So, the New Zealand page for the White Dwarf is up. You can read the general army rules in a picture.
No named characters in Ynnari other than the 3 Ynnari specifics. And no Solitaire
Basically, no more using non Ynnari stratagems and psychic powers on Ynnari units. Also, they replace the <Faction> with Reborn Eldar-Type.
Beasts, Scourges, and Incubi can be included in Ynnari armies without breaking solid detachment rules but don't get Strength From Death, either.
Including the characters in a detachment lets you decide if it is a standard Craftworld, Drukhari, or Harlequins without giving up specific faction bonuses (but no such bonus for the Ynnari character.) Alternatively, you can decide that it is an Ynnari Detachment and all units gain Ynnari keyword (and faction changes mentioned above).
Strength From Death: (effects all Ynnari units in a Battle Forged non Superheavy Auxiliary detachment)
Once any unit dies all Ynnari units get to benefit from "Soulburst actions" which seems to be an Always Strike First (alternate with chargers, etc) for the rest of the turn. If the Ynnari unit had an Always Strike First type rule or charged that turn they can add 1 to their to hit rolls with melee weapons that turn.
No word if there are other things involved with "Soulburst actions" or if that was just flavor text now.
So, it seems that GW finally realised that in a game with limited turns and actions being able to have your entire army act twice as many times as the enemy was a little unbalanced.
What's your opinion on the nerf? Are Ynnari an non-viable army on the scale of Grey Knights now, a mid level army or will the nerfs do nothing and the 5th round of nerfs still not do their job?
It's going to depend entirely on what psychic powers and stratagems Ynnari get. The ability to have everyone strike first seems pretty good, but it's certainly not worth losing doom / guide / jinx / fortune / protect spells. So if they get those, then yea maybe they'll still have some viable armies.
Too early to tell really. For sure it is going to be much weaker (good) but it might have some interesting options to make it fun to play and actually feel like a different army.
6 psychic powers. 14 strats. Relics. We have to wait until we see everything, but I’d be shocked if we fall. I hope we grow. Stronger, where a guardian can single handeldy take on a castellan. That’s how it should be
Well inControl sad multiple times that Ynnari will be nerfed to the ground. Led`s hope that the they given them at least something that will make playable.
As a Craftworld Eldar I'm tired of people whining about Eldar because a silly and poorly written "faction" consisting of three models was breaking the game.
Next up: -1 to hit army traits. Progress.
PS: I have a general disdain for micro-factions which shouldn't really be armies (read: Grey Knights, Harlequins, etc.) with Ynnari being one of the worst. What they should have done, honestly, was make a couple of specialist detachments which could be taken (two for Craftworld and two for Dark Eldar) where you took an Ynnari character and gave X units the <YNARRI> faction keyword or something. That way they have a little tiny narrative slice of the pie befitting their silly models. It would have been an easy fix. However I fully expect a full-Ynnari re-make of the Eldar in the next two years.
Depends on what rest of the index contains, but I would almost say that Alaitoc reigns again as the best Craftworld trait.
We will have to see what stratagems and psychic powers they contain. However, it will be interesting to see if Ynnari starts to slowly disappear from tournament play.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Are Ynnari an non-viable army on the scale of Grey Knights now, a mid level army or will the nerfs do nothing and the 5th round of nerfs still not do their job?
Unless there are some awesome traits, psychic powers, or stratagem, I must say that I feel safe in the fact that I've been playing Craftworld/Drukhari as of late and not played Ynnari .
BaconCatBug wrote: Are Ynnari an non-viable army on the scale of Grey Knights now
They are combined eldar and dark eldar, the only question will be if they have any place next to a more conventional allied force.
The change to power from death was pre-empted by the change to the extra-actions faith of the sisters, so not really unexpected.
The image quality is pretty low, but i think you are unable to make Homoncolus units Ynnari and that really limits them, since they are the only really good aeldar melee units.
Blades are overcoasted as hell and banshee and scorpions are just terrible. Spears were good mainly because of the double action. Troupe and wyches benefit more from their faction trait.
So Ynnari have trait that noone really need.
What it seem interesting is that you are able to include Ynnari characters without being forced the detachment to become Ynnari. If they finally fix Visarch and Yncarne maybe it will allow interesting game play.
I see we're still forced to use the fething special characters in order to play Ynnari. Because God forbid GW do anything fun or interesting with them.
Unless the Psychic powers, stratagems, relics and warlord traits are all amazing, Ynnari is now by far the worst way you can play an Aeldari army, every unit in all 3 codexes looses far more than they gain from this, and for some reason Scourge and Incubi can't be Ynnari which makes no sense whatsoever.
Galas wrote: Maybe the soulburst double turn actions are now stratagems or psychic powers.
I would say this is almost certainly the case.
Seems fine so far. I'm betting this all only applies to detachments so you could still take a Craftworld detachment for Doom, e.t.c.
By the looks of it it specifically calls out Psychic Powers that target Asuryani units so you could still take Doom in an Ynnari detachment as that effects your opponents units.
Imateria wrote: Unless the Psychic powers, stratagems, relics and warlord traits are all amazing, Ynnari is now by far the worst way you can play an Aeldari army, every unit in all 3 codexes looses far more than they gain from this, and for some reason Scourge and Incubi can't be Ynnari which makes no sense whatsoever.
Galas wrote: Maybe the soulburst double turn actions are now stratagems or psychic powers.
I would say this is almost certainly the case.
Seems fine so far. I'm betting this all only applies to detachments so you could still take a Craftworld detachment for Doom, e.t.c.
By the looks of it it specifically calls out Psychic Powers that target Asuryani units so you could still take Doom in an Ynnari detachment as that effects your opponents units.
vipoid wrote: I see we're still forced to use the fething special characters in order to play Ynnari. Because God forbid GW do anything fun or interesting with them.
Are we certain of that? There are 6 warlord traits, does it specifically state that HQ units in a Ynnari detachment can't be the warlord (Farseers etc)?
vipoid wrote: I see we're still forced to use the fething special characters in order to play Ynnari. Because God forbid GW do anything fun or interesting with them.
Are we certain of that? There are 6 warlord traits, does it specifically state that HQ units in a Ynnari detachment can't be the warlord (Farseers etc)?
I didn't say they had to be your Warlord, I said you had to include them if you want to use Ynnari at all.
I see we have.. MANY members here who are taking this one word of passage as all the ynnari get. A whole list of strats unknown. 6 paychic powers unknown. Relics unknown. Possible even more new special rules or detachments unknown. The way this ONE phrase is worded sounds as if there is a soulburst action for each phase, this one ONLY touches on the fighting phase. I think many people are reading this and assuming it’s all that’s in the white dwarf. I’m sorry but,. You’re sorely mistaken. So just wait for more, ynnari as of now are NOT nerfed to the ground
Wayniac wrote: About time. Although I'm sure the competitive crowd will get off that bandwagon in droves now that's its not OP.
That just means more IG + IK in tourneys. Fun for days.
Ynnari were irritating to play against, that nerf was long overdue. Now we wait for the IG and Castellan nerf in the FAQ.
The one(along with soup killing) that was FOR SURE in CA2018?-)
I'll believe that when I see it. Castellan sells too well for GW.
Perhaps the Castellan is selling well, but it's presence is basically making other vehicle kits undesirable. I'd expect them to want to reset that balance over this next year.
I was fine with the nerf till i read a lot of somments that says it is worded that i cant I play Yncarne with my solitaire anymore (I dont care about the Ynnari nerf, i just wanted Yncarne in my Harlequins with the Solitaire). SO feth GW if that is true.
Wayniac wrote: About time. Although I'm sure the competitive crowd will get off that bandwagon in droves now that's its not OP.
That just means more IG + IK in tourneys. Fun for days.
Ynnari were irritating to play against, that nerf was long overdue. Now we wait for the IG and Castellan nerf in the FAQ.
I think the difference is that over the past year we have seen nerfs to Ynnari even though were gradual up until now. IG + Castellan, however, have been allowed to be in peace for the most part.
I guess the Big FAQ will tell, although I believe we won't see that much nerfing in it as many assume. At best I believe we'll see some beta rules or suggestions to level the playing field more than anything else.
For the record I've played Ynnari myself three times since they were originally released so this nerf won't affect me as much.
The more I think about this change, the more I think it's potentially a buff to Ynnari as a cohesive army. The old Strength From Death strongly encouraged you to just have a small Ynnari detachment with a big unit of Spears and Dark Reapers, whereas this feels more like you could plausibly have a whole Ynnari list. It's really going to be the stratagems and psychic powers that make or break it.
In particular I can see Harlequins being potentially interesting with the new SFD, as they get to keep Rising Crescendo and gain +1 to hit in melee.
Burnage wrote: The more I think about this change, the more I think it's potentially a buff to Ynnari as a cohesive army. The old Strength From Death strongly encouraged you to just have a small Ynnari detachment with a big unit of Spears and Dark Reapers, whereas this feels more like you could plausibly have a whole Ynnari list. It's really going to be the stratagems and psychic powers that make or break it.
In particular I can see Harlequins being potentially interesting with the new SFD, as they get to keep Rising Crescendo and gain +1 to hit in melee.
And no Solitaire, cant have it with a Ynnari detachment or character, why take quins if you cant take a solitaire? You'll need 2 detachments.... But no.. Imperial can spend 1Cp for any assassin they want..
I see Dakka isn’t learning.. we have 5% of the rules exposed. Still psychic powers relics strats everything. I can’t wait until a broken combo is discovered and then people are all “no no nerf again nerf again! The ynnari is unfair oh woe is me and my stupid non aeldari army!”
I see Dakka isn’t learning.. we have 5% of the rules exposed. Still psychic powers relics strats everything. I can’t wait until a broken combo is discovered and then people are all “no no nerf again nerf again! The ynnari is unfair oh woe is me and my stupid non aeldari army!”
Eh. Even if their psychic powers and stratagems turn out to be absolutely outrageous, the new Ynnari are really going to struggle to produce anything that's anywhere near as bad as Ynnari Reapers and Shining Spears have been in the past.
I see Dakka isn’t learning.. we have 5% of the rules exposed. Still psychic powers relics strats everything. I can’t wait until a broken combo is discovered and then people are all “no no nerf again nerf again! The ynnari is unfair oh woe is me and my stupid non aeldari army!”
Eh. Even if their psychic powers and stratagems turn out to be absolutely outrageous, the new Ynnari are really going to struggle to produce anything that's anywhere near as bad as Ynnari Reapers and Shining Spears have been in the past.
You’re saying this with know knowledge of the relics strats or powers at all. For all we know a combo will make something else just as broken. Plus reapers and Spears has a points increase due to double actions. I expect GW to decrease their points since the reason their points were increased in the first place is no longer a thing.
I see Dakka isn’t learning.. we have 5% of the rules exposed. Still psychic powers relics strats everything. I can’t wait until a broken combo is discovered and then people are all “no no nerf again nerf again! The ynnari is unfair oh woe is me and my stupid non aeldari army!”
Eh. Even if their psychic powers and stratagems turn out to be absolutely outrageous, the new Ynnari are really going to struggle to produce anything that's anywhere near as bad as Ynnari Reapers and Shining Spears have been in the past.
You’re saying this with know knowledge of the relics strats or powers at all. For all we know a combo will make something else just as broken. Plus reapers and Spears has a points increase due to double actions. I expect GW to decrease their points since the reason their points were increased in the first place is no longer a thing.
I mean, yes, I'm saying this because unless any of their relics, strats and psychic powers are absolutely absurd no combination is going to reach the heights of "Every unit in your army can potentially take two bonus actions a round for free". There have been complaints about Ynnari for very good reasons.
that detachment that links two units and lets both proc the new death thingy, if one gets it seems fun. Not saying it is ground breaking with the heavy nerf to it, but it seems to me, someone who knows little about playing eldar, as fun.
So, the New Zealand page for the White Dwarf is up. You can read the general army rules in a picture.
No named characters in Ynnari other than the 3 Ynnari specifics. And no Solitaire
Basically, no more using non Ynnari stratagems and psychic powers on Ynnari units. Also, they replace the <Faction> with Reborn Eldar-Type.
Beasts, Scourges, and Incubi can be included in Ynnari armies without breaking solid detachment rules but don't get Strength From Death, either.
Including the characters in a detachment lets you decide if it is a standard Craftworld, Drukhari, or Harlequins without giving up specific faction bonuses (but no such bonus for the Ynnari character.) Alternatively, you can decide that it is an Ynnari Detachment and all units gain Ynnari keyword (and faction changes mentioned above).
Strength From Death: (effects all Ynnari units in a Battle Forged non Superheavy Auxiliary detachment)
Once any unit dies all Ynnari units get to benefit from "Soulburst actions" which seems to be an Always Strike First (alternate with chargers, etc) for the rest of the turn. If the Ynnari unit had an Always Strike First type rule or charged that turn they can add 1 to their to hit rolls with melee weapons that turn.
No word if there are other things involved with "Soulburst actions" or if that was just flavor text now.
So, it seems that GW finally realised that in a game with limited turns and actions being able to have your entire army act twice as many times as the enemy was a little unbalanced.
What's your opinion on the nerf? Are Ynnari an non-viable army on the scale of Grey Knights now, a mid level army or will the nerfs do nothing and the 5th round of nerfs still not do their job?
Considering Ynnari are easily the strongest overall army in the game right now, they had to change something if they wanted to give them more toys. Who knows though? Might have gone too far.
Considering Ynnari are easily the strongest overall army in the game right now, they had to change something if they wanted to give them more toys. Who knows though? Might have gone too far.
With the exception of imperium Soup with a Castellan or Knights in general you mean?
Also Ynnari in a Good players hand. Very strong.
Ynnari in a bad players hand. Average (CW has a much lower skill curve).
Knight in a Good players hand. Very Strong.
Knights in a noob's hand. Very Strong.
Very little skill curve. Very unfun to watch and play against. Seen many a new player come up against a Knight or Knight army and almost get put off 40k altogether.
They needed a nerf something like using CP to activate Soul BUrst. Many armies have fight again Strategems so to be fair if there is a PP that allows a Squad to shoot and a Strategem that allows a squad to fight again Ynnari may become a well balanced army.
Considering Ynnari are easily the strongest overall army in the game right now, they had to change something if they wanted to give them more toys. Who knows though? Might have gone too far.
With the exception of imperium Soup with a Castellan or Knights in general you mean?
Also Ynnari in a Good players hand. Very strong.
Ynnari in a bad players hand. Average (CW has a much lower skill curve).
Knight in a Good players hand. Very Strong.
Knights in a noob's hand. Very Strong.
Very little skill curve. Very unfun to watch and play against. Seen many a new player come up against a Knight or Knight army and almost get put off 40k altogether.
They needed a nerf something like using CP to activate Soul BUrst. Many armies have fight again Strategems so to be fair if there is a PP that allows a Squad to shoot and a Strategem that allows a squad to fight again Ynnari may become a well balanced army.
Here's hoping.
Perfectly said. Most people have a hate for aeldari and want to see them fall. They are ok with their broken stuff, though
I see Dakka isn’t learning.. we have 5% of the rules exposed. Still psychic powers relics strats everything. I can’t wait until a broken combo is discovered and then people are all “no no nerf again nerf again! The ynnari is unfair oh woe is me and my stupid non aeldari army!”
...or its nerfed. I mean...positing either way is fine. The fact that its already stupid should be a good indicator of which direction its going.
But you have to buy the white dwarf for this update so why even buy it. Most tournaments probably will let players use the Yannari 8th ed stuff they have so if the WD nerf is that bad most players probably just won't use it.
dkoz wrote: But you have to buy the white dwarf for this update so why even buy it. Most tournaments probably will let players use the Yannari 8th ed stuff they have so if the WD nerf is that bad most players probably just won't use it.
I fully expect to see the 'Index' articles from White Dwarf published in Chapter Approved at the end of the year, with or without changes.
dkoz wrote: But you have to buy the white dwarf for this update so why even buy it. Most tournaments probably will let players use the Yannari 8th ed stuff they have so if the WD nerf is that bad most players probably just won't use it.
I fully expect to see the 'Index' articles from White Dwarf published in Chapter Approved at the end of the year, with or without changes.
He is saying until then players can just play the old way
dkoz wrote: But you have to buy the white dwarf for this update so why even buy it. Most tournaments probably will let players use the Yannari 8th ed stuff they have so if the WD nerf is that bad most players probably just won't use it.
I fully expect to see the 'Index' articles from White Dwarf published in Chapter Approved at the end of the year, with or without changes.
I imagine that's likely what will happen but until such time what sane player would use rules that dramatically hurt their army?
BaconCatBug wrote: Well by that logic I'll keep using my un-nerfed commissars and conscripts.
You have to use the latest rules, it's the only way the game can function.
No until chapter approved is released players shouldn't be forced to use a publication you can't get your hands on a month after it comes out. No tournament circuit could function well that way. Also that would mean any new player that wanted to pick up the army 3 months from that WD is going to have to go back to find an old monthly publication just so they can play their new are, that seems foolish.
BaconCatBug wrote: Well by that logic I'll keep using my un-nerfed commissars and conscripts.
You have to use the latest rules, it's the only way the game can function.
No until chapter approved is released players shouldn't be forced to use a publication you can't get your hands on a month after it comes out. No tournament circuit could function well that way. Also that would mean any new player that wanted to pick up the army 3 months from that WD is going to have to go back to find an old monthly publication just so they can play their new are, that seems foolish.
This is a little silly and doesn't reflect reality of the information age. We'll be just fine.
BaconCatBug wrote: Well by that logic I'll keep using my un-nerfed commissars and conscripts.
You have to use the latest rules, it's the only way the game can function.
No until chapter approved is released players shouldn't be forced to use a publication you can't get your hands on a month after it comes out. No tournament circuit could function well that way. Also that would mean any new player that wanted to pick up the army 3 months from that WD is going to have to go back to find an old monthly publication just so they can play their new are, that seems foolish.
Well that is what is happening with assassin rules right now....
dkoz wrote:But you have to buy the white dwarf for this update so why even buy it. Most tournaments probably will let players use the Yannari 8th ed stuff they have so if the WD nerf is that bad most players probably just won't use it.
dkoz wrote:But you have to buy the white dwarf for this update so why even buy it. Most tournaments probably will let players use the Yannari 8th ed stuff they have so if the WD nerf is that bad most players probably just won't use it.
That is absolutely not how any respectable tournament will handle it.
BaconCatBug wrote: Well by that logic I'll keep using my un-nerfed commissars and conscripts.
You have to use the latest rules, it's the only way the game can function.
No until chapter approved is released players shouldn't be forced to use a publication you can't get your hands on a month after it comes out. No tournament circuit could function well that way. Also that would mean any new player that wanted to pick up the army 3 months from that WD is going to have to go back to find an old monthly publication just so they can play their new are, that seems foolish.
BaconCatBug wrote: Well by that logic I'll keep using my un-nerfed commissars and conscripts.
You have to use the latest rules, it's the only way the game can function.
No until chapter approved is released players shouldn't be forced to use a publication you can't get your hands on a month after it comes out. No tournament circuit could function well that way. Also that would mean any new player that wanted to pick up the army 3 months from that WD is going to have to go back to find an old monthly publication just so they can play their new are, that seems foolish.
Ebay is a thing.
A tournament should not allow unofficial copies of rules. So tel me how a player plays the new ynnari if there is no copies for purchase and no illegal copies allowed? And saying “he can’t” isnt an option. Answer? Index. Yay! We found a way around the bad rules until chapter approved. People will hate it but hey, they can go cry
BaconCatBug wrote: Well by that logic I'll keep using my un-nerfed commissars and conscripts.
You have to use the latest rules, it's the only way the game can function.
No until chapter approved is released players shouldn't be forced to use a publication you can't get your hands on a month after it comes out. No tournament circuit could function well that way. Also that would mean any new player that wanted to pick up the army 3 months from that WD is going to have to go back to find an old monthly publication just so they can play their new are, that seems foolish.
Ebay is a thing.
A tournament should not allow unofficial copies of rules. So tel me how a player plays the new ynnari if there is no copies for purchase and no illegal copies allowed? And saying “he can’t” isnt an option. Answer? Index. Yay! We found a way around the bad rules until chapter approved. People will hate it but hey, they can go cry
If you're a tournament player, you have the obligation to get the newest rules. Don't like it, Don't play in tournaments.
BaconCatBug wrote: Well by that logic I'll keep using my un-nerfed commissars and conscripts.
You have to use the latest rules, it's the only way the game can function.
No until chapter approved is released players shouldn't be forced to use a publication you can't get your hands on a month after it comes out. No tournament circuit could function well that way. Also that would mean any new player that wanted to pick up the army 3 months from that WD is going to have to go back to find an old monthly publication just so they can play their new are, that seems foolish.
Ebay is a thing.
A tournament should not allow unofficial copies of rules. So tel me how a player plays the new ynnari if there is no copies for purchase and no illegal copies allowed? And saying “he can’t” isnt an option. Answer? Index. Yay! We found a way around the bad rules until chapter approved. People will hate it but hey, they can go cry
If you're a tournament player, you have the obligation to get the newest rules. Don't like it, Don't play in tournaments.
Oof can you show me the rules for that? I don’t think there is. Honestly you always say your by raw. Raw show me where I can’t play a tourney with unobtainable rules? Oh there isn’t?
Yep, and its why i ordered my WD via my local, b.c if i do want to play i need the rules. I missed out on the assassins, i'm not letting that happen again.
As ironic as it sounds a Tournament player it's not obliged to use the newest iteration of the rules. He is just forced to play abiding to the TO's personal discretion for such tournament.
Tournament A may choose to allow WD introduced rules while tournament B may choose to not use WD rules for Assasins, bolter drill, Crimson fists or Ynnari.
BaconCatBug wrote: If you're a tournament player, you have the obligation to get the newest rules. Don't like it, Don't play in tournaments.
