So, it may be ever so slightly premature since everybody is just getting their hands on the rules today, but I thought it might be a good time to jump into how we think Necrons will transition into 7th edition. I know there have been some sporadic posts on the few unique changes we have received, but consolidating everything into one post is likely easier to sort through.
So, a few changes I can think off the top of my head is:
The Royal Court Disco Inferno has been buffed. As a scoring, counter death star, I could see this rising to the challenge to the new ones we see in 7th. Especially with the recent loss of the Spyder star.
New chariot rules making the CCB relevant again. It's not a pretty decent "Walker" equivalent. I think of it now as the Necron Maulerfiend, just with better armor, MSS and the ability to flat out.
Ghost Ark got better, just on the fact last minute objective grabs aren't the name of the game anymore. They have a lot more board control, and can put out a ton of small arms fire in rapid fire range. Plus, the change to the damage table really helped us, and the Jink change. Yeah we snap fire when we jink, but I can see Stalkers working in tandem with them to minimize the damage that does.
This was also a slight improvement to both the DDA and Monolith due to the damage table. Monoliths are now a lot harder to kill. I can see them being used in an effort at board control as well, especially since MCs are going to have a much more difficult time killing them in CC. With exception of Wraithknights.
Doom Scythes may have also gotten better, just in the fact if there is a shift to vehicle heavy lists, particularly AV14, we need all the AP1 we can get.
Wraiths are scoring too. That's always a plus.
I'm sure there are others, but that's all I can think of right now. I'm curious as to how our lists will be built now. Do we take less troops now, and more killy, or less killy and more troops? We are lucky to have multifaceted troops choices, so if vehicle spam is the new thing, we can deal with it a little easier than others.
The Necrons pretty much just got flat out better in the new edition, perhaps not quite to the extent that we did in 6e, but improvements are seen all around.
I see us rising to further prominence in the competetive gaming scene.
Sigvatr wrote: Sentry Pylons with Gauss got a huge nerf, making the Gauss the worst option now. Take the focussed ray instead.
Imotekh got nerfed too with the Night Fight changes.
Spyders + scoring swarms are ridiculous.
Anrakyr's Mind in the Machine ability is even worse than before as you can no longer use it after disembarking from a CCB.
Gotta take a few hits here and there, but mostly things seem to be better.
Necron scoring power is downright beastly now. Especially given our deceptive maneuverability (still see people on vassal thinking that the Necrons are slow lol).
Sigvatr wrote: I do hope that Sentries get FAQ'd by FW. I don't want to start fielding flyers to get reliable AA. I hate Necron flyers, they are so darn unfitting.
I'm sure they will.
I'd hate to see other units suffer Hydra syndrome.
I'd almost say that Imotek is essentially a wash. No matter what you are getting a +1 to your cover save. Night fighting for us was not as a big of a benefit since we were fighting in the premier range (12-24") and if anyone was within 12, we lost the bonus for night fighting. Not anymore, which is I think is nice, even if we lose the bonus for shrouded.
Ha, I had forgot about the Spyer/Scarab combo. That is a good point. That's ridiculous.
I'm hoping they'll do something about the MiTM ability so we can use it on the CCB...but we've been wishing that for how long?
Two combos that have a very high resiliency and are ideal at sitting on objectives, both are viable at taking out enemy armor. Taking out a fearless unit of never-ending scarabs sounds like fun Be wary of templates, though, and hug cover as hard as you can to avoid getting insta-gibbed.
Add in some Tesla (AB, Nightscythes) to deal with infantry and Zahndrekh and you got a pretty good list.
Ghost Ark got better, just on the fact last minute objective grabs aren't the name of the game anymore. They have a lot more board control, and can put out a ton of small arms fire in rapid fire range. Plus, the change to the damage table really helped us, and the Jink change. Yeah we snap fire when we jink, but I can see Stalkers working in tandem with them to minimize the damage that does.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the changes to the movement rules make it almost impossible to move the Ghost Ark in anything other than a straight line (without crossing in to Cruising Speed)?
I loved CCBs in 6th and thought that they were one of the most underrated units in the game. Now they're just plain better. I expect a lot of people to start using them now.
CCB is going to have to be touched up on in a FAQ, and that it could go either way makes me a bit nervous.
Since Sweeping Attack is a part of the Necron Codex, the CCB, for now, still has it. No more +1 to armor which sucks. Same for the ability to leave CC. Makes both Semp. Weave and Phase Shifter a must. No point taking Jink saves with the 2+/3++
No more emergency disembarking if the CCB gets killed, but since the rider and the chariot count as a single model, Everliving rolls bring back both the Overlord and the CCB. Res Orbs a must for the unit. Possibility of Phylactery being used to bring back HP in later combats through Symbiotic Repair is nice. All CC goes against the front armor now, so that's good, kinda makes up for the loss of being able to leave CC.
And the ability for the player controlling the chariot to choose which attacks damage the rider or chariot means melta won't do anything since we can have it hit the Overlord to tank it with a 2+/3++, and put everything else to uselessly hit the CCB.
The Annihilation Barges, with TL Destructors can always take Jink saves, as rerolling misses to get 6's will still yield multiple hits. Ghost Ark is another one that can always take Jink, as losing out on a few flayer shots..... oh well. DDA, wasn't using Jink anyways.
wuestenfux wrote: Well, it appears that Necrons will do very well in the new edition.
Annihilation Barges become tougher but have less damage output which is not a bad trade off.
Only very slightly less damage.
TL Tesla really doesn't care if it's snap shotting or not. It only averages out to a drop of one BS value equivalence in terms of average number of hits.
wuestenfux wrote: Well, it appears that Necrons will do very well in the new edition.
Annihilation Barges become tougher but have less damage output which is not a bad trade off.
Only very slightly less damage.
TL Tesla really doesn't care if it's snap shotting or not. It only averages out to a drop of one BS value equivalence in terms of average number of hits.
Indeed, this is very good news for Necron players.
A standard list with DLord, Wraiths, troops in Nightscythes, and Annihilation Barges should be a little bit more resiliant with an almost equal damage output.
The CCB still isn't good. If it loses Sweeping Attacks, it's useless again.
2 main problems.
A) It's a HQ pick (and often even the General)
B) It's very expensive.
A CCB comes at 180 points at the very least. This is huge. Add a Regeneration Orb and you're at 210. We're in Landraider territory here. You really want the Phaseshifter, so...hi Landraider.
In return you get a chariot that is good against vehicles but will be in trouble pretty easily in melee due to special weapons etc.
~250 points is, in my opinion, way too expensive for what it has to offer. Necrons have access to multiple more effective ways to counter enemy armor either by glancing to death with Gauss or using specialized long range weapons such as Sentry Pylons (Death Ray until FAQ'd).
Sigvatr wrote: The CCB still isn't good. If it loses Sweeping Attacks, it's useless again.
2 main problems.
A) It's a HQ pick (and often even the General)
B) It's very expensive.
A CCB comes at 180 points at the very least. This is huge. Add a Regeneration Orb and you're at 210. We're in Landraider territory here. You really want the Phaseshifter, so...hi Landraider.
In return you get a chariot that is good against vehicles but will be in trouble pretty easily in melee due to special weapons etc.
~250 points is, in my opinion, way too expensive for what it has to offer. Necrons have access to multiple more effective ways to counter enemy armor either by glancing to death with Gauss or using specialized long range weapons such as Sentry Pylons (Death Ray until FAQ'd).
True, however you get to choose what weapons hit which: the rider or the chariot.
They've got a metla? Hit's the Overlord and he either makes the save or loses a wound. 18 Bolter rounds? Hello AV 13.
The unit has massive versatility. Yeah it's going to do poorly against certain weapons, but the same can be said for the regular Overlord on foot. That extra 80 points allows for so much more tactical options, and helps save an Overlord from one of the biggest things that kills it: mass fire.
A melta would ID a regular Overlord as they most often come at S10.
An Overlord on foot serves a different role.
An Overlord on a CCB is an offensive unit whereas an Overlord on foot us supposed to support your regular infantry by increasing their cc abilities and resilience (ResOrb).
Nobody would ever field a single Overlord on foot without a unit to back him up.
A CCB doesn't offer more tactical options; in the contrary, it limits you to one option, as you can no longer disembark.
Don't get me wrong - it's a good unit. But at ~250 points, it's too expensive.
Sigvatr wrote: A melta would ID a regular Overlord as they most often come at S10.
An Overlord on foot serves a different role.
An Overlord on a CCB is an offensive unit whereas an Overlord on foot us supposed to support your regular infantry by increasing their cc abilities and resilience (ResOrb).
Nobody would ever field a single Overlord on foot without a unit to back him up.
A CCB doesn't offer more tactical options; in the contrary, it limits you to one option, as you can no longer disembark.
Don't get me wrong - it's a good unit. But at ~250 points, it's too expensive.
Most meltaguns only have S8 FYI.
Our meltacannon is just better than those of other more primitive races.
Because they are now scoring, they have more utility and they have the sniper special rule and can rapid fire. So, it doesn't matter what the strength of the target model is, you wound on a 4+ (2+ if you marked it). And you can deep strike them onto the board during the OPPONENT phase.
So, if you are playing a maelstrom of war mission, if the opponent brings anything in from reserve, you can deepstrike your scoring deathmarks onto any objective to deny it to them, in their turn (assuming it isn't held by battleforged troop choices).
Finally, ethereal interception makes some sense - not a lot, but some.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And, teleporting immortals are also more useful in a battleforged list, because they have S5 weapons and objective secured.
Don't forget that templates do D6 wounds at their str. and AP against open top vehicles so beware heavy flamer or heldrakes against your ghost arks moving forward in 7th.
I'm curious how things are going to be in the psychic phase. If I remember right, us and Tau, dont have any, which means all we get is whats rolled on the dice for dispels. Gonna make it tough to be able to deal with opponents psychic phase.
Or maybe I am missing something, and its not going to be as bad as I am seeing it right now.
Played a game today, not with my necrons, but with my Imperial Fists, I had one psycher, he had Sisters with inquisition allies, so had total of 4 extra dice. So its close to what I would go against with my necrons, one less dice. Was difficult to stop any of his spells.
But like I said, maybe missing something. Havent been paying attention to the boards lately.
No, you aren't missing anything. The psychic phase is pretty much a waste of time unless the oppo rolls a six for the number of dice.
However, you can get lucky and it's nice to have any involvement at all tbh. I'm trying to find out what Gloom Prisms do now, they may give a +1 to roll (or +1 dice) in which case a scattering of spyders with prisms and fabricator claws may be helpful.
Not being able to stop summoning is a pita, because all these additional units appear. Most of them a fortunately quite squishy (bloodletters etc) but the Incursion spell is nasty.
If you're worried about summoning, ally in some grey knights.
A dreadnought with true silver armor is funny.
Every time a daemon or psyker hits it, they take a S6 hit.
I'm considering running 6 dreadnoughts just to slap around those summoned daemons (and 24 S8 rending twin-linked shots sounds good too).
Necrons actually got a huge, boost to their defense against assault.
Why?
You charge now -2 in Difficult Terrain
You can do Combined Arms to get multiple courts
Take a Harbinger of Transmorgrification
Take the Staff
Take Seismic Crucible
This is not expensive under 50 points
Why? Because first if you are in Terrain they get a -2 + D3 to their charge range. If you shoot them with the staff, they treat open ground as difficult terrain.
So? It's still a pretty awesome unit now. I didn't say take a thousand of them. Necron Lords on CCBs got a huge boost right now as 1. They're scoring 2. All the crappy rules went away.
Previously you could not issue Challenges from a Chariot for whatever reason, I think people forgot that, and now they can be locked in Combat. So you don't have to worry about failing in CC and then having their army turn and blow you away or them just leaving combat and all kinds of weird things.
Chariots got a really huge boost
This is my current army I'm working on with Combined Arms
1 Necron Overlord w/ CCB , Fixings
5 Warriors
5 Warriors
Fast Attack
5 Scarabs
5 Scarabs
H. Support
1 Spyders x3
1 Spyders x 3
1 Spyders x 3
2nd FOC Destroyer Lord
Troops
5 Warriors
5 Warriors
F Attack
Wraiths
H.Support
A Barge
A Barge
A Barge
Unbound frees you from FOC restrictions, not from unit limits.
Just like you cant bring farsight's bodyguards without farsight, or add additional sternguard to a tactical squad, the overlord is a requirement for the cohort.
BoomWolf wrote: Unbound frees you from FOC restrictions, not from unit limits.
Just like you cant bring farsight's bodyguards without farsight, or add additional sternguard to a tactical squad, the overlord is a requirement for the cohort.
Can you quote rulebook reference for that please. I haven't found anything that says you have to comply with codex rules in an unbound list.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Actually, I don't want to derail the thread, so I'll go to YMDC.
Objective secured matters. With the ability to have 3 or 4 overlords in any game that means warrior squads can go to majority t5 by attaching 3 or 4 lords into the squad.
Ghost arks are open topped and very durable now. Necrons can now go full assault with CC disco inferno + wraiths/scarabs all in with the entire army
BoomWolf wrote: Unbound frees you from FOC restrictions, not from unit limits.
Just like you cant bring farsight's bodyguards without farsight, or add additional sternguard to a tactical squad, the overlord is a requirement for the cohort.
Can you quote rulebook reference for that please. I haven't found anything that says you have to comply with codex rules in an unbound list.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Actually, I don't want to derail the thread, so I'll go to YMDC.
Its not derailing, I'm just explaining you why your "strategy" is illegal.
Unbound, to begin with, is just an alternative to the force org chart, and nowhere under it's rules does it give you permission to ignore the limitations in the codices themselves, the court has such in-codex limitation, you need an overlord in order to get a court, one court per overlord, and no duplicate cryptek toys in a court.
I'm most concerned about the Psychic phase right now.
I think we improved in some areas, but we still have some the major weaknesses we did in sixth.
Shooting FMCs are better, and are better at killing our flyers now. On the bright side, if they decide to swoop first turn, it gives us until turn 3 before we have to worry about assault.
I'm hoping for a FAQ of the Sentry pylon, as it sucks right now. The Heat Cannon is still too expensive. Focused Deathray is the choice for sentry pylons.
Monsterous creatures only having one smash attack makes the Tomb Stalker a little better, as before it was an auto loss vs most MCs. Now it's a bit better with them needing a 5+ to wound it for most attacks.
The new FOC is a major boon, but this is a bit of wash since it's a major boon to everyone.
Ancanthries are still the best unit in our arsenal when combined with a Dlord. The changes to smash means they make premeir MC hunters now, in addition to being amazing vs vehicles and standard units.
With the changes to CCB, and Smash, Kutlakh in a CCB is going to be an excellent MC and Multi-wound unit hunter. Used to, he was in danger of a lot of ID attacks. Now, not so much. With typical MCStr 6 attacks being unable to hurt the CCB and him having ID he is going to be pretty beastly. He's also going to be excellent against Plague Drones and other units like that.
New Vehicle rules make the Tesseract Ark a bit hardier. Blasts got a lot more useful.
I see a lot of Necron lists allying in Bel'akor and a unit of cultisits now.
Of course, the T-Shard with 2x WoW is still the best thing since sliced bread. His Hellstorm Templates ignore cover still, and even taking invul saves are not going to save you from the massive amount of wounds/HP inflicted.
Edit again:
With the new Vehicle durability, depnding on how the Meta shifts, we may see a return of Heat-Ray Stalkers.
Question for those with the book. Are the rules for the Transcendent C'Tan in the main book, or would I still need the Escalation book for those rules?
Anpu-adom wrote: Question for those with the book. Are the rules for the Transcendent C'Tan in the main book, or would I still need the Escalation book for those rules?
I would get the apoc book for the rules, as it contains a lot of other weapons. The new rules for D weapons are in the main rule book as well.
Anpu-adom wrote: Question for those with the book. Are the rules for the Transcendent C'Tan in the main book, or would I still need the Escalation book for those rules?
I would get the apoc book for the rules, as it contains a lot of other weapons. The new rules for D weapons are in the main rule book as well.
Do these rule override the rules for D weapons in the Apoc or Escalation book?
Anpu-adom wrote: Question for those with the book. Are the rules for the Transcendent C'Tan in the main book, or would I still need the Escalation book for those rules?
I would get the apoc book for the rules, as it contains a lot of other weapons. The new rules for D weapons are in the main rule book as well.
Do these rule override the rules for D weapons in the Apoc or Escalation book?
The Main rulebook are the newest rules, so they would override older version of D weapons.
It really doesn't affect the Wave of Withering that much honestly. It still ignores cover saves since it's a Hellstorm Template, and It does D3 wounds with instant death on a 2-5, which will likely result in at least a single failed invul,
Anpu-adom wrote: Question for those with the book. Are the rules for the Transcendent C'Tan in the main book, or would I still need the Escalation book for those rules?
The actual stats for the Lords of War are found in the appropriate expansion book(s), but all the rules to use them are now found in the rulebook. Same goes for fortifications.
Necron 7th changes buff (+) / nerf (-) / same (=) / not sure (?)
Spoiler:
HQ Imotekh -- (making it night fight is no longer as cool for us)
Zandrekh + (tank hunters/counter attack/etc. even more useful)
Obyron +++ (ghostwalk onto an unclaimed objective, steal the win... FROM COMBAT)
Orikan ? (???)
Anrakyr - (now can't jump out of Command Barge and use MitM... hopefully they FAQ this)
Szeras ? (???)
Trazyn -- (he scores... so does everything else)
Overlord = (same?)
Destroyer Lord = (same?)
Lord ? (increased potential for Royal Court Disco Inferno shenanigans... I think)
Cryptek = (still good source of cheap AP3)
H. Despair ++ (veil onto an unclaimed objective, steal the win)
H. Destruction + (need more AP2 for blowing things up)
H. Eternity = (same?)
H. Storm + (haywire still the best anti-AV tool we've got)
H. Trans ? (slowing down fast units now important?)
TROOP / TRANSPORT Warrior = (replenishable objective secured guys)
Immortal = (same?)
Nightscythe = (about the same. Do fliers score?)
Ghost Ark ++ (scoring, jink, a lot harder to explode, plus replenish them objective secured guys)
Command Barge + (lost a bunch of things, gained a bunch of things)
ELITES Deathmark ++ (deep striking scoring, plus still our best anti-MC/deathstar squad)
Lychguard ? (???)
Preatorian ? (deep striking scoring?)
C’tan ? (???)
Flayed One + (outflanking/deep striking scoring?)
Stalker + (melta might be needed more)
FAST Wraith + (and now they score)
Scarabs +++ (scoring replenishable swarms? are you kidding?!)
Destroyer + (jink might help keep them alive longer)
Heavy D. + (need that AP1 more now)
Tomb Blade +++ (jet bikes score)
HEAVY Spyder ? (no more SpyderStar, but now Scarab Farm might be more viable. Plus psychic defense will be important... once we see what the FAQ says)
Annihilation Barge + (jinking results in snap shots, twin linked Tesla doesn't mind)
Doom Scythe + (we may need more AP1 to remove certain tough vehicles)
Doom Ark ? (???)
Monolith ++ (much more survivable)
Anything need to be changed? (if so, why?)
(and feel free to add the superheavies/FW units as well, anyone)
Night Scythes taken for troops will count as troop units, but only hovering flyers (and gliding FMCs) can score. So, while they are scoring.... they'll never be able to score.
- CCB getting another big buff: Weapon Destroyed = Crew Stunned => Living Metal = 50% chance to ignore. Basically, you can only destroy the CCB by penetrating or glancing to death. Anything else will hardly do anything.
