5 assault intercessors, 4 aggresors and an inceptor
7 vets, 2 termis and a vanguard vet
5 assault intercessors and an aggressor
6 DS aggressors
5 intercessors and 5 hellblasters
jumpcap with beacon
watchmaster
Forgeworld stuff
Maybe bikers?
... err...
5/3/2 Vet/Bike/VanVet is as good as it gets for mobile shicanery. It's gonna get murdered by Marine-tier firepower though, even at T5 and a pair of Storm Shields.
Unfortunately, right now Deathwatch are just in a comparatively bad spot in the hierarchy. Yeah we can pull of some shenanigans, but without Doctrines, Super-Doctrines, or non-clunky Mission Tactics we're sub-par Marines without any of the benefits.
Hesselhof wrote: What units you would play in DW mono competativ tourney list?
I want to make 2020 for me the DW tourney year =P and i need some advice
Short Edit: I don´t want you guys to write me a list^^ i just want to discuss and to get the DW to the limit and get the most out of these boys^^
I've been thinking lately about moving away from the standard units listed in Grouchoben's post and trying to minmax for competitive play in a different way.
I like the fluff and models of DW vets as much as the next guy, but I just don't think one-wound marine models are competitive in 8th edition regardless of point cost. It might be time to let go of the DW Vet unit until the rules change.
So then the best way to leverage the one thing DW have going for them (special issue ammo) is to minmax with Intercessors:
5 Intercessors with Stalker Bolt Rifles, with or without an Aggressor (to allow them to move & shoot without penalty, assist with close support/overwatch, and to fight in close combat if necessary)
10 Intercessors with Auto Bolt Rifles popping up from the teleportarium to light up something,
10 Intercessors with Bolt Rifles to camp/hold the middle of the table (bolt rifles have a place in a DW army because the -1AP is important to have in conjunction with Hellfire ammo)
Using Intercessors instead of vets means that you're just doubling wounds for a few points more per model, which is more cost-effective than Vet units trying to tank with terminators and storm shields.
Mixing Aggressors/Inceptors into Intercessor units and/or trying to play the majority toughness game is a trap because Aggressors/Inceptors don't have SIA. So every time you replace an intercessor with a model that costs more and doesn't have SIA (and has shorter range), you lose efficiency.
-You don't need T5 units--just use those points to buy more Intercessors
-You don't need to fall back and shoot--buy more intercessor units to shoot for you when you fall back
-You don't need to spend 37 points for the ability to advance and shoot ABRs with 16% more accuracy
-Hellblasters are much less effective and points-efficient than Intercessors with SBRs, which do the same damage, are better at wounding anything but a vehicle, and don't overheat
So if you take two or three battalions of DW Intercessors supported by the usual good characters, you can shoot to death anything in the game that is not a vehicle (and do it arguably more effectively than regular Space Marines).
And so that just leaves you with the eternal problem of how to kill vehicles with your mono-DW army. Personally I've been looking at a trio of Whirlwind Hyperios from Forge World. A Watch Master can offset the penalty to hit non-flying targets, and against flyers you'd always have solid anti-air. Official models are no longer available, but good turret parts are available third-party.
Hesselhof wrote: What units you would play in DW mono competativ tourney list?
I want to make 2020 for me the DW tourney year =P and i need some advice
Short Edit: I don´t want you guys to write me a list^^ i just want to discuss and to get the DW to the limit and get the most out of these boys^^
Librarian, Smash Captains and Watch Master
Double Storm Vets with Terminators and a Vanguard
Assault Intercessors with Aggressor(s) and an Inceptor
Leviathan/Contemptor/Deredeo/Venerable Dreadnoughts
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, worth mentioning. One of DW's few remaining advantages over normal marines is the ability to be played with Assassins/Guard/Knights without losing our effectiveness. I know that kind of defeats the point, but its an advantage that shouldn't be ignored.
Id say one could use plasma scions since theyve also gotten cheaper.
Im a *huge* proponent of Scions in support of Deathwatch, both for their cheap density of fire, but also because they give access to the most point efficient psychic defense in the game (Primaris Psykers and Astropaths).
Hesselhof wrote: Argument yes, but for me i want to use mono DW, maybe assassins and or inquisitors^^
The problem with mono deathwatch that I have is that we have no scouts to sit on objectives. Its either move foward and kill the opponents obj holders or hold yours
Yeah, not getting scouts hurts and makes no sense fluffwise. We really should have access to scouts, even if they would be treated like Wolf Scouts and be Elites instead of Troops.
Hesselhof wrote: Argument yes, but for me i want to use mono DW, maybe assassins and or inquisitors^^
The problem with mono deathwatch that I have is that we have no scouts to sit on objectives. Its either move foward and kill the opponents obj holders or hold yours
You can't just use Intercessors? 6 points more per model, but much more durable. Give them stalker bolt rifles and kill things with Hellfire rounds while you camp objectives.
A lot of marine players in my area are phasing out their scouts in favor of primaris troops. Scouts just give up easy kills.
You can't just use Intercessors? 6 points more per model, but much more durable. Give them stalker bolt rifles and kill things with Hellfire rounds while you camp objectives.
A lot of marine players in my area are phasing out their scouts in favor of primaris troops. Scouts just give up easy kills.
For backfield stuff sure, but forward deployment from Scouts (or Incursors) is a huge asset that DW cant bring to the table right now. In non-ITC games its something that can by itself win you the mission.
Hesselhof wrote: Argument yes, but for me i want to use mono DW, maybe assassins and or inquisitors^^
The problem with mono deathwatch that I have is that we have no scouts to sit on objectives. Its either move foward and kill the opponents obj holders or hold yours
You can also use an Inquisition Detachment (which I would argue kind of goes as mono DW... somewhat) with 3-6 individual 8pt acolytes to camp on objectives.... as characters
Hesselhof wrote: Atm i really like the idea with 3x5 (i guess?) stalker bolt intercessors for backfield screen and objectiv keeper
To me, this unit seems like the killer app of Deathwatch.
The SBR’s built-in -2AP offsets the usual problem that Hellfire rounds have against armor/cover, negating a disadvantage that DW have.
Wounding on a 2+ offsets the Str4 disadvantage that regular Space Marines have with SBRs. This is the one thing that DW Intercessors do better than regular marines.
Wouldnt normal marines with stalker pattern boltguns be better? For cheaper you get 10 shots (out of 5man squad) and with kraken you get -2ap on the weapon
only minus is they are less tanky
ImPhaeronWeasel wrote: Wouldnt normal marines with stalker pattern boltguns be better? For cheaper you get 10 shots (out of 5man squad) and with kraken you get -2ap on the weapon
only minus is they are less tanky
SBGs are Heavy 2 30" S4 AP1 D1.
SBRs are Heavy 1 36" S4 AP2 D2.
Hesselhof wrote: So you think 3x5 are enough? or would you build bigger teams? like 3x7 or maybe 3x10? thats 170 points dunno it its worth
I feel like 5 per unit is the magic number for SBR Intercessors. (10 per unit for Bolt Rifle or ABR.) 5 per unit limits casualties, limits the number of guys who can be tagged at one time and prevented from shooting. You're not typically needing to use strategems on them, so there's no benefit to taking a big unit versus taking two minsize units. Personally, I'm putting together 4X5 for a dual battalion.
Consider putting an Aggressor in a few of those teams if you're planning to run that many. It may seem like a schizophrenic configuration, but for midfield objectives I've found them to be solid gold. Mobility, long range punch, and a credible melee threat for a reasonable point investment.
Sterling191 wrote: Consider putting an Aggressor in a few of those teams if you're planning to run that many. It may seem like a schizophrenic configuration, but for midfield objectives I've found them to be solid gold. Mobility, long range punch, and a credible melee threat for a reasonable point investment.
Definitely. Although I think that adding Aggressors/Inceptors/Hellblasters to Intercessor units in general is a points sink, I can absolutely see the value of adding a single aggressor to some of the 5-man SBR units.
-Because the unit is only 5 anyway, the Aggressor isn't displacing an Intercessor.
-After seeing Iron Hands SBR units in action with the move-and-shoot without penalty, I'm sold on this ability. It seems like only a 16% increase in hits for a 44% increase in cost, but with high-value single-shot firepower, the extra accuracy is more important.
-Non-shooty opponents are going to be wanting to close in and charge those units. The shorter range fire support and especially the overwatch ability of the Aggressor will come into play then.
-Saves you having to buy a power fist for your Intercessor sergeant.
I haven't playtested it yet, so I could be totally wrong. But if you're taking Aggressors anyway, it's not any more expensive to spread them into intercessor units.
Sterling191 wrote: Consider putting an Aggressor in a few of those teams if you're planning to run that many. It may seem like a schizophrenic configuration, but for midfield objectives I've found them to be solid gold. Mobility, long range punch, and a credible melee threat for a reasonable point investment.
Definitely. Although I think that adding Aggressors/Inceptors/Hellblasters to Intercessor units in general is a points sink, I can absolutely see the value of adding a single aggressor to some of the 5-man SBR units.
-Because the unit is only 5 anyway, the Aggressor isn't displacing an Intercessor.
-After seeing Iron Hands SBR units in action with the move-and-shoot without penalty, I'm sold on this ability. It seems like only a 16% increase in hits for a 44% increase in cost, but with high-value single-shot firepower, the extra accuracy is more important.
-Non-shooty opponents are going to be wanting to close in and charge those units. The shorter range fire support and especially the overwatch ability of the Aggressor will come into play then.
-Saves you having to buy a power fist for your Intercessor sergeant.
I haven't playtested it yet, so I could be totally wrong. But if you're taking Aggressors anyway, it's not any more expensive to spread them into intercessor units.
You're not really doing the maths correctly here. You're assuming that because it jumps 16% for a successful roll of the dice that it is equal to a 16% increase in hits. I am sorry to tell you that this is wrong and isn't really how it works. I am, however, happy to tell you that it's actually better than you think.
To explain, let's take a 5 man SBR unit on the move. It'll hit with half its shots, on average, without any type of supporting cast providing rerolls or bonuses to hit. That means you're looking at an average of 2.5 hits (5 * 0.5 = 2.5).
Now, take that same unit on the move but add an Aggressor (or even consider the same unit as above that stays put) firing those same 5 shots. You're now looking at approximately 3.33 hits on average (5 * 0.66 = 3.33). That's an increase of 0.83 more hits, or 33% compared to the 2.5 hits generated by the unit above. You'll therefore get 33% more hits out of this unit's Stalker rifles with an Aggressor attached than you would without one.
Then consider, as you have, that you're also adding the Aggressor's not inconsiderable firepower and melee capability and it seems like a great addition. I've always enjoyed this 6 man unit with the auto-bolt rifle option for an in your face mobile threat that can punch hard on the charge. The only thing I feel it's missing is a Primaris option for a black shield. That wish is based solely on the amount of times I would have liked to increase the threat profile of the unit with the threat of a HI.
I would disagree with your point that the addition of Aggressors, Inceptors, and Hellblasters to Intercessor squads is a points sink. Your last point is a very good reason why it isn't one - if those are units you decide you want anyway, especially if they fill needs you can't achieve with Intercessors alone, then adding them as troops to Intercessor squads is fundamentally more effective than adding them as separate units. Benefits include better CP generation, no issues with the rule of 3, ablative wounds to protect those slightly more dangerous options, the ability to spread these threats around, and the synergy you gain from overlapping bonuses for the unit.
As an aside, I expect to see the bolt weapons of Aggressors and Inceptors eventually receive SIA once whatever PA for DW comes knocking. In a world where tactical doctrine bonuses to AP exists for these weapons, it would not be disruptive to expect SIA to extend to them as well.
Sterling191 wrote: Consider putting an Aggressor in a few of those teams if you're planning to run that many. It may seem like a schizophrenic configuration, but for midfield objectives I've found them to be solid gold. Mobility, long range punch, and a credible melee threat for a reasonable point investment.
Definitely. Although I think that adding Aggressors/Inceptors/Hellblasters to Intercessor units in general is a points sink, I can absolutely see the value of adding a single aggressor to some of the 5-man SBR units.
-Because the unit is only 5 anyway, the Aggressor isn't displacing an Intercessor.
-After seeing Iron Hands SBR units in action with the move-and-shoot without penalty, I'm sold on this ability. It seems like only a 16% increase in hits for a 44% increase in cost, but with high-value single-shot firepower, the extra accuracy is more important.
-Non-shooty opponents are going to be wanting to close in and charge those units. The shorter range fire support and especially the overwatch ability of the Aggressor will come into play then.
-Saves you having to buy a power fist for your Intercessor sergeant.
I haven't playtested it yet, so I could be totally wrong. But if you're taking Aggressors anyway, it's not any more expensive to spread them into intercessor units.
You're not really doing the maths correctly here. You're assuming that because it jumps 16% for a successful roll of the dice that it is equal to a 16% increase in hits. I am sorry to tell you that this is wrong and isn't really how it works. I am, however, happy to tell you that it's actually better than you think.
To explain, let's take a 5 man SBR unit on the move. It'll hit with half its shots, on average, without any type of supporting cast providing rerolls or bonuses to hit. That means you're looking at an average of 2.5 hits (5 * 0.5 = 2.5).
Now, take that same unit on the move but add an Aggressor (or even consider the same unit as above that stays put) firing those same 5 shots. You're now looking at approximately 3.33 hits on average (5 * 0.66 = 3.33). That's an increase of 0.83 more hits, or 33% compared to the 2.5 hits generated by the unit above. You'll therefore get 33% more hits out of this unit's Stalker rifles with an Aggressor attached than you would without one.
