Agreed. There are no other meks than the three which can lead burna/loota squads. A big mek is a mekboy as much as a chapter master is a tactical marine. If anything he is a meknob.
Billagio wrote: I dont know why he thinks orks are bad army... Maybe hes not playing them right?
From the way hes been bashing them in EVERY Orks thread on here? Id guess hes either a Stelek follower on a mission. Or he bought his Ork army in 5th edition as suggested by a netlister, and now that the BEST ork build in 5th, is at best, so so in 6th, he is bitching because he cannot win. Im going with the latter.
Billagio wrote: I dont know why he thinks orks are bad army... Maybe hes not playing them right?
From the way hes been bashing them in EVERY Orks thread on here? Id guess hes either a Stelek follower on a mission. Or he bought his Ork army in 5th edition as suggested by a netlister, and now that the BEST ork build in 5th, is at best, so so in 6th, he is bitching because he cannot win. Im going with the latter.
I play SW and Ork really have lost there bite over each edition, dose anyone remember the dread chopper.
The mob up rule ment you really have to worry about Orks in melee and you had to kill every last Ork.
After the 4ed codex i started seeing Warboss with units of Nobs run off the table from shooting.
No more choppers thank the emperor ( about time i got my 2+ reroll save )
But saddy Orks still had a chance of winning melee if they had a Nob with a PK but now thanks to the Challenge rule
i can ether solo the Nob with a Wolf Lord ( 5 re-rolls are very helpful when your dead ) or just have the WG challenge the Nob so he only gets 1 wound on the combat and then have the GH finish off the unit. FYI this also work on the Big Mek
Also Ratlings consistently kill the Big Mek turn 1 for less points then a Vindicares Assassin and i still get a Leman Russ Battle Tank
So maybe York is right. In a tournament draw i got tyranids as my first opponent and my first thought was easy win not what is his army list.
i feel the same way about Orks in 6ed and so do most people i know.
I wonder if you actually have played orks, or are just looking for places to try and stir up "strong emotions". (Hey, maybe it's someone who's upset that Orks are still playable in 6th).
Anyway, back to the topic at hand: I'm looking to create a Dakka Wall list, I've written up something as such:
HQ: Bigmek + SAG
ELITES Lootas x 15
Lootas x 15
Lootas x 6 (3 changed to Meks)
TROOPS 20 x Shoota Boyz, 2x Big Shootas, Nob w/ BP + PK 20 x Shoota Boyz, 2x Big Shootas, Nob w/ BP + PK 20 x Shoota Boyz, 2x Big Shootas, Nob w/ BP + PK 10 x Grots + Runtherder
FAST ATTACK Dakka Jet w/ Fighta Ace + Additional Supa Shoota
HEAVY SUPPORT Big Guns - x3 Kannons, 10 Grot Crew
Big Guns - x3 Kannons, 10 Grot Crew
Battlewagon - 'Ard Case, x2 Big Shootas, Supa Kannon
FORTIFICATION Aegis Defence Line w/ Quad Gun
The smaller unit of Lootas with Meks sit in the Battlewagon on repair duty, while the SAG Mek sits with one of the Big Guns unit. All the units (save the Shoota Boyz, potentially) stay behind the ADL and unleash hell across the board. I'd very much like to have a second Dakka Jet, but at 1750pts it's tough to fit the bugger in. The Shoota Boyz, depending on the mission, may rap around the wall to prevent any deep striking and/or infiltrating and/or outflanking shenanigans, though I'm unsure how to deal with them past that. So used to keeping them as a 2nd/3rd wave unit in an aggressive Ork force.
The Supa Kannon (A Forgeworld upgrade for the Battlewagon) on the Battlewagon is 60", str9, ap3, ordnance (at 10pts cheaper than a Killkanon) - and should provide some nice longer range support, though it reduces carrying capacity to 6. I COULD free up 30pts and replace it with a Lifta Droppa, and risk dealing with that 4+ hit-or-no-hit.
Or should I really cut away points to afford that second Dakka Jet?
Running this list tonight. Does anyone else feel like the Ork meta is just completely blown? I feel like all sorts of strange army builds of mine have been seeing more success. This particular list has been doing really well.
Boss stays in reserve with Deffkoptas for outflank, Wartrakks speed out front to pop light transports and run interference and beef up target saturation, Battlewagons push one flank to maintain pressure while bikers turboboot into priority targets. Lootas sit behind the Aegis and shell out a ton of anti-armor and pressure elite units.
I run 5 lootas x 3 alot, and rarely if ever give up first blood with them.. I mean... go to ground in any area terrain for 3+ or 2+ when can find some ruins between you and the firer... or 3+/2+ when night fighting in effect w/o going to ground most times.
If someone wastes good fire power on 5 dudes who will go to ground.... I'm all for that!
I don't even care if they get first blood on them, which they rarely do. because they would probably score first blood on a trukk anyways (unless i get to go first and can pop a transport with rokkits/lootas)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
matphat wrote: Running this list tonight. Does anyone else feel like the Ork meta is just completely blown? I feel like all sorts of strange army builds of mine have been seeing more success. This particular list has been doing really well.
Boss stays in reserve with Deffkoptas for outflank, Wartrakks speed out front to pop light transports and run interference and beef up target saturation, Battlewagons push one flank to maintain pressure while bikers turboboot into priority targets. Lootas sit behind the Aegis and shell out a ton of anti-armor and pressure elite units.
It's strange to me the shift that ork lists are having... I used to run max 40 boys at 2k... now run 46 - 58 I think? 18 x 2 and 10 x 1 and 12 x 1 ... so while I used to LOVE running less boys, I'm having more fun playing with more recently. I can remember the negative reception I have on dakka when I confessed I only ran 40 boys at 2k. I have more fun recently because my playstyle is different than what it has been, but I feel like I'm not quite as competitive. IDK though. Haven't got to play a lot recently....
Strange, or neat though that others are starting to think boys-light lists might do alright/actually be competitive.... Makes me feel good that others have had similiar results with lists like that. A lot better than reception I had previously when bringing up lists with just 40 boys at 2k... lol
That's an interesting point about the lootas. If you've got an empty El slots, switch it around to 5 mans. 3 to 6 - 5 man loota squads would probably be annoying as hell to deal with.
I've been running boyz light lists recently with average success. I can't say for certain it was due to only having a few boyz though. The reason being is I've been taking a unit of mega nobs and a unit of nob bikers with two units of boyz in a battlewagon.
Next game, I'm going to try running 4 battlewagons full of boyz to see how that works
3000 points
ORKS:
Big Mek w/ KKF
Mad Doc
2 x Warboss w/ eavy armour, bosspole, PK
4 x Battlewagon w/ deffrolla, grot riggers, 2x big shootas, RPJ Big gunz w/ 3 kannons + 9 grots
Looted wagon w/ RPJ + Ram
ADL w/ Quad gun
IG:
CCS w/ 4 plasma
Marbo
Vet squad w/ Autocannon + 3 plasma
Venedetta
Maincore
Basic strategy:
Meganobs go in Looted Wagon --> up the table
Shoota boyz go in each battlewagon --> up the table
Lootas + Big Gunz go behind ADL or in high ground
CCS + Vet squad go behind the ADL going to ground and using GBITF to get up and fire at full BS (they also fire the quad gun).
Manicore hides
The meganobs are troops, but they can't really score with the Doc. Around T5, I'll start putting him in challenges to hope he dies if necessary.
if you make him warlord, and he gets outflank ability.... imagine the possibilities... outflanking manz w/ FNP? Umm... sign me up! (if they got kombi skorchas might end up roasting somethin the turn they drive on too)...
Regardless of him getting outflank... if you hold his vehicle in reserve you can deploy/insert it wherever you want from your long edge, and more or less "pick" what unit he has to drive towards to prevent kiting.
But then you won't have him/MANZ hitting AS soon.... When I run them I typically deploy them centrally so it doesn't matter too much which way he ends up going.
i mean if someone is shooting a manticore at your lootas, or anything for that matter... I sure would rather them kill/route a 5 man squad instead of a 10... and I rarely use my elite slots so!
If you're taking Nobs and Big Shootas in squads, give the Big Shootas to the Nobs (yes, you are allowed to do that). That way, any es they roll with the Str.5 weapon can be allocated.
Anvildude wrote: If you're taking Nobs and Big Shootas in squads, give the Big Shootas to the Nobs (yes, you are allowed to do that). That way, any es they roll with the Str.5 weapon can be allocated.
^ I started giving my nobz big shoota's gitfindas/scopes etc to represent their ability to do this.
Be prepared people will argue with you that a nob isn't an ork
I just got my hands on IA 8, and I'm wondering: which is the best way to run the dread mob army list? I was thinking of using it as a kind of "dread wall" using dreads and mega dreads kind of like the the old kan walls. I just don't know what to put behind the walls. should my spanna and burna boyz be on foot, in scrap tucks so I can use my FA and HS slots for more kans and mega dreads, in warcoptas to spam invul saves, or in big trakks for durability?
Anvildude wrote: If you're taking Nobs and Big Shootas in squads, give the Big Shootas to the Nobs (yes, you are allowed to do that). That way, any es they roll with the Str.5 weapon can be allocated.
^ I started giving my nobz big shoota's gitfindas/scopes etc to represent their ability to do this.
Be prepared people will argue with you that a nob isn't an ork
Honestly, thats good advice. Be prepared to prove to people that Nobz can indeed take a Bigshoota. If they still dont believe you, show them the nob in the back of the book that has a bigshoota
NamelessBard wrote: Are you giving up first blood a lot in that list with the 5 man loota units?
Actually, in spite of how it looks, the Lootas are some of the hardest to kill in that list because they way in the back field and are going to ground behind the Aegis when threatened. Makes them tough. I also tend to have some boyz back there running interference if I see deep strikers, etc..
Also, a quick update on my game last night, with the list above. It was a pretty solid game. The Wagons were damn near unstoppable. Buggies ran interference but never really did any damage. Bikers struggled with terrain a lot but finally got some action, though not much. Bikerboss outflanked with the Koptas and just ruined my opponents gunline. Lootas were, as always, star players. And lastly, I'll never run Lootas without an ADL every again. It's just so worth it to get the 2+ go to ground save putting them behind it.
I won on round 5 with Linebreaker and 3pts worth of Objectives.
Only problame with going to ground is that you cant do anything the next turn. My opponents tend to just keep forcing me to g2g or take the hits since I wont be able to do anything with them if I keep going to ground :(
Billagio wrote: Only problame with going to ground is that you cant do anything the next turn. My opponents tend to just keep forcing me to g2g or take the hits since I wont be able to do anything with them if I keep going to ground :(
You can still snap fire.
You just can't launch assaults/move/run.
So the lads like lootas who already got a cozy spot somewhere, can go to ground all they like (as long as they dont mind snap firing)...
Going to ground only really becomes an issue when You got boyz who want to assault next turn from my experience!
Even if you didnt have a way to shoot.....if your running a x5 mob, thats only 75pts sitting there, taking shots and shrugging them off. Id bet dollars to cents that they would be using far more points then that shooting at em
KingCracker wrote: Even if you didnt have a way to shoot.....if your running a x5 mob, thats only 75pts sitting there, taking shots and shrugging them off. Id bet dollars to cents that they would be using far more points then that shooting at em
Yeah, it really is a good idea that you guys have just turned me on to. Thanks!
Most long range weapons that can hit them on T 1 or 2 really shouldn't be used to shoot 75 point El units that can get a 2+ or 3+ save by going to ground. When things move up the field, opponent troop choices make more sense to shoot at them but they'll typically still be wasting shots.
Billagio wrote: Hmm. Probably because I like running them in larger groups to gain fearless. Ill have to look into splitting them.
I think it may be dependent on who you play, but as an all-comers, I think it's a great idea. (which, I haven't actually tried yet)
Going for fearless was a legit reason in 5th ed. In 6th, since you can go to ground and only lose half of your hits (compared to others who lose a lot more) it's a much more reasonable tactic. If you're behind a ADL, you need 12 AP [any] wounds on you with a 5 man unit (who goes to ground) before to force them into a Ld test. 12 wounds is crazy! People will learn not to fire against these things because it's such a frustration.
12 lootas, 3 meks (only because i dont have enough lootas, and this was for a WYSIWYG game)
30 grots,
2X-30 slugga boyz, 3 big shootas, nob with PK and pole
2X- 20 shoota boyz, 2 big shootas, Nob with Pole.
7 Nob bikers, 2 PKs, 2 BC, 2 Boss poles, 1 Waagh banner, and a Dok. all cybork.
I have played 4 games with this list, and had mixed results. against a Blood Angels,player I tied 7-7 in a Scouring game.
Against a VERY shooty Wolves, i was wiped by turn 4.
Against a CSM with Tau allies i very nearly wiped him in 7 turns, losing only the bikers and one unit of boyz.
againts Nids, i was wiped after 6 turns. admittedly, this one was due to glaring tactical errors, and bad scatter. the sag never scattered less than 8 inches the 4 turns it could fire.
Think about this for a second. He's carrying a 5+ cover save on his back, so a 4+ armor save is not going to be a gigantic difference. The Cybork is also going to useless to ranged damage. If you're going to be receiving a low AP value, your save would reduce to the 5+ cover. If you were receiving a high AP value, the save would reduce to the 4+ armor save from the 'Eavy Armor. Therefore the Cybork would only be useful in the narrow circumstance in which your KFF Mek was receiving a Power Weapon attack which negated your 'eavy Armor save in close combat.
Close combat of any kind (KFF does jack for you in CC)
Either the cybork or the Eavy Armour is helpful in these situations.
Flamers are Ap 5 - eavy armour and cybork works. Cybork still works on the more powerful ones.
CC weapons are mostly not AP 4 or less - Armour works, cybork also works on power weapons.
Ignores cover weapons vary, but are going to get more common. Cybork works on them all, Eavy rmour may work.
Whirlwind Castellan missiles are AP 5 - Eavy rmour and Cybork both work.
I wouldn't necessarily take both. Usually i just take Cybork, but both have a use, and sometimes it can be a game-saver to have both. Plus it's 5 pts. IF you have nothing else that needs a 5 pt upgrade, then why not tank the mek up 4+ saves are easier to make, and you have a 5+ for when that's ruled out.
12 lootas, 3 meks (only because i dont have enough lootas, and this was for a WYSIWYG game)
30 grots,
2X-30 slugga boyz, 3 big shootas, nob with PK and pole
2X- 20 shoota boyz, 2 big shootas, Nob with Pole.
7 Nob bikers, 2 PKs, 2 BC, 2 Boss poles, 1 Waagh banner, and a Dok. all cybork.
I have played 4 games with this list, and had mixed results. against a Blood Angels,player I tied 7-7 in a Scouring game.
Against a VERY shooty Wolves, i was wiped by turn 4.
Against a CSM with Tau allies i very nearly wiped him in 7 turns, losing only the bikers and one unit of boyz.
againts Nids, i was wiped after 6 turns. admittedly, this one was due to glaring tactical errors, and bad scatter. the sag never scattered less than 8 inches the 4 turns it could fire.
I feel like you want your HQs to be better than they are. You have entirely too many points spent on HQ slots what would be much better served in troops or elites.
Ork HQ's aren't really the BS-Powerful powerhouses other codexes have, with a couple of exceptions.
They are more utility-hq's (even the SCs) than something you'd want to hinge your plan on.
Don't get me wrong. Our HQ's are cool, and not too horribly expensive in pts (some are overcosted tho), but Orks win their battles through cunnin' use of orks, not by having the uber-est character.
Billagio wrote: Hmm. Probably because I like running them in larger groups to gain fearless. Ill have to look into splitting them.
I think it may be dependent on who you play, but as an all-comers, I think it's a great idea. (which, I haven't actually tried yet)
Going for fearless was a legit reason in 5th ed. In 6th, since you can go to ground and only lose half of your hits (compared to others who lose a lot more) it's a much more reasonable tactic. If you're behind a ADL, you need 12 AP [any] wounds on you with a 5 man unit (who goes to ground) before to force them into a Ld test. 12 wounds is crazy! People will learn not to fire against these things because it's such a frustration.
Guess ill invest in an ADL. It goes for pretty cheap on ebay (whithout quad gun) but my friends dont take many flyers so I dont really need one.
ninjaska wrote: Oi.
Small tactica: orks snipers. 5 burnas but 3 changed to meks with big shootas. Meks are IC (i think). it should be effective against plasma veterans or to kill sergeant (no duel for PK!). I'll test it.
Meks are not IC but simple Characters. Anyway they can snipe. I've had this is mind, this can prove effective since BS has a long range over fire templates.
I don't think its intended that all Mek's are characters. 'Mek boys' cover both meks, and the big mek. So as the 3 meks in the unit are not leading the unit, they probably shouldn't count as characters. But that's for YMDC and your local club to figure out. But I'd say the intent is that only the big mek is a character.
It might just be my luck but I really don't find deffkoptas that useful. Even with twin linked rokkits the low bs just doesn't roll in my favor and once they've shot once they rarely survive the next turn. They just seem like a crappy waste of 45 points for a two wound tl'd rokkit that's not very scary to begone with. Perhaps buzzsaw is the route to go for me. Or convert them to buggies.
