Can't you take a 5-MANz unit along with a mega-armour Warboss in a Trukk? That gives you Ld9. As an IC, the Warboss can quit the nobz the following turn, and both units could wreak havoc amongst enemy units (possibly with kombi-skorchas before assault phase). But I understand that those 350 points could be invested somewhere else.
Then, maybe just 3 MANz + Warboss in a Trukk, bringing down the total to 250 points?
MrMoustaffa wrote: Wow really only 3 or 4? I mean, I knew meganobz were 'ard, but I didn't know they were that 'ard. Is there something I'm missing about them. I know they're 2 wound "termies" all armed with power klaws and a healthy amount of attacks a piece, all for a mere 40pts. Aside from LD7 and slow and purposeful, is there anything else I'm missing?
LD7 and them going *splat* when shot with lascannons, demolishers or melta (or the Xenos equivalents) really concludes all there is to it. They aren't terminators because they can easily be tank-shocked or shot off the table if you bring the right tools. If you didn't (or your tools suffered an overdose of shoota bullets), they are more efficient than terminators. Terminators have good staying power no matter what, with good leadership, 5++ and better weapon choices, but they don't get that for free. Terminators also tend to be in trouble when getting hit by a lot of attacks, while MANz mitigate that by having two wounds and a gakton of attacks themselves. They look really similar on paper, but when played (or more accurately, played against), they have little in common besides 2+ armor.
Bonzofever wrote: Can't you take a 5-MANz unit along with a mega-armour Warboss in a Trukk? That gives you Ld9. As an IC, the Warboss can quit the nobz the following turn, and both units could wreak havoc amongst enemy units (possibly with kombi-skorchas before assault phase). But I understand that those 350 points could be invested somewhere else.
Then, maybe just 3 MANz + Warboss in a Trukk, bringing down the total to 250 points?
3 MANz in a trukk with reinforced ram cost 160 points. A MA warboss is 135. If you've got elite slots to spare, it's really more efficient to just get two units of MANz. In addition, you might also get to your target without your trukk blowing up, your trukk just being wrecked, or you passing the pinning test anyways (60% chance). Even if you get pinned, just get up and attack them next turn - you are sitting in a 5+ cover crater with 2+ armor models, it will quite some firepower to get them out of there. A lot more firepower than 160 points.
Yea Im not a fan of sticking a Boss in even with MANz. It always comes down to overkill. MANz will probably feth up whatever your throwing them at, so the Boss is again, PK overkill. Playing a MANz missile or two takes some finesse and learning how to get them where they are needed. Thats why I always tell people willing to try them, hold them back until midgame, then let the trukks rip up some table, it usually works well. But doing the newbie mistake, by sticking them in the front to play them "aggressively" is the fastest way to think they and trukks, suck the big one. No gak smart guy, how did you expect an AV10 vehicle to withstand an entire armies worth of shooting?
BUT I will admit, having a boss in there with a bosspole isnt a terrible idea as far as fixing their low leadership. Because a failed Ld test, that gets rerolled thanks to a bosspole is nice, because that 2+ armor is more then likely going to ignore the thumb on the noggin, and if not, well, youve still got a wound left. So for this reason only, Id say putting a boss in with them wouldnt be a terrible idea.
KingCracker wrote: Yea Im not a fan of sticking a Boss in even with MANz. It always comes down to overkill. MANz will probably feth up whatever your throwing them at, so the Boss is again, PK overkill. Playing a MANz missile or two takes some finesse and learning how to get them where they are needed. Thats why I always tell people willing to try them, hold them back until midgame, then let the trukks rip up some table, it usually works well. But doing the newbie mistake, by sticking them in the front to play them "aggressively" is the fastest way to think they and trukks, suck the big one. No gak smart guy, how did you expect an AV10 vehicle to withstand an entire armies worth of shooting?
BUT I will admit, having a boss in there with a bosspole isnt a terrible idea as far as fixing their low leadership. Because a failed Ld test, that gets rerolled thanks to a bosspole is nice, because that 2+ armor is more then likely going to ignore the thumb on the noggin, and if not, well, youve still got a wound left. So for this reason only, Id say putting a boss in with them wouldnt be a terrible idea.
Ironically my meganobz are used in such a nooby way but then again i know how to face my armor and take cover saves very well but I agree actually. I am starting to see that my Meganobz can get the job done well themselves i just worry about leadership 7... it seems SO DUMB they can't get bosspoles themselves for being so dead killy. Fluff wise it blows my mind meganobz wouldn't feel nearly fearless in megaarmor despite other gitz dying ... i do is it the other way as well though "if armor this good is failing i need to get outta here!"
I have been running 5 meganobz and a meganboss in small pts matches for about a month and I've seen exactly what cracker is saying. I've wiped an entire unit of FNP blood angel marines with their warlord who thought they would crash into 30 boyz and emerge victorious, oh they didn't take any wounds (more luck than tactics on that one) but i still had 13 boyz left standing defiantly at them. And next round my battle wagon rolled up directly behind them and popped out my boss + Manz and decimated the entire unit in 1 assualt down to the very last man. The sheer fact that nearly nothing other than nurgle is as formidable in CC as FNP assualt marines should heavily highlight the best circumstances of nobz + boss and the fact that 2 wounds is required to make them test is clearly an easier chance to avoid morale tests since you have 2+ armor. stil... ldr 7.... i can't ignore it.
Either way in my current games i need that hammer, I'd use a big mek but being able to treat manz as troops in my 600 pt games is too deadly
Jidmah wrote: 3 MANz in a trukk with reinforced ram cost 160 points. A MA warboss is 135. If you've got elite slots to spare, it's really more efficient to just get two units of MANz. In addition, you might also get to your target without your trukk blowing up, your trukk just being wrecked, or you passing the pinning test anyways (60% chance). Even if you get pinned, just get up and attack them next turn - you are sitting in a 5+ cover crater with 2+ armor models, it will quite some firepower to get them out of there. A lot more firepower than 160 points.
I'm a bit confused here. Did you add cybork body, attack squig, bosspole and kombi-weapon to your WB? If you play him as HQ, remember MANz can be used as a Troop choice. For 110 points, your MAWB can face weapons that instant-kill nobz, a 2+/5++ wall that helps to pass Ld tests, plus the possibility to split them to aim at different units (which can come in handy). Anyway I see what you're getting at, you have a good point! I think I'll have to try this "two-pronged" attack.
Most of the time I'm facing IG and Eldar armies, MANz can prove effective against both of them by soaking up enemy fire. I have to admit it bothers me to spend points in such a few number of models. I tend to prefer target saturation rather than pure survivability - although a Trukk caught in a KFF bubble is nice.
KingCracker wrote: But doing the newbie mistake, by sticking them in the front to play them "aggressively" is the fastest way to think they and trukks, suck the big one. No gak smart guy, how did you expect an AV10 vehicle to withstand an entire armies worth of shooting?.
Obviously. The only time I played them on 6th edition, the unit was in reserve. But you have to fail your 3+ roll on turn 2 if you wish to do exactly as planned, i.e. throw these guys in the melee.
I think I'll have to try 3 MANz in a trukk for my next list to complement a trio of battlewagons full of boyz./MANz. The trukk can always hide behind the wagons if there's nowhere else to go.
I don't think I'll be able to use my wagon converted from a baneblade though, trying to hide anything behind that thing usually gets me the side-eye from my opponents. love the model though.
I throw mine forward aggressively on turn one. This is mainly due to the fact that my whole army is in trukks or a lone battlewagon, and everyone is belting forward. The meganobz often attract fire that would easily wreck the three trukk boyz mobz, and either survive or soak it up like champs. That said, I'll have to try the unit in reserve sometime - it sounds like it could be a good tactic.
Fouler wrote: I don't think I'll be able to use my wagon converted from a baneblade though, trying to hide anything behind that thing usually gets me the side-eye from my opponents. love the model though.
Just play your wagon as a Skullhamma
Charles Rampant wrote: I throw mine forward aggressively on turn one. This is mainly due to the fact that my whole army is in trukks or a lone battlewagon, and everyone is belting forward. The meganobz often attract fire that would easily wreck the three trukk boyz mobz, and either survive or soak it up like champs. That said, I'll have to try the unit in reserve sometime - it sounds like it could be a good tactic.
To me, the thing that maths can't take into account about MANz would be the "fear" factor.
In most of my games (4th & 5th) I used to run a couple of Trukks, one with the WB, the other with a KFF Mek. I remember my enemies firing all weapons at the vehicles, forgetting the second wave of foot Orks, the ones that eventually chopped them to bitz. On smaller boards (for 750-pts games) this used to be so effective! Your tactic remembers me the good ol' days.
On Turn 1 you can expect all enemy fire to be directed towards the "biggest threat", the vehicle transporting MANz. On Turn 2, heavy weaponry tries to take down the unit. Although you can't say for sure the other transports will be "safe", this kind of strategy can work. But you have to rely on the credulity of your opponent and a little bit of luck. At least, that's what I think!
KingCracker wrote: I hope you (Bonzofever) didnt think that was directed towards you. That was a general "smart guy" But like Ive said, you can hold them in reserves, and if they come on to early, you can always hide them behind something.
One can't be sure, can he?
Anyway I agree with the way you play Orks. I too love playing a biker WB coming into play with a small unit of kopterz.
I'll try to play 3 MANz in Trukk in a 1,500 points build.
It strikes me now that Meganobz would probably benefit considerably from Kustom Force field. The big nightmare for a MANz is of course Lascannons, because they might as well be a Guardsman against a Lascannon, but if you can give it a KFF save, that gives it the mobile equivalent of a Terminator invul save against ranged attacks, and with the recent Power Weapon nerfs, a 2up armor save in CC can only be bypassed by weapons that strike at initiative 1.
But just thinking about close combat Ork armies in 6e just makes my head hurt. All the transports and logistics that would be required - a major remodeling of army comp, plus purchasing all those ridiculously overpriced Meganobz - and for what, really?
TedNugent wrote: It strikes me now that Meganobz would probably benefit considerably from Kustom Force field. The big nightmare for a MANz is of course Lascannons, because they might as well be a Guardsman against a Lascannon, but if you can give it a KFF save, that gives it the mobile equivalent of a Terminator invul save against ranged attacks, and with the recent Power Weapon nerfs, a 2up armor save in CC can only be bypassed by weapons that strike at initiative 1.
But just thinking about close combat Ork armies in 6e just makes my head hurt. All the transports and logistics that would be required - a major remodeling of army comp, plus purchasing all those ridiculously overpriced Meganobz - and for what, really?
5+ cover doesn't exactly make lascannons(meltas, lances, railguns) inefficient at shooting MANz though. Usually it means they have to shoot twice instead of once to kill a nob.
Can you please tell what base should be used for Grotsnik? 25mm or 40mm? I am confused to hear that it should be 25mm bases since Grotsnik belong to HQ choice.
TedNugent wrote: It strikes me now that Meganobz would probably benefit considerably from Kustom Force field. The big nightmare for a MANz is of course Lascannons, because they might as well be a Guardsman against a Lascannon, but if you can give it a KFF save, that gives it the mobile equivalent of a Terminator invul save against ranged attacks, and with the recent Power Weapon nerfs, a 2up armor save in CC can only be bypassed by weapons that strike at initiative 1.
5+ cover doesn't exactly make lascannons(meltas, lances, railguns) inefficient at shooting MANz though. Usually it means they have to shoot twice instead of once to kill a nob.
Yeah, and more importantly don't forget IG armies can easily ignore cover saves.
A Vendetta with 3 twin-linked lascannons can easily kill 120 points worth of MANz in one shooting phase.
In my game last Thursday against a seasoned Grey Wolves player I brought Wazdakka, 2 BikerBosses and a MAB in 2000 points.
I had 2 MANz missles with the MAB in one. After losing both BikerBosses and a bunch of Bikes and DeffKoptas to his TWC Deathstar, I was able to table my opponent. Manz Missile is low priority compared to 3 BB's (including Waz) on the table. The bikes were able to provide cover to the Trukks every turn until at least the Manz got out.
Highlight of the game was when an empty Trukk rammed his TWC squad and his PFHQ got a weapon destroyed result on his Death or Glory. Even empty Trukks can be dangerous.
I'm thinking the next Orks Codex will bring the points costs of a lot of units down if the Chaos SM release is any predictor.
Anywho, the point of the post was:
4 HQ's rock at 2000+ points.
BikerBosses are awesome.
MAB with 3 MANz are great in a Trukk. Not a waste of points.
No need for PK's on BikerMob Nobz. A BC is all you need when charging units along with 2 or more BikerBosses
PipeAlley wrote: 4 HQ's rock at 2000+ points. BikerBosses are awesome. MAB with 3 MANz are great in a Trukk. Not a waste of points. No need for PK's on BikerMob Nobz. A BC is all you need when charging units along with 2 or more BikerBosses
I've had this kind of setup in mind for a few weeks now. At 2K points, double FOC: best used with 4 HQs. So a MAB joining 3 MANz in a trukk is that good? Anyway 3 Biker Bosses sounds crazy. I'd like to try that! I only got one kustom-made Wazzdakka though.
For those interested in Kromlech models, I received my Orks in greatcoats today, without their arms (Artur is gonna send them to me promptly). They look fabulous. I'm painting their jackets in blue just like the French "poilus" from WW1. I think I'm going to use those metal krak grenades from the old bomberboyz kit, just for fun. I hope I'll be able to test that Death Korps ally force asap.
No need for PK's on BikerMob Nobz. A BC is all you need when charging units along with 2 or more BikerBosses
That's an interesting statement. Could you extrapolate?
Last week in addition to the above listed units I ran 4 mobs of Bikerboyz as follows, 3 bikes, one as Nob with BC for a total of 90 points a piece. I also ran 3 units of Deffkoptas 2x3 and 1x2. BikerBosses ran with the 3 strong deffkopta units and Waz with the 2-strong unit. I was going to outflank those 3 units if I went second but in the end I went first and lined up the 3 Deffkopta units each wih a boss in a row and interspersed my 4 Bikerboyz units. Behind that wall of cover were the 2 Trukks full of Manz.
So I had six fast Troops units. I figured I'd go cheap with the BikerNobz since I felt I had enough PK's to spare. I really like the cheap BikerBoyz Nobz that can take/issue challenges to the scarier opp. HQ's as long as they all can get into assault.
Anywho I learned a lot that game since it was my first game without a mob of foot boyz in half a decade I think.
So next game it'll be 5 x 90 point Bikermobz, 1 unit of 3 Rokkit Deffkoptas, 2 units of 3 MANz missiles one with MAB. And of course Lootas.
Here's the plan: run all 3 BikerBosses with any single unit of Bikerboyz if I get first turn or with the 3 Deffkoptas if I go second. Wih the rule of majority toughness, that unit will all count as T6! Basically Orks pretending to be Grey Wolves 4 HQTWC. The bosses will be far enough away from each other that LoS rolls will transfer to the Bikerboyz or Deffkoptas.
Then I was thinking of serving else today:
If I ran a 3 Ork Mob of NobBikers with PainBoy and banner, would those bonii be transferred to the BikerBossses?
6 x T6 WS (Majority) 6 multi-wound FNP 4+5++4++ with at least 17 PK attacks on charge. Meanwhile it's a scoring unit and can take multiple Strength 10 shots to the face before losing models.
Has anyone ran warboss Zhadsnark da ripper from IA8? he's a biker that can tank shock and strike with his power klaw at Init 4. I'm going to start amassing some bikers and think this guy is better than Wazdakka.
Speaking of bikers, does anyone have any good plans on fighting a biker space marine list? The one I'm sizing up is fitted out with vindicators and land speeder tempests. I've only got 6 bikes myself.
Space marine bikes shouldnt be too much of a worry. space marines already have a small model count, and when they're on bikes it's even smaller. just pump more shots/attacks into them. Pks & SAGs will destroy space marine biker armies....
Hey, so, what are some tactics for fighting gaurd? they seem to have REALLY been boosted with 6th ed. I've only played vs. a gaurd player for 6th ed. and he beats me 90% of the time... most of the time i bring my 42 bikes for a wazz dakka army , but i was wondering if i should go for nob bikers?
chobarba wrote: Space marine bikes shouldnt be too much of a worry. space marines already have a small model count, and when they're on bikes it's even smaller. just pump more shots/attacks into them. Pks & SAGs will destroy space marine biker armies....
Hey, so, what are some tactics for fighting gaurd? they seem to have REALLY been boosted with 6th ed. I've only played vs. a gaurd player for 6th ed. and he beats me 90% of the time... most of the time i bring my 42 bikes for a wazz dakka army , but i was wondering if i should go for nob bikers?
Which list is he using to beat you? Tanks, artillery, gunline?
a valkyrie
marbo
manticore
straken w/ 4 melta vets in a chimera
2-3 melta/flamer vets in a chimera
3 russes, either 2 normals and one demolisher or the other way around.
storm troopers
and 3 squads of normal gaurdsmen with an auto cannon hwt.
I've been trying the normal biker army, but even with the 4+ cover saves i'm still getting tabled, that's why i'm thinking of going with nob bikers.
chobarba wrote: a valkyrie
marbo
manticore
straken w/ 4 melta vets in a chimera
2-3 melta/flamer vets in a chimera
3 russes, either 2 normals and one demolisher or the other way around.
storm troopers
and 3 squads of normal gaurdsmen with an auto cannon hwt.
I've been trying the normal biker army, but even with the 4+ cover saves i'm still getting tabled, that's why i'm thinking of going with nob bikers.
Well, if you go Nob Bikerz, watch out for any Str 10 and it looks like your opp is running plenty. Other than that, I'm a little consfused why you are losing 90% against guard and that particular guard list. If anything, more normal bikes would be good against any dedicated tank hunter weapons as they are only taking out 25 point models.
Alright fellas, I had been pretty comfortable for a few weeks with my 1999+1 list. Played a couple tourneys, a dozen casual games or so with it and had gotten 2 draws at my worst point until last night. Lost 5-3 in d3+1 obj mission vs. drop pod angels w/ mephiston... a tabling list... He ran
mephiston
10 DC w/ bolters / pod
9 dc w/ bolters + astorath / pod
10 vanguard vets all with dual hand flamers / pod
9 vanguard vets all dual hand flamers w/ sang priest / pod
5 assault marines / pod
stormraven w/ assault cannons/hurricane bolters/MM/missiles
i ran
biker boss
megaboss
6 biker nobs 1 bc 2 pk banner 1 of nobz is a painboy
6 meganobz 3 kombi skorcha w/ rolla wagon riggers rpj 2 bs 20 boyz pk nob
20 boyz pk nob
10gretchin
7 lootas
7 lootas
6 lootas
dakkajet fighta ace extra supa shoota
deffrolla wagon w/ 2 bsrpj and riggers
Mini bat rep
Spoiler:
Vanguard deployment 1 mid obj and 2 on each side 12" out from table edges
DEPLOYMENT:
BA had init. deployed mephiston behind a ruin where he couldn't be shot.