Then consider, as you have, that you're also adding the Aggressor's not inconsiderable firepower and melee capability and it seems like a great addition. I've always enjoyed this 6 man unit with the auto-bolt rifle option for an in your face mobile threat that can punch hard on the charge. The only thing I feel it's missing is a Primaris option for a black shield. That wish is based solely on the amount of times I would have liked to increase the threat profile of the unit with the threat of a HI.
I would disagree with your point that the addition of Aggressors, Inceptors, and Hellblasters to Intercessor squads is a points sink. Your last point is a very good reason why it isn't one - if those are units you decide you want anyway, especially if they fill needs you can't achieve with Intercessors alone, then adding them as troops to Intercessor squads is fundamentally more effective than adding them as separate units. Benefits include better CP generation, no issues with the rule of 3, ablative wounds to protect those slightly more dangerous options, the ability to spread these threats around, and the synergy you gain from overlapping bonuses for the unit.
As an aside, I expect to see the bolt weapons of Aggressors and Inceptors eventually receive SIA once whatever PA for DW comes knocking. In a world where tactical doctrine bonuses to AP exists for these weapons, it would not be disruptive to expect SIA to extend to them as well.
Disco Lord
3 Sorc
3 obis
3 Deredeos
2 Decimater
60 Cultists
Alpha and Iron Warriors /Soulforged pack
We played ITC mission 6
Till round 5 i was in lead with points, then he tabled me and made points and won, dang ^^
I liked my list, it was tough had good punch, but i made a few gameplay fails, forgot some gems etc. gues i will use this list for the tourney in march.
Hey guys, can i equip a watch captain with stormbolter and master crafted boltgun? And: if i do can i use bane bolts of erexia for both weapons each shooting phase?
If we use SIA on Terminators or Bikers and they are not within 12“ they won‘t get 4 shots because SIA is not working with Bolter Discipline am I right?
That is how SIA and Bolter Discipline interact, yes. Although using Kraken rounds means you could get extra shots at 15 instead of 12 due to the extra range.
Played last saturday against the possessed bomb, worked quite well just a 15-17 lose (ITC) we stopped after 3 hours in turn 3, he needed the most time, if we had used a chess clock, he would have run out of time
I want to try out a list with 2x Repulsor Executioner with a Watch Master with Tome relic as support and 2x Aggressor/Autobolter mixed KillTeams squads.
Has anyone got experience with something similiar?
I tried one squad of mixed Agg/Autobolters and it was amazing...the sheer amount of fire power they have plus the bulkyness is great
I just picked up my second executioner in a used buy this last weekend. I am looking forward to trying a similar strategy.
I have absolutely fallen in love with primaris kill teams. Auto bolters and aggressors,MSU stalker with one aggressor, rapid fire with plasma support. All of them are fun as heck. Auto bolters in particular have been excellent vessels for SIA.
I am very happy veterans vs primaris is a real choice now. I love both.
I think you (or battlescribe?) got the points cost of Hector Rex wrong - according to CA 2019 he's 100 points excluding wargear, so you have to add his Storm Shield (Arias comes for free..), which brings him up to 110 total. In general, while his storm shield and denying are absolutely great, Coteaz might be a better buy...
The 40K community site has a new preview up for Deathwatch. There is virtually nothing new there, BUT that's only new to Deathwatch. They are getting Combat Doctrines, Space Marine Litanies, and a lot of the generic Space Marine Strategems that make them so decent. Intercessor Sgt's get more weapon options including Thunder Hammers etc. Just Combat Doctrines on their own seems to be a huge deal, since they can stack with special ammo.
Just saw the news as well, came to see if there was any discussion yet.
Sad that we won't get to be included in PA but at least we get something.
Interested to see if there will be any point adjustments as the auto bolt rifle is dirt cheap and with the stratagem would make it a really strong choice. Also getting a +1 to hit Litany is going to a great buff.
bmsattler wrote: The 40K community site has a new preview up for Deathwatch. There is virtually nothing new there, BUT that's only new to Deathwatch. They are getting Combat Doctrines, Space Marine Litanies, and a lot of the generic Space Marine Strategems that make them so decent. Intercessor Sgt's get more weapon options including Thunder Hammers etc. Just Combat Doctrines on their own seems to be a huge deal, since they can stack with special ammo.
The AP cap on kraken and vengeance effectively makes them not stack. That leaves hellfire with a solid buff... At the cost of making ammo choice completely irrelevant.
So much potential design space and they do this half assed hack job of a release...
bmsattler wrote: The 40K community site has a new preview up for Deathwatch. There is virtually nothing new there, BUT that's only new to Deathwatch. They are getting Combat Doctrines, Space Marine Litanies, and a lot of the generic Space Marine Strategems that make them so decent. Intercessor Sgt's get more weapon options including Thunder Hammers etc. Just Combat Doctrines on their own seems to be a huge deal, since they can stack with special ammo.
Doctrines, as currently worded, cannot stack with SIA (there is an explicit prohibition on combining its AP with other sources). Neither does Bolter Discipline.
Given that they're previewed un-fixed stratagems copied from the pre-nerf Marine codex, my confidence is zero that those two fundamental showstoppers will be fixed, let alone that anything resembling a functional competitive PA-grade army will be possible. Simply put folks, barring an absolute miracle of rules-writing hiding in the page and a half they didnt preview, Deathwatch are unambiguously fethed. Again.
I would be deeply disappointed with that preview if I played deathwatch. No new content/rules at all? Talk about a letdown.
As a quins player, I'm afraid that means quins will be getting close to nothing too (though they can't give us absolutely nothing new like you're getting because there's nobody to C&P rules from).
Alright, it's a complete gak show and no mistake. What makes it a bit worse is the way the article is written - long on rhetoric and adjectives, with actual misleading claims as to what the update is doing for the army. But let's focus on what it does do for DW.
- I think, if they weren't already a very strong choice, assault bolters are now a top pick. A squad of ten using boltfire, plus to wound and tactical doctrine can drop damage on hard-to-hit units such as alaitoc flyers and reflexed harly bikes... Stacking strat buffs on an autohitting high-shots unit could be clutch, and boltstorm - a strat that hasn't really caught on - may find a home when stacked with DW's hellfire and +wound style of play.
- (However this is indicative of the problem that DW will now face: new strats will be adding to the strain of generating enough cp to actually be able to function in the way the army obviously intends to.)
- Stalker squads remain the best synergisers with hellfire and T1 will shred opposing marines like nobody's business. A squad of 10 using hellfire & target sighted can now one-bang characters with ease, if you have the 3 cp to burn.
- The limited relevance of doctrines due to hard caps on SIA rend means we're still probably the best soup marines. I know it's not exaclty a plus, but it will be a factor in list design no doubt. Using guard to unlock the holy triple-battalion alongside some sorely needed dedicated AT, for example, will be very tempting.
- Catechism of Fire will allows us, unless specifically otherwise mentioned, to stack to +2 to wound on any single unit in our army, which is REALLY big, and probably the most powerful new aspect of the army. Seeing as we're an army that lives or dies by the buff, I think Master of Sanctity on a jumpchap will become absolutely autoinclude for us, for that crucial +2 to wound.
- Big guns will allow a single Corvus not to be a pile of gak, at the cost of 1cp a turn. It's not ideal but it makes them a little more viable.
- Our Aggressors were already some of the best in the game, as they could DS (not flank) on t2 and pop +1 to wound, but now they can add rend and push up to +2. I think everyone will be looking at at least one max squad of them. With 2cp, a watch master and chaplain can buff them up to doing 14.8 damage to a 4++ knight in shooting, or wiping a 10-man squad of intercessors: that's serious firepower. They were also missing transhuman, well no more: now they can tank as well as dps.
- Duty Eternal will see some play as we're one of the only chapters that kind of has to use dreads due to our lack of dedicated AT. DS SCA Levs will get a slight buff I guess, if that's your jam.
- I can't see much for vets really. Transhuman is big but in a vet army it can only buff one team: if you drop it on one your positioning is going to have to be great to stop your opponent switching fire to the next non-buffed killteam instead. Will be clutch in turn 3+ though.
bmsattler wrote: The 40K community site has a new preview up for Deathwatch. There is virtually nothing new there, BUT that's only new to Deathwatch. They are getting Combat Doctrines, Space Marine Litanies, and a lot of the generic Space Marine Strategems that make them so decent. Intercessor Sgt's get more weapon options including Thunder Hammers etc. Just Combat Doctrines on their own seems to be a huge deal, since they can stack with special ammo.
Doctrines, as currently worded, cannot stack with SIA (there is an explicit prohibition on combining its AP with other sources). Neither does Bolter Discipline.
Given that they're previewed un-fixed stratagems copied from the pre-nerf Marine codex, my confidence is zero that those two fundamental showstoppers will be fixed, let alone that anything resembling a functional competitive PA-grade army will be possible. Simply put folks, barring an absolute miracle of rules-writing hiding in the page and a half they didnt preview, Deathwatch are unambiguously fethed. Again.
Oh yes, poor DW. Some factions dont even have similar rules like doctrines or bolter disciplines to begin with. SIA is free for DW, 0 pts. With hellfire rounds a five model DW veteran unit can wound ANY non vehicle, non titanic unit on 2+, regardless of toughness, for 70 pts. That x2.5times better than any other non DWSM infantry unit with boltguns would do against T5, wounding on 5s.
grouchoben wrote: - Catechism of Fire will allows us, unless specifically otherwise mentioned, to stack to +2 to wound on any single unit in our army, which is REALLY big, and probably the most powerful new aspect of the army. Seeing as we're an army that lives or dies by the buff, I think Master of Sanctity on a jumpchap will become absolutely autoinclude for us, for that crucial +2 to wound.
- Our Aggressors were already some of the best in the game, as they could DS (not flank) on t2 and pop +1 to wound, but now they can add rend and push up to +2. I think everyone will be looking at at least one max squad of them. With 2cp, a watch master and chaplain can buff them up to doing 14.8 damage to a 4++ knight in shooting, or wiping a 10-man squad of intercessors: that's serious firepower. They were also missing transhuman, well no more: now they can tank as well as dps.
Some very good points, and an enjoyable analysis!
I'm not certain that Deathwatch get access to the Master of Sanctity options, though you could argue that many of them come from Codex-compliant marines.
Also, the Chaplain's +1 to wound litany has to be applied at the beginning of a battle round to a unit that's on the board with the Chaplain. So it will be useful for Deathwatch, but not for units that are deep-striking. However, the +2 to charge Canticle of Hate makes charges much more reliable from Deepstrike. You just have to pre-deploy the Chaplain to support the squads coming in, or use the Beacon Angelis to zip him into position. Throwing in a Thunder hammer or two could go a long way toward adding some anti-tank power to the veteran squads.
Veteran squads have been one of the better ways to threaten Riptides. Hellfire rounds and a Watch Master can put an average of 30 wounds on a Riptide, which then had to decide whether to transfer those to Drones or tank with the 2+ save. Tanking on the save puts 5 wounds on average, so three squads will either pick up the Riptide or put some wounds on it and strip most of the Drones out of a Tau army. Adding -1 AP to Hellfire doubles the wounds you'll leave on a Riptide. Apologies if I'm misunderstanding SIA not stacking with Doctrines, I believe this is just the Kraken and Vengeance rounds?
Doctrines also means that Deathwatch can soup easier with other Marines.
Do Deathwatch count as Ordo Xenos units for Inquisitor purposes?
souping with another marine army seems a no-brainer, if that other force doesn't really rely on it's super doctrine. You'll get access to cheap battalion scouts for screening, Eliminators, TF cannons etc. That's probably the biggest win from the addition of doctrines.
BrianDavion wrote: the real sad thing is this means DW won't likely get access to the Phobos troops :(
That is the saddest part. Plus, since there’s only 14 new stratagems in the write up, is extremely unlikely they’ll get any new ones beyond the standard SM suite that all updated chapters get.
That said, Doctrines are amazing, and updating Mission Tactics to apply to all units will be a nice boon to DW vehicles. I do hope they thought to update the wording of the Combat Doctrines ability to actually stack with special issue ammunition.
That said, Doctrines are amazing, and updating Mission Tactics to apply to all units will be a nice boon to DW vehicles. I do hope they thought to update the wording of the Combat Doctrines ability to actually stack with special issue ammunition.
That said, Doctrines are amazing, and updating Mission Tactics to apply to all units will be a nice boon to DW vehicles. I do hope they thought to update the wording of the Combat Doctrines ability to actually stack with special issue ammunition.
All of this is exceedingly unlikely to happen.
Yeah someone here doesn't understand how likely it is GW won't even do the bare minimum.
That said, Doctrines are amazing, and updating Mission Tactics to apply to all units will be a nice boon to DW vehicles. I do hope they thought to update the wording of the Combat Doctrines ability to actually stack with special issue ammunition.
All of this is exceedingly unlikely to happen.
All of the updates have reworded chapter tactics to apply to everything, so I’d be surprised if mission tactics isn’t as well. But yeah, I’d be surprised if they thought to make combat doctrines explicitly stack with special ammo.
The DW Chapter Trait is so far behind the power curve now that even if it was extended to vehicles it would rank down there joint-last with Salamanders.
