Nifty. I have Greyfax, Eisenhorn and Coteaz as fun bits I was using for my Sisters/DW/GK army in 8th that doesn't really work anymore. Maybe I'll start with Eisenhorn and see how he works out before switching to Coteaz.
I'm not counting on getting Phobos stuff. It would be nice, but GW seems determined to keep scouts out of our hands.
Deathwatch never had scouts because they were green recruits, not because Deathwatch has some kind of "no scouting" policy.
The Phobos guys are just as trained up as any other primaris trooper, and we already have access to Reivers, so I really don't see any reason why we wouldnt get the rest on the line. They fit with the tacticool DW aesthetic arguably more than any other kits.
If Deathwatch are now a different flavor of Space Marines from the codex, there is a very good chance we have access to the full arsenal. That would include scouts.
McGibs wrote: Deathwatch never had scouts because they were green recruits, not because Deathwatch has some kind of "no scouting" policy.
The Phobos guys are just as trained up as any other primaris trooper, and we already have access to Reivers, so I really don't see any reason why we wouldnt get the rest on the line. They fit with the tacticool DW aesthetic arguably more than any other kits.
Indeed. Without going on another of my rants about the subject, Phobos are a natural fit for Deathwatch forces and if GW manages to pretzel themselves into continuing to exclude them despite folding DW into the Marine + Supplement umbrella I legitimately have no fething clue what the design team is smoking, injecting and inhaling all at the same time.
It'll be fun to figure out what SIA is best with these crazy bolt carbines. Provided SIA gets added to these units and doesn't change in some way (big assumption).
Lemondish wrote: It'll be fun to figure out what SIA is best with these crazy bolt carbines. Provided SIA gets added to these units and doesn't change in some way (big assumption).
I would be highly surprised if Infiltrators and Incursors get SIA.
Lemondish wrote: It'll be fun to figure out what SIA is best with these crazy bolt carbines. Provided SIA gets added to these units and doesn't change in some way (big assumption).
I would be highly surprised if Infiltrators and Incursors get SIA.
Yeah, I suppose so. Sadly, I think without SIA most units in DW are weaker than their codex counterparts.
Its so hard to commit to anything until we see how we are integrated into the main book.
I forsee us having 3-4 different killteam combinations
Veterans, Phobos, Intercessors. The fourth team I can see being a "melee intercessors" unit with bladeguard and the like(pretty much all the units from indomitus)
I'd actually be surprised if DW get access to EVERYTHING in the main codex. It'll probably be more like when the 8th Indexes dropped and a future DE supplement will have a page listing thr specific datasheets they can use from the main codex.
I'd expect this to be true for the SWBA and DA supplements too.
Lemondish wrote: It'll be fun to figure out what SIA is best with these crazy bolt carbines. Provided SIA gets added to these units and doesn't change in some way (big assumption).
I would be highly surprised if Infiltrators and Incursors get SIA.
Yeah, I suppose so. Sadly, I think without SIA most units in DW are weaker than their codex counterparts.
It honestly makes no sense for some parts of the army to have SIA and some not. Same with some weapons benefitting fully from SIA (assault and heavy bolt varieties) while others just partially benefit (rapid fire ones due to bolter discipline). Units and weapons are not costed to reflect that mismatch and it's quite frankly counterintuitive and unfluffy.
I understand it's a hassle to balance. I get it. But then rework the whole thing instead of applying several overlapping quick fixes.
The main offender is hellfire. It's too strong. Make it +1 to wound instead and remove the limitations.
Rapid fire bolt rifles intercessors with current hellfire would be horrifying. Same with hellfire aggressors. If you change that ammo type to +1 to wound instead, it becomes MUCH more akin to what some chapters already get, and I hope that then allows GW to apply this rule army wide and without restrictions.
I'd be much happier that way and the codex would have more DEPTH. Even if it maybe would be weaker. I don't care. I want my army to be fun.
It honestly makes no sense for some parts of the army to have SIA and some not. Same with some weapons benefitting fully from SIA (assault and heavy bolt varieties) while others just partially benefit (rapid fire ones due to bolter discipline). Units and weapons are not costed to reflect that mismatch and it's quite frankly counterintuitive and unfluffy.
I understand it's a hassle to balance. I get it. But then rework the whole thing instead of applying several overlapping quick fixes.
The main offender is hellfire. It's too strong. Make it +1 to wound instead and remove the limitations.
Rapid fire bolt rifles intercessors with current hellfire would be horrifying. Same with hellfire aggressors. If you change that ammo type to +1 to wound instead, it becomes MUCH more akin to what some chapters already get, and I hope that then allows GW to apply this rule army wide and without restrictions.
I'd be much happier that way and the codex would have more DEPTH. Even if it maybe would be weaker. I don't care. I want my army to be fun.
Making Deathwatch "Vanilla Marines but with souped up Doctrines" isnt adding depth. And if you think for a second that making a Codex that already struggles weaker is a good thing for the long term, I genuinely dont know what to say.
Its not about balance, its just they do things without really thinking about it as a whole. Then slap on something that might solve one problem, but doesnt have a comprehensive look at everything it affects
If Dragonfire was a complete benefit of cover negation, it'd go a long way towards making it a viable pick for 9th.
Speaking of cover negation, I'm giving serious thought to moving Nowhere to Hide into the arsenal. Per the rules appendix in the BRB, rules that specifically remove the benefit of cover, not just the benefit to their saving throws, explicitly negate all cover penalties. Being able to strategically turn off Dense, Heavy and Light cover all at once seems like it could damn well swing a critical moment.
Just in case anyone was holding their breath for Veterans to be functional in Crusade, the PL changes dropped this morning and absolutely fethed that hope to death.
Sterling191 wrote: Just in case anyone was holding their breath for Veterans to be functional in Crusade, the PL changes dropped this morning and absolutely fethed that hope to death.
They got cheaper, didn't they? Not that it really matters since their PL is based on being a unit of Frag Cannons.
What FAQ stuff specifically? I didnt see anything that disproportionately affected Deathwatch.
As an aside, the PL and Wound characteristic changes for Terminators are *very* interesting, and (in crusade at least) provide a welcome and fluffy alternative to Eradicators.
Maybe this has been covered, I was reading over the Deathwatch FAQ for 13/07/2020 and noticed that they put up the interessors, argressors and Inceptor to 3 wounds and 3 attacks. is that correct? or are they still just the 2? I can't see and mention of this anywhere else so I feel like i'm reading this incorrectly.
*Page 73 – Intercessors, Aggressor, profileChange Wounds characteristic to 3. Change Attacks characteristic to 3
Agamembar wrote: Maybe this has been covered, I was reading over the Deathwatch FAQ for 13/07/2020 and noticed that they put up the interessors, argressors and Inceptor to 3 wounds and 3 attacks. is that correct? or are they still just the 2? I can't see and mention of this anywhere else so I feel like i'm reading this incorrectly.
*Page 73 – Intercessors, Aggressor, profileChange Wounds characteristic to 3. Change Attacks characteristic to 3
It's worded a little bit unusually because it's changing the profile of the Aggressor and Inceptor models on the Intercessor datasheet (which is the Fortis Kill Team datasheet). The Gravis models are three wounds apiece. The Intercessor is still only two wounds.
If the datasheet printed on the plastic kit assembly instructions is any indication of how unit profiles are being updated for the 9th ed Marine codex, than Terminators are going to 3Ws. And Power swords are +1S.
Could be interesting for DW units.
Sterling191 wrote: VanVets going to 2W, pretty strongly implying regular Vets going to 2W. And the changes to melee weapons on top of that.
That's...gonna be a thing.
It's certainly looking like all non-Primaris Marines are getting +1W, or at least the Veterans.
It would be neat if they left Tac Marines at 1W, but gave the Sgt 2W just like Eldar Exarchs.
Although for DW, 2W Vets will be an interesting choice. Probably the default over Primaris teams.
Just imagine 2W, Storm shield Storm bolter Vets. Nasty.
Although for DW, 2W Vets will be an interesting choice. Probably the default over Primaris teams.
Just imagine 2W, Storm shield Storm bolter Vets. Nasty.
Honestly, in a 2W marine equation, everything needs to be re-evaluated. Stalker Intercessor teams are going to be worth their weight in gold. Wounding 2s, AP3, Flat 2 damage, that's terrifying to Primaris right there.
The Storm Bolter Vet costs makes a LOT more sense in the context of a 2W statline. It's a sidegrade to the ABR intercessor (more shots close in but worse off at range and cant advance and fire), but not a liability while taking fire any more.
Although for DW, 2W Vets will be an interesting choice. Probably the default over Primaris teams.
Just imagine 2W, Storm shield Storm bolter Vets. Nasty.
Honestly, in a 2W marine equation, everything needs to be re-evaluated. Stalker Intercessor teams are going to be worth their weight in gold. Wounding 2s, AP3, Flat 2 damage, that's terrifying to Primaris right there.
The Storm Bolter Vet costs makes a LOT more sense in the context of a 2W statline. It's a sidegrade to the ABR intercessor (more shots close in but worse off at range and cant advance and fire), but not a liability while taking fire any more.
I agree if you're comparing Marines to other Marines. But there's other armies out there occasionally.
And you can always add a few special weapons to Vets for the extra damage.
All I'm saying is that 2W vets become the defacto all-rounder and push Primaris teams into very niche roles. Roles that Vets can still compete in with the right loadout.
Although the Assault bolt rifle dropping to the same cost as the Stalker makes more sense now.
All I'm saying is that 2W vets become the defacto all-rounder and push Primaris teams into very niche roles. Roles that Vets can still compete in with the right loadout.
Hard disagree. The T5 Intergressor hammer still represents a horrific all-round threat with buckets of anti-troop dice, punches for days, surprising mobility with penalty-free advancing and a solidly chunky defensive statline (especially with Transhuman on the table). Other common configurations still have parts to play (again, Stalker teams for cost efficient mobile backfield holding and character hunting, split Intercessor/Hellblaster teams popping out of Impulsors for a turn 1 hose down and the list goes on).
Veterans can do things that Fortis teams cant, and Fortis teams can do things Veterans cant. That's a good thing. Especially in an objective focused edition where being able to engage across the entire table is mandatory for success.
Well if we're looking at 2w vets and 3w termies, that pushes me right back to vet squads I have to say, with stalker primaris holding the backfield. +1w changes the math considerably.
grouchoben wrote: Well if we're looking at 2w vets and 3w termies, that pushes me right back to vet squads I have to say, with stalker primaris holding the backfield. +1w changes the math considerably.
New reboxed Datasheet reveals today are looking favorable for 2W Vets across the board. I'm getting a strange feeling about my Deathwatch: hope.
LunarSol wrote: Why not? We're marines now. Probably not the best marines, but still along for the ride.
Because GW has a shining history of categorically excluding Deathwatch from rules updates for no conceivable reason. Im hopeful, but until we have the update that actually gives us things, Im not taking anything for granted.
The theorycraft is a fun diversion though, no question.
LunarSol wrote: Why not? We're marines now. Probably not the best marines, but still along for the ride.
Because GW has a shining history of categorically excluding Deathwatch from rules updates for no conceivable reason. Im hopeful, but until we have the update that actually gives us things, Im not taking anything for granted.
The theorycraft is a fun diversion though, no question.
We've been excluded because the business of how they update rules excluded us. Pulling us into the Codex means we no longer require a separate release to receive updates. Probably get Black Templar level of negligence still, but we'll at least get neglected in a timely manner.
We've been excluded because the business of how they update rules excluded us.
This is categorically false. GW have had multiple explicit opportunities in major non-codex updates to give Deathwatch abilities and units (just as they did for every other non-Codex Marine army). They deliberately chose not to.
We've been excluded because the business of how they update rules excluded us.
This is categorically false. They have had multiple explicit opportunities in major non-codex updates to give Deathwatch abilities and units (just as they did for every other non-Codex Marine army). They deliberately chose not to.
It has nothing to do with Codex tempo.
That's largely because of how SIA has been implemented as a datasheet element. I suspect it will need to be implemented differently as a Codex Supplement, but we could also just find ourselves getting a bunch of Indomitus style additions that carry the same weapons without SIA. Hard to say.
That's largely because of how SIA has been implemented as a datasheet element. I suspect it will need to be implemented differently as a Codex Supplement, but we could also just find ourselves getting a bunch of Indomitus style additions that carry the same weapons without SIA. Hard to say.
Datasheets without SIA are how all of the Primaris have been added (excepting Intercessors and Reivers). It's how I expect we'll get most additions until the new Codex.
In any event, I dont want to get ranty again and derail things when we've finally got some good news. Let's get down to brass tacks...
With a similar points increase relative to Tactical Marines, Veterans are (likely) going to be clocking in at 27 points for the SB/SS loadout. I dont know what the increase on Terminators is going to be, but I expect it'll be at minimum a similar 3ppm, but likely more in the 5ppm range. That puts the latter at a 35-ish cost for a basic power weapon plus SB configuration, and a whopping 60-ish if one opts for a CML.
With the additional wound though...I think that's on the higher end of reasonable. Especially the barebones version. I can see pure terminator drops being a thing again too, especially with the option of pairing +1 to hit and +1 to wound via strat.
Additionally, with the melee weapon changes (D4 Thunder hammers. Oof) I think Black Shields are finally back on the menu. A 5-man team with both the Sarge and Blackshield toting Combi-weapons and power weapons and 3x SB/SS helpers is 150-ish points depending on how one kits them out. Popping out of transports to get into people's faces with some now pretty quality melee attacks to go with their hail of still high quality fire is tasty, and plays into the 9th paradigm of board control that we desperately need to keep in mind to stay in games. Honorable mention to standalone VenVet units. Even with a similar points uptick to baseline Vets they're clocking in at 15 points more than Assault Intercessors with innate deep strike, wacky good mobility and the capacity to take a few relatively inexpensive melee weapons for some horrific blending. I probably wouldnt put shields on them as it would spike their cost considerably, but if one is contemplating a pseudo Sanguinary guard type unit as a hammer, I can see it being worthwhile.
Bikes...are in a weird spot. They're already 15% more expensive than their Marine counterparts for no discernable reason. If they get another points increase, I dont know that theyre going to be worthwhile since it'll put them in the Terminator cost range, and that to really get mileage out of them given how much more durable common targets are becoming I'd want to put melee weapons on them. I do still love the 3x Bike, 2x VanVet combat squad for 9th with ObSec. It's an amazing disruptor unit that can cause significant mayhem on the table for what it costs. Definitely an item to ponder there.
In terms of heavy weapons, I do think the CML is a legitimate, albeit pricey, option. Finally getting the 2d6 Frag shots is immensely helpful, and they're cheaper than individual missiles but also on a MUCH more durable platform. Im fiddling with some combat squadding options to update my backfield Stalker Boltgun configurations from 8th, but nothing's really clicked yet. The Infernus on paper is a big winner with the 12" flamer change and going to D2 (although we dont know how many HB shots it'll keep). I dont know if they're worth the 20 points though. That's one I expect to try out and see how they do. I'm still not sold on Frag cannons, but that's largely an artifact of my disliking their short range, and their paper thin delivery platform from 8th. I want to get some on the table to give them a fair shake though.
For the special weapons, Combi-Plas at 10 points is probably still the gold standard and doubly so now that it's officially going to unmodified 1s to explode. However, with the adjustments to Flamer and Melta statlines, plus their cost changes, I think both of those give some interesting options. Especially if we're expecting a lot of W3 models, having a d6+2 guaranteed kill if we get the wound through...is intriguing.
That's largely because of how SIA has been implemented as a datasheet element. I suspect it will need to be implemented differently as a Codex Supplement, but we could also just find ourselves getting a bunch of Indomitus style additions that carry the same weapons without SIA. Hard to say.
Datasheets without SIA are how all of the Primaris have been added (excepting Intercessors and Reivers). It's how I expect we'll get most additions until the new Codex.
In any event, I dont want to get ranty again and derail things when we've finally got some good news. Let's get down to brass tacks...
It's really only Aggressors and Inceptors that clearly intentionally do not have SIA. You're forgetting a bunch of easy to overlook but still technically unique datasheets like Chaplains, Captains, Librarians and Apothacaries. Humorously, even the Hellblasters have it to make sure they have SIA on their pistols. It's really the bolt pistols that make SIA as a datasheet element really clunky as an extension of the SM Codex.
Great analysis though. Points are going to be pretty key, but I'm definitely excited to see what options become available for killteams moving forward.
I was just looking at my Hellblasters and hoping they'd make these exact changes.
I'm really torn now between assault plas in aggressor/ABR teams, or heavy plas hiding in stalker teams.
At 3 shots apeice, the assault plas is really solid, but has a real good chance of burning itself out without rerolls, and I like to run my assault teams pretty independantly (hard for a non-jump captain to keepup)
Heavy plas has the nice 2 damage marine killer without overheating, and I assume it will go to damage 3 when overcharged which would make it a much needed anti-tank option.
McGibs wrote: I was just looking at my Hellblasters and hoping they'd make these exact changes.
I'm really torn now between assault plas in aggressor/ABR teams, or heavy plas hiding in stalker teams.
I think the heavy change is enough to finally make me reconfigure my stalker teams. Up until now Id been running a pair of 6-mans (5 SBRs + Aggressor), but with the flat damage upgrade it's absolutely time for a combat squadded set of 3x SBRs, 1x Heavy Blaster, 1x Aggressor. Yes, it's losing two flat 2D SIA shots, but the capacity to lob a 3D armor busting (or Gravis busting) shot downrange for a net decrease on points is not to be taken lightly. Plus the capacity to avoid Blast entirely, and only take up a single precious Troop FO slot.
With 2 wound vets costing as much as primaris (which I expect) there is no way stormbolters are 4 points and auto bolt rifles are 0. They are comparable weapons on comparable platforms.
bort123 wrote: With 2 wound vets costing as much as primaris (which I expect) there is no way stormbolters are 4 points and auto bolt rifles are 0. They are comparable weapons on comparable platforms.
I sincerely hope GW doesn't screw this up...
Preface disclaimer: I think SBs at 3 are overcosted for 1w Vets for sure.
The thing one has to keep in mind is that part of what the SB cost for Deathwatch Veterans includes is being able to take a second piece of wargear. If Storm Bolters dropped to zero points, not only would you be doubling the firepower of every unit for free, you would be getting a cost discount on another piece of gear that you're already taking on the Vet. Lets look at a basic unit of SBs and Chainswords versus ABR Intercessors. Not only would the Vets have better shooting (yes, the extra shot within 15" more than balances out the longer range firepower differential), they'd have even more higher quality melee attacks (21 S4 Ap-1 D1 vs 16 S4 AP0 D1) for the same cost as the Primaris squad.
