I believe the attitudes are starting to shift, albeit slowly. So... let's keep this civil.
I can accept that Primaris might have been a shock to the system of long term hobbyists when they were first unveiled. I certainly wasn't happy myself and I remember it very clearly!
Rewind back in time a few years. 7th edition was starting to wind down and the game was a bloated, broken mess - magnitudes worse than anything today. I had literally just completed a massive re-build of my extensive Ultramarines army. I had fallen in love with the Heresy era Mk4 armours and had painfully replaced most of the infantry in my army with these more exotic looking Astartes. I was also a big collector of Forgeword and had invested in multiple vehicles (I was also playing a lot of 30k back then too).
One day I stopped by my local GW and saw that the store manager was re-basing the store's Astartes army; He was putting every model on a raised base. I asked why he was doing this but he couldn't tell me. This was mere days before the Primaris reveal and I believe many of the store managers had been briefed about the huge release. He was literally trying to raise the Astartes to the same height as the up-coming Primaris. Funny enough he had only just completed the army – same as me with the Ultras...
The big reveal happened and at first I didn't know how to feel. I was both upset and mildly in disbelief and that feeling continued until I saw the models in person. That's when things changed for me and I decided to take the plunge.
As we all remember the rules were not particularly exciting when they first dropped - The Primaris were absolutely not required for an Astartes army to function, and the model line was extremely limited on top of that. I was actually grateful for this! I knew that this wouldn't be the case forever, and it allowed me to collect the army at a leisurely pace as there was no game related need to include the models or rush. Gradually over the course of a year I amassed a big army and continued to add to it as new things were released. I now find myself with over 4000 points of fully painted Primaris and have enjoyed using them very much - especially with the new codex.
I think a lot of people were upset or angry with the release and I do understand the feeling, however after two years I firmly believe it should be subsiding or even gone. I think GW focused heavily on the Ultras for a long time and that also upset people. The Primaris and the Ultramarines were merged as a single enemy of the lore and hobby in people's minds, even though this was not going to be the case in the long term - as we can evidently see now.
I also think that the lack of variety was turning people off as well, but again that was only ever going to be a temporary state for the Primaris. The old range wasn't released in its final state from the start - it began with a few basic kits and it grew over many years and releases. The new range was never going to compete with this in terms of sheer variety out of the gate. It's the same with the lore.
The new codex has been a great success for the hobby and fans of Astartes. The book is high in quality and powerful (perhaps too powerful) and the supplements are allowing for more unique ways to play the various chapters than ever before. Finally they are getting the lore and rules support they deserve and also quality, unique models in most cases. I think this is finally starting to separate the Primaris from the hated Ultras in people's minds lol.
So, more than two years after Primaris were revealed. After many months of complaining from certain parts of the community, after much rage and anger, are we finally starting to see the community shift?
I think so! I'm seeing more topics discussing the Primaris units that aren't being derailed and far less hostility, and the chapter unique models have been very well received by the vast majority - and that is not something that typically happens with a Primaris release! Of course there are still those who have pledged themselves to Nurgle and don't want to see any new releases or change of any kind....
I think if GW had released the interview with Jes Goodwin where he talks about the Primaris before they were released it would have improved their reception.
The 40k timeline has moved on, and Primaris are part of that change so of course not everyone will embrace them. Personally I find the Infiltrators a bit too 'tacti-cool'.
It would also have helped if we knew what was happening with 'old' Marines - we've seen that they're working on event-exclusive Terminators, but there's not been any generic releases (and FW's releases have slowed down).
There's the general background noise of haters for every 40K miniature released ever, though I personally didn't feel Primaris Marines spiked above the average in ways that maybe Centurions, Dreadknights or the Stormraven or some of those releases initially did. Maybe the Suppressors and the Invictor got a few more memes than usual, but even that wasn't anywhere near what some GW releases get.
If anything, I always felt more people were disappointed that Primaris didn't have the rules to make them worth fielding for the many people who liked them.
There's the general background noise of haters for every 40K miniature released ever, though I personally didn't feel Primaris Marines spiked above the average in ways that maybe Centurions, Dreadknights or the Stormraven or some of those releases initially did. Maybe the Suppressors and the Invictor got a few more memes than usual, but even that wasn't anywhere near what some GW releases get.
If anything, I always felt more people were disappointed that Primaris didn't have the rules to make them worth fielding for the many people who liked them.
I think you're spot on. As usual 5% of people make up 95% of complaints!
There are a number of design elements I dislike. Things they changed from established lore, that they didn’t really need to do, just to be different. Things like stubbers on the tanks. They could have just stuck with bolters and their kin. But I find it jarring. And the excessive amount of guns on tanks. It’s like they turned the knob up to 11, just because they could. It’s a bit of a slap in the face of decades of continuity and army theming. Which is part of why they have trouble being accepted.
But for the most part I like the models. I think the farther they stray from the basic marine the worse they get, but still not bad. Intercessors and hellblasters are very sharp looking, but agressors and inceptors are starting to look a little cartoonish and toy like. I’m OK with the tacti-cool nature of the phobos stuff.
I would have like there to be more downsides to their lore. Sure, they might be bigger, stronger, tougher, etc. then old marines, but have XX issues, or are more susceptible to YY. Something to make them not automatically invalidate all that came before them. I like how the new dread tends to burn out it’s pilots. That’s a good example. The new thing might be better, but not without cost. Of course, in the 40k universe, marines are willing to pay those costs to keep fighting the foes of mankind.
The GW business practices are not helping them either. No Model, No Rules needs to go die in a fire. It’s an artificial restriction that has no in-universe reason to be. Why can intercessor sargents take all sorts of CC toys, but reivers can’t (despite desperately needing them) or even hellblasters? If a captain wants a power fist, he needs to take a plasma pistol to go with it. but can’t take a power sword and plasma pistol, despite that being the classic wargear option of the well equipped character in most of the lore. A lot of old stuff got grandfathered in, with tons of options to help people cutomize their army. But primaris took it right on the chin.
--
I’ve got a chunk of primaris on the shelf. I’m not replaceing my old stuff, and only adding the things I like. But getting to the point where that’s 1,500 ish worth of new blood. I don’t love them, but can work past my issues and still enjoy them.
No model, no rules is the result of 3rd party bits manufacturing and the need for them to legally protect their IP.
As for wargear mixing, this is a design change in Primaris and not really the topic of discussion. I have no issues with limiting wargear as it prevents spam of stronger combos - eg, smash captain. But again, not the topic.
The models are generally fine. My issues are more to do with what feels to me like a pretty jarring change in the 40K lore, where the Imperium are displaying signs of progress and innovation - hope, even... That's not the grimdark 'humanity is doomed and just staving off the inevitable' setting I'm used to.
It's largely academic to me though, as I don't actually collect imperial space marines - CSM and Dark Eldar.
Ishagu wrote: No model, no rules is the result of 3rd party bits manufacturing and the need for them to legally protect their IP.
As for wargear mixing, this is a design change in Primaris and not really the topic of discussion. I have no issues with limiting wargear as it prevents spam of stronger combos - eg, smash captain. But again, not the topic.
One of the common reasons for people not accepting primaris. Is how they don’t fit into the universe. Part of that is all the new toys that Caul is handing out that break with established lore, but another is the out-of-universe restrictions imposed by GW’s rules and marketing team.
It is a barrier to full acceptance of the primaris line, which i thought was the topic of this thread.
Gradually more accepted, but as we've seen from the hate on Ultramarines and Grey Knights, the GW fanbase doesn't seem to let go of things.
So, if someone felt Primaris had issues in initial release, even if those issues have been largely removed or mitigated, there will still be resentment. This is even more amplified with those same people not wanting to read more into Primaris lore (because they don't like Primaris), and then perhaps they might not realise the misconceptions they had which caused them to dislike Primaris in the first place are actually addressed and discussed in said lore.
An example of this is people claiming that "Dark Angels would never accept Primaris because they're protective of their secrets!" - a valid point, until you realise that only one of the three types of Primaris Marines are external Marines reinforcing the DA. There's no reason why a newly inducted Marine who has the Primaris enhancements shouldn't be considered for future Inner Circle status, but a newly inducted Marine without those enhancements should - or that a Captain who has crossed the Rubicon Primaris is now unworthy of being Inner Circle.
Hell, we see in one of the more recent BA novels that Astorath (who can sense the onset of the Black Rage) feels a glimmer of it in some Primaris Marines, who are supposed to be immune.
Basically, I feel that there's a lot of grudge-holding because of initial presentation, and it may be a case that those grudges will be held until new generations come in long after Primaris were introduced and all the "new bad lore" that people dislike because it's new and came out of nowhere becomes well established and commonplace: Vigilus and Cadia being equally established and the Indomitus Crusade being just as well known as things like the Great Crusade.
The biggest problem with Primaris (still is) is that there is no crossover compatibility with the classic marine forces.
For example, normal marines can't go in Primaris transports, and Primaris can't even go in LAND RAIDERS.
It;s becoming harder to blend classic and primaris. It seems to be you either knuckle down and try to field a basically 5th edition army, or you go all out Primaris.
IMO they should have made Primaris a completely separate codex and just buffed the classic marines a bit more.
Ishagu wrote: No model, no rules is the result of 3rd party bits manufacturing and the need for them to legally protect their IP.
It's the result of the fallout from the Chapterhouse case and GWs intepretation of it. Most miniature companies dont have a "No model, no rules" policiy and manage just fine.
I can accept that Primaris might have been a shock to the system of long term hobbyists when they were first unveiled. I certainly wasn't happy myself and I remember it very clearly!
Primaris is a logical step of development / evolution.
Tactical Marines are the cornerstone of the dark age,
while the Primaris are the upheaval to a new age, renaissance.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Gradually more accepted, but as we've seen from the hate on Ultramarines and Grey Knights, the GW fanbase doesn't seem to let go of things.
So, if someone felt Primaris had issues in initial release, even if those issues have been largely removed or mitigated, there will still be resentment. This is even more amplified with those same people not wanting to read more into Primaris lore (because they don't like Primaris), and then perhaps they might not realise the misconceptions they had which caused them to dislike Primaris in the first place are actually addressed and discussed in said lore.
An example of this is people claiming that "Dark Angels would never accept Primaris because they're protective of their secrets!" - a valid point, until you realise that only one of the three types of Primaris Marines are external Marines reinforcing the DA. There's no reason why a newly inducted Marine who has the Primaris enhancements shouldn't be considered for future Inner Circle status, but a newly inducted Marine without those enhancements should - or that a Captain who has crossed the Rubicon Primaris is now unworthy of being Inner Circle.
Hell, we see in one of the more recent BA novels that Astorath (who can sense the onset of the Black Rage) feels a glimmer of it in some Primaris Marines, who are supposed to be immune.
Basically, I feel that there's a lot of grudge-holding because of initial presentation, and it may be a case that those grudges will be held until new generations come in long after Primaris were introduced and all the "new bad lore" that people dislike because it's new and came out of nowhere becomes well established and commonplace: Vigilus and Cadia being equally established and the Indomitus Crusade being just as well known as things like the Great Crusade.
This is sadly true. We have literally seen people in this topic say that the setting is less Grim Dark. I am baffled by this opinion. Clearly there is little to no exposure to the new lore.
Read Spears of the Emperor if you want to see a Grim Dark Primaris story!
Nevelon wrote: There are a number of design elements I dislike. Things they changed from established lore, that they didn’t really need to do, just to be different. Things like stubbers on the tanks. They could have just stuck with bolters and their kin. But I find it jarring. And the excessive amount of guns on tanks. It’s like they turned the knob up to 11, just because they could. It’s a bit of a slap in the face of decades of continuity and army theming. Which is part of why they have trouble being accepted.
*snip*
I mostly concur with Nevelon.
Fundamentally for me I am never going to like the concept, in part for stuff like the above (the cartoony models, especially the desire to put all the guns on a tank, the departure from 'elite' weapons to use the cheap and cheerful mortal weapons like Heavy Stubbers, what I see as poor rules choices, etc. etc.), but mostly because it ruined much of my suspension of disbelief in the setting. Oh and model scale. Come on, the table isn't getting any bigger, why are the models for every faction...
We had space marines, both humanities saviours and its greatest threat, being meekly replaced with super space marines. They explicitly have no flaws, are whiter than white etc. I could get behind this being a massive upheaval for the Astartes system. I would have looked forward to chapters engaging in effect in a civil war, perhaps realising the High Lords fears around the number of Ultra successors being the basis for a legion. But instead, in a setting renowned for grimdark internal conflict, prideful marines becoming renegades and traitors, the smallest changes resulting in religious schisms lasting centuries... they all went, well these big bad boys are handy, we will promptly replace ourselves. Barely a word about the morale implications and the like - I mean Astartes only seem balanced up to a point...
And the shoehorning seems to be excessive - we don't need for example primaris infantry in the Ravenwing and Deathwing simply because you haven't realeased any suitably fast attack choices or a bigger suit of terminator armour. Just wait for heavens sake rather than upset a fixed and liked part of the setting.
Automatically Appended Next Post: In terms of acceptance, a lot of gaming friends were planning to replace their marines with the new bigger ones. That hasn't happens for a variety of reasons. New players are just getting Primaris, but the replacement plans for friends at least seem to have been shelved for now.
One thing I find is a lot of people where quick to dismiss primaris without sufficant info, but now that the info is coming out people are, not nesscarily entirely sold but certainly a lot more accepting then they where 2 years ago.
We had space marines, both humanities saviours and its greatest threat, being meekly replaced with super space marines. They explicitly have no flaws, are whiter than white etc. I could get behind this being a massive upheaval for the Astartes system. I would have looked forward to chapters engaging in effect in a civil war, perhaps realising the High Lords fears around the number of Ultra successors being the basis for a legion. But instead, in a setting renowned for grimdark internal conflict, prideful marines becoming renegades and traitors, the smallest changes resulting in religious schisms lasting centuries... they all went, well these big bad boys are handy, we will promptly replace ourselves. Barely a word about the morale implications and the like - I mean Astartes only seem balanced up to a point...
At risk of breaking "no negativity", the bolded parts are exactly what I mean by people not actually having read some Primaris lore.
Both the bolded elements are addressed and actually disproved in some places (we can clearly see that Salamanders Primaris still have mutated skin, Space Wolf Primaris are affected by the Canis Helix, and even Astorath can sense the stirrings of the Black Rage in Primaris Marines who, according to Cawl, shouldn't have it). In fact, the Cawl part is the important bit - we only have Cawl's word that they're actually free of genetic problems. Even Guilliman can't be sure if Cawl isn't fudging numbers somewhere, or even if Cawl hasn't used traitor geneseed despite explicit instruction not to. I mean, for how many years were regular Space Marines considered be the apex of what humanity's warriors could be?
As for the "Ultramarine legion" fears, only one generation of Primaris were tube-created. Every generation since has been recruited like how old Marines have been. Furthermore, if the HLOT had any fears about the threat of an Ultramarine "legion", don't you think they'd have been worried that 3/5ths of ALL Space Marine Chapters (and only increasing) were Ultramarine descendants?
On the "barely a word about morale implications", many sources (Knights of Macragge and the White Dwarf Blood Ravens fluff spring to mind) deal with this. However, we don't have things like old Marines taking up arms against them, which I arguably think is better than just more civil war. More civil war just feels overplayed now, and kind of generic - having them actually fight together, understanding that it's necessary for the Imperium, but still having problems with it, feels far more mature.
Again, not to treat this as a personal thing, but just to highlight my point earlier - many of the problems people have with Primaris are based on outdated fluff, and because of their initial issues with them, don't care about learning more, further reinforcing their disapproval, and repeating the circle.
I have to admit, I haven't read any of the Primaris fiction after Dark Imperium, because I didn't enjoy that book at all, and it made me decide to just stick with the Horus Heresy... But the background for the Primaris was really secondary. For me, the turnoff for Primaris was the thinly disguised scale creep. Calling them a new type of marine doesn't really change the fact that the models are just bigger marines.
GW's mistake was them mess with the lore and trying to explain true scale marines with Cawl's genius and such. True scale miniatures with new powerful rules would have been more than enough.
Mess with the setting too much, and you get people burning their armies on camera AoS-style.
I seem to remember it was more the fluff than the models that raised the real ire, along with 'is x marine subfaction getting left behind', and the perception that it heralded more years of non-stop marine releases after years of heresy and chaos marine releases - between that and forgeworld the game was leaning very heavily to marinebowl 40k.
As usual with the passing of time the players who felt they were being left behind have either found they weren't, or have wandered off to wait it out.
I have been playing in a group with a fair number of new players that don't have the baggage of pre-8th edition for the most part. When it comes to marines, most of them start with Primaris because they think the models look better and they are cheaper via boxed sets. That said, some of them are starting to add non-Primaris marines because there are things Primaris can't do/don't do the same that non-Primaris can. This is mostly vet squads with power weapons or Devastators with las cannons. The point is, they never had an issue with Primaris marines seeing them as an update to model line. It was only after playing a bit did they realize that non-Primaris still have a place at least currently.
I agree that it is mostly people you won't ever meet on the internet griping the loudest. They sometimes have a gris-gris of why they don't like Primaris and probably never will at this point. I know I didn't like the idea of Primaris and never really looked at their models or lore until Shadowspear. It was only when I was painting up the models did I really appreciate the quality of them. For me, the Infiltrators and Phobos armor in general was got me to start a full army of Primaris. I think GW did an excellent job of blending Sci-Fi/SpecOps/Fantasy Ranger/Rogue into a single model. Everything that is 40k to me.
I know several people only see the tacticool elements of Phobos armor. Which I find kinda strange since many of its elements are the same GW use in their fantasy line. It can't help to notice how many fantasy models have bucket boots. I also figure if someone wants to baroque up their models, they probably have a bunch bits they could use or even green stuff something. I like the empty canvas approach rather than having to scrap off all the grimdark/Gothic stuff I might not want.
Some elements of the primaris I like quite a bit - for example, the longer, more rifle-ish Boltguns with rails. They look great.
Generally I like the armor better. I don't really like how reivers have skull helmets, because previously for loyalists that was only Chaplains and I don't like how they watered it down.
I resentfully enjoy the new Dreadnought because even though I love the boxy washing machines.... I know in my heart the new ones are really good.
Some things are just goofy, though. They floating guys with the two guns? Lame idea. The vehicle they have that looks like a floating landraider that someone hit Ctrl-V on guns with too much? Also lame.
On the other hand, some things are so goofy they looped back into cool. I bought my first Primaris model the other day - the Invictor Dread. It was that stupid heavy bolter pistol that did it; I too must have the toughest cowpoke in the grimdark future, pardner. Yes, he will have a star and cowboy hat.
The community is still split after the primaris release. The dislike come from veterans of the hobby, where about half the players seem to hate them. All new players swallow the primaris stuff whole or never get into the hobby anyways.
I think the tone of the discussion around primaris is very agressive or defensive and pulls the players apart instead of bringing them together every time.
I'm not gonna go into yet again why I despise primaris, but I know alot of friends in the hobby that feel the same. The numbers some posters pull like 95% love primaris it is pure BS.
Gitdakka wrote: The numbers some posters pull like 95% love primaris it is pure BS.
Oh, absolutely, and the inverse applies. While I'm pretty sure that most people (and by most, I simply mean 50+%) are either indifferent or actively positive of Primaris, it's hard not to argue that the multitude of anti-Primaris threads are not necessarily indicative of how many people actually dislike them. It's why I really do hope that the "no negativity" in this thread is maintained and respected.
So, just registered to the forums, but this is definately a topic I want to give me 2 cents in.
Basially, I'm very much in the camp that doesn't much care for the Primaris, and mostly due to the fluff and how forced the whole thing feels, just in order to sell the idea of bigger figures in-universe (or that's what it looks like to me). Still, I mostly side step the whole issue, in that I pretend the whole 8th edition, fluff nor rules, exist, as I don't have to worry about gaming and can just use the older Codex's as guidelines for my collection. Don't know if that qualifies as "negtivety" but it's what I do.
As for the miniatures, they're Tru-Scale Marines. End of. I quite like the way the miniatures look and I will be updating my old custom Chapter using them once I get the money and time to do so, but that's all there is to it as far as I'm concerned. So in summary: fluff sucks, rules don't matter and minis are fine.
Awful background combined with rules driven models, model kit/sales driven rules and general incompatibility with Space Marines mean I won't be picking any up until they resolve at least the last 2.
I like some, hate others. The Intercessors and Hellbalsters are pretty good. The new Phobos stuff is OK, but getting a little too tacti-cool for my liking. The Inceptors, Aggressors and Reivers are pretty terrible looking IMO, as are all the vehicles - far too many guns on all of the vehicles and just some really bad ideas for the other models, poorly executed. I dislike the lack of flexibility and how the model line reinforces no model, no rules. And no, it's not because of the evils of Chapterhouse, it's GW's continued misinterpretation of the consequences of the ruling that are the problem there.
The lore is, AFAIC, rubbish. I understand more lore has been written recently which may be better, but the problem GW have is similar to the problems they had when they released AoS. If your initial lore doesn't grab me and interest me, I'm not going to go seeking out the new stuff without very good reason. The whole "they're the best, better than anyone else and perfect in every way" feel of the initial reveal was jarring and poorly handled, IMO. They missed a huge opportunity to move the background forward with a schism within the Imperium itself as these new types of Marines and Guilliman himself appear to upset the status quo. Reading the Codices, there's no evidence of this new and improved background either. Saying it's there, but in a bunch of novels most people won't even have heard of, isn't really a great response to those complaining about their views on the background. GW needs to work harder to push this new and improved background in publications their customers actually read.
They're lovely models. The Inceptors in particular remind me of the Dorvak models I built as a young child. It would be cool if they could all have those heat-shield hoods over their helmets.
However, I don't particularly want to own them, and my urge to play has gradually evaporated since they came out. Haven't figured out if it's related though, so YMMV.
I think as a Dark Angels player I have handled it perfectly.
I was opposed to them in the beginning, I didn't like the aesthetic, didn't want to put my tac marines on the shelf, no place for them in my Ravenwing and Deathwing.....very stubborn. I've accepted a few now....3 aggressors, some hellblasters, even promoted an Lt. But still, their introduction has been very, very slow and deliberate. I haven't met this Lazarus fellow yet so we'll see.
On the other hand, I was sitting on a box of Shadowspear models that just didn't fit with my DAs......and then the Ravenguard came out, and a warsuit. So besides a single squad of vanguard veterans, and a few scouts here and there, the army is full primaris.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: At risk of breaking "no negativity", the bolded parts are exactly what I mean by people not actually having read some Primaris lore.
Both the bolded elements are addressed and actually disproved in some places (we can clearly see that Salamanders Primaris still have mutated skin, Space Wolf Primaris are affected by the Canis Helix, and even Astorath can sense the stirrings of the Black Rage in Primaris Marines who, according to Cawl, shouldn't have it). In fact, the Cawl part is the important bit - we only have Cawl's word that they're actually free of genetic problems. Even Guilliman can't be sure if Cawl isn't fudging numbers somewhere, or even if Cawl hasn't used traitor geneseed despite explicit instruction not to. I mean, for how many years were regular Space Marines considered be the apex of what humanity's warriors could be?
As for the "Ultramarine legion" fears, only one generation of Primaris were tube-created. Every generation since has been recruited like how old Marines have been. Furthermore, if the HLOT had any fears about the threat of an Ultramarine "legion", don't you think they'd have been worried that 3/5ths of ALL Space Marine Chapters (and only increasing) were Ultramarine descendants?
Again, not to treat this as a personal thing, but just to highlight my point earlier - many of the problems people have with Primaris are based on outdated fluff, and because of their initial issues with them, don't care about learning more, further reinforcing their disapproval, and repeating the circle.
Not trying to argue, and I get your point. The initial fluff didn't impress and that stopped me reading more over time into them. But somewhat disastrously when I have again encountered the fluff (in white dwarf mainly), it just seems to reinforce those initial prejudices (the Dark Angel example being the worse to date).
You see a nod to that sort of morale upset, but even what you have listed above isn't much. The history of the Imperium is littered with destructive conflicts over less. You might see civil war as an overplayed card, but it is what militarised political bodies do when they have schism. To my mind for a sprawling insane setting it is just too neat. And I can't see any reason beyond promoting a new toy line. Fairy snuff, its a toy company, but its method of selling those toys uses multiple hooks. For me the hooks for this failed. The subsequent hooks on the community pages and white dwarf have also failed.
Now I still thought I should probably get some Primaris to play the game I play with friends (and though I would use conquest mag to do so), but a bunch of us seem to have petered out together. Not sure why. New marine armies that crop up at the club are Primaris based, but the expected conversion of old armies doesn't seem to have happened. There has been an uptick in other armies ('Cult, Chaos, 'Guard etc.), it is probably a good thing overall to have more diversity, but its still surprising.
As an aside the legion thing was a reference to some underdeveloped fluff about the High Lords starting to rue the dependence on Ultra geneseed. Is an example of where the fluff could have gone. Hell the B movie solder dealt with super solders being replaced by better soldiers in a more interesting way!
On the "barely a word about morale implications", many sources (Knights of Macragge and the White Dwarf Blood Ravens fluff spring to mind) deal with this. However, we don't have things like old Marines taking up arms against them, which I arguably think is better than just more civil war. More civil war just feels overplayed now, and kind of generic - having them actually fight together, understanding that it's necessary for the Imperium, but still having problems with it, feels far more mature.
Well the good old Alpha's have flown the flag by slaughtering a few in Black Library fiction. Does that count?
=Angel= wrote: Awful background combined with rules driven models, model kit/sales driven rules and general incompatibility with Space Marines mean I won't be picking any up until they resolve at least the last 2.
You're wrong in your assessments, and you're being negative for the sake of it.
The lore is subjective, you probably know little of it. The model sales are not rules driven, they've been sub par for over two years.
Move on
It doesn't matter how good they are, just how Timmy they are.
Dislike the fluff and the marketing strategy that GW seems to be aiming towards with Primaris being a replacement for old marines (same can be seen with the culling of older fantasy/AoS model lines).
Not sure what the context of "no negativity" is suppose to mean.
=Angel= wrote: Awful background combined with rules driven models, model kit/sales driven rules and general incompatibility with Space Marines mean I won't be picking any up until they resolve at least the last 2.
You're wrong in your assessments, and you're being negative for the sake of it.
The lore is subjective, you probably know little of it. The model sales are not rules driven, they've been sub par for over two years.
Move on
"You don't have any right to dislike them, any dislike is completely unfounded and being 'negative for the sake of it'."
I wouldn't be involved in any arguments about them if it weren't for posts like this. There are valid reasons to not like them. I won't go into all the reasons here as that's not the point of the thread, but I'll point out on the most superficial level they just dont look right next to my extensive current collection.
Vankraken wrote: Dislike the fluff and the marketing strategy that GW seems to be aiming towards with Primaris being a replacement for old marines (same can be seen with the culling of older fantasy/AoS model lines).
Not sure what the context of "no negativity" is suppose to mean.
I think the "no negativity" is supposed to mean "hey guys, let's not just fill this thread with yet more talking about why we hate Primaris" like nearly every other Primaris thread turns into. I imagine it's cool to say "yeah, I'm not keen XYZ", but no need to just come in and be antagonistic (like I've seen one user be - thankfully the post was deleted!) or make it all about how Primaris suck. We've already got plenty of that.
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Nurglitch wrote: The Inceptors in particular remind me of the Dorvak models I built as a young child. It would be cool if they could all have those heat-shield hoods over their helmets.
Agreed! I had to do a bit of cutting and slight modifications to allow the open heat-shield to close, but it *is* possible, if inconvenient.
I am not sure why people who don't have access to primaris should be happy about them in the first place. And when I say people, I mean everyone. starting with marines that can't have them like chaos etc, through imperial armies like IG and ending with xeno armies.
My main issue with the primaris is their prices. $35 for a character, chaplain or librarian? $I-forget-but-it's-a-lot for 10 very basic dudes with few bling options? I'll wait for a local bring-n-buy and scoop them up for next to nothing or not at all.
However, the easy build primaris kits, when discounted, make for great blank canvases for all the extra bling bits I have. I bought two boxes of Reivers to get 6 chaplain heads for my Normal Marines and six potential heroes, librarians or whatever can be built on their bodies.
As for the fluff, I ride to read Dark imperium. I really did. But, see, the new marines are bad enough, but half the book is full of Nurgle and zombies, the two most overdone, boring Chaos threats ever to loll a reader into a boredom coma. And the sequel looks to be more of the same. I won't slog through Nurgle zzzzzombies just to find out if primaris have any interesting fluff hooks. Maybe in a few years there will be some Primaris fiction worth reading and I'll get into them more, but for now they are the lame, underdeveloped tacticool new hires that your friends are expected to train as their replacements.
