Eldarain wrote: Is there a good source of infantry Storm Bolters?
Not really. The Sternguard box comes with two, but they're sold out on every bitz website I've visited so far. The space marine commander box comes with one, I believe. I might just pick up a box of SG to bring me up to four SB's and have a ton of bitz to make my intercessors look less bland.
Okay, I skimmed the last few pages. I loved Deathwatch since the metal upgrade kit was released but skipped the 7th edition release, because I didn't like the game system.
However, I generally like 8th.
But I'm not sure if I want to play Deathwatch painted Codex: Space Marines or Codex: Deathwatch.
How do I go about including Contemptors, Deredeos or Leviathans in a Deathwatch army in Matched Play? Do they get special rules from Deathwatch or do I include them as <CHAPTER> units?
Also if someone could give me some hints how to build an army for them?
I have the Primaris stuff from Dark Imperium plus Librarian and Chaplain and would like to include as much as possible from them. The more Primaris the better.
But I also have a box full of unassambled Deathwatch stuff: 15 Veterans, 10 Vanguards, Ven Dread, Artemis, Watch Master, Termi Librarian.
Hi Hanskrampf, I'm new to DW but I've been playing Primaris marines since 8th dropped. To answer your questions:
You're timing is great - DW is now the best Primaris faction available. Definitely go full DW when modelling & painting imo.
You can use FW dreads in DW, such as the Deredeo, with no problem. It was addressed in a FWFAQ recently.
The Dark Imperiums stuff will need you to be handy with a knife, as you're going to have to cut off shoulderpads for the DW versions.
DW Primaris killteams are the new hotness, you'll be wanting at least 10 intecessors, 6 hellblasters, 2 inceptors and 2 aggressors I should think. You can't use the gravis captain unfortunately.
Personally I model all my marines on Primaris bodies now, so I'd use those boxes you have to mod your dark imperium guys, then buy a new box of intecessors, but I'm weird. I don't like mixed marines, they look a bit odd to me.
I snagged some points values from the preview on Miniwargaming. Grabbed everything I could, but some stuff was too vague for me to nail down completely.
All bolt weapons cost points. eg: Bolt Pistol 0 -> 1
Storm Bolters cost different for vehicles compared to infantry.
Frag Cannon: 30 -> 25
Shotgun: 5 -> 3
Also, what would be the best long range anti-vehicle for Deathwatch? No lascannons, but Missile Launchers with +1 to wound would behave as such, just with worse AP. Deathwatch might bring back the melta meta solely by necessity.
Eldarain wrote: Is there a good source of infantry Storm Bolters?
Not really. The Sternguard box comes with two, but they're sold out on every bitz website I've visited so far. The space marine commander box comes with one, I believe. I might just pick up a box of SG to bring me up to four SB's and have a ton of bitz to make my intercessors look less bland.
Eldarain wrote: Is there a good source of infantry Storm Bolters?
Not really. The Sternguard box comes with two, but they're sold out on every bitz website I've visited so far. The space marine commander box comes with one, I believe. I might just pick up a box of SG to bring me up to four SB's and have a ton of bitz to make my intercessors look less bland.
Grey Knights. Wrist mounted.
How many do they come with and which kit? Wrist mounted storm bolters seem fly as hell for Deathwatch.
Edit: Checked myself. Unless the GW webstore is lying to me, I count 8 storm bolters. Plus loads of power weapons and psychic hood looking chests.
Eldarain wrote: Is there a good source of infantry Storm Bolters?
Not really. The Sternguard box comes with two, but they're sold out on every bitz website I've visited so far. The space marine commander box comes with one, I believe. I might just pick up a box of SG to bring me up to four SB's and have a ton of bitz to make my intercessors look less bland.
Grey Knights. Wrist mounted.
How many do they come with and which kit? Wrist mounted storm bolters seem fly as hell for Deathwatch.
Edit: Checked myself. Unless the GW webstore is lying to me, I count 8 storm bolters. Plus loads of power weapons and psychic hood looking chests.
I never bought the 10 Strike Squad box, but the 5 Strike Squad box came with 5 Storm Bolters so I'd imagine the 10 comes with 10. Every GK Infantry gets one as a minimum mandatory.
Eldarain wrote: Is there a good source of infantry Storm Bolters?
As others have said, the Sternguard kit is the best one. I was quick so I was able to nab 10 of them off ebay, though I saw a couple more this morning. Other kits that have them would be the commander and devastator kit. There are also some blood angel kits that have some and although you may not want all of your guys to have blood angels guns, you could easily just make some of your vets blood angels to make them make sense (or file off the iconography) to bolster your storm bolter numbers.
They fit on the deathwatch arms very well when you cut at the wrist. Here are the first 2 I did.
Eldarain wrote: Is there a good source of infantry Storm Bolters?
As others have said, the Sternguard kit is the best one. I was quick so I was able to nab 10 of them off ebay, though I saw a couple more this morning. Other kits that have them would be the commander and devastator kit. There are also some blood angel kits that have some and although you may not want all of your guys to have blood angels guns, you could easily just make some of your vets blood angels to make them make sense (or file off the iconography) to bolster your storm bolter numbers.
They fit on the deathwatch arms very well when you cut at the wrist. Here are the first 2 I did.
Spoiler:
Those are looking pretty nice!
Another thing I realized is I no longer have to say "That model looks really cool but too bad I don't run X chapter, and it has too much iconography for me." The bitz bin is mine for ransacking.
Terminators are also a good source of stormbolters. Just need to replace the terminator sized glove. I like the space wolf ones, they're fancier looking with drum mags.
McGibs wrote: Terminators are also a good source of stormbolters. Just need to replace the terminator sized glove. I like the space wolf ones, they're fancier looking with drum mags.
Terminators in general seem like they're going to actually work for Deathwatch. Deep striking storm bolters with SIA and 2+/5++ alongside maybe two cyclone missiles and a heavy flamer to keep chargers back. Since you can deep strike it'll be somewhat easy to keep them away from any guns that could pose a real threat to them, and even if you lose a few to an immense volley of fire it's not like they won't do some damage. Something really worth testing.
I also think Drop Pods might make a comeback for Deathwatch. Kill Team Veterans are the only unit marines will have that can really pack enough of a punch to convince players to bring 9+Captain and drop them into rapid fire range. 7 combi-plasmas - which can fire hellfire or kraken bolts - mixed with 2 frag cannons will absolutely obliterate everything they drop next to.
Eldarain wrote: Is there a good source of infantry Storm Bolters?
Ebay. Just got 20 for like $10.
Damn, I've been checking the past three days and can only find them in onesies and twosies with ridiculous shipping tacked on. Was it one of the major bitz retailers or what?
McGibs wrote: Terminators are also a good source of stormbolters. Just need to replace the terminator sized glove. I like the space wolf ones, they're fancier looking with drum mags.
Terminators in general seem like they're going to actually work for Deathwatch. Deep striking storm bolters with SIA and 2+/5++ alongside maybe two cyclone missiles and a heavy flamer to keep chargers back. Since you can deep strike it'll be somewhat easy to keep them away from any guns that could pose a real threat to them, and even if you lose a few to an immense volley of fire it's not like they won't do some damage. Something really worth testing.
I also think Drop Pods might make a comeback for Deathwatch. Kill Team Veterans are the only unit marines will have that can really pack enough of a punch to convince players to bring 9+Captain and drop them into rapid fire range. 7 combi-plasmas - which can fire hellfire or kraken bolts - mixed with 2 frag cannons will absolutely obliterate everything they drop next to.
I think drop pods are still trash. I'd rather put the squad in a rhino because at least the rhino can do stuff on its own.
McGibs wrote: Terminators are also a good source of stormbolters. Just need to replace the terminator sized glove. I like the space wolf ones, they're fancier looking with drum mags.
Terminators in general seem like they're going to actually work for Deathwatch. Deep striking storm bolters with SIA and 2+/5++ alongside maybe two cyclone missiles and a heavy flamer to keep chargers back. Since you can deep strike it'll be somewhat easy to keep them away from any guns that could pose a real threat to them, and even if you lose a few to an immense volley of fire it's not like they won't do some damage. Something really worth testing.
I also think Drop Pods might make a comeback for Deathwatch. Kill Team Veterans are the only unit marines will have that can really pack enough of a punch to convince players to bring 9+Captain and drop them into rapid fire range. 7 combi-plasmas - which can fire hellfire or kraken bolts - mixed with 2 frag cannons will absolutely obliterate everything they drop next to.
Well, the standard marine has a durability problem and a damage output problem. SIA already fixed the damage problem, it was just too limited and on still too costly models. Giving it to Primaris and storm bolters really helped viability of everything marine in a first strike. Dunno about the Drop pod though, why pay 90 points when you can use the usual 1/3CP teleportarium stratagem to deepstrike infrantry and dreads? Depending on how much CP battery you bring, it should be more cost effective. 2 kill teams fully kitted and a jump pack captain, o a Leviathan dread and a KT should be fun. Especially the leviathan with the rerolls 1 to wounds.
I don't think drop pods will do Deathwatch a whole lot of good. I've just made a captain with a jetpack. He can deepstike in himself and the I'd use the beacon and stratagems to deepstrike the rest.
Drop Pods can get around a Eldar shooting at deep strikers entering play. They will have to shoot the pod and not the unit coming out of the pod according to the new FAQ.
I’m looking to solve both the DW durability issue and T8 problem by taking 4 units of DW with 2 frag cannons each inside twin-lascannon Razorbacks. I want to put a couple of Watch Masters with them and create a mobile firebase that is both anti-tank and anti-horde. I figure I can reduce my drops while protecting my fragile DW units at the same time.
I’m thinking of taking two 5-man biker units with an extra stormbolter. That leaves 438pts left. Usually I would want a big distraction-fex at this point to draw a ton of attention and leave the rest of the army alone. An Imperial Knight would be perfect, but costs to much. It would need to be a Crusader in order to be a threat from turn 1.
Maybe I can exchange one of the 4 Razorbacks for a Land Raider Achilles. This can serve as a transport for one of gen frag cannon squads and also as the distraction-fex the army needs.
Otherwise I can stick with the 4 Razorbacks and two squads of bikers and spend 438 on a deep strike/drop unit and one more thing.
McGibs wrote: Terminators are also a good source of stormbolters. Just need to replace the terminator sized glove. I like the space wolf ones, they're fancier looking with drum mags.
Terminators in general seem like they're going to actually work for Deathwatch. Deep striking storm bolters with SIA and 2+/5++ alongside maybe two cyclone missiles and a heavy flamer to keep chargers back. Since you can deep strike it'll be somewhat easy to keep them away from any guns that could pose a real threat to them, and even if you lose a few to an immense volley of fire it's not like they won't do some damage. Something really worth testing.
I also think Drop Pods might make a comeback for Deathwatch. Kill Team Veterans are the only unit marines will have that can really pack enough of a punch to convince players to bring 9+Captain and drop them into rapid fire range. 7 combi-plasmas - which can fire hellfire or kraken bolts - mixed with 2 frag cannons will absolutely obliterate everything they drop next to.
Don't forget that DW Termies can get Meltaguns attached to their Power Fists, unless the codex has changed that. I'm thinking a 5 man squad with 2 Termies with Storm Bolters, Power Fists with Meltaguns, 1 with a TH+SS to soak up high AP shots, 1 with a Storm Bolter, Power Fist with Meltagun, Cyclone Missile Launcher, and 1 with an Assault Cannon, Power Fist with Meltagun could do some damage. Deep strike with a Watch Captain for those sweet rerolls. Expensive, but a hell of a threat to any vehicle you want off the board.
Not sure about drop pods, but with the Beacon Angelis you can give it to a Watch Master, deep strike him with the Teleportarium stratagem, and then use the Beacon Angelis to move 10 Hellblasters within Rapid Fire range near him. I reckon that's quite a bit more firepower than a Kill Team
Eldarain wrote: Is there a good source of infantry Storm Bolters?
Ebay. Just got 20 for like $10.
Damn, I've been checking the past three days and can only find them in onesies and twosies with ridiculous shipping tacked on. Was it one of the major bitz retailers or what?
They will be scarce for a while, but it will ease up. I bought mine from a no-name seller. Just search for Storm Bolters on newly listed and limit to Buy It Now, I have seen others come up.
McGibs wrote: Terminators are also a good source of stormbolters. Just need to replace the terminator sized glove. I like the space wolf ones, they're fancier looking with drum mags.
Terminators in general seem like they're going to actually work for Deathwatch. Deep striking storm bolters with SIA and 2+/5++ alongside maybe two cyclone missiles and a heavy flamer to keep chargers back. Since you can deep strike it'll be somewhat easy to keep them away from any guns that could pose a real threat to them, and even if you lose a few to an immense volley of fire it's not like they won't do some damage. Something really worth testing.
I also think Drop Pods might make a comeback for Deathwatch. Kill Team Veterans are the only unit marines will have that can really pack enough of a punch to convince players to bring 9+Captain and drop them into rapid fire range. 7 combi-plasmas - which can fire hellfire or kraken bolts - mixed with 2 frag cannons will absolutely obliterate everything they drop next to.
Well, the standard marine has a durability problem and a damage output problem. SIA already fixed the damage problem, it was just too limited and on still too costly models. Giving it to Primaris and storm bolters really helped viability of everything marine in a first strike. Dunno about the Drop pod though, why pay 90 points when you can use the usual 1/3CP teleportarium stratagem to deepstrike infrantry and dreads? Depending on how much CP battery you bring, it should be more cost effective. 2 kill teams fully kitted and a jump pack captain, o a Leviathan dread and a KT should be fun. Especially the leviathan with the rerolls 1 to wounds.
The Teleportarium stratagem I'm going to personally use for Primaris models, since they can't fit in a drop pod, or a Dreadnought. Plus a drop pod gives you the possibility to drop more than one unit, since you can just slap HQs in it. Imagine a drop pod kill team and some HQs giving Rites of Battle and Might of Heroes to a Leviathan Dreadnought unloading with twin storm cannnons and fire support from the kill team.
McGibs wrote: Terminators are also a good source of stormbolters. Just need to replace the terminator sized glove. I like the space wolf ones, they're fancier looking with drum mags.
Terminators in general seem like they're going to actually work for Deathwatch. Deep striking storm bolters with SIA and 2+/5++ alongside maybe two cyclone missiles and a heavy flamer to keep chargers back. Since you can deep strike it'll be somewhat easy to keep them away from any guns that could pose a real threat to them, and even if you lose a few to an immense volley of fire it's not like they won't do some damage. Something really worth testing.
I also think Drop Pods might make a comeback for Deathwatch. Kill Team Veterans are the only unit marines will have that can really pack enough of a punch to convince players to bring 9+Captain and drop them into rapid fire range. 7 combi-plasmas - which can fire hellfire or kraken bolts - mixed with 2 frag cannons will absolutely obliterate everything they drop next to.
Well, the standard marine has a durability problem and a damage output problem. SIA already fixed the damage problem, it was just too limited and on still too costly models. Giving it to Primaris and storm bolters really helped viability of everything marine in a first strike. Dunno about the Drop pod though, why pay 90 points when you can use the usual 1/3CP teleportarium stratagem to deepstrike infrantry and dreads? Depending on how much CP battery you bring, it should be more cost effective. 2 kill teams fully kitted and a jump pack captain, o a Leviathan dread and a KT should be fun. Especially the leviathan with the rerolls 1 to wounds.
The Teleportarium stratagem I'm going to personally use for Primaris models, since they can't fit in a drop pod, or a Dreadnought. Plus a drop pod gives you the possibility to drop more than one unit, since you can just slap HQs in it. Imagine a drop pod kill team and some HQs giving Rites of Battle and Might of Heroes to a Leviathan Dreadnought unloading with twin storm cannnons and fire support from the kill team.
Drop Pods may have a much more practical advantage: denying charges. Drop it near a wall, create a point opponents need to go around.
How do the doors actually work in 8th? Are opponents allowed to charge over them, or are they considered part of the hull?
McGibs wrote: Terminators are also a good source of stormbolters. Just need to replace the terminator sized glove. I like the space wolf ones, they're fancier looking with drum mags.
Terminators in general seem like they're going to actually work for Deathwatch. Deep striking storm bolters with SIA and 2+/5++ alongside maybe two cyclone missiles and a heavy flamer to keep chargers back. Since you can deep strike it'll be somewhat easy to keep them away from any guns that could pose a real threat to them, and even if you lose a few to an immense volley of fire it's not like they won't do some damage. Something really worth testing.
I also think Drop Pods might make a comeback for Deathwatch. Kill Team Veterans are the only unit marines will have that can really pack enough of a punch to convince players to bring 9+Captain and drop them into rapid fire range. 7 combi-plasmas - which can fire hellfire or kraken bolts - mixed with 2 frag cannons will absolutely obliterate everything they drop next to.
Don't forget that DW Termies can get Meltaguns attached to their Power Fists, unless the codex has changed that. I'm thinking a 5 man squad with 2 Termies with Storm Bolters, Power Fists with Meltaguns, 1 with a TH+SS to soak up high AP shots, 1 with a Storm Bolter, Power Fist with Meltagun, Cyclone Missile Launcher, and 1 with an Assault Cannon, Power Fist with Meltagun could do some damage. Deep strike with a Watch Captain for those sweet rerolls. Expensive, but a hell of a threat to any vehicle you want off the board.
Not sure about drop pods, but with the Beacon Angelis you can give it to a Watch Master, deep strike him with the Teleportarium stratagem, and then use the Beacon Angelis to move 10 Hellblasters within Rapid Fire range near him. I reckon that's quite a bit more firepower than a Kill Team
Or why not both? Drop Pod with Kill Team and Watch Master and Librarian. Teleportarium your Dreadnought. Beacon Angelis another squad. Buff your dreadnought. Start shooting.
Edit: I'm also seeing that their Terminators can replace all of their power fists with other power weapons. Ideally to save loads of points while still having a strong choice, I'd want power axes, but I have no idea how to get those for Terminators. Any ideas?
McGibs wrote: Terminators are also a good source of stormbolters. Just need to replace the terminator sized glove. I like the space wolf ones, they're fancier looking with drum mags.
Terminators in general seem like they're going to actually work for Deathwatch. Deep striking storm bolters with SIA and 2+/5++ alongside maybe two cyclone missiles and a heavy flamer to keep chargers back. Since you can deep strike it'll be somewhat easy to keep them away from any guns that could pose a real threat to them, and even if you lose a few to an immense volley of fire it's not like they won't do some damage. Something really worth testing.
I also think Drop Pods might make a comeback for Deathwatch. Kill Team Veterans are the only unit marines will have that can really pack enough of a punch to convince players to bring 9+Captain and drop them into rapid fire range. 7 combi-plasmas - which can fire hellfire or kraken bolts - mixed with 2 frag cannons will absolutely obliterate everything they drop next to.
Don't forget that DW Termies can get Meltaguns attached to their Power Fists, unless the codex has changed that. I'm thinking a 5 man squad with 2 Termies with Storm Bolters, Power Fists with Meltaguns, 1 with a TH+SS to soak up high AP shots, 1 with a Storm Bolter, Power Fist with Meltagun, Cyclone Missile Launcher, and 1 with an Assault Cannon, Power Fist with Meltagun could do some damage. Deep strike with a Watch Captain for those sweet rerolls. Expensive, but a hell of a threat to any vehicle you want off the board.
Not sure about drop pods, but with the Beacon Angelis you can give it to a Watch Master, deep strike him with the Teleportarium stratagem, and then use the Beacon Angelis to move 10 Hellblasters within Rapid Fire range near him. I reckon that's quite a bit more firepower than a Kill Team
Or why not both? Drop Pod with Kill Team and Watch Master and Librarian. Teleportarium your Dreadnought. Beacon Angelis another squad. Buff your dreadnought. Start shooting.
Edit: I'm also seeing that their Terminators can replace all of their power fists with other power weapons. Ideally to save loads of points while still having a strong choice, I'd want power axes, but I have no idea how to get those for Terminators. Any ideas?
McGibs wrote: Terminators are also a good source of stormbolters. Just need to replace the terminator sized glove. I like the space wolf ones, they're fancier looking with drum mags.
Terminators in general seem like they're going to actually work for Deathwatch. Deep striking storm bolters with SIA and 2+/5++ alongside maybe two cyclone missiles and a heavy flamer to keep chargers back. Since you can deep strike it'll be somewhat easy to keep them away from any guns that could pose a real threat to them, and even if you lose a few to an immense volley of fire it's not like they won't do some damage. Something really worth testing.
I also think Drop Pods might make a comeback for Deathwatch. Kill Team Veterans are the only unit marines will have that can really pack enough of a punch to convince players to bring 9+Captain and drop them into rapid fire range. 7 combi-plasmas - which can fire hellfire or kraken bolts - mixed with 2 frag cannons will absolutely obliterate everything they drop next to.
Don't forget that DW Termies can get Meltaguns attached to their Power Fists, unless the codex has changed that. I'm thinking a 5 man squad with 2 Termies with Storm Bolters, Power Fists with Meltaguns, 1 with a TH+SS to soak up high AP shots, 1 with a Storm Bolter, Power Fist with Meltagun, Cyclone Missile Launcher, and 1 with an Assault Cannon, Power Fist with Meltagun could do some damage. Deep strike with a Watch Captain for those sweet rerolls. Expensive, but a hell of a threat to any vehicle you want off the board.
Not sure about drop pods, but with the Beacon Angelis you can give it to a Watch Master, deep strike him with the Teleportarium stratagem, and then use the Beacon Angelis to move 10 Hellblasters within Rapid Fire range near him. I reckon that's quite a bit more firepower than a Kill Team
Or why not both? Drop Pod with Kill Team and Watch Master and Librarian. Teleportarium your Dreadnought. Beacon Angelis another squad. Buff your dreadnought. Start shooting.
Edit: I'm also seeing that their Terminators can replace all of their power fists with other power weapons. Ideally to save loads of points while still having a strong choice, I'd want power axes, but I have no idea how to get those for Terminators. Any ideas?
Chaos Terminators come with 5 axes in a box and not everyone uses them. They have a scary face embellishment at the top of the haft that can be sanded or filled in with greenstuff, other than that they're pretty generic.
Chaos Terminator Storm Bolter arms might actually be the simplest way to get Storm Bolter arms right now. Chop off the blade at the front and sand down the pointy symbols and you have something to work with.
McGibs wrote: Terminators are also a good source of stormbolters. Just need to replace the terminator sized glove. I like the space wolf ones, they're fancier looking with drum mags.
Terminators in general seem like they're going to actually work for Deathwatch. Deep striking storm bolters with SIA and 2+/5++ alongside maybe two cyclone missiles and a heavy flamer to keep chargers back. Since you can deep strike it'll be somewhat easy to keep them away from any guns that could pose a real threat to them, and even if you lose a few to an immense volley of fire it's not like they won't do some damage. Something really worth testing.
I also think Drop Pods might make a comeback for Deathwatch. Kill Team Veterans are the only unit marines will have that can really pack enough of a punch to convince players to bring 9+Captain and drop them into rapid fire range. 7 combi-plasmas - which can fire hellfire or kraken bolts - mixed with 2 frag cannons will absolutely obliterate everything they drop next to.
Don't forget that DW Termies can get Meltaguns attached to their Power Fists, unless the codex has changed that. I'm thinking a 5 man squad with 2 Termies with Storm Bolters, Power Fists with Meltaguns, 1 with a TH+SS to soak up high AP shots, 1 with a Storm Bolter, Power Fist with Meltagun, Cyclone Missile Launcher, and 1 with an Assault Cannon, Power Fist with Meltagun could do some damage. Deep strike with a Watch Captain for those sweet rerolls. Expensive, but a hell of a threat to any vehicle you want off the board.
Not sure about drop pods, but with the Beacon Angelis you can give it to a Watch Master, deep strike him with the Teleportarium stratagem, and then use the Beacon Angelis to move 10 Hellblasters within Rapid Fire range near him. I reckon that's quite a bit more firepower than a Kill Team
Or why not both? Drop Pod with Kill Team and Watch Master and Librarian. Teleportarium your Dreadnought. Beacon Angelis another squad. Buff your dreadnought. Start shooting.
Edit: I'm also seeing that their Terminators can replace all of their power fists with other power weapons. Ideally to save loads of points while still having a strong choice, I'd want power axes, but I have no idea how to get those for Terminators. Any ideas?
Chaos Terminators come with 5 axes in a box and not everyone uses them. They have a scary face embellishment at the top of the haft that can be sanded or filled in with greenstuff, other than that they're pretty generic.