Automatically Appended Next Post: It really is hellfire rounds and stormshield vets as the only two things really holding the faction together now. I get the feeling that just spamming vet squads, watch masters and chaplains is the only viable strategy left now.
All of the updates have reworded chapter tactics to apply to everything, so I’d be surprised if mission tactics isn’t as well. But yeah, I’d be surprised if they thought to make combat doctrines explicitly stack with special ammo.
You're putting a lot of stock in being treated like a Codex Marine when GW has been perfectly clear that Deathwatch wont get any kind of comparable attention.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
grouchoben wrote: The DW Chapter Trait is so far behind the power curve now that even if it was extended to vehicles it would rank down there joint-last with Salamanders.
Indeed. The fact that our CT can be replaced by a 60 point model and be more efficacious is just icing on the gak sandwich.
So the rules are out. The only thing we get are basic doctrines (that attempt to stack with SIA, we'll see how the minutiae works out) and a handful of copy paste strats.
Bolter discipline is still fethed. Watch Master is now officially the worst Chapter Master in the Astartes. The Corvus is staying on your shelf for another edition.
The fact that even GW wasn't shameless enough to try to charge money (beyond the normal WD price) for this junk is a pretty good clue of how much they care about the faction.
The addition of doctrines means you’ll be much easier to ally with now that you don’t cause the loss of other marines to lose their doctrines (besides their super doctrine)
storm bolter vets in a pod with storm shields will clear chaff very easily and bikers will also benefit quite a but. All in all though DW have gotten a lot better with those marine strats.
I wouldn’t be too sad though, I think what this ultimately means with lack of vanguard units etc is that you will be getting new kits and a new codex once 9 th drops. Before the other chapters who have basically already gotten the codex treatment.
I wouldn’t be too sad though, I think what this ultimately means with lack of vanguard units etc is that you will be getting new kits and a new codex once 9 th drops. Before the other chapters who have basically already gotten the codex treatment.
"Wait till next edition for kits that have already been out for thirteen months so you can maybe be where other Codices are at right now".
Really, DW got waaaayyy bettor with these updates. Ummmmm.....I'll take 6 aggressors, deep strike them, and steady advance them. Litny of Focus on hellblasters and have them next to a captain. If you want to get a little crazy, jump a captain up the board turn 1 with the beacon. Put litny of focus on the aggressors and then steady advance. A crap ton of shots basically all hitting. Then you could go even more over board and spend a couple more command points and add 1 to wound....and you still can reroll ones. Combos can get a little nuts. This took all of 30 sec of thought. I don't see why people are so ....Deathwatch sucks, marines are still supreme.
Steady advance has zero effect on Aggressors. Go read the strat again.
Litanies are the standout in the update, but seeing how we don't have access to the master of litany strat we are relying on it going off on a 3+, that's not nearly reliable enough to base a build around. Even so, I expect to see a chap in every DW list from now on, regardless of us having the absolute worst chaplains in the game
You think rerolling 1s is nuts? On the subject of rerolls, did you notice how the Watchmaster is the only chaptermaster tha doesn't get to reroll all hits?
People are down on the DW 'update' because a) it's the most halfhearted and lackluster rules release to date in 8th's history, b) only the executioner is DW-unlocked out of all the marine units released in the past two years, c) there was not a single rule, relic, strat or trait unique to DW in their PS update, unlike every other faction with the exception of Ynnari, and d) they understand the faction and the rules. People coming along saying 'lol what's the tears about?' are missing one or both of those things.
specia_k_squared wrote: Really, DW got waaaayyy bettor with these updates. Ummmmm.....I'll take 6 aggressors, deep strike them, and steady advance them. Litny of Focus on hellblasters and have them next to a captain. If you want to get a little crazy, jump a captain up the board turn 1 with the beacon. Put litny of focus on the aggressors and then steady advance. A crap ton of shots basically all hitting. Then you could go even more over board and spend a couple more command points and add 1 to wound....and you still can reroll ones. Combos can get a little nuts. This took all of 30 sec of thought. I don't see why people are so ....Deathwatch sucks, marines are still supreme.
Aggressors dont benefit from Bolter Discipline, and by pulling them away from their buffing Chaplain you've negated their +1 to hit.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
grouchoben wrote: c) there was not a single rule, relic, strat or trait unique to DW in their PS update
Want to re-emphasize this. What Deathwatch got hit with wasnt a PA update. It was their overdue, and still somehow inferior, Marine Summer Update.
I could be wrong, but aggressors get the bolter discipline ability and as stated in the angels of death rule. The stratagem steady advance works on them. Yes, you don't get SIA, but you still count as not moving, hence double the shots. Other argument of litinies, am I wrong about that the unit doesn't lose its effect outside of 6". You have to be within 6" for the litny], but then you can do whatever afterwards. Please forgive my ignorance on this, I only have played as dw and not marines so this is new to me all these toys.
You're fine brother, the rules are a right mess at the moment. Bolter Discipline lets you fire double the number of shots on a rapid fire weapon, if the unit meets certain criteria. One of those criteria is not moving. The strat lets you count as not moving, hence providing BD. But of course Aggressors are armed with assault weapons, not rapid fire, and so the abiity, and strat, have no effect on it at all.
You think rerolling 1s is nuts? On the subject of rerolls, did you notice how the Watchmaster is the only chaptermaster tha doesn't get to reroll all hits?.
That's not true, neither Dante or Azrael had their rules changed in this respect.
Just had a read through the WD rules, truly the laziest of cut and paste jobs :-(
That said the faction does take a massive step up with just these basic marine bonuses, Doctrines are huge as are Litanies and some of the strats (looking at you transhuman). Add to that bolter disc seems to work with SIA now and we can certainly compete, perhaps not with the very best marine lists but alot better than before.
It's really just disappointing that GW couldn't put even a single unique DW thing in these rules, no super doc, no chapter Litany, not even a couple of new strats to fill in the empty space on the second strat page, very poor :-/
- Bolter discipline does not work with SIA, nothing's changed there - the faq targets the SIA rule and excludes it.
- Litanies are great when they go off, but 3+ with no master of litanies strat is whiffy.
SIA have hard caps on their rend so bolt rifles, stalkers, stalker bolt rifles etc won't benefit from them. Hellfire stormbolters DSing on turn 2 are the big winners for sure.
Transhuman is great for us in late game. First two turns if you pop it then they switch fire to one of your other expensive killteams, as your army is basically marine spam.
SIA have hard caps on their rend so bolt rifles, stalkers, stalker bolt rifles etc won't benefit from them. Hellfire stormbolters DSing on turn 2 are the big winners for sure.
I genuinely hate that we're about to become a hellfire spam army. SIA is supposed to be "pick the right bullet for the job". Now it's going to be "use that one bullet, because the other three magically dont function because reasons" for anything that isn't an AP0 weapon.
I wont. Its the same tripe theyve been throwing at us since Shadowspear. I'll believe it when I have a rules update in my hands that doesnt look like it was crafted by a high school work-study student.
grouchoben wrote: 40K Community page: "We don't hate them.... just wait and see!" ... There you go, a little more credence to the Inquisiton theory...
Keep on reaching for those straws. The Community team has an exceptional track record of being noncommittal, vague and downright wrong about anything and everything involving rules and updates.
let's be real here, he's referring to the WD update. It has not officially released yet. The wait and see is referring to the gak show we already know exists, lol.
As to the discussion with SIA, I totally agree. It's such a waste for the most part (unless you happen to be shooting at a vehicle, or range dictates you'll get more shots in with kraken) when the default is almost always hellfire.
bullyboy wrote: let's be real here, he's referring to the WD update. It has not officially released yet.
As far as I am informed subscribers get their copies mid of the month before the official release of WD. 15th of April seems like mid of the month to me
Automatically Appended Next Post: Basically, this is 6 unecessary pages. Could be said in a paragraph...
Thank you, this helps to understand the differences.
I agree they could be more tailored to the unique strengths and fighting style of the chapter.
Can you help me understand the bit about SIA conflicting with Tactical Doctrine and Bolter Discipline? I don't see that here, but assume there's something in a FAQ.
Thank you, this helps to understand the differences.
I agree they could be more tailored to the unique strengths and fighting style of the chapter.
Can you help me understand the bit about SIA conflicting with Tactical Doctrine and Bolter Discipline? I don't see that here, but assume there's something in a FAQ.
The exclusion of SIA with Bolter Discipline is part of the SIA ability itself (it was added via FAQ). Deathwatch have had bolter discipline since its inception, and this update doesnt change the way it excludes SIA.
As to doctrines and SIA, they're theoretically useable concurrently, but both Kraken and Vengeance have a hard cap on their AP value (AP2 and AP3 respectively), which makes doctrines far less valuable to those specific rounds for any bolter weapon that isnt AP0.
Thank you, this helps to understand the differences.
I agree they could be more tailored to the unique strengths and fighting style of the chapter.
Can you help me understand the bit about SIA conflicting with Tactical Doctrine and Bolter Discipline? I don't see that here, but assume there's something in a FAQ.
The exclusion of SIA with Bolter Discipline is part of the SIA ability itself (it was added via FAQ). Deathwatch have had bolter discipline since its inception, and this update doesnt change the way it excludes SIA.
As to doctrines and SIA, they're theoretically useable concurrently, but both Kraken and Vengeance have a hard cap on their AP value (AP2 and AP3 respectively), which makes doctrines far less valuable to those specific rounds for any bolter weapon that isnt AP0.
Exactly this.
AP - weapons like Boltguns, Storm Bolters, Bolt pistols, and Auto bolt rifles see no impact whether in their preferred Doctrine or not. The interaction of these two rules are clear, concise, and beneficial. No conflicts. Whatever you would have chosen before is what you will choose now, just as you mentioned.
AP -1 weapons like Bolt rifles and Stalker Pattern Boltguns won't change much outside their preferred Doctrine, but interact awkwardly when inside it. The AP bonus from the Doctrine hits the limit for Kraken rounds, making its only beneficial effect +6" to range. Vengeance rounds will only provide one extra point of AP (half the benefit) and still reduce the weapon's range by 6".
AP -2 weapons, mercifully only the Stalker bolt rifle, will only ever gain 6" to range with Kraken whether under the effects of a Doctrine or not. This isn't really new to Stalker Intercessors, but it gets weird with Vengeance rounds under Devastator Doctrine. You gain no AP bonus and cost yourself 6" for no upside. Outside of the Doctrine, Vengeance will provide you with only 1 point of AP (half the effect) and reduce the weapon's range by 6".
As usual, Dragonfire are still absolutely worthless because you are going to choose wounding on 2s over +1 to hit.
SIA probably needs to be rebuilt to be a tactical choice, but it's unlikely we'll see that anytime soon.
I've just had a good go at making a PA list to cheer me up - sorry, to me they just look *exactly* the same as pre-PA lists, with the possible exception of adding an autoboltriflebomb (but really, I don't think they'll be worth it compared to a cheaper more flexible vet bomb).
Aggressor bomb is now very good due to transhuman and -1. MSU bike squads are still solid. Vets are still king. We work best with 3 chaplain dreads, even more so now, so we can deny any armour targets. When they get canned in the FW update we will take the hit harder than any other SM faction imo.
Unless the do a new FWFAQ, DW Chaplain Bots don't get access to litanies, since they are specifically excluded from gaining them in the last FWFAQ...
EDIT: Wording from the FAQ:
Chaplain Venerable Dreadnought (excluding
Deathwatch, Space Wolves, Dark Angels and
Blood Angels models, as well as models from their
successor Chapters)
Add the Priest keyword
ImPhaeronWeasel wrote: But it also means since I have the vanilla SM 2.0 codex I dont have to get WD for the rules
Just mark the stratagems that have been copy pasted
The biggest benefit from this update....don't actually have to buy it. I've already marked my SM codex with the strats I can use.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
grouchoben wrote: I've just had a good go at making a PA list to cheer me up - sorry, to me they just look *exactly* the same as pre-PA lists, with the possible exception of adding an autoboltriflebomb (but really, I don't think they'll be worth it compared to a cheaper more flexible vet bomb).
.
So what would you be looking to add from other marines, that would still feel like it was added to deathwatch (if we indeed got access to vanguard)?
Spearhead with 3x Eliminators? A simple patrol? Vanguard with 3x Invictus? And if so, what WTs, relics, custom traits are you going to take to make it feel "Deathwatch"?
That's a good question! Triple Eliminators for sure, because I think they're in the top-3 units in the game right now, probably as ravenguard. And then while I'm there, maybe an assault cent bomb to take the t1 heat, infiltrating forward, and a thunderfire. Not sure on the HQ choice...
I'm not so fussed with Invictors, as they seem to only do well with some threat saturation, which means running a mech-heavy army, and we can never pull that off.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So yeah, something like 630pts of Ravenguard, and bonus points for keeping the black colour scheme going!
grouchoben wrote: That's a good question! Triple Eliminators for sure, because I think they're in the top-3 units in the game right now, probably as ravenguard. And then while I'm there, maybe an assault cent bomb to take the t1 heat, infiltrating forward, and a thunderfire. Not sure on the HQ choice...
If you're going for a Raven Guard (plus or minus succesor traits) plug in, a Phobos Captain with Marksmans Honors and the Korvidari Bolts is a personal favorite. 36" range sniper rifle that'll shoot through walls for a flat 4 damage at AP3 in Tac? Yes please. Only downside is that is somewhat requires Master Artisans to be reliable (S4 only goes so far). Park it midfield with Eliminators and Scouts and you've got the board control that DW desperately lacks.
