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Post by: Bacms
^that has nothing to do with wound shenanigans. Just means if you have different type of characters you can try to pass the wound to a different nobz on a 4+, but you have to do it for every unsaved wound I believe. Don't have the rulebook with me at the moment
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Post by: Jidmah
Look out sir! Works of wounds, not unsaved wounds. If a model attempt so save another character, it has to use its own saves to prevent that wound. The character does not get to use his save in that case.
However, as you resolve wound one by one, you could use the save of your MA Warboss until he has only one wound left, and then start allocating all further wounds to boyz on a 2+
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Post by: tgjensen
Yeah, but when you use Look Out, Sir!, do you get to choose what model takes the wound instead on a successful roll of 4+?
Example: A nobz mob takes 10 bolter wounds. They all have 'eavy armor and FNP. Using Look Out, Sir! you redistribute 5 wounds to 5 different nobs other than the front one. The one in front makes two armor saves and two FNP saves, leaving him with one wound. Two other nobs fail both armor saves and FNP, leaving you with three different nobs that have taken one wound each. Next turn you shuffle the nobs around a bit, so another nob with both wounds intact is in front. They are all characters, so they all get LOS! In other words, wound allocation shenanigans.
Would this work, or are there any restrictions to prevent it?
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Post by: Ranting Fool
TedNugent wrote:When a Force Weapon is activated, does it ignore Feel No Pain?
The way I saw it played yesterday at GW was this: Force Weapons don't get activated until you cause a wound, so they have to fail any armour saves (termies) and/or FNP before the Force weapon power works.
So no, it doesn't ignore Feel No Pain (yay at least our nobs get a save before they expload) Automatically Appended Next Post: tgjensen wrote:Yeah, but when you use Look Out, Sir!, do you get to choose what model takes the wound instead on a successful roll of 4+?
Example: A nobz mob takes 10 bolter wounds. They all have 'eavy armor and FNP. Using Look Out, Sir! you redistribute 5 wounds to 5 different nobs other than the front one. The one in front makes two armor saves and two FNP saves, leaving him with one wound. Two other nobs fail both armor saves and FNP, leaving you with three different nobs that have taken one wound each. Next turn you shuffle the nobs around a bit, so another nob with both wounds intact is in front. They are all characters, so they all get LOS! In other words, wound allocation shenanigans.
Would this work, or are there any restrictions to prevent it?
Someone told me that Look Out Sir! could only be used once (But since i've not got a rulebook here I haven't checked that)
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Post by: fl2000orks40k
wat does it mean by more bublewrapping nbz with power klaws? does this mean we are not allowd them?
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Post by: MrMoustaffa
fl2000orks40k wrote:wat does it mean by more bublewrapping nbz with power klaws? does this mean we are not allowd them?
What it means is moving your klaws towards the center of the mob of boys, and toward the back of a nob unit with some vanilla or big choppa nobs to soak up the initial hits. Let the front row die off, move up during your step, and start stomping.
At least, that's how some of the vets at my store think it'll work, but they don't play orks so I'll have to test it. What helps though is that models move up 3" every Initiative phase, so even if the nob was stuck at the back, he'll move up several inches before he has to swing. So if you're clever, you should be able to keep the nob alive plenty long enough to attack back.
Also, finally found the KFF thing mentioned earlier. Gives the force field to ALL units within 6", which just made orks very tempting as allies for my guard. Now I can give my guardsmen a +5 cover save no matter what!  can't wait to blend power blobs and green tide and see what happens...
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Post by: Leth
KFF cant affect allies, as it says that they gain no benefit from your abilities(unless you are battle brothers)
Force Weapons activate after a unsaved wound. Until then not instant death so you get FNP
The reason you multi charge with orks is to eat up the overwatch shooting of a unit before charging in with your heavy hitters. Gretchin might actually be interesting. Throw them in a transport or something, have them multi-charge a few units. Eat up the overwatch(and maybe get killed, who cares) then have your orks charge in.
Flashgits + more dakka in a battlewagon could be a quite mobile damage output
Also orks + necron allies. Just throwing it out there. Looking at CCB lord, Gauss immortals with veil, and a few heavy destroyers or a doom scythe. Nice little chunk of pure anti-tank added to the list.
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Post by: Kharrak
Hmmm... KFF downgraded to a 5+ is a blow, but expected. Ork vehicles are notably weaker - but maybe the hull points shall help with that.
Basically, the only way to see how this all works is to play some damned games 
The global meta shift will most likely affect how Orks are played considerably more, than direct rule changes. I may have to take a fresh new look at my list, I may only need to tweak a few things. Gonna need to actually try it all out first.
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Post by: KingCracker
Yea burnaboyz and MANz are going to be the shiz now. Then again, burnaboyz were always the shiz, but the point still stands.
Can someone explain why Ork vehicles will be more vulnerable then before? I dont have the book in front of me to find out for myself
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Post by: kenshin620
Its just an all around vehicles are a tad more vulnerable since the changes to glancing and hull points
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Post by: Gylen
Is it just me or did Deff Rolla's also get a slight buff? Can someone please verify the following two:
Skimmers can only use their Jink (+5 or +4 if turbo-boosted) to avoid being rammed.
Walkers no longer have a section that say they can brace for impact while being rammed and can no longer death or glory. (Pg.84 last paragraph)
Am I missing something?
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Post by: doctorludo
tgjensen wrote:Yeah, but when you use Look Out, Sir!, do you get to choose what model takes the wound instead on a successful roll of 4+?
Example: A nobz mob takes 10 bolter wounds. They all have 'eavy armor and FNP. Using Look Out, Sir! you redistribute 5 wounds to 5 different nobs other than the front one. The one in front makes two armor saves and two FNP saves, leaving him with one wound. Two other nobs fail both armor saves and FNP, leaving you with three different nobs that have taken one wound each. Next turn you shuffle the nobs around a bit, so another nob with both wounds intact is in front. They are all characters, so they all get LOS! In other words, wound allocation shenanigans.
Would this work, or are there any restrictions to prevent it?
I often miss nuances the first time round, but this is my interpretation:
Look out sir can only be used once per inflicted wound. It needs a 4+
So, the character might send a few wounds onto other models, but half will hit it. The look out sir! rolls can be allocated to different models, so there is scope for scaled-down shenanigans, if your character is nearest to the enemy. But, of course, your character is more likely to die that way, as it will weather half of hits.
But, I think you would be hard pressed to argue that any one nob in a nob mob is a character. That said, I'll wait to see the arguments.
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Post by: Grundz
KingCracker wrote:Yea burnaboyz and MANz are going to be the shiz now. Then again, burnaboyz were always the shiz, but the point still stands.
Can someone explain why Ork vehicles will be more vulnerable then before? I dont have the book in front of me to find out for myself
pens are equally as dangerous statistically (but you always explode instead of wreck)
glances will wreck you when you run out of hull points, so there's never going to be that trukk or BW that just won't die.
In all, bigger vehicles go down far easier to glances, but smaller vehicles like buggies, kans, trukks, got more survivability since they can't explode in one glance, and at the same time a streak of bad rolling luck can't make one never die either.
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Post by: MrMoustaffa
Leth wrote:KFF cant affect allies, as it says that they gain no benefit from your abilities(unless you are battle brothers)
Force Weapons activate after a unsaved wound. Until then not instant death so you get FNP
The reason you multi charge with orks is to eat up the overwatch shooting of a unit before charging in with your heavy hitters. Gretchin might actually be interesting. Throw them in a transport or something, have them multi-charge a few units. Eat up the overwatch(and maybe get killed, who cares) then have your orks charge in.
Flashgits + more dakka in a battlewagon could be a quite mobile damage output
Also orks + necron allies. Just throwing it out there. Looking at CCB lord, Gauss immortals with veil, and a few heavy destroyers or a doom scythe. Nice little chunk of pure anti-tank added to the list.
The thing about the KFF though is that it specifically says ALL units. not just orks, not your orks and an ally, but everything. even your enemy gets KFF saves if they're in 6" or less from the mek. To show what I'm talking about, here's the codex entry under the big mek.
" Kustom Force Field: Meks will build or scavenge powerful force field projectors with which to protect their warty hides. A kustom force field gives all units within 6" of the mek a cover save of 5+. Vehicles within 6" are treated as being obscured targets. The force field has no effect in an assault."
I'm not even trying to be a TFG, that's just what the codex says. If it was friendly only, like strakens furious charge bubble, it would say it(or get faq'd, which is very likely), but as it's written now, it affects everything. so now, you have to let your opponent know he's got a +5 cover save if he get's close enough to your mek. I can imagine that conversation now.
Ork player: "dont worry, you'll get a +5 save if you get within 6" of my mek! It works for everyone!"
Ig player: "what about the giant mob of boyz right next to him?"
Ork: "ahh dont worry about them, you'll have a +5 cover save! "
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Post by: AresX8
Jidmah wrote:Look out sir! Works of wounds, not unsaved wounds. If a model attempt so save another character, it has to use its own saves to prevent that wound. The character does not get to use his save in that case.
However, as you resolve wound one by one, you could use the save of your MA Warboss until he has only one wound left, and then start allocating all further wounds to boyz on a 2+
Actually Jidmah, Look out, Sir can be used on an unsaved wound. Look at the parenthesis in the introduction of the rule on pg 16.
Ranting Fool wrote:
....
Someone told me that Look Out Sir! could only be used once (But since i've not got a rulebook here I haven't checked that)
Used once per allocated wound to the character.
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Post by: Fafnir
Jidmah wrote:Look out sir! Works of wounds, not unsaved wounds. If a model attempt so save another character, it has to use its own saves to prevent that wound. The character does not get to use his save in that case.
However, as you resolve wound one by one, you could use the save of your MA Warboss until he has only one wound left, and then start allocating all further wounds to boyz on a 2+
Kind of.
If the models have different saves, then you roll for LOS and allocate them before you roll saves.
If the models all have the same save, then you roll your saves, then roll LOS and allocate after.
ICs pass their LOS roll on a 2+
Furthermore, anyone who says you may only reallocate a wound once per turn is wrong. You can onlly reallocate a single wound once. So you can't waste your opponent's time by bouncing a wound around a bunch of characters in a unit until they get frustrated and throw you out a window. You may, however, use LOS on as many wounds as you want.
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Post by: PipeAlley
Fafnir wrote:Really annoyed about what they've done with reserves.
I really, really, really like Snikrot and his boyz, but now they're complete garbage. The only positive thing to come out of it is that there'll be more room in my case, knowing that I can leave my kommandoes back home when I leave town after the summer.
100% agree. Poor Snik got quite the kick in the short pants!
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Post by: Jidmah
tgjensen wrote:Yeah, but when you use Look Out, Sir!, do you get to choose what model takes the wound instead on a successful roll of 4+?
Example: A nobz mob takes 10 bolter wounds. They all have 'eavy armor and FNP. Using Look Out, Sir! you redistribute 5 wounds to 5 different nobs other than the front one. The one in front makes two armor saves and two FNP saves, leaving him with one wound. Two other nobs fail both armor saves and FNP, leaving you with three different nobs that have taken one wound each. Next turn you shuffle the nobs around a bit, so another nob with both wounds intact is in front. They are all characters, so they all get LOS! In other words, wound allocation shenanigans.
Would this work, or are there any restrictions to prevent it?
This would work. You nominate the model which will do Look out Sir! before rolling.
Ranting Fool wrote:TedNugent wrote:When a Force Weapon is activated, does it ignore Feel No Pain?
The way I saw it played yesterday at GW was this: Force Weapons don't get activated until you cause a wound, so they have to fail any armour saves (termies) and/or FNP before the Force weapon power works.
So no, it doesn't ignore Feel No Pain (yay at least our nobs get a save before they expload)
That's not what the rules say, FNP triggers off unsaved wounds. See my last post for what they do say.
Someone told me that Look Out Sir! could only be used once (But since i've not got a rulebook here I haven't checked that)
With all due respect, if you don't have a rulebook, maybe don't answer questions concerning it?
Leth wrote:KFF cant affect allies, as it says that they gain no benefit from your abilities(unless you are battle brothers)
That's not what the rules say. The rules say treat allies as enemy units you can not shoot, charge, etc. There is no longer a rule or FAQ preventing the KFF from affecting enemy models.
Force Weapons activate after a unsaved wound. Until then not instant death so you get FNP
FNP also activates after unsaved wounds. There are rules for two effects activating at once in the rulebook, as detailed above.
The reason you multi charge with orks is to eat up the overwatch shooting of a unit before charging in with your heavy hitters. Gretchin might actually be interesting. Throw them in a transport or something, have them multi-charge a few units. Eat up the overwatch(and maybe get killed, who cares) then have your orks charge in.
Enemy units can opt to not overwatch, and shoot the next attackers if they are not in combat.
KingCracker wrote:Yea burnaboyz and MANz are going to be the shiz now. Then again, burnaboyz were always the shiz, but the point still stands.
Can someone explain why Ork vehicles will be more vulnerable then before? I dont have the book in front of me to find out for myself
The aren't. All vehicles are now more likely to die over the course of the game, rather than surviving a hundred glances, but are much more unlikely to die during the first turns.
AresX8 wrote:Jidmah wrote:Look out sir! Works of wounds, not unsaved wounds. If a model attempt so save another character, it has to use its own saves to prevent that wound. The character does not get to use his save in that case.
However, as you resolve wound one by one, you could use the save of your MA Warboss until he has only one wound left, and then start allocating all further wounds to boyz on a 2+
Actually Jidmah, Look out, Sir can be used on an unsaved wound. Look at the parenthesis in the introduction of the rule on pg 16.
Only at the time it is allocated. You would usually not allocate an unsaved wound to a model with different save.
I'd also appreciate if people read the entire thread or at least the first post of this thread before posting an awesome buff to orks for the fifth time.
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Post by: Fafnir
Just to summarize LOS, here's a post I've posted in the FAQ thread, because some people still don't get it:
Fafnir wrote:First of all, you can LOS as many wounds in a turn as you like. There is no restriction on this. The restriction is that you can only LOS a single wound once. What this means is that you cannot bounce a wound around a unit of characters until your opponent gets tired and throws you out a window. That is all. There is no other limitation.
Second, you have to keep in mind when wounds and saves are allocated.
If all the models in the unit will be using the same save, then you LOS and allocate the wounds all at the same time, AFTER any saving throws have been rolled (although supposedly before FnP).
If the models are going to have different saves, then you roll LOS for the first wound, allocate the wound, and THEN roll any applicable saves from the new receiving model, before repeating the process with the next wound. Also keep in mind that the shooting player gets to decide what order these wounds are saved in.
So although there's a lot of things to exploit and take advantage of with this new system, there are a few restrictions to keep in mind:
-This means that you may NOT use LOS to pass a better save on to models with weaker saves.
-This means that you may NOT use LOS to pile all the instant-death wounds on to a single model.
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Post by: Jidmah
Nice summary 
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Post by: TedNugent
Jidmah wrote:
I think you are talking about BA's Fear in the Dark or something?
Fearless makes you auto-pass pinning, morale, regroup and fear checks, but not regular leadership tests. You also can not go to ground for any reason, including pinning.
Telepathy, page 423:
4. Terrify - within 24", 1 enemy unit receives no benefit from Fearless and all enemy units (presumably caster's units) within 24" have Fear, finally immediately forces a Morale check upon target unit.
Specifically what I am asking is how does that affect a unit of Ork Boyz, 30 strong, with the Mob Rule special rule.
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Post by: Jidmah
You would simply make a leadership test on the value of 10, rerollable with a boss pole, as it's a moral check.
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Post by: l0k1
Big meks being able to repair to hull points is great for Kan wall lists.
So I played a game against my buddy's BA, and let me say that overwatch with large mobs of shoota boyz is absolutely ridiculous! So many dice rolls and so many dead marines, all killed when he tried to assault lol
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Post by: TedNugent
l0k1 wrote:Big meks being able to repair to hull points is great for Kan wall lists.
I don't think there are going to be Kan Wall lists any more. There's no reason for that configuration as you get no bonus to your cover saves by using Kans.
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Post by: Goresaw
I've played about 4 games of 6th so far.
I still like vehicles. I don't think the hull points is that much of a nerf to my transports. I don't care if they die on turn two, I want them effective (not stunned/immobilized) for turn one. The new system seems to accomplish this fairly well. If you don't kill my battlewagon, it will be screaming 18 inches in turn 1. After that, I don't care to much because you have 20 boyz or 5 meganobz or 15 burnaz or tons of other orky goodness in your deployment zone. I'm not saying vehicles aren't nerfed, but they certainly aren't unplayable, and still form the core of a very viable assault army.
I like flyers. In the few games I've played my dakka jet, its been ignored, (6's to hit or not). With so many screaming boyz in the enemy's deployment zone by the turn it comes in, your opponent is just going to ignore it. Which is bad for them. Honestly, it does a LOT of wounds. I've put 17 wounds on a termi squad. I've wiped out entire firewarrior teams. I also like the way that flyers feel. They feel very much like a jet. Something that screams over head, does a lot of damage, then flys off and will be back later. Its a very different feel from a unit on the ground, holding an area, etc. The flyers are excellent 'problem' solvers. They have the flexibility and speed to be able to deal with the unexpected or the mistakes that a novice general (like myself) makes when units get caught out of position.
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Post by: l0k1
TedNugent wrote:l0k1 wrote:Big meks being able to repair to hull points is great for Kan wall lists.
I don't think there are going to be Kan Wall lists any more. There's no reason for that configuration as you get no bonus to your cover saves by using Kans.
Are you referring to KFF only granting a 5+ cover save? It's a 5+ instead of a 4+ but good.
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Post by: KingCracker
l0k1 wrote:Big meks being able to repair to hull points is great for Kan wall lists.
So I played a game against my buddy's BA, and let me say that overwatch with large mobs of shoota boyz is absolutely ridiculous! So many dice rolls and so many dead marines, all killed when he tried to assault lol
Beautiful. I guess I dont have to worry too much about assault marines jumping on my boyz. I just know my brother will bring some in the first few games we play. Also, I need to get ta buildin a Jet or two
And cool on the vehicles, I never thought trukks were very survivable anyways (mainly why I moved away from trukk mobz) but I still use them for nob bombz, or in this new case, MANz missiles will be a regular feature in my builds 
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Post by: sirlynchmob
l0k1 wrote:TedNugent wrote:l0k1 wrote:Big meks being able to repair to hull points is great for Kan wall lists.
I don't think there are going to be Kan Wall lists any more. There's no reason for that configuration as you get no bonus to your cover saves by using Kans.
Are you referring to KFF only granting a 5+ cover save? It's a 5+ instead of a 4+ but good.
I think he meant the boys hiding behind the kans are at 5 as well now. But still a 5+ cover save for your whole army is better than no cover saves. Kans get 2 HPs so it might be a fair trade off, I'll withhold judgement on that til I've played a few games with it.
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Post by: tgjensen
doctorludo wrote:But, I think you would be hard pressed to argue that any one nob in a nob mob is a character. That said, I'll wait to see the arguments.
I got to have a look in the rulebook today. The thing is, Meganobz and Flash Gits are listed as regular infantry whereas Biker Nobs, 'Ard Boy Nobs and Nobs are listed as characters. This leads you to conclude that the Nobs entry refers to regular Boyz mob Nobs, and that they goofed in not making a separate entry for Nobs mobs (and presumably Biker Nobs would refer to Warbiker upgrades) - but none-the-less, as written, Nobs mobs are a bunch of characters. It's worth noting that Paladins are also all characters, and while I don't have that codex, my friend told me you can only take those in squads, not as upgrades, as well.
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Post by: Leth
Yep, if they don't overwatch they might be in combat, if they do overwatch they definitely cant overwatch the next target. Either way the target unit(s) cant shoot.
Okay on the FNP vs Force weapon debate. They both activate at the same time. You take your test, your force property is now activated. I take my FNP the wound is for all intents and purposes negated.
So i guess your weapon has the force property now, and you have used a power but the wound does not go through.
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Post by: TedNugent
l0k1 wrote:TedNugent wrote:l0k1 wrote:Big meks being able to repair to hull points is great for Kan wall lists.
I don't think there are going to be Kan Wall lists any more. There's no reason for that configuration as you get no bonus to your cover saves by using Kans.
Are you referring to KFF only granting a 5+ cover save? It's a 5+ instead of a 4+ but good.
Okay, you get a 5+ cover save without the Killa Kans. Hence you don't need them any more.
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Post by: Billagio
So what does everyone think about storm boyz now? I know theyre better now that they get hammer of wrath and with Zagg they can DS and assault. Seems like a pretty sweet deal to me, but they are rather expensive points wise and as fragile as normal boyz. Was thinking about trying them out or getting some bikers since they also got a buff as well.
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Post by: Bacms
TedNugent wrote:l0k1 wrote:
Okay, you get a 5+ cover save without the Killa Kans. Hence you don't need them any more.
5+ always is still better than 5+ sometimes. Plus kans have DDCW and more importantly they are good at making you being able to charge your boyz rather than get them being charged. That was really the main reason to take them. It is too early to say if they will still be valid or not. The main problem seems to be that all the killa kans need to be within the 6 inches of the KFF to work now. But I haven't reached that section of the rulebook yet
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Post by: kenshin620
I wonder if Deffwing is at all viable now. With 4 warbosses at 2k you can have 4 angry troop slotted MANz!
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Post by: Jidmah
Leth wrote:Yep, if they don't overwatch they might be in combat, if they do overwatch they definitely cant overwatch the next target. Either way the target unit(s) cant shoot.
Okay on the FNP vs Force weapon debate. They both activate at the same time. You take your test, your force property is now activated. I take my FNP the wound is for all intents and purposes negated.
So i guess your weapon has the force property now, and you have used a power but the wound does not go through.
Again, that's not what the rules say. If two things activate at the same time, the active player gets to chose which is first. If Force goes first, you can not use FNP. If FNP goes first, your opponent can no longer activate Force.
Unless you want your models to die, FNP works against force weapons during your turn, but not on your opponent's turn.
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Post by: TedNugent
Billagio wrote:So what does everyone think about storm boyz now? I know theyre better now that they get hammer of wrath and with Zagg they can DS and assault. Seems like a pretty sweet deal to me, but they are rather expensive points wise and as fragile as normal boyz. Was thinking about trying them out or getting some bikers since they also got a buff as well.
They sound interesting, but D3 12 point models die in the entry and 1 dies per morale test and on a 1 roll on D6 for each move. 6+ saves, with no real viable way to improve, the question hinges on whether they can make their Deep Strike Assault work and whether the Hammer of Wrath is base strength or is affected by Power Klaws.
My suspicion is that it's going to be base strength and you're going to have to wait til I3 to use Zag's Power Klaw, in which case, lame.
They are still overpriced and extremely squishy for the cost per model, and the model bleed due to everything (morale tests, movement, and deep striking) sounds excessive. But they have potential.
Jidmah wrote:
Again, that's not what the rules say. If two things activate at the same time, the active player gets to chose which is first. If Force goes first, you can not use FNP. If FNP goes first, your opponent can no longer activate Force.
Unless you want your models to die, FNP works against force weapons during your turn, but not on your opponent's turn.
