I'm also considering getting a thunder hammer captain.
What do people think? Is this enough high s damage to take out tanks etc? What would be good ways of getting more?
Anti-tank is a problem deathwatch have for sure. Also you can only have two storm cannons if I am not mistaken. Frag cannons are pretty solid anti-tank, but you'll need more than four. Is the point value 2k?
In my 2k list I ran last week, I ran three Veteran squads with 3 combi-meltas delivered by Razorbacks. They were the MVP of the match. I need more experience with them, but DW have the tools to deliver meltas with things like storm shields, obsec, and some great strats to improve them.
Not at all a large enough sample size. One match isn't enough to really suggest their widespread use. After all, some of these units are hard to put together without a ton of time/money. But if you're trying to do full DW, don't forget that melta is still a thing, and that DW have tools to mitigate the worst parts about it.
Anybody else try melta vets in the storm bolter meta? My build ended up being 3 combis, two storm shields, and a frag Cannon inside a razorback for a pittance more than the 5 Intercessor, 5 Hellblaster squad.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Why in the world would you spend points on any Combi-Weapon not a Combi-Plasma?
Why on earth would you take anything other than frag cannons, storm bolters and stormshield mooks?
Combi-Plasmas would be cheaper than Frag Cannons I guess. That's about the only reasoning I can think up.
I want to say they're 15 points. For 25 points you get a much better gun. It's lethal to all targets in the game and makes charging you with an absolutely hard as nails thing to do. Even tanks charging into multiple frag cannons will lose some wounds.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Why in the world would you spend points on any Combi-Weapon not a Combi-Plasma?
Because the Vets don't need help dying. Mathhammer also shows they cause more damage than the plasma for AT.
Keep in mind we're talking mono DW solutions here, which last I checked are still a marine army, so there's really no point in making choices based on min max.
The melta was fun as hell, and the extra couple bolter shots were fantastic when hunting big characters. With knights hitting the stage near me, I can see these suicide melta squads putting in work.
As far as antitank DW options go, I've just stripped a Xiphon and I'm stoked to add it to the armoury. It is exactly what DW need imo. Plus you know, jet-black interceptors screaming overhead is cool.
I'll struggle to fit the xiphon in my list and not sure I want to shell out on another fw model. Although it does look cool, I worry about the bs 3, as it would be hard to get rerolls.
Anyone had luck with a vanguard vet hammer squad?
I think with hellblasters, 4 Las, storm cannons, I have a solid fire base... but there is something missing for the added punch.
mrtomski wrote: I'll struggle to fit the xiphon in my list and not sure I want to shell out on another fw model. Although it does look cool, I worry about the bs 3, as it would be hard to get rerolls.
Anyone had luck with a vanguard vet hammer squad?
I think with hellblasters, 4 Las, storm cannons, I have a solid fire base... but there is something missing for the added punch.
I understand there might be more optimal HQ options but I'm not putting Primaris next to standard size Marines. My OCD forbids it from happening.
Personally I'd still opt for the plasma pistol powerfist option. He's putting out a respectable amount of hurt in CQC and can make pew pew noises with his plasma pistol for 106 points I believe. Otherwise I'd go with a Primaris with a master crafted auto bolt rifle and power sword. He won't be as good in melee by a long shot, but he will offer respectable shooting at longer ranges with his gun for 98 points. Considering your shooting is already pretty solid i'd prefer to have a more combat capable leader for the extra points to ward off some attackers, but I could see opting for the shootier guy.
I understand there might be more optimal HQ options but I'm not putting Primaris next to standard size Marines. My OCD forbids it from happening.
Personally I'd still opt for the plasma pistol powerfist option. He's putting out a respectable amount of hurt in CQC and can make pew pew noises with his plasma pistol for 106 points I believe. Otherwise I'd go with a Primaris with a master crafted auto bolt rifle and power sword. He won't be as good in melee by a long shot, but he will offer respectable shooting at longer ranges with his gun for 98 points. Considering your shooting is already pretty solid i'd prefer to have a more combat capable leader for the extra points to ward off some attackers, but I could see opting for the shootier guy.
This was partly what I was thinking. A decent CC option to fend off models from intercessors. Guess I'll give both a try and see how it goes!
Yeah a hammer captain with catellan of the black vault and a jump pack with the beacon could be nasty. Dmg 4 hammer with 5 attacks rerolling 1s to hit, rerolling to wound with tactics , and +1 to wound strat. Use the beacon to reposition frag cannon team to your location and put a hurting on a target like a knight. Pop the strat that allows the captain to attack again and potentially do up to a max 40 dmg. You buff him with a Libby using veil of time and might of heros for the charge reroll/ attack first, and +1 S attack and toughness.
TheunlikelyGamer wrote: Yeah a hammer captain with catellan of the black vault and a jump pack with the beacon could be nasty. Dmg 4 hammer with 5 attacks rerolling 1s to hit, rerolling to wound with tactics , and +1 to wound strat. Use the beacon to reposition frag cannon team to your location and put a hurting on a target like a knight. Pop the strat that allows the captain to attack again and potentially do up to a max 40 dmg.
The problem here is that Blood Angels do this exact thing, but better.
TheunlikelyGamer wrote: Yeah a hammer captain with catellan of the black vault and a jump pack with the beacon could be nasty. Dmg 4 hammer with 5 attacks rerolling 1s to hit, rerolling to wound with tactics , and +1 to wound strat. Use the beacon to reposition frag cannon team to your location and put a hurting on a target like a knight. Pop the strat that allows the captain to attack again and potentially do up to a max 40 dmg.
The problem here is that Blood Angels do this exact thing, but better.
True but I wouldn't call it a problem. some people like myself only play pure armies. This is our option for a similar unit. Was also thinking the captain could shoot the tempest shell at something with his pistol on the way in for d3 mortals.
TheunlikelyGamer wrote: Yeah a hammer captain with catellan of the black vault and a jump pack with the beacon could be nasty. Dmg 4 hammer with 5 attacks rerolling 1s to hit, rerolling to wound with tactics , and +1 to wound strat. Use the beacon to reposition frag cannon team to your location and put a hurting on a target like a knight. Pop the strat that allows the captain to attack again and potentially do up to a max 40 dmg.
The problem here is that Blood Angels do this exact thing, but better.
True but I wouldn't call it a problem. some people like myself only play pure armies. This is our option for a similar unit.
In that case I see your point. I also like to play my factions pure, but struggle to justify taking an option that is entirely worse than the direct equivalent found in another book. Without the 3d6 charge though I do find it hard to justify taking a jump captain though. He won't get in combat turn one, probably won't get in combat turn two and even then he is not that killy. Also you probably wan't him around you're guys to buff them. However keeping him on the ground buffing and as a viable counter attack unit could work, yeah. Personally I'd skimp out on paying the points for the JP, but yeah I wouldn't say he would be bad in the role of protecting your shooty boys.
Martel732 wrote:BA usually don't have the damage 4 hammer, since it gives away slay warlord for free.
And Deathwatch wouldn't have a four damage hammer without making them the warlord either.
Rogerio134134 wrote: Bit confused about veterans, can they have a storm bolter AND a chainsword ?
Yes. Always swap out the pistol for a chainsword. You'll VERY rarely ever be in a position to use the pistol and it saves you from having to pay that stupid one point for it.
Martel732 wrote: So all DW really loses is red rampage. DW has actual useful troops. More than makes up, imo.
Compared to the blood angel captain you lose
Turn 1 charge, (Massive)
3d6 charge (Massive)
Psychic power support to buff your attacks,
stratagem to give you d3 additional attacks,
relic to ignore overwatch, (Massive)
Stratagem to give the guy a 6+ FNP and one more attack
What you gain
Re-roll ones to wound if you are attacking the force org slot that your whole army gets.
Special issue ammo bolt pistol
--
There really is no contest. The blood angel smash captain is king. If you are looking for a smash captain you will go to the blood angels every time.
Rogerio134134 wrote: Bit confused about veterans, can they have a storm bolter AND a chainsword ?
Yes. Always swap out the pistol for a chainsword. You'll VERY rarely ever be in a position to use the pistol and it saves you from having to pay that stupid one point for it.
Thanks, just putting together a squad and wasn't sure!
Martel732 wrote: So all DW really loses is red rampage. DW has actual useful troops. More than makes up, imo.
Compared to the blood angel captain you lose
Turn 1 charge, (Massive)
3d6 charge (Massive)
Psychic power support to buff your attacks,
stratagem to give you d3 additional attacks,
relic to ignore overwatch, (Massive)
Stratagem to give the guy a 6+ FNP and one more attack
What you gain
Re-roll ones to wound if you are attacking the force org slot that your whole army gets.
Special issue ammo bolt pistol
--
There really is no contest. The blood angel smash captain is king. If you are looking for a smash captain you will go to the blood angels every time.
I was thinking the generic capt with no relics. People bring multiples a lot, and only one can do those things. They usually die the turn thereafter. I'm not sure how good the whole approach really is.
Martel732 wrote: So all DW really loses is red rampage. DW has actual useful troops. More than makes up, imo.
Compared to the blood angel captain you lose
Turn 1 charge, (Massive)
3d6 charge (Massive)
Psychic power support to buff your attacks,
stratagem to give you d3 additional attacks,
relic to ignore overwatch, (Massive)
Stratagem to give the guy a 6+ FNP and one more attack
What you gain
Re-roll ones to wound if you are attacking the force org slot that your whole army gets.
Special issue ammo bolt pistol
--
There really is no contest. The blood angel smash captain is king. If you are looking for a smash captain you will go to the blood angels every time.
I was thinking the generic capt with no relics. People bring multiples a lot, and only one can do those things. They usually die the turn thereafter. I'm not sure how good the whole approach really is.
Even without relics the blood angel captain still works and you can chuck one every turn. And yeah they will die the turn after, but even then they soak up firepower that the rest of your army does not need to take. 5 wounds with a 3++ and 6+++ can take a few kickings.
Martel732 wrote: So all DW really loses is red rampage. DW has actual useful troops. More than makes up, imo.
Compared to the blood angel captain you lose
Turn 1 charge, (Massive)
3d6 charge (Massive)
Psychic power support to buff your attacks,
stratagem to give you d3 additional attacks,
relic to ignore overwatch, (Massive)
Stratagem to give the guy a 6+ FNP and one more attack
What you gain
Re-roll ones to wound if you are attacking the force org slot that your whole army gets.
Special issue ammo bolt pistol
--
There really is no contest. The blood angel smash captain is king. If you are looking for a smash captain you will go to the blood angels every time.
I was thinking the generic capt with no relics. People bring multiples a lot, and only one can do those things. They usually die the turn thereafter. I'm not sure how good the whole approach really is.
Even without relics the blood angel captain still works and you can chuck one every turn. And yeah they will die the turn after, but even then they soak up firepower that the rest of your army does not need to take. 5 wounds with a 3++ and 6+++ can take a few kickings.
Absolutely true - no contest on any of these points. That isn't to say the jump captain isn't a good option if you need that type of unit and can't find the points to fit it into your list otherwise. Sometimes quantity can be its own quality and you bring a couple of these thunder hammer/storm bolter guys that don't eat up as much CP, aren't relying on additional psykers, and don't require a whole other detachment to unlock. Obviously not the most efficient, but then again this is a marine army
Whatever you are doing don't bring 10 man primaris squads if there are knights on the table. One of them will have the endless death to marines gun which in my last games this weekend was able to remove a unit per turn. And the other knights with battle cannons + whatever else they were shooting removed another one.
I ran 2 bats
1x watch capt
1x libby
1x primaris + aggressors
1x primaris + bolter inceptors
1x vet KT 2x shields, 2x frag cannons, 1x storm bolter (ds)
In both games vs knights I lost 2 units of mixed primaris (aggressors + inceptors) both turn 1 and turn 2. Was effectively tabled by end of turn 3 (a couple characters running around here and there but nothing that was going to do me any good). Not enough range given the random deployment and insane mobility + range combo of those knights.
Also dark eldar shred them and then there's the ever present threat of eldar reapers. I was enthusiastic about DW making primaris usable but after this weekends debacle I'm seriously having second thoughts.
Not being able to deepstrike until turn 2, relying on smash captains and frag cannons to deal with 3+ knight lists and not having the range to threaten anything going 1st turn one turned my 2 DW battalion + BA into a punching bag against the netlist (not to disparage but just to say the lists were what you would see at the top table of a GT, maybe the players aren't as good but they sure do have all the hot models) in my local meta.
I managed to kill 1 knight and some armigers the first game and just the 1 knight in the second (had a second knight down to 4 wounds) but was effectively tabled after their third round. The third game v eldar was close and if it wasn't for some -4 to hit reflecting mortal wounds back at me harlequin shenanigans that I admittedly wasn't prepared for I probably would have won.
I'll probably refine a few things (second bat gets hellblasters instead of aggs and inceptors) and try again but the ease at which top tier armies remove primaris is frustrating.
Martel732 wrote: So all DW really loses is red rampage. DW has actual useful troops. More than makes up, imo.
Compared to the blood angel captain you lose
Turn 1 charge, (Massive)
3d6 charge (Massive)
Psychic power support to buff your attacks,
stratagem to give you d3 additional attacks,
relic to ignore overwatch, (Massive)
Stratagem to give the guy a 6+ FNP and one more attack
What you gain
Re-roll ones to wound if you are attacking the force org slot that your whole army gets.
Special issue ammo bolt pistol
--
There really is no contest. The blood angel smash captain is king. If you are looking for a smash captain you will go to the blood angels every time.
I was thinking the generic capt with no relics. People bring multiples a lot, and only one can do those things. They usually die the turn thereafter. I'm not sure how good the whole approach really is.
Even without relics the blood angel captain still works and you can chuck one every turn. And yeah they will die the turn after, but even then they soak up firepower that the rest of your army does not need to take. 5 wounds with a 3++ and 6+++ can take a few kickings.
Absolutely true - no contest on any of these points. That isn't to say the jump captain isn't a good option if you need that type of unit and can't find the points to fit it into your list otherwise. Sometimes quantity can be its own quality and you bring a couple of these thunder hammer/storm bolter guys that don't eat up as much CP, aren't relying on additional psykers, and don't require a whole other detachment to unlock. Obviously not the most efficient, but then again this is a marine army
Anybody tried the meltafist Termie captain?
I did one with a Melta Fist, Grenade Launcher, and Storm Bolter. It's not good (at all) but it was so much fun.
Vortenger wrote: How are you using the grenade launcher? Neither codex nor index let DW take that as far as I can tell. I want to be wrong.
Battlescribe (erroneously) lists it as an Index option, but after flipping through the Index it looks to be a mistake. It's possible folks just don't have the Index on hand to verify what Battlescribe says for options.
Normal Termie Caps for codex marines can take it, but the DW page is pretty strict on what options for wargear they have.
It's a pity Heavy Thunder Hammers aren't good enough to solve some of the AT woe.
I think the index states to used the Vanilla captain entry, which has that as an option.
(edit) looks like I was wrong. DW Terminator Captains are basically forbidden from changing default weapons, thus they can't have the Grenade launcher.
Vortenger wrote: How are you using the grenade launcher? Neither codex nor index let DW take that as far as I can tell. I want to be wrong.
Battlescribe (erroneously) lists it as an Index option, but after flipping through the Index it looks to be a mistake. It's possible folks just don't have the Index on hand to verify what Battlescribe says for options.
Normal Termie Caps for codex marines can take it, but the DW page is pretty strict on what options for wargear they have.
It's a pity Heavy Thunder Hammers aren't good enough to solve some of the AT woe.
The Index does have it though? Did I miss that? I know they're definitely strict about stuff.
mrtomski wrote: I'll struggle to fit the xiphon in my list and not sure I want to shell out on another fw model. Although it does look cool, I worry about the bs 3, as it would be hard to get rerolls.
Anyone had luck with a vanguard vet hammer squad?
I think with hellblasters, 4 Las, storm cannons, I have a solid fire base... but there is something missing for the added punch.
What are your captains up to?
My hq at the moment is watchmaster, lib, and captain with a jump pack with the beacon. The idea is he goes up the field with the rhino and teleports an intercessor / hellblasters squad. Or saves one which is in trouble later in the game.
I'm tempted to drop the lib, but having some defence against smite seems very wise with this army.
Vortenger wrote: How are you using the grenade launcher? Neither codex nor index let DW take that as far as I can tell. I want to be wrong.
Battlescribe (erroneously) lists it as an Index option, but after flipping through the Index it looks to be a mistake. It's possible folks just don't have the Index on hand to verify what Battlescribe says for options.
Normal Termie Caps for codex marines can take it, but the DW page is pretty strict on what options for wargear they have.
It's a pity Heavy Thunder Hammers aren't good enough to solve some of the AT woe.
The Index does have it though? Did I miss that? I know they're definitely strict about stuff.
It's a bit complicated. The Index vanilla marine captain in Terminator armour has it, and the Deathwatch section says to use that data sheet. However, the Deathwatch Wargear section says the only change to default wargear an Index Deathwatch captain in Terminator armour can make is a relic blade over a power sword. Sadly, no nade launcher available :(
Well you can take some options as of the Deathwatch FAQ:
ERR ATA Page 67
– Watch Captain in Terminator Armour,
Wargear Options
Change the first bullet point to read:
‘• This model may replace its storm bolter with a
lightning claw, storm shield, thunder hammer or one
item from the
Terminator Combi-weapons
l i st .’
Change the second bullet point to read:
‘• This model may replace its relic blade with a lightning
claw, storm shield or one item from the
Terminator
Melee Weapons
l i st .
Since I'm running some Scions for command points I was going to use them as a suicide screen.
2x bare bones Scion squads deepstriking in with a Tempestor giving out double orders. 1CP for a lovely squad of SB/SS/Frag vets with a vanguard to shoot n scoot. 1CP for rapid fire Intercessor/Hellblaster blender also with an Inceptor to shoot n scoot. 1CP for big daddy Watch Master handing out alternate tactic with the Tome of Ectoclades.
3rd Scion squad sits in my backfield along with second Tempestor with CP regen relic (along with Lord of Hidden knowledge on Watch Master) to screen my Chaplain Dreads dumping Lascannons into those dirty xenos.
What do you all think about layering for the deepstrike?
The sad thing about bare bones Scions is that with 18" guns they have to deep strike out of Rapid Fire range. I tried this for a while, but ultimately switched to regularly infantry for the backfield with the Scions mostly saved as a Plasma drop command squad.