Both units need to be viable in the context of the other, but also in the context of other wargear options for each unit. ~27ppm (estimated cost of NuVets) SB/SS Vets are pricey. I get that pain. But TBH, for what they can do its not an unreasonable price point.
Alright, some legitimate good news again: Codex (supplement) Deathwatch by the end of 2020. We still dont have any hard details as to how it will interact with the prime Marine Codex (IE: we dont know which units are specifically excluded from the DW OoB), but its looking to allow for most of the existing range to take up the Long Watch.
Just a couple of quick scribbles about units i'm eyeing up for my lads (in no particular order)...
First up, Attack Bikes. I've written before about my ambivalence on DW bikers, but Attack Bikes are legitimate contenders. Rocking in at (currently) 55 points for two armor busting shots and a twin boltgun (which most folks overlook in my experience, but is devastating once SIA gets added to the equation), a MM Attack Bike is a perfect blend of killy, mobile and resilient. Yes it's likely going to see a points increase with the wound update, but at the 60 that I'm banking on its till on par with a CML terminator, but with 5(!) wounds on a T5 M14 platform that also doesnt care about moving and shooting with the heavy weapon. Two bike squads hit my personal headmath niche of versatile, but expendable, and barring any major curveballs I fully expect to add probably four to my collection.
Second up, Impulsors. These floating jeeps have the capacity to fundamentally shake up how we play. Single turn delivery for buckets of SIA and/or Plasma, exceptionally robust objective holding, and mobility for daaaaaaaays. I genuinely think we've only scratched the surface of what they can do given the inherent flexibility of combat squadded non-Gravis lads in mixed squads. And holy hell if they drop the Primaris only restriction...
Thirdly, Phobos armor in general. Yes, you've all heard me rant about this in the past, but forward deploying Incursors (especially now that they've got somewhat scarier combat weapons), area denying Infiltrators, Character BLAMing Eliminators, and Phobos officers provide additional flexibility. Im holding out hope for a mixed Phobos Kill Team, but even if that doesnt happen we're poised to get a ton of new tactical tools at our disposal. Its about damn time the Commando Marines join the Marines Commando.
Finally (mostly just so this post isnt fifteen pages long), the humble Ancient. This one is a bit of a stretch, but given that we got the Bladeguard Ancient out of Indomitus, I dont think an unreasonable stretch. One of the major weaknesses of a Deathwatch army, especially one that's thematic and leans into the infantry heavy nature of the fluff, is fragile models being removed. Now while the wound upgrade will help, having the capacity to go full Khan and stab at Hell's Heart as each Veteran goes down should not be underestimated in my opinion. Park one of these lads between two big ten man Kill Teams and they suddenly become even scarier. They also serve as another vector to get a buffing WLT in (especially so if we get the prime Codex WLTs in addition to the DW ones), which provides another potential force multiplier. The latter bit IMO is more valuable in the context of limited Captain slots with the new restrictions we'll face with the 9th codex.
All told, im again feeling somewhat optimistic, but am reserving judgement until we know more. What do y'all think?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Aaaaand of course as soon as I post this they make the storm shield change an across the board blanket alteration.
I’m interested in using vets with infernus heavy bolters. The heavy Bolter is now d2 and the heavy flamer is now 12”. Great for deepstrike or drop pod vets. I might take them over frag cannons. Great vs heavy infantry and hordes alike. Put the in terrain with a few storm shields and ignore most small arms fire .
That was pretty much a given. I'd also wager they're going to remove the Storm Shield (Character) cost and give that to the Relic Shield instead.
Oh it was very likely, im just nothing if not an idiotic dreamer who holds out hope on certain things until I get the bad news to my face.
I do think overall Vets are a winner on this front as going to 2W and a 2+/4++ profile means that we're faaaaaaar more durable against the kinds of things that murderized vet teams in 8th. The drawback is that we're not as frustratingly hard to shift against high AP and high damage as we were. There's ways to mitigate that of course (access to some of the prime codex rules is going to be key for that for things like FNPs and strat support), but we'll have to see.
TheunlikelyGamer wrote: I’m interested in using vets with infernus heavy bolters. The heavy Bolter is now d2 and the heavy flamer is now 12”. Great for deepstrike or drop pod vets. I might take them over frag cannons. Great vs heavy infantry and hordes alike. Put the in terrain with a few storm shields and ignore most small arms fire .
I'm...honestly not sold on the IHB. They're just too expensive at 20 points. Two IHB vets is roughly the cost of three SB/SS vets, which do a far better job of horde blending, and only a slightly worse job of heavy infantry hunting (though with more T5 targets hitting the table I think even that is debatable IMO). Especially if you need to be on the bounce with a unit, that (effective) BS 4+ with the heavy bolter part hurts.
The stormshield nerf is awful news for vets, and just for a moment I thought they might sneak ahead again as our best troop choice. 4++ is not a patch on 3++.
grouchoben wrote: The stormshield nerf is awful news for vets, and just for a moment I thought they might sneak ahead again as our best troop choice. 4++ is not a patch on 3++.
Obviously a lot depends on points, but it also gives them +1 to their armor save. So they tank small arms on a 2+, and hard stuff at a 4++. Worth including a few as pure damage sponges? Replace terminators? (Although I suspect they will still be more efficient 2+ wounds)
TheunlikelyGamer wrote: I thought the IHB was 14 pts? With rerolls I wouldn’t worry about the -1 to hit. Also it’s nice to have the ability to use the mortal wound strat.
grouchoben wrote: The stormshield nerf is awful news for vets, and just for a moment I thought they might sneak ahead again as our best troop choice. 4++ is not a patch on 3++.
Remember, 3++ is being replaced with 4++, +1 to regular armour saves and +1W.
Doing some rough stats on tanking wounding hits from variable AP and D1/D2/D D3 weapons, the new profile is better/not worse at not loosing a model when any of the following is true:
vs D1 attacks, new profile wins regardless of cover or AP vs D2 attacks, if no cover new profile is better or same up to AP1, in cover better or same up to AP2
vs D D3 attacks, if no cover new profile is better or same up to AP3, in cover better or same up to AP4 (i.e. always better or same as before)
You are also half as vulnerable to mortal wounds.
It's going to come down to what's in the new codex/points changes as usual - as things stand vets have a "better" profile than not-gravis primaris given the free chainsword or paid for invul save.
**couple of edits because apparently copying maths from excel is hard
Another net positive for us (though it remains to be seen just how net):
Our entire army is generally Core units. Staying absurdly reliable with reroll support when other armies are losing that reliability on an as yet undefined amount of their units gives us yet another niche to roll into.
I currently have a conversion project in mind for a space marine chapter, and I'm looking for a 'home' for them (a parent chapter for me to be the successor of basically). Unfortunately (As always) there's trade offs for each chapter I like, so I'm wondering just how much of a loss it would be to do a space marine soup using Deathwatch?
Likely to be Deathwatch for the troops, with a spearhead of salamanders.
Obviously things are likely to change in the next couple months, but thought I'd start some rough thinking about it now
Sterling191 wrote: So the intent is a 30k-esque Blackshield type army? Or mechanically a mixed force using a detachment of Deathwatch and a detachment of Salamanders?
Just trying to clarify what is being asked so I can respond most accurately.
Well what I wanted to end up creating is a Black Dragons list, and I plan to convert a bunch of models to have bone-blades and such. But I also wanted to lean heavily on melta and -maybe- flamer weapons (if flamers with the new 12" rules actually become useful).
Salamanders were my first pick for this, as you can get max-shots on flamers when needed, and/or +1 to wound, which both would seem to be the ideal choices. (Also Brayarth... but that's mostly cos I love the lore and the model and him being an unkillable monster.)
Problem is that there's no real option to show the use of the bone blades. Veterans are probably the best option, but they can't take melta pistols or flamers (I'm sure they used to be able to once upon a time).
I have also considered blood angels and space wolves (wolf claws fit the bill quite well) but then I still lose out on all the melta/flamer side of things.
Deathwatch lets me take a melee weapon, while still including the melta/inferno/flamer theme. As troops too, which means I won't feel like I'm paying a troops tax (which I usually do with marines).
So the ideal combo might be a couple veteran troops units (melee weapon + whatever), and then salamanders for ... aggressors, eradicators, brayarth/leviathan maybe?
Though Deathwatch lets me deepstrike a leviathan. So there's that.
I think -optimally- I'm much better off sticking to either DW or Sallies, but in either case I have to give up half my 'theme', if you see what I mean.
tldr: A lot of this might be rambling and not make much sense.
Vets may not be able to take inferno pistols and hand flamers, but they *can* take Combi-meltas and Combi-flamers alongside melee weapons.
Also keep in mind that Deathwatch does not presently have a superdoctrine. The army may get one in the new supplement, but right now they sacrifice nothing if they soup in other Marine forces. This is something I would routinely do during the end of 9th to get access to things like Eliminators.
Personally, I'd recommend that you pick a force and focus on that and just fit the bone blades where you can aesthetically. With things like Bladeguard and Assault Intercessors in the mix now there's plenty of ways to get melee marines into the mix.
Sterling191 wrote: Vets may not be able to take inferno pistols and hand flamers, but they *can* take Combi-meltas and Combi-flamers alongside melee weapons.
Are you talking about deathwatch vets, or normal vets?
Cos deathwatch vets can take all of those options, including the inferno pistols etc.
standard vanilla vanguard veterans can't take inferno pistols, hand flamers, or combi weapons. All they get is a melee weapon and a bolt pistol / plasma pistol.
Sternguard can take combi weapons, but no melee weapons.
Are you talking about deathwatch vets, or normal vets?
Im being a potato because I had indeed forgotten Deathwatch Vets (which I shall herefore refer to as Vets because we're in the Deathwatch thread) could take the pistol variants. Which makes me even more confused, because it seems like they can fulfill all your requirements.
Are you talking about deathwatch vets, or normal vets?
Im being a potato because I had indeed forgotten Deathwatch Vets (which I shall herefore refer to as Vets because we're in the Deathwatch thread) could take the pistol variants. Which makes me even more confused, because it seems like they can fulfill all your requirements.
So what's the question being asked?
I guess as this is the DW thread I should attempt to push into a pure-DW list, so I guess the question becomes -
Is there a way to build the remainder of a DW list, that competes with what I was going to bring with a Sallies detachment. eg:
centrepiece dreadnought/vehicle - Brayarth in Sallies, but I guess deepstriking Leviathan works here (probably better tbh). DW do have the Blackstar which I like the model for, but I don't know how useful it is these days?
Flamers - Agressors with auto-max shot flamestorm seems like it has no match, in any army.
Meltas - However maybe DW eradicators? or other units with meltas? Any advantages to DW here with strats etc?
I've read through a lot of Space Marine stuff the last few days, and something unfortunate I've noticed (not totally related to Deathwatch) is GW seem to be removing all the units that used to have a lot of 'options'. All the new stuff is a fixed-loadout unit with no variable wargear. Deathwatch troops seem to be one of the remaining customisation "your guys" kind of places, and thats mostly only on the original oldmarine squad.
centrepiece dreadnought/vehicle - Brayarth in Sallies, but I guess deepstriking Leviathan works here (probably better tbh). DW do have the Blackstar which I like the model for, but I don't know how useful it is these days?
You're not going to get anything as effectively immortal as Brayarth. A Leviathan can be beefy, but honestly the slot tax they have to pay plus their higher cost and impending re-write with the 9th Imperial Armor has me very hesitant to recommend one.
DW do have the Blackstar which I like the model for, but I don't know how useful it is these days?
I've actually come around on the Blackstar for 9th. It's comparable in cost to most of the "smaller" Marine flyers, with a frankly respectable firepower output and, most importantly, loadout choices that allow for independence. Its a unit that can reroll all its 1s (hitting and wounding) just for showing up (assuming you're going after the right things of course). It's not gonna break the meta, but I really think it'll do work.
Flamers - Agressors with auto-max shot flamestorm seems like it has no match, in any army.
On the contrary, Deathwatch have the only Blast flamer weapon in the game: the Frag Cannon. Put a handful in your squads and enjoy those sweet sweet 2s6 S6, Ap1, D1 autohitting shots per gun. You won't get innate pluses to wound or shot number rerolls like you will for Salamanders, but get even a handful close to a unit with 11+ models in it and watch the carnage. Their only caveat is that we have no idea if they'll jump out to 12" range like other flamer weapons.
Meltas - However maybe DW eradicators? or other units with meltas? Any advantages to DW here with strats etc?
I'll be entirely honest, I cannot stand Eradicators, but that's a topic for another day. Yes, DW can field them, and even innately deep strike them. Alternatively, you've got MM attack bikes which do the same job, with better all-rounder firepower, better staying power and significantly improved mobility for a modest cost increase.
On the contrary, Deathwatch have the only Blast flamer weapon in the game: the Frag Cannon. Put a handful in your squads and enjoy those sweet sweet 2s6 S6, Ap1, D1 autohitting shots per gun. You won't get innate pluses to wound or shot number rerolls like you will for Salamanders, but get even a handful close to a unit with 11+ models in it and watch the carnage. Their only caveat is that we have no idea if they'll jump out to 12" range like other flamer weapons.
Yeh I actually have liked the -idea- of frag cannons for a long time, but my issue with them is they are 20 points, which seems like a lot on a unit which can't be delivered via deepstrike (too short range). If it gets changed to 12" it'll be great, but I suspect it wont as it's not actually a flamer, it's more like a big shotgun. Maybe this is what the Blackstar is best used for, but again at 20 points per frag (not counting the actual unit) it potentially makes the flyer a big priority target.
Yeh I actually have liked the -idea- of frag cannons for a long time, but my issue with them is they are 20 points, which seems like a lot on a unit which can't be delivered via deepstrike (too short range). If it gets changed to 12" it'll be great, but I suspect it wont as it's not actually a flamer, it's more like a big shotgun. Maybe this is what the Blackstar is best used for, but again at 20 points per frag (not counting the actual unit) it potentially makes the flyer a big priority target.
A veteran toting a frag cannon is 37 points. After the wound update that'll be roughly 40. A flamestorm aggressor is an equal number of points, cannot fit in a transport outside of the hilariously overcosted Repulsor chasses, and is a priority target. You dont need deep strike to deliver a five pack of Vets, with four storm shields, jumping out of a Razorback.
Yeh I actually have liked the -idea- of frag cannons for a long time, but my issue with them is they are 20 points, which seems like a lot on a unit which can't be delivered via deepstrike (too short range). If it gets changed to 12" it'll be great, but I suspect it wont as it's not actually a flamer, it's more like a big shotgun. Maybe this is what the Blackstar is best used for, but again at 20 points per frag (not counting the actual unit) it potentially makes the flyer a big priority target.
A veteran toting a frag cannon is 37 points. After the wound update that'll be roughly 40. A flamestorm aggressor is an equal number of points, cannot fit in a transport outside of the hilariously overcosted Repulsor chasses, and is a priority target. You dont need deep strike to deliver a five pack of Vets, with four storm shields, jumping out of a Razorback.
do you mean 5 vets with 4 frag cannons? Or 8 vets with 4 frags and 4 shields?
New changes to core units are gonna be significant for us I think, our mainline units will get core as default IMO which will open up a lot of options for combat squadded units.
Really excited for the book but frustrated at how much I need to wait on before making a finalized list (plus side I saved a lot of money for this marine release! )
Blast on the Frag is a little weird. Unless it's a unit of 11 its borderline meaningless and as soon as you cross 11 it gets pretty ludicrous pretty fast. Generally speaking, I've found big units of Frags overkill. 1-2 tops with Storm protection works out a lot better.
Razorbacks are likely to be a lot more viable transports for them unless GW gives Vanguards a purpose again.
LunarSol wrote: Blast on the Frag is a little weird. Unless it's a unit of 11 its borderline meaningless and as soon as you cross 11 it gets pretty ludicrous pretty fast. Generally speaking, I've found big units of Frags overkill. 1-2 tops with Storm protection works out a lot better.
Razorbacks are likely to be a lot more viable transports for them unless GW gives Vanguards a purpose again.
Agree on all counts here. Razorbacks were a staple in my DW lists in 8th, and I dont see that changing for 9th. With Vets going to 2w there's a lot more room for the 5-man elements to do the business.
Lemondish wrote: Keep in mind that you do still gain access to a +1 to wound Stratagem.
Deathwatch technically get multiple +1 to wound strats. Its CP intensive and generally doesnt get done, but if you need two big kill teams each to slag a target with different FoC roles, we can do it.
Regarding the announcement stream for the supplement... something still doesn't sit right with me regarding the way they referenced SIA.
I'm afraid they might make SIA into a Kill Team only effect.
If we get new/updated Kill Teams to account for Phobos and Indomitus models...I'm entirely okay with this (excepting a tiny number of niche cases like standalone Terminator squads or Characters, which should absolutely keep SIA). Getting access to the prime Codex armory is opening up a lot of doors, and if the tradeoff is not getting SIA on things we werent using SIA with anyway, thats entirely reasonable from a balance perspective.
I completely understand the concern though. Deathwatch are an army that has only a few things going for them, and any tweaks to those have very serious ramifications for the viability, performance and character of the faction.
Pyrosphere wrote: SIA won't go away since the codex show has confirmed it to still be there in the supplement.
SIA may not be going away, but there is plenty of play in how SIA can be applied, as well as how the SIA effects themselves can be altered. Just because SIA exists doesnt for a second mean its going to do exactly the same thing it did in 8th.
I'd suspect that we'll lose the 'wound on 2+' SIA in favor of something like +1 to wound. The developers seemed really paranoid about SIA in 8th and I think they are likely going to tone it down some for the new edition. That said, maybe the other ammo types will become more useful as a result?? Obviously we're in wait-and-see mode, but it's fun to speculate.
Currently, some of Deathwatch's strengths as I see them are:
Combat-squadding Fortis or Veteran squads to get ObSec bikes, Vanguard Vets, Aggressors, and Inceptors
Intercessor infantry that hit harder than anyone elses in shooting
New emphasis on Necrons will fit into our anti-Xenos niche.
So ignoring the troops options for the moment (veterans are good and fun, but who knows if they'll be playable in a months time, and the primaris stuff is ... probably fine, if boring).