I like the idea of having the boss with the koptas, and potentially outflank. I like the skorcha on him as well but, sometimes take an ammo runt+rokkit to compliment kopters (which i always put rokkits on it seems).. Could theoretically just shoot the rokkits and same target as him, or have him detach from them and skorch something else (leaving him as a sitting duck though)
Are you gits finding less attention paid to your nob bikers (if/when you take them) by detaching the warboss?
I used to run 6 bikes + boss at 2k, building for 1850 now so cutting down to 4 I think, not positive... curious if the smaller size will handle the work if the boss is drawing attention elsewhere?
depending on setup could have him outflank with kopters or just scoot along?
Raises the Q for me, need to check BRB... if boss attached to kopters, can they scout move?
I've been running the Boss with Koptas to outflank, and then running the Nob bikers without a boss. This is a really solid double threat. I feel like putting the Boss with the bikers, though incredibly awesome looking and seriously fluffy, just draws way WAAAYYY too much fire. That like..a third of my army points in a single unit.
Also, once the biker boss is in charge range, I'll typically detach him and charge a unit with him solo, after
a.) Charging the unit with the koptas so that they soak the Overwatch, or
b.) send them off to bother a totally different unit, usually a highly shooty one so that they don't get to shoot for the rest of the game.
Well if following the rules is brilliant, then yes, Im brilliant
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, what should I be expecting against Necrons? The new guy in our group has moved through 3 different armies in the course of 3 months, and now is talking/asking all about Necrons, so if the trend continues Ill be facing newcrons for the first time. What should I expect and thoughts on how to deal with them????
KingCracker wrote: Well if following the rules is brilliant, then yes, Im brilliant
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, what should I be expecting against Necrons? The new guy in our group has moved through 3 different armies in the course of 3 months, and now is talking/asking all about Necrons, so if the trend continues Ill be facing newcrons for the first time. What should I expect and thoughts on how to deal with them????
As orks?
Depends on what he brings... if he's bring the AV13 spam, then you need the ADL with TL-Lasers and maybe Lootas (to glance 'em to death). Maybe max squads of Kannons (even tho you're snap firing at flyers)??
Other than that, just pedal to the metal man.
Oh... watch out for the Mind Shackle Scarabs shenanigans... hate those things.
Yeah I think vs crons lootas are the way to go in any situation. Theyre vehicles are pretty god damn tough being av 13 on front and side. If he flyer spams....well... hope you win the ground game. Dakka jets would never be a bad choice I would think.
Standard boys and looted wagons were my favourite things against the older crons. Boys tore them to bits in close combat and the looted wagons cleared whole squads away, the ones that got up did not really matter too much because I would mop them up easily with boys or they would get shot again.
I would think that the same principle still applies, after all they are like weak marines in assault, and the lower save makes them a whole lot more open to different types of guns to be shot at them.
KingCracker wrote: Well if following the rules is brilliant, then yes, Im brilliant
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, what should I be expecting against Necrons? The new guy in our group has moved through 3 different armies in the course of 3 months, and now is talking/asking all about Necrons, so if the trend continues Ill be facing newcrons for the first time. What should I expect and thoughts on how to deal with them????
Well, shoot them until they are all dead. The all dead part is important, since wiped-out units don't get to roll for reanimations protocols. Between tesla (every overwatch hit becomes three hits), Tremor Staves, Mindshackle Scarabs, T4 and semi-decent saves, assaulting them usually isn't worth the trouble. I've always been able to outshoot the new necrons, about anything with AP4 (deff gun, skorcha, supa-shoota) kills them in droves. A side note on MSS, in nob units you might want to actually challenge a MSS character with your pain boy, so no one accidentally takes a klaw to the face. In challenges, only the challenger can be affected by MSS.
Dakkajets are awesome against them, if they spam fliers, just go second and have your dakkajets blow their AV11 croissants out of the sky. Burna bommers can also make whole squads of necrons disappear, but that's bordering list tailoring. Also make sure to bring as least some way to break quantum shielding (kannons, deff rollas, klaw on bike). Once the shield goes down, lootaz and dakkajets can handle the rest.
I've also found either variant of the ADL gun to be very good against the rather short-ranged necron army - they literally have to cross half the table to shoot some gretchin.
KingCracker wrote: Well if following the rules is brilliant, then yes, Im brilliant
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, what should I be expecting against Necrons? The new guy in our group has moved through 3 different armies in the course of 3 months, and now is talking/asking all about Necrons, so if the trend continues Ill be facing newcrons for the first time. What should I expect and thoughts on how to deal with them????
Well, shoot them until they are all dead. The all dead part is important, since wiped-out units don't get to roll for reanimations protocols. Between tesla (every overwatch hit becomes three hits), Tremor Staves, Mindshackle Scarabs, T4 and semi-decent saves, assaulting them usually isn't worth the trouble. I've always been able to outshoot the new necrons, about anything with AP4 (deff gun, skorcha, supa-shoota) kills them in droves. A side note on MSS, in nob units you might want to actually challenge a MSS character with your pain boy, so no one accidentally takes a klaw to the face. In challenges, only the challenger can be affected by MSS.
Dakkajets are awesome against them, if they spam fliers, just go second and have your dakkajets blow their AV11 croissants out of the sky. Burna bommers can also make whole squads of necrons disappear, but that's bordering list tailoring. Also make sure to bring as least some way to break quantum shielding (kannons, deff rollas, klaw on bike). Once the shield goes down, lootaz and dakkajets can handle the rest.
I've also found either variant of the ADL gun to be very good against the rather short-ranged necron army - they literally have to cross half the table to shoot some gretchin.
Well all the replies help, at least I wont be going in completely blind. Its hard telling what he will bring, Im certain he will have at least 1 flyer, as thats been his tried and true method of switching armies, litte of this, little of that, flyer. Im really not TOO scared if he does happen to go flyer spam, as once you hit a certain amount, your just clogging up table and run into having to dodge your own flyers thanks to movement restrictions, And Im guessing MSS take control of a model? I need to read their new dex and get a better idea of what I will run into.
matphat wrote: I've yet to face any Necrons, and I'm betting it can be a royal pain if they spam flyers.
i haven't played against flyer spam but i feel like if anyone can weather it till and blast those tinheads off da planet is da orks. lootas going to ground after held in reserve and walking on shooting croissants out of sky
Big guns are not terribly great vs. necron flyers though because of the S7 guns, wounding on 4s with 4 TL shots that generate 2 extra hits for every 6 rolled? ouch....
Last game vs. crons I won by a single point and only because my runtherder from big gunz was tied in combat on obj with destroyer preventing an anni barge from scoring it (big gunz never tire)...
They went to ground and passed something like 17/20 saves on 3+ and came down to lone brave runtherder... (they did auto wreck one scythe that had locked velocity/direction by standing where he had to land bwa ha ha)
My most regular opponent is a newer necron player, and fields 2 scythes most of the time so like I said, not as much exp vs the spam but.... If you take an ADL 3 squads of lootas some rokkit koptas a dakka jet and enough boys/grots to go to ground inside ADL or in terrain etc... I just don't see the air force being something that is unbeatable by all armies. I think we being lucky enough to have lootas really makes us have a decent chance.
heck my 5 man lootas squad were averaging 2 hull points and 1 of those being a pen per round on the croissants and I wasn't rolling too hot!
If they do flyer spam and you have dakka jets you really want to go 2nd as chances are if you go first your jets will come on and not get to do much just before their flyers come in and shoot em down. Also I would roll on the warlord traits table that gives you a chance to reduce their reserve rolls by 1 to hopefully delay some coming in and you can focus your fire a bit more.
matphat wrote: I've yet to face any Necrons, and I'm betting it can be a royal pain if they spam flyers.
I think if you can weather the initial start of the spam, youll be fine after that. I know from using my fliers, that yes they are very handy and deadly when I have 1 or 2, but I also see where maneuvering starts to become a problem. Hell there are times when I come in, I shoot 1 unit and then have to fly off because I cant just turn around and do it again. So imagine that, but with 5 or 6 or how ever many they can take in spam. Youll be zipping fliers off the board like crazy, and if your close to the edges or behind LOS blocking terrain youre golden, because of the very specific ways flyers have to move
Automatically Appended Next Post:
pepe5454 wrote: If they do flyer spam and you have dakka jets you really want to go 2nd as chances are if you go first your jets will come on and not get to do much just before their flyers come in and shoot em down. Also I would roll on the warlord traits table that gives you a chance to reduce their reserve rolls by 1 to hopefully delay some coming in and you can focus your fire a bit more.
Agreed. I prefer this method when going against other flyers in general. Not to mention, I think there is some pretty nice benefits going second. If you can position yourself so that you take minimal losses, then you can go after the Jets whittle a few squads down, which is obviously good for you
Close combat of any kind (KFF does jack for you in CC)
Either the cybork or the Eavy Armour is helpful in these situations.
Flamers are Ap 5 - eavy armour and cybork works. Cybork still works on the more powerful ones.
CC weapons are mostly not AP 4 or less - Armour works, cybork also works on power weapons.
Ignores cover weapons vary, but are going to get more common. Cybork works on them all, Eavy rmour may work.
Whirlwind Castellan missiles are AP 5 - Eavy rmour and Cybork both work.
I wouldn't necessarily take both. Usually i just take Cybork, but both have a use, and sometimes it can be a game-saver to have both. Plus it's 5 pts. IF you have nothing else that needs a 5 pt upgrade, then why not tank the mek up 4+ saves are easier to make, and you have a 5+ for when that's ruled out.
it really is necessar since in 6ed every man and his dog can pick a Big Mek out of a 30+ man unit of Orks Boyz
Which is why you put the fether in a Battlewagon He lasts longer and his KFF range is greater.
Most everything i get him picked off by is either AP 4 or below anyway. As i said in my quote, both armour and Cybork are useful and have their place, and sometimes it can be a game-saver to have both.
I generally just run the cybork, but that's my choice. It's rare that the 4+ save would have helped me much. If you are only having him be picked off by AP 5 guns, then by all means take the armour as well
If you don't stick the Big Mek in the front of the squad, he's a lot harder to pick off. He has no reason to be up front (or last for that matter, for those who like zooming around to shoot the rear.)
I don't tend to lose my Big meks to shooting (LOS on a 2+ helps).
Ascalam wrote: Which is why you put the fether in a Battlewagon He lasts longer and his KFF range is greater.
Most everything i get him picked off by is either AP 4 or below anyway. As i said in my quote, both armour and Cybork are useful and have their place, and sometimes it can be a game-saver to have both.
I generally just run the cybork, but that's my choice. It's rare that the 4+ save would have helped me much. If you are only having him be picked off by AP 5 guns, then by all means take the armour as well
If you don't stick the Big Mek in the front of the squad, he's a lot harder to pick off. He has no reason to be up front (or last for that matter, for those who like zooming around to shoot the rear.)
I don't tend to lose my Big meks to shooting (LOS on a 2+ helps).
I agree with the above.
Also I've taken to letting the mek accept challenges to ensure the PK nob can attack the squad. So the cybork has kept my mek alive on many occasions. Because if my unit has made it into assaults then the mek has generally done his job and isn't needed as much.
I never run my KFF without a BW anymore. Honestly, I never run foot sloggers anymore.
It comes down to laziness more than anything, because I really don't like moving mobz of boyz around. It also means that the army is more mobile, better protected, HQ is immune to sniping, KFF has more range, and I don't need to worry about placement or fitting everyone in cover for focus fire concerns.
I know I picked a horde army, but sixth really doesn't feel as Green Tide friendly as 5th was.
I'll sadly admit that I'm a mech player now, when I used to think that mech was for sissies and players with too much money. Oh how things change!
matphat wrote: I never run my KFF without a BW anymore. Honestly, I never run foot sloggers anymore.
It comes down to laziness more than anything, because I really don't like moving mobz of boyz around. It also means that the army is more mobile, better protected, HQ is immune to sniping, KFF has more range, and I don't need to worry about placement or fitting everyone in cover for focus fire concerns.
I know I picked a horde army, but sixth really doesn't feel as Green Tide friendly as 5th was.
I'll sadly admit that I'm a mech player now, when I used to think that mech was for sissies and players with too much money. Oh how things change!
matphat wrote: I never run my KFF without a BW anymore. Honestly, I never run foot sloggers anymore.
It comes down to laziness more than anything, because I really don't like moving mobz of boyz around. It also means that the army is more mobile, better protected, HQ is immune to sniping, KFF has more range, and I don't need to worry about placement or fitting everyone in cover for focus fire concerns.
I know I picked a horde army, but sixth really doesn't feel as Green Tide friendly as 5th was.
I'll sadly admit that I'm a mech player now, when I used to think that mech was for sissies and players with too much money. Oh how things change!
I feel the same way. I have alwasy leaned towards mech versus the green tide anyways. I will run maybe 1 30 man shoota unit just to sit on a home objective. My experience is more people are playing gunlines and have faster moving units has helped greatly against that. I have even been using some of the Imperial Armour 8 forgeworld rules and have added a mekboy junka to the mix, that now gives me a 4th defrolla.
I did a 1k game earlier and I have to say the star of the match were my deffkoptas.
I took 2 units of 2 rokkitkoptas, one buzz saw in each and the 12" redeploy works great for multiple reasons.
Now the Jink rule states that the unit must have moved in order to get the cover save.
Earlier in the thread I talked about the tactical advantages of going second, especially for units w/ scout/infiltrate.
I used the 12" scout redeploy to put them into area terrain. In 5th it would have forced dangerous terrain tests, but in 6th it does not due to the deliberate wording of the rule. Redeploying is not moving, so that means nothing like turbo boosting shenanigans, but since they are not actually moving they don't have to take dangerous terrain until they move into, out of, or through the terrain. Since I'm not moving, I don't get Jink. This is why I put them into the cover
The koptas went 12" into terrain, I had went second and I was able to shut down a small area of the board as a vehicle trap. My opponent needed to move his predator forwards in order to deny bonuses to night fighting for his targets, and then one 2 man squad took out a predator on turn one. First blood, and took out some serious anti horde firepower that he had.
I know this tactic will not always work, but what it does do is gives you slightly more control of the board.
It's like the rushing strategy in counter strike. U don't rush to get kills, you rush to take that area away from the enemy letting your team move up with the bomb (or the meganobz) unopposed. It is almost a win-win. If they move up they die, if they don't, you have successfully "taken" that ground.
I'm gonna try Biker boss with a unit of 2 deff koptas and another unit of 3-4 deffkoptas with 1 buzzsaw this weekend outflanking and attempting to pop some transports. Against Armor 10 I'm hoping mass twin linked Big Shoota fire will work for me, if not I'll use the PK on the boss or a buzz saw or two in the other unit. Can you pop a Chimera or Rhino in the shooting phase and then charge it's remaining occupants?
Hey guys, I'm thinking about using some Orks as allies for my Imperial Guard army.
I have a few Ork units I have been trying to make into an army, but I haven't played Orks ever before, so I was thinking if I start playing them as allies, I will get more motivation for painting them and finishing the army at some point.
So far I have a converted rokkit wartrakk(painted), a 12 strong slugga squad w. PK Nob (nicely painted) and a trukk (ram, paintjob, boarding plank), an uassembled BW with extra sprue and all the Ork models from AoBR (where the sluggas come from). I also have 20 unassembled boyz and a box of metal tankbustas (5), a painboy and a KFF Big Mek.
I really want to keep the Orks in a Kult of Speed theme, with deffkoptas, buggies/trakks, a looted wagon, and perhaps with a bommer of some sort later on. All the infantry should either be mounted in trukks or battlewagons to fit the theme.
Initially I was thinking about something along the lines of:
Allies of convenience
DA BLITZA BOYS!
HQ Warboss Blitza
Power klaw
Shoota
Stikkbombz
Cybork body
Bosspole
Dedicated transport
'Ol Betty
Battlewagon
Deff rolla
Red paint job
Grot riggers
Armour plates
Big shoota
Fast attack
Wartrakk
Twin-linked rokkit launcher
In total 647pts.
I would field these guys together with (roughly) a plasma CCS in chimera, 2x Meltavets in chimeras, a 25 man assault infantry platoon (Commisar, power swords, flamers), a bane wolf and 2x HF scout sentinels.to match the theme of a mechanized assault army. The list is 1600 points in total with lots of mobile scoring units.
The vets pop tanks and transports, and the Orks deal with the contents. The CCS+Bane Wolf deal with MC's or heavy infantry. The sentinels do backfield disruption and the platoon tie down anything that try to slip past or capture, and otherwise capture and draw fire itself.
The meta i play in is quite relaxed army wise and nobody play power lists or spam flyers. I might encounter a single enemy flyer at 1600 points, but otherwise we try to field lists that are take all comers. We like to play painted and fully WYSIWYG, and we use an army selection system that prevents the armies from becoming too spammy or powerful.
Thanks Dr. but I've closed the OP to updates unless a new FAQ drops. I'm considering creating an article with the information that has accrued, if someone wants to help round it all up.
Anyone care to help me weigh pros and cons of using flash gitz in 6th edition? I'm planning on making some to take for a spin, and i've made a thread for discussing the subject here-http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/493942.page
You still get a close combat expert (with all attached costs) with a gun instead of a close combat weapon. The very foundation of their design is flawed, nothing in 6th changed that.
