This question came up again and now that the edition is a lot older I want everyone's opinion. At the moment a Big shoota on an ork boy is 5pts and puts out ranged 36 Assault 3 S5 shots hitting on 5+. All of this on an infantry platform with T4 and a 6+ save that wants to be advancing most turns to get into charge range and for the most part the rest of the unit is armed with a pistol OR a ranged 18 assault 2 weapon. So the argument I have seen most frequently is comparing a Big Shoota not to a Heavy bolter, but instead to a Stormbolter, and of course, now that the Stormbolter has effectively doubled its shot output with the new bolter rule its an even better comparison. The Stormbolter is a 2pt upgrade which puts out 4 S4 shots at 24' hitting on 3s. So 1 more shot at 2/3rds the range and 1 less strength, however it hits twice as often. A Big Shoota will hit about 1 shot a turn compared to a Storm bolters 2.6.
So the argument boils down to what is the appropriate cost for this weapon. I would argue its somewhere between 1 and 2pts but definitely not any higher due to how poor its performance in general is. Another apt comparison is the Adeptus Mechanicus Cognis Heavy Stubber which is a Heavy 3 Range 36 S4 weapon that hits on 3s. This does very comparable damage to a Big shoota, however its 2pts not 5.
A Stormbolter Vs T4 model with a 4+ save ends up doing .66 dmg A Cognis Heavy Stubber does .5 but at 33% more range
A Big Shoota does .33 at the same range as the Stubber.
Caveat being I don't know orks. Is the bg shoota only going on boys or does it go on other things as well?
I think one of the problems with balancing points is when you price a piece of war gear in a vacuum i.e. Not taking account what its going on within the codex. E.g. Should a heavy weapon going on a T3 squaddie cost the same as an equivalent weapon going on a T8 war machine with lots of wounds, a better BS and an invuln?
The whole unit is 7 points in Kill Team (Ork Gunner 7pts, Big Shoota 0 points). A game that penalizes ranged attacks to hit with range and cover. At the same time, Special/Heavy weapons are generally under cost. Just the same, I often take a Ork Gunner with a Big Shoota or two since they are only an extra point over a regular boy and I use the Clan Kultur: Bad Moons. I think that is an acceptable price in Kill Team.
Not knowing Orks in full 40k, I would say the weapon Big Shoota is probably worth about 3-5 points of the top of my head. Unlike in Kill Team, Orks won't be hitting on 6 more often than not and the Big Shoota can't be directly targeted having a bunch of Boyz soaking damage to keep it on the table. I also imagine the Bad Moons Clan Kultur works a lot better in full 40k if Orks have pretty much the same Stratagems equilvents to Kill Team tactics.
Big Shootaz are probably priced fine for most units that take them. They just don't work well in a Boy Blob. Maximum of 3 in a 30 man unit just isn't enough firepower to be worth the 15pt pricetag. Not when the rest of the unit is trying to Move and Advance to get into range with its guns, or into charging range, anyway. I think the best solution would be to make them an upgrade every model in the Mob could take. Even at 5 points a pop. That'd be 360 points for 30 Boyz who can throw out 90 S5 shots at 36", hitting on 5s (4s with Freebooterz Trait procced, or rerolling 1s with Badmoons). A lot of dice, but certainly not broken for the pricetag, and especially fragile on a T4, 6+ chassis.
SemperMortis wrote: This question came up again and now that the edition is a lot older I want everyone's opinion. At the moment a Big shoota on an ork boy is 5pts and puts out ranged 36 Assault 3 S5 shots hitting on 5+. All of this on an infantry platform with T4 and a 6+ save that wants to be advancing most turns to get into charge range and for the most part the rest of the unit is armed with a pistol OR a ranged 18 assault 2 weapon. So the argument I have seen most frequently is comparing a Big Shoota not to a Heavy bolter, but instead to a Stormbolter, and of course, now that the Stormbolter has effectively doubled its shot output with the new bolter rule its an even better comparison. The Stormbolter is a 2pt upgrade which puts out 4 S4 shots at 24' hitting on 3s. So 1 more shot at 2/3rds the range and 1 less strength, however it hits twice as often. A Big Shoota will hit about 1 shot a turn compared to a Storm bolters 2.6.
So the argument boils down to what is the appropriate cost for this weapon. I would argue its somewhere between 1 and 2pts but definitely not any higher due to how poor its performance in general is. Another apt comparison is the Adeptus Mechanicus Cognis Heavy Stubber which is a Heavy 3 Range 36 S4 weapon that hits on 3s. This does very comparable damage to a Big shoota, however its 2pts not 5.
A Stormbolter Vs T4 model with a 4+ save ends up doing .66 dmg A Cognis Heavy Stubber does .5 but at 33% more range
A Big Shoota does .33 at the same range as the Stubber.
The Storm Bolter didn't double it's shooting. The Storm- (Hurricane- , Combi-, etc) bolter on the tanks didn't get Beta Bolter. Beta Bolter - as it's aimed at Bikes/Dreads/Infantry - is designed to boost the Cost-Benefit of the Marine, not the storm bolter. Which isn't to say the Big Shoota may or may not be overpriced, just that Beta Bolter isn't the stick to beat that point home with. Beta Bolter might be a stick to beat home the idea boys carrying Big Shootas should get a Beta Big Shoota rule.
The Cognis Heavy Stubber hits on 3's? It's heavy, does that include when it moves and fires?
I know Big Shootas show up on the Jets, the Killa Kans, and I don't know what else. The Big Shoota is Assault for an Assaulty unit not Rapid Fire for a Maybe Assaulty Unit, not that Rapid Fire prevents assault anymore though there is still an assault phase interaction, and that may be a remnant causing the overcosting - if it is overcosted - and should be taken into consideration.
Grots get Surprisingly Dangerous in Large Numbers. Do any units that can take Big Shootas get a similar rule for the shooting phase that could affect Big Shoota output? Which also doesn't mean the price is right, just that if it isn't the solution might not be the price but a rule for boyz mobs with big shootas, or a price change, and/or a rule change for the other units to make up for a price change.
The Auto Bolt Rifle is 24" A2 S4 AP0 and 1 point. So IF the Auto Bolt Rifle is priced correctly (and it's probably not, especially after Beta Bolter applying to the only units that can take it) 1 point for a Big Shoota would be low.
The problem is that you are trying to price things up via comparison with other codexs, this doesn't work.
Listing that an ork has poor balistic skill and a T-shirt save as reasons for their equipment costing less than a space marines similar equipment doesn't really work. The space marine has already paid a high cost for his BS and armour and shouldn't then have to pay an additional cost for a gun just by having them.
No one knows what formular GW uses to cost stuff (if they do at all) but it likely includes some sort of flavour modifier.
What I mean by that is that things that fit the flavour of an army are likely easier for them to get hold of. I.E. Tau close combat options are limited and expensive but the same thing in Chaos could be priced more competitively.
Similarly for Orks, their ranged option are likely to not be costed the same as guard equipment.
A better way to get a fair price for a big shoota (if you think they are to costly atm - as I do) is to compare it to other options in the same codex that you do think are competitively priced.
Lets say a Kustom Shoota at 2pts, I think that's a fair price point, a big shoota is certainly better than that, perhaps twice as good so 4pts would seem pretty fair.
Remember the pricing model where you pay the same points no matter which model takes the weapon means that some option are far less attractive on certain units. The big shoota with its excellent range isn't too useful on a boys unit that is heading for the enemy but on a fire support battle wagon they are much better.
Maybe 0pts? I dont see it adding much value, so maybe 2pts or similar would be fair, but in the grand scheme such a tiny cost just seems redundant. If it's free you either take it, ignore it or pay the points to get something wich can make a dent in things (like rokkits or kmb)
Argive wrote: E.g. Should a heavy weapon going on a T3 squaddie cost the same as an equivalent weapon going on a T8 war machine with lots of wounds, a better BS and an invuln?
Big shoota is basically the default hull gun on most vehicles, like trukk, battlewagon, planes, buggies and walkers. Koptas and kanz can have dedicated big shoota units, but neither sees a lot of play even with It's basically the ork version of the heavy stubber. A few of those have grot gunners to make them hit on 4+, but all of them would be better off by just dropping the shootas and costing less points. Big shoota are basically a tax to tone down units like nauts or scrapjets in exchange for some random shooting.
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Breton wrote: Grots get Surprisingly Dangerous in Large Numbers. Do any units that can take Big Shootas get a similar rule for the shooting phase that could affect Big Shoota output? Which also doesn't mean the price is right, just that if it isn't the solution might not be the price but a rule for boyz mobs with big shootas, or a price change, and/or a rule change for the other units to make up for a price change.
4+ on the two bommers, scrapjet, boomdakka snazzwagon and kanz. 5+ everywhere else.
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WisdomLS wrote: What I mean by that is that things that fit the flavour of an army are likely easier for them to get hold of. I.E. Tau close combat options are limited and expensive but the same thing in Chaos could be priced more competitively.
Similarly for Orks, their ranged option are likely to not be costed the same as guard equipment.
Orks are a combined arms army, a big shoota should be costed in a way that it makes sense to take it in a mob of shoota boyz or on a battlewagon.
A better way to get a fair price for a big shoota (if you think they are to costly atm - as I do) is to compare it to other options in the same codex that you do think are competitively priced.
Lets say a Kustom Shoota at 2pts, I think that's a fair price point, a big shoota is certainly better than that, perhaps twice as good so 4pts would seem pretty fair.
A kustom shoota is better than a big shoota... how did you get the idea it would be the other way around? It also sees next to no play outside of sinking those last 3 points somewhere.
Remember the pricing model where you pay the same points no matter which model takes the weapon means that some option are far less attractive on certain units. The big shoota with its excellent range isn't too useful on a boys unit that is heading for the enemy but on a fire support battle wagon they are much better.
They are terrible everywhere, especially on those fire support battlewagons - their main gun has 24" range, I'd put 4 kustom shootas on them, but not 4 big shootas.
Big shoota is one of the best examples of why pointing things the same across the board is a terrible idea. A big shoots for 5 points on a vehicle is a no brainer (always load battlewagos w/4 unless you are really needing to cut points), sure load it up as many as will fit. they work great on deffkoptas too (TL variety) but on boyz they make no sense at 5 points. you need the boys advancing and so hitting on 6's, they giv eup the bonus attack from a choppa making them worse in close combat and for 10 points (cost of 2 guns) over 2 normal boyz you average 1 hit. it could be a free option for boyz and I still wouldn't take it.
I never take any on my battlewagons. Those 20 points can buy me so many other things which actually do something...
Koptas usually use KMB because they are cheaper than big shootas.
Also keep in mind that dakkaguns are free, despite having the same shoots at half range.
Jidmah wrote: I never take any on my battlewagons. Those 20 points can buy me so many other things which actually do something...
Koptas usually use KMB because they are cheaper than big shootas.
Also keep in mind that dakkaguns are free, despite having the same shoots at half range.
Exactly, its price is especially egregious on vehicles like Battlewagons and Trukks since they are effectively useless as far as damage output goes. Not to mention a Battlewagon prefers being in CC with a deffrolla over shooting ineffectually with guns, so it just makes them even more redundant.
Like I mentioned in the Ork thread, for it to cost the same points as it is now, we would need to up the fire rate to at least Assault 4-5 or give it AP-1 to give it some actual staying power as a weapon. Otherwise it definitely needs to be 1-2 points for it to be considered an actual choice to take for units. Someone mentioned earlier being able to take more big shootas per unit for guys like Boyz squads makes sense, maybe make it so for every 10 you can take 2 big shootas instead? 6 big shootas would actually do something in a big shoota bad moon mob that tellyported into dakka range.
Jidmah wrote: I never take any on my battlewagons. Those 20 points can buy me so many other things which actually do something...
Koptas usually use KMB because they are cheaper than big shootas.
Also keep in mind that dakkaguns are free, despite having the same shoots at half range.
depends on the lists. I use vehicle heavy lists, modified battlewagon bash with dual choppa nobz and gretchin inside alongside biekr boss, wartrike, kbb, shokkjump and scrapjet.
I need the shootas for chaff clearing to get the layers of screens removed to get the nobz and vehicles deeper in, often the kbb punches the hole and big shootas knock out the last few emmebrs of guardsmen to get to that layer 2 /shrug going to vary by meta but I often have 3-4 layers of bubblewrap to deal with.
That's a very specific scenario though.
If it works for you, great, but I'd rather change up the list to get something with better chaff clearing in than a battlewagon with gretchin inside, like a Gorkanaut, another buggy or Warbikers.
In any case, a battlewagon with 4 big shootas will not be winning any tournaments, even if they were free
Jidmah wrote: That's a very specific scenario though.
If it works for you, great, but I'd rather change up the list to get something with better chaff clearing in than a battlewagon with gretchin inside, like a Gorkanaut, another buggy or Warbikers.
In any case, a battlewagon with 4 big shootas will not be winning any tournaments, even if they were free
yea, everythign is meta specific.
my tournament level list does nto have any normal wagons, though it does have bone breakers and a gorkanaught.
It is my take all comers beer a pretzels level list, not too Waac or too casual to be useless. works well for any mission rolled for but not designed with ITC missions in mind.
On a vehicle I think a big shoota is "fair" as in average for what it does compared to other options across multiple books. to be a "good" choice it would need improvments. it is odd that a cheaper kustom shoota is better and cheaper.
Though even in competitive lists I run a few big shootas mostly to even out points though
Well, it's very close to a Storm Bolter upgrade, even considering for Orks at BS5+
SB: for 2 points gets about .66 extra wounds [in half range/bolter drill], a Big Shoota gets .59 extra wounds [upgraded from Slugga], both before saves, to T4 targets. The storm bolter goes up to .88 vs T3.
Bolter: 2/3*1/2 = .33, .66 in half/bolter drill.
Storm Bolter: 2*2/3*1/2 = .66, 1.32 in half. That's +.33W, and +.66W in half.
A Slugga is effectively worthless, but for sake of completeness: (1/6+1/6*4/3)*1/2 = .19W
A Big Shoota: 3*(1/6+1/6*4/3)*2/3 = .78W
A Big Shoota outperforms the storm bolter, without even accounting for the fact that the Storm Bolter replaces a Boltgun, at ranges between 12"-36", and is very close by performance difference within 12". 2-3 points, probably 3, because it's also assault, sounds like an appropriate price.
carldooley wrote: So, when is GW going to reduce the cost of Tau suit weapons? some are overcosted for a BS4 platform...
So are a lot of weapons. A Meltagun is worse than a Plasmagun, but costs more. A Flamer costs 6 points, a Storm Bolter costs 2.
Yeah, the design paradigm for a lot of armies is very one sided towards one type of weaponry. For the majority of Imperial factions, plasma and stormbolters are the go-to weapons. Melta and flamers may as well might not exist for what they cost right now.
carldooley wrote: So, when is GW going to reduce the cost of Tau suit weapons? some are overcosted for a BS4 platform...
So are a lot of weapons. A Meltagun is worse than a Plasmagun, but costs more. A Flamer costs 6 points, a Storm Bolter costs 2.
Yeah, the design paradigm for a lot of armies is very one sided towards one type of weaponry. For the majority of Imperial factions, plasma and stormbolters are the go-to weapons. Melta and flamers may as well might not exist for what they cost right now.
Chaos aswell, but replace stormbolters with combi and add in the odd autocannon variant.
SB: for 2 points gets about .66 extra wounds [in half range/bolter drill], a Big Shoota gets .59 extra wounds [upgraded from Slugga], both before saves, to T4 targets. The storm bolter goes up to .88 vs T3.
Bolter: 2/3*1/2 = .33, .66 in half/bolter drill. Storm Bolter: 2*2/3*1/2 = .66, 1.32 in half. That's +.33W, and +.66W in half. A Slugga is effectively worthless, but for sake of completeness: (1/6+1/6*4/3)*1/2 = .19W A Big Shoota: 3*(1/6+1/6*4/3)*2/3 = .78W
A Big Shoota outperforms the storm bolter, without even accounting for the fact that the Storm Bolter replaces a Boltgun, at ranges between 12"-36", and is very close by performance difference within 12". 2-3 points, probably 3, because it's also assault, sounds like an appropriate price.
A big shoota replaces a shoota.
And something is wrong with you math. Under no circumstances does a BS5 big shoota outperform a BS3 stormbolter.
So, even with you weird way to calculate the worth of an upgrade, a storm bolter yields .66 additional wounds, a big shoota adds .38 wounds to a shoota boy - or +50% damage for either upgrade. Unless we are talking about actually clearing chaff which tends to be T3, in that case the storm bolter (and the kustom shoota) is way better than the big shoota.
SB: for 2 points gets about .66 extra wounds [in half range/bolter drill], a Big Shoota gets .59 extra wounds [upgraded from Slugga], both before saves, to T4 targets. The storm bolter goes up to .88 vs T3.
Bolter: 2/3*1/2 = .33, .66 in half/bolter drill.
Storm Bolter: 2*2/3*1/2 = .66, 1.32 in half. That's +.33W, and +.66W in half.
A Slugga is effectively worthless, but for sake of completeness: (1/6+1/6*4/3)*1/2 = .19W
A Big Shoota: 3*(1/6+1/6*4/3)*2/3 = .78W
A Big Shoota outperforms the storm bolter, without even accounting for the fact that the Storm Bolter replaces a Boltgun, at ranges between 12"-36", and is very close by performance difference within 12". 2-3 points, probably 3, because it's also assault, sounds like an appropriate price.
A big shoota replaces a shoota.
And something is wrong with you math. Under no circumstances does a BS5 big shoota outperform a BS3 stormbolter.
Obviously, between 24" and 36" a Big Shoota has to outperform a Storm Bolter. That said...
Spoiler:
I ran 10000 tests in each circumstance, and recorded the total number of wounds inflicted.
A short-ranged storm bolter outperforms a big shoota, which in turn outperforms a long-range storm bolter. However, the above graph assumes it was just installed in place of no weapon [IE: tank pintle mount], not counting the boltgun or slugga or shoota it replaced. The below graph subtracts the distributions of the weapons being replaced [IE: assigned to infantry]:
Spoiler:
Compared to a Storm Bolter, the Big Shoota is a "more worthwhile upgrade" in the range band 12"-36", and a "less worthwhile upgrade" in the range band 0"-12". Considering the fact that it's also an assault weapon and is effective at 36" [which is 2-3 times the range of the weapon it's replacing] while the Storm Bolter tops out at 24", I'd say the Big Shoota is probably a 2-3 point weapon, erring on the side of 3 points.
More than the big shoota, I more often wonder why the Rokkit Launcher is 12 points, and the Burna does D3 shots instead of D6.
carldooley wrote: So, when is GW going to reduce the cost of Tau suit weapons? some are overcosted for a BS4 platform...
So are a lot of weapons. A Meltagun is worse than a Plasmagun, but costs more. A Flamer costs 6 points, a Storm Bolter costs 2.
The right thing to do is swap the costs for Meltagun/Plasmagun and lower Flamer weapons to 4/8 for Flamer/Heavy Flamer
I think the problem goes deeper than mispricing weapons, but down to their function and mechanical implementation, and how the weapons fill roles and their bounds of capabilities. Because tanks are T7 and T8 SV3+, the promotion of a Plasmagun to S8 D2 means it's largely as capable as a meltagun against vehicles and more capable against heavy infantry, when it didn't use to be effective against medium tanks at all.
A Big Shoota Boy will cause, on average, 0.556 Wounds between 1.1 and 36 inches.
A Storm Bolter Space Marine will cause, on average 1.111 Wounds between 1.1 and 12 inches, and 0.556 Wounds between 12.1 and 24 inches.
So, between 1.1 and 12 inches, the Storm Bolter causes 0.555 more wounds than the Big Shoota, between 12.1 and 24 inches they deal the same damage, and between 24.1 and 36 inches the Big Shoota causes 0.556 more Wounds than the Storm Bolter.
All of this versus T4, 6+Sv targets. Against T5, 6+Sv:
A Big Shoota Boy will cause, on average, 0.417 Wounds between 1.1 and 36".
A Storm Bolter Space Marine will cause, on average 0.741 Wounds between 1.1 and 12 inches, and 0.37 Wounds between 12.1 and 24 inches.
So, between 1.1 and 12 inches, the Storm Bolter causes 0.324 more wounds than the Big Shoota, between 12.1 and 24 inches the Big Shoota wil cause 0.047 more Wounds than the Storm Bolter, and between 24.1 and 36 inches the Big Shoota causes 0.417 more Wounds than the Storm Bolter.
My conclusion is that, in the "ideal" range, the Storm Bolter significantly outperforms the Big Shoota, generally causing almost twice as many Wounds. Outside of that range, the difference between them is non-existent to negligible. And, obviously, outside of the Storm Bolter's max range the Big Shoota will outperform IT significantly. So, I would say they should be relatively equally priced, based on the pure math of it. 2, maybe 3 points max.
My conclusion is that, in the "ideal" range, the Storm Bolter significantly outperforms the Big Shoota, generally causing almost twice as many Wounds. Outside of that range, the difference between them is non-existent to negligible. And, obviously, outside of the Storm Bolter's max range the Big Shoota will outperform IT significantly. So, I would say they should be relatively equally priced, based on the pure math of it. 2, maybe 3 points max.
My conclusion is everything should be priced fairly, and why would an outperforming Storm Bolter be cheaper than a Big Shoota?
1 Point. 2 Points max.
True enough. I was just running the numbers of the base stuff, before anything extra. The math starts getting wonky when you add stuff like rerolls, shoot again, etc.
My conclusion is everything should be priced fairly, and why would an outperforming Storm Bolter be cheaper than a Big Shoota?
1 Point. 2 Points max.
Because the platform it is on hides some of the cost.
So long as some weapons have a cost of 0, you will never have exactly fair pricing of weapons based on the ability of the weapon. Platform cost and opportunity cost must be weighed.
Even if we ignore vehicles, it's still a very difficult comparion. Let's for the sake of argument sick to the troops category.
A tactical Sergeant can have a storm bolter in place of his bolter. That's a max of 9 ablative wounds before it is removed.
A boy mob of 30 can have three big shooters. That's 27 ablative wounds before any are removed.
That Sergeant is giving up the opportunity to take a better weapon like a Combi plasma or power fist. The boy only gives up a shoota or chopper.
The big shoota is a significant boost over a basic shoota or Choppa*. The Storm bolter is literally a second bolter. Still a great boost but maybe not to the same degree.
Yes the boy is likely to be advancing or in combat. But the bolter discipline rule pretty much forces the tactical squad to remain still. Moving is easily more useful than standing still in games with lots of objectives.
You can't just look at damage output.
Even when you do look at damage output, you need to factor in different targets. S5 has double the chance of wounding T8. That's huge. Rarely needed, but huge.
With all that said, 5 points does sound too high. 4 maybe.
* I'm assuming the boy gives up his Choppa and slugga. I don't know.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: Compared to a Storm Bolter, the Big Shoota is a "more worthwhile upgrade" in the range band 12"-36", and a "less worthwhile upgrade" in the range band 0"-12". Considering the fact that it's also an assault weapon and is effective at 36" [which is 2-3 times the range of the weapon it's replacing] while the Storm Bolter tops out at 24", I'd say the Big Shoota is probably a 2-3 point weapon, erring on the side of 3 points.
The 36" almost never matter in ork reality. None of the units which can take big shootas sit back and shoot them from across the board, most either have other weapons with 24" range or need to get into melee to be worth their points.
Plus you still completely ignore that the storm bolter and kustom shoota outperform big shootas by a land-slide when targeting T3 - the primary target for both guns. Unless you are fighting other orks, T4 targets tend to be protected by good saves, FNP and/or -1 to hit, invalidating either weapon anyways.
I think the problem goes deeper than mispricing weapons, but down to their function and mechanical implementation, and how the weapons fill roles and their bounds of capabilities. Because tanks are T7 and T8 SV3+, the promotion of a Plasmagun to S8 D2 means it's largely as capable as a meltagun against vehicles and more capable against heavy infantry, when it didn't use to be effective against medium tanks at all.
For my Deathguard I prefer plasma over meltaguns because melta are all-or-nothing and often end up missing, bouncing off a save or just dealing two or three damage. From plasma, the chances even out better, so even if you don't destroy the tank, you are more likely to at least damage it so you can finish it off with other weapons like VotLW bolters, some blight launchers or a daemon prince. Then again, I'm a master of killing all my plague marines in single volley of overcharged plasma, even with re-rolls.
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Zustiur wrote: Because the platform it is on hides some of the cost.
So long as some weapons have a cost of 0, you will never have exactly fair pricing of weapons based on the ability of the weapon. Platform cost and opportunity cost must be weighed.
Even if we ignore vehicles, it's still a very difficult comparion. Let's for the sake of argument sick to the troops category.
A tactical Sergeant can have a storm bolter in place of his bolter. That's a max of 9 ablative wounds before it is removed.
A boy mob of 30 can have three big shooters. That's 27 ablative wounds before any are removed.
That Sergeant is giving up the opportunity to take a better weapon like a Combi plasma or power fist. The boy only gives up a shoota or chopper.
The big shoota is a significant boost over a basic shoota or Choppa*. The Storm bolter is literally a second bolter. Still a great boost but maybe not to the same degree.
Yes the boy is likely to be advancing or in combat. But the bolter discipline rule pretty much forces the tactical squad to remain still. Moving is easily more useful than standing still in games with lots of objectives.
You can't just look at damage output.
Even when you do look at damage output, you need to factor in different targets. S5 has double the chance of wounding T8. That's huge. Rarely needed, but huge.
With all that said, 5 points does sound too high. 4 maybe.
* I'm assuming the boy gives up his Choppa and slugga. I don't know.
At its current status is the big shoota is a trash upgrade that sees no play unless it's mandatory like for nauts, buggies or planes.
Storm bolter is considered a decent upgrade and units of models wielding storm bolters from multiple codices see top level tournament play.
On top of that orks do have their own storm bolters - kustom shootas are Assault 4 18" S4 for 2 points. Which is considered to be at least somewhat decent, but still sees next to no play.
This alone is sufficient proof that the big shoota is not fine at twice as many points as a gun that sees little play despite being better in almost all circumstances.
36" is worthless for any unit that can take big shootas - buggies, planes, nauts, battlewagons and shoota boyz have guns that need to be within 24" or less, kanz, koptas and boyz need to be combat to have at least a chance of getting their points back.
And on top of all that, orks are BS5! You need 8 big shootas to deal an average one wound to a T8 model. That's 40 points, how is that "huge" for a single wound on a LRBT?!
If you really think so, I guess storm bolters should be 6 points a piece - because currently 14 points of marine storm bolters also deal 1 damage to a LRBT or knight.
36" is worthless for any unit that can take big shootas - buggies, planes, nauts, battlewagons and shoota boyz have guns that need to be within 24" or less, kanz, koptas and boyz need to be combat to have at least a chance of getting their points back.
Imo the issue is that boyz, are just boyz. As in they are one unit.
You maybee could argue that gun boyz should be seperated with a higher density of 1/5 in order to be picked for objective camping.
As it stands though the bs 5+, lack of density per squad (1 /10) ,etc make them really hard to justify.
the weapon itself though is not the issue, i would take the weapon on Disciples, Marines, etc. it's just hold back by the generally subpar ork shooting for infantry and the ammount per squad.
on the other hand Dakkax3 has significantly boosted ork shooting. It's still meh at best but not to the level of older editions.
Edit: A closer comparison can be made with the Heavy stubber, which is in essence the same gun for use and platform variety. (Atleast for R&H)
it's cheaper, but a lot worse overall.
Even the basic lineinfantry of Orkz can be easily compared to Renegades and heretics. Both suffer bs 5+ and 6+ save, with the ork winning in T,WS and A department.
Due to the later two the Ork is genereally a lot more effective in Melee then Militia, whilest militia has the edge in amassing troops (4ppm). fundamentally the armies clash in the role bestowed upon them. R&H is a Gunline army with some mele capabilities, Orkz are a Melee army with some Gunline capabilities.
It makes sense for R&H to counteract their bad BS via weaponry that has a high ROF, for Ork boyz, it does not, since why bother with ROF when your melee power is just 3-4 times better, cheaper and you got a reliable way of movement?
Eonfuzz wrote: > Talks about platform > Ignores ork platform is worse than marine > Uses 189 points of "meat shield" to justify points > 4 points is ok
mfw
Seriously, the thread already had all the classics
- Orks can't shoot, so their weapons should suck (orks suck at aiming, not shooting) - There are more orks so the weapon is less likely to die, because apparently killing 6+ models is impossible and leadership doesn't exist - The weapon is better than a weapon from my codex so it should cost more - In a very specific scenario, the weapon is sometimes better than another gun that is better in all other scenarios, so it should be more expensive.
36" is worthless for any unit that can take big shootas - buggies, planes, nauts, battlewagons and shoota boyz have guns that need to be within 24" or less, kanz, koptas and boyz need to be combat to have at least a chance of getting their points back.
Imo the issue is that boyz, are just boyz. As in they are one unit. You maybee could argue that gun boyz should be seperated with a higher density of 1/5 in order to be picked for objective camping.
As it stands though the bs 5+, lack of density per squad (1 /10) ,etc make them really hard to justify.
the weapon itself though is not the issue, i would take the weapon on Disciples, Marines, etc. it's just hold back by the generally subpar ork shooting for infantry and the ammount per squad.
on the other hand Dakkax3 has significantly boosted ork shooting. It's still meh at best but not to the level of older editions.
