waaaaghboss wrote:How are warbuggies? I have 5 of the old trukks that I might convert into buggies to go with my new shooty ork army.
I've always ran 3 buggies in my speed freek lists, and had great success with them. However, I'm not sure how hullpoints are going to impact them yet.
Just be careful that you don't build them the same size as trukks, or people might complain about size. You may also find them harder to get though terrain with such a long wheel base.
I'd suggest chopping them down a little.
The old Trukks (pre the current trukk kit) are about warbuggy sized. There's no real need to chop them down. A lot of us old fogies converted out old assault sleds into buggies when the new trukk (which is huge by comparison) came along.
In the bastion entry in the BRB it says it has 4x Heavy Bolters (TYPICALLY on each facing) - Does this mean it can be modelled on one facing, as its not a must its just typical that they do and sometimes might not!?
Assuming you can have 4 heavy bolters on one facing, i think a squad of gretchin inside the bastion would work quite well 4x Quad Gun shots at T/L BS3
12x Heavy Bolter Shots at BS3
Grot win?? Thoughts please! --- Just read Fortification rules and it uses an Icarus Lascannon on the roof as an EMPLACED WEAPON, meaning squad inside can fire that without being exposed on the roof
Also nice place to dump an objective
Altering models for your advantage is not against the rules, but still a dick move. Imagine your opponent glueing both sponsons of a landraider/leman russ/predator to the same side of the vehicle to get better fire angles, you wouldn't let that fly, would you?
kowbasher wrote:After 4 games of trying to run Kan Walls (my favorate list from 5th) I've concluded that it just doesn't work anymore. The 5+ save just isn't enough to save Kanz whatsoever with only 2 HP each. Perhaps if they had 3 a piece it would still work, but right now I'm moving into running a Green Tide list myself.
I've had 3 games running 2x30 mobs of Shootas, and 4x20 mobs of Sluggs (damn AOBR boyz are everywhere), and I can say that I am enjoying the list alot. Sure it's a pain to move that much infantry, but I'm getting quicker at the set-up and the movement phase each game.
Sluggas are perhaps the weakest point of the core right now. I basically run them screaming at the opponent and hope he panics and shoots them instead of the shootas, lootas, or dakkajets. What typically happens though is I keep failing damn 6-7" charges with them all the time! Overwatch does just enough to shave of 2-3 boyz in which I loose 1-2" and can't seem to ever roll above 5-6. Very frustrating, considering it's almost 2 shooting phases for the enemy to finish off the sluggas.
Shoota boyz are worth their weight in gold like it has been mentioned. It is really easy to move up to around 18" to get your full salvo of shots then just sit and wait for your opponent to attempt a charge next turn against them, fail, and get 2 rounds of shooting yourself. Kinda silly after awhile how easy it is.
Right now I'm testing what is the best types of supporting units for the tide and I'm finding that Lootas and Dakkajets are brilliantly amazing at clearing a path for the boyz and destroying units holding objectives on the opponent's side of the board. Three dakkajets screaming in on turn 2 or 3 with a Waagh! is absolutely devistating and I've destroyed complete squads of Havocs and Longfangs with barely any effort. Lootas are always good.
I think I'll be trimming of a squad or two of Sluggas and trying out Big Guns or the Gretchin + Aegis Defense Line for even more dakka. Though it does pain me a bit to say that assualt Ork lists don't seem to work anymore...just overwhealm your opponent with numbers and more dakka, then assualt to wipe out the squad.
Did you use power klaws or big choppa in the nob? and eavy armor in the lead nob? Also rokkit or big shoota in the mobs?
Big Shoots x 3 for the Shoota mobs and they worked real well. Nothing on the Slugga mobs beacuse I need them to either Run or Assault. Never a fan of rokkits in the mobs...slightly too expensive for something that tends to miss too often.
Out of habit I've kept the Nobz with PKs, but to be honest I'm finding it rarer and rarer that I can actually use them! With challenges anyone with AP4 or greater and higher iniative than 2 has a great chance to kill my nob with no effort, and I don't even get to hit back. I actually find my nob declining the challenge and sitting akwardly in the middle of the fight, twiddling his thumbs as I hope the pure numbers of the boyz is enough to force enough saves. With the lack of the PK and lack of Fearless wounds, I find combats are not really as descisive as they used to be, and tend to get dragged out 2-3 rounds. Unless of course the opposing units is way better at CC than me, like Khorne Berzerkers, then I tend to avoid fighting them in CC as long as possible and instead strafing run them with the Dakkajets.
Not sure if Big Choppas are a good answer though. Nobz are Initative 3 if I recall properly (usually see them with PKs!), so against a Marine Sgt. I should be able to get off 3-4 S6-7 attacks before I get kill right? I never use bosspoles on mobs of 30, so the loss the the nob isn't that bad. Heck doing that I might be able to have an inexpensive Demon Weapon absorber for a round as the boyz kill of the marines. Sad state of affairs when I look at my nobz as sacrifical models instead of the killy badasses they used to be.
Anyone running mobs without a nob?
Keep the Nob. Don't stick him in the front, have him more in the middle of the mob, and he can't accept the challenge.
Here's the breakdown of how he can't accept the challenge or be picked out by Precision Strikes:
1. "Challenges are issued at the start of the Fight sub-phase, before any blows are struck." pg. 64. This means this is before the initiative step pile-in moves.
2. "A model is engaged in combat, and must fight if:
- During its initiative step, it is in base contact with one or more enemy models.
- During its initiative step, it is within 2" of a friendly model in base contact with one or more enemy models in the same combat." pg 23.
2. "Characters that cannot fight or strike blows (including those that are not engaged with an enemy model) cannot issue challenges." pg. 64. This means your Nob can't issue a challenge either, because of clause 1.
3. "Characters that cannot fight or strike blows (including those that are not engaged with an enemy model) cannot accept challenges." pg. 64. This means Nobs that are not engaged as per clause 2 cannot accept challenges. Cannot accept challenges != refusing challenges.
4. "Models make their attacks when their Initiative step is reached.... Note that certain situations, abilities and weapons [Emphasis mine] can modify a model's Initiative." pg. 23. This means that a Nob piles in at I1 because of his PK and also attacks at I1 because of the PK.
5. "Wounds from Precision Strikes are allocated against an engaged model (or models) of your choice in the unit he is attacking, rather than following the normal rounds for Wound allocation." pg. 63. This means that a Nob cannot be picked out in combat because he is not engaged as per clause 2.
I find it amazing how not a lot of people are reading the minute details of the rules.
EDIT: Note that of course this really only works in the first round of combat. Once the second round starts, the Nob can of course be challenged or be hit by Precision Strikes since he should be clearly engaged.
kowbasher wrote:
Anyone running mobs without a nob?
I was actually thinking that the extra points could go towards more boyz instead of the Nob.
Haven't tried it yet, but if a Nob w/ PK and BP is 46pts, then that's 7.6 more boyz, and if you are currently running 3 mobs of boyz, then you could add another mob of 23 boyz. That's nothing to sneeze at. You'll just need to re-allocate your PK tank busting duties to some one else. Preferably someone ranged.
kowbasher wrote:After 4 games of trying to run Kan Walls (my favorate list from 5th) I've concluded that it just doesn't work anymore. The 5+ save just isn't enough to save Kanz whatsoever with only 2 HP each. Perhaps if they had 3 a piece it would still work, but right now I'm moving into running a Green Tide list myself.
I've had 3 games running 2x30 mobs of Shootas, and 4x20 mobs of Sluggs (damn AOBR boyz are everywhere), and I can say that I am enjoying the list alot. Sure it's a pain to move that much infantry, but I'm getting quicker at the set-up and the movement phase each game.
Sluggas are perhaps the weakest point of the core right now. I basically run them screaming at the opponent and hope he panics and shoots them instead of the shootas, lootas, or dakkajets. What typically happens though is I keep failing damn 6-7" charges with them all the time! Overwatch does just enough to shave of 2-3 boyz in which I loose 1-2" and can't seem to ever roll above 5-6. Very frustrating, considering it's almost 2 shooting phases for the enemy to finish off the sluggas.
Shoota boyz are worth their weight in gold like it has been mentioned. It is really easy to move up to around 18" to get your full salvo of shots then just sit and wait for your opponent to attempt a charge next turn against them, fail, and get 2 rounds of shooting yourself. Kinda silly after awhile how easy it is.
Right now I'm testing what is the best types of supporting units for the tide and I'm finding that Lootas and Dakkajets are brilliantly amazing at clearing a path for the boyz and destroying units holding objectives on the opponent's side of the board. Three dakkajets screaming in on turn 2 or 3 with a Waagh! is absolutely devistating and I've destroyed complete squads of Havocs and Longfangs with barely any effort. Lootas are always good.
I think I'll be trimming of a squad or two of Sluggas and trying out Big Guns or the Gretchin + Aegis Defense Line for even more dakka. Though it does pain me a bit to say that assualt Ork lists don't seem to work anymore...just overwhealm your opponent with numbers and more dakka, then assualt to wipe out the squad.
Did you use power klaws or big choppa in the nob? and eavy armor in the lead nob? Also rokkit or big shoota in the mobs?
Big Shoots x 3 for the Shoota mobs and they worked real well. Nothing on the Slugga mobs beacuse I need them to either Run or Assault. Never a fan of rokkits in the mobs...slightly too expensive for something that tends to miss too often.
Out of habit I've kept the Nobz with PKs, but to be honest I'm finding it rarer and rarer that I can actually use them! With challenges anyone with AP4 or greater and higher iniative than 2 has a great chance to kill my nob with no effort, and I don't even get to hit back. I actually find my nob declining the challenge and sitting akwardly in the middle of the fight, twiddling his thumbs as I hope the pure numbers of the boyz is enough to force enough saves. With the lack of the PK and lack of Fearless wounds, I find combats are not really as descisive as they used to be, and tend to get dragged out 2-3 rounds. Unless of course the opposing units is way better at CC than me, like Khorne Berzerkers, then I tend to avoid fighting them in CC as long as possible and instead strafing run them with the Dakkajets.
Not sure if Big Choppas are a good answer though. Nobz are Initative 3 if I recall properly (usually see them with PKs!), so against a Marine Sgt. I should be able to get off 3-4 S6-7 attacks before I get kill right? I never use bosspoles on mobs of 30, so the loss the the nob isn't that bad. Heck doing that I might be able to have an inexpensive Demon Weapon absorber for a round as the boyz kill of the marines. Sad state of affairs when I look at my nobz as sacrifical models instead of the killy badasses they used to be.
Anyone running mobs without a nob?
Keep the Nob. Don't stick him in the front, have him more in the middle of the mob, and he can't accept the challenge.
Here's the breakdown of how he can't accept the challenge or be picked out by Precision Strikes:
1. "Challenges are issued at the start of the Fight sub-phase, before any blows are struck." pg. 64. This means this is before the initiative step pile-in moves.
2. "A model is engaged in combat, and must fight if:
- During its initiative step, it is in base contact with one or more enemy models.
- During its initiative step, it is within 2" of a friendly model in base contact with one or more enemy models in the same combat." pg 23.
2. "Characters that cannot fight or strike blows (including those that are not engaged with an enemy model) cannot issue challenges." pg. 64. This means your Nob can't issue a challenge either, because of clause 1.
3. "Characters that cannot fight or strike blows (including those that are not engaged with an enemy model) cannot accept challenges." pg. 64. This means Nobs that are not engaged as per clause 2 cannot accept challenges. Cannot accept challenges != refusing challenges.
4. "Models make their attacks when their Initiative step is reached.... Note that certain situations, abilities and weapons [Emphasis mine] can modify a model's Initiative." pg. 23. This means that a Nob piles in at I1 because of his PK and also attacks at I1 because of the PK.
5. "Wounds from Precision Strikes are allocated against an engaged model (or models) of your choice in the unit he is attacking, rather than following the normal rounds for Wound allocation." pg. 63. This means that a Nob cannot be picked out in combat because he is not engaged as per clause 2.
I find it amazing how not a lot of people are reading the minute details of the rules.
EDIT: Note that of course this really only works in the first round of combat. Once the second round starts, the Nob can of course be challenged or be hit by Precision Strikes since he should be clearly engaged.
Hmmm I should give that second a 4th look, you may have found the magic loophole!? I was always under the impression that when you accepted a challenge your character would then move 'magically' into B2B with the challenger thus "engaging" him, but if you cannot accept a challenge beacuse you are not engaged in the first place, this suddenly got awesome!
waaaaghboss wrote:How are warbuggies? I have 5 of the old trukks that I might convert into buggies to go with my new shooty ork army.
I've always ran 3 buggies in my speed freek lists, and had great success with them. However, I'm not sure how hullpoints are going to impact them yet.
Just be careful that you don't build them the same size as trukks, or people might complain about size. You may also find them harder to get though terrain with such a long wheel base.
I'd suggest chopping them down a little.
I might have to. These are the old plastic trukks that were around back in 3rd edition, so they might be smaller than current trucks and about the rough size of buggies? Maybe I should rethink this and just keep them as trukks in case I ever feel like sending out tincans and try something else to get buggies into my list. Buggies just seem pretty solid at 30some points a pop.
EDIT just looked at GWs site and I'm blown away that they still use the old old trakks and buggies! Those things are hideous! To further beat a dead horse, 30 bucks for something that makes me cringe?
waaaaghboss wrote:How are warbuggies? I have 5 of the old trukks that I might convert into buggies to go with my new shooty ork army.
I've always ran 3 buggies in my speed freek lists, and had great success with them. However, I'm not sure how hullpoints are going to impact them yet.
Just be careful that you don't build them the same size as trukks, or people might complain about size. You may also find them harder to get though terrain with such a long wheel base.
I'd suggest chopping them down a little.
I might have to. These are the old plastic trukks that were around back in 3rd edition, so they might be smaller than current trucks and about the rough size of buggies? Maybe I should rethink this and just keep them as trukks in case I ever feel like sending out tincans and try something else to get buggies into my list. Buggies just seem pretty solid at 30some points a pop.
I've converted my old 3E trukks into buggies and they work great. Slightly wider than the offical buggy model and my coverted deff copta to buggy conversions, but nothing terrible or game breaking. I just slapped an old tank turrent into the back bucket and some extra bitz and it looks the part just fine.
What's amusing is that I already ran my Battlewagons with Armour, 'Ard Case, Killkannon, Kannon, 4x Rokkits, Grot riggers, and with a Big Mek KFF and 3 Burnameks (along with 2/3 Burnas) inside.
Of course, I also run one with all the 'close combat' attachments in it as well.
EDIT just looked at GWs site and I'm blown away that they still use the old old trakks and buggies! Those things are hideous! To further beat a dead horse, 30 bucks for something that makes me cringe?
Rumors say that 2013 might have a wave of orks with buggies and koptas
Yes, I use scorcha in Deffdread. About the nob in the mob, I think he will have to be in the second or middle line of the 20 boyz. But if you attack a vehicle or walker be careful with the overwatch.
Hey, matphat! You're doing an awesome job collecting all of the data us Orks need to know for 6th Edition! I have a request, though. If anything on the first page has been verified by a battle report, could you post a link to the battle report, kind of like a citation? I think that would be awesome!
Zog Off wrote:Hey, matphat! You're doing an awesome job collecting all of the data us Orks need to know for 6th Edition! I have a request, though. If anything on the first page has been verified by a battle report, could you post a link to the battle report, kind of like a citation? I think that would be awesome!
Thanks all! I'm having a blast doing it. I'm also more than happy to post citations on verified tactics.
Right now, everything I have came from this thread, a few other threads on Dakka, and one BatRep from Da40kOrks on Youtube.
I'm going to start digging in to more batreps to verify some of the other tactics, and find new ones. Also, if you find a tactic in Dakka, a Batrep, or anywhere else, feel free to PM it to me or drop it here. I'll add it in asap.
Even if we decide to save points by leaving out the cost of a PK, is a Boss still worth taking simply for the higher Ld and a bosspole or other cheap 'support' wargear?
At least we got the AOBR koptas, which are far better than the fugly metal ones.
I'd be interested to see whaich way they took buggies though, as my evil go-karts are a bit unimposing at present (the official model oens anyway )
IA8 has awesome concept art for buggies. If you have your own gold mine, you could buy a taurus(IG buggie) and the nob bikerz set to build them (the are made from bits out of these two sets). It's 100+ GBP per buggy though :|
I have been running an airbase, dakkajets and nob bikers it seems pretty solid, and is loads of fun without having to move 100+ models everyturn.
Da Airbase:
Aegis defence line, quad gun and comms. I stick 10 gretchins behind it to man the guns at BS3, they are actually smaller then the aegis line walls so can't be shot/or get ridiculous cover saves. I also stick a squad of 10-15 lootas behind the line so they get a nice 4+ cover save. This is a great firebase downing enemy fliers with ease and putting the dakka on anything in range, in addition I get to re-roll the reserves for my jets.
I can just imagine a bunch of grots round a radar table (WW2 style) calling on the radio "Broken arrer! We need strike on target call sign Wiskey, Alpha, Alpha, Alpha, Golf, Hotel!"
"Wilko ground kontrol... Skwadron Leader to the rest of you gitz. Time for some Waaagh from above, boys"
Dakkajets handy stats:
At BS3 9 twin linked shots will on average equate to 7 hits. So that mean 14 hits with Waagh! Against anything T4 and under that equates to 6 wounds (12 when you waagh!).
BS3 9(18) shots:
AV10 AV11 AV12
3.5(7) 2.3(4.6) 1.1(2.3)
Suffice to say Dakkajets tear through AV10 and AV11.
Thank you all for these tactics people, it helps a lot. The Aegis defense line with a BS-3 Quad-Gun looks good! It seems like there are still two ways to play Orks: either a shooty green tide backed by big gunz and lootas, or the usual battlewagon / bikers option with loads of dakka. How about Wazzdakka Gutsmek? People tend to prefer a standard warboss biker; is it about losing the benefit of S10 PK attacks? An all-biker army sounds quite good to me, though. A penny for your thoughts!
Also, which option would work best for bigger games (2k+)?
1- Battlewagons + Bikers
2- Battlewagons + Big Gunz
3- Bikers + Big Gunz
Finally, I think nobody really mentioned Apocalyptic games on this topic, except a quick word about Forgeworld's updates. The Squiggoth is as good as before, but Big Mek's Stompa is way more killy now. The lifta-droppa causes the loss of 1D6 hull points to most vehicles each turn it shoots, with the possibility of killing two (three?) birds with one stone - chimeras and land raiders alike. Grot-bombs can hit flyers on 2+. In close combat, now it gets +D3 S10 attacks when it charges. HUGE buff imo. Well, most of the legendary units are (very) powerful. Must be the best option though, if you ever have to fight an epic battle.
Im REALLY excited to use some DAKKAjets. Is it just me, or do they pump out an impressive amount of DAKKA for the points? Obviously I dont care, because Im going to be mowing some mofos down. But still
KingCracker wrote:Im REALLY excited to use some DAKKAjets. Is it just me, or do they pump out an impressive amount of DAKKA for the points? Obviously I dont care, because Im going to be mowing some mofos down. But still
They live up to their name that's for sure. I modelled mine with a nose mounted punisher cannon.
I have seen little comment on the change to the ram and tank shock rule and how that nerfed the Deff Rolla...
You can't disembark after a ram/tanhkshot.
You can't ram/tankshot on a turn unit embarked on a vehicle.
That greatly changes the dynamic... now if you destroy a transport with a tankshock, your opponent get to shoot and possibly your BW before you come out... :(
The BW itself is still an AV14 wall, so it's great, but I'm doubtful if a Deffrolla is all that great now.
Tarkand wrote:I have seen little comment on the change to the ram and tank shock rule and how that nerfed the Deff Rolla...
You can't disembark after a ram/tanhkshot.