Anyone consider using detachment of normal space marines to assist with anti tank? Thinking of adding 3 autocannon/lascannon sponsor preds in a spearhead detachment led by a techmarine.
Rogerio134134 wrote: Anyone consider using detachment of normal space marines to assist with anti tank? Thinking of adding 3 autocannon/lascannon sponsor preds in a spearhead detachment led by a techmarine.
Rogerio134134 wrote: Anyone consider using detachment of normal space marines to assist with anti tank? Thinking of adding 3 autocannon/lascannon sponsor preds in a spearhead detachment led by a techmarine.
The predator squad is ok at best. You will rarely get to use their stratagem due to one of them dying (and they will die) plus the autocannon is not that amazing against tanks. If you want support of the tank nature you probably want to look at Imperial Guard tanks or raven guard FW Mortis dreadnoughts.
Rogerio134134 wrote: Anyone consider using detachment of normal space marines to assist with anti tank? Thinking of adding 3 autocannon/lascannon sponsor preds in a spearhead detachment led by a techmarine.
Hellblaster squad with 5 intercessor meatshields are durable, effective, and fill a troop slot.
I like Dreads because you can teleport them point blank, but I'm wondering if I wouldn't be better served by agressors.
Rogerio134134 wrote: Anyone consider using detachment of normal space marines to assist with anti tank? Thinking of adding 3 autocannon/lascannon sponsor preds in a spearhead detachment led by a techmarine.
IG are much better at it.
And they just bleed secondary points in the ITC missions too.
I have, but my local meta has shifted away from ultra competitive once the group of hardcore netlisters stepped away from the game. They were so important to balance around here, so it's left a hole. Now the quality of the lists is up and down around here - lots of folks eager to either play the models they like or try off the wall crazy gak. Hell, I've even jumped in and started playing combi-meltas.
So take this with a grain of salt, but a dread detachment is awesome.
Rogerio134134 wrote: Anyone consider using detachment of normal space marines to assist with anti tank? Thinking of adding 3 autocannon/lascannon sponsor preds in a spearhead detachment led by a techmarine.
Hellblaster squad with 5 intercessor meatshields are durable, effective, and fill a troop slot.
I like Dreads because you can teleport them point blank, but I'm wondering if I wouldn't be better served by agressors.
Yeah, that Intercessor squad is also almost 300 points.
How good are aggressors, they can't use sia right? I'm planning on two squads of vets with storm bolters and frag cannons plus a hellbaster mixed squad. I'm thinking I'll have enough sia dakka that more standard bolter shots won't be needed...
Had a game against my own 2k Thousand Sons list last night. I was shocked to absolutely romp home with it! I ran 2 teams of assault intercessors with 1 aggressor in each squad - they both did amazing work. Their advance and shoot allows you to set them up for next turn, when their aggressor can go all spray n'pray.
mrtomski wrote: How good are aggressors, they can't use sia right? I'm planning on two squads of vets with storm bolters and frag cannons plus a hellbaster mixed squad. I'm thinking I'll have enough sia dakka that more standard bolter shots won't be needed...
Agressors are great but they are high-priority targets for your opponents due to the low wounds and dangerous powerfists. You'll need to either pay the CP to teleport them or buy the 5 intercessors to act as meatshields. I normally advocate the 5 man intercessor option, but there is the serious issue that they do great at dakka, terribly at melee.
There's a lot to be said for obsec troops that are tough, can put out 16+1d6 shots, and move at an average of 9.5". 142pts is quite a bit, but I think that 5 assault intercessors and an agressor is a very nice bully/obsec unit. I'm going to run two in my next few games and see how they go against different opponents.
Honestly their effectiveness is directly proportional to how much 2 damage, or D3 damage fire your opponent can put out. Lots of missile pods, dissy cannons, or battle cannons and it get super ugly real fast.
If they have to dakka you down one wound at a time, it's pretty strong.
I'm still trying to get dakka inceptors to work. s5 with the +1 wound strat and native -1 ap seems like it works well on paper.
Problem is if I attach them to primaris squads they move to slow and die too easy but if I don't they die easier...
Deepstriking really isn't an option because I've learned that allowing your opponent 2 turns to shoot you without having shot all you can at him is a losing strategy.
I thought mixed primaris squads would work but the moment that knight with the endless relic gun looked at my squads they melted or when a couple ravagers come around the corner t5 2w 3+ just isn't getting the job done...
bananathug wrote: I'm still trying to get dakka inceptors to work. s5 with the +1 wound strat and native -1 ap seems like it works well on paper.
Problem is if I attach them to primaris squads they move to slow and die too easy but if I don't they die easier...
Deepstriking really isn't an option because I've learned that allowing your opponent 2 turns to shoot you without having shot all you can at him is a losing strategy.
I thought mixed primaris squads would work but the moment that knight with the endless relic gun looked at my squads they melted or when a couple ravagers come around the corner t5 2w 3+ just isn't getting the job done...
Stop thinking you can get gak done with a single marine unit without redundancy. Saw a bunch of folks try 4 Intercessor units with auto bolters and an Aggressor in each the other day as an anvil. Not as much immediate dakka as a single 5/5 Intergressor squad, but spread out, super mobile, and most importantly - separate units. Those ravagers can manage a single 6 man squad if they have god rolls - they can't kill all four, and the three Aggressors left standing will ruin them (alongside 10 SIA bolter shots). Never underestimate the value of spreading out the mixed parts.
If it’s identical it’s spam. If it’s almost the same it’s probably spam... for example this edition Russes are Russes but some have more opportunity to be snowflake.
You call it spam, I call it one of the best baseline-troop options we have. 142pts (or 179pts to double down on a second aggressor) buys you a unit that moves fast, threatens a wide range of targets, and likes to put down roots when its done moving, ideal for obsec. They're not top tier but I think they're worth looking at in multiples.
Primark G wrote: If it’s identical it’s spam. If it’s almost the same it’s probably spam... for example this edition Russes are Russes but some have more opportunity to be snowflake.
Heaven forbid you get off to Rule Of Three. You're all about highlander I'm betting.
I´m looking for some advice here:
I wanna build a semi competitve all Marine list, with an Blood Angels Batallion as my main CQC threat (most likely 1-2 Captains + Lemartes & DC) backed up by a Batallion of shooty Marines.
While I could also make the shooting part of my army Blood Angels I feel it is quite wasted cause they don´t have any cool benefits like for example Deatwatch.
So would DW be a good choice for a shooty Marine ally? If yes which units and tactics would be recommended?
Mr.T wrote: Any thoughts about black shields?
I found them usefull especially when i can hit enemy for free
Worth it in squads with melee vets. Let's you bait people by putting your shooting out there, letting them charge and then moving your vanguard vets into combat. Plus, it's a great excuse to sneak some chaos bits onto a DW model.
I´m looking for some advice here:
I wanna build a semi competitve all Marine list, with an Blood Angels Batallion as my main CQC threat (most likely 1-2 Captains + Lemartes & DC) backed up by a Batallion of shooty Marines.
While I could also make the shooting part of my army Blood Angels I feel it is quite wasted cause they don´t have any cool benefits like for example Deatwatch.
So would DW be a good choice for a shooty Marine ally? If yes which units and tactics would be recommended?
They'd be a better choice than blood angels, but I think you'd be better off doing what other BA are doing and just adding a tons of lasccanons and mortar to the cheap IG battalion you are planning on having anyway. Orders don't' cost CP and if anyone can prevent IG from ending up in Close Combat, it's blood angels.
Mr.T wrote: Any thoughts about black shields?
I found them usefull especially when i can hit enemy for free
Worth it in squads with melee vets. Let's you bait people by putting your shooting out there, letting them charge and then moving your vanguard vets into combat. Plus, it's a great excuse to sneak some chaos bits onto a DW model.
I´m looking for some advice here:
I wanna build a semi competitve all Marine list, with an Blood Angels Batallion as my main CQC threat (most likely 1-2 Captains + Lemartes & DC) backed up by a Batallion of shooty Marines.
While I could also make the shooting part of my army Blood Angels I feel it is quite wasted cause they don´t have any cool benefits like for example Deatwatch.
So would DW be a good choice for a shooty Marine ally? If yes which units and tactics would be recommended?
They'd be a better choice than blood angels, but I think you'd be better off doing what other BA are doing and just adding a tons of lasccanons and mortar to the cheap IG battalion you are planning on having anyway. Orders don't' cost CP and if anyone can prevent IG from ending up in Close Combat, it's blood angels.
Mr.T wrote: Any thoughts about black shields?
I found them usefull especially when i can hit enemy for free
Worth it in squads with melee vets. Let's you bait people by putting your shooting out there, letting them charge and then moving your vanguard vets into combat. Plus, it's a great excuse to sneak some chaos bits onto a DW model.
I´m looking for some advice here:
I wanna build a semi competitve all Marine list, with an Blood Angels Batallion as my main CQC threat (most likely 1-2 Captains + Lemartes & DC) backed up by a Batallion of shooty Marines.
While I could also make the shooting part of my army Blood Angels I feel it is quite wasted cause they don´t have any cool benefits like for example Deatwatch.
So would DW be a good choice for a shooty Marine ally? If yes which units and tactics would be recommended?
They'd be a better choice than blood angels, but I think you'd be better off doing what other BA are doing and just adding a tons of lasccanons and mortar to the cheap IG battalion you are planning on having anyway. Orders don't' cost CP and if anyone can prevent IG from ending up in Close Combat, it's blood angels.
I´m looking for some advice here:
I wanna build a semi competitve all Marine list, with an Blood Angels Batallion as my main CQC threat (most likely 1-2 Captains + Lemartes & DC) backed up by a Batallion of shooty Marines.
While I could also make the shooting part of my army Blood Angels I feel it is quite wasted cause they don´t have any cool benefits like for example Deatwatch.
So would DW be a good choice for a shooty Marine ally? If yes which units and tactics would be recommended?
They'd be a better choice than blood angels, but I think you'd be better off doing what other BA are doing and just adding a tons of lasccanons and mortar to the cheap IG battalion you are planning on having anyway. Orders don't' cost CP and if anyone can prevent IG from ending up in Close Combat, it's blood angels.
Thanks for your feedback. I´m aware that IG would be an superior feedback. But like I said I wanna build an semi-comp ALL marine list. So maybe some thoughts with this restriction in mind?
Okay, if you want to sub in DW for shooting, I'd recommend two units in particular: the Assault Intercessors with an Aggressor (142pts) for hustling and starting on the board, and a SB Vet team with a smattering of SSs to deepstrike and dakka. 9 or 10SBs with a Watchmaster can absoltuely shred so many targets, it's pretty brutal against many lists: chaos, tau and nids all hat them as hellfire works on everything but vehicles, and those armies' heavies tend to not have that keyword.
Don't turn to DW for heavy AT fire support - BA are a good deal better. The only exception would be to take a lone FWAT unit, to take advantage of the good WM rerolls and the +1 to wound strat - a Xiphon or Leviathan or Deredeo spring to mind...
The big advantage of your plan is that it allows you to easily take two batallions to unlock 13cp, very handy for your smashcaps.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Something like this would be around 1k points. You could drop out a squad of intercessors if you didn't need board control, in favour of another unit, but I like em. You'd have to run a heavy of some sort on the BA side to match the Lev:
Librarian: Force axe, Storm Bolter (giving you access to Null zone and the rest)
Watch Master
2x Intercessors . Aggressor, Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets . Intercessor: Auto Bolt Rifle, Bolt Pistol x4 . Intercessor Sergeant: Auto Bolt Rifle, Bolt Pistol, Chainsword
What we saying for anti tank of we don't want to guard or blood angels??
Corvus looks quite tasty with Lascannon and missiles carrying some vets with meltas who can jump out and suicide pop a tank. If only Reivers had access to something more than a pistol I'd take them with meltas or power fist etc.
Bikers could be a way of getting the meltas in range ??
I don't think our Bikers still have Special Weapons.
What you REALLY want are options from FW. We get access to tanks because of them, so we don't need no Preds. Your options include FW Dreads, Lascannon Tarantula Turrets (not a great choice though) and Sicarans.
Man, what I wouldn't do for PotMS on our Corvi. It would transform that unit and give us a solid AT option in the codex, without dipping into forgeworld. As it is now, I take it all dakka with auspex, to try and counter the 4+ to hit. If the model was more mundane, it would never see table time tbh.
Rogerio134134 wrote: What we saying for anti tank of we don't want to guard or blood angels??
Corvus looks quite tasty with Lascannon and missiles carrying some vets with meltas who can jump out and suicide pop a tank. If only Reivers had access to something more than a pistol I'd take them with meltas or power fist etc.
Bikers could be a way of getting the meltas in range ??
grouchoben wrote: Man, what I wouldn't do for PotMS on our Corvi. It would transform that unit and give us a solid AT option in the codex, without dipping into forgeworld. As it is now, I take it all dakka with auspex, to try and counter the 4+ to hit. If the model was more mundane, it would never see table time tbh.
Needs more than PotMS. It's like baseline 40 points cheaper than a Stormraven, a unit with a ton of offensive options and can carry a freaking Dreadnought. PotMS is the first stop.
What it really needs to fit the special ops role of the Deathwatch is the Valk grav chute insertion rule.
I mean, it's a transport right, so part of its value is dependent on what it can transport. Marine infantry sucks, so the Stormraven being able to transport them isn't as valuable.
grouchoben wrote: Okay, if you want to sub in DW for shooting, I'd recommend two units in particular: the Assault Intercessors with an Aggressor (142pts) for hustling and starting on the board,
I'm. kind of curious, why no power sword for the Sergeant? To me one of the strengths of the squad is that it can fight competently at both range and in melee for the price.
grouchoben wrote: Okay, if you want to sub in DW for shooting, I'd recommend two units in particular: the Assault Intercessors with an Aggressor (142pts) for hustling and starting on the board,
I'm. kind of curious, why no power sword for the Sergeant? To me one of the strengths of the squad is that it can fight competently at both range and in melee for the price.
An extra attack granted by the chainsword is a sufficient melee choice here.
grouchoben wrote: Okay, if you want to sub in DW for shooting, I'd recommend two units in particular: the Assault Intercessors with an Aggressor (142pts) for hustling and starting on the board,
I'm. kind of curious, why no power sword for the Sergeant? To me one of the strengths of the squad is that it can fight competently at both range and in melee for the price.
An extra attack granted by the chainsword is a sufficient melee choice here.
For people that like math:
Against T3 5+ save enemies, the chainsword is 88% as effective as the power sword.
Against marines, 53%.
Note this is for a base 3 attack model. For a normal SM sarg with 2 attacks, the chainsword actually kills just as many guardsmen as the power-sword does. Against marines the chainsword is 60% as good as a power sword if you only have 2 attacks.
This is why you never really see power weapons on non-special characters.
Rogerio134134 wrote: What we saying for anti tank of we don't want to guard or blood angels??
Corvus looks quite tasty with Lascannon and missiles carrying some vets with meltas who can jump out and suicide pop a tank. If only Reivers had access to something more than a pistol I'd take them with meltas or power fist etc.
Bikers could be a way of getting the meltas in range ??
I think you're best off going FW for Leviathans, (Contemptor) Mortises, Sicarans, Deredeos, etc. Corvus is reasonable but really suffers from not having PotMS.
How about terminators? Watched a battle report from striking scorpion 82 where his termies deep strike with a chaplain and attack 3 predators and just absolutely wipe them out.
Thinking 5 termies with some thunder hammer storm shield and a couple normal power fist storm bolter dudes to smash into armour or whatever via deep strike. Either that or thinking of using a corvus to dump them in amongst the enemy, seems a waste though as they have the ability to teleport in.
Rogerio134134 wrote: How about terminators? Watched a battle report from striking scorpion 82 where his termies deep strike with a chaplain and attack 3 predators and just absolutely wipe them out.
Thinking 5 termies with some thunder hammer storm shield and a couple normal power fist storm bolter dudes to smash into armour or whatever via deep strike. Either that or thinking of using a corvus to dump them in amongst the enemy, seems a waste though as they have the ability to teleport in.
More often than not the story is like this:
5 TH/SS Termiantors deep strike in, try to charge but failed that 9" roll. Standing there doing nothing, then 2 Daemon Princes turned their attentions to them. Two smites, 6 Mortal Wounds on them so it is 3 guys dead. Then tge 2 Daemon Princes launched their charge and swings first. After 14 S7 2D attacks hitting on rerollable 2s. your rest 2 Terminators are wiped.
Looking to build this list, the club nearest to me runs a league which is 1750 points with a maximum of 2 detachments and no forgeworld or allied forces.
Thinking of the 2 dreads will sit deep with the barbone watch Captain and re roll hits all day, the intercessors
Will advance on foot with the tooled up watch master and pop targets. The inceptors will buzz around shooting taking objectives while the corvus mounted termies and chaplain fly off and hunt juicy targets. Thinking of deep striking the vets in to use their frag cannons and storm bolters.
Any thoughts? Tried to cram in some decent anti vehicle for with the sniper dreads and the termies also have the ability with the corvus to hunt big targets too. The captain having the relic to recover cp on a 5+ should be helpful too.Considering a land raider instead of the corvus though...
I think there's a case for DW terminators actually, but it's niche as hell. 200pts buys you 5 termis with Power Axes and (you guessed it) SIA Stormbolters.
Dropped into cover, they don't have to worry about charge distances, they just hold and dakka. You're paying a tax for coolness, but you are actually getting a decent unit - a pain to shift, great shooting and can still do something in CC.
grouchoben wrote: I think there's a case for DW terminators actually, but it's niche as hell. 200pts buys you 5 termis with Power Axes and (you guessed it) SIA Stormbolters.
Dropped into cover, they don't have to worry about charge distances, they just hold and dakka. You're paying a tax for coolness, but you are actually getting a decent unit - a pain to shift, great shooting and can still do something in CC.
Thinking of using them as a versatile unit where they could destroy armour and also take on infantry if needed.
The trick is threading the needle between not too costly to lose easily, and a threat that has to be taken seriously. TH/SS termi squad is really expensive and has no better chance of making the charge than a squad of guardsmen. I can see their value, but paying around 300pts for 5models is a bit ott.
Add to that SIA SBs and I think cheap-as-chips is the way to go. 200pts is still overcosted I think, but in the one game I ran them they did good work.
If I was going to upgrade them it would be to SB & fists, so they still have a purpose if there's no charge.