Meaning if I assault, I get my FNP and vice versa?
By the way, you said that the active player gets to choose which goes first, not which of the two is active. If a unit of Nobs assaulted a unit of Grey Knights, they could choose to take their FNP against the Force Weapons, but if their FNP failed the Ork player would be forced to allow the Force Weapon activation immediately following the FNP roll for each failed FNP roll, in which case you can still be instant death'ed even though you got an FNP roll, no?
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Post by: Jidmah
kenshin620 wrote:I wonder if Deffwing is at all viable now. With 4 warbosses at 2k you can have 4 angry troop slotted MANz!
About as viable as Vanilla Marines Fielding nothing but Assault Terminators. Not terrible, but not awesome. The lack the awesome shooting Paladins or Deathwing Terminators have. They are a viable alternative to nobz now, not much more.
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Post by: Lovepug13
Whilst it is not constructive to the thread.....I think we got shafted lol, I have put my green skins into hibernation lol
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Post by: TedNugent
Jidmah wrote:kenshin620 wrote:I wonder if Deffwing is at all viable now. With 4 warbosses at 2k you can have 4 angry troop slotted MANz!
About as viable as Vanilla Marines Fielding nothing but Assault Terminators. Not terrible, but not awesome.
Vanilla Marines can't take Assault Terminators as scoring units.
There's always backfield Lootas.
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Post by: Billagio
TedNugent wrote:Billagio wrote:So what does everyone think about storm boyz now? I know theyre better now that they get hammer of wrath and with Zagg they can DS and assault. Seems like a pretty sweet deal to me, but they are rather expensive points wise and as fragile as normal boyz. Was thinking about trying them out or getting some bikers since they also got a buff as well.
They sound interesting, but D3 12 point models die in the entry and 1 dies per morale test and on a 1 roll on D6 for each move. 6+ saves, with no real viable way to improve, the question hinges on whether they can make their Deep Strike Assault work and whether the Hammer of Wrath is base strength or is affected by Power Klaws.
My suspicion is that it's going to be base strength and you're going to have to wait til I3 to use Zag's Power Klaw, in which case, lame.
They are still overpriced and extremely squishy for the cost per model, and the model bleed due to everything (morale tests, movement, and deep striking) sounds excessive. But they have potential.
I see, well what about warbikers? I was thinking of taking a squad of like 6 warbikers to run around and blast things with dakka guns. They seem pretty survivable to me, but cost a bit more points. They still get hammer and can easily be used as nob bikers.
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Post by: kenshin620
Jidmah wrote:kenshin620 wrote:I wonder if Deffwing is at all viable now. With 4 warbosses at 2k you can have 4 angry troop slotted MANz!
About as viable as Vanilla Marines Fielding nothing but Assault Terminators. Not terrible, but not awesome. The lack the awesome shooting Paladins or Deathwing Terminators have. They are a viable alternative to nobz now, not much more.
True, but I suppose MANz cruise missile (3 or so in a trukk) are more attractive to other ork builds. Shooting wise though I think the kombi scorcha is a good bet for them, heavy flamers that can be used by every member!
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Post by: Jidmah
The point is, you can simply evade MANz by not fighting them. You can't evade psycannons and CMLs. And they still implode to lascannons and lances, have terrible ld and thus can be easily tank-shocked. Granted, they don't run off the table anymore, but there still is no point in using MANz as you army core. Automatically Appended Next Post: Billagio wrote:I see, well what about warbikers? I was thinking of taking a squad of like 6 warbikers to run around and blast things with dakka guns. They seem pretty survivable to me, but cost a bit more points. They still get hammer and can easily be used as nob bikers.
Warbikers get free I10 attacks in addition to everything they already had. It's now more viable to finish off units by assaulting them, you still don't want to stick them in fights where you suffer many losses. Their nob is also a vicious opponent in challenges.
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Post by: tgjensen
Billagio wrote:So what does everyone think about storm boyz now? I know theyre better now that they get hammer of wrath and with Zagg they can DS and assault. Seems like a pretty sweet deal to me, but they are rather expensive points wise and as fragile as normal boyz. Was thinking about trying them out or getting some bikers since they also got a buff as well.
I ran a unit in a small game today (without Zagstruck). The thing is, you can only use your jump pack in either the movement phase (for 12+ D6 inches movement) or the assault phase (for Hammer of Wrath and the charge distance re-roll). This means that it can be pretty tricky to maneuver them to get that Hammer of Wrath. I got the feeling that I'll be playing them much as I played them in 5th: Fragile, so keep them back or in cover until I get the chance to either zoom in and hit something fragile, or as a backup assault unit. Hammer of Wrath is pretty good against squishier units though.
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Post by: Billagio
tgjensen wrote:Billagio wrote:So what does everyone think about storm boyz now? I know theyre better now that they get hammer of wrath and with Zagg they can DS and assault. Seems like a pretty sweet deal to me, but they are rather expensive points wise and as fragile as normal boyz. Was thinking about trying them out or getting some bikers since they also got a buff as well.
I ran a unit in a small game today (without Zagstruck). The thing is, you can only use your jump pack in either the movement phase (for 12+ D6 inches movement) or the assault phase (for Hammer of Wrath and the charge distance re-roll). This means that it can be pretty tricky to maneuver them to get that Hammer of Wrath. I got the feeling that I'll be playing them much as I played them in 5th: Fragile, so keep them back or in cover until I get the chance to either zoom in and hit something fragile, or as a backup assault unit. Hammer of Wrath is pretty good against squishier units though.
Oh wow I didnt catch that with only using it once per turn. Looks like ill be sticking to warbikers then I think.
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Post by: Jidmah
Btw, the silly side of the rules:
If a BigMek with as SAG shoots himself into close combat, he can now immediately challenge their leader
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Post by: CT GAMER
Jidmah wrote:but there still is no point in using MANz as you army core.
The rule of cool disagress with you.
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Post by: TedNugent
Does Hammer of Wrath use base strength and is there any word on whether it uses your Wargear?
I'm trying to figure out what happens when you put a Power Klaw on a Biker/Stormboy Nob. I also think Zag's Vulcha Klaws are a confuddled mess right now, which is weird because they specifically addressed his Power Klaw in the FAQ they just neglected to mention how HoW affects it.
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Post by: Jidmah
CT GAMER wrote:Jidmah wrote:but there still is no point in using MANz as you army core.
The rule of cool disagress with you.
The rule of cool is not a tactical asset, thus irrelevant in a forum labeled "tactics". Automatically Appended Next Post: TedNugent wrote:Does Hammer of Wrath use base strength and is there any word on whether it uses your Wargear?
I'm trying to figure out what happens when you put a Power Klaw on a Biker/Stormboy Nob. I also think Zag's Vulcha Klaws are a confuddled mess right now, which is weird because they specifically addressed his Power Klaw in the FAQ they just neglected to mention how HoW affects it.
Hammer of Wrath always uses the model's unmodified strength.
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Post by: TedNugent
Jidmah wrote:
Hammer of Wrath always uses the model's unmodified strength.
e.g. strength 3 on Warbikers and Stormboyz?
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Post by: Jidmah
Seems that way.
Edit: It does auto-hit though, so that's still better than a regular S4 WS4 attack.
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Post by: TedNugent
Yeah that wouldn't be so bad but it means that Hammer of Wrath is literally nothing to get excited about.
I'll run the math now but I'm guessing it's going to be completely underwhelming.
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Post by: tgjensen
It's about two dead marines for a mob of 16 like I run. It's nothing fantastic, but it gives Stormboyz that little extra oomph they needed. Nothing gamebreaking, it just makes them a little more viable for their points.
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Post by: Leth
Okay, so on the turn the ork player charges he gets FNP, on the opponents turn he doesnt first. Okay simple enough. Could you point it out to me in the rulebook where it says that, just so I can tell my opponents and have a solid rule to back it up?
Rule of cool always is a tactical asset in the same way as morale is a tactical asset. Rule of cool increases your morale through increased enjoyment with your army. Morale also increases your tactical abilities(well it does for me anyway), I know the number of times I make tactical mistakes is when my morale is broken. So in essence it should be considered at the very core of any tactical discussion. Then again I am going to have season one of G.I.Joe in the background while I build and paint my storm talons, so what do I know.
Free attacks are free attacks IMO. Auto hits are basically two free attacks(assuming similar weapon skill) at base strength if you want to think of it that way.
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Post by: KingCracker
Lovepug13 wrote:Whilst it is not constructive to the thread.....I think we got shafted lol, I have put my green skins into hibernation lol
Care to explain this logic?
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Post by: MrMoustaffa
So, ran an 8 nob group today in a small 1,000pt game to test a multitude of things (not to mention bringing guard platoons as allies. So. much. dakka ) and they did very well. Smashed a couple of units of fire warriors, a farseer, and took all the fire a 1k eldar could put out for almost 3 turns by themselves, before finally getting dragged down by that special Eldar demon HQ guy.
my setup was the following:
Nob 1: PK, Cybork, Waaagh banna
Nob 2: PK, Cybork, BP
Nob 3: PK, Cybork, BP
Nob 4: Painboy
Nob 5: Cybork, slugga, choppa
Nob 6: Cybork, Slugga, Choppa
Nob 7: Cybork, Slugga, Choppa
Nob 8: cybork, Slugga, Choppa
"Look out sir!" is both the funniest, and handiest rule for nobz at the same time. Watching a group of nobs chuck each other into the path of incoming fire nonstop was hilarious, and allowed me to place the wounds however I needed. Yeah it hurt if you failed it, but by putting the slugga/choppa nobs at the front greatly mitigated the damage. Plus, if you started doing "look out sir!" from the first wound onward, it gives you more room for error. Then, you just take wounded nobs and move them back a rank the next turn. It's not as foolproof as wound shenanigans last edition, but its still plenty viable. Cybork with FNP is a big help as well.
I have a feeling we'll be seeing people bring "bodyguard" nobs, barebones nobs whose job is to stand up front and soak up fire so the PK's can make it into combat unharmed. Looks like we might just have a use for all those AoBR nobs after all...
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Post by: TedNugent
Leth wrote:Okay, so on the turn the ork player charges he gets FNP, on the opponents turn he doesnt first. Okay simple enough. Could you point it out to me in the rulebook where it says that, just so I can tell my opponents and have a solid rule to back it up?
NO. NO.
You need to read the history of a conversation carefully.
We were talking specifically about a unit with the Feel No Pain USR that sustained a wound from a Force Weapon. You don't get Feel No Pain unless it says you get Feel No Pain, e.g. a unit of Nobs with a Painboy, same as always.
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Post by: KingCracker
MrMoustaffa wrote:So, ran an 8 nob group today in a small 1,000pt game to test a multitude of things (not to mention bringing guard platoons as allies. So. much. dakka ) and they did very well. Smashed a couple of units of fire warriors, a farseer, and took all the fire a 1k eldar could put out for almost 3 turns by themselves, before finally getting dragged down by that special Eldar demon HQ guy.
my setup was the following:
Nob 1: PK, Cybork, Waaagh banna
Nob 2: PK, Cybork, BP
Nob 3: PK, Cybork, BP
Nob 4: Painboy
Nob 5: Cybork, slugga, choppa
Nob 6: Cybork, Slugga, Choppa
Nob 7: Cybork, Slugga, Choppa
Nob 8: cybork, Slugga, Choppa
"Look out sir!" is both the funniest, and handiest rule for nobz at the same time. Watching a group of nobs chuck each other into the path of incoming fire nonstop was hilarious, and allowed me to place the wounds however I needed. Yeah it hurt if you failed it, but by putting the slugga/choppa nobs at the front greatly mitigated the damage. Plus, if you started doing "look out sir!" from the first wound onward, it gives you more room for error. Then, you just take wounded nobs and move them back a rank the next turn. It's not as foolproof as wound shenanigans last edition, but its still plenty viable. Cybork with FNP is a big help as well.
I have a feeling we'll be seeing people bring "bodyguard" nobs, barebones nobs whose job is to stand up front and soak up fire so the PK's can make it into combat unharmed. Looks like we might just have a use for all those AoBR nobs after all...
Thats so not Orky, but is making me chuckle anyways. I keep seeing this in my head
OI!!! Look out Powa Klaw Nob! Ders a bullet headin roight fer ya!
*leaps in the path to save PK nob*
OI!!!! U's got ta be more careful! MOAR BULLETS BOSS!!!!!!
*leaps infront of more bullets*
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Post by: Voodoo Boyz
I wasn't really down on the Orks for 6th, until today when I saw the "Challenge" thread, which is a huge, HUGE nerf to hidden Power Klaw Nobz in Boyz mobs, which is the absolute staple of the Ork list.
Now, I see a big Nob Biker unit, with "Necrork Allies", Lootas, and maybe some more Nob Bikers.
MANz appeared to be a really nice winner, but I think Battlewagons are dead in a tournament environment where Necrons exist.
The Kan Wall may be pretty good still when backed up by Lootas and Shootas, but with the huge nerf to PK Nobz in Boyz squads, I'm not that certain they can be relied on anymore once we hit CC.
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Post by: TedNugent
KingCracker wrote:
Thats so not Orky, but is making me chuckle anyways. I keep seeing this in my head
OI!!! Look out Powa Klaw Nob! Ders a bullet headin roight fer ya!
*leaps in the path to save PK nob*
OI!!!! U's got ta be more careful! MOAR BULLETS BOSS!!!!!!
*leaps infront of more bullets*
lol
Seriously. That's gotta be the most silly rule they've come up with.
"Look out Power Klaw Nob!" that's classic
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Post by: Fafnir
I think the idea is that he's throwing his underlings in front of him.
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Post by: Leth
TedNugent wrote:Leth wrote:Okay, so on the turn the ork player charges he gets FNP, on the opponents turn he doesnt first. Okay simple enough. Could you point it out to me in the rulebook where it says that, just so I can tell my opponents and have a solid rule to back it up?
NO. NO.
You need to read the history of a conversation carefully.
We were talking specifically about a unit with the Feel No Pain USR that sustained a wound from a Force Weapon. You don't get Feel No Pain unless it says you get Feel No Pain, e.g. a unit of Nobs with a Painboy, same as always.
Yes I know that, I was not saying that he magically got FNP, I was just paraphrasing it. Still looking for that page number
and yes, I find it much more likely he grabbed either the smallest ork, or his second in command and just holds them in front of him.
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Post by: Billagio
MrMoustaffa wrote:So, ran an 8 nob group today in a small 1,000pt game to test a multitude of things (not to mention bringing guard platoons as allies. So. much. dakka ) and they did very well. Smashed a couple of units of fire warriors, a farseer, and took all the fire a 1k eldar could put out for almost 3 turns by themselves, before finally getting dragged down by that special Eldar demon HQ guy.
my setup was the following:
Nob 1: PK, Cybork, Waaagh banna
Nob 2: PK, Cybork, BP
Nob 3: PK, Cybork, BP
Nob 4: Painboy
Nob 5: Cybork, slugga, choppa
Nob 6: Cybork, Slugga, Choppa
Nob 7: Cybork, Slugga, Choppa
Nob 8: cybork, Slugga, Choppa
"Look out sir!" is both the funniest, and handiest rule for nobz at the same time. Watching a group of nobs chuck each other into the path of incoming fire nonstop was hilarious, and allowed me to place the wounds however I needed. Yeah it hurt if you failed it, but by putting the slugga/choppa nobs at the front greatly mitigated the damage. Plus, if you started doing "look out sir!" from the first wound onward, it gives you more room for error. Then, you just take wounded nobs and move them back a rank the next turn. It's not as foolproof as wound shenanigans last edition, but its still plenty viable. Cybork with FNP is a big help as well.
I have a feeling we'll be seeing people bring "bodyguard" nobs, barebones nobs whose job is to stand up front and soak up fire so the PK's can make it into combat unharmed. Looks like we might just have a use for all those AoBR nobs after all...
Ha. Thats pretty awesome, Im glad to see Nob mobs still have a place. Why 2x BP? Just for redundancy?
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Post by: Jayden63
TedNugent wrote:Yeah that wouldn't be so bad but it means that Hammer of Wrath is literally nothing to get excited about.
I'll run the math now but I'm guessing it's going to be completely underwhelming.
Its all about weight of attacks. 20 free S3 hits can still do a number on stuff that is T3.
Like all things, you just need to pick your targets. You don't slam them into wraithlords.
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Post by: Fafnir
Jayden63 wrote:
Its all about weight of attacks. 20 free S3 hits can still do a number on stuff that is T3.
In all fairness, everything that's T3 this edition that isn't guard has already begun slitting their own wrists.
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Post by: AresX8
Voodoo Boyz wrote:I wasn't really down on the Orks for 6th, until today when I saw the "Challenge" thread, which is a huge, HUGE nerf to hidden Power Klaw Nobz in Boyz mobs, which is the absolute staple of the Ork list.
Now, I see a big Nob Biker unit, with "Necrork Allies", Lootas, and maybe some more Nob Bikers.
MANz appeared to be a really nice winner, but I think Battlewagons are dead in a tournament environment where Necrons exist.
The Kan Wall may be pretty good still when backed up by Lootas and Shootas, but with the huge nerf to PK Nobz in Boyz squads, I'm not that certain they can be relied on anymore once we hit CC.
If they have a character that can kill the Nob, then send two mobs at the unit you want to assault then. They can only issue a challenge on a character once per combat and they only Overwatch one unit. This allows you to have the other unit's Nob be free to krump away.
I'm changing up my Wagon list to now have Shootas and Dakkajets. Here's the changes I made:
- Dropped Ghaz (RIP you badass  )
- Dropped Grots since they won't be as hard to take off an objective.
- Added a Mega Armored Boss. Screw you power weapons!
- Added 2 Dakkajets with extra Supa Shoota and Fighta Ace.
- Swapped all of my Sluggas for Shoota Boyz.
Still tweaking the point costs, so I won't post it yet.
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Post by: Jag_Calle
I actually imagine blitza bommers (stuka?) will be quite good in this new environment.. Though all those cheap autocannon aa guns will need to be silenced asap... Str7 +2d6 ap will put the hurt on alot of vehicles, including landraiders and russes, whilst the suupa shoota is allowed to blast at another target the same turn, with a decent bs...
I'm considering running 2, along with a group of 3-5 koptas with rokkits and 3-4 bigbomms, instead of the 2x2 koptas with rokkits and a pk, and 3 rokkit buggies that I usually run...
Still pissed about the "no charging from reserves" though...
I hope they Errata something decent for snikrot soon, as choosing table edge just isn't worth the lack of a pk, nor his points atm..
I noticed something in the rulebook yesterday, that I want confirmation on, as I might be misundersranding it due to wishfull thinking...
Looking at the summary for the assault phase near the end of the book, it seems like we'll be able to consilidate, after charging a vehicle (wether it's destroyed or not at the end), as we're not locked in combat with it??
Am I reading this right?
//Calle
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Post by: tgjensen
Voodoo Boyz wrote:I wasn't really down on the Orks for 6th, until today when I saw the "Challenge" thread, which is a huge, HUGE nerf to hidden Power Klaw Nobz in Boyz mobs, which is the absolute staple of the Ork list.
Only if you charge something that has a character capable of reliably killing the Nob - otherwise the Nob will likely wipe out your opponent's character, and the fighting will go on for another round. Issuing a challenge can be a legitimate stalling tactic like that (and it works for you too!), but otherwise just be a little more careful who you assault.
In general characters and troops with special weapons are more vulnerable now, with new wound allocation and snipers around. That's just the new metagame, and it doesn't just affect orks. Marines with special weapons like meltaweapons are going to be popular sniper targets too.
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Post by: Jidmah
Leth wrote:Okay, so on the turn the ork player charges he gets FNP, on the opponents turn he doesnt first. Okay simple enough. Could you point it out to me in the rulebook where it says that, just so I can tell my opponents and have a solid rule to back it up?
Rule of cool always is a tactical asset in the same way as morale is a tactical asset. Rule of cool increases your morale through increased enjoyment with your army. Morale also increases your tactical abilities(well it does for me anyway), I know the number of times I make tactical mistakes is when my morale is broken. So in essence it should be considered at the very core of any tactical discussion. Then again I am going to have season one of G.I.Joe in the background while I build and paint my storm talons, so what do I know.
Free attacks are free attacks IMO. Auto hits are basically two free attacks(assuming similar weapon skill) at base strength if you want to think of it that way.
Jag_Calle wrote:I actually imagine blitza bommers (stuka?) will be quite good in this new environment.. Though all those cheap autocannon aa guns will need to be silenced asap... Str7 +2d6 ap will put the hurt on alot of vehicles, including landraiders and russes, whilst the suupa shoota is allowed to blast at another target the same turn, with a decent bs...
I'm considering running 2, along with a group of 3-5 koptas with rokkits and 3-4 bigbomms, instead of the 2x2 koptas with rokkits and a pk, and 3 rokkit buggies that I usually run...
Still pissed about the "no charging from reserves" though...
I hope they Errata something decent for snikrot soon, as choosing table edge just isn't worth the lack of a pk, nor his points atm..
I noticed something in the rulebook yesterday, that I want confirmation on, as I might be misundersranding it due to wishfull thinking...
Looking at the summary for the assault phase near the end of the book, it seems like we'll be able to consilidate, after charging a vehicle (wether it's destroyed or not at the end), as we're not locked in combat with it??
Am I reading this right?
//Calle
Koptaz still have a terrible ld, making the vulnerable to tank-shocks, as before. At least they can no longer be pinned.
You do not get to consolidate after charging vehicles, it's in the vehicle rules.
tgjensen wrote:Voodoo Boyz wrote:I wasn't really down on the Orks for 6th, until today when I saw the "Challenge" thread, which is a huge, HUGE nerf to hidden Power Klaw Nobz in Boyz mobs, which is the absolute staple of the Ork list.
Only if you charge something that has a character capable of reliably killing the Nob - otherwise the Nob will likely wipe out your opponent's character, and the fighting will go on for another round. Issuing a challenge can be a legitimate stalling tactic like that (and it works for you too!), but otherwise just be a little more careful who you assault.
In general characters and troops with special weapons are more vulnerable now, with new wound allocation and snipers around. That's just the new metagame, and it doesn't just affect orks. Marines with special weapons like meltaweapons are going to be popular sniper targets too.
Agree. You don't get fearless wounds anymore, so combat resolution isn't as important anymore. Most squad leaders will not be able to handle a nob in one on one. 'eavy armor for nobz is mandatory now though.
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Post by: TedNugent
AresX8 wrote:
If they have a character that can kill the Nob, then send two mobs at the unit you want to assault then. They can only issue a challenge on a character once per combat and they only Overwatch one unit. This allows you to have the other unit's Nob be free to krump away.
Ohhh, so all I have to do is sacrifice my Furious Charge and assault bonus and dedicate two units to assault everything every turn and I can use the second Nob to kill something? Wow, sounds like a great deal.
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Post by: Voodoo Boyz
TedNugent wrote:AresX8 wrote:
If they have a character that can kill the Nob, then send two mobs at the unit you want to assault then. They can only issue a challenge on a character once per combat and they only Overwatch one unit. This allows you to have the other unit's Nob be free to krump away.