What -else- does Deathwatch have that people put in their lists? (That is actually equal to / better than what other 'normal' chapters can put on the table)
The four strengths of DW as they stand (and they will not stand much longer) outside of their unique units are the Teleportarium strat, special ammo, the anti-xenos strats and the +1 to wound strats.
- DS'ing Leviathan and friends is still scary and flexible. - Hellfire is one of the strongest weapon options in the game, and now DW have doctrines T2 DS squads spitting out a tonne of -1 hellfire is very strong. - The xenos strats are a mixed bunch but very strong in the right matchup. - +1 to wound strats are money, pure and simple.
grouchoben wrote: The four strengths of DW as they stand (and they will not stand much longer) outside of their unique units are the Teleportarium strat, special ammo, the anti-xenos strats and the +1 to wound strats.
- DS'ing Leviathan and friends is still scary and flexible.
- Hellfire is one of the strongest weapon options in the game, and now DW have doctrines T2 DS squads spitting out a tonne of -1 hellfire is very strong.
- The xenos strats are a mixed bunch but very strong in the right matchup.
- +1 to wound strats are money, pure and simple.
The teleporting dreads are whats drawing me in (along with veterans, hoping they stay the same or improve rather than get legended).
Special ammo too. Same hopes.
+1 wound is ok but its 2CP with limits, instead of the 1CP no limit that other armies get. Dunno why.
+1 wound is ok but its 2CP with limits, instead of the 1CP no limit that other armies get. Dunno why.
Codex creep. Plain and simple. Deathwatch rules are two years older than anything other armies are using.
My concern is that if gw are releasing the primaris line as an answer to chapter house, this would mean their approaching goal is to sideline oldmarines and have primaris be the new space marines. So oldmarines would get legended eventually. Which means no deathwatch vets, which are 90% of what makes deathwatch interesting. (the chances of them giving the primaris kill team access to storm shields and frag cannons seems slim, unless they release kits for it)
My concern is that if gw are releasing the primaris line as an answer to chapter house, this would mean their approaching goal is to sideline oldmarines and have primaris be the new space marines. So oldmarines would get legended eventually. Which means no deathwatch vets, which are 90% of what makes deathwatch interesting. (the chances of them giving the primaris kill team access to storm shields and frag cannons seems slim, unless they release kits for it)
This is an entirely unfounded concern, and frankly one I'm really tired of hearing. Vets arent going anywhere.
My concern is that if gw are releasing the primaris line as an answer to chapter house, this would mean their approaching goal is to sideline oldmarines and have primaris be the new space marines. So oldmarines would get legended eventually. Which means no deathwatch vets, which are 90% of what makes deathwatch interesting. (the chances of them giving the primaris kill team access to storm shields and frag cannons seems slim, unless they release kits for it)
This is an entirely unfounded concern, and frankly one I'm really tired of hearing. Vets arent going anywhere.
You say unfounded but... GW have been systematically replacing all the firstborn units with Primaris(tm) trademarkable versions. They are currently missing battle tanks like the predator (which have already been announced, and are coming out soon), and a flyer/flying transport. They've filled most/all of the infantry roles, mostly by making a single unit for each role instead of the old way of having one unit that had a bunch of customisable options to let them fulfill multiple roles.
They have also been consistently pointing and power-creeping the Primaris variants of units, so that the firstborn units are now largely the least-optimal option to take. So less and less people are using them, particularly in tournaments. Meaning less demand for firstborn, and more Primaris sales (and more Primaris in peoples armies).
Which is the exact thing a company would do, if they wanted to replace an old line with a new one. If they'd done it when they first released Primaris, it would have been a marketting nightmare. Everyone who used to play marines would have complained. But by the time 10th edition rolls around, there will be enough Primaris in peoples army lists that GW can start legending firstborn units one by one and there will be...
Well people will complain, cos it's 40k and GW so people complain about everything. But it'll be much less of a problem by that point.
Case in point - The Deathwatch lists that are currently the 'best' builds all use the primaris kill teams. Barely any of them even use a single Vets unit.
Very happy to be proven wrong on this though. Extremely happy. I guess we will find out when the codex is released. If they make big sweeping improvements to the Vets unit, and release new firstborn models, then fine. But I suspect what will actually happen is the Primaris killteams will be expanded, and the Vets killteam will remain with overpriced options.
You say unfounded but... GW have been systematically replacing all the firstborn units with Primaris(tm) trademarkable versions.
This is completely false. They've been adding similar battlefield roles from the new range, but it hasnt for a moment replaced anything. GW still makes, sells, and profits from Firstborn kits of countless types.
They have also been consistently pointing and power-creeping the Primaris variants of units, so that the firstborn units are now largely the least-optimal option to take. So less and less people are using them, particularly in tournaments. Meaning less demand for firstborn, and more Primaris sales (and more Primaris in peoples armies).
Again, completely false. There are specific Primaris units that are an issue at present (looking at you Aggressors and Eradicators). But for every one of those, there's a Firstborn option that's not just viable, but equally problematic (say, Grav Devs, or Land Speeders, or the parade of Firstborn dreadnoughts).
Case in point - The Deathwatch lists that are currently the 'best' builds all use the primaris kill teams. Barely any of them even use a single Vets unit.
Do you know why Fortis Kill teams are more prevalent at the moment? Because their rules are better. It's that simple. In a month or two when Vets are the superior option, you'll see the pendulum swing in the opposite direction. I'd really love to hear you justify the squatting of Primaris at that point.
Very happy to be proven wrong on this though. Extremely happy. I guess we will find out when the codex is released. If they make big sweeping improvements to the Vets unit, and release new firstborn models, then fine. But I suspect what will actually happen is the Primaris killteams will be expanded, and the Vets killteam will remain with overpriced options.
This is abject lunacy. Of course we're going to see expanded Primaris kill team options. Deathwatch are two years behind the curve on getting model support, and the edition change is the means by which GW is (at least claiming) to remedy that. That doesnt for a fething moment equate to the squatting of Veterans.
In summation: sod right off with the whole "Veterans are getting squatted" gibberish when they're poised to be Deathwatch's premier unit.
Ignoring the previous, as it seems to ignore a large amount of what GW have done historically, and moving on to another topic:
Now that Deathwatch are being folded into the new codex, and after today's reveal of some of the updates traits etc, it occurs to me... Unless they add in a restriction (which they may), there might be the possibility of a deathwatch successor, meaning you can pick your own two traits.
Calling it a successor would be unfluffy, but thought about a different way - you're just using different mission tactics, drawn from the wide experience your veterans have.
Not sure if any of the successor combinations are better than the default deathwatch, but might have some merits.
I think that the chapter tactic of re-roll 1's to hit vs Xenos just got a boost as it seems to ignore the 'core' role that other chapters are getting limited to. There is also the possibility of a super-doctrine to bring Deathwatch even more in line with the other chapters. Combined with the addition of the new units and the possibilities that all the new Primaris foot troopers hint at for Fortis teams and its pretty exciting!
Niiru wrote: Not sure if any of the successor combinations are better than the default deathwatch, but might have some merits.
Maybe the mechanic is not related to Successors, but different watch fortresses across the galaxy as they are observing different threats.
But to me this would be very surprising.
I'd actually be more surprised if Deathwatch -didn't- get the ability to take successors, as every other chapter in the main codex gets them so GW would have to make a special exception for Deathwatch. I wouldn't put it past them to completely forget about DW and just leave them the same as the others (at least until someone breaks it, and it gets an FAQ).
I actually think the DW trait is fairly strong when it's in use, but half of it only works against xenos which is unfortunate depending on your meta.
I do agree that SIA will end up being our Doctrine equivalent/replacement.
bmsattler wrote: I think that the chapter tactic of re-roll 1's to hit vs Xenos just got a boost as it seems to ignore the 'core' role that other chapters are getting limited to. There is also the possibility of a super-doctrine to bring Deathwatch even more in line with the other chapters. Combined with the addition of the new units and the possibilities that all the new Primaris foot troopers hint at for Fortis teams and its pretty exciting!
Reroll 1s to hit against non-Imperium, non-Chaos is melee only. It's a nice little bonus, but in reality its doing bupkis.
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LunarSol wrote: It's very possible that SIA and Killteams are written essentially as a super doctrine now.
Kill Teams are units. Its going to be very hard to make that into a superdoctrine ability. Suddenly they disappear if you're not a pure DW army? I dont think so.
So, a potential imminent time to shine for the corvus blackstar? Upcoming changes that are pretty much confirmed now:
1. marine vehicles in general are probably not <CORE>
2. DW chapter tactics will be to the SM codex standard of affecting all units (no longer infantry/bikes/etc)
Assuming current prices are relatively unchanged, for 15 points more than a las pred the corvus can:
1. reroll 1's to hit against non-FLY (auspex array)
2. reroll 1's to wound against FOC of choice (less restricted than before with lieutenants available for <CORE> auras duty)
3. +3 wounds/-1 to hit/reservable/manoeuvrable for better durability compared to the pred
4. comparable raw firepower to the pred with las/stormstrikes
5. is a tougher stormtalon for the same price with assault cannon/stormstrikes
SIA being restricted to CORE units is a tricky one... cos at the moment the DWHQ choices are already pretty slim pickings, and the Guardian Spear is (currently) picked out as being a specific weapon that gets special ammo.
I mean... it kinda makes sense that a captains "Aura of command" works to give his troops better aiming, and that it wouldn't work on himself (cos he's already a veteran marksman etc, and why would his battle orders work on himself), but having it so that your troops get special ammunition but your leaders are stuck with cheapo bargain basement shells is ... weird.
Well, it could be a simple fix of giving Deathwatch characters the Core designation. It's design space that could allow different armies to do different things. Or I could just be completely wrong.
SIA seems to be exactly the kind of thing that they would restrict to core units.
SIA doesnt need to be core. It's a datasheet ability already. If they dont want a unit to get it, dont give it to them.
I can't imagine they'll keep SIA a datasheet ability. They'd get stuck duplicating a ton of datasheets for all the stuff that has Bolt Pistols. Seems far more likely we'll get a list of which weapons can fire SIA.
I can't imagine they'll keep SIA a datasheet ability. They'd get stuck duplicating a ton of datasheets for all the stuff that has Bolt Pistols. Seems far more likely we'll get a list of which weapons can fire SIA.
We already have that. Its the second half of the SIA equation. Its why things like Aggressors or Rhinos cant use SIA.
Again, if GW doesnt want non "proper Deathwatch" units to not get SIA, they simply...dont update their datasheet to have the SIA ability. There are relatively few actual datasheets for the army. Our largest source of units at present is actually Forge World. We've already seen supplements / PAs that tack on or alter datasheet function. All they need is a half page insert with the individual units from the prime marine codex that gain SIA, alongside the weapon list of which weapons can utilize SIA. Easy peasy.
I can't imagine they'll keep SIA a datasheet ability. They'd get stuck duplicating a ton of datasheets for all the stuff that has Bolt Pistols. Seems far more likely we'll get a list of which weapons can fire SIA.
We already have that. Its the second half of the SIA equation. Its why things like Aggressors or Rhinos cant use SIA.
Again, if GW doesnt want non "proper Deathwatch" units to not get SIA, they simple...dont update their datasheet to have the SIA ability. There are relatively few actual datasheets for the army. Our largest source of units at present is actually Forge World.
There's tons of things in the current codex that have SIA for really dumb reasons. Hellblasters being the standout, but all of the HQ variations, Captains, Librarians, Chaplains, etc. Reprinting all those datasheets for the supplement seems to defeat the purpose of making it part of the codex in the first place.
There's tons of things in the current codex that have SIA for really dumb reasons. Hellblasters being the standout, but all of the HQ variations, Captains, Librarians, Chaplains, etc. Reprinting all those datasheets for the supplement seems to defeat the purpose of making it part of the codex in the first place.
Characters with SIA are dumb? That's a new one. For most marine armies character shooting is largely a formality. For Deathwatch it's significantly dangerous. And thats before you factor in possible access to prime Codex Relics and/or Special Issue Wargear.
There's tons of things in the current codex that have SIA for really dumb reasons. Hellblasters being the standout, but all of the HQ variations, Captains, Librarians, Chaplains, etc. Reprinting all those datasheets for the supplement seems to defeat the purpose of making it part of the codex in the first place.
Characters with SIA are dumb? That's a new one. For most marine armies character shooting is largely a formality. For Deathwatch it's significantly dangerous. And thats before you factor in possible access to prime Codex Relics and/or Special Issue Wargear.
I mean there's a bunch of stuff that technically has SIA you wouldn't think of immediately that would need to be reprinted for no reason other than to add SIA on it. It caught me all the time when they charged for it. There's no reason to make DW part of the main codex and then reprint every datasheet than can take a Bolt Pistol. SIA would work much better as an army wide special rule that effects a list of weapons. That would also future proof it for whatever new Primaris kits they release in the future.
I don't get why you want to reprint SIA on every Datasheet. Right now this is a List of Weapons that can use them and for a generic Marine codex you can just slap a list of units that have them right on the next page.
There are several examples where this solution is already used by GW for other exceptions.
I mean there's a bunch of stuff that technically has SIA you wouldn't think of immediately that would need to be reprinted for no reason other than to add SIA on it. It caught me all the time when they charged for it. There's no reason to make DW part of the main codex and then reprint every datasheet than can take a Bolt Pistol. SIA would work much better as an army wide special rule that effects a list of weapons. That would also future proof it for whatever new Primaris kits they release in the future.
This isnt just about pistols and you know it. Furthermore, i've already provided a workaround, and one that GW have already demonstrated a willingness to utilize.
Pyrosphere wrote: I don't get why you want to reprint SIA on every Datasheet.
Because it gives substantially more flexibility in titrating the power of the ability. If all you have is a list of weapons, then every weapon gets the ability. If all you have is the ability itself, then everything with the ability gets the bonus. With the two working in tandem you can be selective. And selectivity means a significantly lower risk of blanket nerfs that feth over an entire army.
Pyrosphere wrote: Right now this is a List of Weapons that can use them and for a generic Marine codex you can just slap a list of units that have them right on the next page.
I fully expect to see something like this as part of the Day 1 bridging FAQ for Deathwatch, and a physical page in the supplement.
What models with a SIA capable weapon shouldn't be affected? If its just vehicles that's something that's trivial to filter out with the rule itself (though even that I find kind of suspect).
Pistols matter, simply because there's a bunch of models in our codex that only had SIA for their pistols. A lot of similar models that aren't in our codex are in the same boat. It's really clunky right now where we have units with the same weapons but only certain ones have SIA because SIA isn't future proofed in its current form.
LunarSol wrote: What models with a SIA capable weapon shouldn't be affected?
That should be determined on a case by case basis, and not something as inane as "welp, you technically have the Vehicle keyword, therefore you cant use it" without an evaluation of the unit as a whole. Interlocking systems are complex. I get it. But nuance in rules manipulation is critical to find the middle ground between broken (overpowered) and broken (not worth playing).
Pistols matter, simply because there's a bunch of models in our codex that only had SIA for their pistols.
Nowhere did I say pistols dont matter. What I said was that reducing the argument down to "a whole bunch of units have pistols, therefore it's too resource intensive to keep SIA as an ability" was shortsighted, and a recipe for the kinds of blanket nerfs that break armies.
A lot of similar models that aren't in our codex are in the same boat. It's really clunky right now where we have units with the same weapons but only certain ones have SIA because SIA isn't future proofed in its current form.
We're in a brand new edition. Which makes this the perfect time to fix SIA by doing something as wildly creative as...defining a way beyond reprinting datasheets that a particular definition can be codified in rules and modularized. Like, for instance, the way that the bulk of the codices, supplements and rules updates post 8th's 2.0 Marine function.
Perhaps something as crazy as say, a list of units printed in a supplement (and expanded or edited in a digital FAQ as needed) that lists all units that gain the SIA ability if they did not otherwise have it.
We're in a brand new edition. Which makes this the perfect time to fix SIA by doing something as wildly creative as...defining a way beyond reprinting datasheets that a particular definition can be codified in rules and modularized. Like, for instance, the way that the bulk of the codices, supplements and rules updates post 8th's 2.0 Marine function.
Perhaps something as crazy as say, a list of units printed in a supplement (and expanded or edited in a digital FAQ as needed) that lists all units that gain the SIA ability if they did not otherwise have it.
If the most recent rumours are to be believed (and a lot of them are pretty believable) the creative solution GW have for SIA in the new codex is... to just remove it entirely. Also no bike squads.
If the most recent rumours are to be believed (and a lot of them are pretty believable) the creative solution GW have for SIA in the new codex is... to just remove it entirely. Also no bike squads.
Putting aside the fact that recent "rumors" are sourceable to quite literally a poster on Dakka with zero attribution or corroboration, why do you expect SIA to be in the prime Marine Codex? Marine units have never had SIA. Deathwatch units do.
SIA is in the Supplement, just like it was in the Deathwatch Codex in 8th. It'll be dealt with where the rules for this specific faction are delineated.
If the most recent rumours are to be believed (and a lot of them are pretty believable) the creative solution GW have for SIA in the new codex is... to just remove it entirely. Also no bike squads.
Putting aside the fact that recent "rumors" are sourceable to quite literally a poster on Dakka with zero attribution or corroboration, why do you expect SIA to be in the prime Marine Codex? Marine units have never had SIA. Deathwatch units do.
SIA is in the Supplement, just like it was in the Deathwatch Codex in 8th. It'll be dealt with there.
This is definitely the case - the same "source" has a BAWL trait listed as a singular option, which is exactly the same standard as the last codex - chapter tactics and a single trait in the codex, all other unique sub faction content is in the supplement. Expect the promised day 1 FAQ to cover over a few gaps.
SIA not being listed wasn't really a serious comment (the odds of losing SIA is pretty slim, as it would effectively legend Deathwatch as a faction, and GW won't be likely to do that AND bother releasing a supplement. Unless it turns out to be another white dwarf 'supplement' like last time).
However the loss of bike squads for deathwatch seemed... weird.
And yeh, sure, "unconfirmed rumours etc etc" blah blah, but a lot of them are very feasible, and this just seems like... why make up a detail like that? I mean why troll deathwatch players? There's dozens of us!
Sterling191 wrote: Putting aside the fact that recent "rumors" are sourceable to quite literally a poster on Dakka with zero attribution or corroboration, why do you expect SIA to be in the prime Marine Codex? Marine units have never had SIA. Deathwatch units do.