A solo knight or some armigers shouldn’t be too cp hungry. The occasional rotate ion shield, plus a relic or warlord trait
I'd agree with this. A Warden and a pair of Warglaives or an Errant and a pair of Helverins shouldn't be too CP hungry and will compliment DW quite nicely.
A solo knight or some armigers shouldn’t be too cp hungry. The occasional rotate ion shield, plus a relic or warlord trait
I'd agree with this. A Warden and a pair of Warglaives or an Errant and a pair of Helverins shouldn't be too CP hungry and will compliment DW quite nicely.
I think that depends a lot on their houses and the knights you choose. Things like Full Tilt, Glory in Honour, or Sally Forth will eat up CP well over what they contribute from their detachment. Powerful, yes - but to make that army work you need both DW and Knights eager to use their stratagems where needed.
Will need to add that Guard Batt to make it worthwhile, I think.
That's not a serious question is it? You're basically forced into Lord Of Hidden Knowledge.
I used to think there was potential for The Watch Eternal as it adds some survival to a low model count army, but I'm not terribly certain it's worth it as the radius is too low to really get some serious mileage out of it.
It is a serious question - LoHK is the no brainer but I was hoping maybe another is a sleeper. One of your problems is you insult people here immediately with no real basis to attack them.
That's not a serious question is it? You're basically forced into Lord Of Hidden Knowledge.
I used to think there was potential for The Watch Eternal as it adds some survival to a low model count army, but I'm not terribly certain it's worth it as the radius is too low to really get some serious mileage out of it.
It's sad to say, but I must absolutely agree with you 100%. The warlord choices are so meh across the board you really are limited to the command point farm option which even then is entirely worse than the guard one and mostly worse than the ultramarine one. The watch eternal one actually had me considering it until I broke it down and re-read it. It only works on the last wound so the primaris options are denied that synergy and then it's not like it is going to effect all that many models within it's range. Even if you have 10-20 guys somehow within 6 you are looking at saving 2-3 of them IF they don't get overkilled via tons of wounds or multiple damage attacks. Is that really worth a warlord trait? Not even close.
If for some reason you don't want to run the walmart brand CP farm warlord trait you could try castellan of the black vault on a watchmaster for a pretty nifty weapon. Shame he only has four attacks though,
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Primark G wrote: It is a serious question - LoHK is the no brainer but I was hoping maybe another is a sleeper. One of your problems is you insult people here immediately with no real basis to attack them.
I don't really see anything insulting in what he said.
Al Haquis wrote: Wondering if any one has had a chance to look into what kind of a killteam would be good for DW.
I expect units and equipment to be expensive point wise.
Also with special issue ammo, do you think shotguns have a place or should be go all in on bolters?
If any one has an example of a 100 point team that would be great.
I had a chance to briefly look at the killteam rulebook at my FLGS and as I recall the bolt weapons (including pistols) were 2 points. I don't remember what those weapons are stock for codex versions of primaris. I think intercessors and reivers were 16 points so 20 with their ammo. Gunners and sergeants were 17 I think. They might have been 18. I think the knife options for reiver's was 0 so you could get a 5 man primaris team with 3 intercessors and 2 reivers. Normal veterans were 13 or 14 points I believe.
That's not a serious question is it? You're basically forced into Lord Of Hidden Knowledge.
I used to think there was potential for The Watch Eternal as it adds some survival to a low model count army, but I'm not terribly certain it's worth it as the radius is too low to really get some serious mileage out of it.
It's sad to say, but I must absolutely agree with you 100%. The warlord choices are so meh across the board you really are limited to the command point farm option which even then is entirely worse than the guard one and mostly worse than the ultramarine one. The watch eternal one actually had me considering it until I broke it down and re-read it. It only works on the last wound so the primaris options are denied that synergy and then it's not like it is going to effect all that many models within it's range. Even if you have 10-20 guys somehow within 6 you are looking at saving 2-3 of them IF they don't get overkilled via tons of wounds or multiple damage attacks. Is that really worth a warlord trait? Not even close.
If for some reason you don't want to run the walmart brand CP farm warlord trait you could try castellan of the black vault on a watchmaster for a pretty nifty weapon. Shame he only has four attacks though,
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Primark G wrote: It is a serious question - LoHK is the no brainer but I was hoping maybe another is a sleeper. One of your problems is you insult people here immediately with no real basis to attack them.
I don't really see anything insulting in what he said.
Were The Watch Eternal a range of 9" I might consider it.
Nice thing about Black Vault is the Helfire shot from the Watch Master. That's gonna kill any 3 wound model in one shot. That's pretty rad if he weren't stuck with Rapid Fire 1, but I suppose I'm almost complaining to complain about that
That's not a serious question is it? You're basically forced into Lord Of Hidden Knowledge.
I used to think there was potential for The Watch Eternal as it adds some survival to a low model count army, but I'm not terribly certain it's worth it as the radius is too low to really get some serious mileage out of it.
It's sad to say, but I must absolutely agree with you 100%. The warlord choices are so meh across the board you really are limited to the command point farm option which even then is entirely worse than the guard one and mostly worse than the ultramarine one. The watch eternal one actually had me considering it until I broke it down and re-read it. It only works on the last wound so the primaris options are denied that synergy and then it's not like it is going to effect all that many models within it's range. Even if you have 10-20 guys somehow within 6 you are looking at saving 2-3 of them IF they don't get overkilled via tons of wounds or multiple damage attacks. Is that really worth a warlord trait? Not even close.
If for some reason you don't want to run the walmart brand CP farm warlord trait you could try castellan of the black vault on a watchmaster for a pretty nifty weapon. Shame he only has four attacks though,
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Primark G wrote: It is a serious question - LoHK is the no brainer but I was hoping maybe another is a sleeper. One of your problems is you insult people here immediately with no real basis to attack them.
I don't really see anything insulting in what he said.
Were The Watch Eternal a range of 9" I might consider it.
Nice thing about Black Vault is the Helfire shot from the Watch Master. That's gonna kill any 3 wound model in one shot. That's pretty rad if he weren't stuck with Rapid Fire 1, but I suppose I'm almost complaining to complain about that
9 inches and per wound and I'd run it with primaris, termies and bikers, but probably not veterans.
Yeah it makes the master a bit more killy, but is that worth a warlord trait? Personally I'd say no.
Anyone run dreads for the backfield?? I was going to run 2 venerable dreads with Lascannon and missiles in the back with a barebones captain for rerolls for anti tank buy an seriously considering having 3 of them basically never missing with 6 lascannon and 3 missile launchers.
DW has the problem, that their infantry is already pretty expensive. One way to mitigate this is to not offer the enemie's AT weapons useful targets because the DW infantry can already deal with anything and you can therefor waste the points of your opponent spend on lascanons by having him shoot at marines with them.
Dreads with BS2+ are just the biggest shoot-me sign you could possibly place on the board.
In a meta where you need AT but your opponents don't have much of it against you it would be a good choice though. Until it becomes clear how prevalent knights end up being I'd stay away from anything big.
Yeah I suppose you are right about the being shot thing but they could be very valuable for claiming objectives at the rear and drawing attention away from my valuable glass hammer veterans and terminators etc
I thought I'd share a recent success in my DW lists. It's not particularly innovative and pretty boring, but my emprah they've been effective:
Hellblaster squads. Not Fortis, just straight up hellblasters. The helltercessor team is a trap I think: 270pts is way too much, and I was getting pretty dissappointed with their impact. 70 more points doubles your plaz, after all. I've been running the following spearhead detachment in place of my Gallant/Helverin/Helverin, and I think I prefer it:
Watch Captain with jumppack and TH Hellblasters x5 Hellblasters x5 Leviathan dread with 2xSCAs and 3xHKMs
Hellblasters DSing with reroll 1s to wound is such a different prospect to their standard incarnation. The two biggest differences are: 1) alpha immunity. Everyone know that Blasters should be your opponent's no.1 priority for what to do with their anti-infantry weapons. Starting othem off the board means you're guaranteed to get a full round shooting with each squad at rapid fire range, and very often more, as you can judiciously respond to your opponent's deployment and use cover to deny shots. 2) far fewer -1s to hit, as they can drop in within 12" to deny its most common form. It makes them viable again against their strongest weakness: overheat on 1s and 2s.
So yeah, it's not a mind-expanding suggestion I know but take a squad or two out for a spin. 170pts for 5 deepstriking hellblasters with baked-in LT reroll is a gooood price point in my book.
(Whereas, as long as you give it 'reroll 1s', a DW 5-man hellblaster squad with the appropriate mission tactics does 9 damage to a Russ – or deletes a Pred – dropping untouched out of DS.)
Primark G wrote: Yeah I know - I use it for the stormbolter... the rules even says it must use SIA... geez. /rollseyes
More the point I'm saying you aren't getting a lot from the two combined.
A Watch Captain with a 4 damage thunder hammer and a 2 damage storm bolter is pretty killy at any range.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
combatcotton wrote: Even object camping I think vets with stalker rifles do a better job of.
Sadly that squad isn't as dangerous to tanks nor is it very durable.
It isn't worth taking a Warlord trait though.
Also Vets with Stalkers are fine if they're in cover. Outside cover there wouldn't be a lot of point though, but they're basically the perfect thing to Combat Squad (hey the rule finally does something now!)
×5 Vets with Stalker Bolters
×4 Bikers w/ whatever
×1 Vanguard with whatever
Combat the Vets from everyone else and BAM you're good.
grouchoben wrote: I thought I'd share a recent success in my DW lists. It's not particularly innovative and pretty boring, but my emprah they've been effective:
Hellblaster squads. Not Fortis, just straight up hellblasters. The helltercessor team is a trap I think: 270pts is way too much, and I was getting pretty dissappointed with their impact. 70 more points doubles your plaz, after all. I've been running the following spearhead detachment in place of my Gallant/Helverin/Helverin, and I think I prefer it:
Watch Captain with jumppack and TH Hellblasters x5
Hellblasters x5
Leviathan dread with 2xSCAs and 3xHKMs
Hellblasters DSing with reroll 1s to wound is such a different prospect to their standard incarnation. The two biggest differences are: 1) alpha immunity. Everyone know that Blasters should be your opponent's no.1 priority for what to do with their anti-infantry weapons. Starting othem off the board means you're guaranteed to get a full round shooting with each squad at rapid fire range, and very often more, as you can judiciously respond to your opponent's deployment and use cover to deny shots. 2) far fewer -1s to hit, as they can drop in within 12" to deny its most common form. It makes them viable again against their strongest weakness: overheat on 1s and 2s.
So yeah, it's not a mind-expanding suggestion I know but take a squad or two out for a spin. 170pts for 5 deepstriking hellblasters with baked-in LT reroll is a gooood price point in my book.
I always praised mixed squads for primaris because it protected hellblasters. Instead of running blobs of hellblasters I could now split them up into units of intercessors which themselves are pretty darn solid now. I never even thought of having just hellblasters deepstrike. Assuming you can get them in range of a re-roll machine they could be pretty darn solid. I like your idea and plan to try it at some point. Thanks for sharing!
Need to make a choice tomorrow between buying terminators or more veterans... Taking my box of Reivers back to the shop as I have realised they are not a very good choice haha.
My thought for Primaris was to give them the same rule abberants have where they reduce damage they take by one to a minimum of one. This would have to come with a price increase however.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: My thought for Primaris was to give them the same rule abberants have where they reduce damage they take by one to a minimum of one. This would have to come with a price increase however.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: My thought for Primaris was to give them the same rule abberants have where they reduce damage they take by one to a minimum of one. This would have to come with a price increase however.
Why? They're really bad now.
Well I mean reducing damage they take by one is pretty huge. They're pretty darn durable and if you make them take one less damage per hit D2 is going to take twice as much firepower to kill them and even D3 damage will only have a 33% chance.
Imagine a deathwatch intercessor with that rule for 20 points. That's a scary good unit.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: My thought for Primaris was to give them the same rule abberants have where they reduce damage they take by one to a minimum of one. This would have to come with a price increase however.
Why? They're really bad now.
Well I mean reducing damage they take by one is pretty huge. They're pretty darn durable and if you make them take one less damage per hit D2 is going to take twice as much firepower to kill them and even D3 damage will only have a 33% chance.
Imagine a deathwatch intercessor with that rule for 20 points. That's a scary good unit.
And only Xenos get those, right? Maybe 22 pts or 23 tops.
What do people think about bikers - seem pretty nice for me.
I was thinking about having 2 min squads with meltas, for objective grabbing and harassment. Or I could have a 5 bike squad with decent axes... thoughts?
Then hellblasters, I was going to do a kill team with 4 of them plus an inceptor to prevent them being shut down from cc. But now I'm thinking may e just getting 10 is a better way to go... thoughts?
mrtomski wrote: Hey guys, still buying models.. last few choices.
What do people think about bikers - seem pretty nice for me.
I was thinking about having 2 min squads with meltas, for objective grabbing and harassment. Or I could have a 5 bike squad with decent axes... thoughts?
Then hellblasters, I was going to do a kill team with 4 of them plus an inceptor to prevent them being shut down from cc. But now I'm thinking may e just getting 10 is a better way to go... thoughts?
I would only use Bikers if they're broke off from a regular Killteam and have a Vanguard with them.
I tried a Combat Squad of 5 Vets with Stalker Bolters and 4 Bikers with Axes + a Chainsword/SS Vanguard. Not terribly competitive but it can make a dent at least.
Got a question for people - I've been using the 300pt Fortis kill teams with aggressors/inceptors for my Deepstrike Hammer (versus my long range vet/intercessors/hellblaster 'anvils' that start on the board), but I'm finding they often don't make their points back. Sometimes the inceptors blow something up but the aggressors do nothing or vice versa. I've been looking at various other options like dropping venerable dreadnoughts or those sweet looking 3biker/2 vanguard vet melee teams to replace them but am uncertain what would work best.
What are you using for your close range/deep strike elements?
Personally I like to avoid big kill teams. I find they are too rewarding to shoot and vulnerable to morale. It's also easier to shut down one big unit then it is two medium sized units. Personally I like to keep my kill teams no larger than seven with the standard composition being 5 intercs and 2 hellblasters though I'll occasionally replace a hellblaster for an aggressor here and there, but still always one hellblaster minimum.
I'd personally avoid all melee in the army outside of ally forces or specific smash captains. Nothing we have is going to be efficient in melee so I'd just avoid it and rely on very reliable and efficient shooting options. The closest to melee I want to come is overwatching with a frag cannon.
Just bought the start collecting set to finish off my force and am not sure how to equip my second veteran squad so far the army is...
1750
Chapter master, lord of hidden knowledge.
Watch Captain with power sword.
Intercessors x 5
Hellblasters X 2
Intercessors x 5
Hellblasters X 2
Veterans X 6
Sergeant SB and power maul
3 veterans with sb and chain sword
Inceptors X 3
Corvus
Vanguard detachment
Libby
Primaris apothecary
Venerable dread, lascannon and ML X 2
Still have space for another kill team points wise and not sure what to do with them, might change my first unit to be 4 X frag cannon squad and then have a 6 man kill team with storm bolter vets a heavy thunder hammer and a storm shield or two jumping out of the corvus?
Also think I will drop the inceptors as I do have the models but they don't get SIA, possibly drop another kill team into the list in their place as they do seem a waste.
Also think I will drop the inceptors as I do have the models but they don't get SIA, possibly drop another kill team into the list in their place as they do seem a waste.
Rather then drop them, you might want to attach them to kill teams so you can fall back and shoot.
Your list looks a bit light on AV, so some frag cannons might work nicely.
Also think I will drop the inceptors as I do have the models but they don't get SIA, possibly drop another kill team into the list in their place as they do seem a waste.
Rather then drop them, you might want to attach them to kill teams so you can fall back and shoot.
Your list looks a bit light on AV, so some frag cannons might work nicely.
Nice, yeah I'm thinking of using the other veteran unit with a heavy thunder hammer or two to drop in with the other vets and they can tackle tough targets together.
All deathwatch infantry/bikes including primaris should be buffed by a wound - veterens should be more durable, and primaris veterens should be more so, all infantry/bikes should then have a plus 1 attack which brings back the old true grit sort of rule.
Lastly I'd like them to have a danger close rule where they can deep strike up to 7 inches away and all infantry can disembark from a transport after it has moved but can only do so if those infantry units are at least 7 inches away from the enemy (like a deep strike of sorts). A 1CP option to negate interceptor/auspex scan as well to show they are adept at this sort of stuff.
No point increases either. When you look at other armies, it is not a lot, when you look at other marine armies it obviously is but that shouldn't be the factor which holds them back from gaining these.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: All deathwatch infantry/bikes including primaris should be buffed by a wound - veterens should be more durable, and primaris veterens should be more so, all infantry/bikes should then have a plus 1 attack which brings back the old true grit sort of rule.
Lastly I'd like them to have a danger close rule where they can deep strike up to 7 inches away and all infantry can disembark from a transport after it has moved but can only do so if those infantry units are at least 7 inches away from the enemy (like a deep strike of sorts). A 1CP option to negate interceptor/auspex scan as well to show they are adept at this sort of stuff.
No point increases either. When you look at other armies, it is not a lot, when you look at other marine armies it obviously is but that shouldn't be the factor which holds them back from gaining these.
So you take 5 intercessors with aggressors and maybe an inceptor you are looking at a 30+ wound t5 unit absolutely crazy
Figured since I am gonna try and post over here again I should share it and get peoples thoughts!
If this is against the rules let me know and I will either make a separate thread or copy the images over.
As to my primaris unit,
I have been running 5 intercessors, 4 aggressors, and 1 inceptor and it is an all star, if I had the deep strike slot I would run two of these beauties. I killed 15 plague bearers on overwatch and then another 8 in combat. It was glorious.
However I plan on attending NOVA and one of the biggest concerns I have is how to deal with Castellans. I know the Tempest will be D3, I can work in a heavy bolter for another D3 per turn. But that takes a long time to get to 28 lol.
Figured since I am gonna try and post over here again I should share it and get peoples thoughts!
If this is against the rules let me know and I will either make a separate thread or copy the images over.
As to my primaris unit,
I have been running 5 intercessors, 4 aggressors, and 1 inceptor and it is an all star, if I had the deep strike slot I would run two of these beauties. I killed 15 plague bearers on overwatch and then another 8 in combat. It was glorious.
However I plan on attending NOVA and one of the biggest concerns I have is how to deal with Castellans. I know the Tempest will be D3, I can work in a heavy bolter for another D3 per turn. But that takes a long time to get to 28 lol.