You can't ram/tankshot on a turn unit embarked on a vehicle.
That greatly changes the dynamic... now if you destroy a transport with a tankshock, your opponent get to shoot and possibly your BW before you come out... :(
The BW itself is still an AV14 wall, so it's great, but I'm doubtful if a Deffrolla is all that great now.
Can you snap shot from a tank that has just rammed or shocked?
If so, it might be nice to be able to unload 60 shoota shots in to the now disembarked unit.
I usually disembarked before anyway so I could follow up with some crazy krumpin. I think you couldn't disembark after a tank shock in 5e either, essentially all your boyz held on for their dear life.
Not true, the Ramming rules do not mention the ramming vehicle losing a hull point. In fact, ramming is the same as it was in 5th.
EDIT: Burnas cannot snap fire template weapons, they can only Wall of Death when they're being charged. Vehicles that ram/tank shock can only snap fire, so yes, our Shootas can snap fire at the guys that are exposed when we ram a transport.
AresX8 wrote:Not true, the Ramming rules do not mention the ramming vehicle losing a hull point. In fact, ramming is the same as it was in 5th.
EDIT: Burnas cannot snap fire template weapons, they can only Wall of Death when they're being charged. Vehicles that ram/tank shock can only snap fire, so yes, our Shootas can snap fire at the guys that are exposed when we ram a transport.
Thanks for the clarification. This rule goes for lootas as well, doesn't it?
AresX8 wrote:Not true, the Ramming rules do not mention the ramming vehicle losing a hull point. In fact, ramming is the same as it was in 5th.
EDIT: Burnas cannot snap fire template weapons, they can only Wall of Death when they're being charged. Vehicles that ram/tank shock can only snap fire, so yes, our Shootas can snap fire at the guys that are exposed when we ram a transport.
Oh good. That was a terrifying hour. Haha. And yes, Lootas can Snap Fire as well.
Thanks for the answer, my deffrollas are safe now. It will be unfair the deffrolla be nerfed too since the use of power klaw is difficult enough in 6th.
matphat wrote:Thanks all! I'm having a blast doing it. I'm also more than happy to post citations on verified tactics.
Right now, everything I have came from this thread, a few other threads on Dakka, and one BatRep from Da40kOrks on Youtube.
I'm going to start digging in to more batreps to verify some of the other tactics, and find new ones. Also, if you find a tactic in Dakka, a Batrep, or anywhere else, feel free to PM it to me or drop it here. I'll add it in asap.
Do you follow miniwargamming.com ? the main guy doing the batreps is a ork player. does a fantastic Waaaaagh. They've done 2 single unit bat reps to show how the rules work and he faced a chaos army.
matphat wrote:Thanks all! I'm having a blast doing it. I'm also more than happy to post citations on verified tactics.
Right now, everything I have came from this thread, a few other threads on Dakka, and one BatRep from Da40kOrks on Youtube.
I'm going to start digging in to more batreps to verify some of the other tactics, and find new ones. Also, if you find a tactic in Dakka, a Batrep, or anywhere else, feel free to PM it to me or drop it here. I'll add it in asap.
Do you follow miniwargamming.com ? the main guy doing the batreps is a ork player. does a fantastic Waaaaagh. They've done 2 single unit bat reps to show how the rules work and he faced a chaos army.
I watched the video, seemed like a good game. However, when i saw the blast damage effecting only the models that it touched I wondered what happens now to Ork Burna wagons? We covered that you can't snap shot them from a BW and if you can only deal wounds to the models you actually touch then wouldn't Burna wagons be somewhat useless to shoot out of?
If i'm reading the rules correct; if there is a squad of 10 marines and our 15 burna's in a open topped BW (or at all for that matter) can only hit 4 of them can we only deal wounds to those 4 specific models?
Vid wrote:I watched the video, seemed like a good game. However, when i saw the blast damage effecting only the models that it touched I wondered what happens now to Ork Burna wagons? We covered that you can't snap shot them from a BW and if you can only deal wounds to the models you actually touch then wouldn't Burna wagons be somewhat useless to shoot out of?
If i'm reading the rules correct; if there is a squad of 10 marines and our 15 burna's in a open topped BW (or at all for that matter) can only hit 4 of them can we only deal wounds to those 4 specific models?
Everything looks the same from 5th to me. It just says that "Wounds inflicted by Template weapons are allocated following the normal rules". So I would think that its still the same.
They only removed those models because of the new wound allocation. Since flamers are such short range, more often than not, the models under the template are the closest to the source of the shooting. This isn't always the case though.
Plus they screwed up the blast weapon wounds. You only pull the specific models under the template if it's a barrage weapon. Regular blast weapons like Leman Russ battle tanks, ML's, Looted wagons, etc. pull casualties from the front, just like other normal shooting attacks.
You stick your Shas'el in the front of your shoota horde due to his potential low ap shots (tough stuff killer) and barrage (new template rules make it great), and because of the volume of fire of the CiB its great for overwatch which is very useful for shoota horde. As well as this by placing his drones in front of him, and on the front line of the orks, the enemy is forced to do a disordered (Clumsy) charge and therefore won't gain the bonuses Drones are also a wound dump. Obviously the broadsides for land raider popping etc, with shield drones being mandatory for them in any build.
There are many configs for tau allies but this is a nice simple one, i have a more complex one and better one but i won't go into that now unless people explicitly want to hear about it (in the 500 points region of detachment)
On another topic, if anyone wants to have a look at / evaluate this 1750 list for orks for me id appreciate it as when i posted it it go pushed down like 8 times in 5 seconds so no one saw it basically :/ Might shed some light and new concepts tactics on 6th ed orks! Ive never fielded anything like it (wagon spam for me in 5th), thanks http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/461421.page
Anyone else considering Necron Allies? Warriors are great against any vehicle, are resilient, and fairly cheap. Albeit it's expensive, sticking them in a Ghost Ark further adds to their survivability and firepower. Only problem is that the unit starts to add up in the points, and the Overlord that would be taken has to ride in a Command Barge due to Convenience rules.
I think the optimal necron allies loadout would be a CCB Olord, a Night Scythe with warriors, and a Doom Scythe.
Gets your warriors into vehicle popping glance range quickly, mucks around with pew pew lightning, and the doom scythe just draws lines across people, all while your orks are slogging up the middle, laughing their green asses off at all the explosions.
AresX8 wrote:Anyone else considering Necron Allies? Warriors are great against any vehicle, are resilient, and fairly cheap. Albeit it's expensive, sticking them in a Ghost Ark further adds to their survivability and firepower. Only problem is that the unit starts to add up in the points, and the Overlord that would be taken has to ride in a Command Barge due to Convenience rules.
Just food for thought.
I'm torn on taking a potential ally.
I could do Necrons and model them as tinboyz. Ramshackle Scythes would be neat.
I could take Chaos Space Marines (not that I want to) and either have pirates like the Red Corsairs or forge a shaky alliance like in Dawn of War: Winter Assault.
I could take Tau. Enslaved Fire Warriors, Dakka Grots, or Flash Gitz for troops. Meganobz with mega dakkaguns for Broadsides.
I could (though it's not recommended) take Grey Knights for an ally:
The Orkwisition! Orkwisitah Orky - Da - Madda and his retinue. Servytas, Jokey Grot Technicians, and a ninja grot (vindicare assassin).
Here's a question: Do Markerlights, and those Necron Triarch Stalker designation things, and other devices that modify BS or otherwise make it easier to hit things- do those work for allies, and more importanntly, Orks?
Anvildude wrote:Here's a question: Do Markerlights, and those Necron Triarch Stalker designation things, and other devices that modify BS or otherwise make it easier to hit things- do those work for allies, and more importanntly, Orks?
No, Orks don't have allies, we have another enemy army on the field who we aren't going to smash today.
Anvildude wrote:Here's a question: Do Markerlights, and those Necron Triarch Stalker designation things, and other devices that modify BS or otherwise make it easier to hit things- do those work for allies, and more importanntly, Orks?
No, Orks don't have allies, we have another enemy army on the field who we aren't going to smash today.
I think he's asking if items or abilities that grant "+1 BS" will count towards snapfire and the like.
I'm curious about that myself.
Dakkajetz can purchase +1BS and they have a flyer rule that gives them +1BS too I think.
If that is infact the case than Dakkajetz never have to deal with snapfire... they always shoot at the equivelent of BS3.
A rule setting a stat will always overrule all modifiers. So even if you quadruple your BS and then add the number of boyz to it, snap fire will still be at BS1.
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Capt. Camping wrote:So, if we are talking about shoota style now, will it be good to have a Killkannon in the battlewagon and transporting 12?
It will never be good to have a killkannon unless it drops in points, gains range and/or increases in strength. For those points you could simply outfit your battlewagon with four big shootaz and rokkits and a kannon. Then put 20 shootaz inside.
Dr. What wrote:I could take Tau. Enslaved Fire Warriors, Dakka Grots, or Flash Gitz for troops. Meganobz with mega dakkaguns for Broadsides.
Like this?
Been running my 'Orksides' for a few years now in Apoc. games.
Over at Da Waaagh!, we've been doing some Klan rules since the last codex came out and the old Chapter Approved rules died. I added some 'Meganob Gunslingaz' into the Bad Moon list which were essentially more expensive broadsides. Check the sig. Some of the guys have done some pretty pictures:
A killkannon pucks a much needed punch against a flanking assault marine squad compared to a lame kannon
Seeing as passengers can fire at a different target to a vehicle, dakkawagons have the potential to blow up 2 tanks a turn, assuming loota fire is coming out one way and death the other
Personally i think running the killkannon in a green tide is a good idea, however 2 boomgun wagons is also nice, its all about killing MEQ! We can pwn anything else (there isn't enough terminators for the tide)
Anybody else feel like Battlewagons are still viable, but Deff-rolla's might be dead.
Rules that affect this:
-Cant disembark if a vehicle goes more then combat speed
-All vehicles can fire all weapons if moving cruising speed
-improved leathality of Lascannons
-All vehicles get extra movement during shooting phase
-Can't ram during the shooting phase
It just seems like the Deffrolla BW is never going to catch a vehicle that keeps moving. And since all vehicles can fire even if moving cruising speed, our enemies can keep moving and shooting until they get lucky.
I suppose, Tau Hammerhead with multi-tracker is going to screw everything, seeing as it is a fast skimmer tank
I think deff rolla's are good if used in the green tide, but nowhere else or they are just singled out. The tank will advance at same pace as tide (6 inches) and will ram any vehicle driving up to the tide (will save the tide from a land raider redeemer for example)
mrfantastical wrote:Anybody else feel like Battlewagons are still viable, but Deff-rolla's might be dead.
Rules that affect this:
-Cant disembark if a vehicle goes more then combat speed
-All vehicles can fire all weapons if moving cruising speed
-improved leathality of Lascannons
-All vehicles get extra movement during shooting phase
-Can't ram during the shooting phase
It just seems like the Deffrolla BW is never going to catch a vehicle that keeps moving. And since all vehicles can fire even if moving cruising speed, our enemies can keep moving and shooting until they get lucky.
Just my thoughts.
Maybe I misunderstand you, but when am I not going to move 12" and ram someone? Are you saying you'd only ever move 6, so you could fire everything, despite having the option to move 12 and catch up to that vehicle and Deff Roll it?
Movement Phase, disembark your squad 6 inches in front of the battlewagon (slightly to the side so it can steamroll straight ahead at a rhino), and then move it 12 inches into somethings face.
That way you can disembark! Your troops can shoot! You can ram! And nothing in the ork arsenal is better than D6 S10 against a vehicle so, no "i want to fire my zzap gun at it...".....KRUMP
Just seems like it'd be better to have BW's be mobile weapon platforms now then Post-Ram Assault delivery system.
The way every vehicle is more mobile now, our 12" ram doesn't seem that viable anymore.
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matphat wrote:
mrfantastical wrote:Anybody else feel like Battlewagons are still viable, but Deff-rolla's might be dead.
Rules that affect this:
-Cant disembark if a vehicle goes more then combat speed
-All vehicles can fire all weapons if moving cruising speed
-improved leathality of Lascannons
-All vehicles get extra movement during shooting phase
-Can't ram during the shooting phase
It just seems like the Deffrolla BW is never going to catch a vehicle that keeps moving. And since all vehicles can fire even if moving cruising speed, our enemies can keep moving and shooting until they get lucky.
Just my thoughts.
Maybe I misunderstand you, but when am I not going to move 12" and ram someone? Are you saying you'd only ever move 6, so you could fire everything, despite having the option to move 12 and catch up to that vehicle and Deff Roll it?
A smart opponent is always going to stay 13"+ away from our BW's. And now that vehicles can move at least 6" in the shooting phase, how do we catch them? we can't Ram during our 6" movement during shooting.
So basicly, the only viable builds (competitive) we got left is: bikernobs
(Shooty) green tide.
Whereas in last edition we had:
Trukkspam
Kommandospam (15x3 kommandomobs outflanking, one coming from the rear with snikrot and ghaz was scary)
Kanwall
Dreadstomp
Battlewagon deffrolla rush
Green tide
Nobspam
Biker-nobspam
Add a side dish of koptas on any build, and/or small kommando mob with snikky and warboss
thats a good point, with premeasuring its now basically guaranteed you wont be in ram range, if the opponent has a brain, or if he wants his vehicle to die on purpose. If i was up against a battlewagon id park 14 inches away and screw him over.
Jag_Calle wrote:So basicly, the only viable builds (competitive) we got left is: bikernobs
(Shooty) green tide.
Whereas in last edition we had:
Trukkspam
Kommandospam (15x3 kommandomobs outflanking, one coming from the rear with snikrot and ghaz was scary)
Kanwall
Dreadstomp
Battlewagon deffrolla rush
Green tide
Nobspam
Biker-nobspam
Add a side dish of koptas on any build, and/or small kommando mob with snikky and warboss
I think Battle Wagons as the foundation for a Speed Freek Rokkit list would be viable.
3x BW w/ RPJ, Riggers, (maybe 'ard case), and 4x rokkits.
or Dakka list with the same + 4x big shootas and Lootas.
I woudn't discount the BW list yet. There is still a ton of mileage there.
Please, post your results! All of the talk about the Dread Bash/Kan Wall sounds bleak. As a guy who is three Killa Kans away from finishing his army, I am so disappointed by the discussion! I would love to find ways to make the build work in 6th Edition.
If you have two rollas or box someone in, then they are hardly obsolete. Positioning a rolla in range of somewhere where the enemy wants to will force them to make a decision.
Besides, walkers, MCs and for that matter the majority of units in the game generally move less than 12" a turn.
Dribble Joy wrote:If you have two rollas or box someone in, then they are hardly obsolete. Positioning a rolla in range of somewhere where the enemy wants to will force them to make a decision.
Besides, walkers, MCs and for that matter the majority of units in the game generally move less than 12" a turn.
Yes but for some wierd reason a giant spikey rolling pin that crushes vehicles, still allows infantry models to take their armor save. So if that's all the Deffrolla is good for now, I'm not sure if 20 points wouldn't be better spend on Rokkits.
Looks good but id recommend dropping the skorcha's on the dreads for another DCCW (30 burna boys is enough!) and dropping one squad of shoota's and increasing another to 30 strong, that gives you 90 points, and ditch grot riggers and armour plates, giving you 120 Points. This means you can have a dakkjet /w extra supa shoota, to provide long range fire support (i.e glancebash a manticore turn 2 so it doesnt level your horde) as well as protect the flanks etc. Remember your 8 Meks can handle not having riggers!, and dont forget your 5+ vehicle cover save from KFF, to make the riggers and armour plates needed, and to stop 11 walkers with that much "mek", they're goign to need like 15 long fangs minimum. 10 hits, 6 glance/penetrate, 2 get saved. So if 15 lascannons shot one deff dread, it will just about die. Food for thought! (Remember thats 15 lascannons...most armies dont have that...) - Mathhammer Averaging!
Orkaswampa wrote:Looks good but id recommend dropping the skorcha's on the dreads for another DCCW (30 burna boys is enough!) and dropping one squad of shoota's and increasing another to 30 strong, that gives you 90 points, and ditch grot riggers and armour plates, giving you 120 Points. This means you can have a dakkjet /w extra supa shoota, to provide long range fire support (i.e glancebash a manticore turn 2 so it doesnt level your horde) as well as protect the flanks etc. Remember your 8 Meks can handle not having riggers!, and dont forget your 5+ vehicle cover save from KFF, to make the riggers and armour plates needed, and to stop 11 walkers with that much "mek", they're goign to need like 15 long fangs minimum. 10 hits, 6 glance/penetrate, 2 get saved. So if 15 lascannons shot one deff dread, it will just about die. Food for thought! (Remember thats 15 lascannons...most armies dont have that...) - Mathhammer Averaging!
I agree completely with everything you just said. I'm curious though, could this be pulled off at 1500 and still be viable?
lol nice And yes it can! If you use dredmob army list from kastorel novem your opponent should run away from this, pure deff dread meka dread.
But that's for another day, here, assuming dakkajet is in - -10 Burna's (shared over both squads) 150 Point - Shoota Squad of 20 - 165 (Keep a squad of 30, you can use the other squad of 20 for objective / detour) - 3 Kill Kanz - 150
You're now at - 1555 Points. This is where its tricky :( Id drop the 6 rokkits on the kans, which cost 90 points, giving you 45 points to put upgrades on the kans, then stick 6 skorcha's on them (Wall of death, also compensates for burna loss and allows them to run off on their own and not get mashed by a power fist), leaving you with 15 points left over, might as well smack a grot oiler on each big mek and one on another mek, or stick another burna boy in.
But it's up to you! 1500 is much different to 2k :(
Erm...just realised you could have 18 Killa Kans and 2 Deff Dreads (Troop dreads) in 2k, DOUBLE FORCE ORG ;D
Big Mek /w KFF X2 - 85 Deff Dread /w 2x DCCW x2 - 210 18x Killa Kans /w 18x Rokkits - 900 20x Shoota Boyz /w Nob /w BP - 140 20x Shoota Boyz /w Nob /w BP - 140 20x Shoota Boyz /w Nob /w BP - 140 Dakkajet /w Fighta Ace + Extra SS - 130 Dakkajet /w Fighta Ace + Extra SS - 130 10 Gretchin to grab an objective you palce in the safest possible position on your board edge or to hide in a building in kill games - 40pts
-drools a bit- However i reckon mroe people will play 1999 now but oh well, that looks nasty.
Orkaswampa wrote:lol nice And yes it can! If you use dredmob army list from kastorel novem your opponent should run away from this, pure deff dread meka dread.
But that's for another day, here, assuming dakkajet is in -
-10 Burna's (shared over both squads) 150 Point
- Shoota Squad of 20 - 165 (Keep a squad of 30, you can use the other squad of 20 for objective / detour)
- 3 Kill Kanz - 150
You're now at - 1555 Points.
This is where its tricky :( Id drop the 6 rokkits on the kans, which cost 90 points, giving you 45 points to put upgrades on the kans, then stick 6 skorcha's on them (Wall of death, also compensates for burna loss and allows them to run off on their own and not get mashed by a power fist), leaving you with 15 points left over, might as well smack a grot oiler on each big mek and one on another mek, or stick another burna boy in.
But it's up to you! 1500 is much different to 2k :(
Erm...just realised you could have 18 Killa Kans and 2 Deff Dreads (Troop dreads) in 2k, DOUBLE FORCE ORG ;D
Big Mek /w KFF X2 - 85
Deff Dread /w 2x DCCW x2 - 210
18x Killa Kans /w 18x Rokkits - 900
20x Shoota Boyz /w Nob /w BP - 140
20x Shoota Boyz /w Nob /w BP - 140
20x Shoota Boyz /w Nob /w BP - 140
Dakkajet /w Fighta Ace + Extra SS - 130
Dakkajet /w Fighta Ace + Extra SS - 130
10 Gretchin to grab an objective you palce in the safest possible position on your board edge or to hide in a building in kill games - 40pts
-drools a bit- However i reckon mroe people will play 1999 now but oh well, that looks nasty.