This is not accurate. If you're a tournament player, you're required to use whatever rules the tournament organiser stipulates. While that's generally the most recent version, it's not uncommon for tournaments to not allow rules that have been released just prior to the event, and many tournaments over the years have not allowed White Dwarf and/or Chapter Approved rules. It wouldn't be at all surprising for a tournament to choose to not use rules that aren't actually currently available to everyone.
And, of course, outside of tournaments there is not (and never has been) any requirement to use the latest rules. A codex that functioned yesterday doesn't suddenly become unusable just because a newer publication has been released. Moving on to the newer rules is a common convention, but most certainly not a rule.
insaniak wrote: And, of course, outside of tournaments there is not (and never has been) any requirement to use the latest rules. A codex that functioned yesterday doesn't suddenly become unusable just because a newer publication has been released. Moving on to the newer rules is a common convention, but most certainly not a rule.
The Age of Sigmar FAQ does require you to "... use the most recently published warscroll and errata that you or your opponent have available" and 40K does have this flowchart that tells you what datasheet you should use..
BaconCatBug wrote: Well by that logic I'll keep using my un-nerfed commissars and conscripts.
You have to use the latest rules, it's the only way the game can function.
No until chapter approved is released players shouldn't be forced to use a publication you can't get your hands on a month after it comes out. No tournament circuit could function well that way. Also that would mean any new player that wanted to pick up the army 3 months from that WD is going to have to go back to find an old monthly publication just so they can play their new are, that seems foolish.
Ebay is a thing.
A tournament should not allow unofficial copies of rules. So tel me how a player plays the new ynnari if there is no copies for purchase and no illegal copies allowed? And saying “he can’t” isnt an option. Answer? Index. Yay! We found a way around the bad rules until chapter approved. People will hate it but hey, they can go cry
If you're a tournament player, you have the obligation to get the newest rules. Don't like it, Don't play in tournaments.
No if your a tournament player you have an obligation to abide by the tournament rules & win really. If someone can't get there hands on a magazine that comes out once a month then is gone no that's not right. Till chapter approved comes out Yannarie should be able to use the index. Would you let someone use the Crimson Fist relic from the WD if they didn't have a copy? I doubt it and I don't see many tournaments letting players do that either. So just like you can't use relics or stratagems from a WD you don't own you can't force Yannari players to.
insaniak wrote: And, of course, outside of tournaments there is not (and never has been) any requirement to use the latest rules. A codex that functioned yesterday doesn't suddenly become unusable just because a newer publication has been released. Moving on to the newer rules is a common convention, but most certainly not a rule.
The Age of Sigmar FAQ does require you to "... use the most recently published warscroll and errata that you or your opponent have available" and 40K does have this flowchart that tells you what datasheet you should use..
White dwarfs have never replaced rules, only added new ways to play an existing army or unit
A tournament should not allow unofficial copies of rules. So tel me how a player plays the new ynnari if there is no copies for purchase and no illegal copies allowed? And saying “he can’t” isnt an option. Answer? Index. Yay! We found a way around the bad rules until chapter approved. People will hate it but hey, they can go cry
Hate to break it to ya but xenos index 1 isn't for sale anymore, so there goes your work around.
White dwarfs have never replaced rules, only added new ways to play an existing army or unit
They literally replaced the rules for Assassin's 2 months ago. There was also a blood angles and sister codex replacement in white dwarf years ago. Tons of precedence.
Hell these Ynnari rules actually state they replace index xenos 1, not sure how much clearer it can be.
A tournament should not allow unofficial copies of rules. So tel me how a player plays the new ynnari if there is no copies for purchase and no illegal copies allowed? And saying “he can’t” isnt an option. Answer? Index. Yay! We found a way around the bad rules until chapter approved. People will hate it but hey, they can go cry
Hate to break it to ya but xenos index 1 isn't for sale anymore, so there goes your work around.
White dwarfs have never replaced rules, only added new ways to play an existing army or unit
They literally replaced the rules for Assassin's 2 months ago. There was also a blood angles and sister codex replacement in white dwarf years ago. Tons of precedence.
Hell these Ynnari rules actually state they replace index xenos 1, not sure how much clearer it can be.
If you wanted to play me and you brought assassins and didn’t have the physical white dwarf with you, but instead pictures or anprint out I wouldn’t let you play them. Pay for the rules or don’t have access to them. Those models would probably then somehow end up on the floor, darn wind. Hate to break it to you, show me the rules that state I can think use Xenos 1
A tournament should not allow unofficial copies of rules. So tel me how a player plays the new ynnari if there is no copies for purchase and no illegal copies allowed? And saying “he can’t” isnt an option. Answer? Index. Yay! We found a way around the bad rules until chapter approved. People will hate it but hey, they can go cry
Hate to break it to ya but xenos index 1 isn't for sale anymore, so there goes your work around.
White dwarfs have never replaced rules, only added new ways to play an existing army or unit
They literally replaced the rules for Assassin's 2 months ago. There was also a blood angles and sister codex replacement in white dwarf years ago. Tons of precedence.
Hell these Ynnari rules actually state they replace index xenos 1, not sure how much clearer it can be.
If you wanted to play me and you brought assassins and didn’t have the physical white dwarf with you, but instead pictures or anprint out I wouldn’t let you play them. Pay for the rules or don’t have access to them. Those models would probably then somehow end up on the floor, darn wind. Hate to break it to you, show me the rules that state I can think use Xenos 1
cool, but that's just you being TFG. Nobody can force you to play a friendly game is anybody. However most respectable tournaments are understanding and accepting these print outs of "White Dwarf only" rules after verifying them, so you can argue what you want personally, but it doesn't make Assassins an illegal unit in 40k just because you missed White Dwarf that month lol
A tournament should not allow unofficial copies of rules. So tel me how a player plays the new ynnari if there is no copies for purchase and no illegal copies allowed? And saying “he can’t” isnt an option. Answer? Index. Yay! We found a way around the bad rules until chapter approved. People will hate it but hey, they can go cry
Hate to break it to ya but xenos index 1 isn't for sale anymore, so there goes your work around.
White dwarfs have never replaced rules, only added new ways to play an existing army or unit
They literally replaced the rules for Assassin's 2 months ago. There was also a blood angles and sister codex replacement in white dwarf years ago. Tons of precedence.
Hell these Ynnari rules actually state they replace index xenos 1, not sure how much clearer it can be.
If you wanted to play me and you brought assassins and didn’t have the physical white dwarf with you, but instead pictures or anprint out I wouldn’t let you play them. Pay for the rules or don’t have access to them. Those models would probably then somehow end up on the floor, darn wind. Hate to break it to you, show me the rules that state I can think use Xenos 1
cool, but that's just you being TFG. Nobody can force you to play a friendly game is anybody. However most respectable tournaments are understanding and accepting these print outs of "White Dwarf only" rules after verifying them, so you can argue what you want personally, but it doesn't make Assassins an illegal unit in 40k just because you missed White Dwarf that month lol
Mm I beg to differ. In this case TFG mentality is probably best. Imperium doesn’t need any decent toys anyway, they aren’t aeldari.
That's unbelievably low level toxic attitude and that's from someone who plays Nids. If you were in my local you would have both no friends and no opponents. Play by the damn rules
If I don't come to a wrestling event with my med check and my ID papers, no one is going to care if they saw me in prior events, I have the proper gear. We had a guy disqualified for having broken seals on his running shoes. That is more or less the norm in sports. You can miss a button on the whole gear, and if the judges or other players notice, your out.
SHUPPET wrote: That's unbelievably low level toxic attitude and that's from someone who plays Nids. If you were in my local you would have both no friends and no opponents. Play by the damn rules
SHUPPET wrote: That's unbelievably low level toxic attitude and that's from someone who plays Nids. If you were in my local you would have both no friends and no opponents. Play by the damn rules
Good thing I’m not at your locals
i imagine it's easier to win when you rule out anything you deem too hard to beat.
insaniak wrote: So, how about we stop waving our virtual bits around and get back to the actual topic?
Agreed. I feel like we can’t make a full judgement until we know everything that will be in the white dwarf. There could be a relic, a stratagem, or even a psychic power that has a combo just as strong if not stronger than the current rendition. I fully expect there to be a 2cp unit shooting twice strat. Others have it, ynnari just did it better but should get it again in that way so reapers will still shoot twice although yes limited to cp.
I don`t agree with him, but his words have some logic.
1. In case of assassins and fist bot faction got something extra, not their core rules rewritten. So you can play them with the old rules and no one will have problem with that.
2. This is major update, no one was going to be unhappy if the rules are posted in the BIG FAQ. There is no need to force players to buy white dwarf and run with it at tournaments just for the sake of it. Assassin bringing white dwarf to use their new broken stratagems is fine, but if they bring index i would allow them to play assassins.
3. Ynnari rules are known by the testers at least 2 mounts ago, so GW could have posted them not officially, to allow players more time to prepare for the tournaments they want to participate. I have person who just wasted 3 mounts to test his Ynnari list for ETC event and now all his work is down the drain. Team events planning is not like going to the local tournament, you buy tickets plan prepare your army and 1 month is not big enough period for most players to prepare.
BaconCatBug wrote: Well by that logic I'll keep using my un-nerfed commissars and conscripts.
You have to use the latest rules, it's the only way the game can function.
No until chapter approved is released players shouldn't be forced to use a publication you can't get your hands on a month after it comes out. No tournament circuit could function well that way. Also that would mean any new player that wanted to pick up the army 3 months from that WD is going to have to go back to find an old monthly publication just so they can play their new are, that seems foolish.
It's 2019 mate...
If people coped in the past with Feral Orks, SOB, Kroot, Cursed Founding, DoW, Kislev, Zombie Pirates etc. in years past being published in WD then they'll cope with this.
Marin wrote: I don`t agree with him, but his words have some logic.
1. In case of assassins and fist bot faction got something extra, not their core rules rewritten. So you can play them with the old rules and no one will have problem with that.
2. This is major update, no one was going to be unhappy if the rules are posted in the BIG FAQ. There is no need to force players to buy white dwarf and run with it at tournaments just for the sake of it. Assassin bringing white dwarf to use their new broken stratagems is fine, but if they bring index i would allow them to play assassins.
3. Ynnari rules are known by the testers at least 2 mounts ago, so GW could have posted them not officially, to allow players more time to prepare for the tournaments they want to participate. I have person who just wasted 3 mounts to test his Ynnari list for ETC event and now all his work is down the drain. Team events planning is not like going to the local tournament, you buy tickets plan prepare your army and 1 month is not big enough period for most players to prepare.
Point 1 - not really. Every tournament packet I have seen says use the most recent rules so if you use older source you are breaking the tournament rules. What you do on your kitchen table is of course entirely up to you.
Point 2 - OK I get it you want free stuff. We all like free stuff and we even blind ourselves to the real costs with free stuff (like privacy with free internet services). GW want to be paid for their work so they generally charge for new rules. If you can't afford a WD copy then how can you afford to travel to ETC?
Point 3 - ETC will also be hit by the big FAQ and so anyone planning to use what they perfectly well know is OP (why else would you be planning to use it at ETC) has been running the risk of it being changed and their plans affected. Basically however this is just asking for them to publish them earlier than they publish them - which is paradoxical is it not? Whenever they publish anything it might affect the long term planning of some players for some tournaments.
I see Dakka isn’t learning.. we have 5% of the rules exposed. Still psychic powers relics strats everything. I can’t wait until a broken combo is discovered and then people are all “no no nerf again nerf again! The ynnari is unfair oh woe is me and my stupid non aeldari army!”
I see you haven't learned yet. I have lost time how often it's "but but we haven't seen it all!" and yet it was exactly as bad as it first showed up.
Funny thing that things can be generally figured out in advance. Broken combo's are generally found out before codex is even out with only partial info. Full info gives generally just small tweaks. Not total makeover.
I see Dakka isn’t learning.. we have 5% of the rules exposed. Still psychic powers relics strats everything. I can’t wait until a broken combo is discovered and then people are all “no no nerf again nerf again! The ynnari is unfair oh woe is me and my stupid non aeldari army!”
I see you haven't learned yet. I have lost time how often it's "but but we haven't seen it all!" and yet it was exactly as bad as it first showed up.
Funny thing that things can be generally figured out in advance. Broken combo's are generally found out before codex is even out with only partial info. Full info gives generally just small tweaks. Not total makeover.
I see someone doesn’t listen to MODs. Stick to the topic, nothing more. Now, back ON topic, again, it does seem there may be ways to still utilize the index 1 still. Saying it’s not available for purchase isn’t an actual argument as the white dwarf won’t be purchasable after the month is up.
The part that might bother me here is that if anything Ynnari loses <Masque> etc then all buffs which key off the <Masque> or equivalent will not work in an Ynnari detachment. That makes them absolutely terrible for Harlequins who really need those buffs from their Troupe Masters and Shadowseers; or really any HQ that should be having a nice area buff but which applies to a keyword which has been removed. Hopefully that will be clarified to still work on one of the other pages or will get a FAQ. An Ynnari Troupe Master should still work the same with Ynnari Harlequins and should not just lose the benefit of the area buff rule.
As for the rest, I think it is just a matter of choosing which set of psychic powers and stratagems etc you want for the detachment. Could be nice adding a psyker to a Drukhari detachment but I'm going to guess that at least half the powers will be buffs that only work on Ynnari keyword so keeping them Drukhari loses a lot of the potential benefit of that. I will be happy if Ynnari are not just an auto-take for a handful of OP combos that can be exploited but they do need to have good enough rules of their own to be a viable and interesting choice. Those rules are on the pages we have not seen so the jury is very much out.
Marin wrote: I don`t agree with him, but his words have some logic.
1. In case of assassins and fist bot faction got something extra, not their core rules rewritten. So you can play them with the old rules and no one will have problem with that.
2. This is major update, no one was going to be unhappy if the rules are posted in the BIG FAQ. There is no need to force players to buy white dwarf and run with it at tournaments just for the sake of it. Assassin bringing white dwarf to use their new broken stratagems is fine, but if they bring index i would allow them to play assassins.
3. Ynnari rules are known by the testers at least 2 mounts ago, so GW could have posted them not officially, to allow players more time to prepare for the tournaments they want to participate. I have person who just wasted 3 mounts to test his Ynnari list for ETC event and now all his work is down the drain. Team events planning is not like going to the local tournament, you buy tickets plan prepare your army and 1 month is not big enough period for most players to prepare.
Point 1 - not really. Every tournament packet I have seen says use the most recent rules so if you use older source you are breaking the tournament rules. What you do on your kitchen table is of course entirely up to you.
Point 2 - OK I get it you want free stuff. We all like free stuff and we even blind ourselves to the real costs with free stuff (like privacy with free internet services). GW want to be paid for their work so they generally charge for new rules. If you can't afford a WD copy then how can you afford to travel to ETC?
Point 3 - ETC will also be hit by the big FAQ and so anyone planning to use what they perfectly well know is OP (why else would you be planning to use it at ETC) has been running the risk of it being changed and their plans affected. Basically however this is just asking for them to publish them earlier than they publish them - which is paradoxical is it not? Whenever they publish anything it might affect the long term planning of some players for some tournaments.
1. There will not be problem since the core rules are the some and the opponent will be suprised you are just not using the stratagems.
2. That was not the point, white dwarf got delivered in my country 14 days after release, if there are no leaks we are in the dark. So no WD is terrible space for new rules and its creates mess. The rules are everywhere in rule book, codex, index, faq, CA and now in whitedwarf. People buy the models and its not their job to fix GW messy rules.
3. The idea is the rules are known 2 months before release, there was no reason to keep the public in the dark. Even if they release 80% of the rules(before official release) it will help the planning. Paradoxical or not, the testers know them metta 2 mounts before the others and that give them advantage. After all this is not some digital game where you just need to buy the next patch and all is set.
happy_inquisitor wrote: The part that might bother me here is that if anything Ynnari loses <Masque> etc then all buffs which key off the <Masque> or equivalent will not work in an Ynnari detachment. That makes them absolutely terrible for Harlequins who really need those buffs from their Troupe Masters and Shadowseers; or really any HQ that should be having a nice area buff but which applies to a keyword which has been removed. Hopefully that will be clarified to still work on one of the other pages or will get a FAQ. An Ynnari Troupe Master should still work the same with Ynnari Harlequins and should not just lose the benefit of the area buff rule.
As for the rest, I think it is just a matter of choosing which set of psychic powers and stratagems etc you want for the detachment. Could be nice adding a psyker to a Drukhari detachment but I'm going to guess that at least half the powers will be buffs that only work on Ynnari keyword so keeping them Drukhari loses a lot of the potential benefit of that. I will be happy if Ynnari are not just an auto-take for a handful of OP combos that can be exploited but they do need to have good enough rules of their own to be a viable and interesting choice. Those rules are on the pages we have not seen so the jury is very much out.
Actually I'm expecting the Revenant Discipline, warlord traits and relics to be reworkings of what was found in the Fracture of Biel-Tan book, and most of the psychic powers in there were Witchfires, so I'm expecting multiple ways to dish out mortal wounds. Not everything will be able to translate though (one of the warlord traits allowed you to select your psychic powers instead of roll for them, which is now a game wide option in 8th), so there will be some room to do things diferently.
Marin wrote: I don`t agree with him, but his words have some logic.
1. In case of assassins and fist bot faction got something extra, not their core rules rewritten. So you can play them with the old rules and no one will have problem with that.
2. This is major update, no one was going to be unhappy if the rules are posted in the BIG FAQ. There is no need to force players to buy white dwarf and run with it at tournaments just for the sake of it. Assassin bringing white dwarf to use their new broken stratagems is fine, but if they bring index i would allow them to play assassins.
3. Ynnari rules are known by the testers at least 2 mounts ago, so GW could have posted them not officially, to allow players more time to prepare for the tournaments they want to participate. I have person who just wasted 3 mounts to test his Ynnari list for ETC event and now all his work is down the drain. Team events planning is not like going to the local tournament, you buy tickets plan prepare your army and 1 month is not big enough period for most players to prepare.
Point 1 - not really. Every tournament packet I have seen says use the most recent rules so if you use older source you are breaking the tournament rules. What you do on your kitchen table is of course entirely up to you.
Point 2 - OK I get it you want free stuff. We all like free stuff and we even blind ourselves to the real costs with free stuff (like privacy with free internet services). GW want to be paid for their work so they generally charge for new rules. If you can't afford a WD copy then how can you afford to travel to ETC?
Point 3 - ETC will also be hit by the big FAQ and so anyone planning to use what they perfectly well know is OP (why else would you be planning to use it at ETC) has been running the risk of it being changed and their plans affected. Basically however this is just asking for them to publish them earlier than they publish them - which is paradoxical is it not? Whenever they publish anything it might affect the long term planning of some players for some tournaments.
1. There will not be problem since the core rules are the some and the opponent will be suprised you are just not using the stratagems.
2. That was not the point, white dwarf got delivered in my country 14 days after release, if there are no leaks we are in the dark. So no WD is terrible space for new rules and its creates mess. The rules are everywhere in rule book, codex, index, faq, CA and now in whitedwarf. People buy the models and its not their job to fix GW messy rules.
3. The idea is the rules are known 2 months before release, there was no reason to keep the public in the dark. Even if they release 80% of the rules(before official release) it will help the planning. Paradoxical or not, the testers know them metta 2 mounts before the others and that give them advantage. After all this is not some digital game where you just need to buy the next patch and all is set.
Simply put the leaks have already shown that index is replaced by the WD index, therefore their is no I'll just use the old index cheese rules or I have to use the index rules, GW in WD straight up says you can't no work arounds, no buts. Index Yannari is dead stop trying to support a troll it really makes you look bad.
happy_inquisitor wrote: The part that might bother me here is that if anything Ynnari loses <Masque> etc then all buffs which key off the <Masque> or equivalent will not work in an Ynnari detachment. That makes them absolutely terrible for Harlequins who really need those buffs from their Troupe Masters and Shadowseers; or really any HQ that should be having a nice area buff but which applies to a keyword which has been removed. Hopefully that will be clarified to still work on one of the other pages or will get a FAQ. An Ynnari Troupe Master should still work the same with Ynnari Harlequins and should not just lose the benefit of the area buff rule.
As for the rest, I think it is just a matter of choosing which set of psychic powers and stratagems etc you want for the detachment. Could be nice adding a psyker to a Drukhari detachment but I'm going to guess that at least half the powers will be buffs that only work on Ynnari keyword so keeping them Drukhari loses a lot of the potential benefit of that. I will be happy if Ynnari are not just an auto-take for a handful of OP combos that can be exploited but they do need to have good enough rules of their own to be a viable and interesting choice. Those rules are on the pages we have not seen so the jury is very much out.
Marin wrote: I don`t agree with him, but his words have some logic.
1. In case of assassins and fist bot faction got something extra, not their core rules rewritten. So you can play them with the old rules and no one will have problem with that.
2. This is major update, no one was going to be unhappy if the rules are posted in the BIG FAQ. There is no need to force players to buy white dwarf and run with it at tournaments just for the sake of it. Assassin bringing white dwarf to use their new broken stratagems is fine, but if they bring index i would allow them to play assassins.
3. Ynnari rules are known by the testers at least 2 mounts ago, so GW could have posted them not officially, to allow players more time to prepare for the tournaments they want to participate. I have person who just wasted 3 mounts to test his Ynnari list for ETC event and now all his work is down the drain. Team events planning is not like going to the local tournament, you buy tickets plan prepare your army and 1 month is not big enough period for most players to prepare.
Point 1 - not really. Every tournament packet I have seen says use the most recent rules so if you use older source you are breaking the tournament rules. What you do on your kitchen table is of course entirely up to you.
Point 2 - OK I get it you want free stuff. We all like free stuff and we even blind ourselves to the real costs with free stuff (like privacy with free internet services). GW want to be paid for their work so they generally charge for new rules. If you can't afford a WD copy then how can you afford to travel to ETC?