And yes, you can do it purely via strats, even if you're double dipping on DWWL traits (despite both +1 WLT strats being named the same, their keywords are different, thus they dont run into the "different books but same strat" restrictions).
That is exactly how I run my Vanguard marines. A Raven supplementary force. I feel even more vindicated in that selection with the current doctrine system.
I already have a Ravenguard mostly vanguard army, may plug and play with some Deathwatch to see how it "feels" together. If I like it, I'll add some Vanguard with proper shoulder pads. Probably won't go full on Ravenguard rules though, I might try custom (although you do miss out on special wargear). My goal is to find the right setup that still screams Deathwatch, not what is the most powerful.
I feel that Raven Guard are the best flavor fit, that is why I chose them. The DW Kill Teams serve as your hammer and the Ravens serve as your scalpel and early board control. Their tactics work in unison to create a tactically sound force. The Raptors may even be better for flavor purposes, but lack a similar color scheme.
It fits my idea of DW perfectly to have Eliminators snipe out an Ork Warboss, or have Suppressors lock down overwatch for a charging Intergressor squad. I don't have any Incursors yet, but Infiltrators have been excellent for early board control and fairly resilient with smoke, RG tactics, and a Phobos Librarian keeping them safe.
If I'm souping I might go outside marines to be honest.
The big winner from our PA update is the storm bolter - it was already our best all-round weapon, but doctrines on the turn they most often DS is very signficant: it removes the one weakness of the weapon in that role. Honestly, I think the way forward with DW will be to run them as the minor partner in a soup list - a single batallion with 3 maxed-out vet squads, a jump cap with the beacon, and maybe a jumpchap to stack one squad to +2 to wound so they can chip damage if needs be.
That leaves around 1150-1200pts for board control and AT, with the three kill teams capable of dropping mucho pain on anything non-vehicle. That screams IG to me. Maybe Stygies.
Spec them to hold ground and slay marines, splurge all your cp on them, and leave everything else up to your other element.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So something like double IG batallion:
Batallion 1: Vostroyan
2 demolisher commanders
3 IS
Batallion 2: Emprah's Artillery Cadians (-2 cp)
tank commander
commander with aquila
3 IS
3 Astropaths
3 Basilisks, 2 with full payload
Then your DW contingent: jumpcap (w/beacon & relic sword), jumpchap, and 3 lots of:
2 termies
1 bike
1vanvet w/shield
5 vets w/shield
1 sarg with TH
Well unless we pair with other Marines we lose the Combat Doctrines, so if we Soup with IG/Knights all we really get is Littanies (Which doesn't pair as well from Reserves) and about 3-4 useful Stratagems.
grouchoben wrote: If I'm souping I might go outside marines to be honest.
The big winner from our PA update is the storm bolter - it was already our best all-round weapon, but doctrines on the turn they most often DS is very signficant: it removes the one weakness of the weapon in that role. Honestly, I think the way forward with DW will be to run them as the minor partner in a soup list - a single batallion with 3 maxed-out vet squads, a jump cap with the beacon, and maybe a jumpchap to stack one squad to +2 to wound so they can chip damage if needs be.
That leaves around 1150-1200pts for board control and AT, with the three kill teams capable of dropping mucho pain on anything non-vehicle. That screams IG to me. Maybe Stygies.
Spec them to hold ground and slay marines, splurge all your cp on them, and leave everything else up to your other element.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So something like double IG batallion:
Batallion 1: Vostroyan
2 demolisher commanders
3 IS
Batallion 2: Emprah's Artillery Cadians (-2 cp)
tank commander
commander with aquila
3 IS
3 Astropaths
3 Basilisks, 2 with full payload
Then your DW contingent: jumpcap (w/beacon & relic sword), jumpchap, and 3 lots of:
2 termies
1 bike
1vanvet w/shield
5 vets w/shield
1 sarg with TH
16cp before teleportarium.
You lose Doctrines here, so I'm not really sure what the point is. You certainly aren't removing the weakness of the Storm Bolter any longer.
Just so! Going outside marines is fine, but really changes almost nothing from our previous incarnation. Finding what synergies are best with the various Astartes factions is probably the only tactical gain from the PA update.
At least doctrines still provides us with a way to access scouts, Thunderfires, Vanguard marines, and the rest of the datasheets that fit our flavor and fill in the gaps in our forces.
The other only good Marine soup would be Iron Hands or RG but if Knights get something good in PAId trade combat doctrines for superior AT
Certainly, but it's good to be aware.
And it does actually open up some good options for those Marine forces that are alright with giving up their super doctrine. If they were going to go ahead and bring things like bikes, Aggressors, Intercessors, Hellblasters, Sternguard, or other such units, they can now consider giving up that super doctrine for Kill Teams instead.
My own marine force is Imperial Fists, so I definitely won't be souping, but I wonder if things like White Scars, Salamanders, Ultramarines, maybe even Raven Guard, might be alright with giving up the doctrine bonus for some Kill Team love that nets more CP than filling out a Vanguard detachment would.
RG is probably top, however I did make a list with Blood Angels, they have some good synergy as well, and Libby Dread is beast.
I'm trying to sort out our best options to try to make a list to achieve Best in Faction so a pure DW list.
Semi-Smash Capt
JumpChap
3 Vet squads for DS Max assault Intercessors
Max Aggressor Squad
MSU Bikes (Thunderhammer? Combi-Melta?)
After that trying to fill the holes. Perhaps some Chap dreads, Repluser Executioner?
A pair of Scorpius might be wirth proxying - they are a top-grade weapon only held back by their low strength. With a chap and WM support, getting both on +1 to wound with reroll hits and 1s to wound, with dev doctrine up, generates 17 dead Primaris or 12 damage on a 4++ knight. They seem a good match, benefitting from both of the DW buffs worth speaking of.
grouchoben wrote: A pair of Scorpius might be wirth proxying - they are a top-grade weapon only held back by their low strength. With a chap and WM support, getting both on +1 to wound with reroll hits and 1s to wound, with dev doctrine up, generates 17 dead Primaris or 12 damage on a 4++ knight. They seem a good match, benefitting from both of the DW buffs worth speaking of.
Chaplain's +1 To-Wound is against the closest target only, if I recall correctly.
I don't have the BA dex, so only going from what I've seen with BRs etc, but BA scouts seem decent (and give us cheaper screens), then fill with a few hard hitting characters. Their super doc is not amazing either, as it would kick in turn 3 at earliest, so no worry losing it.
I don't know much about Wolves, but their characters also seem beefy..
DA don't bring too much to the table that DW can't do already.
BA Incursors look promising as front-line shock troops. Their scouts are good enough for their price. Their Smash Captains are famous for a reason but doubling up when we want to use the Bacon (yes, bacon) Angelis seems redundant and CP heavy.
DA can bring an Azrael and Co. to create a back line castle if you need an anchor to stay on the board until your Kill Teams drop in. Their Hellblasters and Inceptors are nasty, but I feel hiding them in our NuMarine squads is honestly a more viable option.
Yeah, they don't add much overall.
@Chobits, Why not add an Aggressor to your Assault squad? The gains in movement are superior to to one rifle in a Bolstorm barrage, methinks. I personally don't care for Aggressors out of PriMarine squads, as having ObSec has been integral for me. (I never leave DW without an Intergressor assault squad. Such good bullies.)
@Chobits, Why not add an Aggressor to your Assault squad? The gains in movement are superior to to one rifle in a Bolstorm barrage, methinks. I personally don't care for Aggressors out of PriMarine squads, as having ObSec has been integral for me. (I never leave DW without an Intergressor assault squad. Such good bullies.)
That's a good point, I'll have to throw him in, I agree one intercessor would be a good drop for the mobility. Hell I could even take 5 Intercessors and 5 Aggressors Would end up a T5 unit with ablative wounds. The auto hit really comes in clutch for things like harlies and I can split their fire.
I'm a huge fan of DS 6-man aggressor bombs - before they were a bit fire and forget, now they got some lovely buffs. -1 on the turn they drop and a great choice for transhuman, and well positioned to use +wound litanies. In a clutch situation and if you can stack +1wound they can drop the equivalent of an average of 57 S8 -1 1d shots for some viable AT too.
At a theoretical level is there a reason not to just go full Aggressor Spam? Because enough S4/AP-1 kills anything.
In a 2k list you could go 4 characters+6*5 intercessors/5 aggressors.
Or with less CP, 3 characters, 3*5 intercessors/5 aggressors, 3*6 aggressors, and have a few points to spend on other things.
I'm not a fan of one unit of the aggressors - because while they are a massive threat, they tend to just get focused and die, and they are not that cheap (although buffs may help.) So you never get the ability to double your firepower.
But if you bring about 30, advance up the table turn one, second turn you should have a lot of the board in 18" - and most of them will still be alive.
grouchoben wrote: I'm a huge fan of DS 6-man aggressor bombs - before they were a bit fire and forget, now they got some lovely buffs. -1 on the turn they drop and a great choice for transhuman, and well positioned to use +wound litanies. In a clutch situation and if you can stack +1wound they can drop the equivalent of an average of 57 S8 -1 1d shots for some viable AT too.
They're a bargain for 222pts.
I personally just mix them into the Intercessor kill teams to unlock CP with more battalions and add 10 T5 ablative wounds before the Aggressors start dropping.
And I'm always trying to get them into combat as soon as I can. With a power fist sarge that unit is throwing out like 24 power fist attacks on the charge.
grouchoben wrote: I'm a huge fan of DS 6-man aggressor bombs - before they were a bit fire and forget, now they got some lovely buffs. -1 on the turn they drop and a great choice for transhuman, and well positioned to use +wound litanies. In a clutch situation and if you can stack +1wound they can drop the equivalent of an average of 57 S8 -1 1d shots for some viable AT too.
grouchoben wrote: I'm a huge fan of DS 6-man aggressor bombs - before they were a bit fire and forget, now they got some lovely buffs. -1 on the turn they drop and a great choice for transhuman, and well positioned to use +wound litanies. In a clutch situation and if you can stack +1wound they can drop the equivalent of an average of 57 S8 -1 1d shots for some viable AT too.
They're a bargain for 222pts.
You can't use Litanies on a Deep Striking unit.
You can always do this:
1) Have the blob of aggressor/intercessor on table right next to chaplain at the start, chant your litanies @ start of the turn.
2) Deepstrike turn 2 / or move your character with the beacon angelis to where you needed
3) Slingshot that squad of aggressor/intercessor buffed by litany forward near the beacon
4) unleashed the dakka
There is nothing like watching your opponent realize you can slingshot a whole squad of aggressor/intercessor really close to his units.
Random question on mixed units; as we all know 5 intercessors and 5 aggressors gets us a neat T5 unit as the controlling player can choose if there is not a majority toughness. If this unit was almost wiped out and I had 2 aggressors and 1 intercessor left, I could potentially use something like might of heroes to buff 1 aggressor up to T6, now making a 3 way tie and making what's left of the unit T6. As the mixed unit rule on the datasheet simply says the controlling player can choose in the event of a tie, would it be feasible to pick T6 (say from might of heroes on an aggressor again) during any other combination of models - such as if only 1 casualty has been taken (4x T4 intercessors, 4x T5 agressors and 1 T6 might of heroes aggressor)? It seems a bit gamey, but could be a way of getting a slightly worse version of transhuman physiology onto a second unit.
Insularum wrote: Random question on mixed units; as we all know 5 intercessors and 5 aggressors gets us a neat T5 unit as the controlling player can choose if there is not a majority toughness. If this unit was almost wiped out and I had 2 aggressors and 1 intercessor left, I could potentially use something like might of heroes to buff 1 aggressor up to T6, now making a 3 way tie and making what's left of the unit T6. As the mixed unit rule on the datasheet simply says the controlling player can choose in the event of a tie, would it be feasible to pick T6 (say from might of heroes on an aggressor again) during any other combination of models - such as if only 1 casualty has been taken (4x T4 intercessors, 4x T5 agressors and 1 T6 might of heroes aggressor)? It seems a bit gamey, but could be a way of getting a slightly worse version of transhuman physiology onto a second unit.
Technically, you might be able to do that.
That being said, I'd ask a TO how they'd rule if you were taking that a tournament, and just... Not do that in friendly games. Feels very janky, but also RAW.
Insularum wrote: Random question on mixed units; as we all know 5 intercessors and 5 aggressors gets us a neat T5 unit as the controlling player can choose if there is not a majority toughness. If this unit was almost wiped out and I had 2 aggressors and 1 intercessor left, I could potentially use something like might of heroes to buff 1 aggressor up to T6, now making a 3 way tie and making what's left of the unit T6. As the mixed unit rule on the datasheet simply says the controlling player can choose in the event of a tie, would it be feasible to pick T6 (say from might of heroes on an aggressor again) during any other combination of models - such as if only 1 casualty has been taken (4x T4 intercessors, 4x T5 agressors and 1 T6 might of heroes aggressor)? It seems a bit gamey, but could be a way of getting a slightly worse version of transhuman physiology onto a second unit.
Technically, you might be able to do that.
That being said, I'd ask a TO how they'd rule if you were taking that a tournament, and just... Not do that in friendly games. Feels very janky, but also RAW.
Definitely agreed on it not being polite!
Loosely on the topic of kill teams with aggressors, has anyone had any luck with a turn 1 beacon angelis slingshot? An advancing jump captain seems like he could drag them into cover in an annoying spot.