I held 7 lootas 10 grots in reserve and jet ofc
deployed lootas in ruins half of each group on top of ruins and half on bottom, spread out 20 boys on foot between them covering a large portion of my deployment zone. 2 wagons on east flank (i had south long edge).. 1 with 20 boyz and far one with MANZ...
BA T1:
drops 10 DC behind my lootas to shoot at my bikes
centrally drops 10 vanguard vets in front of lootas/boys and other 10 on other side near west flank... all combat squad.... after the west flank shot its handflamers... (9 guys x 2 hand flamers each..) had 1 boy left. on the east side of group 1" away from his other vanguard vets... who then roasted through him into the lootas killing him and that squad of lootas...
mephiston jumps into 3rd level of ruin 12" laterally from original position... leaving a gap fairly large charge thru cover
ORKS T1:
In response I drove manz and boys up to the central vets, dakka'd them, charged with manz and wiped 1. The manz going torward vets was probably a mistake. Originally I had planned on sending my megaboss and 6 manz torwards him... then letting him wreck their wagon and them assault him. I would refuse challenge and hopefully with 24 PK attacks manage to down him or at least win combat and not fail morale on a 7/get swept? I think not sending the MANZ after mephiston cost me the game because he did so much..
boyz failed charge on central vets and 7 died to overwatch... Major fail #2 there. should of just stayed in wagon and shot/not charged.
Lootas shot some stuff, did about nothing.
bikes shoot/charge dc and kill all but 3 due to rolling like 6 1's on PK attacks
BA T2:
assault marines land on their home obj on east flank way away from everything happening.
other DC land about 18" from middle of his board edge and fire bolters into boys
stormraven flies on, shoots gak out of meganobz, putting 2 wounds (i had consolidated into ruins)
other combat squad of vets w/ dual hand flamers and priest move up to meganobz and flame, causing another wound or 2... (when these guys fire... its like each template hits 5 models, and each of his vets have 2 templates... so 10 hits x 4 guys = 40 S3 hits... ouch)
Mephiston jumps over to boyz on foot, kills 5 with smite, charges and kills 5 more including the PK nob before he could swing. consolidates 1"
marines on west flank move torward lootas in ruins. roast entire squad of them. (interesting rules not here, if you have several marines with flamers, some shoot downstairs in a ruin and some upstairs... you cause 22 hits/11 wounds downstairs, and 6 hits/2 wounds upstairs.... You had 4 models downstairs and 3 up top.... Is the entire squad wiped because of the wound pool? Or does each floor have it's own wound pool?)
bikers finished off DC and consolidate 2 " west
ORKS T2:
Grots show up, jet doesn't, neither do lootas. grots walk in on east flank hiding behind ruin trying to get to obj.... ( i didnt realize mephiston would be able to get to them so easily with 12" movement and 3d6 drop lowest on charge range.....)
boyz wagon tank shocks mephiston who takes 3 hits passes saves and fails morale and falls back a few inches
manz wagon drives torward dC drop pod in their deployment, wrecking it, then rolling thru it and tank shocking the DC killing 1. (they sidestep)
manz charge other squad of flamer vets, munch them, consolidate back to ruins the were just in. took a wound or 2 from overwatch and fighting.
bikes shoot/charge squad w/ priest on west flank, killing all but priest... yet again, missed 3/4 of pk attacks, and the wounded with less than 1/3 that hit.. lol
BA T3:
Stormraven flies off board
mephiston wrecks the wagon that shocked him
dc wreck wagon that shocked them
his west priest dies finally
the other half of the west flank squad (that wasn't in squad with priest) got shot by lootas/wagons etc over various turns and reduced to just 2 men at this point) who move up and flame a single manz in ruins but cause no wounds
ORKS T3:
Dakkajet is still nowhere to be seen, lootas show up. walk them on centrally to get a good firing lane at mephiston/drop pod contesting my obj/stormraven and shoot at something, to no effect.
grots move/ruin into ruins by obj on east flank
Bikes move torward his other DC shoot/assault it, killing astorath, and about 4 marines.
manz assault 2 vets and kill both... manz reduced to 3 + boss at this point consolidate back torwards ruins for cover saves from missiles/melta but not all make it (i made a mistake here... half of squad was in area terrain so should have gotten a 5+ on guy out in open still unless he focus fired which he didnt...he shot multi melta and I just removed the unwounded nob (who woulda been ID'd anyways) who was closest/not in cover
BA T4:
Stormraven flies on and unloads on meganobz leaving me with a 2 wounds on boss, 1 wound on last meganob
Mephiston jumps torwards grots, makes the charge, wipes whole squad consolidates
DC stay locked with bikes by a single model or 2. I'm down to a PK nob. painboy, and biker boss... but still... 9 PK attacks vs 4 dudes... and 1 is left alive... not to mention the painboy? SMH! rollin all s!
stormbolters from pods have been shooting lootas or whatever they could here and there.
ORKS T4:
Jet flies in, waaaagh! and shoot at assault squad killing 3/5.... w/ 13 wounds.... >.< man i needed that..................
Bikes finish DC and consolidate torwards his obj (which i thought was 12" deployment zone... derped and forgot we were playing vanguard... opponent did too, lol both of thinking i'm scoring LB and 3 points... he had first blood and 1 obj so 4-4 at this point (we think at least lol)
Manz move torward obj but staying in cover (the fight with marines may have drug on antoher turn, because they wren't free to assault/blow up drop pod contesting west obj on my side.)
assault marines find some BLOS terrain so jet cant finish them off (might of hidden behind his drop pod... and in hindsight i should be able to shoot thru the drop pod?... don't think i had TLOS though... hard to tell since all his pod doors were up)...
ORKS T5: Bikes move forward as much as possible while still controlling obj. (getting distance from mephiston)... (we still think im getting LB at this point. lol)
Jet tries to shoot pod off my home obj and fails....
If it ends here... I have 1 obj, he has 1.... He has first blood... and we THINK i have linebreaker... so Looking like a tie...
We roll and it continues!
BA T6:
Mephiston jumps torwards bikes and runs
Assault marines play poker
stormraven hovers, goes 18" torwards bikes and unloads a gak ton of stuff but cause 2 wounds when dust settles but no models lost.
ORKS T6:
Bikes hang out..... We then realize deployment type and that I don't have linebreaker so hes up 4-3... > . <
Warboss w/ 1 wound left breaks off and explodes stormraven, which rolls a 6 to wound, and he fails his save and dies granting slay the warlord. I haven't checked the book yet, but I think S3 can hurt T6.
Roll again... and continues!
BA T7:
Mephiston jumps torwards bikes, needs a 11" charge and fails it. he is contesting their obj now though.
Orks T7:
Bikes turboboost to middle obj for 3 points.
Game ends, 5-3
Heading for his west obj instead of his east obj w/ 2 marines (by turbo boostin from t5) would of probably won me the game. My painboy and PK nob woulda made easy work of the 2 marines and shifted game to 4-2.... Hindsight!!!!
I was playing a bit rushed as they were closing up for the night about T7, and my gal had given me permission to go play that night... that seemed almost like a trap lol.. so was trying to finish quickly. Which I think contributed to some of my poor choices. He was a good player, and a really nice guy. I had never faced mephiston before and that was my major problem here today.
So.... What do you do to kill mephiston? I think I should of sent my MANZ after him. I think that would have been my only way of killing him. Just refuse challenge and hope the 24 PK attacks on charge and 18 per round can attrition him before he does enough ID thru their 2+ saves. (from force or s10)...
I don't ever bring a big mek with SAG, or zap guns, and rarely face him....
We are going to play an escalation league though, and this same fella plays 2 razorbacks w/ 5 marines and mephiston as his 500 list lol. it is.... rough. to say least (1 might be rhino, no idea, wasn't watching too closely..)
it got me thinking of my 500 list for league though... How would I deal with mephiston? If i brought gak loads of boys, he'll chew threw them all. If I bring bikes, the same... I feel like at 500 points I need to include 3 MANZ, and a megaboss, to counter him specifically? I would assume I would refuse with megaboss and let meganobz do the work if at all possible?
Playing tuesday night against this list, and reading FOB results regarding deamons. makes me want to switch my list up... Possibly drop 1 mega nob and reduce lootas to 5/5/6, add 2 truks and split the squad of 20 boys on foot into trukks and fill them out to 12 w/ kitted nobs? Figured this would give me escort units. Let 12 boys absorb overwatch so 20 boys can charge in, or let mega nobs eat overwatch for 12 boys to get in or vice versa.
Strangely enough I almost didn't wreck the stormraven for fear of my boss.. lol but didn't want to risk letting it shoot at me another turn and kill off my troops.
My opponent thought it was odd I ran to middle obj for 3 points instead of attempting to kill mephiston.... He had 4 wounds left, I had 3 wounds in my bike pool... 2 on painboy and 1 on nob... we played painboy as a character, so could have easily chosen to make me not get to attack with both bikes. ... and i would have had to score 4 wounds on him... lol... I felt I would rather lose 3-5 and not get tabled, than lose 0-5 and get tabled... No guts no glory I guess
I've only ever played against Mephiston twice and the last time was in 5th. He single handely killed 9 Killa Kanz without taking a single wound. I would certainly encourage focusing everything you have against him now knowing what he can do.
I've never heard of a list containing units with dual hand flames, sounds like fun. I have a feelin that if you played the exact same lists, and even if he went first again that you'd do better against him. Seems like a 1 trick pony Alpha Strike.
PipeAlley wrote: I've only ever played against Mephiston twice and the last time was in 5th. He single handely killed 9 Killa Kanz without taking a single wound. I would certainly encourage focusing everything you have against him now knowing what he can do.
I've never heard of a list containing units with dual hand flames, sounds like fun. I have a feelin that if you played the exact same lists, and even if he went first again that you'd do better against him. Seems like a 1 trick pony Alpha Strike.
9 killa kans? ROUGH. He killed 10 grots, 10 boys, nob, battlewagon, and 7 lootas solo in my game and I thought that was bad >.<
I had 2 approaches....
Throw meganobs at him (kitchen sink included) (possibly squad of boys as well)... can stop PK swings from warboss but not 6 meganobs pk nob from boys and 19 boys... but hard to get that many in B2B/2" circle around a single infantry..
or... ignore him entirely and focus on the rest of the board, which is what I tried... I didn't realize he was so GD mobile though.
I agree, I feel like I will do much better next time I play this chap. Currently working on some 500 point lists that should be fun hehehe!
@ matphat I wish I had my biker boss complete to add to the thread, all I have are some WIP shots in my gallery and he looks like a weedy git compared to some of those!
The one time I went up against Mephiston was in an Apoc game. He solo'd my Gargant, chopping its arm off and proceeding to stab it to death in a single round.
3 MANZ 1 kombi skorcha w/ trukk w/ ram (165)
9 boys w/ PKBP nob 1 big shoota w/ trukk + ram (145)
10 boys w/ nob w/ bp (75)
Megaboss rides with manz or boys depending on needs... If I'm worried about challenges with someone, put megaboss with boys so nob can challenge and warboss can murder... (not to mention using his 2+ armor save from shooting attacks for the boyz... but denying them overwatch/run/sweeping)
If not worried about challenges can leave megaboss with manz for LD9/BP (and also still use boyz to sweep
(purpose would be to escalate to my 1999+1 revised list)
Will post ideas about biker list @ 500 after lunch etc!
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Anvildude wrote: The one time I went up against Mephiston was in an Apoc game. He solo'd my Gargant, chopping its arm off and proceeding to stab it to death in a single round.
in 6th, manz are great vs him since his sword is only AP3 so you get your armor save still, and you will wound him on 3s (?). Also he has no invul so they are instant wounds.
Billagio wrote: in 6th, manz are great vs him since his sword is only AP3 so you get your armor save still, and you will wound him on 3s (?). Also he has no invul so they are instant wounds.
Billagio wrote: in 6th, manz are great vs him since his sword is only AP3 so you get your armor save still, and you will wound him on 3s (?). Also he has no invul so they are instant wounds.
He is T6 so no ID
Manz would also always wound him on a 2 since they've got S8 with PK's. Of course, if it's anything like where I play, the blood angel players always put biomancy on mephiston and give him iron arm if possible, making him T7-9
Billagio wrote: in 6th, manz are great vs him since his sword is only AP3 so you get your armor save still, and you will wound him on 3s (?). Also he has no invul so they are instant wounds.
He is T6 so no ID
Manz would also always wound him on a 2 since they've got S8 with PK's. Of course, if it's anything like where I play, the blood angel players always put biomancy on mephiston and give him iron arm if possible, making him T7-9
Yes they wont ID him, but they do wound him with no saves, which is about as efficent as anything gets when attacking him.
And sorry, I thought he was T7 :/ I think I got his Toughness and Initaive mixed up.
I want to take Mephiston now with my BA.... Granted, if the Angels player is getting charged by MANZ, he's doing it wrong. All those powerklaw attacks should kill him at some point. Ghazghkull Thraka might be an answer. Just WAAGH! right before you get into combat with him. Or Old Zogwort. Though that's not nearly as effective as Ghazzy. Other than that, a SAG might work out.
virx67 wrote: I want to take Mephiston now with my BA.... Granted, if the Angels player is getting charged by MANZ, he's doing it wrong. All those powerklaw attacks should kill him at some point. Ghazghkull Thraka might be an answer. Just WAAGH! right before you get into combat with him. Or Old Zogwort. Though that's not nearly as effective as Ghazzy. Other than that, a SAG might work out.
I think a MAB might work even, but he dosent have EW so if you fail your save you are dead.
Yeah actually outside of MANZ the only solution is Ghazzy.
SAG probably wouldnt work that well. If you hit him, your only wounding him once a turn. Hoping for that thing to roll a double 6 is just ludicrous. Ive been running a SAG lately and still havnt had any of those crazy results happen yet. Although, my best shot to date, was popping 2 riflemen dreads in one go. Taught that SM player why you dont keep units like that so close to one another.
The best way to go would probably be Old Zogwort. Wait for him, roll a dice, cross fingers.
He's also capable in close combat and has T5/W3 + Nest of Vipers. Not bad for 145 points.
Bonzofever wrote: The best way to go would probably be Old Zogwort. Wait for him, roll a dice, cross fingers.
He's also capable in close combat and has T5/W3 + Nest of Vipers. Not bad for 145 points.
Btw, how many points is Mephiston worth?
10% more than Ghazgull or equal to a stock LR.
Mephiston has an AP3 sword though, and can be S10 for ID. Does old zog even have an invuln? Makes me think he would make quick work. I had thought of the squig ability though... but Mephiston is I7.... so would he still fail an INIT check by rolling a ?
Honestly I hadn't thought of bringing ghaz... I could easily do that... Let him break off and munch mephiston solo... I mean C'mon.. I think ghazgul can take mephiston solo myself... Only chance mephiston would have I think is if he got a lot of wounds through 5+ (or 2+ if he wagghed them to shrug em off) with "smite" had he taken it prior to charging.
That would leave mega nobz to kill something else nearby... hmmm...
I worry about letting a normal mega boss duel with mephiston because of ID via force sword or S10, like others have said.. just has to get a single wound through at S10 or pass an LD check... (3 powers a turn ughhh)
Thanks for responses fellas. I might have to make a point to include ol ghazzy instead of my normal boss. Not sure yet though... hmmmmmmm
You are dealing with it wrong if it gets into close combat. You should seriously be taking this guy by shoot him to death. Think what would you do with terminators or monstrous creatures and apply it to him. The main problem is obviously is T6 and the fact that as a single 28mm he can hide pretty well. But high strength shooting like the one provided by lootas, burnas, cannons and on a desperate occasion boyz with shootas and big shootas.
Remember the moto, chop the shooty ones shoot the choppy ones
2+ saves and wounding on 3's instead of 2's.. Coupled with an alpha strike that cut down my dakka considerably... (in my example above)
I shot him with 7 lootas at one point, causing 3 saves, shot him with big shootas, causing 3 saves, hit him with deffrolla 3 times, made all saves, 2+ is hard to get thru without heavy rate of fire, and with his jump pack/small size he can easily hide from most firing lanes. Heck I shot him with bikers on obj (only 2 bikes left) and caused 0 wounds.. the T6 is hard to wound, not to mention 5 wounds and 2+ save... I never knew he didn't have an invuln in game or else I would have probably for sure slammed my meganobz into him. Hindsight!
I feel like shooting him with anything buy AP2 is almost a waste. I would rather put those deffgun shots into normal marines, rokkits into death company ( fnp), and shoota boy dakka into something they plan on assaulting afterwards..
I could try sicking nob bikers on him, and they might do alright.. but I feel like he could get quite a few casualties threw and potentially sweep whole group if I rolled unluckily.
I just realized Zogwort won't work. His squig power only afffects Independant characters, and Mephiston isn't an independant character. Weight of fire should bring him down. That or Ghazzy are the only two things I can think of that'd work.
can tarpit 1 turn with challenge from ea runtherd... everyturn not in a challenge he will kill 5-6 grots probably and then force you to pass LD 5 or 7 with a -5 or 6 modifier and most likely sweep the unit...
So if you had 3 runtherders could tie him up for 1.5 game turns but on that 4th player turn of combat mephiston will most likely sweep the remaining 20+ grots I would think.
Glad to hear people drop him in 1 round w/ 5 MANZ.
Anvildude wrote: Remember that Grabbin' Stikks reduce attacks by 1 for each in base contact- pulling 3 attacks off him should help.
ah yeah, i remembered that at time of game but i only had 10 grots and 1 runtherder. I also issued a challenge to protect the grots. so reduced him by 1 attack... i figure that it would be smart to issue a challenge every turn to make mephiston waste 5 attacks on a single model. I figure he wouldnt ever be in a hurry to issue a challenge to a herder when he could kill half a dozen grots
skyfi wrote: 10% more than Ghazgull or equal to a stock LR. Mephiston has an AP3 sword though, and can be S10 for ID. Does old zog even have an invuln? Makes me think he would make quick work. I had thought of the squig ability though... but Mephiston is I7.... so would he still fail an INIT check by rolling a ?
Actually I was thinking about the Squig power, it's not an initiative roll, just a basic roll which doesn't arm Zogwort if you fail. But I forgot something, just like people have pointed out! Mephiston is not an IC... So yeah, actually you'd better throw either Ghazghkull or MANz in his pretty face.
skyfi wrote: 10% more than Ghazgull or equal to a stock LR.
Mephiston has an AP3 sword though, and can be S10 for ID. Does old zog even have an invuln? Makes me think he would make quick work. I had thought of the squig ability though... but Mephiston is I7.... so would he still fail an INIT check by rolling a ?
Actually I was thinking about the Squig power, it's not an initiative roll, just a basic roll which doesn't arm Zogwort if you fail.
