch demon stuff in their as an option for demon princes or something.
BrianDavion wrote: assuming 2 lores seems a bit of a big leap giving GKs only got one. and they're every bit as psyker heavy as 1K sons
Yet Eldar got 2, hmmm.
We already saw a Tzeentch spell from Chapter Approved, And we have weaver of fates from CSM. I dont think we stand any chance of losing those and Dark hereticus is a thing.
So we already have 8 spells, I dont see it as a big leap to give us 4 more for 2 full lores. Though you could be right.
I'd like to see 2 lores given to 1k sons, and the GKs to be given a second lore in a chapter approved or FAQ update or something
BrianDavion wrote: assuming 2 lores seems a bit of a big leap giving GKs only got one. and they're every bit as psyker heavy as 1K sons
Yet Eldar got 2, hmmm.
We already saw a Tzeentch spell from Chapter Approved, And we have weaver of fates from CSM. I dont think we stand any chance of losing those and Dark hereticus is a thing.
So we already have 8 spells, I dont see it as a big leap to give us 4 more for 2 full lores. Though you could be right.
Does it shock you at this point that Eldar got a form of preferential treatment?
BrianDavion wrote: assuming 2 lores seems a bit of a big leap giving GKs only got one. and they're every bit as psyker heavy as 1K sons
Yet Eldar got 2, hmmm.
We already saw a Tzeentch spell from Chapter Approved, And we have weaver of fates from CSM. I dont think we stand any chance of losing those and Dark hereticus is a thing.
So we already have 8 spells, I dont see it as a big leap to give us 4 more for 2 full lores. Though you could be right.
Does it shock you at this point that Eldar got a form of preferential treatment?
It shouldn't. For all people rant about space marine preferance etc, It's seemed pretty clear to me someone high up at GW must have a soft spot for the craftworlds elder
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote: Look guys I realize you dont want to hear this but they have been waiting for the TS Codex to drop to make this Smite rule Official. Thats it, GK rely on thier spells a bit but they arent losing much due to the nature of how thier smite works plus they already have a +1 from Brotherhood of Psykers, TS will probably get Brotherhood of Sorcerers and you guessed it +1 to spells. Difference is we lean on our smite a lot more then GKs do since its basically there to augment our AS to the point where he can actually kill things in CC where as GK use it as a supplement to there already fething amazing melee.
I keep saying this the way our army played is dead, and almost everyone agrees with me but everyone argues...Why?
Am I wrong are Horde armies not the way to go this edition?
Because if so then that means the more Rubrics you bring the worse off you are. Less Rubricae and less Exalted, because now we have a cheap Caster for an HQ choice. That means the best 1k Sons army will have Ahriman, 3 Shamans, 1 20 man squad of Rubricae, 1 30 man squad of Tzaangors and the rest should be 10 man Tzzangors with Rhinos for Transport. You are literally going to have 100 Tzaangors on tge table and 21 actual TS models.
That is not "filling in some holes" that is reworking an entire army so the former backbone unit is now the Appendix, no one is sure why it's there but it can blow up and kill you.
Once people realize that they will drop the unit all togeather. Why waste a smite cast on psudo-smite when you can bring a real Sorcerer and get more out of your limited casts.
Eventually TS armies that win any games will be almost entirely Tzaangors with very few, if any, Rubricae.
The amount of baseless assumptions made about a codex that we have almost no information about is really startling.
Take a chill pill and wait and see. Aspiring Sorcerers - for example - would be almost instantly fixed by being given access to psychic disciplines.
AegisGrimm wrote:While it seems a bit early to claim that the worst case scenario is guaranteed, and the only way to win with a Thousand Sons army is to field 100+ Tzaangors..well, I guess that's Dakka for you.
It will definitely support AoS sales figures, though! Will make it look like Tzeentch a pretty popular army when everyone is buying multiple boxes of Tzaangors.
What about my argument do you disagree with?
pismakron wrote:The premature whine is strong in this thread
What about my argument do you disagree with?
Table wrote:Im sorry, the last update I read was that the rule would enter play testing on games day. Now if they release the codex after that then you may be right. But as it stands there is no definitive drop date for the codex (i may be wrong). So with lack of evidence I have to say that you are jumping the gun here, big time. Unless you have some proof I have not read or seen. Then ill glady admit my error.
And how is the inclusion of Tzaangor models count as a revision of the army? Tzaangors have nearly always been a part of the 1ksons, now we have models to represent that, Id call it an expansion not a revision. Also, I want to take 6 land raiders and I expect to win. Sadly or happily the game does not work like that. But I think I am starting to see your problem. Last edition tzaangors were a small choice as only having one kit and you were rewarded for spamming rubrics. So people that actually bought those models and spammed them are now (maybe) at a disadvantage? This is how GW and many other business's operate, planned obsolescence is a sales tactic, and seeing as GW is a business it explains why it happens. They cannot stay in business with a bunch of one time purchasers. They need people to keep buying models. How is this important to you as a consumer? Eventually down the road they will release something you want, and for that to happen they need to stay in the black. It sucks but its the nature of the game.
Of course all of this is under the assumption that you played 1ksons last edition which im betting you did.
The last update I heard TS was coming out second half of Feb, AC in the first half.
Sure. Ok. Lets look at this then. An all Rubric/Occult army. Ok, I rapid fire my bolters except I'm slower than you so you get the charge, so I'll stay outside of rapid fire range. Either way, I'll fire my bolters. Maybe my warp flamers. Welp, that squads done. NExt squad. Lets fire bolters. Next squad. Fire more bolters. Next squad. Fire more bolters.
Smite? Nah, if I fudge it, i'll blow up 2-4 models because I have 1 wound. And each one gets harder. Other spells? Sorry, dont have any more. Let's just repeat this. For. Every. Single. Game. Ever.
Guess how long people will play that army.
Sounds like a terrible player who doesn't know how to manage their movements against the opponents speed. Half of playing Thousand Sons is knowing when to roll into rapid fire range and when not to.
I also fail to see how adding rubrics with different weapons changes ANY of this.
Ahriman21 wrote:Question! Why does this smite nerf effect us that much? We can logically assume we will get 2 lores, I would imagine there will be Dark Hereticus and a "tzeentch marine" lore. Logical assertion and all, I cannot see them taking away dark hereticus from us based on previous army design conventions of 8th edition. Far as I am aware no codex has "taken away" spell lore options, only given more. (If I am wrong someone correct me but I think that's correct) So the "smite nerf" may actually not mean very much at all to us in the end, we shall find out in February!
This would lead us to logically assume that the Tzeentch lore list will also have another 6 spells. Not including weaver of fates which was a Dark Hereticus tzeentch add on. I know as of now we are in a rough spot due to needing to crutch smite and why this nerf hurts, but once we get our book we will have tons of psychic options in about a month. I really dont see them saying "oh yeah that super psychic army? same lore they always had! *plop* done!"
One thing; unless you know something we don't we cannot assume that the Tzaangor shaman will somehow be an HQ choice, in fact if Death Guard are anything to go by its a safe bet that hes an Elite slot. (could be either or, again once codex is out we can give appropriate appraisals) I would sincerely doubt that he is an HQ slot honestly.
As for army design; yeah there is definitely a shift going on, as you said horde armies DO in fact tend to do better this edition overall. But, I would say that "combined arms" will always be more effective then "ad nauseam spam a unit." So A mixture of Goats, Rubrics, Daemon Engines, Sorcerers, and Tanks will always be better then "take 60 rubrics and transports!!!" lol. As a better question; what is "enough" rubrics to make you happy in a list? like I often field 20-30 in 1500 or more, in 2k usually 30 or so. that is often enough to form a good solid core to an army in standard point values with plenty of points left over for support, tanks, goats, Daemon allies, support.
If you spam Rubrics x60 or something then you are bound to ham-string yourself as you lose the ability to handle Melee or long range AT, so yeah there are limitations (as with any unit) you cant just spam them and expect to waddle across the board and win. One reason I love the upcoming additions, I think skyfires are going to fix some major issues we have.
I think we already have 2. Skip to the Bottom to learn more
BrianDavion wrote:assuming 2 lores seems a bit of a big leap giving GKs only got one. and they're every bit as psyker heavy as 1K sons
Not really TS are much more Psy Focused then GK is.
Caederes wrote:The amount of baseless assumptions made about a codex that we have almost no information about is really startling.
Take a chill pill and wait and see. Aspiring Sorcerers - for example - would be almost instantly fixed by being given access to psychic disciplines.
I have enough information.
1.) Brotherhood of Sorcerers rule is still up for grabs
2.) GK have +1 to casting from Brotherhood of Psykers rule, AND there are multiple overlaps when it comes to Legion Traits and Chapter Tactics
3.) We know we are getting at least 3 new units 1 the Shaman which will by a Psyker HQ, Enlightened which could come on and off Disks which be FA and Elite and will more then likely have some sort of Psychic power, and the Mutalith which will cause mutations in enemy units and probably have some sort of aura which augments nearby casting.
4.) Horde armies are better then Elite armies
5.) Smite rule is coming soon, and with a +1 to casting powers we will be able to weather with the +1
Combine these and you get low numbers of Rubrics and High Numbers of Tzzangors in various forms.
BrianDavion wrote:I'm just assuming 1 power list, mostly so that when 2 happens I can be pleasantly surprised.
The Daemon Psyker Section says "Only TZEENTCH DAEMON PSYKERS may roll powers on this chart." depending on the god. Disk riding Sorcerers are Tzeentch Daemon Psykers.