I disagree with everything you wrote
I'll tell you why: 1) The gun itself is the issue. For 5 points you don't get 5 points worth of shooting. A big shoota does not provide the same advantages as a heavy bolter because it lacks the AP and the accuracy to actually clear chaff unless taken in sufficient numbers. Some napkin math: If you take three big shootas the extra shots make up for the lacking AP and BS. So basically buying three big shootas for a mob of boyz should be the same as buying one heavy bolter for a tactical squad - at two points per big shoota this would work, at three points it would become twice as expensive as the marine upgrade. 2) Increasing the density doesn't help the problem at all. In a list with two or three battlewagons, I can have 8-12 big shootas on fairly durable platforms, yet I take none. Because no matter how I look a it, the big shoota is not worth 5 points, especially when consider what you can get instead. The same would happen if could take six big shootas in boyz mobs. At 5 points, none would be the best option. 3) It's not like DakkaDakkaDakka has fixed ork shooting by itself. The combination of bad moons, freeboota or deff skulls traits, Dakka³, Moar Dakka and grot shield stratagems and the availability of decent anti-tank in the form the Big Killa Boss SSAG, cheap-as-chips smasha guns and the wazbom blastajet is what has brought ork shooting back. 4) Shooting wasn't that bad during old editions. In 5th an ork gun line with lootas, big guns, shoota boyz and dakka jets was a very viable strategy. 7th edition was by far the worst thing that has ever happened to orks, you shouldn't take it as a measuring stick.
Eonfuzz wrote: > Talks about platform
> Ignores ork platform is worse than marine
> Uses 189 points of "meat shield" to justify points
> 4 points is ok
mfw
Seriously, the thread already had all the classics
- Orks can't shoot, so their weapons should suck (orks suck at aiming, not shooting)
- There are more orks so the weapon is less likely to die, because apparently killing 6+ models is impossible and leadership doesn't exist
- The weapon is better than a weapon from my codex so it should cost more
- In a very specific scenario, the weapon is sometimes better than another gun that is better in all other scenarios, so it should be more expensive.
36" is worthless for any unit that can take big shootas - buggies, planes, nauts, battlewagons and shoota boyz have guns that need to be within 24" or less, kanz, koptas and boyz need to be combat to have at least a chance of getting their points back.
Imo the issue is that boyz, are just boyz. As in they are one unit.
You maybee could argue that gun boyz should be seperated with a higher density of 1/5 in order to be picked for objective camping.
As it stands though the bs 5+, lack of density per squad (1 /10) ,etc make them really hard to justify.
the weapon itself though is not the issue, i would take the weapon on Disciples, Marines, etc. it's just hold back by the generally subpar ork shooting for infantry and the ammount per squad.
on the other hand Dakkax3 has significantly boosted ork shooting. It's still meh at best but not to the level of older editions.
I disagree with everything you wrote
I'll tell you why:
1) The gun itself is the issue. For 5 points you don't get 5 points worth of shooting. A big shoota does not provide the same advantages as a heavy bolter because it lacks the AP and the accuracy to actually clear chaff unless taken in sufficient numbers. Some napkin math: If you take three big shootas the extra shots make up for the lacking AP and BS. So basically buying three big shootas for a mob of boyz should be the same as buying one heavy bolter for a tactical squad - at two points per big shoota this would work, at three points it would become twice as expensive as the marine upgrade.
2) Increasing the density doesn't help the problem at all. In a list with two or three battlewagons, I can have 8-12 big shootas on fairly durable platforms, yet I take none. Because no matter how I look a it, the big shoota is not worth 5 points, especially when consider what you can get instead. The same would happen if could take six big shootas in boyz mobs. At 5 points, none would be the best option.
3) It's not like DakkaDakkaDakka has fixed ork shooting by itself. The combination of bad moons, freeboota or deff skulls traits, Dakka³, Moar Dakka and grot shield stratagems and the availability of decent anti-tank in the form the Big Killa Boss SSAG, cheap-as-chips smasha guns and the wazbom blastajet is what has brought ork shooting back.
4) Shooting wasn't that bad during old editions. In 5th an ork gun line with lootas, big guns, shoota boyz and dakka jets was a very viable strategy. 7th edition was by far the worst thing that has ever happened to orks, you shouldn't take it as a measuring stick.
1) you can compare the Gun all you like to a heavy bolter. It is still closer to a heavy stubber in application use and units that can field it. See spoiler
Spoiler:
Edit: A closer comparison can be made with the Heavy stubber, which is in essence the same gun for use and platform variety. (Atleast for R&H)
it's cheaper, but a lot worse overall.
Even the basic lineinfantry of Orkz can be easily compared to Renegades and heretics. Both suffer bs 5+ and 6+ save, with the ork winning in T,WS and A department.
Due to the later two the Ork is genereally a lot more effective in Melee then Militia, whilest militia has the edge in amassing troops (4ppm). fundamentally the armies clash in the role bestowed upon them. R&H is a Gunline army with some mele capabilities, Orkz are a Melee army with some Gunline capabilities.
It makes sense for R&H to counteract their bad BS via weaponry that has a high ROF, for Ork boyz, it does not, since why bother with ROF when your melee power is just 3-4 times better, cheaper and you got a reliable way of movement?
2) I agree on the pricing but ever since GW tought standardized pricing = good you will not see change. (personally 3 pts would do fine on a bs 5 plattform if the stubber is indeed worth 2 pts for bs 5 plattforms. )
3) I don't play orkz these days anymore so forgive me for beeing rusted.
4) meh, i didn't play orkz during 7th i was preoccupied with IA13 Renegade lists. I do remember distinctly the time though when the Dakkajets et all came out. bs 4 + and ground attack certainly did help to push them torwards beeing good units. (considering i own a full airwing i may or may not have had clear leanings torwards dakka always.)
5) I miss 'ard boyz or panzaboys with 4+ armor though, they always were a decent camp and shot unit.
Not Online!!! wrote: 1) you can compare the Gun all you like to a heavy bolter. It is still closer to a heavy stubber in application use and units that can field it. See spoiler
I'll not go into the R&H part since I don't feel like anyone at GW has given a grot's ass about balancing them properly.
What I was trying to say that the big shoota's only role is to kill infantry models with average toughness and bad saves in an efficient way. At 5 points it can't fulfill that role, neither in comparison to other codices (heavy bolter), nor in comparison to its own codex (shoota, kustom shoota or even skorchas). An optional upgrade that cannot fulfill its primary role might as well not exist.
2) I agree on the pricing but ever since GW tought standardized pricing = good you will not see change. (personally 3 pts would do fine on a bs 5 plattform if the stubber is indeed worth 2 pts for bs 5 plattforms. )
The thing is, a stubber/slugger is something you usually would leave at home if you could. The vast majority of them see play because a vehicle must take a hull-mounted weapon and it's the cheapest option/can't be removed.
Big shootas come in three variations - in competition with another weapon (shoota boyz, kanz, deff dread, koptas), bolt-on upgrade you can simply chose not to take (battlewagon) and random hull weapon on a pile of guns with no choice but to take them(planes, nauts, buggies).
I think they are actually fine in the last category because they are just part of the base price, but in the first two cases there is simply no reason to ever take them for 5 points, especially when compared to a rokkit, KMB or dread klaw.
4) meh, i didn't play orkz during 7th i was preoccupied with IA13 Renegade lists. I do remember distinctly the time though when the Dakkajets et all came out. bs 4 + and ground attack certainly did help to push them torwards beeing good units. (considering i own a full airwing i may or may not have had clear leanings torwards dakka always.)
During 5th orks in general worked quite well due to some lucky coincidences. Autocannons were the best guns in the game and lootas happen to be a unit with all autocannons - with the help of dirt cheap kannons, rokkit koptas or buggies and a 4+ KFF, they could reliably take on even the dreaded leaf-blower. Since a single penetrating hit was enough to either outright destroy a vehicle or at least its main gun, deff guns, rokkits, PKs, deff rollas and kannons were plenty to destroy anything but the mighty landraider. 6th changed both the KFF and how vehicles took damage, plus challenges made PK nobz a liability. It also buried the exploit that made nob bikers great, leaving orks with no way to deal with armor.
5) I miss 'ard boyz or panzaboys with 4+ armor though, they always were a decent camp and shot unit.
Yeah, that 5+ stratagem is just dumb. They should just have made it 4+ and exclude them from looting.
Just wanna mention that the "Ork Boyz have more ablative Wounds" argument isn't the whole story. An MSU of 10 Boyz costs 70 pts, while an MSU of 5 Tac Marines costs 65. After the cost of a Big Shoota or Storm Bolter, those go up to 75 and 67 pts. To take down 11 Wounds of Boyz (9 Boyz and 1 Nob) it would take a BS4+ platform with an S4, AP0, D1 weapon 52 shots. To take down 6 Wounds of Marines (4 Marines and 1 Sergeant) it would take the same enemy 72 shots. This because the Marines have a 3+Sv versus the 6+ of the Boyz.
If we go with the largest possibly units for each, you'd have 30 Boyz for 210 pts and 10 Marines for 130 pts. After adding in 3 Big Shootaz and a Storm Bolter, you're looking at 225 and 132. In regards to durability, those Boyz will require 144 shots to take down, via the same enemy as before. The Marines will take 99 shots. So, in order to get to the point where the ablative Wounds make Boyz a more durable platform for their heavy weapons, you need to pay roughly 2/3rds more points than the Marines, while getting roughly 50% more durability. This isn't incredibly efficient, and doesn't even get into the difficulty of hiding 30 Boyz out of LOS compared to 10 Marines. Point for point, Marines are going to be roughly 50% more durable than Boyz, with better all-around stats, until you start getting into AP-2 or higher. When higher AP weapons start hitting, durability begins to lean towards the Boy side.
Since at least the people entirely missed the point I was making. Let me try again.
A) you can't compare weapons by themselves. You have to compare the price of the unit and what you've chosen not to take instead. You have to compare durability, mobility, availability and all sorts of other factors.
B) what if I told you a storm bolter is actually a 4 point weapon on a body that is 2 points too expensive?
As I said earlier, fairly pricing weapons cannot be done until no weapon costs 0.
Zustiur wrote: Since at least the people entirely missed the point I was making. Let me try again.
A) you can't compare weapons by themselves. You have to compare the price of the unit and what you've chosen not to take instead. You have to compare durability, mobility, availability and all sorts of other factors.
B) what if I told you a storm bolter is actually a 4 point weapon on a body that is 2 points too expensive?
As I said earlier, fairly pricing weapons cannot be done until no weapon costs 0.
We didn't miss that point. Thing is, right now they are a waste of points. Both math and experience have sufficiently proven that. So they need to go down, the question is just by how much.
When trying to find that answer, you are right, there are too many things to consider to just math it out. Therefore we look to weapons with similar performance (storm bolters or kustom shootas) as a milestone. If that ends up making them too cheap and thus auto-takes, they need to go up again.
There is no other way than iteration to find the correct values for game balance in complex games.
Zustiur wrote: Since at least the people entirely missed the point I was making. Let me try again.
A) you can't compare weapons by themselves. You have to compare the price of the unit and what you've chosen not to take instead. You have to compare durability, mobility, availability and all sorts of other factors.
B) what if I told you a storm bolter is actually a 4 point weapon on a body that is 2 points too expensive?
As I said earlier, fairly pricing weapons cannot be done until no weapon costs 0.
you cannot lump in the cost of the weapon into the cost of the platform it is being wielded by simply because of how 8th works.
Now i think it is dumb to say that a storm bolter is the same cost on a space marine sargent as a spacemarine captain let alone for 2 points on a rhino for a 2nd one
The sarg pays 2 points and hits on 3's, the captain hits on 2's and rerolls 1's because of who he is. A LT allows rerolls to wound and can still take a storm bolter for 2 points.
A rhino can take 2 storm bolters, and is much tougher than a SM sarg but pays the same points.
I think it is valid to say space marines are too pricey, but it is invalid to take that into account for wargear costs. It should be something GW addresses in chapter approved (though not sure they ever will)
KurtAngle2 wrote: 2 Points, on par with a Heavy Stubber being 2 pts on a BS4+ platform
Every ork has dakka dakka. Literally doubling a weapons potential. They should get 0 discounts for their bs 5 as a result. The weapon is clearly superior to a stubber considering it's +1 str and assault.
KurtAngle2 wrote: 2 Points, on par with a Heavy Stubber being 2 pts on a BS4+ platform
Every ork has dakka dakka. Literally doubling a weapons potential. They should get 0 discounts for their bs 5 as a result. The weapon is clearly superior to a stubber considering it's +1 str and assault.
Good point, but I don't think it should be more than 3 pts, all considered.
KurtAngle2 wrote: 2 Points, on par with a Heavy Stubber being 2 pts on a BS4+ platform
Every ork has dakka dakka. Literally doubling a weapons potential. They should get 0 discounts for their bs 5 as a result. The weapon is clearly superior to a stubber considering it's +1 str and assault.
dakka dakka does not equate to BS4, it allows another possible shot only on 1/6 (.16) and then you hit with it 1/3 so 6% of the time they get the extra hit. it makes them BS ~4.6 vs BS4
They can spend cp to pull off dakka dakka on a 5 but no (good) ork player is going to do that one boyz unit w/ 3 big shootas. better to spend on a SSAG or lootas
KurtAngle2 wrote: 2 Points, on par with a Heavy Stubber being 2 pts on a BS4+ platform
Every ork has dakka dakka. Literally doubling a weapons potential. They should get 0 discounts for their bs 5 as a result. The weapon is clearly superior to a stubber considering it's +1 str and assault.
Spoken like a true person who has made multiple mistakes on Ork rules before and has no understanding of how the army actually works. Have you read any of the posts before writing this down? Jidmah has already highlighted the many issues of the big shoota in the current Ork codex. Proccing on 6's to hit for shooting is great...if negative to hit modififers didn't exist and that the extra shot still only hits on a 5+. It can't be taken in enough volume in units that would want to abuse its range and shots and is outdone by several other anti-infantry weaponry in the Ork army that either costs less (kustom shoota) or is just plain better from being on a better platform and has better damage (dakkajet).
KurtAngle2 wrote: 2 Points, on par with a Heavy Stubber being 2 pts on a BS4+ platform
Every ork has dakka dakka. Literally doubling a weapons potential. They should get 0 discounts for their bs 5 as a result. The weapon is clearly superior to a stubber considering it's +1 str and assault.
Good point, but I don't think it should be more than 3 pts, all considered.
4 points seems fair in a world where a heavy bolter is 10.
KurtAngle2 wrote: 2 Points, on par with a Heavy Stubber being 2 pts on a BS4+ platform
Every ork has dakka dakka. Literally doubling a weapons potential. They should get 0 discounts for their bs 5 as a result. The weapon is clearly superior to a stubber considering it's +1 str and assault.
Good point, but I don't think it should be more than 3 pts, all considered.
A stubber is 2 points and is heavy. Lets just consider cultists here. They are always moving because they are objective grabbers. They hit on 5's with a stubber too as a result and they can't shoot it and advance ether. An evil suns ork can advance and shoot it with no penalty and proc additional shots on 6's. 4 points seems about right.
KurtAngle2 wrote: 2 Points, on par with a Heavy Stubber being 2 pts on a BS4+ platform
Every ork has dakka dakka. Literally doubling a weapons potential. They should get 0 discounts for their bs 5 as a result. The weapon is clearly superior to a stubber considering it's +1 str and assault.
Spoken like a true person who has made multiple mistakes on Ork rules before and has no understanding of how the army actually works. Have you read any of the posts before writing this down? Jidmah has already highlighted the many issues of the big shoota in the current Ork codex. Proccing on 6's to hit for shooting is great...if negative to hit modififers didn't exist and that the extra shot still only hits on a 5+. It can't be taken in enough volume in units that would want to abuse its range and shots and is outdone by several other anti-infantry weaponry in the Ork army that either costs less (kustom shoota) or is just plain better from being on a better platform and has better damage (dakkajet).
All I said was it is superior to a stubber and it clearly is. My point about dakka dakka is it is pretty close to and often better than having BS4+. ESP if you can get free bootas +1 to hit or activate procing on 5's.
KurtAngle2 wrote: 2 Points, on par with a Heavy Stubber being 2 pts on a BS4+ platform
Every ork has dakka dakka. Literally doubling a weapons potential. They should get 0 discounts for their bs 5 as a result. The weapon is clearly superior to a stubber considering it's +1 str and assault.
Good point, but I don't think it should be more than 3 pts, all considered.
4 points seems fair in a world where a heavy bolter is 10.
A heavy bolter is overpriced too. it I think suffers the same problem. It is priced as if it were on a vehicle (and still overpriced compared to a storm bolter on a vehicle) I think it is worth 7ish points on a vehicle and probably half that on infantry so 4. But since they share a points cost GW is unlikely to split it off appropriatly this edition. maybe next edition they will at least divide to weapons cost for infantry and vehicle again
KurtAngle2 wrote: 2 Points, on par with a Heavy Stubber being 2 pts on a BS4+ platform
Every ork has dakka dakka. Literally doubling a weapons potential. They should get 0 discounts for their bs 5 as a result. The weapon is clearly superior to a stubber considering it's +1 str and assault.
Good point, but I don't think it should be more than 3 pts, all considered.
A stubber is 2 points and is heavy. Lets just consider cultists here. They are always moving because they are objective grabbers. They hit on 5's with a stubber too as a result and they can't shoot it and advance ether. An evil suns ork can advance and shoot it with no penalty and proc additional shots on 6's. 4 points seems about right.
KurtAngle2 wrote: 2 Points, on par with a Heavy Stubber being 2 pts on a BS4+ platform
Every ork has dakka dakka. Literally doubling a weapons potential. They should get 0 discounts for their bs 5 as a result. The weapon is clearly superior to a stubber considering it's +1 str and assault.
Spoken like a true person who has made multiple mistakes on Ork rules before and has no understanding of how the army actually works. Have you read any of the posts before writing this down? Jidmah has already highlighted the many issues of the big shoota in the current Ork codex. Proccing on 6's to hit for shooting is great...if negative to hit modififers didn't exist and that the extra shot still only hits on a 5+. It can't be taken in enough volume in units that would want to abuse its range and shots and is outdone by several other anti-infantry weaponry in the Ork army that either costs less (kustom shoota) or is just plain better from being on a better platform and has better damage (dakkajet).
All I said was it is superior to a stubber and it clearly is. My point about dakka dakka is it is pretty close to and often better than having BS4+. ESP if you can get free bootas +1 to hit or activate procing on 5's.
math says 4+BS due to dakka dakka is very wrong why do you keep trying to push this falsety. it is BS ~4.6 slightly better than 5 but it is a 6% chance to get an extra hit per shot
As a non greenskin I vote 2 pts although I could see 3 being fair. Its rare that the big shoota will be on par or ever out perform a stormbolter. 5 pts is laughable for what the weapon actually accomplishes.
With DakkaDakkaDakka a Big Shoota can get up to six shots! That means it could potentially wipe out an entire Grey Knight Strike Squad on its own! (Bad Moons could potentiall take out two whole Strike Squads with a single Big Shoota for a mere 2 CP!) At 6 points the Big Shoota is obviously a steal.
On a more serious note, I think that a problem with some comparisons to Space Marines is that for them their Storm Bolter is probably undercosted and their Heavy Bolter is probably overcosted.
Jidmah wrote: Xenomancer: Marines suck!
Also Xenomancer: Orks should not be better than marines.
Orks are top tier and marines are bottom. My logical argument is actually a buff to a big shoota at 4 points has literally nothing to do with marines. Because dakka dakka and assault rule and str 5 compared to a 2 point stubber you can't charge less than 4 points.
HB is 10 points is probably the only argument for 6 point BS. It's actually a strong argument too. Unless you are also suggesting a 50% drop to HB across the board for all armies. Ork players should probably just be content having a top tier codex with 30 point smasha guns.
Jidmah wrote: Xenomancer: Marines suck!
Also Xenomancer: Orks should not be better than marines.
Orks are top tier and marines are bottom. My logical argument is actually a buff to a big shoota at 4 points has literally nothing to do with marines. Because dakka dakka and assault rule and str 5 compared to a 2 point stubber you can't charge less than 4 points.
HB is 10 points is probably the only argument for 6 point BS. It's actually a strong argument too. Unless you are also suggesting a 50% drop to HB across the board for all armies. Ork players should probably just be content having a top tier codex with 30 point smasha guns.
Aaaaaand you lost what little credibility you may have had left. If you seriously think that a big shoota costing 6 points is reasonable because we have undercosted smasha guns then you can't blame people for not taking you seriously. By that logic, you should be paying 15 points for heavy bolters since Primaris Hellblasters are one of the only competitive things marine players consistently bring to games. That'll balance them out! Swearsies!
Having an overpriced weapon is not justified by having a completely unrelated unit choice being spammed in an army, if anything it should be altered to make having weapons choices actually matter in the army and give rise to diversity in lists. But judging from your past posts, all you want are movie marines with plasma weapon-level bolt weaponry as standard while staying at the same cost.
Jidmah wrote: Xenomancer: Marines suck!
Also Xenomancer: Orks should not be better than marines.
Orks are top tier and marines are bottom. My logical argument is actually a buff to a big shoota at 4 points has literally nothing to do with marines. Because dakka dakka and assault rule and str 5 compared to a 2 point stubber you can't charge less than 4 points.
HB is 10 points is probably the only argument for 6 point BS. It's actually a strong argument too. Unless you are also suggesting a 50% drop to HB across the board for all armies. Ork players should probably just be content having a top tier codex with 30 point smasha guns.
Aaaaaand you lost what little credibility you may have had left. If you seriously think that a big shoota costing 6 points is reasonable because we have undercosted smasha guns then you can't blame people for not taking you seriously. By that logic, you should be paying 15 points for heavy bolters since Primaris Hellblasters are one of the only competitive things marine players consistently bring to games. That'll balance them out! Swearsies!
Having an overpriced weapon is not justified by having a completely unrelated unit choice being spammed in an army, if anything it should be altered to make having weapons choices actually matter in the army and give rise to diversity in lists. But judging from your past posts, all you want are movie marines with plasma weapon-level bolt weaponry as standard while staying at the same cost.
It is justified based on the cost of other weapons comparable to it. In this thread nid devs have brought up. They are 4 point 18"range str 4 assault 3 weapons. You think a BS should cost 1 to 2 points while this weapon cost 4? It's also not uncommon for nids to bring a unit of 30 dev gaunts...so...seriously. A 4 point BS would be fine and probably be auto include in every boys unit - if it kills 1 model it pays for itself. The point about smashas is...maybe when you have some of the most undercosted shooting in the game - you shouldn't complain about an option you aren't forced to take. Just bring more smashas and dakka jets.
Jidmah wrote: Xenomancer: Marines suck!
Also Xenomancer: Orks should not be better than marines.
Orks are top tier and marines are bottom. My logical argument is actually a buff to a big shoota at 4 points has literally nothing to do with marines. Because dakka dakka and assault rule and str 5 compared to a 2 point stubber you can't charge less than 4 points.
HB is 10 points is probably the only argument for 6 point BS. It's actually a strong argument too. Unless you are also suggesting a 50% drop to HB across the board for all armies. Ork players should probably just be content having a top tier codex with 30 point smasha guns.
Aaaaaand you lost what little credibility you may have had left. If you seriously think that a big shoota costing 6 points is reasonable because we have undercosted smasha guns then you can't blame people for not taking you seriously. By that logic, you should be paying 15 points for heavy bolters since Primaris Hellblasters are one of the only competitive things marine players consistently bring to games. That'll balance them out! Swearsies!
Having an overpriced weapon is not justified by having a completely unrelated unit choice being spammed in an army, if anything it should be altered to make having weapons choices actually matter in the army and give rise to diversity in lists. But judging from your past posts, all you want are movie marines with plasma weapon-level bolt weaponry as standard while staying at the same cost.
It is justified based on the cost of other weapons comparable to it. In this thread nid devs have brought up. They are 4 point 18"range str 4 assault 3 weapons. You think a BS should cost 1 to 2 points while this weapon cost 4? It's also not uncommon for nids to bring a unit of 30 dev gaunts...so...seriously. A 4 point BS would be fine and probably be auto include in every boys unit - if it kills 1 model it pays for itself. The point about smashas is...maybe when you have some of the most undercosted shooting in the game - you shouldn't complain about an option you aren't forced to take. Just bring more smashas and dakka jets.
False equivalence. Termagants have better base BS and their entire unit can take it, meaning they can actually have a proper amount of saturation in a unit without overcommitting to an unwieldy unit size, unlike a measly 3 big shootas that is only possible if you take a full 30 man unit. Furthermore, even in the instance where we assume that both the devourer and the big shoota is comparable, how does the devourer being overpriced justify the big shoota being overpriced as well? It's like saying Ork Power Klaws don't deserve to come down in price like all the other PF equivalents in the next CA because Big Choppas are cheap and good hurr durr, just spam those.
Eh. Smasha: 35 pts. BS4. 48" range. D3 Shots. 2d6 equal or greater than Toughness of target to Wound. -4 AP. D6 Damage. On average, that's 1 hit, a 41.7% chance to Wound a T8 target, assuming a 5++ a 27.8% chance to move to Damage. So, roughly a 1 in 4 chance to deal 3.5 Damage to their prefered targets, who generally have about 3x that amount. This on a T5, W6, Sv4+ platform that can only move 3" a turn and is practically impossible to put in Cover or out of LOS, and has a large footprint to manage. It also cannot benefit from any Stratagems nor Kultur. Not all that impressive compared to a lot of other things we got floating around in the various books. Anything that will take down a Tac Squad will just as easily take down a Smasha.
Jidmah wrote: Xenomancer: Marines suck!
Also Xenomancer: Orks should not be better than marines.
Orks are top tier and marines are bottom. My logical argument is actually a buff to a big shoota at 4 points has literally nothing to do with marines. Because dakka dakka and assault rule and str 5 compared to a 2 point stubber you can't charge less than 4 points.
HB is 10 points is probably the only argument for 6 point BS. It's actually a strong argument too. Unless you are also suggesting a 50% drop to HB across the board for all armies. Ork players should probably just be content having a top tier codex with 30 point smasha guns.
Aaaaaand you lost what little credibility you may have had left. If you seriously think that a big shoota costing 6 points is reasonable because we have undercosted smasha guns then you can't blame people for not taking you seriously. By that logic, you should be paying 15 points for heavy bolters since Primaris Hellblasters are one of the only competitive things marine players consistently bring to games. That'll balance them out! Swearsies!
Having an overpriced weapon is not justified by having a completely unrelated unit choice being spammed in an army, if anything it should be altered to make having weapons choices actually matter in the army and give rise to diversity in lists. But judging from your past posts, all you want are movie marines with plasma weapon-level bolt weaponry as standard while staying at the same cost.
It is justified based on the cost of other weapons comparable to it. In this thread nid devs have brought up. They are 4 point 18"range str 4 assault 3 weapons. You think a BS should cost 1 to 2 points while this weapon cost 4? It's also not uncommon for nids to bring a unit of 30 dev gaunts...so...seriously. A 4 point BS would be fine and probably be auto include in every boys unit - if it kills 1 model it pays for itself. The point about smashas is...maybe when you have some of the most undercosted shooting in the game - you shouldn't complain about an option you aren't forced to take. Just bring more smashas and dakka jets.
False equivalence. Termagants have better base BS and their entire unit can take it, meaning they can actually have a proper amount of saturation in a unit without overcommitting to an unwieldy unit size, unlike a measly 3 big shootas that is only possible if you take a full 30 man unit. Furthermore, even in the instance where we assume that both the devourer and the big shoota is comparable, how does the devourer being overpriced justify the big shoota being overpriced as well? It's like saying Ork Power Klaws don't deserve to come down in price like all the other PF equivalents in the next CA because Big Choppas are cheap and good hurr durr, just spam those.
You are right - it is false equivalence. The BS is quite superior to the Dev but you want it to cost less...Why should the BS get a point drop and not every comparably overcosted weapon? Listen to what I am saying stop projecting on me. Game balance is what I want. A dude said he wanted to see the argument for a 6 point BS and I gave him a pretty good one with a HB costing 10. Power Claws obviously need to come down because their comparable weapons also came down.
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flandarz wrote: Eh. Smasha: 35 pts. BS4. 48" range. D3 Shots. 2d6 equal or greater than Toughness of target to Wound. -4 AP. D6 Damage. On average, that's 1 hit, a 41.7% chance to Wound a T8 target, assuming a 5++ a 27.8% chance to move to Damage. So, roughly a 1 in 4 chance to deal 3.5 Damage to their prefered targets, who generally have about 3x that amount. This on a T5, W6, Sv4+ platform that can only move 3" a turn and is practically impossible to put in Cover or out of LOS, and has a large footprint to manage. It also cannot benefit from any Stratagems nor Kultur. Not all that impressive compared to a lot of other things we got floating around in the various books. Anything that will take down a Tac Squad will just as easily take down a Smasha.
Please stop. It averages more hits than a marine with a rocket launcher. With more AP. The possibility of 3 or more hits and AP-4 or something absurd? It's also quite tough for it's points. It's indefensible. Don't even bother with it. It's undercosted.
Jidmah wrote: Xenomancer: Marines suck! Also Xenomancer: Orks should not be better than marines.
Orks are top tier and marines are bottom. My logical argument is actually a buff to a big shoota at 4 points has literally nothing to do with marines. Because dakka dakka and assault rule and str 5 compared to a 2 point stubber you can't charge less than 4 points.
Oh I get it. It's exactly how all marines are fine because Gulliman exists, right?
I suggest at least reading the thread before you make even more of a fool out of yourself.
Jidmah wrote: Xenomancer: Marines suck!
Also Xenomancer: Orks should not be better than marines.
Orks are top tier and marines are bottom. My logical argument is actually a buff to a big shoota at 4 points has literally nothing to do with marines. Because dakka dakka and assault rule and str 5 compared to a 2 point stubber you can't charge less than 4 points.
Oh I get it. It's exactly how all marines are fine because Gulliman exists, right?
I thought we were talking about weapons. What are we to compare weapons to if not other weapons?