Point 3 - ETC will also be hit by the big FAQ and so anyone planning to use what they perfectly well know is OP (why else would you be planning to use it at ETC) has been running the risk of it being changed and their plans affected. Basically however this is just asking for them to publish them earlier than they publish them - which is paradoxical is it not? Whenever they publish anything it might affect the long term planning of some players for some tournaments.
1. There will not be problem since the core rules are the some and the opponent will be suprised you are just not using the stratagems.
2. That was not the point, white dwarf got delivered in my country 14 days after release, if there are no leaks we are in the dark. So no WD is terrible space for new rules and its creates mess. The rules are everywhere in rule book, codex, index, faq, CA and now in whitedwarf. People buy the models and its not their job to fix GW messy rules.
3. The idea is the rules are known 2 months before release, there was no reason to keep the public in the dark. Even if they release 80% of the rules(before official release) it will help the planning. Paradoxical or not, the testers know them metta 2 mounts before the others and that give them advantage. After all this is not some digital game where you just need to buy the next patch and all is set.
1. Your wrong here, most of the Assassins had their rules change in the White Dwarf. If you want to play in a tournament with a Culexus that still only effects your opponents psychers and not yours you are likely to find yourself in trouble with the TO.
2. Most tournements have a cut off point for new rules releases of about 1-2 weeks before the start of the tournement, if a rules publication falls into that window then it doesn't get used (and a sensible TO would include a late release like your example of White Dwarf being two weeks late in your country should that bring it within that window, if they don't then thats a problem with the TO) if it's before that then it's fair game. It does not, actually, take months to prepare an army unless you are buidling one up from scratch, at which point yes it will take months but regardless of whether you're playing competitively or casually you are going to be well aware of the fact there may be new rules replacing old ones for your army that could be published in that time frame, you just have to deal with it and get on.
3. This is just you complaining about GW's preferred method of publication for little reason. They do not release rules to suit someones planning for a tournament, instead since we generally have a heads up for roughly when rules changes are coming we can actually plan around them to a degree. It's something I'm currently doing whilst waiting on these Ynnari rules and the FAQ whilst building a list for Heat 1, I know my army well so any changes I will be able to adapt to pretty quickly.
Marin wrote: I don`t agree with him, but his words have some logic.
1. In case of assassins and fist bot faction got something extra, not their core rules rewritten. So you can play them with the old rules and no one will have problem with that.
2. This is major update, no one was going to be unhappy if the rules are posted in the BIG FAQ. There is no need to force players to buy white dwarf and run with it at tournaments just for the sake of it. Assassin bringing white dwarf to use their new broken stratagems is fine, but if they bring index i would allow them to play assassins.
3. Ynnari rules are known by the testers at least 2 mounts ago, so GW could have posted them not officially, to allow players more time to prepare for the tournaments they want to participate. I have person who just wasted 3 mounts to test his Ynnari list for ETC event and now all his work is down the drain. Team events planning is not like going to the local tournament, you buy tickets plan prepare your army and 1 month is not big enough period for most players to prepare.
Point 1 - not really. Every tournament packet I have seen says use the most recent rules so if you use older source you are breaking the tournament rules. What you do on your kitchen table is of course entirely up to you.
Point 2 - OK I get it you want free stuff. We all like free stuff and we even blind ourselves to the real costs with free stuff (like privacy with free internet services). GW want to be paid for their work so they generally charge for new rules. If you can't afford a WD copy then how can you afford to travel to ETC?
Point 3 - ETC will also be hit by the big FAQ and so anyone planning to use what they perfectly well know is OP (why else would you be planning to use it at ETC) has been running the risk of it being changed and their plans affected. Basically however this is just asking for them to publish them earlier than they publish them - which is paradoxical is it not? Whenever they publish anything it might affect the long term planning of some players for some tournaments.
1. There will not be problem since the core rules are the some and the opponent will be suprised you are just not using the stratagems.
2. That was not the point, white dwarf got delivered in my country 14 days after release, if there are no leaks we are in the dark. So no WD is terrible space for new rules and its creates mess. The rules are everywhere in rule book, codex, index, faq, CA and now in whitedwarf. People buy the models and its not their job to fix GW messy rules.
3. The idea is the rules are known 2 months before release, there was no reason to keep the public in the dark. Even if they release 80% of the rules(before official release) it will help the planning. Paradoxical or not, the testers know them metta 2 mounts before the others and that give them advantage. After all this is not some digital game where you just need to buy the next patch and all is set.
1. Your wrong here, most of the Assassins had their rules change in the White Dwarf. If you want to play in a tournament with a Culexus that still only effects your opponents psychers and not yours you are likely to find yourself in trouble with the TO.
2. Most tournements have a cut off point for new rules releases of about 1-2 weeks before the start of the tournement, if a rules publication falls into that window then it doesn't get used (and a sensible TO would include a late release like your example of White Dwarf being two weeks late in your country should that bring it within that window, if they don't then thats a problem with the TO) if it's before that then it's fair game. It does not, actually, take months to prepare an army unless you are buidling one up from scratch, at which point yes it will take months but regardless of whether you're playing competitively or casually you are going to be well aware of the fact there may be new rules replacing old ones for your army that could be published in that time frame, you just have to deal with it and get on.
3. This is just you complaining about GW's preferred method of publication for little reason. They do not release rules to suit someones planning for a tournament, instead since we generally have a heads up for roughly when rules changes are coming we can actually plan around them to a degree. It's something I'm currently doing whilst waiting on these Ynnari rules and the FAQ whilst building a list for Heat 1, I know my army well so any changes I will be able to adapt to pretty quickly.
This isn't the same as a rule book that is published continually & can be bought at any time. You're talking about a magazine that once it's gone it's gone. If TOs won't allow players to use rules, relics, &/or stratagems from WD you don't physically own then they shouldn't reverse that ruling just because people dislike Yannari & want to punish people that play them.
Are people arguing against a ghost or are there actual examples of Tournaments requiring people to have the physical White Dwarf to use rule updates within it?
I just need to say that I really really do not like having rules in White Dwarf. They are all limited runs now without getting back orders that I'm aware of, so you either buy each issue, have a subscription or what? Say you play Ynnari and you miss this issue of WD. What do you do? You can't legally play the army as you don't have the most up to date rules?
These had better be consolidated sometime as being expected to purchase a monthly magazine for updates that aren't available anywhere else is a load of gak.
Wayniac wrote: I just need to say that I really really do not like having rules in White Dwarf. They are all limited runs now without getting back orders that I'm aware of, so you either buy each issue, have a subscription or what? Say you play Ynnari and you miss this issue of WD. What do you do? You can't legally play the army as you don't have the most up to date rules?
These had better be consolidated sometime as being expected to purchase a monthly magazine for updates that aren't available anywhere else is a load of gak.
I'm hoping they'll wind up getting republished in Chapter Approved eventually.
Also; having seen the full new rules now, I kind of like the new Ynnari. They've got a real melee focus and there's absolutely nothing as crazy in there as the old soulburst, but I think there are some interesting things to play around with.
In regards to the nerf. They are doing it absolutely right. Though - I think incubi/scourge/ect they should ether get SFD OR retain PFP.
The first most obvious abuse from over a year ago was craft world keywords for stratagems. Yeah...no. They should have gained <craftworld: Ynnari> Then 80% of the shenanigans should go away. However now they get reborn eldar or whatever and they get their own stratagems. That is fine. It should work great if they have good stratagems.
SFD is basically an army trait now. We don't really know what it does (conditional +1 to hit in the fight phase is not going to be worth it) I'd even be okay with ynnari getting activations based on unit death but 1 is too easy...make them save up 4 soul counters and then they can fire again or move again - that is a decent army trait that can change games....BUT a lot of times it wont do much - esp if the unit you wanted to shoot again with was dead.
Heck Ynnari could still be OP - we don't know what their stratagems are. Or really what SFD does.
What is up with the incubi having a 2 CP stratagem to gain SFD...I see they just want incubi to be unusable in any kind of army. Everything seems to rely on +1 to hits and +1 to attack and bringing a varried force. IDK...seems bad. Yncarne still 337 and not that great.
Assuming these are real, and I see no reason why they wouldn't be, then Soulburst as we knew it is completely gone. And that's a good thing.
Nothing reads strong enough to make Ynnari worth it tho over just running a separate Craftworld and DE detachments.
And "Soulburst actions" just reads really weird for some reason Oo
Assuming these are real, and I see no reason why they wouldn't be, then Soulburst as we knew it is completely gone. And that's a good thing.
Nothing reads strong enough to make Ynnari worth it tho over just running a separate Craftworld and DE detachments.
And "Soulburst actions" just reads really weird for some reason Oo
Yeah - This is pretty bad though. They didn't even get a stratagem to shoot twice as far as I can see. Lots of armies already have that. They lost doom and forwarding. They get a 5++ invo bubble in exchange. Really not worth. Good news is we can go back to aloitoc Spamming DR and flyers and DE can show their true worth with the obvious double actions faction is gone.
I like strength from death quite a lot actually. It's good without being broken, which brings it in line with the majority of faction traits. Now I wonder how often we will see Ynnari on the table now that their gimmick has gone
happy_inquisitor wrote: The part that might bother me here is that if anything Ynnari loses <Masque> etc then all buffs which key off the <Masque> or equivalent will not work in an Ynnari detachment. That makes them absolutely terrible for Harlequins who really need those buffs from their Troupe Masters and Shadowseers; or really any HQ that should be having a nice area buff but which applies to a keyword which has been removed. Hopefully that will be clarified to still work on one of the other pages or will get a FAQ. An Ynnari Troupe Master should still work the same with Ynnari Harlequins and should not just lose the benefit of the area buff rule.
As for the rest, I think it is just a matter of choosing which set of psychic powers and stratagems etc you want for the detachment. Could be nice adding a psyker to a Drukhari detachment but I'm going to guess that at least half the powers will be buffs that only work on Ynnari keyword so keeping them Drukhari loses a lot of the potential benefit of that. I will be happy if Ynnari are not just an auto-take for a handful of OP combos that can be exploited but they do need to have good enough rules of their own to be a viable and interesting choice. Those rules are on the pages we have not seen so the jury is very much out.
Probably not, what you see is what you get.
Having re-read it I think it is OK. If you replace every instance of <Masque> then that includes the instance in the special rule - so an Ynnari Troupe Master buffs Ynnari Troupes as they should.
As for the rules overall now we have full leaks. Not awesome and while fixing the OP stuff I think they could have looked harder at the stuff which was a bit questionable - like the points cost of the Yncarne. An interesting choice for CC elves but maybe a bit questionable for competitive use.
Cynista wrote: I like strength from death quite a lot actually. It's good without being broken, which brings it in line with the majority of faction traits. Now I wonder how often we will see Ynnari on the table now that their gimmick has gone
At this point the only unit I think gains any benefit from it are Harlequins. Wyches are absolutely worse for swapping out their Cult ability for SfD, Kabal doesn't want to be in combat, Banshees and Scorpions still suck and Wraithblades loose the doubling of attacks they can get from Iyanden's relic or the bonuses from the Vigilus detachment.
As it stands, I think Ynnari might be the worst way to run any kind of Aeldari force.
I will look at how this might play out but harlequins losing some of their excellent relics would be a tough one. Definitely going to take my time to digest this one.
wuestenfux wrote: Well, it will be interesting to see how the psychic power related to SfD (basically shooting of the DRs for a 2nd time) will be re-implemented if so.
Which makes more sense actually.....I do like the idea of having a pseudo apothecary in the army. Plus a nice regen CP strat which Craftworlds have never got.
And the Corag hai relic might be the sole (no pun intended) reason that a Solitaire is not allowed in a Ynnari force.
wuestenfux wrote: Well, it will be interesting to see how the psychic power related to SfD (basically shooting of the DRs for a 2nd time) will be re-implemented if so.
Word of the Phoenix, which used to trigger SfD, now heals wounds or returns a model.
This is so sad if you ask me.
Hitting first in cc is nice but my Eldar army prefers to keep the enemy at arm's length flying circles around him, shooting him constantly and finally going for his throat.
bullyboy wrote: Which makes more sense actually.....I do like the idea of having a pseudo apothecary in the army. Plus a nice regen CP strat which Craftworlds have never got.
And the Corag hai relic might be the sole (no pun intended) reason that a Solitaire is not allowed in a Ynnari force.
It would be possible to make a tanky Ynnari character with Lord of Rebirth, the Lost Shroud, the Back from the Brink stratagem, and with Word of the Phoenix cast upon it. Regenerate 1 wound per turn, 5+++, all damage taken halved, and healing whatever gets through all that with Word of the Phoenix and Back from the Brink.
wuestenfux wrote: Well, it will be interesting to see how the psychic power related to SfD (basically shooting of the DRs for a 2nd time) will be re-implemented if so.
Word of the Phoenix, which used to trigger SfD, now heals wounds or returns a model.
This is so sad if you ask me.
Hitting first in cc is nice but my Eldar army prefers to keep the enemy at arm's length flying circles around him, shooting him constantly and finally going for his throat.
wuestenfux wrote: Well, it will be interesting to see how the psychic power related to SfD (basically shooting of the DRs for a 2nd time) will be re-implemented if so.
Word of the Phoenix, which used to trigger SfD, now heals wounds or returns a model.
This is so sad if you ask me.
Hitting first in cc is nice but my Eldar army prefers to keep the enemy at arm's length flying circles around him, shooting him constantly and finally going for his throat.
Then play a craftworld?
Recently, exclusively CW since Ynnari was too annoying in friendly games.
If I'm reading it correctly, Succubi and Archons replace all instances of their relevant keywords in their datasheet with the same <Reborn Drukhari> keyword. Therefore my question is, can Ynnari Archons can buff Ynnari Wyches and vis versa?
wuestenfux wrote: Well, it will be interesting to see how the psychic power related to SfD (basically shooting of the DRs for a 2nd time) will be re-implemented if so.
Word of the Phoenix, which used to trigger SfD, now heals wounds or returns a model.
This is so sad if you ask me.
Hitting first in cc is nice but my Eldar army prefers to keep the enemy at arm's length flying circles around him, shooting him constantly and finally going for his throat.
Then play a craftworld?
Ah come on, you had to know people were gonna be a little upset when they spent hard earned money to play an army the way it was made, just for it to not get some tweaks but completely changed in the way it works. All I can say is this.. dark reapers and shining Spears both respectively got points increases due to the word of the Phoenix and strength from death. Now that those are gone, what is everyone’s thoughts on the fact that in this FAQ they should drop in price
Phaeron Gukk wrote: If I'm reading it correctly, Succubi and Archons replace all instances of their relevant keywords in their datasheet with the same <Reborn Drukhari> keyword. Therefore my question is, can Ynnari Archons can buff Ynnari Wyches and vis versa?
It looks like it, as both keywords are replaced with Reborn Drukhari keyword
No, dark reapers are still undercosted even for a base Eldar list. They got a points increase because they have 55 pts of rules on a sub 40 point model.
Martel732 wrote: No, dark reapers are still undercosted even for a base Eldar list. They got a points increase because they have 55 pts of rules on a sub 40 point model.
You know you are not right. 1 unit of dr is like 2 tanks that reroll their main guns hit,. reroll 1`s and are T8 12 wound models.
Phaeron Gukk wrote: If I'm reading it correctly, Succubi and Archons replace all instances of their relevant keywords in their datasheet with the same <Reborn Drukhari> keyword. Therefore my question is, can Ynnari Archons can buff Ynnari Wyches and vis versa?
It looks like it, as both keywords are replaced with Reborn Drukhari keyword
yea wucches hitting on 2 and rerolling 1 looks interesting
I stand by my analysis. They have a lot of crazy advantages. They are undercosted significantly. If your rebuttal is the command Russ, you basically just conceded.
Martel732 wrote: No, dark reapers are still undercosted even for a base Eldar list. They got a points increase because they have 55 pts of rules on a sub 40 point model.
Oof how wrong you are. I fully expect a points drop. Blood angels I think should raise a few ppm as a whole though from what I’ve read about their OP combos
Martel732 wrote: No, dark reapers are still undercosted even for a base Eldar list. They got a points increase because they have 55 pts of rules on a sub 40 point model.
Are the eldar trolls already trying to claim that they need points reductions on every unit as they no longer have multiple free activations, but still have the most untargetable army lists with -2 and charictors.
But wow is the ekdar player that needs units more broken than a guardsmen to have a chance of winning.
Martel732 wrote: I stand by my analysis. They have a lot of crazy advantages. They are undercosted significantly. If your rebuttal is the command Russ, you basically just conceded.
I don`t see any analysis, it look to me you are just spreading raw fanatical believe without any arguments.
Martel732 wrote: I stand by my analysis. They have a lot of crazy advantages. They are undercosted significantly. If your rebuttal is the command Russ, you basically just conceded.
I don`t see any analysis, it look to me you are just spreading raw fanatical believe without any arguments.
Dark Reapers cost same as Long Fangs with ML, but perform in CW army massively better. Making them cheaper would simply be not fair, especially while Tempest Launcher and Exarches with a free re-roll 1's exist. Spears could maybe use a drop, but not by much, if at all.
Scorpions, Banshees, Hawks and Spiders could use a buff.
But I don't think GW changed prices to fit Ynnari, I think they changed them to fall in line with other options in CW Codex.
Martel732 wrote: I stand by my analysis. They have a lot of crazy advantages. They are undercosted significantly. If your rebuttal is the command Russ, you basically just conceded.
I don`t see any analysis, it look to me you are just spreading raw fanatical believe without any arguments.
Martel732 wrote: I stand by my analysis. They have a lot of crazy advantages. They are undercosted significantly. If your rebuttal is the command Russ, you basically just conceded.
I don`t see any analysis, it look to me you are just spreading raw fanatical believe without any arguments.
There's a reason for that.
Eldar hate from previous editions ?
In fairness to Martel I've seen him express hate for most things based on previous editions.
slave.entity wrote: Competitively this is almost certainly the biggest nerf in 8th. Ynnari just went from top tables competitive to trash tier overnight.
Agreed. Depending on FAQ we will see where the other 3 aeldari forces stand
Martel732 wrote: I stand by my analysis. They have a lot of crazy advantages. They are undercosted significantly. If your rebuttal is the command Russ, you basically just conceded.
I don`t see any analysis, it look to me you are just spreading raw fanatical believe without any arguments.
There's a reason for that.
Eldar hate from previous editions ?
It's been mathed out everyway that people could propose to justify their original points costings and time and time again it simple came down to they outperformed every comparable unit.
If you want to go math it all out in a seperate thread go ahead, but just screaming that the world has ended because your not getting 12 turns of sgooting out of Dark Reapers and 12 CC rounds out of Shining Spears doesn't automatically mean that they should be half their points as some are claiming.
Martel732 wrote: I stand by my analysis. They have a lot of crazy advantages. They are undercosted significantly. If your rebuttal is the command Russ, you basically just conceded.
I don`t see any analysis, it look to me you are just spreading raw fanatical believe without any arguments.
There's a reason for that.
Eldar hate from previous editions ?
It's been mathed out everyway that people could propose to justify their original points costings and time and time again it simple came down to they outperformed every comparable unit.
If you want to go math it all out in a seperate thread go ahead, but just screaming that the world has ended because your not getting 12 turns of sgooting out of Dark Reapers and 12 CC rounds out of Shining Spears doesn't automatically mean that they should be half their points as some are claiming.
You don’t watch frontline gaming podcasts do you? They playtest for GW rulesets and give feedback. In a more recent podcast they specifically stated they hate when people think similar units need similar cost. Some armies will be better and cheaper at things than others. Others make armies with same units different look across the board. They need a price drop now. I don’t care what your math hammer says.
Martel732 wrote: Compare a reaper to missile launcher dev. Now justify their cost.
They won't do it as they aren't interested in actually having a productive discussion about balanced rules they are either just out to troll or they're so bad they just want undercosted units with special rules and strategums for free.
They aren't truly interested in having their army balanced they just wanted GW to make Yannari even more broken.
I'm sure one poster would think eldar having a 90% win rate in a tournament would be fair and balanced.
It's a shame though as I'm sure a number of people who picked up Yannari for the fluff and build casual lists and had casual games are going to be feeling the pain most while the trolls and tournament players just move on to another flavour of Eldar soup.
Martel732 wrote: I stand by my analysis. They have a lot of crazy advantages. They are undercosted significantly. If your rebuttal is the command Russ, you basically just conceded.
I don`t see any analysis, it look to me you are just spreading raw fanatical believe without any arguments.
There's a reason for that.
Eldar hate from previous editions ?
It's been mathed out everyway that people could propose to justify their original points costings and time and time again it simple came down to they outperformed every comparable unit.
If you want to go math it all out in a seperate thread go ahead, but just screaming that the world has ended because your not getting 12 turns of sgooting out of Dark Reapers and 12 CC rounds out of Shining Spears doesn't automatically mean that they should be half their points as some are claiming.
You don’t watch frontline gaming podcasts do you? They playtest for GW rulesets and give feedback. In a more recent podcast they specifically stated they hate when people think similar units need similar cost. Some armies will be better and cheaper at things than others. Others make armies with same units different look across the board. They need a price drop now. I don’t care what your math hammer says.
I would love to hear your justification for why Craftworld Eldar need cheap Reapers to function as an army.
Martel732 wrote: Similar units should have a similar cost. Thats the whole point of cost. I hate it when frontline denies math.
Points are a measure of value conferred on the table.
Sorry if you don’t agree with the people who help establish points costs and rules? Take over their job I guess if you would be so good at it. I’m sure GW would hire you.
Martel732 wrote: Similar units should have a similar cost. Thats the whole point of cost. I hate it when frontline denies math.
Points are a measure of value conferred on the table.