Chaos Terminator Storm Bolter arms might actually be the simplest way to get Storm Bolter arms right now. Chop off the blade at the front and sand down the pointy symbols and you have something to work with.
While that works, I'll honestly going to just commit to the wrist mounted Grey Knight bolters because they look so bloody cool.
If you want to knock out two birds with one stone, ForgeWorld has that Tartaros hand set that has 5 combi bolter right hand and 5 power axe left hands. You'd have to get left terminator arms from the deathwing kit or something though, but the combi bolters easily pass as stormbolters.
Also, the Breacher shields make for sweet storm shields for vets that are holding a stormbolters + shield. Just stick one of the larger Inquisition icons from the upgrade sprue on the shield and paint some scrawl that resembles the litany xenomortis on it.
So the deathwatch bikers look very solid now. For 27 points you get a veteran biker statline with a free chainsword. 27 points nets you a twin bolter with special issue ammunition on a zippy fast biker model with T5, 2 wounds 3+ and 3 attacks. Also if you want to splurge you can buy them power weapons as well. I think these fellas are the real stars here. They can be pretty decent fighters versus certain targets depending on their loadout and can provide pretty solid shooting especially in the 12-15 inch rage which they can very likely can into considering their movement of 14 inches.
They were already solid, just slightly overpriced. They're worth it for their SIA bikes alone, but 2 power weapon attacks is pretty good. 155pts for 5 w/ power swords is nice. I just wish GW still sold the kit, but I've found that they're still readily available from resellers for even more savings.
How are Vanguard Vets? Did they see a slight point drop too?
McGibs wrote: Terminators are also a good source of stormbolters. Just need to replace the terminator sized glove. I like the space wolf ones, they're fancier looking with drum mags.
Terminators in general seem like they're going to actually work for Deathwatch. Deep striking storm bolters with SIA and 2+/5++ alongside maybe two cyclone missiles and a heavy flamer to keep chargers back. Since you can deep strike it'll be somewhat easy to keep them away from any guns that could pose a real threat to them, and even if you lose a few to an immense volley of fire it's not like they won't do some damage. Something really worth testing.
I also think Drop Pods might make a comeback for Deathwatch. Kill Team Veterans are the only unit marines will have that can really pack enough of a punch to convince players to bring 9+Captain and drop them into rapid fire range. 7 combi-plasmas - which can fire hellfire or kraken bolts - mixed with 2 frag cannons will absolutely obliterate everything they drop next to.
Don't forget that DW Termies can get Meltaguns attached to their Power Fists, unless the codex has changed that. I'm thinking a 5 man squad with 2 Termies with Storm Bolters, Power Fists with Meltaguns, 1 with a TH+SS to soak up high AP shots, 1 with a Storm Bolter, Power Fist with Meltagun, Cyclone Missile Launcher, and 1 with an Assault Cannon, Power Fist with Meltagun could do some damage. Deep strike with a Watch Captain for those sweet rerolls. Expensive, but a hell of a threat to any vehicle you want off the board.
Not sure about drop pods, but with the Beacon Angelis you can give it to a Watch Master, deep strike him with the Teleportarium stratagem, and then use the Beacon Angelis to move 10 Hellblasters within Rapid Fire range near him. I reckon that's quite a bit more firepower than a Kill Team
Or why not both? Drop Pod with Kill Team and Watch Master and Librarian. Teleportarium your Dreadnought. Beacon Angelis another squad. Buff your dreadnought. Start shooting.
Edit: I'm also seeing that their Terminators can replace all of their power fists with other power weapons. Ideally to save loads of points while still having a strong choice, I'd want power axes, but I have no idea how to get those for Terminators. Any ideas?
Chaos Terminators come with 5 axes in a box and not everyone uses them. They have a scary face embellishment at the top of the haft that can be sanded or filled in with greenstuff, other than that they're pretty generic.
Chaos Terminator Storm Bolter arms might actually be the simplest way to get Storm Bolter arms right now. Chop off the blade at the front and sand down the pointy symbols and you have something to work with.
While that works, I'll honestly going to just commit to the wrist mounted Grey Knight bolters because they look so bloody cool.
Aren't they going to be weird though because A) you need hands, and B) all but one are pointed as if they're holding a two handed weapon.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: So the deathwatch bikers look very solid now. For 27 points you get a veteran biker statline with a free chainsword. 27 points nets you a twin bolter with special issue ammunition on a zippy fast biker model with T5, 2 wounds 3+ and 3 attacks. Also if you want to splurge you can buy them power weapons as well. I think these fellas are the real stars here. They can be pretty decent fighters versus certain targets depending on their loadout and can provide pretty solid shooting especially in the 12-15 inch rage which they can very likely can into considering their movement of 14 inches.
And the Sergeant can get a Storm Bolter, so that's even more SIA dakka. Yes I really do think the Bikers are looking mad strong. If Combat Squadding is allowed after the codex, you can take a 5 man of Veterans and get 4 bikes and a vanguard veteran. You'll slow the bikes down by a small tad, but you gain the ability to fall back and shoot, and the vanguard vet can supply some extra OOMF in melee if need be.
So, with all this talk about Deathwatch Terminators, how would you kit out a squad?
As background, I have a DWO box + 1 vet squad that I've been running as allies with my Admech and Vostroyan Guard. At the present moment I have them built to be one shooty squad (with a Storm Shield+Bolter, 2 regular bolters, 2 Frag Cannons) and one stabby squad (HTH because it looks boss, Shotgun+Storm shield, Powerfist+shotgun, Powersword+Boltgun, Chainsword+Boltgun). They're mostly a fluffy force, as you can tell, as I was limited by the DWO models and what I could convert them successfully to be holding. The rest of the detachment is just my DWO librarian and Chaplain.
What I do have though is a few extra space marine models kicking around who could possibly be ripe for some conversion to flesh out the army, from way back in the day (15+ years ago now) when I had a few space wolfs. Mostly the old 5th ed mono-pose black reach dudes, but a couple addons.
I have:
-One standard dread kit (so he's got missile launcher/twin las build, which I would think would be good)
-One predator, which I could turn into a Razorback or Rhino conceivably
-One box of the newer SW terminators, five monopose AOBR termies, and the terminators from Space Hulk, plus the one salamander dude from DWO
-One box of standard SM bikers plus biker dude from DWO
-One box of old standard jump pack space marines, plus the 2 DWO vets.
-20-30 odd basic space marines with various gear.
Seems like I could probably strip and repurpose a lot of these guys to make a useful Deathwatch force, but what would you guys advise for kill team setups? I think it's possible that some of my...youthfully exuberant modeling decisions might be handy here, as I've got a whole lot of power armored models with crazy special weapons and storm shields, because storm shields were awesome and I had to use all of them.
I think there's one extra element that the Veterans have over the Intercessors. It's small, but there:
Every single one of them can get a Chainsword in addition to their primary weapon. This means each marine is spitting some hot damage from range while also having 3 attacks per model (4 for the sergeant).
I think only time will tell which one is preferred. Competitively I know we'll only see 1 spammed, but I still don't think Veterans are 100% outclassed.
I'm thinking of starting a deathwatch army, really like the idea of small elite squads.
I can see that anti horde and meq and teq is nicely covered. But how do you deal with t7 and t8?
I'm thinking dreds will get blasted off the board? Do you guys run land raider etc to get Las cannons on the board?
Mortis dreads, Mortis contemptor, stormeagle, Deimos relic pred, deredeo dread.
The Mortis dread with quad las is the cheapest option for both $$$ and points for solid reliable AT. If you really need T8 then use Seige dreads with a twin lascannon (ironclad body and hammer with a venerable dread lascannon arm)
I'm thinking of starting a deathwatch army, really like the idea of small elite squads.
I can see that anti horde and meq and teq is nicely covered. But how do you deal with t7 and t8?
I'm thinking dreds will get blasted off the board? Do you guys run land raider etc to get Las cannons on the board?
Mortis dreads, Mortis contemptor, stormeagle, Deimos relic pred, deredeo dread.
The Mortis dread with quad las is the cheapest option for both $$$ and points for solid reliable AT. If you really need T8 then use Seige dreads with a twin lascannon (ironclad body and hammer with a venerable dread lascannon arm)
I'm thinking of starting a deathwatch army, really like the idea of small elite squads.
I can see that anti horde and meq and teq is nicely covered. But how do you deal with t7 and t8?
I'm thinking dreds will get blasted off the board? Do you guys run land raider etc to get Las cannons on the board?
Mortis dreads, Mortis contemptor, stormeagle, Deimos relic pred, deredeo dread.
The Mortis dread with quad las is the cheapest option for both $$$ and points for solid reliable AT. If you really need T8 then use Seige dreads with a twin lascannon (ironclad body and hammer with a venerable dread lascannon arm)
Wouldn't Razorbacks be a viable choice as well?
Depends if you're using the transport capacity or not. A twin las razor is ~120 a quad las Mortis dread is ~175 and gets mission tactics
I'm thinking of starting a deathwatch army, really like the idea of small elite squads.
I can see that anti horde and meq and teq is nicely covered. But how do you deal with t7 and t8?
I'm thinking dreds will get blasted off the board? Do you guys run land raider etc to get Las cannons on the board?
Deep striking dual cyclonic meltas/grab bombard Leviathan Dreadnaughts, when you absolutely, positively have to kill every tank on the board, accept no substitutes
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ok guys, new plan. Deep striking a chaplain dread and Leviathan at the same time followed by using the beacon angelus to summon a 10 man Primaris kill team (5 aggressors/5 intercessors) to his position as meatshields.
What would be the best load out for the chaplain dread? I'm thinking dual claws with HF to keep him cheapish.
As a non-deathwatch player, do you guys reckon this book will make a primaris foot list viable? Intercessors with a vastly better damage output and being able to tank for aggressors are two huge wins for me. I'm very tempted to try a bunch of units something along the lines of 5 intercessors, 1 aggressor and 1 hellblaster and just run them as line infantry
DoomMouse wrote: As a non-deathwatch player, do you guys reckon this book will make a primaris foot list viable? Intercessors with a vastly better damage output and being able to tank for aggressors are two huge wins for me. I'm very tempted to try a bunch of units something along the lines of 5 intercessors, 1 aggressor and 1 hellblaster and just run them as line infantry
I think they will be the best primaris force for sure. Being able to shield your valuable units is a big plus in addition to the fact that the intercessors are now both useful and worth killing. Will foot primaris be competitive? No I don't think so, but they will have gotten a solid power boost in this rather tame codex.
I'm thinking of starting a deathwatch army, really like the idea of small elite squads.
I can see that anti horde and meq and teq is nicely covered. But how do you deal with t7 and t8?
I'm thinking dreds will get blasted off the board? Do you guys run land raider etc to get Las cannons on the board?
Deep striking dual cyclonic meltas/grab bombard Leviathan Dreadnaughts, when you absolutely, positively have to kill every tank on the board, accept no substitutes
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ok guys, new plan. Deep striking a chaplain dread and Leviathan at the same time followed by using the beacon angelus to summon a 10 man Primaris kill team (5 aggressors/5 intercessors) to his position as meatshields.
What would be the best load out for the chaplain dread? I'm thinking dual claws with HF to keep him cheapish.
Why the full team? Combat squad out the aggressors, make it 2 flame storm/2 auto-bolt, then add a reiver for overwatch denial. Still an obsec troops unit and you don't waste the intercessors as wounds. Also your 'meatshield' aggro-bubble is now T5 majority.
saint_red wrote: Intercessors are used to tank wounds that otherwise would be going on your expensive Aggressors.
Don't have my rule books with me atm but doesn't the beacon require you to start the turn on the board? If so, the plan doesn't work anyway.
You could use a jump pack watch captain and just move + advance him into position though.
My understanding is the unit being beaconed needs to start on the board. IE you can't use a movement ability on a unit that came in from reserves. So the chaplain dread would come in, but the unit affected by the beacon was already in your deployment zone somewhere.
Also you got it right, the intercessors are absolutely there to soak the wounds. The mixed toughness works because at 50/50 the owner chooses. Therefore, everybody is T5 to the bitter end. In a perfect world, the enemy is unable to kill any/many aggressors and they will get to double shoot for standing still the following turn.
mrtomski wrote: Thanks for all the replies on the dealing with t8 question.
I like the look of those fw dreads, but before I go and spend an arm and a leg on fw are there any decent other options which are non-fw?
It's not too obvious to me, I mean we have the regular dreads which could have a dual Las and missile launcher, or Las razor backs.
How do we crack multiple russes or knights without fw? (If there is an answer!)
People might crucify me for this, but...heavy thunder hammers might not be total trash at the job? Pop one of the +1 wound strats and it's going to be wounding on 2s or 3s, rerolling 1s, and damage 6 on a 5+. Seems at least fun enough to toss a couple into a vanvet squad to handle a tank, and if you ever have them in range of a chaplain, they'll do serious work.
I'm thinking of starting a deathwatch army, really like the idea of small elite squads.
I can see that anti horde and meq and teq is nicely covered. But how do you deal with t7 and t8?
I'm thinking dreds will get blasted off the board? Do you guys run land raider etc to get Las cannons on the board?
Hellblasters spit some gross dakka if you do the math. They'll need a captain to keep them alive, and even then you can almost expect some to die, but 4 overcharged Hellblasters in rapid fire range with captain and reroll 1s to wound will do 10 wounds to T7 60% of the time and 8 wounds to T8 50% of the time. I would keep your Dreadnoughts around regardless, because you can't have too much dakka.
mrtomski wrote: Thanks for all the replies on the dealing with t8 question.
I like the look of those fw dreads, but before I go and spend an arm and a leg on fw are there any decent other options which are non-fw?
It's not too obvious to me, I mean we have the regular dreads which could have a dual Las and missile launcher, or Las razor backs.
How do we crack multiple russes or knights without fw? (If there is an answer!)
People might crucify me for this, but...heavy thunder hammers might not be total trash at the job? Pop one of the +1 wound strats and it's going to be wounding on 2s or 3s, rerolling 1s, and damage 6 on a 5+. Seems at least fun enough to toss a couple into a vanvet squad to handle a tank, and if you ever have them in range of a chaplain, they'll do serious work.
Oh damn, I didn't even think about doing 6 damage on a 5+. That's nutso. I still hope we get a points decrease because 30 points for a melee weapon makes me want to vomit.
It is rumored that we do not, and the hammer is unchanged in price at least. The only points decrease for a HTH is the 4-point body decrease on vets, sadly.
My big issue with the HTH has always been: Why does it not get the Onager Dunecrawler's 3 damage minimum? Why does a "heavy" thunder hammer not do at LEAST as much damage as a regular thunder hammer?
the_scotsman wrote: It is rumored that we do not, and the hammer is unchanged in price at least. The only points decrease for a HTH is the 4-point body decrease on vets, sadly.
My big issue with the HTH has always been: Why does it not get the Onager Dunecrawler's 3 damage minimum? Why does a "heavy" thunder hammer not do at LEAST as much damage as a regular thunder hammer?
My issue is also how it can't be given to the Black Shield in a kill team because that's the perfect guy to carry it - 3 attacks and heroic intervention.
the_scotsman wrote: It is rumored that we do not, and the hammer is unchanged in price at least. The only points decrease for a HTH is the 4-point body decrease on vets, sadly.
My big issue with the HTH has always been: Why does it not get the Onager Dunecrawler's 3 damage minimum? Why does a "heavy" thunder hammer not do at LEAST as much damage as a regular thunder hammer?
My issue is also how it can't be given to the Black Shield in a kill team because that's the perfect guy to carry it - 3 attacks and heroic intervention.
Yeah, they very clearly made it so it could only be given to 2A models - Vanvet sarge can't have one, DW vet sarge or blackshield can't have one.
It's a shame for that reason - regular TH outperforms it in the hands of a 3A model, and it costs DOUBLE the points...for a 5-point upgrade, I'd take plenty of swaghammers just because they're so dang cool and they synergize with me dumping my CP into a melee team. But at 30 points, oof. I can see them being good on that mixed KT where you take 3 bikes and 2 Vanvets, give the two vanvets swaghammers and let them go to town with their ability to fall back, shoot, and charge all in the same turn and majority T5, with the bikes providing cheap ablative wounds. I can also see taking a couple in a kill team you've got stashed in a rhino or a blackstar.
You have strats to deal out mortal wounds (have a sqd with MLs and a HB plus some stalker bolters in backfield). With the right Mission tactics you can reroll 1s to wound, plus use the strat to wound on a +1. With some focussed fire, I think you can take some big nasties down.
bullyboy wrote: You have strats to deal out mortal wounds (have a sqd with MLs and a HB plus some stalker bolters in backfield). With the right Mission tactics you can reroll 1s to wound, plus use the strat to wound on a +1. With some focussed fire, I think you can take some big nasties down.
To clarify a roll of 1 always fails. But +1 to wound while rerolling 1s to wound synergizes so well you'll almost never fail a wound roll. It's gonna be nasty.
Troop 4 Veterans (Heavy Weapons of some kind)
1 Sergeant
4 Bikers
1 Vanguard Veteran
Combat squad the four Vets and Sarge to stand back and be Devastators, basically, while the Bikers and VV rush forward, unloading 8-16 SIA shots.
I'm going to try 2 VV and 3 Bikes - TH/SS on the VVs. Basically a T5 squad that can charge one turn, fall back another and still shoot and charge again.
I think one of my squads is going to be 7 Vets, 1 Vet Sergeant, and 2 TH/SS Terminators to toss wounds on. AP-3? Throw it on the shield. 2D? Throw it on a rando. Both? Well... Don't play against Dhrukari.
10 vets with storm bolters in a teleportarium? 210pts for guaranteed 40 SIA shots seems reasonable to me! Could have durable primaris kill teams start on the board and a couple of these death-squads porting in to rinse some hordes?
Can watch captains have heavy thunder hammers? One of those with a jump pack would be good - or just one of them with a normal thunder hammer.
I can see a case for taking two battalions. One could have squads made up of 5 auto bolt rifle intercessors, with 4 aggressors and an inceptor. The other could be 5 rapid fire intercessors and either 5 hellblasters or 4 and an inceptor. Take a watch master, a couple of THJP captains and a librarian as your HQs. That would come to around 2k - actually probably a bit over.
The idea is to have T5 squads advancing forwards chucking dakka out while the rapid fire guys follow along with the heavier firepower. No vehicles but ~60 primaris bodies for the enemy to get through. You can beacon in a squad with hellblasters to one of the captains if you want. If you need to save points maybe make one of the units 5 barebones intercessors, or maybe swap the odd aggressor for a reiver.
Well, it took 3 days of searching on ebay, but I finally found enough Storm Bolters for 10 vets and 3 biker sergeants. Hope that'll be enough.
Doing some list building and I'm finding some problems getting solid anti tank into my lists without compromising anti infantry capabilities.
The dual cyclonic or dual grav Leviathan sounded great, but I cant get more than one into 1500 points. After the rapier tax to bring him along, he's eating up 20% of a 2k list and over 30% at 1500.
Thinking chaplain dreads with a LC might be an option. His character rule means he can sit back and snipe vehicles all day. 212 points, but I'm not seeing many cheaper AT options available. Contemptor Mortis is also looking good in that role with twice the firepower, but without the character protection.
RogueApiary wrote: The dual cyclonic or dual grav Leviathan sounded great, but I cant get more than one into 1500 points. After the rapier tax to bring him along, he's eating up 20% of a 2k list and over 30% at 1500.
Why do you need more than one double Grav Leviathan? Is it not enough to have one, plus whatever else you feel like deep striking or beacon'ing in along side it?
And what is the rapier tax you mention?
RogueApiary wrote: The dual cyclonic or dual grav Leviathan sounded great, but I cant get more than one into 1500 points. After the rapier tax to bring him along, he's eating up 20% of a 2k list and over 30% at 1500.
Why do you need more than one double Grav Leviathan? Is it not enough to have one, plus whatever else you feel like deep striking or beacon'ing in along side it?
And what is the rapier tax you mention?
I think he means Relic tax. He'd need another Heavy Support just to take a Leviathan. Really though until we hear otherwise, I'm operating under the assumption that maybe Deathwatch can't take Leviathans. I'm not really sure how it works with special chapters of Space Marines already.
Q: Are there any restrictions on which Chapter I can choose
when replacing the <Chapter> Faction keyword on datasheets
within this book?
A: Yes. You cannot choose for any of these units to be
from the Legion of the Damned or Grey Knights
Chapters. They can be from any other Chapter though,
including Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves
and Deathwatch.
You can definitely take Leviathans and have been able to for a while.
Q: Are there any restrictions on which Chapter I can choose
when replacing the <Chapter> Faction keyword on datasheets
within this book?
A: Yes. You cannot choose for any of these units to be
from the Legion of the Damned or Grey Knights
Chapters. They can be from any other Chapter though,
including Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves
and Deathwatch.
You can definitely take Leviathans and have been able to for a while.
Storm cannons are what I’ve got on my leviathan. 20 shots mean it’s good for shooting at pretty much anything.
Ap above -2 starts to suffer diminishing returns. So many targets are rocking invulnerable saves now. Make them take lots and lots of invulnerable saves. And obviously doing large amounts of damage per hit is often wasted against targets with just one or two wounds.
Range also matters. 18” is in charge range of far more stuff than 24”. A storm cannon leviathan doesn’t really need to deep strike, so it can be on the board killing stuff on turn one - which is vital.
Mandragola wrote: Storm cannons are what I’ve got on my leviathan. 20 shots mean it’s good for shooting at pretty much anything.
Ap above -2 starts to suffer diminishing returns. So many targets are rocking invulnerable saves now. Make them take lots and lots of invulnerable saves. And obviously doing large amounts of damage per hit is often wasted against targets with just one or two wounds.
Range also matters. 18” is in charge range of far more stuff than 24”. A storm cannon leviathan doesn’t really need to deep strike, so it can be on the board killing stuff on turn one - which is vital.
Normally, I agree storm cannons are the go to choice, but the ability to get into the 18" range with the grav bombards and cyclonic with teleportarium feels too good to pass up. I'm not having trouble including anti infantry elsewhere in the list, but getting AT that could reliably cripple a Knight seems solely to fall into the Leviathans domain.
RogueApiary wrote: The dual cyclonic or dual grav Leviathan sounded great, but I cant get more than one into 1500 points. After the rapier tax to bring him along, he's eating up 20% of a 2k list and over 30% at 1500.
Why do you need more than one double Grav Leviathan? Is it not enough to have one, plus whatever else you feel like deep striking or beacon'ing in along side it?
And what is the rapier tax you mention?
Two is one, one is none. A good list will remove or kill the Leviathan the turn after it comes down unless I manage to gut their AT capability with it. Rapier tax is the relic tax, but it pretty much has to be a rapier since there's not a lot of heavy support options in the DW, much less affordable ones.
That's part of the reason why I very much dislike putting that many points into the Leviathan. I just keep imagining all the other toys I could bring for the same cost.
Lemondish wrote: That's part of the reason why I very much dislike putting that many points into the Leviathan. I just keep imagining all the other toys I could bring for the same cost.
In its defense, T8 with 2+/4++ is going to be very hard to bring down. Doable in one turn? Totally. But that's going to be the entire enemy turn of shooting, psychic powers, and possibly assault just to bring down 1 model. And that 1 model being a total beast means you'll be spending less resources on the battlefield to keep it buffed. Might of Heroes and Teleportarium get a huge boost in value when you use it on a Leviathan compared to using it on its point equivalent of smaller models. If you don't want a big stick that's gonna draw lots of hate then don't take one, but I'm definitely considering it.
Lemondish wrote: That's part of the reason why I very much dislike putting that many points into the Leviathan. I just keep imagining all the other toys I could bring for the same cost.
Yes, but which of those toys can match 4D3 STR 9 AP-4 D6D shots? Keeping in mind the +1 to wound strats can only affect a single unit at a time.
2X Contemptor Mortis with twin Lascannons gives you 8 Str 9 AP -3 D6D shots without the relic req/slightly lower total points cost and is the only real solid AT alternative within the DW, I feel. But only half those shots can benefit from the doctrine Stratagems.
Going outside DW, 2x Cadian or Catachan Manticores could maybe fill in the AT role for a good bit cheaper, but they're significantly less durable and the BS 4 will struggle against Eldar.
Speaking of the Leviathan...I still hate soup lists on principle, but as for effectiveness, what do you think about doing something like this?