Ohhh, so all I have to do is sacrifice my Furious Charge and assault bonus and dedicate two units to assault everything every turn and I can use the second Nob to kill something? Wow, sounds like a great deal.
I'm with Ted on this one. A Marine with a PF Sarge challenges, both the Nob and the PF Sarge are going to die, but the loss of the Nob hurts way more than the loss of the Sarge.
The heavy lifting just got shifted away from Boyz mobs, I think it's going to Nob Bikers. I think large Shoota units still have a place, they just can't handle any and everything like they could before. Lootas are fantastic-er this edition, so big Mobs of them just make fliers pee their pants.
Possibly the best thing for Orks is that not everything will be in Transports anymore, so all of our massive anti-infantry power can really come into play.
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Post by: mrfantastical
So I have an idea that I haven't seen covered yet.
What about lootaz in a Battlewagon? Now they can fire even if the vehicle moves.
43836
Post by: Bacms
It has been covered already. They were always great so they just become slightly greater
55441
Post by: WaaaghGruzkull
Why are you losing furious charge? You only lose it when your one assaulting unit charges two opponent units, if two units charge one its not and uneven charge and you still get the bonus.
I play a boyz centric army and after a few games this weekend I dunno what to do to really compensate for the changes yet. I had one squad roll snake eyes when I needed 4 so they lost a charge after they lost 7 to overwatch. The challenges were good and bad, I'm still on the fence. Most of the time the nobz came out over other sarges, however against more hardy units they murdered the nob and squashed the rest of the boyz. Where as before the boyz were really extra wounds for the pk.
So far random charges and overwatch are making me a sad puppy......=(
On another hand I have seen many people talking about shelving Ghazzy, his Waaagh still gives him a 2+ invul so he is still a good guy to have around partically nasty stuff, plus 7 attacks at str 10 is nothing to sneeze at.
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Post by: AresX8
TedNugent wrote:AresX8 wrote:
If they have a character that can kill the Nob, then send two mobs at the unit you want to assault then. They can only issue a challenge on a character once per combat and they only Overwatch one unit. This allows you to have the other unit's Nob be free to krump away.
Ohhh, so all I have to do is sacrifice my Furious Charge and assault bonus and dedicate two units to assault everything every turn and I can use the second Nob to kill something? Wow, sounds like a great deal.
You misread Disordered Charge. Disordered Charge is only when one unit is multi-assaulting units. Sending 2 different units at one unit does not cause Disordered Charge to trigger.
52054
Post by: MrMoustaffa
TedNugent wrote:KingCracker wrote:
Thats so not Orky, but is making me chuckle anyways. I keep seeing this in my head
OI!!! Look out Powa Klaw Nob! Ders a bullet headin roight fer ya!
*leaps in the path to save PK nob*
OI!!!! U's got ta be more careful! MOAR BULLETS BOSS!!!!!!
*leaps infront of more bullets*
lol
Seriously. That's gotta be the most silly rule they've come up with.
"Look out Power Klaw Nob!" that's classic
"Look at it dis way. Why should Oi have ta take a rokkit to da face, when I can just pick up dis weedy git and make him get hit instead?"
In that light, I think it's one of the orkiest rules ever. Orks aren't stupid. They see a rocket heading towards them, and they know that's gonna hurt. So they grab the guy next to him and makes him take the hit instead. And then that nob gets mad and throws him in front, and the circle of orkiness is complete
Also, for the guy asking about why i had 2 bosspoles, yeah it was mainly for redundancy. The other reason was that was almost all the nobs i had, so I kind of just fielded them with what they had on them. Not the most optimized setup, but it was just for a friendly game, so i didn't care. That painboy is mandatory though, cybork and fnP saved my butt so many times it isnt even funny
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Post by: Jidmah
WaaaghGruzkull wrote:Why are you losing furious charge? You only lose it when your one assaulting unit charges two opponent units, if two units charge one its not and uneven charge and you still get the bonus.
I play a boyz centric army and after a few games this weekend I dunno what to do to really compensate for the changes yet. I had one squad roll snake eyes when I needed 4 so they lost a charge after they lost 7 to overwatch. The challenges were good and bad, I'm still on the fence. Most of the time the nobz came out over other sarges, however against more hardy units they murdered the nob and squashed the rest of the boyz. Where as before the boyz were really extra wounds for the pk.
So far random charges and overwatch are making me a sad puppy......=(
On another hand I have seen many people talking about shelving Ghazzy, his Waaagh still gives him a 2+ invul so he is still a good guy to have around partically nasty stuff, plus 7 attacks at str 10 is nothing to sneeze at.
The reason to pay 100 points upgrade over a regular warboss is not him hitting like a mag-train, but the guaranteed 6" run. With that gone, he really isn't worth his points, especially considering that you can get two warbosses instead at 2k points.
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Post by: Leth
I think cheap sacrifice units might be a good strategy in this edition that can eat overwatch for the other units
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Post by: Jidmah
Why? Even when charging head-long into 40 guardsmen, you will lose about 4 orks. Marines will obviously cause a lot less casualties. No unit suddenly turned into purifiers.
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Post by: labmouse42
PipeAlley wrote:Fafnir wrote:Really annoyed about what they've done with reserves.
I really, really, really like Snikrot and his boyz, but now they're complete garbage. The only positive thing to come out of it is that there'll be more room in my case, knowing that I can leave my kommandoes back home when I leave town after the summer.
100% agree. Poor Snik got quite the kick in the short pants!
Snikrot has one real role now -- to ensure that your army can get 'linebreaker' if you don't have any other way of doing that with your list. If your opponent can get 'linebreaker' and you can't, then you have given up 1 VP on 5/6 of the missions.
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Post by: magodedisco
Played a game last night with two huge Nob Biker units with a Warboss in each of them. They are ridiculously good in 6th ed. Taking a 5+ Invul then another 5+ FNP from thunderhammer hits feels good... especially when the nob is no longer insta-killed! Vehicles being way easier to hit in melee makes an army like this very potent against vehicle armies as well.
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Post by: Bacms
So what kind of lists are planning to start testing now and which upgrades are you being mandatory?
From top of my head,
Burna on the Bigmek sounds they might worth be included
Eavy amour or better on nobs and IC seems mandatory
Meganobz seem to have the upper hand over normal nobz as it stands.
Gretchin might be even more important if running foot lists. I can see my self including a couple of units to bubble wrap the shoota boyz if going on foot. Deny charge and provide cover
Nobz in shoota boyz seem to be less effective due to challenges (haven't read this part so just making assumption based on what has been said). This can be somehow negated by having multiples squads charging the same unit. Maybe running smaller squads might be the way to go, without the fearless wounds they don't suffer as much?
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Post by: Jidmah
Can't agree to the last two. Why would you want to prevent your opponent from charging shoota boyz? They are one of the best overwatch units in the game, just let them come.
I also wouldn't listen to all the people claiming the sky is falling on nobz. They are just as useful as before, but they might die faster than before - just like any other special model in the game.
43836
Post by: Bacms
Jidmah wrote:Can't agree to the last two. Why would you want to prevent your opponent from charging shoota boyz? They are one of the best overwatch units in the game, just let them come.
I also wouldn't listen to all the people claiming the sky is falling on nobz. They are just as useful as before, but they might die faster than before - just like any other special model in the game.
Unless they are being charged by purifiers. And 40 shoots from a a boyz mob it is still only 1 wound again a space marine. I guess it can make a difference if we are talking about 5 man squads. But on the charge you get the +1attack +1S so gaining the charge overcomes the overwatch
18912
Post by: Tsuruki
You should add the new night fight rules as a pro in the first post!!
Heres how it goes:
Every game you get night fight on a roll of 4+. Then every game turn after first it will go away on 4+.
Night fight now does the following:
Units 36< away are invisible and cannot be hurt.
Units 24<36 away can be shot, but get +2 to cover saves.
Units 12<24 away get +1 to cover saves.
Units <12 away get no save bonus.
KFF is now an even bigger must than before, as it grants a reliable 3+/4+ cover save turn 1 if you re lucky enough to roll night fight.
42002
Post by: Kharrak
Why don't people just... not accept challenges with their nobs if the opponent character is scary? Without fearless wounds, boyz should be fine to cover for the nob. You won't kill as much in the first round of assault, but the notable increase in sustained attacks should allow boyz to make up the difference in following assault rounds.
I may be confused though - the rulebook has yet to be distributed locally, so I haven't read through the damned thing yet.
43836
Post by: Bacms
Kharrak wrote:Why don't people just... not accept challenges with their nobs if the opponent character is scary? Without fearless wounds, boyz should be fine to cover for the nob. You won't kill as much in the first round of assault, but the notable increase in sustained attacks should allow boyz to make up the difference in following assault rounds.
I may be confused though - the rulebook has yet to be distributed locally, so I haven't read through the damned thing yet.
Why take the nobz in the first pace then? The main reason for it to be there is he is scary since he is carrying a S8/9 AP2 weapon. He can kill almost the same number of units or more as the boyz on his own if we are talking about armoured opponents.
33033
Post by: kenshin620
Bacms wrote:
Why take the nobz in the first pace then? The main reason for it to be there is he is scary since he is carrying a S8/9 AP2 weapon. He can kill almost the same number of units or more as the boyz on his own if we are talking about armoured opponents.
Nobz are a reliable (ish) way for taking on AV14. Besides Deff rollas
39309
Post by: Jidmah
Bacms wrote:Kharrak wrote:Why don't people just... not accept challenges with their nobs if the opponent character is scary? Without fearless wounds, boyz should be fine to cover for the nob. You won't kill as much in the first round of assault, but the notable increase in sustained attacks should allow boyz to make up the difference in following assault rounds.
I may be confused though - the rulebook has yet to be distributed locally, so I haven't read through the damned thing yet.
Why take the nobz in the first pace then? The main reason for it to be there is he is scary since he is carrying a S8/9 AP2 weapon. He can kill almost the same number of units or more as the boyz on his own if we are talking about armoured opponents.
Because not every squad leader can reliably kill them. Actually, most can't.
Because squad leaders will often be dead before the rest of the unit.
Because boyz need a boss pole to stay on the board after losing fearless.
Because a PK can still smash walkers and MCs.
Because a PK can kill vehicles with ease.
Because challenging the nob will almost guarantee your opponent that he can't shot that mob next turn, no matter who wins the challenge.
Because you don't want to be the poor sod telling your nob that he can't come.
Enuff reasons?
37480
Post by: matphat
I think the Nob has gotten more complex as opposed to nerfed. You'll just have the think about him now.
This is also a great reason to load him up with wargear.
43836
Post by: Bacms
Jidmah wrote:Bacms wrote:Kharrak wrote:Why don't people just... not accept challenges with their nobs if the opponent character is scary? Without fearless wounds, boyz should be fine to cover for the nob. You won't kill as much in the first round of assault, but the notable increase in sustained attacks should allow boyz to make up the difference in following assault rounds.
I may be confused though - the rulebook has yet to be distributed locally, so I haven't read through the damned thing yet.
Why take the nobz in the first pace then? The main reason for it to be there is he is scary since he is carrying a S8/9 AP2 weapon. He can kill almost the same number of units or more as the boyz on his own if we are talking about armoured opponents.
Because not every squad leader can reliably kill them. Actually, most can't.
Because squad leaders will often be dead before the rest of the unit.
Because boyz need a boss pole to stay on the board after losing fearless.
Because a PK can still smash walkers and MCs.
Because a PK can kill vehicles with ease.
Because challenging the nob will almost guarantee your opponent that he can't shot that mob next turn, no matter who wins the challenge.
Because you don't want to be the poor sod telling your nob that he can't come.
Enuff reasons?
This actually made me laugh. I agree with almost everything you said. Still not sure it will actually kill most of the other squad leaders though. PF and power swords will give him a good run for the money. even if it strikes at the same initiative and you manage to kill him at the same times it kills you you squad is in my opinion more affect than the other one. But your reasons are enough for me keeping taking it.
Another advantage is that you can allocate wounds from characters so you can give him a big shoota and allocate wound to other characters.
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Post by: Jidmah
If the opponent has a powerweapon, he still misses half the time and doesn't wound every time. Most opponents only have 2 or 3 attacks, so them killing you is unlikely. If your opponent has a powerfist or other means to instant-death you, simply refuse. He might be gone after the boyz have done their work.
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Post by: kenshin620
Plus since ork mobs are usually big, you'll have at least 2 or so rerolls in a challenge for your nob
55441
Post by: WaaaghGruzkull
Jimdah, why are boyz not fearless? Did I miss the change to mob rule in the FAQ? Or am I missing something from the BRB?
37480
Post by: matphat
Hey all, if you have seen any errors on the front page, or have anything I need to add, please let me know.
PM is best.
39309
Post by: Jidmah
WaaaghGruzkull wrote:Jimdah, why are boyz not fearless? Did I miss the change to mob rule in the FAQ? Or am I missing something from the BRB?
They are no longer fearless if below 11 models or getting hit by a psychic power that removes fearless.
37480
Post by: matphat
Here is an interesting Nob point that may be worth mentioning.
Nobs are all Characters. That means every wound they inflict on a 6 to hit is a Precision Hit that the ORK player allocates to a legal model. Nobs are now effectively CC snipers.
(Can someone verify this?)
10347
Post by: Fafnir
If it says so in the appendix, then yes, that is certainly the case (don't have a ...version... of the rulebook with the appendix, so I can't say so myself).
Of course, if your target is a character themselves, they can just LOS it away anyway, but at least it puts the pressure on.
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Post by: l0k1
Yep its called precision strike.
19377
Post by: Grundz
matphat wrote:Here is an interesting Nob point that may be worth mentioning.
Nobs are all Characters. That means every wound they inflict on a 6 to hit is a Precision Hit that the ORK player allocates to a legal model. Nobs are now effectively CC snipers.
seems to be accurate, same with squads of paladins/nobs/ect.
At this point I would expect your nobs to be targeted, spending points on eavy armor or cybork is an auto-in
Question: I seem to remember you can't precision strike a model that you don't have LOS to (or is out of CC range) correct?
36718
Post by: Lovepug13
So are we saying an all nob mob........the slug gas and choppas can look out sir on the power klaws? That's pretty nice tbh if that is correct
21217
Post by: Jag_Calle
Didn't see this on the first page, so here goes:
Big guns just got better.
Check out the new rules for artillery.
Our grot crew manning them are now basicly toughness 7 when shot at
I'm SO going to get the extra 6 additional grot crew now..
And as casulties of barrages are taken from proximity to the hole of the blast template, along with our ammo runts, we should be able to "snipe" heavy/special weapons...
//Calle
50107
Post by: Silentspy22
Forgive me if this has been discussed before.
With this new hullpoints thingamajig, would a list of 6 trukks and 11 boyz with a nob be viable at all? And i don't mean at tournament level. More for a fun, friendly game.
21217
Post by: Jag_Calle
Oh, almost forgot...
There's still a good use for koptas...
Bombers. Can drop bomb, even when turboboosting for the jink save, and due to the new blastmarker rules, we should actually be able to cover and kill enugh enemies to make the bombs worth the cost. They can no longer be instagibbed by str 8, and KMBs could make them good armorhunters (ap2) once the bombs are dropped. Could someone do the math as to wich is best for anti-tank duty, the trusted twl-rokkits or the ap2 KMB?
//Calle
9217
Post by: KingCracker
Jidmah wrote:WaaaghGruzkull wrote:Why are you losing furious charge? You only lose it when your one assaulting unit charges two opponent units, if two units charge one its not and uneven charge and you still get the bonus.
I play a boyz centric army and after a few games this weekend I dunno what to do to really compensate for the changes yet. I had one squad roll snake eyes when I needed 4 so they lost a charge after they lost 7 to overwatch. The challenges were good and bad, I'm still on the fence. Most of the time the nobz came out over other sarges, however against more hardy units they murdered the nob and squashed the rest of the boyz. Where as before the boyz were really extra wounds for the pk.
So far random charges and overwatch are making me a sad puppy......=(
On another hand I have seen many people talking about shelving Ghazzy, his Waaagh still gives him a 2+ invul so he is still a good guy to have around partically nasty stuff, plus 7 attacks at str 10 is nothing to sneeze at.
The reason to pay 100 points upgrade over a regular warboss is not him hitting like a mag-train, but the guaranteed 6" run. With that gone, he really isn't worth his points, especially considering that you can get two warbosses instead at 2k points.
Agreed, you can get 6 str 10 attacks on the charge with a normal boss, AND 2+ (granted its not INV for a full turn but still) AND a cybork 5+ for much much cheaper. Im seriously considering running a Megaboss with some MANz AND a biker boss, in my builds. I want the Megaboss to run around with a unit of MANz for that nice kick, as well as the obvious benefits of a T6 boss zipping around the field giving the middle finger to Dreads and tanks, not to mention to be a bullet magnet
55441
Post by: WaaaghGruzkull
Fair enough, maybe my love affair for Ghazzy is clouding my judgment!
I've always been dissapointed with the performance of bikes nobz, they are just so much more expensive though the new rules may help.
44531
Post by: Agent_Tremolo
Silentspy22 wrote:Forgive me if this has been discussed before.
With this new hullpoints thingamajig, would a list of 6 trukks and 11 boyz with a nob be viable at all? And i don't mean at tournament level. More for a fun, friendly game.
Some things for trukk runners:
- Believe it or not, despite the massive changes in vehicle damage Ramshackle hasn't been dealt with in the FAQs. I played my trukkspam list last sunday and had to reach an agreement with my opponent so as how to interpret it under 6th edition rules. As the rule is worded now, ramshackle only applies when a penetrating hit is achieved, and 'wrecked' or 'explodes!' are rolled in the damage table, what causes massive inconsistences with the new rules.
We agreed to roll on the ramshackle table for each result of 'explodes' in the damage table. For the sake of fair play, I also conceded to roll when the trukk ran out of HPs, considering it the equivalent of rolling a result of 'wrecked' in the old table.
- On the plus side, explosions are less dangerous to boarded units thanks to the Ramshackle rule.
- HPs made trukks slightly more resilient, as they negate the potentially devastating effects of glancing open topped vehicles. However, taking glances on AV10 is extremely easy, so watch out. Those Hull Points will be gone fast.
- The trukk's mobility also allows for a strategy that might be used to counter both overwatch and challenges: Move them in pairs, spot isolated units and assault them with both mobs simultaneously. One of your mobs will almost assuredly do nothing, if its not massacred in the process. The other will have free rein to krump and smash unbothered by the new rules. Just like the old days...
- Buggies are still a must, but Dakkajets (and maybe lootas in a wagon) are something to be considered. Dakka is more needed in 6th than ever before. Automatically Appended Next Post: Jag_Calle wrote:Could someone do the math as to wich is best for anti-tank duty, the trusted twl-rokkits or the ap2 KMB?
Keep the rokkits!
Twin-linked, cheaper and not prone to sudden bursts of Gets Hot!. In all a better investment.
53708
Post by: TedNugent
Look at it this way with Biker Nobs: their only weakness used to be Strength 8 shooting. Now you have 2 wounds and a 5+ FNP save against Strength 8 shooting.
The impact hits are cute, but the above is what's really extraordinary.
A unit of Longfangs or Psyfledreads could have theoretically massacred hundreds of points of Nobs with focused fire. Now - they can't. Nothing can, short of Railgun barrages - which are considerably more expensive, mind.
Think about that for a second. You can get hit with a Thunder Hammer and get an extra 5+ save and still have another wound left over if that fails.
20173
Post by: kowbasher
TedNugent wrote:
Think about that for a second. You can get hit with a Thunder Hammer and get an extra 5+ save and still have another wound left over if that fails.
I...I'm going to need a minute. This is beautiful.
55441
Post by: WaaaghGruzkull
Time to start converting some nobs bikers!
37480
Post by: matphat
WaaaghGruzkull wrote:Time to start converting some nobs bikers!
Luckily I have 12 sitting on the sprue ready to build.
=D
24409
Post by: Matt.Kingsley
hmm, well at least gitfindas no longer allow you to pre-measure, as the rulebook has that as part of the core rules
now they ignore cover!
but are they worth it?
33033
Post by: kenshin620
Matt.Kingsley wrote:hmm, well at least gitfindas no longer allow you to pre-measure, as the rulebook has that as part of the core rules
now they ignore cover!
but are they worth it?
Unfortunately imo no
Yea they can take on MEQs or even TEQs if they're lucky, but I'd rather have their points worth on lootas
9217
Post by: KingCracker
Matt.Kingsley wrote:hmm, well at least gitfindas no longer allow you to pre-measure, as the rulebook has that as part of the core rules
now they ignore cover!
but are they worth it?
Sad to say not really. I was SERIOUSLY hoping that the git finda would give +1 BS or TL the weapon. But no. As always, if your going to run Gitz, might as well make it a 2k point game because they are going to murder some points
8520
Post by: Leth
I want to try em with more dakka could put the hurt on against some of the cover saves you can get nowadays. Cover isn't as nerfed as people think
53708
Post by: TedNugent
The problem with Flash Gitz is so much of their points cost goes towards survivability and assault viability that they really don't put out much firepower cost for cost.
36940
Post by: Anvildude
The problem with Flash Gitz is that they're Nobz, but nobody remembers that.
Especally with the new Allocation rules, they're equally as survivable as a basic Nob Mob, just with an emphasis on range instead of melee. I always run them with full upgrades, myself, because you're then getting 2/3 chance to ignore MEq armour, and a 1/2 chance to ignore Termie armour- and now they won't even get cover saves- which means Defensive grenades do nothing, btw. More Dakka gives you that extra shot, and Shootier means you're wounding most things on 2's.
I definitely think they're for armies over 2000 points, though, both because of their cost, and because you can now run a couple of squads of Gits in a couple of Battlewagons or Looted Wagons with the expanded FoC- something that a lot of folks said would make them worth it in the old edition.
52802
Post by: Goresaw
I think Trukks are better. I would still take battlewagons 90% of the time because the boyz inside the trukkz are not better.
Depending on your interpretation, trukks still explode most of the time (and honestly, who actually ever has a trukk alive in turn 2 ), so you're pretty much automatically sending a boyz squad into the fray without fearless (which just got REALLY good).
Also, against MEQs you still need a decent squad size to make an effective unit. After a round of combat with anything that wouldn't already fold in hand to hand against something less dangerous than a boyz mob, you probably will only be left with 5-6 orks. Thats really not enough to charge into another squad of fresh marines. The 20 man squads that ride in wagons are superior in every single way.
15283
Post by: tgjensen
Anvildude wrote:The problem with Flash Gitz is that they're Nobz, but nobody remembers that.
Especally with the new Allocation rules, they're equally as survivable as a basic Nob Mob, just with an emphasis on range instead of melee.
Regular Nobs mobs are all characters, but Meganobz and Flash Gits are not, unfortunately.
39309
Post by: Jidmah
tgjensen wrote:Anvildude wrote:The problem with Flash Gitz is that they're Nobz, but nobody remembers that.
Especally with the new Allocation rules, they're equally as survivable as a basic Nob Mob, just with an emphasis on range instead of melee.
Regular Nobs mobs are all characters, but Meganobz and Flash Gits are not, unfortunately.
