Sigvatr wrote:

Kangodo wrote:
I was thinking of that too.
But then I decided that it would be weird to have a Necron-looking model that is 'Come the Apocalypse' and has to deploy away from them.
I'm fairly sure that using Necron-models would make me forget that every single battle.

Just gotta make it look more distinct

I would totally take a anti-Psyker assassin though. Just because!

I think the standard cryptek model would be a boss model for that.

Great idea, that could really work out. I also thought about using a converted Zahndrekh with the reached-out arm replaced / rearranged with a sniper weapon, head turned around etc., maybe bend the knees a bit.

I love that the Assassins seem to Fit Necrons so well. They seem to have great Synergy with us. It's kinda like GW Said, before we nerf them, lets let them have a fun new toy! HAHA!

But seriously Culexus and Vindicare, I like both. They fit my play style and it seem Culexus *REALLY* fills a whole that we dont have in Psychic defense. Or am I over reading his rules?

Alas, you are not. Culexus assassins look like they are finally giving us a purpose for generating warp charge...

Nope. Culexus fits quite well in a Necron army. I'd take him over another NS.

Kangodo wrote:
3W on T4 with 4++ and BS1.
You would need 72 Bolter-shots to take him down. That are 108 if you hide him somewhere with 3+ cover.
Anything with S8 would need 14.4 shots against his 4++ or 21.6 if you can use 3+ cover.

The 'funny' part is that Annihilation Barges are actually quite good against him.
Two of them can (statistically) take him down in one turn of shooting.
But most armies don't have Tesla and Twin-linked on 90-point units.
And we wouldn't even care about him.

His biggest fear would probably be 'bad dice'.
And if you infiltrate him you have to make sure that your opponent won't charge him in his first turn, that could be dangerous too.
You always want the charge.
You want to walk in, shoot 4-5 S5, AP1-shots and then you want to assault them with Culexus.
That would cause so much problems for your opponent that the rest of your army can probably walk in safely and do their thing.

And what Galorian said, this guy is scared to death of Tesla Destructors.
Two of them will put out 3.06 wounds because we don't care about his 4++ and we hardly care about the BS1.

Pretty ironic really. We have the best weapons to defeat them, and the least to fear from them.

Shane a lot of tournaments don't allow for Come the Apocalypse allies then!

They don't? Wtf?
I thought they could be added to any list for any game, so long as you followed the one eye open rule?

Just like you can go Unbound, or take LoW's or take any number of Detachments. Some TO's ban all of that!
I've even heard of tournaments where you had a maximum amount of flyers you could field.

Those lists to see what a tournament allows can sometimes be as thick as an entire Codex :/

A lot of tournaments are stuck in 6th edition attitudes. They'll gradually change, because they have to follow where the casual game leads them.

If not the disconnect between tournament and normal play will become too great. Tournaments would feel like playing a homebrew game instead of 40k.

Weirdly it's the larger, better known tournaments (not the GTs) that are more often strange like that with dataslates allies and such.

For instance, my local has the only rule of not unbound, anything else goes.

I find it strange that tournaments would dictate that sort of stuff at all, regardless if scale.

I'll be honest I run a tournament and one of the comps I have included this year is no come the apocalypse allies, because we are one of the first tournaments in my area to do a full 7th edition event and there is already a lot of new stuff to break people into, it's all about finding a balance between gameplay and ticket sales.

Does anyone have a link to the leaked rules for the assassins? Or are the data slates out now? I have some cool ideas for converted Deathmarks to include them in my army.

The book is out. And my local does the weird rules thing too.

I can't help but feel the Callidus or would be an excellent addition to a Necron army. The fact you can use its infiltrate or uber outflanking to put early or mid game pressure on back field/less maneuverable units seems like a good idea. Coupling them with Catacomb Command Barges, deepstriking stormteks, and you create a decent amount of pressure. 2+ or 3+ units ttucked away into a vehicle? Drop the stormtek down, blow it up and then template it with the Callidus. Obviously, this is easier said than done, but I feel like it gives us some additional immediate pressure we didn't really have before.

I'm having a heck of a time beating my friend's Necron list at 1500 ...

Necrons 1500

Overlord - Warscythe - Mindshackle Scarabs - Sempiternal Weave - Phase Shifter - Catacomb Command Barge - Tesla Cannon 255
2x Harbinger of the Storm - 2 Voltaic Staff - 1 Lightning Field 60
3x 5 Warriors - Night Scythe - TL Tesla Destructors 495
8 Warriors - Ghost Arc - Gauss Flayers 219
2x 1 Tomb Blade - TL Tesla Carbine 40
5 Canoptek Scarbs 75
2x Annihilation Barge- Tesla Cannon - TL Tesla Destructor 180
Doom Scythe - Death Ray - TL Tesla Destructor 175

I play Orks and DE usually and lost my first four games against it. Neither had the weaopns to handle it ( btw my Ork list has lootas and a dakkajet but that was not near enough to handle this list). I finally saw him lose against an LoW daemon list ( and that was a very close game). He encountered this ...

Zarakynel LOW
Herald of Tzeentch Lvl 3 Greater Reward
Herald of Tzeentch Lvl 3 Greater Reward
14 Daemonettes
14 Daemonettes
10 Horrors
10 Horrors
Soul Grinder of Slaanesh

With no psychic defense the daemon player cast what he needed when he needed it. It was the game difference.

That said the three units that really hurt me against him are these in this order ...

1. Doomsday Ark - I don't see this being mentioned all that much in the tournament lists. His Scythe has won him a slew of games coming in from the board edge - so hard to hit and deal with.

2. Barge Lord - Well with the new rules we know he is powerful so we will not go there.

3. His warriors with stormteks - Against some lists it is not the biggest threat on the table but against my DE it takes out a transport a turn with ease. Very annoying and not that easy too handle for DE.

I find the AV13 wall that Necrons can field at 1500 very intimidating. It is a very much a 'rock, paper, scissors' match up aganst my Orks and DE. I would have to tailor lists to handle him ( which I never do). At tournament you go with your best TaC list - my best /taC lists cannot handle that.

Any TAC list should be blowing up a Doomsday Ark early in the game, or at least threaten it enough to make it move and ruin the main gun.

If they were often allowed to sit at the back and fire all day long then I'm sure everyone would bring them.

And my apologies - of course I meant doom scythe not doomsday ark - as you can see I play against Necrons not with them. I need 6's to hit ... it can jink ... it can destroy my vehicles. It just does damage way above its cost.

If it jinks then it cannot fire the death ray, so keep it jinking if you struggle to kill it. You should be able to kill it though, especially orks which aren't badly affected by having to snapshot. It's a lot of points for quite a vulnerable unit, which is why you don't see them much competitively.

It seems easy but with four scythescoming in and flying off they do a lot of damage very quickly. The doomscythe flies on fires flies off and does it again. It easily makes its points back. It is bacj up to that nasty ghost ark squad

Wait, I thought there was some RAW loophole that allowed the Deathray to fire even if the Doom Scythe had jinked?
(had something to do with how Deathray weapons get around certain restrictions, eg. can hit invisible units)

It works against Invisibility because you don't target the unit, you simply draw a line.
But if you can truly only Snap Shot, as with Jink, then you can't use Weapons that do not target.

Edit: Just want to mention that the first day of Apocalypse was a success.
Pinpoint Deep Striking Monoliths in their base and then having a T-C'tan rushing out of it is awesome.

But oh God, can I mention that the High Court of Damnos-formation is just pure awesomeness?
You shot half of my Immortals? Don't care. They have fear.
You shoot at my Warriors with AP4? They are behind a wall and have Stealth.
Ooh, trying to kill the High Court? How do you like some 3++ with rerolls!
And did I read it right that they give an additional Strategic Asset during a break ánd an All-out Attack every turn?

It's because they don't target.

 skoffs wrote:
Wait, I thought there was some RAW loophole that allowed the Deathray to fire even if the Doom Scythe had jinked?
(had something to do with how Deathray weapons get around certain restrictions, eg. can hit invisible units)

You can hit a unit that can only be targeted with snapshots as long as the line passes over the model.
You cannot fire it at all if the flyer itself is forced to snapshot by jinking or crew shaken result etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 felixcat wrote:

It seems easy but with four scythescoming in and flying off they do a lot of damage very quickly. The doomscythe flies on fires flies off and does it again. It easily makes its points back. It is bacj up to that nasty ghost ark squad

Yeah you need lots of AA against flyer spam, no way around it. Lootas and a dakkajet are not going to be enough vs 4 flyers.

Do all Necron troops need some sort of transport to be effective these days, or can they still be made to work on foot?

As long as you don't face armies with a lot of Barrage, or you invest in ResLords to walk with them

Eldercaveman wrote:
Do all Necron troops need some sort of transport to be effective these days, or can they still be made to work on foot?

You can camp them in cover near an objective and they'll be fine. Otherwise they need a VoD or vehicle. Theircost, save and survivability in combat keeps necron troops at the lower tier of troop choices. However, the real success of transports, is ghost arks being Obj. sec.

Even then, if you're running Warrior Phalanx/Silver Tide, it's better to have a Ghost Ark accompany them.

One clever way to move blobs without vehicles is to slingshot them with Obyron and Zahndrekh (Z and a Veil-tek (and maybe Storm-teks, if you want to be useful) Veil in near a vehicle, but still far enough away as to avoid scatter/mishap. Then Obyron pinpoint inserts his blob 6" away from Z and lay waste to anything within rapid fire range).

I've been dying to try that tactic for many months, does it actually work?

Ohhh yes... but I'm not really sure if it's worth it.
Z & O are pretty expensive together.
Might just be better to spend those points on an airforce. (two planes full of Warriors will accomplish the same thing for the same price).
I guess the difference would be timing, in that you can use the Veil/Ghostwalk from turn one.

The problem is also with the placement of the two. Z has to be on the outside edge of a squad, but the real power is O bringing a huge 20 or so man squad with his to bring massive rapid fire power to bear. But the 6" placement makes it difficult to deep stike that pin point accurate squad where you then have to wrap all those models around O. It's a ton of points that just ends up being inefficient. I've found it better to move around squads of wraiths more so than massive amounts of warriors.

 NecronLord3 wrote:
But the 6" placement makes it difficult to deep stike that pin point accurate squad where you then have to wrap all those models around O.

Just an FYI: you don't need to have Obyron at the center. You can just have a Warrior at the center, wrap everyone around him, and have Obyron on the edge, 6" away from Zahndrekh (who is also on the edge of his group).

Glad to see I'm not the only Necron player who was highly interested in the Assassins. I've been using Flayed Ones for whichever one I'm using in a game or a converted Cryptek for the Vindicare.

I love the Culexus for us. Gives us something to do in Psychic Phase, and the anti-Psyker ability that we horridly lack. Sadly, as others have said, I've had issues getting him across the board. Outflanking is nice, but unreliable, and Infiltrate might not be feasible or might take several turns to even reach the target if they're actively avoiding you.

Cally seems like a relatively decent fit. Her super-Infiltrate/Outflank means we basically don't have to worry about CtA. I like how her AP2 template sorta synergizes with Despairtek/Deathmark combos as well, we can throw out a lot of no-Armor Save templates on the board, which could potentially make some armies very scared. Also, if you really like gimmicks, pair her with Imotekh and have a rerollable 4+ Seize.

I'm iffy about the Vindicare. Overall, I don't think his one-shot deal isn't that great for his price, but strong single shots are something we don't have a lot of in our book. Again, don't need to worry about CtA because you put him in his "sniper's nest" and then leave him there while everything moves around him.

Eversor is whatever. He's cool and what not but I don't particularly like him and we have better assault options in our army.

 skoffs wrote:

 NecronLord3 wrote:
But the 6" placement makes it difficult to deep stike that pin point accurate squad where you then have to wrap all those models around O.

Just an FYI: you don't need to have Obyron at the center. You can just have a Warrior at the center, wrap everyone around him, and have Obyron on the edge, 6" away from Zahndrekh (who is also on the edge of his group).

That isn't how DS works.

I just had an idea! Take the Culexus and put him in a ghost ark! Ingenious!


Automatically Appended Next Post:


Oh, wait. Never mind. He can't embark in it.

 jy2 wrote:
I just had an idea! Take the Culexus and put him in a ghost ark! Ingenious!


Automatically Appended Next Post:


Oh, wait. Never mind. He can't embark in it.

The ghost ark is such an amazing transport... but nothing that can ride it can take advantage of its awesome save for overpriced royal courts.

 NecronLord3 wrote:

 skoffs wrote:

 NecronLord3 wrote:
But the 6" placement makes it difficult to deep stike that pin point accurate squad where you then have to wrap all those models around O.

Just an FYI: you don't need to have Obyron at the center. You can just have a Warrior at the center, wrap everyone around him, and have Obyron on the edge, 6" away from Zahndrekh (who is also on the edge of his group).

That isn't how DS works.

?
I don't see anything there that would disagree with my above assertion on how to effectively use Obyron and Zahndrekh.
Which part are you saying doesn't work?

 skoffs wrote:

 NecronLord3 wrote:

 skoffs wrote:

 NecronLord3 wrote:
But the 6" placement makes it difficult to deep stike that pin point accurate squad where you then have to wrap all those models around O.

Just an FYI: you don't need to have Obyron at the center. You can just have a Warrior at the center, wrap everyone around him, and have Obyron on the edge, 6" away from Zahndrekh (who is also on the edge of his group).

That isn't how DS works.

?

Spoiler:

Arriving by Deep Strike
• First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position where you would like it to arrive, and roll for scatter to determine the model’s final position. If a vehicle scatters when arriving via Deep Strike, do not change its facing – it must continue to face the same direction as it did before you rolled for scatter.
• Next, the unit’s remaining models are arranged around the first one. Models must be placed in base contact with the first model and begin to form a circle around it. When the first circle is complete, a further concentric circle must be placed with each model touching the circle inside it. Each circle must include as many models as will fit.

I don't see anything there that would disagree with my above assertion on how to effectively use Obyron and Zahndrekh.
Which part are you saying doesn't work?

Well, I guess it depends on interpretation.

1) Deploy Obyron's entire squad as if they Deep Struck without Scatter. If Obyron is within 6" of Zahndrekh, they do not scatter. It does not matter if Obyron was the initial central model or not.
2) Deploy Obyron as the central model of his squad as if he was about to Deep Strike. If he is within 6" of Zahndrekh, don't roll to scatter and deploy his squad around him. If he is further away, roll to scatter. If you place a Warrior as your central model, you roll to Deep Strike as normal.

The RAW would seem to support #2, as the BRB says nothing about deploying the entire squad before rolling to scatter. But I suppose it's open to how your group agrees.

I'd say Oby has to be the middle one

Requizen wrote:

 skoffs wrote:

 NecronLord3 wrote:

 skoffs wrote:

 NecronLord3 wrote:
But the 6" placement makes it difficult to deep stike that pin point accurate squad where you then have to wrap all those models around O.

Just an FYI: you don't need to have Obyron at the center. You can just have a Warrior at the center, wrap everyone around him, and have Obyron on the edge, 6" away from Zahndrekh (who is also on the edge of his group).

That isn't how DS works.

?

Spoiler:

Arriving by Deep Strike
• First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position where you would like it to arrive, and roll for scatter to determine the model’s final position. If a vehicle scatters when arriving via Deep Strike, do not change its facing – it must continue to face the same direction as it did before you rolled for scatter.
• Next, the unit’s remaining models are arranged around the first one. Models must be placed in base contact with the first model and begin to form a circle around it. When the first circle is complete, a further concentric circle must be placed with each model touching the circle inside it. Each circle must include as many models as will fit.

I don't see anything there that would disagree with my above assertion on how to effectively use Obyron and Zahndrekh.
Which part are you saying doesn't work?

Well, I guess it depends on interpretation.

1) Deploy Obyron's entire squad as if they Deep Struck without Scatter. If Obyron is within 6" of Zahndrekh, they do not scatter. It does not matter if Obyron was the initial central model or not.
2) Deploy Obyron as the central model of his squad as if he was about to Deep Strike. If he is within 6" of Zahndrekh, don't roll to scatter and deploy his squad around him. If he is further away, roll to scatter. If you place a Warrior as your central model, you roll to Deep Strike as normal.

The RAW would seem to support #2, as the BRB says nothing about deploying the entire squad before rolling to scatter. But I suppose it's open to how your group agrees.

I play it as #2.

 jy2 wrote:

Requizen wrote:

 skoffs wrote:

 NecronLord3 wrote:

 skoffs wrote:

 NecronLord3 wrote:
But the 6" placement makes it difficult to deep stike that pin point accurate squad where you then have to wrap all those models around O.

Just an FYI: you don't need to have Obyron at the center. You can just have a Warrior at the center, wrap everyone around him, and have Obyron on the edge, 6" away from Zahndrekh (who is also on the edge of his group).

That isn't how DS works.

?

Spoiler:

Arriving by Deep Strike
• First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position where you would like it to arrive, and roll for scatter to determine the model’s final position. If a vehicle scatters when arriving via Deep Strike, do not change its facing – it must continue to face the same direction as it did before you rolled for scatter.
• Next, the unit’s remaining models are arranged around the first one. Models must be placed in base contact with the first model and begin to form a circle around it. When the first circle is complete, a further concentric circle must be placed with each model touching the circle inside it. Each circle must include as many models as will fit.

I don't see anything there that would disagree with my above assertion on how to effectively use Obyron and Zahndrekh.
Which part are you saying doesn't work?

Well, I guess it depends on interpretation.

1) Deploy Obyron's entire squad as if they Deep Struck without Scatter. If Obyron is within 6" of Zahndrekh, they do not scatter. It does not matter if Obyron was the initial central model or not.
2) Deploy Obyron as the central model of his squad as if he was about to Deep Strike. If he is within 6" of Zahndrekh, don't roll to scatter and deploy his squad around him. If he is further away, roll to scatter. If you place a Warrior as your central model, you roll to Deep Strike as normal.