Hahaha, oh hell no.
I painted 9 Kans and 2 Deffdreds all at once. I can promise you I'll never do that again. No matter how crazy it would look on the field.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Would love to see what others in this thread have been running in their 6th Ed. games and what your experiences were.
Orkaswampa wrote:lol nice And yes it can! If you use dredmob army list from kastorel novem your opponent should run away from this, pure deff dread meka dread.
But that's for another day, here, assuming dakkajet is in -
-10 Burna's (shared over both squads) 150 Point
- Shoota Squad of 20 - 165 (Keep a squad of 30, you can use the other squad of 20 for objective / detour)
- 3 Kill Kanz - 150
You're now at - 1555 Points.
This is where its tricky :( Id drop the 6 rokkits on the kans, which cost 90 points, giving you 45 points to put upgrades on the kans, then stick 6 skorcha's on them (Wall of death, also compensates for burna loss and allows them to run off on their own and not get mashed by a power fist), leaving you with 15 points left over, might as well smack a grot oiler on each big mek and one on another mek, or stick another burna boy in.
But it's up to you! 1500 is much different to 2k :(
Erm...just realised you could have 18 Killa Kans and 2 Deff Dreads (Troop dreads) in 2k, DOUBLE FORCE ORG ;D
Big Mek /w KFF X2 - 85
Deff Dread /w 2x DCCW x2 - 210
18x Killa Kans /w 18x Rokkits - 900
20x Shoota Boyz /w Nob /w BP - 140
20x Shoota Boyz /w Nob /w BP - 140
20x Shoota Boyz /w Nob /w BP - 140
Dakkajet /w Fighta Ace + Extra SS - 130
Dakkajet /w Fighta Ace + Extra SS - 130
10 Gretchin to grab an objective you palce in the safest possible position on your board edge or to hide in a building in kill games - 40pts
-drools a bit- However i reckon mroe people will play 1999 now but oh well, that looks nasty.
Two absolutely absurd deathstars with:4+ Cover - Better than most
5+ FNP - good vs non-ID weapons now!
5+ Invuln - Always good, especially now with more constant FNP 4+ Armor (for what its worth)
2+/4+ Look out, Sir! - Boss up front to soak S10 wounds, 2+ LoS! for him, 4+ Los! otherwise for wound shenanigans
Unmodified T5 - so S10 to ID now!
Precision Strike - shooting and combat!
TL Weapons - Good vs Flyers (better chance at 6's)
S10 Power Klaw - Boss sports a nasty way to gut opposing enemies
Super, super fast unit - easier time assaulting than most units and often on turn two
The Gretchin just go in reserve and walk onto your two table-side objectives and hope no one notices. With the Bikers being so mobile, you can crush through your opponent and keep them tied down, so this should work.
The Dakkajets are your only real anti-air units - All of the three Supa Shootas are Twin-Linked, meaning more chances for success - though sadly Fighta Ace wasn't addressed in the FAQ to include Flyers (just skimmers and jetbikes). If ever it does get bumped to include Flyers, then these get even more nasty. 9 S6 shots should put a hurting on Flyers, even if only glancing to strip Hull Points. On Waaagh!, you get 18 S6 shots, meaning ~9 hits, which translates to roughly 3-4 Glances (or Pens) on AV10, 2-3 Glances (or Pens) on AV11, and 1-2 Glances on AV12 (rough math, don't quote me on this!). So, each Dakkajet can drop a Night Scythe the turn they arrive - which is solid, since they are the only ones spamming much numbers. This does mean that on Waaagh! turn you should put a lot of effort into popping Stormravens - which should be fewer in number anyhow!
I think its disgusting and only the most extreme torrent of fire lists and/or bad dice rolls will cause much worry. With the old threat of Thundernators removed, few enemies can muster the S10 needed to kill this list and with Precision Strike in shooting, you can pile wounds onto the Daemon Hammers and whatnot that might prove an issue.
According to the copy of the Dakkajet rules available through iTunes Fighta Ace does work against flyers. I don't have a copy to verify but that's what I've heard.
@ Dribble: I didn't know Da Waaagh!! was still active. I thought it had died a lonely death to spambots- Wait. Nevermind. I was thinking of Da Gargant Owner's Klub.
Also, at those Dreadbash lists- those aren't really Dreadbash. More like a modified Kan Wall. What you want for a Dreadbash at 2000 is to swap two of those Boyz mobs (from the first posted) for a Big Mek w/ Mega Armour and another kitted out Dredd. (that's a Boyz mob per dred/mek combo).
Also, replace any remaining Boyz with Killa Kanz, and split the Burnas up into more mobz, with more Meks. Grot Riggers on everything, to keep repairing those Hull Points. The point of this list is to have pretty much everything on the field be immune to anything Strength 4 and under, and have so many of them that the Heavy Weapons are swamped.
Give the Meks in the Burna squads Big Shootas, and use them (as Characters!) to snipe out the Heavy Weapons, as well.
Fliers can choose to gain Skyfire (or what ever it's called) at the beginning of their shooting phase, though I'm not sure if they can if they are in hover mode.
mrfantastical wrote:Yes but for some wierd reason a giant spikey rolling pin that crushes vehicles, still allows infantry models to take their armor save. So if that's all the Deffrolla is good for now, I'm not sure if 20 points wouldn't be better spend on Rokkits.
20 points is naff all compared to what it can win you back. A few wounds off an MC, two muhreens, a bunch of 'umies. I still think it's a good investment, but not the no-brainer choice it once was. Which can only be a good thing.
Anvildude wrote:@ Dribble: I didn't know Da Waaagh!! was still active. I thought it had died a lonely death to spambots- Wait. Nevermind. I was thinking of Da Gargant Owner's Klub.
Also, at those Dreadbash lists- those aren't really Dreadbash. More like a modified Kan Wall. What you want for a Dreadbash at 2000 is to swap two of those Boyz mobs (from the first posted) for a Big Mek w/ Mega Armour and another kitted out Dredd. (that's a Boyz mob per dred/mek combo).
Also, replace any remaining Boyz with Killa Kanz, and split the Burnas up into more mobz, with more Meks. Grot Riggers on everything, to keep repairing those Hull Points. The point of this list is to have pretty much everything on the field be immune to anything Strength 4 and under, and have so many of them that the Heavy Weapons are swamped.
Give the Meks in the Burna squads Big Shootas, and use them (as Characters!) to snipe out the Heavy Weapons, as well.
I'm digging the idea, but I don't see where the scoring units are. How do we hold objectives with that kind of list?
Will the 9 BS3 Rokkits be enough ranged, strong firepower? I wonder if using Lootas instead of Burna Boyz would make the list more versatile, since Lootas can move and shoot now. Still, at 1850 points and above, I'm afraid the enemy will have a lot of firepower to eat through those walkers.
Would the formation of a Dread/Kan mob change in 6th Edition? I mean, the Boyz don't have to walk behind the wall anymore. Would they go out front, like:
Will the 9 BS3 Rokkits be enough ranged, strong firepower? I wonder if using Lootas instead of Burna Boyz would make the list more versatile, since Lootas can move and shoot now. Still, at 1850 points and above, I'm afraid the enemy will have a lot of firepower to eat through those walkers.
Would the formation of a Dread/Kan mob change in 6th Edition? I mean, the Boyz don't have to walk behind the wall anymore. Would they go out front, like:
I was thinking something like that, yes, but the burnas need to be out front to get the Wall of Death I believe. I think it would be more like, Bubble wrap the Dreds in burnas, and boyz more or less on flanks?
I'd say put the boyz up front to soak up shooting wounds then the burnas behind them. Or have boyz in front lootas with mek boyz in the rear then all you have to worry about is units deepstriking behind you as you move up, and blast weapons of course lol
Something to keep in mind all with the " the sky is falling!" crying about deff rollas is, that you can now shoot at BS1 with both passengers and wagon after a ram. And if it gets assaulted, you can shoot overwatch at the assaulting unit.
You simply have to change the way you use them.
- After ramming a vehicle your tank bustaz/shoota boyz can simply open up fire on anything that plops out. - Tank-shock a burna weagon in the middle of your enemies - he will either assault it and suffer a lot of d3 hits or be scrambling away to get out of "you're toast!"-range. - Battlewagons are less likely to be stunned/immobilized/wrecked now before they have reached their goal. Skipping armor plates and grot riggers is much less of a risk now. On the other hand, multiple big shootaz (up to three without MFA) and/or Klaw+Boarding plank are much more useful now. Did you know that a zooming flier is destroyed when it can't move? Now go chasing planes with that grabbin' klaw - Lootaz in battlewagons now make sense. - Meks can repair hull points, while battlewagons are unlikely to lose four hull points at once.
Jidmah wrote:Something to keep in mind all with the " the sky is falling!" crying about deff rollas is, that you can now shoot at BS1 with both passengers and wagon after a ram. And if it gets assaulted, you can shoot overwatch at the assaulting unit.
You simply have to change the way you use them.
- After ramming a vehicle your tank bustaz/shoota boyz can simply open up fire on anything that plops out.
- Tank-shock a burna weagon in the middle of your enemies - he will either assault it and suffer a lot of d3 hits or be scrambling away to get out of "you're toast!"-range.
- Battlewagons are less likely to be stunned/immobilized/wrecked now before they have reached their goal. Skipping armor plates and grot riggers is much less of a risk now. On the other hand, multiple big shootaz (up to three without MFA) and/or Klaw+Boarding plank are much more useful now.
Did you know that a zooming flier is destroyed when it can't move? Now go chasing planes with that grabbin' klaw - Lootaz in battlewagons now make sense.
- Meks can repair hull points, while battlewagons are unlikely to lose four hull points at once.
This
Orks just got a huge lift in some areas, even if others got a bit of a nerf.
As an old-school ork player who likes to roll across the battlefield firing all guns wildly from my vehicles, 6th is a blessing..
They keep using the word cinematic to describe 6th, and i can't thing of many theings more cinematically cool than snatching a low-flying fighterjet from the sky with a grabbing claw and smashing it into the ground, or planting a wrecking ball in the pilot's lap..
Orks just got a huge lift in some areas, even if others got a bit of a nerf.
As an old-school ork player who likes to roll across the battlefield firing all guns wildly from my vehicles, 6th is a blessing..
They keep using the word cinematic to describe 6th, and i can't thing of many theings more cinematically cool than snatching a low-flying fighterjet from the sky with a grabbing claw and smashing it into the ground, or planting a wrecking ball in the pilot's lap..
And then theirs the ground-to-air squigs
*edit- damn computer gadgetry..*
It's quite impossible to hit a flier with the wrecking ball though, due to difference in height :<
Okay, so having the rulebooks FINALLY arrive in our country on tuesday...
Challenges can INDEED be avoided. They can only be accepted if your character is engaged. Since your Nob will not have consolidated into combat due to being initiative 1, it's very likely that you will be able to keep him out, then move him in and get the attacks. If the opponent assaults the boyz from an angle which forces the nob to be engaged, that's another matter, though...
(also, having avoided this forum until I got the rulebook, likely this is oooold news).
Anyway, biggest issue for me (past the 5+ KFF) is that Gets Hot affects vehicles now - by potentially inflicted a glancing hit. Poor news for my Grot Tanks with KMB's, and Kans with KMB's, but I'm aware that it's only an 8% chance of happening. Still, will have to deal with it! At least they should have access to saves that can attempt to negate it.
Past that, I'm enjoying looking into having a Mega Armour Big Mek joining a unit of Lootas, as well as looking to get Aegis Defence lines for grots and Lootas.
Loss of Gazzy and Snikrot hasn't phased me, since I never used them (for better or worse). Again, I'll just have to learn by fire, using my current list and seeing how the game has changed. I've got a good grip on the rules, having read through the entire rulebook and transcribed all the new information, but things must be experienced first hand.
Deffrolla is still fantastic now because it forces your opponent to stay 13" away, while you move and shoot 13" snap firing 4 heavy shootas and either 18 shootas and two more heavy shootas (20 shoota boys) or 12 Deffgunz and 3 big shootas (12 lootas and 3 meks).
The loota version is what I like to call a Dakkafort.
I had a game with a Dakkafort, I added a Big Mek with a KFF and the thing survived the whole game 4 hull points and 4 mek tools made the thing unkillable.
Beer4TheBeerGod wrote:According to the copy of the Dakkajet rules available through iTunes Fighta Ace does work against flyers. I don't have a copy to verify but that's what I've heard.
You are correct, but one would assume that the term "fighter ace" implies that he is good at shooting down planes. Those rules were written before 6th ed was released (before flyers existed) and I would assume that they will be updated to include flyers in due course. So far GW has only release "quick fix" FAQs which are badly done to say the least, give it time and it will get fixed.
I keep reading the challenging rules as it going into an engaged UNIT, the nob itself has to accept it or lose its attacks. He himself doesn't have to be engaged.
I admit I could be missing something but that is my interpatation for far.
Hello all, loving orks in 6th.... as I loved them in 5th. Played a few games in 6th now and loving how much more killy it is, also liking the added randomness..... I pulled off an 11.5 inch assault and have rarely been more chuffed
One thing that I was a bit peeved about was the dakkajet. The first few turns it did amazingly but then, as my opponents numbers dwindled, it spent the last few turns just zooming about, not facing anyone because of the 90 degree thing. It was by that point completly useless as it can't contest (as no vehicles can).
Obviously now that I know this I will work it into the jets tactics but thinking a few turns ahead and the fact that my opponents unit can, and will, move is a bit annoying. Also we must always ensure as well that a move is possble next turn (i.e you can rotate up to 90 and go at least 18" without going off the board!). My question is am I doing this rght?
Beer4TheBeerGod wrote:According to the copy of the Dakkajet rules available through iTunes Fighta Ace does work against flyers. I don't have a copy to verify but that's what I've heard.
Thats true it says
"When shooting at Jetbikes or vehicles with the skimmer type, a DAKKAjet with Fighta Ace upgrade is treated as being ballistic skill 3"
Jidmah: If you have a hard time lining up shots, you could fly off the table on purpose, so you can get a better angle next turn
Ace, I thought if you went off the board edge you were destroyed.... I take it from this I was wrong, instead you just go into reserves? I will have to re-read the flyers bit I suppose
Did someone say weight of fire was important in 6th?
try
Big Mek (35)
15 lootas (225)
15 lootas (225)
15 burnas (225)
3 Kannons (60)
3 Kannons (60)
3 Kannons (60)
27 shoota boys 3 boys with big shootas (195)
27 shoota boys 3 boys with big shootas (195)
30 shoota boys (180)
30 shoota boys (180)
30 shoota boys (180)
30 shoota boys (180)
2000 points - one force org, [drop 1 elite 1 kannons and 2 troups and it is under 1500 - redistribute to smaller units if you wish]
Of course there are a huge number of issues with this list, but it is the extreme examples that get people thinking. No powerclaws, but nothing to challenge either.
I'd drop the burnas, they don't have the range and really need a transport to work properly. Then you can get a KFF for the BM and throw in another with a SAG.
RFHolloway wrote:Did someone say weight of fire was important in 6th?
try
Spoiler:
Big Mek (35)
15 lootas (225)
15 lootas (225)
15 burnas (225)
3 Kannons (60)
3 Kannons (60)
3 Kannons (60)
27 shoota boys 3 boys with big shootas (195)
27 shoota boys 3 boys with big shootas (195)
30 shoota boys (180)
30 shoota boys (180)
30 shoota boys (180)
30 shoota boys (180)
2000 points - one force org, [drop 1 elite 1 kannons and 2 troups and it is under 1500 - redistribute to smaller units if you wish]
Of course there are a huge number of issues with this list, but it is the extreme examples that get people thinking. No powerclaws, but nothing to challenge either.
You could always just put barebone nobz with BP and big shootaz in your mobz. If you don't care about your close combat ability, you can simply refuse all challenges, while still getting the boss pole and precision shots out of them. You also lack the ability to handle vehicles with that list, nine kannons are not going to be enough.
WaaaghGruzkull wrote:I keep reading the challenging rules as it going into an engaged UNIT, the nob itself has to accept it or lose its attacks. He himself doesn't have to be engaged.
I admit I could be missing something but that is my interpatation for far.
Page 64
"Characters that cannot fight or strike blows (including those that are not engaged with an enemy model) cannot accept challenges."
Let me re-post my breakdown of how Nobs can dodge challenges in the first round of combat that was a few pages back:
AresX8 wrote:
Keep the Nob. Don't stick him in the front, have him more in the middle of the mob, and he can't accept the challenge.
Here's the breakdown of how he can't accept the challenge or be picked out by Precision Strikes:
1. "Challenges are issued at the start of the Fight sub-phase, before any blows are struck." pg. 64. This means this is before the initiative step pile-in moves.
2. "A model is engaged in combat, and must fight if:
- During its initiative step, it is in base contact with one or more enemy models.
- During its initiative step, it is within 2" of a friendly model in base contact with one or more enemy models in the same combat." pg 23.
2. "Characters that cannot fight or strike blows (including those that are not engaged with an enemy model) cannot issue challenges." pg. 64. This means your Nob can't issue a challenge either, because of clause 1.
3. "Characters that cannot fight or strike blows (including those that are not engaged with an enemy model) cannot accept challenges." pg. 64. This means Nobs that are not engaged as per clause 2 cannot accept challenges. Cannot accept challenges != refusing challenges.
4. "Models make their attacks when their Initiative step is reached.... Note that certain situations, abilities and weapons [Emphasis mine] can modify a model's Initiative." pg. 23. This means that a Nob piles in at I1 because of his PK and also attacks at I1 because of the PK.
5. "Wounds from Precision Strikes are allocated against an engaged model (or models) of your choice in the unit he is attacking, rather than following the normal rounds for Wound allocation." pg. 63. This means that a Nob cannot be picked out in combat because he is not engaged as per clause 2.
I find it amazing how not a lot of people are reading the minute details of the rules.
EDIT: Note that of course this really only works in the first round of combat. Once the second round starts, the Nob can of course be challenged or be hit by Precision Strikes since he should be clearly engaged.
I'm going to clear my head on this Nob accepting challenges thing, because I don't get why it's so complicated. Feedback is welcome.
The scenario is:
You don't want to accept a challenge because your Nob is up against a character that the Nob probably wont beat, who may kill the Nob in the process? Right?
All this talk of working the rules to be out of "engagement" to try and avoid the challenge is moot.
The reason is, if your Nob is challenged, you can just refuse it.
Sure, you don't get to attack that round, but if you went to all the trouble to try and maneuver out of engagement, just to deny a powerful character the ability to challenge your Nob, then you don't get to attack that round anyway.
Why go to all the hassle, wrestling with Nob placement, when the outcome is exactly the same?
Your Nob will either be out of engagement (and not attacking), or denying the challenge (And not attacking).
matphat wrote:I'm going to clear my head on this Nob accepting challenges thing, because I don't get why it's so complicated. Feedback is welcome.
The scenario is:
You don't want to accept a challenge because your Nob is up against a character that the Nob probably wont beat, who may kill the Nob in the process? Right?
Don't accept the challenge if the challenger as the ability to ID your nob
matphat wrote:
All this talk of working the rules to be out of "engagement" to try and avoid the challenge is moot.
The reason is, if your Nob is challenged, you can just refuse it.
Sure, you don't get to attack that round, but if you went to all the trouble to try and maneuver out of engagement, just to deny a powerful character the ability to challenge your Nob, then you don't get to attack that round anyway.
Why go to all the hassle, wrestling with Nob placement, when the outcome is exactly the same?
