@Pipealley- remember, I believe the SAG might count cover from the center of the template (if it doesn't, well PHPTTTTTT!)

Has anybody tried Stikkbombs this edition?

I'm considering sticking that 1 point on each of my Nob leaders, so when I charge, the target will be a little softer than just what sluggas can do.

 wowsmash wrote:
Ok this is what I have so far. Looking for tips. Goin Green Tide.
On a side note I'm starting to have nightmares about ork boys. That's a lot of models to clean a paint. My figures are sore from all the mold line trimming. <- is this normal.

It's not that bad. Just assemble them all, then prime them, then paint on base colors (e.g. pants, skin, metals; ) this way you can have stuff that looks decent, but not have to worry about small details. Granted, you will want to go back and deal with those later, but this way you have a tabletop quality army. Also, do things in batches of 5-10. Anything more is a pain. Hide your grey models, and keep your painted ones out to remind you why you still want to paint. Also have something else to paint, like a unit from a different army. It helps break up the monotony.

Anvildude wrote:
@Pipealley- remember, I believe the SAG might count cover from the center of the template (if it doesn't, well PHPTTTTTT!)

only barrage weapons do that

well dang. Doesn't make much sense, really.

I kinda want to make new Templates for Blast and Large Blast weapons (that aren't barrage) that are like really short fat Flamer templates, to better represent the fact that those shots are directional.


Also, I always use Stikkbombs. Haven't gotten many games this edition, though.

 wowsmash wrote:
Ok this is what I have so far. Looking for tips. Goin Green Tide.

1 warboss full kit heavy armor, cybork, twin link shoota, power claw
6 30 man boyz squads( 3 big shoots, nobs, power claws, boss poles, heavy armor) each mob
2 15 man lootas

? Good or bad? What needs work. I figured flood the field with boyz. 180 of them.
On a side note I'm starting to have nightmares about ork boys. That's a lot of models to clean a paint. My figures are sore from all the mold line trimming. <- is this normal.

I agree with the comment to split those 30 lootas into three 10 ork units. I keep feeling you need some kind of ranged shooting vs heavy armor, like big gunz, tankbustas, or something w/ tl rokkits.

So one of the guys in our group, has swapped from Nids to Dark Eldar, so tomorrow Ill probably play against DE for the first time ever. I THINK he said his army is either 1k or 1500. What should I look out for (as far as typical DE builds in that range) and some general dos and donts? Im not saying I want to beat his pants off or anything, but not getting my teeth kicked in would be nice as well


Also, its me, so I can field pretty much anything you guys toss up in the air

Depending on the army, they're actually pretty devestating in close combat. Watch out for Lillith Hesperax, as she can, almost by herself, take out an entire 30 Boy mob.

Other than that, don't expect your vehicles to last too long, be prepared to face, for all intents and purposes, KFF shielded Trukks with big guns, and remember that they're like explosive tissue paper- really dangerous if you let them do their thing all at once, but easy to shred into pretty, inneffectual sparkles.

 KingCracker wrote:
So one of the guys in our group, has swapped from Nids to Dark Eldar, so tomorrow Ill probably play against DE for the first time ever. I THINK he said his army is either 1k or 1500. What should I look out for (as far as typical DE builds in that range) and some general dos and donts? Im not saying I want to beat his pants off or anything, but not getting my teeth kicked in would be nice as well


Also, its me, so I can field pretty much anything you guys toss up in the air

Depends if he goes shooty or close combat or a mix.

I run a pretty shooty ork list and when dark eldar go shooty they will out shoot orks. If it's shooty there will be lots of vehicles that will eat your vehicles up pretty fast unless you luck out on KFF rolls. They can take allot of ap2 stuff as well so mega nobs on foot probably not good either. If he takes the fields on his vehicles to reduce your range by 6 it can really hurt you bad and you will need to close fast. If he fields something close to what I face on a regular basis expect almost everything being in a transport plus other vehicles but with low armor save one or two. For that you don't want say like one 15 man Loota squad if that is all the elites you are taking take 3 5 man or 2 10 man so you can split up those shots. Flamers will hurt em bad if you pop the transports but problem is reaching them. I think last game vs DE at 1750 there was 10 or more vehicles to pop and they were all faster than mine. Flash gits ignoring cover can hurt them as their vehicles get cover saves but not sure its worth the points. I would think about how many different targets I can shoot at in a single turn if facing DE and pop those transports first. Been facing them regularly at local tourneys and they are usually shooty in my area and can be a really rough game and they have made me make adjustments to my lists.

Dr. What wrote:
Has anybody tried Stikkbombs this edition?

I'm considering sticking that 1 point on each of my Nob leaders, so when I charge, the target will be a little softer than just what sluggas can do.

stikkbombs=completely useless, not worth spending any points

and remember if anyone in a squad takes stikkbombs the entire unite MUST take the upgrade :/

KingCracker wrote:tomorrow Ill probably play against DE for the first time ever.

From my brief time in ork threads, I get the distinct impression that people way hyperventilate when they see lootaz, and they're not ACTUALLY as good as all the hype.

That said, in this case, what you really, really want is lootaz. At 1000 points, you could easily see 6-8 AV10 open-topped skimmers. Lootaz will shred them. Check out this game to see what the guard analogue to lootaz (hydras) do to DE skimmer spam.

Of course, you're ork, though, not guard. That means that you can take them down with small arms. To throw 3HP off of an AV10 vehicle with a 5+ jink, you'd need 27 S4 hits, which means 82 shots. Put another way, just with the small arms fire from 2 20x shoota mobz, you're taking down a vehicle per turn. I think venoms only have 2 HP as well...

Then throw on big shoota spam, and you might not even NEED lootaz. What has been one of the most difficult armies for my footguard might just be brainlessly easy for orks. You do have to be careful, though, because they've got darklances and S6 spam, which means they're blowing up your vehicles as quickly as you're blowing up theirs, and they also have an ABSURD amount of splinter fire, both in the form of TL BS4 Ap5, and in the form of TL BS4 S6, so your opponent might well be shredding you as quickly as you shred them.

Other than lootaz, one of the things you may well want to consider is bikes. The dakkaguns of the bikes are going to make short work of DE vehicles, and once you blow them up, the guys inside are going to be easily krumped in close combat (unless they're wyches). And the best part is that you're fast enough to be able to catch those skimmers and power klaw them. You won't get any advantage from the +T, because all of their weapons are poisoned, but you'll still get the cover save, the speed, the close combat ability, and the guns.

Throw in wazdakka to make those bikes scoring, and that one special character alone is probably good for a DE skimmer every time he shoots, which given that he can do it while turboboosting means that they are NOT getting away from him.

 KingCracker wrote:
So one of the guys in our group, has swapped from Nids to Dark Eldar, so tomorrow Ill probably play against DE for the first time ever. I THINK he said his army is either 1k or 1500. What should I look out for (as far as typical DE builds in that range) and some general dos and donts? Im not saying I want to beat his pants off or anything, but not getting my teeth kicked in would be nice as well


Also, its me, so I can field pretty much anything you guys toss up in the air

Dakka is always your friend but you should go for volume cause any strength 5 and high is perfect to mess with their vehicles and troops regardless of size or quality. Lootas will do amazing for you, and an ageis defense line will also accomplish alot, KFF isn't a bad option but you will be playing defensively if you do that. I would suggest a few dakka jets and then big guns if you have nothing better for points lastly I'd stock pile boyz like no tommorrow

I wont take bikes, but I do rather enjoy koptas with TL Bigshootas(which is the DAKKAgun from a bike but with a 36inch range instead) So @1k I will probably have 60 shoota boyz, lootas (I ALWAYS go small an plentiful with them) and a DAKKAjet, and depending, a bikerboss w/5 koptas tagging along. Something like that anyways.

But again, I only know that he said he got either 1k or 1500pts of DE, so I just wanted a general jist of what I could be facing. I dont normally bring AV in my lists, so those lances Im not really worrying about.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well, sadly the DE guy just dropped off the face of the Earth apparently, so we just played a small game, and my DAKKAjet came in and owned the Landspeeder with the 2 missile launchers on the back, then next turn turned and gunned down an entire Scout unit. It was pretty badass

Also, has anybody else considered a "greener tide" by adding Typhus and 70 zombies (for 530 points in all) as a nasty FNP meathshield for da boyz?

Dr. What wrote:


Also, has anybody else considered a "greener tide" by adding Typhus and 70 zombies (for 530 points in all) as a nasty FNP meathshield for da boyz?

If you mean Mad Doc Grotsnik and 70 zombie grots, then yes, yes I have...

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

Dr. What wrote:


Also, has anybody else considered a "greener tide" by adding Typhus and 70 zombies (for 530 points in all) as a nasty FNP meathshield for da boyz?

If you mean Mad Doc Grotsnik and 70 zombie grots, then yes, yes I have...

I like it!

I was thinking that my Orks would think: "Hey, they're green, let 'em fight too!"

Or Mega Armored Mek with a mad army of little robots...

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:

Anvildude wrote:
@Pipealley- remember, I believe the SAG might count cover from the center of the template (if it doesn't, well PHPTTTTTT!)

only barrage weapons do that

Yeah, only barrage weapons but it this past game, my opp kept placing his IC's at the front of the units for some reason so closest models were always the best for me to kill

Tried the SAG, meh as always except Apoc. So out it goes and KFF will be back next time.

 Ailaros wrote:

KingCracker wrote:tomorrow Ill probably play against DE for the first time ever.

From my brief time in ork threads, I get the distinct impression that people way hyperventilate when they see lootaz, and they're not ACTUALLY as good as all the hype.

That said, in this case, what you really, really want is lootaz.

Sorry that struck me as quite funny!

I dont think it's the idea of lootaz themselves that is scary. What's scary to people is the idea that if the ork player really hates you, he can bring 45 of the little boogers to a normal game

Or 90. Could probably put almost all of them in battle wagons and spend the rest on grots for troops.
You have 2 Big Meks, 4 min squads of grots, 6 squads of 15 lootas each in a Battlewagon with Deffrollas and RPJ for about 2300 pts. You could probably put in some anti flyers and bring it up to 2500 pts. That gives you between 90 and 270 STR7 shots a turn.

Anyways, since I haven't dabbled in 6th too much, how would this 2000 pt list fare?

2000 pt list

HQ:
2x Warbosses w/ PK + BS + BP = 190 pts

Elites:
5x Lootas = 75 pts
5x Lootas = 75 pts
5x Lootas = 75 pts
15x Burnas = 225 pts

Troops:
10x Gretchin w/ Runtherd = 40 pts
19x Boyz w/ Nob + PK + BP = 154 pts (w/ warboss in a wagon)
19x Boyz w/ Nob + PK + BP = 154 pts (w/ warboss in a wagon)
12x Boyz w/ Nob + PK + BP in a Trukk w/ RPJ + Grotriggers = 157 pts
12x Boyz w/ Nob + PK + BP in a Trukk w/ RPJ + Grotriggers = 157 pts
(all boyz have choppas)

Fast Attack:
Dakka Jet w/ TL SS & RPJ = 125 pts
Deffkopta w/ TL Rokkit = 45 pts
Deffkopta w/ TL Rokkit = 45 pts


Heavy support:
Battlewagon w/ Deffrolla + RPJ + BS = 120 pts
Battlewagon w/ Deffrolla + RPJ + BS = 120 pts
Battlewagon w/ Deffrolla + RPJ + BS = 120 pts


Anything glaringly wrong with it? I originally wanted a squad of nobz, but it seems that they have been nerfed. I'll probably swap out the warbosses for KFF meks eventually.

played a 500pt teaching game on saturday. My orks vs my daemons. My friend was playing orks.
SAG was hilarious, at one point he rolled a str 10 (6+4), followed by a precise shot on the scatter die, directly on top of my herald of khorne on bloodcrusher and then rolled a 1 to wound

Quick question on that... if a SAG hits and causes wounds do you take wounds from the front of the unit or from under the marker?

The SAG is NOT a barrage weapon, so the wounds come form the models closest to the shooting Mek. Just dont forget its an Ordinance weapon AND AP2, so against vehicles it can be a decent vehicle popper. Though personally, since its random STR, I only shoot at vehicles when there isnt any bodies to tag first

 virx67 wrote:
Or 90. Could probably put almost all of them in battle wagons and spend the rest on grots for troops.
You have 2 Big Meks, 4 min squads of grots, 6 squads of 15 lootas each in a Battlewagon with Deffrollas and RPJ for about 2300 pts. You could probably put in some anti flyers and bring it up to 2500 pts. That gives you between 90 and 270 STR7 shots a turn.

Anyways, since I haven't dabbled in 6th too much, how would this 2000 pt list fare?

2000 pt list

HQ:
2x Warbosses w/ PK + BS + BP = 190 pts

Elites:
5x Lootas = 75 pts
5x Lootas = 75 pts
5x Lootas = 75 pts
15x Burnas = 225 pts

Troops:
10x Gretchin w/ Runtherd = 40 pts
19x Boyz w/ Nob + PK + BP = 154 pts (w/ warboss in a wagon)
19x Boyz w/ Nob + PK + BP = 154 pts (w/ warboss in a wagon)
12x Boyz w/ Nob + PK + BP in a Trukk w/ RPJ + Grotriggers = 157 pts
12x Boyz w/ Nob + PK + BP in a Trukk w/ RPJ + Grotriggers = 157 pts
(all boyz have choppas)

Fast Attack:
Dakka Jet w/ TL SS & RPJ = 125 pts
Deffkopta w/ TL Rokkit = 45 pts
Deffkopta w/ TL Rokkit = 45 pts


Heavy support:
Battlewagon w/ Deffrolla + RPJ + BS = 120 pts
Battlewagon w/ Deffrolla + RPJ + BS = 120 pts
Battlewagon w/ Deffrolla + RPJ + BS = 120 pts


Anything glaringly wrong with it? I originally wanted a squad of nobz, but it seems that they have been nerfed. I'll probably swap out the warbosses for KFF meks eventually.

Is this 1 or 2 FOCS?

I see you have 4 elite slots but not bringing any more HQ/fast etc. wanted to make sure.


I like your list. could probably drop red paint on trukks to make room for other stuff, give those wagons riggers also, more important than riggers on trukks.



Nobs are still good. Nob bikers and mega nobs are particularly popular now, and quite effective. I haven't ran a squad of normal nobs since 6th myself.

The bikers being T5 now means they can eat lascannon shots, and now that >i1 power weapons (aside from dead mans hand etc) don't have an Ap2 rating those MANZ chew threw a lot... Last night my 6 manz and warboss ate a charge from 8 DC + reclusiarch. i challenge, he backs down. he scores 20 wounds on charge and i roll horrible and fail 6 saves. Losing 3 bases of manz... I had bad luck striking back and only killed 5 DC... Once it rolled around to assault phase of my turn he put on another 2 wounds and I put on 6 wiping the squad... Having a mix of the bikes and manz can prove to be benefitial as you can throw a bunch of 2+ armor at the power sword wielding guys, and let the nob bikers dine on the TH/SS terminators

I believe its just 1 FOC. he listed the 2 warbosses twice, the 2nd time being the unit they are joining which is why its a 19 squad in a wagon


Automatically Appended Next Post:
oops ignore that.... 4 elites not 4 hq

its two foc since its got 2 HQs and four troops. i'll look into the changes for the vehicles. I have burnas b/c I like them, and the 3 squads of lootas should provide rhino popping, the dakkajet for flier benefits, and the deffkoptas for alpha strike purposes.

If you're fielding two FOC there really is no reason to pick trukk boyz over a fourth battlewagon with boyz. Better target saturation, larger mob, more deff rollas.

 KingCracker wrote:
The SAG is NOT a barrage weapon, so the wounds come form the models closest to the shooting Mek. Just dont forget its an Ordinance weapon AND AP2, so against vehicles it can be a decent vehicle popper. Though personally, since its random STR, I only shoot at vehicles when there isnt any bodies to tag first

I could see them changing this in the next codex with a special rule for the SAG, being that it opens a tunnel with the opening at the CENTER of the large blast template. That and the fact it's fired by a Character?

LBT AP 2 sniping weapon. Is that too much to ask for?

 PipeAlley wrote:


LBT AP 2 sniping weapon. Is that too much to ask for?

No thats not too much to ask for but then they will likely make it a one use only item

No it wouldnt ever become a 1 use weapon. But I agree, wounds taken from the center would be fantastic

Is it too much? Probably not with BS2. I pray that Kelly writes the book again (though I'm not a Ward hater).

I also hope for Big Choppas to get rending or concussive.

Or at the LEAST, get AP5 or the old "Choppa" rule.

Or Ap4 like the new chainaxes. Now that close combat weapons have something between Ap- and Ap2, who knows what's going to happen?

I made a thread about this, but it isn't getting any replies so:

How good is an Ork biker army in 6th? Has it gotten better/worst, how easily playable is it? What is a rough list that I should have for 1.5-2.5k army?

What I was thinking:
Wazdakka, to make bikes troops (awesomely converted obviously)
A bikerboss w/ PK to go with a biker nob unit (or if biker nobs/biker boss aren't very good then something else)
If nob bikers are good, a 5-10 man unit with atleast 3-4 PKs and rest big choppas+a painboy.
Atleast 2 maxxed out units of biker boys with PK nobs.
Some tankbustas because they are a good support unit and are fluffy for my army (im doing Death Skullz.)

But what else? Bear in mind I'd rather keep the amount of vehicles (e.g battlewagons, looted wagons or trukks) to a minimum.

Thanks in advance!

Yeah, after the initial 6th-hype the ork community seems to be falling asleep. Many people aren't that fond of the new dakka-orks, and even I find myself preferring doing something else over playing 40k right now. Winning games without a single assault feels wrong - and boring.

 Jidmah wrote:
Yeah, after the initial 6th-hype the ork community seems to be falling asleep. Many people aren't that fond of the new dakka-orks, and even I find myself preferring doing something else over playing 40k right now. Winning games without a single assault feels wrong - and boring.

I agree. After playing foot guard for so long, coming to orks after 6th and finding my games suddenly playing very similarly was dissappointing. It's why i decided to do the biker army, as that army seems to get around the limitations on assault fairly well. If I had been planning on green tide though, or had committed to it more, i would be very angry.

Nob bikers especially are very killy and can krump just about anything. I've heard you only really need 2 klaws, 2 big choppas, and then the painboy, waaagh banna, bosspoles, etc. I'm about to start using them soon as I'm finally getting some more bikes soon.

 Jidmah wrote:
Yeah, after the initial 6th-hype the ork community seems to be falling asleep. Many people aren't that fond of the new dakka-orks, and even I find myself preferring doing something else over playing 40k right now. Winning games without a single assault feels wrong - and boring.

To me it was actually just the change to the new edition completely destroying the list I was building. I was building a Kan wall and after spending almost a year trying to get all the models I needed to start playing at 1500pts comes 6th edition and pretty much makes the list useless. The Kans remain in parts, partially painted and with no will to continue and finishing their assembly. Have changed to BA which I can build a 2000pts list with less models than the 750pts of orks I have at the moment.

Dr. What wrote:
Is it too much? Probably not with BS2. I pray that Kelly writes the book again (though I'm not a Ward hater).

I also hope for Big Choppas to get rending or concussive.

amen brother, amen... this would solve so many problems with that.... I've been saying that giving orks power mauls and the like would be amazing to event us out. When our Codex comes i fear for the enemy because i think meganobz will be rising to the foreground of battle.

 Bacms wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Yeah, after the initial 6th-hype the ork community seems to be falling asleep. Many people aren't that fond of the new dakka-orks, and even I find myself preferring doing something else over playing 40k right now. Winning games without a single assault feels wrong - and boring.

To me it was actually just the change to the new edition completely destroying the list I was building. I was building a Kan wall and after spending almost a year trying to get all the models I needed to start playing at 1500pts comes 6th edition and pretty much makes the list useless. The Kans remain in parts, partially painted and with no will to continue and finishing their assembly. Have changed to BA which I can build a 2000pts list with less models than the 750pts of orks I have at the moment.

Like the weather in MN, if you wait long enough it will change. Buy any spare Kanz people might be selling for cheap now, what goes around so on and so forth but yeah, my Kanz were almost done as well.

Better to take a break and then get back in latter than get frustrated and sell your armies. We just don't play Orks, we are Ork Players, which means always sticking it out.

Like I've said before, I'll probably never take 1st in a tournament, but can you imagine a world in which Orks aren present at a Tournie?

Horrifying!!!

