Pleasepleasepleaseplease take the opportunity to ground-up redesign SfD into something, ANYTHING else...I'm so sick and tired of all my pan-eldar gak getting endlessly whined about because of this utterly braindead game mechanic.
I mean, they are not that different from Assassins, if you think about it:
Assassins are a few characters which can be used in a force with "imperium" keyword - Ynnari are a few characters usable in an aeldary force. The only difference would be that coven units etc. would still be excluded and that Ynnari bring their own Psychic disciplin.
Maybe they even get some nifty strategems as well....to compensate for the possible nerfs .
Waaaghbert wrote: I mean, they are not that different from Assassins, if you think about it:
Assassins are a few characters which can be used in a force with "imperium" keyword - Ynnari are a few characters usable in an aeldary force. The only difference would be that coven units etc. would still be excluded and that Ynnari bring their own Psychic disciplin.
Maybe they even get some nifty strategems as well....to compensate for the possible nerfs .
I have a horrible feeling that GW is going to completely ignore the fact that they've been dominating the competitive meta for the entirety of their existence since 7th and they're just going to slap together a few stratagems in an afternoon and call it a day.
"Ya know what would be real super fluffy? A 1cp stratagem to allow a unit to SFD a second time in a turn!!!
drakerocket wrote: Yeah, it's a real shame to have a single other force which can give imperial soup a run for its money. Let's go ahead and remove that!
I'm not sure if you're beeing sarcastic....of course imperial soup needs nerfs as well, but you have to start somewhere.
Bharring wrote: "And instead of doing actions twice, it would be cool is it was just bonuses to wound or +1 attack (including Ranged attacks) or something like that "
PleaseOhPleaseOhPlease.
Don't see how "shooting twice" and "+1 ranged attack" would be any different when reapers are killing me from a table away.
but at this point I wouldn't be surprised if they went: "People seem to love that three Ynnari models we made once and had like half a page of rules for. They don't seem to stop playing with them. Maybe we could give them a little more rules to make them even more interesting!"
I mean, Tyranids haven't had a single model or rule release since 2014 but they should wait in line for those three Eldar models and a cat to get another update first.
I'd rather face something with +1 attack than having two shooting phases. It's not much of an improvement, but the toning-down and removal of extra actions would be a huge step in the right direction.
(Also, Reapers typically use a Heavy:2 profile, so +1A even on ranged attacks is only a 50% increase, whereas shooting twice is a 100% increase.)
Bharring wrote: Also, Reapers typically use a Heavy:2 profile, so +1A even on ranged attacks is only a 50% increase, whereas shooting twice is a 100% increase.
Bharring wrote: I'd rather face something with +1 attack than having two shooting phases. It's not much of an improvement, but the toning-down and removal of extra actions would be a huge step in the right direction.
(Also, Reapers typically use a Heavy:2 profile, so +1A even on ranged attacks is only a 50% increase, whereas shooting twice is a 100% increase.)
It would also mean having to shoot the same target, or targets rather than resolving the first action before declaring the second.
Streamlined and requiring tactical thought over complicated point and click.
But however they implement changes, YNNARI needs to NOT be a faction keyword that all flavors of Aeldari can have. Just allow the 3 Ynnari Characters be added to any Aeldari army, make SFD an aura buff that those characters bring, along with some Strats.
Tyranids waiting on Eldar?
Since 7th for Tyranids:
Maleceptor
Toxicrene
Sporocyst
Tyrannocyte
Neurothrope
Zoanthrope
Venomthrope
Broodlord
Craftworlds:
Eldrad
Autarch
SpiritSeer
Sure, Eldar also got Ynnari. But how does that compare to *GeneStealerCults*?
Despite all the amazing rules, Eldar have gotten crap for new kits in the past decade. Not as bad off as SOB, sure. But one of the oldest lines out there.
Bharring wrote: Those other Eldar are Incubi (and the current kit), right? Perhaps it's just the paintjob mixed with my hopes...
I'm not sure either way honestly; that pose on the one clearly visible at the left doesn't really align to any pose I can see from their store page and the Incubi are still a resin kit making them a candidate for replacement. At the same time, it could simply be perspective tricks and relatively simple adjustments on those particular models in terms of pose.
I kind of hope they aren't a new kit though, because the screeching that would ensue if Incubi got a plastic kit before any of the (non-Dire Avenger) Aspect Warriors would probably deafen a large number of people who happened to be standing around GW stores.
As a craftworld player I would like to see it nerfed into oblivion or moved into where it belongs along with all soup; Narrative play.
Its a line of 1 kit box which makes 3 models. It should not be a friggin faction..
I dont like how CA has points increased a lot of my stuff just ebcause they are broken when used in a ynnari list...
Bharring wrote: Tyranids waiting on Eldar?
Since 7th for Tyranids:
Maleceptor
Toxicrene
Sporocyst
Tyrannocyte
Neurothrope
Zoanthrope
Venomthrope
Broodlord
Craftworlds:
Eldrad
Autarch
SpiritSeer
Sure, Eldar also got Ynnari. But how does that compare to *GeneStealerCults*?
Despite all the amazing rules, Eldar have gotten crap for new kits in the past decade. Not as bad off as SOB, sure. But one of the oldest lines out there.
Most of my army is still finecast/metal-only.
Genestealer Cults are not Tyranids. Same way Death Guard are not CSM and Primaris aren't Grey Knights. Also, didn't Eldar get new jetbike kit as well? Aspect warriors are in a sad position modelwise, but since they tend to rock the meta every single edition, it's something I guess.
Anything is better than what we have at this point. Would love some real strats, warlord traits, and fix the SFD so everyone that plays against them will stop complaining.
Cult of My Boy Blue wrote: Anything is better than what we have at this point. Would love some real strats, warlord traits, and fix the SFD so everyone that plays against them will stop complaining.
*Fix SFD so everyone gets to play the same amount of turns in a game.
Bharring wrote: Tyranids waiting on Eldar?
Since 7th for Tyranids:
Maleceptor
Toxicrene
Sporocyst
Tyrannocyte
Neurothrope
Zoanthrope
Venomthrope
Broodlord
Craftworlds:
Eldrad
Autarch
SpiritSeer
Sure, Eldar also got Ynnari. But how does that compare to *GeneStealerCults*?
Despite all the amazing rules, Eldar have gotten crap for new kits in the past decade. Not as bad off as SOB, sure. But one of the oldest lines out there.
Most of my army is still finecast/metal-only.
Plastic Windrunners & Skyrunners came out after most of those Tyranid releases. Most of which are dual (or even triple) kits too.
Sure Eldar have some old models, but there's not as mistreated as you're making them out to sound.
Edit: New Wraithguard, Wraithknights and a flyer kit came out a about a year before 7E. Pretty sure that's still within the last decade.
Here's hoping! That one page in the index, which I gather was never even playtested, has done so much harm to the game. A fix has been desperately needed ever since.
I wouldn't be surprised if this update just made things worse though, by reprinting those rules along with some relics, traits and stratagems. But then I'm a cynic... which doesn't mean I'm wrong!
I was thinking the Jetbike resculpts were 6th, but you're right, they're 7th. Decent models, but the old ones were decent too.
I get that GSC aren't Nids, just like Ynnari are CWE or CWE aren't Ynnari - either way, Nids are a little better off than CWE recently. And it's almost impossible to compare to Ynnari - which was a single 3-model release.
Automatically Appended Next Post: "Edit: New Wraithguard, Wraithknights and a flyer kit came out a about a year before 7E. Pretty sure that's still within the last decade."
In the same timeframe, Nids got the Crone, Haruspex, Exocrine, Harpy, Hive Guard, Tyrant Guard, Warriors, and Old One Eye.
The CWE and Nid releases since 6th do seem fairly even.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Aspect dual kits is something I would want for Eldar players.
To be honest I'm shocked they didn't do that for Windriders and Shining Spears.
Agreed, however I fear the "age of dual kits" is over for GW. There really haven't been many dual kits in the last few years. At this point, not only would I be surprised to see Aspects as dual kits, I'd actually be surprised to see them updated in plastic at all.
At the time the Windrider kit came out, Shining Spears were worse than ASM are now - most players simply ignored the fact the entry existed.
The Windrider kit was a slight improvement on looks, adding Scatter Lasers, and allowing more than 1 in 3 to take the Shuriken Cannon - the Shining Spear upgrade kit works just as well on the new kit as the old.
(Kitbashes make better Shining Spears than the upgrade kit, though.)
Biggest concern here is this means no codex. However, if they make Ynnari playable without being obnoxious I'd be super happy. I like the models but dont play them because they are just a pain and have had so many rule changes.
bullyboy wrote: Biggest concern here is this means no codex. However, if they make Ynnari playable without being obnoxious I'd be super happy. I like the models but dont play them because they are just a pain and have had so many rule changes.
Yeah, if they make the Ynnari Characters playable in the same way as Assassins, in that they don't NEED a Codex, I'd be quite happy
Maybe they rewrite SfD to something more like the Ork Freebootaz trait. Meaning if one of your units kill something then every other freeboota (or ynnari in this case) unit within 24" gets a +1 to hit that phase.
It's really powerful considering elves start out hitting at 3+/3+ instead of 3+/5+ like orks so the range of the ability might have to go down a bit. Something along those line would still be easy to grasp and seems a lot more "fair" than the current system.
Shadenuat wrote: I heard Khorne in AoS has something like gathering points for kills and then exchanging them for summons/buffs or something, that would fit more.
I could see lists with Ynnari gaining a CP each time they destroy a unit. Although it would make them much less competitive in organized events that enforce the "only regen/gain 1 CP pre turn" rules
1) My initial theory has been that Eldar would get an Ynnari-based re-release, and it would supplant classic Craftworld Eldar and would be the "Primarisation" of the Eldar line. I'm quite convinced this is why the bulk and primary infantry models from the Eldar have been ignored for 10-15 years...other kits longer.
2) An Ynnari Index article means that it either won't happen, or is further out than expected and this is a stop-gap measure.
3) I very much hope Ynnari are reduced and limited. Craftworld units are paying through the nose for the borderline game-breaking stuff Ynnari brings to the table. The soup-penalties are really piss poor game design, and Ynnari are at the core of that. I'm extra biased because I think the Ynnari models and fluff are pretty weak-dick and don't add anything to the story.
4) Nice to see the promise of Xenos articles - I would "LOVE" to see Eldar craftworlds (the classic five) fleshed out in the way Crimson Fists were in the earlier issue. While not making Crimson Fists crazy powerful, the combination of their Index article with the Specialist Detachment gave them loads of character/flavor. I think the Eldar codex ranks very low on the "how passionate were your codex designers" threshhold. While the book is strong enough on its own, it's a super boring book with very little character, particularly between the various Craftworlds.
Shadenuat wrote: I heard Khorne in AoS has something like gathering points for kills and then exchanging them for summons/buffs or something, that would fit more.
That'd be a fantastic thing, especially if they were powers focused on the 3 ynnari Hero models, like Powers of the C'tan that could then be only used when you accumulate "kill points" from your Ynnari units.
Give 3 generic powers, and 1 power to each of the Ynnari heroes that only they can use.
Note the following is completely made up by me, not a rumor, so should only be taken with the same size grain of salt you reserve for BOLS rumors.
Spoiler:
You can still (as now) declare a detachment of harlequins, wych cult, kabal, or Craftworld to be Ynnari, which enables you to take those 3 models as HQ and replaces <Craftworld> <Kabal> <Wych Cult> or <Masque>. Ynnari units grant you Soul Points when they die, or when they kill the last model in an enemy unit during the fight, shooting or psychic phase. Any Ynnari HQ model can spend Soul Points.
Ideas for Strength From Death Powers:
Soul Surge (2 SP): If within 1" of enemy models the model may pile in and fight as if it were the fight phase, or if not within 1" of enemy models the model may move as if it were the movement phase.
Ancestors' Knowledge (1SP): Use this power in the Psychic phase. The Ynnari HQ model may use any one psychic power from the Runes of Battle, Runes of Fate, or Phantasmancy Disciplines in addition to any other psychic powers they can normally cast.
Word of the Pheonix (3SP): Choose a Ynnari HQ model that has been slain. Bring the model back with D3 wounds remaining anywhere over 9" from enemy models.
That would actually be similar to the ancient 2nd edition rules, lol. CSM forces used to acquire summoning points by doing X, Y and Z (according to their chosen God), and would then exchange points to summon --- they could also sacrifice champions who would explode into greater daemons, etc.
If eldar get Ynnarised even more It would suck IMO.
What Craftworlds sadly need is plastic aspect warriors, and new phoenix lords with resonable points/rules.
Those sculpt sare some 20+ year old now ? They have not aged well at all...
There is so mch potential for new fluff and models. There could be some far flung exodite empire coming from the fringes of the galaxy whatevs... Space elves riding dinosaurs? Gime that shiz... SPace pirate elves gunslinging? yes please.
Like look at shadow specter sculpts. They dont really look like eldar. But look like what eldar should be i think.
I was honestly expecting to see new aspect warriors as some kind of Kill Team themed release at some point. They're pretty much ideal for it.
Bharring wrote: In the same timeframe, Nids got ... Old One Eye.
Funnily enough, Old One Eye was actually "unreleased" around this time. GW retired the 3E sculpt and just told everyone to make OOE using specific bits in the existing Carnifex kit.
"Space elves riding dinosaurs?"
So many kitbash options. So little time. No faith in GW doing it right.
"SPace pirate elves gunslinging?"
FW did that. Lots of that. Lots of awesome. 8E killed all but the most basic models, though.
"Like look at shadow specter sculpts. They dont really look like eldar. But look like what eldar should be i think."
Aspects are all supposed to be different. I'd love it if GW would introduce a few more out-there ones. Even if, rules wise, they'd basically be redundant (or even share data sheets with current units). But I'm wishlisting.
"I was honestly expecting to see new aspect warriors as some kind of Kill Team themed release at some point."
There is so much potential in Kill Team. Instead of all that potential, they decided we wanted more monopose models and special characters.
Because nothing says "my models" like "are assembled exactly this way and are named exactly this way with exactly this backstory".
I'm of the opinion that Ynnead and the dead should have been left in the fluff, that was some end time stuff related to the Rhana Dandra and it still doesn't sit right with me that Ynnead just woke up early.
Hoping for a small supplement, I don't enjoy their lore or the one rule that everyone hates nor do I want further merging of the Eldar Dark Eldar fluff.