SIA is in the Supplement, just like it was in the Deathwatch Codex in 8th. It'll be dealt with where the rules for this specific faction are delineated.
As I already mentioned in that specific thread: Sternguard always had SIA
And yes, Sterling is right. SIA ist still there. If it is not in the Codex it's in the Supplement, because GW already has confirmed it's existence in the codex show on Twitch. But I am repeating myself here.
Leth wrote: It will be interesting to see what they give us to balance out that half of our chapter tactics are worthless most of the time.
Since the Grey Knights' CT is worthless even a bigger chunk of the time and GW didn't move a finger to change that for like 2 Editions now, I suspect there won't be anything for Deathwatch to have that balanced out.
Leth wrote: It will be interesting to see what they give us to balance out that half of our chapter tactics are worthless most of the time.
also be interesting to see what options we have to change targets of re-roll wounds.
Remember that half of the Imperial Fist CT only affects targets that you will quite literally never see on the table (just as one example). We're far from the only ones with wacky bonuses that rarely come up. Furthermore, the melee reroll ones is technically a buff, albeit a stupidly implemented one as its more than we had in 8th. Yes, it's dumb, yes Im 100% going successor if we have Mission Tactics as an available choice, but its still more than before.
As to Mission Tactics itself, I highly doubt any of our options for on-the-fly adjustment are going away. We have a WLT, a Relic and a strat designed to manipulate that system. Plus, we get Lieutenants now (or at least one flavor of them).
Niiru wrote: Unless it turns out to be another white dwarf 'supplement' like last time).
To be fair, that update was really powerful, even though it came across as extremely lazy. Had 9th and Covid not effectively killed 8th around that time, I think we would have started having some solid showings.
Niiru wrote: Unless it turns out to be another white dwarf 'supplement' like last time).
To be fair, that update was really powerful, even though it came across as extremely lazy. Had 9th and Covid not effectively killed 8th around that time, I think we would have started having some solid showings.
Wait... Was it? Wasn't it just giving DW access to (some of) the space marine codex updates?
I mean sure those were strong updates, and brought dw closer to the main codex armies, but I don't recall anything that actually gave dw anything uniquely good for them.
Wait... Was it? Wasn't it just giving DW access to (some of) the space marine codex updates?
I mean sure those were strong updates, and brought dw closer to the main codex armies, but I don't recall anything that actually gave dw anything uniquely good for them.
It really wasn't. The WD update allowed Deathwatch to use Doctrines, Litanies and a handful of stratagems. It did nothing to fix the underlying issues with the army.
Nothing uniquely good, but SIA on top of Doctrines is powerful. The Litanies were the most underwhelming portion by far, but our melee isn't our strength anyway.
Leth wrote: It will be interesting to see what they give us to balance out that half of our chapter tactics are worthless most of the time.
also be interesting to see what options we have to change targets of re-roll wounds.
Remember that half of the Imperial Fist CT only affects targets that you will quite literally never see on the table (just as one example). We're far from the only ones with wacky bonuses that rarely come up. Furthermore, the melee reroll ones is technically a buff, albeit a stupidly implemented one as its more than we had in 8th. Yes, it's dumb, yes Im 100% going successor if we have Mission Tactics as an available choice, but its still more than before.
As to Mission Tactics itself, I highly doubt any of our options for on-the-fly adjustment are going away. We have a WLT, a Relic and a strat designed to manipulate that system. Plus, we get Lieutenants now (or at least one flavor of them).
The codex preview from a few weeks back featured a generic primaris lieutenant in the DW section of the upcoming books vid, so at least two counting indominatus guy. I'm hoping restrictions on mono-pose/no swappable shoulder pad characters are relaxed a bit, would be nice to add the phobos characters in as options alongside lieutenants.
The codex preview from a few weeks back featured a generic primaris lieutenant in the DW section of the upcoming books vid, so at least two counting indominatus guy. I'm hoping restrictions on mono-pose/no swappable shoulder pad characters are relaxed a bit, would be nice to add the phobos characters in as options alongside lieutenants.
I hope (and fully expect) that we'll get access to all the generic Marine characters, but until we get the Codex I try not to make assumptions.
LunarSol wrote: Nothing uniquely good, but SIA on top of Doctrines is powerful. The Litanies were the most underwhelming portion by far, but our melee isn't our strength anyway.
The interplay of SIA and doctrines isnt nearly as beneficial as it may seem due to the hard caps baked into SIA.
The interplay of SIA and doctrines isnt nearly as beneficial as it may seem due to the hard caps baked into SIA.
Between Hellfire rounds being the generally best option and the efficiency of Storm Bolters and Assault Rifles, I don't think that's really a huge issue.
Between Hellfire rounds being the generally best option and the efficiency of Storm Bolters and Assault Rifles, I don't think that's really a huge issue.
Then you're being shortsighted. Making the single point of failure in a Deathwatch army the interplay of one specific ammo type with AP0 weapons is a recipe for long term disaster. Especially going into a meta packing serious vehicular and FNP related threats that we already seriously struggle with.
Between Hellfire rounds being the generally best option and the efficiency of Storm Bolters and Assault Rifles, I don't think that's really a huge issue.
Then you're being shortsighted. Making the single point of failure in a Deathwatch army the interplay of one specific ammo type with AP0 weapons is a recipe for long term disaster. Especially going into a meta packing serious vehicular and FNP related threats that we already seriously struggle with.
Seeing as a lot of the infantry-based threats (which is what SIA is designed for) likely to show up in the meta are gonna be T5, being able to wound them all on 2's seems like a pretty decent buff for deathwatch. Means DW standard bolters will be forcing more saves than a lot of other armies can against them. What would other marine armies be doing that is better?
Between Hellfire rounds being the generally best option and the efficiency of Storm Bolters and Assault Rifles, I don't think that's really a huge issue.
Then you're being shortsighted. Making the single point of failure in a Deathwatch army the interplay of one specific ammo type with AP0 weapons is a recipe for long term disaster. Especially going into a meta packing serious vehicular and FNP related threats that we already seriously struggle with.
Seeing as a lot of the infantry-based threats (which is what SIA is designed for) likely to show up in the meta are gonna be T5, being able to wound them all on 2's seems like a pretty decent buff for deathwatch. Means DW standard bolters will be forcing more saves than a lot of other armies can against them. What would other marine armies be doing that is better?
SIA increases the chance to cause damage, but does not increase the maximum damage potential of any gun it is on (i.e. a D1 weapon is still D1) - bolter discipline on the other hand doubles the effectiveness of any rapid firing weapon not using SIA; so what other marine armies are doing that is better is firing more shots at safer ranges.
Against the dreaded T5 target hellfire will do a little better than a regular bolter discipline platform, but against anything lighter shooting more is always better.
Seeing as a lot of the infantry-based threats (which is what SIA is designed for) likely to show up in the meta are gonna be T5, being able to wound them all on 2's seems like a pretty decent buff for deathwatch. Means DW standard bolters will be forcing more saves than a lot of other armies can against them. What would other marine armies be doing that is better?
You mean besides having a full roster with which to draw from with more than two functioning WLTs and more than two relics worth taking, actual full model support, stratagems that allow for more than simply SLIGHTLY MOAR DAKKA and an "updated" Codex that was a year and a half out of date when it was scribbled on the back of a napkin?
The GWPA did precisely one thing: make Deathwatch slightly better at mulching infantry. A job that we already excelled at.
SIA increases the chance to cause damage, but does not increase the maximum damage potential of any gun it is on (i.e. a D1 weapon is still D1) - bolter discipline on the other hand doubles the effectiveness of any rapid firing weapon not using SIA; so what other marine armies are doing that is better is firing more shots at safer ranges.
Against the dreaded T5 target hellfire will do a little better than a regular bolter discipline platform, but against anything lighter shooting more is always better.
This is part of it, and certainly emblematic of how 8th's Marine updates completely passed Deathwatch by due to limited compatibility with our core ruleset, but the root issues run deeper. With extremely limited mobility, no effective answer for high toughness Vehicle targets and a highly fragile and expensive unit roster, there just wasnt a place for Deathwatch.
2+ reroll 1s is better than wound on 5s with double the shots IMO.
When it’s not better Deathwatch still have the option of firing as bolter drill so it’s a moot point.
The big thing I am looking forward to is seeing how the core word interacts with our killteams. The opportunity to take 5 man obsec outrider units would also be Very powerful.
Leth wrote: 2+ reroll 1s is better than wound on 5s with double the shots IMO.
Yep, firing twice gives 100% improvement, hellfire only overtakes that when the chance of passing the wound roll is improved by more than 100%, the effective +3 to wound vs T5 and up is where that kicks in. If heavy intercessors get SIA that's going to give me a headache figuring out what rounds are best out of a S5 bolter...
Leth wrote: When it’s not better Deathwatch still have the option of firing as bolter drill so it’s a moot point.
They do have the option, but remember that DW units have a tendency to be more expensive per model, and that the bolter carriers are the core part of the army, not just slot tax fillers and objective holders.
Leth wrote: The big thing I am looking forward to is seeing how the core word interacts with our killteams. The opportunity to take 5 man obsec outrider units would also be Very powerful.
Me too, if all primaris units can be mixed into killteams there are going to some really interesting combo's.
Unless they add a "Your weapons all use X table" to the deathwatch supplement I believe we are going to pay the same amount of points for our units overall but we will see.
A bit of info so far from the codex leaks (that are backed up by images from the new codex so I'm inclined to trust them):
The following units cannot be from the Deathwatch Chapter: ASSAULT SQUAD; ATTACK BIKE SQUAD; BIKE SQUAD; DEVASTATOR SQUAD; STERNGUARD VETERAN SQUAD; TACTICAL SQUAD; SCOUT units.
Im a little bit saddened by the exclusion of attack bikes, but hoping that they're addressed in the Deathwatch specific Biker squad that we have (yes, we have it, its not going away, the exclusion for regular bikes is because the statlines are different and itd be silly if we could get two). Looks like Phobos units are a go though.
Sterling191 wrote: A bit of info so far from the codex leaks (that are backed up by images from the new codex so I'm inclined to trust them):
The following units cannot be from the Deathwatch Chapter: ASSAULT SQUAD; ATTACK BIKE SQUAD; BIKE SQUAD; DEVASTATOR SQUAD; STERNGUARD VETERAN SQUAD; TACTICAL SQUAD; SCOUT units.
Im a little bit saddened by the exclusion of attack bikes, but hoping that they're addressed in the Deathwatch specific Biker squad that we have (yes, we have it, its not going away, the exclusion for regular bikes is because the statlines are different and itd be silly if we could get two). Looks like Phobos units are a go though.
Also denies the Assault Squad, but doesn't seem to specify the new Assault Intercessors (which I believe are a better unit anyway?) so there's that. Though I'm still wondering if the Ass-cessors will be a killteam option.
Insularum wrote: If heavy intercessors get SIA that's going to give me a headache figuring out what rounds are best out of a S5 bolter...
Heavy bolters don't get access to SIA, or at least they don't right now and I can't see them changing it. I think the best bolter profile that gets SIA is S4.
I doubt it. Since we have access to doctrines, I doubt any unit will get SIA except Kill Teams, so it depends what units they decide to put into a kill team.
Also I bet this means we will have a phobos armor based kill team!
Which is perfect because I was building lists and finding I wanted to have infiltrators before the game started.
As much as I would LOVE a Phobos kill team, im not certain that there's any way to read this particular tea leaf. We (almost certainly, just holding off on doing my happy dance until we have the physical page on an image) have access to individual Phobos units now, but that doesnt necessarily extend to a bespoke unit formation for our supplement.
Even without a proper Phobos kill team, DW might be able to lay claim to the dubious title of best Reivers - phobos librarian putting out shrouding/soul sight would be a solid way to pump out some hellfire shots without much in the way of reprisal (assuming obscuration doesn't change).
I'm in the wait and see camp for masters of the chapter, I'm suspicious of DW having access to all of this given the watch master/chapter master overlap.
Insularum wrote: Even without a proper Phobos kill team, DW might be able to lay claim to the dubious title of best Reivers - phobos librarian putting out shrouding/soul sight would be a solid way to pump out some hellfire shots without much in the way of reprisal (assuming obscuration doesn't change).
It's going to come down to points. If Reivers are cheaper than Intercessors, there may very well be play for them. One of the things thats shaking out of the tournament experience is the value of cheaply deep strikeable units for specific scoring actions in the enemy DZ.
Insularum wrote: Even without a proper Phobos kill team, DW might be able to lay claim to the dubious title of best Reivers - phobos librarian putting out shrouding/soul sight would be a solid way to pump out some hellfire shots without much in the way of reprisal (assuming obscuration doesn't change).
I'm in the wait and see camp for masters of the chapter, I'm suspicious of DW having access to all of this given the watch master/chapter master overlap.
Someone who has the book said we DONT get chapter master upgrade on Bolter, however we still got everything else. This is in line with the other exclusions we got.
So something I notice (and I know, "it'll be in the supplement etc etc" but read my reasoning first), is that in this relic terminator datasheet it actually includes the special rules (the stuff you'd get in supplements) for adding the Deathwing and Wolf Guard keywords to the units if they're in those armies.
Doesn't mention Deathwatch. And sure, you might say "deathwatch don't have special terminators"... but these terminators do get bolters, so you would think that they would get a "if in a deathwatch army, gains the special issue ammunition ability".
So sure, might be in the supplement and written in some weird way, or maybe it's being changed to a non-ability. Like becoming a stratagem, or becoming weapon-specific instead of unit...
Just found it interesting. Doesn't give us any additional information either way.
It could just as easily be GW forgetting about deathwatch again and just not writing the rule.
Edit: Occurs to me I'm very tired, and deathwatch didn't used to have access to these. So maybe they just don't get SIA. But they're not on the restricted units list, so seems deathwatch -will- get them in future... maybe.
I think the name actually gives it away....Special issue. Regular units just aren't going to get it, I'd probably put money on it. SIA will be a kill team rule only, or any other specific unit that is in the supplement (DW bikers for example). Fluff will be...a unique unit put together to fulfill a specific task and issued special ammunition for the job. And then you get the rule in the datasheet. I think that will be the negative to getting access to more units, which tbh, isn't a bad thing.
Sadly confirmed that we cant take successor CTs, which I get, but is still something of a disappointment. Also an important note, you can take a Chapter Master with a Captain in a single detachment still. I know there was some worry about taking a WM with another Watch Captain given the "Only 1 Captain per detachment" rule, but it's an explicit allowance made by the Chapter Master ruleset. It doesnt *technically* extend to the WM yet, but if its not in the day 1 FAQ I'll be highly surprised.
That being said, I think there's already some standout options to consider from the new codex. This isnt by any means intended to be a comprehensive list, rather just a few preliminary thoughts that are already shaping list building strategies in my addled brain. Im certain we'll notice, discuss and analyze more in the coming days, and some of the below may be off base. That's part of the fun of a new codex, seeing what new tools we have to work with.
Librarians. No, I cant believe I'm actually writing that either. For players leaning towards Primaris based units, their capacity to put out a 5++ bubble is going to be a huge help in the era of Eradicators and other AP ridiculous weapons. Is it worth giving up Abhor the Witch against armies like Grey Knights, Eldar, Tyranids or Thousand Sons? I honestly dont know.
Apothecaries. They come standard with the 6+++ Father of the Future aura now, and can guarantee a resurrection every turn (its a stratagem). Probably even worth taking the Chief Apothecary upgrade now to heal two separate units *and* to make the resurrection a 0CP cost, especially if you're packing Terminators or Gravis lads.
Stalker Bolt Rifles. Yes, I know they were already a pretty good choice, but the Intercessor stratagems have been revised and we can double tap with them. That's right, we can double tap with AP3 D2 SIA. Woof.
Dreadnoughts in general. Getting Duty Eternal as an always on benefit is INSANE. Coupled with still being CORE, and the capacity to become either a Captain or a Lieutenant on command (and effect themselves!) I think they're going to be serious contenders. Honorable mention to the Redemptor plasma cannon going to flat 3D on the overcharge profile.
So the new codex review is out, and nothing much surprising for deathwatch so far.
However, from the review, it seems the supplement codices get access to the successor traits (as you'd expect)... but I haven't yet seen anything that prevents deathwatch from doing the same.
Not sure if this is just an oversight on the part of the review, or if it'll change when the supplement turns out (eg. only getting SIA if you're Deathwatch and not sucessor or something) but still, interesting.
Edit: Seems someone just ninjad me to it haha, but with the opposite result (deathwatch can't take tactics). Not sure where they got this from, as I didn't see it mentioned at all in the reviews I saw (it actually implied the opposite in the goonhammer one).
Niiru wrote: Not sure where they got this from, as I didn't see it mentioned at all in the reviews I saw (it actually implied the opposite in the goonhammer one).
It's an explicit carve out in the Successor Chapter rules. I'll try to find the image...
And here we go, apologies for the sideways orientation but this isnt my pic and I work with what I have.
Niiru wrote: Not sure where they got this from, as I didn't see it mentioned at all in the reviews I saw (it actually implied the opposite in the goonhammer one).
It's an explicit carve out in the Successor Chapter rules. I'll try to find the image...
Please do, but tbh that's what I expected it to be in the first place, but was surprised when the goonhammer guys didn't mention it (especially when I think the guy who wrote the review has a DW army haha)
Ahh I see, it specified it has to be "first founding"
Unfortunate really, as it makes the DW trait one of the weaker ones it seems, unless you happen to be playing against xenos. Fluffy, sure, but might end up working against them.
You know, the more I sit here and look at the language, the less certain of my interpretation that I am. What we're currently missing is the supplement level rule that explicitly allows for successors of an individual chapter, and therefore that successor being a valid recipient of the special rules for the corresponding progenitor. It's a weird catch-22, but I *think* that means its a no-go for now, as there's no capacity in the existing Deathwatch ruleset to swap out <DEATHWATCH> for <CHAPTER> on a lot of units and abilities, which would result in odd interactions.
I'm unsure we're going to know the successor answer until the supplement, or if they answer the question in the day 1 FAQ.