Figured since I am gonna try and post over here again I should share it and get peoples thoughts!
If this is against the rules let me know and I will either make a separate thread or copy the images over.
As to my primaris unit,
I have been running 5 intercessors, 4 aggressors, and 1 inceptor and it is an all star, if I had the deep strike slot I would run two of these beauties. I killed 15 plague bearers on overwatch and then another 8 in combat. It was glorious.
However I plan on attending NOVA and one of the biggest concerns I have is how to deal with Castellans. I know the Tempest will be D3, I can work in a heavy bolter for another D3 per turn. But that takes a long time to get to 28 lol.
VERY nice layout. Really does show how great Krak is just because of that sweet range advantage.
Figured since I am gonna try and post over here again I should share it and get peoples thoughts!
If this is against the rules let me know and I will either make a separate thread or copy the images over.
As to my primaris unit,
I have been running 5 intercessors, 4 aggressors, and 1 inceptor and it is an all star, if I had the deep strike slot I would run two of these beauties. I killed 15 plague bearers on overwatch and then another 8 in combat. It was glorious.
However I plan on attending NOVA and one of the biggest concerns I have is how to deal with Castellans. I know the Tempest will be D3, I can work in a heavy bolter for another D3 per turn. But that takes a long time to get to 28 lol.
Leth.. great post btw. I was looking at a break down of the units i run in DW. i run 3 Vet squads kitted out the same. 9 dudes in each unit. 1 termie, 1 Vanguard vet and 7 vets with stormbolters and 3 storm shields. what is your take on the unit as an example ?
I won a local 14-man tournament with my DW yesterday, thought I'd post my list. I'm not inferring from this that DW are amazeballs or anything, but I was very happy with their performance alongside an IK core.
I came up against Wraith/Dev-heavy Necrons, alpha legion/abbadon cultist spam with bloodbombs, and a World Eater list. Ended the day with 5740pts out of 6000pts killed!
DW Battalion:
2 jumpy smashy caps
2 assault intercessor squads, each with an aggressor
1 5-man killteam with SBs & SSs 1 DS'ing Hellblaster team
1 Xiphon
1 Corvus with auspex and dakka
Knight (Taranis) SHD:
1 Gallant
2 Helverins
- Ran one cap with Aegis Dominatus to give my flyers a 5++ if I lost initiative. Meh.
- The uber-dakka was well suited to my opponents' lists. I love our troop choices.
- My Xiphon did real work; the thing didn't die all day, and killed both Kharn & Abbadon on fly-bys. 50" move allows you to negate all but the longest-range AT, whilst closing quickly to decapitate characters. The Gallant was the bullet magnet.
- Corvus dictated attention and dropped its squad and cap where needed with the beacon for re-positioning and capping.
- my two Aggressors were amazing, advancing on turn 1 and rarely moving after that.
- The little Hellblaster team was my clutch, brought down when I needed something hurt, and I tried to save 2cps to doctrine them too.
- the two Helverins were a bit pedestrian but slowly contributed damage I suppose. They had an off-day.
Leth.. great post btw. I was looking at a break down of the units i run in DW. i run 3 Vet squads kitted out the same. 9 dudes in each unit. 1 termie, 1 Vanguard vet and 7 vets with stormbolters and 3 storm shields. what is your take on the unit as an example ?
Thank you very much!! I used it as excel practice, as well as ways to try and show the impact of things with stats, rather than just with raw numbers. Its easy to say that -1 is significant, but its much more impactful to see how it manifests in outcomes.
I like it. However the most important question for any kill team should be: Is this one of the three units I am teleporting in.
After that it is
Which target is this unit designed to KILL(not wound, KILL)
Much of the responses I would give depend on the rest of your army. The kill team should slot into a primary role that is needed, rather than each unit being focused on doing multiple things.
For example:
My two troop choices are not going to be teleporting in(all three are used) and they need to fill a battalion out for a minimal number of points. Have anti-horde pretty covered with my primaris kill team, but could use more fire power to try and pick off smaller units. I dont have a good way to make sure that a knight dies in one turn(will have maybe 2-3 wounds left on average) So I opted to go with veterans instead of intercessors, as well as equipped them with the following:
5x veterans, 4x Storm Bolter, 1x SS, 1x Hvy Bolter. I take the Hvy bolter - 111 points.
Both of them will share one Rhino at the start of the game(for Durability).
The heavy bolter is there so that I can use the hellfire strategem to knock off 1-3 wounds per turn. Combined with the tempest round(from a watch master, so you know its gonna hit) I can plink off 2-6 wounds per turn. That is enough to make it a significant dent without dedicating a lot of wasted firepower. With CP regen it is feasible.
For my Primaris unit the logic goes as follows:
I know that they will be teleporting in most games, but if possible(or against certain types of opponents such as one who is light on shooting) they will start on the board, and then just advance.
My Primaris unit is focused on putting out a gak ton of bullets/anti-horde shots.
Because this unit is going to be getting relatively close it is important that they have the ability to fall back and still be able to fire.
I gave them the assault boltgun on the intercessors(so they can still fire while advancing). Further, since I know they are going to be deep striking in, and I want to stay further away(with the aggressors the farthest forward) I want to be able to place them, without having to get within 15 inches(WAY easier assault distance which makes it easier to wrap the unit). Having to be within 15 for the intercessors to fire is a significant loss.
However if I need those 5 points to make the list work? It is one of the first things to go.
Finally, I am sure the leviathan has been talked to death, but I think we need to talk about how crazy good hunter killer missles are for the DW, especially since we are light on anti-tank weapons.
Question from the group what's the least amount of models I need to buy to create a venurable dreadnaught with lascannon and missile launcher? I need to buy the deathwatch dreadnaught and a regular dread to get the middle launcher?
ballzonya wrote: Question from the group what's the least amount of models I need to buy to create a venurable dreadnaught with lascannon and missile launcher? I need to buy the deathwatch dreadnaught and a regular dread to get the middle launcher?
I would buy a regular dread and then put bits on it/ask for other bits that will make it look venerable.
Or I would buy a Venerable, and then bits order/convert a missile launcher.
ballzonya wrote: Question from the group what's the least amount of models I need to buy to create a venurable dreadnaught with lascannon and missile launcher? I need to buy the deathwatch dreadnaught and a regular dread to get the middle launcher?
The basic dread kit comes with the TLLC/ML arms. He’s not as blinged out as the ven dread, but if you roll him around your bits box he could probably fake it.
I had 2 X Valkyrie gunship rocket pods left over in my bits box from years ago, so used them on the shoulders of my venerable dreads CCW arm in a sort of mech style. It' Actium looks quite cool and believable, and that way I can count it as either arm as long as I make it clear to my opponent.
Gratz on the Xiphon! Remember it's fragile, and you'll need to manage range as well as possible. It alos likes to not be the only big threat on the board.
As for Hellblasters, well, they are so flexible! 170pts gives you a DS squad that can massacre elites, damage shield captains, land inside 12" to negate -1 shenanigans, headhunt characters, or pile on AT pressure. I don't know why I'd ever run a DW list without at least one Hellblaster MSU in it.
grouchoben wrote: Gratz on the Xiphon! Remember it's fragile, and you'll need to manage range as well as possible. It alos likes to not be the only big threat on the board.
As for Hellblasters, well, they are so flexible! 170pts gives you a DS squad that can massacre elites, damage shield captains, land inside 12" to negate -1 shenanigans, headhunt characters, or pile on AT pressure. I don't know why I'd ever run a DW list without at least one Hellblaster MSU in it.
You make a strong case there. And is a MSU the way to go with them rather than mix in with kill teams, Or even balls out 10 of them to let the opponent live in fear? I do like limiting the investment to 170 points.
I started with them in fortis teams, and was unimpressed tbh. You're talking 270pts, when 340 doubles the amount of plasma you get, and you were buying them for that sweet plasma profile right? I also have low drops, so I can afford to drop 2 MSUs of Hellblasters in DS, probably alongside a dread for a spearhead, in my lists.
Hellblasters made a big splash in early 8th until people worked out that you just have to alpha them, outside of range, or at least out of rapid fire. But DWHBs reinvigorate them in a big way because they can't ve alpha'd and they always get to shoot in rapid fire... DS and native reroll 1s to wound is a huge improvement on the unit, and DS really suits their weapon (RF 30") as it means bubble wrap has to be deep as hell to prevent them taking something out, they can avoid auspex array, they can normally drop into cover no problem. I for one think they are top tier now, but somehow haven't really caught on yet.
I have a unit of 10 that I DS along with a 10 man unit of Vets carrying Stormbolters and a reroll character (Captain or Master depending on the matchup). Only one game in against Crons so far, but they impressed me. The Hellblasters dropped a monolith on the DS, and the Vets put out 36 wounds that had to be saved against a C'tan that my Aggressors cleared the screen away from. Taking two units of 5 wouldn't net me anything that I can't do by combat-squads so I just take them that way and enjoy the flexibility of deployment.
I still think plasma inceptors are a better unit than the hellblasters. More shots, native deepstrike and fly. Both units strike me as glass cannons so if they are going to get shot off the board after they land might as well do as much damage as possible...
Both are pretty good I agree, I have 6 Inceptors too.
Only a 14 point difference between 6 Inceptors or 10 Hellblasters. Hellblasters get 20 shots with the Inceptors getting 12-36 with an average of 24. Shot quality is similar with Hellblasters having Ap-4 vs Inceptors Ap-3; which is usually not a big deal. Now, one major difference is in durability. Hellblasters have 20 T4 wounds vs 12 T5 wounds. Hellblasters take a CP to DS. For me, the big thing that makes me choose the Hellblasters is the reliability and durability for a little cheaper vs the chance for more damage. Both of them I support with rerolls.
All in all, I am trying to fit more anti-tank into my army, especially since my local meta has 2 IK players and a bunch of Guard. So I am playing with putting all 15 of my Hellblasters into Intercessor squads to give me anti-tank turn 1, and then DSing plasma inceptors for even more. I am loving everything about DW right now.
bananathug wrote: I still think plasma inceptors are a better unit than the hellblasters. More shots, native deepstrike and fly. Both units strike me as glass cannons so if they are going to get shot off the board after they land might as well do as much damage as possible...
I thought the same, but the utility of a 5 hellblaster kill team versus the 3-6 man inceptor kill teams is pretty far apart. The inceptors DS for free and have a higher range of fire, but rarely get a second shot off. The Fortis kill team can stay for a couple turns, bleeding away 2W intercessors to stay functional, can DS for 1 CP and have the range to midrange and even some backfield shooters. I dropped all my inceptors for 2 of these kill teams and haven't looked back since.
The inceptors are decent and they are very, very good in DA lists. But the DW Fortis kill team with hellblasters is just so much better point for point.
Absolutely agree with the consensus here: In DW, Hellblasters beat out inceptors. Damage output is basically the same, point for point, but inceptors a) get hot so easily, due to the number of shots per model and b) fold to a light breeze. Body count is king when it comes to mitigating damage, and hellblasters win in that department very easily.
bananathug wrote: I still think plasma inceptors are a better unit than the hellblasters. More shots, native deepstrike and fly. Both units strike me as glass cannons so if they are going to get shot off the board after they land might as well do as much damage as possible...
I thought the same, but the utility of a 5 hellblaster kill team versus the 3-6 man inceptor kill teams is pretty far apart. The inceptors DS for free and have a higher range of fire, but rarely get a second shot off. The Fortis kill team can stay for a couple turns, bleeding away 2W intercessors to stay functional, can DS for 1 CP and have the range to midrange and even some backfield shooters. I dropped all my inceptors for 2 of these kill teams and haven't looked back since.
The inceptors are decent and they are very, very good in DA lists. But the DW Fortis kill team with hellblasters is just so much better point for point.
If you're going to DS them in a Kill Team, it seems well worth it to upgrade one Hellblaster to an Inceptor in my experience.
bananathug wrote: I still think plasma inceptors are a better unit than the hellblasters. More shots, native deepstrike and fly. Both units strike me as glass cannons so if they are going to get shot off the board after they land might as well do as much damage as possible...
I thought the same, but the utility of a 5 hellblaster kill team versus the 3-6 man inceptor kill teams is pretty far apart. The inceptors DS for free and have a higher range of fire, but rarely get a second shot off. The Fortis kill team can stay for a couple turns, bleeding away 2W intercessors to stay functional, can DS for 1 CP and have the range to midrange and even some backfield shooters. I dropped all my inceptors for 2 of these kill teams and haven't looked back since.
The inceptors are decent and they are very, very good in DA lists. But the DW Fortis kill team with hellblasters is just so much better point for point.
If you're going to DS them in a Kill Team, it seems well worth it to upgrade one Hellblaster to an Inceptor in my experience.
Gotta second this. Even if you don't upgrade them to have plasma they would still have some decent dakka and provide the CRUCIAL ability to not get tied up in combat.
Yes if we are talking in a Kill Team and Deep Striking them I typically will go 5 Bolt rifles, 4 Plasma Incinerators, and 1 Plasma Inceptor. I use up my Deep Strike on better Alpha Strike units generally though. 10 Hellblasters, 10 Vets, Leviathan, etc.
Got some games coming up in a couple of weeks, my first with dw.
I'm going to be up against a good player who is fielding space wolves. He's heavy on wolfen and like wolves with thunder hammers.
Since he's rocking storm shields and 5+++ I'm wondering what's going to work well against them. I'm thinking just weight of sia bolter fire is my best bet - any tips from anyone?
If they're playing nothing but Invul saves and volume of fire is your only real friend, nothing pumps it out like Aggressors. Keep them near a Watch Master and pop the +1 Wnd strategem and you'll get the job done.
Also Hellfire shells on anything you can't hurt their save. Especially Wulfen and Thunderwolf Cavalry. Aggressors in Intercessor squads will put the fear of the Watch in him.
If I go with a hellblaster squad and I'm not trying to fill a spearhead, then 10 hellblasters is the optimum choice. I take the beacon just for this unit: drop and fry something with 20 plasma with +1 to wound, then redeploy if needed (eg out of CC, into rapid fire of next target, etc.). Inceptors are okay. I'd just rather have 2 hellblasters.
Venerable Dreadnought
* Twin lascannon, CCW w. Storm Bolter
* All the toops get combat squadded into units of 3x Intercessor 2x hellblaster. I feel that this gives a lot of dispersed firepower behind a decent number of ablative wounds, and plenty of flexibility for going after the mission.
* Chaplain dread goes into Teleportarium
* Ven dreads for ranged AT. The CCW on one of them is for variety & counter-assault.
Venerable Dreadnought
* Twin lascannon, CCW w. Storm Bolter
* All the toops get combat squadded into units of 3x Intercessor 2x hellblaster. I feel that this gives a lot of dispersed firepower behind a decent number of ablative wounds, and plenty of flexibility for going after the mission.
* Chaplain dread goes into Teleportarium
* Ven dreads for ranged AT. The CCW on one of them is for variety & counter-assault.
Whaddayareckon?
I wouldn't bother combat squadding. The intercessors perform better when you have all five in a single squad to soak up incoming fire.
Ven Dreads are good, but I think you'll have trouble finding targets for the third dread. Maybe swap him for a contemptor with a melee loadout? Then you'd have two dreadnoughts int eh back and two carving up things in the front line.
Venerable Dreadnought
* Twin lascannon, CCW w. Storm Bolter
* All the toops get combat squadded into units of 3x Intercessor 2x hellblaster. I feel that this gives a lot of dispersed firepower behind a decent number of ablative wounds, and plenty of flexibility for going after the mission.
* Chaplain dread goes into Teleportarium
* Ven dreads for ranged AT. The CCW on one of them is for variety & counter-assault.
Whaddayareckon?
I wouldn't bother combat squadding. The intercessors perform better when you have all five in a single squad to soak up incoming fire.
Ven Dreads are good, but I think you'll have trouble finding targets for the third dread. Maybe swap him for a contemptor with a melee loadout? Then you'd have two dreadnoughts int eh back and two carving up things in the front line.
Lotta knights out there..
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Plus when you have all the Hellblasters in one squad you get better use of the wounding Strategems.
That is true.. I suppose I've got the flexibility depending on the game set-up to decide on a case by case basis, but I think I'd want at least a few 5-man squads for objective camping.
LunarSol wrote:If you're going to take 3 HQ and 3 elites you might as well split off into another detachment to get another CP.
I played a 2k game with about 1000pts of Deathwatch. I had
2 Deathwatch smash captains
3 squads of 7 vets plus a bike, a terminator and a vanguard vet. I had 3 storm shields, 8 storm bolters, twin linked bolter, as many chainswords as I could take. This gave the squad a 3++ if needed (had to fail 3 of them before it went away. I had a 2+ if the gun had no ap or when I was in cover against ap -1.
This squad was very survivable. I lost 9/10 from one unit and then 2/10 from the other two units over the course of the entire game.
I took blood angel smash captains and ad mech Dunecrawlers to deal with armor and round out the list. I suppose the ad mech detachment could turn into 3 twin lascannon Razorbacks and a Watch Master if you wanted a more pure army. The BA smash captains are kind of irreplaceable to deal with Castellans in the enemy backfield.
Adeptus Doritos wrote: Diving in late, so if it's been answered- just throw the copy/paste or quote at me...
But has anyone tried using an All-Primaris force of Deathwatch? Around 1500 points?
If so, what were your key take-aways from that, and what would you recommend?
I have done a few 1500 games with my deathwatch. I ran pure Primaris other than characters. My entire army was three characters and 6 or 7 killteams of 5 inters, 2 hellblasters and like two teams with 5 inters, 1 aggresor, 1 hellblaster. It worked pretty darn well and won all my games, but none of them were competitive games against guard or dark eldar for example. They were games against other marines and Nids. I had a lot of wounds on the board all of which possessed very solid shooting power backed up by decent melee HQs. What really shown through was the raw durability of the army when not against D2 weapons. Like personally I'd auto-lose to Dark Eldar and Imperial Guard, but against other mid tier set ups it was a fun and effective way to go. Oh and actually beating something in melee (other marines) was a great time.
I have done a few 1500 games with my deathwatch. I ran pure Primaris other than characters. My entire army was three characters and 6 or 7 killteams of 5 inters, 2 hellblasters and like two teams with 5 inters, 1 aggresor, 1 hellblaster. It worked pretty darn well and won all my games, but none of them were competitive games against guard or dark eldar for example. They were games against other marines and Nids. I had a lot of wounds on the board all of which possessed very solid shooting power backed up by decent melee HQs. What really shown through was the raw durability of the army when not against D2 weapons. Like personally I'd auto-lose to Dark Eldar and Imperial Guard, but against other mid tier set ups it was a fun and effective way to go. Oh and actually beating something in melee (other marines) was a great time.