Jidmah wrote: You still get a close combat expert (with all attached costs) with a gun instead of a close combat weapon. The very foundation of their design is flawed, nothing in 6th changed that.
It's kinda why Noise Marines aren't used that much either. They basically have a close combat profile (WS4, S4, T4, I5, grenades and bolt pistols) and some specialist ranged weapons, which makes them very expensive.
Jidmah wrote: You still get a close combat expert (with all attached costs) with a gun instead of a close combat weapon. The very foundation of their design is flawed, nothing in 6th changed that.
Yup, now like Ive said for years now, if they would of made a profile that reflected a Nob, that focused on shooting instead of fighting, then they would be immensely better for the points. If they had say 2 shots standard and either BS3 or TL even, THEN suddenly the points are much better. Again, hope for it to be righted in the next dex, and I say it just might, since 6th is a shooters edition, where as 5th was a punchers edition.....or 4+ everything edition. Either way
I'm building a dark eldar army, so I can point out stuff you can look for. The flyer is probably a razorwing jet fighter, which can pump out 4 strength 6 ap 5 large templates. Since he will be fielding lots of AV 10, brings lots of things that can kill it. Knocking out his transports will be the key to winning, as his DE are squishy and will die in droves to vehicle explosions. His hellions won't be too much of an issue; they strike first, but can't really do too much damage unless there are tons of them.
Also, if he has Trueborn, he'll most likely be running some sort of lances on them; focus on killing these first; ravagers are also nasty, so kill them ASAP. Incubi can be nasty in CC, so try to avoid it unless you know you can kill them. If you can kill off his transports, you can easily clean up the rest. So I'd probably bring lots of Lootas, Big shootas, Kannons, and possibly Deffkoptas. Deffrollas are nice, but you probably won't use them too much, as they need to be close and a smart DE player won't let you get near him.
1. Razorwing, can it fire 4 blasts per turn? all on same target?
2. I figure anything with a dark lance gets shot at and killed asap. my 3 squads of 5 lootas should drop 1-3 transports when I finally volley. kannons another.
3. as far for his melee prowess goes.. anything he will bring that is an AP2 or ap3 weapon? Does he have any AP2 that strike at at init. like warscythes?
4. Trueborns hm. what other type of guns? do they have 4+ saves or? I assume T3? No bonuses to cover right?
5. What makes incubi tought in melee? What kind of weapons/saves/Toughness do they have? Typically I send my MANZ after things like power sword toting death company, and biker nobz torwards things that hit at S8 with fists/hammers. Can I just swam them with boys?
I had dropped the 2 rollas off my list and added a 4th nob biker, dropped a few other upgrades here and there and 1 deffkopta (down to a lone rokkit kopta) and added 5 more lootas (making 5 x 3) from my normal 1850 list
Planned on shooting my small arms at what falls out of transports, or his quick moving jet bike things (not sure what they are called... like dudes riding a surfboard, on a small flyer base... bout 10-20 deep) not sure what these are or what role they fulfill.
Sorry for all the Q's... Figure it shouldn't be TOO tough.. don't let him lance my meganobz down etc
The razorwing only has 4 blasts total. Incubi are AP2, and strength 4. While they will remove the save on your MANZ, you should wipe them when you strike, as they only have a 3+ save and are T3, so you'll be able to instadeath them. You could also shoot them. Trueborns will 90% of the time use some sort of lance. Shoot them first, same with Ravagers. Shoot Lelith also, as you do not want anything to be in CC with her (has a 3+ invun save in CC.) Granted, she doesn't have a very high strength, but she can get crazy amounts of attacks and reduces your attack by one in CC, plus she ignores armor saves. Almost all DE have T3, so they will die fast.
How do people run nobz in battlewagons? Do they totally kit them out, or do they run them fairly cheap? I was looking at taking a squad, and was thinking of running one of these two:
Deathstar Nobz: 10x Nobz, 3x Powerklaws, Painboy, all Cyborks, Waagh! banner, Bosspole, 4x Big Choppas = 395 pts
Cheap Nobz: 10x Nobz, 'Heavy armor, 5x Big Choppas, Waagh! Banner, BP = 295 pts
What are your thoughts on these squads? I feel the Deathstar Nobz would perform significantly better.
The last time I ran them I had 8-9 with a pain boy, cybork, PK, BC and waagh banner. If I have the points I'll try to fit a combi scorcha and boss pole. But I also run my KFF Big Mek so if they ride together they'll have a boss pole and walking cover. I try to keep them cheaper so as not to deathstar. Saving those points allow another buggy or kopta...all in how you build your list right?
In 6th, due to lack of Shenanigans and Nobz no longer being a squad of Characters, there's really no point in kitting them out- use them like 'arder than normal Boyz- maybe add a PK in with your 'cheapo' setup (or just leave them with the Big Choppas- that actually ought to be fine) and smash them into stuff without expecting them to survive as long as they used to. Kit out the battlewagon decently as well, too.
If you don't kit them out, why take them in first place? Painboy, Waagh! Banner and the second PK is what makes them better than boyz, if you don't want that, you shouldn't take them.
You will be hard pressed to fit in four battlewagons below 2000, at which point I have run much better with just opening op the second FOC and getting another battlewagon as heavy support option (filled with boyz, burnaz, tank bustaz or lootaz). Below 2000 I prefer taking biker nobz over battlewagon nobz, as they are more mobile and harder to remove, especially with battlewagons around to provide LoS blocking.
That was the main idea for my list. Not sure how well it would perform, but I think it would be fun to play. Main question was to see how people ran thier nobz in battlewagons, as I wasn't sure how to kit mine out.
I use meganobs, so I can't really say too much about the regular kind.
I would take the banner, painboy and cyborks though and probably a bosspole if they aren't being lead by an IC.
At 20 points each they are more than three times the cost of a boy, so running them as tougher boys simply isn't going to cut it. Take advantage of their extra gear.
Incidentally, my 1.5k list is two mobs of meganobs and two mobs of lootas all in wagons.
I played against Nids last night and had a x5 MANz mob in a typical gunwagon. Jeeze they fething wreck face in 6th They got out, murdered a decent size brood of spawned gants, then were assaulted by the nearby Tervigon, and promptly torn to shreds, then went and charged a 2nd tervigon and murdered that one as well. If the game were to continue, they would of surely butchered the gant brood near the 2nd tervigon. Granted they were taking wounds easily from those Tervigons, but they still just out classed the beasts. Cant wait to give this same unit a go at some MEQs, those will be far more juicy IMO, I just have this hatred for Space Marines, I enjoy watching them squirm
But I used my 1850 AV10 spam against the Nid player last night, and it was a great match, we kicked each others asses and there were units on every inch of the table it seemed like. We played the way Reecius and his crew do with using 2 missions at the same time. My buddy definitely got the better of me on special objectives, he got Slay the Warlord, line breaker, first blood and a couple objectives, but I tied him by killing off a bunch of units and hold more higher point objectives. We had to call it at the end of turn 4, but we were both sitting on 15 victory points and both of us had a ton of units left, so if we had the time to continue those points would of been WAY higher.
Very fun match, and even against Nids, my AV10 spam seems to work rather nicely, I cant drive by PK anything, but the buggies just work SOooooooooooo nicely. I had only 6 this time, but they hauled ass as fast as possible, and after turning sideways and using terrain, blocked off the entire center of the board. And against spawned gants, I didnt have to worry too much about glances as they just didnt have the shots to really do much damage. Its was sweet
ive thought about the non-biker Nobz a few times but honestly i dont see a use for them unless im dealing with stuff that tends to squash bikers, but bikers are still the best thing for it due to cheap masses of Str6 Bigchoppas or PKs (cheap as in not 1 per 30 boyz lol)
With 35pts you can get a trukk to move 11 + 1 nob squad into position fairly easy, but the problem is after they do their thing theyre stranded unless your opponent stupidly cornered himself. Kind of the same issue with MANz but atleast MANz have insane survivability, nobz dont.
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Now for a question of my own. Isnt there some rule somewhere where orks can loot any vehicle, use its weapons, but only have Ork BS rather than normal? Or is this forcing us to take an ally now to do this? I ask because i feel like our vehicles have no punch aside from the MANz inside due to the pathetic rear armor (and lot of my friends love the deepstrike/droppod crap)
The lootas KINDDA had a rule like that in 3rd edition. You could build your lootas in a certain way with looted weapons. And obviously the Looted Wagon is similar in that vain.
I basically say "Nobz what? Sorry, cant hear you over how much ass my MANz are kicking right now....Ill get back to you"
My last 2 games were oddly enough, against 2 different Nids armies. The first one, I had a x4 MANz missile, and they killed 2 tervigons, and 2 broods the Tervigons poohed out, THEN went and captured an objective, then shot down 2 fleeing genestealers while waiting. My second game against Nids, I had a MegaBoss with x5 MANz in a BW w/deff rolla. The wagon deffrolled a good sized brood of gants, killing a bunch, but stayed, and a tervigon at the same time, and that guy failed and fell back. Then the Manz+MegaBoss charged the gants, wiped them out. They were then charged by the Tervigon, and it was murdered. They then took an objective and helped shoot down a HUGE mob of devourer gants, while letting the BW mow things down with its Bigshootas.
MANz are just tooo good to pass up I think, now that their 2+ save actually means something and some random power weapon cant cut them down. Im even considering taking Mad Dok somewhere in my armies just to give them cheap cybork
Vineheart01 wrote: ive thought about the non-biker Nobz a few times but honestly i dont see a use for them unless im dealing with stuff that tends to squash bikers, but bikers are still the best thing for it due to cheap masses of Str6 Bigchoppas or PKs (cheap as in not 1 per 30 boyz lol)
With 35pts you can get a trukk to move 11 + 1 nob squad into position fairly easy, but the problem is after they do their thing theyre stranded unless your opponent stupidly cornered himself. Kind of the same issue with MANz but atleast MANz have insane survivability, nobz dont.
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Now for a question of my own. Isnt there some rule somewhere where orks can loot any vehicle, use its weapons, but only have Ork BS rather than normal? Or is this forcing us to take an ally now to do this? I ask because i feel like our vehicles have no punch aside from the MANz inside due to the pathetic rear armor (and lot of my friends love the deepstrike/droppod crap)
NO that was in the 3ed codex in the 4ed codex we got Looted Wagons " the most over priced AV 11 vehicle in the game that dose not work all the time!! '' If it was 70pts it would be ok but 105pts+ for an open top rhino that needs LOS Basilisk, Griffon and many other siege tanks have AV 12 and don't need LOS
MANz are just tooo good to pass up I think, now that their 2+ save actually means something and some random power weapon cant cut them down. Im even considering taking Mad Dok somewhere in my armies just to give them cheap cybork
I cooked up a crazy deathstar of a squad a few days ago, I want to try it but I wouldnt use it in anything less than 2k or a team game.
Warboss- Mega armor, AS, BP, Cybork,
Mad Dok Grotsnik
8x Manz,- all cybork
BW-RPJ, Deffrolla, Bigshoota
Comes out to like 770 points I think, or 865 if you take ghazz instead of a megaboss. All the 2W 2+ saves with FNP. Ded stompy if you ask me.
Yeah I know it has some flaws, and big ones. I havnt used it yet (will probably be some time until I do) but luckily I only play vs friends and im the only one who owns something like a demo cannon.
virx67 wrote: What would you do against things like Vindicators? One shot, and you'd potentially lose 75% of your squad.
Thats really the problem with most deathstars, their counter hurts extra bad. Besides, youre talking about a Vindicator, those things give everything a middle finger AND its a cautionary tale why you shouldnt run really pricey deathstars
I would say that if you have a big ass deathstar, killing vindicators is the top of your target priority. Most people only bring two, and it's really easy to get a side shot on them. They're not really so hard to kill. It's tougher now that you can't suppress them, but really that's it.
Yea I can agree with that. IF I were going to run a deathstar, which again, not a big fan of advocating that, Id run some old school suicide koptas to take things like that out pronto.
Or, if you're going to be using a Deathstar for the smashy anyways, have some Tankbustas steal a couple of Trukkaboy rides. Or give them a couple of cheap battlewagons. And blow up EVERYTHING.
That's the awesome part about biker nobz - they are a counter to vindicators all by themselves. Just cross the table and force your opponent to chose between an attempt at getting past 4+ cover or keeping the vindicator around for a second shot. It's awesome when they scatter onto themselves, too.
Yea i can tell my opponents do NOT like the idea of biker nobz with a few PKs charging at something valuable. I snuck a MANz missile (only 3 + megaboss, but thats plenty) because i sent 4 Nobz with Bigchoppa and 1 PK charging down the other side at his transports. Incidentally, he chose to try and deal with the bikes. The MANz missile hit its target, byebye artillery muhahaha lol and the 4+ save was enough to let atleast one BC and the PK survive so i could take out a transport too.
Yea Im plannin on getting more AOBR koptas so I can make bikes and give them a go. I used to not be a fan of bikes, coming into 6th as I still ran a mostly foot based army. Now though, Ive been running as fast as I can in vehicles, so bikes seem like a no brainer to me. Problem is though, figuring out what to take in smaller games. Because Ill be honest, I prefer the MegaBoss over the BikerBoss for survivability. BUT the BikerBoss can take a unit of Nob Bikers as a troop, or use the Boss as whats his name that suddenly exscapes me lol, and have bikers as troops. Though again I prefer MANz over Nobz because of cost and again, survivability.
Obviously in bigger games I wont care because the points will be there for both.
Yes, that is noticeable, specially when charging into combat by himself or taking a Vindicator shot to his chest. BUT, the MegaBoss has 2+, during combat, the only things he hsa to worry about, go at the same initiative step as he does. Mutual Assured Destruction and all that. I just get nervous that WHEN something wounds a bikerboss I lose wounds 50% of the time.
You know, you can take Nob Bikers as troops with a MegaBoss, or Meganob Troops with a Bikerboss. What you kit the Nobz out with (except Snazzgunz... gr.) doesn't matter for "The Big Boss".
Yea i did that one game for the lulz i had 140pts left over and decided to get 3 meganobz with TL shootas just sit at an objective. They never even got scared till a Dreadknight tried to charge at them, but lucky loota fire saved that one lol
edit: seeing as how dakkajets get crazy strong during a waagh, has anyone thought about weirdboyz and 3 dakkajets?
i recently got my hands on a nice ebay deal for 3 dakkajets, when i get them in i outta proxy a weirdboy and try it out. I think if i stick him in a BW loaded with shootas he outta be relatively safe for the most part. Not sure what else i would bring aside from a crapton of boyz. Throw in a bikerboss with some nob bikers i guess for tough/high AV popping since dakkajets have low str/ap.
I playtested dual warpheads + dakkajets a lot when 6th came out. The sad truth is, that the warphead (or weird boy) is a terrible model when looked at from a competitive viewpoint. To actually get the right power at the right time is very unlikely, including getting a Waagh! for your dakkajets. You really do get a lot more useless powers than you'd think. Even that autohitting melta of orky doom isn't that awesome anymore when your only valid targets are a TH/SS terminator or a gaunt.
I had a lot more games where the two warpheads were all but useless than games where they did at least as little as cause their 85 points worth of damage - not taking into account all those shoota boyz getting killed by 'ere we go and 'eadbanger.
If you want to have a fun game with wacky models, go Warpheads. If you care about winning a game, leave them at home and bring a Warboss, KFF or SAG instead.
When 6ed came out. The sad truth is that the warphead (or weird boy) went from fun to terrible. My friend used to run a kommando boyz army.
45 kommandos with 3 nobz with PK's and 6 burnas
2 warphead
9 kannon
100 boyz with 5 nobz with PK's for 1750pt.
It had a crazy chance of waaaaaaagh something like 66.67% on turn 1 and 100% every turn after that since you can use the army waaaaaaagh when needed. This dose not work any more thanks to 2D6 charge and no fleet and you can't charge on turn 1 if you can or from reserve on the turn they arrived. which are all good changes to Skyhammer 1ed
All i can hope is that if we get a new ork codex they rework da Waaaagh!
I mean, cmon theyre screaming their warcall at the top of their lungs and they dont get stronger, faster, or ignore getting shot at (fnp)? At the least let us charge the same turn we ran
MANz are just tooo good to pass up I think, now that their 2+ save actually means something and some random power weapon cant cut them down. Im even considering taking Mad Dok somewhere in my armies just to give them cheap cybork
I cooked up a crazy deathstar of a squad a few days ago, I want to try it but I wouldnt use it in anything less than 2k or a team game.
Warboss- Mega armor, AS, BP, Cybork,
Mad Dok Grotsnik
8x Manz,- all cybork
BW-RPJ, Deffrolla, Bigshoota
Comes out to like 770 points I think, or 865 if you take ghazz instead of a megaboss. All the 2W 2+ saves with FNP. Ded stompy if you ask me.
