39309
Post by: Jidmah
Leth wrote:I played two games of 40k that had necrons with ork allies. Both were bike based contingents. I won both, however in the second game the nob bikers unit with warboss against chaos demons was really REALLY good. They just ate through anything that landed I was thinking of upgrading everyone to having big choppas with one of them having a claw. With the wagghh banner it was just the number of attacks was staggering. With cybork body and FNP the unit took two wounds all game.
Also took Dakkajet in both games and it has maintained a 1:1 kill ratio so far. One round of shooting one dead whatever(usually vehicles or MCs)
Something I realized during my games, was that big choppas aren't that important to crack vehicles anymore. Since nobz hit vehicles on a 3+ now, I often had the doc and two sacrificial nobz glance a vehicle to death before I even rolled for the big choppas. So I'm not sure whether they are worth their points anymore.
mrfantastical wrote:So what does everyone feel about Defkopta's (specifically 5 with Kustom Mega Blastas)?
Every turn you should get at least 1 hit, and with Ap2 being the magical +1 to vehicle damage rolls they are looking like some of the best range vehicle killers in our book.
Was thinking of running this list:
Rokkits on koptaz are twin-linked, KMB are not. Without doing the math, hitting 33% more often should offset +1 to the damage table.
36940
Post by: Anvildude
But would it also offset the ingoring of Termie armour?
Deffkoptas are, in my oppinion, one of the most underrated units in the Kodex, in the last edition and this one. They have 2 Wounds, higher Toughness, and enough options to Shenaniganize (for 5th, that is) including a Powerklaw, anti-infantry, anti-tank and anti-Termie options, and a bomb. They're very fast, and can be taken in decent sized units, and they have Hit and Run and Scout, plus Choppa and Slugga, meaning they have an extra attack.
They're essentially a faster, lighter and cheaper Nob Biker squad.
39309
Post by: Jidmah
Yup, and they still have crap LD and no boss pole. I own 30 deff koptaz and have tried about anything with them, including the "I'm crashing 30 ork koptaz into your baneblade"-formation.
They do awesome until your opponent finds out that a tank shock will make them fall back 3d6 roughly 40% of the time. And then there's all those new ld-based curses from the psychic tables. At least they can't get pinned anymore.
33033
Post by: kenshin620
Anvildude wrote:But would it also offset the ingoring of Termie armour?
Ehh I agree that rokkits is where its at. When it comes to termies, just swarm them will bullets and they'll go down
60430
Post by: Da yella 'eads
So what does everyone feel about Defkopta's (specifically 5 with Kustom Mega Blastas)?
Every turn you should get at least 1 hit, and with Ap2 being the magical +1 to vehicle damage rolls they are looking like some of the best range vehicle killers in our book.
Rokkits on koptaz are twin-linked, KMB are not. Without doing the math, hitting 33% more often should offset +1 to the damage table.
Indeed, the twin-linked does more or less offset the +1 to the damage table from the KMB:
TL Rokkit Launcha
AV.......Hull Points.......Chance to Wreck
14..............0.09.........................0.00
13..............0.19.........................0.02
12..............0.28.........................0.03
11..............0.37.........................0.05
10..............0.46.........................0.06
Kustom Mega Blasta
AV.......Hull Points.......Chance to Wreck
14..............0.06.........................0.00
13..............0.11.........................0.02
12..............0.17.........................0.04
11..............0.22.........................0.06
10..............0.28.........................0.07
You can see the KMB has a slightly (and I mean slightly) higher chance to wreck but the TL rokkit launcha takes more hull points.
Against infantry they shape up as follows....
TL Rokkit launcha:
Versus.......Chance to Wound
MEQ........................0.462
Teminator..............0.077
KMB:
Versus.......Chance to Wound
MEQ........................0.294
Teminator..............0.185
So there's not much to choose between them except... oh yeah, rokkits don't get hot.
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Post by: matphat
I'm surprised that no one is arguing that the KMB's "Get's Hot" rule should offset this even further...
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Post by: whembly
Jidmah wrote:Dr. What wrote:Well, since Weirdboys have been brought up, what does everybody think about Old Zogwort?
He is as awesome as ever, plus (unlike regular warpheads) no one would dare to challenge him in close combat. The trukkload of I4 attacks wounding on 2+ he dishes out is trouble to anything not wearing MA or TDA
|
Why... 'cuz his squig'ith curse?
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Post by: katfude
I never planned to swap my kopta's rokkits for a kmb, but what about meks? I have 12 burnas and 3 meks to ride around in a BW, taking twin-link out of the equation, does kmb gain any ground?
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Post by: Ascalam
whembly wrote:Jidmah wrote:Dr. What wrote:Well, since Weirdboys have been brought up, what does everybody think about Old Zogwort?
He is as awesome as ever, plus (unlike regular warpheads) no one would dare to challenge him in close combat. The trukkload of I4 attacks wounding on 2+ he dishes out is trouble to anything not wearing MA or TDA
|
Why... 'cuz his squig'ith curse?
In CC he still has to roll for his powers, but half of them get replaced with making his attacks power weapons. (Ead banger, frazzle,zzapp), which means he as an I 4 power weapon that wounds on 2+ for his snakes, and the same at lower I for his regular attacks. He can be pretty deadly if he manages to live live enough to use them.
Back before the power weapon rewrite there were times he'd take down a whole (small) unit or a potent character that struck at lower inititive (due to powerfist/Thammer usually) before getting gacked.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
katfude wrote:I never planned to swap my kopta's rokkits for a kmb, but what about meks? I have 12 burnas and 3 meks to ride around in a BW, taking twin-link out of the equation, does kmb gain any ground?
Kopta KMB aren't twin linked :( If they were they might be worth it, maybe..
KMB were so-so in 5th, and IMO worse in 6th. They deliver quite a punch, but so does a rokkit, without killing you or glancing your own vehicles down. The only benefit would be the AP 2, but it hink someone figured out that you stand a better chance of killing yourself than the terminator you aimed at 
I use them occasionally, and sometimes it's even been worth it, but i prefer the rokkits.
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Post by: Beer4TheBeerGod
skyfi wrote:Considering running normal nobs and a megaboss up front to use 2+ for whole squad, and let big mek provide BP for MANZ..
Just remember that once you allocate a wound to the MA Warboss you cannot use your 2+ LoSir roll to reallocate it after you fail the save. So you're not really giving a 2+ save to the whole squad.
Orkaswampa wrote:
If i've missed anything let me know  But frankly i think this is between Speed / Endurance ( MANZ being endurance).
You forgot that, as of now, MANz are not characters. Sure it may change in the future, but as of right now that's a pretty big deal. You also forgot that Nobz have access to WAAAGH! banners to give them +1 WS, whereas MANz do not.
I think both have their uses, and a lot of what you do will depend on how the rest of your army will perform. 4 MANz are 160 points. Toss in a battlewagon ( RPJ, BS, Reinforced Ram, Grabba Klaw for plucking flyers out of the sky) and you're talking 270 points. I don't have the codex with me but I think that's the total point cost. In contrast that will get you something like 4 Nob Bikers without any Power Klaws or fun accessories. The bottom line here is that a usable squad of MANz will fit inside a larger force, whereas if you use Nob Bikers you will pretty much be dictating the rest of the army around them. It's neither a pro nor a con, just a difference that needs to be taken into account.
I believe the NOVA Open will go a long ways toward giving us a sense of what does and doesn't work with Orks (and many other armies). I'll be there as a scoring monkey and I'll be sure to keep an eye on what compositions do well.
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Post by: Orkaswampa
True i forgot about Waagh Banner and i cant believe MANZ aren't characters :(
Anyways yes we shall see what happens! Thanks for the enlightenment
42002
Post by: Kharrak
Kustom Mega Blastas are AMAZING, and even more crucial considering the impending popularity of 2+ save units. That ap2 is really, really great for targeting tougher infantry. I've made Obliterators disintegrate, and dented Paladins more so than I've ever done with any other weapon and/or assault.
The issue isn't really with the weapon itself, it's more what you equip them to.
Kopta's are best with Rokkits, I can't deny. Kanz are the best codex platform, arguably, but with their quantity of 3 shots, Grotzookas and Rokkits likely suit them better.
Also, better chance at killing yourself? Nonsense, you have an 8% chance of suffering a glance per shot - compared to a 30% chance to fry a Termie per shot.
Personally, (and unsurprisingly, since I seem to keep bringing them up... apologies  ) Grot Tanks are the best platform. Tossing out 5 shots (if you get the kommanda upgrade) at bs3 is fantastic, and a notable upgrade to ap3 - I've always loved having them on the table. If they suffer the glancing hit from Gets Hot, they at least have the 5+ invul to attempt to negate it.
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Post by: skyfi
Beer4TheBeerGod wrote:skyfi wrote:Considering running normal nobs and a megaboss up front to use 2+ for whole squad, and let big mek provide BP for MANZ..
Just remember that once you allocate a wound to the MA Warboss you cannot use your 2+ LoSir roll to reallocate it after you fail the save. So you're not really giving a 2+ save to the whole squad.
Orkaswampa wrote:
If i've missed anything let me know But frankly i think this is between Speed / Endurance ( MANZ being endurance).
You forgot that, as of now, MANz are not characters. Sure it may change in the future, but as of right now that's a pretty big deal. You also forgot that Nobz have access to WAAAGH! banners to give them +1 WS, whereas MANz do not.
I think both have their uses, and a lot of what you do will depend on how the rest of your army will perform. 4 MANz are 160 points. Toss in a battlewagon ( RPJ, BS, Reinforced Ram, Grabba Klaw for plucking flyers out of the sky) and you're talking 270 points. I don't have the codex with me but I think that's the total point cost. In contrast that will get you something like 4 Nob Bikers without any Power Klaws or fun accessories. The bottom line here is that a usable squad of MANz will fit inside a larger force, whereas if you use Nob Bikers you will pretty much be dictating the rest of the army around them. It's neither a pro nor a con, just a difference that needs to be taken into account.
I believe the NOVA Open will go a long ways toward giving us a sense of what does and doesn't work with Orks (and many other armies). I'll be there as a scoring monkey and I'll be sure to keep an eye on what compositions do well.
what I meant was that by positioning him up front, and letting him "soak up" all the fire with his 2+/ FNP and taking the wounds when he does fail, as opposed to probably losing a nob or 2 per turn to small arms fire etc.
I run nob bikers and MANZ. MANZ have much more survivability from low str shots, but bikes are going to survive those S8 blasts/lascannons etc. They are just different units, I'm not going to argue which is better/has more utility but I think they each have their place, even alongside one another in the same list, possibly.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Kharrak wrote:Kustom Mega Blastas are AMAZING, and even more crucial considering the impending popularity of 2+ save units.
The issue isn't really with the weapon itself, it's more what you equip them to.
Kopta's are best with Rokkits, I can't deny. Kanz are the best platform, arguably, but with their quantity of 3 shots, Grotzookas and Rokkits likely suit them better.
Personally, (and unsurprisingly, since I seem to keep bringing them up... apologies ) Grot Tanks are the best platform. Tossing out 5 shots (if you get the kommanda upgrade) at bs3 is fantastic, and a notable upgrade to ap3 - I've always loved having them on the table. If they suffer the glancing hit from Gets Hot, they at least have the 5+ invul to attempt to negate it.
Also, better chance at killing yourself? Nonsense, you have an 8% chance of suffering a glance per shot - compared to a 30% chance to fry a Termie per shot.
grot tanks are FW correct? I nearly bought some last week to use as count as buggies because they are so  cool... but was unsure if I could run them as grot tanks in any tourneys... hell none of my friends even have FW models so feel like it wouldn't be fair there either!
42002
Post by: Kharrak
skyfi wrote:grot tanks are FW correct? I nearly bought some last week to use as count as buggies because they are so cool... but was unsure if I could run them as grot tanks in any tourneys... hell none of my friends even have FW models so feel like it wouldn't be fair there either!
Yup - thus my apologies for constantly bringing up a unit most will never even see
In my experience, rule of cool generally overules most things - they just look fantastic. All tourneys I've been in have happily allowed them, but I know there are one or two that have no FW models at all. They aren't overpowered at all - they offer the same weapons as kanz, are only AV10, and have unpredictable (and potentially lethal!) movement. Overall, it's their ability to provide quantity of shots for Kan weapons that makes them shine.
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Post by: mrfantastical
Kharrak wrote:Kustom Mega Blastas are AMAZING, and even more crucial considering the impending popularity of 2+ save units. That ap2 is really, really great for targeting tougher infantry. I've made Obliterators disintegrate, and dented Paladins more so than I've ever done with any other weapon and/or assault.
The issue isn't really with the weapon itself, it's more what you equip them to.
Kopta's are best with Rokkits, I can't deny. Kanz are the best codex platform, arguably, but with their quantity of 3 shots, Grotzookas and Rokkits likely suit them better.
Also, better chance at killing yourself? Nonsense, you have an 8% chance of suffering a glance per shot - compared to a 30% chance to fry a Termie per shot.
Personally, (and unsurprisingly, since I seem to keep bringing them up... apologies ) Grot Tanks are the best platform. Tossing out 5 shots (if you get the kommanda upgrade) at bs3 is fantastic, and a notable upgrade to ap3 - I've always loved having them on the table. If they suffer the glancing hit from Gets Hot, they at least have the 5+ invul to attempt to negate it.
Have you ever run into any issue playing with Grot Tanks? Just seems like when you bring up forgeworld anything to an opponent they act skiddish.
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Post by: Kharrak
mrfantastical wrote:Have you ever run into any issue playing with Grot Tanks? Just seems like when you bring up forgeworld anything to an opponent they act skiddish.
Once. Person said they were OP, because they popped his Rhinos and gibbed his two units of Oblits in a single salvo each.
This was, however, a player who, on his first turn, drove up two rhinos (filled with normal CSMs), and jumped two Daemon Princes right in front of my entire Ork army (within 12", can you believe it), left them there, and then accused me of having an OP army when I proceeded to table him by turn 3.
Past that, people have been far too charmed to complain
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Post by: skyfi
grot tanks are awfully charmin lil gits.
53504
Post by: Dribble Joy
skyfi wrote:MANZ have much more survivability from low str shots, but bikes are going to survive those S8 blasts/lascannons etc.
I'm not actually sure about the former... let's crunch some numbaz.
Str4 (very common in shooting and assault):
Chance of wounding a meganob = 0.5 x 0.166 = 0.083
Chance of wounding a biker nob (assuming FnP) = 0.333 x 0.5 x 0.666 = 0.111
Ah, you're right, though it's not that much (tested against just about all strengths, 2+ > 4+&5+). The constant cover save and FnP is better though. Meganobs can't run either, which leaves them high and dry if their transport gets nuked.
Meganobs can dish pain, but their need more support, which is of course where I am lacking in my army.
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Post by: skyfi
"much more" may be debatable lol!
but I think the 2+ comes out on top more often than not, and IF someone takes the mad doc in the mega nob squad... 2+/5++ ... just cant do anything tactical until the dok dies..
Orbital bombardments, vindicators etc I don't know str #'s off top of head but I fear these will insta gib MANZ, while bikers won't be insta killed, but will only have a 4+/5+ save and possibly only 5+ depending on if its an AP4 blast? Seems like against blasts like that unless they are ap2, manz will be in a good position as they are not relying on a 4+ cover save that can be denied.
Not knocking nob bikers, I have more of them than MANZ,
I just think they both serve very different roles.. I try to take my manz to enemy deployment and sit on obj till end of game getting linebreaker and +3 for obj, while bikers are free to grab another hard to reach one, lay down krumpin, or draw a god awful amount of fire.
MANZ aint ever gonna rush halfway across field and save the day, ever. but at the same time they can go to ground if hit by ap2, and if inside ruins thats a 3+ save and not so bad... Also have to keep your warboss or an HQ with them to keep them in line
nob bikers are great and all, but I worry how long they can obj camp if need be without dying/running. I feel like I get unlucky on my 4+/5+ rolling under a lot more often than failing my 2+ on manz. I guess it really matters how many go-to-ground-cover-denying ap2 large blasts one will face?
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Post by: TedNugent
Kharrak wrote:
Also, better chance at killing yourself? Nonsense, you have an 8% chance of suffering a glance per shot - compared to a 30% chance to fry a Termie per shot.
.16*.5=.08
.33*.83*.66=.18
.33*.83*.33=..09
Just as much chance to suffer a wound on a Deffkopta as you have to cause a wound to a TH/ SS Terminator.
8520
Post by: Leth
I was looking at big choppas as a cost vrs return situation. As well as the potential for turn two combats(or heavy forbid getting charged)
Giving up 1 attack to wound on twos for 5 points would be bad on models with fewer attacks, but having three as a default Against Marines. Also for 5 points you increase the range of results that hurt a vehicle by 2. So it decreases output by 25% but increases results by a much greater margin against vehicles.
Also IDing T3 with changes to FNP might be the difference between getting out of a mob of tyranids or not.
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Post by: Jag_Calle
MANz rokkits could actually be quite dangerous... Especially for their low points...
Add grotsnik in one, so you can buy cybork in the units you feel need it, and on the plus side, the dok might actually reach the unit he's chasing...
Like all manz rokkits, just drive as fast as possible towards your enemy, and hope the trukk's special damage table brings you (bouncing or not) even closer to the enemy when it's shot to pieces..
A question: what type of powerweapons do burnas count as in CC? What type does the warphead 1-3 count as?
Hoping not to jinx anything, but with the latest nerfs that headed our way (koptas, kommandos, trukkaboys etc) I wouldn't be surprised if they were faq:ed as axes, or anything that's ap4 or worse in CC...
//Calle
42002
Post by: Kharrak
TedNugent wrote:Kharrak wrote:
Also, better chance at killing yourself? Nonsense, you have an 8% chance of suffering a glance per shot - compared to a 30% chance to fry a Termie per shot.
.16*.5=.08
.33*.83*.66=.18
.33*.83*.33=..09
Just as much chance to suffer a wound on a Deffkopta as you have to cause a wound to a TH/ SS Terminator.
Ah, was the comparison for Deffkoptas explicitly? In this case, when a Deffkopta fires at a TH/ SS termie, yes, the chance of hurting (but not necessarily killing oneself) is just below killing the termie. One is falling into a trap here - why would one be firing ap weapons at TH/ SS termies? Boyz hapilly deal with them without much issue. That ap2 should be directed towards Oblitorators, 2+ save MC's, Paladins, etc.
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Post by: skyfi
Jag_Calle wrote:MANz rokkits could actually be quite dangerous... Especially for their low points...
Add grotsnik in one, so you can buy cybork in the units you feel need it, and on the plus side, the dok might actually reach the unit he's chasing...
Like all manz rokkits, just drive as fast as possible towards your enemy, and hope the trukk's special damage table brings you (bouncing or not) even closer to the enemy when it's shot to pieces..
A question: what type of powerweapons do burnas count as in CC? What type does the warphead 1-3 count as?
Hoping not to jinx anything, but with the latest nerfs that headed our way (koptas, kommandos, trukkaboys etc) I wouldn't be surprised if they were faq:ed as axes, or anything that's ap4 or worse in CC...
//Calle
yeah i haven't actually had the dok die yet in the 4-5 games I have brought him so far in 6th... unfortunately. I mean he's awesome and what not but I want him to protect the manz w/ fnp and allow them to cross board and then die about turn 4 and let them sit on an obj...
The only thing i dislike about MANZ rokkits is one time use only, hits on 5+, and not twin linked, and lose your TL shoota for it.. only metal manz locally were rokkits so thats all i have, had to kitbash kombiskorchas and magnetize them to switch between rokkits or skorchas.
I sure hope burna's are ap3...
I thought warphead ones were ap3 as well too? nothing to back this claim up though.
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Post by: UrgThraka
Something important that I just re-read that I thought I would share.
The d3 stormboyz lost to charging if you assault on the turn they deepstrike only happens if the charge is successful. I know I saw a post somewhere that some lost d3 boyz to the charge and failed to roll the needed charge distance.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
I can't believe that they removed the TL from dakka gunz. That is just sad.
unless their entry saying they are TL overrides the actual gun entry?
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Post by: skyfi
UrgThraka wrote:Something important that I just re-read that I thought I would share.
The d3 stormboyz lost to charging if you assault on the turn they deepstrike only happens if the charge is successful. I know I saw a post somewhere that some lost d3 boyz to the charge and failed to roll the needed charge distance.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
I can't believe that they removed the TL from dakka gunz. That is just sad.
unless their entry saying they are TL overrides the actual gun entry?
I was the guy losing d3 stormboys even when failing a charge out of deep strike. Thanks for letting me know this!!!!!
I believe dakkagun is still TL. I didn't think that changed
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Post by: Dr. What
What about Kanz kitted with KMBs? What is the consensus on them?
Are rokkits still better to give them?
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Post by: UrgThraka
Burnas fall under the "Unusual Power Weapons" category on pg.61 of the BRB.
"treat it as an AP3 melee weapon with the additional rules and characteristics presented in its entry."
meaning str 4 AP 3 attacks at init (which means less than it did but still).
54112
Post by: Dr. What
It now occurs to me that Kopta Rokkits are better than Kan Rokkits due to a cheaper unit + koptas can have bigger squads + koptas have a better movement range + koptas can outflank + koptas have 2 wounds and a save!
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Post by: Orkaswampa
Burna's will come under "Unusual Power Weapons" therefore are AP3 in addition to any other special rules they confer.
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Post by: Jag_Calle
Skyfi, by Manz rokkits, I meant 3 mega armoured nobs, in a trukk... Not necesarrily giving them kombirokkits...
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Post by: skyfi
Jag_Calle wrote:Skyfi, by Manz rokkits, I meant 3 mega armoured nobs, in a trukk... Not necesarrily giving them kombirokkits...
d'oh 
to think I refer to trukks as "fire and forget MANZ delivery systems" in my head, and not make that connection.
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Post by: Anvildude
They're usually known as MANz Missiles, not Rokkits, but yeah.
Also, I think Weirdboy Power Weapon profile would be based on the weapon the Weirdboy'z holding. Usually it'll be a Staff (meaning Power Maul/Staff) but as they're Orks, you could easily have a Weirdboy holding a giant copper axe, or Mesmer-floating a greatsword, I suppose.
About the Kombi-weapons, though... I had this one idea for Nobz (and I guess Meganobz too) that might be a lot more workable in this Edition. What about using Nobz as a more cheap, non-differentiated unit? My idea specifically was a mob of Nobz with Kombi-Skorchas being used as a mini Burnawagon, or ones with Kombi-Rokkits, or even basic TLShootas or the default combo. For the cost of 2 extra Boyz you get a boost in Strength, 2 more Attacks, better Initiative, better Leadership and maybe a Battlewagon dedicated Transport.
But yeah, what about a Nob squad where all the Nobz are exactly the same? (except maybe a Banner and a Painboy.)
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Post by: Dribble Joy
skyfi wrote:MANZ aint ever gonna rush halfway across field and save the day, ever. but at the same time they can go to ground if hit by ap2, and if inside ruins thats a 3+ save and not so bad... Also have to keep your warboss or an HQ with them to keep them in line
Area terrain is 5+, going to ground in area terrain is +2.
However, if you are in area terrain, but are behind a piece of ruins within it, then you have a 4+ cover, taken to 2+ because you're still in area terrain.
At least that's what my opponent was claiming in my last game. Feel free to disprove him though.
As for kombi-weapons, I feel the kombi-skorcha is becoming less of the no-brainer. as we will invariably be further away from our assault targets (and our assault targets being less dangerous to both biker and mega nobs), they now seem less potent. I'm seriously considering swapping the skorchas for rokkits on my meganobs to add a one-off salvo of anti-tank fire.
58553
Post by: skyfi
Dribble Joy wrote:skyfi wrote:MANZ aint ever gonna rush halfway across field and save the day, ever. but at the same time they can go to ground if hit by ap2, and if inside ruins thats a 3+ save and not so bad... Also have to keep your warboss or an HQ with them to keep them in line
Area terrain is 5+, going to ground in area terrain is +2.
However, if you are in area terrain, but are behind a piece of ruins within it, then you have a 4+ cover, taken to 2+ because you're still in area terrain.
At least that's what my opponent was claiming in my last game. Feel free to disprove him though.
As for kombi-weapons, I feel the kombi-skorcha is becoming less of the no-brainer. as we will invariably be further away from our assault targets (and our assault targets being less dangerous to both biker and mega nobs), they now seem less potent. I'm seriously considering swapping the skorchas for rokkits on my meganobs to add a one-off salvo of anti-tank fire.
i got nothin, to disprove him but have been playing area terrain as 5+, and the area terrain connected to a ruins as 4+ (i was under impression you treated the area ruins were attached to as ruins also?).. also thought going to ground only gave you +1 to cover, didn't realize it was +2 while in area terrain...
I only came back to 40k in last leg of 5th edition. I quit in the swing of 4 so i'm a bit rusty.
Thanks for the insight!
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Post by: Wolfnid420
You know there are a lot of orks out there when your thread is 31 pages where most others don't break 10 lol
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Post by: waaaaghboss
39309
Post by: Jidmah
Jag_Calle wrote:A question: what type of powerweapons do burnas count as in CC? What type does the warphead 1-3 count as?
Hoping not to jinx anything, but with the latest nerfs that headed our way (koptas, kommandos, trukkaboys etc) I wouldn't be surprised if they were faq:ed as axes, or anything that's ap4 or worse in CC...
Anvildude wrote:They're usually known as MANz Missiles, not Rokkits, but yeah.
Also, I think Weirdboy Power Weapon profile would be based on the weapon the Weirdboy'z holding. Usually it'll be a Staff (meaning Power Maul/Staff) but as they're Orks, you could easily have a Weirdboy holding a giant copper axe, or Mesmer-floating a greatsword, I suppose.
It's simple really. As soon as your weapon reads anything besides "This is a powerweapon", it's AP3, not strength bonus. The burnaz are flamers in addition to powerweapons, and the warphead has a whole page of rules attached to it.
As for zogwort, he still is S4 on the charge, so you'd even get to reroll the 2+ to-wound roll on his attacks against marines and weaker stuff. And yeah, his curse is what makes him so good. If he manages to squig even one enemy HQ, he has done his job well.
About the Kombi-weapons, though... I had this one idea for Nobz (and I guess Meganobz too) that might be a lot more workable in this Edition. What about using Nobz as a more cheap, non-differentiated unit? My idea specifically was a mob of Nobz with Kombi-Skorchas being used as a mini Burnawagon, or ones with Kombi-Rokkits, or even basic TLShootas or the default combo. For the cost of 2 extra Boyz you get a boost in Strength, 2 more Attacks, better Initiative, better Leadership and maybe a Battlewagon dedicated Transport.
By comparison, Nobz actually have worse leadership than boyz, as there usually are less of them. If have thought about 10 Nobz with TL-Shootaz though. They are basically slightly worse shoota boyz(two shots are always better than one twin-linked shot), but get to allocate half their wounds to whoever you want to die, since they are all characters. Sadly this clocks in at 280 points, which isn't exactly cheaper then choppy nobz or , shockingly, flash gits, and a lot more expensive than shoota boyz. Pretty much the same for all other variants. They are outdone by burnaz and tankbustaz in terms of damage done per points, even when ignoring that combi weapons can only be shot once.
But yeah, what about a Nob squad where all the Nobz are exactly the same? (except maybe a Banner and a Painboy.)
I wouldn't skip on two or three powerklaws - that's the only thing that give nobz an edge over boyz. I'd rather skip on the painboy if you don't plan on getting cybork.
Wolfnid420 wrote:You know there are a lot of orks out there when your thread is 31 pages where most others don't break 10 lol
Well, duh. Orkz iz best.
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Post by: Jag_Calle
I've been thinking anout what to do with my 3x12 kommando units alot lately.(at 2k points)
As I see it (given how fragile they now are, due to getting shot at when they charge) I have 6 choices:
A) Increasing their numbers to 15 each, and hope that's enugh.
B) running them as 4+bp nob with two rokkits, as a cheap distraction unit (outflank/infiltrate to a position of cover and take potshots at tanks)
C) running them as sluggaboys in trukks
D) running them as a big mob of sluggaboys, alongside my 2x25 units of shootaboys
E) running them as slugga boys (20 of 'em) in a BW, moving up alongside my borrowed Leman Russ Demolisher. (oi, it's been collecting dust since this codex came, as the looted wahon just never lived up to the hull)
F) as sluggaboys, in 3 killkannon BWs...