Cool, mind if I kick you a list in PM's in a bit, and you can let me know what you think of it? Don't wanna clutter up the forum.
I have done a few 1500 games with my deathwatch. I ran pure Primaris other than characters. My entire army was three characters and 6 or 7 killteams of 5 inters, 2 hellblasters and like two teams with 5 inters, 1 aggresor, 1 hellblaster. It worked pretty darn well and won all my games, but none of them were competitive games against guard or dark eldar for example. They were games against other marines and Nids. I had a lot of wounds on the board all of which possessed very solid shooting power backed up by decent melee HQs. What really shown through was the raw durability of the army when not against D2 weapons. Like personally I'd auto-lose to Dark Eldar and Imperial Guard, but against other mid tier set ups it was a fun and effective way to go. Oh and actually beating something in melee (other marines) was a great time.
Cool, mind if I kick you a list in PM's in a bit, and you can let me know what you think of it? Don't wanna clutter up the forum.
Sure I'd be happy to give an opinion, but I am no tournament winning god. I think it would be fine to post your list here because that is kinda what the topic is for.
Has anyone noticed that deathwatch terminators are 31 points base, but BA and SM post CA 2017 are 26 points? I couldn't give a change in the errata, or an I missing something obvious?
cougarmech wrote: Has anyone noticed that deathwatch terminators are 31 points base, but BA and SM post CA 2017 are 26 points? I couldn't give a change in the errata, or an I missing something obvious?
It's likely because they have better weapon options and the unflinching special rule. Not worth the difference, I'm, though.
Thinking of running a 10 man vet squad in a corvus for my force, 10 dudes 2 frag cannons everyone else with storm bolter and chain sword with 3 storm shields. Either that or split them into 2 X 5 man teams with 1 cannon each?
Yep, that's a great profile for a kill team, Rogerio. I'm also partial to all with SBs, and one SS, for a relatively cheap squad that can just hose infantry. Two of those with a watchmaster & the right mission can expect to kill 28 boyz or cultists within 12". It's legit.
My more fun list uses three 10 Man Killteans. One Terminator with the Storm Bolter and Power Sword, 5 Vets with Storm Bolters, 3 Frag Cannon dudes, and lastly a Chainsword/SS Vanguard dude.
They die like flies without cover but the amount of mayhem they cause is pretty cool. I'm hoping Space Wolves will provide us with some tools.
I dropped a 10 man unit with all SB's and did 37 or 39, I don't remember, wounds to an Ascendant C'tan with Hellfire Shells and a Watch Master. Never leaving home without it again.
Also in regards to a 1500 pt Primaris Force most of my Deathwatch are Primaris. At 2k I run 10 vets, Watch Master, and Jump Pack Librarian and everything else is Primaris. The biggest take away is that Vehicles mess with you hard. Everything else is manageable but you need 20-30 Hellblasters at 2k to be able to hold your own against vehicles or else ally in. I am considering a Dark Angel Spearhead for some Devastator Squads, although if you wanted to be purist you could get away with Vet Squads and Missile Launchers/Frag Cannons with Stalker Pattern Bolters. That won't do against any vehicle spam list though. Going FW and adding in various Dreads and tanks can do it as well if you are so inclined but AT firepower is the biggest weakness I see with the army as a whole, even more so Primaris only.
What are our best Primaris army anti-vehicle?
Currently I'm looking at:
-Chaplain Dread w lascannons (also +1 damage warlord trait) for hiding and sniping.
-Lazerbacks for relatively cheap and durable lascannons
-Laser Vindicator. Bascially a slightly tougher laspred
How far will support antitank go to suppliment our otherwise limited dedicated antitank? Aux grenadelaunchers, mortal-wound bolter shells, and +1 to wound on various bolter killteams seems like they can at least do a little work through weight of numbers?
Laser Vindicators are good with full rerolls from the Watch Master. Wish we had an option for the Lt. so that it would go a little easier.
Lascannon Tarantulas would be a cheap add-on for a Fast Attack slot, and once again they do hit more often with a Watch Master nearby (helping make them better) but they're too expensive for just two Lascannons.
We were just discussing this a few posts up. Leviathans and Xiphons and Venator Sicarians from Forgeworld, and Hellblasters from Primaris DW, deepstriking. I think that we're actually well placed for AT with these units. For example, our Xiphons can be buffed with +1 to wound with the doctrines - that's quite rare for imperial factions (normally a chaos thing), so with a bubble, your xiphon will be hitting a Riptide on a 2 rerolling 1s, and wounding on a 2. Nice.
The biggest thing I have run into is not having a good answer for a Knight List for example. 5 Knights just overwhelms my anti-tank and I am struggling to try and win the objective when they are actually faster than me also. I'm not worried about a guard Leman Russ Spam list, but Knights are where I struggle in my own games. It doesn't help that there are 2 Knight players in my local meta.
I think bringing your own knight Castellan is another option, since it's very likely to kill more points worth of knights than it takes to kill it (since it always gets the 3++ but your targets can't all have it). Granted that's not a deathwatch unit.
DW smash captains are also quite good vs knights, though they don't have the crazy mobility of BA or a way to avoid overwatch.
Mass shots also isn't terrible against knights in a pinch. 10 storm bolters with the +1 to wound strat and a nearby watch master does about 7 wounds to a 3+/4++ or 5++ knight with the -1AP ammo. Not ideal, but it's about the same damage of 6-7 unbuffed BS3+ las cannons vs a 5++ knight, so not something to ignore either.
Adeptus Doritos wrote: Diving in late, so if it's been answered- just throw the copy/paste or quote at me...
But has anyone tried using an All-Primaris force of Deathwatch? Around 1500 points?
If so, what were your key take-aways from that, and what would you recommend?
I have - going so far that I had a 2000 point list of all primaris infantyr models at one point. My takeaways:
1) Inceptors. Inceptors got hurt bad by the turn 1 deep strike nerf and the plasma version really needs the Dark Angels strategem to still get work done. Hellblaster Kill teams do much more work and are more durable
2) Agressors (flame): They struggle in kill teams, being the only melee-capable models in a fortis kill team means they rarely get to do their best. They still have the 8" range problem in that anyone deepstriking you doesn't have to fear your auto-hitting overwatch.
3) Agressors (Bolter): Pretty good. The sheer amount of dice put out means that they can give a mixed fortis kill team good protection in overwatch and dent incoming hordes. Make for a solid defensive model.
4) Intercessors: Fantastic in Deathwatch with standard bolt rifles. You start at -1 AP and can go to -3 AP as needed. You have that extra long 30" range to start, so you threaten 36" and can rapid fire out to 18" as needed. Damage output still isn't great, but putting a few wounds on any target within 36" can help take down the more resilent foes after the hellblasters shoot. The Stalker pattern rifles are useless with most SIA and I'm not crazy about Auto Bolt Rifles in the first place, so go pure standard.
5) Redemptor Dreadnought: An anti-horde dreadnought. I like it for the ability to deepstrike the bastard right in front a massive mob of something and dig in, but do be aware that you are kind of betting 200 points of your list on the hope that the enemy will bring 200 points of Str3 hordes. Still, it can eat a light tank in a lucky round of melee so it's not a total loss. I field one opposite a contemptor now in days. The contemptor nails the bigger, tougher target, while the redemptor is a big ol' roadblock that prevents the enemy from manuvering without taking a bunch of dice to the face.
6) Reivers. Man - we all love the look, but these guys struggle in 40k. The grapnel launcher can help you get a less than 9" charge via elevated terrain, but once they get there it's a bunch of AP0 chainsword attacks. Ap 0. On a 20 point model. *sigh* On the plus side, they are pretty good in kill team. You almost never get to use a shock grenade but when you do it's likely to make someone tilt.
7) Hellblasters. Called the best Space Marine model for a reason. It's a 30 inch plasma gun. In deathwatch - it's 5 30 inch plasma guns with 5 expendable bolter carriers to protect them. I carry 2 5xhellblaster 5x intercessor squads and am never disappointed at the carnage they can wreck on enemy vehicles, dreadnoughts and other primaris. Pair with a (relatively) cheap DeathWatch Captain for the rerolls 1s and you can rip huge chunks out of the opposing force long before they can close.
8) Repulsor. If you have 300 points to spare. Do you have 300 points to spare? If you do, fill it with something that won't attract ALL THE FIRE from across the board. Worse - most FOrtis kill teams won't fit inside because of the gravis armor.
Characters:
9) Primaris Watch Captain: Good for your warlord as the stat boost keeps him more survivable. The only hitch is that we can't take the DI one, which is weird.
10) Primaris Librarian: I want to advocate for him because he looks so much better than the oldmarine version, but you are paying point and still getting model that will die to dedicated shooting. My oldmarine librarian can at least hide behind my primaris intercessors.
11) Primaris Chaplain: Who loves an extra wound? This guy! Alas, it's still a melee centric model in a non-melee faction. I deploy one because I'm stubborn, but I don't recommend them.
12) Primaris Apothecary : The only apothecary option. Worth taking one just to keep bringing hellblasters back in a pinch, but bear in mind you need to reseruct 4 other priamris models to make the points worth it.
Primaris are a powerful asset - especially the 100pt 5 man intercessor kill team and the 270pt hellblaster kill teams. I wield 2 battalions with a total of 4 5man intercessor kill teams and 2 hellblaster fortis kill team as my basic building blocks for any list. It starts me with 13 CP (enough to waste on teleportarium) and gives me all the building blocks to both hurt enemy armor and control the board.
Out of interest, what other heavy support option are people taking to get access to a Leviathan? The options seem to be Hellblasters and Land raiders... or maybe some other thing from FW I guess.
For me straight up Hellblasters. I run 1 10-man and am considering a 2nd, although a Leviathan is something I am considering too. I actually ran the short ranged knight with my DW last game. I was impressed by it even though it was against Necrons which was the worst possible matchup for it (The one with the flamer and the Harpoon). I tabled the Necron player turn 3 and it never missed the harpoon, it just had to shoot non-vehicles because of Quantum Shielding (Or whatever it's called).
I ran the math on Vanguard Vets vs Hellblasters, and even without getting rid of the invuln the Hellblasters aren't very far behind the VV (like 3 wounds). I'm thinking about trying out a big unit with 3 TH and 3 HTH to see how they are in practice with a Chaplain as more Anti-tank
Right now I DS 10 Vets and 10 Hellblasters. Sometimes with the Watchmaster depending on the opponent. Hits like a frickin truck. I am considering the second unit of Hellblasters or a Leviathan as a 3rd drop instead of the Watchmaster.
I have - going so far that I had a 2000 point list of all primaris infantyr models at one point. My takeaways:
1) Inceptors. Inceptors got hurt bad by the turn 1 deep strike nerf and the plasma version really needs the Dark Angels strategem to still get work done. Hellblaster Kill teams do much more work and are more durable
Taken alone, totally agreed. As part of a Fortis Kill Team? They bring value to a Hellblaster filled Kill Team by removing one of the normally biggest issues with Hellblasters - getting tied down in combat. Throwing 2 Plasma Inceptors into an Intercessor squad saves a boatload of points and fires on average around the same number of shots at 18'' as the more common 5 Intercessor, 4 Hellblaster, 1 bolt Inceptor unit.
ChargerIIC wrote: 2) Agressors (flame): They struggle in kill teams, being the only melee-capable models in a fortis kill team means they rarely get to do their best. They still have the 8" range problem in that anyone deepstriking you doesn't have to fear your auto-hitting overwatch.
100% agreed. Flamer Aggressors carry the same problems to a Deathwatch army. Still not worth running (sadly).
ChargerIIC wrote: 3) Agressors (Bolter): Pretty good. The sheer amount of dice put out means that they can give a mixed fortis kill team good protection in overwatch and dent incoming hordes. Make for a solid defensive model.
Agreed here, but with one caveat that I want to reference in your next point...
ChargerIIC wrote: 4) Intercessors: Fantastic in Deathwatch with standard bolt rifles. You start at -1 AP and can go to -3 AP as needed. You have that extra long 30" range to start, so you threaten 36" and can rapid fire out to 18" as needed. Damage output still isn't great, but putting a few wounds on any target within 36" can help take down the more resilent foes after the hellblasters shoot. The Stalker pattern rifles are useless with most SIA and I'm not crazy about Auto Bolt Rifles in the first place, so go pure standard.
The auto bolt rifle is absolutely amazing with an Aggressor in the squad. It gives you a pretty decently resilient dakka platform that is highly mobile without any penalty to firing for advancing. This means you have two shots at 30'' AP -1 (which is better than the single shot rifles bring), AP -2 at 18'' (just like a bolt rifle, but you can advance to get into this range easier). You give up the edge cases, like 15'' double tap Hellfire at AP -1 (made up for by having double hellfire outside of 15''), or double tap Vengeance at AP-3 within 12'' (good luck getting into this range without advancing). The extra mobility to get those Aggressors into range more than makes up for those issues in many cases. I like the look of auto bolt rifles on normal codex marines even if they aren't ideal, but for DW I can't sing their praises enough in Fortis kill teams when the dice start flying. That's all thanks to SIA.
ChargerIIC wrote: 5) Redemptor Dreadnought: An anti-horde dreadnought. I like it for the ability to deepstrike the bastard right in front a massive mob of something and dig in, but do be aware that you are kind of betting 200 points of your list on the hope that the enemy will bring 200 points of Str3 hordes. Still, it can eat a light tank in a lucky round of melee so it's not a total loss. I field one opposite a contemptor now in days. The contemptor nails the bigger, tougher target, while the redemptor is a big ol' roadblock that prevents the enemy from manuvering without taking a bunch of dice to the face.
Agreed here. It is definitely not the most competitive Dreadnought option, but it's serviceable - it just brings tools to clear hordes when you probably already have that somewhere else for cheaper that won't attract as much focused attention early on.
ChargerIIC wrote: 6) Reivers. Man - we all love the look, but these guys struggle in 40k. The grapnel launcher can help you get a less than 9" charge via elevated terrain, but once they get there it's a bunch of AP0 chainsword attacks. Ap 0. On a 20 point model. *sigh* On the plus side, they are pretty good in kill team. You almost never get to use a shock grenade but when you do it's likely to make someone tilt.
Exactly right. Adding one into a Fortis Kill Team adds some cool special rules that won't come up often, but when they do, they'll make their presence known.
ChargerIIC wrote: 7) Hellblasters. Called the best Space Marine model for a reason. It's a 30 inch plasma gun. In deathwatch - it's 5 30 inch plasma guns with 5 expendable bolter carriers to protect them. I carry 2 5xhellblaster 5x intercessor squads and am never disappointed at the carnage they can wreck on enemy vehicles, dreadnoughts and other primaris. Pair with a (relatively) cheap DeathWatch Captain for the rerolls 1s and you can rip huge chunks out of the opposing force long before they can close.
Also exactly right. This is the best platform to throw the bolt rifle into on your Intercessors. Consider throwing in an Inceptor to protect them from one of the biggest threats that Hellblasters have faced since hitting the table - being silenced when a Wave Serpent flies into them.
These guys are also an amazing unit to drop a doctrine onto.
ChargerIIC wrote: 8) Repulsor. If you have 300 points to spare. Do you have 300 points to spare? If you do, fill it with something that won't attract ALL THE FIRE from across the board. Worse - most FOrtis kill teams won't fit inside because of the gravis armor.
Not only will you need to make cuts to fit a Fortis Kill team inside if it includes an Aggressors, but Inceptors can't even step into it so you're limited there as well. Wish it were cheaper, the ability to transport being such a high premium is kind of a pain. Good source of AT, though, and is relatively durable if you have other big threats to take the heat off of it. Fly gives it unique movement abilities so it can't be bogged down in combat and can hide behind some massive terrain then fly right over to drop a unit off somewhere.
9) Primaris Watch Captain: Good for your warlord as the stat boost keeps him more survivable. The only hitch is that we can't take the DI one, which is weird.
Yeah, though the Gravis one is super weird in general with his wargear being so utterly contradictory.
ChargerIIC wrote: 10) Primaris Librarian: I want to advocate for him because he looks so much better than the oldmarine version, but you are paying point and still getting model that will die to dedicated shooting. My oldmarine librarian can at least hide behind my primaris intercessors.
All characters die to dedicated shooting - use the character rule to keep him protected just like you would any other foot Lib. Librarius is a serviceable discipline, and you'll want some deny and psychic fortress protection since you don't want your precious 20 point troops eating smites all game.
ChargerIIC wrote: 11) Primaris Chaplain: Who loves an extra wound? This guy! Alas, it's still a melee centric model in a non-melee faction. I deploy one because I'm stubborn, but I don't recommend them.
Poor guy has a pretty weak aura - it's a pity. Could use this model to kitbash a cool looking Libby though!
ChargerIIC wrote: 12) Primaris Apothecary : The only apothecary option. Worth taking one just to keep bringing hellblasters back in a pinch, but bear in mind you need to reseruct 4 other priamris models to make the points worth it.
That last point is the real kicker - just bring 4 other Primaris models in his place lol
That guy should honestly give a FNP aura. Marines are all about their support auras - apothecaries (and techmarines) shouldn't be left out of this!
ChargerIIC wrote: Primaris are a powerful asset - especially the 100pt 5 man intercessor kill team and the 270pt hellblaster kill teams. I wield 2 battalions with a total of 4 5man intercessor kill teams and 2 hellblaster fortis kill team as my basic building blocks for any list. It starts me with 13 CP (enough to waste on teleportarium) and gives me all the building blocks to both hurt enemy armor and control the board.
I've run a few different types of kill teams with mixed Primaris and have not regretted any of them. Lately I've been swarming the board with ultra mobile 6 man squads made of up 5 auto bolt rifle Intercessors and an Aggressor. With clever model placement, you can keep the slightly slower Aggressor in coherency so you end up with a unit that can move 7-12" and bust out a ton of reliable SIA shooting.
I love everything you said above. I am struggling right now to justify the Auto Bolt Rifles though. I usually deploy my Fortis Killteams forward, and because of that it is usually pretty easy to get into the 18" rapid fire range for Kraken Rounds, and that also matches the range of the Inceptors and Aggressors. The added AP is so strong in this case that I have found myself dropping the Auto Bolt Rifle in favor of the cheaper Bolt Rifle. I think if it was the same cost I would be more inclined to take the Autos, but at an extra 2 ppm I actually feel I am hurting myself in some pretty important situations. Also... 12" RF is pretty easy to get into in my meta for the delicious ap-3 bolter fire.