The RAW would seem to support #2, as the BRB says nothing about deploying the entire squad before rolling to scatter. But I suppose it's open to how your group agrees.

I play it as #2.

This depends on whether or not placing a warrior model within 6" of Zandrekh satisfies the requirement for the wargear of "aims to arrive" since there can be a difference between aiming and actually arriving and the aiming of the effect does not depend on Obyron being placed first. The Necron codex should mandate that Obyron's model is placed first since the BRB allows you to use any model from the unit for initial placement. But it doesn't mandate that Obyron be placed first. So in the case where you put a warrior model within 6" of Zandrekh you find yourself in an unclear situation since the wargear has been effectively aimed and Obyron could legitimately arrive within 6" but once we are at the point of actually placing the rest of the unit, Obyron could be placed more than 6" away.

Anyway, just pointing out the issue is a bit more complex. #2 seems like a decent HYWPI but it's not exactly RAW. There's more holes in the RAW.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
This list placed 16 at Nova. It's an interesting list and worthy of discussion.

HQ1: Overlord - CCB, 2+/3++, Warscythe, Tesseract Labyrinth (Warlord)
HQ2: Overlord - CCB, 2+/3++, Warscythe, Tesseract Labyrinth

Royal Court 1: 2x Stormteks
Royal Court 2: 2x Stormteks

Troop 1: 5x Warriors, Night Scythe
Troop 2: 5x Warriors, Night Scythe
Troop 3: 5x Warriors, Night Scythe
Troop 4: 5x Warriors, Night Scythe

Fast 1: 10x Scarabs
Fast 2: 6x Scarabs

Heavy 1: 3x Spyders
Heavy 2: 3x Spyders

#######

The odd things about this list are the absence of Ghost Arks and A Barges., the presence of a medium sized scarab farm, and the use of Tesseract Labyrinth as a silver bullet for Wraithknights (with some splash damage on nonWKs).

This list is looking to take advantage of the meta's overall high amount of AT fire, and low AA fire.

I have found scarabs to be really good in 7th. They were especially good at NOVA presumably with all of the LOS blocking terrain.

I am surprised that they seems to be doing much better overall than wraiths in 7th.

The Tesseract Labyrinth on a bargeLord is interesting. One way of looking at it is that it shores up a hole in the bargeLords armor. Anything in the WK category which previously could eat a bargeLord is now going to die hard.

What are the other decent targets for Tesseract Labyrinth? How narrow of a silver bullet is this?

 skoffs wrote:

 NecronLord3 wrote:

 skoffs wrote:

 NecronLord3 wrote:
But the 6" placement makes it difficult to deep stike that pin point accurate squad where you then have to wrap all those models around O.

Just an FYI: you don't need to have Obyron at the center. You can just have a Warrior at the center, wrap everyone around him, and have Obyron on the edge, 6" away from Zahndrekh (who is also on the edge of his group).

That isn't how DS works.

?

Spoiler:

Arriving by Deep Strike
• First, place one model from the unit anywhere on the table, in the position where you would like it to arrive, and roll for scatter to determine the model’s final position. If a vehicle scatters when arriving via Deep Strike, do not change its facing – it must continue to face the same direction as it did before you rolled for scatter.
• Next, the unit’s remaining models are arranged around the first one. Models must be placed in base contact with the first model and begin to form a circle around it. When the first circle is complete, a further concentric circle must be placed with each model touching the circle inside it. Each circle must include as many models as will fit.

I don't see anything there that would disagree with my above assertion on how to effectively use Obyron and Zahndrekh.
Which part are you saying doesn't work?

You always place one model, roll to scatter than place remaing models around that model. Obyron has to be the model that "aims to arrive" within 6" of Zahndrek to satisfy the no scatter requirement. The rule is not for his unit, they simply benefit from moving with him.

Fair enough.
Only good for units of around ten to be able to use the Vargards Duty rule.

Big tournament here is allowing Lords of War up to 490pts. Been thinking of putting a Tesseract Vault (cosmic fire, sky of falling stars) on a Skyshield (for 4++) with Spyders with Fabricator Claws and a load of scarabs to bubble wrap and for the Spyders to spawn onto. Sound like fun?

Kholzerino wrote:
Big tournament here is allowing Lords of War up to 490pts. Been thinking of putting a Tesseract Vault (cosmic fire, sky of falling stars) on a Skyshield (for 4++) with Spyders with Fabricator Claws and a load of scarabs to bubble wrap and for the Spyders to spawn onto. Sound like fun?

TVault seems weak with that load out. Does the mission really support just forming a big giant costly deathstar and lobbing s6 stuff? It's probably tactically superior just to run extra LOW hate (stormTeks and deathmarks) and bank on the efficiency of the rest of your army to score and win the game once you neutralize their LOW with 50 points of stormTek.

col_impact wrote:

This list placed 16 at Nova. It's an interesting list and worthy of discussion.

HQ1: Overlord - CCB, 2+/3++, Warscythe, Tesseract Labyrinth (Warlord)
HQ2: Overlord - CCB, 2+/3++, Warscythe, Tesseract Labyrinth

Royal Court 1: 2x Stormteks
Royal Court 2: 2x Stormteks

Troop 1: 5x Warriors, Night Scythe
Troop 2: 5x Warriors, Night Scythe
Troop 3: 5x Warriors, Night Scythe
Troop 4: 5x Warriors, Night Scythe

Fast 1: 10x Scarabs
Fast 2: 6x Scarabs

Heavy 1: 3x Spyders
Heavy 2: 3x Spyders

#######

The odd things about this list are the absence of Ghost Arks and A Barges., the presence of a medium sized scarab farm, and the use of Tesseract Labyrinth as a silver bullet for Wraithknights (with some splash damage on nonWKs).

This list is looking to take advantage of the meta's overall high amount of AT fire, and low AA fire.

I have found scarabs to be really good in 7th. They were especially good at NOVA presumably with all of the LOS blocking terrain.

I am surprised that they seems to be doing much better overall than wraiths in 7th.

The Tesseract Labyrinth on a bargeLord is interesting. One way of looking at it is that it shores up a hole in the bargeLords armor. Anything in the WK category which previously could eat a bargeLord is now going to die hard.

What are the other decent targets for Tesseract Labyrinth? How narrow of a silver bullet is this?

I've never used a Tesseract Labyrinth before, but it makes sense to bring now. Why? Challenges changed. No longer is your Overlord only in base contact with the character you challenge, so good luck getting off MSS for the guaranteed win. But the Labyrinth specifically states to choose a Character/MC/FMC in base contact, so you can snipe things out with it.

Against MCs, who are pretty decent at killing the CCB, take off a couple wounds with Sweep attacks + HoW and then Labyrinth what's left. Or take off wounds in the first turn of combat, and then if you survive until the next turn, Labyrinth and remove it. If you bring the MC to 3 wounds, it has an as good or better chance of dying to this than to MSS + your attacks.

I went to Nova and stupidly ran a CronAir list (my initial list was 2 wraith wings+DL with a mini scarab farm+3 spiders some abarges, etc). The terrain in the center really killed me most of the time. It wasn't serious LOS blocker it was complete LOS blocker. People would hide behind the wall and watch me spend two turns trying to wrap around to get shots on target. Ugghhh.

I saw that #8 was a necron player named Aaron Aleong. I'd love to know what his list consisted of - if anyone knows please post it!

 necron99 wrote:
I saw that #8 was a necron player named Aaron Aleong. I'd love to know what his list consisted of - if anyone knows please post it!

http://imgur.com/a/jgRXG

According to this, he came in 4th with a Necron/Ork list.

[transcribed for the lazy]:

Overlord (WS, SW, PS, MSS, CCB) - 255
Destroyer Lord (WS, SW, MSS) - 160

5 Warriors (NS) - 165
5 Warriors (NS) - 165
5 Warriors (NS) - 165

6 Wraiths (1x WC) - 220

5 Meganobz (Trukk) - 240
5 Meganobz (Trukk) - 240
5 Meganobz (Trukk) - 240

Hi there I have just acquired a necron battleforce (for free!) and I am pretty passionate about making the metal skellies my next army. My question is ,which names character would you recommend as most viable for 7th?? I realise most named characters are gak but if you had to choose one?? Im leaning towards Trazyn personally but thats mainly because by gaming buddy absolutely loves his green tide formation, and it would be hilarious to kill 50 or so orks from one round of attacks

Welcome! For a named character, Zandhrek all the way. His special rules are excellent and used properly can really help.

Zahndrekh, hands down.
Trazyn lost the best thing going for him once 7th dropped and he wasn't updated to have Objective Secured.

 skoffs wrote:

 necron99 wrote:
I saw that #8 was a necron player named Aaron Aleong. I'd love to know what his list consisted of - if anyone knows please post it!

http://imgur.com/a/jgRXG

According to this, he came in 4th with a Necron/Ork list.

[transcribed for the lazy]:

Overlord (WS, SW, PS, MSS, CCB) - 255
Destroyer Lord (WS, SW, MSS) - 160

5 Warriors (NS) - 165
5 Warriors (NS) - 165
5 Warriors (NS) - 165

6 Wraiths (1x WC) - 220

5 Meganobz (Trukk) - 240
5 Meganobz (Trukk) - 240
5 Meganobz (Trukk) - 240

The Fearless on that Ork formation is sick. In fact this Ork formation seems really good overall. Those guys in Trukks are the Lychguard Necrons always wanted. Seems like a lot of armies could auto-include this. Good find.

It's odd though. It seems he didn't pay full price for the boarding planks on the trukks. They are 15 points where he paid 10. I wonder If it was the auditing program he used that made the beneficial mistake.

Interesting that its another list with zero A Barges and zero Ghost Arks. Looks like it was beneficial to take anything off the list that could get hit with the Wave Serpent hate.

Well I have just read through zandrekhs rules and yes I can see why he is held in high regard. Next question. Clearly annihilation barges are the way to go in HS, but what of the elites? Fast attack im fond of the idea of scarabs and wraiths unless I am missing something?

In my opinion these are the best choices for each slot:
HQ: Overlord (with CCB) or D-Lord (If you take Wraiths)
Elite: Deathmarks
Troops: Warriors
Dedicated Transport: Night Scythe, although Ghost Arks are really close.
Fast Attack: Wraiths
Heavy Support: Annihilation Barge

Though the last tournament-lists played something entirely different.
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/4th-Overall-Aaron-Aleong-Nova-Open-2014.pdf
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/16th-Overall-Werner-Born-Nova-Open-2014.pdf
Aaron had no Barges.
Werner went without Barges or Wraiths.
I wonder why they made those decisions.

Barges can easily give up first blood. Especially when armies are geared toward taking down a Knight Titan. Wraiths are generally to expensive for one squad in the current meta. Allies probably did what each player wanted better and for a cheaper price.

col_impact wrote:

Interesting that its another list with zero A Barges and zero Ghost Arks. Looks like it was beneficial to take anything off the list that could get hit with the Wave Serpent hate.

Kangodo wrote:


Though the last tournament-lists played something entirely different.
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/4th-Overall-Aaron-Aleong-Nova-Open-2014.pdf
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/16th-Overall-Werner-Born-Nova-Open-2014.pdf
Aaron had no Barges.
Werner went without Barges or Wraiths.
I wonder why they made those decisions.

No, it wasn't that. It was because of the Nova terrain and format. Nova included huge LOS blockers in/near the middle, just perfect for a fast assault-based army to hide, especially those who wanted board control/control of the middle, and I believe their missions allowed you to accumulate points by holding objectives each turn. Basically, Nova terrains helped out assault armies and nerfed shooty ones, unless they were mobile shooty ones (like mechdar). I supposed this was done to encourage people to take assault builds and not just shooty armies in an otherwise shooty 7th Edition.

 jy2 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Interesting that its another list with zero A Barges and zero Ghost Arks. Looks like it was beneficial to take anything off the list that could get hit with the Wave Serpent hate.

Kangodo wrote:


Though the last tournament-lists played something entirely different.
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/4th-Overall-Aaron-Aleong-Nova-Open-2014.pdf
http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/16th-Overall-Werner-Born-Nova-Open-2014.pdf
Aaron had no Barges.
Werner went without Barges or Wraiths.
I wonder why they made those decisions.

No, it wasn't that. It was because of the Nova terrain and format. Nova included huge LOS blockers in/near the middle, just perfect for a fast assault-based army to hide, especially those who wanted board control/control of the middle, and I believe their missions allowed you to accumulate points by holding objectives each turn. Basically, Nova terrains helped out assault armies and nerfed shooty ones, unless they were mobile shooty ones (like mechdar). I supposed this was done to encourage people to take assault builds and not just shooty armies in an otherwise shooty 7th Edition.

Good observations. I think key abilities for Nova were Ignore Cover and Move Through Cover.

One question is why Ork Meganobs over in-house Wraiths? It's interesting to ponder that Wraiths come up short vs. Ork Meganobs, especially since Wraiths are often touted around as one of the best CC deals around. They are very comparable in power level at initial glance. I imagine Trukks are a distinct advantage for the Meganobs since they can hang around post delivery and secure objectives. Also, power claws are a bit better than Wraiths CC attacks. Morevoer, if the environment was a bit shy on ap2 attacks then the Meganobs were more survivable than Wraiths as well.

col_impact wrote:
Those guys in Trukks are the Lychguard Necrons always wanted.

Maybe next codex...

I'd love to see Tomb Blades become the third troop choice personally. Obsec T5 jetbikes? Hells yeah.

I can see Destroyer Bodies being an upgrade for Overlords again, and for that choice to make destroyers Troops a la SM bikers

Back to tactic discussion,

So how about them Destroyer squads, then?
I'm trying to decide which would be a better use of 200 points to drop into my opponent's backfield to cause havoc/distraction:
• 5 Destroyers (Pro: super effective against MEQ. Con: super vulnerable)
• 2x 5 Deathmarks (Pro: super effective against high T. Con: also pretty vulnerable)
• 1 Monolith (Pro: more survivable than the other options. Con: not very killy)

That would depend on what your opponent fields:
MC's: Death Marks.
Marines: Destroyers.
Nothing: Monolith. Because it will misshap if the opponent plays stuff.

Ooh, even though it was Apocalypse I found something where Lychguard really shine: Assaulting multiple Vehicles at the same time!
Is anyone interested in a short description of how most units worked out over those two days?

Death and Despair squad

 Sigvatr wrote:
Death and Despair squad

Yes, but a D&D squad is over 200 points if you stick it in a Night Scythe (like every good 'Cron player should).

Kangodo wrote:
That would depend on what your opponent fields:
MC's: Death Marks.
Marines: Destroyers.
Nothing: Monolith. Because it will misshap if the opponent plays stuff.

Ooh, even though it was Apocalypse I found something where Lychguard really shine: Assaulting multiple Vehicles at the same time!
Is anyone interested in a short description of how most units worked out over those two days?

Yes please.

 skoffs wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Death and Despair squad

Yes, but a D&D squad is over 200 points if you stick it in a Night Scythe (like every good 'Cron player should).

VoD o/

Hey fellow Phaerons. Having a big game against my 40k Nemesis. I have actually never beaten him (after over ten games) and we are going to play a huge game (5,000pts) at Warhammer World on one of the special tables. Should be great fun, but I would LOVE to finally beat him.

Here is my list:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/613973.page#7181364

Using Immo for Phaeron on the PylonStar and the Lightning feels worth it at this pints level (he's going to bring at least 10 tactical squads / grey hunter units). And Zandrekh for deep striking the wraiths whenhe pods in. The callidus is to reroll my seize on 4+ with Immo and for buffs/debuffs. I suspect I probably need more troops and to lose some HQ or specialised unit.

He's going to bring melta in pods, a Legion Fellblade (probably on a skyshield) , probably a unit of grav centurions in a drop pod with a Psycher maybe, and some kind of close combat deathstar thing that he won't tell me about yet. The table is going to be loads of multi level ruins.

Help me pull this one off for the silver tide.

Kholzerino wrote:
Hey fellow Phaerons. Having a big game against my 40k Nemesis. I have actually never beaten him (after over ten games) and we are going to play a huge game (5,000pts) at Warhammer World on one of the special tables. Should be great fun, but I would LOVE to finally beat him.

Here is my list:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/613973.page#7181364

Using Immo for Phaeron on the PylonStar and the Lightning feels worth it at this pints level (he's going to bring at least 10 tactical squads / grey hunter units). And Zandrekh for deep striking the wraiths whenhe pods in. The callidus is to reroll my seize on 4+ with Immo and for buffs/debuffs. I suspect I probably need more troops and to lose some HQ or specialised unit.

He's going to bring melta in pods, a Legion Fellblade (probably on a skyshield) , probably a unit of grav centurions in a drop pod with a Psycher maybe, and some kind of close combat deathstar thing that he won't tell me about yet. The table is going to be loads of multi level ruins.

Help me pull this one off for the silver tide.

Pair a chronotek with Immo to keep the lightning strikes going. Keep in mind Callidus is hit by Immo as well. With nightfighting you probably want a ton of skimmers that can jink and get the 3+ save and tons of stuff to take full advantage of the 3+ in the ruins.

Zandrekh is a bit of a liability in PylonStar. If he is assaulted that removes Obyron from the Star to join Zandrekh. He might still be worth it but just watch out for that vulnerability.

You might consider starting the PylonStar in reserves so you aren't the perfect target for Drop Pod assault. You want the Pylon Star to make its points the turn it comes down.

An ADL with a comms for re-rollable reserves is a cheap include that goes up in value the more stuff that is in reserves.

