That's... an interesting approach.
Not sure that multiple reminders that the End Times happened, this world is dead and all this is pointless is the best way to drum up excitement for the upcoming game.
Wish they'd start talking about the actual game, what factions will be playable and what kinds of models we can expect rather than one-sentence blurbs on Imperial provinces.
Looks like a huge emphasis on the Empire civil war, possibly 4 Empire factions as the main focus and a ton of human miniatures that will also just happen to make up the bulk of the cities of sigmar release for AoS?
Getting strong "Horus Heresy, but fantasy" vibes.
I'm just pleased that beastmen are mentioned, although I accept it probably means ungors will change their base size for the 4th time.
That's... an interesting approach.
Not sure that multiple reminders that the End Times happened, this world is dead and all this is pointless is the best way to drum up excitement for the upcoming game.
Wish they'd start talking about the actual game, what factions will be playable and what kinds of models we can expect rather than one-sentence blurbs on Imperial provinces.
Well if the design is still at the sketches phase there aren't any models as yet ready for us to get excited over. Plus GW doesn't want to drop models that might not be on sale for another year or two.
What I think is happening is that GW is actually saying:
1. no they are not retconing AOS 2. They are not going to do something like 9th Age and be called out on copying it.
3. Get called out for another Storm of Chaos move by retconing those results - again.
4. They don’t want to make models for characters who are alive in AOS (Alarielle, Neferata, Etcetc). So they are doing a completely new model line for this game.
scarletsquig wrote: Looks like a huge emphasis on the Empire civil war, possibly 4 Empire factions as the main focus and a ton of human miniatures that will also just happen to make up the bulk of the cities of sigmar release for AoS?
Getting strong "Horus Heresy, but fantasy" vibes.
I'm just pleased that beastmen are mentioned, although I accept it probably means ungors will change their base size for the 4th time.
There is only one problem here:
Space Marines have appeal no matter what colour they have. Empire state troops are boring from the getgo. I will happily avoid this game with all my non-Empire armies in 9th Age.
scarletsquig wrote: Looks like a huge emphasis on the Empire civil war, possibly 4 Empire factions as the main focus and a ton of human miniatures that will also just happen to make up the bulk of the cities of sigmar release for AoS?
Getting strong "Horus Heresy, but fantasy" vibes.
I'm just pleased that beastmen are mentioned, although I accept it probably means ungors will change their base size for the 4th time.
The focus on the Imperial Civil War has been sort of obvious from as soon as the time-period it's set was made apparent. I do think it will carry quite a bit of the early releases and there could well be crossover with the dawn-crusade (or whatever it's called) stuff. I'm not sure it's going to be all Empire though, there's clearly been some substantive work done on Bretonnia, in terms of the art and lore if nothing else. The articles have often made reference to the unprecedented amount of work that's gone into The Old World project; much of that could just be marketing spiel but I'd hope for at least the same level of releases as Heresy 2.0 got at launch and hopefully that can be spread across multiple factions. It's not like some couldn't work as dual-purpose kits for both ToW and AoS; Chaos/Skaven/Vampires/Lizardmen/Daughters of Khaine etc. could all have some updated sets that would just need a base change.
Regardless, even if all we get is some actually decent Empire sets (the artwork in the recent article is a good start) then my inner Mordhiemer will be delighted at least.
That's... an interesting approach.
Not sure that multiple reminders that the End Times happened, this world is dead and all this is pointless is the best way to drum up excitement for the upcoming game.
Wish they'd start talking about the actual game, what factions will be playable and what kinds of models we can expect rather than one-sentence blurbs on Imperial provinces.
To me, I read the reminder of the End Times happening as an effort to promote unity between AoS players and WHTOW fans. How the 2 games will be linked (if any such connection is actually planned) hasn’t been revealed yet but it’s no secret there is or has been at the very least a lot of contention between WHFB and AoS players. Goes without saying the survival of the game depends not just on sales but if those 2 groups can coexist beyond cannibalization fears.
of course there is a link between TOW and AoS same as there is for Horus Heresy and 40k, the setting of one game is 10.000 years in the past of the other game and it remind people that AoS is the future of the TOW setting and not its own thing
if this is good, we will see
(did GW also advertise the HH game with "Horus will be defeated and everything is already done"?)
The Grand County of Osterland
Ruled from the great city of Middenheim by Count Sigismund Ulric, Osterland is home to the Wolf Emperors of the north, fierce devotees of Ulric.
Did I miss something?
So either this is a very bad typo, the Designer have no clue of the background, or we already see the first changes to the setting making a much larger split-off Empire of the North
scarletsquig wrote: Looks like a huge emphasis on the Empire civil war, possibly 4 Empire factions as the main focus and a ton of human miniatures that will also just happen to make up the bulk of the cities of sigmar release for AoS?
Getting strong "Horus Heresy, but fantasy" vibes.
I'm just pleased that beastmen are mentioned, although I accept it probably means ungors will change their base size for the 4th time.
The focus on the Imperial Civil War has been sort of obvious from as soon as the time-period it's set was made apparent. I do think it will carry quite a bit of the early releases and there could well be crossover with the dawn-crusade (or whatever it's called) stuff. I'm not sure it's going to be all Empire though, there's clearly been some substantive work done on Bretonnia, in terms of the art and lore if nothing else. The articles have often made reference to the unprecedented amount of work that's gone into The Old World project; much of that could just be marketing spiel but I'd hope for at least the same level of releases as Heresy 2.0 got at launch and hopefully that can be spread across multiple factions. It's not like some couldn't work as dual-purpose kits for both ToW and AoS; Chaos/Skaven/Vampires/Lizardmen/Daughters of Khaine etc. could all have some updated sets that would just need a base change.
Regardless, even if all we get is some actually decent Empire sets (the artwork in the recent article is a good start) then my inner Mordhiemer will be delighted at least.
Somehow the stuff they presented so far feels much more like the background hype for a roleplaying setting rather than background for a mass-battle game. More skirmishy, close-combatty, less cannons and dragons and giants.
That's... an interesting approach.
Not sure that multiple reminders that the End Times happened, this world is dead and all this is pointless is the best way to drum up excitement for the upcoming game.
Wish they'd start talking about the actual game, what factions will be playable and what kinds of models we can expect rather than one-sentence blurbs on Imperial provinces.
To me, I read the reminder of the End Times happening as an effort to promote unity between AoS players and WHTOW fans. How the 2 games will be linked (if any such connection is actually planned) hasn’t been revealed yet but it’s no secret there is or has been at the very least a lot of contention between WHFB and AoS players. Goes without saying the survival of the game depends not just on sales but if those 2 groups can coexist beyond cannibalization fears.
That's not a view I've ever considered. Reminding people of schisms doesn't, in my experience, promote unity.
---
@Tsagualsa-- same. They mention the upcoming chaos invasion, but that feels like almost entirely background. The mention of beasts and O&G makes me hope I can bring out my beastmen army (3000 points fully painted, plus some extras I never got around to after the end, though I won't be rebasing ever again), but I'm not sure it isn't window dressing for the skirmishes of the four emperors, or whatever. I'd really like it if they just told me one way or the other.
Cataphract wrote: What I think is happening is that GW is actually saying:
1. no they are not retconing AOS 2. They are not going to do something like 9th Age and be called out on copying it.
3. Get called out for another Storm of Chaos move by retconing those results - again.
4. They don’t want to make models for characters who are alive in AOS (Alarielle, Neferata, Etcetc). So they are doing a completely new model line for this game.
They are not trying to spite WFB players.
Yeah that is entirely the impression I got. Good idea for them to do that.
Not sure that multiple reminders that the End Times happened, this world is dead and all this is pointless is the best way to drum up excitement for the upcoming game.
+1
For me, the only way for this game to feel relevant is if I just ignore the aos-related (and clearly fictional) ”future” of the world (the same way as forgetting about ever seeing the last Aliens movies is the only way to appreciate the first ones again). I.e. treating ”fantasy in space” aka AOS as ”The world that will never be”.
It's an unwinnable situation. Either GW says nothing and then clickbait channels keep promoting the idea that AoS is dead which feeds back to customers both new and old or GW says "shut up AoS is still happening" and the clickbait channels whinge that GW is bullying WHFB players which can impact the return for those legacy players.
As for the non-Empire factions, if you think of it like HH the first 4 Legions and Mechanicum came first in Book 1 and by Book 9 we had all 18 Legions, Talons, Mechanicum, Knights, Solar Aux, Militia, and Daemons. Each one was tied to specific battles or campaigns where they played a key role (Prospero for the Talons or Signus where Daemons first showed up). Could be that if there is only the Empire + Brettonia on release it could see the other factions released later on.
That's... an interesting approach.
Not sure that multiple reminders that the End Times happened, this world is dead and all this is pointless is the best way to drum up excitement for the upcoming game.
Wish they'd start talking about the actual game, what factions will be playable and what kinds of models we can expect rather than one-sentence blurbs on Imperial provinces.
Gert wrote: It's an unwinnable situation. Either GW says nothing and then clickbait channels keep promoting the idea that AoS is dead which feeds back to customers both new and old or GW says "shut up AoS is still happening" and the clickbait channels whinge that GW is bullying WHFB players which can impact the return for those legacy players.
As for the non-Empire factions, if you think of it like HH the first 4 Legions and Mechanicum came first in Book 1 and by Book 9 we had all 18 Legions, Talons, Mechanicum, Knights, Solar Aux, Militia, and Daemons. Each one was tied to specific battles or campaigns where they played a key role (Prospero for the Talons or Signus where Daemons first showed up). Could be that if there is only the Empire + Brettonia on release it could see the other factions released later on.
I guess it depends on whether they’re dusting off the old moulds or not.
As discussed at length before, there are pros and cons to doing that. Here’s a selection.
Pros
I can dig out my Ogres and get playing straight away. As can anyone with a vintage force once they get rules (I suspect we can expect at least Get You By rules at launch)
This leads to Instant Player Base. A visibly played game is self-advertising. It may even tempt folk who walked when AoS dropped to get back in, buying a new force.
Cons
The Pros above don’t necessarily translate into decent enough sales, especially if the flagship forces don’t particularly require fresh investment, as you’re then pinning hopes on any updated sculpts being Irresistible.
So you may end up with a widely played game that just isn’t bringing in the pennies.
But I still think they’ll go for that. It keeps production costs down, as you don’t need to reproduce everything from the ground up, allowing you to focus on Stuff That Needed Doing 15 Years Ago, Let Alone Now (such as, I dunno, to take pick one at random, Imperial Knightly Orders. Yeeesh!), and Oooh That’s New/Not Been Seen For Decades (city specific Greatsword equivalents, War Wagons) stuff, to part those with existing collections from their cash monies.
scarletsquig wrote: Looks like a huge emphasis on the Empire civil war, possibly 4 Empire factions as the main focus and a ton of human miniatures that will also just happen to make up the bulk of the cities of sigmar release for AoS?
Getting strong "Horus Heresy, but fantasy" vibes.
I'm just pleased that beastmen are mentioned, although I accept it probably means ungors will change their base size for the 4th time.
There is only one problem here:
Space Marines have appeal no matter what colour they have. Empire state troops are boring from the getgo. I will happily avoid this game with all my non-Empire armies in 9th Age.
Boring to you. Just like i know plenty to whom marines are boring as hell.
Why would anyone ever read from the old world project that age of sigmar was dead?
They aren't competing games. Age of sigmar isn't and has never been a substitute for warhammer fantasy battles. The two games have completely different rule sets. It's part of why some people had (or have) such an issue with age of sigmar, because they flushed WFB and didn't replace it with something remotely analogous.
Not sure that multiple reminders that the End Times happened, this world is dead and all this is pointless is the best way to drum up excitement for the upcoming game.
+1
For me, the only way for this game to feel relevant is if I just ignore the aos-related (and clearly fictional) ”future” of the world (the same way as forgetting about ever seeing the last Aliens movies is the only way to appreciate the first ones again). I.e. treating ”fantasy in space” aka AOS as ”The world that will never be”.
So hh is pointless as we know result?
40k is pointless as we know for sure in the end nothing is alive?
Gert wrote: It's an unwinnable situation. Either GW says nothing and then clickbait channels keep promoting the idea that AoS is dead which feeds back to customers both new and old or GW says "shut up AoS is still happening" and the clickbait channels whinge that GW is bullying WHFB players which can impact the return for those legacy players.
As for the non-Empire factions, if you think of it like HH the first 4 Legions and Mechanicum came first in Book 1 and by Book 9 we had all 18 Legions, Talons, Mechanicum, Knights, Solar Aux, Militia, and Daemons. Each one was tied to specific battles or campaigns where they played a key role (Prospero for the Talons or Signus where Daemons first showed up). Could be that if there is only the Empire + Brettonia on release it could see the other factions released later on.
I guess it depends on whether they’re dusting off the old moulds or not.
Beyond a Made to Order offer to celebrate the release of TOW or whatever, as well as potentially some very specific kits released shortly before The End Times, I don't see them using the existing kits as the basis for The Old Worlds model range. Those old kits do not meet nu-GW's standards for kit design, quality, or even scale. I suspect you'll see things like Empire Demigryph Knights and Tomb Kings Sepulchral Stalkers or Necrosphinxes make a return on a permanent basis, I wouldn't expect to see older kits like Bretonnian Knights or Dwarf Thunderers to make a comeback, and I imagine that the older kits which survive in Age of Sigmar as core parts of the range (such as Skaven clanrats or Dark Elf Wyches) will remain there rather than becoming cross-over kits.
That's... an interesting approach.
Not sure that multiple reminders that the End Times happened, this world is dead and all this is pointless is the best way to drum up excitement for the upcoming game.
Wish they'd start talking about the actual game, what factions will be playable and what kinds of models we can expect rather than one-sentence blurbs on Imperial provinces.
They just told you. 4 Empire factions (as was foretold by everyone with common sense), Orcs & Goblins, Beastmen, Chaos invaders, and hints of Bretonnia and Tomb Kings.
scarletsquig wrote: Looks like a huge emphasis on the Empire civil war, possibly 4 Empire factions as the main focus and a ton of human miniatures that will also just happen to make up the bulk of the cities of sigmar release for AoS?
Getting strong "Horus Heresy, but fantasy" vibes.
I'm just pleased that beastmen are mentioned, although I accept it probably means ungors will change their base size for the 4th time.
There is only one problem here:
Space Marines have appeal no matter what colour they have. Empire state troops are boring from the getgo.
Speak for yourself, I like the aesthetic of Empire state troops and feel they have more room for creativity in their paint scheme on a model-by-model basis (i.e. as long as you hold to a consistent color palette you are free to paint different blocking and patterns on each individual model within a unit, whereas the expectation with Space Marines is that a chapters livery is fairly standardized and consistent across the entire chapter, with only minor variations from company to company and unit to unit).
Not sure that multiple reminders that the End Times happened, this world is dead and all this is pointless is the best way to drum up excitement for the upcoming game.
+1
For me, the only way for this game to feel relevant is if I just ignore the aos-related (and clearly fictional) ”future” of the world (the same way as forgetting about ever seeing the last Aliens movies is the only way to appreciate the first ones again). I.e. treating ”fantasy in space” aka AOS as ”The world that will never be”.
And this is why they are making it clear that Age of Sigmar is the future of the setting and its unavoidable and integral to the setting of the world. Too many WHFB fans, here on dakka, in the Old World facebook group, etc. have spent a ridiculous amount of time arguing that GW was going to fork the timeline and retcon the End Times out of existence/move it into an alternate timeline, etc. I don't doubt that GW is aware of this, and this is clearly them saying: "Age of Sigmar is here to stay and it is the future of the setting you are in, there will be no continuation of the WHFB setting or the storyline past the events of The End Times, because that continuation IS Age of Sigmar.
I love the Huntsmen so much. It's just so dumb that a General will gather elite knights, wizards, masses of trained infantry, and then some dudes hunting pigeons who just came along for the fun of it.
Gert wrote: I love the Huntsmen so much. It's just so dumb that a General will gather elite knights, wizards, masses of trained infantry, and then some dudes hunting pigeons who just came along for the fun of it.
I mean yeah but imagining them as just some guys on a day trip looking for some premium grouse then getting conscripted to fight vampires and minotaurs is funnier.
Beyond a Made to Order offer to celebrate the release of TOW or whatever, as well as potentially some very specific kits released shortly before The End Times, I don't see them using the existing kits as the basis for The Old Worlds model range. Those old kits do not meet nu-GW's standards for kit design, quality, or even scale.
This is exactly why the previewed Tomb Kings Chariot art did more harm than good in my eyes, because it is very obviously based on the 6th edition kit. It is almost one-to-one in it's details from the design of the front icon, to the side-mounted javelins, to the placement of the bandages and bangles on the crew. This is in stark contrast to how they are presented in both the 8th edition artwork and in TWW2. For example, later incarnations have light barding on the horses and proper yokes. That the artwork so closely resembles the 6th edition kit suggests to me that it is either going to be a re-release of the old boxed set, or the later design changes are being undone for whatever reason. Either is bad because the floating yokes and naked horses annoy me to no end and I consider the updated designs to be a massive improvement.
EDIT: Please see the spoilered images for a demonstration of how the Chariots (should) have changed over time:
6th Edition Plastic kit
Spoiler:
Note the horses not actually being attached to the chariot, the lack of any barding, and see how the crew are armoured.
Beyond a Made to Order offer to celebrate the release of TOW or whatever, as well as potentially some very specific kits released shortly before The End Times, I don't see them using the existing kits as the basis for The Old Worlds model range. Those old kits do not meet nu-GW's standards for kit design, quality, or even scale.
This is exactly why the previewed Tomb Kings Chariot art did more harm than good in my eyes, because it is very obviously based on the 6th edition kit. It is almost one-to-one in it's details from the design of the front icon, to the side-mounted javelins, to the placement of the bandages and bangles on the crew. This is in stark contrast to how they are presented in both the 8th edition artwork and in TWW2. For example, later incarnations have light barding on the horses and proper yokes.
That the artwork so closely resembles the 6th edition kit suggests to me that it is either going to be a re-release of the old boxed set, or the later design changes are being undone for whatever reason. Either is bad because the floating yokes and naked horses annoy me to no end and I consider the updated designs to be a massive improvement.
I think people vastly overestimate the potential model range this game can reasonably have in the beginning - outside of practical concerns like the number of product codes and so on, one can reasonably conclude that:
- everything that was still in metal is out
- everything that was in finecast is out
- everything that has since been repackaged or renamed and ported to AOS is out
And that is operating on the basis that the game will be in the 'typical' heroic 28mm scale, and not on some divergent scale with square bases. For older sculpts, there is also the possibility of old moulds or masters being lost or thrown away.
On the topic of get-you-by-rulesets, i can't really see how they'd do a ruleset where roundabout 2/3 of the entries are only accessible for old farts, by proxy or on the secondary market, so i do not think that we'll get comprehensive rules for e.g. the complete old Wood Elves range.
I guess that we still haven't got the whole picture about the rule system, and i guess it will be much more removed from 'classic' WHFB than we currently think, for practical and economical reasons.
I know it says 4 Empire factions.
But it is still just one line. That just gives colour schemes and such. Like marines.
They all have the same stuff so won’t be different looks (army composition is where it’s at. Nuln can take more shooty or that kind of thing).
Danny76 wrote: I know it says 4 Empire factions.
But it is still just one line. That just gives colour schemes and such. Like marines.
They all have the same stuff so won’t be different looks (army composition is where it’s at. Nuln can take more shooty or that kind of thing).
That's pretty likely, you'd have the same body of basic troops, swords, spears, halberds, bow, crossbow, maybe some sort of upgrade or accessory sprue to do some customization for the factions, and then you can add in army selection rules, some faction-specific special troops and more or no access to stuff like blackpowder weapons and so on. Fluffwise the game is set decades before the Great War against Chaos and about 200 years after Mordheim, which is about the same timeframe when imperial gunpowder weapons were professionalized, with the Nuln Gunnery School being founded 'in the century leading up to the Great War against Chaos' so you could have stuff like Nuln forces having rank-and-file muskets and pistols while e.g. Talabecland forces would limit their use to characters and officers.
Danny76 wrote: I know it says 4 Empire factions.
But it is still just one line. That just gives colour schemes and such. Like marines.
They all have the same stuff so won’t be different looks (army composition is where it’s at. Nuln can take more shooty or that kind of thing).
Another thing to remember that the Empire civil war has a great deal rooted in religious conflict, namely between Sigmar and Ulric. It's also obviously several hundred years before the birth of Karl Franz.
Which means, absolutely every model, weapon, banner and scrap of armour that has even a hint of a comet or the words 'Sigmar' or 'Franz' are inappropriate for the Middenheimers at the very least. I'm not sure if that leaves any kits at all that are actually kosher for them. It would be very much like a Horus Heresy traitors army decked out in aquilas and 'For the Emperor', except this conflict has gone on for centuries and the excuse of just not having got around to it holds no water.
Danny76 wrote: I know it says 4 Empire factions.
But it is still just one line. That just gives colour schemes and such. Like marines.
They all have the same stuff so won’t be different looks (army composition is where it’s at. Nuln can take more shooty or that kind of thing).
Another thing to remember that the Empire civil war has a great deal rooted in religious conflict, namely between Sigmar and Ulric. It's also obviously several hundred years before the birth of Karl Franz.