I actually used a deathstar almost exactly like this a little over a week ago, I had 5 meganobz with cyborks, mad dok, and ghazzy in a bw and was facing a gk list that had 60 strike squad guys! I tabled him by turn 4 or 5 thanks to ghazzy eating up about 15 guys or so and the mega nobz eating up about 20 or more! I think I only lost like one nob and and one or two others took a wound in return and that was with pretty much everything shooting at my deathstar for 2 or 3 turns, it was beautiful
Haaaa!! Grey Knights ... by turn 3 I had nothing left on the table ... between their psicannon, 2 teleporting dreadknights (the big terminator things) and ALL psychers, it was total destruction. It took them only 45 minutes to wipe me. Turn 1 they fried the lootas and goblins behind the Aegis Defense line and immobilized one BW. My 2 dakkajets were as easily destroyed, one by a megapowerful twin-linked lascannon razorback.
I tried the same list against Necrons (which were beaten earlier in no time by IG) and they did "almost" the same thing, but it took a little longer. It was almost a draw, but he won. I cannot destroy his AV13 vehicles ... and what about those damn HQ removing abilities from my orks.
I was so pissed off. I was almost willing to sell my orks after this defeat !!! But I've been beaten by the 2 best armies out there. I don't know why GW does codex that are that much powerful.
Anyway, it's my fault. I did not have a competitive list and I wanted to try stuff which failed.
The problem is that I like using weird stuff and different armies, I don't like playing the same army day after day,
How do you fight this Grey Knight army:
2 TL Lascannon Razorbacks
2 Dread Knights
20 Marines with Psicannons.
1 HQ that must be alone (I don't know his name, but he did nothing)
Everyone was a psycher.
For me, Kommandos are useless (Snikrot doesn't serve anymore).
Mobs of 30 orks are dead,
Dakkajets get shot down too easily.
I'm kind of brain-dead when thinking about my orks.
Automatically Appended Next Post: About the deathstars, I tried using this but it failed. Meganobz cannot fight against the ??? (the dark eldars with AP2 melee weapons), I cannot remember their names.
Their dark lances destroyed my 2 BW on turn 1.
Their venoms and the razorwing destroyed by 30 boyz (in 3 turns, but they did it).
Is it me or all orks are that unlucky ?
The game finished as a draw, nobody took the relic. At least my warboss saved the day. By himself he killed a talos pain engine, the DEHQ with his Invul 2+ shield, and 2 squads of DE troops. And the other star of the game was the immobilized Trukk of the meganobz (now empty) which prevented some of his troops to run toward the relic.
Automatically Appended Next Post: About the deathstars, I tried using this but it failed. Meganobz cannot fight against the ??? (the dark eldars with AP2 melee weapons), I cannot remember their names.
Their dark lances destroyed my 2 BW on turn 1.
Their venoms and the razorwing destroyed by 30 boyz (in 3 turns, but they did it).
Is it me or all orks are that unlucky ?
The game finished as a draw, nobody took the relic. At least my warboss saved the day. By himself he killed a talos pain engine, the DEHQ with his Invul 2+ shield, and 2 squads of DE troops. And the other star of the game was the immobilized Trukk of the meganobz (now empty) which prevented some of his troops to run toward the relic.
Shooty DE can be rough they are really what got me thinking about being able to split my fire as much as possible. More loota squads with smaller numbers gretchin on a quad gun and ADL for lootas. Lots of boys with big shootas, dakkajets for FA some big guns and some mega nobs (if taking BW the meganobs can free up a HS slot for big guns although a truk is probably better if you have the HS slots). Really I try to pop as many transports a turn as possible doing that can really hurt your opponent.
valminder wrote: Haaaa!! Grey Knights ... by turn 3 I had nothing left on the table ... between their psicannon, 2 teleporting dreadknights (the big terminator things) and ALL psychers, it was total destruction. It took them only 45 minutes to wipe me. Turn 1 they fried the lootas and goblins behind the Aegis Defense line and immobilized one BW. My 2 dakkajets were as easily destroyed, one by a megapowerful twin-linked lascannon razorback.
I tried the same list against Necrons (which were beaten earlier in no time by IG) and they did "almost" the same thing, but it took a little longer. It was almost a draw, but he won. I cannot destroy his AV13 vehicles ... and what about those damn HQ removing abilities from my orks.
I was so pissed off. I was almost willing to sell my orks after this defeat !!! But I've been beaten by the 2 best armies out there. I don't know why GW does codex that are that much powerful.
Anyway, it's my fault. I did not have a competitive list and I wanted to try stuff which failed. The problem is that I like using weird stuff and different armies, I don't like playing the same army day after day,
How do you fight this Grey Knight army: 2 TL Lascannon Razorbacks 2 Dread Knights 20 Marines with Psicannons. 1 HQ that must be alone (I don't know his name, but he did nothing) Everyone was a psycher.
For me, Kommandos are useless (Snikrot doesn't serve anymore). Mobs of 30 orks are dead, Dakkajets get shot down too easily.
I'm kind of brain-dead when thinking about my orks.
Automatically Appended Next Post: About the deathstars, I tried using this but it failed. Meganobz cannot fight against the ??? (the dark eldars with AP2 melee weapons), I cannot remember their names.
Their dark lances destroyed my 2 BW on turn 1.
Their venoms and the razorwing destroyed by 30 boyz (in 3 turns, but they did it).
Is it me or all orks are that unlucky ?
The game finished as a draw, nobody took the relic. At least my warboss saved the day. By himself he killed a talos pain engine, the DEHQ with his Invul 2+ shield, and 2 squads of DE troops. And the other star of the game was the immobilized Trukk of the meganobz (now empty) which prevented some of his troops to run toward the relic.
That sounds pretty brutal... I don't play much, but my friends and I like to throw idea's for lists around. If you are having issues with psykers, ally with Eldar, take a Farseer with Runes of warding, and a squad of five Rangers for 165 pts. This gives you some poison/sniper weaponry, as well as some great anti-psyker defense. Granted, if you don't like allies, you probably wouldn't want them, but they give you some ranged monstrous creature hunting abilities, sniping abilities, great psychic powers, and great psychic defense for a fairly low cost.
So I was finishing building my first mob of warbikers last night when I had a sudden, and very worrying, epiphany. My store has several Daemon players, and all of them take tons of flamers.
What on earth is a predominately ork biker army going to do against a unit that is literally tailor made to kill them? i've got no cover, no armor, no way to outrun them, and probably wont have the numbers to take the hits either.
Other than taking a mob of gretchin or boys to take the initial hit, I'm not really sure what I can do other than refuse to play daemons or tailor my list, two options I REALLY dont want to consider.
Here's an idea of what I was planning on building towards at a 1,000pts. The general core of this list would be expanded for larger games, with lootas, dakkajets, more bikers, and maybe a mob of biker nobs and a biker boss.
valminder wrote: Haaaa!! Grey Knights ... by turn 3 I had nothing left on the table ...
Its not much of a comfort, but you are not alone.
This is what I had left on the table by turn three in the last tourney I played... the dice shows how many wounds the boss had taken. So one single wound warboss... -.-
None of you should feel bad about losing to GK. It's a top tier army with massive horde killing potential vs. a 4th Ed. Codex. Orks aren't weak, but they certainly have weaknesses. GK can exploit them.
On the other hand, I played BA this last weekend and really stomped them flat.
with 7 points to spare why didnt you add another big shoota to one battlewagon? or 'eavy armor for the big mek... ahh heck those 5 points could help out
Yea I find Wartrakks to be too costly for what you get out of them. Thats the price of another DAKKAjet, and Id easily put my money on the DAKKAjet to have more kill potential
2 10 man Tacs split
1 Assault /w warlord character
2 Devastators
2 Drop pods
3 Baals outflanking
1 LR
I bring Wartrakks for a number of reasons, One, I like my scratch built models and love seeing them on the field. Two, I like not having to roll leadership, Three, I like area denial with the large amount of space that a squad of three can take up, and lastly, I always take Wartrakk because my models are trakked, and I like the WYSIWYG aspect of it, and it's never failed to save my butt. I tend to sit my trakks in terrain for a round some times.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
KingCracker wrote: Yea I find Wartrakks to be too costly for what you get out of them. Thats the price of another DAKKAjet, and Id easily put my money on the DAKKAjet to have more kill potential
I don't disagree with this, I actually had another list that was all Jets and no Trakks, but to be honest, I scrapped it. I like the variety, and like having multiple type of threats on the board, and lastly, like I said, I absolutely love my scratch built Trakks. Plus, it's two extra models. I like having MOAR models on the board. AV10 SPAM FTW!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
phatonic wrote: with 7 points to spare why didnt you add another big shoota to one battlewagon? or 'eavy armor for the big mek... ahh heck those 5 points could help out
Actually, the list I posted was the original. I DID catch that last second, and I did throw another Big Shoota on the lead wagon. =)
I don't disagree with this, I actually had another list that was all Jets and no Trakks, but to be honest, I scrapped it. I like the variety, and like having multiple type of threats on the board, and lastly, like I said, I absolutely love my scratch built Trakks. Plus, it's two extra models. I like having MOAR models on the board. AV10 SPAM FTW!
Correct me if I'm wrong but you can't use Warbuggies as denial units can you? Maybe it's different because they are squadrons? I dunno.
I don't disagree with this, I actually had another list that was all Jets and no Trakks, but to be honest, I scrapped it. I like the variety, and like having multiple type of threats on the board, and lastly, like I said, I absolutely love my scratch built Trakks. Plus, it's two extra models. I like having MOAR models on the board. AV10 SPAM FTW!
Correct me if I'm wrong but you can't use Warbuggies as denial units can you? Maybe it's different because they are squadrons? I dunno.
Well, if it takes up space, then it is denying area. If it is a squadron of large, spread out models, then it is taking up a lot of space. So it is area denial. It isn't like a special rule your have to have.
Right guys for christmass i got a certain amount of cash, so i tought spending some of it on orks and would ask you guys what would be the best way of growing my army?
So imma start by writing up what i got so far and i would love your input what i should get to grow my army
HQ: Weirdboy
Warboss on foot for either 'eavy armor or mega armor
Big mek with Kustom force field.
Troop: 10 gretchin with runthred
100 boyz (shoota/slugga&choppa) allot of proxies
(includes nobz with bosspole&powerklaw)
Ellite: 15 nobz (various weaponary with waagh banner n stuff)
3 Meganobz with kombi skorchas
20 lootas
10 burna boyz
Heavy Suport: 2 looted wagons with big shootas, boom gun, ramshackle
(also avaible to make for transport use)
1 Battlewagon made for transport (big shootas and deff rollah)
3 killa kanz with magnitized weapons
5 flash gitz
Fast attack: Boss zagstruk (oddly enough not any stormboyz yet!)
2 dakkajets with additional supa shoota
3 deffkoptas TL rokkits.
9 warbikers (some converted to nob bikers but proxy proxy)
And at last two normal trukks
So heres my list of what i got so far... as you might allready know i do mostly footslogg here but any pointers would be great! Merry christmass aswell!
Reading through a lot of this and I didn't really find an answer to a question I had been looking for.
Are trukk boys just a horrible idea now?
I have yet to get a game in with my orks for 6th but I see a lot of boys on foot. And the one thing I enjoyed about my orks was the fast troop choice of boys in trukks.
Etched In Pride wrote: Reading through a lot of this and I didn't really find an answer to a question I had been looking for.
Are trukk boys just a horrible idea now?
I have yet to get a game in with my orks for 6th but I see a lot of boys on foot. And the one thing I enjoyed about my orks was the fast troop choice of boys in trukks.
I believe Kingcracker uses a trukk rush style with lots of buggies and other av10 vehicles. Might want to search for his posts.
phatonic wrote: Right guys for christmass i got a certain amount of cash, so i tought spending some of it on orks and would ask you guys what would be the best way of growing my army?
So imma start by writing up what i got so far and i would love your input what i should get to grow my army
I may be in a bit of a minority here, but Id probably start picking up more battle wagons. Ive had great success with them in 6th. Bikers are also really fun.
So far in 6th, Ive only lost 1 battlewagon and that was due to a SPOD of devourer gants dropping in behind it and frigging glancing the piss out of it. All my other games, its been a friggin bunker on wheels
They go from bunker on wheels to tin can with attached opening key, for me... I still run them, but i lose them to CC far more often than to shooting.
Granted you can shoot the fethers as they assault with an embarked unit, but BW are paper in CC, because of that cruddy rear armour and the fact glances can kill one fast these days.
They go from bunker on wheels to tin can with attached opening key, for me... I still run them, but i lose them to CC far more often than to shooting.
Granted you can shoot the fethers as they assault with an embarked unit, but BW are paper in CC, because of that cruddy rear armour and the fact glances can kill one fast these days.
I never let the, get close enough to CC. 12 inches a round is enough to stop almost any assult if you are careful.
They go from bunker on wheels to tin can with attached opening key, for me... I still run them, but i lose them to CC far more often than to shooting.
Granted you can shoot the fethers as they assault with an embarked unit, but BW are paper in CC, because of that cruddy rear armour and the fact glances can kill one fast these days.
I never let the, get close enough to CC. 12 inches a round is enough to stop almost any assult if you are careful.
Fair enough,
My local meta is stuffed with fast assault stuff though. Screamers of Tzeentch, Assault marines, Beastmasters, My wife's obscenely lucky Shining Spears...
Plus i favor Deffrolla wagons. If i trash a vehicle it's usually near other vehicles with troops in, as i prefer to be up in my enemy's face Losing wagons is an occupational hazard.
Dakkawagons at range can play keep-away rather better.
I also lose a fair few to Haywyches in venoms. Three venoms zoom up close to a BW. I back away 12 '', while blowing up a venom and killing its crew (maybe two on a good day). They move up 6, drop troops who then move up 6. Then they throw an emp, then charge. BW goes foosh, especially if they have more than one venom left. If i flat out the wagon i don't get to shoot, and odds are they'll reach me anyway.. I'm not complaining, as its a tactic my DE like too
A venom with 5 haywyches doesn't cost much, and when coupled with the dirty good rolling my wife averages at they can be pretty hard to kill before they drops suicide bombers.
Depends on what you might be facing. If its every race, no idea lol i only play against 3 races on average sometimes a 4th, and one is tailored to exploit an issue orks have.
Personally, bikers, Yea what few counters them counters them hardcore but theyre the best overall good model we got. Aside from a LOT of fire hoping for bad rolls, not much straight up shuts them down.
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My issue with orks in 6th (granted i started playing right after 6th hit so idont know 5th) is it feels like the 2 weaknesses orks have are so massive we cant get around it. One is IG, which i tend to face often.
Armor walls.
That range is rediculous as well as good aim and punch power. Even if i steal initiative i still lose roughly half my army before i get there. Dakkajets get owned by his quads and whatever that other good AA weapon was they got, armor gets owned by leman russes, bikes get owned by sheer volumn of large blast templates and other fire. Since Kommandos suck donkeydick, orks have no way to at least force them to turn around for a turn or two letting me get up there.
The other is lack of a monstrous creature. Personally i feel this is a big letdown because of the sheer durability they tend to have, we lack except Ghazzy but hes too slow once his trukk goes boom. MEQs, Nids, and necrons all have something that is very durable, packs a punch, and is either mobile on its own or has rules you can buy/use to get it around. We have slow and purposeful, which is a kick in the dick.
So far i play against Blood Angels, Space Marines, IG, Nids, and Necrons and on the rare occation a dark eldar biker force. That ones funny, biker against biker usually.
IG is the only one i cannot win no matter what i bring. That wall is unreachable. I know if i can get there i will decimate it, but i cant get there.
Vineheart01 wrote: Depends on what you might be facing. If its every race, no idea lol i only play against 3 races on average sometimes a 4th, and one is tailored to exploit an issue orks have.
Personally, bikers, Yea what few counters them counters them hardcore but theyre the best overall good model we got. Aside from a LOT of fire hoping for bad rolls, not much straight up shuts them down.
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My issue with orks in 6th (granted i started playing right after 6th hit so idont know 5th) is it feels like the 2 weaknesses orks have are so massive we cant get around it. One is IG, which i tend to face often.
Armor walls.
That range is rediculous as well as good aim and punch power. Even if i steal initiative i still lose roughly half my army before i get there. Dakkajets get owned by his quads and whatever that other good AA weapon was they got, armor gets owned by leman russes, bikes get owned by sheer volumn of large blast templates and other fire. Since Kommandos suck donkeydick, orks have no way to at least force them to turn around for a turn or two letting me get up there.
The other is lack of a monstrous creature. Personally i feel this is a big letdown because of the sheer durability they tend to have, we lack except Ghazzy but hes too slow once his trukk goes boom. MEQs, Nids, and necrons all have something that is very durable, packs a punch, and is either mobile on its own or has rules you can buy/use to get it around. We have slow and purposeful, which is a kick in the dick.
So far i play against Blood Angels, Space Marines, IG, Nids, and Necrons and on the rare occation a dark eldar biker force. That ones funny, biker against biker usually.
IG is the only one i cannot win no matter what i bring. That wall is unreachable. I know if i can get there i will decimate it, but i cant get there.
Sounds like your opposition is just exactly the worst case. I play against BA, Eldar, Tau, and Chaos, so I have more old armies to play against. Orks still have some stram, but they are ready for an update and its starting to show. Its still and incredibly fun army though and should survivepretty well till the r,ored update next summer.
I could deal without the monstrous creature issue, its not mandatory just useful.
But i also agree just a few rule changes or a couple new ones would be wonders.