Watch out if he includes any orks (and that meganob formation is really really good) then it shuts off Immo's seize the initiative.

col_impact wrote:
Pair a chronotek with Immo to keep the lightning strikes going

A Chrono-tek won't be able to join the Sentry Pylons, so if he's planning on having Imotekh as the Phaeron for the deathstar, that won't work.

Zandrekh is a bit of a liability in PylonStar. If he is assaulted that removes Obyron from the Star to join Zandrekh. He might still be worth it but just watch out for that vulnerability.

Just stick Zahndrekh in something that can't be assaulted, maybe?

You might consider starting the PylonStar in reserves so you aren't the perfect target for Drop Pod assault. You want the Pylon Star to make its points the turn it comes down.

But you really want to get the Alpha Strike on your opponent with this thing, so it tends to be better to start it on the table so Obyron can get them where they need to go if you get first turn (assuming you can seize).

Watch out if he includes any orks (and that meganob formation is really really good) then it shuts off Immo's seize the initiative.

Can't remember, is that for any force that includes Orks, or just for armies whose primary are Orks?

 skoffs wrote:

col_impact wrote:
You might consider starting the PylonStar in reserves so you aren't the perfect target for Drop Pod assault. You want the Pylon Star to make its points the turn it comes down.

But you really want to get the Alpha Strike on your opponent with this thing, so it tends to be better to start it on the table so Obyron can get them where they need to go if you get first turn (assuming you can seize).

If I was the opponent, I would reserve everything and use drop pod assault. Makes going first a whole lot less potent for the Necron player and insures you get first crack at stuff.

Fair enough
Rule of thumb for Sentry-Star: if they reserve, you reserve. If they deploy, you deploy.
(if possible, obviously)

Kholzerino wrote:
Yes please.

Well, I played with Necrons and Black Templars against Tau, Eldar, Grey Knights and Imperial Guard.
The list was this:


Some really interesting things happened.
The Deep Strike Strategic Asset is really good, perhaps even overpowered.
It allowed me to Deep Strike two Monoliths, 10 Death Marks, the Court of the Flayer King (20 Flayed Ones) and teleport Obyron to the front.
And that in the middle of way too many Eldar, Tau and Astra Militarium (3 SHV's).

That meant I could also use the Monolith's gate to get my Transcendent C'tan in their base, where it used his flamer to wreck tanks and his 6D6 (with Zhandrekh's Tank Hunter) to nearly kill of a Shadowsword.
Next turn they managed to kill it with Eldar Guardians (or something) that wound on a 6. But I forgot to use Feel No Pain on my C'tan.
Not that it really mattered, because he exploded 17" in all directions which really, really hurt their armies a lot.

The awesome stuff:

The bad:

 skoffs wrote:
Fair enough
Rule of thumb for Sentry-Star: if they reserve, you reserve. If they deploy, you deploy.
(if possible, obviously)

The game is probably going to be won or lost in deployment. The key is to set up an alpha strike that eliminates the enemy LoW or DeathStar and ride the point differential to the win from there.

Drop pods are brutally good at setting up an alpha strike. However, Zandrekh with phased reinforcements can be used to great effect to keep up with the drop pods and counter deploy for early survival. You probably want to bring the Tranny Ctan into play from reserves on the opponents turn after all drop pod deployment has been revealed via Dimensional Corridor a la Necron Monolith (that you phased reinforcement into play) to ensure he can survive a turn to bring the pain and earn his points early. He will be target #1 and he is very vulnerable to a centurion strike so you want his one to two turns in play to be super juicy.

Grav guns are great vs LoW and Necrons in general so expect a good opponent to bring those against you. Scarabs are really survivable vs grav guns so you want to force scarabs into CC vs grav gun units.

A key thing to keep in mind is that Zandrekh can have his phased reinforcement ability trigger at the very end of all of the opponent's drop pods resolving and you can bring in any number of deep strike units in response. So if the opponent deploys nothing at game start you will probably rely on a minimal deployment with Zandrekh hidden out of LOS and respond reactively to how the opponent commits with his Drop Pod Assault, but it is key that you get to respond at the very end of his drop pod assault. Also Necron Monoliths are key to "cheat" units into play via phased reinforcements and Dimensional Corridor (which triggers on opponent turn) that don't intrinsically have deep strike (like Tranny) and Monoliths are good for blocking LOS which is key for early survival vs opposing LoW.

So I think Kholzerino is going to have to really study deployment and turn one and analyze his options so that he comes out ahead in the super important early punch. He should probably adjust his list to include at least a couple of Necron Monoliths since at this point level they have their critical uses.

Requizen wrote:

I've never used a Tesseract Labyrinth before, but it makes sense to bring now. Why? Challenges changed. No longer is your Overlord only in base contact with the character you challenge, so good luck getting off MSS for the guaranteed win. But the Labyrinth specifically states to choose a Character/MC/FMC in base contact, so you can snipe things out with it.

Against MCs, who are pretty decent at killing the CCB, take off a couple wounds with Sweep attacks + HoW and then Labyrinth what's left. Or take off wounds in the first turn of combat, and then if you survive until the next turn, Labyrinth and remove it. If you bring the MC to 3 wounds, it has an as good or better chance of dying to this than to MSS + your attacks.

That's some serious cheese there, thanks GW for going crazy on the chariot rules (chariot allocate, d6 HoW, I10 HoW).
But what are the chances that the WK would let itself be caught ?
You've mostly created a situation where the opposing player will try to avoid the bargelord.
Or just melta it down I guess.
Or take the charge to your overlord, who will have to tank the wounds because the barge can't, AND BOOM HEADSHOT ! Instant death explodes you die goddamn necron I hate you !

Still a bit risky to get in there with a WK, since invisibility can't help. WTF necrons. you broke the game again.

col_impact wrote:

 skoffs wrote:
Fair enough
Rule of thumb for Sentry-Star: if they reserve, you reserve. If they deploy, you deploy.
(if possible, obviously)

The game is probably going to be won or lost in deployment. The key is to set up an alpha strike that eliminates the enemy LoW or DeathStar and ride the point differential to the win from there.

Drop pods are brutally good at setting up an alpha strike. However, Zandrekh with phased reinforcements can be used to great effect to keep up with the drop pods and counter deploy for early survival. You probably want to bring the Tranny Ctan into play from reserves on the opponents turn after all drop pod deployment has been revealed via Dimensional Corridor a la Necron Monolith (that you phased reinforcement into play) to ensure he can survive a turn to bring the pain and earn his points early. He will be target #1 and he is very vulnerable to a centurion strike so you want his one to two turns in play to be super juicy.

Grav guns are great vs LoW and Necrons in general so expect a good opponent to bring those against you. Scarabs are really survivable vs grav guns so you want to force scarabs into CC vs grav gun units.

A key thing to keep in mind is that Zandrekh can have his phased reinforcement ability trigger at the very end of all of the opponent's drop pods resolving and you can bring in any number of deep strike units in response. So if the opponent deploys nothing at game start you will probably rely on a minimal deployment with Zandrekh hidden out of LOS and respond reactively to how the opponent commits with his Drop Pod Assault, but it is key that you get to respond at the very end of his drop pod assault. Also Necron Monoliths are key to "cheat" units into play via phased reinforcements and Dimensional Corridor (which triggers on opponent turn) that don't intrinsically have deep strike (like Tranny) and Monoliths are good for blocking LOS which is key for early survival vs opposing LoW.

So I think Kholzerino is going to have to really study deployment and turn one and analyze his options so that he comes out ahead in the super important early punch. He should probably adjust his list to include at least a couple of Necron Monoliths since at this point level they have their critical uses.

This is really useful. As is all the other advice. Don't currently have a monolith! But I might borrow one for this game. You are saying that during the phased reinforcements section, I can both deep strike the monolith (I get it) AND drag in the tranny C'Tanny from reserve with it?!?! How does this work?

Think you are dead right on deployment. Games are usually own or lost there, but doubly so here

http://www.blacklibrary.com/Downloads/Product/PDF/Warhammer-40k/7th-faq/Necrons_v1.0_May14.pdf

"Note that a Monolith can use its dimensional corridor on a turn that it deploys by Deep Strike."
And the dimensional corridor can 'disembark' units out of Reserve.
Remember that he cannot make a charge the turn you walk him out of that portal!

I'm not sure if he can move or use his Transliminal Stride if he comes out of the Monolith.
But I think that Seismic Shockwave is his best ability since you can Stomp models that are not in combat.

But if I bring him in using phased reinforcements he is coming in on the opponents turn, so should be able to move and/or attack the following (my) turn.

This is great. I have now bought a monolith....

I don't think they intent to let the C'tan come out during your opponent's turn.
The move is still treated as disembarking, which can only be done in your own turn.

Kangodo wrote:
I don't think they intent to let the C'tan come out during your opponent's turn.
The move is still treated as disembarking, which can only be done in your own turn.

Zandrekh starts the chain of permission going with the deep strike happening in the opponent's movement phase. Everything from there is triggered and is legit if happening in a movement phase. The Tranny only gets the disembark move that keeps him 6" from the dimensional corridor.

Need some genral thoughts on running spiders and scarabs, I'm thinking of adding one spyder into my heavy slot alongside my two Annilhation Barges, for repairs and producing scoring units.

Is it worth buying Scarabs on their own or should I just rely on production? And does anyone have the maths for how many bases on average I could get through in a game?

If your spyder doesn't get killed you'll generally produce 5 scarabs a game, since it's only a 1/6 chance you'll fail to produce. However a spyder costs 50pts and you have to spend at least 4 turns just to make back that cost in scarabs. The power is in bringing scarabs beyond their max strength of 10 bases and that ability also allows you to put one base 2" ahead of the rest of the unit to increase your charge range each time one is created. The Spyder effectively only works as a support model for the scarabs or an additional scoring unit now thanks to 7th.

 NecronLord3 wrote:
If your spyder doesn't get killed you'll generally produce 5 scarabs a game, since it's only a 1/6 chance you'll fail to produce. However a spyder costs 50pts and you have to spend at least 4 turns just to make back that cost in scarabs. The power is in bringing scarabs beyond their max strength of 10 bases and that ability also allows you to put one base 2" ahead of the rest of the unit to increase your charge range each time one is created. The Spyder effectively only works as a support model for the scarabs or an additional scoring unit now thanks to 7th.

Spyders never fail to create, even if they take a wound they still place the base.

Eldercaveman wrote:
Need some genral thoughts on running spiders and scarabs, I'm thinking of adding one spyder into my heavy slot alongside my two Annilhation Barges, for repairs and producing scoring units.

Is it worth buying Scarabs on their own or should I just rely on production? And does anyone have the maths for how many bases on average I could get through in a game?

Spyders can only add to existing units. I usually run 2 spyders with 5 or 6 bases of scarabs. Keep them hidden for a turn or two and then unleash the fury. lol

Requizen wrote:

 NecronLord3 wrote:
If your spyder doesn't get killed you'll generally produce 5 scarabs a game, since it's only a 1/6 chance you'll fail to produce. However a spyder costs 50pts and you have to spend at least 4 turns just to make back that cost in scarabs. The power is in bringing scarabs beyond their max strength of 10 bases and that ability also allows you to put one base 2" ahead of the rest of the unit to increase your charge range each time one is created. The Spyder effectively only works as a support model for the scarabs or an additional scoring unit now thanks to 7th.

Spyders never fail to create, even if they take a wound they still place the base.

Good to know, I thought you lost the scarab with the one. Only recent started running one regularly in my army. So the odds of producing scarabs are 100%, it's just a matter of keeping your Spyders alive and in range to add to an existing swarm.

Possible newbie here with a question about the basics: Are Warriors better than Immortals or vice versa, if one isn't going for Nightscythe spam? I might be looking at a Necron force but I'm not sure what to really look at getting to start, and going heavy Cron-air won't make friends or make the wallet happy.

This might be the most boring answer ever, but it really depends on the list you want to play.
In a 'silver tide' I think it's a good idea to mix them up.
In some other lists I want to spend as little as possible on troops, so I'd take Warriors.
And I've also made lists where I prefer Immortals.

My opinion is that Immortals are slightly overpriced for what they do and I usually only bring them if I want troops with Tesla.

I run exclusively Warriors, and have found that when in units of ten with a ResOrb lord, they give impressive bang:buck ratio and can be a rather large pain to get rid of

The tactic is more evil to run two such units on foot, and two such units in flyers, and play a hammer and anvil tactic with a portion of the enemy army

 IHateNids wrote:
I run exclusively Warriors, and have found that when in units of ten with a ResOrb lord, they give impressive bang:buck ratio and can be a rather large pain to get rid of

The tactic is more evil to run two such units on foot, and two such units in flyers, and play a hammer and anvil tactic with a portion of the enemy army

Taking 5 extra warriors instead is objectively much better then taking a Lord w/ Rez Orb by a huge margin. Its literally a 50% increase in damage and survivability as apposed to just increasing reanimation protocol by 16% and a very negligible damage boost.

I think someone ran the numbers on that.
It was something like ResOrbs are only worth taking for units of Warriors 15+. For anything less, it's normally better just to add more Warriors.

The 'numbers' are quite easy.
It's a 30 point upgrade for 16% more durability.
16% of 15 Warriors is slightly above 30 points, so it's worth it.

There are a lot of other factors, but that is a general rule of thumb if you plan to include a Lord anyway.

So i've been thinking of a tactic i like to call sliding door and wanna know what you guys think, i'm sure someone has thought about this tac before

warriorsx9
ghost ark (this group has zhandrek or w/e)

warriorx10
Ghost ark

warriorsx20 (overlord w/res orb optional but not needed)
Ghost ark


What you do is have the unit of 20 warriors boxed on either side with the two ghost arks with warriors in them and have their ghost ark near their front during the movement phase and then "slide" over in front of the 20warriors during the shooting phase but after the 20 warriors have shot to give them a cover save. With zhandrek you can give the warriors stealth if you think they will be shot at or one of the GA to improve their jink. You don't really care to much about blast on the squad either since you will be returning 3-9 a turn from repairs.

may not be the best strat or cheapest but thought it could be something new to try in my next friendly game.

The general rule of thumb on a res orb is if the unit cost is 200 points or more it generally becomes worth it. Less then that you probably want to go another direction unless you have other reasons for bring the Lord.

Of course, in the case of Immortals, you can reasonably add it to a group of 10 as you can't make that unit any bigger.

If you're planning on playing with a lot of skimmers/flyers (eg. AV13 wall), it may be worth considering a Pulse-tek, as he'll give your entire army Stealth for a turn, instead of just a single unit.
Having every one of your vehicles jinking on a 3+ is well worth the 55 points.

I tried the tactic VS a SM player who used IA12 mortarium(sp?) tactics with a imperialknight errant(melta) a unit with 3 pulse/plasma cannons(small blast that acted that plasma sorry don't know much outside of my SOB and necron army), a "not-landraider but might as well be an assault land-raider" with a unit of 10 termies with TS/ss and his WL, and a group of marines with some grav weapons another unit with las cannons and some other unit that didn't do anything

I ran a monolith, 2 full deathmark groups c'tan shard, triarch stalker and the 9/20/10 groups of warriors with ghost arks.


Skipping the battle report because this isn't the place for it but wanted to give an idea of the battlefield. ( i like fun list and the guy seemed to be more of a out to win player, wouldn't put him as a WAAC but doesn't take 'bad choices' i would guess)

my 20 warriors with two ghost arks left tied up his unit of ts/ss + w/l with some spear ofr 6 ap 2 or some such from urn 3 to turn 5.Overwatch took out 2 and after shooting from other turns took out 3 more so 5+wl got locked up. my warriors clawed and scratched and the ghost arks (only had 2 for one turn so from then on 1) kept poping out warriors keeping them tied up for a bit longer. But ts/ss+WL did finish going through them by the end of 5.

I do feel an overlord kitting out would have been wonderful to have in there and a pulse-tek would have been lovely as well for a couple shooting phases.


In short it did well but could have been better with the overlord and pulse-tek.

Speaking of pulse-tek is gaze of flame a god idea for 10pts for the warrior group?

If you can spare the points and have somewhere to stick him, ten points for Gaze of Flame is definitely worth it... it's just, most people don't take it because their Destruct-teks tend to be inside the Ghost Ark.

Can I ask why you took the C'tan Shard, though?
Most people know to avoid it because it's one of the worst units in the Necron codex. Did you have a specific idea in mind for it? (and did that idea work out in the game?)

I took the c'tan shard because it is such a wild card that people don't expect at my local gw the t7 lets it shrug off a lot of small arms fire just a little more then t6 can i4 lets it equal a lot of other cc in terms of when it can attack and s7 ap2 attacks put a bunch of troops to bed. I use it as a big rattlesnake for the opponent to shoot at and to duke it out with melee problems. In that game i got lucky with an 11" charge and tied up the imperial knight for two or three turns before it went down. As for powers normally i give it the T.thunderbolt to be able to poke at things with a las cannon and the other power being pyreshards,gaze of death, or even entropic touch since smash got nerfed to only 1 attack and not half and just one success on ES lets him damage even av14.

I don't aim to get him in combat but i do bait out the opponent into doing stuff to it before it strikes back. A couple of times i even put it on an ADL quad gun to use that bs5.


I see as the c'tan shard as a tool that needs careful planning and thought to be used right and not just something you "point and click" with. I feel it IS overcosted and could either use points reduction, a bump in the armor save, or make some of the powers stronger.


Edit: yeah i could take 3 spyders and have 5 more wounds that will stall longer then the c'tan's 4 but i feel the spyders can be far more useful repairing vehicles screening shots for them and making scarabs. The c'tan has a better chance to fight back not just turtle.

I think the reason the C'tan Shard isn't taken by the majority of players is because it's A) too expensive for what it does, B) far too slow and vulnerable, and C) compared to other options in the codex, just not a very good choice (even more so when stacked up next to its MC contemporaries from other codexes: Wraithknight, Riptide, Flyrant, Daemon Princes, even the Dreadknight. All of these outshine the Shard in almost every way).
Long story short, there are much better options available.