That picture is old.... that's from when they renamed them and combined them with the Saint Celestine, Belisarius Cawl and Inquisitor Greyfaxin the "Gathering Storm" three pack with the dawn of the Primus. They came out with the Webways around that time.... "Gathering Storm; Fall of Cadia started it all off.... THEN, they had the Slanish thing going on that combined the Eldar…. into whatever they are calling them now... last of 7th, beginning of 8th editions. Triumvirate of Ynnead is what I looked up....
Grot 6 wrote: That picture is old.... that's from when they renamed them and combined them with the Saint Celestine, Belisarius Cawl and Inquisitor Greyfaxin the "Gathering Storm" three pack with the dawn of the Primus. They came out with the Webways around that time.... "Gathering Storm; Fall of Cadia started it all off.... THEN, they had the Slanish thing going on that combined the Eldar…. into whatever they are calling them now... last of 7th, beginning of 8th editions. Triumvirate of Ynnead is what I looked up....
Except the webway models haven't even been out a year. They came out with Harlequins codex.
it is good to keep in mind that technically the rules for Ynnari are no longer available as the Index is no longer being sold on Games Worshop's website. Even Warhammer Digital only has Index: Imperium 2. So this could be - for all we know - a reprint of the index for those who want a copy of it plus FAQ info, and nothing more.
Eldarsif wrote: it is good to keep in mind that technically the rules for Ynnari are no longer available as the Index is no longer being sold on Games Worshop's website. Even Warhammer Digital only has Index: Imperium 2. So this could be - for all we know - a reprint of the index for those who want a copy of it plus FAQ info, and nothing more.
It could be... but why would they advertise that on the back of the magazine? Every issue so far since the relaunch has included either a 40k mini-codex or a warscroll battalion for AoS Sigmarines, alternating each month, and each month the next month's content has been teased on the back cover.
Bharring wrote: They have every single model in the Ynnari line on one cover!
All 3 of them.
They have a cat though. Almost as good as a good boy doggo!
Bharring wrote: Tyranids waiting on Eldar?
Since 7th for Tyranids:
Maleceptor
Toxicrene
Sporocyst
Tyrannocyte
Neurothrope
Zoanthrope
Venomthrope
Broodlord
Craftworlds:
Eldrad
Autarch
SpiritSeer
Sure, Eldar also got Ynnari. But how does that compare to *GeneStealerCults*?
Despite all the amazing rules, Eldar have gotten crap for new kits in the past decade. Not as bad off as SOB, sure. But one of the oldest lines out there.
Most of my army is still finecast/metal-only.
Oh stop it both of you. Sisters of Battle.
Red_Five wrote: Eldar are the last major army to have a ton of finecast remaining. Just about every other army is 90+% plastic that this point.
Sisters of Battle are already confirmed to be getting updated. We have seen the sculpts. You might as well complain that Havocs still need an update because they aren't out until next week.
Bharring wrote: They have every single model in the Ynnari line on one cover!
All 3 of them.
They have a cat though. Almost as good as a good boy doggo!
Bharring wrote: Tyranids waiting on Eldar?
Since 7th for Tyranids:
Maleceptor
Toxicrene
Sporocyst
Tyrannocyte
Neurothrope
Zoanthrope
Venomthrope
Broodlord
Craftworlds:
Eldrad
Autarch
SpiritSeer
Sure, Eldar also got Ynnari. But how does that compare to *GeneStealerCults*?
Despite all the amazing rules, Eldar have gotten crap for new kits in the past decade. Not as bad off as SOB, sure. But one of the oldest lines out there.
Most of my army is still finecast/metal-only.
Oh stop it both of you. Sisters of Battle.
Red_Five wrote: Eldar are the last major army to have a ton of finecast remaining. Just about every other army is 90+% plastic that this point.
See above.
GW has literally shown us renders of the Sisters of Battle models they are making in plastic. They are coming out this year. You have to wait a few months and, boom, a whole new line of plastic nuns. Meanwhile, Eldar players are rocking 20 year old sculpts (sculpts that are, I will remind you, older than the old Sisters of Battle metal/finecast models)
But does anyone actually know if this is happening? It does seem kind of odd to single out Ynnari, instead of Rise of the Eldar, or whatever, since Ynnari use Eldar units. Unless they're pumping out exclusive units, which would be curious, to say the least. And, in my opinion, gives some hope for other minor factions (although based Corsairs will never be removed - please do not circumvent the language filter.
I suppose if Assassins can get a "codex" for 4 units then Ynarri can get a "codex" for 3 units. Hopefully we'll get a 2 unit codex and then a 1 unit codex after that!
Kirasu wrote: I suppose if Assassins can get a "codex" for 4 units then Ynarri can get a "codex" for 3 units. Hopefully we'll get a 2 unit codex and then a 1 unit codex after that!
Then a 0 unit codex! We can call it a background book or something.
Galef wrote: So when does this WD come out? It's April already. Or is this for the May issue?
It's the may issue. It's the leaked "coming next White Dwarf" final page from the April White Dwarf.
Thank you, this is very helpful
EDIT: I just realized that the Ynnari update would be a GREAT opportunity to update the Webway Gate rules (I mean it's in the background of the teaser pic and everything) That thing needs a complete rules overhaul as it is currently unplayable unless you and your opponent lay down some ground rules prior to setting up terrain. Then add the fact that the WWG stratagems are only available if you've taken a Harlie detachment for some reason
Kirasu wrote: I suppose if Assassins can get a "codex" for 4 units then Ynarri can get a "codex" for 3 units. Hopefully we'll get a 2 unit codex and then a 1 unit codex after that!
Remember the original codex Imperial Knights? 2 unit codex, basicly the same model.
Galef wrote: So when does this WD come out? It's April already. Or is this for the May issue?
It's the may issue. It's the leaked "coming next White Dwarf" final page from the April White Dwarf.
Thank you, this is very helpful
EDIT: I just realized that the Ynnari update would be a GREAT opportunity to update the Webway Gate rules (I mean it's in the background of the teaser pic and everything)
That thing needs a complete rules overhaul as it is currently unplayable unless you and your opponent lay down some ground rules prior to setting up terrain.
Then add the fact that the WWG stratagems are only available if you've taken a Harlie detachment for some reason
-
Urban Conquest was a missed opportunity to update a lot of terrain rules to make them better.
They updated terrain rules in chapter approved, hard cover for +2 to saves, soft for +1, -1 to hit units where something is blocking line of sight to it, and a bonus to AP if you're higher than the target to force more vertical movement.
I am hoping this update is substantial, I have a mixed eldar force because I was running corsairs, so this toning down strength from death and maybe a later change to the stupid strong pistols on my corsairs (and give me back my prince you monsters!!!) Will let me run my army without feeling like an arse.
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote: They updated terrain rules in chapter approved, hard cover for +2 to saves, soft for +1, -1 to hit units where something is blocking line of sight to it, and a bonus to AP if you're higher than the target to force more vertical movement.
I am hoping this update is substantial, I have a mixed eldar force because I was running corsairs, so this toning down strength from death and maybe a later change to the stupid strong pistols on my corsairs (and give me back my prince you monsters!!!) Will let me run my army without feeling like an arse.
Cities of Death rules are *not* standard terrain rules.
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote: They updated terrain rules in chapter approved, hard cover for +2 to saves, soft for +1, -1 to hit units where something is blocking line of sight to it, and a bonus to AP if you're higher than the target to force more vertical movement.
I am hoping this update is substantial, I have a mixed eldar force because I was running corsairs, so this toning down strength from death and maybe a later change to the stupid strong pistols on my corsairs (and give me back my prince you monsters!!!) Will let me run my army without feeling like an arse.
Of course that's not standard for all game modes. And not sure how good -1 to hit's(resulting in lots of '6's) widely available is. It's bad enough as army traits.
Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote: They updated terrain rules in chapter approved, hard cover for +2 to saves, soft for +1, -1 to hit units where something is blocking line of sight to it, and a bonus to AP if you're higher than the target to force more vertical movement.
I am hoping this update is substantial, I have a mixed eldar force because I was running corsairs, so this toning down strength from death and maybe a later change to the stupid strong pistols on my corsairs (and give me back my prince you monsters!!!) Will let me run my army without feeling like an arse.
The CA Cities of Death rules are almost unchanged from whats in the BRB, and nobody used them there either.
Turning Ynnari into a White Dwarf codex means that there are no new models planned for the near-future.
Together with the recent release of the Spiritseer in Wake the Dead, I'm quite positive that they won't shelf the Craftworlds range (at least not more than currently) in favour of a new Ynnari range, like they did with many classic Fantasy ranges in Age of Sigmar (Fyreslayers and Kharadron in favour of Dispossed, Ironjawz in favour of Greenskins...).
Kirasu wrote: I suppose if Assassins can get a "codex" for 4 units then Ynarri can get a "codex" for 3 units. Hopefully we'll get a 2 unit codex and then a 1 unit codex after that!
Then a 0 unit codex! We can call it a background book or something.
Honestly a separate book for army rules and army fluff would be flipping amazing.
I have a couple of friends- well, an actual couple... and they play both varieties of the Eldar and the Ynarri is their 'team up' army, and I absolutely love playing against them.
Well, you want more in depth terrain rules, and they gave them to you.
Soft and hard cover are new, they added dangerous terrain, they gave a more standard bonus to moving on roads, and added the possible penalty to hit with giving everyone the chance to hit on a "6" because of the extra modifier in addition to giving +1 AP for height instead of ignoring cover bonuses. So no, it isn't just a reprint of the cities of death rules from.the core rule book.
These all force more tactical movement, which many feel isn't present in the game. That is a good thing and a lot of folks are ignoring it while complaining about the thing it fixes.
I think a big thing that the Ynnari Index does is that it gets the Ynnari out of the Index: Xenos book and gives them updated rules without needing to commit to a Codex and model release that they just might not be ready for.
Why couldn't they throw this into Chapter Approved? I have no clue. Either way, we have to get through April's White Dwarf before we even GET to the Ynnari Index, so it's going to be another month.
Soft and hard cover are new, they added dangerous terrain, they gave a more standard bonus to moving on roads, and added the possible penalty to hit with giving everyone the chance to hit on a "6" because of the extra modifier in addition to giving +1 AP for height instead of ignoring cover bonuses. So no, it isn't just a reprint of the cities of death rules from.the core rule book.
These all force more tactical movement, which many feel isn't present in the game. That is a good thing and a lot of folks are ignoring it while complaining about the thing it fixes.
It has huge problem with the -1 to hit. Those are awful. They hurt game so much. It's bad enough when you have -1 to hit as army trait(if it's available just take it). Now with those -1 is even more common and -2 is pretty standard as well. Have fun vs -2 and -3 without effort alaitocs. Enjoy those -2 to hit dark eldars.
Enjoy a 2+ save with terminators versus missile launchers and a 3+ versus plasma based weapons in addition to your -1 to being hit. Or sniper scouts up top dropping guardsmen almost twice as fast due to the bonus to AP.
Anyway, I am hoping for easier rules for the ynarri and maybe some stratagems for a mixed force.
Soft and hard cover are new, they added dangerous terrain, they gave a more standard bonus to moving on roads, and added the possible penalty to hit with giving everyone the chance to hit on a "6" because of the extra modifier in addition to giving +1 AP for height instead of ignoring cover bonuses. So no, it isn't just a reprint of the cities of death rules from.the core rule book.
These all force more tactical movement, which many feel isn't present in the game. That is a good thing and a lot of folks are ignoring it while complaining about the thing it fixes.
It has huge problem with the -1 to hit. Those are awful. They hurt game so much. It's bad enough when you have -1 to hit as army trait(if it's available just take it). Now with those -1 is even more common and -2 is pretty standard as well. Have fun vs -2 and -3 without effort alaitocs. Enjoy those -2 to hit dark eldars.
Modifiers stacking on a 1d6 curve is probably the biggest flaw with the new edition in terms of the basic combat engine.
Soft and hard cover are new, they added dangerous terrain, they gave a more standard bonus to moving on roads, and added the possible penalty to hit with giving everyone the chance to hit on a "6" because of the extra modifier in addition to giving +1 AP for height instead of ignoring cover bonuses. So no, it isn't just a reprint of the cities of death rules from.the core rule book.
These all force more tactical movement, which many feel isn't present in the game. That is a good thing and a lot of folks are ignoring it while complaining about the thing it fixes.
It has huge problem with the -1 to hit. Those are awful. They hurt game so much. It's bad enough when you have -1 to hit as army trait(if it's available just take it). Now with those -1 is even more common and -2 is pretty standard as well. Have fun vs -2 and -3 without effort alaitocs. Enjoy those -2 to hit dark eldars.
Yep. it also adds a basic rule that causes 6s to always hit irrespective of modifiers, and two 1CP stratagems that make a charge against a unit in a ruin almost guaranteed (1cp to ignore vertical movement entirely, 1cp to change one die to a 6 in your charge roll). It is much, much easier to get into combat with those dark reapers than it was under CoD rules.
Reapers camping on top of a ruin in CoD terrain rules are definitely very powerful. That does not make it not a much much better terrain system overall.
Soft and hard cover are new, they added dangerous terrain, they gave a more standard bonus to moving on roads, and added the possible penalty to hit with giving everyone the chance to hit on a "6" because of the extra modifier in addition to giving +1 AP for height instead of ignoring cover bonuses. So no, it isn't just a reprint of the cities of death rules from.the core rule book.
These all force more tactical movement, which many feel isn't present in the game. That is a good thing and a lot of folks are ignoring it while complaining about the thing it fixes.
It has huge problem with the -1 to hit. Those are awful. They hurt game so much. It's bad enough when you have -1 to hit as army trait(if it's available just take it). Now with those -1 is even more common and -2 is pretty standard as well. Have fun vs -2 and -3 without effort alaitocs. Enjoy those -2 to hit dark eldars.
Modifiers stacking on a 1d6 curve is probably the biggest flaw with the new edition in terms of the basic combat engine.
All the more reason to switch to D8. Especially with the new wounding chart, it is too easy to wound everything with anything. I'm not complaining about Lasguns causing a single wound on a Baneblade or Knight, but it should be considerably lower odds than it is now. D8 would fix that.
Soft and hard cover are new, they added dangerous terrain, they gave a more standard bonus to moving on roads, and added the possible penalty to hit with giving everyone the chance to hit on a "6" because of the extra modifier in addition to giving +1 AP for height instead of ignoring cover bonuses. So no, it isn't just a reprint of the cities of death rules from.the core rule book.