You Boyz are making all the orks blue, do not give up. Kans with Grotzookas, it's the way to go. Do not lose faith, the grotzooka is a remarkable way to deal with terminator lists and does decently well against other infantry.

I will admit I'm working on looting many bikes for a list I'm going to call bike week, but thats because it sounds fun and flavorful.

Also, with double FoC, you can now have MOAR WALKERS than ever before! 4 DeffDredds, 18 Killa Kanz! (and the 4 Big Meks) Terrifying wall of klanking death marching towards you, and absolutely OKAY in some missions, where HS counts as Scoring!

4 deffdread 18 kans.... tabled on turn 2 by necrons.
ok maybe not THAT bad but....

I will be happy to see the new ork dex, IF by some random aligning of the universe we get ap4 choppas I will regret having converted my slugga boyz to shoota boyz.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or rending choppas

MrMoustaffa wrote:It's why i decided to do the biker army, as that army seems to get around the limitations on assault fairly well. If I had been planning on green tide though, or had committed to it more, i would be very angry.

And this is key. Foot guard could be very choppy in 5th ed, but once 6th ed rolled around and killed power blobs, well... there wasn't anything else that they could do to be choppy as basically the entire rest of the codex is more or less gunline.

Foot orks could be very choppy in 5th ed, and now that 6th ed killed the slugga horde, well... they have MANZ IN CANZ, and bike mobz and deffkoptaz, and trukk spam.

If you want a choppy horde in 6th, until new codices come out, you're screwed. If what's important is choppin', though, orks can still do it, just not in the same way as before.

I'm on the fence then. I have a tone of boys that I'm the process of trimming mold lines and assembling. Not sure if I should go ahead and make shoota boys or make slugga boys and just hang in there tell the new dex comes out.

 wowsmash wrote:
I'm on the fence then. I have a tone of boys that I'm the process of trimming mold lines and assembling. Not sure if I should go ahead and make shoota boys or make slugga boys and just hang in there tell the new dex comes out.

In the current edition I would highly suggest that you make them shoota boyz. I dont think we're going to see a new Codex till maybe the end of 2013 if we're lucky and even then its a 50/50 shot on whether or not slugga/choppa boyz will be better. By then you can have a nice little collection of assembled/painted boyz.

wowsmash wrote:I'm on the fence then. I have a tone of boys that I'm the process of trimming mold lines and assembling. Not sure if I should go ahead and make shoota boys or make slugga boys and just hang in there tell the new dex comes out.

Well, if what you want is boyz that do choppin, then make them sluggas. It's better to go with what you love and find a way to make it work than to go with something better that you just plain old don't like as much.

In the case of sluggas, you're not going to be able to green tide with them anymore, but they can still ride in trukks and battlewagons. A list that starts with a warboss and some MANZ in a battlewagon, along with three more battlewagons full of sluggas is still going to be a good start to an ork list.

Plus, if you wind up disliking shootas so much that you stop playing until the new ork codex comes out, you're going to kick yourself later when you've got to convert them all back to sluggas later. 40k minis are a durable good. If you really, really can't make sluggas work right now, you can always shelve them and then take them back out when they become usable again.

 Ailaros wrote:

MrMoustaffa wrote:It's why i decided to do the biker army, as that army seems to get around the limitations on assault fairly well. If I had been planning on green tide though, or had committed to it more, i would be very angry.

And this is key. Foot guard could be very choppy in 5th ed, but once 6th ed rolled around and killed power blobs, well... there wasn't anything else that they could do to be choppy as basically the entire rest of the codex is more or less gunline.

Foot orks could be very choppy in 5th ed, and now that 6th ed killed the slugga horde, well... they have MANZ IN CANZ, and bike mobz and deffkoptaz, and trukk spam.

If you want a choppy horde in 6th, until new codices come out, you're screwed. If what's important is choppin', though, orks can still do it, just not in the same way as before.

Gotta admit I came out of retirement in the hopes that 6th would help Orks, but it doesn't look that way. I switched to Orks from IG because gunline is (and will always be) boring to me. Seems like that's what 6th edition was aiming for.

Guess ill have to put my Orks back on the shelf, and go back to Warmachine.

Anvildude wrote:
Or at the LEAST, get AP5 or the old "Choppa" rule.

Now THAT would make Bigchoppas mean.

mrfantastical wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:

MrMoustaffa wrote:It's why i decided to do the biker army, as that army seems to get around the limitations on assault fairly well. If I had been planning on green tide though, or had committed to it more, i would be very angry.

And this is key. Foot guard could be very choppy in 5th ed, but once 6th ed rolled around and killed power blobs, well... there wasn't anything else that they could do to be choppy as basically the entire rest of the codex is more or less gunline.

Foot orks could be very choppy in 5th ed, and now that 6th ed killed the slugga horde, well... they have MANZ IN CANZ, and bike mobz and deffkoptaz, and trukk spam.

If you want a choppy horde in 6th, until new codices come out, you're screwed. If what's important is choppin', though, orks can still do it, just not in the same way as before.

Gotta admit I came out of retirement in the hopes that 6th would help Orks, but it doesn't look that way. I switched to Orks from IG because gunline is (and will always be) boring to me. Seems like that's what 6th edition was aiming for.

Guess ill have to put my Orks back on the shelf, and go back to Warmachine.

I think Orks did in fact get help from 6th edition just not in the traditional way that Ork players are used to playing. Massed shooting is where its at right now as Overwatch is amazing with Orks due to their gross number of shots. It's rare for me to assault anything because I usually want to shoot them and then Overwatch them while maybe taking a few casualties during their shooting phase. If they do decide to assault me between Overwatch and a good base number of attacks I should be able to win a lot of combats. The only static shooting I really use in my army are lootas becasue everything else like boyz/warbikers/dakkajets are always on the move. I've been having a great time with the new changes but I guess it's really not for everyone.

 Ailaros wrote:
MANZ IN CANZ

This is now the new Orkficial term for Deffwing.

I think Orks did in fact get help from 6th edition just not in the traditional way that Ork players are used to playing. Massed shooting is where its at right now as Overwatch is amazing with Orks due to their gross number of shots. It's rare for me to assault anything because I usually want to shoot them and then Overwatch them while maybe taking a few casualties during their shooting phase. If they do decide to assault me between Overwatch and a good base number of attacks I should be able to win a lot of combats. The only static shooting I really use in my army are lootas becasue everything else like boyz/warbikers/dakkajets are always on the move. I've been having a great time with the new changes but I guess it's really not for everyone.

This is exactly how I feel about it. I love the change, but then again, Ive been playing shooty Orks for awhile now, so the fact that my builds are even better then before, makes me a happy Ork

I'm currently working on an IG allied contingent for my Trukk Rush:


to go with:



Thoughts?

Looted wagons are generally frowned upon, but its an Ork parking lot from the looks of it. I could see that being effective. Make sure you double up on assaults though taking trukks, youll want 2 trukks assaulting the same unit ideally

Anvildude wrote:

Ailaros wrote:MANZ IN CANZ

This is now the new Orkficial term for Deffwing.

Well, to be fair, I was talking about mega-armored nobz in battlewagons. Then again, I don't know who does foot nobz.

Actually, that's pretty much what Deffwing is: the Battlewagons are 'stand ins' for the Land Raiders that Deathwing (and other 'wings) can take and use.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Yeah, after the initial 6th-hype the ork community seems to be falling asleep. Many people aren't that fond of the new dakka-orks, and even I find myself preferring doing something else over playing 40k right now. Winning games without a single assault feels wrong - and boring.

I agree. After playing foot guard for so long, coming to orks after 6th and finding my games suddenly playing very similarly was dissappointing. It's why i decided to do the biker army, as that army seems to get around the limitations on assault fairly well. If I had been planning on green tide though, or had committed to it more, i would be very angry.

Nob bikers especially are very killy and can krump just about anything. I've heard you only really need 2 klaws, 2 big choppas, and then the painboy, waaagh banna, bosspoles, etc. I'm about to start using them soon as I'm finally getting some more bikes soon.

Im curious to see how biker armies turn out, cause you'd think they're gonna have similar assault problems as reg boyz. My typical list fields two units of bikes but I rarely assault with them I prefer to use them as fast, shooting squads (no nobz or any gubbins). Is the +1 toughness really overcoming the low Initiative in assaults? Don't they get overwatched and have to roll dangerous terrain tests a lot of times? Those nob bikers are I3, is it worth using the PK and losing the chance to strike at same time as marines?

I'm not being a wise guy, I'm just asking experiences of other folks using them in this edition.

Not going to lie guys, I run a green tide list, and its still pretty mean.

4x 30 Sluggas
-Nob, PK, BP

2x 30 Shootas
-Nob, PK, BP

22 Lootas

2 Dakka Jets

The Green Tide is still as overwhelming as ever. Yes its a little tougher with over watch and the fact that you remove casualties from the front lines, however, over watch isn't THAT awesome. 180 Boyz is still pretty damn scary and I have a pretty awesome time wrecking people... Dont give up on the Green Tide just because its not AS scary as it once was... its still brutal.



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Oh... Toss in my KFF Mech for good measure =)

Well the thing with bikes is that they have "fleet" built in, have a 12" move, and have hammer of wrath, twin linked dakka guns, and slugga/choppa for the extra attack. If you assume the warbikers get the charge, the average boy gets...

*3 strength 5 shots at ap 5. Roughly half will hit. Usually good to ding a guy or 2 on their own.
* a free S 3 attack at I 10. Not huge, but it's a free attack, and against small, high I units that rely on speed instead of toughness, it can be handy.
*4 strength 4 attacks.

On that turn with the charge, theyre putting out a ton of damage per bike, and have higher T and saves to keep them alive. Yes you have to pay for it, but I'd say its worth it.

Thats PER bike, and thats ignoring the nob. If anything in our dex can deal damage in assault, I think it'd be warbikers. However, i would still shoot up any unit I wanted to assault just to be safe, and save the risky charges for last minute objective grabs or something. All in all though, warbikers are awesome as far as I see it. They're a very orky unit.

But what do you do about the new helldrake? Dakkaguns don't work against it because of AV12, and klaws don't work against it because you can't assault fliers. Even lootas are going to struggle here, as it's still hitting on 6's, and it's still AV12. Meanwhile, they will destroy anything orky (including lootas), and seem basically designed to stop ork bike lists in their tracks, what with their S6 Ap3 ignores cover positioning flamer template of doom.

I mean, AV12 fliers are the most powerful thing in the game at the moment generally speaking, and we just got another one thrown at us. Seems like it would be tough, especially for a bike list.

I think if your rocking a bike list, you need to be bringing at least 2 Dakka Jets. Their only 135 Points full upgraded, and you can fly around targeting rear armor, or tossing down a fair amount of volume on your waaaggghhh. I just played a game Tuesday and my Dakka Jet brought down a Helldrake. Fight flyers with flyers.


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Hell, that goes for any ork list.... always bring your Jets =)

The army that controls the skys is the army that controls the game, always bring fliers!

 Ailaros wrote:

MrMoustaffa wrote:It's why i decided to do the biker army, as that army seems to get around the limitations on assault fairly well. If I had been planning on green tide though, or had committed to it more, i would be very angry.

And this is key. Foot guard could be very choppy in 5th ed, but once 6th ed rolled around and killed power blobs, well... there wasn't anything else that they could do to be choppy as basically the entire rest of the codex is more or less gunline.

Foot orks could be very choppy in 5th ed, and now that 6th ed killed the slugga horde, well... they have MANZ IN CANZ, and bike mobz and deffkoptaz, and trukk spam.

If you want a choppy horde in 6th, until new codices come out, you're screwed. If what's important is choppin', though, orks can still do it, just not in the same way as before.

Unlike guard, every single sentence of fluff in our codex is about charging into combat, or shooting while charging into combat, or charging into combat while shooting. Everything in the ork codex is about close combat. We can't do close combat anymore. Outside of the three flavors of nobz, none of our units should actually assault anything. The equivalent would be telling guard player to play a close combat army now.
And from the games three games I have witnessed, trukk spam is all but dead - too many points of failure. The requirement of assaulting in pairs means that any failed charge instantly means you lose a unit, and have another unit standing around waiting to be shot. This usually results in a two for one trade, and you tend to get one or two of those in every game.

 y0disisray wrote:
I think Orks did in fact get help from 6th edition just not in the traditional way that Ork players are used to playing. Massed shooting is where its at right now as Overwatch is amazing with Orks due to their gross number of shots. It's rare for me to assault anything because I usually want to shoot them and then Overwatch them while maybe taking a few casualties during their shooting phase. If they do decide to assault me between Overwatch and a good base number of attacks I should be able to win a lot of combats. The only static shooting I really use in my army are lootas becasue everything else like boyz/warbikers/dakkajets are always on the move. I've been having a great time with the new changes but I guess it's really not for everyone.

This. I have a higher winning quote than ever before - but I'm not having as much fun as before.

 Ailaros wrote:
But what do you do about the new helldrake? Dakkaguns don't work against it because of AV12, and klaws don't work against it because you can't assault fliers. Even lootas are going to struggle here, as it's still hitting on 6's, and it's still AV12. Meanwhile, they will destroy anything orky (including lootas), and seem basically designed to stop ork bike lists in their tracks, what with their S6 Ap3 ignores cover positioning flamer template of doom.

I mean, AV12 fliers are the most powerful thing in the game at the moment generally speaking, and we just got another one thrown at us. Seems like it would be tough, especially for a bike list.

Why wouldn't the dakkajet work against it? I have blown quite a number of storm ravens and vendettas out of the sky by loss of hull points. Obviously, you should get fighta ace for it, but on your Waagh!, you aren't that unlikely to simply blow one out of the sky.

Option two: Bring your own helldrake, and chaos bikes


Oh, and as for assembling the boyz: If you have boyz boxes, build shoota boyz. If you want slugga boyz, buy AOBR orks off ebay for a fraction of the costs you'd pay for boyz boxes.

Orrr, you could buy aobr boys period and if you wantthem to be shoota boys you can use the advice earlier in this thread(IG grenade launchers)

From what I gather, he already has boyz boxes and is asking about how to build them.

Rejn wrote:
Orrr, you could buy aobr boys period and if you wantthem to be shoota boys you can use the advice earlier in this thread(IG grenade launchers)

Adding in the cost of the grenade launchers and shipping, might safe you a little bit, depending on how cheap you get them, but you still have to figure in time to convert. Granted its not hard, lob off the slugga just infront of the grip, chop the launcher just behind the drum, and glue together. Still though, if youve got the box of boyz already.



As for the Helldrake, again Im with Jidmah. DAKKAjets are incredible against ANYTHING they can hurt, no matter how slim the chance. In my last game, mine came in, smoked 2 speeders in a squadron, was shot at, so I jinked, then its next turn, I called a WAAAGH! and still mowed down an entire unit of scouts rolling all snapfires. So yea, if you can even glance something, the DAKKAjet will more than likely turn it into a crater

 Jidmah wrote:
Yeah, after the initial 6th-hype the ork community seems to be falling asleep. Many people aren't that fond of the new dakka-orks, and even I find myself preferring doing something else over playing 40k right now. Winning games without a single assault feels wrong - and boring.

I'm there with the rest of you guys. I'm more or less playing as little as possible right now. I'm waiting till our new codex comes out. Hoping it brings some life back to the Orks.

It will, they almost always do. But I seem to be playing even more now. MANY changes to 6th were some ideas my oldest brother and I had for awhile anyways. As any edition, theres a few things we think are a bit hokey and toss out, but over all we seem to be really enjoying 6th.

I'm not saying 6th isn't a fun game. I think it's a great change from 5th. What I think the sentiment people are trying to convey is, ORKS aren't feeling as good in 6th.
Since I only play Orks, and like to CC, it's just not working for me.

No I get what you Goff players are on about. The thing is though, I stopped focusing on CC EARLY in 5th, and focused on shooting. So since thats how Ive pretty much always played, my army just got tougher. BUT Im willing to bet that when they do redo the codex, that CC Orks will have a nice surprise in there

Do you think we will get a 6th edition codex anytime soon? I don't think so really, and I hope it isn't written by Cruddace.

improvement on tank bustas? bike toughness now used as a whole? what in the 6th ed rule book made these changes?

check the new ork faq. Thats where this is mentioned. Several other things, like T7 grots manning big guns, are a result of broad rule changes that the 6th edition book brought to all armies

check the new ork faq. Thats where this is mentioned. Several other things, like T7 grots manning big guns, are a result of broad rule changes that the 6th edition book brought to all armies

thanks for clearing that up



Anyways I'm currently building an infantry suited ork clan(my first army as well), the main fire power will come from lootas and kannons in the back while a horde of ork sluggas led by a warboss, advance up to the enemy. I choose sluggas because i think they're cooler and more fun but everyone here is saying its suicide to do so. Will i really be that fethed if i go with sluggas?

I've played sluggas since I started Orks othough I stick them in trukks). The majority of my games have been against Tau, and it's more of a challenge to win, but, IMO, closer games are much more fun!

If you're up against fairly laid back people at your club, should be fine. They can still pack a punch in close combat. But if you're in a more "competitive" club, I will not lie, you're gonna be in for a rough time. 6th really kicked assault in the groin, especially for horde assault armies like power blob guard and horde orks.

Orks biggest strength now is ironically enough shooting, with assault being something you save for finishing off weakened units, or taking out units that have no business being in assault to begin with. We only have a few units that can still reliably get into assault and krump roight proppa, but even they risk being screwed over by bad charge rolls or overwatch.

Unless you're taking insane amount of boyz, you'll have a tough time getting enough into combat for it to matter. However, Boyz are now one of the most awesome tarpits you can imagine. I've had 20 shoota boyz bog down CC monsters for entire games, even without the nob getting to swing once. I really wish this wasn't true though, as i'd love to be assaulting instead...

Well, and there's something else that's important not to overlook here - sluggas have guns too. It's why they're CALLED slugga boyz.

Yeah, they're only half as good at shooting, per point, as shootas, but it's not like slugga boyz can ONLY be used in close combat. That might be their primary purpose, but you can still get a fair number of shots out of them.

Think of it sort of like how space marines have bolt pistols and ork bikes have choppaz, and stormtroopers have a close combat weapon. Don't discount free versatility straight out of hand.

I'll say it again.... 180 Ork Sluggas is scary....

360 is scarier

double FOC really lets you get your Green on!

yeah but capping that under 2500 sucks... You can do 300 with a couple KFF Mechs though

 Bad_Sheep37 wrote:
I'll say it again.... 180 Ork Sluggas is scary....

No, it's not. Just because you fill up the entire table with orks doesn't mean you win. Even when you're not up against purifiers, termor-cons or similar auto-losses, you've only got six slow mediocre combat units, that can be tar-pitted by most walkers in the game.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Bad_Sheep37 wrote:
I'll say it again.... 180 Ork Sluggas is scary....

No, it's not. Just because you fill up the entire table with orks doesn't mean you win. Even when you're not up against purifiers, termor-cons or similar auto-losses, you've only got six slow mediocre combat units, that can be tar-pitted by most walkers in the game.

how do you know it isn't 9 units? Or anything in between, I'm just saying


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And it's hard to tie up a unit of boys with walkers now...
You either run away since you can't hurt it, or your nob starts swinging on it.

I just don't see how effective tarpitting a mob of boyz would be with walkers

The problem is that a nob swinging at a walking is by no means a reliable killing blow. From experience you're going to spend at least two combat phases whaling on the damn thing, and the whole time it is battering you. So your squad is depleted, and has spent at least one or two game turns being stuck in combat.

The real nightmare for me is Wraithlords. The bastard thing is a (ch), so it can challenge the Nob, kill him outright, and then reduce the boyz to ribbons. Trygon Primes are the same, I do believe. In two recent games I was up against Eldar/DEldar mixes, and each time the Wraithlords were a total heartache, just wandering around killing entire squads at a time.

I run a trukk list, which I just switched to as 6th was about to hit. Before I ran a hybrid list, with foot boyz and a nob squad in a battlewagon, which did ok for me, but I got very tired of moving all of those models around. So I went for trukk spam, using:

KFF Mek
Megaboss

3x Meganobz in trukk
12x Slugga Boyz in trukk
12x Slugga Boyz in trukk
12x Slugga Boyz in trukk
17x Shoota Boyz in Battlewagon (with KFF & Warboss accompanying)
10 Gretchin

Dakkajet

9 Lootas

The list is loads of fun, dead fast, and opponents have a heart attack when they see how close you get on turn 1. The KFF has been utterly failing me so far, which is very sadface, but the Meganobz (a recent acquisition) have been terrifying everyone that sees them. But out of 8 or so games, I think that I've won 2; both times my opponents had very bad luck or terrible deployment choices. I think that a lot of my problem is learning how to use the trukk list, but I've also found that the boyz are simply massively underwhelming in assault now, especially in twelves; still cannot kill power armour, still die in droves, still run very easily. It is also still funny, but I'd maybe prefer to win and laugh rather than have to lose and laugh.