Which means, absolutely every model, weapon, banner and scrap of armour that has even a hint of a comet or the words 'Sigmar' or 'Franz' are inappropriate for the Middenheimers at the very least. I'm not sure if that leaves any kits at all that are actually kosher for them. It would be very much like a Horus Heresy traitors army decked out in aquilas and 'For the Emperor', except this conflict has gone on for centuries and the excuse of just not having got around to it holds no water.
Yeah, just like mk6 wasn't common until the end of the Heresy... The gaslighting (and disappointment) will be unreal when this side game finally drops. People will be posting art from old Empire army books saying "seeeeeee, they've always had "Sigmar" written everywhere" and the obligatory "it's just fantasy so there shouldn't be any rules".
So one post detailing the political climate of the Empire at this time has posters already forgetting the post that all old armies will be usable in TOW? And we're already getting into the "BaWwW mY aOs!!!1!" vs. "BaWwW mY wFb!!!!!1!@!" again?
Still a barely there update. I wish they'd confirm something substantive like returning bases, models, and overeat trays for purchase. Even online/special order would be enough of a bone.
Danny76 wrote: I know it says 4 Empire factions.
But it is still just one line. That just gives colour schemes and such. Like marines.
They all have the same stuff so won’t be different looks (army composition is where it’s at. Nuln can take more shooty or that kind of thing).
Fiddling about with my old Lone wolf Army builder for 6th edition Empire, there are both Cult of Ulric and Artillery train of Nuln style armies Dont you think they will release enough for each of the four emperors for it to be its own thing?
They are changing the packaging on Age of Sigmar boxes from the white to the gold/red, wonder if that's in anticipation of dropping Old World kits with different packaging color schemes.
Danny76 wrote: I know it says 4 Empire factions.
But it is still just one line. That just gives colour schemes and such. Like marines.
They all have the same stuff so won’t be different looks (army composition is where it’s at. Nuln can take more shooty or that kind of thing).
They may also go along religon lines - with priests/ templars etc
Cult of Ulric for the Wolf Emperor, Taal for Talabheim, Sigmar for Reikland and Mannan for Marienburg
Danny76 wrote: I know it says 4 Empire factions.
But it is still just one line. That just gives colour schemes and such. Like marines.
They all have the same stuff so won’t be different looks (army composition is where it’s at. Nuln can take more shooty or that kind of thing).
Exactly. Thats cost efficiency. The kind of thing GW looks for when its launching product lines. Same as how Horus Heresy is primarily based on 18 factions which are mostly built around sharing the same however many core kits, and how Adeptus Titanicus is based on two factions which share the same like 6 kits.
Just Tony wrote: So one post detailing the political climate of the Empire at this time has posters already forgetting the post that all old armies will be usable in TOW?
"All old armies will be usable in TOW" will go the way of the legacy army lists that let players use their WHFB armies in Age of Sigmar and the 8e index stuff that became Legends. Which is to say, they will publish rules for it, you will in theory be able to use it, but it will have a finite shelf-life in terms of how long GW will continue to support, balance, and update those rules until it essentially phases itself out because the influx of new players that will sustain the Old World community will have limited/no access to those models and will only be able to buy Middenheim Wolf-Halberdiers and Reikland Elector-Knights instead of Empire State Troops and Imperial Knights. If you have an existing WHFB collection and a local crew of semi-active grognards who held on to their old armies and still get together to play as part of your private wargaming club, you're all set. If you don't even have the corpse of a remaining WHFB community and you rely on pickup games with complete strangers at the local store, then GWs old-army-promise is probably an empty one.
Over the last month I've helped at least 18 people online try to find Warhammer fantasy battle armies so that they could play either and over Edition or old world when it comes out. Don't ever try to get a job as a fortune teller.
I find it fascinating that this is set before the Siege of Praag, because isn't that also before the existence of the Colleges of Magic? I am kind of excited to see hedge wizards in the Empire.
Scottywan82 wrote: I find it fascinating that this is set before the Siege of Praag, because isn't that also before the existence of the Colleges of Magic? I am kind of excited to see hedge wizards in the Empire.
IIRC Teclis turned up after Magnus had united the Empire, so that probably depends on how static they hold the timeline.
Another update that was just a couple of maps and artwork. Until we see models its hard to believe much effort is being put into this. It been what two years now since they first talked about it.
And the talk about the end times happened, the world still blows up, Nobody cares. Everyone I know that still has any interest in Warhammer Fantasy pretends the end times never happened.
Tamereth wrote: Another update that was just a couple of maps and artwork. Until we see models its hard to believe much effort is being put into this. It been what two years now since they first talked about it.
And the talk about the end times happened, the world still blows up, Nobody cares. Everyone I know that still has any interest in Warhammer Fantasy pretends the end times never happened.
I doubt GW will drop models until close to launch, from their PoV, why would they give 3rd parties a huge lead time to prepare?
Tamereth wrote: Another update that was just a couple of maps and artwork. Until we see models its hard to believe much effort is being put into this. It been what two years now since they first talked about it.
Almost like in the first article, it was explicitly said it was going to be a minimum of three years and that was before Covid impacted the ability to actually do the work. In fact this is the exact quote from that article:
You get the idea – this is a long way off. Years. More than two. Like three or more. Definitely not soon.
Then there was this from an article in July 2021:
It’s going to be quite some time yet as we work on making sure this is the best version of the game we all love. We’ll give you more updates at some point here on Warhammer Community when the time is right.
I get being irritated that there seems to be little progress but people need to remember that this wasn't going to be a quick process by any means.
Tamereth wrote: And the talk about the end times happened, the world still blows up, Nobody cares. Everyone I know that still has any interest in Warhammer Fantasy pretends the end times never happened.
I suspect that statement was more to clarify that the overall story isn't changing, which stops speculation over whether revisiting the setting will affect AoS.
Ultimately, there's not really any need to 'ignore' the End Times in order to play games in the Old World, any more than you need to ignore WWII in order to play WWI games. You're simply playing in a different part of the timeline.
Scottywan82 wrote: I find it fascinating that this is set before the Siege of Praag, because isn't that also before the existence of the Colleges of Magic? I am kind of excited to see hedge wizards in the Empire.
IIRC Teclis turned up after Magnus had united the Empire, so that probably depends on how static they hold the timeline.
After he united them but before being Emperor. Teclis was at the Siege. He and two other Elven mages joined to help Magnus.
I wish they'd get to the point and tell us a bit more about what to actually expect as far as the game is concerned beyond "It'll be like 8th!" and "Yes, square bases!". And I do agree that the previews so far seem more like an RPG setting preview than a wargame preview.
In other words: The wrapping is very pretty, but please show us what's inside?
Gert wrote: Either GW says nothing and then clickbait channels keep promoting the idea that AoS is dead...
Why would anyone say that? How would a side-game made by the Specialist division lead anyone to believe that the main page-listed Age of Sigmar, with releases previewed for months in advance, with multiple side-games set in AoS, is dead?
Tsagualsa wrote: - everything that was still in metal is out - everything that was in finecast is out - everything that has since been repackaged or renamed and ported to AOS is out
I think that would be a mistake.
Granted, there's less and less of the old Warhammer Fantasy ranges still in circulation (especially in the realms of Elves, Dwarfs and men), but if one has been ported across (say, Witch Elves), I don't see why they couldn't be included in Old World.
And I think they should bring back retired kits, especially ones that are still perfectly fine by modern miniature standards.
They probably don't want to tell you what's inside because its not confirmed yet. They could go "yeah its all rank and file with 60 models to a single unit block" and then next week "actually its 30" then 50, 30, 40, 20, 10 etc....
And that's just infantry blocks and such. There's a lot up in the air for it like as not and its just easier for them to release very little info now and release more concrete info once they are further along. Plus GW wants a lot of marketing hype for this. So they want lots of fresh information hot off the press in the 6 months (likely) run up toward launch.
That way they can tease it out over that period in quick succession in a big build up toward launch.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Why would anyone say that? How would a side-game made by the Specialist division lead anyone to believe that the main page-listed Age of Sigmar, with releases previewed for months in advance, with multiple side-games set in AoS, is dead?
People are weird and it's been banded about since ToW got announced. I'm not saying they're right because they aren't, obviously, but people genuinely believe that sort of thing. "GW brought back Fantasy because Age of Sigmar is trash", that kind of nonsense.
Tamereth wrote: And the talk about the end times happened, the world still blows up, Nobody cares. Everyone I know that still has any interest in Warhammer Fantasy pretends the end times never happened.
I suspect that statement was more to clarify that the overall story isn't changing, which stops speculation over whether revisiting the setting will affect AoS.
Ultimately, there's not really any need to 'ignore' the End Times in order to play games in the Old World, any more than you need to ignore WWII in order to play WWI games. You're simply playing in a different part of the timeline.
I don’t know why, but it matters a great deal to me. I enjoyed the Old World, but have struggled to read any novels or assemble any models set in the Old World since it was destroyed. Knowing that it ends, and how it ends, has killed the setting for me. I have no interest in playing “historical Warhammer” games or exploring events that lead to Planet Booms Everybody Dies.
I think the closest way to explain it is…did you ever know anyone who was really excited about the TV show Lost while it was airing? Have they shown any enthusiasm for Lost since it ended?
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I think the closest way to explain it is…did you ever know anyone who was really excited about the TV show Lost while it was airing? Have they shown any enthusiasm for Lost since it ended?
I think a TV show that is specifically built around a mystery is a very different kettle of whatever. The whole point of Lost was to find out what the hell was going on, so yes, it's not surprising that everyone lost interest once we found out what the hell was going on.
For a wargame setting, though, the point is just to give you some background to make the battle seem more interesting. And those battles always included some elements of 'historical' Warhammer, with the game over its span including special characters and events from various points in the timeline.
I mean, I do see your point, and it's the same issue that some people have with movie prequels in general... I just don't personally find it an issue. The point is the story, not the destination.
I suppose a better example would be all the Star Wars fans turned off by the sequel trilogy.
In either case, it’s great that you and many others aren’t bothered, but many other are. GW seem to be aware of this, but they also seem to be doubling down rather than trying to reclaim that lost part of the market.
I’m tempted to give my allegiance to Elspeth Magritta VI, Merchant-Lords of Marienburg seem like they would have a lot of Dogs of War and Mannan themed units.
Hopefully this is all a positive step and they are aiming to push a old fantasy to bring in new players.
I do like Empire aesthetics and hope they do push to expand it even if it’s a soft reboot to the setting gameplay and miniature wise.
I want the rank units, and would be very happy if they thought though how to keep that feel. With Age of sigmar being there big flashy fantasy.
But with the discussion they are encouraging I would find it kind of ironic if tomb kings made a big return as the main setting undead. So as not to cross sale to much with AoS.
GW creates a lot of problems for future GW should be a saying. :p
But I would be very sad not to see my vampires return. They can slot so easy into the empire setting with living troops, it would be a bit odd not to at least explore that.
I am super pumped for the Old World. I am really looking forward to bringing my army back to the table top. I have been painting new units to build up the army.
JUst as a review - GW has stated that all of the armies will playable and GW wants you to use your old models.
Here list of armies of the Old World as we know it Empire -
Middenhiem/ Cult of Ulric
Marienburg - Will likely be mercenary based. There has been play testing that suffaced that includes Tilean Pikesmen that seems to lend some wieght to this rumor
Reikland - Cult of Sigmar
Talabheim - a mixed army likely including Halflings and Dwarfs Bretonnia
Wood Elves
Dwarfs
Greenskins
Chaos -
Beastmen
Grand army of Chaos ( Would likely include new models for Valnir the Reaper and Scyla Anfingrimm both died at the Siege of Praag) Kislev
Cathey
Tomb Kings
Unconfermed but likely a part of the game Vampire Counts (The Vampire Wars happoned during this period)
Chaos Dwarfs (Their Icons are on the map)
Hobgoblin Khans (Their Icons are on the Map and concept sketches have been released)
High Elves (Their Icons are on the map)
Dark Elves (Large portions of thier army is still on shelves)
Lizardmen (Their whole army is still on the shelves)
Ogre Kingdoms (Their whole army is still on the shelves)
Skaven (Their whole army is still on the shelves)
The only true army that does not have any clues that it may be part of the game is the Dogs of War (Tilean City States). They were very active durring this period, and Leonardo da Miragliano was alive and very active in Tilea and the Empire. As a mercenary general myself this is the one i want to see the most, but i am not going to get my hopes up if Tileans are going to be part of the Marienburg army.
Tamereth wrote: And the talk about the end times happened, the world still blows up, Nobody cares. Everyone I know that still has any interest in Warhammer Fantasy pretends the end times never happened.
I suspect that statement was more to clarify that the overall story isn't changing, which stops speculation over whether revisiting the setting will affect AoS.
Ultimately, there's not really any need to 'ignore' the End Times in order to play games in the Old World, any more than you need to ignore WWII in order to play WWI games. You're simply playing in a different part of the timeline.
Honestly, that's the exact reason I don't play historicals. Doing the history incorrectly is a large flaw. (Well, and the button trivia. Military history buffs and their obsessions with details that don't matter get tiresome, and that's been part of my day-to-day for far too long).
If someone else can ignore it, that's fine for them, but it is a huge turn off.
JUst as a review - GW has stated that all of the armies will playable and GW wants you to use your old models.
Not to be rude to you personally, but people who keep saying this really need to show where they got it from. It sounds like a secondhand rumor adopted as truth, especially with 'GW wants people to use old models rather than buy new stuff.' That sounds like pure fantasy.
Just Tony wrote: Over the last month I've helped at least 18 people online try to find Warhammer fantasy battle armies so that they could play either and over Edition or old world when it comes out. Don't ever try to get a job as a fortune teller.
congrats, that changes nothing about the scenario i presented.
JUst as a review - GW has stated that all of the armies will playable and GW wants you to use your old models.
Not to be rude to you personally, but people who keep saying this really need to show where they got it from. It sounds like a secondhand rumor adopted as truth, especially with 'GW wants people to use old models rather than buy new stuff.' That sounds like pure fantasy.
GW did state they would release rules for people to use their existing stuff in one of the warcom articles. What that actually means and how people interoret it are quite likely two different things based on past experience.
While the hope is that the Old World will be inspired by 6th edition (with a heavy emphasis on on ballance) that is unlikely.
It will likely work similar to Kings of War or most likely similar to Hail Ceasar from Warlord (Warlord was started by and still has many former GW creative people on staff) since the creative teams of both companies are on good terms from what i have heard.
Scottywan82 wrote: I find it fascinating that this is set before the Siege of Praag, because isn't that also before the existence of the Colleges of Magic? I am kind of excited to see hedge wizards in the Empire.
IIRC Teclis turned up after Magnus had united the Empire, so that probably depends on how static they hold the timeline.
After he united them but before being Emperor. Teclis was at the Siege. He and two other Elven mages joined to help Magnus.
Middenehim had organised Wizards Guild for a long time before, hopefully that will stay and many nobles had their own court wizard.
Pretty clever of GW. They dont have any news, so they instead go out with an announcement of what TOW is not, and will not be, and what certainly still happened.
And there you have it, already 3 more pages of speculation from the community.
Fayric wrote: Pretty clever of GW. They dont have any news, so they instead go out with an announcement of what TOW is not, and will not be, and what certainly still happened.
And there you have it, already 3 more pages of speculation from the community.
Sadly there is no Fantasy Valrak that could pad out each of these paragraphs into a Youtube-optimized 8 minute video for our enjoyment
But seriously, the amount of speculation even this non-announcment produces is a clear indicator that there still is a lot of interest in the old world that could be monetarized if anyone cared to do it, which makes me hopeful for the future of that setting.
Tamereth wrote: And the talk about the end times happened, the world still blows up, Nobody cares. Everyone I know that still has any interest in Warhammer Fantasy pretends the end times never happened.
I suspect that statement was more to clarify that the overall story isn't changing, which stops speculation over whether revisiting the setting will affect AoS.
Ultimately, there's not really any need to 'ignore' the End Times in order to play games in the Old World, any more than you need to ignore WWII in order to play WWI games. You're simply playing in a different part of the timeline.
Well if at the end of WW1 it resulted in the world being destroyed and we all now lived on the moon, it might very well affect your enjoyment of playing a WW1 game.
It's like a book where you know that the story ends and that the end of the story sucks, it can definitely affect the enjoyment of reading the story again.
Since you mentioned WW2... there have been a few times over my life time where I've been struck deeply by the atrocities wrought during WW2 and it's affected my ability to enjoy WW2 stuff. WHFB is obviously not the same, but the events around something can definitely affect my enjoyment of the thing.
I never expected them to retcon the end times, but given how much a large portion of the WHFB fanbase hated it, it seems bizzare that they'd open an article about TOW with a reminder about End Times. It's best just not to mention it. If the fans want to pretend it didn't happen, why not let them. When you're trying to entice people who are bitter at you for something you did, maybe best not to bring up the biggest reason they're bitter.
Not to be rude to you personally, but people who keep saying this really need to show where they got it from. It sounds like a secondhand rumor adopted as truth, especially with 'GW wants people to use old models rather than buy new stuff.' That sounds like pure fantasy.
This is a Quote from their FAQ that was posted a few years ago. It answered the question if the new edition would be 10mm miniatures.
What? No! What madness is that?! The scale will remain the same as it ever was. We want people to be able to use their old armies if they wish, or to start new ones, or to add new miniatures to old armies – whatever they want.
Not to be rude to you personally, but people who keep saying this really need to show where they got it from. It sounds like a secondhand rumor adopted as truth, especially with 'GW wants people to use old models rather than buy new stuff.' That sounds like pure fantasy.
This is a Quote from their FAQ that was posted a few years ago. It answered the question if the new edition would be 10mm miniatures.
What? No! What madness is that?! The scale will remain the same as it ever was. We want people to be able to use their old armies if they wish, or to start new ones, or to add new miniatures to old armies – whatever they want.
To be quite fair, it's a very strong hint and a clear statement of intent, but of course changing stuff during development and pretending you never said otherwise happens all the time, and has happened with GW before. We have no reason to assume that what they said back then is not still what they plan to do, but it could happen. That being said, GW is very fond of their 28mm heroic scale and only rarely deviates from it, and almost never without a very good practical or legal reason.
Quote is still a quote, and being first party the best evidence we currently have. So for now, the question of scale and backwards compatibility is addressed.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Quote is still a quote, and being first party the best evidence we currently have. So for now, the question of scale and backwards compatibility is addressed.
As i said: until we have very strong evidence to the contrary, the quote still stands and it is very reasonable to assume it will remain standing.
I'm sure there will be rules, like there were rules for everything in AoS. But GW want to sell you new plastic, not facilitate you using stuff you bought 10-30 years ago.
So no, I dont think its going to be an Empire only epic-scale game. But GW is going to want people to buy "Old World" Empire, Chaos, Orcs and goblins, undead etc. I suspect there may be a HH style cheap "Empire" box starter to get people going. GW clearly seem to be building the civil war and factions as the central narrative, at least for the opener.
The mention of the End Times stuff doesn't bother me. Yes it happened, Sigmar is a thing. This isnt just going to be WHFB 9th edition.
I don't find playing WHFB in a historical context different than playing MESBG and I love me some MESBG even if I know my easterling army is gonna be defeated in the story or that Sauron is gonna lose and everybody is gonna live happily ever after.
Galas wrote: I don't find playing WHFB in a historical context different than playing MESBG and I love me some MESBG even if I know my easterling army is gonna be defeated in the story or that Sauron is gonna lose and everybody is gonna live happily ever after.
I don't mind 'historical' gaming, many of the legendary campaigns for WHFRP are set in 'the past', Mordheim is too, and so on. At the end of the day my dudes are my dudes and GW is not the boss of me, so i can do whatever i want anyway The old Old World had reached the point were at least the main area of interest was auserzählt anyway, so a shift of 200 spices things up nicely.
That being said, their 'The End Times happened and are canonically true' is a bit weird because it's not necessary from a story perspective: you could explain all manners of weird parallel universes by Warp Shenaningans if you wanted to, they exist canonically and are an accepted part of all Warhammer settings, so the conflict they solve here does not really exist in the first place.
The conclusion is, like other people in this thread observed, that it is probably for real-world reasons that they stress this point so much: It's a signal to players that AOS the game is not going away, being cancelled or shunted to the sidelines in favor of WHFB redux. A reasonable precaution against the rumour mill going into overdrive and damaging the sales of AOS.
Imo, It would probably be better for MESBG if they didn't follow the original Trilogy and GW was allowed to do their own little spin off thing that covers Middle Earth after the fall of Sauron. Then they could do their perpetual setting schtick where it's not obvious who's going to win or lose. Warner will most likely never allow this though.
As for the Old World being "historical", yeah it kind of is, unless they go heavy into what-if scenarios. Like that DLC for CK2 about what would happen if the Aztecs invaded Ireland. Remember that CK2 is technically a 'historical' game, that covers scenarios such as : - Scandinavia remaining Norse, well into the late middle ages - Immortal monarchs - Literal devil worship - Aztecs invading Europe - The return of the Zoroastrian Persian Empire
As such, it is not entirely out of the question for GW to do something "ahistorical" such as introducing Lizardmen as part of some weird what-if expansion where they invade Bretonnia. They probably won't have Gelt or Helblaster / Helstorms though, because that would be really be pushing it. Not even CK2 had tanks.
Scottywan82 wrote: I find it fascinating that this is set before the Siege of Praag, because isn't that also before the existence of the Colleges of Magic? I am kind of excited to see hedge wizards in the Empire.