Xenomancers wrote: You are right - it is false equivalence. The BS is quite superior to the Dev but you want it to cost less...Why should the BS get a point drop and not every comparably overcosted weapon? Listen to what I am saying stop projecting on me. Game balance is what I want. A dude said he wanted to see the argument for a 6 point BS and I gave him a pretty good one with a HB costing 10. Power Claws obviously need to come down because their comparable weapons also came down.
I don't even know where to start. Ork players want the big shoota to be a useful option. Your argument is that is should be useless because other completely unrelated guns are useless too, and then suggest that a terrible option should cost even more while patting yourself on the should how well though out that argument is?
You have no clue what game balance is. Matt Ward has a better grasp of game balance than you.
Please stop. It averages more hits than a marine with a rocket launcher. With more AP. The possibility of 3 or more hits and AP-4 or something absurd? It's also quite tough for it's points. It's indefensible. Don't even bother with it. It's undercosted.
It's funny how you always pull the missile launcher out of your rear when you want to make a point instead of an actually competitive option. Missle launchers are awesome compared to bubblechukkas, they should go up in points!
Insectum7 wrote: Comparing weapons across codexes is usually not particularly useful. That said, 5 points seems like an ok price. Could be cheaper.
A Tyranid Deathspitter is 24" range, S5 AP -1 on BS 3-4+ platforms, and is 5 points. Though the minimum cost for such platform is 20, I think.
Hold up, you're saying 5 points is an okay price versus:
-1 AP, +2 or +3 BS and -12"?
I'd take the deathspitter over a big shoota any day.
Dont forget the +12" is basically useless for an Ork, as they will be running or advancing anyway
12" extra range, especially at the 24-36 band is definitely not useless. Since the Shootas are assault, they can still shoot while advancing too. Sure, it's a 6+, but shots are shots.
I think the more interesting question is: "What targets do you shoot big shootas at to get a good points return." Which I think is:
(chance to wound) x (point per wound of target) - - - - - vs. Space Marines (.333 x .666 x .333 x 3) x (13) = 2.8. So in two rounds of firing a 5 point shoota makes its points back. 4 rounds if it's advancing.
Xenomancers wrote: I thought we were talking about weapons. What are we to compare weapons to if not other weapons?
Do you really want me to quote back to you all your half-baked arguments about dakka³, ork BS and other things which are not part of the weapon?
Do you really not understand that a different codex with different support auras, different stat lines, different options, different stratagems and different army traits should have an impact on how much a weapon should cost in the context of that codex?
That's like saying Assault Marines need a nerf because the Chainsword and Aeldari Blade cost the same (on the same models no less), but the Chainsword is better.
And obviously Marines are fine with being nerfed becasue Gman is good.
Xenomancers wrote: I thought we were talking about weapons. What are we to compare weapons to if not other weapons?
Do you really want me to quote back to you all your half-baked arguments about dakka³, ork BS and other things which are not part of the weapon?
Do you really not understand that a different codex with different support auras, different stat lines, different options, different stratagems and different army traits should have an impact on how much a weapon should cost in the context of that codex?
Imo one point can be made.
Alot of csm /sm/ Ork equipment is overpriced due to specific expected overperfprmance combination, be they Guilliman or klan kultures etc.
Imo it leads to the clear combo wombo or home Syndrome that many dexes have.
Oblits are always Slaanesh etc.
Such things.
Grimskul wrote: I think Xenomancer is borderline trolling at this point tbh.
We spent several pages a while back discussing hyperbole a while back, and discovered he simply uses rhetoric devices he's encountered, without knowing or caring what they mean or say. So it's not actual trolling.
If you have math that contradicts my own on the properties of a Smasha, then I'm more than willing to see it. Of course, maybe this is from your personal experience. I could see someone who runs a vehicle-heavy list taking askance with the Smasha. Of course, the other side of the coin is that anyone who runs an infantry-based army is going to think Smashas are a joke.
Grimskul wrote: I think Xenomancer is borderline trolling at this point tbh.
We spent several pages a while back discussing hyperbole a while back, and discovered he simply uses rhetoric devices he's encountered, without knowing or caring what they mean or say. So it's not actual trolling.
Ah, so he's just ignorant, gotcha.
Kinda makes his statements worse though, if he actually believes in what he says.
Insectum7 wrote: 12" extra range, especially at the 24-36 band is definitely not useless. Since the Shootas are assault, they can still shoot while advancing too. Sure, it's a 6+, but shots are shots.
Shots that do not hit anything are 5 points for nothing. The chance of them not hitting anything is almost 60%, the chance of not doing a single point of damage to a space marine is 80%. Granted, space marines are terrible targets for a big shoota, but "shots are shots" is only valuable in the world of averages where you kill .222 marines per turn. In reality a big shoota kills a marine every five games or so and wastes your points during all those other games.
I think the more interesting question is: "What targets do you shoot big shootas at to get a good points return." Which I think is:
(chance to wound) x (point per wound of target) - - - - - vs. Space Marines (.333 x .666 x .333 x 3) x (13) = 2.8. So in two rounds of firing a 5 point shoota makes its points back. 4 rounds if it's advancing.
Sorry. but that math is completely disconnected from reality. Without advancing, shooting for 3-4 turns averages a single dead marine. The expected turns shooting of a big shoota in a boys mob is about one turn, if its lucky it gets green tided and lives for a second, afterwards it's usually dead or in combat until dead. You also trade away the shoota for your big shoota, so the value of the upgrade is even lower.
Xenomancers wrote: I thought we were talking about weapons. What are we to compare weapons to if not other weapons?
Do you really want me to quote back to you all your half-baked arguments about dakka³, ork BS and other things which are not part of the weapon?
Do you really not understand that a different codex with different support auras, different stat lines, different options, different stratagems and different army traits should have an impact on how much a weapon should cost in the context of that codex?
Imo one point can be made.
Alot of csm /sm/ Ork equipment is overpriced due to specific expected overperfprmance combination, be they Guilliman or klan kultures etc.
Imo it leads to the clear combo wombo or home Syndrome that many dexes have.
Oblits are always Slaanesh etc.
Such things.
I agree with that fully, but I don't think that's the case for the big shoota. It's simply over costed because GW saw some value in it that doesn't exist, neither math nor experience supports them being worth 5 pts in the context of the ork army - not even when putting them on bad moons shoota boyz and shooting them twice with all the stratagems you could think of.
Most of GW's designers aren't ork players, so their thoughts are probably the same as those shared by other non-ork players in this thread, thinking of them being a decent weapons for an imperial gun line army and costing it as such.
Actually the point was, that it was overcosted as a knee jerk reaction from gw.
It certainly got rolled under the bus for dakka ^3 Etc.
And or it remains 5 pts because it always was 5 pts. Which is just as likely.
But again the guns fine the body it's on is just not made for shooting. That and the price, because as you said why bother with a 5 pts upgrade when the carrier anyways will only shoot 1 -2 times per battle and has little to no chance of actually getting use else out of it.
Insectum7 wrote: 12" extra range, especially at the 24-36 band is definitely not useless. Since the Shootas are assault, they can still shoot while advancing too. Sure, it's a 6+, but shots are shots.
Shots that do not hit anything are 5 points for nothing. The chance of them not hitting anything is almost 60%, the chance of not doing a single point of damage to a space marine is 80%. Granted, space marines are terrible targets for a big shoota, but "shots are shots" is only valuable in the world of averages where you kill .222 marines per turn. In reality a big shoota kills a marine every five games or so and wastes your points during all those other games.
I think the more interesting question is: "What targets do you shoot big shootas at to get a good points return." Which I think is:
(chance to wound) x (point per wound of target) - - - - - vs. Space Marines (.333 x .666 x .333 x 3) x (13) = 2.8. So in two rounds of firing a 5 point shoota makes its points back. 4 rounds if it's advancing.
Sorry. but that math is completely disconnected from reality. Without advancing, shooting for 3-4 turns averages a single dead marine. The expected turns shooting of a big shoota in a boys mob is about one turn, if its lucky it gets green tided and lives for a second, afterwards it's usually dead or in combat until dead. You also trade away the shoota for your big shoota, so the value of the upgrade is even lower.
Well. . . . if you're expecting to advance with your Boyz every game, then maybe don't pay the points for the Big Shoota. Weapons aren't necessarily costed around specific tactics. I'm seeing that 3 big Shootas at 15 points can return a 13 point kill every round if you are playing to it. That doesn't seem so bad.
3 Big Shootas are 9 shots. With DDD, that's 7/2 hits.
Against MEQs, that's 7/3 wounds.
7/9 failed saves.
So, assuming the Marines aren't Ravenguard or Iron Hands, aren't in cover, and the Boyz focus fire on one squad, they'll usually kill a Marine per turn with their Big Shootas. Which isn't even a full return on points, and it's targeting someone who's generally considered overcosted.
Compare to a Storm Bolter-4 shots get 8/3 hits, 4/3 wounds, and 4/9 failed saves against a MEQ. That's nearly THREE TIMES its cost in terms of damage dealt! Clearly, Storm Bolters are ridiculously OP and should cost at least six points.
The math isn't off, it is disconected from reality.
He means that your scenario is good mathemathically just not happening, ergo to be diaregarded in this debate.
And frankly i tend to agree on this with jimdah in this case.
Insectum7 wrote: 12" extra range, especially at the 24-36 band is definitely not useless. Since the Shootas are assault, they can still shoot while advancing too. Sure, it's a 6+, but shots are shots.
Shots that do not hit anything are 5 points for nothing. The chance of them not hitting anything is almost 60%, the chance of not doing a single point of damage to a space marine is 80%. Granted, space marines are terrible targets for a big shoota, but "shots are shots" is only valuable in the world of averages where you kill .222 marines per turn. In reality a big shoota kills a marine every five games or so and wastes your points during all those other games.
I think the more interesting question is: "What targets do you shoot big shootas at to get a good points return." Which I think is:
(chance to wound) x (point per wound of target) - - - - - vs. Space Marines (.333 x .666 x .333 x 3) x (13) = 2.8. So in two rounds of firing a 5 point shoota makes its points back. 4 rounds if it's advancing.
Sorry. but that math is completely disconnected from reality. Without advancing, shooting for 3-4 turns averages a single dead marine. The expected turns shooting of a big shoota in a boys mob is about one turn, if its lucky it gets green tided and lives for a second, afterwards it's usually dead or in combat until dead. You also trade away the shoota for your big shoota, so the value of the upgrade is even lower.
Well. . . . if you're expecting to advance with your Boyz every game, then maybe don't pay the points for the Big Shoota. Weapons aren't necessarily costed around specific tactics. I'm seeing that 3 big Shootas at 15 points can return a 13 point kill every round if you are playing to it. That doesn't seem so bad.
Also, why is the math off?
One of the problems is that in order to get three big shootas you need to take a lot of points worth of Boyz with either sluggas and choppas or regular shootas, and those need to get close to the enemy to be worth taking so more often than not we end up advancing them.
Remember how in previous editions it used to be frustrating to have an anti-tank weapon in a Tac Squad because you were either wasting the bolters or wasting the upgraded weapon due to not being able to split fire? The problem with Big Shootas and Boyz is kind of like that, only instead of being due to split fire rules it's more due to being in a unit that likes to be in close, preferably in melee where the Big Shoota is wasted.
Yeah, we can just not take Big Shootas, but that's kind of the point. There's not a reason to take them and that's a shame. Most armies have similar problems, this thread is just about Orks and Big Shootas in particular.
Insectum7 wrote: 12" extra range, especially at the 24-36 band is definitely not useless. Since the Shootas are assault, they can still shoot while advancing too. Sure, it's a 6+, but shots are shots.
Shots that do not hit anything are 5 points for nothing. The chance of them not hitting anything is almost 60%, the chance of not doing a single point of damage to a space marine is 80%. Granted, space marines are terrible targets for a big shoota, but "shots are shots" is only valuable in the world of averages where you kill .222 marines per turn. In reality a big shoota kills a marine every five games or so and wastes your points during all those other games.
I think the more interesting question is: "What targets do you shoot big shootas at to get a good points return." Which I think is:
(chance to wound) x (point per wound of target) - - - - - vs. Space Marines (.333 x .666 x .333 x 3) x (13) = 2.8. So in two rounds of firing a 5 point shoota makes its points back. 4 rounds if it's advancing.
Sorry. but that math is completely disconnected from reality. Without advancing, shooting for 3-4 turns averages a single dead marine. The expected turns shooting of a big shoota in a boys mob is about one turn, if its lucky it gets green tided and lives for a second, afterwards it's usually dead or in combat until dead. You also trade away the shoota for your big shoota, so the value of the upgrade is even lower.
Well. . . . if you're expecting to advance with your Boyz every game, then maybe don't pay the points for the Big Shoota. Weapons aren't necessarily costed around specific tactics. I'm seeing that 3 big Shootas at 15 points can return a 13 point kill every round if you are playing to it. That doesn't seem so bad.
Also, why is the math off?
One of the problems is that in order to get three big shootas you need to take a lot of points worth of Boyz with either sluggas and choppas or regular shootas, and those need to get close to the enemy to be worth taking so more often than not we end up advancing them.
Remember how in previous editions it used to be frustrating to have an anti-tank weapon in a Tac Squad because you were either wasting the bolters or wasting the upgraded weapon due to not being able to split fire? The problem with Big Shootas and Boyz is kind of like that, only instead of being due to split fire rules it's more due to being in a unit that likes to be in close, preferably in melee where the Big Shoota is wasted.
Yeah, we can just not take Big Shootas, but that's kind of the point. There's not a reason to take them and that's a shame. Most armies have similar problems, this thread is just about Orks and Big Shootas in particular.
Ok, so I'm afraid I am not up to par on my knowledge of Orks, currently. But I definitely recall big mobs of shoota boys being pretty awesome in earlier editions. Is this not the case anymore?
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JNAProductions wrote: 3 Big Shootas are 9 shots. With DDD, that's 7/2 hits.
Against MEQs, that's 7/3 wounds.
7/9 failed saves.
So, assuming the Marines aren't Ravenguard or Iron Hands, aren't in cover, and the Boyz focus fire on one squad, they'll usually kill a Marine per turn with their Big Shootas. Which isn't even a full return on points, and it's targeting someone who's generally considered overcosted.
Compare to a Storm Bolter-4 shots get 8/3 hits, 4/3 wounds, and 4/9 failed saves against a MEQ. That's nearly THREE TIMES its cost in terms of damage dealt! Clearly, Storm Bolters are ridiculously OP and should cost at least six points.
Storm Bolters, unless wielded by a Terminator or something similar only get 4 shots standing still, or within 12, so it's not really a comparable scenario, imo.
Except that, to use a Shoota Boy Mob, you lose one of the advantages of a Big Shoota entirely (range) and you're also replacing 2 S4 shots with 3 S5.
For reference, a mob of 30 Shoota Boyz does, to MEQs... 60 S4 shots 70/3 hits 35/3 wounds 35/9 or just under 4 dead MEQs.
Replace three Shootas with Big Shootas, and you get 54 S4 shots 21 hits 21/2 wounds 7/2 or 3.5 dead MEQs
Plus...
9 S5 shots 7/2 hits 7/3 wounds 7/9 or just under 1 dead MEQ
Totaled, that's 77/18 dead MEQs from the Big Shoota Mob, as compared to 70/18 from the regular mob.
That's, surprisingly, EXACTLY a 10% improvement in shooting power against MEQs. Like... Legitimately surprised, didn't expect that to be that neat. And for about a 7% increase in points.
But, compare that to (again) a Storm Bolter. For 2 Points, you increase a Tactical Squad's shooting power by 20%. That's twice as effective an upgrade as the three Big Shootas, for less than half the percentage increase in points.
Edit:
Insectum7 wrote: Storm Bolters, unless wielded by a Terminator or something similar only get 4 shots standing still, or within 12, so it's not really a comparable scenario, imo.
If you assume the Big Shoota is always not Advancing, despite being "better" for being Assault, I can damn well assume that Marines (who love to castle up) are standing still.
Edit II: Oh, also, even on the move AND at 12"-24", a Storm Bolter still earns one and a half times its points back shooting at a stock Tac Marine. Which is better than can be said for Big Shootas under OPTIMAL circumstances.
Insectum7 wrote: 12" extra range, especially at the 24-36 band is definitely not useless. Since the Shootas are assault, they can still shoot while advancing too. Sure, it's a 6+, but shots are shots.
Shots that do not hit anything are 5 points for nothing. The chance of them not hitting anything is almost 60%, the chance of not doing a single point of damage to a space marine is 80%. Granted, space marines are terrible targets for a big shoota, but "shots are shots" is only valuable in the world of averages where you kill .222 marines per turn. In reality a big shoota kills a marine every five games or so and wastes your points during all those other games.
I think the more interesting question is: "What targets do you shoot big shootas at to get a good points return." Which I think is:
(chance to wound) x (point per wound of target) - - - - - vs. Space Marines (.333 x .666 x .333 x 3) x (13) = 2.8. So in two rounds of firing a 5 point shoota makes its points back. 4 rounds if it's advancing.
Sorry. but that math is completely disconnected from reality. Without advancing, shooting for 3-4 turns averages a single dead marine. The expected turns shooting of a big shoota in a boys mob is about one turn, if its lucky it gets green tided and lives for a second, afterwards it's usually dead or in combat until dead. You also trade away the shoota for your big shoota, so the value of the upgrade is even lower.
Well. . . . if you're expecting to advance with your Boyz every game, then maybe don't pay the points for the Big Shoota. Weapons aren't necessarily costed around specific tactics. I'm seeing that 3 big Shootas at 15 points can return a 13 point kill every round if you are playing to it. That doesn't seem so bad.
Also, why is the math off?
One of the problems is that in order to get three big shootas you need to take a lot of points worth of Boyz with either sluggas and choppas or regular shootas, and those need to get close to the enemy to be worth taking so more often than not we end up advancing them.
Remember how in previous editions it used to be frustrating to have an anti-tank weapon in a Tac Squad because you were either wasting the bolters or wasting the upgraded weapon due to not being able to split fire? The problem with Big Shootas and Boyz is kind of like that, only instead of being due to split fire rules it's more due to being in a unit that likes to be in close, preferably in melee where the Big Shoota is wasted.
Yeah, we can just not take Big Shootas, but that's kind of the point. There's not a reason to take them and that's a shame. Most armies have similar problems, this thread is just about Orks and Big Shootas in particular.
Ok, so I'm afraid I am not up to par on my knowledge of Orks, currently. But I definitely recall big mobs of shoota boys being pretty awesome in earlier editions. Is this not the case anymore?
Shoota Boyz are good, but I think they're still a unit best suited to running at the enemy and getting into melee. Shootas have a short range, and Boyz are pretty good at melee even without a Choppa. I think Shoota Boyz are a melee unit that trades what is often overkill melee damage for a small amount of ranged damage.
JNAProductions wrote: Except that, to use a Shoota Boy Mob, you lose one of the advantages of a Big Shoota entirely (range) and you're also replacing 2 S4 shots with 3 S5.
For reference, a mob of 30 Shoota Boyz does, to MEQs...
60 S4 shots
70/3 hits
35/3 wounds
35/9 or just under 4 dead MEQs.
Replace three Shootas with Big Shootas, and you get
54 S4 shots
21 hits
21/2 wounds
7/2 or 3.5 dead MEQs
Plus...
9 S5 shots
7/2 hits
7/3 wounds
7/9 or just under 1 dead MEQ
Totaled, that's 77/18 dead MEQs from the Big Shoota Mob, as compared to 70/18 from the regular mob.
That's, surprisingly, EXACTLY a 10% improvement in shooting power against MEQs. Like... Legitimately surprised, didn't expect that to be that neat. And for about a 7% increase in points.
But, compare that to (again) a Storm Bolter. For 2 Points, you increase a Tactical Squad's shooting power by 20%. That's twice as effective an upgrade as the three Big Shootas, for less than half the percentage increase in points.
Edit:
Insectum7 wrote: Storm Bolters, unless wielded by a Terminator or something similar only get 4 shots standing still, or within 12, so it's not really a comparable scenario, imo.
If you assume the Big Shoota is always not Advancing, despite being "better" for being Assault, I can damn well assume that Marines (who love to castle up) are standing still.
Edit II: Oh, also, even on the move AND at 12"-24", a Storm Bolter still earns one and a half times its points back shooting at a stock Tac Marine. Which is better than can be said for Big Shootas under OPTIMAL circumstances.
You don't lose the advantage of range if you're planning on moving the unit forward and bringing the other guns to bear. The enemy line is not 1 dimensional, it has depth. The Big Shoota can hit targets beyond the front line, and those might be more valuable targets to spatter with S5 shots. As noted, the unit doesn't all need to fire at the same thing.
The second observation is that you've shown that the firepower output is at a better damage-to-cost ratio than the unit without big shootas, so that seems like a plus, regardless of the weapon-to-weapon cost comparison to the Storm Bolter.
As said before, weapon costs from army to army don't translate directly. I wonder how the points of model+weapon compare between the two, for starters, and even that isn't really a true metric either.
It seems like you've potentially got a mixed-role unit that leans heavily towards aggression and CC, and you can spend a few more points to make said unit a bit more point-efficient at it's secondary shooting role. Which is sort of the opposite of a Tac Sqauad, a Tac Squad being a mixed-role unit with an emphasis on defensive shooting, that can also spend a few points to be a little more efficient at it's CC role. Something like that. In which case the Big Shoota is sort of in the same spot as a Power Sword. It can add a little, but is not at all necessary to the squad for it to fulfill its primary role.
I did a little more math and it looks to me that a Big Shoota is amusingly about as point efficient at shooting a Castellan as it is shooting a Tac Marine, by virtue of its S5.
Eonfuzz wrote: Quick, someone get the pitchforks! Xenomancer is posting inane ramblings again!
Yes pointing out the inferior weapons cost more in a lot of cases is literal insanity. How many points should a devourer cost is a BS is 2 points? 1 or 0 - it is vastly inferior. Weapons ARE NOT costed based on the bs of a unit using it or a units ability to move and shoot it. The only place that really happens is in the guard codex and a few other rare conditions. A 5 point BS isn't even close to a problem compared to other bad weapons. What about the melta gun? Or the assault cannon? or the HB? Even the hurricane bolter is very overcosted compared to a storm bolter. The OP title question is. What is a fair price? What is a fair price if you don't compare it to similar weapons? Unless you think orks should just pay less for their weapons because they are having such a hard time already outshooting premium shooting factions.
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JNAProductions wrote: 3 Big Shootas are 9 shots. With DDD, that's 7/2 hits.
Against MEQs, that's 7/3 wounds.
7/9 failed saves.
So, assuming the Marines aren't Ravenguard or Iron Hands, aren't in cover, and the Boyz focus fire on one squad, they'll usually kill a Marine per turn with their Big Shootas. Which isn't even a full return on points, and it's targeting someone who's generally considered overcosted.
Compare to a Storm Bolter-4 shots get 8/3 hits, 4/3 wounds, and 4/9 failed saves against a MEQ. That's nearly THREE TIMES its cost in terms of damage dealt! Clearly, Storm Bolters are ridiculously OP and should cost at least six points.
You should compare their ability to kill orks. Not ability against each other. Consdiering the range advantage and the fact storm bolters typically only get 4 shots at range 12 plus the assault rule on the BS which is actually amazing in an evil suns army. Nor can you load up tactical marines with storm bolters ether. It is more of a specialist weapon. If you could put a storm bolter on every marine ofc you would. See how that works out for GK though...it really isn't effective. Unless you are deathwatch - in which case you are spending 18-20 points per model to get that.
Eonfuzz wrote: Quick, someone get the pitchforks! Xenomancer is posting inane ramblings again!
Yes pointing out the inferior weapons cost more in a lot of cases is literal insanity. How many points should a devourer cost is a BS is 2 points? 1 or 0 - it is vastly inferior. Weapons ARE NOT costed based on the bs of a unit using it or a units ability to move and shoot it. The only place that really happens is in the guard codex and a few other rare conditions. A 5 point BS isn't even close to a problem compared to other bad weapons. What about the melta gun? Or the assault cannon? or the HB? Even the hurricane bolter is very overcosted compared to a storm bolter. The OP title question is. What is a fair price? What is a fair price if you don't compare it to similar weapons? Unless you think orks should just pay less for their weapons because they are having such a hard time already outshooting premium shooting factions.
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JNAProductions wrote: 3 Big Shootas are 9 shots. With DDD, that's 7/2 hits. Against MEQs, that's 7/3 wounds. 7/9 failed saves.
So, assuming the Marines aren't Ravenguard or Iron Hands, aren't in cover, and the Boyz focus fire on one squad, they'll usually kill a Marine per turn with their Big Shootas. Which isn't even a full return on points, and it's targeting someone who's generally considered overcosted.
Compare to a Storm Bolter-4 shots get 8/3 hits, 4/3 wounds, and 4/9 failed saves against a MEQ. That's nearly THREE TIMES its cost in terms of damage dealt! Clearly, Storm Bolters are ridiculously OP and should cost at least six points.
You should compare their ability to kill orks. Not ability against each other. Consdiering the range advantage and the fact storm bolters typically only get 4 shots at range 12 plus the assault rule on the BS which is actually amazing in an evil suns army. Nor can you load up tactical marines with storm bolters ether. It is more of a specialist weapon. If you could put a storm bolter on every marine ofc you would. See how that works out for GK though...it really isn't effective. Unless you are deathwatch - in which case you are spending 18-20 points per model to get that.
Just to be clear, we're allowed to assume that the Orks are one specific subfaction, taking an upgrade worth nearly another entire model, and not locked in combat for any significant period of time... But we're NOT allowed to assume Marines are so much as standing still?
And why should we compare Orks to Orks and MEQs to MEQs? But, I'll run the math against Orks, sure.
Eonfuzz wrote: Quick, someone get the pitchforks! Xenomancer is posting inane ramblings again!
Yes pointing out the inferior weapons cost more in a lot of cases is literal insanity. How many points should a devourer cost is a BS is 2 points? 1 or 0 - it is vastly inferior. Weapons ARE NOT costed based on the bs of a unit using it or a units ability to move and shoot it. The only place that really happens is in the guard codex and a few other rare conditions. A 5 point BS isn't even close to a problem compared to other bad weapons. What about the melta gun? Or the assault cannon? or the HB? Even the hurricane bolter is very overcosted compared to a storm bolter. The OP title question is. What is a fair price? What is a fair price if you don't compare it to similar weapons? Unless you think orks should just pay less for their weapons because they are having such a hard time already outshooting premium shooting factions.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
JNAProductions wrote: 3 Big Shootas are 9 shots. With DDD, that's 7/2 hits.
Against MEQs, that's 7/3 wounds.
7/9 failed saves.
So, assuming the Marines aren't Ravenguard or Iron Hands, aren't in cover, and the Boyz focus fire on one squad, they'll usually kill a Marine per turn with their Big Shootas. Which isn't even a full return on points, and it's targeting someone who's generally considered overcosted.
Compare to a Storm Bolter-4 shots get 8/3 hits, 4/3 wounds, and 4/9 failed saves against a MEQ. That's nearly THREE TIMES its cost in terms of damage dealt! Clearly, Storm Bolters are ridiculously OP and should cost at least six points.
You should compare their ability to kill orks. Not ability against each other. Consdiering the range advantage and the fact storm bolters typically only get 4 shots at range 12 plus the assault rule on the BS which is actually amazing in an evil suns army. Nor can you load up tactical marines with storm bolters ether. It is more of a specialist weapon. If you could put a storm bolter on every marine ofc you would. See how that works out for GK though...it really isn't effective. Unless you are deathwatch - in which case you are spending 18-20 points per model to get that.
It's interesting how you seem to dodge all the points me and Jidmah have made already regarding how your attempts to equate with "Orks OP" = Big shootas cost is right/should be more expensive.
Honestly, you've embarrassed yourself enough already. I don't see why you adamantly continue to think big shootas shouldn't come down in price due to some chip on your shoulder regarding marines.
Eonfuzz wrote: Quick, someone get the pitchforks! Xenomancer is posting inane ramblings again!
Yes pointing out the inferior weapons cost more in a lot of cases is literal insanity. How many points should a devourer cost is a BS is 2 points? 1 or 0 - it is vastly inferior. Weapons ARE NOT costed based on the bs of a unit using it or a units ability to move and shoot it. The only place that really happens is in the guard codex and a few other rare conditions. A 5 point BS isn't even close to a problem compared to other bad weapons. What about the melta gun? Or the assault cannon? or the HB? Even the hurricane bolter is very overcosted compared to a storm bolter. The OP title question is. What is a fair price? What is a fair price if you don't compare it to similar weapons? Unless you think orks should just pay less for their weapons because they are having such a hard time already outshooting premium shooting factions.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
JNAProductions wrote: 3 Big Shootas are 9 shots. With DDD, that's 7/2 hits.
Against MEQs, that's 7/3 wounds.
7/9 failed saves.
So, assuming the Marines aren't Ravenguard or Iron Hands, aren't in cover, and the Boyz focus fire on one squad, they'll usually kill a Marine per turn with their Big Shootas. Which isn't even a full return on points, and it's targeting someone who's generally considered overcosted.
Compare to a Storm Bolter-4 shots get 8/3 hits, 4/3 wounds, and 4/9 failed saves against a MEQ. That's nearly THREE TIMES its cost in terms of damage dealt! Clearly, Storm Bolters are ridiculously OP and should cost at least six points.
You should compare their ability to kill orks. Not ability against each other. Consdiering the range advantage and the fact storm bolters typically only get 4 shots at range 12 plus the assault rule on the BS which is actually amazing in an evil suns army. Nor can you load up tactical marines with storm bolters ether. It is more of a specialist weapon. If you could put a storm bolter on every marine ofc you would. See how that works out for GK though...it really isn't effective. Unless you are deathwatch - in which case you are spending 18-20 points per model to get that.