Luckily it sounds like your opponent wasn't playing very competitively.

Yeah i'm thankful for a very relaxed for fun mindset players. I do agree the c'tan is way to expensive, to slow, needs a better save or FNP if it only has a 4+ armor. Here's hoping for some point adjustment for 7th or bump in power.


What is everyone's views of the Tesseract Ark (from FW). I think it is a very powerful model but it looks like bleh imo. And what would one equip it with? the two tesla cannons or two gauss cannons?

Every time bring a Shard, I wonder why I didn't just bring 3 Spyders instead. A slightly worse statline for more than double the wounds, potentially better shooting, and utility options.

As much as I love the C'Tan lore- and modelwise, I usually regret putting it on the table 9 times out of 10. The only time it's worked "well" for me is with Swarm of Spirit Dust and Writhing Worldscape on boards with lots of cover and terrain, where it can get a 3+ cover and screw up enemy movement.

Its shooting abilities are pretty weak other than the lascannon shot, but if you use that then you lose the ability to run, which he kind of needs to get to many armies. Is he going to absorb a huge number of shots? Sure, T7 on a big, scary model will do that. But even regular S4 guns can wound on 6s, and a 4++ isn't going to hold out forever.

So things I learned this week:

A single three man grav centurion unit can easily kill a full squad of Sentry Pylons in a single turn of shooting.

I may have had a good chance to kill them first, but Coateaz and scatter were not my friends. :-(

Hard counter. Didn't get to shoot once.

So then what's the best counter to invisible Grav-Cent-Star?
Doom Scythes?
If they weren't invisible, I guess Deathmarks might be okay.

Kholzerino wrote:
So things I learned this week:

A single three man grav centurion unit can easily kill a full squad of Sentry Pylons in a single turn of shooting.

I may have had a good chance to kill them first, but Coateaz and scatter were not my friends. :-(

Hard counter. Didn't get to shoot once.

Make sure to analyze what happened. What could you have done differently to take the game? Did you deploy appropriately and in correct response to how your opponent deployed?

With that many points, the initial hits often generate enough momentum to win the whole game. His wiping your 900 point pylon star was brutal and possibly the winning play of the whole match. It's key that the pylon star unit recoups points when it hits the table. Was there a less risky play available? The pylon star is a silly powerful cannon but it's nonetheless a glass cannon. Still, with Tranny C'tan you have a lot of power on the table and the capacity to recoup. How did Tranny play out? Did (s)he make her points?

It's certainly possible that the final analysis leads you to conclude that the 900 points invested in pylon star is better invested in 900 points of deathmarks and stormteks in night scythes. Night scythes are really really good in apocalypse, empowering the necron player with a platform of survivability for the units inside.

One nifty Apocalypse combo is a Vindicare Assassin on a Bastion with a quad gun. Basically you can choose to use the quad gun with skyfire or intercept (to nail incoming drop pod units) or step away and use the vindicare standard attack with maximim LOS.

I didn't actually lose. I drew, and should have probably won (tiredness - game took five hours to get to the bottom of turn five and I forgot to shoot with an annihilation barge - the successful killing of one space marine would have put him off the relic and I'd have won 15-0!). The Tranny C'Tanny and the Pylons themselves did absolutely nothing in the game. But I did very well in the secondary and managed to kill his warlord with Deathmark/Despairtek overwatch to win the tertiary for a draw. 10-10

Anyone interested in a more drawn out report? And yes, I did a lot of thinking afterwards about what I could have done differently...

Kholzerino wrote:
I didn't actually lose. I drew, and should have probably won (tiredness - game took five hours to get to the bottom of turn five and I forgot to shoot with an annihilation barge - the successful killing of one space marine would have put him off the relic and I'd have won 15-0!). The Tranny C'Tanny and the Pylons themselves did absolutely nothing in the game. But I did very well in the secondary and managed to kill his warlord with Deathmark/Despairtek overwatch to win the tertiary for a draw. 10-10

Anyone interested in a more drawn out report? And yes, I did a lot of thinking afterwards about what I could have done differently...

I am interested in a more drawn out report. The Tranny C'Tan should have been able to do something. (S)he is after all the best LoW in the game. I load Tranny out with the Transliminal Stride/Seismic Assault/Withering which combines mobility with AA, AT, and AI. I am curious how (s)he actually did nothing. In the games I have played with her she always managed a huge dent in the enemy forces before going down to a massively committed and focused fire. Of course each game is different and she could have been stomped in her tracks in your bout.

Nightscythes are so good and so survivable in Apocalypse I am curious if you think the points in Tranny and Pylon Star would have been better spent in multiple NS cavalry squads (deathmark and stormteks). One approach to Apocalypse is to eschew LoW and deathstars altogether for uber-potent MSU and Necrons have some of the best MSU in the game with MSU in NS.

Also interested in a full report, but maybe not posted here in the tactics thread.
(just give us a link to the post on the battle reports board?)

Kholzerino wrote:
So things I learned this week:

A single three man grav centurion unit can easily kill a full squad of Sentry Pylons in a single turn of shooting.

I may have had a good chance to kill them first, but Coateaz and scatter were not my friends. :-(

Hard counter. Didn't get to shoot once.

It's not really a hard counter if the only reason you didn't kill them before they shot you is a bad scatter. In a drop pod they might be a hard counter.

Which Warlord trait chart do you guys tend to go for, I've been using Strategic, but thats more out of habit from my other armies, and I've been finding a lot of them not very useful.

I've used those in IA12 for the most part... they are all quite good for the Necrons, albeit not in all instances.

Other than that, strategic do serve quite well, depending on your play style of course.

If running Destroyer Lords, I tend to favor Personal traits.

CCB lords too...

Yeah I run 2 CCB lords, and I used personal for the first time yesterday making my lord fearless and have IWND, which was really useful.

Eldercaveman wrote:
Yeah I run 2 CCB lords, and I used personal for the first time yesterday making my lord fearless and have IWND, which was really useful.

If they're on a chariot they're already fearless

But IWND, tho...
Nice.

 CrownAxe wrote:

Eldercaveman wrote:
Yeah I run 2 CCB lords, and I used personal for the first time yesterday making my lord fearless and have IWND, which was really useful.

If they're on a chariot they're already fearless

Yeah but the IWND was nice, although I only played it as giving it to the Overlord, and not his chariot.

I played a tournament and got #5 on personal for my chariot every game! It did take a couple CAD rerolls, but pulling off FNP on the chariot is amazing! 2+/3++/5+(4+RP)

This thread really could do with some summaries for general Necron tactics, lists, tips and tricks etc adding to the OP.

Eldercaveman wrote:
This thread really could do with some summaries for general Necron tactics, lists, tips and tricks etc adding to the OP.

Was actually thinking of something along those lines myself.
Starred throwing together a "7th Edition Necron Report Card" (rated list of everything in the codex) to start if off... only issues would be A) getting the community to come to a consensus on the "grades" assigned to each unit, and B) getting the OP of this thread to edit it into the first post.

Maybe I'll post what I've got in a new thread first.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok, posted-

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/616099.page#7221919

Please check it out/leave some comments on what should be changed and why.
Hopefully if it pans out, OP here can add it to the first post so people after info will have something to start with.

Hey gang. Sorry I haven't posted that big game battle report. Have worked on it and will get it up soon.

MEANTIME - Going to a tournament in a couple of weeks. They allow Unbound, LoW up to 800pts and are using modified Maelstrom missions.

Been toying with fun unbound lists (tranny CTanny plus dlord/wraithwing plus 2CCBs) and just wondering if anyone had any smart ideas. I don't own 20 annihilation barges. Sadface.

TAKE 20 ANNIHIL--awwww, never mind...
:(

Do people think that the monolith is worth it now under 7th edition rules?

The monolith didn't gain anything of note from 7ed except for scoring but Ghosts Arks do it way better because they get to Jink and Objective secured

 IHateNids wrote:
Do people think that the monolith is worth it now under 7th edition rules?

No

Ghost arks cant remove Marines by the squadload.

I was just debating on whether or not to switch out my list for a small tournament upcoming.

 IHateNids wrote:
Ghost arks cant remove Marines by the squadload.

I was just debating on whether or not to switch out my list for a small tournament upcoming.

When its full of warriors it totally can.

The main thing is that nothing about the monolith actually changed. It wasn't good before and since nothing changed why would it be good now.

We'll it does score. The main problems are:

200pts (when 2 A. Barges cost 180)
No jink
No deep strike protection
If reserved it had to deep strike and the huge foot print makes it likely to mishap if it scatters
Relatively low range compared to comparable vehicles of similar point cost available from other factions
Particle a Whip is AP3, so deep striking units that seriously threaten Monoliths with 2+ Armour saves or any kind of cover are not threatened by the Monolith.
Variable range of the vacuum portal also makes it an unreliable weapon(every time I tried to use it I rolled short and then the enemy was in serious threat range to take down my Monolith.
Single ap1-2 shot can destroy it.

Kholzerino wrote:
Hey gang. Sorry I haven't posted that big game battle report. Have worked on it and will get it up soon.

MEANTIME - Going to a tournament in a couple of weeks. They allow Unbound, LoW up to 800pts and are using modified Maelstrom missions.

Been toying with fun unbound lists (tranny CTanny plus dlord/wraithwing plus 2CCBs) and just wondering if anyone had any smart ideas. I don't own 20 annihilation barges. Sadface.

Tranny Ctan and 3 Knights in Adamantine Lance Formation

I don't have any Knights, but that does sounds pretty boss.. I'm thinking either:

Transcendent C'Tan (transliminal slide, cosmic fire, seismic assault)
4 x CCB Overlords (Warscythe, Phase Shifter, Semp Weave, Mind Shackle Scarabs and one with Res Orb)

Or

4 x CCB Overlords (Warscythe, Phase Shifter, Semp Weave, Mind Shackle Scarabs and one with Res Orb)
2 x Destroyer Lord (Semp Weave, MSS, Scythe)
6 x Wraiths
6 x Wraiths
Tomb Blade
Tomb Blade
Tomb Blade

Tranny Ctan w Slide, Assault, and Withering. For sure keep Assault and Withering. Swap out Slide for something cheaper to reduce points.

Cron Air with StormTek Warrior Squads and D and D Squads. These kill enemy LOW and troops. NS are the most survivable transport when LOW are around.

Some small scarab units to hide in LOS blocking terrain. These hide to keep you from being tabled. These could alternatively be Tomb Blades if the mission is maelstrom.

Zandrekh with small warrior squad to hide in LOS blocking terrain to unlock court, buff Ctan (usually tankhunter or hit and run), and debuff opponent stuff. Alternatively, Zandrekh could be a CCB bargelord (with MSS, PS, SW, and WS at least) to use for add'l vehicle popping power. Watch out tho that the damage output of the CCB bargelord isnt that great vs blobs so avoid getting tarpitted.

ADL with comms merits consideration. ADL is a great place to hide scarabs out of sight.


Keep in mind . . .

The only things that can efficiently kill a T C'tan to my knowledge are D weapons, grav guns, MSS, and Deathmarks.

Stormteks are outrageously awesome against most LOW (most of them are vehicles) so spam them and win.

40 Guardians managed to kill my C'tan

Slide seems to be the best option, since it gives a lot of additional movement that you can use to get to the opponent and it deals a lot of damage.
But since the LoW can have a maximum of 800 points, I would change the set-up. You need to 'downgrade' one of the three options.
Not sure if you should take Seismic Shockwave or Cosmic Fire (instead of Withering).

Zhandrekh is really awesome with a C'tan, with Tank Hunter you will probably "one-shot" any SHV and with Hit&Run you don't have to 'fear' being locked in combat.
But contrary to what Col says, he cannot be a CCB-Lord with 7th edition

I would also take Tomb Blades over Scarabs, because they are always better at contesting/capturing objectives.
And if that one VP is important, you'll be happy you took the Tomb Blades.
Spare points can always be used on Shadowloom for that 3+ Jink.

Kangodo wrote:


But contrary to what Col says, he cannot be a CCB-Lord with 7th edition

I meant that you could switch out Zandrekh for a bargeLord not that you could put Zandrekh into a barge.

Slide is nifty for sure, but its not better than withering. You can't slide and go into cc in the same turn iirc and withering is key for wiping troops.

You could go slide + withering X 2 and get it under 800 points.

But I like Seismic Assault a lot, since it can do AA and anti-invis in a pinch. So I would keep withering and seismic assault (which are the two best by far) and take one of the <60 point options.

I've played the tranny three times and every time he's done more damage by blowing up than by shooting or assaulting. I think I marginally prefer Cosmic fire + transliminal slide to Wave + seismic assault.

Yes. Hadn't thought about how useful Stormteks would be vs Knights army.

Wish in unbound I could take Roysl courts without warriors in n scythes (225 points for 5 stormteks in a scythe would be... Amazing... 175 for three would be sufficient)

 NecronLord3 wrote:
I played a tournament and got #5 on personal for my chariot every game! It did take a couple CAD rerolls, but pulling off FNP on the chariot is amazing! 2+/3++/5+(4+RP)

That's called cheating you know.
FNP saves wounds, not HP.

morgoth wrote:

 NecronLord3 wrote:
I played a tournament and got #5 on personal for my chariot every game! It did take a couple CAD rerolls, but pulling off FNP on the chariot is amazing! 2+/3++/5+(4+RP)

That's called cheating you know.
FNP saves wounds, not HP.

The guy on the chariot suffers wounds you know.

 CrownAxe wrote:

morgoth wrote:

 NecronLord3 wrote:
I played a tournament and got #5 on personal for my chariot every game! It did take a couple CAD rerolls, but pulling off FNP on the chariot is amazing! 2+/3++/5+(4+RP)

That's called cheating you know.
FNP saves wounds, not HP.

The guy on the chariot suffers wounds you know.

He says FNP on the chariot, I read FNP on the chariot.
Either way, CCB are only good because there's no FAQ on chariots yet

morgoth wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

morgoth wrote:

 NecronLord3 wrote:
I played a tournament and got #5 on personal for my chariot every game! It did take a couple CAD rerolls, but pulling off FNP on the chariot is amazing! 2+/3++/5+(4+RP)

That's called cheating you know.
FNP saves wounds, not HP.

The guy on the chariot suffers wounds you know.

He says FNP on the chariot, I read FNP on the chariot.
Either way, CCB are only good because there's no FAQ on chariots yet

He also said it has 2+ armor which is on the rider

 CrownAxe wrote:

morgoth wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

morgoth wrote:

 NecronLord3 wrote:
I played a tournament and got #5 on personal for my chariot every game! It did take a couple CAD rerolls, but pulling off FNP on the chariot is amazing! 2+/3++/5+(4+RP)

That's called cheating you know.
FNP saves wounds, not HP.

The guy on the chariot suffers wounds you know.

He says FNP on the chariot, I read FNP on the chariot.
Either way, CCB are only good because there's no FAQ on chariots yet

He also said it has 2+ armor which is on the rider

Yeah well, things are better when they're clear to begin with.
Sure, I could've decided to interpret it that way, but that's not what was written.
Either way, I hate Necrons and giving them FnP is crazy. I'll make sure to ID that Bargelord some more.

(Obviously I was referring to the rider, but this is Dakka, so no surprise at your comment here.)

Yeah well, things are better when they're clear to begin with.
Sure, I could've decided to interpret it that way, but that's not what was written.
Either way, I hate Necrons and giving them FnP is crazy. I'll make sure to ID that Bargelord some more.

Give it a try, and I'll just allocate the wound to the chariot. You can't ID vehicles. Oh and you can roll IWND, too.

 NecronLord3 wrote:
(Obviously I was referring to the rider, but this is Dakka, so no surprise at your comment here.)

Yeah well, things are better when they're clear to begin with.
Sure, I could've decided to interpret it that way, but that's not what was written.
Either way, I hate Necrons and giving them FnP is crazy. I'll make sure to ID that Bargelord some more.

Give it a try, and I'll just allocate the wound to the chariot. You can't ID vehicles. Oh and you can roll IWND, too.

Not if he punches you in the face at STR 10 (close combat the attacker chooses who he attacks, rider or chariot)... I know Mindshackle, blah blah... but it is a real concern with the chariot. I have seen it happen more than a few times.

Yep. Wraithknights and dreadknights aren't the easiest things for a CCB Lord to deal with in close combat. Str 10 is worrisome. Even with 3++. The ccb is amazing against wave serpents, punisher Pask etc though...

Poow wittew sheshebe lowd.

It's a bit tricky to get a lot more models in contact than just the WK, but it's possible. And tbh, the CCB lord deserves to have at least some counters in the land of ridiculously strong MC/Dreadnoughts.

The fact that it's one of the rare fears it has shows just how broken the rules are though.

I can't imagine a CCB lord jumping in front of the barge to eat the melta shots, and then hiding behind it when the marines start firing.

Kholzerino wrote:
Yep. Wraithknights and dreadknights aren't the easiest things for a CCB Lord to deal with in close combat. Str 10 is worrisome. Even with 3++. The ccb is amazing against wave serpents, punisher Pask etc though...

He said nothing about cc. Things are better when they're clear to begin with.
Sure, I could've decided to interpret it that as talking about a cc attack, but that's not what was written. Besides, Overlords with MSS love it when Dreadknights are attacking in cc.

 NecronLord3 wrote:

Kholzerino wrote:
Yep. Wraithknights and dreadknights aren't the easiest things for a CCB Lord to deal with in close combat. Str 10 is worrisome. Even with 3++. The ccb is amazing against wave serpents, punisher Pask etc though...

He said nothing about cc. Things are better when they're clear to begin with.
Sure, I could've decided to interpret it that as talking about a cc attack, but that's not what was written. Besides, Overlords with MSS love it when Dreadknights are attacking in cc.