These all force more tactical movement, which many feel isn't present in the game. That is a good thing and a lot of folks are ignoring it while complaining about the thing it fixes.
It has huge problem with the -1 to hit. Those are awful. They hurt game so much. It's bad enough when you have -1 to hit as army trait(if it's available just take it). Now with those -1 is even more common and -2 is pretty standard as well. Have fun vs -2 and -3 without effort alaitocs. Enjoy those -2 to hit dark eldars.
Modifiers stacking on a 1d6 curve is probably the biggest flaw with the new edition in terms of the basic combat engine.
All the more reason to switch to D8. Especially with the new wounding chart, it is too easy to wound everything with anything. I'm not complaining about Lasguns causing a single wound on a Baneblade or Knight, but it should be considerably lower odds than it is now. D8 would fix that.
There's a reason I keep describing Legion as someone's wishlist for 40k fixes.
Soft and hard cover are new, they added dangerous terrain, they gave a more standard bonus to moving on roads, and added the possible penalty to hit with giving everyone the chance to hit on a "6" because of the extra modifier in addition to giving +1 AP for height instead of ignoring cover bonuses. So no, it isn't just a reprint of the cities of death rules from.the core rule book.
These all force more tactical movement, which many feel isn't present in the game. That is a good thing and a lot of folks are ignoring it while complaining about the thing it fixes.
It has huge problem with the -1 to hit. Those are awful. They hurt game so much. It's bad enough when you have -1 to hit as army trait(if it's available just take it). Now with those -1 is even more common and -2 is pretty standard as well. Have fun vs -2 and -3 without effort alaitocs. Enjoy those -2 to hit dark eldars.
Modifiers stacking on a 1d6 curve is probably the biggest flaw with the new edition in terms of the basic combat engine.
All the more reason to switch to D8. Especially with the new wounding chart, it is too easy to wound everything with anything. I'm not complaining about Lasguns causing a single wound on a Baneblade or Knight, but it should be considerably lower odds than it is now. D8 would fix that.
Not going to happen, given the relative price and availability of d6 dice vs d8 dice.
Soft and hard cover are new, they added dangerous terrain, they gave a more standard bonus to moving on roads, and added the possible penalty to hit with giving everyone the chance to hit on a "6" because of the extra modifier in addition to giving +1 AP for height instead of ignoring cover bonuses. So no, it isn't just a reprint of the cities of death rules from.the core rule book.
These all force more tactical movement, which many feel isn't present in the game. That is a good thing and a lot of folks are ignoring it while complaining about the thing it fixes.
It has huge problem with the -1 to hit. Those are awful. They hurt game so much. It's bad enough when you have -1 to hit as army trait(if it's available just take it). Now with those -1 is even more common and -2 is pretty standard as well. Have fun vs -2 and -3 without effort alaitocs. Enjoy those -2 to hit dark eldars.
Modifiers stacking on a 1d6 curve is probably the biggest flaw with the new edition in terms of the basic combat engine.
All the more reason to switch to D8. Especially with the new wounding chart, it is too easy to wound everything with anything. I'm not complaining about Lasguns causing a single wound on a Baneblade or Knight, but it should be considerably lower odds than it is now. D8 would fix that.
Not going to happen, given the relative price and availability of d6 dice vs d8 dice.
Soft and hard cover are new, they added dangerous terrain, they gave a more standard bonus to moving on roads, and added the possible penalty to hit with giving everyone the chance to hit on a "6" because of the extra modifier in addition to giving +1 AP for height instead of ignoring cover bonuses. So no, it isn't just a reprint of the cities of death rules from.the core rule book.
These all force more tactical movement, which many feel isn't present in the game. That is a good thing and a lot of folks are ignoring it while complaining about the thing it fixes.
It has huge problem with the -1 to hit. Those are awful. They hurt game so much. It's bad enough when you have -1 to hit as army trait(if it's available just take it). Now with those -1 is even more common and -2 is pretty standard as well. Have fun vs -2 and -3 without effort alaitocs. Enjoy those -2 to hit dark eldars.
Modifiers stacking on a 1d6 curve is probably the biggest flaw with the new edition in terms of the basic combat engine.
All the more reason to switch to D8. Especially with the new wounding chart, it is too easy to wound everything with anything. I'm not complaining about Lasguns causing a single wound on a Baneblade or Knight, but it should be considerably lower odds than it is now. D8 would fix that.
Not going to happen, given the relative price and availability of d6 dice vs d8 dice.
Should step out of the GW gaming bubble. Almost all dice are the same price.
17 powerful Stratagems, as well as 6 each of the following: Warlord Traits, Relics of Ynnead, Tactical Objectives and psychic powers from the Revenant discipline
Well, the Assassin stuff clearly didn’t see much playtesting beyond „let‘s throw crazy OP gak 4x better than any other 85 pts. Character in there to shift copies“, so who knows what Ynnari will turn out to be.
17 powerful Stratagems, as well as 6 each of the following: Warlord Traits, Relics of Ynnead, Tactical Objectives and psychic powers from the Revenant discipline
Yeah, just read this, i already ask my local for a WD pre-order. Its going to be a large change, but for the better and i cant wait.
With 17 Stratagems, I kinda hope "Soulburst" is a thing of the past and you get to "move twice, shoot twice, fight twice, etc" through those Strats instead.
Really, that's all you'd need to make Ynnari and "thing". You take the 3 Characters in a Supreme Command detachment, or "buy" them with 1 CP like Assassins and if you include any in your Army, you get access to the Ynnari Strats, Relics, WL traits, etc. But you don't give up you CWE, DE or Harlie traits to get anything other than that. It would make it MUCH less complicated and if the Strats are good, it will still be worth mixing Aeldari, but in separate detachments without all the snowflake rules around them
Galef wrote: With 17 Stratagems, I kinda hope "Soulburst" is a thing of the past and you get to "move twice, shoot twice, fight twice, etc" through those Strats instead.
Really, that's all you'd need to make Ynnari and "thing". You take the 3 Characters in a Supreme Command detachment, or "buy" them with 1 CP like Assassins and if you include any in your Army, you get access to the Ynnari Strats, Relics, WL traits, etc.
But you don't give up you CWE, DE or Harlie traits to get anything other than that.
It would make it MUCH less complicated and if the Strats are good, it will still be worth mixing Aeldari, but in separate detachments without all the snowflake rules around them
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That would be busted... If Dark Reapers could stay Altaioc and double-shoot you've just buffed them even further. :-p
Personally i would completely redo Ynnari and make it like a PFP chart, but you army gets it for each detachment with a Ynnari character, the PFP chart goes up for each unit that dies, to a max of 6
Something like
1 Kill - Gains +1" to all movement, advancement, charges
3 kills - Gains +1 strengthin melee
5 kills - Ignore a -1 to hit modifier
7 Kills - etc..
etc..
Or You have Soulburst tokens, and each kill gives you a token, then you can use it, Movement is 2, shooting again is 3, melee again is 3, additional power is 2, charge is 1. Its like CP but you can use them on other stratagems.
Thats my dream, i know many dont like it, but i think its more fluffy and fun.
Galef wrote: With 17 Stratagems, I kinda hope "Soulburst" is a thing of the past and you get to "move twice, shoot twice, fight twice, etc" through those Strats instead.
Really, that's all you'd need to make Ynnari and "thing". You take the 3 Characters in a Supreme Command detachment, or "buy" them with 1 CP like Assassins and if you include any in your Army, you get access to the Ynnari Strats, Relics, WL traits, etc. But you don't give up you CWE, DE or Harlie traits to get anything other than that. It would make it MUCH less complicated and if the Strats are good, it will still be worth mixing Aeldari, but in separate detachments without all the snowflake rules around them
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That would be busted... If Dark Reapers could stay Altaioc and double-shoot you've just buffed them even further. :-p
Would you feel the same is the "Shoot twice" strat was 3CPs?
Galef wrote: Would you feel the same is the "Shoot twice" strat was 2-3CPs?
Would you feel the same if it was just "shoot twice" as long as they moved no more than half their movement?
Or if moving twice was just an "order"/ability an officer a Swarmlord Ynnari character could hand out. No CP. No roll to succeed. No way to deny. Not even Vect. Nothing
Or if moving twice was just an "order"/ability an officer a Swarmlord Ynnari character could hand out. No CP. No roll to succeed. No way to deny. Not even Vect. Nothing
As long as they can't shoot or assault after moving twice, sure!
As long as they're now large models without an invulnerable save, who can't move back into cover / out of line of sight after shooting, sure!
Someone forgot to tell the Tallarn (who don't even need to waste CP doing it; of which they usually have 4x as many as any Ynnari army ... + CP farming)
Amishprn86 wrote: Having all the rules on the characters like the Swarmlord is a really good way to balance Ynnari actually.
They are just given the Keyword and rules for traits like normal, but also has SFD as a once a game ability.
Not very fun or fluffy, but its more balance and in line with 8th.
No thanks. I don't want the rules for the faction to be tied to special characters showing up to every single game. It should be possible to take a generic character as Ynnari warlord.
Iracundus wrote: No thanks. I don't want the rules for the faction to be tied to special characters showing up to every single game. It should be possible to take a generic character as Ynnari warlord.
I can see where you are coming from with this, but also remember that he Gathering Storm story line (which introduced the Ynnari) pretty clearly shows that the followers of Ynnead only became so because Yvraine showed up.
So in that regard, Ynnari requiring 1 of the 3 Characters to be present is the one example in all of 40K in which it makes fluff-sense to require the character.
As long as they're now large models without an invulnerable save, who can't move back into cover / out of line of sight after shooting, sure!
Someone forgot to tell the Tallarn (who don't even need to waste CP doing it; of which they usually have 4x as many as any Ynnari army ... + CP farming)
If you are trying to convince people that Genestealers or Tallarn are better than Ynnary I believe you are gonna have a hard time.
I am trying to convince people that there is a wide variety of rules beyond just stratagems in the game that allow double-activations and many of them are superior to soul burst.
If soul burst was the part that was broken, Dark Eldar Ynnari would beat Craftworld Ynnari, as non-Ynnari Dark Eldar beat non-Ynnari Craftworld.
The problem isn't soul burst. It's mostly eldar psychic powers and buffs, most notably doom.
Remove doom from the game, and Ynnari is mid-tier at best, even with 2017-style soul burst.
Inversely, if Tyranids or Tallarn had Doom, they'd be far superior to Ynnari, not least because they have far superiour double-activation mechanics at far lower opportunity costs.
Well, yes. The problem is the giant combination of mechanics and buffs that makes things OP. Just like everything else that is too powerfull in 8th.
At least for 8th edition theres hasn't been a unit that was OP by itself, like 7th Wraith Knight. I suppose the most similar thing were 3ppm 40-man conscripts but they needed the fearless from Commisars and you can't win a game with just conscripts unlike Scatterbikes or WK's in 7th.
Also double turn activation is entirely dependant in what you are double activating. If you could active a 10-man grot unit three times in one round nobody would bat an eye. Double active a Castellan and...
Remove doom from the game, and Ynnari is mid-tier at best, even with 2017-style soul burst.
Yo let me get this straight.... So majority of people seem to agree ynnari ruleset is out of whack and is causing issues with balance(like all soup). And your idea is to nerf CWE to bring them down from what you percieve top tier to garbage tier just so yinnari can be mid tier at best? So the CWE players will really have to go ynnari now because they wont be able to compete otherwise? which will make more people ynnari? I dont even know what to say.
Regarding the article, I cringed when I read that.... you can check out the extensive bestiaries on Yvraine, the Visarch and the Yncarne Not sure how extensive bestiary you can have on a not ver extensive faction compromising of 3 special charcters... Its clear GW designers just doesnt care lol.
Seems to me they are trying AOSYify 40k and shoehorn Aeldari into a ynnari superfaction and force it onto people.. Lame.
Ynarri are the reason I've actually had any interest in eldar(all kinds) at all. Didnt really like them in RT/2nd and never really thought about them since. I Really like the whole death fuels them aspect and hope the WD rules actually tone down/expand on what can be done when with soulburst.
I've been holding off on adding any more models to my force until they get some actually unique feeling rules. If they get some wraithguard/knight bonuses (what I want to build/add next) I'll be all over that.
Ynnari is 3 model kit as a faction.. Everything else is craftworld or DE or harlequins.. You are basicaly playing those armies because thats where the models come from. I'd be happy if ynnari got some unique troops models for their own as an army. Would solve some problems and the rest of the codexes could be left alone regaridng points etc.
Why do you feel you need ynnari to make a wraith construct army? You could just make a list with a bunch of wraith constructs..
FYI - There are special rules for yanden craftworldm, its a special detahcment fromt he first vigilius book I believe. Its not ground breaking but sort of useful.
Also if ynnari consume all the dead there will be constructs...
Argive wrote: Ynnari is 3 model kit as a faction.. Everything else is craftworld or DE or harlequins.. You are basicaly playing those armies because thats where the models come from. I'd be happy if ynnari got some unique troops models for their own as an army. Would solve some problems and the rest of the codexes could be left alone regaridng points etc.
Why do you feel you need ynnari to make a wraith construct army? You could just make a list with a bunch of wraith constructs..
FYI - There are special rules for yanden craftworldm, its a special detahcment fromt he first vigilius book I believe. Its not ground breaking but sort of useful.
Also if ynnari consume all the dead there will be constructs...
Its suppose to be other armies tho, Yvarine a literal Cult within the Aeldari race, Lelith, Eldrad, and others have joined her, they didnt change who they are, or what they do, just their religious beliefs.
Then why do they get new rules etc. if they dont change who they are or how they do things? Just give them a couple units like harlequins and call them a faction.
Anyway. I feel its just a very slow proces to blend the eldar factions into one AOS style "good" "chaso" "Death" thing. They keep nerfing individual units form their respective codexes to countrer the fact they are too powerful as ynnari. 3 special characters should nto have an impact on the game and 3 codexes.. its silly... Anywy it is what it is. I wont loose ny mroe energy tryign to discuss. Its another trend down the path of sameness...
Argive wrote: Then why do they get new rules etc. if they dont change who they are or how they do things? Just give them a couple units like harlequins and call them a faction.
Anyway. I feel its just a very slow proces to blend the eldar factions into one AOS style "good" "chaso" "Death" thing. They keep nerfing individual units form their respective codexes to countrer the fact they are too powerful as ynnari. 3 special characters should nto have an impact on the game and 3 codexes.. its silly... Anywy it is what it is. I wont loose ny mroe energy tryign to discuss. Its another trend down the path of sameness...