Sorry if you don’t agree with the people who help establish points costs and rules? Take over their job I guess if you would be so good at it. I’m sure GW would hire you.
I am kinda torn, on one side i can agree that differing armies can have differing cost for units that are equalish, on the other hand Frontline seems to belive that gaps like the Cultist-Guardsmen are perfectly fine now.
You don’t watch frontline gaming podcasts do you? They playtest for GW rulesets and give feedback. In a more recent podcast they specifically stated they hate when people think similar units need similar cost. Some armies will be better and cheaper at things than others. Others make armies with same units different look across the board. They need a price drop now. I don’t care what your math hammer says.
Yeah right, GK players have been saying both things. They compared their stuff to other armies. No response. Then showed how internaly GK codex is boosted. And GW drops the point cost... on the GM NDK, the only unit GK player if they could they would spam. I don't know who the frontline gaming people are, but they are wrong if they think talking anything to GW can change, just because you tell stuff this or that way. They change stuff only in two ways. They change them the way they did dark reapers, where no amount of nerfs could make them a bad unit no one would ever take. Or they kill a unit, army or faction, with no recovery.
You don’t watch frontline gaming podcasts do you? They playtest for GW rulesets and give feedback. In a more recent podcast they specifically stated they hate when people think similar units need similar cost. Some armies will be better and cheaper at things than others. Others make armies with same units different look across the board. They need a price drop now. I don’t care what your math hammer says.
Yeah right, GK players have been saying both things. They compared their stuff to other armies. No response. Then showed how internaly GK codex is boosted. And GW drops the point cost... on the GM NDK, the only unit GK player if they could they would spam. I don't know who the frontline gaming people are, but they are wrong if they think talking anything to GW can change, just because you tell stuff this or that way. They change stuff only in two ways. They change them the way they did dark reapers, where no amount of nerfs could make them a bad unit no one would ever take. Or they kill a unit, army or faction, with no recovery.
Frontline gaming works for GW in rules testing and assisting with appropriate points costings
Ynnari used to have a lot more identity when the entire theme focused on running mixed detachments of CWE, DE, and Harlequins. But the Battle Brothers rule killed that.
And, if I'm not mistaken, we can already soup CWE/DE/Harlequins in separate detachments without having to run Ynnari. So at this point, the only thing the Ynnari faction does for your eldar soup list is tack on a weak Ynnari character and some uninspired CC-oriented strats/relics/traits. Ynnari will now be a niche, low-tier faction for people that want to play... close-combat Eldar... without covens... lol...
You don’t watch frontline gaming podcasts do you? They playtest for GW rulesets and give feedback. In a more recent podcast they specifically stated they hate when people think similar units need similar cost. Some armies will be better and cheaper at things than others. Others make armies with same units different look across the board. They need a price drop now. I don’t care what your math hammer says.
Yeah right, GK players have been saying both things. They compared their stuff to other armies. No response. Then showed how internaly GK codex is boosted. And GW drops the point cost... on the GM NDK, the only unit GK player if they could they would spam. I don't know who the frontline gaming people are, but they are wrong if they think talking anything to GW can change, just because you tell stuff this or that way. They change stuff only in two ways. They change them the way they did dark reapers, where no amount of nerfs could make them a bad unit no one would ever take. Or they kill a unit, army or faction, with no recovery.
Frontline gaming works for GW in rules testing and assisting withappropriate points costings
Replace appropriate with questionable.
5 pts model that is now about 2x as bad as it's equivalent 4 ppm model? 4ppm model that is worse then conscripts? Terrible balance of nearly all FW models?
Yeah Frontline is doing a great job, so great infact that it get absolutely genious.
Martel732 wrote: Compare a reaper to missile launcher dev. Now justify their cost.
They won't do it as they aren't interested in actually having a productive discussion about balanced rules they either just are out to troll or they're so bad they just want undercosted units with special rules and strategums for free.
They aren't truly interested in having their army balanced they just wanted GW to make Yannari even more broken.
I'm sure one poster would thing eldar having a 90% win rate in a tournament would be fair and balanced.
It's a shame though as I'm sure a number of people who picked up Yannari for the fluff and build casual lists and had casual games are going to be feeling the pain most while the trolls and tournament players just move on to another flavour of Eldar soup.
You are right, Ynnari won LVO, Adepticcon and every major tournament in the last few mounts or no they did not.
Go into BCP and you will see that Ynnari are not winning anything, not the some thing can be sad about imp and chaos soup.
Frontline gaming works for GW in rules testing and assisting with appropriate points costings
Yes, and often get it wrong, due to the differences in how ITC plays to vanilla 40K.
Their fear of Fire-and-Fade-Reapers feels exaggerated, if you play on normal GW terrain with normal GW terrain rules in a mission set where, say, Maelstrom randomizes what objectives you need and you cannot simply get hold something/hold more from the no-brainers most conveniently located where you want to be anyhow, nor do I think a 2 CP Fire-&-Fade was warranted.
Inversely, I think a lot of the recent Tau and AdMech point drops might make sense in a world of "bottom-level-blocks-LOS"-houserules, but are actually pretty bad. There's a reason Mani Cheema has been sweeping tournament after tournament in the UK with his Broadside spam.
First its a massive, massive nerf. Its basically saying the Ynnari mechanic was broken, and now its dead.
Not entirely surprising - since GW have always "imagined" Ynnari as close-combat focused Eldar soup, rather than just "use double shooting/shuffling reapers/shining spears (or massed scat-bikes in 7th) lollol".
But the most peculiar choice has to be "incubi can't get strength from death, but don't worry, use a stratagem and they can!". It seems like a weird tax to use a unit which is kind of crap anyway. If they don't get it for fluff reasons (....), why have a stratagem there completely undercutting that fluff reason?
Also poor Scourge. Clearly the future sub faction we deserve.
Finally the Yncarne and Visarch also continue to be 30% overcosted for... reasons.
All in all if this was a placeholder pushed out 18~ months ago as a "woops, Ynnari were an end of edition joke and are obviously broken" placeholder it would make sense. As a "the game is more or less complete, we are moving in 8.5 edition now" it seems low effort.
Its not just the rules. Its the idea that they are smart enough to balance entire armies, not just the units. Undercosted units will be spammed, overcosted underused.
Tyel wrote: First its a massive, massive nerf. Its basically saying the Ynnari mechanic was broken, and now its dead.
Not only did they remove all double action abilities for the Ynnari keyword, but making your DE/Harlequins Ynnari also forfeit their existing double move/double fight strats.
Ynnari are being punished for their transgressions. Much like Wraithknights.
vipoid wrote: What I really don't understand is why every Ynnari detachment has to contain one of the special characters just to be Ynnari.
IMO this kills the army far more than the change to Soulburst.
Also from my reading you also can't do mixed detachments. Since the SCs can only be taken in Craftworld, Harleqiun, and drukhari detachments, and the codexs define those as detachments that only include craftworld, harlequin or drukhari units respectfully.
Martel732 wrote: Compare a reaper to missile launcher dev. Now justify their cost.
They won't do it as they aren't interested in actually having a productive discussion about balanced rules they either just are out to troll or they're so bad they just want undercosted units with special rules and strategums for free.
They aren't truly interested in having their army balanced they just wanted GW to make Yannari even more broken.
I'm sure one poster would thing eldar having a 90% win rate in a tournament would be fair and balanced.
It's a shame though as I'm sure a number of people who picked up Yannari for the fluff and build casual lists and had casual games are going to be feeling the pain most while the trolls and tournament players just move on to another flavour of Eldar soup.
You are right, Ynnari won LVO, Adepticcon and every major tournament in the last few mounts or no they did not.
Go into BCP and you will see that Ynnari are not winning anything, not the some thing can be sad about imp and chaos soup.
Funny you should call out LVO as thr army with highest percentage of games won per games played was Ynnari not imperial soup, not choas soup.
Yes Soup also needs nerfed but tournament lists abusing double activations are responsible for the way GW have responded.
So it's once again the fluff players taking it for the sins of the power gamers
To be fair to them they have tried to gently nudge them back into line a number of tines before.
It's not surprising that they took the gloves off and went to town.
If they didn't they were going to get savaged.
Does not change the fact that double activations in other armies are also bad. They didn't fix that or brought them in line.
Well so far we don't know about that since the BIG FAQ isn't out yet.
It would however be nicer if they actually for once would've not gone into panick mode and started the whole pendulum balancing issue again, but considering what i heard about frontline and their philosophy it is no wonder there seems to be a gap between the balance.
vipoid wrote: What I really don't understand is why every Ynnari detachment has to contain one of the special characters just to be Ynnari.
IMO this kills the army far more than the change to Soulburst.
Also from my reading you also can't do mixed detachments. Since the SCs can only be taken in Craftworld, Harleqiun, and drukhari detachments, and the codexs define those as detachments that only include craftworld, harlequin or drukhari units respectfully.
Exactly. So if you want any sort of mix of DE, Eldar and Harlequins (which is the whole point of Ynnari), then you have to use *at least* 2 of the special characters.
slave.entity wrote: Yvraine's looking pretty hilariously bad now compared to a regular old farseer.
All three of the special characters seem very overpriced to me still. What's the Visarch bringing to the table that's worth 120 points?
Well, he's basically an Archon with:
- A better weapon
- A better armour save
- A better invulnerable save (I'll take a 4++ over a non-rerollable 2++ that's lost the first time it's failed)
- The ability to heal every time an Eldar model is slain nearby
So he's inevitably going to cost more than an Archon. And since the Archon is horribly overpriced, it stands to reason that the Visarch will also end up being horribly overpriced, since he uses the Archon as a benchmark.
I am glad I never went much down the Ynnari route considering how much Ynnari were hit. On the plus side this means Shining Spears and Dark Reapers probably won't see more nerfs just because of Ynnari. That is a win in my book.
I see people often complain that GW overcompensates when they nerf and find it strange that GW would hit something so hard. Then you see players calling for the same overcompensation and you realize it is just human nature.
'Close combat eldar' is already a niche, rarely-played archetype that is pretty much limited to garagehammer, and yet you're still better off running that style of list without crippling yourself with Ynnari rules. Why would anyone go Ynnari when instead you could go hard with harlequins/solitaires or wyches/covens?
Ynnari placed consistently at top tables throughout the entirety of 8th edition. Now Ynnari is not even worth considering in a competitive game. If there was ever a legit, shining example of what constitutes a 'big nerf', then this is it.
Martel isn't saying they should be more he's rejecting the claims that they need "massive points reductions" as being demanded by some eldar trolls.
Martel actually wanted to nerf Dark Reapers into the dustbin of history. I shall quote him:
Martel732 wrote: No, dark reapers are still undercosted even for a base Eldar list. They got a points increase because they have 55 pts of rules on a sub 40 point model.
I would say Dark Reapers are currently in a sweet spot where they can work. They were undercosted at codex release, but after point increases in CA they are now at a price where you know you're committing when you take them, but not overcommitting.
Personally I think Shining Spears need a revisit as the Ynnari doubling was what was making them crazy good.
The marine hits on 4 if he moves, Reaper still hitting on 3.
Add a -1 to hit and the marine is jow on 5+, while the reaper is still 3+.
Martel isn't saying they should be more he's rejecting the claims that they need "massive points reductions" as being demanded by some eldar trolls.
This is kind of a silly scenario further stacked to make it look bad. Why would I ever realistically move my dev with 48" range?
I do agree there shouldn't be any reductions. Reapers and spears were NOT priced like they were Ynnari, which is why they were so good when they were.
Why would you move devs,
1 LOS blocking terrain
2 deploying from transports (reducing drop counts)
3 trying to keep them in aura bubbles as GW decieded marines should deathball and only deathball.
I think a number of the worst eldar units could probably use some help but spears and reapers definataly don't need points cuts.
Not Online!!! 774684 10428748 wrote:
Replace appropriate with questionable.
5 pts model that is now about 2x as bad as it's equivalent 4 ppm model?
4ppm model that is worse then conscripts?
Terrible balance of nearly all FW models?
Yeah Frontline is doing a great job, so great infact that it get absolutely genious.
Maybe they did remake all the point costs then, but they are remade for the whole game and for all factions. But because GW realseses armies over 2-3 years, and is prone to changes in the middle of it all, the stuff can get warped. I guess I do understand more of how playtesting works.
I think a number of the worst eldar units could probably use some help but spears and reapers definataly don't need points cuts.
I agree on the Reapers, but Shining Spears are in a different spot. They were only good because of the force multiplier that was Ynnari. In normal Craftworld lists they are not the must take unit some people appear to be implying. Hell, I don't see many mono-Craftworld lists use them much these days and even I've stopped using them as I found them lacking and often a liability. I'd rather take Scatterbikes in mono-detachments as they'll be able to keep a distance, fire, and claim unguarded points whereas the Shining Spears require Farseer, Warlock, and stratagem support to actually get their full potential.
Martel732 wrote: Compare a reaper to missile launcher dev. Now justify their cost.
Devastator - 13 points
Reaper - 15 points
Missile Launcher - 20 points
Reaper ML - 22 points
I'm not seeing what you're driving at here. If reapers shoot at something with no negative to hit they have no advantage and they're less tough.
If you want to consider the nifty second firing mode that's fine, but it's of a different role than the SMML.
There isn't any way a reaper should cost considerably more than they do now.
The marine hits on 4 if he moves, Reaper still hitting on 3.
Add a -1 to hit and the marine is now on 5+, while the reaper is still 3+.
Martel isn't saying they should be more he's rejecting the claims that they need "massive points reductions" as being demanded by some eldar trolls.
They're fine as is. They have 55 pts of rules but there IS an upper limit on how valuable a 1W model can be. Reapers are at that limit for sure. Maybe they still are undercosted from a sum of parts view, but 1W is a big problem.
I think a number of the worst eldar units could probably use some help but spears and reapers definataly don't need points cuts.
I agree on the Reapers, but Shining Spears are in a different spot. They were only good because of the force multiplier that was Ynnari. In normal Craftworld lists they are not the must take unit some people appear to be implying. Hell, I don't see many mono-Craftworld lists use them much these days and even I've stopped using them as I found them lacking and often a liability. I'd rather take Scatterbikes in mono-detachments as they'll be able to keep a distance, fire, and claim unguarded points whereas the Shining Spears require Farseer, Warlock, and stratagem support to actually get their full potential.
I’ll drop the reaper argument but yea shining spears need to be back to 29ppm to be even somewhat useful. I fully agree I take 12 scatbikes each time over them
I think a number of the worst eldar units could probably use some help but spears and reapers definataly don't need points cuts.
I agree on the Reapers, but Shining Spears are in a different spot. They were only good because of the force multiplier that was Ynnari. In normal Craftworld lists they are not the must take unit some people appear to be implying. Hell, I don't see many mono-Craftworld lists use them much these days and even I've stopped using them as I found them lacking and often a liability. I'd rather take Scatterbikes in mono-detachments as they'll be able to keep a distance, fire, and claim unguarded points whereas the Shining Spears require Farseer, Warlock, and stratagem support to actually get their full potential.
Depends on your perspective on that one as currently they melt primaris marines like their stealing candy from a baby.
Maybe if they weren't packing D2 weapons they could be cheaper but with D2 they can have 67% return in a turn befire supporting buffs.
But yes if your charging guardsmen for days they probably do suck, but most things having to charge guardsmen give poor returns.
I think a number of the worst eldar units could probably use some help but spears and reapers definataly don't need points cuts.
I agree on the Reapers, but Shining Spears are in a different spot. They were only good because of the force multiplier that was Ynnari. In normal Craftworld lists they are not the must take unit some people appear to be implying. Hell, I don't see many mono-Craftworld lists use them much these days and even I've stopped using them as I found them lacking and often a liability. I'd rather take Scatterbikes in mono-detachments as they'll be able to keep a distance, fire, and claim unguarded points whereas the Shining Spears require Farseer, Warlock, and stratagem support to actually get their full potential.
Depends on your perspective on that one as currently they melt primaris marines like their stealing candy from a baby.
Maybe if they weren't packing D2 weapons they could be cheaper but with D2 they can have 67% return in a turn befire supporting buffs.
But yes if your charging guardsmen for days they probably do suck, but most things having to charge guardsmen give poor returns.
You’re also talking about marines, where even primaries are in a bad spot. Can’t blame spears for that. 29 ppm isn’t cheap either, but brings them in line which is what you have all been saying you want with other units so you shouldn’t be against it
The D2 ammo is absurd compared to every other frag option in the game. That has to cost something signficant.
Shining spears are crazy good compared to other bike options in the game. They're more dangerous than Custodes, even if they aren't as durable. Looking at the other heavy hitter melee units like grotesques, bulls, custodes, none of the have AP -4, nor AP -4 shooting attacks, but a lot more wounds. They are also a lot slower. Shining spears are still a bargain at their current price. Compared to other melee options in the game, they should probably go up.
Also, nearly all melee loses to guardsmen by virtue of their cost. Take a number, shining spears.
I think a number of the worst eldar units could probably use some help but spears and reapers definataly don't need points cuts.
I agree on the Reapers, but Shining Spears are in a different spot. They were only good because of the force multiplier that was Ynnari. In normal Craftworld lists they are not the must take unit some people appear to be implying. Hell, I don't see many mono-Craftworld lists use them much these days and even I've stopped using them as I found them lacking and often a liability. I'd rather take Scatterbikes in mono-detachments as they'll be able to keep a distance, fire, and claim unguarded points whereas the Shining Spears require Farseer, Warlock, and stratagem support to actually get their full potential.
Depends on your perspective on that one as currently they melt primaris marines like their stealing candy from a baby.
Maybe if they weren't packing D2 weapons they could be cheaper but with D2 they can have 67% return in a turn befire supporting buffs.
What are they shooting with a 67% return?
Take say a regular 3 man squad with a tempest launcher for 107 points (I think?)
Shooting Intercessors.
4*2/3*2/3*2/3=1.185.
7*2/3*1/2*2/3/2=0.777.
=1.96. Lets say 2.
Intercessors are 17 points. 34/107=31% return.
Lets shoot aggressors.
4*2/3*1/2*2/3=0.888
7*2/3*1/3*2/3/2=0.51.
So 1.4.
Times 37=52 points. 52/107=48.6%.
Am I missing something? Hands up if I am.
I don't think regular reapers are going to be that great. You will get one volley off and then you are a points pinata. Its skewed by the Exarch (and the flexibility of the tempest launcher is considerable), but 37 points per wound when you have maybe 10 points worth of defensive stats is horrible, even with stacking a -2 to hit (which you probably wouldn't spend on a min-sized squad). Yes Devs are even worse - but I don't really see how thats a useful metric. Its like comparing everything to a Predator - when the Predator is up there for being the worst vehicle for its points in the game.
I think a number of the worst eldar units could probably use some help but spears and reapers definataly don't need points cuts.
I agree on the Reapers, but Shining Spears are in a different spot. They were only good because of the force multiplier that was Ynnari. In normal Craftworld lists they are not the must take unit some people appear to be implying. Hell, I don't see many mono-Craftworld lists use them much these days and even I've stopped using them as I found them lacking and often a liability. I'd rather take Scatterbikes in mono-detachments as they'll be able to keep a distance, fire, and claim unguarded points whereas the Shining Spears require Farseer, Warlock, and stratagem support to actually get their full potential.
Depends on your perspective on that one as currently they melt primaris marines like their stealing candy from a baby.
Maybe if they weren't packing D2 weapons they could be cheaper but with D2 they can have 67% return in a turn befire supporting buffs.
What are they shooting with a 67% return?
Take say a regular 3 man squad with a tempest launcher for 107 points (I think?)
Shooting Intercessors.
4*2/3*2/3*2/3=1.185.
7*2/3*1/2*2/3/2=0.777.
=1.96. Lets say 2.
Intercessors are 17 points. 34/107=31% return.
Lets shoot aggressors.
4*2/3*1/2*2/3=0.888
7*2/3*1/3*2/3/2=0.51.
So 1.4.
Times 37=52 points. 52/107=48.6%.
Am I missing something? Hands up if I am.
I don't think regular reapers are going to be that great. You will get one volley off and then you are a points pinata. Its skewed by the Exarch (and the flexibility of the tempest launcher is considerable), but 37 points per wound when you have maybe 10 points worth of defensive stats is horrible, even with stacking a -2 to hit (which you probably wouldn't spend on a min-sized squad). Yes Devs are even worse - but I don't really see how thats a useful metric. Its like comparing everything to a Predator - when the Predator is up there for being the worst vehicle for its points in the game.
Not reapers Spears, they can shoot and charge and -4AP D2 weapons are no joke to marine players, like sad panda feels if they are much cheaper marines are even less viable.
They realy don't scream out as being unplayable overcosted, maybe if your charging guardsmen but pretty much anything charging guardsmen looks overcosted.
Reapers aren't good because of their damage, by numbers their damage is actually quite mediocre when compared to other options in the Codex.
It is just that range and transport option allows them to do damage through game where say Fire Dragons would already died turn later after disembarking.
I think a number of the worst eldar units could probably use some help but spears and reapers definataly don't need points cuts.
I agree on the Reapers, but Shining Spears are in a different spot. They were only good because of the force multiplier that was Ynnari. In normal Craftworld lists they are not the must take unit some people appear to be implying. Hell, I don't see many mono-Craftworld lists use them much these days and even I've stopped using them as I found them lacking and often a liability. I'd rather take Scatterbikes in mono-detachments as they'll be able to keep a distance, fire, and claim unguarded points whereas the Shining Spears require Farseer, Warlock, and stratagem support to actually get their full potential.
Depends on your perspective on that one as currently they melt primaris marines like their stealing candy from a baby.
Maybe if they weren't packing D2 weapons they could be cheaper but with D2 they can have 67% return in a turn befire supporting buffs.
But yes if your charging guardsmen for days they probably do suck, but most things having to charge guardsmen give poor returns.