The rest of the list (that's decided thus far, is: warboss, kff bigmekk, 2x25 shootaboys, 5 rokkitkoptas, a kannon battery and a lobba battery (with maxed grots) as well as a detachement of IG (company command+autocannon and the ordnance dude, platoon command with autocannon, 2 squads with autocannons and my LR Demolisher. Considering getting Straken and some powerswords for the units, and using them as close protection detail for my kannons and lobbas). I have a lovely converted dread, but I think I'll shelf it along with the kans...
//Calle
PS. Has anyone considered using Zagstuk and da vulcha boys as a means if destroying enemy AA capabilities? Ie, dropping in, attacking the ADL turret and squad in CC? Now, they'll take some losses due to skyfire, and the rules that lets it fire when you arrive, but how many boys would you bring?
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Post by: Jidmah
Well, realistically the quad gun has only four shots, so it can't kill more than four storm boyz, plus it can't shoot if it intercepted. Zagstrukk seems to be great in general (weaker mishaps, better reserve roll on turn 2, potentially higher charge range), I haven't tried him yet though.
As for kommandoz... why not simply infiltrate them?
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Post by: Jag_Calle
I tried infiltrating them, but the few inches they gain by infiltrating, isn't worth the extra 4 pts per model, when they get slaughtered by defensive fire when they charge...
It'd be more efficent to run them as regular sluggaboys with an additional 8 boys, than the extra range, that and the fact that without outflank, they tend to be lone targets close to the enemy... with outflank, more threats are close to the enemy...meaning they don't get shot at as much, (or get shot to pieces, leaving another unit unschated).
How many vulcha boys (along with zagstukk) should be enugh to kill (in 2 CC phases) a unit of tac-marines assuming they def fire when you charge...(My Mathammer sucks...)
PS. Sorry 'bout the Manz "rokkit" misunderstanding, my mind has been set on orks for so long that I automaticly read and write rokkit when I see/think missile...
//Calle
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Post by: Jidmah
I would always deep strike da vulcha boyz as a full unit. You are losing 1-3 simply because of the rules, plus another 1-3 from overwatch. Then you get hammer of wrath hits (S3, but auto-hitting), some pistol shots and maybe a thrown a stikkbomb if your enemy is clumped. With Zagstrukk being a nob on steroids you should be able to finish off tac marines the turn you charge them.
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Post by: KingCracker
Jidmah wrote:Yup, and they still have crap LD and no boss pole. I own 30 deff koptaz and have tried about anything with them, including the "I'm crashing 30 ork koptaz into your baneblade"-formation.
They do awesome until your opponent finds out that a tank shock will make them fall back 3d6 roughly 40% of the time. And then there's all those new ld-based curses from the psychic tables. At least they can't get pinned anymore.
Since 6th, Ive been running 5 stock w/1 buzzsaw along with a bikerboss w/bosspole. It has been working really well so far. Its a powerful combo, they are REALLY fast, all those str5 TL shots just tear up units, EVEN MEQs and then they crash into assault and tear whats left right up.
I personally rarely used koptas in 5th, and rokkit buggies simply were better hands down. In 6th though? Yea, I havnt touched my buggies, infact I turned a couple back into koptas
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Post by: Gylen
KingCracker wrote:Jidmah wrote:Yup, and they still have crap LD and no boss pole. I own 30 deff koptaz and have tried about anything with them, including the "I'm crashing 30 ork koptaz into your baneblade"-formation.
They do awesome until your opponent finds out that a tank shock will make them fall back 3d6 roughly 40% of the time. And then there's all those new ld-based curses from the psychic tables. At least they can't get pinned anymore.
Since 6th, Ive been running 5 stock w/1 buzzsaw along with a bikerboss w/bosspole. It has been working really well so far. Its a powerful combo, they are REALLY fast, all those str5 TL shots just tear up units, EVEN MEQs and then they crash into assault and tear whats left right up.
I personally rarely used koptas in 5th, and rokkit buggies simply were better hands down. In 6th though? Yea, I havnt touched my buggies, infact I turned a couple back into koptas
Maybe you can clear this up for me. How exactly are Koptas better than Warbuggies in 6th? I would have thought in 5th they were better, but now I can't see why.
In 5th, at least you could scout really far (turbo-boost) into your enemy's deployment then possibly get some rear armor shots / 1st round assaults.
In 6th, your scout movement is only 12" is it not? Since turbo-boosting happens in the shooting phase.
Koptas still suffer from the same problems as they did in 5th. Low leadership and has wounds. Wouldn't a Warbuggy just be a cheaper, better version? Especially for 6th?
I'm still investigating which is better and would like some clarification on your statement, but so far, it seems like Warbuggies are best.
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Post by: Jag_Calle
T5, 4+/4++/5++ save and two wounds, actually make them harder to kill than the 2 hitpoint buggy...
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Post by: Gylen
I suppose, but losing just one in a squad less than 5 is risky because of such low leadership... no?
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Post by: skyfi
Can you actually attack the emplaced gun with the ADL? as if it were t7 like other artillery??
I played against a friend (who is new and unfortunately I am trying to show the ropes, ruh roh.) who plays necron and he took the ADL/quad gun. Didn't know it could intercept shot stormboys, woops that woulda helped him! stormboys were able to kill warriors off of gun emplacement. surfboard lord carved on over to save the day and retake the gun before manz showed up.
I don't know if it woulda made a game changing difference, but maybe!!
on the low LD from kopters vs no LD for buggies... its a risk/reward thing... kopters live longer due to saves/cyborakability/wounds, buggies die faster to glances when they can't find cover. only difference past that would be, kopters will potentially run after 1 casualty usually, while buggies never do... So if you can afford 5 kopters where 2 have to die for a LD check, woop woop. but if you can't fit them in, may be better off with buggies is what im getting?
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Post by: Anvildude
Jidmah wrote:
It's simple really. As soon as your weapon reads anything besides "This is a powerweapon", it's AP3, not strength bonus. The burnaz are flamers in addition to powerweapons, and the warphead has a whole page of rules attached to it.
As for zogwort, he still is S4 on the charge, so you'd even get to reroll the 2+ to-wound roll on his attacks against marines and weaker stuff. And yeah, his curse is what makes him so good. If he manages to squig even one enemy HQ, he has done his job well.
Anvildude wrote:
... What about using Nobz as a more cheap, non-differentiated unit? My idea specifically was a mob of Nobz with Kombi-Skorchas being used as a mini Burnawagon, or ones with Kombi-Rokkits, or even basic TLShootas or the default combo. For the cost of 2 extra Boyz you get a boost in Strength, 2 more Attacks, better Initiative, better Leadership and maybe a Battlewagon dedicated Transport.
By comparison, Nobz actually have worse leadership than boyz, as there usually are less of them. If have thought about 10 Nobz with TL-Shootaz though. They are basically slightly worse shoota boyz(two shots are always better than one twin-linked shot), but get to allocate half their wounds to whoever you want to die, since they are all characters. Sadly this clocks in at 280 points, which isn't exactly cheaper then choppy nobz or , shockingly, flash gits, and a lot more expensive than shoota boyz. Pretty much the same for all other variants. They are outdone by burnaz and tankbustaz in terms of damage done per points, even when ignoring that combi weapons can only be shot once.
Little correction: They're Twin Linked Shootas, not Sluggas. That's 2 twin linked shots per.
Also, I don't think the Weirdboy actually has any additional Rules for their Weapon. It's just "If they roll this, then they have Powerweapons for the turn."
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Post by: Jidmah
I'm aware of this.
You get twice as many shots from shootaz in a battlewagon. So you have two shootas for every twin-linked shoota. I should have clarified.
You have to take a psychic test, roll a 1-3 and be locked in combat in oder to get the powerweapon. If that's not unique, I don't know what is.
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Post by: Jag_Calle
Jidmah wrote:I would always deep strike da vulcha boyz as a full unit. You are losing 1-3 simply because of the rules, plus another 1-3 from overwatch. Then you get hammer of wrath hits (S3, but auto-hitting), some pistol shots and maybe a thrown a stikkbomb if your enemy is clumped. With Zagstrukk being a nob on steroids you should be able to finish off tac marines the turn you charge them.
Hmm, that's ALOT of points to shift a tac-squad.... Nearly 300 I think (counting from memory)...
Isn't that a tad overkill? Though a tac-squad + ADL +quadgun would be 260ish come go think of it..
Do you think one could get away with 11 stormboys plus Zagstuk?
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Post by: Orkaswampa
Assuming 2 models died from deep striking, the Vulcha Squad would kill 10.3 marines on average if it shot all slugga's, and assaulted a marine squad with 18 stormboyz + zagstruk. In total you're looking at 4 ork casualties due to superior initiative, so around 7 marines would die on average, meaning the squad will 9 times out of 10 kill the marine squad on the second assault phase, unless its a squad of berzerkers or blood claws in which you shouldn't have charged in first place However for a 325 point squad i dont think that justifies points cost much
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Post by: tgf
why not charge bloodclaws? They suck if they get charged.
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Post by: Orkaswampa
They will whittle the stormboyz squad to the point it becomes 9 boyz and a super nob compared to normal marine squads:
10 Blood Claws = 20 Attacks (1 base, 1 for CC weapon) i think, which will kill 4.1 boyz, so you're looking at attacking with 14 boyz, and thats not say there isnt some wolf guard pimp in there with terminator armour, because he wont play nice. If they get their counter attack they are killing 6.24 boyz. So 12 in phase one, say you kill 4, your squad will be too small to to anything in their next turn after the combat, making blood claws something that will take you down with them
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Post by: Jag_Calle
So, the general consensus would be that stormboys with Zagstuck isn't worth the point-cost?
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Post by: skyfi
Jag_Calle wrote:So, the general consensus would be that stormboys with Zagstuck isn't worth the point-cost?
I have run him three times, once in a 2500 point game and he had 15 vulchas with him all of which were cyborked.
cybork game @ 2.5k:
They deepstruck landed, failed charge (took 2 casualties derp), got shot to bits, charged some reapers, ate some bullets, lost combat (and zag got ganked by eldrad in a challenge...), and were swept
game 2 was only 1100 points vs vanilla marines
they deepstruck near 2 combat squads, wiped one, moved onto other (was stuck in middle of shooting of 2nd & 3rd combat squads/razorback/captain for a turn) and eventually wiped it with a single boy left, who went on to get shot to death by some lone marine hangin around an obj.
game 3 1100 points vs necrons
8 warriors in ruins behind ADL w/ quad gun, deepstruck in front of them, charged, won combat after a round or 2, consolidated into ruins then get charged by surfboard lord who finishes the last 7-8 + zag off, while only taking a single wound from atop his CCB... 2+...
neither of 1100 point games were stormboys cyborked...
Gotta say they are very situational... they can provide great shocktroops and a nearly guaranteed turn 2 assault from a surprise force... but a very pricey investment for access to that tactical tool... I try to aim my stormboys at a similiar target (or close to) where my manz missile is headed... that way whatever it is I'm trying to get MANZ to, will be locked in combat / rushing to save the unit stormboys assaulted and be ready for a krumpin 
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Post by: Orkaswampa
Stormboys are very killy, but cannot make up their points cost against most armies frankly :( useful in apocalypse for a distraction and thats about all i would field them as
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Post by: Dribble Joy
Orkaswampa wrote:cannot make up their points cost against most armies frankly
Does a unit have to be able to do this in order to be a useful inclusion to a list? Not killing a single model before dying is fine if it means the rest/important part of your force goes unmolested. Same with kommandos; infiltrate them and force them to to be dealt with or outflank and keep your enemy on the look-out on his flanks.
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Post by: Anvildude
Actually, using that min-squad of 'mandoes with Rokkits could be useful- outflank them, and you can get some rear or side armour shots at things you otherwise mightnt.
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Post by: Orkaswampa
@Dribble Boy, for 325 points it does! Thats like 20 - 30% of a standard sized list, when there's plenty of other, cheaper alternatives to it
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Post by: Dr. What
Anvildude wrote:Actually, using that min-squad of 'mandoes with Rokkits could be useful- outflank them, and you can get some rear or side armour shots at things you otherwise mightnt.
Sadly, a minimal squad of Kommandos costs 50 points. Then you've got 20 points on top of that for 2 rokkits. That's 70 points and you aren't guarenteed you'll even hit something, let alone pen or glance.
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Post by: Jag_Calle
And for those points, you can get two rokkit koptas, which can outflank aswell, and are twinlinked to top it off...
//Calle
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Post by: moreorlessrelevant
5 kommandos w/ 2 rokkits is 70 pts, Might be worth it as a nuisance. Two rokkitkopters is only 20 pts more however.
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Post by: Dribble Joy
I've been thinking about how to improve my DeffWing, especially after my last game. As mentioned I would rather stick to mega armour and wagons (which obviously restricts things a bit), but how does this look?
HQ:
WB
CB, MA, BP, AS
130
WB
CB, MA, BP, AS
130
Troops:
Meganobs x 5
3 Kombi-rokkits
215
Wagon with 4 BS, RPJ, Ram, Riggers, Armour.
135
Meganobs x 5
3 Kombi-rokkits
215
Wagon with 4 BS, RPJ, Ram, Riggers, Armour.
135
Elites:
Meganobs x 6
2 Kombi-rokkits
250
Wagon with 4 BS, RPJ, Ram, Riggers, Armour.
135
Heavy Support:
Wagon with 4 RLs, Kannon, AC
155
1500
Foregone the skorchas for a bunch of rokkits. Given the likely proximity of units and inability to overwatch, I think that skorchas on meganobs is less viable than it used to be (as casualties are taken from the front and charge ranges are higher), so some anti-tank volleys are probably more effective. I have enough anti-infantry capacity (big shootas, TL-shootas and PKs), so I might revert to the 4RL wagon I used to run before IA:8 came out.
Should I collate the rokkits into one or two of the mobs? A couple in each mob might be a bit lacking, but I don't want to leave any mob without the flexibility to deal with armour.
Maybe drop a meganob from the Elites unit for another eight rokkits?
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Post by: Madmax1
Well....I'm I'm adding this up right, you'll have 18 models and 4 Battlewagons. I'm sure it would be a fun army to play, but I wouldn't expect to win very often with it. Not only do you have a painfully low model count, which means every casualty you take will be huge, but in my opinion, you also don't have nearly enough shooting. You've only got 18 shootas, and 12 Big Shootas from the Battlewagons. You have a lot of Kombi-Rokkit Launchas, but you can only use those once per game. Honestly, in 6th, which seems to be a very shooty rulebook, that doesn't seem like nearly enough dakka. For orks it's about volume of fire. I know this is a fluffy list, and I can totally respect that. But, unless everyone else is playing a severly sub-par list, I can't see how this will be very successful.
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Post by: Dr. What
It looks fluffy, but my major thought is that any small SM force can field more than enough lascannons and plasma guns to rip this list apart.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I've never run a list of this type, but I'm curious because I really want to run one now.
Is a Warboss on bike + Nob Bikers + Wazdakka + Bikers viable? What about with koptas/fliers thrown in?
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Post by: Orkaswampa
This list will get mullered by guard, 3 chimeras with plasma vets will see half your army gone in second turn
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Post by: matphat
It kind of sucks that Orks rely so heavily on horde builds to perform well, but that's really just the nature of the army.
You need redundancy, volume of fire, (and a little speed doesn't hurt) to really make the Orks shine.
I'm with you though. Running a list like that is exciting. Sadly, it wont do well against a ton of builds.
=(
*****
Also, played a couple of Nob mobz last night against BA. People may be screaming "NERF"" to the old wound allocation exploits, but to be honest, a Mob of Nobz, with a few PKs, 'eavy armor, Waaagh banna, painboy, and Warboss attached is just absolutely a BLAST.
Look out Sir, is just a half a notch under what Complex wounds used to be. They were unstoppable.
Love it.
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Post by: Zog Off
matphat wrote:It kind of sucks that Orks rely so heavily on horde builds to perform well, but that's really just the nature of the army.
You need redundancy, volume of fire, (and a little speed doesn't hurt) to really make the Orks shine.
I'm with you though. Running a list like that is exciting. Sadly, it wont do well against a ton of builds.
=(
*****
Also, played a couple of Nob mobz last night against BA. People may be screaming "NERF"" to the old wound allocation exploits, but to be honest, a Mob of Nobz, with a few PKs, 'eavy armor, Waaagh banna, painboy, and Warboss attached is just absolutely a BLAST.
Look out Sir, is just a half a notch under what Complex wounds used to be. They were unstoppable.
Love it.
What was the make-up of your mobs of Nobz? Did you maximize them, or did you keep them around 7 or 8? How many PK's? Did you put a PK, Bosspole, and Waaagh! Banner on one Nob since we don't have to diversify anymore? Or do you think it's still better to spread the gear out? Questions!!!
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Post by: Orkaswampa
My personal best experiences have been with this config, first they're wagon was destroyed, then they had a warlock squad with a farseer and destructors shoot them to death, and a harlequin squad, then were charged by both. The result of that turn = 3 Wounds on the squad, dead harlequin squad, dead farseer (big choppa instant deathed his face), and fleeing warlocks 
3x PK Nobz
6x BC Nobz
Basic Nob /w WB
Painboy
Cybork on all models
The big choppas and the basic/painboy generally kill half a unit each (3s to hit and 2 or 3 to wound is good), then the PKs obliterate whats left, and it isnt insane points for a nob squad. Bear in mind this squad doesnt have eavy armour so it needs a bwagon escort
Attaching a warboss guarantees whatever squad is assualted by this nob setup will die. 9.8/10 has this been the case for me
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Post by: matphat
Zog Off wrote:matphat wrote:It kind of sucks that Orks rely so heavily on horde builds to perform well, but that's really just the nature of the army.
You need redundancy, volume of fire, (and a little speed doesn't hurt) to really make the Orks shine.
I'm with you though. Running a list like that is exciting. Sadly, it wont do well against a ton of builds.
=(
*****
Also, played a couple of Nob mobz last night against BA. People may be screaming "NERF"" to the old wound allocation exploits, but to be honest, a Mob of Nobz, with a few PKs, 'eavy armor, Waaagh banna, painboy, and Warboss attached is just absolutely a BLAST.
Look out Sir, is just a half a notch under what Complex wounds used to be. They were unstoppable.
Love it.
What was the make-up of your mobs of Nobz? Did you maximize them, or did you keep them around 7 or 8? How many PK's? Did you put a PK, Bosspole, and Waaagh! Banner on one Nob since we don't have to diversify anymore? Or do you think it's still better to spread the gear out? Questions!!!
Mine was 5x Nobz with painboy, 2xPK, Waaagh Banna, Big Choppa, 'Eavy armor, Cybork + Warboss with PK, Cybork, BP.
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Post by: Tactica
I have a 1500pt 'welcome to 6th' tourny coming up locally. I've been looking at Blood Angles, IG, Tau and Orks. I was leaning towards a Blood / IG due to Flyers, psykers and fear of 2+ armored character challenges, Mindshackle Scarabs, rerolling 2+ armor saves... Not sure what to expect in the meta game as there are just so many combos... For Orks, I toyed around with this list last night, but really still seems like it has too many weaknesses.
HQ:
(1) Warboss - PK, Warbike
(1) Warboss - PK, Warbike
Elites:
(10) Lootas
Troops:
(5) Nob Bikers - Painboy, 2x PKs, Waaagh! Banner, Bosspole
(6) Mega Armor Nobz - 4 combi-rokkit, 2 combi-flamer
[Option - Can swap the MANz for second 5-man Nobz on bikes, but then both Nobz on bike squads get 1 Klaw only.]
(17) Shoota Boyz - 1x Rokkit, Nob w/ PK, Bosspole
(16) Shoota Boyz - 1x Rokkit, Nob w/ PK, Bosspole
Fast Attack:
(1) Dakkajet - Supa-Shoota, Fighta Ace
This list worries me due to it's relative lack of anti-air. It's anti-vehicle relies on combat, and its harder to get to grips. I like that it only has 8 kill points, but looking at all of the shots that a well built DE army can toll out at this range worries me. The general lack of protection for the boyz and the reliance on the nobz at small unit counts seems like all kinds of risky. The Dakkajet doesn't have a backup either, so I see many problems here...
Thoughts? Should I scrap the idea for orks at 1500 in tourny?
Cheers,
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Post by: matphat
No way. 1500 pts for Orks is a great point level. I'd suggest walking away from dual death stars at 1500 though. It really limits your flexibility.
If you want to build an all comers list for Orks at 1500, you're gonna have to base your army around boyz primarily, and then work out from there.
Start thinking in terms of flexability and roles. Boyz, Lootas, BWs, Etc...
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Post by: Bacms
Tactica wrote:I have a 1500pt 'welcome to 6th' tourny coming up locally. I've been looking at Blood Angles, IG, Tau and Orks. I was leaning towards a Blood / IG due to Flyers, psykers and fear of 2+ armored character challenges, Mindshackle Scarabs, rerolling 2+ armor saves... Not sure what to expect in the meta game as there are just so many combos... For Orks, I toyed around with this list last night, but really still seems like it has too many weaknesses.
HQ:
(1) Warboss - PK, Warbike
(1) Warboss - PK, Warbike
Elites:
(10) Lootas
Troops:
(5) Nob Bikers - Painboy, 2x PKs, Waaagh! Banner, Bosspole
(6) Mega Armor Nobz - 4 combi-rokkit, 2 combi-flamer
[Option - Can swap the MANz for second 5-man Nobz on bikes, but then both Nobz on bike squads get 1 Klaw only.]
(17) Shoota Boyz - 1x Rokkit, Nob w/ PK, Bosspole
(16) Shoota Boyz - 1x Rokkit, Nob w/ PK, Bosspole
Fast Attack:
(1) Dakkajet - Supa-Shoota, Fighta Ace
This list worries me due to it's relative lack of anti-air. It's anti-vehicle relies on combat, and its harder to get to grips. I like that it only has 8 kill points, but looking at all of the shots that a well built DE army can toll out at this range worries me. The general lack of protection for the boyz and the reliance on the nobz at small unit counts seems like all kinds of risky. The Dakkajet doesn't have a backup either, so I see many problems here...
Thoughts? Should I scrap the idea for orks at 1500 in tourny?
Cheers,
Main problem I see or I might be looking to it wrong is you are trying to footslog the boyz and the MAN I would try to give them BW so they can gain speed and would take at leas with big mek with KFF
60134
Post by: Hetelic
Dribble Joy wrote:Orkaswampa wrote:cannot make up their points cost against most armies frankly
Does a unit have to be able to do this in order to be a useful inclusion to a list? Not killing a single model before dying is fine if it means the rest/important part of your force goes unmolested. Same with kommandos; infiltrate them and force them to to be dealt with or outflank and keep your enemy on the look-out on his flanks.
Surely deffkopta's with the new jetbike rules are far superior for their points?
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Post by: matphat
What new rules would make them that much better?
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Post by: Dribble Joy
matphat wrote:I'd suggest walking away from dual death stars at 1500 though. It really limits your flexibility.
Absolutely, you simply can't get enough support until you hit 1850+.
Also, as mentioned, do not footslog meganobs. As they can no longer run, they are even more dependant on transports than ever.
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Post by: UrgThraka
sorry for the newbie question but... What is a deathstar?
54112
Post by: Dr. What
UrgThraka wrote:sorry for the newbie question but... What is a deathstar?
Well, it's a powerful (and usually VERY expensive) unit that is capable of being massively destructive (i.e. Nob Bikers, Meganobs, Paladins + Draigo).
Think of it like the Deathstar from Star Wars (origin of the term).
43132
Post by: Big Mek Wurrzog
Just finished playing 2 very small point games Dakka Orks vs Dakka Eldar vs Speed Freak Orkz vs Melee Nids. The battles were 550 pts and then 500 but this is for our escalation league, I must say I am impressed by nob biker + warboss combos for sure but they seem to really shine best at higher point gatherings. Meanwhile Dakka orks seem to be a very potent combination at almost any/all points, for the record our kannons are Badass now for the points here is what I ran. Please keep in mind these were escalation league games the requirements were only 1 HQ and 1 troop, i exceeded these requirements but the list wouldn't be considered legal in a standar game.
550 Pts - Dakka Orks Roster
HQ: Big Mek (1#, 103 pts)
1 Big Mek, 103 pts ('Eavy Armour; Ammo Runt; Shokk Attack Gun)
Troops: Boyz (30#, 215 pts)
29 Boyz, 215 pts (Big Shoota x2)
1 Boyz Nob ('Eavy Armour; Bosspole; Big Shoota)
Elite: Lootas (10#, 150 pts)
10 Lootas, 150 pts
Heavy Support: Big Gunz (13#, 81 pts)
3 Big Gunz, 81 pts (Ammo Runt x3; Additional Gun Krew)
10 Gretchin
Total Roster Cost: 549
So i fought a farseer with doom and the new divination prefered spell, eldar rangers, a wraithlord, and 2 units of guardians with scatter laser cannons. I ended up victorous over my enemy 5 vp to 3 in the Big Guns never tire mission. Things of note, his snipers removed my big shootas leaving me with only one very lucky nob as a special weapon in my 30 boyz unit. The Lootas did well but our mission was nightfight so the enemy was able to take advantage of it (but not as much as me ;-P) ultimately they wasted alot of gunfire trying to deal with the still broken statline of a Wraith lord. My Big Mek though and his kannon line were the victors of the match wiping the wraithlord off the map after 2 rounds of shooting and then wiping up the rest of the army near the end.
Most major loss i suffered was at the hand of 2 wraithlord flamers on my boyz squad. Luckily his flamers did more damage than good, he killed 12 orks in just one shooting phase while the boyz were doomed, this ruined his possibility of charging them afterword which he then regretted as I fired another barrage of kannons his way. ultimately my kannons emerged with only a single dead grot which was redirected from my bigmek due to snipers. I highly advise cheap Big Gunz walls now!
39309
Post by: Jidmah
Orkaswampa wrote:My personal best experiences have been with this config, first they're wagon was destroyed, then they had a warlock squad with a farseer and destructors shoot them to death, and a harlequin squad, then were charged by both. The result of that turn = 3 Wounds on the squad, dead harlequin squad, dead farseer (big choppa instant deathed his face), and fleeing warlocks
3x PK Nobz
6x BC Nobz
Basic Nob /w WB
Painboy
Cybork on all models
The big choppas and the basic/painboy generally kill half a unit each (3s to hit and 2 or 3 to wound is good), then the PKs obliterate whats left, and it isnt insane points for a nob squad. Bear in mind this squad doesnt have eavy armour so it needs a bwagon escort
Attaching a warboss guarantees whatever squad is assualted by this nob setup will die. 9.8/10 has this been the case for me
What do you think about simply dropping all the big choppas for an extra attack? Every since vehicles became so easy to hit, while also losing +1I, I really don't see the point in that +2 str any more.
Dr. What wrote:UrgThraka wrote:sorry for the newbie question but... What is a deathstar?
Well, it's a powerful (and usually VERY expensive) unit that is capable of being massively destructive (i.e. Nob Bikers, Meganobs, Paladins + Draigo).
Think of it like the Deathstar from Star Wars (origin of the term).
They also tend to be a single point of failure, which means that you can lose a lot of points at once if an (un)lucky roll removes them from the battle. If 10 paladins get tank-shocked and run off the table, that's pretty much as likely as some jedi boy hitting your air vent.
39309
Post by: Jidmah
TedNugent wrote:Maybe worth noting that a Painboy wounds on 4+
edit: as for killing vehicles with strength 5:
Keep in mind that poison even gets rerolls against most opponents, unless you are charging big MCs.
37480
Post by: matphat
Played a list last night against BA that ran both a Deffkopta squad with attached Biker Boss, and a Biker Nob squad. I wanted to see how the two fared and have a direct comparison during a single game.
Happy to report that they both did very well. I miss having the Green Baron doing his thing, but Koptas over all are looking pretty good. The Nobs are still far and above performing better. At least for me. I'm totally in love with Nob bikers now. They really are amazingly flexible in all respects.
Question:
Do Koptas confer the scout USR to any IC attached to them?