But I forgot something, just like people have pointed out! Mephiston is not an IC... So yeah, actually you'd better throw either Ghazghkull or MANz in his pretty face.
ahhh for some reason I was thinking it worked like JOWW
Yea I didnt know how much he was. I have to say, now knowing, its not SO bad hearing how much ass he kicks. Thatd be like getting pissed that a flamestorm burninated half a boyz mob. It just happens. But yea sounds like an easy way to deal with Mr "Im a friggin Primarch" Mephiston is to introduce him to some MegaArmored Nobz, looking to add a pretty impressive trophy to their already pretty impressive trophy racks
Unfortunatly I would think that any BA player worth his salt will know to keep him away from MANz. Then again im sure they arnt used to things being able to kill him (especially from orks) so maybe he'll be over zealous. I cant wait to see the look on a players face when he gets cut in half by 120pts of MANz in 1-2 turns.
Ok, so I plan on playing my first game of sixth today. I've got a green tide going, and a fair grasp of the rules. Got any tips that I should know before I go into the match? I mainly plan on just swamping objectives, and holding them for the rest of the game, and then shooting/charging anything that comes close. Anything else I should know about before I go play?
Yeah make sure you keep spread. Also, dont forget to overwatch things that charge you and that charge distances are 2d6 instead of 6in, so you cant reliably charge something all the time.
Billagio wrote: Unfortunatly I would think that any BA player worth his salt will know to keep him away from MANz. Then again im sure they arnt used to things being able to kill him (especially from orks) so maybe he'll be over zealous. I cant wait to see the look on a players face when he gets cut in half by 120pts of MANz in 1-2 turns.
The problem with this logic, is Ork players have a very cheap way to get those MANz and what have you into combat with him. They are called trukks. Thanks to 6th, they can cover 24 inches a turn if not assaulting from them. So turn one, 24 inches gone. Turn 2, move 6 more inches, then disembark 6 inches. So thats a total of 36 inches, AND THEN charge moves. Soooooo how exactly would you keep him out of combat?
Granted this is in a vacuum and assuming the trukk doesnt meat its untimely end. But the point still stands, we have the means to cover an entire table by turn 2.
He'll probably be buried behind rhinos, Dreads, or 20-60 assualt marines. If the BA player is running him infront of everything, he deserves to lose Mephiston. That's how I would run him, buried behind everything and then popping out and smashing weakened stuff.
Billagio wrote: Unfortunatly I would think that any BA player worth his salt will know to keep him away from MANz. Then again im sure they arnt used to things being able to kill him (especially from orks) so maybe he'll be over zealous. I cant wait to see the look on a players face when he gets cut in half by 120pts of MANz in 1-2 turns.
The problem with this logic, is Ork players have a very cheap way to get those MANz and what have you into combat with him. They are called trukks. Thanks to 6th, they can cover 24 inches a turn if not assaulting from them. So turn one, 24 inches gone. Turn 2, move 6 more inches, then disembark 6 inches. So thats a total of 36 inches, AND THEN charge moves. Soooooo how exactly would you keep him out of combat?
Granted this is in a vacuum and assuming the trukk doesnt meat its untimely end. But the point still stands, we have the means to cover an entire table by turn 2.
Well like the poster before me said, other things can block path, plus he has the psychic power Wings of Sanguinis or something, which basically makes him jump infantry. Not as if he can outrun a trukk or something, but he is more mobile than a normal model. Hes also a single model unit, so is a lot more mobile than a squad.
Not saying that he will get away, just saying that a smart BA player will do what he can to keep him away from manz.
PipeAlley wrote: Last week in addition to the above listed units I ran 4 mobs of Bikerboyz as follows, 3 bikes, one as Nob with BC for a total of 90 points a piece. I also ran 3 units of Deffkoptas 2x3 and 1x2. BikerBosses ran with the 3 strong deffkopta units and Waz with the 2-strong unit. I was going to outflank those 3 units if I went second but in the end I went first and lined up the 3 Deffkopta units each wih a boss in a row and interspersed my 4 Bikerboyz units. Behind that wall of cover were the 2 Trukks full of Manz.
So I had six fast Troops units. I figured I'd go cheap with the BikerNobz since I felt I had PK's toenough spare. I really like the cheap BikerBoyz Nobz that can take/issue challenges to the scarier opp. HQ's as long as they all can get into assault.
Anywho I learned a lot that game since it was my first game without a mob of foot boyz in half a decade I think.
So next game it'll be 5 x 90 point Bikermobz, 1 unit of 3 Rokkit Deffkoptas, 2 units of 3 MANz missiles one with MAB. And of course Lootas.
Here's the plan: run all 3 BikerBosses with any single unit of Bikerboyz if I get first turn or with the 3 Deffkoptas if I go second. Wih the rule of majority toughness, that unit will all count as T6! Basically Orks pretending to be Grey Wolves 4 HQTWC. The bosses will be far enough away from each other that LoS rolls will transfer to the Bikerboyz or Deffkoptas.
Could you please share the full list you played with 3 Biker Bosses, MAB and so on? I'd very much like to go into detail.
How did you play the biker nobz? Some with BC and BP, Waaagh Banner, Painboy?
I'm trying to create a biker-themed army and yours sounds great enough for starters.
virx67 wrote:He'll probably be buried behind rhinos, Dreads, or 20-60 assualt marines. If the BA player is running him infront of everything, he deserves to lose Mephiston. That's how I would run him, buried behind everything and then popping out and smashing weakened stuff.
Billagio wrote: Unfortunatly I would think that any BA player worth his salt will know to keep him away from MANz. Then again im sure they arnt used to things being able to kill him (especially from orks) so maybe he'll be over zealous. I cant wait to see the look on a players face when he gets cut in half by 120pts of MANz in 1-2 turns.
The problem with this logic, is Ork players have a very cheap way to get those MANz and what have you into combat with him. They are called trukks. Thanks to 6th, they can cover 24 inches a turn if not assaulting from them. So turn one, 24 inches gone. Turn 2, move 6 more inches, then disembark 6 inches. So thats a total of 36 inches, AND THEN charge moves. Soooooo how exactly would you keep him out of combat?
Granted this is in a vacuum and assuming the trukk doesnt meat its untimely end. But the point still stands, we have the means to cover an entire table by turn 2.
Well like the poster before me said, other things can block path, plus he has the psychic power Wings of Sanguinis or something, which basically makes him jump infantry. Not as if he can outrun a trukk or something, but he is more mobile than a normal model. Hes also a single model unit, so is a lot more mobile than a squad.
Not saying that he will get away, just saying that a smart BA player will do what he can to keep him away from manz.
Which brings back to the WAY one is suppose to play a MANz missile unit. Bring it in a few turns (around 3 is usually good) and then go balls out. Basically a MANz missile is an assassination unit that you have up your sleeve. So sure, there will be a bunch of other units on the table, but by turn 3 many of those units will either be gone or locked in combat. So yea, those boyz that Mephiston is bashing the gak out of, well they were really just to hold that poor sucker in place or whatever would be appropriate.
And if you BA players are hiding him behind your whole army.....well......nice waste of over 200 points I guess.
Hmm, hadn't thought of using MANZ like that. Makes sense though.
Anyways, I ended up playing against a friend who's collecting Eldar. He couldn't field much, so we played about 1250 pts.
My list:
1 Warboss 1 5 man loota squad 4x 30 man Choppa boyz, w/ Nob + 3x Bigshootas 3x Deffkoptas
He fielded 9 Scatter lasers warwalkers, Eldrad, one squad of striking scorpions, and three squads of Dire Avengers.
We rolled for the mission, and got Purge the Alien. I was hoping for an objective game, but this is were everything started to go wrong.
We roll off, and he gets first turn. We then deploy, and I roll to sieze the initiative. I fail.
First Turn, Eldar: He nukes my Lootas, and proceedes to take out my Warboss, and 16 of my boyz and the nob in one squad. I forgot about LoS,which would have helped me immensly. He scores first blood, and a point for killing my warboss.
First Turn, Orks: I move up the field, and shoot all Deffkoptas at a squad of war walkers. I then glance one to death, and pretty much end my turn. I also get the VP for crossing his deployment line.
Second Turn, Eldar: He then proceedes to nuke two of my Deffkoptas, and almost wipes out an ork squad. He whittles it down to about 8 boyz. He gets two VP's for killing my Deffkoptas.
Second Turn, Orks: I move up, and shoot his WW's. I proceed to kill off another.
Third Turn, Eldar: He then assualts his Dire Avengers into my other Deffkopta. I make all saves except one, leaving the Kopta with one wound. He also rips into the small boyz squad, leaving one boy left.
Third Turn, Orks: I hide my lone boy, determined not to give him any more VP's. I then proceed to kill off the last WW with one of my squads, and move up one more. I then charge the striking scorpions with my Boyz squad, and wipe them out. Unfortunately, he kills my Deffkopta in the process, but oh well.
We are running low on time, so we call the fourth turn the last one.
Fourth Turn, Eldar: He rips into my orks with more scatter lasers. Not much else happens. One of my Nobz makes 7 LoS saves, and then dies. Was pretty cool.
Fourth Turn, Orks: I assualt his Dire Avengers, and almost wipe them out. Unfortunately, not much else happens.
Eldar: 6 VP's (I think) Orks: 3 VP's (crossing the line, Striking Scorpions, and WW's)
What I learned: Mass choppa attacks is beautiful. Still as awesome as before. 100+ attacks will just destroy anything. Footslogging armies are painfully slow. Hull Points are really cool. I'm liking the changes. Look out Sir is amazing. Unfortunately I don't remember it enough. Lootas would have been better at a longer range. Instead, I put them within range of the WW's, and they died. Plus I needed way more. Deffkopta's just didn't perform as well as I had hoped. 5 up cover saves really change the durability of an army.
I used to play a Kan wall in 5th, so I thought I could use most of the same tactics. Unfortunately, I didn't do too well. This was the first game of sixth for both of us, so we probably missed some of the rules. Overall, though, I liked the changes. I probably won't play a Choppa horde again anytime soon, as I feel it just has too many weaknesses. Battlewagons are what I foresee in the future of my Orks. This loss was mainly due to errors on my part, as I didn't take any of the right units, and more Lootas camping would have certainly ruined the WW's. Deffkoptas aren't that great. I doubt I will field them again. 6th has a lot of cool rules, and I look forward to playing more games.
One thing I will say is if youre playing a footslogging list like that, you should def take a KFF unless there is a ton of terrain. Now that casualties are taken from the front, you really want to minimize casualties. Im a bigger fan of shootas myself even in 5th. Overwatch is great on shoota boyz, plus just shooting in general, but if you like choppa boyz more, more power to ya.
I love BW lists, even in 6th. Its 4HP and if you get a big mek in there, theyre pretty tough to take out.
Well, Id still say take a KFF even if there IS a bunch of cover. Focus fire can laugh at us when we have big ass blobs of units. Its plenty hard/stupid to pile 30 boyz behind a pillar. They will either focus fire at what doesnt have a cover save. Ouch. Or, they will bring a pie plate from somewhere, and drop it on all those perfectly bunch up boyz. Ouch.
Even with only a 5+ cover, the KFF still is a great idea when slogging it.
Yep. That's one of the things I regret taking that matchup. A KFF mek would be fantastic. It was a bit boring moving all those models, so I probably won't play a green tide for a little while. However, KFF meks are still worth thier weight in gold. I'll be taking them in every Ork list I write up now.
Dakkajets and burna bommas are great. Dakkajets especially. They murder light armour and other fliers. Ghaz ain't what he used to be though. with the change to fleet, his Waaaagh! is useless.
DakkaJet can take out a squad a turn, especially with Ghaz's Waaagh!
What would you guys use to take on an IG list with 2-4 Chimeras (assume 10 man squads in 2 and 5 man squads in the other 2), 2 Leman russes, and 2 heavy weapons squads? I'm having the most trouble with the transports and Leman Russes. I can pop the transports pretty reliably Turn 2 / 3, but then I get eaten alive the next turn by the troops that spill out. I'm running 2 20 man shoota mobs (2 big shoota, nob w/ pk), a BW with deffrolla and 10 burnas, dakka jet, 3 kannons, and ghaz at 1k.
virx67 wrote: It was a bit boring moving all those models, so I probably won't play a green tide for a little while.
This is exactly the reason why I've almost never played a footslogging ork army. Moving 70+ models in one turn is boring while playing 40K should be fun
Wingeds wrote: DakkaJet can take out a squad a turn, especially with Ghaz's Waaagh!
What would you guys use to take on an IG list with 2-4 Chimeras (assume 10 man squads in 2 and 5 man squads in the other 2), 2 Leman russes, and 2 heavy weapons squads? I'm having the most trouble with the transports and Leman Russes. I can pop the transports pretty reliably Turn 2 / 3, but then I get eaten alive the next turn by the troops that spill out. I'm running 2 20 man shoota mobs (2 big shoota, nob w/ pk), a BW with deffrolla and 10 burnas, dakka jet, 3 kannons, and ghaz at 1k.
That's odd, I never thought about using Ghaz's Waaagh for Dakkajets. This could work great.
To counter that IG army, I'd say drop Ghazghkull and Burnas and play a couple units of Lootas along with 1 or 2 Dakkajets to pop light vehicles or deal heavy damage on infantry. I'd try 3 Deffkoptaz + Boss Biker to take down heavy weapon squad / LR with kombi skorcha / twin-linked rokkits. Then max out the number of boyz and use KFF Big Mek for cover save against LRs and shoots.
HQ ---
1x Boss Biker
1x KFF Big Mek
Elites
---
5x Lootas
5x Lootas
Troops
---
20x Shootaboyz
20x Shootaboyz
Fast Attack
---
1x Dakkajet
1x Dakkajet
3x Deffkoptaz
You may drop one or two Dakkajets to keep one or two BWs with Deff Rolla for use with the KFF.
The only game I lost against IG was because I didn't use cover for my boyz. If you have to make them wait in ruins for a couple of turns, just do it and claim objectives in the last two turns!
I dont mind moving all those bodies around. Ive learned over the years how to move a blob pretty quickly. The only time I get annoyed by it, is when you roll a poor run move. Moving 20-30 boyz 1 or 2 inches just sucks.
MY DAKKAjet story so far, is been pretty good. I like to save my WAAAGH! for either that perfect setup with thejet, OR when youve been forced to Jink and can only fire in snapshots. Then rolling all 6s isnt so bad when you 18 rerolls to toss around Works rather well for me since I dont use my WAAAGH! too much for charging. Though I must admit, I seem to use it for charging way more in 6th then I ever did in 5th. Hell I could go entire games without WAAAGH! in 5th
KingCracker wrote: I dont mind moving all those bodies around. Ive learned over the years how to move a blob pretty quickly. The only time I get annoyed by it, is when you roll a poor run move. Moving 20-30 boyz 1 or 2 inches just sucks.
This is why you ask your opponent if they mind you rolling your run distance in the movement phase and make a single move rather than two.
Is shooting a space marine bike/ land speeder army to pieces with dakkajets a viable option? It seems that if I take lootas, he'll just blitz the hell out of them with his land speeders and wipe them all out by turn 2. It's so frustrating.
CuddlySquig wrote: Is shooting a space marine bike/ land speeder army to pieces with dakkajets a viable option? It seems that if I take lootas, he'll just blitz the hell out of them with his land speeders and wipe them all out by turn 2. It's so frustrating.
Wrap/protect. Prioritize shooting to prevent it from happening.
KingCracker wrote: I dont mind moving all those bodies around. Ive learned over the years how to move a blob pretty quickly. The only time I get annoyed by it, is when you roll a poor run move. Moving 20-30 boyz 1 or 2 inches just sucks.
This is why you ask your opponent if they mind you rolling your run distance in the movement phase and make a single move rather than two.
I have had quite a number of player refuse that for some reason though. Unsure why.
As for mephiston, if he has his default power I shoot him with everything I have before drowning him in boyz. Even if every one of his attacks connects, he needs about three combat phases to get through them, while taking some wounds in the process. Considering that Mephiston is more expensive than a mob of boyz, that's a good deal. If he trades away his powers, he is a slowpoke as he no longer has wings of blood. Block him with buggies, trukks, koptaz or (best) with dakka jets. Nothing beats forcing a 200+ point model to use up it's entire movement phase to get around a model they can't assault. Just put your blocking model right where Mephiston would move next, and watch the Lord of Death smash a 40 point trukk instead of contributing anything useful to the game.
I dont know BA very well, as Ive literally never l;ooked at their codex. But why cant he assault the buggies?
Automatically Appended Next Post: But to add to that, thats something Ive found awesome with buggies currently. They are so cheap, I use them to just charge down the table and block off areas of the board. So the unit that has been blocked either moves around, or wastes their turn shooting/assaulting the units to get them out of the way. Last game, I used 1 whole squadron of rokkit buggies to soak up half of my opponents army for a couple turns. Turn 1 they zipped up and blocked LOS to some scouts with a rokkit launcher. So they wasted that shooting phase popping only 1 buggy. Then the other 2 next turn raced up and right into the grill of a LR redeemer. So he wasted the shots from THAT unit as well to shoot them out of the way, and only killed off one, so a near by unit of bikes wasted their shots so the LR could continue next turn.
Not bad for only 105pts. Part of me is thinking of just leaving the rokkits OFF the buggies and sticking with Bigshootas. Cheaper, and more shots. The rokkits hit nothing on 3 squadrons worth the whole game. So I think If Im just going to mostly use them for controlling the board, with the added help of peppering other units, Ill just keep em cheap.
I was referring to the dakka jet. It has a huge base that is hard to get arround when you can't assault it. Of course, he can assault buggies and trukks, but he doesn't really want to - since he traded away his S10 buff, there even is a chance of him failing to destroy them.
AHHhhhhh that makes loads more sense I was sitting here for a good ten minutes pondering over how he couldnt assault a buggy.
Agreed, thats what I was finding with running 9 of them a few weeks ago. Theres so many there, and small arms probably wont KO one thanks to the HP deal. Also add in the fact that as cheap as they are, your opponent IS GOING TO WASTE POINTS dealing with them. Again, a rokkit buggy is only 35pts, so yea, go ahead Mephiston, attack that unit to get past them, I dont care. Buggies are very different to what you typically field and use, because they arnt really there to kick in some teef, they are more there to annoy your opponent and and allow you to set yourself up for a perfect (more like better anyways) shot/assault.
And Im planning on running a revised version of my old Trukk mob with a bunch of them in there for the same effect. Block LOS, harass my opponent and mostly take fire away from my trukk mobs/BW rushing in
I like getting rid of the glory hogz rule (if it was gotten rid of or just modified) because that made tankbusting tough. and I wish they would modify the rules for looted wagons, maybe give them better armour and make it so they are competitive against enemy vehicles.
cox.dan2 wrote: I like getting rid of the glory hogz rule (if it was gotten rid of or just modified) because that made tankbusting tough. and I wish they would modify the rules for looted wagons, maybe give them better armour and make it so they are competitive against enemy vehicles.