Just to be clear, we're allowed to assume that the Orks are one specific subfaction, taking an upgrade worth nearly another entire model, and not locked in combat for any significant period of time... But we're NOT allowed to assume Marines are so much as standing still?
And why should we compare Orks to Orks and MEQs to MEQs? But, I'll run the math against Orks, sure.
Xenomancers wrote: Being in range at 24" without moving is not something that occurs turn 1 practically ever. Turn 2 maybe.
Eonfuzz's guide how to shoot stormbolters turn 1.
1. Place models on table
2. Shoot with models
In all seriousness, how do you not see that the Big Shoota statline is worse than a Stormbolter statline? Are you riding the Speshmarhyne train with only a one way ticket?
Lets assume it's a normal game, Ork Big Shootas are shooting and hitting on a 6+ because they advanced, Stormbolters are hitting on a 3+.
That's quite a lot less efficient. I was thinking of making a more mocking post, but lets do the maths for one last time.
3 shots * 1/6 = 0.5
DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA = 3 shots * 1/6 * 1/6 = 0.027
That's 0.527 hits from a 5 point weapon.
Now lets do a typical storm bolter turn 1
2 shots * 4/6 = 1.3333 shots
That's 1.3333 hits from a 2 point weapon.
But wait, lets do the assumption that you're using the "Counter Orks Faction" like a true waac 2 shots * 5/6 = 1.6666 shots
That's 1.6666 hits from a 2 point weapon.
BIG THUNK TIME Lets Balance the Storm Bolter as if an Ork was using it!!!!11!!
Okay so first we need to make it hit as much as an Ork does
Just for the prestige of firing a storm bolter, you get this ability:
Gun too big for your hands Storm bolter gets -2 to hit when firing
The best part is, at Rapid Fire 2 it's still more efficient than the big shooter while within half range, while also hitting a bunch more too!
Now that it's got a workable stat line we need to rejig the costs, lets make it cost 6 points because after all the dudes wielding it are tougher to kill, and it has +1 BS over your standard Big Shoota.
A 6 point storm bolter sounds great, we should advocate for that.
Eonfuzz wrote: Quick, someone get the pitchforks! Xenomancer is posting inane ramblings again!
Yes pointing out the inferior weapons cost more in a lot of cases is literal insanity. How many points should a devourer cost is a BS is 2 points? 1 or 0 - it is vastly inferior. Weapons ARE NOT costed based on the bs of a unit using it or a units ability to move and shoot it. The only place that really happens is in the guard codex and a few other rare conditions. A 5 point BS isn't even close to a problem compared to other bad weapons. What about the melta gun? Or the assault cannon? or the HB? Even the hurricane bolter is very overcosted compared to a storm bolter. The OP title question is. What is a fair price? What is a fair price if you don't compare it to similar weapons? Unless you think orks should just pay less for their weapons because they are having such a hard time already outshooting premium shooting factions.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
JNAProductions wrote: 3 Big Shootas are 9 shots. With DDD, that's 7/2 hits.
Against MEQs, that's 7/3 wounds.
7/9 failed saves.
So, assuming the Marines aren't Ravenguard or Iron Hands, aren't in cover, and the Boyz focus fire on one squad, they'll usually kill a Marine per turn with their Big Shootas. Which isn't even a full return on points, and it's targeting someone who's generally considered overcosted.
Compare to a Storm Bolter-4 shots get 8/3 hits, 4/3 wounds, and 4/9 failed saves against a MEQ. That's nearly THREE TIMES its cost in terms of damage dealt! Clearly, Storm Bolters are ridiculously OP and should cost at least six points.
You should compare their ability to kill orks. Not ability against each other. Consdiering the range advantage and the fact storm bolters typically only get 4 shots at range 12 plus the assault rule on the BS which is actually amazing in an evil suns army. Nor can you load up tactical marines with storm bolters ether. It is more of a specialist weapon. If you could put a storm bolter on every marine ofc you would. See how that works out for GK though...it really isn't effective. Unless you are deathwatch - in which case you are spending 18-20 points per model to get that.
It's interesting how you seem to dodge all the points me and Jidmah have made already regarding how your attempts to equate with "Orks OP" = Big shootas cost is right/should be more expensive.
Honestly, you've embarrassed yourself enough already. I don't see why you adamantly continue to think big shootas shouldn't come down in price due to some chip on your shoulder regarding marines.
You spouting nonsense doesn't embarrass me. I'd probably be embarrassed saying things like storm bolters should cost 6 points though.BS should not be more expensive. Maybe it should cost 4. I've demonstrated why. Using comparable weapons. Assault > Heavy. Str4 < Str 5. Dakka Dakka more or less mitigates thje bs 5 (it's kinda like bs 4.6 not that this really should mitigate the cost anyways - you pay points for your stats and weapons are completely seperate)
Stubber 2 points give it assault now it cost 3 give it str 5 now it costs 4. You know how much I'd pay to give some of my heavy weapons assault rule? Probably 20% to 30% more in some cases. You are taking things like that for granted.
So, you just agreed the Space Marine version of a Big Shoota is a drongo's dream?
You understand that "6 point gun" is mathematically superior to the Big Shoota? A storm bolter that gets -2 to hit AND +4 points is still better than a Big Shoota.
And yet you don't think the Big Shoota should go down in cost. What drivel.
Eonfuzz wrote: So, you just agreed the Space Marine version of a Big Shoota is a drongo's dream?
You understand that "6 point gun" is mathematically superior to the Big Shoota? A storm bolter that gets -2 to hit AND +4 points is still better than a Big Shoota.
And yet you don't think the Big Shoota should go down in cost. What drivel.
I have said the BS should go down in cost to 4. It should not cost 2 points. It's asinine to suggest that IMO.
Eonfuzz wrote: So, you just agreed the Space Marine version of a Big Shoota is a drongo's dream?
You understand that "6 point gun" is mathematically superior to the Big Shoota? A storm bolter that gets -2 to hit AND +4 points is still better than a Big Shoota.
And yet you don't think the Big Shoota should go down in cost. What drivel.
I have said the BS should go down in cost to 4. It should not cost 2 points. It's asinine to suggest that IMO.
Write out the maths that proves a Big Shoota is two times more efficient than a Storm Bolter LOL.
No. A big shoota on an ork is what? 11 points? You havn't even mad it to a marines base price yet. Plus you have to be a vet to take one at a minimum. That will be 16 points. Perhaps 16 point models should outshoot 11 point ones under ideal conditions.
You do know on the majority of setup armies start at least 24.00001 inches apart. Therefor you don't start in these ideal conditions.
Eonfuzz wrote: So, you just agreed the Space Marine version of a Big Shoota is a drongo's dream?
You understand that "6 point gun" is mathematically superior to the Big Shoota? A storm bolter that gets -2 to hit AND +4 points is still better than a Big Shoota.
And yet you don't think the Big Shoota should go down in cost. What drivel.
I have said the BS should go down in cost to 4. It should not cost 2 points. It's asinine to suggest that IMO.
Write out the maths that proves a Big Shoota is two times more efficient than a Storm Bolter LOL.
How efficient is the Storm bolter compared to the Big shoota if you advance?
Nuh uh, I aint doing the maths for you. It's already earlier in this thread and I know you don't listen to anything if it doesn't fit space marine one way train.
Eonfuzz wrote: Nuh uh, I aint doing the maths for you. It's already earlier in this thread and I know you don't listen to anything if it doesn't fit space marine one way train.
The answer is easy. You can't advance and shoot a storm bolter. Also - a bolter is technically twice as efficient as a shoota. So should the bolter cost more? It is currently free.
Eonfuzz wrote: Nuh uh, I aint doing the maths for you. It's already earlier in this thread and I know you don't listen to anything if it doesn't fit space marine one way train.
The answer is easy. You can't advance and shoot a storm bolter. Also - a bolter is technically twice as efficient as a shoota. So should the bolter cost more? It is currently free.
Name one infantry unit with storm bolters, that you'd ever advance.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, if you want the number simulations to include Dakka Dakka Dakka you may aswell include the Space Marine Reroll auras lmao, as if they're never there.
Thinking that no self respecting Mob Boss would allow some runt to have a bigger weapon than him. Ergo BS should be free option, one per unit, on the Boss.
But then, I think the Ork Boyz entry should have a ‘Choppa only’ option.
Moriarty wrote: Thinking that no self respecting Mob Boss would allow some runt to have a bigger weapon than him. Ergo BS should be free option, one per unit, on the Boss.
But then, I think the Ork Boyz entry should have a ‘Choppa only’ option.
A Nob can take a Kustom Shoota* or Kombi-Shoota, which is different than a Big Shoota but no less snazzy.
*Index
We used to be able to give Big Shootas to Nobz, but IIRC they were really expensive.
I do wish they'd either go back to being able to buy 3x special weapons no matter the unit size or switch to one special weapon per 5 (the box actually supports that).
I know that double choppa/double slugga can be done for a few models per unit, but not the whole mob without doing a little cutting.
Eonfuzz wrote: Nuh uh, I aint doing the maths for you. It's already earlier in this thread and I know you don't listen to anything if it doesn't fit space marine one way train.
The answer is easy. You can't advance and shoot a storm bolter. Also - a bolter is technically twice as efficient as a shoota. So should the bolter cost more? It is currently free.
Name one infantry unit with storm bolters, that you'd ever advance.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, if you want the number simulations to include Dakka Dakka Dakka you may aswell include the Space Marine Reroll auras lmao, as if they're never there.
the csm squad of chosen from the black legion, when you want to try the trait before just ignoring it
I'm trying to follow the logic here as to why have people become so looked in on a stormbolter vrs a big shoota as a comparison it's not even close to having the same role.
It's an Assualt Heavy Bolter,
Guard pay 8 points on a heavy weapon on BS4+
Orks pay 5 points on an assualt weapon on BS5+
Guard pay 8 points for a heavy bolter move and hit on 5+
Orks pay 5 points for a big shoota move and hit on 5+
Guard advance and can't shoot
Orks Advance and hit on 6's
That single Ap-1 cost 3 points
That doesn't make a big shoota look super over costed?
Ice_can wrote: I'm trying to follow the logic here as to why have people become so looked in on a stormbolter vrs a big shoota as a comparison it's not even close to having the same role.
It's an Assualt Heavy Bolter,
Guard pay 8 points on a heavy weapon on BS4+
Orks pay 5 points on an assualt weapon on BS5+
Guard pay 8 points for a heavy bolter move and hit on 5+
Orks pay 5 points for a big shoota move and hit on 5+
Guard advance and can't shoot
Orks Advance and hit on 6's
That single Ap-1 cost 3 points
That doesn't make a big shoota look super over costed?
issue is, the big shota looks not overcosted compared to a Heavy bolter because the heavy bolter is overcosted aswell.
Also application, again. the Big shoota is more like a souped up heavy stubber, which at 2 pts is actually a decent gun, personally don't belive +1 S is worth 3pts more.
Ice_can wrote: I'm trying to follow the logic here as to why have people become so looked in on a stormbolter vrs a big shoota as a comparison it's not even close to having the same role.
It's an Assualt Heavy Bolter,
Guard pay 8 points on a heavy weapon on BS4+
Orks pay 5 points on an assualt weapon on BS5+
Guard pay 8 points for a heavy bolter move and hit on 5+
Orks pay 5 points for a big shoota move and hit on 5+
Guard advance and can't shoot
Orks Advance and hit on 6's
That single Ap-1 cost 3 points
That doesn't make a big shoota look super over costed?
issue is, the big shota looks not overcosted compared to a Heavy bolter because the heavy bolter is overcosted aswell.
Also application, again. the Big shoota is more like a souped up heavy stubber, which at 2 pts is actually a decent gun, personally don't belive +1 S is worth 3pts more.
Marine's pay 10 points per heavy bolter that is fun.
Ok a heavy bolter is overcosted but by how much then?
Is a heacy bolter a 6 point or 7 point weapon or 5? You could then argue that a big shoot should be 1 or 2 points less but making it 2pts like some are calling for is a gw level overcorrection
Ice_can wrote: I'm trying to follow the logic here as to why have people become so looked in on a stormbolter vrs a big shoota as a comparison it's not even close to having the same role.
It's an Assualt Heavy Bolter,
Guard pay 8 points on a heavy weapon on BS4+
Orks pay 5 points on an assualt weapon on BS5+
Guard pay 8 points for a heavy bolter move and hit on 5+
Orks pay 5 points for a big shoota move and hit on 5+
Guard advance and can't shoot
Orks Advance and hit on 6's
That single Ap-1 cost 3 points
That doesn't make a big shoota look super over costed?
issue is, the big shota looks not overcosted compared to a Heavy bolter because the heavy bolter is overcosted aswell.
Also application, again. the Big shoota is more like a souped up heavy stubber, which at 2 pts is actually a decent gun, personally don't belive +1 S is worth 3pts more.
Marine's pay 10 points per heavy bolter that is fun.
Ok a heavy bolter is overcosted but by how much then?
Is a heacy bolter a 6 point or 7 point weapon or 5? You could then argue that a big shoot should be 1 or 2 points less but making it 2pts like some are calling for is a gw level overcorrection
CSM do too pay 10 pts / HB.
And how often do you see them? Especially when the Reaper chaincannon has 2 more shots for the same price for one equipment slot?
I'll refer to the Heavy stubber, it's targets are the same, light squishy infantry, same applies to the Big shoota, same to the heavy bolter, same to the Reaper.
The reaper has one significant advantage, it is in a dex that can double it's rate and a singular weapon, meaning saturation is easily achievable. This is what makes the reaper work. (and also the reason for the rather steep pricing but atleast it is playable)
The heavy bolter and big shootason the other hand suffer for beeing too expensive and lacking saturation options. Meaning that for the output of 1 reaper, you need 2 Heavy bolters in the same squad + additional 2/3'rds of one to just equate the ammount of shots. 1 Havoc with reaper is 34 pts. 2. havocs alone are 28 pts + 20 for the heavy bolters. And we have not yet talked about VotWL which would make Heavy bolters actually decent against medium tanks, were it not for the fact that reapers again stack up better.
Ig has another issue. They pay a fairer price for the heavy bolter, but pay more for a heavy bolter then for a mortar. Which beats the heavy bolter in terms of range and LOS usage. (also averages more shots and with certain traits alot more of them)
Targets are again the same. So why pay 3 pts more for +1 S and -1 AP when you can generate more shots overall?
Now the heavy stubber shows up. And for regiments that can field them (or armies ) on line infantry, the job is the same. Now however you pay 1/8th for the equal ammount of shots, one less S and no armor penetration. The targets you want to shoot with it however remain the same, and virtually T3 targets (75% off all infantry really) treat it the same as the heavy bolter.
It isn't even a competition there.
This is also why i belive, if the stubber is worth 2 pts, which it is, the Big shoota should be 3 and the heavy bolter 4 /5 respectively. And precedence was created by the heavy stubber itself, which got it's price cut in half.
I have the feeling that we are tackling the topic from the wrong prespective. The problem with the big shoota is not it's cost IMO. As I see it, the Q should be "what is the BShoota meant to be?"
Orks don't have many options in terms of equipment. Look at the trukk, currently the ONLY (and lonely) gun it can take is the BShoota. Usually, they are reduced to anti-vehicle (rokkits and blastas) or anti-infantry (bshoota). Both rokkits and blastas arguably manage to perform. Now, bshootas don't. Their problem is the fire volume/point cost/number of shootas allowed.
Two ways to solve the problem.
A) Lower points=more bshootas.Yeah but... reducing it's cost will not increase the unit's specific fire output as GW provides rules ONLY for models included in each box. I might be wrong, but I don't think they will ever allow more than 1bshoota per 10 boys. One per truck. 4 per battlewagon. That effectively capes the number of shoots as you will only have certain number of units.
B) changing the bshoota profile. Keep the unitary cost and increase the number of shoots to 5. Yes, assault 5 s5 ap0 d1. This change has implications that synergize better with both infantry blobs and vehicles. 4bshootas may be worth taking on a battlewagon as they would output 20shoots. That can clear some chaff.
Arguably a similar approach can be applied to super shootas. 2-3pts per shoot would be a fair arrangement, making then 7 pts instead of 10....OR....increase the number of shoots to 4.
I think your on to something it's the profile that's wrong more than the cost.
1. Insufficient volume of shots
2. Excessive strength. S4 won't matter vrs a large chunk of the field but being S5 makes a doubles your wounding rate against T8&9.
3. Still to few charictoristics have been moved beyond 0-9.
Insectum7 wrote: Well. . . . if you're expecting to advance with your Boyz every game, then maybe don't pay the points for the Big Shoota. Weapons aren't necessarily costed around specific tactics.
There are two way to run boyz - if you pick any other way they just end up dead.
1) Green tide. You have as many boyz as possible and cover the table in them, winning the game through table control. In this case big shootas lower the number of wounds you have while not actually providing the benefit of lowering the damage taken as they are usually killing screening units. While the boyz mobs in the back could probably shoot their big shootas mutliple turns, you are working against the goal of bringing too many bodies to shoot. Against a properly prepared army, the green tide runs out of boyz by turn 4 and then relies on the VP they scored until then to win the game. There is no wiggle room for buying upgrades that do not further your goal.
2) Deep strike them. Da jump means they are hiding out of sight and/or range in the back of your deployment zone, with tellyporta they are off the board completely. The shoota mob drops, unloads on some target and then charges. If they succeed in charging and arrest something, they will continue to fight for the next turns, hopefully getting out of that combat to repeat the ordeal. If they fail their charge or can't arrest something, they will be gone by your next turn.
Running up the board with some boyz that will then murder whatever they touch is no longer happening. You'll drop below the 20 model threshold before reaching your target and then bounce off a screening unit.
So it's more like the big shoota is costed around a specific tactic that orks simply never do.
I'm seeing that 3 big Shootas at 15 points can return a 13 point kill every round if you are playing to it. That doesn't seem so bad.
That's a tactical marine though, which is considered to be too expensive by most. If you compare it to an intercessor instead, you'll end up with 30 points to kill a 17 point model. That does seem bad.
Also, why is the math off?
I didn't say off, I said disconnected from reality. There simply is no ork unit that could take a big shoota and sit somewhere for multiple turns and shoot them. It's kind of like powerfists for marine or IG sergeants. They will never pick a PF to fight characters and vehicles like a boss nob would, because their primary role is to sit back and shoot.
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Ice_can wrote: I'm trying to follow the logic here as to why have people become so looked in on a stormbolter vrs a big shoota as a comparison it's not even close to having the same role.
It's an Assualt Heavy Bolter,
Guard pay 8 points on a heavy weapon on BS4+
Orks pay 5 points on an assualt weapon on BS5+
Guard pay 8 points for a heavy bolter move and hit on 5+
Orks pay 5 points for a big shoota move and hit on 5+
Guard advance and can't shoot
Orks Advance and hit on 6's
That single Ap-1 cost 3 points
That doesn't make a big shoota look super over costed?
Your reasoning is not wrong (and probably how GW got to 5pts big shoota), but orks simply aren't guard. There are no artillery pieces in the back doing the heavy lifting, no super-durable knights or baneblades to destroy hard targets from across the board with ease and guardsmen are both cheaper and more survivable than ork boyz. We have lots of other stuff we can do, but almost everything involves being within 12"-24".
In short, orks do different things during a battle than IG do, therefore weapons need to be priced according to the context of their codex.
So sample size of 2 games, but I decided to track points removed by big shootas on my green tide list and my battlewagon list last night.
Battlewagons against guard returned an avrage of ~1.5 guardsmen each (3 bone breakers, 3 big shootas each) 3 battlewagons 3 big shootas each. 90 points in big shootas. Used hwo they get used in my list as helping clear screens they did the job acceptibly. 18 big shootas cost 90 points. they removed 31 guardsmen so 124 points. probably worth while. they did clear and finish off screens allowing units once they got out to assault past remnants of lines.
next match vs GSC use foot boys and a 2 trukks. trukks wanted to advance to get nobz up. neither one even got a hit before the trukk blew up. wasted 10 points. 180 ork boyz 6 units of 30, 18 big shootas. Again they were constantly advancing to get stuck in. 90 points in shootas. first turn removed 4 neophytes, turn 2 removed 2 neophyte, turn 3 removed 2 neophites. so literally 100 points in big shootas on boys did 40 points of GSC. In this case the first volley helped get off one charge. the others failed to remove enough of a screens to get around.
I usually skip big shootas on boyz and yea this experience of tracking affirms that decision. in my personal type of battlewagon and buggy list though they seem to dhave a place. will try a match against a space marine army next week to track if i remember
**note that same 90 points could have been 5 lootas which probably would have done more damage but I like my themed lists so in BW and vehicle list I have no infantry starting on the board. So even in this use I am slightly gimping myself for the fun of all mech
Ice_can wrote: 2. Excessive strength. S4 won't matter vrs a large chunk of the field but being S5 makes a doubles your wounding rate against T8&9.
As shown in the math earlier, the chance of wounding a T8 3+ model with a big shoota is so low that doubling it still makes it no more than a last ditch effort to get lucky.
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G00fySmiley wrote: So sample size of 2 games, but I decided to track points removed by big shootas on my green tide list and my battlewagon list last night.
Battlewagons against guard returned an avrage of ~1.5 guardsmen each (3 bone breakers, 3 big shootas each) 3 battlewagons 3 big shootas each. 90 points in big shootas. Used hwo they get used in my list as helping clear screens they did the job acceptibly. 18 big shootas cost 90 points. they removed 31 guardsmen so 124 points. probably worth while. they did clear and finish off screens allowing units once they got out to assault past remnants of lines.
next match vs GSC use foot boys and a 2 trukks. trukks wanted to advance to get nobz up. neither one even got a hit before the trukk blew up. wasted 10 points. 180 ork boyz 6 units of 30, 18 big shootas. Again they were constantly advancing to get stuck in. 90 points in shootas. first turn removed 4 neophytes, turn 2 removed 2 neophyte, turn 3 removed 2 neophites. so literally 100 points in big shootas on boys did 40 points of GSC. In this case the first volley helped get off one charge. the others failed to remove enough of a screens to get around.
I usually skip big shootas on boyz and yea this experience of tracking affirms that decision. in my personal type of battlewagon and buggy list though they seem to dhave a place. will try a match against a space marine army next week to track if i remember
**note that same 90 points could have been 5 lootas which probably would have done more damage but I like my themed lists so in BW and vehicle list I have no infantry starting on the board. So even in this use I am slightly gimping myself for the fun of all mech
It's amazing how Marines should have discounts because they have to take ablaitive wounds - so putting a single heavy/weapon squad per 5 guys should be at a huge discount.
But Orkz only need 10 doods per upgraded weapon, so should pay full price!
Personally, I think Big Shoota is probably worth ~3points on the Ork platform. It has a good profile, but isn't easy to leverage.
(Although I might still be biased vs Ork small arms from when cc-kitted Ork Boyz were outshooting my Dire Avengers in a firefight, point-per-point... Gotta love the Index pricing...)
Ice_can wrote: 2. Excessive strength. S4 won't matter vrs a large chunk of the field but being S5 makes a doubles your wounding rate against T8&9.
As shown in the math earlier, the chance of wounding a T8 3+ model with a big shoota is so low that doubling it still makes it no more than a last ditch effort to get lucky.
Except your missing the point entirely.
I'm not saying that big shoots are good or should be good against T8 units.
The issue is by being S5 instead of a S4 weapon GW is pricing it as being usable against T8 unit's, arguably rightly so.
Making Big shootas and Heacy bolters Heavy 5 S4 weapons would make them far more anti hoard like they should be and mean they arn't paying a points cost for their extra stats that improve their sub optimal performance.
It's about clarity of design and understanding the mechanics of the game to be able to optimise the design. Something GW has got wrong multiple times in 8th edition.
Eonfuzz wrote: Nuh uh, I aint doing the maths for you. It's already earlier in this thread and I know you don't listen to anything if it doesn't fit space marine one way train.
The answer is easy. You can't advance and shoot a storm bolter. Also - a bolter is technically twice as efficient as a shoota. So should the bolter cost more? It is currently free.
Name one infantry unit with storm bolters, that you'd ever advance.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, if you want the number simulations to include Dakka Dakka Dakka you may aswell include the Space Marine Reroll auras lmao, as if they're never there.
Dominions. Battle Sisters. Wolf Guard variants.
I already offered graphs comparing Storm Bolters to Big Shootas. All things considered, I'd say the Big Shoota is slightly better/more versatile, but they're otherwise similar weapons. I think 3 points is probably the fair price of a Big Shoota.
Eonfuzz wrote: Nuh uh, I aint doing the maths for you. It's already earlier in this thread and I know you don't listen to anything if it doesn't fit space marine one way train.
The answer is easy. You can't advance and shoot a storm bolter. Also - a bolter is technically twice as efficient as a shoota. So should the bolter cost more? It is currently free.
Name one infantry unit with storm bolters, that you'd ever advance.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, if you want the number simulations to include Dakka Dakka Dakka you may aswell include the Space Marine Reroll auras lmao, as if they're never there.
Dominions. Battle Sisters. Wolf Guard variants.
I already offered graphs comparing Storm Bolters to Big Shootas. All things considered, I'd say the Big Shoota is slightly better/more versatile, but they're otherwise similar weapons. I think 3 points is probably the fair price of a Big Shoota.
So my 3 pts estimation can therethically be backed by math.
Nice to know.
Eonfuzz wrote: Nuh uh, I aint doing the maths for you. It's already earlier in this thread and I know you don't listen to anything if it doesn't fit space marine one way train.
The answer is easy. You can't advance and shoot a storm bolter. Also - a bolter is technically twice as efficient as a shoota. So should the bolter cost more? It is currently free.
Name one infantry unit with storm bolters, that you'd ever advance.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, if you want the number simulations to include Dakka Dakka Dakka you may aswell include the Space Marine Reroll auras lmao, as if they're never there.
Dominions. Battle Sisters. Wolf Guard variants.
I already offered graphs comparing Storm Bolters to Big Shootas. All things considered, I'd say the Big Shoota is slightly better/more versatile, but they're otherwise similar weapons. I think 3 points is probably the fair price of a Big Shoota.
So my 3 pts estimation can therethically be backed by math.
Nice to know.
I have some simulations to produce the inverse CDFs on the first page of this thread. I think 3 points is pretty much a fair cost. Technically it's probably like 2.6 or something, but you can't have 2/3 of a point and it rounds to 3.
Eonfuzz wrote: Nuh uh, I aint doing the maths for you. It's already earlier in this thread and I know you don't listen to anything if it doesn't fit space marine one way train.
The answer is easy. You can't advance and shoot a storm bolter. Also - a bolter is technically twice as efficient as a shoota. So should the bolter cost more? It is currently free.
Name one infantry unit with storm bolters, that you'd ever advance.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, if you want the number simulations to include Dakka Dakka Dakka you may aswell include the Space Marine Reroll auras lmao, as if they're never there.
Dominions. Battle Sisters. Wolf Guard variants.
I already offered graphs comparing Storm Bolters to Big Shootas. All things considered, I'd say the Big Shoota is slightly better/more versatile, but they're otherwise similar weapons. I think 3 points is probably the fair price of a Big Shoota.
36" range aint free. Has to be at least 4 points or you are just giving stats away for free. A Tau Burst cannon is 8 points for 4 shots str 5 assault with 18" range in what world is +1 shot at half the range worth nearly 3 times as much (if you dropped to 3 points) You have got to be realistic. Compared to other weapons the BS is basically in about the same place. The storm bolter comparison is garbage too. The storm bolters effective range is 12" so it should outperform at that range. Technically a bolter is twice as efficient on a space marine than a shoota on an ork (slightly less due to dakka dakka) Should the bolter get a price bump? Heck why? Shoota boys are great and tactical squads are gak. There is obviously more to it than what is going on in this thread. Game wise I think the stubber is the best weapon to compare the BS to. It has the same range and number of shots. To bump the str and give it assault youd have to charge at least 1 points for each of those upgrades.
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Melissia wrote: Three points would give Orks more room to work with.
Why exactly do orks need more room to work with? Shoota boys are great. They don't even need the BS.
30 model blob has 60 shots. 20 of those shots hit because of a BS5+ (10 if you Advance and aren't Evil Sunz). Approximately 3 more hits after Dakkax3 (6 more if you're Bad Moonz, 1.5 more if you Advance and aren't Evil Sunz). Against a Tac Squad, you cut another half of those because of T4 vs S4, so you're down to 6-13 shots after Wounds. After a Tac Squads 3+ Save (effectively 2+ if they're in Cover), you end up with between 1 and 3.333 Wounds. Congratulations, 210 pts of Shoota Boyz managed to take out, on average, 2 Tac Marines in the shooting phase.
As has been pointed out repeatedly, even the best Ork shooting ends up just being about average in comparison to the other Factions. I assume you just think it's "good" because you're used to Orkz sucking at shooting anything. Those Shoota Boyz don't want to be castling up like Tau or Imperials, relying on their ranged weapons. They *still* want to be moving towards a target to get into CC.
But, at this point, you're kind of a lost cause. You got quite literally everyone arguing against you, both Ork players and players of other Factions, and you refuse to accept that maybe, just maybe, you're wrong. So, there's really nothing more to say about it. Have a good life, friend, but I'm out.
No one uses tac squads because they suck balls. You are going to be shooting at t3 5+ infanty most likely. If you check stratagems on them you can do substantial damage.
Dajump 30 shoota boys
Shoot twice with more dakka. Youll put about 30 wounds on something youll do slightly more wounds for slgihtly more points with big shootas.
Hoenstly you are right it is a lost cause. Orks are a top teir army and shootaboys are their core in tons of lists. You guys complaining like you are GK up in here. Who BTW for 210 points get a single strike squad with OP storm bolters for 210 points. It gets about the same number of hits and wounds - it can't shoot twice has 1/3 of the CC attacks and 1/3 of the wounds and it's save gets removed down to a 5+ by asbout halfd the weapons in the game where and ork army is likely veilded under a 5++ save bubble .On the whole strike squads are actrually a pretty good unit by marine standards too.