You’re also talking about marines, where even primaries are in a bad spot. Can’t blame spears for that. 29 ppm isn’t cheap either, but brings them in line which is what you have all been saying you want with other units so you shouldn’t be against it
This argument is going nowhere, you have to agree you disagree.
It`s obvious from the tournaments list that no CWE player were using spears before or after the nerf.
Even if they make them again 29 points CWE will not take them.
It`s also noticeable that pure CWE list were not bringing dark reapers.
Leds try to find the positive things in the new index, we all know that is`s big nerf, but what you think could work ?
Martel732 wrote: Why does CWE get the only functional frag ammo?
Again I point you to frontline gaming. The people who help GW. Not every army should do things the same as others. Some are better at melee. Some at shooting. Some are punching bags. This edition marines are punching bags
There you go. Now you just need some scatterbike justifications. And D-weapons. Don't forget to explain why you needed more sources of D-weapons than the rest of the game.
Marin wrote: And to make the matters worse you can get +1 attack. So spears probably do more damage now.
I doubt it would happen on the table often. You would have to run 3 detachments as Ynnari, with all 3 characters.
It pales in comparison what pure CW can do with their Spears (Alaitoc, Biel-Tan, Saim-Hann; Quicken, Protect, Empower, Doom, Conceal, Fortune, LFR, list goes on).
I am saying that for that stratagem, you need to pick 1 unit of each Faction: CW, DE and Clowns. Which means you'd have to build your list from 3 detachments of Ynnari, including all 3 characters (for total ~600+ points).
You're getting your +1 attack, but you have no defensive buffs on Shining Spears, no bonuses to charge from deepstrike, no Quicken, and basically play pure Ynnari army at that point.
I am saying that for that stratagem, you need to pick 1 unit of each Faction: CW, DE and Clowns. Which means you'd have to build your list from 3 detachments of Ynnari, including all 3 characters (for total ~600+ points).
You're getting your +1 attack, but you have no defensive buffs on Shining Spears, no bonuses to charge from deepstrike, no Quicken, and basically play pure Ynnari army at that point.
Got it, i did`t notice you need to have all 3 of them.
Well to the answer of OP... Its up there.. GW sure knows how to bring the nerf hammer... down!!! Kablaaaam!!..
The spin they put on the article beforehand is actualy pretty cringeworthy hilarious though..
" Of course, no Index would be complete without shiny new rules, so you’ll also be treated to new datasheets for the three aforementioned characters and 17 powerful Stratagems, as well as 6 each of the following: Warlord Traits, Relics of Ynnead, Tactical Objectives and psychic powers from the Revenant discipline."
At least here's a prime new example of why chasing the meta and going for the next months flavor doesnt always work out in the wrong run.
I guess that explains a slight boom on ebay so I'll try to get in on some bargains
The positive is, All of a sudden Ynnari just started appealing to me ..
Martel732 wrote: Similar units should have a similar cost. Thats the whole point of cost. I hate it when frontline denies math.
Points are a measure of value conferred on the table.
Sorry if you don’t agree with the people who help establish points costs and rules? Take over their job I guess if you would be so good at it. I’m sure GW would hire you.
I am kinda torn, on one side i can agree that differing armies can have differing cost for units that are equalish, on the other hand Frontline seems to belive that gaps like the Cultist-Guardsmen are perfectly fine now.
and this is just one such incident.
What? Source?
I was listening to Chapter Tactics religiously last year, and almost every single episode, at least one or two of the Frontline guys brought up the balance difference between Cultists and Guardsmen and used it as a soft example of GW getting it wrong, or simply complained about it. Are we just inventing statements for them so we can whine about them now, or did they really do a complete 180 here? If you can't provide a source, I'm going to go with the first one because this seems in direct conflict with everything I've ever heard any of them ever say ever on the topic.
FWIW I don't think units need to be evenly pointed across the dexes to a mathematical standard.
Let me preface that by saying the Guardsmen / Cultist (and Chaos Space Marine) balance is clearly out of wack.
It's okay for different armies to have different strengths. I think special rules, chapter tactics, traits, stratagems and relic have way too much impact for you to put everything down to maths. I think some armies like Knights SHOULD be more resilient for the cost, they are big and fat and a MASSIVE LoS profile, struggle to score and many other limitations (at the moment they are overtuned but I mean when they are fixed). Some armies like Tau SHOULD get cheaper guns, they have almost no stratagems for anything involving close range presence. Armies can have different strengths and weaknesses and pay different amounts for similar units, it helps give each army a defined feel without completely restricting those sorts of tools from play.
Math is the part of game design this community consistently struggles with the most, it's an important tool for evaluating a unit but the majority of people don't seem to understand when it's relevant and think maths trumps critical thought, as opposed to being a tool we can use in our analysis. It completely falls through for units like Obliterators who suddenly have great "math" behind them, but oh look at them having screw-all impact because they are limited by 24" range and needing to wait to turn 2 to suicide deepstrike, and are planted in a codex limited in other ways.
Math is the part of game design this community consistently struggles with the most, it's an important tool for evaluating a unit but the majority of people don't seem to understand when it's relevant. It completely falls through for units like Obliterators who suddenly have great "math" behind them, but oh look at them having screw-all impact because they are limited by 24" range and needing to wait to turn 2 to suicide deepstrike, and are planted in a codex limited in other ways.
Right - I can make some crazy unit designs, call out the math on them, and laud how great they will be, but...how do I make sure that unit does that damage?
It's the same thing with the chaincannon cries of doom. I'm sure some enterprising soul will stick them in a termite drill and that will be quite interesting, but I don't often see their plan for what happens after they popped up on turn 2 giving up board space.
Now, obliterators having more shots makes them sting more, but not for nearly twice the price. There are other advantages in their favor, but it will take time to properly understand the results.
Math is the part of game design this community consistently struggles with the most, it's an important tool for evaluating a unit but the majority of people don't seem to understand when it's relevant. It completely falls through for units like Obliterators who suddenly have great "math" behind them, but oh look at them having screw-all impact because they are limited by 24" range and needing to wait to turn 2 to suicide deepstrike, and are planted in a codex limited in other ways.
Right - I can make some crazy unit designs, call out the math on them, and laud how great they will be, but...how do I make sure that unit does that damage?
It's the same thing with the chaincannon cries of doom. I'm sure some enterprising soul will stick them in a termite drill and that will be quite interesting, but I don't often see their plan for what happens after they popped up on turn 2 giving up board space.
Now, obliterators having more shots makes them sting more, but not for nearly twice the price. There are other advantages in their favor, but it will take time to properly understand the results.
B.c we are talking about Aeldari and Ynnari...
Raiders Wave Serpents -1, -2, to hit Fire and fade DSing
Aeldari can get their to deal the damage, thats not a problem with the army, you can have 30 Wraiths on you turn 2 every game no matter what, you can have turn 1 charges.
With the new Ynnari power (5++ aura) and the PFP still a thing also 6+++ auras, you can have Wave Serpents with 5++, 6+++ at the cost of Yvarine, it might not be as good as -2 to hit, but you can still get a -1 with its -1 damage shield.
Good luck killing 4-5 Wave Serpents in 1 turn with 5++/6+++ and one with -1 to hit, if going 2nd hide and gain 6+++/+2 armor, and -1 damage
Ynnari has its own Doom as well, so you dont lose that, ally in CWE for Jinx. Autarch with Bike can have 6 Srt 7, -3 2D attacks with re-roll aura for him and the Wraiths Have 1 unit with Wraith to shoot and spend 1CP now you always have SfD even in opponents turn Can heal 2d3 or even revive a model in a unit, and can revive a character on a 4+ (can re-roll with CP).
Math is the part of game design this community consistently struggles with the most, it's an important tool for evaluating a unit but the majority of people don't seem to understand when it's relevant. It completely falls through for units like Obliterators who suddenly have great "math" behind them, but oh look at them having screw-all impact because they are limited by 24" range and needing to wait to turn 2 to suicide deepstrike, and are planted in a codex limited in other ways.
Right - I can make some crazy unit designs, call out the math on them, and laud how great they will be, but...how do I make sure that unit does that damage?
It's the same thing with the chaincannon cries of doom. I'm sure some enterprising soul will stick them in a termite drill and that will be quite interesting, but I don't often see their plan for what happens after they popped up on turn 2 giving up board space.
Now, obliterators having more shots makes them sting more, but not for nearly twice the price. There are other advantages in their favor, but it will take time to properly understand the results.
B.c we are talking about Aeldari and Ynnari...
Raiders
Wave Serpents
-1, -2, to hit
Fire and fade
DSing
Aeldari can get their to deal the damage, thats not a problem with the army, you can have 30 Wraiths on you turn 2 every game no matter what, you can have turn 1 charges.
With the new Ynnari power (5++ aura) and the PFP still a thing also 6+++ auras, you can have Wave Serpents with 5++, 6+++ at the cost of Yvarine, it might not be as good as -2 to hit, but you can still get a -1 with its -1 damage shield.
Good luck killing 4-5 Wave Serpents in 1 turn with 5++/6+++ and one with -1 to hit, if going 2nd hide and gain 6+++/+2 armor, and -1 damage
Ynnari has its own Doom as well, so you dont lose that, ally in CWE for Jinx.
Autarch with Bike can have 6 Srt 7, -3 2D attacks with re-roll aura for him and the Wraiths
Have 1 unit with Wraith to shoot and spend 1CP now you always have SfD even in opponents turn
Can heal 2d3 or even revive a model in a unit, and can revive a character on a 4+ (can re-roll with CP).
Case in point...
Those WS will NOT be Alaitoc so no -1 to hit. The 5++ is on your turn, so if you don't have first turn...and if you want a 6+++ you need a 337 point unit for that.
It's 2 CP to stand a character back up once - 3CP to try and make it work. You only get permanent SfD when killing their warlord.
All this in an army with no troops and at most 4CP.
The -1 to hit is from the stratagem, i said 1 can get -1 to hit. I also said "It might not be as good as -2" referring to the 5++/6+++ vs -2. But you can still have 1 with 5++/6+++ and a -1.
The troops are Storm Guardians, 8 models for 48pts that are melee oriented... i didnt think i had to spell that out.
Amishprn86 wrote: The -1 to hit is from the stratagem, i said 1 can get -1 to hit. I also said "It might not be as good as -2" referring to the 5++/6+++ vs -2. But you can still have 1 with 5++/6+++ and a -1.
The troops are Storm Guardians, 8 models for 48pts that are melee oriented... i didnt think i had to spell that out.
My mistake - you're still clocking in at likely no more than 8 CP.
With only 6 wraiths to a serpent you'd be spending a ton more on transport or risk them in the open on turn 1.
I'd love to see someone run it, because wraiths are just plain cool, but without the psytronome I don't think it gets very far.
Is it me or the design was pretty lazy, we have so many things that do the some.
Spell that allow you to reroll wounds in melee.
Anti slanesh stratagem that allow you to reroll wounds in melee.
Stratagem that allow you to reroll wounds in melee.
It look to me that they really will make doom only for CWE.
The warlords trait are locked to the 3 named characters. Of course the most unfunny are picked.
Ynnari will practically disappear from events, outside of those people still running them for ITC Best in Faction.
This isn’t because they will now be “trash” tier though.
What you have to remember, is the new Ynnari army is basically just a Craftworlds/Drukahri army with a different ability. The only difference is that you’re spending 120/132/337 points on a Ynnari character rather than 124 for a Farseer Skyrunner for example.
The Craftworld or Drukarhi base is more than enough to carry the army over the line in a lot of cases. It just won’t be a “easy mode” win for the Ynnari player anymore.
The reason Ynnari will disappear now though, is that if you’re going to rely on the Craftworld/Drukahri aspect carrying your 1 character, then, you might as well just run normal Craftworlds/Drukahri instead and get the better ability, powers, stratagems and relics.
It does open up Drukahri mixed lists a bit more though as everything can buff everything, but I expect this’ll end up more of a gimmick than serious list.
Ynnari will practically disappear from events, outside of those people still running them for ITC Best in Faction.
This isn’t because they will now be “trash” tier though.
What you have to remember, is the new Ynnari army is basically just a Craftworlds/Drukahri army with a different ability. The only difference is that you’re spending 120/132/337 points on a Ynnari character rather than 124 for a Farseer Skyrunner for example.
The Craftworld or Drukarhi base is more than enough to carry the army over the line in a lot of cases. It just won’t be a “easy mode” win for the Ynnari player anymore.
The reason Ynnari will disappear now though, is that if you’re going to rely on the Craftworld/Drukahri aspect carrying your 1 character, then, you might as well just run normal Craftworlds/Drukahri instead and get the better ability, powers, stratagems and relics.
It does open up Drukahri mixed lists a bit more though as everything can buff everything, but I expect this’ll end up more of a gimmick than serious list.
I predict Drukhari lists will run the two non "I am a footslogging daemon prince with some small buffs for double the cost" ynnari characters as secondary HQs because they perform better than "archon with no relics/traits" and "Succubus with no relics/traits". 2 psychic denies with +1 to the roll and a +1 to cast smite+second smitesque power is a solid little character for a drukhari list.
But no, we will never see a majority Ynnari army run, their trait just does not do anything better than Black Heart, Flayed Skull, Cult of Spite or Cursed blade. Not mentioning Harlequins because Harlequins will be pretty much gone from the competitive scene assuming Doom interaction gets nerfed to be worded the same as the new Ynnari power in today's FAQ. They're back to bringing basically nothing that Drukhari and Craftworlds don't do better, aka "Dark Angels Tier".
Which means, incidentally, folks who like seeing things other than knight castellans had better hope those guys get a nerf too, because that's your most reliable one punch hard counter to the 3++stellan absolutely gonzo.
Ynnari will practically disappear from events, outside of those people still running them for ITC Best in Faction.
This isn’t because they will now be “trash” tier though.
What you have to remember, is the new Ynnari army is basically just a Craftworlds/Drukahri army with a different ability. The only difference is that you’re spending 120/132/337 points on a Ynnari character rather than 124 for a Farseer Skyrunner for example.
The Craftworld or Drukarhi base is more than enough to carry the army over the line in a lot of cases. It just won’t be a “easy mode” win for the Ynnari player anymore.
The reason Ynnari will disappear now though, is that if you’re going to rely on the Craftworld/Drukahri aspect carrying your 1 character, then, you might as well just run normal Craftworlds/Drukahri instead and get the better ability, powers, stratagems and relics.
It does open up Drukahri mixed lists a bit more though as everything can buff everything, but I expect this’ll end up more of a gimmick than serious list.
I predict Drukhari lists will run the two non "I am a footslogging daemon prince with some small buffs for double the cost" ynnari characters as secondary HQs because they perform better than "archon with no relics/traits" and "Succubus with no relics/traits". 2 psychic denies with +1 to the roll and a +1 to cast smite+second smitesque power is a solid little character for a drukhari list.
But no, we will never see a majority Ynnari army run, their trait just does not do anything better than Black Heart, Flayed Skull, Cult of Spite or Cursed blade. Not mentioning Harlequins because Harlequins will be pretty much gone from the competitive scene assuming Doom interaction gets nerfed to be worded the same as the new Ynnari power in today's FAQ. They're back to bringing basically nothing that Drukhari and Craftworlds don't do better, aka "Dark Angels Tier".
Which means, incidentally, folks who like seeing things other than knight castellans had better hope those guys get a nerf too, because that's your most reliable one punch hard counter to the 3++stellan absolutely gonzo.
If GW is finally starting to see that unbounded interactions between codex's is a problem, maybe they will actually deal with the problem of unintended interactions between Guard and a CP snorting Castellen.
As much as people complain about the Castellen as it's the visually noticeable part of that list it's nothing like the same beast without CC immunity, fast scoring and anti horde weapons that it just lacks.
Ynnari will practically disappear from events, outside of those people still running them for ITC Best in Faction.
This isn’t because they will now be “trash” tier though.
What you have to remember, is the new Ynnari army is basically just a Craftworlds/Drukahri army with a different ability. The only difference is that you’re spending 120/132/337 points on a Ynnari character rather than 124 for a Farseer Skyrunner for example.
The Craftworld or Drukarhi base is more than enough to carry the army over the line in a lot of cases. It just won’t be a “easy mode” win for the Ynnari player anymore.
The reason Ynnari will disappear now though, is that if you’re going to rely on the Craftworld/Drukahri aspect carrying your 1 character, then, you might as well just run normal Craftworlds/Drukahri instead and get the better ability, powers, stratagems and relics.
It does open up Drukahri mixed lists a bit more though as everything can buff everything, but I expect this’ll end up more of a gimmick than serious list.
I predict Drukhari lists will run the two non "I am a footslogging daemon prince with some small buffs for double the cost" ynnari characters as secondary HQs because they perform better than "archon with no relics/traits" and "Succubus with no relics/traits". 2 psychic denies with +1 to the roll and a +1 to cast smite+second smitesque power is a solid little character for a drukhari list.
But no, we will never see a majority Ynnari army run, their trait just does not do anything better than Black Heart, Flayed Skull, Cult of Spite or Cursed blade. Not mentioning Harlequins because Harlequins will be pretty much gone from the competitive scene assuming Doom interaction gets nerfed to be worded the same as the new Ynnari power in today's FAQ. They're back to bringing basically nothing that Drukhari and Craftworlds don't do better, aka "Dark Angels Tier".
Which means, incidentally, folks who like seeing things other than knight castellans had better hope those guys get a nerf too, because that's your most reliable one punch hard counter to the 3++stellan absolutely gonzo.
If GW is finally starting to see that unbounded interactions between codex's is a problem, maybe they will actually deal with the problem of unintended interactions between Guard and a CP snorting Castellen.
As much as people complain about the Castellen as it's the visually noticeable part of that list it's nothing like the same beast without CC immunity, fast scoring and anti horde weapons that it just lacks.
Oh sure, when it can do reroll all 1s and 3++ exactly ONE time in a game? it's fine. When it can do it three turns in a row without using all the CP it has access to...thaaats a problem.
Did anyone else notice the Hungering Blade replaces a Power Sword, Starglaive or Huskblade. Autarchs and Archons already have access to powerswords, but Succubi don't. It seems really odd to pick those three weapons instead of Power Sword and Archite Glaive. There is no relic weapon a succubus can take, but the other two combat HQs have 2 different ways to take the same one each...
Drager wrote: Did anyone else notice the Hungering Blade replaces a Power Sword, Starglaive or Huskblade. Autarchs and Archons already have access to powerswords, but Succubi don't. It seems really odd to pick those three weapons instead of Power Sword and Archite Glaive. There is no relic weapon a succubus can take, but the other two combat HQs have 2 different ways to take the same one each...
I mean, GW just seems to be hard-committed to making sure the dedicated DE close combat HQ is the worst as close combat, no matter what, so I'm not surprised.
Don't forget, the Succubus has 1 fewer attack than most dedicated CCHQs, and has a weapon with the powerfist -1 to hit with only 1 damage...
Drager wrote: Did anyone else notice the Hungering Blade replaces a Power Sword, Starglaive or Huskblade. Autarchs and Archons already have access to powerswords, but Succubi don't. It seems really odd to pick those three weapons instead of Power Sword and Archite Glaive. There is no relic weapon a succubus can take, but the other two combat HQs have 2 different ways to take the same one each...
I mean, GW just seems to be hard-committed to making sure the dedicated DE close combat HQ is the worst as close combat, no matter what, so I'm not surprised.
Don't forget, the Succubus has 1 fewer attack than most dedicated CCHQs, and has a weapon with the powerfist -1 to hit with only 1 damage...
Yep, that's why I was hoping she could take the relic. No dice. Also only +2 Str, not x2 like a fist...
The marine hits on 4 if he moves, Reaper still hitting on 3.
Add a -1 to hit and the marine is jow on 5+, while the reaper is still 3+.
Martel isn't saying they should be more he's rejecting the claims that they need "massive points reductions" as being demanded by some eldar trolls.
This is kind of a silly scenario further stacked to make it look bad. Why would I ever realistically move my dev with 48" range?
I do agree there shouldn't be any reductions. Reapers and spears were NOT priced like they were Ynnari, which is why they were so good when they were.
Reason to move your heavy weapon squads: Hide turn 1 so you get to shoot before you get shot. Reapers can do that (and still hide again afterwards), devs cannot. Devs are not more survivable than the reapers. +1 Toughness does not beat being able to hide again after shooting. There is a reason JSJ tactics scarred so many veteran players back in the days. Guess who is the only one who has it again.
Also: Shoot against flyers/alaitoc/alpha legion:
Everyone else:
Reaper: Feeling pretty. Might shoot on 3+ later. IDK.
Also: I buff my unit with the Glamour of tzeentch to protect them. Reapers: Lul 3+.
Also: Dev squads (and every other heavy weapon squad in the game): Limited to 4 heavy weapons max. Reaper: Give the weapon to every last guy in the troupe. <-- This is VERY important. If I use 2 units of devs with launchers, I can only buff one. But the dark reapers can be on a single unit and with a single reroll to hit buff: tadaaaa.
Plus the alternate mode of the reaper launcher is so much better than the frag missiles it's not even funny.
MLDevs and reapers are not even close to effectiveness. That's why you never see devastators but you do see reapers in every other Eldar list out there.
Ynnari will practically disappear from events, outside of those people still running them for ITC Best in Faction.
This isn’t because they will now be “trash” tier though.
What you have to remember, is the new Ynnari army is basically just a Craftworlds/Drukahri army with a different ability. The only difference is that you’re spending 120/132/337 points on a Ynnari character rather than 124 for a Farseer Skyrunner for example.
The Craftworld or Drukarhi base is more than enough to carry the army over the line in a lot of cases. It just won’t be a “easy mode” win for the Ynnari player anymore.
The reason Ynnari will disappear now though, is that if you’re going to rely on the Craftworld/Drukahri aspect carrying your 1 character, then, you might as well just run normal Craftworlds/Drukahri instead and get the better ability, powers, stratagems and relics.