They dont get new rules they get more powerful b.c other things around them dies, b.c Yvarine is able to harvest souls for her army, everyone already has soul stones, she made a better use for them and Yncarne.
I am actually looking forward to this. I have a TON of Dark Eldar models, but I would almost rather turn them into Ynnari so I can get some of the cool looking Craftworlds stuff and maybe even some Harlies. I hope they aren't broken though.
If you are trying to convince people that Genestealers or Tallarn are better than Ynnary I believe you are gonna have a hard time.
I am trying to convince people that there is a wide variety of rules beyond just stratagems in the game that allow double-activations and many of them are superior to soul burst.
If soul burst was the part that was broken, Dark Eldar Ynnari would beat Craftworld Ynnari, as non-Ynnari Dark Eldar beat non-Ynnari Craftworld.
The problem isn't soul burst. It's mostly eldar psychic powers and buffs, most notably doom.
Remove doom from the game, and Ynnari is mid-tier at best, even with 2017-style soul burst.
Inversely, if Tyranids or Tallarn had Doom, they'd be far superior to Ynnari, not least because they have far superiour double-activation mechanics at far lower opportunity costs.
This is so accurate. Doom is just such a huge force multiplier in this meta, that it becomes so difficult to balance anything. Take it away and suddenly you can start buffing underused aeldari units with fewer risk.
Galef wrote: With 17 Stratagems, I kinda hope "Soulburst" is a thing of the past and you get to "move twice, shoot twice, fight twice, etc" through those Strats instead.
Really, that's all you'd need to make Ynnari and "thing". You take the 3 Characters in a Supreme Command detachment, or "buy" them with 1 CP like Assassins and if you include any in your Army, you get access to the Ynnari Strats, Relics, WL traits, etc.
But you don't give up you CWE, DE or Harlie traits to get anything other than that.
It would make it MUCH less complicated and if the Strats are good, it will still be worth mixing Aeldari, but in separate detachments without all the snowflake rules around them
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Uuuh that sounds like it would be huge boost with nbo downside. Gee no own detachment, ability to pick which you want as needed and not even giving up traits. Are ynnari really in need of BOOST? Pretty sure they are already dominating the scene...
Eldarain wrote: Losing Soulburst is part of his proposal so pretty big downside losing that broken nonsense.
I'm pretty sure putting them in as stratagems at no adverse cost is a boost. They stop being conditional and can be used every phase.
At a cost of 2-3 CP each a fairly standard 14 CP list would get to bonus action seven times, at most. Vs now where they can Soul Burst 2-3 times a turn.
2 CP for double movement is strong but like pointed out earlier, it is something other armies can trigger unconditionally through character inclusion as well. (Well other than a range condition) So 2 CP seems pretty fair. 3 CP for fight twice is standard, the same for shoot twice seems appropriate. That gives enough for two rounds of double shooting and punching. Strong, yes, but not having access all game strong.
That's exactly part of my suggestion/speculation. The "condition" is still there to trigger the Strat, but now you have to spend a CP or 2 to use the Soulburst. This would also mean only getting to use 1 kind of "act twice" ability per phase in Matched Play without the added FAQ telling you so. It's cleaner and requires actual resources.
And even though it means keeping your Faction Traits, that's "cleaner" too. It is frustrating to have a situation in which you could have Alaitoc units in one detachment getting the -1 to hit trait, yet another detachment with "Alaitoc" units that trade the trait for being Ynnari. It's dumb and needs to die.
And it 100% makes sense to require at least 1 of the Ynnari Characters to gain the Strats/Relic/WL traits. Otherwise EVERY Aeldari army would just be Ynnari all the time as there would be no "negative" for doing so, even if you choose not to spend CPs to Soulburst. Fluff-wise, you need an Ynnari WL to lead your Ynnari and unless their rules have detachments like the Vigilus ones that add the Keyword at the cost of CPs (actually not a bad idea) there's not really a better way to "make" Ynnari Characters without a full codex (which we aren't getting)
I'm wondering about the FAQ timing.
I initially thought Ynnari would be nerfed to the ground in the FAQ, and then made playable again with the WD supplement. But now, it looks like the FAQ should drop around the same time as WD.
So it might be possible that the FAQ will contain the same Ynnari rules as in WD, just without the traits/relics/powers.
Rule sequencing also matters as far as FAQs are concerned. Once WD is out, what happens if they update the index Xenos FAQ? Does is affect the Ynnari rules in WD? The only option I see is to treat the WD article as the codex, and once it's out, never update the Index Xenos FAQ anymore. Which means that the FAQ has to get out before the WD article does, otherwise any update to the Index Xenos FAQ would become the newest publication regarding Ynnari rules.
Also, are there many special characters out there that don't have a set warlord trait? Because 6 traits for 3 special characters is puzzling.
I'm wondering if they're waiting until after the new Slaanesh stuff is fully revealed on Saturday, so the new unit rules can be included in Chaos codex FAQs.
fresus wrote: I'm wondering about the FAQ timing. I initially thought Ynnari would be nerfed to the ground in the FAQ, and then made playable again with the WD supplement. But now, it looks like the FAQ should drop around the same time as WD. So it might be possible that the FAQ will contain the same Ynnari rules as in WD, just without the traits/relics/powers.
From the last FAQ we now that pretty much anything that has been released this year will probably not be touched.
Rule sequencing also matters as far as FAQs are concerned. Once WD is out, what happens if they update the index Xenos FAQ? Does is affect the Ynnari rules in WD? The only option I see is to treat the WD article as the codex, and once it's out, never update the Index Xenos FAQ anymore. Which means that the FAQ has to get out before the WD article does, otherwise any update to the Index Xenos FAQ would become the newest publication regarding Ynnari rules.
More likely, there will not be any changes to Index: Xenos in this FAQ. With the WD's release that book has become obsolete in GW's eyes.
How about just not doing that double activation thing, because it breaks the game.
Not that me saying it would change anything.
It would be hilarious if Ynnari keep their core mechanic and get stratagems and relics on top. You would have to buy a snow plower to get through mountains of salt.
fresus wrote: I'm wondering about the FAQ timing.
I initially thought Ynnari would be nerfed to the ground in the FAQ, and then made playable again with the WD supplement. But now, it looks like the FAQ should drop around the same time as WD.
So it might be possible that the FAQ will contain the same Ynnari rules as in WD, just without the traits/relics/powers.
Why you think FAQ would contain ynnari rules to begin with? And in any case FAQ is made well after WD article was made so even if FAQ had something to ynnari that got overwritten in WD article they could fix those in the FAQ before releasing FAQ. Lead time on online FAQ's is LOT shorter than for physical items like WD.
And even though it means keeping your Faction Traits, that's "cleaner" too. It is frustrating to have a situation in which you could have Alaitoc units in one detachment getting the -1 to hit trait, yet another detachment with "Alaitoc" units that trade the trait for being Ynnari.
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Why ynnari should be such a special snowflake as to get multiple chapter/regiment/whatever bonuses? I want combination of evil sun and death skull traits as well then!
fresus wrote: I'm wondering about the FAQ timing.
I initially thought Ynnari would be nerfed to the ground in the FAQ, and then made playable again with the WD supplement. But now, it looks like the FAQ should drop around the same time as WD.
So it might be possible that the FAQ will contain the same Ynnari rules as in WD, just without the traits/relics/powers.
Rule sequencing also matters as far as FAQs are concerned. Once WD is out, what happens if they update the index Xenos FAQ? Does is affect the Ynnari rules in WD? The only option I see is to treat the WD article as the codex, and once it's out, never update the Index Xenos FAQ anymore. Which means that the FAQ has to get out before the WD article does, otherwise any update to the Index Xenos FAQ would become the newest publication regarding Ynnari rules.
Also, are there many special characters out there that don't have a set warlord trait? Because 6 traits for 3 special characters is puzzling.
The only named characters I know of that don't have a set warlord trait tend not to be able to have one anyway, like the Phoenix Lords.
I think it's a good indication that the "must hav eone of these characters as your warlord" requirement is being dropped.
And even though it means keeping your Faction Traits, that's "cleaner" too. It is frustrating to have a situation in which you could have Alaitoc units in one detachment getting the -1 to hit trait, yet another detachment with "Alaitoc" units that trade the trait for being Ynnari.
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Why ynnari should be such a special snowflake as to get multiple chapter/regiment/whatever bonuses? I want combination of evil sun and death skull traits as well then!
I am not suggesting that Ynnari be able to "combine" traits. I am suggesting the "Strength from Death"/Soulburst not be a trait AT ALL.
Let CWE/DE/Harlies keep their existing traits, make "Strength from Death" an aura ability that ONLY the 3 Ynnari Characters give out to AELDARI models and make Soulburst into Stratagems.
Following the same pattern as Assassins, you now have to pay CPs to be able to use Ynnari stuff AND still have to pay for the Characters. So nothing is "free" like it is now
And even though it means keeping your Faction Traits, that's "cleaner" too. It is frustrating to have a situation in which you could have Alaitoc units in one detachment getting the -1 to hit trait, yet another detachment with "Alaitoc" units that trade the trait for being Ynnari.
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Why ynnari should be such a special snowflake as to get multiple chapter/regiment/whatever bonuses? I want combination of evil sun and death skull traits as well then!
I am not suggesting that Ynnari be able to "combine" traits. I am suggesting the "Strength from Death"/Soulburst not be a trait AT ALL.
Let CWE/DE/Harlies keep their existing traits, make "Strength from Death" an aura ability that ONLY the 3 Ynnari Characters give out to AELDARI models and make Soulburst into Stratagems.
Following the same pattern as Assassins, you now have to pay CPs to be able to use Ynnari stuff AND still have to pay for the Characters. So nothing is "free" like it is now
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Probably the best suggestion. I think people are confused in thinking that Ynarri are a real faction, they aren't. Ynarri are craftworld eldar, harlequins and drukhari.
Agreed, Ynnari should not be their own faction until they get a full codex with unique units other than just 3 Characters (which, to be clear, I hope NEVER happens). Until then, the followers of Ynnead are made up from fragments of the other 3 Aeldari factions lead by specific Characters.
It's a growing movement, sure, but a very small one in the grand scheme of things. The individual members of the Ynnari still have presumably centuries of being part of their respective Craftworld, Kabal, Masque, etc. So why would a sudden change of....religion?...alter how they go to and act in war?
Just add your character(s) of choice, get Strats. Eazy-peazy.
So, the New Zealand page for the White Dwarf is up. You can read the general army rules in a picture.
No named characters in Ynnari other than the 3 Ynnari specifics. And no Solitaire
Basically, no more using non Ynnari stratagems and psychic powers on Ynnari units. Also, they replace the <Faction> with Reborn Eldar-Type.
Beasts, Scourges, and Incubi can be included in Ynnari armies without breaking solid detachment rules but don't get Strength From Death, either.
Including the characters in a detachment lets you decide if it is a standard Craftworld, Drukhari, or Harlequins without giving up specific faction bonuses (but no such bonus for the Ynnari character.) Alternatively, you can decide that it is an Ynnari Detachment and all units gain Ynnari keyword (and faction changes mentioned above).
Strength From Death: (effects all Ynnari units in a Battle Forged non Superheavy Auxiliary detachment)
Once any unit dies all Ynnari units get to benefit from "Soulburst actions" which seems to be an Always Strike First (alternate with chargers, etc) for the rest of the turn. If the Ynnari unit had an Always Strike First type rule or charged that turn they can add 1 to their to hit rolls with melee weapons that turn.
No word if there are other things involved with "Soulburst actions" or if that was just flavor text now.
Hooray! I personally adore the idea of now only castelans being legitimate with ynnari do not pass go do not collect 200 dollars-ing from the best ability type in the game (double actions) to the literal worst ability in the game (fight first on the 2nd round of combat which usually doesn't happen and also wtf eldar aren't a melee army).
God I hate that ability. I loathe it on slaanesh units and I loath it all the more here.
At least that Wraithknight gets some benefit from Strength from Death now. It isn't too bad of a deal for a Sword Wraithknight. That big blade might actually hit something and tap dancing on 2's is pretty good. But whether its worth giving up Craftworld traits is another story.
I mean, how are you going to get that wraithknight? Gonna take 3? O.o Or a supreme command detachment consisting of what...a farseer who can't use their powers on their own detachment and an archon who doesn't give the rest of his detachment rerolls?
And are you imagining a world in which the wraithknight won't prefer -1 to be hit or double wounds for degration use of the psystone over +1 to hit? o.o
Wraithknights have gotta be in Supreme Command, I think, if you need to include an Ynnari character in the detachment. (So far at least)
However, a Farseer has a number of useful powers that get cast at enemy units. Sure, losing Guide hurts but Doom is far and away the most important Farseer power and it still functions nicely.
But yes, the drawback of losing Craftworld faction bonuses is rough, as mentioned.
GW probably put that placeholder rule up for now until they can make a proper Ynnari codex with new (all melee? lol) units. Which I reckon won't be anytime soon.
Too early to say how the army will play. It will probably be weaker but that doesn't make it completely useless in a non competitive setting.
I never get this argument.
Everything is not completely useless in a non-competitive setting.
Rules should be balanced so they are useful in any match played game.
This is true, but we know it's a fools errand. How much of each codex is used in a competitive setting? Probably a pretty small percentage (unless you play something like Harlies where you don't have much of a choice), but many of those unused units get great mileage in Matched Play non high-competitive games. That does exist you know, games where players opt for matched play but end up taking units they probably wouldn't take to an LVO. It doesn't mean they are trying to throw the game.
This is true, but we know it's a fools errand. How much of each codex is used in a competitive setting? Probably a pretty small percentage (unless you play something like Harlies where you don't have much of a choice), but many of those unused units get great mileage in Matched Play non high-competitive games. That does exist you know, games where players opt for matched play but end up taking units they probably wouldn't take to an LVO. It doesn't mean they are trying to throw the game.
I'm still on the bandwagon of holding out for the rest of the rules before passing judgement.
You've added in High Competitive games as opposed to just competitive games. If the Strategems, Relics, ect don't help out we Ynnari will not see the light of any game vaguely competitive as Vanilla Craftworld, drukhari, harlequinsare just far superior.
Not sure how I feel about this yet. I love the Ynnari fluff but in order to make an actual decision if I will run my space elves as Ynnari, I'd have to see the rest of the rules. Losing some of the attributes, strategems, and spells might not be worth it if the other Ynnari abilities are junk too.
The Incubi thing is just stupid too, since it's one of the few 'actual' Ynnari units, at least the ones that are bodyguards for the Visarch. Way to make sure people don't take one of the few known units of the faction.