Arachnofiend wrote: Brotherhood of Sorcerers won't be our legion trait because it would only apply to a fraction of the units traits are supposed to apply to.
I will point out that the DG trait benefits maybe half the units it nominally applies to, so it isn't impossible.
Arachnofiend wrote: Brotherhood of Sorcerers won't be our legion trait because it would only apply to a fraction of the units traits are supposed to apply to.
I will point out that the DG trait benefits maybe half the units it nominally applies to, so it isn't impossible.
That's definitely not true? It confers some benefit to every model with some sort of non-flamer gun, which I believe is everything except poxwalkers and possessed in the DG codex.
Arachnofiend wrote: Brotherhood of Sorcerers won't be our legion trait because it would only apply to a fraction of the units traits are supposed to apply to.
I will point out that the DG trait benefits maybe half the units it nominally applies to, so it isn't impossible.
That's definitely not true? It confers some benefit to every model with some sort of non-flamer gun, which I believe is everything except poxwalkers and possessed in the DG codex.
Arachnofiend wrote: That's definitely not true? It confers some benefit to every model with some sort of non-flamer gun, which I believe is everything except poxwalkers and possessed in the DG codex.
Not even close, though I also think you don't realize how few infantry units DG has to be effected in the first place.
No benefit: None of the new HQ and elite characters benefit, being either only melee, melee and pistol, or the one character with an autohitting flamer. Poxwalkers, possessed, and and deathshroud also do not benefit from the chapter tactic in anyway.
Situationally benefit: Plague marines, helbrutes, and cultists can benefit from it or not, depending on loadout, as all three can be given loadouts of pure melee, melee+pistol, or melee+pistols+flamers . Ditto with the generic HQs.
Always benefit: It's just Blightlords, who will always benefit to some degree.
So, ignoring the characters, that's three units that can never benefit, three units that may or may not benefit depending on loadout, and one that always will benefit somewhat. If we look at characters, most cannot benefit as the number of new characters vastly outweighs the old, and many of those generic shared HQs aren't going to be equipped with that sort of weaponry anyways.
When I said half our units that gain the CT actually benefit from it, that's exactly what I meant. It's half at best, arguably less than that.
Sure. Ok. Lets look at this then. An all Rubric/Occult army. Ok, I rapid fire my bolters except I'm slower than you so you get the charge, so I'll stay outside of rapid fire range. Either way, I'll fire my bolters. Maybe my warp flamers. Welp, that squads done. NExt squad. Lets fire bolters. Next squad. Fire more bolters. Next squad. Fire more bolters.
Smite? Nah, if I fudge it, i'll blow up 2-4 models because I have 1 wound. And each one gets harder. Other spells? Sorry, dont have any more. Let's just repeat this. For. Every. Single. Game. Ever.
Guess how long people will play that army.
Sounds like a terrible player who doesn't know how to manage their movements against the opponents speed. Half of playing Thousand Sons is knowing when to roll into rapid fire range and when not to.
I also fail to see how adding rubrics with different weapons changes ANY of this.
Do you not see the irony of calling him a terrible player, but not seeing how the addition of heavy and special weapons units can help, sure movement matters, knowing when to get into range for that nasty rapid fire, sure they barely matter in 8th but they still matter, so does the ability to reach out and hit enemy units with anti tank fire, or have a presence over 24" that's not a psychic power, I will keep saying this, give thousand sons the basics, then build up from there.
Anti-Tank fire.. Well Scarab, Helbrutes, Heldrakes, Defilers, Vindicators, Predators, Landraiders, Forgefiends have anti-tank and longer then 24" range fire.
And we don't know the stats on the skyfire bows as well.
Sure. Ok. Lets look at this then. An all Rubric/Occult army. Ok, I rapid fire my bolters except I'm slower than you so you get the charge, so I'll stay outside of rapid fire range. Either way, I'll fire my bolters. Maybe my warp flamers. Welp, that squads done. NExt squad. Lets fire bolters. Next squad. Fire more bolters. Next squad. Fire more bolters.
Smite? Nah, if I fudge it, i'll blow up 2-4 models because I have 1 wound. And each one gets harder. Other spells? Sorry, dont have any more. Let's just repeat this. For. Every. Single. Game. Ever.
Guess how long people will play that army.
Sounds like a terrible player who doesn't know how to manage their movements against the opponents speed. Half of playing Thousand Sons is knowing when to roll into rapid fire range and when not to.
I also fail to see how adding rubrics with different weapons changes ANY of this.
Do you not see the irony of calling him a terrible player, but not seeing how the addition of heavy and special weapons units can help, sure movement matters, knowing when to get into range for that nasty rapid fire, sure they barely matter in 8th but they still matter, so does the ability to reach out and hit enemy units with anti tank fire, or have a presence over 24" that's not a psychic power, I will keep saying this, give thousand sons the basics, then build up from there.
BWAHAHAHAHAH. Manage movements against an opponents speed.... with units who move 5" while they move 6 or more..... With standard range guns. That right there wins the internet for the stupidest comment.
Sure. Ok. Lets look at this then. An all Rubric/Occult army. Ok, I rapid fire my bolters except I'm slower than you so you get the charge, so I'll stay outside of rapid fire range. Either way, I'll fire my bolters. Maybe my warp flamers. Welp, that squads done. NExt squad. Lets fire bolters. Next squad. Fire more bolters. Next squad. Fire more bolters.
Smite? Nah, if I fudge it, i'll blow up 2-4 models because I have 1 wound. And each one gets harder. Other spells? Sorry, dont have any more. Let's just repeat this. For. Every. Single. Game. Ever.
Guess how long people will play that army.
Sounds like a terrible player who doesn't know how to manage their movements against the opponents speed. Half of playing Thousand Sons is knowing when to roll into rapid fire range and when not to.
I also fail to see how adding rubrics with different weapons changes ANY of this.
Do you not see the irony of calling him a terrible player, but not seeing how the addition of heavy and special weapons units can help, sure movement matters, knowing when to get into range for that nasty rapid fire, sure they barely matter in 8th but they still matter, so does the ability to reach out and hit enemy units with anti tank fire, or have a presence over 24" that's not a psychic power, I will keep saying this, give thousand sons the basics, then build up from there.
BWAHAHAHAHAH. Manage movements against an opponents speed.... with units who move 5" while they move 6 or more..... With standard range guns. That right there wins the internet for the stupidest comment.
Ok, buddy. I guess rhinos are not a thing. Or warp time. Or pre-measuring and calculating odds. I guess the ONLY solution is hurr durr different guns!
Sure. Ok. Lets look at this then. An all Rubric/Occult army. Ok, I rapid fire my bolters except I'm slower than you so you get the charge, so I'll stay outside of rapid fire range. Either way, I'll fire my bolters. Maybe my warp flamers. Welp, that squads done. NExt squad. Lets fire bolters. Next squad. Fire more bolters. Next squad. Fire more bolters.
Smite? Nah, if I fudge it, i'll blow up 2-4 models because I have 1 wound. And each one gets harder. Other spells? Sorry, dont have any more. Let's just repeat this. For. Every. Single. Game. Ever.
Guess how long people will play that army.
Sounds like a terrible player who doesn't know how to manage their movements against the opponents speed. Half of playing Thousand Sons is knowing when to roll into rapid fire range and when not to.
I also fail to see how adding rubrics with different weapons changes ANY of this.
Do you not see the irony of calling him a terrible player, but not seeing how the addition of heavy and special weapons units can help, sure movement matters, knowing when to get into range for that nasty rapid fire, sure they barely matter in 8th but they still matter, so does the ability to reach out and hit enemy units with anti tank fire, or have a presence over 24" that's not a psychic power, I will keep saying this, give thousand sons the basics, then build up from there.
BWAHAHAHAHAH. Manage movements against an opponents speed.... with units who move 5" while they move 6 or more..... With standard range guns. That right there wins the internet for the stupidest comment.
Ok, buddy. I guess rhinos are not a thing. Or warp time. Or pre-measuring and calculating odds. I guess the ONLY solution is hurr durr different guns!
Ok sure, let's play the IF game. You get rhinos. They blow them up. Back to square one.
As far as I see it, Thousand Sons players have only gotten more units. If you don't want to use the Tzaangors, don't.
If you want to play 30k, play 30k. GW has made it clear that the 40k Thousand Sons are Rubricae and are a different beast than what they were 10,000 years ago.
The complaints of "what happened to all their heavy weapon teams? what about their sweet heresy era stuff?!" - same as what happened to the rest of the CSM list. I can't say I agree on them losing their heresy era stuff any more so than the rest of the CSM list, but there's no reason the TS should get it and the rest of the Traitor Legions shouldn't.
Regarding the heavy weapon teams, even if we assume then that all the heavy weapons left are the soulreaper cannons and that THEY should be grouped into one unit - why can't I do that with all the plasma guns on my Tactical Marines? An all plasma tac squad, why not?
Squads aren't grouped logically - it's GW's old "normal guys with a special weapon thrown in" formula. It's the same for everyone, not just TS.
Realistically, the TS can't just be CSM+Tzeentch. There would be no reason to take CSM. Same way CSM can't just be SM+daemons.
I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, but considering TS used to have two units until fair recently (Rubricae and Ahriman), I don't understand why people are so up in arms. You didn't lose anything from your 40k lists. If you played full Rubric TS, then you only had one unit really to use - there's nothing stopping you from doing that still.
If you're saying that makes you underpowered, then how about an AM player who takes an all Rough-Rider force? After all, they COULD use the rest of their book, but they want to use what they want. Does that make AM bad?