What I find a bit awkward is that, reading the unit-exclusions for DA/SW/DW, Deathwatch can't be played with Firstborn Maries atm since this new book replaces the standalone 8th edition codex due to the fold-in and DW is not allowed to take Tacs, Devas etc. and Kill Teams aren't there yet. So several weeks "primaris only" until the supplement comes out o_O
Pyrosphere wrote: What I find a bit awkward is that, reading the unit-exclusions for DA/SW/DW, Deathwatch can't be played with Firstborn Maries atm since this new book replaces the standalone 8th edition codex due to the fold-in and DW is not allowed to take Tacs, Devas etc. and Kill Teams aren't there yet. So several weeks "primaris only" until the supplement comes out o_O
Pyrosphere wrote: What I find a bit awkward is that, reading the unit-exclusions for DA/SW/DW, Deathwatch can't be played with Firstborn Maries atm since this new book replaces the standalone 8th edition codex due to the fold-in and DW is not allowed to take Tacs, Devas etc. and Kill Teams aren't there yet. So several weeks "primaris only" until the supplement comes out o_O
i believe gw said in an article there will be day 1 faq's for the chapters that had stand alone books
So not DW specific, other than maybe useful for teleporting, but the review seemed to say contemptors went down to 9W.
Which sounds like a nerf, but I actually think its a buff, right?
Iron hands character contempttors get protection (which is bad for everyone but IH), but wouldnt it also mean contemptors no longer have a degradation table?
Niiru wrote: So not DW specific, other than maybe useful for teleporting, but the review seemed to say contemptors went down to 9W.
Which sounds like a nerf, but I actually think its a buff, right?
Iron hands character contempttors get protection (which is bad for everyone but IH), but wouldnt it also mean contemptors no longer have a degradation table?
Niiru wrote: So not DW specific, other than maybe useful for teleporting, but the review seemed to say contemptors went down to 9W.
Which sounds like a nerf, but I actually think its a buff, right?
Iron hands character contempttors get protection (which is bad for everyone but IH), but wouldnt it also mean contemptors no longer have a degradation table?
they are 9 and they dont degrade
And the normal dreads get duty eternal baked in for free now, which is a pretty big buff. Not sure about the redemptor though. But seems like teleporting dreads (if we keep that strat) might be fun.
Niiru wrote: So not DW specific, other than maybe useful for teleporting, but the review seemed to say contemptors went down to 9W.
Which sounds like a nerf, but I actually think its a buff, right?
Iron hands character contempttors get protection (which is bad for everyone but IH), but wouldnt it also mean contemptors no longer have a degradation table?
they are 9 and they dont degrade
And the normal dreads get duty eternal baked in for free now, which is a pretty big buff. Not sure about the redemptor though. But seems like teleporting dreads (if we keep that strat) might be fun.
all the dreads have duty eternal built in. contemptor and redemptor included
all the dreads have duty eternal built in. contemptor and redemptor included
All the *Codex* dreadnoughts do. We'll see what happens to the FW ones.
Yeh, true, but the Codex dreads are already pretty decent. If a leviathan gets it too it might be fun, but may be more in points too, and teleporting in double codex dreads of some flavour might be decent enough.
There is a ton to discuss buried in there. I have to say the SIA changes are pretty sensible and aside from vengeance they are as we anticipated. Glad to see dragonfire is ALL cover not just light as many predicted. What do you guys think of the new vengeance rounds?
Vortenger wrote: There is a ton to discuss buried in there. I have to say the SIA changes are pretty sensible and aside from vengeance they are as we anticipated. Glad to see dragonfire is ALL cover not just light as many predicted. What do you guys think of the new vengeance rounds?
They dont matter when the only weapons that can make use of it are an RF1 24" range S4 AP- D1 bolter, or a Heavy 1 S4 AP2 D2 rifle.
Know what's worse? Due to the way they worded the preamble of the FAQ, we currently have no relics, WLTs or stratagems either.
I can take Storm Shields on any guy in a veteran squad, or terminators in a proteus kill team, or storm shield terminators? Seems i can pick between 1+, 2+, 3+ armor models in 1 unit if I want to.
You can take a Primaris Captain just out of the base marine codex and give him the Deathwatch keyword.
I can take Storm Shields on any guy in a veteran squad, or terminators in a proteus kill team, or storm shield terminators? Seems i can pick between 1+, 2+, 3+ armor models in 1 unit if I want to.
You can take a Primaris Captain just out of the base marine codex and give him the Deathwatch keyword.
Yes, you are right. I meant that now primaris kill teams are based on different armour archetypes. But veterans work differently.
And yes, I know I can take the Captain from the marine book. But I don't have access to SIA anymore; I cannot take a DW relic or specific warlord trait.
Storm Bolters don't have SIA anymore, which is a shame, but SIA does seem to make boltguns and combi-weapons pretty worthwhile if you ask me. It now doesn't turn off Bolter Discipline, and does stack with Doctrines.
Some pretty significant changes (mostly good) to weapons and costs, too.
Frag cannons down to 10pts, frag mode did get much weaker but more reliable becoming 2d3 S6 AP-1 d1 12" range, solid shell mode now Assault 2 S7 AP-2 D2 24" range.
heavy thunder hammers now 15pts, compared to thunder hammers at 12pts, Sx2 AP-3 D4. Awesome. Also you can now take it on the Sergeant or Blackshield if you so desire for the extra attack.
Infernus heavy bolter predictably gains the new HB and new HF profile, and also, pleasant surprise, only 15pts compared to 10pts for either a HF or HB. You get a neat little discount for your HB half being perma -1 to hit.
Stalker Bolter now heavy 1 S4 AP-2 D2 base, with SIA so it can be damage flat 3, ignore cover, or AP-3, however you wish. Looks to be a 3-point upgrade, dunno how worthwhile that is.
Deathwatch Shotgun is unchanged, now 0 points. I think I'd go for a deathwatch combi-flamer over it for 5pts personally.
Blackshield instead of his old ability now gains A4 if he has 2 melee weapons. Thunder Hammer/chainsword anyone?
Veteran Bikers are pretty chill for 30ppm. 5 chainsword attacks apiece, and amusingly, if you take them as part of a Proteus kill team and Combat Squad them off, they count as INFANTRY for the purposes of cover for the entire game with the new Mixed Units rule.
Nah, its garbage even if you play Vets (and I play primarily Vets). Volume of fire from mixed squads doing mixed squad shenanigans was one of the few things keeping the army going. Now there isnt even that.
Looking at these rules, it's going to be Vet Combi-weapon spam backed up by as many multi-meltas and/or Eradicators as one can squeeze into the list. Maybe a split Infiltrator/Eliminator team for forward deployment and praying it nets enough VPs to squeeze through.
Do we get Bikes, Terminators, and Vanguard Veterans in Veteran Kill Teams for 20 points each? They list Black Shield's at 25, then all other models at 20 each.
Only had a first glance, but the big standout for me up front is the ability to take 5-model units of things that are limited to 3 in the regular codex. Eliminators, eradicators, outriders. Also it looks like both combat squads of the kill team get the CORE keyword.
Too bad about the nerf to hellfire SIA. Vengeance is the new hellfire.
bmsattler wrote: Do we get Bikes, Terminators, and Vanguard Veterans in Veteran Kill Teams for 20 points each? They list Black Shield's at 25, then all other models at 20 each.
What you're pretty clearly supposed to do is reference the "source" unit for each, so a Biker would be 30, a Terminator would be 33, etc. But because of the idiotic way its presented here (I'm not even sure the wording is technically matched play compatible), there's no actual definition of the points costs for the four kill teams, or their wargear.
I don't think I can find a reason to play specifically deathwatch over other space marine chapters from a purely competitive standpoint with these rules.
The loss of their unique rules, from a tournament competitive standpoint, make them a pretty obvious pass in favor of any of the supplement-gorged powerhouses.
But if I had these kinds of rules with any of my other armies, I'd be fething ecstatic.
I can take Eradicators and shield them behind cheaper Heavy Intercessors?
I can take Outriders in 5-man, obsec squads that treat Cover as if they were Infantry?
I can take a deathwatch veteran with special issue ammo boltgun and astartes chainsword for 20pts per model with hidden A4 on the charge Heavy Thunder Hammers in the squad for 40pts a piece? AND I can mix in 1+ armor save W3 models and 2+ armor save models for 43pts and 25pts apiece?
Laughable, compared to anything any other non-marine army can have. I guess I'm also probably less salty because I didn't go through basically any effort to make sure I had a ton of SS/SB vets before.
Flavius Infernus wrote: Only had a first glance, but the big standout for me up front is the ability to take 5-model units of things that are limited to 3 in the regular codex. Eliminators, eradicators, outriders. Also it looks like both combat squads of the kill team get the CORE keyword.
Too bad about the nerf to hellfire SIA. Vengeance is the new hellfire.
Eradicators are 3-6 as standard, not limited to 3.
Sterling191 wrote: Not only do mixed squads do absolutely nothing, Primaris and Storm Bolters cannot make use of SIA. Yes, you read that right.
I may be totally off on any of these, but mixed squads open up things like 5 man Obsec Outriders, 5 man Eliminators and deep striking Obsec Reivers. In general, it means that DW armies basically have ObSec across the board for Infantry units, if they want to build that way.
Obsec deep striking Terminators, too. Not to mention Eradicators with insane durability from ablative wounds. The combinations here are pretty cool imho - an Indomitor KT with Heavy Intercessors and Eradicators looks like an absolute blast, allowing you to throw a couple heavy weapons into a back field combat squad while the rest carry assault weapons.
It's not like they were ever going to roll us into the main codex and keep SIA the way it is. That would have been absolutely ridiculous. We don't need to be Marines with better rules. We needed being Marines with unique rules, and these Kill Teams are certainly unique, adding some fun
Lemondish wrote: We don't need to be Marines with better rules. We needed being Marines with unique rules, and these Kill Teams are certainly unique, adding some fun
Being waddling marines that just happen to have options for ablative wounds doesnt make us unique, or fun. It just means we get to throw meatshields in front of particular high value models.
Lemondish wrote: We don't need to be Marines with better rules. We needed being Marines with unique rules, and these Kill Teams are certainly unique, adding some fun
Being waddling marines that just happen to have options for ablative wounds doesnt make us unique, or fun. It just means we get to throw meatshields in front of particular high value models.
To each their own. I know where your interest lies. I understand that what you're after is impactful, immediately damaging, insanely overpowering rules rather than flavourful, unique, tactical options that make decisions interesting even if they aren't designed to destroy your opponent in an alpha strike.
Having obsec Outriders gives them new value for me because it opens up a few more choices. Being able to craft a pseudo Heavy Tactical squad with a couple heavy weapons is pretty cool. Hell, we get to basically craft the Primaris equivalent of a Tactical squad at every level given the changes available here. That's something no other Marine force has the flexibility to do.
But in the end, I suppose if it doesn't win you the game on T1 it is 'garbage', or 'worthless', right?
Sterling191 wrote: Not only do mixed squads do absolutely nothing, Primaris and Storm Bolters cannot make use of SIA. Yes, you read that right.
I may be totally off on any of these, but mixed squads open up things like 5 man Obsec Outriders, 5 man Eliminators and deep striking Obsec Reivers. In general, it means that DW armies basically have ObSec across the board for Infantry units, if they want to build that way.
Obsec deep striking Terminators, too. Not to mention Eradicators with insane durability from ablative wounds. The combinations here are pretty cool imho - an Indomitor KT with Heavy Intercessors and Eradicators looks like an absolute blast, allowing you to throw a couple heavy weapons into a back field combat squad while the rest carry assault weapons.
It's not like they were ever going to roll us into the main codex and keep SIA the way it is. That would have been absolutely ridiculous. We don't need to be Marines with better rules. We needed being Marines with unique rules, and these Kill Teams are certainly unique, adding some fun
Obsec deep-striking terminators = nope. The terminators in the kill teams don't have the native deepstrike like normal terminators do (it's not included in their rules). And Deathwatch no longer have any stratagems, so no teleportarium. No deepstriking dreads either.
Best you can do is have obsec terminators that you pay to put into reserves. Probably not worth it.
Sterling191 wrote: Not only do mixed squads do absolutely nothing, Primaris and Storm Bolters cannot make use of SIA. Yes, you read that right.
I may be totally off on any of these, but mixed squads open up things like 5 man Obsec Outriders, 5 man Eliminators and deep striking Obsec Reivers. In general, it means that DW armies basically have ObSec across the board for Infantry units, if they want to build that way.
Obsec deep striking Terminators, too. Not to mention Eradicators with insane durability from ablative wounds. The combinations here are pretty cool imho - an Indomitor KT with Heavy Intercessors and Eradicators looks like an absolute blast, allowing you to throw a couple heavy weapons into a back field combat squad while the rest carry assault weapons.
It's not like they were ever going to roll us into the main codex and keep SIA the way it is. That would have been absolutely ridiculous. We don't need to be Marines with better rules. We needed being Marines with unique rules, and these Kill Teams are certainly unique, adding some fun
Obsec deep-striking terminators = nope. The terminators in the kill teams don't have the native deepstrike like normal terminators do (it's not included in their rules). And Deathwatch no longer have any stratagems, so no teleportarium. No deepstriking dreads either.
Best you can do is have obsec terminators that you pay to put into reserves. Probably not worth it.
You should re-read it. They absolutely do have Teleport Strike. It's right on their data shet. Furthermore, directly from the document:
A model in a Kill Team unit retains any abilities that applied to that model on its original datasheet. If a model in a Kill Team unit has an ability on their original datasheet that requires every model in the unit to have that ability in order to be able to use it, then they can only use that ability if every model in their Kill Team unit has that ability.
Example: Elliot creates a Proteus Kill Team unit that contains 1 Watch Sergeant, 4 Deathwatch Veterans and 5 Deathwatch Terminators. Before this unit is set up, Elliot uses the Combat Squads ability to create one unit containing the Watch Sergeant and 4 Deathwatch Veterans, and another containing 5 Deathwatch Terminators. This unit of 5 Deathwatch Terminators can be set up using the Teleport Strike ability because, after using the Combat Squads ability, all of the models in the new unit have the Teleport Strike ability.
So you have a Combat Squad Kill Team unit that consists of 5 Terminators that are Troops (obsec) and can Teleport Strike.
Keep in mind that how you craft Kill Teams is different now. You refer to the source data sheet as there is no 'Kill Team' Veteran data sheet like in the Codex.
Obsec deep-striking terminators = nope. The terminators in the kill teams don't have the native deepstrike like normal terminators do (it's not included in their rules).
It is now. Individual models inherit the basic abilities of their parent datasheet, and if combat squadded in a 5-pack Terminators can utilize Teleport Strike from the Proteus kill team configuration.
Keep in mind that how you craft Kill Teams is different now. You refer to the source data sheet as there is no 'Kill Team' Veteran data sheet like in the Codex.
There absolutely needs to be, because this FAQ is already demonstrating how dumbtastic it is to calculate model points costs in mixed squads when you need to refer to multiple datasheets across multiple books.
Niiru wrote: And Deathwatch no longer have any stratagems, so no teleportarium.
Strategems, WLT, Relics are things I suppose we have to wait for, but I don't think they're a permanent issue like a lot of what is gone here.
Probably true, but BA/SW etc got their strats and traits included in the FAQ. Only Deathwatch had theirs stripped. No clue on the reasoning behind this.
But I stand corrected on the terminators, does seem like Obsec terminators deepstriking is a thing. Shame they don't get SIA.
Edit: Oh, and the Blackstar got nerfed. No more rerolls of 1s.
Niiru wrote: ]Edit: Oh, and the Blackstar got nerfed. No more rerolls of 1s.
Negating cover is a pretty strong replacement at least.
I do find it hilarious that KT Cassius is back. It saves you 8 points over building it yourself and makes you immune to fleeing. I think the only reason they did it was so they didn't have to support Mr. Meltafist anymore.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Bleh. My HTH Vanguard is illegal now.
Keeping Rr1s on the Corvus was sadly unrealistic after things like Razorbacks lost it. It's still a decent unit IMO, and the cost profile is the same. Most importantly, it gets mission tactics baked in now, so its a wash on that front IMO.
Sterling191 wrote: Keeping Rr1s on the Corvus was sadly unrealistic after things like Razorbacks lost it. It's still a decent unit IMO, and the cost profile is the same. Most importantly, it gets mission tactics baked in now, so its a wash on that front IMO.
What makes it get mission tactics? If it didn't before
What makes it get mission tactics? If it didn't before
Wording of the Chapter Tactics ability. It isnt Infantry, Biker or Dreadnought so it didnt qualify before. With the new codex wording, allowing all units to gain the CTs, it does.
Spectrus kill teams make you sink in the base cost for 5 Infiltrators, but both combat squads get omni-scramblers as long as each has an infiltrator. Same for ignore cover if you have an Incursor. So you could make up one unit with two squads, both getting 12” pushback, ignore cover, smokescreen, and 1-2 eliminators each (maybe with las fusils for antitank?)
Or just go cheap by adding 5 reivers to get 2 pushback units for a discount. Not sure how this would effect deployment, though.
In this version, there’s really no point in taking anything without SIA, because you don’t get any advantage over the vanilla marine version of the same thing. Even terminators, bikers, and vanguards.
But the weapon list has things that don’t appear to be assigned to any units, like Deathwatch Heavy Flamer (vets just get regular heavy flamer) and Deathwatch Twin Boltgun with SIA (bikers just get regular twin boltgun). So maybe these are errors? Maybe bikes are supposed to have SIA? Maybe terminators will get the Deathwatch Heavy Flamer option when an errata comes?
Also, am I missing it, or is there no profile for Xenophase blade? It has a point cost, but I can’t find the profile.
Stalker pattern boltgun now has a profile identical to the stalker pattern bolt rifle, with shorter range, unless you use kraken bolts. For 20 ppm (if you trade the power sword for a pistol or chainsword) this now looks to me like a good value for rear objective holders compared to an intercessor with SBR.
Mostly, though, I’m just really looking at scraping together all my stray frag cannon bitz and maxing up on those. It’s finally probably costed a little on the cheap side.
Spectrus kill teams make you sink in the base cost for 5 Infiltrators, but both combat squads get omni-scramblers as long as each has an infiltrator. Same for ignore cover if you have an Incursor. So you could make up one unit with two squads, both getting 12” pushback, ignore cover, smokescreen, and 1-2 eliminators each (maybe with las fusils for antitank?)
Or just go cheap by adding 5 reivers to get 2 pushback units for a discount. Not sure how this would effect deployment, though.
In this version, there’s really no point in taking anything without SIA, because you don’t get any advantage over the vanilla marine version of the same thing. Even terminators, bikers, and vanguards.