Your Nob will either be out of engagement (and not attacking), or denying the challenge (And not attacking).
Am I wrong?
Yes you are. the idea is to take advantage of the different initiative pile ins. So he cannot be challenged but then manages to fight back at initiative step by being within 2inches of an engaged model
Well, the difference is that, if you are out of engagement when the challenge is issues, you can't accept the challenge, but then when you pile in at Initiative step 1, you could become engaged and hence, would be able to attack the unit rather than the other character. But, I agree. That seems like a crapload of work, just to keep your nob out of a challenge. Very un-orky. Just accept the challenge like a true Nob, or run away like a weedy git!!!'
matphat wrote:I'm going to clear my head on this Nob accepting challenges thing, because I don't get why it's so complicated. Feedback is welcome.
The scenario is:
You don't want to accept a challenge because your Nob is up against a character that the Nob probably wont beat, who may kill the Nob in the process? Right?
All this talk of working the rules to be out of "engagement" to try and avoid the challenge is moot.
The reason is, if your Nob is challenged, you can just refuse it.
Sure, you don't get to attack that round, but if you went to all the trouble to try and maneuver out of engagement, just to deny a powerful character the ability to challenge your Nob, then you don't get to attack that round anyway.
Why go to all the hassle, wrestling with Nob placement, when the outcome is exactly the same?
Your Nob will either be out of engagement (and not attacking), or denying the challenge (And not attacking).
ninja'ed by madmax...
Am I wrong?
I think the original angst is that people thought when challenge, you'd must choose any character in your unit. At first glance... that's kinda bad for a PK toting Nob in a boyz squad, cause he's hitting last...
However, with careful positioning (not too difficult)... you can place your nob so that it's not engaged on the charge (that is, not in btb or within 2" of your btb engaged models). That way, he CANT accept any challenge. So, when Init step 1 comes, you pile-in 3" and might be able to get your klaws in...
Remember, you can pre-measue, so it shouldn't be that hard (just may take a while to get used to it).
Madmax1 wrote: That seems like a crapload of work, just to keep your nob out of a challenge. Very un-orky. Just accept the challenge like a true Nob, or run away like a weedy git!!!'
when you consider that you normally have spent 51pts in a unit it is totally worth and may be the difference between destroying your opponent unit or not when dealing with pesky marines
Madmax1 wrote: That seems like a crapload of work, just to keep your nob out of a challenge. Very un-orky. Just accept the challenge like a true Nob, or run away like a weedy git!!!'
when you consider that you normally have spent 51pts in a unit it is totally worth and may be the difference between destroying your opponent unit or not when dealing with pesky marines
I honestly think it won't bethat difficult to manage...
Ahhh, Ok. My bad then. I was wondering waht the fuss was about.
So to clarify, this is more or less to get the first round charge in, let the Nob get some PK attacks before the next round of engagement where he wont be able to deny they challenge based on positioning. So, with some careful positioning, you get to use your Nob for the initial charge, but after that it's refuse, or accept.
Mushkilla wrote:You are correct, but one would assume that the term "fighter ace" implies that he is good at shooting down planes. Those rules were written before 6th ed was released (before flyers existed) and I would assume that they will be updated to include flyers in due course. So far GW has only release "quick fix" FAQs which are badly done to say the least, give it time and it will get fixed.
What I'm saying is that it already is fixed, at least for people willing to shell out $6 and who also own an iPad.
I think it is worth noting that we can no longer claim multiple objectives with he same unit. Using a grot conga line to claim multiple objectives has won me a few games. Given the relatively larger sizes of ork units compared to most other races, I view this is a greater disadvantage for orks (albeit a minor one)
WaaaghGruzkull wrote:I keep reading the challenging rules as it going into an engaged UNIT, the nob itself has to accept it or lose its attacks. He himself doesn't have to be engaged.
I admit I could be missing something but that is my interpatation for far.
To quote the rulebook:
Characters that cannot fight or strike blows (including those that are not engaged with an enemy model) can not accept challenges.
And furthermore...
If you refuse, your opponent gets to nominate one of your characters from those who could have accepted. The chosen model cannot strike blows at all this turn
As such, if the Nob is not engaged, he can not accept. If he could not accept, he is not able to be targeted by the penalty for refusing a challenge.
Since challenges are issued at the start of the assault, the Nob can then wait until his initiative step to move in, and make his attacks.
Edit: Erp, ninja'd. Several times I REALLY need to double check if the page I'm reading is the last one or not >_>
This list ran "ok". The Burnas and meks stuck to the Kans to get repair rolls as we moved forward. These groups received a lot of fire as we moved up. There was some serious attempts to bring em down. Lots of fire directed at the near useless Burna units, to get at the Meks. Blasts were especially bad, as they remove models from the blast. So, back armor on the Kans, Meks getting hit and taken out. Characters sniping Meks, etc.
Got some repairs on the Kans, but with only 2 hull points, they go down faster than they can be repaired. About half my Kans made it to the gun line, and then the grenades started. Kans survived, but mostly by luck.
I'm currently giving the Kans with Meks tactic a C+, as they are not nearly as survivable as they once were, and take a crap ton of extra units to keep them going.
On the plus side, they did soak up a ton of fire that kept my boyz free to shoot, shoot, shoot, shoot, and then finally assault.
Boyz won the game. The Kans just intimidated my opponent in to ignoring them long enough to get in range.
As an aside, Footslogging in the new deployment types is horrible. You walk FOREVER before you are in range.
Now to move on to a totally different topic, what are everyone's thoughts on the KFF Big Mek. In 5th, it was pretty much mandatory if you were running a Kan Wall or a BW spam type army. But now that the cover save has been nerfed to 5+ for vehicles, do think it's still crucial? I've been considering running a BW/Biker Nob list that has a Biker Boss and a Mega-Armour Boss in a trukk (with some Meganobz) as my HQs. Obviously, if I'm under 2000 pts, there's no room for a KFF Big Mek as well. So, what do you think? Do you think that it will work without a KFF? How important is the KFF now?
I made a phone call to GW, on the subject of some Ork vehicle upgrades (boarding plank, grabbin' klaw, and wreckin' ball) and their effects on flyers.
Boarding Plank - Can't be used against flyers. (Rather Obvious)
Wreckin' Ball - Can't be used against them, because flyers can't be assaulted.
Grabbin' Klaw - The guy wasn't sure. Basically, he said that they say no to it having an effect on flyers when they play, but that "forge your own narrative" could let you do it.
Madmax1 wrote:Now to move on to a totally different topic, what are everyone's thoughts on the KFF Big Mek. In 5th, it was pretty much mandatory if you were running a Kan Wall or a BW spam type army. But now that the cover save has been nerfed to 5+ for vehicles, do think it's still crucial? I've been considering running a BW/Biker Nob list that has a Biker Boss and a Mega-Armour Boss in a trukk (with some Meganobz) as my HQs. Obviously, if I'm under 2000 pts, there's no room for a KFF Big Mek as well. So, what do you think? Do you think that it will work without a KFF? How important is the KFF now?
I'll still take one a 5+ cover save is still better than our 6+ armor save that almost everything ignores. and Any save made against a vehicle or kan usually makes up for the points spent on the KFF.
I still think it's a great piece of kit. The fact that it's not a no brainer can only be a good thing for the health of the game as a whole.
Footsloggers still get the same save they did before, unless you were running them through terrain.
Arguably they were too strong with regards to vehicles in 5th, a 4+ save against ranged attacks is an eye-watering level of defence, doubling the survivability. 5+ is much more reasonable.
Well, htat sucks about the wrekin' ball. but the grabin' klaw says all vehicles (it could effect skimmers)
so unless it get's updated, then you can. As you don't assault the flyer to use it.
And don't listen to the GW guy, they haven't done anything about it so you can do it.
I mean, in 5th you could use them aganst skimmers, even if those said skimmers where planes
I don't see anything at the moment that will stop the grabbin claw from working against a flyer with the exception that it might be hard to get it within 2" for it to actually work.
As for the Big Mek. I loves me a KKF but, since I've added two dakkajets to my list, he got changed out for a warp head wierd boy just for the chance to get another Waagh! or two.
I've got to keep the warboss only because having the nob bikers be scoring is just too useful.
Regarding the Grabbin' Klaw upgrade against flyers, if they work against flyers is that it would kill the vehicle outright unless it had a hover mode. This is due to the flyer rule that states that any flyer that cannot move at least 18" in one turn crashes.
Having said that though, I don't think they should be useable because it is a "modified" close combat attack in my mind.
So.. we came across something rather fun and Orky to do with fliers.
Fliers automatically crash if they move less than 18", so you can move it anywhere 1"-17" and finish the move over an enemy unit, to automatically crash on top of them. Seems legit for orks
Dribble Joy wrote:Fliers in Zoom mode are not skimmers, only if they Hover (and not all can); in which case they become Fast Skimmers.
This is obviously the a case of "Written before fliers existed" Meaning this is a RAI deal, OBVIOUSLY the fighta ace is meant to shoot at fliers, because it was used that way before fliers was invented. Please, PLEASE dont become another GWAR!
Hetelic wrote:So.. we came across something rather fun and Orky to do with fliers.
Fliers automatically crash if they move less than 18", so you can move it anywhere 1"-17" and finish the move over an enemy unit, to automatically crash on top of them. Seems legit for orks
I don't think you can purposely move less than 18" while zooming. It would seem really beardy to choose to crash your model.
KingCracker wrote:This is obviously the a case of "Written before fliers existed" Meaning this is a RAI deal, OBVIOUSLY the fighta ace is meant to shoot at fliers, because it was used that way before fliers was invented. Please, PLEASE dont become another GWAR!
I'm sure it will be FAQed at some point, but in the mean time fliers are rather notable in their absence from the Fighta Ace rules.
UrgThraka wrote:Regarding the Grabbin' Klaw upgrade against flyers, if they work against flyers is that it would kill the vehicle outright unless it had a hover mode. This is due to the flyer rule that states that any flyer that cannot move at least 18" in one turn crashes.
Having said that though, I don't think they should be useable because it is a "modified" close combat attack in my mind.
I don't have to rulebook yet, but even if you did grab a plane with the Klaw, can your opponent just switch to hover mode? Or is that mode only for skimmers?
Also, the Wrekkin' Ball doesn't say anything about having to "Assault" the unit it's used against. It's simply done in the Assault Phase, as opposed to one of the two phases where you move. So if you manage to park near enough to a Flyer, you can smack it about on a 4+.
Then again, I made my own Wrekkin' Ball, because the whole '2" of the ball" thing just doesn't work on Battlewagons with the one you get from the Trukk.
UrgThraka wrote:Regarding the Grabbin' Klaw upgrade against flyers, if they work against flyers is that it would kill the vehicle outright unless it had a hover mode. This is due to the flyer rule that states that any flyer that cannot move at least 18" in one turn crashes.
Having said that though, I don't think they should be useable because it is a "modified" close combat attack in my mind.
I don't have to rulebook yet, but even if you did grab a plane with the Klaw, can your opponent just switch to hover mode? Or is that mode only for skimmers?
IIRC, only stormtalons and stormravens can do that. Otherwise...BOOOOM!
5.) Nob Bikerz are seeing very favorable reviews for new toughness rules, Look out sir, and Thunder Hammer.
Had a few questions about some very basic things with speed freak biker boyz and was hoping for a few lessons
So I have been reading the profiles and found this statement of yours from the front page confusing and am pretty convinced I must be missing something about the basic rules of bikers even though i am reading this word for word. What do you mean Thunder Hammer? Are you referring to the weapon no longer auto-killing nobs due to a natural toughness 5 and warboss toughness 6 or is this a obscure special rule i am not familar with like Look out Sir?
also I would like to ask someone help me clarify a disturbing bit of information I found about bikes in general on the BRB page 45.
It says in bikes and Terrain:
"Bikes are never slowed by difficult terrain. However, they treat all difficult terrain as dangerous."
But later in the Assault section (the one i was most interested in)
"Bike charge moves are not slowed by difficult terrain. However each bike or jet-bike model that charges an enemy model behind a barricade or aegis defense line, must take a dangerous terrain test"
This is strangely worded to me it almost sounds like that in the movment phase i am more restricted by terrian with my bikers than I would be during the assualt charging phase. is the Terrian section final on this subject or can my bikers avoid dangerous terrain tests while charging in but are just worried about it after they need to leave it? Normally in the old edition it didn't matter.
I read it as bikes aren't slowed by difficult terrain in both movement and assault like other units are slowed but bikes take DTTs and take a wound if they fail. This includes barricades or the Aegis line as a DTT terrain. It is, after all, a tall wall that puny 'Umies hide behind.
mrwhoop wrote:I read it as bikes aren't slowed by difficult terrain in both movement and assault like other units are slowed but bikes take DTTs and take a wound if they fail. This includes barricades or the Aegis line as a DTT terrain. It is, after all, a tall wall that puny 'Umies hide behind.
this was more or less my understanding but with so many detail oriented rules in this edition i wanted clarification
Madmax1 wrote:Now to move on to a totally different topic, what are everyone's thoughts on the KFF Big Mek. In 5th, it was pretty much mandatory if you were running a Kan Wall or a BW spam type army. But now that the cover save has been nerfed to 5+ for vehicles, do think it's still crucial? I've been considering running a BW/Biker Nob list that has a Biker Boss and a Mega-Armour Boss in a trukk (with some Meganobz) as my HQs. Obviously, if I'm under 2000 pts, there's no room for a KFF Big Mek as well. So, what do you think? Do you think that it will work without a KFF? How important is the KFF now?
Keep in mind that people can focus fire your boyz now if you try to use regular cover. You'll always have a hand full of boyz out of cover, so they can just gun you down without cover saven and any big drawbacks on their side. A KFF give 5+ cover to the entire unit, making focus fire close to useless.
UrgThraka wrote:Regarding the Grabbin' Klaw upgrade against flyers, if they work against flyers is that it would kill the vehicle outright unless it had a hover mode. This is due to the flyer rule that states that any flyer that cannot move at least 18" in one turn crashes.
Having said that though, I don't think they should be useable because it is a "modified" close combat attack in my mind.
Nah, it's about as much a "modified close combat attack" as a stikkbomb. Considering that your battlewagon has to be right underneath a flier to make it work. it even seems perfectly fluffy to me.
"Grab dat bommer!"
*deafening explosion*
"Gotcha!"
Mushkilla wrote:You are correct, but one would assume that the term "fighter ace" implies that he is good at shooting down planes. Those rules were written before 6th ed was released (before flyers existed) and I would assume that they will be updated to include flyers in due course. So far GW has only release "quick fix" FAQs which are badly done to say the least, give it time and it will get fixed.
What I'm saying is that it already is fixed, at least for people willing to shell out $6 and who also own an iPad.
Sorry I had a reading comprehension fail!
Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:5.) Nob Bikerz are seeing very favorable reviews for new toughness rules, Look out sir, and Thunder Hammer.
I believe that's supposed to be "hammer of wrath" instead of "Thunder Hammer".
I was thinking of trying a wazdakka list with smaller bike squads to harass/claim objectives cause that 10 points for a nob is actually not a bad increase in efficiency at this price. A Squad of 6ish nob bikers to be the hammer and then work in some necron allies for anti tank(thinking veiling immortal gauss squad with zahndrek as well as a lone pulse cryptek, with some heavy destroyers). A solar pulse for one turn combined with a KFF will really improve the survivability of our vehicles. Either a 3+ or a 4+ on the first turn would be huge.
I was also considering running no allies and getting a unit of stormboyz with zagstruk, or even without zagstruk and running them along the table.
I was just sitting here thinking about the Challenge rules and how a nob can avoid accepting a challenge. While I agree it is possible to do so i think it is harder than was previously mentioned and here is why.
Let's say you move within 6" to declare you charge. Your nob is left at the 13" mark to completely avoid making it to CC this turn.
If you roll a 6" charge, then your nob is out at 7" and after the 3" fall in at the init 1 step he still can't attack.
If you roll a 10"+ charge your nob is engaged and has to accept the challenge or skip combat.
Basically, there is a very narrow window for avoiding the assault and still making it into CC.
Madmax1 wrote:Now to move on to a totally different topic, what are everyone's thoughts on the KFF Big Mek. In 5th, it was pretty much mandatory if you were running a Kan Wall or a BW spam type army. But now that the cover save has been nerfed to 5+ for vehicles, do think it's still crucial? I've been considering running a BW/Biker Nob list that has a Biker Boss and a Mega-Armour Boss in a trukk (with some Meganobz) as my HQs. Obviously, if I'm under 2000 pts, there's no room for a KFF Big Mek as well. So, what do you think? Do you think that it will work without a KFF? How important is the KFF now?
Keep in mind that people can focus fire your boyz now if you try to use regular cover. You'll always have a hand full of boyz out of cover, so they can just gun you down without cover saven and any big drawbacks on their side. A KFF give 5+ cover to the entire unit, making focus fire close to useless.
UrgThraka wrote:Regarding the Grabbin' Klaw upgrade against flyers, if they work against flyers is that it would kill the vehicle outright unless it had a hover mode. This is due to the flyer rule that states that any flyer that cannot move at least 18" in one turn crashes.
Having said that though, I don't think they should be useable because it is a "modified" close combat attack in my mind.
Nah, it's about as much a "modified close combat attack" as a stikkbomb. Considering that your battlewagon has to be right underneath a flier to make it work. it even seems perfectly fluffy to me.
"Grab dat bommer!"
*deafening explosion*
"Gotcha!"
Would you measure to the hull for the Klaw, to the base, or either one?
Rules say klaw. Unless you have the German Codex:Orks, then hull
Besides, something awesome I just realized: The Quad-Gun that comes with the Aegis Defense Line fits on the turret-mount of the battlewagon. Awesome conversions for dakkaweagons incoming!
Jidmah wrote:Rules say klaw. Unless you have the German Codex:Orks, then hull
Besides, something awesome I just realized: The Quad-Gun that comes with the Aegis Defense Line fits on the turret-mount of the battlewagon. Awesome conversions for dakkaweagons incoming!
Sorry I meant what do you measure to on the opponents flyer (hull/base/either)?
Jidmah wrote:Rules say klaw. Unless you have the German Codex:Orks, then hull
Besides, something awesome I just realized: The Quad-Gun that comes with the Aegis Defense Line fits on the turret-mount of the battlewagon. Awesome conversions for dakkaweagons incoming!
Smasher wrote:Can we get opinions tactics on ork psychics?
Right now with my Green Tide I've been experimenting with running a Warphead to attempt to get more Waagh!s for my 3 dakkajets, but have only gotten lucky with the dice twice so far. Beyond that I got a lucky teleport with a 30 strong mob of sluggas, and a few dead friendly ork for the giggles.
The ability to re-roll that Run early on like on turn 1 is nice and the Warphead runs cheap so that means more lootas!
kowbasher wrote:Swore that was always the normalish price, but yea so much for a new plastic meganobz and big gunz kit eh?
In the short-term yes. There is still reasonable scope for a meganob plastic set for the next codex.
At least it means that we have the TL-shoota variant back, which had been missing from stores/online for a good while.
KingCracker wrote:This is obviously the a case of "Written before fliers existed" Meaning this is a RAI deal, OBVIOUSLY the fighta ace is meant to shoot at fliers, because it was used that way before fliers was invented. Please, PLEASE dont become another GWAR!
I'm sure it will be FAQed at some point, but in the mean time fliers are rather notable in their absence from the Fighta Ace rules.
So then the Fighta Ace upgrade is suppose to do what exactly? According to your rules lawyering, absolutely nothing, which is just stupid TBH. The Fighta Ace is meant for downing fliers. Period. RAI once again. I think youll just end up making enemies trying to pull that argument on people.