I can't speak from a competitive perspective, but judging from the statline, they seem roughly twice as good as an Ork Boy, for slightly less than twice the cost. But ok. I believe ya. Moving on.
Da Jump 30 Bad Moonz Shoota Boyz and use 4 CP to make them shoot adequately. Let's run it out.
30 Shoota Boyz, with Moar Dakka and Showin' Off, vs T3, 5+ Infantry.
That's 120 shots, of which 40 will hit with BS5+. Between Moar Dakka and rerolling 1s, you'll have another 20 hits, for 60 total. T3 vs S5. 40 shots pass Wounds. 5+ Save. 26.6 Damage. The addition of 3 Big Shoota: 63 hits, 42 Wounds, 28 Damage. If you allocate your shots perfectly, you can take out almost 3 10-model groups of infantry. If you split ineffectively, you'll take out a single one, and maybe damage 2 others. For this, you spent 4 CP, probably over a quarter of your total. Honestly, if I spent 4 CP on a 210 model unit and COULDN'T deal at least 26 damage to Guardsmen, I'd consider that to be a waste of CP spent.
I don't think anyone is complaining. Well, except for you. Myself, and others, just want your complaints grounded in... well, reality. Orkz *are* a very good army. But statements like: "Orkz are great at shooting" are faulty and grounded in fantasy.
Edit: also, well done with comparing to what is widely considered to be the worst army in the game. "Orkz are overpowered because look at how much better they are than Grey Knights." In that case, quite literally every army is overpowered and needs a nerf, yes?
Literally everyone is complaining about the cost of the BS. With many stating it's cost should be dropped to 1 or 2 points (43% of votes) from 6 points is just asinine. Just comparing the raw damage results in ideal conditions to noncomparable weapons. Ignoring the added utility of assault rule plus triple effective range and bonus str which is significant vs t4. ITT people actually claiming the SB is OP. LOL. Keep in mind I am totally fine with a reduction to 4 points. Which I have supported with a very logical argument. For this logical approach I've been accused of trolling. I think one guy even said it's the dumbest thing they ever heard on dakka…
The last tournament I went to I lost to an ork army doing exactly this (it was a 1000 point tournament) Sure there might be better units to buff with those strats but in a smaller game this is probably the most effective unit you have. It probably doesn't need to get any better than it already is.
A Big Shoota gets, for 5 pts, +18" range, +1 shot, and +1S, all of this on a chassis that only hits a target 1/3rd of the time.
A Storm Bolter gets, for 2 pts, +1 shot past 12" and +2 shots within 12", on a chassis that hits (as per Tac Marines) 2/3rds of the time.
Why the former should cost even twice that of the latter, despite multiple people showing you the math of how they are roughly equivalent to each other, is beyond me. And everyone else.
Point cost of Big Shoota Boy: 12 pts. Point cost of Storm Bolter Sergeant: 15 pts. Cost of the former including the MSU squad it is part of: 75 pts. Cost of the latter including the MSU squad it is part of: 67 pts.
The stat differences between the Big Shoota Boy and the Storm Bolter Sergeant:
So, the Storm Bolter Sergeant costs 3 points more than the Big Shoota Boy, and for those 3 points he gets +1" of movement, 50% better accuracy, +1 wound, +1 attack, 50% improved Save, 1 less shot, 12" less range, and 1 less S with his gun.
Range outside of 18" isn't going to matter much. These are anti-infantry guns attached to mobile units. They aren't sitting 36" away from their target, taking potshots.
flandarz wrote: Point cost of Big Shoota Boy: 12 pts. Point cost of Storm Bolter Sergeant: 15 pts. Cost of the former including the MSU squad it is part of: 75 pts. Cost of the latter including the MSU squad it is part of: 67 pts.
The stat differences between the Big Shoota Boy and the Storm Bolter Sergeant:
So, the Storm Bolter Sergeant costs 3 points more than the Big Shoota Boy, and for those 3 points he gets +1" of movement, 50% better accuracy, +1 wound, +1 attack, 50% improved Save, 1 less shot, 12" less range, and 1 less S with his gun.
Range outside of 18" isn't going to matter much. These are anti-infantry guns attached to mobile units. They aren't sitting 36" away from their target, taking potshots.
Well if your going to make up stats for the storm bolter sargent no wonder your going to think it's better.
I know that marine's are bad and you probably haven't played against them in a year but their stats haven't changed since 3rd edition it surely can't be that hard to remeber them.
But FYI his actual stats are
6"Mv 3+BS 3+WS S4 T4 W1 A2 Sv3+
But I'm still waiting on an actual answer as to what relevance a storm bolter has to the price of a big shoota which is designed to be the equivalent of a heavy bolter.
flandarz wrote: Point cost of Big Shoota Boy: 12 pts. Point cost of Storm Bolter Sergeant: 15 pts. Cost of the former including the MSU squad it is part of: 75 pts. Cost of the latter including the MSU squad it is part of: 67 pts.
The stat differences between the Big Shoota Boy and the Storm Bolter Sergeant:
So, the Storm Bolter Sergeant costs 3 points more than the Big Shoota Boy, and for those 3 points he gets +1" of movement, 50% better accuracy, +1 wound, +1 attack, 50% improved Save, 1 less shot, 12" less range, and 1 less S with his gun.
Range outside of 18" isn't going to matter much. These are anti-infantry guns attached to mobile units. They aren't sitting 36" away from their target, taking potshots.
Well if your going to make up stats for the storm bolter sargent no wonder your going to think it's better.
I know that marine's are bad and you probably haven't played against them in a year but their stats haven't changed since 3rd edition it surely can't be that hard to remeber them.
But FYI his actual stats are
6"Mv 3+BS 3+WS S4 T4 W1 A2 Sv3+
But I'm still waiting on an actual answer as to what relevance a storm bolter has to the price of a big shoota which is designed to be the equivalent of a heavy bolter.
6 Big Shoota shots
22/9 hits
44/27 wounds against MEQs or Boyz
44/81 unsaved MEQ wounds, 110/81 unsaved Boy wounds
As compared to...
4 Storm Bolter shots
32/9 hits
8/3 wounds agianst MEQs or Boyz
8/9 unsaved MEQ wounds, 20/9 unsaved Boy wounds
Would you look at that-if you compare them at their absolute peak, the Storm Bolter outperforms the Big Shoota! Almost as if it's better.
Edit: For reference, that's a Big Shoota with extra shots on a 5+, RR1s to hit, and shooting twice.
It's a Storm Bolter with the G-Man.
Point cost of model wielding BS vs. storm bolter at 12"? 24"? 36? Or does the range not matter to you?
36" range on Ork boyz literally does not matter when they are charging at you head long turn 1 and its their ONLY tactic for success. No one is sitting back and shooting their shoota boyz only, they're using the weapons to do damage before charging. Come to think of it it doesn't matter much for Dakkajets (crazy speed in this case) or trukks since game plan is GET UP AND KRUMP 'EM' LADZ
3 pts is good for the big shoota, its the workhorse gun but at its current price it just doesn't do much for the cost.
Orkimedez_Atalaya wrote: All maths involved. Could any of you run the same considering the bshoota as a 5 pts upgrade and assault 5? Otherwose the same.
BR
Against GEQ:
At assault 5 would get you 5.833 shots, 1.944 hits, 1.296 wounds, .864 dead.
A 10 point supa-shoota gets you 3.5 shots, 1.75 hits, 1.458 wounds, .1215 dead
Sounds good enough enough against GEQ, obviously worse against targets with decent armor.
flandarz wrote: Point cost of Big Shoota Boy: 12 pts. Point cost of Storm Bolter Sergeant: 15 pts. Cost of the former including the MSU squad it is part of: 75 pts. Cost of the latter including the MSU squad it is part of: 67 pts.
The stat differences between the Big Shoota Boy and the Storm Bolter Sergeant:
So, the Storm Bolter Sergeant costs 3 points more than the Big Shoota Boy, and for those 3 points he gets +1" of movement, 50% better accuracy, +1 wound, +1 attack, 50% improved Save, 1 less shot, 12" less range, and 1 less S with his gun.
Range outside of 18" isn't going to matter much. These are anti-infantry guns attached to mobile units. They aren't sitting 36" away from their target, taking potshots.
Well if your going to make up stats for the storm bolter sargent no wonder your going to think it's better.
I know that marine's are bad and you probably haven't played against them in a year but their stats haven't changed since 3rd edition it surely can't be that hard to remeber them.
But FYI his actual stats are
6"Mv 3+BS 3+WS S4 T4 W1 A2 Sv3+
But I'm still waiting on an actual answer as to what relevance a storm bolter has to the price of a big shoota which is designed to be the equivalent of a heavy bolter.
The big shoota is such a gun, not quite heavy yet but also bigger then the combi guns.
And now due to bolter beta rule the combi bolter /storm bolter is a closer comparison and often more effective then the bigger more expensive gun.
Hillariously if you have the choice the combi / stormbolters are basically always picked whilest the heavy bolter still remains home.
Yeah so your going to include GW's patch work rules fix to we couldn't point marines to make them remotely playable so have a barely viable rule to make them less terrible.
Ok what between a BS stat line vrs a heavy bolters stat line makes it more fair to compair it to a storm bolter?
Let shoot some marines
BS .22 marines
HB .5 marines
SB .22 marines
Ork with BS 12 points or 54 points per marine
Marine with HB 23 points or 46 points per marine
Marine with SB 15points or 68 points per marine
Guard with lasgun .056 marines 4 points or 71 points per marine killed
Maths can be used to prove almost anything the issue is it doesn't take into account gamestate.
You can claim that every marine is being Gman buffed but you know that's being dishonest.
Is a BS a 5 point weapon probably not, is it a 2 point weapon No.
If it's 3 points a bust cannon sure isn't 8 points. Enjoy facing 3 maximum 4 point burst cannons.
flandarz wrote: Point cost of Big Shoota Boy: 12 pts. Point cost of Storm Bolter Sergeant: 15 pts. Cost of the former including the MSU squad it is part of: 75 pts. Cost of the latter including the MSU squad it is part of: 67 pts.
The stat differences between the Big Shoota Boy and the Storm Bolter Sergeant:
So, the Storm Bolter Sergeant costs 3 points more than the Big Shoota Boy, and for those 3 points he gets +1" of movement, 50% better accuracy, +1 wound, +1 attack, 50% improved Save, 1 less shot, 12" less range, and 1 less S with his gun.
Range outside of 18" isn't going to matter much. These are anti-infantry guns attached to mobile units. They aren't sitting 36" away from their target, taking potshots.
Well if your going to make up stats for the storm bolter sargent no wonder your going to think it's better.
I know that marine's are bad and you probably haven't played against them in a year but their stats haven't changed since 3rd edition it surely can't be that hard to remeber them.
But FYI his actual stats are
6"Mv 3+BS 3+WS S4 T4 W1 A2 Sv3+
But I'm still waiting on an actual answer as to what relevance a storm bolter has to the price of a big shoota which is designed to be the equivalent of a heavy bolter.
The big shoota is such a gun, not quite heavy yet but also bigger then the combi guns.
And now due to bolter beta rule the combi bolter /storm bolter is a closer comparison and often more effective then the bigger more expensive gun.
Hillariously if you have the choice the combi / stormbolters are basically always picked whilest the heavy bolter still remains home.
Yeah so your going to include GW's patch work rules fix to we couldn't point marines to make them remotely playable so have a barely viable rule to make them less terrible.
Ok what between a BS stat line vrs a heavy bolters stat line makes it more fair to compair it to a storm bolter?
Let shoot some marines
BS .22 marines
HB .5 marines
SB .22 marines
Ork with BS 12 points or 54 points per marine
Marine with HB 23 points or 46 points per marine
Marine with SB 15points or 68 points per marine
Guard with lasgun .056 marines 4 points or 71 points per marine killed
Maths can be used to prove almost anything the issue is it doesn't take into account gamestate.
You can claim that every marine is being Gman buffed but you know that's being dishonest.
Is a BS a 5 point weapon probably not, is it a 2 point weapon and if it's 3 points
Before you go around and insult someone as beeing dishonest, where did i state that they are buffed by GMan?
And it is a matter of fact that if you have the option to pick either a HB or a Stormbolter/ combibilter the later always wins. (and i say this as a chaos player with some of the nicest sculpts for Heavy bolter available.)
The point is or why i deem it necessary to regard the beta bolter fix, and the stormbolter, is the application, use and circumstance of it.
I also gave you a sound reasoning the last page i deem it a 3 point weapon.
But i guess you'd rather state i am dishonest.
I also even explained why some weapons in the same "weightclass" do work and some not:
but here for you:
Spoiler:
CSM do too pay 10 pts / HB.
And how often do you see them? Especially when the Reaper chaincannon has 2 more shots for the same price for one equipment slot?
I'll refer to the Heavy stubber, it's targets are the same, light squishy infantry, same applies to the Big shoota, same to the heavy bolter, same to the Reaper.
The reaper has one significant advantage, it is in a dex that can double it's rate and a singular weapon, meaning saturation is easily achievable. This is what makes the reaper work. (and also the reason for the rather steep pricing but atleast it is playable)
The heavy bolter and big shootason the other hand suffer for beeing too expensive and lacking saturation options. Meaning that for the output of 1 reaper, you need 2 Heavy bolters in the same squad + additional 2/3'rds of one to just equate the ammount of shots. 1 Havoc with reaper is 34 pts. 2. havocs alone are 28 pts + 20 for the heavy bolters. And we have not yet talked about VotWL which would make Heavy bolters actually decent against medium tanks, were it not for the fact that reapers again stack up better.
Ig has another issue. They pay a fairer price for the heavy bolter, but pay more for a heavy bolter then for a mortar. Which beats the heavy bolter in terms of range and LOS usage. (also averages more shots and with certain traits alot more of them)
Targets are again the same. So why pay 3 pts more for +1 S and -1 AP when you can generate more shots overall?
Now the heavy stubber shows up. And for regiments that can field them (or armies ) on line infantry, the job is the same. Now however you pay 1/8th for the equal ammount of shots, one less S and no armor penetration. The targets you want to shoot with it however remain the same, and virtually T3 targets (75% off all infantry really) treat it the same as the heavy bolter.
It isn't even a competition there.
This is also why i belive, if the stubber is worth 2 pts, which it is, the Big shoota should be 3 and the heavy bolter 4 /5 respectively. And precedence was created by the heavy stubber itself, which got it's price cut in half.
That part wasn't actually aimed at you, it was aimed at the people just making up statlines.
And how often do you actually think.
I know I'll take basic marine's.
1 wound for double digit points don't work in 8th.
But if your going to compair to S4 weapons as the basis for the points cost of these weapons then IMHO they need to be reduced to S4 to match the base weapons they are based upon and become 5 shot weapons just making mid strength weapons cheaper piles more issues onto elite infantry being useless as the weapons good at killing them are passable against T3 chaff and also against Armour.
If you want a weapon that's a generalist you'll rightly get charged a premium for the fact it doesn't have the bad matchup to offset it's performance in it's good matchups.
Ice_can wrote: That part wasn't actually aimed at you, it was aimed at the people just making up statlines.
And how often do you actually think I know I'll take basic marine's.
1 wound for double digit points don't work in 8th.
But if your goibg to compair to S4 weapons as the basis for the points cost of these weapons then IMHO they need to be reduced to S4 to match the base weapons they are based upon and become 5 shot weapons just making mid strength weapons cheaper piles more issues onto elite infantry being useless as the weapons good at killing them are passable against T3 chaff and also against Armour.
I compare it on a range of slightly heavier weapons that are used as either vehicle additions and infantry weapons aswell and in terms of what their job is.
Combibolter AND stormbolter/ Heavy Stubber/ Big Shoota / Heavy bolter / Reaper chaincannon.
the first three function because they are cheap. Like literally cheap. the Last works because it is a single slot.
The heavy bolter and the Big shoota don't work.
As for elite infantry not working. The basic tac marine does not work. For chaos he does, mostly due to propper CP generation and the possibility to be recycled.
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If you want a weapon that's a generalist you'll rightly get charged a premium for the fact it doesn't have the bad matchup to offset it's performance in it's good matchups.
How the feth are you even going to the conclusion a s5 weapon is a generalist?
Ice_can wrote: That part wasn't actually aimed at you, it was aimed at the people just making up statlines.
And how often do you actually think I know I'll take basic marine's.
1 wound for double digit points don't work in 8th.
But if your goibg to compair to S4 weapons as the basis for the points cost of these weapons then IMHO they need to be reduced to S4 to match the base weapons they are based upon and become 5 shot weapons just making mid strength weapons cheaper piles more issues onto elite infantry being useless as the weapons good at killing them are passable against T3 chaff and also against Armour.
I compare it on a range of slightly heavier weapons that are used as either vehicle additions and infantry weapons aswell and in terms of what their job is.
Combibolter AND stormbolter/ Heavy Stubber/ Big Shoota / Heavy bolter / Reaper chaincannon.
the first three function because they are cheap. Like literally cheap. the Las works because it is a single slot.
The heavy bolter and the Big shoota don't work.
As for elite infantry not working. The basic tac marine does not work. For chaos he does, mostly due to propper CP generation and the possibility to be recycled.
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If you want a weapon that's a generalist you'll rightly get charged a premium for the fact it doesn't have the bad matchup to offset it's performance in it's good matchups.
How the feth are you even going to the conclusion a s5 weapon is a generalist?
A generalist is something like an Autocannon.
What does a S5 weapon wound a tank or knight on 5+ what does an auto cannon wound on 5+. Welcome to flat wounding charts.
Being S4 or S5 makes a big difference to the wounds caused vrs T8 (most viable vehicals) being S3/4 maters vrs infantry but S5-6 are genarilist weapons S7 is light anti tank S8+ is very AT weapons.
A strom bolter does .074 vrs T8 3+, a Big shoota does .111 wounds without any strategums or special rules.
Its the same reason assualt cannons are costed insanely high now, S5-6 is a very effective strength in the 8th edition system.
Ice_can wrote: That part wasn't actually aimed at you, it was aimed at the people just making up statlines.
And how often do you actually think I know I'll take basic marine's.
1 wound for double digit points don't work in 8th.
But if your goibg to compair to S4 weapons as the basis for the points cost of these weapons then IMHO they need to be reduced to S4 to match the base weapons they are based upon and become 5 shot weapons just making mid strength weapons cheaper piles more issues onto elite infantry being useless as the weapons good at killing them are passable against T3 chaff and also against Armour.
I compare it on a range of slightly heavier weapons that are used as either vehicle additions and infantry weapons aswell and in terms of what their job is.
Combibolter AND stormbolter/ Heavy Stubber/ Big Shoota / Heavy bolter / Reaper chaincannon.
the first three function because they are cheap. Like literally cheap. the Las works because it is a single slot.
The heavy bolter and the Big shoota don't work.
As for elite infantry not working. The basic tac marine does not work. For chaos he does, mostly due to propper CP generation and the possibility to be recycled.
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If you want a weapon that's a generalist you'll rightly get charged a premium for the fact it doesn't have the bad matchup to offset it's performance in it's good matchups.
How the feth are you even going to the conclusion a s5 weapon is a generalist?
A generalist is something like an Autocannon.
What does a S5 weapon wound a tank or knight on 5+ what does an auto cannon wound on 5+. Welcome to flat wounding charts.
Being S4 or S5 makes a big difference to the wounds caused vrs T8 (most viable vehicals) being S3/4 maters vrs infantry but S5-6 are genarilist weapons S7 is light anti tank S8+ is very AT weapons.
A strom bolter does .074 vrs T8 3+, a Big shoota does .111 wounds without any strategums or special rules.
Its the same reason assualt cannons are costed insanely high now, S5-6 is a very effective strength in the 8th edition system.
Ice_can wrote: Yeah so your going to include GW's patch work rules fix to we couldn't point marines to make them remotely playable so have a barely viable rule to make them less terrible.
Ok what between a BS stat line vrs a heavy bolters stat line makes it more fair to compair it to a storm bolter?
Careful. You are making lots of good points, but you're falling into a "you can't have it unless I get it, too"-argumentation here.
We have three assumptions:
1) Big shootas don't work
2) Storm bolters do work
3) Both are used for the same task: Gunning down light infantry
Therefore the guys want to move the big shoota towards the storm bolter.
There is no formula where you can input all the variables of an army and a gun and it drops a point cost. So, beyond that it's just guesswork.
3 points might be enough to make big shootas viable, but it might not, 2 points might make them auto-takes. 4 points is not enough of a reduction because it's not twice as good as the kustom shoota we can have for 2.
While their may be T7 tanks the ones that actually see play are T8
Russes T8 3+, Repulsives T8 3+, Knight's T8 3+, Craftworld haha doesn't matter when your hiding behind-2 or more to hit modifiers
Tau iok the riptide is T7 but it's depending on drones not it's own stats to survive.
Ice_can wrote: Being S4 or S5 makes a big difference to the wounds caused vrs T8 (most viable vehicals) being S3/4 maters vrs infantry but S5-6 are genarilist weapons S7 is light anti tank S8+ is very AT weapons.
As proven above, big shootas are absolutely terrible at dealing damage to T8/3+ targets. Why are you ignoring that?
Ice_can wrote: Yeah so your going to include GW's patch work rules fix to we couldn't point marines to make them remotely playable so have a barely viable rule to make them less terrible.
Ok what between a BS stat line vrs a heavy bolters stat line makes it more fair to compair it to a storm bolter?
Careful. You are making lots of good points, but you're falling into a "you can't have it unless I get it, too"-argumentation here.
We have three assumptions:
1) Big shootas don't work
2) Storm bolters do work
3) Both are used for the same task: Gunning down light infantry
Therefore the guys want to move the big shoota towards the storm bolter.
There is no formula where you can input all the variables of an army and a gun and it drops a point cost. So, beyond that it's just guesswork.
3 points might be enough to make big shootas viable, but it might not, 2 points might make them auto-takes. 4 points is not enough of a reduction because it's not twice as good as the kustom shoota we can have for 2.
We have definitive prove that cutting the cost in half for these weapons works with the stubber as a given exemple.
While their may be T7 tanks the ones that actually see play are T8
Russes T8 3+, Repulsives T8 3+, Knight's T8 3+, Craftworld haha doesn't matter when your hiding behind-2 or more to hit modifiers
Tau iok the riptide is T7 but it's depending on drones not it's own stats to survive.
And leman russes see play since when?
Commanders see play. Yes, because they are justifiyable cheap and good shots enough. The average leman russ, not a chance.
And i dare say the increased BS has to do with why the Commander leman russes see play compared to the regular leman russ.
Add to that flat weapon costs ( no diferentiation between unit types and cost to field it) and you get the mess we have now.
Ice_can wrote: Being S4 or S5 makes a big difference to the wounds caused vrs T8 (most viable vehicals) being S3/4 maters vrs infantry but S5-6 are genarilist weapons S7 is light anti tank S8+ is very AT weapons.
As proven above, big shootas are absolutely terrible at dealing damage to T8/3+ targets. Why are you ignoring that?
Because it's a lot better at it than a storm bolter.
A heavy stubber does .083 to the BS .111 or 12 Heavy stubbers on a BS4+ vrs 9 BS on a BS5+ model without any special rules applied to either.
If the stubber moves it's BS5, the BS is still BS5.
The stubber is now .056 or 18 stubbers to do a wound, or twice as many HS as BS, sure BS are terrible against heavy targets if you compair it to a lascannon etc, but it certainly outperformed the Heavy stubber.
Ice_can wrote: Being S4 or S5 makes a big difference to the wounds caused vrs T8 (most viable vehicals) being S3/4 maters vrs infantry but S5-6 are genarilist weapons S7 is light anti tank S8+ is very AT weapons.
As proven above, big shootas are absolutely terrible at dealing damage to T8/3+ targets. Why are you ignoring that?
Because it's a lot better at it than a storm bolter.
A heavy stubber does .083 to the BS .111 or 12 Heavy stubbers on a BS4+ vrs 9 BS on a BS5+ model without any special rules applied to either.
If the stubber moves it's BS5, the BS is still BS5.
The stubber is now .056 or 18 stubbers to do a wound, or twice as many HS as BS, sure BS are terrible against heavy targets if you compair it to a lascannon etc, but it certainly outperformed the Heavy stubber.
Which is why it should cost more then them but still less then the heavy bolter, which should just like the Heavy stubber drop by 50% (in case of the heavy stubber 4 pts --> 2 pts)
This is also why i am still adamant about the 3 pts.
While their may be T7 tanks the ones that actually see play are T8
Russes T8 3+, Repulsives T8 3+, Knight's T8 3+, Craftworld haha doesn't matter when your hiding behind-2 or more to hit modifiers
Tau iok the riptide is T7 but it's depending on drones not it's own stats to survive.
And leman russes see play since when?
Commanders see play. Yes, because they are justifiyable cheap and good shots enough. The average leman russ, not a chance.
And i dare say the increased BS has to do with why the Commander leman russes see play compared to the regular leman russ.
Add to that flat weapon costs ( no diferentiation between unit types and cost to field it) and you get the mess we have now.
I'm seeing alot of irrelevant information about why commanders are better than basic russes but not an argument countering the original point which is T8 3+ is an important statline to consider when compairing weapons performance.
And BS do perform differently against this profile.
That is what I would say justifies them being 4 points each not 3 points.
While their may be T7 tanks the ones that actually see play are T8
Russes T8 3+, Repulsives T8 3+, Knight's T8 3+, Craftworld haha doesn't matter when your hiding behind-2 or more to hit modifiers
Tau iok the riptide is T7 but it's depending on drones not it's own stats to survive.
And leman russes see play since when?
Commanders see play. Yes, because they are justifiyable cheap and good shots enough. The average leman russ, not a chance.
And i dare say the increased BS has to do with why the Commander leman russes see play compared to the regular leman russ.
Add to that flat weapon costs ( no diferentiation between unit types and cost to field it) and you get the mess we have now.
I'm seeing alot of irrelevant information about why commanders are better than basic russes but not an argument countering the original point which is T8 3+ is an important statline to consider when compairing weapons performance.
And BS do perform differently against this profile.
That is what I would say justifies them being 4 points each not 3 points.
S-4 to S5/6 is irrelevant though. You are talking about an increase in effectiveness that is so miniscule that it can be disregarded. Ofcourse if abilities that improve throws on the wound table show up then we are talking, and that is a whole other issue but that again has to do with the bad wound chart. not necessarily with the gun itself.
As for the commanders, it's not irrelevant. The leman russ has the same supposed "good" tank profile, it still get's not fielded.--> even though by your acount it should. Which makes BS the deciding factor, especially as pointed out, when weapon cost is flat regardless of what picks said weapon.
If you bothered to read then you wouldn't have missed that.
Which is why it should cost more then them but still less then the heavy bolter, which should just like the Heavy stubber drop by 50% (in case of the heavy stubber 4 pts --> 2 pts)
This is also why i am still adamant about the 3 pts.
Not Online!!! wrote: If you bothered to read then you wouldn't have missed that.
Which is why it should cost more then them but still less then the heavy bolter, which should just like the Heavy stubber drop by 50% (in case of the heavy stubber 4 pts --> 2 pts)
This is also why i am still adamant about the 3 pts.
Not Online!!! wrote: If you bothered to read then you wouldn't have missed that.
Which is why it should cost more then them but still less then the heavy bolter, which should just like the Heavy stubber drop by 50% (in case of the heavy stubber 4 pts --> 2 pts)
This is also why i am still adamant about the 3 pts.
So is a heavy bolter 4 or 5 points?
4 for guard. 5 for Marines.
Altough it wouldn't be a tragedy if you just went with 4 ppmimo.
Not Online!!! wrote: If you bothered to read then you wouldn't have missed that.
Which is why it should cost more then them but still less then the heavy bolter, which should just like the Heavy stubber drop by 50% (in case of the heavy stubber 4 pts --> 2 pts)
This is also why i am still adamant about the 3 pts.
So is a heavy bolter 4 or 5 points?
4 for guard. 5 for Marines.
Altough it wouldn't be a tragedy if you just went with 4 ppmimo.
But isn't that just exposing another failure in GW design for 8th edition in that models cist more because of their stats but the weapons that depend on those stats are also charging for that stat?
Double charging for stats doesn't work either the model pays for its own stats and the weapons are a flat cost or models don't pay for stats that depend upon weapons and the weapons are priced on the users stats.
This half and half system doesn't work.
Ice_can wrote: Being S4 or S5 makes a big difference to the wounds caused vrs T8 (most viable vehicals) being S3/4 maters vrs infantry but S5-6 are genarilist weapons S7 is light anti tank S8+ is very AT weapons.
As proven above, big shootas are absolutely terrible at dealing damage to T8/3+ targets. Why are you ignoring that?
Because it's a lot better at it than a storm bolter.
A heavy stubber does .083 to the BS .111 or 12 Heavy stubbers on a BS4+ vrs 9 BS on a BS5+ model without any special rules applied to either.
If the stubber moves it's BS5, the BS is still BS5. The stubber is now .056 or 18 stubbers to do a wound, or twice as many HS as BS, sure BS are terrible against heavy targets if you compair it to a lascannon etc, but it certainly outperformed the Heavy stubber.
So we are back to comparing weapons across codices?
Might as well stop discussing this.
Jidmah wrote: Do you really not understand that a different codex with different support auras, different stat lines, different options, different stratagems and different army traits should have an impact on how much a weapon should cost in the context of that codex?
Not Online!!! wrote: If you bothered to read then you wouldn't have missed that.
Which is why it should cost more then them but still less then the heavy bolter, which should just like the Heavy stubber drop by 50% (in case of the heavy stubber 4 pts --> 2 pts)
This is also why i am still adamant about the 3 pts.