But the weapon list has things that don’t appear to be assigned to any units, like Deathwatch Heavy Flamer (vets just get regular heavy flamer) and Deathwatch Twin Boltgun with SIA (bikers just get regular twin boltgun). So maybe these are errors? Maybe bikes are supposed to have SIA? Maybe terminators will get the Deathwatch Heavy Flamer option when an errata comes?
Also, am I missing it, or is there no profile for Xenophase blade? It has a point cost, but I can’t find the profile.
All the 'Deathwatch' special weapons are in the Cassius kill team. I assume because they wanted to say "look, this box set of models is still totally valid".
But no, you can't use them in any other kill teams.
Spectrus kill teams make you sink in the base cost for 5 Infiltrators, but both combat squads get omni-scramblers as long as each has an infiltrator. Same for ignore cover if you have an Incursor. So you could make up one unit with two squads, both getting 12” pushback, ignore cover, smokescreen, and 1-2 eliminators each (maybe with las fusils for antitank?)
Or just go cheap by adding 5 reivers to get 2 pushback units for a discount. Not sure how this would effect deployment, though.
In this version, there’s really no point in taking anything without SIA, because you don’t get any advantage over the vanilla marine version of the same thing. Even terminators, bikers, and vanguards.
But the weapon list has things that don’t appear to be assigned to any units, like Deathwatch Heavy Flamer (vets just get regular heavy flamer) and Deathwatch Twin Boltgun with SIA (bikers just get regular twin boltgun). So maybe these are errors? Maybe bikes are supposed to have SIA? Maybe terminators will get the Deathwatch Heavy Flamer option when an errata comes?
Also, am I missing it, or is there no profile for Xenophase blade? It has a point cost, but I can’t find the profile.
All the 'Deathwatch' special weapons are in the Cassius kill team. I assume because they wanted to say "look, this box set of models is still totally valid".
But no, you can't use them in any other kill teams.
Aha, thanks. 250+ points for 9 guys who slow the game to a crawl and make you check your rules every time they want to shoot or move is not really my idea of a fun unit.
Stalker pattern boltgun now has a profile identical to the stalker pattern bolt rifle, with shorter range, unless you use kraken bolts. For 20 ppm (if you trade the power sword for a pistol or chainsword) this now looks to me like a good value for rear objective holders compared to an intercessor with SBR.
There's a subtle change in the weapon list wording which I hope to hell is an error: you cant take any other gear with a shotgun or an SBR. No shields, no melee weapons.
Mostly, though, I’m just really looking at scraping together all my stray frag cannon bitz and maxing up on those. It’s finally probably costed a little on the cheap side.
Keep in mind that the Frag lost both its auto-hit on the Frag profile, but also the close in super-shot ability on the Shell profile. Its just a worse Infernus now.
GW: You know that deathwatch exclusive model with power fist and melta gun right? You can't have that as selectable wargear anymore.
Also GW: You know that deathwing exclusive model with plasma cannon right? Fill your boots.
I'm hoping the emphasis is on "get you by to the supplement arrives", and that the total gutting of content is a reflection of how new everything will be, but until then choices are:
Proteus: OG vets, but nerfed.
Fortis: outrider combat squad
Indomitor: eradicators with grot shields
Spectrus: we got phobos, but at what cost?
Proteus: OG vets, but nerfed.
Fortis: outrider combat squad
Indomitor: eradicators with grot shields
Spectrus: we got phobos, but at what cost?
This is the succinct and accurate description that my rage filled brain has been trying to reach all day. Take an exalt sir.
Also I cant wait for the hilarity that ensues when somebody shows up at a tournament packing 33 Eradicators because of the stupidity of this particular FAQ.
Also I cant wait for the hilarity that ensues when somebody shows up at a tournament packing 33 Eradicators because of the stupidity of this particular FAQ.
Insularum wrote: GW: You know that deathwatch exclusive model with power fist and melta gun right? You can't have that as selectable wargear anymore.
Also GW: You know that deathwing exclusive model with plasma cannon right? Fill your boots.
I'm hoping the emphasis is on "get you by to the supplement arrives", and that the total gutting of content is a reflection of how new everything will be, but until then choices are:
Proteus: OG vets, but nerfed.
Fortis: outrider combat squad
Indomitor: eradicators with grot shields
Spectrus: we got phobos, but at what cost?
-Trying- to be positive for a moment here... but there must be something decent that could be done... right?
Proteus...I mean we can still field ObSec bikers, and our ObSec terminators have deepstrike now which is a buff from before.
Fortis... Are obsec 5-bike outrider units actually good? They're normally capped at 3.
Indom... Eradicators with grot shields, but the grots are hulking T5 3W dudes with heavy bolters. This sounds good. Isn't it good?
Spectrus... I mean this is the most 'Deathwatch special forces' kind of thing that sounds like it should be the most fitting. Can't it be made to work?
I know its stupid that we are the only army to lose all our strats and relics for no reason, and we also lost SIA, but a lot of these units wouldn't have had any SIA anyway (heavy bolters never had it, neither did any of the special weapons, and nor did hurricane bolters etc so expecting the outrider bikes to have it at all is somewhat farfetched).
But if we assume our strats get returned at some point, then is there nothing the rest of this can be made into?
Stalker pattern boltgun now has a profile identical to the stalker pattern bolt rifle, with shorter range, unless you use kraken bolts. For 20 ppm (if you trade the power sword for a pistol or chainsword) this now looks to me like a good value for rear objective holders compared to an intercessor with SBR.
There's a subtle change in the weapon list wording which I hope to hell is an error: you cant take any other gear with a shotgun or an SBR. No shields, no melee weapons.
Good point, but not a problem for me because I was never a fan of widespread storm shields on vets anyway. Now with 2 wounds each, I think a guy standing in cover in the back can get by without it. Use the points saved off storm shields to buy another guy.
Also, the guy with the SBG actually costs 20 plus the cost of the gun, which is not zero. My mistake.
Fortis... Are obsec 5-bike outrider units actually good? They're normally capped at 3.
They're decent at harassment and disruption, but we already had better options for that from the Proteus kill team configuration. And losing the Intergressor / InterCeptor configuration is far too steep a price to pay.
Indom... Eradicators with grot shields, but the grots are hulking T5 3W dudes with heavy bolters. This sounds good. Isn't it good?
Eradicators are abjectly, fundamentally broken. Our capacity to break them further isnt a good thing, nor is having to rely on them an indication of functional design for the rest of our army.
Spectrus... I mean this is the most 'Deathwatch special forces' kind of thing that sounds like it should be the most fitting. Can't it be made to work?
There is some play there, and honestly its the single bright spot in this clusterfeth of dipshittery from GW.
I know its stupid that we are the only army to lose all our strats and relics for no reason, and we also lost SIA, but a lot of these units wouldn't have had any SIA anyway (heavy bolters never had it, neither did any of the special weapons, and nor did hurricane bolters etc so expecting the outrider bikes to have it at all is somewhat farfetched).
Outriders dont have hurricane bolters. They have twin bolt rifles, the primaris analog to a weapon that had SIA up until about five minutes ago.
But if we assume our strats get returned at some point, then is there nothing the rest of this can be made into?
Assuming any of our strats, WLTs or Relics are returning in anything resembling their current form is a massive leap of faith to be made on behalf of the rules team that deliberately fethed us all over. And im not for a second taking that on faith.
Insularum wrote: GW: You know that deathwatch exclusive model with power fist and melta gun right? You can't have that as selectable wargear anymore.
Also GW: You know that deathwing exclusive model with plasma cannon right? Fill your boots.
I'm hoping the emphasis is on "get you by to the supplement arrives", and that the total gutting of content is a reflection of how new everything will be, but until then choices are:
Proteus: OG vets, but nerfed.
Fortis: outrider combat squad
Indomitor: eradicators with grot shields
Spectrus: we got phobos, but at what cost?
-Trying- to be positive for a moment here... but there must be something decent that could be done... right?
Proteus...I mean we can still field ObSec bikers, and our ObSec terminators have deepstrike now which is a buff from before.
Fortis... Are obsec 5-bike outrider units actually good? They're normally capped at 3.
Indom... Eradicators with grot shields, but the grots are hulking T5 3W dudes with heavy bolters. This sounds good. Isn't it good?
Spectrus... I mean this is the most 'Deathwatch special forces' kind of thing that sounds like it should be the most fitting. Can't it be made to work?
I know its stupid that we are the only army to lose all our strats and relics for no reason, and we also lost SIA, but a lot of these units wouldn't have had any SIA anyway (heavy bolters never had it, neither did any of the special weapons, and nor did hurricane bolters etc so expecting the outrider bikes to have it at all is somewhat farfetched).
But if we assume our strats get returned at some point, then is there nothing the rest of this can be made into?
Disclaimer - I'm not salty about the FAQ, the supplement is when it's real. I'm still hopeful that the DW supplement will be at least to the same standard as the others we have seen (the slimmest of chance of a proper primaris upgrade frame with a unique wargear option or two like every other chapter has had so far).
To me this is just PA all over again, perfectly fine from a "power level on the tabletop" point of view (it's based on marines, who are currently really very good), the problem is that it is devoid of anything more interesting than breaking unit sizes/rule of 3 restrictions - and it's never nice when more is lost than gained.
This was regarding the Spectrus team, and now I'm wondering just what is doable here?
I did think it'd be cool to use Eliminators, but as far as I can see all their special rules require a sergeant (which you don't get)
Mostly its about table control. Forward deploying with two units of five (6 Infiltrators, 4 Eliminators combat squadded down to 3 and 2 models respectively) that not only prevents deep striking within 12, but also is terrifying to any character within LoS is not to be underestimated. The omni-scrambler ability is written such that every model in the unit gets it. Combine with a Lord of Deceit Phobos character and you have nasty options for a turn 1 decapitation strike at effectively zero risk to your units if you lose the roll off (since you can simply redeploy them to safety).
You dont bring Eliminators for added abilities. You bring them to mulch force multipliers through Look Out Sir.
Wait, were people expecting supplement level content in a FAQ?
This is fantastic for seeing how the army is gonnna be built and while we are short quite a few special rules(sadly) it gives me a solid idea as of how I can build my lists. Lots of obsec bikers in my future.
Is it broken powerful at first glance? Nope, but so much more seems use-able that I am very optimistic for the full supplement. Hell I briefly was looking at shotguns!
Leth wrote: Wait, were people expecting supplement level content in a FAQ?
This is fantastic for seeing how the army is gonnna be built and while we are short quite a few special rules(sadly) it gives me a solid idea as of how I can build my lists. Lots of obsec bikers in my future.
Check the Dark Angels and Blood Angels FAQs.
They got partial stratagem and trait support, and entire datasheets for all the units that will be in their supplements.
Which means that SIA, as it is in this FAQ, is likely to be close to the final version that GW intend to release. Which is extremely bad.
Leth wrote: Wait, were people expecting supplement level content in a FAQ?
I was expecting not to have everything that made the army flavorful ripped out and burned in front of my eyes, while simultaneously reverting us to a pre-Codex state.
Put another way, this update wasn't supposed to make the army even worse than it was. It utterly failed at that.
I was expecting not to have everything that made the army flavorful ripped out and burned in front of my eyes, while simultaneously reverting us to a pre-Codex state.
I am certainly sad that our disagreement on SIA was resolved by cleaving the baby in two.
I am certainly sad that our disagreement on SIA was resolved by cleaving the baby in two.
I legitimately do not understand what the rules team is thinking when this is the magnitude of nerf that gets dropped on the objectively worst Marine faction, while simultaneously handing out permanent Transhuman Physiology or invulnerable saves to an army like Dark Angels.
Are you looking at the same SIA? At least now they actually fill useful roles in different situations rather than hellfire all day everyday.
Do I wish there was more? Sure but I am not really worried right now. Only the units that got new data sheets got SIA so to argue that it is the final version is pretty unrealistic. We see this with the bikers, their twin bolt gun got SIA but storm bolters didn’t? What’s the difference? New datasheet.
Leth wrote: Are you looking at the same SIA? At least now they actually fill useful roles in different situations rather than hellfire all day everyday.
Which is entirely meaningless when only a single datasheet (excluding Kill Team Cassius) can actually make use of said SIA.
Do I wish there was more? Sure but I am not really worried right now. Only the units that got new data sheets got SIA so to argue that it is the final version is pretty unrealistic. We see this with the bikers, their twin bolt gun got SIA but storm bolters didn’t? What’s the difference? New datasheet.
No, Bikers did not get SIA. They cannot take the Deathwatch Twin Boltgun (only the White Scar lad from KT:C can), despite getting a brand spanking new datasheet. Likewise, Terminators have a shiny new datasheet. With no SIA.
Leth wrote: Are you looking at the same SIA? At least now they actually fill useful roles in different situations rather than hellfire all day everyday.
Do I wish there was more? Sure but I am not really worried right now. Only the units that got new data sheets got SIA so to argue that it is the final version is pretty unrealistic. We see this with the bikers, their twin bolt gun got SIA but storm bolters didn’t? What’s the difference? New datasheet.
Wrong.
Bikers don't get SIA. Neither do Terminators.
Even the new datasheet bikers and terminators don't get SIA.
The only bike in the entire army that gets SIA, is the special snowflake bike in killteam cassius. They are also the only unit that gets any kind of SIA, outside of basic bolters in the vets squad.
GW purposely released a new bikers datasheet, and a new terminator datasheet, and purposely DID NOT give them any access to SIA.
Well that’s dumb as gak, kinda annoying. Didn’t even give it to bolt pistols.
O well, army construction still looks fun. Will have to see how the points pan out for what I have mind. Definitely a combat squad of Phobos for the double infiltration disruption.
Sad to see BGV not in the list, but I could see that gettin broken pretty quick. Veterans with default bolt gun power sword is interesting.
Leth wrote: Well that’s dumb as gak, kinda annoying. Didn’t even give it to bolt pistols.
O well, army construction still looks fun. Will have to see how the points pan out for what I have mind. Definitely a combat squad of Phobos for the double infiltration disruption.
Sad to see BGV not in the list, but I could see that gettin broken pretty quick. Veterans with default bolt gun power sword is interesting.
i wondered if they would do default power swords because that’s what’s in the kit. But you still have to pay for the power sword, which I guess is fair. They seem better and cheaper than the previous power sword at least.
i wondered if they would do default power swords because that’s what’s in the kit. But you still have to pay for the power sword, which I guess is fair. They seem better and cheaper than the previous power sword at least.
Id personally argue that if youre intent on keeping the power weapon, but arent upgrading to a Hammer or Fist, the Lightning Claw is the way to go. The extra attack and rerolling wounds makes it a lot scarier than its on paper profile would suggest.
We get access to the regular marine captains so whatever wargear they got? We got, just can’t update to chapter master.
I think 25 points for stormshield vets is pretty solid durability wise.
Also like that the squad leader can take the heavy thunder hammer now. Twin lightning claw black shields sound fun as well.
I think overall in regards to unit construction? This is a big win and definitely in the direction I wanted to see the army go. I think in regards to our special rules it sucks and I hope that is rectified when we get our full rules in some way.
Having almost everything being obsec will be helpful for claiming objectives, we can kit out our units for any role.
Chief apoth is mandatory as is tradition for all armies lol.
So far the core of my army is looking like 3x ATV 5x outrider 5x intercessors chief apoth, chief chaplain on bike, twox infiltrator and 1-2 vet squads. Have to see how the points add up. Would be better as a different chapter but I am Deathwatch ride or die so it doesn’t really matter what everyone else gets.
For what it's worth - rough tactics for new SIA, condensed into "easy" to remember target profiles:
Boltgun
Vengeance is the go to for any multi-wound targets
Kraken for T3 with 4+ save or better
Hellfire for T3 with 5+ save or worse
Dragonfire for any 1W targets in cover (if it would be -1 to hit and cover gives some kind of save)
Stalker
Hellfire for anything less than 3W or exactly 4W
Vengeance for exactly 3W or above 4W
Dragonfire for up to 2W targets in cover (if it would be -1 to hit and cover gives some kind of save)
The newly nerfed SIA abilities strike me as interesting in one way - They are all similar in 'strength' to superdoctrines that other chapters have.
Makes me wonder if perhaps this half-assed bandaid is because the plan is for SIA as a weapon ability to disappear for good, and instead SIA will be a doctrine. eg. "Units effected by this doctrine can choose to fire their weapons using one of the following ammunition types - ... etc"
I really wouldnt be surprised if non-veteran SIA becomes their tactical superdoctrine, or makes an appearance as a strat and/or a special-issue-relic (give characters their special ammo).
The old SIA was WAY too good to stick around for every unit. The only reason Deathwatch were subtier is because they were missing a huge chunk of unit options (like anti-tank solutions). You guys are high if you thought we were going to keep super-bolter-infantry AND get all the fancy new toys without any sort of tuning.
Special ammo is just for Veteran's fancy pants boltguns, which sure... that's a fine solution. Personally, the combined squads was more interesting anyway, and I'm sure there's still some cool tricks to pull out of there, even without mixing armour types.
I'm honestly not fussed about SIA at all. With Doctrines being a thing, the weapons are still good. You still take SB for horde clearing, especially in Tactical doctrine. SIA is for kill teams with bolters and is now a choice rather than SB for days. I'm liking this very much, and the lack of strats etc also makes me feel that DW might be first up.
bullyboy wrote: I'm honestly not fussed about SIA at all. With Doctrines being a thing, the weapons are still good. You still take SB for horde clearing, especially in Tactical doctrine. SIA is for kill teams with bolters and is now a choice rather than SB for days. I'm liking this very much, and the lack of strats etc also makes me feel that DW might be first up.
I'm not sure, but aren't storm bolters better vs all targets than bolters with SIA? Double shots is generally better than +1AP, or +1damage. The only one that may require maths is whether double shots is better than +1 to wound, but I think it is.
It would be nice to think that DW got the least FAQ, because they were going to be the first supplement released... but they've already said all the supplements will be out in October (or was it november? I forget), so the most even the last codex will have to wait is an additional 2-3 weeks. That's if they're not all released at the same time.
Seems unlikely this small difference would affect what GW would do with the FAQs. Especially when there are armies that didn't even get an FAQ update at all (Tyranids) and who wont be getting their codex release for 12-24 months.
In any case, I wouldn't have minded losing SIA as much, if they had made Frag Cannons great. Or given that Deathwatch Heavy Flamer to more units, cos that thing looks cool. Shame it's only on a terrible unit that noone will take.
Edit:
On another thing though... Deathwatch Shotgun.
This thing used to be terrible. There was never a reason to take it over a storm bolter with SIA. But now... I wonder if it might have a purpose.