Rejn wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 Bad_Sheep37 wrote:
I'll say it again.... 180 Ork Sluggas is scary....

No, it's not. Just because you fill up the entire table with orks doesn't mean you win. Even when you're not up against purifiers, termor-cons or similar auto-losses, you've only got six slow mediocre combat units, that can be tar-pitted by most walkers in the game.

how do you know it isn't 9 units? Or anything in between, I'm just saying

Because of the FOC? 180x6 =1080 points

And it's hard to tie up a unit of boys with walkers now...
You either run away since you can't hurt it, or your nob starts swinging on it.

I just don't see how effective tarpitting a mob of boyz would be with walkers

You cannot run away from a walker if you are fearless. And if you run away, the walker will sweep your I2 boyz more often than not. That's how you tarpit them. A nob (if you brought one, which most people don't do anymore), and it's still alive, it still has a hard time cracking walker with AV13 and/or the daemon special rule. Unless you bring a warboss, a walker will win the war of attrition more often than not.

Truth is, I moved away from horde builds within a year of starting this game. I quickly realized that neither I nor my opponent had the energy for the amount of time each round took when moving 120 boyz.
Since then I've tried to make do with slightly less models on the board. I never take over 80 boyz now, and tend to lean towards 60 plus more elite units and mixed arms.
Even if CC horde were to come back in the new codex as a tourney competitive build or hell, even an OP build, I still wouldn't run 120 boyz. It's just not fun for me.

I have never cared for horde armies. When I started orks about 2 months before 6th came out, I geared up and played a loota/small boy count/biker nob list and ran stormboys/jet/copters etc

Once 6th rumors came out I invested in metal mega nobz and started playing around with them using the old S&P rule.. Assault back in 5th vs. vehicles was terrible... It's so easy now...


Back in 5th we used to have to legit WORRY about av14 moving fast and hitting it on 6's... oh great my S10 warboss swings 5 times... No hits... ... Now with Auto hit/3+ when moving it makes assault that much better...


The loss of fearless wounds makes assaulting with the boys alot less risky.



I don't know, in general I feel like assault took a hit to a small degree but also had boons.... Heck I have started playing in a couple local tourneys and have actually been winning them. Makes me feel like the orkz is made fa winnin'

My list has quite a bit of dakka but I don't feel like the shooting phase is pushing my game along. It may have a greater impact than it did before, but I still feel like if you build your list to assault you can still do that, quite adequately.

 Jidmah wrote:

Rejn wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 Bad_Sheep37 wrote:
I'll say it again.... 180 Ork Sluggas is scary....

No, it's not. Just because you fill up the entire table with orks doesn't mean you win. Even when you're not up against purifiers, termor-cons or similar auto-losses, you've only got six slow mediocre combat units, that can be tar-pitted by most walkers in the game.

how do you know it isn't 9 units? Or anything in between, I'm just saying

Because of the FOC? 180x6 =1080 points

And it's hard to tie up a unit of boys with walkers now...
You either run away since you can't hurt it, or your nob starts swinging on it.

I just don't see how effective tarpitting a mob of boyz would be with walkers

You cannot run away from a walker if you are fearless. And if you run away, the walker will sweep your I2 boyz more often than not. That's how you tarpit them. A nob (if you brought one, which most people don't do anymore), and it's still alive, it still has a hard time cracking walker with AV13 and/or the daemon special rule. Unless you bring a warboss, a walker will win the war of attrition more often than not.

thats assuming its <2000pts. instead of getting into an arguement im used to playing 2k exclusively

i didnt realize you couldnt run from combat while fearless due to that new rule that lets you volutarily leave combat

 Jidmah wrote:

 Bad_Sheep37 wrote:
I'll say it again.... 180 Ork Sluggas is scary....

No, it's not. Just because you fill up the entire table with orks doesn't mean you win. Even when you're not up against purifiers, termor-cons or similar auto-losses, you've only got six slow mediocre combat units, that can be tar-pitted by most walkers in the game.

You also have to keep in mind that those 180 boyz are only half of your army. You can still pile in Lootas, Dakka Jets, Nobz, Burnas, or whatever else your Orky heart desires. I'm basing this off of 2000 - 2500 Points. For how cheap 180 Boyz really is, I don't see why you wouldn't want to field them... aside from moving that many models.

I'm just saying its been working for me and shouldn't be rolled out.


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Also.. I dont care how "mediocre" an Ork Boy is... when your charging and rolling over 80-100 dice, you can suck pretty damn bad and still come out on top.

 Bad_Sheep37 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 Bad_Sheep37 wrote:
I'll say it again.... 180 Ork Sluggas is scary....

No, it's not. Just because you fill up the entire table with orks doesn't mean you win. Even when you're not up against purifiers, termor-cons or similar auto-losses, you've only got six slow mediocre combat units, that can be tar-pitted by most walkers in the game.

You also have to keep in mind that those 180 boyz are only half of your army. You can still pile in Lootas, Dakka Jets, Nobz, Burnas, or whatever else your Orky heart desires. I'm basing this off of 2000 - 2500 Points. For how cheap 180 Boyz really is, I don't see why you wouldn't want to field them... aside from moving that many models.

I'm just saying its been working for me and shouldn't be rolled out.

I have a hard time finishing 2k games with 40 boys in under 2 hours at tournaments... I have no idea how you would do it with 180....

The FARTHEST a 2 hour timed tourney game has ever gone for me was completing 4 turns... Typically they last 3 full turns or 2 if your opponent has lots to move/do as well... Very frustrating : /

Granted I have only played about 6 2k tourney games so... Exp is rather limited! ... just thinkin though... I only have about 88 models in my 2k ork army (which I have gotten tons of flack on dakka for)... (40 boys 11 gretchin, 6 manz, 20 lootas, 6 bikes, 2 bosses, 2 wagons, jet).... Can't fathom how some of you move so many boyz per turn.. I can understand in a friendly untimed game... but under any time pressure etc... Props.. .

Jidmah wrote:

Bad_Sheep37 wrote:I'll say it again.... 180 Ork Sluggas is scary....

No, it's not. Just because you fill up the entire table with orks doesn't mean you win.

Sad but true, at least in our current rules edition.

The problem with horde armies has always been force concentration, which has now turned into a near fatal flaw in a world of better shooting, worse cover, and the obligation to take casualties from the front of the squad. If your opponent can kill more inches of boyz per turn than the boyz are able to move forward, the end result isn't going to be anything more than a deployment zone full of corpses.

As mentioned, at large point games, this might be close to only half your points, but its also (assuming 1" displacement - rather close for comfort for me personally), 180 boyz takes up 900 square inches of space. There are only 864 square inches in your average deployment zone. This means that you literally fill your deployment zone with nothing but boyz, and they have to be closer than 1" to each other. Throw anything else on the board, and your boyz are going to have to be packed in close enough to kiss. And then your opponent brings a single manticore...

Hordes have always suffered from problems with diminishing return. After a certain point, more models you add will be models which are farther away from their intended target (which is really bad), and the higher your casualties due to template weapons (likewise). This means that there is a cap in 40k to how strong horde armies can be that's not determined by the cap placed on points. Unsurprisingly, this makes horde players better at lower point games and worse at higher point games.

But to get back to the point, this cap was reduced by changes in 6th ed. Whatever anyone else thinks about their pet army getting nerfed (see GK players for this silly attitude), the plain fact is that horde armies got nerfed harder.

However, I don't share Jidmah's pessimistic attitude that slugga boyz, choppy orks, or even orks in general can't be made to work, and work in their traditional bombastic way. Just because one particular playstyle was ruined doesn't mean that the rest of the codex was. 10 sluggas in a trukk with RPJ is still only 100 points, which is ludicrously cheap. Combine that in a list with a few more of those, and a few buggy or bike squads and as many battlewagons as you can take (one with MANZ), and you've got an army that is going to be capable of a massed turn 2 assault after having softened everything up with rokkits and big shootaz first.

Assault may have gotten generally worse, but if there's someone who can still make assault work, it's orks.

 earlofburger wrote:

check the new ork faq. Thats where this is mentioned. Several other things, like T7 grots manning big guns, are a result of broad rule changes that the 6th edition book brought to all armies

thanks for clearing that up



Anyways I'm currently building an infantry suited ork clan(my first army as well), the main fire power will come from lootas and kannons in the back while a horde of ork sluggas led by a warboss, advance up to the enemy. I choose sluggas because i think they're cooler and more fun but everyone here is saying its suicide to do so. Will i really be that fethed if i go with sluggas?

They way I do it, I have mainly shoota boyz, but one big mob of slugga boyz with the warboss.
People are still more scared of slugga boyz, so I use this big mob which I march right through the middle as the main focus... enemy will have its eyes on avoiding contact with it, rest of army swarms around.

So I'd say at least one mob of slugga boyz is always good, if only bc they force you to think more offencivly, I have the idea you sometimes miss oppertunities with the shoota 'mindset'.

So I'd say mix em.

The 100pt slugga trukk is an interesting Idea, I had never thought of that. If you had a few empty troop slots (say, if you ran a nob heavy list or warbiker list etc.) they could make for a nifty, dirt cheap, and very fast scoring unit. They wouldn't be a very big target, and so would be able to move up fairly easily as long as your opponent has better things to shoot at. Although I doubt it'd be super amazing, I may try that for a couple of fun games and see how it does.

And that's the point. It's like wasting shots at shoota buggies or multilaser scout sentinels. They're so cheap and so relatively unlikely to do damage, that you don't want to be forced to waste perfectly good shots against them when there are much more serious threats. On the other hand, you can't exactly just let them do what they want, as even the remainders of an exploded trukk squad getting into close combat can still be annoying. And they score, and they're really fast, so you should probably stop them because of their potential impact, but it's only 100 points, and it's a crappy unit, and there are MANZ right in front of you now, and those bikes are going to be a way bigger problem, especially since they can deliver klaws, something which the boyz don't even have, but that's because...

... and while your opponent is trying to figure out what annoying unit to shoot at first, everything is in close combat turn two.

The best part is that you could basically dark eldar it. 900 points gets you 6 trukks full of boyz and 9 buggies. That's 13 pieces of AV10 at 1,000 points. Round things out with some looted vehicles/kanz/cheap nobz in trukks and there's going to be just too much junk on the field to be able to handle it all. That and unlike DE, once you blow open those 18 AV10 vehicles... SLUGGAZ AND NOBZ come out and beat your face up, unlike DE, where it's usually just a few puny warriors and maybe a wyche or two that survives.

... If anything, having a 1850 point list wherin all of the vehicles are wrecked means that you're looking at a 1500 point ork army that's now very upset that you wrecked their rides...

Three nekkid nobs in a trukk with rpj is also just 100 points.

 loota boy wrote:
Three nekkid nobs in a trukk with rpj is also just 100 points.

Looks like we finally found a use for the thousands of AoBR nobs that everyone has

I use mine as 'Ard Boyz.

Slugga horde - I say go for it. Although I personally love shoota boyz, if you want CC hoppy boyz then do it. People are mainly freaking about them sucking now because of overwatch. And as long as you dont charge a unit full of TL weapons or things like devourer gants, you dont really have to worry about overwatch. Youll lose around 3 boyz if its a SM unit. Big deal.

Ass load of cheap vehicles - Hey! Now thats a fun idea right there. And my trukks have been collecting dust for a long ass time now.....hmmmmmmm

If you guys are going for low pt count troops, you should run 6 of them, then max out lootas and put them in battlewagons. That should pretty cool.

Also, let's not forget the (original) Buffet rule. At some point in the future, sluggas will be better (or equal to) shootas in quality. If people are abandoning their sluggas in droves right now, then right now is probably the best time to troll ebay to get some great deals on sluggas.

I agree. Its ALWAYS been fairly even as far as shootas and choppas go. I said that same thing earlier, in our next dex, expect something awesome....like the Choppa rule coming back?? That would make my trukk mobs happy campers.


Also when running a trukk mob, you should always take a BW or two to play defensive linemen. And sticking a MAmek and some lootas in one or two of them would be a real treat for anything infront of that line

These are great ideas for Truks and cheap buggies ...

Are some of you still using the old wartrukk ... it looks sooooo small compared to the new one ... I use mines as buggies now.

Also, this thing came up in a recent game against Necrons. My Big Boss (Klaw, Cybork, Armor, Attack Squig) was in a challenge with a Necron-something (I don't now which one) but it had like an invulnerable save of 4+ (if I remember correctly) ... after 2 rounds of combat we were at 1 WP each. So when it attacked me (with it's superior Initiative of "2"), I decided NOT to use my Klaw and bash him with the butt of my gun ... so now hitting at I4, before the Necron-character, I hit him 4 times with 3 wounds ... he saved only 2 ... I killed him before he did ... Is this legal ?

I'm fairly sure that's illegal. If you have a special weapon, unless you have anouther one, you can't elect not to use the weapon. Like you can't just not use your power weapons in an assualt so that you drag the assault out for one turn.

 valminder wrote:
These are great ideas for Truks and cheap buggies ...

Are some of you still using the old wartrukk ... it looks sooooo small compared to the new one ... I use mines as buggies now.

Also, this thing came up in a recent game against Necrons. My Big Boss (Klaw, Cybork, Armor, Attack Squig) was in a challenge with a Necron-something (I don't now which one) but it had like an invulnerable save of 4+ (if I remember correctly) ... after 2 rounds of combat we were at 1 WP each. So when it attacked me (with it's superior Initiative of "2"), I decided NOT to use my Klaw and bash him with the butt of my gun ... so now hitting at I4, before the Necron-character, I hit him 4 times with 3 wounds ... he saved only 2 ... I killed him before he did ... Is this legal ?

I know it is legal if you have a seperate weapon. Mad dok can attack with poisoned weapons, or a power klaw. I think zagstruk has a choppa he can choose to use as well? Unsure.

The thing that only makes this "Questionable Legality" instead of outright "illegal" is the Attack Squig, and even that's iffy. Unless you had a Slugga?

Anvildude wrote:
The thing that only makes this "Questionable Legality" instead of outright "illegal" is the Attack Squig, and even that's iffy. Unless you had a Slugga?

Attack Squig is wargear, thus you always get a +1 A due to it this may never be taken away or removed it is a profile upgrade and nothing more.

People need to understand you may choose to use different wargear but you cannot choose NOT to use wargear anymore. that was done away since 5 edition.

Pistols and Sluggas count as standard close combat weapons which allow you to attack on your basic init.

Power Klaws are specialist weapons with the unweildy characteristic meaning IF it's chosen as one of the weapons wielded it will reduce you to init 1. the problem is you must use these tools and have no choice unless, you are outfitted with Power klaw, Choppa & Slugga this means you are able to use the choppa and slugga and forego the Powerklaw or it's rules. The problem is most orks forgo their choppa for a Power Klaw meaning they are 9 times out of 10 stuck with init 1 at that point. Zagstruk is equiped with all 3 and thus has a choice in avoiding the weapon.

Meganobz have only a power klaw as a close combat weapon and thus cannot remove that.

yadda yadda yadda no avoiding Init 1 less you have alot of wargear. sorry folks

Yea, I'm with big mek, in the upgrades area it says REPLACE choppa with powerclaw. Technically you didn't have a weapon that attacks at normal initiative in CC.

But as the local saying goes around my FLGS, "if you ain't cheatin, you ain't tryin!"
lol

Rejn wrote:
Yea, I'm with big mek, in the upgrades area it says REPLACE choppa with powerclaw. Technically you didn't have a weapon that attacks at normal initiative in CC.

But as the local saying goes around my FLGS, "if you ain't cheatin, you ain't tryin!"
lol

though i hate cheating... it's not actually a bad quote lol. It means you are thinking outside the box and saying "well it doesn't say i can't... does that mean I can?" which is actually the types of questions or reactions i am not oppose to when people want to find power... for example (and I'd never do this) but technically if you read Mad dok Grotsniks "Da big Dok" rule it reads

ANY UNIT IN AN ARMY including Grotsnik may upgrade it's members to have cybork bodies for +5 points per model

this means allies COULD technically have cybork bodies since in theory... they are a "UNIT IN AN ARMY" with grotsnik. Could you imagine?

It's not talked about in the FAQ to my knowledge either.

Likely not yet. so you may be able to swing it for a while. but if the tactic becomes widespread I am sure it will get hit with a "any unit chosen from Codex:Orks" restriction like many of the other things similar to this.

As for slugga boys getting ripped apart by overwatch... I have played less than 10 games in 6th so far but I commonly play as crons vs my friends nids. (mainly because they are my registered DDWWC army) and even with tesla 3 hits on 6's i have not seen overwatch do very well. I count myself lucky if I get 1 kill and extremely fortunate to get 2 kills. and thats vs Gaunts.

Hey now, it's not "Choppa and Slugga" in the Wargear, it's "Choppa" and "Slugga", seperate. And Sluggas are Pistols, and therefore count as a single Close Combat Weapon, right?

Yes, yes they do.

This is a lot of to do about nothing. You can use a pistol in close combat if you want, as it's explicitly stated to count as a close combat weapon (pg. 52). Meanwhile, 6th ed unwrote the rule that if you have a powerfist you MUST use it.

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:

Rejn wrote:
Yea, I'm with big mek, in the upgrades area it says REPLACE choppa with powerclaw. Technically you didn't have a weapon that attacks at normal initiative in CC.

But as the local saying goes around my FLGS, "if you ain't cheatin, you ain't tryin!"
lol

though i hate cheating... it's not actually a bad quote lol. It means you are thinking outside the box and saying "well it doesn't say i can't... does that mean I can?" which is actually the types of questions or reactions i am not oppose to when people want to find power... for example (and I'd never do this) but technically if you read Mad dok Grotsniks "Da big Dok" rule it reads

ANY UNIT IN AN ARMY including Grotsnik may upgrade it's members to have cybork bodies for +5 points per model

this means allies COULD technically have cybork bodies since in theory... they are a "UNIT IN AN ARMY" with grotsnik. Could you imagine?

It's not talked about in the FAQ to my knowledge either.

I agree its a legit and a orky thing to do. The faq does address it by listing "restrictions" Are there any restrictions? just no vehicles or unique characters. hey look, allies are not listed as a restriction. but due to all the other non orky things people are trying with similar rules, I can't see it lasting much longer so do it while you can.

Q. How many units in an army with Mad Dok Grotsnik
can be upgraded to have cybork bodies? Are there any
restrictions (apart from non-vehicle) or can it even be
Gretchin or Independent Characters? (p59)
A. Any number of units can be upgraded. This includes
Gretchin (Super-Gretchin! Cool conversions, but a bit
expensive at 8 pts per model!) and Independent
Characters (except for unique characters), effectively
giving them a 5 pt discount on the cybork body
upgrade.

 Ailaros wrote:
Yes, yes they do.

This is a lot of to do about nothing. You can use a pistol in close combat if you want, as it's explicitly stated to count as a close combat weapon (pg. 52). Meanwhile, 6th ed unwrote the rule that if you have a powerfist you MUST use it.

problem was always with mega nobz tho, you have no pistol or open fist, so you are stuck with PK on a MANZ unit to my understanding.

So does that mean biker nobs could choose to beat their enemies to death with sluggas if they decided I3 was more important than SP 2 S8 in close combat?

This could be a very handy ability if it's true. I know there are times where I would've rather just beat a guy to death with my warboss's bare hands than bother with the extreme overkill of the powerklaw. (for example, fighting some guy who has a crazy axe or fist type weapon that might wound me, on the charge I've got something like 5-6 S6 hits with the slugga anyways, that's usually plenty to kill a guy and avoid any wounds)

I'm fairly sure that's illegal. If you have a special weapon, unless you have anouther one, you can't elect not to use the weapon. Like you can't just not use your power weapons in an assualt so that you drag the assault out for one turn.

Is this written somewhere in the rulebook ?

Page 51 BRB
More than one weapon
If a model has more than one Melee weapon, he must choose which one to attack with when he comes to strike blows - he cannot mix and match the abilities of several different melee weapons. However it is worth noting that if a model has two or more melee weapons he gains +1 attacks in close combat.