It does open up Drukahri mixed lists a bit more though as everything can buff everything, but I expect this’ll end up more of a gimmick than serious list.
I predict Drukhari lists will run the two non "I am a footslogging daemon prince with some small buffs for double the cost" ynnari characters as secondary HQs because they perform better than "archon with no relics/traits" and "Succubus with no relics/traits". 2 psychic denies with +1 to the roll and a +1 to cast smite+second smitesque power is a solid little character for a drukhari list.
But no, we will never see a majority Ynnari army run, their trait just does not do anything better than Black Heart, Flayed Skull, Cult of Spite or Cursed blade. Not mentioning Harlequins because Harlequins will be pretty much gone from the competitive scene assuming Doom interaction gets nerfed to be worded the same as the new Ynnari power in today's FAQ. They're back to bringing basically nothing that Drukhari and Craftworlds don't do better, aka "Dark Angels Tier".
Which means, incidentally, folks who like seeing things other than knight castellans had better hope those guys get a nerf too, because that's your most reliable one punch hard counter to the 3++stellan absolutely gonzo.
If GW is finally starting to see that unbounded interactions between codex's is a problem, maybe they will actually deal with the problem of unintended interactions between Guard and a CP snorting Castellen.
As much as people complain about the Castellen as it's the visually noticeable part of that list it's nothing like the same beast without CC immunity, fast scoring and anti horde weapons that it just lacks.
i find it baffling that people look at the castellen when thinking of how to nerd that list. 4 point guardsmen are clearly the problem. They could go all the way up to 7 points and still be strong.
Ynnari will practically disappear from events, outside of those people still running them for ITC Best in Faction.
This isn’t because they will now be “trash” tier though.
What you have to remember, is the new Ynnari army is basically just a Craftworlds/Drukahri army with a different ability. The only difference is that you’re spending 120/132/337 points on a Ynnari character rather than 124 for a Farseer Skyrunner for example.
The Craftworld or Drukarhi base is more than enough to carry the army over the line in a lot of cases. It just won’t be a “easy mode” win for the Ynnari player anymore.
The reason Ynnari will disappear now though, is that if you’re going to rely on the Craftworld/Drukahri aspect carrying your 1 character, then, you might as well just run normal Craftworlds/Drukahri instead and get the better ability, powers, stratagems and relics.
It does open up Drukahri mixed lists a bit more though as everything can buff everything, but I expect this’ll end up more of a gimmick than serious list.
I predict Drukhari lists will run the two non "I am a footslogging daemon prince with some small buffs for double the cost" ynnari characters as secondary HQs because they perform better than "archon with no relics/traits" and "Succubus with no relics/traits". 2 psychic denies with +1 to the roll and a +1 to cast smite+second smitesque power is a solid little character for a drukhari list.
But no, we will never see a majority Ynnari army run, their trait just does not do anything better than Black Heart, Flayed Skull, Cult of Spite or Cursed blade. Not mentioning Harlequins because Harlequins will be pretty much gone from the competitive scene assuming Doom interaction gets nerfed to be worded the same as the new Ynnari power in today's FAQ. They're back to bringing basically nothing that Drukhari and Craftworlds don't do better, aka "Dark Angels Tier".
Which means, incidentally, folks who like seeing things other than knight castellans had better hope those guys get a nerf too, because that's your most reliable one punch hard counter to the 3++stellan absolutely gonzo.
If GW is finally starting to see that unbounded interactions between codex's is a problem, maybe they will actually deal with the problem of unintended interactions between Guard and a CP snorting Castellen.
As much as people complain about the Castellen as it's the visually noticeable part of that list it's nothing like the same beast without CC immunity, fast scoring and anti horde weapons that it just lacks.
You are dreaming, Castellen will probably recieve the Ynnari treatment.
Ynnari will practically disappear from events, outside of those people still running them for ITC Best in Faction.
This isn’t because they will now be “trash” tier though.
What you have to remember, is the new Ynnari army is basically just a Craftworlds/Drukahri army with a different ability. The only difference is that you’re spending 120/132/337 points on a Ynnari character rather than 124 for a Farseer Skyrunner for example.
The Craftworld or Drukarhi base is more than enough to carry the army over the line in a lot of cases. It just won’t be a “easy mode” win for the Ynnari player anymore.
The reason Ynnari will disappear now though, is that if you’re going to rely on the Craftworld/Drukahri aspect carrying your 1 character, then, you might as well just run normal Craftworlds/Drukahri instead and get the better ability, powers, stratagems and relics.
It does open up Drukahri mixed lists a bit more though as everything can buff everything, but I expect this’ll end up more of a gimmick than serious list.
I predict Drukhari lists will run the two non "I am a footslogging daemon prince with some small buffs for double the cost" ynnari characters as secondary HQs because they perform better than "archon with no relics/traits" and "Succubus with no relics/traits". 2 psychic denies with +1 to the roll and a +1 to cast smite+second smitesque power is a solid little character for a drukhari list.
But no, we will never see a majority Ynnari army run, their trait just does not do anything better than Black Heart, Flayed Skull, Cult of Spite or Cursed blade. Not mentioning Harlequins because Harlequins will be pretty much gone from the competitive scene assuming Doom interaction gets nerfed to be worded the same as the new Ynnari power in today's FAQ. They're back to bringing basically nothing that Drukhari and Craftworlds don't do better, aka "Dark Angels Tier".
Which means, incidentally, folks who like seeing things other than knight castellans had better hope those guys get a nerf too, because that's your most reliable one punch hard counter to the 3++stellan absolutely gonzo.
If GW is finally starting to see that unbounded interactions between codex's is a problem, maybe they will actually deal with the problem of unintended interactions between Guard and a CP snorting Castellen.
As much as people complain about the Castellen as it's the visually noticeable part of that list it's nothing like the same beast without CC immunity, fast scoring and anti horde weapons that it just lacks.
i find it baffling that people look at the castellen when thinking of how to nerd that list. 4 point guardsmen are clearly the problem. They could go all the way up to 7 points and still be strong.
No problem with both honestly. Guards to 5 pts, because honestly they should not cost the same as a freaking termagant. Castellan capped to 4++ save. I'd be pretty happy.
Ynnari will practically disappear from events, outside of those people still running them for ITC Best in Faction.
This isn’t because they will now be “trash” tier though.
What you have to remember, is the new Ynnari army is basically just a Craftworlds/Drukahri army with a different ability. The only difference is that you’re spending 120/132/337 points on a Ynnari character rather than 124 for a Farseer Skyrunner for example.
The Craftworld or Drukarhi base is more than enough to carry the army over the line in a lot of cases. It just won’t be a “easy mode” win for the Ynnari player anymore.
The reason Ynnari will disappear now though, is that if you’re going to rely on the Craftworld/Drukahri aspect carrying your 1 character, then, you might as well just run normal Craftworlds/Drukahri instead and get the better ability, powers, stratagems and relics.
It does open up Drukahri mixed lists a bit more though as everything can buff everything, but I expect this’ll end up more of a gimmick than serious list.
I predict Drukhari lists will run the two non "I am a footslogging daemon prince with some small buffs for double the cost" ynnari characters as secondary HQs because they perform better than "archon with no relics/traits" and "Succubus with no relics/traits". 2 psychic denies with +1 to the roll and a +1 to cast smite+second smitesque power is a solid little character for a drukhari list.
But no, we will never see a majority Ynnari army run, their trait just does not do anything better than Black Heart, Flayed Skull, Cult of Spite or Cursed blade. Not mentioning Harlequins because Harlequins will be pretty much gone from the competitive scene assuming Doom interaction gets nerfed to be worded the same as the new Ynnari power in today's FAQ. They're back to bringing basically nothing that Drukhari and Craftworlds don't do better, aka "Dark Angels Tier".
Which means, incidentally, folks who like seeing things other than knight castellans had better hope those guys get a nerf too, because that's your most reliable one punch hard counter to the 3++stellan absolutely gonzo.
If GW is finally starting to see that unbounded interactions between codex's is a problem, maybe they will actually deal with the problem of unintended interactions between Guard and a CP snorting Castellen.
As much as people complain about the Castellen as it's the visually noticeable part of that list it's nothing like the same beast without CC immunity, fast scoring and anti horde weapons that it just lacks.
i find it baffling that people look at the castellen when thinking of how to nerd that list. 4 point guardsmen are clearly the problem. They could go all the way up to 7 points and still be strong.
Ynnari will practically disappear from events, outside of those people still running them for ITC Best in Faction.
This isn’t because they will now be “trash” tier though.
What you have to remember, is the new Ynnari army is basically just a Craftworlds/Drukahri army with a different ability. The only difference is that you’re spending 120/132/337 points on a Ynnari character rather than 124 for a Farseer Skyrunner for example.
The Craftworld or Drukarhi base is more than enough to carry the army over the line in a lot of cases. It just won’t be a “easy mode” win for the Ynnari player anymore.
The reason Ynnari will disappear now though, is that if you’re going to rely on the Craftworld/Drukahri aspect carrying your 1 character, then, you might as well just run normal Craftworlds/Drukahri instead and get the better ability, powers, stratagems and relics.
It does open up Drukahri mixed lists a bit more though as everything can buff everything, but I expect this’ll end up more of a gimmick than serious list.
I predict Drukhari lists will run the two non "I am a footslogging daemon prince with some small buffs for double the cost" ynnari characters as secondary HQs because they perform better than "archon with no relics/traits" and "Succubus with no relics/traits". 2 psychic denies with +1 to the roll and a +1 to cast smite+second smitesque power is a solid little character for a drukhari list.
But no, we will never see a majority Ynnari army run, their trait just does not do anything better than Black Heart, Flayed Skull, Cult of Spite or Cursed blade. Not mentioning Harlequins because Harlequins will be pretty much gone from the competitive scene assuming Doom interaction gets nerfed to be worded the same as the new Ynnari power in today's FAQ. They're back to bringing basically nothing that Drukhari and Craftworlds don't do better, aka "Dark Angels Tier".
Which means, incidentally, folks who like seeing things other than knight castellans had better hope those guys get a nerf too, because that's your most reliable one punch hard counter to the 3++stellan absolutely gonzo.
If GW is finally starting to see that unbounded interactions between codex's is a problem, maybe they will actually deal with the problem of unintended interactions between Guard and a CP snorting Castellen.
As much as people complain about the Castellen as it's the visually noticeable part of that list it's nothing like the same beast without CC immunity, fast scoring and anti horde weapons that it just lacks.
i find it baffling that people look at the castellen when thinking of how to nerd that list. 4 point guardsmen are clearly the problem. They could go all the way up to 7 points and still be strong.
Because you can run the same list with Admech.
Or sisters.
Or any other allied cheap screen.
Won't be nearly as effective. And that's a good thing.
Also: Dev squads (and every other heavy weapon squad in the game): Limited to 4 heavy weapons max. Reaper: Give the weapon to every last guy in the troupe. <-- This is VERY important. If I use 2 units of devs with launchers, I can only buff one. But the dark reapers can be on a single unit and with a single reroll to hit buff: tadaaaa.
I must have missed the FAQ where SM buffs only affected 1 model instead of all models in their HQ's bubbles.
SM can take ablaitive woulds for 13ppm. Reapers can't. For what Marines can pay to increase their durability by +100%, Reapers can increase their firepower by ~50%.
It's a tradeoff. Reapers are certainly better, but in the Ablaitive Wounds vs More Guns, there are ups and downs.
Plus the alternate mode of the reaper launcher is so much better than the frag missiles it's not even funny.
MLDevs and reapers are not even close to effectiveness. That's why you never see devastators but you do see reapers in every other Eldar list out there.
If only SMDevs had a weapon that could do H2 S5 D2 like Reapers. Unfortunatley, they're stuck with Hd3 S8 D2 instead...
Reapers are more akin to PCDevs - 12" more range and always-hits-on-3s for +3S counterbalanced by Gets Hot. Higher firepower concentration vs Ablaitive Wounds, Signum/Cherub, and durability. Better single-unit buffs vs better aura buffs.
Reapers are better off, but not by as much as many say.
Ynnari will practically disappear from events, outside of those people still running them for ITC Best in Faction.
This isn’t because they will now be “trash” tier though.
What you have to remember, is the new Ynnari army is basically just a Craftworlds/Drukahri army with a different ability. The only difference is that you’re spending 120/132/337 points on a Ynnari character rather than 124 for a Farseer Skyrunner for example.
The Craftworld or Drukarhi base is more than enough to carry the army over the line in a lot of cases. It just won’t be a “easy mode” win for the Ynnari player anymore.
The reason Ynnari will disappear now though, is that if you’re going to rely on the Craftworld/Drukahri aspect carrying your 1 character, then, you might as well just run normal Craftworlds/Drukahri instead and get the better ability, powers, stratagems and relics.
It does open up Drukahri mixed lists a bit more though as everything can buff everything, but I expect this’ll end up more of a gimmick than serious list.
I predict Drukhari lists will run the two non "I am a footslogging daemon prince with some small buffs for double the cost" ynnari characters as secondary HQs because they perform better than "archon with no relics/traits" and "Succubus with no relics/traits". 2 psychic denies with +1 to the roll and a +1 to cast smite+second smitesque power is a solid little character for a drukhari list.
But no, we will never see a majority Ynnari army run, their trait just does not do anything better than Black Heart, Flayed Skull, Cult of Spite or Cursed blade. Not mentioning Harlequins because Harlequins will be pretty much gone from the competitive scene assuming Doom interaction gets nerfed to be worded the same as the new Ynnari power in today's FAQ. They're back to bringing basically nothing that Drukhari and Craftworlds don't do better, aka "Dark Angels Tier".
Which means, incidentally, folks who like seeing things other than knight castellans had better hope those guys get a nerf too, because that's your most reliable one punch hard counter to the 3++stellan absolutely gonzo.
If GW is finally starting to see that unbounded interactions between codex's is a problem, maybe they will actually deal with the problem of unintended interactions between Guard and a CP snorting Castellen.
As much as people complain about the Castellen as it's the visually noticeable part of that list it's nothing like the same beast without CC immunity, fast scoring and anti horde weapons that it just lacks.
i find it baffling that people look at the castellen when thinking of how to nerd that list. 4 point guardsmen are clearly the problem. They could go all the way up to 7 points and still be strong.
Because you can run the same list with Admech.
Or sisters.
Or any other allied cheap screen.
Won't be nearly as effective. And that's a good thing.
given that we have seen sisters and admech used in competitive play with the castellan pretty frequently I don't think the effectiveness gap is going to be as big as you want it to be. And even if guardsmen were hiked to what they're probably worth (5pts) costing the castellan combo 60 or 30 (depending on battalion or brigade) is going to be a drop in the bucket in terms of reducing its effectiveness. Until the systemic problem of allied CP feeding is addressed, the only way to make the castellan combo go away is significantly nerfing the element that burns the fuel, because the element that is the fuel is common enough.
Bit off topic, but, as it’s to do with nerfs, I believe the damage to the Castellan is ~100 points. Now, whether that changes much, we will have to wait and see.
Not heard anything in regards to Guard changes - but then i didn't ask. All other Knights are remaining unchanged i believe.
Kdash wrote: Bit off topic, but, as it’s to do with nerfs, I believe the damage to the Castellan is ~100 points. Now, whether that changes much, we will have to wait and see.
Not heard anything in regards to Guard changes - but then i didn't ask. All other Knights are remaining unchanged i believe.
Damn well expect to see guard just swap that Castellen for a crusader now.
Then people will want all knights Nerfed.
Sad panda that GW hasn't addressed the cause of the problem instead of the symptom.
Kdash wrote: Bit off topic, but, as it’s to do with nerfs, I believe the damage to the Castellan is ~100 points. Now, whether that changes much, we will have to wait and see.
Not heard anything in regards to Guard changes - but then i didn't ask. All other Knights are remaining unchanged i believe.
Damn well expect to see guard just swap that Castellen for a crusader now.
Then people will want all knights Nerfed.
Sad panda that GW hasn't addressed the cause of the problem instead of the symptom.
I have no idea what the actual FAQ bits are going to be though. Only a couple of "hints" here and there about certain points costs. They could well be addressing that particular problem with new beta rules.
But i agree. Castellans will just become Crusaders. I got destroyed at the weekend by a list using 3 Crusaders, a Guard Battalion and an Admech battalion. Was running my own Gallant, but the rest of Shadowspear marines and Guard...
Drager wrote: Did anyone else notice the Hungering Blade replaces a Power Sword, Starglaive or Huskblade. Autarchs and Archons already have access to powerswords, but Succubi don't. It seems really odd to pick those three weapons instead of Power Sword and Archite Glaive. There is no relic weapon a succubus can take, but the other two combat HQs have 2 different ways to take the same one each...
I mean, GW just seems to be hard-committed to making sure the dedicated DE close combat HQ is the worst as close combat, no matter what, so I'm not surprised.
Don't forget, the Succubus has 1 fewer attack than most dedicated CCHQs, and has a weapon with the powerfist -1 to hit with only 1 damage...
Yep, that's why I was hoping she could take the relic. No dice. Also only +2 Str, not x2 like a fist...
Honestly, I'm equally irritated that the Song of Ynnead can only replace a Shuriken Pistol - not a Splinter Pistol. So it's basically off-limits to DE characters.
Thanks for that, GW. I not also that there's no equivalent piece of wargear that can only be taken by DE characters.
Also: Dev squads (and every other heavy weapon squad in the game): Limited to 4 heavy weapons max. Reaper: Give the weapon to every last guy in the troupe. <-- This is VERY important. If I use 2 units of devs with launchers, I can only buff one. But the dark reapers can be on a single unit and with a single reroll to hit buff: tadaaaa.
I must have missed the FAQ where SM buffs only affected 1 model instead of all models in their HQ's bubbles.
SM can take ablaitive woulds for 13ppm. Reapers can't. For what Marines can pay to increase their durability by +100%, Reapers can increase their firepower by ~50%.
It's a tradeoff. Reapers are certainly better, but in the Ablaitive Wounds vs More Guns, there are ups and downs.
Plus the alternate mode of the reaper launcher is so much better than the frag missiles it's not even funny.
MLDevs and reapers are not even close to effectiveness. That's why you never see devastators but you do see reapers in every other Eldar list out there.
If only SMDevs had a weapon that could do H2 S5 D2 like Reapers. Unfortunatley, they're stuck with Hd3 S8 D2 instead...
Reapers are more akin to PCDevs - 12" more range and always-hits-on-3s for +3S counterbalanced by Gets Hot. Higher firepower concentration vs Ablaitive Wounds, Signum/Cherub, and durability. Better single-unit buffs vs better aura buffs.
Reapers are better off, but not by as much as many say.
Or heck, you could compare them to Long Fangs with plasma cannons. 6PPM more and you get about 30% more damage to vehicles, 50% more damage to 2-wound MEQs, and relatively similar durability if you assume the single die shift you usually get between T3 and T4 is accounted for with the -1 to hit the reapers are likely to get. And if the always hitting on 3s thing is relevant, you can use a 1cp stratagem to give that to the long fangs.
Units that are analogous to reapers at their current point cost do exist in other armies, units that are analogous to double-shooting dark reapers definitely do not.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, "proving" Dark Reapers are OP by talking about how much better they are than missile launchers is laughable.
Eldar have missile launchers. They're not reaper launchers, they're missile launchers, the same as everyone else's. And the same as everyone else's, they suck, because missile launchers just suck and GW hasn't figured out how to fix it.
Comparing a decent/good option to a trash option is like proving Leman Russ tanks are underpowered by trotting out the Vanquisher, or saying Guard vehicles are overcosted because when you put heavy stubbers track guards dozer blades searchlights and a heavy flamer on a Basilisk, it costs too much points. When a unit has the advantage of an extensive weapon list it should be assumed they are taking the most optimal options within that weapon list.
Don't get me wrong; I really wish the S5 profile were D1 instead of D2 - like most D2 weapons. Just pointing out that other factions have similar weaponry (mostly Plasma, of some form - Plasma Cannon, Disintigrator Cannon, etc).
Well, I got the WD today and looked through the rules.
Not really something to consider. Its much worse than I thought.
The SfD rule is for cc oriented armies but Aeldari are not.
Just pass it.
Bharring wrote: Don't get me wrong; I really wish the S5 profile were D1 instead of D2 - like most D2 weapons. Just pointing out that other factions have similar weaponry (mostly Plasma, of some form - Plasma Cannon, Disintigrator Cannon, etc).
I think the issue is that -1Ld if it kills a model is a really niche benefit, whereas D2 (like the SoB artefact bolt pistol) is useful in far more situations.
The SfD rule is for cc oriented armies but Aeldari are not.
What do you mean? Eldar armies have Grotesques and Talos which are great melee units. Mandrakes are pretty good, too. Oh, wait, all of them are banned in Ynnari detachments.
wuestenfux wrote: Well, I got the WD today and looked through the rules. Not really something to consider. Its much worse than I thought. The SfD rule is for cc oriented armies but Aeldari are not. Just pass it.
Which, to be fair, is probably what Ynnari should be. I'm sure we'll get some decent combos* showing up, but I think this is overall a good move for the game. Ynnari shouldn't be the defacto option for competitive Aeldari. It's nice the CWE and DE will still be the choices for gunlines. Ynnari are such a small faction in comparison to the other's that they really should just be a casual list option.
*For example, I could see an Ynnari Outrider with Skyweavers added to any Aeldari Faction. They'd still benefit from Doom and the melee buffs make them a bit more aggressive. They no longer lose Rising Crescendo and Harlie strats should still affect them (if you have a separate Harlie detachment to generate the strats). Really, Ynnari "armies" are no longer viable, but adding an Ynnari detachment isn't so bad
Galef wrote: Which, to be fair, is probably what Ynnari should be. I'm sure we'll get some decent combos* showing up, but I think this is overall a good move for the game.