Vs a normal bolter with SIA, the Cryptclearer is basically the same as having +1 to wound vs T4 and T5 targets (very common). And it's 2 shots to 18", so it's better than the bolter if you're putting it on a mobile unit that won't get bolter discipline.
Xenopurge effectively is a bolter at 12", that has BOTH the -1AP the +1 Damage ammunitions turned on.
And you have a flamer. I guess its... ok for overwatch maybe. 8" limit for some reason. Meh.
Same cost as a boltgun. It's worse for units that will benefit from discipline (stationary ones), but an assault unit... maybe?
(I think shotguns are cool, and there's very few armies that really are able to make use of them properly, if I can fit a shotgun squad into DW out of this fiasco I might actually be pleased haha).
Not sure if SB is worth the extra points is the question, especially when this is an edition about clear/take and hold.
Another thought that comes to mind about shotguns is that from turn 3 onwards, you are going to be in assault doctrine and that means for 1/2 the game they are getting-1 AP.
Honestly, with all of the new options and rules available to us, it. Drastically changes how we approach the game.
Personally here is the foundation of the list I am building. That I quite like so far.
Watchmaster, chief apoth, chief chaplain on bike.
5xbikes, 5x stormshield vets
5x intercessors, 5x outriders
2x5 infiltrators
3x atv with MM Drop pod
Around 450 points left to fill/dreadnaughts
Lots of fast obsec to get on objectives while also having a decent number of rapid fire shots. Still lots of fine tuning to go and the math might say that storm bolters are still the way to go. But for now I am cautiously optomistic that we will do okay against most opponents.
This thing used to be terrible. There was never a reason to take it over a storm bolter with SIA. But now... I wonder if it might have a purpose.
There isnt, nor are you going to see Stalker Boltguns either, for one very specific reason: you cannot take any other equipment with them. Losing access to shields or melee weapons is far to steep an opportunity cost to pay for what those weapons do, even with the new SIA.
I disagree completely. SIA is special issue....its not intended for storm bolter, twin boltgun massed fire. Its precise, target specific ammo....it absolutely feels right at this point. It should never have been given out Willy nilly, and with the advent of a whole new codex world of options for us, it belongs in specific weapons in kill teams.
As for the stalker, keep it backfield alongside a couple missile launchers and heavy bolters as a pseudo devastator squad. Thats what I did anyway. I will have to remove the stormshields on a couple dudes, but that may have to happen to a lot of guys now.
bullyboy wrote: I disagree completely. SIA is special issue....its not intended for storm bolter, twin boltgun massed fire. Its precise, target specific ammo....it absolutely feels right at this point. It should never have been given out Willy nilly, and with the advent of a whole new codex world of options for us, it belongs in specific weapons in kill teams.
Its so targeted that one datasheet in the entire army can use it. That's just soooo amazing and fluffy right there. Sod off with that stupidity.
A feature that is ridiculously niche to the point that it cannot be effectively used isnt a feature.
As for the stalker, keep it backfield alongside a couple missile launchers and heavy bolters as a pseudo devastator squad. Thats what I did anyway. I will have to remove the stormshields on a couple dudes, but that may have to happen to a lot of guys now.
Enjoy your lovely pseudo devastator squad getting tagged and unable to do a damn thing about it now that not only can they not get a sturdy defensive profile, they cant even carry a damn chainsword to defend themselves. Furthermore, it deliberately runs against what makes the Shotgun good: the capacity to get up in things faces. S4 ap0 punches dont scare anything short of targets that will be dead by the time the Vets make it into combat T2 or T3.
while I dont like to be negative this feels like they wanted DW dumbed down. are chapter tactics gone? I havent played DW in a long time but I loved that there were strats to change from something like Malleus to Hereticus. It made DW really flexible. I also heard that there was a DW codex due early unless this is it??
Elfric wrote: while I dont like to be negative this feels like they wanted DW dumbed down. are chapter tactics gone? I havent played DW in a long time but I loved that there were strats to change from something like Malleus to Hereticus. It made DW really flexible. I also heard that there was a DW codex due early unless this is it??
Deathwatch currently have no stratagems, relics or WLTs beyond what is available from the primary Astartes codex. The army is in the first batch of announced supplements / codices but we have no information beyond that yet.
bullyboy wrote: I disagree completely. SIA is special issue....its not intended for storm bolter, twin boltgun massed fire. Its precise, target specific ammo....it absolutely feels right at this point. It should never have been given out Willy nilly, and with the advent of a whole new codex world of options for us, it belongs in specific weapons in kill teams.
Its so targeted that one datasheet in the entire army can use it. That's just soooo amazing and fluffy right there. Sod off with that stupidity.
A feature that is ridiculously niche to the point that it cannot be effectively used isnt a feature.
As for the stalker, keep it backfield alongside a couple missile launchers and heavy bolters as a pseudo devastator squad. Thats what I did anyway. I will have to remove the stormshields on a couple dudes, but that may have to happen to a lot of guys now.
Enjoy your lovely pseudo devastator squad getting tagged and unable to do a damn thing about it now that not only can they not get a sturdy defensive profile, they cant even carry a damn chainsword to defend themselves.
No offense, but you're acting like a complete baby. An entire codex of options opened up to us and you expect to get nothing but buffs on top if that. It was inevitable that we would lose some things to compensate for the increased access. You were just being delusional.
No offense, but you're acting like a complete baby. An entire codex of options opened up to us and you expect to get nothing but buffs on top if that. It was inevitable that we would lose some things to compensate for the increased access. You were just being delusional.
Coming from a person who seems to think that losing the functional identity of an army is "opening up an entire codex of options", that's hilarious. But hey, by all means, please continue to sing the praises of a heavy handed nerf to what was already the worst of the marine codexes because you can now run Centurions.
I didnt expect buffs. What I expected was to not have the core identity of the army ripped away in a post it note. And no, the capacity to evade model count limits and put meat shields in front of Eradicators isnt a suitable replacement.
Deathwatch did two things: SIA allowing basic infantry formations to punch well above their weight, and Mixed Squads that allowed for unique abilities that the basic Marine units couldnt. Both have been drastically reduced or outright eliminated.
Well, what you and GW think DW is known for tends to be different. As for identity, I don't knkw how going from 2 kill teams to 4 types constitutes losing their identity. Again, its just your delusion. Sorry you can't spam SB/SS dudes wounding on 2s anymore.
bullyboy wrote: As for identity, I don't knkw how going from 2 kill teams to 4 types constitutes losing their identity.
Congratulations, you've once again made your own point look idiotic. Putting meat shields in front of Eradicators, or allowing a player to put 30 Outriders on the table, isnt faction identity. Kill Teams are mixed units that do more than their constituent components would otherwise allow. What we've got so far in the Fortis, Indomitus and Spectrus formations are not Kill Teams. Spectrus is close, but its not there.
It is a kill team unless you choose not to make it so by combat squadding. Thats a choice, but the tourney players will do it, others may not. They are still 4 separate mixed units each having 4 different datasheets. With the new options, you don't need to spam SIA troops to have a chance, but that entry still remains for that specific kill team.
It may not be what you wanted for Deathwatch, but you don't speak for the masses.
It may not be what you wanted for Deathwatch, but you don't speak for the masses.
Nowhere did I say that I did. Stop putting words in my mouth.
bullyboy wrote: It is a kill team unless you choose not to make it so by combat squadding.
Having an Eradicator stand next to an Agressor doesnt make it a Kill Team.
bullyboy wrote: They are still 4 separate mixed units each having 4 different datasheets.
For the I don't know how manyeth time: The capacity to put meat shields in front of an Eradicator or bypass model number limits does not make a unit a Kill Team. Having functionality above and beyond what the basic constituent components allowed for is what makes a Kill Team a Kill Team. We dont have the latter anymore outside the Proteus and Spectrus formations, and those are both vastly diminished from the 8th edition formations that were flavorful, distinct units that could do all sorts of things based on how you constructed them.
bullyboy wrote: With the new options, you don't need to spam SIA troops to have a chance, but that entry still remains for that specific kill team.
You're equating a player choice with a design lockout. Its not my choice whether or not to go long on SIA, when I quite literally do not have the option to do so.
We have yet to see strats for the DW. We have no idea if contain a vanvet or inceptor will allow fall back and shoot using a strat. Same with bikes fall back and charge. We don't know about teleportation if still a thing.
As it stands, you have 4 kill teams that do different things. I don't see that as a bad thing at all, and it makes sense to put all gravis together. The Fortis might be the weakest one but I'll probably find a way to make one work. I'm more heavily invested in vets anyway. I will absolutely be making a phobos kill team though.
bullyboy wrote: We have yet to see strats for the DW. We have no idea if contain a vanvet or inceptor will allow fall back and shoot using a strat. Same with bikes fall back and charge.
Im not about to speculate on what may or may not happen in the supplement. I deal with the rules that are in front of me. And as they stand, they're pathetic.
bullyboy wrote: We don't know about teleportation if still a thing.
Teleport Homers are gonna be big for Proteus teams. The capacity to redeploy mid-game (or tee up a T2 drop) is very powerful.
As it stands, you have 4 kill teams that do different things.
No, you dont. You have two almost Kill Teams, a delivery mechanism for massed Outriders, and a delivery mechanism for massed Eradicators.
bullyboy wrote: I will absolutely be making a phobos kill team though.
A Spectrus team with Eliminators and a Phobos Lord of Deceit are auto-takes as far as im concerned. Probably a 6/4 split for combat squadding to allow more board control, but I can definitely see the utility in a 5/5 configuration for maximum killiness and character obliteration. Deploy aggressively (ideally as your last drop) for maximum snipage, and pull them back to safety with the redeploy if you lose first turn.
bullyboy wrote: You have 4 kill teams, you just assume there is only 2 wats people will use the others.
For the second time now on this page, stop putting words in my mouth. I have made no statement as to whether or not the Fortis or Indomitor teams will or will not be used (in fact I expect them to see significant play precisely because they cheese model limitations on high value units that are otherwise limited by FO slot or unit model number restrictions).
That does not for a moment make them Kill Teams, nor does it make them fun to play (with or against) or an indicator of good design. It makes them delivery vehicles for Eradicators and Outriders.
You literally said it in the post above mine. Nobody is putting words in your mouth.
Edit: anyway, I'm done with the ongoing whinefest. This is a tactics page and I'll focus on what I can do with the new rules rather than complain about what they can't do.
Assuming for a minute that the new content is mostly finished, and that what's missing may or may not be covered in the supplement - how about this for a spectrus structure:
Combat squad 1:
Infiltrator sergeant
Infiltrator *3
Reiver or Incursor with haywire mine
Combat squad 2:
Infiltrator with comms array
Eliminator *4
Comms with the snipers, a mine or a terror troops candidate in the other combat squad. Would require a pretty heavy investment in phobos as you would need both the captain and lieutenant along for the ride. Could forward deploy the bolter squads with the cap, lt in the back perhaps with a watch master and regular vets.
I will say, with the different teams nicely named, I do have some hope our strats will target them specifically. There's some interesting design space there, but I'm sad we don't have the Mk X + Gravis mix anymore. I quite liked that look.
I actually quite like the new kill teams from an organization stand point, just at the moment there's little advantage to doing so outside exploiting Combat Squads. As frustrated as I am, and as little faith as I have the supplement will be much of an improvement, I'll at least see what's ahead. Not like I can really get out and play anyway.
Insularum wrote: Assuming for a minute that the new content is mostly finished, and that what's missing may or may not be covered in the supplement - how about this for a spectrus structure:
Combat squad 1:
Infiltrator sergeant
Infiltrator *3
Reiver or Incursor with haywire mine
Combat squad 2:
Infiltrator with comms array
Eliminator *4
Comms with the snipers, a mine or a terror troops candidate in the other combat squad. Would require a pretty heavy investment in phobos as you would need both the captain and lieutenant along for the ride. Could forward deploy the bolter squads with the cap, lt in the back perhaps with a watch master and regular vets.
I dont know that the Comms Array is necessary. Assuming* there is some means to manipulate Mission Tactics, you'll have the Lieutenant aura baked in already, and you're almost certainly already bringing a Phobos Captain, which with careful positioning can support both squads from relative safety. Likewise, im not sure the mine is worth the points anymore since its basically just an overwatch bomb in the new codex.
The Reiver is an intriguing disruption play. As-written I believe the new strat for them will affect the entire combat squad due to the way the keywording is handled. Having the ace of turning off ObSec and making what would otherwise be a nulled or enemy controlled objective can swing VP totals massively when deployed carefully.
My other concern is that the Eliminator pod will likely draw a significant amount of fire, and with only one non-expendible Infiltrator the instant you start taking casualties you lose significant efficacy.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
LunarSol wrote: I will say, with the different teams nicely named, I do have some hope our strats will target them specifically. There's some interesting design space there, but I'm sad we don't have the Mk X + Gravis mix anymore. I quite liked that look.
Indeed, losing the Intergressor/Interceptor formations hurts.
I actually quite like the new kill teams from an organization stand point, just at the moment there's little advantage to doing so outside exploiting Combat Squads. As frustrated as I am, and as little faith as I have the supplement will be much of an improvement, I'll at least see what's ahead. Not like I can really get out and play anyway.
Likewise, and its part of what irks me so much. The potential is there, its just incredibly poorly implemented.
This is a hold over PDF document that will be used for about a month so that the army is actually playable until the supplement comes out. This has been made very clear.
Please stop shouting and whinging and perhaps behave like adults and just wait the very short time to see what the actual rules will be. Going by other supplements we will be getting loads of relics, warlord traits, strat and a whole lot else besides.
Do not expect GW to give these out in a free PDF.
This is a hold over PDF document that will be used for about a month so that the army is actually playable until the supplement comes out. This has been made very clear.
"We're gonna put out terrible rules, but dont worry the real rules are gonna be great!" isnt a particularly compelling argument.
Please stop shouting and whinging and perhaps behave like adults and just wait the very short time to see what the actual rules will be.
Oh this old chestnut. The same thing that was said the entirety of the previous edition. Of course it'll magically make things better and true now.
WisdomLS wrote: Going by other supplements we will be getting loads of relics, warlord traits, strat and a whole lot else besides.
Do not expect GW to give these out in a free PDF.
I never expected a supplement in a PDF. I expected my Deathwatch army to be, at the least, no less borked than it was previously. That mark has been entirely missed.
I don't always agree with Sterling191, but when I do, it's mostly because he hits the nail.
Nobod is whining about the SB/SS-Combo since this has nothing to do with Identity. But taking away all the special rules that mixed Units had, does.
As some people already said before: Now the Kill Teams aren't more than a platform to break "AOP"-Style rules via combat squadding... What does that leave us with? Mono-units that could have been deployed without the mixed unit special rule. Very unique! Not.
Although I see the positive side of having many more options, I also tend to think that this "index" is yet another instance of a half-baked attempt.
What I dislike in the underlying philosophy according to which all (or most) new "good" options for DW, its selling points, are all about new marine units: "Eradicators", "Phobos" (new for us), "Outriders".
Basically, unless you stick to veterans and you were already heavily invested in them, you need to buy an entirely new army!
Rather than being an incremental attempt to build on what was the previous "core" of DW, this is a more or less a blatant attempt to shift such a "core" toward new shiny (and very pricy) units.
Aside from the problematic game dynamics highlighted above - i.e. we are good as we circumnavigate others' restrictions to field strong units –, this feels like yet another attempt to "reinvent" what the core of DW should be, for no real reason.
Perhaps this will turn out to be good for DW. Certainly, it makes things incredibly difficult from the standpoint of someone willing to spend time and effort to build a DWWH40K army over time
Insularum wrote: Assuming for a minute that the new content is mostly finished, and that what's missing may or may not be covered in the supplement - how about this for a spectrus structure:
Combat squad 1:
Infiltrator sergeant
Infiltrator *3
Reiver or Incursor with haywire mine
Combat squad 2:
Infiltrator with comms array
Eliminator *4
Comms with the snipers, a mine or a terror troops candidate in the other combat squad. Would require a pretty heavy investment in phobos as you would need both the captain and lieutenant along for the ride. Could forward deploy the bolter squads with the cap, lt in the back perhaps with a watch master and regular vets.
In addition to what's already been said, I want to point out that the incursor might be a better choice than a reiver because of the multi-spectrum array. If you're willing to give up an eliminator for a second incursor, then both combat squads can have one. Eliminators would likely benefit from ignoring to-hit modifiers, and a reiver might mess up the deployment options.
Also I wanted to say thanks for making an actual tactics post on the tactics forum
Sometimes I kind of wish there were a separate forum for complaints about what Deathwatch doesn't have, which isn't really on the topic of tactics.
In addition to what's already been said, I want to point out that the incursor might be a better choice than a reiver because of the multi-spectrum array. If you're willing to give up an eliminator for a second incursor, then both combat squads can have one. Eliminators would likely benefit from ignoring to-hit modifiers, and a reiver might mess up the deployment options.
Unfortunately while the Infiltrator aura may extend to the entire unit, the Incursor ability does not. Eliminators derive no benefit from Multi-Spectrum Arrays.
Similarly, because of specific wording in the keywording sections of the FAQ, Spectrus kill teams can never benefit from the Reiver strat (they lack the Reiver keyword), and likewise Proteus kill teams can never benefit from Teleport Homers (because they can only gain the Terminator keyword if theyre comprised exclusively of Terminators).
In addition to what's already been said, I want to point out that the incursor might be a better choice than a reiver because of the multi-spectrum array. If you're willing to give up an eliminator for a second incursor, then both combat squads can have one. Eliminators would likely benefit from ignoring to-hit modifiers, and a reiver might mess up the deployment options.
Unfortunately while the Infiltrator aura may extend to the entire unit, the Incursor ability does not. Eliminators derive no benefit from Multi-Spectrum Arrays.
Similarly, because of specific wording in the keywording sections of the FAQ, Spectrus kill teams can never benefit from the Reiver strat (they lack the Reiver keyword), and likewise Proteus kill teams can never benefit from Teleport Homers (because they can only gain the Terminator keyword if theyre comprised exclusively of Terminators).
Argh, you're correct. I read that totally to mean the opposite of what it actually says. I stand corrected.
Argh, you're correct. I read that totally to mean the opposite of what it actually says. I stand corrected.
Dont beat yourself up. A lot of what seem like obvious combinations dont work because of the (IMO sloppily and unnecessarily) narrow ways in which the kill team rules are laid out. Another example, Proteus kill teams can never take a Blackshield.