I've always wanted to start an Ork army, and I think I may finally take the plunge and join the WAAAAGH! I've read through this thread trying to glean some knowledge for 6th ed. Anybody have any stories regarding a nob biker army? They look strong on paper with LOS shenanigans and being actual T5 now, but I'd like to hear any more thoughts on the matter.
I've been thinking of running a 1000pts biker list, like this;
Warboss - Warbike, Cybork Body, Power Klaw/135pts
Warboss - Warbike, Cybork Body, Power Klaw/135pts
Nobz Bikerz (4) - 2x Power Klaw, 1x Big Choppa, Bosspole, Waaagh! Banner, Painboy, Cybork Bodies/305pts
Nobz Bikerz (4) - 2x Power Klaw, 1x Big Choppa, Bosspole, Waaagh! Banner, Painboy, Cybork Bodies/305pts
Dakkajet - 3x SupaShoota/120pts
Small, easy to carry around, low initial investment, and plays vastly different than my IG army, which is what I'm going for.
Running this list for more intro games of 6th.
Boyz in wagons attached to HQs. Hail of fire as we cross the board. Soften em up with 18" boyz fire. Biker Boss LOSing behind BWs till they close the gap. End the game with charges.
Any suggestions?
HQ Warboss on Bike w/ PK, Cybork
Big Mek w/ KFF 220
Elite
5x Lootas
5x Lootas
150
Troops
19x Shoota Boyz - Nob w/ PK, BP 19x Shoota Boyz - Nob w/ PK, BP 308
I've always wanted to start an Ork army, and I think I may finally take the plunge and join the WAAAAGH! I've read through this thread trying to glean some knowledge for 6th ed. Anybody have any stories regarding a nob biker army? They look strong on paper with LOS shenanigans and being actual T5 now, but I'd like to hear any more thoughts on the matter.
I've been thinking of running a 1000pts biker list, like this;
Warboss - Warbike, Cybork Body, Power Klaw/135pts
Warboss - Warbike, Cybork Body, Power Klaw/135pts
Nobz Bikerz (4) - 2x Power Klaw, 1x Big Choppa, Bosspole, Waaagh! Banner, Painboy, Cybork Bodies/305pts
Nobz Bikerz (4) - 2x Power Klaw, 1x Big Choppa, Bosspole, Waaagh! Banner, Painboy, Cybork Bodies/305pts
Dakkajet - 3x SupaShoota/120pts
Small, easy to carry around, low initial investment, and plays vastly different than my IG army, which is what I'm going for.
Not positive, as I haven't run a biker heavy list yet, but it might be, based on what I see there, that 1k is too low of a point value to properly do Nob Bikers.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
kenshin620 wrote:
kowbasher wrote:
Dr. What wrote:I believe all Ork players were just kicked wherever they would feel the most pain.
FInecast.
$22 Meganobs!?!?!
$45 ($20 increase) Kommandos!?!?!
Swore that was always the normalish price, but yea so much for a new plastic meganobz and big gunz kit eh?
Plastic MANz are rumored for the 2013 wave along with the FA stuff
Does anyone have a link to the Ork wave rumor? I'd like to read it.
Dr. What wrote:I believe all Ork players were just kicked wherever they would feel the most pain.
FInecast.
$22 Meganobs!?!?!
$45 ($20 increase) Kommandos!?!?!
Ya meganobs were always to expensive around 20 each for the metal so 200 bucks to make a 10 man squad. Hence my megnobs are just terminator bodies with ork arms legs and heads with the shoulder armor and powerclaws I actually like how they look that way anyways.
KingCracker wrote:So then the Fighta Ace upgrade is suppose to do what exactly?
Erm... what it says? Strafing run does not assist against jetbikes and skimmers. Fighta Ace counters this.
According to your rules lawyering
Rules Lawyering? The rules specifically state what types of unit are and are not affected by the rule. Fliers are not included.
Wreckin' Balls, Boarding Planks and Grabing Klaws affecting Fliers is rules lawyering.
Crowe's close combat attacks Rend on a 4+, Cleansing Flame wounds are classed as close combat attacks: if Crowe casts Cleansing Flame all the Cleansing Flame wounds Rend. That's rules lawyering.
The Fighta Ace is meant for downing fliers. Period. RAI once again.
Except that there in nothing in the rules that alludes to this.RAI is where the intention is clear but the wording is vague. The ruling by the FAQ is not vague in the slightest, it simply does not mention fliers at all.
I think youll just end up making enemies trying to pull that argument on people.
What argument? That I should be able to do something 'because I should' regardless of the fact that the rule(s) simply do not allow it?
Fine, the charge of a mob of meganobs is described as unstoppable. This doesn't mean I try to claim that they should gain Hammer of Wrath when they charge or any similar benefit to suit their supposed ability to steamroller an opponent.
Waaagh grants you Fleet of Foot for the round it's called : PG 31 Ork codex - Ork Special Rules.
Ghazzy also gets an armour buff
With fleet no longer allowing you to assault afterwards, it rather takes away from WAAAGH,as you won't be in combat at the end of the round you run at the enemy screaming it, which is kind of the point Very un-orky
Automatically Appended Next Post: Orks got left out of the new Psyker goodness, as we have our own powers.
Ascalam wrote:Waaagh grants you Fleet of Foot for the round it's called : PG 31 Ork codex - Ork Special Rules.
Ghazzy also gets an armour buff
With fleet no longer allowing you to assault afterwards, it rather takes away from WAAAGH,as you won't be in combat at the end of the round you run at the enemy screaming it, which is kind of the point Very un-orky
Automatically Appended Next Post: Orks got left out of the new Psyker goodness, as we have our own powers.
Not sure on the Warlord stuff.
Ohhhh-okay derp! now i remember reading that in our old codex i thought it was address as something else enitrely for some strange reason. I dunno it's really hard to read this Faq OR ANYTHING in 6th for some reason for me. thanks for clearing that up. figured we did but also figured I'd ask again to be on the safe side
Dr. What wrote:I believe all Ork players were just kicked wherever they would feel the most pain.
FInecast.
$22 Meganobs!?!?!
$45 ($20 increase) Kommandos!?!?!
Swore that was always the normalish price, but yea so much for a new plastic meganobz and big gunz kit eh?
I have a theory about this: So, something nobody really thinks about is the time and money it takes to design new models and create the infrastructure to mass produce, market (don't laugh, it happens, a little.) and distribute them. Also, there's a lot of differences between Metal and Plastic in the terms of material flow, bubble formation, and even mold material. Games Workshop probably starts the design process for every sprue months or even years in advance, and it probably takes a few months just to create the molds (from outsourced manufacturing or in-house production).
So, what happens when the company suddenly gets a "New Direction" and an Executive edict to go 'metalless', but you have dozens of popular old metal molds that don't have any plastic replacements ready yet- as well as newly made metal molds, which you've already invested hundreds of dollars in, but aren't allowed to use metal in them? You can't just start injecting plastic into them, it has the wrong properties- a Resin is better, but most Resins aren't going to work well or run through the molds as well either. So GW develops or has developed for them a custom resin that will mimic the mold properties of white metal, so they can use it for a while until they've 'cycled through' their line and created new plastics for all of the units.
Basically, Finecast is nothing more than a stopgap. How many Finecast models don't have a Metal counterpart, and what's the timeframe of their release? I think the whole Finecast thing is just GW running into the problem of Executive Timeframe vs Actual Timeframe.
I can't see them dropping resin in favour of an all plastic model range. Resin casts produce better detailing and avoid the problems that comes from the nature of the moulds use in making the plastics. Plastic moulds are also incredibly expensive to create (though cheaper to run) so there has to be the demand in order to warrant the initial outlay. There's no business sense in making a Slyth plastic set for example.
I disagree on Resin (the Finecast one) producing more detailed results. I have all but given up on finding a decent Finecast KFF Mek, and I've checked blisters at 6 GW stores already. If anything, they lose detail compared to the metal one I own, similar problems can be observed on finecast tanbustaz vs metal ones. I'm not happy with finecast, but for that kind of money I should be. Right now, I'm scouring ebay for metal models rather than buying finecast, and I wasn't biased towards at all when it came out. I'm simply not willing to buy a product that has a high probability of being flawed, especially if they sell two other products(plastic&metal) which I never had any problems with at all.
I don't think the demand vs investment argument is that strong. Nothing prevents them from, for example, putting three sprues of tactical marines and one sprue of maegnus calgar on the same mold.
Kommandoz were overpriced anyways. There's no way, I'm going to pay 35€ for four fancy boyz. "Luckily" GW nerfed then to the ground.
Jidmah wrote:I disagree on Resin (the Finecast one) producing more detailed results
I believe that the claim was about resin in general not the finecast one. There are really good resins that have better detail than plastic or metal. But there are also really nasty quality ones. The point is that the whole line will never be converted to plastic because it is simply not viable. The rare units will always have to be made in some other material. With the cost of the metal going up GW wanted to save money by swapping to resin, but that would mean redesign the casts and or some of the miniatures, which could be even more expensive. That was the reason they developed finecast so they could use the same molds they were already used for metal.
But anyhoo remember this is ork tactics thread and that we don't need another finecast hate thread.
FINALLY getting to play 6th for the first time on Sunday. Bout friggin time. Also my son and I played a 650pts game last night, and I used the rules from 6th I could remember well enough, and so tried out my bikerboss w/5koptas and a buzzsaw. It was pretty effective on the table. The shooting was devastating, and they were tough as nails against normal troops. My son even charged with a chaos dread, and my boss only took 1 wound and proceeded to hand the dread its ass on a silver plate. I wouldnt recommend just letting a dread attack your boss, but it is nice not dying to ID as he would have in 5th.
Also, I tried a nob with just a bigshoota in my mobs, not sure about it yet. Part of me still wants the PK in there, I guess I have to play more to see whats what.
KingCracker wrote: I wouldnt recommend just letting a dread attack your boss, but it is nice not dying to ID as he would have in 5th.
Not only that but you get a 5+ FNP against S10 if they're in a Biker Nob squad. Which if you think about it is pretty rad, and same thing for your Nob Bikers against anything S8.
I have actually preferred finecast *dodges rocks*. Metal is so annoying to work with and convert. Although it took awhile before anything was bad enough to call in(I REALLY wanted a second obyron) I got a free white scars and iron hands kits. Totally worth the money before hand and even better now. I have enough parts to make my non iron hands guys have tech parts.
Back to orks, I am trying to design a nob biker unit. I was it to have 6 members and was thinking something like this.
Painboy
1x nob with power claw and combi scorcha
1x nob with waaaggghhh banner
1x nob
2x nob with big choppa
Is cybork body worth it on these guys?
This is accompanied by a warboss with bike, cybork, and claw.
Thats 486 points without the cybork on the nobs
I was also thinking of taking as allies for my necrons
Wazdakka
3x bikes, nob with big choppas
7x bikes nob with big choppa
460 points. It really adds some durable scoring as well as solid CC power to my list
Trying out 6th soon enough in an escalation league and this seemed like the most viable tactic for them at this time since it is only 500 pts. I am a big nervous about my number or orks and think i should maybe run something else so any suggestions for a very low starting point is very welcome indeed. I obviously took the warboss for his incredible toughness and I felt the kombi-skorcha might be a good choice. The nobs i was tempted to not take them as the suggestion but since i wasn't able to max out squads felt the bosspoles might be needed. since i did have some points left over i decided to make them tougher with eavy armor and throw in big choppa and big shoota for good measure. could you foresee any problems based on this set up? or again suggestions to improve it?
Depends. In shooting it would confer no benefit, and likewise against anything in CC that was not a Power Weapon. It is a considerable amount of points...30 points for a 6 man unit, of course.
In CC, you will get your Feel No Pain 5+ save against everything, including Thunder Hammers, and you will never be instant death'ed by anything, so you are afforded some measure of protection regardless.
However, if you are spending 400 points on a unit that specializes in close combat, which will presumably be thrusting into close combat with the likes of Terminators, Grey Knights, Monstrous Creatures, and Dreadnoughts...wouldn't you prefer to have a 5+ invulnerable save?
If you didn't buy Cybork, I would contend that it would considerably reduce the tactical flexibility of the Nobs, albeit, at the same time, they would still be an incredibly powerful unit capable of successful assaults against all kinds of units.
I have always been a big fan of artillery - just the Kannons though. Zzap guns and Lobbas just don't do it for me. It's funny to watch MEQ take the Str 8 AP 3 to the face at BS3.
And now with the changes making them basically 2W T7 creatures, I like them more. It's just that Loota's will fill this roll better now with the changes to the Glancing hits. Still, at 80pts or so, they're hard to pass up. And you can buy wounds at 3pts each? Good times.
TedNugent wrote:never be instant death'ed by anything, so you are afforded some measure of protection regardless.
Aside from DCCWs and stuff like Lysander. But yes.
I wonder though whether nob bikers are our ideal choice for taking on close combat units. I'd say our anti-deathstar unit is now meganobs (though the bikers are better at taking on the PF armed opponents).
I thought with the price increase we'd see better deals for Big Guns - at $30 maybe get 3 in the pack like killa kans. But alas, it's still just one freaking weapon team.
And it's not even 1 team with 3 different options. You are just buying the specific team! Very stupid. The Empire idea is actually pretty good as it does come with different options.
But, back OT.
I used Nob bikers exclusively through 5th ed. 2 Warboss, 2 Squads wreck face. Nothing about that has changed. And we're "saving" points now by not having to add additional crap to make them each different.
Hitting 80% of things on 3's, Wounding on 2's, no save. Even better since there's no instagib - the warboss is freaking amazing.
I think until we get nerfed by a new non-Ward codex, Orks are the premiere army.
KingCracker wrote:This is obviously the a case of "Written before fliers existed" Meaning this is a RAI deal, OBVIOUSLY the fighta ace is meant to shoot at fliers, because it was used that way before fliers was invented. Please, PLEASE dont become another GWAR!
I'm sure it will be FAQed at some point, but in the mean time fliers are rather notable in their absence from the Fighta Ace rules.
So then the Fighta Ace upgrade is suppose to do what exactly? According to your rules lawyering, absolutely nothing, which is just stupid TBH. The Fighta Ace is meant for downing fliers. Period. RAI once again. I think youll just end up making enemies trying to pull that argument on people.
If' we're going off of pure RAW, the Dakkajet hits flyers on BS3. Because the entry states "When shooting at etc etc etc and vehicles without the skimmer type, the Dakkajet has +1 BS.
That includes flyers.
Dakkajet Fighta Ace just adds +1 BS to skimmers and such. I am inclined to think that they MEANT for that to apply to flyers, but atm it is the exact opposite.
In other words, the Dakkajet hits flyers at BS3 regardless of whether or not it has a Fighta Ace upgrade.
First GT result I've seen after 6. I'm fairly convinced Orks are the strongest army right now, with the possible exception of Necrons. My biggest surprised in the results is that there is only one necron player?
Can you fire overwatch with only some members of the squad? Because then you could estimate the number of casualties you might take from people attacking at a higher initative, then only overwatch with them, and keep power weapons on the ones that should be alive.
Fxeni wrote:If' we're going off of pure RAW, the Dakkajet hits flyers on BS3. Because the entry states "When shooting at etc etc etc and vehicles without the skimmer type, the Dakkajet has +1 BS.
That includes flyers.
Dakkajet Fighta Ace just adds +1 BS to skimmers and such. I am inclined to think that they MEANT for that to apply to flyers, but atm it is the exact opposite.
In other words, the Dakkajet hits flyers at BS3 regardless of whether or not it has a Fighta Ace upgrade.
The FAQ got rid of most of the Dakkajets rules and replaced them with Strafing Run, I'm unsure of the exact ruling, but I don't think it includes Fliers (though I could be wrong). Fighta Ace only specifies skimmers and jetbikes (?).
If Strafing Run allows +1 vs Fliers, then Fighta Ace is largely redundant.
Dr. What wrote:But by using burnaz as flamers, wouldn't they lose power weapon status?
Yes, though it's not like anyone used them as such; the volume of fire from a burna unit caused so many wounds that it was invariably a better option than charging with power weapons.
First GT result I've seen after 6. I'm fairly convinced Orks are the strongest army right now, with the possible exception of Necrons. My biggest surprised in the results is that there is only one necron player?
I'm pretty impressed with the number of ork players there, even more surprised that most of them used battle wagon lists. I'm curious to know if they ran mek boyz and lootas to keep them running.
The one thing that gets way too little attention imo is the fearless wounds. If anything, that feels like the biggest change to horde armies. I played three competitive games against Orks the past year and I didn't lose any of them. That's PURELY because the sum of fearless wounds throughout an entire game put me over the hump. I'm fairly certain I'll get destroyed by Orks in this codex, mainly due to that (there are other things too, but fearless wounds really is a gigantic game changer).
1) Were Big Choppas turned to Power Axes? (I don't have my rulebook yet, it's coming next week, but there was nothing on it in the FAQ.)
2) I feel Trukk Boyz are still viable. Here's how:
2A) Take a mob of 12 Slugga Boyz.:
2B) Give them a Trukk with a Reinforced Ram (maybe a Grabbin' Klaw, now that they're awesome anti-flyer)
2C) Upgrade 1 Ork Boy in that squad of 12 to a Nob.
2D) Give that Nob 'Eavy Armor and (possibly, this depends on the answer to my first question) a Big Choppa.
2E) Run said boyz straight up the board. You will not fear difficult terrain (Reinforced Ram), but you must utilize the terrain very carefully, as this is now a glass kannon list.
2F) Disembark on turn 2, as you will probably be in the face of the enemy. Make sure the Nob is in front.
2G) Charge with said Nob in the Front.
2H) All overwatch shots will go to the Nob first. Use his 'Eavy Armor and Look Out Sir! to soak up those few 6's you'll actually see that do damage (Overwatch isn't really OP!).
2I) Have the Nob challenge the opposing squad leader (if there is one). This is very important (especially if Question 1 is answered with a reply that Big Choppas aren't I1) because:
1) It will (whether the challenge is accepted or not) take out a powerful asset (in most cases) from the enemy squad.
2) If the enemy has a powerfist, a Nob with a Big Choppa can statistically kill it and set back the enemy 50 points.
2J) Destroy the rest of the enemy squad (or just tie them up for another turn.)
2K) Copy steps 2A - 2J as many times as possible (at least 4) and run each copy at the same time as the original (It's best to choose different squads for each trukk mob though.)
Notes:
A Big Choppa is much cheaper than a Power Klaw. On the charge, a PK is S9, while a Big Choppa is S7. The loss of ability to deal with AV14 is picked up by Rokkit Koptas and Kannon (not Kilkannon) Battlewagons.
Lootas can be brought in Battlewagons to help increase target saturation and bring more firepower to soften up the enemy.
Each trukk is 3 hull points. It's impossible to sink enough shots to kill 1/2 of the trukks (in 98% of all cases) in 1 turn of shooting. Plus, in my experiences with trukks at least, Ramshackle can actually help you get closer to the enemy (I had one Kareen into the face of a Tau gunline, then the boyz hopped out and krumped da fish'eads.).
Don't forget to tank shock! Once the boyz are out, proceed to harass any enemy unit/vehicle. Tank Shocks can potentially wipe even GK Paladins off the board (Nothing makes you laugh more than a 50 point ramshackle mess destroy a 200 blob of silver elitists).
For an HQ, any of the 3 generic options work. A weirdboy (with warphead upgrade) could help especially if you're running dakkajets (Still risky though). A KFF Mek might not be the best for his cost, seeing as trukks tend not to be stuck together. Warbosses are still plenty deadly (I recommend not adding an 11th boy/nob to the squad he'll join, so that you can save points, PLUS, his Look Out Sir! is a 2+).
If you read through all of that, you're probably not an Ork.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Doh! I forgot stormboyz. They're an option too!
matphat wrote:Sadly, Big Choppas got absolutely no attention, so as far as we know, they are still just plain ol' big choppas.