I am on team bolt rifle for this one. The auto bolt rifle costs more all the while being a sidegrade under the best circumstances and outright worst in most. I can't stress enough how important the base -1 and extra range on the rifle is when used with the overall best round - Hellfire. If auto bolt rifles were the same points as a bolt rifle MAYBE they would be worth it sometimes, but when they cost more for less it's not worth it.
Captain Garius wrote: I love everything you said above. I am struggling right now to justify the Auto Bolt Rifles though. I usually deploy my Fortis Killteams forward, and because of that it is usually pretty easy to get into the 18" rapid fire range for Kraken Rounds, and that also matches the range of the Inceptors and Aggressors. The added AP is so strong in this case that I have found myself dropping the Auto Bolt Rifle in favor of the cheaper Bolt Rifle. I think if it was the same cost I would be more inclined to take the Autos, but at an extra 2 ppm I actually feel I am hurting myself in some pretty important situations. Also... 12" RF is pretty easy to get into in my meta for the delicious ap-3 bolter fire.
It's also 1 point extra instead of 2. Auto bolt rifles are 2 points, but bolt rifles are 1 point already so it isn't a huge upgrade. And that's the thing, bud, specifically regarding that immediate need to get within 18'', there is no added AP by taking bolt rifles over auto bolt rifles until you reach 12''.
A Kraken round bolt rifle is 2 shots at 18'', str 4, ap -2, 1 damage
A Vengeance round auto bolt rifle is 2 shots at 18'', str 4, ap -2, 1 damage
I'm just a huge fan because of the mobility from the Aggressors synergizes so well for a unit I want clearing screens and rushing to cover often, which comes up way more in my local meta. If you're seeing a ton of success by getting within 12'' quickly and never need to advance for it, then bolt rifles are definitely a good way to go for you. I think they're honestly pretty balanced all things considered.
Stalkers need love, though :(
Tibs Ironblood wrote: I am on team bolt rifle for this one. The auto bolt rifle costs more all the while being a sidegrade under the best circumstances and outright worst in most. I can't stress enough how important the base -1 and extra range on the rifle is when used with the overall best round - Hellfire. If auto bolt rifles were the same points as a bolt rifle MAYBE they would be worth it sometimes, but when they cost more for less it's not worth it.
They're actually mathematically better in every circumstances over 15'', and their mobility means they're outside the deathzone of rapid fire plasma in order to bring their entire damage potential online.
And hellfire isn't the overall best round - the round that gives you two shots is the overall best round for bolt rifles, which means you'll be firing Kraken more often than Hellfire by necessity. In all other cases, like for auto bolters, you pick the round that's more powerful against the targets you're facing. 1 point is worth making your Aggressors move up the board more than just 5'' at a time, I feel.
And in games, I've never once felt I wish I had an extra AP on any of my screen clearing units, horde mulching units. However, I have often felt I wish I could move further, to make it to cover, to ensure I'm protected from smites, or to help screen. Extra movement has always been valuable - extra AP on a handful of shots has never been so good that I can easily land one way or the other on that.
Bolt rifles are great, no doubt about it - but I don't see the draw in adding Aggressors to a bolt rifle squad. Better to throw them alongside Hellblasters I think, where they synergize better. For what I use Aggressors for (it's a boatload of str 4 shooting, so mulch cheap horde infantry), the auto bolter fits their role so much better.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: I am on team bolt rifle for this one. The auto bolt rifle costs more all the while being a sidegrade under the best circumstances and outright worst in most. I can't stress enough how important the base -1 and extra range on the rifle is when used with the overall best round - Hellfire. If auto bolt rifles were the same points as a bolt rifle MAYBE they would be worth it sometimes, but when they cost more for less it's not worth it.
They're actually mathematically better in every circumstances over 15'', and their mobility means they're outside the deathzone of rapid fire plasma in order to bring their entire damage potential online.
And hellfire isn't the overall best round - the round that gives you two shots is the overall best round for bolt rifles, which means you'll be firing Kraken more often than Hellfire by necessity. In all other cases, like for auto bolters, you pick the round that's more powerful against the targets you're facing. 1 point is worth making your Aggressors move up the board more than just 5'' at a time, I feel.
And in games, I've never once felt I wish I had an extra AP on any of my screen clearing units, horde mulching units. However, I have often felt I wish I could move further, to make it to cover, to ensure I'm protected from smites, or to help screen. Extra movement has always been valuable - extra AP on a handful of shots has never been so good that I can easily land one way or the other on that.
Bolt rifles are great, no doubt about it - but I don't see the draw in adding Aggressors to a bolt rifle squad. Better to throw them alongside Hellblasters I think, where they synergize better. For what I use Aggressors for (it's a boatload of str 4 shooting, so mulch cheap horde infantry), the auto bolter fits their role so much better.
They're mathematically better outside 15 and entirely worse inside 15. If you have an aggressor in the squad you are going to be very close to the 18" mark and with kraken will double tap at that range anyways. I hold that you want to play dangerously and live in that short-mid range zone to leverage your superior melee profiles and pressure more shooty armies when possible. Factor in also that getting within 15-18 inches with a bolt rifle is very easy and takes one or two turns depending on the army you are facing and who goes first. You can also deepstrike within rapid fire ranged easily if you so choose. Hellblasters are a great unit to put inside a kill team and they want to be in that sweet 15 inch range bracket anyways.
Bolt rifles have superior synergy with these models and are cheaper. I want to be close no matter what due to the inceptor, aggressors and hellblasters wanting to be in 15-18. If you are ONLY running the team as an anti chaff unit then maybe I can see going with assault bolters to get into position a bit better, but once there you never want to move anyway so the aggressor can double tap.
Even if I had a hardcore chaff eating unit I'd stick it in reserve so it does not get eaten alive turn 1 thus nullifying the mobility advantage of the assualt bolter option.
Edit: The -1 ap on the bolt rifle is a BIG deal. It reduces a guardsmen chance to survive a shot by 50% and takes marine bodies from 1/3 fails to 1/2 fails. Hellfire always wounding on twos is almost always the best option in rapid fire which is what you want to be in.
Figured I'd ask here since DW players are reading this thread....
Dumb question, maybe I am blind....did they take away the option for DW Terminators to take the power first/meltagun option away? I can't find a points cost anywhere....
I should also point out that my Fortis Kill Teams are not relegated to anti-chaff units only, so maybe that influences their use. Mine fairly often are the units used to take out monsters and elite infantry as well. My Hellblasters are usually on tanks all game, so they don't have a lot of extra time.
Interestingly... I ran the math on 10 SB Vets vs 10 Bolt Rifle Intercessors, and against anything T5 or higher the Bolt Rifles, even though they are half the shots, almost put the same number of wounds as the SB's... Cut them down to the same number of shots and the Rifles blow them out of the water. I see a very similar correlation with the BR and ABR comparison, but it depends on what you are using them for. Just Chaff? Go SB Vets. Fast way of synergizing with Bolter Inceptors and Aggressors? ABRs. Generalist unit that will do what they need to? I argue it's hard to do better than the BR. Deathwatch are one of the best overall Chaff clearers in the game, so I try to focus on units that can handle other things our success isn't as prolific at.
grouchoben wrote: I'm with you Lemondish. Aggressors and auto bolt rifles dovetail very nicely, I always start my lists with 2 of them and a SB killteam.
The squads advance on the first turn and then hardly move, in my experience. I like the 30" assault 2 -1 profile.
If they don't move, why not take the standard bolt rifle for the extra 6" of 'not in melee'?
thoughts guys?? im not 100 percent on this list but i do have all the models, the plan is for the venerable dreads to sit back and plink away with lascannon and ML. The corvus and razorback go forward with the veterans and use them on infantry targets while the intercessors slog on foot. Im not sold on putting an aggressor in with the primaris and they are quite pricey.
One of the options i could go with is drop the aggressors and use the points to chuck on my razorback vets to give them some combi meltas.
Looks okay to me. Not sure about the infernus though - is it for the strat?
As far as primaris go, your arrangement seems a bit odd. The aggressors are doing nowt for the hellblasters, which are spread out across a wide area, and will therefore often find themselves unable to overcharge. I'd suggest putting the 9 hellblasters in one team, and DSing it using the strat, straight into rapidfire range where they yearn to be! Your jumpcap shoud be on call to suport them when they drop, and giving him the beacon could be clutch (they get caught in cc? no problem, beam them out and fire at will). That leaves you with 3 fortis teams, each with an aggressor. Nice. I prefer assault bolters, others rifles (see the discussion above). I'd recommend running both in your list and working out for yourself which you prefer.
Finally, your razorback and vens could really benefit from the aegis dominatus relic. It wont fit in this list, but worth a try in the future. Your dreads will have 5++ and 6+++, which makes them much more tanky, plus the cap holding the shield gives reroll 1s which is huge on low rate of fire/high damage units.
Finally, I'd drop one marine from your killteams and plug some more Stormshields in both squads - they will be hvts and therefore one 3++ roll aint going to do much on its own.
grouchoben wrote: Looks okay to me. Not sure about the infernus though - is it for the strat?
As far as primaris go, your arrangement seems a bit odd. The aggressors are doing nowt for the hellblasters, which are spread out across a wide area, and will therefore often find themselves unable to overcharge. I'd suggest putting the 9 hellblasters in one team, and DSing it using the strat, straight into rapidfire range where they yearn to be! Your jumpcap shoud be on call to suport them when they drop, and giving him the beacon could be clutch (they get caught in cc? no problem, beam them out and fire at will). That leaves you with 3 fortis teams, each with an aggressor. Nice. I prefer assault bolters, others rifles (see the discussion above). I'd recommend running both in your list and working out for yourself which you prefer.
Finally, your razorback and vens could really benefit from the aegis dominatus relic. It wont fit in this list, but worth a try in the future. Your dreads will have 5++ and 6+++, which makes them much more tanky, plus the cap holding the shield gives reroll 1s which is huge on low rate of fire/high damage units.
Finally, I'd drop one marine from your killteams and plug some more Stormshields in both squads - they will be hvts and therefore one 3++ roll aint going to do much on its own.
Thanks for the feedback dude yeah the internus is there for the mortal wound strategy on vehicles plus it's quite cheap and looks cool.
I've put the hellblasters in the intercessor units to try and keep them alive. I'm thinking of binning the aggressors completely and adding more stuff to the vets.
Your call, but DS Hellblasters and Aggressor + Intercessors for bully units are two of my favourite units in DW right now. Hellblasters & Intercessors costs 270pts, 10 hellblasters costs 340pts. Youre spending a cp on DS, another 2 on a doctrine, so the opportunity cost is quite high, so I like to make it count. Have a play around with them though - that's the beauty of building a DW army, it allows for so many builds for you to explore - each squad you paint unlocks more options. Good luck dude.
Captain Garius wrote: I should also point out that my Fortis Kill Teams are not relegated to anti-chaff units only, so maybe that influences their use. Mine fairly often are the units used to take out monsters and elite infantry as well. My Hellblasters are usually on tanks all game, so they don't have a lot of extra time.
Interestingly... I ran the math on 10 SB Vets vs 10 Bolt Rifle Intercessors, and against anything T5 or higher the Bolt Rifles, even though they are half the shots, almost put the same number of wounds as the SB's... Cut them down to the same number of shots and the Rifles blow them out of the water. I see a very similar correlation with the BR and ABR comparison, but it depends on what you are using them for. Just Chaff? Go SB Vets. Fast way of synergizing with Bolter Inceptors and Aggressors? ABRs. Generalist unit that will do what they need to? I argue it's hard to do better than the BR. Deathwatch are one of the best overall Chaff clearers in the game, so I try to focus on units that can handle other things our success isn't as prolific at.
No arguments here. Was just planting my flag on there being no real reason to bring an Aggressor in a bolt rifle squad. No need for the buff he brings and you're actively harming yourself by being shackled to a 5" move if your goal is to get the squad into his range. Choose to advance, and every Intercessor in that squad ends up an expensive ablative wound.
I personally really like the bolt rifle alongside Hellblasters or a couple plasma Inceptors. Or in a plain, 5 man unit.
grouchoben wrote: I'm with you Lemondish. Aggressors and auto bolt rifles dovetail very nicely, I always start my lists with 2 of them and a SB killteam.
The squads advance on the first turn and then hardly move, in my experience. I like the 30" assault 2 -1 profile.
If they don't move, why not take the standard bolt rifle for the extra 6" of 'not in melee'?
They're mathematically better outside 15 and entirely worse inside 15. If you have an aggressor in the squad you are going to be very close to the 18" mark and with kraken will double tap at that range anyways. I hold that you want to play dangerously and live in that short-mid range zone to leverage your superior melee profiles and pressure more shooty armies when possible. Factor in also that getting within 15-18 inches with a bolt rifle is very easy and takes one or two turns depending on the army you are facing and who goes first. You can also deepstrike within rapid fire ranged easily if you so choose. Hellblasters are a great unit to put inside a kill team and they want to be in that sweet 15 inch range bracket anyways.
Bolt rifles have superior synergy with these models and are cheaper. I want to be close no matter what due to the inceptor, aggressors and hellblasters wanting to be in 15-18. If you are ONLY running the team as an anti chaff unit then maybe I can see going with assault bolters to get into position a bit better, but once there you never want to move anyway so the aggressor can double tap.
Even if I had a hardcore chaff eating unit I'd stick it in reserve so it does not get eaten alive turn 1 thus nullifying the mobility advantage of the assualt bolter option.
Edit: The -1 ap on the bolt rifle is a BIG deal. It reduces a guardsmen chance to survive a shot by 50% and takes marine bodies from 1/3 fails to 1/2 fails. Hellfire always wounding on twos is almost always the best option in rapid fire which is what you want to be in.
If you have an Aggressor in the squad, he's stuck moving 5" every turn if you want the Intercessors to fire. Otherwise you advance and they're silent. That is not synergistic at all - that's the exact opposite. It's conflicting.
As such, I fundamentally disagree with your assertion that it's easy to get within 18" of anything other than chaff. Perhaps if you advance, but at the cost of half the squad's firepower? No, thank you.
Bolt rifles are great - just not with Aggressors. No reason to add them in, not with what you have in mind for the squad, because they definitely do not synergize at all with bolt rifles. Their buff is entirely wasted - that's a good sign that it's not the best addition here.
That's very true. The Aggressors don't synergize with the bolt rifles at all. Now I have only played two games with them in my Intercessor squads rather than in a Raven Guard detachment so keep that in mind as I give this anecdotal evidence lol:
Both games I have placed them on the front line of my deployment. One game was Vanguard Deployment and the other was Dawn of War. In both games, they never had to move much. The vanguard game they moved once and then stayed still the rest of the game and in the other, I was shooting from turn one without moving. I think if you have more than a single Aggressor (And I typically run 3 in a squad) then you really want to be sitting still. So I will move the Intercessors around the Aggressor turrets to manipulate their RF range, and then split fire what I need to to make them useful.
thoughts guys?? im not 100 percent on this list but i do have all the models, the plan is for the venerable dreads to sit back and plink away with lascannon and ML. The corvus and razorback go forward with the veterans and use them on infantry targets while the intercessors slog on foot. Im not sold on putting an aggressor in with the primaris and they are quite pricey.
One of the options i could go with is drop the aggressors and use the points to chuck on my razorback vets to give them some combi meltas.
You have some really good components and the list seems focused on letting the enemy rush into you - are you in a melee heavy meta? I'd actually drop the corvus in this instance - it's really an attack minded craft and you have a pretty heavy defensive list. I'd swap it for something melee oriented - maybe a vanguard vet/bike squad or a 3 man boltstorm agressor squad - something that can react to the inevitable melee conflict and provide a counter-punch.
They're mathematically better outside 15 and entirely worse inside 15. If you have an aggressor in the squad you are going to be very close to the 18" mark and with kraken will double tap at that range anyways. I hold that you want to play dangerously and live in that short-mid range zone to leverage your superior melee profiles and pressure more shooty armies when possible. Factor in also that getting within 15-18 inches with a bolt rifle is very easy and takes one or two turns depending on the army you are facing and who goes first. You can also deepstrike within rapid fire ranged easily if you so choose. Hellblasters are a great unit to put inside a kill team and they want to be in that sweet 15 inch range bracket anyways.
Bolt rifles have superior synergy with these models and are cheaper. I want to be close no matter what due to the inceptor, aggressors and hellblasters wanting to be in 15-18. If you are ONLY running the team as an anti chaff unit then maybe I can see going with assault bolters to get into position a bit better, but once there you never want to move anyway so the aggressor can double tap.
Even if I had a hardcore chaff eating unit I'd stick it in reserve so it does not get eaten alive turn 1 thus nullifying the mobility advantage of the assualt bolter option.
Edit: The -1 ap on the bolt rifle is a BIG deal. It reduces a guardsmen chance to survive a shot by 50% and takes marine bodies from 1/3 fails to 1/2 fails. Hellfire always wounding on twos is almost always the best option in rapid fire which is what you want to be in.
If you have an Aggressor in the squad, he's stuck moving 5" every turn if you want the Intercessors to fire. Otherwise you advance and they're silent. That is not synergistic at all - that's the exact opposite. It's conflicting.
As such, I fundamentally disagree with your assertion that it's easy to get within 18" of anything other than chaff. Perhaps if you advance, but at the cost of half the squad's firepower? No, thank you.
Bolt rifles are great - just not with Aggressors. No reason to add them in, not with what you have in mind for the squad, because they definitely do not synergize at all with bolt rifles. Their buff is entirely wasted - that's a good sign that it's not the best addition here.
But I think we've said all that matters here.
The reason I say there is synergy with the bolt rifles and the aggressor is that the aggressors range is 18 inches which puts your rapid firing bolt rifles in in perfect rapid fire range or double tapping hellfire if they are 3 inches closer. You are 3 inches away from making the more expensive assault bolters entirely inferior. I will admit though I do see your point about getting into position and counteracting the inferior assault firepower by being able to possibly fire with the aggressor turn one and have a more mobile unit. Personally I do see myself sticking to the rifles and deep striking in anti chaff units to completely negate the advantage offered by assault weapons, but I do see your point and respect it. Next time I get a game in I'll try a squad or two of assault bolters and see how it works for me. Maybe I'm entirely wrong and they're amazing or I'll hate them and stick to my original position. Won't knew for a fact till I try it a few times.
thoughts guys?? im not 100 percent on this list but i do have all the models, the plan is for the venerable dreads to sit back and plink away with lascannon and ML. The corvus and razorback go forward with the veterans and use them on infantry targets while the intercessors slog on foot. Im not sold on putting an aggressor in with the primaris and they are quite pricey.