Dulahan wrote: The Incubi thing is just stupid too, since it's one of the few 'actual' Ynnari units, at least the ones that are bodyguards for the Visarch. Way to make sure people don't take one of the few known units of the faction.
My bet is the Visarch gets Drazhar's aura, +1 to hit for nearby Incubi units.
So, the Ynarri characters can be added to existing Craftworld/Harlequin/Drukhari armies without penalty now? It'd be nice to add some new elements to my Harlies without having to commit to Ynarri.
rollawaythestone wrote: So, the Ynarri characters can be added to existing Craftworld/Harlequin/Drukhari armies without penalty now? It'd be nice to add some new elements to my Harlies without having to commit to Ynarri.
That does look like the one good thing to come out of this, if the Yncarne has got a points drop I may use him more regularly and won't need an Auxiliary HQ detachment to do it.
Imateria wrote: Wyches are now strictly worse as Ynnari, they give up a whole ream of abilities to gain only 1 of them back, and not at all the best of them.
Missed one of the major changes then, Wyches now retain power from pain, harlies retain cressendo, craftword retain battle focus. Bit of overlap with SfD as the game rounds progresses but still hitting on 2s even against PBs ain't shabby. Will hinge on if Ynnari strats, powers and relics are viable compared to cult buffs they'd lose.
I'm actually interested in seeing if this allows true mixed "Ynnari" groups now. So an Ynnari "Autarch" and a unit of Guardians with a unit of Wyches and another of Dark Eldar Warriors all in one Detachment again?
Dulahan wrote: I'm actually interested in seeing if this allows true mixed "Ynnari" groups now. So an Ynnari "Autarch" and a unit of Guardians with a unit of Wyches and another of Dark Eldar Warriors all in one Detachment again?
Doesn't look it. The Ynnari keyword that they gain is explicitly not a faction keyword and the "Battle Brothers" matched play rule from Big FAQ2 says you can't use Aeldari as the unifying keyword within a detachment.
You'd need to have one detachment of Reborn Asuryani and another detachment for Reborn Drukhari.
Imateria wrote: Wyches are now strictly worse as Ynnari, they give up a whole ream of abilities to gain only 1 of them back, and not at all the best of them.
Missed one of the major changes then, Wyches now retain power from pain, harlies retain cressendo, craftword retain battle focus. Bit of overlap with SfD as the game rounds progresses but still hitting on 2s even against PBs ain't shabby. Will hinge on if Ynnari strats, powers and relics are viable compared to cult buffs they'd lose.
I had not noticed that, I gave up squinting at the left hand page.
rollawaythestone wrote: So, the Ynarri characters can be added to existing Craftworld/Harlequin/Drukhari armies without penalty now? It'd be nice to add some new elements to my Harlies without having to commit to Ynarri.
You cant have a solitaire if you do that, what Harlequin player would add Yvarine in place of a Solitaire? Just take a CWE or DE detachment and add it there, it makes building pure pure worst b.c you need a different detachment for the solitaire.
rollawaythestone wrote: So, the Ynarri characters can be added to existing Craftworld/Harlequin/Drukhari armies without penalty now? It'd be nice to add some new elements to my Harlies without having to commit to Ynarri.
You cant have a solitaire if you do that, what Harlequin player would add Yvarine in place of a Solitaire? Just take a CWE or DE detachment and add it there, it makes building pure pure worst b.c you need a different detachment for the solitaire.
If you really want a Solitaire and the Yncarne in the same list then it shouldn't be that difficult to fit them both in. How often do you run only one detachment, even as a mono-Codex list?
rollawaythestone wrote: So, the Ynarri characters can be added to existing Craftworld/Harlequin/Drukhari armies without penalty now? It'd be nice to add some new elements to my Harlies without having to commit to Ynarri.
You cant have a solitaire if you do that, what Harlequin player would add Yvarine in place of a Solitaire? Just take a CWE or DE detachment and add it there, it makes building pure pure worst b.c you need a different detachment for the solitaire.
If you really want a Solitaire and the Yncarne in the same list then it shouldn't be that difficult to fit them both in. How often do you run only one detachment, even as a mono-Codex list?
Its more of the idea of how GW is doing it, its convoluted for "Fear" it might be to strong and not for a fluff stand point (as a fluff stand point he would follow Ynnari/Yvarine around b.c thats what they do, they act kinda like spies or check if she knows anything about the black library). its more of a slap in the face.
Ynnariquins are looking interesting with some nice potential combos pending on how the rest of the Ynnari index shakes out with strats, psychic powers, relics, warlord traits, etc.
The idea of Rising Crescendo with some of the benefits of SFD could be very powerful. Additionally, could be a much more reliable way of teleporting the Yncarne (assuming his teleporting shenanigans work the same) into your opponent's lines turn 2 with the pseudo-interrupt ability.
Dulahan wrote: I'm actually interested in seeing if this allows true mixed "Ynnari" groups now. So an Ynnari "Autarch" and a unit of Guardians with a unit of Wyches and another of Dark Eldar Warriors all in one Detachment again?
Doesn't look it. The Ynnari keyword that they gain is explicitly not a faction keyword and the "Battle Brothers" matched play rule from Big FAQ2 says you can't use Aeldari as the unifying keyword within a detachment.
You'd need to have one detachment of Reborn Asuryani and another detachment for Reborn Drukhari.
I was more hoping for some 'exceptions' that might be spelled out in the Index that we don't know about yet.
The way I read it (by my squinting might be wrong), you can't stack SfD and Rising Crescendo.
When you add an Ynnari character, you choose to either keep your detachment as Harlie/CWE/DE, and retain all related bonuses, or you choose to change it for a reborn detachment, in which case your units gain the Ynnari detachment bonuses (SfD, strats, relics etc.), instead of the normal ones (not in addition to).
fresus wrote: The way I read it (by my squinting might be wrong), you can't stack SfD and Rising Crescendo.
When you add an Ynnari character, you choose to either keep your detachment as Harlie/CWE/DE, and retain all related bonuses, or you choose to change it for a reborn detachment, in which case your units gain the Ynnari detachment bonuses (SfD, strats, relics etc.), instead of the normal ones (not in addition to).
Correct, with a list of units that can or cant be with the Ynnari characters / Ynnari detachments.
Oddly... Ynnari names characters (the 4-5 from the fluff like Eldrad, Lelith, etc..) that are now officially following Ynnari cant join Ynnari.
A lot of the Stratagems bounce off Soulburst units. And, should you kill the enemy Warlord, for just 1CP, you get permanent Soulburst on all relevant units.
There’s also one that allows up to three units of Incubi to gain Strength from Death. It’s 2CP though. I don’t know enough to say if that’s good, situational, or bobbins!
A lot of the Stratagems bounce off Soulburst units. And, should you kill the enemy Warlord, for just 1CP, you get permanent Soulburst on all relevant units.
There’s also one that allows up to three units of Incubi to gain Strength from Death. It’s 2CP though. I don’t know enough to say if that’s good, situational, or bobbins!
But..... Incubi dont need +1 to hit... they already can get +1 to hit multiple ways... they need more attacks and to be cheaper
1. Gaze of Nagash.
WC 6. Select one enemy unit within 18” and visible to caster. Roll a D6. 1 = 1 MW. 2-5 = D3 MW. 6 = D6MW
2. Storm of Whispers
WC6. If manifested, roll 3D6 for each enemy unit within 6” of the caster. For each 6, unit takes 1 MW.
3. Word up of the Phoenix.
WC5. In manifested, pick 1 Ynnari Infantry or Ynnari Biker Unit within 18”. One model regains D3 Lost Wounds. If no models have lost wounds, but has suffered one or more casualties, return 1 model the unit, within coherency, with 1 wound.
4. Unbind Souls
WC6. If manifested, select enemy within 18” of the caster. Until your next Psychic phase, you can re-roll Wounds for melee Weapon attacks made by Ynnari models in your army that target that unit.
5. Shield of Ynnead.
WC7. If manifested, all friendly Ynnari units within 6” of caster gain a 5+ INV until your next psychic phase
6. Ancestors Grace
WC5. Select friendly Ynnari unit within 18”. Until your next psychic phase, re-roll hit rolls of 1 for attacks made by that unit.
Only attack first, unless you can already attack first, or have charged. Then you get +1 to hit as well.
Automatically Appended Next Post: One can also make a pretty resilient Warlord.
Trait 1 - Lord of Rebirth.
Regain a wound at the start of each battle round. And each time you would lose a wound, on a 5+ it’s not lost.
Married with
The Lost Shroud (artefact). All damage is halved, rounding up. And a further 5+ to ignore wounds (not sure you can use both 5+ in that scenario though?)
Other artefacts?
Hungering Blade.
Replaces power sword, starglaive or huskblade. Melee, Melee, S+3, AP-3, D2. Each 6 to hit does an additional MW.
Song of Ynnead
Replaces Shuriken Pistol. 18” range, Pistol 3, S5 AP-1 D1. Each 6 to wound is AP-3, and each time an attack from this weapon kills an enemy model, the target unit is -1 Ld until the end of the turn
Mirrorgaze
-1 to hit for attacks that target the bearer
Soulsnare
Once per game. Thrown in place of shooting. Select an enemy unit within 6”, roll 1D6. 1 = nowt. 2-5 D3 Mortal Wounds, thrower regains that many. 6 = D6MW, and bearer regains all their lost wounds
Corag Hai’s Locket (possibly my fave)
Each time an enemy unit is destroyed by an attack made by the bearer (any type of attack, including Psychic). add 1 to the bearer’s Move and Attacks for remainder of the battle.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Other WL traits,
Warden of Souls
Whilst Soulbursting, +1 to attacks and strength characteristic
Walker of Many Paths
Re-roll on hit or wound each turn. If army is Battleforged, roll a D6 for each CP spent. 5+ that CP is immediately refunded
Fear of the Grave
Enemy units within 6” are at -1 Ld. -2 during any turn in which the Warlord destroyed a unit.
Favoured of Ynnead
Each time the Warlord piles in or consolidates, they can move up to 6” instead of 3”
Master of Death
Each unmodified hit roll of a 6 made for an attack by this Warlord scores 2 hits instead of 1
Automatically Appended Next Post: Right. Off for a Sunday Lunch (hopefully. I’ve not booked or owt!).
Will answer further questions once I’m back later. Please note I’m not currently up to speed on the playing aspect of the game, so info will be just that. No opinion, no comment on how Rule A interacts with Rule X. Best I can do there is give the exact wording, rather than potted ones I offered above.
Any mandatory Warlord Traits for the special characters?
Lord of Rebirth seems to mimic the Nurgle Death Guard one that also regenerates. Although you're right that a high Toughness Nurgle character gets more value out of it, but it does mean an unusually tough unit for Eldar. Target with Word of the Phoenix to replenish any wounds that are lost, for even more rapid healing.
Walker of Many Paths might be useful to keep refunding CP to fuel stratagems that rely on Soulburst.
......well, I thought ynnari might be interesting until I realized you lose all detachment benefits too. Lol. So you gain a rule that is definitely worse than rising crescendo and PFP, slightly better than Battlefocus and lose your detachment benefit to gain some truly awful Stratagems.
Inevitable fate and ynneads net are basically the only useful ynnari only Stratagems. Some of them are hilariously conditional too: only if you have ynnari harlequins drukhari and craft world units together? So one of each detachment and all three ynnari character tax? Seriously?
At first pass, it also appears that there could be very powerful combos for the Yncarne ... and then you look deeper into what everything is locked into and it’s underwhelming.
Geoff Robinson’s looks right .... looking like we have been nerfed to the ground.
Just passing on one group’s opinion, but my local club seem to think it’s a Nerf a long time coming?
I neither endorse nor reject that opinion, because it’s not mine. I don’t know enough about the tabletop side of things right now to have a valid opinion of my own on the matter.
Yeah no, they are completely destroyed. Revenant is now flat worse than the other psychic disciplines and thier stratagems are as well.
Based entirely around melee while losing many of the best elf melee units (talos, grots, solitaire). No double fight or double shoot even though many other armies have those strats. No army synergy. Yvranne got far worse with the loss of words of the Phoenix, visarch remains pointless and ynncarne remains overcosted by 100+ points.
the_scotsman wrote: So you gain a rule that is definitely worse than rising crescendo and PFP, slightly better than Battlefocus and lose your detachment benefit to gain some truly awful Stratagems
Maybe the verbiage is not as intuitive to me. It makes me believe that a soul burst action is something in addition to what’s described under SFD but you’re probably right.
I suspect I’m missing something here, but surely they can just CP farm the same, just making the erstwhile allies Reborn?
That's what I'm getting at - if the primary mechanic of CP farming also gets nerfed, then this new CP-heavy version of Ynnari is even worse than at first glance because not only were the powers and abilities nerfed, but now you must lean on your strategems to take full advantage of your army. That's why I'm curious to see what happens with the BIG FAQ - it will complete the picture of what Ynnari can do now.
the_scotsman wrote: So you gain a rule that is definitely worse than rising crescendo and PFP, slightly better than Battlefocus and lose your detachment benefit to gain some truly awful Stratagems
You don't seem to lose BF, PFP or Crescendo.
Agreed. You lose Detachment Abilities and Craftworld Attributes and cannot use strategems, psychic powers or relics on Ynnari units, even if they have the appropriate keyword.
Well i believe it's a nice touch up as it makes Ynnari the want to be close up and personal.
Are they killed by this changes?
Only for competitive probably as they double action was massively abused and it's the only reason for them to be hated.
Personally i like them not going to make a huge Ynnari army but i can see a Supreme command Detachment with Wraithblades/Wraithguard and a Wraithknight being able to take some advantage from it whitout being brokenly OP
Can someone clarify, but is it absolutely necessary to use the special characters to get a Ynnari detachment?
Instead of having one or more of the leaders of your apocalyptic death cult show up in person in each battle, is it possible to play a Ynnari army with generic Ynnari warlord?
Iracundus wrote: Can someone clarify, but is it absolutely necessary to use the special characters to get a Ynnari detachment?
Instead of having one or more of the leaders of your apocalyptic death cult show up in person in each battle, is it possible to play a Ynnari army with generic Ynnari warlord?
You need one special character per Ynnari detachment, but they don't have to be your warlord anymore.
Maybe the verbiage is not as intuitive to me. It makes me believe that a soul burst action is something in addition to what’s described under SFD but you’re probably right.
Very underwhelmed and disappointed so far.