AM Battalion 5CPs
2x commander
3x infantry squad
~200pts
SM Batallion 5CPs (prob BA, but could be any)
2x Captain - hammer, jump pack
3x Scouts - 1+ heavy bolters here for Hellfire strat
~400pts
DW Battalion 5CPs
2x Watch Captain ~250pts
1x Leviathan ~310pts
1x Mortis Dread ~130pts (or any cheap heavy for relic req)
3x 5 Intercessor squads ~290pts
That leaves somewhere around 400-450 pts for primaris guys of choice to add to the intercessors. Call it 10, more if using Reivers.
That gives a ton of CPs, a bunch of troops on the board and CC characters, and some crazy good shooting when you come down if you deep strike the Leviathan and the 2 biggest DW squads and then use their various strats.
bort wrote: Speaking of the Leviathan...I still hate soup lists on principle, but as for effectiveness, what do you think about doing something like this?
AM Battalion 5CPs
2x commander
3x infantry squad
~200pts
SM Batallion 5CPs (prob BA, but could be any)
2x Captain - hammer, jump pack
3x Scouts - 1+ heavy bolters here for Hellfire strat
~400pts
DW Battalion 5CPs
2x Watch Captain ~250pts
1x Leviathan ~310pts
1x Mortis Dread ~130pts (or any cheap heavy for relic req)
3x 5 Intercessor squads ~290pts
That leaves somewhere around 400-450 pts for primaris guys of choice to add to the intercessors. Call it 10, more if using Reivers.
That gives a ton of CPs, a bunch of troops on the board and CC characters, and some crazy good shooting when you come down if you deep strike the Leviathan and the 2 biggest DW squads and then use their various strats.
Biggest issue is the same I'm running into while list building, not enough to cover both anti vehicle and anti infantry needs while keeping a decent amount of CP.
The problem is all of the AT shooting is 20 Str 7 AP-2 2D shots and whatever you could fit on to the Mortis.
Your anti horde is 15-30 intercessor shots. If you add in aggressors, that eats your 400 points surplus up pretty quickly and leaves you with 2 Lascannons and 2 storm cannon arrays to handle all of your ranged AT. The four thunder hammer Captains could certainly help with AT, but I'm hesitant to consider melee AT as a significant contributor to that side of the equation.
It's way less shooting than I normally run in lists as a gunline player, but it's also way more CPs and way more CC power too...
I honestly don't think DW need to worry as much about AT as other marine lists. Just burn your +1 to wound power plus the ap from special issue ammo and even bolters will drop vehicles.
My main concern with my idea is a big chunk of the list isn't actually using the SIA. But I'd need the codex to compare exact loadout prices and options to see whether I'd stick with primaris or instead say do vets with storm bolters for more SIA shots.
They went up against some Catachans. Since I intend to ally these guys with my guard, I took a few liberties by starting these guys in their deep struck position as if it were already turn 2. The guard were also gunlineing it a bit to save more time. To make up for these things the guard had about 150 points more and there weren't any bad units in the force which was made up of:
Both games ended in a blood bath with the captain and librarian (and a couple veterans in one game) on the field with just some tied up basilisks.
Some takeaways:
The storm bolters were fantastic. Even with just 5 in the squad, I ended up split firing a bit against the infantry squads since I didn't need 5 storm bolters to cripple them.
The breacher setup was excellent. Those basilisks, conquerors, and plasma guns have a lot of AP, so among 6 breachers, I think there 6 saves (in each game) that would have gone through the armor.
I love that captain. I originally didn't want to spend the points, but the relic blade is a nice weapon. I think the real gem here is the storm bolter with the relic ammo. 4 shots which a captain will rarely miss, SIA for wounding (+ mission tactics or even a +1 to wound stratagem if you get the chance against a character) wound rolls of 6 cause an additional mortal wound, and finally 2 damage.
I need to rethink how to handle the frag cannons. The unit that had 3 of them didn't work out. My original hope with that squad was to deep strike it closer to a vehicle and move it towards infantry in the next turn, but the Conquerors felt differently. The ones that were buried in the over squads, however, made their points back against the guardsmen. When deep striking the weapon, the real goal is to have it live until next turn. I don't think I'll ever put more than two of them in a deep striking squad again. Maybe a rhino would work
Full deathwatch armies may need to find a different solution against armor, since the captain and librarian were the only thing keeping those Russes in check. But as allies for my guard, they did exactly what I hoped they would do.
McGibs wrote: Terminators are also a good source of stormbolters. Just need to replace the terminator sized glove. I like the space wolf ones, they're fancier looking with drum mags.
Terminators in general seem like they're going to actually work for Deathwatch. Deep striking storm bolters with SIA and 2+/5++ alongside maybe two cyclone missiles and a heavy flamer to keep chargers back. Since you can deep strike it'll be somewhat easy to keep them away from any guns that could pose a real threat to them, and even if you lose a few to an immense volley of fire it's not like they won't do some damage. Something really worth testing.
I also think Drop Pods might make a comeback for Deathwatch. Kill Team Veterans are the only unit marines will have that can really pack enough of a punch to convince players to bring 9+Captain and drop them into rapid fire range. 7 combi-plasmas - which can fire hellfire or kraken bolts - mixed with 2 frag cannons will absolutely obliterate everything they drop next to.
Don't forget that DW Termies can get Meltaguns attached to their Power Fists, unless the codex has changed that. I'm thinking a 5 man squad with 2 Termies with Storm Bolters, Power Fists with Meltaguns, 1 with a TH+SS to soak up high AP shots, 1 with a Storm Bolter, Power Fist with Meltagun, Cyclone Missile Launcher, and 1 with an Assault Cannon, Power Fist with Meltagun could do some damage. Deep strike with a Watch Captain for those sweet rerolls. Expensive, but a hell of a threat to any vehicle you want off the board.
Not sure about drop pods, but with the Beacon Angelis you can give it to a Watch Master, deep strike him with the Teleportarium stratagem, and then use the Beacon Angelis to move 10 Hellblasters within Rapid Fire range near him. I reckon that's quite a bit more firepower than a Kill Team
Or why not both? Drop Pod with Kill Team and Watch Master and Librarian. Teleportarium your Dreadnought. Beacon Angelis another squad. Buff your dreadnought. Start shooting.
Edit: I'm also seeing that their Terminators can replace all of their power fists with other power weapons. Ideally to save loads of points while still having a strong choice, I'd want power axes, but I have no idea how to get those for Terminators. Any ideas?
Chaos Terminators come with 5 axes in a box and not everyone uses them. They have a scary face embellishment at the top of the haft that can be sanded or filled in with greenstuff, other than that they're pretty generic.
Chaos Terminator Storm Bolter arms might actually be the simplest way to get Storm Bolter arms right now. Chop off the blade at the front and sand down the pointy symbols and you have something to work with.
While that works, I'll honestly going to just commit to the wrist mounted Grey Knight bolters because they look so bloody cool.
Aren't they going to be weird though because A) you need hands, and B) all but one are pointed as if they're holding a two handed weapon.
The ones from the Paladins kit look like separate pieces. Are they not?
Two battalions. Standard Guard CP battery of three bare Infantry squads and 2 company commanders. Added in two Manticores to help out my ranged game. Grand Strategist/Kurov's Aquila
Deathwatch battalion:
Watch Capt with TH/SB and Beacon Angelus
Librarian
Kill team with 4x FC, 4x SS/Bolter, 2x Bolter/CS in a Corvus Blackstar
5 man Intercessors
10 man Fortis KT with 5x Intercessors/5x Bolt Aggressors.
Rapier Quad HB Leviathan with 2x Storm Cannons
Came out to about 1990 total after the points adjustments.
Opponent ran a big unit of hellions, a 9 man unit of the DE bikes, a venom, 2 razorwings, the DE bomber, 5 dark lance Raiders each with 5 kabalites with blaster, 2 archons, a unit of 5 scourges, and one other character I can't recall right now.
I kept my Leviathan in DS to keep him from getting shot off the board first turn and chose the FA mission tactic.
He killed a Manticore and all my Guardsmen turn one since I kept as much of the DW stuff as possible out of LOS. After that though, I just started to pick apart his army. Ended almost tabling him on turn 5 with the Leviathan at 4 wounds, the Fortis KT at almost full strength, and the normal kill team with 3 FC left.
The anti Eldar strat is actually not bad, getting a few extra wounds in on the fliers on his turn helped ensure they died on my turn. If I had read it better, Id have noticed it says Deathwatch UNIT, not just infantry, so my Leviathan could have gotten in on the action.
The deep striking leviathan was a rockstar. Granted, DE are the perfect target for the Storm Cannon Array, but he absorbed so many blaster/DL shots over the course of the game that it felt like I would have gotten a lot of value out of him, the durability cannot be written off.
The Fortis Kill team also performed admirably. Having intercessors to soak wounds meant my aggressors lived long enough to double fire. They basically dominated that portion of the board.
Overall impression is positive. Though, this army is absolutely ravenous for CP. 13 starting CP and I was dry by turn 3 and that was with GS/Kurovs. As such, I can't see myself ever making a DW character a warlord in a competitive army. The difference between a 5+ recovery period CP vs a 5+ recovery per stratagem is massive.
john27 wrote: Does anyone have any tips for building a 750 point army and what kind of units I should be using in it
At 750, you don't have the points budget to diversify. I would just go all-in with a one trick teleport pony of a maxed out kill team, a jump Captain, and maybe a razorback for some supporting fire or to act as an LOS blockers.
Something like jump Captain with thunder hammer/storm Bolter with beacon angelus relic.
Kill team with 4x frag cannons, 4x storm shield and Bolter, 2x terminators with power sword and storm Bolters.
Razorback with twin assault cannon.
Depending on the map, you want to keep the KT hidden out of LOS turn one. You can either start the CPT on the table or wait to DS him turn 2. Use his mobility to get you a good position and teleport the KT to his position.
Alternative build at 750 would be Corvus + Watchmaster and a team similar to above minus a Terminator so you can fit everybody inside. Fly Corvus up, drop everyone out, and run up and frag cannon them in the face.
So I just got the codex yesterday and I've been brainstorming on a list for 1000pt tournament coming up in June. I'll have to toe it by hand since BattleScribe hasn't been updated yet. Here's what had in mind although I let the book at the house and can't remember all the points costs yet.
Mission tactic -Furor- reroll 1s against troops
HQ Watch captain jumppack TH, Storm bolter 113pts
Warlord trait-Castellan of the black vault- adds 1 Damage to non relic weapon . Using on thunder hammer
Relic- banebolts of eryxia add 1 to damage of special issue ammo 6s. Are mortal wounds
TheunlikelyGamer wrote: So I just got the codex yesterday and I've been brainstorming on a list for 1000pt tournament coming up in June. I'll have to toe it by hand since BattleScribe hasn't been updated yet. Here's what had in mind although I let the book at the house and can't remember all the points costs yet.
Mission tactic bonus against troops
HQ Watch captain jumppack TH, Storm bolter 113pts
Warlord trait that adds 1 Damage to non relic weapon . Using on THammer
I think the bikes are a mistake in those KT's. They're not granting T5 to the rest of the squad and you have no Terminators to use the emergency teleport granted by their free teleporter. They're just really expensive storm Bolters for you. You also currently can't fit both KT'S in the Corvus since VV's take 2 spots and bikes take 3.
I don't like the Fortis KT as it's set up. You're paying a lot of points for the lowest ROF weapons to sit back and take 9 pot shots a turn all game even when/if the enemy gets close. I would put the beacon angelus on your Captain, give your Fortis KT the rapid fire variants, and teleport them into their ideal range.
Lemondish wrote: Mission Tactics and Doctrines don't apply to dedicated transports, do they?
Only infantry, bikers, and dreads.
I think he meant as a target. It's a pretty glaring omission given how much certain point eared xenos like to transport spam. I hope they FAQ in Dedicated Transports under Venator doctrine/MT or at least create a new doctrine/mt to cover the gap.
I think the bikes are a mistake in those KT's. They're not granting T5 to the rest of the squad and you have no Terminators to use the emergency teleport granted by their free teleporter. They're just really expensive storm Bolters for you. You also currently can't fit both KT'S in the Corvus since VV's take 2 spots and bikes take 3.
I don't like the Fortis KT as it's set up. You're paying a lot of points for the lowest ROF weapons to sit back and take 9 pot shots a turn all game even when/if the enemy gets close. I would put the beacon angelus on your Captain, give your Fortis KT the rapid fire variants, and teleport them into their ideal range.
I have changed the list since that original post and only 1 team still has the bike the other is basic vets. I built the kill team that way so that they could fall back and shoot from combat and charge again if they want in the same turn. With all the storm bolters firing SIA at the foe before they charge I should have a good chance of being able to fall back without too much damage if I choose the right targets. For the fortis team I was trying to ensure I hang some heavy weapons for hard targets wherther heavy infantry, vehicle etc. the rapid fire plasma incinerator is ony S6 I could take the rapid fire version instead I guess. I think I'd rather teleport them with the strategem then with the relic. I wanted a different relic.
Spoiler:
Mission tactic -Furor- reroll 1s against troops
HQ Watch captain jumppack TH, Storm bolter 113pts
Warlord trait-Castellan of the black vault- adds 1 Damage to non relic weapon . Using on thunder hammer
Relic- banebolts of eryxia add 1 to damage of special issue ammo 6s. Are mortal wounds
Lemondish wrote: Mission Tactics and Doctrines don't apply to dedicated transports, do they?
Only infantry, bikers, and dreads.
I think he meant as a target. It's a pretty glaring omission given how much certain point eared xenos like to transport spam. I hope they FAQ in Dedicated Transports under Venator doctrine/MT or at least create a new doctrine/mt to cover the gap.
I think the bikes are a mistake in those KT's. They're not granting T5 to the rest of the squad and you have no Terminators to use the emergency teleport granted by their free teleporter. They're just really expensive storm Bolters for you. You also currently can't fit both KT'S in the Corvus since VV's take 2 spots and bikes take 3.
I don't like the Fortis KT as it's set up. You're paying a lot of points for the lowest ROF weapons to sit back and take 9 pot shots a turn all game even when/if the enemy gets close. I would put the beacon angelus on your Captain, give your Fortis KT the rapid fire variants, and teleport them into their ideal range.
I have changed the list since that original post and only 1 team still has the bike the other is basic vets. I built the kill team that way so that they could fall back and shoot from combat and charge again if they want in the same turn. With all the storm bolters firing SIA at the foe before they charge I should have a good chance of being able to fall back without too much damage if I choose the right targets. For the fortis team I was trying to ensure I hang some heavy weapons for hard targets wherther heavy infantry, vehicle etc. the rapid fire plasma incinerator is ony S6 I could take the rapid fire version instead I guess. I think I'd rather teleport them with the strategem then with the relic. I wanted a different relic.
Spoiler:
Mission tactic -Furor- reroll 1s against troops
HQ Watch captain jumppack TH, Storm bolter 113pts
Warlord trait-Castellan of the black vault- adds 1 Damage to non relic weapon . Using on thunder hammer
Relic- banebolts of eryxia add 1 to damage of special issue ammo 6s. Are mortal wounds
Not convinced there is a situation where you want the ability to fall back, shoot, and charge a unit given the loadouts of your listed KT's. Either you're getting crushed in CC by a dedicated CC unit, or they're trying to tar pit you with chaff blobs. Like, the only unit I could see that wouldn't wreck you on their turn of cc AND is durable enough to survive a full round of shooting from storm bolters the following turn AND THEN still need to be hit in the face with chainswords is cultists.
Strat or relic is fine for teleporting, just don't spend 300 points to put out 9 shots per turn from your backfield. Rapid fire variants of the bolt rifles and plasma incinerator are IMO the best value for their points. Though the assault bolt rifle does have some advantages at 16-30" range depending on ammo and target type.
I think the Tome and the Beacon are the only two Relics worth taking. Making a Captain slightly more badass is nice, but making a unit able to move across the board to contest/take an objective or kill something critical can win a game.
The question is aimed at anyone who already playtested the new Dex.
Do you feel the DW have enough substance now to compete at a top tier? Maybe not a pure DW list but intergrating them into a soup type deal? Or heck even pure DW
The only thing that I can see that seems to be strong enough is the ability to deep strike primaris and dreadnought into rapid fire range. You load 1 unit full of plasma through hellblasters or veteran, have 1 watch captain with jump pack then use strategem to increase +1 to wound roll and rerolling 1 to wound.
Theoretically, It should be enough to instant kill Magnus, shadow sword, 6 Necron destroyers or Tau Yvavhra.
Parking intercessors in objectives with cover and popping out -1ap 2+ to wound everything that is not a vehicle or 36 range -2 ap seems annoying as hell too.
Assuming 5 Intercessors using Hellfire and 5 Hellblasters of the Rapid Fire variant, shooting into Magnus, rerolling hit rolls of 1, but I don't BELIEVE you get reroll wound rolls of 1 against Lords of War, so will calculate without that.
So... Not seeing how that instagibs Magnus. If you meant a full unit of Hellblasters, that ups damage to a little over 10. And if you pop the stratagem for +1 wound (which, again-does that work on LoW?) you get...
It's easy to finish Magnus off with dakka after that. Anyway he is dead within the second turn and your opponent loses the centerpiece of his army. Hellblasters were never able to pull this off before and you only need to deep strike within 15" as well which is very easy to pull off.
Send them a (polite) e-mail so we can get Dedicated Transports added as a valid target for Mission Tactics and Doctrines, either by adding them to an existing doctrine/tactic, creating a new one, or having them take on the role of their passengers for targeting purposes. There's not a lot of Deathwatch players, so we need every voice we can get!
Xorce wrote:It's easy to finish Magnus off with dakka after that. Anyway he is dead within the second turn and your opponent loses the centerpiece of his army. Hellblasters were never able to pull this off before and you only need to deep strike within 15" as well which is very easy to pull off.
I'd say that isn't as easy as you think it is. Will need to punch a hole through their screen, and the screen they use to replenish the one you rocked in the 1st turn - not sure that's guaranteed. That's a good strat, though.
RogueApiary wrote:Hey guys, in light of recent discussion, I have a request, the GWFAQ email is below:
Send them a (polite) e-mail so we can get Dedicated Transports added as a valid target for Mission Tactics and Doctrines, either by adding them to an existing doctrine/tactic, creating a new one, or having them take on the role of their passengers for targeting purposes. There's not a lot of Deathwatch players, so we need every voice we can get!
Already did! Thanks for the reminder, though. I also included questions on the Intercessor aux grenade launcher, the Infernum halo-launcher, Terminator points cost, and a plea to somehow add PotmS through errata to the Blackstar
john27 wrote: So what's the best vehicle killers we have?
Hellblasters, Leviathan dreads, Contemptor Mortis dreads, and Xiphon interceptors are my top picks. In a pinch I guess you could run pseudo Dev squads with 4x missile launchers and some other Bolter or bolter/shield vets to absorb wounds.
The ability to spit out a ton of wounding on 4's/5's with Str 4 AP -2/-3 guns also helps a little.
john27 wrote: So what's the best vehicle killers we have?
Hellblasters, Leviathan dreads, Contemptor Mortis dreads, and Xiphon interceptors are my top picks. In a pinch I guess you could run pseudo Dev squads with 4x missile launchers and some other Bolter or bolter/shield vets to absorb wounds.
The ability to spit out a ton of wounding on 4's/5's with Str 4 AP -2/-3 guns also helps a little.
Missile Launchers with a stalker on the sarge and an Infernus Heavy Bolter for the strat and some overwatch potential perhaps? I feel like we need just enough AT to make it so that we can contribute to killing vehicles without having to spend all our CP on the mortal wound shenanigans.
john27 wrote: So what's the best vehicle killers we have?
Hellblasters, Leviathan dreads, Contemptor Mortis dreads, and Xiphon interceptors are my top picks. In a pinch I guess you could run pseudo Dev squads with 4x missile launchers and some other Bolter or bolter/shield vets to absorb wounds.
The ability to spit out a ton of wounding on 4's/5's with Str 4 AP -2/-3 guns also helps a little.
Missile Launchers with a stalker on the sarge and an Infernus Heavy Bolter for the strat and some overwatch potential perhaps? I feel like we need just enough AT to make it so that we can contribute to killing vehicles without having to spend all our CP on the mortal wound shenanigans.
I would probably run long range anti-vehicle Kill Teams like 2 missile launchers and 3 stalker bolters, but run 2 of them. The rest of my anti-vehicle will come from thunder hammers, dreadnought CCWs, hellblasters, or maybe even a spearhead of Raven Guard devs to just bring my classic lascannons back.
john27 wrote: So what's the best vehicle killers we have?
Hellblasters, Leviathan dreads, Contemptor Mortis dreads, and Xiphon interceptors are my top picks. In a pinch I guess you could run pseudo Dev squads with 4x missile launchers and some other Bolter or bolter/shield vets to absorb wounds.
The ability to spit out a ton of wounding on 4's/5's with Str 4 AP -2/-3 guns also helps a little.
Any particular reason for the Contemptor pick over the standard mortis dread?
Assuming 5 Intercessors using Hellfire and 5 Hellblasters of the Rapid Fire variant, shooting into Magnus, rerolling hit rolls of 1, but I don't BELIEVE you get reroll wound rolls of 1 against Lords of War, so will calculate without that.
So... Not seeing how that instagibs Magnus. If you meant a full unit of Hellblasters, that ups damage to a little over 10. And if you pop the stratagem for +1 wound (which, again-does that work on LoW?) you get...
john27 wrote: So what's the best vehicle killers we have?
Hellblasters, Leviathan dreads, Contemptor Mortis dreads, and Xiphon interceptors are my top picks. In a pinch I guess you could run pseudo Dev squads with 4x missile launchers and some other Bolter or bolter/shield vets to absorb wounds.
The ability to spit out a ton of wounding on 4's/5's with Str 4 AP -2/-3 guns also helps a little.
Any particular reason for the Contemptor pick over the standard mortis dread?
2+ BS, 2 more wounds and a 5++. The degrading profile shouldnt come into play since mid tier is equal BS to the normal Mortis and if they're at bottom tier, they already outlived the Mortis so any shots you get at BS 4+ are gravy. As another mitigating factor to profile degradation. Damage tables change the BS instead of modifying the hit roll, so a Watch Master can help cover the Contemptor Mortis as it degrades.
I see what you mean with the contemptor, and I think it makes sense, it's only 28 points more and you get a lot more survivability and importantly that 2+ to hit.
A quick look at the GW kit tells me I would have to buy forgeworld? Twin lascannon would make the most sense right?
I'm also keen on the Leviathan dread, but slightly torn on the weapon options, I thinking dual grav flux would be the best option due to the fact that you could wipe out hordes if needed and the guaranteed 5dmg is very nice on monsters ans vehicles. What do you guys think?
I want a nice small elite force so I'm thinking I might pick up both of the guys above to form the backbone of my anti tank.
Then a couple of vet squads with storm bolters, couple of shields, and a couple of frag cannons each, to ride in a transport.
And then some primaris with hellblasters to back up the Leviathan as others have suggested.
Already did! Thanks for the reminder, though. I also included questions on the Intercessor aux grenade launcher, the Infernum halo-launcher, Terminator points cost, and a plea to somehow add PotmS through errata to the Blackstar
Can you be more specific on the first few? I noticed the rules are inconsistent for the halo-launcher on the model and the wargear page, and I'm assuming we take the former since it's the one that's different from the index. What's up with the grenade launcher and the Terminator costs?
Already did! Thanks for the reminder, though. I also included questions on the Intercessor aux grenade launcher, the Infernum halo-launcher, Terminator points cost, and a plea to somehow add PotmS through errata to the Blackstar
Can you be more specific on the first few? I noticed the rules are inconsistent for the halo-launcher on the model and the wargear page, and I'm assuming we take the former since it's the one that's different from the index. What's up with the grenade launcher and the Terminator costs?
Re: Infernum - I think it's safe to assume the datasheet one is what we should be using, but it'd be nice to know for sure. Probably an errata thing.
Re: Aux nade launcher - RAW, since the Intercessor unit starts with 1 Sgt. and 4 Intercessors, and an Intercessor Sgt. is a differently model with a different statline and treated differently for all wargear purposes (or referenced separately when it applies to both him and regular old Intercessors), the wording "For every 5 Intercessors..." in the Intercessors data sheet seems to imply that the Sgt. isn't included when making this determination. Kind of like how even though a Black Shield or a Watch Sergeant is a Veteran, they aren't really a Veteran for wargear purposes. The change in wording from the "For every 5 models..." line from the C:SM is weird and makes it appear as if - if we're being heavily literal - you need a squad of 6 to take an aux launcher.