One of the options i could go with is drop the aggressors and use the points to chuck on my razorback vets to give them some combi meltas.
I'd say chuck out the Aggressors definitely, and I absolutely love combi-meltas (I've been running three squads carrying a couple combi-meltas in Assault Cannon Razorbacks lately), but I imagine combi-plasma is probably more tactically flexible and probably about as powerful (except within melta range).
Another way to go is trying to find some way to fit in Inceptors there instead of the Aggressors. One of the biggest ways units can silence Hellblasters is by running something into them, be it a chaff unit or some fast transport or the like. If your local meta likes to use transports and vehicles aggressively like this it might be worth considering the Inceptors so you aren't tied down so easily. I lost count of the times a Wave Serpent flew into my Codex Marine Hellblasters.
As for the Corvus, I'm a huge fan of just ditching that Stormstrike launcher for the Blackstar Rocket Launchers just to add a bunch more str 6 shooting and double down on what works best. 2, str 8, ap -3, 3 damage shots hitting 50% of the time means you'll usually only get one through - not really worth it if you ask me. Same issue with the Lascannons on the Corvus - too few shots to be reliable when you're only hitting 50% of the time. Save 12 points by going with 2d6 additional str 6 shots that are more accurate against targets with Fly, make better use of your auspex array, and partially overcomes the movement penalty through sheer number of shots. Different primary targets entirely though, so stick with the Stormstrike if you like the flexibility here.
Also, and sorry to rain on your parade, but I think that Watch Captain has an invalid build. The most recent data sheet is the one in the codex and I think it says you have to trade in your master crafted boltgun AND chainsword for two items in the equipment list, so you can't take the master crafted boltgun alongside a thunder hammer, sadly. Don't even think this was a valid Index option, either, since there was only one wargear option available.
The reason I say there is synergy with the bolt rifles and the aggressor is that the aggressors range is 18 inches which puts your rapid firing bolt rifles in in perfect rapid fire range or double tapping hellfire if they are 3 inches closer. You are 3 inches away from making the more expensive assault bolters entirely inferior. I will admit though I do see your point about getting into position and counteracting the inferior assault firepower by being able to possibly fire with the aggressor turn one and have a more mobile unit. Personally I do see myself sticking to the rifles and deep striking in anti chaff units to completely negate the advantage offered by assault weapons, but I do see your point and respect it. Next time I get a game in I'll try a squad or two of assault bolters and see how it works for me. Maybe I'm entirely wrong and they're amazing or I'll hate them and stick to my original position. Won't knew for a fact till I try it a few times.
I wouldn't say you're entirely wrong, or even wrong at all. It's really more about the role of the Aggressor I was trying to get at. He's a good source of dakka, and you can work around the downsides of his 5'' movement and the lack of synergy running him without assault or heavy weapons, but I'm not sure that's worth it. I think the AP-1 is really valuable, and it's such good weapon for SIA: AP -3 potentially, AP -2 at massive range, hellfire at AP -1 = the sweet spot. I just don't like shackling them to an Aggressor. I've found that they're far more powerful as the bodyguards and ablative wounds for Hellblasters.
Where I find the value the most with assault bolt rifles is that I'm giving up a point of AP at 15'' or less and gaining the ability to move 7 to 12'' for 5 more points. That type of tactical flexibility to get my shooting where it needs to go has been a massive boon for me in my local meta. Screening units, tar pits, horde swarms, etc. are numerous in my local meta, so a way for me to both punch a hole in those and reposition to capture objectives potentially at the speed of a Rhino is awesome. Reaching into the opponent's backfield early on with 10 shots of SIA from just 5 guys at 30'' has been really flexible, but at the same time if I need to play defensively and avoid the double tap range on rapid fire plasma, I can dance in that sweet zone.
Ultimately, I think your build is a more offensive take that definitely brings some more pain, but I personally prefer the tactical flexibility of the extra mobility. I think what's clear here is that they play kind of differently, and if you aren't inclined to or able to take advantage of that extra movement, then it isn't much of a boon I guess. So definitely see your point there.
Cheers for all the list feed back guys, I agree about the corvus probably being a bit redundant here and I have been ticking over in my head how to actually use it properly. I have just painted it up though and I does look cool!
I've switched up the second veteran squad for 5 vets, 3 combi melta and 2 storm bolter storm shield. They will probably go in the blackstar for now as I don't have any other stuff to bring my points up. I will use the corvus to attack a high priority target and drop the combi meltas to slag it.
I haven't even played a game yet though so it's all theory so far I'm sure it will get chopped and changed the more units I paint up.
I've been running pure Primaris Ravenguard for a while, but the lure of SIA and better stratagems (outside of SFTS, I tend to only use CP on rerolls) has made me look at deathwatch.
Question the first: given the increase in damage output from SIA, is it viable to ignore the fortis kill teams and just run 5 man intercessor squads?
Question the second: How would you combine the following into an effective pure primaris deathwatch list?
Spoiler:
Primaris Librarian, Primaris Watch Captain, 15 intercessors with auto bolt rifles, 9 aggressors with boltstorm, 6 inceptors with plasma, 15 hellblasters with auto plasma
Ericthegreen wrote: How would you combine the following into an effective pure primaris deathwatch list?
Primaris Librarian, Primaris Watch Captain, 15 intercessors with auto bolt rifles, 9 aggressors with boltstorm, 6 inceptors with plasma, 15 hellblasters with auto plasma
Well, that’s a battalion, so how to divy up the extras to fill up the teams in the question.
5 intercessors, 4 agressors, 1 inceptor. Gives you T5, tons of dakka, and fall back and shoot.
5 intercessors, 4 hellblaster, 1 inceptor. Hot plasma lovin’ that can’t be locked in CC
I was going to say the move and fire bit of the aggressors won’t help your guns, but noticed you said auto-plasma. So if you swap a hellblaster out for an agressor in that last squad, you can advance up the field and fire at full effect.
If you took two of the first squad and used the DS strategem, you can drop a ton of pain in someone’s lap. The second squad (with the aggressor) can start on the table and move where needed. Or drop and bake, depending.
Depending how you kit out your troops, you will probably be left with a hellblaster and inceptor squad, maybe enough aggressors (if you go heavy on the hellblasters)
Yeah, I agree Nevelon. But of course the really great thing is that you can go back to the drawing board and respec your fortis teams again and again to fill different roles. That's honestly one of the cooler things about the Watch, in my opinion.
Do it. I was a RG player and haven't looked back. I occasionally still consider taking a detachment so I can SFTS a unit of 6 Aggressors... but other than that DW is great. Also, 5 man Intercessor units alone are still good units. It is hard to pass up the ability to protect your more expensive units though. I typically run 7-8 man teams with varying numbers of the special units depending on the purpose of the team.
List Suggestion A:
3 Kill Teams with 5 Intercessors and 4 Hellblasters, and 1 Aggressor each. Then drop the Aggressors with a command point, and the Inceptors naturally. This will give a lot of good, mobile Firepower.
List Suggestion B:
3 Kill Teams with 5 Intercessors, 3 Aggressors, and 2 Inceptors each. Then drop a 10 man and a 5 man unit of Hellblasters for 2 CP. This is going to be a lot more of your eggs in one basket, but it is pretty mobile, all your goodies are protected, and your intercessors are effectively T5 because of mixed unit toughness. Low on-board presence is the biggest weakness of this.
List Suggestion C:
3 Kill Teams with 5 Intercessors, 1 Aggressor, 1 Inceptor. Then just put everything else in teams by themselves. This gives you a 10 man DS Hellblaster, a 5 man DS Hellblaster, and a 6 man DS Aggressor with a 3 man Plasma Inceptor and keeps your small, mobile units flexible.
Not much different in the 3 suggestions, but then that is the beauty of DW. Keep altering things till you find something you like and that works with your meta. I have almost your exact Primaris models, except I have 3 bolter Inceptors and 3 Plasma ones. I am planning on getting more Intercessors and Hellblasters because they are just too damned good.
For all their weaknesses Hellblasters are one of the best non-FW units we have. I have 15 and need 5 more. I dropped a unit of 10 in and with only reroll to hit buff they killed a monolith in a single turn (Had to use the anti-tank round stratagem from my Librarian to finish off the last wound). So they do work.
Fortis Kill Team - 5x intercessor with auto bolt rifle, 1x boltstorm aggressor
Fortis Kill Team - 5x intercessor with auto bolt rifle, 1x boltstorm aggressor
Fortis Kill Team - 5x intercessor with auto bolt rifle, 1x boltstorm aggressor
Aggressor Squad - 6x boltstorm gauntlets
Inceptor Squad - 3x plasma incinerator (OR 4x assault bolter- depending on whether i do the conversion)
Hellblaster Squad - 10, rapid fire
Hellblaster Squad - 10, rapid fire
The Aggressors, Captain and Librarian form a centre that the 3 fortis kill teams pivot around, clearing chaff first, then using SIA for other targets.
The Hellblasters and Inceptors deep strike for anti tank duty.
It's similar to the Ravenguard army i've been using, where the 9 aggressors SFTS for chaff and the intercessors hold objectives, but the anti tank duties fall on the plasma inceptors as the hellblasters have assault and will run and gun. I think on balance it's better
Anyone who thinks that hellblasters get it done as AT need to play more games vs IKs. Don't forget our friends the Drukhari can just poop out -1 to hit on any old unit.
Martel732 wrote: Anyone who thinks that hellblasters get it done as AT need to play more games vs IKs. Don't forget our friends the Drukhari can just poop out -1 to hit on any old unit.
Yup IK suck. S8 with the +1 to wound stratagem helps though
Martel732 wrote: Anyone who thinks that hellblasters get it done as AT need to play more games vs IKs. Don't forget our friends the Drukhari can just poop out -1 to hit on any old unit.
Yup IK suck. S8 with the +1 to wound stratagem helps though
I don't see many knights in my meta they exist but they are not the norm. I usually only play 1k tournaments so those generally have only 1 knight and it's not the one with 30+wounds. I'm confident I could handle 1 or two by shooting them until they are less effective and focusing on objectives. I use hellblasters as well as a killteam with 4 frag cannons and stormbolters/ storm shields dropped in to blast away a bunch of wounds. My aggressors and assault intercessors then run everywhere toward objectives and taking any shots of opportunity on big or small units where I can force the opponent to take more saves.
I mean... outside of Guard or maybe Custodes there isn't enough AT in the Imperium without having to sacrifice your other stuff to be able to take on a full knight list. I have 2 guys in my Meta that run 5 IKs, or they run 3 with some allies. DW just can't handle that at all so I try to focus on what I can, and use tactics/objective placements to help in those bad situations.
Martel732 wrote: Anyone who thinks that hellblasters get it done as AT need to play more games vs IKs. Don't forget our friends the Drukhari can just poop out -1 to hit on any old unit.
I've killed knights with my two fortis hellblaster kill teams. Being able to pump out up to 20 2DMG shots on target can ruin a knight's day. The fact that you can deepstrike them turn 1 to prevent the knight from hiding around tall terrain is bonus money. If I'm really lucky, it's a 3 or 4 knight list and I can make LOW my mission tactic, re-rolling 1s on to-hit and wound rolls. If it's big I'll even splurge on +1 to my wound rolls just to screw over a castellean.
I run two forms of AT in my list - the hellblasters teams take down the biggest threats while a single contemptor dread teleports in front of the biggest melee threat and either kills it outright or ties it up. A fellow DeathWatch player drops three squads in one go with a jump captain - he just points at the biggest thing and erases it, then goes down the line, killing the next biggest target and so forth.
Hellblasters aren't 'sexy' in regards to having a single statline that screams 'kill in one shot' like some of the big tanks/dread options, but you can get a whole fortis kill team with it's 20 wounds, ability to teleport, bad dice mitigration (via multiple shots), Watch Captain compatibility, cover save and Mission Tactic. They are solid workhorses and are probably hands-down the best infantry model in the Space Marine codex.
They also have very good output for their cost. The main problem with them is survivability, which the Intercessors help with. Mostly though, its for the ability to fall back and shoot.
Any Danger Close teams I stick one in. 6 Heavy Bolter shot equivalents is nice on it's own, but falling back and shooting? It has been clutch for me in several games.
Speaking of I did a 2k game over the weekend. I ran 3 Kill teams: 1 with 5 Hellblasters, 1 with 5 Aggressors, and 1 with 1 aggressor and 1 Inceptor with the Intercessors all having Auto Bolt Rifles. The 5 Intercessor 5 Aggressor unit was MVP hands down. I did a second game that day at 1k and the same unit was MVP. Being able to protect the Aggressors is insane, and I just moved them up turn 1 both games, and then sat in the middle of the board. I am honestly not very impressed with the 5 Intercessor 5 Hellblaster teams. I prefer just DSing 10 Hellblasters. Hell, even just 5 since most of the games they didn't get in rapid fire range because of the missions. So far DS seems to be the best way to run Hellblasters, and I'll keep my Kill Teams for Aggressors and Inceptors.
Yes and no. 5 intercessors and 5 hellblasters cost 270pts. 10 hellblasters cost 70pts more for double the plasma.
Both are good, but I've been using pure hellblaster squads to good effect recently. Deepstrike and native reroll 1s to wound really make the unit a different beast. Both are great options.
I'm finding I like the mixed hellblaster squads because they can touch things turn 1 and deepstriking aggressors (backed by some DA plasma inceptors).
Problem is this list get destroyed by anyone running dark reapers, blasters or the knight Gatling cannon (- ap 2d weapons) and I'm not sure how to deal with that yet.
Speaking of I did a 2k game over the weekend. I ran 3 Kill teams: 1 with 5 Hellblasters, 1 with 5 Aggressors, and 1 with 1 aggressor and 1 Inceptor with the Intercessors all having Auto Bolt Rifles. The 5 Intercessor 5 Aggressor unit was MVP hands down. I did a second game that day at 1k and the same unit was MVP. Being able to protect the Aggressors is insane, and I just moved them up turn 1 both games, and then sat in the middle of the board. I am honestly not very impressed with the 5 Intercessor 5 Hellblaster teams. I prefer just DSing 10 Hellblasters. Hell, even just 5 since most of the games they didn't get in rapid fire range because of the missions. So far DS seems to be the best way to run Hellblasters, and I'll keep my Kill Teams for Aggressors and Inceptors.
I think hellblasters in tercessor teams are almost better off with assault guns and an aggressor so they can run and gun.
deep striking rapid fire hellblasters is legit though
So I'm contemplating on running a DW battalion alongside my AM detachment. My Troop choices are basically three squads with 5 intercessors, 3-4 hellblasters, and an inceptor per squad. Does this sound like a reasonable loadout?
I'm curious about the HQ choices though. A Watch Master seems a great choice for all them rerolls but I'd like to keep the detachment fully Primaris. I guess I could proxy a Primaris Captain as a watch master though? What about a Librarian? I am not sold on SM spells but I guess that deny roll would be nice? What spells would you recommend?
For HQ's I run a Watch Master, Jump Librarian. If I run the second battalion I throw in a Jump Watch Captain with TH/SS and another Librarian.
Null Zone is amazing even though it is less than reliable. Might of Heroes and the one that lets you reroll charges/always fight first is pretty good as well. Plus denying and smite are always welcome.
Weazel wrote: So I'm contemplating on running a DW battalion alongside my AM detachment. My Troop choices are basically three squads with 5 intercessors, 3-4 hellblasters, and an inceptor per squad. Does this sound like a reasonable loadout?
I'm curious about the HQ choices though. A Watch Master seems a great choice for all them rerolls but I'd like to keep the detachment fully Primaris. I guess I could proxy a Primaris Captain as a watch master though? What about a Librarian? I am not sold on SM spells but I guess that deny roll would be nice? What spells would you recommend?
I'm a primaris player first and foremost, but some HQs are better as Primaris and some are better as 'babymarines':
Librarian: No invul and attracts fire like hell. The oldmarine version can at least take a decent weapon and is short enough to hide behind your intercessors.
Watch Captain: You want the extra wound and fancy rifle, so go Primaris with either of the bolt rifles. I personally use the Auto Bolt Rifle with Bane Bolts of Erixia.
Watch Master: You are paying an extra 40pts to reroll 2s (over the captain that lets you reroll 1s). Not worth it unless you bring a lot of deathwatch.
Chaplain Dreadnought: Probably one the best models in the game, but good luck finding one as forgeworld stopped making them. Kitbashes seem to be accept as long as you copy the giant wings.
Chaplain: Primaris is the better option, but you aren't running enough space marine melee to want him
My personal advice is either the Primaris Watch Captain or the OldMarine watch captain with shield and jump pack. The Primaris will sit next to your hellblasters and shoot, while the Oldmarine would jump into battle against something big that need slaying.
Weazel wrote: So I'm contemplating on running a DW battalion alongside my AM detachment. My Troop choices are basically three squads with 5 intercessors, 3-4 hellblasters, and an inceptor per squad. Does this sound like a reasonable loadout?
Watch Master: You are paying an extra 40pts to reroll 2s (over the captain that lets you reroll 1s). Not worth it unless you bring a lot of deathwatch.
Chaplain Dreadnought: Probably one the best models in the game, but good luck finding one as forgeworld stopped making them. Kitbashes seem to be accept as long as you copy the giant wings.
Chaplain: Primaris is the better option, but you aren't running enough space marine melee to want him
My personal advice is either the Primaris Watch Captain or the OldMarine watch captain with shield and jump pack. The Primaris will sit next to your hellblasters and shoot, while the Oldmarine would jump into battle against something big that need slaying.
Highly disagree about watch master, it improves your damage output by 16% for 28 points, so if you have more than 150 points of shooting he’s worth it, aswell as improving overwatch by 83 %, the only argument against is the lack of jump pack
Weazel wrote: So I'm contemplating on running a DW battalion alongside my AM detachment. My Troop choices are basically three squads with 5 intercessors, 3-4 hellblasters, and an inceptor per squad. Does this sound like a reasonable loadout?