How exactly? You're just forced to fire at vehicles if they are present, rather than fire at non-vehicles. The only real downside to the Tankbusting capability is being forced to attempt an assault against a vehicle you'd rather not assault.
Overall though, I'd like to see the Tankbustas get some additional rules to give them some more "oomph", like Tank Hunters.
Glory Hogs wasn't removed, simply re-worded to be better. Essentially, if you're within 24", you still have to Shoot the vehicle. If you're not in range, you have to (I think) either attempt to get into range, or you're free to do whatever.
I have had quite a number of player refuse that for some reason though. Unsure why.
I believe they feel that if you know your entire movement for a turn, it will affect your move more then the randomness of a run distance. If you don't know exactly what you can move, you may strand some troops in the open.
I dunno. Of course, I use to just roll 2 dice for my tl rokkits and if either hit then it was a hit until I had a guy say the probability was different between rolling 2 dice and rolling one die, picking it up and rolling it again if i missed.
@KC concerning rokkits on buggies. I think the loadout depends on your strategy. If your using the buggys to deny movement and jam stuff up, maybe cheaper is better. I still use mine with rokkits for vehicle hunting, to peg stuff hiding from my tankbustas, and big gunz. Those ork units are pretty static, and its nice to have some fast tankhunters that can tear up the field and get decent angles on some vehicles' armor.
KingCracker wrote: I dont know BA very well, as Ive literally never l;ooked at their codex. But why cant he assault the buggies?
Automatically Appended Next Post: But to add to that, thats something Ive found awesome with buggies currently. They are so cheap, I use them to just charge down the table and block off areas of the board. So the unit that has been blocked either moves around, or wastes their turn shooting/assaulting the units to get them out of the way. Last game, I used 1 whole squadron of rokkit buggies to soak up half of my opponents army for a couple turns. Turn 1 they zipped up and blocked LOS to some scouts with a rokkit launcher. So they wasted that shooting phase popping only 1 buggy. Then the other 2 next turn raced up and right into the grill of a LR redeemer. So he wasted the shots from THAT unit as well to shoot them out of the way, and only killed off one, so a near by unit of bikes wasted their shots so the LR could continue next turn.
Not bad for only 105pts. Part of me is thinking of just leaving the rokkits OFF the buggies and sticking with Bigshootas. Cheaper, and more shots. The rokkits hit nothing on 3 squadrons worth the whole game. So I think If Im just going to mostly use them for controlling the board, with the added help of peppering other units, Ill just keep em cheap.
Thoughts??
Yeah, i'm thinking of running DeffKoptas without Rokkits, they have been doing so little lately.
PipeAlley wrote: Last week in addition to the above listed units I ran 4 mobs of Bikerboyz as follows, 3 bikes, one as Nob with BC for a total of 90 points a piece. I also ran 3 units of Deffkoptas 2x3 and 1x2. BikerBosses ran with the 3 strong deffkopta units and Waz with the 2-strong unit. I was going to outflank those 3 units if I went second but in the end I went first and lined up the 3 Deffkopta units each wih a boss in a row and interspersed my 4 Bikerboyz units. Behind that wall of cover were the 2 Trukks full of Manz.
So I had six fast Troops units. I figured I'd go cheap with the BikerNobz since I felt I had PK's toenough spare. I really like the cheap BikerBoyz Nobz that can take/issue challenges to the scarier opp. HQ's as long as they all can get into assault.
Anywho I learned a lot that game since it was my first game without a mob of foot boyz in half a decade I think.
So next game it'll be 5 x 90 point Bikermobz, 1 unit of 3 Rokkit Deffkoptas, 2 units of 3 MANz missiles one with MAB. And of course Lootas.
Here's the plan: run all 3 BikerBosses with any single unit of Bikerboyz if I get first turn or with the 3 Deffkoptas if I go second. Wih the rule of majority toughness, that unit will all count as T6! Basically Orks pretending to be Grey Wolves 4 HQTWC. The bosses will be far enough away from each other that LoS rolls will transfer to the Bikerboyz or Deffkoptas.
Could you please share the full list you played with 3 Biker Bosses, MAB and so on? I'd very much like to go into detail.
How did you play the biker nobz? Some with BC and BP, Waaagh Banner, Painboy?
I'm trying to create a biker-themed army and yours sounds great enough for starters.
Here's the exact list:
2000 points
HQ Wazdakka
BikerBoss with PK, AS, Cybork x 2
MegaBoss AS, Cybork
Elites
7 Lootas x 3
Troops
3 MegaNobz plus Trukk with RR x2
3 Warbikers Nob upgrade BC x 4
Fast Attack
3 Deffkoptas with Rokkits x 2
2 Deffkoptas with Rokkits
The plan was originally to run both BikerBosses with a unit of 3-strong Deffkoptas and Waz with the unit of the 2 Deffkoptas. It worked pretty well against Space Wolves the first week but the Deffkoptas were generally disappointing.
i didn't have enough time to redo my list for this past week against Blood Angels/Space Wolves allies. I got stomped by 20 Assault Marines and 4 of the Golden Guys and Some Force Psyker and of course, Long Fangs.
So anywho the new list is going to be:
2000 points
HQ Wazdakka
BikerBoss with PK, AS, Cybork x 2
MegaBoss AS, Cybork
Elites
7 Lootas x 3
Troops
3 MegaNobz plus Trukk with RR x2
7 NobBikers with Banner and Painboy
3 Warbikers Nob upgrade BC x 3
Fast Attack
3 Deffkoptas with Twin Big Shootas
I was thinking of running just 3 NobBikers and run all three Bosses with them for T6 majority 6 model unit but considering how much fire power it will probably attract I'll either run the 3 Bosses with the Deffkoptas if I want to outflank or a unit of Bikes or maybe just run them with the 7 Nobz after all. They won't be T6 majority but the FNP and Banner perks will hopefully make up for it.
It's going to take many weeks to figure out the best way to run them but it'll be fun as hell in the mean time. Unfortunately I won't be able to play for at least 3 weeks since I'm back in FL for training again and then Thanksgiving, but it you or anyone else tries something similiar, I'd love to hear about it.
I got a feeling I've stumbled onto something here and now just need to tweek and experiment with it. Like I mentioned in a previous post, this is really Orks pretending to be Space Wolves TWHQ's with TWC deathstar.
PipeAlley - I run a unit of koptas with my biker boss, and they are just stock (though I will add a buzzsaw if points permit) and the amount of shooting from that unit is just crazy! Trust me, they are worth it. TL bigshootas is badass and 15 TL str5 @36inches is nothing to sneeze at, that can lay MEQ down pretty consistently. Add to that, they can smoke a light transport with little effort as well
KingCracker wrote: PipeAlley - I run a unit of koptas with my biker boss, and they are just stock (though I will add a buzzsaw if points permit) and the amount of shooting from that unit is just crazy! Trust me, they are worth it. TL bigshootas is badass and 15 TL str5 @36inches is nothing to sneeze at, that can lay MEQ down pretty consistently. Add to that, they can smoke a light transport with little effort as well
Yeah, if my Lootas can't hurt it, i.e. Armor 14, then I'll just let the PK's take care of it.
KingCracker wrote: PipeAlley - I run a unit of koptas with my biker boss, and they are just stock (though I will add a buzzsaw if points permit) and the amount of shooting from that unit is just crazy! Trust me, they are worth it. TL bigshootas is badass and 15 TL str5 @36inches is nothing to sneeze at, that can lay MEQ down pretty consistently. Add to that, they can smoke a light transport with little effort as well
Man, I wish Big Meks had deffkopta as an option. That would be mental.
I really like this idea! Up till now, I have pretty much left my deffkoptas packed away out of disgust. My squads would take one round of shooting and run off the board. A HQ w/ a bosspole will hold them. I normally use my bikers as a mobile firebase vs infantry, but deffkoptas have longer range at 36" vs 18" on bikes.
I think keeping them in the game with better staying power outweighs what you lose: jetbike and "hit and run" attaching a Boss to them. You can even take 5 in a unit.
I really need to think this one out cause bikes have the invuln save.
Ascalam wrote: Bikes have a cover save, Jetbikes do these days too as long as they are moving (jink)
I wish they had an invuln save, as several of my usual opponents love their flamers and ignores-cover weapons...
This is what gives them staying power. First turn, you move and then turboboost. So the Bike has its normal 4+ cover, and since you turboboosted, the jets ALSO have a 4+ jink save if you need it. And dont forget about LoS! so you could leave the boss out front, and use his cover save, and if it fails, toss one wound on a koptas. No big deals
They are the same way they are affected by painboyz FNP as well. But still, I personally think koptas are a better tag along unit then nob bikers. Bikers are 45pts STOCK, where as a stock kopta is 35. Koptas shoot farther with the same weapon, can slpit off and move much farther AND grant hit and run on the Boss. So you shoot the piss out of a unit, assault it into death, and then when its counter assaulted, if youve a kopta left with the boss, just hit and run out of there. Rinse, repeat.
KingCracker wrote: so you could leave the boss out front, and use his cover save, and if it fails, toss one wound on a koptas. No big deals
Unfortunately Look Out Sir! doesn't work like that. You have to roll it before you roll your save. You could however use LOS! to transfer S10 wounds to the Koptas to avoid Instant Death for your Warboss.
KingCracker wrote: so you could leave the boss out front, and use his cover save, and if it fails, toss one wound on a koptas. No big deals
Unfortunately Look Out Sir! doesn't work like that. You have to roll it before you roll your save. You could however use LOS! to transfer S10 wounds to the Koptas to avoid Instant Death for your Warboss.
BikerBoss is T6 so no ID from Str 10. In fact, you may want to take a chance with that Str. 10 with the boss to NOT ID a Deffkopta or NobBiker.
If they all have the same armor save, you can roll saves first then LoS!
If any model in the unit has a different armor save, you roll LoS! first then roll your saves.
For King's example, since the Koptas turbo-boosted, they also have 4+ cover. You can then roll all your saves at the same time (4+) then LOS off the Warboss (if needed).
If the Koptas had not turbo boosted, and the Koptas had a 5+ cover. You would have had to roll LoS off the Warboss first, then rolled (5+) saves on the Koptas.
If all the units are bikes and they all have 4+ cover, then you can roll saves before then LoS!
Gylen wrote: If they all have the same armor save, you can roll saves first then LoS!
If any model in the unit has a different armor save, you roll LoS! first then roll your saves.
For King's example, since the Koptas turbo-boosted, they also have 4+ cover. You can then roll all your saves at the same time (4+) then LOS off the Warboss (if needed).
If the Koptas had not turbo boosted, and the Koptas had a 5+ cover. You would have had to roll LoS off the Warboss first, then rolled (5+) saves on the Koptas.
If all the units are bikes and they all have 4+ cover, then you can roll saves before then LoS!
I think the first page of the main Rule Book FAQ contradicts this. It mentions to delete the unsaved wounds line and to use the mixed saves if a character is present.
The way we play it is to LoS first and then roll for saves, of any kind.
KingCracker wrote: Koptas shoot farther with the same weapon, can slpit off and move much farther AND grant hit and run on the Boss. So you shoot the piss out of a unit, assault it into death, and then when its counter assaulted, if youve a kopta left with the boss, just hit and run out of there. Rinse, repeat.
Genius. Hit-and-running Bikerbosses? How often does that work out for you? How well do the deffkoptas survive an assault? Ive never used them for anything other than ranged anti-tank.
virx67 wrote:I play it LoS then other saves if it fails.
That is also how I do it.
Ronin wrote:
KingCracker wrote: Koptas shoot farther with the same weapon, can slpit off and move much farther AND grant hit and run on the Boss. So you shoot the piss out of a unit, assault it into death, and then when its counter assaulted, if youve a kopta left with the boss, just hit and run out of there. Rinse, repeat.
Genius. Hit-and-running Bikerbosses? How often does that work out for you? How well do the deffkoptas survive an assault? Ive never used them for anything other than ranged anti-tank.
Pretty decently actually. And you feel like a badass running out, shooting again and then charging back in.
Also koptas are fairly survivable depending on what your fighting. T5 makes even SM attacks mostly useless. So anything str4 or less you can almost safely laugh at
KingCracker wrote: Also koptas are fairly survivable depending on what your fighting. T5 makes even SM attacks mostly useless. So anything str4 or less you can almost safely laugh at
Ah yes, forgot about that. As I said, I barely used mine, and I gave them away to someone who wanted them for bitz. Bummer Makes deffkoptas a pretty good unit for the Bikerboss to hang out with then. Attaching a Bikerboss to some Biker nobz just make the unit even more of a target priority, and warbikers are only so-so. The TL-Big shootas seem pretty good in a full unit as well, supporting its role as anti-infantry, though I would lament the loss of the TL-rokkits. Deffkoptas are probably one of are more reliable anti-tank units (other than a powerklaw to the hull).
My problem with rokkits in Orks, is you just need a crap load of them to really be effective.....like Tankbustas. Now THEY get enough shots to pretty much guarantee hits. When youve only got a few rokkits zipping around, even with TL in the mix, they are still only so so. Now, mass of TL bigshoota fire OTOH, can pop light transports pretty well and will smoke the squishies that wont be in a transport.
Ive decided to run PK and planks on my trukks in my AV10 spam, since that seems to be where Im going currently. Fast and shooty. Sure its far from auto win, but its fast, hits like a bag full of anvils and is above all a lot of fun. So Im thinking, if I continue to use my buggies as screens and such, all those PK will be able to wreck some vehicle face. Havnt tried it yet, but we shall see
Has anyone played with a Tankbuster squad in a Trukk for popping light vehicles or side armor on LRBT's? I was thinking 5-6 tankbusters, 1 tankhammer in a trukk with RPJ and Boarding Plank. Gives your a fast mobile troop transport can opener. Move your 13" then 12" first turn, then turn 2 move 12" and hit some side armor or move 6" and shoot or assault.
I'm leaning towards the fast shooty army with PKs in the 2nd wave to pop vehicles and a biker boss as well. It seems to be suited to 6th rules.
Ronin wrote: Genius. Hit-and-running Bikerbosses? How often does that work out for you? How well do the deffkoptas survive an assault? Ive never used them for anything other than ranged anti-tank.
Warboss has I4 so that's 66% chance of passing the Initiative test. I think the best is to have 4 Deffkoptas for added survivability (8HP + WB is not easy to take down in one close combat round). So far this team has been useful to me whenever I wanted to destroy an operating unit controlling an objective in the enemy's deployment zone.
Wingeds wrote: Has anyone played with a Tankbuster squad in a Trukk for popping light vehicles or side armor on LRBT's? I was thinking 5-6 tankbusters, 1 tankhammer in a trukk with RPJ and Boarding Plank. Gives your a fast mobile troop transport can opener. Move your 13" then 12" first turn, then turn 2 move 12" and hit some side armor or move 6" and shoot or assault.
I'm leaning towards the fast shooty army with PKs in the 2nd wave to pop vehicles and a biker boss as well. It seems to be suited to 6th rules.
You can, and it works ok, but since you can't buy a trukk for them as a dedicated transport you will have an undersized boyz mob footslogging around..
Wingeds wrote: Has anyone played with a Tankbuster squad in a Trukk for popping light vehicles or side armor on LRBT's? I was thinking 5-6 tankbusters, 1 tankhammer in a trukk with RPJ and Boarding Plank. Gives your a fast mobile troop transport can opener. Move your 13" then 12" first turn, then turn 2 move 12" and hit some side armor or move 6" and shoot or assault.
As pointed out above, it can work - though I tend to prefer to put them inside Battlewagons for some added protection. I generally toss in enough Tankbustas to get an average of three to four hits, so about 10-12 of them, plus a Nob. This has proved to work really well for me, but it's expensive, and *really* feels like you're pouring a lot of points into a single unit combo.
Wingeds wrote: Has anyone played with a Tankbuster squad in a Trukk for popping light vehicles or side armor on LRBT's? I was thinking 5-6 tankbusters, 1 tankhammer in a trukk with RPJ and Boarding Plank. Gives your a fast mobile troop transport can opener. Move your 13" then 12" first turn, then turn 2 move 12" and hit some side armor or move 6" and shoot or assault.
I'm leaning towards the fast shooty army with PKs in the 2nd wave to pop vehicles and a biker boss as well. It seems to be suited to 6th rules.
You can, and it works ok, but since you can't buy a trukk for them as a dedicated transport you will have an undersized boyz mob footslogging around..
But that isn't so bad, we pay 40 points for Grot objective campers 11 T 2 majority.
For just a small increase you get a 10 model T4 majority camping squad you can hold in reserves and or throw a BS or Rokkit on just for kicks!
Actually, the Battlewagon is a good idea. Whatever you do, don't footslog them. I've tried, often, and they invariably get whittled down by shooting right away, to the point that they're nearly useless. And you can slap 4 more Rokkets on the Battlewagon, giving you, in essense, 4 more Tankbustas. Plus, of course, the Deffrolla.
Yes the can do that, but 12 boyz on their own, just sitting will blow over like paper in the wind. I guess the plus side to that is who would waste time shooting at 12 boyz?
Dear Ork players, I need your help on a specific point of rule, concerning IC, Artillery and Fortifications.
This would be about an IG ally force: - My IC would be one Lord Commissar, who is BS5, so hits on 2+. - The Artillery would be a Heavy Mortar team, so T7. - The Fortifications are ADL + Quad-gun (Interceptor).
So here's what's troubling me. I'm a little confused. 1/ Deployment: Lord Commissar attached to the Artillery unit, T7 and Ld10 to everyone, yay. Behind ADL, 4+ cover with Quad-gun nearby. 2/ During an opponent's turn: Lord Commissar fires the ADL's Quad-gun on a unit coming from reserve, be it a flyer or deep-strikers, etc. 3/ During my next turn: Can I separate Lord Commissar from the rest of the unit so the Artillery unit can still shoot anywhere, not the unit the Lord Commissar shot during the opponent's turn?
The rulebook is not clear on that matter. P96, "Emplaced Weapons" "Manual Fire" : "If a building is occupied, a model within can choose to fire one of the emplaced weapons instead of his own. Use the model's Ballistic Skill and the line of sight of the weapon. All relevant special rules from the firing model and the weapon are used". Fair enough. But do you have to shoot the unit you intercepted during the last turn of your opponent with all the models during the player's turn? If so, can this be avoided by separating the IC from the unit?
The benefit? Having a T7-Ld10 combo for both units and blocking LoS on Lord Commissar who is able to hit enemy flyers on 2+ (twin-linked). But I want to use my artillery freely. I'm planning to field a Death Korps of Krieg ally force and I'd like to have your point of view for this hypothesis.
If that T7 artillery unit is a big gunz unit from the ork codex, it can't happen sadly. We're not battle brothers, so our IC's are unable to join each other's units (or else I'd have KFF meks in my platoons )
If you're talking a T7 artillery unit in the IG codex, are you using forgeworld? Because the vanilla IG dex doesn't have any unit with the actual "artillery" rule. All of ours are on armored vehicles, so have an AV value still.