You know what, I think we got off on the wrong foot.

I did react a bit fast, but I genuinely believed you did play the FnP on the barge itself.
After all, there have been players using the 3++ on the barge, and the chariot rules are so full of shenanigans already it's easy to see how such misunderstandings can happen.

That being said, let's just get over this and on to the real discussion, when is that codex expected ? what's left from 5th Ed ?

Blood Angels is the next one, then Necrons ?

7th made Monoliths slightly harder to destroy... not enough of a change to make them worth taking, though.

 NecronLord3 wrote:

Kholzerino wrote:
Yep. Wraithknights and dreadknights aren't the easiest things for a CCB Lord to deal with in close combat. Str 10 is worrisome. Even with 3++. The ccb is amazing against wave serpents, punisher Pask etc though...

He said nothing about cc. Things are better when they're clear to begin with.
Sure, I could've decided to interpret it that as talking about a cc attack, but that's not what was written. Besides, Overlords with MSS love it when Dreadknights are attacking in cc.

I was responding to a post that was specifically about Close Combat. The post immediately before mine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

morgoth wrote:

 NecronLord3 wrote:

Kholzerino wrote:
Yep. Wraithknights and dreadknights aren't the easiest things for a CCB Lord to deal with in close combat. Str 10 is worrisome. Even with 3++. The ccb is amazing against wave serpents, punisher Pask etc though...

He said nothing about cc. Things are better when they're clear to begin with.
Sure, I could've decided to interpret it that as talking about a cc attack, but that's not what was written. Besides, Overlords with MSS love it when Dreadknights are attacking in cc.

You know what, I think we got off on the wrong foot.

I did react a bit fast, but I genuinely believed you did play the FnP on the barge itself.
After all, there have been players using the 3++ on the barge, and the chariot rules are so full of shenanigans already it's easy to see how such misunderstandings can happen.

That being said, let's just get over this and on to the real discussion, when is that codex expected ? what's left from 5th Ed ?

Blood Angels is the next one, then Necrons ?

Think aging CCB effectively and dealing with their hard counters (some of the most commonly taken tournament units) is a pretty good real discussion for the "Necrons in 7th" thread...

morgoth wrote:

After all, there have been players using the 3++ on the barge, and the chariot rules are so full of shenanigans already it's easy to see how such misunderstandings can happen.

Players should be applying the 3++ on the chariot profile. Not only is that RAW, but the new Space Wolf codex indicates that that is RAI.

Could a DespairTek Deepstrike in with a unit of Deathmarks?

Eldercaveman wrote:
Could a DespairTek Deepstrike in with a unit of Deathmarks?

Yup. Crypteks are Characters and are thereby just another trooper in the unit of Deathmarks.

col_impact wrote:

Eldercaveman wrote:
Could a DespairTek Deepstrike in with a unit of Deathmarks?

Yup. Crypteks are Characters and are thereby just another trooper in the unit of Deathmarks.

Spoiler:

Most characters are fielded in units from the start of the game, and represent squad
leaders, such as a Space Marine Veteran Sergeant. They have their own profile, but do not
have a separate entry. They are effectively just another trooper in their unit, with
enhanced characteristics and perhaps a wider selection of weapons and wargear choices.

Thanks, just trying to squeeze in more Stormteks in my list, going to play around with deepstriking the D+D squad rather than using the night scythe

Eldercaveman wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Eldercaveman wrote:
Could a DespairTek Deepstrike in with a unit of Deathmarks?

Yup. Crypteks are Characters and are thereby just another trooper in the unit of Deathmarks.

Spoiler:

Most characters are fielded in units from the start of the game, and represent squad
leaders, such as a Space Marine Veteran Sergeant. They have their own profile, but do not
have a separate entry. They are effectively just another trooper in their unit, with
enhanced characteristics and perhaps a wider selection of weapons and wargear choices.

Thanks, just trying to squeeze in more Stormteks in my list, going to play around with deepstriking the D+D squad rather than using the night scythe

If you take this approach, you need to deepstrike aggressively (really close to the target) to maximize the chances you will land within template range and rapid fire range. Keep in mind that 66% of the time you will scatter and scatter on a bell curve centered around 7". Sometimes people make visual guides to view the bell curve.

col_impact wrote:

Eldercaveman wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Eldercaveman wrote:
Could a DespairTek Deepstrike in with a unit of Deathmarks?

Yup. Crypteks are Characters and are thereby just another trooper in the unit of Deathmarks.

Spoiler:

Most characters are fielded in units from the start of the game, and represent squad
leaders, such as a Space Marine Veteran Sergeant. They have their own profile, but do not
have a separate entry. They are effectively just another trooper in their unit, with
enhanced characteristics and perhaps a wider selection of weapons and wargear choices.

Thanks, just trying to squeeze in more Stormteks in my list, going to play around with deepstriking the D+D squad rather than using the night scythe

If you take this approach, you need to deepstrike aggressively (really close to the target) to maximize the chances you will land within template range and rapid fire range. Keep in mind that 66% of the time you will scatter and scatter on a bell curve centered around 7". Sometimes people make visual guides to view the bell curve.

Yeah I'm at that crossroads with my lists,where I'm down to the really awkward fine tunings. And can't quite get the balance right between my crypteks.

col_impact wrote:

morgoth wrote:

After all, there have been players using the 3++ on the barge, and the chariot rules are so full of shenanigans already it's easy to see how such misunderstandings can happen.

Players should be applying the 3++ on the chariot profile. Not only is that RAW, but the new Space Wolf codex indicates that that is RAI.

You are totally right but get the tournament FAQs to agree with you. FAQ rule #1 - what ever is in the necron players favor, rule against it.

col_impact wrote:

Eldercaveman wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Eldercaveman wrote:
Could a DespairTek Deepstrike in with a unit of Deathmarks?

Yup. Crypteks are Characters and are thereby just another trooper in the unit of Deathmarks.

Spoiler:

Most characters are fielded in units from the start of the game, and represent squad
leaders, such as a Space Marine Veteran Sergeant. They have their own profile, but do not
have a separate entry. They are effectively just another trooper in their unit, with
enhanced characteristics and perhaps a wider selection of weapons and wargear choices.

Thanks, just trying to squeeze in more Stormteks in my list, going to play around with deepstriking the D+D squad rather than using the night scythe

If you take this approach, you need to deepstrike aggressively (really close to the target) to maximize the chances you will land within template range and rapid fire range. Keep in mind that 66% of the time you will scatter and scatter on a bell curve centered around 7". Sometimes people make visual guides to view the bell curve.

Could you ellaborate on the bellcurve?

 NecronLord3 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

morgoth wrote:

After all, there have been players using the 3++ on the barge, and the chariot rules are so full of shenanigans already it's easy to see how such misunderstandings can happen.

Players should be applying the 3++ on the chariot profile. Not only is that RAW, but the new Space Wolf codex indicates that that is RAI.

You are totally right but get the tournament FAQs to agree with you. FAQ rule #1 - what ever is in the necron players favor, rule against it.

I don't mind playing the BAO or Nova FAQs. But in the case of those tournaments where it's just 7th edition rules or in general pick up games, the bargeLord has RAW and RAI support for 3++ applied to the chariot profile and should be played that way.

Eldercaveman wrote:


Could you ellaborate on the bellcurve?

article: http://40kangelsofdeath.blogspot.com/2012/11/mathhammer-part-3-deep-strike.html

Eldercaveman wrote:

Could you ellaborate on the bellcurve?

Simply put there are more ways for the dice to total 7 than there is to total any other number. so you will see 7 more often. Thus expanding on earlier remark about scatter, 66% chance to scatter, then your average scatter will be 7".

Mind this applies to all 2d6 rolls, Leadership, Charge range, and so on. just something to keep in mind.

Side note:
this bell curve is exactly what the game Craps is played using, 7 being the houses number (casino wins) and all the other numbers is the players numbers. You bet on the chance that you will see any of the other numbers roll twice before a 7 is rolled once.

 NecronLord3 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

morgoth wrote:

After all, there have been players using the 3++ on the barge, and the chariot rules are so full of shenanigans already it's easy to see how such misunderstandings can happen.

Players should be applying the 3++ on the chariot profile. Not only is that RAW, but the new Space Wolf codex indicates that that is RAI.

You are totally right but get the tournament FAQs to agree with you. FAQ rule #1 - what ever is in the necron players favor, rule against it.

I don't think anyone would agree with the 3++ on the chariot except perhaps a Necron who wants them to be even more broken.

You know that chariot is beyond broken and it's mostly because there's a gap between v5 codex and v7 - and certainly not intended, why do you want it to be even worse ?

morgoth wrote:

 NecronLord3 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

morgoth wrote:

After all, there have been players using the 3++ on the barge, and the chariot rules are so full of shenanigans already it's easy to see how such misunderstandings can happen.

Players should be applying the 3++ on the chariot profile. Not only is that RAW, but the new Space Wolf codex indicates that that is RAI.

You are totally right but get the tournament FAQs to agree with you. FAQ rule #1 - what ever is in the necron players favor, rule against it.

I don't think anyone would agree with the 3++ on the chariot except perhaps a Necron who wants them to be even more broken.

You know that chariot is beyond broken and it's mostly because there's a gap between v5 codex and v7 - and certainly not intended, why do you want it to be even worse ?

Huh? It's RAW and RAI. Read the Space Wolves codex and note that the USR of the rider conveys to the chariot unless otherwise blocked. I am sorry if the power level of the bargeLord offends you and you want to bend all logic to prevent any rules-supported buffs but its no where near the most powerful unit in 40k and there is no justification for isolating out the bargeLord for power level intervention that goes against RAW and RAI.

col_impact wrote:

Huh? It's RAW and RAI. Read the Space Wolves codex and note that the USR of the rider conveys to the chariot unless otherwise blocked. I am sorry if the power level of the bargeLord offends you and you want to bend all logic to prevent any rules-supported buffs but its no where near the most powerful unit in 40k and there is no justification for isolating out the bargeLord for power level intervention that goes against RAW and RAI.

It's RAI for the SW guy, the BargeLord was created with the v5 codex and was not intended to benefit from v7 concepts or RAI from a v7 codex.
The BargeLord is a pile of bs that's only effective because it's a v5 codex taking advantage of v7 rules, that was never intended, and the new codex will get rid of all that crap.
If you're willing to abuse the fact that RAW BargeLord has a 3++, do it, just don't ask me to say it's anything else than pure RAW abuse from an outdated codex.

It's RAI for 7ed because they left it as is for 7ed. If they didn't want the CCB to get the 3++ then you would have fixed it in the 7ed Necron FAQ when they changed the other parts of the chariot. But they left it as is so it's clear that's what they intended.

 CrownAxe wrote:
It's RAI for 7ed because they left it as is for 7ed. If they didn't want the CCB to get the 3++ then you would have fixed it in the 7ed Necron FAQ when they changed the other parts of the chariot. But they left it as is so it's clear that's what they intended.

Would be a credible argument if GW was known for fixing all mistakes / discrepancies arising from a change in versions or just basic mistakes when writing their FAQ.

If all big tournaments rule against it, it's because it's clearly not RAI and just a compatibility bug.
If you're taking that 3++, you're a RAW abuser, that's all there is to it.

GW did not intend for the Death Ray to hit invisible units or flyers, they even had a FAQ in v6 to say it wouldn't hit flyers, but somehow they forgot to put it back in v7 - guess what, now it hits flyers.
Do you think that was intended ?

Yes i do think the death ray hitting flyer is RAI because they deliberately removed the FAQ when they updated the Cron FAQ to 7th instead of just leaving it.

And you can't say my argument is invalid because they have fixed problem in the FAQ before. How do you know that the Death Ray or 3++ CCB isn't one of those cases?

Guys, take your discussion private or to YMDC, please don't flood the tactics thread with rules arguments.

No, don't. There already are multiple YMDC threads on it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

morgoth wrote:
RAW abuser

...wat.

GW did not intend for the Death Ray to hit invisible units or flyers, they even had a FAQ in v6 to say it wouldn't hit flyers, but somehow they forgot to put it back in v7 - guess what, now it hits flyers.
Do you think that was intended ?

Well, the fact that GW added a rule that explicitely disallows it hitting flyers kinda makes me think that they did see it coming.

I used to think that the 3++ on the chariot profile was just an easter egg that came from a 5th edition codex in a 7th edition game.

However, the Space Wolves codex clarified that the USR of the rider profile conveys to the chariot model (unless noted otherwise).

The chariot rules were an area of focused editing in the move from 6th edition to 7th edition. GW has taken a serious pass at updating the codexes to the 7th edition rules and published a 7th FAQ for each.

There are 3 chariots in the game.

2 out of 3 them make it clear that they lose their IC status and cannot join units. IC status is something that will convey unless noted as removed.

The Space Wolf codex makes it clear that the USR of things like the deep strike ability of terminator armor will convey unless noted as removed. In addition the Space Wolf chariot inherits the 4++ of the iron halo.

The Necron codex has an up to date 7th edition FAQ. These chariot items were obviously very much on the FAQ writers radar since chariots were a hot topic for the 7th edition FAQ so you play the FAQ as provided and assume it reflects RAW and RAI . To say otherwise is to maintain some "conspiracy theory" form of logic or deep cynicism about GW's competence. You can make a case for an editorial mistake on something like the dropping of the FAQ item that clarified that the CCB sweep attack can not hit flyers. However, you can't make that case for the new rules on the CCB that were intentionally written into the 7th edition FAQ.

Now it is certainly within the ability of TOs to house rule this issue and push forward a power level edit. But since the unveiling of the Space Wolves codex, its now clear that they are going against RAW and RAI in doing so. People should put the time into playing the unit as it has been provided RAW and RAI before resorting to power level editing.

Moreover, I have been playing my CCB as having both 3++ on the chariot profile and the ability to join units and it is not OP by any margin. Its just comparable yet lower in power to a Riptide or a Wraithknight. The ability to join units is very limited in the case of the CCB since you don't benefit from Look Out Sir, lose mobility, and cannot be joined by other IC. And people who think the 3++ is unfair should take a hard look at the amount of points being sunk into a CCB and how it rates to other powerful units. The damage output on those things leaves a lot to be desired for the level of point expenditure. I would rather have a Riptide or a Wraithknight or a ChapterMaster on a bike.

Just saying, though:

The 3++ isn't one of the rider's USR. The chariot gets the 3++ because the item explicitely states that the "model" gets the save and the chapter on chariots explicitely tells you to treat rider and chariot as a single model for all rules purposes.

An example for a USR carrying over would be Furious Charge.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Just saying, though:

The 3++ isn't one of the rider's USR. The chariot gets the 3++ because the item explicitely states that the "model" gets the save and the chapter on chariots explicitely tells you to treat rider and chariot as a single model for all rules purposes.

An example for a USR carrying over would be Furious Charge.

Thanks for the clarification. The Space Wolves codex makes it clear that the deep strike ability of the terminator armor wargear on the rider would convey to the chariot so they explicitly noted that the chariot does not have deep strike. There is basically a line in there that reveals how to handle wargear in the case of chariots.

Well I'm takin my CCB Olord to the UK GT this weekend and they categorically state that the 3++ doesn't transfer. Think it's still worth bringing. Has everyone stopped taking wraiths to tournaments now? Considering bringing a DLord and 6 Wraiths too, for old time's sake. If I knew we would get lots of LoS blocking l would do it. Is everyone else bringing 2 CCBs to any tourney game?

Kholzerino wrote:
Well I'm takin my CCB Olord to the UK GT this weekend and they categorically state that the 3++ doesn't transfer. Think it's still worth bringing. Has everyone stopped taking wraiths to tournaments now? Considering bringing a DLord and 6 Wraiths too, for old time's sake. If I knew we would get lots of LoS blocking l would do it. Is everyone else bringing 2 CCBs to any tourney game?

It's still worth bringing, the 3++ on the chariot is never going to happen outside of bullshitland and no serious competitive player ever discussed the CCB with the assumption that it would.

You can find the lists that ranked high on previous tournaments online.

Kholzerino wrote:
Well I'm takin my CCB Olord to the UK GT this weekend and they categorically state that the 3++ doesn't transfer.

I irony would be delicious if the codex drops at the end of the month and the 3++ does transfer.

 adamsouza wrote:

Kholzerino wrote:
Well I'm takin my CCB Olord to the UK GT this weekend and they categorically state that the 3++ doesn't transfer.

I irony would be delicious if the codex drops at the end of the month and the 3++ does transfer.

I don't think you've got any idea.
If the codex drops, CCB will be nerfed hard into the ground and you won't even take them in your tournament list.

Kholzerino wrote:
Well I'm takin my CCB Olord to the UK GT this weekend and they categorically state that the 3++ doesn't transfer. Think it's still worth bringing. Has everyone stopped taking wraiths to tournaments now? Considering bringing a DLord and 6 Wraiths too, for old time's sake. If I knew we would get lots of LoS blocking l would do it. Is everyone else bringing 2 CCBs to any tourney game?

Totally. You still get to jink for a cover save against shooting and in combat your Overlord will be the one getting attack almost everytime. The 3++ being on the CCB or not barely makes a difference.

Also morgoth do you actually play necrons? All I ever see so you do in this thread is complain about how "broken" the CCB is (which i find funny since you're also adamant about the wave serapant not being broken)

morgoth wrote:

Kholzerino wrote:
Well I'm takin my CCB Olord to the UK GT this weekend and they categorically state that the 3++ doesn't transfer. Think it's still worth bringing. Has everyone stopped taking wraiths to tournaments now? Considering bringing a DLord and 6 Wraiths too, for old time's sake. If I knew we would get lots of LoS blocking l would do it. Is everyone else bringing 2 CCBs to any tourney game?

It's still worth bringing, the 3++ on the chariot is never going to happen outside of bullshitland and no serious competitive player ever discussed the CCB with the assumption that it would.