52054
Post by: MrMoustaffa
So i keep noticing people are giving their nobs a big shoota in boyz mobs. How are you doing this, because I havent seen anywhere in the codex that allows them to take one. I thought they had to be on a seperate boy from the nob.
43836
Post by: Bacms
MrMoustaffa wrote:So i keep noticing people are giving their nobs a big shoota in boyz mobs. How are you doing this, because I havent seen anywhere in the codex that allows them to take one. I thought they had to be on a seperate boy from the nob.
Read the codex again. It says for every 10 orks you can upgrade one to a big shoota. Nob is still an ork so he can do it
37480
Post by: matphat
MrMoustaffa wrote:So i keep noticing people are giving their nobs a big shoota in boyz mobs. How are you doing this, because I havent seen anywhere in the codex that allows them to take one. I thought they had to be on a seperate boy from the nob.
1.) Buy ten boyz
2.) Buy a Big Shoota
3.) Upgrade the Big Shoota Boy to a Nob???
4.) Profit!
46566
Post by: Beer4TheBeerGod
I'm not sure this is still a good idea under 6th though. In previous editions where you couldn't target individual models it made a lot of sense to consolidate everything onto a Nob. But under the new rules I would worry about losing that Nob to a challenge or something else, and subsequently losing that big shoota.
What do you guys think? Is it better to give the boss his big gun (obviously it's more fluffy), or is spreading out the toys the best way to do things now?
37480
Post by: matphat
Pro:
Nob can precision fire the Str5 Big Shoota and possibly snipe other characters and ICs. Giving him a slightly better chance of doing so, than with a regular shoota.
Con: Nob can be challenged.
46786
Post by: Capt. Camping
Actually GW has the miniature the nob with Power Klaw and big shoota.
37700
Post by: Ascalam
Yup. He's in the conversions section of the Ork dex.
I prefer to leave mine on boyz though, mainly for modelling reasons. My Nobz tend to be swinging something large and two-handedly brutal, or Powerklawing some poor sod to death.
54112
Post by: Dr. What
Now, I'm curious as to other peoples thoughts.
I've run Battlewagon Rushes before. I love them, but there's always a problem.
You've got 3-4 high priority targets that most armies have at least 1 answer to. Battlewagons die, and hopes of victory tend to die with them.
Are they just too fragile to actually compete?
37700
Post by: Ascalam
KFF helps, though not as much as before.
You could scrable their priorities but adding a fast, damaging unit or two that they can't ignore, to harrass them as your BW move up.
It also depends on your usual enemies, and how much terrain is usual at your FLGS.
Mine runs a decent amount of big terrain, and a LOS blocked wagon is a survivable one, at least from that shooter.
53708
Post by: TedNugent
Jidmah wrote:TedNugent wrote:Maybe worth noting that a Painboy wounds on 4+
edit: as for killing vehicles with strength 5:
Keep in mind that poison even gets rerolls against most opponents, unless you are charging big MCs.
Does Furious Charge affect that?
46566
Post by: Beer4TheBeerGod
Dr. What wrote:Now, I'm curious as to other peoples thoughts.
I've run Battlewagon Rushes before. I love them, but there's always a problem.
You've got 3-4 high priority targets that most armies have at least 1 answer to. Battlewagons die, and hopes of victory tend to die with them.
Are they just too fragile to actually compete?
They're too fragile to survive more than two turns, but to compete? That's 3-4 AV 14 vehicles that the enemy has to take down, and even with the increased vulnerability that vehicles experience in 6th that's a fairly tall order. Plus your threat range has increased since you can now move 19" in a single turn. Over two turns that means you are guaranteed to charge anything within 34" (T1: 13" Move, 6" Flat Out. T2: 7" Move, 6" Disembark, 2" Min Charge). On average you can charge anything within 39", especially if you also declare your WAAAGH! for that fleet of foot reroll.
The goal here is target saturation. Sure most enemies can handle a tank or two. But four? In one turn? That's a pretty tall order. It gets even worse if you incorporate a KFF and possibly some ally shenanigans like take a Necron with a solar pulse ( KFF + Night Fight = 4+ or 3+ cover save). That can easily double the number of shots required to down your wagons, which means that twice as many are going to survive. So long as your list has the appropriate redundancy you should be able to weather the storm of gunfire and unload 60 boyz into your enemy's lines in no time.
I like to combine a battlewagon brigade with some superior firepower, ideally in the form of 5 man loota squads. I've also heard good things about incorporating dakkajets for added mobility. With a warboss and nob or meganob squad you can get four battlewagons on the field and charging at the enemy. What's not to like?
53504
Post by: Dribble Joy
Indeed, a single wagon will be popped in short order, but 4 poses a much bigger threat.
46786
Post by: Capt. Camping
I put a KFF Mek inside a wagon and in the shooting fase I was able to restore a hull point. You can include a loota unit with a mek and repair the wagon. I know about point wise, but you can include 3 meks inside the lootas. I know is expensive.
47616
Post by: Orkaswampa
Why not stick 15 burna's with 3 meks inside? ;p Make it bristle with guns, and just move 6inches a turn firing everything, as it will be near the back, guarding the flank, anything that goes near is getting its face burnt off.
46786
Post by: Capt. Camping
Orkaswampa wrote:Why not stick 15 burna's with 3 meks inside? ;p Make it bristle with guns, and just move 6inches a turn firing everything, as it will be near the back, guarding the flank, anything that goes near is getting its face burnt off.
That too.
8520
Post by: Leth
I want to run a wazdakka list and one of the problems I am having is overcoming the leadership problem. It is hard to get them to fearless size without limiting them too much. Ideal sized units are to easy to scare off the board. I was wondering what you all think of a unit of three with nob and big choppa?
For 90 points you have a scoring 4 wound T5 unit with a 4+ persistent cover save and a decent gun that is also very fast. Also the nob is a legitimate threat to vehicles in CC with a strength 7 on the charge. I am a really big fan of big choppas. I could bump them up to 5 and make it so they must take two casualties to test but not sure.
54112
Post by: Dr. What
Leth wrote:I want to run a wazdakka list and one of the problems I am having is overcoming the leadership problem. It is hard to get them to fearless size without limiting them too much. Ideal sized units are to easy to scare off the board. I was wondering what you all think of a unit of three with nob and big choppa?
For 90 points you have a scoring 4 wound T5 unit with a 4+ persistent cover save and a decent gun that is also very fast. Also the nob is a legitimate threat to vehicles in CC with a strength 7 on the charge. I am a really big fan of big choppas. I could bump them up to 5 and make it so they must take two casualties to test but not sure.
are you going to do 6 mobs of 3? That could work, because the FAQ says bosspole/WAAAGH! wounds are allowed to be saved.
Otherwise, 3 mobs of 6-7 would be good too.
Add in some Stormboyz, Deffkoptas, and maybe a flier and you'll have a fast and fun list to run!
21217
Post by: Jag_Calle
Just of the top of my head now, haven't sat down to do the calculations, so I might be a bit off the mark..
2k points, extra FOC.
An army with 3 BWs with the killkannon(or is it boomgun on the bw), 12 sluggaboys in each.
2 large mobs of shootaboys, one with the warboss, the other with a kff mek, keeping all BWs under kff, and the BWs hopefully blocking LOS to the shootas.
1-2 allied Leman russ demolisher flanking the BWs, towards the middle of the deployment, to present it's higher side armour at any enemy trying to get shots angled at the column.
2-3 dakkajets as airsupport.
ADL with quad gun, housing a kannon unit, lobba unit and a CCS, with master of ordnance, PCS, and 2 guardsmen units.
Plan is to drive the armored column, shielding the infantry up to 18-24" of the enemy, separating the BWs at ladt movement to allow the shootaboys through, and discorging sluggaboys to help mop up any resistance, that the 4-5 ornance shots, orbital bombardment, lobba barrage and 100-120 shoota shots fail to kill. Jets and quadgun to keep the skies clear, and finally the big gunz and master of ordnance to provide support, whilst being relatively protected by 20-25 guardsmen kept safe by the ADL.
Sprinkle with rokkitkoptas for any leftover points.
Do you think it's plausible, and what should I equip the PCS and 2 guardsmen units with? I figured the 25 lasguns ordered to first rank, second rank fire order should put a dent into anyone drop-podding/deep striking to get at the master of ordnance, lobbas/kannons and quadgun might be a good start..
Thoughts?
//Calle
42002
Post by: Kharrak
Right, so my first two games of 6th today... (as Orks).
Some points:
*Battlewagons with Burnas inside them are fantastic.
*Battlewagons with burnas / Lootas inside them, two to three of whom are meks, makes it VERY hard to kill. I brought up my battlewagon from 1 hull point back to 3 hull points twice.
*KFF is not nearly as reliable, but it's still very, very useful.
*Removing casualties from the front is fantastic if playing defensively. I was able to keep two units of 40 shoota boys from assaulting me - eventually vaporising the one, and forcing the other to flee off the table.
*Snap Fire is so beautiful for Orks, particularly for Battlewagons, as well as those inside them. Having four Big Shootas is actually something one can do, and use!
*Nob bikers are TERRIFYING. Having fought against them, I managed to take them out after a single volley of Deffguns, one squadron's volley Grotzookas, a unit of Shoota Boyz, a Dread Dredd, and finally Overwatch from my Battlewagon with Burnas inside. T5 and FNP not being denied by AP2 has made them really, really tough to kill. (not to mention Look Out Sir!, etc).
*Kanz are still great. Surviving Immobilized results helps a lot, Grotzookas are even more fantastic.
*Hull Points means Trukks are much more survivable. Lower KFF means they are more vulnerable. Overall however, I think it comes out in their favour.
*Lootas are great, particularly with Snap Fire but *need* that 4+ save.
*Dakka Jets and Burna Bommas are BEAUTIFUL. Burna Bommas can take out fliers as well, with a WAAAGH.
*Pre-Measuring is a sexy, sexy thing.
*Weirdboyz have fantastic synergy with Bommas, and in general don't perform to badly either. Very tempting choice.
*Hill Edges have 4+ cover saves!
*Warlord Traits had no effect on either of my games, so no real opinion on them.
*Secondary Objectives were what won both games.
*Having a Dakka Jet makes going second a very tempting choice. You want that enemy flier on the table when your Dakka Jet comes on.
*Killkanon actually helped a LOT. Still not sure if worth the points, though.
*Night Shields are infuriating!
*Zzap Guns are really great. That automatic glance means they can potentially remove two hull points per shot - at at very least, a single hull point on any target.
My Grot Tanks, only used in the second game, performed really poorly. Gets Hot dropped two of them down to a single hull point, and they were cleaned up easily. Sadface :C
8520
Post by: Leth
I was thinking 3 or 4 units of 3 bikers and a unit of nob bikers with stormboyz dakkajets and battlewagon support
54112
Post by: Dr. What
Leth wrote:I was thinking 3 or 4 units of 3 bikers and a unit of nob bikers with stormboyz dakkajets and battlewagon support
Perhaps this?
Wazdakka
Warbikers X3 - Nob with Power Klaw and Bosspole (Included in Total)
Warbikers X3 - Nob with Power Klaw and Bosspole (Included in Total)
Warbikers X3 - Nob with Power Klaw and Bosspole (Included in Total)
Warbikers X3 - Nob with Power Klaw and Bosspole (Included in Total)
Boyz X20 - Shootas, 2 Big Shootas, Nob with Power Klaw, Bosspole, and 'Eavy Armor (Included in Total)
Boyz X20 - Shootas, 2 Big Shootas, Nob with Power Klaw, Bosspole, and 'Eavy Armor (Included in Total)
Deffkoptas X2 - Twin-Linked Rokkit Launchas
Dakkajet - Additional Supa-Shoota, Fighta Ace (Keeping this despite the struggle to avoid arguing and I play against Tau a lot.)
Battlewagon - 4 Big Shootas, Grot Riggers, Kannon (NOT a Kilkannon), Deff Rolla
Battlewagon - 4 Big Shootas, Grot Riggers, Kannon (NOT a Kilkannon), Deff Rolla Automatically Appended Next Post: That's 1.5k
14152
Post by: CT GAMER
I played my first 6th edition game with my Orks tonight (1500pts.).
I didnt run a list made specifically for the new edition: I ran what has been my default 5th edition 1500pt. "Deff Wing Speed Freaks" list because I was curious to see how it would perform under the new rules as is:
*Warboss (m. armour/c. body/attack squig)
*three units of meganobz (3 each) (1 k. rokkit, 1 k. skorcha in each unit) all in trukks w/ b.shoota/r. ram (warboss joins one that is a troops choice)
* two shoota boyz units (11+ nob each) (nob w/ p.klaw/boss pole/1 b. shoota) in trukks as above
* three units of 3 war buggies w/ t.l. rokkits
*two looted wagons w/ boom gun/r. ram/b.shoota
I played a friends GK army ( a compact foot slogging army of paladins, termis, Thrawn, Grand Master, etc.). Not an optimized list for 6th nor my mechanized army. When he saw how many models/vehicles I was deploying he was not amused as he looked at his twenty something models...
I won't go into geat detail about the game because it was a lop-sided victory (I tabled him on fourth turn), instead I'll concentrate on my observations of my Orks and this list under the new rules:
1. Mega-nobz seem far more durable thanks to power/force weapons not ignoring their armour anymore. They tore up his units and had staying power when they would have been sliced to ribbons with ease in 5th.
2. The speed of the fast vehicles and the ground they can cover going flat out is scary. I was able to more easily press the attack when needed and reposition more effectively then in 5th.
3. Not losing immobilized buggies that I left behind was refreshing.
4. I felt like the hull points made my models more durable, which is key in a mechanized rush list like this.
5. Warboss in mega-armour felt like a tank especially becaue I rolled the "tenacity" warlord trait. together him and the mega -nobz he joined couldnt be shifted from the objective they claimed after destoying the enemy unit that had been defending it.
All in all I felt the list performed well under the new rules, got a boost in a number of ways and i would run it again as is.
61528
Post by: heckler
i've got several games of 6th in with the orks, and feel i can now make some assessments.
my games have been 1500-2k points against BT/DA, BT/SW, CSM, CSM/daemon with fateweaver, SM/GK marneus and draigo combo.
i've been running 3 mobs of 30 boys (2 shoota, 1 slugga) with PK nob, and 15 lootas every game. my HQ choices are a warboss and a KFF mek. i've won 4 of the games solidly, and won the last by a very narrow margin (probably would have lost if the game didn't end).
i've taken these choices intermittently:
kan wall
15 burnas in a wagon
19-20 stormboys with zag
nobs with 5 fists, painboy, and a wagon
deffkopta
the warboss is amazingly cheap for the amount of combat effectiveness you can get out of him. he'll chump most non-named HQ's that cost more points and isn't ID'd by str8
the big mek is what he is. a little less survival given to vehicles, but other than that no real change.
the waaagh!! was nerfed a bit. reroll on charge range is nice, but doesn't offset run + charge.
kan wall is far easier to take on. honestly though, it was too difficult to take on for the most minor points investment before. they still are worth it though. 3 dreds for the price of 1 is quite good.
with the forcefield/cover changes, the BW has been easier to damage, but so far has remained on the table in every game fielded. it has been immobilized on a couple of occasions, but the grot riggers and the mek can handle that.
nob squads can't overutilize the janky wound allocation trick anymore, but they still can do some allocating while not being broken. also, a unit of characters to accept/issue challenges and precision strike is pretty nice. in the games i've used them, they haven't been wiped out, won all close combats they were involved in, and while didn't always make up their points in kills, i viewed them as effective for forcing my opponent to overcommit to them instead of my boys units.in one of the games, they took on a unit of 10-12 berserkers, a unit of 10 plague marines, and a daemon prince. by the end of the game, the prince had 2 wounds left, and the other units were gone.
burna wagons continue to be amazing. usually you can cover 5-6 models for an alarming 75+ hits.
zag and the stormboys were used 3 times. one time they took out a unit of noisemarines and a few plague marines. in another, they took out a unit of obliterators and a couple other models. in the last game, they charged draigo and his paladins along with another unit to tie them up. they were counter charged on the following turn by 10 tac marines. the ork mobs tied up all that for 4 combat rounds while killing 4 paladins, 5 tac and putting 2 wounds on draigo.
i think the whole challenge system works out so-so for the orks. the nob is one of the few unit leaders that can be viable with a fist nowadays. a PW sergeant is unlikely to do 2 wounds to the nob, and if a IC fails to kill him he has a good chance of being instant killed by the nob.
i feel that flyers can largely be ignored. for the most part, they don't threaten the tide. if they are a troop carrier then try to immobilize/destroy them. if they are zooming, there is even more of a draw to immobilize.
i believe mega nobz will become the staple unit that opponents love to hate: 2+ save, power klaws, more attacks than equivalents, 2 wounds, and cheap.
7926
Post by: youbedead
Leth wrote:I want to run a wazdakka list and one of the problems I am having is overcoming the leadership problem. It is hard to get them to fearless size without limiting them too much. Ideal sized units are to easy to scare off the board. I was wondering what you all think of a unit of three with nob and big choppa?
For 90 points you have a scoring 4 wound T5 unit with a 4+ persistent cover save and a decent gun that is also very fast. Also the nob is a legitimate threat to vehicles in CC with a strength 7 on the charge. I am a really big fan of big choppas. I could bump them up to 5 and make it so they must take two casualties to test but not sure. [/quote
I run a wazdakka list and honestly there not much you can do about it. Keep wazdakka and a warboss with two of the mobs and then just be smart about 'em. Thankfully you can now regroup at 25% so you can recover easier. Personally I think you need a minimum of 5 models to be effective.
37480
Post by: matphat
Ran this list yesterday against Nids. Purge the alien.
HQ:
Warboss w/ PK, ‘eavy armor, cybork, TL Shoota - [105]
Elite:
5 Lootas
5 Lootas
Troops:
19 Shoota Boyz /w 1x Big Shoota, Nob w/ PK, BP, ‘Eavy armor
20 Shoota Boyz /w 1x Big Shoota, Nob w/ PK, BP, ‘Eavy armor
[334]
Fast:
2x Wartrakk w/ RPJ, TL rokkits, Armor Plates - [110]
Heavy:
Battle Wagon w/ Deffrolla, Armor Plates, RPJ, 4x Big shootas, Riggers
Battle Wagon w/ Deffrolla, Armor Plates, RPJ, 4x Big shootas, Riggers
[300]
Total: 999
Nids were running 2 MCs (Burrower, and Pooper), two units of shooty nidlings, elite CC unit with Warlord attached, and genestealers with HQ attached.
It was a fairly one sided game. Orks really just ravaged the Nids. Primarily, I was able to sit back and shoot for three rounds, and then clean ip the board on round four and five with some CC. By the end of the game it was 8VP to 4VP, Ork favor.
Overall, after a week of games at various point levels, I feel like Orks got a little stronger, and that minor tweaks to all builds will be enough to really make them shine. I wont say they have moved from semi-competitive to competitive, but they are quit e a bit closer.
53504
Post by: Dribble Joy
heckler wrote:i believe mega nobz will become the staple unit that opponents love to hate: 2+ save, power klaws, more attacks than equivalents, 2 wounds, and cheap.
I feel that while meganobs have had a few big holes in their strengths get closed (power weapons and difficult terrain), giving them a more all-round capacity, some smaller ones have opened.
Not being able to run will seriously hamper them if ever left out in the open away from something, sweeping advances can be helpful at times. Plus they are still as vulnerable to all the things that weren't power weapons.
Though they will probably steam roller almost any unit in close combat , we will have to be careful with using them to best effect as a clever opponent will quickly be able to neutralise them.
9217
Post by: KingCracker
Gylen wrote:KingCracker wrote:Jidmah wrote:Yup, and they still have crap LD and no boss pole. I own 30 deff koptaz and have tried about anything with them, including the "I'm crashing 30 ork koptaz into your baneblade"-formation.
They do awesome until your opponent finds out that a tank shock will make them fall back 3d6 roughly 40% of the time. And then there's all those new ld-based curses from the psychic tables. At least they can't get pinned anymore.
Since 6th, Ive been running 5 stock w/1 buzzsaw along with a bikerboss w/bosspole. It has been working really well so far. Its a powerful combo, they are REALLY fast, all those str5 TL shots just tear up units, EVEN MEQs and then they crash into assault and tear whats left right up. I personally rarely used koptas in 5th, and rokkit buggies simply were better hands down. In 6th though? Yea, I havnt touched my buggies, infact I turned a couple back into koptas
Maybe you can clear this up for me. How exactly are Koptas better than Warbuggies in 6th? I would have thought in 5th they were better, but now I can't see why. In 5th, at least you could scout really far (turbo-boost) into your enemy's deployment then possibly get some rear armor shots / 1st round assaults. In 6th, your scout movement is only 12" is it not? Since turbo-boosting happens in the shooting phase. Koptas still suffer from the same problems as they did in 5th. Low leadership and has wounds. Wouldn't a Warbuggy just be a cheaper, better version? Especially for 6th? I'm still investigating which is better and would like some clarification on your statement, but so far, it seems like Warbuggies are best.
The reason is the changes they did to vehicles. In 5th, I could move a squadron of buggies 12 inches infront of an enemy unit, spread out, granting a 4+ cover save to units behind, still fire my TL rokkits into the unit, and then be a road bloack, and if done right would get a 4+ cover from any KFF. The enemy unit would either A. Ignore the buggies and go around them, which being so spread out, makes the enemy unit wasnt movement just to go around. Or B. they would assault. But moving 12 inches would mean the enemy attacks would only hit on a 6, making them very difficult to damage. Now the cover isnt so good, and assaulting a vehicle your hitting on 3+ or 4+ (cant remember which it is) and you can glance vehicles to death. So in 5th they were excellent road blocks and great for area deniment. Now, they would either be glanced to death, or just assaulted and blown apart as easy as pie. Even assault space marines would be able to attack enough to do some damage. And yes they have low leadership, but thats cleared up a bit with a Warboss with bosspole and being multi wound T5 models.
60430
Post by: Da yella 'eads
I can see the attraction of a biker boss with rokkit koptas but the problem is that that they excel at different things.
The biker boss is a CC beast but deffkoptas only have 2 attacks compared to a nob bikers 3 attacks and are S3 not S4 so are not so suited to CC. Consider that a buzz saw costs the same as a PK but you get one less attack per round and on the charge gives S7 and not S9.
When shooting the TL rokkits want to be hitting higher AV whereas the boss's dakkaguns want to be hitting low AV. They also have a slight mismatch in range. The bike is also slower than the kopta so you can only turboboost up to 12" in the shooting phase, wasting the potential 24" boost of the koptas.
They just don''t seem to mesh efficiently. Maybe the benefits (such as the koptas conferring scout to the boss) outweigh these problems but I'm not convinced.
37480
Post by: matphat
I've been running buggies and koptas alternating over the last week.
I feel like the buggy is a little nerfed and the kopta a little buffed.
But I also feel like this more or less puts them on par with each other.
More or less equal all other things considered.
What I think this comes down to is conditional argument.
Each has it's place, but neither does well in the others space.
I still like them both for their various 6th Ed. strengths.
39309
Post by: Jidmah
Ascalam wrote:KFF helps, though not as much as before.
You could scrable their priorities but adding a fast, damaging unit or two that they can't ignore, to harrass them as your BW move up.
It also depends on your usual enemies, and how much terrain is usual at your FLGS.
Mine runs a decent amount of big terrain, and a LOS blocked wagon is a survivable one, at least from that shooter.
When playing pick-up games (or games with people who are unable to create a scenic table) you should always use the terrain-placement ruls from the BRB. I really love that rule, as you can quickly set up a table without anyone whining about terrain being disadvantageous for his deep strikers/horde/snipers. On average you end up with slightly less terrain than in 5th though. Rolling 3's for all table section does make it feel like cities of death though
Dr. What wrote:Now, I'm curious as to other peoples thoughts.
I've run Battlewagon Rushes before. I love them, but there's always a problem.
You've got 3-4 high priority targets that most armies have at least 1 answer to. Battlewagons die, and hopes of victory tend to die with them.
Are they just too fragile to actually compete?
I have lost all my battlewagons so far to deep strikers, flanking moves or lascannons to the side, resulting in death by explosion - so basically everything that would have killed them before. Keep in mind that rocks and ruins still provide 4+ cover, on most tables it's quite easy to get 25% of your battlewagon behind a ruin or a rock.
Orkaswampa wrote:Why not stick 15 burna's with 3 meks inside? ;p Make it bristle with guns, and just move 6inches a turn firing everything, as it will be near the back, guarding the flank, anything that goes near is getting its face burnt off.
Meks replace burnaz, so it would be 12 burnas and 3 meks. Otherwise, agree.
46306
Post by: Beatonator
Kharrak wrote:
*Zzap Guns are really great. That automatic glance means they can potentially remove two hull points per shot - at at very least, a single hull point on any target.
Can you clarify this? Why do Zzap Guns get auto-glance? Is this a specific rule to Zzap Guns in 6th, that I have missed or is it something else?
39309
Post by: Jidmah
Beatonator wrote:Kharrak wrote:
*Zzap Guns are really great. That automatic glance means they can potentially remove two hull points per shot - at at very least, a single hull point on any target.
Can you clarify this? Why do Zzap Guns get auto-glance? Is this a specific rule to Zzap Guns in 6th, that I have missed or is it something else?
They auto-shake. That's not the same as taking off a hull points. It does make more sense when you don't roll on the damage table for glances, but that's about it.
9217
Post by: KingCracker
Da yella 'eads wrote:I can see the attraction of a biker boss with rokkit koptas but the problem is that that they excel at different things.
The biker boss is a CC beast but deffkoptas only have 2 attacks compared to a nob bikers 3 attacks and are S3 not S4 so are not so suited to CC. Consider that a buzz saw costs the same as a PK but you get one less attack per round and on the charge gives S7 and not S9.
When shooting the TL rokkits want to be hitting higher AV whereas the boss's dakkaguns want to be hitting low AV. They also have a slight mismatch in range. The bike is also slower than the kopta so you can only turboboost up to 12" in the shooting phase, wasting the potential 24" boost of the koptas.
They just don''t seem to mesh efficiently. Maybe the benefits (such as the koptas conferring scout to the boss) outweigh these problems but I'm not convinced.
Im not using rokkits, they are stock, with 1 having a buzzsaw. The TL bigshootas and DAKKAgun match up very nicely, and they cause quite alot of damage to units and low armor. And sticking a buzzsaw in there also allows the unit to have some bit all its own, not to mention they are all T5 multiwound models, so they can really take a beating, specially with a BP boss in there. They also confer hit and run as well, not to mention if I want to break them apart I can, AND the unit is mostly there to keep the bullets from killing off my boss before he gets to the lines and does what he does best, kill things with ease
60430
Post by: Da yella 'eads
Im not using rokkits, they are stock, with 1 having a buzzsaw. The TL bigshootas and DAKKAgun match up very nicely, and they cause quite alot of damage to units and low armor. And sticking a buzzsaw in there also allows the unit to have some bit all its own, not to mention they are all T5 multiwound models, so they can really take a beating, specially with a BP boss in there. They also confer hit and run as well, not to mention if I want to break them apart I can, AND the unit is mostly there to keep the bullets from killing off my boss before he gets to the lines and does what he does best, kill things with ease
Ah, sorry I misread it. Yeah, the big shootas will match up well and run 10 points cheaper than rokkits. I can see the Hit And Run gain being extremely useful since it makes it easier to stay in CC rather than getting shot to pieces (great for the warboss). Also, you can leave the opponent stranded at the end of their turn so they can be shot to pieces, and you can then recharge next round to regain Furious Charge. Nice.
I also love the idea of a biker boss riding out and being escorted by a bunch of crazy kopta pilots to the tune of Ride of the Valkyries.
You know what, I'm gonna try out this combo!
37480
Post by: matphat
Da yella 'eads wrote:Im not using rokkits, they are stock, with 1 having a buzzsaw. The TL bigshootas and DAKKAgun match up very nicely, and they cause quite alot of damage to units and low armor. And sticking a buzzsaw in there also allows the unit to have some bit all its own, not to mention they are all T5 multiwound models, so they can really take a beating, specially with a BP boss in there. They also confer hit and run as well, not to mention if I want to break them apart I can, AND the unit is mostly there to keep the bullets from killing off my boss before he gets to the lines and does what he does best, kill things with ease
Ah, sorry I misread it. Yeah, the big shootas will match up well and run 10 points cheaper than rokkits. I can see the Hit And Run gain being extremely useful since it makes it easier to stay in CC rather than getting shot to pieces (great for the warboss). Also, you can leave the opponent stranded at the end of their turn so they can be shot to pieces, and you can then recharge next round to regain Furious Charge. Nice.