MrMoustaffa wrote: If you're talking a T7 artillery unit in the IG codex, are you using forgeworld? Because the vanilla IG dex doesn't have any unit with the actual "artillery" rule. All of ours are on armored vehicles, so have an AV value still.
Yes, what I was thinking about is Forgeworld rules for Death Korps of Krieg. Heavy Mortars are Artillery type, giving the whole unit T7.
My ally force would consist in 1x Lord Commissar (HQ), 1x 3 Heavy Mortars (Elites), 2x 10 Engineers in Hades Drill (Troops).
No mix with Ork units whatsoever, even if I'll be using Kromlech models to make them DKoK look orky.
Here's my first Troop choice, "Da Alfa-Team" (Engineers) with scratchbuilt "Da Mole of Gork" (Drill).
Both of the troops come into play via enhanced deep-striking rules. The HQ+Elite stay behind ADL together.
The rest of the Ork army would then be played as usual.
MrMoustaffa wrote: If that T7 artillery unit is a big gunz unit from the ork codex, it can't happen sadly. We're not battle brothers, so our IC's are unable to join each other's units (or else I'd have KFF meks in my platoons )
If you're talking a T7 artillery unit in the IG codex, are you using forgeworld? Because the vanilla IG dex doesn't have any unit with the actual "artillery" rule. All of ours are on armored vehicles, so have an AV value still.
The KFF will still protect the guard non vehicle units, but for the points putting them up on a skyshield is more effective if they're camping.
Those Kromlech bitz look absolutely amazing man. Those will look great on the table.
As for the lord commissar guy, I don't really know if he's needed, but he'll look awesome and keep them from running away. Any excuse to get that ork kommissar model is fine by me. I've been meaning to get one myself for ages
MrMoustaffa wrote: Those Kromlech bitz look absolutely amazing man. Those will look great on the table.
As for the lord commissar guy, I don't really know if he's needed, but he'll look awesome and keep them from running away. Any excuse to get that ork kommissar model is fine by me. I've been meaning to get one myself for ages
I've got the model, but haven't actually used him as a kommissar yet, just as a sergeant or a Psycher. If you are going to use him though, make use of that BS5 and shoot a weapon like a quad gun.
I'm looking forward to my next project, using the clanking destroyers as necrons warriors or immortals and adding in some looted necrons vehicles. The monolith, although not as dangerous as a doom scythe, may be too good for looting potential to pass up.
Yeah those Kromlech models are awesome indeed. I have ten other "boyz" almost ready to hold their shotgun rifles. Yet again I'll have to convert the Sarge and the Demolition Charge but it's pure win. I'll be using the Kromlech 20-cm Flehaubitse Canon for Heavy Mortars. The most difficult part will be the building of another drill from scratch...
NamelessBard wrote: I've got the model, but haven't actually used him as a kommissar yet, just as a sergeant or a Psycher. If you are going to use him though, make use of that BS5 and shoot a weapon like a quad gun.
I'm looking forward to my next project, using the clanking destroyers as necrons warriors or immortals and adding in some looted necrons vehicles. The monolith, although not as dangerous as a doom scythe, may be too good for looting potential to pass up.
Yes, with twin-linked BS5 I'm almost sure the 4 shots would hit every time. About joining the Heavy Mortar team, I think it'll depend on whether the Orks have the first turn or not. Anyway if somebody thinks he's got the right answer for that matter I'm buying it.
Using clanking destroyers as Necrons is PURE WIN. Didn't think about that, but I'll definitely have a look later on. I like the idea of orky allies. You're able to play your models for as much for ally force as for your regular orks.
The monolith, although not as dangerous as a doom scythe, may be too good for looting potential to pass up.
Make the monolith a looted Stompa!
YES YES YES!
Now THERES an idea....
Also, I played a game with mass AV10 spam at 1100pts last night. 4 shootaboyz trukk mobs, with planks (Though I ended up playing against nids sooooo waste of points lol) 9 bigshoota buggies and some lootas to fill it out, lead by a basic KFF mek. Ive got to tell ya....I think 6th has made AV10 spam much more viable. Those buggies, I just zipped up and turned sideways, whatever those bigshootas killed was awesome, but that was just icing on the cake. Because they blocked SO MUCH LOS and were such a nuisance. They allowed me to really set up my kill zones for the trukk mobs.
The planks will allow for some extra anti transport along with the lootas, the buggies are just a tool to set up the enemy more or less. Not to mention attacking one unit with 2 trukk mobz, allows you lot that plays with challenges to still throw down PK attacks into said unit, since youll have a free Nob to do it with in most situations. Im running with this for a while to see how it hashes out.
KingCracker wrote: Also, I played a game with mass AV10 spam at 1100pts last night. 4 shootaboyz trukk mobs, with planks (Though I ended up playing against nids sooooo waste of points lol) 9 bigshoota buggies and some lootas to fill it out, lead by a basic KFF mek. Ive got to tell ya....I think 6th has made AV10 spam much more viable. Those buggies, I just zipped up and turned sideways, whatever those bigshootas killed was awesome, but that was just icing on the cake. Because they blocked SO MUCH LOS and were such a nuisance. They allowed me to really set up my kill zones for the trukk mobs.
The planks will allow for some extra anti transport along with the lootas, the buggies are just a tool to set up the enemy more or less. Not to mention attacking one unit with 2 trukk mobz, allows you lot that plays with challenges to still throw down PK attacks into said unit, since youll have a free Nob to do it with in most situations. Im running with this for a while to see how it hashes out.
Be interested to know how this list/playstyle would do at higher point levels. Might give me incentive to run more Trukks, and really get in their faces!
Im not sure, in our group I plan on playing a higher point version of this list and so Ill see how it operates there. As for really shooty, couldnt tell ya off hand. Im hoping the buggies would still block LOS from the majority of other units, meaning a unit would have to either move around them to shoot at the main army, or waste their shots on the buggies themselves.
As far as second turn goes, I dunno, that would certainly suck against a really shooty army. Still though, if I were taking this and went second, Id probably use the buggies again, to block LOS to the rest of my army, at least as much as possible.
Oh, for some reason it didnt register that you brought 4 trukks AND 9 buggies. For some reason I thought you only had 4 vehicles.... I think that much gak on the board around 1k is quite alot for alot of armies to handle, tho I think IG would give your problems. How did you like BS biggies compared to rokkit (granted vs nids BS would be better than rokkits generally)?
Well against Nids, they were still pretty decent, decent range and str5 can do damage everywhere. I THINK (take with salt as I havnt tried it yet) that my idea against mech or SM that Ill still take the Bigshoota variety instead. Mainly because Im going to use the planks +PK + Lootas should take care of the rest. And mass Bigshootas have proven their abilities already in my eyes when I run my Bikerboss with x5 BS koptas as a group. So really, they can still pop transports alright, and wound most units with little effort.
So I think they will do just fine, and once more, I wont stress this enough, the buggies are going to play distraction/blockers first, and then hurting things second. Their main job is to keep the fire away from the rest of my army. But yea @1k points their was soooo much gak on the table for my side, it was great!
whembly wrote: Okay... just saw this in the YMTC, so here goes.
Ork having KFF mek + that big bastion thingy + an AV14 immobile building with 5+ cover save?
Isn't that some sort of there?
Maybe, but buildings are still horribly dangerous to any infantry without a good save. It would be far better to put them in a battle wagon which has the bonus of being manoeuvrable.
KingCracker wrote: Well against Nids, they were still pretty decent, decent range and str5 can do damage everywhere. I THINK (take with salt as I havnt tried it yet) that my idea against mech or SM that Ill still take the Bigshoota variety instead. Mainly because Im going to use the planks +PK + Lootas should take care of the rest. And mass Bigshootas have proven their abilities already in my eyes when I run my Bikerboss with x5 BS koptas as a group. So really, they can still pop transports alright, and wound most units with little effort.
So I think they will do just fine, and once more, I wont stress this enough, the buggies are going to play distraction/blockers first, and then hurting things second. Their main job is to keep the fire away from the rest of my army. But yea @1k points their was soooo much gak on the table for my side, it was great!
So how do you run them? I understand that you use them to block and stuff, but is that just LOS blockers or what? Would be nice to be able to provide some cover so my trukk boyz get up there fast.
Well buggies are decent size (mine are based around a landspeeder size) So they can grant some cover yes. But youd be surprised how much LOS they can block, specially if your right up in your opponents face. So if they are forced to move, any heavy weapons in the squad become much less of a problem. And some simple maneuvering can go a long way in getting those trukks up where you need them
It's also a lot on area denial. Either they have to destroy them, wasting the whole turn on a 90+ point unit, and because movement comes before shooting and assault, well, they essentially do nothing for the whole turn. Stuff has to move all the way around them, and max spacing them all means that you can't get by in just one turn. It denies space for enemy units to go to, so you funnel them all into kill boxes to be munched by your trukks of boyz and MANz and bikers.
KingCracker wrote: Well buggies are decent size (mine are based around a landspeeder size) So they can grant some cover yes. But youd be surprised how much LOS they can block, specially if your right up in your opponents face. So if they are forced to move, any heavy weapons in the squad become much less of a problem. And some simple maneuvering can go a long way in getting those trukks up where you need them
I run a very similar list as you posted KC (less buggies more trukks). Maybe its my area but I can't seem to be able to get away from tl rokkits on buggies. I just don't have enough anti armor otherwise. Ive just dropped the pk on nobs though and use big gunz and a unit of tankbustas. I'd be interested in how the pk and boarding ramps work out though. There's just something awesome about a nob w/ a pk hanging out of a trukk on a boarding plank.
Since you use the buggies as cheap los blockers, have you consider the trakk w/ scorcha? The models are a lot longer then reg buggies cause they have the tank connected to the trakk as a trailer. I know its more points (roughly +15?) but it would block a lot more.
KingCracker wrote: Well buggies are decent size (mine are based around a landspeeder size) So they can grant some cover yes. But youd be surprised how much LOS they can block, specially if your right up in your opponents face. So if they are forced to move, any heavy weapons in the squad become much less of a problem. And some simple maneuvering can go a long way in getting those trukks up where you need them
This was my idea to, the buggy wall instead of a can wall. But I run a horde instead of trukks behind it & fit em out with different weapons, actually managed to land the scorcha template on a SM line.
I ran a bit of both last time, and... I favor the buggies over the cans now. Their cheaper, they move faster. The cans can survive immobelized now, but when you run a horde it's like having a demolition charge you have to walk around, bc if opponent is smart h'll try to explode it on u'r boyz (while the fast buggies are normally ahead of the boyz). The cans never make contact in my experience, which is bad bc you pay for the powerweapon & that's what makes them scary.
In 5th I actually DID run a buggy wall instead of kans. As usual, most people dismissed it because it wasnt a net list, but I found that to be FAR more effective and universal then Kans. Kans are OK, IMO, they always were just OK, but a buggy can move as slow as a kan AND move twice as fast. Now that the KFF got nerfed on vehicles, Kans are skoffed at. Thats actually why I have 9 buggies sitting around, because I used them that way. The only dilemma I run into now, is Fast Attack is full of very useful units, so it becomes a give and take.
As for the TL rokkits, again, I havnt tested it out too much to have an opinion either way. So far though, the TL rokkits, even being TL, are not very reliable as far as hitting goes, so you can waste entire shooting phases hitting air. Where as with 9 TL str5 shots, your GOING to hit something, and you will cause damage. Not to mention, Im basically throwing away these buggies at the cost of setting my army up where I want it to be. So in that perfect scenario, saving the points and not taking TL rokkits can add up. Sure its only 5pts per buggy, but when you take 9 of them, thats a chunk of points for something thats going to have a missile or a grenade/bomb rammed down its throat
MrMoustaffa wrote: I thought the smoke save specifically said a 4+ save? If that's the case, it would remain a +4 save even with the change to 6th, as it's a specific rule for the bikes. Codex usually trumps rulebook when it comes to specific rules, and if the codex specifically says, "bikes always get a +4 cover save from the smoke cloud", then they'll be completely unchanged.
I'm more worried about the status of bikes in general in 6th. Curious if they'll get a minor tweak or a major rule change...
Well then why am i not allowed to use my " Lumberin Behometh " special Rule on my Leman russ's ? Its annoying but the Rule book does trump codex in some areas
Because your faq specifically says it's gone byebye?
Page 48 – Leman Russ Battle Tank, Lumbering Behemoth.
Replace this entry with the following: “A Leman Russ follows
the rules for Heavy Vehicles on page 83 of the Warhammer
40,000 rulebook.”
while the Ork FAQ
Change the first sentence to read “Any model mounted on a
Warbike changes their unit type to Bike, gains a 4+ armour save
and has the Exhaust Cloud special rule”
Supports the codex rule.
The ways of GW are at times unfathomable, plus orks iz best.
I'm actually thinking of building the Bikerz I got (single pack) into a Stormhawks-esque squad that can convert from Aerial Assault Vehikles (Deffkoptas, effectively) into Bikez with a Flying stand and a flick of the wings. What'z folks think?
Since we're talking about Buggies and Fast attack :
I've been thinking of running 4 Koptas (for Leadership purpose) with TL-Big Shootas and a Buzzsaw as an outflanking unit.
They're now immune to ID unless it's S10 and get a 5+ cover save, which drastically increases their survival rate against most things that used to destroy them badly in 5th (Missile launchers, Lascannons, Meltas, etc...).
For only 5 more points than a Buggy, I find that *very* interesting. So what do you guys think ?
So I've slowly been reading this tactica and wondering if a modified Kan Wall would still work using CSM and Orks as allies ...
-CSMORK WALL-
HQ: 1 Sorcerer, LvL 2; Force Sword; Power Maul; Gift of Mutation 110 (warlord/biomancy)
HQ: 1 Big Mek, Kustom Force Field; Burna; Cybork; Eavy Armour; Bosspole 125
Elite: 2x 3 Mutilator, Mark of Nurgle 366
Troop: 20 Chaos Cultists, 2 Flamers 100
Troop: 3x 10 Chaos Cultists, Heavy Stubber 165
Troop: 30 Boyz, 3 Rokkits 210
Troop: Deffdread, Armour Plates; Skorcha; DCCW 105
Heavy Support: 3x 3 Obliterator, Mark of Nurgle 684
Heavy Support: 3 Killa Kans, Grotzooka; DCCW 135
-2000-
I get six troop slots filled and i have nineteen walkers ... I also have eighty bodies on the table. Good or bad idea?
Umm ... deffdread, nine oblits, 6 mutilators - not walkers really walkers but filling a similar role. That is a lot of T^ wounds to deal with not hull points but essentially they perform a similar tasks.
felixcat wrote: Umm ... deffdread, nine oblits, 6 mutilators - not walkers really walkers but filling a similar role. That is a lot of T^ wounds to deal with not hull points but essentially they perform a similar tasks.
AV and armor saves aren't really the same thing, though. Armor value requires high strength and armor saves require volume of fire or an AP value.
If I were confronting a bunch of Oblits and a few walkers, I could just divide up my low strength high volume shots to the Oblits and my high strength anti vehicle fire to the walkers.
The point of spamming walkers is to overwhelm an opponent, who may not have enough high strength shooting in his list to deal with all of the walkers.
Also, the reason Ork lists used to spam a lot of walkers is because they used to receive a 4+ cover save from the Kustom Force Field, which was a huge force multiplier because it was rolled in addition to the armor penetration roll, whereas against infantry it only replaces whatever armor save would have been rolled in its place. Now that value has been nerfed to a 5+ cover save since 6th edition, which diminishes somewhat the usefulness of the tactic. A 5+ cover save is also completely redundant to a model in Terminator armor (Mutilators, Obliterators), because Terminators get a 5+ invulnerable save for anything that bypasses their 2+ armor save.
KingCracker wrote: In 5th I actually DID run a buggy wall instead of kans. As usual, most people dismissed it because it wasnt a net list, but I found that to be FAR more effective and universal then Kans. Kans are OK, IMO, they always were just OK, but a buggy can move as slow as a kan AND move twice as fast. Now that the KFF got nerfed on vehicles, Kans are skoffed at. Thats actually why I have 9 buggies sitting around, because I used them that way. The only dilemma I run into now, is Fast Attack is full of very useful units, so it becomes a give and take.
As for the TL rokkits, again, I havnt tested it out too much to have an opinion either way. So far though, the TL rokkits, even being TL, are not very reliable as far as hitting goes, so you can waste entire shooting phases hitting air. Where as with 9 TL str5 shots, your GOING to hit something, and you will cause damage. Not to mention, Im basically throwing away these buggies at the cost of setting my army up where I want it to be. So in that perfect scenario, saving the points and not taking TL rokkits can add up. Sure its only 5pts per buggy, but when you take 9 of them, thats a chunk of points for something thats going to have a missile or a grenade/bomb rammed down its throat
That sounds pretty awesome actually. I would think that rokkit buggies would be pretty decent at hitting flyers, but overall id probably take BS buggies like you said. Now I just gotta find a way/time to convert some. Along with dakka jets. and storm boyz. and mega nobz. and big gunz. lol
So, had my first game yesterday in which the Shock Attack Gun actually worked for me. Even though I only got to fire it twice (going to ground is a tough decision in this case).
Pity my ADL Quad Gun was blasted away in the opponent's first turn, so my grots kinda just sat around before getting blasted away by ordnance.
Also had a bit of an epiphany realising Mob Rule is a voluntary act, so I could actually choose to trigger it *after* the unit suffers Weaken Resolve to just jump back up to normal leadership when any test came. Opponent was suitably vexed by that.
Odd that that situation, that lead me to realise this, only came up now after four years of playing, though >_>
Unfortunate that there's still so much arguing in our group about blasts damaging / wounding units out of LoS.
Quicky - does the Shock Attack Gun, when it gets a double 6, *remove* vehicles, as they are units in themselves, in addition to dealing that automatic pen? Or do we just assume vehicles are not intended to be removed, and just suffer that auto-pen?
I'm pretty sure "model" usually means anything that isn't a vehicle. Plus it wouldn't make sense to specifically have a vehicle take a hit and then auto remove from play. Also, if you were intended to remove vehicles, then there would be a note detailing what to do if a transport with dudes in it gets hit by it.
incorrect, a model is a model. A transport is a model, a tank is a model a bike is a model. They put it that way, so you cant hit 1 boy and make the entire unit disappear. It only affects the models that are under the template. The wording makes sense when you look at it this way, a vehicle takes an auto pen. So roll on the damage table, if you roll a 6, it will explode, and then disappear as per the rules in the codex.
Oddly enough, yesterday I played with my SAG and roll box cars as well. It scattered and only landed on 1 CSM bike. So I FINALLY get that badass outcome, and it makes 1 bike go bye bye
Automatically Appended Next Post: ALSO while looking at the FAQ for some rules question I have now forgotten, I stumbled on this and thought Id share from the earlier debate as to combi skorchas on MANz for WOD.