Loosely on the topic of kill teams with aggressors, has anyone had any luck with a turn 1 beacon angelis slingshot? An advancing jump captain seems like he could drag them into cover in an annoying spot.
The issue with a turn 1 beacon drop is that it generally involves exposing both the slingshotting unit and the beaconed unit. Being able to coordinate with drops out of teleportarium, as well as T2 moves, generally pays better dividends for me, but there's always niche cases depending on the facts on the group.
Insularum wrote: Random question on mixed units; as we all know 5 intercessors and 5 aggressors gets us a neat T5 unit as the controlling player can choose if there is not a majority toughness. If this unit was almost wiped out and I had 2 aggressors and 1 intercessor left, I could potentially use something like might of heroes to buff 1 aggressor up to T6, now making a 3 way tie and making what's left of the unit T6. As the mixed unit rule on the datasheet simply says the controlling player can choose in the event of a tie, would it be feasible to pick T6 (say from might of heroes on an aggressor again) during any other combination of models - such as if only 1 casualty has been taken (4x T4 intercessors, 4x T5 agressors and 1 T6 might of heroes aggressor)? It seems a bit gamey, but could be a way of getting a slightly worse version of transhuman physiology onto a second unit.
I'm not sure I follow in the second example. How could you choose T6 if it isn't a tie for majority? Wouldn't the unit now be T4 since it would be the majority toughness?
2 T5, 1T4 ... MoH makes it 1 T6, 1 T5, 1 T4. Seems perfectly fine to me, and not very powerful, so I don't see why a TO would stop you from following the rules.
Insularum wrote: Random question on mixed units; as we all know 5 intercessors and 5 aggressors gets us a neat T5 unit as the controlling player can choose if there is not a majority toughness. If this unit was almost wiped out and I had 2 aggressors and 1 intercessor left, I could potentially use something like might of heroes to buff 1 aggressor up to T6, now making a 3 way tie and making what's left of the unit T6. As the mixed unit rule on the datasheet simply says the controlling player can choose in the event of a tie, would it be feasible to pick T6 (say from might of heroes on an aggressor again) during any other combination of models - such as if only 1 casualty has been taken (4x T4 intercessors, 4x T5 agressors and 1 T6 might of heroes aggressor)? It seems a bit gamey, but could be a way of getting a slightly worse version of transhuman physiology onto a second unit.
I'm not sure I follow in the second example. How could you choose T6 if it isn't a tie for majority? Wouldn't the unit now be T4 since it would be the majority toughness?
The rule entry doesn't state you have to pick from the tied highest toughness values, i.e.
A. If there is a clear majority you must pick it
B. If there is not a clear majority you can pick from the available toughness values in the unit
grouchoben wrote:2 T5, 1T4 ... MoH makes it 1 T6, 1 T5, 1 T4. Seems perfectly fine to me, and not very powerful, so I don't see why a TO would stop you from following the rules.
3 models at T6 isn't the issue, more that you could do it on any odd sized unit by being selective on which casualties you pick up which could lead to a 9 man T6 squad.
For the 2nd example I would think it's tie between 4xT4 and 4xT5 so you use T5 rather than the lone guy's T6. Or is 40k's rules so silly that as long as it's any tie you can choose T of minority rather than from those that ties?
1xT4, 1xT5, 1xT6 sure T6 is there no problem. Though T6 is one of the least useful T values so rarely much use.
Loosely on the topic of kill teams with aggressors, has anyone had any luck with a turn 1 beacon angelis slingshot? An advancing jump captain seems like he could drag them into cover in an annoying spot.
The issue with a turn 1 beacon drop is that it generally involves exposing both the slingshotting unit and the beaconed unit. Being able to coordinate with drops out of teleportarium, as well as T2 moves, generally pays better dividends for me, but there's always niche cases depending on the facts on the group.
Yeah, it probably is too exposed. I'm going to have a play around with this and maybe a canticle of hate jump chaplain version to see if it can work, transhuman physiology should at least make it a pain to remove the squad which should take some heat off of everything else.
Loosely on the topic of kill teams with aggressors, has anyone had any luck with a turn 1 beacon angelis slingshot? An advancing jump captain seems like he could drag them into cover in an annoying spot.
In my recent list, 1 run a Drop pod with 7 SBSS Vets, Liby with Beacon (with veil of time and the FNP against MW spell), Inquisitor with Deny Overwatch and 5++ spells and a Watchmaster. They drop turn 1, then I use the beacon to port in a 5 Intercessor , 3 Aggressor, 2 Inceptor unit( which get all the psi buffs) Has some nice alpha strike potential and a decent chance to get in CC with the large blob, but is susceptible to screening (which has become less of a problem with all those mono marine builds...) and auspex scan (which can be used on the intercessors, but not on the vets/chars). It's definitely fun to play, but since the tournaments I weanted to try this list in where cancelled due to corona, it was only tested in semi-competitive environment...With the new rules, I have to try to get a chappy in range for the +2"-Charge aura - does the affected unit need to be in 6" of the chappy when charging or when the litany is used? The latter would be far easier to achive...
Edit: Ok, the unit has to be in range of the chappy when charging - this means a jump pack and some conga lining and a decent battle plan when setting up... makes things more complicated...
How are you guys gearing VVs for inclusion in vet squads for the special fall back rule? My gut instinct is to keep them cheep and cheerful with paired bolt pistols. You don’t want them eating wounds early, so I’d rather have more firepower then the SS. Even if it’s just another pistol shot. With special ammo, I don’t know if it’s worth the points for one of the special pistols (plasma/grav/handflamer)
A CC toy would not be out of line, but they are mostly there to let you maximize shooting. If you get tri-pointed, it could help cut the squad out.
Thoughts?
(Vet squads are still being built, but focused on shooting. Sarge/blacksheid (in made) would have CC gear, TDA with powersword)
For competitive level play, pistol and shield. The second SIA shot isnt worth giving up the survivability.
For friendly play, go to town. I semi-regularly run twin Infernos on my designated VV in 10-man Vet squads at my LGS and they absolutely throw people for a loop.
My limited stock of stomshields is going towards stombolter/stomshield vets. Although at 2ppm I can see the survivability boost being more relevant then the shot.
I realized that my supply of left handed bolt pistols was largely consumed in a 30k destroyer project that was abandoned. So it was either go with alternate pistols, do a lot of chopping, or just pop some shoulderpads off.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Try using the melee weapon packs from FW. Decent amount t of left handed pistols plus you get some awesome weapons too.
I’ve occasionally drooled over a lot of FW stuff. My Deathwatch are honestly a tertiary army, after my Ultras and Eldar. There are limits of what I’m willing to invest in them. And if I’m going to buy FW stuff, there is a long list of things ahead of some spare weapons in the queue. My DW is basically built out of my extensive bits box and a SC box. And a lot of spare marine bodies.
And at the end of the day, I’m a casual player, so don’t need to worry about peak efficiency. But I do like know what it is, and bouncing ideas around off of other players to check if I’m missing something critical.
My DW is basically built out of my extensive bits box and a SC box. And a lot of spare marine bodies.
In fairness, that's how many Deathwatch armies are built in my experience. One of the big appeals IMO is the artistic freedom to approach them from really any angle you want.
For the VV in Veteran squads I prefer dual BPs. Storm Shields go on the regular PA guys but I usually want to keep the VV alive until last so I can Fall Back and shoot so the extra survivability isn't worth it. Still, it's not like a SS is expensive or the extra BP is brilliant or anything so I don't think it's wrong to give them a SS.
Okay, let me pick your brains a little on AT, the nemesis of Deathwatch.
Here are my top four contenders, assuming we want to go pure to unlock doctrines. Really appreciate your choice of the four, along with your reasoning behind it. Here goes:
1) SCA Leviathan and a pair of Las-mortis dreads.
Obvious, chunky, come loaded with invulns, make use of the lovely new* dread strat. Leviathan is a bit short range but with Big Guns it now has a threat range of 32", which is sure to be enought to reach out and touch something of high value. Mortis are quality AT and as a bonus unlock the Lev's relic tax with ease.
2) Hellblasters. All of them.
We take a unit of ten deepstriking, and two fortis teams stacked with 5 each. Synergises well with our obvious focus on infantry, and are +to wound abilities, and the new* Chaplain litanies to make them safe to overcharge. 20 Hellblaster shots DSing in is a serious game changer often enough, and a hell-fortis with the beacon can likewise maximise rangebands very easily. Added coolness because every other SM commander has left Hellblasters for dead, and so the hipster in all of us (you play Deathwatch! Don't even deny it!) gets their day in the sun.
3) 2 Xiphons and a Corvus.
In one sense the most fragile pick of the four, in another the most durable. With ITC rules now giving second player full sight of the deployment, the 50" range of these badboys can often deny most firepower on turn one. Conversely if they get turn one, not very much can hide from them. The single Corvus is an odd pick and probably not quite optimal, BUT the new* Big Guns strat does make it a not-bad unit now, and its carry capacity can be clutch (it doesn't have to be a full ten-man squad in there - a single jump cap can get a lot of benefit from it too.) Two xiphons cross-stitching the board, getting first turn with full rerolls to hit, reroll 1s to wound, extra doctrinal ap, and at least one on +1 to wound is a very dangerous AT setup. The corvus is wildcard, getting to be anywhere on the board hitting 3+ rerolling 1s against ground targets, which is useful in its own right.
4) another batallion, stupid.
Five more CP and much more dakka is a valid option here. If you stack bonuses litanies and strats every one of our troops choices is capable of doing way more than chip-damage. Plus you will often choose to ignore your opponents heavy elements, obliterate their troops, and win the groundwar.
I fully expect him to get krunked with the nerfbat soon enough in the FW redux, because I think hes the cheeziest unit in the game atm. BTW the list isn't mean to be exhausitve, just four ideas for strong AT in the faction.
Been out of the game over a year and thinking of playing again when current events have calmed down.
Seems like there have been some major changes to space marines and some minor recent changes with deathwatch just got a couple of questions:
1) Does bolter discipline still not play nicely with special ammo?
2) Now we have doctrines do we now play nicely with other chapters? and if allied with other chapters do they still get their super doctrine?
Finally the question the others are building up to:
3) I would quite like to add a spear head off eliminators to my deathwatch forces what would be an effective way to do this? Its mainly for the aesthetics but having them provide some anti-character or even armour fire power with the Las fusils would be nice.
Been thinking raven guard with bolt rifles or ironhands with las fusils if they get their super doctrines. If not maybe successors using Bolter Fusilades and Stealthy tactics with bolt rifles? (read a post somewhere that sucessor chapters get the founding chapters super doctrine but this seems unlikely to me, is this true?)
Sterling191 wrote: If you ally Deathwatch with Marines you will not get super-doctrines.
Bolter discipline does not work with SIA (feth you GW).
Eliminators are exceptional. Run em in their sniper form as a successor chapter with Master Artisans and you'll terrify every character on the table.
Awesome, that's great to know. Pity about the ammo and the superdoctrines (was looking forward to Ravenguard character hunters), but seems fair. Good shout on the master artisans, with the low number of shots that will be very helpful and seems appropriate for Deathwatch snipers.
Maybe i will try out hellblasters, i got 15 of them and i swear till now, i never played one of them
Yah give them a go dude, they do work. I think one DS max squad is cool, leaving you 2 slots in the teleporter for killteams. The do love a good nullzone, and the new chap litany for +1 to hit. If you can get both off and pop the wound strat near an ectoclades cap they do 38 damage to a knight, 18 without nullzone.
grouchoben wrote: I fully expect him to get krunked with the nerfbat soon enough in the FW redux, because I think hes the cheeziest unit in the game atm. BTW the list isn't mean to be exhausitve, just four ideas for strong AT in the faction.
Probably the legends nerfbat. It's an out of production model.
Sterling191 wrote: If you ally Deathwatch with Marines you will not get super-doctrines.
Bolter discipline does not work with SIA (feth you GW).
Eliminators are exceptional. Run em in their sniper form as a successor chapter with Master Artisans and you'll terrify every character on the table.
Awesome, that's great to know. Pity about the ammo and the superdoctrines (was looking forward to Ravenguard character hunters), but seems fair. Good shout on the master artisans, with the low number of shots that will be very helpful and seems appropriate for Deathwatch snipers.
Apparently RAW Doctrines don't work modifying a bunch of the Ammo as well as some of them have a cap.
Maybe i will try out hellblasters, i got 15 of them and i swear till now, i never played one of them
Yah give them a go dude, they do work. I think one DS max squad is cool, leaving you 2 slots in the teleporter for killteams. The do love a good nullzone, and the new chap litany for +1 to hit. If you can get both off and pop the wound strat near an ectoclades cap they do 38 damage to a knight, 18 without nullzone.
So you mean 15 are enough or should there be min 20? One big squad of 10 for DS, an 2x 5 in an intereccessor squad situanational for obsec?
Hesselhof wrote: With the new Harleys the Hellblaster spam could be out soon, minus to hit, minus to wound
Accuracy maluses have been the achilles heel of plasma the entire edition. Eldar in general have been a big player in that, so this is really nothing new. Your bolter vets / ABR Intergressor teams have the weight of fire necessary to punch through that against Harlies. That's their job, and theyre frankly pretty good at it (hellfire rounds in large quantities are deceptively potent against most of what a murderclown list will put on the table).