That's for the better! (And since Codex trumps Rulebook, we can't get TFG'd to I1).
Additional Tactic (I'm crediting it as it should be to Fester from 3++ Is the New Black):
Battlewagon + Deffrolla + Boarding Plank (or Trukk if you're cheap) + 5 Tankbustas (or more if you're rich) + at least 1 Tankhammer = Death to Land Raiders and anything else that rolls/floats and can be assaulted.
Battlewagon + Deffrolla + Boarding Plank (or Trukk if you're cheap) + 5 Tankbustas (or more if you're rich) + at least 1 Tankhammer = Death to Land Raiders and anything else that rolls/floats and can be assaulted.
The problem I see with this is your BW will never survive long enough to take out two vehicles and more than likely not long enough to kill one. This is because your AV12 will be exposed to the enemy after about turn 2. Vehicles in 6E are like tissue paper....all it takes is a strong breeze to tear them up.
Battlewagon + Deffrolla + Boarding Plank (or Trukk if you're cheap) + 5 Tankbustas (or more if you're rich) + at least 1 Tankhammer = Death to Land Raiders and anything else that rolls/floats and can be assaulted.
The problem I see with this is your BW will never survive long enough to take out two vehicles and more than likely not long enough to kill one. This is because your AV12 will be exposed to the enemy after about turn 2. Vehicles in 6E are like tissue paper....all it takes is a strong breeze to tear them up.
This is the first time I've used an analogy on Dakka:
Think of an Ork army as a cupcake. Sweet to have and can kill. How the killing is done is debatable.
My recipe for mechanized death is the actual cake part. Most people focus and spend most time eating this and then have to try to clean up the crumbs.
A Kustom Force Field is like Frosting. It's not always needed but can help to the overall effectiveness in appeal/design/purpose.
BustaWagons are like Sprinkles. They aren't commonly liked, but have a niche.
In other words:
If you don't focus on the trukks, you'll die. Vehicles may be thinner, but a transport's job is to transport.
Zog Off wrote:So the Imperial Armour FAQ's say Codex: Orks and the Dread Mob army lists count as Battle Brothers. Does anybody see any interesting combos there?
Well problem with Dread Mob is that you have to take spanner boyz, who are a tad worse than normal boyz. Still you can fit in some more dread goodness
More analogies GO!...
Instead of sprinkles, think of the BW as a cherry on top (because it's a fair number of your points when properly loaded up) and your opponent is the hungry kid left with the cupcake. The cherry is the first thing to go and it goes fast. The frosting may slow the kid down because the cherry is stuck in it but it won't delay him much. 6e also gave the kid a fork and a sign saying "Eat the cherry first, it's creme-filled and easier than ever to eat".
So, has anyone thought about using a combination of trucks and battlewagons, at least in smaller point games? I know this is far from an optimal setup, but this is something I was thinking of running for the next week or so to get a feel for the new edition. I don't exactly have a ton of ork stuff, in case you couldn't figure that out from the weird hodgepodge of units
Spoiler:
+++ No Name (1000pts) +++ +++ 1000pt Orks 5th Ed (2008) Roster (Standard) +++
UrgThraka wrote:
More analogies GO!...
Instead of sprinkles, think of the BW as a cherry on top (because it's a fair number of your points when properly loaded up) and your opponent is the hungry kid left with the cupcake. The cherry is the first thing to go and it goes fast. The frosting may slow the kid down because the cherry is stuck in it but it won't delay him much. 6e also gave the kid a fork and a sign saying "Eat the cherry first, it's creme-filled and easier than ever to eat".
Sprinkles are often hard and to be a pain to get rid of in your mouth.
And in order to eat the cherry/sprinkles first, the cupcake has to get close to the kid's mouth, where it is too close for the kid to react in some form of defensive manner against the cupcake which is now bashing the kid's face in with a cupcake-of-death equivalent to a big choppa and making the kid fail his leadership test.
UrgThraka wrote:
More analogies GO!...
Instead of sprinkles, think of the BW as a cherry on top (because it's a fair number of your points when properly loaded up) and your opponent is the hungry kid left with the cupcake. The cherry is the first thing to go and it goes fast. The frosting may slow the kid down because the cherry is stuck in it but it won't delay him much. 6e also gave the kid a fork and a sign saying "Eat the cherry first, it's creme-filled and easier than ever to eat".
Sprinkles are often hard and to be a pain to get rid of in your mouth.
And in order to eat the cherry/sprinkles first, the cupcake has to get close to the kid's mouth, where it is too close for the kid to react in some form of defensive manner against the cupcake which is now bashing the kid's face in with a cupcake-of-death equivalent to a big choppa and making the kid fail his leadership test.
UrgThraka wrote:
More analogies GO!...
Instead of sprinkles, think of the BW as a cherry on top (because it's a fair number of your points when properly loaded up) and your opponent is the hungry kid left with the cupcake. The cherry is the first thing to go and it goes fast. The frosting may slow the kid down because the cherry is stuck in it but it won't delay him much. 6e also gave the kid a fork and a sign saying "Eat the cherry first, it's creme-filled and easier than ever to eat".
Sprinkles are often hard and to be a pain to get rid of in your mouth.
And in order to eat the cherry/sprinkles first, the cupcake has to get close to the kid's mouth, where it is too close for the kid to react in some form of defensive manner against the cupcake which is now bashing the kid's face in with a cupcake-of-death equivalent to a big choppa and making the kid fail his leadership test.
I would counterpropose Orks as a box of sweets
The Battlewagon would be the Spring Surprise
An explosion of metal bits? Sounds more like a trukk...
And I suppose that Snikrot and Kommandos are now that machine that goes "PING!"? (Rather useless and just with the rest for aesthetics)
Dr. What wrote:I have 2 things to say in this post:
1) Were Big Choppas turned to Power Axes? (I don't have my rulebook yet, it's coming next week, but there was nothing on it in the FAQ.)
big choppas were never power weapons only added +2 str.
Small history lesson. When 3rd edition first was released it had all the armies and their weapon stats in the back of the book. At that time Ork Big Choppas were power weapons. Then shortly after its release the Orks got a codex and the power weapon went away.
Just some worthless trivia. But at one time, short though it may have been, Orks did have access to power weapons.
Yea but the standard ork had choppas that made the best save possible against it a 4+ so take what you will. For the melta we just have volume of fire weapons
So now I am stuck between meganobz in a battlewagon, or nob bikers
Bikers
+1 toughness
move like bikes
+1 attacks
can get FNP can get Invul
Meganobz
With same weapon is 30 points cheaper each
2+ save
Can ride in a battle wagon
@Dr. What - If the Tau player is worth his salt all of your trukks will be dead by the end of the first turn and you will be foot slogging those boys across the table.
The foot sloggers will get shot at every turn, reducing your forward momentum by as much as 50%, meaning that all of your troops are dead before they reach their first CC.
That is what happened to me when fighting my Tau playing friend (in about 10 6E games so far)
UrgThraka wrote:@Dr. What - If the Tau player is worth his salt all of your trukks will be dead by the end of the first turn and you will be foot slogging those boys across the table.
The foot sloggers will get shot at every turn, reducing your forward momentum by as much as 50%, meaning that all of your troops are dead before they reach their first CC.
That is what happened to me when fighting my Tau playing friend (in about 10 6E games so far)
I believe he's worth his salt. Fortunately, salt =/= XV88. He doesn't have any broadsides. His 1 Hammerhead railgun has only killed 1 thing since it's debut in the 4th edition. We're fairly certain his soldiers were trained on top of an ancient Gue'vesa burial ground.
Leth wrote:Yea but the standard ork had choppas that made the best save possible against it a 4+ so take what you will. For the melta we just have volume of fire weapons
So now I am stuck between meganobz in a battlewagon, or nob bikers
Bikers
+1 toughness
move like bikes
+1 attacks
can get FNP can get Invul
Meganobz
With same weapon is 30 points cheaper each
2+ save
Can ride in a battle wagon
I'm leaning bikers and there is only one reason. With the new deployments, and game types, mobility is more important than ever. Bikers are going to be more resilient to focused fire due to volume, than BWs.
Man, having trouble choosing which planes to build.
The Dakkajet seems to be the best anti-air the Orks have, especially on a turn you Waaagh. In fact, since only Assault weapons are affected by Waaagh Plane, they are the only ones that get use out of it. Points wise, they're cheaper than Lootas for what you're paying for, more efficient than Quad Guns, and are harder to deal with than either. Then again, Bomb Squigs and Grabbin' Claws seem to be a potential viable alternative.
Burna Bombas are fantastic anti-infantry... against anything that doesn't have a majority 3+ save. They will liquefy *any* non space marine list, but space marines are such a massive majority within the playerbase. They are also the most expensive option, being 165pts if you want to toss on 4 skorcha missiles assuming it will last the two turns it will take to fire them.
Blitza-Bommas are also tempting, 5pts more expensive than an upgraded Dakka Jet for two str7 blast that rolls 2D6 for penetration against vehicles. Then again, this is arguably a less lethal asset considering the introduction of hull points. It would be able to finish off target vehicles, but not to take them out in one go. On the other hand, with a str7 blast that only scatters D6", it could be used as a "poor man's Burna Bomba", though I'm unsure the points would be worth it in that case.
I think (and I will predict others will agree) that the Dakka Jet is the best. They're almost like lootas that fly. They can zoom in and dakka the heck out of rear armors, special weapons, etc
Though I think the change of blast weapons does make the blizta a tad more tasty
Problem with Burna Bomba is that anti infantry is a normal orks specialty though. It can barely, if at all, touch armor.
kenshin620 wrote:I think (and I will predict others will agree) that the Dakka Jet is the best. They're almost like lootas that fly. They can zoom in and dakka the heck out of rear armors, special weapons, etc
Though I think the change of blast weapons does make the blizta a tad more tasty
Problem with Burna Bomba is that anti infantry is a normal orks specialty though. It can barely, if at all, touch armor.
While I agree that I'm rather attracted to the Dakka Jet, the restrictions in turning is the problem - getting into rear armour may not be nearly as easy as one may think.
The Burna Bomma provides Orks with LONG ranged anti-infantry. A 24" missile fired from a vehicle moving 36" (60" threat range) is going to reach a lot of itches Orks could never scratch before, particularly compared to the devestation str5, ap4 blasts that ignore cover would wreak. Considering the deployment options (particularly Hammer and Anvil), it becomes even more valuable.
But again, not going to help much against 3+ saves.
Welp, FINALLY got my first game of 6th in today, same with my opponent. He REALLY didnt want to try out the challenges deal, so I said why not and we ignored it. But everything else was fun. It was a 650pt game to basically get the swing of things. It took us awhile, because we would do a little, then rules check and do some more, and then rules check and so on.
Orks
Warboss
bike
PK Cybork
Attack squig
Bosspole
Koptas x5 w/ 1 buzzsaw
Boyz x20
nob
big choppa
bigshoota x2
Boyz exactly the same as above
My opponent had 2 5 man tacticals 5 terminators Sgt had a power maul and lead by Lysander.
I ended up having to leave before we finished the game, sad too because if I could of finished my assault phase, I would of definitely swept the Space Marine player. When I had to leave, I had 2 out of 4 objectives, killed all the terminators and Lysander and shot one of the 5 mans to bits with my boss/koptas (Seriously this unit pisses out bullets, its incredible) and my Boss/koptas were definitely within assault range of the other 5 man, sitting on an objective.
The things that Im really digging this edition, is the change to how charging works, I scored a nice 11 inch charge on my WAAAGH! which was pretty epic I also like how mystery objectives work, and all the random stuff that can happen depending on what game type you pick. From what I read, I dont think Ill really care for challenges, but again, we decided not to try it this time *shrugs* But I can tell ya, I REALLY think I still want a PK in my boyz mob, because there were a couple times I thought "dammit, if only I had pk's!" But that also might change when I find out how challenges work out.
Very fun game though for sure. One of my objectives was a sabotage and blew up something fierce which made me chuckle
I always wanted a weirdboy. What are some pros and cons? Of course he'd have to be warp head, but if he doesn't have mob rule (his squad dies), then his low leadership would make psychic tests a pain. Anything change for them with 6th? (not counting that he cant use the new psychic powers)
ZZAppp especially is a good one, as autohitting long range melta tends to be..
Cons:
Random powers, even with Warphead.
'Ead banger especially
I tend to stick mine with a Tankbusta unit, and gate them around ZZapp and Ere we go! work well with this approach, Frazzle occasionally come in handy, and WAAGH! works out well for the whole army. Warpath is less useful, but can be handy at times. Eadbanger sucks, but doesn't come up that often..
They aren't 'competitive' because you have no idea what they'll do on any given turn, making it hard to strategise around them. They are HILARIOUS though
Bomb Squig wrote:I always wanted a weirdboy. What are some pros and cons? Of course he'd have to be warp head, but if he doesn't have mob rule (his squad dies), then his low leadership would make psychic tests a pain. Anything change for them with 6th? (not counting that he cant use the new psychic powers)
LOL, I just clicked on this thread to bring up Weirdboys. Even if you do get 'Eadbanger, you can Look Out Sir! your troubles away! That, and there is nothing better than free WAAAGH!s for Dakkajets and being able to deepstirke a squad behind enemy lines (you can assault out of these, IIRC).
I've traded out my Big Mek for a Warp Head. Haven't got a chance to play it yet, but I'm looking forward to the much dakka he is going to help give my two dakka jets.
Bomb Squig wrote:I always wanted a weirdboy. What are some pros and cons? Of course he'd have to be warp head, but if he doesn't have mob rule (his squad dies), then his low leadership would make psychic tests a pain. Anything change for them with 6th? (not counting that he cant use the new psychic powers)
LOL, I just clicked on this thread to bring up Weirdboys. Even if you do get 'Eadbanger, you can Look Out Sir! your troubles away! That, and there is nothing better than free WAAAGH!s for Dakkajets and being able to deepstirke a squad behind enemy lines (you can assault out of these, IIRC).
Not seeing how you can assault out of Deepstike for Ere we Go!
You follow the normal deepstrike rules per the wierdboy page, and those don't allow assaults on the turn you Deepstrike.
Bomb Squig wrote:I always wanted a weirdboy. What are some pros and cons? Of course he'd have to be warp head, but if he doesn't have mob rule (his squad dies), then his low leadership would make psychic tests a pain. Anything change for them with 6th? (not counting that he cant use the new psychic powers)
LOL, I just clicked on this thread to bring up Weirdboys. Even if you do get 'Eadbanger, you can Look Out Sir! your troubles away! That, and there is nothing better than free WAAAGH!s for Dakkajets and being able to deepstirke a squad behind enemy lines (you can assault out of these, IIRC).
Not seeing how you can assault out of Deepstike for Ere we Go!
You follow the normal deepstrike rules per the wierdboy page, and those don't allow assaults on the turn you Deepstrike.
*edit for dyslexia*
Woops, I think I got myself confused with Deepstriking and not being allowed to assault when coming in from reserves. Either way, a Weirdboy can do a lot of damage.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Here's another experimental list:
UrgThraka wrote:@Dr. What - If the Tau player is worth his salt all of your trukks will be dead by the end of the first turn and you will be foot slogging those boys across the table.
The foot sloggers will get shot at every turn, reducing your forward momentum by as much as 50%, meaning that all of your troops are dead before they reach their first CC.
That is what happened to me when fighting my Tau playing friend (in about 10 6E games so far)
You should only ever need your trukk for one turn anyway. It's no big loss.
Also, Grey Knights and Orkz make for great bedfellows.
I ran a 2000 point (1 FOC) Ork army with a bikerboss, Nob unit in a trukk, a unit of 10 boyz (just filler), and two 7 man loota units alongside Draigo and a unit of Paladins against a very competent guard player today, and did quite well. There are only a few units on the table, but each one is such a considerable threat, and tends to be so durable, that an opponent will have a very hard time prioritizing their targets.
I know it's been talked about in other places, but redundancy is orks friend. I can see running a list with 3-4 Warpheads in that magic 2k size of games(3 if a mek is mandatory, ~6 dakkajets, ~100 boyz, and some big guns). The list could be tinkered with for Aegis Defense line, and regular grots to lower the boyz and add more dakka.
with 4 wierd boyz and the reroll you should be able to waaagh nearly every turn, and pull enough zzzaps to possibly deal with armor.
smaller games I find that I have currently shelved my kans for now, even though the extended charge range is nice for them.
I feel that my shooty orks are going to get even more shooty.
Fxeni wrote:If' we're going off of pure RAW, the Dakkajet hits flyers on BS3. Because the entry states "When shooting at etc etc etc and vehicles without the skimmer type, the Dakkajet has +1 BS.
That includes flyers.
Dakkajet Fighta Ace just adds +1 BS to skimmers and such. I am inclined to think that they MEANT for that to apply to flyers, but atm it is the exact opposite.
In other words, the Dakkajet hits flyers at BS3 regardless of whether or not it has a Fighta Ace upgrade.
The FAQ got rid of most of the Dakkajets rules and replaced them with Strafing Run, I'm unsure of the exact ruling, but I don't think it includes Fliers (though I could be wrong). Fighta Ace only specifies skimmers and jetbikes (?). If Strafing Run allows +1 vs Fliers, then Fighta Ace is largely redundant.
Dr. What wrote:But by using burnaz as flamers, wouldn't they lose power weapon status?
Yes, though it's not like anyone used them as such; the volume of fire from a burna unit caused so many wounds that it was invariably a better option than charging with power weapons.
Actually, they don't. "Wall of death" simply causes d3 hits to any unit charging a model with template weapon. The apendix names the burna as template weapon. The flamer is not fired (and totally not used in shooting anyways). So you can use them as powerweapon afterwards. Think of the opponent running into the blowtorch.
Dr. What wrote: 2B) Give them a Trukk with a Reinforced Ram (maybe a Grabbin' Klaw, now that they're awesome anti-flyer)
Sadly, trukks can't take grabbin' klaws.
Zog Off wrote:So the Imperial Armour FAQ's say Codex: Orks and the Dread Mob army lists count as Battle Brothers. Does anybody see any interesting combos there?
Lots of stuff. Of course, you have to take the mandatory spanna boyz, but they aren't that bad if you use them as shoota boyz.
Dread Bash: Mekka dread (hq), squad of 3 deff dread (troops), squad of 5 kanz, mega dread (heavy support) Cherry picking: Pain boss, Warkoptas and their ridiculous twin rattlers, lifta weagon
And if you really don't like your opponent: Mekboss Buzzgob riding Da Lugga (Kustom Stompa). Yes, he has a special rule to allow him to ride a stompa in regular games. That's why the IoM sacrificed thousands of guardsmen and a couple hundred of Ravenguard, just in an attempt to kill him.
Bomb Squig wrote:I always wanted a weirdboy. What are some pros and cons? Of course he'd have to be warp head, but if he doesn't have mob rule (his squad dies), then his low leadership would make psychic tests a pain. Anything change for them with 6th? (not counting that he cant use the new psychic powers)
He allows his unit to make 5+ "Deny the witch!" rolls. Quite useful if someone rolled on that fething annoying telepathy table.
So, I finally managed to play two quite large games this weekend, and had some pretty interesting results. Game1 2000 points necrons vs 1000 points orks and 1000 points tzeench Mission was 4 objectives, deployment on small table edges. I played: -HQ- Biker Warboss with all the toys Warphead -Troops- 20 Shootas, Nob, PK, BP, 'eavy armor (Warphead) 20 Sluggas, Nob, PK, BP, 'eavy armor (Warboss) 10 Gretchin + Runherd - Fast Attack - Dakka Jet, extra shoota Skorcha Bommer, four missiles - Fortification - Aegis Defense Line, Quad Gun (Gretchin go here)
I placed one objective in the middle of my defense line, filled with gretchin. Luckily, it didn't explode. Sadly, it didn't do anything else either (rolled a 2). My warboss get's to pick where flanking units come from. Hurray? All other HQs get similarly useless traits. In turn 1 the lights went out (nightfight) until round 4. Didn't do a lot for me, as necrons only shoot 24" anyways. In turn 1 my warphead rolls warpath, sadly the necron scarabs refused to charge them that turn. Quad gun kills three warriors, one gets back up. On the necron's turn, my warboss takes six wounds, four Look out Sir! rolls(2+) are failed, two saves are failed, bringing him down to one wound.