ZebioLizard2 wrote: You get heavy weapons. They blow them up. Back to Square one..
How is this conversation even going?
My heavies get to actually do decent damage to their targets. That's hard...
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Sgt_Smudge wrote: As far as I see it, Thousand Sons players have only gotten more units. If you don't want to use the Tzaangors, don't.
If you want to play 30k, play 30k. GW has made it clear that the 40k Thousand Sons are Rubricae and are a different beast than what they were 10,000 years ago.
The complaints of "what happened to all their heavy weapon teams? what about their sweet heresy era stuff?!" - same as what happened to the rest of the CSM list. I can't say I agree on them losing their heresy era stuff any more so than the rest of the CSM list, but there's no reason the TS should get it and the rest of the Traitor Legions shouldn't.
Regarding the heavy weapon teams, even if we assume then that all the heavy weapons left are the soulreaper cannons and that THEY should be grouped into one unit - why can't I do that with all the plasma guns on my Tactical Marines? An all plasma tac squad, why not?
Squads aren't grouped logically - it's GW's old "normal guys with a special weapon thrown in" formula. It's the same for everyone, not just TS.
Realistically, the TS can't just be CSM+Tzeentch. There would be no reason to take CSM. Same way CSM can't just be SM+daemons.
I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, but considering TS used to have two units until fair recently (Rubricae and Ahriman), I don't understand why people are so up in arms. You didn't lose anything from your 40k lists. If you played full Rubric TS, then you only had one unit really to use - there's nothing stopping you from doing that still.
If you're saying that makes you underpowered, then how about an AM player who takes an all Rough-Rider force? After all, they COULD use the rest of their book, but they want to use what they want. Does that make AM bad?
You can't compare any codex to space marines... they get everything. 40+ data sheets, dozens of models that mix and match into multiple roles.
We are getting our first 1k Sons codex... with no new actual thousand sons. Only imports.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: As far as I see it, Thousand Sons players have only gotten more units. If you don't want to use the Tzaangors, don't.
If you want to play 30k, play 30k. GW has made it clear that the 40k Thousand Sons are Rubricae and are a different beast than what they were 10,000 years ago.
The complaints of "what happened to all their heavy weapon teams? what about their sweet heresy era stuff?!" - same as what happened to the rest of the CSM list. I can't say I agree on them losing their heresy era stuff any more so than the rest of the CSM list, but there's no reason the TS should get it and the rest of the Traitor Legions shouldn't.
Regarding the heavy weapon teams, even if we assume then that all the heavy weapons left are the soulreaper cannons and that THEY should be grouped into one unit - why can't I do that with all the plasma guns on my Tactical Marines? An all plasma tac squad, why not?
Squads aren't grouped logically - it's GW's old "normal guys with a special weapon thrown in" formula. It's the same for everyone, not just TS.
Realistically, the TS can't just be CSM+Tzeentch. There would be no reason to take CSM. Same way CSM can't just be SM+daemons.
I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, but considering TS used to have two units until fair recently (Rubricae and Ahriman), I don't understand why people are so up in arms. You didn't lose anything from your 40k lists. If you played full Rubric TS, then you only had one unit really to use - there's nothing stopping you from doing that still.
If you're saying that makes you underpowered, then how about an AM player who takes an all Rough-Rider force? After all, they COULD use the rest of their book, but they want to use what they want. Does that make AM bad?
You can't compare any codex to space marines... they get everything. 40+ data sheets, dozens of models that mix and match into multiple roles.
We are getting our first 1k Sons codex... with no new actual thousand sons. Only imports.
Because GW loves Space Marines. Because Space Marines have been a full army forever.
Thousand Sons have never been a full army until recently, and that's an army which was expanded from two units, one of which being a character. Nothing is stopping you from taking the unit which is the cornerstone of that faction - which is all you could do beforehand.
If TS are dead, then they were never alive in te first place.
nintura wrote: And that's our point.... why can't they have made more units before making the codex....
They could have. But then you probably would not be getting to codex now. Or ever. It is about how much of their production capacity GW is willing to dedicate for a minor faction. But if you wouldn't refuse to take half of the units available to you TS would have reasonable amount of stuff.
nintura wrote: And that's our point.... why can't they have made more units before making the codex....
It is very easy to make new units, but making new moulds for injection moulded sprues is both challenging and expensive. It can easily be £50000 pound and up for a three plate mold in precipitation-hardened steel, and those figures can only be recouperated with sizeable production volumes. GW is doing well, but they are not Lego.
They are more alive then my Emperor's Children that's for sure. I mean if you don't want the adorable bird-goats, Slaanesh will take them with open arms.
For me the problem with the thousand sons is with the psychic phase.
In the 7th edition when the TS units came out we had loads of psychic powers to use in all kind of situations. We had anti-horde, anti-tank and elite killer powers.
So taking 3 rubric squads came with different "loud-outs". An aspiring or scarab sorcerer who had doombolts (str8 AP1) would try and take out tanks while sorcerer with a assault 4 str6 AP2 power would try and kill terminators.
Not saying this was working very well, due to a number of issues, but at least you had differences in your thousansd son units. I had fun playing around with all those powers so i didnt miss the plasma/melta etc weapons. Also adding more marines generally gave you more/other psychic powers to play with.
But now in the 8th edition i feel like the psychic phase has been "simplified" too much. Mainly because all offense based psychic powers are limited to dealing mortal wounds. This leads to all offense psychic powers boiling down to smite or smite with a slight twist. Anything else runs the risk of becoming too powerful vs elite armies. Which imo makes the entire psychic phase mind numbing boring for psychic heavy armies.
I can understand why people would want different weapon load outs for rubrics to gain some variation in the army now that variety in the psychic phase is non existent. (Adding a thousand sons unit (scarab or rubric) gives you more AP-2 bolters while you would like a high str/dmg weapon.)
But i also see that simply adding weapon options to rubric squads would make them similar to any other marine army. But i dont think its possible to make a army balanced army based around psychic powers right now. The system works when armies have 1 or 2 psykers but add more and you run into issues. (Mortal wounds being very good vs elite armies but not so much vs hordes, rule of one, limited psychic powers and perhaps soon smite BETA rule)
So i have no doubt GW saw this while making the codex. But shoehorning all those missing elements into the AoS ported tzaangors and telling people to go buy those if you want to play a decent TS army is kinda insulting.
Tzaangors as cheap cannon fodder for the sorcerers is fluffy to me but when TS units start dying to protect mutated goat-birds i have a issue with.
I would rather have them let go of the mortal wound only mechanic in the psychic phase and give our TS units access to real powers but i don't think this will happen. We are already halfway into the edition now and it would require them to make some pretty big changes to the psychic phase.
I think GW will just make psychic heavy armies perform below average (or force TS into tzaangors) until they maybe change in the 9th edition.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: They are more alive then my Emperor's Children that's for sure. I mean if you don't want the adorable bird-goats, Slaanesh will take them with open arms.
I have enough information.
1.) Brotherhood of Sorcerers rule is still up for grabs
2.) GK have +1 to casting from Brotherhood of Psykers rule, AND there are multiple overlaps when it comes to Legion Traits and Chapter Tactics
3.) We know we are getting at least 3 new units 1 the Shaman which will by a Psyker HQ, Enlightened which could come on and off Disks which be FA and Elite and will more then likely have some sort of Psychic power, and the Mutalith which will cause mutations in enemy units and probably have some sort of aura which augments nearby casting.
4.) Horde armies are better then Elite armies
5.) Smite rule is coming soon, and with a +1 to casting powers we will be able to weather with the +1
Combine these and you get low numbers of Rubrics and High Numbers of Tzzangors in various forms.
You completely missed my point.
This is what has been confirmed about the Thousand Sons codex so far;
1) It is an 8th Edition codex with all that entails. 2) It has a selection of new units. 3) It has the existing Thousand Sons army list.
From that, in this this thread alone you have been speaking in a factual tone and stating the following; Rubrics will suck, Scarab Occult will suck, Aspiring Sorcerers will suck, Tzaangors will comprise the majority of army lists (which is already false right now as my army already doesn't do that ), Tzaangor Shamans will be HQs (when it's equally likely they will be Elites), that armies will follow the exact same archetype, that competitive Thousand Sons will not use any or many Rubric Marines.
While stuff like this might be true now or could very well prove accurate with the codex, the fact that you're making these statements - not claims - with no factual evidence is absolutely ridiculous. Yes, 8th is the edition of hordes. Also yes, a semi-elite army like Eldar can do extremely well. Tzaangors - or, you know, Cultists - will probably be mandatory to competitive lists based purely on how this edition functions. However, in saying that, I've been winning games with a higher ratio of Rubrics to Tzaangors against players and armies that are not at all pushovers. To say that every competitive army will automatically follow the archetype you state when you know absolutely nothing about how this codex will update units like Rubric Marines is wasting your and everyone else's time. Codex: Eldar proved that you can turn previously terrible units (Fire Prisms) into top-tier choices and invigorate an army that was previously almost entirely non-competitive to a point that they are now seen as a meta-buster.
Rubric Marines could become fairly competitive choices like we're seeing from Primaris with just a few changes, i.e. points drop for both the regular Rubricae and the Aspiring Sorcerer, a rework of the Aspiring Sorcerer to be able to use powers other than Smite, changes to how Perils affects the army (i.e. ignoring Perils on a given roll) and a good Legion trait to supplement the unit. Stratagems can also completely redeem the unit; take the Chaos Daemons codex as an example of making otherwise mediocre or non-competitive choices (Flamers, Bloodthirsters, etc) absolutely deadly.