I also love the idea of a biker boss riding out and being escorted by a bunch of crazy kopta pilots to the tune of Ride of the Valkyries.
You know what, I'm gonna try out this combo!
Ran this exact combo last week. Outflanked the Boss and Koptas into the side of his Vindicator line. Blew up the first one on that Outflank turn, Soaked some fire, shot and then assaulted the second one on the next turn and wrecked it. After that my wagons had hit the front line and it was all over for that game. Great combo. Just DIFFERENT than running with Bikers.
20015
Post by: latrodectus
Dr. What wrote:Leth wrote:I was thinking 3 or 4 units of 3 bikers and a unit of nob bikers with stormboyz dakkajets and battlewagon support
Perhaps this?
Wazdakka
Warbikers X3 - Nob with Power Klaw and Bosspole (Included in Total)
Warbikers X3 - Nob with Power Klaw and Bosspole (Included in Total)
Warbikers X3 - Nob with Power Klaw and Bosspole (Included in Total)
Warbikers X3 - Nob with Power Klaw and Bosspole (Included in Total)
Boyz X20 - Shootas, 2 Big Shootas, Nob with Power Klaw, Bosspole, and 'Eavy Armor (Included in Total)
Boyz X20 - Shootas, 2 Big Shootas, Nob with Power Klaw, Bosspole, and 'Eavy Armor (Included in Total)
Deffkoptas X2 - Twin-Linked Rokkit Launchas
Dakkajet - Additional Supa-Shoota, Fighta Ace (Keeping this despite the struggle to avoid arguing and I play against Tau a lot.)
Battlewagon - 4 Big Shootas, Grot Riggers, Kannon (NOT a Kilkannon), Deff Rolla
Battlewagon - 4 Big Shootas, Grot Riggers, Kannon (NOT a Kilkannon), Deff Rolla
Automatically Appended Next Post:
That's 1.5k
I actually have been thinking about a similar list to this... Here is what I was considering at 1.5k:
The gretchen obviously go with the Defense Line in the backfield, taking down fliers, and getting ridiculous cover saves. MSU Lootaz are kind of the norm, so that should be self explanatory. The Dakkajets are just REALLY good. They kill everything. Also, what rules are being argued when it comes to the Fighta Ace? FAQ says to reference the BRB for Strafing Run, which is painfully clear.
I like the MSU approach for Warbikers as well, since most armies seem to have large units that concentrate fire. This limits the potential to run your entire force off the board, and it's a good way to get PKs into whatever you like. Also, Dakkaguns are SO good! Glancing side armour to death is tons of fun.
If you're not able to take IA characters, you could drop some Gretchen and a Runtherd and change to Wazdakka... but Zhadsnark is so fun, and his model is gorgeous...
Thoughts?
8520
Post by: Leth
I was thinking about for my ork biker army one maxed out biker Unit with claw nob and then small 3 man units with choppa nob. With dakkajet stormboyz and some guns for back up. Maybe some nob bikers 5 man unit of them
54112
Post by: Dr. What
latrodectus wrote:Dr. What wrote:Leth wrote:I was thinking 3 or 4 units of 3 bikers and a unit of nob bikers with stormboyz dakkajets and battlewagon support
Perhaps this?
Wazdakka
Warbikers X3 - Nob with Power Klaw and Bosspole (Included in Total)
Warbikers X3 - Nob with Power Klaw and Bosspole (Included in Total)
Warbikers X3 - Nob with Power Klaw and Bosspole (Included in Total)
Warbikers X3 - Nob with Power Klaw and Bosspole (Included in Total)
Boyz X20 - Shootas, 2 Big Shootas, Nob with Power Klaw, Bosspole, and 'Eavy Armor (Included in Total)
Boyz X20 - Shootas, 2 Big Shootas, Nob with Power Klaw, Bosspole, and 'Eavy Armor (Included in Total)
Deffkoptas X2 - Twin-Linked Rokkit Launchas
Dakkajet - Additional Supa-Shoota, Fighta Ace (Keeping this despite the struggle to avoid arguing and I play against Tau a lot.)
Battlewagon - 4 Big Shootas, Grot Riggers, Kannon (NOT a Kilkannon), Deff Rolla
Battlewagon - 4 Big Shootas, Grot Riggers, Kannon (NOT a Kilkannon), Deff Rolla
Automatically Appended Next Post:
That's 1.5k
I actually have been thinking about a similar list to this... Here is what I was considering at 1.5k:
Zhadsnark (my group allows FW rules/Characters, and this is the Biker Boss from IA8)
Warbikers X3 - Nob with Power Klaw/Bosspole
Warbikers X3 - Nob with Power Klaw/Bosspole
Warbikers X3 - Nob with Power Klaw/Bosspole
Warbikers X3 - Nob with Power Klaw/Bosspole
Warbikers X3 - Nob with Power Klaw/Bosspole
Gretchen x23 - 2 Runtherds
Lootaz x5
Lootaz x5
Lootaz x5
Dakkajet - Additional Supa-Shoota
Dakkajet - Additional Supa-Shoota
Dakkajet - Additional Supa-Shoota
Aegis Defense Line - Quad Gun Emplacement[
The gretchen obviously go with the Defense Line in the backfield, taking down fliers, and getting ridiculous cover saves. MSU Lootaz are kind of the norm, so that should be self explanatory. The Dakkajets are just REALLY good. They kill everything. Also, what rules are being argued when it comes to the Fighta Ace? FAQ says to reference the BRB for Strafing Run, which is painfully clear.
I like the MSU approach for Warbikers as well, since most armies seem to have large units that concentrate fire. This limits the potential to run your entire force off the board, and it's a good way to get PKs into whatever you like. Also, Dakkaguns are SO good! Glancing side armour to death is tons of fun.
If you're not able to take IA characters, you could drop some Gretchen and a Runtherd and change to Wazdakka... but Zhadsnark is so fun, and his model is gorgeous...
Thoughts?
I can't take IA, mostly because I can't even afford the books. :(
I'm thinking the mobs of 3 work best. They're Orks that should cripple the opponent with shooting, then assault (Hammer of Wrath!) to finish them off.
Deffkoptas without rokkits could provide even more anti-infantry. Then let the PK's or Battlewagons deal with the few tanks left.
8520
Post by: Leth
So yea I was doing the math for Powerclaw vrs big choppa and it is difficult. Cause outside of combat you basically get another biker and all the shooting he offers. In combat combined the powerclaw nob is much better against marines, but worse if you consider that he is striking at the same time instead of before powerfists and axes. Against vehicles it is a tough call because the vehicle is most likely going to die to all those attacks from the orks(4 each at strength 4)
But also it is just the number of points across the army that it would cost to give them all power claws. An extra 20 points per unit adds up really quickly. I think for fewer units then it is claws, but for more units then choppas.
I was also thinking of something like
Wazdakka
12x bikers with Claw nob
2x3 bikers with big choppa nob and banner
Throw Wazdakka in either the smaller units or the really big one and then use the smaller units to eat overwatch/take on 5 man marine units or 10 man GEQ units.
Thats 700 points and a solid core to the army
2 mandatory dakkajets(cause I loves them such awesome models and fun to play with going "DAKKADAKKADAKKA whenever I shot with it) thats another 260
960 gone, Then I like to take necron allies
Nemesor, variable unit of immortals(change it up to make he points work for the odd numbers) with a pulse tek(give my bikes those yummy improved cover saves) and a doom scythe. Thats another 500 on the dot(right now)
Sitting at 700 plus 260 plus 500 Thats 1460. Add in two more immortals, or if I freed up about 30 points I could instead get an aegis defense line with the re-roll for reserves that the immortals will sit on as they guard my home objective. Or just 10 points for the line by itself. So final list for 1500 looks like
Wazdakka
12x bikers with power claw nob
2x3 bikers with big choppa nob and boss pole
2x dakka jet with extra shoota and ace fighter
Nemesor
7x immortals
Doom Scythe
For 2000 I would add in:
Warboss - Powerclaw, Attacksquig, cybork, bosspole and warbike
5x nob bikers - Stickbombs, cybork body(more for CC than shooting but with the number of template weapons I expect to start seeing, or things that ignore coversaves(looking at you tau) I want that back up.
Pain boy with grot orderly
2x nobs with big choppas
1x nob with waggghhh banner
1x nob with power claw and shoota/skorcha
Exactly 500 points, I could add some or lose some here pretty easily
So how does that list look to you guys?
9217
Post by: KingCracker
Da yella 'eads wrote:Im not using rokkits, they are stock, with 1 having a buzzsaw. The TL bigshootas and DAKKAgun match up very nicely, and they cause quite alot of damage to units and low armor. And sticking a buzzsaw in there also allows the unit to have some bit all its own, not to mention they are all T5 multiwound models, so they can really take a beating, specially with a BP boss in there. They also confer hit and run as well, not to mention if I want to break them apart I can, AND the unit is mostly there to keep the bullets from killing off my boss before he gets to the lines and does what he does best, kill things with ease
Ah, sorry I misread it. Yeah, the big shootas will match up well and run 10 points cheaper than rokkits. I can see the Hit And Run gain being extremely useful since it makes it easier to stay in CC rather than getting shot to pieces (great for the warboss). Also, you can leave the opponent stranded at the end of their turn so they can be shot to pieces, and you can then recharge next round to regain Furious Charge. Nice.
I also love the idea of a biker boss riding out and being escorted by a bunch of crazy kopta pilots to the tune of Ride of the Valkyries.
You know what, I'm gonna try out this combo!
Yea see, sometimes its best to think about as many possibilities of different unit builds for that reason. You think koptas and instantly think TL rokkits, because they pack such a punch. When really its the TL bigshootas that do the damage just by sheer volume, and all the goodies you get from the 2 units coming together. Its pretty nice and really tough against anything STR4 or less in CC
54112
Post by: Dr. What
Leth wrote:So yea I was doing the math for Powerclaw vrs big choppa and it is difficult. Cause outside of combat you basically get another biker and all the shooting he offers. In combat combined the powerclaw nob is much better against marines, but worse if you consider that he is striking at the same time instead of before powerfists and axes. Against vehicles it is a tough call because the vehicle is most likely going to die to all those attacks from the orks(4 each at strength 4)
But also it is just the number of points across the army that it would cost to give them all power claws. An extra 20 points per unit adds up really quickly. I think for fewer units then it is claws, but for more units then choppas.
I was also thinking of something like
Wazdakka
12x bikers with Claw nob
2x3 bikers with big choppa nob and banner
Throw Wazdakka in either the smaller units or the really big one and then use the smaller units to eat overwatch/take on 5 man marine units or 10 man GEQ units.
Thats 700 points and a solid core to the army
2 mandatory dakkajets(cause I loves them such awesome models and fun to play with going "DAKKADAKKADAKKA whenever I shot with it) thats another 260
960 gone, Then I like to take necron allies
Nemesor, variable unit of immortals(change it up to make he points work for the odd numbers) with a pulse tek(give my bikes those yummy improved cover saves) and a doom scythe. Thats another 500 on the dot(right now)
Sitting at 700 plus 260 plus 500 Thats 1460. Add in two more immortals, or if I freed up about 30 points I could instead get an aegis defense line with the re-roll for reserves that the immortals will sit on as they guard my home objective. Or just 10 points for the line by itself. So final list for 1500 looks like
Wazdakka
12x bikers with power claw nob
2x3 bikers with big choppa nob and boss pole
2x dakka jet with extra shoota and ace fighter
Nemesor
7x immortals
Doom Scythe
For 2000 I would add in:
Warboss - Powerclaw, Attacksquig, cybork, bosspole and warbike
5x nob bikers - Stickbombs, cybork body(more for CC than shooting but with the number of template weapons I expect to start seeing, or things that ignore coversaves(looking at you tau) I want that back up.
Pain boy with grot orderly
2x nobs with big choppas
1x nob with waggghhh banner
1x nob with power claw and shoota/skorcha
Exactly 500 points, I could add some or lose some here pretty easily
So how does that list look to you guys?
Now, even with Warbikers, is a PK that necessary?
IMHO, even Ork Warbikers are glass cannons that rely more on mid range shooting and cover to achieve there goals.
8520
Post by: Leth
That is why outside of the warbosses there are only two. Also the kill ratio between regular/choppa and a claw is huge. Even if you add in another bike instead of the power claw it is much better than both combined in CC. Trade off is another shot and I would only really increase the size of the immortals unit or add an aegis defense line.
25232
Post by: mrfantastical
So I played this today against daemons and had success.
Bikez n Bulletz (Orks)
HQ - 140
Warboss (140)
power klaw; warbike; cybork body; bosspole.
Elites - 225
15 Lootas (225)
Mek.
Troops - 450
6 Nobz (410)
Painboy; 3× big choppa; 2× power klaw; 3× slugga; Waaagh! banner; warbikes; cybork bodies.
10 Gretchin (40)
Runtherd.
Heavy Support - 197
3 Big Gunz (87)
6× additional Grot Krew; 3× ammo runts.
Battlewagon (110)
4× big shoota.
1,012 points
I know this is an awkward point total, but this is what my opponent wanted. Lootas were run in Dakka Battlewagon, and did really well against a flying MC.
Nob Bikerz were amazing as always, but the real surprise was the 3 Kannons. They managed to kill 3x their points before whiffing during a shooting phase and being assaulted the next opp turn. I can see running more at higher points.
42002
Post by: Kharrak
Yup, I totally misunderstood the Zzap Gun. My memory told me that it auto-glanced as long as it hit - sooooo... completely wrong on that regard.
Grabba Claws, for only 5pts, are a very interesting anti-flier piece of wargear. If you can get that wagon so that the Grabba Klaw is within 2" of the flier, there's a 50% chance it's going to crash and burn at the start of your opponents turn. (at least, until it's FAQ'd).
Challenges haven't been an issue for me, though. Denying a challenge so that my boys can strike at the character isn't a loss, particularly if I have two Klaws in the unit, so one will always get to strike. And, of course, placing models so that your character can't accept a challenge, then moves in on his initiative phase to strike as normal. Taught a Necron player some very hard lessons on how to bypass challenges ;D
Again, I can't see me dropping my Kanz. Their effectiveness, particularly with blast clipping in 6th, is too tempting. The Dakka Jet speaks for itself, though I've had mixed experiences with it and vehicles. My first time using it, it caused a single glance on a Venom :C
I DID, however, use it in conjunction with my Kanz to completely wipe out a 20 man strong Necron Warrior unit with Despair Tech and Res Orb Lord in a single shooting phase. That was beautiful. Against a rhino, though... a single glance... yet I can't see myself dropping it
60674
Post by: Bomb Squig
Yeah I recently changed my blitza bommer into a dakkajet and I prefer it much more. Havin that many shots TL hitting on a 3+ is just great.
34390
Post by: whembly
Tactic for Trukks.
Help me out here.
I've been seeing posts that Trukks aren't worth it anymore... I think I disagree and here's why:
1) Trukks are 3 HP and glances don't do anything other than take HP. So... no more wreckage via Glance shots (-1 on vehicle chart) ala 5th ed.
2) If I'm reading the fast vehicle rules right... they're even faster in 6th. 12" move in movement phase plus the additional 12" in shooting phase (flat out). That's MUCH better than 5th.
3) When a vehicle explodes, it's STR4 to occupants irregardless if vehicle is open-top or not. HOWEVER, Trukks always roll on the ramshackle table in the ork codex... and kaboom! states that the orks takes STR3 wounds (not STR4).
4) The only nerf that I see is that fact that if you're wrecked/exploded on your opponent's turn, you can't assault.
So... to me, trukk armies are as viable, if not better than 5th.
Thoughts?
52054
Post by: MrMoustaffa
whembly wrote:Tactic for Trukks.
Help me out here.
I've been seeing posts that Trukks aren't worth it anymore... I think I disagree and here's why:
1) Trukks are 3 HP and glances don't do anything other than take HP. So... no more wreckage via Glance shots (-1 on vehicle chart) ala 5th ed.
2) If I'm reading the fast vehicle rules right... they're even faster in 6th. 12" move in movement phase plus the additional 12" in shooting phase (flat out). That's MUCH better than 5th.
3) When a vehicle explodes, it's STR4 to occupants irregardless if vehicle is open-top or not. HOWEVER, Trukks always roll on the ramshackle table in the ork codex... and kaboom! states that the orks takes STR3 wounds (not STR4).
4) The only nerf that I see is that fact that if you're wrecked/exploded on your opponent's turn, you can't assault.
So... to me, trukk armies are as viable, if not better than 5th.
Thoughts?
The problem isn't the trukk, its what's inside it. 12 boys are hardly enough to threaten most targets, and unless you're chargin two or 3 squads into a unit, they won't do a ton of damage. I gave them a try the other day, and the losses they suffer from overwatch hurts way worse than you would think. You've only got 12 boys to begin with. Even losing one or 2 is a huge blow and really hurts what minor killing power you had to begin with.
Nobz and meganobz can probably be ok, but I would much rather have them in a proper battlewagon than a flimsy AV 10 trukk.
9217
Post by: KingCracker
I dunno, a trukk for a MANz mob is only 35pts, where as a BW is 90 before upgrades. You can put a bunch of gak into an Ork build with those points.
36940
Post by: Anvildude
Lessee... Assuming we want maximum Meganobz per mob, that'll be 240 per, with 2 Mobz at only 200, to fit some Mega Warbosses. So 3x275, 2x535 (assuming a 100 point 'cheap as chips 'Megabozz). Add in some Kombi-weapons and dealez for the Trukks and Warbosses, you have yourself a nice little shockforce at 2000 points, maybe even with Grotsnik and Cybork if you're going to 2000.(as an extra HQ). That'd be 27 Meganobz, all with Cybrok, along with 2 Megabozzes, anand Grotsnik. Something skary.
39309
Post by: Jidmah
whembly wrote:Tactic for Trukks.
Help me out here.
I've been seeing posts that Trukks aren't worth it anymore... I think I disagree and here's why:
1) Trukks are 3 HP and glances don't do anything other than take HP. So... no more wreckage via Glance shots (-1 on vehicle chart) ala 5th ed.
2) If I'm reading the fast vehicle rules right... they're even faster in 6th. 12" move in movement phase plus the additional 12" in shooting phase (flat out). That's MUCH better than 5th.
3) When a vehicle explodes, it's STR4 to occupants irregardless if vehicle is open-top or not. HOWEVER, Trukks always roll on the ramshackle table in the ork codex... and kaboom! states that the orks takes STR3 wounds (not STR4).
4) The only nerf that I see is that fact that if you're wrecked/exploded on your opponent's turn, you can't assault.
So... to me, trukk armies are as viable, if not better than 5th.
Thoughts?
Open topped vehicles are assault vehicles, which allows their passengers to assault, even if the vehicle is nothing but a smoldering crater.
Also keep in mind that Kaboom! still leaves craters as per the ork FAQ.
25232
Post by: mrfantastical
whembly wrote:Tactic for Trukks.
Help me out here.
I've been seeing posts that Trukks aren't worth it anymore... I think I disagree and here's why:
1) Trukks are 3 HP and glances don't do anything other than take HP. So... no more wreckage via Glance shots (-1 on vehicle chart) ala 5th ed.
2) If I'm reading the fast vehicle rules right... they're even faster in 6th. 12" move in movement phase plus the additional 12" in shooting phase (flat out). That's MUCH better than 5th.
3) When a vehicle explodes, it's STR4 to occupants irregardless if vehicle is open-top or not. HOWEVER, Trukks always roll on the ramshackle table in the ork codex... and kaboom! states that the orks takes STR3 wounds (not STR4).
4) The only nerf that I see is that fact that if you're wrecked/exploded on your opponent's turn, you can't assault.
So... to me, trukk armies are as viable, if not better than 5th.
Thoughts?
Trukks are still one of the easiest vehicles to destroy in the entire game, and we don't get items to save the trukk from blowing up (like flicker fields).
That being said, every game has a 50% chance of having night fighting first turn, and you have a 1/6 chance of making it night fighting on the first turn via a strategic warlord trait. So add a KFF, and get lucky on the night fighting rolls, and you're trukks have anywhere from a 3-5 cover save.
Or you could just win the starting roll, and not worry about it.
Eitherway, I think I might try this out.
53504
Post by: Dribble Joy
Bomb Squig wrote:Yeah I recently changed my blitza bommer into a dakkajet and I prefer it much more. Havin that many shots TL hitting on a 3+ is just great.
4+.
Strafing run grants you +1 against 'ground' targets, Fights Ace grants +1 against skimmers, jetbikes and fliers only.
Edited to include fliers.
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Post by: Leth
So Dakkajets are still BS2 against jump infantry, or is it BS3?
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Post by: matphat
It has been said many times in this thread that Fighta Ace gives BS3 against flyers. But you can only get official rules from the digital copy on the ipad.
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Post by: Bomb Squig
Dribble Joy wrote:Bomb Squig wrote:Yeah I recently changed my blitza bommer into a dakkajet and I prefer it much more. Havin that many shots TL hitting on a 3+ is just great.
4+.
Strafing run grants you +1 against 'ground' targets, Fights Ace grants +1 against skimmers, jetbikes and fliers only.
Edited to include fliers.
Oops, I meant 3 BS, 4+. Sorry about that
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Post by: nitrodaddy1324
wasent the whole point of a trukk was to get the boyz into combat as quick as possible? and then once the boyz are in combat they are basiclly mobile cover. I think trukks are going to be just as effective in 6th as they were in 5th.
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Post by: illuknisaa
Dribble Joy wrote:Bomb Squig wrote:Yeah I recently changed my blitza bommer into a dakkajet and I prefer it much more. Havin that many shots TL hitting on a 3+ is just great.
4+.
Strafing run grants you +1 against 'ground' targets, Fights Ace grants +1 against skimmers, jetbikes and fliers only.
Edited to include fliers.
You hit jetbikes with 3+, +1 bs from starfing run and you get bs 3 (rule says that you count as having bs 3 against flying "things" including jetbikes) from fighta ace.
So Saim Hann...
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Post by: Matt.Kingsley
I thought jetbikes weren't included in the rules for strafing run?
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Post by: illuknisaa
Rulebook says that bikes are affected and excludes skimmers and flyers.
I'm just assuming it means all bikes.
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Post by: valminder
G00fySmiley wrote:to me the mad dok has never really accomplished anything unless he is snikrot'd in and this time he can't even assault out of that move so he and his unit could be kited around the board fairly easily by one biek jet bike of jump infantry group while they shot the unit to shreds
mad dok is a cool model with a neat back story but one scaple short of a medpack did not change so he still sits in my case unused
Try Mad Dok in an Apocalypse game with the Apocalypse formation of 100+ boys .... it was awesome !!!!!!!!!!!
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Post by: mrfantastical
I've played a few game lately and my biggest problem has been AV 14. Every game I've managed to kill everything on the board, but leaving landraiders with no way of killing them.
I have been thinking of running a suicide Warboss on a bike, to run with my Nobz. The Boss would only be there to solo assault Landraiders.... What do you guys think?
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Post by: matphat
mrfantastical wrote:I've played a few game lately and my biggest problem has been AV 14. Every game I've managed to kill everything on the board, but leaving landraiders with no way of killing them.
I have been thinking of running a suicide Warboss on a bike, to run with my Nobz. The Boss would only be there to solo assault Landraiders.... What do you guys think?
I might go with a little more subtle change first. Before dumping a ton of points on a Biker Boss, just to address AV14, try massing a number of Rokkits and give them a go.
With the new hull point rules, Rokkits are better than ever.
My personal fav is Rokkit Buggies. Cheap, Fast, and Twin Linked.
Koptas and BWs are great platforms as well.
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Post by: Jidmah
mrfantastical wrote:I've played a few game lately and my biggest problem has been AV 14. Every game I've managed to kill everything on the board, but leaving landraiders with no way of killing them.
I have been thinking of running a suicide Warboss on a bike, to run with my Nobz. The Boss would only be there to solo assault Landraiders.... What do you guys think?
So what? Just leave the stupid box where it is and dodge it. If it's Godhammer (I believe that's what the regular one is called?), it will never kill enough orks to make it worth its points anyways. The redeemer can really hurt you if you aren't careful - however, if spread out correctly, not even those flamestorm cannons are that dangerous anymore. Keep in mind, that the sponsons my not templates covering their own hull. The most dangerous one is actually the crusader, as its weapons can kill droves of boyz and its increased transport size means more deadly cargo. Make sure to block it with your vehicles to force it to either ram or go around them. If you manage to kill everything but the landraider, you should win about any mission anyways. Land Raiders can't even contest your objectives anymore.
If you want to kill it however, possible options beside the warboss would be deff rollas, DCCW on kanz or deff dreads, tank bustaz or maybe blitza bommers.
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Post by: WvLopp
I have played 3 games so far of 6th edition. The last two have been with a Big Mek with a KFF. Even with the 5+ save it gives now, I think it is still worth it. It has saved my green orkish butt several times. I don't know why, but last edition I never really used my burna boys. I have used them in all three of these games. They do awesome.
Just thought I would share
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Post by: sudojoe
I'm debating on getting some psyker defenses and thinking of options.maybe having something like a farseer with runes of warding on a jetbike cowering way in the corner 6' from anything else with maybe some cheap jetbike troops or something *maybe a last turn contest*. Necron fliers doen't scare me with the amount of bodies I tend to run with now a days but I fear that psychich powers will really mess me up down the line.
What do you guys think?
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Post by: Jidmah
Eldar are desperate allies, so they can't score or contest objectives.
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Post by: sudojoe
Jidmah wrote:Eldar are desperate allies, so they can't score or contest objectives.
ahh darn, oh well I can probably still go use those jetbikes to fly forward and charge/suicide something while I hide the farseer in the corner.
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Post by: mrfantastical
matphat wrote:
I might go with a little more subtle change first. Before dumping a ton of points on a Biker Boss, just to address AV14, try massing a number of Rokkits and give them a go.
With the new hull point rules, Rokkits are better than ever.
My personal fav is Rokkit Buggies. Cheap, Fast, and Twin Linked.
Koptas and BWs are great platforms as well.
I tried this and I just couldn't put enough hull point damage out to kill it before it could drop off his cargo. Also i have to kill landraiders quickly before my opponents assault unit jumps out and shreds my front lines.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jidmah wrote:
So what? Just leave the stupid box where it is and dodge it. If it's Godhammer (I believe that's what the regular one is called?), it will never kill enough orks to make it worth its points anyways. The redeemer can really hurt you if you aren't careful - however, if spread out correctly, not even those flamestorm cannons are that dangerous anymore. Keep in mind, that the sponsons my not templates covering their own hull. The most dangerous one is actually the crusader, as its weapons can kill droves of boyz and its increased transport size means more deadly cargo. Make sure to block it with your vehicles to force it to either ram or go around them. If you manage to kill everything but the landraider, you should win about any mission anyways. Land Raiders can't even contest your objectives anymore.
If you want to kill it however, possible options beside the warboss would be deff rollas, DCCW on kanz or deff dreads, tank bustaz or maybe blitza bommers.
The list I've been running has had so much dakka I need marines to be out in the fresh air so I can kill them. Problem is that we don't have reliable range options to deal with AV 14 (this makes tank bustaz, and the Blita Bommer not reliable). Also since all vehicles can move an additional 6" (flat out), and move 12" and still shoot everything, I've seen deffrolla's get kited (which would also make Kanz, and Dreadz to slow). When it comes to killing AV14, Orks just punch it. And I think trading a 140 point Warboss for a 220-260 point landraider is a good trade off. The Warboss would have an average 19" threat range ( might even be further if you Waaagh!), can have 6 attacks that hit on 3's, and start doing hull damage on 4's. My math may be wrong but in this edition that translates to a 66% chance of immobilizing it, and 43% chance of blowing it up.