CCB keeps it awesome sweep attacks.
CCB seems to be viable now.
- Spyders getting a good Gloom Prism buff: +2 to DtW. Sadly does nothing vs. blessings.
- CCB getting another big buff: Weapon Destroyed = Crew Stunned => Living Metal = 50% chance to ignore. Basically, you can only destroy the CCB by penetrating or glancing to death. Anything else will hardly do anything.
CCB keeps it awesome sweep attacks.
CCB seems to be viable now.
- Spyders getting a good Gloom Prism buff: +2 to DtW. Sadly does nothing vs. blessings.
It depends on your opponent. He excels vs any kind of MC - ID on each and every attack, including the Sweeping Attacks, is huge. Against everything else, he doesn't seem too amazing to me.
Sigvatr wrote: It depends on your opponent. He excels vs any kind of MC - ID on each and every attack, including the Sweeping Attacks, is huge. Against everything else, he doesn't seem too amazing to me.
He is excellent against MCs, Multi-wound units, and a good deal of characters.
This includes things like Plague Drones, Centurions, Monstrous creatures. He has a very wide range of uses. He isn't that good against Horde, that's it really. He'll chop down scoring units, and he can sweep attack with an AP 2 ID weapon.
He's also a beatstick in challenges due to Splinter of Madness, and you can make challenges from a Chariot now.
Oh, never doubted that. The downside is that you pay a good price for his abilities and he is only better vs. enemies with 3+ wounds compared to a regular Overlord, yet he is a lot worse vs. vehicles. Additional d3 for sweeping is very good.
I might actually give him a chance now. 300 pts is tough though.
Sigvatr wrote: Spyders getting a good Gloom Prism buff: +2 to DtW. Sadly does nothing vs. blessings.
Still better than the FAQ for Tyranids Shadow in the Warp, which doesn't exist. I guess all they get is a leadership penalty, which only effects some results on the Perils of the Warp chart. At least Gloom Prism gives some direct countering effect.
Sigvatr wrote: Oh, never doubted that. The downside is that you pay a good price for his abilities and he is only better vs. enemies with 3+ wounds compared to a regular Overlord, yet he is a lot worse vs. vehicles. Additional d3 for sweeping is very good.
I might actually give him a chance now. 300 pts is tough though.
It is, but I find MCs tend to be something that I've struggled with in the past. This is a clean solution to dealing with them, IMO.
I have no idea why they changed it, really makes me wonder. All named characters are / were pretty mediocre anyway with the exception of Zahndrekh who would never be placed on a CCB anyway. Weird.
Sigvatr wrote: I have no idea why they changed it, really makes me wonder. All named characters are / were pretty mediocre anyway with the exception of Zahndrekh who would never be placed on a CCB anyway. Weird.
There's a dude at GW that couldn't figure out how to beat his friend, who always threw Arankyr in a CCB???
I know I always threw Arankyr in a CCB, so often infact that I magnetized him to be able to take off his base and attach him to the CCB.
But now that he can't go in a CCB, meh.
Also, the fact that the CCB itself goes away if the OL dies doesn't make a ton of sense to me as it still has a weapon and a crew that could still fly it around.
If the CCB is reduced to 0 hull points or is otherwise destroyed then the Overlord auto dies with it regardless of his wounds. If the Overlord is reduced to 0 wounds then the CCB is auto wrecked regardless of how many hull points it had left.
Then Phylactery would add wounds back to the lord, for instance regaining them all, but is then auto killed again when the now AV11 barge is harmed in any way?
If the CCB is reduced to 0 hull points or is otherwise destroyed then the Overlord auto dies with it regardless of his wounds. If the Overlord is reduced to 0 wounds then the CCB is auto wrecked regardless of how many hull points it had left.
Then Phylactery would add wounds back to the lord, for instance regaining them all, but is then auto killed again when the now AV11 barge is harmed in any way?
Is that correct?
Bassicaly, if the CCB is wrecked/Exploded or the Overlord loses all of his wounds, you then place it on it's side and roll for Reanimation protocols. If it makes it, it gets back up with 1W/HP remaning. RAI, if it had a Phlactery, if it passed that first test it would get back up with D3 HP/W remaining instead of 1.
Just checked the FAQ. It's considerably shorter than it was previously. I haven't finished reading 7th yet, but can I assume everything missing from the Necron FAQ has been cleared up in the new rule book?
MoonlightSonata wrote: So the rider and the chariot itself share the same pool of wounds? In this case 3?
Hmm. Not bad if you can keep the shields up by tanking S8+ things on the lord
Yep, since you allocate how shooting wounds go, you simply put everything that bust the QS on the Overlord, and let things like bolters patter harmlessly off the AV 13 front.
Sasori wrote: Bassicaly, if the CCB is wrecked/Exploded or the Overlord loses all of his wounds, you then place it on it's side and roll for Reanimation protocols. If it makes it, it gets back up with 1W/HP remaning. RAI, if it had a Phlactery, if it passed that first test it would get back up with D3 HP/W remaining instead of 1.
I wouldn't have thought so. Phylacteries have rules for restoring wounds, but don't say anything about Hull Points, so I'd assume that a successful Phylactery test would bring the OL back with D3 wounds, but the CCB would come back with what the Rulebook says it comes back with...1 HP
Sasori wrote: Bassicaly, if the CCB is wrecked/Exploded or the Overlord loses all of his wounds, you then place it on it's side and roll for Reanimation protocols. If it makes it, it gets back up with 1W/HP remaning. RAI, if it had a Phlactery, if it passed that first test it would get back up with D3 HP/W remaining instead of 1.
I wouldn't have thought so. Phylacteries have rules for restoring wounds, but don't say anything about Hull Points, so I'd assume that a successful Phylactery test would bring the OL back with D3 wounds, but the CCB would come back with what the Rulebook says it comes back with...1 HP
Well, RAW that is correct. As for RAI, I think it would be both.
Sasori wrote: Bassicaly, if the CCB is wrecked/Exploded or the Overlord loses all of his wounds, you then place it on it's side and roll for Reanimation protocols. If it makes it, it gets back up with 1W/HP remaning. RAI, if it had a Phlactery, if it passed that first test it would get back up with D3 HP/W remaining instead of 1.
I wouldn't have thought so. Phylacteries have rules for restoring wounds, but don't say anything about Hull Points, so I'd assume that a successful Phylactery test would bring the OL back with D3 wounds, but the CCB would come back with what the Rulebook says it comes back with...1 HP
Well, RAW that is correct. As for RAI, I think it would be both.
The only reason I'm inclined to disagree, is that the FAQ has so much on CCBs, it seems if they intended for Phylactery to work on CCBHP, they were looking right at the stuff, and would have said so.
skoffs wrote: Help me out here, guys. Does this look right?
Necron 7th changes buff (+) / nerf (-) / same (=) / not sure (?)
Spoiler:
HQ Imotekh -- (making it night fight is no longer as cool for us)
Zandrekh + (tank hunters/counter attack/etc. even more useful)
Obyron +++ (ghostwalk onto an unclaimed objective, steal the win... FROM COMBAT)
Orikan ? (???)
Anrakyr - (now can't jump out of Command Barge and use MitM... hopefully they FAQ this)
Szeras ? (???)
Trazyn -- (he scores... so does everything else)
Overlord = (same?)
Destroyer Lord = (same?)
Lord ? (increased potential for Royal Court Disco Inferno shenanigans... I think)
Cryptek = (still good source of cheap AP3)
H. Despair ++ (veil onto an unclaimed objective, steal the win)
H. Destruction + (need more AP2 for blowing things up)
H. Eternity = (same?)
H. Storm + (haywire still the best anti-AV tool we've got)
H. Trans ? (slowing down fast units now important?)
TROOP / TRANSPORT Warrior = (replenishable objective secured guys)
Immortal = (same?)
Nightscythe = (about the same. Do fliers score?)
Ghost Ark ++ (scoring, jink, a lot harder to explode, plus replenish them objective secured guys)
Command Barge + (lost a bunch of things, gained a bunch of things)
ELITES Deathmark ++ (deep striking scoring, plus still our best anti-MC/deathstar squad)
Lychguard ? (???)
Preatorian ? (deep striking scoring?)
C’tan ? (???)
Flayed One + (outflanking/deep striking scoring?)
Stalker + (melta might be needed more)
FAST Wraith + (and now they score)
Scarabs +++ (scoring replenishable swarms? are you kidding?!)
Destroyer + (jink might help keep them alive longer)
Heavy D. + (need that AP1 more now)
Tomb Blade +++ (jet bikes score)
HEAVY Spyder ? (no more SpyderStar, but now Scarab Farm might be more viable. Plus psychic defense will be important... once we see what the FAQ says)
Annihilation Barge + (jinking results in snap shots, twin linked Tesla doesn't mind)
Doom Scythe + (we may need more AP1 to remove certain tough vehicles)
Doom Ark ? (???)
Monolith ++ (much more survivable)
Anything need to be changed? (if so, why?)
(and feel free to add the superheavies/FW units as well, anyone)
Good list.
Zandy gets a ++, because phased reinforcements allows you to bring in units in the opponent turn, thereby denying them objectives. Best application would be to bring in a NS and dump out the warriors on the objective, but DS Praetorians, Wraiths and anything with a veiltek would be possible too.
Deathmarks get a ++ because of Ethereal interception
Lych should get a + because they are scoring. I think sword and shield is probably better now, as sword is AP3 (or was it always AP3?)
Spyders get at least a + because of Gloom Prism and Fabricator claws.
buddha wrote: C'tan gets a + soley for the Lord of Fire errata. That is nasty.
Has that really changed that much though? It appears to have always been that way, but then again I could be behind the times. I hope I'm wrong though, I need an excuse to take the C'Tan. I love the Night Bringer model.
Man, I was hoping they'd change the Praetorians Rods to normal initiative, but oh well. Can't have everything.
RAW, a Phylactery simply doesn't work with a CCB. RAW, Everliving simply doesn't work with vehicles because it refers to wounds, not hull points.
I can't even suss out an RAI argument... I just think we'll have to wait on either GW or some enterprising TO's get down to FAQing this.
Anpu-adom wrote: RAW, a Phylactery simply doesn't work with a CCB. RAW, Everliving simply doesn't work with vehicles because it refers to wounds, not hull points.
I can't even suss out an RAI argument... I just think we'll have to wait on either GW or some enterprising TO's get down to FAQing this.
The BRB specifically mentions ever living and the chariot, the phylactery specifically mentions the wounds on your lord.
I don't understand why we need an argument about it?
Roll for ever living and the chariot comes back with 1 x hull point (as specifically stated in the BRB)
AFTER the roll for ever living your phylactery is a seperate roll purely for the model with the phylactery (as specifically sated in the codex)
Anpu-adom wrote: RAW, a Phylactery simply doesn't work with a CCB. RAW, Everliving simply doesn't work with vehicles because it refers to wounds, not hull points.
I can't even suss out an RAI argument... I just think we'll have to wait on either GW or some enterprising TO's get down to FAQing this.
The BRB specifically mentions ever living and the chariot, the phylactery specifically mentions the wounds on your lord.
I don't understand why we need an argument about it?
My bad. If that is the case, then yes... 1 Hull on the CCB and d3 wounds on the Overlord.
MarkCron wrote: You can always move to a spyder and restore HP that way.
Spyders with gloom prisms and fabricator claws are looking more and more useful in 7th.
They might have ended the rise of the SpyderStar, but with all the utility roles Spyders play, I can definitely see people using them more now (especially because SWARMS NOW SCORE *never ending flood of scarabs*)
I told you guys CCB was a beast now and no reason not to take Phylactery on it.
I think Seismic Crucible +++ simply because if you have a unit in cover and they charge its -2 + -D3, although that makes a positive the way I just wrote that I think. I wonder if someone would ever argue that. Yea this is - 2 and that says subtract so if we add..
ShadarLogoth wrote:
Hey Skoffs, think I can get this thread to 20 pages merely by discussing the Flayed One viability in 7th ?
Actually, the fact you can DS them is pretty attractive, particularly if you can combine with phased reinforcements and drop on their objective in their turn...(shame they aren't troops).....but can we do this in a separate thread?
I like the way this one is going.
ShadarLogoth wrote:I can't tell from reading the FAQ, do Prisms stack? So being in range of two would give you a 2+ DtW?
I put a YMDC thread on that, I can't see anything preventing it.
I think that's what I really love about the new edition change. It really benefits the natural Necron durability. It's really hard to shove reanimating units off an objective, and makes units, like Praetorians, a little more attractive because of that.
I'm also really enjoying the idea of Flayed Ones now...They almost act like psuedo Ork blobs. Just spread out across the objective and try to get things to move you.
I can't help but also think Night Scythes are going to be pivotal in claiming the opponent's objectives/contesting. Throw some Immortals with Gauss Blasters - who nuke all Non-MEQ/TEQ fairly easily - and blow enemy troops off objectives while you use reanimating Warrior and Flayed One blobs to claim your own...
I think that Ghost Arks are rapidly becoming the transport of choice for me. Being able to leave an empty GA (with a Spyder or two for support) on an objective in the middle of the board is cool. NS are good for deep drops (or maybe veiling immortals) and will be really handy combined with Z and phased reinforcements.
But I agree, the new edition is opening up new options and making lots of units viable - I think mainly because everything scores.
Not know, but the main question for me is whether you can detach a cryptek from a royal court from CAD A and put it into warriors in CAD B.
I haven't got my codex with me, but a lot will depend on what the wording in the requirements for the royal court says. I'm pretty sure it says to attach the cryptek to a unit in your army so cross detachment deployment looks ok in that case.
Tried the 7e rules on a few private games on vassal, the improvements to Jink saves made my Tesla boats (Anni barges and Night Scythes) extremely frustrating for my opponents to kill while super-scoring immortals were able to steal objectives from out beneath my enemy's noses at the last minute. As I predicted, the new vehicle damage charts meant very little for the Necrons as we have many methods of hull point stripping or decidedy nonstandard ways to kill vehicles. An enemy had hoped to have his Chaos contemptor dread break my royal court; but the Warscythe remained as awesome as ever and quickly disabused the Chaos contemptor of that particular illusion. As far as our MCs go, Spyders and Sentinels don't mind the nerfs overly much as they weren't getting in many attacks in the first place, but Tomb Stalkers and Shards took a bit of a hit.
I also got in a few games against the 7e Tyranids, which made up the majority (two out of three) of the games I got in since Sunday. Against an assaulty groundpounding nid Army I ended up dominating the game so thoroughly that the enemy conceded by turn four after I was standing on most of the objectives and had wiped out a full three fourths of his army. As I expected, the shooty dragonflight (my nickname for tyranid flier and jump unit spam lists since they do kind of look like dragons) list was the substantially harder fight and got quite hairy several times. The new D-weapon rules turn Tyranid bio-titans from laughable Transcendant C'tan and Superheavy Pylon fodder into an actually serious threat, if one that I'd say is still lesser than that of an equivalently costed Imperial or Eldar titan. Not the Heirodule though, the Heirodule still remains a pile of fail.
The games seem to be confirming my suspicions that 7e is only really bringing good things to the Necrons and I hope that any future codexes remain strong. Hopefully the Tyranid, Chaos Space Marine,and Dark Angel codex debacles will convince GW to not release such bad and/or mediocre books in the future.
7e is only really bringing good things to the Necrons and I hope that any future codexes remain strong. Hopefully the Tyranid, Chaos Space Marine,and Dark Angel codex debacles will convince GW to not release such bad and/or mediocre books in the future.
Sadly, with how good our codex is at the moment, I have a feeling it's going to be mostly downhill for us when our next book comes out.
I guess we'll find out in '15 (if current rumors are to be believed)
7e is only really bringing good things to the Necrons and I hope that any future codexes remain strong. Hopefully the Tyranid, Chaos Space Marine,and Dark Angel codex debacles will convince GW to not release such bad and/or mediocre books in the future.
Sadly, with how good our codex is at the moment, I have a feeling it's going to be mostly downhill for us when our next book comes out.
I guess we'll find out in '15 (if current rumors are to be believed)
As long as we get Ward to work on the book again we should be fine.
7e is only really bringing good things to the Necrons and I hope that any future codexes remain strong. Hopefully the Tyranid, Chaos Space Marine,and Dark Angel codex debacles will convince GW to not release such bad and/or mediocre books in the future.
Sadly, with how good our codex is at the moment, I have a feeling it's going to be mostly downhill for us when our next book comes out.
I guess we'll find out in '15 (if current rumors are to be believed)
As long as we get Ward to work on the book again we should be fine.
7e is only really bringing good things to the Necrons and I hope that any future codexes remain strong. Hopefully the Tyranid, Chaos Space Marine,and Dark Angel codex debacles will convince GW to not release such bad and/or mediocre books in the future.
Sadly, with how good our codex is at the moment, I have a feeling it's going to be mostly downhill for us when our next book comes out.
I guess we'll find out in '15 (if current rumors are to be believed)
As long as we get Ward to work on the book again we should be fine.
We're fethed if it's Cruddace though.
This....sooooo this
Ward FTW!
I could have sworn they said Ward wasn't allowed to solo write codexes anymore after all the backlash.
... which is good, because the Necron codex was an utter train wreck when it first came out (needed a 5 page FAQ to make it work right, and even then they still hadn't fixed everything.)
Regardless, back on topic, how about them Tomb Blades, then?
Relatively cheap super fast scoring, jink saves that can be helped with Shadowloom, plus twin linked Tesla so it doesn't really care too much about snapshots.
I think I definitely need to consider making space for them in my lists, now.
7e is only really bringing good things to the Necrons and I hope that any future codexes remain strong. Hopefully the Tyranid, Chaos Space Marine,and Dark Angel codex debacles will convince GW to not release such bad and/or mediocre books in the future.
Sadly, with how good our codex is at the moment, I have a feeling it's going to be mostly downhill for us when our next book comes out.
I guess we'll find out in '15 (if current rumors are to be believed)
Print off and laminate the FAQs that just came out. That had the couple of tweaks to make the current codex compatible with 7th.
When the new codex comes out, if its a dud, we'll have both to choose from, at least for friendly games (my gaming club would have no problem with that, especially since it has 7th edition faqs).
That said, I'm thinking the next codex might actually be pretty beast...finally some codex-specific warlord traits and artifacts. And I bet they throw in some anti-psyker goodies in those lists.
The thing I most want is for Deathmark's Ethereal Interception rule to match the fluff and actually grant them the Interceptor USR (as it stands, E.I. is practically useless. Yes, it's slightly more useful in 7th, as they can jump on an objective during an opponents turn, but really, that's not why you take Deathmarks. More than likely somebody f'd up and forgot to include the mechanic when the codex was written).
Nah, their rapid fire guns are fine. The fluff explains they're not long range snipers so much as they are assassins. They can appear from anywhere, kill a thing, job done. They don't need distance for that (their weapons use "sniper" as a mechanic because it's more convenient than making a new rule up).
But speaking of sniper and 7th, wtf is up with them removing pinning from the rule!
Rending is "gone", too, but at least the basic mechanic is still intact.
skoffs wrote: Nah, their rapid fire guns are fine. The fluff explains they're not long range snipers so much as they are assassins. They can appear from anywhere, kill a thing, job done. They don't need distance for that (their weapons use "sniper" as a mechanic because it's more convenient than making a new rule up).
Yeah, after re-reading the fluff I agree. Plus, I think 32" HFH @19 points a piece would be pretty friggin OP...however, I would NOT complain if they gave DMs range
skoffs wrote: But speaking of sniper and 7th, wtf is up with them removing pinning from the rule!