It's very badly written, seemingly implying that Soulbursting is described elsewhere when it isn't. Add that to it being a rubbish special rule in the first place.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Just passing on one group’s opinion, but my local club seem to think it’s a Nerf a long time coming?
I neither endorse nor reject that opinion, because it’s not mine. I don’t know enough about the tabletop side of things right now to have a valid opinion of my own on the matter.
I think most Ynnari players would agree the old Strength from Death mechanics needed to change, they could get very obnoxious in the hands of a skilled player, and they tended to universally favoure large squads of very powerful models like Dark Reapers and Shinning Spears, but this change is both increadibly dull as a mechanic (only rarely takes effect and doesn't really let you do anything different to normal) and increadibly bad (my shooty units +1 to hit in combat where they don't want to be, and most of my combat units worth a damn already have that).
the_scotsman wrote: So you gain a rule that is definitely worse than rising crescendo and PFP, slightly better than Battlefocus and lose your detachment benefit to gain some truly awful Stratagems
You don't seem to lose BF, PFP or Crescendo.
You lose DRUKHARI, ASURYANI, and HARLEQUINS. Don't those abilities require those keywords?
the_scotsman wrote: You lose DRUKHARI, ASURYANI, and HARLEQUINS. Don't those abilities require those keywords?
It specifically states things like: "you cannot use craftworld psychic power on asuryani with ynnari keyword". So I don't see where you get that from. Certainly requires some FAQ for all this tho.
One thing I noticed: you can take say Farseer on bike, generate Revenant spells for them, give Ynnari in "6 a 5++ save. You also can make one your Warlord, give things like restore CP, 1/2 damage relic, and so on.
And 5++ is for all Ynnari units, not just Infantry or Biker. (my guess that's something waiting to be FAQed)
You can take Warlock with Gaze of Ynnead as cheap HQ.
Imateria wrote: Also, I notice that Fire and Fade is now 2CP, where it's 1CP in all 3 of the Aeldari codexes.
Logic is probably because Craftworlds are shooting army, they get it cheaper.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I’m seeing this as a stop-gap whilst they decide on how to make Ynnari a complete faction in itself.
After all, there’s only so long a mixing of cultures can go on before the differences becomes indivisible. Which is a good thing, if you ask me.
For me, I’d like to see them really play up The Eldar Of Old angle, but with personal restraint being important.
The issue is how they make them sufficiently different while not overly infringing on each existing Eldar faction's theme/specialty.
The Eldar of Old were supposedly both physically adept and psychically powerful. The Dark Eldar kept the physical training up but let their psychic ability atrophy. The Craftworlders kept their psychic ability and have heavier armor in the form of their tanks and wraith constructs. The Harlequins have a bit of both but lack heavy vehicles.
This is not even thinking about what (if anything) Exodites will ever get.
the_scotsman wrote: So you gain a rule that is definitely worse than rising crescendo and PFP, slightly better than Battlefocus and lose your detachment benefit to gain some truly awful Stratagems
You don't seem to lose BF, PFP or Crescendo.
You lose DRUKHARI, ASURYANI, and HARLEQUINS. Don't those abilities require those keywords?
Yep, im actually thinking this isnt such a bad nerf, with PFP, Rising Crescendo, etc.. you could make Quins, Wcyhes, Banshees, Wraiths something scary.
BUT, Court of the Archon are now not allowed in Ynnari
If wych cults retain PFP and harlequins retain crescendo then I can certainly see this being a usable alternative to a Cult/Masque trait. Even a decent masque trait. Also a very nice alternative to Saim-Hann craft world since you retain the only thing from it you want (s dance and charge on shining spears)
What the heck is a Starglaive (referenced in one of the relics)? Is that an autarch weapon?
the_scotsman wrote: So you gain a rule that is definitely worse than rising crescendo and PFP, slightly better than Battlefocus and lose your detachment benefit to gain some truly awful Stratagems
You don't seem to lose BF, PFP or Crescendo.
You lose DRUKHARI, ASURYANI, and HARLEQUINS. Don't those abilities require those keywords?
Nope, they're written "If a unit has this ability...". You do loose the aura's though. Archon's, Troop Masters, Shadowseers, Succubi, Autarchs, Beastmasters and I think Spiritseers can no longer buff their relevant units in Ynnari due to the loss of relevant keywords. I believe this makes the Visarch the only source of re-rolls to hit in an Ynnari army now since Guide can't be used on them either.
the_scotsman wrote: So you gain a rule that is definitely worse than rising crescendo and PFP, slightly better than Battlefocus and lose your detachment benefit to gain some truly awful Stratagems
You don't seem to lose BF, PFP or Crescendo.
You lose DRUKHARI, ASURYANI, and HARLEQUINS. Don't those abilities require those keywords?
Yep, im actually thinking this isnt such a bad nerf, with PFP, Rising Crescendo, etc.. you could make Quins, Wcyhes, Banshees, Wraiths something scary.
BUT, Court of the Archon are now not allowed in Ynnari
The thing I think might salvage it is the two reroll wound abilities. SO MANY units would be better with easy access to wound reroll in melee.
In short you lose everything whats in the list, all powers (because you MUST generate them from Revenant discipline instead), can't target Ynnari with any powers but Revenant discipline.
What the heck is a Starglaive (referenced in one of the relics)? Is that an autarch weapon?
Yes. And with +1 to hit from Soulburst, you actually do not want to replace it for CP. Not that you probably really want a foot Autarch in Ynnari at all.
You might want to replace Power sword on Autarch Jetbike though with that d2 damage sword, since it's cheaper than Lance and does MW.
No, auras and abilities still work. Reborn X keyword is worded exactly like Brood Brothers: All instances on the datasheets.
EDIT: actually, you get auras on more units. Since you get Reborn drukhari on all Wych Cult and Kabal units, you have Archon buffing wych cults and succubus buffing kabal, FWIW.
the_scotsman wrote: So you gain a rule that is definitely worse than rising crescendo and PFP, slightly better than Battlefocus and lose your detachment benefit to gain some truly awful Stratagems
You don't seem to lose BF, PFP or Crescendo.
You lose DRUKHARI, ASURYANI, and HARLEQUINS. Don't those abilities require those keywords?
Yep, im actually thinking this isnt such a bad nerf, with PFP, Rising Crescendo, etc.. you could make Quins, Wcyhes, Banshees, Wraiths something scary.
BUT, Court of the Archon are now not allowed in Ynnari
Wait, what makes you say that the Court isn't allowed?
the_scotsman wrote: If wych cults retain PFP and harlequins retain crescendo then I can certainly see this being a usable alternative to a Cult/Masque trait. Even a decent masque trait. Also a very nice alternative to Saim-Hann craft world since you retain the only thing from it you want (s dance and charge on shining spears)
What the heck is a Starglaive (referenced in one of the relics)? Is that an autarch weapon?
Stargalive is the standard powerfist type weapon an Autarch on foot comes with.
I disagree on the Wyches, small squads tend to be objective grabbers or an annoyance, trying to pin down infantry units with the Shardnet, I don't think 10 man units have that much of a roll and a 20 Wych blob is a fairly scary combat unit. 5 man squads don't care about the buff, it's not what they're there for and the 10 man squads need something much bigger to really help them. The 20 Wych blob though gains much more out of their Obsessions, +1A on 20 Wyches is worth a lot more than +1 to hit, especially if it's turn 3, and +1S and moral defence is even better.
You'll be relying very heavily on Ancestors Grace and Unbind Souls to make up the difference IMO.
the_scotsman wrote: So you gain a rule that is definitely worse than rising crescendo and PFP, slightly better than Battlefocus and lose your detachment benefit to gain some truly awful Stratagems
You don't seem to lose BF, PFP or Crescendo.
You lose DRUKHARI, ASURYANI, and HARLEQUINS. Don't those abilities require those keywords?
Yep, im actually thinking this isnt such a bad nerf, with PFP, Rising Crescendo, etc.. you could make Quins, Wcyhes, Banshees, Wraiths something scary.
BUT, Court of the Archon are now not allowed in Ynnari
Wait, what makes you say that the Court isn't allowed?
I read it wrong
PS
Already found a combo i like. Succubus, Having +1 attack and StrWL trait with Hungering Blade (+3S) on a Succubus with +1Str drug is insane. You could have a S8 melee Succubus now 5 attacks, hitting on 2+ with re-rolls to hit.
the_scotsman wrote: No, auras and abilities still work. Reborn X keyword is worded exactly like Brood Brothers: All instances on the datasheets.
EDIT: actually, you get auras on more units. Since you get Reborn drukhari on all Wych Cult and Kabal units, you have Archon buffing wych cults and succubus buffing kabal, FWIW.
the_scotsman wrote: So you gain a rule that is definitely worse than rising crescendo and PFP, slightly better than Battlefocus and lose your detachment benefit to gain some truly awful Stratagems
You don't seem to lose BF, PFP or Crescendo.
You lose DRUKHARI, ASURYANI, and HARLEQUINS. Don't those abilities require those keywords?
Yep, im actually thinking this isnt such a bad nerf, with PFP, Rising Crescendo, etc.. you could make Quins, Wcyhes, Banshees, Wraiths something scary.
BUT, Court of the Archon are now not allowed in Ynnari
Wait, what makes you say that the Court isn't allowed?
I read it wrong
PS
Already found a combo i like. Succubus, Having +1 attack and StrWL trait with Hungering Blade (+3S) on a Succubus with +1Str drug is insane. You could have a S8 melee Succubus now 5 attacks, hitting on 2+ with re-rolls to hit.
A Succubus can't take the Hungering Blade, they don't have access to any of the weapons that you can swap it for.
the_scotsman wrote: So you gain a rule that is definitely worse than rising crescendo and PFP, slightly better than Battlefocus and lose your detachment benefit to gain some truly awful Stratagems
You don't seem to lose BF, PFP or Crescendo.
You lose DRUKHARI, ASURYANI, and HARLEQUINS. Don't those abilities require those keywords?
Yep, im actually thinking this isnt such a bad nerf, with PFP, Rising Crescendo, etc.. you could make Quins, Wcyhes, Banshees, Wraiths something scary.
BUT, Court of the Archon are now not allowed in Ynnari
Wait, what makes you say that the Court isn't allowed?
I read it wrong
PS
Already found a combo i like. Succubus, Having +1 attack and StrWL trait with Hungering Blade (+3S) on a Succubus with +1Str drug is insane. You could have a S8 melee Succubus now 5 attacks, hitting on 2+ with re-rolls to hit.
Can't give the Hungering Blade to a Succubus as she doesn't have the option for a Power Sword, Huskblade or Starglaive.
It is so hilarious that they could not throw the tiny, pitiful bone of having the INCUBI keyword replaced by REBORN DRUKHARI, given how heavily incubi feature in Ynnari fluff.
Nope, gotta spend 2cp on this terrible unit to let them participate even a little bit. Lol.
the_scotsman wrote: If wych cults retain PFP and harlequins retain crescendo then I can certainly see this being a usable alternative to a Cult/Masque trait. Even a decent masque trait. Also a very nice alternative to Saim-Hann craft world since you retain the only thing from it you want (s dance and charge on shining spears)
What the heck is a Starglaive (referenced in one of the relics)? Is that an autarch weapon?
Stargalive is the standard powerfist type weapon an Autarch on foot comes with.
I disagree on the Wyches, small squads tend to be objective grabbers or an annoyance, trying to pin down infantry units with the Shardnet, I don't think 10 man units have that much of a roll and a 20 Wych blob is a fairly scary combat unit. 5 man squads don't care about the buff, it's not what they're there for and the 10 man squads need something much bigger to really help them. The 20 Wych blob though gains much more out of their Obsessions, +1A on 20 Wyches is worth a lot more than +1 to hit, especially if it's turn 3, and +1S and moral defence is even better.
You'll be relying very heavily on Ancestors Grace and Unbind Souls to make up the difference IMO.
Multiple reroll to wound abilities, 5++ psychic power, fearless aura from Yncarne... I dunno, I think there's something there. Not 100% ruling them out as worse than cursed blade yet, I'll have to look it over more.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I’m seeing this as a stop-gap whilst they decide on how to make Ynnari a complete faction in itself.
After all, there’s only so long a mixing of cultures can go on before the differences becomes indivisible. Which is a good thing, if you ask me.
For me, I’d like to see them really play up The Eldar Of Old angle, but with personal restraint being important.
The issue is how they make them sufficiently different while not overly infringing on each existing Eldar faction's theme/specialty.
The Eldar of Old were supposedly both physically adept and psychically powerful. The Dark Eldar kept the physical training up but let their psychic ability atrophy. The Craftworlders kept their psychic ability and have heavier armor in the form of their tanks and wraith constructs. The Harlequins have a bit of both but lack heavy vehicles.
This is not even thinking about what (if anything) Exodites will ever get.
Imateria wrote: Hilariously, even vehicles get SfD now as well, so Venoms are hitting on 3's in combat.
And Starweavers hit on 2s.
Rise of the choppy Eldar-transports!!
The Castellans around the globe tremble!!
Dead. So good.
One big benefit is being able to throw Yvraine into a DE list for psychic support now.
I'm torn on this. It's probably better than a second Archon in a Kabal Battalion, but she's still quite expensive and most of the Revenant powers don't do anything if you're not running an Ynnari force.
I'm torn on this. It's probably better than a second Archon in a Kabal Battalion, but she's still quite expensive and most of the Revenant powers don't do anything if you're not running an Ynnari force.
Yeah. Yvraine solo in a Drukhari list literally is a 132 points Helm of Spite.
I'm torn on this. It's probably better than a second Archon in a Kabal Battalion, but she's still quite expensive and most of the Revenant powers don't do anything if you're not running an Ynnari force.
Yeah. Yvraine solo in a Drukhari list literally is a 132 points Helm of Spite.
At least a Craftworlder gets you Doom.
The only thing the Ynarri characters bring to DE really is another HQ for detachment taxes. Prior to this you needed special characters like drazarh to run double battalions for certain obsessions, now you can alternatively run any of these.
Pain4Pleasure wrote: Shelve your units, boys. Those 3 models are useless now. Not even a shoot twice strat like others get
Nope, this update will actually get these models out of the case and onto my table. Probably the same for many people who hated the stigma surrounding Ynnari.
Imateria wrote: Hilariously, even vehicles get SfD now as well, so Venoms are hitting on 3's in combat.
And Starweavers hit on 2s.
Rise of the choppy Eldar-transports!!
The Castellans around the globe tremble!!
Dead. So good.