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Post by: Jidmah
mrfantastical wrote:The list I've been running has had so much dakka I need marines to be out in the fresh air so I can kill them. Problem is that we don't have reliable range options to deal with AV 14 (this makes tank bustaz, and the Blita Bommer not reliable). Also since all vehicles can move an additional 6" (flat out), and move 12" and still shoot everything, I've seen deffrolla's get kited (which would also make Kanz, and Dreadz to slow). When it comes to killing AV14, Orks just punch it. And I think trading a 140 point Warboss for a 220-260 point landraider is a good trade off. The Warboss would have an average 19" threat range ( might even be further if you Waaagh!), can have 6 attacks that hit on 3's, and start doing hull damage on 4's. My math may be wrong but in this edition that translates to a 66% chance of immobilizing it, and 43% chance of blowing it up.
Woah, hold it, you've got like dozen rules wrong there. Vehicles moving flat out may not shoot anything (except PotMS), non-fast vehicles moving 12" may only snap-fire (so no flamestorm cannons). In addition, the Waagh! only affects infantry, so the warboss on a bike is unaffected. You do not get to roll on the damage table for glances, so the chance to immobilize it is never higher than any other result. Also keep in mind that the PK is AP2 so the chance to explode it is higher than any other damage result. Marines inside a landraider can neither contest nor capture objectives and obviously not shoot either.
As for your math, each attack has a 22% chance to penetrate and a 33% chance to take a hull point off - the result is a 37% chance to blow the landraider up right away(assuming six attacks), as well as half that chance to immobilize it. The chance to cause it to lose four or more hull points at once is a little higher than 10%, not counting multiple immobilizes. So while the warboss is the best tool to handle the landraider, he is not guaranteed to do so at all. Tank bustaz are almost guaranteed to take off a hull point each round of shooting, and the landraider is pretty much dead if they ever catch it in combat - tank hammers, PK and tankbusta bombs will see to that. Bitza bommers are only usefull in multiples, as they are missing any useful AP. On the other hand, they will almost never miss a landraider. If the landraider is giving you as much trouble as you're claiming, you should look into that.
So I'm still saying, simply ignore the landraider. If it's trying to dodge your deff rolla (which can move 18/19" per turn, too), it's not going to do any useful shooting. If he's trying to unload marines onto objectives during his last turn. Simply grab two and hope for turn six. Bring your warboss along and hope to catch it, but don't suicide him. Unless you bring a second warboss he is going to be your Warlord and thus worth a VP. Keep him with the main bulk of your army jump the landraider if it gets too close. Keep in mind that 6th no longer limits his movement, so he can do that 19" charge right out of a unit of boyz (though you're better off assuming a 17" charge). It's not that hard to outplay land raiders (especially if you manage to kill the rest of the army), no need to kill them.
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Post by: matphat
Or short of ignoring it, take some Tau allies, take three broadsides with rail guns, and you are all set.
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Post by: Dribble Joy
You can always bait the contents of the Land Raider too. Orks excel at sacrificial units.
A Land Raider and it's contents is a big point sink, unlike a wagon, they are too expensive to really work with multiple redundancy without crippling the rest of the army.
Focus on the rest of the opponent's army and force the contents of his shiny metal box to respond to what you're laying down rather than allow them to dictate your course of action.
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Post by: Anvildude
An option with the Battlewagon is to take a Close Combat Wagon- as was said, you can move just as fast as the Land Raider (and have less fear from Dangerous Terrain, too!) can ignore most of the weapons it has on the BW's front armour, and can do melee damage. Plus, you can move faster. If you're chasing them, and they're moving fast enough that they can only use PotMS, they're down a lot of their strength and out of the way. Whereas, if you take a Battlewagon with Boarding Plank, Wrekkin' Ball, Grabbin' Klaw (which keeps it from runnin!) and Deffrolla, you're doing quite a bit of damage even if you can't shoot.
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Post by: More Dakka
Jidmah wrote: In addition, the Waagh! only affects infantry, so the warboss on a bike is unaffected.
Wait what? I don't see anything in the FAQ that says a Warboss or Nobz on bikes lose their Waaagh ability.
It was a moot point in 5th because bikes can't run, but as far as I can tell a Biker Boss and Biker Nobz can Waaagh and re-roll one or both charge dice.
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Post by: mrfantastical
Jidmah wrote:mrfantastical wrote:The list I've been running has had so much dakka I need marines to be out in the fresh air so I can kill them. Problem is that we don't have reliable range options to deal with AV 14 (this makes tank bustaz, and the Blita Bommer not reliable). Also since all vehicles can move an additional 6" (flat out), and move 12" and still shoot everything, I've seen deffrolla's get kited (which would also make Kanz, and Dreadz to slow). When it comes to killing AV14, Orks just punch it. And I think trading a 140 point Warboss for a 220-260 point landraider is a good trade off. The Warboss would have an average 19" threat range ( might even be further if you Waaagh!), can have 6 attacks that hit on 3's, and start doing hull damage on 4's. My math may be wrong but in this edition that translates to a 66% chance of immobilizing it, and 43% chance of blowing it up.
Woah, hold it, you've got like dozen rules wrong there. Vehicles moving flat out may not shoot anything (except PotMS), non-fast vehicles moving 12" may only snap-fire (so no flamestorm cannons). In addition, the Waagh! only affects infantry, so the warboss on a bike is unaffected. You do not get to roll on the damage table for glances, so the chance to immobilize it is never higher than any other result. Also keep in mind that the PK is AP2 so the chance to explode it is higher than any other damage result. Marines inside a landraider can neither contest nor capture objectives and obviously not shoot either.
As for your math, each attack has a 22% chance to penetrate and a 33% chance to take a hull point off - the result is a 37% chance to blow the landraider up right away(assuming six attacks), as well as half that chance to immobilize it. The chance to cause it to lose four or more hull points at once is a little higher than 10%, not counting multiple immobilizes. So while the warboss is the best tool to handle the landraider, he is not guaranteed to do so at all. Tank bustaz are almost guaranteed to take off a hull point each round of shooting, and the landraider is pretty much dead if they ever catch it in combat - tank hammers, PK and tankbusta bombs will see to that. Bitza bommers are only usefull in multiples, as they are missing any useful AP. On the other hand, they will almost never miss a landraider. If the landraider is giving you as much trouble as you're claiming, you should look into that.
So I'm still saying, simply ignore the landraider. If it's trying to dodge your deff rolla (which can move 18/19" per turn, too), it's not going to do any useful shooting. If he's trying to unload marines onto objectives during his last turn. Simply grab two and hope for turn six. Bring your warboss along and hope to catch it, but don't suicide him. Unless you bring a second warboss he is going to be your Warlord and thus worth a VP. Keep him with the main bulk of your army jump the landraider if it gets too close. Keep in mind that 6th no longer limits his movement, so he can do that 19" charge right out of a unit of boyz (though you're better off assuming a 17" charge). It's not that hard to outplay land raiders (especially if you manage to kill the rest of the army), no need to kill them.
This is what I get for typing too fast and not proof reading. I didn't mean that, vehicles could move 12" , shoot, and then go flat out. What I meant was the ability to move 12" and shoot, OR the ability to go flat out has really hurt deffrollas. I've seen games where a LR moved 12" and then POTMS a multimelta into side armor to blow up a Battlewagon. It's just harder to corral vehicles now in order to get the deff rolls to hit. I'm still not a fan of Tank bustaz. Their range is too short, and they can still be kited. And technically the Warboss, and Nobz that have bikes still have Waaagh!, however you're right that it only affects infantry models so the Waaagh rule is useless on them.
I don't know about the meta in your area, but in the games I've played, 2 different opponents have screened their armies behind Landraiders. So it's not something you can ignore, it's something I have to deal with quick. And the suicide Warboss would be a second Warboss, that would stay with my Bikerz until its time to go kill a landraider.
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Post by: MrMoustaffa
Ok a couple of questions about battlewagons that I can't quite figure out.
1, does red paintjob work for regular movement and the flat out? I.E. 13" movement phase, 7" flatout, or does it only affect the movement phase?
2. Can a battlewagon ram after moving flatout? I've been trying to find out but the rulebook is confusing me on it. I can't find anything that confirms or denies it. If you could, with RPJ, you could have a 20" ramming range, whcih would be amazing for orks
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Post by: davou
MrMoustaffa wrote:Ok a couple of questions about battlewagons that I can't quite figure out.
2. Can a battlewagon ram after moving flatout? I've been trying to find out but the rulebook is confusing me on it. I can't find anything that confirms or denies it. If you could, with RPJ, you could have a 20" ramming range, whcih would be amazing for orks
No, page 85, bottom right under 'Tank shock restrictions'
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Post by: Ascalam
RPJ is only in the movement phase, if i remember the wording on the rule right (could be wrong, happy to be so )
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Post by: sudojoe
thought you couldn't POTMS if you flat out now?
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Post by: Jidmah
The BloodAngel FAQ clarifies that PotMS still works while moving flat-out.
mrfantastical, tank bustaz cannot and could never be kited. It's kompletely up to them where they move, they are just restricted in picking their targets for shooting and assault.
As for the multi-melta to the side: It still has a 33.3% chance to miss, a 33.3% chance to get caught by the KFF and a 44.4% chance to do no more than take of a hull point, for a grand total of 24.7% to actually stop a battlewagon from driving straigth into it, assuming you did bring armor plates. And even if that happens, there should at least be one other battlewagon around to ram the landraider instead. Unless he is shooting from out of melta range, of course, in which case he is simply trying to get lucky.
More Dakka: The Waagh! rule itself has always given fleet to ork infantry models only, so no bikes, jump infantry or anything else.
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Post by: sudojoe
Jidmah wrote:The BloodAngel FAQ clarifies that PotMS still works while moving flat-out.
mrfantastical, tank bustaz cannot and could never be kited. It's kompletely up to them where they move, they are just restricted in picking their targets for shooting and assault.
As for the multi-melta to the side: It still has a 33.3% chance to miss, a 33.3% chance to get caught by the KFF and a 44.4% chance to do no more than take of a hull point, for a grand total of 24.7% to actually stop a battlewagon from driving straigth into it, assuming you did bring armor plates. And even if that happens, there should at least be one other battlewagon around to ram the landraider instead. Unless he is shooting from out of melta range, of course, in which case he is simply trying to get lucky.
More Dakka: The Waagh! rule itself has always given fleet to ork infantry models only, so no bikes, jump infantry or anything else.
wow nice, thanks for that. So I guess just the land raider can't use POTMS but the storm raven can? man, double standard. Shows what I know from just reading GK codex FAQ. That thing has so many ommissions and doesn't come close to what the BA one does.
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Post by: Jidmah
Rather than reading too much into that, I'd just assume that PotMS always allows you to shoot one weapon, even when turbo-boosting. When that particular question was written, Landraiders could not move Flat-Out yet.
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Post by: sudojoe
Jidmah wrote:Rather than reading too much into that, I'd just assume that PotMS always allows you to shoot one weapon, even when turbo-boosting. When that particular question was written, Landraiders could not move Flat-Out yet.
I just read the main rule book lines on PotMS and it seems to prohibit it, so only the BA storm ravens seem to have updated rules apparently. The GK one doesn't have that entry at all and the shadow skies entry is still stuck at only working if you flatout.
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Post by: Jidmah
Meh, another testament to GW not caring about rules at all then.
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Post by: Jag_Calle
Hmm.. Bern thinking about my orks today, and I got a thought , that I wanted to share with you:
With the kff no longer giving the killakans, and more usefully, the unit behind them a 4+ coversave, wouldn't we be better off taking another big gun unit to toss behind our ADL, rather than buying killakans?
Whilst for example Lobbas can't throw out as many blastplates as the grotzooka, the increased range should compensate that... And i think that a lobba unit, with all the extra grots, behind the ADL's coversave, and the big guns toughness, is a whole lot more survivable, compared to the 3 AV10 walkers with a 5++.. the boys the kans used to cover for, will still have their 5++ from the kff...
I already have a ADL with a quad gun in my list, so I won't cosider the points for it into this, as it assumes that you have an ADL, and intend to field it anyways.
What's your thoughts on this?
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Post by: Jidmah
Kanz are AV11, but otherwise pretty much agree with you.
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Post by: Anvildude
Though what's the difference in 'Difficulty to Krump' between AV11 and T7?
Also, Tankbustas, even if they could be Kited before, now have Glory Hogs! reduced so it only specifies they need to attack vehicles when possible- if something's out of range, they can run as normal now.
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Post by: Jag_Calle
Anvildude wrote:Though what's the difference in 'Difficulty to Krump' between AV11 and T7?
Just T7 and AV11? Not much.
With the big gunz behind an ADL and with maxed extra crew?
A Better coversave, the "15 unsaved wounds" required to knock them out...
//Calle
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Post by: matphat
Jag_Calle wrote:Hmm.. Bern thinking about my orks today, and I got a thought , that I wanted to share with you:
With the kff no longer giving the killakans, and more usefully, the unit behind them a 4+ coversave, wouldn't we be better off taking another big gun unit to toss behind our ADL, rather than buying killakans?
Whilst for example Lobbas can't throw out as many blastplates as the grotzooka, the increased range should compensate that... And i think that a lobba unit, with all the extra grots, behind the ADL's coversave, and the big guns toughness, is a whole lot more survivable, compared to the 3 AV10 walkers with a 5++.. the boys the kans used to cover for, will still have their 5++ from the kff...
I already have a ADL with a quad gun in my list, so I won't cosider the points for it into this, as it assumes that you have an ADL, and intend to field it anyways.
What's your thoughts on this?
Sadly, there isn't really any argument against your statement. I say "sadly" because I only got in 5 games with my fully painted Dredbash before 6th came out. Now I have 11 walkers that are more or less shelved for an entire edition. I say more or less because I'm still going to run them damnit. Even if I do lose every game a run them in. I'll do it with massive amount of style at least.
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Post by: Jag_Calle
I know the feeling Matphat.
I got 45 lovingly scratchbuilt kommandos, 6 koptas, 3 buggies, 1 dread all converted and in the process of getting painted.
I'm strugling to get the 45 kommandos to work as sluggaboys for my no nearly useless trukks, I've shelved 3 of the koptas (those with saw's), the buggies, snikrot, 3 kommandos from each unit and my lovely dread...
When we got this codex 2 editions ago, I had to shelf most of my deffskull list (lootas with SM guns, flashgits in eldar gear, tankbustas with tankparts as armour, bazookas.. Looted demolisher, tau piranha with rokkits and ork crew...
Ditched most of that infantry into breakfluid and re-modded into kommandos...
/Calle
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Though, I gotta say that 9 grotzookas would still scare the bejeesud out of me the turn they open up...
They might not be optimal, but a walker heavy list will still be tough to face... And alot depends on what else you bring, and your playstyle.
I've allways gone gorkamorka myself, and despise lootas (the way they are in this 'dex, grumble) and won't use 'em. Large shootaboy mob, 3 kans, a dread, 3 lobbas, 3 kannons as the anvill, 45 kommandos, 2 trukksquads, 3 buggies and 6 koptas as the hammer...
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Post by: MrMoustaffa
Jag_Calle wrote:I know the feeling Matphat.
I got 45 lovingly scratchbuilt kommandos, 6 koptas, 3 buggies, 1 dread all converted and in the process of getting painted.
I'm strugling to get the 45 kommandos to work as sluggaboys for my no nearly useless trukks, I've shelved 3 of the koptas (those with saw's), the buggies, snikrot, 3 kommandos from each unit and my lovely dread...
When we got this codex 2 editions ago, I had to shelf most of my deffskull list (lootas with SM guns, flashgits in eldar gear, tankbustas with tankparts as armour, bazookas.. Looted demolisher, tau piranha with rokkits and ork crew...
Ditched most of that infantry into breakfluid and re-modded into kommandos...
/Calle
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Though, I gotta say that 9 grotzookas would still scare the bejeesud out of me the turn they open up...
They might not be optimal, but a walker heavy list will still be tough to face... And alot depends on what else you bring, and your playstyle.
I've allways gone gorkamorka myself, and despise lootas (the way they are in this 'dex, grumble) and won't use 'em. Large shootaboy mob, 3 kans, a dread, 3 lobbas, 3 kannons as the anvill, 45 kommandos, 2 trukksquads, 3 buggies and 6 koptas as the hammer...
Why do you dislike the lootas as they are now? They're pretty good. Were they changed from the last 'dex a great deal or something or do they feel cheap to you? (new ork player here)
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Post by: Jag_Calle
I know they're dead good in this dex, and especially in this edition, but these new fanfled lootas aren't lootas to me...
They changed drasticly. In our old codex, you basicly choose a unit from a list, and got their weapons and upgrade weapons.
Then you could also loot 0-1 vehicles, and the only thing that was changed was that it got ork bs... And if it was less than 50pts, you could loot up to 3, with only spending one heavy slot...
//Calle
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Post by: Beer4TheBeerGod
Jag_Calle wrote:Hmm.. Bern thinking about my orks today, and I got a thought , that I wanted to share with you:
With the kff no longer giving the killakans, and more usefully, the unit behind them a 4+ coversave, wouldn't we be better off taking another big gun unit to toss behind our ADL, rather than buying killakans?
Whilst for example Lobbas can't throw out as many blastplates as the grotzooka, the increased range should compensate that... And i think that a lobba unit, with all the extra grots, behind the ADL's coversave, and the big guns toughness, is a whole lot more survivable, compared to the 3 AV10 walkers with a 5++.. the boys the kans used to cover for, will still have their 5++ from the kff...
I already have a ADL with a quad gun in my list, so I won't cosider the points for it into this, as it assumes that you have an ADL, and intend to field it anyways.
What's your thoughts on this?
Not to mention the lobbas let you snipe characters and special weapons.
I think the KFF is nice but certainly isn't mandatory like it was before. Killa kanz are largely dead to me thanks to hull points, the fact that walkers in assault are a lot weaker, and the decreased effectiveness of the obscured status. I think putting an artillery unit behind the ADL is a great way to man the turret and also provide some excellent firepower. I've been looking at the Zzap guns because of the prevalence of 2+ armor that I expect to see since Terminators got a huge boost.
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Post by: PipeAlley
Lobbas with 1 grot (with telescope) as a spotter with the rest of the guns and grots out of view seems like a pleasant notion. With the new rules, opponent's direct line-of-site fire can only kill the one visible model AND in the following Ork turn, a replacement spotter moving into position does not prevent the Lobbas from firing. I'll try it this week. Automatically Appended Next Post: Jag_Calle wrote:I know they're dead good in this dex, and especially in this edition, but these new fanfled lootas aren't lootas to me...
They changed drasticly. In our old codex, you basicly choose a unit from a list, and got their weapons and upgrade weapons.
Then you could also loot 0-1 vehicles, and the only thing that was changed was that it got ork bs... And if it was less than 50pts, you could loot up to 3, with only spending one heavy slot...
//Calle
Don't forget that Choppas used to limit armor saves to 4+ AND Burnas used to roll 2D6 for AP against vehicles in assault!!!
3-4th edition Orks used to be mainly Choppy, 5th edition gave us 50/50 Shooty/Choppy, and now in 6th, Orks have way more inclination to be 90% Shooty!!! What a weird world in which to live.
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Post by: Beer4TheBeerGod
There was also the Mob Up! rule which let you combine retreating boyz with units behind them to make larger and larger squads.
I'm not sold that Orks HAVE to be shooty. Slugga boyz seem to do really well in battlewagons, and that extra attack gives you the flexibility to do things like multi-charge weaker units.
52135
Post by: virx67
Beer4TheBeerGod wrote:There was also the Mob Up! rule which let you combine retreating boyz with units behind them to make larger and larger squads.
I'm not sold that Orks HAVE to be shooty. Slugga boyz seem to do really well in battlewagons, and that extra attack gives you the flexibility to do things like multi-charge weaker units.
Shooty is good, but I won't be running them due to the fact that I bought 120 AoBR boyz two or three months before 6th edition rumors came out. But, I feel like throwing a Lash prince and Chaos Space marines will be funny as allies. Lashing units into Slugga mobs will be hilarious. Or maybe having Shrike infiltrate some Hammernators up close to the enemies and DS some dreadnaughts in there. Plus Aegis defense lines will also help boost the survivabiltiy of orks in general. Besides the initiative change on charging didn't really hurt that much, as we were going last almost always.
21217
Post by: Jag_Calle
Not trying to turn this thread into nostalgia week, but darn how I miss the mob-up rule... It was so full of character.
On a more current note, as I think we've hashed through most of our stuff now.
How have you guys been utilising the "you get a second FOC at 2k, if you have 1 HQ, 2 troop bit?
Whilst I haven't made use of it myself yet, I gotta say that I feel less chained by the FOC now, weirdboys, and the SAG mek got more viable now, as it's not that hard, nor pointswise expensive for us to get 4 Troops.
Oh, and having the possibility of getting 18 kans and 4 Dreads in a 2k list, should make dreadstomp lists relatively viable, that's roughly 1400 pts with the bigmekks. (dreads as troops should fill the troop criteria). Even stompier, 4 bigmekks, 10 dreads...
Allies; I've considered getting some IG allies, but the whole allies idea makes me feel a bit... Dirty... Dunno why, as it's easily fluffed for me as I play blood axe, but still...*shudders* each time I've toyed with the idea of bringing my old looted demolisher out of retirement, it just feels like a waste having to pay nearly 200pts of guatdsmen just to be able to pay the 200 for the demolisher, and I feel I can spend those 400 pts on something better. Though it would be fun to use snikrot as a count as marbo.. My CSM will probably start out as allies to my orks, moving on to using my orks as allies for them. All as I build the Csm up.
From a non fluff perspective, what do you guys feel are the niches for our most likely allies to fill for us, what stiff would you get?
Me?
IG, for their master of ordnance, marbo, and some real tanks
CSM, Defiler, some plaguemarines. Objective holders/takers, and the defiler for the reaper autocannon and the battlecannon..
DE, Archaon, Incubi. To kill enemy HQs. Though mainly cause I love the models.
//Calle
37016
Post by: More Dakka
Once you get out of the real Ork list and into Allies it just doesn't feel right.
I'm totally down with buying some fortifications, and am looking forward to making the Orky version of the Aegis+Quad gun (Orkgis?) and the Bastion.
I played my first game a few weeks ago and found Nobz with a Warboss to by the big bullies of the game with LoS, Nob Bikers by extension are even better, just keep the WB up front and soak up EVERY shooting attack in the game until you zip into combat.
21217
Post by: Jag_Calle
Oh, and has anyone tried any of the fortifications, besides the ADL?
52054
Post by: MrMoustaffa
Model the guardsmen as grots. You can get spare lasguns off bits sites for relatively cheap, and grots are cheaper than guardsmen anyways. Maybe buy helmets and other little pieces of guard kit, and bam, gretchin platoon! Plus, kromlech makes an awesome ork commissar you could use for them.
Just make it clear to your opponent in some way which grots are ork grots and which ones are "guardsmen" and you'll be golden. There's your troop choice. From there, you could either take a primaris pysker and make him look like a wierdboy, take a lord commissar and use the kromlech model, or make a gretchin command squad (which would look awesome) I would love to play against an ork/ IG army done that way, but that may be because I plan on doing one myself
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Post by: virx67
Just looked up Look Out Sir!, and am I reading this right? If a nob takes an unsaved wound, another can take it instead? And if he fails, then another can check it? And another? Or can you only do that once per unsaved wound?
Either way, I think Nobz will be my next purchase.
36809
Post by: loota boy
virx67 wrote:Just looked up Look Out Sir!, and am I reading this right? If a nob takes an unsaved wound, another can take it instead? And if he fails, then another can check it? And another? Or can you only do that once per unsaved wound?
Either way, I think Nobz will be my next purchase.
I'm fairly sure it's just one 4+ look out sir! save.
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Post by: MrMoustaffa
We've been playing it as nob 1 either LOS! or takes his save. If he makes the LOS! the nob that takes the hit for him then rolls the save. If the nob fails the LOS!, then he has to make his save as normal.
At least, thats how it came across when I read the book. I know its very different than how a nob in a squad of boys would do LOS!
52135
Post by: virx67
So you the ideal loadout for a couple of nobz be ones with PK's (or whatever,) and then one or two with nothing but heavy armour? Then the ones in heavy armour LOS on the others?
21217
Post by: Jag_Calle
@mrmoustaffa: I considered something similar, but going down a more extreme route. Keeping the officers as human advisors, and using cadian guardsmen, with their faces dremmeled out and replaced with goblin/grot faces, legs shortened, ans torso shortened... But as I stated earlier, nearly 200pts of guardsmen, without a proper purpose, just to start getting the stuff I'll have use for...
Though, one could give 'em as many autocannons as possible though, to help with anti air/transports...
Hmm.., maybe a command squad, and a vet squad with a demo-charge to help discourage deepatrikers near my big-guns...
//Calle
52054
Post by: MrMoustaffa
Jag_Calle wrote:@mrmoustaffa: I considered something similar, but going down a more extreme route. Keeping the officers as human advisors, and using cadian guardsmen, with their faces dremmeled out and replaced with goblin/grot faces, legs shortened, ans torso shortened... But as I stated earlier, nearly 200pts of guardsmen, without a proper purpose, just to start getting the stuff I'll have use for...
Though, one could give 'em as many autocannons as possible though, to help with anti air/transports...
Hmm.., maybe a command squad, and a vet squad with a demo-charge to help discourage deepatrikers near my big-guns...
//Calle
Could get a flier, make those grots a vet squad, give em shotguns, meltas, and demo doctrine, and make em grot kommandos. Then you'd have an airborne attack unit in your army that would look hilarious and be very useful. Maybe even run some stormtrooper grots as well to back them up.
Otherwise, I'd just use them as a tougher version of grots that can actually shoot at things far away, and camp an objective with them. The PCS you can do all kinds of crazy things with depending on your list as well.
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Post by: sirlynchmob
virx67 wrote:So you the ideal loadout for a couple of nobz be ones with PK's (or whatever,) and then one or two with nothing but heavy armour? Then the ones in heavy armour LOS on the others?
And the pain boy for FNP.
I did this with Ghaz, 9 nobz and a painboy. I lead with Ghaz so for every wound you roll LOS passing to a unwounded nob, take armor save, make FNP roll. Should he fail to pass the wound he'd get his 2+ save. Its lots of rolling and really slows down the game, but it works a whole lot better than the old wound allocations ever did.
36940
Post by: Anvildude
@BeerGod- also, Zzap guns still do the 'Auto-Shaken' thing, even on Glances, which means they're one of the best ways to keep vehicles inneffectual, since every hit, Glancing and up, will at the very least keep the enemy vehicle from shooting normally.
39309
Post by: Jidmah
Beer4TheBeerGod wrote:There was also the Mob Up! rule which let you combine retreating boyz with units behind them to make larger and larger squads.
I'm not sold that Orks HAVE to be shooty. Slugga boyz seem to do really well in battlewagons, and that extra attack gives you the flexibility to do things like multi-charge weaker units.
Actually, it doesn't. When multi-charging you lose both your bonus attack and one point of strength. Unless you're charging gretchin or ratlings, you basically allowed your opponent to charge you without overwatch fire.
Jag_Calle wrote:Not trying to turn this thread into nostalgia week, but darn how I miss the mob-up rule... It was so full of character.
On a more current note, as I think we've hashed through most of our stuff now.
How have you guys been utilising the "you get a second FOC at 2k, if you have 1 HQ, 2 troop bit?
Whilst I haven't made use of it myself yet, I gotta say that I feel less chained by the FOC now, weirdboys, and the SAG mek got more viable now, as it's not that hard, nor pointswise expensive for us to get 4 Troops.
Oh, and having the possibility of getting 18 kans and 4 Dreads in a 2k list, should make dreadstomp lists relatively viable, that's roughly 1400 pts with the bigmekks. (dreads as troops should fill the troop criteria). Even stompier, 4 bigmekks, 10 dreads...
I really enjoy not being forced to take nobz for my fourth(and fifth!) battlewagon. The battlewagons full of boyz accompanied by a burna and a loota wagon provides you with much higher model counts than the 5th edition battlewagon bash ever could.
sirlynchmob wrote:virx67 wrote:So you the ideal loadout for a couple of nobz be ones with PK's (or whatever,) and then one or two with nothing but heavy armour? Then the ones in heavy armour LOS on the others?
And the pain boy for FNP.