Rending is "gone", too, but at least the basic mechanic is still intact.
Maybe long range pinning spam was an issue? It wasn't an issue in the circles I play in...
In 6t, when I used deathmarks, I took 2+ units for multiple HFH, and used them to DS into RF range and annihilate units, and as such they always became high target priorities, so I never really got much benefit from the pinning part.
HQ Imotekh -- Expensive, no offensive power besides lightnings, nerf to Nightfight. Only got worse.
Zandrekh ++ Still the vastly superior named character in the current codex.
Obyron ++ Still a good model. Sadly lost the ability to take a CCB.
Orikan -- Very expensive, difficult terrain now even worse, terrible special ability.
Anrakyr - MitM still completely useless, lost the ability to take a CCB. Improving Immortals still is "meh" as the unit size is max 10.
Szeras - Too expensive for what it brings to the battlefield. Still worth a shot if you manage to give a blob of super-scoring Warriors T5.
Trazyn -- Trash weapon, low defense, lost his special ability.
Overlord + Got a huge buff due to the improved CCB.
Destroyer Lord = Aye, same.
Lord = Same.
Cryptek = Same.
H. Despair ++ Veil allows for super fast scoring. Expensive though.
H. Destruction + Got a buff by the (hopefully) temporary huge nerf to Gauss Sentry Pylons.
H. Eternity -- Absolute trash weapon, very expensive with only 1 viable piece of war gear.
H. Storm + Haywire. Much love. So Wow.
H. Trans = same.
TROOP / TRANSPORT
Warrior + Buffed by superior GA and thus higher lasting power.
Immortal = same
Nightscythe + Nightscythes cannot score as they cannot hover. Still a good flyer. Buffed by huge nerf to Interceptor.
Ghost Ark ++ Became way more resilient, now has a free 4++ every turn.
Command Barge ++ Might be the new star. Excels vs. MC / tanks. If ridden by Kutlakh can instagib every MC in the game. Very powerful.
ELITES
Deathmark - Now scoring, but very expensive and a nerf to Sniper weapons in general.
Lychguard - Still bad.
Preatorian = Same.
C’tan -- Still trash.
Flayed One - Still trash. Slight buff by Overwatch / GtG change.
Stalker + New vehicle damage table buffed it a bit. Still too expensive by 20 points.
FAST
Wraith ++ Still your go-to-pick for Fast.
Scarabs +++ Scoring, Fearless, replenishable. Yuuuus.
Destroyer - Still way too expensive. Slight buff by Jink.
Heavy D. + Still way too expensive. Slight buff by Jink.
Tomb Blade + Can no longer jink and shoot their blast. Scoring and fast. Models look like gak.
HEAVY
Spyder + Still good MC, buffed due to better Scarabs.
Annihilation Barge + Slight nerf to fire power, buff to survivability.
Doom Scythe -- Way to expensive, completely outclassed by the Sentry Pylon, no scoring.
Doom Ark -- Still an absolute piece of trash. Hey, it got even worse! You can no longer get a Jink Save and shoot because it only fires Blasts.
Monolith = Slightly more durable (only buffed by the new vehicle damage chart), still too expensive / poor weaponry. Still outclassed by Sentry Pylons and AB.
Sentry Pylons + Still one of the best picks for the book as it delivers much needed high AP weaponry. Gauss got a huge nerf that is hopefully getting fixed soon. Take the Deathray for now.
7e is only really bringing good things to the Necrons and I hope that any future codexes remain strong. Hopefully the Tyranid, Chaos Space Marine,and Dark Angel codex debacles will convince GW to not release such bad and/or mediocre books in the future.
Sadly, with how good our codex is at the moment, I have a feeling it's going to be mostly downhill for us when our next book comes out.
I guess we'll find out in '15 (if current rumors are to be believed)
As long as we get Ward to work on the book again we should be fine.
We're fethed if it's Cruddace though.
This....sooooo this
Ward FTW!
I could have sworn they said Ward wasn't allowed to solo write codexes anymore after all the backlash.
... which is good, because the Necron codex was an utter train wreck when it first came out (needed a 5 page FAQ to make it work right, and even then they still hadn't fixed everything.)
Regardless, back on topic, how about them Tomb Blades, then?
Relatively cheap super fast scoring, jink saves that can be helped with Shadowloom, plus twin linked Tesla so it doesn't really care too much about snapshots.
I think I definitely need to consider making space for them in my lists, now.
Ward gets a bit over-enthusiastic with his books, but you can tell he at least tries (unless it's Orcs and Goblins) and puts his all into each book he writes. He does write stuff that does need heavy FAQing but I've come to expect that out of GW's codex writers. Overall, ever since his...rocky start, he's made an effort to improve. Compare his prose in Iyanden to what he wrote for the Space Marines 2008 or GKs book for example.
Cruddace on the other hand; you can plainly tell when he doesn't really feel for an army. Compare how bland and uninspired his Tyranid and Tomb King books are to the Space marines and Imperial Guard. And even when he likes an army his fluff is incredibly boring and incredibly dry. No real effort at narrative, just a chain of related events and descriptions.
In addition, Cruddace has abysmal internal balancing abilities. His books tend have the problem of having equal parts auto-take or complete trash units. If he doesn't like your army, you can even expect mono-builds if you want to win.
While some Ward dexes have aged far better than others (Blood Angels aged terribly, his Space marine book aged decentish, his Grey Knights are aging well, and the Necrons have aged amazingly) he generally at least makes books with good internal balancing (not perfect, but at least good by GW standards) and fun and flavourful rules. Cruddace though...I'd never let him touch another xenos army again.
Kelly has really wonky internal balancing, a love of DICEROLLSALLTHEDICEROLLSDICEROLLSFOREVERYONE, auto-take units (Serpents, Heldrakes, winged Daemon princes, the Duke, Long Fangs, Grav Falcons, Lootas/Nob bikers/Battlewagons) and generally his codexes are eternally quite powerful with the exception of the CSMs and Orks (the latter mostly due to aging badly, they were hella strong in their time, I'm a bit hesitant to class Dark Eldar due to their tendency to either crush an enemy or go down in flames).
Vetock I'm still unsure of. His first 40k book seemed awesome for a while before aging ridiculously fast and his Tau book is...divisive. He seems to have genuine talent though but he's an unknown.
Of course with GW's new name policy we can only really make guesses as to who wrote what codex, and wouldn't really be able to tell if a new writer joined the fray if they didn't tell us.
In the new book, I'm hoping that instead of just nerfing the old tactics to promote the new/underselling models, GW instead tries to make the new or underloved things as viable as the current favorites, perhaps some rebalancing here and there (but it doesn't need overly much, the Necron book is very solidly balanced as a whole).
My personal wish-list:
Pariahs
A Counter-Psyker cryptek
More counter-psyker options
More viable destroyers
Flayed ones moved to troops and fixed up.
Some buffs handed out to Praetorians, Lychguard, C'tan Shards, and Doomsday arks.
More appropriate costing for nightscythes and annihilation barges.
A good, powerful set of relics. More Space marine relics of the chapter, less Tyranid Bio-artefacts.
Warlord traits that actually mesh well with the army.
Some female special characters. Some Phaerakhs or female Crypteks.
Some more ground based AA options, and/or a dedicated air to air fighter.
A true tank.
Maybe a monstrous creature/walker.
Dropping the insistence on having EVERYTHING be WS4 or lower and I2 or lower and actually hand out fluffier scores.
Rebalancing the Crypteks so that some aren't leagues better than others.
Interceptors for Deathmarks and longer ranged sniper rifles.
Dynasty tactics.
A ground based transport that can carry immortals too.
Letting Szeras and Anrakyr affect Lychguards and Praetorians, who could use those stat buffs and special rules far more than Immortals.
Making the other special characters more viable so that Zandrekh isn't a near auto-take all the damn time.
Fixing flux arcs so that the Monolith's pew pew splodey gun doesn't make them next to unusable.
Thomas fething MacAbee.
I'd LOVE to see the option for an all-Canoptek cron army with no RP. Put that Tomb Stalker beastie in the main codex, and add a non-RP troop choice like Canoptek Automotons or something. Give the Illumniator some rules that buff Canoptek units, similar (but better) to what he does now for Warriors. As it stands now, that dude is one of the biggest wastes of a cool (IMO) sculpt in the codex.
Although they're so looked down upon, I usually had great results from Monoliths in 6th. I made great use of their transport mojo. They only got better with 7th because they're harder to explode, so I'll still be using them in some lists. What kind of changeswould you like to see out of the Flux Arc?
HQ Imotekh -- Expensive, no offensive power besides lightnings, nerf to Nightfight. Only got worse.
Zandrekh ++ Still the vastly superior named character in the current codex.
Obyron ++ Still a good model. Sadly lost the ability to take a CCB.
Orikan -- Very expensive, difficult terrain now even worse, terrible special ability.
Anrakyr - MitM still completely useless, lost the ability to take a CCB. Improving Immortals still is "meh" as the unit size is max 10.
Szeras - Too expensive for what it brings to the battlefield. Still worth a shot if you manage to give a blob of super-scoring Warriors T5.
Trazyn -- Trash weapon, low defense, lost his special ability.
Overlord + Got a huge buff due to the improved CCB.
Destroyer Lord = Aye, same.
Lord = Same.
Cryptek = Same.
H. Despair ++ Veil allows for super fast scoring. Expensive though.
H. Destruction + Got a buff by the (hopefully) temporary huge nerf to Gauss Sentry Pylons.
H. Eternity -- Absolute trash weapon, very expensive with only 1 viable piece of war gear.
H. Storm + Haywire. Much love. So Wow.
H. Trans = same.
TROOP / TRANSPORT
Warrior + Buffed by superior GA and thus higher lasting power.
Immortal = same
Nightscythe + Nightscythes cannot score as they cannot hover. Still a good flyer. Buffed by huge nerf to Interceptor.
Ghost Ark ++ Became way more resilient, now has a free 4++ every turn.
Command Barge ++ Might be the new star. Excels vs. MC / tanks. If ridden by Kutlakh can instagib every MC in the game. Very powerful.
ELITES
Deathmark - Now scoring, but very expensive and a nerf to Sniper weapons in general.
Lychguard - Still bad.
Preatorian = Same.
C’tan -- Still trash.
Flayed One - Still trash. Slight buff by Overwatch / GtG change.
Stalker + New vehicle damage table buffed it a bit. Still too expensive by 20 points.
FAST
Wraith ++ Still your go-to-pick for Fast.
Scarabs +++ Scoring, Fearless, replenishable. Yuuuus.
Destroyer - Still way too expensive. Slight buff by Jink.
Heavy D. + Still way too expensive. Slight buff by Jink.
Tomb Blade + Can no longer jink and shoot their blast. Scoring and fast. Models look like gak.
HEAVY
Spyder + Still good MC, buffed due to better Scarabs.
Annihilation Barge + Slight nerf to fire power, buff to survivability.
Doom Scythe -- Way to expensive, completely outclassed by the Sentry Pylon, no scoring.
Doom Ark -- Still an absolute piece of trash. Hey, it got even worse! You can no longer get a Jink Save and shoot because it only fires Blasts.
Monolith = Slightly more durable (only buffed by the new vehicle damage chart), still too expensive / poor weaponry. Still outclassed by Sentry Pylons and AB.
Sentry Pylons + Still one of the best picks for the book as it delivers much needed high AP weaponry. Gauss got a huge nerf that is hopefully getting fixed soon. Take the Deathray for now.
Adding to this: Tomb Stalkers - The monstrous creature nerfs hurt badly and at 220 points you really want this thing to pull it's own weight.
Acranthites + Essentially unchanged. Still quite good, and with the monstrous creature nerfs they can freely eat a Trygon or a Daemon prince and not give a damn.
Tomb Sentinel == Against anything that you really wanted to smash/had any business putting the Sentinel into assault with, you didn't get rampage anyway, and it's shooting attack remains as goofy as ever. It's still a bizarre choice that took a bit of a nerf.
Tesseract Ark ++ Improved by the new damage rules, and at AV14 it really doesn't need to jink much anyway. The firepower it puts out remains rather mediocre (especially compared to Leman Russ tanks) but it's a swiss army knife. Though on the other hand, you're probably only going to be using the "totally not a plasma destroyer" as the S5 armourbane line sucks and the Fleshbane AP3 template lacks torrent. Still rather underwhelming but cool.
Night shroud bomber + Interceptor took a big nerf and the jink changes benefit it a bit. Still extremely costly however. If Draigowing does indeed return as a thing people use, this may just be the option to take to make the Grey Knights cry, then again, Heat Cannon or Death Ray Pylons can do the same thing.
Superheavy Pylon - More or less unchanged, never run it under the Warzone Damnos rules ever. The D-weapon nerf does hurt, but if it rolls a six, lulz will be had.
Tesseract Vault + Benefitted a bit, but ultimately what you really want is...
Transcendant C'tan - Still the best thing since sliced bread for a Necron army, even with the D-weapon nerf it melts entire armies, and it can get enough hits to roll up some sixes here and there. Also with the changes to Open-topped Transports, these become hilarious against mech-orks or Dark Eldar. Get into position and hellstorm their transport's asses. Between the template auto-hits and their vehicles exploding you'll probably kill everyone carried inside and wipe out their transports to boot, essentially all but crippling them. Take a picture of their face after you inform them that they have now lost a massive portion of their army in one go.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
jasper76 wrote: I'd LOVE to see the option for an all-Canoptek cron army with no RP. Put that Tomb Stalker beastie in the main codex, and add a non-RP troop choice like Canoptek Automotons or something. Give the Illumniator some rules that buff Canoptek units, similar (but better) to what he does now for Warriors. As it stands now, that dude is one of the biggest wastes of a cool (IMO) sculpt in the codex.
Although they're so looked down upon, I usually had great results from Monoliths in 6th. I made great use of their transport mojo. They only got better with 7th because they're harder to explode, so I'll still be using them in some lists. What kind of changeswould you like to see out of the Flux Arc?
The change to the Flux Arc would be very simple: They can fire at full BS even if the particle whip fires.
I'd perhaps also like to see heat, tesla, and particle weapons also spread in ubiquity. So small heat carbines for Immortals (though that may just turn them into wannabe fire dragons) or particle carbines, maybe Tesla guns for warriors, Heat and Particle guns as alternatives to Gauss or Tesla cannons, Tesla cannons for destroyers, that sort of thing.
More options for units is also always good. I'd like to be able to buy sempiternal weaves for Lychguards, Crypteks, and Praetorians at least, and I wouldn't mind flayed ones made from other Necron Chassis and new kinds of Destroyers.
In addition, I think the melee weapons could be balanced internally a bit better.
Change hyperphase swords into hyperphase power weapons, The Gauntlet of Fail needs a serious boost, and so on.
Kain wrote: Transcendant C'tan - Still the best thing since sliced bread for a Necron army, even with the D-weapon nerf it melts entire armies, and it can get enough hits to roll up some sixes here and there. Also with the changes to Open-topped Transports, these become hilarious against mech-orks or Dark Eldar. Get into position and hellstorm their transport's asses. Between the template auto-hits and their vehicles exploding you'll probably kill everyone carried inside and wipe out their transports to boot, essentially all but crippling them. Take a picture of their face after you inform them that they have now lost a massive portion of their army in one go.
I breathed a bi sigh of relief when the Escalation FAQ didn't have any updates to the Transcendant C'Tan. Bringer of Sad Faces!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kain wrote: The change to the Flux Arc would be very simple: They can fire at full BS even if the particle whip fires.
OK, I'm sorry. I was confused, and thought you were talking about the Patricle Whip in the first place
As far as I can tell so far, the big counter to the Daemonfactory (would an Imperial summoner be a Daemonfactorum?) is getting all up in their grill with CC as early as possible. Nemesor Z deepstrike closecombat units in front of all those heralds could do this, and you could then charge in your own turn (after surviving fire). So Zahndrekh to deepstrike Lychguard + Veiltek units? Or maybe even a very big 20 man Flayed One unit, with as many beatstick independent characters joined in as possible to spread out along the board and multi assault all the summoning units at once?
God In Action wrote: As far as I can tell so far, the big counter to the Daemonfactory (would an Imperial summoner be a Daemonfactorum?) is getting all up in their grill with CC as early as possible. Nemesor Z deepstrike closecombat units in front of all those heralds could do this, and you could then charge in your own turn (after surviving fire). So Zahndrekh to deepstrike Lychguard + Veiltek units? Or maybe even a very big 20 man Flayed One unit, with as many beatstick independent characters joined in as possible to spread out along the board and multi assault all the summoning units at once?
The best counter to Daemon factory is the thrown rulebook weapon, much like how it's the perfect counter to munchkinry in D&D.
Guys, I want things fixed, too, but if you were to implement all of those changes Necrons would be so overwhelmingly powerful it would be like 5th ed. GK had a baby with 6th ed. TauDar.
All I can hope for from the next codex is balance.
Back to the topic at hand,
I wonder how well a full Canoptek unbound army would work?
I've always wanted to run a list of nothing but non-sentient machines from one of those SkyNet tomb worlds.
Wraiths & Acranthites
Spyders & Scarabs
Possibly throw a Sentinel/Stalker in for lols And at the center of it? The walking embodiment of the Machine Spirit: Void Dragon (Transcendent C'tan)
God In Action wrote: As far as I can tell so far, the big counter to the Daemonfactory (would an Imperial summoner be a Daemonfactorum?) is getting all up in their grill with CC as early as possible. Nemesor Z deepstrike closecombat units in front of all those heralds could do this, and you could then charge in your own turn (after surviving fire). So Zahndrekh to deepstrike Lychguard + Veiltek units? Or maybe even a very big 20 man Flayed One unit, with as many beatstick independent characters joined in as possible to spread out along the board and multi assault all the summoning units at once?
For this job, I'd be inclined to DS Deatmarks with a Veiltek and Destroyer Lord, probably multiple Deathmark units if there are multiple summoning targets, and wipe out the Heralds upon arrival R2.
For some Zandrekh mojo, I'm not sure if the Lychguard would be better than Wraiths. Wraiths are still more survivable with the 3++ and multiple wounds, much more mobile, and better at CC. Obviously no deflect or RP.
With everything scoring now, I am eager to find a good use for Lychguard sword-n-boards cuz I really like the models.
Kain, for the most part I agree with you, except over a few things:
Adding to this: Tomb Stalkers - The monstrous creature nerfs hurt badly and at 220 points you really want this thing to pull it's own weight.
I'm going to have to Disagree here. I think the changes to MCs actually made the Tomb Stalker better. You don't really need to smash with it, it's best purpose is hunting troops and other backfield holders, so that it benefits from Rampage. Before, you'd have to worry about other MCs giving the Tomb Stalker problems. Now, you actually have an advantage since most will take 5's to wound against it, instead of being able to smash it's 4 wounds away like before.
Acranthites + Essentially unchanged. Still quite good, and with the monstrous creature nerfs they can freely eat a Trygon or a Daemon prince and not give a damn.
I think we are going to see a move toward Vehicles, that will make these guys even better. Right now, I find them to be better than Wraiths, since they deal with Volume of fire much better than Wraiths do, thanks to their Higher T and W value.
Tesseract Ark ++ Improved by the new damage rules, and at AV14 it really doesn't need to jink much anyway. The firepower it puts out remains rather mediocre (especially compared to Leman Russ tanks) but it's a swiss army knife. Though on the other hand, you're probably only going to be using the "totally not a plasma destroyer" as the S5 armourbane line sucks and the Fleshbane AP3 template lacks torrent. Still rather underwhelming but cool.