As far as what you quoted at me, you're doing exactly what I described. Assuming. I don't even get what your overall point is here but whatever So I think you're trying to say that Rubricae will get rules copy-pasted from the Grey Knights codex purely to augment our psychic abilities and that's all they'll get? Excuse me but that's laughable. Also, the Shaman is not guaranteed to be a HQ, Enlightened and Skyfires are explicitly NOT wizards/psykers in Age of Sigmar so I have no idea why you'd make that claim. Basically, your entire post is guesswork and you're presenting it as evidence to support your tonally factual claims. No thanks.
The point is; we don't know enough to accurately say anything at this point, especially seeing as we have no idea what the legion trait of all things will be. These problems we all know could and probably will still be around, but your approach to the situation by automatically proclaiming that the worst is reality when you have no legitimate evidence to base that on makes me question your intent.
I'd like to see us get Chaos Familiar as a Stratagem, or a separate option to pay to upgrade the Rubrics sorcerer into an actually psyker worth a damn. Either way, if we can differentiate our squads according to their psychic power, that'd be something. I think, whilst this thread is helping me deal with waiting for the codex to drop, we do need to chill a bit and see what awaits us, before rushing to judge, condemn or defend the Sons. Fingers crossed they got the attention from the writers that the faction deserves.
Oh and tzaangors are okay in my book, but the new pink horrors are amazing. I ran a deepstrike 20-horror unit last night with a flickering flame herald & DP in support - they executed 8 beserkers on the spot when they warped in. Sweeeet.
Need I mention that the entire premise of this thread is absurd?
Thousand Sons in 6th Edition: Ahriman, Rubric Marines, part of the Chaos Space Marine codex.
Thousand Sons in 7th Edition: Magnus, Ahriman, Exalted Sorcerers, Rubric Marines, Scarab Occult, Tzaangors, split up between Wrath of Magnus and the Traitor Legions codex, lost access to most of the Chaos Space Marine codex units in Thousand Sons detachments.
Thousand Sons in 8th Edition: Magnus, Ahriman, Exalted Sorcerers, Tzaangor Shamans, Rubric Marines, Scarab Occult, Tzaangors, Tzaangor Enlightened, Tzaangor Skyfires, Mutalith Vortex Beast, get their own personalised codex, retain access to a large portion of the Chaos Space Marine codex units.
Oh no, they added new units to the army! How can the Thousand Sons ever recover!?
Caederes wrote: Need I mention that the entire premise of this thread is absurd?
Thousand Sons in 6th Edition: Ahriman, Rubric Marines, part of the Chaos Space Marine codex.
Thousand Sons in 7th Edition: Magnus, Ahriman, Exalted Sorcerers, Rubric Marines, Scarab Occult, Tzaangors, split up between Wrath of Magnus and the Traitor Legions codex, lost access to most of the Chaos Space Marine codex units in Thousand Sons detachments.
Thousand Sons in 8th Edition: Magnus, Ahriman, Exalted Sorcerers, Tzaangor Shamans, Rubric Marines, Scarab Occult, Tzaangors, Tzaangor Enlightened, Tzaangor Skyfires, Mutalith Vortex Beast, get their own personalised codex, retain access to a large portion of the Chaos Space Marine codex units.
Oh no, they added new units to the army! How can the Thousand Sons ever recover!?
Sgt_Smudge wrote: As far as I see it, Thousand Sons players have only gotten more units. If you don't want to use the Tzaangors, don't.
If you want to play 30k, play 30k. GW has made it clear that the 40k Thousand Sons are Rubricae and are a different beast than what they were 10,000 years ago.
The complaints of "what happened to all their heavy weapon teams? what about their sweet heresy era stuff?!" - same as what happened to the rest of the CSM list. I can't say I agree on them losing their heresy era stuff any more so than the rest of the CSM list, but there's no reason the TS should get it and the rest of the Traitor Legions shouldn't.
Regarding the heavy weapon teams, even if we assume then that all the heavy weapons left are the soulreaper cannons and that THEY should be grouped into one unit - why can't I do that with all the plasma guns on my Tactical Marines? An all plasma tac squad, why not?
Squads aren't grouped logically - it's GW's old "normal guys with a special weapon thrown in" formula. It's the same for everyone, not just TS.
Realistically, the TS can't just be CSM+Tzeentch. There would be no reason to take CSM. Same way CSM can't just be SM+daemons.
I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, but considering TS used to have two units until fair recently (Rubricae and Ahriman), I don't understand why people are so up in arms. You didn't lose anything from your 40k lists. If you played full Rubric TS, then you only had one unit really to use - there's nothing stopping you from doing that still.
If you're saying that makes you underpowered, then how about an AM player who takes an all Rough-Rider force? After all, they COULD use the rest of their book, but they want to use what they want. Does that make AM bad?
Okay here is my challange to you I want you to build a CSM army without any CSM in it none at all. A battle forged army that could win some games. Once your done with that just pick another army at random and build that without using any thing in the Title. So an ork Army with no Orks, Daemon Army with no Daemons, Tau Army with no Tau (this is the closest you will get, and by the way there are 4 Kroot units and 3 TS units. So an Auxiliary has more units then an army).
To the people who keep saying "oh you just want Spiky Marines" please stop its not an argument, and you sound childish. SM have literally everything. You guys have so much crap they ran out of gak to give to you and what did they do focus on other factions? Nope Adeptus Restartes. Whole line of them. Asking for a heavy weapons squad isnt exactly out of this world. Damn near every army has a heavy weapons squad, why cant we have one? The models exist. It would allow you to not have to buy 2 boxes of Rubrics to get 2 Soul Reaper Cannons.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: As far as I see it, Thousand Sons players have only gotten more units. If you don't want to use the Tzaangors, don't.
If you want to play 30k, play 30k. GW has made it clear that the 40k Thousand Sons are Rubricae and are a different beast than what they were 10,000 years ago.
The complaints of "what happened to all their heavy weapon teams? what about their sweet heresy era stuff?!" - same as what happened to the rest of the CSM list. I can't say I agree on them losing their heresy era stuff any more so than the rest of the CSM list, but there's no reason the TS should get it and the rest of the Traitor Legions shouldn't.
Regarding the heavy weapon teams, even if we assume then that all the heavy weapons left are the soulreaper cannons and that THEY should be grouped into one unit - why can't I do that with all the plasma guns on my Tactical Marines? An all plasma tac squad, why not?
Squads aren't grouped logically - it's GW's old "normal guys with a special weapon thrown in" formula. It's the same for everyone, not just TS.
Realistically, the TS can't just be CSM+Tzeentch. There would be no reason to take CSM. Same way CSM can't just be SM+daemons.
I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, but considering TS used to have two units until fair recently (Rubricae and Ahriman), I don't understand why people are so up in arms. You didn't lose anything from your 40k lists. If you played full Rubric TS, then you only had one unit really to use - there's nothing stopping you from doing that still.
If you're saying that makes you underpowered, then how about an AM player who takes an all Rough-Rider force? After all, they COULD use the rest of their book, but they want to use what they want. Does that make AM bad?
Okay here is my challange to you I want you to build a CSM army without any CSM in it none at all. A battle forged army that could win some games. Once your done with that just pick another army at random and build that without using any thing in the Title. So an ork Army with no Orks, Daemon Army with no Daemons, Tau Army with no Tau (this is the closest you will get, and by the way there are 4 Kroot units and 3 TS units. So an Auxiliary has more units then an army).
Okay.
Cultist horde and Daemon Engines, lead by a Daemon Prince.
Grot revolution list (something I find really cool!) - Gretchin, Ork Artillery, Grot Tanks.
Daemon army with no Daemons is impossible, given that Daemons make up 100% of the list. There's no other choice. Not the same as this, considering that there's enough Rubricae in the TS codex to make a Battalion.
Tau army with no Tau - Kroot and Vespid, including Knarlocs, Hounds and Riders.
You were saying?
TS have HQ and Troops. The most BASIC detachment in the game can be fulfilled by this.
Winning all depends on what you're playing against. A mirror match? A friendly pickup game? A tournament tier list? Even IF Rubricae was the only thing in the TS army, and consisted of a good range of units, they could still lose against a friendly pickup game if the 'dex was underpowered anyway.
Realistically, the entire SM codex could be reduced to Guilliman, Stormravens and Razorbacks, and it would be more competitive than most lists.
So - what was your point?
To the people who keep saying "oh you just want Spiky Marines" please stop its not an argument, and you sound childish. SM have literally everything. You guys have so much crap they ran out of gak to give to you and what did they do focus on other factions? Nope Adeptus Restartes. Whole line of them. Asking for a heavy weapons squad isnt exactly out of this world. Damn near every army has a heavy weapons squad, why cant we have one? The models exist. It would allow you to not have to buy 2 boxes of Rubrics to get 2 Soul Reaper Cannons.
Custodes are just as much Space Marine as Sisters are - just the opposite side of the spectrum. If SoB got a release, would you call them SM? No - so why do Custodes matter here?
Want a list of armies without heavy weapons squads? Nurgle, for one. Tempestus Militarum. Custodes, presumably. Assassins. Inquisition. Sisters of Silence. Harlequins. Genestealer Cults.
All of the above are "sub-factions" - few units, very specialised. I think TS fits in that category too, given how GW is treating them.
Also, if you're complaining about the Soulreapers being limited, how about Deathwatch? 1 Infernus Heavy Bolter and 1 Frag Cannon per box too - does that Deathwatch to "no heavy weapon teams" as well?