I did this with Ghaz, 9 nobz and a painboy. I lead with Ghaz so for every wound you roll LOS passing to a unwounded nob, take armor save, make FNP roll. Should he fail to pass the wound he'd get his 2+ save. Its lots of rolling and really slows down the game, but it works a whole lot better than the old wound allocations ever did.
That's a 500 point unit that will overkill anything three or four times over. Unless they simply get shot to pieces by flanking/deepstriking units or particularly nasty psychic powers. If you want to do that kind of shenanigans, use a regular MA warboss and some MANz behind him, but don't sink 25-33% of your points in a single unit.
Anvildude wrote:@BeerGod- also, Zzap guns still do the 'Auto-Shaken' thing, even on Glances, which means they're one of the best ways to keep vehicles inneffectual, since every hit, Glancing and up, will at the very least keep the enemy vehicle from shooting normally.
Considering their low chance to actually glance anything (they still suffer from not being "true" 3d6), you'll probably be better off just using the cheaper kannons to wreck the enemy vehicle right away.
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Post by: Dribble Joy
Jag_Calle wrote:Allies; I've considered getting some IG allies, but the whole allies idea makes me feel a bit... Dirty... Dunno why, as it's easily fluffed for me as I play blood axe, but still...*shudders* each time I've toyed with the idea of bringing my old looted demolisher out of retirement, it just feels like a waste having to pay nearly 200pts of guatdsmen just to be able to pay the 200 for the demolisher, and I feel I can spend those 400 pts on something better.
Shouldn't be that much I would have thought. Min vet squad and HQ can't be much.
From a non fluff perspective, what do you guys feel are the niches for our most likely allies to fill for us, what stiff would you get?
Guard: Ranged AT, decent dakka on vehicles.
CSM: Oblits, MCs.
Tau: Ranged AT, this is where I'll be going.
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Post by: Graphite
So... with the new Slow and Purposeful, it should be possible to team up a Warboss in mega armour or Meganobz with a Shokk Attack Gun and have it move and fire.
Can anyone think of a use for this?
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Post by: Dribble Joy
Yup, has come up earlier in the thread.
Megamek + Lootas
Meganobs + SAG
Etc.
Put them in a wagon and fire at full BS at Combat Speed (firing out of a transport at Cruising is always Snap Shot, SnP or not).
55408
Post by: Graphite
'k, missed that (only saw the tread a few days ago and haven't gone though the full 37 pages) - thanks!
Have to work out if it's something I'd find worth doing, mind you.
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Post by: Dribble Joy
Graphite wrote:Have to work out if it's something I'd find worth doing, mind you.
Exactly. While the idea of having the ability to move and fire with a unit of lootas seems appealing, what does it really bring that's of real use?
Lootas have the range to generally not need to re-position and 6" isn't going to change fire arcs from their usual support location that much.
Putting them in a wagon might be an idea, but then the wagon's moving quite slowly compared to the rest of the force.
You're also 'wasting' either the ability to have a KFF or SAG in the unit or a megaboss stuck at the back when he should be up front hitting things.
Meganobs too are a front line unit, do you want a SAG that close to the enemy?
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Post by: sirlynchmob
Dribble Joy wrote:Graphite wrote:Have to work out if it's something I'd find worth doing, mind you.
Exactly. While the idea of having the ability to move and fire with a unit of lootas seems appealing, what does it really bring that's of real use?
Lootas have the range to generally not need to re-position and 6" isn't going to change fire arcs from their usual support location that much.
Putting them in a wagon might be an idea, but then the wagon's moving quite slowly compared to the rest of the force.
You're also 'wasting' either the ability to have a KFF or SAG in the unit or a megaboss stuck at the back when he should be up front hitting things.
Meganobs too are a front line unit, do you want a SAG that close to the enemy?
I still camp lootas, put them in any building I can and leave them there. the only reason I would move them is if I was going to be shooting at a flier and just wanted to move a few models around to make sure everyone had a shot. As in this case moving does not hinder my shooting anyways. Or even if they had the shots anyways, it gives me a chance to move them a bit for the next turns shots.
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Post by: DA KURGAN
More Dakka wrote:
I'm totally down with buying some fortifications, and am looking forward to making the Orky version of the Aegis+Quad gun (Orkgis?) and the Bastion.
Already ahead of ya with the AE-GORK DEFENS LINE
(work in progress, just using the ork barricades for the "line")
Made entirely with spare bits from the ork bommer kit
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Post by: sirlynchmob
Jidmah wrote:
sirlynchmob wrote:
I did this with Ghaz, 9 nobz and a painboy. I lead with Ghaz so for every wound you roll LOS passing to a unwounded nob, take armor save, make FNP roll. Should he fail to pass the wound he'd get his 2+ save. Its lots of rolling and really slows down the game, but it works a whole lot better than the old wound allocations ever did.
That's a 500 point unit that will overkill anything three or four times over. Unless they simply get shot to pieces by flanking/deepstriking units or particularly nasty psychic powers. If you want to do that kind of shenanigans, use a regular MA warboss and some MANz behind him, but don't sink 25-33% of your points in a single unit.
That is true, I wanted to play around with the LOS rules, and challenges in assaults. With the wagon it was closer to 1/2 my points at 1500, but then at the last minute we upped it to 1850. They survived taking the fire of his entire vallia marines army, a forge world flier, a smaller flier, and 2 land raiders, a rhino, and some other troops. They then went on to get rid of both land raiders and a rhino. so they earned their points back. I now want to get the nob biker squads as I'm thinking those should work even better. I'm thinking 2 nob squads with warbosses on bikes.
I was disappointed in the battle wagons though, Lost both the first turn. but that was purely luck on his side, one to a pen and explosion during shooting, then he sent in 5 termies with hammers into my burna wagon, I did 25 wounds, he made 25 saves.
for clarity, round 1 he takes out both wagons, round 2 he unloads everything into the nobs, round 3 & 4 I take out all his tanks and he concedes.
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Post by: Ascalam
DA KURGAN wrote:More Dakka wrote:
I'm totally down with buying some fortifications, and am looking forward to making the Orky version of the Aegis+Quad gun (Orkgis?) and the Bastion.
Already ahead of ya with the AE-GORK DEFENS LINE
(work in progress, just using the ork barricades for the "line")
Made entirely with spare bits from the ork bommer kit
and THIS is why orks are awesome
well, one of many reasons why...
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Post by: matphat
Just to mirror a lot of other comments on allies, I too was really skeptical about ever taking any, as it made my feel "dirty" too.
Then, like a lot of the others here have mentioned, I realised that Orks have the very best of fluff reasons to take any frakin allies they want. Looting other armies, and really modeling them up well to appear to be looted is just the biggest gold mine ever for orks. I have about 100 ideas already for how it would work.
My first project is already sprung to life in my head. Now I just need to get the Tau it requires to do so.
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Post by: Clang
Strongly considering some Tau Allies, e.g. broadsides, for the long range shootyness the orks don't have.
Fluffwise though, I agree that simply including tau models in an ork army feels wrong - instead, I'll be modelling them as ork walkers with looted tau weapons
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Post by: mrfantastical
sirlynchmob wrote:Dribble Joy wrote:Graphite wrote:Have to work out if it's something I'd find worth doing, mind you.
Exactly. While the idea of having the ability to move and fire with a unit of lootas seems appealing, what does it really bring that's of real use?
Lootas have the range to generally not need to re-position and 6" isn't going to change fire arcs from their usual support location that much.
Putting them in a wagon might be an idea, but then the wagon's moving quite slowly compared to the rest of the force.
You're also 'wasting' either the ability to have a KFF or SAG in the unit or a megaboss stuck at the back when he should be up front hitting things.
Meganobs too are a front line unit, do you want a SAG that close to the enemy?
I still camp lootas, put them in any building I can and leave them there. the only reason I would move them is if I was going to be shooting at a flier and just wanted to move a few models around to make sure everyone had a shot. As in this case moving does not hinder my shooting anyways. Or even if they had the shots anyways, it gives me a chance to move them a bit for the next turns shots.
I've played several games with the Loota Wagon and it has been the MVP of all my games because:
1) you get 12" move and fire which is amazing (60" threat range)
2) you can fire from any point on the hull ( example park behind a ruin with only a small part of the front of the vehicle visible, and fire with all 15 lootas)
3) More survivability with the Lootas
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Post by: Dribble Joy
Oh, the Loota wagon itself is a good idea, it's just that it doesn't need a SnP IC to make it work; in fact it's downright detrimental to the concept in general.
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Post by: loki old fart
MrMoustaffa wrote:Model the guardsmen as grots. You can get spare lasguns off bits sites for relatively cheap, and grots are cheaper than guardsmen anyways. Maybe buy helmets and other little pieces of guard kit, and bam, gretchin platoon! Plus, kromlech makes an awesome ork commissar you could use for them. http://kromlech.eu/?p=657
Just make it clear to your opponent in some way which grots are ork grots and which ones are "guardsmen" and you'll be golden. There's your troop choice. From there, you could either take a primaris pysker and make him look like a wierdboy, take a lord commissar and use the kromlech model, or make a gretchin command squad (which would look awesome) I would love to play against an ork/ IG army done that way, but that may be because I plan on doing one myself
I got a javaScript Obfuscation report off that link
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Post by: mondry
I've been thinking about trying kannons, does anyone have any ideas about what I could use to proxy them in? I want to use 3 squads of 3, so 9 total but that's way too expensive to buy without testing to see if I even like them! With the buff to toughness and being less dependent on battlewagons taking up the heavy support slots I feel like there may be a place for them in some lists. Anyone making good use of them in 6th?
36809
Post by: loota boy
mondry wrote:I've been thinking about trying kannons, does anyone have any ideas about what I could use to proxy them in? I want to use 3 squads of 3, so 9 total but that's way too expensive to buy without testing to see if I even like them! With the buff to toughness and being less dependent on battlewagons taking up the heavy support slots I feel like there may be a place for them in some lists. Anyone making good use of them in 6th?
Kannons are arguably some of the easiest things to convert in the ork codex. All you really need is a pen or marker and some plastic card, or even cardboard. Find something for the wheels, and you're done. Just put on the wheels, use a doctored-up marker cap as the barrel, and cover it in scrap and rivets. After that, all you need is grots!
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Post by: Leth
I was thinking of running a battlewagon with cannon and a unit of lootas inside with one mek(to try and repair) that sits in my deployment zone unloading on stuff.
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Post by: AresX8
Holy crap Jidmah, you're so right. We can ignore Nobs for the 4th Wagon. Double FOC, oh yeah!
I came up with this list with that in mind:
KFF - 85
Mega Armor 'Boss, Attack Squig, Cybork - 125
6 Lootas - 90
6 Lootas - 90
6 Lootas - 90
10 Grots with Runtherd - 40
18 Shootas with 1 Big Shoota; Nob PK BP - 159
19 Shootas with 1 Big Shoota; Nob PK BP - 165
19 Shootas with 1 Big Shoota; Nob PK BP - 165
20 Shootas with 1 Big Shoota; Nob PK BP - 171
Dakkajet with extra Supa Shoota and Fighta Ace - 130
Dakkajet with extra Supa Shoota and Fighta Ace - 130
Battlewagon with Deff Rolla, RPJ, Grot Riggers, Armor Plates, Big Shoota and Boarding Plank - 140
Battlewagon with Deff Rolla, RPJ, Grot Riggers, Armor Plates, Big Shoota and Boarding Plank - 140
Battlewagon with Deff Rolla, RPJ, Grot Riggers, Armor Plates, Big Shoota and Boarding Plank - 140
Battlewagon with Deff Rolla, RPJ, Grot Riggers, Armor Plates, Big Shoota and Boarding Plank - 140
2000 points
112 models, I like the sound of that.
EDIT: Need to find one point.
EDIT 2: Got it.
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Post by: MrMoustaffa
loki old fart wrote:MrMoustaffa wrote:Model the guardsmen as grots. You can get spare lasguns off bits sites for relatively cheap, and grots are cheaper than guardsmen anyways. Maybe buy helmets and other little pieces of guard kit, and bam, gretchin platoon! Plus, kromlech makes an awesome ork commissar you could use for them. http://kromlech.eu/?p=657
Just make it clear to your opponent in some way which grots are ork grots and which ones are "guardsmen" and you'll be golden. There's your troop choice. From there, you could either take a primaris pysker and make him look like a wierdboy, take a lord commissar and use the kromlech model, or make a gretchin command squad (which would look awesome) I would love to play against an ork/ IG army done that way, but that may be because I plan on doing one myself
I got a javaScript Obfuscation report off that link
That's wierd, my computer didn't notice anything. I'll disable the link just to be safe though.
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Post by: valminder
Anvildude wrote: plus Choppa and Slugga, meaning they have an extra attack.
In my Codex they only have Choppa, no slugga, so no extra attack.
8520
Post by: Leth
matphat wrote:Just to mirror a lot of other comments on allies, I too was really skeptical about ever taking any, as it made my feel "dirty" too.
Then, like a lot of the others here have mentioned, I realised that Orks have the very best of fluff reasons to take any frakin allies they want. Looting other armies, and really modeling them up well to appear to be looted is just the biggest gold mine ever for orks. I have about 100 ideas already for how it would work.
My first project is already sprung to life in my head. Now I just need to get the Tau it requires to do so.
Heck there was even that story in the ork codex of the ork commander that raided a few tau armories
47616
Post by: Orkaswampa
in the current codex there is a story of a speed freak mob raiding tau, and perhaps towards the end a few tau surrendered and the orks thought hey...these tanks are fast! :O we'll take em! and hence the team was formed....tau being abused by gretchin inside hammerheads
52135
Post by: virx67
valminder wrote:Anvildude wrote: plus Choppa and Slugga, meaning they have an extra attack.
In my Codex they only have Choppa, no slugga, so no extra attack.
They have pistols, which gives us an extra attack in assaults. Pg. 100 of the Ork codex tells you the wargear, which is Slugga and Choppa. Also, why the hell are Orks allies with Imperial Guard? You'd think Armageddon would have taught them a thing or two...
36809
Post by: loota boy
virx67 wrote:valminder wrote:Anvildude wrote: plus Choppa and Slugga, meaning they have an extra attack.
In my Codex they only have Choppa, no slugga, so no extra attack.
They have pistols, which gives us an extra attack in assaults. Pg. 100 of the Ork codex tells you the wargear, which is Slugga and Choppa. Also, why the hell are Orks allies with Imperial Guard? You'd think Armageddon would have taught them a thing or two...
It'll be fun taking ghazzy with Yarrick as an ally.
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Post by: PipeAlley
I think the worst ally fluff-wise for Orks are Necrons. In both previous codices for Orks and Necrons it's mentioned that the Orks were genetically engineered specifically to fight the Necrons by the Old Ones. The Necrons were able to defeat the technologically advandnced but few-in-number Old Ones and their Eldar allies. But the Orks were created as being so alien and numerous to the Necron way of thinking, they were what turned the tide against the Necrons. Then they got out of hand in turn and spread across the galaxy like a virus escaping the lab.
Anywho, that was before the most recent Necron Codex so I guess it doesn't matter anyways.
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Post by: Ascalam
virx67 wrote:valminder wrote:Anvildude wrote: plus Choppa and Slugga, meaning they have an extra attack.
In my Codex they only have Choppa, no slugga, so no extra attack.
They have pistols, which gives us an extra attack in assaults. Pg. 100 of the Ork codex tells you the wargear, which is Slugga and Choppa. Also, why the hell are Orks allies with Imperial Guard? You'd think Armageddon would have taught them a thing or two...
The IOM is notoriously slow to learn
Also Bloodaxe Orks have been hiring out as Mercs to the IOM since forever
Some of the combos are a bit out of whack, if seen from a certain angle. DE and Mono-Slaanesh, for example.
One i noticed IIRC is that DE and BA are absolute nono's. Probably because they'd get in arguments over who was prettier..
DE and SW can work together though, despite the DE fiddling with their acolytes in dark rooms..
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Post by: Orkaswampa
Just take an ethereal, and kill him with impact tests at start of game - Key to crushing tau (ethereal death affects all tau on board, not kroot so take 10 of those, you're looking at 120 point screw tau.)
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Post by: Jag_Calle
Hmm.. just came up with an idea on how to get some mileage out of my now fairly pointless Koptas, with the added bonus that it might help my kommandos see play;
Warkoptas (IA8 and IAapocalypse 2nd ed), and they so nicely said on their Facebook (forgeworld that is) that it's Fast attack, 1-3, or [b]dedicated transport for kommandos[/b]...
Take kopta, slash it up, add a trukk passenger compartment, add a second engine and rotor, some wings with dakkaguns and et voila.
Do you think taking a warkopta as a dedicated transport for 10 kommandos might give 'em the extra "umph" the lack?
Or are you still better off calling the kommandos slugga boys and either tossing 'em in a trukk, or more prefferebly a BW?
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Post by: kaiservonhugal
I think Kammandos are still useful. In a footslogging list there are limited ways to contest OBJ's. One thing that really hurts these list is that a unit can only contest/claim a single OBJ. Five out of six games played will be OBJ based. The old tactic of combining Snikrot's units with an IC still works. Yes, youre exposed for a turn. If you put pressure on from both sides and tank with Snikrot's units, I think you have a valid way to contest hard-to-reach OBJ's
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Post by: KingCracker
mondry wrote:I've been thinking about trying kannons, does anyone have any ideas about what I could use to proxy them in? I want to use 3 squads of 3, so 9 total but that's way too expensive to buy without testing to see if I even like them! With the buff to toughness and being less dependent on battlewagons taking up the heavy support slots I feel like there may be a place for them in some lists. Anyone making good use of them in 6th?
Yea they are easy as all get out to build. Heres the only shot I have of one.
See, ink pen tubes and wheels from something. You can make them even more basic and leave the wheels off if you wanted to, just prop the front up with some sprue.
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Post by: kaiservonhugal
Here are some I put together from extra trukk bits and some tubing.
1
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Post by: Beer4TheBeerGod
Jidmah wrote:Beer4TheBeerGod wrote:There was also the Mob Up! rule which let you combine retreating boyz with units behind them to make larger and larger squads.
I'm not sold that Orks HAVE to be shooty. Slugga boyz seem to do really well in battlewagons, and that extra attack gives you the flexibility to do things like multi-charge weaker units.
Actually, it doesn't. When multi-charging you lose both your bonus attack and one point of strength. Unless you're charging gretchin or ratlings, you basically allowed your opponent to charge you without overwatch fire.
Yes you lose the bonus attack and point of strength. That's the price you pay for getting engaged with multiple units. But there are many situations where that's a good thing, particularly if you know you'll be able to annihilate one unit and want to stay engaged through the enemy's turn. And since slugga boyz have an extra attack you will do much better when it comes to the 2nd or 3rd round of combat. Let's look at the math: A shoota boy getting charged will get off 2 shots, which averages to 0.33 hits. That slugga boy getting an extra attack will average to 0.5 hits assuming equal WS. Taking into account the difference in strength the two are pretty much the same in terms of wounds caused. On the other hand you've prevented your opponent from getting their charge bonus at the expense of taking overwatch.
The point here is that slugga boyz are better for diving into assaults and tying up as many enemy units as possible. In the case of slugga boyz that's the approach I prefer. For footsloggers who have a better chance of not being in charge range I prefer giving them shootas. They're more flexible. But if I'm going to take a horde of angry orks and plow them into the enemy I want as many attacks as possible.
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Post by: KingCracker
I could be wrong, but Im pretty sure your doing your figuring wrong there. Shoota boyz get 2 18 inch shots, sluggas only get 1@ 12inches. So while charging a unit, a 30boyz mob with no upgrades gets 60 shots before charging, and since they are within charge range, every boy will get his shots. Then you take out the few that will eat it from over watch. Sluggas will only get 30 shots. So sluggas would get roughly 10 hits, while the shootas will get roughly 20. So sluggas would average roughly 5 wounds and maybe 1 or 2 would fail assuming your assaulting a SM squad. Where as the shootas would get double that, so 3 or 4?, now we are talking about some hurting on SpaceMarines, and this is before assaults.
NOW you can start doing your assault numbers. Your examp[le didnt really make sense, as you were talking about shootas shooting, and then jumping right to sluggas assaulting. Besides, shootas STILL get 3 attacks each. So lets say during over watch you loose 5 boyz.
Sluggas - 25
Shootas - 25
attacks each
Sluggas - 100 attacks
Shootas - 75 attacks.
hits and wounds (against space marines)
Sluggas - roughly 50 hits and roughly 25 wounds
Shootas - roughly 38 hits and roughly 19 wounds
Then take saves. So yea the sluggas would seem to be a little better on charge, but the shootas are much better in shooting, meaning there is fewer attacks AND over watch shots hitting your boyz before charging in. Not to mention its widely agreed on that shootas are more versatile then sluggas mainly because they can sit on objectives and piss out bullets, or tie up tough units just as easy as the other. For my money, unless taking trukk boyz, Id still go shootas hands down.
*I cant spell
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Post by: CT GAMER
PipeAlley wrote:I think the worst ally fluff-wise for Orks are Necrons. In both previous codices for Orks and Necrons it's mentioned that the Orks were genetically engineered specifically to fight the Necrons by the Old Ones. The Necrons were able to defeat the technologically advandnced but few-in-number Old Ones and their Eldar allies. But the Orks were created as being so alien and numerous to the Necron way of thinking, they were what turned the tide against the Necrons. Then they got out of hand in turn and spread across the galaxy like a virus escaping the lab.
Anywho, that was before the most recent Necron Codex so I guess it doesn't matter anyways.
The structure of the allies matrix has really made any sort of logical application of allies (from a fluff/assumed common sense angle) a moot point.
It is so wide open that it is left to players to make logical and fluffy allies when they design their armies, and we know how that usually goes...
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Post by: Beer4TheBeerGod
KingCracker wrote:I could be wrong, but Im pretty sure your doing your figuring wrong there. Shoota boyz get 2 18 inch shots, sluggas only get 1@ 12inches. So while charging a unit, a 30boyz mob with no upgrades gets 60 shots before charging, and since they are within charge range, every boy will get his shots. Then you take out the few that will eat it from over watch. Sluggas will only get 30 shots. So sluggas would get roughly 10 hits, while the shootas will get roughly 20. So sluggas would average roughly 5 wounds and maybe 1 or 2 would fail assuming your assaulting a SM squad. Where as the shootas would get double that, so 3 or 4?, now we are talking about some hurting on SpaceMarines, and this is before assaults.
NOW you can start doing your assault numbers. Your example didnt really make sense, as you were talking about shootas shooting, and then jumping right to sluggas assaulting. Besides, shootas STILL get 3 attacks each. So lets say during over watch you loose 5 boyz.
...
Then take saves. So yea the sluggas would seem to be a little better on charge, but the shootas are much better in shooting, meaning there is fewer attacks AND over watch shots hitting your boyz before charging in. Not to mention its widely agreed on that shootas are more versatile then sluggas mainly because they can sit on objectives and piss out bullets, or tie up tough units just as easy as the other. For my money, unless taking trukk boyz, Id still go shootas hands down.
My number crunching was in response to the allegation that "multi-charging basically lets the enemy charge you for free without overwatch." So I was specifically comparing the situation of a mob of shoota boyz being charged and getting overwatch versus a mob of slugga boyz getting charged and getting an extra attack in. That is the kind of situation that I would most likely expect to encounter after a mob of battlewagon boyz charged in, annihilated a unit, and is targeted for a reprisal from the opponent. I agree that shootas are more flexible and, when shooting is taken into account, are capable of doing more damage. However given the capricious and unpredictable nature of random charge I would not want to risk losing the charge in pursuit of a few casualties. Especially since those casualties would apply towards my active turn, and if I can help it at all I would want combat to last through to my opponent's turn.
So let's be clear about my position. If your boyz are on foot, then they should have shootas and be in maximum sized squads. If your boyz are mounted, and your goal is to get them into assault, then they should have sluggas.
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Post by: KingCracker
Ahh that does make a bit more sense. Though Id change your argument to accepting shootas in BW as well. 20 Shoota boyz is still better then sluggas hands down.
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Post by: Bonde
Sorry if this has already been discussed, but I posted this in the other Ork tactics thread, and noticed that it was this thread that was active instead
Original post:
I know that slugga boys took a big hit this edition, but I'm hell bent on getting them to work anyway!
I have a chance though: I play in a private club, so we make our own rule amendments to avoid internet spam lists (also no allies) in our gaming environment. This forces the players to make use of less common units, which makes for more diverse and interesting games where people have to exploit the weaknesses of the opponents army while not letting him exploit his own weaknesses.
I was slowly building an Ork army in the end of 5th and some of the first units I assembled and painted was a trukk, 10 slugga boys and a PK Nob. The Trukk + boys unit was intended as a delivery system for an Ork Warboss, and I just wanted to ask you if this is still a somewhat viable way to run sluggas and a Warboss in 6th edition.
The idea was that the Boys take some bolter rounds to the face after disembarking, and the Warboss give them some much needed LD and close combat punch in return. On the trukk I have a ram, RPJ and a boarding plank so the warboss can get some hits in on a vehicle if he gets the chance without needing to disembark.
I planned to run another Trukk with slugga boys in the 1000pts list, a shooty battlewagon with shoota boys (and a big mek perhaps) with some rokkit deffcoptas and rokkit buggies as fast attack. Later on I plan to add another BW made for assault carrying a Nob squad, a Boomwagon and a Bommer of some sort.
The idea behind the army is to weaken parts of the enemy army with shooting and then make a focused assault on the weakened units while shooting the intact units left on the board.
The only other army I have is a hybrid IG list, so I started the Ork army because I wanted a faster, more close combat oriented army, but still with some shooting, although on faster platforms. What do you guys think? I really just want to get something semi useful out of the models that I have already bought and painted, as I don't have many Orks or a lot of time to paint in.
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Post by: Anvildude
If you're in a private club, and you're still building the army, I'd like to take this chance to advise you to model and try out Wrekkin' Balls and Grabbin' Klaws on at least some of your vehicles- They have interesting utility against Flyers (rules are debatable, but pure As Written, they should work awesomely, if only at extremely short range) and if you're in an environment that encourages "odd" builds, they add cheap versatility and use to your list- the Grabbin' Klaw, especially, could be great on the assault Wagon, and mounting your Trukks with Wrekkin' Balls gives you a bunch of cheap Str 9 shots.
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Post by: Frecklesonfire
Orks suck in 6th, their shooting is terrible as always, and in assault they blow... lootas are still amazing, but they are so easy to pin.. and orks at I2 are a joke, i had 10 nobz with a boss get a charge on Calgar and honour guard, i lost combat by one wound, we take the initiative test for his sweeping advance, and since orks I2 i lost horribly.. i instantly lost 9 nobz and a unscathed warboss... Initiative 2 is a joke, assault phase in general is bad in 6th..
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Post by: Bonde
I'm pretty sure that you use the highest I in the unit, including IC's, so you should have done the test on your Warbosses initiative.
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Post by: Jidmah
Beer4TheBeerGod wrote:Yes you lose the bonus attack and point of strength. That's the price you pay for getting engaged with multiple units. But there are many situations where that's a good thing, particularly if you know you'll be able to annihilate one unit and want to stay engaged through the enemy's turn. And since slugga boyz have an extra attack you will do much better when it comes to the 2nd or 3rd round of combat.
Wait, what? First of all, losing that point of strength and the attack is a steep price. Assuming 20 slugga boyz, you kill three instead of six marines if multi-charging or 13 instead of 23 guardsmen. Not to mention the second unit shooting overwatch and striking you in close combat, twice, as well. Unless you are in danger of takeing multiple direct hits from a manticore, multi-charges are both suicide and a waste of offensive power. If you can pull them off in the first place - it's not as easy as in 5th anymore. And, if anything, extra attacks do not help staying stuck in combat.
Let's look at the math: A shoota boy getting charged will get off 2 shots, which averages to 0.33 hits. That slugga boy getting an extra attack will average to 0.5 hits assuming equal WS. Taking into account the difference in strength the two are pretty much the same in terms of wounds caused. On the other hand you've prevented your opponent from getting their charge bonus at the expense of taking overwatch.