Well, it can't benefit from Jink because it's heavy. It has a 5++ standard though, so it's not really needed. It's going to be a lot harder to break these suckers now, and the put out a resonable amount of fire. Three plasma blasts at 48' +Two Tesla or Gauss Cannons is not bad. It is expensive though. I do wish the Flamer Had torrent though!
Sasori wrote: Kain, for the most part I agree with you, except over a few things:
Adding to this: Tomb Stalkers - The monstrous creature nerfs hurt badly and at 220 points you really want this thing to pull it's own weight.
I'm going to have to Disagree here. I think the changes to MCs actually made the Tomb Stalker better. You don't really need to smash with it, it's best purpose is hunting troops and other backfield holders, so that it benefits from Rampage. Before, you'd have to worry about other MCs giving the Tomb Stalker problems. Now, you actually have an advantage since most will take 5's to wound against it, instead of being able to smash it's 4 wounds away like before.
Acranthites + Essentially unchanged. Still quite good, and with the monstrous creature nerfs they can freely eat a Trygon or a Daemon prince and not give a damn.
I think we are going to see a move toward Vehicles, that will make these guys even better. Right now, I find them to be better than Wraiths, since they deal with Volume of fire much better than Wraiths do, thanks to their Higher T and W value.
Tesseract Ark ++ Improved by the new damage rules, and at AV14 it really doesn't need to jink much anyway. The firepower it puts out remains rather mediocre (especially compared to Leman Russ tanks) but it's a swiss army knife. Though on the other hand, you're probably only going to be using the "totally not a plasma destroyer" as the S5 armourbane line sucks and the Fleshbane AP3 template lacks torrent. Still rather underwhelming but cool.
Well, it can't benefit from Jink because it's heavy. It has a 5++ standard though, so it's not really needed. It's going to be a lot harder to break these suckers now, and the put out a resonable amount of fire. Three plasma blasts at 48' +Two Tesla or Gauss Cannons is not bad. It is expensive though. I do wish the Flamer Had torrent though!
The Ark is more a tough bastard to kill than super-duper killy, since it costs more than a Leman Russ for a negligible increase in firepower but a strong increase in durability.
It's just about killy enough to make your enemy want to shoot at it (and thus draw fire from squishier but more dangerous units).
As for the Acranthites: It'd seem that their improvements mostly come from meta-shifts and nerfs to units they once dreaded facing. Right now, Acranthites only fear clawed carnifexes and the swarmlord in the entire Tyranid book for example, and charging the Swarmlord when the easy option is to challenge and MSS him (preferably with a cheap Lord in case he does pass the test) so he instantly kills himself is a silly thing to do. And as long as you charge first, you should be able to kill the Carnifexes before they can start swining back.
The Guard though, is pretty much Codex: Blobs, Psykers, and Leman Russes, and those Leman Russes are just begging to be Acranthite'd to death and unlike a Land Raider; you rarely have to worry about the prize inside.
Stalkers, oh yeah I forgot about Rampage. Potentially 8 attacks on the charge is pretty beefy given their statlines, and they're incredibly fast too.
^
Looks interesting. Would this be unbound or forged? (still haven't got a firm enough grasp on the rules to recognize one from the other yet).
How would you adjust it for tournament play? (1850 battle forged)
It's a Battleforged list, technically, as it uses two legit detachments.
Scaling this down to 1850 is hardly doable, you would have to remove all Stormteks and either cut down the unit of Arcanthrites to 4 or cut down on the OL wargear.
skoffs wrote: ^
Looks interesting. Would this be unbound or forged? (still haven't got a firm enough grasp on the rules to recognize one from the other yet).
How would you adjust it for tournament play? (1850 battle forged)
My area runs 2k Tournies, so I would just have to loose 5 points.
As for cutting down the list, to 1850, I would cut an Overlord and Stormtek, and Ancanthrite. You can then add 5 Scarabs and 2 Spyders for 1850 on the dot. If you wanted, you could cut one more Ancanthrite and add a 3rd spyder, but I find 4 is probably too low for what you want to start with on the Ancanthrites.
skoffs wrote:
Back to the topic at hand,
I wonder how well a full Canoptek unbound army would work?
I've always wanted to run a list of nothing but non-sentient machines from one of those SkyNet tomb worlds.
Wraiths & Acranthites
Spyders & Scarabs
Possibly throw a Sentinel/Stalker in for lols And at the center of it? The walking embodiment of the Machine Spirit: Void Dragon (Transcendent C'tan)
I think an all Canoptek list would rock. Being unbound would mean you'd have to deal with enemy troops quickly (if they were battleforged) because otherwise they would trump you on objectives. However, balancing that would be the sheer volume of wraiths, spyders and scarabs running around. I'll have to try it (without the C'tan) and lower points levels (cos I don't have enough models). But at lower points levels this would be even stronger (assuming they didn't bring a flyer).
Puts me at 2005 points. I'l let you guys know how it goes!
You're going to have a tough time finding the 5 points! List looks good though.
I haven't looked at FW rules for Ancanthrites etc - which IA are they in? Is it 12? I'm really thinking about getting it now, because I heard you can take Flayed ones as troops - is that right?
Would a monolith be big enough to sit on top of an objective and not let anyone within 3 inches? Because if it was, that sounds like a great way to score without the threat of superscoring troops stealing it.
omerakk wrote:Is a lord on a chariot still able to use mindshackle scarabs against enemy models?
I'd say so, because the rider and chariot are considered to be one model. You'd have a lot more models to randomise against though given the size of the chariot. Would still work for lone characters or MC though.
Doctarro wrote:Would a monolith be big enough to sit on top of an objective and not let anyone within 3 inches? Because if it was, that sounds like a great way to score without the threat of superscoring troops stealing it.
Haven't got a monolith, but the base would need to be more than 6 inches wide on all sides for that to work.
Where is Destroyers getting Jink coming from? They're still jump infantry and the rulebook doesn't say jump units get jink. If that was the case Acanthrites would have a 3+ jink save!
On page 87 of the rule book it does state that the attacker decides whether to attack the character or chariot. So even though MC only get one smash attack that still means that if that attack gets the pen it could very easily kill the CB in one attack. Does that mean we can't use the Phase Shifter save that the Overlord has?
Sushi636 wrote: On page 87 of the rule book it does state that the attacker decides whether to attack the character or chariot. So even though MC only get one smash attack that still means that if that attack gets the pen it could very easily kill the CB in one attack. Does that mean we can't use the Phase Shifter save that the Overlord has?
Sushi636 wrote: On page 87 of the rule book it does state that the attacker decides whether to attack the character or chariot. So even though MC only get one smash attack that still means that if that attack gets the pen it could very easily kill the CB in one attack. Does that mean we can't use the Phase Shifter save that the Overlord has?
Does the smash attack hit back armour or front?
It would still need to hit with it's one attack (3+) than pen (2+ on rear armour) than roll a 6 (+1 for AP2) on the chart to explode. And even if it does we now get to re-animate the entire chariot with rider at the end of the CC phase.
Much easier to avoid a MC these days however since FMC's can not charge the turn they change flight modes and most other MC's are only moving 6" per turn.
Sushi636 wrote: On page 87 of the rule book it does state that the attacker decides whether to attack the character or chariot. So even though MC only get one smash attack that still means that if that attack gets the pen it could very easily kill the CB in one attack. Does that mean we can't use the Phase Shifter save that the Overlord has?
Does the smash attack hit back armour or front?
It would still need to hit with it's one attack (3+) than pen (2+ on rear armour) than roll a 6 (+1 for AP2) on the chart to explode. And even if it does we now get to re-animate the entire chariot with rider at the end of the CC phase.
Much easier to avoid a MC these days however since FMC's can not charge the turn they change flight modes and most other MC's are only moving 6" per turn.
Actually it's against front armor and they have to hit using the WS of the rider so unless the MC has a WS of 5 or better they are going to need 4's to hit, 4 to pen and 5+ to wreck it.
Sushi636 wrote: On page 87 of the rule book it does state that the attacker decides whether to attack the character or chariot. So even though MC only get one smash attack that still means that if that attack gets the pen it could very easily kill the CB in one attack. Does that mean we can't use the Phase Shifter save that the Overlord has?
Does the smash attack hit back armour or front?
It would still need to hit with it's one attack (3+) than pen (2+ on rear armour) than roll a 6 (+1 for AP2) on the chart to explode. And even if it does we now get to re-animate the entire chariot with rider at the end of the CC phase.
Much easier to avoid a MC these days however since FMC's can not charge the turn they change flight modes and most other MC's are only moving 6" per turn.
CC is always vs the front armor
Just use the Phase Shifter to give the CCB the 3++
Rider and Chariot are one model.
Phase Shifer grants a 3++ to the model.
So bother the Overlord and the CCB get a 3++
Wait,
If the attacker decides whether they want to attack rider or chariot, how does the CCB get to benefit from the 3++ if they choose not to attack the Overlord?
(and is that "attacker decides" thing for both shooting and CC or just CC?)
MoonlightSonata wrote: Where is Destroyers getting Jink coming from? They're still jump infantry and the rulebook doesn't say jump units get jink. If that was the case Acanthrites would have a 3+ jink save!
Interested in this, myself.
Anyone care to weigh in?
bodazoka wrote: Can a monolith shoot its main weapon if it Jinks? if not wouldn't that mean the Monolith got a massive nerf.
Sushi636 wrote: On page 87 of the rule book it does state that the attacker decides whether to attack the character or chariot. So even though MC only get one smash attack that still means that if that attack gets the pen it could very easily kill the CB in one attack. Does that mean we can't use the Phase Shifter save that the Overlord has?
Does the smash attack hit back armour or front?
It would still need to hit with it's one attack (3+) than pen (2+ on rear armour) than roll a 6 (+1 for AP2) on the chart to explode. And even if it does we now get to re-animate the entire chariot with rider at the end of the CC phase.
Much easier to avoid a MC these days however since FMC's can not charge the turn they change flight modes and most other MC's are only moving 6" per turn.
Actually it's against front armor and they have to hit using the WS of the rider so unless the MC has a WS of 5 or better they are going to need 4's to hit, 4 to pen and 5+ to wreck it.
This is if they pass their MSS test, as well!
On that note, I had my first game, against a standard 5th edition Tau List.
Buffmander sitting with three HYMP broadsides, with the trmmings
3x riptides with IA, and Interceptor
4sets of Firewarriors
3 groups of PF
3x more broadsides with the trimmings
I don't remember all the upgrades and the exact numbers, sot his may be off a bit.
Anyway, the CCB... Rocked. I got first turn, so Sped one toward the Buffmanders unit, and another toward the other set of Broadsides. Since I was so meched up, they were really the only threat to my entire army. He poured missileside fire into my CCBs, but they just plinked off my Weave for the most part. I was in combat with both units turn two, and it was just a slaughter from there. Without the missilesides, He really coulden't do much to to rest of my army, and it was cleanup from there.
The Haywire guys didn't do anything this game, but there were no vehicles. They are there for Land Raiders and what not.
Dlord and Ancanthries cleaned house. They took a lot of fire, but between stealth, 2+ on the Dlord and having 3W they were hard to take down.
Ghost Arks just speed around, until they could lay their fulisides into the tau line.
Abarges did their grisly work as usual.
It was a slaughter. Granted, This was a Tau 6th edition list, so I'm sure things will get changed up as we move a long. As of right now, They really don't have a way to deal with the CCB Overlord. You can throw anything that's AP 3 or higher on the Weave Lord, and Anything like melta you can throw on him as well.
The only army I'm really sweating at this point, is Wraithknight Eldar. We still don't have a really good way to deal with multiple Wraithknights.
Do templates work against Wraithknights?
If you throw 2-3 Despair-teks in with Deathmark units, would they stand a fair chance of putting some wounds on those things?
Also, would it be possible to combine 2 Storm-teks with a Veil-tek instead of your current configuration?
(so you can guarantee first blood if you go first and they have a vehicle)
This is mostly silliness, but Sasori mentioning a need for a good solution to Wraithknights got me thinking of the old 5th edition era Royal Court "dev" squads, with a 7th edition twist:
So that clocks in around 1880, so you have some points to spare to flavor up to 2k (4 Tachyon Arrows?), and aren't far from 1850, (drop one lancetek?)
That gives you 4 pretty salty dev squads riding around in AV 13 Open Topped 4+ cover save jinking skimmers (4 Solar Pulses should keep things sufficiently dark). Too bad we couldn't rock this with the old Night Fighting, would be positively sick.
Not nearly enough anti-infantry probably, which is why is more if an intellectual musing. But, kinda purdy looking on paper.
Sasori, you really have me excited! I may be dropping the Night Scythes in my main list for another GA.
I'm looking at the world of double/Triple Wraithknight and the only way out that I see is Transcendent C'Tan (which is why I'm building one). Which will only encourage them to play their Titan (and we don't win that one either).
MarkCron wrote: Sasori, how did the barges do in the combats? Are there any units you wouldn't charge with them?
Well, since by Raw the Phase Shifter grants the barge a 3++...
I would avoid anything that excels in close combat either vs the Chariot or the Overlord. Wraithknights come to mind for example. They can wreck both of them pretty easy.
Most MCs you should be ok. They have to etiher choose to make a single Smash attack against the Chariot, or Make it's regular attacks against the overlord. Between MSS, AV 13, and a 3++ Most MCs are not going to be doing that well....
Thanks Sasori. In CC, does the phase shifter benefit transfer to the barge? In CC the attacker can direct its attacks only to the CCB - so one argument is that phase shifter doesn't kick in. This would be consistent with the treatment of the wound pool in shooting (separating wounds between the rider and the CCB). Other argument is that it is one model, hence 3++ kicks in - this is also consistent with the wording re CCB being always attacked on front armour ("the rider can defend it").
Thought I'd share a list I used last weekend for a couple of maelstrom games against a CSMSM army.
Spoiler:
Overlord (WS/MSS/SW/RO)
2xLancetek
Zandhrek
2xLancetek
20 Warriors
5Warriors, GA 5 Warriors, GA
3x Scarabs
3x Scarabs
2 x Spyder (2x fabricator claws)
AB AB 1495
This was a blast to play Maelstrom missions with - the scarabs were borderline broken, particularly with Z giving them furious charge. Only issue was getting into the opponent back objective - didn't quite have the reach/speed I needed. However, did use the AB on the flanks to blast a couple of units off then hold the objective!
And, inspired by Skoffs Canoptek army, but working with my models only, my canoptek unbound list for a couple of games this weekend.
MarkCron wrote: Thanks Sasori. In CC, does the phase shifter benefit transfer to the barge? In CC the attacker can direct its attacks only to the CCB - so one argument is that phase shifter doesn't kick in. This would be consistent with the treatment of the wound pool in shooting (separating wounds between the rider and the CCB). Other argument is that it is one model, hence 3++ kicks in - this is also consistent with the wording re CCB being always attacked on front armour ("the rider can defend it").
RAWise, right now, since it's considered one model, the CCB benefits from the 3++ no matter what. I didn't need to use that last game though, but I may in future games.
There has been much conversation about Warlord Traits that came with the new edition, how they improved a bit. Id like to hear what do you think about them in point of view of crons?
I see much potential in these new tables for some fun combos. I know they are really random but for example, CCBOL with 3+ inv, FNP buffed by tenacity from personal traits and 4+ RP can be pretty nasty. Or if so, it will not die... that's... yeah... I like it!
The jink save snap shots kind of bums me out, as I liked to roll around filled ghost arks up in rapid fire range.
What really spooks me now is "no escape" If you hit an open topped vehicle with a template weapon, that is D6 hits on the unit inside. While the heldrake has gone back to its original form (woo, no longer feel guilty about bringing mine! seriously only used it twice and I got it when it came out) This is good news for my other armies, but bad news for necrons. a heavy flamer now poses a bit of a thread. Though the Ghost ark self repair should help with that a lot.
Anpu-adom wrote: I don't have the book yet. Can someone look into the deep striking of skimmers. Do Monoliths have deep strike protection in 7th?
No rule allowing deep striking skimmers in the rule book. Monoliths still the same re DS mishaps.
Can't find any rule that gives destroyers jink.
They haven't Jink. Some people still think they are Troop Type: Jetbikes because they used to be and nobody used them in 6th anyway. They are Jump Infantry, though, and therefore can't Jink.
So apparently RAW, the CCB/Overlord counts as a single model.
The CCB can have the phase shifter 3++ if the Overlord buys it.
The CCB can join units. Barge-Star!
And the CCB can do funky things like still do its sweep attack while staying attached to a unit (just has to start and end its movement in coherency with its unit if it wants to stay attached)
As exciting as that seems, I doubt you'd be able to convince anyone to let you do that. Even if it counts as a single model, is it still technically and independent character?
Interesting, I wonder what the overlord/CCB unit type is. I suspect that it would be type chariot (character), which would mean the overlord loses IC status.
Actually, it has to be type chariot, because the rider is not separable from the chariot and the rules for the rider are specified under the Chariot rules.
Anpu-adom wrote: I don't have the book yet. Can someone look into the deep striking of skimmers. Do Monoliths have deep strike protection in 7th?
No rule allowing deep striking skimmers in the rule book. Monoliths still the same re DS mishaps.
Can't find any rule that gives destroyers jink.
Thanks for the reply. People were using the "skimmers cannot be forced to end movement in impassable terrain" to mean that the Monoliths that land in impassable terrain (including on enemy models) would reduce their scatter to the point where they are safe from mishap. I should have specified what I was asking before. Is the rule about skimmers and impassable terrain still in the brb?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MarkCron wrote: Interesting, I wonder what the overlord/CCB unit type is. I suspect that it would be type chariot (character), which would mean the overlord loses IC status.
Actually, it has to be type chariot, because the rider is not separable from the chariot and the rules for the rider are specified under the Chariot rules.
Good idea though.
The FAQ lists the CCB as a vehicle (Chariot, Skimmer, Fast, and Open-Topped). So it doesn't seem to count as a character or independent character. It can still probably be our warlord... the precedent was set in AM for vehicle Warlords.
MarkCron wrote: Interesting, I wonder what the overlord/CCB unit type is. I suspect that it would be type chariot (character), which would mean the overlord loses IC status.
Actually, it has to be type chariot, because the rider is not separable from the chariot and the rules for the rider are specified under the Chariot rules.
Good idea though.
The FAQ lists the CCB as a vehicle (Chariot, Skimmer, Fast, and Open-Topped). So it doesn't seem to count as a character or independent character. It can still probably be our warlord... the precedent was set in AM for vehicle Warlords.
It can't be the warlord if there are any other characters in the army. You have to select a character first.
On the Overlord profile is the special rule that it is an independent character.
So according to the dual profile, the Independent Character special rule is in effect.
There is nothing in the rules taking away special rules on the Overlord side of the dual profile.
In fact, reanimation protocol special rule is quite clearly still in effect.
There would have to be a line that says the Rider of a Chariot loses any Independent Character special rule.
IIt's basically an unusual unit with a dual profile that counts as a single model - as stated in RAW.
Keep in mind that this isn't super crazy. Other IC can't join any unit that has a CCB in it since they can't join vehicles and the CCB is clearly a vehicle. So at best you have a CCB joined to a unit of wraiths.
Are we seeing the death of the Destroyer Lord and the birth of the CCB Overlord?
Over Lord is 215 points (CCB, WS, MSS, Res Orb)
Destroyer Lord is 190 points (Semp Weave, MSS, Res Orb)
Positives - Survivability
1. v Shooting the OL (generally) can not be hurt by S6 and below
2. "Free" 4++ against high strength shooting attacks and the option of putting the high strength non AP2 attacks on the lords 2+ save
- Damage
1. Sweep attack
2. D6 S6 HOW attacks on the charge
3. Shooting attack
I can confirm that Kutlakh on the CCB is awesomeness incarnate.