– Ghazghkull Thraka, Prophet of the Waaagh!
Change the third paragraph to read “Furthermore, for the
duration of the Waaagh!, all friendly Ork Infantry units
automatically count as rolling a 6 if they Run, and models with
the Slow and Purposeful special rule exchange it for Relentless
instead. All non-fleeing friendly Ork units become Fearless for
the duration of the Waaagh!”.
So yes, I was correct (sorta) stick those burnas on the MANz, and while on GHAZ WAAAGH! you can then WoD. Still not a real good reason to use Ghaz unless your running a MANz wing or something
If I were confronting a bunch of Oblits and a few walkers, I could just divide up my low strength high volume shots to the Oblits and my high strength anti vehicle fire to the walkers.
Good luck with that plan. Those oblits and muties are T6 - you are not going to take them out with low strength shots. They will overwhelm you. There are lists that can hurt you - not many - venom spam maybe. Otr a mirror match with
Also, the reason Ork lists used to spam a lot of walkers is because they used to receive a 4+ cover save from the Kustom Force Field
Which is why you now need something else other than just Kans and Deffdreds - hence Oblits and Muties with T5/2+ and thirty wounds lumbering at you. Night Scythes would be a problem. They would be a problem for a Kan wall too.
You have enough dakka with rokkits, grotzookas and oblit weapons to pull it off - your Orks and Cultists will just tie up your opponent until the big guys arrive.
If I were confronting a bunch of Oblits and a few walkers, I could just divide up my low strength high volume shots to the Oblits and my high strength anti vehicle fire to the walkers.
Good luck with that plan. Those oblits and muties are T6 - you are not going to take them out with low strength shots. They will overwhelm you. There are lists that can hurt you - not many - venom spam maybe. Otr a mirror match with
Oblits and muties are T4 base. Mark of Nurgle only adds 1 Toughness. Hence Oblits and muties are only T5 with MoN.
Also, they aren't going to "overwhelm" me at that points cost.
Also, the reason Ork lists used to spam a lot of walkers is because they used to receive a 4+ cover save from the Kustom Force Field
Which is why you now need something else other than just Kans and Deffdreds - hence Oblits and Muties with T5/2+ and thirty wounds lumbering at you. Night Scythes would be a problem. They would be a problem for a Kan wall too.
You have enough dakka with rokkits, grotzookas and oblit weapons to pull it off - your Orks and Cultists will just tie up your opponent until the big guys arrive.
Obliterators and Mutilators receive no benefit from the Kan Wall. In fact, nobody benefits from Kan Wall any more on account that Kans only get a 5+ cover save now from Kustom Force Field, the same cover save that the rest of your models get from it, without even using Kans.
The only thing you're saying about Obliterators and Mutilators that justify their usage in this list is that they are difficult to kill. Yes, they are difficult to kill, but they also cost an arm and a leg and are a rather inefficient means of creating a meat shield.
There are tons of things in the Chaos dex that you can use with armor values that would benefit from the KFFs cover save - Hellbrutes, Defilers, Maulerfiends...cultists also benefit from the KFF save, and hence they would be good to fill up the FOC cost required to bring the Chaos models, but they're actually less efficient per points cost than Ork Boyz.
Another problem you need to look into is - are you going to be able to fit all of these models inside of a 12" diameter KFF bubble? That's a lot of models to fit in such a small space. You might need two Meks with KFF.
Oblits and muties are T4 base. Mark of Nurgle only adds 1 Toughness. Hence Oblits and muties are only T5 with MoN
Yes they are T5. With a 2+. And a lot of wounds. So I think they can withstand some fire. I actually corrected myself later. I'm aware of their weaknesses and their strengths. You haven't really written anything that would negate their use in a wall list. Their are going to be thirty boys and fifty cultists coming at you first backed up by the sorcerer and the big mek. I don't think they are over priced for what they bring.
There are tons of things in the Chaos dex that you can use with armor values that would benefit from the KFFs cover save - Hellbrutes, Defilers, Maulerfiends...cultists also benefit from the KFF save, and hence they would be good to fill up the FOC cost required to bring the Chaos models, but they're actually less efficient per points cost than Ork Boyz.
Indeed boys are better. I considered two mobs and dropping the deffdread but I like the idea of multiple hard to kill models. I'm using all my chaos FoC slots on cultists. I think oblits are needed. They bring options that maulerfields and hellbrutes lack. And if I'm using oblits I want mutilators to complement them. If antything I could drop the KFF and use a cheaper Mek but for the cost he will do. The list is not relying on the KFF - that is the point.
That said it is just a concept. I suppose you could use your hellbrutes and maulerfiends if you prefered but I think the list will be more effective as it stands.
KingCracker wrote: incorrect, a model is a model. A transport is a model, a tank is a model a bike is a model. They put it that way, so you cant hit 1 boy and make the entire unit disappear. It only affects the models that are under the template. The wording makes sense when you look at it this way, a vehicle takes an auto pen. So roll on the damage table, if you roll a 6, it will explode, and then disappear as per the rules in the codex.
Okay, so, a bit confused on what you are suggesting here.
Double six template hits a vehicle. Let's say I roll a.... 4 for a damage roll, bringing it up to a 5 (due to the SAG being ap2). The vehicle has taken the penetrating hit, survived, and...?
OR, are you saying that the vehicle will be removed regardless, BUT we want to see if it ALSO explodes, potentially damaging nearby units?
KingCracker wrote: Its removed regardless of the result, but if you roll a 6 on the VDC the vehicle still explodes, AND THEN it gets sucked into the void.
In 4th edition when the Codex was written, page 6 of the rulebook differentiated Non-vehicle models and Vehicle models. That's why the Shock Attack Gun specifies that vehicles take a penetrating hit.
There are *not* removed from play and it's been pretty clear for the entire community for 5 years, so please, don't start confusing people after all this time.
Edit : the Kustom Force Field has a similar wording, and it's been clarified by GW that they meant for it to affect infantry and vehicles differently (hence the 5th edition FAQ that gave a 4+ cover to vehicles while infantry only got a 5+)
Your trying to use a different edition for arguing your point? Thats like explaining how to fix windows8 using windows 98 manuals. Read the rulebook under models and units.Under the "Forming a Unit" and Units" sections it says this, and I quote
Forming a Unit The MODELS that make up your Warhammer 40,000 army must be organised into "units"
followed by
Units *skip a bit to part in question*
A unit usually consists of several MODELS that have banded together, but a single, powerful model, such as a lone character, A TANK, a war engine or rampaging monster, is considered a to be a unit in its own right"
So again Nym, a model is a model is a model. This is 6th edition, not 4th or 5th, not 1st edition. The rules clearly state what is a model, as in everything is a model. And since the SAG clearly says removes a model from play, that means, you guessed it, it removes a model from play
See now THAT is a valid question. Short answer. I dont know? Ive checked the FAQ many times and it doesnt even remotely bring this point up.
If you roll a 6 or get the explodes results, then obviously you take that result on the unit inside. So maybe the unit inside is ignored as far as the RRAGH!! result goes? So youd apply the VDC result to the unit. Since it specifically says "model" and the model in question would be the Rhino or Trukk or whatever, not the unit. So I think I just convinced myself that it effects the transport specifically and the unit only suffers the damage table result
Rules don't always keep up well with edition changes, and GW is notoriously lax in updating old rules with errata.
Some of the oldest codexes still have Target Priority rules, for example.
Fleet is another one that gets twisted around, since they seem to change that one every edition. It did Eldar Guardians precious little good to be able to charge after running, for example, but it used to mean that you COULD run, when most couldn't.
Unfortunately, we have to use the old rules in keeping with the new ruleset, even if their original meaning and RAI don't keep up.
KingCracker wrote: So again Nym, a model is a model is a model. This is 6th edition, not 4th or 5th, not 1st edition. The rules clearly state what is a model, as in everything is a model. And since the SAG clearly says removes a model from play, that means, you guessed it, it removes a model from play
Play it however you want, I really don't care after all. I lost many hours in 5th arguing with people on the KFF or Deffrola issues, yet that didn't make GW publish the FAQ any faster. I just forgot how silly it was to argue on the internet, so please forgive me.
I'd be glad to know what you guys think of Deffkoptas in 6th though, since nobody answered the first time. It seems to me that they greatly improved and are actually better than Buggies now (especially now that hull points are in), even though they lost the ability to assault from reserve. Anyone's been successful with them ?
25.) If da boss is in a challenge with a single enemy, every five boyz that are watching allow a reroll of either to hit, to wound or saves. Charging an MC with 30 boyz? 5 rerolls to hit or wound!
Where did you find this? i'll be needing to find it for a uppcomming tournament
KingCracker wrote: So again Nym, a model is a model is a model. This is 6th edition, not 4th or 5th, not 1st edition. The rules clearly state what is a model, as in everything is a model. And since the SAG clearly says removes a model from play, that means, you guessed it, it removes a model from play
Play it however you want, I really don't care after all. I lost many hours in 5th arguing with people on the KFF or Deffrola issues, yet that didn't make GW publish the FAQ any faster. I just forgot how silly it was to argue on the internet, so please forgive me.
I'd be glad to know what you guys think of Deffkoptas in 6th though, since nobody answered the first time. It seems to me that they greatly improved and are actually better than Buggies now (especially now that hull points are in), even though they lost the ability to assault from reserve. Anyone's been successful with them ?
Im not playing however I want, Im playing ti by the rules. There are certainly rules that are muddy at best, but this part of the SAG rules isnt.
As far as deffkoptas go, Id say they are better, simply because I actually use them now in 6th. Are they better then buggies? Maybe. I use buggies still and so far, to good effect, but I definitely had to change how they were used a bit. They were easily better in 5th edition, but rules changes to certain things changed how they are played in 6th in a big way. Ive been running koptas stock though, and with a buzzsaw on one of them usually, and zip around with a bikerboss.
I suppose the SAG rules will be something my opponent's will likely argue about it a lot though.
RaW, both happen. The codex does not use "instead". As such, as insane as it sounds, I am leaning towards the vehicle popping out of existence. Which means... I'm somewhat motivated to use it some more
Still having trouble writing lists in 6th, trying to find a new solid ground. Considering that vehicles can now move much faster (Trukks can move up to 24", Battlewagons up to 18"), my Kanz are getting left behind. So, as much as I love the Grotzookas, they may start dropping from the lists. I'll try out the Deffkoptas though, I've got about 9 of them lying around in various states of disrepair (damned propellers keep breaking off).
25.) If da boss is in a challenge with a single enemy, every five boyz that are watching allow a reroll of either to hit, to wound or saves. Charging an MC with 30 boyz? 5 rerolls to hit or wound!
anyone who can confirm this? and if they do, please link the releated site. (faq) or page.
6th really did take some getting used to. In 5th I ran mostly a horde, and thanks to shooting in 6th, I feel like I just dont have enough boyz to weather the storm. Which is why I started switching to AV10 spam. As mentioned, vehicles simply fething haul ass now, and my AV10 spam, I cover 24 inches in 1 turn....1 TURN! Im IN my opponents face turn 1 unless its short table edges. Even though assault took a hit, Im still finding myself jumping into the assault, Orks are still decent at clubbing things to death, and as long as your smart as far as what units your charging, Overwatch isnt scary at all.
phatonic wrote: 25.) If da boss is in a challenge with a single enemy, every five boyz that are watching allow a reroll of either to hit, to wound or saves. Charging an MC with 30 boyz? 5 rerolls to hit or wound!
anyone who can confirm this? and if they do, please link the releated site. (faq) or page.
Its 1 re-roll for every 5 people in the "same combat" watching
phatonic wrote: 25.) If da boss is in a challenge with a single enemy, every five boyz that are watching allow a reroll of either to hit, to wound or saves. Charging an MC with 30 boyz? 5 rerolls to hit or wound!
anyone who can confirm this? and if they do, please link the releated site. (faq) or page.
phatonic wrote: 25.) If da boss is in a challenge with a single enemy, every five boyz that are watching allow a reroll of either to hit, to wound or saves. Charging an MC with 30 boyz? 5 rerolls to hit or wound!
anyone who can confirm this? and if they do, please link the releated site. (faq) or page.
Its 1 re-roll for every 5 people in the "same combat" watching
To be more specific, if in an assault, the only remaining enemy is an enemy character in a challenge with your character - the boyz obviously have no one to hit. As such, they instead provide inspiration to your character in the challenge. For every 5 models, the character may re-roll a single dice involved in that challenge.
If there are other enemies in the combat not involved in the challenge, the boyz don't provide support, and just try to pile in and kill the other guys in the combat.
So I'm back to playing my Orks after being a bit dissapointed with them in 6th and I've decided to build up an army that I've wanted to do since I first started, the Warbiker list.
The army is pretty straight foward, Biker Boss & Wazdakka escorted around with Nob Bikers. A whole bunch of Warbikers to fill out the troops and then some Deff Kopta squads for some ranged Anti-Tank support.
I've already started building and painting the army but the thing that's really getting me is how I should field the Warbikers. What's the optimum size for them? Am I better off with large squads or should I go for more smaller squads trying to shove in as many PKs as I can?
So I think we might have talked about this before, but what do you guys think about converting some WFB Black Orcs to be Meganobz? I think it could work well, but im not sure how to make them more "40k" like.
MrMoustaffa wrote: I thought the smoke save specifically said a 4+ save? If that's the case, it would remain a +4 save even with the change to 6th, as it's a specific rule for the bikes. Codex usually trumps rulebook when it comes to specific rules, and if the codex specifically says, "bikes always get a +4 cover save from the smoke cloud", then they'll be completely unchanged.
I'm more worried about the status of bikes in general in 6th. Curious if they'll get a minor tweak or a major rule change...
Well then why am i not allowed to use my " Lumberin Behometh " special Rule on my Leman russ's ? Its annoying but the Rule book does trump codex in some areas
Except, you know, Lumbering Behemoth was specifically FAQ'd to be replaced with "heavy vehicle" now (CURSE YOU GW) whereas "Exhaust Cloud" (the +4 cover save for warbikes rule) is still in the orks codex, and has not been eratta'd in any way. If the rule book always trumped codex, 90% of the special characters and units would be almost useless as none of their abilities would do anything. Your logic is really confusing.
Bikes in general get the +5 cover save. Ork bikes get a +4 because their codex specifically gives them that ability. And they're still quite pricy for what they do. There really isn't anything more to it. Ork bikes have a +4 cover save, even if they sit still. Other bikes don't have that because they have the unfortunate fact that they will never be as awesome as ork bikes are.
Ronin wrote: If it's gonna be an all-biker list, I feel 6-8 is a decent size. If you were only running the one or two, would probably bump it up to 9+.
For me all depends on the point limit for your build. I'd say 6-7 is the best way to go, 10 biker nobz would cost an arm, a leg and too much teeth for your regular army.
Billagio wrote: So I think we might have talked about this before, but what do you guys think about converting some WFB Black Orcs to be Meganobz? I think it could work well, but im not sure how to make them more "40k" like.
As far as I'm concerned, I bought a box of Black Orcs along with a box of 40k Nobz. That's 20 badass Nobz you can customize the way you like.
Mix bitz and enjoy!
MrMoustaffa wrote: Other bikes don't have that because they have the unfortunate fact that they will never be as awesome as ork bikes are.
Agreed. I throw my boyz at fething everything a SpaceMarine army has to offer, with LC termies as the exception . Even Lysander and company has felt the wrath of a gak load of boyz. Ive wiped a drop pod unit of Sternguard with a lowly trukk mob a few times as well. Boyz should generally be your answer to most problems, sure there are things they really shouldnt tangle with, but that list is MUCH shorter then the list of things they should be thrown at
I know the "Big Squiggoth" topic has already been brought here pointwise - 50 points is good for a transport with a Tougness value, though much slower than a Trukk. However, a couple of questions do remain.
1/ Would the "Relentless" MC special rule apply to units embarked in a Big Squiggoth, e.g. Lootas? 2/ Would an embarked Painboy's "Feel No Pain" special rule apply to the Big Squiggoth model?
I'd go with yes for both of them but any confirmation would be appreciated.
These creatures are Heavy Support, so playing 2-3 of them won't allow you to field BWs other than dedicated transport vehicles - not under 2K points anyway. They are extra cheap though, and I assume they can be deadly in smaller games, ie @500 or 750 points. For bigger games, I'd like to try a couple of them carrying 10 Lootas each, instead of using an ADL with quadri.
edit: Sorry this is Forgeworld again but I expect this unit to be valid in the rumoured Ork Codex!
Bonzofever wrote: I know the "Big Squiggoth" topic has already been brought here pointwise - 50 points is good for a transport with a Tougness value, though much slower than a Trukk. However, a couple of questions do remain.
1/ Would the "Relentless" MC special rule apply to units embarked in a Big Squiggoth, e.g. Lootas?
Nope, regular transports are relentless, too, so not much difference here. To passengers, being embarked on a squiggoth is only different from being embarked on any other transport in one situation: You are not disallowed from shooting if your transport made a ran during it's shooting phase.
2/ Would an embarked Painboy's "Feel No Pain" special rule apply to the Big Squiggoth model?
A squiggoth can never be in the same unit as a painboy (or pain boss, grotznik, etc), so no. Embarking doesn't impact this at all. You could cybork them though.
I'd go with yes for both of them but any confirmation would be appreciated.
These creatures are Heavy Support, so playing 2-3 of them won't allow you to field BWs other than dedicated transport vehicles - not under 2K points anyway. They are extra cheap though, and I assume they can be deadly in smaller games, ie @500 or 750 points. For bigger games, I'd like to try a couple of them carrying 10 Lootas each, instead of using an ADL with quadri.
edit: Sorry this is Forgeworld again but I expect this unit to be valid in the rumoured Ork Codex!
Food for thought: Burnaz can still stack templates from the squiggoths back, including overwatch. Keep in mind that a squiggoth locked in combat cannot be shot by your enemy, so you can scorch some unit and then charge your squiggoth into combat.
Thanks Jidmah for your answer, much appreciated - even if the big idea about lootas has just collapsed.
Jidmah wrote: Food for thought: Burnaz can still stack templates from the squiggoths back, including overwatch. Keep in mind that a squiggoth locked in combat cannot be shot by your enemy, so you can scorch some unit and then charge your squiggoth into combat.
What do you mean? Boyz embarked in a Squiggoth can scorch the hell out of unit locked in combat with the Big Squiggoth? Also, aren't the Burnaz able to stack templates wherever they please, just like an open-topped vehicle? A couple of squiggoths transporting 10x burnaz is a good idea indeed. But if the Squiggoth runs, they can't fire their weapons because of snap shot, right?
Bonzofever wrote: Thanks Jidmah for your answer, much appreciated - even if the big idea about lootas has just collapsed.