Karol wrote: I am not sure why people who don't have access to primaris should be happy about them in the first place. And when I say people, I mean everyone. starting with marines that can't have them like chaos etc, through imperial armies like IG and ending with xeno armies.
I don't think those people are on about actively liking them, but more just accepting them as another added army. Aka, Primaris being accepted like how Custodes or Genestealer Cults were - as another potential army for people to collect, even if they're not your own faction.
The models themselves are awesome, and if they'd just been a replacement range to bring the old marines into true scale, it would have been much better.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: My main issue with the primaris is their prices. $35 for a character, chaplain or librarian? $I-forget-but-it's-a-lot for 10 very basic dudes with few bling options? I'll wait for a local bring-n-buy and scoop them up for next to nothing or not at all.
In all fairness, nearly all character models are too expensive for what they are, and even the new Chaos Marines are just as pricey. Yes, the CSM are nice sculpts, but so are the Primaris, IMO.
Not saying that it's excusable, but that it's not just a Primaris issue.
As for the fluff, I ride to read Dark imperium. I really did. But, see, the new marines are bad enough, but half the book is full of Nurgle and zombies, the two most overdone, boring Chaos threats ever to loll a reader into a boredom coma. And the sequel looks to be more of the same. I won't slog through Nurgle zzzzzombies just to find out if primaris have any interesting fluff hooks. Maybe in a few years there will be some Primaris fiction worth reading and I'll get into them more, but for now they are the lame, underdeveloped tacticool new hires that your friends are expected to train as their replacements.
Honestly, Primaris only fiction isn't honestly any more different than normal Marine stuff! The only exclusive "Primaris" stuff comes from material where they interact with Firstborn Astartes - I am quite keen on Knights of Macragge for this reason. The first half does drag towards the end, but the Primaris/Firstborn dynamic is played really well. There's no need to read Dark Imperium, and there's not really any scenes from the enemy perspective to slow it down.
Dark Imperium is at it's best when it's not dealing with the Nurgle stuff or the actual battles - getting insight into the Greyshields, Guilliman and Cawl Inferior (and Mortarion, to a degree) is the main selling point for me.
Karol wrote: I am not sure why people who don't have access to primaris should be happy about them in the first place. And when I say people, I mean everyone. starting with marines that can't have them like chaos etc, through imperial armies like IG and ending with xeno armies.
I don't think those people are on about actively liking them, but more just accepting them as another added army. Aka, Primaris being accepted like how Custodes or Genestealer Cults were - as another potential army for people to collect, even if they're not your own faction.
Okey, but why would anyone be happy that not their army gets an update. And update for another army means two things. First that your army and your stuff lost a slot to get new rules and models, and second that there is a chance that your opposing army got better, and as your army didn't, this means yours got worse. Or is it like strickt rules stuff? But that is covered already by GW, no matter how good or bad a rule is, one can't change it, because only GW can change the rules of units or create new ones.
It is rather confusing to me. I mean I do get that GW is trying to make new stuff look cool, to sell it, and make old stuff bad so people do not want it anymore and new people don't pick it up, specially from second hand market or 3ed party companies. But being angry about that is like being angry that a company Co makes a lot of money.
Karol wrote: I am not sure why people who don't have access to primaris should be happy about them in the first place. And when I say people, I mean everyone. starting with marines that can't have them like chaos etc, through imperial armies like IG and ending with xeno armies.
I don't think those people are on about actively liking them, but more just accepting them as another added army. Aka, Primaris being accepted like how Custodes or Genestealer Cults were - as another potential army for people to collect, even if they're not your own faction.
Okey, but why would anyone be happy that not their army gets an update.
Because you can appreciate nice models? Or be happy for other people? Am I supposed to hate Grey Knight releases because I don't collect them? Should I be making thread after thread about something simply because I don't play that faction?*
It's not about being "happy". It's about accepting other people getting things, and appreciating releases in general. I don't play AoS at the moment, but I can certainly appreciate some of the new releases, because they look nice or have cool sounding lore.
*I don't mean to sound like Space Marines are this underprivileged faction that gets nothing - but it was like that before Primaris came along, and even when perfectly good Marine kits were getting updates and remastering instead of older Eldar and Ork kits, there was nowhere near the same backlash. Basically, Primaris didn't do anything that wasn't already new, in that regard.
=Angel= wrote: Awful background combined with rules driven models, model kit/sales driven rules and general incompatibility with Space Marines mean I won't be picking any up until they resolve at least the last 2.
You're wrong in your assessments, and you're being negative for the sake of it.
The lore is subjective, you probably know little of it. The model sales are not rules driven, they've been sub par for over two years.
Move on
You have the perfect avatar for the level of unwarranted certainty/smugness of your posts. Congratulations I guess.
I am being accurate in my assessments, not negative. The rules are always model driven to an extent, but 'what's in the box IS the options' is the monkeys paw answer to 'I want all the options to be in the box'.
The 'Primaris can't get in a Landraider' is an entirely sales driven rule. It's not a model driven rule and its not a background driven rule. Its only function is to separate Primaris from your existing colection and drive sales of Primaris vehicles. When Grey Knights were conceptualised as a 'foot' army and not given rhinos as an option (even though Inq stormtroopers in the same codex could take them) they still didn't have a rule stopping them from getting into transport vehicles.
You can move on and take your attitude with you. I'm quite optimistic about the future of my army and hobby. I expect them to resolve the background issues with retcons, implement sensible rules/options as the models get updated and at some point Primaris will just be marines in MkX armour.
All we'll be left with from all the controversy is a few divisive sculpts.
Okey, but why would anyone be happy that not their army gets an update.
Because you can appreciate nice models? Or be happy for other people? Am I supposed to hate Grey Knight releases because I don't collect them? Should I be making thread after thread about something simply because I don't play that faction?*
It's not about being "happy". It's about accepting other people getting things, and appreciating releases in general. I don't play AoS at the moment, but I can certainly appreciate some of the new releases, because they look nice or have cool sounding lore.
*I don't mean to sound like Space Marines are this underprivileged faction that gets nothing - but it was like that before Primaris came along, and even when perfectly good Marine kits were getting updates and remastering instead of older Eldar and Ork kits, there was nowhere near the same backlash. Basically, Primaris didn't do anything that wasn't already new, in that regard.
I mean, I think there is something between being happy and unhappy about stuff. People in general aren't happy, and even less for people that aren't their family. So probably missing something here. And GK didn't get any releases, so I don't really understand what people would be suppose to be happy or unhappy about. If anything they got even fewer models then any faction, bar necrons I think.
I am also confused about the accepting thing. How can one not accept GW to make official models for any game or faction. It wouldn't make sense at all. If something has legal rules it can be played, the question of accepting or not accepting their existance seems moot to me.
I am being accurate in my assessments, not negative. The rules are always model driven to an extent, but 'what's in the box IS the options' is the monkeys paw answer to 'I want all the options to be in the box'.
But don't primaris models come without the options for the models though? I know people here were buying a ton resin kromlech thunder hammers and powerfists, for some of their primaris models, my store had to order them like four or five times, because more or less every marine players bought them. And they still out of them right now, so any new player would have bad unit set ups.
If anything I've come full circle back to having to remind myself that mini-marine units are an option, although it bothers me that a lot of the more abusable things are index options.
(I know, I know, Orks say "Hi".)
Using Chaplain Dreads and a Techmarine with a Relic Conversion Beam to create AT firebases that can't be targetted feels remarkably close to cheating. Right up to the point that you take on an IG list with three Russes with the Command Tank upgrade, 'cause feth that guy.
The models themselves are awesome, and if they'd just been a replacement range to bring the old marines into true scale, it would have been much better.
The reason I don't like, and still do not care for primaris is because of the obvious truth that my several thousand points of marines are going to be extinct as a fieldable entity in a few years.
All the new releases are primaris
All the best rules are primaris
All the best toys and wargear are primaris
Anything old (which used to be considered better) is inferior to primaris.
Someone basically just said. "So, you like marines. Well. Here is *Marines +2* don't you like it?"
I honestly don't mind the aesthetic of the primaris line. Its neat, they're cool models!
If they had some cross compatibility with legacy marines, I might not mind as much, but the fact that the two groups basically cannot interact on table top is incredibly frustrating.
Not sure what the context of "no negativity" is suppose to mean.
The topic of the thread suggests that Primaris are being accepted by all. OP thinks that negativity (any criticism) is dying down and wants to know if YOU think that's the case, unless you disagree, in which case, don't bring your negativity into his thread.
Towards the end of a longwinded introduction where he feigns empathy with people who didn't like the Primaris (but surely have come around) and fails to address the real issues people have with them, OP equates any dislike of the Primaris marines with Nurgleite stagnation and a desire for NO new releases.
This is both a laughable absolutist strawman and an analogy drawing directly from the initial releases, where brave Primaris fought the evil Deathguard. Think about that for a few moments and you'll understand the mindset of the OP.
=Angel= wrote: Awful background combined with rules driven models, model kit/sales driven rules and general incompatibility with Space Marines mean I won't be picking any up until they resolve at least the last 2.
You're wrong in your assessments, and you're being negative for the sake of it.
The lore is subjective, you probably know little of it. The model sales are not rules driven, they've been sub par for over two years.
Move on
Oooh here we go again, like in the last thread about primaris.....like I said in the last one, nobody gonna say something bad against your honeybooboo while you're watching, right?
Look, you clearly want to convince people to like primaris or at least give them a second look, which is fine. You won't be able to do that though if you are being that condescending in every one of your posts about them. Instead of telling people to not voice complaint because it's not valid and just telling them they are wrong just because, explain to them why. That way you can have a healthy discussion between two disagreeing parties. Because like I've asked you on multiple occasions in different threads now, who the hell do you think you are, telling people their complaints are not valid.
=Angel= wrote: The 'Primaris can't get in a Landraider' is an entirely sales driven rule. It's not a model driven rule and its not a background driven rule.
Gods I forgot this...
I think things like this do make vets reluctant to join the gang. All games need an element of suspension of disbelief and anything which negatively affects that could impact on model sales. Certainly when primaris are brought up people will quote such rules. I don't know if it affects sales or buying practices, but it certainly makes me less keen. I should ask the others why the grand plans of Primaris upgrades came to nought.
As an aside the model rules/box contents thing is very irritating. My favourite marine force is the Deathwatch. The fact that i can't equip Primaris like tiny marines despite their armouries being stocked with all that exotic gear is certainly annoying. Worse is in an army that mixes terminators, bikes, jump pack marines and tiny marines in squads I have to have separate Primaris squads.
Frankly, the OP isn't wrong. People have gone out of their way repeatedly to crap all over anyone who expressed liking Primaris stuff. People do nothing but whine about Primaris stuff even releasing.
Christ, I've been catching flak for simply saying that the release has been handled fairly poorly by being spread out instead of just dropped in a much quicker pattern.
I am being accurate in my assessments, not negative. The rules are always model driven to an extent, but 'what's in the box IS the options' is the monkeys paw answer to 'I want all the options to be in the box'.
But don't primaris models come without the options for the models though? I know people here were buying a ton resin kromlech thunder hammers and powerfists, for some of their primaris models, my store had to order them like four or five times, because more or less every marine players bought them. And they still out of them right now, so any new player would have bad unit set ups.
Most units tend to have all the options in the box, your friends may have been converting Primaris into truescale Space Marines (what they should have been from the get-go)
I'd imagine Primaris in a Deathwatch army may get more toys.
Karol wrote:I mean, I think there is something between being happy and unhappy about stuff. People in general aren't happy, and even less for people that aren't their family. So probably missing something here.
Perhaps. I'm generally very accepting (not *happy*, that's a different emotion) of people, even people I'm completely unfamiliar with, and if someone I don't have any connection to has something nice happen, I'm fully accepting of that, and won't be thinking "oh, I wish I had that!" So, comparing that to this - if an army I didn't play got some nice new updates and units (here's to hoping for some more Eldar love and some great Sisters of Battle kits!), I don't care that it's not for my faction, because it's for someone else.
And GK didn't get any releases, so I don't really understand what people would be suppose to be happy or unhappy about. If anything they got even fewer models then any faction, bar necrons I think.
I remember when Grey Knights first got their latest wave of models. I didn't play them at the time (and I still only have a single squad purely for narrative purposes), but I was still happy for Grey Knight players to have the new stuff, even if I didn't play them.
Maybe this is personal thing, but I don't think it's particularly pleasant to dismiss or dislike something purely because it's not for you. Indifference, sure, but to actively dislike it? I dunno, it just sounds unhealthy for me.
I am also confused about the accepting thing. How can one not accept GW to make official models for any game or faction. It wouldn't make sense at all. If something has legal rules it can be played, the question of accepting or not accepting their existance seems moot to me.
Because with Primaris especially, some people don't think they should have had those rules in the first place, and don't accept that they should have had official models or been introduced at all. It's the very idea of Primaris that some folk don't accept - which is fine, I might add. Just in some degree of moderation?
Kanluwen wrote: Frankly, the OP isn't wrong. People have gone out of their way repeatedly to crap all over anyone who expressed liking Primaris stuff. People do nothing but whine about Primaris stuff even releasing.
Christ, I've been catching flak for simply saying that the release has been handled fairly poorly by being spread out instead of just dropped in a much quicker pattern.
You're right of course- there is unwarranted negativity. There's plenty to like about the new releases. I think there would have been less flak had the release been better handled as you say, but my problems are mainly narrative- and how the background and rules interrupt that.
Christ, I've been catching flak for simply saying that the release has been handled fairly poorly by being spread out instead of just dropped in a much quicker pattern.
Out of all the things, that position get's attacked?
I mean it isn't like the release cut off in essence the extremetis of the codex and only piecemeal feeds them back?
BobtheInquisitor wrote: My main issue with the primaris is their prices. $35 for a character, chaplain or librarian? $I-forget-but-it's-a-lot for 10 very basic dudes with few bling options? I'll wait for a local bring-n-buy and scoop them up for next to nothing or not at all.
In all fairness, nearly all character models are too expensive for what they are, and even the new Chaos Marines are just as pricey. Yes, the CSM are nice sculpts, but so are the Primaris, IMO.
Not saying that it's excusable, but that it's not just a Primaris issue.
well, yeah. I had planned on a Thousands Son army, but the prices killed that. Not sure I'll end up with many Sisters of Battle, either. It's just that The primaris don't have resin legacy models or a huge swath of OOP starter plastics available for less than ten bucks each (tell me if they do!), so there's no way to ease into the army. Also, the new sets have very few options compared to old favorites like the SM commander, DA veterans, and, of course, the Ravenwing Accessory Sprue. The Primaris upgrade sprues themselves seem sparse and stingy.
In conclusion, I agree that it's a GW problem more than a Primaris problem, but Primaris get the worst of it.
As for the fluff, I ride to read Dark imperium. I really did. But, see, the new marines are bad enough, but half the book is full of Nurgle and zombies, the two most overdone, boring Chaos threats ever to loll a reader into a boredom coma. And the sequel looks to be more of the same. I won't slog through Nurgle zzzzzombies just to find out if primaris have any interesting fluff hooks. Maybe in a few years there will be some Primaris fiction worth reading and I'll get into them more, but for now they are the lame, underdeveloped tacticool new hires that your friends are expected to train as their replacements.
Honestly, Primaris only fiction isn't honestly any more different than normal Marine stuff! The only exclusive "Primaris" stuff comes from material where they interact with Firstborn Astartes - I am quite keen on Knights of Macragge for this reason. The first half does drag towards the end, but the Primaris/Firstborn dynamic is played really well. There's no need to read Dark Imperium, and there's not really any scenes from the enemy perspective to slow it down.
Dark Imperium is at it's best when it's not dealing with the Nurgle stuff or the actual battles - getting insight into the Greyshields, Guilliman and Cawl Inferior (and Mortarion, to a degree) is the main selling point for me.
Yeah, I liked the non-combat stuff, but not enough to slog through the Nurgle. I'm up for a good primaris story, whether they are the main focus or not, so long as the other factions in the story aren't tedious. What is Knights of Macragge about?
=Angel= wrote: Awful background combined with rules driven models, model kit/sales driven rules and general incompatibility with Space Marines mean I won't be picking any up until they resolve at least the last 2.
You're wrong in your assessments, and you're being negative for the sake of it.
The lore is subjective, you probably know little of it. The model sales are not rules driven, they've been sub par for over two years.
Move on
It doesn't matter how good they are, just how Timmy they are.
Primaris are the ultimate Timmy infantry.
Going by the paradigm that's from.. That doesn't make any sense since Primaris tend to be competitive at this point. You could make a case that they are part of the spike and johnny paradigm as well. Timmy players tend to play big things and cool things, maybe weird variance things none of which Primaris are. This is the sort of category you'd see like the Three Land Raider player.
Because with Primaris especially, some people don't think they should have had those rules in the first place, and don't accept that they should have had official models or been introduced at all. It's the very idea of Primaris that some folk don't accept - which is fine, I might add. Just in some degree of moderation?
I think it is a language and me thing, because I really can't get my head around the idea of someone not accepting reality. I mean GW makes the rules, and no else can make rules, so being unaccapting of the rules, is not wanting to play the game? I am droping out of the talk, too confused to understand what the problem suppose to be.
I remember when Grey Knights first got their latest wave of models. I didn't play them at the time (and I still only have a single squad purely for narrative purposes), but I was still happy for Grey Knight players to have the new stuff, even if I didn't play them.
I don't think that is an universal thing though. People here are happier when something bad happens to other people, then something good happens to them. It is practicaly a national trait.
So, comparing that to this - if an army I didn't play got some nice new updates and units (here's to hoping for some more Eldar love and some great Sisters of Battle kits!), I don't care that it's not for my faction, because it's for someone else.
\
I don't think I know any people that think that way. The main assumption here is that what ever happens to you, it is better to think it is going to be bad. Because if it is bad, your no suprised and used to it. And if happens to be good, you can be suprised till something bad happens to you shortly after. Don't think most people have time to be happy or intested in what other people do. They very interested in seeing people fall though. Elections here are won on that, according to my moms husband.
Not sure what the context of "no negativity" is suppose to mean.
The topic of the thread suggests that Primaris are being accepted by all. OP thinks that negativity (any criticism) is dying down and wants to know if YOU think that's the case, unless you disagree, in which case, don't bring your negativity into his thread.
I've never once said Primaris are accepted by all.
If your input is something along the lines of: "The lore is crap, the model are crap" then don't post. If you're bitter and toxic don't post here - That is what I'm saying
I think that people are oversaturated with the "Bigger Better Space Marine" models. That's probably what's the cause of so much negativity really. Games Workshop really, really need to diversify their release schedules a lot more, otherwise, the issue likely won't go away.
Darsath wrote: I think that people are oversaturated with the "Bigger Better Space Marine" models. That's probably what's the cause of so much negativity really. Games Workshop really, really need to diversify their release schedules a lot more, otherwise, the issue likely won't go away.
Games Workshop release what people want to buy. Looking at their astonishing performance they seem to know what most people want.
=Angel= wrote: You have the perfect avatar for the level of unwarranted certainty/smugness of your posts. Congratulations I guess.
I am being accurate in my assessments, not negative. The rules are always model driven to an extent, but 'what's in the box IS the options' is the monkeys paw answer to 'I want all the options to be in the box'.
The 'Primaris can't get in a Landraider' is an entirely sales driven rule. It's not a model driven rule and its not a background driven rule. Its only function is to separate Primaris from your existing colection and drive sales of Primaris vehicles. When Grey Knights were conceptualised as a 'foot' army and not given rhinos as an option (even though Inq stormtroopers in the same codex could take them) they still didn't have a rule stopping them from getting into transport vehicles.
You can move on and take your attitude with you. I'm quite optimistic about the future of my army and hobby. I expect them to resolve the background issues with retcons, implement sensible rules/options as the models get updated and at some point Primaris will just be marines in MkX armour.
All we'll be left with from all the controversy is a few divisive sculpts.
Primaris being unable to take Land Raiders or Rhinos as transports is pretty much a sure-fire sign that GW doesn't actually want the Primaris line to 'integrate' with the old line, in contrast to the fluff.
New boxed sets contain only Primaris. New players are steered towards Primaris. GW stores predominantly stock Primaris. Primaris keep getting new and unique rules, and old characters are being converted over. Anyone getting into Space Marines now is probably going to be buying Primaris, not the old Marines.
When they inevitably retire the old Marines, it will be a nice and neat severance, since Primaris represent an entirely self-contained model line that doesn't require any legacy models to function. They get all their own infantry, dreadnoughts, characters, tanks, and wargear, and more to the point have Primaris counterparts for just about everything old Marines might provide an otherwise Primaris-only force.
It's a soft reboot, and that's entirely a marketing/sales decision, rather than one driven by fluff or gaming.
I don't know why some people see the current situation of a mixed Primaris/non-Primaris codex being anything other than a stop-gap before the old line is eventually retired. Nothing about how GW has designed and marketed Primaris implies that they want players buying non-Primaris models alongside their Primaris models. They've set it up so that you can still use your old collection while you (presumably) transition over to the Primaris range, but Primaris is what the Marine range will be going forward.
I don't think the concept of nicer marine models with some upscaled ability bothered most.
What bothered most people I think was the atrocious story mechanism used to introduce them, the way they don't fit with any existing units and longstanding staples like rhinos and drop pods, and the cringe inducing naming scheme that makes it impossible to keep units straight.
Beyond that I never saw any reason for people to dislike them, rather it was GW's absurdly hamfisted approach to their introduction.
Darsath wrote: I think that people are oversaturated with the "Bigger Better Space Marine" models. That's probably what's the cause of so much negativity really. Games Workshop really, really need to diversify their release schedules a lot more, otherwise, the issue likely won't go away.
Games Workshop release what people want to buy. Looking at their astonishing performance they seem to know what most people want.
Seems hilariously defensive, but my point was on the idea that Primaris weren't really being accepted. By your thread title, you already know about that issue.
Not sure what the context of "no negativity" is suppose to mean.
The topic of the thread suggests that Primaris are being accepted by all. OP thinks that negativity (any criticism) is dying down and wants to know if YOU think that's the case, unless you disagree, in which case, don't bring your negativity into his thread.
I've never once said Primaris are accepted by all.
If your input is something along the lines of: "The lore is crap, the model are crap" then don't post. If you're bitter and toxic don't post here - That is what I'm saying
Oh, good - so you'll be leaving the thread now, then?
It's kind of interesting to see the Primaris and the post-Cicatrix Malediction 41k universe as a kind of soft reboot vs the hard Age of Sigmar reboot involving the destruction of the Old World. Warhammer 40k actually made money, so they needed to sell more Space Marines to people that already had hundreds. I wish they'd just released Mk VI armour in Primaris-scale/quality, but I can see why they did an upgraded Mk IV and decided to make a clean break.
Ishagu wrote: Good riddance to anyone unhinged enough to burn their armies because GW introduced some new models.
Don't want such people in this community.
Really wasn't because of new models. It was because AoS is an entirely different game from WHFB that uses existing models. WHFB was more of a historicals flank and rank sort of game. AoS changed that. Don't know why the guy burned his army doe. Kings of War and 9th Age is around for fantasy flank and rank and you still have the models around for AoS.
The fluff / lore is still very much a work in progress. Having just read "Belisarius Cawl: The Great Work" I actually feel sorry for Decimus Felix (and the rest of the first Primaris batch).
Vaktathi wrote: I don't think the concept of nicer marine models with some upscaled ability bothered most.
What bothered most people I think was the atrocious story mechanism used to introduce them, the way they don't fit with any existing units and longstanding staples like rhinos and drop pods, and the cringe inducing naming scheme that makes it impossible to keep units straight.
Beyond that I never saw any reason for people to dislike them, rather it was GW's absurdly hamfisted approach to their introduction.
The hamfisted approach is needed if you want to sell the same army to people twice.
GW could have just updated the tacticals and devastators and veterans with the new armor, then introduced the new models, then re-made what was obsolete. Add re-designed terminators, whatever.
But that is $$$$ not $$$$$$ therefore here we go with some other preposterous fluff.
The hamfisted approach is needed if you want to sell the same army to people twice.
GW could have just updated the tacticals and devastators and veterans with the new armor, then introduced the new models, then re-made what was obsolete. Add re-designed terminators, whatever.
But that is $$$$ not $$$$$$ therefore here we go with some other preposterous fluff.
It's adorable that you think any of that would have happened.
Christ's sake, we have people still playing unpainted/primer colored armies these days just for metachasing. People whine about buying more than one book, even if the others aren't necessary for the army you're playing.
And you think that them "just updated the tacticals and devastators and veterans with the new armor" would have resulted in any sales? When there would be no rules differences?
I did some pruning, have removed offending posts and warnings have been issued to those who could not keep things polite.
This is a final warning to all participants: RULE #1 is not optional, I kindly ask you all to keep things polite. So no more rude or condescending replies please. Any further breaches of the site rules will result in suspensions.
I don't think primaris are being "accepted" so much has those that dislike them quieting down some because criticizing is useless as GW continues to focus on them, even to the extent of primarizing existing characters.
I dislike them for their fluff, being betterer more superer ultra-heroic than "normal marines." I dislike them for scale creep. I dislike them for their even more obscene prices.
Personally, I quite enjoy the Primaris marines. I certainly would have preferred them being introduced in a way that integrates them more with older stuff, but since Old Marines really were showing their age (even newer kits being held back by having to remain in the older design space), it has been quite refreshing to have a new line of Marines.
Aside from the aforementioned "segregation", the only other thing that initially bother me about the Primaris was that Chaos Marines didn't have an equivalent. But since Shadowspear, I've become ok with this. The scale update to CSMs and all the added Daemonic stuff makes it "even" if not "equivalent"
I am enjoying my "Movie Marines" though. Using DW Fortis units' rules to represent how "regular" marines are portrayed in fluff.
I think it's partly that people leave as well. I did and do think Primaris were awful but seeing as everyone I play with agrees and none of us play marines (anymore) so it's no longer something we're up to date on and it doesn't get discussed.
But good for people who like Primaris if they're getting better reception now.
An interesting thing I've noticed is that there are a lot more veterans who are playing 40k over here in the US, and I think that a lot of the redesign associated with Primaris weapons and vehicles has really appealed to that crowd. Yeah, bolters would be more fluffy, but I think having the more 'modern' looking weapons (as opposed to the more sci-fi style ones) on some units and vehicles has really helped push the appeal of Primaris models with folks over here.
Overall, the models themselves are what are appealing - while I wish for more of a mix, I played pure Primaris and pure Firstborn detachments since 8th came out, and they both presented their own interesting challenges. Some of those are being mitigated as more Primaris releases come out, and old marines are always going to suffer from the lack of a second wound when there are so many weapons that are good at killing power armor... but it makes for some interesting choices on the table during the weekends.
I dislike Primaris simply because I now have no idea what to do with my marines. I guess that will get resolved in a few years though. But it makes me not want to spend any money on marines at all atm.
I play Dark Angels. Are ravenwing now defunct? Will there be a primaris replacement? Will the line continue to be supported with rules? Will deathwing be replaced by gravis or something else? Will they even get unique units, or just generic models painted black or bone? Will I be able to use my current army in the future or are they getting totally mothballed?
redboi wrote: I dislike Primaris simply because I now have no idea what to do with my marines. I guess that will get resolved in a few years though. But it makes me not want to spend any money on marines at all atm.
I play Dark Angels. Are ravenwing now defunct? Will there be a primaris replacement? Will the line continue to be supported with rules? Will deathwing be replaced by gravis or something else? Will they even get unique units, or just generic models painted black or bone? Will I be able to use my current army in the future or are they getting totally mothballed?
Any thoughts that old marines models are going to be squatted is just paranoid thinking - GW has shown no inclination towards removing old marine models from play, and while we may see some updates, the iconic units for the chapters have remained intact thus far. In fact, those have remained unique to the old marine models - Deathwing will remain Deathwing, Ravenwing will remain Ravenwing, and I expect any new Primaris units will not add in to those old unique formations and models.
The most recent stuff has driven me entirely out of the game. I couldn't stand the wtf look of the new marine models starting with the phobos line, which they botched hardcore.
redboi wrote: I play Dark Angels. Are ravenwing now defunct? Will there be a primaris replacement? Will the line continue to be supported with rules? Will deathwing be replaced by gravis or something else? Will they even get unique units, or just generic models painted black or bone? Will I be able to use my current army in the future or are they getting totally mothballed?
Primaris Ravenwing, Primaris everything.
The only flaw in Primaris units for now is that they're mostly lacking in chapter specific flavor, and look too vanilla. New special characters show that flaw can be overcome. I see no reason not to release an upgrade kit for primaris bikers when they come, primaris black knights etc.
redboi wrote: I dislike Primaris simply because I now have no idea what to do with my marines. I guess that will get resolved in a few years though. But it makes me not want to spend any money on marines at all atm.