IIRC Teclis turned up after Magnus had united the Empire, so that probably depends on how static they hold the timeline.
After he united them but before being Emperor. Teclis was at the Siege. He and two other Elven mages joined to help Magnus.
Right, but at that point, Teclis was still recruiting hedge wizards to help. The colleges aren't formed until afterwards when Magnus concedes how helpful the wizards were in defeating Asavar Kul. I imagine the difference will be negligible, but it's neat as a concept. Gives someone more freedom to convert interesting human wizards that don't fit any of the college molds.
Will be interesting to see how they incorporate the Vampire Counts into this period; presumably there's still some minor Von-Carsteins lingering in Sylvania (might be having their own fun little succession crisis to mirror the Empire) and there's always scope for isolated Vamps from other bloodlines. Neferata is always going to be about.
Tamereth wrote: And the talk about the end times happened, the world still blows up, Nobody cares. Everyone I know that still has any interest in Warhammer Fantasy pretends the end times never happened.
I suspect that statement was more to clarify that the overall story isn't changing, which stops speculation over whether revisiting the setting will affect AoS.
Ultimately, there's not really any need to 'ignore' the End Times in order to play games in the Old World, any more than you need to ignore WWII in order to play WWI games. You're simply playing in a different part of the timeline.
I don’t know why, but it matters a great deal to me. I enjoyed the Old World, but have struggled to read any novels or assemble any models set in the Old World since it was destroyed. Knowing that it ends, and how it ends, has killed the setting for me. I have no interest in playing “historical Warhammer” games or exploring events that lead to Planet Booms Everybody Dies.
I think the closest way to explain it is…did you ever know anyone who was really excited about the TV show Lost while it was airing? Have they shown any enthusiasm for Lost since it ended?
While I don't feel this way about Warhammer The Old World, I can definitely understand the sentiment. I feel similarly about Star Wars since the retro-erasure of the old expanded universe. No intense feelings about the stuff they put out one way or the other and can't really muster much enthusiasm. "Huh. Neat," is about the temperature I can manage for any of it. Very much the "Once bitten, twice shy," feeling.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Imo, It would probably be better for MESBG if they didn't follow the original Trilogy and GW was allowed to do their own little spin off thing that covers Middle Earth after the fall of Sauron.
Then they could do their perpetual setting schtick where it's not obvious who's going to win or lose.
Warner will most likely never allow this though.
That would be terrible and most likely lead into Rings of Power levels of drivel.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Quote is still a quote, and being first party the best evidence we currently have. So for now, the question of scale and backwards compatibility is addressed.
Important note on scale - GW maintains that their miniatures scale has remained consistent and the miniatures being produced today are in the same scale as the miniatures produced 30-40 years ago.
Put a modern day miniature from the last 2-3 years next to a miniature they produced in the 80s or 90s and we immediately know that they don't scale well to eachother.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Imo, It would probably be better for MESBG if they didn't follow the original Trilogy and GW was allowed to do their own little spin off thing that covers Middle Earth after the fall of Sauron.
Then they could do their perpetual setting schtick where it's not obvious who's going to win or lose.
Warner will most likely never allow this though.
As for the Old World being "historical", yeah it kind of is, unless they go heavy into what-if scenarios.
Like that DLC for CK2 about what would happen if the Aztecs invaded Ireland. Remember that CK2 is technically a 'historical' game, that covers scenarios such as :
- Scandinavia remaining Norse, well into the late middle ages
- Immortal monarchs
- Literal devil worship
- Aztecs invading Europe
- The return of the Zoroastrian Persian Empire
As such, it is not entirely out of the question for GW to do something "ahistorical" such as introducing Lizardmen as part of some weird what-if expansion where they invade Bretonnia.
They probably won't have Gelt or Helblaster / Helstorms though, because that would be really be pushing it. Not even CK2 had tanks.
As GW have yet to do a "Dornian Heresy" scenario for Horus Heresy, its safe to assume they aren't going to do it for Old World. The reasons why they don't do alternate history/parallel timeline nonsense should be fairly obvious from a branding standpoint.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Imo, It would probably be better for MESBG if they didn't follow the original Trilogy and GW was allowed to do their own little spin off thing that covers Middle Earth after the fall of Sauron. Then they could do their perpetual setting schtick where it's not obvious who's going to win or lose. Warner will most likely never allow this though.
That would be terrible and most likely lead into Rings of Power levels of drivel.
I dunno, Shadow of __ is a spin off that takes place before the events of LoTR and those games turned out ok. Kind of weird canonically but the execution was decent. RoP was crap because it had crap directors, actors and writers who didn't understand the source material or anything about cinematography. Wasn't RoP loosely based on parts of the Simarillion?
A spin off that takes place after the main story is a lot less egregious than one that is meant to be before anyway. Fewer continuity errors and chronological weirdness.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Imo, It would probably be better for MESBG if they didn't follow the original Trilogy and GW was allowed to do their own little spin off thing that covers Middle Earth after the fall of Sauron.
Then they could do their perpetual setting schtick where it's not obvious who's going to win or lose.
Warner will most likely never allow this though.
That would be terrible and most likely lead into Rings of Power levels of drivel.
I dunno, Shadow of __ is a spin off that takes place before the events of LoTR and those games turned out ok. Kind of weird canonically but the execution was decent.
RoP was crap because it had crap directors, actors and writers who didn't understand the source material or anything about cinematography. Wasn't RoP loosely based on parts of the Simarillion?
A spin off that takes place after the main story is a lot less egregious than one that is meant to be before anyway.
Fewer continuity errors and chronological weirdness.
The gameplay of Shadow was alright, but what it did to the story and characters was a genuine abomination. Same as RoP.
JimmyWolf87 wrote: Will be interesting to see how they incorporate the Vampire Counts into this period; presumably there's still some minor Von-Carsteins lingering in Sylvania (might be having their own fun little succession crisis to mirror the Empire) and there's always scope for isolated Vamps from other bloodlines. Neferata is always going to be about.
The Von Carstiens are the one most associated with the Empire but they are IIRc quiet during the Great War against Chaos - Mannfred was defeated in 2145 and Neferata's Sisterhood has also been keeping an eye on the remaining vamps in Sylvania so they don't start any more wars!
There are vampires in Kislev - after all they did have a vampire Tzarina. Kattarin immediately after the Great War ends! She reigned from 2309 to 2465 so be interesting to see if she appears and if they incoprorate her story.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Imo, It would probably be better for MESBG if they didn't follow the original Trilogy and GW was allowed to do their own little spin off thing that covers Middle Earth after the fall of Sauron.
Then they could do their perpetual setting schtick where it's not obvious who's going to win or lose.
Warner will most likely never allow this though.
That would be terrible and most likely lead into Rings of Power levels of drivel.
I dunno, Shadow of __ is a spin off that takes place before the events of LoTR and those games turned out ok. Kind of weird canonically but the execution was decent.
RoP was crap because it had crap directors, actors and writers who didn't understand the source material or anything about cinematography. Wasn't RoP loosely based on parts of the Simarillion?
A spin off that takes place after the main story is a lot less egregious than one that is meant to be before anyway.
Fewer continuity errors and chronological weirdness.
The gameplay of Shadow was alright, but what it did to the story and characters was a genuine abomination. Same as RoP.
Fair enough. I did get really confused about the whole Celebrimbor thing and how they made him a power hungry tyrant.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Imo, It would probably be better for MESBG if they didn't follow the original Trilogy and GW was allowed to do their own little spin off thing that covers Middle Earth after the fall of Sauron.
Then they could do their perpetual setting schtick where it's not obvious who's going to win or lose.
Warner will most likely never allow this though.
That would be terrible and most likely lead into Rings of Power levels of drivel.
I dunno, Shadow of __ is a spin off that takes place before the events of LoTR and those games turned out ok. Kind of weird canonically but the execution was decent.
RoP was crap because it had crap directors, actors and writers who didn't understand the source material or anything about cinematography. Wasn't RoP loosely based on parts of the Simarillion?
A spin off that takes place after the main story is a lot less egregious than one that is meant to be before anyway.
Fewer continuity errors and chronological weirdness.
The gameplay of Shadow was alright, but what it did to the story and characters was a genuine abomination. Same as RoP.
Fair enough. I did get really confused about the whole Celebrimbor thing and how they made him a power hungry tyrant.
It did not help that they were specifically forbidden from using anything from the Silmarillion, so they basically had to do a huge song and dance around anything resembling the actual Tolkienian story.
Mr Morden wrote: So getting back to the Old Word rather than Middle Earth - another cool pic
Spoiler:
It would have been cooler if they had taken inspiration from slightly earlier Early-Modern clothing styles to visualize that it's about 300 years distant from when we last saw the Empire.
Yeah, it does look a little too much like the Empire we know. He should probably have more armor and less puffy clothing. I also noticed this :
He should not have a flintlock pistol. I really doubt Imperial fire arms tech is the same as it was 300 years before. It should be a wheellock at most, and he should be a higher ranking soldier to show how uncommon pistols are.
Long arms would probably fine for rank and file though. But again, they wouldn't be flintlocks.
Scottywan82 wrote: I find it fascinating that this is set before the Siege of Praag, because isn't that also before the existence of the Colleges of Magic? I am kind of excited to see hedge wizards in the Empire.
IIRC Teclis turned up after Magnus had united the Empire, so that probably depends on how static they hold the timeline.
After he united them but before being Emperor. Teclis was at the Siege. He and two other Elven mages joined to help Magnus.
Right, but at that point, Teclis was still recruiting hedge wizards to help. The colleges aren't formed until afterwards when Magnus concedes how helpful the wizards were in defeating Asavar Kul. I imagine the difference will be negligible, but it's neat as a concept. Gives someone more freedom to convert interesting human wizards that don't fit any of the college molds.
Yeah, I was just giving context as to part of why Teclis founded them.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Yeah, it does look a little too much like the Empire we know. He should probably have more armor and less puffy clothing.
I also noticed this :
He should not have a flintlock pistol. I really doubt Imperial fire arms tech is the same as it was 300 years before. It should be a wheellock at most, and he should be a higher ranking soldier to show how uncommon pistols are.
Long arms would probably fine for rank and file though. But again, they wouldn't be flintlocks.
Apparently TOW is going to be set 'decades before the Great War against Chaos' - the first gunnery school in Nuln is said to have been established 'in the century leading up to the GWaC' so it would be pretty much in this epoch that blackpowder weapons would become standardized and quasi-industrialized. I guess Nuln forces will be more blackpowder-heavy; common blackpowder arms should be predominantly matchlocks, with some wheel locks thrown in as particularly well-made examples, and flintlocks or snaplocks should be either top-of-the-line exceptional pieces of art or dwarven work.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Yeah, it does look a little too much like the Empire we know. He should probably have more armor and less puffy clothing.
I also noticed this :
Spoiler:
He should not have a flintlock pistol. I really doubt Imperial fire arms tech is the same as it was 300 years before. It should be a wheellock at most, and he should be a higher ranking soldier to show how uncommon pistols are.
Long arms would probably fine for rank and file though. But again, they wouldn't be flintlocks.
I don't think pistols are necessarily uncommon at this point. They're not exactly 'rare' for random mercenaries 200 years before The Old World period in Mordheim (which were also flintlocks FWIW); just relatively uncommon compared to other projectiles and somewhat unreliable. You also have to factor in that a lot of this tech comes via Dwarfs so the developments that go into progressing from, say, wheellocks to flintlocks have probably already been done before they ever reach the Empire (if they even took place at all; let's not fall into the trap of assuming all development is directly translatable from our world. Historical 'accuracy' is a bit moot).
That isn't to say that it might not have been nice to see a different aesthetic to distinguish them from the 'modern' Empire troops but this game is designed specifically to tug those nostalgia strings and have you guzzling down the member-berries so I can't really take too much issue with the choice.
problem is simple that in 2500, standard issue state troop arms are Matchlocks
if Flintlocks are available, there is no reason for having Matchlocks any more
Wheellock was a different thing, more complicated to manufacture, operate and maintain
hence it co-existed with Matchlocks for a while and even was still present as Flintlocks were common (as it has some advantages)
but than, the Militia (?) on the left is completely designed in 17th century outfit, not just the weapons
problem is simple that in 2500, standard issue state troop arms are Matchlocks
if Flintlocks are available, there is no reason for having Matchlocks any more
Wheellock was a different thing, more complicated to manufacture, operate and maintain
hence it co-existed with Matchlocks for a while and even was still present as Flintlocks were common (as it has some advantages)
but than, the Militia (?) on the left is completely designed in 17th century outfit, not just the weapons
It's a bit maddening because other stuff like the fastenings on the clothes are pretty much spot-on, but then you have weird stuff like all ruffled sleeves all the time thrown in, or the nonsensical codpiece on the Zweihander dude
problem is simple that in 2500, standard issue state troop arms are Matchlocks
if Flintlocks are available, there is no reason for having Matchlocks any more
Wheellock was a different thing, more complicated to manufacture, operate and maintain
hence it co-existed with Matchlocks for a while and even was still present as Flintlocks were common (as it has some advantages)
but than, the Militia (?) on the left is completely designed in 17th century outfit, not just the weapons
Depends which version; I won't pretend to be au fait with gunnery in any respect but I think the 4th-6th Edition era WHF State Troops had flintlocks no? It was only the most recent (and oft-maligned) state-trooper kit that had matchlocks; which, I guess, fit the seemingly 'regressive' visual design scope, along with a lack of boots or teeth but doesn't seem to be where the TOW artwork is going.
Overread wrote: It's almost like they don't copy real world styles, fashions and technological developments in a fantasy setting
I'd pay good money if the Empire people were just randomly styled like cowboys from the old west - perhaps that style was en vogue in the Old World before 'Renaissance Landsknecht' became the dominant look, i mean who knows... Just imagine some rawhide dudes in flanell shirts and jeans running about and shouting about Sigmar and Chaos
Overread wrote: It's almost like they don't copy real world styles, fashions and technological developments in a fantasy setting
Absolutely. I'm happy for history to provide inspiration but I certainly don't need a direct transposition of the minutiae of uniform or progression of gear into the Warhammer setting for it to be credible or enjoyable.
Shuma-Gorath wrote: Special Character wise, who apart from gods, undead and daemons are actually around during this setting?
Ikit Claw, Aekold Helbrass (other warriors of chaos?) maybe some elves and/or dwarves?
The Skaven are kind of occupied at that time, as they're in the last decades of their 400-year second civil war, which will culminate in the personal apparition of the Great Horned Rat in the same year the GWaC breaks out.
Anyway, all the Slann that are still alive are obviously around, and the non-divine Elves too, as well as some of the older Dwarves.
Galas wrote: I don't find playing WHFB in a historical context different than playing MESBG and I love me some MESBG even if I know my easterling army is gonna be defeated in the story or that Sauron is gonna lose and everybody is gonna live happily ever after.
And I have no interest in gaming in a done, dead setting.
Again, it’s great it works for you and many others. But GW is alienating a lot of people who don’t feel the same way towards “historical” gaming.
Shuma-Gorath wrote: Special Character wise, who apart from gods, undead and daemons are actually around during this setting?
Ikit Claw, Aekold Helbrass (other warriors of chaos?) maybe some elves and/or dwarves?
Ikit-Claw wouldn't have been born yet. Skaven lifespan is only 20-30 years with Grey Seers having an extended life span of 60+, barring constant access to the stuff that kept the council alive and kicking(and even then, I believe the oldest member of the final council was almost 170 according to the Thanquoul novels). Queek DID have some of that, which is why he survived until nearly 40, though his reflexes and strength had started failing him before being killed.
Shuma-Gorath wrote: Special Character wise, who apart from gods, undead and daemons are actually around during this setting?
Ikit Claw, Aekold Helbrass (other warriors of chaos?) maybe some elves and/or dwarves?
Ikit-Claw wouldn't have been born yet. Skaven lifespan is only 20-30 years with Grey Seers having an extended life span of 60+, barring constant access to the stuff that kept the council alive and kicking(and even then, I believe the oldest member of the final council was almost 170 according to the Thanquoul novels). Queek DID have some of that, which is why he survived until nearly 40, though his reflexes and strength had started failing him before being killed.
Ikit has been on a movie montage style quest to the mysterious lands in the east and learned karate, magic and the secret of prolonging his life by unnatural means over there. Him being alive at that time is also mentioned in the 7th edition army book.
JimmyWolf87 wrote:
Depends which version; I won't pretend to be au fait with gunnery in any respect but I think the 4th-6th Edition era WHF State Troops had flintlocks no? It was only the most recent (and oft-maligned) state-trooper kit that had matchlocks; which, I guess, fit the seemingly 'regressive' visual design scope, along with a lack of boots or teeth but doesn't seem to be where the TOW artwork is going.
the 4th Edition Metal ones had Flintlocks, the 6th Edition Plastic ones Matchlocks
and the 8th Edition ones while being nice to make something for Nordland or other poor provinces, it was more like "make them look poor so that it is clear that those are from the past"
Tsagualsa wrote:
It's a bit maddening because other stuff like the fastenings on the clothes are pretty much spot-on, but then you have weird stuff like all ruffled sleeves all the time thrown in, or the nonsensical codpiece on the Zweihander dude
Fun-Fact, being modeled after a Doppelsöldner the codpiece is a mandatory part of the armour design
it became a part of fashion because people thought it looked cool later on, but was "invented" by the guys who were fighting "singles" and not within a defensive line (a two handed weapon needs space to be effective, so they were fighting outside the formation) and wanted to prevent enemies from hitting the weakspot of the armour between the legs hence a thick wool cover there
The exact point in time is really secondary to me, as long as we can expect to see new Empire troops. I'll likely end up using some head canon variant of it anyway, in which the End Times will absolutely not happen the way it did.
JimmyWolf87 wrote:
Depends which version; I won't pretend to be au fait with gunnery in any respect but I think the 4th-6th Edition era WHF State Troops had flintlocks no? It was only the most recent (and oft-maligned) state-trooper kit that had matchlocks; which, I guess, fit the seemingly 'regressive' visual design scope, along with a lack of boots or teeth but doesn't seem to be where the TOW artwork is going.
the 4th Edition Metal ones had Flintlocks, the 6th Edition Plastic ones Matchlocks
and the 8th Edition ones while being nice to make something for Nordland or other poor provinces, it was more like "make them look poor so that it is clear that those are from the past"
Tsagualsa wrote:
It's a bit maddening because other stuff like the fastenings on the clothes are pretty much spot-on, but then you have weird stuff like all ruffled sleeves all the time thrown in, or the nonsensical codpiece on the Zweihander dude
Fun-Fact, being modeled after a Doppelsöldner the codpiece is a mandatory part of the armour design
it became a part of fashion because people thought it looked cool later on, but was "invented" by the guys who were fighting "singles" and not within a defensive line (a two handed weapon needs space to be effective, so they were fighting outside the formation) and wanted to prevent enemies from hitting the weakspot of the armour between the legs hence a thick wool cover there
The codpiece was a development that derived from the piece of cloth that was used to cover the 'hole' left between the two pant-hoses back when a 'pair of pants' consisted of two separate tubes that were fastened to the shirt or belt with strings - the codpiece in this picture just looks like a current-time pair of pants with a sock stuffed in. It is nonsensical because it lacks the actual functional aspect of a codpiece, not because it is not part of the look
Shuma-Gorath wrote: Special Character wise, who apart from gods, undead and daemons are actually around during this setting?
Ikit Claw, Aekold Helbrass (other warriors of chaos?) maybe some elves and/or dwarves?
Ikit-Claw wouldn't have been born yet. Skaven lifespan is only 20-30 years with Grey Seers having an extended life span of 60+, barring constant access to the stuff that kept the council alive and kicking(and even then, I believe the oldest member of the final council was almost 170 according to the Thanquoul novels). Queek DID have some of that, which is why he survived until nearly 40, though his reflexes and strength had started failing him before being killed.
Ikit Claw is centuries old by the time of the End Times. He was alive when the Red Pox was unleashed by Pestilens upon Bretonnia in the 1800s.
Shuma-Gorath wrote: Special Character wise, who apart from gods, undead and daemons are actually around during this setting?
Ikit Claw, Aekold Helbrass (other warriors of chaos?) maybe some elves and/or dwarves?
Ikit-Claw wouldn't have been born yet. Skaven lifespan is only 20-30 years with Grey Seers having an extended life span of 60+, barring constant access to the stuff that kept the council alive and kicking(and even then, I believe the oldest member of the final council was almost 170 according to the Thanquoul novels). Queek DID have some of that, which is why he survived until nearly 40, though his reflexes and strength had started failing him before being killed.
Ikit Claw is centuries old by the time of the End Times. He was alive when the Red Pox was unleashed by Pestilens upon Bretonnia in the 1800s.
By the time of the second Skaven civil war, which coincides with the time period TOW is apparently going to be set in, Ikit was the right-hand man of Morskittar, which made him the second in command of clan Skryre, and as such a major player in the war.
The codpiece was a development that derived from the piece of cloth that was used to cover the 'hole' left between the two pant-hoses back when a 'pair of pants' consisted of two separate tubes that were fastened to the shirt or belt with strings - the codpiece in this picture just looks like a current-time pair of pants with a sock stuffed in. It is nonsensical because it lacks the actual functional aspect of a codpiece, not because it is not part of the look
yes and no, to overstuffed thing like it is seen on the picture was typical for Landsknecht armour as they protected their private parts
triplegrim wrote: Have to say I am relieved to see greatswords, as I have 3×25 of them painted up.