Jidmah wrote: Food for thought: Burnaz can still stack templates from the squiggoths back, including overwatch. Keep in mind that a squiggoth locked in combat cannot be shot by your enemy, so you can scorch some unit and then charge your squiggoth into combat.
What do you mean? Boyz embarked in a Squiggoth can scorch the hell out of unit locked in combat with the Big Squiggoth?
No, he's saying that while a battlewagon full of burnas would normally cremate something, and then have their wagon and them shot to oblivion your next turn, the burnas on the squiggoth could turn a unit into a crackling conflaguration and then the squiggoth could charge a unit, preventing it and your burnas from being shot.
Bonzofever wrote: Also, aren't the Burnaz able to stack templates wherever they please, just like an open-topped vehicle?
Yes, Jidmah was just pointing out that they can still do so on the squiggoth.
Bonzofever wrote: A couple of squiggoths transporting 10x burnaz is a good idea indeed. But if the Squiggoth runs, they can't fire their weapons because of snap shot, right?
I'm not sure about this one. But i think they could still fire. Burnas are assault weapons for a reason.
Let me start by saying I actually took the time to read this entire thread over the course of a few weeks and I must say OP, well done.
I played a KoS list today against my friend's marines and it did surprisingly well.
I had
Warboss EA,BP,CB,PK,AS Kommandos x8 nob w/PK and a burna in the squad
5 Nobz w/ EA,BC and a painboy in a truck w/ RR 3 squads of trukk boys w/ nob w/PK 9 Warbuggies w/TL rockets
I went second, but got a first turn charge w/ my kommandos. I found that the spped and the wall of cover really helped my boys get into krumpin. The Nobz did extraordinarily as well. They are not bikers, but they still hit really hard, and who doesn't love 6 S10 AP2 attacks from a warboss coming out of a truck.
I field kommandos quite often and I find that they really help as an area denial/interceptor unit for vehicles primarily. Mostly everytime I use them they at least blow up a predator or vindicator, and I'm not charging on turn 1 if I go first, but since you can place them ahead of your boys, the threat range of your assaults on enemy vehicles increases so they must either deal with them or not move into the threat range, that's a 115 point squad. They always work great for me. I also like throwing a stikkbomb with the burna so he can get his PW hits in. It's a neat change.
Bonzofever wrote: Thanks Jidmah for your answer, much appreciated - even if the big idea about lootas has just collapsed.
Jidmah wrote: Food for thought: Burnaz can still stack templates from the squiggoths back, including overwatch. Keep in mind that a squiggoth locked in combat cannot be shot by your enemy, so you can scorch some unit and then charge your squiggoth into combat.
What do you mean? Boyz embarked in a Squiggoth can scorch the hell out of unit locked in combat with the Big Squiggoth?
Also, aren't the Burnaz able to stack templates wherever they please, just like an open-topped vehicle?
A couple of squiggoths transporting 10x burnaz is a good idea indeed. But if the Squiggoth runs, they can't fire their weapons because of snap shot, right?
Sorry that's a lot of questions.
See loota boyz post, he pretty much answered all of them
About running squiggoths: There is no rule which says that running transports have any impact on their passengers, so they don't.
PotionsN'Balms wrote: Let me start by saying I actually took the time to read this entire thread over the course of a few weeks and I must say OP, well done.
Thanks!
Also, one question for you, how did your Kommandos get a first round charge when Infiltrators cannot charge on the round they infiltrate?
PotionsN'Balms wrote: Let me start by saying I actually took the time to read this entire thread over the course of a few weeks and I must say OP, well done.
Thanks!
Also, one question for you, how did your Kommandos get a first round charge when Infiltrators cannot charge on the round they infiltrate?
or am I wrong on that?
Slightly wrong.
They cannot charge on the first turn. When turn is stated in the rule book, it always mean player turn. It is even clarified to say this in the FAQ.
It does make sense. The other player has a chance to shoot them, move out of the way, etc. before you get to do anything.
Here is how it has been working for me.
Let's say I win the roll of to see who goes first, I then choose to go second.
We deploy armies as normal, then after everyone is done deploying you do the infiltrators. Let's just say there is no LOS blocking terrain in the middle of the field. The maximum I can put them is 18" away from the enemy. With 24" being the no man's land at the start of the game, usually my kommandos deploy 6" in front of my trunks (which are at the edge of my deployment zone).
Now then since the kommandos infiltrated they cannot charge in the first player turn of the game, but since I am going second, that restriction is lifted. My opponent now has to either shoot them or go around their threat range if he wants to neuter the unit. Average charge range is 7 inches and kommandos have move through cover. Almost always get a 5 or 6 on that roll, so its around 12-13 inches that makes up their threat range.
I try to put them in areas that need more TLC in the battle. close to a thick of objectives, or near w valuable piece of terrain, or even as a speartip for the trukker boys.
It doesn't work all the time, and to be honest most of the time I had a first turn charge with them it was because of obscene charge rolls (5,5,6 through cover). But they are a great unit for that, the kommandoz can glance rear armor 10 with A4 on the charge and the burna like I said earlier mostly uses stikkbombs in the shooting phase, unless I'm close to something where it would destroy them (IG, orks, camo cloaks etc)
had the worst kicking of my orks life last week. I mean my orks have lost, but not like this.
We played 1850...
I ran something like:
biker boss
megaboss
lootas x 5 ( x 2)
meganobz x 5 (2 skorchas) in a rollla wagon
Nob bikers x 5 2 pk, painboy banner etc
2 mobs of trukk boys 12 strong with a pk nob in one, bc nob in other
1 mob of 20 boys in a rolla wagon
10 gretchin
dakkajet extra fixins
that was it..
He had.... IG/GK allies
IG:
Aegis line w/ lascannon
CCS marbo
2 leman russes w/ battle cannons/heavy bolters (accidently shot bolters at full bs instead of snap shots each turn)
1 manticore
2 hydras
4-5 chimeras full of infantry
10~ vets w/ meltas
heavy weapons lascannon team x 2
Auto cannon heavy weapons team x1 or 2
GK:
coteaz
5 purifiers mix of weapons, psycannon too i think
5 strike marines mix of swords/halbreds and psycannons as well + razorback
We ran out of time, so had to call game at end of T5.... I had 10 gretchin and 6 lootas alive vs... practically everything he had... I killed purfieirs, coteaz, marbo, 1 chimera, vets, 1 squad of guardsmen, CCS, and a razorback... if that.
We were playing the relic and longways which hurt... but I controlled the middle of the board for the majority of the game... In fact it came down to a single dice roll to decide the game... he unloaded everything he had on 4 boyz / 2 meganobs near relic and kiled 4 boys with the relic and 1 meganob and put 1 wound on the other... then came down to 2 last wounds from whatever it was, which he passed one, and failed one!!... He was 3-4" from the relic and unengaged, I still would have had my turn 5 as I went second... So for giggles we went ahead and rolled his LD check/move thru cover to see what would have happen had I rolled 2 2+'s there instead of 1... and a 5 or comes up!!! victory (due to brevity of the game.. we never rolled on it though as we had time constraints) might have actually gone to the orks had I not failed that save, but I did.
Woulda been sweet to make out with the relic and win the game with a mega nob 10 gretchin and 6 lootas vs. all of his army though... bittersweet maybe lol. I didn't want to win like that though, so I'm glad my friend got his first W on me but.... man his new list is REALLY rough...
Turn 1... nightfighting random chimera spot lights nob bikers who get manticored, leman russed, etc to the point of having only the warboss alive with 1 wound left....
My deffrolla wagon with MANZ immobilizedthemselveds on turn 1 also... in my own deployment zone before moving a single inch 1/36 chance.. cmon!!!!
I think he is dropping russes, pickin up 2nd manticore, dropping purifiers in lieu of 5 more strikers... adding autocannon to CCS and using quad gun over icarus.
I have thought of putting MANZ in a trukk, put 20 boys x 2 in wagons and another squad of 10-12 in a truckk.... (limited # of shoota boys.. i think around 36 or so... could try and convert some more up before next time or proxy my chppa boys.
Considering adding rokkit buggies, or rokkit copters... (i think copters outflanking possibly with biker boss attached can be devestating to this type of army....)
Considering dropping bikers down to 3 or 4
Considering dropping manz from 5 to 4
I really do not want to tailor my list to beat him specifically, its supposed to be a take-all-comers list. I figured you all should have some pretty good advice.
PotionsN'Balms wrote: Here is how it has been working for me.
Let's say I win the roll of to see who goes first, I then choose to go second.
We deploy armies as normal, then after everyone is done deploying you do the infiltrators. Let's just say there is no LOS blocking terrain in the middle of the field. The maximum I can put them is 18" away from the enemy. With 24" being the no man's land at the start of the game, usually my kommandos deploy 6" in front of my trunks (which are at the edge of my deployment zone).
Now then since the kommandos infiltrated they cannot charge in the first player turn of the game, but since I am going second, that restriction is lifted.
I'm not sure if I misunderstood you. It appears that your saying if you go second (or choose to go second) you can charge during turn 1 with infiltrators. I'd like to know where it says that this restriction is dropped, because the rulebook says under Infiltrate "A unit that deploys using these rules cannot charge in the first turn." meaning neither player can charge with infiltrating units during turn 1. It has nothing to do with being first or second player during turn 1.
Your kommandos may seem awesome cause your playing them wrong.
PotionsN'Balms wrote: Here is how it has been working for me.
Let's say I win the roll of to see who goes first, I then choose to go second.
We deploy armies as normal, then after everyone is done deploying you do the infiltrators. Let's just say there is no LOS blocking terrain in the middle of the field. The maximum I can put them is 18" away from the enemy. With 24" being the no man's land at the start of the game, usually my kommandos deploy 6" in front of my trunks (which are at the edge of my deployment zone).
Now then since the kommandos infiltrated they cannot charge in the first player turn of the game, but since I am going second, that restriction is lifted.
I'm not sure if I misunderstood you. It appears that your saying if you go second (or choose to go second) you can charge during turn 1 with infiltrators. I'd like to know where it says that this restriction is dropped, because the rulebook says under Infiltrate "A unit that deploys using these rules cannot charge in the first turn." meaning neither player can charge with infiltrating units during turn 1. It has nothing to do with being first or second player during turn 1.
Your kommandos may seem awesome cause your playing them wrong.
i think that "turn" in the BRB means "player turn" by default, and not game turn.
Infiltrators, scouts etc would use their abilities cannot assault on player turn 1 from my understanding, not game turn 1.
It's been clarified in the latest Rulebook FAQ( v1.0a) as well. In the main rulebook, all instances of "turn" refers to "player turn". Rulebook states a unit deploying using Infiltrator may not charge in the first turn, ergo first player's turn. Not first game turn. So if you're going second, you may charge.
PotionsN'Balms wrote: Here is how it has been working for me.
Let's say I win the roll of to see who goes first, I then choose to go second.
We deploy armies as normal, then after everyone is done deploying you do the infiltrators. Let's just say there is no LOS blocking terrain in the middle of the field. The maximum I can put them is 18" away from the enemy. With 24" being the no man's land at the start of the game, usually my kommandos deploy 6" in front of my trunks (which are at the edge of my deployment zone).
Now then since the kommandos infiltrated they cannot charge in the first player turn of the game, but since I am going second, that restriction is lifted.
I'm not sure if I misunderstood you. It appears that your saying if you go second (or choose to go second) you can charge during turn 1 with infiltrators. I'd like to know where it says that this restriction is dropped, because the rulebook says under Infiltrate "A unit that deploys using these rules cannot charge in the first turn." meaning neither player can charge with infiltrating units during turn 1. It has nothing to do with being first or second player during turn 1.
Your kommandos may seem awesome cause your playing them wrong.
Read the current Rulebook FAQ
Q: Can a unit with both the Infiltrate and Scout special rules deploy
as Infiltrators and then make a Scout redeployment before the game
begins? (p38)
A: Yes.
Q: The rulebook states "A unit that makes a Scout redeployment
cannot charge in the first turn." Does this mean that if your
opponent has the first turn and you go second, your Scouting unit
can charge? (p41)
A: Yes
Scout says the same thing in the rulebook, that a unit that does a scout move cannot charge in the first turn. But reading that FAQ above, it says if you go 2nd that you CAN charge. So since the wording is the same for infiltrators, you can use the same logic. It says you cant assault on the first turn, but since the FAQ says you can if your second, then charge away.
Yes if you don't redeploy scouts you can charge turn one if you go first, highly unlikely that you will be in range though.
Another idea that I need to playtest is snikrot + kommandoz arriving from reserve, the nerf to assault means that you have to possibly survive some shooting before you charge, so I was thinking of putting a big mek w/ kff attached to the squad as infiltrate now confers to the unit
So a 16 man squad w/ 2characters and you can fit 2 burnaz come in from the most appropriate table edge with A cover save.
PotionsN'Balms wrote: Yes if you don't redeploy scouts you can charge turn one if you go first, highly unlikely that you will be in range though.
Another idea that I need to playtest is snikrot + kommandoz arriving from reserve, the nerf to assault means that you have to possibly survive some shooting before you charge, so I was thinking of putting a big mek w/ kff attached to the squad as infiltrate now confers to the unit
So a 16 man squad w/ 2characters and you can fit 2 burnaz come in from the most appropriate table edge with A cover save.
Very costly though.
You could also do Ghaz still. When you come in, pick a nice rock to hide behind. Then, the next turn, pop out from behind the rock and wreck faces. (Burnas on the Kommandos might be good as well).
PotionsN'Balms wrote: Yes if you don't redeploy scouts you can charge turn one if you go first, highly unlikely that you will be in range though.
Another idea that I need to playtest is snikrot + kommandoz arriving from reserve, the nerf to assault means that you have to possibly survive some shooting before you charge, so I was thinking of putting a big mek w/ kff attached to the squad as infiltrate now confers to the unit
So a 16 man squad w/ 2characters and you can fit 2 burnaz come in from the most appropriate table edge with A cover save.
Very costly though.
You could also do Ghaz still. When you come in, pick a nice rock to hide behind. Then, the next turn, pop out from behind the rock and wreck faces. (Burnas on the Kommandos might be good as well).
ghaz is twice as expensive as w bigmek... With not much more to offer than a warboss in PA and an AS... And cybork
whembly wrote: Instead of using Killa Kans... what do ya'll think of Grots Battle Tanks?
I've got a squadron of them. I *loved* them in 5th, but I'm wary of using them in 6th. In 5th, I used them as a way to field Kustom Mega Blastas for great effect (5 shots at bs3!) - but now that Get's Hot affects vehicles, you have a 30% chance for them to lose a hull point for each volley they fire - and with 2 hull points each, it hurts.
I've not played them enough in 6th to really see if they suffer that much from it, but I recognise the danger well enough.
Do note that their price can build up quickly. The build I had, which had 4 tanks, with a Kommanda, all with KMB's (the Kommanda having a second one), came to 235pts. Considering they can move 2D6 but always fire, and each causes a separate tank shock check, and each has a passive 5+ invul, I found them well worth it in 5th. May start to field them with Rokkits instead, for about 205pts.
Yeah, the Get's Hot rule change really hurt Kustom Mega Blastas on our vehicles :( For that reason, I'm not convinced that grot tanks are much better than kanz under the current rules - hopefully that will all change when (or if) we get a new codex
I've been reading through the rulebook again and I caught a couple of things that really worry me.
One, Painboyz are characters? Sounds like they could just get picked off in challenges...
Two, this whole Focus Fire thing and per model cover save rules - good lord, how the hell does anybody fit 20-30 Ork Boyz behind a piece of cover? Is it even possible to fit 20 models within a 6" KFF bubble?
Two, this whole Focus Fire thing and per model cover save rules - good lord, how the hell does anybody fit 20-30 Ork Boyz behind a piece of cover? Is it even possible to fit 20 models within a 6" KFF bubble?
You dont, because KFF works per unit, not per model.
TedNugent wrote: I've been reading through the rulebook again and I caught a couple of things that really worry me.
One, Painboyz are characters? Sounds like they could just get picked off in challenges...
Two, this whole Focus Fire thing and per model cover save rules - good lord, how the hell does anybody fit 20-30 Ork Boyz behind a piece of cover? Is it even possible to fit 20 models within a 6" KFF bubble?
you just need 1 model within 6" of the KFF and the whole unit gets the 5+.
NamelessBard wrote: Yep, they are not great in a challenge. As to why would you accept the challenge? I don't really have an answer for that.
Biker Painboyz do ok in challenges though. It's at least 3 WS5 S4 attacks that re-roll to wound against most things, and you get Toughness 5, 2 wounds and a 5++ save followed by a 5+ FnP against Power weapons. Unless you're facing Abaddon, they odds are in your favor. I killed a Chaos Biker Sergent with Mark of Khorne yesterday with my Painboy, and I wasn't even the one charging.
TedNugent wrote: I've been reading through the rulebook again and I caught a couple of things that really worry me.
One, Painboyz are characters? Sounds like they could just get picked off in challenges...
Two, this whole Focus Fire thing and per model cover save rules - good lord, how the hell does anybody fit 20-30 Ork Boyz behind a piece of cover? Is it even possible to fit 20 models within a 6" KFF bubble?
You can simply turn down the challenge. Its a painboy, amongst Nobz, his attacks wont be missed, his squad buffs WILL be missed.
Also, I dont mind focus fire at all. Sure you cant fit all 20-30 boyz in cover, BUT focus fire wounds DO NOT pour over into the rest of the squad. So if your squad takes 15 wounds, and only 10 were the focus fire targets, then those 5 extra wounds go into the ground. So really, thats a plus.
TedNugent wrote: I've been reading through the rulebook again and I caught a couple of things that really worry me.
One, Painboyz are characters? Sounds like they could just get picked off in challenges...
Two, this whole Focus Fire thing and per model cover save rules - good lord, how the hell does anybody fit 20-30 Ork Boyz behind a piece of cover? Is it even possible to fit 20 models within a 6" KFF bubble?
you just need 1 model within 6" of the KFF and the whole unit gets the 5+.
remember to watch out for people maneuvering shooters into firing lanes at that 1-2 boys within 6" of KFF... firing with that squad first, killing the boyz barely out of KFF range, then firing on them with a larger squad b.
It hasn't happened to me many times, but i learned the importance of not spreading out too much when I Have the KFF unless I have their firing lanes blocked
TedNugent wrote: I've been reading through the rulebook again and I caught a couple of things that really worry me.
One, Painboyz are characters? Sounds like they could just get picked off in challenges...
Two, this whole Focus Fire thing and per model cover save rules - good lord, how the hell does anybody fit 20-30 Ork Boyz behind a piece of cover? Is it even possible to fit 20 models within a 6" KFF bubble?
you just need 1 model within 6" of the KFF and the whole unit gets the 5+.
remember to watch out for people maneuvering shooters into firing lanes at that 1-2 boys within 6" of KFF... firing with that squad first, killing the boyz barely out of KFF range, then firing on them with a larger squad b.