I play Dark Angels. Are ravenwing now defunct? Will there be a primaris replacement? Will the line continue to be supported with rules? Will deathwing be replaced by gravis or something else? Will they even get unique units, or just generic models painted black or bone? Will I be able to use my current army in the future or are they getting totally mothballed?
Your army is basically unchanged. Ravenwing and Deathwing aren't really accepting of the Primaris.
Highly suggest you grab this month's White Dwarf for the Dark Angels stuff in it.
redboi wrote: I dislike Primaris simply because I now have no idea what to do with my marines. I guess that will get resolved in a few years though. But it makes me not want to spend any money on marines at all atm.
I play Dark Angels. Are ravenwing now defunct? Will there be a primaris replacement? Will the line continue to be supported with rules? Will deathwing be replaced by gravis or something else? Will they even get unique units, or just generic models painted black or bone? Will I be able to use my current army in the future or are they getting totally mothballed?
Any thoughts that old marines models are going to be squatted is just paranoid thinking - GW has shown no inclination towards removing old marine models from play, and while we may see some updates, the iconic units for the chapters have remained intact thus far. In fact, those have remained unique to the old marine models - Deathwing will remain Deathwing, Ravenwing will remain Ravenwing, and I expect any new Primaris units will not add in to those old unique formations and models.
I would not call it paranoid to be honest. Yes GW has said that they will be supporting the old marines even thoug they released primaris, sure what were they supposed to say? "Look! We released some new shiny marines who are stronger, bigger and better than your old marines, and you have to buy those now if you want to play marines!" Of course they would not say that, they don't want to antagonize their old player base too much. But let's not kid ourselves, the main focus is on the primaris line and it will remain on the primaris model line and in a few years time, when primaris will have gotten their assault marine equivalent etc, the old marines will just fade out.
The primaris line was simply GWs attempt to bring the scaling of space marine models up to date and since GW focuses on the models first and on the lore second, they shoehorned in the primaris storyline and cawl. I am not saying that this is necessarily a bad thing, I like many of the new marine models (dont care for the supressors or the inceptors though), but how they were implemented into the lore could have been handled in a better way.
They could have either just brought the old marines up to scale, or released the primaris as a smaller elite force that is supposed to reinforce the chapters, that way it may not have felt like the primaris are a complete repleacement.
Shadenuat wrote: They will become suddenly more acceptant when primaris bikers roll out.
They better be jetbikes!
No, pls no.
No need for scatbikes 2.0
Wholeheartedly agree, but for theme reasons, not game abuse. I started playing Eldar when their shtick was anti-grav tech supremacy. Flyers didn't exist in 40K and only Eldar had Jetbikes (excluding Sameul of the Ravenwing). It's bad enough that Imperial have 40K scale flyers now, with Hover to boot!, but giving Primaris Jetbikes would just be salt in the wound.
Shadenuat wrote: They will become suddenly more acceptant when primaris bikers roll out.
They better be jetbikes!
No, pls no.
No need for scatbikes 2.0
Wholeheartedly agree, but for theme reasons, not game abuse. I started playing Eldar when their shtick was anti-grav tech supremacy. Flyers didn't exist in 40K and only Eldar had Jetbikes (excluding Sameul of the Ravenwing). It's bad enough that Imperial have 40K scale flyers now, with Hover to boot!, but giving Primaris Jetbikes would just be salt in the wound.
Galef wrote: Wholeheartedly agree, but for theme reasons, not game abuse. I started playing Eldar when their shtick was anti-grav tech supremacy. Flyers didn't exist in 40K and only Eldar had Jetbikes (excluding Sameul of the Ravenwing). It's bad enough that Imperial have 40K scale flyers now, with Hover to boot!, but giving Primaris Jetbikes would just be salt in the wound.
Thematic reasons is exactly why the Primaris got to have jetbikes! They have hover thanks, they need to have hover bikes too.
Galef wrote: Wholeheartedly agree, but for theme reasons, not game abuse. I started playing Eldar when their shtick was anti-grav tech supremacy. Flyers didn't exist in 40K and only Eldar had Jetbikes (excluding Sameul of the Ravenwing). It's bad enough that Imperial have 40K scale flyers now, with Hover to boot!, but giving Primaris Jetbikes would just be salt in the wound.
Thematic reasons is exactly why the Primaris got to have jetbikes! They have hover thanks, they need to have hover bikes too.
While I agree jetbikes fit with the hover-tanks that Primaris have been getting, I disagree that those ancient Marines on jetbikes can be a basis for justification.
After all, those are from the same era when Eldar had lasguns, Marines had shuriken weapons and Wraithlords were called Eldar Dreadnaughts. Obviously GW had not yet drawn lines that define factions as clearly as they are now
Galef wrote: While I agree jetbikes fit with the hover-tanks that Primaris have been getting, I disagree that those ancient Marines on jetbikes can be a basis for justification.
After all, those are from the same era when Eldar had lasguns, Marines had shuriken weapons and Wraithlords were called Eldar Dreadnaughts. Obviously GW had not yet drawn lines that define factions as clearly as they are now
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It isn't because if it were i doubt IoM should have that tech or know how over the ancient legions.
Galef wrote: While I agree jetbikes fit with the hover-tanks that Primaris have been getting, I disagree that those ancient Marines on jetbikes can be a basis for justification.
After all, those are from the same era when Eldar had lasguns, Marines had shuriken weapons and Wraithlords were called Eldar Dreadnaughts. Obviously GW had not yet drawn lines that define factions as clearly as they are now
I think some of the Primaris stuff has been inspired by the rogue trader. We have finally seen the glorious return of the marine hover tanks (and this time you don't need to built them out of deodorant bottles) and the Inceptors seem to be inspired by RT art too.
And when GW finally bothers ti release the multipart Infiltrators, I will be totally building one with a beaky, helmet, studded shoulderpad and a shuriken catapult!
I still don't personally like running Primaris, outside of Primaris HQs, but I've never minded the aesthetic. Most of the backlash seems to be centered around the fear of normal marines being phased out, and I think it's becoming clear that GW doesn't have any plans of doing that.
Ishagu wrote: No model, no rules is the result of 3rd party bits manufacturing and the need for them to legally protect their IP.
As for wargear mixing, this is a design change in Primaris and not really the topic of discussion. I have no issues with limiting wargear as it prevents spam of stronger combos - eg, smash captain. But again, not the topic.
One of the common reasons for people not accepting primaris. Is how they don’t fit into the universe. Part of that is all the new toys that Caul is handing out that break with established lore, but another is the out-of-universe restrictions imposed by GW’s rules and marketing team.
It is a barrier to full acceptance of the primaris line, which i thought was the topic of this thread.
I'd agree. Its several years on and another marine codex, and they still lack parts of the basic toolbox all armies need. A big part of the 'lack of acceptance' is they're still lacking AT and close combat, and GW is spinning a lot of wheels to make them work in 8th edition, where cheap beats elite, and the special rules to compensate are starting to spin out of control.
That and the new design direction for 8.5 edition.
When primaris were released the rules were bad (several cost reductions, bolter drill and +1 attack first round have really helped but they needed a lot of help) the lore was worse (Cawl > Big E...) and the threat of replacing the thousands of points of marines that I have painted over the last couple DECADES pissed me off. The fact that land raiders still suck so bad compared to the new models still bugs me (probably more than it should).
But I like the look of most of the models (Shrike can go suck an egg, captain in gravis I hate, the fat boy dread is ugly) I really like the scale and ease of painting (wish they came with a bit more bling but I have a huge box of bits to take care of that).
Now that the rules have gotten better and I've sold most of my mini marines on ebay (or converted them to deathwatch) I don't hate them as much.
The main problem I have now is they work so much better for vanilla marines than my BA/DA/SW it feels like I'm handicapped in any competitive match I bring non-codex astartes marines to. Proper jump-pack melee troops, deep strikers, bikes, and melee primaris will probably come eventually and they will make my armies work but the slow-roll of rules (and accompanying discrepancies of in-game power levels) sucks while you're waiting and paying more points for worse options...
Model wise, I have no real issue with the Primaris beyond the scale creep. They look alright. I would not get any because they are out of scale with my existing miniatures and scale creep is a pet peeve of mine, but I think it makes sense that GW finally made true scale marines and fixed the proportions a bit.
I think new players will probably pick them up because they look cooler, and most of us start off looking at the models and judging the aesthetics. So I think the negative reaction will get less over time for sure.
But I wish they had just made them truescaled marines in tactical squads and so on. I find GWs new "legally protectable" naming really cringey and poorly done.
What I have read of the new background seems like bad fanfic, but that is easy to ignore.
Give it a few more years and Primaris will be the "normal" and the old marines will be a quirky side note.
I think Pirmaris are kind of redundant. I always thought the Grey Knights were supposed to be (or at least planned to be) the next generation of space marines.
Dagoth_666 wrote: I think Pirmaris are kind of redundant. I always thought the Grey Knights were supposed to be (or at least planned to be) the next generation of space marines.
I'd probably be a little more spendy for Primaris Grey Knight.
BobtheInquisitor wrote:well, yeah. I had planned on a Thousands Son army, but the prices killed that. Not sure I'll end up with many Sisters of Battle, either. It's just that The primaris don't have resin legacy models or a huge swath of OOP starter plastics available for less than ten bucks each (tell me if they do!), so there's no way to ease into the army.
Not an easy way per say, but I find it incredibly easy to convert Intercessors or Reivers from the ETB kits into more specific HQ options (with a good bits box and a little bit of greenstuff, I think you could quite nicely create a Captain, Lieutenant and another HQ from the ETB kits, and just one box of Eliminators, plus two ETB Reiver kits gets you 3 units of Eliminators!). Whatever might help.
Also, the new sets have very few options compared to old favorites like the SM commander, DA veterans, and, of course, the Ravenwing Accessory Sprue. The Primaris upgrade sprues themselves seem sparse and stingy.
While I agree that I vastly prefer the old SM Commander sprue to the new Primaris Captain one, I also vastly prefer the Primaris Captain sprue to the current Space Marine Captain one (which has no options at all!) As you've said, it's not necessarily a Primaris issue, but they do suffer from it. However, because it's not a Primaris only issue, and it actually affects the immediately previous generation of Space Marines even worse, I don't count it against Primaris.
Yeah, I liked the non-combat stuff, but not enough to slog through the Nurgle. I'm up for a good primaris story, whether they are the main focus or not, so long as the other factions in the story aren't tedious. What is Knights of Macragge about?
It's about what happens to Cato Sicarius during his mishap in the Warp when his ship gets stranded and attacked by daemons and the forces of Chaos. It features both Primaris and Firstborn Marines (which I believe is where the term 'Firstborn' first gets used!), and actually quite a lot of Space Marines not actually using bolters and instead doing a lot of melee and unarmoured fighting! There's also some quite nice interaction between two Firstborn about the Primaris, Primaris and Firstborn discussing it, and even two Primaris Marines discussing the two different types of Space Marine, and actually arguing about it! Spoilers below where I'll talk more about the second half if you're not planning on reading it, but if you want to read it properly yourself, don't click!
Spoiler:
The second half is the better half by far, as it has Cato, his command squad, three humans, and an incredibly skilled but arrogant Primaris Marine crashland on a nearby planet. They get found by native humans, who are currently at a medieval technology level. The Space Marines decide to play it diplomatically, and pretend they're knights from a different land on the planet. As a result, they can only use inert power weapons, combat blades, and the Primaris Marine's spear, as well as their own fists and such, resulting in some pretty awesome scenes. Pillium, the Primaris Marine, even gets some cool moments, even if he's a pretty arrogant and generally self-important character - which is intentional, I hasten to add!
MrMoustaffa wrote: Still grumpy, still don't care for Primaris, you can pry my beloved mkIV beaky marines from my cold dead hands
And no Primaris Raven guard beakies don't count when you only get two heads per kit
Old beaky helmets fit just fine, they look great on Phobos marines.
I put a beakie helmet on my suppressor sgt and it looks killer.
Crimson wrote:
Galef wrote: Wholeheartedly agree, but for theme reasons, not game abuse. I started playing Eldar when their shtick was anti-grav tech supremacy. Flyers didn't exist in 40K and only Eldar had Jetbikes (excluding Sameul of the Ravenwing). It's bad enough that Imperial have 40K scale flyers now, with Hover to boot!, but giving Primaris Jetbikes would just be salt in the wound.
Thematic reasons is exactly why the Primaris got to have jetbikes! They have hover thanks, they need to have hover bikes too.
Also, it's not even a new thing.
Jes spoke at some length in one of the Voxcasts on primaris about taking themes and design cues from RT. The more units that come out, the more I'm liking them as a cohesive whole. Now with the legion specific supplements and characters in modified mkX armour there is even more to pump out your marines.
fraser1191 wrote: I love how jet bikes are such a hot topic because other factions have them. Personally I'd like to an eldar tank with treads
Man, that would be hilarious. "Hey, Eldar players! You have been ignored for so long we decided to create a brand new super heavy tank for CWE. Crush your enemies under your wraithbone tracks!" I want to see it happen so much.
BobtheInquisitor wrote:well, yeah. I had planned on a Thousands Son army, but the prices killed that. Not sure I'll end up with many Sisters of Battle, either. It's just that The primaris don't have resin legacy models or a huge swath of OOP starter plastics available for less than ten bucks each (tell me if they do!), so there's no way to ease into the army.
Not an easy way per say, but I find it incredibly easy to convert Intercessors or Reivers from the ETB kits into more specific HQ options (with a good bits box and a little bit of greenstuff, I think you could quite nicely create a Captain, Lieutenant and another HQ from the ETB kits, and just one box of Eliminators, plus two ETB Reiver kits gets you 3 units of Eliminators!). Whatever might help.
Also, the new sets have very few options compared to old favorites like the SM commander, DA veterans, and, of course, the Ravenwing Accessory Sprue. The Primaris upgrade sprues themselves seem sparse and stingy.
While I agree that I vastly prefer the old SM Commander sprue to the new Primaris Captain one, I also vastly prefer the Primaris Captain sprue to the current Space Marine Captain one (which has no options at all!) As you've said, it's not necessarily a Primaris issue, but they do suffer from it. However, because it's not a Primaris only issue, and it actually affects the immediately previous generation of Space Marines even worse, I don't count it against Primaris.
Yeah, I liked the non-combat stuff, but not enough to slog through the Nurgle. I'm up for a good primaris story, whether they are the main focus or not, so long as the other factions in the story aren't tedious. What is Knights of Macragge about?
It's about what happens to Cato Sicarius during his mishap in the Warp when his ship gets stranded and attacked by daemons and the forces of Chaos. It features both Primaris and Firstborn Marines (which I believe is where the term 'Firstborn' first gets used!), and actually quite a lot of Space Marines not actually using bolters and instead doing a lot of melee and unarmoured fighting! There's also some quite nice interaction between two Firstborn about the Primaris, Primaris and Firstborn discussing it, and even two Primaris Marines discussing the two different types of Space Marine, and actually arguing about it! Spoilers below where I'll talk more about the second half if you're not planning on reading it, but if you want to read it properly yourself, don't click!
Spoiler:
The second half is the better half by far, as it has Cato, his command squad, three humans, and an incredibly skilled but arrogant Primaris Marine crashland on a nearby planet. They get found by native humans, who are currently at a medieval technology levell. The Space Marines decide to play it diplomatically, and pretend they're knights from a different land on the planet. As a result, they can only use inert power weapons, combat blades, and the Primaris Marine's spear, as well as their own fists and such, resulting in some pretty awesome scenes. Pillium, the Primaris Marine, even gets some cool moments, even if he's a pretty arrogant and generally self-important character - which is intentional, I hasten to add!
To the first part, I am also using old bits to upgrade the ETB Reiver bodies (and soonish maybe intercessors), but they are not really the main product line. I have no plans to buy any Primaris marines that are not ETB or heavily, nay, mercilessly discounted. For some other armies, I might make exceptions despite the ridiculous prices for an outrageous model or a kit with a ton of spare options, but Primaris haven't really hit either of those thresholds yet.
As for the lack of options on sprues, yes it affects all the ranges, but most other ranges still sell older kits with lots of options. Primaris don't have those. So, while the disappointment might not be disproportionately directed from me to the Primaris, they will disproportionately receive it since they have no command squad box equivalent to keep me interested. Not a reason to hate on Primaris, but a lack of a reason to care about Primaris marines, I guess.
Thanks for that heads up about Knights of Macragge. I'll be picking it up when I finish my current reads.
And yeah, that normal SM Captain is super lame. He picks all the same weapons and adornments as every other captain like he has no personality at all.
I kinda hope they don't do Primaris bikes, speeders etc. i like the aesthetics of my Ravenwing and don't want any of the uglyPrimaris vehicles butchering that. It's probably why I am so enamoured by new Ravenguard, I can play with the new Vanguard marines and not invest in any of the vehicles (which keeps me thematic). I don't mind the Redemptor but I cannot stand the repulsor series or the new Impulsor.
I don't actually play Marines at all but I thought an outsider's perspective might nevertheless be of interest to some.
In terms of models, they seem mostly fine. The only ones that really stick out to me are the hover tanks and the Inceptors. The former just don't look right to me. Not sure what it is exactly, maybe the chassis is just too close to that of the normal, tracked vehicles. I know the Imperium likes reusing stuff but come on. But it's the Inceptors that really get me. Their poses just look daft. They don't look like they're flying of their own volition but instead look like Superman just punched them off the ground.
But aside from those and a few minor gripes (I hate the look of the power-fist-guns) the models seem basically fine. Not my thing but nice enough models.
However, the thing that really gets me is that I'm still unclear on why Primaris needed to exist in the first place. Now, if GW wanted to give normal marines Primaris stats then that would seem perfectly reasonable. Likewise, if GW wanted to gradually scale up Marines to Primaris levels to make them stand out more from IG and such, I could understand that as well. I could kind of understand Primaris being a separate faction (like Dark Angels, Space Wolves etc.), though I don't think that would work fluffwise. But what doesn't make sense to me is having Primaris and Space Marines coexisting in the same book. It just seems ridiculous to have so many elite units all trying to occupy the same design space.
Lastly, I'll freely admit that I'm biased on this point but Eldar have been waiting for updated kits for God knows how long, the Dark Eldar codex has spent the last 2 editions haemorrhaging units, and for all intents and purposes Corsairs don't even exist anymore. But no, it was far more important to release a whole new line of fat Space Marines. I guess GW felt it wasn't catering sufficiently to the inflation-fetishist market.
redboi wrote: I dislike Primaris simply because I now have no idea what to do with my marines. I guess that will get resolved in a few years though. But it makes me not want to spend any money on marines at all atm.
I play Dark Angels. Are ravenwing now defunct? Will there be a primaris replacement? Will the line continue to be supported with rules? Will deathwing be replaced by gravis or something else? Will they even get unique units, or just generic models painted black or bone? Will I be able to use my current army in the future or are they getting totally mothballed?
Any thoughts that old marines models are going to be squatted is just paranoid thinking - GW has shown no inclination towards removing old marine models from play, and while we may see some updates, the iconic units for the chapters have remained intact thus far. In fact, those have remained unique to the old marine models - Deathwing will remain Deathwing, Ravenwing will remain Ravenwing, and I expect any new Primaris units will not add in to those old unique formations and models.
They've ripped Command Squads into three four different units and at least one unit has been outright removed. Things aren't as bad as the end of oldmarines but they aren't perfect either.
If you mean have people accepted they are part of 40k, well yes of course, i think you'll find most people accepted they were part of 40k when GW first released them, regardless of wether they liked them or not,
If by accepted you mean people who didnt like them in the last 2 years starting to like them now, then no, that doesn't appear to be happening.
One well received model with universal appeal (Agatone) among the recently released chapter specific characters, that is good because it changes poor parts of the MKX aethsetic, hasn't changed that. They were bound to make one good model soon. But its not going to suddenly make people like the previous models or fluff.
Don't mistake good feelings for one or a few new models as people suddenly liking the entire primaris line
RuneGrey wrote: Any thoughts that old marines models are going to be squatted is just paranoid thinking
Why can't Primaris use non-Primaris transport?
Why are Primaris being given direct equivalents to every non-Primaris battlefield role?
Why does every new boxed set only feature Primaris?
Why are all the named characters being re-released as Primaris?
I'm not a SM player so I have no horse in this race, but GW's been treating Primaris like a separate army, not an expansion to an existing one, which heavily suggests that the Primaris line is intended to become completely standalone. With the total lack of concurrent updates to normal Marines, I don't see any reason to believe that they intend to keep supporting them in perpetuity.
It may be a couple of years, but I strongly suspect the next SM codex will be Primaris-only, and non-Primaris Marines will be relegated to some form of 'index' status. I'm sure they'll still be usable (although maybe not in tournaments), but they're not going to be getting monthly releases like Primaris are.
I played Chaos Dwarfs back in the day so I've experienced this before. It's not squatting per se, but in the long run it's the same effect.
Kanluwen wrote: People have been predicting normal Marines will get squatted since day one.
You haven't been right. Move on.
While I certainly agree that old marines aren't getting squatted anytime soon, I don't think you can say those people are wrong. By definition all things eventually end, so those people are 100% correct. Non-Primaris Marine kits will eventually stop being produced Whether that's within the next few years, or when GW ceases to exist as a company, or when the Sun explodes and kills us all, is another matter
Realistically, I do think there will be a time in which old marines are not supported and Primaris Marines are the only Marines. I just don't think it will be in the near future. Probably by 10th edition though at the latest I do however, this it is smart to start that transition now. Both for GW and for players.
Kanluwen wrote: People have been predicting normal Marines will get squatted since day one.
Have there been any developments that have made this look less likely?
Because there have certainly been plenty that have made it seem more and more plausible than on day one.
Look at the supplements Marines got. There's relics in them that Primaris cannot take.
There's Stratagems specific to non-Primaris units.
Oh, and the fact that they haven't just dropped them period.
I believe normal marines got significantly more stratagems than Primaris, got 2 additional stratagems beyond the Vigilus ones. Hunter slayer missile for repulsors and gene wrought might. All other new ones are universal or old marine specific like Fury of the first
Finally accepting them now - I wouldn't dream of building an older vanilla marines army now... which is sort of sad
The scale with some characters is really weird but I genuinely like the stock intercessor models. Not a fan of the Primaris Dreads or those jumping autocannon fellows but the Phobos guys look killer
I think the doomsayers actually want old marines to be squatted at this point so they can feel vindicated in their whining.
It's going to become a self fulfilling prophecy. People stop buying old marines out of fear of them being squatted, so sales drop resulting in the squatting.
Sentineil wrote: I think the doomsayers actually want old marines to be squatted at this point so they can feel vindicated in their whining.
It's going to become a self fulfilling prophecy. People stop buying old marines out of fear of them being squatted, so sales drop resulting in the squatting.
'Death is nothing compared to vindication'.
Little did we know, Kurze was actually talking about the Space Marine fanbase.
Sentineil wrote: I think the doomsayers actually want old marines to be squatted at this point so they can feel vindicated in their whining.
It's going to become a self fulfilling prophecy. People stop buying old marines out of fear of them being squatted, so sales drop resulting in the squatting.
Call it being a doomsayer if you want but I want to see something meaningful done with the old marines to keep them in the fully in the setting instead of the current fluff basically saying "Primaris are the future". Civil war this mess up (they can retcon it by saying that the IoM was suppressing the truth about how many chapters/worlds didn't accept Cawl's goody bag of tech heresy kindly). Now you have opportunities to expand both product lines without alienating the fan base, make the situation seem even more dire,l. Take the old marine line down a darker path while they can continue to market their Primaris as the more noble bright faction they want them to be.
If and when Firstborn are edged out, bolter marines will become boltfrifle marines, plasma marines will become helblasters and flamer marines will become conflagrators. Etc
Sentineil wrote: I think the doomsayers actually want old marines to be squatted at this point so they can feel vindicated in their whining.
It's going to become a self fulfilling prophecy. People stop buying old marines out of fear of them being squatted, so sales drop resulting in the squatting.
Call it being a doomsayer if you want but I want to see something meaningful done with the old marines to keep them in the fully in the setting instead of the current fluff basically saying "Primaris are the future". Civil war this mess up (they can retcon it by saying that the IoM was suppressing the truth about how many chapters/worlds didn't accept Cawl's goody bag of tech heresy kindly). Now you have opportunities to expand both product lines without alienating the fan base, make the situation seem even more dire,l. Take the old marine line down a darker path while they can continue to market their Primaris as the more noble bright faction they want them to be.
...the Raven Guard destroyed a relic STC that was powering a force field protecting a Hive City from an Ork Waagh because the Iron Hands(wanting to remove the relic and take it somewhere else, as "the Hive City was doomed" per their logic) and Imperial Fists("we're not going to abandon these people") were quarreling over it, and you think they're making Marines "the more noble bright faction"?
These words. They do not mean what you think they mean.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: I still maintain that the civil war option would feel played out and kinda generic. I really hope GW don't do that.
I think it could have been an interesting way of making Primaris less pure awesome. Sadly the ship has sailed on that.
The Dark Angels are using their Primaris as literal meatshields, Blood Angels distrust them because they don't exhibit their flaws, and even the more accepting Chapters have holdouts...and somehow the more interesting thing is civil war?
=Angel= wrote: If and when Firstborn are edged out, bolter marines will become boltfrifle marines, plasma marines will become helblasters and flamer marines will become conflagrators. Etc
I wasn’t keen on Primaris when I first heard about them; I had three companies of marine models already, and a new line didn’t make me happy.
I’ve now got a few squads and the vehicles, and they’re interesting to play, but I’m not planning to get rid of my old models anytime soon. Funnily enough, I wish GW would “just pull off the bandaid” and switch to Primaris only. Old marines could go to Legend play for those of us who have the old models, and I’d be okay with that (I’m not going to 9E when it comes along). It’s also annoying vehicles can’t be mixed by the two, but that silliness easy enough to ignore in home games.
I’m also a bit ruffled that Primaris have two wounds - I really think that is a bad precedent, and no army should have a base Troop unit that has two wounds. But that is a small enough concern it doesn’t stop me from using the models.
Also, not a fan of the Primaris background, but on the game board, that’s easy enough to ignore. And I have no desire to comb through iffy Black Library books to try and justify beyond what I’ve read in the BRB (and skim of Gathering Storm).
I wasn’t keen on Primaris when I first heard about them; I had three companies of marine models already, and a new line didn’t make me happy.
I’ve now got a few squads and the vehicles, and they’re interesting to play, but I’m not planning to get rid of my old models anytime soon. Funnily enough, I wish GW would “just pull off the bandaid” and switch to Primaris only. Old marines could go to Legend play for those of us who have the old models, and I’d be okay with that (I’m not going to 9E when it comes along). It’s also annoying vehicles can’t be mixed by the two, but that silliness easy enough to ignore in home games.
I’m also a bit ruffled that Primaris have two wounds - I really think that is a bad precedent, and no army should have a base Troop unit that has two wounds. But that is a small enough concern it doesn’t stop me from using the models.
Also, not a fan of the Primaris background, but on the game board, that’s easy enough to ignore. And I have no desire to comb through iffy Black Library books to try and justify beyond what I’ve read in the BRB (and skim of Gathering Storm).
I only have a Primaris only army, but I think the non-Primaris should be around for a while longer. The only reason I don't have a composite army is I don't have non-Dark Angels (Fallen actually) Firstborn and didn't want to buy even more stuff as well as I don't think the aesthetically (which is probably the most important element of 40k to me) they mix well on the tabletop. Besides, I like how a pure Firstborn and pure Primaris army function both the same and just different enough that your opponent has to adjust to either. It is kinda nice to have one codex that kinda covers two kinds of armies.
As for the number of wounds, I am surprised it took this long. I really like the idea of multi-wound infantry. I personally don't have an issue with tokens on the table (strange that visuals is the most important aspect with me). I think wounds/hit points is good feedback mechanic for something like this. It allow the opponent player to feel like they accomplished something without forcing a binary healthy/dead state. I personally never like the old vehicle damage method for that reason it was possible to lose a tank in a single shot or have it all game long with barely a scratch on it. With wounds I feel like I am at least chipping away at the thing. I would much rather have this instead of some Invul Save, FNP, etc. I just think that all marines should have two wounds as really feels like something they should all have. Primaris are tougher than Firstborn, but I don't think they are 2 wounds tough. They could have easily had something else instead to reflect that while making all marines feel more marine-y.
Sentineil wrote: I think the doomsayers actually want old marines to be squatted at this point so they can feel vindicated in their whining.