I also do like the fairly moderate fantasy elements. No hordes of pegasi or demigryps, but real hard men.
Do you guys think comp will be lords, heroes, troops, special and rare? And with % or with a number or picks, lik 0-4 special for a 2500 army?
From the way they present all this i have a baseless gut feeling that armies are going to be a lot smaller than armies at the end of WHFB, with rank-and-file infantry blocks being more like one choice among several you can take and not a given baseline for each army. I think it's going to be closer to Warhammer Skirmish than to WHFB in scope.
Overread wrote: It's almost like they don't copy real world styles, fashions and technological developments in a fantasy setting
I'm pretty sure there's artwork of events hundreds of years ago with Empire Characters in very similar styles too, so its not like it's something they've suddenly done.
Paymaster Games wrote: spoiler]I am super pumped for the Old World. I am really looking forward to bringing my army back to the table top. I have been painting new units to build up the army.
JUst as a review - GW has stated that all of the armies will playable and GW wants you to use your old models.
Here list of armies of the Old World as we know it Empire -
Middenhiem/ Cult of Ulric
Marienburg - Will likely be mercenary based. There has been play testing that suffaced that includes Tilean Pikesmen that seems to lend some wieght to this rumor
Reikland - Cult of Sigmar
Talabheim - a mixed army likely including Halflings and Dwarfs Bretonnia
Wood Elves
Dwarfs
Greenskins
Chaos -
Beastmen
Grand army of Chaos ( Would likely include new models for Valnir the Reaper and Scyla Anfingrimm both died at the Siege of Praag) Kislev
Cathey
Tomb Kings
Unconfermed but likely a part of the game Vampire Counts (The Vampire Wars happoned during this period)
Chaos Dwarfs (Their Icons are on the map)
Hobgoblin Khans (Their Icons are on the Map and concept sketches have been released)
High Elves (Their Icons are on the map)
Dark Elves (Large portions of thier army is still on shelves)
Lizardmen (Their whole army is still on the shelves)
Ogre Kingdoms (Their whole army is still on the shelves)
Skaven (Their whole army is still on the shelves)
The only true army that does not have any clues that it may be part of the game is the Dogs of War (Tilean City States). They were very active durring this period, and Leonardo da Miragliano was alive and very active in Tilea and the Empire. As a mercenary general myself this is the one i want to see the most, but i am not going to get my hopes up if Tileans are going to be part of the Marienburg army.
/spoiler]
I'll take Tileans in any form, be they thier own list or just rolled into Marienburg. I've had enough landsknechts for one lifetime already, and am saddned (but not surprised) that the empire's troops are just gonne be rehashes of them.
I might be slow on the assumtion, but these images show us exactly the classic huntsmen an free company militia models? This applies to the bretonnian, tomb kings an orc pictures aswell.
I mean, if we know that an army is rolled out about 1.5 - 2 years ( see sisters of battle ) and we have concept art from Kislev and Cathay, would that be that we are going to see a soft reboot, aka old minis + max 2 or 3 new armies ( 3rd is the rebooted Empire ) at maximum at launch?
Am I the only one who feels it's set too close to the End Times? Knowing that it all ends in just a couple of hundred years is a bit of a shame. I know there are reasons for setting it in this time period but it still feels a bit cramped
triplegrim wrote: Have to say I am relieved to see greatswords, as I have 3×25 of them painted up.
I also do like the fairly moderate fantasy elements. No hordes of pegasi or demigryps, but real hard men.
Do you guys think comp will be lords, heroes, troops, special and rare? And with % or with a number or picks, lik 0-4 special for a 2500 army?
If they use percentages to establish comp then I am out immediately. One of the many things that 8th Edition did that sealed me off of keeping up with Games Workshop games completely was percentages along with some of the other piss poor game design choices. If this is essentially eight but without monstrous cavalry, then I'm out.
Also, the last thread we had was locked because of the whole bunch of people nitpicking a bunch of minutiae from outside sources drowning the news thread with complete pendantry. Why are we starting this over again, people?
If they use percentages to establish comp then I am out immediately. One of the many things that 8th Edition did that sealed me off of keeping up with Games Workshop games completely was percentages along with some of the other piss poor game design choices. If this is essentially eight but without monstrous cavalry, then I'm out.
Also, the last thread we had was locked because of the whole bunch of people nitpicking a bunch of minutiae from outside sources drowning the news thread with complete pendantry. Why are we starting this over again, people?
They've said a mix of rules plus some new ones, I get the feeling that 6th edition is the basis, which is excellent.
I don’t get it, we enjoy Horus heresy (or I do) knowing the ending to that story. Are Luna wolf/sons of Horus players bitter at their genefather getting killed?
Shuma-Gorath wrote: Special Character wise, who apart from gods, undead and daemons are actually around during this setting?
Ikit Claw, Aekold Helbrass (other warriors of chaos?) maybe some elves and/or dwarves?
Ok this who i know was alive or active during the 3 Emperors Period
Empire - Mangus the Pious
Chaos - Valnir the Reaper, Scyla Anfingrimm, Aekold Helbrass, Arbaal the Undefeated
GreenSkins - Gorbad Ironclaw
Vampire Counts - Vlad and Isabella Von Carlstine, Konrad Von Carlstine, Manfred Von Carlstine
Tomb Kings - Settra, Khalida
Undead - Arkhan the Black, (Nagash was still healing during this time and was not active)
Skaven - Ikit Claw
Bretonnian - Repanse de Lyonesse
Dogs of War/ Tilea - Leonardo da Miragliano
Dwarfs - All of the Dwarf SCs where alive during this time, but may not hold their current positions. Gotrek likely has not committed his sin that let him to become a Slayer at this time. Bugman is young by Dwarf standards and may not have been born yet
Wood elves, High Elves, and Dark Elves - Elves are immortal and were likely alive during this time with one exception. Skraw the Falconer is considered young by Elf standards and may not have been born yet.
Chaos Dwarf - Astragoth was alive during this period
Lizardmen - All Slann
Shuma-Gorath wrote: Special Character wise, who apart from gods, undead and daemons are actually around during this setting?
Ikit Claw, Aekold Helbrass (other warriors of chaos?) maybe some elves and/or dwarves?
Ok this who i know was alive or active during the 3 Emperors Period
Empire - Mangus the Pious
Chaos - Valnir the Reaper, Scyla Anfingrimm, Aekold Helbrass, Arbaal the Undefeated
GreenSkins - Gorbad Ironclaw
Vampire Counts - Vlad and Isabella Von Carlstine, Konrad Von Carlstine, Manfred Von Carlstine
Tomb Kings - Settra, Khalida
Undead - Arkhan the Black, (Nagash was still healing during this time and was not active)
Skaven - Ikit Claw
Bretonnian - Repanse de Lyonesse
Dogs of War/ Tilea - Leonardo da Miragliano
Dwarfs - All of the Dwarf SCs where alive during this time, but may not hold their current positions. Gotrek likely has not committed his sin that let him to become a Slayer at this time. Bugman is young by Dwarf standards and may not have been born yet
Wood elves, High Elves, and Dark Elves - Elves are immortal and were likely alive during this time with one exception. Skraw the Falconer is considered young by Elf standards and may not have been born yet.
Chaos Dwarf - Astragoth was alive during this period
Lizardmen - All Slann
If i missed any i am sorry
By the time of the Great War Against Chaos in 2300 - all the major von Carsteins are destroyed or pretending (Mannfred) to be but most of the other major vampires from the other major bloodlines are about and active.
Twilight Pathways wrote: Am I the only one who feels it's set too close to the End Times? Knowing that it all ends in just a couple of hundred years is a bit of a shame. I know there are reasons for setting it in this time period but it still feels a bit cramped
I agree its perhaps a bit of a cop-out, because I feel we've done "Big War against Chaos" multiple times at this point. (Admittedly, like super-hero origin stories, this assumes you've been here for decades, its potentially new for other people.)
But equally, if you go much earlier, it seems you are reduced to something specific (i.e. Empire vs Vampires, Empire vs Skaven) and I'm not sure what the other factions are doing. Which maybe isn't as much of a problem if you use the scope to write new stories, but that would likely cause lots of complaining. People like a setting.
Twilight Pathways wrote: Am I the only one who feels it's set too close to the End Times? Knowing that it all ends in just a couple of hundred years is a bit of a shame. I know there are reasons for setting it in this time period but it still feels a bit cramped
I agree its perhaps a bit of a cop-out, because I feel we've done "Big War against Chaos" multiple times at this point. (Admittedly, like super-hero origin stories, this assumes you've been here for decades, its potentially new for other people.)
But equally, if you go much earlier, it seems you are reduced to something specific (i.e. Empire vs Vampires, Empire vs Skaven) and I'm not sure what the other factions are doing. Which maybe isn't as much of a problem if you use the scope to write new stories, but that would likely cause lots of complaining. People like a setting.
Plus the storylines they use to drive campaigns aren't going to go anywhere near "modern" (i.e. 200 years later) fantasy in the timeline.
triplegrim wrote: Have to say I am relieved to see greatswords, as I have 3×25 of them painted up.
I also do like the fairly moderate fantasy elements. No hordes of pegasi or demigryps, but real hard men.
Do you guys think comp will be lords, heroes, troops, special and rare? And with % or with a number or picks, lik 0-4 special for a 2500 army?
If they use percentages to establish comp then I am out immediately. One of the many things that 8th Edition did that sealed me off of keeping up with Games Workshop games completely was percentages along with some of the other piss poor game design choices. If this is essentially eight but without monstrous cavalry, then I'm out.
Also, the last thread we had was locked because of the whole bunch of people nitpicking a bunch of minutiae from outside sources drowning the news thread with complete pendantry. Why are we starting this over again, people?
Isn't 6th the only edition that didn't use percentages? Off the top of my head, 3rd, 5th and 8th all did. Not sure about 7th.
I can;t recall which edition was best game wise but 6th had so much exploration and options for different factions and variant army lists - loved that.
Hoping that we get models etc for the different priests / warrior priests of different cults of the Empire in the new rules as Sigmar was not quite as pre-emminent in this period
Tyel wrote: Am I the only one who feels it's set too close to the End Times? Knowing that it all ends in just a couple of hundred years is a bit of a shame. I know there are reasons for setting it in this time period but it still feels a bit cramped
it is not about the setting being done
it is more about telling people that the other game is still the main game
is not like we know Horus would not win but still play HH, it is like announcing the new Horus Heresy game with the words "and the destruction of Cadia was already foreshadowed during the Horus Heresy"
this new game is about telling the story how Cadia was doomed since forever?
it just makes not much sense to tell people that the new game with an unexplored timeline and countless scenarios, is again all about the one event that actually killed it
Just Tony wrote: f they use percentages to establish comp then I am out immediately. One of the many things that 8th Edition did that sealed me off of keeping up with Games Workshop games completely was percentages along with some of the other piss poor game design choices. If this is essentially eight but without monstrous cavalry, then I'm out.
...what've you got against percentages, Tony?
Especially when I'm pretty sure you only need to be able to work out 50% and 25% of your total points budget to get the brackets - would it be less painful if they gave you a table with the breakdown for different sizes of game, but the % as a reference point if you were playing a value outside the defined ones?
nathan2004 wrote: I don’t get it, we enjoy Horus heresy (or I do) knowing the ending to that story. Are Luna wolf/sons of Horus players bitter at their genefather getting killed?
That’s not quite the same thing as knowing all the characters die like punks and the entire setting is destroyed, reduced to ashes, and the ashes salted. The 40k setting was a good storytelling outcome, and still lives. Nit at all the same thing.
It’s a weird hill to die on, there’s a wealth of stories, characters, campaigns that can be told within the Old World setting regardless of if in multiple generations of its timelines future it changed into something else. It’s your opinion and that’s cool, but it’s certainly a massive minority one.
Twilight Pathways wrote: Am I the only one who feels it's set too close to the End Times? Knowing that it all ends in just a couple of hundred years is a bit of a shame. I know there are reasons for setting it in this time period but it still feels a bit cramped
I feel like setting it relatively close is the best way to get WHFB "back" as much as it can be. Far enough to leave a gap they can explore and do plenty with, but still not so much of a difference that it's basically a completely different setting.
nathan2004 wrote: I don’t get it, we enjoy Horus heresy (or I do) knowing the ending to that story. Are Luna wolf/sons of Horus players bitter at their genefather getting killed?
I think it's because HH started as a history and then became a setting, rather than the other way around. I agree, it shouldn't matter, but it seems to.
Tyel wrote: Am I the only one who feels it's set too close to the End Times? Knowing that it all ends in just a couple of hundred years is a bit of a shame. I know there are reasons for setting it in this time period but it still feels a bit cramped
it is not about the setting being done
it is more about telling people that the other game is still the main game
is not like we know Horus would not win but still play HH, it is like announcing the new Horus Heresy game with the words "and the destruction of Cadia was already foreshadowed during the Horus Heresy"
this new game is about telling the story how Cadia was doomed since forever?
it just makes not much sense to tell people that the new game with an unexplored timeline and countless scenarios, is again all about the one event that actually killed it
Makes no difference to me. I've never been worried about GWs ongoing story, be it WHFB, 40k, or AoS, just the ones that get forged on our tables.
I just want a decent rank & file fantasy game.
Olthannon wrote: I'm hoping for some awesome priests of Taal to add to my Talabecland army.
4 flavors of empire sounds good. And mirror the four flavors of skaven, chaos and vampires, no?
Hope the game is closer to skirmish than the bloated 8th, of I have to take a pick.
Always thought all those army deal boxes from the early 2000s were perfect sizes for a 'large' force. I get headaches just looking at my enormous csm forces at 2000pts these days, and they are supposed to be elite and smallish forces.
If the game is all you care about, why even weigh in in the setting? The game means nothing to me (and others) without a compelling setting, a reason to care. Like the rules, hate the rules, they are their own thing and appeal to a different group of gamers.
MaxT wrote: It’s a weird hill to die on, there’s a wealth of stories, characters, campaigns that can be told within the Old World setting regardless of if in multiple generations of its timelines future it changed into something else. It’s your opinion and that’s cool, but it’s certainly a massive minority one.
It doesn’t appear to be a “massive minority” here, or anywhere else The End Times comes up. Of course, we don’t know how many more people who feel this way have already left and aren’t even sticking around to post about it.
ccs wrote: I just want a decent rank & file fantasy game.
oh well, then this is the worst possible place to look at (and without the story, there is not much left be excited about)
if you want a decent R&F game from GW, War of the Ring or Warmaster are your best option
the only reason I even care a litte about that game at all is the story line
the chance is very low that I play it even if the story is good as I don't expect much from the rules (and GW will find a way to mess it up anyway), but if the story is bad too, I am not even going to buy the books
Just Tony wrote: f they use percentages to establish comp then I am out immediately. One of the many things that 8th Edition did that sealed me off of keeping up with Games Workshop games completely was percentages along with some of the other piss poor game design choices. If this is essentially eight but without monstrous cavalry, then I'm out.
...what've you got against percentages, Tony?
Especially when I'm pretty sure you only need to be able to work out 50% and 25% of your total points budget to get the brackets - would it be less painful if they gave you a table with the breakdown for different sizes of game, but the % as a reference point if you were playing a value outside the defined ones?
the main problem in the past with % was the difference between Hero Hammer and an R&F game
if it is again all about Heroes and with the units being just there to increase the HP pool, there is not much point in making an R&F game
Shuma-Gorath wrote: Special Character wise, who apart from gods, undead and daemons are actually around during this setting?
Ikit Claw, Aekold Helbrass (other warriors of chaos?) maybe some elves and/or dwarves?
Ok this who i know was alive or active during the 3 Emperors Period
Empire - Mangus the Pious
Chaos - Valnir the Reaper, Scyla Anfingrimm, Aekold Helbrass, Arbaal the Undefeated
GreenSkins - Gorbad Ironclaw
Vampire Counts - Vlad and Isabella Von Carlstine, Konrad Von Carlstine, Manfred Von Carlstine
Tomb Kings - Settra, Khalida
Undead - Arkhan the Black, (Nagash was still healing during this time and was not active)
Skaven - Ikit Claw
Bretonnian - Repanse de Lyonesse
Dogs of War/ Tilea - Leonardo da Miragliano
Dwarfs - All of the Dwarf SCs where alive during this time, but may not hold their current positions. Gotrek likely has not committed his sin that let him to become a Slayer at this time. Bugman is young by Dwarf standards and may not have been born yet
Wood elves, High Elves, and Dark Elves - Elves are immortal and were likely alive during this time with one exception. Skraw the Falconer is considered young by Elf standards and may not have been born yet.
Chaos Dwarf - Astragoth was alive during this period
Lizardmen - All Slann
If i missed any i am sorry
There's also a noteworthy Undead that was long gone by the time the End Times came, but was specifically active during the time period of TOW: Dieter Helsnicht, the Doom Lord of Middenheim. Among other things, he did a quest in search of the great necromancer Kadon, and met Nagash in his regenerating state in Nagashizzar, then returned to the Empire and waged war on the Middenheimers.
I would much rather they do new special characters than old ones, which based upon the named pretenders to the Imperial Throne, is what GW are going for.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: If the game is all you care about, why even weigh in in the setting? The game means nothing to me (and others) without a compelling setting, a reason to care.
Except that the Time of the Four Emperors and the Great War is a compelling setting. Yes, we know the major points of Asavar Kul's invasion, but just like the Horus Heresy, this is a chance to expand on the history of the setting and learn the details leading up to the Great War. To the characters alive during the decades living up to the End Times, this IS their Horus Heresy. It's literally the most significant event in Imperial history since the founding of the Empire. Hell, if it wasn't a compelling and memorable time for Warhammer players, why have so many play groups organized historical refights of the Siege of Praag through the decades?
Olthannon wrote: I would much rather they do new special characters than old ones, which based upon the named pretenders to the Imperial Throne, is what GW are going for.
They probably aim for something like 80-90% new characters with a handful of plausible old ones thrown in for nostalgia value or because it makes no sense that they would not be active. Some of them are also so old and forgotten that they're functionally new - Dieter Helsnicht for example has had his last official model in 4th edition and his last rules in 5th iirc.
Tsagualsa wrote: Dieter Helsnicht for example has had his last official model in 4th edition and his last rules in 5th iirc.
Dieter had story in End Times: Nagash. They actually included a lot of "forgotten" characters in the storyline. I would love to see new rules for him, though.
Right, but at that point, Teclis was still recruiting hedge wizards to help. The colleges aren't formed until afterwards when Magnus concedes how helpful the wizards were in defeating Asavar Kul. I imagine the difference will be negligible, but it's neat as a concept. Gives someone more freedom to convert interesting human wizards that don't fit any of the college molds.
According to the recent Winds of Magic book for WFRP 4, Middenheim had openly supported and used mages for centuries before the colleges were created, to the extent that they had Guilds supported by the ruling bodies. The rest of the Empire were still not keen on magic and hunted down by Witch hunters. Assuming the WFRP books are being approved by the same team that is now linked to TOW, it might be a nice addition to Middenheim armies
Right, but at that point, Teclis was still recruiting hedge wizards to help. The colleges aren't formed until afterwards when Magnus concedes how helpful the wizards were in defeating Asavar Kul. I imagine the difference will be negligible, but it's neat as a concept. Gives someone more freedom to convert interesting human wizards that don't fit any of the college molds.
According to the recent Winds of Magic book for WFRP 4, Middenheim had openly supported and used mages for centuries before the colleges were created, to the extent that they had Guilds supported by the ruling bodies. The rest of the Empire were still not keen on magic and hunted down by Witch hunters. Assuming the WFRP books are being approved by the same team that is now linked to TOW, it might be a nice addition to Middenheim armies
The Wizards and Alchemists Guild has been part of the setting since WFRP1 its cool that its still there - there were def links with stuff in the AOSrpg books to the ongoing story with the Broken Realms so it seems likely.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: If the game is all you care about, why even weigh in in the setting? The game means nothing to me (and others) without a compelling setting, a reason to care. Like the rules, hate the rules, they are their own thing and appeal to a different group of gamers.
MaxT wrote: It’s a weird hill to die on, there’s a wealth of stories, characters, campaigns that can be told within the Old World setting regardless of if in multiple generations of its timelines future it changed into something else. It’s your opinion and that’s cool, but it’s certainly a massive minority one.
It doesn’t appear to be a “massive minority” here, or anywhere else The End Times comes up. Of course, we don’t know how many more people who feel this way have already left and aren’t even sticking around to post about it.
If your point was simply "The End Times sucked balls" then we're in violent agreement. But your point seems to be "The End Times sucked, therefore every form of Warhammer story/game/period set before or since also now always sucks forever more". Which is simply not the case.
Why you gotta hurt us like this, look at all that value for money.
As someone who was only playing in 8th I'm dead keen for TOW. These blog posts are very obviously "eh lets string along the hype train as slowly and gradually as possible".
I hope they do something really interesting with the setting, even if it means retconning. They should be able to show that with clever narrative you CAN have factions interacting in a way that fits the world and setting, without needing to flush the world down the toilet because of "waah it's too hard to make a narrative where the lizardmen fight the ogres, need new setting"
BobtheInquisitor wrote: If the game is all you care about, why even weigh in in the setting? The game means nothing to me (and others) without a compelling setting, a reason to care. Like the rules, hate the rules, they are their own thing and appeal to a different group of gamers.