I'm curious about the HQ choices though. A Watch Master seems a great choice for all them rerolls but I'd like to keep the detachment fully Primaris. I guess I could proxy a Primaris Captain as a watch master though? What about a Librarian? I am not sold on SM spells but I guess that deny roll would be nice? What spells would you recommend?
I'm a primaris player first and foremost, but some HQs are better as Primaris and some are better as 'babymarines':
Librarian: No invul and attracts fire like hell. The oldmarine version can at least take a decent weapon and is short enough to hide behind your intercessors.
Watch Captain: You want the extra wound and fancy rifle, so go Primaris with either of the bolt rifles. I personally use the Auto Bolt Rifle with Bane Bolts of Erixia.
Watch Master: You are paying an extra 40pts to reroll 2s (over the captain that lets you reroll 1s). Not worth it unless you bring a lot of deathwatch.
Chaplain Dreadnought: Probably one the best models in the game, but good luck finding one as forgeworld stopped making them. Kitbashes seem to be accept as long as you copy the giant wings.
Chaplain: Primaris is the better option, but you aren't running enough space marine melee to want him
My personal advice is either the Primaris Watch Captain or the OldMarine watch captain with shield and jump pack. The Primaris will sit next to your hellblasters and shoot, while the Oldmarine would jump into battle against something big that need slaying.
The Bane Bolts are terrible in any weapon that's not a Storm Bolter and Guardian Spear, and you forgot the other things for the Watch Master you're paying for like the Spear, 2+ save, and cheaper access to Adaptive Tactics.
Watch Master is an auto include for me. The full-rerolls is an amazing effect as well as access to the clavis, relic and stratagem to really hurt vehicle by both the -1 to hit and also the mortal wound output. Stack on top of that the anti-vehicle special ammo and homeboy can dish out a very reliable 3d3 mortal wounds to vehicles. He is a massive boon as well for hellblasters firing at a -1 because he can salvage 1s and 2s both of which will kill you.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: Watch Master is an auto include for me. The full-rerolls is an amazing effect as well as access to the clavis, relic and stratagem to really hurt vehicle by both the -1 to hit and also the mortal wound output. Stack on top of that the anti-vehicle special ammo and homeboy can dish out a very reliable 3d3 mortal wounds to vehicles. He is a massive boon as well for hellblasters firing at a -1 because he can salvage 1s and 2s both of which will kill you.
This. I regularly give him the castellan of the black vault trait and the time of ectoclades. Castellan makes his spear awesome at shooting and cc. I teleport him with a SB/SS vet squad with 4 frag cannons and kill what needs killing.
Weazel wrote: So I'm contemplating on running a DW battalion alongside my AM detachment. My Troop choices are basically three squads with 5 intercessors, 3-4 hellblasters, and an inceptor per squad. Does this sound like a reasonable loadout?
I'm curious about the HQ choices though. A Watch Master seems a great choice for all them rerolls but I'd like to keep the detachment fully Primaris. I guess I could proxy a Primaris Captain as a watch master though? What about a Librarian? I am not sold on SM spells but I guess that deny roll would be nice? What spells would you recommend?
I'm a primaris player first and foremost, but some HQs are better as Primaris and some are better as 'babymarines':
Librarian: No invul and attracts fire like hell. The oldmarine version can at least take a decent weapon and is short enough to hide behind your intercessors.
Watch Captain: You want the extra wound and fancy rifle, so go Primaris with either of the bolt rifles. I personally use the Auto Bolt Rifle with Bane Bolts of Erixia.
Watch Master: You are paying an extra 40pts to reroll 2s (over the captain that lets you reroll 1s). Not worth it unless you bring a lot of deathwatch.
Chaplain Dreadnought: Probably one the best models in the game, but good luck finding one as forgeworld stopped making them. Kitbashes seem to be accept as long as you copy the giant wings.
Chaplain: Primaris is the better option, but you aren't running enough space marine melee to want him
My personal advice is either the Primaris Watch Captain or the OldMarine watch captain with shield and jump pack. The Primaris will sit next to your hellblasters and shoot, while the Oldmarine would jump into battle against something big that need slaying.
The Bane Bolts are terrible in any weapon that's not a Storm Bolter and Guardian Spear, and you forgot the other things for the Watch Master you're paying for like the Spear, 2+ save, and cheaper access to Adaptive Tactics.
If the Watch Captain is sitting next to the hellblasters than the only time those close combat stuff is going to matter is when you are losing badly. Unless you dedicate the jump captain for the re-rolls of 1 - but why would you?
Primaris captain has a bolt weapon and a power weapon, same as a Watch Master. Our group would probably allow a proxy. I really don't want to mix in any minimarines. But good to know that a captain is a reasonable choice as well.
In the list I'm thinking about I'm going to have 14 cp to start with. I don't know anything about DW stratagems yet but at that starting level would you go AMcp battery as a warlord or make the captain/watchmaster your warlord instead?
Watchmaster's effect on overwatch is golden. You're running a lot of dakka, and that means doubling your overwatch can have a big impact on the game. Watchmaster is our best HQ unit, hands down. I also quite like running him with clavis to drop 2d3 mortal wounds on vehicles in CC, alongside his decent weapon.
I will never run a Deathwatch list without a Watchmaster, unless I am playing Kill Team. Other than that though I go by two things when choosing between Primaris or Old Marine. 1) Do I need/want a Jump Pack or 2) Do I need to save points. If the answer to both is no then I go the Primaris version. My Normal list is 4 HQ's with a Watch Master, Watch Captain with Jump Pack and TH/SS, and a regular Librarian because I need the points.
Captain Garius wrote: I will never run a Deathwatch list without a Watchmaster, unless I am playing Kill Team. Other than that though I go by two things when choosing between Primaris or Old Marine. 1) Do I need/want a Jump Pack or 2) Do I need to save points. If the answer to both is no then I go the Primaris version. My Normal list is 4 HQ's with a Watch Master, Watch Captain with Jump Pack and TH/SS, and a regular Librarian because I need the points.
Yep, Watchmaster is ace.
TH/SB jump pack captain is awesome, as well.
And even though it's such a massive cost and the delivery methods are...less than ideal, I absolutely love the combi-melta/meltafist Terminator Captain. I can't get enough of that guy. Not the most competitive, but man if melta ever regains its lethality for its cost...
Honestly, other than Artemis being way too expensive for what he brings and Chaplains of all shapes and sizes being pretty terrible, I think every other HQ option available to Deathwatch is pretty great.
I have a Cataphractii Captain with Chainfist Combi-melta that I want to cut the chain part off and convert to a melta-fist to try him out. Whenever I build my lists I am usually either like 10 points over, or else I have like 30-40 points to spare. So I end up having to rework a bunch of stuff to get things right.
I have a feeling that DW are going to be a strong army post-FAQ. It's quite likely that the Castallan is going to be nerfed, and so with it IKs, who are a bit of a problem for us atm.
Orks are going to rise, and there's no better target for our SIA than greenskins (okay, Daemon Princes, but you know what I mean). We're one of the only armies that can turn hordes into red paste.
What do you think, fellow watchmasters? How far are DW from being a top-table army?
grouchoben wrote: I have a feeling that DW are going to be a strong army post-FAQ. It's quite likely that the Castallan is going to be nerfed, and so with it IKs, who are a bit of a problem for us atm.
Orks are going to rise, and there's no better target for our SIA than greenskins (okay, Daemon Princes, but you know what I mean). We're one of the only armies that can turn hordes into red paste.
What do you think, fellow watchmasters? How far are DW from being a top-table army?
I think it's safe to say that the Loyal 32 will be going away. Sure, a Guard battalion still provides top tier board control, but when it isn't a massive force multiplier through CP support, is it going to be as common? We shall see. After all, 200 points of Vets will paste those guard squads verrrrrrry quickly, and a reduction in CP resources will reduce the lethality of the opponent's other detachments. For me, it all starts with the CP farm issue, and if less forces are committing to that style and begin branching out to be more resilient (a basic benefit of the Guard batt), then DW has the flexibility to not be majorly impacted by this.
One of the other big DW challenges has been anti-tank, but its more specific than that. For a force with access to the Corvus and Land Raiders, this honestly shouldn't be a problem, but it's more of a lack of access to cost effective anti-tank than one of access to options in general. This should hopefully be addressed via Land Raider/Repulsor/Corvus point or rule adjustments.
Marine durability is still an issue, but Deathwatch are much more lethal, making that less of a concern.
Bonus unpopular opinion:
Spoiler:
The stormbolter/chainsword combo should never have become what it is for DW today. It's not even part of the kit. Boltgun and power sword is, though. Would love if THAT was the default loadout, but probably outside the realm of an FAQ to fix...
Martel732 wrote:DW can't kill any vehicle efficiently. As a result, they're always going to need soup help.
Martel732 wrote:Corvus and Land Raiders are both junk.
DW are lethal, but give up points VERY quicky. I haven't lost to them yet in 8th with BA or BA/IG soup. They're just too easy to knock off objectives.
Hot takes as usual, Marty
An errata adjusting the Land Raider by points or otherwise (or the Corvus) isn't unrealistic, though probably unlikely. Post-FAQ, the Loyal 32 won't be a requirement for Imperium (DW included), which frees up points for AT options elsewhere. Wouldn't it be great if they could just go internal for that?
Also, how much of that lethality is boosted by the silly stormbolter build. Freakin' hate that this is a thing (Yes I'm uber salty because of my stupid inability to win any ebay bid for stormbolter bits).
I don't use the loyal 32 exactly. I bolt on a couple of russes, couple of primaris psykers, and a repair idiot for the russes. This helps both BA and DW immensely. Sometimes you just need bodies to throw into the gears to slow X down. You dont' want those bodies to be BA, much less DW. The Russ is so much better than any marine vehicle, it's a bit nauseating.
DW are extremely effective, but amplify an already glaring weakness with marines. I've moved away from using the vets and use primaris exclusively in order to try to make up some durability.
Of of curiosity, has anyone here beat Drukhari with DW, or at least, not instantly lost in a hail of dissy cannons?
Corvus and landraiders both need price cuts badly. I guess DW can bring lascannon ven dreads.
Martel732 wrote: I don't use the loyal 32 exactly. I bolt on a couple of russes, couple of primaris psykers, and a repair idiot for the russes. This helps both BA and DW immensely. Sometimes you just need bodies to throw into the gears to slow X down. You dont' want those bodies to be BA, much less DW. The Russ is so much better than any marine vehicle, it's a bit nauseating.
DW are extremely effective, but amplify an already glaring weakness with marines. I've moved away from using the vets and use primaris exclusively in order to try to make up some durability.
Of of curiosity, has anyone here beat Drukhari with DW, or at least, not instantly lost in a hail of dissy cannons?
Corvus and landraiders both need price cuts badly. I guess DW can bring lascannon ven dreads.
Playing the wrong marines man - should be playing space wolves. -2 to hit flyers with stratagem - 9 d6 damage shots for less than a Repulsor. LOL. Also with a stratagem to ignore negative to hit penalties LOL.
Martel732 wrote: I don't use the loyal 32 exactly. I bolt on a couple of russes, couple of primaris psykers, and a repair idiot for the russes. This helps both BA and DW immensely. Sometimes you just need bodies to throw into the gears to slow X down. You dont' want those bodies to be BA, much less DW. The Russ is so much better than any marine vehicle, it's a bit nauseating.
DW are extremely effective, but amplify an already glaring weakness with marines. I've moved away from using the vets and use primaris exclusively in order to try to make up some durability.
Of of curiosity, has anyone here beat Drukhari with DW, or at least, not instantly lost in a hail of dissy cannons?
Corvus and landraiders both need price cuts badly. I guess DW can bring lascannon ven dreads.
Playing the wrong marines man - should be playing space wolves. -2 to hit flyers with stratagem - 9 d6 damage shots for less than a Repulsor. LOL. Also with a stratagem to ignore negative to hit penalties LOL.
I hate the SW and everything about them. I will never own a SW model and they are at the top of my "squat" list. If I could incinerate every SW model, I'd be temporarily happy with the game.
Martel732 wrote: I don't use the loyal 32 exactly. I bolt on a couple of russes, couple of primaris psykers, and a repair idiot for the russes. This helps both BA and DW immensely. Sometimes you just need bodies to throw into the gears to slow X down. You dont' want those bodies to be BA, much less DW. The Russ is so much better than any marine vehicle, it's a bit nauseating.
DW are extremely effective, but amplify an already glaring weakness with marines. I've moved away from using the vets and use primaris exclusively in order to try to make up some durability.
Of of curiosity, has anyone here beat Drukhari with DW, or at least, not instantly lost in a hail of dissy cannons?
Corvus and landraiders both need price cuts badly. I guess DW can bring lascannon ven dreads.
Playing the wrong marines man - should be playing space wolves. -2 to hit flyers with stratagem - 9 d6 damage shots for less than a Repulsor. LOL. Also with a stratagem to ignore negative to hit penalties LOL.
I hate the SW and everything about them. I will never own a SW model and they are at the top of my "squat" list. If I could incinerate every SW model, I'd be temporarily happy with the game.
I've teamed my "bloodwatch" with an errant and two helverins before. I actually won that game vs drukhari.
I use the errant as a poor mans castellano. They both have the same critical d6 roll for the main gun, but the errant isn't burning 3cp to live nor wasting points on meltaguns.
Martel732 wrote: I've teamed my "bloodwatch" with an errant and two helverins before. I actually won that game vs drukhari.
I use the errant as a poor mans castellano. They both have the same critical d6 roll for the main gun, but the errant isn't burning 3cp to live nor wasting points on meltaguns.
And yes watchmasters are total pimps.
Just go all out and get a crusader - can have same thermal lance plus an endless furry. Apparently this is a bad unit though per dakaa.
grouchoben wrote: I have a feeling that DW are going to be a strong army post-FAQ. It's quite likely that the Castallan is going to be nerfed, and so with it IKs, who are a bit of a problem for us atm.
Orks are going to rise, and there's no better target for our SIA than greenskins (okay, Daemon Princes, but you know what I mean). We're one of the only armies that can turn hordes into red paste.
What do you think, fellow watchmasters? How far are DW from being a top-table army?
Stem the Green Tide is a powerful tool against newer Ork players, who often focus on a single giant mob that must makes its charge as early as possible. Reducing their charge ranges is worth every CP in that case. We also are one of the few factions that can stand up to them in melee, with everything being T4 or T5. The redemptor also likes to shoot up Orks.
The counterpoint is that we don't like to get bound up in melee and that frag cannons can be hurt by the extra long charge ranges of Waagghh'd up orks. We also don't have a great solution for their ability to spam dreadnoughts - its kinda funny that the solution to Hellblaster spam can be fielding a dozen dreadnought class plasma-soakers.
Marmatag wrote: Deathwatch are very strong, but they require some skill to play right.
Things you should consider:
1. Xiphons. Forgeworld flyers that have solid missiles
2. Helverins.
Agreed, My xiphon is basically stapled to my DW lists. With a jump cap you can guarantee it one turn with rerolls, which I normally trigger the doctrine for. It also makes an insanely good decapitation unit, where its missiles really come into their own. Placing it late I can often put it out of range of a chunk of guns, run it across the face of my opponent for the captain bubble, then 90˚ to cut in and leave their warlord/high value character as its nearest target. My Xiphon has killed Abaddon, Rowboat, Kharne, and Typhus in the last month. The pilot deserves a goddam raise.
I also crutch pretty hard on my DSing SCA-Levi and DSing Hellblasters. Between these three I can put damage on a lot of targets. So yeah, I think a few well chosen FW units makes DW come alive as a faction. Without them I don't think they can offer enough AT to compete. I just assume that discussions of faction strengths includes FW in it now, as I'm lucky and I've never been to a competition or played a player who have a problem with FW.
(And Helverins too, agreed. I won a local tournament last month with a Gallant, 2 Helverins and a Xiphon in my list.)
Automatically Appended Next Post: I hear you , but I love Hellblasters for selectively murdering something, having dropped down into cover/LOS blocked positions: they make a part of the board asymmetric really quick. If your terrain lets you do this, they can do some nasty damage. Playing on planet bowling ball they get shredded the turn they drop, every time.
Martel732 wrote:Corvus and Land Raiders are both junk.
Martel732 wrote:I hate the SW and everything about them. I will never own a SW model and they are at the top of my "squat" list. If I could incinerate every SW model, I'd be temporarily happy with the game.
Martel732 wrote:I don't like hellblasters at all, even with access to DS. The Xiphon is much better, imo.
Martel732 wrote:Don't care for them, either.
Might be worth just posting what you do like - would definitely take up less space than this
Regarding the Hellblaster vs Plasma Inceptor discussion, it highlights the weird situation we're in for 8th edition. Things like Land Raiders are just not durable enough against weapons they used to shrug off, like plasma, so for their points they aren't worth it. Which is a total bummer because they're cool, flavourful models for DW. They're also one of the only platforms DW can turn to with las cannons for traditional vehicle hunting work, but they aren't anywhere close to cost effective because of that durability issue.
But at the same time we now get to consider plasma a solution for tanks, so it kind of cuts both ways.
grouchoben wrote: Not stormbolter/chainsword vets? They die quick but 210pts buys you a bucket of sia dakka, a few 3++'s, can deepstrike, and make 32 attacks in CC too.
Yeah deepstriking vets can be a very strong unit. I've not been able to try them out yet, but I plan to soon. The amount of dakka they put out combined with their 3+ Invulns and decent CQC ability they are no joke. Very solid anti infantry and even passable anti vehicle with stratagems and the like.
grouchoben wrote: Not stormbolter/chainsword vets? They die quick but 210pts buys you a bucket of sia dakka, a few 3++'s, can deepstrike, and make 32 attacks in CC too.
Too fragile for me. Lots of psykers in my meta, and mortal wounds eat these kinds of squads alive.
It's tough to fit everything in, but I've still been trying to make a way to get in lots of Deathwatch troops, the 32, and then some Scouts + something for tanks.
Speaking of Scouts, isn't anyone else annoyed they're not an option? They could've easily just given a whole squad an additional to movement or charge or something and then they could've been a FA choice or something.
It doesn’t make sense for scouts to be in DW as they are space marines in training - DW recruits veteran marines from other chapters. Just ally in a scout batallion if necessary
C4790M wrote: It doesn’t make sense for scouts to be in DW as they are space marines in training - DW recruits veteran marines from other chapters. Just ally in a scout batallion if necessary
They use Scout armor for Infiltration and stuff. It happens in the RPG and everything.