Pistols as close combat weapons
A pistol can be used as a close combat weapon, If this id done, use the profile given above - The strength, ap and special rules of the pistol's shooting profile are ignored.

and of course the profile referred to is
close combat weapon range - S user AP - Type Melee

So yeah... I would say if you have a slugga and a power claw you can choose to beat you opponent with the slugga on your faster I phase, but thats only really usefull if you can swing first or at the same time as on i2 or i3. If you are going 2nd anyway there is no reason not to use the power claw.

I don't own the 6th edition rulebook, but I'm pretty sure it is he same. You can choose to use a different weapon, but you can't choose not to use your weapon. Of course, as others have pointed out, the warboss still has a slugga, so he can use that. As long as you didn't claim the extra attack from close combat, you should be fine.

More stuffs to consider.
BRB PG 60
Power Klaw
Range - Sx2 AP2 Type Melee, Specialist Weapon, Unwieldy

BRB PG 42
Specialist Weapon: A model fighting with this weapon does not receive the +1 attack for fighting with two weapons unless both weapons have the specialist weapon rule.

BRB pg 43
Unwieldy: A model attacking with this weapon does so at initiative step 1, unless it is a monstrous creature or a walker.

SO power klaw does not gain +1 attack from slugga as the slugga is not a "specialist weapon"
HOWEVER
if you do have a slugga and power klaw, you do get to choose which one to attack with because unwieldy clearly says "a model attacking with" and not "a model equiped with"
Either way you dont get the +1 attack for 2 weps because PK is a specialist weapon and slugga is not

 keltikhoa wrote:
More stuffs to consider.
BRB PG 60
Power Klaw
Range - Sx2 AP2 Type Melee, Specialist Weapon, Unwieldy

BRB PG 42
Specialist Weapon: A model fighting with this weapon does not receive the +1 attack for fighting with two weapons unless both weapons have the specialist weapon rule.

BRB pg 43
Unwieldy: A model attacking with this weapon does so at initiative step 1, unless it is a monstrous creature or a walker.

SO power klaw does not gain +1 attack from slugga as the slugga is not a "specialist weapon"
HOWEVER
if you do have a slugga and power klaw, you do get to choose which one to attack with because unwieldy clearly says "a model attacking with" and not "a model equiped with"
Either way you dont get the +1 attack for 2 weps because PK is a specialist weapon and slugga is not

Well yeah we all know that. We're talking about choosing between your power klaw and your slugga in combat. By choosing the slugga, you can beat an enemy to death that's wielding an unwieldy weapon as well.

A warboss for example has I4. He could easily keep up with most common infantry, and besides, the only time I would really use said slugga in close combat would be against a dude with a fist, to allow me to have a decent chance of beating him to death before he can swing and put an easy wound on the boss. So even if I'm just I2, that's more than enough to beat another unwieldy opponent.

@ MrMoustaffa
Yes I realize that, see my post prior to that one talking about multiple weapons and choosing. Valminder had asked it if was written anywhere in the BRB and I provided that, Then Loota boy stated about not using the +1 attack and that he had no 6th brb, so I provided the 2nd post talking about not getting the +1 attack

 keltikhoa wrote:
@ MrMoustaffa
Yes I realize that, see my post prior to that one talking about multiple weapons and choosing. Valminder had asked it if was written anywhere in the BRB and I provided that, Then Loota boy stated about not using the +1 attack and that he had no 6th brb, so I provided the 2nd post talking about not getting the +1 attack

Oh ok, my bad. I didn't realize that's what you were speaking about.

As said, much ado about nothing.

If you have a slugga and a power klaw, and you want to pistol whip someone's face in, and your opponent says you have to use your klaw, as them what page that rule can be found on.

And then go buy some soda or have a smoke while he spends the next 10 minutes not finding it.

10) M.A.Nz ignore power weapons...

Can someone please elaborate on this?

25) ... MC vs 30 boyz, 5 rerolls????

If there was an IC wouldn't it be 6 rerolls? Or maybee mat is refering to the nob swinging.
I thought monstrous creatures couldn't be challenged, or am I making things up?

Rejn wrote:
10) M.A.Nz ignore power weapons...

Can someone please elaborate on this?

25) ... MC vs 30 boyz, 5 rerolls????

If there was an IC wouldn't it be 6 rerolls? Or maybee mat is refering to the nob swinging.
I thought monstrous creatures couldn't be challenged, or am I making things up?

Get em boss rule, you can get a re-roll for every 5 members in the squad IIRC the limit is 5. MCs themselves can't be challenged less they are also characters for example a wraithlord can/must accept

And MANz ignore power weapons - Depends on the power weapon. They ignore power swords because those are AP3 now. They wont however, ignore a PF or a power axe, though I MIGHT be wrong on the axe, Ive yet to face a power axe so its stats are not fresh in my head

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:

Rejn wrote:
10) M.A.Nz ignore power weapons...

Can someone please elaborate on this?

25) ... MC vs 30 boyz, 5 rerolls????

If there was an IC wouldn't it be 6 rerolls? Or maybee mat is refering to the nob swinging.
I thought monstrous creatures couldn't be challenged, or am I making things up?

Get em boss rule, you can get a re-roll for every 5 members in the squad IIRC the limit is 5. MCs themselves can't be challenged less they are also characters for example a wraithlord can/must accept

I thought any Monstrous Creature could be challenged.

As for the PW vs MANZ thing, only power axes and power fists/klaws have ap 2. Means that other power weapons are pointless against manz.

Do you have a rulebook? Because most of your questions are pretty clearly mentioned in the rulebook.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:

Rejn wrote:
10) M.A.Nz ignore power weapons...

Can someone please elaborate on this?

25) ... MC vs 30 boyz, 5 rerolls????

If there was an IC wouldn't it be 6 rerolls? Or maybee mat is refering to the nob swinging.
I thought monstrous creatures couldn't be challenged, or am I making things up?

Get em boss rule, you can get a re-roll for every 5 members in the squad IIRC the limit is 5. MCs themselves can't be challenged less they are also characters for example a wraithlord can/must accept

I thought any Monstrous Creature could be challenged.

As for the PW vs MANZ thing, only power axes and power fists/klaws have ap 2. Means that other power weapons are pointless against manz.

Do you have a rulebook? Because most of your questions are pretty clearly mentioned in the rulebook.

I don't but i asked this very question this week on "make da call" in the forums.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/481774.page

Manz have a 2+ armor save and most power weps are AP3

@ mr moustaffa...

GFY

yes I have a rulebook and yes I've read it, due to complications I do not have it nor have I had it with me for about 2 months

I would appreciate fewer synde comments and more helpful ones, thank you

edited for manners and gentlemanly conduct

Just throwing this out there, but I dont think he was being snide at all. And in all honesty, those answers are as clear cut as asking "How do I wound with a shoota?"

Thanks for your answers ... so the Big Boss with a Slugga and a Power Klaw can attack either at I4 or I1 ... I only wanted to be sure I didn't cheat ... my Necron opponent let me do it, but I wanted to be sure for another time.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
And what about the old wartruks, do you still use them for truks ?

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:

Rejn wrote:
10) M.A.Nz ignore power weapons...

Can someone please elaborate on this?

25) ... MC vs 30 boyz, 5 rerolls????

If there was an IC wouldn't it be 6 rerolls? Or maybee mat is refering to the nob swinging.
I thought monstrous creatures couldn't be challenged, or am I making things up?

Get em boss rule, you can get a re-roll for every 5 members in the squad IIRC the limit is 5. MCs themselves can't be challenged less they are also characters for example a wraithlord can/must accept

I thought any Monstrous Creature could be challenged.

As for the PW vs MANZ thing, only power axes and power fists/klaws have ap 2. Means that other power weapons are pointless against manz.

Do you have a rulebook? Because most of your questions are pretty clearly mentioned in the rulebook.

I don't but i asked this very question this week on "make da call" in the forums.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/481774.page

Pm sent to reijn. long story short, wasn't meant to be snide, literally asking if he had it. i know lots of people dont have said rulebook yet, so didnt know if I needed to go real in depth or just throw out a page number and call it a day. No disrespect was intended.

As for the monstrous creature thing, I'll look through it again, but i believe it's mentioned in the challenge or monstrous creature entry that any monstrous creature may be challenged. Need to find the specific page so i can cite this though. I know daemon princes and a lot of the nid ones can be challenged at least.

As for the tiny trukks, I believe they're some of the only models not allowed to be used in "official" GW events as what they used to be. Theyre so much smaller they fall into the same boat as the old rhinos and landraiders. I've heard they make awesome buggies though.

I'm loving our new rules. My Orks just seem more and more competitive the more I play them. Flash gits can ignore cover and armor (with a nice low roll) lootas come down to a quetion of how many, and shootas in a battlewagon are downright killy. Thats not to say anything about nob bikers (so much death right there its disgusting, and the survivability is amazing). mega nobs not having to roll every time they move is great. (not to mention immune to most PW except those that go on their I) I can't see why anyone wouldn't love orks right now unless your stuck on Kans or other stuff.

Also, you'll have to forgive, as I never played ork in 5th ed, but what's so bad about kanz now? I mean absolutely, not just relative to 5th.

I mean you can make a 1500 point list that's 9 canz, 9 buggies, and 6 trukks full of boyz. That's TWENTY FOUR vehicles at 1500 points. That puts dark eldar to shame. I know they're flimsy, but damn if there aren't an awful lot of them. Loaded up with big shootas and rokkits, I'd think they'd even do a decent job whittling things down. Whittled down, at least, to the point where those 60 sluggas that are turn 2 trukk charging will stand a chance, and once said sluggas get in there, it's going to take a lot of pressure off of the vehicles.

This doesn't seem that bad to me.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
And what about the old wartruks, do you still use them for truks ?

you may, but it is considered in poor taste especially if you have the newer versions.

 Ailaros wrote:
Also, you'll have to forgive, as I never played ork in 5th ed, but what's so bad about kanz now? I mean absolutely, not just relative to 5th.

I mean you can make a 1500 point list that's 9 canz, 9 buggies, and 6 trukks full of boyz. That's TWENTY FOUR vehicles at 1500 points. That puts dark eldar to shame. I know they're flimsy, but damn if there aren't an awful lot of them. Loaded up with big shootas and rokkits, I'd think they'd even do a decent job whittling things down. Whittled down, at least, to the point where those 60 sluggas that are turn 2 trukk charging will stand a chance, and once said sluggas get in there, it's going to take a lot of pressure off of the vehicles.

This doesn't seem that bad to me.

I wouldnt say canz are bad, just that I usually find something else that works the angle better, cheaper and faster. I feel that if I wanted rokkits in 6th that badly I can use tau allies and get broadsides in more effectively, in 5th twin linked rokkits from deffcoptas were better (probably still so in 6th, just have a hard time getting them in my list now). big shootas are ok, warbikes (not really cheaper mind you) do it better with a 4+ cover save. Lootas do it with added anti-air support (volume of fire really hurts flyers more than accurate fire in my experience)

as for buggies, I dont feel they have any survivability at all. a single tau fire warrior team can destroy a squad a turn (or severely neuter it) being open topped an ap 2 weapon explodes one on a 4+ pen. Trukks have been a little more survivable for me (I typically run it as a MANZ missile or nobs depending on points) as people want to shoot bolters or other weapons more likely to glance it and save their heavy firepower for the battlewagons.

The list has a lot of merit to it as well. I don't own a lot of canz, (maybe someday) But they are cute. I just wish they weren't so slow and had such a crappy WS.

 Ailaros wrote:
... If anything, having a 1850 point list wherin all of the vehicles are wrecked means that you're looking at a 1500 point ork army that's now very upset that you wrecked their rides...

About 25% of those 1500 points would have been removed as casualties due to kaboom!.

 KingCracker wrote:
Slugga horde - I say go for it. Although I personally love shoota boyz, if you want CC hoppy boyz then do it. People are mainly freaking about them sucking now because of overwatch. And as long as you dont charge a unit full of TL weapons or things like devourer gants, you dont really have to worry about overwatch. Youll lose around 3 boyz if its a SM unit. Big deal.

Ass load of cheap vehicles - Hey! Now thats a fun idea right there. And my trukks have been collecting dust for a long ass time now.....hmmmmmmm

Overwatch isn't the issue. Not being able to multi-assault anymore is. In five turns slugga boyz can kill three units at best, if your enemy is a little lucky on power-armor saves or otherwise, you suddenly only manage to kill two or even just one unit with your huge troops unit. In 5th the huge blob of sluggas would multi-assault two or three marine units at once, and thanks to hidden pk, +1A and +1 Strength kill enough to win the ensuing combat. Doing that in 6th is suicide.

Rejn wrote:
25) ... MC vs 30 boyz, 5 rerolls????

If there was an IC wouldn't it be 6 rerolls? Or maybee mat is refering to the nob swinging.
I thought monstrous creatures couldn't be challenged, or am I making things up?

Most HQ MCs are also characters, those can be challenged. Canifexes, DE talos engines or smiliar can't.

As the nob is doing the fighting, you'd have 29 boyz left to do the cheering, so 5 rerolls.

 Ailaros wrote:
Also, you'll have to forgive, as I never played ork in 5th ed, but what's so bad about kanz now? I mean absolutely, not just relative to 5th.

I mean you can make a 1500 point list that's 9 canz, 9 buggies, and 6 trukks full of boyz. That's TWENTY FOUR vehicles at 1500 points. That puts dark eldar to shame. I know they're flimsy, but damn if there aren't an awful lot of them. Loaded up with big shootas and rokkits, I'd think they'd even do a decent job whittling things down. Whittled down, at least, to the point where those 60 sluggas that are turn 2 trukk charging will stand a chance, and once said sluggas get in there, it's going to take a lot of pressure off of the vehicles.

This doesn't seem that bad to me.

The problem is, that outside of the grotzooka, kanz don't do anything great. They are slow, they can't defeat anyone in close combat, they have only two HP each, and even at BS3, three rokkits aren't that awesome for over 100 points. Not to mention that big gunz are more durable at less points and more or less the same firepower, and by having T7/3+ attract the same type of firepower as AV10 vehicles would. With the appearance of dakkajets, grotzookas don't have the monoply on S6 shots anymore, so people rather use dakkajets for the whatever grotzookas did before.
In addition, they are anti-synergetic with all those other vehicles. Trukks and buggies are very fast, and hit the opponents lines in turn two, no matter the depolyment. Kanz, however, are becoming a threat no earlier than turn three, if your opponent is moving back, as late as turn four. Thus, your opponent can simply ignore them and shoot your trukks and buggies, and handle them later. Because of this, the don't add to armor saturation at all, and you could have fielded pretty much anything else instead.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:


As for the tiny trukks, I believe they're some of the only models not allowed to be used in "official" GW events as what they used to be. Theyre so much smaller they fall into the same boat as the old rhinos and landraiders. I've heard they make awesome buggies though.

I'd like to see something official from GW about this. I don't need someone not allowing me to play my trukks cause of a DakkDakka rumor.

There is no official rule saying that you can't run your old models from GW that i know of, but maybe the UK events have different rulings?

Hell, you can still technically field the cardboard cutout deff-dread if you have it, as it's an official GW model. Wouldn't want to try arguing it with the TO though.

People will not appreciate it (unless they are old Ork players with a taste for nostalgia like me ), but it's legal.

Phydox wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:


As for the tiny trukks, I believe they're some of the only models not allowed to be used in "official" GW events as what they used to be. Theyre so much smaller they fall into the same boat as the old rhinos and landraiders. I've heard they make awesome buggies though.

I'd like to see something official from GW about this. I don't need someone not allowing me to play my trukks cause of a DakkDakka rumor.

As always, it really depends on the tourny organizer. I honestly, can see an argument for both ways. I wouldnt tell someone they cant play with said unit because its old (hell some people collect the old minis) but at the same time, they are shockingly smaller then modern versions. Im sure though, you wont catch flak from most places, and the old rhino isnt nearly as small to the current as the trukk is/was. That thing is definitely in buggy territory.

 KingCracker wrote:

Phydox wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:


As for the tiny trukks, I believe they're some of the only models not allowed to be used in "official" GW events as what they used to be. Theyre so much smaller they fall into the same boat as the old rhinos and landraiders. I've heard they make awesome buggies though.

I'd like to see something official from GW about this. I don't need someone not allowing me to play my trukks cause of a DakkDakka rumor.

As always, it really depends on the tourny organizer. I honestly, can see an argument for both ways. I wouldnt tell someone they cant play with said unit because its old (hell some people collect the old minis) but at the same time, they are shockingly smaller then modern versions. Im sure though, you wont catch flak from most places, and the old rhino isnt nearly as small to the current as the trukk is/was. That thing is definitely in buggy territory.

Ive been playing since about 1998 and have 7 trukks. This is why Im not in a hurry to start replacing them, you need at least three in a list, and for the $$ Im better off just buying Battlewagons. One trukk has got a lot of junk glued on it from my GorkaMorka days. They didnt even make most of the ork vehicle models when I started orks You had to model your own stuff. Hey maybe I can just glue old rhinos to the trukks then they'd be the right size.

Or just get a bunch of dinged up rhinos on Ebay, and paint them as Blood-axe trukks

[user]

 Ailaros wrote:
Also, you'll have to forgive, as I never played ork in 5th ed, but what's so bad about kanz now? I mean absolutely, not just relative to 5th.

I mean you can make a 1500 point list that's 9 canz, 9 buggies, and 6 trukks full of boyz. That's TWENTY FOUR vehicles at 1500 points. That puts dark eldar to shame. I know they're flimsy, but damn if there aren't an awful lot of them. Loaded up with big shootas and rokkits, I'd think they'd even do a decent job whittling things down. Whittled down, at least, to the point where those 60 sluggas that are turn 2 trukk charging will stand a chance, and once said sluggas get in there, it's going to take a lot of pressure off of the vehicles.

This doesn't seem that bad to me.

I used to run kan wall. The way they used to be is av10 with 4+ cover (never run them w/o kff) so all the anti vehicle shots would get absorbed by the kff and in CC unless there was a power weapon they would remain tied up untill they whittled down thier opponents. Kan WS has always sucked but it wasn't much of an issue cause not that much else could kill them in CC.

The problem now aside from everything previously mentioned is that everything in the empirium(spellcheck?) comes with grenades and kans blow up quick when grenades are being tossed around like stones in the middle-east!

I lost 2 squads of kans in one turn to, squads of IG infantry!!! Assaulting my kans!!! There is something way wrong with that picture.

Rejn wrote:
[user]

 Ailaros wrote:
Also, you'll have to forgive, as I never played ork in 5th ed, but what's so bad about kanz now? I mean absolutely, not just relative to 5th.

I mean you can make a 1500 point list that's 9 canz, 9 buggies, and 6 trukks full of boyz. That's TWENTY FOUR vehicles at 1500 points. That puts dark eldar to shame. I know they're flimsy, but damn if there aren't an awful lot of them. Loaded up with big shootas and rokkits, I'd think they'd even do a decent job whittling things down. Whittled down, at least, to the point where those 60 sluggas that are turn 2 trukk charging will stand a chance, and once said sluggas get in there, it's going to take a lot of pressure off of the vehicles.

This doesn't seem that bad to me.

I used to run kan wall. The way they used to be is av10 with 4+ cover (never run them w/o kff) so all the anti vehicle shots would get absorbed by the kff and in CC unless there was a power weapon they would remain tied up untill they whittled down thier opponents. Kan WS has always sucked but it wasn't much of an issue cause not that much else could kill them in CC.

The problem now aside from everything previously mentioned is that everything in the empirium(spellcheck?) comes with grenades and kans blow up quick when grenades are being tossed around like stones in the middle-east!

I lost 2 squads of kans in one turn to, squads of IG infantry!!! Assaulting my kans!!! There is something way wrong with that picture.

Sorry to say, but since they have better WS and they outnumber you it actually makes alot of sense to imagine soliders lob a grenade or the like into the visor especially since the killa kanz cower in fear from a screaming guardsmen line rushing at them.

They are armored walkers, against infantry, 5th edition made kans pretty tough unless you had somethig to fight a walker with, now they are utter pansies.

As stated before, the only thing they are good at/for is grotzookas, I used to use them as tank can openers, but they don't have the staying power for that anymore


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Before 6th killa kans didn't do a whole lot of cowering, they could beat up on most anything thrown at them, especially a line of infantry. But I am compairing 5th with 6th, as was asked for

On the trukk thing, that's just what I had heard. I remembered hearing people complaining on here about it occassionally, but it may have been for a private tourney.

Well, but think about them differently now. Kanz may not be close combat monsters, but they're still shooting platforms. I mean, for only 40 points, you get a big shoota, and the grotzooka seems a steal for only 50 points. Instead of making them choppy, make them shooty.