One big benefit is being able to throw Yvraine into a DE list for psychic support now.
I'm torn on this. It's probably better than a second Archon in a Kabal Battalion, but she's still quite expensive and most of the Revenant powers don't do anything if you're not running an Ynnari force.
+1 deny and some psychic damage output really. She’s not a slouch in combat either.
I'm torn on this. It's probably better than a second Archon in a Kabal Battalion, but she's still quite expensive and most of the Revenant powers don't do anything if you're not running an Ynnari force.
Yeah. Yvraine solo in a Drukhari list literally is a 132 points Helm of Spite.
At least a Craftworlder gets you Doom.
Well, she's pretty similar in terms of stats to a 70 point Archon, so the question really comes down to "would you pay 50 extra points for two sources of mortal wounds and a deny with +1 to cast?"
I'm torn on this. It's probably better than a second Archon in a Kabal Battalion, but she's still quite expensive and most of the Revenant powers don't do anything if you're not running an Ynnari force.
Yeah. Yvraine solo in a Drukhari list literally is a 132 points Helm of Spite.
At least a Craftworlder gets you Doom.
Well, she's pretty similar in terms of stats to a 70 point Archon, so the question really comes down to "would you pay 50 extra points for two sources of mortal wounds and a deny with +1 to cast?"
Pain4Pleasure wrote: Shelve your units, boys. Those 3 models are useless now. Not even a shoot twice strat like others get
Nope, this update will actually get these models out of the case and onto my table. Probably the same for many people who hated the stigma surrounding Ynnari.
Pain4Pleasure wrote: Shelve your units, boys. Those 3 models are useless now. Not even a shoot twice strat like others get
Nope, this update will actually get these models out of the case and onto my table. Probably the same for many people who hated the stigma surrounding Ynnari.
Same here. Will add some variety to my Quins.
Ah, two non competitives? Then yes have fun! I guess I should of specified. SERIOUS PLAYERS! The shelf or trash they go. Now we can laugh when we see these models on the table.
Well, either way Ynnari is an all cc-focussed army now. That clearly just doesn't work for eldar models, especially since there's not even a fight twice strat for Ynnari, no Hive commander, etc.., nothing. They aren't gonna hang with Genestealers or Custodes or even Death Company, Wulfen, Aberrants, even Necron Wraiths, or what have you, even if they get a glorious +1 to hit after they kill one of those units.
Maybe some lists will add a few Ynnari Wraithblades or Harlequins to their list as a counter-charge or bully element alongside Ravagers and Crimson Hunters or whatnot? Perhaps, though even there I don't see what they would add that Cursed Blade Wyches or old-fashioned Grotesque/Talos don't do better, and it hardly qualifies as a Ynnari army IMO.
Pain4Pleasure wrote: Shelve your units, boys. Those 3 models are useless now. Not even a shoot twice strat like others get
Nope, this update will actually get these models out of the case and onto my table. Probably the same for many people who hated the stigma surrounding Ynnari.
Same here. Will add some variety to my Quins.
Ah, two non competitives? Then yes have fun! I guess I should of specified. SERIOUS PLAYERS! The shelf or trash they go. Now we can laugh when we see these models on the table.
who's this "we" you refer to? What's non competitive mean, exactly? "Serious" players? Not sure which side will be laughing more actually.
drakerocket wrote: Half damage wraith seerer who gives his three wraithlord buddies 5++ with his new psychic power isnt bad
was looking at the wraithseer but I'm not sure he replaces hsi psychic powers with the ynnari ones, it seems to have been missed from the list of what psychic disciplines need to be replaced.
This is a shame. I just put together all the pieces for running the Sean Nayden hero hammer list too. Would have been fun to try and run Yncarne in a competitive game.
Competetively or not, my guess many players would probably prefer to stay within their own codices, which are more balanced and have more options, than cherry pick a small handful of relics, spells and stratagems from Ynnari which actually work.
At least until Ynnari characters would get a point drop maybe.
I did some cleaning up, I would like to remind all participants of this topic that Rule #1, to be polite to one another, is not optional. Any more breaches of this will result in further warnings and suspensions.
I'm not seeing where in the leaked rules that Ynnari lose Battle Focus, Strength from Death, or Rising Crescendo. (These rules aren't detachment abilities, stratagems, warlord traits, or any of the specific things that are mentioned as being lost.)
Jimsolo wrote: I'm not seeing where in the leaked rules that Ynnari lose Battle Focus, Strength from Death, or Rising Crescendo. (These rules aren't detachment abilities, stratagems, warlord traits, or any of the specific things that are mentioned as being lost.)
Did I miss a line in there?
They don't.
They "only" lose stratagems, army traits and psychic support from their "home" codex.
Thus things like Wyches, maybe Drukhari Jetbikes and Hellions, probably come out best, since they have few super-cool strats, don't rely in psychic and get a lot of milage out of equipment, combat drugs, etc.. For them, Ynnari essentially becomes another option next to Cursed Blade, Red Grief, etc..
They obviously took away all the things that made Craftworld such a popular option over Drukhari and Harlequin Ynnari, psychics and strats.
Harlequin Ynnari no longer lose Rising Cresendo, which is nice, but losing double-move via. Twlight Pathways and losing access to a double fight strat (as well as some other useful things like Silken Knife, etc..) is painful (funny how non-Ynnari Harlequins now own Ynnari in the department of double moves and double fighting).
Argive wrote: I think that there might be some merit to a wraith focused force Ive been thinking about which might actualy be fun now
That's where I was leaning to with Craftworlds too. I will have to balance the abilities of Iyanden and Vigilus detachment and the new Ynnari flavour. With the latter you do get possible invulns on wraithblades, and wraithlords around a Ynnari psyker with the shield of Ynnead (spiritseer obviously). The reroll wound strat on a unit of soulbursting wraithblades ain't shabby either (meaning Doom from another detachment can be used on a different target).
harlequin troupes might get some use too, but no bikes as they can't use prismatic blur.
So now that ynari is gimmic, The question is, do they drop points back for CWE units in the upcoming FAQ??? Yeah Im no good at jokes..
Its melee focus now, not gimmick.
And why would they? a few things got cheaper, the only things that went up NEEDED to go up regardless if its Ynnari or Not, Dark Reapers and Shining Spears for sure were under costed/
Ynnari now will be more focus on playing more units, easier to understand and play, but will help different units, units that needs help (Many Wych Units, Many CWE melee units, Harlequins) i would rather those units get a better update, but they will now be viable more so.
Argive wrote: I think that there might be some merit to a wraith focused force Ive been thinking about which might actualy be fun now
That's where I was leaning to with Craftworlds too. I will have to balance the abilities of Iyanden and Vigilus detachment and the new Ynnari flavour. With the latter you do get possible invulns on wraithblades, and wraithlords around a Ynnari psyker with the shield of Ynnead (spiritseer obviously). The reroll wound strat on a unit of soulbursting wraithblades ain't shabby either (meaning Doom from another detachment can be used on a different target).
harlequin troupes might get some use too, but no bikes as they can't use prismatic blur.
I think they loose too much going Ynnari. I play with and against Wraithguard/blades quite a lot and to get them to do work relies a lot on the Vigilas re-roll charges warlord trait, 4++ strat, Protect, Quicken, Fortune, Matchless Agility, the Psytronome and the Iyanden strat, as well as the obvious Doom and Jinx. There's definitely a few things that help but the strength and depth of them just doesnt match.
Argive wrote: I think that there might be some merit to a wraith focused force Ive been thinking about which might actualy be fun now
That's where I was leaning to with Craftworlds too. I will have to balance the abilities of Iyanden and Vigilus detachment and the new Ynnari flavour. With the latter you do get possible invulns on wraithblades, and wraithlords around a Ynnari psyker with the shield of Ynnead (spiritseer obviously). The reroll wound strat on a unit of soulbursting wraithblades ain't shabby either (meaning Doom from another detachment can be used on a different target).
harlequin troupes might get some use too, but no bikes as they can't use prismatic blur.
I think they loose too much going Ynnari. I play with and against Wraithguard/blades quite a lot and to get them to do work relies a lot on the Vigilas re-roll charges warlord trait, 4++ strat, Protect, Quicken, Fortune, Matchless Agility, the Psytronome and the Iyanden strat, as well as the obvious Doom and Jinx. There's definitely a few things that help but the strength and depth of them just doesnt match.
I think that really sums up how this Index feels. Some units benefit from going Ynnari, sure. But not as much as if they just stayed in their native faction.
Argive wrote: Dunno man. With a double d3 heal (wop & a bonesinger) 5++ bubble wraithlords spearhead is starting to look interesting.
That gets +1 to hit, re-roll 1's to hit, re-roll wounds, and you can bring back a dead one as well and finally a 6+++ if you take that and are near them.
I'm torn on this. It's probably better than a second Archon in a Kabal Battalion, but she's still quite expensive and most of the Revenant powers don't do anything if you're not running an Ynnari force.
Yeah. Yvraine solo in a Drukhari list literally is a 132 points Helm of Spite.
At least a Craftworlder gets you Doom.
I mean, she does double-smite, she's not totally useless.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The biggest problem I think structurally is having to take 1 ynnari hero per detachment, because ideally you'd have 3 detachments, and the yncarne is just...yikes. Something that's less useful than a basic CSM winged daemon prince for about double the point cost... Visarch and Yvraine both seem serviceable.
So the way i'm looking at it currently the best bang for your buck would seem to be two detachment structure for your main force, with a Ynnari Craftworld detachment and a Ynnari drukhari detachment, focused on wych cults. banshees help you avoid overwatch, wyches keep things tied up in combat, and you rely on your wound reroll abilities to make things die.
Amishprn86 wrote: Yeah, Ynnari still has their Doom, you wont lose Doom esk in Soups even if the real Doom is nerf.
Yvarine in DE isnt bad just to have, especially if you want double battalion with Kabal now.
Or Visarch, either. He's basically a better beatstick archon in and of himself. TBH secondary archons are usually such deadweight for me I'd probably bring both visarch and yvraine in a double kabal battalion list.
Yvraine takes Gaze of Ynnead and Unbind Souls just in case she and Visarch get into combat with something they'd like to reroll wounds against, Visarch just chills near her and gives her rerolls of 1 to hit.
I can't think of any two non-warlord non-relic holding DEhq's they're not better than, with Yvraine as the first priority (two psychic denies with +1 and a nice reliable source of 4 MW's per turn, sounds great) and Visarch as the second
So the way i'm looking at it currently the best bang for your buck would seem to be two detachment structure for your main force, with a Ynnari Craftworld detachment and a Ynnari drukhari detachment, focused on wych cults. banshees help you avoid overwatch, wyches keep things tied up in combat, and you rely on your wound reroll abilities to make things die.
That will suffer the same issue as Harlequin troupes and other melee MSU stuff out there: The combat-interrupt stratagem. In a world where 30-strong Bloodletter units are considered glass-cannons, trying to bring down stuff in cc with a bunch of 5-10 man units and support characters, T3 for the most part, when any Knight Gallant or Genestealer blob or even medicore stuff like large Death Company units can go 2nd for 2 CP, just isn't viable. Not to mention no bonus to charge from deep strike. No Hive Commander or DMC to get stuff across the board. And a meta where people must be able to fight against things like GSC or Da Jumping Ork mobs or even "fun, fluffy" armies like triple Gallants or Lord Discordant/Maulerfiend rush.
So the way i'm looking at it currently the best bang for your buck would seem to be two detachment structure for your main force, with a Ynnari Craftworld detachment and a Ynnari drukhari detachment, focused on wych cults. banshees help you avoid overwatch, wyches keep things tied up in combat, and you rely on your wound reroll abilities to make things die.
That will suffer the same issue as Harlequin troupes and other melee MSU stuff out there: The combat-interrupt stratagem. In a world where 30-strong Bloodletter units are considered glass-cannons, trying to bring down stuff in cc with a bunch of 5-10 man units and support characters, T3 for the most part, when any Knight Gallant or Genestealer blob or even medicore stuff like large Death Company units can go 2nd for 2 CP, just isn't viable. Not to mention no bonus to charge from deep strike. No Hive Commander or DMC to get stuff across the board. And a meta where people must be able to fight against things like GSC or Da Jumping Ork mobs or even "fun, fluffy" armies like triple Gallants or Lord Discordant/Maulerfiend rush.
Not seeing it.
You need to use those melee units as utility melee, not hammers. Banshees jumping out of a Wave Serpent turn 2 to charge 2-3 units of Tau, stop overwatch, with +1 attacks, +1 to hit, re-roll hits of 1, and re-roll all wounds, 4 attack each -3ap, then consolidate into a unit that cant kill you, surround it, spend CP to fallback and charge again next turn. Now you have to unit that cant be killed jumping from combat to combat, even if you dont buff them they are stopping OW and tying up a unit.
You have Storm Guardians as Troops, having 30 of these guys wont kill off that many Orks, but 3 units fighting first, now you are able to kill some before you die, with a 5++/6+++ you never know, you might keep a couple alive.
Troupes would more or less be getting 5 attacks with all re-rolls hitting on 2+ wounding on 3+ vs T3/T4 you wouldnt take a small unit, you would take a 12 man and high them, with -1 to wound, a 4++/6+++ and can bring back a model, then with -1 to hit if Tau wants to shoot them, its not really a worth wild target for the 30 S5 (wounding on 4) hits with no bonus from markerlights, now you'll run and charge, with an Autarch and Banshees taking the Overwatch (even a 5man unit of banshees for OW stopping), you'll have 60 atacks hitting on 2+, re-roll , wound on 3+/4+ (if T4 or T5) with re-rolls -2ap on average thats 44 wounds after saves vs Orks, Tau, IG.
I think you can make it work well, its going to be harder for sure.
Pain4Pleasure wrote: Shelve your units, boys. Those 3 models are useless now. Not even a shoot twice strat like others get
Nope, this update will actually get these models out of the case and onto my table. Probably the same for many people who hated the stigma surrounding Ynnari.
Same here. Will add some variety to my Quins.
Ah, two non competitives? Then yes have fun! I guess I should of specified. SERIOUS PLAYERS! The shelf or trash they go. Now we can laugh when we see these models on the table.
I'm not sure how WH40k can ever be serious business other than to those that make a living selling or producing it?
If you bought them based on power level, then you should know that things will change. GW is actively attempting to balance the game, and with that, sometimes things go well, and sometimes they don't. They may have gone too far here, but if you are upset because soulburst no longer lets you get 20-30cp for free per game in extra activations and its brought in line to not provide such a negative game experience, then I'm sorry. I honestly don't know what to say other than I wouldn't buy broken stuff because its broken and expect it never to change. If that was your expectation, your expectation was wrong.