So is a heavy bolter 4 or 5 points?
4 for guard. 5 for Marines.
Altough it wouldn't be a tragedy if you just went with 4 ppmimo.
But isn't that just exposing another failure in GW design for 8th edition in that models cist more because of their stats but the weapons that depend on those stats are also charging for that stat?
Double charging for stats doesn't work either the model pays for its own stats and the weapons are a flat cost or models don't pay for stats that depend upon weapons and the weapons are priced on the users stats.
This half and half system doesn't work.
Yes because gw seems to need the additional space for it.
Gander a look at the am codex, Plasma specifically got a hike on better profile units, even though the better units need to allready pay more.
And ofcourse the wound table is one of the systemic failures.
Alone the excessive use if VotLW should hint at that.
It should not be the case that you should even dent a vehicle with these kind of weapons.
Yet you can.
This is also one of the reasons why the t8 is so important, it pushes you out of the heavier infantry gun effectiveness range. (S4)
May I state again my point on the problem of the bshoota?
Even if the bshoota's cost comes down, they will stay irrelevant. For bshootas to work (given that the max number available is very low and fixed unit wise) they must increase their fire rate, not decrease it's cost. Same applies to heavy bolters, I agree on that.
flandarz wrote: Point cost of Big Shoota Boy: 12 pts. Point cost of Storm Bolter Sergeant: 15 pts. Cost of the former including the MSU squad it is part of: 75 pts. Cost of the latter including the MSU squad it is part of: 67 pts.
The stat differences between the Big Shoota Boy and the Storm Bolter Sergeant:
So, the Storm Bolter Sergeant costs 3 points more than the Big Shoota Boy, and for those 3 points he gets +1" of movement, 50% better accuracy, +1 wound, +1 attack, 50% improved Save, 1 less shot, 12" less range, and 1 less S with his gun.
Range outside of 18" isn't going to matter much. These are anti-infantry guns attached to mobile units. They aren't sitting 36" away from their target, taking potshots.
Well if your going to make up stats for the storm bolter sargent no wonder your going to think it's better.
I know that marine's are bad and you probably haven't played against them in a year but their stats haven't changed since 3rd edition it surely can't be that hard to remeber them.
But FYI his actual stats are
6"Mv 3+BS 3+WS S4 T4 W1 A2 Sv3+
But I'm still waiting on an actual answer as to what relevance a storm bolter has to the price of a big shoota which is designed to be the equivalent of a heavy bolter.
My bad. I added 1W and 1A to him. You're right, this is SO much worse than the Big Shoota Boy now. After all, now you only have +1", a 50% better chance to hit, and a 50% better chance to avoid damage. Definitely not worth the extra 3 points you'll spend over the Big Shoota Boy.
As for the Marine with Heavy Bolter... Well, let's compare them again.
12 pts for a Big Shoota Boy. 23 pts for a Heavy Bolter Marine.
So, for 11 pts, you get +1" of movement, a 50% better chance to hit, 1 less attack, 50% improved Save, and -1 AP. In other words, you're going to deal 67% more damage, take 50% less damage, and get to where you want to be more quickly. Probably not the most efficient expenditure of points, but there ya go. I'd probably say the HB is about... 4 pts too expensive. 5-6 points for it seems like a good place.
flandarz wrote: Point cost of Big Shoota Boy: 12 pts. Point cost of Storm Bolter Sergeant: 15 pts. Cost of the former including the MSU squad it is part of: 75 pts. Cost of the latter including the MSU squad it is part of: 67 pts.
The stat differences between the Big Shoota Boy and the Storm Bolter Sergeant:
So, the Storm Bolter Sergeant costs 3 points more than the Big Shoota Boy, and for those 3 points he gets +1" of movement, 50% better accuracy, +1 wound, +1 attack, 50% improved Save, 1 less shot, 12" less range, and 1 less S with his gun.
Range outside of 18" isn't going to matter much. These are anti-infantry guns attached to mobile units. They aren't sitting 36" away from their target, taking potshots.
Well if your going to make up stats for the storm bolter sargent no wonder your going to think it's better.
I know that marine's are bad and you probably haven't played against them in a year but their stats haven't changed since 3rd edition it surely can't be that hard to remeber them.
But FYI his actual stats are
6"Mv 3+BS 3+WS S4 T4 W1 A2 Sv3+
But I'm still waiting on an actual answer as to what relevance a storm bolter has to the price of a big shoota which is designed to be the equivalent of a heavy bolter.
My bad. I added 1W and 1A to him. You're right, this is SO much worse than the Big Shoota Boy now. After all, now you only have +1", a 50% better chance to hit, and a 50% better chance to avoid damage. Definitely not worth the extra 3 points you'll spend over the Big Shoota Boy.
As for the Marine with Heavy Bolter... Well, let's compare them again.
12 pts for a Big Shoota Boy. 23 pts for a Heavy Bolter Marine.
So, for 11 pts, you get +1" of movement, a 50% better chance to hit, 1 less attack, 50% improved Save, and -1 AP. In other words, you're going to deal 67% more damage, take 50% less damage, and get to where you want to be more quickly. Probably not the most efficient expenditure of points, but there ya go. I'd probably say the HB is about... 4 pts too expensive. 5-6 points for it seems like a good place.
At 3+ you are looking at a 50% increased chance to avoid damage (4x approx more resilient to ap0).
Well, you're also off a bit in that it's not a SB Sarge vs Big Shoota Boy. It's a 5man Tac squad with SB on Sarge and Heavy Bolter vs 10 Boyz with 9 Shootas and a Big Shoota.
As for T7 vs T8, T8 is more common, but T7 is not exactly rare. The Pred and Serpent chasis are T7. Not in every list, but certainly not rare. However, you're looking at doubling the firepower of one Ork Shoota out of 10 - so going from virtually nothing to double virtually nothing. For every three 30-man 3-BS Shoota Boy squads, you're looking at one additional HP (vs T7 3+).
Automatically Appended Next Post: BS 5+ -> 3+ is a 100% improvement to hit (doubling the hits).
BS 3+ -> 5+ is a 50% reduction to hit (cutting hits in half).
A 5+ is 50% as good as a 3+, but a 3+ is 200% as good as a 5+.
You care about hits, not misses. Misses do nothing.
Even if the bshoota's cost comes down, they will stay irrelevant. For bshootas to work (given that the max number available is very low and fixed unit wise) they must increase their fire rate, not decrease it's cost. Same applies to heavy bolters, I agree on that.
I agree, but sadly GW seems to be unwilling to adjust statline for balance purposes outside of codex releases.
What does a S5 weapon wound a tank or knight on 5+ what does an auto cannon wound on 5+. Welcome to flat wounding charts.
Being S4 or S5 makes a big difference to the wounds caused vrs T8 (most viable vehicals) being S3/4 maters vrs infantry but S5-6 are genarilist weapons S7 is light anti tank S8+ is very AT weapons.
A strom bolter does .074 vrs T8 3+, a Big shoota does .111 wounds without any strategums or special rules.
Its the same reason assualt cannons are costed insanely high now, S5-6 is a very effective strength in the 8th edition system.
Be careful, you are making a good argument against your own point. A stormbolter Vs. a T8 Vehicle does 4 shots (didn't move), 2.66 hits and .44 wounds (Dmg is determined by save so lets leave that blank for now since both weapons are AP0)
A Big Shoota on the other hand has 3.5 shots on average for 1.17 hits wounding on 5s so .38 wounds Not sure how you managed to get the math looking like a stormbolter is worse but ok. You seem to forget that hitting on 3s means x2 more hits on average which balances out the 50% less change to wound. So a big shoota with 4 shots would be a lot closer to the dmg potential of a Stormbolter vs a T8 platform.
4 shots = 4.67 shots for 1.56 hits and wounding on 5s means .519 wounds on average.
But lets stick to the actual 4 shots vs 3 atm. So that 2pt upgrade stormbolter, if it doesn't move or is on a platform that doesnt care about moving, does MORE damage for 40% the cost of a Big Shoota to a T8 platform. Put that same thing up against infantry which has already been shown ad nauseam to be better then the big shoota and you have successfully killed your own argument. Now an argument can be made for the fact that the BS has +12' range, which has also been shown to be mostly irrelevant, but lets say it is worth something because of the vehicles that take it. So 2pts would be fair for the Big Shoota simply because the Stormbolter outperforms it in most categories BUT it does have more range which to me is a wash. This brings me to a very intuitive comment made by orkimedez_atalaya
Even if the bshoota's cost comes down, they will stay irrelevant. For bshootas to work (given that the max number available is very low and fixed unit wise) they must increase their fire rate, not decrease it's cost. Same applies to heavy bolters, I agree on that.
I think you are right, even if you made it 1pt its still going to be a choice between taking it and losing CC and not taking it and losing ranged weapons fire on infantry, but on vehicles, it will still be a forced weapon to take OR just not taken at all (I Wouldn't put any on my CC Battlewagons) So then the question becomes how many shots should it get and at what points cost. I think 5shots for 4ppm is good. This gives the BS a 60% increase in ROF while also lowering the price by 1pt. For comparison lets put it up against the Storm Bolter again Vs a T8 Vehicle and Vs aT3 infantry maggot.
SB: 4 shots, 2.66 hits and .44 wounds
NEW Big Shoota: 5.83 shots (Includes Dx3) = 1.94 hits and wounding on 5s = .65 dmg.
SO the Big shoota costs TWICE as much as the stormbolter and inflicts Roughly 50% more dmg vs T8......that sounds pretty damned good to me.
Vs those pesky T3 screen units
SB: 4 shots, 2.66 hits and wounding on 3s = 1.77 dmg NEW BS: 5.83 shots, 1.94 hits and wounding on 3s = 1.29 dmg So the New Big shoota is STILL weaker then the Stormbolter Vs T3, what about T4 which is less common but might give the advantage to the New Big shoota?
SB: 4 shots, 2.66 hits and 1.33dmg
New BS: 5.83 shots, 1.94 hits and 1.29dmg still So even Vs. T4 the Stormbolter is still better.
How about Vs T5, supposedly where the Big Shoota finds its niche because S5 vs T5 compared to the SB's S4 vs T5?
SB: 4 shots, 2.66 hits and .89dmg
New BS: 5.83 shots, 1.94 hits and .97dmg, SWEET! The New Big shoota costs TWICE as much as the SB and puts out less then 10% more dmg Vs T5. Now I did all this math off the top of my head so if any is inaccurate please point it out but the gist of this is that even with a 1pt reduction and a 60% increase in ROF the Big shoota is still not as good as the SB vs the targets mentioned above. as mentioned earlier an argument could be made for the increased range and the fact that its assault as opposed to RF but those are minor and situational buffs that really don't factor in that often (At least the weapons types) The extra range is a decent argument but I would say the SB being better almost across the board, and being better in every way possible when you factor in costs is a fair trade off.
Finally,
Xenomancers wrote: No one uses tac squads because they suck balls. You are going to be shooting at t3 5+ infanty most likely. If you check stratagems on them you can do substantial damage.
Dajump 30 shoota boys
Shoot twice with more dakka. Youll put about 30 wounds on something youll do slightly more wounds for slgihtly more points with big shootas.
Hoenstly you are right it is a lost cause. Orks are a top teir army and shootaboys are their core in tons of lists. You guys complaining like you are GK up in here. Who BTW for 210 points get a single strike squad with OP storm bolters for 210 points. It gets about the same number of hits and wounds - it can't shoot twice has 1/3 of the CC attacks and 1/3 of the wounds and it's save gets removed down to a 5+ by asbout halfd the weapons in the game where and ork army is likely veilded under a 5++ save bubble .On the whole strike squads are actrually a pretty good unit by marine standards too.
This type of argument is just invalid from the get go. If you "Da Jump" So HQ slot and 62pt model, Use a 210pt unit, spend 4CP and give it another HQ with a piece of gear for another 119pts (75pts for index) to give them a 5++ I really dislike arguments that use this kind of broken logic. "Look shoota boyz are better than a similarly pointed unit from arguably the worst codex in the game.....if you spend about 1/3rd of your CP, place 2 HQ's near them (BTW good luck jumping boyz and being in range of a KFF) and spend anywhere from 137 to 181pts extra for HQs to make that happen.
The point of this topic was not to say "Marines are great buff boyz" But was to point out the very specific weapon in the ork codex which is never taken except as a requirement and could use a boost to make it worth taking, specifically on infantry units. Most Ork players have 10-20 Big Shoota boyz who have been collecting dust for years because they haven't been relevant in so long. They saw a brief spell of playtime in some lists who used them as *Counts as Kommandos* but even then it was a tough choice between the Big shoota and arguably one of the worst weapons in the game, the Burna....which was Free What does that say about a weapons system that you are having a hard time choosing between it and a free option. Both weapons need a heavy upgrade but for now lets focus on that Big Shoota. Please don't use anymore logical fallacies. I don't care about the HB or the Devourer or any other weapons systems at the moment. But if you pushed me I would argue they all need hefty price reductions as well. Two things can be true at the same time, the Big Shoota needs a buff and the HB needs a price cut.
So if a big shooter is going to cost 3 points, how much of a discount do I get on assault bolters?
18" assault 3, S5, AP -1, D1
Currently 10 points.
It trades half the range for AP-1
Can I get them dropped to 3 points as well?
I suppose that depends. Do the units which take the Assault Bolter have better than a 5+ BS? Are the traits of your Faction geared around shooting or CC? Can you take as many Assault Bolters as you like within a unit, or are they limited to only a few per max squad?
That said, I *do* feel like 10 points is pretty high, even if you're hitting most of the shots you're firing, you're part of a Faction that prefers ranged combats, and you can take a feth-ton of them.
Zustiur wrote: So if a big shooter is going to cost 3 points, how much of a discount do I get on assault bolters?
18" assault 3, S5, AP -1, D1
Currently 10 points.
It trades half the range for AP-1
Can I get them dropped to 3 points as well?
Again, i would argue for 4pts and upgrade to Assault 5 for the Big Shoota. I don't play SM to know enough to make a comment about Assault bolters and what their appropriate cost should be. But since its literally a shorter ranged Heavy Bolter I don't know why they should be 10pts instead of 5 or 6 at the least.
Automatically Appended Next Post: BTW, at the moment of this post, 74% of people think 3pts or less. Be interesting to see if people think my suggestion of 4ppm and 5 shots each would be seen as fair by the majority as well. Still waiting for people to explain how the current iteration of the Big Shoota should be 6ppm though. And comparing it to another over priced weapon as justification is not a solid argument.
What does a S5 weapon wound a tank or knight on 5+ what does an auto cannon wound on 5+. Welcome to flat wounding charts.
Being S4 or S5 makes a big difference to the wounds caused vrs T8 (most viable vehicals) being S3/4 maters vrs infantry but S5-6 are genarilist weapons S7 is light anti tank S8+ is very AT weapons.
A strom bolter does .074 vrs T8 3+, a Big shoota does .111 wounds without any strategums or special rules.
Its the same reason assualt cannons are costed insanely high now, S5-6 is a very effective strength in the 8th edition system.
Be careful, you are making a good argument against your own point. A stormbolter Vs. a T8 Vehicle does 4 shots (didn't move), 2.66 hits and .44 wounds (Dmg is determined by save so lets leave that blank for now since both weapons are AP0)
A Big Shoota on the other hand has 3.5 shots on average for 1.17 hits wounding on 5s so .38 wounds Not sure how you managed to get the math looking like a stormbolter is worse but ok. You seem to forget that hitting on 3s means x2 more hits on average which balances out the 50% less change to wound. So a big shoota with 4 shots would be a lot closer to the dmg potential of a Stormbolter vs a T8 platform.
4 shots = 4.67 shots for 1.56 hits and wounding on 5s means .519 wounds on average.
But lets stick to the actual 4 shots vs 3 atm. So that 2pt upgrade stormbolter, if it doesn't move or is on a platform that doesnt care about moving, does MORE damage for 40% the cost of a Big Shoota to a T8 platform. Put that same thing up against infantry which has already been shown ad nauseam to be better then the big shoota and you have successfully killed your own argument. Now an argument can be made for the fact that the BS has +12' range, which has also been shown to be mostly irrelevant, but lets say it is worth something because of the vehicles that take it. So 2pts would be fair for the Big Shoota simply because the Stormbolter outperforms it in most categories BUT it does have more range which to me is a wash. This brings me to a very intuitive comment made by orkimedez_atalaya
Except your making 1 massive assumption that all storm bolters benefit from Beta Bolters, they don't.
A storm bolter is 2 shots at 24 it's only 4 shots at 12.
If the targets at 12 inches why arnt the orks just charging anyway?
Marine's have already payed points for Beta Bolters it's GW's concession that they over point costed marines, ie it's not a 2 point weapon its a 2 point weapon under a 1-2 point ability.
Even then Beta bolter is conditional, if your forcing the marines to stay still while the orks moves it's not a 24 inch range and a 36 inch range its 24 vrs 41 inches or an additional 17 inches of range for the orks. 17 inches is certainly worth a lot of difference in points.
But just incase your wondering Sisters also pay 2 points per storm bolter withou beta Bolter rules.
But at this point it's become clear noone actually is willing to listen you've already decided that you have all the answers.
Doesn't work on vehicals who pay Oh yeah 2 points per storm bolter.
Sisters of Battle they pay 2 points per storm bolter, do they have Bolter Discipline? Hint the answer is NO.
Is a Storm bolter 2 points each yes.
Is a beta bolter free No, it's to justify 1 or 2 of the extra points GW want marines to be worth.
Is beta bolter rule on a storm bolter worth 2 points, no it's not but a marine with a Storm bolter hasn't payed 2 points he's payed 3 or 4 points for that shooting.
Doesn't work on vehicals who pay Oh yeah 2 points per storm bolter.
Sisters of Battle they pay 2 points per storm bolter, do they have Bolter Discipline? Hint the answer is NO.
Is a Storm bolter 2 points each yes.
Is a beta bolter free No, it's to justify 1 or 2 of the extra points GW want marines to be worth.
Is beta bolter rule on a storm bolter worth 2 points, no it's not but a marine with a Storm bolter hasn't payed 2 points he's payed 3 or 4 points for that shooting.
So you're saying a Storm Bolter is a 2 point gun, and Beta Bolters makes Marines fairly costed? That's pretty optimistic of you.
And even with only 2 shots on a BS 3+ platform, it still does 5/9 unsaved wounds to Boyz (.56 wounds) as compared to a BS 5+ DDD! Big Shoota, that does 35/54 (.65 wounds).
So, for less than half the points, it does more than 80% of the damage.
Doesn't work on vehicals who pay Oh yeah 2 points per storm bolter.
Sisters of Battle they pay 2 points per storm bolter, do they have Bolter Discipline? Hint the answer is NO.
Is a Storm bolter 2 points each yes.
Is a beta bolter free No, it's to justify 1 or 2 of the extra points GW want marines to be worth.
Is beta bolter rule on a storm bolter worth 2 points, no it's not but a marine with a Storm bolter hasn't payed 2 points he's payed 3 or 4 points for that shooting.
So you're saying a Storm Bolter is a 2 point gun, and Beta Bolters makes Marines fairly costed? That's pretty optimistic of you.
And even with only 2 shots on a BS 3+ platform, it still does 5/9 unsaved wounds to Boyz (.56 wounds) as compared to a BS 5+ DDD! Big Shoota, that does 35/54 (.65 wounds).
So, for less than half the points, it does more than 80% of the damage.
I never said GW could point things properly also beta bolter rule accounts for 1 or 2 points per Marine, it make intercessors actually feel less like a liability, the issue is as has been 1W elite infantry doesn't work in the edition of rerolls upon rerolls with such a flat wounding chart and the changes to the Ap system.
Just for some perspective on the matter, in a 2,000 point list paying an extra point or not paying an extra point is about how many points total?
I my impression of the actually thread (only partly acknowledging the poll) seems to have been largely been over 3 points vs. 4 points. Which has me thinking isn't that only like 20 points more? Which is like 1% of an army list? I don't play Orks outside of Kill Team so I don't know exactly how many points we are talking about here.
Don't get me wrong, I am good distance from the competitive side of town, but it does seem that a lot of digital ink has been used over that 1% here assuming my guess on the over cost of said points is correct.
Saturmorn Carvilli wrote: Just for some perspective on the matter, in a 2,000 point list paying an extra point or not paying an extra point is about how many points total?
I my impression of the actually thread (only partly acknowledging the poll) seems to have been largely been over 3 points vs. 4 points. Which has me thinking isn't that only like 20 points more? Which is like 1% of an army list? I don't play Orks outside of Kill Team so I don't know exactly how many points we are talking about here.
Don't get me wrong, I am good distance from the competitive side of town, but it does seem that a lot of digital ink has been used over that 1% here assuming my guess on the over cost of said points is correct.
For orkz at the moment its a bit weirder then that. because at the moment, if you lowered the price to 4ppm and gave them more shots like I suggested it would actually COST orkz more because at the moment we don't take Big Shootas....pretty much ever, unless the unit is forced to I.E. Trukkz or some Planes/buggies.
But lets put it this way, in your average, run of the mill ork list, you will see roughly 3 full mobz of boyz and a few vehicles that can equip big shootas. So on average they could bring upwards of 12-14 Big Shootas. If you gave them a 1pt price cut and increased ROF to 5 you would see orkz paying 44-56pts MORE in weapons that previously hadn't been taken. Thats anywhere from 60-70 S5 shots that hadn't been there before.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote: S5 weapons are very generalist in 8th. They wound the magic t8 on a 5.
This is true, but, as I showed earlier using a formula for beta stormbolters, they inflict MORE damage per point then a Big Shoota does even though they are S5 and the storm bolter is S4. While S does matter, it doesn't negate # of shots and Ballistic Skill.
Except your making 1 massive assumption that all storm bolters benefit from Beta Bolters, they don't.
A storm bolter is 2 shots at 24 it's only 4 shots at 12.
If the targets at 12 inches why arnt the orks just charging anyway?
Marine's have already payed points for Beta Bolters it's GW's concession that they over point costed marines, ie it's not a 2 point weapon its a 2 point weapon under a 1-2 point ability.
Even then Beta bolter is conditional, if your forcing the marines to stay still while the orks moves it's not a 24 inch range and a 36 inch range its 24 vrs 41 inches or an additional 17 inches of range for the orks. 17 inches is certainly worth a lot of difference in points.
But just incase your wondering Sisters also pay 2 points per storm bolter withou beta Bolter rules.
But at this point it's become clear noone actually is willing to listen you've already decided that you have all the answers.
How often do I see tactical Marines moving?.......basically never. You might see 1 tac squad move around a bit to get into a better position but for the most part they are part of the gunline. Also, you mention orkz technically have a threat range of 41 with those Big Shootas because they are assault....well you are correct...but lets see, how often do I bring Big Shootas right now in boyz mobs....ohh right, never. So at the moment their threat range is nil because they don't get on the table. But even if they do, my boyz mobs are doing 1 of 3 things. 1: Camping in the back and near a Weirdboy so they can get Da Jumped....Big shootas are useless for them and even with 41' range they won't hit anything because they are probably hiding out of LOS to avoid getting pulped. 2: On the deployment line getting ready to WAAAAAGGHHHHH, and they will be within 18' of their targets turn 1 because they will be advancing which further reduces the accuracy to 6+ and the added range is useless and 3: Safely off the table in reserve, waiting to get tellyported onto the table 8' from the enemy because they are Evil Sunz and will be making a charge that turn.....41' range again useless. So the range for boyz is USELESS 9 times out of 10.
Ice_can wrote: I'm trying to follow the logic here as to why have people become so looked in on a stormbolter vrs a big shoota as a comparison it's not even close to having the same role.
It's an Assualt Heavy Bolter,
Guard pay 8 points on a heavy weapon on BS4+
Orks pay 5 points on an assualt weapon on BS5+
Guard pay 8 points for a heavy bolter move and hit on 5+
Orks pay 5 points for a big shoota move and hit on 5+
Guard advance and can't shoot
Orks Advance and hit on 6's
That single Ap-1 cost 3 points
That doesn't make a big shoota look super over costed?
issue is, the big shota looks not overcosted compared to a Heavy bolter because the heavy bolter is overcosted aswell.
Also application, again. the Big shoota is more like a souped up heavy stubber, which at 2 pts is actually a decent gun, personally don't belive +1 S is worth 3pts more.
Marine's pay 10 points per heavy bolter that is fun.
Ok a heavy bolter is overcosted but by how much then?
Is a heacy bolter a 6 point or 7 point weapon or 5? You could then argue that a big shoot should be 1 or 2 points less but making it 2pts like some are calling for is a gw level overcorrection
CSM do too pay 10 pts / HB.
And how often do you see them? Especially when the Reaper chaincannon has 2 more shots for the same price for one equipment slot?
I'll refer to the Heavy stubber, it's targets are the same, light squishy infantry, same applies to the Big shoota, same to the heavy bolter, same to the Reaper.
The reaper has one significant advantage, it is in a dex that can double it's rate and a singular weapon, meaning saturation is easily achievable. This is what makes the reaper work. (and also the reason for the rather steep pricing but atleast it is playable)
The heavy bolter and big shootason the other hand suffer for beeing too expensive and lacking saturation options. Meaning that for the output of 1 reaper, you need 2 Heavy bolters in the same squad + additional 2/3'rds of one to just equate the ammount of shots. 1 Havoc with reaper is 34 pts. 2. havocs alone are 28 pts + 20 for the heavy bolters. And we have not yet talked about VotWL which would make Heavy bolters actually decent against medium tanks, were it not for the fact that reapers again stack up better.
Ig has another issue. They pay a fairer price for the heavy bolter, but pay more for a heavy bolter then for a mortar. Which beats the heavy bolter in terms of range and LOS usage. (also averages more shots and with certain traits alot more of them)
Targets are again the same. So why pay 3 pts more for +1 S and -1 AP when you can generate more shots overall?
Now the heavy stubber shows up. And for regiments that can field them (or armies ) on line infantry, the job is the same. Now however you pay 1/8th for the equal ammount of shots, one less S and no armor penetration. The targets you want to shoot with it however remain the same, and virtually T3 targets (75% off all infantry really) treat it the same as the heavy bolter.
It isn't even a competition there.
This is also why i belive, if the stubber is worth 2 pts, which it is, the Big shoota should be 3 and the heavy bolter 4 /5 respectively. And precedence was created by the heavy stubber itself, which got it's price cut in half.
Regarding the Heavy Bolter vs Chaingun comparison, including Autocannons, keep in mind that for the points you're looking at:
24" S5 Heavy 8 D1
36" S5 Heavy 6 D1
48" S7 Heavy 4 D2
In this way, 2 shots less for an extra foot of range isn't exactly a bad deal for someone that might be camping. However, Chaos Marines don't have a shortage of ways to get close, and the opportunity cost for taking up a weapon slot is there. The real tragedy is the comparison to the Autocannon. Looking at the points, the Chaincannon and Autocannons have distinctive roles. The Heavy Bolter tries to be a TAC weapon and really isn't one.
Ice_can wrote: I'm trying to follow the logic here as to why have people become so looked in on a stormbolter vrs a big shoota as a comparison it's not even close to having the same role.
It's an Assualt Heavy Bolter,
Guard pay 8 points on a heavy weapon on BS4+
Orks pay 5 points on an assualt weapon on BS5+
Guard pay 8 points for a heavy bolter move and hit on 5+
Orks pay 5 points for a big shoota move and hit on 5+
Guard advance and can't shoot
Orks Advance and hit on 6's
That single Ap-1 cost 3 points
That doesn't make a big shoota look super over costed?
issue is, the big shota looks not overcosted compared to a Heavy bolter because the heavy bolter is overcosted aswell.
Also application, again. the Big shoota is more like a souped up heavy stubber, which at 2 pts is actually a decent gun, personally don't belive +1 S is worth 3pts more.
Marine's pay 10 points per heavy bolter that is fun.
Ok a heavy bolter is overcosted but by how much then?
Is a heacy bolter a 6 point or 7 point weapon or 5? You could then argue that a big shoot should be 1 or 2 points less but making it 2pts like some are calling for is a gw level overcorrection
CSM do too pay 10 pts / HB.
And how often do you see them? Especially when the Reaper chaincannon has 2 more shots for the same price for one equipment slot?
I'll refer to the Heavy stubber, it's targets are the same, light squishy infantry, same applies to the Big shoota, same to the heavy bolter, same to the Reaper.
The reaper has one significant advantage, it is in a dex that can double it's rate and a singular weapon, meaning saturation is easily achievable. This is what makes the reaper work. (and also the reason for the rather steep pricing but atleast it is playable)
The heavy bolter and big shootason the other hand suffer for beeing too expensive and lacking saturation options. Meaning that for the output of 1 reaper, you need 2 Heavy bolters in the same squad + additional 2/3'rds of one to just equate the ammount of shots. 1 Havoc with reaper is 34 pts. 2. havocs alone are 28 pts + 20 for the heavy bolters. And we have not yet talked about VotWL which would make Heavy bolters actually decent against medium tanks, were it not for the fact that reapers again stack up better.
Ig has another issue. They pay a fairer price for the heavy bolter, but pay more for a heavy bolter then for a mortar. Which beats the heavy bolter in terms of range and LOS usage. (also averages more shots and with certain traits alot more of them)
Targets are again the same. So why pay 3 pts more for +1 S and -1 AP when you can generate more shots overall?
Now the heavy stubber shows up. And for regiments that can field them (or armies ) on line infantry, the job is the same. Now however you pay 1/8th for the equal ammount of shots, one less S and no armor penetration. The targets you want to shoot with it however remain the same, and virtually T3 targets (75% off all infantry really) treat it the same as the heavy bolter.
It isn't even a competition there.
This is also why i belive, if the stubber is worth 2 pts, which it is, the Big shoota should be 3 and the heavy bolter 4 /5 respectively. And precedence was created by the heavy stubber itself, which got it's price cut in half.