Thousand Sons aren't being treated like the main Space Marine codex, because GW sees them more like the other "splinter" faction armies.
If you want to oppose the TS being treated as a splinter army instead, that's fine, but I would hope you also supported the other splinter armies being upgraded too.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: As far as I see it, Thousand Sons players have only gotten more units. If you don't want to use the Tzaangors, don't.
If you want to play 30k, play 30k. GW has made it clear that the 40k Thousand Sons are Rubricae and are a different beast than what they were 10,000 years ago.
The complaints of "what happened to all their heavy weapon teams? what about their sweet heresy era stuff?!" - same as what happened to the rest of the CSM list. I can't say I agree on them losing their heresy era stuff any more so than the rest of the CSM list, but there's no reason the TS should get it and the rest of the Traitor Legions shouldn't.
Regarding the heavy weapon teams, even if we assume then that all the heavy weapons left are the soulreaper cannons and that THEY should be grouped into one unit - why can't I do that with all the plasma guns on my Tactical Marines? An all plasma tac squad, why not?
Squads aren't grouped logically - it's GW's old "normal guys with a special weapon thrown in" formula. It's the same for everyone, not just TS.
Realistically, the TS can't just be CSM+Tzeentch. There would be no reason to take CSM. Same way CSM can't just be SM+daemons.
I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, but considering TS used to have two units until fair recently (Rubricae and Ahriman), I don't understand why people are so up in arms. You didn't lose anything from your 40k lists. If you played full Rubric TS, then you only had one unit really to use - there's nothing stopping you from doing that still.
If you're saying that makes you underpowered, then how about an AM player who takes an all Rough-Rider force? After all, they COULD use the rest of their book, but they want to use what they want. Does that make AM bad?
Okay here is my challange to you I want you to build a CSM army without any CSM in it none at all. A battle forged army that could win some games. Once your done with that just pick another army at random and build that without using any thing in the Title. So an ork Army with no Orks, Daemon Army with no Daemons, Tau Army with no Tau (this is the closest you will get, and by the way there are 4 Kroot units and 3 TS units. So an Auxiliary has more units then an army).
Okay.
Cultist horde and Daemon Engines, lead by a Daemon Prince.
Grot revolution list (something I find really cool!) - Gretchin, Ork Artillery, Grot Tanks.
Daemon army with no Daemons is impossible, given that Daemons make up 100% of the list. There's no other choice. Not the same as this, considering that there's enough Rubricae in the TS codex to make a Battalion.
Tau army with no Tau - Kroot and Vespid, including Knarlocs, Hounds and Riders.
You were saying?
TS have HQ and Troops. The most BASIC detachment in the game can be fulfilled by this.
Winning all depends on what you're playing against. A mirror match? A friendly pickup game? A tournament tier list? Even IF Rubricae was the only thing in the TS army, and consisted of a good range of units, they could still lose against a friendly pickup game if the 'dex was underpowered anyway.
Realistically, the entire SM codex could be reduced to Guilliman, Stormravens and Razorbacks, and it would be more competitive than most lists.
So - what was your point?
Chaos Space Marines (Possible)
Chaos Daemons (Not Possible)
Dark Eldar (Not Possible)
Craftworld Eldar(Not Possible)
Eldar Harlequins(Not Possible)
Necrons (Not Possible)
Orks (Almost Possible HQ has to be Ork)
Tau Empire ( almost Possible HQ has to be Tau)
Tyranids (Not Possible)
Genestealer Cults (Not Possible)
Space Marines (Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Grey Knights, Deathwatch, Ultramarines and Space Wolves each have their own chapter Codex.)(Not Possible)
Astra Militarum (Imperial Guard) (Not Possible)
Militarum Tempestus (Stormtroopers) (Possible)
Inquisition (Not Possible)
Adepta Sororitas (Sisters of Battle) (Not Possible)
Imperial Knights (Not Possible)
Skitarii (Troops of Adeptus Mechanicus) (Not Possible)
Cult Mechanicus (Priesthood of Adeptus Mechanicus) (Not Possible)
Being intentionally obtuse doesn't make you smart. You also managed to randomly pick the only other 2 out of 20 factions that can come close, but aren't actually able to accomplish it. What are the odds?
Spoiler:
To the people who keep saying "oh you just want Spiky Marines" please stop its not an argument, and you sound childish. SM have literally everything. You guys have so much crap they ran out of gak to give to you and what did they do focus on other factions? Nope Adeptus Restartes. Whole line of them. Asking for a heavy weapons squad isnt exactly out of this world. Damn near every army has a heavy weapons squad, why cant we have one? The models exist. It would allow you to not have to buy 2 boxes of Rubrics to get 2 Soul Reaper Cannons.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Custodes are just as much Space Marine as Sisters are - just the opposite side of the spectrum. If SoB got a release, would you call them SM? No - so why do Custodes matter here?
I was talking about NuMarines you know the entirely new line of space marines which didn't exist at all anywhere even in lore up until a year ago?
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Want a list of armies without heavy weapons squads? Nurgle, for one. Tempestus Militarum. Custodes, presumably. Assassins. Inquisition. Sisters of Silence. Harlequins. Genestealer Cults.
All of the above are "sub-factions" - few units, very specialised. I think TS fits in that category too, given how GW is treating them.
Lets see which of these factions screams needs a heavy weapons squad. Assassins hmm m seems subtlety is more their thing. Custodes are a melee focused army and rely more on speed then firepower, Genestealer Cults do have heavy weapons they are just embedded into the squads and come in melee form (go figure with an army that can pop up anywhere on the map), Harlequins are again a fast melee focused unit that rely on being in the enemies face, they also have melta pistols. Inquisition seems like they are a Psyker Melee army, but sure they could have a heavy weapons squad don't see why not, Nurgle again a melee monster, Sisters they have some pretty cool unique stuff with Rhinos, but yeah they could probably use a heavy weapons squad (and probably more), not to familiar with them though.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: [spoiler]Also, if you're complaining about the Soulreapers being limited, how about Deathwatch? 1 Infernus Heavy Bolter and 1 Frag Cannon per box too - does that Deathwatch to "no heavy weapon teams" as well?
Thousand Sons aren't being treated like the main Space Marine codex, because GW sees them more like the other "splinter" faction armies.
Again, being intentionally obtuse doesn't make you smart.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: If you want to oppose the TS being treated as a splinter army instead, that's fine, but I would hope you also supported the other splinter armies being upgraded too.
You act like I'm asking for 10 new kits all I was thinking personally was 1 new kit which they already have the rules and the models for just mash it together and make it a unit, and maybe a cheap HQ with an Aura. I don't even think we should have a fast attack.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: As far as I see it, Thousand Sons players have only gotten more units. If you don't want to use the Tzaangors, don't.
If you want to play 30k, play 30k. GW has made it clear that the 40k Thousand Sons are Rubricae and are a different beast than what they were 10,000 years ago.
The complaints of "what happened to all their heavy weapon teams? what about their sweet heresy era stuff?!" - same as what happened to the rest of the CSM list. I can't say I agree on them losing their heresy era stuff any more so than the rest of the CSM list, but there's no reason the TS should get it and the rest of the Traitor Legions shouldn't.
Regarding the heavy weapon teams, even if we assume then that all the heavy weapons left are the soulreaper cannons and that THEY should be grouped into one unit - why can't I do that with all the plasma guns on my Tactical Marines? An all plasma tac squad, why not?
Squads aren't grouped logically - it's GW's old "normal guys with a special weapon thrown in" formula. It's the same for everyone, not just TS.
Realistically, the TS can't just be CSM+Tzeentch. There would be no reason to take CSM. Same way CSM can't just be SM+daemons.
I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, but considering TS used to have two units until fair recently (Rubricae and Ahriman), I don't understand why people are so up in arms. You didn't lose anything from your 40k lists. If you played full Rubric TS, then you only had one unit really to use - there's nothing stopping you from doing that still.
If you're saying that makes you underpowered, then how about an AM player who takes an all Rough-Rider force? After all, they COULD use the rest of their book, but they want to use what they want. Does that make AM bad?
I can answer those questions.
Firstly the other legions DO have these weapons, so dont know where your coming from on that, autocannon havocs, plasma guns etc. its all there bar a few heresy specific weapons like volkites.
Why cant space marines band together to have "special weapon squads", simple, the codex, it defined how marines can fight, secondly, they can, they are called hellblasters, Chaos does not follow the codex, except for some reason they do???? that has been a bug bear of mine for a while, 4 heavies to a havoc squad, 1 heavy and 1 special in a tac squad, thats codex space marines and fits that fluff, this is not how the legions fought, so that needs explaining.
As to why have people only being saying this recently, thats not true at all, its something we have been saying since 3rd, Thousand sons should have access to the same units as Chaos marines but some of these should be represented by Rubricai.
It boils down to wanting more Thousand sons representation in the Thousand sons codex, I have no issue with the addition of Tzaangors, but Thousand sons need more representation too, something that is very easy to implement and fits the fluff, this "no model no rules" crap is the real issue here.
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Caederes wrote: Need I mention that the entire premise of this thread is absurd?
Thousand Sons in 6th Edition: Ahriman, Rubric Marines, part of the Chaos Space Marine codex.
Thousand Sons in 7th Edition: Magnus, Ahriman, Exalted Sorcerers, Rubric Marines, Scarab Occult, Tzaangors, split up between Wrath of Magnus and the Traitor Legions codex, lost access to most of the Chaos Space Marine codex units in Thousand Sons detachments.