Harlequins actually got some pretty damn good rules. I'd recommend researching them so that anyone using Deathwatch is totally prepared. For example, they can make it so anything the Death Jester shoots cannot use Overwatch.
I was thinking of starting up a Deathwatch force and I was wondering how competitive they are in the 1k-1.5k points range. My local group rarely goes above this point limit for friendly/casual games and so I wanted to know how they stacked up against the other options I was considering building (Custodes and Grey Knights).
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Grey Knights would be amazing compared to Deathwatch so I would use them instead.
It still feels odd to see posts like this now. What a difference a good PA book can make.
It really wasn't even the Strats (though some helped) but the Tides themselves basically covering the needs of better smite, durability, and better melee. The shooting one sucks but the other three make up for it.
Pete - Yes. You can paint the new Marines in whatever color you like. Available to ALL the different Chapters of Space Marines.
Stu - Including Deathwatch.
Q9: What about Deathwatch?
Pete - Yes. Some plans in their head around Deathwatch. Listening to the community. "Pretty soon" after the release of 9th edition the "fruits of their labors" will be revealed.
So deathwatch looks to be early codex. Good for you! Another note of interest is the capping of modifiers so above comment regarding harlies isn't as bad in future. -1 comes but no need to worry about -2 except to negate any + modifiers you might have.
Pete - Yes. You can paint the new Marines in whatever color you like. Available to ALL the different Chapters of Space Marines.
Stu - Including Deathwatch.
Q9: What about Deathwatch?
Pete - Yes. Some plans in their head around Deathwatch. Listening to the community. "Pretty soon" after the release of 9th edition the "fruits of their labors" will be revealed.
I will believe it when I have it in my hands. Getting faffed around for a year and a half leaves me with zero faith in GW getting Deathwatch right.
For anti-tank, I'm also looking to throw thunder hammers onto the veteran squad leaders and black shields for another 8 or so attacks on the charge. With the chaplain +2 charge and Veil of time from a Librarian to reroll charges I think its reasonable to expect one or two deep-striking squads to make it in. This would be in addition to some of the other options being discussed of course!
bmsattler wrote: For anti-tank, I'm also looking to throw thunder hammers onto the veteran squad leaders and black shields for another 8 or so attacks on the charge. With the chaplain +2 charge and Veil of time from a Librarian to reroll charges I think its reasonable to expect one or two deep-striking squads to make it in. This would be in addition to some of the other options being discussed of course!
Changes to CP are going to be very meaningful for Deathwatch lists methinks. I know the points dont really matter right now, but being able to trim down on deadweight HQs is something to look forward to.
I just hope we get a book that makes our core troops more viable and competitive. Having a lot more cp wile l huge since we are so cp heavy. Will have to see how our access to anti tank goes. That has always been our weakness and lots will also depend on the forgeworld updates.
Curious to see how corvus are affected by the changes. It seems a lot more solid with the shooting changes and no longer having - to hit. With reroll 1s to hit against ground targets it seems decent as an anti vehicle platform
it would be better as anti-infantry, but that is not an area that Deathwatch have to worry about.
It can currently already have no neg to hit from big guns never tire strat... I've tried it out in an airwing with 2 xiphons, and yeah It's okay. I think it's best kiited with hurricane, 2 assault and blackstar rockets with auspex to give it some anti-horde/troop power, but of course that's our forté, so it's a bit redundant. If you go AT with it it's just vastly outclassed by the xiphon.
240pts already leaves the Xiphon outside of competitive play really (and the corvus is way below it!), so putting up it's points out of proportion to the general inceases will just bury it. It might happen of course, but it comes wayyyy below contemptors, levs, deredeos, or even scorpius. I think it's there alongside the sicarans in terms of competitiveness.
Point values on vehicles specifically are going to change significantly going into 9th (alongside everything else that's getting re-pointed). What theyre at in 8th is not a guidepost I would lean on.
Sterling191 wrote: Gee Dubs strikes again. Want to use the anti-Greenskin strat? Congrats, now you have to pay a CP to even be able to pay the CP for it!
fething idiocy.
Since they said on the stream that the Tau strat would not require to first pay for overwatch, I assume the same is true for our strats as well.
Since they said on the stream that the Tau strat would not require to first pay for overwatch, I assume the same is true for our strats as well.
Assuming that GW is willing or capable of writing competent or functional Deathwatch abilities is an exercise in futility. Theyve spent two years screwing over our ruleset and Im not going to expect them to do otherwise until they demonstrate a modicum of higher brain function.
Sterling191 wrote: Gee Dubs strikes again. Want to use the anti-Greenskin strat? Congrats, now you have to pay a CP to even be able to pay the CP for it!
fething idiocy.
We know there is going to be a day-1 FAQ for every army. I suspect every single strat and ability that deals with Overwatch will be looked at and many of them overhauled significantly. We may even see things like Stem the Green Tide change how ti works completely. Maybe it'll now affect Ork morale in some way? We haven't seen any details on the new morale rules yet so it's hard to say for sure. What we do know is things will be updated.
Since they said on the stream that the Tau strat would not require to first pay for overwatch, I assume the same is true for our strats as well.
Assuming that GW is willing or capable of writing competent or functional Deathwatch abilities is an exercise in futility. Theyve spent two years screwing over our ruleset and Im not going to expect them to do otherwise until they demonstrate a modicum of higher brain function.
Now we are diving in conspiracy theory territory. If any theory you hold centers around the idea of the company having a personal grudge against a portion of its customer base, its not going to hold much water.
Now we are diving in conspiracy theory territory. If any theory you hold centers around the idea of the company having a personal grudge against a portion of its customer base, its not going to hold much water.
Bad rules writing doesnt require GW to hate a faction. It only requires apathy, which they have consistently demonstrated across 8th.
Lemondish wrote: I just want the damn Corvus to be able to carry Primaris. That and Land Raiders.
This. I was so hopeful when 9th got announced, but the fact that tthey will be using 8th datasheets for most things is disapointing. Probably going to get a primaris Corvus model three years from now with a 20% point cost premium.
The unit looks solid as-is, but I suspect they are going to reshuffle our Fortis teams. Where they shuffle eradicators, outriders, and bladeguard vets in will play heavily into our kill team composition. I'm also rooting for reviers getting shuffled over into a phobos kill team, but that's wish-listing.
I'm not a big fan of the lack of melee weapons. Unlike Aggressors, Eradicators don't seem to have the ability to defend themselves while still being very close range units. Putting them into a Fortis team would be problematic as their ability to double-shoot is tied to the unit shooting at a single target.
Of course, if they allow the entire unit to double-shoot then I'm still sold!
bmsattler wrote: I'm not a big fan of the lack of melee weapons. Unlike Aggressors, Eradicators don't seem to have the ability to defend themselves while still being very close range units. Putting them into a Fortis team would be problematic as their ability to double-shoot is tied to the unit shooting at a single target.
Of course, if they allow the entire unit to double-shoot then I'm still sold!
There is zero chance of a unit-wide double tap. You want Aggressors that can fire four times? Storm Bolter Plasma? Assault Cannon SIA?
Three Eliminators in a Fortis team with two Aggressors and five Intercessors arent going to worry for a moment about getting bogged down in melee..
Well given that they very likely just put a bullet in the head of the Veteran-based kill team if the stormshield rumors and accompanying points changes are accurate, we're going to need everything we can get.
Not saying DW, just saying a detachment of Salamanders get +1 to wound. not entirely out of the realm of possibility to soup these guys with the max potential for silliness.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Not saying DW, just saying a detachment of Salamanders get +1 to wound. not entirely out of the realm of possibility to soup these guys with the max potential for silliness.
The +1 to wound for Salamanders requires only Salamander units in the entire army to retain their superdoctrine. If you soup, you lose it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Attack allocation rules have changed. Once a model in a unit has an attack allocated to it, it has to continue taking all remaining attacks in a phase until it either dies or saves them all.
Also, we can access +1 to wound with a strat for 2cp, while still using the mission and watchmaster buffs, so I think souping in sallies isn't really worth it...
Automatically Appended Next Post: Yeah just chatting about that allocation rule with a mate. It's bad news for us and custodes for sure...
Yeah just chatting about that allocation rule with a mate. It's bad news for us and custodes for sure...
It hurts a bunch of armies. Tau and SW rely on it, as does any unit that uses survivable ablative wounds.
Im genuinely struggling to conceive of what Vets can bring to the table now, especially with the possibility of losing the Fall Back + Shoot/Charge (the bike + VanVet slingshot charge is already dead thanks to the new Coherency rule).
So where can I read this, because Terminators or anything with lots of attacks or high price melee is going to hurt? If I understand this it's by unit to unit? IE a Unit of Custodes guard (3x spears) gets 6 attacks, against a unit of boyz. First hit kills a boy, and other attacks are allocated in line? Now it's per model? So the other 5 attacks after the first are wasted? How did shooting survive this rule? It makes way more sense that a burst of bolter fire hits one model and then is over than my custodes kill a gretchen then proceed to pile in and beat it's corpse into paste.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So where can I read this, because Terminators or anything with lots of attacks or high price melee is going to hurt? If I understand this it's by unit to unit? IE a Unit of Custodes guard (3x spears) gets 6 attacks, against a unit of boyz. First hit kills a boy, and other attacks are allocated in line? Now it's per model? So the other 5 attacks after the first are wasted? How did shooting survive this rule? It makes way more sense that a burst of bolter fire hits one model and then is over than my custodes kill a gretchen then proceed to pile in and beat it's corpse into paste.
No. This has nothing to do with outgoing fire. It's about the fact that in 8th, Deathwatch relied on the capacity to shunt wounds to various models in a unit based on which kinds of attacks each model was best suited to defend against. High AP shots went to storm shields, low AP shots went to terminators.
In 9th, that kind of thing isnt possible. Once a model in a unit has an attack allocated against them, all subsequent attacks in the phase aimed at the unit are resolved against that model.
Simply put, between losing the capacity to selectively save attacks, and shields functioning radically differently, Veteran squads are going to look a lot different. If they see the table at all.
The specific details are in the 9th edition rules making the rounds.
So have peeps seen the new stormshield rules that came out with the new units? 4++ and 1+ to armour saves. Think this will change up how deathwatch squads will be taken?
Obviously points will matter but it gels as well as can be hoped with the allocation changes. It makes any vet with shield as strong against small arms and AT as possible.
Given that the Frag Cannon seems to get the new Blast special rule despite being an auto-hit weapon, do you guys think it will be viable to use again (assuming the points for the weapon don't change)?
grouchoben wrote: One termi is still a great shout - the question is do we still need two?
I'm inclined to say no.
Very hard to answer without knowing what our day 1 rules FAQ and points updates look like. I personally think we're going to need to lean into the assault role more, so having more power weapon toting terminators (who consequently may or may not still make us immune to a more punishing morale phase) isnt necessarily a negative in my book.
grouchoben wrote: One termi is still a great shout - the question is do we still need two?
I'm inclined to say no.
Depends on whether +1 str power swords are the new standard, and whether there is a clarification on 1+ armour save characteristics for SS terminators. If either of those are official then multiple terminators are good to go.
grouchoben wrote: One termi is still a great shout - the question is do we still need two?
I'm inclined to say no.
Depends on whether +1 str power swords are the new standard, and whether there is a clarification on 1+ armour save characteristics for SS terminators. If either of those are official then multiple terminators are good to go.
That would be exceptionally stupid. It instantly invalidates both the Maul and the Axe as options.
grouchoben wrote: One termi is still a great shout - the question is do we still need two?
I'm inclined to say no.
Depends on whether +1 str power swords are the new standard, and whether there is a clarification on 1+ armour save characteristics for SS terminators. If either of those are official then multiple terminators are good to go.
That would be exceptionally stupid. It instantly invalidates both the Maul and the Axe as options.
Which means its going to happen.
Kind of depends on how they go about it. Right now they are each 3 stat points distributed in various combination of Str/AP - swords are 0:3, axes are split 1:2, and mauls are 2:1. If swords jump to 1:3, which would be awesome, then it could mean a similar boost to all the other cheaper power weapons.
Or swords end up costing more?
Either way, I would welcome power swords being great.
I shouldnt be surprised, but the fact that our Faction Focus article touts the Blackstar as a means to get Intercessors around the table, while simultaneously quoting the rule that excludes Primaris from riding in it, both irks and amuses me.
Pyrosphere wrote: That passage only talks about "Squads" - no reference to Intercessors/Primaris.
It's literally the next paragraph after they extoll the virtues of Fortis Kill Teams. The implication, and idiocy, is on full display. Just like the subsequent statement about Watch Masters rerolling everything, followed by the rule where they explicitly dont.
grouchoben wrote: One termi is still a great shout - the question is do we still need two?
I'm inclined to say no.
Depends on whether +1 str power swords are the new standard, and whether there is a clarification on 1+ armour save characteristics for SS terminators. If either of those are official then multiple terminators are good to go.
That would be exceptionally stupid. It instantly invalidates both the Maul and the Axe as options.
Which means its going to happen.
Honestly, trying to keep the different melee weapons valid has always been a mess. The game just needs "power weapons" and "heavy power weapons" and call it good. Let people put what they think looks cool on their toys.
AP was always a balance measure as well. This weapon has a higher bonus to strength, but this weapon as a greater AP, where are this weapon does x weirdness (Crozier).
Doesn't matter anyway I sneer at your Space Marine Variety. Just play Custodes, you can only use 1 of three options!