Ynnari shouldn't be the defacto option for competitive Aeldari. It's nice the CWE and DE will still be the choices for gunlines. Ynnari are such a small faction in comparison to the other's that they really should just be a casual list option.
I agree. But in that case, why do they need to be absurdly awkward to even use?
Reemule wrote: I see several people remarking how much they suck, and then how they haven't read the Powers, Strats, Traits, or Relics. That is good for a laugh.
Also: Dev squads (and every other heavy weapon squad in the game): Limited to 4 heavy weapons max. Reaper: Give the weapon to every last guy in the troupe. <-- This is VERY important. If I use 2 units of devs with launchers, I can only buff one. But the dark reapers can be on a single unit and with a single reroll to hit buff: tadaaaa.
I must have missed the FAQ where SM buffs only affected 1 model instead of all models in their HQ's bubbles.
SM can take ablaitive woulds for 13ppm. Reapers can't. For what Marines can pay to increase their durability by +100%, Reapers can increase their firepower by ~50%.
It's a tradeoff. Reapers are certainly better, but in the Ablaitive Wounds vs More Guns, there are ups and downs.
Plus the alternate mode of the reaper launcher is so much better than the frag missiles it's not even funny.
MLDevs and reapers are not even close to effectiveness. That's why you never see devastators but you do see reapers in every other Eldar list out there.
If only SMDevs had a weapon that could do H2 S5 D2 like Reapers. Unfortunatley, they're stuck with Hd3 S8 D2 instead...
Reapers are more akin to PCDevs - 12" more range and always-hits-on-3s for +3S counterbalanced by Gets Hot. Higher firepower concentration vs Ablaitive Wounds, Signum/Cherub, and durability. Better single-unit buffs vs better aura buffs.
Reapers are better off, but not by as much as many say.
Or heck, you could compare them to Long Fangs with plasma cannons. 6PPM more and you get about 30% more damage to vehicles, 50% more damage to 2-wound MEQs, and relatively similar durability if you assume the single die shift you usually get between T3 and T4 is accounted for with the -1 to hit the reapers are likely to get. And if the always hitting on 3s thing is relevant, you can use a 1cp stratagem to give that to the long fangs.
Units that are analogous to reapers at their current point cost do exist in other armies, units that are analogous to double-shooting dark reapers definitely do not.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, "proving" Dark Reapers are OP by talking about how much better they are than missile launchers is laughable.
Eldar have missile launchers. They're not reaper launchers, they're missile launchers, the same as everyone else's. And the same as everyone else's, they suck, because missile launchers just suck and GW hasn't figured out how to fix it.
Comparing a decent/good option to a trash option is like proving Leman Russ tanks are underpowered by trotting out the Vanquisher, or saying Guard vehicles are overcosted because when you put heavy stubbers track guards dozer blades searchlights and a heavy flamer on a Basilisk, it costs too much points. When a unit has the advantage of an extensive weapon list it should be assumed they are taking the most optimal options within that weapon list.
EML has ap-1 on it's frag round. That actually makes it okay. The reason no one takes it is because it costs too much,
The SfD rule is for cc oriented armies but Aeldari are not.
What do you mean? Eldar armies have Grotesques and Talos which are great melee units. Mandrakes are pretty good, too. Oh, wait, all of them are banned in Ynnari detachments.
Exactly.
Drukhari has decent melee units but unfortunately Coven units cannot be included.
Reemule wrote: I see several people remarking how much they suck, and then how they haven't read the Powers, Strats, Traits, or Relics. That is good for a laugh.
Except we have seen the powers strats and relics and there is nothing amazing among those.
Your better of just sticking to Craftworld or DE.
Galef wrote: Which, to be fair, is probably what Ynnari should be. I'm sure we'll get some decent combos* showing up, but I think this is overall a good move for the game.
Ynnari shouldn't be the defacto option for competitive Aeldari. It's nice the CWE and DE will still be the choices for gunlines. Ynnari are such a small faction in comparison to the other's that they really should just be a casual list option.
I agree. But in that case, why do they need to be absurdly awkward to even use?
Ironically, I feel like having to START with CWE, DE or Harlie detachments first and then convert them to Ynnari is intended to make it LESS awkward, not moreso. Classic GW execution, though.
I mean, in theory players aren't supposed to be cherry-picking units to fill detachments. GW is pretty clear that in Matched play, you need to stick with a single faction per detachment and the shared keyword cannot be Imperium, Chaos, Aeldari or....Ynnari. So in that regard, at least it's consistent, if awkwardly done.
In fact, by adding this restriction, the Battle Bros FAQ doesn't even need to include YNNARI as the rules for Ynnari now cover that for them.
Galef wrote: Which, to be fair, is probably what Ynnari should be. I'm sure we'll get some decent combos* showing up, but I think this is overall a good move for the game.
Ynnari shouldn't be the defacto option for competitive Aeldari. It's nice the CWE and DE will still be the choices for gunlines. Ynnari are such a small faction in comparison to the other's that they really should just be a casual list option.
I agree. But in that case, why do they need to be absurdly awkward to even use?
Ironically, I feel like having to START with CWE, DE or Harlie detachments first and then convert them to Ynnari is intended to make it LESS awkward, not moreso. Classic GW execution, though.
I mean, in theory players aren't supposed to be cherry-picking units to fill detachments. GW is pretty clear that in Matched play, you need to stick with a single faction per detachment and the shared keyword cannot be Imperium, Chaos, Aeldari or....Ynnari. So in that regard, at least it's consistent, if awkwardly done.
In fact, by adding this restriction, the Battle Bros FAQ doesn't even need to include YNNARI as the rules for Ynnari now cover that for them.
-
Honestly, if they dropped the requirement to include one of the Triumvirate I think these detachment building rules would be completely fine. I'd even be tempted to slot in a small Ynnari force to my army.
As they currently are? Hard no. Yvraine might be my second DEHQ and that's it.
Galef wrote: Ironically, I feel like having to START with CWE, DE or Harlie detachments first and then convert them to Ynnari is intended to make it LESS awkward, not moreso. Classic GW execution, though.
I doubt it. IMO the only reason they've done this is to sell the Ynnari characters.
Galef wrote: Ironically, I feel like having to START with CWE, DE or Harlie detachments first and then convert them to Ynnari is intended to make it LESS awkward, not moreso. Classic GW execution, though.
I doubt it. IMO the only reason they've done this is to sell the Ynnari characters.
I mean, in theory players aren't supposed to be cherry-picking units to fill detachments.
If the only restriction was that Ynnari had to be built as separate detachments, I'd be completely fine with it.
My issue is that every detachment has to have a Ynnari special character in it just to be Ynnari. There is no other way to use Ynnari.
As far as I'm concerned, whoever wrote that rule can go sit on a cactus.
Fair enough.
I can certainly see people's dislike of requiring a limited selection of Special characters in any force. However, I think many would be singing a different tune if 1 or 2 of those characters had amazing rules and were auto-includes because of it. I can also respect the fluff that Ynnari do not exist on their own and thus far have ALWAYS been present around one of the 3 Characters.
I am actually starting to really like this requirement and see that Ynnari are NOT supposed to be another Faction of Aeldari, but more like a splinter faction that exists around those specific characters. Although I think a good "compromise" option would have been to have a list of specific HQs that "unlock" The Ynnari keyword. In addition to the 3 Characters, they could have included Eldrad (who at this point SHOULD be Ynnari since he's been kicked out of Ulthwe), A Shadowseer, Spiritseer, Succubus, and maybe the Phoenix Lords. Were already have named characters (in the fluff) in these roles that have converted to Ynnari, so maybe having those as alternatives to the specific 3 could have worked
wuestenfux wrote: Well, I got the WD today and looked through the rules.
Not really something to consider. Its much worse than I thought.
The SfD rule is for cc oriented armies but Aeldari are not.
Just pass it.
Which, to be fair, is probably what Ynnari should be. I'm sure we'll get some decent combos* showing up, but I think this is overall a good move for the game.
Ynnari shouldn't be the defacto option for competitive Aeldari. It's nice the CWE and DE will still be the choices for gunlines. Ynnari are such a small faction in comparison to the other's that they really should just be a casual list option.
*For example, I could see an Ynnari Outrider with Skyweavers added to any Aeldari Faction. They'd still benefit from Doom and the melee buffs make them a bit more aggressive.
They no longer lose Rising Crescendo and Harlie strats should still affect them (if you have a separate Harlie detachment to generate the strats).
Really, Ynnari "armies" are no longer viable, but adding an Ynnari detachment isn't so bad
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Why should Ynnari be close combat oriented only, that doesn't make any sense. I very much doubt there will be any decent combos coming out of this, or at least any that aren't better from their standard codexes. For instance your example doesn't work as the Ynnari rules specifically prevent you from being the target of Psychic powers and stratagems from their parent codex. Doom would still work but I wouldn't be that surprised if the FAQ changes it so that only ASURYANI or <CRAFTWORLD> units can benefit from it.
Imateria wrote: Why should Ynnari be close combat oriented only, that doesn't make any sense. I very much doubt there will be any decent combos coming out of this, or at least any that aren't better from their standard codexes. For instance your example doesn't work as the Ynnari rules specifically prevent you from being the target of Psychic powers and stratagems from their parent codex. Doom would still work but I wouldn't be that surprised if the FAQ changes it so that only ASURYANI or <CRAFTWORLD> units can benefit from it.
Ynnari being CC oriented because the ghost of the dead empowering them makes more sense than it making them "fast enough" to do a whole other shooting action. It's also much less "abusable". And until FAQ'd (which I agree it shold be limited to Asuryani units") Doom would still work.
And actually, Doom would still work on Ynnari Asuryani units even then. The Ynnari rules prevent you from taking Psychic powers or targeting Ynnari units, but a separate CWE detachment could take Doom and it targets the enemy. Since Asuryani units would still have the Asuryani keyword, they would still benefit from DOOM. Although that doesn't help Skyweavers, that's just a side note and currently Doom does still work for them.
Ynnari will practically disappear from events, outside of those people still running them for ITC Best in Faction.
This isn’t because they will now be “trash” tier though.
What you have to remember, is the new Ynnari army is basically just a Craftworlds/Drukahri army with a different ability. The only difference is that you’re spending 120/132/337 points on a Ynnari character rather than 124 for a Farseer Skyrunner for example.
The Craftworld or Drukarhi base is more than enough to carry the army over the line in a lot of cases. It just won’t be a “easy mode” win for the Ynnari player anymore.
The reason Ynnari will disappear now though, is that if you’re going to rely on the Craftworld/Drukahri aspect carrying your 1 character, then, you might as well just run normal Craftworlds/Drukahri instead and get the better ability, powers, stratagems and relics.
It does open up Drukahri mixed lists a bit more though as everything can buff everything, but I expect this’ll end up more of a gimmick than serious list.
I think this is right.
We might see the Ynnari characters in non-Ynnari detachments and possibly a few attempts at a melee army, but overall the presence of Ynnari will be significantly less.
I can certainly see people's dislike of requiring a limited selection of Special characters in any force. However, I think many would be singing a different tune if 1 or 2 of those characters had amazing rules and were auto-includes because of it.
Nope. I'd still hate being forced to use special characters just to play the army.
I am actually starting to really like this requirement and see that Ynnari are NOT supposed to be another Faction of Aeldari, but more like a splinter faction that exists around those specific characters.
Although I think a good "compromise" option would have been to have a list of specific HQs that "unlock" The Ynnari keyword.
In addition to the 3 Characters, they could have included Eldrad (who at this point SHOULD be Ynnari since he's been kicked out of Ulthwe), A Shadowseer, Spiritseer, Succubus, and maybe the Phoenix Lords.
Are we just pulling requirements out of a hat now?
Ynnari will practically disappear from events, outside of those people still running them for ITC Best in Faction. This isn’t because they will now be “trash” tier though.
What you have to remember, is the new Ynnari army is basically just a Craftworlds/Drukahri army with a different ability. The only difference is that you’re spending 120/132/337 points on a Ynnari character rather than 124 for a Farseer Skyrunner for example.
The Craftworld or Drukarhi base is more than enough to carry the army over the line in a lot of cases. It just won’t be a “easy mode” win for the Ynnari player anymore.
The reason Ynnari will disappear now though, is that if you’re going to rely on the Craftworld/Drukahri aspect carrying your 1 character, then, you might as well just run normal Craftworlds/Drukahri instead and get the better ability, powers, stratagems and relics. It does open up Drukahri mixed lists a bit more though as everything can buff everything, but I expect this’ll end up more of a gimmick than serious list.
I think this is right.
We might see the Ynnari characters in non-Ynnari detachments and possibly a few attempts at a melee army, but overall the presence of Ynnari will be significantly less.
It's also worth noting that the Ynnari Keyword is specifically NOT a faction keyword by its own rules. So in that regard you shouldn't see YNNARI in faction breakdowns for event AT ALL, regardless of Ynnari placing or not.
I can certainly see people's dislike of requiring a limited selection of Special characters in any force. However, I think many would be singing a different tune if 1 or 2 of those characters had amazing rules and were auto-includes because of it.
Nope. I'd still hate being forced to use special characters just to play the army.
I can also respect the fluff that Ynnari do not exist on their own and thus far have ALWAYS been present around one of the 3 Characters.
Yep. I'm sure those three characters are everywhere in the galaxy at all times.
Couple things: I already agreed that beign forced to use a specific Character kinda sucks. But if those characters had awesome rules, people would take them anyway regardless of being required to, so they'd still be everywhere. And to your "everywhere in the galaxy at all time" reference, the point I was trying to make wasn't that those Characters should be everywhere, but that the ARMY should only be where those characters are. Ynnari do not exist all over the galaxy (yet). They are a small splinter faction that exists AROUND those 3 characters, which just so happen to usually be around each other (I don't believe the Visarch leaves Yvraine's side, for example)
Is it ideal for gameplay and flexibility? Absoultely not Is it one of the few times GW has made the restrictions based on fluff? Probably Does it also inflate the sales of those model? You betcha
wuestenfux wrote: Well, I got the WD today and looked through the rules.
Not really something to consider. Its much worse than I thought.
The SfD rule is for cc oriented armies but Aeldari are not.
Just pass it.
Which, to be fair, is probably what Ynnari should be. I'm sure we'll get some decent combos* showing up, but I think this is overall a good move for the game.
Ynnari shouldn't be the defacto option for competitive Aeldari. It's nice the CWE and DE will still be the choices for gunlines. Ynnari are such a small faction in comparison to the other's that they really should just be a casual list option.
*For example, I could see an Ynnari Outrider with Skyweavers added to any Aeldari Faction. They'd still benefit from Doom and the melee buffs make them a bit more aggressive.
They no longer lose Rising Crescendo and Harlie strats should still affect them (if you have a separate Harlie detachment to generate the strats).
Really, Ynnari "armies" are no longer viable, but adding an Ynnari detachment isn't so bad
-
Why should Ynnari be close combat oriented only, that doesn't make any sense. I very much doubt there will be any decent combos coming out of this, or at least any that aren't better from their standard codexes. For instance your example doesn't work as the Ynnari rules specifically prevent you from being the target of Psychic powers and stratagems from their parent codex. Doom would still work but I wouldn't be that surprised if the FAQ changes it so that only ASURYANI or <CRAFTWORLD> units can benefit from it.
The real reason is the redundancy and locked options. Maybe there is combo that will work, but i don`t see it.
It's actually easier to make a mixed list without ynnari. I like their melee focus, but that one named character per detachment really kills them for me as a casual player. Nope to "your dudes" or to a mixed ynnari army at ~1250pts.
shortymcnostrill wrote: It's actually easier to make a mixed list without ynnari. I like their melee focus, but that one named character per detachment really kills them for me as a casual player. Nope to "your dudes" or to a mixed ynnari army at ~1250pts.
Galas wrote: Maybe the soulburst double turn actions are now stratagems or psychic powers.
They are not, it's glorious. Gutted. Word of the Phoenix is a healing power now.
Which, given the nature of Phoenixes, makes a lot more sense. Still, there should have been AT LEAST 1 shoot twice or fight twice stratagem. I mean even Marines have a fight twice strat for 3CPs. Ynnari should have had a Fight twice for 2CPs and a shoot twice for 3CPs. At least that would have made everything else palatable.
But the warlord traits and relics are seriously a step ahead of everyone else's, the spells are pretty good and the stratagems seem pretty good on paper too.
Heck, one of the stratagems turns the soulburst into always-on once you kill the enemy warlord, as if it wasn't already desirable enough to do so.
BoomWolf wrote: Soulburst took a pipe to the back of the head...
But the warlord traits and relics are seriously a step ahead of everyone else's, the spells are pretty good and the stratagems seem pretty good on paper too.
Heck, one of the stratagems turns the soulburst into always-on once you kill the enemy warlord, as if it wasn't already desirable enough to do so.
I'm waiting for someone to try that with some custards in an army for some sgoulder the mantal shenanigans.
BoomWolf wrote: Soulburst took a pipe to the back of the head...
But the warlord traits and relics are seriously a step ahead of everyone else's, the spells are pretty good and the stratagems seem pretty good on paper too.
Heck, one of the stratagems turns the soulburst into always-on once you kill the enemy warlord, as if it wasn't already desirable enough to do so.
I'm waiting for someone to try that with some custards in an army for some sgoulder the mantal shenanigans.
I was originally upset, and almost wasn’t gonna grab this white dwarf.. then I decided to pull my head out of my rear and I’m gonna get it and begin trying a few things. I think skyweavers and Spears will shine in this. As well as wraith constructs, and scorpions.
BoomWolf wrote: Soulburst took a pipe to the back of the head...
But the warlord traits and relics are seriously a step ahead of everyone else's, the spells are pretty good and the stratagems seem pretty good on paper too.
Heck, one of the stratagems turns the soulburst into always-on once you kill the enemy warlord, as if it wasn't already desirable enough to do so.
I'm waiting for someone to try that with some custards in an army for some sgoulder the mantal shenanigans.
I was originally upset, and almost wasn’t gonna grab this white dwarf.. then I decided to pull my head out of my rear and I’m gonna get it and begin trying a few things. I think skyweavers and Spears will shine in this. As well as wraith constructs, and scorpions.
Was this 180 prior or after reading how the FAQ affected other lists?
BoomWolf wrote: Soulburst took a pipe to the back of the head...
But the warlord traits and relics are seriously a step ahead of everyone else's, the spells are pretty good and the stratagems seem pretty good on paper too.
Heck, one of the stratagems turns the soulburst into always-on once you kill the enemy warlord, as if it wasn't already desirable enough to do so.
I'm waiting for someone to try that with some custards in an army for some sgoulder the mantal shenanigans.
I was originally upset, and almost wasn’t gonna grab this white dwarf.. then I decided to pull my head out of my rear and I’m gonna get it and begin trying a few things. I think skyweavers and Spears will shine in this. As well as wraith constructs, and scorpions.
Was this 180 prior or after reading how the FAQ affected other lists?
After. It was nice to see GW was not just bullying aeldari units and that they were looking at everything with an unfair combination/advantage. It was also somewhat started prior by a few friends from my LGS. They urged me to look deeper into units that would actually benefit greatly from the more melee oriented version. There are a few things that still assist shooting, such as ancestors grace which is basically guide for ynnari. Since we can no longer increase our fire efficiency by 100%, might as well do it 33%. It also has the melee version of doom which will be decent for still skyweavers but also great for shining spears. But regarding when it happened doesn’t really matter.
Well, what looks interesting is the possibility to include The Yncare into a CW/Drukhari/Harlie army.
This guy is really annoying. My opponents could sing a song here.
wuestenfux wrote: Well, what looks interesting is the possibility to include The Yncare into a CW/Drukhari/Harlie army.
This guy is really annoying. My opponents could sing a song here.
Thats pretty much the one thing I'm getting out of this, the Yncarne (overpriced though he is) and Yvraine will see use in Craftworld, Drukhari and Harlequin lists as extra Psychic offence and defence or another beatstick but thats about it.
wuestenfux wrote: Well, what looks interesting is the possibility to include The Yncare into a CW/Drukhari/Harlie army.
This guy is really annoying. My opponents could sing a song here.
Thats pretty much the one thing I'm getting out of this, the Yncarne (overpriced though he is) and Yvraine will see use in Craftworld, Drukhari and Harlequin lists as extra Psychic offence and defence or another beatstick but thats about it.
Not sure about Yvraine since ''Word of the Phönix'' changed so much.
But The Yncarne is so annoying that each time my opponents almost get a paroxysm.
wuestenfux wrote: Well, what looks interesting is the possibility to include The Yncare into a CW/Drukhari/Harlie army.
This guy is really annoying. My opponents could sing a song here.
Thats pretty much the one thing I'm getting out of this, the Yncarne (overpriced though he is) and Yvraine will see use in Craftworld, Drukhari and Harlequin lists as extra Psychic offence and defence or another beatstick but thats about it.
Not sure about Yvraine since ''Word of the Phönix'' changed so much.
But The Yncarne is so annoying that each time my opponents almost get a paroxysm.
Mind me asking how you utilize him, battle role wise
Mind me asking how you utilize him, battle role wise
My Eldar army is normally shooty. So I don't mind leaving him in reserve.
He appears as soon as a unit dies, either in my front lines or behind enemy lines.
Then the fun begins. When a unit dies he can immediately reposition.
If you play it smart, he can wreck havoc.
Elfric wrote: So 9 pages in and everyone thinks Ynarri are the new Grey Knights? Maybe someone could tell me who will win LVO 2020
Honestly the only good thing is the future is completely up in the air. It really feels like nearly every top level game plan took some kind of hit.
This is what I like.Getting the Ynnari change and the FAQ changes (what were they smoking..."minor changes", lol) is like resetting the clock, so many things to think about and what I want to run this year in regards to competitive play.