MaxT wrote: It’s a weird hill to die on, there’s a wealth of stories, characters, campaigns that can be told within the Old World setting regardless of if in multiple generations of its timelines future it changed into something else. It’s your opinion and that’s cool, but it’s certainly a massive minority one.
It doesn’t appear to be a “massive minority” here, or anywhere else The End Times comes up. Of course, we don’t know how many more people who feel this way have already left and aren’t even sticking around to post about it.
If your point was simply "The End Times sucked balls" then we're in violent agreement. But your point seems to be "The End Times sucked, therefore every form of Warhammer story/game/period set before or since also now always sucks forever more". Which is simply not the case.
No, my point is that it IS the case—for me, and apparently plenty of other former WHFB fans. Having a terrible ending to the setting makes it unenjoyable to revisit any pert of the story. I also won’t ever go back and watch nBSG because of the bad ending. It is common in fandoms, such as video game fandoms, for a setting-ruining finale to affect enjoyment of any earlier part of the franchise.
No, my point is that it IS the case—for me, and apparently plenty of other former WHFB fans. Having a terrible ending to the setting makes it unenjoyable to revisit any pert of the story. I also won’t ever go back and watch nBSG because of the bad ending. It is common in fandoms, such as video game fandoms, for a setting-ruining finale to affect enjoyment of any earlier part of the franchise.
Which is fair. I suspect that a lot of the disconnect there will come from whether or not people agree that the End Times was a setting-ruining finale, or simply a progression of the setting.
I think one difference is that something like nBattlestar Galactica is one story. Yes broken into seasons, but ultimately its one single story start to finish.
Something like Warhammer Old World is not a single story but a setting, a world. Within it are many stories which can stand on their own merits all on their own. Yes the world ends in the end; but honestly you can say the same for any setting you love. Almost any world or setting will end or change significantly if written out far enough. Heck technically Middle Earth and Lord of the Rings, being a mythology for the Norse, "ends" with modern day reality.
Yes the very end of the world is there and GW did give it a very end of the world event; but there are so many stories and epic sagas and events and characters, peoples, races, nations and more that are born, grow, develop, flourish and die all within that huge span of time until the end.
The vast majority of existing lore and books about Old World don't connect to the end times; they are just stories about characters, peoples, races and all. Old World coming back is just a focus on one era of the setting. Just like the End Times are one era.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: It is common in fandoms, such as video game fandoms, for a setting-ruining finale to affect enjoyment of any earlier part of the franchise.
I just finished the (so far published) ASOIAF novels and I certainly feel like I could go back and enjoy the TV show for a second time as far as they followed the written material.
I understand the "hump" of disappointment where they took the setting but the setting has so much history and depth I find it odd people will be turned off WFB forever. And if they are, why are they here discussing it still? We're lucky to be getting TOW at all, and if there's new models or updated ancient kits then even the disgruntled will have something new for playing 6th edition or whatever they like.
If they use percentages to establish comp then I am out immediately. One of the many things that 8th Edition did that sealed me off of keeping up with Games Workshop games completely was percentages along with some of the other piss poor game design choices. If this is essentially eight but without monstrous cavalry, then I'm out.
Also, the last thread we had was locked because of the whole bunch of people nitpicking a bunch of minutiae from outside sources drowning the news thread with complete pendantry. Why are we starting this over again, people?
They've said a mix of rules plus some new ones, I get the feeling that 6th edition is the basis, which is excellent.
If it's based on 6th I will be all in...
nathan2004 wrote:I don’t get it, we enjoy Horus heresy (or I do) knowing the ending to that story. Are Luna wolf/sons of Horus players bitter at their genefather getting killed?
Don't use "we" when it obviously doesn't apply. I knew people who refused to play any special characters who were dead in the lore.
triplegrim wrote: Have to say I am relieved to see greatswords, as I have 3×25 of them painted up.
I also do like the fairly moderate fantasy elements. No hordes of pegasi or demigryps, but real hard men.
Do you guys think comp will be lords, heroes, troops, special and rare? And with % or with a number or picks, lik 0-4 special for a 2500 army?
If they use percentages to establish comp then I am out immediately. One of the many things that 8th Edition did that sealed me off of keeping up with Games Workshop games completely was percentages along with some of the other piss poor game design choices. If this is essentially eight but without monstrous cavalry, then I'm out.
Also, the last thread we had was locked because of the whole bunch of people nitpicking a bunch of minutiae from outside sources drowning the news thread with complete pendantry. Why are we starting this over again, people?
Isn't 6th the only edition that didn't use percentages? Off the top of my head, 3rd, 5th and 8th all did. Not sure about 7th.
7th used slots as well, not percentages.
Dysartes wrote:
Just Tony wrote: f they use percentages to establish comp then I am out immediately. One of the many things that 8th Edition did that sealed me off of keeping up with Games Workshop games completely was percentages along with some of the other piss poor game design choices. If this is essentially eight but without monstrous cavalry, then I'm out.
...what've you got against percentages, Tony?
Especially when I'm pretty sure you only need to be able to work out 50% and 25% of your total points budget to get the brackets - would it be less painful if they gave you a table with the breakdown for different sizes of game, but the % as a reference point if you were playing a value outside the defined ones?
Kodos is going to cover it...
kodos wrote:
ccs wrote: I just want a decent rank & file fantasy game.
oh well, then this is the worst possible place to look at (and without the story, there is not much left be excited about)
if you want a decent R&F game from GW, War of the Ring or Warmaster are your best option
the only reason I even care a litte about that game at all is the story line
the chance is very low that I play it even if the story is good as I don't expect much from the rules (and GW will find a way to mess it up anyway), but if the story is bad too, I am not even going to buy the books
Just Tony wrote: f they use percentages to establish comp then I am out immediately. One of the many things that 8th Edition did that sealed me off of keeping up with Games Workshop games completely was percentages along with some of the other piss poor game design choices. If this is essentially eight but without monstrous cavalry, then I'm out.
...what've you got against percentages, Tony?
Especially when I'm pretty sure you only need to be able to work out 50% and 25% of your total points budget to get the brackets - would it be less painful if they gave you a table with the breakdown for different sizes of game, but the % as a reference point if you were playing a value outside the defined ones?
the main problem in the past with % was the difference between Hero Hammer and an R&F game
if it is again all about Heroes and with the units being just there to increase the HP pool, there is not much point in making an R&F game
Warmaster? Yeah, play the game that did so well GW pulled store support and threw it into Fanatic hospice after 6 months.
No, my point is that it IS the case—for me, and apparently plenty of other former WHFB fans. Having a terrible ending to the setting makes it unenjoyable to revisit any pert of the story. I also won’t ever go back and watch nBSG because of the bad ending. It is common in fandoms, such as video game fandoms, for a setting-ruining finale to affect enjoyment of any earlier part of the franchise.
And the citizens of the Empire as depicted in WH:TOW don't care because they're all long-since dead by the time The End Times takes place. That's not to sound flippant. But everything fails eventually. Should a player refuse to play in an historically based campaign about Imperial Romans versus barbarian invaders because the empire eventually collapsed? I'm not seeing it. I played Tomb Kings in WHFB. It was already a given that they were going to fail in their long-term goals. Didn't mean that I wouldn't play them.
The game setting itself made it impossible that the mortal races could permanently defeat Chaos. The most that any of the mortals in the setting could hope for was to make sure that there was still a world for those who came a century later. In that respect, those living in the period covered by WH:TOW succeeded.
On a less serious note, I'll point out that this is what Chaos players were working toward for the last few decades.
Eumerin wrote: Should a player refuse to play in an historically based campaign about Imperial Romans versus barbarian invaders because the empire eventually collapsed? I'm not seeing it.
I think what you're not seeing is that different things appeal to different people for different reasons. Different things can even appeal to the same person for different reasons!
The open ended nature of WHFB is one of the things that was specifically appealing versus other settings (including historical settings). The "frozen in time" aspect is something that was genuinely appealing to many people. Personally, I never really saw the desire to advance the settings when it is that, a setting... I understand why some people wanted that advancement but for me, I liked the fact it was a static setting where anything could happen next.
Was it the ONLY thing that was appealing about WHFB? Of course not. Was it something that everyone found appealing? Of course not. But there are many fans who are going to be turned off by the end times... IMOGW should just let players pretend the end times didn't happen if that's what players want to do. If they wanted to reassure AoS players that TOW isn't going to replace AoS, they just had to say that, rather than picking at the scars of WHFB players.
Eumerin wrote: Should a player refuse to play in an historically based campaign about Imperial Romans versus barbarian invaders because the empire eventually collapsed? I'm not seeing it.
I think what you're not seeing is that different things appeal to different people for different reasons. Different things can even appeal to the same person for different reasons!
The open ended nature of WHFB is one of the things that was specifically appealing versus other settings (including historical settings). The "frozen in time" aspect is something that was genuinely appealing to many people. Personally, I never really saw the desire to advance the settings when it is that, a setting... I understand why some people wanted that advancement but for me, I liked the fact it was a static setting where anything could happen next.
Was it the ONLY thing that was appealing about WHFB? Of course not. Was it something that everyone found appealing? Of course not. But there are many fans who are going to be turned off by the end times... IMOGW should just let players pretend the end times didn't happen if that's what players want to do. If they wanted to reassure AoS players that TOW isn't going to replace AoS, they just had to say that, rather than picking at the scars of WHFB players.
There is nothing stopping you ignoring the end times and then playing old world or any version of fantasy. I still enjoy Star Wars as in my head cannon all the awful Disney sequels are poorly written fanfiction.
Right but the thing is, it's not going to change. They aren't going to say it didn't happen because that would drop sales of AoS. You'd get the AoS people whinging.
Believe me when I say I GW getting rid of WFB in the first place was the stupidest thing they have ever done and I have zero time for AoS and everything about it. But GW were still very clearly going to say that the End Times still happened. They will probably continue to do so because there's nothing that can be done about that. That's more to assuage the AoS people that they won't suddenly be sidelined and dropped. If Fantasy is a massive success, maybe AoS will get booted gently to the side.
This is a "reinvigoration" of WFB, set in a time period that allows them to create this timeless setting.
Warhammer is all about creating your own story so you can continue to do that.
Rather than picking at old scars, consider this as a balm for some old wounds. Fantasy is on the horizon, that is a good thing.
Overread wrote: I think one difference is that something like nBattlestar Galactica is one story. Yes broken into seasons, but ultimately its one single story start to finish.
Something like Warhammer Old World is not a single story but a setting, a world.
and this is the problem, you can read GW's post as "this is a story were we have already seen the ending" and not as "this not just a story but a world with many stories"
maybe it is just because some people don't think GW is able to get it right, it is not like the latest story part of 40k turns out good, but there is the possibility that instead of building the world again and get us the many stories, they just make a End-Times Prequel (and instead of new stories start explaining why the End Times had to happen exactly as it did)
it is not about what happend with the End Times and that the story is already done
it is the fear that the new story is again about the same End Times and GW likes doing those things (as some of the HH stories also try to lay down events for 40k, so that you know that something bad in the year 40.000 happend because in the year 30.000 someone pressed the wrong button)
and the End times was a bad written story, the first book was ok and then it got worse.
Olthannon wrote: Right but the thing is, it's not going to change. They aren't going to say it didn't happen because that would drop sales of AoS. You'd get the AoS people whinging.
Believe me when I say I GW getting rid of WFB in the first place was the stupidest thing they have ever done and I have zero time for AoS and everything about it. But GW were still very clearly going to say that the End Times still happened. They will probably continue to do so because there's nothing that can be done about that. That's more to assuage the AoS people that they won't suddenly be sidelined and dropped. If Fantasy is a massive success, maybe AoS will get booted gently to the side.
This is a "reinvigoration" of WFB, set in a time period that allows them to create this timeless setting.
Warhammer is all about creating your own story so you can continue to do that.
Rather than picking at old scars, consider this as a balm for some old wounds. Fantasy is on the horizon, that is a good thing.
My point is they don't have to say anything. Why start an article off on a bad note?
If you want people to think about how they can create their own stories in the WHFB universe, don't start your article with "Don't forget we killed this setting, and we aren't unkilling it, it's dead, if you pick up this game, you're officially playing in a dead setting. That army you're collecting? It's dead. Do you remember how we killed it? In case you forgot how we killed it, let me mention it and the thing we replaced it with once again to remind you".
Like, the article literally says...
"One of the most important aspects of Warhammer: the Old World is the setting itself. Obviously, this is the World-that-Was, a world of legend destroyed by the machinations of the Ruinous Powers of Chaos at the culmination of the End Times – an event that doomed the denizens of the Old World to oblivion and heralded the birth of the Mortal Realms and the Age of Sigmar.
It’s important to remember, though, that even though the setting is returning, these events still happened, and that the Old World was destroyed. The End Times had long been foreshadowed in the background of Warhammer Fantasy Battle. "
How many times in 4 sentences can they mention the world is dead and how they killed it, it's almost impressive, what a great way to engender positive vibes about the game
They even use the word "obviously", a word I was taught to avoid using in writing because to the people who were already thinking about it you don't need to tell them it was obvious and to the people who weren't thinking about it you're effectively talking down to them.
As for Fantasy being on the horizon being a good thing, meh, we'll see how it turns out. I have the utmost faith in GW's ability to screw it up and making it highly unappealing.
Olthannon wrote: Right but the thing is, it's not going to change. They aren't going to say it didn't happen because that would drop sales of AoS. You'd get the AoS people whinging.
Believe me when I say I GW getting rid of WFB in the first place was the stupidest thing they have ever done and I have zero time for AoS and everything about it. But GW were still very clearly going to say that the End Times still happened. They will probably continue to do so because there's nothing that can be done about that. That's more to assuage the AoS people that they won't suddenly be sidelined and dropped. If Fantasy is a massive success, maybe AoS will get booted gently to the side.
This is a "reinvigoration" of WFB, set in a time period that allows them to create this timeless setting.
Warhammer is all about creating your own story so you can continue to do that.
Rather than picking at old scars, consider this as a balm for some old wounds. Fantasy is on the horizon, that is a good thing.
My point is they don't have to say anything. Why start an article off on a bad note?
If you want people to think about how they can create their own stories in the WHFB universe, don't start your article with "Don't forget we killed this setting, and we aren't unkilling it, it's dead, if you pick up this game, you're officially playing in a dead setting. That army you're collecting? It's dead. Do you remember how we killed it? In case you forgot how we killed it, let me mention it and the thing we replaced it with once again to remind you".
Like, the article literally says...
"One of the most important aspects of Warhammer: the Old World is the setting itself. Obviously, this is the World-that-Was, a world of legend destroyed by the machinations of the Ruinous Powers of Chaos at the culmination of the End Times – an event that doomed the denizens of the Old World to oblivion and heralded the birth of the Mortal Realms and the Age of Sigmar.
It’s important to remember, though, that even though the setting is returning, these events still happened, and that the Old World was destroyed. The End Times had long been foreshadowed in the background of Warhammer Fantasy Battle. "
How many times in 4 sentences can they mention the world is dead and how they killed it, it's almost impressive, what a great way to engender positive vibes about the game
They even use the word "obviously", a word I was taught to avoid using in writing because to the people who were already thinking about it you don't need to tell them it was obvious and to the people who weren't thinking about it you're effectively talking down to them.
As for Fantasy being on the horizon being a good thing, meh, we'll see how it turns out. I have the utmost faith in GW's ability to screw it up and making it highly unappealing.
At a guess I think GW wants to make it very clear that they will continue to support AoS. I can just imagine the drama if GW did not appear to be planning on continuing to support their Fantasy Space Marines (which I acknowledge with a sense of irony evolved from sci-fi Knights).
Would I be far off base in thinking GW just intends to make a 28mm square based analog tabletop version of their proven successful Total War Warhammer setting? How does Cathay and Kislev fit in all this?
I wonder just how Grimdark it will all be, ie will they lean more into the darker elements of later editions… such as the Wood Elf driven “great lie” of Bretonnian faith…
How many times in 4 sentences can they mention the world is dead and how they killed it, it's almost impressive, what a great way to engender positive vibes about the game
They even use the word "obviously", a word I was taught to avoid using in writing because to the people who were already thinking about it you don't need to tell them it was obvious and to the people who weren't thinking about it you're effectively talking down to them.
As for Fantasy being on the horizon being a good thing, meh, we'll see how it turns out. I have the utmost faith in GW's ability to screw it up and making it highly unappealing.
Reading between the lines, I took it as a management of audience expectations. This isn't the first article they have done but the news is slow. There's a lot of feedback that gets built up and sifted through. They didn't expressly say so much about this in earlier articles from what I remember, so clearly they must have needed to do that based on audience/ stakeholder reaction. A lot of WFB fans will be expecting End Times to have never happened and that all will be well again. So I think yes they deliberately went overboard just to make sure people reduced their expectation of that. As stated, it's also for AoS purposes. Consider this from a GW point of view, if they say End Times didn't happen then it confirms that this entire thing was a gigantic blunder. And it was. We all know that, it was a flamingo up. But they can't say that, despite that being on their minds constantly. There was not many people at GW who were happy with what happened either.
As for their need to use obviously. I would only say you need to look at the previous TOW thread to see that in fact, people do need reminding of the obvious.
ccs wrote: I just want a decent rank & file fantasy game.
oh well, then this is the worst possible place to look at (and without the story, there is not much left be excited about)
if you want a decent R&F game from GW, War of the Ring or Warmaster are your best option
On Old World being the worst choice without GWs story..... I disagree.
I've quite enjoyed several editions of WHFB without caring one iota about the story.
I've long enjoyed playing 40k & now AoS that way as well.
So I'm sure I'll have no issues not caring about the story in OW.
Concerning Warmaster & the ME game:
I won't disagree on thier quality.
I've got Dwarves for ME & Kislev for WM.
What I'm lacking currently is ANY interest in these games from others. Either within my own circle or reasonably local.
So they're both on the list of things I tend to play at gaming conventions.
Warmaster? Yeah, play the game that did so well GW pulled store support and threw it into Fanatic hospice after 6 months.
Please tell me you're joking...
That's not fair to the system. It is a good game that got canned by the sales team well before it even made it to release thanks to the poor sales of the last edition of Epic. There was an article on goonhammer yesterday digging into the history of Gorkamorka with some of the ex GW people and Warmaster was included in some of the detail See the article. It was supposed to come out with plastic armies and everything
Shuma-Gorath wrote: Special Character wise, who apart from gods, undead and daemons are actually around during this setting?
Ikit Claw, Aekold Helbrass (other warriors of chaos?) maybe some elves and/or dwarves?
Ok this who i know was alive or active during the 3 Emperors Period
If i missed any i am sorry
It looks to be a bit more specific than just the general 'Three Emperors' period (which was a bloody long time); based on what they've indicated (and who's King of Bretonnia), we're probably somewhere around IC 2200-2250. Maybe a little later. Depends if they stick to the idea that Bretonnian Kings have extended lifespans or whatever that was by the end. Or there was just an exceptionally long reign. Anyway:
Empire - Magnus the Pious - might be around but we don't know exactly how close to The Great War they're going. Could not have been born yet.
GreenSkins - Gorbad Ironclaw - has been 'missing' for about 400-500 years by the time ToW is slated to take place. Last seen alone and surrounded by an army of dwarfs.
Vampire Counts - Vlad and Isabella Von Castein, Konrad Von Carstein, Mannfred Von Carstein - all have been 'killed' by this point. The Vampire Wars are approx 50 years behind this point.
Bretonnian - Repanse de Lyonesse - been dead for about 200 years.
Dogs of War/ Tilea - Leonardo da Miragliano - also probably dead about 150-200 years. Asarnil is alive and kicking, albeit he's probably still in Ulthuan. The rest likely won't have been close to being born.
Dwarfs - Indeed likely that most of them will have been alive at least.
Wood elves, High Elves, and Dark Elves - Potentially any of them really. Obviously Malekith, Morathi, Orion, Ariel etc. We know the Twins are around and about to do significant stuff. Alarielle is around, as are Belannaer and Korhil.
Shuma-Gorath wrote: Special Character wise, who apart from gods, undead and daemons are actually around during this setting?
Ikit Claw, Aekold Helbrass (other warriors of chaos?) maybe some elves and/or dwarves?
Ok this who i know was alive or active during the 3 Emperors Period
If i missed any i am sorry
It looks to be a bit more specific than just the general 'Three Emperors' period (which was a bloody long time); based on what they've indicated (and who's King of Bretonnia), we're probably somewhere around IC 2200-2250. Maybe a little later. Depends if they stick to the idea that Bretonnian Kings have extended lifespans or whatever that was by the end. Or there was just an exceptionally long reign. Anyway:
Empire - Magnus the Pious - might be around but we don't know exactly how close to The Great War they're going. Could not have been born yet.
GreenSkins - Gorbad Ironclaw - has been 'missing' for about 400-500 years by the time ToW is slated to take place. Last seen alone and surrounded by an army of dwarfs.
Vampire Counts - Vlad and Isabella Von Castein, Konrad Von Carstein, Mannfred Von Carstein - all have been 'killed' by this point. The Vampire Wars are approx 50 years behind this point.
Bretonnian - Repanse de Lyonesse - been dead for about 200 years.
Dogs of War/ Tilea - Leonardo da Miragliano - also probably dead about 150-200 years. Asarnil is alive and kicking, albeit he's probably still in Ulthuan. The rest likely won't have been close to being born.
Dwarfs - Indeed likely that most of them will have been alive at least.