You can find the lists that ranked high on previous tournaments online.

It's not bullshitland, unless you consider the way in which chariots are being handled in the Space Wolves codex to be bullshitland. My approach is to play the Necron chariot in the manner that the Space Wolves codex has clarified that chariots are to be played. RAW and RAI is clear here. The fact that there are TOs who are still playing largely according to 6th and making small conservative steps to 7th edition (to keep attendance high) does not impact a discussion of RAW and RAI, since it is always within a TOs power to house rule anyway.

So, Morgoth, as evidenced in other threads and this one, your input is more emotional and irrational than anything else and is of little value to rules or tactical discussions. I suggest you bring less emotion and more reason and rationality to your posts.

col_impact wrote:

It's not bullshitland, unless you consider the way in which chariots are being handled in the Space Wolves codex to be bullshitland. My approach is to play the Necron chariot in the manner that the Space Wolves codex has clarified that chariots are to be played. RAW and RAI is clear here. The fact that there are TOs who are still playing largely according to 6th and making small conservative steps to 7th edition (to keep attendance high) does not impact a discussion of RAW and RAI, since it is always within a TOs power to house rule anyway.

So, Morgoth, as evidenced in other threads and this one, your input is more emotional and irrational than anything else and is of little value to rules or tactical discussions. I suggest you bring less emotion and more reason and rationality to your posts.

I don't think you know what that word means.

TOs judged the 3++ that way because that's the only judgment that made sense.
If you want to go against that because you'd rather have yet another unfair advantage on the already very broken chariot unit - which you only started taking since the rules for it were broken with v7, from the number of HoW hits, to the shooting attack allocation, to the dual HP pool, ...
Go ahead. But don't pretend it's fair or anything short of RAW abuse.

Space Wolves are a very separate case, they have been written for v7, after v7, with full knowledge of the effects of RAW.
Using the SW example to justify your CCB 3++ transfer is not logical, it's just taking any justification you can find to your conclusion.

Perhaps it is emotion that is making you see that 3++ transfer to the barge as fair.

morgoth wrote:

col_impact wrote:

It's not bullshitland, unless you consider the way in which chariots are being handled in the Space Wolves codex to be bullshitland. My approach is to play the Necron chariot in the manner that the Space Wolves codex has clarified that chariots are to be played. RAW and RAI is clear here. The fact that there are TOs who are still playing largely according to 6th and making small conservative steps to 7th edition (to keep attendance high) does not impact a discussion of RAW and RAI, since it is always within a TOs power to house rule anyway.

So, Morgoth, as evidenced in other threads and this one, your input is more emotional and irrational than anything else and is of little value to rules or tactical discussions. I suggest you bring less emotion and more reason and rationality to your posts.

I don't think you know what that word means.

TOs judged the 3++ that way because that's the only judgment that made sense.
If you want to go against that because you'd rather have yet another unfair advantage on the already very broken chariot unit - which you only started taking since the rules for it were broken with v7, from the number of HoW hits, to the shooting attack allocation, to the dual HP pool, ...
Go ahead. But don't pretend it's fair or anything short of RAW abuse.

Space Wolves are a very separate case, they have been written for v7, after v7, with full knowledge of the effects of RAW.
Using the SW example to justify your CCB 3++ transfer is not logical, it's just taking any justification you can find to your conclusion.

Perhaps it is emotion that is making you see that 3++ transfer to the barge as fair.

Your premise is flawed. Please show how the Necron chariot is more broken than the comparably costed Riptide, Wraithknight, Chapter Master on a bike, or Logan Grimnar on a chariot (leave alone a comparison with various deathstars or power units in the tournament scene). You are making a problem where there is no problem. The Necron chariot is not broken so we don't need to predispose ourselves to stamp out any minor buffs that pop in rules discussions.

If you want to see broken, look at the Wave Serpent. That is broken. The Wave Serpent is warping tournaments. The Necron chariot is not.

As stated above, my opinion on the 3++ save for the chariot has changed. At first I saw the 3++ save for the chariot as an easter egg and an artifact of a 5th edition codex in a 7th edition game. However, the Space Wolves codex made it clear that the 7th edition Necron codex is actually 100% correct as provided. The Space Wolves codex made it clear that invul saves, deep strike abilitites, and IC confer to the chariot (unless line item blocked). I have the weight of GW rules behind me. You have a predisposed view of the Necron chariot as broken fueling your discourse. If you can prove that the necron Chariot is broken (ie by showing how it is warping tournaments) then you might have a case for power level editing against RAW and RAI. Otherwise you are making a problem where there is none.

col_impact wrote:

Your premise is flawed. Please show how the Necron chariot is more broken than the comparably costed Riptide, Wraithknight, Chapter Master on a bike, or Logan Grimnar on a chariot (leave alone a comparison with various deathstars or power units in the tournament scene). You are making a problem where there is no problem. The Necron chariot is not broken so we don't need to predispose ourselves to stamp out any minor buffs that pop in rules discussions.

If you want to see broken, look at the Wave Serpent. That is broken. The Wave Serpent is warping tournaments. The Necron chariot is not.

The CCB is now the default Necron HQ, has another AV13 on the board, pretty sure it warps the Necron power level a good deal.
Necron players take less Night Scythes and Annihilation Barges because of it. If that's not a telltale sign of "this gak's awesome", I don't know what it is.

The Wave Serpent is not warping tournaments and never has.

Up until Nova, the only thing Eldar that warped tournaments were Seerstar, BeastStar with WS support. Not WS with deathstar support, the other way around, the deathstar made the game, and the WS completed it nicely.

Now if you want to look into the future, I'll just wait and see.



The chariot is broken because its rules are slowed. The fact that you can decide on which target the shots land is abnormal and gives it abnormal resilience, same for the separate HP/W pools, it doesn't make sense either.
Even if it were not competitive, it would need a fix.

It's not your fault, just GW completely messed up when they wrote chariot rules.


Either way, right now it's CCBlord or die, and that will make the next codex nerf CCBlords 99% sure, because that's how things are done in the GWverse.
I would rather have the chariot rules fixed, but that's hoping far too much.

morgoth wrote:

The Wave Serpent is not warping tournaments and never has.

http://www.torrentoffire.com/5783/united-against-the-wave-serpent

morgoth wrote:

The chariot is broken because its rules are slowed. The fact that you can decide on which target the shots land is abnormal and gives it abnormal resilience, same for the separate HP/W pools, it doesn't make sense either.
Even if it were not competitive, it would need a fix.

This way of handling chariots is coming straight from the 7th edition rule book. You seem to be having a problem with its newness more than anything else. Yup this is a new mechanic in a game where new mechanics are introduced from time to time. No need for a fix.

You have failed to show the necron chariot is broken. Moreover, you are revealing that your trouble with the necron chariot is coming more from your uncomfortability with the newness of its mechanics than anything else. Basically, your knee-jerk conservative opinion on the matter has no bearing on a serious discussion of the matter.

morgoth wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Your premise is flawed. Please show how the Necron chariot is more broken than the comparably costed Riptide, Wraithknight, Chapter Master on a bike, or Logan Grimnar on a chariot (leave alone a comparison with various deathstars or power units in the tournament scene). You are making a problem where there is no problem. The Necron chariot is not broken so we don't need to predispose ourselves to stamp out any minor buffs that pop in rules discussions.

If you want to see broken, look at the Wave Serpent. That is broken. The Wave Serpent is warping tournaments. The Necron chariot is not.

The CCB is now the default Necron HQ, has another AV13 on the board, pretty sure it warps the Necron power level a good deal.
Necron players take less Night Scythes and Annihilation Barges because of it. If that's not a telltale sign of "this gak's awesome", I don't know what it is.

The Wave Serpent is not warping tournaments and never has.

Up until Nova, the only thing Eldar that warped tournaments were Seerstar, BeastStar with WS support. Not WS with deathstar support, the other way around, the deathstar made the game, and the WS completed it nicely.

Now if you want to look into the future, I'll just wait and see.



The chariot is broken because its rules are slowed. The fact that you can decide on which target the shots land is abnormal and gives it abnormal resilience, same for the separate HP/W pools, it doesn't make sense either.
Even if it were not competitive, it would need a fix.

It's not your fault, just GW completely messed up when they wrote chariot rules.


Either way, right now it's CCBlord or die, and that will make the next codex nerf CCBlords 99% sure, because that's how things are done in the GWverse.
I would rather have the chariot rules fixed, but that's hoping far too much.

NOVA was won by an Eldar player with 5 Wave Serpents on the table. 6th place had 6 of them on the table. 4th had a single CCB and lost to Eldar and Tau. Eldar is by and far the most dominant Codex in the game at the moment, and you complaining about one model that requires at least 240 points to be effective and still has counters (and can't join any unit to boot) isn't going to change that fact.

Requizen wrote:

NOVA was won by an Eldar player with 5 Wave Serpents on the table. 6th place had 6 of them on the table. 4th had a single CCB and lost to Eldar and Tau. Eldar is by and far the most dominant Codex in the game at the moment, and you complaining about one model that requires at least 240 points to be effective and still has counters (and can't join any unit to boot) isn't going to change that fact.

FYI, according the RAW and RAI, the bargeLord can join units (just do a comparative reading of the necron chariot, the chaos chariot, and the space wolves chariot and you will see). However, since it does not get Look Out Sir and no other IC can join the unit, its a very minor buff.

Requizen wrote:

morgoth wrote:

Up until Nova, the only thing Eldar that warped tournaments were Seerstar, BeastStar with WS support. Not WS with deathstar support, the other way around, the deathstar made the game, and the WS completed it nicely.

NOVA was won by an Eldar player with 5 Wave Serpents on the table. 6th place had 6 of them on the table. 4th had a single CCB and lost to Eldar and Tau. Eldar is by and far the most dominant Codex in the game at the moment, and you complaining about one model that requires at least 240 points to be effective and still has counters (and can't join any unit to boot) isn't going to change that fact.

NOVA was won by a player who won a lot of tournaments before that, thanks to tactical versatility in his choice of units, all of which were perfectly adapted to the NOVA terrain (ghostwalk matrix no holofields, Night Spinners, etc.).

Now, the guy who should have won NOVA, 93% of the time at least, was Thomas Donslund, with a far more powerful build of Iyanden Beast Star, for which the combo failed to materialize in his last game.
That's deserved of course, because riding the spell-luck tide is bound to result in such situations.

Most of the lists that did well were based on such deathstars, all of the lists that did well took advantage of the NOVA terrain, which clearly is a godsend to a mobile army, therefore favoring Eldar even before army lists are written.

The Necron there was 720 points Orks and spamming the flyers iirc, so yeah he did pretty good, with an unexpected allied formation and the usual Necron stuff that works well.

The fact remains that the vast majority of the Eldar wins that you can see in those tournaments is SeerStar or BeastStar.
That they would not have happened without is still unknown, but to me, Tony Kopach and his NOVA tailored list is a clear outlier.



Oh and, I have no problem with the power level of the CCB, my problem is with the bs rules.
They're even dumber than me getting WK cover saves by having a foot in cover.
I want them nerfed mostly because I don't like the idea of people taking that unit only because v7 made those rules ridiculous.
If they're nerfed, Necrons will turn to other HQ choices and I won't have to look at that turd and say "hey, how would you like another S10AP2 shot in your face, mr. chariotPants ?" - chariot pants doesn't even sound good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:

morgoth wrote:

The Wave Serpent is not warping tournaments and never has.

http://www.torrentoffire.com/5783/united-against-the-wave-serpent

Oh I read that article alright, it's full of junk.

I don't know if the guy who wrote it even realizes just how wrong some of his advice is.

No surprise though, there are a few people @ ToF who just post random crap.

morgoth wrote:

Requizen wrote:

morgoth wrote:

Up until Nova, the only thing Eldar that warped tournaments were Seerstar, BeastStar with WS support. Not WS with deathstar support, the other way around, the deathstar made the game, and the WS completed it nicely.

NOVA was won by an Eldar player with 5 Wave Serpents on the table. 6th place had 6 of them on the table. 4th had a single CCB and lost to Eldar and Tau. Eldar is by and far the most dominant Codex in the game at the moment, and you complaining about one model that requires at least 240 points to be effective and still has counters (and can't join any unit to boot) isn't going to change that fact.

NOVA was won by a player who won a lot of tournaments before that, thanks to tactical versatility in his choice of units, all of which were perfectly adapted to the NOVA terrain (ghostwalk matrix no holofields, Night Spinners, etc.).

Now, the guy who should have won NOVA, 93% of the time at least, was Thomas Donslund, with a far more powerful build of Iyanden Beast Star, for which the combo failed to materialize in his last game.
That's deserved of course, because riding the spell-luck tide is bound to result in such situations.

Most of the lists that did well were based on such deathstars, all of the lists that did well took advantage of the NOVA terrain, which clearly is a godsend to a mobile army, therefore favoring Eldar even before army lists are written.

The Necron there was 720 points Orks and spamming the flyers iirc, so yeah he did pretty good, with an unexpected allied formation and the usual Necron stuff that works well.

The fact remains that the vast majority of the Eldar wins that you can see in those tournaments is SeerStar or BeastStar.
That they would not have happened without is still unknown, but to me, Tony Kopach and his NOVA tailored list is a clear outlier.



Oh and, I have no problem with the power level of the CCB, my problem is with the bs rules.
They're even dumber than me getting WK cover saves by having a foot in cover.
I want them nerfed mostly because I don't like the idea of people taking that unit only because v7 made those rules ridiculous.
If they're nerfed, Necrons will turn to other HQ choices and I won't have to look at that turd and say "hey, how would you like another S10AP2 shot in your face, mr. chariotPants ?" - chariot pants doesn't even sound good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:

morgoth wrote:

The Wave Serpent is not warping tournaments and never has.

http://www.torrentoffire.com/5783/united-against-the-wave-serpent

Oh I read that article alright, it's full of junk.

I don't know if the guy who wrote it even realizes just how wrong some of his advice is.

No surprise though, there are a few people @ ToF who just post random crap.

Uh no. He has statistics to back his article up. The person trying to push his junky opinion on others is you. Your opinion falls directly against the statistically verifiable dominance of Wave Serpents. Please explain why we should ignore statistics.

col_impact wrote:
Uh no. He has statistics to back his article up. The person trying to push his junky opinion on others is you.

Yeah sure.

Serpent Killing Tactic #2: Force Their Shields

Wave Serpents have an interesting problem that a lot of people seem to forget: They have two greatly different range bands. With their most common equipment, Wave Serpents have a Scatter Laser with 36″ range, a Shuriken Cannon with 24″ range, and their Serpent Shields with 60″ range. The weapons on the Serpent snowball, with the hit from the Scatter Laser twin-linking everything else, so therein lies an interesting opportunity. If you can force a Wave Serpent to use its Serpent shield because you’re able to outrange the lesser guns, you’ve given yourself an opportunity to put some pressure on the now much more vulnerable gunship. A few units can do this better than others: Dark Eldar vehicles with Night Shields, Skyrays, Manticores, etc. The key is understanding that Wave Serpents are a fast skimmer, so not only do you need to outrange the 36″ Scatter Laser, but also their 6-12″ of movement as well. This, of course, is easier said than done on a board that’s only 6′ x 4′, but with the right scenarios and firing lane maneuvers, it can be done.

1. The Scatter Laser is on a turret at the back of the WS, it only really has 34-33" range at most.
2. The Shuriken Canon is on the hull, it only really has 23-22" range at most. This is critical with regards to 12" movement, 24" charge threat bubble units.
3. Shooting the Serpent Shield from outside 34" happens once in a blue moon. It means losing most of your damage output, and your twin-link.
4. 6-12" of movement, outranging the Wave Serpent. That's ridiculous. You don't outrange a WS, you track it and you murder it. trying to outrange it smells of noob.

That's just one third, the rest is full of just as much nonsense.

The one big threat to Wave Serpents is assault. Assault from anything, even a TAC marine squad will melt Wave Serpents. Even the turn after it landed with a drop pod, at which time it rapid fired in the rear of that Wave Serpent.

The other big thing about Wave Serpents is that they only dish out S6/7 AP nothing shots, meaning they don't kill MEQ or TEQ very effectively, meaning if that's all you throw at them, you will have a build autowin.

That guy does not know what a Wave Serpent is or how its played, he has access to all the ToF statistics but he can't play WS and he can't play against WS.

Telling you to get "ignores cover" units is playing the WS game, offering high point low resilience units to let the WS (and its cargo) make their points back in an instant. Not only that but those units are usually taking up important slots, which you'd rather use on being TAC.

morgoth wrote:

col_impact wrote:
Uh no. He has statistics to back his article up. The person trying to push his junky opinion on others is you.

Yeah sure.

Serpent Killing Tactic #2: Force Their Shields

Wave Serpents have an interesting problem that a lot of people seem to forget: They have two greatly different range bands. With their most common equipment, Wave Serpents have a Scatter Laser with 36″ range, a Shuriken Cannon with 24″ range, and their Serpent Shields with 60″ range. The weapons on the Serpent snowball, with the hit from the Scatter Laser twin-linking everything else, so therein lies an interesting opportunity. If you can force a Wave Serpent to use its Serpent shield because you’re able to outrange the lesser guns, you’ve given yourself an opportunity to put some pressure on the now much more vulnerable gunship. A few units can do this better than others: Dark Eldar vehicles with Night Shields, Skyrays, Manticores, etc. The key is understanding that Wave Serpents are a fast skimmer, so not only do you need to outrange the 36″ Scatter Laser, but also their 6-12″ of movement as well. This, of course, is easier said than done on a board that’s only 6′ x 4′, but with the right scenarios and firing lane maneuvers, it can be done.