I mean, it's possible to make a super dakka list this way.

Big Mek, with FKK, combi-skorcha
Big Mek, with FKK, combi-skorcha

10x shoota boyz with big shoota, trukk with RPJ
10x shoota boyz with big shoota, trukk with RPJ
10x shoota boyz with big shoota, trukk with RPJ
10x shoota boyz with big shoota, trukk with RPJ
10x shoota boyz with big shoota, trukk with RPJ
10x shoota boyz with big shoota, trukk with RPJ

Rokkit buggy
Rokkit buggy
Rokkit buggy
Rokkit buggy
Rokkit buggy
Rokkit buggy
Shoota buggy
Shoota buggy
Shoota buggy

Grotzooka Kan
Grotzooka Kan
Grotzooka Kan
Grotzooka Kan
Grotzooka Kan
Grotzooka Kan
Shoota Kan
Shoota Kan
Shoota Kan

For only 1500 points. Spelled out in its entirety, you can see more of the awesome splendor I was talking about.

Plus, we're talking about 18 big shootas (some of which twin-linked or BS3), and 6 TL rokkits, and 6 grotzookas and 56 shootas. That's not a small number of guns. Then we add the fact that it's coming on 24 vehicles, some of which get a 5+ cover save wherever they are, and can be unloading lots of stuff into close combat turn 2, and you've got something that seems legitimately scary to me.

 valminder wrote:
Thanks for your answers ... so the Big Boss with a Slugga and a Power Klaw can attack either at I4 or I1 ... I only wanted to be sure I didn't cheat ... my Necron opponent let me do it, but I wanted to be sure for another time.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
And what about the old wartruks, do you still use them for truks ?

Quick history lesson:

In 4th you got to chose AND got plus 1 attack for PK and Slugga.

In 5th you had no choice, had to use the PK, didn't get an extra attack so migh as well arm those Nobz with Rokkits and Kombi weapons.

And hell yes I still use 1 of my 5 old Trukks but there is a trade-off in that if the opp. surrounds the Trukk and it explodes and I can't place any models, I'll lose them, so it is a double-edge choppa.

Leave it to a Guard player to understand armor saturation in small games

I could see that being a mighty force at small games. I noticed a long time ago, that when done right, Orks can dominate games at 1500pts or less. Our units are so damn cheap we can just flood the table with them. Im rebuilding a bunch of buggies so in bigger games(2k+) I can pack in either 9 rokkit buggies or 6 rokkitbuggies and 3 bigshoota buggies, in addition to my typical 1500pt build, and not sacrifice my new found love of the DAKKAjet


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 PipeAlley wrote:

 valminder wrote:
Thanks for your answers ... so the Big Boss with a Slugga and a Power Klaw can attack either at I4 or I1 ... I only wanted to be sure I didn't cheat ... my Necron opponent let me do it, but I wanted to be sure for another time.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
And what about the old wartruks, do you still use them for truks ?

And hell yes I still use 1 of my 5 old Trukks but there is a trade-off in that if the opp. surrounds the Trukk and it explodes and I can't place any models, I'll lose them, so it is a double-edge choppa.

This is what happens with smaller/larger arguments. It really does go both ways. Id have a heck of a time swarming around a modern trukk, but the old school one, yes, pretty easy to do. And obviously I just need to sneeze and that trukk and everything inside it goes bye bye

 KingCracker wrote:
Leave it to a Guard player to understand armor saturation in small games

I could see that being a mighty force at small games. I noticed a long time ago, that when done right, Orks can dominate games at 1500pts or less. Our units are so damn cheap we can just flood the table with them. Im rebuilding a bunch of buggies so in bigger games(2k+) I can pack in either 9 rokkit buggies or 6 rokkitbuggies and 3 bigshoota buggies, in addition to my typical 1500pt build, and not sacrifice my new found love of the DAKKAjet


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 PipeAlley wrote:

 valminder wrote:
Thanks for your answers ... so the Big Boss with a Slugga and a Power Klaw can attack either at I4 or I1 ... I only wanted to be sure I didn't cheat ... my Necron opponent let me do it, but I wanted to be sure for another time.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
And what about the old wartruks, do you still use them for truks ?

And hell yes I still use 1 of my 5 old Trukks but there is a trade-off in that if the opp. surrounds the Trukk and it explodes and I can't place any models, I'll lose them, so it is a double-edge choppa.

This is what happens with smaller/larger arguments. It really does go both ways. Id have a heck of a time swarming around a modern trukk, but the old school one, yes, pretty easy to do. And obviously I just need to sneeze and that trukk and everything inside it goes bye bye

I thought the inhabitants of a vehicle only got insta gibbed if they vehicle was surrounded and then wrecked, as they couldn't go into base contact with vehicle then move to disembark?

I thought if you exploded a trukk while it was surrounded the only survivors would be those who lived thru explosion and could be placed in crater 1" away from enemy models? (all of those not being able to be placed being counted as casualties?)

skyfi wrote:

 KingCracker wrote:
Leave it to a Guard player to understand armor saturation in small games

I could see that being a mighty force at small games. I noticed a long time ago, that when done right, Orks can dominate games at 1500pts or less. Our units are so damn cheap we can just flood the table with them. Im rebuilding a bunch of buggies so in bigger games(2k+) I can pack in either 9 rokkit buggies or 6 rokkitbuggies and 3 bigshoota buggies, in addition to my typical 1500pt build, and not sacrifice my new found love of the DAKKAjet


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 PipeAlley wrote:

 valminder wrote:
Thanks for your answers ... so the Big Boss with a Slugga and a Power Klaw can attack either at I4 or I1 ... I only wanted to be sure I didn't cheat ... my Necron opponent let me do it, but I wanted to be sure for another time.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
And what about the old wartruks, do you still use them for truks ?

And hell yes I still use 1 of my 5 old Trukks but there is a trade-off in that if the opp. surrounds the Trukk and it explodes and I can't place any models, I'll lose them, so it is a double-edge choppa.

This is what happens with smaller/larger arguments. It really does go both ways. Id have a heck of a time swarming around a modern trukk, but the old school one, yes, pretty easy to do. And obviously I just need to sneeze and that trukk and everything inside it goes bye bye

I thought the inhabitants of a vehicle only got insta gibbed if they vehicle was surrounded and then wrecked, as they couldn't go into base contact with vehicle then move to disembark?

I thought if you exploded a trukk while it was surrounded the only survivors would be those who lived thru explosion and could be placed in crater 1" away from enemy models? (all of those not being able to be placed being counted as casualties?)

Yeah, and the only thing I run is 3-6 MANz with the 40mm bases, which are pretty difficult to place 1" away when an opponent had surrounded the Trukk before it exploded.

Rejn wrote:
They are armored walkers, against infantry, 5th edition made kans pretty tough unless you had somethig to fight a walker with, now they are utter pansies.

As stated before, the only thing they are good at/for is grotzookas, I used to use them as tank can openers, but they don't have the staying power for that anymore


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Before 6th killa kans didn't do a whole lot of cowering, they could beat up on most anything thrown at them, especially a line of infantry. But I am compairing 5th with 6th, as was asked for

in 5th they did plenty of cowering, read your codex entry on them lol

To me, Killa Kans are suppose to be immune to small arms fire and rush into mid range and join the waaagh once they arrive or the kans are needed to hold down a flank or the like. Beleive it or not, Killa kans are not usless they are still an easily spammable strength 10 ap 2 array of fighters who get 3 attacks on the charge, sure they have horrible WS but let me make an observation for you here.

what does a tank do against that other than die because it's still hit on 3+?

What do terminators who have no nades do against that other than pray they had storm shields to survive the attack because anything capable of hurting them are init 1 weaponry and they are init 2?

What can boyz do against them with no nob? Do you know any ork player who buys nades? I don't

What will a carnifrex do against these guys other than die because of init 1?

So ultimately the purpose of the kan is to spray about 6-15 wounds or so with their grotzookas before they charge into close combat... and you are mad because you didn't realize your enemy had ways of dealing with you? Who's fault is that the Kans... or you for charging that enemy who attacks before you with tools able to kill you. That is like charging a group of Howling banshee's with gretchin...

Killa kans are just fine in my opinion i use to run them religiously and I still see good results from friends who still use them, I have enough kans and dreds to run a proper kan wall (9 kans + 2 dreds) and i still know they are very viable infact the only REAL weakness i think they have now besides 2 hull points is the fact that nades hit walkers on something other than 6's and to you that makes them usless? Maybe you should consider something with a higher invulnerability like Battle Wagons carrying nobz instead.

I buy Stikkbomms for all my Orks.

In case anybody's interested in contributing, I've started a thread in an attempt to fix Dread Bash:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/482963.page#4877895

Anvildude wrote:
I buy Stikkbomms for all my Orks.

For what reason if you don't mind me asking? We go very low on init and only 1 little blast with no ap kinda sux...

Well, first off, I started my Ork army with the intention of paying as little real cash as possible for it. I can currently participate comfortably in Apoc games, and I've spent maybe $200 US on it (granted, not the prettiest of armies, but chock full of Orky injenoowity.) So more points per model is great. My only mob of Boyz are 'Ard Boyz, too.

Second, it goes with my All or Nothing ideology. I figure, either pay the bare minimum for everything in order to not worry about it and spam, or go whole hog giving it every chance to succeed. There may not be many situations which call for Stikkbomms, but by Mork, when one comes a' callin', I'll be ready for it.


Also, the moddeling options are neat.

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:

Rejn wrote:
They are armored walkers, against infantry, 5th edition made kans pretty tough unless you had somethig to fight a walker with, now they are utter pansies.

As stated before, the only thing they are good at/for is grotzookas, I used to use them as tank can openers, but they don't have the staying power for that anymore


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Before 6th killa kans didn't do a whole lot of cowering, they could beat up on most anything thrown at them, especially a line of infantry. But I am compairing 5th with 6th, as was asked for

in 5th they did plenty of cowering, read your codex entry on them lol

To me, Killa Kans are suppose to be immune to small arms fire and rush into mid range and join the waaagh once they arrive or the kans are needed to hold down a flank or the like. Beleive it or not, Killa kans are not usless they are still an easily spammable strength 10 ap 2 array of fighters who get 3 attacks on the charge, sure they have horrible WS but let me make an observation for you here.

what does a tank do against that other than die because it's still hit on 3+?

What do terminators who have no nades do against that other than pray they had storm shields to survive the attack because anything capable of hurting them are init 1 weaponry and they are init 2?

What can boyz do against them with no nob? Do you know any ork player who buys nades? I don't

What will a carnifrex do against these guys other than die because of init 1?

So ultimately the purpose of the kan is to spray about 6-15 wounds or so with their grotzookas before they charge into close combat... and you are mad because you didn't realize your enemy had ways of dealing with you? Who's fault is that the Kans... or you for charging that enemy who attacks before you with tools able to kill you. That is like charging a group of Howling banshee's with gretchin...

Killa kans are just fine in my opinion i use to run them religiously and I still see good results from friends who still use them, I have enough kans and dreds to run a proper kan wall (9 kans + 2 dreds) and i still know they are very viable infact the only REAL weakness i think they have now besides 2 hull points is the fact that nades hit walkers on something other than 6's and to you that makes them usless? Maybe you should consider something with a higher invulnerability like Battle Wagons carrying nobz instead.

I already stated that they were great at killing most other vehicles, but right now with only 2 HP and nothing except a 5+ to save them they have deminished greatly in thier battlefield strength. I too have 2 dreads and 9 kans! And back in 5th never lost a game with my kan wall! In 6th they are drastically weaker and I have yet to win a game with my kan wall, they ONLY thing that has changed was the rules set... It's not me nor my ability to play, I'm stating they got weaker! Alot weaker!

I'm happy for you that your kans are still working for you, actually I couldn't really care any less in all honesty. Kans aren't working for me now and I'm selling mine, want another set of kans and dreads?

All vehicles got weaker, and kans took an extra hurt seeing as they ommited dice rolls of 1 or 2 thanks to amored plates, I believe the same happend to immobilized in 5th as well.

Please stop arguing lore with gameplay, lore also stated that the first thing the grots did when given thier new metal bodies was wreck havok on everything around them while killing the boyz who used to pick on him and kick and abuse him before. Aside from all that I'm talking about thier gameplay value in terms of thier cowering.

Maybee I need to attempt to run them differently than in 5th seeing as they are no longer a spear head unit. But there's other things in our army that can do what kans do now better and/or cheaperthan the kans do, and kans still have no staying power on the field, str 5 weapons can still glance them to death easily and they aren't gonna close range with a tank without meeting some infantry with grenades that are gonna prevent them from harmng a tank.

So yes I am upset that my kans got nerfed, but I've moved on. As I'm now doing with this conversation cause it's not productive and neither of us is gonna listen to the other, so I wish you all the best in your games

Ailaros: You lists has a lot of flaws, but there really is little point in arguing about them over and over again. Borrow those models, try fighting good playeres with it, see how it does.
I can see that list getting crushed very easily by your common guard, space wolves and ork lists. You hardly have anything to handle MEQ and their vehicles, so Blood Angels, Codex Marines and Grey Knights will also give your a run for your money. You can't handle monstrous creatures or close combat experts so nidz and daemons will most likely tear you apart as well. Actually, you really can't handle anything but light infantry and light vehicles.
Oh, and a KFF mek may not take a combi-skorcha, but he can take a burna.

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:

what does a tank do against that other than die because it's still hit on 3+?

A tank would move out of their way and keep snap-firing. Or shoot an ordnance weapon at them and attempt to kill two at once. I had a vindicator single-handedly wiping out nine kanz in one game, without me being able to hurt it, except for a few glances to the side.

What do terminators who have no nades do against that other than pray they had storm shields to survive the attack because anything capable of hurting them are init 1 weaponry and they are init 2?

That would be awesome, if kanz could actually kill all the terminators. On average they kill 2.5 terminators on the charge, 1.7 if charged. Assuming a regular landraider full of TDA, they simply kill all your kanz in return. If there is even a single stormshield in the unit, you'll most likely not kill anything. If there is a character, you're boned anyways. Oh, and overwatch with CML, assaultcannons or heavy flamers can also hurt kanz. Besides, quite a lot of terminators can still hurt kanz at initiative, due to rending(Mark of the Wulfen), bonus strength (Frost Blade, Hammerhand, Furious Charge, Power Maul) or simply having krak grenades (GK Terminators).

What can boyz do against them with no nob? Do you know any ork player who buys nades? I don't

Considering that ork grenades are S3, they are irrelevant anyways. The real question is, what do kanz do against boyz if they have a nob? Or a warboss? They get killed, that's what they do.

What will a carnifrex do against these guys other than die because of init 1?

Oh yeah, you mean if you get the charge on the only MC in the game going at I1? Which will totally tear your kanz appart, stomp all over them, and then convert the gretchin inside into biomass if it gets the charge instead?
Not to mention the slight chance (about 40%) of your nine attacks not killing it, and the carnifex getting a kanned meal anyways. All, of course, assuming that the carnifex was not buffed by any of the psychers and is fielded alone, rather than in a larger unit size.
Sorry for the sarcasm, but you really are cherry-picking highly unlikely scenarios in which the kanz really are ok.

So ultimately the purpose of the kan is to spray about 6-15 wounds or so with their grotzookas before they charge into close combat... and you are mad because you didn't realize your enemy had ways of dealing with you? Who's fault is that the Kans... or you for charging that enemy who attacks before you with tools able to kill you. That is like charging a group of Howling banshee's with gretchin...

First of all, gretchin will most likely kill howling banshees if they charge them.
Second, the list of enemy that can't handle you, is pretty short: You can basically kill troops (none coming from the IoM though), ranged fire support, and non-combat walkers. If your opponent plays vanilla space marines, grey knights, space wolves blood angels, black templar, dark angels or chaos space marines, there is not a single non-vehicle unit on the board that your kanz could handle in close combat.

Killa kans are just fine in my opinion i use to run them religiously and I still see good results from friends who still use them, I have enough kans and dreds to run a proper kan wall (9 kans + 2 dreds) and i still know they are very viable infact the only REAL weakness i think they have now besides 2 hull points is the fact that nades hit walkers on something other than 6's and to you that makes them usless? Maybe you should consider something with a higher invulnerability like Battle Wagons carrying nobz instead.

Religion is the opposite of reason. Besides, I already gave a conclusive list of things which make kanz bad. If you choose to turn a blind eye to half of those, there is nothing I can do.

@ rejn

Ugh... never said i am using kan wall, infact i said I have seen KANS used well in a friends army not kan wall.

Arguing fluff is harmless especially when it's 1 sentence so i think your over-reacting to my posts

You should probably take a second and realize someone isn't attacking you when they say "You are doomcalling"

@ jidmah

Sorry bout the vindicator that's rough but arguably would happen to anyone kans are not the flaw to that circumstance they are just the example, war walkers, sentiels dreadnoughts, hell even predators or land raiders fall victim to a vindicator pie-plates. I think the example is bad but this is only bad because of the no longer 1/2 strength rule which helped just as much as it hurt IMO since kans can still have a 4 in (or 1 kan per pie plate) coherency. far as a tank moving off or away this doesn't make alot of sense unless you barely caught the thing. In your own circumstance a vindicator shouldn't be able to fire it's pie-plate due to snap shotting, and you should be able to catch it again next round unless you roll a poor charge range. Since a tank can't ram unless moving cruising speed this also means the tank can only retreat not move past so it's not like you don't have options there.

Your termie examples are not really the norm i see in combat but they are valid comments i suppose. I am the type of person who gambles with an intention I'd charge termies even if they had a krak shot coming my way because even if it hits it needs a 4+ to pene me and even then a 1 in 3 chance it impacts me severly and a 1 in 6 chance + a 50/50 split it removes my dreadnought close combat weapon before i get in. considering the rending is never a good idea to run at I agree with you but the extra strength items are normally moot if you are charging them if i not most of these options other than frost blades (which can only glance and power mauls which are the only legitamate worry amongst the list I've seen other than rending wulfen. The krak grenade GK's ... come on grey knights have more nades than a juggler knows what to so with >.>. This honestly boils down to splitting hairs on this part I think man... we both are very smart players (at least i'd like to think I am). We both know what not to charge and every bit of advice like (Kans > Termies) has it's exceptions but this really is only noted as being grey knights and Space wolves (though most don't take mark because they won't be able to use wargear)

the 30 orks vs 3 kans is amazingly one sided in ork favor though because the kans cannot put the attacks where they want you do long as you have at least 6 other orks in base to base which we both know shouldn't be hard. The nob is the one who does all the damage of course but in this example it's just a tarpit scenario. and our nades aren't krak obviously (God i wish they were...) but most armies can take them IMO THIS is the biggest weakness of kans now and days.

I am scratching my head at you saying I am cherry picking though, It's generally smarter to combat base lines rather than upgraded lines for things like FNP or the like because honestly who would attack a carnifrex with just 3 kans in the first place? I'd have a wave of boyz backing them always. And because I normally plunk kannon shots and rokkits from my kans before charging the Frex always goes down with no issue for me even with buffs... >.>

I'm shocked you think gretchin beat banshees however, init 10 multi attacks that actually hit 3+ and wound 3+ before the gretchin dies due to no armor save. While the Gretchin would hit on 5+ due to low WS and wound on 5+ due to low strength and then give the banshee's 4+ armors if we were lucky enough to actually wound. So 60 attacks turns to 20 hit which turns to 6.5 wounds which reduces down to about 3 wounds, keep in mind these numbers would be a full squad of 30 grots on the charge not being so much as hurt by the banshee's attacks which happen before init.

Just so you know Jidmah I agree with you about kanz i don't run them at this time because I think they aren't very potent and I would rather have battlewagons or Kannons. HOWEVER i don't think they are god awful, they serve a minor function of strength 10 vehicle cracking in CC and immune to strength 4 and lower gunfire which is handy. In a friendly no hostility game they aren't a bad choice since they are cheap but i would personally rather have something else. I think both you and rejn might just be reading into my thoughts without giving it the proper forethought first. I am not saying Kans are good I am saying no need to be pissy about their prefromance I am sure either one of us could easily make due with these units added to our list and probably see some shine from them if we tried. But you and I aren't those types of people to fight with what we ultimately know isn't the best tools.