So DW will get access to all Indomitus units on release. That's quite big news, especially for the bikes and eradicators. 3x3 eradicators for 360pts looks like a great pick for DW...
Well, that's 20pts per melta shot on a chunky frame that can take WM bubbles, missions and doctrines, making it one of the better places for an eradicator, in a faction that desperately needs AT. I think they're criminally undercosted personally, so I may have to go hunting for a few more models...
Eldarain wrote: They are one of the most egregious examples of the Marine imbalance I've been hating on for a year now so I don't think I can get on board.
I'm honestly considering just selling my DW off if we're heading down the same path while the rest of the game remains stunted.
That's unfortunate, but I totally understand. If you do decide to sell, which I admit is a tough decision, I hope you think about the folks here first and give us a shot at giving you a good deal, fellow watch master.
As far as Eradicators go, I think they're definitely going to be cheap...but I still need to play a game on a proper 9th edition board before I can for certain say they will be powerful. They feel a bit short range for what they bring to me.
I think our reserve abilities and mobility options (Angelis, homers) and the possibility of them being options for our mixed squads will make them particularly effective for us.
Hey Lemondish, I've played three games of 9th now, and the board change is huge, as is the change in focus onto objectives. 29" threat range isn't ideal, but it's workable, especially with deployment shenanigans. Since they're such low power level, reserving them is a strong option. Your opponent cannot stay 29" away from every board edge, they're gonna get the shot they want. On the other hand, they'll do great work as anti-elite in a pinch due to their relatively RoF, so starting them behind ruins is a strong option too: With a watchmaster they're gonna kill 4.4 intercessors per 120pt squad.
grouchoben wrote: Hey Lemondish, I've played three games of 9th now, and the board change is huge, as is the change in focus onto objectives. 29" threat range isn't ideal, but it's workable, especially with deployment shenanigans. Since they're such low power level, reserving them is a strong option. Your opponent cannot stay 29" away from every board edge, they're gonna get the shot they want. On the other hand, they'll do great work as anti-elite in a pinch due to their relatively RoF, so starting them behind ruins is a strong option too: With a watchmaster they're gonna kill 4.4 intercessors per 120pt squad.
Thanks for the insight! Exalted!
Super excited to get some games in, but there's no chance at that for me anytime soon.
It is certainly really nice to hear that a unit like this can sit out for a turn and still make a major splash in the match. I always felt as if my elite armies like Deathwatch needed every unit to contribute right from the very beginning, but that may be kind of a feeling rather than reality.
Now that we have the info for these units already, are you planning on proxying any in?
Yeah my next game will be DW! Tried out GSC yesterday, i do love the liberty of TTS for experimenting! Def. Gonna try out outriders and eradicators then, in a zero-vehicle list. Plasceptors are gonna be hot as hell too, they got such a point drop!
Going to be honest, if im hoping for anything out of Indomitus to make it into the Fortis team, its the Outrider. One of my very favorite configurations for Vets is the 3x Bike, 2x VanVet combat squad and even the possibility of doing that with 3x Outriders and 2x Inceptors makes me cackle.
Probably not the most competitive thing, but zooming up the board with a dozen bolt rifle SIA plus a dozen heavy bolter shots, plus the ludicrous number of attacks the squad can put out, while still being Infantry makes me smile just thinking about it.
Stormshields are 4pts
Stormbolters are 3
Basic veterans are 17
Whereas an ABR Intercessor is now 20
Oh and all kill teams lost fallback and shoot.
So Vanguards and Inceptors add nothing now? Neat...
Nevermind, figured out the confusion. Odd they changed so much and still referenced the Fly rule even though the Fly rule doesn't let you fall back and shoot anymore.
Glad I mixed SS/SB and SB/CS on my Vets. Another step towards Primaris or GTFO though. Will wait to see how we fare in the Uber Marine book before I make a call I guess.
I personally see less value in the Intercessors as they can no longer claim objectives while also shooting.
With the action economy for winning missions, as well as being scored at the top of the turn I believe that durability is going to be king, and out veterans squads bring that to the table in spades.
Sad to see vanguard are wasted now, no point in having them in any kill teams anymore, same with inceptors.
Leth wrote: So it’s 24 points versus 20? Seems perfectly in line with the points increases you see normally.
In line, perhaps, but on a unit that desperately needed anything other than the status quo. Target allocation changes hurt badly, and with an ABR intercessor (with that ever tempting Eradicator build waiting in the wings) doing nearly as well in shooting and better in melee, there's not a compelling reason to take the Veteran anymore.
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Leth wrote: I personally see less value in the Intercessors as they can no longer claim objectives while also shooting.
Incorrect. Actions are not the only way you keep objectives.
Leth wrote: With the action economy for winning missions, as well as being scored at the top of the turn I believe that durability is going to be king, and out veterans squads bring that to the table in spades.
No they dont. Any competent opponent with multiple forms of fire can bait out saves and subsequently dismantle Vet squads.
Leth wrote: Sad to see vanguard are wasted now, no point in having them in any kill teams anymore, same with inceptors.
This was an initial misreading on my part. Vanguard/Inceptor Strike does still permit falling back and shooting. Its one of the few saving graces we got.
Leth wrote: So it’s 24 points versus 20? Seems perfectly in line with the points increases you see normally.
In line, perhaps, but on a unit that desperately needed anything other than the status quo. Target allocation changes hurt badly, and with an ABR intercessor (with that ever tempting Eradicator build waiting in the wings) doing nearly as well in shooting and better in melee, there's not a compelling reason to take the Veteran anymore.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Leth wrote: I personally see less value in the Intercessors as they can no longer claim objectives while also shooting.
Incorrect. Actions are not the only way you keep objectives.
Leth wrote: With the action economy for winning missions, as well as being scored at the top of the turn I believe that durability is going to be king, and out veterans squads bring that to the table in spades.
No they dont. Any competent opponent with multiple forms of fire can bait out saves and subsequently dismantle Vet squads.
We will have to see but my initial impreession is that we came out pretty well. They can really dismantle a squad because one model has to carry over? It’s easier than before true, but not to the point where I would worry to much, if they are putting that much fire power from multiple units into one squad based on the last save? More power to them, my other squads will sit with popcorn. Definitely see more terminators with stormshields and storm bolters for 30 points being solid.
Never said they were the only way. Sorry I didn’t spell out everything, the lack of invul saves makes me less likely to trust intercessors with babysitting objectives. Durability will be king when it comes to scoring points. An invul save provides a guarantee than your opponent can’t overcome, It introduces uncertainty into their battle plans beyond just overwhelming firepower.
Need to adjust the mentality towards top of turn scoring, veterans versatility in unit composition As well as the ability to do everything at once is going to be huge in that regards. Might take awhile before we figure it out however
Teleport homers being 5 points was cute though
I see drop pods being HUGE since you can set them up on your first turn. With objectives being closer to the center of the table, being able to box them out by going first is pretty significant. Add on that we don’t really have a super doctrine that matters we can bring in allies relatively easily.
Leth wrote: Sorry my mistake maybe more bikers than terminators in that case for T5
Only the Sergeant in a DW bike squad can take a shield. Bikes in Vet squads have zero access to them, or to special weapons. They can only choose melee weapons.
Leth wrote: Sorry I didn’t spell out everything, the lack of invul saves makes me less likely to trust intercessors with babysitting objectives. Durability will be king when it comes to scoring points. An invul save provides a guarantee than your opponent can’t overcome, It introduces uncertainty into their battle plans beyond just overwhelming firepower.
Since Primaris have 2 Wounds, would't Fortis Kill Teams with some Blade Guard mixed in be more durable than normal Vets?
Leth wrote: Sorry I didn’t spell out everything, the lack of invul saves makes me less likely to trust intercessors with babysitting objectives. Durability will be king when it comes to scoring points. An invul save provides a guarantee than your opponent can’t overcome, It introduces uncertainty into their battle plans beyond just overwhelming firepower.
Since Primaris have 2 Wounds, would't Fortis Kill Teams with some Blade Guard mixed in be more durable than normal Vets?
If they get blade guard sure? But if you think that armies won’t be loading up on D2 weapons then I got a house in a flood plain to sell you. Even then, Bladeguard don’t have shooting weapons that I can tell and so I am curious what they offer for their 2 wounds over terminators.
How did the Blackstar turn out? It finally gets the Machine Spirit it always needed. Just a question of how expensive it got. That and Dreadnought pricing probably has a lot to do with how well we transition, at least until we can start adding super meltas the the Fortis teams.
LunarSol wrote: How did the Blackstar turn out? It finally gets the Machine Spirit it always needed. Just a question of how expensive it got. That and Dreadnought pricing probably has a lot to do with how well we transition, at least until we can start adding super meltas the the Fortis teams.
It went down a smidge depending on the loadout. If my napkin math is accurate its 200 points tricked out.
LunarSol wrote: How did the Blackstar turn out? It finally gets the Machine Spirit it always needed. Just a question of how expensive it got. That and Dreadnought pricing probably has a lot to do with how well we transition, at least until we can start adding super meltas the the Fortis teams.
It went down a smidge depending on the loadout. If my napkin math is accurate its 200 points tricked out.
At 195 for its cheapest loadout currently, that's a pretty decent cost reduction. Hopefully it'll actually see play now.
Just being able to have out kill teams on the table turn 1 will be huge for winning missions, corvus and drop pods will be clutch if we got for high damage kill teams without the durability.
Leth wrote: Just being able to have out kill teams on the table turn 1 will be huge for winning missions, corvus and drop pods will be clutch if we got for high damage kill teams without the durability.
Im not sold on this. The amount of points it would require to get saturation on objectives with pods and/or planes is high enough that you're losing a sizeable chunk of our already precious bodies to hold said objectives. It also effectively requires first turn for the pods.
if 63 points gets you even 5 VP then it has more than paid for itself.
Objective claiming on turn 1 is crucial. I don’t think people have really internalized how much top of the turn scoring matters for the game going forward
Leth wrote: if 63 points gets you even 5 VP then it has more than paid for itself.
Objective claiming on turn 1 is crucial. I don’t think people have really internalized how much top of the turn scoring matters for the game going forward
63 points plus the 240 (or more) for the Vet squad inside. And if you dont think armies out there can mulch through ten T4 3+/3++ 1W bodies in a single turn, you're fooling yourself.
Against an unprepared opponent, you may get it. Against a player who has a functional understanding of screening and board coverage, you're never going to get it if you dont get first turn.
Leth wrote: If they can burn through a 10 man vet squad and a drop pod while nothing else in the game matters! You are correct.
If the rest of my army has an impact on the game? You are incorrect.
If you're making a play for objectives, and get yourself shot off those objectives, then your play failed. Kill points barely matter in 9th. Objective scoring does. If you're not scoring primaries, all the secondaries in the world wont save you.
Not sure where you desire to explicitly say I am wrong comes from when I am just throwing idea out there on instinct but it is pretty obnoxious.
Then maybe dont suggest allocating 15% of your army to a one-off strategy that will only achieve results against an unprepared player in very narrow circumstances?
The window of viability for this army at present is exceedingly narrow. The expectation of being able to just "throw out ideas" and have them all magically work, is not helping.
Leth wrote: Sorry I didn’t spell out everything, the lack of invul saves makes me less likely to trust intercessors with babysitting objectives. Durability will be king when it comes to scoring points. An invul save provides a guarantee than your opponent can’t overcome, It introduces uncertainty into their battle plans beyond just overwhelming firepower.
Since Primaris have 2 Wounds, would't Fortis Kill Teams with some Blade Guard mixed in be more durable than normal Vets?
If they get blade guard sure? But if you think that armies won’t be loading up on D2 weapons then I got a house in a flood plain to sell you. Even then, Bladeguard don’t have shooting weapons that I can tell and so I am curious what they offer for their 2 wounds over terminators.
GW already confirmed that DW will get access to the new units (no mention of Vangurads Marines). So I strongly suspect that these will be mixed in to either Fortis Kill Teams or maybe some new type of Kill Team. Maybe by armor class? At least for Vangurads if they finally arrive in the DW.
I wager we don't ever get Vanguards since they're the Scout replacement in the model line.
I wager we'll get the new stuff as killteam options. The big question is whether we'll be able to mix assault Intercessors the base 5 or whether they'll be the start of a new killteam type.
LunarSol wrote: I wager we don't ever get Vanguards since they're the Scout replacement in the model line.
I wager we'll get the new stuff as killteam options. The big question is whether we'll be able to mix assault Intercessors the base 5 or whether they'll be the start of a new killteam type.
The obvious solution to the Assault Intercessor conundrum is to treat it as a wargear option for the basic Fortis datasheet ("May replace its Bolt Rifle with Heavy Bolt Pistol and Astartes Chainsword"). That said, I dont expect we'll see integration into squads until a new codex. At best they're just going to say "you can replace <CHAPTER> with DEATHWATCH, have fun!" and call it a day.
LunarSol wrote: I wager we don't ever get Vanguards since they're the Scout replacement in the model line.
I wager we'll get the new stuff as killteam options. The big question is whether we'll be able to mix assault Intercessors the base 5 or whether they'll be the start of a new killteam type.
The obvious solution to the Assault Intercessor conundrum is to treat it as a wargear option for the basic Fortis datasheet ("May replace its Bolt Rifle with Heavy Bolt Pistol and Astartes Chainsword"). That said, I dont expect we'll see integration into squads until a new codex. At best they're just going to say "you can replace <CHAPTER> with DEATHWATCH, have fun!" and call it a day.