He basically decapitated the Swarmlord and a full unit of LW and BS Tyrant guard without any real threat to himself after he ganked the Swarmlord.
He then went on a long rampage throughout the Tyranid army, with the Tyranid LOWs in the apoc game being kept down by the T C'tan and Superheavy Pylons while Carnifexes were kept well away.
Also managed a repeat against a melee focused Daemon list.
The Bloodthirster and Keeper of Secret's decapitated heads should go well on the pimp chair.
Kirbs over at 3++ feels that 7th edition will encourage a slight meta shift back to MSU, with many transports and small infantry squads to take advantage of the new vehicle rules and the new scoring troop transport rules. I think that shift would be pretty good for the crons. Nothing strips HP like Tesla D's and Gauss.
Along those lines, I can finally legally run a list I've been playing around with in my head for years. Not sure how the various tournaments will rule on the wide open availability out there, but this is something that can be run with basic standard force org + allies. The two questions are whether or not RC members will be able to join units from allies/etc., and whether or not Anrakyr or Szeras's abilities can cross ally formations.
Spoiler:
HQ:
225 Imo 175 Anrakyr
100 Szeras
RC 1
25 Stormtek
40 Chronotek
105 Lord w/RO/SW/WS/MSS
RC 2
25 Stormtek
40 Chronotek
70 Lord w/RO/Gaunts
Elite:
65 Falyed Ones x 5
65 Falyed Ones x 5
Troops:
100 NS 170 Immortals x 10 Gauss
+ Imo, Szzeras, Chrono, Lord w/RO/MSS/SW/WS
100 NS (Ally)
170 Immortals x 10 Tesla (Ally)
+Anraykr, Chrono, Lord w/RO/Gauntlets of Fire (Ally)
100 NS 85 Immortals
+ Stormtek, Stormtek
HS 90 AB 90 AB 90 AB 90 AB (Ally)
Should be 2k on the dot. That looks like fun to me.
That list looks neat. Just for clarity, you can't take the allied FOC Detachment, so you are going to have to take another troop to make your list battleforged.
You have to take 2 combined arms detachments (so you need 2 HQ and 4 troops min (unless Imo makes FO troops?)).
Kirby is absolutely right, and way more so than the interweb realises.
In 7th ed, Maelstrom missions are completely different to the way we played before. Instead of playing 1 game of 5 turns, we are playing 5 1 turn games consecutively. In each turn you need to get to the specific objective with a troop (or clear it so you can score with non troop). Then, it is most likely that you'll need to move to a different objective and do the same thing. Thing is you only have to "hold" the objective at the end of your player turn that you have the card. It is obviously desirable to leave troops there so your opponent has to work hard to get their VP, but you can't compromise your "deployment" for the "next game" ie your next turn.
I think it will be hugely difficult to win a maelstrom game by "killing troops". You'd have to kill them all in one turn and we don't have the firepower or alpha strike to do that.
So, our advantages are:
a) Tough superscoring vehicles
b) Night scythes for movement
c) Z's ability to bring in reinforcements in the opposing player turn - because you can stop them scoring (think NS moving up to 30" then dumping superscoring warriors - no VP for them!)
d) Crypteks - everliving crypteks in a 5 man squad give us a 33% chance of denying (or retaining) a VP, because they come back from the dead. And if there is even 1 warrior/cryptek within 3" of an objective - well, you either scored it or you denied it.
e) we can glance and wreck anything - which is going to be really important, because it isn't going to be long before EVERY imperial army is leaving superscoring drop pods on top of objectives which we'll have to wreck.
f) Deathmarks will also be critical, because not only can you use them to take out the psykers, you can also bring them in the opponent turn to contest objectives not held by superscoring troops -and again deny the VP.
So the fundamental way we design lists need to change. It isn't take and hold...it is take and GO.
Our main disadvantage is that other than NS we don't have supermobile scoring units, like turbo boosting bikes. Other than that, we have all the tools we need in spades.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The implication is that min units are the way to go.
I think your list would be great for most Eternal War missions, but not for Maelstrom.
For Maelstrom, I'd cut down each NS unit to only 5 and leave the other 5 walking on the board (with a cryptek) even if I had to drop an AB to do it. (Never thought I'd write that!)
That list looks neat. Just for clarity, you can't take the allied FOC Detachment, so you are going to have to take another troop to make your list battleforged.
Oh Really? So you can't take the old fashion 1 HQ 1 Troop + 1/0 of anything else anymore?
Not a big deal, though. Adding in 65 points of warriors somewhere would be useful, and wouldn't be to hard.
Yeah, honestly, the more I think about it, the more I dig it. Interesting combination of MSU and a couple of pretty salty Res Orbed/Olorded up Immortal sqauds. Plus a healthy plethora of Tesla D's. I think I've made my first 7th edition list.
If I need a 4th troop, I'll just drop the third NS immortal squad down to a couple Warriors with Lanctek squads I think. Maybe one Solar Pulse just to make sure things stay nice and dark one turn longer after Imo's lighting shuts off. I dig it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, and of course this is a pretty solid template for anything:
Primary 1:
HQ BargeLord
Troops
GA+5
GA+5
HS AB AB AB
Primary 2:
HQ BargeLord
Troops
GA+5
GA+5
HS AB AB AB
That's 1620 and already has 12 AV 13 Hulls. Just nasty.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Lets see, an extra barge lords and 3 Pulseteks runs you 345. That buys you another AV 13 hull and three turns of Stealth (NF dependent stealth). Throw in a basic Lanctek in the last GA and you are sitting pretty at 2k.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, and for those of you following along at home, it takes 27 BS 4 S 7 shots just to knock off one Stealthed/Jinked AV 13 HP. On this list you would just have to do that 39 times. Good luck with that.
Looks quite cheesy on the first glance, but I'm actually not sure it's all that good for what the meta might start to look like soon. It has nothing besides the warscythes against AV14, and Imperial Knights are also a thing now (probably even if lords of war aren't in your local meta). You could glance 'em to death with tesla, but it doesn't seem like it would actually work most of the time.
Running CCBs instead of destrolords might be the future if they're actually good, as with taking them crypteks become available and stormteks are something that's needed for the anti-AV reasons mentioned above. However, all this costs so much more, that you don't actually need a double FOC, as you won't have points for more than three annibarges anyway. Haven't really counted a list yet, as I'm not sure if I want to run wraiths without destrolords.
@MLKTH, the revised wraithwing is nasty. Nine destructors in 1850 points with 4 troops is going to cause problems for lots of opponents.
Your key point though is that the meta is likely to change to include more AV14 and flyers. We'll probably see an abundance of 2+ armour saves running around as well in various forms.
The AB is a great all round unit, however AP- is likely to hurt its utility in 7th. For dedicated AT (plus some psychic protection) Scarabs and spyders are better.
In the list you posted, I think it would do well in an Eternal War mission. Very well in fact...if we'd had double FOC in 6th under 2000pts I think Crons would have been very competitive based on that.
For Maelstrom missions in 7th though, there is a lot of shooting, but one would have to be very careful with scythe positioning to maintain the mobility of the superscoring troops.
More playtesting is needed, but for maelstrom so far my gut is saying 2-3 AB, 2 NS with min warriors +cryptek, 2 GA with min warriors +cryptek, 2x3 scarabs, 2x2 spyders will be a solid core. That's around 1200pts without overlords or CC/Assasination options.
Played my first game against Eldar last night. Same guy and same basic lists that we played back in 6th. Rather than 12 powers per turn, he only got of 2-3. Hammer and Anvil deployment, I was actually able to get into contact with his jetbikes (ie, my wraiths hadn't been shot off the table in 2 turns).
I think we're strong. I don't think that we should minimize the troops in the Ghost Arks, however. Those 5 extra bodies represent 1/3 of expected shooting output of the Ghost Ark.
Agreed Anpu-adom. I think you maximize the Ghost Ark and the Warriors inside when you fully load them with either 10 Warriors or 9+ Cryptek. Besides, it'll also help against the flamer hits we get in the vehicle. You can't use the repair rule if you don't have any Warriors left after they've been melted by either a heavy flamer, hellhound, or baleflamer.
I was just playing with the following build...
2 Overlords decked out on a CCBarge
5 5man Warrior squads in a Night Scythe
6 Annihilation Barges...
That fits in 1850 and only 2 CAD's... I'm not disappointed by a list that fits in 11 tesla destructors...
Mythra wrote: The Demons have been FAQed when they chariot up they lose IC. The Necrons have not been.
I played with a CCB leading some Wraiths. Just figuring out where hits go... who decides where hits go, and such... well, it was a bit of a pain. Losing IC would solve a lot of headaches.
I hate to burst this bubble, but you can't join a chariot and a rider to anything, even if it is an IC.
Firstly, even assuming you keep IC, which I don't think is the case (see the Dark Eldar FAQ), your unit type will be Chariot, with Independent Character special rule. Hence, the SurfLord is a vehicle.
Second, the chariot has a transport capacity of 1.
So, as the rider and unit are one you are either:
-trying to join a vehicle to an infantry unit (not allowed - the rule specifically states that characters cannot join units that CONTAIN vehicles); or
- the unit (being the wraiths with an IC) are partially embarked on the chariot, which is also not allowed.
Mythra wrote: The Demons have been FAQed when they chariot up they lose IC. The Necrons have not been.
I played with a CCB leading some Wraiths. Just figuring out where hits go... who decides where hits go, and such... well, it was a bit of a pain. Losing IC would solve a lot of headaches.
That is just so wrong.
I would never try that unless it was FAQ'd as legal.
MarkCron wrote: I hate to burst this bubble, but you can't join a chariot and a rider to anything, even if it is an IC.
Firstly, even assuming you keep IC, which I don't think is the case (see the Dark Eldar FAQ), your unit type will be Chariot, with Independent Character special rule. Hence, the SurfLord is a vehicle.
Second, the chariot has a transport capacity of 1.
So, as the rider and unit are one you are either:
-trying to join a vehicle to an infantry unit (not allowed - the rule specifically states that characters cannot join units that CONTAIN vehicles); or
- the unit (being the wraiths with an IC) are partially embarked on the chariot, which is also not allowed.
Nothing prevents your ordinary vehicle from joining units. The vehicle just doesn't have the ability to do so. If there was some mechanism that gave Independent Character to a vehicle, that vehicle could then join units as long as the units it was choosing to join were not composed of vehicles or monstrous creatures.
Chariot provides the mechanism that gives the Independent Character special rule to a vehicle. They FAQ'd away this ability in the Chaos Demon codex, which is a very critical bit of info since it shows clearly that they are very aware that the Independent Character rule is actively giving something to the Chariot and are choosing to take away the ability in the case of the Chaos Demon chariot. They did not take away the ability in the case of the Necron codex. Now, it certainly is within the realm of possibility that it is by some mistake or oversight that they did not also include a line in the Necron codex that takes away Independent Character special rule for the CCB, but in the absence of such a line it's very clear what you have to assume to be RAI, namely that the CCB can join units since it is indeed an Independent Character.
Whelp, all this tells me is that GW's ineptitude for clearing things up with FAQs is still as strong this edition as it's always been.
Somebody's probably going to need to compile a list of all the issues with the Necron codex still unresolved (eg. can a CCB be attached to units via IC rules? Can a Doomscythe's Death Ray be used to hit invisible units? Is Trazyn supposed to have the Objective Secured rule? etc.)
skoffs wrote: Whelp, all this tells me is that GW's ineptitude for clearing things up with FAQs is still as strong this edition as it's always been.
Somebody's probably going to need to compile a list of all the issues with the Necron codex still unresolved (eg. can a CCB be attached to units via IC rules? Can a Doomscythe's Death Ray be used to hit invisible units? Is Trazyn supposed to have the Objective Secured rule? etc.)
There is no ambiguity in terms of the Death Ray. You just resolve the Death Ray as you are supposed to. Invisibility provides no mechanism for preventing a Death Ray from doing what it does. It may seem to you and others that Invisibility should do something in this scenario, but currently there is no rules ambiguity.
MarkCron wrote: I hate to burst this bubble, but you can't join a chariot and a rider to anything, even if it is an IC.
Firstly, even assuming you keep IC, which I don't think is the case (see the Dark Eldar FAQ), your unit type will be Chariot, with Independent Character special rule. Hence, the SurfLord is a vehicle.
Second, the chariot has a transport capacity of 1.
So, as the rider and unit are one you are either:
-trying to join a vehicle to an infantry unit (not allowed - the rule specifically states that characters cannot join units that CONTAIN vehicles); or - the unit (being the wraiths with an IC) are partially embarked on the chariot, which is also not allowed.
To clearly state, I think that Necron Overlords on Catacomb Command Barges SHOULD loose the Independent part of Independent Character. Secondly, your argument has an issue. It is said that characters cannot join units that contain a vehicle, not that a vehicle character cannot join a unit. Same words, but a fundamental difference due to a change in word order. Finally, bringing up the idea of embarking wraiths just muddies the point. No one is attempting to do that.
Once again, however... It didn't work well in practice, and should not be allowed.
However... using the CCB as a blocking unit for the Wraiths and being the first to charge troops that have a lot of small arms fire and no heavy weapons... delicious!
skoffs wrote: Whelp, all this tells me is that GW's ineptitude for clearing things up with FAQs is still as strong this edition as it's always been.
Somebody's probably going to need to compile a list of all the issues with the Necron codex still unresolved (eg. can a CCB be attached to units via IC rules? Can a Doomscythe's Death Ray be used to hit invisible units? Is Trazyn supposed to have the Objective Secured rule? etc.)
There is no ambiguity in terms of the Death Ray. You just resolve the Death Ray as you are supposed to. Invisibility provides no mechanism for preventing a Death Ray from doing what it does. It may seem to you and others that Invisibility should do something in this scenario, but currently there is no rules ambiguity.
The consensus seems to be that via RAW you can shoot and hit an invisible unit with the Death Ray, but that could cause other problems because as currently written you could also use it to hit enemy units engaged in combat. It's tricky because, while it might be a good counter invisibility tactic, allowing Doomscythes to mow down enemy units tied up in combat is most definitely not the intended use, and the loophole could easily become abused (eg. Scarabs tie up big important unit (Wraithknight, deathstar, etc.). Zahndrekh removes Hit and Run, no way for them to get away. Spyders keep pumping Scarabs into the swarm. Doomscythes pass over several times over the course of the game, painting S10 AP1 lines over the tied up enemy unit which is helpless to do anything about it).
skoffs wrote: Whelp, all this tells me is that GW's ineptitude for clearing things up with FAQs is still as strong this edition as it's always been.
Somebody's probably going to need to compile a list of all the issues with the Necron codex still unresolved (eg. can a CCB be attached to units via IC rules? Can a Doomscythe's Death Ray be used to hit invisible units? Is Trazyn supposed to have the Objective Secured rule? etc.)
There is no ambiguity in terms of the Death Ray. You just resolve the Death Ray as you are supposed to. Invisibility provides no mechanism for preventing a Death Ray from doing what it does. It may seem to you and others that Invisibility should do something in this scenario, but currently there is no rules ambiguity.
The consensus seems to be that via RAW you can shoot and hit an invisible unit with the Death Ray, but that could cause other problems because as currently written you could also use it to hit enemy units engaged in combat. It's tricky because, while it might be a good counter invisibility tactic, allowing Doomscythes to mow down enemy units tied up in combat is most definitely not the intended use, and the loophole could easily become abused (eg. Scarabs tie up big important unit (Wraithknight, deathstar, etc.). Zahndrekh removes Hit and Run, no way for them to get away. Spyders keep pumping Scarabs into the swarm. Doomscythes pass over several times over the course of the game, painting S10 AP1 lines over the tied up enemy unit which is helpless to do anything about it).
In the case of using the Death Ray to kill some models locked in combat . . . there is no ambiguity here. The Death Ray can hit units locked in combat. To resolve a Death Ray you are dealing with 2 points on the battlefield and no mechanic of targeting units. Whether or not this is RAI is another issue. If I were a judge for a tournament I would allow it unless the venue had a specific rule disallowing this. Part of tourney play is finding the loopholes to be exploited. There is a definite loophole here. And savvy players should take advantage.
MarkCron wrote: I hate to burst this bubble, but you can't join a chariot and a rider to anything, even if it is an IC.
Firstly, even assuming you keep IC, which I don't think is the case (see the Dark Eldar FAQ), your unit type will be Chariot, with Independent Character special rule. Hence, the SurfLord is a vehicle.
Second, the chariot has a transport capacity of 1.
So, as the rider and unit are one you are either:
-trying to join a vehicle to an infantry unit (not allowed - the rule specifically states that characters cannot join units that CONTAIN vehicles); or
- the unit (being the wraiths with an IC) are partially embarked on the chariot, which is also not allowed.
Nothing prevents your ordinary vehicle from joining units. The vehicle just doesn't have the ability to do so. If there was some mechanism that gave Independent Character to a vehicle, that vehicle could then join units as long as the units it was choosing to join were not composed of vehicles or monstrous creatures.
Chariot provides the mechanism that gives the Independent Character special rule to a vehicle. They FAQ'd away this ability in the Chaos Demon codex, which is a very critical bit of info since it shows clearly that they are very aware that the Independent Character rule is actively giving something to the Chariot and are choosing to take away the ability in the case of the Chaos Demon chariot. They did not take away the ability in the case of the Necron codex. Now, it certainly is within the realm of possibility that it is by some mistake or oversight that they did not also include a line in the Necron codex that takes away Independent Character special rule for the CCB, but in the absence of such a line it's very clear what you have to assume to be RAI, namely that the CCB can join units since it is indeed an Independent Character.
That's incorrect. IC does not transfer to the CCB. It is a special rule that does not pass to the unit the IC joins. I think you're stretching the phrase "However, a chariot is always treated as a single model." a bit too far.
The entire paragraph reads "A Chariot is an unusual unit with a dueal profile - a non vehicle profile for the rider of the Chariot (see below) and a vehicle profile for the chariot itself. However, a Chariot is always treated as a single models. For the purposes of characteristics tests, always use the rider's profile. Furthermore, any characteristics modifiers that affect a chariot model apply to both rider and chariot"
So, it is clear that both models retain their own profiles, hence in this case the Overlord still has IC. However, the Chariot doesn't. BOTH the Chariot and the Overlord have to have IC for the combined unit to be able to join, because IC is not a special rule that transfers to the unit the IC joins.
The fact that GW has not updated the Necron FAQ to explicitly disallow the unit from joining (yet) does not imply that their intent was to allow the unit to join. Indeed, the FAQ will need to explicityly transfer IC to the Chariot or explicitly allow the Chariot to join units as if it was an IC in order for this to be legal imo.
MarkCron wrote: I hate to burst this bubble, but you can't join a chariot and a rider to anything, even if it is an IC.
Firstly, even assuming you keep IC, which I don't think is the case (see the Dark Eldar FAQ), your unit type will be Chariot, with Independent Character special rule. Hence, the SurfLord is a vehicle.
Second, the chariot has a transport capacity of 1.
So, as the rider and unit are one you are either:
-trying to join a vehicle to an infantry unit (not allowed - the rule specifically states that characters cannot join units that CONTAIN vehicles); or
- the unit (being the wraiths with an IC) are partially embarked on the chariot, which is also not allowed.