Re: Terminator costs - every other unit in the codex was updated to match its C:SM counterpart...except this one. Seems out of place as they're still inexplicably 31 points. Perhaps intended because of Unflinching? Seems SUPER freakin' expensive for just that buff, so I felt it was worth throwing in there for clarification. Not entirely sure it's something they'll errata but was worth sending along.
Re: PotMS on Blackstar - this is just a freakin' shot in the dark. I have zero confidence we'll see that added. Likewise zero confidence in seeing something like Heavy Bolters get back on the SIA list.
I got a box of Primaris Aggressors as a prize at a recent tournament to add to two sets of Primaris from the box set.
Unfortunately the Deathwatch Codex sold out or I'd have snagged that too.
So until re-stocking this week, what all (or mostly) Primaris Deathwatch units/Detachments/Armies/Quilting Circles would be good to start up a Deathwatch army?
So I got some questions for Terminator conversions:
1. Combi-weapons for terminator HQs: where do you find the bits for these? Terminator captains with combi-plasma sound amazing.
2. Meltaguns on power fists: Again, any idea how to convert these? The only one I know of is the Salamander on Kill Team Cassius. I also found out that Terminator captains can get this as well, so you could have a dual melta captain or storm bolter/meltagun, which seems like the only model worth putting a meltagun on.
Does anyone know if Artemis still has the statis bomb?
He does and I would still not take him over a watch master.
FNP, 2+ wound combi-flamer, mortal wound bomb. Watch Master is a force multiplier, sits in the back, takes your warlord tactic and probably your relic and does his best to deny Slay the Warlord, but Artemis is just a beast of a model by himself. Don't make him your warlord but he makes a mean machine to send in with the boys.
Does anyone know if Artemis still has the statis bomb?
He does and I would still not take him over a watch master.
FNP, 2+ wound combi-flamer, mortal wound bomb. Watch Master is a force multiplier, sits in the back, takes your warlord tactic and probably your relic and does his best to deny Slay the Warlord, but Artemis is just a beast of a model by himself. Don't make him your warlord but he makes a mean machine to send in with the boys.
FNP 6+ and 5 wounds means he might just equal out to having the same amount of wounds as a watch master. His mortal wound bomb is nice no denying that especially with his 2+ re-rollable chance to hit. His shooting is a 2+ flamer which is good and a normal boltgun where as the watch master has a ap-1 2 damage boltgun. I'll give the shooting edge to Artimas, but it is in melee where artimas falls apart. He has a dinky power sword and that is it as well as only a 3+ armor. The master hits much harder, stays alive longer, and provides full re-rolls to hit which is huge. At the bare minimum he doubles what you re-roll to hit normally and on overwatch he helps a ton!
Personally I don't think its even a contest, but I do see what you are saying. If Artimas had a better melee weapon we could talk.
I do think Artemis could go for a better melee weapon, but I've been pretty happy with him dropping out of the Corvis with the Frag team. He generally manages to get the statis bomb out and survives retaliation in no small part due to the flamer on overwatch.
I find him to be the right HQ to include in the Corvis bomb plan. My main issue is more that the Corvis bomb itself probably isn't the best plan, as fun as it is.
I haven't given up on Drop Pods being really good for Deathwatch. Now that we have a unit that can actually spit a stupid level of effective fire into the drop pod: 6 Storm Bolter Veterans and 3 Frag Cannons with Captain/Artemis/Watch Master that can drop alongside a Primaris squad/Dreadnought out of the Teleportarium is just a great way to get people in threat range with your HQ and gun some folks down.
Also I think Watch Master is better than Artemis if you can only take one. Watch Master + Artemis seems like a great deal, except there's no "one model only" limit on Watch Masters, so spam away.
SputnikDX wrote: I haven't given up on Drop Pods being really good for Deathwatch. Now that we have a unit that can actually spit a stupid level of effective fire into the drop pod: 6 Storm Bolter Veterans and 3 Frag Cannons with Captain/Artemis/Watch Master that can drop alongside a Primaris squad/Dreadnought out of the Teleportarium is just a great way to get people in threat range with your HQ and gun some folks down.
Why waste the points on a drop pod? If you want a transport to work alongside beacons and the deepstrike stratagem just invest in a corvis. It is a solid model on its own right and can bring very valuable anti-tank to the army.
SputnikDX wrote: So I got some questions for Terminator conversions:
1. Combi-weapons for terminator HQs: where do you find the bits for these? Terminator captains with combi-plasma sound amazing.
2. Meltaguns on power fists: Again, any idea how to convert these? The only one I know of is the Salamander on Kill Team Cassius. I also found out that Terminator captains can get this as well, so you could have a dual melta captain or storm bolter/meltagun, which seems like the only model worth putting a meltagun on.
There's a combi-melta in the Blood Angels Librarian Terminator kit by the looks of the sprue on the GW website. Looks like FW also has a pack of Terminator weapons, but they're using the older pattern bolter. You could just use a normal combi weapons from like a Sternguard kit since it ultimately is the same weapon.
As for the meltaguns on powerfists - heard some folks talking about using chainfists and replacing the chain with the melta barrel. I'm personally only going to make one of these and just use the arm from Kill Team Cassius.
Martel732 wrote: It is, but you are guaranteed to lose a lot of points the very next turn. I don't think the one wound DW guys are a good value.
Alright:
You have a few units on the table about 9" from where your screen was before it was completely obliterated. There's a drop pod, a 9 man veteran kill team, two 10 man primaris kill teams, a Watch Master you can't target, and a leviathan dreadnought. There are two kill teams in the back with missile launchers and stalker boltguns, also supported by another watch master.
What's your game plan?
Tibs Ironblood wrote: Why waste the points on a drop pod? If you want a transport to work alongside beacons and the deepstrike stratagem just invest in a corvis. It is a solid model on its own right and can bring very valuable anti-tank to the army.
Because I've had enough vehicles blown up on turn 1 to not rely on them, especially ones on huge flying bases that can't hide behind buildings.
Corvus is great, don't get me wrong, but I'll take reliability over a pretty plane, especially because I've been dying to have drop pods work since 8th started.
"Alright:
You have a few units on the table about 9" from where your screen was before it was completely obliterated. There's a drop pod, a 9 man veteran kill team, two 10 man primaris kill teams, a Watch Master you can't target, and a leviathan dreadnought. There are two kill teams in the back with missile launchers and stalker boltguns, also supported by another watch master.
What's your game plan?"
As BA, IG or Xenos? As Xenos, just kill your dudes. Because Xenos. Shoot your primaris with my 2 damage weapons and your 1 W guys with my other weapons.
IG lose nothing important by losing their screen. Shoot primaris with multi-wound artillery/battlecannons, shoot 1 W goobers with mortars/heavy bolters.
With BA, I probably lose. Big shocker.
1 W DW models are very fragile for their cost. They are all-in on causing a ton of damage quickly, because they have staying power. I prefer the slow burn of a mostly intercessor force and then soup in other Imperial elements. Preferably more targets for multi-wound weapons.
I want all my Deathwatch games to end in a table on turn 3. Either I win or you win. If I haven't blown you off the board or been totally annihilated by then I'll consider it a bad game.
SputnikDX wrote: I want all my Deathwatch games to end in a table on turn 3. Either I win or you win. If I haven't blown you off the board or been totally annihilated by then I'll consider it a bad game.
Oh well, carry on then.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
JNAProductions wrote: Martel, you realize BA are placing pretty highly? I'd argue they're a good bit better than DW.
And yes, I know BA is only part of Imperial Soup in top tournaments. Guess what? No one's pure at that level.
I don't consider that BA placing highly, but it's all semantics.
Mono-BA would certainly lose to this tactic. BA are in no way better than DW. Having functional troops is huge.
john27 wrote: So what's the best vehicle killers we have?
Hellblasters, Leviathan dreads, Contemptor Mortis dreads, and Xiphon interceptors are my top picks. In a pinch I guess you could run pseudo Dev squads with 4x missile launchers and some other Bolter or bolter/shield vets to absorb wounds.
The ability to spit out a ton of wounding on 4's/5's with Str 4 AP -2/-3 guns also helps a little.
Vehicle cracking is definitely my current puzzle. Right now I just run a couple TLC Razorbacks half out of laziness, but they're often just a option to deploy important things inside. With Primaris largely removing that option and Mission Tactics not benefiting them, I feel like I need a better solution.
SputnikDX wrote: I want all my Deathwatch games to end in a table on turn 3. Either I win or you win. If I haven't blown you off the board or been totally annihilated by then I'll consider it a bad game.
Oh well, carry on then.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
JNAProductions wrote: Martel, you realize BA are placing pretty highly? I'd argue they're a good bit better than DW.
And yes, I know BA is only part of Imperial Soup in top tournaments. Guess what? No one's pure at that level.
I don't consider that BA placing highly, but it's all semantics.
Mono-BA would certainly lose to this tactic. BA are in no way better than DW. Having functional troops is huge.
Sure...but if I could take scout squads in DW? That'd be amazing. Been strongly considering adding the plug and play BA batt to my DW.
Martel732 wrote: Scouts are... meh. I won't miss them much if I drop them from my lists for DW. I feel like I'm giving away 165 pts every game.
In an army where not a single model is expendable, scouts are a godsend. I still think realistically if I wanted to run DW in a competitive fashion I'd have a RG Battalion with 3 scout squads with heavy bolter, Shrike, Lieutenant, and two devastator squads each with cherub, 2 lascannons, and 1 ML. 671 points for 5 CP and some nice anti-vehicle and expendable models that can help me get turn 1 board control and hopefully keep the middle of the board belonging to me until turn 2 when the deep strike shenanigans happen.
Just a heads up, for anyone trying to scoop up Storm Bolters on eBay.
I purchased 20 for $12 a few weeks ago. The package finally arrived, they're all recasts. Slightly warped, the sides of the mold don't exactly line up, they're made of a fairly brittle material, some details missing on every piece. Probably usable as debris on bases, but not on models.
Have spoken with the seller. He's embarrassed and refunded what I paid for them. Claims he was unaware they are recasts and that the quality was so poor.
While I didn't see any other auctions for Storm Bolters on his store page, I had the impression he has done other auctions for the same without complaint.
While I'm not out any money, this does put a crimp in my plans. Be careful about oh-so-good-deals on Storm Bolters.
Alright so this will be my first attempt at a 2000 point competitive list now that Battlescribe has been updated. I don't have most of these models but I'd love to get some feedback.
Martel732 wrote: I don't consider 11 ppm expendable. That's the problem with scouts.
The option is to use 11 point models or have trouble getting mid field objectives turn 1 in Maelstrom/Progressive games and no push back screen against T1 shenanigans, which still very much exist.
If you want them they are a god sent.
If you don't need them its 'only' 165 points and you can deploy them conservatively.
I'm really interested in using Deathwatch to augment my GK. The standout of the new Deathwatch Codex to me is the Intercessors being able to add in either a single Aggressor or a single Inceptor to gain a great buff. My initial list to test with Deathwatch is about 900 points, and it's 2 Primaris Captains, followed by 3 identical squads of Intercessors: 9 Intercessors with Stalker Boltguns and a single Aggressor. The Primaris are shooting at 36" range, can move and fire heavy weapons without penalty (thanks to the Agrressor), and can take special ammo to wound on a 2+ with a -2AP weapon. With the Captains nearby, you're re-rolling 1s to hit, and depending on your Mission Tactic, re-rolling 1s to wound.
Artemis vs Watchmaster, I much prefer Watchmaster, from my limited experience with my new DW. But I also rate a Watchcaptain over Artemis too!
The 5++ bubble relic is a great opener for your covus and other high priority targets like ven dreads, and once baby sitting duties are done, the cap can jump about thunderhammering things in the head... great counterassault unit.
So while I've run my WC in the back, I've had a bit of luck running my WM up front with the Osseus Key in my Corvus. They guy has been a solid vehicle hunter in the few games I've used him like this.
He jumps out with his libby retinue who drop smites. He triggers clavis and tempest shells for 2d3 mortal wounds, and closes to do another 1d3 in CC. If the vehicle survives, it's severely degraded and is also -1 to hit due to the relic. I run my vets almost pure storm bolters, so his reroll up front makes a big difference to the dakka. It all stacks together to output great shots on mooks and great mortal wounds on tough targets. I think WM tooled to hunt vehicles might actually be competitive.
A competitive mostly-deathwatch list... The deathwatch clear screens with murderous bolter fire, to allow the BA smash-captains to jump down and break exposed vehicles. AM battalion sits at the back taking lascannon pot shots.
Deathwatch battalion
Watchmaster Watch captain with jump pack, storm bolter and thunder hammer
Primaris kill team - 5 intercessors, 4 aggressors, 1 inceptor Primaris kill team - 5 intercessors, 4 aggressors, 1 inceptor Primaris kill team - 5 intercessors, 2 aggressors, 2 hellblasters, 1 inceptor Primaris kill team 5 intercessors, 2 hellblasters
Blood angels battalion
Captain with jump pack, storm shield and thunder hammer Captain with jump pack, storm shield and thunder hammer 5 Scouts with bolters 5 Scouts with bolters 5 Scouts with bolters
Astra Militarum battalion (cadian)
Company commander (warlord, grand strategist, Kurov's aquila) Primaris psyker (psychic maelstrom) Infantry squad with lascannon 60pts Infantry squad with lascannon 60pts Infantry squad with lascannon 60pts
Martel732 wrote: Scouts are... meh. I won't miss them much if I drop them from my lists for DW. I feel like I'm giving away 165 pts every game.
Then you aren't playing in a very expansive meta. The one thing DW lacks is screens. You may not think 11 point models aren't worth sacrificing, but consider all the things they can do for you.
Would you prefer your 20+ point marines be the ones to catch Smites? I'm not talking smite spam armies because a couple Librarians can ruin your day. Without units like scouts, how do you intend to zone out deep strike? Probably not a good idea to let your Intercessors eat drop plasma even if it's coming in turn 2. Enough scouts in cover can achieve board control, secure objectives, and will protect your real important damaging units for a turn or 2.
Now, they aren't the best at this job. They deploy better than other screens. They are a bit more durable, and they can bring a source of mortal wounds and strong anti-infantry, but their cost means less bodies to do the job you want them to.
IG will of course remain the best screens, but scouts shouldn't be ignored if you want to stay mono-marine. I'd love to get scouts in DW.
Scouts don't do their job as well anymore, because turn 2 deep striking gives them a turn to clean out the scouts. At least, that's what keeps happening.
That's why my thoughts are still similar to DoomMouse's: Min BA battalion for 3 Scout units and 2 smash captains. That or use RG and also add in the longer range fire support that DW doesn't have access or doesn't give benefits to.
bort wrote: That's why my thoughts are still similar to DoomMouse's: Min BA battalion for 3 Scout units and 2 smash captains. That or use RG and also add in the longer range fire support that DW doesn't have access or doesn't give benefits to.
A Raven Guard batt could be interesting alongside a nice squad of Devastators of course
Having trouble giving up the cheap AM Batt, though.
Am I missing something or can't you use "Adeptus Astartes" as your detachment keyword to stay battleforged and just throw the scouts in with the rest of the DW?
combatcotton wrote: Am I missing something or can't you use "Adeptus Astartes" as your detachment keyword to stay battleforged and just throw the scouts in with the rest of the DW?
You can, but you give up ObjSec and mission tactics / chapter tactics for that detachment.
combatcotton wrote: Am I missing something or can't you use "Adeptus Astartes" as your detachment keyword to stay battleforged and just throw the scouts in with the rest of the DW?
You lose mission tactics and stratagems and most everything that makes DW worth consideration.
The 5++ bubble relic is a great opener for your covus and other high priority targets like ven dreads, and once baby sitting duties are done, the cap can jump about thunderhammering things in the head... great counterassault unit.
Does the Dominus Aegis work turn 1? It states you have to not move in the movement phase?
Not near enough AT. 24 Str 7 AP -1 2D shots even with all your rerolls and +1 to wound (only applies to one dreads shooting) is going to do dick all to a Leman Russ, much less 3+ Leman Russes before they turn around and delete your three T7 8W models with no invulns or hit penalties. You'll clear hordes really well though, but against any significant armor you are screwed.
The Smash Captains are good at anti armor work, but they are limited in their choice of targets and likely to die afterwards.
So I've obtained a copy of the codex and have been reading it over. I've always loved the Deathwatch, especially when the plastic kit was released, but they've always been too few in number for my liking. While similar armies like Custodians or Harlequins are also small, elite forces, they have a bit more survivability in the form of Invulnerables, multi-wounds, and are a lot faster due to innate speed or DTs/Deep Striking/Bikes etc.
With the new book, are DW still in that rut of "expensive when kitted out but still die as easily as normal Marines"? I'd like to get a small force, maybe to act on their own, maybe as part of a soup-list, but they seem just too expensive for their output.
With the new book, are DW still in that rut of "expensive when kitted out but still die as easily as normal Marines"? I'd like to get a small force, maybe to act on their own, maybe as part of a soup-list, but they seem just too expensive for their output.
Unfortunately the Codex has not done much to improve durability. DW are very much a glass cannon type of force, which is why the best results will be had by allying them with someone that can provide what they lack.
Valkyrie wrote: So I've obtained a copy of the codex and have been reading it over. I've always loved the Deathwatch, especially when the plastic kit was released, but they've always been too few in number for my liking. While similar armies like Custodians or Harlequins are also small, elite forces, they have a bit more survivability in the form of Invulnerables, multi-wounds, and are a lot faster due to innate speed or DTs/Deep Striking/Bikes etc.
With the new book, are DW still in that rut of "expensive when kitted out but still die as easily as normal Marines"? I'd like to get a small force, maybe to act on their own, maybe as part of a soup-list, but they seem just too expensive for their output.
Their output has gotten a huge buff with the addition of storm bolters being able to take SIA, chapter tactics, and stratagems, and their durability has improved with Primaris marines. I don't know how good they're going to be, but time will tell.
With the new book, are DW still in that rut of "expensive when kitted out but still die as easily as normal Marines"? I'd like to get a small force, maybe to act on their own, maybe as part of a soup-list, but they seem just too expensive for their output.
Unfortunately the Codex has not done much to improve durability. DW are very much a glass cannon type of force, which is why the best results will be had by allying them with someone that can provide what they lack.
I disagree a bit on this. Sure, as a single force, DW still has some big pitfalls. It's too easy to get caught up with the flexibility of Veterans or Fortis Kill Teams and start adding a ton of things that aren't necessary. The army also lacks any form of decent screening unit. So those issues haven't really changed.
But the inclusion of Primaris has given DW a more durable kill team option. They don't really have the same flexibility or damage output as the Veterans, but they're certainly harder to shift from a position and are competitively priced. They also solve many of the Primaris issues, like adding ablative wounds to Aggressors so you can actually get them to fire twice, or giving some Hellblasters the option to fall back and shoot so they aren't silenced when someone drives a Wave Serpent into them.
Veterans themselves have always been more survivable than normal Marines because of the availability of Storm Shields and the option to add a Terminator to the squad to tank any low AP shots with his 2 wounds. Thanks to the Codex you can add to their durability with the Teleportarium stratagem by keeping these glasscannons off the board for a bit. They're also slightly cheaper than they were in the Index, and gain a doubling of offensive firepower now that storm bolters can fire SIA. They can definitely be a solid force for friendly, non-competitive games. For more competitive types, you'll want to ally something in with them to provide the things they lack.
I disagree a bit on this. Sure, as a single force, DW still has some big pitfalls. It's too easy to get caught up with the flexibility of Veterans or Fortis Kill Teams and start adding a ton of things that aren't necessary. The army also lacks any form of decent screening unit. So those issues haven't really changed.
But the inclusion of Primaris has given DW a more durable kill team option. They don't really have the same flexibility or damage output as the Veterans, but they're certainly harder to shift from a position and are competitively priced. They also solve many of the Primaris issues, like adding ablative wounds to Aggressors so you can actually get them to fire twice, or giving some Hellblasters the option to fall back and shoot so they aren't silenced when someone drives a Wave Serpent into them.
Veterans themselves have always been more survivable than normal Marines because of the availability of Storm Shields and the option to add a Terminator to the squad to tank any low AP shots with his 2 wounds. Thanks to the Codex you can add to their durability with the Teleportarium stratagem by keeping these glasscannons off the board for a bit. They're also slightly cheaper than they were in the Index, and gain a doubling of offensive firepower now that storm bolters can fire SIA. They can definitely be a solid force for friendly, non-competitive games. For more competitive types, you'll want to ally something in with them to provide the things they lack.
I actually agree with your assessment. The Primaris kill team does provide a more durable option to the army as a stand alone, but I do not think that it would be enough to make a difference in a truly competitive environment, just as you mentioned. That extra wound does not do much against plasma spam after all. For more casual games, it could potentially work, and even taking Veterans with Stormbolters and Storm Shields and/or mixing in Terminators is an option that provides improved durability with decent firepower, although mortal wounds would still be a big problem for them. It is really the lack of screening units that I think hurts the DW the most. Just having access to scouts would help them be able to stand alone on a competitive level in my opinion.
I actually agree with your assessment. The Primaris kill team does provide a more durable option to the army as a stand alone, but I do not think that it would be enough to make a difference in a truly competitive environment, just as you mentioned. That extra wound does not do much against plasma spam after all. For more casual games, it could potentially work, and even taking Veterans with Stormbolters and Storm Shields and/or mixing in Terminators is an option that provides improved durability with decent firepower, although mortal wounds would still be a big problem for them. It is really the lack of screening units that I think hurts the DW the most. Just having access to scouts would help them be able to stand alone on a competitive level in my opinion.
Absolutely - agreed on all points. The lack of effective screening means they're susceptible to everything you mentioned here. But...add in an AM Battalion and you're plugging a lot of those holes. Heck, go with the plug-and-play BA battalion with scouts as well. Now mortal wounds from psykers can't hit your Primaris - they have to hit your screen. Plasma also can't rapid fire on your Primaris from deep strike - they're zoned out by your screen, which halves the damage they can do to those 2 wound models.
DW is definitely a force that needs help elsewhere at the competitive level, but you can bring a lot of really fine toys and stratagems to make that 1000-1500 points of DW really strong.
Yeah, I am currently looking at using a Mechanicus Battalion with my DW to provide extra CP's and screening units, as well as some added Vehicle killing power. Using an IG or the BA scout battalion might be more competitive, but I am a big fan of the Mechanicus and I like using an ally that is less used by others. You can sure fill in a lot of DW's holes with just a single detachment costing less than 500 points!
ikeulhu wrote: Yeah, I am currently looking at using a Mechanicus Battalion with my DW to provide extra CP's and screening units, as well as some added Vehicle killing power. Using an IG or the BA scout battalion might be more competitive, but I am a big fan of the Mechanicus and I like using an ally that is less used by others. You can sure fill in a lot of DW's holes with just a single detachment costing less than 500 points!
Nothing wrong with that, and they do the job very well so I wouldn't even say it isn't particularly competitive.
With the new book, are DW still in that rut of "expensive when kitted out but still die as easily as normal Marines"? I'd like to get a small force, maybe to act on their own, maybe as part of a soup-list, but they seem just too expensive for their output.
Unfortunately the Codex has not done much to improve durability. DW are very much a glass cannon type of force, which is why the best results will be had by allying them with someone that can provide what they lack.
I disagree a bit on this. Sure, as a single force, DW still has some big pitfalls. It's too easy to get caught up with the flexibility of Veterans or Fortis Kill Teams and start adding a ton of things that aren't necessary. The army also lacks any form of decent screening unit. So those issues haven't really changed.
But the inclusion of Primaris has given DW a more durable kill team option. They don't really have the same flexibility or damage output as the Veterans, but they're certainly harder to shift from a position and are competitively priced. They also solve many of the Primaris issues, like adding ablative wounds to Aggressors so you can actually get them to fire twice, or giving some Hellblasters the option to fall back and shoot so they aren't silenced when someone drives a Wave Serpent into them.
Veterans themselves have always been more survivable than normal Marines because of the availability of Storm Shields and the option to add a Terminator to the squad to tank any low AP shots with his 2 wounds. Thanks to the Codex you can add to their durability with the Teleportarium stratagem by keeping these glasscannons off the board for a bit. They're also slightly cheaper than they were in the Index, and gain a doubling of offensive firepower now that storm bolters can fire SIA. They can definitely be a solid force for friendly, non-competitive games. For more competitive types, you'll want to ally something in with them to provide the things they lack.