Yup, they both should have been. But Badrukk is a character, can reroll a bunch of his hits, and now ignores cover. Every 6 you roll to hit (which is half your shots, due to BS2) with da Kapt'n will mean a S7 on whoever you dislike most, only invul saves allowed.
So a minimal unit with Badrukk might actually be worth their points. His Gold Toof armor also makes him vicious in challenges.
I also ran my Hyenas (5 nob bikers+warboss) yesterday, they pretty much disassembled an entire army. Guess what? You get to allocate all hit rolls of 6 they do with their 18 TL Dakka gun shots. They died a glorious death to a now extremely hard to stop vindicator though. That stupid thing was the last opposing model remaining, it simply refused to die and kept pulverizing stuff until the game ended. Even dodged a biltza-bommer flying straight into it. They no longer roll over to a glance, and they hit all vehicles at full strength, even if they scatter.
I'm so going to loot one as allies.
23066
Post by: mrwhoop
Concerning the rules for Artillery, I don't think the grots are going to be T7 as that's the gun model's stats. You would need majority model toughness or a grot for every gun: no more. So to the poster wanting a bunch of grots, it'll hurt before it gets better. Also, the opponent could shoot at the artillery side and that would get removed first leaving a bunch of grots and no cannons to shoot.
A good change up but still needs some thought in execution.
21217
Post by: Jag_Calle
I'm quite sure it says you use the artillery pieces toughness for the crew when shot at, will toss a page reference in a couple of minutes...
23066
Post by: mrwhoop
You would be correct sir, use the guns T if there is at least one left. I need to keep re-reading this thing. I'm up to the 4th re-read and just now caught that relic blades aren't listed.
21217
Post by: Jag_Calle
Here we go, page 46: "shooting at artillery: if shootting at an artillery unit, the tougness of the guns is allways used whilst atleast one gun remains. Any wounds that are caused are still allocated to the closest model first.".
Just cottonwrap your kannons/lobbas with your 15 grots and herder... I'm not saying they can survive dedicated fire.
Throughout 4th and 5th my lobba and kannon batteries have reaped a bloody harvest, but they've allways been vulnerable to stray fire, say IG mortars, pistol shots from deepstrikers, a rhinos stormbolter...
I'm just saying that the enemy will actually allocate resources to take them out now. More resources than the 100pts the battery costs. And it's in the rear of your deployment, so they'll have to get through the rest of your army to get there...
39309
Post by: Jidmah
Uh, reread the artillery rules? As long as at least one gun is alive, everyone uses T7.
edit: Meh, missed next page.
53504
Post by: Dribble Joy
Barrage weapons take casualties from closest to the centre of the blast too, so lobbas will be great for taking out special weapons/characters.
9217
Post by: KingCracker
I was thinking about my army build while working on my Bikerboss yesterday. I hate to admit it, but Ive decided that Im not going to use rokkit buggies, in favor or a squadron of koptas. That way I can stick my Boss in with them so he wont be shot at while moving, and then presto, he will pop off and they can go their separate ways. The koptas will pump rokkits into whatever, and the boss will continue to make mince meat of vehicles/dreads/whatever. Man, seriously, Im so excited that he is now a full time T6 model! WHOHHOOOO!!!
39309
Post by: Jidmah
If you do that, have a look at the hit&run rules. They now share it with everyone that joins the unit
55441
Post by: WaaaghGruzkull
Can he join deffkoptas? Aren't they two seperate unit types?
60430
Post by: Da yella 'eads
Yeah, looks like biker bosses are stronger now than in 5th...
Pros:
- Permanent T6 (no more IK from powerfists etc. - great for challenging ICs and taking on dreads)
- Can re-roll 1 to hit, wound or save for every 5 watchers in the unit when in combat with a single enemy - again, great for challenges
- On a roll of 6 to hit can choose who is wounded - very useful for sniping with twin-linked dakkaguns!
- Vehicles are now much easier to hit in CC (only 3+ to hit a moving vehicle)
- Penetrating hits now count as 2 wounds for the purposes of combat resolution
- Has Look Out Sir on a 2+ save (a good reason to keep da boss with his mates and not on his own?)
- Bikes ignore terrain when charging (unless its an Aegis defence line) (is this correct??)
- Can use bike armour for a 4+ save vs. a failed dangerous terrain test
- Can use his I4 during a sweeping advance
- Hammer of wrath grants an I10 S5 AP- automatic hit when assaulting
- Overwatch makes the kombi-skorcha quite a useful deterrent to assaulting units (esp. if they have 4+ armour or worse)
Cons
- No more turboboost 3+ cover save
- No more skilled rider for getting through terrain (used to fail on 1/36, now 1/12 using the bike armour to save)
- Can be targeted by snipers and ICs (but remember the 2+ Look Out Sir)
Overall Biker bosses are looking even more effective to me
Any other pros/cons to biker bosses in 6th?
20173
Post by: kowbasher
I know everyone is excited about the buff to bikes and such, but did anyone else catch the buff to Tankbustas?
Page 42 - Tankbustas, Glory Hogs.
Change the second two sentences to read "They must always attempt to shoot at and/or charge an enemy vehicle if there is one in light of sight and range. If there is no visible vehicle target in range, the tankbustas may select a target as normal."
Notice that the vehicles have to be in LOS and in Range as well to be a target! Combined with pre-measuring we'll have a measure of control on the unit that we haven't had in a long time. No more being kited around by that sacerfical rhino off to the side in LOS. Gonna dust off my mob and start running them more often I think!
17671
Post by: PipeAlley
Da yella 'eads wrote:Yeah, looks like biker bosses are stronger now than in 5th...
Pros:
- Permanent T6 (no more IK from powerfists etc. - great for challenging ICs and taking on dreads)
- Can re-roll 1 to hit, wound or save for every 5 watchers in the unit when in combat with a single enemy - again, great for challenges
- On a roll of 6 to hit can choose who is wounded - very useful for sniping with twin-linked dakkaguns!
- Vehicles are now much easier to hit in CC (only 3+ to hit a moving vehicle)
- Penetrating ihts now count as 2 wounds for the purposes of combat resolution
- Has Look Out Sir on a 2+ save (a good reason to keep da boss with his mates and not on his own?)
- Bikes ignore terrain when charging (unless its an Aegis defence line) (is this correct??)
- Can use bike armour for a 4+ save vs. a failed dangerous terrain test
- Can use his I4 during a sweeping advance
- Hammer of wrath grants an I10 S5 AP- automatic hit when assaulting
- Overwatch makes the kombi-skorcha quite a useful deterrent to assaulting units (esp. if they have 4+ armour or worse)
Cons
- No more turboboost 3+ cover save
- No more skilled rider for getting through terrain (used to fail on 1/36, now 1/18 using the bike armour to save)
- Can be targeted by snipers and ICs (but remember the 2+ Look Out Sir)
Overall Biker bosses are looking even more effective to me
Any other pros/cons to biker bosses in 6th?
Stick him with BikerNobz for FNP, including failed DT tests, and +1 WS.
52054
Post by: MrMoustaffa
Lovepug13 wrote:So are we saying an all nob mob........the slug gas and choppas can look out sir on the power klaws? That's pretty nice tbh if that is correct
Looks like it. just remember LOS for them is on a +4. I used it to great effect sunday, and posted more about it earlier. If anything, I think nobs got BETTER this edition. They can snipe targets in CC and shooting, get free bodyguard rolls, have FNP at all times, the list goes on and on. I know I'm deffinitely going to be using them more.
37480
Post by: matphat
I've been wishing for a real reason to start taking Nobz. I guess 6th is the reason! I love the idea of Nob Mobz. And now I feel like they are as good as boyz.
Yey!
60222
Post by: Deadman Walking
Adding a boss to a unit of 10 Nob Bikers also makes them fearless until one model dies.
29514
Post by: doctorludo
kowbasher wrote:I know everyone is excited about the buff to bikes and such, but did anyone else catch the buff to Tankbustas?
Page 42 - Tankbustas, Glory Hogs.
Change the second two sentences to read "They must always attempt to shoot at and/or charge an enemy vehicle if there is one in light of sight and range. If there is no visible vehicle target in range, the tankbustas may select a target as normal."
Notice that the vehicles have to be in LOS and in Range as well to be a target! Combined with pre-measuring we'll have a measure of control on the unit that we haven't had in a long time. No more being kited around by that sacerfical rhino off to the side in LOS. Gonna dust off my mob and start running them more often I think!
Awesome. That old rule was simply daft. Maybe a wagon full of these guys will really do some damage.
39309
Post by: Jidmah
doctorludo wrote:kowbasher wrote:I know everyone is excited about the buff to bikes and such, but did anyone else catch the buff to Tankbustas?
Page 42 - Tankbustas, Glory Hogs.
Change the second two sentences to read "They must always attempt to shoot at and/or charge an enemy vehicle if there is one in light of sight and range. If there is no visible vehicle target in range, the tankbustas may select a target as normal."
Notice that the vehicles have to be in LOS and in Range as well to be a target! Combined with pre-measuring we'll have a measure of control on the unit that we haven't had in a long time. No more being kited around by that sacerfical rhino off to the side in LOS. Gonna dust off my mob and start running them more often I think!
Awesome. That old rule was simply daft. Maybe a wagon full of these guys will really do some damage.
You have also missed the second buff. You can now throw tankbusta bombs. Throw, as in 8" AP4 assault 1. Automatically Appended Next Post: Hum, it appears that meks (the small ones) are characters now. Taking three with big shootaz seems ridiculous in terms of character sniping to me. In addition to the big shootaz, dakka gunz and TL-shootaz on all our characters we could easily shoot down a lot of special models before they do anything.
20173
Post by: kowbasher
Jidmah wrote:doctorludo wrote:kowbasher wrote:I know everyone is excited about the buff to bikes and such, but did anyone else catch the buff to Tankbustas?
Page 42 - Tankbustas, Glory Hogs.
Change the second two sentences to read "They must always attempt to shoot at and/or charge an enemy vehicle if there is one in light of sight and range. If there is no visible vehicle target in range, the tankbustas may select a target as normal."
Notice that the vehicles have to be in LOS and in Range as well to be a target! Combined with pre-measuring we'll have a measure of control on the unit that we haven't had in a long time. No more being kited around by that sacerfical rhino off to the side in LOS. Gonna dust off my mob and start running them more often I think!
Awesome. That old rule was simply daft. Maybe a wagon full of these guys will really do some damage.
You have also missed the second buff. You can now throw tankbusta bombs. Throw, as in 8" AP4 assault 1.
I knew this was true, but really didn't put much thought into it until now, but I can now switch out a rokkit launcher for a tank hammer and not feel too bad about it as I gain at least one more ranged attack on a vehicle before the charge. I mean the tankbusta bombs always did the job right propa' but something just plain orky about tank hammers!
37480
Post by: matphat
I'm feeling pretty good about 6th and Orks now.
I think we came out ahead of the curve.
48805
Post by: Stoffer
matphat wrote:I'm feeling pretty good about 6th and Orks now.
I think we came out ahead of the curve.
I think you're right
Considering buying myself some orks now.
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Post by: matphat
You'll never look back. They are so much fun to play.
4264
Post by: shogun
Bacms wrote:So what kind of lists are planning to start testing now and which upgrades are you being mandatory?
From top of my head,
Burna on the Bigmek sounds they might worth be included
Eavy amour or better on nobs and IC seems mandatory
Meganobz seem to have the upper hand over normal nobz as it stands.
Gretchin might be even more important if running foot lists. I can see my self including a couple of units to bubble wrap the shoota boyz if going on foot. Deny charge and provide cover
Nobz in shoota boyz seem to be less effective due to challenges (haven't read this part so just making assumption based on what has been said). This can be somehow negated by having multiples squads charging the same unit. Maybe running smaller squads might be the way to go, without the fearless wounds they don't suffer as much?
I think you forget the loota dakka dakka wagon list  :
3 battlewagons with dakka and deffrolla's
3x 15 loota's go into the battlewagons with a few meks to repair those hullpoints and shooting with precision strikes
3 x dakkajets
fill up points with grots and sum counter attack units...
48698
Post by: Eiluj The Farseer
I am overall very happy with 6th Edition Orks... I still am working on the new rules but have played a few games and I really liked how my Dakka Jets and Lootas played. I used a biker boss... Our local tourney first game is 1500pts so I did not take any other bikes, but considering a biker mob to go with my boss. What I did in previous game was tag him with 30 boyz, then zoom off to charge a vehicle in cc when close enough.... I like the lootas in BW now since they can still snapfire.... and the meks in there make them more surviveable in vehicles.... yeah
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Post by: Stoffer
matphat wrote:You'll never look back. They are so much fun to play.
Yeah, Orks are what we have most of in our group though and I'd like us to have more different armies :( I'm moving away from BA and it's either Orks, GK or Necron.
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Post by: Ascalam
Play Orks.
The other two have a surfeit of ward, and high dosages can be lethal..
Seriously though, play what appeals to you. You'll enjoy yourself a whole lot more that way
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Post by: firmlog
Orks and Necrons... yeah, yeah.
I'm thinking of adding some necrons at least as allies to my collection. My ork army is massive but I do love the new models (which is also what got me into orks, bikes, burnas/lootas, trucks and battlewagons, dreads and kans). I've left my DA and eldar for good I think (though my DE may see a return).
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Post by: tgjensen
Jidmah wrote:You have also missed the second buff. You can now throw tankbusta bombs. Throw, as in 8" AP4 assault 1.
Where exactly do you find the rules for thrown Tankbusta bombs?
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Post by: Jag_Calle
Don't have access to the faq atm, but does Grotsnik have/give Rage now, or is he still a scalpel short of a medpack?
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Post by: matphat
Different rule. FAQ didn't change it either.
Same as it was in 5th.
No Rage.
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Post by: Anvildude
shogun wrote:
I think you forget the loota dakka dakka wagon list :
3 battlewagons with dakka and Moar Dakka and maybe deffrolla's
3x 15 loota's go into the battlewagons with a few meks to repair those hullpoints and shooting with precision strikes
3 x dakkajets
fill up points with [/color=blue]Shoota Boyz[/color]...
Stol- I mean, Fixed that for ya.
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Post by: rabidaskal
Is there hope for Kan wall in 6th? I've heard between the smaller KFF bubble (individual Kan models need to be within 6" to benefit) and the new squadron rules (stunned no longer downgraded to shaken) they list really took a hit. My question is, does anyone have any ideas to run them viably, because I really like the models
I was thinking running them as a semi-static gunline might work; 18 S6 blasts with no partials is pretty sweet. In this role they're more comparable to big gunz batteries, I'd say less survivable compared to effective multi-wound T7, but with the ability to redeploy and fight back in melee. Backed up by loota support and boyz mobs, they should do well, what do you guys think?
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Post by: TedNugent
I think that when people say "the Kan Wall is dead," they mean the configuration of using Kan Walls for a 4+ cover save is dead. That doesn't mean that you can't use Kans, or that they don't have a niche, that just means that they cannot be used en masse to confer a 4+ cover save to your army.
And so the question is how does a cadre of Kans with Grotzookas perform? Or how do they perform as a cheap unit of DCCWs? Or midfield BS3 Rokkits?
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Post by: matphat
TedNugent wrote:I think that when people say "the Kan Wall is dead," they mean the configuration of using Kan Walls for a 4+ cover save is dead. That doesn't mean that you can't use Kans, or that they don't have a niche, that just means that they cannot be used en masse to confer a 4+ cover save to your army.
And so the question is how does a cadre of Kans with Grotzookas perform? Or how do they perform as a cheap unit of DCCWs? Or midfield BS3 Rokkits?
This is exactly what I have been thinking. It's called a paradigm shift. Yes, the old Kanwall is more or less half the man it used to be, but that doesn't mean 9 Kans can't do something interesting in the game.
I believe "Kanwall" is dead, but I seriously doubt "Dredbash" is dead. I feel like Kans still have a lot to offer as tactical mobile gun platforms. With squad rules, wound allocation, hull points, and repair rules changed, I think we'll just have to think a bit and see what we come up with.
At the very least people need to quit thinking in terms of 2 hull points, and start thinking fo them in terms of 6 repairable hull points.
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Post by: whembly
Good points... now there's a reason to buy grot riggers on those Kans!
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Post by: Anvildude
I remember seeing this one guy posting a list for 2000 point games with 4 Big Meks, 4 Deffdredds (2 with 4xDCCW, 2 with double KMBs), and 12 Killa Kanz in 4 Squadrons- 3 Squads with rokkits/KMB and 1 with Grotzookas. Filled the rest with some min grot squads.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Though I think they'd benefit most from some min Burna mobs with max Meks.
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Post by: rabidaskal
Great to hear some positivity on Kans! I really love me my 6 kans + 3 looted sentinels
Quick question, if a Kan is in base contact with a BW, and there's a mek inside the wagon, does the mek count as being in base contact with the Kan and thus can effect repairs? If it does, then a wagon loaded with 12 lootas and 3 meks could be an effective mobile firebase / repair station.
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Post by: Ascalam
I doubt it, as the Mek has to be B2B, and he isn't if he's inside the BW, even if it is..
Be nice though.
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Post by: Dribble Joy
tgjensen wrote:Jidmah wrote:You have also missed the second buff. You can now throw tankbusta bombs. Throw, as in 8" AP4 assault 1.
Where exactly do you find the rules for thrown Tankbusta bombs?
You can throw krak grenades (well, one member of a squad can per turn instead of any other shooting weapon(s) they have).
The Ork Codex specifically states that Tankbusta Bombs are treated just like krak grenades but roll 2D6 penetration.
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Post by: shogun
Anvildude wrote:shogun wrote:
I think you forget the loota dakka dakka wagon list :
3 battlewagons with dakka and Moar Dakka and maybe deffrolla's
3x 15 loota's go into the battlewagons with a few meks to repair those hullpoints and shooting with precision strikes
3 x dakkajets
fill up points with [/color=blue]Shoota Boyz[/color]...
Stol- I mean, Fixed that for ya.
I will fix that for you.. 
my 1750 point list:
Big mek with KFF
Warboss biker for hunting OR Mega armour warboss for counterattack
15 loota's with 3 meks (either kustom mega blasta or big shoota's for precision strikes)
15 loota's with 3 meks (either kustom mega blasta or big shoota's for precision strikes)
15 loota's with 3 meks (either kustom mega blasta or big shoota's for precision strikes)
Battlewagon with 4 big shoota's, zappgun, extra armor and deffrolla (you need sumthing to kill off those armor 14 vehicles)
Battlewagon with 4 big shoota's, zappgun, extra armor and deffrolla
Battlewagon with 4 big shoota's, zappgun, extra armor and deffrolla
20 grots
10 grots
10 grots
dakkajet
dakkajet
dakkajet
I like this list... i like it a lot!
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Post by: tgjensen
Dribble Joy wrote:tgjensen wrote:Jidmah wrote:You have also missed the second buff. You can now throw tankbusta bombs. Throw, as in 8" AP4 assault 1.
Where exactly do you find the rules for thrown Tankbusta bombs?
You can throw krak grenades (well, one member of a squad can per turn instead of any other shooting weapon(s) they have).
The Ork Codex specifically states that Tankbusta Bombs are treated just like krak grenades but roll 2D6 penetration.
Right you are. Thanks.
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Post by: Jidmah
In addition, Tankbusta Bombs can also be found in the apendix for ranged weapons, including their 2d6 penetration, for anyone even thinking of yelling "loop hole!".
42002
Post by: Kharrak
Okay, now I apologise for playing the part of the ignorant (our rulebook is still half a week out prior to local release), but what are the requirements for a "character" in a unit?
I'm looking at my Grot Tanks (which I admittedly can't play with currently, without knowing how many hull points they have), and wondering if the Kommanda upgrade means that grot tank is a character. The ruling states that one grot tank can be upgraded to a Kommanda, mounting a second weapon, and allowing them to re-roll their dice for movement while he lives. Would that qualify? Being able to potentially allocate two KMB shots would be neat.
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Post by: Beatonator
I heard it mentioned somewhere that Zzap Guns auto-hit again, is it true? I havent seen anything mentioned in this thread, if they do that's a big bonus to bring back to them!
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Post by: Jidmah
Kharrak wrote:Okay, now I apologise for playing the part of the ignorant (our rulebook is still half a week out prior to local release), but what are the requirements for a "character" in a unit?
I'm looking at my Grot Tanks (which I admittedly can't play with currently, without knowing how many hull points they have), and wondering if the Kommanda upgrade means that grot tank is a character. The ruling states that one grot tank can be upgraded to a Kommanda, mounting a second weapon, and allowing them to re-roll their dice for movement while he lives. Would that qualify? Being able to potentially allocate two KMB shots would be neat.
Pretty easy, there is a list in the back of BRB like the one in the back of the codex, but with a (C) on characters. Ork characters are Warbosses, Big Meks, Weird Boyz, Nobz, Warbiker Nobz, 'ard Nobz, Pain Boyz, Meks and Runtherds - in addition to all named Characters.
Beatonator wrote:I heard it mentioned somewhere that Zzap Guns auto-hit again, is it true? I havent seen anything mentioned in this thread, if they do that's a big bonus to bring back to them!
The BRB doesn't even mention Zzap Guns. The FAQ also hasn't changed, which tells you the opposite.
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Post by: Beatonator
Jidmah wrote:The BRB doesn't even mention Zzap Guns. The FAQ also hasn't changed, which tells you the opposite.
Dang. I haven't got the 6th edition yet. I am hanging tight with 5th for a little while until I can save the cash to get 6th, but I'm reading all the info on 6 I can. Shame about the Zzap Guns!
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Post by: PipeAlley
rabidaskal wrote:Great to hear some positivity on Kans! I really love me my 6 kans + 3 looted sentinels
Quick question, if a Kan is in base contact with a BW, and there's a mek inside the wagon, does the mek count as being in base contact with the Kan and thus can effect repairs? If it does, then a wagon loaded with 12 lootas and 3 meks could be an effective mobile firebase / repair station.
I've got 3 Looted Sentinels as well. +3 old metal ones along with 3 new plastic ones. Realy easy to tell the mobs apart.
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Post by: Bacms
I will finally run my first game of 6th tonight thinking in running something like:
No Name (999pts)
1000pt Orks 6th Ed Roster (Standard)
* HQ (190pts)
* Big Mek (95pts)
Choppa, Cybork Body, Kustom Force Field
* Warboss (95pts)
'Eavy Armour, Power Klaw, Twin-Linked Shoota
* Elites (225pts)
* 5xLootas (75pts)
* 5xLootas (75pts)
* 5xLootas (75pts)
* Troops (350pts)
* Ork Boyz (175pts)
Big Shoota, 20x Shoota Boy
* Nob
'Eavy Armour, Big Shoota, Bosspole, Power Klaw
* Ork Boyz (175pts)
Big Shoota, 20x Shoota Boy
* Nob
'Eavy Armour, Big Shoota, Bosspole, Power Klaw
* Heavy Support (234pts)
* Big Gunz (78pts)
3x Kannon
6x Additional Grot Krew
* Big Gunz (78pts)
3x Kannon
6x Additional Grot Krew
* Big Gunz (78pts)
3x Kannon
6x Additional Grot Krew
Created with BattleScribe ( http://www.battlescribe.net)
Opinions?