In short, It's just a killa kan this edition nerfed the most powerful tactic of last edition for orks but I can speak from personal experience and say Kanwall last edition was the cheesiest thing I ever ran and I always felt self conscious about running them. The model is still very awesome looking and I am tempted to use them in my small 500-1000 pt leagues but in a big bad game yeah they are one of the last things I'll suggest. But my original reason on combating the view that cans are worthless is because if you charge an IG line with Krak nades the forging a narrative or using your imagination rather it makes sense that a charging group of soliders running at moving pill boxes armed with nades might pull a "D-day" style move and bombard these cowering kans with lasgun fire to distract them and a few brave soldiers due the needed deed while dodging whirling buzzsaws and snipping scissors.

Viable vs suggested ... suggested wins. Viable just means I could make it work in a pinch.

Just calm down folks make your own lists and try to take forum posts with a grain of salt and/or humility please no need to get ugly or butthurt about it

Rejn wrote:

...Kans aren't working for me now and I'm selling mine, want another set of kans and dreads?

So yes I am upset that my kans got nerfed...

Rejn Ive been dancing with GW for a long time.

The way GW seems to use "sale of units" to determine how to update a new codex, I would just take your Kans and Deff Dreds, tuck them away nice and safe, and wait till the next ork codex in a few years.

A new ork codex is probably gonna make sluggas and choppas, flash gitz, kommandos, storm boyz, dreds and kans great but make lootas, and battle wagons suck. Cause Lootas and the BW are selling but those other things are not.

Except for that really bad, old Chaos Codex, I rarely look forward to a new codex cause it means shelving units that have been working and either touching up or buying crappy units that are now good. Each new codex means dropping $100+ dollars to get my army working again.

All it takes is for them to say "Kans aren't selling, lets make them like space marine terminators! with SS/TH! " and kans would be right back in the game with every ork player needing five of them.

@ Worrzog,
you came off as argueing that kans haven't deminshed, and that they are just about as good as they used to be, truth is someone asked how they compaired and I was making the comparrison to how they worked in both editions and you jumped in.

It can be a mixed message you not attacking somebody when your telling them that they suck at playing kans and need to switch to a model that is easier to play. It is insulting, especially since kans are the first thing I started rolling with. TBH Kans, nobs, and deffkoptas are all I really know of the ork list right now.

I don't math hammer, I just play the units and see what works and what doesn't. Right now kans don't work, at least not the same way they used to.

I did get defensive, I felt you were attacking my points of view, but you say it's a misunderstanding so it's all good



@phydox,

thanks for the heads up, I've only been competing at my FLGS's 2k points level for about 6 months. I first started getting pieces for my army in january this year. I'll take all the advice I can get from you veterans

Rejn wrote:All vehicles got weaker

Yes, they did, but foot units got weakerER. Relative to 5th ed, vehicles are weaker, but relative to foot in 6th, vehicles got stronger

Rejn wrote: Kans aren't working for me now and I'm selling mine, want another set of kans and dreads?

Absolutely. If you think that they're that worthless, I assume they're going to be going for extra cheap?

Jidmah wrote:Ailaros: You lists has a lot of flaws, but there really is little point in arguing about them over and over again.

No, there really isn't if you're just going to make assertions. I find it curious that you can't see how space marines would fail armor saves in the face of all that dakka. I furthermore fail to see the problem against nidzilla, as there is more than enough firepower to handle the gribblies, and lots of high-strength firepower for the bigger ones, who will, on occasion, fail armor saves. I guess S8 rokkits can't do anything against vehicles after all?

In any case, you're clearly very emotionally charged about ork vehicles being terrible right now, so there's nothing that can be done but to profit by it. Perhaps you'd be interested in offloading a bunch of minis that you consider junk now?

There is one additional bit of info regarding Kanz which has yet to be addressed and that is mobility. Kanz were always slow and could either Run or Shoot but in 6th now what ever the Kanz were chasing can move 6" and fire Heavy Snaps or if a Vehicle, move 12" and fire Snap. Therefore Kanz took a relative hit compared to their prey.

Right now they way I see it, Kanz are kinda like MANz and kinda like Big Gunz. In the end, their weapons are too short ranged and any enemy unit can run circles around them. If we had Drop Pods that could drop a unit of 3, or Tellyportas, we could through Kanz at the enemy, but for now, I am done running Kanz.

I started playing Kult Of Speed 10 years ago and am looking forward to using Bikes, DeffKoptas, and the closest thing we have to a MC, The BikerBoss.

 PipeAlley wrote:
There is one additional bit of info regarding Kanz which has yet to be addressed and that is mobility. Kanz were always slow and could either Run or Shoot but in 6th now what ever the Kanz were chasing can move 6" and fire Heavy Snaps or if a Vehicle, move 12" and fire Snap. Therefore Kanz took a relative hit compared to their prey.

Right now they way I see it, Kanz are kinda like MANz and kinda like Big Gunz. In the end, their weapons are too short ranged and any enemy unit can run circles around them. If we had Drop Pods that could drop a unit of 3, or Tellyportas, we could through Kanz at the enemy, but for now, I am done running Kanz.

I started playing Kult Of Speed 10 years ago and am looking forward to using Bikes, DeffKoptas, and the closest thing we have to a MC, The BikerBoss.

I agree with your logic. But when it comes to Bastions and Fortress's I'm thinking Kanz might be our best way to try and deal with them.

Recently played a game with the following:

1 KFF Mek, cybork, with burna
1 SAG MEK cybork, ammo runt

3 25 boy mobs of slugga boyz, each with a pk nob placed where he could not be challanged, but would advance into the assault.

2 20 boy mobs of shoot boyz, nob only had pole upgrade.

11 tank bustas, pk nob, and 2 hammers.
13 lootas.


Deployment was DoW, and Mission was Emporor's will. it took my opponent 6 turns to clear me off my objective, and i still had a denial unit in range. i also had a nearly untouched unit of boyz on his objective, which was contested by a loan seargent who would not die.

before you ask, he had tailored his list to include mass templates, and had 2 storm ravens (Angry Marines played as BA) I had cold dice whenever i shot at anything armored, and he had the ravens alpha strike my tank bustas the first chance he got.

I think that we should get something akin to a WebWay Portal in our next codex. That would be absolutely insane. Charging 90 boyz out of one or two of those would wreck face.

@ anvildude,

you know you can have the stikkbombs modeled without them actually having stikkbombs.
As for the points if your looking to waste points and have as few models as possible, field a warboss and ghaz, and the rest manz and nobs, maybee some stormboyz if it's your fancy, wasting the points on stikkbombs is kinda like toting grots in a BW

Big Mek Dattrukk wrote:3 25 boy mobs of slugga boyz, each with a pk nob placed where he could not be challanged

I would be very, very careful about this if I were you. The only ways I've seen that justify a nob not being challengeable have been an interpretation of the rules that invalidate the entire challenge system. For example, if you're going to tout how if a model isn't engaged, it can't be challenged, then nobody can ever challenge anymore, as no one is engaged at the time challenges are issued. Elsewhere in the rules for challenging, it says that you have to move the models as far as possible, even moving other models out of the way, in order to get the challenge models into base contact. This rather implies that they didn't intend distance of models to be pertinent to whether someone can receive a challenge or not.

Imstead of starting that arguement back up can we all just assume everyone has read that thread?

We can't, actually (or else people wouldn't make comments about keeping nobz out of challenges). In any case, it's more of a public service announcement than an attempt to derail the thread.

Carry on.

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:

@ jidmah

Sorry bout the vindicator that's rough but arguably would happen to anyone kans are not the flaw to that circumstance they are just the example, war walkers, sentiels dreadnoughts, hell even predators or land raiders fall victim to a vindicator pie-plates. I think the example is bad but this is only bad because of the no longer 1/2 strength rule which helped just as much as it hurt IMO since kans can still have a 4 in (or 1 kan per pie plate) coherency. far as a tank moving off or away this doesn't make alot of sense unless you barely caught the thing. In your own circumstance a vindicator shouldn't be able to fire it's pie-plate due to snap shotting, and you should be able to catch it again next round unless you roll a poor charge range. Since a tank can't ram unless moving cruising speed this also means the tank can only retreat not move past so it's not like you don't have options there.

That's theory though. You can't march kanz at max coherency across the board unless you want to be moving through difficult terrain a lot, and they can't jump over impassible terrain anyways. You shouldn't take three hits from a large blast, but two can happen quite often.
In addition, my opponent was quite a good player (Black Templar player), he used PotMS to move and shoot, always having terrain or even his own units in the way. Even without PotM, kanz move 6", vindicator moves 6" and can shoot at 24" range. It also was just a random example. Replace vindicator with Maticore, LRBT, Boomwagen, OSR or similar, and you get the same result.

Your termie examples are not really the norm i see in combat but they are valid comments i suppose.

How so? I pretty much named every terminator unit in the game besides Deathwing and Codex Marine shooty terminators. All others have access to one of more those options to hurt kanz.

I am the type of person who gambles with an intention I'd charge termies even if they had a krak shot coming my way because even if it hits it needs a 4+ to pene me and even then a 1 in 3 chance it impacts me severly and a 1 in 6 chance + a 50/50 split it removes my dreadnought close combat weapon before i get in. considering the rending is never a good idea to run at I agree with you but the extra strength items are normally moot if you are charging them if i not most of these options other than frost blades (which can only glance and power mauls which are the only legitamate worry amongst the list I've seen other than rending wulfen.

The problem is, two glances kill a kan. Definitely. You can't spread the hull point losses around like in 5th, so taking two glances and/or pens means one dead kan, which is much worse than losing a DCCW.

The krak grenade GK's ... come on grey knights have more nades than a juggler knows what to so with >.>. This honestly boils down to splitting hairs on this part I think man... we both are very smart players (at least i'd like to think I am). We both know what not to charge and every bit of advice like (Kans > Termies) has it's exceptions but this really is only noted as being grey knights and Space wolves (though most don't take mark because they won't be able to use wargear)

Yeah, but keep in mind that were talking about non-assault terminators here. Assault terminators always bring storm shields and TH, so they might even come at the kanz by themselves. Shooty terminators might also just move away from them - that's what relentless is for.

the 30 orks vs 3 kans is amazingly one sided in ork favor though because the kans cannot put the attacks where they want you do long as you have at least 6 other orks in base to base which we both know shouldn't be hard. The nob is the one who does all the damage of course but in this example it's just a tarpit scenario. and our nades aren't krak obviously (God i wish they were...) but most armies can take them IMO THIS is the biggest weakness of kans now and days.

The nob still hits on 3s, so it kills one or two kanz a turn. Hardly a tarpit.

I am scratching my head at you saying I am cherry picking though, It's generally smarter to combat base lines rather than upgraded lines for things like FNP or the like because honestly who would attack a carnifrex with just 3 kans in the first place? I'd have a wave of boyz backing them always. And because I normally plunk kannon shots and rokkits from my kans before charging the Frex always goes down with no issue for me even with buffs... >.>

Well, it's really the only time kanz have chance at taking on any MC in the game and emerge victorious ever. And it gets +2I when on the charge - which brings me to the next point, why should you get the charge on the carnifex, and not the other way around? The kanz aren't exactly faster than it is. If you bring boyz anyways, why did you bring kanz? From experience, a mob with a pk nob will reliably put down a carnifex in two player turns.

I'm shocked you think gretchin beat banshees however, init 10 multi attacks that actually hit 3+ and wound 3+ before the gretchin dies due to no armor save. While the Gretchin would hit on 5+ due to low WS and wound on 5+ due to low strength and then give the banshee's 4+ armors if we were lucky enough to actually wound. So 60 attacks turns to 20 hit which turns to 6.5 wounds which reduces down to about 3 wounds, keep in mind these numbers would be a full squad of 30 grots on the charge not being so much as hurt by the banshee's attacks which happen before init.

Howling banshees have one attack base, and two ccw, for a total of 20 attacks. You lose three of those due to runtherds, then hit 11, wound and kill about 8 gretchin. 22 gretchin and three runtherds strike back, hitting on 4+ (banshees are WS4), so 22 hits from gretchin and 5 from runtherds, 7 wounds from gretchin and 3 from runtherds, killing a total of 5 banshees. Unless the gretchin run away even with rerolls, the units wipe out each other. Seems like a great idea to me. You could just charge and crush them with boyz though.

In short, It's just a killa kan this edition nerfed the most powerful tactic of last edition for orks but I can speak from personal experience and say Kanwall last edition was the cheesiest thing I ever ran and I always felt self conscious about running them.

Agree, they were too good. I never lost a single game with my kan wall, even when I just assembled them and had now idea what to do with them beside putting them in front of my boyz and and a kff behind them. I think the new cover rules by themselves were enough of a nerf for the kan wall, but kanz got hit by pretty much everything they changed. They were jacks of all trades with decent survivability before. Take away survivability and all you have left is a unit which can't do anything well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

sirlynchmob wrote:I agree with your logic. But when it comes to Bastions and Fortress's I'm thinking Kanz might be our best way to try and deal with them.

Oh, my biker boss just recently punched the tower of a fortress of redemption and it blew up, getting the most spectacular first blood ever by killing a total of 31 guardsmen.

You could just charge and crush them with boyz though.

Well duh, very little withstands da Boyz!

That is a very true statement. There is a list of things that is a bad idea to tackle with boyz. But its a small list

 Ailaros wrote:

Big Mek Dattrukk wrote:3 25 boy mobs of slugga boyz, each with a pk nob placed where he could not be challanged

I would be very, very careful about this if I were you. The only ways I've seen that justify a nob not being challengeable have been an interpretation of the rules that invalidate the entire challenge system. For example, if you're going to tout how if a model isn't engaged, it can't be challenged, then nobody can ever challenge anymore, as no one is engaged at the time challenges are issued. Elsewhere in the rules for challenging, it says that you have to move the models as far as possible, even moving other models out of the way, in order to get the challenge models into base contact. This rather implies that they didn't intend distance of models to be pertinent to whether someone can receive a challenge or not.

The rules are fine, and you can keep nobz out of challenges. pg 64, If your character and the enemy character are engaged, and they issue/accept a challenge, then you move them into b2b. If either are not engaged, then they can not issue/accept challenges and stay put. You're still skipping/ignoring page 21 where it spells out the purpose of the charge move is to engage as many models as possible.

So after the charge move you will have engaged models.

*just responding so the answer is here as well*
*now back to our regularly scheduled thread*

sirlynchmob wrote:

 PipeAlley wrote:
There is one additional bit of info regarding Kanz which has yet to be addressed and that is mobility. Kanz were always slow and could either Run or Shoot but in 6th now what ever the Kanz were chasing can move 6" and fire Heavy Snaps or if a Vehicle, move 12" and fire Snap. Therefore Kanz took a relative hit compared to their prey.

Right now they way I see it, Kanz are kinda like MANz and kinda like Big Gunz. In the end, their weapons are too short ranged and any enemy unit can run circles around them. If we had Drop Pods that could drop a unit of 3, or Tellyportas, we could through Kanz at the enemy, but for now, I am done running Kanz.

I started playing Kult Of Speed 10 years ago and am looking forward to using Bikes, DeffKoptas, and the closest thing we have to a MC, The BikerBoss.

I agree with your logic. But when it comes to Bastions and Fortress's I'm thinking Kanz might be our best way to try and deal with them.

Well, to be honest, buildings did not factor into my calculations one iota so I'll give you that one, but I did enjoy Jidmah's response and thus exalted it.

Anvildude wrote:
I buy Stikkbomms for all my Orks.

That's expensive.

 PipeAlley wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

 PipeAlley wrote:
There is one additional bit of info regarding Kanz which has yet to be addressed and that is mobility. Kanz were always slow and could either Run or Shoot but in 6th now what ever the Kanz were chasing can move 6" and fire Heavy Snaps or if a Vehicle, move 12" and fire Snap. Therefore Kanz took a relative hit compared to their prey.

Right now they way I see it, Kanz are kinda like MANz and kinda like Big Gunz. In the end, their weapons are too short ranged and any enemy unit can run circles around them. If we had Drop Pods that could drop a unit of 3, or Tellyportas, we could through Kanz at the enemy, but for now, I am done running Kanz.

I started playing Kult Of Speed 10 years ago and am looking forward to using Bikes, DeffKoptas, and the closest thing we have to a MC, The BikerBoss.

I agree with your logic. But when it comes to Bastions and Fortress's I'm thinking Kanz might be our best way to try and deal with them.

Well, to be honest, buildings did not factor into my calculations one iota so I'll give you that one, but I did enjoy Jidmah's response and thus exalted it.

I wouldnt really worry about bastions and fortresses though. EDL sure, those are a dime a dozen now, but the others, not so much. In bigger games I could see them popping up more, but they get rather pricey fast

Has anybody actually run a Deff Dread this edition?

So can Snikrot still take Ghazzy with him on the backboard edge and Split them up as they walk onto the board and assault the rear armor of two different tanks?

 Vasarto wrote:
So can Snikrot still take Ghazzy with him on the backboard edge and Split them up as they walk onto the board and assault the rear armor of two different tanks?

Cant assault the turn you walk onto the board from reserve, but other than that i believe you are right.

Dr. What wrote:
Has anybody actually run a Deff Dread this edition?

I ran some in a fun game. I reversed the idea of kan wall a bit to do it, 3 dreads behind 2 bwagons full on nobz. Opponent was busy with the wagons so they got into CC. It was against nids so I didnt have to worry about grenades but smash is REALLY good at killing walkers. or any vehicle for that matter. my experience, too many things can kill them ez. MC's eat em easy even if its a non cc oriented MC. Infantry with nades can kill em easy, tanks can kill em easy on the way to em w/o proper screen. I love my deffdreads but yeah they are at best a so so unit now.

Don't the battlewagons outrun the deff dreads?

Did it work for you when deploying on small board edges?

So, all my usual disclaimers in place, I too don't get the point of deff dreads in this edition. Especially compared to kanz. Dreads cost a lot more, for AV12, granted, but really for close combat weapons which are now much, much worse, especially in a world of units that can't hurt walkers being able to voluntarily break from an I2 unit.

Kanz at least are nearly analogous with buggies in the dakka category.

The deff dread is basically an extra warboss in your troops/heavy support slot. AV12 is weak though. I usually proxy them as mega dreads. Those things are awesome, I really hope we get something similar in the next codex.

Yea that would be nice, and possible as well. I think if your spamming walkers, they are OK, or in friendly games, but there is a reason I only build 2 dreds, and its mostly because it was fun to do.

 Jidmah wrote:
Don't the battlewagons outrun the deff dreads?

Did it work for you when deploying on small board edges?

Yes they out run them, but since it was a friendly game and he was nids we ended up basically stacking mid and getting into a grand melee, so didnt really apply in the game. if it were vs an army that made me chase them down with the wagons then yes the wagons get too far ahead and the dreads fall farther and farther behind. Its not a tactic I would suggest using. Just something I tried caus I was interested. trying to think outside the box if you will to maybe breath life back into dreads.

Difficult situations inspire ingenious solutions.

I went to play some 40k at my local spot today, and realized that somehow I had forgotten one of my army bags and only had about 1/2 my army. Rather then go all the way home again, I borrowed two chimeras off a fellow and made this list to play a 1850 pt game:

Wazzdakka
Trukks (12) boyz nob bp
Trukks (12) boyz nob bp
Trukks (12) boyz nob bp pk
Bikes(6)
Bikes(7)
Gretchin(10)- in ADL
Tankbustas(10)
Deffkopta x2
Deffkopta x2
Aegis Defense line
Big Gunz kannon x3 3 additional grots 3 ammo runts
Lootas(5) meks x3 KMB x3
Lootas(5) meks x3 KMB x3

Looted wagon- skorcha big shootax2 ard case
Looted wagon- skorcha big shootax2 ard case

The small loota units road around in the looted wagon blasting stuff. It was fun to finally be on the other end of squad jumping out of a chimera and blasting three plasma shots at vehicles. Because the meks had mek tools, they were able to make repairs too. Pesky unit for 145 pts.

 keltikhoa wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Don't the battlewagons outrun the deff dreads?

Did it work for you when deploying on small board edges?

Yes they out run them, but since it was a friendly game and he was nids we ended up basically stacking mid and getting into a grand melee, so didnt really apply in the game. if it were vs an army that made me chase them down with the wagons then yes the wagons get too far ahead and the dreads fall farther and farther behind. Its not a tactic I would suggest using. Just something I tried caus I was interested. trying to think outside the box if you will to maybe breath life back into dreads.