I agree with both thoughts there.
So on non infantry models; what are our options looking like in 9th? The Blackstart looks... well, I have one and might as well test it. Dreadnoughts I assume will be our primary vehicle choice simply because its the only one that benefits from any of our abilities. Any word on dreadnought choices? I'm doing a bit of math now, but I suspect the Contemptor still beats out the Redemptor.
Mortis dreads are auto-takes. Ven-dreads are likewise going to continue to be solid. Redemptors do surprisingly well since they're hybrid units, but I havent looked too deeply at their updated cost so they might be priced out.
Razorbacks are the right combination of cost for efficacy, and as a mobile charging screen (that can shoot into the things they tag!) I suspect will get some play. Bonus points if they deliver special weapon toting Vets (which is one of the few configurations that didnt go up horrifically in points).
Remember that we still have old doctrines (for the moment), so we can keep the AP2 Assault Cannons (and other Heavy weapons) blazing away past turn 1.
Thinking about it again, different types of Kill Teams don't make any sense fluffwise... Kill Teams are suited for the mission, so there should be no additional categorization to the existing one (Old Marines or Primaris).
It looks like a Redemptor is going to cost you about the same as a quad-las Mortis Contemptor. Their points changed about the same amount, though the Redemptor went up a little more (but is also a little happier to be in melee I suppose).
The Leviathan saw a pretty hefty jump in price. Probably not worth it compared to the Contemptor anymore for most marines, but its still a pretty awesome target for our buffs.
I can’t decide if the vehicle shooting changes make hybrid dreds enough of an appeal to take them, especially combined with the change to mission scoring.
Leviathan is all shooting all the way though. It having the double heavy flamers will finally pay off a little bit.
Big news, as far as I'm concerned, is that the Xiphon looks to have taken a haircut down to 220pts.
I ran one to good effect in 8e quite a lot, and I've recently bought a second. I rate them for DW quite high and I see them having a role in our lists in the future at that price, coming in under a 10-man vet squad.
As to the solid backhanded nerf that vets got; it's brutal. A jump from 18 to 24pts for ss/sb is NOT in line with other increases, it is in fact a 33% increase. There may still be some good use to be had a single squad or so, but really I think the pivot to primaris is very real now. Plasceptors got a huge haircut too; I may get three more. Between eradicators, plasceptors and xiphons I feel I can cover my AT very well now.
The Xiphon is a nice catch. I considered them for 8th a few times, but could never make the points line up.
Something else to consider is that Cyclone Missile Launchers went down to 25. Now I dont think it's a good choice for Terminators, but for Mortis Dreadnought platforms its just cheap enough to consider as an all-rounder supplement to non quad-las configurations.
Thinking about it more, I sadly feel like vets are 100% dead at these points costs. I could stomach them at 2-3 points cheaper. But not at 20 for the cheapest I would run them. Honestly not even worth it to unlock OS bikes and terminators. 50 points more for 5 less wounds doesn’t math out. It takes your opponent making a huge mistake in target priority at that point to balance the numbers out.
Especially with the new Indomitus units, vets have no place where they excel for the points cost. Primaris are just too cheap(I expected them to have to pay for their weapons on top of the base cost). Still think leviathan is gonna be god mode, especially with all the primaris we are going to see going forward.
grouchoben wrote: Big news, as far as I'm concerned, is that the Xiphon looks to have taken a haircut down to 220pts.
I ran one to good effect in 8e quite a lot, and I've recently bought a second. I rate them for DW quite high and I see them having a role in our lists in the future at that price, coming in under a 10-man vet squad.
As to the solid backhanded nerf that vets got; it's brutal. A jump from 18 to 24pts for ss/sb is NOT in line with other increases, it is in fact a 33% increase. There may still be some good use to be had a single squad or so, but really I think the pivot to primaris is very real now. Plasceptors got a huge haircut too; I may get three more. Between eradicators, plasceptors and xiphons I feel I can cover my AT very well now.
The Xiphon seems to do Anti-Tank better, but the Blackstar isn't a completely ridiculous option anymore either.
The Corvus has worse weapons imo, but has 2 more wounds and can hover. But yeah, Xiphon is a superb AT and character killer, and its +1 to hit vs fly keyword is solid.
grouchoben wrote: The Corvus has worse weapons imo, but has 2 more wounds and can hover. But yeah, Xiphon is a superb AT and character killer, and its +1 to hit vs fly keyword is solid.
Definitely worse weapons in an AT role, but its a decent chunk cheaper as well and can reroll 1's against ground targets or... I totally forget what the Halo Launcher does now.... checked the FAQ and lets just ignore that...
In any case, I think if you want quad las, the Contemptor Mortis with a Cyclone is still probably the better pick over either.
In any case, I think if you want quad las, the Contemptor Mortis with a Cyclone is still probably the better pick over either.
At 220 points the mobility of the Xiphon makes a very strong case. Planes are death to unscreened characters, and the changes to Look Out Sir mean that just being near a pod of friends isnt a guarantee of protection. I think there may be roles for both to play.
In any case, I think if you want quad las, the Contemptor Mortis with a Cyclone is still probably the better pick over either.
At 220 points the mobility of the Xiphon makes a very strong case. Planes are death to unscreened characters, and the changes to Look Out Sir mean that just being near a pod of friends isnt a guarantee of protection. I think there may be roles for both to play.
Definitely possible. The point cost on the Xiphon is very significant and the Blackstar got a ton of sorely needed buffs. Whether it makes either truly competitive isn't something we'll know... probably ever really, but neither feels like a complete waste anymore.
Eldarain wrote: Further evidence of the great combined Astartes book rumor?
I wouldnt go that far. It's just the laziest possible implementation of GW keeping their promise to give access to the Indomitus units.
You're probably right. Just odd as they've only given us the Executioner since the original release and even some of the initial options weren't available.
I know predicting GW's actions is like reading tea leaves but an across the board inclusion is not how they've treated us.
Isn't a problem for Eradicators, and a minor inconvenience for Blade Guard and Assault Intercessors, but Outriders would have loved it.
Full agreement. Outriders, despite being pricey, are shaping up to be an excellent unit for Deathwatch even outside Fortis squads. Twin Bolt Rifle SIA plus doctrines is a terrifying concept.
Isn't a problem for Eradicators, and a minor inconvenience for Blade Guard and Assault Intercessors, but Outriders would have loved it.
Full agreement. Outriders, despite being pricey, are shaping up to be an excellent unit for Deathwatch even outside Fortis squads. Twin Bolt Rifle SIA plus doctrines is a terrifying concept.
Absolutely, just...not yet.
I do think having an Ancient is a new and cute thing.
Eldarain wrote: Further evidence of the great combined Astartes book rumor?
I wouldnt go that far. It's just the laziest possible implementation of GW keeping their promise to give access to the Indomitus units.
You're probably right. Just odd as they've only given us the Executioner since the original release and even some of the initial options weren't available.
I know predicting GW's actions is like reading tea leaves but an across the board inclusion is not how they've treated us.
Welp. Looks like we're supplement marines now folks.
Eldarain wrote: Further evidence of the great combined Astartes book rumor?
I wouldnt go that far. It's just the laziest possible implementation of GW keeping their promise to give access to the Indomitus units.
You're probably right. Just odd as they've only given us the Executioner since the original release and even some of the initial options weren't available.
I know predicting GW's actions is like reading tea leaves but an across the board inclusion is not how they've treated us.
Welp. Looks like we're supplement marines now folks.
Just as every other marine chapter Except Grey Knights...
grouchoben wrote: It's great news, on balance. We'll have access to more units and will have more competitive rules.
Indeed. As long as we keep the Kill Teams and SIA, this is a categorically good thing in my book. Just having access to the core Marine relics, WLTs and some specific units is fundamentally game changing for the brothers on the Long Watch.
Plus, it may or may not mean we can do successor Watch Companies, which is crazy fun from my perspective.
grouchoben wrote: It's great news, on balance. We'll have access to more units and will have more competitive rules.
Indeed. As long as we keep the Kill Teams and SIA, this is a categorically good thing in my book. Just having access to the core Marine relics, WLTs and some specific units is fundamentally game changing for the brothers on the Long Watch.
Plus, it may or may not mean we can do successor Watch Companies, which is crazy fun from my perspective.
There's also the possibility that they continue to limit what the supplements can bring from the codex, but we shall see...
In any case, the reported new chapter tactics are... interesting.
Meh, we spent 8 in this weird limbo of neglect. Sometimes that neglect was to our benefit, but mostly to our detriment. Expect things standardized going forward and hopefully it means we'll have less time rotting on the vine, even if we're never the ripest of the bunch.
Stormshields are 4pts
Stormbolters are 3
Basic veterans are 17
Whereas an ABR Intercessor is now 20
Oh and all kill teams lost fallback and shoot.
Edit: misread on my part, looks like they only tweaked the beginning of Vanguard/Inceptor strike not the whole ability.
I was just looking at this again. Did they actually remove the fall back and shoot from Vanguard Vets but forget to do so from Inceptors? The Vet errata says to delete the second sentence, which isn't part of the Intercessor change.
I was just looking at this again. Did they actually remove the fall back and shoot from Vanguard Vets but forget to do so from Inceptors? The Vet errata says to delete the second sentence, which isn't part of the Intercessor change.
Using the previous errata versions of the Inceptor/Vanguard ability, this edit means that Fallback and Shoot still exists. What was deleted was the way that the pseudo-fly functioned in the charge phase, which was mooted by changes to Fly and Charge in the 9th core rules. It's however super convoluted and confusing due to the different wording that ability has had over 8th and needs to be clarified because if one looks at previous versions it can be read to delete Fallback and Shoot.
I'd assume the new errata changes the text in the book and not of a previous errata that we can't reference anymore. Hard to say given the discrepancy between the Intercessors and Vets though.
LunarSol wrote: I'd assume the new errata changes the text in the book and not of a previous errata that we can't reference anymore. Hard to say given the discrepancy between the Intercessors and Vets though.
You would be incorrect in that assumption. GW have done both. It requires additional clarity that I dont expect to get until the new Codex.
So what kind of loadout are we looking to post changes for the kill teams? I'm kinda thinking one Stalker boat and a bunch of Auto Bolt units. Mildly curious if the Aggressor ends up being a liability with the 6th man penalties.
LunarSol wrote: So what kind of loadout are we looking to post changes for the kill teams? I'm kinda thinking one Stalker boat and a bunch of Auto Bolt units. Mildly curious if the Aggressor ends up being a liability with the 6th man penalties.
If you're really worried about blast, run an 8 man Intercessor plus 2 Aggressor combo and combat squad down to 5. Might even be worth doing if we get Phobos troops to be more economical on slots (those 6 in a battalion are gonna go fast with MSU Incursor/Infiltrator teams in the equation).
LunarSol wrote: So what kind of loadout are we looking to post changes for the kill teams? I'm kinda thinking one Stalker boat and a bunch of Auto Bolt units. Mildly curious if the Aggressor ends up being a liability with the 6th man penalties.
If you're really worried about blast, run an 8 man Intercessor plus 2 Aggressor combo and combat squad down to 5. Might even be worth doing if we get Phobos troops to be more economical on slots (those 6 in a battalion are gonna go fast with MSU Incursor/Infiltrator teams in the equation).
Huh.... this hadn't even crossed my mind.... I have much thinking to do. Legit thanks.
Along those lines, what are the thoughts on our HQs? I assume a Master and Smash Captain? Any value in any of the Inquisitors?
Combat squadding is one of the most useful things Deathwatch can do! :p
For inquisitors, if you want to stay fluffy ordo xenos, we don't get access to the really busted maeleus stuff (Coteaz is nuts.), but both the named xenos inquistors are fine for some phychic shinnanigins.
Personally, I'm going to be taking a barebones xenos inq just to run around and go for objectives/actions. For 60 points, they have a lot of tricks up their sleeves.
Pay a CP to give them a warlord trait and relic. Take the Xenos Refund CP on 5+ to combo with Forbidden Knowledge for a better chance of getting that CP per-round back. Take the -1 to wound relic just for a bit of extra survivability.
Take the Xenos psypower to give your inq old character targeting and scramble around capping objectives without bodyguards.
Conversely, use the inqusitor to try for physic secondaries, or other secondaries with actions (teleport becons).
You could even pay a cp to infiltrate them up the board into a hideyhole if you wanted to be extra sneaky.
If you're playing a psychic heavy army, pay an extra CP to get another deny the witch with Alpha Psyker. If you're worried about overwatch (matchup with tau?) pick Terrify as the extra flex power.
For 60pts, the little suckers can bring a lot to the table!
Malleus Inquisitor with Alpha Psyker is rocking a cast 2, deny 3, know 3 statline. I'm highly considering that for a possible Psychic secondary option on a dirt cheap chassis.
As to HQs, Watch Master is always a given, but if/when we get Phobos Watch Captains, the Vanguard WLTs are verrrrrrrry interesting.
Want a Damage 5 character sniper? It can do it.
Want to pull redeploy shenanigans with our new infiltrating lads? It can do it.
Want a front line vector for a turn 1 beacon bomb? It can do it.
Huh.... this hadn't even crossed my mind.... I have much thinking to do. Legit thanks.
As stated, combat squadding with mixed squads is an absurd tactical tool that Deathwatch are uniquely suited to use. I did it all the time in 8th, and see no reason to stop for 9th.
he' s 100 points
:(