33033
Post by: kenshin620
Kharrak wrote:Okay, now I apologise for playing the part of the ignorant (our rulebook is still half a week out prior to local release), but what are the requirements for a "character" in a unit?
I'm looking at my Grot Tanks (which I admittedly can't play with currently, without knowing how many hull points they have), and wondering if the Kommanda upgrade means that grot tank is a character. The ruling states that one grot tank can be upgraded to a Kommanda, mounting a second weapon, and allowing them to re-roll their dice for movement while he lives. Would that qualify? Being able to potentially allocate two KMB shots would be neat.
Problem is you're using forgeworld rules
Forgeworld has yet to update their rules (which I would imagine to take some time). Plus I do not think Vehicles can be characters (unless a walker? Correct me if I'm wrong)
42002
Post by: Kharrak
kenshin620 wrote:Kharrak wrote:Okay, now I apologise for playing the part of the ignorant (our rulebook is still half a week out prior to local release), but what are the requirements for a "character" in a unit?
I'm looking at my Grot Tanks (which I admittedly can't play with currently, without knowing how many hull points they have), and wondering if the Kommanda upgrade means that grot tank is a character. The ruling states that one grot tank can be upgraded to a Kommanda, mounting a second weapon, and allowing them to re-roll their dice for movement while he lives. Would that qualify? Being able to potentially allocate two KMB shots would be neat.
Problem is you're using forgeworld rules
Forgeworld has yet to update their rules (which I would imagine to take some time). Plus I do not think Vehicles can be characters (unless a walker? Correct me if I'm wrong)
Yeah waiting on that - but I was under the (incorrect) impression that there was a way to see if certain units were characters. Possibly encouraged by some memories from Pancake edition. Anyway, considering there is apparently a list, I'll have to wait until Forgeworld get their updates together. Ah well, opens up about 250pts in my lists until then.
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Post by: tgjensen
Quoting the rulebook, under Character Types, page 63: "Most characters are fielded in units from the start of the game, and represent squad leaders, such as a Space Marine Veteran Sergeant. They have their own profile, but do not have a separate entry. They are effectively just another trooper in their unit, with enhanced characteristics and perhaps a wider selection of weapons and wargear choices. Other characters, such as Mephiston of the Blood Angels, fight as units on their own. They are either mighty, or feared enough by their own kind, that they don't take to the battlefield with other warriors. Regardless of their potency, all follow the rules for characters."
For extra precision, there is also a reference list in the back where all types of units are listed, and this is where people see that Paladins, Nobz (but not Meganobz or Flash Gits) and Wolf Guard are characters. However, it seems very likely that any model with its own statline in a unit would qualify as a character - Painboys and Mekboys are characters as well, without being squad leaders.
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Post by: Anvildude
And I don't think there's a limit on what unit types can be characters. Bjorn and... Pasque? I think? (the IG Tank guy) are both vehicles.
Dag. allocated shots from a LRBT.
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Post by: Dribble Joy
Anvildude wrote:Dag. allocated shots from a LRBT.
Balls to that.
Punisher.
Edit:
Could use some input on this.
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Post by: youbedead
Orks got a huge buff from allies. Previously we could do gak all against land-raiders at range. Now we can bring some friendly broadsides or lovely contingent of looted demolishers
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Post by: Jidmah
Or simply smash it with a warboss hitting on 3+ or the now a lot less useless tanbustaz.
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Post by: Anvildude
Stop:
TANKHAMMERTIME!
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Post by: Ascalam
Don't forget that they can pepper the enemy with rokkits (snap fired) as the BW rattles along along too..
Tankbustas were always a favourite unit for me, and now they are actually effective as well
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Post by: Clang
youbedead wrote:Orks got a huge buff from allies. Previously we could do gak all against land-raiders at range. Now we can bring some friendly broadsides or lovely contingent of looted demolishers
This seems a useful approach. They'd only be 'allies of convenience', but offhand I don't see any likely rule disadvantages as a result.
And modellingwise, converting a walker with a looted TL railgun and missiles, counting as a Tau Broadside, seems tremendously cool
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Post by: Anvildude
That's the best part about Allies and Orks. You can always convert them to be Orky!
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Post by: Jidmah
Clang wrote:youbedead wrote:Orks got a huge buff from allies. Previously we could do gak all against land-raiders at range. Now we can bring some friendly broadsides or lovely contingent of looted demolishers
This seems a useful approach. They'd only be 'allies of convenience', but offhand I don't see any likely rule disadvantages as a result.
And modellingwise, converting a walker with a looted TL railgun and missiles, counting as a Tau Broadside, seems tremendously cool
We don't get any brothers in army, so allies of convenience is fine. We can't join their units, but that's about it for downsides.
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Post by: tgjensen
It was just pointed out on another forum that if one model in a unit has Slow and Purposeful, the entire unit has it. So stick a Mega-Armored Big Mek in front of a unit of Lootas, bam: Move and shoot, and 2+ armor save for everybody until he dies.
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Post by: Jag_Calle
Err, now that's just ridiculous... Here's hoping that particular loophole gets FAQd...
/Calle
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Post by: Da yella 'eads
For all you Tankbustas out there here's some Rokkit Launcha maths hammer. All numbers are for a single rokkit launcha shot....
Versus --- Average Hull Pts ---- Chance to wreck
AV14 ................. 0.06............................... 0.00
AV13 ................. 0.11 .............................. 0.02
AV12 ................. 0.17 .............................. 0.03
AV11 ................. 0.22 .............................. 0.05
AV10 ................. 0.27 .............................. 0.06
So, to remove all 3 hull points from an AV11 rhino in one turn you need, on average, 14 Tankbustas (14 * 0.22 = 3.08). Of course you may destroy it earlier if a shot gets a lucky explode roll. On the other hand, 15 Tankbustas firing at a land raider will (on average) only take 0.9 hull points off it.
Happy shooting...
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Post by: xxmintyfreshxx
With the new ork rules I see my ork army as a much shootier army than before. They don't seem so hell bent on getting into close combat now and that pleases me to no end. Ghaz seems kind of like nothing more than a big chunk of metal now though which kind of sucks.
I also could see flash gits being useful now as well as lootas because of snap shot and overwatch.
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Post by: PipeAlley
Anvildude wrote:That's the best part about Allies and Orks. You can always convert them to be Orky!
Or in my case, de-convert them. I bought 3 Leman Russ' 4 years ago before the BW lit came out and Orkified them. Now if I can get an HQ and a cheap IG Troop choice, I'm planning on running them as Basic LRBT's. Firepower + Range = Great Concept. And not that much more than a Looted Wagon with Boomgun and Rokkits surprisingly.
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Post by: UrgThraka
I have been an ork player for nearly 14 years and I have never seen them in such a bad position rules-wise.
The wounds taking from model in the front is HUGE for foot slogging armies because you will take several wound per turn to your forward most mobs. If you lose a whole line, that effectively reduces your movement in the last phase by 2-3 inches meaning that it take you an extra 2 turns or so at least to get the the enemy. This effectively ends foot slogging armies against ANY decent shooting.
Overwatch is a huge nerf to Orks overall. Wounds again are taken from the front and that means the possibility of further reducing the movement in the previous phase. I am sure as the game progresses more and more shooty armies will get a buff to their overwatch shooting. As it stands, a full space marine squad will get 20 shots on a charging Ork group that effectively means 1-2 deaths. That may not be the end of the mob but it could reduce the distance to the marines by enough to cause the charge to fail (which means a free BS1 shooting phase for that squad).
The new variable charge distance sounds good but it is yet another nerf (to me anyway). Yes, you can roll a 12 and yes that is AMAZING but no general in his right mind would try a charge at 12". You have less that a 3% chance to make it and that is IF your opponent doesn't kill all the models that are in range to charge. The safe thing to do is move within 6" and even then you could fail (resulting in more free shooting for your opponent).
The cover for hiding behind other units has been reduced to 5+. That coupled with the overall cover nerf basically is another hit against Orks. Orks with long range shooting units (read as Lootas) used cover to protect them against the long range shooting of other armies. Now the only cover that continues to be that effective is ruins. I guess I'll be taking aegis defense lines from here on out.
The Hull point change for vehicles are both a buff and a nerf as I see it. Yes, it makes it so your trukk has to be glanced 3 times to die but let's face it, more often than not trukks don't get glanced a lot and if they do it is due to mass str4 shoots (which probably spells death for it anyway). previously if a mass of str4 shots came in against a trukk you had a 50% change of the shots shaking the vehicle(if you took armor plates). Now it only takes 3 glances to kill the trukk outright. I have had a trukk survive 6 lascannon shots that all glanced, that cannot happen any more.
The nerf to FNP hurts Orks when it comes to any kind of Nob based list.
Stormboyz and bikes are awesome now with the init 10 auto-hit at the start of combat and it actually makes stormboyz worth taking.
The max assault distance is 25" not 27" because we do not get to pile out of the vehicle within 2" and then move 6". The vehicle moves 7"(with red paint), disembark 6", and charge 12". Keep in mind that thee is less than a 3% chance you will roll a 12 for charging (unless you waagh in which case you have a 5.5% chance). You have an equally good chance to roll a 2" charge.
The Snikrot nerf means that one of the only defenses orks had against shooty armies is gone because his squad WILL die the turn they come in.
Flash gitz would be great but they are expensive as hell and too short ranged to be worth it even at this point.
I have played over a half a dozen games now against a few different opponents. I haven't even come within 1/4 of the victory points they had. More often than not they get the victory points for first blood (and always get it if they get the first turn). the most disgusting army I have faced is a Tau army with Eldar allies. Eldrad as the HQ means 4 units can reroll misses in shooting and CC. Note that that reroll includes snap shots, he was killing an average of 6 orks per overwatch and that resulted in several failed assaults even at 6 inches.
I want to tell GW to take a long walk off a short plank. I cannot see a viable way for Orks to play this game any longer (at least until they get a codex).
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Post by: Bacms
Which list do you use? It will take a while for people to get used to the new rules and get some lists that do farewell. CC is nerfed in my opinion which hurts quite a lot but orks can play alternatives. Shooty orks with loads of long distance shooting will make a difference. Vehicles are still worth taking but you will probably have to play differently. It is no longer point and click because we need time to know what to do.
60430
Post by: Da yella 'eads
Stormboyz and bikes are awesome now with the init 10 auto-hit at the start of combat and it actually makes stormboyz worth taking.
The auto-hit impact hit is good but doesn't make stormboyz and bikes awesome. An S3 impact hit from a stormboy will only wound a MEQ 11% of the time - that's 1 dead marine for every 9 stormboyz. That's handy but probably only balances out the increased losses from Overwatch.
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Post by: mrfantastical
UrgThraka wrote:I have been an ork player for nearly 14 years and I have never seen them in such a bad position rules-wise.
The wounds taking from model in the front is HUGE for foot slogging armies because you will take several wound per turn to your forward most mobs. If you lose a whole line, that effectively reduces your movement in the last phase by 2-3 inches meaning that it take you an extra 2 turns or so at least to get the the enemy. This effectively ends foot slogging armies against ANY decent shooting.
Overwatch is a huge nerf to Orks overall. Wounds again are taken from the front and that means the possibility of further reducing the movement in the previous phase. I am sure as the game progresses more and more shooty armies will get a buff to their overwatch shooting. As it stands, a full space marine squad will get 20 shots on a charging Ork group that effectively means 1-2 deaths. That may not be the end of the mob but it could reduce the distance to the marines by enough to cause the charge to fail (which means a free BS1 shooting phase for that squad).
The new variable charge distance sounds good but it is yet another nerf (to me anyway). Yes, you can roll a 12 and yes that is AMAZING but no general in his right mind would try a charge at 12". You have less that a 3% chance to make it and that is IF your opponent doesn't kill all the models that are in range to charge. The safe thing to do is move within 6" and even then you could fail (resulting in more free shooting for your opponent).
The cover for hiding behind other units has been reduced to 5+. That coupled with the overall cover nerf basically is another hit against Orks. Orks with long range shooting units (read as Lootas) used cover to protect them against the long range shooting of other armies. Now the only cover that continues to be that effective is ruins. I guess I'll be taking aegis defense lines from here on out.
The Hull point change for vehicles are both a buff and a nerf as I see it. Yes, it makes it so your trukk has to be glanced 3 times to die but let's face it, more often than not trukks don't get glanced a lot and if they do it is due to mass str4 shoots (which probably spells death for it anyway). previously if a mass of str4 shots came in against a trukk you had a 50% change of the shots shaking the vehicle(if you took armor plates). Now it only takes 3 glances to kill the trukk outright. I have had a trukk survive 6 lascannon shots that all glanced, that cannot happen any more.
The nerf to FNP hurts Orks when it comes to any kind of Nob based list.
Stormboyz and bikes are awesome now with the init 10 auto-hit at the start of combat and it actually makes stormboyz worth taking.
The max assault distance is 25" not 27" because we do not get to pile out of the vehicle within 2" and then move 6". The vehicle moves 7"(with red paint), disembark 6", and charge 12". Keep in mind that thee is less than a 3% chance you will roll a 12 for charging (unless you waagh in which case you have a 5.5% chance). You have an equally good chance to roll a 2" charge.
The Snikrot nerf means that one of the only defenses orks had against shooty armies is gone because his squad WILL die the turn they come in.
Flash gitz would be great but they are expensive as hell and too short ranged to be worth it even at this point.
I have played over a half a dozen games now against a few different opponents. I haven't even come within 1/4 of the victory points they had. More often than not they get the victory points for first blood (and always get it if they get the first turn). the most disgusting army I have faced is a Tau army with Eldar allies. Eldrad as the HQ means 4 units can reroll misses in shooting and CC. Note that that reroll includes snap shots, he was killing an average of 6 orks per overwatch and that resulted in several failed assaults even at 6 inches.
I want to tell GW to take a long walk off a short plank. I cannot see a viable way for Orks to play this game any longer (at least until they get a codex).
Besides maybe meganobz, biker Nobz, and Warbosses, it seems like CC Orks is dead (which was 100% my play style). But I want to try a Nob army out before I rage sell my army off.
54112
Post by: Dr. What
Here's my 6th ed Ork list (version 0.1.0):
Big Mek - KFF, 'Eavy Armor, Cybork Body
Lootas X5
Lootas X5
Lootas X5
Boyz X 20 - All shootas, 2 Big Shootas, Nob with Bosspole (included in 20)
Boyz X 20 - All shootas, 2 Big Shootas, Nob with Bosspole (included in 20)
Boyz X 20 - All shootas, 2 Big Shootas, Nob with Bosspole (included in 20)
Deffkopta - TL Rokkit Launcha
Deffkopta - TL Rokkit Launcha
Dakkajet - Additional Supa Shoota, Fighta Ace
Battlewagon - 4 Big Shootas, Kannon, Grot Riggers
Battlewagon - 4 Big Shootas, Kannon, Grot Riggers
Battlewagon - 4 Big Shootas, Kannon, Grot Riggers
Automatically Appended Next Post:
The plan?
Advance 6" per turn unleashing so much dakka until you reach the objective.
Then, simply sit and shoot.
Assaulting is a last resort (though still viable, because they're Orks!) and if the opponent charges a mob, then it's going to take 40 BS1 shots then will get mauled by Orks!
Thoughts?
34390
Post by: whembly
tgjensen wrote:It was just pointed out on another forum that if one model in a unit has Slow and Purposeful, the entire unit has it. So stick a Mega-Armored Big Mek in front of a unit of Lootas, bam: Move and shoot, and 2+ armor save for everybody until he dies.
Whaaaat?
Does SnP confer Relentless to the unit?
15717
Post by: Backfire
UrgThraka wrote:
Overwatch is a huge nerf to Orks overall. Wounds again are taken from the front and that means the possibility of further reducing the movement in the previous phase. I am sure as the game progresses more and more shooty armies will get a buff to their overwatch shooting. As it stands, a full space marine squad will get 20 shots on a charging Ork group that effectively means 1-2 deaths. That may not be the end of the mob but it could reduce the distance to the marines by enough to cause the charge to fail (which means a free BS1 shooting phase for that squad).
The Hull point change for vehicles are both a buff and a nerf as I see it. Yes, it makes it so your trukk has to be glanced 3 times to die but let's face it, more often than not trukks don't get glanced a lot and if they do it is due to mass str4 shoots (which probably spells death for it anyway). previously if a mass of str4 shots came in against a trukk you had a 50% change of the shots shaking the vehicle(if you took armor plates). Now it only takes 3 glances to kill the trukk outright. I have had a trukk survive 6 lascannon shots that all glanced, that cannot happen any more.
The nerf to FNP hurts Orks when it comes to any kind of Nob based list.
I have played over a half a dozen games now against a few different opponents. I haven't even come within 1/4 of the victory points they had. More often than not they get the victory points for first blood (and always get it if they get the first turn). the most disgusting army I have faced is a Tau army with Eldar allies. Eldrad as the HQ means 4 units can reroll misses in shooting and CC. Note that that reroll includes snap shots, he was killing an average of 6 orks per overwatch and that resulted in several failed assaults even at 6 inches.
Did he use BRB powers or Eldar codex powers? Latter only work on Eldar units.
Orks actually benefit from Overwatch, because it can be pretty daunting prospect to charge large units of Shootas or Lootas. In general, whole Snapfire is buff to Orks.
8520
Post by: Leth
We cant point and click anymore but CC orks can still be quite strong. You just have to play them smarter(I know right). Use smaller units to protect your bigger ones, choosing your assaults in the correct order will be huge (IMO). Use a small squad of bikes to eat over watch, or something along those lines. Orks and Dark Eldar are the main ones that can assault out of their transports. Use that to our advantage. I am still assembling my ork army however I am excited for what we can do this edition.
That slow and purposeful thing is a nice catch, also now that run is separate from fleet S n P meganobs are not to shabby looking. I want to pick some up but a rumor or plastics next year has me hesitant.
60622
Post by: pepe5454
Please tell me we just missed and it's still there but in my first 6th edition game the biggest change that hurt me pretty bad was we couldn't find where it said units inside an exploding open topped vehicle get -1 on the strength of the explosion. After putting 15 lootas and a big mek in a battle wagon when it exploded I lost 11 lootas. Making me reconsider my battlewagons and after that for me trukks are looking even worse. More of a get where you are going asap dump you units out of the battlewagon so they don't explode on you. Really was thinking of mobile gun platforms with em.
806
Post by: Toreador
The -1 went away, so yeah, Str 4 hits. Though more often than not a vehicle will be wrecked from glancing hits before it explodes.
Close combat is still good for Orks. 30 boy mobz are hard for a lot of armies to contend with. Not only can they stand and shoot, but no fearless wounds makes them downright nasty. Pile in at every Init step makes more boyz get in CC quicker for more strikes. I was easily able to wear down a terminator squad and death company squad with the same 30 man ork unit. Eventually people will miss a few saves. It affects them more than me. The 2+ armour save is now king. Meganobz and Warbosses kitted out are hard to contend with. A Warboss kitted out and with a 30 man squad makes short work of most units. Ghazkull even kicks that up a notch being immune to ID. He can call a waagh! when he needs to be a 2+ Inv (dreads and termies), but most of the time his 2+ and 5++ works fine. 5 rerolls in a challenge after you have whittled down a unit with a character makes it almost a sure thing they are dead. Challenging until all the other units characters are dead makes it easier on your unit. There is a huge change to how we play, but I think we have the tools to be tough still. No vehicle is very reliable anymore, and we make short work of most in CC. Deffdreads and Kans have to watch out for things that can wound them in CC as they go down quick from loss of hullpoints. Will just have to change how you use them. Overall I am having fun playing the orks. Just have to reassess how we use our units. I was able to get off most charges, at an even longer range than I had before. A few failed, but so did a few for my enemy, which hurt them more than it did me. I think for now Stormboyz might be a replacement for Snikrot, but even Kommandos flanking can glance a vehicle to death from the rear rather easily. It is really a crazy new world.
53504
Post by: Dribble Joy
whembly wrote:tgjensen wrote:It was just pointed out on another forum that if one model in a unit has Slow and Purposeful, the entire unit has it. So stick a Mega-Armored Big Mek in front of a unit of Lootas, bam: Move and shoot, and 2+ armor save for everybody until he dies.
Whaaaat?
Does SnP confer Relentless to the unit?
Here's what the rule book says....
(Emphasis mine)
A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule cannot Run, Turbo-Boost, move Flat Out, perform Sweeping Advances or fire Overwatch. They can, however, shoot with Heavy, Salvo and Ordinance weapons, counting as stationary even if they moved in the previous Movement phase. They are also allowed to charge in the same turn they fire Heavy, Ordinance, Rapid Fire or Salvo weapons.
44531
Post by: Agent_Tremolo
Dribble Joy wrote:A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule cannot Run, Turbo-Boost, move Flat Out, perform Sweeping Advances or fire Overwatch. They can, however, shoot with Heavy, Salvo and Ordinance weapons, counting as stationary even if they moved in the previous Movement phase. They are also allowed to charge in the same turn they fire Heavy, Ordinance, Rapid Fire or Salvo weapons.
Only con I see is losing overwatch. But then, if you allow your Lootas to be charged, you're doing something wrong
pepe5454 wrote:Making me reconsider my battlewagons and after that for me trukks are looking even worse
Trukks still explode on S:3 due to ramshackle. Problem with them is that mobs of 12 are no longer the way to go with orks.
21217
Post by: Jag_Calle
Going to play my first 6th game tomorrow, been reading the brb 3 times, and leafed through it a couple of times now.
It's a 1k game against BA (thought we'd start small to get our feet wet.
I'm going to list my army, and give the plan, and what hopes I have for each unit:
Bigmekk, kff, pk,bp,ha
11 shootaboys, 1 bigshoota
Trukk w. Rokkit
Nob, pk, bp, ha
11 shootaboys, 1 bigshoota
Trukk w. Rokkit
I hope these lads can grab an objective, or force someone off one. Though I'm afraid they're a tad too few.
2 koptas, rokkits, bigbomms
I hope these get to bomb the enemy, whilst turbo boosting to a position where they can target rear armour.
Kommando nob, pk, bp, ha
11 kommandos, 2 rokkits.
Hopefully theyll end up in a good position to shoot rokkits at side/rear armour, maybe help the trukkaboys out in an assault, and atleast get point for hiding in the enemy dp.
Blitza bommer
Mainly there for me to tryout the flyer rules, and it'd be fun to bomb a furioso/deathcompany dread...
3 kannons, w. 1 extra crew, 3 ammo runts
Deffdread w.2 scorchas
Kannons will lend support where needed AT or anti-oersonel. The dread is there to fry and assault any drop podders that might try to get to the big gunz.
This might actually be the edition where I mount up... Earlier, I've gone heavy infiltrator 3 kommando squads, 2x3 koptas, 2 trukks, 3 buggies, and lobas+kannons supported by 3kans, 1dread and 25 shootaboys.