It's going to become a self fulfilling prophecy. People stop buying old marines out of fear of them being squatted, so sales drop resulting in the squatting.
Call it being a doomsayer if you want but I want to see something meaningful done with the old marines to keep them in the fully in the setting instead of the current fluff basically saying "Primaris are the future". Civil war this mess up (they can retcon it by saying that the IoM was suppressing the truth about how many chapters/worlds didn't accept Cawl's goody bag of tech heresy kindly). Now you have opportunities to expand both product lines without alienating the fan base, make the situation seem even more dire,l. Take the old marine line down a darker path while they can continue to market their Primaris as the more noble bright faction they want them to be.
...the Raven Guard destroyed a relic STC that was powering a force field protecting a Hive City from an Ork Waagh because the Iron Hands(wanting to remove the relic and take it somewhere else, as "the Hive City was doomed" per their logic) and Imperial Fists("we're not going to abandon these people") were quarreling over it, and you think they're making Marines "the more noble bright faction"?
These words. They do not mean what you think they mean.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: I still maintain that the civil war option would feel played out and kinda generic. I really hope GW don't do that.
I think it could have been an interesting way of making Primaris less pure awesome. Sadly the ship has sailed on that.
The Dark Angels are using their Primaris as literal meatshields, Blood Angels distrust them because they don't exhibit their flaws, and even the more accepting Chapters have holdouts...and somehow the more interesting thing is civil war?
We did the Horus Heresy, thanks.
We also already have people baselessly mistrusting others in the Imperium. See? I can generalise too.
It could have made the Rift more meaningful, made things less like they're going super well for the Imperium in the scheme of things and have actual conflict between Guilliman and the existing power structure/paranoid loonies.
Sentineil wrote: I think the doomsayers actually want old marines to be squatted at this point so they can feel vindicated in their whining.
It's going to become a self fulfilling prophecy. People stop buying old marines out of fear of them being squatted, so sales drop resulting in the squatting.
Call it being a doomsayer if you want but I want to see something meaningful done with the old marines to keep them in the fully in the setting instead of the current fluff basically saying "Primaris are the future". Civil war this mess up (they can retcon it by saying that the IoM was suppressing the truth about how many chapters/worlds didn't accept Cawl's goody bag of tech heresy kindly). Now you have opportunities to expand both product lines without alienating the fan base, make the situation seem even more dire,l. Take the old marine line down a darker path while they can continue to market their Primaris as the more noble bright faction they want them to be.
...the Raven Guard destroyed a relic STC that was powering a force field protecting a Hive City from an Ork Waagh because the Iron Hands(wanting to remove the relic and take it somewhere else, as "the Hive City was doomed" per their logic) and Imperial Fists("we're not going to abandon these people") were quarreling over it, and you think they're making Marines "the more noble bright faction"?
These words. They do not mean what you think they mean.
Your example doesn't really illustrate much of anything beyond a lack of unity. The point I'm trying to say is that GW is trying to paint the picture of Space Marines being the heroes who fight the bad guys. There is "hope" with Gulliman being able to rally the IoM and the reintroduction of technology instead of the regression that the IoM has endured for thousands of years. It's less grimdark and the store front introduction to the hobby is painting the space marines as the heroes.
From the Dark Imperium box set on GW's website.
"Mighty warriors and fearless protectors, equipped with the greatest weapons and armour the Imperium can provide, the Space Marines are heroes one and all. The product of ten thousand years’ labour by Archmagos Dominus Belisarius Cawl, the Primaris Space Marines were forged from fragments of the Emperor’s original experiments – they are immensely powerful and capable warriors, even more intimidating in stature than any of their previous brethren, created on the order of none other than Roboute Guilliman himself."
Granted what writers put in their books are going to differ but the material coming direct from GW aimed at attracting new players paints them as the heroes of the setting.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: I still maintain that the civil war option would feel played out and kinda generic. I really hope GW don't do that.
I think it could have been an interesting way of making Primaris less pure awesome. Sadly the ship has sailed on that.
The Dark Angels are using their Primaris as literal meatshields, Blood Angels distrust them because they don't exhibit their flaws, and even the more accepting Chapters have holdouts...and somehow the more interesting thing is civil war?
We did the Horus Heresy, thanks.
I'm sorry but this grumbling bit is hardly conflict or compelling story telling. The problem is that GW hand waves the existance of this Primaris project and everybody accepts it despite this being the zogging IoM where anything outside of tradition is viewed with hostility. There's enough fanatics in the IoM that view big E as infaliable so anything done to his holy work (space marines) to change them would be extreme heresy. There are entire orders dedicated to living and dying for the Emperor and yet not one of them raised arms against this ancient toaster clanking around "improving" what their god created?
Badab War was an interesting conflict and it would be even more interesting to have a major conflict between IoM worlds in which there is no true good or bad side but a conflict of ideologies, survival, and circumstance. Again a means to muddy the waters and tell more interesting stories than just "the hero marines/humans fight valiantly against the dangerous chaos/xenos threat".
If you want to make it Gulliman centric then frame it as how Bobby G is trying to fix the broken Imperium and lead humanity to a brighter future and yet his actions lead to the IoM to the brink of collapse (echoing how Big E's plans for humanity's future was ruined by people misunderstanding or not accepting his actions). For GW it's a way to create another faction using already existing sprues, create rules for renegade (non chaos) marines/guard/sisters/etc.
Bit weirded out by the imposition of no negativity in the OP 's thread title - kinda arrogant i have to say. Anyway, as to the question itself, i have no idea and don't really care. This whole thing is just an exercise in gaslighting from GW and primaris fanbois it seems to me, i certainly can say i won't buy them ever, they are not for me. And if they take over the space marine line that's cool, i just won't be spending my money on the hobby anymore. WOW classic is out so there's plenty of competition for my time and money.
And i've posted this elsewhere but for the purposes of this conversation i personally don't accept them because the models are fat and ugly and the lore is terrible - they are test tube babies. Horrible stuff, soulless and dry imo
Hecube wrote: Bit weirded out by the imposition of no negativity in the OP 's thread title - kinda arrogant i have to say. Anyway, as to the question itself, i have no idea and don't really care. This whole thing is just an exercise in gaslighting from GW and primaris fanbois it seems to me, i certainly can say i won't buy them ever, they are not for me. And if they take over the space marine line that's cool, i just won't be spending my money on the hobby anymore. WOW classic is out so there's plenty of competition for my time and money.
And i've posted this elsewhere but for the purposes of this conversation i personally don't accept them because the models are fat and ugly and the lore is terrible - they are test tube babies. Horrible stuff, soulless and dry imo
I think your post illustrates quite well why the imposition was included. Even with it, you decided to thread gak when you could have very easily not posted anything at all.
I hope in the future you chose to be more considerate to others even if they are not considerate of you.
Sentineil wrote: I think the doomsayers actually want old marines to be squatted at this point so they can feel vindicated in their whining.
It's going to become a self fulfilling prophecy. People stop buying old marines out of fear of them being squatted, so sales drop resulting in the squatting.
Call it being a doomsayer if you want but I want to see something meaningful done with the old marines to keep them in the fully in the setting instead of the current fluff basically saying "Primaris are the future". Civil war this mess up (they can retcon it by saying that the IoM was suppressing the truth about how many chapters/worlds didn't accept Cawl's goody bag of tech heresy kindly). Now you have opportunities to expand both product lines without alienating the fan base, make the situation seem even more dire,l. Take the old marine line down a darker path while they can continue to market their Primaris as the more noble bright faction they want them to be.
...the Raven Guard destroyed a relic STC that was powering a force field protecting a Hive City from an Ork Waagh because the Iron Hands(wanting to remove the relic and take it somewhere else, as "the Hive City was doomed" per their logic) and Imperial Fists("we're not going to abandon these people") were quarreling over it, and you think they're making Marines "the more noble bright faction"?
These words. They do not mean what you think they mean.
Your example doesn't really illustrate much of anything beyond a lack of unity. The point I'm trying to say is that GW is trying to paint the picture of Space Marines being the heroes who fight the bad guys. There is "hope" with Gulliman being able to rally the IoM and the reintroduction of technology instead of the regression that the IoM has endured for thousands of years. It's less grimdark and the store front introduction to the hobby is painting the space marines as the heroes.
From the Dark Imperium box set on GW's website.
"Mighty warriors and fearless protectors, equipped with the greatest weapons and armour the Imperium can provide, the Space Marines are heroes one and all. The product of ten thousand years’ labour by Archmagos Dominus Belisarius Cawl, the Primaris Space Marines were forged from fragments of the Emperor’s original experiments – they are immensely powerful and capable warriors, even more intimidating in stature than any of their previous brethren, created on the order of none other than Roboute Guilliman himself."
Granted what writers put in their books are going to differ but the material coming direct from GW aimed at attracting new players paints them as the heroes of the setting.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: I still maintain that the civil war option would feel played out and kinda generic. I really hope GW don't do that.
I think it could have been an interesting way of making Primaris less pure awesome. Sadly the ship has sailed on that.
The Dark Angels are using their Primaris as literal meatshields, Blood Angels distrust them because they don't exhibit their flaws, and even the more accepting Chapters have holdouts...and somehow the more interesting thing is civil war?
We did the Horus Heresy, thanks.
I'm sorry but this grumbling bit is hardly conflict or compelling story telling. The problem is that GW hand waves the existance of this Primaris project and everybody accepts it despite this being the zogging IoM where anything outside of tradition is viewed with hostility. There's enough fanatics in the IoM that view big E as infaliable so anything done to his holy work (space marines) to change them would be extreme heresy. There are entire orders dedicated to living and dying for the Emperor and yet not one of them raised arms against this ancient toaster clanking around "improving" what their god created?
Badab War was an interesting conflict and it would be even more interesting to have a major conflict between IoM worlds in which there is no true good or bad side but a conflict of ideologies, survival, and circumstance. Again a means to muddy the waters and tell more interesting stories than just "the hero marines/humans fight valiantly against the dangerous chaos/xenos threat".
If you want to make it Gulliman centric then frame it as how Bobby G is trying to fix the broken Imperium and lead humanity to a brighter future and yet his actions lead to the IoM to the brink of collapse (echoing how Big E's plans for humanity's future was ruined by people misunderstanding or not accepting his actions). For GW it's a way to create another faction using already existing sprues, create rules for renegade (non chaos) marines/guard/sisters/etc.
The Badab War was interesting because the civil war thing doesn't happen all the time, on top of the interesting Chapters present.
Indefinite civil war is boring, and honestly as bad as GW is sometimes with fluff writing, ideas like yours are honestly far worse.
I think that a lot of the initial negative reaction was to the fluff, but also to the fact that primaris marines represent on the table how Space Marine players always felt their army SHOULD play. Multiple wounds, more deadly bolters, more lethal versions of special weapons...you can find all of these in proposed rules from 7th ed on back. A lot of players (myself included) felt like the release of 8th was a huge missed opportunity for GW to re-write the marine statline to reflect the fluff, and with truescale conversions being all the rage to release new models for an old but flagship line.
I think the qualifier was added to the title because I don't think there has been any thread here on Dakka of more than a few posts that didn't have someone going negative to the point of being rude/inflammatory. I think for the most part other posters, the portion where the mods had to get involved not withstanding, have stated their opposing view respectably. I only made the above comment because that poster seemed to go out there way to include negative personal opinions and superficial background information that demonstrates they don't care to learn more on the subject nor budge from their initial impression. And that impression is so strong they must tell others it and that it appears to be the driving reason they are no longer interested in 40k.
With the exception of the Redemptor and Gravis armor I can't really see the Primaris as fat especial in comparison to Firstborn. If anything, I think the Primaris might be a little thin in the waist as the chest does have a rather extreme taper to it. I think what is called fat is more a rounded on the belly armor which is rather extreme on Gravis armor, however, the taper chest to waist is still there where if the marine was fat I would expect love handles. As for the test tube part, I mean isn't that exactly what the Primarch's are? Besides that, I don't know if I have ever read exactly how the initial Primaris were created. As far as I know, they could have undergone the same process that firstborn children did before being placed in status and given simulated training. Heck, at this point I doubt there are all that many of those marines left after the Indomitus Crusade.
I have no illusions that everyone interested in 40k are going to accept Primaris Marines. There will certainly be an element of fans that will always dislike them. We are talking about a setting in which I am sure you will still find people that don't accept the Tau which have been part of the setting longer than they haven't at this point. I do wonder how close Primaris are getting to Tau where one could post a topic on them here on Dakka and not have someone come in and drop their negative opinions and rather shallow knowledge of them with no further explanation. Are far as I can tell Hecube only was told the what the lore of Primaris are and only briefly glanced at a picture of them and decided since they aren't whatever drew him to 40k and are different than what he knows, he hates them. As opposed to Insectum7, who articulated his issues with Primaris. I don't agree with those issues, but I do understand why he hold them and how that affects his preference of them. I see one as negative and the other as opposing.
Seriously, folks, if you don't want to participate in the topic under discussion, then don't. Kindly refrain from derailing the thread arguing over the validity of the topic.
Edit - Apparently, I was unclear. For the record, a thread asking for people to post the positive things about a given aspect of the hobby is fine. Showing disagreement with something is fine. Posting in a thread just to tell people that they're talking about toy soldiers wrong is not. Derailing the thread in order to argue about whether or not the thread should exist is off-topic, and will be treated as spam. If you think a thread doesn't belong, hit the mod alert button and move on. DO NOT post in the thread just to gak in a topic that you disagree with.
Ok, positive, I like mostly the way they look though some units I don't like at all. I think the primaris chaplain is meh, he carries a pimp cane, for instance.
I will say however the idea no one will say anything bad about primaris is a lofty dream. As I'm sure if someone made an anti primaris thread and asked positive vibes to stay out, I somehow doubt they would. Though, to be frank disagreement in itself isn't toxic, I think somewhere along the line we missed that.
I think mostly speaking, people do accept anything put out for long enough. However some of GWs handling makes it hard to really embrace primaris as some might. The costs for the new kits is a touch over the top in a few ways. I feel like when I'm asked to pay like 75$. 85$ 100$ for a transport, it's gone too far. When I'm asked to pay that because my space marines are racist to primaris, it doesn't make me want to slap down that money as they are treating me like an idiot and really that makes me feel cross.
I mean, I'm supposed to believe a larger custodes can fit in a land raider but a primaris can't ? Or that they couldn't sqeeze even five into a rhino ? Ok, pretty cheap there GW coneheads.
If they didn't bork the roll out, stopped treating us like fools, and maybe stopped some other dumb choices. Like the names of units, which kinda sucks. I could see more people embracing them. As is they are divisive which why wouldn't they be ? It feels like one of the most long standing player bases could have their army squatted around them, then talked down to in the process.
If you're a new player, I could imagine you don't mind at all. If we're just talking the models, mostly speaking, that is great too. However the primaris beast is more than just that and little in life is just that easy.
I'll point out that is trying to be neither negative or toxic, simply voicing my view on it.
Vankraken wrote:Your example doesn't really illustrate much of anything beyond a lack of unity. The point I'm trying to say is that GW is trying to paint the picture of Space Marines being the heroes who fight the bad guys. There is "hope" with Gulliman being able to rally the IoM and the reintroduction of technology instead of the regression that the IoM has endured for thousands of years. It's less grimdark and the store front introduction to the hobby is painting the space marines as the heroes.
From the Dark Imperium box set on GW's website.
"Mighty warriors and fearless protectors, equipped with the greatest weapons and armour the Imperium can provide, the Space Marines are heroes one and all. The product of ten thousand years’ labour by Archmagos Dominus Belisarius Cawl, the Primaris Space Marines were forged from fragments of the Emperor’s original experiments – they are immensely powerful and capable warriors, even more intimidating in stature than any of their previous brethren, created on the order of none other than Roboute Guilliman himself."
Granted what writers put in their books are going to differ but the material coming direct from GW aimed at attracting new players paints them as the heroes of the setting.
The problem with this point is (and you touch on it yourself) that GW have been doing that for decades already, since before Primaris were even on the horizon. Space Marine have nearly always been initially marketed as "fearless defenders of mankind, demigods of war, genetically superior to any mortal man, armed with the mightiest weapons and finest armour!" or words to that effect. You don't see the whole "oh yeah, they fight for a theocratic totalitarian empire, are massively xenophobic, and progress and enlightenment is painfully slow" until you actually scratch the surface - which, if people did with Primaris Marines, would realise that all the "bestest ever!!!" marketing fluff (which has already been used for regular Space Marines, might I emphasise) is exactly that: marketing fluff.
I'm willing to bet that if regular Space Marines hadn't existed up until now and were released with all their bells and whistles, people would be saying exactly the same about them as they are the Primaris. I imagine one of the only reasons one is accepted more widely over the other is because Primaris are new and Firstborn are not.
I'm sorry but this grumbling bit is hardly conflict or compelling story telling. The problem is that GW hand waves the existance of this Primaris project and everybody accepts it despite this being the zogging IoM where anything outside of tradition is viewed with hostility. There's enough fanatics in the IoM that view big E as infaliable so anything done to his holy work (space marines) to change them would be extreme heresy. There are entire orders dedicated to living and dying for the Emperor and yet not one of them raised arms against this ancient toaster clanking around "improving" what their god created?
Except when that ancient toaster is a personal friend/acquaintance of the Emperor himself, an ally of a Primarch (who just happens to also have returned to the Imperium, and, like all Primarchs, is venerated in his own right by practically everyone, even by other Chapters of Space Marines) and coming to the Imperium's aid during one of it's most devastating crises, I think that it genuinely would be accepted.
Who's going to argue with one of the 9 Primarchs, the one who's arguably the second most respected and admired by the Imperium as a whole (1st being Sanguinius, obviously)? Who's going to argue with the Custodes? Who's going to argue with someone the Emperor knew personally and personally instructed to build the Primaris? As much as the Imperium's a place where "anything outside of tradition is viewed with hostility", it's also fanatically devoted to the God-Emperor and his divine sons. A Primarch or one of the Ten Thousand come knocking? You're going to be on your knees before you even know what they came to ask.
That's why the Primaris were accepted. The Imperium was in shreds, a literal divine being was asking, and the Primaris themselves were actually impressive.
Badab War was an interesting conflict and it would be even more interesting to have a major conflict between IoM worlds in which there is no true good or bad side but a conflict of ideologies, survival, and circumstance. Again a means to muddy the waters and tell more interesting stories than just "the hero marines/humans fight valiantly against the dangerous chaos/xenos threat".
And you don't need a civil war to show that "there's no good or bad side" - that's just lazy. It reeks of "how can we show the conflict between these idealogies? Let's make them punch eachother!" which just feels dull.
Want to show the conflict? Have the characters actually talk about it. Argue between themselves. Show that Guilliman is needing to compromise on his own values, and then reveal that his many compromises have made him just as bad as the Emperor he sought to be better than. Have some Primaris Marines refuse to aid one of the more savage Chapters (Marines Malevolent), and then due to their refusal to aid them, lose a whole warzone because they expected better from the other Space Marines.
Conflict can be shown in more than civil wars and punching brawls.
@Smudge (Don't feel like editing quote boxes on a phone).
Your right in that GW has been shifting things that way for a while. Its just the combination of the IoM having some hope and them playing up Primaris as the fix to a problem (IoM still has massive problems so its not rainbows and sunshine) is moving things away from grimdark more. Its not a binary thing but a shift in the scales towards less hopelessness which is something that I believe is done to draw in a younger crowd.
When you put it that way (about all the higher ups accepting this change) it does makes some sense but it also highlights just how terribly done the fluff is on the subject. Cawl is very hand wavy and way to influential for a character that never existed before and yet turns the entire setting upside down while weakening a lot of the themes of the setting. Its sloppy writing damaging the strongest aspect of 40k which is its setting (and this isn't bad writing that can be ignored like something made by C.S. Goto for example).
You say that a civil war is lazy but armed conflicts between sides is the bread and butter of how humanity has acted throughout history. I would say that "talking about it" is weak because what happens is you get some grumbling but ultimately everyone falls in line and bands together because the big bad threat makes them see past their differences and realize they are on the same team. If there was more to it like active resistance to these changes and political intrigue (the Inq should be having a gak fit) then maybe but for the most part it comes down to Papa Gman telling the chapters to take their Primaris supplements and some chapters might pout but they ultimately accept them even if they don't like it. You don't have meaningful conflict between ideologies if the side that objects just rolls over. That being said this is 40k and part of the zogging tag line is "Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war"
Again the major fluff hang up I have about Primaris is that GW wrote the plot to fit the goal of having Primaris replace old marines (firstborn is what they call them now?) using some very lazy and destination serving events to make this "fit". It damages some of the themes of 40k and IMO weakens the franchise as a whole. This is a front and center change so its not something that can be ignored. Ultimately though its a change made for marketing purposes to create a new line of Space Marines that gives new products to sell (fair enough) and also eventually invalidate the old line of marines (anti consumer forced obsolescence).
As someone who started around the end of RT and start of 2nd, I like Primaris, but there are certain elements that I find regretful in how they've rolled out.
The first is that it would have been much cooler to have the fluff be more like experienced marines get to go through this new genetic process, but it's so new and rare that only the most battle hardened marines get it. Which, is kind of the Rubicon, but I just wish that was "how babby made" rather than the superior baby marines from the tanks in mars. It just undermines any cool sort of sense of progression and replaces it with, well, a sense of replacement which causes lots of unease. Everyone loves their favorite character getting new hotness in wargear and cooler sculpts, not everyone likes their favorite character getting Old Yeller'ed.
The second part is the lack of compatibility (you can't tell me at least LRs could carry one primaris per teminator...) coupled with the lack of options. Clearly the Impulsor is the new Rhino, which is fine, but A) it's not even out yet and B) we're left to "guess" why it has an el-camino bed that's perfectly square where one might stick say a whirlwind missile launcher looking thing, or a predatorish turret, or an AAA gun, etc.
It's a fact of life that models get refreshed and replaced, but this seems a bit more secretive and it's needless and causing rampant speculation.
Read the fluff on The Awoken, The Indoctrinated, and the Ascended. It's in the fricking Codex, there's no excuse to pretend that it's hard to find.
The Awoken weren't "grown on Mars" ala the Star Wars Clone Troopers. They're full on living frigging relics of history, Marines from the Great Crusade/Heresy era that are literally awoken from stasis to come forth now.
Kanluwen wrote: Read the fluff on The Awoken, The Indoctrinated, and the Ascended. It's in the fricking Codex, there's no excuse to pretend that it's hard to find.
The Awoken weren't "grown on Mars" ala the Star Wars Clone Troopers. They're full on living frigging relics of history, Marines from the Great Crusade/Heresy era that are literally awoken from stasis to come forth now.
Yeah, it's pretty clear where they all come from. I like the awoken, more badass crusade marines kick ass.
Kanluwen wrote: Read the fluff on The Awoken, The Indoctrinated, and the Ascended. It's in the fricking Codex, there's no excuse to pretend that it's hard to find.
The Awoken weren't "grown on Mars" ala the Star Wars Clone Troopers. They're full on living frigging relics of history, Marines from the Great Crusade/Heresy era that are literally awoken from stasis to come forth now.
yeah the bit about being grown in tubes is a sign someone hasn't been willing to correct misconceptions from our first look at Primaris, when we saw a buncha tubes, some people assumed "Kaminio clone army" where it turned out that it was actually just stasis tubes. The more we learn about Primaris, the less objectionable they are. BTW anyone read the new novel about Cawl yet? any intreasting new lore insights?
I do think that the Primaris fluff is kinda awkward, but it is still super tiresome to listen complaints by people whose knowledge of the lore seem to be solely based on their misconceptions about a trailer shown years ago.
Crimson wrote: I do think that the Primaris fluff is kinda awkward, but it is still super tiresome to listen complaints by people whose knowledge of the lore seem to be solely based on their misconceptions about a trailer shown years ago.
Or just hearsay from other people that also don't know the fluff. I'm not big on fluff, I got the cliff notes. I'm more into painting and collecting while playing when I can. But I'm not trying to win arguments with my cliff notes. Maybe with all this money GW is making they can commission Stephen King to write a couple novels
Isn't Stephen King the guy that writes those horrible horror books? Wouldn't it be better to hire some really good sci fi writer, or someone who can build interesting world?
I mean if GW took Stephen King, they may as well hire people writing for the historical harlequin line of books. those sell very good.
Crimson wrote: I do think that the Primaris fluff is kinda awkward, but it is still super tiresome to listen complaints by people whose knowledge of the lore seem to be solely based on their misconceptions about a trailer shown years ago.
Or just hearsay from other people that also don't know the fluff. I'm not big on fluff, I got the cliff notes. I'm more into painting and collecting while playing when I can. But I'm not trying to win arguments with my cliff notes. Maybe with all this money GW is making they can commission Stephen King to write a couple novels
What would be the point if people can't even read three paragraphs in the Codex?
And it's not like we haven't had plenty of novels already that expand on Primaris. there's some awkwardness and some holes yes but I expect those will be filled over time.
Stephen King also wrote the Dark Tower series, Shawshank, Green Mile, etc. He's kind of a "jack of all trades" writer who's just remembered for his horror books because when he was writing those, there was a big horror renaissance going on in the media.
Edit: he also wrote The Stand, which is basically modern Grim-Dark.
flandarz wrote: Stephen King also wrote the Dark Tower series, Shawshank, Green Mile, etc. He's kind of a "jack of all trades" writer who's just remembered for his horror books because when he was writing those, there was a big horror renaissance going on in the media.
Edit: he also wrote The Stand, which is basically modern Grim-Dark.
Now, if GW hired King, do you think they’d be able to convince him to drug up again? That was how IT was written, after all.
How about Karen Travis she could write a horriable series of stories about a mary sue and her space Marine lvoer who was horrificly recruited to the Marines and made to be a soldier and how aweful the Imperium is for doing that with Marines.
Kanluwen wrote: Read the fluff on The Awoken, The Indoctrinated, and the Ascended. It's in the fricking Codex, there's no excuse to pretend that it's hard to find.
The Awoken weren't "grown on Mars" ala the Star Wars Clone Troopers. They're full on living frigging relics of history, Marines from the Great Crusade/Heresy era that are literally awoken from stasis to come forth now.
What's the whole thing with that Imp Fists captain talking about primaris not serving in scout companies yadda yadda don't trust them? Is that the indoctrinated group of them?
IDK I've read conflicting things that are allegedly fluff (and fair enough listened to many because I don't really read the novels but sometimes transition YouTube videos have lore snippets from them.
Kanluwen wrote: Read the fluff on The Awoken, The Indoctrinated, and the Ascended. It's in the fricking Codex, there's no excuse to pretend that it's hard to find.
The Awoken weren't "grown on Mars" ala the Star Wars Clone Troopers. They're full on living frigging relics of history, Marines from the Great Crusade/Heresy era that are literally awoken from stasis to come forth now.
What's the whole thing with that Imp Fists captain talking about primaris not serving in scout companies yadda yadda don't trust them? Is that the indoctrinated group of them?
IDK I've read conflicting things that are allegedly fluff (and fair enough listened to many because I don't really read the novels but sometimes transition YouTube videos have lore snippets from them.
"The Indoctrinated" are the new batches of Marines, who are literally being brought in as Primaris.
They're still serving in Scout Companies until they get the Primaris treatments, same as it was before with Marines.
Yeah, no idea what's going on with that Imperial Fist. As we see with the story of Brother Pollandus, he starts as a Scout, is implanted with Primaris upgrades - therefore, even all-Primaris Chapters seem to have Scouts.
My 2 cents on the topic:
I would be completely fine with Primaris if they had the same base stats as old marines (or vice versa, though I would prefer 2W 2A base for all marines, with grey knights and veterans getting 3A etc..). Anyway, the way I see it, old and new should be similar enough that the enhancements simply don't affect in-game stats (similar to how phobos and tacticus armors have the same save). More importantly, if the oldies do get squatted, then I would like them to go out with some umph and I'd hate for Chaos to have inferior marines in the long run. (plus, chaos marines are very nearly as tall as primaris sooo...)
My other gripes are largely aesthetic, and so don't really matter.
Crimson wrote: I do think that the Primaris fluff is kinda awkward, but it is still super tiresome to listen complaints by people whose knowledge of the lore seem to be solely based on their misconceptions about a trailer shown years ago.
Or just hearsay from other people that also don't know the fluff. I'm not big on fluff, I got the cliff notes. I'm more into painting and collecting while playing when I can. But I'm not trying to win arguments with my cliff notes. Maybe with all this money GW is making they can commission Stephen King to write a couple novels
What would be the point if people can't even read three paragraphs in the Codex?
That's a fair point
Another thing is that regardless of the Primaris fluff being good or bad it is absolutely not the first time something bad has been written and it seems like right after the gathering storm everything before is taken as gospel now.