That's what I'm concerned about. They have some nice new toys (despite some stuff I've heard I rather like Intercessors), but once you begin to kit your guys out, really make them a considerable force, you're looking at probably 25-40pts per Marine, who will die just as easily as a regular one.
Also theres the annoying fact that if you want to mix up your units you'll have to buy a few different kits, the price will soon add up.
An intercessor costs 20 pts, and has two wounds, which means you could have 5 guardsmen instead and get 5 wounds. However, the bolt rifle with SIA finally gives some meaningful advantage over the guardsmen. Is it enough to make up the wound difference? I guess we'll find out.
If I can make a prediction, we'll never see a primarily Deathwatch army top competitive.
However, I think rather than Deathwatch with allies, we'll likely see Deathwatch be used as allies. AM Brigade primary force with a Deathwatch Patrol being used as a deep striking elite assassin force. They are not durable as a primary force to not have games end like I mentioned (someone getting tabled turn 3), but basically take the role that Scions have and replace them with a Deathwatch to deep strike some RIDICULOUS fire. I think they'll be a strong element in Imperium lists, especially if Xenos continue to rule.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I did a maths. The green indicates the highest possible damage. All maths are per-weapon and do not factor in rerolls to hit OR wound.
From my findings I came to a few conclusions:
1. Always rapid fire. In all cases, even against a hive tyrant, go for the ammo that is going to get you the most shots every single time. If you are 14" away never use Hellfire when you can use Kraken rounds. If you are 10" away never use Vengeance rounds when you can use Hellfire rounds. If you are in range to rapid fire with Kraken rounds, always use Kraken rounds.
2. The Kraken rounds lose out in almost every category except range, but since rapid firing is so critical I think they'll see the majority of use.
3. Hellfire should be used exclusively on Orks, I think it goes without saying, and anything above T4 should also probably get hit with Hellfire rounds.
4. I think Auto Bolt Rifles are competitive and aren't as bad as people make them. The damage tradeoff is very low considering the extra range and the ability to advance and keep that range. It all depends on the army your facing unfortunately, and I think the regular Bolt Rifles might win out simply due to the lower cost.
It's a shame that you missed out plaguebearers though, as those are one of the top horde units right now. Clearly, the best thing to use against them is hellfire, and the best way to do that is with auto bolt rifles and storm bolters.
That's why I like auto bolt rifles for intercessors. They aren't ever really worse than the rapid fire option, but you're faster and can hit twice from further away.
That's why I like auto bolt rifles for intercessors. They aren't ever really worse than the rapid fire option, but you're faster and can hit twice from further away.
They also benefit from the Aggressor's buff, making them especially worth considering if you plan on mixing Aggressors in with your Intercessors.
That's why I like auto bolt rifles for intercessors. They aren't ever really worse than the rapid fire option, but you're faster and can hit twice from further away.
They also benefit from the Aggressor's buff, making them especially worth considering if you plan on mixing Aggressors in with your Intercessors.
Yeah exactly.
I think it makes sense to have auto rifles in intergressor squads and standard rifles with heltercessors - which is my new favourite word. Have an inceptor, 5 intercessors and 4 aggressors/hellblasters in each squad.
Skhmt wrote: Is 5 intercessor with stalker bolt rifles, 4 hellblasters with heavy plasma, and 1 aggressor worth the points?
In my opinion, no. I don't think the heavy versions of bolt rifles or plasma incinerators are as good as the rapid fire or assault versions. One marginally better shot is never as good as two shots. GW doesn't understand that really basic fact, so they charge more points for worse guns. Avoid.
On top of that you're paying 37 points for an aggressor just so the unit can move and shoot - which rapid fire guys could do for free - and you've got no inceptor so you can't fall back and shoot.
Skhmt wrote: Is 5 intercessor with stalker bolt rifles, 4 hellblasters with heavy plasma, and 1 aggressor worth the points?
In my opinion, no. I don't think the heavy versions of bolt rifles or plasma incinerators are as good as the rapid fire or assault versions. One marginally better shot is never as good as two shots. GW doesn't understand that really basic fact, so they charge more points for worse guns. Avoid.
On top of that you're paying 37 points for an aggressor just so the unit can move and shoot - which rapid fire guys could do for free - and you've got no inceptor so you can't fall back and shoot.
The reason I think 5 SBRs + an agressor might be worth it is for taking down non-vehicle hard targets, or even some vehicle targets with a +1 to wound strat in play.
the innate -2 on the SBR makes hellfire incredibly effective vs: (DPs, Tyranids, Some other choas beasties, Tau suits, certain necron units) because they wound well and can still deny the majority of a save, unlike BR/ABR which are mostly either/or.
vs vehicles, you can hit out to 42" with kraken or 30" with vengeance, apply the appropriate doctrine, and now you're wounding on 4s/rr1 and anything that gets through denies most of the save. not too bad for infantry weapons vs T7. Speaking from experience playing craftworlds, that's better chances than shuriken cannons have vs vehicles, and they do a lot of work already.
Skhmt wrote: Is 5 intercessor with stalker bolt rifles, 4 hellblasters with heavy plasma, and 1 aggressor worth the points?
In my opinion, no. I don't think the heavy versions of bolt rifles or plasma incinerators are as good as the rapid fire or assault versions. One marginally better shot is never as good as two shots. GW doesn't understand that really basic fact, so they charge more points for worse guns. Avoid.
On top of that you're paying 37 points for an aggressor just so the unit can move and shoot - which rapid fire guys could do for free - and you've got no inceptor so you can't fall back and shoot.
Going to echo exactly this. I know folks like stalkers (or maybe they just like the idea of stalkers), but with such a limited weight of fire they are not worth it at all.
Maybe they can be effective if you drop the hellblasters because what's the point of inflating the cost of this unit even more if you're using the Intercessors to target the same things you would normally want to throw the plasma at. Also ditch the Aggressor who will never shoot if you're trying to stay at max range anyway. Park the squad in cover and never ever move it, because honestly what's the point of adding mobility to a unit with a 42'' threat range at AP -2 anyway?
You'd still find more damage out of rapid fire, though.
That's why I like auto bolt rifles for intercessors. They aren't ever really worse than the rapid fire option, but you're faster and can hit twice from further away.
They also benefit from the Aggressor's buff, making them especially worth considering if you plan on mixing Aggressors in with your Intercessors.
Yeah exactly.
I think it makes sense to have auto rifles in intergressor squads and standard rifles with heltercessors - which is my new favourite word. Have an inceptor, 5 intercessors and 4 aggressors/hellblasters in each squad.
To keep points down so that they can be used on SIA weapons elsewhere, I've started heavily considering dropping it to 1 Aggressor for the movement boost and sticking with just more Intercessors. Give up a ton of bolter shots and T5 majority, sure - but maximizing SIA is what makes DW different - can get basic bolters for cheaper elsewhere, and I think that type of squad is plenty survivable for its job of being a nuisance and clearing screens. I'll have to play and see if its as much fun as the other build I had lol.
Skhmt wrote: Is 5 intercessor with stalker bolt rifles, 4 hellblasters with heavy plasma, and 1 aggressor worth the points?
In my opinion, no. I don't think the heavy versions of bolt rifles or plasma incinerators are as good as the rapid fire or assault versions. One marginally better shot is never as good as two shots. GW doesn't understand that really basic fact, so they charge more points for worse guns. Avoid.
On top of that you're paying 37 points for an aggressor just so the unit can move and shoot - which rapid fire guys could do for free - and you've got no inceptor so you can't fall back and shoot.
The reason I think 5 SBRs + an agressor might be worth it is for taking down non-vehicle hard targets, or even some vehicle targets with a +1 to wound strat in play.
the innate -2 on the SBR makes hellfire incredibly effective vs: (DPs, Tyranids, Some other choas beasties, Tau suits, certain necron units) because they wound well and can still deny the majority of a save, unlike BR/ABR which are mostly either/or.
vs vehicles, you can hit out to 42" with kraken or 30" with vengeance, apply the appropriate doctrine, and now you're wounding on 4s/rr1 and anything that gets through denies most of the save. not too bad for infantry weapons vs T7. Speaking from experience playing craftworlds, that's better chances than shuriken cannons have vs vehicles, and they do a lot of work already.
Sorry but I still don’t see any reason to take the heavy options over rapid fire. Trying to take down vehicles with expensive 1 shot, 1 damage S4 weapons will not succeed. There’s really no doubt or debate on that fact.
These guns would be viable if they were heavy 2. As it stands there’s no target that they are better against. There are lots of targets (orks, plaguebearers, wraiths, harlequins to name a few) where they are exactly half as good as assault or RF rifles, while actually being more expensive.
It’s good to look at uses for under-used stuff. You sometimes do find gems. This isn’t one.
For DW, yes. I have seen assault be of value in other SM armies, particularly for mobile heavy infantry hunters, but with how easily it is for DW to wound things the assault incinerators end up with a more limited role. Better to have S8 like Primark says.
I think assault hellblasters are niche but very good. Run them with assault bolters, and a single aggressor & inceptor and you have a really high quality ground-unit that can move fast, take objectives, ignore CC tie ups and hurt every unit T7 and below. Paired with a dreadnought to trigger ancient's strat for rerolls and you have a very nice kill team tha can manage range, move from cover to cover, and burn down targets.
Skhmt wrote: Is 5 intercessor with stalker bolt rifles, 4 hellblasters with heavy plasma, and 1 aggressor worth the points?
In my opinion, no. I don't think the heavy versions of bolt rifles or plasma incinerators are as good as the rapid fire or assault versions. One marginally better shot is never as good as two shots. GW doesn't understand that really basic fact, so they charge more points for worse guns. Avoid.
On top of that you're paying 37 points for an aggressor just so the unit can move and shoot - which rapid fire guys could do for free - and you've got no inceptor so you can't fall back and shoot.
Going to echo exactly this. I know folks like stalkers (or maybe they just like the idea of stalkers), but with such a limited weight of fire they are not worth it at all.
Maybe they can be effective if you drop the hellblasters because what's the point of inflating the cost of this unit even more if you're using the Intercessors to target the same things you would normally want to throw the plasma at. Also ditch the Aggressor who will never shoot if you're trying to stay at max range anyway. Park the squad in cover and never ever move it, because honestly what's the point of adding mobility to a unit with a 42'' threat range at AP -2 anyway?
You'd still find more damage out of rapid fire, though.
That's why I like auto bolt rifles for intercessors. They aren't ever really worse than the rapid fire option, but you're faster and can hit twice from further away.
They also benefit from the Aggressor's buff, making them especially worth considering if you plan on mixing Aggressors in with your Intercessors.
Yeah exactly.
I think it makes sense to have auto rifles in intergressor squads and standard rifles with heltercessors - which is my new favourite word. Have an inceptor, 5 intercessors and 4 aggressors/hellblasters in each squad.
To keep points down so that they can be used on SIA weapons elsewhere, I've started heavily considering dropping it to 1 Aggressor for the movement boost and sticking with just more Intercessors. Give up a ton of bolter shots and T5 majority, sure - but maximizing SIA is what makes DW different - can get basic bolters for cheaper elsewhere, and I think that type of squad is plenty survivable for its job of being a nuisance and clearing screens. I'll have to play and see if its as much fun as the other build I had lol.
I'm really liking 5 intercessors/5 aggressors. The extra survivability against plasma is huge, especially since invulns are harder to set up for Primaris models. Maximizing SIA is great in concept, but if everyone is dead, are you really maximizing SIA?
Just as a case study, I had a game two days ago against DA Hellblasters. They would have been wounding on 2's, rerolling 1's, but instead were wounding on 3's, rerolling 1's. As a result, 3 aggressors lived to double shoot on my turn where none would have if I didn't have majority T5.
JNAProductions wrote: So, I made a Deathwatch and IG list. Mostly Deathwatch, pointwise. Find it here-I'd love to make it better.
I am strongly against the idea of ignoring SIA as a mechanic when it's by far one of the strongest things DW brings. Furthermore, I think there are far better sources of heavy bolter firepower than 16 point Veterans in the first place, especially when the stats and special rules they gain for their DW vet status (and price!) is being ignored. Could take heavy bolters with your AM and get a ton more shots and ablative wounds for the same price without largely ignoring what makes DW unique.
I see your plan here is to combat squad everything so you have a ton of heavy bolters in the backfield plugging away and a fast squad that is majority T5 that can fallback, shoot, and charge all in the same turn if necessary. The biggest issue I have with this, while it sounds neat, is the super inefficient use of DW stratagems. But I am intrigued - I can't see myself bringing 3 such units and combat-squading them, but I do see value in those special rules working together in general. I'd like to hear how they work if you don't mind sharing.
grouchoben wrote:I think assault hellblasters are niche but very good. Run them with assault bolters, and a single aggressor & inceptor and you have a really high quality ground-unit that can move fast, take objectives, ignore CC tie ups and hurt every unit T7 and below. Paired with a dreadnought to trigger ancient's strat for rerolls and you have a very nice kill team tha can manage range, move from cover to cover, and burn down targets.
I think assault hellblasters are niche but very good for other SM chapters, but for DW, special issue ammo encroaches a bit more on the role those assault plasma incinerators play. I'm not entirely sure they're all that useful when you can already wound anything not a vehicle on 2s, or you can approach their AP values with vengeance rounds (albeit with the RF bolt rifles). I'll need to play a bit with them to give it a shot - you may be right here and they're worth considering.
Skhmt wrote: Is 5 intercessor with stalker bolt rifles, 4 hellblasters with heavy plasma, and 1 aggressor worth the points?
In my opinion, no. I don't think the heavy versions of bolt rifles or plasma incinerators are as good as the rapid fire or assault versions. One marginally better shot is never as good as two shots. GW doesn't understand that really basic fact, so they charge more points for worse guns. Avoid.
On top of that you're paying 37 points for an aggressor just so the unit can move and shoot - which rapid fire guys could do for free - and you've got no inceptor so you can't fall back and shoot.
Going to echo exactly this. I know folks like stalkers (or maybe they just like the idea of stalkers), but with such a limited weight of fire they are not worth it at all.
Maybe they can be effective if you drop the hellblasters because what's the point of inflating the cost of this unit even more if you're using the Intercessors to target the same things you would normally want to throw the plasma at. Also ditch the Aggressor who will never shoot if you're trying to stay at max range anyway. Park the squad in cover and never ever move it, because honestly what's the point of adding mobility to a unit with a 42'' threat range at AP -2 anyway?
You'd still find more damage out of rapid fire, though.
That's why I like auto bolt rifles for intercessors. They aren't ever really worse than the rapid fire option, but you're faster and can hit twice from further away.
They also benefit from the Aggressor's buff, making them especially worth considering if you plan on mixing Aggressors in with your Intercessors.
Yeah exactly.
I think it makes sense to have auto rifles in intergressor squads and standard rifles with heltercessors - which is my new favourite word. Have an inceptor, 5 intercessors and 4 aggressors/hellblasters in each squad.
To keep points down so that they can be used on SIA weapons elsewhere, I've started heavily considering dropping it to 1 Aggressor for the movement boost and sticking with just more Intercessors. Give up a ton of bolter shots and T5 majority, sure - but maximizing SIA is what makes DW different - can get basic bolters for cheaper elsewhere, and I think that type of squad is plenty survivable for its job of being a nuisance and clearing screens. I'll have to play and see if its as much fun as the other build I had lol.
I'm really liking 5 intercessors/5 aggressors. The extra survivability against plasma is huge, especially since invulns are harder to set up for Primaris models. Maximizing SIA is great in concept, but if everyone is dead, are you really maximizing SIA?
Just as a case study, I had a game two days ago against DA Hellblasters. They would have been wounding on 2's, rerolling 1's, but instead were wounding on 3's, rerolling 1's. As a result, 3 aggressors lived to double shoot on my turn where none would have if I didn't have majority T5.
Well, plasma at range doesn't scare me - it's when they get up close and can rapid fire that I start to sweat. As I mentioned earlier on, I had a ton of success with the 5 Intercessors 5 Aggressors, but I'm just spitballing to see if there are ways I can maximize SIA more while also taking the target off this unit's back. I could then just spend the savings elsewhere on a cheap screen to avoid what tends to kill me the most - fast moving plasma/drop plasma. If they can't rapid fire, they are searching for another target or having a go with half the shots. I'm okay with that exchange.
But I think I'll just end up falling back on the majority T5 unit since it was just so much fun lol
Primark G wrote: If I run a relic Leviathan do I have to take a DWHS unit as well?
Yes you are required one other heavy support. You can always slot in another mortis dreadnought for more anti-tank which would not be a bad call. Or if you wanted to go cheap you could bring a rapier battery.
JNAProductions wrote: So, I made a Deathwatch and IG list. Mostly Deathwatch, pointwise. Find it here-I'd love to make it better.
I am strongly against the idea of ignoring SIA as a mechanic when it's by far one of the strongest things DW brings. Furthermore, I think there are far better sources of heavy bolter firepower than 16 point Veterans in the first place, especially when the stats and special rules they gain for their DW vet status (and price!) is being ignored. Could take heavy bolters with your AM and get a ton more shots and ablative wounds for the same price without largely ignoring what makes DW unique.
I see your plan here is to combat squad everything so you have a ton of heavy bolters in the backfield plugging away and a fast squad that is majority T5 that can fallback, shoot, and charge all in the same turn if necessary. The biggest issue I have with this, while it sounds neat, is the super inefficient use of DW stratagems. But I am intrigued - I can't see myself bringing 3 such units and combat-squading them, but I do see value in those special rules working together in general. I'd like to hear how they work if you don't mind sharing.
I was thinking about replacing the Heavy Bolters with Stalker Bolters instead. Think that'd be better?
JNAProductions wrote: So, I made a Deathwatch and IG list. Mostly Deathwatch, pointwise. Find it here-I'd love to make it better.
I am strongly against the idea of ignoring SIA as a mechanic when it's by far one of the strongest things DW brings. Furthermore, I think there are far better sources of heavy bolter firepower than 16 point Veterans in the first place, especially when the stats and special rules they gain for their DW vet status (and price!) is being ignored. Could take heavy bolters with your AM and get a ton more shots and ablative wounds for the same price without largely ignoring what makes DW unique.
I see your plan here is to combat squad everything so you have a ton of heavy bolters in the backfield plugging away and a fast squad that is majority T5 that can fallback, shoot, and charge all in the same turn if necessary. The biggest issue I have with this, while it sounds neat, is the super inefficient use of DW stratagems. But I am intrigued - I can't see myself bringing 3 such units and combat-squading them, but I do see value in those special rules working together in general. I'd like to hear how they work if you don't mind sharing.
I was thinking about replacing the Heavy Bolters with Stalker Bolters instead. Think that'd be better?
I think that would make them better at the job you want them to do, but this is still just a T4 3+ unit with 1 w models and limited mobility that seems like you're only bringing along because you want bikes that can fall back and shoot again (for whatever that's worth). At least with stalker pattern bolters, you can reach AP -3 at like 24'' with vengeance rounds - or stick with the AP -1 wounding on 2s, which is pretty valuable I think. Still not very mobile and still pretty easy to remove, but I see what you're trying to do and I think you might be able to mitigate those things based on what you tie up with your bikes etc.
I may have been a bit too harsh on the heavy bolter idea. Since they are of course the only marines in your force one or two gives you access to the stratagem, and that shouldn't really be ignored.
JNAProductions wrote: So, I made a Deathwatch and IG list. Mostly Deathwatch, pointwise. Find it here-I'd love to make it better.
I am strongly against the idea of ignoring SIA as a mechanic when it's by far one of the strongest things DW brings. Furthermore, I think there are far better sources of heavy bolter firepower than 16 point Veterans in the first place, especially when the stats and special rules they gain for their DW vet status (and price!) is being ignored. Could take heavy bolters with your AM and get a ton more shots and ablative wounds for the same price without largely ignoring what makes DW unique.
I see your plan here is to combat squad everything so you have a ton of heavy bolters in the backfield plugging away and a fast squad that is majority T5 that can fallback, shoot, and charge all in the same turn if necessary. The biggest issue I have with this, while it sounds neat, is the super inefficient use of DW stratagems. But I am intrigued - I can't see myself bringing 3 such units and combat-squading them, but I do see value in those special rules working together in general. I'd like to hear how they work if you don't mind sharing.
grouchoben wrote:I think assault hellblasters are niche but very good. Run them with assault bolters, and a single aggressor & inceptor and you have a really high quality ground-unit that can move fast, take objectives, ignore CC tie ups and hurt every unit T7 and below. Paired with a dreadnought to trigger ancient's strat for rerolls and you have a very nice kill team tha can manage range, move from cover to cover, and burn down targets.
I think assault hellblasters are niche but very good for other SM chapters, but for DW, special issue ammo encroaches a bit more on the role those assault plasma incinerators play. I'm not entirely sure they're all that useful when you can already wound anything not a vehicle on 2s, or you can approach their AP values with vengeance rounds (albeit with the RF bolt rifles). I'll need to play a bit with them to give it a shot - you may be right here and they're worth considering.
Skhmt wrote: Is 5 intercessor with stalker bolt rifles, 4 hellblasters with heavy plasma, and 1 aggressor worth the points?
In my opinion, no. I don't think the heavy versions of bolt rifles or plasma incinerators are as good as the rapid fire or assault versions. One marginally better shot is never as good as two shots. GW doesn't understand that really basic fact, so they charge more points for worse guns. Avoid.
On top of that you're paying 37 points for an aggressor just so the unit can move and shoot - which rapid fire guys could do for free - and you've got no inceptor so you can't fall back and shoot.
Going to echo exactly this. I know folks like stalkers (or maybe they just like the idea of stalkers), but with such a limited weight of fire they are not worth it at all.
Maybe they can be effective if you drop the hellblasters because what's the point of inflating the cost of this unit even more if you're using the Intercessors to target the same things you would normally want to throw the plasma at. Also ditch the Aggressor who will never shoot if you're trying to stay at max range anyway. Park the squad in cover and never ever move it, because honestly what's the point of adding mobility to a unit with a 42'' threat range at AP -2 anyway?
You'd still find more damage out of rapid fire, though.
That's why I like auto bolt rifles for intercessors. They aren't ever really worse than the rapid fire option, but you're faster and can hit twice from further away.
They also benefit from the Aggressor's buff, making them especially worth considering if you plan on mixing Aggressors in with your Intercessors.
Yeah exactly.
I think it makes sense to have auto rifles in intergressor squads and standard rifles with heltercessors - which is my new favourite word. Have an inceptor, 5 intercessors and 4 aggressors/hellblasters in each squad.
To keep points down so that they can be used on SIA weapons elsewhere, I've started heavily considering dropping it to 1 Aggressor for the movement boost and sticking with just more Intercessors. Give up a ton of bolter shots and T5 majority, sure - but maximizing SIA is what makes DW different - can get basic bolters for cheaper elsewhere, and I think that type of squad is plenty survivable for its job of being a nuisance and clearing screens. I'll have to play and see if its as much fun as the other build I had lol.
I'm really liking 5 intercessors/5 aggressors. The extra survivability against plasma is huge, especially since invulns are harder to set up for Primaris models. Maximizing SIA is great in concept, but if everyone is dead, are you really maximizing SIA?
Just as a case study, I had a game two days ago against DA Hellblasters. They would have been wounding on 2's, rerolling 1's, but instead were wounding on 3's, rerolling 1's. As a result, 3 aggressors lived to double shoot on my turn where none would have if I didn't have majority T5.
Well, plasma at range doesn't scare me - it's when they get up close and can rapid fire that I start to sweat. As I mentioned earlier on, I had a ton of success with the 5 Intercessors 5 Aggressors, but I'm just spitballing to see if there are ways I can maximize SIA more while also taking the target off this unit's back. I could then just spend the savings elsewhere on a cheap screen to avoid what tends to kill me the most - fast moving plasma/drop plasma. If they can't rapid fire, they are searching for another target or having a go with half the shots. I'm okay with that exchange.
But I think I'll just end up falling back on the majority T5 unit since it was just so much fun lol
I do think that's a good unit. I think it can be massively improved by replacing one of the aggressors with an inceptor though. That ability to fall back and shoot is immense for a 300 point unit - especially one that functions at close range. And you can also use him to get assaults off, by having him bound forward to the edge of coherency. Finally, an inceptor actually has very decent firepower for his price - especially with 9 meatshields.
I do think that's a good unit. I think it can be massively improved by replacing one of the aggressors with an inceptor though. That ability to fall back and shoot is immense for a 300 point unit - especially one that functions at close range. And you can also use him to get assaults off, by having him bound forward to the edge of coherency. Finally, an inceptor actually has very decent firepower for his price - especially with 9 meatshields.