I think shoota boys in trukks/BWs might be the way to go now, as shotaboys+speed gives alot of versability. Supported by kannon/lobba artillery, blitza bommas, and a large unit of bombing rokkit koptas.
I'm hoping to try this Blitzkrieg style warfare out, with this 1k list, the only thing I'm iffy on is the dread, but I love my converted dread, and I want to see how a non kff supported dread holds up in this ed...
I will try to get a recap of the game up tomorrow night, or saturday, and try to describe my findings.
Wish me luck!
//Calle
36940
Post by: Anvildude
Here's an idea. In 2000 point games, take a Big Mek in Mega Armour (with extra Powerklaw!) and stick him in a min- Grot mob- along with 3 other Big Meks, one with KFF and 2 with Shokk Attakk Gunnnszzz, with all 3 of them toting Powerklaws and/or Burnas as well. SnP allows the SAGs to move and fire, and if you teleport yourself into combat, you have some hurty around.
Or, bubblewrap a single SAGMek in a unit of Meganobz.
21217
Post by: Jag_Calle
Oh, almost forgot. Can't get to my WD with the ork flyers atm, but does blitza bommers get the extra d6 against buildings aswell, or is it "just" against vehicles?
I might get pissed if I can't Stuka bomb a fortress of redemption...
56421
Post by: Gylen
Dribble Joy wrote:whembly wrote:tgjensen wrote:It was just pointed out on another forum that if one model in a unit has Slow and Purposeful, the entire unit has it. So stick a Mega-Armored Big Mek in front of a unit of Lootas, bam: Move and shoot, and 2+ armor save for everybody until he dies.
Whaaaat?
Does SnP confer Relentless to the unit?
Here's what the rule book says....
(Emphasis mine)
A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule cannot Run, Turbo-Boost, move Flat Out, perform Sweeping Advances or fire Overwatch. They can, however, shoot with Heavy, Salvo and Ordinance weapons, counting as stationary even if they moved in the previous Movement phase. They are also allowed to charge in the same turn they fire Heavy, Ordinance, Rapid Fire or Salvo weapons.
Look at page 39, regarding special rules and IC.
Special Rules
When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different
special rules fromthose of the unit. Unless specified in the rule
itself(as in the Stubborn special rule), the unit's special rules are not
conferred upon the Independent Character, and the Independent
Character's special rules are not conferred upon the unit. Special
rules that are conferred to the unitonly apply foraslong as the
Independent Character is with them.
60622
Post by: pepe5454
Gylen wrote:Dribble Joy wrote:whembly wrote:tgjensen wrote:It was just pointed out on another forum that if one model in a unit has Slow and Purposeful, the entire unit has it. So stick a Mega-Armored Big Mek in front of a unit of Lootas, bam: Move and shoot, and 2+ armor save for everybody until he dies.
Whaaaat?
Does SnP confer Relentless to the unit?
Here's what the rule book says....
(Emphasis mine)
A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule cannot Run, Turbo-Boost, move Flat Out, perform Sweeping Advances or fire Overwatch. They can, however, shoot with Heavy, Salvo and Ordinance weapons, counting as stationary even if they moved in the previous Movement phase. They are also allowed to charge in the same turn they fire Heavy, Ordinance, Rapid Fire or Salvo weapons.
Look at page 39, regarding special rules and IC.
Special Rules
When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different
special rules fromthose of the unit. Unless specified in the rule
itself(as in the Stubborn special rule), the unit's special rules are not
conferred upon the Independent Character, and the Independent
Character's special rules are not conferred upon the unit. Special
rules that are conferred to the unitonly apply foraslong as the
Independent Character is with them.
Would that not be covered by the part where it says A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule?
53504
Post by: Dribble Joy
And it can work the other way. A unit of meganobs can transfer SaP to a Big Mek with a SAG.
Or for that matter tag-teaming a Big Mek with a megaboss.
56421
Post by: Gylen
pepe5454 wrote:Gylen wrote:Dribble Joy wrote:whembly wrote:tgjensen wrote:It was just pointed out on another forum that if one model in a unit has Slow and Purposeful, the entire unit has it. So stick a Mega-Armored Big Mek in front of a unit of Lootas, bam: Move and shoot, and 2+ armor save for everybody until he dies.
Whaaaat?
Does SnP confer Relentless to the unit?
Here's what the rule book says....
(Emphasis mine)
A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule cannot Run, Turbo-Boost, move Flat Out, perform Sweeping Advances or fire Overwatch. They can, however, shoot with Heavy, Salvo and Ordinance weapons, counting as stationary even if they moved in the previous Movement phase. They are also allowed to charge in the same turn they fire Heavy, Ordinance, Rapid Fire or Salvo weapons.
Look at page 39, regarding special rules and IC.
Special Rules
When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different
special rules fromthose of the unit. Unless specified in the rule
itself(as in the Stubborn special rule), the unit's special rules are not
conferred upon the Independent Character, and the Independent
Character's special rules are not conferred upon the unit. Special
rules that are conferred to the unitonly apply foraslong as the
Independent Character is with them.
Would that not be covered by the part where it says A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule?
I suppose it would.
102
Post by: Jayden63
If all nobs are characters, then all biker nobs are characters, then a great deal of TL dakkagun damage will get to be allocated to specific models. Thats some pretty cool shooting and could greatly help reducing the more threatening aspects of whatever they were also going to charge.
30555
Post by: UrgThraka
Unless i missed something obvious in the codex all nobz are not characters. Only Nobz that lead squads of regular orks are the "character" of the squad. In a nob squad, one of the nobs can be a character but not all of them. The only unit i am aware of that gets that privilege is Paladins. Yay, for yet another case where the imperium gets all the perks.
35785
Post by: Avatar 720
All Nobs (bar Meganobs) are listed as Characters in the BRB, and so every Nob in a Nob squad is a Character, the same as Paladins.
60134
Post by: Hetelic
MrMoustaffa wrote:Lovepug13 wrote:So are we saying an all nob mob........the slug gas and choppas can look out sir on the power klaws? That's pretty nice tbh if that is correct
Looks like it. just remember LOS for them is on a +4. I used it to great effect sunday, and posted more about it earlier. If anything, I think nobs got BETTER this edition. They can snipe targets in CC and shooting, get free bodyguard rolls, have FNP at all times, the list goes on and on. I know I'm deffinitely going to be using them more.
This is wrong =/ Nobs only "count" as characters when they are an upgrade for the unit. eg, a nob in a boys unit. Nobs in a nob unit are not characters/ Sgts.
On the other hand, Mek's in a unit of lootas are characters, and can thusly assign any rolls of 6 to hit to a target model. Byebye, PF sgts ect.
54112
Post by: Dr. What
Anvildude wrote:Here's an idea. In 2000 point games, take a Big Mek in Mega Armour (with extra Powerklaw!) and stick him in a min- Grot mob- along with 3 other Big Meks, one with KFF and 2 with Shokk Attakk Gunnnszzz, with all 3 of them toting Powerklaws and/or Burnas as well. SnP allows the SAGs to move and fire, and if you teleport yourself into combat, you have some hurty around.
Or, bubblewrap a single SAGMek in a unit of Meganobz.
You can't have Mega Armor on a Big Mek if you want it to have a SAG or KFF.
34390
Post by: whembly
Hetelic wrote:MrMoustaffa wrote:Lovepug13 wrote:So are we saying an all nob mob........the slug gas and choppas can look out sir on the power klaws? That's pretty nice tbh if that is correct
Looks like it. just remember LOS for them is on a +4. I used it to great effect sunday, and posted more about it earlier. If anything, I think nobs got BETTER this edition. They can snipe targets in CC and shooting, get free bodyguard rolls, have FNP at all times, the list goes on and on. I know I'm deffinitely going to be using them more.
This is wrong =/ Nobs only "count" as characters when they are an upgrade for the unit. eg, a nob in a boys unit. Nobs in a nob unit are not characters/ Sgts.
On the other hand, Mek's in a unit of lootas are characters, and can thusly assign any rolls of 6 to hit to a target model. Byebye, PF sgts ect.
Incorrect... look at the back of the new rule book. It'll list Nobs as "Characters". There's no distinction that it must be a upgrade in a boyz squad vs the elite nob squad. Automatically Appended Next Post: Dr. What wrote:Anvildude wrote:Here's an idea. In 2000 point games, take a Big Mek in Mega Armour (with extra Powerklaw!) and stick him in a min- Grot mob- along with 3 other Big Meks, one with KFF and 2 with Shokk Attakk Gunnnszzz, with all 3 of them toting Powerklaws and/or Burnas as well. SnP allows the SAGs to move and fire, and if you teleport yourself into combat, you have some hurty around.
Or, bubblewrap a single SAGMek in a unit of Meganobz.
You can't have Mega Armor on a Big Mek if you want it to have a SAG or KFF.
But a base Big Mek in MegaArmour with Bosspole may be worth throwing in a 15 man Loota squad....
9217
Post by: KingCracker
Ive decided that Im going to run 5 deffkoptas along with my Boss (not sure if Ill keep him in the group during assaults or not, havnt read the rules for how to handle a different T IC in an assault) and they will all be stock, minus 1 that will have a buzzsaw as well. 15 TL str5 shots should do a number on many units before an assault.
While on the subject, how would that work having a biker boss in the group during assault? Does his T6 go away due to the rest of the unit being T5? Or is it still like 5th, where the attacks that were directed at him, used his T for rolling? Obviously if the attacks use his T6 in an assault, Ill just keep him with the koptas for obvious benefits. If not, Ill have to zip out of their unit before the shooting/assaults start
57920
Post by: stompygitz
For purposes of assault, what does the choppa count as? Just curious if there is any change with it.
39309
Post by: Jidmah
As choppas?
25232
Post by: mrfantastical
Da yella 'eads wrote:For all you Tankbustas out there here's some Rokkit Launcha maths hammer. All numbers are for a single rokkit launcha shot....
Versus --- Average Hull Pts ---- Chance to wreck
AV14 ................. 0.06............................... 0.00
AV13 ................. 0.11 .............................. 0.02
AV12 ................. 0.17 .............................. 0.03
AV11 ................. 0.22 .............................. 0.05
AV10 ................. 0.27 .............................. 0.06
So, to remove all 3 hull points from an AV11 rhino in one turn you need, on average, 14 Tankbustas (14 * 0.22 = 3.08). Of course you may destroy it earlier if a shot gets a lucky explode roll. On the other hand, 15 Tankbustas firing at a land raider will (on average) only take 0.9 hull points off it.
Happy shooting...
This is great.
I'd love to see this for lootas since my debate is Tankbustaz vs Lootas.
55654
Post by: dakkadakka brad
2.) KFF is now 5+
kff has always been 5+, it says it in the codex
37729
Post by: AresX8
stompygitz wrote:For purposes of assault, what does the choppa count as? Just curious if there is any change with it.
It's just a normal CCW.
dakkadakka brad wrote:2.) KFF is now 5+
kff has always been 5+, it says it in the codex
No it wasn't. In 5th, vehicles being obscured was a 4+ cover save as it was actually written in the rulebook.
42002
Post by: Kharrak
dakkadakka brad wrote:2.) KFF is now 5+
kff has always been 5+, it says it in the codex
5+ for infantry. Vehicles within 6" counted as obscured, therefore 4+. Ork FAQ (prior to 6th ed FAQ rewrite) clarified the matter further - vehicles within 6" got a 4+ save.
It is now 5+ for everything, including vehicles. As such, it lost a third of its effectiveness - thus the less than eager response to the news.
60430
Post by: Da yella 'eads
For all you Tankbustas out there here's some Rokkit Launcha maths hammer. All numbers are for a single rokkit launcha shot....
Versus --- Average Hull Pts ---- Chance to wreck
AV14 ................. 0.06............................... 0.00
AV13 ................. 0.11 .............................. 0.02
AV12 ................. 0.17 .............................. 0.03
AV11 ................. 0.22 .............................. 0.05
AV10 ................. 0.27 .............................. 0.06
So, to remove all 3 hull points from an AV11 rhino in one turn you need, on average, 14 Tankbustas (14 * 0.22 = 3.08). Of course you may destroy it earlier if a shot gets a lucky explode roll. On the other hand, 15 Tankbustas firing at a land raider will (on average) only take 0.9 hull points off it.
Happy shooting...
This is great.
I'd love to see this for lootas since my debate is Tankbustaz vs Lootas.
OK, here are the stats for Lootas. These numbers assume the deffguns have an average of 2 shots per round...
Versus --- Average Hull Pts ---- Chance to wreck
AV14 ................. 0.00............................... 0.00
AV13 ................. 0.11 .............................. 0.00
AV12 ................. 0.22 .............................. 0.02
AV11 ................. 0.33 .............................. 0.04
AV10 ................. 0.44 .............................. 0.06
So lootas are better than tankbustas at range versus AV10-12, almost as good vs. AV13 and worse vs. AV14. If you are moving tankbustas will be better because they won't have to use snap shot (halve all the probabilities for the lootas if they are using snap shot). Tankbustas will also be better close up to the tank because they can now chuck a single tankbusta bomb 8" and of course they may have some tankhammers...
IMHO lootas are usually the better choice because AV13/14 is really biker boss fodder anyway, what with CC now hitting moving vehicles on a 3+ and the land raider having 4 hull points to glance away.
60674
Post by: Bomb Squig
Da yella 'eads wrote:For all you Tankbustas out there here's some Rokkit Launcha maths hammer. All numbers are for a single rokkit launcha shot....
Versus --- Average Hull Pts ---- Chance to wreck
AV14 ................. 0.06............................... 0.00
AV13 ................. 0.11 .............................. 0.02
AV12 ................. 0.17 .............................. 0.03
AV11 ................. 0.22 .............................. 0.05
AV10 ................. 0.27 .............................. 0.06
So, to remove all 3 hull points from an AV11 rhino in one turn you need, on average, 14 Tankbustas (14 * 0.22 = 3.08). Of course you may destroy it earlier if a shot gets a lucky explode roll. On the other hand, 15 Tankbustas firing at a land raider will (on average) only take 0.9 hull points off it.
Happy shooting...
You forgot about Bomb Squigs. They're a huge reason that I bring Tankbustas. They also make me feel better about spending 15 points per tankbusta. Although it is 18" range, they hit on a 2+ and are Str 8. That's pretty awesome in my book.
60430
Post by: Da yella 'eads
You forgot about Bomb Squigs. They're a huge reason that I bring Tankbustas. They also make me feel better about spending 15 points per tankbusta. Although it is 18" range, they hit on a 2+ and are Str 8. That's pretty awesome in my book.
Good point. Squigs are also great fun if you roll a 1
Here are the stats for releasing a squig of doom:
Versus --- Average Hull Pts ---- Chance to wreck
AV14 ................. 0.14............................... 0.00
AV13 ................. 0.28 .............................. 0.02
AV12 ................. 0.42 .............................. 0.05
AV11 ................. 0.56 .............................. 0.07
AV10 ................. 0.69 .............................. 0.09
102
Post by: Jayden63
Bomb Squig wrote:Da yella 'eads wrote:For all you Tankbustas out there here's some Rokkit Launcha maths hammer. All numbers are for a single rokkit launcha shot....
Versus --- Average Hull Pts ---- Chance to wreck
AV14 ................. 0.06............................... 0.00
AV13 ................. 0.11 .............................. 0.02
AV12 ................. 0.17 .............................. 0.03
AV11 ................. 0.22 .............................. 0.05
AV10 ................. 0.27 .............................. 0.06
So, to remove all 3 hull points from an AV11 rhino in one turn you need, on average, 14 Tankbustas (14 * 0.22 = 3.08). Of course you may destroy it earlier if a shot gets a lucky explode roll. On the other hand, 15 Tankbustas firing at a land raider will (on average) only take 0.9 hull points off it.
Happy shooting...
You forgot about Bomb Squigs. They're a huge reason that I bring Tankbustas. They also make me feel better about spending 15 points per tankbusta. Although it is 18" range, they hit on a 2+ and are Str 8. That's pretty awesome in my book.
Bomb squigs actually hit 100% of the time. Its just that on a roll of 1 they attack the nearest ork vehicle. So unless you didn't bring a single vehicle they will usually hit something.
Also, I'm really wondering how bomb squigs work against fliers. They are technically a shooting attack that doesn't have to roll to hit, so if they can be used, then by all rights they should strike a flier on a 2+ as you don't have to roll to hit with them.
Which is just silly from a fluff viewpoint, but I don't know about RAW.
52054
Post by: MrMoustaffa
Jayden63 wrote:Bomb Squig wrote:Da yella 'eads wrote:For all you Tankbustas out there here's some Rokkit Launcha maths hammer. All numbers are for a single rokkit launcha shot....
Versus --- Average Hull Pts ---- Chance to wreck
AV14 ................. 0.06............................... 0.00
AV13 ................. 0.11 .............................. 0.02
AV12 ................. 0.17 .............................. 0.03
AV11 ................. 0.22 .............................. 0.05
AV10 ................. 0.27 .............................. 0.06
So, to remove all 3 hull points from an AV11 rhino in one turn you need, on average, 14 Tankbustas (14 * 0.22 = 3.08). Of course you may destroy it earlier if a shot gets a lucky explode roll. On the other hand, 15 Tankbustas firing at a land raider will (on average) only take 0.9 hull points off it.
Happy shooting...
You forgot about Bomb Squigs. They're a huge reason that I bring Tankbustas. They also make me feel better about spending 15 points per tankbusta. Although it is 18" range, they hit on a 2+ and are Str 8. That's pretty awesome in my book.
Bomb squigs actually hit 100% of the time. Its just that on a roll of 1 they attack the nearest ork vehicle. So unless you didn't bring a single vehicle they will usually hit something.
Also, I'm really wondering how bomb squigs work against fliers. They are technically a shooting attack that doesn't have to roll to hit, so if they can be used, then by all rights they should strike a flier on a 2+ as you don't have to roll to hit with them.
Which is just silly from a fluff viewpoint, but I don't know about RAW.
Step 1. Grab bomb squig
Step 2. Attach bomb squig to rokkit
Step 3. ???????
Step 4. Profit
And that is why orks have one of the best anti air solutions in the game
60674
Post by: Bomb Squig
Haha, well yeah of course they hit on any roll, I just mean that you're just looking for a 2+ with a bomb squig. Just the other day I had a trukk full of tankbustas and the bomb squig decided to blow up the trukk and send tankbustas flying  . But I have still found them to be very useful. Especially giving the Tankhammer guy a way to shoot.
Also, can you really hit a flyer with a bomb squig??
37700
Post by: Ascalam
Undecided.
You can't shoot at flyers except with snap fire, which requires a BS.
Some folk say autohit dodges this, others don't.
Personally i think it would be awesome to use ground to air squig missiles
42002
Post by: Kharrak
Just to jump back and reference something two pages back: Forgeworld released a PDF for their vehicles to bring them in line for 6th editon.
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/v/vehicle6thupdates.pdf
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/a/apoc6thupdate.pdf
For those interested but lazy:
Grot Bomb Launcha, Attak Fighta, Warkopta, Grot Tanks are all 2 hull points each.
Everything else is 3 hull points.
Apocapylse untis are now 3-hull points per structure point, for those looking to field Stompas and the other bigger variety of ork vehicles.
39309
Post by: Jidmah
Squigs can hit flyiers unless you are inside a vehicle.
Because the FAQ explicitly tells us to follow weapon shooting rules for squigs while embarked - as such, they can not be resolved against fliers, as you can not snap-fire them (they do not use your BS). Automatically Appended Next Post:
Squiggoths also got smash, hammer of wrath and AP1
11783
Post by: illuknisaa
Forge faqs don't say anything about junkas.
33033
Post by: kenshin620
illuknisaa wrote:Forge faqs don't say anything about junkas.
This is just the first wave, I'm sure more is on its way
41641
Post by: Vid
Bacms wrote:Which list do you use? It will take a while for people to get used to the new rules and get some lists that do farewell. CC is nerfed in my opinion which hurts quite a lot but orks can play alternatives. Shooty orks with loads of long distance shooting will make a difference. Vehicles are still worth taking but you will probably have to play differently. It is no longer point and click because we need time to know what to do.
Haha, I'm sorry i couldn't help but bust out laughing at this comment. Why would you start to make a full or almost full shooty ork army when you can make a thousand times better shooty army with pretty much any other 40k army.
This is what rots me with the new codex. Orks, IMHO, were built around chopping and assaulting things to death and I believe GW nerfed the male reproductive organs off the Ork army. The 6th Ed is supposed to be a "grim time for Space Marine existence" however, GW has done a wonderful job buffing their poster baby to the point that Xeno armies now struggle more then ever to play competitively.
Edit: I'm aware of how Orks reproduce and whatnot
36940
Post by: Anvildude
See, that's the thing. Orks are equal parts Choppy, Zappy, Blasty, Zoomy and Shooty.
Also known as Krump, Fasta, and Dakka.
43132
Post by: Big Mek Wurrzog
Sorry to detract the topic but i found something that can pertain to the orks tho not directly part of the FAQ. Since we have alot of posters here maybe someone could just answer this really fast?
Just caught a strange notation here about bikes in assault. It mentions during movement phase that a bike isn't slowed by difficult terrain but it treats it as dangerous during that phase. However, it doesn't say this during assualt phase but it goes out of it's way to mention it isn't slowed again and only states a ageis defense line would be treated as dangerous terrain....
So does this mean if my biker boyz were riding toward some forest to kill some eldar rangers, moved up to BUT NOT INTO the forest, shot and then assaulted no dangerous terrain tests are required for the action? But obviously leaving .. unless very lucky would be considered dangerous after.
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Post by: tgf
Got in quite a few games today, and overall I would say that Orks are a bit weaker.
Notable things today.
Ork flyers are so easy to shoot down now that rapid fire is 24 on the move that they are not worth the points, I had only one flyer of 2 survive more than a single turn is 3 games, and never once did my opponent even need skyfire.
Stormboyz are actually worse, you would think hammer of wrath would have made them better but casualties off the front pretty much makes their charge a turn later. Even using copious ammount of LOS blocks and cover the combo of 5+ armor and casualties off the front/visible then followed up with overwatch fire makes these already doubious picks worse. That sucks too because I love the models. HoW is really not that great either because it is S3. My marine opponet lost 1 guy in all 3 of our games to it.
Waaagh! doesn't seem to be as good anymore a reroll of a single d6 on charge distance in all 3 games only made the difference on a single charge.
Lootas die quicker (reduced cover) so you very expensive orks now almost require a 50 point fortification to survive more than a single turn.
Shoota boyz are still good, and in combat orks usually seem to have fewer bodies than before because of casualties off the front.
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Post by: Amaya
I have 21 unbuilt Ork warbikes. I can pick up another box and run 2x12 regular Warbiker squads or convert the ones I have into Nob Bikers.
Is running 2 units of 9-10 Nob Bikers effective or would smaller units work better? I'm thinking one 7, 2 of 6 (the 6 man squads each go with a warboss) instead.
37700
Post by: Ascalam
My magic number in 5th was 7, for Nob bikers.
In 6th, who knows 
55283
Post by: zverofaust
tgf wrote:
Waaagh! doesn't seem to be as good anymore a reroll of a single d6 on charge distance in all 3 games only made the difference on a single charge.