Kanluwen wrote: Read the fluff on The Awoken, The Indoctrinated, and the Ascended. It's in the fricking Codex, there's no excuse to pretend that it's hard to find.
The Awoken weren't "grown on Mars" ala the Star Wars Clone Troopers. They're full on living frigging relics of history, Marines from the Great Crusade/Heresy era that are literally awoken from stasis to come forth now.
yeah the bit about being grown in tubes is a sign someone hasn't been willing to correct misconceptions from our first look at Primaris, when we saw a buncha tubes, some people assumed "Kaminio clone army" where it turned out that it was actually just stasis tubes. The more we learn about Primaris, the less objectionable they are. BTW anyone read the new novel about Cawl yet? any intreasting new lore insights?
Regarding Cawl, he gets a mention in one of the 30k books, and otherwise just that last novel with Roboute.
I love the implications of how much Cawl breaks the rules, especially with not knowing WHAT Cawl Inferior is.
Kanluwen wrote: Read the fluff on The Awoken, The Indoctrinated, and the Ascended. It's in the fricking Codex, there's no excuse to pretend that it's hard to find.
The Awoken weren't "grown on Mars" ala the Star Wars Clone Troopers. They're full on living frigging relics of history, Marines from the Great Crusade/Heresy era that are literally awoken from stasis to come forth now.
yeah the bit about being grown in tubes is a sign someone hasn't been willing to correct misconceptions from our first look at Primaris, when we saw a buncha tubes, some people assumed "Kaminio clone army" where it turned out that it was actually just stasis tubes. The more we learn about Primaris, the less objectionable they are. BTW anyone read the new novel about Cawl yet? any intreasting new lore insights?
Regarding Cawl, he gets a mention in one of the 30k books, and otherwise just that last novel with Roboute.
I love the implications of how much Cawl breaks the rules, especially with not knowing WHAT Cawl Inferior is.
actually a new novel came out about Cawl just now,. it's by Guy Haley whose written the HH story Cawl appered in as well as dark Imperium, Haley seems to be making Cawl "his" character, which ensures constant characterizatrion
Kanluwen wrote: Read the fluff on The Awoken, The Indoctrinated, and the Ascended. It's in the fricking Codex, there's no excuse to pretend that it's hard to find.
The Awoken weren't "grown on Mars" ala the Star Wars Clone Troopers. They're full on living frigging relics of history, Marines from the Great Crusade/Heresy era that are literally awoken from stasis to come forth now.
yeah the bit about being grown in tubes is a sign someone hasn't been willing to correct misconceptions from our first look at Primaris, when we saw a buncha tubes, some people assumed "Kaminio clone army" where it turned out that it was actually just stasis tubes. The more we learn about Primaris, the less objectionable they are. BTW anyone read the new novel about Cawl yet? any intreasting new lore insights?
Regarding Cawl, he gets a mention in one of the 30k books, and otherwise just that last novel with Roboute.
I love the implications of how much Cawl breaks the rules, especially with not knowing WHAT Cawl Inferior is.
actually a new novel came out about Cawl just now,. it's by Guy Haley whose written the HH story Cawl appered in as well as dark Imperium, Haley seems to be making Cawl "his" character, which ensures constant characterizatrion
Oh do tell and put spoilers up for those who care!
Kanluwen wrote: Read the fluff on The Awoken, The Indoctrinated, and the Ascended. It's in the fricking Codex, there's no excuse to pretend that it's hard to find.
The Awoken weren't "grown on Mars" ala the Star Wars Clone Troopers. They're full on living frigging relics of history, Marines from the Great Crusade/Heresy era that are literally awoken from stasis to come forth now.
yeah the bit about being grown in tubes is a sign someone hasn't been willing to correct misconceptions from our first look at Primaris, when we saw a buncha tubes, some people assumed "Kaminio clone army" where it turned out that it was actually just stasis tubes. The more we learn about Primaris, the less objectionable they are. BTW anyone read the new novel about Cawl yet? any intreasting new lore insights?
Regarding Cawl, he gets a mention in one of the 30k books, and otherwise just that last novel with Roboute.
I love the implications of how much Cawl breaks the rules, especially with not knowing WHAT Cawl Inferior is.
actually a new novel came out about Cawl just now,. it's by Guy Haley whose written the HH story Cawl appered in as well as dark Imperium, Haley seems to be making Cawl "his" character, which ensures constant characterizatrion
Oh do tell and put spoilers up for those who care!
afraid I've not read it myself yet. I've often thought it suprising that the 40k lore subforum doesn't have a "revelations from the latest novel" thread everytime a new novel comes out
Kanluwen wrote: Read the fluff on The Awoken, The Indoctrinated, and the Ascended. It's in the fricking Codex, there's no excuse to pretend that it's hard to find.
The Awoken weren't "grown on Mars" ala the Star Wars Clone Troopers. They're full on living frigging relics of history, Marines from the Great Crusade/Heresy era that are literally awoken from stasis to come forth now.
What's the whole thing with that Imp Fists captain talking about primaris not serving in scout companies yadda yadda don't trust them? Is that the indoctrinated group of them?
IDK I've read conflicting things that are allegedly fluff (and fair enough listened to many because I don't really read the novels but sometimes transition YouTube videos have lore snippets from them.
"The Indoctrinated" are the new batches of Marines, who are literally being brought in as Primaris.
They're still serving in Scout Companies until they get the Primaris treatments, same as it was before with Marines.
Ok then maybe my SM codex is a misprint, there's absolutely no mention of the "awoken" being anything but indoctrinated new primaris with no experience. I guess I'm just missing where some of these guys are actual HH marines and hardened combat veterans.
Kanluwen wrote: Read the fluff on The Awoken, The Indoctrinated, and the Ascended. It's in the fricking Codex, there's no excuse to pretend that it's hard to find.
The Awoken weren't "grown on Mars" ala the Star Wars Clone Troopers. They're full on living frigging relics of history, Marines from the Great Crusade/Heresy era that are literally awoken from stasis to come forth now.
What's the whole thing with that Imp Fists captain talking about primaris not serving in scout companies yadda yadda don't trust them? Is that the indoctrinated group of them?
IDK I've read conflicting things that are allegedly fluff (and fair enough listened to many because I don't really read the novels but sometimes transition YouTube videos have lore snippets from them.
"The Indoctrinated" are the new batches of Marines, who are literally being brought in as Primaris.
They're still serving in Scout Companies until they get the Primaris treatments, same as it was before with Marines.
Ok then maybe my SM codex is a misprint, there's absolutely no mention of the "awoken" being anything but indoctrinated new primaris with no experience. I guess I'm just missing where some of these guys are actual HH marines and hardened combat veterans.
“The Awoken” is an expansion on the lore introduced in the first 8th edition Spaces Marines codex. Within, on page 21, section “The Indomitus Crusade,” subsection “Seeds of Hope:”
Spoiler:
After the fighting was done, the Crimson Fists marvelled at the return of Roboute Guilliman, but were even more grateful for the arrival of Primaris Space Marines bearing their own heraldry. Here were warriors whose genetic composition was closer to their own Primarch, Rogal Dorn, than had ever before existed. For his raw material, Cawl had selected warriors of Terra, and had taken them only a few generations after the original Imperial Fists had been created by the Emperor. Indeed, some had been held in stasis since the days of the Great Crusade; a few of the Primaris Space Marines could recall having seen Rogal Dorn himself. Again and again the crusaders watched the same tale unfold. When those of the Ultima Founding were brought before their Chapters, it was like a meeting of brothers separated at birth.
Flak wrote: Ok then maybe my SM codex is a misprint, there's absolutely no mention of the "awoken" being anything but indoctrinated new primaris with no experience. I guess I'm just missing where some of these guys are actual HH marines and hardened combat veterans.
They're not necessarily HH "veterans", like I don't think they ever fought in the Legions, but they were all Legion recruits. They had all the same standards of training that a baseline Legionary would have, just put in stasis before they saw combat. As a result, they're trained to the same standard I imagine any 30k Legionary would be, so are hardly a slouch.
However, what's important to remember is that this was just one generation of Primaris, the first ones. Every new Primaris Marine since the Indomitus Crusade is now either Indoctrinated (a normal Space Marine recruit just with Primaris enhancements) or an Ascended (an old Marine given the enhancement). Any Awoken Primaris will be the last of their kind, and so judging the entire Primaris army on the Awoken alone is a dangerous oversimplification.
yeah it's pretty clear to me that the awoken wheren't old time legionares but folks accepted into the legions who where transfered to what amounted to a black projects division.
After the fighting was done, the Crimson Fists marvelled at the return of Roboute Guilliman, but were even more grateful for the arrival of Primaris Space Marines bearing their own heraldry. Here were warriors whose genetic composition was closer to their own Primarch, Rogal Dorn, than had ever before existed. For his raw material, Cawl had selected warriors of Terra, and had taken them only a few generations after the original Imperial Fists had been created by the Emperor. Indeed, some had been held in stasis since the days of the Great Crusade; a few of the Primaris Space Marines could recall having seen Rogal Dorn himself. Again and again the crusaders watched the same tale unfold. When those of the Ultima Founding were brought before their Chapters, it was like a meeting of brothers separated at birth.
That seems a little odd, given that the Horus Heresy novels made such a big thing of the division in many legions between the terrans and the later 'true' legionaries. This goes back to what someone referred to earlier - it doesn't feel 'right' that the Primaris additions would have been received with open arms by their Chapters. Everything we've been shown previously suggests that they would have at best been viewed with suspicion and barely tolerated until they could prove themselves, and at worst (particularly for those Chapters with a little less regard for Guilliman, like the Space Wolves or Dark Angels) would have been flat out rejected.
Obviously, it's GW's story, and they can advance it however they choose - but it's discrepancies like this that make it harder to accept them. It would have made more sense for the ready-made Terran Primaris to have been confined to the Ultramarines, where Guilliman could personally oversee their integration and smooth things over where necessary, while sending out tech-adepts to other Chapters to show them how to improve their conversion processes on their own recruits. Some Chapters would still have resisted, and discrepancies would likely have crept in, but the end result would have actually belonged to the Chapter. That latter bit seems to be where they're heading long term, but it would have fit better without the initial 'You get new Marines! And you get new Marines!'
After the fighting was done, the Crimson Fists marvelled at the return of Roboute Guilliman, but were even more grateful for the arrival of Primaris Space Marines bearing their own heraldry. Here were warriors whose genetic composition was closer to their own Primarch, Rogal Dorn, than had ever before existed. For his raw material, Cawl had selected warriors of Terra, and had taken them only a few generations after the original Imperial Fists had been created by the Emperor. Indeed, some had been held in stasis since the days of the Great Crusade; a few of the Primaris Space Marines could recall having seen Rogal Dorn himself. Again and again the crusaders watched the same tale unfold. When those of the Ultima Founding were brought before their Chapters, it was like a meeting of brothers separated at birth.
That seems a little odd, given that the Horus Heresy novels made such a big thing of the division in many legions between the terrans and the later 'true' legionaries. This goes back to what someone referred to earlier - it doesn't feel 'right' that the Primaris additions would have been received with open arms by their Chapters. Everything we've been shown previously suggests that they would have at best been viewed with suspicion and barely tolerated until they could prove themselves, and at worst (particularly for those Chapters with a little less regard for Guilliman, like the Space Wolves or Dark Angels) would have been flat out rejected.
Obviously, it's GW's story, and they can advance it however they choose - but it's discrepancies like this that make it harder to accept them. It would have made more sense for the ready-made Terran Primaris to have been confined to the Ultramarines, where Guilliman could personally oversee their integration and smooth things over where necessary, while sending out tech-adepts to other Chapters to show them how to improve their conversion processes on their own recruits. Some Chapters would still have resisted, and discrepancies would likely have crept in, but the end result would have actually belonged to the Chapter. That latter bit seems to be where they're heading long term, but it would have fit better without the initial 'You get new Marines! And you get new Marines!'
Just IMO.
Remember, there was only one generation of Terran Primaris, unlike the already formed legions meeting the new guys that were the Primarchs’ friends. They were it. The rest are made by each chapter from their recruiting pools. This was also in a disastrous time in which many chapters could not afford to reject Primaris marines, as it was pretty much the modern Imperium’s darkest hour, losing worlds on all fronts.
Many Primaris were met with suspicion. I believe that was decently established in the Space Wolves codex with segregated fighting forces. The Dark Angels in the short time after Primaris were introduced didn’t trust them either, as established in Vigilus Defiant. They “promoted” a Primaris marine into one of their upper circles without actually telling him anything so they could appear all good and well for the Ultramarines, however, Calgar saw through the ruse. It is only in more recent times that the Dark Angels are becoming more welcoming of the Indoctrinated (non-Terran marines).
You say discrepancies, however, I think it may be a more lack of knowledge of how the lore is being advanced on your part.
The whole frozen martian primaris angle was a mistake. That was people's introduction to the concept, and it wasn't a good one. It felt very much like 'hey. here are these outsiders coming to replace the marines you like.' They should have just started with the primaris being new tech handed out to the chapters. (The technology having been gained via Cursed Founding and other such experiments.)
You say discrepancies, however, I think it may be a more lack of knowledge of how the lore is being advanced on your part.
Quite possibly... I stopped buying codexes in 6th edition, and as I mentioned earlier had no interest in reading the novels past Dark Imperium.
But, ultimately, later fluff advancements don't change the initial introduction, which is what made people uncomfortable. If that later advancement had been the initial angle, it might have gone a little more smoothly.
jeff white wrote: No. They are not accepted.
They are heresy, and as Insaniak notes,
their entry and origin remain barriers to acceptance.
While I won't dispute how their initial data could lead to a bad impression, that's simply not accurate right now.
Secondly, I don't understand how they can be considered "heretical", when they were created under command of one of the Emperor's own sons (massively respected), who was being endorsed by the Custodes (even more respected), by someone who was literally a personal acquaintance of the Emperor himself and was told by the Emperor* "You will do something that many people will consider wrong. You are not."
From both an in and out of universe perspective, what Cawl is doing is not heretical.
*paraphrasing from the latest Cawl novel, 'The Great Work" - if you want, I'll try and track down the actual quote.
The rapidity with which Primaris have almost exclusively replaced regular marines in so many modeling blogs and social media suggests otherwise.
For every old grognard (myself included) grumpy about the scale creep or the shoehorned Mary-Sueness of them, there's a swarm of people who just see the really pretty models.
The rapidity with which Primaris have almost exclusively replaced regular marines in so many modeling blogs and social media suggests otherwise.
For every old grognard (myself included) grumpy about the scale creep or the shoehorned Mary-Sueness of them, there's a swarm of people who just see the really pretty models.
Well obviously. They're amazing models and ultimately that is the most important thing. I will much rather have great models with bad fluff than bad models with great fluff. Coming up with my own headcanon is far easier than sculpting my own models from scratch after all!
Alcibiades wrote: I like them. They play very differently. They're not "marines +".
same here. I think they complement Astartes perfectly. most of my lists end up being 60/40 Primaris/Astartes or 40/60 Primaris/Astartes and they never disappoint. A razorback full of tactical helps provide "cheap" support for an Intercessor Veteran squad. same thing goes for devs & hellblasters.
I mean a lot of social media press can be done with GWs influence and finger on the scale for primaris. As well new entrants will see primaris as the real marines. I would interested to see how well they'd be doing without the PR arm of GW now.
Oh well, I'm neither really for or against them. If they ever squat my old marines, I'm going very much whole hog against them however. I never need to buy a single model from GW at this point, if they disregard all my time and money spent, they will burn me as a customer. So long as they keep the old marines in the loop and have Primaris as an addition to marines, that's all good with me. Even if their intro fluff was awful and I still don't like many of the uses for primaris marines who feel dull even if they deliver.
I just like my options and most primaris drops lack options and it's more whole squads of the same things, feels bad.
At this point my only complaint about Primaris marines is transport segregation, and in my case it's mostly annoyance at First Born not being able to ride in Repulsors and Impulsors rather than Primaris not being able to ride in Rhinos/Razorbacks/Land Raiders.
Stormravens are the big exception, but that's more of an aesthetic thing since they act like ground support choppers on the table and that fits well with how Primaris feel like they ought to work.
I've basically stopped buying First Born units at this point though; I'm still fielding the units that have no Primaris equivalents but I suspect strongly that eventually only Scouts will still have a role as "cheap" troop alternatives when points are really tight.
jeff white wrote: No. They are not accepted.
They are heresy, and as Insaniak notes,
their entry and origin remain barriers to acceptance.
While I won't dispute how their initial data could lead to a bad impression, that's simply not accurate right now.
Secondly, I don't understand how they can be considered "heretical", when they were created under command of one of the Emperor's own sons (massively respected), who was being endorsed by the Custodes (even more respected), by someone who was literally a personal acquaintance of the Emperor himself and was told by the Emperor* "You will do something that many people will consider wrong. You are not."
From both an in and out of universe perspective, what Cawl is doing is not heretical.
*paraphrasing from the latest Cawl novel, 'The Great Work" - if you want, I'll try and track down the actual quote.
In universe it's really only justified by the Custodes who spent 10k years sitting on their asses, a Primarch most of whom were traitors anyway and there is no way to actually verify Cawl was told to do anything. From an in universe perspective there's nothing proving that Cawl is just lying and is a rogue Adept. We know Cawl is loyal out of universe because we have novels and such telling us his thoughts and intentions when he does questionable things. For example Cawl swore allegiance to Horus but we know that was just to avoid being shot in the face whereas in universe that's pretty damning.
I find inventing a super secret tech priest who was mates with Big E and made a bajillion even moar supa space marines and has been in hiding for 10,000 years and never revealed his newboys in any of the rest of the Imperium's many existential crises to be essentially bad fanfic. But considering 40k background has been bad fanfic for quite a long time now, I think it is healthier to stop paying attention to the new stuff and focus on what makes me happy in my hobby. The oldmarines will disappear, so people should stock up if they want them. The newboys have some nice sculpts but as a range they are not there yet for me. Give it time and they will get there. I have been playing since 2nd edition, and have seen this sort of thing plenty of times. The newboys will be accepted, it is inevitable.
pm713 wrote:In universe it's really only justified by the Custodes who spent 10k years sitting on their asses,
But are still massively respected and obeyed by nearly every strata of the Imperium. They're the closest thing to the Emperor's own will. You don't brush off a Custodes.
a Primarch most of whom were traitors anyway
Not that the majority of people know, and even if over half were traitorous, implying that the 9 Loyal Sons shouldn't be obeyed because of their brothers genuinely IS heretical. They are key members of the Imperial Pantheon - literally living demi-gods. They commanded supreme respect even when there were 20 of them and the Imperial Cult didn't exist. Nowadays? They'd be even more venerated.
and there is no way to actually verify Cawl was told to do anything.
Custodes and Guilliman. If they said that Cawl was acting under their orders (and I seriously doubt that Cawl wouldn't have some kind of warrant to show Guilliman's favour), who's going to be the one who disagrees with the Emperor's chosen servants?
From an in universe perspective there's nothing proving that Cawl is just lying and is a rogue Adept.
Except Guilliman and the Custodes' endorsement of him. And as asserted earlier, I cannot imagine anyone during the cataclysm of the Great Rift's opening refuse Guilliman or the Custodes' edicts.
We know Cawl is loyal out of universe because we have novels and such telling us his thoughts and intentions when he does questionable things. For example Cawl swore allegiance to Horus but we know that was just to avoid being shot in the face whereas in universe that's pretty damning.
And who knows Cawl swore allegiance to Horus in-universe? No-one who's around in M41, as far as I'm aware.
You can't just pick and choose what people know in-universe and what they don't.
But Space Marines exist outside most of the Imperium's organisation. They aren't nearly as servile to the Custodes as others and they have much more freedom of thought.
Again Space Marines know more about the Primarch's than other people do. They know that they exist, that some went traitor and it's not a stretch that one of them coming back could be a Chaos/Eldar/Other plot.
You don't need to openly refuse anything. The Galaxy is big and the Imperium is very slow to notice anything even with Guilliman, You can't take the Primaris Guilliman gave out and eject them from an airlock but you can but them in the more dangerous battles and be slow as you like introducing them. People wandering around with Cawl/Guillimans stamp of approval can't monitor everyone.
pm713 wrote: But Space Marines exist outside most of the Imperium's organisation. They aren't nearly as servile to the Custodes as others and they have much more freedom of thought.
But they still know better than to go against them, the literal messengers of the Emperor.
The Space Wolves nearly bit off more than they could chew against a rather disliked Inquisitor. The Celestial Lions were nearly wiped out fully because they weren't fond of an Inquisitor, and Inquisitors don't have as much authority as a Custodes when it comes to enforcing the Emperor's will.
Yeah, Marines have "more" autonomy than most Imperial agencies, but even those kowtow to the Custodes.
Again Space Marines know more about the Primarch's than other people do. They know that they exist, that some went traitor and it's not a stretch that one of them coming back could be a Chaos/Eldar/Other plot.
Perhaps, but when Guilliman is pretty widely respected across nearly every aspect of Imperial life (the only more known Primarch is probably Sanguinius himself!), personally endorsed by the Custodes (who were far more aloof of any Primarch than even the most skeptical of Astartes) and a literal Living Saint of the Emperor himself, and is pretty spotless as it goes by nearly all records, I don't think I can really imagine him being suspected of heresy.
You don't need to openly refuse anything. The Galaxy is big and the Imperium is very slow to notice anything even with Guilliman, You can't take the Primaris Guilliman gave out and eject them from an airlock but you can but them in the more dangerous battles and be slow as you like introducing them. People wandering around with Cawl/Guillimans stamp of approval can't monitor everyone.
Oh, absolutely. But these are in the vast minority, and as we've seen, the Custodes don't take no for an answer.
Primaris might not be loved by everyone, but they are accepted on a basic level by the vast vast majority.
Smudge, you're arguing about whether it makes sense as presented. It can do that and still be terrible writing. Deus ex machina Primarch returning, an immortal super-tech priest and his secret frozen super marines being invented out of thin air, these two and the Custodes forcing the Marine chapters to accept the Primaris, sometimes at gun point is just gak narrative. It really is no wonder that there was initially a strong negative reaction to the Primaris, and that it still lingers to this day.
Now, I personally love the Primaris models, and I'm not gonna let the bad fluff to affect my enjoyment of them, but that doesn't change the fact that the introduction was botched.
jeff white wrote: No. They are not accepted.
They are heresy, and as Insaniak notes,
their entry and origin remain barriers to acceptance.
While I won't dispute how their initial data could lead to a bad impression, that's simply not accurate right now.
Secondly, I don't understand how they can be considered "heretical", when they were created under command of one of the Emperor's own sons (massively respected), who was being endorsed by the Custodes (even more respected), by someone who was literally a personal acquaintance of the Emperor himself and was told by the Emperor* "You will do something that many people will consider wrong. You are not."
From both an in and out of universe perspective, what Cawl is doing is not heretical.
*paraphrasing from the latest Cawl novel, 'The Great Work" - if you want, I'll try and track down the actual quote.
In universe it's really only justified by the Custodes who spent 10k years sitting on their asses, a Primarch most of whom were traitors anyway and there is no way to actually verify Cawl was told to do anything. From an in universe perspective there's nothing proving that Cawl is just lying and is a rogue Adept. We know Cawl is loyal out of universe because we have novels and such telling us his thoughts and intentions when he does questionable things. For example Cawl swore allegiance to Horus but we know that was just to avoid being shot in the face whereas in universe that's pretty damning.
Addressed in the Cawl novel. He was investigated throughly, Turns out that the Skitarii he freed al came out and vouched for his loyalty including one whom had become a war hero due to the battle
So, the witnesses to his character are a bunch of mind slaved near servitors freed to answer honestly ? I mean I'd obviously believe everything they say, nothing off putting about it at all.
They have a Horus Heresy book series- they could have done a ton of foreshadowing of the geneseed being sequestered, legion recruits sent to mars and never returning, fething characters whose story abruptly ends on a ship with the techpriests.
They could have alluded to someone other than Fabulous Bill continuing Corax' research into the Raptor project.
They could have had Fist/Ultra relations strained when the Fists are fighting on Mars only to discover Ultramarine vox traffic- and several guardian companies defending the entrance to a massive vault, not participating in any of the Solar conflict.
Hinting or foreshadowing any of this would have made it feel like something planned rather than pulled from powerarmour wasteport.
In addition we could have had OG Heresy characters continuing their stories in 40k, meeting modern counterparts, remembering the Primarchs.
Crimson wrote:Smudge, you're arguing about whether it makes sense as presented. It can do that and still be terrible writing. Deus ex machina Primarch returning, an immortal super-tech priest and his secret frozen super marines being invented out of thin air, these two and the Custodes forcing the Marine chapters to accept the Primaris, sometimes at gun point is just gak narrative. It really is no wonder that there was initially a strong negative reaction to the Primaris, and that it still lingers to this day.
Now, I personally love the Primaris models, and I'm not gonna let the bad fluff to affect my enjoyment of them, but that doesn't change the fact that the introduction was botched.
I'm not arguing if it was presented well, or if people are supposed to accept them OOC. If you or anyone else felt that their initial launch was botched, that's cool, that's your opinion.
What I am arguing is their presentation and depiction in-universe. People claiming that "oh, they shouldn't be accepted like how they have been" or "guilliman and cawl are HERETICS!!" simply show a rather reductive view of the setting and both play down the religious significance of the Primarchs and Custodes while playing up the 'reactionary against progress' aspect. Again, 40k is a great setting in how you can choose to focus on or play down what you like, but making a claim like the above ones doesn't hold up for everyone's interpretation of the setting.
So no, I'm not saying if what GW did to implement them was good or bad, but I am saying that if you're going to use in-universe reasons for "they should be heretics!", maybe reconsider the situation in-universe.
I have two main gripes with primaris lore, (the models are pretty good looking in my view outside of GW really trimming unit options).
One was during their initial debut GW went with no forshadowing at all. Cawl shows up during the Fall of Cadia with no previous mention and suddenly is the only tech priest at the center of essentially everything. I actually like Cawl's characterization and especially love the some what complicated relationship that he and Bobby G have.
Having said that Cawl should have been mentioned a long time ago and as other posters have pointed out a lot more of his experiments should have appeared in the HH or War of the Beast novels before GW pulled the primaris trigger. It's like the marketing depart decided to make a major change to the main line and forgot to tell the writers until a month before the deadline.
My main ongoing issue with them is they just don't add much to the setting background wise and essentially rebooting the entire marine line has left a lot of other armies and factions that either need better rules or new/updated models at the back of the line.
The rapidity with which Primaris have almost exclusively replaced regular marines in so many modeling blogs and social media suggests otherwise.
For every old grognard (myself included) grumpy about the scale creep or the shoehorned Mary-Sueness of them, there's a swarm of people who just see the really pretty models.
Where can one see evidence of this, i would have though it a bit hard to judge on a large scale?
Obviously there is going to be a lot of primaris about with them getting new models at the moment, as this kind of media does bias bit a bit towards new releases.
On the hashtags i follow on instagram, and other media, the marine content seems to be equally split between classic and primaris though, i'm not seeing evidence to suggest otherwise.
I know a lot of these blurbs about the more recent stories are extremely condensed summaries but it all sounds like stuff written to backfill the hole they dug for themselves with the Gathering Storm + launch of 8th. Perhaps it's me being biased but it comes across as GW doing a form of damage control for the flimsy premise they made for themselves.
I can only speak for myself, but I vastly prefer Primaris to the old marines who have been plagued by their outdated scale for quite some time. The fact that their new profiles also represent more accurately what a Space Marine should perform like on the battlefield, is just the cherry on top.
Admittedly, some Primaris units do have a goofy design and I'm not a fan of Gravis Armor, Inceptors and Suppressors, but the standard troops and characters do look great, which is basically the first condition for me to gain interest in any given army.
At this point, I couldn't justify buying non-primaris marines anymore, because they just look silly in comparison. As for the lore part of the argument, I'm not particularly invested in it, so I don't take it into consideration. If the Primaris lore is implemented badly, however, I can totally see how it could be a dealbreaker for some people.
I have a very visual approach to the hobby, so miniatures come first for me, and I believe GW has done a lot of things right with the Primaris range.
In a nutshell my answer is to build another new army where Primaris are kept exclusively.
The scale is correct to the fluff.
They have a better look to them in proportion I think.
They seem to focus on the proper squads fielded together rather than the weapon mixture inside the squad being the key item.
I have finally succumbed to making an Ultramarine army out of the big guys and look forward to fielding them alongside my Black Templar short guys: the contrast would look nice I think by keeping them so distinct.
An alternative is the unholy mix of models like with Deathwatch, entire squads of each type looks and behaves rather interesting.