Sorry, I misspoke. The inceptor was included when I played. For the very reasons you mentioned. The unit didn't get charged, so sadly his bonus was wasted, but you can never discount assault bolters - though I was thinking I should consider giving him some oomph with plasma instead. We'll see..
10 Ratlings are 90 points, not 70. Also, they are trash. Your entire AT firepower is four Lascannons. Like, what the heck are you going to do vs even three Leman Russes?
You are also burning up a lot of points trying to make your sacrificial screening units good at close combat, which even with Straken, the Catachan trait, and a Priest, they are not. Also, forty Guardsmen get picked up in a single round of shooting. You're going to get almost no return on the CC buffs you've invested in.
You have no psychic defense.
You have an okay amount of anti horde with the bikes, but not enough to deal with really big hordes like 90+ Boyz or cultists.
Suggestions. Go Cadian and remove the Lascannons from the infantry. Their purpose is to die and hold backfield objectives.
Drop all but one Heavy Bolter on your kill teams. Keep it around mostly for the Stratagem. Drop the Ratlings.
Use all the saved points to get some credible AT in your list, either from the DW side or the Guard side.
You need to look at what is the reason for DW in the list. ATM your army looks hodge podge. Your guard seem to want to be screens but not screens cause have expensive heavy weapons and snipers and you have a priest etc? Look at your DW characters: You have taken dominus aegis (so want to stand still, yet your units don't have awesome enough fire power to stand still a lot and you prob need your DW to take forward objectives, so will be moving).
You have put storm shields on your Vanguard vets? (they are the guys that let you fall back and still shoot) you want S.S on your cheaper vets. I am unsure why you have taken so many bikers? Bikes are not that good. At max I run 1 biker and 1 Vanguard (maybe a termie etc, all depends on my goal for the unit), rest are all vets. Why? cause vets can give hit if need hit (shooting and somewhat melee) and be a meat shield if need. A bike is 29pts (25+twin bolt), 2x vet with Boltguns & Chainswords is 34 (in a unit, more attacks, better survive against multi-damage weapons, T5 won't matter etc and can tailor a Vet to what need. In your case want longer range shooting...is crazy). A vanguard is way better for a kill team in viability than a biker (the kill team strength is shooting with ok melee as a bonus).
I think you should rethink what you want each unit to do and what you want your DW to do.
If want a fire support DW unit (not a move and grab an objective etc), one that I run a lot and has done well is (not saying take but if want a DW fire support unit). This is one a I have taken to great effect:
Reasons:
1. Never take 10 man units, some tourneys give points for killing 10 man units etc.
2. Has a good unit range.
3. The storm shields and plebs means some ok meat shields.
4. The Vanguard may seem a waste but for 19pts if get deep struck against etc can fall back and still shoot.
5. The termie is ok (expensive) but can be last model removed (with vanguard and the vet missile), fearless so.
6. The black shield gives an extra attack, but unit must heroic intervine. If the enemy is that close you want to pile in, can fall back on your turn cause have vanguard vet.
7. I run all my sergs with xeno (for fluff) would drop it if going pts efficient.
However, this is just a fire support unit, if want a mid field camper/taker or a forward assault unit (prob what you need if re-configure your guard) totally different.
I second the psychic defense issue. While the AM screen is meant to eat up those smites before it hits your 20+ ppmDW units, it's important to have something that can protect against other psychic threats or deny some of your opponent's buffs. One librarian or a couple primaris psykers should be a good start.
Agreed on removing the lascannons from the infantry squads, but I disagree on the infantry squad use and regiment. This list includes DW with almost all heavy weapons that are there to reach out and touch things from range - they should be the ones to hold backfield objectives. The infantry should be used to screen out deep strikers, bubblewrap the DW guys in the back, push back rapid fire high damage weapons so they're less effective against the marines, eat smites from psykers all day long, and push back big blob melee units so that they can be contained easier.
Since the list seems focused on trying to maximize the combat squad ability by including obsec bikers that can fallback, shoot, and charge back in - I don't see why the DW backline couldn't be mostly immobile if bubble-wrapped sufficiently. I'm not gonna say the combat squad idea is the best way to go, but with that in mind I think the suggestions in the two comments above are a great starting point to tweaking this list to be a bit more effective while trying to keep the vision you were trying to go for in the first place.
10 Ratlings are 90 points, not 70. Also, they are trash. Your entire AT firepower is four Lascannons. Like, what the heck are you going to do vs even three Leman Russes?
You are also burning up a lot of points trying to make your sacrificial screening units good at close combat, which even with Straken, the Catachan trait, and a Priest, they are not. Also, forty Guardsmen get picked up in a single round of shooting. You're going to get almost no return on the CC buffs you've invested in.
You have no psychic defense.
You have an okay amount of anti horde with the bikes, but not enough to deal with really big hordes like 90+ Boyz or cultists.
Suggestions. Go Cadian and remove the Lascannons from the infantry. Their purpose is to die and hold backfield objectives.
Drop all but one Heavy Bolter on your kill teams. Keep it around mostly for the Stratagem. Drop the Ratlings.
Use all the saved points to get some credible AT in your list, either from the DW side or the Guard side.
Leman Russes should probably be punched in general, since shooting them with marines is typically folly in my experience. You'll never win that shoot out.
I think you should rethink what you want each unit to do and what you want your DW to do.
If want a fire support DW unit (not a move and grab an objective etc), one that I run a lot and has done well is (not saying take but if want a DW fire support unit). This is one a I have taken to great effect:
I think the poster HAS thought about what they want the DW to do, that's why they're using combat squads to achieve both roles. Bikes and VV break off of each squad and now you have three swift Obsec units to move and grab objectives while the three fire support veterans staying behind. Sure, not many ablative wounds for either squads, but you have 3 individual squads for both roles, giving you a pretty decent amount of tactical flexibility. I personally dislike it because I am a fan of larger units for stratagems, and thus would kit these guys out completely differently, but the vision the list builder has is clear.
I would also like to point out that most tournaments (particularly ITC format ones) don't give points for killing 10 man units - they do it for 10 MODEL units. That's an important distinction. It means you can take a 10 man infantry squad but add in a heavy weapon team like a mortar to deny your opponent these points. Its 10 men, but 9 models. As such, don't be afraid of adding a 10 man Vet squad into your list if you intend to combat squad it at deployment.
Leman Russes should probably be punched in general, since shooting them with marines is typically folly in my experience. You'll never win that shoot out.
This 10 model unit thing in ITC tournaments is really weird - as is the fact you can get around it by putting a mortar in your unit. UK tournaments don't seem to use this convention so far as I've seen. What is it meant to achieve?
I wouldn't bother with IG for smite protection. Smite spam is kind of dead anyway, and intercessors (even DW ones) are only 10ppw. That's not as cheap as guardsmen of course, but it's not so expensive that you really need to worry about it. In most cases, smiting intercessors isn't particularly efficient.
Meanwhile your expensive stuff, like bikers, is likely to overtake your screens anyway - so there's not a lot you can do to help them - other than shoot the psykers.
Of course, IG are still potentially a good add on for deathwatch - as they are for any imperial army. Leman Russ, Basilisks and Manticores give you the heavy firepower that you need. Infantry squads (and mortar HWTs) can sit on back field objectives. Scout sentinels can scout. An army based around a Deathwatch battalion and an IG brigade - if affordable - could be good. Otherwise an IG spearhead, or potentially even a super heavy, could be useful. The superheavy should probably be tallarn so it can start off board.
Little thought that ran through my friend's head and I will be testing it this weekend.
5 x Vets with Storm Bolter/Storm Shield (SWAT style)
1 x Bike
4 x Vanguard Vets (PS/SS, PA/SS. HTH, Dual Claws)
Move forward with plenty of firepower and protection.
At the last moment, use the stratagem to combat squad, detach the bike and Vanguard and charge. With the bike you keep the option to fall back, shoot with the first squad and charge again.
Storm Bolters are cheap and double a Vet's firepower.
I think you should rethink what you want each unit to do and what you want your DW to do.
If want a fire support DW unit (not a move and grab an objective etc), one that I run a lot and has done well is (not saying take but if want a DW fire support unit). This is one a I have taken to great effect:
I think the poster HAS thought about what they want the DW to do, that's why they're using combat squads to achieve both roles. Bikes and VV break off of each squad and now you have three swift Obsec units to move and grab objectives while the three fire support veterans staying behind. Sure, not many ablative wounds for either squads, but you have 3 individual squads for both roles, giving you a pretty decent amount of tactical flexibility. I personally dislike it because I am a fan of larger units for stratagems, and thus would kit these guys out completely differently, but the vision the list builder has is clear.
I would also like to point out that most tournaments (particularly ITC format ones) don't give points for killing 10 man units - they do it for 10 MODEL units. That's an important distinction. It means you can take a 10 man infantry squad but add in a heavy weapon team like a mortar to deny your opponent these points. Its 10 men, but 9 models. As such, don't be afraid of adding a 10 man Vet squad into your list if you intend to combat squad it at deployment.
Leman Russes should probably be punched in general, since shooting them with marines is typically folly in my experience. You'll never win that shoot out.
We absolutely agree here.
IDK about the 10 man units thing. I find it safer to always make them 9 man max so don't have to debate anything. The combat squad? why combat squad when you are just losing Sergs and BS? (which are free), if want the point/extra unit/ability just make a 5 man and add a VV or a biker they can be the last to die so can move max when need? I see why it maybe a thing, but I think the negative out weights the positive. Moreover, the DW die like marines so current setup is moot.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Erik_Morkai wrote: Little thought that ran through my friend's head and I will be testing it this weekend.
5 x Vets with Storm Bolter/Storm Shield (SWAT style)
1 x Bike
4 x Vanguard Vets (PS/SS, PA/SS. HTH, Dual Claws)
Move forward with plenty of firepower and protection.
At the last moment, use the stratagem to combat squad, detach the bike and Vanguard and charge. With the bike you keep the option to fall back, shoot with the first squad and charge again.
Storm Bolters are cheap and double a Vet's firepower.
IDK if storm bolters are cheap (makes them 20ppm above 17 and with SS is 25) is a 286pts unit approx (there is alot better shooting/melee units for DW at that points cost) but could be awesome let us know how it goes.
IDK about the 10 man units thing. I find it safer to always make them 9 man max so don't have to debate anything. The combat squad? why combat squad when you are just losing Sergs and BS? (which are free), if want the point/extra unit/ability just make a 5 man and add a VV or a biker they can be the last to die so can move max when need? I see why it maybe a thing, but I think the negative out weights the positive. Moreover, the DW die like marines so current setup is moot.
Taking them as troops grants the bikers objective secured, which can be the difference between victory and defeat. Its much more important IMHO that a free sergeant.
IDK about the 10 man units thing. I find it safer to always make them 9 man max so don't have to debate anything. The combat squad? why combat squad when you are just losing Sergs and BS? (which are free), if want the point/extra unit/ability just make a 5 man and add a VV or a biker they can be the last to die so can move max when need? I see why it maybe a thing, but I think the negative out weights the positive. Moreover, the DW die like marines so current setup is moot.
Taking them as troops grants the bikers objective secured, which can be the difference between victory and defeat. Its much more important IMHO that a free sergeant.
I ment taking a vet squad + a bike (which is crazy just take a vet + a vanguard tbh, but personal opinion)
Automatically Appended Next Post: I have enough models that I could play test both, but I can see the bikes are gunna fail so not gunna bother. But each to own. I do hope goes well.
To the guy running quad mortars.... I also have like 3 quad mortars I am gunna email them to see if the soldiers manning them get SIA on their Bolt pistols (don't think stats will go to A2 and Ld8)
IDK about the 10 man units thing. I find it safer to always make them 9 man max so don't have to debate anything. The combat squad? why combat squad when you are just losing Sergs and BS? (which are free), if want the point/extra unit/ability just make a 5 man and add a VV or a biker they can be the last to die so can move max when need? I see why it maybe a thing, but I think the negative out weights the positive. Moreover, the DW die like marines so current setup is moot.
Taking them as troops grants the bikers objective secured, which can be the difference between victory and defeat. Its much more important IMHO that a free sergeant.
I ment taking a vet squad + a bike (which is crazy just take a vet + a vanguard tbh, but personal opinion)
But he's talking about combat squadding the 5 vets in one squad and splitting off the three bikers and 2 vanguards together in the other squad, so that the biker/vanguard squad can move fast (12-14"), is T5 overall, shoots well, fights ok, and can fall back from combat and still shoot and charge and has objective secured. Its a different kettle of fish to "add a bike to a vet squad"
IDK about the 10 man units thing. I find it safer to always make them 9 man max so don't have to debate anything. The combat squad? why combat squad when you are just losing Sergs and BS? (which are free), if want the point/extra unit/ability just make a 5 man and add a VV or a biker they can be the last to die so can move max when need? I see why it maybe a thing, but I think the negative out weights the positive. Moreover, the DW die like marines so current setup is moot.
Taking them as troops grants the bikers objective secured, which can be the difference between victory and defeat. Its much more important IMHO that a free sergeant.
I ment taking a vet squad + a bike (which is crazy just take a vet + a vanguard tbh, but personal opinion)
But he's talking about combat squadding the 5 vets in one squad and splitting off the three bikers and 2 vanguards together in the other squad, so that the biker/vanguard squad can move fast (12-14"), is T5 overall, shoots well, fights ok, and can fall back from combat and still shoot and charge and has objective secured. Its a different kettle of fish to "add a bike to a vet squad"
Ye I get it. Let me know how that rolls. With the setup I just don't see it being worth it.
I think you should rethink what you want each unit to do and what you want your DW to do.
If want a fire support DW unit (not a move and grab an objective etc), one that I run a lot and has done well is (not saying take but if want a DW fire support unit). This is one a I have taken to great effect:
I think the poster HAS thought about what they want the DW to do, that's why they're using combat squads to achieve both roles. Bikes and VV break off of each squad and now you have three swift Obsec units to move and grab objectives while the three fire support veterans staying behind. Sure, not many ablative wounds for either squads, but you have 3 individual squads for both roles, giving you a pretty decent amount of tactical flexibility. I personally dislike it because I am a fan of larger units for stratagems, and thus would kit these guys out completely differently, but the vision the list builder has is clear.
I would also like to point out that most tournaments (particularly ITC format ones) don't give points for killing 10 man units - they do it for 10 MODEL units. That's an important distinction. It means you can take a 10 man infantry squad but add in a heavy weapon team like a mortar to deny your opponent these points. Its 10 men, but 9 models. As such, don't be afraid of adding a 10 man Vet squad into your list if you intend to combat squad it at deployment.
Leman Russes should probably be punched in general, since shooting them with marines is typically folly in my experience. You'll never win that shoot out.
We absolutely agree here.
IDK about the 10 man units thing. I find it safer to always make them 9 man max so don't have to debate anything. The combat squad? why combat squad when you are just losing Sergs and BS? (which are free), if want the point/extra unit/ability just make a 5 man and add a VV or a biker they can be the last to die so can move max when need? I see why it maybe a thing, but I think the negative out weights the positive. Moreover, the DW die like marines so current setup is moot.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Erik_Morkai wrote: Little thought that ran through my friend's head and I will be testing it this weekend.
5 x Vets with Storm Bolter/Storm Shield (SWAT style)
1 x Bike
4 x Vanguard Vets (PS/SS, PA/SS. HTH, Dual Claws)
Move forward with plenty of firepower and protection.
At the last moment, use the stratagem to combat squad, detach the bike and Vanguard and charge. With the bike you keep the option to fall back, shoot with the first squad and charge again.
Storm Bolters are cheap and double a Vet's firepower.
IDK if storm bolters are cheap (makes them 20ppm above 17 and with SS is 25) is a 286pts unit approx (there is alot better shooting/melee units for DW at that points cost) but could be awesome let us know how it goes.
Why combat squad? Because the list builder wants to.
No point ignoring their vision when giving suggestions - not every single person here is building an army to win tournaments. Some people actually play this game to have fun in ways that don't inside WAAC.
Martel732 wrote: Can someone link the ruleset where this 10 v 9 unit size matters? I've never played like this before.
The Reaper: Earn a point for every enemy unit that is destroyed that began the game with 10+ models. If a unit begins the game with 20+ models, you earn 2 points if it is destroyed.
I agree it's important to consider building for whatever tournament you're playing in, but let's not go overboard and make sweeping declarations on list building unless it actually applies, eh?
You want to limit the ease by which the enemy can achieve points on you. ITC missions like these (not this specific one) is why the Adepticon 7 Flyrants list was trash at LVO.
I think you should rethink what you want each unit to do and what you want your DW to do.
If want a fire support DW unit (not a move and grab an objective etc), one that I run a lot and has done well is (not saying take but if want a DW fire support unit). This is one a I have taken to great effect:
I think the poster HAS thought about what they want the DW to do, that's why they're using combat squads to achieve both roles. Bikes and VV break off of each squad and now you have three swift Obsec units to move and grab objectives while the three fire support veterans staying behind. Sure, not many ablative wounds for either squads, but you have 3 individual squads for both roles, giving you a pretty decent amount of tactical flexibility. I personally dislike it because I am a fan of larger units for stratagems, and thus would kit these guys out completely differently, but the vision the list builder has is clear.
I would also like to point out that most tournaments (particularly ITC format ones) don't give points for killing 10 man units - they do it for 10 MODEL units. That's an important distinction. It means you can take a 10 man infantry squad but add in a heavy weapon team like a mortar to deny your opponent these points. Its 10 men, but 9 models. As such, don't be afraid of adding a 10 man Vet squad into your list if you intend to combat squad it at deployment.
Leman Russes should probably be punched in general, since shooting them with marines is typically folly in my experience. You'll never win that shoot out.
We absolutely agree here.
IDK about the 10 man units thing. I find it safer to always make them 9 man max so don't have to debate anything. The combat squad? why combat squad when you are just losing Sergs and BS? (which are free), if want the point/extra unit/ability just make a 5 man and add a VV or a biker they can be the last to die so can move max when need? I see why it maybe a thing, but I think the negative out weights the positive. Moreover, the DW die like marines so current setup is moot.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Erik_Morkai wrote: Little thought that ran through my friend's head and I will be testing it this weekend.
5 x Vets with Storm Bolter/Storm Shield (SWAT style)
1 x Bike
4 x Vanguard Vets (PS/SS, PA/SS. HTH, Dual Claws)
Move forward with plenty of firepower and protection.
At the last moment, use the stratagem to combat squad, detach the bike and Vanguard and charge. With the bike you keep the option to fall back, shoot with the first squad and charge again.
Storm Bolters are cheap and double a Vet's firepower.
IDK if storm bolters are cheap (makes them 20ppm above 17 and with SS is 25) is a 286pts unit approx (there is alot better shooting/melee units for DW at that points cost) but could be awesome let us know how it goes.
Why combat squad? Because the list builder wants to.
No point ignoring their vision when giving suggestions - not every single person here is building an army to win tournaments. Some people actually play this game to have fun in ways that don't inside WAAC.
I have always played for fun ( I have around 13k+ since 7th hit for this army because I love it). The suggestions have been if want to tourny, but if want to fun it just go for it. I am no expert as well, do what want to do. This is my fav army (apart from LoD) and I a building all 3 ordoes (my SoB is my biggest and collected since came out (sold about 12k+pts), alas will get new models soon, yay and sigh. Lets se how the dice fall.
Moreover, all my points are a suggestion, Not that I do it in my lists for 2k (my 1 squad but is altered to my unit /objective need) I am just offering opinions to be debated and I am glad that you clarified it. Cheers mate
I think you should rethink what you want each unit to do and what you want your DW to do.
If want a fire support DW unit (not a move and grab an objective etc), one that I run a lot and has done well is (not saying take but if want a DW fire support unit). This is one a I have taken to great effect:
I think the poster HAS thought about what they want the DW to do, that's why they're using combat squads to achieve both roles. Bikes and VV break off of each squad and now you have three swift Obsec units to move and grab objectives while the three fire support veterans staying behind. Sure, not many ablative wounds for either squads, but you have 3 individual squads for both roles, giving you a pretty decent amount of tactical flexibility. I personally dislike it because I am a fan of larger units for stratagems, and thus would kit these guys out completely differently, but the vision the list builder has is clear.
I would also like to point out that most tournaments (particularly ITC format ones) don't give points for killing 10 man units - they do it for 10 MODEL units. That's an important distinction. It means you can take a 10 man infantry squad but add in a heavy weapon team like a mortar to deny your opponent these points. Its 10 men, but 9 models. As such, don't be afraid of adding a 10 man Vet squad into your list if you intend to combat squad it at deployment.
Leman Russes should probably be punched in general, since shooting them with marines is typically folly in my experience. You'll never win that shoot out.
We absolutely agree here.
IDK about the 10 man units thing. I find it safer to always make them 9 man max so don't have to debate anything. The combat squad? why combat squad when you are just losing Sergs and BS? (which are free), if want the point/extra unit/ability just make a 5 man and add a VV or a biker they can be the last to die so can move max when need? I see why it maybe a thing, but I think the negative out weights the positive. Moreover, the DW die like marines so current setup is moot.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Erik_Morkai wrote: Little thought that ran through my friend's head and I will be testing it this weekend.
5 x Vets with Storm Bolter/Storm Shield (SWAT style)
1 x Bike
4 x Vanguard Vets (PS/SS, PA/SS. HTH, Dual Claws)
Move forward with plenty of firepower and protection.
At the last moment, use the stratagem to combat squad, detach the bike and Vanguard and charge. With the bike you keep the option to fall back, shoot with the first squad and charge again.
Storm Bolters are cheap and double a Vet's firepower.
IDK if storm bolters are cheap (makes them 20ppm above 17 and with SS is 25) is a 286pts unit approx (there is alot better shooting/melee units for DW at that points cost) but could be awesome let us know how it goes.
Why combat squad? Because the list builder wants to.
No point ignoring their vision when giving suggestions - not every single person here is building an army to win tournaments. Some people actually play this game to have fun in ways that don't inside WAAC.
I have always played for fun ( I have around 13k+ since 7th hit for this army because I love it). The suggestions have been if want to tourny, but if want to fun it just go for it. I am no expert as well, do what want to do. This is my fav army (apart from LoD) and I a building all 3 ordoes (my SoB is my biggest and collected since came out (sold about 12k+pts), alas will get new models soon, yay and sigh. Lets se how the dice fall.
Moreover, all my points are a suggestion, Not that I do it in my lists for 2k (my 1 squad but is altered to my unit /objective need) I am just offering opinions to be debated and I am glad that you clarified it. Cheers mate
All of that's fine. At the same time, this is the 40k tactics forum, so you should expect to see people querying or suggesting tactics. You're free to answer that you're doing something for rule of cool reasons. There's no foul here.
Personally I'm a dead-eyed WAAC tournament junkie. There's room for everyone.
So what deteremines which mission pack gets used? And why would anyone use the champion's missions over combined arms?
Good question. I think that's interesting. I've only ever seen the first pack used - suppose it depends on the tournaments in your area?
In any case, moral of the story is build for the tournament missions - unless you're just discussing tactics, then I don't see it helping much to apply those lessons outside that context.
So what deteremines which mission pack gets used? And why would anyone use the champion's missions over combined arms?
Champions is used at all the major ITC events. IE LVO, BAO, Socal Open.
It's got its advantages. Fixed objectives placement and choosing secondaries based on your opponents list are both really good. I despise the pseudo-KP End of Round Primary Objective though. Overall, I like them as a competitive mission format.
UGH. I really like the combined arms missions much better. Yes, people can game by placing their own objectives, but I dislike any form of KP at all. However, some of the list building on here makes more sense now.
I'm still struggling to find a way to use the SIA w/ primaris and NOT lose my ass to Drukhari and Tau. And that's not even counting overcharge plasma.
Martel732 wrote: UGH. I really like the combined arms missions much better. Yes, people can game by placing their own objectives, but I dislike any form of KP at all. However, some of the list building on here makes more sense now.
I'm still struggling to find a way to use the SIA w/ primaris and NOT lose my ass to Drukhari and Tau. And that's not even counting overcharge plasma.
Sample size of one, but I beat my first DE opponent who had gone 7-0 with his list prior to our game. Leviathan Dread from the teleportarium put in work, as did the 5 Intercessor/5 Aggressor KT in a crater in the centerish portion of the board. Admittedly, his first turn Dark Lance rolls against my Corvus were kind of trash, but he killed a Manticore and deleted my entire guard screen turn one. The mixed KT was on the board but hidden in a large hill he couldnt get his fast movers around. Then I ran the Jump captain up to the center and used the beacon to put them into the craters and teleported the dread just behind that but still in my deployment zone. Eventually, the normal KT disembarked from the Corvus and started frag cannoning Raiders to death. The Storm shields did a lot to absorb his high AP guns which let the FC's put in work. Though by the end of the game, they were down to just 2-3 FC's.