I think GW has kind of shown that they aren't afraid to really shake things up with their CA and FAQ releases. I think GW has also shown that they will risk making a lot of people upset for the attempt to better balance the game, referencing the fallout over the rule of 3 when it was introduced.
All of this is not to say that all of their balancing decisiosn have been spot on or perfect, far from it, but they have shown that when things are too good, they will try to make it better.
Argive wrote: Dunno man. With a double d3 heal (wop & a bonesinger) 5++ bubble wraithlords spearhead is starting to look interesting.
That gets +1 to hit, re-roll 1's to hit, re-roll wounds, and you can bring back a dead one as well and finally a 6+++ if you take that and are near them.
I was thinking about this all day long on my way back from a convention and ITC tournament today while we were going through it (long drive)
Bringing back wraithguard or wraithblades, (especially when wraithblades are getting the +1 to hit) with double heal, man, that feels like it might be really strong. When things settle and I can get my hands on the WD, ill start testing it. I also, (even though you can't give him the discipline) think a wraithseer with the half-damage and 5+++ would be really interesting too...
Ok, not got the codices with me, due to being at work right now, but a question for someone that has them to hand.
IIRC Power from Pain, Rising Cresendo, Battle Focus etc are all listed as Army Abilities on the pages before the unit datasheets. Are these listed as Drukahri/Harlequin/Craftworlds abilities or Asuraryni etc abilities? Because if they are just Craftworld etc abilities then Ynnari won’t be able to use them without an FAQ to determine where or not they are a “detachment ability” or not.
All in all though, I can see Ynnari detachments and characters dropping off massively now in favour of just regular Craftworlds/Drukahri detachments. Eldar are a shooty army, rather than a combat army. It doesn’t matter really if you’re hitting on 2’s (after shooting a unit to death first) if you’re always wounding on 5+’s due to being str 3. It works for Shining Spears and Wraithblades but beyond that the uses are limited.
I’ve been informed that the FAQ is dropping sometime today (Monday). So, beyond the Castellan nerf it’ll be interesting to see what else changes as some Eldar changes could affect the new Ynnari even more.
Amishprn86 wrote: You need to use those melee units as utility melee, not hammers. Banshees jumping out of a Wave Serpent turn 2 to charge 2-3 units of Tau, stop overwatch, with +1 attacks, +1 to hit, re-roll hits of 1, and re-roll all wounds, 4 attack each -3ap, then consolidate into a unit that cant kill you, surround it, spend CP to fallback and charge again next turn. Now you have to unit that cant be killed jumping from combat to combat, even if you dont buff them they are stopping OW and tying up a unit.
You can pull off a charge with Banshees even on turn 1. But not with Ynnari, because you do not have Matchless Agility to reliably get 6 on advance.
To get +1 to attacks you need 3 units of every faction in the list.
I don't know where you get re-rolls.
Banshees are 2 attacks by default.
You can do almost as good if not better with pure Craftworlds by being Biel-Tan and casting Doom on enemy, without wasting loads of CP.
The truth is, if you want to play some melee units from Craftworlds, even the most average options from Craftworlds would do it better than Ynnari, and you would keep all the best Craftworld stuff.
Amishprn86 wrote: You need to use those melee units as utility melee, not hammers. Banshees jumping out of a Wave Serpent turn 2 to charge 2-3 units of Tau, stop overwatch, with +1 attacks, +1 to hit, re-roll hits of 1, and re-roll all wounds, 4 attack each -3ap, then consolidate into a unit that cant kill you, surround it, spend CP to fallback and charge again next turn. Now you have to unit that cant be killed jumping from combat to combat, even if you dont buff them they are stopping OW and tying up a unit.
You can pull off a charge with Banshees even on turn 1. But not with Ynnari, because you do not have Matchless Agility to reliably get 6 on advance. To get +1 to attacks you need 3 units of every faction in the list. I don't know where you get re-rolls. Banshees are 2 attacks by default.
Re-rolls hits is a power re-roll wounds is a stratagem. You can also just take a Visarch as he has a re-roll hits of 1 Aura now.
Wraith units can be made useful with ynnari.
The biggest winner is probably the Wraithseer. Even if he can't get the revenant psychic powers. The lost shroud relic (half damage and 5+++) and one of the warlord traits (probably 6" consolidate/heroic intervene) with the possibility to heal back up could make him quite good.
Also Wraithguards and Wraithscythes. But why? They are the shooty ones... Yes, but they are ok at melee too. Now with the Ynnari buff they are good at shooting, above average at melee and tough. Making them a really good all-round unit. Especially the Wraithscythes, since they can always fallback and shoot. Basicly, flame a good flame target and then charge a good multiwound target (fists are d3 damage). You can do this already, but hitting on 2+ and always fight first might be pretty big for them.
Also, you could do an all out psychic-pewpew force. With access to so many mortal wound psychic spells, you could do a MW-special force group. It's not game breaking or anything, but if you like psychers, you have even more to play with now. Executioner (CW), Mind War (CW), Mirror of Minds (Harl), Shards of Light (Harl), Gaze of Ynnead (Ynnari), Storms of whisper (Ynnari). 4 casters casting something + smite and then Warlocks with the Ynnari powers because they only have a minismite anyways.
Nothing really gamebreaking, but there are some possibilities.
Weidekuh wrote: Wraith units can be made useful with ynnari.
The biggest winner is probably the Wraithseer. Even if he can't get the revenant psychic powers. The lost shroud relic (half damage and 5+++) and one of the warlord traits (probably 6" consolidate/heroic intervene) with the possibility to heal back up could make him quite good.
Also Wraithguards and Wraithscythes. But why? They are the shooty ones... Yes, but they are ok at melee too. Now with the Ynnari buff they are good at shooting, above average at melee and tough. Making them a really good all-round unit. Especially the Wraithscythes, since they can always fallback and shoot. Basicly, flame a good flame target and then charge a good multiwound target (fists are d3 damage). You can do this already, but hitting on 2+ and always fight first might be pretty big for them.
Also, you could do an all out psychic-pewpew force. With access to so many mortal wound psychic spells, you could do a MW-special force group. It's not game breaking or anything, but if you like psychers, you have even more to play with now. Executioner (CW), Mind War (CW), Mirror of Minds (Harl), Shards of Light (Harl), Gaze of Ynnead (Ynnari), Storms of whisper (Ynnari). 4 casters casting something + smite and then Warlocks with the Ynnari powers because they only have a minismite anyways.
Nothing really gamebreaking, but there are some possibilities.
The only possibilty I liked here is the mass psychic damag one. Personally I'd go with the +1S and A warlord trait on a Wraithseer, 5 S10 attacks beats 4 S9 anyday.
With Wraithguard, if you want them to do work Ynnari will not help them. You want a 10 man unit because those flamers are only D3 shots and D1 but it's now a 430pt unit. So you're using the Vigilus strat to give them a 4++, Protect to make it effectively 2+/3++, throw in Fortune for 5+++ because you really want this unit to live beyond a turn, Matchless Agility for an auto 6" advance, Quicken to move again for a 22" move and a 30" threat range on their flamers. Doom and Jinx are the final buffs though you can get them with Ynnari as well, you'll just need a separate non Ynnari detachment for it.
Visarch is a bit too slow to follow Banshees, he can't charge after Advancing.
Autarch with Swooping Hawk wings is 85pts, faster and gives the re-roll 1's. With the Hungering Blade and Warden of Souls warlord trait he'll be better in combat than the Visarch as well (ironic that Autarchs now finally have a good weapon available to them but it comes at the price of an aweful army) for nearly 40pts less.
Amishprn86 wrote: Yeah, Ynnari still has their Doom, you wont lose Doom esk in Soups even if the real Doom is nerf.
Yvarine in DE isnt bad just to have, especially if you want double battalion with Kabal now.
Or Visarch, either. He's basically a better beatstick archon in and of himself. TBH secondary archons are usually such deadweight for me I'd probably bring both visarch and yvraine in a double kabal battalion list.
Yvraine takes Gaze of Ynnead and Unbind Souls just in case she and Visarch get into combat with something they'd like to reroll wounds against, Visarch just chills near her and gives her rerolls of 1 to hit.
I can't think of any two non-warlord non-relic holding DEhq's they're not better than, with Yvraine as the first priority (two psychic denies with +1 and a nice reliable source of 4 MW's per turn, sounds great) and Visarch as the second
I agree that the Visarch is better in combat than an Archon, I just don't think he's 45pts better.
Imateria wrote: The only possibilty I liked here is the mass psychic damag one. Personally I'd go with the +1S and A warlord trait on a Wraithseer, 5 S10 attacks beats 4 S9 anyday.
With Wraithguard, if you want them to do work Ynnari will not help them. You want a 10 man unit because those flamers are only D3 shots and D1 but it's now a 430pt unit. So you're using the Vigilus strat to give them a 4++, Protect to make it effectively 2+/3++, throw in Fortune for 5+++ because you really want this unit to live beyond a turn, Matchless Agility for an auto 6" advance, Quicken to move again for a 22" move and a 30" threat range on their flamers. Doom and Jinx are the final buffs though you can get them with Ynnari as well, you'll just need a separate non Ynnari detachment for it.
I am having a little trouble following you here.
If you want to deliver them, wouldn't you just stick them in a Wave Serpent? From what I understand, the wave serpent is still a valid unit selection in Y'nnari. I also don't think the damage profile is a problem if you feel that you need the armor penetration, wouldn't you just take wraith cannons? Otherwise 5 or 6 D3, even at 1 damage a piece is still pretty destructive at getting rid of dudes, especially when you can follow it up with a bunch of S5 AP-1 D3 damage fists (well, 5 or 6 of them).
I mean, in the scenario you outlined, its a 430 point unit, backed up by a Spiritseer, 2 command points, a warlock at a minimum, a Farseer, then another command point for matchless agility, then potentially doom (which I am going to assume would be done by the same farseer) and jinx, done by something else? so, 3CP, 220 points of support spread across 2 stratagems, a specialist detachment, and a minimum of 3 psychic powers (and if you go the full monty of Doom and Jinx, 5 psychic powers and another warlock, making your support for them quite expensive at approximately 275 points and 3 models). I understand that you are outlining why playing them in Craftworld Aeldari would be better, but if you are taking Y'nnari anyway because that is what the list synergizes well with and you want some additional fire support, it seems like they would be fine for 215 points for 5 dudes that can jump in a wave serpent for another 147 points and have some mortal wound output, the ability to eat elite infantry or to take a relatively decent chunk out of armored troops, and not be a pushover in melee.
so, I'm not sure that just being Ynnari is supposed to give you that level of advantage, in fact, i would argue that the level of advantage conferred by Ynnari before the change over is kind of exactly why it's being changed.
Autarch with Swooping Hawk wings is 85pts, faster and gives the re-roll 1's. With the Hungering Blade and Warden of Souls warlord trait he'll be better in combat than the Visarch as well (ironic that Autarchs now finally have a good weapon available to them but it comes at the price of an aweful army) for nearly 40pts less.
How is an Autarch with Swooping Hawk Wings 85 points?
Imateria wrote: The only possibilty I liked here is the mass psychic damag one. Personally I'd go with the +1S and A warlord trait on a Wraithseer, 5 S10 attacks beats 4 S9 anyday.
With Wraithguard, if you want them to do work Ynnari will not help them. You want a 10 man unit because those flamers are only D3 shots and D1 but it's now a 430pt unit. So you're using the Vigilus strat to give them a 4++, Protect to make it effectively 2+/3++, throw in Fortune for 5+++ because you really want this unit to live beyond a turn, Matchless Agility for an auto 6" advance, Quicken to move again for a 22" move and a 30" threat range on their flamers. Doom and Jinx are the final buffs though you can get them with Ynnari as well, you'll just need a separate non Ynnari detachment for it.
I am having a little trouble following you here.
If you want to deliver them, wouldn't you just stick them in a Wave Serpent? From what I understand, the wave serpent is still a valid unit selection in Y'nnari. I also don't think the damage profile is a problem if you feel that you need the armor penetration, wouldn't you just take wraith cannons? Otherwise 5 or 6 D3, even at 1 damage a piece is still pretty destructive at getting rid of dudes, especially when you can follow it up with a bunch of S5 AP-1 D3 damage fists (well, 5 or 6 of them).
I mean, in the scenario you outlined, its a 430 point unit, backed up by a Spiritseer, 2 command points, a warlock at a minimum, a Farseer, then another command point for matchless agility, then potentially doom (which I am going to assume would be done by the same farseer) and jinx, done by something else? so, 3CP, 220 points of support spread across 2 stratagems, a specialist detachment, and a minimum of 3 psychic powers (and if you go the full monty of Doom and Jinx, 5 psychic powers and another warlock, making your support for them quite expensive at approximately 275 points and 3 models). I understand that you are outlining why playing them in Craftworld Aeldari would be better, but if you are taking Y'nnari anyway because that is what the list synergizes well with and you want some additional fire support, it seems like they would be fine for 215 points for 5 dudes that can jump in a wave serpent for another 147 points and have some mortal wound output, the ability to eat elite infantry or to take a relatively decent chunk out of armored troops, and not be a pushover in melee.
so, I'm not sure that just being Ynnari is supposed to give you that level of advantage, in fact, i would argue that the level of advantage conferred by Ynnari before the change over is kind of exactly why it's being changed.
In my experience 5 man squads in Wave Serpents don't do much, they get out and flame something, maybe kill it if they're very lucky, almost certainly don't make their points back and then get shot to bits. If you're running with cannons then you absolutely have to have Guide, you've only got 5 shots and chances are 1 turn to use them, you cannot afford to miss. The point I was trying to make but didn't get across well is that Wraiths are an OK at best unit and need a significant level of support to really work and running them Ynnari means you don't have that support in exchange for a very minor buff to their close combat ability.
Looks like they just did not have the balls to squat them, so instead they make them worthless and not worth taking and then they just disappear next edition when everyone has forgotten about them.
You could do wraithlords and wraithseer with the lost shroud artifact, and back them up with a ynnari detachment of birds, glorious, glorious birds, giving birds the shield of ynnead spell makes them 3 ppw 5++. If you MUST run the yncarne, then add 6+++ to them all but that's less important. You don't have to make yvraine or yncarne warlord though for one command point may as well make the yncarne warlord and give the wraithseer the command point warlord trait
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