Thousand Sons in 8th Edition: Magnus, Ahriman, Exalted Sorcerers, Tzaangor Shamans, Rubric Marines, Scarab Occult, Tzaangors, Tzaangor Enlightened, Tzaangor Skyfires, Mutalith Vortex Beast, get their own personalised codex, retain access to a large portion of the Chaos Space Marine codex units.
Oh no, they added new units to the army! How can the Thousand Sons ever recover!?
More like
6th Ed: 1 thousand sons unit, Ahirman
7th: Ahirman, Magnus, Scarab occult, Rubrics, exalted sorcerers, so 2 Thousand sons units, 2 special characters and TSon sculpts for a unit we have always had, but welcome none the less!
8th: Ahirman, Magnus, Scarab occult, Rubrics, Exalted Sorcerers, so same number of thousand sons units as 7th, still lack thousand sons heavies, fast attack (not sure how they would fit here).
Tzaangors are not Thousand sons, they are in the codex, that is it, I even bet they will lack the "thousand sons" keyword.
It's obvious that about three of you guys are seething mad about something that is going to be universal across all four cult legions-that the majority of the power-armored marines in each force are going to be the traditional specialized units unique to those cults, without the versatility of the specialized heavy weapon and assault/jump pack squads of loyalist marines or standard Chaos marine forces.
They also, at least for Thousand Sons and Death Guard (so far), have both Terminators with unique gear, and non-Marine units that are unique to those forces. It just is what it is. Doubtless World Eaters and Emperor's Children will, too.
It's obvious that about three of you guys are seething mad about something that is going to be universal across all four cult legions-that the majority of the power-armored marines in each force are going to be the traditional specialized units unique to those cults, without the versatility of the specialized heavy weapon and assault/jump pack squads of loyalist marines or standard Chaos marine forces.
They also, at least for Thousand Sons and Death Guard (so far), have both Terminators with unique gear, and non-Marine units that are unique to those forces. It just is what it is. Doubtless World Eaters and Emperor's Children will, too.
I am not seething mad, more disapointed that GW has wasted yet another opertunity to expand a faction based on "no model, no rules", then it makes less sense as the models exist and we can just convert them to fit these roles, but as a "rubric Havoc squad" doesnt exist, we wont get it, I like that we are getting Tzaangors to boost the faction, but not more options for thousand sons in a thousand sons codex.
I have enough information.
1.) Brotherhood of Sorcerers rule is still up for grabs
2.) GK have +1 to casting from Brotherhood of Psykers rule, AND there are multiple overlaps when it comes to Legion Traits and Chapter Tactics
3.) We know we are getting at least 3 new units 1 the Shaman which will by a Psyker HQ, Enlightened which could come on and off Disks which be FA and Elite and will more then likely have some sort of Psychic power, and the Mutalith which will cause mutations in enemy units and probably have some sort of aura which augments nearby casting.
4.) Horde armies are better then Elite armies
5.) Smite rule is coming soon, and with a +1 to casting powers we will be able to weather with the +1
Combine these and you get low numbers of Rubrics and High Numbers of Tzzangors in various forms.
You completely missed my point.
This is what has been confirmed about the Thousand Sons codex so far;
1) It is an 8th Edition codex with all that entails. 2) It has a selection of new units. 3) It has the existing Thousand Sons army list.
From that, in this this thread alone you have been speaking in a factual tone and stating the following; Rubrics will suck, Scarab Occult will suck, Aspiring Sorcerers will suck, Tzaangors will comprise the majority of army lists (which is already false right now as my army already doesn't do that ), Tzaangor Shamans will be HQs (when it's equally likely they will be Elites), that armies will follow the exact same archetype, that competitive Thousand Sons will not use any or many Rubric Marines.
While stuff like this might be true now or could very well prove accurate with the codex, the fact that you're making these statements - not claims - with no factual evidence is absolutely ridiculous. Yes, 8th is the edition of hordes. Also yes, a semi-elite army like Eldar can do extremely well. Tzaangors - or, you know, Cultists - will probably be mandatory to competitive lists based purely on how this edition functions. However, in saying that, I've been winning games with a higher ratio of Rubrics to Tzaangors against players and armies that are not at all pushovers. To say that every competitive army will automatically follow the archetype you state when you know absolutely nothing about how this codex will update units like Rubric Marines is wasting your and everyone else's time. Codex: Eldar proved that you can turn previously terrible units (Fire Prisms) into top-tier choices and invigorate an army that was previously almost entirely non-competitive to a point that they are now seen as a meta-buster.
Rubric Marines could become fairly competitive choices like we're seeing from Primaris with just a few changes, i.e. points drop for both the regular Rubricae and the Aspiring Sorcerer, a rework of the Aspiring Sorcerer to be able to use powers other than Smite, changes to how Perils affects the army (i.e. ignoring Perils on a given roll) and a good Legion trait to supplement the unit. Stratagems can also completely redeem the unit; take the Chaos Daemons codex as an example of making otherwise mediocre or non-competitive choices (Flamers, Bloodthirsters, etc) absolutely deadly.
As far as what you quoted at me, you're doing exactly what I described. Assuming. I don't even get what your overall point is here but whatever So I think you're trying to say that Rubricae will get rules copy-pasted from the Grey Knights codex purely to augment our psychic abilities and that's all they'll get? Excuse me but that's laughable. Also, the Shaman is not guaranteed to be a HQ, Enlightened and Skyfires are explicitly NOT wizards/psykers in Age of Sigmar so I have no idea why you'd make that claim. Basically, your entire post is guesswork and you're presenting it as evidence to support your tonally factual claims. No thanks.
The point is; we don't know enough to accurately say anything at this point, especially seeing as we have no idea what the legion trait of all things will be. These problems we all know could and probably will still be around, but your approach to the situation by automatically proclaiming that the worst is reality when you have no legitimate evidence to base that on makes me question your intent.
1.) We know way more then that as of right now 3 Tzaangor units are being added, Skyfires, Enlightened, and Shaman, plus the Mutalith which will probably do the same thing it does in AoS which is create spawns while doing mortal wounds and Reduce LD of enemy units.
2.) I'm saying after the codex drops these changes will occur so your fine until then
3.) We don't know enough...
Here is what I know...
Games workshop is a business, and they are trying to make money
They make money by selling models
They sell models by making them worth buying
People buy models they don't already have
Changes to smite are "going to be tested"
Conclusion, smite changes go through Rubrics become ineffective in large numbers of small units, and really only work as large blocks of 10-20 models. Now there is a reason to buy more efficient models, what models do we have, Tzaangors 3 different units NEW to the army after this Codex drops.
Problems Tzaangors currently have are Ld kinda low and susceptible to morale losses, little to no range capabilities, no transports for 20+ squads, slightly expensive for horde armies, no heavy hitters
Solutions; Make Shamans add/Mitigate LD/ morale losses and cast spells, Add Skyfires to give ranged options, have Enlightened for heavy hits (probably on the charge) add psyker abilities, Mutalith will function as a screen to give Tzaangors time to move into combat and create new models (more spawn).
But lets assume they do some changes if they reduce the points cost your not getting the ability to cast spells other then mini smite, and your going to be wasting points on having a Psyker that can't Psyk. If you do get the ability to cast spells then your not getting a points drop and still risk blowing yourself up.
That means reduce the number of Psykers from Rubric Squads as much as possible, no matter what.
Yeah, I think the idea tzaangors would lose access to the thousand son keyword fairly absurd, given everything we've seen. It's basically a one in a million chance and even then I'd be betting on a FAQ to change it shortly after.
Really it just comes down to adjusting to what the lore is. The specialized cult legions are going to gradually shift to something close to their fluff equivalent, which is not solely as a legion of space marines but instead as warbands of chaos worshippers dedicated to a specific god led by space marines from the legion dedicated to said god.
You can hate this all you like, but it is actually bringing the army closer to its fluff portrayal and creating a force that manages to avoid many of the problems that have traditionally plagued space marine armies.
Also, am I the only one who finds it entirely reasonable rubrics are unable to use plasma weapons? These are really temperamental weapons that require a great deal of attention to avoid blowing up in your face. A rubric can't do that by default and it seems reasonable that level of micromanagement is beyond a sorcerer. I'd argue the same for weapons which require repeated complex choices like combi weapons (that aren't two bolters strapped together obviously) and missile launchers that can fire different types of rounds.
SilverAlien wrote: Yeah, I think the idea tzaangors would lose access to the thousand son keyword fairly absurd, given everything we've seen. It's basically a one in a million chance and even then I'd be betting on a FAQ to change it shortly after.
Really it just comes down to adjusting to what the lore is. The specialized cult legions are going to gradually shift to something close to their fluff equivalent, which is not solely as a legion of space marines but instead as warbands of chaos worshippers dedicated to a specific god led by space marines from the legion dedicated to said god.
You can hate this all you like, but it is actually bringing the army closer to its fluff portrayal and creating a force that manages to avoid many of the problems that have traditionally plagued space marine armies.
Also, am I the only one who finds it entirely reasonable rubrics are unable to use plasma weapons? These are really temperamental weapons that require a great deal of attention to avoid blowing up in your face. A rubric can't do that by default and it seems reasonable that level of micromanagement is beyond a sorcerer. I'd argue the same for weapons which require repeated complex choices like combi weapons (that aren't two bolters strapped together obviously) and missile launchers that can fire different types of rounds.
One does not preclude the other, I've said I like tzaangors repeatedly but also want more thousand sons units, units that by all rights should already be there.