Regarding the Heavy Bolter vs Chaingun comparison, including Autocannons, keep in mind that for the points you're looking at:
24" S5 Heavy 8 D1
36" S5 Heavy 6 D1
48" S7 Heavy 4 D2
In this way, 2 shots less for an extra foot of range isn't exactly a bad deal for someone that might be camping. However, Chaos Marines don't have a shortage of ways to get close, and the opportunity cost for taking up a weapon slot is there. The real tragedy is the comparison to the Autocannon. Looking at the points, the Chaincannon and Autocannons have distinctive roles. The Heavy Bolter tries to be a TAC weapon and really isn't one.
No Slayer-Fan, you need to incorporate the carriers price imo.
Meaning that taking up 1 slot is a lot cheaper overall then two slots since i pay then additionally for another carrier.
Making the reaper a lot more points effective. If I were to field 5 reaper havocs that would be 150 pts.
10 hb havocs would be 240 pts.
The single slot makes it distinct enough.
As for the AC.
As a long term Chaos player it is the equivalent of a swiss army knife. It is usefull, decent, provides good baseline damage and firerate, add in VotLW and profit from the rather broken flat wound Chart aswell as cacophony and you got a unit that reliably can deal with heavy infantry and vehicles.
I would however consider fielding heavy bolters if they were cheaper.
Or available in higher saturarion beyond havocs.
Edit: and assuming the guns were costed for that flater wounding then all S5 weapon upgrades will remain suffering from beeing in a bad spot.
Ice_can wrote: I'm trying to follow the logic here as to why have people become so looked in on a stormbolter vrs a big shoota as a comparison it's not even close to having the same role.
It's an Assualt Heavy Bolter,
Guard pay 8 points on a heavy weapon on BS4+
Orks pay 5 points on an assualt weapon on BS5+
Guard pay 8 points for a heavy bolter move and hit on 5+
Orks pay 5 points for a big shoota move and hit on 5+
Guard advance and can't shoot
Orks Advance and hit on 6's
That single Ap-1 cost 3 points
That doesn't make a big shoota look super over costed?
issue is, the big shota looks not overcosted compared to a Heavy bolter because the heavy bolter is overcosted aswell.
Also application, again. the Big shoota is more like a souped up heavy stubber, which at 2 pts is actually a decent gun, personally don't belive +1 S is worth 3pts more.
Marine's pay 10 points per heavy bolter that is fun.
Ok a heavy bolter is overcosted but by how much then?
Is a heacy bolter a 6 point or 7 point weapon or 5? You could then argue that a big shoot should be 1 or 2 points less but making it 2pts like some are calling for is a gw level overcorrection
CSM do too pay 10 pts / HB.
And how often do you see them? Especially when the Reaper chaincannon has 2 more shots for the same price for one equipment slot?
I'll refer to the Heavy stubber, it's targets are the same, light squishy infantry, same applies to the Big shoota, same to the heavy bolter, same to the Reaper.
The reaper has one significant advantage, it is in a dex that can double it's rate and a singular weapon, meaning saturation is easily achievable. This is what makes the reaper work. (and also the reason for the rather steep pricing but atleast it is playable)
The heavy bolter and big shootason the other hand suffer for beeing too expensive and lacking saturation options. Meaning that for the output of 1 reaper, you need 2 Heavy bolters in the same squad + additional 2/3'rds of one to just equate the ammount of shots. 1 Havoc with reaper is 34 pts. 2. havocs alone are 28 pts + 20 for the heavy bolters. And we have not yet talked about VotWL which would make Heavy bolters actually decent against medium tanks, were it not for the fact that reapers again stack up better.
Ig has another issue. They pay a fairer price for the heavy bolter, but pay more for a heavy bolter then for a mortar. Which beats the heavy bolter in terms of range and LOS usage. (also averages more shots and with certain traits alot more of them)
Targets are again the same. So why pay 3 pts more for +1 S and -1 AP when you can generate more shots overall?
Now the heavy stubber shows up. And for regiments that can field them (or armies ) on line infantry, the job is the same. Now however you pay 1/8th for the equal ammount of shots, one less S and no armor penetration. The targets you want to shoot with it however remain the same, and virtually T3 targets (75% off all infantry really) treat it the same as the heavy bolter.
It isn't even a competition there.
This is also why i belive, if the stubber is worth 2 pts, which it is, the Big shoota should be 3 and the heavy bolter 4 /5 respectively. And precedence was created by the heavy stubber itself, which got it's price cut in half.
Regarding the Heavy Bolter vs Chaingun comparison, including Autocannons, keep in mind that for the points you're looking at:
24" S5 Heavy 8 D1
36" S5 Heavy 6 D1
48" S7 Heavy 4 D2
In this way, 2 shots less for an extra foot of range isn't exactly a bad deal for someone that might be camping. However, Chaos Marines don't have a shortage of ways to get close, and the opportunity cost for taking up a weapon slot is there. The real tragedy is the comparison to the Autocannon. Looking at the points, the Chaincannon and Autocannons have distinctive roles. The Heavy Bolter tries to be a TAC weapon and really isn't one.
No Slayer-Fan, you need to incorporate the carriers price imo.
Meaning that taking up 1 slot is a lot cheaper overall then two slots since i pay then additionally for another carrier.
Making the reaper a lot more points effective. If I were to field 5 reaper havocs that would be 150 pts.
10 hb havocs would be 240 pts.
The single slot makes it distinct enough.
As for the AC.
As a long term Chaos player it is the equivalent of a swiss army knife. It is usefull, decent, provides good baseline damage and firerate, add in VotLW and profit from the rather broken flat wound Chart aswell as cacophony and you got a unit that reliably can deal with heavy infantry and vehicles.
I would however consider fielding heavy bolters if they were cheaper.
Or available in higher saturarion beyond havocs.
Edit: and assuming the guns were costed for that flater wounding then all S5 weapon upgrades will remain suffering from beeing in a bad spot.
I already mentioned about that opportunity cost of the models + weapon slots. I simply didn't elaborate on it much as I thought this comparison to be more important.
Ice_can wrote: I'm trying to follow the logic here as to why have people become so looked in on a stormbolter vrs a big shoota as a comparison it's not even close to having the same role.
It's an Assualt Heavy Bolter,
Guard pay 8 points on a heavy weapon on BS4+
Orks pay 5 points on an assualt weapon on BS5+
Guard pay 8 points for a heavy bolter move and hit on 5+
Orks pay 5 points for a big shoota move and hit on 5+
Guard advance and can't shoot
Orks Advance and hit on 6's
That single Ap-1 cost 3 points
That doesn't make a big shoota look super over costed?
issue is, the big shota looks not overcosted compared to a Heavy bolter because the heavy bolter is overcosted aswell.
Also application, again. the Big shoota is more like a souped up heavy stubber, which at 2 pts is actually a decent gun, personally don't belive +1 S is worth 3pts more.
Marine's pay 10 points per heavy bolter that is fun.
Ok a heavy bolter is overcosted but by how much then?
Is a heacy bolter a 6 point or 7 point weapon or 5? You could then argue that a big shoot should be 1 or 2 points less but making it 2pts like some are calling for is a gw level overcorrection
CSM do too pay 10 pts / HB.
And how often do you see them? Especially when the Reaper chaincannon has 2 more shots for the same price for one equipment slot?
I'll refer to the Heavy stubber, it's targets are the same, light squishy infantry, same applies to the Big shoota, same to the heavy bolter, same to the Reaper.
The reaper has one significant advantage, it is in a dex that can double it's rate and a singular weapon, meaning saturation is easily achievable. This is what makes the reaper work. (and also the reason for the rather steep pricing but atleast it is playable)
The heavy bolter and big shootason the other hand suffer for beeing too expensive and lacking saturation options. Meaning that for the output of 1 reaper, you need 2 Heavy bolters in the same squad + additional 2/3'rds of one to just equate the ammount of shots. 1 Havoc with reaper is 34 pts. 2. havocs alone are 28 pts + 20 for the heavy bolters. And we have not yet talked about VotWL which would make Heavy bolters actually decent against medium tanks, were it not for the fact that reapers again stack up better.
Ig has another issue. They pay a fairer price for the heavy bolter, but pay more for a heavy bolter then for a mortar. Which beats the heavy bolter in terms of range and LOS usage. (also averages more shots and with certain traits alot more of them)
Targets are again the same. So why pay 3 pts more for +1 S and -1 AP when you can generate more shots overall?
Now the heavy stubber shows up. And for regiments that can field them (or armies ) on line infantry, the job is the same. Now however you pay 1/8th for the equal ammount of shots, one less S and no armor penetration. The targets you want to shoot with it however remain the same, and virtually T3 targets (75% off all infantry really) treat it the same as the heavy bolter.
It isn't even a competition there.
This is also why i belive, if the stubber is worth 2 pts, which it is, the Big shoota should be 3 and the heavy bolter 4 /5 respectively. And precedence was created by the heavy stubber itself, which got it's price cut in half.
Regarding the Heavy Bolter vs Chaingun comparison, including Autocannons, keep in mind that for the points you're looking at:
24" S5 Heavy 8 D1
36" S5 Heavy 6 D1
48" S7 Heavy 4 D2
In this way, 2 shots less for an extra foot of range isn't exactly a bad deal for someone that might be camping. However, Chaos Marines don't have a shortage of ways to get close, and the opportunity cost for taking up a weapon slot is there. The real tragedy is the comparison to the Autocannon. Looking at the points, the Chaincannon and Autocannons have distinctive roles. The Heavy Bolter tries to be a TAC weapon and really isn't one.
No Slayer-Fan, you need to incorporate the carriers price imo.
Meaning that taking up 1 slot is a lot cheaper overall then two slots since i pay then additionally for another carrier.
Making the reaper a lot more points effective. If I were to field 5 reaper havocs that would be 150 pts.
10 hb havocs would be 240 pts.
The single slot makes it distinct enough.
As for the AC.
As a long term Chaos player it is the equivalent of a swiss army knife. It is usefull, decent, provides good baseline damage and firerate, add in VotLW and profit from the rather broken flat wound Chart aswell as cacophony and you got a unit that reliably can deal with heavy infantry and vehicles.
I would however consider fielding heavy bolters if they were cheaper.
Or available in higher saturarion beyond havocs.
Edit: and assuming the guns were costed for that flater wounding then all S5 weapon upgrades will remain suffering from beeing in a bad spot.
I already mentioned about that opportunity cost of the models + weapon slots. I simply didn't elaborate on it much as I thought this comparison to be more important.
Fair point, but the issue is the oppurtunity cost is just really in that case something Chaos has to worry about.
The heavy bolter itself is just overpriced for the Imperial side and that has probably to do with my last point.
Just as the big shoot which imo falls into the same rabid hole.
Ice_can wrote: I'm trying to follow the logic here as to why have people become so looked in on a stormbolter vrs a big shoota as a comparison it's not even close to having the same role.
It's an Assualt Heavy Bolter,
Guard pay 8 points on a heavy weapon on BS4+
Orks pay 5 points on an assualt weapon on BS5+
Guard pay 8 points for a heavy bolter move and hit on 5+
Orks pay 5 points for a big shoota move and hit on 5+
Guard advance and can't shoot
Orks Advance and hit on 6's
That single Ap-1 cost 3 points
That doesn't make a big shoota look super over costed?
issue is, the big shota looks not overcosted compared to a Heavy bolter because the heavy bolter is overcosted aswell.
Also application, again. the Big shoota is more like a souped up heavy stubber, which at 2 pts is actually a decent gun, personally don't belive +1 S is worth 3pts more.
Marine's pay 10 points per heavy bolter that is fun.
Ok a heavy bolter is overcosted but by how much then?
Is a heacy bolter a 6 point or 7 point weapon or 5? You could then argue that a big shoot should be 1 or 2 points less but making it 2pts like some are calling for is a gw level overcorrection
CSM do too pay 10 pts / HB.
And how often do you see them? Especially when the Reaper chaincannon has 2 more shots for the same price for one equipment slot?
I'll refer to the Heavy stubber, it's targets are the same, light squishy infantry, same applies to the Big shoota, same to the heavy bolter, same to the Reaper.
The reaper has one significant advantage, it is in a dex that can double it's rate and a singular weapon, meaning saturation is easily achievable. This is what makes the reaper work. (and also the reason for the rather steep pricing but atleast it is playable)
The heavy bolter and big shootason the other hand suffer for beeing too expensive and lacking saturation options. Meaning that for the output of 1 reaper, you need 2 Heavy bolters in the same squad + additional 2/3'rds of one to just equate the ammount of shots. 1 Havoc with reaper is 34 pts. 2. havocs alone are 28 pts + 20 for the heavy bolters. And we have not yet talked about VotWL which would make Heavy bolters actually decent against medium tanks, were it not for the fact that reapers again stack up better.
Ig has another issue. They pay a fairer price for the heavy bolter, but pay more for a heavy bolter then for a mortar. Which beats the heavy bolter in terms of range and LOS usage. (also averages more shots and with certain traits alot more of them)
Targets are again the same. So why pay 3 pts more for +1 S and -1 AP when you can generate more shots overall?
Now the heavy stubber shows up. And for regiments that can field them (or armies ) on line infantry, the job is the same. Now however you pay 1/8th for the equal ammount of shots, one less S and no armor penetration. The targets you want to shoot with it however remain the same, and virtually T3 targets (75% off all infantry really) treat it the same as the heavy bolter.
It isn't even a competition there.
This is also why i belive, if the stubber is worth 2 pts, which it is, the Big shoota should be 3 and the heavy bolter 4 /5 respectively. And precedence was created by the heavy stubber itself, which got it's price cut in half.
Regarding the Heavy Bolter vs Chaingun comparison, including Autocannons, keep in mind that for the points you're looking at:
24" S5 Heavy 8 D1
36" S5 Heavy 6 D1
48" S7 Heavy 4 D2
In this way, 2 shots less for an extra foot of range isn't exactly a bad deal for someone that might be camping. However, Chaos Marines don't have a shortage of ways to get close, and the opportunity cost for taking up a weapon slot is there. The real tragedy is the comparison to the Autocannon. Looking at the points, the Chaincannon and Autocannons have distinctive roles. The Heavy Bolter tries to be a TAC weapon and really isn't one.
No Slayer-Fan, you need to incorporate the carriers price imo.
Meaning that taking up 1 slot is a lot cheaper overall then two slots since i pay then additionally for another carrier.
Making the reaper a lot more points effective. If I were to field 5 reaper havocs that would be 150 pts.
10 hb havocs would be 240 pts.
The single slot makes it distinct enough.
As for the AC.
As a long term Chaos player it is the equivalent of a swiss army knife. It is usefull, decent, provides good baseline damage and firerate, add in VotLW and profit from the rather broken flat wound Chart aswell as cacophony and you got a unit that reliably can deal with heavy infantry and vehicles.
I would however consider fielding heavy bolters if they were cheaper.
Or available in higher saturarion beyond havocs.
Edit: and assuming the guns were costed for that flater wounding then all S5 weapon upgrades will remain suffering from beeing in a bad spot.
I already mentioned about that opportunity cost of the models + weapon slots. I simply didn't elaborate on it much as I thought this comparison to be more important.
Fair point, but the issue is the oppurtunity cost is just really in that case something Chaos has to worry about.
The heavy bolter itself is just overpriced for the Imperial side and that has probably to do with my last point.
Just as the big shoot which imo falls into the same rabid hole.
That's why one of my fun lists uses 3 Autocannon Havocs and 3 squads of six Chosen all with Combi-Bolters and a Chaincannon (add Warpsmiths if you like to be stupid like me) all coming out of Termites. Expensive but FUN for a Beta Strike list. Use The Purge for hilarity or Alpha Legion to be reasonable.
I'm terribly off topic though. I will say Heavy Bolters are reasonable on Tarantula Sentry Guns.
Eonfuzz wrote: ITT: Ork players complain about Big Shoota prices, Marine players make it about space marine heavy bolters.
That's not what happened. Someone asked what would a justification be for 6 points, to which you could like at the Heavy Bolter. Then the discussion kinda naturally talks about everything like usual here.
Why pick out this particular weapon? Cant you just not use it? Like i do with 90% of my codex? I cant even really use my signature units because they are so miscosted.
Martel732 wrote: Why pick out this particular weapon? Cant you just not use it? Like i do with 90% of my codex? I cant even really use my signature units because they are so miscosted.
Why not have a codex where all options are viable? Semper (Who created this thread) plays orks, and wants the same thing you do.
Honestly the problem with this forum is it's filled with armchair designers, some with good ideas and opinions and the others with hot garbage.
But no matter what we say or craft on these forums it essentially amounts to nothing, aside from pointless and aimless drama.
Long range assault on units that want to be in close range vs short range machine gun on units that, strangely enough, also want to be in close range. You're right, they aren't comparable. One of them actually improves the area that the unit excels at, while the other costs 2.5x as much and gives a slight buff to an area the unit is weak in.
As someone said, how many points do you put into big shootas? To some extent this is a debate on how many angels are on the head of a pin.
With that said, from an academic standpoint its obviously a crap upgrade for boys at 5 points. I don't see why "there are lots of crap options, suck it up" should be a reasonable response.
In theory yes, the ability to shoot 36" is worth "something". But in the game as missions currently work, its not worth very much.
Lets say you blaze away with 3 big shootas:
Shooting Marines:
9*1/3*7/6*2/3*1/3=0.777 wounds go through
Shooting Guardsmen:
9*1/3*7/6*2/3*2/3=1.555 wounds go through
Shooting a Rhino:
9*1/3*7/6*1/3*1/3=0.3888 wounds go through.
In other words if you are taking your big shootas to apply long range pressure, or plink off some remaining wounds, or menace models on distant objectives, then... its probably not going to work out.
If you can get regular shootas into range (not necessarily difficult, because you are probably Evil Sunz like everyone else) then you are getting a fractional increase in damage output, for a lot of points.
Shooting marines (about as good a target as you can get).
You get:
With shootas for 210 points.
60*1/3*7/6*1/2*1/3 wounds.
With big shootas for 225 points.
((54*1/3*7/6*1/2*1/3)+(9*1/3*7/6*2/3*1/3)) wounds.
With wounds being worth 13 points, this works out at paying 7% more (225/210) to do just 2.6% more damage. Against T3 its even worse. Against T5+ its a bit better, but as the rhino example shows above, bigshootas against vaguely cheap wounds with T6 and a reasonable save is pretty awful.
If you break these numbers down, purely for shooting marines (yes yes, I know), you get a higher upgrade to your shooting potential than the cost when big shootas are 3 points. I am not convinced they would be an autotake at that level.
With a storm bolter its more obvious. For a regular marine, you double his shooting output in exchange for less than 1/6th additional points. While there are potentially issues with making your units "softer", this level of damage increase per point is a non brainer.
The humble Heavy Bolter is in a different position. With its 3 shots, S5, AP-1, it may not appear a terrible gun. Really though its only "good" against T4, 3-4+ armour saved units. And unfortunately the meta has evolved in such a way that such units are not especially relevant (because they die to everything). Its not very good against T6+ models with a reasonable save and multiple wounds. Its not good against T3 chaff models.
I guess you can just knock it down in points to the point where it "is" efficient versus those two targets - but that would in turn make it exceptionally good versus regular marine stat lines.
Eonfuzz wrote: ITT: Ork players complain about Big Shoota prices, Marine players make it about space marine heavy bolters.
That's not what happened. Someone asked what would a justification be for 6 points, to which you could like at the Heavy Bolter. Then the discussion kinda naturally talks about everything like usual here.
Martel732 wrote: Why pick out this particular weapon? Cant you just not use it? Like i do with 90% of my codex? I cant even really use my signature units because they are so miscosted.
Comedy that writes itself
Just waiting for Karol to show up to tell the marine players that they are fine compared to GK.
For the marines whose argumentation is similar to "no one deserves a buff until I get one": You deserves to have gakky codex until the end of time.
Compared to marines, we still have four years of buffs left, and marines haven't had enough nerfs yet.
In addition the next Marine codex should nerf all currently viable builds and have a new unit mandatory for any semi-viable build that costs $2 per point spent.
Afterwards, you get a supplement that requires you to buy 12 boxes of tactical marines to compete at all.
Played a game today where I brought for fun units. I included 3 Scrapjets which come stock with 2 Twin Big Shootas. I also included Big shootas on my boyz mobz because again, this was strictly a for fun game.
The game ended after Turn 4 due to my opponent giving up, The Scrapjets managed to shoot a grand total of 6 times before they were all dead in turn 3, about 72 shots. Those 72 shots managed to plink 4 wounds TOTAL off of a T7 3+ Save model....thats it. The rest of the weapons didn't fair much better mind you, 1 more reason why the scrapjets and the new buggies in general are all trash units.
The Boyz mobz had 9 big shootas total, they survived until turn 4, literally all of them. These put out 108 shots, in 4 turns they managed to kill 3 Space Marines.
Overall, the Big shootas were a waste of points, if I could have taken the Scrapjets for 20pts cheaper (No Big Shootas) i would have. On the boyz units, they did nothing to add to the unit and in fact, since all 3 mobz got into combat, those weapons actually HURT the unit's ability to damage its opponents by taking away 3 attacks each turn.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jidmah wrote: Compared to marines, we still have four years of buffs left, and marines haven't had enough nerfs yet.
In addition the next Marine codex should nerf all currently viable builds and have a new unit mandatory for any semi-viable build that costs $2 per point spent.
Afterwards, you get a supplement that requires you to buy 12 boxes of tactical marines to compete at all.
If you want blind justice, go all the way.
LMAO! The Mek Gun and the Green Tide God that was a terrible supplement, strictly designed to get people to buy models by the boatload. Sad they forgot that orkz either A: Already have boatloads OR B: Will spend 1/3rd the money to just Kustom make the new unit Never underestimate an orkz desire to "Git Loot'n"
Martel732 wrote: I think Orks have gotten enough buffs for a while. Their suffering factor is pretty low atm.
Hey guys, I'm an edgy and grimdark and goth soul.
My Ork army doesn't enough suffering to sate my sadomasochistic nature, does anyone have any good recommendations?
SemperMortis wrote: Played a game today where I brought for fun units. I included 3 Scrapjets which come stock with 2 Twin Big Shootas. I also included Big shootas on my boyz mobz because again, this was strictly a for fun game.
The game ended after Turn 4 due to my opponent giving up, The Scrapjets managed to shoot a grand total of 6 times before they were all dead in turn 3, about 72 shots. Those 72 shots managed to plink 4 wounds TOTAL off of a T7 3+ Save model....thats it. The rest of the weapons didn't fair much better mind you, 1 more reason why the scrapjets and the new buggies in general are all trash units.
The Boyz mobz had 9 big shootas total, they survived until turn 4, literally all of them. These put out 108 shots, in 4 turns they managed to kill 3 Space Marines.
Overall, the Big shootas were a waste of points, if I could have taken the Scrapjets for 20pts cheaper (No Big Shootas) i would have. On the boyz units, they did nothing to add to the unit and in fact, since all 3 mobz got into combat, those weapons actually HURT the unit's ability to damage its opponents by taking away 3 attacks each turn.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jidmah wrote: Compared to marines, we still have four years of buffs left, and marines haven't had enough nerfs yet.
In addition the next Marine codex should nerf all currently viable builds and have a new unit mandatory for any semi-viable build that costs $2 per point spent.
Afterwards, you get a supplement that requires you to buy 12 boxes of tactical marines to compete at all.
If you want blind justice, go all the way.
LMAO! The Mek Gun and the Green Tide God that was a terrible supplement, strictly designed to get people to buy models by the boatload. Sad they forgot that orkz either A: Already have boatloads OR B: Will spend 1/3rd the money to just Kustom make the new unit Never underestimate an orkz desire to "Git Loot'n"
I get heavy deja-vu feelings from my humble begginings as a yoff in 40k.
I still remmber people in 6th and 7th telling me orks were fine and that it was ok that our shooting was super over costed and suppossed to be worse than other armies. Also that our vehicles and units were suppossed to be weaker and die in droves. Also that it was ok for use to not be as good in combat becasue we had so many models.
7th was bascally designed to put our codex at the bottom of the pack. the casualties from the front meant your nobz never got in combat because they had to be in the back for protection.
Eonfuzz wrote: Now that marines are getting free, and better, Dakka Dakka Dakka, as well as an Ork Attack statline - I think this question needs to re-surface again.
Gotta agree with Jidmah here, vanilla marines weren't doing so great as they basically boiled down to gorillaman+hellblasters+parking lot for a lot of their builds. As a BT enthusiast, I could see how iffy their army was from a design standpoint. The DDD! equivalent only comes from bolt weaponry and only for CF and IF, so that's not a good comparison. Shock Assault is good, don't get me wrong, but it isn't as big a game changer as it is for their entire army benefiting from chapter tactics. In any case, we'll (hopefully) get the needed changes for our army when the next CA swings around this winter.
Jidmah wrote: Considering how irrelevant another codex is to the health of ours, I don't think so.
Mixed reaction from me. For the most part it looks like most of the SM's chapter traits are similar (no surprise there) to Ork Kulture's but they get a bit more benefit from them.
Crimson fists: +1 WS in CC against any unit with 5 or more models....most units are 10+ so this is iffy but will likely be useful, also puts the CF player in a situation where they want to min/max to get as many small squads as possible. But here is the big part, all of their bolt weapons generate an extra HIT not shot on a 6+. So if they have 6 shots statistically they will generate 5 hits. this is basically just giving them 2+ to hit with bolt weapons without actually saying it. DX3 gives orks an extra SHOT not an extra hit.
Black Templars: They get Ere we go AND a 5+ FNP against Mortal wounds, not bad.
Imperial Fists: Ignores cover and hit rolls of 6 with bolt weapons generate 1 extra hit.
Raven Guard: -1 to hit when in terrain and gets cover when they are 12' or further away from the enemy....or basically almost the entire game. So this is Blood Axes on steroids. Blood Axes are 18' range not 12 to get a cover save and they get to charge OR shoot if they fell back. I'll take ravenguard every single day of the week thank you very much.
Salamanders: DeffSkullz +1. Can reroll 1 hit and 1 wound per phase basically and are immune armor loss from -1AP weapons.
Iron Hands: This is just SnakeBites +2. gives the entire army 6+ FNP AND Overwatch on 5s AND doubles the # of wounds on models with damage charts for the purpose of bracketing. So to reduce that Land Raider to its 2nd bracket now requires 50% more damage.
Smurfs are still smurfy nothing really changed for them, and white scars are just evil sunz that instead of extra movement get to charge even if they advanced. Ohh and they get no penalty to heavy weapons for moving.
But i do agree that this doesn't necessarily harm orkz. In my opinion though it does bring back the debate that Ork boyz should be 6ppm not 7. The only real buff they got in the codex was dakkax3 and the BFD Melta bomb per 10 orkz. Now that 2 SM factions have a similar ability i think going back to 6 makes sense.
Automatically Appended Next Post: But, the big thing in regards to Big shoota's discussion. 2 factions are now able to seriously out dakka a big shoota with a weapon that is 40% the price.
30 stormbolters (Common denominator) cost 60pts and put out 120shots of S4 at 24' range if they don't move. Those 120 shots will now generate 100 hits on average (not going to use buffings characters for this) so against T4 3+ saves that is 50 wounds and 17ish damage.
60pts worth of Big shoota's nets you 12 big shootas which put out 36shots which net you 14 hits on average which generate 10ish wounds and against a 3+ save that is 3.3ish damage.
In what worlds does that make sense? And the argument that T5+ makes the Big shoota better is false as well. Those Stormbolters are now significantly more powerful in every which way to a big shoota, and now the argument goes from 4pts for a Big shoota putting out 4 or 5 shots to a 3pt Big shoota that does 5 or 6 shots.
They are overdoing the chapter tactics for sure. 2-3 part bonus not necessary and too much. It is worth noting that the exploding 6's only works on bolter weapons and I doubt that they will exceed what DW can do already.
Xenomancers wrote: They are overdoing the chapter tactics for sure. 2-3 part bonus not necessary and too much. It is worth noting that the exploding 6's only works on bolter weapons and I doubt that they will exceed what DW can do already.
I just posted in the ork tactic thread, this is the gist of it.
Couple of things to think about when facing Marines in the future.
1: They can now inflict some serious damage turn 1 with standard bolt weapons. and
2: They can now do some serious damage on the charge.
So look at turn 1 right now, orkz move and advance because that is what we do. Those SM players, the smart ones at least, will still be pretty close to 15-20' away. Instead of getting shot with 8 bolters shooting once you are now getting hit with 8 bolters shooting twice AND they get exploding 6s. So now its 16 shots for 10.3 hits and then 2.6ish more from exploding 6s so on average 13 hits, that is 6.5 wounds and against our amazing save of 6+ that is 5-6 dead Orkz, previously it was 8 shots, 5.36 hits and 2.68 wounds for roughly 2 dead Orkz. So they have gone up SIGNIFICANTLY in ranged damage on turn 1. Now, lets say we get close enough to charge turn 2. Now we are still eating overwatch with every 6 exploding meaning TWICE as many wounds in overwatch. If you fail and they counter attack instead of getting 11 attacks (2 on sergeant) you are getting hit with 21 attacks, so almost DOUBLE the damage in CC we were suffering before.
Now that scenario isn't meant as an actual real world scenario nor is it meant to be taken as "THIS WILL HAPPEN!" this is merely to point out the massive increase in damage that SM players can now inflict upon us with their bolter drill upgrade and the exploding 6 upgrade and the +1 attacks on the charge upgrade.
Imperial Fists just became hardcore ork killers and you guys need to take them a lot more seriously then you have in the past. And keep in mind, this is before we see all the other new toys and rules they are going to be getting. From the stuff i have seen, they don't look like they will be getting nerfed anywhere like our boyz were.