Argh, you're correct. I read that totally to mean the opposite of what it actually says. I stand corrected.
Dont beat yourself up. A lot of what seem like obvious combinations dont work because of the (IMO sloppily and unnecessarily) narrow ways in which the kill team rules are laid out. Another example, Proteus kill teams can never take a Blackshield.
Yeah, I hadn't seen that either about the Blackshields. I was all ready to desprue lightning claw arms for them. I guess I'd better just work on the magnetizing project for the Corvuses and wait for the actual supplement to come out.
Argh, you're correct. I read that totally to mean the opposite of what it actually says. I stand corrected.
Dont beat yourself up. A lot of what seem like obvious combinations dont work because of the (IMO sloppily and unnecessarily) narrow ways in which the kill team rules are laid out. Another example, Proteus kill teams can never take a Blackshield.
Lol seriously? Have they worded it in such a way that it can't be taken?
Oh yeh... it seems that they have seperated the 'Proteus' kill team and the 'Vanguard Veterans' as two different units. I wonder why. They don't even mention the blackshield in the example so it may even be intentional. Though I'm not sure why you'd need the ability to take veterans seperately, when you have/had the ability to take a veterans-only proteus.
Argh, you're correct. I read that totally to mean the opposite of what it actually says. I stand corrected.
Dont beat yourself up. A lot of what seem like obvious combinations dont work because of the (IMO sloppily and unnecessarily) narrow ways in which the kill team rules are laid out. Another example, Proteus kill teams can never take a Blackshield.
Yeah, I hadn't seen that either about the Blackshields. I was all ready to desprue lightning claw arms for them. I guess I'd better just work on the magnetizing project for the Corvuses and wait for the actual supplement to come out.
You can still run blackshields in veteran squads, you just can't have them in a proteus squad. So it only matters if you were planning on running a blackshield with some terminators or something.
But at the moment it may be better to just run a veteran squad, with storm shields and... well I'd say shotguns, but you lose your melee weapon then which is a big annoyance. Though a unit of shotguns and frag cannons feels like something I may have to do, regardless of how bad it is.
Yeah, I hadn't seen that either about the Blackshields. I was all ready to desprue lightning claw arms for them. I guess I'd better just work on the magnetizing project for the Corvuses and wait for the actual supplement to come out.
At 3 points per body, I think there's a real case to be made for LC vets. 21 Attacks at AP2 rerolling failed wounds with SIA for 115 points is...not terrible.
Yeah, I hadn't seen that either about the Blackshields. I was all ready to desprue lightning claw arms for them. I guess I'd better just work on the magnetizing project for the Corvuses and wait for the actual supplement to come out.
At 3 points per body, I think there's a real case to be made for LC vets. 21 Attacks at AP2 rerolling failed wounds with SIA for 115 points is...not terrible.
Problem with lightning claws is it makes the chapter trait redundant. Although you can work around this by giving them a target, and then choosing for the chapter trait to affect a different unit-role. So there's certainly room for tactics in there (which is, at least, somewhat fluffy).
Would you run them as Proteus, in order to combat squad a second unit of something like obsec terminators? Or would you just run them as vets, in order to get an additional blackshield?
One thing I did like is that the vet sgt can get a heavy thunder hammer AND a combat shield. I can see situations where I would work one in, although it would be few and far between.
Leth wrote: One thing I did like is that the vet sgt can get a heavy thunder hammer AND a combat shield. I can see situations where I would work one in, although it would be few and far between.
I dunno, I think giving the sergeant (or black shield) at least a power fist or thunder hammer, if not a heavy thunder hammer, is going to be a decent idea. All my CQC squads will probably do it. And considering the primaris teams all seem to favour being weapon teams, the vets squads are mostly going to end up being CQC.
Well, this release is just a mess, though DW should be used to that by now.
I've been thinking about the SIA changes and I think that I'm okay with the direction they are going. Although I have plenty of storm bolters my self, I wasn't crazy about having there be an obvious best weapon. Whenever I built one, the thought always occurred to me that we could lose SB SIA just as quickly as we got it. While I certainly won't change anything until the supplement drops, I think replacing the storm bolters with all those other options could be interesting especially since Bolter discipline seems to work with SIA again. Having a combi-bolter with a melee weapon or shield does seem more interesting than SB/SS.
I don't have a comment on Primaris and SIA since I don't care about them.
I do find it stupid that they made all of those extra weapon profiles, and only to restrict them to kill team Cassius. I know I'm not the only one who has some terminators with the melta fist.
I am much more concerned about the kill teams. I really hope that we aren't going to have to rely on Stratagems to access the kinds of abilities we got with mixed squads.
Chris521 wrote: Having a combi-bolter with a melee weapon or shield doesn't seem more interesting than SB/SS.
....
I do find it stupid that they made all of those extra weapon profiles, and only to restrict them to kill team Cassius. I know I'm not the only one who has some terminators with the melta fist.
I am much more concerned about the kill teams. I really hope that we aren't going to have to rely on Stratagems to access the kinds of abilities we got with mixed squads.
Do you mean to say "having a combi-bolter with melee or shield -does- seem more interesting"? Cos if not, the context of what you said seemed wrong. (Not trying to be a pedant, I actually agree with what you were saying, but the "doesn't" confused me, as to me the combi-bolter with discipline + SIA + another weapon or shield does seem like a decent enough loadout. I really, really wish that shotguns could also take a melee weapon.
Those weapon profiles in cassius would also fix a bunch of issues if they were universal. That heavy flamer would be BAD ASS if you could take it in terminator units. And obviously the deathwatch bike bolter ... I mean that has to be a mistake, right?
I think stratagems giving the killteams access to some abilities is going to be pretty likely. And it's not even -that- bad if it happens, depending on the cost. If they're cheap 1CP strats, I think it'll be pretty potent. Hell, they may even do the "if your killteam contains X unit, then this stratagem costs 0CP", which is what they did with the apothecary.
Problem with lightning claws is it makes the chapter trait redundant.
Not for a moment. LCs are full wound rerolls. They're a threat to everything on the table.
That's what I mean though. Chapter trait lets you reroll 1's. LCs let you reroll everything. So the LCs make the chapter trait unnecessary (for that unit).
I'm not sure there's anything I'd give in its place though. Shame xenophase blades are limited to sergeants. LCs giving extra attacks make them likely better than most power weapons. Power mauls making you S7 is interesting.
In addition to what's already been said, I want to point out that the incursor might be a better choice than a reiver because of the multi-spectrum array. If you're willing to give up an eliminator for a second incursor, then both combat squads can have one. Eliminators would likely benefit from ignoring to-hit modifiers, and a reiver might mess up the deployment options.
Unfortunately while the Infiltrator aura may extend to the entire unit, the Incursor ability does not. Eliminators derive no benefit from Multi-Spectrum Arrays.
Similarly, because of specific wording in the keywording sections of the FAQ, Spectrus kill teams can never benefit from the Reiver strat (they lack the Reiver keyword), and likewise Proteus kill teams can never benefit from Teleport Homers (because they can only gain the Terminator keyword if theyre comprised exclusively of Terminators).
Argh, you're correct. I read that totally to mean the opposite of what it actually says. I stand corrected.
Can you explain it to me, then? it says "The terror troops ability only applies while there are any Reivers in this unit" which is the same wording as the Infiltrators' Omni-scramblers ability. This makes think that as long as you have one reiver alive in the unit, then the unit gets terror troops.
Is this some weird function of "it lost the keyword by going to the kill team, thus it's not a Reiver despite being called a Reiver by name and cannot, therefore, have the 'Terror troops' ability in the first place?" becuase that would be confusing as hell.
Seems to me like you could do:
1 Watch Master
1 Watch Captain
1 Biker Chap (Master of Sanctity)
I was also looking at the sergeant with heavy thunder hammer and combat shield. Combat shields are better than before, and relatively cheap, even if it is just for the one model.
I was looking at Black Shields with only one claw and a boltgun, but I believe a Black Shield with dual lightning claws is 6 attacks base, 7 with shock attack? I’m predicting that the clarification will come down on the side that you get +1 attack for each lightning claw (based on the FAQ about the raven guard relic claws).
In addition to what's already been said, I want to point out that the incursor might be a better choice than a reiver because of the multi-spectrum array. If you're willing to give up an eliminator for a second incursor, then both combat squads can have one. Eliminators would likely benefit from ignoring to-hit modifiers, and a reiver might mess up the deployment options.
Unfortunately while the Infiltrator aura may extend to the entire unit, the Incursor ability does not. Eliminators derive no benefit from Multi-Spectrum Arrays.
Similarly, because of specific wording in the keywording sections of the FAQ, Spectrus kill teams can never benefit from the Reiver strat (they lack the Reiver keyword), and likewise Proteus kill teams can never benefit from Teleport Homers (because they can only gain the Terminator keyword if theyre comprised exclusively of Terminators).
Argh, you're correct. I read that totally to mean the opposite of what it actually says. I stand corrected.
Can you explain it to me, then? it says "The terror troops ability only applies while there are any Reivers in this unit" which is the same wording as the Infiltrators' Omni-scramblers ability. This makes think that as long as you have one reiver alive in the unit, then the unit gets terror troops.
Is this some weird function of "it lost the keyword by going to the kill team, thus it's not a Reiver despite being called a Reiver by name and cannot, therefore, have the 'Terror troops' ability in the first place?" becuase that would be confusing as hell.
Seems to me like you could do:
1 Watch Master
1 Watch Captain
1 Biker Chap (Master of Sanctity)
I was also looking at the sergeant with heavy thunder hammer and combat shield. Combat shields are better than before, and relatively cheap, even if it is just for the one model.
I was looking at Black Shields with only one claw and a boltgun, but I believe a Black Shield with dual lightning claws is 6 attacks base, 7 with shock attack? I’m predicting that the clarification will come down on the side that you get +1 attack for each lightning claw (based on the FAQ about the raven guard relic claws).
Can you explain it to me, then? it says "The terror troops ability only applies while there are any Reivers in this unit" which is the same wording as the Infiltrators' Omni-scramblers ability. This makes think that as long as you have one reiver alive in the unit, then the unit gets terror troops.
Is this some weird function of "it lost the keyword by going to the kill team, thus it's not a Reiver despite being called a Reiver by name and cannot, therefore, have the 'Terror troops' ability in the first place?" becuase that would be confusing as hell.
Seems to me like you could do:
1 Watch Master
1 Watch Captain
1 Biker Chap (Master of Sanctity)
Spectrus Kill Team
5x infiltrators, 4x eliminators, 1 Reiver
Indomitor kill team
5x Hvy Intercessors, 5x eradicators
Apothecary (da Chief)
and then add whatever flavors of support you feel like depending on power level.
If you favor veterans, then you can mix and match that even further because I haven't wrapped my head around the options yet.
Taktix
It looks like
-omni-scramblers extends to the whole unit, as long as it has one intercessor or the sergeant
-multi-spectrum array only applies to the individual incursor model
It’s not clear from the way it’s written if terror troops extends to the whole unit or not, but the terror troops rule got a rewrite in the new book (it’s -2 Ld now), so maybe with the new wording it’s clear. I don’t have the book yet.
The big problem I see with putting a Reiver into a Spectrus team is that Reivers don’t have Concealed Positions (unless they got it in the new book, which I doubt). So that may mean that other models in the combat squad with the Reiver can’t use Concealed Positions deployment. Also the other spectrus models obviously don’t get grav chutes or bat grapples.
If this turns out to be the case, then the viable way to put Reivers in a Spectrus unit is to have 5 Infiltrators/5 Reivers, have the infiltrators set up with concealed positions and have the Reivers deploy normally, drop, or swing onto the table.
It’s not clear from the way it’s written if terror troops extends to the whole unit or not, but the terror troops rule got a rewrite in the new book (it’s -2 Ld now), so maybe with the new wording it’s clear. I don’t have the book yet.
A Reiver will impart the anti leadership aura. A Reiver will not, however, impart the Reiver keyword, which is what the stratagem that imparts the anti-obsec aura keys off of.
That's what I mean though. Chapter trait lets you reroll 1's. LCs let you reroll everything. So the LCs make the chapter trait unnecessary (for that unit).
Thats not a problem. It means you dont need to expend resources (and can orient Mission Tactics elsewhere in the enemy army) for melee bully units, which are a key role in 9th.
Hmm. I've noticed something that a lot of people seem to have missed, considering how often I've seen the frag cannon being mentioned as being 10 points.
Its actually 15.
The points list for veterans doesn't include the price of the power sword, but it -does- include the 5pt cost of the bolt gun. Which is why everything in that list is 5pts cheaper than it should be. (eg. Plasma gun 5pts instead of 10pts.)
Confusing way to list it. And makes the frag cannon even worse as its 15 not 10. And the infernum heavy bolter is 20pts. The shotgun is 5pts (but isn't listed, I guess because its a 'free' swap).
Elfric wrote: while I dont like to be negative this feels like they wanted DW dumbed down. are chapter tactics gone? I havent played DW in a long time but I loved that there were strats to change from something like Malleus to Hereticus. It made DW really flexible. I also heard that there was a DW codex due early unless this is it??
Yeah, probably in like a month.
Hopefully soon, I'm worried for Sterling's health.
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Niiru wrote: Hmm. I've noticed something that a lot of people seem to have missed, considering how often I've seen the frag cannon being mentioned as being 10 points.
Its actually 15.
The points list for veterans doesn't include the price of the power sword, but it -does- include the 5pt cost of the bolt gun. Which is why everything in that list is 5pts cheaper than it should be. (eg. Plasma gun 5pts instead of 10pts.)
Confusing way to list it. And makes the frag cannon even worse as its 15 not 10. And the infernum heavy bolter is 20pts. The shotgun is 5pts (but isn't listed, I guess because its a 'free' swap).
So, are you saying that the baseline cost of a veteran, which is basically an intercessor with +1LD, is 15pts?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Flavius Infernus wrote: I was also looking at the sergeant with heavy thunder hammer and combat shield. Combat shields are better than before, and relatively cheap, even if it is just for the one model.
I was looking at Black Shields with only one claw and a boltgun, but I believe a Black Shield with dual lightning claws is 6 attacks base, 7 with shock attack? I’m predicting that the clarification will come down on the side that you get +1 attack for each lightning claw (based on the FAQ about the raven guard relic claws).
I don't know why you'd ever set up a Black Shield with a setup other than a chainsword in the offhand, since it essentially gives them +1A with their main weapon and the chainsword. Dual lightning claws might be worth the bonus attack with the lightning claw instead of the bonus attack with the chainsword but you're still paying the full price for a lightning claw to upgrade 1 attack from AP-1 to AP-2 reroll wounds, idk if that's worthwhile.
HTH is still more damage vs heavy targets than regular TH+Chainsword though, so that upgrade is at least still worthwhile.
Hopefully soon, I'm worried for Sterling's health.
I think you'll find im quite fine when people dont spend hours trying to convince me that the gak they just poured on my shoes is actually magical mud.
So, are you saying that the baseline cost of a veteran, which is basically an intercessor with +1LD, is 15pts?
It's not. The weapon costs are variable from unit to unit in 9th. A Vet is 20 points. The boltgun doesnt cost anything extra for them. The cost list for Biker Sergeants is...weird.
I don't know why you'd ever set up a Black Shield with a setup other than a chainsword in the offhand, since it essentially gives them +1A with their main weapon and the chainsword. Dual lightning claws might be worth the bonus attack with the lightning claw instead of the bonus attack with the chainsword but you're still paying the full price for a lightning claw to upgrade 1 attack from AP-1 to AP-2 reroll wounds, idk if that's worthwhile.
HTH is still more damage vs heavy targets than regular TH+Chainsword though, so that upgrade is at least still worthwhile.
Honestly, I wouldnt lean too hard into the blackshield's new rule. The reason the single LC is such a massive upgrade is because it upgrades 4 (or 5 in the case of a Sarge or Blackshield) attacks significantly for a minor cost increase. Yes, you can give him a CS to give his LC another attack (due to the wording on the dual wielding bonus), but an SIA boltgun costs the same and allows him to be a threat at range as well.
Unless I'm reading it wrong, which to be fair might be the case, if Vanguard Veterans are included in a Killteam they a) don't need a jump pack and b) can take a storm shield for 4pts per model. They'd be 2pts cheaper than Veterans in a Proteus Killteam equipped with Storm Shields. They'd miss out on the bolters, but could be a comparatively advantageous option for melee delivery and can still ride in Rhinos.
So, are you saying that the baseline cost of a veteran, which is basically an intercessor with +1LD, is 15pts?
It's not. The weapon costs are variable from unit to unit in 9th. A Vet is 20 points. The boltgun doesnt cost anything extra for them. The cost list for Biker Sergeants is...weird.
I mean... I haven't seen the points costs for the space marine codex, but are you saying that their veteran squads play 5pts for a plasma gun and 5 points for a meltagun etc?
Cos if they do, then fine. But if they don't, then I'm right - deathwatch veterans are effectively 15 points for the body. Because a DW veteran with a plasmagun is 25pts (and plasma costs 10).
But it may well be that space marines infantry do only pay 5pts for these weapons. I haven't seen the page.
Does make the biker page weird, as it has shotguns and bolters as being 5pts each.
Leth wrote: Frag is 10 points because it replaces the power sword and bolter.
Power sword is irrelevant, as you have to pay extra for it anyway (its not included in the points of the squad).
Veteran is 20 points with a bolter. 23 with a power sword. 25 with a 10pt plasmagun. 30 with a 15pt frag cannon.
Unless (as I said before) plasmaguns are actually only 5pts for everyone now. In which case they're 25 for a 5pt plasmagun, and 30 with a 10 pt frag cannon. But that still makes frags worse, as they're double the cost of plasma/melta.
But the biker entry next to it says plasma is 10pt, which is the same as I thought it was in the new codex too.
Frags aren't 10pts. They're 15pts. They are 5 points more expensive than plasmaguns.
Know what's fun (and by fun I mean mildly entertaining cause its absolutely going to get nerfed)? Deathwatch now have some of the cheapest PPW special weapon delivery teams in the entire damn game. We're better than Scions on that front, we're not limited to Command Squads for density, and with the new Astartes Chainswords we're packing a not inconsiderate melee punch as a follow up.
Put another way: a DW vet with a plasma rifle is now cheaper than a Tactical Marine with a plasma rifle despite having a superior melee profile and better leadership.