Ended in me almost tabling him. He had two Kabalites hiding in a corner and a character behind a hill.
Not sure of the best place to post this, but I recently got back into the hobby -- and I'm planning on building a DW army. I'm waiting on delivery of the Codex still, but I'm in the process of converting the Primaris side of DI to DW, and I also picked up a Kill Team box. I grabbed the KT box mainly for the chapter specific shoulder pads -- but noticed this thing comes with quite a bit of bits and variety.
I'm looking for advice on some ideal loadouts using the bits from the KT box to convert/modify onto the models from the DI box -- or even trying to gauge if the KT box itself might be worth using for the vets (and any loadout advice there).
So, that being said -- any ideas if there's some solid units I can make from combining the DI box with the KT box? I'm fine with doing some conversion work and also have 2x Deathwatch upgrade sprues to convert the shoulders on all my DI Primaris marines as well.
The weapons in the Kill Team Box are for Vets only and aren't available to the Primaris models in any way. The primary draw to the Vets in general is access to some of the Kill Team special weapons like Frag Cannons and Storm Bolters.
LunarSol wrote: The weapons in the Kill Team Box are for Vets only and aren't available to the Primaris models in any way. The primary draw to the Vets in general is access to some of the Kill Team special weapons like Frag Cannons and Storm Bolters.
Good to know! As I said, I'm still waiting on my codex but wanted to work on some of this over the weekend. Sounds like I'll be assembling vets as normal then . How are HTH's and black shield looking? Would making them assaulty be any good?
LunarSol wrote: The weapons in the Kill Team Box are for Vets only and aren't available to the Primaris models in any way. The primary draw to the Vets in general is access to some of the Kill Team special weapons like Frag Cannons and Storm Bolters.
Good to know! As I said, I'm still waiting on my codex but wanted to work on some of this over the weekend. Sounds like I'll be assembling vets as normal then . How are HTH's and black shield looking? Would making them assaulty be any good?
Can't give an HTH to a Blackshield, part of why they're so terrible is that they can only go on models with two attacks. Black shields could be good in a CC focused squad but I have no experience running CC squads.
If I had to kit out for melee, I'd go for thunder hammers/bolters for damage with some chainsword or Bolter/storm shields to tank high AP and maybe a single Terminator with power sword/storm shield to tank poor AP weapons. Power swords don't really do anything a Boltgun with SIA can do from 9" or a Primaris bolt rifle can do from 12". Chainswords are free, but kitting out a squad with them for chaff clearing doesn't make sense when DW have some of the best ranged chaff clear marines can take. Power axes could potentially put in work when you add in the +1 to wound strat. Wounding most vehicles on 4's rerolling 1's with -2 AP sounds tasty.
Really, I think Deathwatch's niche is close to mid range shooting backed up with the occasional punch in CC. Frag Cannons are good, storm bolters are good, storm shields on regular bolter vets are good. You can't go wrong with those as the core of your veteran collection. I also highly recommend magnetizing your arms so you can try new loadouts on a whim. Normally I don't bother magnetizing infantry, but DW just have so many potential loadouts you'd be doing yourself a disservice long term not to keep your options open.
Corvuses are good if you accept that they are a flying Rhino and you don't factor them into your offensive output.
The HTH in general isn't a great weapon, but its a cool proxy for a regular Thunder Hammer on a Captain or something. Sadly, I don't even think the Black Shield is allowed to take it. :(
Yes it is shame HTH can only be taken on model with 2A.
For the Black Shield, I figure the best loadout on it would be a normal Thurnder Hammer and a chainsword. Giving him 3A with S8 AP-3 D3 against the big guys, or 4A of normal combat weapon for attacking hordes. Or any combination in between.
What Primaris squad mixes have you guys found to be useful?
I am working towards a two battalion all primaris force but I am not sure what I should do for the squads. Personally I would like to mix them up a bit, but I have been wondering should I go for full 10man squads or go for less?
Right now I think I like the following squad:
5xIntercessors Bolt rifles,maybe sgt with sword and aux grenade launcher, 2xHellblasters, 1 each of reivers, aggressors and an inceptor.
What would you say are other useful combos?
Are inceptors worth it or should you shoot you Bolt pistols while tied up in close combat?
I am working towards a two battalion all primaris force but I am not sure what I should do for the squads. Personally I would like to mix them up a bit, but I have been wondering should I go for full 10man squads or go for less?
Right now I think I like the following squad:
5xIntercessors Bolt rifles,maybe sgt with sword and aux grenade launcher, 2xHellblasters, 1 each of reivers, aggressors and an inceptor.
What would you say are other useful combos?
Are inceptors worth it or should you shoot you Bolt pistols while tied up in close combat?
Thanks for any feedback you may have.
I think the role of Primaris kill team should be mid field mobile fire support, while the veteran kill team are either close range shoot / charge with frag cannon, stormbolter or thurnder hammer stormshield, or long range fire support with stalker boltgun and missle launcher and CML terminator.
I am quite torn on the loadout for such role. While the squad composition is quite certain, 5 Intercessors, a few Hellblasters, an Inceptor, if taking assault weapons, then 1 or 2 Aggressors. The loadout however, are choice between assault version weapons or rapid fire ones. The extra strength of the plasma and extra AP of the bolt rifle are great, perfect for killing that Hive Tyrant, Destroyers, Wave Serpents, etc. but they are only superior when being within 15" range. While the extra shot of assault would be better at 24". So well, qiute split between the two thought.
Thanks for the reply, and I agree I am torn as to the best primaris loadout.
I am mainly interested in doing primaris only deathwatch which is why I posted the question.
Would it be worth is the have a mixture of an assault based squad with aggressor and other squads with rapid fire versions?
Just wish I had a clearer answer.
Also would it be best to squeeze in two battalions for 13 command points or keep to a single battalion and add in redemptor dreads and go with a smaller 8 command points and have my warlord take the knowledge of the forbidden trait and try to regain command points that way.
I am more concerned about having enough anti tank using primaris only.
After reading this thread I got the feeling that people think Intercessors is a stronger troop choice than Veterans. However, I prefer Veterans due to the option too mix terminators and normal vets with stormshiled giving the possibility to optimize your save, i.e. 3+ invo saves in high AP multiple wounds hits and 2+ otherwise. The extra abbilites that comes from taking one Vanguard Veteran and a Biker are also great.
Any comments on this?
As a stormbolter is in all respects two bolters, a veteran is 10 points per bolter, with special ammo plus three attacks on the charge and two bonus attacks per squad for the blackshield and sergeant, and that’s before adding any special kit above the obvious stormbolter and chainsword setup.
The only place intercessors win out over that is durability against non-multidamage weaponry. That still makes them useful in and of themselves, especially if you add some specialists, but I’d largely edge towards veterans... Especially once you factor in that holding the line isn’t really what deathwatch are, fluff wise, for. They’re for high intensity surgical strikes.
I am mainly interested in doing primaris only deathwatch which is why I posted the question.
Would it be worth is the have a mixture of an assault based squad with aggressor and other squads with rapid fire versions?
Just wish I had a clearer answer.
Also would it be best to squeeze in two battalions for 13 command points or keep to a single battalion and add in redemptor dreads and go with a smaller 8 command points and have my warlord take the knowledge of the forbidden trait and try to regain command points that way.
I am more concerned about having enough anti tank using primaris only.
I had a lot of success with two simple builds. The first was 5 Intercessors with auto bolt rifles, 4 Aggressors with boltstorm, and 1 auto bolter Inceptor. It's a T5 unit that can fallback and shoot as well as advance without penalty. They were best used aggressively on softer chaff, but remember they can still punch through tough armour since the SIA vengeance rounds share the same range as your Aggressors.
The second is a pretty simple 5 Intercessors with regular old rapid fire bolt rifles and 4 Hellblasters with the rapid fire incinerator along with 1 plasma inceptor. With the Intergressor squad taking long on clearing chaff, these guys targeted tougher things and could work into a better position in the wake of the other squad. They worked just as you'd expect a squad of Hellblasters with ablative wounds would, while they can't be silenced with a charge.
Both have been really successful for me. I haven't yet added flamestorm Aggressors because flamer weapons are really too situational. I also haven't added Reivers because the extra cost on the carbine dissuades me a bit and I don't really care that much about their shock grenades.
Nora wrote: After reading this thread I got the feeling that people think Intercessors is a stronger troop choice than Veterans. However, I prefer Veterans due to the option too mix terminators and normal vets with stormshiled giving the possibility to optimize your save, i.e. 3+ invo saves in high AP multiple wounds hits and 2+ otherwise. The extra abbilites that comes from taking one Vanguard Veteran and a Biker are also great.
Any comments on this?
Intercessors are the new hotness, but Veterans are still amazing as well. I would not take one over the other in exclusion personally. Veterans may have less wounds, but they have greater offensive output, actual transport options that don't put all your eggs in one basket, and have a more reliable source of tanking different types of shots just as you said.
My current veteran build is 4 with SB/CS, 2 with SB/SS, 1 termie with SB/Fist or sword, 2 vets with FC, and 1 VV with dual chainswords. I've been using them as drop troops while the Primaris are the ones holding the fort in the first turn.
I’m not sure what all the enthusiasm for storm shields is: The kinds of firepower good at rapidly clearing lots of marines aren’t going to be held back too much by storm shields.
changemod wrote: I’m not sure what all the enthusiasm for storm shields is: The kinds of firepower good at rapidly clearing lots of marines aren’t going to be held back too much by storm shields.
Aren’t storm shields only 5 pts though? Seems if you’re buying a 200-300pt Vet unit, 1-2 shields aren’t a bad inclusion. I’m still trying to balance the points between my need for more anti tank and wanting the big squad(s) to SIA with, but I was thinking running 1 of the aggressor units and one of Vets to DS in with something like:
1 VV - bolt pistol and chainsword
1 Terminator - storm bolter and power sword
2 Vets - storm bolter and ss 4 vets - storm bolter and chainsword
2 vets - frag cannon
Just all those points aren’t leaving much for putting in hellblasters or RGdev squads for some more AT. I still think SIA shots with the +wound are surprisingly good AT, but it’s an expensive way to do it.
LunarSol wrote: The weapons in the Kill Team Box are for Vets only and aren't available to the Primaris models in any way. The primary draw to the Vets in general is access to some of the Kill Team special weapons like Frag Cannons and Storm Bolters.
Good to know! As I said, I'm still waiting on my codex but wanted to work on some of this over the weekend. Sounds like I'll be assembling vets as normal then . How are HTH's and black shield looking? Would making them assaulty be any good?
Can't give an HTH to a Blackshield, part of why they're so terrible is that they can only go on models with two attacks. Black shields could be good in a CC focused squad but I have no experience running CC squads.
If I had to kit out for melee, I'd go for thunder hammers/bolters for damage with some chainsword or Bolter/storm shields to tank high AP and maybe a single Terminator with power sword/storm shield to tank poor AP weapons. Power swords don't really do anything a Boltgun with SIA can do from 9" or a Primaris bolt rifle can do from 12". Chainswords are free, but kitting out a squad with them for chaff clearing doesn't make sense when DW have some of the best ranged chaff clear marines can take. Power axes could potentially put in work when you add in the +1 to wound strat. Wounding most vehicles on 4's rerolling 1's with -2 AP sounds tasty.
Really, I think Deathwatch's niche is close to mid range shooting backed up with the occasional punch in CC. Frag Cannons are good, storm bolters are good, storm shields on regular bolter vets are good. You can't go wrong with those as the core of your veteran collection. I also highly recommend magnetizing your arms so you can try new loadouts on a whim. Normally I don't bother magnetizing infantry, but DW just have so many potential loadouts you'd be doing yourself a disservice long term not to keep your options open.
Corvuses are good if you accept that they are a flying Rhino and you don't factor them into your offensive output.
Thanks for the breakdown, it certainly helps -- it really is too bad that the HTH seems rather limited :( -- I like the sounds of SS/Bolter vets. I didn't think about magnetizing, but that's also a good point. With all the conversion work I'm going to be doing, I might as well drill a couple of extra holes!
changemod wrote: I’m not sure what all the enthusiasm for storm shields is: The kinds of firepower good at rapidly clearing lots of marines aren’t going to be held back too much by storm shields.
The idé is to take the most of the damage on the terminators and only the high AP multiple wounds on the shield.
Points are hovering a bit over 300.
The first squat has T5 as majority and can advance without penalty to get closer to the chaff they should clear.
The second squad offers some AT with some cheaper wounds around who use kraken ammo to get to the same range as the plasma or hellfire if monsters need killing.
Points are hovering a bit over 300.
The first squat has T5 as majority and can advance without penalty to get closer to the chaff they should clear.
The second squad offers some AT with some cheaper wounds around who use kraken ammo to get to the same range as the plasma or hellfire if monsters need killing.
Any thoughts on how to improve this?
My first question - what constraints are you under? It's assumed you're limited somewhere since you're trying to do it all with one squad.
You could of course split the roles between different squats but why not smash three birds with one stone?
Hellblasters get better with cheaper dudes around.
Aggressors/Interceptors get better with cheaper dudes around and those cheap dudes have T5 effectively.
All in a troop! choice that you could shock in if you really have to.
Watched a few batrep fought between Deathwatch and some Xeno factions. The DW got basically tabled in some games while barely won in other games. Anyway, I found a common pattern which is almost all list includes at least 2 Corvus Blackstar flyer, it looks like this flyer is actually a must have in DW list?
TBH I think this flyer solved certain problems the Deathwatch have: low-mobility and low-survivability, had those "barely won DW list" did not incorporate the flyer to keep the squads inside, I would not be surprised if more than half of the Deathwatch army got wiped in the 1st turn and after that the enemy can just kite them with their superior mobility. However that seems to be their only worthy of the quite helfty of points (2 of them comes in nearly 500pts).... And it hits on 4s only except the hurricane bolter because all other weapons are heavy and it needs to keep flying to stay alive, it sucks when against Tyranids brought up Venomthropes, and those all kind of Eldar are packings cumulative -1 to hit everywhere! So it looks hard to address its high cost.
Neophyte2012 wrote: Watched a few batrep fought between Deathwatch and some Xeno factions. The DW got basically tabled in some games while barely won in other games. Anyway, I found a common pattern which is almost all list includes at least 2 Corvus Blackstar flyer, it looks like this flyer is actually a must have in DW list?
TBH I think this flyer solved certain problems the Deathwatch have: low-mobility and low-survivability, had those "barely won DW list" did not incorporate the flyer to keep the squads inside, I would not be surprised if more than half of the Deathwatch army got wiped in the 1st turn and after that the enemy can just kite them with their superior mobility. However that seems to be their only worthy of the quite helfty of points (2 of them comes in nearly 500pts).... And it hits on 4s only except the hurricane bolter because all other weapons are heavy and it needs to keep flying to stay alive, it sucks when against Tyranids brought up Venomthropes, and those all kind of Eldar are packings cumulative -1 to hit everywhere! So it looks hard to address its high cost.
Yeah, the Blackstar is the unit I'm most unsure on and what I keep sticking on in debating between staying RG or repainting some arms and going DW. As you note, those Blackstars are so spendy and every batrep they missed so many shots. Including them pretty well kills my hope of using my Leviathan dread, too many points. However, without a Blackstar, your army is a bunch of short range walking infantry and the Watch Master can't take a jump pack. You can only stratagem DS so much...
From one of the previews, I first thought Bikes were going to be the obvious go to for non transport/DS units, they implied (or I misheard) that every biker could take a storm bolter. Storm bolter+twin bolter bikes would have been really good, but the biker equipment list kinda sucks.
Neophyte2012 wrote: Watched a few batrep fought between Deathwatch and some Xeno factions. The DW got basically tabled in some games while barely won in other games. Anyway, I found a common pattern which is almost all list includes at least 2 Corvus Blackstar flyer, it looks like this flyer is actually a must have in DW list?
TBH I think this flyer solved certain problems the Deathwatch have: low-mobility and low-survivability, had those "barely won DW list" did not incorporate the flyer to keep the squads inside, I would not be surprised if more than half of the Deathwatch army got wiped in the 1st turn and after that the enemy can just kite them with their superior mobility. However that seems to be their only worthy of the quite helfty of points (2 of them comes in nearly 500pts).... And it hits on 4s only except the hurricane bolter because all other weapons are heavy and it needs to keep flying to stay alive, it sucks when against Tyranids brought up Venomthropes, and those all kind of Eldar are packings cumulative -1 to hit everywhere! So it looks hard to address its high cost.
Neophyte2012 wrote: Watched a few batrep fought between Deathwatch and some Xeno factions. The DW got basically tabled in some games while barely won in other games. Anyway, I found a common pattern which is almost all list includes at least 2 Corvus Blackstar flyer, it looks like this flyer is actually a must have in DW list?
TBH I think this flyer solved certain problems the Deathwatch have: low-mobility and low-survivability, had those "barely won DW list" did not incorporate the flyer to keep the squads inside, I would not be surprised if more than half of the Deathwatch army got wiped in the 1st turn and after that the enemy can just kite them with their superior mobility. However that seems to be their only worthy of the quite helfty of points (2 of them comes in nearly 500pts).... And it hits on 4s only except the hurricane bolter because all other weapons are heavy and it needs to keep flying to stay alive, it sucks when against Tyranids brought up Venomthropes, and those all kind of Eldar are packings cumulative -1 to hit everywhere! So it looks hard to address its high cost.
Did these batreps include allies?
Pure Deathwatch VS pure single factio Xeno, no allies for both sides.
Got back from ITC, played Champion missions. Deathwatch FTW.
Game 1 played triple riptides and triple melta commanders and blobs of fire warriors. Killed 2 riptides and wounded 1 down to 3 wounds in turn 2 and killed all commanders by turn 3. Tau player concede turn 4. Win primary and secondary. The hellfire rounds from intercessor did quite a number on the riptides. Especially when you couple with the mission tactics.
Game 2 played Blood Angel with scouts, captain smashhammer, mephiston and death company vets. Killed all the death company vets by turn 3. Leviathan dread stomped out a lot of vets and frag cannons killed all the captain smashhammer and characters.
Game 3 played Aeldari with 2 blobs of shiny spears, blobs of reapers, an blobs of rangers and yvarine and psychers. Almost got tabled turn turn 2, but manage to kill half of the players army when I deep striked primaris kill teams and leviathan. I conceded turn 4 after only my primaris kill team remains after slaughtering pile of rangers. Killed yvarine, all but 3 reapers, all but 2 shinning spears, all but like 5 rangers, and did not kill any farseers or autarch.
Overall, I'd say Deathwatch got quite a boost with the codex. I ran with one DW battalion and one Admech battalion for CPs. DW is the hammer and Admech is the anvil. Admech with stygies VIII for obj sitting and vehicle sniping. Got away with 2 wins and 1 defeat.
Corvus is not that good TBH, if i run flyer I will run xiphon or fire raptor and maximum dakka. I usually ferry my kill team in either rhino and slug it with other ground pounders or just straight up deep strike and dakka something to death.
Neophyte2012 wrote: Watched a few batrep fought between Deathwatch and some Xeno factions. The DW got basically tabled in some games while barely won in other games. Anyway, I found a common pattern which is almost all list includes at least 2 Corvus Blackstar flyer, it looks like this flyer is actually a must have in DW list?
TBH I think this flyer solved certain problems the Deathwatch have: low-mobility and low-survivability, had those "barely won DW list" did not incorporate the flyer to keep the squads inside, I would not be surprised if more than half of the Deathwatch army got wiped in the 1st turn and after that the enemy can just kite them with their superior mobility. However that seems to be their only worthy of the quite helfty of points (2 of them comes in nearly 500pts).... And it hits on 4s only except the hurricane bolter because all other weapons are heavy and it needs to keep flying to stay alive, it sucks when against Tyranids brought up Venomthropes, and those all kind of Eldar are packings cumulative -1 to hit everywhere! So it looks hard to address its high cost.
Did these batreps include allies?
Pure Deathwatch VS pure single factio Xeno, no allies for both sides.
My concern with any marine army is that a pure force will always lack the screening bodies necessary to really be competitive.
Intercessors are fine for screening. The requirement to always have 3 scout squads out front to soak deep strikers is largely gone with the beta reserves rules.
That isn't to say that an IG battalion would be a bad choice, but it's not a "must have".
Mandragola wrote: Intercessors are fine for screening. The requirement to always have 3 scout squads out front to soak deep strikers is largely gone with the beta reserves rules.
That isn't to say that an IG battalion would be a bad choice, but it's not a "must have".
Probably, yea, screen is not "that important", until you run into Tyranids Kraken Genestealer - Swarmlord slingshot who can reach the units 40" away (46" if they use stratagem to double their advance distance) in their 1st turn. There is also Harlequin who can also advance and charge while gaining unit wise 3++ and -1 to wound, army wise cumulative -1 to hit bringing your Xeno Hunting experts shooting accuracy down to conscripts level, and if they get to shoot / chop at you they delete any marines they target. You might still want to have more turns to shoot them before they come too close.
Neophyte2012 wrote: Watched a few batrep fought between Deathwatch and some Xeno factions. The DW got basically tabled in some games while barely won in other games. Anyway, I found a common pattern which is almost all list includes at least 2 Corvus Blackstar flyer, it looks like this flyer is actually a must have in DW list?
TBH I think this flyer solved certain problems the Deathwatch have: low-mobility and low-survivability, had those "barely won DW list" did not incorporate the flyer to keep the squads inside, I would not be surprised if more than half of the Deathwatch army got wiped in the 1st turn and after that the enemy can just kite them with their superior mobility. However that seems to be their only worthy of the quite helfty of points (2 of them comes in nearly 500pts).... And it hits on 4s only except the hurricane bolter because all other weapons are heavy and it needs to keep flying to stay alive, it sucks when against Tyranids brought up Venomthropes, and those all kind of Eldar are packings cumulative -1 to hit everywhere! So it looks hard to address its high cost.
Yeah, the Blackstar is the unit I'm most unsure on and what I keep sticking on in debating between staying RG or repainting some arms and going DW. As you note, those Blackstars are so spendy and every batrep they missed so many shots. Including them pretty well kills my hope of using my Leviathan dread, too many points. However, without a Blackstar, your army is a bunch of short range walking infantry and the Watch Master can't take a jump pack. You can only stratagem DS so much...
From one of the previews, I first thought Bikes were going to be the obvious go to for non transport/DS units, they implied (or I misheard) that every biker could take a storm bolter. Storm bolter+twin bolter bikes would have been really good, but the biker equipment list kinda sucks.
I'm still going to need to put my money where my mouth is and actually run it instead of theorizing but...
Drop. Pooooooooooooods.
There's loads of ways to get guys onto the table and into range without spending 250 points on a bird that got its wings clipped and head ripped off (because what kind of T7 unit that floats above terrain isn't going to get obliterated on the first turn?) Drop Pods can get all your veterans and your Watch Masters into the fray with a single drop, just as long as you don't need those bikers or vanguards or terminators. I personally don't find the bikers to be that appealing for vet squads since you need 5 of them to make use of their best attribute, and charging after falling back seems like somewhat of a useless attribute, so a Land Raider also doesn't seem to be out of the question. It has more firepower than the Corvus, far more durability than the Corvus, can move and shoot, and can hide behind terrain.
Neophyte2012 wrote: Watched a few batrep fought between Deathwatch and some Xeno factions. The DW got basically tabled in some games while barely won in other games. Anyway, I found a common pattern which is almost all list includes at least 2 Corvus Blackstar flyer, it looks like this flyer is actually a must have in DW list?
TBH I think this flyer solved certain problems the Deathwatch have: low-mobility and low-survivability, had those "barely won DW list" did not incorporate the flyer to keep the squads inside, I would not be surprised if more than half of the Deathwatch army got wiped in the 1st turn and after that the enemy can just kite them with their superior mobility. However that seems to be their only worthy of the quite helfty of points (2 of them comes in nearly 500pts).... And it hits on 4s only except the hurricane bolter because all other weapons are heavy and it needs to keep flying to stay alive, it sucks when against Tyranids brought up Venomthropes, and those all kind of Eldar are packings cumulative -1 to hit everywhere! So it looks hard to address its high cost.