Wood elves, High Elves, and Dark Elves - Potentially any of them really. Obviously Malekith, Morathi, Orion, Ariel etc. We know the Twins are around and about to do significant stuff. Alarielle is around, as are Belannaer and Korhil.
In the article they mentioned the setting being 'a couple of decades before the GWaC', so i'd say around 2250-2280, but 2200 at the earliest is also not out of the question.
This led us to events well known to fans of the Old World, the Great War Against Chaos and the Siege of Praag, two centuries before the End Times. More precisely, we decided to look into the decades prior to this legendary world-changing event.
Shuma-Gorath wrote: Special Character wise, who apart from gods, undead and daemons are actually around during this setting?
Ikit Claw, Aekold Helbrass (other warriors of chaos?) maybe some elves and/or dwarves?
Ok this who i know was alive or active during the 3 Emperors Period
If i missed any i am sorry
Spoiler:
It looks to be a bit more specific than just the general 'Three Emperors' period (which was a bloody long time); based on what they've indicated (and who's King of Bretonnia), we're probably somewhere around IC 2200-2250. Maybe a little later. Depends if they stick to the idea that Bretonnian Kings have extended lifespans or whatever that was by the end. Or there was just an exceptionally long reign. Anyway:
Empire - Magnus the Pious - might be around but we don't know exactly how close to The Great War they're going. Could not have been born yet.
GreenSkins - Gorbad Ironclaw - has been 'missing' for about 400-500 years by the time ToW is slated to take place. Last seen alone and surrounded by an army of dwarfs.
Vampire Counts - Vlad and Isabella Von Castein, Konrad Von Carstein, Mannfred Von Carstein - all have been 'killed' by this point. The Vampire Wars are approx 50 years behind this point.
Bretonnian - Repanse de Lyonesse - been dead for about 200 years.
Dogs of War/ Tilea - Leonardo da Miragliano - also probably dead about 150-200 years. Asarnil is alive and kicking, albeit he's probably still in Ulthuan. The rest likely won't have been close to being born.
Dwarfs - Indeed likely that most of them will have been alive at least.
Wood elves, High Elves, and Dark Elves - Potentially any of them really. Obviously Malekith, Morathi, Orion, Ariel etc. We know the Twins are around and about to do significant stuff. Alarielle is around, as are Belannaer and Korhil.
In the article they mentioned the setting being 'a couple of decades before the GWaC', so i'd say around 2250-2280, but 2200 at the earliest is also not out of the question.
This led us to events well known to fans of the Old World, the Great War Against Chaos and the Siege of Praag, two centuries before the End Times. More precisely, we decided to look into the decades prior to this legendary world-changing event.
Yeah, it's not entirely clear on a specific timestamp; the indication was that Louen Orc-Slayer was King; who declared an Errantry War in 2201 according to the 5th Ed book so we could be seeing the latter years of his, presumably rather extensive, reign.
I think they're aiming for a general feeling of 'World War II is on the horizon' because british.
Because British? Not sure quite what you mean by that. Like, a general 'big war is looming', sure. It's hardly a unique sentiment to one major conflict.
Kind of feel people are going to get that "nothing is really happening" setting. Because where can they go? Yes we can explore the characters of the mortal generation before the Great War - but you can't obviously have "The Great War decades before the actual Great War that everyone forgot about."
All this does is give GW scope to make new characters.
Tyel wrote: Kind of feel people are going to get that "nothing is really happening" setting. Because where can they go? Yes we can explore the characters of the mortal generation before the Great War - but you can't obviously have "The Great War decades before the actual Great War that everyone forgot about."
All this does is give GW scope to make new characters.
Old world had thousands of years of history. They can't detail everything completely before everybody in this forum is dead from old age anyway without even inventing post-end time alternative history.
It's a fictional magic setting, they can do whatever they please with it. Hell you could have some majestic wonderful oh-gak-the-forces-of-good-push-back-chaos-and-win then have some cosmic ultragod step in and say "nope" then revert the timeline back on track because they want the end times to happen. That specific kind of rug pull can be pretty gak if done poorly mind you...
I'm not married to WFB as I never played more than one edition, but if it means interesting stories and setups them I'm happy to see retcons and "oh yeah this stuff happened 400 years ago we just never mentioned it before"
Also can some of you fine fellows please learn to trim your damn quotes, no one needs to see 4 nested quotes if you're only responding to the last paragraph
Tyel wrote: Kind of feel people are going to get that "nothing is really happening" setting. Because where can they go? Yes we can explore the characters of the mortal generation before the Great War - but you can't obviously have "The Great War decades before the actual Great War that everyone forgot about."
All this does is give GW scope to make new characters.
If it keeps the setting alive as a backdrop for WHFRP, Black Library books, for the possibility of a remake of Mordheim, another release of Warhammer Quest in the old World or even a new boxed game set in TOW, as a backdrop for video games and other media that's gonna be more than enough for a lot of people. Having a supported mainline game with regular apperances and support on the community pages and in WD is a very good thing for aspects of the hobby that go much farther than the Fantasy Battles game.
Would I be far off base in thinking GW just intends to make a 28mm square based analog tabletop version of their proven successful Total War Warhammer setting? How does Cathay and Kislev fit in all this?
IIRC they said somewhere that at the moment there are no plans to bring Cathay (and I believe maybe also Kislev) to the tabletop game, or something to that effect. I'm sure someone will come back with a direct quote that clarifies that thats not exactly what/how they said it and theres room for more interpretation there, but I recall it being something along those lines.
As stated, it's also for AoS purposes. Consider this from a GW point of view, if they say End Times didn't happen then it confirms that this entire thing was a gigantic blunder. And it was. We all know that, it was a flamingo up.
Yeah, no. While the rollout of AoS left much to be desired, the fairly large jump in GWs revenue and profit following the death of WHFB and the launch of Age of Sigmar tells us that WHFBs death was actually a pretty smart business move that resulted in financial success that WHFB never delivered them.
IIRC they said somewhere that at the moment there are no plans to bring Cathay (and I believe maybe also Kislev) to the tabletop game, or something to that effect. I'm sure someone will come back with a direct quote that clarifies that thats not exactly what/how they said it and theres room for more interpretation there, but I recall it being something along those lines.
I think they've pretty explicitly said the opposite; Cathay as a setting (and a more detailed Kislev lore) have been developed by Andy Hoare and The Old World team, initially for the CAdevs to create the Total War versions (albeit with different characters in the case of Kislev) but with a view to bringing them into the tabletop. How soon after launch that happens is anyone's guess but it's definitely in the works based on what they've said thus far.
chaos0xomega wrote: Yeah, no. While the rollout of AoS left much to be desired, the fairly large jump in GWs revenue and profit following the death of WHFB and the launch of Age of Sigmar tells us that WHFBs death was actually a pretty smart business move that resulted in financial success that WHFB never delivered them.
GW's revenue was flat (slightly down) for the financial year after they killed WHFB and released AoS, AoS having been released near the start of the financial year, and revenue started to rise 1 year before the 2nd edition of AoS. So it wasn't exactly a raging success of a launch, you generally don't want to be flat on revenue in the year you release your new main product line. I'd say GW's revenue started rising when they started diversifying more, around when the revenue started rising was also when BB, Necromunda, Warhammer Quest and Underworlds first came out, and yes also them investing into new AoS releases also which they hadn't been doing for WHFB.
WHFB definitely wasn't pulling in much revenue towards the end, the last edition was divisive and GW basically were barely supporting for several years before they killed it.
I remain unconvinced that they couldn't have made WHFB into a money maker again versus killing it.
chaos0xomega wrote: Yeah, no. While the rollout of AoS left much to be desired, the fairly large jump in GWs revenue and profit following the death of WHFB and the launch of Age of Sigmar tells us that WHFBs death was actually a pretty smart business move that resulted in financial success that WHFB never delivered them.
8th felt like it was set up to fail, from a design perspective, a release perspective, and a commercial perspective. Designing a game that's going to result in multiple big blocks of infantry being the best way to play combined with hiking the cost and/or reducing the contents of infantry kits, and not releasing many of the things that were probably needed (or botching them) all conspire to result in a game that GW had put in a position where it was hard to get new people into and where there wasn't much new for existing players to buy.
Of course it wasn't a major revenue driver during that edition after the initial edition launch - which normally sees a sales spike - and until the start of The End Times (where people actually had new stuff to buy).
If you don't give a game the conditions it requires to thrive, don't be surprised when it doesn't.
As stated, it's also for AoS purposes. Consider this from a GW point of view, if they say End Times didn't happen then it confirms that this entire thing was a gigantic blunder. And it was. We all know that, it was a flamingo up.
Yeah, no. While the rollout of AoS left much to be desired, the fairly large jump in GWs revenue and profit following the death of WHFB and the launch of Age of Sigmar tells us that WHFBs death was actually a pretty smart business move that resulted in financial success that WHFB never delivered them.
That fairly large jump didn't happen.
Revenue for 2014-2015 (cut off date is a month before the release of AoS) was slightly down and the 16.5 million profit higher only because the previous year saw an exceptional 4.5 million spend (without tracking that down, at a guess that was the new website that cost around that number).
Revenue in 2015-2016 (almost exclusively the duration of AoS's life, with the last month or so of that period with the promise of a quick release of the General's Handbook to fix AoS) revenue was ever so slightly lower again and profit a tiny bit up at 16.9 million. That year was propped up by an additional 4.5 million in royalties (Total Warhammer), without which post-AoS-launch numbers would have been down from the previous year.
2016-2017 was the first year to see massive increase in revenue and profit, this being the the post- General's Handbook period, as well as Gathering Storm and 8th ed marketing kicking in in the second half of that period.
Source: Publicly available investor reports on GW's website.
I'm not going to chase down exact dates but at some point GW also embraced modern marketing and start collecting sets showed up to an all around positive effect. One which was not apparent in the direct wake of the AoS launch, which means it either didn't happen or catch on that early, or its positive effects did not outweigh the negative impact AoS (and 40k 7th ed) had on GW's financials. Either way, the claim that AoS sold inherently better than Warhammer Fantasy is unsubstantiated. AoS became successful after GW invested in it in a way they never did for Fantasy.
The launch of AoS resulted in the replacement of the company's CEO and the production of a book to fix a game at what had at the time been unprecedented speed for GW. Those are not the result of sudden financial success or a smart business move.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gert wrote: Love how the whole point of this new thread was for it to not be a discussion thread and that lasted until literally the first new post on WarCom.
The issue with discussing the newest article is that it's the same as previous articles: nothing of substance with a side order of some pretty artwork. Until GW changes what information they release the discussion of their tranquilized sloth of a hype article isn't going to go much different than any other time.
As a reminder, we are now over three years after the announcement of The Old World and you needn't look further than the first post to see what we (and GW) have to show for it. Three years is a long time to discuss anything to death, especially when you consider the eagerness with which people want to engage with the project.
tneva82 wrote: Old world had thousands of years of history. They can't detail everything completely before everybody in this forum is dead from old age anyway without even inventing post-end time alternative history.
This is an interesting idea.
So if they release the edition and its explicitly 30 years before the Great War with Chaos, do you think they'll then flit around to say the War of the Beard, that time when the Skaven almost conquered the Empire, the Vampire Wars a generation or two earlier and so on? I guess nothing stops them, Fantasy tried to be a bit temporally agnostic, but I suspect they won't.
I could see a similar approach to the Horus Heresy, where they release campaign books focused on fleshing out a small number of factions at once.
For example, a Ravening Hordes style book that provides get-you-by rules for everyone.
First stop is the Empire civil war which also has the core rules. Second stop is Asavar Kul and the Siege of Praag, giving us Warriors, Dwarfs and Kislev. Then it's over to Finuval Plains which includes High Elves, Dark Elves and Daemons. So on until you have captured every faction in an exemplary campaign, roughly in the right era (Say 2000-onwards).
tneva82 wrote: Old world had thousands of years of history. They can't detail everything completely before everybody in this forum is dead from old age anyway without even inventing post-end time alternative history.
This is an interesting idea.
So if they release the edition and its explicitly 30 years before the Great War with Chaos, do you think they'll then flit around to say the War of the Beard, that time when the Skaven almost conquered the Empire, the Vampire Wars a generation or two earlier and so on? I guess nothing stops them, Fantasy tried to be a bit temporally agnostic, but I suspect they won't.
Warhammer Fantasy 'historical' always suffered from the fact that most historic conflicts only really involved two out of the ~ dozen factions that existed. Sure, you can do a Ulthuan Civil War book, but what do you do if you have e.g. Wood Elves or Skaven and did canonically not exist during that time period? At beast you can play irrelevant window-dressing to the major players in such a conflict, e.g. Chaos raiders that use the confusion of war to further their own goals. The Great War at least involves all factions in a scope that makes them relevant enough for their armies to be present.
That being said, back in the day they had awesome campaign sets that included some cardboard stuff, a couple of historic scenarios for two or three armies, and were accompanied by a handful of miniatures for each side. Perhaps that's a way to do stuff like this, splash releases centered around an impressive character on both sides and a couple of troops, you could do them at a frequency that's about as fast as kill-team releases. A product somewhere between campaign set and regiment of renown.
Forgeworld also wanted to do 'historic' splash books for WHFB in the same vein as their 'historical' Imperial Armour books for 40k before they became Horus Heresy Inc., but Tamurkhan: Throne of Chaos was more like an alternate timeline and ended up as a dud, while their awesome concept work for a planned Battle for Blackfire Pass book never got off the ground and just vanished without producing much in terms of models.
A bit hard to read through this thread so maybe someone can answer these Q's for me:
1: Are Chaos dwarfs confirmed yet?
2: Which quarter is the release? (4th I take it?)
3: Any info on white dwarf mag adding a section for oldworld or will there be a new mag for this?
Leopold Helveine wrote: A bit hard to read through this thread so maybe someone can answer these Q's for me:
1: Are Chaos dwarfs confirmed yet?
2: Which quarter is the release? (4th I take it?)
3: Any info on white dwarf mag adding a section for oldworld or will there be a new mag for this?
Thanks in advance.
1. Their icons are on the map, no confirmation beyond this point as of yet.
2. No release date has been given, it is unlikely to be released in 2023.
3. No info given so far.
Forgeworld also wanted to do 'historic' splash books for WHFB in the same vein as their 'historical' Imperial Armour books for 40k before they became Horus Heresy Inc., but Tamurkhan: Throne of Chaos was more like an alternate timeline and ended up as a dud,
Interestingly enough, Tamurkhan was intended as an alternate timeline series that would result in a version of the End Times and main GW said that it had to fit into the main timeline(most likely because they already had plans for the actual End Times). Also interesting that it would have been the second main timeline split(the first being the ending of WHFRP's Enemy Within Campaign).
Forgeworld also wanted to do 'historic' splash books for WHFB in the same vein as their 'historical' Imperial Armour books for 40k before they became Horus Heresy Inc., but Tamurkhan: Throne of Chaos was more like an alternate timeline and ended up as a dud,
Interestingly enough, Tamurkhan was intended as an alternate timeline series that would result in a version of the End Times and main GW said that it had to fit into the main timeline(most likely because they already had plans for the actual End Times). Also interesting that it would have been the second main timeline split(the first being the ending of WHFRP's Enemy Within Campaign).
Yeah, no. While the rollout of AoS left much to be desired, the fairly large jump in GWs revenue and profit following the death of WHFB and the launch of Age of Sigmar tells us that WHFBs death was actually a pretty smart business move that resulted in financial success that WHFB never delivered them.
No, it doesn't mean that getting rid of WHFB was the smart choice at all. It means that a product that's easier/cheaper to get into and is actually supported properly was a smart business move. They could have just done that with WHFB rather than needing the AoS setting replacement.
chaos0xomega wrote: Yeah, no. While the rollout of AoS left much to be desired, the fairly large jump in GWs revenue and profit following the death of WHFB and the launch of Age of Sigmar tells us that WHFBs death was actually a pretty smart business move that resulted in financial success that WHFB never delivered them.
8th felt like it was set up to fail, from a design perspective, a release perspective, and a commercial perspective. Designing a game that's going to result in multiple big blocks of infantry being the best way to play combined with hiking the cost and/or reducing the contents of infantry kits, and not releasing many of the things that were probably needed (or botching them) all conspire to result in a game that GW had put in a position where it was hard to get new people into and where there wasn't much new for existing players to buy.
Of course it wasn't a major revenue driver during that edition after the initial edition launch - which normally sees a sales spike - and until the start of The End Times (where people actually had new stuff to buy).
If you don't give a game the conditions it requires to thrive, don't be surprised when it doesn't.
GWs revenue/profit actually fell through the entirety of The End Times release cycle, so theres plenty of evidence to suggest that there was no salvaging WHFB. For proof (and to challenge Geifers attempts to argue the contrary), I direct you to here:
It actually makes sense if GW couldn’t save it at the time, that would require talent focused on that.
But for players here, I don’t think anyone was particular pleased at the time.
They needed to break the cycle they had stuck themselves in.
But I think the fact so many people want even a bit of that to come back is a neche that should be explored.
Not to mention all the video games now linked to it that’s good.
I can only say "I was there". End Times prompted massive hype. People dusted off armies they'd not used for years. End Times: Khaine sold out online in about 5 minutes. People crashed GW's website trying to buy End Times: Thanquol.
But... then we had it. A tale of dead Dwarfs, dead Skaven and Lizardmen going into space. The rumours that "this was the end" which had circulated since Khaine (possibly earlier) suddenly looked a lot more plausible, and I think hype rapidly giving way to fear on the back of it. Which then gave way to oaths of undying hatred with AoS.
chaos0xomega wrote: Yeah, no. While the rollout of AoS left much to be desired, the fairly large jump in GWs revenue and profit following the death of WHFB and the launch of Age of Sigmar tells us that WHFBs death was actually a pretty smart business move that resulted in financial success that WHFB never delivered them.
8th felt like it was set up to fail, from a design perspective, a release perspective, and a commercial perspective. Designing a game that's going to result in multiple big blocks of infantry being the best way to play combined with hiking the cost and/or reducing the contents of infantry kits, and not releasing many of the things that were probably needed (or botching them) all conspire to result in a game that GW had put in a position where it was hard to get new people into and where there wasn't much new for existing players to buy.
Of course it wasn't a major revenue driver during that edition after the initial edition launch - which normally sees a sales spike - and until the start of The End Times (where people actually had new stuff to buy).
If you don't give a game the conditions it requires to thrive, don't be surprised when it doesn't.
GWs revenue/profit actually fell through the entirety of The End Times release cycle, so theres plenty of evidence to suggest that there was no salvaging WHFB. For proof (and to challenge Geifers attempts to argue the contrary), I direct you to here:
tneva82 wrote: Old world had thousands of years of history. They can't detail everything completely before everybody in this forum is dead from old age anyway without even inventing post-end time alternative history.
Forgeworld also wanted to do 'historic' splash books for WHFB in the same vein as their 'historical' Imperial Armour books for 40k before they became Horus Heresy Inc., but Tamurkhan: Throne of Chaos was more like an alternate timeline and ended up as a dud, while their awesome concept work for a planned Battle for Blackfire Pass book never got off the ground and just vanished without producing much in terms of models.
The rumour is that Blackfire Pass was pretty much complete but got canned due to the early death of Warhammer Forge, which was a minor scandal that lead to Rick Priestley leaving the company. Now we can see it's probably likely that it was killed because they'd made the decision to go the AOS route but at the time there was a lot of bemusement.
God the things that would come out if GW ever had a leak, like those that regularly affect the video gaming world.
Tyel wrote: I can only say "I was there". End Times prompted massive hype. People dusted off armies they'd not used for years. End Times: Khaine sold out online in about 5 minutes. People crashed GW's website trying to buy End Times: Thanquol.
But... then we had it. A tale of dead Dwarfs, dead Skaven and Lizardmen going into space. The rumours that "this was the end" which had circulated since Khaine (possibly earlier) suddenly looked a lot more plausible, and I think hype rapidly giving way to fear on the back of it. Which then gave way to oaths of undying hatred with AoS.
The experiences of your local community are not necessarily indicative of the experiences of the broader marketplace. At my local store, I was one of two people to actually buy any of the books, the store ended up with almost 2 dozen copies of unsold End Times books in hardback and softcover lingering on the shelves (which I eventually helped them sell on eBay at an 80% loss). Likewise any number of other GW retailers in the area had large numbers of the books sitting on their dusty shelves, a few of them still do.
Tyel wrote: I can only say "I was there". End Times prompted massive hype. People dusted off armies they'd not used for years. End Times: Khaine sold out online in about 5 minutes. People crashed GW's website trying to buy End Times: Thanquol.
But... then we had it. A tale of dead Dwarfs, dead Skaven and Lizardmen going into space. The rumours that "this was the end" which had circulated since Khaine (possibly earlier) suddenly looked a lot more plausible, and I think hype rapidly giving way to fear on the back of it. Which then gave way to oaths of undying hatred with AoS.
The experiences of your local community are not necessarily indicative of the experiences of the broader marketplace. At my local store, I was one of two people to actually buy any of the books, the store ended up with almost 2 dozen copies of unsold End Times books in hardback and softcover lingering on the shelves (which I eventually helped them sell on eBay at an 80% loss). Likewise any number of other GW retailers in the area had large numbers of the books sitting on their dusty shelves, a few of them still do.
I'd imagine this – as most things related to this hobby – to have varied a lot depending on one's locale.
Overread wrote: Ok I think we need to step back or we are going to lure ourselves into yet another AoS to Old World evolution and comparison discussion
...and this is why GW shouldn't have opened their article with multiple reminders about how they killed WHFB and how it's a dead setting, even 7 years later it's still clearly a sore spot for many WHFB fans.