1. The Scatter Laser is on a turret at the back of the WS, it only really has 34-33" range at most.
2. The Shuriken Canon is on the hull, it only really has 23-22" range at most. This is critical with regards to 12" movement, 24" charge threat bubble units.
3. Shooting the Serpent Shield from outside 34" happens once in a blue moon. It means losing most of your damage output, and your twin-link.
4. 6-12" of movement, outranging the Wave Serpent. That's ridiculous. You don't outrange a WS, you track it and you murder it. trying to outrange it smells of noob.

That's just one third, the rest is full of just as much nonsense.

The one big threat to Wave Serpents is assault. Assault from anything, even a TAC marine squad will melt Wave Serpents. Even the turn after it landed with a drop pod, at which time it rapid fired in the rear of that Wave Serpent.

The other big thing about Wave Serpents is that they only dish out S6/7 AP nothing shots, meaning they don't kill MEQ or TEQ very effectively, meaning if that's all you throw at them, you will have a build autowin.

That guy does not know what a Wave Serpent is or how its played, he has access to all the ToF statistics but he can't play WS and he can't play against WS.

Telling you to get "ignores cover" units is playing the WS game, offering high point low resilience units to let the WS (and its cargo) make their points back in an instant. Not only that but those units are usually taking up important slots, which you'd rather use on being TAC.

I get that you're an upset Eldar player, but this isn't the thread for you to stand on your soapbox and tell people how much you hate their unit and defend what is almost unanimously agreed to be one of the best models in the entire game. You can make a new post about how much you hate the CCB and how it keeps you up at night.

Requizen wrote:

I get that you're an upset Eldar player, but this isn't the thread for you to stand on your soapbox and tell people how much you hate their unit and defend what is almost unanimously agreed to be one of the best models in the entire game. You can make a new post about how much you hate the CCB and how it keeps you up at night.

I'm just answering that guy you know.

And sharing my opinion that the CCB will get the nerf bat.

What are your expectations on that new codex ?

morgoth wrote:
The one big threat to Wave Serpents is assault. Assault from anything, even a TAC marine squad will melt Wave Serpents. Even the turn after it landed with a drop pod, at which time it rapid fired in the rear of that Wave Serpent.

How do you propose Necrons, predominately a shooty race, get into CC with it?

Scarabs, Wraiths or a CCB (doesn't even need to charge) all can catch up and annihilate it

 IHateNids wrote:
Scarabs, Wraiths or a CCB (doesn't even need to charge) all can catch up and annihilate it

I can agree with the CCB and maybe the Wraiths, but Scarabs? Wouldn't they be Insta-killed? I guess a 210 (min) model wiping out 75 points has a trade off in the long run

10 Scarabs run to 150 points, and a Serpent runs to 210 decked out.

While yes, they are insta-gibbed by all the weapons the Serpent totes, the Serpent would have to not move to bring them all to bear. If that happens, if even a single scarab survives, and they can take armour against the shield and scatter laser, the odds show that the Serpent is most likely dead by the end of the next turn.

 IHateNids wrote:
10 Scarabs run to 150 points, and a Serpent runs to 210 decked out.

While yes, they are insta-gibbed by all the weapons the Serpent totes, the Serpent would have to not move to bring them all to bear. If that happens, if even a single scarab survives, and they can take armour against the shield and scatter laser, the odds show that the Serpent is most likely dead by the end of the next turn.

Scarabs are awesome at hopping around and hiding out of LoS and are most often not the priority target. Run them up, hugging LoS, with other higher priority targets drawing fire.

The CCB will most certainly get nerfed. You guys can't seriously expect it to keep the 3++.

It shouldn't even have the 3++ rules wise. The phase shifter is on the overlord, not the CCB.

 Sigvatr wrote:
The CCB will most certainly get nerfed. You guys can't seriously expect it to keep the 3++.

Logan Grimnar has 2+,4++ (on rider and chariot), Eternal Warrior, 4 wounds, 3 force glanced hull points on av 12, WS 7, 4 rending S5 + 5 S8 AP2 attacks. The only way CCB keeps up with that damage output is by banking hard on MSS and having 3++. So look again at Grimnar and play a battle out against those two. Heck, considering Grimnar, you could almost expect an overall buff (especially if MSS gets nerfed).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
It shouldn't even have the 3++ rules wise. The phase shifter is on the overlord, not the CCB.

Check the rules on phase shifter. Check the rules on chariots and how they are defined. Check the Space Wolves codex for how to handle Invul saves from relics, USR from wargear (like deep strike from Terminator armour).

Logan is a unique choice, though, and I don't know how they compare points wise; I'd imagine he's quite more expensive. Not up-to-date with 7th rules, help a brotha out.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Logan is a unique choice, though, and I don't know how they compare points wise; I'd imagine he's quite more expensive. Not up-to-date with 7th rules, help a brotha out.

You can fully kit out a bargeLord and get them equal or similar in points. Logan is 320. A competition kitted out bargeLord is 255-285 and you can fill up the points differential with arrow, phylactery, etc.

The easiest way to keep on top of all these codexes is to use BattleScribe.

Your argument seems to be that an invul save on a chariot is outrageous. Well, the existence of Logan directly disagrees with that summation.

redacted

A chariot is treated as one model, the model purchases the phase shifter. The CCB is wargear, as much as the Warscythe. That is RAW.

col_impact wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Logan is a unique choice, though, and I don't know how they compare points wise; I'd imagine he's quite more expensive. Not up-to-date with 7th rules, help a brotha out.

You can fully kit out a bargeLord and get them equal or similar in points. Logan is 320. A competition kitted out bargeLord is 255-285 and you can fill up the points differential with arrow, phylactery, etc.

The easiest way to keep on top of all these codexes is to use BattleScribe.

Your argument seems to be that an invul save on a chariot is outrageous. Well, the existence of Logan directly disagrees with that summation.

What makes the CCB effective is the area denial and anti-armor it provides - having a 3++ on top is buff. Being able to squeeze 2+ of them into a list is awesome as well and it still has some neat gimmicks like the Sweeping Attacks. Hm. Thanks for the heads-up, though, while Logan still is more expensive (50-70 pts), they aren't that far apart.

col_impact wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Logan is a unique choice, though, and I don't know how they compare points wise; I'd imagine he's quite more expensive. Not up-to-date with 7th rules, help a brotha out.

You can fully kit out a bargeLord and get them equal or similar in points. Logan is 320. A competition kitted out bargeLord is 255-285 and you can fill up the points differential with arrow, phylactery, etc.

The easiest way to keep on top of all these codexes is to use BattleScribe.

Your argument seems to be that an invul save on a chariot is outrageous. Well, the existence of Logan directly disagrees with that summation.

One can argue that it is easier to kill Logan than it is to kill a bargelord. AV13 vs AV12. Lack of MSS and only a 4++ on Logan means that he usually won't survive as long as a bargelord against many foes.

More importantly, Logan cannot get back up on a 4+.....



Automatically Appended Next Post:

BTW, here are some stats for you. How many melta shots (from marines) does it take to kill Logan versus a bargelord? Assuming all shots are allocated on the characters as opposed to the chariots:

Logan (4W, 4++) = 14.4 shots

Bargelord (3W, 3++) = 16.2 shots


Thus, against AP1/2 non-S10 shots, the bargelord is slightly more resilient, requiring 1.8 more shots to down than Logan.

 jy2 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Logan is a unique choice, though, and I don't know how they compare points wise; I'd imagine he's quite more expensive. Not up-to-date with 7th rules, help a brotha out.

You can fully kit out a bargeLord and get them equal or similar in points. Logan is 320. A competition kitted out bargeLord is 255-285 and you can fill up the points differential with arrow, phylactery, etc.

The easiest way to keep on top of all these codexes is to use BattleScribe.

Your argument seems to be that an invul save on a chariot is outrageous. Well, the existence of Logan directly disagrees with that summation.

One can argue that it is easier to kill Logan than it is to kill a bargelord. AV13 vs AV12. Lack of MSS and only a 4++ on Logan means that he usually won't survive as long as a bargelord against many foes.

More importantly, Logan cannot get back up on a 4+.....

People are hard countering the bargeLord by instant killing him or tarpitting. The smash attack of any monstrous creature can insta gib the bargeLord. You can't instant kill Logan (outside of a D weapon) and you can't tarpit him anywhere nearly as easily. Logan's damage output is much greater than the bargeLord and he can plow through most any tarpit. He has 9 attacks base! And pile-in shenanigans! Plus, once you take the quantum shields down, the bargeLord goes down REALLY fast so it's not like the bargeLord has a firm AV13 compared to Logan's actually immutable and glance-only AV12. Those quantum shields do go down. The bargeLord relies heavily on MSS in CC to keep tactically effective and good opponents are able to minimize the impact of MSS - further leveling the comparison when dealing with good opponents. Sure the bargeLord can get up on a 4+ with 1 hit point but that's just FNP activated on a wound that would kill. Reanimation is misperceived as stronger than it actually is. Put the bargeLord up against a wraithknight and grimnar up against a wraithknight and see who comes out victorious. Put a bargeLord and grimnar up against blobs of anything and see who comes out victorious.

As you note, the bargeLord has a modest edge against Logan in terms of survivability until we get to weapons that instant kill, S10, or CC attacks with armourbane or tankhunter or smash or their ilk, or attacks that can hit the bargeLord from behind. Once we get into weapons like that, the bargeLord goes down really fast and hard and Logan shows his true resilience against just about anything you throw against him. Logan's damage output is 3-4 times as much as the bargeLords! This is huge! Not only does this increased damage output boost his overall survivability by removing threats, this enables Logan to plow through the tarpits that would effectively "kill" the bargeLord. Even if S10 or cc attacks with armourbane are rare, just about any army with a good general can tarpit the bargeLord.

Plus, something that is hard to quantify is Logan's ability to access his full 7 effective wounds (4 wounds + 3 hull points). If someone shoots a s9 (or s8) attack on the bargeLord, you pretty much have to choose to tank that on the rider profile since you can get penetrated, which will take the AV13 down and threaten an instant kill. This means you seldom have access to more than 3 effective wounds. Logan can easily tank s8 or s9 or s10 on the vehicle profile since without fail he only ever risks 1 hull point. Ever. With Logan you have access to 7 wounds always. The bargeLord on the other hand can go down in 1 hit!

 IHateNids wrote:
10 Scarabs run to 150 points, and a Serpent runs to 210 decked out.

While yes, they are insta-gibbed by all the weapons the Serpent totes, the Serpent would have to not move to bring them all to bear. If that happens, if even a single scarab survives, and they can take armour against the shield and scatter laser, the odds show that the Serpent is most likely dead by the end of the next turn.

Listen, I play Wave Serpents, and I tell you two WS will get rid of the 10 scarabs unless they have ruins + night fighting stealth.
I know you don't get it, but I calculated it, I playtested it, try to run the numbers, I think you'll get it. Instant Death.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frozocrone wrote:

morgoth wrote:
The one big threat to Wave Serpents is assault. Assault from anything, even a TAC marine squad will melt Wave Serpents. Even the turn after it landed with a drop pod, at which time it rapid fired in the rear of that Wave Serpent.

How do you propose Necrons, predominately a shooty race, get into CC with it?

That part is simple, no matter the army.

If you want CC, you just need to restrict your opponent.

As a Necron, that means advancing on him from the front, and invasion beaming warriors up close.

For a shooty race, every model will still get 2 S4 attacks on the charge, base troops glance on a 6.

col_impact wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Logan is a unique choice, though, and I don't know how they compare points wise; I'd imagine he's quite more expensive. Not up-to-date with 7th rules, help a brotha out.

You can fully kit out a bargeLord and get them equal or similar in points. Logan is 320. A competition kitted out bargeLord is 255-285 and you can fill up the points differential with arrow, phylactery, etc.

The easiest way to keep on top of all these codexes is to use BattleScribe.

Your argument seems to be that an invul save on a chariot is outrageous. Well, the existence of Logan directly disagrees with that summation.

One can argue that it is easier to kill Logan than it is to kill a bargelord. AV13 vs AV12. Lack of MSS and only a 4++ on Logan means that he usually won't survive as long as a bargelord against many foes.

More importantly, Logan cannot get back up on a 4+.....

People are hard countering the bargeLord by instant killing him or tarpitting. The smash attack of any monstrous creature can insta gib the bargeLord. You can't instant kill Logan (outside of a D weapon) and you can't tarpit him anywhere nearly as easily. Logan's damage output is much greater than the bargeLord and he can plow through most any tarpit. He has 9 attacks base! And pile-in shenanigans! Plus, once you take the quantum shields down, the bargeLord goes down REALLY fast so it's not like the bargeLord has a firm AV13 compared to Logan's actually immutable and glance-only AV12. Those quantum shields do go down. The bargeLord relies heavily on MSS in CC to keep tactically effective and good opponents are able to minimize the impact of MSS - further leveling the comparison when dealing with good opponents. Sure the bargeLord can get up on a 4+ with 1 hit point but that's just FNP activated on a wound that would kill. Reanimation is misperceived as stronger than it actually is. Put the bargeLord up against a wraithknight and grimnar up against a wraithknight and see who comes out victorious. Put a bargeLord and grimnar up against blobs of anything and see who comes out victorious.

As you note, the bargeLord has a modest edge against Logan in terms of survivability until we get to weapons that instant kill, S10, or CC attacks with armourbane or tankhunter or smash or their ilk, or attacks that can hit the bargeLord from behind. Once we get into weapons like that, the bargeLord goes down really fast and hard and Logan shows his true resilience against just about anything you throw against him. Logan's damage output is 3-4 times as much as the bargeLords! This is huge! Not only does this increased damage output boost his overall survivability by removing threats, this enables Logan to plow through the tarpits that would effectively "kill" the bargeLord. Even if S10 or cc attacks with armourbane are rare, just about any army with a good general can tarpit the bargeLord.

Plus, something that is hard to quantify is Logan's ability to access his full 7 effective wounds (4 wounds + 3 hull points). If someone shoots a s9 (or s8) attack on the bargeLord, you pretty much have to choose to tank that on the rider profile since you can get penetrated, which will take the AV13 down and threaten an instant kill. This means you seldom have access to more than 3 effective wounds. Logan can easily tank s8 or s9 or s10 on the vehicle profile since without fail he only ever risks 1 hull point. Ever. With Logan you have access to 7 wounds always. The bargeLord on the other hand can go down in 1 hit!

Actually, it's more like 6 Wounds for Logan. As soon as he loses 2 HP's from the chariot, he's going to have to start allocating wounds to himself and not his ride.

Not a lot of races can insta-kill a bargelord. Basically from range, you've got wraithknights and vindicators as probably the most common units. It's only when you get to assault where S10 matters, that is, if the attacker can get pass Mindshackles. And Smash attacks isn't reliable at all. You need to pass MSS, hit and then get pass the Lord's 3++. Not very reliable indeed, unless you are a dreadknight or wraithknight.

Don't have the SW codex with me, but how does Logan have 9 attacks base?

4+ chance to get back up is better than no chance to get back up once your wounds go down to 0. On top of that, the bargelord could potentially get back up multiple times. Ironically enough, that is how he can get out of tarpit situations sometimes.

If you are going up against a tarpit unit, then just get out of the way. The bargelord has a specific purpose. He can tarpit the tarpit unit if the unit costs more than him. Otherwise, just zoom him 30" into the opponent's backfield to deal with units that are vulnerable to him while softening up the tarpit unit with a bunch of teslas/gauss shooting from the rest of the army.

Here's a better test. Instead of pitting a bargelord up against a wraithknight or blob and instead of pitting Logan up against a unit of 5 assault terminators or Daemon Prince, just pit the bargelord up against Logan and see who kicks whose ass. Haha....

Insta-killing weapons have a 50% or greater chance to be deflected back to the attacker thanks to Mindshackles. As for Logan, he just has to take it.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

morgoth wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:

morgoth wrote:
The one big threat to Wave Serpents is assault. Assault from anything, even a TAC marine squad will melt Wave Serpents. Even the turn after it landed with a drop pod, at which time it rapid fired in the rear of that Wave Serpent.

How do you propose Necrons, predominately a shooty race, get into CC with it?

That part is simple, no matter the army.

If you want CC, you just need to restrict your opponent.

As a Necron, that means advancing on him from the front, and invasion beaming warriors up close.

For a shooty race, every model will still get 2 S4 attacks on the charge, base troops glance on a 6.

No Necron player in their right minds would beam warriors down onto the table in the hopes to assault.....unless it is on Turn 5 and within claiming range of an objective and the game continues and they survive their opponent's shooting the next turn.

So... Is anyone rocking wraiths in 7th. Just to get back to the less contentious part of my question. I stopped playing them at the end of 6th as I found the weight of small arms fire around was biting me on the ass. I've noticed more CC in my local meta, but not sure if this is a local flux or something I can expect in a competitive environment...

I still run them once in a while, though if I take them, I also tend to take a Destroyer Lord as well as 1 bargelord. They can be still effective, and they do address one of the weaknesses of the bargelord, which is his lack of volume-of-attacks.

I also have another list where I run 2 bargelords and 2x5 wraiths as distraction units.

morgoth wrote:


As a Necron, that means advancing on him from the front, and invasion beaming warriors up close.

Who does not remember the most valid Necron tactic there is? Drowning his enemy in metal corpse? Space Marines tend to run in fear from a unit of 15 I2 A1 enemies.

 jy2 wrote:

No Necron player in their right minds would beam warriors down onto the table in the hopes to assault.....unless it is on Turn 5 and within claiming range of an objective and the game continues and they survive their opponent's shooting the next turn.

It's just another tool in the toolbox.

When dropping 65 points of cron warriors takes up valuable board space and presents a threat where there should be none (quasi backfield), you open up other options. Of course, after 36" movement, they're going to snap shot, but the Scythe itself is not.

Of course, counting on the warriors to win is illusory, this is about restricting enemy movement to facilitate CC.