Well, I could actually see that army working, as (unlike kanz) you could field deff dreads as troops without wasting precious heavy support slots. That's why I'm asking

 Jidmah wrote:

Well, I could actually see that army working, as (unlike kanz) you could field deff dreads as troops without wasting precious heavy support slots. That's why I'm asking

It showed some potential... but not a whole lot. maybe some more trial games. I was runing 2 warbosses so the wagons full of nobs were my troops. You may be right though, 2 big meks w lootas and or burnas in wagons to keep em rolling and the 2 dreads as troops may work. Just dont fight necrons

 Jidmah wrote:
The deff dread is basically an extra warboss in your troops/heavy support slot. AV12 is weak though. I usually proxy them as mega dreads. Those things are awesome, I really hope we get something similar in the next codex.

I've thought about doing this, but haven't tried it out yet. What are your thoughts on how to arm Mega Dreads? The Kill-Kannon is so worthless on the Battlewagon, does it work better on a Mega-Dread? The default loadout on a Mega Dread at least makes SLIGHTLY more sense this edition. Last edition it was just stupid. Mega Dread comes with a Kill Kannon and two Big Shootas. Well, that's great except that if you fire an Ordinance Weapon, you can't fire any other weapons. Of course you're going to fire the Kill-Kannon, so what is the point of even giving the Mega Dread Big Shootas that it is never going to use? Now in 6th edition this is somewhat better in that at least the Big Shootas can fire Snap Shots, which is I suppose better than nothing.

Do you run it in the default configuration, or is there a better configuration you've found? Personally I'd be tempted to run the default configuration and add another Big Shoota, OR I'd replace the Kill Kannon with another Rippa Klaw, and give it a Mega-Charga and Grot Riggers.

How well do nob bikers work now? Are they still good, or are MANZ in a battlewagon better?

Bikers are rocking as well as ever.

Bikes still do very well. More so now even (thanks to hammer of wrath, and true t5) They still get extremely costly once you add in klaws and the such.

I typically like to run lists with a group of bikes w/ 2 klaws and biker boss w/ klaw, and a squad of 4 mega nobs + megaboss... gives me 8 klaws in their deployment usually, and not concentrated in a single unit.. typically can split bosses off and (hopefully) wreck/wipe out 4 units/targets a turn (or at least tie them up)... granted you can't do it vs all opponents. some units will be too hard to send the MANZ or bikes in w/o a boss. (Power sword/maul toting death company w/ reculsiarch being one that the bikes have a hard time with from my exp)

Well, I'm thinking of using them mainly as a support unit in my lists. Probably just one unit of 5 with the biker boss. Then I'd see if I wanted another or wanted to expand the squad.


Is this the usual layout for Nob Bikers: PK, BP + PK, 1 BP, 1 BC, Painboy, all cyborks?

For 5 I think norm is: painboy, pk+bp, pk+waaagh banner, bc x2 or 1 with choppa/slugga

All cybork

If you go up in size I would add a 2nd bosspole, heck having 2 in a squad of 5 ain't a bad idea

Murrdox wrote:The Kill-Kannon is so worthless on the Battlewagon

Will somebody please explain this?

For the imperial guard, everybody loves the LRBT. 170 points gets you a S8 Ap3 large blast, and 3 heavy bolters, with 3HP worth of AV14. Meanwhile, for 170 points, you get a S7 Ap3 large blast, and 4 "heavy bolters", with 4HP worth of open-topped AV14. These two units seem virtually identical. Why do ork players hate killcannon battlewagons so much when the imperial guard loves their russes?

I've never been sure of that myself. I personally run a Killkannon battlewagon all the time. I'll take that before taking a transport for my Meganobz, even. Fill it with a KFF Big Mek and 3 KMB Meks- though I give it 4 Rokkits and a Kannon instead of the 4 Big Shootas. Makes it more expensive, but also means I can fire off a salvo of 8 Strength 8 shots a turn, and/or have (especially with Grots) 4 or 5 chances to repair Hull Points and such.

As long as the Wagon doesn't get splattered in the first turn, it essentially doesn't die, and does a ton of damage.


One of my friends I face off against loves Sternguard Drop Pods. He'll target the Wagon first turn- if he kills it, well, he's killed it. If not, AP3 Pie Plate on his nicely clustered unit.

Oh, right, and I wasnt' even counting that it's a transport. Firstly, note how few AV14 transports there are. Secondly, notice how cheap that battlewagon with a killcannon is.
Thirdly, we're talking about something that has the same price, durability, and killing power as a leman russ... except that it can deliver 5 MANZ and a mega-armored warboss into stuff. That's huge.

And the best part is, with a single upgrade, they don't even need to get out of the transport to attack stuff in close combat.

Except it's not as durable Ailaros, and it's killing power is nowhere near that of a basic leman russ. The kill cannon has 1/3rd the range of the battlecannon, has one less strength, and ends up costing 10pts more base than the leman russ if you add no upgrades whatsoever. Then you realize it's open topped, and that its side armor is only 12. 1 more hp doesn't make up the fact that a lascannon or plasma gun has a 50-50 chance of blowing it up with a pen.

Then it cuts down on transport capacity, disqualifies it from being taken as a dedicated transport for nobz, and makes it want to stay relatively slow all game.

To be honest, I can't see how anyone would want it ocer a leman russ if firepower is your goal. If the kill kannon was 25pts cheaper or so i could see taking it, but right now it just feels like a waste of potential.

 Ailaros wrote:

Murrdox wrote:The Kill-Kannon is so worthless on the Battlewagon

Will somebody please explain this?

There are a couple huge differences between the Battle Cannon and the Kill Kannon which make the Battle Cannon superior to the Ork version, and much more worth the points than the Ork version is.

- The Battle Cannon has a 72" range. The KillKannon is only 24". If the KillKannon had the range on it, you'd see it used much more often, but the range on the gun means that your opponents can simply get out of its way. You're not going to be able to use the KillKannon to devastate a static gun line army such as the Tau, because you're going to have to spend at least the first turn moving forward.

- There is a huge difference between the S7 of the KillKannon and S8 of the Battle Cannon. First, S8 means you can Instant Death everything that is T4, which is quite a lot. This is a huge advantage. No Feel No Pain saves, and multi-wound models die. S7 just doesn't do that for you. Also, S8 means you're MUCH more suited for killing vehicles with the Ordinance special rule. You have a very good chance of glancing or penetrating AV12 armor. No one goes vehicle hunting with a KillKannon, even against a Rhino you only have a roughly 50% chance of getting a penetrating hit. (taking into account the re-roll the Ordinance rule gets you)

- Then you have the improved Ballistic Skill of the Imperial Guard, which makes it more likely you are going to hit your target than the Orks.

So when you break it down the Imperial Guard is definitely getting a lot more use out of those 170 points for the Leman Russ than the Orks are for the Battlewagon.

If the KillKannon only cost 40-50 points maybe it'd be worth taking more often. I'm definitely not going to say it doesn't have its uses, I've used it before. But I can say that rarely have I had a Battlewagon with a KillKannon that has earned its points back. The Boom Gun, for example, is S8 AP3 and 36" range. Contrary to the KillKannon, you DO see this being used fairly regularly in Ork lists, even though it's more expensive than the KillKannon, and mounted on a crappier vehicle! Of course a Boom Wagon is only 120 points even with the 'Ard Case upgrade, so that probably has something to do with it as well.

Like I posted above though, I'm curious about how a KillKannon works in practice on a Mega Dread. It might have better synergy on a walker than on a Battlewagon.

 virx67 wrote:
Well, I'm thinking of using them mainly as a support unit in my lists. Probably just one unit of 5 with the biker boss. Then I'd see if I wanted another or wanted to expand the squad.


Is this the usual layout for Nob Bikers: PK, BP + PK, 1 BP, 1 BC, Painboy, all cyborks?

I normally run A biker boss and 5 bikers. My loadout is something like this

WB:
Klaw, cybork, Attack squig, bike

Nobs:
PK x2, painboy, all cybork, bikes, waaaagh banner, bp.


I should throw in big choppas but I usually forget.

Usually I play 6 Nob Bikerz for 410 points. Cybork bodies for all, 2x PK, 2x BC, 1x Waagh Banner, 1 BP and of course the Painboy.
Just make sure you can avoid fire templates. Even with FNP rule flamers are effective against bikers!

Murrdox wrote:
so what is the point of even giving the Mega Dread Big Shootas that it is never going to use?

Well, you do have extra weapons to deal with multiple "Weapon Destroyed" results that could immobilize your walker.

Murrdox wrote:
There are a couple huge differences between the Battle Cannon and the Kill Kannon which make the Battle Cannon superior to the Ork version, and much more worth the points than the Ork version is.

Agreed. Although in smaller games it can be a winner.

 virx67 wrote:
How well do nob bikers work now? Are they still good, or are MANZ in a battlewagon better?

'

i've been running both, and personally my Manz have been doing INSANELY WELL, they just won me a tournament last weekend

I'll say that MANz are as good as Biker Nobz the day MANz aren't effing 25 dollars a pop.

Oh come on, the difference between battlewagons and russes is tiny here. Yes, a russ is a LITTLE BIT better at hitting stuff. Yes, it is a LITTLE BIT cheaper than a russ. Yes, it is a LITTLE BIT more likely to glance a vehicle to shave an HP off it.

Yes, the absolute range of the weapon is shorter, but the relative range is sufficient. Remember, that LRBT is likely hanging out in the DZ while the BW is rushing forwards. The effective range of 36" of the killcannon is plenty sufficient here.

Killing power, as mentioned is nearly a draw. Basically everything is wounded on 2+s regardless, and both tanks are likely to glance whatever they shoot at (and neither are that likely to wreck). Yes, it doesn't ignore FNP, but FNP is only 5+ now, and I'm wracking my brain to come up with T4 units that would both care about ID and don't have a 2+ save, an invul save, or eternal warrior.

As for open-topped, it's an asset, not a liability. Yes, you're a bit more likely to be wrecked by stuff, but against everything else, it comes with 4HP. It's 1/3rd MORE durable.

Meanwhile, open-topped means that you can shove the thing with 12 lootas, ALL OF WHICH CAN SHOOT out of an infinite-sized chimera hatch. That's right, your lootas are now AV14.

And, come on, it's a TRANSPORT. If you had the option to take an upgrade that allowed your leman russ the ability to transport as many models as a chimera, you would take it in a heartbeat. For orks, you get it for FREE. And it's in a codex where you can take terminators. This is so much better than what a russ can offer, i'm hyperventilating just thinking about it.

What we're talking about here is a unit that has a few tiny drawbacks and two huge benefits. For the same price. The ork players don't like their killcannon BWs as much as guard players like their russes, then they're just bonkers.

All I need to know about the killkannon is that it's range is 24".
That alone makes it a no purchase.
With all my opponents shooting better than me, and sitting in the back corner of the table, 24" is just not cutting it.
I'll spend the points on more Lootas.

How is it moving 12" and shooting the kill kannon? I thought moving 12" forced you to snap fire, something the kill kannon can't do.

That would make it a really crappy Demolisher as you would only be able to move 6-7" and fire the kannon.

 matphat wrote:
All I need to know about the killkannon is that it's range is 24".
That alone makes it a no purchase.
With all my opponents shooting better than me, and sitting in the back corner of the table, 24" is just not cutting it.
I'll spend the points on more Lootas.

I coulda sworn that the KillKannon has a 36" range, even without moving...

 Ailaros wrote:
Oh come on, the difference between battlewagons and russes is tiny here. Yes, a russ is a LITTLE BIT better at hitting stuff. Yes, it is a LITTLE BIT cheaper than a russ. Yes, it is a LITTLE BIT more likely to glance a vehicle to shave an HP off it.

A little bit + a little bit + a little bit = a lot.

 Ailaros wrote:
I'm wracking my brain to come up with T4 units that would both care about ID and don't have a 2+ save, an invul save, or eternal warrior.

The entire Blood Angel army ? The new Noise Marines with Icon of Excess ? Trust me, that 5+ Feel No Pain makes ME feel the pain everytime my opponent rolls a 5 or 6. I've brought 2 Killkanons against Blood Angels 3 weeks ago, and they did basically nothing the whole game (in fact, I've run several Killkanons for quite a long time, and they're just worthless. My boomwagons do a better job, are less expensive and surprinsingly, die less often... like it or not, there is a *huge* difference between a 36" gun, and a 24" one).

 Ailaros wrote:
What we're talking about here is a unit that has a few tiny drawbacks and two huge benefits. For the same price. The ork players don't like their killcannon BWs as much as guard players like their russes, then they're just bonkers.

I guess I must be "bonkers" then. Oh btw, I don't know a single Guard player that considers LRBT to be actually "good". Most just run several Manticores / Basilisks, and keep their Russes for fun games or when they're bored with their WAAC lists. Just sayin'...

i've been running both, and personally my Manz have been doing INSANELY WELL, they just won me a tournament last weekend

What was your list ?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
How about boarding planks ?

In the description it says "as if the Ork were disembarked and charging" ... in the FAQ it says that a Walker can't attack back.
So, can the Ork be shot by Overwatch, even from a walker ?


And how many planks can you put on a battlewagon ?
Can you pay for more than one plank so more than one ork can attack that way ?
If you pay only for one plank, can you put 2 on the battlewagon, like it is on the trukk ?

You can't have more than one Boarding Plank upgrade. Also, your model can't be the target of an overwatch because there is no assault move, you just happen to have free CC attacks.
That makes me remember I asked something about it on this very topic earlier.

=> If your ork vehicle comes from reserve, can you still use the boarding plank on the turn the vehicle arrived? <=

I mean, can you people see the benefit? A trukk comes from reserve, you directly move towards an enemy vehicle, and your PK Nob does the job.
I can't see any reason why it wouldn't be allowed since there is no "assault" per se, it's just CC attacks thanks to a vehicle upgrade.

Murrdox wrote:
I've thought about doing this, but haven't tried it out yet. What are your thoughts on how to arm Mega Dreads? The Kill-Kannon is so worthless on the Battlewagon, does it work better on a Mega-Dread? The default loadout on a Mega Dread at least makes SLIGHTLY more sense this edition. Last edition it was just stupid. Mega Dread comes with a Kill Kannon and two Big Shootas. Well, that's great except that if you fire an Ordinance Weapon, you can't fire any other weapons. Of course you're going to fire the Kill-Kannon, so what is the point of even giving the Mega Dread Big Shootas that it is never going to use? Now in 6th edition this is somewhat better in that at least the Big Shootas can fire Snap Shots, which is I suppose better than nothing.

Do you run it in the default configuration, or is there a better configuration you've found? Personally I'd be tempted to run the default configuration and add another Big Shoota, OR I'd replace the Kill Kannon with another Rippa Klaw, and give it a Mega-Charga and Grot Riggers.

I almost use the default config. The killkannon is actually quite awesome on megadreads, as it's "free", and you're moving straight at the enemies anyway. Trading it for a rippa klaw adds only a single attack, and the supa-skorcha really isn't that much better (personal preference though). However, I always trade away the shootaz for skorchas, in 5th if gave you the option to torch some stuff out of cover, in 6th it allows you to fire a mean overwatch at something that's trying to tarpit you. Grot riggers are pretty much a must, you don't want to have your 175 point bad ass walker sitting somewhere immobilized. I'm no longer taking the supa-charger though. It's expensive, and AV13 walkers usually don't really care a lot about not making a charge, so I simply start gambling as soon as I'm within 12". I'd rather save 30 points on two mega-dreads and upgrade the third one to a meka dread.

 Ailaros wrote:
Oh come on, the difference between battlewagons and russes is tiny here. Yes, a russ is a LITTLE BIT better at hitting stuff. Yes, it is a LITTLE BIT cheaper than a russ. Yes, it is a LITTLE BIT more likely to glance a vehicle to shave an HP off it.

And a lot more likely to penetrate the vehicle and outright destroy or immobilize it. Not to mention that you could get four rokkits and a kannon for 10 points less which are actually quite good at destroying vehicles. Or for just 20 points you get the best anti-tank weapon in our codex - which prevents you from shooting the killkannon whenever you use it.

Yes, the absolute range of the weapon is shorter, but the relative range is sufficient. Remember, that LRBT is likely hanging out in the DZ while the BW is rushing forwards. The effective range of 36" of the killcannon is plenty sufficient here.

You mean 30" while exposing side armor and maybe rear amor and being in danger of getting assaulted by some rag-tag IoM soldiers with krak grenades? Or shot by meltas guns? While you are snap-firing all your other weapons? While the leman russ is staying far out of harms way and can shoot everything at his full BS3?

Killing power, as mentioned is nearly a draw. Basically everything is wounded on 2+s regardless, and both tanks are likely to glance whatever they shoot at (and neither are that likely to wreck). Yes, it doesn't ignore FNP, but FNP is only 5+ now, and I'm wracking my brain to come up with T4 units that would both care about ID and don't have a 2+ save, an invul save, or eternal warrior.

Blood Angels, Chaos Space Marines, Biovores, the Doom of Malan'tai, Raveners, Tyranid Warriors/Shrikes, Venomtropes, Zoantropes, Nobz, Wracks, Reavers, Crisis Suits, all Characters in power armor, and last, but not least, any model with T6 or higher disagree on S7 being the same as S8. Oh, and instant death is still good against models with 2+ or invul saves.

As for open-topped, it's an asset, not a liability. Yes, you're a bit more likely to be wrecked by stuff, but against everything else, it comes with 4HP. It's 1/3rd MORE durable.

Except that, unlike your leman russ, which is hugging the board edge, people are not going to shoot AV14, but your weaker side armor with a lascannon, exploding the entire vehicle about 25% of the time. I have lost only a fraction of my battlewagons to loss of hull points in 6th. Almost all of them simply explode with most of their HP left.

Meanwhile, open-topped means that you can shove the thing with 12 lootas, ALL OF WHICH CAN SHOOT out of an infinite-sized chimera hatch. That's right, your lootas are now AV14.

As well as BS1 and half of them are dead and the other half pinned once someone shoots as much as an autocannon into the exposed side armor. You know, because you have to be in the middle of the board with your low-ranged killkannon, while lootaz might as well be safely in your deployment zone.

And, come on, it's a TRANSPORT. If you had the option to take an upgrade that allowed your leman russ the ability to transport as many models as a chimera, you would take it in a heartbeat. For orks, you get it for FREE.

Think about that again. We need twice as much space in our transports to archive what other armies would. How about geting a transport capacity of five in your leman russ? That probably doesn't sound as awesome anymore.

And it's in a codex where you can take terminators. This is so much better than what a russ can offer, i'm hyperventilating just thinking about it.

Yeah, right. Terminators. MANz are about as much terminators as ogryns are. Why aren't you fielding chimeras full of ogryins?

What we're talking about here is a unit that has a few tiny drawbacks and two huge benefits. For the same price. The ork players don't like their killcannon BWs as much as guard players like their russes, then they're just bonkers.

You have never played a single game using those models you're advertising. Borrow models, field three killkannons with whatever you think is awesome inside your "better leman russes" and tell us how it went. You are bonkers for telling ork players that a completely terrible model is awesome just because you want it for your guard army. I'll trade you killkannon battlewagons for leman russ battle tanks any day. Or ogryns.

Pretty much everything has been said on why the killkannon is bad. If it were cheaper, or longer ranged, or stronger, it would be a decent gun.
As it is, it's not. You argument is basically saying that a (single) guardsman is just as good in close combat as an ork boy. It just has one WS less, one attack less and no furious charge. One less strength is 13.5% worse than a leman russ. 24" is 66.6% worse than a leman russ.

The Killkannon is 70pts for a 24inch str7 weapon, thats why it sucks. Its got no range and is REALLY pricey. So its 70 points for anti troop, something we definitely dont need help with, on an already 90pt chassis + upgrades. Gee.....I wonder why it sucks?

 KingCracker wrote:
The Killkannon is 70pts for a 24inch str7 weapon, thats why it sucks. Its got no range and is REALLY pricey. So its 70 points for anti troop, something we definitely dont need help with, on an already 90pt chassis + upgrades. Gee.....I wonder why it sucks?

If it were Str 8 it would be infinitely better for the points, if it had longer range even better! but... well it just plain sucks for it's primary purpose ... a delivery system. But hey, if you know any LRBT's that are comfortable being within 24 inches of the enemy in which to promptly be assaulted and naded please let me know

Forge World 'fixed' the Kill Kannon in Imperial Armour 8 with the introduction of the Supa Kannon.

10 points more but..

S9, 60" range, AP3 , Large Blast, Ordnance.

Thus,

1) it can shoot things a long way away which makes up for the fact Ordnance slows the wagon down
2) It hurts what it hits: no Feel no pain and lots of instakill, and much better odds vs vehicles.

doiwnsides:

1) it still gets out-ranged by a russ
2) the choice of transport is based on the risk of exposure of the weaker side armour.
3) fired by an ork so less likely to be accurate
4) ForgeWorld.. so people may say no to it...

cool looking gun though.. I have two.