Fleet allows you to re-roll one or more dice for charging, not just one. Helps a little bit but I agree Waaagh has overall been nerfed a little bit.
Needless to say our gak's changed and tactics will have to adapt, but I too think Orks as a whole are better for it. Here's some important things I've realized:
1) Trukk boyz are a thing of the past. 12 models is simply too flimsy.
2) Large mobs of Slugga Boyz are going to be a nightmare in CC and probably the best tarpit unit in the game thanks to Fearless no longer causing excess wounds to be taken after lost combats. This will in some cases effectively half the number of wounds they're going to take. You'll be able to throw them at almost anything and at the very least tie the enemy unit up the entire game before you have to start worrying about Ld tests. Not to mention the "Get 'Em Boss!" rule that allows a Nob a reroll to Hit, Wound or Save for every 5 Boyz in the mob during a challenge.
3) Meks in units of Burnas and Lootas are going to likewise be awesome thanks to them being characters and rolling a 6 to hit allowing you to allocate their S8 AP2 KMB shot on any model you want. Watch out sniping special weapons and characters in target squads for the insta-gib.
4) Burnas are going to make great anti- CC units. I imagine taking 12 of them (with 3 Meks) in a Battlewagon and rolling them directly at an enemy CC unit; roll or run them right up infront of them and unleash with 12 templates, then sit back and let them charge you and take d3x12 more flame hits. The Meks can not only headshot people but can also repair the Battlewagon (including hull points).
5) Lootas will remain status quo, and that status is still awesome. They'll also serve as fairly effective AA without the need for an actual skyfire unit.
6) Kannons are better now with the enemy having to take out a bunch of T7 grots to silence them.
7) Shokk Attack Guns will now do full damage to vehicles from a partial hit, and with needing to take wounds from models closest to the center of the template, will along with all other blast weapons have potential as snipers.
8) Tankbustas can ignore any vehicle outside of 24 inches and do as they please. They can also chuck Tankbusta bombs 8" and will hit most moving vehicles on a 3+ against rear armour.
9) Bikes permanently increasing Toughness to 5 makes Biker Bosses and Nob bikers brutal, especially with Look Out Sir letting your all-character unit allocate wounds at will half the time. And they get a nifty cover save and can move like a bolt of lightning. This is potentially one of the biggest changes after no Fearless wounds, but I kept it til last because I really just don't like Ork bikes.
10) Double FOC at 2000 points can lead to some hilarity. Someone in another thread came up with an awesome list -- 2 SAGs, 90 Lootas, 18 Kannons and 30 Grots (or whatever) for 2k points.
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Post by: Jidmah
zverofaust wrote:1) Trukk boyz are a thing of the past. 12 models is simply too flimsy.
I keep hearing that. Has anyone actually tried the good ol' trukk list, or is there a battlereport by someone who did?
3) Meks in units of Burnas and Lootas are going to likewise be awesome thanks to them being characters and rolling a 6 to hit allowing you to allocate their S8 AP2 KMB shot on any model you want. Watch out sniping special weapons and characters in target squads for the insta-gib.
Agree, but I'd still equip meks with big shootas, as more dice and range = more allocatable wounds. The KMB is just a terrible gun since (thanks to Look out sir!) the chances of the mek killing itself is still higher than killing a character without any saves.
7) Shokk Attack Guns will now do full damage to vehicles from a partial hit, and with needing to take wounds from models closest to the center of the template, will along with all other blast weapons have potential as snipers.
2d6 + rerollable 1d6 is still worse than simply S8 at penetrating anything but AV14. The sag is awesome at shooting infantry, it should be use that way.
I agree to all your other points.
15283
Post by: tgjensen
zverofaust wrote:
10) Double FOC at 2000 points can lead to some hilarity. Someone in another thread came up with an awesome list -- 2 SAGs, 90 Lootas, 18 Kannons and 30 Grots (or whatever) for 2k points.
Yeah, that was me (15 Kannons and 40 grots though). But I just realized it'd be even funnier to work in four Big Meks in Mega-Armor and deploy them with the Lootas to give those units Slow and Purposeful (move and shoot!) and a 2+ armor save, with 2+ Look Out, Sir! to mitigate AP2 weaponry
39309
Post by: Jidmah
As pointed out before, putting big meks in MA is a waste of points. Get a Warboss.
23066
Post by: mrwhoop
Maybe some of this is 'Duh' but I'm putting it all down.
I tried some trukk boyz and my experience was about the same as 5th against SM. I played 2500 vs Vulkan with a Big Mek KFF/Warboss Biker, 5 trukks and 2 BWs of nobz (it's what I had). The boyz attacked after the I4 marines so losing the +1 I didn't change things. The nob/sarge would trade blows in challenge and it was played that wounds didn't overflow into the boyz/ SM so it was a tie for a round or two until the nob could swing round on the marines. What really hurt was assaulting a 5 man combat squad with a flamer and combi flamer: the 'wall of death' is aptly named. Especially on Vulkan's re-roll. On the plus side when the boyz surround and glanced a rhino to wreck and kill the inside it felt very satisfying. Also, the trukk's big shootas can wreck rhinos to add to the hilarity of hull points.
Let's see, deff rolling 2 DP ironclads was hilarious as they can't DoG. But having to move full cruising speed meant one BW blew up to a MB toting sarge; premeasuring and angling will be important to remember. Ah, and later there was an assault squad with plasma pistols that took out the warboss. The warboss biker had joined a kopta and the assault squad landed up behind with the closest being the warboss. He fell to 5 bolt shots and 2 plasma shots. I forgot the Look Out Sir so remember these new rules.
I ended up losing but it was my mistakes in forgetting these new things to avoid/roll for.
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Post by: mrfantastical
I have a friend that is playing Orks right now vs SM. This is my first official game I've observed of 6th.
My friend is playing foot slogging orks and the SM player has a land raider, razorback, and dreadnaught. The new cover save rules are murder to Orks. That fact that you can only count cover if you're in it (area terrain only) or if terrain obscures your model is so bad for Greenskins.
53708
Post by: TedNugent
Trukk Boyz sound like a disaster waiting to happen. Overwatch attrition would be enormous and you're not getting to bask in the removal of Fearless wounds.
You can't multi assault any more and they nerfed KFF.
Whyyy. Why would you run Trukk Boyz?
48228
Post by: lazarian
Overwatch is easy to bypass. Charge one squad to soak the overwatch, all other charges at the same unit cant be fire upon. A Warboss in mega armor piling out of a trukk splits from the squad and takes all overwatch, the squad hits. Or simply have the boss take all shots to begin with. Conversely take bikes and have them combo charge to soak overwatches. A suicide squad of bikes charge 2-3 squads at once probably survive the impact while your boys hit the squads single in order to maintain +1 attack bonus
53708
Post by: TedNugent
How does that bypass it? If you're multi assaulting a unit you lose your Furious Charge bonus -and- your assault bonus. You'd be screwing yourself by doing that.
Neither of those things used to happen. So now you're saying the solution is to "soak" an overwatch by sending a suicide unit into it to take the extra casualties and then throw another unit at the same unit, tying two units up in the assault and then losing your assault bonus?
Listen, I'm not saying this strategy is worthless, I'm just saying that none of that used to happen before. If you did a multi assault, the first squad wouldn't have to "soak" anything, because there were no overwatch wounds, and you weren't being robbed of your Furious Charge and assault bonus when you charged with the second squad.
The only real unknown with Trukk Boyz is whether the Hull Points will be to a Trukk player's detriment or to his advantage. Everything else is an obvious nerf, including what you mentioned. There's no reason to investigate this strategy again unless it was working miracles for you before.
48228
Post by: lazarian
TedNugent wrote:How does that bypass it? If you're multi assaulting a unit you lose your Furious Charge bonus -and- your assault bonus. You'd be screwing yourself by doing that.
Neither of those things used to happen. So now you're saying the solution is to "soak" an overwatch by sending a suicide unit into it to take the extra casualties and then throw another unit at the same unit, tying two units up in the assault and then losing your assault bonus?
Listen, I'm not saying this strategy is worthless, I'm just saying that none of that used to happen before. If you did a multi assault, the first squad wouldn't have to "soak" anything, because there were no overwatch wounds, and you weren't being robbed of your Furious Charge and assault bonus when you charged with the second squad.
The only real unknown with Trukk Boyz is whether the Hull Points will be to a Trukk player's detriment or to his advantage. Everything else is an obvious nerf, including what you mentioned. There's no reason to investigate this strategy again unless it was working miracles for you before.
Have one trukk boy squad charge in, it doesnt matter. Look its not a perfect solution, but it is honestly the first solution to pop into my head after just a second of thought. Its not bad, our 6th edition games have seen trukk boys used just fine, its just a bit more rough and tumble. You may have to shift more towards nob troops, or shooting or something. The book is 2 editions behind now you have to meet it half way.
53708
Post by: TedNugent
I'm just saying, at least foot hordes didn't get KFF nerfed and they lost Fearless wounds entirely, so it sounds like there are better options in the Codex.
7926
Post by: youbedead
TedNugent wrote:How does that bypass it? If you're multi assaulting a unit you lose your Furious Charge bonus -and- your assault bonus. You'd be screwing yourself by doing that.
Read the rules again, if you multicharge with one unit you take penalties but you can have multiple units charge one unit just fine, so have one unit multicharge and absorb all the overwatch and then charge indivisual squads with you other units
53708
Post by: TedNugent
youbedead wrote:TedNugent wrote:How does that bypass it? If you're multi assaulting a unit you lose your Furious Charge bonus -and- your assault bonus. You'd be screwing yourself by doing that.
Read the rules again, if you multicharge with one unit you take penalties but you can have multiple units charge one unit just fine, so have one unit multicharge and absorb all the overwatch and then charge indivisual squads with you other units
You can charge 2 units at one unit and both units will get Furious Charge and the assault bonus?
21217
Post by: Jag_Calle
Haven't had time to write my recap vs BA yet, bu I can say this much on the results (by turn 4, at wich time I conceided the so called match). I'd killed 2 assault marines, 1 jump pack deathcompany marine and a stormraven. He'd killed two trukks, a bigmekk, the two trukkaboy squads, and my two coptas.
Challenges hurt orks. Alot.
Either your pk nob gets chopped to pieces, or your not allowed his attacks. Ie, I don't think it's worth to bring a PK on nobs anymore, and our 12 boy units will get wiped in CC when they're so few. Either you get charged (jump packs are nasty now), or you get overwatched enugh for the last boys to get clobbered in CC before their initiative round. Well, 3 surviving boys on MY charge managed to strike back, killing one marine, then promptly failing their -9 morale test, and got sweeping advanced.
Bombs on koptas is a no-no, as your obly allowed to drop 'em in the movement phase, and turbo boost is now done in the shooting phase... Good luck being close enugh to a unit, and having move enugh to move over it....
The blitza bomber is MUCH worse against vehicles than I imagined... Yes, penetrating was easy, but since it's ap4, you don't get any bonus on the damage table, which in my game meant I stunned a furioso dread, which ignores stun results... I think rokkit buggies or rokkitkoptas could have achieved more for those 135 pts.... That's 3-4 twinlinked rokkit shots instead of one str7 +2d6 bomb...
I'm kinda pissed off atm.... I've played orks since third ed, bloodaxe style all the way, it got harder in 4th, and again in 5th. Now It's almost impossible. 15 kommandos, won't even survive charging a tactical marine unit if they're sarge got a powersword...
I've considered allying with IG (that's bloodaxey), but I think I'd be better off just running IG...
The only way I see orks workin in CC is in LARGE groups (25-30), with a nob, and a PK warboss/bigmekk. Letting the nob take, and be killed in the challenge, leaving the PK to help killing marines. We're talking throwing 350+ points of boys and HQ against a 160pt tac squad, and MAYBE limping away victorious... And then you won't survive charging anything else...
God I'm pissed right now...
//Calle
33816
Post by: Noir
TedNugent wrote:youbedead wrote:TedNugent wrote:How does that bypass it? If you're multi assaulting a unit you lose your Furious Charge bonus -and- your assault bonus. You'd be screwing yourself by doing that.
Read the rules again, if you multicharge with one unit you take penalties but you can have multiple units charge one unit just fine, so have one unit multicharge and absorb all the overwatch and then charge indivisual squads with you other units
You can charge 2 units at one unit and both units will get Furious Charge and the assault bonus?
Yes, you only lose the bonus, when you charge 1 unit into 2 or more units. How many units you charge into a single unit dose not matter.
48805
Post by: Stoffer
Jag_Calle wrote:Haven't had time to write my recap vs BA yet, bu I can say this much on the results (by turn 4, at wich time I conceided the so called match). I'd killed 2 assault marines, 1 jump pack deathcompany marine and a stormraven. He'd killed two trukks, a bigmekk, the two trukkaboy squads, and my two coptas.
Challenges hurt orks. Alot.
Either your pk nob gets chopped to pieces, or your not allowed his attacks. Ie, I don't think it's worth to bring a PK on nobs anymore, and our 12 boy units will get wiped in CC when they're so few. Either you get charged (jump packs are nasty now), or you get overwatched enugh for the last boys to get clobbered in CC before their initiative round. Well, 3 surviving boys on MY charge managed to strike back, killing one marine, then promptly failing their -9 morale test, and got sweeping advanced.
Bombs on koptas is a no-no, as your obly allowed to drop 'em in the movement phase, and turbo boost is now done in the shooting phase... Good luck being close enugh to a unit, and having move enugh to move over it....
The blitza bomber is MUCH worse against vehicles than I imagined... Yes, penetrating was easy, but since it's ap4, you don't get any bonus on the damage table, which in my game meant I stunned a furioso dread, which ignores stun results... I think rokkit buggies or rokkitkoptas could have achieved more for those 135 pts.... That's 3-4 twinlinked rokkit shots instead of one str7 +2d6 bomb...
I'm kinda pissed off atm.... I've played orks since third ed, bloodaxe style all the way, it got harder in 4th, and again in 5th. Now It's almost impossible. 15 kommandos, won't even survive charging a tactical marine unit if they're sarge got a powersword...
I've considered allying with IG (that's bloodaxey), but I think I'd be better off just running IG...
The only way I see orks workin in CC is in LARGE groups (25-30), with a nob, and a PK warboss/bigmekk. Letting the nob take, and be killed in the challenge, leaving the PK to help killing marines. We're talking throwing 350+ points of boys and HQ against a 160pt tac squad, and MAYBE limping away victorious... And then you won't survive charging anything else...
God I'm pissed right now...
//Calle
If you're not playing 25-30 man groups you're not really playing to the orks strengths..... PK orks in those groups should wipe BA off the table in challenges since you're likely to meet PF marines. You'll hit at the same time and get a bunch of rerolls. Prior to that you'lll get a ton of overwatch shots. As a BA player I'm not entirely sure how you lose to a BA footlist?
53708
Post by: TedNugent
Noir wrote:TedNugent wrote:youbedead wrote:TedNugent wrote:How does that bypass it? If you're multi assaulting a unit you lose your Furious Charge bonus -and- your assault bonus. You'd be screwing yourself by doing that.
Read the rules again, if you multicharge with one unit you take penalties but you can have multiple units charge one unit just fine, so have one unit multicharge and absorb all the overwatch and then charge indivisual squads with you other units
You can charge 2 units at one unit and both units will get Furious Charge and the assault bonus?
Yes, you only lose the bonus, when you charge 1 unit into 2 or more units. How many units you charge into a single unit dose not matter.
Ah, so it doesn't matter?
So I'm being an idiot, sorry guys, I'm gonna shut up til I get a rulebook in my hands.
43621
Post by: sirlynchmob
after my first game all I can say really is grenades suck. I charged a tac squad with my last kan, which is usually good to start crushing em. But alas 4 grenade hits and it was just ugly.
37700
Post by: Ascalam
He only gets to throw one, and he'd be using front armour (11) for the others..
He'd have to at least work at it a little, to glance you down.
It will suck for him too, when you glance down his vehicles/dreads
60674
Post by: Bomb Squig
I played my first game of 6th. It wasn't too great. 1500 pts per player, 2v2. My partner was Eldar and I had my Orks. Played GK and DE (2 new vrs 2 old codices  ). My only unit that really excelled was my 5 man squad of Flash Gitz along with Big Mek KFF. They were in a Trukk the entire game and got AP rolls of 1, 1, 2, and 3. They took out 6 guys in cover, and were shooting great, got a few raiders as well. Also, my Tankbustas did really well too. Then again, they always do against my DE opponent (he starts with 8 vehicles on the board). His Drazhar rolled the thing to allow him to get 1 VP per Character he killed. Of course he got ahold of my Nobz squad.... faceroll VP-wise. Grots got all the way to the objective and picked it up... ha.
The match ended of course in a loss for me.
From this post, I realized that I use all of the units that I see dakkadakka posters says not to use... Oh well, they do well for me and I enjoy those units.
37700
Post by: Ascalam
Most of those units were proclaimed as lousy in 5th by the competitive players, as they are either too random, or crippled by a lousy rule (Tankbustas)  I used 'em anyway
Under 6th Flash Gitz are actually pretty decent (if pricy) and they altered the tankbusta's lousy rule, so they're better too
KFF Mek was great in 5th, and is still ok in 6th, but less mandatory than before with the KFF nerf.
40509
Post by: G00fySmiley
tried something new today... 13 lootas and 2 meks in a battlewagon partially behind cover. 5+ cover save and it just stayed put front armor forward. it would usually get on or 2 glances per turn then repair them in the shooting phase
meks are badass now
37700
Post by: Ascalam
It does make those meks they give you in the Loota box a tad more useful
40509
Post by: G00fySmiley
Ascalam wrote:It does make those meks they give you in the Loota box a tad more useful
yea... i'm actually going to have to paint them now. i put them together but they were never worthy of even a base coat let alone a full character level paint job ... now they do
also i realize the mek thing has been said i was more confirming as a not just theory crafting but geez does it work well on the table
102
Post by: Jayden63
Jag_Calle wrote:Haven't had time to write my recap vs BA yet, bu I can say this much on the results (by turn 4, at wich time I conceided the so called match). I'd killed 2 assault marines, 1 jump pack deathcompany marine and a stormraven. He'd killed two trukks, a bigmekk, the two trukkaboy squads, and my two coptas.
Challenges hurt orks. Alot.
Either your pk nob gets chopped to pieces, or your not allowed his attacks. Ie, I don't think it's worth to bring a PK on nobs anymore, and our 12 boy units will get wiped in CC when they're so few. Either you get charged (jump packs are nasty now), or you get overwatched enugh for the last boys to get clobbered in CC before their initiative round. Well, 3 surviving boys on MY charge managed to strike back, killing one marine, then promptly failing their -9 morale test, and got sweeping advanced.
That sounds like the dice didn't like you too much, more than how badly the unit actually is.
11 shoota boys, one with big shoota, one Pk nob. in a trukk.
We will assume orks get the charge because they arn't the guys on foot.
Ork shooting has 22 shoota shots, 3 big shoota shots. 7 shootas, 1 big shoota hit. 4.16 wounds - one dead marine.
marines overwatch. 8 bolt pistols (because they are bp/ cc assault marines) and one flamer (assume 2 hits), 3 hits, 1 dead ork.
Marine sarge calls out ork nob for challenge.
marine sarge gets 3 attacks with power weapon. 1.5 hits, .75 wounds. Nob gets 4 attacks, 2 hits, 1 dead sarge. Or if the sarge has a P-fist, 1 hits, .83 wounds. Nob has 1 in 6 chance of living, but lets call it a wash. Both die.
Assault marines - 16 attacks, 8 hits, 4 wounds. 4 dead orks.
Orks attack - 30 attacks, 15 hits, 7.5 wounds, 2.5ish dead marines. (call it two because the dice hate us).
So marines win by 2, if the sarge was toting a P-fist. If not then tie.
This looks to be about how I figure it should have looked. Not having just 3 orks left. The above is also how it should have come out. 10 man assault marines out points 12 orks + nob by quite a bit. Even including weapon upgrades.
I think trukkers have their place, but its big shootas for everyone and you need to run them in pairs if not in 3s. You get more nobs and just as many big shootas. But this is how I have always run them. Also think of them as clean up units. Have them clean up a unit that has already been weakend by flyers or lootas. Stuff that can hit from a distance.
42002
Post by: Kharrak
By the way guys, as I understand it - you can only challenge a model that's either in Base-to-base, or within 2". Since your consolidate in at initiative, your nob should be to far back to be challenged at assault start. As such, when his turn comes around, he can happily wade in and make his attacks. In this regard, it would be treated as a normal 5th edition assault.
Assault round 2 and onwords, challenges are a go.
23066
Post by: mrwhoop
Sorry, but not true. The challenge section tells you what to do if the challenger/gee is not b2b.
15283
Post by: tgjensen
"Characters that cannot fight or strike blows (including those that are not engaged with an enemy model) cannot accept challenges."
Engaged means within 2" of a friendly model in base-to-base contact. So it should be possible to position your Nob so he isn't able to accept a challenge, yet make it into the fight upon his pile-in move.
53504
Post by: Dribble Joy
Stoffer wrote:PK orks in those groups should wipe BA off the table in challenges since you're likely to meet PF marines. You'll hit at the same time and get a bunch of rerolls.
You only get re-rolls if the enemy unit consists of a single model. PF sarges will still pose a problem for nobs.
11783
Post by: illuknisaa
If a unit is pinned can they use overwatch? That would make swooping attacks with dakka jets interesting alternative to dealing with overwatch.
39309
Post by: Jidmah
TedNugent wrote:Trukk Boyz sound like a disaster waiting to happen. Overwatch attrition would be enormous and you're not getting to bask in the removal of Fearless wounds.
You can't multi assault any more and they nerfed KFF.
Whyyy. Why would you run Trukk Boyz?
You can't mathhammer army dynamics. Until I have seen actual table-top proof that trukks are dead, I'm not going to buy it. Automatically Appended Next Post: illuknisaa wrote:If a unit is pinned can they use overwatch? That would make swooping attacks with dakka jets interesting alternative to dealing with overwatch.
Pinned units are explicitly allowed to use overwatch.
48805
Post by: Stoffer
Dribble Joy wrote:Stoffer wrote:PK orks in those groups should wipe BA off the table in challenges since you're likely to meet PF marines. You'll hit at the same time and get a bunch of rerolls.
You only get re-rolls if the enemy unit consists of a single model. PF sarges will still pose a problem for nobs.
Surely you strike at the same initiative with almost the same statline?
21217
Post by: Jag_Calle
Problem in this specific case is that I faced a chaplain, (powermaul) in one challenge, and a libby (force stave) in the other.... But it just highlighted the problem for me.
Powerfists should no longer be the "go to" weapon for sm sergeants. In an all-comer, I foresee powerswords, against TEQ, GEQ I see the powermaul with the ap4 and str bonus to be quite nifty...
It was a 1k game, and I faced: (quoting from memory)
Chaplain and 5 deathcomp marines, with jump packs, in a bloodraven. The flyer also had a furioso dread on it.
10 assault marines, apothecary and librarian.