My blood angels opponent said my meganobs were cheaper terminators. I told him he was full of crap because i cant deepstrike them in a landraider and they arent slow and purposeful. Also, said terminators he was using had a 3+ invul wheras i have a 5 if i take a dok or none if i dont.
Maybe some sort of droppod or the same rule that lets him deepstrike a landraider would solve our issues. Even if it costed an arm and a leg lol
Also Meganobz are exactly the price of regular Terminators. Not sure about tooled-out BA ones, though.
I think if they allowed Squiggoths as HS and popped Flash Gitz into Elite, we'd have some good times. We already have one of the most dangerous, useful flyers around, and the cheapest (bar none) AV14 in the game (of which we can get upwards of 12 on the field at once!). Our basic troop is still incredibly dangerous either at range or close up.
About the only thing keeping us from top-tier is the lack of ranged anti-tank (and Lootas don't quite cut it). If Tankbustas had some way to split fire....
Now, I'm also thinking about some heavy support in the form of a Land Raider or Dreadknight (Deffknight?)
Land Raider Crusader - Psybolt Ammunition = 260
Dreadknight - Personal Teleporter (Makes it jump infantry), Gatling Psilencer (Lots of Dakka to fit the theme!), Daemon Hammer (So smash isn't needed) = 250
There's also the Stormraven, though I'm not a huge fan of it.
Anvildude wrote: Also Meganobz are exactly the price of regular Terminators. Not sure about tooled-out BA ones, though.
I think if they allowed Squiggoths as HS and popped Flash Gitz into Elite, we'd have some good times. We already have one of the most dangerous, useful flyers around, and the cheapest (bar none) AV14 in the game (of which we can get upwards of 12 on the field at once!). Our basic troop is still incredibly dangerous either at range or close up.
About the only thing keeping us from top-tier is the lack of ranged anti-tank (and Lootas don't quite cut it). If Tankbustas had some way to split fire....
ya I agree tankbustas need something to make them worth the points, even if it was something like +1 BS when shooting at vehicles or maybe the tank hunter special rule? ( never made sense to me why they didnt have that rule since its literally implied in their name)
Tankbustas...lol...such a sad attempt for a unit. Even if they didnt have Glory Hog at all i wouldnt take them. What can they do that biker nobs cant, and biker nobs are WAY more survivable and faster?
The issue with orks and range anti tank is the few guns we got with the punch to do it are killed by our BS2 and we cant mass it. Rokkits are about it, but unless its buggies or koptas they arent that reliable and expensive as crap. And they arent that great on AV14 anyway, being Str8
In my experience in 6th, or bad luck whatever you wanna call it. my battlewagons die pretty easy once they get about halfway across the board. My dakkawagons i like to run (lootas + meks + kff + riggers + zzap gun) survive pretty well because they sit just outside my deployment zone, so he has a lot of ground to cover to get at it. Any time i try to use my BW to charge forward even if i use multiple BWs they just get shot to hell and back. We cant reliably penetrate av14, but a lot of other races can. My front gets pen'd all the damn time, and its always a 5+ on the roll.
And if i wanted to glance down av14 i would use TL rokkit koptas, not tankbustas.
Yes they probably fit that one situation better than bikes or koptas but in all honesty how often is that? bikers are better 9/10 of the time.
I have found that folk used to having their fliers just rampage orks can find 15 rokkits arcing up towards them a bit intimidating, even if only 5 hit...
Tankbustas are also great for stomping on the Nid big bugs, as most are T6, 3+
A wagon full of them unleashes mean firepower, and you can drive by smack things with tank hammas and busta bomms. Once they get really close, accuracy increases significantly with the squigs and throwing the bomms. Anything they assault is almost immediately destroyed. And they suffer from "renowned bad unit" syndrome, so most opponents won't really pay much attention. Just as good as a melta squad, but not as suicidal.
So are there some good ways to use tankbustas in your typical game store play? Obviously they're not the best choice if I'm going to adepticon or something, but would they work against your average joe player?
Looking through my bitz box I realized I easily have enough rokkits to make a 15 man unit of tankbustas, so I figured I'd ask before I went through the trouble of converting them up.
I occasionally run 12 in a wagon with rokkits and a kannon, along with the trusty boarding plank. In a friendly game, they are pretty damn useful. At a range, they can put some good shots into armor, and as you get closer, they just get more and more accurate. Anything in cc with them is a confirmed kill, and you can just roll by things and drive by hit them with the hamma or busta bomms. Works well for me, but YMMV.
Avoid dedicated infantry killers as well as you can. They're Boyz, but they're few enough that they fold to a lot of threats. However, you can use them to control your opponent's vehicle movement pretty well.
Tankbustas and Flash Gitz are some of the most Psychological of Ork units. Usually it's just "Run up and Smash!", but for these guys, they're most useful for board control. Anything within 30" or so is in danger of getting blown up. Anything within 24" is in more danger (it will get hit, the question is whether it'll get penned) due to Bomb Squiggs. Anything within 12" is pretty much dead. (remember, this only talks about Vehicles). That's a fairly significant bubble of Danger for enemy armour, especially for things like Land Raiders and Monoliths, where players are used to being able to pretty much ignore Ork shooting with them.
well i am running random lists right now so maybe i should try the BW Killkannon with 12 bustas inside just for the heck of it. Tomorrow im going to give the meganob + maddok a try, though i fear his rule for charging at nearest foe will be my downfall, but its just friendly games anyway.
Also wanna try lobbas, but i gotta scratch build some first (i dislike proxies even in friendly games, i just feel like such a git doing it). Already have gretchin to man it, just need the artillery itself (bought an M1A01 tank at the local craft stand in the base exchange...yea im military...and plan to salvage the hell out of it for wheels, armor plates, another cannon, etc etc. 22 bucks? sure why not lol).
Not sure if id ever try flash gitz though, i feel my 3 heavy slots are too valuable to get them. Every game i dont run battlewagons or dreads i get flattened by turn 2 lol.
A dozen S8 AP3 rokkits can't be a bad thing, even if they're only BS2, and especially when targetting non-light vehicles or heavy infantry who'd otherwise be yawning at the shooting from Lootas (the obvious alternative choice in the same slot). But certainly Lootas remain a better choice against horde or non-Meq or light vehicles, or probably for an all-comers/tourney list. And I worry that a BW full of bustas would be a big target priority for any opponent who fears rokkits - although i guess the same is true for a BW full of lootas...
@Vineheart01: I happen to be scratchbuilding lobbas right now, keeping them all GW bits to stay tourney-legal - I'll be posting pics in the P&M forum soonish.
Every time I have taken a BW of tank bustas it has gone exploded turn 1 or 2 and with it now being str4 it would hurt the bustas even more. I just can't justify taking them usually they are just boys and go down easy if not in a transport although the bomb squigs have done well from time to time as well as kill my own BW or truk from time to time to =P
Yea thats my biggest peev about orks. Elites or not, theyre all just as squishy as boyz except meganobs and regular nobs yet cost WAY more. On top of it, dont even have the option for heavy armor so theyre fixated 6+ saves unless you wanna buy grotsnik for cyborks. Though i did find in the FAQ that he can give cybork to the entire army, not one unit, granted that would get expensive quick. Rather a 5+ invul than a 4+ armor though.
Meanwhile every other race, their elites or special-type units are either default durable or have options to make them durable. MEQs have good saves to begin with, and all their elites are even better on top of the crazy special damage rules.
Actually now im tempted to try that....get Grotsnik and just cybork out the entire army that can possibly get it (nonvehicle). Or, at the least, anything but boyz with the exception of the nob (since its says nothing about the entire unit taking it or not at all).
Edit: If i like the lobbas, i might scratch some tourny-legal ones. However i havent ever played in a tourny except one coordinated by friends anyway as an excuse to get all of us together rather than 2-5 at a time. Neither do i intend to, since i am in this to have fun hence why i am orks (DONT PRESS DAT! haha) and people who are WAAC-type drive me crazy with the constant arguing of which rule trumps which rule. I always go by BRB -> Codex -> House rules. If my Codex says something, i dont give a rats ass bout the BRB's version, and house rules are only additional rules as people who say "No XXX units!" (unless its FW units) basically say they cant fight those units, so they ban it.
Vineheart01 wrote: Yea thats my biggest peev about orks. Elites or not, theyre all just as squishy as boyz except meganobs and regular nobs yet cost WAY more. On top of it, dont even have the option for heavy armor so theyre fixated 6+ saves unless you wanna buy grotsnik for cyborks. Though i did find in the FAQ that he can give cybork to the entire army, not one unit, granted that would get expensive quick. Rather a 5+ invul than a 4+ armor though.
Meanwhile every other race, their elites or special-type units are either default durable or have options to make them durable. MEQs have good saves to begin with, and all their elites are even better on top of the crazy special damage rules.
Actually now im tempted to try that....get Grotsnik and just cybork out the entire army that can possibly get it (nonvehicle). Or, at the least, anything but boyz with the exception of the nob (since its says nothing about the entire unit taking it or not at all).
Grotsnik rules says any unit may take it at +5 pts per model. Even if you were somehow allowed to not cybork the boyz, you would still pay 30x 5 points.
I've been somewhat successful with tankbustaz in battlewagons now that they don't have to take impossible shots anymore. If you really want to take out non-vehicle units, just drive them outside of range, and if you do want to take out vehicles, tank hammers and tankbusta bomms hitting on 3+ make a mess out of about any vehicle, including the landraider. It still hurts a lot when it explodes(which it will do a lot more often than wreck), since half of your 15 point boyz die.
Boyz X20 - Shootas, Nob with Bosspole and Big Choppa (I'm trying out PK alternatives)
Boyz X20 - Shootas, Nob with Bosspole and Big Choppa (I'm trying out PK alternatives)
Boyz X19 - Shootas, Nob with Bosspole and Big Choppa (I'm trying out PK alternatives)
Meganobz X5 - 5 Kombi-Skorchas
Battlewagonn X4 - Deff Rolla, 2 Big Shootas, 3 have Grot Riggers
Dakkajet - Extra Supa Shoota
Warbuggies X3 - Twin Linked Rokkits (Going to use them as a screen for the wagons, an idea that I'm looting from an earlier post in the thread (Thanks, Matphat!))
Warbuggies X2 - Twin-Linked Rokkits
Thoughts?
I've fallen in love with my Weridboy (It's gone to the point where I said "I wish I could deep strike onto that objective" and my Weirdboy did, causing a mess to the Imperial Guard lines that were nearby). He gets the job done.
Well with this you can run the buggies 1 of 2 ways. Rush them forwards and do what Ive been saying to do for a few months now. Problem is, youve only 5 buggies.....that might workish, it might not. Im thinking since youre spamming av14 there, might as well keep them in the back of that wall of av14. That way, if something comes in deepstrike or outflanks, they will either have to shoot the buggies, or grant your BW a cover save.
But as always, if its a small table, like most tournies run now a days........Id still be tempted to just shove those buggies down your opponents throat, simply because on a 4x4 table, your going to be right there on your first turn.
I am not sure how many people would be able to kill off 20+ separate units in a game. The key part of these is that they wouldn't be able to target enough units per turn to kill them off, not to mention that they are dealing with massive amounts of models.
I am not sure how many people would be able to kill off 20+ separate units in a game. The key part of these is that they wouldn't be able to target enough units per turn to kill them off, not to mention that they are dealing with massive amounts of models.
It's interesting, to say the least. I think it's got potential, but you'd be losing VPs left and right when those little blobs get destroyed.
Also, I just read through the BRB's FAQ, and it mentions that a vehicle can go at cruising speed and fire a single ordnance shot (no snap fire on any other weapons though).
This makes me want to break out the 105 pt Boomwagons again, as even Don't Touch Dat! can't stop the Boomgun from firing!
Id say, find a way for a KFF in those lists, mainly because now in 6th, footslogging is the only time I suggest one. And those little units will need all the help they can get to survive.
This would be frigging BRUTAL if the "Mob up" rule still existed. Good gravy, by the time the horde got to the enemy, itd be 2 mobs of 50 boyz each
Automatically Appended Next Post: Boomguns - That trick would work, but youll have to have a unit infront of your wagon, otherwise itll "dont press dat" to its maximum, which wont allow you to fire.
What is the main targets you tend to send them at? I have been using them against infantry or AV10 vehicles and getting meh results.
Also, Strafing Run clarification. The FAQ says ignore these rules and look at the BRB version - which isnt FAQ'd - and it says "Regardless of the target" for pinning tests. Does this mean i can force a pinning test against things that normally cant be pinned? i.e. basically making bikes take a dangerous terrain test? Or vehicles for that matter.
EDIT: As for the boomgun line preventing Dont Press Dat! rolls, i remember reading in the FAQ about the vehicle still counting as moved even if it didnt if that happened so you still cant fire ordnance since, despite relentless rule, moving cruising speed stats snap fires.
Spoiler:
Q. If a Looted Wagon rolls a ‘1’ for “Don’t Press Dat”, but is unable
to complete its move (or even to move at all) because it is blocked by
something it cannot move through (friendly models, etc), does it still
count as having moved for the purposes of shooting? (p54)
A. Yes, regardless of how far it actually moves, the Wagon
always counts as having moved at cruising speed.
EDIT2: I just realized Dakkajets dont get BS3 against fliers....wtf? BRB Strafing Run mentions against nonflier or skimmer types, but Fighta Ace wasnt FAQ'd at all and it only says Skimmers.
LAME!
i tend to send my dakkajets taking out side armor on things as vindicators - predeators tau firewarriors or dreadnoughts generally :3 with so many shots on a waagh iv'e never failed taking out armor 10-12.
As for the boomgun line preventing Dont Press Dat! rolls, i remember reading in the FAQ about the vehicle still counting as moved even if it didnt if that happened so you still cant fire ordnance since, despite relentless rule, moving cruising speed stats snap fires.
Spoiler:
Q. If a Looted Wagon rolls a ‘1’ for “Don’t Press Dat”, but is unable
to complete its move (or even to move at all) because it is blocked by
something it cannot move through (friendly models, etc), does it still
count as having moved for the purposes of shooting? (p54)
A. Yes, regardless of how far it actually moves, the Wagon
always counts as having moved at cruising speed.
And the BRBFAQ says:
Q: Can a vehicle that has moved at Cruising Speed still fire an
Ordnance weapon? (p71)
A: Yes, providing that the vehicle is not Snap Firing
So, if you don't even try to shoot the big shoota(s)/rokkit(s) on your Boomwagon, you can roll a 1 and still open fire. GW just made one of the saddest things in the game into something much more deadly! (My favorite things is when Boomwagons + Shokk Attack guns eat Fire Warrior squads. It tempts me to shout "Who sucks with ranged firepower now?")
I think I might right up a little article about it for discussion.
I don't get it.
A Looted Wagon must snap fire when move at cruising speed, therefore it can't shoot the boom gun - the FAQ doesn't change that.
Only Fast vehicle could still shoot while cruising (therefore a Fast vehicle can shoot an ordinance at cruise speed, as per FAQ). But Looted Wagons are not Fast :( or did I missed something ?
XC18 wrote: I don't get it.
A Looted Wagon must snap fire when move at cruising speed, therefore it can't shoot the boom gun - the FAQ doesn't change that.
Only Fast vehicle could still shoot while cruising. Looted Wagon are not Fast :( or did I missed something ?
It reads awkwardly (to me, at least) in the rulebook, but here's what I've found:
Page 71 - Moving and Shooting with Vehicles - "Vehicles always have the Relentless special rule."
Page 71 - Vehicles & Ordnance Weapons
"Unlike other units, vehicles can move and fire with Ordnance weapons. However, a vehicle that fires an Ordnance weapon can only make Snap Shots with its other weapons that turn."
Ork FAQ:
"Q. If a Looted Wagon rolls a ‘1’ for “Don’t Press Dat”, but is unable
to complete its move (or even to move at all) because it is blocked by
something it cannot move through (friendly models, etc), does it still
count as having moved for the purposes of shooting? (p54)
A. Yes, regardless of how far it actually moves, the Wagon
always counts as having moved at cruising speed."
BRBFAQ -
"Q: Can a vehicle that has moved at Cruising Speed still fire an
Ordnance weapon? (p71)
A: Yes, providing that the vehicle is not Snap Firing "
How that all reads to me is: If you don't roll a 1 for Don't Press Dat!, you're fine. If you do, you can still fire the Boomgun, but only the Boomgun.
Billagio wrote: Is the bikerboss going to be outflanking with the koptas?
I think I would drop the looted wagons and take lootas personally.
Lootas have a bad tendency to fail Ld and die, or just miss. So that, on top of the rules query on firing Ordnance with Looted Wagons is the reason I'm going to go with the wagons.
Plus, the models are awesome!
I'm not sure what I'll do with the boss yet, but he'll most likely scout for a T2 assault.
Well thats weird. The FAQ does state cruising speed which the BRB mentioned only snap fire, so i guess it does override it since thats what FAQs are for anyway. Odd. I guess the Snap Firing mention means if it suffers a pen hit and you roll for it.
Well that makes Ordinance a bit stronger now because who cares if you moved or not since theyre going to fire snaps with everything anyway after firing that bigass gun.
Also noone answered my question about the Strafing Run stating "regardless of the target" for pinning tests. What does that do for targets that normally cant be pinned?