Everyone in my area tends to run without FW rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ailaros, maybe you should go run a bunch of them, and then come back with Bat Reps to prove your point. Instead of arguing theory with people who obviously don't believe you, bring the proof.

MechanicusOmnisWrex wrote:
Forge World 'fixed' the Kill Kannon in Imperial Armour 8 with the introduction of the Supa Kannon.

10 points more but..

S9, 60" range, AP3 , Large Blast, Ordnance.

The Orks actually have a fun progression going on with our "Kannons". Basically each gun has +1 S and more range.

Kill Kannon - S7 AP3 Large Blast Ordinance 24"
Boom Gun - S8 AP3 Large Blast Ordinance 36"
SupaKannon - S9 AP3 Large Blast Ordinance 60"

I agree that the SupaKannon is great, and if the Kill Kannon had the SupaKannon's stats, we'd see it used more often. I'd reduce the cost of Kill Kannon by 25 points, and allow a SupaKannon for about the same price as the Kill Kannon is now.

The Boom Gun is much improved in 6th Edition, but unfortunately it's still strapped to an AV11 vehicle that takes up a Heavy Support slot just for one of them and doesn't work 1/6 of the time.

A battlecannon is not a lot better at destroying vehicles. Against AV12, a hit is causing a penetrating hit half the time. The killcannon does this about a third of the time. Both have crummy Ap, so it's only wrecking 1/6th of the time. Neither are very likely to blow up a vehicle here.

Yes, a battlewagon does need to get closer, but a 30" threat range still reaches into your opponent's DZ turn 1. I mean, if this was such a big deal, no one would ever field demolishers or vindicators. Plus, you're not just getting closer for the sake of getting closer, you're getting closer to transport MANZ or scoring units on to objectives.

Yes, I've never played with them, but we don't need to have a tiny anecdotal data set to be able to reason this out. The mindless hate against this unit just doesn't make sense. All I'm seeing is entrenched views and self-pity. Especially you, Jidmah, you seem to have a seriously negative view on practically everything in the ork codex from these past many pages. Perhaps you need a break from orks to restore your morale.

What everyone should do, after their first post against (or for!) something, but before their second, is play 3 games with the unit in question, in various quantities- Single, Double, and As Many As Possible. One game can be a fluke, two games is unfamiliarity. Three will tell if it's either Bad, Good, Situational or Decent.

Why? What will a tiny anecdotal data set tell us?

Are we not men of reason?

Ailaros, I understand what you're trying to say, but the fact of the matter is that the KillKannon is a lot nicer on paper than it is in reality. Trust me, I've used them several times. They never devastate like you think they would. I can go back and reiterate all the points that Jidmah, I, and others have made, but it'd just be repeating myself.

The KillKannon is an overpriced, underpowered gun that can only be installed on a vehicle that is better meant for transporting units than firing weapons.

Like Jidmah said though, I think the KillKannon has more potential on a Mega Dread. For 175 points you get an AV13 walker with a 5++ save with a KillKannon and a couple of extra weapons tacked on. A walker which can lumber forwards into short range without fear of being assaulted on its rear armor, or taking side hits from lascannons at AV12, and a walker that doesn't have to choose between Deffrolling, dropping off troops, and firing a KillKannon.

 Ailaros wrote:
Especially you, Jidmah, you seem to have a seriously negative view on practically everything in the ork codex from these past many pages. Perhaps you need a break from orks to restore your morale.

That's twice now that you have suggested Jidmah quit playing Orks because you don't like his attitude. Whereas Jidmah has been nothing but rational and has explained in detail all his opinions without responding in kind. Maybe you should stop? It's rude. It gets the discussion no where. It makes you appear juvenile.

Truth of the matter is, he's been a much more constructive contributor to this thread than you, and maybe, instead of trying to rationalize the unit to everyone and getting mad when they don't agree, you could drop it, go play the game you want to play, and let everyone else play the game they want to play.

 Ailaros wrote:
I mean, if this was such a big deal, no one would ever field demolishers or vindicators.

Except that a Demolisher canon is S10 AP2...... If the Killkanon was S10 AP2, I *really* wouldn't care about its pitiful range.

 Ailaros wrote:
Plus, you're not just getting closer for the sake of getting closer, you're getting closer to transport MANZ or scoring units on to objectives

Putting a Killkanon on a Wagon that is transporting MANZ into combat is probably the biggest "mistake" anyone can do with this codex.

You should really try to PLAY Orks before you come to talk about them and insult those who actually have an experience with them.

alright guys lets chill out about this. Obviously we've reached an impass. We've argued this to death. Please, let's quit muckin about before this thread gets locked and just agree to disagree.

That would be nice... Please people, I'd like an answer to a question I asked a month ago.

If your ork vehicle comes from reserve, can you use a boarding plank to make CC attacks on the turn the vehicle arrived?

I'd love to hear you guys about this.

 Bonzofever wrote:
That would be nice... Please people, I'd like an answer to a question I asked a month ago.

If your ork vehicle comes from reserve, can you use a boarding plank to make CC attacks on the turn the vehicle arrived?

I'd love to hear you guys about this.

Yes, It is not an "assault" you are just using a upgrade to make a CC attack against a vehicle.

sirlynchmob wrote:

 Bonzofever wrote:
That would be nice... Please people, I'd like an answer to a question I asked a month ago.

If your ork vehicle comes from reserve, can you use a boarding plank to make CC attacks on the turn the vehicle arrived?

I'd love to hear you guys about this.

Yes, It is not an "assault" you are just using a upgrade to make a CC attack against a vehicle.

Actually I believe the boarding plank does say the attack is an assault, but you dont have to leave the vehicle, to charge and assault if a vehicle is within 2". So, I play- if your not in a situation to charge and assault a vehicle normally, you can't use boarding plank to assault a vehicle from within an ork vehicle. Since you can't charge when you come in from reserves, you can't use boarding plank. I wish/hope im wrong.

Nym wrote:Except that a Demolisher canon is S10 AP2...... If the Killkanon was S10 AP2, I *really* wouldn't care about its pitiful range.

And my point is that it's not the range that you care about, it's the S and Ap. There shouldn't be a confusion between range and the rest of the statline. Just having lower strength doesn't make the range any shorter.

matphat wrote:That's twice now that you have suggested Jidmah quit playing Orks because you don't like his attitude.

I'm not alone in this, I mean...

 KingCracker wrote:
Jidmah, I think youre loosing your mind lately, that or the changes in 6th have pissed you off so badly that you are blinded. Im sorry man, Whats your deal lately?

You can be both reasonable and hopelessly depressed about something at the same time. I mean, we're talking about someone who has said in the past couple of days that they don't like kanz, and doesn't like buggies, and doesn't like manz, and doesn't like dreds, and doesn't artillery, and doesn't like slugga boyz, and doesn't like ammo runts, and doesn't killcannon BWs.

... and that snap firing lootas are worthless, and orks can't be an assaulty army, and that green tide is dead, and that lists based around trukks are dead.

Or, to put it in his own words:

 Jidmah wrote:
Many people aren't that fond of the new dakka-orks, and even I find myself preferring doing something else over playing 40k right now. Winning games without a single assault feels wrong - and boring.

A person can be as articulate as they want, but if they're not being helpful, then what's the point?

You can make a very reasoned argument for why everything but lootaz aren't worth taking, and how orks suck and you can't do what you want with them anymore, but what does that really get the ork community? How does it help people use the units they want to use, or have fun playing orks? A bad attitude over all isn't a good thing, and it has the tendency to drag others down with it. I mean, just look at the dakka tau community...

Actually I believe the boarding plank does say the attack is an assault, but you dont have to leave the vehicle, to charge and assault if a vehicle is within 2". So, I play- if your not in a situation to charge and assault a vehicle normally, you can't use boarding plank to assault a vehicle from within an ork vehicle. Since you can't charge when you come in from reserves, you can't use boarding plank. I wish/hope im wrong.

As I mentioned earlier, it says in the boarding plank : "as if the Ork were disembarked and charging" ... and since you can't assault when coming from reserve, I think you cannot use the plank.

That's sad ...

 valminder wrote:

Actually I believe the boarding plank does say the attack is an assault, but you dont have to leave the vehicle, to charge and assault if a vehicle is within 2". So, I play- if your not in a situation to charge and assault a vehicle normally, you can't use boarding plank to assault a vehicle from within an ork vehicle. Since you can't charge when you come in from reserves, you can't use boarding plank. I wish/hope im wrong.

As I mentioned earlier, it says in the boarding plank : "as if the Ork were disembarked and charging" ... and since you can't assault when coming from reserve, I think you cannot use the plank.

That's sad ...

Yeah, I can even see that image of a orc trukk flying into the battle, with a PK armed nob hanging over the side. "Little closer Lads!" <KABOOM> Waaaagh! heh

 Ailaros wrote:

Nym wrote:Except that a Demolisher canon is S10 AP2...... If the Killkanon was S10 AP2, I *really* wouldn't care about its pitiful range.

And my point is that it's not the range that you care about, it's the S and Ap. There shouldn't be a confusion between range and the rest of the statline. Just having lower strength doesn't make the range any shorter.

matphat wrote:That's twice now that you have suggested Jidmah quit playing Orks because you don't like his attitude.

I'm not alone in this, I mean...

 KingCracker wrote:
Jidmah, I think youre loosing your mind lately, that or the changes in 6th have pissed you off so badly that you are blinded. Im sorry man, Whats your deal lately?

You can be both reasonable and hopelessly depressed about something at the same time. I mean, we're talking about someone who has said in the past couple of days that they don't like kanz, and doesn't like buggies, and doesn't like manz, and doesn't like dreds, and doesn't artillery, and doesn't like slugga boyz, and doesn't like ammo runts, and doesn't killcannon BWs.

... and that snap firing lootas are worthless, and orks can't be an assaulty army, and that green tide is dead, and that lists based around trukks are dead.

Or, to put it in his own words:

 Jidmah wrote:
Many people aren't that fond of the new dakka-orks, and even I find myself preferring doing something else over playing 40k right now. Winning games without a single assault feels wrong - and boring.

A person can be as articulate as they want, but if they're not being helpful, then what's the point?

You can make a very reasoned argument for why everything but lootaz aren't worth taking, and how orks suck and you can't do what you want with them anymore, but what does that really get the ork community? How does it help people use the units they want to use, or have fun playing orks? A bad attitude over all isn't a good thing, and it has the tendency to drag others down with it. I mean, just look at the dakka tau community...

Oh, awsome, two posts of bashing me without me answering in between? I'm honored.
Bonus points for using KC's quote completely out of context.

I'll just quote something for truth:

 Nym wrote:
You should really try to PLAY Orks before you come to talk about them and insult those who actually have an experience with them.

I might not be playing orks over a decade like some people here, but I have a couple of hundred games under my belt, add the other peoples disagreeing with you and you get a couple of thousand games against your one anecdotal game where killkannons worked.

Is someone who...
1) ... thinks 10 Ork boyz in a trukk is a good idea
2) ... does not know that KFF and combi-skorchas are mutually exclusive on a big mek
3) ... does not know that a battlewagon can't move 12" and shoot a blast weapon
4) ... completely ignores the issue of side-armor on battlewagons
5) ... completely ignores the issue of exploding vehicles killing half the ork passengers
6) ... picks red paint over a reinforced rams on trukks
really fit to tell more experienced players how to play their army? Those are not beginner's errors. Every single one of those screams about how you never played a serious game using an ork army.

Not to mention that, just on the 25th of September, you explicitly wrote that you are not an ork player. How much experience could you have gotten within one month?

I assure you that every single one of my points has come from me putting the exact models I'm talking about on the table, not once but five, ten or twenty times, and seeing how they do. I really wanted Kanz to work in 6th. I lost a lot of games when trying to make them work. They don't. Same for killkannons. I tried to make them work - they look awesome. But they suck. Hard. Even with perfect hits on power armored marine units they don't impress. They fail to kill units of pink horrors. They fail to kill necron warriors. They fail to kill plague marines. The fail to kill imperial guardsmen diving for cover. What use as a 150 point model(before upgrades) if it can't even blast one troops choice off an objective? Do you know what does work? Fielding a looted wagon with a boom gun. Not "Awesome I absolutely have to field this!"-works. But it does what you'd expect a vehicle for 105 would do. The boom gun is what a killkannon should have been. Warbikers work. Warpheads don't work. Tank bustaz work. Zzap gunz don't work. Skorcha bommers work. Bliza bommers don't work. SAGs work. You learn this by putting the models on the table, not by looking at their stats. If I got an ork boy everytime someone wrote "the SAG is very random", I could provide everyone I know with an ork army. In practice the SAG isn't random. It's pretty damn reliable mass-destruction weapon against infantry. The only random part is that it will spectacularly end itself in about one out of three games.
If you'd even pay some attention to what I'm posting, you'll find that I don't contribute to things I have no experience with. I don't add to tactics about kommandoz, because I don't own any, and haven't felt the need to borrow them for a game of sixth. I don't contribute to threads on beating dark eldar, because I have only every played dark eldar twice. Part of wisdom is knowing when to shut up.

Oh, and an argument is not "mindless", just because you can't find a single counter-point to my arguments. You resorting to personal attacks is also pretty good indicator of you having absolutely no idea what you are talking about.
I actually went back to what I disagreed with you on in the past, and almost every time you popped up with some random idea which is the complete opposite of what all ork players agree on about what is good, you get talked down by 5-10 players, and still refuse to see the point.
Best of: Choppas are better than shootas, cybork is useless on nob bikers, rokkits on boyz are better than lootaz.

I really appreciate you adding opinions, asking question about long-established standards and pointing out rules issues. But you're still not an ork player. Orks work completely different from most armies, applying the logic of another army to them doesn't work, but you are doing exactly that all the time. So please, stop posting advice based on mind games, just to get pissed about people who actually put green-skinned models on 48"x72" tables who disagree with you. We actually point new players to this thread to find tactics. If some new player finds your "Guys, I found the holy grail right in front of your eyes!"-ideas here and actually believe them, they will buy crappy models, lose games and not have fun. All because some IG player is playing ork veteran.
When someone comes to this forum and tells people that he wants to play killkannons the right thing to do is not cooking up some magic lists which won't work anyways, but telling that person that killkannons are terrible and not waste the turret sprue on building it instead of a kannon. People can then decide whether they still want to run a terrible model on purpose.

I'll start taking your advice about orks if you take mine about imperial guard. I think banewolves are awesome and should be played in every list instead of vendettas. In squadrons of three. I know orks would do so if they had the option. Not to mention that they should definitely be painted red.


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 Bonzofever wrote:
That would be nice... Please people, I'd like an answer to a question I asked a month ago.

If your ork vehicle comes from reserve, can you use a boarding plank to make CC attacks on the turn the vehicle arrived?

I'd love to hear you guys about this.

Sure, why not? Keep in mind that you cannot use the boarding plank if you moved more than 12" though, so the range is limited.

Phydox wrote:

 valminder wrote:

Actually I believe the boarding plank does say the attack is an assault, but you dont have to leave the vehicle, to charge and assault if a vehicle is within 2". So, I play- if your not in a situation to charge and assault a vehicle normally, you can't use boarding plank to assault a vehicle from within an ork vehicle. Since you can't charge when you come in from reserves, you can't use boarding plank. I wish/hope im wrong.

As I mentioned earlier, it says in the boarding plank : "as if the Ork were disembarked and charging" ... and since you can't assault when coming from reserve, I think you cannot use the plank.

That's sad ...

Yeah, I can even see that image of a orc trukk flying into the battle, with a PK armed nob hanging over the side. "Little closer Lads!" <KABOOM> Waaaagh! heh

Thanks for your answers about boardin' plank guys It seems people are a tad confused about whether it's possible or not. But that sure sounds nice!
"as if the Ork were disembarked and charging" This is a valid point. Too bad the FAQ does no clarify that scenario.

As far as I'm concerned, "as if" doesn't mean "counting as", hence I tend to agree with both Jidmah and sirlynchmob.

On smaller boards this could come in handy. In Apocalypse games, it would be lethal.

 Ailaros wrote:

Nym wrote:Except that a Demolisher canon is S10 AP2...... If the Killkanon was S10 AP2, I *really* wouldn't care about its pitiful range.

And my point is that it's not the range that you care about, it's the S and Ap. There shouldn't be a confusion between range and the rest of the statline. Just having lower strength doesn't make the range any shorter.

Except that S and Ap are nothing without range. Try to play a game with IG where your opponrnt starts 6 inches away from you while you field all the high S weapons on your codex and then let us know hot it went.

 Jidmah wrote:
Many people aren't that fond of the new dakka-orks, and even I find myself preferring doing something else over playing 40k right now. Winning games without a single assault feels wrong - and boring.

A person can be as articulate as they want, but if they're not being helpful, then what's the point?

You can make a very reasoned argument for why everything but lootaz aren't worth taking, and how orks suck and you can't do what you want with them anymore, but what does that really get the ork community? How does it help people use the units they want to use, or have fun playing orks? A bad attitude over all isn't a good thing, and it has the tendency to drag others down with it. I mean, just look at the dakka tau community...

Jidmah is one of the most helpful people on this thread and no one forces to listen to him. Personal attacks however are not welcome by anyone. Let's calm down and keep the party going

OK Lads, lets cool our tongues a bit and take a step back. No need to have months of excellent tactical discussion get locked with a dash of banhammers because of killkannons. MODs dont like being bothered over stupid things like this.



Ailaros - If you think they are that badass, congrats on thinking outside the box. Use them, spam them even, youll soon find out that those points are FAR better spent somewhere else. I personally love FlashGitz, and no one will be able to talk me out of that decision either, but when the general consensus says that a unit sucks or points better spent elsewhere, they are usually right. So lets stop the bitching and move on to more practical discussions like how to kick the asses of our enemies.














On that note, my faith in rokkit buggies is being restored once more. Granted, they arnt NEARLY as badass as they were in 5th, but they are still a nice, cheap reliable way to spam TL rokkits. Our group is doing a campaign that takes place on a poor poor Imperial world, and my boyz are the main antagonists. So we will have a few LARGE battles that require me taking hold of entire cities, so our matches there will hit 2K+ and we all know what that means..... DOUBLE FOC!!!! So in one of my thoughts, I can take 4 or 5 x3 units of rokkit buggies in my build. 12 TL rokkit buggies! That sounds awesome, specially when you realize thats just over 400 to 500 points. Ideas? Thoughts?

I have a question about manz. Which ones should I buy the rocket, flamer or shoota. Anyone know why their sold individually instead of squads like termi's

Because GW likes to make a crap load of money off good units. Mark my words, in our next dex, MANz are going to be fething gold.



And to answer your question, since wound allocation is gone, take skorchas. Why you ask? Because you can then WoD anything that assaults your MANz. OR if they arnt assaulted or it doesnt look like they are getting jumped on, you can burn the pooh out of the unit your about to charge.


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Thats Wall of Death. BTW

 KingCracker wrote:
And to answer your question, since wound allocation is gone, take skorchas. Why you ask? Because you can then WoD anything that assaults your MANz. OR if they arnt assaulted or it doesnt look like they are getting jumped on, you can burn the pooh out of the unit your about to charge.

Yes, go for kombi-skorchas with your MANz, they are far more useful than kombi-RL. So far I've NEVER (mark my word) hit something with a one-shot RL.

 KingCracker wrote:
On that note, my faith in rokkit buggies is being restored once more. Granted, they arnt NEARLY as badass as they were in 5th, but they are still a nice, cheap reliable way to spam TL rokkits. Our group is doing a campaign that takes place on a poor poor Imperial world, and my boyz are the main antagonists. So we will have a few LARGE battles that require me taking hold of entire cities, so our matches there will hit 2K+ and we all know what that means..... DOUBLE FOC!!!! So in one of my thoughts, I can take 4 or 5 x3 units of rokkit buggies in my build. 12 TL rokkit buggies! That sounds awesome, specially when you realize thats just over 400 to 500 points. Ideas? Thoughts?

Double FOC sounds great but most of the time it's only good for additional HQ and Heavy Support slots, or being able to play a couple flyers without ruining your Fast Attack slots
However, Buggy spam is a cool way to take advantage of this opportunity, though they might die pretty fast when it comes to 2K+ games. The bright side: block LoS and shoooot!
It's easy to find gorkamorka trukks and you can customize them with rokkits from the Dakkajet kit, so money-wise this is a good investment, too.