25232
Post by: mrfantastical
Ok guys, I'm going to play 2 1000 point lists today to see if Greenskins still have a chance in the edition. I'd like some help in making sure that each list isn't missing anything.
HQ
Mad Dok Grotsnik (160)
Elites
6 Meganobz (380)
cybork bodies.
• Battlewagon: deff rolla.
6 Meganobz (380)
cybork bodies.
• Battlewagon: deff rolla.
Troops
11 Gretchin (40)
Runtherd.
11 Gretchin (40)
Runtherd.
1,000 points
Made with Quartermaster]
Biker Nobz
HQ
Warboss (140)
power klaw; warbike; cybork body; bosspole.
Warboss (140)
power klaw; warbike; cybork body; bosspole.
Troops
5 Nobz (360)
Painboy; 3× big choppa; 2× power klaw; 3× slugga; Waaagh! banner; warbikes; cybork bodies.
5 Nobz (360)
Painboy; 3× big choppa; 2× power klaw; 3× slugga; Waaagh! banner; warbikes; cybork bodies.
1,000 points
Made with Quartermaster
I'll post my results later today. Any advice will be appreciated.
40509
Post by: G00fySmiley
mrfantastical wrote:Ok guys, I'm going to play 2 1000 point lists today to see if Greenskins still have a chance in the edition. I'd like some help in making sure that each list isn't missing anything.
MegaNobz
HQ
Mad Dok Grotsnik (160)
Troops
6 Meganobz (380)
cybork bodies.
• Battlewagon: deff rolla.
6 Meganobz (380)
cybork bodies.
• Battlewagon: deff rolla.
11 Gretchin (40)
Runtherd.
11 Gretchin (40)
Runtherd.
1,000 points
Made with Quartermaster
Biker Nobz
HQ
Warboss (140)
power klaw; warbike; cybork body; bosspole.
Warboss (140)
power klaw; warbike; cybork body; bosspole.
Troops
5 Nobz (360)
Painboy; 3× big choppa; 2× power klaw; 3× slugga; Waaagh! banner; warbikes; cybork bodies.
5 Nobz (360)
Painboy; 3× big choppa; 2× power klaw; 3× slugga; Waaagh! banner; warbikes; cybork bodies.
1,000 points
Made with Quartermaster
I'll post my results later today. Any advice will be appreciated.
in the first list mega nobz are elites not troops no warboss
also mad docs one scalpel short of a medpack still have the old style rage due to specific rule. I'd suggest leaving him at home traded for a megaarmor warboss
2nd list seems dead-ard
48805
Post by: Stoffer
Jag_Calle wrote:Problem in this specific case is that I faced a chaplain, (powermaul) in one challenge, and a libby (force stave) in the other.... But it just highlighted the problem for me.
Powerfists should no longer be the "go to" weapon for sm sergeants. In an all-comer, I foresee powerswords, against TEQ, GEQ I see the powermaul with the ap4 and str bonus to be quite nifty...
It was a 1k game, and I faced: (quoting from memory)
Chaplain and 5 deathcomp marines, with jump packs, in a bloodraven. The flyer also had a furioso dread on it.
10 assault marines, apothecary and librarian.
Yeah alright, that will do it. Lot of units there that will give Orks a hard time.
9217
Post by: KingCracker
The only problem I see, is your MANz cannot be troops, as you dont have any boss there to open that option up. But that doesnt hinder your list too much (minus not being able to take objectives with them) because you can still take them as elites. Other than that, let us know how they roll ya? Because Im thinking of taking both biker boss and MANz in some of my builds, and obviously Im curious how they function
25232
Post by: mrfantastical
KingCracker wrote:The only problem I see, is your MANz cannot be troops, as you dont have any boss there to open that option up. But that doesnt hinder your list too much (minus not being able to take objectives with them) because you can still take them as elites. Other than that, let us know how they roll ya? Because Im thinking of taking both biker boss and MANz in some of my builds, and obviously Im curious how they function
Fixed it so they are elites.
I just don't know what to do about Grotsnik ( stick him with the MANz, put him with gretchin, or let him wander by himself).
I could run this
HQ
Warboss (155)
power klaw; mega armour; attack squig; cybork body; bosspole.
Elites
7 Meganobz (400)
• Battlewagon: grot riggers; boarding plank; deff rolla.
Troops
11 Gretchin (40)
Runtherd.
7 Meganobz (405)
• Battlewagon: red paint job; grot riggers; boarding plank; deff rolla.
1,000 points
Made with Quartermaster
40509
Post by: G00fySmiley
to me the mad dok has never really accomplished anything unless he is snikrot'd in and this time he can't even assault out of that move so he and his unit could be kited around the board fairly easily by one biek jet bike of jump infantry group while they shot the unit to shreds
mad dok is a cool model with a neat back story but one scaple short of a medpack did not change so he still sits in my case unused
29514
Post by: doctorludo
I still plan to give the trukks a go. My thoughts, open to being critiqued:
By my calculations, other than on a Waaagh, the assault range of troops on board is similar (assuming 2D6" charge to be equivalent to the old 6").
They can move 24" in a turn when the units stay on board.
In the old rules, their main advantage was to extent the range an assaulting ork unit could reach. They can still do that, by 6"
Their long movement range makes them useful for sudden redeployment, grabbing objectives etc.
Whilst they are vulnerable to glancing to death, this allows them to keep moving until destroyed. In the previous game, a glancing hit could destroy/stop a trukk moving fairly easily.
So, provided there remains any use at all for a 12 man squad, they may still have a role.
Thoughts?
36940
Post by: Anvildude
I'd say keep the Doc, and have him wandering around by himself. The Cybork upgrade on the Meganobz is just too nice, giving them a defense against Lascannon sniping.
Actually, thinking about it, it wouldn't be too big an issue just dropping him with one of the Meganobz mobs. They'd get FnP, and they're actually pretty fast- plus, since they can't run, you still get to shoot. (I think).
46786
Post by: Capt. Camping
Assaulting with 12 orks in a trukk is suicide specially against Grey Knights. First, they shoot when you assault and the front nob with PK can be killed. Now the mayority of close combat weapons have AP values so thats another problem. Now I see trukk boyz to capture points, to kill vehicles or less powerful units.
55441
Post by: WaaaghGruzkull
Won my first game after three losses, here's what I changed.
Dropped sluggas and swapped them for shoota boys.
Dropped Kans and swapped them for big gunz(kannons)
10 man squad of nobs on bikes with Warboss biker(11 twin linked dakkaguns ftw)
Overwatch works in our favor with shoota boys but I sadly see the death of sluggas as they cannot soften the charged unit enough to dampen the enemies overwatch.
39309
Post by: Jidmah
So... thoughts on Aegis Defense line with Quad-Gun and gretchin inside?
- Quad-gun consists of two twin-linked auto-cannons on a T7 W2 3+ model, which can be fired by any model in base contact, utilizing that model's BS. It has skyfire and intercept (may shoot at arriving reserves).
- 100 Points for the gun and walls, an enclosed set can hold a full unit of gretchin.
- Gretchin are completely hidden by any part of GW's Aegis defense line. Runtherd might be hidden by the high parts, depending on your opponent's angle. Otherwise 4+ cover for all models, including the gun.
- Gretchin can go to ground behind the walls for a 2+ cover save.
Seems like a great place to put objectives.
55441
Post by: WaaaghGruzkull
How many quad guns on an line? I have been taking dakkajets and having success taking out any enemy fliers that way.
53708
Post by: TedNugent
Jidmah wrote:So... thoughts on Aegis Defense line with Quad-Gun and gretchin inside?
- Quad-gun consists of two twin-linked auto-cannons on a T7 W2 3+ model, which can be fired by any model in base contact, utilizing that model's BS. It has skyfire and intercept (may shoot at arriving reserves).
- 100 Points for the gun and walls, an enclosed set can hold a full unit of gretchin.
- Gretchin are completely hidden by any part of GW's Aegis defense line. Runtherd might be hidden by the high parts, depending on your opponent's angle. Otherwise 4+ cover for all models, including the gun.
- Gretchin can go to ground behind the walls for a 2+ cover save.
Seems like a great place to put objectives.
That sounds amazingly fabulous. Do you know where I could buy an Aegis Defense line?
33033
Post by: kenshin620
TedNugent wrote:
That sounds amazingly fabulous. Do you know where I could buy an Aegis Defense line?
Umm, GW/places that sell GW products?
Although if you want discounts then I'd suggest Miniature Market. 25% off and free shipping on $100 or more orders
46786
Post by: Capt. Camping
Since my last game I notice more shooting is a must. I am considering making 2 more Battlewagons from some cheap $2 toys I found in a hardware store. Its a big coincidense they have almost the same dimensions and areas to cut with the Dremel to convert it. The only downsize is the material not as good as GW, but some plasticard will be enough.
37480
Post by: matphat
Hey all, I'm about to edit the front page to start listing some of the tactical ideas people propose and I'm also going to add a list for "proven" tactics that have seen success in the field. Feel free to PM anything I don't happen to catch in the thread.
25232
Post by: mrfantastical
Played my 1000 game with the Biker Nob list I posted. Faced a pretty nasty Blood Angel list with death company dreadnought w/ Blood Talons, storm raven, death company, TL lascannon razorback, LC Terminators, and a Librarian.
Nob Bikers got me a win ( they were actually pretty amazing).
I do have a few questions though:
*Can you precise shot with Overwatch?
>if so using TL Dakkaguns to target the closet models saved me from being charge. Would also work on targeting threats like powerfists.
*Can you still charge the occupants that come out of a vehicle you just destroyed with shooting?
*Can Look out Sir be used after failing a save?
34168
Post by: Amaya
Yes, pretty sure you can, and not sure How Look out Sir works exactly. I thought it was roll to pass wound and then roll save?
37480
Post by: matphat
Wounds are assigned to a model using "look out sir" BEFORE saves are made.
37729
Post by: AresX8
Mat, that only applies to a mixed save unit. If all of the models in a unit have the same save, you roll all the saves in one batch. Then, when a saved or unsaved wound is allocated to a character, that's when you can roll for Look Out Sir.
36940
Post by: Anvildude
And there's something about higher armour saves not being able to pass to lower ones, or something?
Also, all shooting is allocated to the frontmost models. You don't need to Precise shoot them.
37729
Post by: AresX8
Yes, if the unit has mixed saves, you need to roll the saves one by one. I suggest you do the method in the corner box of pg 16 to speed up the game.
EDIT: In this scenario with mixed saves, Look Out Sir is rolled for before the character rolls a save.
37480
Post by: matphat
Ah, my bad, I thought he was talking about mixed save unit. Sorry, I wasn't specific.
48999
Post by: waaaaghboss
How are warbuggies? I have 5 of the old trukks that I might convert into buggies to go with my new shooty ork army.
37700
Post by: Ascalam
Make them Rokkit buggies and go tank-hunting...
They are accurate, for orks, and hard hitting, for orks..
They can glance down hard tanks, and wreck transports pretty well,
They are also highly mobile
39309
Post by: Jidmah
WaaaghGruzkull wrote:How many quad guns on an line? I have been taking dakkajets and having success taking out any enemy fliers that way.
I wasn't thinking about shooting it at fliers. It's a four-shot twin-linked S7 AP4 weapon that can shoot at both fliers and ground units at full BS, as well as the option to shoot anything that arrives in a 48" radius around it - which is about half the board. If you have gretchin shoot it, it goes up to 75% hit chance. I plan on shooting pretty much anything that dares to come near, be it 4+ models or AV10-12 vehicles. If that's a flier, then so be it. For just 140 points (including gretchin) that's a pretty vicious gun, imo. I just got the defense line, so not playtested yet.
55441
Post by: WaaaghGruzkull
Yeah after I asked the question I looked it up, the icarus lascannon isn't bad either. But it is neither twin linked or 4 shots.
Bastions have my wheels turning to see if they might not be able to do something for me as well. Drop some lootas in it perhaps.
41641
Post by: Vid
WaaaghGruzkull wrote:Won my first game after three losses, here's what I changed.
Dropped sluggas and swapped them for shoota boys.
Dropped Kans and swapped them for big gunz(kannons)
10 man squad of nobs on bikes with Warboss biker(11 twin linked dakkaguns ftw)
Overwatch works in our favor with shoota boys but I sadly see the death of sluggas as they cannot soften the charged unit enough to dampen the enemies overwatch.
How many points was this? Was this with the new FOC for 2000+ Pts or below?
My only thoughts on this is that in 5th edition a lot of people stayed away from the "Green Tide" (footslogging) type of Ork armies mainly due to the fact they were difficult to transport and set up in between the games and most games had a time limit on them. The point I'm getting at is if we're going to be running loads of 30boy squads we'd be essentially running a green tide with a little kick in it just to benefit from the Overwatch rather then be at a disadvantage with fewer boyz.
Secondly, can we pretty much confirm that Slugga boyz are dead in the water or not? Thoughts?
43836
Post by: Bacms
Vid wrote:
Secondly, can we pretty much confirm that Slugga boyz are dead in the water or not? Thoughts?
Slugga boyz you were less useful than shoota boyz since they are less flexible. Their shorter range and less number of shoota only made them viable on transport lists. And even on that case they were dead close with shoota boyz.
The new edition at the moment seems to point that assault is more tricky than ever so shootas seem to have the upper hand just because of that.
55441
Post by: WaaaghGruzkull
How many points was this? Was this with the new FOC for 2000+ Pts or below?
My only thoughts on this is that in 5th edition a lot of people stayed away from the "Green Tide" (footslogging) type of Ork armies mainly due to the fact they were difficult to transport and set up in between the games and most games had a time limit on them. The point I'm getting at is if we're going to be running loads of 30boy squads we'd be essentially running a green tide with a little kick in it just to benefit from the Overwatch rather then be at a disadvantage with fewer boyz.
Secondly, can we pretty much confirm that Slugga boyz are dead in the water or not? Thoughts?
Well in 5th I mostly ran a kanwall with 4-6(depending on points) groups of sluggas, I got used to setting them up fast for tourneys. I did very well usually as the kan wall soaked up the damage for the tide to hit them at full strength.
All that aside obviously the kan wall isn't worth a lick anymore, and I found that sluggas don't tide well now because they cannot soften the targets. With shoota's I got to shoot on my turn and then on more then one occasion overwatch on theirs robbing their assault, shooting them once more on my turn then assaulting what was left.
Sluggas just get one shot oppertunity before charging and their 30 shots pale in comparison to shootas 60 for overwatch. So your left charging squads that are at higher numbers meaning more ork deaths.
FYI this was at 2k pts but I didn't go outside the one FOC.
37480
Post by: matphat
waaaaghboss wrote:How are warbuggies? I have 5 of the old trukks that I might convert into buggies to go with my new shooty ork army.
I've always ran 3 buggies in my speed freek lists, and had great success with them. However, I'm not sure how hullpoints are going to impact them yet.
Just be careful that you don't build them the same size as trukks, or people might complain about size. You may also find them harder to get though terrain with such a long wheel base.
I'd suggest chopping them down a little.
20173
Post by: kowbasher
After 4 games of trying to run Kan Walls (my favorate list from 5th) I've concluded that it just doesn't work anymore. The 5+ save just isn't enough to save Kanz whatsoever with only 2 HP each. Perhaps if they had 3 a piece it would still work, but right now I'm moving into running a Green Tide list myself.
I've had 3 games running 2x30 mobs of Shootas, and 4x20 mobs of Sluggs (damn AOBR boyz are everywhere), and I can say that I am enjoying the list alot. Sure it's a pain to move that much infantry, but I'm getting quicker at the set-up and the movement phase each game.
Sluggas are perhaps the weakest point of the core right now. I basically run them screaming at the opponent and hope he panics and shoots them instead of the shootas, lootas, or dakkajets. What typically happens though is I keep failing damn 6-7" charges with them all the time! Overwatch does just enough to shave of 2-3 boyz in which I loose 1-2" and can't seem to ever roll above 5-6. Very frustrating, considering it's almost 2 shooting phases for the enemy to finish off the sluggas.
Shoota boyz are worth their weight in gold like it has been mentioned. It is really easy to move up to around 18" to get your full salvo of shots then just sit and wait for your opponent to attempt a charge next turn against them, fail, and get 2 rounds of shooting yourself. Kinda silly after awhile how easy it is.
Right now I'm testing what is the best types of supporting units for the tide and I'm finding that Lootas and Dakkajets are brilliantly amazing at clearing a path for the boyz and destroying units holding objectives on the opponent's side of the board. Three dakkajets screaming in on turn 2 or 3 with a Waagh! is absolutely devistating and I've destroyed complete squads of Havocs and Longfangs with barely any effort. Lootas are always good.
I think I'll be trimming of a squad or two of Sluggas and trying out Big Guns or the Gretchin + Aegis Defense Line for even more dakka. Though it does pain me a bit to say that assualt Ork lists don't seem to work anymore...just overwhealm your opponent with numbers and more dakka, then assualt to wipe out the squad.
46786
Post by: Capt. Camping
kowbasher wrote:After 4 games of trying to run Kan Walls (my favorate list from 5th) I've concluded that it just doesn't work anymore. The 5+ save just isn't enough to save Kanz whatsoever with only 2 HP each. Perhaps if they had 3 a piece it would still work, but right now I'm moving into running a Green Tide list myself.
I've had 3 games running 2x30 mobs of Shootas, and 4x20 mobs of Sluggs (damn AOBR boyz are everywhere), and I can say that I am enjoying the list alot. Sure it's a pain to move that much infantry, but I'm getting quicker at the set-up and the movement phase each game.
Sluggas are perhaps the weakest point of the core right now. I basically run them screaming at the opponent and hope he panics and shoots them instead of the shootas, lootas, or dakkajets. What typically happens though is I keep failing damn 6-7" charges with them all the time! Overwatch does just enough to shave of 2-3 boyz in which I loose 1-2" and can't seem to ever roll above 5-6. Very frustrating, considering it's almost 2 shooting phases for the enemy to finish off the sluggas.
Shoota boyz are worth their weight in gold like it has been mentioned. It is really easy to move up to around 18" to get your full salvo of shots then just sit and wait for your opponent to attempt a charge next turn against them, fail, and get 2 rounds of shooting yourself. Kinda silly after awhile how easy it is.
Right now I'm testing what is the best types of supporting units for the tide and I'm finding that Lootas and Dakkajets are brilliantly amazing at clearing a path for the boyz and destroying units holding objectives on the opponent's side of the board. Three dakkajets screaming in on turn 2 or 3 with a Waagh! is absolutely devistating and I've destroyed complete squads of Havocs and Longfangs with barely any effort. Lootas are always good.
I think I'll be trimming of a squad or two of Sluggas and trying out Big Guns or the Gretchin + Aegis Defense Line for even more dakka. Though it does pain me a bit to say that assualt Ork lists don't seem to work anymore...just overwhealm your opponent with numbers and more dakka, then assualt to wipe out the squad.
Did you use power klaws or big choppa in the nob? and eavy armor in the lead nob? Also rokkit or big shoota in the mobs?
47616
Post by: Orkaswampa
Here's an Idea -
In the bastion entry in the BRB it says it has 4x Heavy Bolters (TYPICALLY on each facing) - Does this mean it can be modelled on one facing, as its not a must its just typical that they do and sometimes might not!?
Assuming you can have 4 heavy bolters on one facing, i think a squad of gretchin inside the bastion would work quite well
4x Quad Gun shots at T/L BS3
12x Heavy Bolter Shots at BS3
Grot win?? Thoughts please! --- Just read Fortification rules and it uses an Icarus Lascannon on the roof as an EMPLACED WEAPON, meaning squad inside can fire that without being exposed on the roof
Also nice place to dump an objective
20173
Post by: kowbasher
Capt. Camping wrote:kowbasher wrote:After 4 games of trying to run Kan Walls (my favorate list from 5th) I've concluded that it just doesn't work anymore. The 5+ save just isn't enough to save Kanz whatsoever with only 2 HP each. Perhaps if they had 3 a piece it would still work, but right now I'm moving into running a Green Tide list myself.
I've had 3 games running 2x30 mobs of Shootas, and 4x20 mobs of Sluggs (damn AOBR boyz are everywhere), and I can say that I am enjoying the list alot. Sure it's a pain to move that much infantry, but I'm getting quicker at the set-up and the movement phase each game.
Sluggas are perhaps the weakest point of the core right now. I basically run them screaming at the opponent and hope he panics and shoots them instead of the shootas, lootas, or dakkajets. What typically happens though is I keep failing damn 6-7" charges with them all the time! Overwatch does just enough to shave of 2-3 boyz in which I loose 1-2" and can't seem to ever roll above 5-6. Very frustrating, considering it's almost 2 shooting phases for the enemy to finish off the sluggas.
Shoota boyz are worth their weight in gold like it has been mentioned. It is really easy to move up to around 18" to get your full salvo of shots then just sit and wait for your opponent to attempt a charge next turn against them, fail, and get 2 rounds of shooting yourself. Kinda silly after awhile how easy it is.
Right now I'm testing what is the best types of supporting units for the tide and I'm finding that Lootas and Dakkajets are brilliantly amazing at clearing a path for the boyz and destroying units holding objectives on the opponent's side of the board. Three dakkajets screaming in on turn 2 or 3 with a Waagh! is absolutely devistating and I've destroyed complete squads of Havocs and Longfangs with barely any effort. Lootas are always good.
I think I'll be trimming of a squad or two of Sluggas and trying out Big Guns or the Gretchin + Aegis Defense Line for even more dakka. Though it does pain me a bit to say that assualt Ork lists don't seem to work anymore...just overwhealm your opponent with numbers and more dakka, then assualt to wipe out the squad.
Did you use power klaws or big choppa in the nob? and eavy armor in the lead nob? Also rokkit or big shoota in the mobs?
Big Shoots x 3 for the Shoota mobs and they worked real well. Nothing on the Slugga mobs beacuse I need them to either Run or Assault. Never a fan of rokkits in the mobs...slightly too expensive for something that tends to miss too often.
Out of habit I've kept the Nobz with PKs, but to be honest I'm finding it rarer and rarer that I can actually use them! With challenges anyone with AP4 or greater and higher iniative than 2 has a great chance to kill my nob with no effort, and I don't even get to hit back. I actually find my nob declining the challenge and sitting akwardly in the middle of the fight, twiddling his thumbs as I hope the pure numbers of the boyz is enough to force enough saves. With the lack of the PK and lack of Fearless wounds, I find combats are not really as descisive as they used to be, and tend to get dragged out 2-3 rounds. Unless of course the opposing units is way better at CC than me, like Khorne Berzerkers, then I tend to avoid fighting them in CC as long as possible and instead strafing run them with the Dakkajets.
Not sure if Big Choppas are a good answer though. Nobz are Initative 3 if I recall properly (usually see them with PKs!), so against a Marine Sgt. I should be able to get off 3-4 S6-7 attacks before I get kill right? I never use bosspoles on mobs of 30, so the loss the the nob isn't that bad. Heck doing that I might be able to have an inexpensive Demon Weapon absorber for a round as the boyz kill of the marines. Sad state of affairs when I look at my nobz as sacrifical models instead of the killy badasses they used to be.
Anyone running mobs without a nob?
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