I feel the Primaris models will be embraced as more variety is available, I feel they are on the cusp of being a full effective army without the "old" model range.
They still need to address tech-marines, (more) character models, artillery, light attack bikes/skimmers, heavier man-portable weapons, more mobile assault troops, Some 2+ save heavy armor suit and aircraft.
What is a bit of a mixed message is how they have not come up with an equivalent of the "smash captain" or why the new rules favor dakka centurions or some old models over new: Storm-bolter, Storm-shield, deathwatch veterans for instance.
Well, I have many thousand points of "old marines" so i am a bit vested in them (About a chapter's worth).
Been around since 2nd edition so have the tiny terminators still around somewhere.
It is a source of apprehension to see what is about $2000 of models become obsolete.
I would be lying if I did not express some relief to see the new SM codex did not drop anything much.
Scale creep has alway been a factor with GW, some fantasy battle folk could say their old Orks compared to the new ones look like Grots.
Since there was a fair bit of interest in "true-scale marines" out there it only seems logical based on the fluff and interest GW would address it.
My Black Templar is all old marines and I exclusively use metal scouts because of scale.
The newer plastic scouts are huge in comparison, I only use them with the Primaris army and I fully expect them to phase-out at some point.
I expect due to efficiencies both for GW and the Imperium that producing two different scales of wargear would be frowned upon and old marines will be told to "upgrade" or they should "volunteer" for Deathwatch where attrition due to locking horns with Orks is rather high.
Just looking at the pictures in the new codex, they grudgingly include old marines only spots where Primarus has no equivalent so you can see the writing on the wall.
=Angel= wrote: For me the tragedy is what could have been.
They have a Horus Heresy book series- they could have done a ton of foreshadowing of the geneseed being sequestered, legion recruits sent to mars and never returning, fething characters whose story abruptly ends on a ship with the techpriests.
They could have alluded to someone other than Fabulous Bill continuing Corax' research into the Raptor project.
They could have had Fist/Ultra relations strained when the Fists are fighting on Mars only to discover Ultramarine vox traffic- and several guardian companies defending the entrance to a massive vault, not participating in any of the Solar conflict.
Hinting or foreshadowing any of this would have made it feel like something planned rather than pulled from powerarmour wasteport.
In addition we could have had OG Heresy characters continuing their stories in 40k, meeting modern counterparts, remembering the Primarchs.
except that... THE PRIMARIS PROJECT DIDN'T LAUNCH UNTIL AFTER THE HERESY.
If we ever get a book series about the second founding etc. we can expect to see them lay hints. but the primaris project was not launched until after the battle of terra.
But at the same time all Primaris marines in the vault were full fledged marines not scouts so they would have participated in some battle at some point
fraser1191 wrote: But at the same time all Primaris marines in the vault were full fledged marines not scouts so they would have participated in some battle at some point
no, they where aspirants when they where sent to the process.
fraser1191 wrote: But at the same time all Primaris marines in the vault were full fledged marines not scouts so they would have participated in some battle at some point
no, they where aspirants when they where sent to the process.
So they got all of their implants in a tube/lab and only have precodex battle strategy? At this I'm going to have to take a break from painting to read everything and get stuff straight
Cawl's initial batch of the Primaris were trained to only perform one role, and that's it. The later ones are trained normally.
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Vankraken wrote: I know a lot of these blurbs about the more recent stories are extremely condensed summaries but it all sounds like stuff written to backfill the hole they dug for themselves with the Gathering Storm + launch of 8th. Perhaps it's me being biased but it comes across as GW doing a form of damage control for the flimsy premise they made for themselves.
This is probably exactly what's happening. And it is welcome. Yeah, it would have been better had they not fethed up in the first place, but this is still a good direction.
fraser1191 wrote: But at the same time all Primaris marines in the vault were full fledged marines not scouts so they would have participated in some battle at some point
no, they where aspirants when they where sent to the process.
So they got all of their implants in a tube/lab and only have precodex battle strategy? At this I'm going to have to take a break from painting to read everything and get stuff straight
Pretty much. Can't remember completely, but that was the Legion way - no Scouts, just wait for the Black Carapace to mature, get hypnotherapy and memnotraining, and you're a Legionnaire! The reason Scouts were introduced was to more rigorously examine the geneseed and monitor recruits to prevent the same en masse corruption as what happened pre-Codex.
The Primaris Marines were probably indoctrinated with early Codex strategy (Guilliman was writing his Codex Astartes before the Battle of Terra), so the Primaris aren't horrifically out of the loop, but will need "real" combat experience, ergo, they're not battle hardened Heresy era Marines. They're certainly not green or untrained by any stretch though, so saying that they're just lab-grown test tube babies isn't accurate either.
As with anyone who hasn't actually read up on Primaris lore, I would recommend it, if only to dispel some of the more egregious misconceptions.
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Crimson wrote: Cawl's initial batch of the Primaris were trained to only perform one role, and that's it. The later ones are trained normally.
Yeah, that's something I forgot to mention. The original stasis-stored Primaris were entirely specialist. You would be assigned the role of Intercessor, and that's what you'd stay as. Nowadays, the other two types of Primaris Marine are trained to cover the entire range of combat roles as needed (like Brother Pollandus, who goes through a very wide range of skills and roles).
I think I generally agree with most of the sentiments here. It was a shock to the system coming back to 40k and finding Primaris everywhere! In a previous life I was actually a Space Orks (as they were then called) player, so it wasn't as bad as it might have been for a Space Marines veteran.
I really dislike the repulsor vehicles. Grav tanks belong to Eldar and Tau, not to Space Marines. The Imperium has always fielded tracks and treads and wheels. It's almost like (in universe) the Imperium has seen the Tau and started an arms race in trying to outdo them in cool tech.
As with others, I think Intercessors look like proper Space marines - I actually quite like the look of the Reivers too, but not a fan of Inceptors or Aggressors - too curvy and bulbous. Some of the HQ models, in particular the Chaplain and the Lieutenant with the power sword, look pretty awesome imo. Still prefer the Sanguinary Priest to the Apothecary though.
When it came to choosing what to centre my fledgling force around, I went for a good old Tactical Squad. The only Primaris in my force currently is the free Intercessor model that came with my £5 Getting Started book/pack! (I am using it - a bit naughtily - as a Primaris Lieutenant).
Still not certain how much Primaris to include. Certainly won't be including their vehicles, dreadnoughts included (the Blood Angels Furioso is so much cooler anyway). At most I might end up putting in an Intercessor squad and an actual Lieutenant model (the heroic one with the power sword, not the one with the smoking grenade and tacti-cool pose).
If you didn't like the initial lore that was in codex for the Primaris Marines you really should read Dark Imperium 1 and 2.
Overall it was quite a nice book and it really shows the dislike of the new and old marines towards each other, with the many chapters REALLY not liking their new recruits and the greyshields mostly being incredibly pissed about their chapter selection when many were initially Ultramarines, Space Wolves, or Dark Angels who had a decent amount of battle experience during the Scouring. (theres a whole storyline devoted to a very unhappy primaris marine who basically hates his new chapter). Additionally it makes Guilliman a far more complex character who devoutly hates everything that is happening in the Imperium and has no power to fix it (he also really dislikes Cato Sicarius) Even Marneus Calgar is super depressed about losing control of Ultramar and playing second fiddle to Guilliman when he used to be the ultra badass (which probably explains why he went rubicon!). Reading those two books really helped me get my head around the new marines and realizing its not all roses (apparently some chapters had a box of gene seed delivered by custodes who said "this is how you make marines now, deal with it" and those chapters are pretty pissed as well)
=Angel= wrote: Awful background combined with rules driven models, model kit/sales driven rules and general incompatibility with Space Marines mean I won't be picking any up until they resolve at least the last 2.
You're wrong in your assessments, and you're being negative for the sake of it.
The lore is subjective, you probably know little of it. The model sales are not rules driven, they've been sub par for over two years.
Move on
It doesn't matter how good they are, just how Timmy they are.
Primaris are the ultimate Timmy infantry.
Going by the paradigm that's from.. That doesn't make any sense since Primaris tend to be competitive at this point. You could make a case that they are part of the spike and johnny paradigm as well. Timmy players tend to play big things and cool things, maybe weird variance things none of which Primaris are. This is the sort of category you'd see like the Three Land Raider player.
Primaris are literally 'bigger and cooler' Marines. It's not just big stompy monsters, but how 'cool' (or 'tacticool') they are, especially as they have W2 infantry. Spike will play whatever FOM there is, be it Primaris, Eldar Flying Circus or Giant Blobs of Dudes or wherever the pendulum wings, and will use it whether the big timmy stats or exploiting special rules: "as long as it cuts".
Johnny in these games can manifest in both gameplay and the hobby element. I would argue that Johnny in the WH side of it loves the fluff and imagery and makes highly thematic or personalised armies and generally shies away from big stats or big rules.
=Angel= wrote: Awful background combined with rules driven models, model kit/sales driven rules and general incompatibility with Space Marines mean I won't be picking any up until they resolve at least the last 2.
You're wrong in your assessments, and you're being negative for the sake of it.
The lore is subjective, you probably know little of it. The model sales are not rules driven, they've been sub par for over two years.
Move on
It doesn't matter how good they are, just how Timmy they are.
Primaris are the ultimate Timmy infantry.
Going by the paradigm that's from.. That doesn't make any sense since Primaris tend to be competitive at this point. You could make a case that they are part of the spike and johnny paradigm as well. Timmy players tend to play big things and cool things, maybe weird variance things none of which Primaris are. This is the sort of category you'd see like the Three Land Raider player.
Primaris are literally 'bigger and cooler' Marines. It's not just big stompy monsters, but how 'cool' (or 'tacticool') they are, especially as they have W2 infantry. Spike will play whatever FOM there is, be it Primaris, Eldar Flying Circus or Giant Blobs of Dudes or wherever the pendulum wings, and will use it whether the big timmy stats or exploiting special rules: "as long as it cuts".
Johnny in these games can manifest in both gameplay and the hobby element. I would argue that Johnny in the WH side of it loves the fluff and imagery and makes highly thematic or personalised armies and generally shies away from big stats or big rules.
Basically this. Using the triple land raider example given earlier. A Timmy might field a Land Raider full of TH/SS terminators because it's big, flashy, and has the potential to blow the ever loving feth out of some big nasty. A Johnny might field 3 Land Raiders and fill it with Blood Claws because it's some crazy strategy he came up with as it's a bit unique or thematic. A Spike would field 3 Land Raiders if they where OP (spike is also the type that would field a 7th ed Bark Bark Star despite it being a giant slog to play for all parties involved because it wins games). Of course nobody is purely one of these archetypes but it's reasonable to say that Primaris where aiming to be more appealing to a Timmy focused player than say a Johnny or Spike (especially with their initial rule sets).
So baaasicly people are, yet again trying to compare a table top minitaure game to a fething CCG?
One factor in 40k I've found that isn't mentioned there is the "hero player" this player doesn't want to have buckets of minis he throws down and picks up as the game goes on, he puts time and effort into his painting and wants those minis to stick around for a bit. he tends to favor durable armies, that can take damage, and IMHO Primaris Marines are designed to appeal to them. other factions designed for those type of players are custodes, death guard and knights.
BrianDavion wrote: So baaasicly people are, yet again trying to compare a table top minitaure game to a CCG?
One factor in 40k I've found that isn't mentioned there is the "hero player" this player doesn't want to have buckets of minis he throws down and picks up as the game goes on, he puts time and effort into his painting and wants those minis to stick around for a bit. he tends to favor durable armies, that can take damage, and IMHO Primaris Marines are designed to appeal to them. other factions designed for those type of players are custodes, death guard and knights.
It was coined by the people working on MtG but it's a fairly universal concept in gaming. D&D has similar player archetypes (not the game classes but the way people play the game).
What you described is the Timmy who likes big stompy things that deal lots of damage and/or hard to kill. Kitted out units with all the bells and whistles.
BrianDavion wrote: So baaasicly people are, yet again trying to compare a table top minitaure game to a CCG?
One factor in 40k I've found that isn't mentioned there is the "hero player" this player doesn't want to have buckets of minis he throws down and picks up as the game goes on, he puts time and effort into his painting and wants those minis to stick around for a bit. he tends to favor durable armies, that can take damage, and IMHO Primaris Marines are designed to appeal to them. other factions designed for those type of players are custodes, death guard and knights.
It was coined by the people working on MtG but it's a fairly universal concept in gaming. D&D has similar player archetypes (not the game classes but the way people play the game).
What you described is the Timmy who likes big stompy things that deal lots of damage and/or hard to kill. Kitted out units with all the bells and whistles.
IOW he didn't read the article I clearly linked to...
BrianDavion wrote: So baaasicly people are, yet again trying to compare a table top minitaure game to a fething CCG?
Well Mtg has a pretty tight knit ruleset so cut people some slack. Magic while having cards that break the game still adhere to most rules like timing and such, but then there are cards you can play to get the first around the timing restrictions. So I think people are just craving stuff like that, something deeper than a Statline and unit priority
A)
I think its fun to picture these secret projects, millennia long, coming to fruition for the benefit of humans and the downfall of others... To me this isn't much different than the necrons sleeping and then waking much later, or if they ever say any of the old ones are alive, or someone finds old ones tech or knowledge beyond what the space elves or necrons know or something... The galaxy is a big place after all, and with this much chaos for so long its not surprising to me for things to disappear into time only to appear later
B)
Frankly, I've always disliked the lack of advancement of the space marines and the imperium at large. I just find it hard to believe at times that say lasguns or IG basic artillery is effective against all the different things out there. I'm reminded of the first stuff I ever read about necrons, some passage in the new SM codex at the time about green blasts of energy instantly destroying vehicles and slicing up armor. That never really changed right since then? So wouldn't necrons just wipe the board with the imperium basically always? Well, if they do, its not much fun story wise now is it... anyways my point is its good to see some new stuff that isn't to outrageous come out story wise. (in an outrageous universe i might add!) Also, I was a huge fan of new weapons tpyes that came out over the years, i wanted to do an SM chapter with grav weapons, but now prime-marines are different :( so that's a bummer.... I don't know if you can do a chapter wide grav gun style sorta like DA.... but hte prime-marines ahve new weapons too so thats something neat!
Model wise IRL:
I keep hearing about the scale issues of 40k. "true scale" etc. I mean if it was that a space marine is the same height as a guardsman as a tau fire warrior has a carnifex...well... uh now what? Different sizes give the tabletop a life, its scary when a giant mawloc is hovering over your firewarriors, just like it would be in-universe!
I don't know much about it all but I do understand that making all the models make sense scale wise would lead to a tank being the size of some gaming tables. Conversely, I'm painting tau fire warriors atm, and i have to use a magnifying glass. period. So, I would appreciate models that are slightly bigger but keep proportional to the context of the game universe. I would love to paint some of the new models! So im sure everyone here can understand the difficulty for people and their painting abilities... its not easy and costly if you screw up at times...
Guys, in the end the models are here to stay, you can still use your old SM, they'll never go away or at least, not for a long time. (but i doubt it will ever cease) they'll jsut slowly make slightly larger models for everything and rebalance some of the the tanks and large vehicles. I personally hate the sizes of tau tanks... so
I read the article, my point is MTG is a CCG without the elements of lore and style. I doubt there are many people in MTG whom are intreasted in fielding a deck that is "lore accurate" (if such a thing can even exist) in 40k for example there are plenty of people who'd wanna field 3 tac squads, 1 assault squad and one devestator squad, you can twist yourself into a pretzel to claim "ohh he's just a jimmy" except... he's not. As MTG said a Jimmy is someone who wants to be uber creative and do his own thing. the Jimmy that MTG just says is one archtype is, within 40k, a dozen seperate archtypes each with their own views.
Well Mtg has a pretty tight knit ruleset so cut people some slack. Magic while having cards that break the game still adhere to most rules like timing and such, but then there are cards you can play to get the first around the timing restrictions. So I think people are just craving stuff like that, something deeper than a Statline and unit priority
of course all that depth is reliant on you getting lucky eneugh to get the card you want thanks to their predatory card sales mechanism
BrianDavion wrote: I read the article, my point is MTG is a CCG without the elements of lore and style. I doubt there are many people in MTG whom are intreasted in fielding a deck that is "lore accurate" (if such a thing can even exist) in 40k for example there are plenty of people who'd wanna field 3 tac squads, 1 assault squad and one devestator squad, you can twist yourself into a pretzel to claim "ohh he's just a jimmy" except... he's not. As MTG said a Jimmy is someone who wants to be uber creative and do his own thing. the Jimmy that MTG just says is one archtype is, within 40k, a dozen seperate archtypes each with their own views.
Well Mtg has a pretty tight knit ruleset so cut people some slack. Magic while having cards that break the game still adhere to most rules like timing and such, but then there are cards you can play to get the first around the timing restrictions. So I think people are just craving stuff like that, something deeper than a Statline and unit priority
of course all that depth is reliant on you getting lucky eneugh to get the card you want thanks to their predatory card sales mechanism
Well anyone that doesn't buy magic singles from a card shop is usually fishing for that arbitrarily expensive card. Yeah wizards doesn't care about their players at all and it shows with their hyper predatory business practices. EA could take notes
For what it's worth, you can actually make lore friendly decks and you'd be surprised about the depth of its lore to be honest. If you have a hankering for it look up Urza. He's basically the best part of the lore and everything pretty much stems from him.
AngryAngel80 wrote: Hey, plenty of people hate logan on chariot, all the salty hater rage does is make me stronger. Pro primaris types should do he same. I mean most who dislike part of primaris don't just blanket hate them all, just parts of them after all. Why find an enemy when you can instead find a partial ally ?
it gets annoying when you can't discuss something though without having people come in and make the same shallow uninformed arguments (not all arguements against Primaris are shallow and uninformed but many of the more vocal gak posters tend to be) as gto why they suck and if you like them you are somehow impure.
Nitro Zeus wrote:Also, their one dimensional loadouts is antithetical to everything marines imo.
I always love when this sort of comment gets brought up.
As usual, my response is unchanged: What about 30k Marines? Are they not Space Marines? If they're not Space Marines, then what did the Primarchs lead into battle, if not their Legions of Space Marines?
What about Assault Terminators and Centurions? They have very one-dimensional loadouts (fewer than nearly all Primaris units, in fact!)
Assault Terminators are already a sub customization of Terminators. They are identical in everything other than loadout, they are just separated on the FOC, as GW recognises that their role customization is SO broad that they didn't want the FOC to intrude upon the use of them in either aspect. Terminators in the game can have a ton of different load outs ranging from assault, shooting, mixed, etc, and they are one of the units I think have also been designed better in other editions when not put to the side for newer units. Aggressors options are literally a two way choice of either Flamestorm or Boltstorm. The example you give highlights it.
I'm not sure what you mean about 30k. I specifically said 40k, not 30k. The chapters are VERY different from the Legions. You know 30k was a setting that was filled in well after 40k was? In the history of the hobby it's actually quite a new thing, and hasn't retroactively changed the identity of the 40k chapters. When there was 100,000+ strong legions, individual specialisation was not a needed strength as much (except for the ones who operated in smaller teams, and in which case they were given that sort of specialization - an Alpha Legionnaire is trained for every different combat role for example). In 40k, Chapters are a fraction of this size, and customization of individual squads has always been a thing for tac marines in gameplay. Which is why I don't like the move away from that. The difference between Devastators and Hellblasters is a pretty stark example of what I dislike so far for example, if you point at units that aren't as bad at this, well it's probably not an issue I have. You aren't really trying to say that the Primaris range has been designed for the sort of squad customization that squat Marines have right? Surely you recognise what I dislike here?
Also, 40k is going to really lose something when the Rhinos/Land Raiders/Mk8 helmets/Terminators are gone, these things are the most iconic parts of 40k to me personally.
Ignoring that fact that Mark 8 helmets don't exist (I think you mean the Mark 7 'Aquila' pattern helmet, which the Mark 8 'Errant' armour uses), there's been no sign of these units being discontinued, removed, or otherwise made irrelevant. Space Marine Chapters still use all of the above in their lore. Just because there's new types of Space Marine, and some new Chapters entirely comprised of these Primaris Marines exist (which actually still use Land Raiders!) doesn't mean that those older ones are gone.
yeah 7 is right next to 8 on my keyboard at least, so you'll have to excuse the typo, and like you said.... it's still the exact same helmet either way lol
Fair enough on the aesthetics. It just feels like they are pushing TAC marines to the back with the rules writing, they are significantly worse than Primaris, and the difference is jarring, it appears to be some of the best units in the game sharing a codex with some of the worst units in the game, and you can just about draw that line by separating the primaris from the old marines, with some few exceptions. I'm fine with them updating the range and moving past the old one if they are pushing towards that, I'd just like to not entirely lose the iconic aesthetic that helped make me fall in love with this game. I can still use the old Tyranid models for example, that doesn't mean I don't have a personal opinion on the new aesthetic.
With that said, I quite love some of the new marines, and I think the Infiltrators are deliberately made to reference the aquila helmet which I really appreciate. Hope to see more of that, until I do though, my personal issue here is still relevant to me.
Massive GW fan, completely cool with the update to the range, some of the models look great, but I guess having any sort of nuance to a completely subjective opinion is going to make me a “hater”.
Not at all. Calling someone a 'hater' just because they dislike parts of it just screams of reductive antagonism. Similarly, there's nothing wrong with subjective opinion, as long as everyone remembers what the distinction between opinion and fact is. Now, this isn't directed at you (you've not done this), but when someone might claim something like 'XYZ are the core foundations of what it is to be a Space Marine, and Primaris are objectively bad because they don't fit that!", that's not accurate, because XYZ are not universal features - therefore, the statement can't be anything more than an opinion.
Well, as you said, I haven't done that, so I don't really have any response to that, and I can't quite tell why you included it in your response to me. I haven't fully read through this thread though so maybe I'm missing some context, but I don't speak for anyone bar myself, and I was pretty clear to say in my post, "these things are the most iconic parts of 40k to me personally."
This obsession with people disliking something that you like isn’t healthy
Fair point. Likewise, I would say that feeling the compulsive need to go onto a thread specifically requesting that negative opinions be left at the door, and leaving a negative opinion is equally unhealthy.
Let people enjoy things. It's not like there's a shortage of threads where you can vent about Primaris Marines.
Eh? Where's the "negativity"? That I have one or two personal dislikes of the Primaris range, and time hasn't changed that for me? It's literally an answer to the thread topic, there's zero negativity aimed at anybody for what they like. You can't make a thread titled "Poll question - but only 'yes' answers though!", that's utterly absurd. I have no issue with anybody enjoying anything they want to - it's all entirely subjective and I'd never tell someone they are wrong for liking what they like, I didn't imply anything of the sort, I'm just sharing my personal feedback on whether or not time has alleviated the issues I had with the range. As you tell to let others like what they like - absolutely, and I've never intrude on that, but perhaps you should take a heavy dose of your own advice and also let others dislike what they dislike, that was my entire point about the obsession some people seem to have with what other people think about this range, and why it's an unhealthy one.
Darian Aarush wrote: I think I generally agree with most of the sentiments here. It was a shock to the system coming back to 40k and finding Primaris everywhere! In a previous life I was actually a Space Orks (as they were then called) player, so it wasn't as bad as it might have been for a Space Marines veteran.
Sure he is the only person in the Imperium who does
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Nosto7 wrote: I don't know much about it all but I do understand that making all the models make sense scale wise would lead to a tank being the size of some gaming tables.
You might be surprised at the size of tanks in real life, certainly the cheaper non western MBTs and the west has some very small scout tanks and the like.
Where is this lore on Guilliman not liking Cato Sicarius?
Very interested in seeing this. I've read DI 1 and 2, Knights of Macragge, Crusade, Iron and Blood and many other books set post Rift that involve the Ultras, and I didn't catch this.
Ishagu wrote: Where is this lore on Guilliman not liking Cato Sicarius?
Very interested in seeing this. I've read DI 1 and 2, Knights of Macragge, Crusade, Iron and Blood and many other books set post Rift that involve the Ultras, and I didn't catch this.
In DI 1 there was a scene where Guilliman was in his office musing about his staff (early on maybe?) and he basically says that he can't stand Sicarius because he sees him as arrogant, stubborn, and skilled warrior but he also sees that he has the potential to do great things if he can work on his interpersonal skills (hence being taken out of command and into the Vicitrix guard). The dislike was more of a personal interpretation but I stand by it since Cato is a jerk, although now he has hardcore PTSD which might actually temper his character and make him a little more likable. Also If the Emperor had a Text to Speech is not helping my interpretation of Sicarius as well =P
Ishagu wrote: Where is this lore on Guilliman not liking Cato Sicarius?
Very interested in seeing this. I've read DI 1 and 2, Knights of Macragge, Crusade, Iron and Blood and many other books set post Rift that involve the Ultras, and I didn't catch this.
In DI 1 there was a scene where Guilliman was in his office musing about his staff (early on maybe?) and he basically says that he can't stand Sicarius because he sees him as arrogant, stubborn, and skilled warrior but he also sees that he has the potential to do great things if he can work on his interpersonal skills (hence being taken out of command and into the Vicitrix guard). The dislike was more of a personal interpretation but I stand by it since Cato is a jerk, although now he has hardcore PTSD which might actually temper his character and make him a little more likable. Also If the Emperor had a Text to Speech is not helping my interpretation of Sicarius as well =P
Text To Speech is literally one of the worst things to ever happen for 40k as it dumbs down people that don't bother to look at the actual lore.
Ishagu wrote: Where is this lore on Guilliman not liking Cato Sicarius?
Very interested in seeing this. I've read DI 1 and 2, Knights of Macragge, Crusade, Iron and Blood and many other books set post Rift that involve the Ultras, and I didn't catch this.
In DI 1 there was a scene where Guilliman was in his office musing about his staff (early on maybe?) and he basically says that he can't stand Sicarius because he sees him as arrogant, stubborn, and skilled warrior but he also sees that he has the potential to do great things if he can work on his interpersonal skills (hence being taken out of command and into the Vicitrix guard). The dislike was more of a personal interpretation but I stand by it since Cato is a jerk, although now he has hardcore PTSD which might actually temper his character and make him a little more likable. Also If the Emperor had a Text to Speech is not helping my interpretation of Sicarius as well =P
Text To Speech is literally one of the worst things to ever happen for 40k as it dumbs down people that don't bother to look at the actual lore.
So much truth.....yet I find myself drawn to it for some reason, despite having read upwards of a hundred 40k novels ><. Really I just like the part about Dorn being so weird and Calgar being bored to tears because plot armor makes him invincible.
Ishagu wrote: Where is this lore on Guilliman not liking Cato Sicarius?
Very interested in seeing this. I've read DI 1 and 2, Knights of Macragge, Crusade, Iron and Blood and many other books set post Rift that involve the Ultras, and I didn't catch this.
In DI 1 there was a scene where Guilliman was in his office musing about his staff (early on maybe?) and he basically says that he can't stand Sicarius because he sees him as arrogant, stubborn, and skilled warrior but he also sees that he has the potential to do great things if he can work on his interpersonal skills (hence being taken out of command and into the Vicitrix guard). The dislike was more of a personal interpretation but I stand by it since Cato is a jerk, although now he has hardcore PTSD which might actually temper his character and make him a little more likable. Also If the Emperor had a Text to Speech is not helping my interpretation of Sicarius as well =P
Text To Speech is literally one of the worst things to ever happen for 40k as it dumbs down people that don't bother to look at the actual lore.
Those people would have done the same thing anyway off of memes, 1d4chan, or whatever else existed in its wake. TTS deserves to be labelled as how bad it is in its own right imo
Ishagu wrote: Where is this lore on Guilliman not liking Cato Sicarius?
Very interested in seeing this. I've read DI 1 and 2, Knights of Macragge, Crusade, Iron and Blood and many other books set post Rift that involve the Ultras, and I didn't catch this.
In DI 1 there was a scene where Guilliman was in his office musing about his staff (early on maybe?) and he basically says that he can't stand Sicarius because he sees him as arrogant, stubborn, and skilled warrior but he also sees that he has the potential to do great things if he can work on his interpersonal skills (hence being taken out of command and into the Vicitrix guard). The dislike was more of a personal interpretation but I stand by it since Cato is a jerk, although now he has hardcore PTSD which might actually temper his character and make him a little more likable. Also If the Emperor had a Text to Speech is not helping my interpretation of Sicarius as well =P
Text To Speech is literally one of the worst things to ever happen for 40k as it dumbs down people that don't bother to look at the actual lore.
Those people would have done the same thing anyway off of memes, 1d4chan, or whatever else existed in its wake. TTS deserves to be labelled as how bad it is in its own right imo
1d4chan is just as bad, with tactics being bad from there as well.