You're missing one essential thing: Shoota boyz get to shoot before the enemy strikes, slugga boyz get their extra attack after they strike. A unit of 9 tactical marines(one shot dead by sluggas) will kill about four boyz (close combat+overwatch), making you lose 16 attacks, before you even strike. If the mob was 20 strong, average total amount of dead marines is 6.5.
The same mob as shoota boyz, kills two marines by shooting, lose only three boyz by overwatch and melee, for a total of 6.5 dead marines as well. The difference? Shoota boyz have one more ork left, and they could have shot the marines during the turn before they charged, since they have 18" range.
Now, assuming two units of boring marines (no fancy stuff like veterans or terminators), bolters only:
20 Sluggas: Shoot 1 marine dead, lose 3 to overwatch, lose 4 to close combat, kill 2 marines in melee. They lose combat next turn and will most likely get run down.
20 Shootas: Shoot 2 marines dead, lose 3 to overwatch, lose 4 to close combat, kill 2 marines in melee. They lose combat next turn and will most likely get run down as well.
So Sluggas in battlewagons still shouldn't multi-assault. Neither should 30 sluggas that lost more than 7 members while running across the board. Or units which can't get all their boyz in combat. So unless all the stars align, even weak units like tactical marines will beat you when you multi-assault them. Even mobs of 30 with a PK will take less casualties if they charge and annihilate the first unit of marines and then receive the charge and shooting of the second unit. In which case shoota boyz are better again, due to being able to twice as much overwatch.
The point here is that slugga boyz are better for diving into assaults and tying up as many enemy units as possible. In the case of slugga boyz that's the approach I prefer. For footsloggers who have a better chance of not being in charge range I prefer giving them shootas. They're more flexible. But if I'm going to take a horde of angry orks and plow them into the enemy I want as many attacks as possible.
A rock is also better for cracking tanks than a banana. They still aren't good. Multi-assaults are terrible for all kinds boyz, if your only argument is them being better in multi-assaults, then that's absolutely not worth it. Automatically Appended Next Post: Bonde wrote:I'm pretty sure that you use the highest I in the unit, including IC's, so you should have done the test on your Warbosses initiative.
That's correct.
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Post by: Obrac
Frecklesonfire wrote:Orks suck in 6th, their shooting is terrible as always, and in assault they blow... lootas are still amazing, but they are so easy to pin.. and orks at I2 are a joke, i had 10 nobz with a boss get a charge on Calgar and honour guard, i lost combat by one wound, we take the initiative test for his sweeping advance, and since orks I2 i lost horribly.. i instantly lost 9 nobz and a unscathed warboss... Initiative 2 is a joke, assault phase in general is bad in 6th..
Nobz have 3 ini and warboss has 4 ini.
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Post by: KingCracker
Frecklesonfire wrote:Orks suck in 6th, their shooting is terrible as always, and in assault they blow... lootas are still amazing, but they are so easy to pin.. and orks at I2 are a joke, i had 10 nobz with a boss get a charge on Calgar and honour guard, i lost combat by one wound, we take the initiative test for his sweeping advance, and since orks I2 i lost horribly.. i instantly lost 9 nobz and a unscathed warboss... Initiative 2 is a joke, assault phase in general is bad in 6th..
So you used the wrong stats, and had a bad roll AND tried assaulting a Calgar lead unit with Nobz and are whining about losing them? Riiiiiiiiiight. Im going to say stop using the wrong stats, the wrong rules and assault something like Calgar with Nobz and you should be in good shape. Orks are awesome in 6th, so far, they are near the top, with a rather old codex. Trust me, they do not suck. Next time, either ignore Calgar and crew, or throw 2 boyz units at them, dont waste your nobz on something that WILL ID them with every one of his attacks, or punch holes in any Warboss you toss at him.
Also, pro tip, stop putting bosses in with Nobz.
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Post by: Dribble Joy
You lost combat by one wound, that still gives you a Ld8 test plus a re-roll (assuming you haven't been daft enough to leave home without a boss pole). That's generally referred to as unlucky.
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Post by: Anvildude
Obrac wrote:Frecklesonfire wrote:Orks suck in 6th, their shooting is terrible as always, and in assault they blow... lootas are still amazing, but they are so easy to pin.. and orks at I2 are a joke, i had 10 nobz with a boss get a charge on Calgar and honour guard, i lost combat by one wound, we take the initiative test for his sweeping advance, and since orks I2 i lost horribly.. i instantly lost 9 nobz and a unscathed warboss... Initiative 2 is a joke, assault phase in general is bad in 6th..
Nobz have 3 ini and warboss has 4 ini.
And you remembered to take that test on LD 10 (modified), right? Nobs and Warbosses have Mob Rule, and you take a Break test before running...
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Post by: Orkaswampa
One thing...how did 9 nobz and a warboss deal 1 wound?......You said you lost the combat by one, so calgar mandem must have killed one nob to get 2 wounds on score, you either kitted them out horribly or had insanely bad dice rolls, not to mention using wrong stats, as well as the above mob rule point
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Post by: matphat
Frecklesonfire wrote:Orks suck in 6th, their shooting is terrible as always, and in assault they blow... lootas are still amazing, but they are so easy to pin.. and orks at I2 are a joke, i had 10 nobz with a boss get a charge on Calgar and honour guard, i lost combat by one wound, we take the initiative test for his sweeping advance, and since orks I2 i lost horribly.. i instantly lost 9 nobz and a unscathed warboss... Initiative 2 is a joke, assault phase in general is bad in 6th..
Everyone else who's responded has the right idea. All that said, you are wrong. Orks are rocking in 6th. Even better than 5th.
All of my games have been amazingly fun and very successful. Orks really are shinning now.
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Post by: skyfi
Yeah my orks have yet to lose a 6th game that I can recall.had a couple draws but that's it. Been finding orks doing good this Ed. Deffrollas kinda dead but eh. Still great just hard to get to use em. I take 2 wagons and lucky if one rolls 1 thing
Edited for mobile mistakes.
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Post by: loota boy
So, Big gunz are sweet now, and i'm in the process of building 9 of them (3 down!) because it's so easy, and so fun to make them all look different. But what kind of list do they work best with? Green tide? Bikers? Just a ton of lootas and shoota boyz? If anyone has any example lists they can post where they used them, i'd be grateful.
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Post by: Jag_Calle
I've used kannons and lobvas since 3rd ed. They're excellent for fire support, and they just got more durable
I used 'em in a mixed list, but thanks to being allowed extra heavy slots at 2k, they no longer compete with the other heavies, so I think they'll come usefull in just about any list.
They also hands down outshine kans now.
Lobbas are also a great addition to any"slow" lists.
Having trouble with jump inf? Lobba.
//Calle
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Post by: loota boy
Unfortunately, me and the boyz that i play with rarely ever play at higher than 1850 a side, and no-one is really that excited about double force org charts. Allies, sure, but otherwise, no.
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Post by: MFletch
matphat wrote:Even better than 5th.
I can not agree with this part. Our rules improved/changed but so has most armies.
Currently we are knocking on the door of the 5th edition codices. Which was the case before.
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Post by: Jag_Calle
Still, don't forget that lobbas are some of the heaviest mortars in the game...
And how many races actually have access to artillery? Us and Eldar??
//Calle
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Post by: virx67
Was battlewagon bash nerfed like Kan wall was? Or is it still competitive?
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Post by: Jag_Calle
Yay and nay. Bringing multiple wagons is still good, infact, as trukks got trashed, they became our premier transport. The deffrolla took a hit though, as most vehickes can avoid it easier.
And as meks can repair hullpoints, units like lootas, burnas and just about anything tagging along the kff mek, makes for hard transports to take down.
//Calle
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Post by: Frecklesonfire
i realize now i made a few mistakes, the boss pole, and the mob rule, but i was down i think one guy so i didn't get the mob rule actually. it was a devastating loss to the ultramarines which i hate that day excuse my rage .
right now i'm just using the models i have, we play games at 1500 at my local gw store, i have 3 squads of 30 boys, 20 nobz, 2 warbosses, 8 lootas, and a squad of burna boyz, 6 deff koptas.. can i actually make anything from this list work ? any help would be welcomed, actually on a side note i have to imp tanks that could become transport, or looted wagons .. ?
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Post by: AresX8
I got my first two games in with my Wagon list that I posted earlier, which is:
KFF - 85
Mega Armor 'Boss, Attack Squig, Cybork - 125
6 Lootas - 90
6 Lootas - 90
6 Lootas - 90
10 Grots with Runtherd - 40
18 Shootas with 1 Big Shoota; Nob PK BP - 159
19 Shootas with 1 Big Shoota; Nob PK BP - 165
19 Shootas with 1 Big Shoota; Nob PK BP - 165
20 Shootas with 1 Big Shoota; Nob PK BP - 171
Dakkajet with extra Supa Shoota and Fighta Ace - 130
Dakkajet with extra Supa Shoota and Fighta Ace - 130
Battlewagon with Deff Rolla, RPJ, Grot Riggers, Armor Plates, Big Shoota and Boarding Plank - 140
Battlewagon with Deff Rolla, RPJ, Grot Riggers, Armor Plates, Big Shoota and Boarding Plank - 140
Battlewagon with Deff Rolla, RPJ, Grot Riggers, Armor Plates, Big Shoota and Boarding Plank - 140
Battlewagon with Deff Rolla, RPJ, Grot Riggers, Armor Plates, Big Shoota and Boarding Plank - 140
2000 points
I played against a list with 6 Flyers (3 Vendettas and 3 Stormtalons) and a BA list with 2 Stormravens, 2 DC Dreads, Mephy, 30 ASM, a Priest, and 10 DC. The 6 Flyer list is something other people would call broken, but when you look at what else is in the list (3 Tac Squads with a PA Libby and 3 squads of Veterans with a CCS), all of a sudden the list doesn't look scary.
I won both games. Lootas are awesome anti Flyer like we've known already. Wagons are actually more durable compared to 5th due to 4 hull points and the fact that the same weapons that killed them in 5th still do so in 6th, meaning no change. The KFF Wagon took all 9 Lascannon hits from the Vendetta squadron and only lost 2 hull points, thanks to cover from ruins.
If I ran all Sluggas, I would've lost against the BA player since it took me all 7 turns to table him. I had 9 Boyz, all of my Lootas and both Dakkajets at the end of the game. Our PK Nobs really do need 'eavy Armor now, so I suggest you give them that.
The BA player suggested I look into giving the KFF a PK due to Look out Sir. Any thoughts regarding that? My initial reaction was not to do so since he's a support HQ, but he does have a valid point.
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Post by: virx67
Alright, it looks like Battlewagon bash is what I'll be building up towards now. Just wanted to make sure that it was still a strong build. I guess you certainly could give the KFF mek a PK, but I wouldn't do that simply because they really shouldn't be in combat. You might as well just give all your nobz heavy armor for an equivalent point cost.
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Post by: Ascalam
Jag_Calle wrote:Still, don't forget that lobbas are some of the heaviest mortars in the game...
And how many races actually have access to artillery? Us and Eldar??
//Calle
I think the SM have the Thunderfire as Artillery.
It'd be wierd if the IG didn't have any, but at present i'm not sure they do.
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Post by: Anvildude
IG have Howitzers, not Artillery. (Well, technically, it's the same thing, but in Game Terms Artillery is towed, not self-propelled).
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Post by: Dr. What
loota boy wrote:So, Big gunz are sweet now, and i'm in the process of building 9 of them (3 down!) because it's so easy, and so fun to make them all look different. But what kind of list do they work best with? Green tide? Bikers? Just a ton of lootas and shoota boyz? If anyone has any example lists they can post where they used them, i'd be grateful.
I don't think Big Gunz work well with Green Tide (though the anti-tank is nice, if you're using kannons) or Bikes (you can't keep up!).
Big Gunz go great with shooty Orks (that includes orks + allies if you please).
In fact, once I finish my Wazdakka + Warbikes + Speedcrons force, I'm going to do Shoota Boyz (at least 40, probably 60) + Big Mek(s) + Necron Warriors + Big Gunz to pull out (hopefully) a highly efficient firestorm.
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Post by: Jidmah
Jag_Calle wrote:Yay and nay. Bringing multiple wagons is still good, infact, as trukks got trashed, they became our premier transport. The deffrolla took a hit though, as most vehickes can avoid it easier.
And as meks can repair hullpoints, units like lootas, burnas and just about anything tagging along the kff mek, makes for hard transports to take down.
//Calle
Uh, how can most vehicles avoid it easier? If anything, it's harder to dodge now.
Everyone should also keep in mind that glances can no longer wreck or immobilize our battlewagons, so they are a bit harder to stop.
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Post by: mrwhoop
Vehicles can flat out in the shooting phase to stay out of reach of the deffrolla. This is because you can only ram in the movement, not in the flat out/shooting phase.
And what am I missing that BWs don't wreck when they lose their hull points?
*edited for grammer
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Post by: heckler
he was talking about glancing still being a roll on the damage chart.
*grammar
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Post by: mrwhoop
While that may be so the bigger boon is that LRs and Monos can be glanced to death IMHO
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Post by: Jidmah
mrwhoop wrote:Vehicles can flat out in the shooting phase to stay out of reach of the deffrolla. This is because you can only ram in the movement, not in the flat out/shooting phase.
And what am I missing that BWs don't wreck when they lose their hull points?
*edited for grammer
Before single glance had a pretty high chance to stop your battlewagon. Now you are guaranteed that the first three glances do nothing - even more if you have mek tools.
As for turbo-boosting - sure, let them do that. Boosting vehicles are not shooting. Assuming they actually have room to dodge the battlewagon, of course, let alone multiple battlewagons. And it's not like battlewagons can't simply follow them, forcing them to turbo-boost again next turn.
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Post by: mrwhoop
s for turbo-boosting - sure, let them do that. Boosting vehicles are not shooting. Assuming they actually have room to dodge the battlewagon, of course, let alone multiple battlewagons. And it's not like battlewagons can't simply follow them, forcing them to turbo-boost again next turn.
They wouldn't need to do it a second turn. With pre-measuring they just need to stay a fraction of an inch outside of 12in. to not be rammed in our movement. Granted if you have multiple BWs giving chase that may be giving up any cover/exposing the side armor. Also there's the 'all or nothing' of the tank shock. No more eyeballing the distance and calling it short to avoid PFs/ MBs.
*edited for da spelling
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Post by: Jidmah
Rams always forced you to move the full distance. Regular tank shocks are still a declared distance. None of these changed from 5th.
Plus, you can still aim your tankshock to avoid such models. Only models actually in the path of the tank-shock may DoG. If the sergeant has a melta bomb, just run over the other guys.
As for "no need to do it a second turn".
If a vehicle moves in any other direction other than a straight line away from the battlewagon, is has moved less than the battlewagon. If that line is blocked by own units, terrain, or the table edge (quite likely), they must turbo-bosst again in order to not be rammed. You can even force that movement by blocking a clear path. Or you pay 5 points for RPJ or a grabbin' klaw.
Again, this is no different than trying to dodge deff rollas in 5th. You can only go backwards at full speed for so long.
23066
Post by: mrwhoop
Hmm, gonna have to sit with my book again as I thought shocks were full tilt now...
53504
Post by: Dribble Joy
Had a 1.7k game last night against bugs.
Hive Tyrant with HVC, talons and nid powers. One Hive Guard.
3 Zoanthropes.
Carnifex with two sets of talons.
Two units of about 15 'stealers.
Two units of about 20 horms.
Unit of about 20 terms.
Unit of 20 Gargoyles.
I had:
2 x Megaboss, Squig, BP, CB
3 x 6 Meganobs in wagon with 4BS, Ram, Riggers and RPJ.
12 Lootas in a wagon with 4 BS, Ram, Riggers and RPJ.
Game was the fifth one (For the Emperor?). We only had time for four turns though.
He went first and deployed across the board, with one unit of stealers on one flank and the other in reserve. Big bugs went in the centre with the horms and the terms on his objective by some rocks just to the side of the carnifex. The gargoyles sat on the other flank.
My objective went pretty much opposite and with the small number of units I had I was able to quite easily pull a refused flank. The warboss wagons went on the far side away from the stealers opposite the terms and gargoyles, the lootas to the side of that and the elite choice meganobs about in the centre of the board.
First turn saw him run forwards and not do much else. I then proceeded to lay down the dakka. 19 gargoyles dropped to the troops meganobs and their wagons in the first turn. The other meganobs dropped some horms and the lootas took a wound or two off the zoanthropes.
More running from him and a hull point + shaken to the meganob unit's wagon opposite the tyrant. The stealers arrived.... on the same side as the other unit, about 3 feet from the nearest ork unit.
I then moved up the troops units up his flank, one heading for the terms and their objective, the other between some rocks to support them and help out with the now dangerously close zoanthropes. The shaken wagon pulled back away from the approaching horms.
More dakka saw a wound on the tyrant, another wounded zoanthrope and more dead horms.
The loota wagon was charged and torn apart by a small group of horms. Another hull point was taken off the nearby wagon by the tyrant.
The zoanthropes missed all their lance shots against the wagon near my objective.
The wagon heading for the terms dumped it's cargo. A few bugs dropped to dakka before massed power klaws tore the rest of the unit apart.
The lootas shot down the last of the horms that blew up their wagon.
The zoanthropes took some more wounds from dakka from the other troops unit sitting in front of my objective.
The carnifex charged the lootas, who managed to pull off an unlikely round of overwatch, taking three wounds off the big gribbly. Three lootas died before the other nine managed to stab it enough times for it to loose it's last wound.
The other unit of horms charged the elite meganob wagon, killing it.
The tyrant cast the WS/BS1 spell on the meganob unit on the objective.
The last embarked unit got out of the wagon to grab my objective. The Lootas dropped some stealers and the elite unit meganob unit dealt with the horms that killed their wagon.
The unit on his objective took the zoanthropes to a single model on one wound and then multi-charged it and the tyrant. The zoanthrope died horribly and the warboss beat the tyrant in a duel.
We had to call it there. Moping up would have been fairly straight forward. The tyrant would drop soon enough (one wound left) allowing me to pull them back onto the objective (I still had mine anyway). I still had 17 meganobs, 9 lootas and two wagons to deal with around 25 stealers arriving piecemeal.
Both had Line Breaker.
He got First Blood (the loota wagon, I couldn't be bothered killing off the single remaining gargoyle when there were other things to do).
I had two objectives.
7-2 to the Deffwing (probably would have finished 8-1 depending on the number of turns).
Oh, just remembered that he had three winged warriors, but they got blown apart pretty quickly buy the judicious application of dakka.
I also forgot that the lootas in the wagon assaulted by the horms could have overwatched when it was assaulted, which might have saved it.
43621
Post by: sirlynchmob
matphat,
You missed a con. Apparently the ork FAQ changed Ghazghkull's prophet of waaagh so it no longer grants fearless to all units.
Instead of just replacing the first sentence of the 3rd paragraph, they replaced the entire paragraph removing the part about gaining fearless.
54723
Post by: MechanicusOmnisWrex
I have an interesting question:
Which is better Flash Gitz or Nobz with TL Shootas?
10 Nobz with Painboy and Waargh Banner is 335
10 Gitz each with Blasta upgrade and with Painboy is 325
Flash Gitz have strength 5, 24" range, a random AP and ignore cover.
Nobz have strength 4, 18" range, AP 6, and are Twin Linked.
The Nobz can use any 6's to Sniper out enemy melta guns and powerfists, and get to do lots of Look Out Splat rolls
They also can count as Troops, and get a Battlewagon as Dedicated.
To me it seems that the lower range and strength are worthy sacrifices for the gains, but am interested to hear your opinions.
I agree that this isn't the best way to field Nobz but I already field 10 Nobz with Big Choppaz and am considering an entire 'Nobz as Troopz' list with 2 warboss... either that or giving the TL Shootas to the Big Choppa Boyz for some expensive Nob experimentation (they would certainly deter a lot of opposing assault units - well except those with good armour or decent AV)
While Dakkajets seem great, I am left feeling that the Blitza Bomma might work better as the need for Anti Tank is high amongst pure greenskin lists... I guess it depends on the rest of the list!
Artillery, especially Lobbaz are really really deadly now!
I base these observations on a recent game I had:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/468295.page#4624858
PS.. do Looted Wagons only move 12" when they roll a 1, or do they have to move flatout in the shooting phase as well?
PPS.. Power Klaws: Since furious charge effects the users strength, and then the weapon multiplies the users strength are they now strength 10 on the charge?
(sorry if the Klaw thing has already been covered, I have managed to read up to page 17 but my internet has been really rubbish this past couple of weeks and I haven't been able to get any further .. well, other than to post this reply today!).
28484
Post by: y0disisray
Looted Wagons are only required to move as fast as possible in that movement phase.
The +1 modifier from Furious Charge is added AFTER the base user's strength has been doubled.
54723
Post by: MechanicusOmnisWrex
Can you tell me where this is in the rules?
I am happy with either result, I'm just trying to find the definitive answer!
28484
Post by: y0disisray
Pg. 2 4th Paragraph in the BRB under "Multiple Modifiers"
As for the looted wagon Dont Press Dat! is done at the beginning of the movement phase and in the Ork FAQ nothing was ever mentioned about it having to move flat out during the shooting phase as well.
9217
Post by: KingCracker
MechanicusOmnisWrex wrote:I have an interesting question:
Which is better Flash Gitz or Nobz with TL Shootas?
10 Nobz with Painboy and Waargh Banner is 335
10 Gitz each with Blasta upgrade and with Painboy is 325
Flash Gitz have strength 5, 24" range, a random AP and ignore cover.
Nobz have strength 4, 18" range, AP 6, and are Twin Linked.
The Nobz can use any 6's to Sniper out enemy melta guns and powerfists, and get to do lots of Look Out Splat rolls
They also can count as Troops, and get a Battlewagon as Dedicated.
To me it seems that the lower range and strength are worthy sacrifices for the gains, but am interested to hear your opinions.
I agree that this isn't the best way to field Nobz but I already field 10 Nobz with Big Choppaz and am considering an entire 'Nobz as Troopz' list with 2 warboss... either that or giving the TL Shootas to the Big Choppa Boyz for some expensive Nob experimentation (they would certainly deter a lot of opposing assault units - well except those with good armour or decent AV)
While Dakkajets seem great, I am left feeling that the Blitza Bomma might work better as the need for Anti Tank is high amongst pure greenskin lists... I guess it depends on the rest of the list!
Artillery, especially Lobbaz are really really deadly now!
I base these observations on a recent game I had:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/468295.page#4624858
PS.. do Looted Wagons only move 12" when they roll a 1, or do they have to move flatout in the shooting phase as well?
PPS.. Power Klaws: Since furious charge effects the users strength, and then the weapon multiplies the users strength are they now strength 10 on the charge?
(sorry if the Klaw thing has already been covered, I have managed to read up to page 17 but my internet has been really rubbish this past couple of weeks and I haven't been able to get any further .. well, other than to post this reply today!).
I think you might be looking at them a bit wrong. When it comes to Nobz, why would you just go with TL shootas? Thats some pretty MEH weapons for Nobz, when you can kit them out, and take PKs and do all the fun that comes with a unit of characters. If you want shooty nobz, stick em on bikes.
FlashGits arnt meant to be taken stock, because they are eh, stock. But you can make them pretty lethal in shooting. I mean, assault2 str6 24inch range with a good chance of getting ap3 or better, AND ignores cover saves now? Yes please. They are pricey still, but the Gitz are meant for some potent shooting, whiles Nobz are meant for wrecking face of pretty much anything in combat.
37700
Post by: Ascalam
Gitz aren't that shabby in CC either.
It's not really where you want them to be, but they have Nob statlines
It's shocked some folk who've assaulted them to stop them from firing, only to have the assaulting unit pummeled to a man by snazzgun butts, and then for the Gitz to start up shooting again..
37480
Post by: matphat
sirlynchmob wrote:matphat,
You missed a con. Apparently the ork FAQ changed Ghazghkull's prophet of waaagh so it no longer grants fearless to all units.
Instead of just replacing the first sentence of the 3rd paragraph, they replaced the entire paragraph removing the part about gaining fearless.
I'll add that once I confirm it. Are you sure that's not in addition as opposed to replacing it?
53504
Post by: Dribble Joy
Alas the FAQ states to replace the third paragraph. The line in the codex regarding the army gaining fearless is part of the third paragraph.
46566
Post by: Beer4TheBeerGod
Jidmah wrote:
A rock is also better for cracking tanks than a banana. They still aren't good. Multi-assaults are terrible for all kinds boyz, if your only argument is them being better in multi-assaults, then that's absolutely not worth it.
These are my arguments as to why slugga boyz are superior for units charging from vehicles. I have never stipulated that slugga boyz are better on foot. Shoota boyz are definitely more flexible tactically, and if that's how you use your boyz then I agree that shootas are best. But the boyz I put on battlewagons are there to tie up the enemy and hack them to bits.
1) With random charge range you run a serious risk of failing a charge if you kill too many of the target models. Everyone here assumes that you will be able to get all those shots off and kill those 4 space marines before you assault, but I've found many circumstances where doing so would dramatically increase the risk of failing an assault and is inadvisable.
2) With fearless wounds gone the chances of having a combat last more than one turn increases. The longer a combat lasts the greater the advantage slugga boyz have over shoota boyz.
3) Multi-charge isn't universally terrible, and if you ignore it you're ignoring a large variety of options. If I multi-charge and kill three instead of six marines, or 13 instead of 23 guardsman, that means I have a better chance of staying in assault during my opponent's turn. And with orks the greatest place to be during my opponent's turn is in assault, because that means I'm not being shot. This argument is more valid against lighter opponents (guardsmen, orks, those upcoming cultists, etc) than it is against your generic space marine. Multi-charge is also very helpful against vehicle targets that are close to an infantry unit. I declare the vehicle to be my primary target, hit it with my PK nob, and then direct the rest of the boyz against the infantry target.
39309
Post by: Jidmah
0) That's why I assumed 20. Shoota boyz can disembark, shoot and then charge the enemy, so the numbers are spot-on. I have shown that they are not superior, but equal, in the vacuum of a battlewagon popping out of the warp, orks disembarking and charging. If your battlewagon gets assaulted, or you shoot anything drive-by stile, shootas are superior.
1) You are disembarking from a battlewagon. If you are in danger of failing your assault if one or two models die (about 2"), then why did you disembark? Why not sit inside the comfy BW for another turn, shoot the enemy anyways and disembark later? Of course, this is not an option for slugga boyz most of the time, but this goes right back to the point above. If your game really hinges on making or not making that one charge, simply don't shoot them. Even then, you might roll snake-eyes anyways. You should ask yourself why your game came down to making a single charge though.
2) The longer combat lasts, the more boyz you lose. You want to finish combat quickly, and you should be able to break most units within two rounds of combat. Between random charge ranges (even if you make the charge, not all boyz will be able to fight), challenges (nob smashing Sgt. Nobody instead of 3 marine), and multiple USRs helping with combat results (ATSKNF, Stuborn, Fearless), you are pretty likely to stay for at least one turn.
3) Really, do the math. If you multi-charge two units of anything, you take more casualties from the additional overwatch and close combat attacks than you would if you run down one unit and get shot and charged by the other. Losing +1S and +1A is that bad. The "chance" of staying in combat comes at a high price - as my math has shown, you are pretty likely to get taken below 10 orks within that second turn and then get run down due to losing combat. All because you chose to not kill 3 marines/10 guardsmen who are all alive and killing a couple of additional boyz every round of combat, while taking on twice as many enemies.
Multi-charge is universally terrible. If you want to sacrifice your boyz to prevent shooting, that's an option. Just like charging a soulgrinder with boyz is an option. But in that case, you don't need the extra attacks to kill minimal amounts of additional models (1 MEQ/4 GEQ/3 Orks, during each ongoing turn, assuming no casualties at all). But then again, if you had shoota boyz instead, they could have caused just as many casualties by driving past any unit at full speed and snap-firing at them.
Another option would be mopping up two wounded units at once. In that case, you wouldn't be staying in combat long enough to profit from your additional attacks. The last option would be charging your nob into a vehicle while your boyz fight someone else. This probably the most useful application, but not all vehicles are worth the huge amount of extra casualties you take from that stunt.
Unless, of course, you are charging units with absolutely no combat ability at all, like my aforementioned gretchin or ratlings. And don't blame it on the marines. A blob of guardsmen or a mob of orks kill way more boyz than those tactical marines. Awesome stats combined with one attack is still just one attack. Be afraid of space wolves and chaos marines though. And if either units is actually good at close combat, they will tear you to shreds anyways.