Facilitate CC for who? Flayed ones? Both of our good assault units are very fast and very durable. You don't need to drop 5 warriors for wraiths or CCBs to punch something because anything that 5 warriors would actually be in the way of won't be getting away from either of those units. Its a waste of 65 points.

I'm interested in the "threat" a unit of 5 Necron Warriors poses. As well as "faciliating CC". For what? The 12'' moving Wraiths?

 jy2 wrote:
I still run them once in a while, though if I take them, I also tend to take a Destroyer Lord as well as 1 bargelord. They can be still effective, and they do address one of the weaknesses of the bargelord, which is his lack of volume-of-attacks.

I also have another list where I run 2 bargelords and 2x5 wraiths as distraction units.

Yep. With a D Lord was what I was thinking.

I suppose my worry is losing half my royal court. A big part of the boon is having two Stormteks in each drop squad and two Despairteks with my Deathmark unit. Really does tend to ensure the end of a knight/centurion unit or whatever it is that I need dead...

On the other hand I think a D Lord plus a CCB OLrod in a list provides a lot of other options. It's a bring your list with your army type of tournament so I don't need to decide till quite close to it.

Listen, I play Wave Serpents, and I tell you two WS will get rid of the 10 scarabs unless they have ruins + night fighting stealth.
I know you don't get it, but I calculated it, I playtested it, try to run the numbers, I think you'll get it. Instant Death.

I'm not exactly sure what point you are making here. 420 points worth of Wave Serpents will kill 150 points worth of Scarabs....grats?

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Listen, I play Wave Serpents, and I tell you two WS will get rid of the 10 scarabs unless they have ruins + night fighting stealth.
I know you don't get it, but I calculated it, I playtested it, try to run the numbers, I think you'll get it. Instant Death.

I'm not exactly sure what point you are making here. 420 points worth of Wave Serpents will kill 150 points worth of Scarabs....grats?

In one turn, making the scarabs "not a good counter" to WS.

yeah...but for the price of those WS you could almost have 30 Scarabs...

 NecronLord3 wrote:
A chariot is treated as one model, the model purchases the phase shifter. The CCB is wargear, as much as the Warscythe. That is RAW.

Then the Chariot also has a 2+ Armor save? "A model with sempiternal weave has a 2+ armour save" - RAW that means not only do I have AV13, but I ignore your missiles 5/6ths of the time anyway. And that's silly.

I never try to convince people about the 3++ and I probably won't unless the new codex specifically states that it confers the save. I like winning as much as the next guy but that's really dumb.

Requizen wrote:

 NecronLord3 wrote:
A chariot is treated as one model, the model purchases the phase shifter. The CCB is wargear, as much as the Warscythe. That is RAW.

Then the Chariot also has a 2+ Armor save? "A model with sempiternal weave has a 2+ armour save" - RAW that means not only do I have AV13, but I ignore your missiles 5/6ths of the time anyway. And that's silly.

I never try to convince people about the 3++ and I probably won't unless the new codex specifically states that it confers the save. I like winning as much as the next guy but that's really dumb.

You don't get an armor save when allocating hits against the vehicle profile, so in this case the sempiternal weave is categorically irrelevant for the vehicle profile.

Requizen wrote:

 NecronLord3 wrote:
A chariot is treated as one model, the model purchases the phase shifter. The CCB is wargear, as much as the Warscythe. That is RAW.

Then the Chariot also has a 2+ Armor save? "A model with sempiternal weave has a 2+ armour save" - RAW that means not only do I have AV13, but I ignore your missiles 5/6ths of the time anyway. And that's silly.

I never try to convince people about the 3++ and I probably won't unless the new codex specifically states that it confers the save. I like winning as much as the next guy but that's really dumb.

RAW you take Armour Saves against Wounds, not Glancing/Penetrating Hits

EDIT: Ninja'd,gah.

Requizen wrote:
Then the Chariot also has a 2+ Armor save? "A model with sempiternal weave has a 2+ armour save" - RAW that means not only do I have AV13, but I ignore your missiles 5/6ths of the time anyway. And that's silly.

Yes, it has a 2+ Armour Save.
But since you never roll to Wound, it is quite useless.

I never try to convince people about the 3++ and I probably won't unless the new codex specifically states that it confers the save. I like winning as much as the next guy but that's really dumb

Aah, okay, then don't.
Do you also refuse to convince your opponent that your weapons have a 24" range?
And why is it dumb? It's quite annoying if people use the 'WAAC'-card when all you want to do is to play by the rules as they are.

Well anyway. The UK GT is not allowing it, as I mentioned. I'm sure it'll be made clearer in the next dex. And Stormteks will probably go up in points.

So anyone else running wraiths at the moment?

And how about Pylon Star at tournaments? Has anyone taken one in a competitive setting yet?

Guy I know just won a tournament with CCBs (3++ not allowed by tournament, but taken for rider). Stormteks. D&D squads. Doom Schthe. A Barges. No ghost arks.

Are we feeling that our initial 7th edition passion for the big boats is dropping off?

Kangodo wrote:

Requizen wrote:
Then the Chariot also has a 2+ Armor save? "A model with sempiternal weave has a 2+ armour save" - RAW that means not only do I have AV13, but I ignore your missiles 5/6ths of the time anyway. And that's silly.

Yes, it has a 2+ Armour Save.
But since you never roll to Wound, it is quite useless.

Oversight on my part.

I never try to convince people about the 3++ and I probably won't unless the new codex specifically states that it confers the save. I like winning as much as the next guy but that's really dumb

Aah, okay, then don't.
Do you also refuse to convince your opponent that your weapons have a 24" range?
And why is it dumb? It's quite annoying if people use the 'WAAC'-card when all you want to do is to play by the rules as they are.

Don't be churlish. The "rules as they are" is a poor argument. You're trying to rectify rules from a 5th ed, 3 year old codex where Chariots were a completely different type of unit with a new ruleset that was designed with something else in mind when it came to the new unit type. The RAI is pretty much up in the air, and has people on both sides, even among Necron players.

It could be fully intended for the chariot to have the 3++. If GW were to clarify it in that regard I would not cry OP or anything like that. But right now, every tournament and TO I've seen has said it doesn't work like that, and the CCB is still extremely strong without it. I don't want to have to take 10-20 minutes arguing with people at my store, whom I genuinely like, to convince them to make the model that they hate the most in my force even stronger. It's not worth the time or effort and it especially isn't worth causing a tiff when 90% of the time my CCB just styles all over most armies even without being even more invincible.

I would love to have a 3++ invuln save on an AV13 vehicle. It would be just swell, and given the cost of making it, it would probably be fine. But there's no reason to fight about it unless you care more about your Barge Lord being even more powerful than he already is than you do just playing the game with people. I mean sure, if your TO just accepts it at face value, that's one thing, but arguing wording across two books and then using Logan as a corollary example is completely different and you know it.

Letting the CCB have the 3++ invul barely does anything. Against shooting you can just jink for a 4+ save (and with Solar Pulses and Night Fight its easy to make it 3+) plus you have chariot shenanigans regardless. And in combat almost all attacks are going to be at the rider because he'll be way easier to kill so the CCB well almost never need that 3++ in combat.

 CrownAxe wrote:
Letting the CCB have the 3++ invul barely does anything. Against shooting you can just jink for a 4+ save (and with Solar Pulses and Night Fight its easy to make it 3+) plus you have chariot shenanigans regardless. And in combat almost all attacks are going to be at the rider because he'll be way easier to kill so the CCB well almost never need that 3++ in combat.

In competitive play, where you see lots of Imperial Knights and wraithknight-dominated Eldar, it makes a world of difference in assault. Actually, playing without the 3++, all the attacks by those units are going to be on the barge.

 jy2 wrote:


Here's a better test. Instead of pitting a bargelord up against a wraithknight or blob and instead of pitting Logan up against a unit of 5 assault terminators or Daemon Prince, just pit the bargelord up against Logan and see who kicks whose ass. Haha....

Keep in mind one thing. As I am sure you know, a regular old Necron Overlord that is not riding a barge but is kitted with Mind Shackle Scarabs is an absolute beast in one-on-one CC with other HQ. He is able to prevail against the likes of Abaddon and just about all HQ by crutching on the power of MSS. Without MSS the Necron Overlord is much more in line with his points. So the key to beating the Necron Overlord, whether he is on or off a barge is to take MSS out of the equation. An astute general will know this and will not engage Logan with the bargeLord unless the potency of MSS can be quickly dealt with (by for example running troops in to the one-one-one combat to get into base contact with the bargeLord and thereby dilute the MSS).

Taking mindshackle scarabs out of the equation, the math lines up like this . . .

bargeLord averages 0.75 wounds or hull points per round. Takes 4 rounds to kill vehicle profile and 5 rounds to kill rider profile.

Chariot has 3++ (makes it more profitable for Logan to attack the rider profile)
Logan averages 1 wound per round of CC against the bargeLord. He kills the bargeLord in 3 rounds. 50% chance the bargeLord gets back up.

Chariot does not have 3++ (makes it more profitable for Logan to attack the vehicle profile)
Logan on average destroys the chariot in 2 rounds of CC. It's right on the cusp though of going into 3 rounds of CC with superfluous damage to finish him off. 50% chance the bargeLord gets back up.

So Logan and the bargeLord are very much in line with their points if the bargeLord has an invul save on the chariot profile. A weakness is exposed for the bargeLord if he does not have an invul save on the vehicle profile and will go down really fast to weapons that can exploit this. Chainfists and their cousins are ridiculously effective.

 jy2 wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
Letting the CCB have the 3++ invul barely does anything. Against shooting you can just jink for a 4+ save (and with Solar Pulses and Night Fight its easy to make it 3+) plus you have chariot shenanigans regardless. And in combat almost all attacks are going to be at the rider because he'll be way easier to kill so the CCB well almost never need that 3++ in combat.

In competitive play, where you see lots of Imperial Knights and wraithknight-dominated Eldar, it makes a world of difference in assault. Actually, playing without the 3++, all the attacks by those units are going to be on the barge.

Both of those units are good at killing the CCB in combat regardless of the 3++

Requizen wrote:

Kangodo wrote:

Requizen wrote:
Then the Chariot also has a 2+ Armor save? "A model with sempiternal weave has a 2+ armour save" - RAW that means not only do I have AV13, but I ignore your missiles 5/6ths of the time anyway. And that's silly.

Yes, it has a 2+ Armour Save.
But since you never roll to Wound, it is quite useless.

Oversight on my part.

I never try to convince people about the 3++ and I probably won't unless the new codex specifically states that it confers the save. I like winning as much as the next guy but that's really dumb

Aah, okay, then don't.
Do you also refuse to convince your opponent that your weapons have a 24" range?
And why is it dumb? It's quite annoying if people use the 'WAAC'-card when all you want to do is to play by the rules as they are.

Don't be churlish. The "rules as they are" is a poor argument. You're trying to rectify rules from a 5th ed, 3 year old codex where Chariots were a completely different type of unit with a new ruleset that was designed with something else in mind when it came to the new unit type. The RAI is pretty much up in the air, and has people on both sides, even among Necron players.

It could be fully intended for the chariot to have the 3++. If GW were to clarify it in that regard I would not cry OP or anything like that. But right now, every tournament and TO I've seen has said it doesn't work like that, and the CCB is still extremely strong without it. I don't want to have to take 10-20 minutes arguing with people at my store, whom I genuinely like, to convince them to make the model that they hate the most in my force even stronger. It's not worth the time or effort and it especially isn't worth causing a tiff when 90% of the time my CCB just styles all over most armies even without being even more invincible.

I would love to have a 3++ invuln save on an AV13 vehicle. It would be just swell, and given the cost of making it, it would probably be fine. But there's no reason to fight about it unless you care more about your Barge Lord being even more powerful than he already is than you do just playing the game with people. I mean sure, if your TO just accepts it at face value, that's one thing, but arguing wording across two books and then using Logan as a corollary example is completely different and you know it.

I thought exactly as you did until the Space Wolves codex came out. The Space Wolves codex provided much-needed clarification as to how chariots are to be handled. There are a whopping 3 whole chariots in the world of 40k and the Space Wolves codex is the first we see that was written entirely for 7th edition. With fresh eyes looking at chariots after reading the Space Wolves codex you will arrive at a different conclusion regarding the phase shifter. TOs and the community at large may be entrenched in their views on the issue (views that were solidified prior to the Space Wolves codex) and it may be unpopular to go against that view, but its clear to me what is RAW and RAI on the matter and how necron players should play it unless instructed otherwise by a TO who now has a house rule that power level edits the bargeLord rather than RAW or RAI justification.

 CrownAxe wrote:
Letting the CCB have the 3++ invul barely does anything. Against shooting you can just jink for a 4+ save (and with Solar Pulses and Night Fight its easy to make it 3+) plus you have chariot shenanigans regardless. And in combat almost all attacks are going to be at the rider because he'll be way easier to kill so the CCB well almost never need that 3++ in combat.

Saying a 4+ is the same as a 3+ is absurd. I'm sure all Space Marines would be fine if suddenly they only had Scout saves, or Terminators down to Space Marine saves. It's a huge jump, not to mention thanks to things like Tau and Eldar, Jink is hampered by Ignores Cover.

As for combat, anything with S8 or higher (or Smash, or an Armorbane weapon, or Melta Bombs, or Power Klaws/Fists) can just choose to punch the chariot instead, since no saves and Open Topped means it's not exactly difficult to kill. Especially if it loses Quantum Shielding, then S6 can pen it.

It's a huge improvement to have a vehicle shrug off on a 3+ against both shooting and assault, especially when the rider is an Overlord.

Requizen wrote:

As for combat, anything with S8 or higher (or Smash, or an Armorbane weapon, or Melta Bombs, or Power Klaws/Fists) can just choose to punch the chariot instead, since no saves and Open Topped means it's not exactly difficult to kill. Especially if it loses Quantum Shielding, then S6 can pen it.

The most accurate way of looking at it is that without the 3++ on the chariot the bargeLord is zooming around with a huge achilles heel and can get suckerpunched and you lose all those points. But with the 3++ on the chariot he is zooming around without an achilles heel and his survivability is in line with his points.

Requizen wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
Letting the CCB have the 3++ invul barely does anything. Against shooting you can just jink for a 4+ save (and with Solar Pulses and Night Fight its easy to make it 3+) plus you have chariot shenanigans regardless. And in combat almost all attacks are going to be at the rider because he'll be way easier to kill so the CCB well almost never need that 3++ in combat.

Saying a 4+ is the same as a 3+ is absurd. I'm sure all Space Marines would be fine if suddenly they only had Scout saves, or Terminators down to Space Marine saves. It's a huge jump, not to mention thanks to things like Tau and Eldar, Jink is hampered by Ignores Cover.

When the CCB is already AV13 and can move any actual anti-tank shot on to the 2+/3++ rider, 4+ jink from 3++ is a drop in the bucket of the CCB not getting killed via shooting.

As for combat, anything with S8 or higher (or Smash, or an Armorbane weapon, or Melta Bombs, or Power Klaws/Fists) can just choose to punch the chariot instead, since no saves and Open Topped means it's not exactly difficult to kill. Especially if it loses Quantum Shielding, then S6 can pen it.

It's a huge improvement to have a vehicle shrug off on a 3+ against both shooting and assault, especially when the rider is an Overlord.

Anything S8-9 is going to still have trouble actually hurting AV13 (when they could just wound the lord on 2+) and S10 should hit the lord because you instant death (instead of penning on 4+ and trying to roll 5+ to explode it). Seriously only melta bombs, haywire, and armorbane make it matter but those aren't very common in combat. A CCB should be more afraid of getting tarpitted by pretty much anything because those are what actually kill the CCB and having a 3++ does nothing to stop that.

 CrownAxe wrote:
Anything S8-9 is going to still have trouble actually hurting AV13 (when they could just wound the lord on 2+) and S10 should hit the lord because you instant death (instead of penning on 4+ and trying to roll 5+ to explode it). Seriously only melta bombs, haywire, and armorbane make it matter but those aren't very common in combat. A CCB should be more afraid of getting tarpitted by pretty much anything because those are what actually kill the CCB and having a 3++ does nothing to stop that.

See my analysis above. Str 8 ap2 is more effectively applied against the vehicle profile than against the rider profile if the vehicle profile does not have an invul save. Logan will finish off the bargeLord in 2 rounds of CC on average by applying hits to the vehicle profile which is better than the 3 rounds average required to finish off the rider profile. If Logan were swinging a s9 ap2 axe around, the chariot profile is on the borderline averages-wise of going down in 1 round of CC (just as likely to go into a 2nd round of CC and do superfluous damage on that round). You probably aren't factoring in the AV13 going down to any pen and the ID possible with any pen. Once AV13 goes down it's quick work since its all AV11 from there.

Logan gets a beast and gets a ton of attacks so of course he's going to drop a CCB very quickly. S8-10 isn't just walking around in large quantities in every unit of the game. Its not very common meaning the instances where the 3++ not being on the CCB mattering isn't common either.

 CrownAxe wrote:
Logan gets a beast and gets a ton of attacks so of course he's going to drop a CCB very quickly. S8-10 isn't just walking around in large quantities in every unit of the game. Its not very common meaning the instances where the 3++ not being on the CCB mattering isn't common either.

I am just saying s8 ap2 applied to a chariot without an invul save outperforms a s8 ap2 applied to the rider with an invul save.

Chainfists (s8, ap2 armourbane) and their cousins are ridiculously effective at taking down a necron chariot by cutting through the chariot profile like butter if it doesn't have an invul save. Logan handles those attacks with ease since for him all pens are superfluous.


I do agree with you that s10 ap2 is better applied against the rider, but it's just slightly better. Jy2, would you care to comment? Maybe you should double check this and advise the WK players to instead punch the rider for a slight boost in effectiveness.