Ishagu wrote: Where is this lore on Guilliman not liking Cato Sicarius?
Very interested in seeing this. I've read DI 1 and 2, Knights of Macragge, Crusade, Iron and Blood and many other books set post Rift that involve the Ultras, and I didn't catch this.
In DI 1 there was a scene where Guilliman was in his office musing about his staff (early on maybe?) and he basically says that he can't stand Sicarius because he sees him as arrogant, stubborn, and skilled warrior but he also sees that he has the potential to do great things if he can work on his interpersonal skills (hence being taken out of command and into the Vicitrix guard). The dislike was more of a personal interpretation but I stand by it since Cato is a jerk, although now he has hardcore PTSD which might actually temper his character and make him a little more likable. Also If the Emperor had a Text to Speech is not helping my interpretation of Sicarius as well =P
Text To Speech is literally one of the worst things to ever happen for 40k as it dumbs down people that don't bother to look at the actual lore.
To be fair it can be argued that 40k takes itself far too seriously for something that was originally built around being a mix of a parody, political humor, and homage to (or blatant rip off) other fantasy/sci fi universes. TTS gives an easy to digest but twisted for comedic effect look at the lore without being quite as over the top as 1d4chan entries. That said it's a parody in itself so it should be viewed as such or at least with that filter in mind when using it to learn about the lore.
Huh, no idea where my latest post has gone? Apologies for that.
robbienw wrote:There is a specific Mk8 helmet.
See the deathwatch kill team kit.
Its similar in look to the mk 7 helm but has noticeable differences.
I wasn't aware that was actually the Mark 8 helmet. I assumed it was just a Deathwatch variant of the Mark 7. Still, the majority of Mark 8 art has them wearing Mark 7 helmets, so I'm sure you can understand my misinformation.
Nitro Zeus wrote:
Sgt_Smudge wrote: I always love when this sort of comment gets brought up.
As usual, my response is unchanged: What about 30k Marines? Are they not Space Marines? If they're not Space Marines, then what did the Primarchs lead into battle, if not their Legions of Space Marines?
What about Assault Terminators and Centurions? They have very one-dimensional loadouts (fewer than nearly all Primaris units, in fact!)
Assault Terminators are already a sub customization of Terminators. They are identical in everything other than loadout, they are just separated on the FOC, as GW recognises that their role customization is SO broad that they didn't want the FOC to intrude upon the use of them in either aspect. Terminators in the game can have a ton of different load outs ranging from assault, shooting, mixed, etc, and they are one of the units I think have also been designed better in other editions when not put to the side for newer units. Aggressors options are literally a two way choice of either Flamestorm or Boltstorm. The example you give highlights it.
But then surely we should technically be classing Inceptors and Aggressors together, because they wear the same armour, just with loadout differences (loadout including such aspects as their jump packs). Not to mention that GW could easily have kept Terminators as a catch-all entry. Instead, they've been split into two separate units specifically to outline that their combat doctrine is distinct from the standard Terminators.
I just don't think it's a fair argument to claim that Terminators have a broad loadout, but it's spread over multiple types of unit entry, but when Primaris do similar, it doesn't count.
I'm not sure what you mean about 30k. I specifically said 40k, not 30k. The chapters are VERY different from the Legions. You know 30k was a setting that was filled in well after 40k was? In the history of the hobby it's actually quite a new thing, and hasn't retroactively changed the identity of the 40k chapters. When there was 100,000+ strong legions, individual specialisation was not a needed strength as much (except for the ones who operated in smaller teams, and in which case they were given that sort of specialization - an Alpha Legionnaire is trained for every different combat role for example). In 40k, Chapters are a fraction of this size, and customization of individual squads has always been a thing for tac marines in gameplay. Which is why I don't like the move away from that. The difference between Devastators and Hellblasters is a pretty stark example of what I dislike so far for example, if you point at units that aren't as bad at this, well it's probably not an issue I have. You aren't really trying to say that the Primaris range has been designed for the sort of squad customization that squat Marines have right? Surely you recognise what I dislike here?
I do recognise that the Legions aren't the Chapters, but they ARE both Space Marines.
If the whole "mono-weapon squads" was such an affront to the ideals of what it means to be a Space Marine, then why haven't I been seeing thread after thread on "why the Legion Space Marines aren't PROPER Astartes"? Just feels like a massive double standard to complain about the Primaris doing something, and then not a word when the Legions do the same. The identity of the Chapters are still unchanged. You still have roughly 10 Companies, of 10 Squads (or 20 Combat Squads), with each squad fulfilling a certain battlefield role, with the Battle Companies consisting of a mix of battlefield roles in order for maximum combat effectiveness. I'm sorry, but I don't think the customisation of one in every five guys in a Tactical Squad was a critical part of the Space Marine image, at least for me. I respect that people may think differently, but then I must insist - if embedded special weapons is *so important*, are Legion Astartes not what you consider to be Space Marines?
Fair enough on the aesthetics. It just feels like they are pushing TAC marines to the back with the rules writing, they are significantly worse than Primaris, and the difference is jarring, it appears to be some of the best units in the game sharing a codex with some of the worst units in the game, and you can just about draw that line by separating the primaris from the old marines, with some few exceptions.
I'd concede this point if it weren't for the fact that mono-Primaris build aren't exactly the best Marine armies out there, and that the supplements are buffing old Marines just as much as Primaris. Hell, most people seem to preferring Scouts to Tacticals, because they're cheap and act as chaff better as a result - which also feels like removing Tactical Marines from the picture.
End of the day, I don't think Primaris rules are much better than standard Marine ones to make me think that GW is pushing them away.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Calling someone a 'hater' just because they dislike parts of it just screams of reductive antagonism. Similarly, there's nothing wrong with subjective opinion, as long as everyone remembers what the distinction between opinion and fact is. Now, this isn't directed at you (you've not done this), but when someone might claim something like 'XYZ are the core foundations of what it is to be a Space Marine, and Primaris are objectively bad because they don't fit that!", that's not accurate, because XYZ are not universal features - therefore, the statement can't be anything more than an opinion.
Well, as you said, I haven't done that, so I don't really have any response to that, and I can't quite tell why you included it in your response to me. I haven't fully read through this thread though so maybe I'm missing some context, but I don't speak for anyone bar myself, and I was pretty clear to say in my post, "these things are the most iconic parts of 40k to me personally."
I did point that out, it's not directed at yourself. I just happened to mention that point in the same post. It's not directed at you, it's a general comment, which happened to be part of my general response. My apologies for any confusion.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Fair point. Likewise, I would say that feeling the compulsive need to go onto a thread specifically requesting that negative opinions be left at the door, and leaving a negative opinion is equally unhealthy.
Let people enjoy things. It's not like there's a shortage of threads where you can vent about Primaris Marines.
Eh? Where's the "negativity"? That I have one or two personal dislikes of the Primaris range, and time hasn't changed that for me? It's literally an answer to the thread topic, there's zero negativity aimed at anybody for what they like. You can't make a thread titled "Poll question - but only 'yes' answers though!", that's utterly absurd. I have no issue with anybody enjoying anything they want to - it's all entirely subjective and I'd never tell someone they are wrong for liking what they like, I didn't imply anything of the sort, I'm just sharing my personal feedback on whether or not time has alleviated the issues I had with the range. As you tell to let others like what they like - absolutely, and I've never intrude on that, but perhaps you should take a heavy dose of your own advice and also let others dislike what they dislike, that was my entire point about the obsession some people seem to have with what other people think about this range, and why it's an unhealthy one.
I think the OP was more asking "have people started accepting Primaris, but we don't need to talk about if we personally like them or not, just what our perceptions of the community are". It's not exactly a 'discuss what we like and what we don't', because those seem to be a dime a dozen here.
The negativity is more referring to "we don't need to have a debate on what we like or don't like, there's been so many other threads for that" - sure, that may have made this thread a bit of a dull one for discussion as we can't throw in opinions so much, but it would have felt less like 'generic Primaris thread number 45' - however, I think by this point, it's gone a little off that original stipulation.
Ishagu wrote: I believe the attitudes are starting to shift, albeit slowly. So... let's keep this civil.
I can accept that Primaris might have been a shock to the system of long term hobbyists when they were first unveiled. I certainly wasn't happy myself and I remember it very clearly!
Rewind back in time a few years. 7th edition was starting to wind down and the game was a bloated, broken mess - magnitudes worse than anything today. I had literally just completed a massive re-build of my extensive Ultramarines army. I had fallen in love with the Heresy era Mk4 armours and had painfully replaced most of the infantry in my army with these more exotic looking Astartes. I was also a big collector of Forgeword and had invested in multiple vehicles (I was also playing a lot of 30k back then too).
One day I stopped by my local GW and saw that the store manager was re-basing the store's Astartes army; He was putting every model on a raised base. I asked why he was doing this but he couldn't tell me. This was mere days before the Primaris reveal and I believe many of the store managers had been briefed about the huge release. He was literally trying to raise the Astartes to the same height as the up-coming Primaris. Funny enough he had only just completed the army – same as me with the Ultras...
The big reveal happened and at first I didn't know how to feel. I was both upset and mildly in disbelief and that feeling continued until I saw the models in person. That's when things changed for me and I decided to take the plunge.
As we all remember the rules were not particularly exciting when they first dropped - The Primaris were absolutely not required for an Astartes army to function, and the model line was extremely limited on top of that. I was actually grateful for this! I knew that this wouldn't be the case forever, and it allowed me to collect the army at a leisurely pace as there was no game related need to include the models or rush. Gradually over the course of a year I amassed a big army and continued to add to it as new things were released. I now find myself with over 4000 points of fully painted Primaris and have enjoyed using them very much - especially with the new codex.
I think a lot of people were upset or angry with the release and I do understand the feeling, however after two years I firmly believe it should be subsiding or even gone. I think GW focused heavily on the Ultras for a long time and that also upset people. The Primaris and the Ultramarines were merged as a single enemy of the lore and hobby in people's minds, even though this was not going to be the case in the long term - as we can evidently see now.
I also think that the lack of variety was turning people off as well, but again that was only ever going to be a temporary state for the Primaris. The old range wasn't released in its final state from the start - it began with a few basic kits and it grew over many years and releases. The new range was never going to compete with this in terms of sheer variety out of the gate. It's the same with the lore.
The new codex has been a great success for the hobby and fans of Astartes. The book is high in quality and powerful (perhaps too powerful) and the supplements are allowing for more unique ways to play the various chapters than ever before. Finally they are getting the lore and rules support they deserve and also quality, unique models in most cases. I think this is finally starting to separate the Primaris from the hated Ultras in people's minds lol.
So, more than two years after Primaris were revealed. After many months of complaining from certain parts of the community, after much rage and anger, are we finally starting to see the community shift?
I think so! I'm seeing more topics discussing the Primaris units that aren't being derailed and far less hostility, and the chapter unique models have been very well received by the vast majority - and that is not something that typically happens with a Primaris release! Of course there are still those who have pledged themselves to Nurgle and don't want to see any new releases or change of any kind....
Thoughts?
Personally, I have essentially never been really enthusiastic about space marines in any capacity until fairly recently. The infantry was butt-ugly and anything "cool and unique" about them the Sisters of Battle do better with better looking models and a more fun approach to the themes. I do have a Space Wolf army as my third army, but it's been long neglected and I acquired it for $0 secondhand from somebody looking to get out of the hobby.
However, when Shadowspear came out, I was like "Wow. If Space Marines had the aesthetic of Eliminators from the beginning, I would probably also play Raptors" I love the new ridiculous tacticool aesthetic that the new Space Marines have. It's distinctive and synchronizes with the genetically-engineered soldiers part of the lore in a perfect over-the-top and funny 40k way. I'm now actually reasonably excited about playing my Space Wolves and acquiring new models for them [I haven't done so yet since my second army's first major release of my lifetime is coming up]; I want to get a Vindicator squadron and a Executioner.
Personally, I think with the state of the game that building any unit that doesn’t have some form of anti-tank weaponry is bad design. Same with any melee-only unit with no ranged weaponry. These were things that could work back through early 5E, but with super-heavies, monsters, vehicle squadrons and knights abound the average infantryman armed with a semiautomatic rifle just doesn’t cut it - even less so the axe-wielding maniac running at his opponent as he screams at the top of his lungs.
Funny story from this weekend. One of the newer players has been somewhat collecting a Crimson Fists kill team. He didn't even really know their was a difference between Primaris and Firstborn. He has just getting what he liked for the most part. He has even played both my Avenging Eagles Primaris and my Dark Angels Fallen (Dark Angel Vet models) in Kill Team too. Granted he is more of a social gamer than caring too much about the lore, but he doesn't seem to mind too much when I explain a few of the basics.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: However, when Shadowspear came out, I was like "Wow. If Space Marines had the aesthetic of Eliminators from the beginning, I would probably also play Raptors" I love the new ridiculous tacticool aesthetic that the new Space Marines have. It's distinctive and synchronizes with the genetically-engineered soldiers part of the lore in a perfect over-the-top and funny 40k way. I'm now actually reasonably excited about playing my Space Wolves and acquiring new models for them [I haven't done so yet since my second army's first major release of my lifetime is coming up]; I want to get a Vindicator squadron and a Executioner.
This is why I have a Primaris space marine army in Raptors colors though I made them a custom chapter. It started with some scouts I repainted for a friend of mine who I though would like his kill team in more military colors. I bought Shadowspear more for the CSM, but decided to paint the space marines to match the scouts. Then I decided to get First Strike so I could have Primaris and Death Guard kill teams. Working on the Reiver models changing their knives to chainswords, they quickly over took Terminators as my favorite 40k unit. Reivers just epitomize everything about 40k to me. They are well sculpted, nice looking models that combine 90's comics tacticool with all their pouches and straps while retaining a hint of fantasy (bucket boots, leather belt, etc.) that is ever present in 40k, and finally; they have that super edgy but ultimately silly skull mask which feels like they are taking themselves too seriously which comes all they way back around and is silly which pretty much any element of 40k is if you scrutinize it too closely. Reivers combined with me finding Primaris to be a blast to paint, I decided to make a full army. Now I have a decent collection of Primaris space marines and they are probably my best painted anything.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: But then surely we should technically be classing Inceptors and Aggressors together, because they wear the same armour, just with loadout differences (loadout including such aspects as their jump packs). Not to mention that GW could easily have kept Terminators as a catch-all entry. Instead, they've been split into two separate units specifically to outline that their combat doctrine is distinct from the standard Terminators.
I just don't think it's a fair argument to claim that Terminators have a broad loadout, but it's spread over multiple types of unit entry, but when Primaris do similar, it doesn't count.
But Inceptors and Aggressors are vastly different base model. Look at the rules that differ between the two. 2+ armor, relentless, deepstrike, that's the difference between Marines and Terminators right there alone. Then massive rules differences like doubleshooting, 10" move speed, fly, etc. They aren't even remotely similar base profiles. Terminators and Terminator assault squads literally have one difference ruleswise - what weapon they take in their hands. There is no comparison here, but even if there was - that would still be literally 3 different possible Primaris loadouts factoring in every single upgrade possible, and all of them affect the entire squad as whole. They lack the customizability that I love about Marines at squad level, the modular nature of them just isn't present in Primaris and we both know it. This is one of those things that you can say "I don't personally care about this" but if you are genuinely going to argue that it's not even the case I'd say you aren't even conceding the tiniest point. You have to accept that there is big differences in design between Primaris and old marines.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: If the whole "mono-weapon squads" was such an affront to the ideals of what it means to be a Space Marine, then why haven't I been seeing thread after thread on "why the Legion Space Marines aren't PROPER Astartes"? Just feels like a massive double standard to complain about the Primaris doing something, and then not a word when the Legions do the same. The identity of the Chapters are still unchanged. You still have roughly 10 Companies, of 10 Squads (or 20 Combat Squads), with each squad fulfilling a certain battlefield role, with the Battle Companies consisting of a mix of battlefield roles in order for maximum combat effectiveness. I'm sorry, but I don't think the customisation of one in every five guys in a Tactical Squad was a critical part of the Space Marine image, at least for me. I respect that people may think differently, but then I must insist - if embedded special weapons is *so important*, are Legion Astartes not what you consider to be Space Marines?
I feel like you didn't even read my response. This entire post is thoroughly countered by just quoting what I just said again, but I'll try reword it again. The legions are VASTLY different entity's to 40k. Chapters inside the legion do not match up with chapters today. I feel like you either have a lax understanding of one of the two settings to think this, but which one I'm unsure. Regardless, even if what you were saying is true - the Tactical Support Squad (the unit that went on to be the TAC squad of 40k) is exactly this. I don't expect 30k units to be customizable like I expect of 40k marine troops, and most infantry. And regardless the topic here was 40k, not 30k, so don't think that I don't have issue with some of the design of units in 30k too, pointing at this doesn't alleviate any of my dislikes of the Primaris range.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: then why haven't I been seeing thread after thread
Addressing this point concerning, well, anything - I don't know. This is my second time ever posting about Primaris in my lifetime, in a thread dedicated to the topic and polling for answers related to it. I don't care or need to know what others spend their time making thread after thread about, it has no bearing on my personal subjective opinion and you bringing it up to me (over and over) is just transparent deflection.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: End of the day, I don't think Primaris rules are much better than standard Marine ones to make me think that GW is pushing them away.
Then you're wrong. Not even by a small margin. Everything doing well is almost thoroughly Primaris. 100-200 points of Scouts are showing up in lists thanks to their cheap cost and scoring. Basically every single other unit is a mixture of vechicles and every single Primaris unit. Aggressors, Infiltrators, Eliminators, Intercessors, Repulsors, Redemptors, Invictors, etc, all getting HEAVY play. These units account for a fraction of the dex yet comprise the majority OF a majority of lists. Other than scouts and HQ, I think the only non-Primaris infantry unit to get played was a unit of Bikes in one list lol.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: I think the OP was more asking "have people started accepting Primaris, but we don't need to talk about if we personally like them or not, just what our perceptions of the community are". It's not exactly a 'discuss what we like and what we don't', because those seem to be a dime a dozen here.
Cool, well then this thread should probably get locked if that's the case as it asks a two-way question but dictates only one answer being acceptable. Do I think the members of the community have moved on from issues with the primaris range because of time? No, I don't think so at all, and it certainly hasn't for me as my issues are still just as present today. "Stop being so negative about Primaris in this thread!".
Nitro Zeus wrote: But Inceptors and Aggressors are vastly different base model. Look at the rules that differ between the two. 2+ armor, relentless, deepstrike, that's the difference between Marines and Terminators right there alone. Then massive rules differences like doubleshooting, 10" move speed, fly, etc. They aren't even remotely similar base profiles. Terminators and Terminator assault squads literally have one difference ruleswise - what weapon they take in their hands. There is no comparison here, but even if there was - that would still be literally 3 different possible Primaris loadouts factoring in every single upgrade possible, and all of them affect the entire squad as whole. They lack the customizability that I love about Marines at squad level, the modular nature of them just isn't present in Primaris and we both know it. This is one of those things that you can say "I don't personally care about this" but if you are genuinely going to argue that it's not even the case I'd say you aren't even conceding the tiniest point. You have to accept that there is big differences in design between Primaris and old marines.
Not really. They both wear Gravis Armour (which is basically Terminator Armour), and only differ in their weaponry and wargear. I don't think they're vastly that different, no more so than between Tacticals and Devastators and Assault Marines, or Assault Terminators and regular Terminators.
I genuinely don't think that that there's big differences between Primaris and Firstborn wargear.
I feel like you didn't even read my response. This entire post is thoroughly countered by just quoting what I just said again, but I'll try reword it again. The legions are VASTLY different entity's to 40k. Chapters inside the legion do not match up with chapters today. I feel like you either have a lax understanding of one of the two settings to think this, but which one I'm unsure. Regardless, even if what you were saying is true - the Tactical Support Squad (the unit that went on to be the TAC squad of 40k) is exactly this. I don't expect 30k units to be customizable like I expect of 40k marine troops, and most infantry. And regardless the topic here was 40k, not 30k, so don't think that I don't have issue with some of the design of units in 30k too, pointing at this doesn't alleviate any of my dislikes of the Primaris range.
My point is that they're still both SPACE MARINES. To argue that Primaris do not fill the Space Marine design paradigm is to argue that the Legions were not made up of Space Marines too.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: then why haven't I been seeing thread after thread
Addressing this point concerning, well, anything - I don't know. This is my second time ever posting about Primaris in my lifetime, in a thread dedicated to the topic and polling for answers related to it. I don't care or need to know what others spend their time making thread after thread about, it has no bearing on my personal subjective opinion and you bringing it up to me (over and over) is just transparent deflection.
I'm not blaming you for it, but am I not allowed to ask open-ended general questions in my posts? Or can I only talk directly to you?
It's not deflection. It's drawing attention to the pretty big double standard on Primaris doing something, and it being endlessly criticised, but those same things not being brought up when anything else does it. I'm not directing that at anyone in particular, but I think it is important to have a sense of perspective when it comes to the sheer volume of people vocally criticising Primaris.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: End of the day, I don't think Primaris rules are much better than standard Marine ones to make me think that GW is pushing them away.
Then you're wrong. Not even by a small margin. Everything doing well is almost thoroughly Primaris. 100-200 points of Scouts are showing up in lists thanks to their cheap cost and scoring. Basically every single other unit is a mixture of vechicles and every single Primaris unit. Aggressors, Infiltrators, Eliminators, Intercessors, Repulsors, Redemptors, Invictors, etc, all getting HEAVY play. These units account for a fraction of the dex yet comprise the majority OF a majority of lists. Other than scouts and HQ, I think the only non-Primaris infantry unit to get played was a unit of Bikes in one list lol.
Nitro Zeus wrote: But Inceptors and Aggressors are vastly different base model. Look at the rules that differ between the two. 2+ armor, relentless, deepstrike, that's the difference between Marines and Terminators right there alone. Then massive rules differences like doubleshooting, 10" move speed, fly, etc. They aren't even remotely similar base profiles. Terminators and Terminator assault squads literally have one difference ruleswise - what weapon they take in their hands. There is no comparison here, but even if there was - that would still be literally 3 different possible Primaris loadouts factoring in every single upgrade possible, and all of them affect the entire squad as whole. They lack the customizability that I love about Marines at squad level, the modular nature of them just isn't present in Primaris and we both know it. This is one of those things that you can say "I don't personally care about this" but if you are genuinely going to argue that it's not even the case I'd say you aren't even conceding the tiniest point. You have to accept that there is big differences in design between Primaris and old marines.
Not really. They both wear Gravis Armour (which is basically Terminator Armour), and only differ in their weaponry and wargear. I don't think they're vastly that different, no more so than between Tacticals and Devastators and Assault Marines, or Assault Terminators and regular Terminators.
I genuinely don't think that that there's big differences between Primaris and Firstborn wargear.
This is just bizarre.
You said Assault Terminators are an example of a marine unit without much squad level customization - I point out that other than the weapons you are choosing for them, they are already a subcustomization of a unit that they are otherwise identical to in every single way including rules, name, and aesthetics.
You say "well the same is true of Inceptors and Aggressors", I list all some of the plentiful reasons they are completely different, they dont have the same armor save, they dont have the same move speed, the same deployment options, the double shooting rule, the relentless rule, deepstrike rule, fly rule etc., And your response is just to say "nah not really different units, they wear the same armor in the lore". .... okay.... Well, they are to me?
On top of that, they still don't have the squad customization even if you DO include them as the same unit.
What on earth is this? Why are you so obsessed with what I do and what I don't like? Why are you trying to tell me I'm wrong for disliking an aspect of Primaris to the extent of making such reaches? Remember when you said to let people like what they like - that statement goes both ways.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: My point is that they're still both SPACE MARINES. To argue that Primaris do not fill the Space Marine design paradigm is to argue that the Legions were not made up of Space Marines too.
I said it in my initial post that I was talking about 40k Marines. I've then reclarified for you every single post that I was indeed talking about 40k marines. The Legions AREN'T made up of the Space Marines of 40k, that's EXACTLY what I'm saying. Nobody familiar with the lore would claim otherwise. So can we get back to the talk about primaris in 40k please? Thanks.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: It's not deflection. It's drawing attention to the pretty big double standard on Primaris doing something, and it being endlessly criticised, but those same things not being brought up when anything else does it. I'm not directing that at anyone in particular, but I think it is important to have a sense of perspective when it comes to the sheer volume of people vocally criticising Primaris.
Okay, cool.
In future I'm just not going to bother reading these tangents you seem to be incapable of avoiding straying into, unless they are addressing some statement I've actually made (rather than just being framed as though they are).
Sgt_Smudge wrote: End of the day, I don't think Primaris rules are much better than standard Marine ones to make me think that GW is pushing them away.
Then you're wrong. Not even by a small margin. Everything doing well is almost thoroughly Primaris. 100-200 points of Scouts are showing up in lists thanks to their cheap cost and scoring. Basically every single other unit is a mixture of vechicles and every single Primaris unit. Aggressors, Infiltrators, Eliminators, Intercessors, Repulsors, Redemptors, Invictors, etc, all getting HEAVY play. These units account for a fraction of the dex yet comprise the majority OF a majority of lists. Other than scouts and HQ, I think the only non-Primaris infantry unit to get played was a unit of Bikes in one list lol.
Two words: Leviathan Dreadnought.
Barely played at all so far, also isn't an infantry unit, nor one of the big iconic parts of the SM range to me and most people I know, in fact it's a recent addition and Forgeworld only relic dreadnought unit. Maybe you view it differently, but that's not all relevant to my personal subjective tastes.
You said Assault Terminators are an example of a marine unit without much squad level customization - I point out that other than the weapons you are choosing for them, they are already a subcustomization of a unit that they are otherwise identical to in every single way including rules, name, and aesthetics.
You say "well the same is true of Inceptors and Aggressors", I list all some of the plentiful reasons they are completely different, they dont have the same armor save, they dont have the same move speed, the same deployment options, the double shooting rule, the relentless rule, deepstrike rule, fly rule etc., And your response is just to say "nah not really different units, they wear the same armor in the lore". .... okay.... Well, they are to me?
Okay - so Assault Terminators and regular Terminators are distinct units "to me".
The reason that Assault Termies and regular Termies are separate is because of their wargear options. The reason Inceptors and Aggressors are separate is because of their wargear options. Ergo, I see no difference. If Assault Terminators were actually just folded into the Terminator Squad entry (as I think they should be, personally), then I'd concede this point, but they're simply not. Assault Terminators are regarded as a distinctly separate unit from normal Terminators, and as a result do not have mixed squad loadouts. Therefore, my point stands. Again, my initial discussion of this was to challenge and inquire into your opinion on "Primaris have mono-options, and regular Marines don't!" - by highlighting how there really isn't much difference in my eyes. Remember, as you said: "they are to me".
On top of that, they still don't have the squad customization even if you DO include them as the same unit.
What on earth is this? Why are you so obsessed with what I do and what I don't like? Why are you trying to tell me I'm wrong for disliking an aspect of Primaris to the extent of making such reaches? Remember when you said to let people like what they like - that statement goes both ways.
I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just pointing out inconsistencies with your argument. As per normal - this isn't a critique on your opinion. It's a deconstruction of things claimed to be facts. Things like "Primaris Marines not having customisation is alien to what old Marines had", when that's simply not true.
I haven't got a problem what you like or don't. It's claiming things as factual instead of just personal perception that's what I'm pointing out. I don't hide the fact that my opinion on Primaris are based on my perception of what I think Space Marines are. I just want to make sure that we're all on the same page that we're discussing our personal biases and perceptions of what Space Marines even are.
I said it in my initial post that I was talking about 40k Marines. I've then reclarified for you every single post that I was indeed talking about 40k marines. The Legions AREN'T made up of the Space Marines of 40k, that's EXACTLY what I'm saying. Nobody familiar with the lore would claim otherwise. So can we get back to the talk about primaris in 40k please? Thanks.
And I don't see that there's any difference between 30k and 40k Space Marines. They're Space Marines. What, should I be classing Primaris as 41k Marines?
There's no reason why I should be ignoring 30k Space Marines simply because they come from a different time period, because if I were doing that, surely I should be ignoring 40k Marines, because they're older than Primaris.
This whole point is to highlight the fact that we can't even settle on what a Space Marine is - hence my prior comment on not making statements as if they were facts.
Barely played at all so far,
Pardon? They've been incredibly popular for years! Hell, there's two rather divisive threads on them right now, and they seem to be in nearly every competitive SM list these days.
also isn't an infantry unit, nor one of the big iconic parts of the SM range to me and most people I know, in fact it's a recent addition and Forgeworld only relic dreadnought unit. Maybe you view it differently, but that's not all relevant to my personal subjective tastes.