‘Corsairs: So long as your Warlord is Aeldari, you
can include this unit in a Patrol, Battalion, or Outrider
Detachment even if that Detachment contains no HQ units. However, if you do so, that Detachment’s Command
Benefits are changed to ‘None’.’
Bharring wrote: "So, is this the greatest nerf in 40k history?"
Squats.
Or, for armies still playable, Corsairs.
Corsairs are legally playable?
I thought they got gutted into oblivion so hard they are left with 1 HQ and 1 troop?
If so wouldn't DKoK, Renegades and Heretics aswell as Elysians be then?.
My reasoning for selecting Corsairs was mostly familiar, as I'm not sure if the following applies to other factions.
The 'nerf' was the BattleBrothers nerf. Before that, while there were only a couple units, you could put those units in an Aeldari detatchment - along with CWE, DE, or Harlies. Post-nerf, the only detatchment you could field with them was Aux.
I wasn't sure if we should consider "conversion to the new edition" to be a "nerf". If so, LOTD win; there was no way to play a solo LOTD "army" that wouldn't auto-lose, as nothing could be on the table T1.
Bharring wrote: "So, is this the greatest nerf in 40k history?"
Or, for armies still playable, Corsairs.
Too soon, man. Is it too much to ask that if we only have troop units, they at least do what troops are supposed to do? (Generate Command Points and be Objective Secured.)
Mind me asking how you utilize him, battle role wise
My Eldar army is normally shooty. So I don't mind leaving him in reserve.
He appears as soon as a unit dies, either in my front lines or behind enemy lines.
Then the fun begins. When a unit dies he can immediately reposition.
If you play it smart, he can wreck havoc.
Why would you want him in reserve ?
You can deploy him like normal unit after the previous FAQ.
Mind me asking how you utilize him, battle role wise
My Eldar army is normally shooty. So I don't mind leaving him in reserve.
He appears as soon as a unit dies, either in my front lines or behind enemy lines.
Then the fun begins. When a unit dies he can immediately reposition.
If you play it smart, he can wreck havoc.
Why would you want him in reserve ?
You can deploy him like normal unit after the previous FAQ.
Mind me asking how you utilize him, battle role wise
My Eldar army is normally shooty. So I don't mind leaving him in reserve.
He appears as soon as a unit dies, either in my front lines or behind enemy lines.
Then the fun begins. When a unit dies he can immediately reposition.
If you play it smart, he can wreck havoc.
Better to deploy him on the table so that if an opportunity arrives to get him into combat turn 2 you can take it. He's a lot of fun and can be very killy, but 337pts is a lot for him, especially when you consider the new Slaanesh Daemon Prince gets 8 + 8D3 attacks, is an equaly capable Psyker and has better aura's all for 210 or so points.
Mind me asking how you utilize him, battle role wise
My Eldar army is normally shooty. So I don't mind leaving him in reserve.
He appears as soon as a unit dies, either in my front lines or behind enemy lines.
Then the fun begins. When a unit dies he can immediately reposition.
If you play it smart, he can wreck havoc.
Better to deploy him on the table so that if an opportunity arrives to get him into combat turn 2 you can take it. He's a lot of fun and can be very killy, but 337pts is a lot for him, especially when you consider the new Slaanesh Daemon Prince gets 8 + 8D3 attacks, is an equaly capable Psyker and has better aura's all for 210 or so points.
KoS is 260.
Yncarne has character protection, 3+/4++, can heal, and grants morale immunity. I'd say it is close to a proper cost, but a tad too high.
Cheeslord wrote: Sorry, don't have time to go through the entire thread. Has anyone started a chorus of "Ding! Dong! The witch is dead!" yet?
Mark.
It's more "Ding! Dong! The witch has been moderately reduced in power to what most crones schooled in the occult arts should be, leveling the playing field.
Dorthy and her cowards (Marines), brainless (Grey Knights), and heartless (Necron) lackies are still no match for her - unless they get really lucky."
Cheeslord wrote: Sorry, don't have time to go through the entire thread. Has anyone started a chorus of "Ding! Dong! The witch is dead!" yet?
Mark.
Well, I'll be TFG...
Don't do that.
While they needed to be brought down in power, and some kind of sense made of them, a lot of people spent money on those models as well as their time investing in their preparation and play. It's ok to be thankful for the changes, but don't taunt or take pleasure in someone else's frustration at the change. It's just petty.
I am glad they changed the Castellan, Doom, and Jinx, (as an Aledari and Blood Angels player) but I'm not going to laugh in their face or make snide comments about the frustration that these changes have caused people who have bought those models.
Daedalus81 wrote: Yncarne has character protection, 3+/4++, can heal, and grants morale immunity. I'd say it is close to a proper cost, but a tad too high.
Agreed 337pts is ok, but I will always be annoyed at uneven points like this. I get the "7" is a thing with Ynnead, but points values that are not in increments of 5 at just inconvenient. 297pts would probably be better though, because it still have the "7" GW seems to want, and we can just assume it to be an even 300pts
I like how you preface your post this way and then go on to state the least TFG comment you can. Very reasonable attitude, we need more of that. I for one wanted Ynnari toned down, but more importantly cleaned up. And while I am glad I no longer need to consider Ynnari as a CWE player, I think GW went too far. At the very least, there should have been Strats to allow shoot twice or fight twice. Other armies have those
Dunno. 337 was a big ask for the Yncarne when it could fight twice.
People like Sean Nayden made it work and it was certainly "tournament worthy", but taking the Yncarne wasn't really the no-brainer Ynnari list of Reapers and Spears with Yvraine that caused the most grief.
Having it's damage output essentially halved at the same point cost, to me, doesn't bode well for seeing more Yncarne miniatures on the table in the future.
Sunny Side Up wrote: Dunno. 337 was a big ask for the Yncarne when it could fight twice.
People like Sean Nayden made it work and it was certainly "tournament worthy", but taking the Yncarne wasn't really the no-brainer Ynnari list of Reapers and Spears with Yvraine that caused the most grief.
Having it's damage output essentially halved at the same point cost, to me, doesn't bode well for seeing more Yncarne miniatures on the table in the future.
It's only halved if you weren't using your fight twice soul burst elsewhere (which, let's be honest, you probably were). It's a bit of a downgrade, but for the way most people used the Yncarne not much has changed except better psychic powers and fight first. It's a situational nerf, sure, but also a situational buff. Looks pretty much like a wash to me. Will I be taking it anymore? Maybe, depends on what the rest of the list ends up like.
Sunny Side Up wrote: Dunno. 337 was a big ask for the Yncarne when it could fight twice.
People like Sean Nayden made it work and it was certainly "tournament worthy", but taking the Yncarne wasn't really the no-brainer Ynnari list of Reapers and Spears with Yvraine that caused the most grief.
Having it's damage output essentially halved at the same point cost, to me, doesn't bode well for seeing more Yncarne miniatures on the table in the future.
Not being able to Soulburst into combat after teleporting is the real nerf to it. I played mine in all my ITC games and its only of my favorite models, now IDK if i will even play it that often.
I'll still play Ynnari for sure, i might like it better now (more fun) but Yncarne? Hmm i'll try it a few times to make sure first.
Sunny Side Up wrote: Dunno. 337 was a big ask for the Yncarne when it could fight twice.
People like Sean Nayden made it work and it was certainly "tournament worthy", but taking the Yncarne wasn't really the no-brainer Ynnari list of Reapers and Spears with Yvraine that caused the most grief.
Having it's damage output essentially halved at the same point cost, to me, doesn't bode well for seeing more Yncarne miniatures on the table in the future.
Not being able to Soulburst into combat after teleporting is the real nerf to it. I played mine in all my ITC games and its only of my favorite models, now IDK if i will even play it that often.
I'll still play Ynnari for sure, i might like it better now (more fun) but Yncarne? Hmm i'll try it a few times to make sure first.
Seabass wrote: While they needed to be brought down in power, and some kind of sense made of them, a lot of people spent money on those models as well as their time investing in their preparation and play. It's ok to be thankful for the changes, but don't taunt or take pleasure in someone else's frustration at the change. It's just petty.
The Germans call it schadenfreude. I think some people are just taking a victory lap for all the times Eldar players on these boards righteously insisted to everyone there was nothing wrong with Ynnari, Soulburst, Strength From Death, etc, despite fairly obvious data to the contrary. Of course, the same could be said about the Castellan, it's just more fun to kick skinnies.
Seabass wrote: While they needed to be brought down in power, and some kind of sense made of them, a lot of people spent money on those models as well as their time investing in their preparation and play. It's ok to be thankful for the changes, but don't taunt or take pleasure in someone else's frustration at the change. It's just petty.
The Germans call it schadenfreude. I think some people are just taking a victory lap for all the times Eldar players on these boards righteously insisted to everyone there was nothing wrong with Ynnari, Soulburst, Strength From Death, etc, despite fairly obvious data to the contrary. Of course, the same could be said about the Castellan, it's just more fun to kick skinnies.
I guess my point, really, is that this is a game. Be civil and enjoy the game, don't take victory laps when one army gets hit or models get nerfed. people put work into this to enjoy it. Sure, be thankful, but don't "schadenfreude" (TIL what schadenfreude is)
be good to each other my dudes.
I'm a Child Protective Services agent. I see ugliness in this world non-stop. Trust me, take the time to enjoy the game and the escape, and be cool to each other.
Seabass wrote: I guess my point, really, is that this is a game. Be civil and enjoy the game, don't take victory laps when one army gets hit or models get nerfed. people put work into this to enjoy it. Sure, be thankful, but don't "schadenfreude" (TIL what schadenfreude is)
You can be civil and still revel in the exposure of confirmation bias. Tyrants fall, people cheer, nothing wrong with that.
Seabass wrote: While they needed to be brought down in power, and some kind of sense made of them, a lot of people spent money on those models as well as their time investing in their preparation and play. It's ok to be thankful for the changes, but don't taunt or take pleasure in someone else's frustration at the change. It's just petty.
The Germans call it schadenfreude. I think some people are just taking a victory lap for all the times Eldar players on these boards righteously insisted to everyone there was nothing wrong with Ynnari, Soulburst, Strength From Death, etc, despite fairly obvious data to the contrary. Of course, the same could be said about the Castellan, it's just more fun to kick skinnies.
Yeah there were SOO many eldar players who argued that ynnari, soulburst and SFD were fine...there definitely were not a ton of eldar players mad about the units that they used getting nerfed because of the twisted monstrosity of rules design that was Ynnari...
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah there were SOO many eldar players who argued that ynnari, soulburst and SFD were fine...there definitely were not a ton of eldar players mad about the units that they used getting nerfed because of the twisted monstrosity of rules design that was Ynnari...
I remember the complaining. I don't recall the attribution of cause though. I certainly don't remember *any* of them advocating such a complete rework for Ynnari rules as what we've seen.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah there were SOO many eldar players who argued that ynnari, soulburst and SFD were fine...there definitely were not a ton of eldar players mad about the units that they used getting nerfed because of the twisted monstrosity of rules design that was Ynnari...
I remember the complaining. I don't recall the attribution of cause though. I certainly don't remember *any* of them advocating such a complete rework for Ynnari rules as what we've seen.
"Ynnari need a ground-up redesign" has been a pretty consistent response from Eldar players whenever people call for nerfs or there have been nerfs to dark reapers, shining spears, or changes to make Soulburst more awkward to use, of which there have been plenty.
The first conversation I had with an eldar player in 8th edition was them complaining about how anyone without a nail through their head could look at Battlefocus and Soulburst and say "these look pretty equivalent."
Eldar players like Ynnari the same way Space Marine players like Primaris Marines: A bunch of new mary-sues shoved down everyone's throat with rules you'd have to be purposefully trying to lose to not use, with models that don't really work with any of the existing eldar ranges that they decided to give us instead of the many, MANY outdated models or characters without models that everyone would have loved to see.
Hey we could have given you an eldar triumvirate with like Asuryan, Vect and Iyanna but instead here's this new slaanesh daemon. Just shove it into your army! It's great! Look at how he's shattering all these spirit stones on his base! Your eldar are cool but shouldn't they be a suicide cult instead?
Naw, ynnari can go over here, in a little box, totally separated from Eldar of all kinds and completely removed from tournament-level balance decisions. Please and thank you.
Seabass wrote: While they needed to be brought down in power, and some kind of sense made of them, a lot of people spent money on those models as well as their time investing in their preparation and play. It's ok to be thankful for the changes, but don't taunt or take pleasure in someone else's frustration at the change. It's just petty.
The Germans call it schadenfreude. I think some people are just taking a victory lap for all the times Eldar players on these boards righteously insisted to everyone there was nothing wrong with Ynnari, Soulburst, Strength From Death, etc, despite fairly obvious data to the contrary. Of course, the same could be said about the Castellan, it's just more fun to kick skinnies.
I guess my point, really, is that this is a game. Be civil and enjoy the game, don't take victory laps when one army gets hit or models get nerfed. people put work into this to enjoy it. Sure, be thankful, but don't "schadenfreude" (TIL what schadenfreude is)
be good to each other my dudes.
I'm a Child Protective Services agent. I see ugliness in this world non-stop. Trust me, take the time to enjoy the game and the escape, and be cool to each other.
Naah let them do it. Others will then learn who are the kind of people you want to be and don't want to be with.
Mind me asking how you utilize him, battle role wise
My Eldar army is normally shooty. So I don't mind leaving him in reserve.
He appears as soon as a unit dies, either in my front lines or behind enemy lines.
Then the fun begins. When a unit dies he can immediately reposition.
If you play it smart, he can wreck havoc.
Better to deploy him on the table so that if an opportunity arrives to get him into combat turn 2 you can take it. He's a lot of fun and can be very killy, but 337pts is a lot for him, especially when you consider the new Slaanesh Daemon Prince gets 8 + 8D3 attacks, is an equaly capable Psyker and has better aura's all for 210 or so points.
KoS is 260.
Yncarne has character protection, 3+/4++, can heal, and grants morale immunity. I'd say it is close to a proper cost, but a tad too high.
Syll'Eske is not a Keep of Secrets but a Daemon Prince/Herald combo and only costs about 210 (can't remeber the exact figure but it's not much more than that).
Thanks to the way it's teleporting ability works, which is what makes it useful and gets into combat, it rarely gets to benefit from character protection when it goes on the attack. It's ability to heal requires other Aeldari models nearby to die first, which is only going to be the case half the time, as a Monster it can't be targeted by Word of the Phoenix for healing and more often than not Aeldari units couldn't care less about moral.
Syll'Eske and the Yncarne fill a similar role (not really a surprise given the Yncarne was initially envisaged as a Slaaneshi Daemon Prince) as beatstick characters but the Yncarne only gets 6 S6 attacks with random damage, but re-roll all failed wounds, vs the 8 S8 attacks with flat 3 damage and 8D3 S5 attacks. SE is without doubt better at the same role for less points, the Yncarne needs to come down to at least 270 before it can be properly considered a competitive option.
TwinPoleTheory wrote: I certainly don't remember *any* of them advocating such a complete rework for Ynnari rules as what we've seen.
Goldfish memory?
But yeah, when people advocated for complete reworking of Ynnari, they did not propose lazy copypasta of Slaaneshi rule and light elfs stratagems ending up worse than any other elf monocodex.
Imateria wrote: Syll'Eske is not a Keep of Secrets but a Daemon Prince/Herald combo and only costs about 210 (can't remeber the exact figure but it's not much more than that).
Thanks to the way it's teleporting ability works, which is what makes it useful and gets into combat, it rarely gets to benefit from character protection when it goes on the attack. It's ability to heal requires other Aeldari models nearby to die first, which is only going to be the case half the time, as a Monster it can't be targeted by Word of the Phoenix for healing and more often than not Aeldari units couldn't care less about moral.
Syll'Eske and the Yncarne fill a similar role (not really a surprise given the Yncarne was initially envisaged as a Slaaneshi Daemon Prince) as beatstick characters but the Yncarne only gets 6 S6 attacks with random damage, but re-roll all failed wounds, vs the 8 S8 attacks with flat 3 damage and 8D3 S5 attacks. SE is without doubt better at the same role for less points, the Yncarne needs to come down to at least 270 before it can be properly considered a competitive option.
Yea, that's a fair point.
Yncarne is more durable (consider the healing) and casts an extra power. I personally prefer flat 3 damage, but it does seem GW values D6 damage more. They overvalue his/her warping ability too, I think.
Imateria wrote: Syll'Eske is not a Keep of Secrets but a Daemon Prince/Herald combo and only costs about 210 (can't remeber the exact figure but it's not much more than that).
Thanks to the way it's teleporting ability works, which is what makes it useful and gets into combat, it rarely gets to benefit from character protection when it goes on the attack. It's ability to heal requires other Aeldari models nearby to die first, which is only going to be the case half the time, as a Monster it can't be targeted by Word of the Phoenix for healing and more often than not Aeldari units couldn't care less about moral.
Syll'Eske and the Yncarne fill a similar role (not really a surprise given the Yncarne was initially envisaged as a Slaaneshi Daemon Prince) as beatstick characters but the Yncarne only gets 6 S6 attacks with random damage, but re-roll all failed wounds, vs the 8 S8 attacks with flat 3 damage and 8D3 S5 attacks. SE is without doubt better at the same role for less points, the Yncarne needs to come down to at least 270 before it can be properly considered a competitive option.
Yea, that's a fair point.
Yncarne is more durable (consider the healing) and casts an extra power. I personally prefer flat 3 damage, but it does seem GW values D6 damage more. They overvalue his/her warping ability too, I think.
The Yncarne is certianly more durable due to the 3+/4++/6+++, compared to the base 5++ of Syll'Eske (don't know what it's Sv is), but both have 9 wounds and can cast 2, deny 1. I'm also not particualrly familiar with the Daemons codex so I don't know what buffs are available to him, but I've seen several mentions of a Psychic Power that could boost it to a 4++ and a warlord trait that could give it an extra 3" move (for a 12" move), whilst the Yncarne's warlord trait is +1S and A.
Don't get me wrong, I think the Yncarne has some good rules and I'll defintiely be seeing how it works out in my lists but I don't he's worth 337pts when there are several other combat monsters out there (notably Daemon Princes and Hive Tyrants) who are just as lethal if not more so for less points.
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Shadenuat wrote: Avatar of Khaine with his 5 attacks: am I a joke to you?
No, 220pts is the joke, just that nobody's laughing.
Dont compare to Hive Tyrants as they are more than 10 wounds, compare Yncane to a Broodlord... he is almost as killy for less than 1/2 the points and has Powers and Character protection, just not the survivability, also can DS. For 115pts he is a monster.
He is S5, 6 attacks, -3ap D3, re-roll all wounds, wounds of a 6 are -6ap for Flat 3 damage, 4+/5++ save, chance Run and charge, with 8" movement, re-roll hits of 1 aura. he is less damage yes, but you get 2 of them for 230pts.. lol almost gets you 3 of the, (345pts) So 3 Broodlords or 1 Yncarne?
Yeah.. compare that to Yncarne. The Yncarne needs to be 280pts IMO.
The Yncarne is certianly more durable due to the 3+/4++/6+++, compared to the base 5++ of Syll'Eske (don't know what it's Sv is), but both have 9 wounds and can cast 2, deny 1. I'm also not particualrly familiar with the Daemons codex so I don't know what buffs are available to him, but I've seen several mentions of a Psychic Power that could boost it to a 4++ and a warlord trait that could give it an extra 3" move (for a 12" move), whilst the Yncarne's warlord trait is +1S and A.
Don't get me wrong, I think the Yncarne has some good rules and I'll defintiely be seeing how it works out in my lists but I don't he's worth 337pts when there are several other combat monsters out there (notably Daemon Princes and Hive Tyrants) who are just as lethal if not more so for less points.
Syll'Eske is W8 4+/5++ and casts only one. The 4++ is a stratagem.
With +1S Yncarne is at a pretty ok spot since the weapon rerolls to wound.
We both agree it should come down in points, but probably not by how much.
But yeah, when people advocated for complete reworking of Ynnari, they did not propose lazy copypasta of Slaaneshi rule and light elfs stratagems ending up worse than any other elf monocodex.
Not at all. The moment you mentioned Soulburst actions becoming stratagems instead of an army trait it was like proposing 5 point Guardsmen. Very few players, if any, actually proposed removing Soulburst actions entirely, because, reasons or some other disingenuous, self-serving drivel.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah there were SOO many eldar players who argued that ynnari, soulburst and SFD were fine...there definitely were not a ton of eldar players mad about the units that they used getting nerfed because of the twisted monstrosity of rules design that was Ynnari...
I remember the complaining. I don't recall the attribution of cause though. I certainly don't remember *any* of them advocating such a complete rework for Ynnari rules as what we've seen.
"Ynnari need a ground-up redesign" has been a pretty consistent response from Eldar players whenever people call for nerfs or there have been nerfs to dark reapers, shining spears, or changes to make Soulburst more awkward to use, of which there have been plenty.
The first conversation I had with an eldar player in 8th edition was them complaining about how anyone without a nail through their head could look at Battlefocus and Soulburst and say "these look pretty equivalent."
Eldar players like Ynnari the same way Space Marine players like Primaris Marines: A bunch of new mary-sues shoved down everyone's throat with rules you'd have to be purposefully trying to lose to not use, with models that don't really work with any of the existing eldar ranges that they decided to give us instead of the many, MANY outdated models or characters without models that everyone would have loved to see.
Hey we could have given you an eldar triumvirate with like Asuryan, Vect and Iyanna but instead here's this new slaanesh daemon. Just shove it into your army! It's great! Look at how he's shattering all these spirit stones on his base! Your eldar are cool but shouldn't they be a suicide cult instead?
Naw, ynnari can go over here, in a little box, totally separated from Eldar of all kinds and completely removed from tournament-level balance decisions. Please and thank you.
The first conversation I had with another player about 8th was about 17ppm was totally fair for each Dire Avenger, because Ynnari.
(TIL what schadenfreude is)