It hasn't happened to me many times, but i learned the importance of not spreading out too much when I Have the KFF unless I have their firing lanes blocked
That's actually quite brilliant and useful advise. Thanks!
TedNugent wrote: I've been reading through the rulebook again and I caught a couple of things that really worry me.
One, Painboyz are characters? Sounds like they could just get picked off in challenges...
Two, this whole Focus Fire thing and per model cover save rules - good lord, how the hell does anybody fit 20-30 Ork Boyz behind a piece of cover? Is it even possible to fit 20 models within a 6" KFF bubble?
you just need 1 model within 6" of the KFF and the whole unit gets the 5+.
remember to watch out for people maneuvering shooters into firing lanes at that 1-2 boys within 6" of KFF... firing with that squad first, killing the boyz barely out of KFF range, then firing on them with a larger squad b.
It hasn't happened to me many times, but i learned the importance of not spreading out too much when I Have the KFF unless I have their firing lanes blocked
ya I see what you're saying. I run my blobs like a yin/yang symbol so the ones from the non-kff mob wraps in behind the kff mob to minimize that hazard.
On a side note.. anyone else noticed that the flakk trakk n aeronautica doesn't come with a flakk gun...nor can it be bought the upgrade or swap it for any of its existing wargear.
Some big mek somewhere is good at convincin' dem forge world boyz dat big shootaz are dead good at hittin' dem planes.
How comfortable are dakka players about fielding stuff from auronautica in normal 40k games - forge world stuff always seems to have a mixed reception.
I've built a few flakk trukks and am weighing them up against the aegeis defence line.. AV10 vs T7... seem unlikely to survive as long.
I'm actually seriously looking at some more Forgeworld units. The Battlewagon with a Supa Kannon particularly, since it seems like a nice addition to a longer ranged shooty Ork list. Fill it with a minium unit of Lootas, turn three into meks, give the wagon an 'Ard Case upgrade, and you have a rather solid long range firing platform. Used in a list with lots of lootas, a SAG, and Big Guns, one has a very nice amount of longer ranged firepower. (it's a 70pt 60" str9 ap3 ordnance large blast, which lowers transport capacity to 6)
I'm also growing increasingly interested in the Lifta Droppa - particularly considering how deadly it's potentially become in 6th. (D3 pens or D6 glances!?). I'd generally be very interested to hear how other players have found them in play.
As for Aeronautica... the Flakka Trukk is interesting, as it can go flat out and fire it's weapons as normal, but at 75pts at a model is seems a bit steep, particularly considering you'll be getting a better result out of lootas for the same price as two of these.
The Attack Fighta is actually interesting, particularly in its ability to fire 3 str8 shots at fliers - but again you're hitting on 5+. It's *touching* on what I would prefer the Blitza Bomma to be, having rokkits, though.
The Flakk Trakk can actually put out a lot of firewpower, and is quite tough by Ork standards. Not sure if it's worth 90pts a pop, though.
About putting meks in vehicles; do all Mek's Tools rolls have to happen at the same time? For instance if I have 3 meks in a wagon that's lost a hull point. I might not want all 3 of my meks working to fix one HP, especially since each extra roll is another chance to shake the wagon. My guts tell me I probably have to roll all at once, but I'm hoping there's an excuse to do it one at a time.
They happen before the Shooting phase (or at the start of, or whatever- before the actual Dakka happens) and so you can, I believe, do them one at a time- if you manage the fix you wanted, then the rest of them can go ahead and shoot whatever they're shooting.
Definitely squigs, there aren't nearly enough squigs in 40k. Besides, scarabs are supposed to be Fearless, and snotlings definitely don't fit the bill. Unless you're using Grotsnik and give them cyborky heads.
Also, thanks Anvildude, that seems like a solid enough argument for doing tools one at a time.
They happen before the Shooting phase (or at the start of, or whatever- before the actual Dakka happens) and so you can, I believe, do them one at a time- if you manage the fix you wanted, then the rest of them can go ahead and shoot whatever they're shooting.
The rule reads as such (including FAQ amendment):
”In each of your Shooting phases, instead of firing his weapons, a Mekboy may choose to repair a single friendly vehicle that he is in base contact with or embarked upon. Roll a D6 – if the result is a 4 or more, you may restore a Hull Point lost earlier in the battle, or repair a Weapon Destroyed or Immobilised result suffered earlier in the battle; this is effective immediately. This could allow a previously destroyed weapon to fire in that shooting phase. On the roll of a 1, the Mek gets a bit carried away and the vehicle counts as shaken
There is no mention of the roll being done prior to, or at the start of the shooting phase: it takes place during the shooting phase, when the unit with the Mek(s) is firing (during which the mek can opt to repair instead of firing). Since an entire firing action is done simultaneously, the Mek's rolls would be simultaneous.
It works the same way as Bomb Squigs, which are released by models whom do so instead of firing.
Yeah, it's something I've considered as well. Snotlings as scarbs. You'll need a big fat mommy ork though to be spiders and then use the clanking destroyers from Kromlech as troops.
Let us know any spider ideas! I think I'd rather loot a monolith anyway.
How about a looted vehicle that is cover with moss/fungus as a spider?
Automatically Appended Next Post: The looted vehicle has a claw on it so that it grabs the dead orks from the field so that instead of the fungus being spread elsewhere on the world it's forcedcto colonize in that vehicle thus spawning grots!
That could be good. A Grot driving something like a BobCat but instead of a plow on the front, it would have a boon arm or similar for the klaws on the Spider. That could be fun
They happen before the Shooting phase (or at the start of, or whatever- before the actual Dakka happens) and so you can, I believe, do them one at a time- if you manage the fix you wanted, then the rest of them can go ahead and shoot whatever they're shooting.
The rule reads as such (including FAQ amendment):
”In each of your Shooting phases, instead of firing his weapons, a Mekboy may choose to repair a single friendly vehicle that he is in base contact with or embarked upon. Roll a D6 – if the result is a 4 or more, you may restore a Hull Point lost earlier in the battle, or repair a Weapon Destroyed or Immobilised result suffered earlier in the battle; this is effective immediately. This could allow a previously destroyed weapon to fire in that shooting phase. On the roll of a 1, the Mek gets a bit carried away and the vehicle counts as shaken
There is no mention of the roll being done prior to, or at the start of the shooting phase: it takes place during the shooting phase, when the unit with the Mek(s) is firing (during which the mek can opt to repair instead of firing). Since an entire firing action is done simultaneously, the Mek's rolls would be simultaneous.
It works the same way as Bomb Squigs, which are released by models whom do so instead of firing.
Ah. The Cursed FAQ. In the book, it's specifically before the Shooting phase (or whatever). Well, sorry about that!
valminder wrote: We came to the conclusion that Meganobz made from terminator armors was not orkish enough ... too smallish we said.
But what about Megagrotz ... terminator armor, grot head, mechanical Kromlech arm for a klam and mechanical arm to hold a shoota !!!!
Yea I wouldnt mind seeing a Grot in terminator armor, because comparing the two, the size difference is great. But on an Ork....I mean the thighs along make that conversion look goofy
Dr. What wrote: If Orks really get hurt badly enough, us Ork players will either recieve a FAQ with some updates or we'll get an entirely new update.
lol you don't know games workshop very well then.
Mat Ward manufactured the 2 most covered which some people i know have call them codexs before.
they had a chance to fix it in 6ed but ballsed it up so bad my club won't swap to 6ed
may Gork and Mork be on your side but i don't think even they can save you
Dr. What wrote: If Orks really get hurt badly enough, us Ork players will either recieve a FAQ with some updates or we'll get an entirely new update.
lol you don't know games workshop very well then.
Mat Ward manufactured the 2 most covered which some people i know have call them codexs before.
they had a chance to fix it in 6ed but ballsed it up so bad my club won't swap to 6ed
may Gork and Mork be on your side but i don't think even they can save you
About 80 pages behind there, but I'll reply.
1) GW has done updates for a straggling army before (Daemons). GW is still capable of doing Chapter Approved updates and the likes.
2) I HATE when people blame Matt Ward for problems in the game. Necrons were designed for 6th. Are they unbeatable? No. (If you complain about Scythe Spam, all you have to do is take out what little is on the table... and if you complain about GK, perhaps you need to develop some decent tactics to challenge them. Each game should involve different tactics, that's part of the fun.)
3) I have yet to see any "cheese/unbalance" in 6th edition. If you spend 500 points on a "Death Star," then you've got less to put into the rest of your army. Everything in 2 Land Raiders? Great! I've got some Lascannons/Power Klaws (Possibly on a Warbiker)/Gauss/A Plan.
GK troops had the ability to ID Nobz and Warbosses, cut straight through Mega Armor, and to top it off, every turn of an assault they had the ability to wipe out over 40% of your Ork Boyz models *per turn* (on average) before Fearless wounds. None of which was FAQ'd. None of which was updated before 6e. And it's pretty obvious that they were recognized as problems considering that in 6e, Fearless wounds were taken out and Halberds were changed to AP3.
I don't find the idea of invalidating the utility of 60% of the useful units in the Codex "fun," and I don't find the idea of turning an army that was designed to be assaulty into a shooty army, and I don't find the idea that I can't even through wargear shenanigans make my favorite units viable.
I bitch about the GK often enough, but really thats only because I think the way purifiers work is just obscene. Really the rest of the dex isnt too bad, besides the few things here and there that are.....I guess "Flying Landraider" worthy
Testify wrote: Thing about shooting templates at orks, is you only ever get to shoot them once
lol you forgot overwatch and Charge is 2D6 so.. you have to be 2" away now
Only if you ever roll two 1's on the charge result. By that logic, the upside is that I should only charge whenever I'm 12 inches away for that magical double 6! (and it's delicious fun for all when that happens )
Since this is the Ork tactica Thread, I'd figure I'd ask here.
I run Imperial Guard and I thought of using some Orks as meat shield/ assault troops, nothing too costy or big, but still capable and set myself on getting a 'ard boyz mob, 15 boyz with a big shoota, nob with twin-linked shoot, power klaw bosspole and with a warboss kitted the same (minus pole). The thing is the 'eavy armour make a 'ard boy worth twice as much for what is essentially just better armour and nothing else.
So the thing is, go like that, or go with just more boyz? oh- they'll be armed with shoota+choppa, to maximize the natural melee capabilities of the Ork.
General consensus is that more bodies is better. Also, I'm not sure what you mean by shoota+choppa, as you can only pick one. Plus 15 probably isn't enough, unless you throw them in a Battlewagon; and then you should shoot for 19-20.
I would definently drop the eavy armor and just get more boyz (20-30). Also, give your nob a bp/pk and maybe eavy armor. Give all the boyz shootas (the assault 2 guns) because in 6th, they are way better with them over 2x cc weps.
I would consider taking a big mek with a kff over a warboss. If you do just take a KFF and maybe eavy armor. If you stick with the boss your current loadout should be fine (give him eavy armor, pk and maybe an attack squig).
Oi.
Small tactica: orks snipers. 5 burnas but 3 changed to meks with big shootas. Meks are IC (i think). it should be effective against plasma veterans or to kill sergeant (no duel for PK!). I'll test it.
ninjaska wrote: Oi.
Small tactica: orks snipers. 5 burnas but 3 changed to meks with big shootas. Meks are IC (i think). it should be effective against plasma veterans or to kill sergeant (no duel for PK!). I'll test it.
Meks are not IC but simple Characters. Anyway they can snipe. I've had this is mind, this can prove effective since BS has a long range over fire templates.
ninjaska wrote: Oi.
Small tactica: orks snipers. 5 burnas but 3 changed to meks with big shootas. Meks are IC (i think). it should be effective against plasma veterans or to kill sergeant (no duel for PK!). I'll test it.
Hum yes this is to be tested.
But let me suggest to try with a lootas mob instead of burnas.
Oi
lootas have diffrent targets than big shootas. 9sniper shots would be wasted when you try to destroy Rhino or Venom.
Maybe it's worth to put burnas meks in "self healing kanonwagon". 2-3 templates won't make it "burnawagon" but still it will get some antiinfantry defence.
I think I was not clear : I don't mean to use the 3 meks to shoot at transports
Your idea is to get 3 meks with 2 burnas and use the mob as a "snipers squad". In this situation, I think the 2 burnas are useless since you are shooting at a SM squad 36" away. So I suggest to use lootas , so at least the 2 lootas and the 3 meks can all shoot the same SM squad. You still have your snipers, but with additional dakka..
Of course, if I want to shoot at transport, then I will just use a normal mob of lootas, but that's not the point here ;')
XC18 wrote: I think I was not clear : I don't mean to use the 3 meks to shoot at transports
Your idea is to get 3 meks with 2 burnas and use the mob as a "snipers squad".
In this situation, I think the 2 burnas are useless since you are shooting at a SM squad 36" away. So I suggest to use lootas , so at least the 2 lootas and the 3 meks can all shoot the same SM squad.
You still have your snipers, but with additional dakka..
Of course, if I want to shoot at transport, then I will just use a normal mob of lootas, but that's not the point here ;')
ninjaska wrote: Oi.
Small tactica: orks snipers. 5 burnas but 3 changed to meks with big shootas. Meks are IC (i think). it should be effective against plasma veterans or to kill sergeant (no duel for PK!). I'll test it.
Meks are not IC but simple Characters. Anyway they can snipe. I've had this is mind, this can prove effective since BS has a long range over fire templates.
I don't think its intended that all Mek's are characters. 'Mek boys' cover both meks, and the big mek. So as the 3 meks in the unit are not leading the unit, they probably shouldn't count as characters. But that's for YMDC and your local club to figure out. But I'd say the intent is that only the big mek is a character.
KingCracker wrote: I bitch about the GK often enough, but really thats only because I think the way purifiers work is just obscene. Really the rest of the dex isnt too bad, besides the few things here and there that are.....I guess "Flying Landraider" worthy
do you not understand that everyone can have Purifiers now well other then Nids but noone has played Nids since 4ed.
from what i have seen of 6ed orks will be the same
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ashfire wrote: I think orks can still pose a deadly threat!
Ummm to other Orks maybe
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Inquisitor Jex wrote: Since this is the Ork tactica Thread, I'd figure I'd ask here.
I run Imperial Guard and I thought of using some Orks as meat shield/ assault troops, nothing too costy or big, but still capable and set myself on getting a 'ard boyz mob, 15 boyz with a big shoota, nob with twin-linked shoot, power klaw bosspole and with a warboss kitted the same (minus pole). The thing is the 'eavy armour make a 'ard boy worth twice as much for what is essentially just better armour and nothing else.
So the thing is, go like that, or go with just more boyz? oh- they'll be armed with shoota+choppa, to maximize the natural melee capabilities of the Ork.
Anything orks can do IG dose it better for cheaper
Just saying anyone can ally in something isn't a fix to a problem. That's like saying all armies but nids have vendettas because they can ally with IG, or that IG are good at close combat because they can ally with orks.
And orks are still a dead hard army. They're still one of the top ones you see at tourneys for a good reason
Also, at the "IG can do anything Orks can do cheaper"... no, they cant.
Orks have the cheapest form of autocannons in the game (lootas) have the cheapest way to get AV 14 on the field (battlewagons) and can have effective infantry for cheaper (infantry platoons start out cheaper, but require far more upgrades to make them worthwhile)
ninjaska wrote: Oi
lootas have diffrent targets than big shootas. 9sniper shots would be wasted when you try to destroy Rhino or Venom.
Maybe it's worth to put burnas meks in "self healing kanonwagon". 2-3 templates won't make it "burnawagon" but still it will get some antiinfantry defence.
I've been running this since I started. 'Ard Case gunwagon with Big Mek KFF, 3 Mek min-Burnas and Grot Riggers. You either destroy it outright on the first turn, of it lasts the whole dang game.
KingCracker wrote: I bitch about the GK often enough, but really thats only because I think the way purifiers work is just obscene. Really the rest of the dex isnt too bad, besides the few things here and there that are.....I guess "Flying Landraider" worthy
do you not understand that everyone can have Purifiers now well other then Nids but noone has played Nids since 4ed.
from what i have seen of 6ed orks will be the same
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ashfire wrote: I think orks can still pose a deadly threat!
Ummm to other Orks maybe
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Inquisitor Jex wrote: Since this is the Ork tactica Thread, I'd figure I'd ask here.
I run Imperial Guard and I thought of using some Orks as meat shield/ assault troops, nothing too costy or big, but still capable and set myself on getting a 'ard boyz mob, 15 boyz with a big shoota, nob with twin-linked shoot, power klaw bosspole and with a warboss kitted the same (minus pole). The thing is the 'eavy armour make a 'ard boy worth twice as much for what is essentially just better armour and nothing else.
So the thing is, go like that, or go with just more boyz? oh- they'll be armed with shoota+choppa, to maximize the natural melee capabilities of the Ork.
Anything orks can do IG dose it better for cheaper
Oh looky there, a multi account. Thats a big no no Finally.
I just bought 2 Ork Battleforces and I'm straight up going to put all the Nobz from the boyz mobs on Warbikes.
25 points for a PK, 5 points for the 'eavy Armor, 5 points for the Bosspole, 16 points for the Nob....36-41 points, no thanks, that's 6 Shoota Boyz. 6 wounds and 12 times the shooting output, plus 6 more bodies for Mob Rule.
I don't think its intended that all Mek's are characters. 'Mek boys' cover both meks, and the big mek. So as the 3 meks in the unit are not leading the unit, they probably shouldn't count as characters. But that's for YMDC and your local club to figure out. But I'd say the intent is that only the big mek is a character.
Nope, Mekboys cover Mekboys, which are characters. Big Meks have a separate entry in which they are also character. No need for anything to figure out.
I don't think its intended that all Mek's are characters. 'Mek boys' cover both meks, and the big mek. So as the 3 meks in the unit are not leading the unit, they probably shouldn't count as characters. But that's for YMDC and your local club to figure out. But I'd say the intent is that only the big mek is a character.
Nope, Mekboys cover Mekboys, which are characters. Big Meks have a separate entry in which they are also character. No need for anything to figure out.
Yeah its pretty plainly laid out.
It even has good fluff justification, since meks tend to lead groups of burna boys and lootas and would effectively serve as "sarges".
but then again i know how to face my armor and take cover saves very well 
but I agree actually. I am starting to see that my Meganobz can get the job done well themselves i just worry about leadership 7... it seems SO DUMB they can't get bosspoles themselves for being so dead killy. Fluff wise it blows my mind meganobz wouldn't feel nearly fearless in megaarmor despite other gitz dying ... i do is it the other way as well though "if armor this good is failing i need to get outta here!"
, but i was wondering if i should go for nob bikers?
grots walk in on east flank hiding behind ruin trying to get to obj.... ( i didnt realize mephiston would be able to get to them so easily with 12" movement and 
s!
just............ 
?
Finally.