I think no one has answered it because you keep answering yourself every time you ask. How can you pin something that cant be pinned exactly?? To take a pinning test, you need a Ld value. Vehicles do not have a Ld value, and therefore cannot be pinned. Doesnt matter what strafing run says.
KingCracker wrote: I think no one has answered it because you keep answering yourself every time you ask. How can you pin something that cant be pinned exactly?? To take a pinning test, you need a Ld value. Vehicles do not have a Ld value, and therefore cannot be pinned. Doesnt matter what strafing run says.
Just like how bikes can never be pinned because it's explicitly stated in the book that they can't be pinned.
Maybe you're just reading it wrong or have a different language codex. In the english white dwarf entry, it's pretty clear that the strafing run entry just gives you the +1 BS against most ground units and pinning (normal pinning)
KingCracker wrote: I think no one has answered it because you keep answering yourself every time you ask. How can you pin something that cant be pinned exactly?? To take a pinning test, you need a Ld value. Vehicles do not have a Ld value, and therefore cannot be pinned. Doesnt matter what strafing run says.
Just like how bikes can never be pinned because it's explicitly stated in the book that they can't be pinned.
Maybe you're just reading it wrong or have a different language codex. In the english white dwarf entry, it's pretty clear that the strafing run entry just gives you the +1 BS against most ground units and pinning (normal pinning)
Probably is a translation issue, White Dwarf says the same thing for me as the BRB it just doesnt mention fliers since it came out before flier rules. Both say "Regardless of the target" which is what im talking about. Makes no sense to have that if the target automatically passes it anyway because of fearless, being a vehicle, or a bike. Thats why i was asking because that made me think there was some special event that happened like forcing bikes to take a dangerous terrain test or something.
Vineheart01 wrote: Well thats weird. The FAQ does state cruising speed which the BRB mentioned only snap fire, so i guess it does override it since thats what FAQs are for anyway. Odd. I guess the Snap Firing mention means if it suffers a pen hit and you roll for it.
Well that makes Ordinance a bit stronger now because who cares if you moved or not since theyre going to fire snaps with everything anyway after firing that bigass gun.
No, you've got that wrong. You are allowed to fire ordnance weapons after moving cruising speed if your vehicle is not snap-firing. You are not given permission to snap-fire ordnance weapons. Most vehicles are snap-firing all their weapons after moving cruising speed, and my thus not fire their ordnance weapons. Fast or super-heavy vehicles, for example, are not snap-firing all their weapons after moving cruising speed, and thus may still use their ordnance weapons.
Also note that all ordnance weapons except for those odd valkyrie missiles are blast weapons, which you are explicitly forbidden from firing using the snap-fire rules. So unless you are allowed to fire at least one weapon at your regular BS, you may not use your ordnance weapon.
Ugh i really wish GW would word this crap better. The question doesnt ask what kind of vehicle, thats why im thinking any vehicle can do it regardless of the snap fire at cruising speed rule. The way its worded i dont see how you could take it any other way without adding in a word here or there to specify whether the snap fire rule from cruising speed is ignored or not for ordnance.
Also, the bit about Relentless comes after the bit about snap firing at cruising speed. And this FAQ further enhances the idea of still being able to fire at cruising speed because of that. Any rule that conflicts another that came before it comes in as a "but" or "however" to me. Thats just how im used to reading or speaking.
You can call a girl all sorts of wonderful things but the instant you say "But" and then say 1 negative thing suddenly everything you said means nothing. Same idea (lol sad example i know)
Vineheart01 wrote: Ugh i really wish GW would word this crap better. The question doesnt ask what kind of vehicle, thats why im thinking any vehicle can do it regardless of the snap fire at cruising speed rule. The way its worded i dont see how you could take it any other way without adding in a word here or there to specify whether the snap fire rule from cruising speed is ignored or not for ordnance. Also, the bit about Relentless comes after the bit about snap firing at cruising speed. And this FAQ further enhances the idea of still being able to fire at cruising speed because of that. Any rule that conflicts another that came before it comes in as a "but" or "however" to me. Thats just how im used to reading or speaking. You can call a girl all sorts of wonderful things but the instant you say "But" and then say 1 negative thing suddenly everything you said means nothing. Same idea (lol sad example i know)
Yeah, bad example, don't let your girl see that
It's really simple though, and despite GW's bad rules managing, they got this one perfectly clear. Some basic logic:
WH40k Has a permissive ruleset, so in order to shoot, you must be have permission to shoot. Seems trivial, but that's really the most important thing. By default any unit may shoot its weapon during it's shooting phase, so we've got permission as long as we are not forbidden otherwise.
Limitations: 1) Ordnance blast weapons are not allowed to shoot when you have moved. 2) Ordnance blast weapons are not allowed to shoot when you are snap firing for any reason. 3) Any rule explicitly tells you that you're not allowed to shoot (for example, when moving flat-out) 4) There are no targets in range and sight to shoot.
So if all of those four are not true, you may shoot at your heart's content.
5) Vehicles are both relentless and have explicit permission to shoot when moving, so you have permission to ignore 1)
So even if 1) is true and all other are not, you may still shoot with a vehicle. A big mek with a SAG may not.
6) Vehicles that move at combat speed may fire a single weapon at their full BS, all other weapons have to snap-fire. Because of 5) that weapon may be an ordnance blast weapon. 7) Vehicles that move at cruising speed may only fire weapons to snap fire. Because of 2) none of those may be an ordnance blast weapon. 8) Fast vehicles may use 6) when moving at cruising speed and ignore 6) when moving at combat speed.
So at cruising speed, a fast vehicle may shoot one weapon which may be an ordnance blast weapon because of 5), unless you are snap firing (for example, when your vehicle is shaken), there is no target or you are explicitly forbidden from shooting.
8) The FAQ tells you that even if you are moving very fast, you may still Ignore 1). Then it goes on reminding you, that you still have to follow 2). Since it doesn't mention 3) and 4) at all, they are also still in effect.
So basically, the FAQ didn't change the rules at all. It just clarified that cruising speed is completely irrelevant to the decision of whether you can shoot an ordnance weapon or not. As long as your vehicle is allowed to shoot a weapon at your full BS and you have something to shoot at, that weapon may always be an ordnance weapon.
So I have some points left over as you can see. I was considering taking 4 MANz with a megaboss in a trukk to fill out the extra points. For the same cost I could get 22 lootas for some fire support or 2 trukk boy mobs and some extra big shootas.
I guess my main question is do you guys think I should opt for the MANz missile, lootas or trukks to fill out the points? My friend usually brings something along the lines of:
2 or so tac squads with a las cannon in each,
a missile devo squad,
2x Ass cannon deads
a las pred.
An HQ of some sort, prob a libby
personally i think the loota support would be better. You have PKs in the boy groups, and MANz want the same targets they do. If you went against an air heavy list you'd have severe issues with no lootas to deal with them.
However i like your idea there....i outta try that at 1500pts and have both lootas and manz missile.
With that many LasCannons, I'd actually suggest Truckboyz (though the Lootas would be very good against the vehicles) for more cheap meat for him to waste his high-strength shots on. Those Lascannons will rip right through Mega Armour, of course. Is there still Insta-death for double T? I think so...
Just dont go overboard on the MANz like a BW of 10. Its not worth it. 5 will survive/punch through just about anything, and theyre usually stuck once their ride goes boom so typically they dont get more than 1-2 targets before theyre spent. Better off with 2 5man MANz missiles My blood angels buddy keeps tryin to talk me into just going 10MANz in a BW because he usually runs 8-10 termies in a single group with good results. I keep pointing this out every time: SLOW AND PURPOSEFUL SUCKS
Boarding planks on the BW is awesome. Ive been running Trukk walls infront of my BW MANz missile and been workin pretty well. I dont even disembark them against AV10-11 i just use the plank and ive yet to not pop one first try, even with just 1 dude attacking. And you can do it at 12(13RPJ) inches per codex, since its not a disembark.
Vineheart01 wrote: Just dont go overboard on the MANz like a BW of 10. Its not worth it. 5 will survive/punch through just about anything, and theyre usually stuck once their ride goes boom so typically they dont get more than 1-2 targets before theyre spent. Better off with 2 5man MANz missiles My blood angels buddy keeps tryin to talk me into just going 10MANz in a BW because he usually runs 8-10 termies in a single group with good results. I keep pointing this out every time: SLOW AND PURPOSEFUL SUCKS
Boarding planks on the BW is awesome. Ive been running Trukk walls infront of my BW MANz missile and been workin pretty well. I dont even disembark them against AV10-11 i just use the plank and ive yet to not pop one first try, even with just 1 dude attacking. And you can do it at 12(13RPJ) inches per codex, since its not a disembark.
Yeah Im not gonna do anything like that, unless its a fun game where we are messing around. SnP isnt as bad as it used to be since you can move the full amount and all now. You just dont get to run or overwatch, which does suck.
Which is still a huge weakness. And far as i know Orks are the only ones with it...far as i know...IG/MEQs/Necrons/Nids dont have it and thats all i ever face (faced Eldar once, biker force)
Vineheart01 wrote: Just dont go overboard on the MANz like a BW of 10. Its not worth it. 5 will survive/punch through just about anything, and theyre usually stuck once their ride goes boom so typically they dont get more than 1-2 targets before theyre spent. Better off with 2 5man MANz missiles My blood angels buddy keeps tryin to talk me into just going 10MANz in a BW because he usually runs 8-10 termies in a single group with good results. I keep pointing this out every time: SLOW AND PURPOSEFUL SUCKS
Boarding planks on the BW is awesome. Ive been running Trukk walls infront of my BW MANz missile and been workin pretty well. I dont even disembark them against AV10-11 i just use the plank and ive yet to not pop one first try, even with just 1 dude attacking. And you can do it at 12(13RPJ) inches per codex, since its not a disembark.
Yeah Im not gonna do anything like that, unless its a fun game where we are messing around. SnP isnt as bad as it used to be since you can move the full amount and all now. You just dont get to run or overwatch, which does suck.
You cant sweeping advance either. Also, there a re a couple units that get SnP, like Broadsides can get it. l
Vineheart01 wrote: Just dont go overboard on the MANz like a BW of 10. Its not worth it. 5 will survive/punch through just about anything, and theyre usually stuck once their ride goes boom so typically they dont get more than 1-2 targets before theyre spent. Better off with 2 5man MANz missiles My blood angels buddy keeps tryin to talk me into just going 10MANz in a BW because he usually runs 8-10 termies in a single group with good results. I keep pointing this out every time: SLOW AND PURPOSEFUL SUCKS
Boarding planks on the BW is awesome. Ive been running Trukk walls infront of my BW MANz missile and been workin pretty well. I dont even disembark them against AV10-11 i just use the plank and ive yet to not pop one first try, even with just 1 dude attacking. And you can do it at 12(13RPJ) inches per codex, since its not a disembark.
Yeah Im not gonna do anything like that, unless its a fun game where we are messing around. SnP isnt as bad as it used to be since you can move the full amount and all now. You just dont get to run or overwatch, which does suck.
You cant sweeping advance either. Also, there a re a couple units that get SnP, like Broadsides can get it. l
Well, for them it's an upgrade. For Manz it's detrimental. Oblitz get it as well, i believe. But again, they have a use for it.
I don't know... If I played Tau I'd like Broadsides to have the ability to lay a couple Str10 shots into anything trying to charge them, just as a little threat.
Anvildude wrote: I don't know... If I played Tau I'd like Broadsides to have the ability to lay a couple Str10 shots into anything trying to charge them, just as a little threat.
They still can. The upgrade lets them choose to be SnP until the end of their turn, so they basically just have relentless.
Is it worth running trukks with RPJ, a rokkit, and a boyz squad with a rokkit? Or would it be better to save the points and put it elsewhere and just run the trukk bare?
virx67 wrote: Is it worth running trukks with RPJ, a rokkit, and a boyz squad with a rokkit? Or would it be better to save the points and put it elsewhere and just run the trukk bare?
I've always found the trukks to be fast enough so that one extra inch really would never have made any significant difference. But you don't run the trukks bare, you'll want a ram to make sure you get through terrain.
virx67 wrote: Is it worth running trukks with RPJ, a rokkit, and a boyz squad with a rokkit? Or would it be better to save the points and put it elsewhere and just run the trukk bare?
I find rokkits on Trukks to be wasted points. They are just waaayyy to unreliable, or put another way, reliably bad, for the points.
If you have the points, throw a Big Shoota into the squad.
As for Trukks, I only ever run them with a Reinforced Ram, so you will rarely ever be bothered by any terrain (and you can cross the board in 2 turns!)
Yea I used to try and spam rokkits on EVERYTHING in 5th. It worked ish........but mostly not really. They just cost SO much in points and really dont work so well. Points are better spent on bigshootas. Im not even kidding. Im in love with bigshootas, I want their children.
I feel the same way since 6th dropped. I always run three on my BWs and always max them out in boyz squads, aaaannnd I always run them on my koptas now.
More or less the only rokkits I run anywhere anymore are on my buggies when I run four or more.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
KingCracker wrote: Yea I used to try and spam rokkits on EVERYTHING in 5th. It worked ish........but mostly not really. They just cost SO much in points and really dont work so well. Points are better spent on bigshootas. Im not even kidding. Im in love with bigshootas, I want their children.
KingCracker wrote: Yea I used to try and spam rokkits on EVERYTHING in 5th. It worked ish........but mostly not really. They just cost SO much in points and really dont work so well. Points are better spent on bigshootas. Im not even kidding. Im in love with bigshootas, I want their children.
Their children are the shoota boyz... they're good lads.
Dr. What wrote: If you have the points, throw a Big Shoota into the squad.
As for Trukks, I only ever run them with a Reinforced Ram, so you will rarely ever be bothered by any terrain (and you can cross the board in 2 turns!)
With a turbo boost, you should be across the board in one turn, unless you're playing spearhead. Can't assault, but it's nice to stick a gang of trukks literally on top of your opponent's deployment.
Is it better than loading them with rokkits? I've been thinking to do all mine with rokkits in my flash gitz army, because the gitz do some pretty decent anti-infantry, as well as trukk boyz. Or are lootas enough?
Well, it's less of a flash gitz ARMY, more of an army made to incorporate a unit of flashgitz effectively. So it'll be five gitz with a dok to start. I can post some WIP pics tomorrow if you want.
loota boy wrote: Is it better than loading them with rokkits? I've been thinking to do all mine with rokkits in my flash gitz army, because the gitz do some pretty decent anti-infantry, as well as trukk boyz. Or are lootas enough?
Rokkits are a marginal bit of wargear unless twin linked. Statistically bad, and actually bad. I ran them for a year before it occurred to me that they never did anything (And I tend to roll well).
Load them with big shootas, and use your lootas and big guns for anti-tank.
loota boy wrote: Well, it's less of a flash gitz ARMY, more of an army made to incorporate a unit of flashgitz effectively. So it'll be five gitz with a dok to start. I can post some WIP pics tomorrow if you want.
I should mess around with taking my Gitz again as well. Since I dont touch my Heavy Support anymore, those slots are free to use
By the odds you will kill more marines with rockits then big shootas. So if you face alot of meq's I still say stick with rockits. Also you can have a shot at their light and medium tanks. The big shoota is not a good option any way you look at it.
Crawdadr wrote: By the odds you will kill more marines with rockits then big shootas. So if you face alot of meq's I still say stick with rockits. Also you can have a shot at their light and medium tanks. The big shoota is not a good option any way you look at it.
I'm not sure I believe the math supports this, but I'm bad at math and can't argue it. Anecdotally, I can say, Big Shootas have out performed Rokkits for me, consistently, for at least a year. Wanna show your math?
Crawdadr wrote: By the odds you will kill more marines with rockits then big shootas. So if you face alot of meq's I still say stick with rockits. Also you can have a shot at their light and medium tanks. The big shoota is not a good option any way you look at it.
No you are not correct. Do a full x5 mob of rokkit koptas, shooting at marines, VS a x5 mob of bigshoota koptas. Youll see youre incorrect on that assumption.
3 Shots = 1 Hit.
3+ to wound = ~.67 wounds
3+ Save = .2 Unsaved Wounds/Big Shoota
1 Rokkit Launcha (Shot by a Boy):
1 Shot = ~.3 hits.
2+ to wound = .27 Wounds/Rokkit Launcha
5+ Cover Save (Assuming the SM player is smart and still uses cover) = 0.19 Unsaved Wounds/Rokkit Launcha
Yea, my Big Shoota Deffkoptas (2 squads of 3 outflanking) glanced to death 2 Rhinos and got lucky on a Predator penetrating hit for a 6 on the damage table tonight. I think he expected 1 unit to do some damage, but not 2 of them to pick off a Rhino each turn 2 and then gang up on the Predator turn 3. That threat range and psychological blow is serious.
3 Shots = 1 Hit. 3+ to wound = ~.67 wounds 3+ Save = .2 Unsaved Wounds/Big Shoota
1 Rokkit Launcha (Shot by a Boy):
1 Shot = ~.3 hits. 2+ to wound = .27 Wounds/Rokkit Launcha 5+ Cover Save (Assuming the SM player is smart and still uses cover) = 0.19 Unsaved Wounds/Rokkit Launcha
This is just scratching the surface. Now do a mob shooting 5 TL rokkits, vs mob shooting 15 TL bigshoota shots. Youll see it greatly in favor of the bigshootas. They can glance transports to death pretty regularly.