And yes I disagree that rubrics can't use plasma weapons etc. They can fight in close combat, change mags etc. So changing a fire mode or changing a missile requires no less thought than anything else they have been shown to do, the only reason that sekmets don't have the option for combi weapons is that they were not modeled with the option, the same reason that cataphractii don't have them and can only take a heavy Flamer, it's that stupid policy again.
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SilverAlien wrote: Yeah, I think the idea tzaangors would lose access to the thousand son keyword fairly absurd, given everything we've seen. It's basically a one in a million chance and even then I'd be betting on a FAQ to change it shortly after.
Really it just comes down to adjusting to what the lore is. The specialized cult legions are going to gradually shift to something close to their fluff equivalent, which is not solely as a legion of space marines but instead as warbands of chaos worshippers dedicated to a specific god led by space marines from the legion dedicated to said god.
You can hate this all you like, but it is actually bringing the army closer to its fluff portrayal and creating a force that manages to avoid many of the problems that have traditionally plagued space marine armies.
Also, am I the only one who finds it entirely reasonable rubrics are unable to use plasma weapons? These are really temperamental weapons that require a great deal of attention to avoid blowing up in your face. A rubric can't do that by default and it seems reasonable that level of micromanagement is beyond a sorcerer. I'd argue the same for weapons which require repeated complex choices like combi weapons (that aren't two bolters strapped together obviously) and missile launchers that can fire different types of rounds.
It's obvious that about three of you guys are seething mad about something that is going to be universal across all four cult legions-that the majority of the power-armored marines in each force are going to be the traditional specialized units unique to those cults, without the versatility of the specialized heavy weapon and assault/jump pack squads of loyalist marines or standard Chaos marine forces.
They also, at least for Thousand Sons and Death Guard (so far), have both Terminators with unique gear, and non-Marine units that are unique to those forces. It just is what it is. Doubtless World Eaters and Emperor's Children will, too.
I am not seething mad, more disapointed that GW has wasted yet another opertunity to expand a faction based on "no model, no rules", then it makes less sense as the models exist and we can just convert them to fit these roles, but as a "rubric Havoc squad" doesnt exist, we wont get it, I like that we are getting Tzaangors to boost the faction, but not more options for thousand sons in a thousand sons codex.
On the other hand, the TS just got a huge pile of brand new models (most of which are 'thousand sons marines') just about 15 months ago. Given the current limits on model production, expecting even more seems unreasonable. Particularly in the middle of the codex rush, where most armies aren't getting anything at all, and even special snowflake marines are effectively getting shoulder pads and a lieutenant.
It's obvious that about three of you guys are seething mad about something that is going to be universal across all four cult legions-that the majority of the power-armored marines in each force are going to be the traditional specialized units unique to those cults, without the versatility of the specialized heavy weapon and assault/jump pack squads of loyalist marines or standard Chaos marine forces.
They also, at least for Thousand Sons and Death Guard (so far), have both Terminators with unique gear, and non-Marine units that are unique to those forces. It just is what it is. Doubtless World Eaters and Emperor's Children will, too.
I am not seething mad, more disapointed that GW has wasted yet another opertunity to expand a faction based on "no model, no rules", then it makes less sense as the models exist and we can just convert them to fit these roles, but as a "rubric Havoc squad" doesnt exist, we wont get it, I like that we are getting Tzaangors to boost the faction, but not more options for thousand sons in a thousand sons codex.
On the other hand, the TS just got a huge pile of brand new models (most of which are 'thousand sons marines') just about 15 months ago. Given the current limits on model production, expecting even more seems unreasonable. Particularly in the middle of the codex rush, where most armies aren't getting anything at all, and even special snowflake marines are effectively getting shoulder pads and a lieutenant.
Nooooo for crying out loud, I have to repeatedly say this, OPTIONS MAN, I am not asking for new models, I am asking for OPTIONS, give Tsons rubric heavy support units and special weapon squads, the models are already there we just need the codex entry.
It really is that simple and it's all I want... well that and for the codex to at least explain how they replenish numbers and recruit, fill in the gaps so to speak.
nintura wrote:And that's our point.... why can't they have made more units before making the codex....
Yes. Even if they don't have direct models available. Allow for conversions. But no models = no rules.
Crimson wrote:
They could have. But then you probably would not be getting to codex now. Or ever. It is about how much of their production capacity GW is willing to dedicate for a minor faction. But if you wouldn't refuse to take half of the units available to you TS would have reasonable amount of stuff.
So.... people get to pay full price for something that's half-baked at best? Yay?
Caederes wrote: Yes, 8th is the edition of hordes. Also yes, a semi-elite army like Eldar can do extremely well.
A 'semi-elite' army like eldar..... What goes for eldar, is that they're all specialists. For their points, a unit does what it does and it does it extremely well. It doesn't pay +5 points per model for +1 ws. *that's* what makes a 'semi-elite' army like eldar so effective. That and developer love. I've got nothing against eldar per se, but i can't help but note that they've had consistently good rules compared to other armies since i've been playing (back in 1st edition).
Caederes wrote:Rubric Marines could become fairly competitive choices like we're seeing from Primaris with just a few changes, i.e. points drop for both the regular Rubricae and the Aspiring Sorcerer, a rework of the Aspiring Sorcerer to be able to use powers other than Smite, changes to how Perils affects the army (i.e. ignoring Perils on a given roll) and a good Legion trait to supplement the unit. Stratagems can also completely redeem the unit; take the Chaos Daemons codex as an example of making otherwise mediocre or non-competitive choices (Flamers, Bloodthirsters, etc) absolutely deadly.
You're saying the 1ksons might be as competitive as the new primaris marines? With a few hypothetical changes? I'm not going to insert sarcasm here, but the urge is strong. *breathes in deep* I'm just going to quote this, and move on.
AegisGrimm wrote:*Sigh* This entire thread is so circular.......
It's obvious that about three of you guys are seething mad about something that is going to be universal across all four cult legions-that the majority of the power-armored marines in each force are going to be the traditional specialized units unique to those cults, without the versatility of the specialized heavy weapon and assault/jump pack squads of loyalist marines or standard Chaos marine forces.
They also, at least for Thousand Sons and Death Guard (so far), have both Terminators with unique gear, and non-Marine units that are unique to those forces. It just is what it is. Doubtless World Eaters and Emperor's Children will, too.
It's going to be universal, therefore people shouldn't be upset? What i take from this as a thousand sons fan, is that death guard got screwed. But we can look forwards to 2 new factions that'll be equally shafted? But i do agree - it just is what it is. I don't for a second think that's right, but as you say, it just is what it is.
SilverAlien wrote:Yeah, I think the idea tzaangors would lose access to the thousand son keyword fairly absurd, given everything we've seen. It's basically a one in a million chance and even then I'd be betting on a FAQ to change it shortly after.
So.... you think the tzaangors will get 'all is dust'? Or are you saying that units in the 1ksons *codex* will get the rules needed to field them from that codex and have a battleforged compliant army? The former is just a no, the latter is: oh god, i'm tripping balls. Tzaangors will *never* be 1ksons marine units. They can add dwarves from AoS to the codex at this point, they won't be 1ksons units. Which is a problem if you like 1ksons.
It's obvious that about three of you guys are seething mad about something that is going to be universal across all four cult legions-that the majority of the power-armored marines in each force are going to be the traditional specialized units unique to those cults, without the versatility of the specialized heavy weapon and assault/jump pack squads of loyalist marines or standard Chaos marine forces.
They also, at least for Thousand Sons and Death Guard (so far), have both Terminators with unique gear, and non-Marine units that are unique to those forces. It just is what it is. Doubtless World Eaters and Emperor's Children will, too.
What's wrong with that? For the prices people are paying, i think they have the right to be "seething mad". They get *terminators*? Ho ho, i'm laughing here more than you can realise. But yeah it is what it is. Welcome to GW. Hello world eaters and emperor's children fans - bend over, and be prepared to pay through the nose for the experience you're about to get.
Formosa wrote:Nooooo for crying out loud, I have to repeatedly say this, OPTIONS MAN, I am not asking for new models, I am asking for OPTIONS, give Tsons rubric heavy support units and special weapon squads, the models are already there we just need the codex entry.
It really is that simple and it's all I want... well that and for the codex to at least explain how they replenish numbers and recruit, fill in the gaps so to speak.
And that there is the big thing. No models, no rules. Pay up! Welcome to gw. I hear stockholm syndrome thrown around a lot in this hhhoby, but i'll tell you what. There are times when it seems pretty much believable.
Guys, I understand. You wanted more TS options and more TS models.
But how many more time are you gonna be in phase 1 and 2? I assume you'll skip phase 3, and better to skip 4 too, so is better if you just go to phase 5 already
Galas wrote: Guys, I understand. You wanted more TS options and more TS models.
It's a TS codex. Is the disappointment really that hard to understand?
Galas wrote: But how many more time are you gonna be in phase 1 and 2? I assume you'll skip phase 3, and better to skip 4 too, so is better if you just go to phase 5 already
I sit comfortably in phase 0. I'd like to get to phase 1, but i need some sort of incentive for that. The sort of incentive only the devs (gw) can provide. Otherwise i have better ways to spend my time/money.
I do think that alot of people here are not quite on the same page in regards to the Thousand Sons.
Seems like half are excited and think it will be cool and the other half have already thrown out the army as trash tier before getting a single codex leak.
Also as for one more thing:
Torga_Dw, I dont know about these mythical "competitive Primaris" lists you are talking about. I have never had any trouble with my Thousand Sons with the INDEX against a codex army of Primaris space marines. They are truly unimpressive.
Unless your taking Guilliman which is a totally different dynamic due to his ability to hide.