Every chapter gets the bolter upgrade of not moving = 2 shots at 24 so i expect orkz glorious 8 months of success in 10+ years is over.
I've said this before and I'll say it again as you keep getting it wrong 30 stormbolters do cost 60 points but they don't have 120 shots of S4 at 24 inches. They have 60 no ifs no buts that is the rules.
Whine and mone all you want about Bolter discipline but atleast be honest about the stats.
As other BS3 + armies without Bolter discipline still pay 2 points per storm bolter. A marine with a bolter is 15 points combined.
Or are you still trying to imply that marines are worth 13 points each (They arn't in 8th edition, the bolter rule is to justify some of this overcosting).
1) Even without Bolter Discipline, a Storm Bolter frequently comes out ahead or barely behind a Big Shoota at 24".
2) Marines are overcosted. But that's not a reason to overcost other stuff-that's a reason to fix them.
Which I'm onboard with he just keeps ketting this point wrong every time he does maths he says a 2 point SB does just automatically get bolter discipline which it doesn't.
Ice_can wrote: I've said this before and I'll say it again as you keep getting it wrong 30 stormbolters do cost 60 points but they don't have 120 shots of S4 at 24 inches. They have 60 no ifs no buts that is the rules.
Whine and mone all you want about Bolter discipline but atleast be honest about the stats.
As other BS3 + armies without Bolter discipline still pay 2 points per storm bolter. A marine with a bolter is 15 points combined.
Or are you still trying to imply that marines are worth 13 points each (They arn't in 8th edition, the bolter rule is to justify some of this overcosting).
And you are wrong They have 4 shots if they stand still because of the beta rule. Unless they changed that and I am unaware of it.
Ice_can wrote: I've said this before and I'll say it again as you keep getting it wrong 30 stormbolters do cost 60 points but they don't have 120 shots of S4 at 24 inches. They have 60 no ifs no buts that is the rules.
Whine and mone all you want about Bolter discipline but atleast be honest about the stats. As other BS3 + armies without Bolter discipline still pay 2 points per storm bolter. A marine with a bolter is 15 points combined. Or are you still trying to imply that marines are worth 13 points each (They arn't in 8th edition, the bolter rule is to justify some of this overcosting).
And you are wrong They have 4 shots if they stand still because of the beta rule. Unless they changed that and I am unaware of it.
Ice Can refers to other units that can take Storm Bolters that don't benefit, such as Rhinos or Sisters of Battle.
Marines are the most common wielders (game-wise), but not the only ones.
In other words, at best, you're talking past each other. At worst, you're the wrong one, Mortis.
I kinda just assumed to said 60 shots because he expects all Marines to be constantly moving and also staying outside of 12".
Automatically Appended Next Post: As a side note, I'm of the mind that Orkz, Necrons, and Tau all need to have more "powerful" (or atleast more versatile) Codices in comparison to the Factions who can take allies. Either that, or the current ally system needs work. But that's an entirely different discussion anyway.
Ice_can wrote: I've said this before and I'll say it again as you keep getting it wrong 30 stormbolters do cost 60 points but they don't have 120 shots of S4 at 24 inches. They have 60 no ifs no buts that is the rules.
Whine and mone all you want about Bolter discipline but atleast be honest about the stats.
As other BS3 + armies without Bolter discipline still pay 2 points per storm bolter. A marine with a bolter is 15 points combined.
Or are you still trying to imply that marines are worth 13 points each (They arn't in 8th edition, the bolter rule is to justify some of this overcosting).
And you are wrong They have 4 shots if they stand still because of the beta rule. Unless they changed that and I am unaware of it.
Ice Can refers to other units that can take Storm Bolters that don't benefit, such as Rhinos or Sisters of Battle.
Marines are the most common wielders (game-wise), but not the only ones.
In other words, at best, you're talking past each other.
At worst, you're the wrong one, Mortis.
YMMV But for every Stormbolter NOT on a marine infantry model, dreadnought, or bike, I have seen at the very least 500 that were. So yeah, SOB's are a thing and vehicles are a thing but MOST stormbolters are on the models i listed, furthermore, those models USUALLY stand still or are a terminator/dreadnought/bike and don't care about moving. So yeah, Stormbolters FOR THE MOST PART get 4 shots a turn, not 2.
So thank you for making me spell something out that should have been blatantly obvious.
Furthermore, 2 chapters of Marines NOW get exploding 6s so for them Stormbolters are even better.
But to get to the point, now with all of these changes to SM, it is obvious that the Big shoota is drastically over priced and under performing in almost every situation when compared to a 2pt stormbolter. And, instead of increasing the price of the stormbolter which would make it garbage i am advocating for buffing the big shoota to bring it more inline with its level of firepower and price per point of damage.
I won't wade into this debate, but it really wouldn't hurt if the big shoota was cheaper would it? If it was 2 or 3 points we're not breaking the game regardless of the math.
If we're not seeing Big Shootas then GW needs to drop the price to stimulate their use.
Daedalus81 wrote: I won't wade into this debate, but it really wouldn't hurt if the big shoota was cheaper would it? If it was 2 or 3 points we're not breaking the game regardless of the math.
If we're not seeing Big Shootas then GW needs to drop the price to stimulate their use.
Is also a availability problem.
The main source for big shootas is vehicles, mandatory Choices or add ons.
1 :10 boyz is bad saturation and the reasons why it isn't picked over sluga /choppa option was also explained extensively.
But yeah 2-3 pts would certainly not make or break the game.
Daedalus81 wrote: I won't wade into this debate, but it really wouldn't hurt if the big shoota was cheaper would it? If it was 2 or 3 points we're not breaking the game regardless of the math.
If we're not seeing Big Shootas then GW needs to drop the price to stimulate their use.
Is also a availability problem.
The main source for big shootas is vehicles, mandatory Choices or add ons.
1 :10 boyz is bad saturation and the reasons why it isn't picked over sluga /choppa option was also explained extensively.
But yeah 2-3 pts would certainly not make or break the game.
Availability is a huge problem for me.
In 3rd we could take up to 4 of them in a mob of any size the boys and 3 and the nob the 4th.
After that it was 1 in 10 and none for the nob.
There is no practical reason to take them any more. If they were 2 in 10 I think even at the current price I would consider them again.
Ice_can wrote: I've said this before and I'll say it again as you keep getting it wrong 30 stormbolters do cost 60 points but they don't have 120 shots of S4 at 24 inches. They have 60 no ifs no buts that is the rules.
Whine and mone all you want about Bolter discipline but atleast be honest about the stats.
As other BS3 + armies without Bolter discipline still pay 2 points per storm bolter. A marine with a bolter is 15 points combined.
Or are you still trying to imply that marines are worth 13 points each (They arn't in 8th edition, the bolter rule is to justify some of this overcosting).
And you are wrong They have 4 shots if they stand still because of the beta rule. Unless they changed that and I am unaware of it.
Ice Can refers to other units that can take Storm Bolters that don't benefit, such as Rhinos or Sisters of Battle.
Marines are the most common wielders (game-wise), but not the only ones.
In other words, at best, you're talking past each other.
At worst, you're the wrong one, Mortis.
Are marines the most common wielders? Isn't Storm Bolter not on the Marine special weapon list?
I thought it was basically SoB, GK, [DW], and tank pintles?
Also, I believe there was a point earlier in this thread saying the BS had to be priced higher "Because it had a lot more damage potential because of dakka dakka dakka".
KurtAngle2 wrote: 2 Points, on par with a Heavy Stubber being 2 pts on a BS4+ platform
Every ork has dakka dakka. Literally doubling a weapons potential. They should get 0 discounts for their bs 5 as a result. The weapon is clearly superior to a stubber considering it's +1 str and assault.
Stormbolter potential is now doubled Xeno. Should we double the storm bolter points too?
The Big Shoota has a 1 in 5,832 chance of landing 6 shots (1 in 1728 with Freebooters Procced, and something like a 1 in 3000 chance with Bad Moonz rerolls). A Stormbolter has a 1 in 1296 chance of landing 8 shots (albeit under ideal conditions of either not moving or being within 12", and having the appropriate Chapter Tactic). One of these have significantly better chances of happening, meaning that the "potential" for doubling the number of shots is far greater.
Eonfuzz wrote: Also, I believe there was a point earlier in this thread saying the BS had to be priced higher "Because it had a lot more damage potential because of dakka dakka dakka".
KurtAngle2 wrote: 2 Points, on par with a Heavy Stubber being 2 pts on a BS4+ platform
Every ork has dakka dakka. Literally doubling a weapons potential. They should get 0 discounts for their bs 5 as a result. The weapon is clearly superior to a stubber considering it's +1 str and assault.
Stormbolter potential is now doubled Xeno. Should we double the storm bolter points too?
I was speaking about the fact orks are BS 5. It is mitigated by dakka dakka bringing them closer to bs 4+ but also crucially doubling weapon potential. Their weapons should be costed like they are BS 4 is what I was saying. Dakka Dakka also isn't an army trait - it is a free ability that most orks get - it also effects really powerful weapons where imperial firsts only effects bolt weapons. Also I am in agreement with you that the new space marine traits are over the top. A lot of ork ones are too. Freebootas and evilsuns are quite good traits. It's also pretty fair to say space marines are overcosted and orks aren't. Also don't ignore the fact I think the big shoota should be dropped in points - I just don't think it should be 1 or 2 points.
On average, Dakkax3 brings a BS5+ (33.3% chance to hit) to a BS4.6+ (38.9% chance). Closer to 4+, but still MUCH closer to 5+. Rounded to the closest result on the dice, that's still a 5+. And I did the math on the chances of actually doubling your output. Suffice it to say, you could play every day for a year or more and never see it happen.
The "really powerful weapons" that Dakkax3 affects are already pretty highly priced. A SAG is essentially a 13 pt model with a 70 pt gun, for example. Even a Smasha is a 20 pt model with a 15 pt gun, and it's probably the best example of a cheap, powerful unit in the Ork Codex.
Space Marines are over-costed, but that doesn't mean Orkz aren't as well. Plenty of things in our Codex are overpriced. The Stompa could be 200 pts cheaper and STILL cost too much. And that's just the most extreme example.
I think 1 to 2 points for the Big Shoota is fine. People already mathed it out for you, and gave you the statistics of the units that can take it. Would it be a great gun for Marines? I dunno, maybe? But for Orkz, it's a tax and nothing more. Most players would rather be able to drop those 5 points literally anywhere else.
Xenomancers wrote: I was speaking about the fact orks are BS 5. It is mitigated by dakka dakka bringing them closer to bs 4+ but also crucially doubling weapon potential. Their weapons should be costed like they are BS 4 is what I was saying. Dakka Dakka also isn't an army trait - it is a free ability that most orks get - it also effects really powerful weapons where imperial firsts only effects bolt weapons. Also I am in agreement with you that the new space marine traits are over the top. A lot of ork ones are too. Freebootas and evilsuns are quite good traits. It's also pretty fair to say space marines are overcosted and orks aren't. Also don't ignore the fact I think the big shoota should be dropped in points - I just don't think it should be 1 or 2 points.
DakkaDakkaDakka plus Bad Moons trait (re-roll ones) is still worse than BS4 or BS5 with full re-rolls.
Xenomancers wrote: I was speaking about the fact orks are BS 5. It is mitigated by dakka dakka bringing them closer to bs 4+ but also crucially doubling weapon potential. Their weapons should be costed like they are BS 4 is what I was saying. Dakka Dakka also isn't an army trait - it is a free ability that most orks get - it also effects really powerful weapons where imperial firsts only effects bolt weapons. Also I am in agreement with you that the new space marine traits are over the top. A lot of ork ones are too. Freebootas and evilsuns are quite good traits. It's also pretty fair to say space marines are overcosted and orks aren't. Also don't ignore the fact I think the big shoota should be dropped in points - I just don't think it should be 1 or 2 points.
DakkaDakkaDakka plus Bad Moons trait (re-roll ones) is still worse than BS4 or BS5 with full re-rolls.
I mean the alternative would be to just curb DakkaDakkaDakka then and give orkz bf 4+ back.
It would atleast according to Xeno change nothing right lads?
(Hint, that would be probably the first time an ork army would run gunz over choppa)
Not Online!!! wrote: (Hint, that would be probably the first time an ork army would run gunz over choppa)
We already are running guns over choppa and it's not the first time
Ork are pretty much the same army as marines, except we trade armor for extra punch in close combat.
But yeah, BS4+ on all orks would be insane, Dakka³ is probably the best solution possible for orks - it implement BS4.5 while still being orky random and fun.
Jidmah wrote: Considering how irrelevant another codex is to the health of ours, I don't think so.
Mixed reaction from me. For the most part it looks like most of the SM's chapter traits are similar (no surprise there) to Ork Kulture's but they get a bit more benefit from them.
Crimson fists: +1 WS in CC against any unit with 5 or more models....most units are 10+ so this is iffy but will likely be useful, also puts the CF player in a situation where they want to min/max to get as many small squads as possible. But here is the big part, all of their bolt weapons generate an extra HIT not shot on a 6+. So if they have 6 shots statistically they will generate 5 hits. this is basically just giving them 2+ to hit with bolt weapons without actually saying it. DX3 gives orks an extra SHOT not an extra hit.
Black Templars: They get Ere we go AND a 5+ FNP against Mortal wounds, not bad.
Imperial Fists: Ignores cover and hit rolls of 6 with bolt weapons generate 1 extra hit.
Raven Guard: -1 to hit when in terrain and gets cover when they are 12' or further away from the enemy....or basically almost the entire game. So this is Blood Axes on steroids. Blood Axes are 18' range not 12 to get a cover save and they get to charge OR shoot if they fell back. I'll take ravenguard every single day of the week thank you very much.
Salamanders: DeffSkullz +1. Can reroll 1 hit and 1 wound per phase basically and are immune armor loss from -1AP weapons.
Iron Hands: This is just SnakeBites +2. gives the entire army 6+ FNP AND Overwatch on 5s AND doubles the # of wounds on models with damage charts for the purpose of bracketing. So to reduce that Land Raider to its 2nd bracket now requires 50% more damage.
Smurfs are still smurfy nothing really changed for them, and white scars are just evil sunz that instead of extra movement get to charge even if they advanced. Ohh and they get no penalty to heavy weapons for moving.
But i do agree that this doesn't necessarily harm orkz. In my opinion though it does bring back the debate that Ork boyz should be 6ppm not 7. The only real buff they got in the codex was dakkax3 and the BFD Melta bomb per 10 orkz. Now that 2 SM factions have a similar ability i think going back to 6 makes sense.
Automatically Appended Next Post: But, the big thing in regards to Big shoota's discussion. 2 factions are now able to seriously out dakka a big shoota with a weapon that is 40% the price.
30 stormbolters (Common denominator) cost 60pts and put out 120shots of S4 at 24' range if they don't move. Those 120 shots will now generate 100 hits on average (not going to use buffings characters for this) so against T4 3+ saves that is 50 wounds and 17ish damage.
60pts worth of Big shoota's nets you 12 big shootas which put out 36shots which net you 14 hits on average which generate 10ish wounds and against a 3+ save that is 3.3ish damage.
In what worlds does that make sense? And the argument that T5+ makes the Big shoota better is false as well. Those Stormbolters are now significantly more powerful in every which way to a big shoota, and now the argument goes from 4pts for a Big shoota putting out 4 or 5 shots to a 3pt Big shoota that does 5 or 6 shots.
From my cursory knowledge of orks I'll say boys should not be 6ppm and should stay at 7ppm
My reasoning for this is:
A) the race to bottom is getting to be a problem
B) this still really only helps the greentide build.
Shouldn't players be advocating for point drops on other units for more diverse builds?
Given that a boy with a big shoota slightly outperforms a regular shoota boy, per point, against anything up to and including T5 (which is what you'd expect to be shooting those things at), I think it's about ok tbh.
Jidmah wrote: Considering how irrelevant another codex is to the health of ours, I don't think so.
Mixed reaction from me. For the most part it looks like most of the SM's chapter traits are similar (no surprise there) to Ork Kulture's but they get a bit more benefit from them.
Crimson fists: +1 WS in CC against any unit with 5 or more models....most units are 10+ so this is iffy but will likely be useful, also puts the CF player in a situation where they want to min/max to get as many small squads as possible. But here is the big part, all of their bolt weapons generate an extra HIT not shot on a 6+. So if they have 6 shots statistically they will generate 5 hits. this is basically just giving them 2+ to hit with bolt weapons without actually saying it. DX3 gives orks an extra SHOT not an extra hit.
Black Templars: They get Ere we go AND a 5+ FNP against Mortal wounds, not bad.
Imperial Fists: Ignores cover and hit rolls of 6 with bolt weapons generate 1 extra hit.
Raven Guard: -1 to hit when in terrain and gets cover when they are 12' or further away from the enemy....or basically almost the entire game. So this is Blood Axes on steroids. Blood Axes are 18' range not 12 to get a cover save and they get to charge OR shoot if they fell back. I'll take ravenguard every single day of the week thank you very much.
Salamanders: DeffSkullz +1. Can reroll 1 hit and 1 wound per phase basically and are immune armor loss from -1AP weapons.
Iron Hands: This is just SnakeBites +2. gives the entire army 6+ FNP AND Overwatch on 5s AND doubles the # of wounds on models with damage charts for the purpose of bracketing. So to reduce that Land Raider to its 2nd bracket now requires 50% more damage.
Smurfs are still smurfy nothing really changed for them, and white scars are just evil sunz that instead of extra movement get to charge even if they advanced. Ohh and they get no penalty to heavy weapons for moving.
But i do agree that this doesn't necessarily harm orkz. In my opinion though it does bring back the debate that Ork boyz should be 6ppm not 7. The only real buff they got in the codex was dakkax3 and the BFD Melta bomb per 10 orkz. Now that 2 SM factions have a similar ability i think going back to 6 makes sense.
Automatically Appended Next Post: But, the big thing in regards to Big shoota's discussion. 2 factions are now able to seriously out dakka a big shoota with a weapon that is 40% the price.
30 stormbolters (Common denominator) cost 60pts and put out 120shots of S4 at 24' range if they don't move. Those 120 shots will now generate 100 hits on average (not going to use buffings characters for this) so against T4 3+ saves that is 50 wounds and 17ish damage.
60pts worth of Big shoota's nets you 12 big shootas which put out 36shots which net you 14 hits on average which generate 10ish wounds and against a 3+ save that is 3.3ish damage.
In what worlds does that make sense? And the argument that T5+ makes the Big shoota better is false as well. Those Stormbolters are now significantly more powerful in every which way to a big shoota, and now the argument goes from 4pts for a Big shoota putting out 4 or 5 shots to a 3pt Big shoota that does 5 or 6 shots.
From my cursory knowledge of orks I'll say boys should not be 6ppm and should stay at 7ppm
My reasoning for this is:
A) the race to bottom is getting to be a problem
B) this still really only helps the greentide build.
Shouldn't players be advocating for point drops on other units for more diverse builds?
I compare and ork to say a guardsman and by comparison they should be 6 points, but compared to a tac marine they are undercosted. compared to intersessors they are maybe slightly overcosted but not enough to knock em down to 6 ppm.
honestly I think part of the problem on costing this stuff is still the point per model being exactly set. An ork is probably worth ~6.5 points. woudl eb great if instead of giving the option to add a single ork you got something along the lines of 10 ork boys 65 points. add 5 orks for 33 points and add 10 orks for 65 to the mob. but GW insists on us being able to add individual models so its unlikely to happen.
on the green tide though really it is not taking tournament wins. its not super powerful unless your opponent cam armed for imperial knight mono list. at 6+ saes on a 4T model the orks still have to move tons of slow bodies up the table. concentrate on the front squads and they rarely get very far.
To be fair, a year ago Ork Boyz WERE 6ppm and it wasn't like they were sweeping any tournaments. Course this was before Kultur and Dakkax3, but I still think 6ppm Boyz would be appropriately priced, even now. Boyz in any kind of saturation to be worth taking aren't gonna be able to hide out of LOS, nor benefit from Cover, so what you got are models that cost nearly twice what Guardsmen do, but actually go down easier. All that good CC presence don't do you a lot of good if they die before they get to krumping.
Xenomancers wrote: I was speaking about the fact orks are BS 5. It is mitigated by dakka dakka bringing them closer to bs 4+ but also crucially doubling weapon potential. Their weapons should be costed like they are BS 4 is what I was saying. Dakka Dakka also isn't an army trait - it is a free ability that most orks get - it also effects really powerful weapons where imperial firsts only effects bolt weapons. Also I am in agreement with you that the new space marine traits are over the top. A lot of ork ones are too. Freebootas and evilsuns are quite good traits. It's also pretty fair to say space marines are overcosted and orks aren't. Also don't ignore the fact I think the big shoota should be dropped in points - I just don't think it should be 1 or 2 points.
DakkaDakkaDakka plus Bad Moons trait (re-roll ones) is still worse than BS4 or BS5 with full re-rolls.
I mean the alternative would be to just curb DakkaDakkaDakka then and give orkz bf 4+ back.
It would atleast according to Xeno change nothing right lads?
(Hint, that would be probably the first time an ork army would run gunz over choppa)
To be honest they already have that. It's called freebootas.
Xenomancers wrote: I was speaking about the fact orks are BS 5. It is mitigated by dakka dakka bringing them closer to bs 4+ but also crucially doubling weapon potential. Their weapons should be costed like they are BS 4 is what I was saying. Dakka Dakka also isn't an army trait - it is a free ability that most orks get - it also effects really powerful weapons where imperial firsts only effects bolt weapons. Also I am in agreement with you that the new space marine traits are over the top. A lot of ork ones are too. Freebootas and evilsuns are quite good traits. It's also pretty fair to say space marines are overcosted and orks aren't. Also don't ignore the fact I think the big shoota should be dropped in points - I just don't think it should be 1 or 2 points.
DakkaDakkaDakka plus Bad Moons trait (re-roll ones) is still worse than BS4 or BS5 with full re-rolls.
I mean the alternative would be to just curb DakkaDakkaDakka then and give orkz bf 4+ back.
It would atleast according to Xeno change nothing right lads?
(Hint, that would be probably the first time an ork army would run gunz over choppa)
To be honest they already have that. It's called freebootas.
Xenomancers wrote: I was speaking about the fact orks are BS 5. It is mitigated by dakka dakka bringing them closer to bs 4+ but also crucially doubling weapon potential. Their weapons should be costed like they are BS 4 is what I was saying. Dakka Dakka also isn't an army trait - it is a free ability that most orks get - it also effects really powerful weapons where imperial firsts only effects bolt weapons. Also I am in agreement with you that the new space marine traits are over the top. A lot of ork ones are too. Freebootas and evilsuns are quite good traits. It's also pretty fair to say space marines are overcosted and orks aren't. Also don't ignore the fact I think the big shoota should be dropped in points - I just don't think it should be 1 or 2 points.
DakkaDakkaDakka plus Bad Moons trait (re-roll ones) is still worse than BS4 or BS5 with full re-rolls.
I mean the alternative would be to just curb DakkaDakkaDakka then and give orkz bf 4+ back.
It would atleast according to Xeno change nothing right lads?
(Hint, that would be probably the first time an ork army would run gunz over choppa)
To be honest they already have that. It's called freebootas.
Then why are you complaining?
Not complaining my friend. I agree the BS is overcosted - but so is basically every marine weapon except a storm bolter. LOL.
Xenomancers wrote: I was speaking about the fact orks are BS 5. It is mitigated by dakka dakka bringing them closer to bs 4+ but also crucially doubling weapon potential. Their weapons should be costed like they are BS 4 is what I was saying. Dakka Dakka also isn't an army trait - it is a free ability that most orks get - it also effects really powerful weapons where imperial firsts only effects bolt weapons. Also I am in agreement with you that the new space marine traits are over the top. A lot of ork ones are too. Freebootas and evilsuns are quite good traits. It's also pretty fair to say space marines are overcosted and orks aren't. Also don't ignore the fact I think the big shoota should be dropped in points - I just don't think it should be 1 or 2 points.
DakkaDakkaDakka plus Bad Moons trait (re-roll ones) is still worse than BS4 or BS5 with full re-rolls.
I mean the alternative would be to just curb DakkaDakkaDakka then and give orkz bf 4+ back.
It would atleast according to Xeno change nothing right lads?
(Hint, that would be probably the first time an ork army would run gunz over choppa)
To be honest they already have that. It's called freebootas.
Then why are you complaining?
Not complaining my friend. I agree the BS is overcosted - but so is basically every marine weapon except a storm bolter. LOL.
Xenomancers wrote: I was speaking about the fact orks are BS 5. It is mitigated by dakka dakka bringing them closer to bs 4+ but also crucially doubling weapon potential. Their weapons should be costed like they are BS 4 is what I was saying. Dakka Dakka also isn't an army trait - it is a free ability that most orks get - it also effects really powerful weapons where imperial firsts only effects bolt weapons. Also I am in agreement with you that the new space marine traits are over the top. A lot of ork ones are too. Freebootas and evilsuns are quite good traits. It's also pretty fair to say space marines are overcosted and orks aren't. Also don't ignore the fact I think the big shoota should be dropped in points - I just don't think it should be 1 or 2 points.
DakkaDakkaDakka plus Bad Moons trait (re-roll ones) is still worse than BS4 or BS5 with full re-rolls.
I mean the alternative would be to just curb DakkaDakkaDakka then and give orkz bf 4+ back.
It would atleast according to Xeno change nothing right lads?
(Hint, that would be probably the first time an ork army would run gunz over choppa)
To be honest they already have that. It's called freebootas.
Then why are you complaining?
Not complaining my friend. I agree the BS is overcosted - but so is basically every marine weapon except a storm bolter. LOL.
Doubt that with the new traits.
Those traits only effect bolters for the most part. It's true though. The power creep is real. Marines are basically a 9th eddition codex now. Welcome to 9th eddition.
Just FYI, Freebooterz is only effective against armies that take multiple MSUs of easy to kill units. Good luck proccing that +1 against Knights or any mechanized list
It’s been a long while since I posted on here but I’ve been checking in every now and again. I’ve seen this thread develop from its early stages and couldn’t resist weighing in.
As it stands I wouldn’t bother taking Big Shootas on certain units if they cost nothing, 0 points. This is the case particularly for Boyz squads but the same holds true for a few other units that can take them. The quantities we can take and their actual damage output is so low they aren’t worth rolling for.
In competitive games time is against us as it is due to our general horde nature and the fact that events must have an end time. I would genuinely not bother taking them in Boyz squads if they cost 0 points because I’d rather not lose the time for the few shots to potentially cause 1 or 2 saved wounds. I have greater and more important things to spend my time on.
The same holds true for some of the buggies with their bonkers weapon load outs of 3 or 4 different ranged weapons. I don’t think I’ve ever bothered shooting the Grot blastas outside of a friendly match/for funzies. Big Shootas are like Grot Blastas in that respect - they literally aren’t worth the time investment of rolling the dice. So what’s their approximate points value for an infantry unit? 0. Without changes the Big Shoota will never be taken. I’d like -AP ideally. We have enough no AP volume of attacks/shots weapons.
Piggy-backing on that, I think they'd be much more likely to be taken if every Boy could swap their Shoota for one. An extra 30 shots (over the normal Shoota) is far more likely to make an impact than an extra 3 (for 3 Big Shootas in a Mob).
Eonfuzz wrote: Now that marines are getting free, and better, Dakka Dakka Dakka, as well as an Ork Attack statline - I think this question needs to re-surface again.
Eonfuzz wrote: Now that marines are getting free, and better, Dakka Dakka Dakka, as well as an Ork Attack statline - I think this question needs to re-surface again.
From my cursory knowledge of orks I'll say boys should not be 6ppm and should stay at 7ppm
My reasoning for this is:
A) the race to bottom is getting to be a problem
B) this still really only helps the greentide build.
Shouldn't players be advocating for point drops on other units for more diverse builds?
Yes they should, but at the moment I am talking about Big Shootas and merely brought in the boyz dropping to 6ppm again due to the massive buffs Speese Mehreens are getting.
Also, a point drop for boyz does not just benefit green tide builds, it also benefits basically all ork builds because atm our choices are Expensive boyz which require a lot of buffs to make them useful (Weirdboyz, warbosses etc.) OR cheap grot units which are functionally useless except to stop bullets and sit on an objective. At the moment most competitive lists are filling out battalions with min squads of 10 grots because why spend 210pts on Boyz when you can get more then 2 full battalions worth of grotz for cheaper then it takes to get 1 troop choice of boyz. And boyz have to be taken in 30 blobs because their big attack bonus is situational and stops when they drop below 20 models.
My fun list I took a few days ago took a bunch of mobz of boyz with big shootas, if they were 6ppm like they were in every edition and this edition until we got our codex then I would have saved 90pts. Hell, with all the buffs Marines are getting and how ridiculously good IG are compared to boyz it wouldn't be that much of a stretch to argue 5ppm boyz.
But, getting back on topic. The Space Marines now have 2pt Stormbolters which fire 4 shots when on Terminators/bikes/dreadz and 4 shots on infantry when they stand still or are within half range AND they apparently have AP-1. With that in mind I think a Big shoota should be a 3pt weapon and double its number of shots. Give each big shoota 6 shots and suddenly its no longer a useless option, and on my buggies, specifically my scrapjets, that now gives them 24 S5 shots each, which sounds like a lot but remember 5+ to hit.
Eonfuzz wrote: Now that marines are getting free, and better, Dakka Dakka Dakka, as well as an Ork Attack statline - I think this question needs to re-surface again.
Now it looks like stormbolters are AP -1 too.
On turn 2 at the cost of heavy weapons gaining ap. Not doing big shoota any favors though.
God that was a terrible supplement, strictly designed to get people to buy models by the boatload. Sad they forgot that orkz either A: Already have boatloads OR B: Will spend 1/3rd the money to just Kustom make the new unit 