ALSO, most times, youll just focus fire on the marines outside of the cover. So really giving the marine a cover save is just trying to make the rokkits look even better
This is just scratching the surface. Now do a mob shooting 5 TL rokkits, vs mob shooting 15 TL bigshoota shots. Youll see it greatly in favor of the bigshootas. They can glance transports to death pretty regularly.
So this got me thinking, and you're absolutely right- the TL bigshootas are a great option against AV 10. So I decided to go a little past scratching the surface and do some computations here during lunch.
Now, I'm normally not a huge mathhammer fan, as there is far too much complexity in the game to be easily captured with statistics.
But when your goal is to pick TL shootas or rokkits for your outflanking kopters that are designed to hunt transports, well mathhammer can help you choose.
I've spoilered the results for people who don't like looking at graphs quite as much as I do.
So, 5 kopters with TL rokkits vs 5 kopters with TL big shootas. Here's the histrograms showing the probability of taking off a given number of hull points (glance or pen) with both weapons vs AV 10. All results are averaged over 100,000 simulations.
Spoiler:
And next the big results. First is the mean hull point damage vs AV 10, 11, and 12.
Next is the prob of destroying a 3 hull point, av 10 vehicle with one volley (including rolling 6s on the vehicle damage table).
Spoiler:
Moral of the story- 5 bs kopters are about 10% more likely to destroy a 3 HP, AV 10 vehicle than 5 rokkit kopters. In fact, they have almost a 60% chance of doing so, but they suffer against AV 11 and are (obviously) worthless against av 12.
Against standard t4 3+ MEQ troops, the rokkits will do slightly better if the marines get no cover save. It evens out pretty quickly and the big shootas have the advantage against marines in cover.
Spoiler:
In this next plot, cover save of 7 is actually no save. My plotter is being difficult and not taking text labels right now...
Matlab code available on request.
So there are a couple of things the math isn't taking into account:
1)big shootas have an extra 12 " of range
2) big shootas are 10 pts less
3) Rokkits have more penetrating hits. I took the vehicle exploding into account in this analysis, but pens obviously have lots of other nice benefits not captured here.
After looking through this, I think if you're interesting in kopters to outflank and hunt transports and the transports' squishy contents, shootas are a great choice. I think I'm gonna run them this way next time and invest the extra points in more boys. Or maybe a buzzsaw. Overall the big shootas might be great for opening up chimeras and gunning down gaurdsmen.
Also, first post! Long time forum stalker, first time poster.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, please let me know if you find any errors or inconsistencies- I think it's working but there could always be a bug in my calculation code.
So there are a couple of things the math isn't taking into account:
1)big shootas have an extra 12 " of range
2) big shootas are 10 pts less
3) Rokkits have more penetrating hits. I took the vehicle exploding into account in this analysis, but pens obviously have lots of other nice benefits not captured here.
After looking through this, I think if you're interesting in kopters to outflank and hunt transports and the transports' squishy contents, shootas are a great choice. I think I'm gonna run them this way next time and invest the extra points in more boys. Or maybe a buzzsaw. Overall the big shootas might be great for opening up chimeras and gunning down gaurdsmen.
Also, first post! Long time forum stalker, first time poster.
First, interesting math. Thank you.
Second.....yeah its great on AV 10 and guardsmen.....but since most armies tend to lean towards MEQ and their main transports are AV 11......I dont know if its worth the investment to convert koptors to big shooters yet. Unless your getting consistant . But its definately something to consider using.in the future, considering points rockets take up. Thanks.
Keep in mind that koptas are very mobile and get to scout so the they should be able to get to side or rear armour pretty quick even turn 1 is possible.
If you want to glance mech to death with TL S5 why not just run normal bikers
3 Shots = 1 Hit.
3+ to wound = ~.67 wounds
3+ Save = .2 Unsaved Wounds/Big Shoota
1 Rokkit Launcha (Shot by a Boy):
1 Shot = ~.3 hits.
2+ to wound = .27 Wounds/Rokkit Launcha
5+ Cover Save (Assuming the SM player is smart and still uses cover) = 0.19 Unsaved Wounds/Rokkit Launcha
ALSO, most times, youll just focus fire on the marines outside of the cover. So really giving the marine a cover save is just trying to make the rokkits look even better
a rokkit launcha will get .33 hits so they still do more damage even with giving the marines cover though in most cases you will be focus firing to make sure they dont
3 Shots = 1 Hit.
3+ to wound = ~.67 wounds
3+ Save = .2 Unsaved Wounds/Big Shoota
1 Rokkit Launcha (Shot by a Boy):
1 Shot = ~.3 hits.
2+ to wound = .27 Wounds/Rokkit Launcha
5+ Cover Save (Assuming the SM player is smart and still uses cover) = 0.19 Unsaved Wounds/Rokkit Launcha
Yaknow every time i see someone try to base the game on statistics and percentages, they lose horribly.
I go with dice over chances. Unless my chance is wicked good, i'll take the dice with bad chances instead of the 1-3 hits with meh chances. As orks, what the heck do we have thats wicked good chance side from a PK wounding something?
Yes, Rokkits can take out AV10-11 better than BS or pierce 3+, but its 1 shot with a crappy hit. And a fortune at that. I'd rather save that 40pts for me personally (4 groups of 20 boyz have been workin well for me lately) and spend it somewhere else. Its also the same reason i kind of dont like the SAG Mek, while awesome, its complete luck and unreliable.
Yaknow every time i see someone try to base the game on statistics and percentages, they lose horribly..
Honestly, that just sounds silly. I tend to find it the other way. Law of averages tends to work. Does it work always? No you always have the outlying chance given a die rolls, and I have seen many of them over the years. But playing the math tends to make your chances better then wild swings with dice.
Yes, but in this method of math hammer, we don't account for the additional chance the big shootas have of getting above average hits. You shoot three rokkits, max you get is three rokkits. 3 big shootas? Their's a whole lot of room for potential improvement.
Every time either myself or my friends rely on NOT getting that 1 on a roll for the entire game (low amount of dice, high odds of success) bad things happen. Yea, its a very low chance of utter failure, but when it happens your opponent basically just won or got a huge advantage.
loota boy wrote: Yes, but in this method of math hammer, we don't account for the additional chance the big shootas have of getting above average hits. You shoot three rokkits, max you get is three rokkits. 3 big shootas? Their's a whole lot of room for potential improvement.
Specially hen you throw a TL in the mix. Thats why I say feth rokkit koptas, and go strait bigshoota koptas. Again, AT BEST you get 5 hits. With the bigshoota blob, its 15! Ive run the scenarios MANY times over in my down time, and the bigshootas come out on top far more then the rokkits ever did. And in my army, I run planks on my trukks, so they, mixed with lootas, pop vehicles with little problem. THEN the mass of bigshootas make themselves known. Or hell, with the koptas, they can just show up and punch holes in the rear of transports.
I love my Rokkit Koptas. I like to outflank or scout them, depending on what I'm up against (sometimes with a Biker boss in the mix). My favorite joy is when I see 2 Tau Hammerheads in a corner, and my Koptas outlfank behind them. My 90 points took out 300 points of tanks in 2 turns.
i was running rokkit koptas till i realized they really werent doing anything for me outside that turn 1 vehicle popping capability. After that turn, whether i killed something or not, they lost their punch since i was always fearful of them getting plastered before doing anything.
The TL Bigshoota ones, however, can lay waste to infantry QUICK
my koptas love assaulting snipers and other shooty things hiding in the back. Especially if they're in a building with heavy weapons.
you just attack them so they have to pile in and move down a level or 2. But against guard they are really awesome as most of them need 6's to wound the koptas, my last game I sent 2 units running off the table with 1 kopta.
Plus they are denial units so you can always just hide them somewhere, then shoot them 36" to contest objectives on turn 5.
What do you guys use to take care of flyers like helldrakes? AV 12 is very annoying since my boys can't just bombard it with 40-60 shots, so I typically use my rokkit buggies to get rid of them...quite ineffectively I might add. But They're so devastating that they need to be taken care of the turn they're in before they waste the entire army, and my lootas are their primary target (and therefore dead/running)
Sinji wrote: Keep in mind that koptas are very mobile and get to scout so the they should be able to get to side or rear armour pretty quick even turn 1 is possible.
If you want to glance mech to death with TL S5 why not just run normal bikers
Great question! All through 5th I ran Rokkit Koptas and they did me just fine. Then at the start of 6th I switched over to BS's at the exact same time I started running Nob Bikers and Reg. Biker with Waz.
Why? I'm no sure but in a recent game I sent 3 BS Deffkoptas alone after a Manticore behind cover. Forgot to scout move, forgot to Turbo 24 instead of 12. Second turn I just barely am able to manuever for side armor shots with a follow up charge for a total of 2 HP reduction!
My Opp. got 3 turns to fire his Manticore whereas had I had Rokkit Koptas I could have shot them the first turn, not had to remember about scout or 24" turbo, and finish it off the 2nd!
I'm running 24 Bikers, NobBikers, and BikerBosses, why not switch my Koptas over to Rokkits? (And also remember the darn rules )
Awesomesauce wrote: What do you guys use to take care of flyers like helldrakes? AV 12 is very annoying since my boys can't just bombard it with 40-60 shots, so I typically use my rokkit buggies to get rid of them...quite ineffectively I might add. But They're so devastating that they need to be taken care of the turn they're in before they waste the entire army, and my lootas are their primary target (and therefore dead/running)
Lootas. Lots of freaking Lootas. Stuck into some kind of area terrain so that they can get a 4+ cover save.
They'll have lots of Snap Shots, sure, but D3 shots per turn multiplied by 15 Lootas for just one squad of them equals a lot of Dakka and a bad day for the flyer! Yes, they'll be targeted a lot just because your opponent will want his precious flyer intact on turn 2 when he rolls for his reserves to come in, but they are so worth it just for the priceless look of your opponent when you glance his flyer to death the moment it shows up.
Granted, this tactic would take lots of cash; but ideally, IMO, I'd take 3 squads of 15 Lootas as my 3 Elites choice (with a Warboss in command so that I could take Nobz as a Troop Choice instead of an Elite). But this would give your opponent a lot to sweat about and it's highly unlikely that he'd be able to take care of all three squads in the first two turns. But with 3 Squads of Lootas you could, conciveably, move up a squad or two while the third fired and then move the third up the next turn under the cover of the first two, running from terrain to terrain for cover saves.
Awesomesauce wrote: What do you guys use to take care of flyers like helldrakes? AV 12 is very annoying since my boys can't just bombard it with 40-60 shots, so I typically use my rokkit buggies to get rid of them...quite ineffectively I might add. But They're so devastating that they need to be taken care of the turn they're in before they waste the entire army, and my lootas are their primary target (and therefore dead/running)
Bring your own fliers. If your dakkajets come on after his hellturkeys come, they should paste them without issue.
Bring your own fliers. If your dakkajets come on after his hellturkeys come, they should paste them without issue.
my typical way of dealing with them is a waghh'd dakkajet plus the 3 buggies... I shoot for rear armor when I can with the dakka but that's not usually feasible. and with their stupid demonic 5+ they don't even need to bother jinking and it usually results with it still kickin with 1 hull point left. I only have one squad of lootas and they get roasted the second it comes in. As for multiple lootas, I'm not really a fan of spamming more than one unit of any given elite/fast/heavy (aside from transports)
RE: taking down flyers, Lootaz for sure. Now I have been playing with 2 units of 9 and they have been absolutely smashing fliers and whatever else I need to blow up.
With 2 units of 9 you have the firepower of 18, but can take on multiple targets, and if you get shot at you can go to ground since you're not fearless (don't forget that area terrain becomes 3+ cover when you go to ground).
You're snapfireing at flyers anyways.
They're easier to place when there is only 9 of them. I've never had a problem passing a LD test with them (7 being the most commonly rolled number on 2D6) and they've almost never gotten targeted since the units are so small (and I have Nob Bikers, big Boyz mobs and a BW full of Burnaz all rushing them anyways).
sirlynchmob wrote: my koptas love assaulting snipers and other shooty things hiding in the back. Especially if they're in a building with heavy weapons.
you just attack them so they have to pile in and move down a level or 2. But against guard they are really awesome as most of them need 6's to wound the koptas, my last game I sent 2 units running off the table with 1 kopta.
Plus they are denial units so you can always just hide them somewhere, then shoot them 36" to contest objectives on turn 5.
1 reason why the bikerboss is so awesome. Making most things roll 6s to wound is just brutal. The first time I used a bikerboss in 6th, I assaulted an assault squad led by a chaplain and beat the unit in 2 turns. It was just AWESOME! At first I was nervous because of the possible attacks they can pump out, buuuuut when they lose half the attacks just to hit, and needing 6s to wound, it was just awesome.
He's the best non-MCMC in the game at this point, for his ridiculously low price, mobility, survivability and offensive power you won't find anything better.
The only real issue with him is that he needs Nob Bikerz to remain survivable, but they're a close second as my favorite unit in the army. Mine roll around with the Warboss in a stupid fast death star, eating las cannon and melta shots for breakfast and pooping out power klaw attacks.
Lootas are great at Anti-Flyer make sure you run a few mobs and try and gives them distance between each other. The other is a Quadgun manned with Grots they can sit back and hold objectives and shoot away with the quad.
Sinji wrote: Lootas are great at Anti-Flyer make sure you run a few mobs and try and gives them distance between each other. The other is a Quadgun manned with Grots they can sit back and hold objectives and shoot away with the quad.
That is, of course, if you're using FW material (which requires opponent consent). I'm running a Super Heavy Kustom Battle Fortress with 2 Flakk Attack Gunz on it that's chewing up flyers with it's Skyfire and Interceptor Rules!
Sinji wrote: Lootas are great at Anti-Flyer make sure you run a few mobs and try and gives them distance between each other. The other is a Quadgun manned with Grots they can sit back and hold objectives and shoot away with the quad.
That is, of course, if you're using FW material (which requires opponent consent). I'm running a Super Heavy Kustom Battle Fortress with 2 Flakk Attack Gunz on it that's chewing up flyers with it's Skyfire and Interceptor Rules!
What book is that in? and I thought you didn't need consent anymore.
Pretty sure you still need consent because a lot of the FW stuff is insanely strong. If i was allowed to run a lifta-droppa without needing consent/fear of other FW things that are equally nasty or worse, i would because that thing basically goes "You. Die. Thank you."
SOME things i think should be normal 40k, like orky Supa Kannons to replace the lame Killkannon. I dont know how effective they are but Grot Tanks are funny and seem useful enough to at least piss something off long enough to deal with it (i dont have a rulebook for FW)
Sinji wrote: Lootas are great at Anti-Flyer make sure you run a few mobs and try and gives them distance between each other. The other is a Quadgun manned with Grots they can sit back and hold objectives and shoot away with the quad.
That is, of course, if you're using FW material (which requires opponent consent). I'm running a Super Heavy Kustom Battle Fortress with 2 Flakk Attack Gunz on it that's chewing up flyers with it's Skyfire and Interceptor Rules!
What book is that in? and I thought you didn't need consent anymore.
Of course you need consent. Even if GW would print huge posters announcing FW rules are 100% official you would need consent - simply because your opponent might not like playing against/with forgeworld rules and either refuses to play, has an unenjoyable game or will not play you in the future. When the Grey Knight codex was brand new, I saw a lot of people outright refusing to play against Grey Knight armies, a guy where I used to play apoc games even banned them from his home. And Grey Knights a lot more official than FW books.
There is absolutely no reason to tell your opponent in advance that you want to play forgeworld rules, and if he declines the game, there is nothing you can do about it. Either way, you wouldn't be allowed to bring a super-heavy to a regular game of 40k, no matter what rules you guys agree on. You can only do that in spearhead or apoc.
@Vineheart01: The lifta-droppa is overpowered no more. In Imperial Armour Apocalypse Second Edition, they changed it to requiring a 4+ to hit, making it a decent anti-tank weapon, but by no means overpowered. Unless you are refering to the stupid 10" destroyer alpha-strike in apoc - they can still do that. Actually, most 40k Stuff has been brought in line, so nothing is really overpowered anymore, not even the dreaded Landraider Achilles.
More Dakka wrote: He's the best non-MCMC in the game at this point, for his ridiculously low price, mobility, survivability and offensive power you won't find anything better.
The only real issue with him is that he needs Nob Bikerz to remain survivable, but they're a close second as my favorite unit in the army. Mine roll around with the Warboss in a stupid fast death star, eating las cannon and melta shots for breakfast and pooping out power klaw attacks.
I would like to second this statement. I have been using the Biker Boss in every game since 6th dropped (And nerfed my beloved Kanwall) and he is the single most effective model I have ever used. I run him in 5-6 ork Nob biker deathstars, with 3-5 Big Shoota Koptas, Solo LOS-ing behind Battle Wagon Konvoy, and even just straight up the center with nothing but his 4+ smoke cloud. He has never disappointed me. Not once.
Also, I scratch built him, so there is a huge sense of personal investment when he kicks somethings ass.