Tyel wrote: I can only say "I was there". End Times prompted massive hype. People dusted off armies they'd not used for years. End Times: Khaine sold out online in about 5 minutes. People crashed GW's website trying to buy End Times: Thanquol.
But... then we had it. A tale of dead Dwarfs, dead Skaven and Lizardmen going into space. The rumours that "this was the end" which had circulated since Khaine (possibly earlier) suddenly looked a lot more plausible, and I think hype rapidly giving way to fear on the back of it. Which then gave way to oaths of undying hatred with AoS.
The experiences of your local community are not necessarily indicative of the experiences of the broader marketplace. At my local store, I was one of two people to actually buy any of the books, the store ended up with almost 2 dozen copies of unsold End Times books in hardback and softcover lingering on the shelves (which I eventually helped them sell on eBay at an 80% loss). Likewise any number of other GW retailers in the area had large numbers of the books sitting on their dusty shelves, a few of them still do.
The hype online is more what I'm thinking.
What happened at your local store is heavily dependent on what your store ordered, what the local community profile is like and how well the store judged their local community.
But it's hardly surprising that any copies of End Times books that didn't sell out immediately became steaming piles of turds on the shelves, WHFB fans were enjoying End Times right up until they figured out it was actually the end, after which many people preferred to flush it from their memories and pretend it never happened. Shifting End Times product AFTER the End Times was never going to be lucrative.
triplegrim wrote: So, the latest releaae mentions Avasar Kull. Can he co exist with Louen the Orc Slayer? Different wikis say they lived a century apart?
Yeah, Louen Orcslayer started his reign in 2201 iirc and was noted to have personannly lead the cleansing of Bretonnia from Orks for the next century, and Asavar Kull can easily be centuries old due to chaos shenanigans, and did of course die in 2304 at the culmination of the Great War against Chaos. Kings of Bretonnia are usually also Grail Knights and have much extended lifespans due to the Grail's magic, so it checks out.
Now i am going to toss this out their. GW did say that the Old World was going to take place during the time of three emperors. Since this period of time does not just cover the Great War with Chaos, but also the Vampire Wars, Gorbad Ironclaw's Waagh on the empire, The War of Sand and Blood in land of the dead, Norse raids on the high elves, the Second Skaven Civil War, and the other conflicts and campaign settings. This would make more sense then focusing on a single war that the whole of the Warhammer World was not a part of. GW could release the different conflicts/wars/campaigns as a source book with the major and minor players, the world/politics/intrigues of the time, different armies that were part of the war, the SC's and RoR that may have been their as well. That kind of thing
Paymaster Games wrote: Now i am going to toss this out their. GW did say that the Old World was going to take place during the time of three emperors. Since this period of time does not just cover the Great War with Chaos, but also the Vampire Wars, Gorbad Ironclaw's Waagh on the empire, The War of Sand and Blood in land of the dead, Norse raids on the high elves, the Second Skaven Civil War, and the other conflicts and campaign settings. This would make more sense then focusing on a single war that the whole of the Warhammer World was not a part of. GW could release the different conflicts/wars/campaigns as a source book with the major and minor players, the world/politics/intrigues of the time, different armies that were part of the war, the SC's and RoR that may have been their as well. That kind of thing
Having a base rulebook and army book with Storm of Chaos style sourcebooks with campaigns, armies and sub factions sounds very attractive to me.
They said it’ll take place during that time period. We can still head anywhere in the world during those years.
Plenty of story scope for that 20 years span if we go with that.
I personally hope TOW is successful enough for them to develop the less explored regions of the world like Ind and the southern continent. We know there’s “good” beastmen down there, as well as a bunch of human nations. After Cathay, of course.
Mr_Rose wrote: I personally hope TOW is successful enough for them to develop the less explored regions of the world like Ind and the southern continent. We know there’s “good” beastmen down there, as well as a bunch of human nations. After Cathay, of course.
I would love to see a Far East source book with Cathey, Nippon, Ogre Kingdoms, and Hobgoblin Khanate, with mercenaries from Ind and the other lands of the East, but i do not think that is going to happen.
You know it might. GW will only make rules for models so lets break it down, 4 Heroes ( General, BSB, Wizard, Random Hero), 4 units (Light foot troops, Heavy Foot, Light Cav, heavy cav), one artillery, one monster. This is very do able.
Mr_Rose wrote: I personally hope TOW is successful enough for them to develop the less explored regions of the world like Ind and the southern continent. We know there’s “good” beastmen down there, as well as a bunch of human nations. After Cathay, of course.
I would love to see a Far East source book with Cathey, Nippon, Ogre Kingdoms, and Hobgoblin Khanate, with mercenaries from Ind and the other lands of the East, but i do not think that is going to happen.
You know it might. GW will only make rules for models so lets break it down, 4 Heroes ( General, BSB, Wizard, Random Hero), 4 units (Light foot troops, Heavy Foot, Light Cav, heavy cav), one artillery, one monster. This is very do able.
A sourcebook like that certainly would have to thread very very carefully in order not to become Warhammer Armies: Racism, and GW has a less than stellar record on that front. It's probably too risky for a game that just start to re-establish itself.
Mr_Rose wrote: I personally hope TOW is successful enough for them to develop the less explored regions of the world like Ind and the southern continent. We know there’s “good” beastmen down there, as well as a bunch of human nations. After Cathay, of course.
I would love to see a Far East source book with Cathey, Nippon, Ogre Kingdoms, and Hobgoblin Khanate, with mercenaries from Ind and the other lands of the East, but i do not think that is going to happen.
You know it might. GW will only make rules for models so lets break it down, 4 Heroes ( General, BSB, Wizard, Random Hero), 4 units (Light foot troops, Heavy Foot, Light Cav, heavy cav), one artillery, one monster. This is very do able.
A sourcebook like that certainly would have to thread very very carefully in order not to become Warhammer Armies: Racism, and GW has a less than stellar record on that front. It's probably too risky for a game that just start to re-establish itself.
Which reminds me of the 'outrage' over the old D&D Oriental Adventures playing into medieval Asian stereotypes. As if D&D and WFB aren't already playing into medieval European stereotypes.
Generally speaking Western culture is OK with racism against whites (and sexism against men, for that matter) due to both the historical and current institutions of government favoring them.
I wish they had kept the bretonnian stuff around longer. The plastic men at arms, Pegasus knights and others were still recent kits when AoS came along and then poof they were gone what a couple years later? What a waste ☹️
Tomb kings were much the same, unless you count the skeletons themselves being the ancient kit with new shields. Several brand new kits including the plastic sphynx gone in an instant.
Which reminds me; I really, really hope they do something different with chariots in TOW; the old way clearly was not working.
John D Law wrote: I wish they had kept the bretonnian stuff around longer. The plastic men at arms, Pegasus knights and others were still recent kits when AoS came along and then poof they were gone what a couple years later? What a waste ☹️
Umm, I mean they were from the end of 6th edition, so depends what you call 'recent'
Edit, looks to me to be 2004, so they were around over a decade.
They still kept around empire and dwarf kits that are much older. Just don’t understand the need to nix them. They were good kits imo. Same with a lot of the aforementioned tomb kings kits.
John D Law wrote: They still kept around empire and dwarf kits that are much older. Just don’t understand the need to nix them. They were good kits imo. Same with a lot of the aforementioned tomb kings kits.
No, they didn't. The dwarves are from 2014, and the oldest empire kits kept around are from 2007. They also fit in with the Sigmar theme better than the Brets did. The Brets suffered from GW not really knowing what to do with them, which is disappointing as they were my favourite faction.
Zombies were from the 90s and only got replaced a year and a half ago, being available and in use for the first two editions of AoS.
The difference is that Tomb Kings and Bretonnians were neglected in Fantasy and got squatted because of it, not because their kits were too old. GW's designers just couldn't be bothered to do anything with them and they likely suffered in terms of sales because of it. To 2015 GW that's a death sentence.
You can also have a look at Blood Bowl where humans and orcs got a second team while there is still no clue as to when we'll even see the Khemri team.
The Old World is a chance to give these factions attention, but for me it's a believe it when I see it matter. Because precedent does not favor Tomb Kings and Bretonnia, no matter how much they feature in the previewed art and maps.
John D Law wrote: They still kept around empire and dwarf kits that are much older. Just don’t understand the need to nix them. They were good kits imo. Same with a lot of the aforementioned tomb kings kits.
They were to generic.
Its basically historical knights that borrow heavily from Arturian legend. Lets not forget the whole sacking of Fantasy Battle was getting rid of anything they could not register as their uniqe IP.
Will be interresting how they deal with this in the coming "The Old World" setting.
Sorry to keep up the general discussion in this news thread.
It all depends on what the game system and, following from that, the economic model for TOW is going to be. If it's really the old WHFB model of mostly great blocks of line infantry, 20+ models per block, 1-2 Lord, 3-4 Heroes, a smattering of cavalry and monsters and some war machines, introducing a new faction that is not already established is a huge risk, just because you need several multipart plastic kits even if you take multiple builds into account. And while that may be practical at the technoligical and productivity level GW currently is at, it also is a huge upfront cost wall for new or returning players, because you'd need to lay down hundreds of Euros just to get to the minimal buy-in for a typical game size.
If they want to avoid a lot of what strangled WHFB in later times, they need to do something about that, either by reducing games size, unit size, or doing something with e.g. unit fillers or the like. Blocked regiments of infantry are a huge part of WHFB's appeal, but it needs to be less expensive and intimidating for newbies.
John D Law wrote: They still kept around empire and dwarf kits that are much older. Just don’t understand the need to nix them. They were good kits imo. Same with a lot of the aforementioned tomb kings kits.
The Bretonnian plastics were pretty damned old, I doubt there's too many core kits that are as old, Lizardmen Saurus and Skinks perhaps? And the Saurus are well overdue for an update (I actually kind of like the Skinks though). They also come from the days when GW's proportions were the worst. The archer models had absolutely massive heads. Also the horses were too big to rank up (which given they were in Lance Formation I always found more egregious than other cavalry units not ranking up easily). I did like the men at arms, but aesthetically I preferred the metal ones they replaced.
The Perry twins metal Bretonnians that predated the plastics that were around when WHFB was killed were, IMO, better models.
John D Law wrote: They still kept around empire and dwarf kits that are much older. Just don’t understand the need to nix them. They were good kits imo. Same with a lot of the aforementioned tomb kings kits.
The Bretonnian plastics were pretty damned old, I doubt there's too many core kits that are as old, Lizardmen Saurus and Skinks perhaps? And the Saurus are well overdue for an update (I actually kind of like the Skinks though). They also come from the days when GW's proportions were the worst. The archer models had absolutely massive heads. Also the horses were too big to rank up (which given they were in Lance Formation I always found more egregious than other cavalry units not ranking up easily). I did like the men at arms, but aesthetically I preferred the metal ones they replaced.
The Perry twins metal Bretonnians that predated the plastics that were around when WHFB was killed were, IMO, better models.
They were better models, but not better Warhammer models. They were too close to various historical styles, and not specifically 'warhammery' enough in the eyes of GW, much like large parts of the Empire range.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Generally speaking Western culture is OK with racism against whites (and sexism against men, for that matter) due to both the historical and current institutions of government favoring them.
If you can't laugh at yourself, you've got no business laughing at anyone else. That's a lesson that seems to have been forgotten in the modern world.
John D Law wrote: They still kept around empire and dwarf kits that are much older. Just don’t understand the need to nix them. They were good kits imo. Same with a lot of the aforementioned tomb kings kits.
They were to generic.
Its basically historical knights that borrow heavily from Arturian legend. Lets not forget the whole sacking of Fantasy Battle was getting rid of anything they could not register as their uniqe IP.
Will be interresting how they deal with this in the coming "The Old World" setting.
Sorry to keep up the general discussion in this news thread.
This is just speculation that keeps getting repeated despite not really being how copyright/IP law works. It doesn't matter how "unique" a design is, it doesn't add extra protection to it whether it's something like historical-based Bretonnian Knights or its instead some sort of unique outright magical fantasy knight.
That they're going back to the Old World and keeping those original "non-unique" designs of something like the Bretonnian Knights further shows its not the case.
Grumpy Gnome wrote: But will there be Orks or Orruks in the Old World? Lizardmen or Seraphon? Dwarves or Duardin?
You need to look at the links on the first page, they answered this already.
It said in short:
"feth no, it's not going to be on rounds."
"feth no, it's not going to be Warmaster."
"feth no, it's not going to have AOS names."
"Cherry picked rules from all editions from 3rd to 8th, plus some new stuff."
You are correct. That is what they said. However, that may not be what we eventually see in the future.
By that logic, nothing they say is really relevant until they show models in production, finished printed material and boxes. Everything before that could be changed again.
The Old World will be in the hands of Specialist Games with all that entails. While we can't rule out that GW may go back on earlier statements, it doesn't make much sense to have a side game aimed at bringing in customers who may not be interested in the main games and then mixing things from the new setting into the old one that drove people away to begin with. In Blood Bowl an orc is still an orc and a dwarf is still a dwarf, and there is no Sigmarine team in spite of early concerns that GW might introduce AoS stuff into the game.
The models are where we're likely to see the biggest change from what some may recollect as Warhammer Fantasy. Just like in Blood Bowl and Necromunda, there is no way GW's sculptors won't work to modern GW style instead of what we used to have twenty years ago, which will primarily result in embiggened models. We'll be seeing dwarfs in the style of 8th ed plastic Longbeards and Ironbreakers rather than their metal predecessors. But there is precious little reason to believe these won't be called dwarfs in The Old World.
Grumpy Gnome wrote: But will there be Orks or Orruks in the Old World? Lizardmen or Seraphon? Dwarves or Duardin?
From the last WC article
More precisely, we decided to look into the decades prior to this legendary world-changing event. In those years before the Chaos Lord Asavar Kull led his armies south against the nations of Men and Dwarfs,
From the moors and mountains come roving bands of Orcs and Goblins, looting and pillaging,
Grumpy Gnome wrote: But will there be Orks or Orruks in the Old World? Lizardmen or Seraphon? Dwarves or Duardin?
From the last WC article
More precisely, we decided to look into the decades prior to this legendary world-changing event. In those years before the Chaos Lord Asavar Kull led his armies south against the nations of Men and Dwarfs,
From the moors and mountains come roving bands of Orcs and Goblins, looting and pillaging,
They can always claim "Dwarfs" and "Orcs" are terms commonly used by humans, but in their own respective culture they have a more fancy name. Like Eldar suddenly are the ancient culture of the Aeldari, with further sub-groups like Asyriani and Drukhari, and Imperial Guard was just a lazy way of saying "Astra Militarum".
Grumpy Gnome wrote: But will there be Orks or Orruks in the Old World? Lizardmen or Seraphon? Dwarves or Duardin?
From the last WC article
More precisely, we decided to look into the decades prior to this legendary world-changing event. In those years before the Chaos Lord Asavar Kull led his armies south against the nations of Men and Dwarfs,
From the moors and mountains come roving bands of Orcs and Goblins, looting and pillaging,
They can always claim "Dwarfs" and "Orcs" are terms commonly used by humans, but in their own respective culture they have a more fancy name. Like Eldar suddenly are the ancient culture of the Aeldari, with further sub-groups like Asyriani and Drukhari, and Imperial Guard was just a lazy way of saying "Astra Militarum".
Well that is in fact true for Dwarfs - that is a human name - they are Dawi. Gotrek even gets called out on this in AOS. I doubt Orcs and Goblins have a name for their race..
Grumpy Gnome wrote: But will there be Orks or Orruks in the Old World? Lizardmen or Seraphon? Dwarves or Duardin?
You need to look at the links on the first page, they answered this already.
It said in short:
"feth no, it's not going to be on rounds."
"feth no, it's not going to be Warmaster."
"feth no, it's not going to have AOS names."
"Cherry picked rules from all editions from 3rd to 8th, plus some new stuff."
You are correct. That is what they said. However, that may not be what we eventually see in the future.
By that logic, nothing they say is really relevant until they show models in production, finished printed material and boxes. Everything before that could be changed again.
It's their way to validate constantly saying it's going to be all those things I listed despite being told explicitly that they weren't...
Things can absolutely change during the development of a game. But with zero evidence of any change to those statements, they’ve got to be kept and held at face value.
Would GW go to all the trouble of bringing it back, to set its ablaze with changing some of its core features.
Like after last time, deliberately poking that seems foolish.
There is lot that can be changed before the core itself is hollow out. I just don’t think they would put the work in to then change the reasons to bring it back.
Grumpy Gnome wrote: But will there be Orks or Orruks in the Old World? Lizardmen or Seraphon? Dwarves or Duardin?
So lets consider why GW used a lot of name changes for things when they shifted from Old World to AoS. First it was a new setting so there was that, but another reason, logically, is that by shifting to unique names GW could copyright and protect those names. This meant that GW would be the only ones who could sell Orruks, the only ones who could advertise Orruks and thus the only ones that should show up in google rankings when Orruks are searched.
The actual models are not as strongly protected, yes the specific sculpts 100% are protected and certain design elements within them can and are protected as well. Anyone who has hung around 3d printing for a while has likely seen a standard GW copyright letter or spoken to creators who have had copyright strikes by GW. When its sculptors (not retailers selling) then generally speaking GW cannot enforce a blanket ban; its more specific. They can't ban a man in heavy armour, but they can enforce protection of the symbols for chapters and protect certain key design elements. The shape of a bolter is likely protected, but you can change enough to have the same effect of a huge high calibre gun.
So all GW protects with unique names are the copyright of those name and the search results. Back when AoS was brought out GW was still in full Kirby mode - that meant almost zero online marketing and advertising. They had the store ,but otherwise their interactions online at the time was more focused on shutting down leaks and rumour websites. GW of that time in management likely felt they needed totally unique names to protect their google rankings and search results to remain relevant and to stop 3rd parties stealing their thunder.
Today GW is marketing online every day of the year; with most week days seen up to 5 articles posted on their community site alone; couple that with mirror posts on Facebook and other sites and their own unique posts on those sites and weekend posts too and you've got a marketing machine. GW doesn't "need" to protect their search results with unique names like they used too - they've protected them with an insanely powerful and active online marketing machine. They can safely go back to Orks and Knights and Dwarves and Lizardmen because GW is on the ball with the online world now. They GET how it works, they've professionals and marketing teams and a functional online interaction now.
They can always claim "Dwarfs" and "Orcs" are terms commonly used by humans, but in their own respective culture they have a more fancy name. Like Eldar suddenly are the ancient culture of the Aeldari, with further sub-groups like Asyriani and Drukhari, and Imperial Guard was just a lazy way of saying "Astra Militarum".
That was already true in WHFB. Dwarfs call themselves Dawi(with Chaos Dwarfs being Dawi-Zharr), High Elves are the Asur, Dark Elves are Druchii, and Wood Elves are Asrai. We've always seen things from human terms with the other races having their own terms for the most part.
They can always claim "Dwarfs" and "Orcs" are terms commonly used by humans, but in their own respective culture they have a more fancy name. Like Eldar suddenly are the ancient culture of the Aeldari, with further sub-groups like Asyriani and Drukhari, and Imperial Guard was just a lazy way of saying "Astra Militarum".
That was already true in WHFB. Dwarfs call themselves Dawi(with Chaos Dwarfs being Dawi-Zharr), High Elves are the Asur, Dark Elves are Druchii, and Wood Elves are Asrai. We've always seen things from human terms with the other races having their own terms for the most part.
By that logic, nothing they say is really relevant until they show models in production, finished printed material and boxes. Everything before that could be changed again.
Yeah, pretty much.
Let's just say trust in GW is not what it used to be.
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Apple fox wrote: Would GW go to all the trouble of bringing it back, to set its ablaze with changing some of its core features.
Like after last time, deliberately poking that seems foolish.
Wouldn't be the first time a corporation made that mistake.
Heck, it wouldn't be the first time a corporation made that mistake this year.
You folks all make some excellent points. I must indeed grin sheepishly at my use of Dwarves instead of Dwarfs.
Use of the older GW terms in Blood Bowl is enough for me, although I must admit I expected the new terms to be used for intellectual property protection it would seem that expectation is misplaced. Mea culpa.
Edit: But let me also be clear, I do not trust GW nor will I be playing in a GW shop. I like playing my games with whatever minis I choose.
Tsagualsa wrote: By that logic, nothing they say is really relevant until they show models in production, finished printed material and boxes. Everything before that could be changed again.
I mean, that's exactly where I'm sitting. From my perspective, this is a lot of excitement and waiting for something that could very well end up being tabletop vaporware.
No real sense in waiting and hoping when there's tons of good fantasy rank n' flank on the market now Nevermind that WHFB veterans have 8 editions to can pick from, as long as they didn't toss or sell their books when the editions changed or the End Times hit.
You can put your minis on the table now, if you have a WHFB army. If you don't, there are other companies making fantastic fantasy minis suitable for rank n' flank, and about a ker-billion STL creators if you own or have access to a resin printer.
triplegrim wrote: So, the latest releaae mentions Avasar Kull. Can he co exist with Louen the Orc Slayer? Different wikis say they lived a century apart?
Yeah, Louen Orcslayer started his reign in 2201 iirc and was noted to have personannly lead the cleansing of Bretonnia from Orks for the next century, and Asavar Kull can easily be centuries old due to chaos shenanigans, and did of course die in 2304 at the culmination of the Great War against Chaos. Kings of Bretonnia are usually also Grail Knights and have much extended lifespans due to the Grail's magic, so it checks out.