If the Rubrics get a discount (which I can see happening logically asserting points drop as per all other books) we can assume a rubric being 17-19 after bolter in our book. I would imagine 18 to be exact even with a Intercessor.
That + Strategems + Legion Tactic + Warlord trait + any spell buffs we will get + Aura effects.....we will be fine. Rubrics should be fairly dangerous with all of these benefits stacking. I would imagine as far as "marines" in 8th edition go (which are to be fair mediocre in most circumstances mathematically) they will be the top of that pile, or near to it.
Galas wrote: Guys, I understand. You wanted more TS options and more TS models.
It's a TS codex. Is the disappointment really that hard to understand?
Galas wrote: But how many more time are you gonna be in phase 1 and 2? I assume you'll skip phase 3, and better to skip 4 too, so is better if you just go to phase 5 already
I sit comfortably in phase 0. I'd like to get to phase 1, but i need some sort of incentive for that. The sort of incentive only the devs (gw) can provide. Otherwise i have better ways to spend my time/money.
I understand the disappointment. I don't understand why people is disappointed after ALL the previous evidence in 8th edition about how the Codex Releases work for 90% of the Codex's. Is like something having a 5% chance to ocurr, and with all previous data pointing the contrary, people still want to believe that it is gonna happen. And with it doesn't, they get angry and upset and dissapointed. Why are you doing this to yourself?
And I don't know whats phase 0. I was talking about the Kübler-Ross model.
7th: Ahirman, Magnus, Scarab occult, Rubrics, exalted sorcerers, so 2 Thousand sons units, 2 special characters and TSon sculpts for a unit we have always had, but welcome none the less!
8th: Ahirman, Magnus, Scarab occult, Rubrics, Exalted Sorcerers, so same number of thousand sons units as 7th, still lack thousand sons heavies, fast attack (not sure how they would fit here).
Tzaangors are not Thousand sons, they are in the codex, that is it, I even bet they will lack the "thousand sons" keyword.
Oh lord. Tzaangors are exclusive to Thousand Sons and, in the Index, literally have the "Thousand Sons" keyword. What codex do you see Tzaangor units popping up in after Thousand Sons considering every possible codex they could have been in has already been released? They are units exclusive to Thousand Sons. They are units that no other army gets. As someone else said, I'll take your bet. You'll owe me big time when all is said and done.
Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
1.) We know way more then that as of right now 3 Tzaangor units are being added, Skyfires, Enlightened, and Shaman, plus the Mutalith which will probably do the same thing it does in AoS which is create spawns while doing mortal wounds and Reduce LD of enemy units.
2.) I'm saying after the codex drops these changes will occur so your fine until then
3.) We don't know enough...
Here is what I know...
Games workshop is a business, and they are trying to make money
They make money by selling models
They sell models by making them worth buying
People buy models they don't already have
Changes to smite are "going to be tested"
Conclusion, smite changes go through Rubrics become ineffective in large numbers of small units, and really only work as large blocks of 10-20 models. Now there is a reason to buy more efficient models, what models do we have, Tzaangors 3 different units NEW to the army after this Codex drops.
Problems Tzaangors currently have are Ld kinda low and susceptible to morale losses, little to no range capabilities, no transports for 20+ squads, slightly expensive for horde armies, no heavy hitters
Solutions; Make Shamans add/Mitigate LD/ morale losses and cast spells, Add Skyfires to give ranged options, have Enlightened for heavy hits (probably on the charge) add psyker abilities, Mutalith will function as a screen to give Tzaangors time to move into combat and create new models (more spawn).
But lets assume they do some changes if they reduce the points cost your not getting the ability to cast spells other then mini smite, and your going to be wasting points on having a Psyker that can't Psyk. If you do get the ability to cast spells then your not getting a points drop and still risk blowing yourself up.
That means reduce the number of Psykers from Rubric Squads as much as possible, no matter what.
Ummm......do you lack reading comprehension skills? Because the three things I said we know for sure about the Thousand Sons codex are what you literally just wrote to me despite you also saying "we know way more than that". For goodness sake, why do I even bother!?
Again, how the hell do you know these changes you alone are stating as fact are anything more than your own baseless claims? We know NOTHING about the rule changes this codex will offer, yet here you are saying "this will be the case", "this unit will suck", etc when you have zero authority on the matter. Like any codex, the Index versions could very well be a bare imitation of the eventual "real thing".
Oh god, this logic.....history has proven the "new model, make it broken" theory has holes in it. Look at the Maleceptor. Look at the Scarab Occult. Look at Inceptors. Look at the Slaughterbrute. There are dozens of units that have been garbage upon their introduction to the game, only to either be left in a bad state or fixed later (Inceptors in particular have been redeemed from their original incarnation). It's not a great indicator of anything, as Tyranid players in particular will tell you.
The Smite changes could be nullified on the part of Rubrics with the addition of spell lores to the Aspiring Sorcerers' repertoire, it's what kept them semi-relevant in 7th Edition and in 8th Edition it could help them out big time by at least giving them something decent to cast every turn. If Thousand Sons get two spell lores as some have predicted, Ahriman, Magnus and one or two Exalted/regular Sorcerers won't be enough to cast all those powers plus the full Smites themselves, giving Aspiring and Scarab Occult Sorcerers some added utility. But hey, let's just assume the absolute worst and treat it like gospel, eh?
You want to know what's funny about your logic with GW trying to force us to buy, in your words, "more efficient models"? Said models do not fill the same roles that Rubrics/Scarab Occult/Exalteds/Magnus/Ahriman/etc fill. Rubrics are elite infantry, Tzaangors are fodder infantry. Different roles that can complement each other if both units are balanced right, which is the hope with the new codex. Enlightened are likely to be dedicated melee specialists, Skyfires are likely to be dedicated shooting, but Scarab Occult are the middle-ground that's good at both. Different roles. Tzaangor Shamans, if you look at their AOS rules, won't be as gifted as Ahriman and likely will be a lesser psyker than even a regular Sorcerer, but will be balanced by their mobility and probable Tzaangor-specific buffs, whereas Ahriman and Exalted Sorcerers are powerful psykers with buffs that are universal to Thousand Sons. Different roles. The Mutalith is a big beast but, based on what we know from AOS and can reasonably assume, it won't be a power-house like Magnus, but probably something more in line with either the Tyranid Malaceptor or Tyranid Carnifexes; Magnus is a psychic beat-stick, whereas the Mutalith will probably fit the good old "distraction Carnifex" mold. Different roles. You don't know for certain that points efficiency will dictate the necessitated usage of the Tzaangor units over the Thousand Sons units, especially as the differing roles of each individual unit gives them a special place in any given list, yet you proclaim it like fact and that's honestly pathetic.
Skyfires aren't there to "give Tzaangors more shooting", they are there to give Thousand Sons players a mobile ranged unit in their own codex that may or may not have sniper capabilities. Shamans being there to buff Tzaangor units does not exclude the codex from making changes to Exalted Sorcerers to provide a specific buff to Rubric Marines and Scarab Occult. The Mutalith Vortex Beast isn't there to "function as a screen to give Tzaangors time", it's there to give Thousand Sons an extra monster to play around with that can take fire from the rest of the army, i.e. your elite Rubrics, Magnus, etc. The amount of wilful ignorance you are spouting on this forum is beyond the realm of absurd
Again, how do you know that they won't make net positive adjustments to Rubric Marines? I am beyond sick of this attitude, so I'm going to spell it out for you so you can understand;
You. Do. Not. Know. For. A. Fact. That. The. Changes. You. Think. Will. Happen. Will. Actually. Happen. As. You. Have. No. Proof. To. Back. Up. Any. Of. Your. Claims.
Cheers
Torga_DW wrote:
A 'semi-elite' army like eldar..... What goes for eldar, is that they're all specialists. For their points, a unit does what it does and it does it extremely well. It doesn't pay +5 points per model for +1 ws. *that's* what makes a 'semi-elite' army like eldar so effective. That and developer love. I've got nothing against eldar per se, but i can't help but note that they've had consistently good rules compared to other armies since i've been playing (back in 1st edition).
You're saying the 1ksons might be as competitive as the new primaris marines? With a few hypothetical changes? I'm not going to insert sarcasm here, but the urge is strong. *breathes in deep* I'm just going to quote this, and move on.
Plague Marines are proof that you don't need to be a specialist to be competitive, so I'll leave that one aside. Being specialists does not automatically make a unit competitive per your logic. Eldar specialists were non-competitive in the Index, until massive points reductions and rules tweaks drastically improved the lot of pretty much the entire codex. Your logic is flawed, straight out of the gate. Any unit can be good if it has the right points cost and workable rules. Rubric Marines are functionally a tough infantry unit with decent shooting, fixing the few issues they have isn't hard.
No, that's not what I was saying and thank you for taking my words completely out of context I was replying to a person that outright stated elite armies suck in 8th Edition. I offered an obvious counter-point; elite armies can succeed in 8th Edition, as evidenced by Primaris and Eldar. The archetypal competitive list of 8th Edition is cheap screening units surrounding/protecting the real heavy hitters. Rubric Marines aren't necessarily heavy hitters but if they get some needed improvements they can fill the role they're intended to fill; offering a surprisingly decent firebase that is very difficult to shift from an objective.
Seriously, this thread is really making me question my faith in the Warhammer community. Jesus Christ. The amount of whining about information we don't have and assuming the absolute worst with no basis in fact is driving me insane.
get the <chapter>/<legion> specific rules. Rhinos, predators, landraiders - they're all "generic".