[snip]
Secondly, your argument has an issue. It is said that characters cannot join units that contain a vehicle, not that a vehicle character cannot join a unit. Same words, but a fundamental difference due to a change in word order.[/snip]
My argument is fine. An IC cannot join a unit that CONTAINS a vehicle. The Chariot is a vehicle, which the rider is embarked ON, so that doesn't contravene the rule. When you put the vehicle into a unit of wraiths (assuming it has the IC special rule, which it doesn't), the Overlord can't join the unit because it contains a vehicle. In order for this to be possible at all you need to show the rule from the rulebook which explicitly passes the IC special rule to the vehicle, because otherwise iit isn't a vehicle character in any event.
MarkCron - you are confusing the old way of handling Chariots with the new way. The Chariot is no longer a dedicated transport.
An IC does not join or embark upon a Chariot. It cannot disembark from the Chariot. The rider is inextricably part of the Chariot entity. The rider is one half of a dual profile that is collectively the Chariot, which is to be treated as a single model. There are no two entities, only a single entity.
The Chariot model has the IC rule not because it was tranferred by the IC but because the IC rule is on its dual profile.
The Chaos Demon FAQ specifically removes the IC rule from its Chariot because otherwise the Chaos Demon Chariot would have that rule as part of its dual profile.
col_impact wrote: MarkCron - you are confusing the old way of handling Chariots with the new way. The Chariot is no longer a dedicated transport.
An IC does not join or embark upon a Chariot. It cannot disembark from the Chariot. The rider is inextricably part of the Chariot entity. The rider is one half of a dual profile that is collectively the Chariot, which is to be treated as a single model. There are no two entities, only a single entity.
The Chariot model has the IC rule not because it was tranferred by the IC but because the IC rule is on its dual profile.
The Chaos Demon FAQ specifically removes the IC rule from its Chariot because otherwise the Chaos Demon Chariot would have that rule as part of its dual profile.
Actually, the FAQ is clear that the CCB has a transport capacity of 1, it's rider, which the Necron overlord becomes. There is no indication in the FAQ that the profile of the IC transfers to the Chariot. I am aware of the rule changes. My prior post was pretty clear - please cite the rule that you are relying on to transfer IC to the Chariot.
col_impact wrote: MarkCron - you are confusing the old way of handling Chariots with the new way. The Chariot is no longer a dedicated transport.
An IC does not join or embark upon a Chariot. It cannot disembark from the Chariot. The rider is inextricably part of the Chariot entity. The rider is one half of a dual profile that is collectively the Chariot, which is to be treated as a single model. There are no two entities, only a single entity.
The Chariot model has the IC rule not because it was tranferred by the IC but because the IC rule is on its dual profile.
The Chaos Demon FAQ specifically removes the IC rule from its Chariot because otherwise the Chaos Demon Chariot would have that rule as part of its dual profile.
Actually, the FAQ is clear that the CCB has a transport capacity of 1, it's rider, which the Necron overlord becomes. There is no indication in the FAQ that the profile of the IC transfers to the Chariot. I am aware of the rule changes. My prior post was pretty clear - please cite the rule that you are relying on to transfer IC to the Chariot.
From the Necron FAQ . . .
Spoiler:
Page 52 - Catacomb Command Barge
Replace 'Transport Capacity: The Catacomb Command Barge can carry one independent character' with 'Rider: Necron Overlord (pg 30).'
. . .
So, in the FAQ it specifically loses the notion of Transport Capacity.
Further, no transfer mechanism is required to transfer IC to the CCB. It's already on the CCB profile by virtue of the way in which Chariots are being defined in the rules. So by definition.
skoffs wrote: Whelp, all this tells me is that GW's ineptitude for clearing things up with FAQs is still as strong this edition as it's always been.
Somebody's probably going to need to compile a list of all the issues with the Necron codex still unresolved (eg. can a CCB be attached to units via IC rules? Can a Doomscythe's Death Ray be used to hit invisible units? Is Trazyn supposed to have the Objective Secured rule? etc.)
There is no ambiguity in terms of the Death Ray. You just resolve the Death Ray as you are supposed to. Invisibility provides no mechanism for preventing a Death Ray from doing what it does. It may seem to you and others that Invisibility should do something in this scenario, but currently there is no rules ambiguity.
Actually, I thought this way, but RAW, there's a catch.
You have to 1) Choose a unit to fire with, 2)Choose a target unit to fire at, then 3) select your weapon.
You have to choose a target to fire at with the Death Ray RAW. So you couldn't choose an Invisible unit as your target, because the Death Ray can't fire snap shots. You could choose another unit wihtout invisibilty, then just ignore the unit you said you were choosing to target and put your 2 points anywhere you like within range, but you do technically have to select a target unit for the Death Ray to fire at.
skoffs wrote: Whelp, all this tells me is that GW's ineptitude for clearing things up with FAQs is still as strong this edition as it's always been.
Somebody's probably going to need to compile a list of all the issues with the Necron codex still unresolved (eg. can a CCB be attached to units via IC rules? Can a Doomscythe's Death Ray be used to hit invisible units? Is Trazyn supposed to have the Objective Secured rule? etc.)
There is no ambiguity in terms of the Death Ray. You just resolve the Death Ray as you are supposed to. Invisibility provides no mechanism for preventing a Death Ray from doing what it does. It may seem to you and others that Invisibility should do something in this scenario, but currently there is no rules ambiguity.
Actually, I thought this way, but RAW, there's a catch.
You have to 1) Choose a unit to fire with, 2)Choose a target unit to fire at, then 3) select your weapon.
You have to choose a target to fire at with the Death Ray RAW. So you couldn't choose an Invisible unit as your target, because the Death Ray can't fire snap shots. You could choose another unit wihtout invisibilty, then just ignore the unit you said you were choosing to target and put your 2 points anywhere you like within range, but you do technically have to select a target unit for the Death Ray to fire at.
Except that the rules for Deathray do not require step two of that process. You pick a point on the ground, not a unit, to start the Deathray attack. After you pick a point, you roll 3D6, use that value to find a second point on the ground and every unit underneath the line gets hit by one attack per model under the line. For the Tesla Destructor that is also on the Doomscythe, it has to target a unit that was hit by the Deathray.
Only relevant difference between 6th and 7th is that in 7th, you now have to Choose a Target before you Select a Weapon (in 6th, I suppose everything was thought to fire at one time)
Going by the RAW of the Shooting Phase Sequence the Doom Scythe can choose to target any unit that it can see regardless of range or its ability to actually shoot at it with one of its weapons, so unless the invisible unit is alone on the table odds are the Doom Scythe would be able to target another unit and then shoot the Death Ray at the invisible unit regardless (though unless you manage to also hit the target unit with the Death Ray you won't be able to shoot the Tesla Destructor at the same turn).
Galorian wrote: Going by the RAW of the Shooting Phase Sequence the Doom Scythe can choose to target any unit that it can see regardless of range or its ability to actually shoot at it with one of its weapons, so unless the invisible unit is alone on the table odds are the Doom Scythe would be able to target another unit and then shoot the Death Ray at the invisible unit regardless (though unless you manage to also hit the target unit with the Death Ray you won't be able to shoot the Tesla Destructor at the same turn).
Here's the loophole. At no point in the "Choose a Target" section does it say the target unit has to be in firing range, only that you have to "check the range and line of site from your unit to the enemy unit you are targeting", and you have to have line of site. Range determinations come into play in the "Check Range" section of Step 3, "Select a Weapon. First part of that step is to select a weapon. Then Death Ray firing mechanics take over.
Thanks for pointing this out, dude. So pick anything you can see, and then fire anywhere you like.
Or just skip the "pick anything you can see" part, and shoot it like it was meant to be shot: 3d6 line of death originating at any point within 12" and advancing in any direction you want.
You can't shoot the Tesla Destructors at the target unit first? (and then have the Death Ray line "miss" that initial target and "accidentally" hit the invisible unit)
Otherwise, if you use the Death Ray first and hit the invisible unit, would you then be still required to fire the Tesla at the first unit (you target) or would you be free to fire them at the unit the Doomscythe actually already hit?
No, that much is clear...the Destrucktors must be fired at one of the units your Death Ray hits if they are fired in the same shooting phase. And the choice of your target there is yours to make.
@col_impact : going to YMDC thread so we don't get further off topic.
Back on topic,:
a) Crypteks: For me these are becoming auto includes because they allow min warrior squads with less risk that the squad will get wiped out (eg by baleflamer while in GA) but also because it remains the cheapest source of S8, AP2 shooting. As my maelstrom lists normally include 2 squads of scarabs, I'm finding that the lancetek is becoming the norm. However, on the weekend I tried the 10 tesla immortals with veiltek and that unit is massively useful for any maelstrom game.
b) Tomb blades. I bought my first box on the weekend (these things are fiddly to put together!) and decided to magnetise them (that's a little tricky, still haven't finished). But looking at them, I can see two uses.
First is stock, just 20pts, no shields, nebuloscopes or anything. In this config, I think they are quite useful, because it gives you twin linked tesla carbines 4+/4++/5+ (also S5, tesla to combat jink effect) with jet bike movement. This is handy for getting to far away objectives or contesting when not held by superscoring units. They are also useful for messing with the opponent movement phase, because they are quick enough to place so that superscoring units have to go around or through on their way to an objective. But they lack hitting power.
Second, nebuloscopes, particle beamers. This makes them almost twice their cost and means they can't shoot if they jink. However, you've now got a fast unit that can potentially put a lot of wounds on a unit, particularly if you take 5 of them. The problem is that 5 of them is almost the cost of GA+warriors.
So, I'm thinking small 60pt units of three are the way to go - use them for long range contesting, general movement blockers etc. Thoughts?
c) Zandhrek's phases reinforcement rule/Deathmark ethereal interception : Used this on the weekend in a Maelstrom game and it is very, very effective. I was using it for Deathmarks, and that worked well (brought one unit in on an objective to contest and dropped the other in the path of a superscoring unit so they had to go round), but was pretty luck with the scatter roles. However, if you used this with a Warrior unit in NS, it would be brutal. NS in and you can place your superscoring unit on the objective.
Am I missing something? Seen a couple of people talking about using Phased Reinforcements to bring in a Night Scythe. Think this rule only works with Deep Striking units, so not flyers, right?
Also, I'd advise Necron players bringing a Doom Scythe to check with the TO about how they are ruling them as usually in the UK they are (disappointingly) ruled to have to Target a unit before firing (regardless of points on the battlefield etc), that the unit they target must be the first they hit and that they must allocate their wounds as though the Ray were a hull mounted weapon. I speak from miserable experience.
I reckon two CCB overlords with maxed out cryptek courts joining Deathmarks and warriors in night scythes and three annihilation barges will be my necron tourney list in 7th.
God, if only Flayed Ones had a rule like Ethereal Interception they might actually be more useful.
(actually, seeing as how they can deep strike, I wonder what would be a better investment for late game objective grabbing: 65 points for 5 Flayed Ones, or 60 points for 3 Tomb Blades?)
Kholzerino wrote: Am I missing something? Seen a couple of people talking about using Phased Reinforcements to bring in a Night Scythe. Think this rule only works with Deep Striking units, so not flyers, right?
Also, I'd advise Necron players bringing a Doom Scythe to check with the TO about how they are ruling them as usually in the UK they are (disappointingly) ruled to have to Target a unit before firing (regardless of points on the battlefield etc), that the unit they target must be the first they hit and that they must allocate their wounds as though the Ray were a hull mounted weapon. I speak from miserable experience.
I reckon two CCB overlords with maxed out cryptek courts joining Deathmarks and warriors in night scythes and three annihilation barges will be my necron tourney list in 7th.
And you weren't incorrect, you have to come in by Deep strike even for Z. Wraiths or Praetorians FTW. Actually Flayed ones might work well too.
All CC goes against the front armor now, so that's good, kinda makes up for the loss of being able to leave CC.
I'm still getting through the new brb. What page are you seeing this on? That's freaking huge! No more rear armor in CC?! Sorry, I think my head just exploded....
Wow, I guess GW is planning on selling some CCB's, huh? I might have to leave early sick from work, run home and cuddle with my CCB's while I gleefully reread the chariot section
And everyone hated me for running 7 flyers - just wait...
necron99 wrote: Wow, I guess GW is planning on selling some CCB's, huh? I might have to leave early sick from work, run home and cuddle with my CCB's while I gleefully reread the chariot section
And everyone hated me for running 7 flyers - just wait...
7!?
I own 2 and feel like a bit of a douche if I end up playing both against an opponent that didn't bring any flyers or AA of his own...
Bringing two flyers is definitely not douchey. I'm thinking of cutting it down to five in 7th to make space for two CCB and still running 3 Annie barges...
Mythra wrote: The Demons have been FAQed when they chariot up they lose IC. The Necrons have not been.
I played with a CCB leading some Wraiths. Just figuring out where hits go... who decides where hits go, and such... well, it was a bit of a pain. Losing IC would solve a lot of headaches.
So I'm still trying to find something in the chariot section that I could use to claim that the CCB/OL is an IC and I'm just not seeing it. I see where it says the CCB/overlord has a dual characteristic profile and I do see where they say that ever living would apply to both CCB & OL but nothing says specifically that special rules the OL brings(i.e. IC) to the table carries over to the CCB. Are we saying because the RAW says it becomes one model and therefore both models merge special rules? I really need to be able sell this because I would love to have two of these heading up my wraiths units not to mention the wound shenanigans you can do (letting wraiths take a hit instead of the OL).
You're missing the Chaos Daemon FAQ where it specifically states that Heralds that take a chariot lose the IC status. If that was a rule in the book, there would be no need for it to be in the FAQ.
So using that logic (based on another armies FAQ) we're assuming that the special rules of both rider and chariot are normally merged into the single model?
Mythra wrote: The Demons have been FAQed when they chariot up they lose IC. The Necrons have not been.
I played with a CCB leading some Wraiths. Just figuring out where hits go... who decides where hits go, and such... well, it was a bit of a pain. Losing IC would solve a lot of headaches.
So I'm still trying to find something in the chariot section that I could use to claim that the CCB/OL is an IC and I'm just not seeing it. I see where it says the CCB/overlord has a dual characteristic profile and I do see where they say that ever living would apply to both CCB & OL but nothing says specifically that special rules the OL brings(i.e. IC) to the table carries over to the CCB. Are we saying because the RAW says it becomes one model and therefore both models merge special rules? I really need to be able sell this because I would love to have two of these heading up my wraiths units not to mention the wound shenanigans you can do (letting wraiths take a hit instead of the OL).
Ghaz wrote:You're missing the Chaos Daemon FAQ where it specifically states that Heralds that take a chariot lose the IC status. If that was a rule in the book, there would be no need for it to be in the FAQ.
There's a thread in YMDC on this, if you are interested, you can check it out. And no, I don't think it is an IC.
Just had my 1st game with Necrons in the new 7th Edition, and I ran the Bargelord (Overlord on a CCB).
Played against a competitive Tau list with 3 riptides, 3x2 broadsides, 2 pathfinders and 3 troops in devilfish.
I played it both ways - with the bargelord able to join a unit of wraiths and with it independently.
I must say, joining the bargelord to a unit of wraiths is COMPLETELY BROKEN, especially when you factor in Look-Out-Sirs. After Turn 2, my opponent just conceded. It was that stupid.
I then played against him with the bargelord as not being able to join units. It was much more bearable....but still, a bargelord with a 4+ Ever-living roll (ResOrb) and that can move 30" in 1 turn is incredibly effective against the right armies.
In short, I will use the bargelord both for its sweep attacks and as a combat unit, depending on which is readily available. It would also depend on the army I will be facing. For example, you really don't want him in combat with 30-zombies, though he is ideal for killing riptides and those annoying wave serpents.
Yes, use the barge to soak up the overwatch. One of the cool things is that, even if it gets hit by meltas or lascannons, you can then transfer any immobilized/weapon destroyed damage onto the Overlord himself instead.
Yes, he bargelord was fully stocked with wargear, including ResOrb, phylactery and 2+/3++. The jury is still out with regards to the 3++, but I am telling you now that he will never be without a ResOrb.
Yes, he bargelord was fully stocked with wargear, including ResOrb, phylactery and 2+/3++. The jury is still out with regards to the 3++, but I am telling you now that he will never be without a ResOrb.
Yeah, I'm right there with you on that. The 3++ is questionable because Jink+Stealth can proxy it against shooting, but it's still pretty effective, both in CC and when they can ignore cover. The Res Orb, Phylactery, etc are all pretty decent takes on the solo Barge Lord now though. I'm even considering throwing the T Lab on him just to give him a better answer to hard core MCs like WKs.
jy2 wrote: Just had my 1st game with Necrons in the new 7th Edition, and I ran the Bargelord (Overlord on a CCB).
Played against a competitive Tau list with 3 riptides, 3x2 broadsides, 2 pathfinders and 3 troops in devilfish.
I played it both ways - with the bargelord able to join a unit of wraiths and with it independently.
I must say, joining the bargelord to a unit of wraiths is COMPLETELY BROKEN, especially when you factor in Look-Out-Sirs. After Turn 2, my opponent just conceded. It was that stupid.
I then played against him with the bargelord as not being able to join units. It was much more bearable....but still, a bargelord with a 4+ Ever-living roll (ResOrb) and that can move 30" in 1 turn is incredibly effective against the right armies.
Look Out Sir changed in 7th.
Pg 100
Under "Look out Sir and Shooting" It states that "When a Wound is allocated to one of your non-vehicle characters,and there is another model from the same unit within 6",he is allowed a Look out,sir attempt"
I was looking at the night shroud bomber recently and it seems to me its a pretty awesome unit.
Considering the bomb rules....a str10 ap1 large blast that can effectively negate cover (barrage rules) that no matter what has interceptor, your bomb is going to go off...then when you get shot at you can still jink for a 4+ that isn't a huge impact to the destructors as your looking for 6s to hit anyways...
is this not the bane to most anti air units in the game? I can just picture my buddys unit of broadsides...all huddle together
It's a great unit! I've used mine a few times, but it's not cheap.
Also, bike and jet bike armies can out maneuver it since it can only pivot once then must go at least 18". And long range shooty armies can stick to the board edges, then you cant land past them, and cannot bomb them.
But I do like the unit, even the model looks decent. Very deadly payload.
The Night Shroud is far too expensive for what it brings to the battlefield. On paper, it looks good. The price, however, is too high. And to make it worse, it's part of the slot with the best Necron units. AB and Sentry Pylons are too good to pass on.
Not sure if you've noticed but the pylons got a huge nurf. You snap fire at all ground targets, and use full BS against skimmers and flyers.
Interceptor no longer gives you the ability to use full BS against ground units, so the heavy slot has no competition anymore, every detachment should have 3 barges.
Oh, I did. All of them now use the Focused Death Ray. It basically means that either your opponent does not field infantry or all of his vehicles / fortifications will be molten down to ashes with a single shot. And if he fields infantry, they either have a very good ++ or are dead on arrival as well.
Only the Gauss Exterminator pylon has skyfire/interceptor.
EDIT: My friend and I house rule that skyfire snapfire crap to not exist because i'll be ing damned if £200 worth of models are made redundant by an arbitrary rules change.
How do you best use the Death Ray Pylons? Deep striking them gets expensive. Deploy them on your deployment edge as near the centre as poss? Do you take units of 1, 2 or 3? I've got some and want to play em, but not sure how best to utilise.
Heat Cannons are way too expensive. The Focused Deathray deals much more damage and is downright ridiculous due to its wording. The same people that complained about the Gauss pylon before now beg me to use Gauss again
Kholzerino wrote: How do you best use the Death Ray Pylons? Deep striking them gets expensive. Deploy them on your deployment edge as near the centre as poss? Do you take units of 1, 2 or 3? I've got some and want to play em, but not sure how best to utilise.