There is certainly scope for those two to be contemporaries given Louen could have been around for decades. Assuming they keep to the same lore as previously though, Louen would be dead and buried by the time of the Great War itself, as would his (presumed) successor as Jules was killed by a Chaos Knight on the Northern Coast of Bretonnia some time just prior to 2297 IC, sparking the Affair of the False Grail.
Tsagualsa wrote: By that logic, nothing they say is really relevant until they show models in production, finished printed material and boxes. Everything before that could be changed again.
I mean, that's exactly where I'm sitting. From my perspective, this is a lot of excitement and waiting for something that could very well end up being tabletop vaporware.
No real sense in waiting and hoping when there's tons of good fantasy rank n' flank on the market now Nevermind that WHFB veterans have 8 editions to can pick from, as long as they didn't toss or sell their books when the editions changed or the End Times hit.
You can put your minis on the table now, if you have a WHFB army. If you don't, there are other companies making fantastic fantasy minis suitable for rank n' flank, and about a ker-billion STL creators if you own or have access to a resin printer.
Also those alternatives to GW work out substantially cheaper, for quality that is on par with the GW Lord of the Rings range. So more suitable for rank and file models.
If the new GW Warhammer Fantasy Battles is a good system adding it to a collection of rules will just add more option. As the setting is even further back in the setting than it was previously, it means that a lot more historical kits will also fit in nicely.
Mr Morden wrote: Nice to see some more square based Wolf boyz on Warhammer Community
Tell me wrong, but doesnt it feel a fresh paintjob? Or they just have a photo from a unit, that isnt in production for like 2-3 years.
I mean you guys propebly know the rumour from hastings, that GW have painted up some Orc boar boys. Now this. Do you think they will bring back squatted minis?
Platuan4th wrote: The previous studio examples look very similar but have the banner hair painted red. Could just be they updated the unit they had in storage.
Who knows, it need not mean a lot, there's always the possibility that the OOP miniatures are just touched up for a showcase for the 40th anniversary celebration, or that some limited made to order runs will be made available for that.
Platuan4th wrote: The previous studio examples look very similar but have the banner hair painted red. Could just be they updated the unit they had in storage.
Last time I saw the Warhammer worlds exibition models on video, they all where on ovals and rounds. Why would you store old models?
Also what are people going buy for the game, when it starts. Do you think they updated all minis for all of the factions?
Because GWHQ has a literal GW museum that they the rotate game history displays for. Someone even noted that the Tomb King models were on display during the summer in the last thread.
Also don't forget GW models are paid to be painted, its an investment. Why throw that away when the amount of space to store them is tiny. As long as they've a sensible inventory system they can store up loads of models. Especially as they typically only paint up one squad per model box; so they aren't sitting on vast armies each time they make a model.
Mr Morden wrote: Nice to see some more square based Wolf boyz on Warhammer Community
Tell me wrong, but doesnt it feel a fresh paintjob? Or they just have a photo from a unit, that isnt in production for like 2-3 years.
I mean you guys propebly know the rumour from hastings, that GW have painted up some Orc boar boys. Now this. Do you think they will bring back squatted minis?
Honestly? It would take them zero effort to bust out some boxed sets like the old Battalion boxes from older molds. Take up a bit of space on shelves, but all contained and away you go. Maybe supplement boxes with the elite units. It'd give them plenty of kit to hit the ground running when TOW launches.
Platuan4th wrote: The previous studio examples look very similar but have the banner hair painted red. Could just be they updated the unit they had in storage.
Last time I saw the Warhammer worlds exibition models on video, they all where on ovals and rounds. Why would you store old models?
Also what are people going buy for the game, when it starts. Do you think they updated all minis for all of the factions?
They buy new models? Do you think they will release multiple armies all at once? Would be nice but not hoping for getting loads of old kits back on sale.
They buy new models? Do you think they will release multiple armies all at once? Would be nice but not hoping for getting loads of old kits back on sale.
Okay, but let's say they put out Kislev,Chaos and Empire at first, thats whats the rumours say. What, if I am a new player and into Dwarfs or Tomb Kings or Orcs and Goblins? What do they sell to me then?
herjan1987 wrote: Okay, but let's say they put out Kislev,Chaos and Empire at first, thats whats the rumours say. What, if I am a new player and into Dwarfs or Tomb Kings or Orcs and Goblins? What do they sell to me then?
We don't know how GW will handle this, perhaps they haven't decided yet? But I agree that all those WHFB models still on sale with AOS-packaging is looking more and more like an elephant in the room.
It makes a lot of sense for GW to repackage or re-release the old WHFB-models but It's not how they usually operate. One could also argue that it doesn't make sense to support a new game with old models.
Time will tell, I'm very curious about this myself! I also dream of MTO for Perry Empire and Kevin Adams O&G!
They buy new models? Do you think they will release multiple armies all at once? Would be nice but not hoping for getting loads of old kits back on sale.
Okay, but let's say they put out Kislev,Chaos and Empire at first, thats whats the rumours say. What, if I am a new player and into Dwarfs or Tomb Kings or Orcs and Goblins? What do they sell to me then?
Nothing.
What does GW sell for xenos players in adeptus titanicus? Nothing.
They would in this case wait for new orcs&goblin models etc to come out.
Or rather they aim to get you buy new models. Not put out old models on sale you MAYBE don't have already.
GW would also find it tricky to put up new model price to old models.
tneva82 wrote: They would in this case wait for new orcs&goblin models etc to come out.
Not impossible at all, I could see GW doing it this way. But I really do wonder where that would leave the 20+ boxes of old WHFB O&G models that are currently on sale under the AOS-brand?
Night Goblins, Savage Orcs, Spider Riders, River Trolls etc are all there right now! Would GW just pretend that they are not WHFB-models? Again, not impossible, I can see GW doing exactly that too.
GW tends to hate cross -selling - they vaguely do it with Underworlds and AOS but its all super minimum effort. They could do a lot more with things like Daemons, beastmen etc across ranges.
On the army lists; I feel like they’re going to follow the HH pattern and release fewer but larger compilations of related models with separate lists. It would certainly work for the Empire factions at least; the basic human troopers with all the specific elements in appendices.
Same for chaos, vampires.
Less so for O&G and the rest though but then HH has things like liber imperium that houses 3 completely unrelated lists.
Im really excited for the OW, but drawing of models and concepts we've arleady seen decades before, isnt really building up on that excitement. Would be fun to see at least one model, even if it wont be release untilll a few years (they've done it for sob)
streetsamurai wrote: Im really excited for the OW, but drawing of models and concepts we've arleady seen decades before, isnt really building up on that excitement. Would be fun to see at least one model, even if it wont be release untilll a few years (they've done it for sob)
They already talked about that essentially every Kislev unit in TWW3 is a potential new Kislev model since the designs originated in the GW design studio.
Platuan4th wrote: The previous studio examples look very similar but have the banner hair painted red. Could just be they updated the unit they had in storage.
Who knows, it need not mean a lot, there's always the possibility that the OOP miniatures are just touched up for a showcase for the 40th anniversary celebration, or that some limited made to order runs will be made available for that.
That exact picture is in the 8th edition O&G army book, page 85. So, no, it's not an updated unit, they just recycled an old image.
GW has/had at least 2 studio painted Wolf Rider units, one with spears (the one with the red banner) and one with bows (this one with the grey banner).
Platuan4th wrote: The previous studio examples look very similar but have the banner hair painted red. Could just be they updated the unit they had in storage.
Who knows, it need not mean a lot, there's always the possibility that the OOP miniatures are just touched up for a showcase for the 40th anniversary celebration, or that some limited made to order runs will be made available for that.
That exact picture is in the 8th edition O&G army book, page 85. So, no, it's not an updated unit, they just recycled an old image.
GW has/had at least 2 studio painted Wolf Rider units, one with spears (the one with the red banner) and one with bows (this one with the grey banner).
There's an old studio version with bows that also has a red banner:
Rihgu wrote: I can confirm that the image, with the black tassles, is from the 8th ed army book - not a new image.
Okay, why keep a ten year old image around?
Also I said, that hastings was rumoring that they painted up some Orc boar boys recently and old Tomb Kings and Bretonnian plastics went back to production to recieve fancy paintjobs.
Why not? GW constantly reuses artwork, and i some cases photographs, that are years or even decades old. Producing photographs or other reproductions costs money, reusing assets that you already acquired or produced just makes sense from an economic perspective, especially if you need to pad out a lot of filler articles and social media chaff at all times.
Rihgu wrote: I can confirm that the image, with the black tassles, is from the 8th ed army book - not a new image.
Okay, why keep a ten year old image around?
Also I said, that hastings was rumoring that they painted up some Orc boar boys recently and old Tomb Kings and Bretonnian plastics went back to production to recieve fancy paintjobs.
Why not? Couple bits so expense is about 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000001£. (and that probably is several magnitudes more expensive than it actually is)
They keep old art as well...
If you think they would keep old sprues around for OOP items when keeping them around costs more cash why have hard time believing they would keep images that have far less expenses?
Rihgu wrote: I can confirm that the image, with the black tassles, is from the 8th ed army book - not a new image.
Okay, why keep a ten year old image around?
Umm, why would they delete it? GW clearly keeps the digital assets going back a long way, they're releasing White Dwarfs from 17 years ago on Warhammer+, it's not like they're recreating those White Dwarfs from scratch, they have all those digital assets on hand.
Also I said, that hastings was rumoring that they painted up some Orc boar boys recently and old Tomb Kings and Bretonnian plastics went back to production to recieve fancy paintjobs.
I know it's a rumour, but also I reckon the more likely thing is they already had those models around. GW has a bunch of studio painted models beyond what we see.... and in this case they were ones we had seen before people just didn't recognise them at first
At the end of the day, we don't really know what GW are planning and what their motivations are. It's oft stated that Bretonnians were terrible because they were too generic and not popular, but a lot of TOW stuff they've teased is around Bretonnia for whatever reason. A lot of concept art I'm sure is generated during the conception and development of a new project, why GW have chosen to do what they've done, I think people are reading into it too much at this point.
Bretonnians were a self-fulfilling prophecy. They lacked popularity because they had a 13 year old book. Dark Eldar were in a similar state before 2010.
It's a repeat pattern with wargamers. If GW ignores an army model and/or rules wise for long enough the sales and interest drop enough that it falls into a deadzone where it needs significant investment to bring it back up.
Marketing also plays a big part in it; if GW just don't mention or market an army for a long while it drops in popularity.
Another part of the equation is that until recently they relied on faction champions to drive enthusiasm and engagement within the studio itself, except that they were self-selected informal volunteer roles so if there was no-one in the studio that really wanted “Arthurian knights, but comedy French” as a faction, no-one had any scheduled time to work on them, further contributing to the vicious cycle of inattention and neglect.
I am not going to worry about some of you negative Nancy's. I am still super excited.
Moving on to another rumour, the release date. Their is a great deal of talk saying the release date would likely be Q3 or Q4 of this year to work along with the 40th anniversary of Warhammer. But according to some of the distributers i have spoken to seem to under the impression that the release date would likely be in Q1 of 2024.
While i would prefer the earlier date, i am fine with early next year. what are your thoughts?
Paymaster Games wrote: I am not going to worry about some of you negative Nancy's. I am still super excited.
Moving on to another rumour, the release date. Their is a great deal of talk saying the release date would likely be Q3 or Q4 of this year to work along with the 40th anniversary of Warhammer. But according to some of the distributers i have spoken to seem to under the impression that the release date would likely be in Q1 of 2024.
While i would prefer the earlier date, i am fine with early next year. what are your thoughts?
I can imagine they do a starter box for the anniversary, it would be awesome. And gives some build up time for it.
Just a this is where it begins, and then starting off the next year with a look at the full game release.
Paymaster Games wrote: I am not going to worry about some of you negative Nancy's. I am still super excited.
Moving on to another rumour, the release date. Their is a great deal of talk saying the release date would likely be Q3 or Q4 of this year to work along with the 40th anniversary of Warhammer. But according to some of the distributers i have spoken to seem to under the impression that the release date would likely be in Q1 of 2024.
While i would prefer the earlier date, i am fine with early next year. what are your thoughts?
I would LOVE to be excited, but I was excited to see what would happen after End Times, and got burned something ferocious.
If the full story we have now was available to us back then it would not have been received NEARLY as bad. Major communication failure on behalf of 'we don't do market research' era GW.
NinthMusketeer wrote: If the full story we have now was available to us back then it would not have been received NEARLY as bad. Major communication failure on behalf of 'we don't do market research' era GW.
That’s because the story we have now didn’t exist then. The dude running the company at the time literally thought no-one would care if the rules were terrible and the background nonexistent if the minis were good enough. Which was a shame because he greenlit the og Stormcast too.
It's a repeat pattern with wargamers. If GW ignores an army model and/or rules wise for long enough the sales and interest drop enough that it falls into a deadzone where it needs significant investment to bring it back up.
Marketing also plays a big part in it; if GW just don't mention or market an army for a long while it drops in popularity.
I don't think its so much significant investment, you just need a wave of models.
The problem is the Brets lacked obvious avenues for expansion.
I mean... you could release new kits for young knights, average knights, better knights, best knights, knights on flying horses, not-quite knights but still riding horses and then the various peasants. But its not obviously sending the faction in an interesting new direction.
There's probably some sort of scope for monstrous cav maybe - but it would kind of go against the fluff. See also doing something with warmachines, or magic.
Without any insight, I'd be surprised if this came out this year if you assume a new edition of 40k is meant to dominate the summer.
Most factions don't need a "new direction" and to say that an army based on Medieval concepts of the Knights of the Round Table and real french armies has no avenue to expand is possibly just overlooking that its a huge theme you can expand upon.
And when it comes to GW a model is concept art, sculpting, mould design, mould production, master copies, painting, photos, cardstock, shipping - its a big investment and that's not even counting writing words, editing and ordering new books and shipping them as well.
And many times just updating models to a newer sculpt design with modern materials/concepts can be a big interest spark. Just look at how many forces in AoS are really behind - heck the Skaven are still running around with 1st generation plastics and metal and Skaven are a really popular army in general. Old World was neglected for a long time; it didn't get the marketing, nor the updates it required to keep current and its sales fell. Once interest and sales fell local interest got harder. It didn't help that GW also made the games larger and larger so the model count to get started went up.
So you had fewer local players; less marketing and company interest and a bigger model count to get started (accepting that with the rank and file rules most armies didn't work until at least 1K points and ideally 1.5K).
But if you were expanding Brets you can do loads of updates
3 or 4 ground cavalry kits; 2 or 3 pegasus kits for infantry
Several named heroes in both forms.
A big centre stage lady of the lake on unicorn style model.
A court of famous knights (round table) group of named heroes.
Various kinds of rank and file infantry and peasant infantry.
Siege weapons - light support weapons and all. Yes even Brets would need such weapons in war.
We've not even touched on things like ranged weapon options; fancy fantasy units plucked from King Arthur's legends or French mythology around those times; nor even what real militaries could bring to the mix.
Heck they could have spliced a load of ranger Robbin Hoods in and mounted versions for light ranged cavalry.
Brets actually had a whole bunch of warmachines in 3rd ed that could have been brought back. Also, units of foot knights. There's plenty they could have done that would have also expanded them beyond their 3 meme lists of All The Horses, All The Pegasi, and Agincourt Peasantry.
I mean... you could release new kits for young knights, average knights, better knights, best knights, knights on flying horses, not-quite knights but still riding horses and then the various peasants. But its not obviously sending the faction in an interesting new direction.
There's probably some sort of scope for monstrous cav maybe - but it would kind of go against the fluff. See also doing something with warmachines, or magic.
I think people forget what a weird retcon those 'fluff' restrictions were. Earlier Bret armies happily fielded equivalent cannons and crossbows. The main difference was Empire had better foot knights and handguns, while Bret had war altars and +4 Shock elite cav (2 attacks) which the Empire list couldn't match.
Without any insight, I'd be surprised if this came out this year if you assume a new edition of 40k is meant to dominate the summer.
The very first preview (November 2019- the 'we have a logo and that's all' preview) put it at 3+ years off, minimum. And that was before everything world-wide and GW's own struggle to sort out their production and warehouse issues.
They might have eyed summer 2023 originally in a pure thought experiment draft release schedule, but even then I doubt it. With all the everything that's happened, I wouldn't be shocked by 2025.
Why are the Brets such a point of negativity here? The brets have a good army
Knights -
RotR and Knights Errent have the same role
Grail Knights - General or BSB bodyguard/ Hammer unit
Questing Knights - Different Role then all above knights, can act as a anvil unit and can effectively fight, heavies, big guys, and monsters
Pegasus Knights - Flyer unit and big guy unit
Commoners -
Squires - light cav
Grail Pilgrams - Heavy foot
Men-at -arms - light foot
Bowmen - Archer
Trebuchet - a pretty good artillery piece
Do you need to expand this army? Not really this army is pretty much figured out, but lets say we had too here are some ideas supported by fluff.
Sailors (the Brets do have the best sailors in the old world according to Man-O-War, it is possible that they would come ashore)
Brigands (Robin Hood) Scouts
Woodsmen - Modeled after Frankish Ax Throwers
Wood Elf Impersonators/ fans - Modeled after Celt Fanatics
Paymaster Games wrote: Why are the Brets such a point of negativity here? The brets have a good army
I collected Brets back in the day, I didn't bring them up in terms of negativity against them, I was just pointing out that it was commonly stated that Brets weren't popular and GW didn't like Brets because they were too generic to be copyrightable... and yet Brets have featured heavily in GW's teasers for TOW so far.
The whole "too generic to be copyrightable" is something the community made up to try and justify just what madness was happening during End Times.
It has no foundation in reality. Nothing in AoS is any more copyrightable than anything in Old World was. Heck most of the AoS models are just Old World sculpts with a new name.
The madness around Old World to Age of Sigmar wasn't born of copyright, it was born of a management team viewing the game purely through the eyes of watching sales metrics and zero customer feedback.
Don't forget Age of Sigmar at launch wasn't a wargame. It was a boutique line of models that had some fluffy fun silly rules to go with it if you wanted to play; but as most customers weren't gamers it didn't really matter. People just wanted cool models and if the models weren't selling then it was a creative problem not a rules, updates, or anything else problem.
Of course this wasn't the actual fact and its why AoS stalled; its why GW had to do a massive change in direction and its why their management had to have a huge shakeup as well.
Oh and not to mention that GW did all that with zero marketing before pulling Old World one morning and then releasing AoS
Voss wrote: I think people forget what a weird retcon those 'fluff' restrictions were. Earlier Bret armies happily fielded equivalent cannons and crossbows. The main difference was Empire had better foot knights and handguns, while Bret had war altars and +4 Shock elite cav (2 attacks) which the Empire list couldn't match.
I'm going to plead less "forget" and more "had not been born". (Or in my case, had just been born but unsurprisingly wasn't playing warhammer.)
I can't really claim to know what things were like in 3rd edition - and suspect that goes for the majority of people given the subsequent expansion of the hobby/franchise. I don't think Bret's got an army book in 4th edition and I'm not sure if any of the older models were still available to buy in stores at that time (circa 1994 I think was when I started, so I can remember 5th edition coming out).
Bit of a weird article I felt, it doesn't give much background on them.
I don't even recognise those models. I have some of the plastics that were available in the late 90's, and also some of the metal skeletons, don't recognise these guys though, what year did they come out?
Yes I have some - came before the skeleton army set which added bowmen, horses and chariots. Great box set, I bashed on some spares from recent skeleton sets to fill out my units and they look great.
I think they were in those monopose 'regiment' box sets that had 8-12 models in one or two poses in them and came before the multipart plastic regiment boxes in the late 90s and early 00s.
I think they were in those monopose 'regiment' box sets that had 8-12 models in one or two poses in them and came before the multipart plastic regiment boxes in the late 90s and early 00s.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: Bit of a weird article I felt, it doesn't give much background on them.
I don't even recognise those models. I have some of the plastics that were available in the late 90's, and also some of the metal skeletons, don't recognise these guys though, what year did they come out?
I agree it is a weird article. Especially since the title is '40 Years of Warhammer – The Classic Skeleton Horde Rises From the Grave'.
Sounds like a reprint.
My guess is they are simply trying to memorialize the 40k, but perhaps also climatize the fan base for whatever the Old World models will look like.
The first 2 models in the first article were Slambo and The imperial space marine.
I mean... you could release new kits for young knights, average knights, better knights, best knights, knights on flying horses, not-quite knights but still riding horses and then the various peasants. But its not obviously sending the faction in an interesting new direction.
There's probably some sort of scope for monstrous cav maybe - but it would kind of go against the fluff. See also doing something with warmachines, or magic.
I think people forget what a weird retcon those 'fluff' restrictions were. Earlier Bret armies happily fielded equivalent cannons and crossbows. The main difference was Empire had better foot knights and handguns, while Bret had war altars and +4 Shock elite cav (2 attacks) which the Empire list couldn't match.
The funny thing is you could bring back crossbows easily enough.. Call a faction of "Rogue Knights" who have decided Honor is bunk and that they will win at all costs for the homeland whether or not the Homeland agrees with them.
We're lucky to be getting TOW at all, and if there's new models or updated ancient kits then even the disgruntled will have something new for playing 6th edition or whatever they like.