All assuming that your opponent allows you to multi-assault in the first place. Placing two units 6" appart makes it all but impossible to actually pull a multi-assault off as, under the new rules, multi-assault are only possible if
a) The multi-assaulting model can not reach base-to-base with the primary target
b) It is in coherency with a model that already made a charge move.
The second one really breaks your neck here, as you usually need at least four boyz to bridge a 6" gap.
44877
Post by: Bonzofever
Ascalam wrote:Gitz aren't that shabby in CC either.
It's not really where you want them to be, but they have Nob statlines
It's shocked some folk who've assaulted them to stop them from firing, only to have the assaulting unit pummeled to a man by snazzgun butts, and then for the Gitz to start up shooting again..
That's why I'd like to test them in 6th. Though, are Flashigitz able to LoS each other like a regular nob squad?
39309
Post by: Jidmah
Nope, they aren't characters. Their painboy is though
9217
Post by: KingCracker
Yup, because that helps so much
Is the painboy even worth it now? 30pts ontop of a stock Git doesnt sound worth it for a now 5+ FNP.
53504
Post by: Dribble Joy
I'd be tempted to take them with just the Assault 2 upgrade and a few ammo runts.
46566
Post by: Beer4TheBeerGod
Jidmah wrote:0) That's why I assumed 20. Shoota boyz can disembark, shoot and then charge the enemy, so the numbers are spot-on. I have shown that they are not superior, but equal, in the vacuum of a battlewagon popping out of the warp, orks disembarking and charging. If your battlewagon gets assaulted, or you shoot anything drive-by stile, shootas are superior.
1) You are disembarking from a battlewagon. If you are in danger of failing your assault if one or two models die (about 2"), then why did you disembark? Why not sit inside the comfy BW for another turn, shoot the enemy anyways and disembark later? Of course, this is not an option for slugga boyz most of the time, but this goes right back to the point above. If your game really hinges on making or not making that one charge, simply don't shoot them. Even then, you might roll snake-eyes anyways. You should ask yourself why your game came down to making a single charge though.
With random charge range you are always in danger of a charge failing. Ignoring fleet the chances of reaching a given distance are well established. Your equivalency requires that the shoota boys get their shots off before they charge. Depending on the charge distance those 2" could be crucial. Going from 6" to 8" reduces your chances of making the charge by 30%, and potentially even more if you lose enough boyz to overwatch.
And given how easy it is to destroy battlewagons, especially battlewagons that are close to the enemy and therefore susceptible to assault or side shots, it's suicide to stay inside the vehicle. Yes, 20 shoota boyz can get off their snap shots while the battlewagon is careening forward. On average 6.67 will hit, leading to one dead marine.
2) The longer combat lasts, the more boyz you lose. You want to finish combat quickly, and you should be able to break most units within two rounds of combat. Between random charge ranges (even if you make the charge, not all boyz will be able to fight), challenges (nob smashing Sgt. Nobody instead of 3 marine), and multiple USRs helping with combat results (ATSKNF, Stuborn, Fearless), you are pretty likely to stay for at least one turn.
You're right, chances are good you'll be able to break a something liek a space marine unit in two player turns. But what if the enemy charges your mob with additional troops? With a battlewagon list you're generally right in the enemy line when you fight, and your opponent isn't going to sit around and wait patiently for you to charge someone else. I also agree that you want to break the enemy in the second turn, and this is an area where slugga boyz are superior to shoota boyz since they get that extra attack. You will need 3 shoota boyz to do the equivalent number of wounds as 2 slugga boyz in that second turn.
3) Really, do the math. If you multi-charge two units of anything, you take more casualties from the additional overwatch and close combat attacks than you would if you run down one unit and get shot and charged by the other. Losing +1S and +1A is that bad. The "chance" of staying in combat comes at a high price - as my math has shown, you are pretty likely to get taken below 10 orks within that second turn and then get run down due to losing combat. All because you chose to not kill 3 marines/10 guardsmen who are all alive and killing a couple of additional boyz every round of combat, while taking on twice as many enemies.
Okay, let's do the math. I agree with you that multi-charging marines is a bad idea. You are already reasonably assured that you will survive into the opponent's turn of combat by charging a single unit. So let's focus on something lighter; guardsmen. We'll assume 20 slugga boyz are charging a unit of ten guardsmen, and have the opportunity to multi-charge a second unit should they so choose. Since I want to reach assault I will not shoot before I charge.
Guardsman get 20 snap shots, which translates to 1.11 dead orks. They then get their 10 attacks, which translates to 1.38 more dead orks. So we'll assume 3 dead orks. The remaining 17 orks get 68 attacks, which translates to 20.2 failed saves on average. So that's a dead squad, and my orks are now out in the open and within rapid fire range. The second squad rapid fires and scores 3.33 dead orks. Or 5 dead orks if they use the First Rank Fire! order. Total orks killed: 6-8.
Now let's charge that second squad. Guardsman get 40 snap shots which translates to 2.22 dead orks. Then they get their 20 attacks, which translates to 2.76 dead orks. 5 dead orks. I then get my 45 attacks which translates to 10 failed saves on average. That's still enough to force both to do a leadership check. Let's assume that they pass. Round 2 they get their 10 attacks which translates to 1.38 dead orks. I then get my 13 boyz to do 39 attacks which translates to 8.66 dead guardsmen. Total orks killed: 6-7
Your argument is that, by the math, multi-charging would lead to more casualties than charging one and getting shot at by the other. I provided a reasonable scenario in which multi-charging is better. My point stands that multi-charging has its place. It's a tactic, like everything else in the game, and it has its place.
All assuming that your opponent allows you to multi-assault in the first place. Placing two units 6" appart makes it all but impossible to actually pull a multi-assault off as, under the new rules, multi-assault are only possible if
a) The multi-assaulting model can not reach base-to-base with the primary target
b) It is in coherency with a model that already made a charge move.
The second one really breaks your neck here, as you usually need at least four boyz to bridge a 6" gap.
I agree that it's not trivial and require careful placement and proper attention to detail. There are ways to force your enemy to bunch up, such as with tank shocking.
So let's review my points.
1) In the situation of orks coming from vehicles slugga boyz are superior to shoota boyz because:
1a) Shoota boyz require a round of shooting to be equivalent to slugga boyz on the charge, and you run the risk of losing your charge range if you do this.
1b) Combat typically lasts more than one round, and in later rounds sluggas are better due to their extra attack.
2) Multi-charge is a valid tactic in certain situations, and should not be universally dismissed.
47616
Post by: Orkaswampa
Imho, i think Flash Gitz are to be used in very specific circumstances, or very friendly games, if you are expecting a challenging game that is near competitive, they dont make up their points, BS2 doesnt cut it for what they have
36809
Post by: loota boy
So, just off the top of my head, this is a very friendly list i plan on taking to play with the ladz.
2 SAG meks with ammpo runts
7 lootas
7 lootas
2X30 shoota boyz, 2 big shootas, 1 pk nob with bp and 'eavy armor
20 shoota boyz, 1 big shoota, 1 pk nob with bp and 'eavy armor
2X3 kannons, 6 additional grot crew
7 flashgitz with shootier & more dakka, with 3 ammo runts
Off the top of my head, that runs somewhere just a touch south of 1500 points.
46566
Post by: Beer4TheBeerGod
loota boy wrote:So, just off the top of my head, this is a very friendly list i plan on taking to play with the ladz.
2 SAG meks with ammpo runts
7 lootas
7 lootas
2X30 shoota boyz, 2 big shootas, 1 pk nob with bp and 'eavy armor
20 shoota boyz, 1 big shoota, 1 pk nob with bp and 'eavy armor
2X3 kannons, 6 additional grot crew
7 flashgitz with shootier & more dakka, with 3 ammo runts
Off the top of my head, that runs somewhere just a touch south of 1500 points.
Looks like a lot of fun, and has a chance of doing some crazy things. Are you putting the Meks in with the kannons or the lootas?
I just can't see Flash Gitz being worth their points relative to another group of lootas. Maybe it's just been so long that I haven't given them a real look recently, but lootas are so damn good it seems a crime not to take another group.
Why not take another big shoota in the squads? You can take 3 in a 30 man and 2 in a 20 man.
Finally if you can find the points I would SERIOUSLY recommend looking into a Aegis Defense Line with a Quad Cannon. It'll offer a large amount of protection for all those lootas and artillery pieces.
36809
Post by: loota boy
Beer4TheBeerGod wrote:loota boy wrote:So, just off the top of my head, this is a very friendly list i plan on taking to play with the ladz.
2 SAG meks with ammpo runts
7 lootas
7 lootas
2X30 shoota boyz, 2 big shootas, 1 pk nob with bp and 'eavy armor
20 shoota boyz, 1 big shoota, 1 pk nob with bp and 'eavy armor
2X3 kannons, 6 additional grot crew
7 flashgitz with shootier & more dakka, with 3 ammo runts
Off the top of my head, that runs somewhere just a touch south of 1500 points.
Looks like a lot of fun, and has a chance of doing some crazy things. Are you putting the Meks in with the kannons or the lootas?
I just can't see Flash Gitz being worth their points relative to another group of lootas. Maybe it's just been so long that I haven't given them a real look recently, but lootas are so damn good it seems a crime not to take another group.
Why not take another big shoota in the squads? You can take 3 in a 30 man and 2 in a 20 man.
Finally if you can find the points I would SERIOUSLY recommend looking into a Aegis Defense Line with a Quad Cannon. It'll offer a large amount of protection for all those lootas and artillery pieces.
The flash gitz are there mostly because I only have 15 lootas. And because I have some sweet conversion ideas for them. Meks will go with the kannons, but mayhaps i will trim some stuff for some grot units to put them into. How many points are the aegis defense line and quadcannon? And what are the stats on it? I don't own 6th rulebook yet.
On the other hand, the list feels lacking in anti-infantry. I was thinking of investing in a burna bomma or two. Thoughts? And if i do, should i take the burna missiles as well?
37700
Post by: Ascalam
I've had Flash Gits do absolutely squat but blow themselves up in some games.
In others a single mob took out massive chunks of the enemy army.
Problem is (for the non-gamblers) you never can tell what they'll do, and mathhammer doesn't really cover them too well.
My favourite game recently was with two mobs of Flashgitz and Badrukk defending a Skyshield. Those boyz were cooking ! AP 1 and 2 shots everywhere, and better than average rolls, for once..
(then again, i have an unseemly need to run Flash Gitz, and always run them fully loaded It costs a ton of points. but there's nothing quite as satisfying as seeing a huge scary-looking 2+ armoured Deathstar being reduced to smoke )
46566
Post by: Beer4TheBeerGod
loota boy wrote:
The flash gitz are there mostly because I only have 15 lootas. And because I have some sweet conversion ideas for them. Meks will go with the kannons, but mayhaps i will trim some stuff for some grot units to put them into. How many points are the aegis defense line and quadcannon? And what are the stats on it? I don't own 6th rulebook yet.
On the other hand, the list feels lacking in anti-infantry. I was thinking of investing in a burna bomma or two. Thoughts? And if i do, should i take the burna missiles as well?
If you have 15 lootas I would split it into 3 squads of 5. Increases your chances of getting an average roll, splits up what the enemy has to target, and with the new morale rules you can still regroup until there's only one dude left. Also there's nothing preventing you from converting flash gitz and mixing them up with your lootas. Orks are cunning like that.
ADL and QC is 100 points. The ADL consists of 4 5" sections and 4 2" sections about 1.5" tall that you can assemble into any configuration you want so long as two of the sections touch each other. It provides a 4+ cover save to anything behind it, and it's tall enough that it can provide a cover save to stuff like basilisks and manticores. Quad cannon is a 48" S7 AP4 Heavy 4 emplaced gun that has the twin-linked, skyfire, and interceptor qualities. Put a grot next to it and you've got a BS3 death cannon that can swat flyers out of the sky. Plus it works VERY well against infantry.
I'm not sold on burna bommers. Dakkajets seem to be universally loved, and I'm inclined to agree for the moment. This may change as more anti-air is added to the game (I shudder the think about what Eldar will be able to do to flyers once their codex is updated), but for now they're a solid option that can brutalize infantry. IMO you're looking pretty good against infantry. You've got all those kannons, lootas, SAGs, and shoota boyz.
Personally I would be more concerned with mobility than shooting infantry. You can only control three objectives since you only have three scoring units, and on foot you can be easily outmanuevered. Then again footslogging shootas are very strong and once you land on an objective it will be very hard to dislodge you from it. I think you should try it as footsloggers and see what happens.
21217
Post by: Jag_Calle
A stupid but relevant question:
A unit of five koptas can regroup as long as MORE than one kopta is left alive?
/Calle
44877
Post by: Bonzofever
Jidmah wrote:Nope, they aren't characters. Their painboy is though
Well that's what I thought - thank you for the confirmation.
The painboy doesn't seem to be worth its points in a Flash Gitz mob. Too pricey.
Beer4TheBeerGod wrote:ADL and QC is 100 points. The ADL consists of 4 5" sections and 4 2" sections about 1.5" tall that you can assemble into any configuration you want so long as two of the sections touch each other. It provides a 4+ cover save to anything behind it, and it's tall enough that it can provide a cover save to stuff like basilisks and manticores. Quad cannon is a 48" S7 AP4 Heavy 4 emplaced gun that has the twin-linked, skyfire, and interceptor qualities. Put a grot next to it and you've got a BS3 death cannon that can swat flyers out of the sky. Plus it works VERY well against infantry.
Thanks for the dimensions of ADL, I don't want to spend money on the official stuff, I'm planning to do something more orky.
How about using Ork Barricades? Does anyone know if they have similar dimensions?
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Post by: Ascalam
Jag_Calle wrote:A stupid but relevant question:
A unit of five koptas can regroup as long as MORE than one kopta is left alive?
/Calle
Yup, as that would top 25%
36809
Post by: loota boy
Beer4TheBeerGod wrote:loota boy wrote:
The flash gitz are there mostly because I only have 15 lootas. And because I have some sweet conversion ideas for them. Meks will go with the kannons, but mayhaps i will trim some stuff for some grot units to put them into. How many points are the aegis defense line and quadcannon? And what are the stats on it? I don't own 6th rulebook yet.
On the other hand, the list feels lacking in anti-infantry. I was thinking of investing in a burna bomma or two. Thoughts? And if i do, should i take the burna missiles as well?
If you have 15 lootas I would split it into 3 squads of 5. Increases your chances of getting an average roll, splits up what the enemy has to target, and with the new morale rules you can still regroup until there's only one dude left. Also there's nothing preventing you from converting flash gitz and mixing them up with your lootas. Orks are cunning like that.
I'll probably do 3 squads of 5, i just felt like i might be under for the one extra, so i put the other two into one squad. I do want to use the gitz though, just for gaks and giggles.
ADL and QC is 100 points. The ADL consists of 4 5" sections and 4 2" sections about 1.5" tall that you can assemble into any configuration you want so long as two of the sections touch each other. It provides a 4+ cover save to anything behind it, and it's tall enough that it can provide a cover save to stuff like basilisks and manticores. Quad cannon is a 48" S7 AP4 Heavy 4 emplaced gun that has the twin-linked, skyfire, and interceptor qualities. Put a grot next to it and you've got a BS3 death cannon that can swat flyers out of the sky. Plus it works VERY well against infantry.
Thanks. Sounds pretty cool. I'll probably find a grot squad to put on it for home objective holding. But if i stick a SAG mek in that grot squad, will i have to shoot the SAG at the things the Quad cannon is shooting at?
I'm not sold on burna bommers. Dakkajets seem to be universally loved, and I'm inclined to agree for the moment. This may change as more anti-air is added to the game (I shudder the think about what Eldar will be able to do to flyers once their codex is updated), but for now they're a solid option that can brutalize infantry. IMO you're looking pretty good against infantry. You've got all those kannons, lootas, SAGs, and shoota boyz.
Personally I would be more concerned with mobility than shooting infantry. You can only control three objectives since you only have three scoring units, and on foot you can be easily outmanuevered. Then again footslogging shootas are very strong and once you land on an objective it will be very hard to dislodge you from it. I think you should try it as footsloggers and see what happens.
Well, I'll probably round up points for the grot squad and the aegis defense line to hold my home objective, so that'll help my footsloggers go grab other objectives, i suppose. Guess i'll abandon the idea of burna bommas. Dunno how i'd find the points for them anyway.
Other random question: I've never run the gitz before, so i just put on the two better-looking upgrades, and ran the same amount as you would nobz. How do those of you that use gitz like to outfit them?
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Post by: Jag_Calle
Yeah. kinda makes sense 
Way to little sleep lately... *sigh*
So, a more "to the topic" question...
As we've ruled that tankbustas are actually useful in this edition, What would you take:
(ignoring that they compete for different slots.. in a less than 2k list, the kopta competes with the dakkajet, which is actually not much of a competition...)
12 Tankbustas, Nob with BP, PK. Max bomb squigs (Roughly 240 pts of the top of my head)
Or
5 deffkoptas with rokkits (roughly 230pts from memory)
Now, they're both Roughly the same cost, and fulfil the same role (ranged anti tank, AV 12 and up)
Basicly the same weapon, though one is twinlinked. Average no. of hits for the koptas should be 2,5ish, whilst roughly 3+2 squighits from the tankbustas.
Koptas Have the speed, and outflank to get them into a better position for rear/side hits on enemy tanks, whilst tankbustas usually get front/side. So, considering this I think they're roughly equal in the fire-power section.
As stated, koptas have speed working for them, along with a 4++/3++, and their increased toughness. You'll have to kill 4 before they can't regroup.
Tankbustas have a bigger head count, are as slow as the rest of your lads and SHOULD be kept close enough for the 5++ kff save at least, lower toughness also means that they're easier to kill.You have to kill 9 before they can't regroup, and the nob with the BP allows a re-roll on all LD tests.
Which would you take?
If we up the the units to 15 tankbustas, and 2x3 koptas, would that change your decision?
//Calle *loving the freedom of the extra FOC at 2k, but still unable to crank out a usefull armylist...*
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Post by: Beer4TheBeerGod
Bonzofever wrote:
Thanks for the dimensions of ADL, I don't want to spend money on the official stuff, I'm planning to do something more orky.
How about using Ork Barricades? Does anyone know if they have similar dimensions?
I actually own some of those. There are six pieces. If you look at the catalog picture and count from left to right and then down (so 1 is the upper left and 4 is the middle right) here are the dimensions:
1: 3.5" x 1.25"
2: 5.5" x 1" (the tall bit is about 3" tall)
3: 4.5" x 1"
4: 5" x 1"
5: 5.25" x 7/8"
6: 4.5" x 3/4"
Dimensions are approximate and vary quite a bit. So the total length of 27.75" is pretty much the same as the 28" length of the ADL. The only difference is that the sections are different lengths, but if your opponent is the kind of person who gets bothered by that then maybe you need a new opponent. The overall height is roughly shorter than the ADL, but I think the 1.5" is the max height of the ADL and your opponent (who we are assuming is not a dick) should again not care.
There is also the Urban Barricades set, which I also own. Here are the dimensions:
5.25" x 0.75"
5.25" x 1"
5.5" x 1"
5.5" x 0.75"
5.5" x 5/8"
5.75" x 1"
So 32.75" of barricades. Knock off one of them and they would work as well.
Automatically Appended Next Post: loota boy wrote:
Thanks. Sounds pretty cool. I'll probably find a grot squad to put on it for home objective holding. But if i stick a SAG mek in that grot squad, will i have to shoot the SAG at the things the Quad cannon is shooting at?
Yes. They got rid of ICs being able to shoot something other than whatever the artillery unit is firing at. However if your opponent is using flyers you can use the Interceptor ability to get a shot off during their turn and thus be free to shoot at whatever you want during your own turn.
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Post by: keltikhoa
Bonzofever wrote:
Thanks for the dimensions of ADL, I don't want to spend money on the official stuff, I'm planning to do something more orky.
How about using Ork Barricades? Does anyone know if they have similar dimensions?
check out my sig link for my WIP blog. got a 100% scrap ork ADL in the works. its really easy to make an ork adl... but some people are pretty picky about the hight dimentions...
46566
Post by: Beer4TheBeerGod
keltikhoa wrote:
check out my sig link for my WIP blog. got a 100% scrap ork ADL in the works. its really easy to make an ork adl... but some people are pretty picky about the hight dimentions...
They look good. Definitely needs more stuff on them though. I find that spackle makes for a great foundation, especially when you glue on bits of sand and then coat the whole thing in watered down PVA to seal it all in.
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Post by: Anvildude
When I run Flash Gitz (and I do so lurve dem) I runh them with all the upgrades, but no Painboy.
Reason being is this- Shootier, More Dakka, those are obvious choices. Blastas is the one most people get hung up about, but I think it easily pays for itself. It makes it so you're always going to be at least AP5, ups the chances of AP3 from 1/2 to a full 2/3, and ups the chances of being AP2 from 1/3 to 1/2. Also boosts AP1 to a 1/3 chance instead of a 1/6 chance. That's a significant increase, and means they perform just that little bit more reliably. Since 6th's change to the AP damage modifications, the increase (doubling the chances of AP1!) in getting low AP is that much better, increasing the effectiveness of your Str6 shooting against light vehicles.
All this in exchange for Gets Hot!, which can be re-rolled with an Ammo runt, saved with their standard 4+ Armour save, and will still only take a single wound from a Git if it does get through. But this works best if you do shooting individually for each, so you don't have pools of Gets Hot! wounds.
60125
Post by: keltikhoa
Beer4TheBeerGod wrote:keltikhoa wrote:
check out my sig link for my WIP blog. got a 100% scrap ork ADL in the works. its really easy to make an ork adl... but some people are pretty picky about the hight dimentions...
They look good. Definitely needs more stuff on them though. I find that spackle makes for a great foundation, especially when you glue on bits of sand and then coat the whole thing in watered down PVA to seal it all in.
Ya those are stage 1 pics. Getting rubble and random bits and basing pics up soon. I plan to steal the design for the quad gun from the guy who posted pictures of one on page 37 of this thread. thank you to that guy for the brilliant design idea
36809
Post by: loota boy
Anvildude wrote:When I run Flash Gitz (and I do so lurve dem) I runh them with all the upgrades, but no Painboy.
Reason being is this- Shootier, More Dakka, those are obvious choices. Blastas is the one most people get hung up about, but I think it easily pays for itself. It makes it so you're always going to be at least AP5, ups the chances of AP3 from 1/2 to a full 2/3, and ups the chances of being AP2 from 1/3 to 1/2. Also boosts AP1 to a 1/3 chance instead of a 1/6 chance. That's a significant increase, and means they perform just that little bit more reliably. Since 6th's change to the AP damage modifications, the increase (doubling the chances of AP1!) in getting low AP is that much better, increasing the effectiveness of your Str6 shooting against light vehicles.
All this in exchange for Gets Hot!, which can be re-rolled with an Ammo runt, saved with their standard 4+ Armour save, and will still only take a single wound from a Git if it does get through. But this works best if you do shooting individually for each, so you don't have pools of Gets Hot! wounds.
Hmm... that's forty points a git.... How many do you run?
36658
Post by: wtwlf123
For those with a lot of 6th ed. Ork experience, how have Challenges changed CC?
The old strategy of losing orks off the back line of combat while inflicting PK wounds with the squad's Nob is more-or-less over now, ya?
How are assault-based Ork lists handling this issue?
54112
Post by: Dr. What
Anvildude wrote:When I run Flash Gitz (and I do so lurve dem) I runh them with all the upgrades, but no Painboy.
Reason being is this- Shootier, More Dakka, those are obvious choices. Blastas is the one most people get hung up about, but I think it easily pays for itself. It makes it so you're always going to be at least AP5, ups the chances of AP3 from 1/2 to a full 2/3, and ups the chances of being AP2 from 1/3 to 1/2. Also boosts AP1 to a 1/3 chance instead of a 1/6 chance. That's a significant increase, and means they perform just that little bit more reliably. Since 6th's change to the AP damage modifications, the increase (doubling the chances of AP1!) in getting low AP is that much better, increasing the effectiveness of your Str6 shooting against light vehicles.
All this in exchange for Gets Hot!, which can be re-rolled with an Ammo runt, saved with their standard 4+ Armour save, and will still only take a single wound from a Git if it does get through. But this works best if you do shooting individually for each, so you don't have pools of Gets Hot! wounds.
I've never run Flash Gitz, but I've wanted to. A Nob with 'Eavy Armor costs 25 points and a Twin-Linked Shoota makes it 30.
I IMagine they could also be run with a Warphead to make them more effective.
46566
Post by: Beer4TheBeerGod
wtwlf123 wrote:For those with a lot of 6th ed. Ork experience, how have Challenges changed CC?
The old strategy of losing orks off the back line of combat while inflicting PK wounds with the squad's Nob is more-or-less over now, ya?
How are assault-based Ork lists handling this issue?
Yes, you can no longer rely on a hidden PK nob to survive and tear apart space marines. I've heard some players talk about just not using nobs at all, which I'm not convinced us but am seriously considering. Nobs seriously suffer in terms of what weapons they can bring. A power klaw, while fantastic against vehicles, sucks against anything other than a throw away character. Necron Lords with their mindshackle scarabs are particularly insane. On the other hand PK Nobs remain the primary means by which you can reliably destroy vehicles and in fact have gotten much better at that job since vehicles are so much easier to hit.
I'm keeping my PK Nobs for now. I seriously consider the likelihood of surviving during challenges. Against something I have no shot (including mindshackle scarabs) I'll just refuse the challenge and let my boyz do the work. Against another upgrade character it will depend on how much damage they can do. Most upgrade characters can't reliably do 2 wounds to a T4 model in a single round of assault, so against those characters I'll accept the challenge and let my PK do its job.
36658
Post by: wtwlf123
Beer4TheBeerGod wrote:Yes, you can no longer rely on a hidden PK nob to survive and tear apart space marines. I've heard some players talk about just not using nobs at all, which I'm not convinced us but am seriously considering. Nobs seriously suffer in terms of what weapons they can bring. A power klaw, while fantastic against vehicles, sucks against anything other than a throw away character. Necron Lords with their mindshackle scarabs are particularly insane. On the other hand PK Nobs remain the primary means by which you can reliably destroy vehicles and in fact have gotten much better at that job since vehicles are so much easier to hit.
I'm keeping my PK Nobs for now. I seriously consider the likelihood of surviving during challenges. Against something I have no shot (including mindshackle scarabs) I'll just refuse the challenge and let my boyz do the work. Against another upgrade character it will depend on how much damage they can do. Most upgrade characters can't reliably do 2 wounds to a T4 model in a single round of assault, so against those characters I'll accept the challenge and let my PK do its job.
Thanks. This was the information I was looking for; and afraid of. But I think you're right. You need PKs still, and most of the typical upgrade characters will lose in CC to Nobs. They'll have to hide from most CC-based ICs, but that's what your Warboss is for. Cheers. .......... Edit: I had another question about Ghazghkull's errata'd PotW! ability: It was "nerfed" in that it only adds a bonus to the running phase and you can't run and charge anymore. But it still provides two full turns of Fleet right? I don't care about his PotW! only guaranteeing a 6 for running so long as I still get back to back turns with Fleet for my entire Waaagh!-ing force.
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Post by: virx67
Why not just keep the nobz way in the back? Sure, they are monsters at CC, but since you remove at the front, it doesn't really help them. I will be running them as the absolute last person to get into a melee, only coming to the front if they are fighting a weak opponent or a vehicle. I've always viewed their only purpose for the boss pole, and as a vehicle cracker. Anything else was just icing on the cake.
36658
Post by: wtwlf123
virx67 wrote:Why not just keep the nobz way in the back? Sure, they are monsters at CC, but since you remove at the front, it doesn't really help them. I will be running them as the absolute last person to get into a melee, only coming to the front if they are fighting a weak opponent or a vehicle. I've always viewed their only purpose for the boss pole, and as a vehicle cracker. Anything else was just icing on the cake.
Well, this is the gameplan now. But it's still a nerf because you can't hit with the PK multiple times a round unless you put the Nob in jeopardy ...unlike in 5th.
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