Yeah, the Blackstar is the unit I'm most unsure on and what I keep sticking on in debating between staying RG or repainting some arms and going DW. As you note, those Blackstars are so spendy and every batrep they missed so many shots. Including them pretty well kills my hope of using my Leviathan dread, too many points. However, without a Blackstar, your army is a bunch of short range walking infantry and the Watch Master can't take a jump pack. You can only stratagem DS so much...
From one of the previews, I first thought Bikes were going to be the obvious go to for non transport/DS units, they implied (or I misheard) that every biker could take a storm bolter. Storm bolter+twin bolter bikes would have been really good, but the biker equipment list kinda sucks.
I'm still going to need to put my money where my mouth is and actually run it instead of theorizing but...
Drop. Pooooooooooooods.
There's loads of ways to get guys onto the table and into range without spending 250 points on a bird that got its wings clipped and head ripped off (because what kind of T7 unit that floats above terrain isn't going to get obliterated on the first turn?) Drop Pods can get all your veterans and your Watch Masters into the fray with a single drop, just as long as you don't need those bikers or vanguards or terminators. I personally don't find the bikers to be that appealing for vet squads since you need 5 of them to make use of their best attribute, and charging after falling back seems like somewhat of a useless attribute, so a Land Raider also doesn't seem to be out of the question. It has more firepower than the Corvus, far more durability than the Corvus, can move and shoot, and can hide behind terrain.
By their stats and the weapons on LR is not bad tbh. It is just their points being waaaaayyyy tooooooo overcosted. Both the droppod and the Landraider
Neophyte2012 wrote: Watched a few batrep fought between Deathwatch and some Xeno factions. The DW got basically tabled in some games while barely won in other games. Anyway, I found a common pattern which is almost all list includes at least 2 Corvus Blackstar flyer, it looks like this flyer is actually a must have in DW list?
TBH I think this flyer solved certain problems the Deathwatch have: low-mobility and low-survivability, had those "barely won DW list" did not incorporate the flyer to keep the squads inside, I would not be surprised if more than half of the Deathwatch army got wiped in the 1st turn and after that the enemy can just kite them with their superior mobility. However that seems to be their only worthy of the quite helfty of points (2 of them comes in nearly 500pts).... And it hits on 4s only except the hurricane bolter because all other weapons are heavy and it needs to keep flying to stay alive, it sucks when against Tyranids brought up Venomthropes, and those all kind of Eldar are packings cumulative -1 to hit everywhere! So it looks hard to address its high cost.
Yeah, the Blackstar is the unit I'm most unsure on and what I keep sticking on in debating between staying RG or repainting some arms and going DW. As you note, those Blackstars are so spendy and every batrep they missed so many shots. Including them pretty well kills my hope of using my Leviathan dread, too many points. However, without a Blackstar, your army is a bunch of short range walking infantry and the Watch Master can't take a jump pack. You can only stratagem DS so much...
From one of the previews, I first thought Bikes were going to be the obvious go to for non transport/DS units, they implied (or I misheard) that every biker could take a storm bolter. Storm bolter+twin bolter bikes would have been really good, but the biker equipment list kinda sucks.
I'm still going to need to put my money where my mouth is and actually run it instead of theorizing but...
Drop. Pooooooooooooods.
There's loads of ways to get guys onto the table and into range without spending 250 points on a bird that got its wings clipped and head ripped off (because what kind of T7 unit that floats above terrain isn't going to get obliterated on the first turn?) Drop Pods can get all your veterans and your Watch Masters into the fray with a single drop, just as long as you don't need those bikers or vanguards or terminators. I personally don't find the bikers to be that appealing for vet squads since you need 5 of them to make use of their best attribute, and charging after falling back seems like somewhat of a useless attribute, so a Land Raider also doesn't seem to be out of the question. It has more firepower than the Corvus, far more durability than the Corvus, can move and shoot, and can hide behind terrain.
By their stats and the weapons on LR is not bad tbh. It is just their points being waaaaayyyy tooooooo overcosted. Both the droppod and the Landraider
The Drop Pod I think is costed competitively, at least competitively with its counterpart: the rhino. A Rhino is 72 points. A Drop Pod is 85.
Both have 10 man capacities and have a primary purpose of getting models into good positions. The rhino has an advantage of being able to act outside of its primary purpose, as a roadblock for enemy movement and as something to charge tanks and scary units and tie them up. The Drop Pod has an advantage of not being blown off the table on the first turn, leaving your 10 guys stranded in your deployment zone with a few possible casualties. The Drop Pod is better at its primary purpose as a Rhino, but the Rhino has versatility and can be used for other things after its job is done.
Also, cheese machine, but you can turn a drop pod into a giant pillar to block LOS if you don't open the doors. You can also widen its reach if you do open the doors, preventing units from moving through where it landed. There is nothing in the rules that say the doors need to be open or closed when it lands. Maybe you can even open some of the doors to fulfill a little of both roles.
I dunno on drop pods, paying to lose some of your unit combo options, like the fallback+shoot VV? Well, maybe 1 pod to get the characters down with the DS, the rest could go point free via strat.
Mandragola wrote: Intercessors are fine for screening. The requirement to always have 3 scout squads out front to soak deep strikers is largely gone with the beta reserves rules.
That isn't to say that an IG battalion would be a bad choice, but it's not a "must have".
I personally disagree from experience. The deep strike units that really pose a threat to Primaris are drop plasma. If you don't have the forces available to zone out and push them outside of rapidfire range, they do a lot of harm to your 20+ ppm Intercessor units who don't have easy access to invulns. Likewise, taking mortal wounds from smite (not even smite armies, just a couple of Farseers for example) is better done by a guardsman rather than anything more expensive. These are the biggest weaknesses to going pure DW and they may be able to be overcome with luck and positioning without bringing in allies, but I've found a battalion of cheap crap plugs those weaknesses very quickly. In friendly games, it's not a must have, but I imagine you'll find most forces that include DW on the tournament scene will include that plug and play Guard battalion to plug those holes.
By their stats and the weapons on LR is not bad tbh. It is just their points being waaaaayyyy tooooooo overcosted. Both the droppod and the Landraider
I could see it being worth its price if it had ways around the two biggest issues of Astartes Land Raiders: being silenced by melee touching it, and not benefiting from your mission/chapter/whatever tactics.
Without those, the LR needs bubblewrap to protect it from being rendered useless by a wave serpent flying into it, so it becomes a mess of a unit - it's supposed to be a transport that wants to get close to the enemy to deliver its passengers, but you don't want it to get close since it'll just get tied up and silenced. Sure, it's super durable, but that amounts to nothing whatsoever when its transport job is done for a fraction of the price and the damage is so easily rendered useless.
bort wrote: I dunno on drop pods, paying to lose some of your unit combo options, like the fallback+shoot VV? Well, maybe 1 pod to get the characters down with the DS, the rest could go point free via strat.
Yeah that's the only reason I'd use it. You can drop an 8 man squad with high firepower and 2 HQs like Libriarians or Watch Masters. It's also an effective way to drop Artemis down. To drop the same amount of units down you'd need to use 3 CP and you wouldn't be able to drop anything like Dreadnoughts or Primaris marines.
Personally I'd take a normal boltgun over the shotgun. If I am paying 3 points for a shotgun ill find a way to afford one more point and get the storm bolter. IMO shotguns are absolute trash which makes me very sad.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: Personally I'd take a normal boltgun over the shotgun. If I am paying 3 points for a shotgun ill find a way to afford one more point and get the storm bolter. IMO shotguns are absolute trash which makes me very sad.
I think it depends on your targets. Time will tell, but for now Shotguns fill a few niches, though they maybe didn't need to be filled in the first place.
Being an assault weapon, you can use it on a squad on the move. 16" is also longer than kraken bolt's rapid-fire range of 15" so that's a definite advantage, however small.
Xenopurge Slugs are the real star imo. They offer the same profile that a kraken bolt would out of a bolter, but at 8" away they become the perfect weapons for mulching 2 wound models. You're talking about a 3 point weapon that can possibly kill 2 Intercessors. Be careful who you tell that to, because for the price of every autocannon, you could get 5 shotguns Cryptclearer rounds seem somewhat redundant, but can probably do well against units you currently don't have tactics against, or anything with T5 or higher.
Wyrmsbreath should be used in overwatch exclusively, but with an even shorter range than the flamer you might not even get to use it.
Competitively I wouldn't take them over a boltgun, or a storm bolter. They're a sidegrade from the former and a definite downgrade from the latter. Narratively, I still think they're super cool, and they aren't absolute ass, so taking a few might be fun.
Getting that 8" away is rather the trick though, isn't it? Frag cannons will also destroy anything up close, but naturally DS is 9" and no sane enemy is going to intentionally leave stuff within that threat range of where your transport is sitting for you to disembark onto them next turn.
Neophyte2012 wrote: Watched a few batrep fought between Deathwatch and some Xeno factions. The DW got basically tabled in some games while barely won in other games. Anyway, I found a common pattern which is almost all list includes at least 2 Corvus Blackstar flyer, it looks like this flyer is actually a must have in DW list?
Some battle reports I saw had a poor grasp of the actual DW rules honestly. Many forgot to use the right ammunitions at the right time, others forgot rerolls or special rules or hoe weapons worked, when to use the various stratagems.... not a great showing for those channels....
The downside to everyone rushing to publish the very first DW games instead of playing some practice ones first.
Based on the numbers, seems like for SIA, when in doubt, use Hellfire. Unless in that range where 15" gets you the double tap, Hellfire is either better or close enough you're better erring on the side of too much Hellfire than not.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: Personally I'd take a normal boltgun over the shotgun. If I am paying 3 points for a shotgun ill find a way to afford one more point and get the storm bolter. IMO shotguns are absolute trash which makes me very sad.
That is usually the case, sure, the SIA has much more flexibility than shotgun rounds. However, I think if I engaged against Eldar, Dark Eldar and the worst of all the Harlequins who WILL reduce your marines shooting accuracy down to conscripts level, I will want the cheap shotguns and the expensive Frag cannons.
Neophyte2012 wrote: Watched a few batrep fought between Deathwatch and some Xeno factions. The DW got basically tabled in some games while barely won in other games. Anyway, I found a common pattern which is almost all list includes at least 2 Corvus Blackstar flyer, it looks like this flyer is actually a must have in DW list?
Some battle reports I saw had a poor grasp of the actual DW rules honestly. Many forgot to use the right ammunitions at the right time, others forgot rerolls or special rules or hoe weapons worked, when to use the various stratagems.... not a great showing for those channels....
Yes, ture. I also noticed some obvious mistake of the DW players. What I am torn is that if the flyer is worth taking, which gives the kill teams a chance to shoot / charge more effectively. Because I seriously concern if they cannot live long enough to shoot / chop, or not able to get into optimum range to shoot, or they can shoot but their accuracy being demoted to Orks level and missed everything (which the only solution is to get within 7" to use Frag Cannon and Shotguns), then whether making use of the ammos / stratagems right or not will not make any difference imo........
Blah, hah. First I thought I'd try to make a DS list and use a drop pod to get the Watch Master in range. But then I ran into that 50% of the army needs to start on the table limit. Freaking 5 PL for an empty pod? Next, I thought, okay, how about I just make an army that uses models I own...And then after a numerous tweak iterations I now own barely half of this list. But, think it'd be effective?
Idea being the 2 Veteran units and the Heltercessors DS and I went RG for the allies over BA since they're providing the on the board turn 1 shooting and the hellfire/flakk strat.
edit: Tweaked Master down to Captain in order for him to have a jump pack and get in range of DS units and accounted for Battlescribe not counting the HK costs correct.
The Corvus has its drawbacks for sure, but it's a pretty tough transport - softness isn't one of them. 14W is signiicant, as is -1 to hit and no charges from ground units.
It carries two more models than a pod, not insignificant considering the 2 spaces a vanguard or termi take up.
It has really great guns, but suffers from movement penalty on most of them, which is its greatest weakness, so it's a very binary unit - movement & deployment/ or dakka.
In my list it often benefits from reroll 1s from my (Aegis Dominatus relic) jumpcap on T1, and reroll misses turn 2 onwards from the Watchmaster it drops. Really, I think hovermode is the way to go on T2 anyway, to maximise dakka.
Opening turn, if I lose initiative, it has 5++ and rerolls 1s on save throws. That's a great statline to insure against getting trumped on initiative rolls.
Plus, we're all kind of suckers for aesthetic and fluff here, right? DW is all about that side of the game. And on that side, nothing trumps a Corvus Blackstar delivering its payload to the heart of the battle.
Hi guys, interested how people would make an army from the items below. The core battalion contains models I want to use (Veteran’s already updated with a load of Tartaros terminator storm bolters and £45 of FW Razorback assault cannons…) but would like opinions on what to add from my collection?
Veterans – Sargent (Strom bolter, Power Axe), 2x (Storm bolter, Chain sword), 2x (Storm bolter, Storm shield), 3x Bikers (chainsword), 2x Vanguard (Storm shield, Bolt pistol).
Veterans – Sargent (Strom bolter, Power Axe), 2x (Storm bolter, Chain sword), 2x (Storm bolter, Storm shield), 3x Bikers (chainsword), 2x Vanguard (Storm shield, Bolt pistol).
Veterans – Sargent (Strom bolter, Power Axe), 2x (Storm bolter, Chain sword), 2x (Storm bolter, Storm shield), 5x Terminators (Storm bolters, Power axe).
Transports – 3x Razorback's with twin Assault Cannons
Contemptor Mortis Dreadnought – Quad lascannons
Land Raider Prometheus(scratch built sponsors, took ages but pleased with the results)
So plan is the ubiquitous Deathwatch combat squads. Three 5 man vets in the razorbacks heading to objectives, with Razorback giving support after disembarking. Bike & Vanguard combos to grab early objectives or to go after vulnerable enemy units. Jump captain to go where he pleases and Beacon Angelis terminators with him. Lone wolf Terminator Captain threatening vehicles (it’s a converted Arjac Rockfist model so will deploy him for fun!) charging out of the Prometheus. Land Raider reduces CP usage and negates cover save with 24 H bolter shots. Mortis dread for tank hunting.
Rest of the models from collection I can use, what would you take?
1x Watch Master
1x Artemis
1x Captain with Jump pack, thunder hammer, combi-melta
1x Chaplain with inferno pistol
3x Librarians with Bolt pistols & force axes (Supreme command detachment and hop in the transports?) 6x Vets with stalker bolters
6x Vets with frag cannons
3x Blackshields with storm bolter & thunder hammer
3x Vanguard heavy thunder hammers
3x Terminators with assault cannons/power axe
Corvus Blackstar
Fire Raptor
Xiphon Interceptor
Chaplain Venerable Dreadnought
Relic Whirlwind Scorpius
Relic Sicaran Venator Tank Destroyer
Relic Deredeo Dreadnought (converted “stormhound” as seen on spikybits)
Necrons are always the hard one for me.
Trying to choose between 4+ to wound rolls with -2 to saves or 2+ to wound rolls with no save modifier.
Plasma seems to be the best gun for hitting Necrons.
Dakka Wolf wrote: Necrons are always the hard one for me.
Trying to choose between 4+ to wound rolls with -2 to saves or 2+ to wound rolls with no save modifier.
Plasma seems to be the best gun for hitting Necrons.
Generally speaking, what kills marine efficiently kills Necron good as well.
Dakka Wolf wrote: Necrons are always the hard one for me.
Trying to choose between 4+ to wound rolls with -2 to saves or 2+ to wound rolls with no save modifier.
Plasma seems to be the best gun for hitting Necrons.
What we ought to do is make a chart for the Special Ammunition and where to use it for both the Storm Bolter Vets and the Primaris Bolt Rifles. We can argue about Bolt Carbines vs Bolt Rifles any other day, but how about we get a chart going otherwise? I can volunteer time tomorrow to do that hopefully
Dakka Wolf wrote: Necrons are always the hard one for me.
Trying to choose between 4+ to wound rolls with -2 to saves or 2+ to wound rolls with no save modifier.
Plasma seems to be the best gun for hitting Necrons.
Generally speaking, what kills marine efficiently kills Necron good as well.
That's kind of the problem. Necrons sit in that annoying spot where none of the SIA really stands out as a Necron killer, you're right that Space Marines sit there too but T4 with a 3+ save is just frustrating. Best SIA can do is help you start pumping rounds into the enemy a tad earlier.
I like your list but would you consider moving the leviathan to the DW detachment for deep striking and other goodness.
Yeah...That was how my lists kept starting, but due to points and/or 50% PL restrictions I kept ending up with something like a bunch of Hellblasters or Aggressors not DSing if the Leviathan does. They would be more survivable turn 1, but not shoot nearly as effectively. I figured moving it to RG at least gives the -1 to be hit and the guard can screen it. That RG detachment could be folded back in to the DW. I think I originally had a few Scouts or something else nonDW legal in there too to make it more relevant.
Dakka Wolf wrote: Necrons are always the hard one for me.
Trying to choose between 4+ to wound rolls with -2 to saves or 2+ to wound rolls with no save modifier.
Plasma seems to be the best gun for hitting Necrons.
What we ought to do is make a chart for the Special Ammunition and where to use it for both the Storm Bolter Vets and the Primaris Bolt Rifles. We can argue about Bolt Carbines vs Bolt Rifles any other day, but how about we get a chart going otherwise? I can volunteer time tomorrow to do that hopefully
Dakka Wolf wrote: Necrons are always the hard one for me.
Trying to choose between 4+ to wound rolls with -2 to saves or 2+ to wound rolls with no save modifier.
Plasma seems to be the best gun for hitting Necrons.
What we ought to do is make a chart for the Special Ammunition and where to use it for both the Storm Bolter Vets and the Primaris Bolt Rifles. We can argue about Bolt Carbines vs Bolt Rifles any other day, but how about we get a chart going otherwise? I can volunteer time tomorrow to do that hopefully
Hey guys, I'd like to know how to kit out a primaris squad designed for fire support. I'm trying to make a 2k DW list allied with BA, where the DW provide the shooting and the BA the melee. I'm not going for maximum efficiency with this list. I've red about different variants of fire support squads, (With inceptors, assault plasma's, etc.) and am not sure which one to pick. Maybe you can help me with that.
Currently I have something like this:
1997/2000 pts
DW Batallion detachment: - Watch Master (Tome of Ectolades, Vigilance Incarnate)
- Librarian (Veil of time, Might of Heroes)
Troops: - 2 x (5 intercessors, 4 hellblasters, 1 aggressor: Aux grenade launcher, bolt rifles, sgt. Chainswords, Plasma incinerators, boltstorm gauntlets)
- 1 x (5 intercessors, 3 hellblasters, 1 aggressor: Aux grenade launcher, bolt rifles, sgt. Chainswords, Plasma incinerators, boltstorm gauntlets)
Flyer: - Corvus blackstar (Twin assault cannon, blackstar Rocket Launchers, Auspex Array, Hurricane Bolter)
BA Batallion detachment: - SM Captain(Jump pack, TH + SS)
- The Sanguinor
Troops: - 3 x (5 scouts : 1 x HB)
Elite: - 7 x sanguinary guard
Jetsquirrel wrote: Hey guys, I'd like to know how to kit out a primaris squad designed for fire support. I'm trying to make a 2k DW list allied with BA, where the DW provide the shooting and the BA the melee. I'm not going for maximum efficiency with this list. I've red about different variants of fire support squads, (With inceptors, assault plasma's, etc.) and am not sure which one to pick. Maybe you can help me with that.
Currently I have something like this:
1997/2000 pts
DW Batallion detachment: - Watch Master (Tome of Ectolades, Vigilance Incarnate)
- Librarian (Veil of time, Might of Heroes)
Troops: - 2 x (5 intercessors, 4 hellblasters, 1 aggressor: Aux grenade launcher, bolt rifles, sgt. Chainswords, Plasma incinerators, boltstorm gauntlets)
- 1 x (5 intercessors, 3 hellblasters, 1 aggressor: Aux grenade launcher, bolt rifles, sgt. Chainswords, Plasma incinerators, boltstorm gauntlets)
Flyer: - Corvus blackstar (Twin assault cannon, blackstar Rocket Launchers, Auspex Array, Hurricane Bolter)
BA Batallion detachment: - SM Captain(Jump pack, TH + SS)
- The Sanguinor
Troops: - 3 x (5 scouts : 1 x HB)
Elite: - 7 x sanguinary guard
Any reason why you have a Blackstar in there? It can't carry Primaris, and nothing else looks like it wants a ride in your list.
Any reason why you have a Blackstar in there? It can't carry Primaris, and nothing else looks like it wants a ride in your list.
Ehh, I figured it could be used like a gunboat a la stormraven gunship style and be an annoyance. I could replace it, but I don't have a good idea of what to replace it with.
I like it.
Assault Cannons, Hurricane Bolters and Cluster Bombs are great for lessening enemy chaff making it harder for opponents to just mass roll your more elite Vets into the ground.
Any reason why you have a Blackstar in there? It can't carry Primaris, and nothing else looks like it wants a ride in your list.
Ehh, I figured it could be used like a gunboat a la stormraven gunship style and be an annoyance. I could replace it, but I don't have a good idea of what to replace it with.
I had a similar thought. It could be effective at shooting in hover mode with no "- " for shooting heavy weapons. You will loose your Hard to hit however. Really wish it had power of the machine spirit. It is supposed to be a spec ops type badass flyer.
Dakka Wolf wrote: It does kind of have offsets in re-rolling ones when shooting flyers or units in cover, plus whatever mission tactic you chose.
It doesn't benefit from mission tactics sadly.
Pity I haven't got my Codex on me, I'm sure there was a way of getting re-rolls on the blackstar.
I mean you'll have ways to reroll to hit but that's about it.
Just messing with Battlescribe, you can do a Terminator Watch Captain with a Storm Bolter, wrist Grenade Launcher, and a Melta Power Fist for a kinda shooty character. Do what you will with that info.
Any good sources you guys know about for Terminator power weapons that aren't fists? If I want to run minimum cost Terminators in my lists, I definitely don't want power fists. As far as I know the regular Terminator kit only comes with 1 power sword.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I disagree with putting a Vanguard Vet in any squad with that many Frag Cannons.
Why specifically? The Vanguard is just there for fall back and shoot.
With 6D6 shots during Overwatch and that many attacks in melee, it can be saved points or another Vet with a Storm Bolter. For a camping squad with Stalkers or Heavy Weapons it makes sense, but here the squad will either be shot to death (in which case the Vanguard isn't really a cheap body, so to speak), or they mostly melt everything on Overwatch. That's 7 dead Berserker Marines and 9 Genestealers dead alone from the Frag Cannons.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I disagree with putting a Vanguard Vet in any squad with that many Frag Cannons.
Why specifically? The Vanguard is just there for fall back and shoot.
With 6D6 shots during Overwatch and that many attacks in melee, it can be saved points or another Vet with a Storm Bolter. For a camping squad with Stalkers or Heavy Weapons it makes sense, but here the squad will either be shot to death (in which case the Vanguard isn't really a cheap body, so to speak), or they mostly melt everything on Overwatch. That's 7 dead Berserker Marines and 9 Genestealers dead alone from the Frag Cannons.
Or they just get charged by a rhino and all that dakka is gone for a turn. While you're right in that nothing is going to want to charge them, it's such a big squad and so much firepower that something will have to be done, and getting charged by something just to shut them down seems likely.
I've definitely had my Frag Cannon squads for whatever reason leave a single guy alive and lose their next round of shooting enough times to find a cheap Vanguard worth it. If you dual pistol them they actually contribute pretty well since Frag Cannons mean you're more or less running in pistol range anyway.
ballzonya wrote: whats everyone's opinion on either a watch captain or go primaris captain?
I think watch captains will win out. They can fit in the good transports and have more options like jump packs, terminator armor and even just on foot. If you want you can take a Primaris Watch Captain for 97 points and have a MC auto bolt rifle (or stalker they're the same points) w/ power sword and bolt pistol or for 83 points have a Watch Captain with 1 less wound and attack who has a storm bolter (IMO a better gun than the primaris options) and power sword (That's if you didn't want to buy better gear like a power fist to even up the points).
I'm still banking on the terminator captain with a combi melta and melta fist coming down to duel a dreadnought.
ballzonya wrote: whats everyone's opinion on either a watch captain or go primaris captain?
Watch Captains can take transports, deep strike with a jump pack, take good melee weapons like thunder hammers, rock storm shields, take the ever sought after Storm Bolter, and don't cost $35.
The Primaris Watch Captain gets +1 wound and +1 attack. With a power sword. Yeah.
But, think it'd be effective?