Turn 2 starts with me and my ally failing all six reserve rolls. My warphead perils of the warping himself, quad gun kill another three warriors, they stay down. Warboss detaches charges a full unit of necron warriors. They don't wound him in both overwatch and melee, they lose combat by 5, initiative 4+ sweeps them. First blood! During my opponent#s turn, the warboss takes another single wound, fails to save, dies - to a total of seven successful wounds. Necron Lord on command barge comes in from the flank, quad gun shoots interceptor fire at him and takes two hull points off the barge. A lot of boyz are shot dead by destroyers and a monolith.
Turn 3, my skorcha bommer comes in! It starts carpet-bombing necrons right away, killing 11 warriors in one go. Four get back up. My shoota boyz get ready to shoot and charge scarabs getting close to my ally's soul grinder. Warphead rolls... 'Eadbanger! Rerolls... 'ere we go! Suddenly the backfield objective of the necrons is occupied by orks. A monolith is not happy about this and sucks half my shoota boyz through the portal. A huge unit of flayed ones appears next to my boyz. Surfboard lord gets dangerously close to my gretchin bunker.
Turn 4, dakka jet comes in, I call the Waagh! and it simply blows all flawed one off the table. The burna bommer drops a bomb but scatter, shoots another two missiles and his big and supa-shoota twice, killing 13 necron warriors, wiping the squad out. Quad gun kills two more necrons. Warphead rolls... 'Eadbanger! Rerolls... 'ere we go! Zog that stupid git. My boyz deep-strike somewhere far from the damned monolith and fail to hit anything by shooting. Slugga boyz charge the Overlord, drag him off his command barge and beat him dead.
Turn 5 is pretty much clean-up. My slugga boyz clear some immortals off an objective, a quartet of destroyers refuses to budge from another objective, my gretchin shall know no fear. The skorcha bommer drops his bomb on the last necron warrior and kills him, the soul grinder smashes the command barge, the monolith proceeds to vacuum more boyz, warphead fails his psychic test. Except for the monolith and the five destroyers the necrons have been annihilated. Game ends with 10 VP (2 objectives + 2 warlords + first blood + linebreaker) to 1 (one warlord). Crushing defeat for the necrons. To be fair, one of them was playing his army from before the codex update, so no cryptecs or other fancy stuff. Notable things: - The skorcha bommer did awesome. The sheer amount of necron warriors it killed is insane. Four skorcha rokkits were exactly the right amount, didn't miss the third pair one second, while being happy to have brought the other four. - Quad Gun+Gretchin is no less than awesome. You always get 3-4 wounds or glances out of it, only the constant night slightly lessened its effect. - I hate my warphead now for being so useless. - Rolling for terrain density might leave you with very empty tables.
Game 2 2000 Points of orks vs 2000 points of eldar (my arch-nemesis ) Mission is two objectives, regular deployment. My list: -HQ- Biker Warboss, all toyz KFF mek with burna, 'eavy armor -Elite- 15 Lootaz (Big Mek) -Troops- 2x 20 Shootas, Nob, PK, BP, 'eavy armor 5x Nob bikerz, 2 PK, BC, BP, W! Banner, combi-skorcha, cybork, dok, grot -Fast Attack- 3x Dakka Jet, extra shoota, fighta ace -Heavy Support- 3x Battlewagon, rolla, armor plates, rigger, grabbin klaw, big shoota, red paint Yep, that's lootaz in a battlewagon.
I put my objective as close to my opponent's as possible to prevent tank-jumping shenanigans, so both are on the left side. Unneeded as it turns out. My warboss reduces enemy reserve rolls by 1. Eldrad Ulthran is allowed to outflank, trades away all his four powers for telepathy in an attempt to get the invincibility power. He doesn't get it. Turn1: Lights go out, again, lasts until turn 3 this time. My opponent redeploys his entire army (all skimmers, some reserves) to the right, then moves flat-out into my deployment zone. I turn my battlewagons around to meet them, and use the boss bikers to protect their rear.
Turn2: My opponent brings in a pair of war walkers and deep strikes a unit of warp spiders right between my boss bikers and the battlewagons. Any scatter would have been a mishap, but he hits. The walkers manage one penetrating hit on one boyz wagon, it explodes, killing half the squad. Fire dragons try to kill the loota wagon, but only take off a hull point. Warp spiders blow up the second boyz wagon. On my turn, the loota wagon goes on rampage. It runs over the fire dragons, killing three, crushing the last one during DoG, exploding their serpent, and wrecking the one behind it. The lootaz inside snap-fire and kill a third serpent. One unit of boyz charges Eldrad's serpent, wrecking it two times over without the klaw needing to do anything, leaving a seer council in the middle of nowhere. The other unit of boyz does the same to a fifth wave serpent. Two dakkajets come in and blow up a viper. Nob bikers trash the walkers, warboss tears warp spiders apart. Take that, panzees!
Turn3: Two pairs of walkers come, one in the middle of nowhere, one right behind the last battlewagon. A second unit of warpspiders mishaps back into reserves. Eldrad puts all kind of curses on one unit of boyz, the seer council incinerates the other boyz who charged their serpent. Walker blow up the lootaz' wagon, killing ten in the explosion. The walkers in the middle of nowhere take a hull point off a dakka jet. Dire avengers crawling from their wrecks kill a lot of boyz. My third dakka jet comes in and wipes out a unit of dire avenger, another one immobilizes the last viper, the last one kills one of the walkers that shot it. Nobz eat the walker unit which blew up the battlewagon after a grand 11" charge (walkers were 9.5" away). Lootaz stay still for the first time and kill the last serpent. No more eldar vehicles! The cursed boyz were not allowed to do anything, so they are still standing out in the open.
Turn4: Not much happening. The previously cursed boyz are wiped out, the seer council tries to get the nob bikerz, but is too far away to do anything but curse them. My lootaz kill a unit of dire avenger. My big mek flames and charges two dire avengers standing on a wreck, takes a wound to dangerous terrain, one of the DA dies to dangerous terrain. My big mek kills his first model in close combat, ever! He then dies to dangerous terrain while consolidating. Nob bikers move 20" away from the seer council, close to the objective. They can't harm them next turn that way. To my opponents confusion, all my dakka jets leave the table. He is even more confused after I tell him that it's all part of my master plan.
Turn 5: Warp spiders jump onto the objective next to my nob bikers. Council moves toward objective, has one model within 3". All other units are useless or eliminated. On my turn, my master plan unfolds, all three dakka jets come on, I call the Waagh! and pour 54 TL BS3 shots into the seer council, causing 44 wounds aaaand... 3 casualties. Damn you, fortune. Luckily one of them was the single warlock within 3". My nob bikers turn warp spiders into warp confetti, the game ends. Orks have 3 VP (1 Objective) vs Eldar 2 (First Blood, Line Breaker)
Notable things: - Lootaz in battlewagons rock. Lootaz that can move rock. Completely in love with them now. - I'm terrified of explosions. S4 explosions mean that half your squad goes. Hurts a lot for elite units. - Battlewagons don't die from glances. They die from penetrating hits, just like before. - KFF did close to nothing. - Skimmers are no longer a problem to orks. Charge them, ram them, deff rolla them. They die either way, jink doesn't change that. - I missed my quad gun this game. - Nobz take a lot more wounds now due to worse FNP, but wound allocation can easily be done like before with Look out Sir! - Even eldar with all shuriken catapults everywhere didn't manage to shoot a single dakka jet out of the sky.
Zog Off wrote:So the Imperial Armour FAQ's say Codex: Orks and the Dread Mob army lists count as Battle Brothers. Does anybody see any interesting combos there?
Well problem with Dread Mob is that you have to take spanner boyz, who are a tad worse than normal boyz. Still you can fit in some more dread goodness
Kharrak wrote:Man, having trouble choosing which planes to build.
The Dakkajet seems to be the best anti-air the Orks have, especially on a turn you Waaagh. In fact, since only Assault weapons are affected by Waaagh Plane, they are the only ones that get use out of it. Points wise, they're cheaper than Lootas for what you're paying for, more efficient than Quad Guns, and are harder to deal with than either. Then again, Bomb Squigs and Grabbin' Claws seem to be a potential viable alternative.
Burna Bombas are fantastic anti-infantry... against anything that doesn't have a majority 3+ save. They will liquefy *any* non space marine list, but space marines are such a massive majority within the playerbase. They are also the most expensive option, being 165pts if you want to toss on 4 skorcha missiles assuming it will last the two turns it will take to fire them.
Blitza-Bommas are also tempting, 5pts more expensive than an upgraded Dakka Jet for two str7 blast that rolls 2D6 for penetration against vehicles. Then again, this is arguably a less lethal asset considering the introduction of hull points. It would be able to finish off target vehicles, but not to take them out in one go. On the other hand, with a str7 blast that only scatters D6", it could be used as a "poor man's Burna Bomba", though I'm unsure the points would be worth it in that case.
I have tried the Blitza quite a bit and its the worst of the three by far, the single D6 makes it way to inconsistent for anti tank.
Lepuke wrote:I have tried the Blitza quite a bit and its the worst of the three by far, the single D6 makes it way to inconsistent for anti tank.
But the bombs roll 2D6 for penetration?
Still, I've sidelined the Blitza Bomma, and have decided to focus on Dakka Jets and Burna Bommas. A Dakka Jet primarily, since its the best anti-air the Orks have, plus some non-too-shabby anti-infantry (as long as it doesn't have a 2+ / 3+ save). Burna-Bomma shall be bought quickly though, since it looks be hilariously devastating to all the xeno races and IG.
Jidmah - thanks for the write up! Interesting read.
Jayden63 wrote:I've traded out my Big Mek for a Warp Head. Haven't got a chance to play it yet, but I'm looking forward to the much dakka he is going to help give my two dakka jets.
Hmmm, now theres an interesting idea. Ill be keeping that one in the memory banks. Definitely worth taking 1 just because of the extra WAAAGHS! you can get from them.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jidmah wrote:
Kharrak wrote:Jidmah - thanks for the write up! Interesting read.
You're welcome, I'm sorry about the dozens of spelling errors though... every time I reread it I find more
Yea that was awesome man Ive been working on larger builds since my game yesterday, and I cannot wait for my own DAKKAjets as well, and you made me want them even more. Those things are just the tits
6x warbikers - nob with big choppa
6x war bikers - nob with power claw
14x storm boys with zagstruck
2x dakka jet with extra shoota and fighta ace
Necron Detachment
Overlord with Warscythe, mindshackle, and phase sfiter in barge
5x tesla immortals- Harbinger of destruction with solar pulse
Doom Scythe
Solar pulse combines with bikes pretty well, giving them a 2+/3+ cover save on that first turn, especially if I go second. Good amount of anti-flyer in the doom scythe and the two dakkajets. Figure zaggstruck and the warbikers hit the enemy lines at about the same time as the fliers show up. Use the Waaggghh and just go to town.
Jidmah! Awesome BRs. Thanks so much for sharing.
I'm going to be getting in several games this week as well, so hopefully I'll be able to lay something out like this by next week.
Keep it coming guys.
Leth wrote:Yea but the standard ork had choppas that made the best save possible against it a 4+ so take what you will. For the melta we just have volume of fire weapons
So now I am stuck between meganobz in a battlewagon, or nob bikers
Bikers
+1 toughness
move like bikes
+1 attacks
can get FNP can get Invul
Meganobz
With same weapon is 30 points cheaper each
2+ save
Can ride in a battle wagon
Nobz are characters. Meganobz are not. That makes it a pretty easy decision.
Leth wrote:Yea but the standard ork had choppas that made the best save possible against it a 4+ so take what you will. For the melta we just have volume of fire weapons
So now I am stuck between meganobz in a battlewagon, or nob bikers
Bikers
+1 toughness
move like bikes
+1 attacks
can get FNP can get Invul
Meganobz
With same weapon is 30 points cheaper each
2+ save
Can ride in a battle wagon
Nobz are characters. Meganobz are not. That makes it a pretty easy decision.
I'd have to agree. Not only that, but you have to take their 4+ mobile save in to account as well, AND need I say it? "Mobility".
played 2.5k this weekend vs. a friends eldar (regular opponent)...
2 FOC's each, neither of us took allies.
He brought (this is a fuzzy monday morning memory from a booze/drug fueled game so pardon me.) (will ask him to read the thread and help me correct anything)
eldrad (warlord, he realized should of made pheonix lord this after the fact)
Dark reaper pheonix lord,
farseer on jetbike (in seer council)
farseer on jetbike (with jetbike troops)
some dark reapers
3 war walkers
3 vypers
1 falcon w/ 8 fire dragons or so
2 wave serpents with 7 avengers or whatever has bladestorm in em'
seer council 6 strong or so
2 units of jetbikes 6 strong i think. (warlock in each, seer also in one i think)
ork list:
mega warboss (warlord)
biker boss
mad dok
big mek (kff)
dakkajet
15 stormboys n boss zag
2 deffkoptas w/ rokkits
5 nob bikers painboy included (troop)
5 meganobs (cyborked) (troop) (mad dok's escort = mega failure) (with deffrolla wagon dedicated transport)
10 lootas + 2 meks
12 burna boys + 3 meks
BW w/ defrolla n 4 big shootas
deff dread 2 skorchas (troop)
We got whatever missions that was d3+2 objectives which ended up being 4 centrally located objectives, 1 closer to each of our deployments. 2 middle ground.
dawn of war deployment, I get some lame warlord trait about counter attack in my own deployment and Eldrad gets a bonus VP for each character he slays.
I believe eldar win deployment, and set up eldrad/pheonix lord/dark reapers in central ruins on north long table edge. warwalkers flanking them, 1 serpent on west flank behind obelisk, falcon and serpent torward east flank behind mountains, jet bikes and seer council fill the deployment zone between those members. Its very full. and I feel like mine is going to very scarce.
I deploy bikes on west flank with biker boss, behind a mountain, safe from all the killy shooting stuff and only visible to a single serpent.. lootas go in ruins in central side of my long edge, wagons nearby, and dredd hiding behind them, all easily within reach of meks from lootas (1 wagon has burna boys/3 meks and big mek inside it)... will update from mobile, have to leave office!
edit: back from lunch!
After I deployed my opponent rolls for how many units he can redeploy... 3! I forgot about this...
He places walkers/ reapers with eldrad n pheonix lord, directing in LOS of my bikers, and moves the non-threatening wave serpent elsewhere.
Eldar turn one:
I believe eldar had the first go, massive amounts of shots are let loose, couple saved glances on wagons, 2 bikers die, 2 more wounds on survivors. seer council moves to middle of board, falcon flanks them and drops fire dragons to melt whatever wagon comes close. jetbikes shuffle around and identify objectives, his serpent on east flank hides behind mountains, vypers move to other flank of seer council for shooting against wagon side armor but fail to do anything.
Ork turn 1:
Whew ok.. survived first turn without too much carnage... wagon with megaboss (warlord), mad dok, and 5 mega nobs moves torward closest enemy (seer council) disembarks and is only 8" away or so, a fairly safe charge. Not looking too bad this far, I think I will win the combat, I definitely won't run being fearless. Other wagon with burnas move torward west flank where walkers/reapers are castled, jetbikes are in front of them as well so concentrate shooting on what I can reach and fell a couple.
Deff dredd moves up torward immobilized falcon. Can charge next turn hopefully.
Bikers move forward, and I stupidly choose to shoot at the vypers in lieu of turboboosting the out of LOS of the death spitting 4"x4" corner of the board... and bikers manage to drop vypers from 3 to 2.
lootas shoot at some probably knocking some HP's off.
MANZ charge seer council, 6 D3 auto hit flamers later negligible wounds thanks to 2+ mega armor and FNP.
MANZ drop council to farseer and 2 warlocks, maybe 3. (from 6-7 originally) and win combat, eldar actually fail leadership and bolt 4" from their table edge.
Eldar 2:
Seer council stays in cover casting spells and playing pokemon or something.
massive amounts of shooting from the ultra killy reaper/war walker castle fells my warbiker boss and the last bikers with him.
fire dragons drop a meganob or put a wound on one.
vypers strip a HP off mekless wagon (MANZ ride)
lots of shooting at manz with jetbikes etc to no effect.
Orks 2:
roll for reserves and everything comes in!
zagstruk and vulchas (who are all cyborked!) deepstrike in front of a forest that is providing cover to the jetbikes who are protecting the walker/reaper castle. between my gunline and the stormboys is 1 vyper
deffkoptas come in east flank behind hiding serpent full of DA.
plane comes in along west side flying directly at walkers/reapers.
MANZ run torward falcon (side) because its closer than fire dragons.
dredd moves up to falcon front.
burna wagon advances towards jetbikes who have moved from middle of his deployment to west side hiding from plane along a mountain.
Lootas gib the last vypers, stormboys kill 1 jetbike with shooting (how the hell), dakka jet downs 2 war walkers and takes a hull point off the 3rd
kopters blow up serpent killing 1 or 2 in wreck, but they are not pinned.
dredd assaults falcon wrecking it
MANZ assault fire dragons seeing as they are now closest enemy, wiping them and consolidating toward seer council in ruins. (mega warboss leaves group and moves torward castled reapers/ eldrad)
stormyboys take d3 casualties and choose to charge and fail it! losing 2 to the d3 and 2 to overwatch.
Eldar 3:
Dire avengers shoot alot at kopters but makes saves and only 1 dies of the 2. They then assault kopter which ends in a draw.
Seers move torward MANZ shoot them/assault lose combat but hold with minimal survivors.
Walker moves away from castle for LOS on empty wagon and wrecks it.
Serpent that had redeployed to side with kopters jumps the mountain and lands behind dread, wrecking it in a torrent of s6 shots.
reapers shoot at plane and get 1 glance removing a hull point.
Orks 3:
waaaaaagh!
Burna wagon moves closer to jetbikes dumps burnas out front
stormboys hop woods and shoot/charge jetbikes wiping them but leaving themselves hella exposed to reapers..
lootas down the serpent that killed the dredd, spilling its contents near an obj.
jet shoots reapers killing 3-4... 3+ with fortune.. sigh. with 18 shots...
burnas/big shootas fire off killing 2/5 jetbike guardians then assaulting/winning leaving a remaining lone jetbike and a farseer with 2 wounds on him.
MANZ finish off council and consolidate into forest ontop of obj. torwards nearest enemy DA in combat with kopters.. in process of running past it due to stupid 1 scalpel short of a medpack rule.
Eldar 4: DA still holding strong vs. kopter, draw after draw after draw..
Walker shoots at burna wagon but KFF saves the HP loss.
Reapers fire on stormboys killing all but 4 (but they pass morale)
footslogging squad on ork territory moves torwards lootas and onto obj.
Orks 4: MANZ move thru cover torward DA and roll 2" and don't make it out of forest or out of obj controlling zone, haha. cmon guys 1 more turn possibly!
burna wagon turn and drives torward walker/castle and warboss is headed torward it also, in hopes of catching a ride along the way.
stormboys assault reapers, lose 2 to overwatch, eldrad challenges zagstruk and I accept (thinking eldrad cast 2/3 powers not having a pwr weapong AND stupidly forgetting he gets a VP for slaying the character) .. and eldrad eats zag struks lunch/remaining last wound
they win, consolidate torwards walker/away from corner
lootas kill half of DA on obj in my turf. 3 left or so
plane blows up last walker
all i got for now gotta get some work done! will edit rest later
Bomb Squig wrote:Ha so the general consensus is that the Blitza-Bommer is the worst? Aww. I just built mine into a Blitza. That sucks. Lol.