Perhaps, but it IS a Space Marine non-Primaris unit. Maybe according to your personal subjective tastes, it's not a "real" Space Marine unit, fair enough, but from mine, it's clearly a part of the Space Marine range, so is relevant to *my* argument.
If you want to pick and choose what is and isn't part of the old Marine line to support your argument that Primaris are favoured in rules, fair play - but please don't pretend that you're not ignoring certain units in that.
All the Terminators need to be consolidated into just a single entry. Seems silly that no Tactical Terminator squad EVER used one dude that has one of the last Tart armors that has an Autocannon. Ever. Noooooooooo different armors must not mix!
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: All the Terminators need to be consolidated into just a single entry. Seems silly that no Tactical Terminator squad EVER used one dude that has one of the last Tart armors that has an Autocannon. Ever. Noooooooooo different armors must not mix!
Easy solution: Go back to just one kind of armour.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: All the Terminators need to be consolidated into just a single entry. Seems silly that no Tactical Terminator squad EVER used one dude that has one of the last Tart armors that has an Autocannon. Ever. Noooooooooo different armors must not mix!
Easy solution: Go back to just one kind of armour.
That was kinda my point, yes. I suppose I could've made that slightly more clear though.
New players only have the Primaris to look at, so they inevitably have accepted them.
Old players have mixed views, for aesthetic and rules reasons.
New Marines models are not problematic for me, just another example of 'scale creep'. Compared my RT (standing) Marine with the latest Primaris character, had the whole 'Ant Man' experience. Thinking of playing them as Sisters - size wise they would fit better.
New Marines rules seem full of 'gotcha' clauses. Missed the Hit roll? Have a re-roll. I have no problem with these 'movie marine' rules, just the points they (don't) cost. I'd rather play against an army with _some_ weaknesses, or be able to cope with the damage inflicted by them.
You said Assault Terminators are an example of a marine unit without much squad level customization - I point out that other than the weapons you are choosing for them, they are already a subcustomization of a unit that they are otherwise identical to in every single way including rules, name, and aesthetics.
You say "well the same is true of Inceptors and Aggressors", I list all some of the plentiful reasons they are completely different, they dont have the same armor save, they dont have the same move speed, the same deployment options, the double shooting rule, the relentless rule, deepstrike rule, fly rule etc., And your response is just to say "nah not really different units, they wear the same armor in the lore". .... okay.... Well, they are to me?
Okay - so Assault Terminators and regular Terminators are distinct units "to me".
The reason that Assault Termies and regular Termies are separate is because of their wargear options. The reason Inceptors and Aggressors are separate is because of their wargear options. Ergo, I see no difference. If Assault Terminators were actually just folded into the Terminator Squad entry (as I think they should be, personally), then I'd concede this point, but they're simply not. Assault Terminators are regarded as a distinctly separate unit from normal Terminators, and as a result do not have mixed squad loadouts. Therefore, my point stands. Again, my initial discussion of this was to challenge and inquire into your opinion on "Primaris have mono-options, and regular Marines don't!" - by highlighting how there really isn't much difference in my eyes. Remember, as you said: "they are to me".
Okay, cool. I'm unsure what you difference you think it makes to anything I've said so far, and your unwillingness to drop this just seems to highlight the fact that you aren't capable of taking a single step back on anything here. But thanks for sharing your completely mind-melting definition of how Aggressors and Inceptors are the same base unit, but two different weapon load outs for Terminators aren't. It's pretty irrational, but you're entitled to your opinion, so let's just agree to disagree!
Sgt_Smudge wrote: I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just pointing out inconsistencies with your argument.
LOL. You really said that with a straight face didn't you?
Sgt_Smudge wrote: As per normal - this isn't a critique on your opinion. It's a deconstruction of things claimed to be facts. Things like "Primaris Marines not having customisation is alien to what old Marines had", when that's simply not true.
I haven't got a problem what you like or don't. It's claiming things as factual instead of just personal perception that's what I'm pointing out.
But that's absolutely and unmistakably not what you're freaking out about here. I've said about 30 times this is entirely subjective and all my personal opinion, and that new marines don't capture what old marines did for me personally. You've had to trim this stuff out of quotes to make extremely dishonest attempts at pretending otherwise, but nobody is fooled.
You're blatantly just unhappy that someone dislikes something you like. Get over it.
said it in my initial post that I was talking about 40k Marines. I've then reclarified for you every single post that I was indeed talking about 40k marines. The Legions AREN'T made up of the Space Marines of 40k, that's EXACTLY what I'm saying. Nobody familiar with the lore would claim otherwise. So can we get back to the talk about primaris in 40k please? Thanks.
And I don't see that there's any difference between 30k and 40k Space Marines. They're Space Marines. What, should I be classing Primaris as 41k Marines?
There's no reason why I should be ignoring 30k Space Marines simply because they come from a different time period, because if I were doing that, surely I should be ignoring 40k Marines, because they're older than Primaris.
.... I'm sorry... did you just read what you said... ? There's no reason that that we should be ignoring 30k marines for being different because they are from a different era, because that would mean that 40k marines are different to Primaris, since they are from a different time period?
My entire point is that 40k marines are different to the new Primaris! What did you think we were saying? They ARE from a different era, and they are different, and I'm saying I like the design of the old ones better! It's literally what the topic of the thread is about.
You're so caught up in not backing down from this absurd argument you've began that you are just arguing for the sake of being right, without even considering what you are saying anymore.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: And I don't see that there's any difference between 30k and 40k Space Marines.
Okay, cool. So you're unfamiliar with the setting. That's all you had to say.
Look up "Codex Astartes" for starters. And no, its not the rulebook that you use to push around toy men across the table. The difference in setting is vast, as are the rules to reflect it, and the issues you describe aren't even present anyway, but you continually ignore that, so have fun "pointing out inconsistencies" I guess.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: they seem to be in nearly every competitive SM list these days.
They are in a grand total of 2 of the 13 SM lists to place so far. Both were the gimmicky "leviathan spam" list.
Like most things competitive, what actually does well competitively does not reflect what places like dakka are making thread after thread complaining about. We had what, 4 threads about the Kelermorph being OP last release? Leviathan isn't even halfway to there yet. It's irrelevant though, as it could be in every list, and my point would remain unchanged.
also isn't an infantry unit, nor one of the big iconic parts of the SM range to me and most people I know, in fact it's a recent addition and Forgeworld only relic dreadnought unit. Maybe you view it differently, but that's not all relevant to my personal subjective tastes.
Perhaps, but it IS a Space Marine non-Primaris unit. Maybe according to your personal subjective tastes, it's not a "real" Space Marine unit, fair enough, but from mine, it's clearly a part of the Space Marine range, so is relevant to *my* argument.
If you want to pick and choose what is and isn't part of the old Marine line to support your argument that Primaris are favoured in rules, fair play - but please don't pretend that you're not ignoring certain units in that.
I didn't pretend anything of the sort - I outright said here that my complaint is that I feel like they are sidelining the things that are, and I quote AGAIN, "are the most iconic parts of 40k to me personally." If you find this a difficult topic to argue, that's probably because it's impossible seeing as it's entirely subjective feedback, yet you're literally sitting here trying to tell me that mine is wrong.
Anyway, this was productive, but you seem like the strongest candidate possible for utilising dakkadakka's blocklist, so I'm going to ahead and call it here. Today has only served to reinforce the stereotype for me, and I'd rather distance myself from that.
Primaris are literally 'bigger and cooler' Marines.
I'm not seeing it. They don't play like traditional marines, and it's pretty clear that they have been designed so as not to take the place of traditional marines. They are highly specialized. Hellblasters are not better Devastators, that can do different things. Intercessors are not better Tacticals -- their lack of special and heavy weapons means that they cannot fill that roll. There is no assault marine equivalent, And so on.
Primaris are literally 'bigger and cooler' Marines.
I'm not seeing it. They don't play like traditional marines, and it's pretty clear that they have been designed so as not to take the place of traditional marines. They are highly specialized. Hellblasters are not better Devastators, that can do different things. Intercessors are not better Tacticals -- their lack of special and heavy weapons means that they cannot fill that roll. There is no assault marine equivalent, And so on.
careful, to say that is heresy for some people around these parts
As somebody who has known 40k since launch in 1987 and just recently bought Dark Imperium after 20 years away(but generally abreast of a lot of things due to Horus Heresy Novels etc)....I can honestly say I find Primers baffling.
where are the Assault Marines, where are the devastators? I get it...im old school but I just dont get it. Intercessors??
Im only gluing/painting atm...will look at the rules after but all very alien to me...and we all know the alien is unclean.
VAYASEN wrote: where are the Assault Marines, where are the devastators? I get it...im old school but I just dont get it. Intercessors??
Tactical / Assault / Devastator has been updated to Battleline / Close Support / Fire Support, with several (Primaris) options for each - Intercessors & Infiltrators are both Battleline units, for example.
VAYASEN wrote: As somebody who has known 40k since launch in 1987 and just recently bought Dark Imperium after 20 years away(but generally abreast of a lot of things due to Horus Heresy Novels etc)....I can honestly say I find Primers baffling.
where are the Assault Marines, where are the devastators? I get it...im old school but I just dont get it. Intercessors??
Im only gluing/painting atm...will look at the rules after but all very alien to me...and we all know the alien is unclean.
Intercessors is an in-universe thematic name (an intercessor is someone who intervened on behalf of someone usually through prayer) reflecting their arrival after the Great Rift formed. I expect the name to get changed at some point when the old SMS are either gone or they are integrated more fully.
Nitro Zeus wrote:Okay, cool. I'm unsure what you difference you think it makes to anything I've said so far, and your unwillingness to drop this just seems to highlight the fact that you aren't capable of taking a single step back on anything here. But thanks for sharing your completely mind-melting definition of how Aggressors and Inceptors are the same base unit, but two different weapon load outs for Terminators aren't. It's pretty irrational, but you're entitled to your opinion, so let's just agree to disagree!
Agreed. It's clearly a difference in perception.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just pointing out inconsistencies with your argument.
LOL. You really said that with a straight face didn't you?
That's not saying you're wrong. If your opinion is XYZ, that's cool. It's just that said opinion is inconsistent with similar things, and I wish to get an understanding of why that is.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: As per normal - this isn't a critique on your opinion. It's a deconstruction of things claimed to be facts. Things like "Primaris Marines not having customisation is alien to what old Marines had", when that's simply not true.
I haven't got a problem what you like or don't. It's claiming things as factual instead of just personal perception that's what I'm pointing out.
But that's absolutely and unmistakably not what you're freaking out about here. I've said about 30 times this is entirely subjective and all my personal opinion, and that new marines don't capture what old marines did for me personally. You've had to trim this stuff out of quotes to make extremely dishonest attempts at pretending otherwise, but nobody is fooled.
You're blatantly just unhappy that someone dislikes something you like. Get over it.
That's really not the case. While I respect your personal opinions (hell, I'm a massive advocate for the importance of opinion over anything else), that doesn't mean I won't point out things claimed as factual. My trimming of quotes isn't an attempt to misrepresent your argument at all - it's to make sure that we're not leaving massive ziggurats of text blocks. As you said yourself - it's not fooling anyone, because it's not hard to go back and see the full comment. There's no need to believe that I'm misrepresenting your argument.
I honestly don't care if you don't like something I do - but is challenging an opinion not accepted? I'm not attacking you, or your beliefs beyond asking a question to get an understanding of why there's a inconsistency in it. It's not personal.
said it in my initial post that I was talking about 40k Marines. I've then reclarified for you every single post that I was indeed talking about 40k marines. The Legions AREN'T made up of the Space Marines of 40k, that's EXACTLY what I'm saying. Nobody familiar with the lore would claim otherwise. So can we get back to the talk about primaris in 40k please? Thanks.
And I don't see that there's any difference between 30k and 40k Space Marines. They're Space Marines. What, should I be classing Primaris as 41k Marines?
There's no reason why I should be ignoring 30k Space Marines simply because they come from a different time period, because if I were doing that, surely I should be ignoring 40k Marines, because they're older than Primaris.
.... I'm sorry... did you just read what you said... ? There's no reason that that we should be ignoring 30k marines for being different because they are from a different era, because that would mean that 40k marines are different to Primaris, since they are from a different time period?
My entire point is that 40k marines are different to the new Primaris! What did you think we were saying? They ARE from a different era, and they are different, and I'm saying I like the design of the old ones better! It's literally what the topic of the thread is about.
You claimed that the Primaris Marines had a distinctly non-Space Marine "one dimensional loadout". I asked "what does that make 30k Marines who also have a one-dimensional loadout?" You're saying we should just ignore 30k Marines, because they're not from the same time period - but why? Are they not Space Marines? Why does them being older affect if they're Space Marines or not?
Remember - your initial comment was "Also, their one dimensional loadouts is antithetical to everything marines imo." That's fine - but you haven't specified 40k Marines. You just said "Marines" - and I don't see why 30k Marines are not also Space Marines.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: And I don't see that there's any difference between 30k and 40k Space Marines.
Okay, cool. So you're unfamiliar with the setting. That's all you had to say.
No, you're ignoring it. It's okay to say "I don't class Legion Astartes as Space Marines" - it gives me an idea on what your view is. Unfortunately, just saying "30K IS IRRELEVANT!" doesn't help with that.
Also, so much for letting people have their own opinions, eh? Claiming that I'm "unfamiliar with the setting" because my opinion is different from yours? I've made it clear that this is entirely subjective and all my personal opinion, and that 40k Marines are functionally the same as 30k Marines for me.
Look up "Codex Astartes" for starters. And no, its not the rulebook that you use to push around toy men across the table. The difference in setting is vast, as are the rules to reflect it, and the issues you describe aren't even present anyway, but you continually ignore that, so have fun "pointing out inconsistencies" I guess.
You're saying that like it's a fact. That's your opinion. I respect yours. Now respect mine, instead of needing to get condescending.
Also, I'm not sure we're talking about the same aspect of 30k vs 40k. I'm not talking about every part of 40k/30k being the same, I'm talking about their combat doctrines - which I don't think have changed massively. Tacticals are still Tacticals.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: they seem to be in nearly every competitive SM list these days.
They are in a grand total of 2 of the 13 SM lists to place so far. Both were the gimmicky "leviathan spam" list.
Like most things competitive, what actually does well competitively does not reflect what places like dakka are making thread after thread complaining about. We had what, 4 threads about the Kelermorph being OP last release? Leviathan isn't even halfway to there yet. It's irrelevant though, as it could be in every list, and my point would remain unchanged.
Likewise, I'm not seeing mono-Primaris lists taking anything by storm. Most of it seems to be dreadnoughts.
also isn't an infantry unit, nor one of the big iconic parts of the SM range to me and most people I know, in fact it's a recent addition and Forgeworld only relic dreadnought unit. Maybe you view it differently, but that's not all relevant to my personal subjective tastes.
Perhaps, but it IS a Space Marine non-Primaris unit. Maybe according to your personal subjective tastes, it's not a "real" Space Marine unit, fair enough, but from mine, it's clearly a part of the Space Marine range, so is relevant to *my* argument.
If you want to pick and choose what is and isn't part of the old Marine line to support your argument that Primaris are favoured in rules, fair play - but please don't pretend that you're not ignoring certain units in that.
I didn't pretend anything of the sort - I outright said here that my complaint is that I feel like they are sidelining the things that are, and I quote AGAIN, "are the most iconic parts of 40k to me personally." If you find this a difficult topic to argue, that's probably because it's impossible seeing as it's entirely subjective feedback, yet you're literally sitting here trying to tell me that mine is wrong.
I'm not saying it's wrong. I'm just pointing out that, in *my* opinion, I don't think they are removing those things. There's no need to take that as a personal attack.
Anyway, this was productive, but you seem like the strongest candidate possible for utilising dakkadakka's blocklist, so I'm going to ahead and call it here. Today has only served to reinforce the stereotype for me, and I'd rather distance myself from that.
By all means, do as you will.
VAYASEN wrote:where are the Assault Marines, where are the devastators? I get it...im old school but I just dont get it. Intercessors??
Reivers are the closest equivalent to Assault Marines - pistol and close combat weapon, rapid redeployment shenanigans (don't forget, Assault Marines don't all have jump packs!).
Hellblasters are the closest to Devastators - heavy weaponry, strong firepower. Alternatively, Eliminators with las-fusils aren't far from lascannon Devastators.
Intercessors are your Tactical Marine equivalents.
Nitro Zeus wrote:Okay, cool. I'm unsure what you difference you think it makes to anything I've said so far, and your unwillingness to drop this just seems to highlight the fact that you aren't capable of taking a single step back on anything here. But thanks for sharing your completely mind-melting definition of how Aggressors and Inceptors are the same base unit, but two different weapon load outs for Terminators aren't. It's pretty irrational, but you're entitled to your opinion, so let's just agree to disagree!
Agreed. It's clearly a difference in perception.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just pointing out inconsistencies with your argument.
LOL. You really said that with a straight face didn't you?
That's not saying you're wrong. If your opinion is XYZ, that's cool. It's just that said opinion is inconsistent with similar things, and I wish to get an understanding of why that is.
listen maybe we got off on the wrong foot. Let's just agree to disagree. As I said, I like the new range overall, I just have a couple of issues with Primaris in some aspects but not all.
Moriarty wrote: New players only have the Primaris to look at, so they inevitably have accepted them.
Demonstrably wrong. The codices are still full of Old Marines and they're still on the shelves.
Old players have mixed views, for aesthetic and rules reasons.
New Marines models are not problematic for me, just another example of 'scale creep'. Compared my RT (standing) Marine with the latest Primaris character, had the whole 'Ant Man' experience. Thinking of playing them as Sisters - size wise they would fit better.
And I'm thinking about playing my 2E Cadians as Grots, after all the size would fit better!
You can't honestly think that they're supposed to keep things 'in scale' with releases from RT, right?
New Marines rules seem full of 'gotcha' clauses. Missed the Hit roll? Have a re-roll. I have no problem with these 'movie marine' rules, just the points they (don't) cost. I'd rather play against an army with _some_ weaknesses, or be able to cope with the damage inflicted by them.
The rerolls are present on the non-Primaris characters as well.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: All the Terminators need to be consolidated into just a single entry. Seems silly that no Tactical Terminator squad EVER used one dude that has one of the last Tart armors that has an Autocannon. Ever. Noooooooooo different armors must not mix!
They should definitively be one entry with a choice of weapons. As each suit is a special work of technological art they should have different marks mixed in like tactical squads.
Primaris seems to focus combined arms on a unit by unit level, while letting the terminators have any mix they want in the unit can scratch that customization itch.
I wonder if they will let terminators be how they are, they seem to the same scale as Primaris or they will go to an extra-bulky version?
It seems strange to see Aggressor suits that big and not have a 2+ save.
What am I thinking?, of course a Terminator cannot be outdone by an Aggressor for size.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Exactly. As it is, it's unnecessary bloat of units entries just because.
Can't sell and make £££ without that bloat.
Can't sell and make $$$ with Terminators, period.
A different entry for each of the armour variants isn't a big deal. Strictly speaking, my issue is the fact that Assault and 'Vanilla' Terminator Squads can't overlap. Combat Squadding is a thing--and there's no reason to ever do it when you can just do MSU of the kind you want instead.
Moriarty wrote: New players only have the Primaris to look at, so they inevitably have accepted them.
Demonstrably wrong. The codices are still full of Old Marines and they're still on the shelves.
although with new players the first Marines they see are useally Primaris (given that the first they see are useally the ones on the demo table from Dark Imperium) and they don't have attachment to old marines so proably prefer primaris.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Exactly. As it is, it's unnecessary bloat of units entries just because.
Can't sell and make £££ without that bloat.
Can't sell and make $$$ with Terminators, period.
A different entry for each of the armour variants isn't a big deal. Strictly speaking, my issue is the fact that Assault and 'Vanilla' Terminator Squads can't overlap. Combat Squadding is a thing--and there's no reason to ever do it when you can just do MSU of the kind you want instead.
It's a big deal because of it being unnecessary. A single Terminator entry that wasn't terrible is something most people would get behind.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Exactly. As it is, it's unnecessary bloat of units entries just because.
Can't sell and make £££ without that bloat.
Can't sell and make $$$ with Terminators, period.
A different entry for each of the armour variants isn't a big deal. Strictly speaking, my issue is the fact that Assault and 'Vanilla' Terminator Squads can't overlap. Combat Squadding is a thing--and there's no reason to ever do it when you can just do MSU of the kind you want instead.
It's a big deal because of it being unnecessary. A single Terminator entry that wasn't terrible is something most people would get behind.
That's cool. It doesn't address my own issue, but cool?
I'd rather we ditch Assault Terminator Squads, roll their options into the Terminator Squad entry and focus on making Terminator Armour, period, something that doesn't suck. Mixed units can be problematic, and if we go that route I'd rather see it as a special unit for the former Legions rather than just a 'vanilla' rule.
Ok as a player who hasnt played for 20 years....now the owner of Dark Imperium.
This question applied to Primaris but I guess old skool marines too.
For Tactical(Intecessors now??).....what is the point of the huge backpack they wear? Assault marines who could 'jump' in the old days had much bigger packs.
A normal marine has this huge jumpy packy thing but is it just aesthetics?
Marines have always ahd back packs, and these are, as crimson said primarily power packs for the armor. Some sources have said the vents in them can be used for thrust in low gravity enviroments. but we only really see signs of that with the new supressors. assault marines have, as you noticed much larger jump packs.
Wulfmar wrote: The new marines look good. The body proportions are more sensible and less awkward.
The new marines are ridiculously over-priced compared to other models.
For this reason, hard pass.
Agreed. Old marines are just terrible at this point. I've stuck to easy-to-build and eBay for most of my primaris buys so far. Doesn't help that re-sellers are trying to sell easy to build kits at the same price as full kits, but that's a topic for another discussion.
I still like the old marine kits. I'll say though I kind of started out the game disliking how marines looked for the most part, it's grown on me decades later. Are the nu marines better looking, I'd say mostly yes, though I'm not a huge aggressor look fan. I still enjoy the visuals of my old marines, especially the tanks as they call back to a historic vibe where as the new floaty tanks just feel more generic sci fi space man battle wagon. Not to devolve into a whole thing, just my likes and dislikes. Also enjoy the more updated old dread models over the redemptor which remind me of Robocop 2. Which is fine, but each time I see it I think " Kane, your coming with me ! "
The day that Marines were given an Ork blood transplant, so that they grew depending on importance, was when GW threw scale out the window.
I have no problems with Primaris, especially as they appear to represent "real" marines, as told in the stories. But that LTs are bigger than normal Primaris, followed by the captain, etc up to the big Gullyman, is dumb and stops me from getting into them.
Of course, they are the future. But my Ultramarines remain relatively pure. The flying aggressors look like floaty Termies, and the Standard bearer looks like a "big bro" on the battle field. The other primaris will all be put into their own chapter, as they are out of scale, with time.
Since the Primaris were released I´ve bought a tactical squad, two devastators, two scout boxes and a Speeder. No stand alone Primaris though. Nothing appeals.
Laffin wrote: But that LTs are bigger than normal Primaris, followed by the captain, etc up to the big Gullyman, is dumb and stops me from getting into them.
What the hell are you talking about? Apart of Guilliman none of this is true.
Laffin wrote: But that LTs are bigger than normal Primaris, followed by the captain, etc up to the big Gullyman, is dumb and stops me from getting into them.
What the hell are you talking about? Apart of Guilliman none of this is true.
Laffin wrote: But that LTs are bigger than normal Primaris, followed by the captain, etc up to the big Gullyman, is dumb and stops me from getting into them.
What the hell are you talking about? Apart of Guilliman none of this is true.
Laffin wrote: But that LTs are bigger than normal Primaris, followed by the captain, etc up to the big Gullyman, is dumb and stops me from getting into them.
What the hell are you talking about? Apart of Guilliman none of this is true.
40mm base?
I got some Genestealer Cult Neophytes with heavy weapons that would like to have a word about that. A bigger base is just that a bigger base doesn't affect the size of the model.
Funny, I am putting together some 30 Primais Intercessors and noticed a few things:
- The easy to build has some rather obvious items that are molded to the body, holstered pistols have pretty thick grip on them.
- The models are posed with the dynamic wide stance so they have the occasional same problem as the old marines on 24mm bases: their toes hang off the edge (eventually shift to 40mm bases later so history repeats itself??).
As an aside, I like the protective collar on these guys but it makes painting the ear plate and side mouth hoses a pain: definitely paint the heads prior to gluing them on.
No comment on keeping the ams off to paint the chest eagle... ever since I built a ship in the bottle I have never been the same.
The larger models have these nice panel lines, little ports here and there, there is opportunity to have a more "busy" looking model if you wish.
I am not liking the curved clear flyer bases BUT they are a good hard plastic so they get points for that, I build up a bit of material into the base and use brass rod, paint those matt-black and they are hardly noticed.
Funny to see the statement "no negativity in this topic!", the main source of negativity other than trolling is no-one wants to see their army go obsolete.
I think my friend still is holding a grudge since his Squats were umm, "Squatted".
That may soon be the new name for old marines "Squat marines" seems to fit.
They are trying to diversify the change to the new guys.
There is the originals that were made but they only fill one combat role (had not worked up through the ranks).
The "ascended" like Calgar can take an old marine and update them.
The new process can now roll-out to new initiates so all bases are covered to mothball the "Squat-marines".
And the lack of versatility is still boring.
I "think" their intent was to yet-again simplify the game by having only one weapon type per squad.
I find rolling different coloured dice work well for differing weapons but that is just me.
The vehicles for them are appalling and childish.
The combat-role does seem to be a bit confused on these things.
The back corner turrets on a turret are what made me question their sanity (Repulsor Executioner).
They still feel like GW has no clue what they wanted or still want to do with them except make money.
They are at a stage to be able to re-write Space Marines to how they always wanted them to be (like 7' tall to scale).
BUT they do not want to kill what came before so they cannot quite make them completely different.
I keep feeling like their decisions are to get as much stop-gap stuff out there until they can fill/mature the line.
Hence, why the vehicles seem a bit like a swiss-army knife: useful in most circumstances, master of none.
Serafimov86 wrote: There is still a lot of animosity over the way Primaris were released and their lack of a classic marine aesthetic with all the adornments
Classic Marines don't really have that many adornments in the base kits, and what there is is mostly optional. The only beef I have is the purity seals on some of the legs, but those are easy to carve off.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I legit hate any bling like that. It irks me for whatever reason.
That’s why they were quite explicit when talking about the introduction of Primaris that they are leaving most all the bling off so people like you could have free reign, and others could add as much as they want. They have been explicit in this with Vox-Cast.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I legit hate any bling like that. It irks me for whatever reason.
That’s why they were quite explicit when talking about the introduction of Primaris that they are leaving most all the bling off so people like you could have free reign, and others could add as much as they want. They have been explicit in this with Vox-Cast.
which is a really good thing. they can leave the bling off and then put out upgrade kits with chapter specific bling. my ONLY issue with Primaris that way is due to the way they're designed there's not gonna be a nice easy way to swap out a chest peice allowing for a chapter specific aquilla like you could do with old Marines. that's really my biggest complaint about Primaris. (pretty small complaint innit?)
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I legit hate any bling like that. It irks me for whatever reason.
That’s why they were quite explicit when talking about the introduction of Primaris that they are leaving most all the bling off so people like you could have free reign, and others could add as much as they want. They have been explicit in this with Vox-Cast.
which is a really good thing. they can leave the bling off and then put out upgrade kits with chapter specific bling. my ONLY issue with Primaris that way is due to the way they're designed there's not gonna be a nice easy way to swap out a chest peice allowing for a chapter specific aquilla like you could do with old Marines. that's really my biggest complaint about Primaris. (pretty small complaint innit?)
I honestly hate the Aquila too. When I finally get to purchasing Aggressors and Centurions I'll be taking a good amount of time to carve them off.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I legit hate any bling like that. It irks me for whatever reason.
That’s why they were quite explicit when talking about the introduction of Primaris that they are leaving most all the bling off so people like you could have free reign, and others could add as much as they want. They have been explicit in this with Vox-Cast.
which is a really good thing. they can leave the bling off and then put out upgrade kits with chapter specific bling. my ONLY issue with Primaris that way is due to the way they're designed there's not gonna be a nice easy way to swap out a chest peice allowing for a chapter specific aquilla like you could do with old Marines. that's really my biggest complaint about Primaris. (pretty small complaint innit?)
I honestly hate the Aquila too. When I finally get to purchasing Aggressors and Centurions I'll be taking a good amount of time to carve them off.
I don't hate it, but it was neat to have some varity among old Marines. And it was nice when you had some slightly differnt styling on differant chapters chest plates. the blood drop on BAs, the wolf head on SWs etc.
to the Apothecary though.