Take 3, have an Overlord with Phaeron and Vagard Obyron deploy joined with the unit in your backfield (preferably behind LoS blocking terrain and/or cover) and have them deepstrike as close as safely possible to the single largest concentration of enemy forces on the board.
Que opponent flipping the table after 3 3d6" lines of Focused Death Ray doom eviscerate the bulk of his army in a turn 1 alpha strike.
P.S.
Might not be the best idea if you want that opponent to ever play with you again.
Sigvatr wrote: Heat Cannons are way too expensive. The Focused Deathray deals much more damage and is downright ridiculous due to its wording. The same people that complained about the Gauss pylon before now beg me to use Gauss again
What do you mean its wording? I've been playing it as it does 2 hits on everything it passes over as opposed to the normal death rays 1. Surely...
skoffs wrote: So without a Phaeron there to give it Relentless, Pylons aren't able to fire after deepstriking?
Also, what exactly is so ridiculous about the way it's worded?
(is it a loophole people abuse that needs to be FAQ'd or something?)
They took out the ruling saying artillery couldn't move and shoot in 7th. Why bother making that distinction if almost certainly artillery is going to be heavy or something that can't be snap fired anyway? In any case my friend and I play it with the Pylons scuttling around firing.
What do you mean its wording? I've been playing it as it does 2 hits on everything it passes over as opposed to the normal death rays 1. Surely...
skoffs wrote: So without a Phaeron there to give it Relentless, Pylons aren't able to fire after deepstriking?
Also, what exactly is so ridiculous about the way it's worded? (is it a loophole people abuse that needs to be FAQ'd or something?)
.
Said that in another thread when talking with Skoffs. If you hit e.g. 4 infantry models in a unit and 1 vehicle, both the infantry unit AND the vehicle BOTH get 10 hits. Yes, even the vehicle. The regular Death Ray would only deal 1 hit vs. the vehicle and 4 vs. the unit.
And bar super-heavies or sth., 4+ S10 AP1 hits will melt vehicles.
...and on top of that, 7th removed the "cannot move and shoot" rule so for the lulz, you could Pharon them around.
Bonus round: Kulakh can mount a CCB and becomes a true Destroyer of Worlds. Like, really.
What do you mean its wording? I've been playing it as it does 2 hits on everything it passes over as opposed to the normal death rays 1. Surely...
skoffs wrote: So without a Phaeron there to give it Relentless, Pylons aren't able to fire after deepstriking?
Also, what exactly is so ridiculous about the way it's worded?
(is it a loophole people abuse that needs to be FAQ'd or something?)
Said that in another thread when talking with Skoffs. If you hit e.g. 4 infantry models in a unit and 1 vehicle, both the infantry unit AND the vehicle BOTH get 10 hits. Yes, even the vehicle. The regular Death Ray would only deal 1 hit vs. the vehicle and 4 vs. the unit.
Ah, yes, that wording. Yet another example of bad writing that needs to be FAQ'd.
Basically it comes down to, "don't play it this way if you're playing a fun game", as this is some serious WAAC territory.
But even if played RAI, it's still pretty good.
So how much would 3 Death Ray Pylons + Obyron + an Overlord with Phaeron cost you for an extreme alpha strike?
Basically it comes down to, "don't play it this way if you're playing a fun game", as this is some serious WAAC territory.
To be fair, I blame GW for removing the Gauss Pylon from the game. It was very well-balanced and with 7th became useless. If it was usuable again, I'd use it as the FDR is pretty darn OP vs. a lot of army compositions.
So how much would 3 Death Ray Pylons + Obyron + an Overlord with Phaeron cost you for an extreme alpha strike?
Roughly 1 friendship
About 850-900 points.
Add in 2 Nightscythes with troop tax and 2 units of 6 Wraiths and suddenly, the entire game takes place in the enemy deployment zone. Or replace 1 unit of Wraiths with 1 CCB. And add the 2 mandatory AB of course.
You will likely lose, though it's really hilarious. Then again, 3 FDR in turn 1 will kill every single thing without a good ++.
Why are you even bothering buying them in bundles if it's not saving you anything?
What makes it worse is that the "Canoptek Crawlers" bundle is crap! If there had been one more box of Wraiths and additional Spyder, maybe then it would have at least made list-creation sense (so you'd have balanced maxed units), but the biggest head scratcher is the fact that they included ZERO Scarabs. The one thing that may have made this bundle appealing (in that you can't buy them individually), and they omit it in favor of a Stalker?! (the synergistically worst choice they could have made, in that Canoptek units tend to be combat orientated and the Stalker is a unit that buffs shooters).
I'm assuming GW is aiming this bundle to appeal to people who have no idea about the game... which is deplorable, as once someone buys it and realizes how they got screwed, there's a chance it'll put them off wanting to continue spending money on these things.
As the scarabs are part of the warriors sprue, I doubt they will sell them separately, The Stalker does throw the Canoptek theme off, they could have had an extra spyder in there, priced it at $200 and they've had my money. Probably better off going to ebay or amazon for the models.
Apparently these bundles aren't meant to be sold- according to FLGS staff who had a meeting with with a GW representitive and the guy told them that the bundles are there to "raise awareness" to models and army concepts...
Galorian wrote: Apparently these bundles aren't meant to be sold- according to FLGS staff who had a meeting with with a GW representitive and the guy told them that the bundles are there to "raise awareness" to models and army concepts...
That just seems to be a waste of digital artist time and web programming assets... which is totally up GW's alley.
Sigvatr wrote: Cool "army concept", putting a model that improves friendly ranged models in a box with melee only models.
I believe the bundle is based on the "army concept" of "Triarch Stalkers aren't selling so we need to find a way to shove them in people's faces".
Idea meeting:
"These models aren't selling, what do we do?"
"Bundle them with stuff that people want?"
"Bundle them with stuff that people want AND make it no cheaper than buying it separately?"
"How about we-- and just hear me out on this one, guys-- how about we make an adjustment to the codex entry via a FAQ errata so people actually WANT to use it?"
"... You're fired. Now tell me about that no cheaper than buying it separately plan..."
Hi folks! First post here. Saw something that I haven't seen anyone discuss. Did you folks realize that our Monolith just became the king of ramming?!? So it's half AV, for 7. The add 1 for tank, then 2 for being heavy. That's a Str 10 hit! Sure the monolith is slow, but if you deepstrike it, it might be a nice trick. Not a game winner, but something cool to think about if you're trying to decide on taking a monolith or not.
could be useful in a Maelstrom game, ramming a superscoring landraider/transport parked on top of an objective. Course, you have to wreck it. What AP is a ramming attack?
NecronLord3 wrote: Except for psychic defense and tournaments not allowing the Transcendent C'tan.
Necrons do have some degree of psychic defenses thanks to Gloom Prisms (which IIRC now stack going by RAW), though the lack of deny dice is hardly much of a penalty considering how nigh-unstoppable most psychic powers were in 6th with their trivially easy Ld tests and the inability to do squat about blessings. Psychic powers are also less reliable at the moment.
As for the C'tan... How is this any different from 6th exactly?
Besides, the TOs where I live are generally a bunch of GW White Knights who call the BRB "the Good Book" and treat it as sacrosanct, not making any kind of TO rulings/houserules on ANYTHING ( ), so the only thing that keeps me from bringing my C'tan to these tournaments is my own kindhearted nature and the occasional low point limit (though given the fact the last one was dominated by a Tyranid Flying Circus with Riptide+Buffmander taking second place I might come to reconsider this whole "kindhearted nature" thing next time).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sigvatr wrote: Yeah, the lack of psychic defense is just stupid. The race that's most resistant to the influence of the Warp has no defense against it. Legit.
True dat.
Should be getting deny dice for Crypteks at least, if nothing else...
Pariahs need to be back in some form, maybe, as you suggested, in form of a Cryptek. The Necrons are the technologically most advanced race in the universe and haven't come up with a proper defense for one of the major parts of 40k wars?
Excuse me while I drive a few trucks through that plothole.
Sigvatr wrote: Pariahs need to be back in some form, maybe, as you suggested, in form of a Cryptek. The Necrons are the technologically most advanced race in the universe and haven't come up with a proper defense for one of the major parts of 40k wars?
Excuse me while I drive a few trucks through that plothole.
NecronLord3 wrote: The C'tan are the Necrons technological counter to psychic attacks. Raw unharnessed power of a solar deity defeated the old ones.
You do realize that the Necrons canonically do have technological means of countering warp powers, right?
Hell, you only need look as far as Cadia (you know, the system that's actively pushing back the Eye of Terror from its vicinity thanks to the ancient Necron tech buried under its surface?) to see them in action.
... still say Gloom Prism should have been an equipment option for Lords/Overlords.
>:/
(or maybe for Lychguard or Praetorians, so they could have really been the true successors to Pariahs)
At the moment, the HS slots are too valuable to fill with three separate units of Spyders just to give yourself some extra psychic defense.
skoffs wrote: ... still say Gloom Prism should have been an equipment option for Lords/Overlords.
>:/
(or maybe for Lychguard or Praetorians, so they could have really been the true successors to Pariahs)
At the moment, the HS slots are too valuable to fill with three separate units of Spyders just to give yourself some extra psychic defense.
You could always fill up Elite slots with some GP Tomb Stalkers for a paltry 220pts apiece...
NecronLord3 wrote: The C'tan are the Necrons technological counter to psychic attacks. Raw unharnessed power of a solar deity defeated the old ones.
You do realize that the Necrons canonically do have technological means of countering warp powers, right?
Hell, you only need look as far as Cadia (you know, the system that's actively pushing back the Eye of Terror from its vicinity thanks to the ancient Necron tech buried under its surface?) to see them in action.
I do, but that's not what won them the war versus the old ones. The C'tan did.
It's to big a foot print to risk a deep strike mishap. The only way it really works is to disembark Zandrek and use Obyron to DS a large squad with no scatter.
skoffs wrote: ... still say Gloom Prism should have been an equipment option for Lords/Overlords.
>:/
(or maybe for Lychguard or Praetorians, so they could have really been the true successors to Pariahs)
At the moment, the HS slots are too valuable to fill with three separate units of Spyders just to give yourself some extra psychic defense.
That's actually a pretty smooth idea (in regards to LG or Praets).
One unit of Spyders isn't a bad investment, though, especially when you now can potentially have 6 slots. My big problem is both Fab Claw and GP are tempting investments, but then they start to get a tad expensive. Maybe one naked, two with both? I'm currently working on a Necron castle build that hides a squad behind a Mono. Because of the Mono, I've thought about just giving all three Fab Claws, because more then two GP seems unneeded now, right?
Still, though, three Spyders with Fab Claws hiding behind a Mono whose hiding behind some GAs. Sprinkle with SPs to taste. That's a pretty tough little nut to crack.
Jaceevoke wrote: What is your guys opinion on running Veilteks with 20 man strong necron warrior units. Is the speed worth the inherent risks?
Running veilteks with a 10 man squad of tesla immortals is brilliant, particularly in a Maelstrom game. You could use Gauss, but I prefer Tesla because then you have more flexibility where you drop in.
As was said, i reckon the footprint for 20 warriors is too big.
@shadar,
I agree on the Spyders - kitting them with Fab claws and GP get's expensive. I reckon that would only be worthwhile if you were going to separate them into individual units - which is easily doable if you play double CAD. Although they are easier to take down, you get more flexibility and a bigger GP bubble.
I agree on the Spyders - kitting them with Fab claws and GP get's expensive. I reckon that would only be worthwhile if you were going to separate them into individual units - which is easily doable if you play double CAD. Although they are easier to take down, you get more flexibility and a bigger GP bubble.
Exactly. That or hide them behind our good old Mono. I think the biggest thing we tend to forget in our forum world of math hammer and vacuum analysis is what a boon to tactical flexibility it is to have a giant, mobile, hard to take down, LOS blocker. It's like a 0+ invulnerable shield to a pure support unit like Fab Claw Spyders.
I'm not sure what that list is quite yet but I have a feeling it includes some AV 13 to add to the Mono's AV 14 mystic. Maybe some solar pulses to give the Mono a 4+ cover with careful GA placement? Honestly, and it's the weapon profile I would generally pick last, I'm thinking of pairing it with a Particle Shredder. That seems to be a pretty solid one two punch with the Mono's Particle Whip.
It's an interesting build, but I think it could be a winner in todays Maelstrom environment, because every unit would be a nightmare to take down in today's S6 and S7 spam meta. Robbing them of every little AV 13/14 HP victory that they get with your Spyders. Dropping pie plates and maybe some AB love. I'm honestly thinking about pairing it with the old 4 Lanceteks (one Pulse) and a Chronotek to go in the pair of GA's. Maybe Zandy for some tank hunting love? Would be a fun list. Hard as nails with a few death droppers.
Hey guys, I've seen a lot of talk about how awesome Kutlakh is now on a CCB. But what makes him more awesome then say a kitted up overlord? (asking because I don't have access to the Imperial Armour book atm having lent it out to a mate)
Tactically in a Maelstrom game, you'd have to split up I think (or you have to pair them up?) so that you could get to all the objectives reasonably quickly. So, you'd deepstrike them in along the centreline around 28" in from the side board edges? If you only had one, you'd have the Lith covering one side, then use AV13 on the other side, I reckon.
So you have the Lith dominating each side of the Board, in which case you may not need GA transports? Except you'd need to have the transports to keep the troops alive in T1. Hmmm. Might need to play with a list - my instinct is saying this is an 1850+ level strategy, because below that you'd lose too much mobility? Same number of objectives, but too many points invested in slow moving Liths.
Have to confess I don't currently have a Lith because we play with giant LOS blocking terrain anyway and I prefer faster moving lists. However, your suggestion is an interesting thought and I'm getting curious now. (also, it just seems wrong that I don't have a Lith! ) Liths would be excellent on HA deployments actually.
Evil thought has just occurred, if you had Zandy, you can bring the liths in on the opponent turn if they bring in reserves. That should get some attention!
So you have the Lith dominating each side of the Board, in which case you may not need GA transports? Except you'd need to have the transports to keep the troops alive in T1. Hmmm. Might need to play with a list - my instinct is saying this is an 1850+ level strategy, because below that you'd lose too much mobility? Same number of objectives, but too many points invested in slow moving Liths.
Yeah, it's definitly 1850+, but I was thinking only one Lith.
Basically, a Lith, Two GA's running out as arms in front, with a couple of Tomb Stalkers hanging around behind. Spyders and and an initially small investment of scarabs behind the Lith. Grab Center hard. Troops hide, come on from reserves. Use the GAs to house a couple of Lancetek Squads. This way your are housing a serious amount of death behind AV 13 3/4+ Cover saves. From center with the amount of real estate you can cover you can easily touch any mid board objective with two GAs. Then you have the Mono teleport to grab some warriors for a late game cap of center if needed.
This is the first thing that came to mind:
Spoiler:
HQ:
175 Zandy
90 Generic Olord
RCs:
200 Lancetek x 4 Chronotek + 1 Solar Pulse
200 Lancetek x 4 Chronotek + 1 Solar Pulse
Elites:
165 Heavy Gauss Stalker
160 Particle Stalker
Troops:
180 Warriors x 5 + GA 180 Warriors x 5 + GA
FA:
45 Scarabs x 3
HS:
200 Mono
195 TS x 3 FC x3 GP x 1
I think that's 1790? I would likely want to push it to 2k, as it needs some flesh. Its troops light, in a way, but those GAs are pretty beastly, and the Warriors will hide most of the game if needed, kind of NS style. I could grab a Barge for the other Olord, maybe beef him up a bit. That's actually not a bad call....
Nice. Everything squishy wrapped up in armour or off the board.
Not sure I'd take Chrono because you're probably going to be twinlinked anyway (can the chrono allow reroll for the GA it's embarked on?).
With those spare points (plus the points from the chrono) I'd be more thinking tesla immortals. In T1 you'll only have 2 superscoring units (the GA) with attendant spyders and scarabs, plus the stalkers. I assume you'll DS the lith? Or would the plan be to start it at 12" then hustle it forward to centre board?
Have to say I was picturing a different list, something more foot based...
HS 65 1x Spyder, GP, FC 65 1x Spyder, GP, FC 65 1x Spyder, GP, FC
I think my points are off cos I haven't got my codex, but this should be around 2000. In this case I'd start the Lith off the board, and use GA backed blobs deployed on a flank. then I'd DS the Lith onto the opposite flank, suck a blob, scarabs and a spyder through, and see if I could meet in the middle!
Automatically Appended Next Post: You can't pull a GA through a Lith can you? It's too big, right?
So you have the Lith dominating each side of the Board, in which case you may not need GA transports? Except you'd need to have the transports to keep the troops alive in T1. Hmmm. Might need to play with a list - my instinct is saying this is an 1850+ level strategy, because below that you'd lose too much mobility? Same number of objectives, but too many points invested in slow moving Liths.
Yeah, it's definitly 1850+, but I was thinking only one Lith.
Basically, a Lith, Two GA's running out as arms in front, with a couple of Tomb Stalkers hanging around behind. Spyders and and an initially small investment of scarabs behind the Lith. Grab Center hard. Troops hide, come on from reserves. Use the GAs to house a couple of Lancetek Squads. This way your are housing a serious amount of death behind AV 13 3/4+ Cover saves. From center with the amount of real estate you can cover you can easily touch any mid board objective with two GAs. Then you have the Mono teleport to grab some warriors for a late game cap of center if needed.
This is the first thing that came to mind:
Spoiler:
HQ:
175 Zandy
90 Generic Olord
RCs:
200 Lancetek x 4 Chronotek + 1 Solar Pulse
200 Lancetek x 4 Chronotek + 1 Solar Pulse
Elites:
165 Heavy Gauss Stalker
160 Particle Stalker
Troops:
180 Warriors x 5 + GA 180 Warriors x 5 + GA
FA:
45 Scarabs x 3
HS:
200 Mono
195 TS x 3 FC x3 GP x 1
I think that's 1790? I would likely want to push it to 2k, as it needs some flesh. Its troops light, in a way, but those GAs are pretty beastly, and the Warriors will hide most of the game if needed, kind of NS style. I could grab a Barge for the other Olord, maybe beef him up a bit. That's actually not a bad call....
Pretty sure you meant to write Spyders, not Tomb Stalkers...
So, looking at the way things are stacking up for us post FAQ, what would the top competitive builds be now?
• CCB is super strong, and GAs became a lot more survivable, so AV13 Wall looks like a strong contender.
• with swarms being able to score and the changes to MCs, Scarab Farm might make a bit of a comeback.
• RCDI has still got some serious potential.
• not sure how Silver Tide is doing.
• is Wraith Wing still viable?
• how's CronAir looking?
• what about some other thinking outside the box list ideas (Deathmarks? Destroyers? Tomb Blades? Etc.)
CronAir got a huge buff with the massive nerf to Skyfire weapons. They will be much more scarce.
CCB will definitely see more plays now, they are nasty due to very weak rules backing them up.
Wraithwing is as valid as ever and got a buff with the CCB now fully protecting them from small arms fire.
Silver Tide got a good buff too with the buff to GA, giving them a free 4++ every turn. Lack of are terrain might be a problem, depends on your area. GA now being super-scoring is another very good change for them.
Gauss Sentry Pylons got a massive nerf that made them useless, Focused Death Ray is the way to go now and makes people cry bitter tears, wishing Gauss back.