Yeah basically says since zogwort is bs 0 he cannot use any of the powers that require bs, and he doesn't get a free reroll so he can get something he can actually use.
So basically gw gave old zogwort the finger, as if the poor old git didn't need it anyways.
The only other thing that really affects us is the bcan only kill whats in range" thing. It means that a well spread unit of boyz can never be wiped by a squad of flamers for example, because the flamers can't kill the guys in the back. This could be a very good change for orks.
MrMoustaffa wrote: Yeah basically says since zogwort is bs 0 he cannot use any of the powers that require bs, and he doesn't get a free reroll so he can get something he can actually use.
So basically gw gave old zogwort the finger, as if the poor old git didn't need it anyways.
The only other thing that really affects us is the bcan only kill whats in range" thing. It means that a well spread unit of boyz can never be wiped by a squad of flamers for example, because the flamers can't kill the guys in the back. This could be a very good change for orks.
That 'rule clarification' put out by GW makes no sense whatsoever. Old Zog can roll on the Wierdboy table, he's a Warphead that may re-roll the dice to see which psychic power he uses, but he can't re roll if the result is Frazzle or Zzap??? WTF??? Not to mention that the wording of the question pretty much implies that he now cannot officially use Frazzle or Zzap regardless of the autohit ability! Geez... Thanks GW for making our beloved Ork even more nerfed than ever before. Seriously, why the hell is Old Zog called "the greatest wierdboy ever" if he can't even do 33% of the standard Wierdboy abilities!?!?!?
"Q: When making a Shooting attack against a unit, can Wounds from the Wound Pool be allocated to models that were not within range any of the shooting models when To Hit rolls were made (i.e. half the targeted model are in the shooting models’ range, and half are not)? (p15) A: No."
So, am I reading this right? We can only kill stuff that's in range of our weapons when we are removing wounds?
virx67 wrote: "Q: When making a Shooting attack against a unit, can Wounds
from the Wound Pool be allocated to models that were not within
range any of the shooting models when To Hit rolls were made (i.e. half the targeted model are in the shooting models’ range, and half
are not)? (p15)
A: No."
So, am I reading this right? We can only kill stuff that's in range of our weapons when we are removing wounds?
check the rules section, its up to 6 pages now but it's looking like its a unit ability, so you can remove wounds from models up to the maximum distance your weapon has. so a mob of 20 shoota boys with a big shoota, all within 18" of just 1 model, can wound everyone in the enemy unit up to 36" away because of the big shoota. Give it a few days to settle down and everyone should have a good consensus.
Yeah, just found that thread and have been reading through the whole thing. They could have worded it a little better, though. Burna wagons are still viable if you upgrade one to a mek.
virx67 wrote: Yeah, just found that thread and have been reading through the whole thing. They could have worded it a little better, though.
Basically what it means is that in order to use things like burna boys and flamers without being useless, something with a long range weapon will need to be with them. Which means that In order for you to use those units without them being terrible, you have to "game" the system. Which feels really dirty to me. Get ready to see lots of tournament lists taking a token long range weapon though to ensure their weapons can actually kill things though.
Burnas will need a token mek with a big shoota.
A Shoota boy mob will need a token big shoota to double its killing range.
A guard blob will always take heavy weapons (as if they didn't anyways) to ensure they can kill things up to 48" away.
Sternguard with combiflamers will take a token heavy bolter or something so their flamers will be able to kill things further than 8" away, etc.
It's sad because the intent behind the rule is very good and would make the game a lot less abstract. The problem is the way it's worded doesn't really change much.
i think i just realized something about trukk ramshackle i never knew...
was reading the new FAQ and saw this. I think it was there before i just didnt notice it:
Q: If I roll a Kaboom! result on the Ramshackle table, is the Trukk
removed and replaced with a similar sized area of difficult terrain after
any surviving passengers have disembarked? (p41)
A: Yes.
We still get to disembark? As in the full 6 inches? blehh....been screwin that over
Also:
Q. If a Trukk suffers a ‘Kareen!’ result, what happens if the random
movement forces it into friendly models or off the table? (p41)
A. The vehicle stops as soon as it comes into contact with
friendly models or the table’s edge.
Also, did anyone else notice the whole "Reinforced Ram adds +2 to the Front Armour of a vehicle being hit by Death or Glory"? really nice, and makes Trukk or Looted Wagons a bit more viable as troop delivery systems, especially considering only models in the path of the ram/tank shock can attempt Death or Glory.
Take a Looted Wagon to transport things, Tank Shock through the edge of an enemy unit (avoiding the Powerfist or whatever in it) and laugh at the attempts to wound your new AV14 (or 13, or 12 or whatever).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
KingCracker wrote: Just ignore the FAQ. Some rules are just too fething stupid. Example,
Do markerlight hits count towards grounding tests for FMC?
yes.
Really? How exactly does a little non damaging laser pointer cause a 6 ton flying monster to crash into the fething ground?!
File that one under "ignore"
Your momma never told you not to point laser pointers in the air? "You'll blind some poor pilot, and the plane'll crash!"
Vineheart01 wrote: i think i just realized something about trukk ramshackle i never knew...
Q. If a Trukk suffers a ‘Kareen!’ result, what happens if the random
movement forces it into friendly models or off the table? (p41)
A. The vehicle stops as soon as it comes into contact with
friendly models or the table’s edge.
Not enemy models? Can i tankshock with this?
No, the Ramshackle rule tells you to stop 1" away from the enemy models
Vineheart01 wrote: i think i just realized something about trukk ramshackle i never knew...
was reading the new FAQ and saw this. I think it was there before i just didnt notice it:
Q: If I roll a Kaboom! result on the Ramshackle table, is the Trukk
removed and replaced with a similar sized area of difficult terrain after
any surviving passengers have disembarked? (p41)
A: Yes.
We still get to disembark? As in the full 6 inches? blehh....been screwin that over
Yup. Trukks are open topped so the Boyz just hop on out and keep movin' while theTrukk goes boom! I've been using that to my advantage a lot, esp. with all of my Trukks having the Red Paint Job!
Yeah, unfortunately you still got to take the hits. Ah well. At least with a vehicle explosion it's AP nil so even your most basic Boyz get their save.
Anvildude wrote: Also, did anyone else notice the whole "Reinforced Ram adds +2 to the Front Armour of a vehicle being hit by Death or Glory"? really nice, and makes Trukk or Looted Wagons a bit more viable as troop delivery systems, especially considering only models in the path of the ram/tank shock can attempt Death or Glory.
Take a Looted Wagon to transport things, Tank Shock through the edge of an enemy unit (avoiding the Powerfist or whatever in it) and laugh at the attempts to wound your new AV14 (or 13, or 12 or whatever).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
KingCracker wrote: Just ignore the FAQ. Some rules are just too fething stupid. Example,
Do markerlight hits count towards grounding tests for FMC?
yes.
Really? How exactly does a little non damaging laser pointer cause a 6 ton flying monster to crash into the fething ground?!
File that one under "ignore"
Your momma never told you not to point laser pointers in the air? "You'll blind some poor pilot, and the plane'll crash!"
Actually, my brother is a pilot and he told me that laser pointers are now considered weapons in Australia, because some airheads kept attempting to crash planes which were in landing approach with them. It actually does work.
I don't think a greater daemon of Khrone cares about permanent damage to his eyesight though - especially consindering Axe of Blind Fury.
Vineheart01 wrote: i think i just realized something about trukk ramshackle i never knew...
Q. If a Trukk suffers a ‘Kareen!’ result, what happens if the random
movement forces it into friendly models or off the table? (p41)
A. The vehicle stops as soon as it comes into contact with
friendly models or the table’s edge.
Not enemy models? Can i tankshock with this?
No, the Ramshackle rule tells you to stop 1" away from the enemy models
Me and my friends house rule that a trukk w/ a ram can tank shock off a kareen. To keep it even they also TS friendlies.
I live in Australia and its true you can get booked for having laser pointers. People over here get board very easy and have very low attention spans so I'm not supprised someobe tried to down a plane with one.
We like a population of Orks with slightly higher IQ's and no Waaagh!!! Abilities
First time i heard of that laserpointer thing was when my friend got his hands on one of those horrifically powerful green laser pointers that makes a beam of green even in daylight - it had half of the body engulfed in a massive label saying DO NOT POINT AT AIRPLANES PUNISHABLE BY FEDERAL LAW - couldnt help but laugh till i found that was a legit issue.
So wait in Australia you get hammered for even having one? Oooo that would drive me crazy, i use them all the time both for teasin the cats, legitimately pointing at something, or checking line of sight in 40k games
When sitting on a plane about to land I very much want my pilots to be undisturbed and concentrated on the landing. No matter how automated landings are nowadays.
Back to topic.
I have a ton of problems dealing with two vindicators. They shoot up my battlewagons (with KFF) pretty good and once those are opened up my orks die like crazy. Any ideas apart from 5 TLR-deffkoptas? My lootas (2x8 mobs) are usually busy shooting at other stuff. :/
ADL Quad with Grots is nasty. Its 140pts for an intercepting, 4 TL shots with pretty good punching power. Slap a SAG behind that (make sure he isnt part of the grots or you might accidentally screw your SAG over for a turn) and its now even more of a threatening position.
My issue with it is the damn rules for deploying battlements. Technically, they count as terrain and are placed BEFORE terrain - which is stupid on 2 accounts:
1) ADL is a strategic position your boss claimed is worthy of enforcing. Why the hell would he put that behind a massive building that your opponent can place infront of it following normal rules?
2) Tournaments tend to play with pre-built terrain tables...so how do you use these fortifications now? Per rules, you cant since the terrain is already down.
Because of #2, my friends typically just say you deploy with your battlements even if we set the terrain up normally (except our necron player, cuz hes kinda WAAC even though we play friendly..thankfully hes on opposite shifts to me now so i wont see him most the time lol). Even if it covers half the board, its one gun....big whoop....
What I suggested to my friend who uses the ADL in every game. Shape it like a big "m" then put the gun on the middle leg. this will keep other terrain further back from the gun keeping a bigger field of fire.
MrMoustaffa wrote: That 'rule clarification' put out by GW makes no sense whatsoever. Old Zog can roll on the Wierdboy table, he's a Warphead that may re-roll the dice to see which psychic power he uses, but he can't re roll if the result is Frazzle or Zzap??? WTF??? Not to mention that the wording of the question pretty much implies that he now cannot officially use Frazzle or Zzap regardless of the autohit ability! Geez... Thanks GW for making our beloved Ork even more nerfed than ever before. Seriously, why the hell is Old Zog called "the greatest wierdboy ever" if he can't even do 33% of the standard Wierdboy abilities!?!?!?
Write to GW and let's fill their inbox with our complaints. It's stupid for a "autohit" power to be unusable with a BS of 0.
MrMoustaffa wrote: That 'rule clarification' put out by GW makes no sense whatsoever. Old Zog can roll on the Wierdboy table, he's a Warphead that may re-roll the dice to see which psychic power he uses, but he can't re roll if the result is Frazzle or Zzap??? WTF??? Not to mention that the wording of the question pretty much implies that he now cannot officially use Frazzle or Zzap regardless of the autohit ability! Geez... Thanks GW for making our beloved Ork even more nerfed than ever before. Seriously, why the hell is Old Zog called "the greatest wierdboy ever" if he can't even do 33% of the standard Wierdboy abilities!?!?!?
Write to GW and let's fill their inbox with our complaints. It's stupid for a "autohit" power to be unusable with a BS of 0.
Gamefaqs@gwplc.com
Yeah, I did that yesterday and got the standard "Thanks for your feedback, we'll consider it for the next FAQ release" response from them.
Thankfully, our Game Store Ref has already ruled that Old Zog can use AutoHit powers, so Zog's going to be heading up my army on Sunday.
Someone should write up a form letter we can all send in.
Something intelligent and succinct.
Do that, add the best email addresses to send it to, and let us rip!
I have: KFF Mek, Warboss 5x Lootas 2x 30 man Choppa boyz, 3x Big Shootas, Nob w/ PK + BP 2x 30 man Shoota boyz, 3x Big Shootas, Nob w/ PK + BP 10x Grots 3x Deffkoptas
I'm thinking of adding another loota squad or two, and a squad of nob bikers with a biker warboss and maybe a few looted wagons for fun. Not really sure where to go from there. Mech is something that I will do eventually, but not for a little while. I know that the Kan Wall that I proxied in 5th is dead, but how well do they serve as firing platforms with either Grotzookas or Big Shootas?
I have:
KFF Mek, Warboss
5x Lootas
2x 30 man Choppa boyz, 3x Big Shootas, Nob w/ PK + BP 2x 30 man Shoota boyz, 3x Big Shootas, Nob w/ PK + BP 10x Grots
3x Deffkoptas
I'm thinking of adding another loota squad or two, and a squad of nob bikers with a biker warboss. Not really sure where to go from there. Mech is something that I will do eventually, but not for a little while. I know that the Kan Wall that I proxied in 5th is dead, but how well do they serve as firing platforms with either Grotzookas or Big Shootas?
More lootas and shoota boys. the kans are really squishy now, I'm thinking big guns with lobbas myself, 48" range T7 2 wound models with T7 grots to soak up some wounds, sounds more durable than a armor 11 walker.
Lootas are insane. Ive been running at least 20 of them every game with great success. They either plaster incoming hordes of units, or snipe off small-medium vehicles at a distance every time. Also great anti air. Ive yet to have a group of 10+ lootas fail to take out any flier thats not AV12 on the first try. AV12 tends to take a turn or two.
Anyone had much luck with Snikrot? I'm thinking of using him with a decked out Kommandos squad.
Snikrot + a loaded up Kommandos squad, 2 squads of 3 Deffkoptas with Big Shootas all outflanking. 6 nob Bikers + warboss, Battlewagon full of burnas, Battlewagon full of Lootas, and a dakkajet charging downfield. And 40 boys chilling in back field for objectives. I think that's some decent target saturation and a very in your face list.
will if the boys are just chillin in the back, I hope your running them in 4 squads of 10. But for added fun, put the warboss with the deff koptas so he can outflank with them.
but just one battle wagon? I think you'd be better off just putting the lootas in some terrain.
I have:
KFF Mek, Warboss
5x Lootas
2x 30 man Choppa boyz, 3x Big Shootas, Nob w/ PK + BP 2x 30 man Shoota boyz, 3x Big Shootas, Nob w/ PK + BP 10x Grots
3x Deffkoptas
I'm thinking of adding another loota squad or two, and a squad of nob bikers with a biker warboss. Not really sure where to go from there. Mech is something that I will do eventually, but not for a little while. I know that the Kan Wall that I proxied in 5th is dead, but how well do they serve as firing platforms with either Grotzookas or Big Shootas?
More lootas and shoota boys. the kans are really squishy now, I'm thinking big guns with lobbas myself, 48" range T7 2 wound models with T7 grots to soak up some wounds, sounds more durable than a armor 11 walker.
That, or just straight Kannons so that you can have your option of Krak or Frag shells each time you fire for a situational weapon.
Fast Attack: Rokkit Deffkopta Rokkit Deffkopta Rokkit Deffkopta
Heavy: 1x Kannon 1x Kannon 1x Kannon
Hits 2000 pts exactly. Probably not the absolute best list out there, but it goes off of what I already have and should be a fairly decent TAC list. Now I just need to make some purchases, and then paint all 200+ models lol.
i take it the Zagstruk group is designed to take out a random artillery if its around that could punch holes in your trukk line just by looking at them? like a Basilisk or something?
All those trukks are just wasted chance to smoke some heavy vehicles. Planks on em is more important then a ram. Then those PK on the inside get to do bad things to good people. 4 STR9 attacks on a vehicle? Yes please.
I've never used boarding planks before. It seemed like it would be too easy to wreck a trukk that's trying to play tag with your Manticore before it got there. I only take rams because I love immobilizing myself apparently.
Youve got a BW with a deffrolla, those are scary. And a crap load of trukks, that can all move 24inches a turn. Something will survive and tare a whole in some tanks. Planks now, are far more useful then a ram on a trukk. BW, maybe not so much (because of the rolla), but definitely a trukk.
Fast Attack:
Rokkit Deffkopta
Rokkit Deffkopta
Rokkit Deffkopta
Heavy:
1x Kannon
1x Kannon
1x Kannon
Hits 2000 pts exactly. Probably not the absolute best list out there, but it goes off of what I already have and should be a fairly decent TAC list. Now I just need to make some purchases, and then paint all 200+ models lol.
Don't let me rain on your parade, but I'm going to suggest you back off the green tide for now, and run a few less boyz. Mostly because you're going to really dislike moving all those models and trying to deal with all the complications that terrain is going to give you.
Try running 90 to start with, and see how that feels. If you don't mind it, add 30 more and try again.
Also, Orks have a lot of other viable builds that are a lot of fun and bring combined arms to the table. Don't discount those.
I have more fun recently because my playstyle is different than what it has been, but I feel like I'm not quite as competitive. 
es they roll with the 
it really is necessar since in 6ed every man and his dog can pick a Big Mek out of a 30+ man unit of Orks Boyz
in the 4ed codex we got 
Looted Wagons " the most over priced 
That 'rule clarification' put out by 
I've been using that to my advantage a lot, esp. with all of my Trukks having the Red Paint Job!