Well, take my opinion on the basis I've yet to play with either 3 - but with the Hull Point system in, it's not going to kill any vehicles - more finish them off, or prepare them to be finished off in your following shooting phase. It's not bad, but I see much more potential in the Dakkajet for killing enemy flyers, and the Burna Bomma for melting all non 3+ save infantry.
Depending on where you look, you'll actually find a rather rotary variety on how people see the planes. Many feel the Blitza-Bomma is the best option. I just don't happen to agree with them at this point
Here is some theory for you guys to rip apart.
Now that Lootas can snapfire, would this make looted wagons a viable gun platform for them? Here is my tactic.
Buy the basic looted wagon, no upgrades (Cheap!).
Max it out with Lootas, (or maybe a mek or two for repairs?).
Put them somewhere with some cover for the tank, or maybe some friendly models in front to halt the Don't Press Dat! results.
Fire at will!
If you get a 1 on Don't Press Dat! either you'll roll up a bit, or get stopped by models or terrain, and still be able to snap fire.
Cheap effective Loota cover.
Well, I was looking at it, functionally, less like a mobile gun platform, and more like great cover to keep the lootas from going down to small arms fire. AV11 and 5+ cover (Or 4+ from parking it in ruins) seems like a nice deal for 35 points.
matphat wrote:Well, I was looking at it, functionally, less like a mobile gun platform, and more like great cover to keep the lootas from going down to small arms fire. AV11 and 5+ cover (Or 4+ from parking it in ruins) seems like a nice deal for 35 points.
Coming from a game I just played against Blood Angels- well. Flash Gitz are frikkin' amazing. (note: I roll each Git'z shooting individually, so Gets Hot! is per model, not unit). The new Gitfindas rule, ignoring cover? Really, really awesome. And they rolled a every turn for their AP! (in hindsight, that made the Blastas upgrade useless and expensive, but I was playing about 40-50 points down anyways). Basically, the enemy gets nothing but FnP and Invuln saves against these guys, and anyone with 3 T or lower doesnt' even get FnP! The Gitz obliterated an entire 10 man Assault squad by themselves.
Pretty much nothing else did anything that game, however, so yeah.
Leth wrote:Yea but the standard ork had choppas that made the best save possible against it a 4+ so take what you will. For the melta we just have volume of fire weapons
So now I am stuck between meganobz in a battlewagon, or nob bikers
Bikers
+1 toughness
move like bikes
+1 attacks
can get FNP can get Invul
Meganobz
With same weapon is 30 points cheaper each
2+ save
Can ride in a battle wagon
Nobz are characters. Meganobz are not. That makes it a pretty easy decision.
I'd have to agree. Not only that, but you have to take their 4+ mobile save in to account as well, AND need I say it? "Mobility".
I dunno, multi wound 2+ save power klaws is pretty badass. And I can say, playing against a 5 man termy squad the other day, 2+ saves are a harder nut to crack now for all armies.
I'd have to agree. Not only that, but you have to take their 4+ mobile save in to account as well, AND need I say it? "Mobility".
Forgot about the save when I made the list, also forgot about the twin linked shooting. Since I am taking a solar pulse it really becomes a no brainer(I expect that the nob thing will be FAQed since they did it for Space Wolves, and specifically allow it for grey knights so I am not factoring that into my decision)
I sincerely hope they FAQ the Meganobz issue. The character trait is one of the most powerful traits you can give a model, and if they got it I would definitely consider them some more. They are incredibly points efficient for what they can do.
Leth wrote:Yea but the standard ork had choppas that made the best save possible against it a 4+ so take what you will. For the melta we just have volume of fire weapons
So now I am stuck between meganobz in a battlewagon, or nob bikers
Bikers
+1 toughness
move like bikes
+1 attacks
can get FNP can get Invul
Meganobz
With same weapon is 30 points cheaper each
2+ save
Can ride in a battle wagon
Nobz are characters. Meganobz are not. That makes it a pretty easy decision.
I'd have to agree. Not only that, but you have to take their 4+ mobile save in to account as well, AND need I say it? "Mobility".
I dunno, multi wound 2+ save power klaws is pretty badass. And I can say, playing against a 5 man termy squad the other day, 2+ saves are a harder nut to crack now for all armies.
Also SaP doesnt actaully slow you down any more, so there not really that immobile
I have found great success running MANZ in 6th as a troop choice. They have yet to be killed off of whatever objective they were trying to hold.... The only problem I have is if i use them as an escort for the mad dok to give them all FNP, and him running amok all over the board like a bulldozer, smashing everything in its way, but "stuck on stupid and running wide open"
Considering running normal nobs and a megaboss up front to use 2+ for whole squad, and let big mek provide BP for MANZ..
Hard to decide for hq's for me now... I want 2 bosses for scoring MANZ and scoring nob bikers, but I also want KFF/hull repair/troop dredd... and even more I want grotsnik for cybork MANZ/kopters/stormboys etc. but doing so makes me take no nobs as troops and get a KFF mek, or have to pick which will be scoring, bikers or MANZ? :(
Id drop the manz, whilst they are much better now, they still have crap leadership and will flee at the loss of two models in most set ups (unless you're running 8+ which is quite expensive). They are also quite slow for what they are compared to nob bikers.
MANZ Pros:
Cheap PK (much slower)
2+
Kills alot of shizzle
Can be scoring unit that is hard to move
Manz Cons:
Screwed by lascannon fire (ID AP2)
No FNP Slower than bikes
Lose mobility to run (not important but screwed me the other day)
Expensive for low model count compared to others
Costly Grotsnik Inv Save / Have to use KFF for cover save
Nob Biker Pros:
4+ Cover Permanent
Hammer of Wrath
T5
Potential 24 inch charge (12inch move + 2d6)
Can Score
Can rapidly switch board sides (last turn denial)
FNP Not screwed by lascannons
Inv Save
Nob Biker Cons:
ID by S10
More expensive (more speed)
Dangerous Test on terrain
Takes up big chunk of army and if singled out turn one, can be quite dire.
If i've missed anything let me know But frankly i think this is between Speed / Endurance (MANZ being endurance).
Personally i prefer bikers because they can do much more and you only really need 2 PK's (aim never to kill on turn you charge, kill in opponents turn).
Biker Boss is also T6, which is very hard compared to Megaboss, which can be Instant deathed by S10, and T6 screws most enemy characteres in challenges, unless they are special character like overlord with S5
Also, i think KFF is mandatory for all lists. Especially if running boyz mob (i run 50 shoota's, with other stuff around, like wagon nobz).
As well as this, dont bother with grotsnik, waste. Just stick the MANZ inside a mob of boyz with a KFF joined onto the boyz to keep him alive, and that way the nobz will be safe until they get into combat, with a 2+ save they should be okay, but another good thing about bikers is you dont have to worry about this
So I got in my first game of 6th finally, a 1.5k game against a mate's DE list, as it transpires, this is pretty much what he's taking to Throne of Skulls.
I had more or less the usual:
Gazzy
Megaboss with all the gear
2 x 8 meganobs in wagons
Super kannon wagon
He had:
Homunculus
Two small units of wracks, one in a venom.
Two units of 5 first born, two blasters, three cannons, in double cannon venoms.
Two units of 6 harpies with two haywire blaster things in each.
Two razorwings with the large blast missiles.
Allied farseer (divination), two units of rangers.
Needless to say, it all went horribly wrong, despite seizing the initiative. The firepower on the razorwings is insane. Gazzy's mob was reduced to Gazzy on a single wound in a single turn by them and the homunculus' toughness-test flamer once the first born popped the wagon. The other mob got into combat with the other and then was whittled down before the razor wings finished them off. The super kannon wagon maybe killed a single model due to the cover saves of various stuff.
Is there anything an all-comer ork list can do against this? The anti-infantry and anti-tank fire power is insane (190 points for each first born + venom) and they have more than enough manoeuvrability to never risk combat.
Dribble Joy wrote:So I got in my first game of 6th finally, a 1.5k game against a mate's DE list, as it transpires, this is pretty much what he's taking to Throne of Skulls.
I had more or less the usual:
Gazzy
Megaboss with all the gear
2 x 8 meganobs in wagons
Super kannon wagon
He had:
Homunculus
Two small units of wracks, one in a venom.
Two units of 5 first born, two blasters, three cannons, in double cannon venoms.
Two units of 6 harpies with two haywire blaster things in each.
Two razorwings with the large blast missiles.
Allied farseer (divination), two units of rangers.
Needless to say, it all went horribly wrong, despite seizing the initiative. The firepower on the razorwings is insane. Gazzy's mob was reduced to Gazzy on a single wound in a single turn by them and the homunculus' toughness-test flamer once the first born popped the wagon. The other mob got into combat with the other and then was whittled down before the razor wings finished them off. The super kannon wagon maybe killed a single model due to the cover saves of various stuff.
Is there anything an all-comer ork list can do against this? The anti-infantry and anti-tank fire power is insane (190 points for each first born + venom) and they have more than enough manoeuvrability to never risk combat.
At 1500 points, you had 19 models on the field...
1) We're not Grey Knights. At 1.5k, I have 95 models (6 are kanz, 2 are dakkajets) on the field.
2) I suggest getting another wagon, leaving 1 squad in the open is baaaad against shooty things. You need to shield them both. 2 deadly/hard to crack targets are better than 1 hard to crack/deadly + 1 unit left in the open to die.
Dr. What wrote:At 1500 points, you had 19 models on the field...
1) We're not Grey Knights. At 1.5k, I have 95 models (6 are kanz, 2 are dakkajets) on the field.
2) I suggest getting another wagon, leaving 1 squad in the open is baaaad against shooty things. You need to shield them both. 2 deadly/hard to crack targets are better than 1 hard to crack/deadly + 1 unit left in the open to die.
I'm aware that my list is not that viable, it's fun and fluffy, but I usually do OK with it.
I didn't have one unit on foot, they were in a wagon too. It got vaped from under them in turn two by blasters from one of the first born squads.
As for regular ork armies, that's kinda what I'm asking; the amount of anti-infantry firepower in the list is eye-watering, 95 models would be dead in three turns, four if you're lucky. What can orks do against this type of force at all?
The dakkajet isn't the answer, as you can elect to angle to flier when it comes on so that it's minimum move takes it off the board and automatically arrive next turn, which is what he said he would do if a dakkjet turned up. He then either rinces the dakkajet or does the same thing again if you do it. Quadguns are pointless as he has so much poisoned to make the T7/3+ redundant. Lootas will be mown down after their wagon is taken out by blasters/haywire/dark lances. Boys will be gunned down in their dozens. Patch finders sit in ruins with their 2+ cover.
Dribble Joy wrote:So I got in my first game of 6th finally, a 1.5k game against a mate's DE list, as it transpires, this is pretty much what he's taking to Throne of Skulls.
I had more or less the usual:
Gazzy
Megaboss with all the gear
2 x 8 meganobs in wagons
Super kannon wagon
He had:
Homunculus
Two small units of wracks, one in a venom.
Two units of 5 first born, two blasters, three cannons, in double cannon venoms.
Two units of 6 harpies with two haywire blaster things in each.
Two razorwings with the large blast missiles.
Allied farseer (divination), two units of rangers.
Needless to say, it all went horribly wrong, despite seizing the initiative. The firepower on the razorwings is insane. Gazzy's mob was reduced to Gazzy on a single wound in a single turn by them and the homunculus' toughness-test flamer once the first born popped the wagon. The other mob got into combat with the other and then was whittled down before the razor wings finished them off. The super kannon wagon maybe killed a single model due to the cover saves of various stuff.
Is there anything an all-comer ork list can do against this? The anti-infantry and anti-tank fire power is insane (190 points for each first born + venom) and they have more than enough manoeuvrability to never risk combat.
I loooooove Ghazzy, but he's pretty much dead in this edition.
Bede19025 wrote:What's that bit in the first post about the Boss being able to re roll dice in a challenge if it's got Boyz watching? Where is that stated?
In challenges for every 5 of your own guys watching, you get a reroll to either reroll to hit, to wound, or to do an armor save
Since orks have a lot of boyz, you'll probably get a few rerolls as long as nothing terrible happens to your orks
Bede19025 wrote:What's that bit in the first post about the Boss being able to re roll dice in a challenge if it's got Boyz watching? Where is that stated?
In challenges for every 5 of your own guys watching, you get a reroll to either reroll to hit, to wound, or to do an armor save
Since orks have a lot of boyz, you'll probably get a few rerolls as long as nothing terrible happens to your orks
Only thing you need to remember is that it has to be one lone character by himself facing off against your entire horde.
So say you ran into an emperor's champion all by himself, and you charged your warboss in with 30 boyz as backup and challenged the champion with your boss, he HAS to accept. Then, the boss and the champion must duke it out, one on one. The boyz can do nothing but stand and cheer the boss on, and that's where the rerolls come from. In this case, you would get 6 rerolls for to hits, to wounds, and saves.
However, say his champion had a 10 man terminator unit with him, you could not use the "get him boss!" rule, as it specifically says it has to be 1 vs1 with the enemy unit completely alone.
You'll probably only get to use it in a few special circumstances, like fighting MC's or a guy like marbo who appears out of nowhere by himself. Other than that, you won't get to use it much. Which is a shame, because it's such a cool rule.
Dribble Joy wrote:So I got in my first game of 6th finally, a 1.5k game against a mate's DE list, as it transpires, this is pretty much what he's taking to Throne of Skulls.
I had more or less the usual:
Gazzy
Megaboss with all the gear
2 x 8 meganobs in wagons
Super kannon wagon
He had:
Homunculus
Two small units of wracks, one in a venom.
Two units of 5 first born, two blasters, three cannons, in double cannon venoms.
Two units of 6 harpies with two haywire blaster things in each.
Two razorwings with the large blast missiles.
Allied farseer (divination), two units of rangers.
Needless to say, it all went horribly wrong, despite seizing the initiative. The firepower on the razorwings is insane. Gazzy's mob was reduced to Gazzy on a single wound in a single turn by them and the homunculus' toughness-test flamer once the first born popped the wagon. The other mob got into combat with the other and then was whittled down before the razor wings finished them off. The super kannon wagon maybe killed a single model due to the cover saves of various stuff.
Is there anything an all-comer ork list can do against this? The anti-infantry and anti-tank fire power is insane (190 points for each first born + venom) and they have more than enough manoeuvrability to never risk combat.
At 1500 points, you had 19 models on the field...
1) We're not Grey Knights. At 1.5k, I have 95 models (6 are kanz, 2 are dakkajets) on the field.
2) I suggest getting another wagon, leaving 1 squad in the open is baaaad against shooty things. You need to shield them both. 2 deadly/hard to crack targets are better than 1 hard to crack/deadly + 1 unit left in the open to die.
This. I'm not an expert, but that list is just ASKING to be wiped by anyone not also taking a "super fluffy" list. That list actually made me wonder if you were trolling for a second. I think it's an awesome thematic list, don't get me wrong, but it's not going to win you any games. Orks need bodies on the field to survive games.
Dr. What wrote:Well, since Weirdboys have been brought up, what does everybody think about Old Zogwort?
He is as awesome as ever, plus (unlike regular warpheads) no one would dare to challenge him in close combat. The trukkload of I4 attacks wounding on 2+ he dishes out is trouble to anything not wearing MA or TDA
Automatically Appended Next Post:
matphat wrote:This. I'm not an expert, but that list is just ASKING to be wiped by anyone not also taking a "super fluffy" list. That list actually made me wonder if you were trolling for a second. I think it's an awesome thematic list, don't get me wrong, but it's not going to win you any games. Orks need bodies on the field to survive games.
Considering his avatar, he is probably dead serious about this.
Deffwing is more viable in 6th than ever, but that still doesn't make it a great army. Keep in mind that draigo wing brings something in addition to paladins, too, so deff wing should be backed by kannons (or more supa-kannons). lootaz or maybe a pair of planes. I also would drop Ghazzy, as he really doesn't add much to your army for his cost - you can't even run with your Manz :|
It quickly became apparent that the army was going to get minced in short order. My complete inability to roll sixes for my snap shots against the venoms (4 BS and 9 TL-shootas took the best part of three turns do down one) or covers saves only made things worse.
I'm highly reluctant to include anything that isn't a wagon or in mega armour for the sake of the theme of the list, though I am entirely aware of the serious limitations this imposes on the viability of the army.
I'm thinking I might drop Gazzy down to a megaboss, split the meganobs down into three units of six, by them a wagon and then swap the super kannon for something like a 4RL/kannon wagon.
But like I said; I wonder what a normal ork force could do against it, I really don't think they could get into combat fast enough or in sufficient strength before getting tabled.
Unsure, haven't played against dark eldar all that much, but both dakka jets and burna bommers are pretty awesome against about almost anything they can field.
Needless to say, it all went horribly wrong, despite seizing the initiative. The firepower on the razorwings is insane. Gazzy's mob was reduced to Gazzy on a single wound in a single turn by them and the homunculus' toughness-test flamer once the first born popped the wagon. The other mob got into combat with the other and then was whittled down before the razor wings finished them off. The super kannon wagon maybe killed a single model due to the cover saves of various stuff.
Is there anything an all-comer ork list can do against this? The anti-infantry and anti-tank fire power is insane (190 points for each first born + venom) and they have more than enough manoeuvrability to never risk combat.
Nob Bikers can't be instant death'ed against S8, and they have a 4+ cover save no matter what with a 5+ FNP, so that would help you out.
2+ may be better in CC now but it didn't get any better against shooting, so if a Deldar or IG or SM stacks tons of Lascannon or Dark Lances your MANz aren't going to do super awesome. It doesn't help that Ghazghkull is going to be wounded on 2's and only have a 5+ invul with no Feel No Pain. Then you have the other fun thing which is that Dark Lances count as AV12 against your Battlewagons.
SoooOOoo. I would suggest - Biker Nobs and a Bikah Boss!
Jidah looks to have figured some things out as far as shooting, particularly shooting fliers. He came up with a dual BS3 TL Autocannon Aegis Defense Line for Grots that also has Skyfire, so that's pretty excellent against fliers.
I played two games of 40k that had necrons with ork allies. Both were bike based contingents. I won both, however in the second game the nob bikers unit with warboss against chaos demons was really REALLY good. They just ate through anything that landed I was thinking of upgrading everyone to having big choppas with one of them having a claw. With the wagghh banner it was just the number of attacks was staggering. With cybork body and FNP the unit took two wounds all game.
Also took Dakkajet in both games and it has maintained a 1:1 kill ratio so far. One round of shooting one dead whatever(usually vehicles or MCs)
So what does everyone feel about Defkopta's (specifically 5 with Kustom Mega Blastas)?
Every turn you should get at least 1 hit, and with Ap2 being the magical +1 to vehicle damage rolls they are looking like some of the best range vehicle killers in our book.
Was thinking of running this list:
Sonz of Anarchy HQ - 320 Wazdakka Gutsmek (180)
Warboss (140)
power klaw; warbike; cybork body; bosspole.
--- Just read Fortification rules and it uses an Icarus Lascannon on the roof as an EMPLACED WEAPON, meaning squad inside can fire that without being exposed on the roof
sweeps them. First blood! During my opponent#s turn, the warboss takes another single wound, fails to save, dies - to a total of seven successful wounds. Necron Lord on command barge comes in from the flank, quad gun shoots interceptor fire at him and takes two hull points off the barge. A lot of boyz are shot dead by destroyers and a monolith.
every turn for their