Basically, good stuff got better, trash stays trash.
skoffs wrote: So, looking at the way things are stacking up for us post FAQ, what would the top competitive builds be now?
• CCB is super strong, and GAs became a lot more survivable, so AV13 Wall looks like a strong contender.
• with swarms being able to score and the changes to MCs, Scarab Farm might make a bit of a comeback.
• RCDI has still got some serious potential.
• not sure how Silver Tide is doing.
• is Wraith Wing still viable?
• how's CronAir looking?
• what about some other thinking outside the box list ideas (Deathmarks? Destroyers? Tomb Blades? Etc.)
I personally think Ancanthrites are stronger than Wraiths, especially with the advent of more people taking vehicles.
Tigurius was a supreme psyker, the most accomplished of his Chapter, perhaps of any Chapter. There were others with power, of course: hooded Ezekiel, enigmatic Vel’cona, dreaded Mephiston. All were masters of their art but Tigurius was of the Ultramarines, the purest of all Space Marines, and his abilities were prodigious. Even so, he struggled to find a path through the necron shroud and the fear they propagated. His mind had touched that of the necrons. It found only infinite darkness and endless hate. There was something buried in that well of nothingness, a warning; he felt certain of it. Without knowing why, he realised it was important and that by not seeking the truth of that vision he would be allowing some heinous evil to pass. Tigurius had fortified himself, performed the many rituals and psychic mantras designed to steel his mind against any potential aggressors. The Herald was strong, far more potent than he had first realised. Tigurius resolved that this time he would be prepared. Inscribed in the ice with the pommel of his force staff were three concentric rings. Double-banded, he had also wrought sigils of warding and aversion to bind them together. Tigurius crouched down in the centre, his eyes closed, and tried to ride the darkling waves of his subconscious. Everlasting night filled his mind, the fearful voices of the humans pushed to the fringes and no longer a distraction. He went deeper and fashioned a psychic beacon that he attached around the Hood of Hellfire like a halo. Still, the darkness would not yield. Landscapes resolved below him as he soared across Damnos as a mental projection of himself. It was grey and bland, the life had left it. Was this a vision of the future? Was he witnessing their ultimate failure? Something glowed up ahead and Tigurius soared towards it. Psychic winds buffeted him, tried to throw him off course and dash him against the rising mountains on either side. He renewed his efforts, making his body into an arrow that sliced the air apart and cut through the tempest. For a moment, a tiny light shone below him but it was fleeting and quickly snuffed out. The glow ahead intensified, turning from a phosphorescent white into a sickly emerald. Too late, Tigurius realised the danger he was in and tried to flee. The light became a blazing green orb that reached for him with the tendrils of its light. One caressed the Librarian’s arm and pain, hot and incandescent, fed into his body. His heart was thundering, a dull ache filled his head and a keening wail deafened his thoughts. Must return… All his efforts were focussed on getting back but something was stretching the psychic landscape below, reshaping it so the distance became lightyears instead of leagues. Behind him, the baleful sun rose further and its tendrils grew with its influence. They lashed at the Librarian like the appendages of some ocean-borne beast, a kraken or leviathan of old. Tigurius was forced to weave and pin wheel and dart as the sparrow eludes the eagle. Though he had not moved from his chosen spot since the vigil began, he still felt the physical exertion of his efforts. Mind and body were concomitant aspects of most beings – one affected the other. At that moment as he angled through the mental sky, his mind was being put to the sternest test and it visited that self-same tension upon his body. Back at his vigil point, Tigurius had blood in his mouth and a tremor in his limbs. Maintain focus… Below, grey mountains and cities became monuments of emerald and obelisks of necron devotion and servitude. Death… The wind promised a certain end should he let the green light touch him. Only light can outrun light and in so doing bend the laws of time. That revelation prompted a response. Tigurius fashioned his arrowing form into a beam, pure and focussed and so thin it left the baleful sun in its wake. The crouching form of his physical body loomed before him, solace for his mind at last.
Tigurius came to swathed in a feverish sweat. It took a moment to regulate his breathing, another to ensure he had awakened in the physical world and this reality he inhabited was not merely verisimilitude. The vision was beyond his grasp. It lay behind the emerald sun and the Herald was preventing him from seeing it. With that obstacle alone, Tigurius might have triumphed but combined with the darkness shroud, it was near impossible. He did witness something, however. The snuffed-out light – it was a glimpse of the future. Prescience was guiding him to something, some event yet to transpire. It must be close; otherwise he would not have seen it. Somehow, the keening he had heard was a component of that possible future. Like the vision, he knew deep down that it was important. That he must act. Though his limbs protested, Tigurius got to his feet and let his instincts pull him. The mountains beckoned. Drifts that had yet to fall upon the lower regions swathed the peaks in a storm. He headed upwards, leaving his battle-brothers behind. They were deep in the valley, monitoring the Thanatos Hills. Urgency governed the Librarian’s step – there was no time to summon the other Ultramarines, no time at all.
[...]
Marshal your thoughts. Now was not the time to seek out the elusive truth and uncover the forbidding threat that had dogged him since the mission began; now was destruction and the unleashing of his psychic might. At last, he caught his prey, surrounded by a hot corona of red light. It was standing alone on a desolate ridge, surveying its majesty. Inside his mind, Tigurius coaxed a ball of lightning into being.
[...]
Psychic lightning arced from Tigurius’s force rod. It struck Voidbringer’s staff as he turned, breaking his strange torpor. A serpent of light and energy, the discharged psychics roiled down the haft of the weapon. He wrestled with it, trapping the force as it coursed across the staff and asserting dominance. Tigurius’s eyes widened. That bolt should have ripped the creature apart. Energies dissipating from the psychic attack, Voidbringer turned his attention to the Librarian facing off against him on the ridge. A nimbus of power was playing across the psychic hood the Ultramarine wore and his eyes were alive with actinic force. He held the rod out in front of him, so it formed a cross with his body as the spine. ‘Fell creature of the void, oblivion awaits you.’ Unmoved by the threat, Voidbringer only glared. The necron lord appeared… curious. Again, Tigurius was surprised and horrified at the ancient intelligence in that gaze. It was like the mechanoid was appraising a laboratorium specimen. The sensation was unsettling. Tigurius knew enough of the galaxy and its species to realise mankind’s pre-eminence was far from assured. Alien races clamoured to devour, usurp or study humans. It was part of the reason the Emperor had created Space Marines. But the necrontyr were something different, something so old and enduring that even an Adeptus Astartes as powerful as Tigurius was given pause. Victory against this aeons-old culture with all their knowledge of the universe, their advanced technology, it was… impossible. They should give in now, submit to will of the necrons and accept annihilation. They should– Stop! The psychic echo was as much a command to his own subconscious as it was to the metal monster. Reasserting his composure, Tigurius smiled mirthlessly at the Voidbringer. ‘I thought the other one was the Herald of Dismay.’ Though his rictus jaw didn’t move, a metallic voice, edged with the bitterness of millennia and abyssal deep, droned from the Voidbringer. ‘You are the one who tried to penetrate the veil.’ Tigurius nodded slowly. He felt like an insect being studied beneath a slide, but his resolve was as steel now. ‘I am your doom, creature.’ A tinny, grating sound rattled from the necron’s mouth. It was laughter, or what passed for it at least. Describing arcane sigils of warding that lingered in the air in fire, Tigurius beckoned the monster on. Voidbringer’s eyes narrowed. ‘Are you a pyromancer, worm?’ A flash of light burst from the staff before the Librarian could stop it and hit him square in the chest. Tigurius was spun off his feet and sent sprawling from the ridge. ‘Not a very good one,’ he heard the necron lord remark. Picking himself up, the Librarian scowled. ‘I think I loathed your race less when I assumed you were humourless machines.’ Fire sprang from his fingertips, reaching up towards the ridge line above and forcing the Voidbringer to retreat. Earth blackened and cracked as the flames lapped at the edge of the spur, spilling over the lip of rock rising higher and growing hotter. Snow condensed into steam in an eyeblink, scalding the air. The necron’s withdrawal didn’t last. A hazy silhouette resolved through the conflagration and the Voidbringer leapt through it, fire trailing on his ancient vestments. Ice cracked under the impact as the necron lord landed next to Tigurius. He threw out an arm, bodily catching the Librarian who was smashed aside and scraped across the ground. Blood was drooling down his lip as he rose; he could taste the tang of it in his mouth too. Voidbringer was strong, much more unyielding than the lesser constructs. And he possessed cunning beyond mere programmed response to attack and external stimulus. The necrons, especially these noble castes, were far from machines. Even artificial intelligence didn’t describe them accurately. They were something else, something vengeful and terrible. Spite, hatred, malice – the emotions were raw and tangible. Tigurius could feel them like tiny blades rubbing against his skin, like acid-edged pins in his mind. Though the creature was not a psyker – it bore no warp-aura that the Librarian could detect – the artefacts he wielded were formidable. As the Voidbringer rose, energy crackled the length of its arcane staff. It coruscated around the tip, a strange pronged sigil Tigurius had seen emblazoned on the carapace of some of the larger constructs. Darkness exuded from his body. Tendrils of night coiled around his limbs and weaved through the necron’s skeletal frame. The monster was well named. Casting about, the Voidbringer assessed the level of infiltration by the Ultramarines and acted accordingly. Shadows stirred in the mist around Tigurius as the necron constructs guarding the artillery began to animate. ‘You are no warp sorcerer,’ said the Librarian, his voice echoing with gathering power. The Voidbringer’s eye sockets flared emerald-bright and Tigurius was transported back to his narrow escape in the world-between-worlds. ‘I am more than you could ever comprehend, human. I am eternal!’ A cascade of magnesium fire coursed from the necron’s staff. Tigurius was ready for the attack and quickly fashioned a defensive sigil in the air. The arc of flame spilled against it, dispersing around the edges of a cerulean shield. It struck again, the necron throwing more force behind the blow. Staggered, Tigurius struggled to maintain his footing but repelled the energies. Sweat froze upon his brow as quickly as it formed, only to melt into hot steam a moment later. He needed to assert dominance in the duel and threw a bolt of chained lightning. Voidbringer’s body became as incorporeal as mist as the darkling mantle he wore engulfed him, rendering the psychic attack ineffective. The Night Shroud expanded, drawing strength from the blackness surrounding the artillery. Shreds of shadow became as hard as onyx as they wrapped themselves around Tigurius and all light was eclipsed. As the baleful gaze of the Voidbringer filled his vision, the Librarian felt his armour contract. Seals cracked, ancient parchments and votive charms tore and broke apart as the necron lord exerted his cruel will. ‘All is night. All is black at the end of days…’ Tigurius was fading. His mind was awash with endless darkness. It filled his senses, overwhelmed his thoughts and in that moment of near-destruction he achieved a mote of clarity. The visions, those that had dogged the Librarian since he’d made landfall on Damnos, became as clear as crystal. Death, it was death that he saw. Not the death of a world but the death of a hero. At first he believed it was him and this was, now, the instant of his demise. But the visions sharpened, just as the real world dimmed, and became more lucid. The truth was opened to him, a final torment before the end. Tigurius saw…
...
The smoke cleared. As the two Ultramarines emerged from the cloud, their objective came into sight – they’d reached Tigurius. At least they could achieve something. Another necron was coming at them out of the ice-fog and Scipio was forced to meet it. He only had time to point at the darkness crushing Tigurius. ‘Shoot it!’ Cator hesitated. ‘I might hit Lord Tigurius.’ ‘Do it now, brother!’ The shriek of chainblade teeth striking metal sounded close by. Muttering an oath to the primarch, Cator took aim into the dark veil and fired. Pain was an outmoded concept in the experiential range of the Voidbringer. He had long ago outgrown the capacity to feel the sensation. Even so, he knew he was injured and the desire for self-preservation still influenced his actions. In order to find his attacker, he had to release the pyromancer. He was nearly dead, anyway. Voidbringer resolved to eradicate this new threat and then finish what he had started. Darkness billowing about him, withdrawn from crushing the pyromancer, the necron lord searched the battlefield. He unleashed the power of his staff and the hot beam found Voidbringer’s enemy and pitched him off his feet.
‘Insect!’ The brief moment of pique cost him. When he turned his attention back to the pyromancer he saw his enemy was far from defeated, he was glowing. An aura of power surrounded Tigurius, chasing away the darkness from the necron lord’s unnatural veil. It was a magnesium-bright sun, banishing the shadow with the Librarian as its focus. Jagged forks of lightning peeled off from the aura around his body. His eyes were alive with a captured storm, mirroring the tumultuous thunderhead surging into being around him. The air cracked with the sound of his voice. ‘Now you die, machine.’ Bolt after bolt of psychic lightning hammered into the Voidbringer, who reeled beneath the blows. A crack split the monster’s chest, tore off an arm. His arcane staff spilled away on the eldritch wind summoned by the Librarian. Harsh and metallic, the necron lord roared as if in agony. Tigurius doubted it could feel, it was merely railing against its imminent demise. Even when the Voidbringer was nearly sundered, he didn’t stop – Tigurius poured it on, opening his mind to the warp and releasing its terrible power. Psychic lightning was ripping into his body, tearing away strips, burning mechanisms so old and complex that no human mind could ever hope to understand them. It was happening too fast – even the Voidbringer’s enhanced regenerative abilities couldn’t self-repair quickly enough. A mote of something cold and unpleasant flickered in his engrammic circuitry. Something akin to anxiety seized his aeons-old mind for just a moment as the necron lord contemplated the long dark. I am the master of darkness, not its slave… The self-declaration seemed pointless in the circumstances. Escape was still possible. He would not submit yet. Voidbringer would be royarch. He would self-repair, kill this worm that had stung him and assume the throne. Ankh, the self-aggrandising plebeian, had given him the means to do it. Before he was lost, Voidbringer activated the resurrection orb. The monster was almost destroyed. Scipio watched from a safe distance, the broken body of Cator in his arms. A long burn marred the Imperial eagle on his plastron, but at least Cator was still alive. He glared, willing retribution on the necron lord. Leaking fluids, machine parts crackling and fizzing in his skeletal armature, the Voidbringer was done. Tigurius was relentless and so too was the storm blazing from his fingertips. It lit up the plateau, searing away the ice-fog. Scipio’s eyes narrowed. Something was happening amidst the storm. Impossibly, the necron lord was self-repairing. Despite the fact his form was being stripped apart by psychic fire, the Voidbringer was regenerating! Living metal pooled together, running in rivulets over his shattered body, and started to form fresh carapace. Seemingly terminal wounds in the necron were reknitting, sealing. Scipio noticed the orb in the monster’s chest. It was black like onyx and shimmered as the regeneration process perpetuated itself. Thumbing the activation stud on his chainsword, Scipio knew what he had to do. To step into that lightning meant certain death. It was a small price. He only hoped his sacrifice would be enough.
- Fall of Damnos
He would have won too, if not for the damn Cryptek giving him a sabotaged Resurrection Orb!
So yeah, sure, Necrons have no decent Psyker defenses... Right...
Credit for looking up the quote goes to a friend from another forum.
skoffs wrote: So, looking at the way things are stacking up for us post FAQ, what would the top competitive builds be now?
• CCB is super strong, and GAs became a lot more survivable, so AV13 Wall looks like a strong contender.
• with swarms being able to score and the changes to MCs, Scarab Farm might make a bit of a comeback.
• RCDI has still got some serious potential.
• not sure how Silver Tide is doing.
• is Wraith Wing still viable?
• how's CronAir looking?
• what about some other thinking outside the box list ideas (Deathmarks? Destroyers? Tomb Blades? Etc.)
I personally think Ancanthrites are stronger than Wraiths, especially with the advent of more people taking vehicles.
Well you can spend 5 points for a ranged shot and an additional attack on the Wraiths again.
skoffs wrote: So, looking at the way things are stacking up for us post FAQ, what would the top competitive builds be now?
• CCB is super strong, and GAs became a lot more survivable, so AV13 Wall looks like a strong contender.
• with swarms being able to score and the changes to MCs, Scarab Farm might make a bit of a comeback.
• RCDI has still got some serious potential.
• not sure how Silver Tide is doing.
• is Wraith Wing still viable?
• how's CronAir looking?
• what about some other thinking outside the box list ideas (Deathmarks? Destroyers? Tomb Blades? Etc.)
I personally think Ancanthrites are stronger than Wraiths, especially with the advent of more people taking vehicles.
Well you can spend 5 points for a ranged shot and an additional attack on the Wraiths again.
Has there been any discussion about Trazyn's ability counting as "super scoring?" Haven't seen that mentioned anywhere, FAQ or otherwise, but I think it would be the logical adaptation.
@ Galorian. Not sure where you are getting the suggestion that the Necrons had no psychic defense. Clearly they did, but in game they effectively don't minus gloom prisms which isn't much. I would love for crypteks to have viable counters to psychic powers, but in their current incarnation they don't.
In fluff the Old Ones fought off the Necrontyr to the furthest corners of the galaxy until they were little more than a minor annucence easily kept at bay by the old ones. It was the Necrontyrs discovery of the Star Gods that allowed them to fight and eventually win the war in heaven, and the Old Ones accidental release of the enslavers that ultimately defeated the Old Ones.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Necrontyr#.U5pzLtq9KK1 http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Necron#.U5pyFtq9KK0
Would that mean if the Necron's released all of the star gods from our shards and if the mars star god was released they together would have enough power to take on the chaos gods?
NecronLord3 wrote: @ Galorian. Not sure where you are getting the suggestion that the Necrons had no psychic defense. Clearly they did, but in game they effectively don't minus gloom prisms which isn't much. I would love for crypteks to have viable counters to psychic powers, but in their current incarnation they don't.
I thought it was pretty obvious I was being cynical and bemoaned the fact the Necrons lack decent anti-psyker options.
Hell, the book quote I put up showed special-snowflake-super-psyker-from-the-one-true-SM-chapter Tigurius get his ass handed to him on a silver platter by a Necron Lord, and in a "psychic duel" no less.
bodazoka wrote: If fluff justified rules then a space marine would cost around 175 ppm.
So I suppose in-game Eldar aren't fast, Tau don't have godly firepower or suck in melee, Guard doesn't have tons of tanks and masses of cheap infantrymen, Sisters have no faith powers, Dark Eldar don't thrive on pain, Grey Knights aren't a bunch of psykers and Tyranids don't have any hive mind related abilities...
Everything in this game is "justified" by fluff, which is why many people are justifiably annoyed in cases where fluff is butchered.
In-game Space Marines ARE vastly superior to standard humans, which fits the fluff. Just because the statistical difference isn't as great as it is in books doesn't mean you can go "lol, fluff is meaningless!!1" (or, rather, you can, but don't expect people to take the argument kindly).
So, back on topic, I think that CronAir and Wraithwing are better suited to Eternal War Missions, but Silver tide (maybe with a mini scarab farm)/AV13 wall is the build of choice for Maelstrom.
I think that Night Scythes are still great transports, but in a Maelstrom mission the turn or two you miss when waiting for them to come on is critical.
Barges, Barges, and more Barges. And Solar Pulses. And Barges. That's my thoughts on 7th so far (oh, and the Lith, because he likes hanging out with Barges)!
Be wary of templates, though, and hug cover as hard as you can to avoid getting insta-gibbed.
oh well.
ing damned if £200 worth of models are made redundant by an arbitrary rules change.
Saw something that I haven't seen anyone discuss. Did you folks realize that our Monolith just became the king of ramming?!? So it's half 
Sure the monolith is slow, but if you deepstrike it, it might be a nice trick. Not a game winner, but something cool to think about if you're trying to decide on taking a monolith or not.
