A reversal of the SIA Bolter Discipline ban in light of this new withering Astartes firepower era. Can even tie it to the new anti soup wording if they like
We already know that our Assault Rifles are gonna get Assault 3. The squads with Aggressors were already a decent choice, but this change makes them like SUPER dangerous and mobile.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: We already know that our Assault Rifles are gonna get Assault 3. The squads with Aggressors were already a decent choice, but this change makes them like SUPER dangerous and mobile.
And not just as a shooting threat either. With the +1 A Aggressors got, plus Shock Assault you're looking at a unit putting out eight S8 AP2 Dd3 attacks on the charge (with the nearly obligatory sarge PF).
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: We already know that our Assault Rifles are gonna get Assault 3. The squads with Aggressors were already a decent choice, but this change makes them like SUPER dangerous and mobile.
And not just as a shooting threat either. With the +1 A Aggressors got, plus Shock Assault you're looking at a unit putting out eight S8 AP2 Dd3 attacks on the charge (with the nearly obligatory sarge PF).
And let’s not forget aggressors are now 3W so that T5 Primaris unit just got a little tougher as well still using the intercessors as ablative wounds
I'm actually thinking of getting some intercessors for auto rifles and using with them aggressors and inceptor mix and match, with the extra wounds, attacks and how mobile they can be by moving and running every turn, if assaulted being able to still shoot if you pull out all carrying assault weapons.
I doubt i'd need more troop squads with three tooled out vet squads and 2 intercessor hell blaster groups and these two new squads. Just waiting to see what all shakes out from the updates when the marine codex drops.
- Real winner is our assault bolt rifle. 3 shots with an aggressor along for the ride to allow them to always advance and shoot with no penalty is really big. I and a lot of other DW players have been running 5 assualt intercessors and an aggressor for a while, and this really helps them. As does...
- 3W for aggressors and inceptors. Very nice due to the prevalence of D2 weapons.
5 ABR+4 Aggressor+1 Inceptor has been one of my staple units since the Codex. Really crazy excited for this as they're easily one of my favorite configs.
I do like that between this a Vet squad and a BR+Hellblaster units, it really feels like we can run 3 distinct and viable Kill Teams in our lists.
If the new strategems go live, Stalker Bolt Rifles can target characters, do 2 damage per shot, and do mortal wounds on 6. That is too good to pass up on intercessors.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: What's the math on that against Custodes targets? Genuinely curious.
Best case scenario (Hellfire, Watch Master Aura, compatible mission tactics, no cover, no Vexilla support, no SS) it takes a smidge over three shots to kill a single Custodian Guard.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: If the new strategems go live, Stalker Bolt Rifles can target characters, do 2 damage per shot, and do mortal wounds on 6. That is too good to pass up on intercessors.
But it's only 1 shot per model. Assault 3 Autobolters with AP-1 (Tactical Doctrine) have far more uses, ESPECIALLY if you get to use SIA and Combat Doctrines together (which is yet to be confirmed, but I'd be surprise if they don't get it since it HAS been confirmed they'll get Angels of Death via FAQ)
If you can use both, I'll that the 3 shots wounding on 2+ at AP-1 all day over the 1-shot-wonder that requires precious CPs
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: If the new strategems go live, Stalker Bolt Rifles can target characters, do 2 damage per shot, and do mortal wounds on 6. That is too good to pass up on intercessors.
But it's only 1 shot per model. Assault 3 Autobolters with AP-1 (Tactical Doctrine) have far more uses, ESPECIALLY if you get to use SIA and Combat Doctrines together (which is yet to be confirmed, but I'd be surprise if they don't get it since it HAS been confirmed they'll get Angels of Death via FAQ)
If you can use both, I'll that the 3 shots wounding on 2+ at AP-1 all day over the 1-shot-wonder that requires precious CPs
So Plasceptors. Are they now approaching auto include for us?
We're going to have access to some of the best chaff clearing T1 shots in the game with vets stepping out of Pods, and plasceptors big weakness is being easily screened out. Combine that with our limited AT options, and their +1W buff and they're starting to look mighty fine.
Galef wrote: ESPECIALLY if you get to use SIA and Combat Doctrines together (which is yet to be confirmed, but I'd be surprise if they don't get it since it HAS been confirmed they'll get Angels of Death via FAQ)
Combat Doctrines is not Part of Angels of Death. They are two different Special Rules on the same tier in the hierarchy. Angels of Death only consists of ATSKNF, Bolter Discipline and Shock Assault.
grouchoben wrote: So Plasceptors. Are they now approaching auto include for us?
We're going to have access to some of the best chaff clearing T1 shots in the game with vets stepping out of Pods, and plasceptors big weakness is being easily screened out. Combine that with our limited AT options, and their +1W buff and they're starting to look mighty fine.
Still 60 points a pop, and still exquisitely vulnerable to hit maluses. I dont know that the +1W is going to be much of a difference maker. Every gun on the board is still going to be trained on them the instant they make landfall.
Dont get me wrong, I love my plinceptors and they do serious work. If you ran em before theyre gonna be better, but I dont think its enough of a change for folks who didnt want to run them to now start running them.
I run plasma inceptors in my list and they are very good if used correctly, I drop them in with a smash captain and a big mixed kill team so everyone gets re rolls.
I've had them kill land raiders and defilers etc in one pop but they need to be positioned well which isn't always easy, and I usually suicidally drop them into a stupid location.
Chris521 wrote: Didn't even update the Chaplains or the Watch Master reroll wording. Good thing they reiterated that SIA doesn't get Bolter Discipline.
Which is stupid if they're not going to give us the new units.
Chris521 wrote: Didn't even update the Chaplains or the Watch Master reroll wording.
Yeah, thats the baffling part. Chappys are a completely redesigned unit now, but non-Codex SM armies cant take them. And dont get me started on locking DW out of the entire line of new units.
It's a bummer and no mistake. I think it's just conservative design. Leaves us leaning into SB/SS builds, and still a bit baffled about AT. Suppressors and Eliminators would have been great for DW.
It's not all bad. We benefit more than most from the changes to Gravis armor and Assault Bolters. Shock Assault makes some vet builds worth reconsidering (before realizing we should be in melee) and its not like we didn't have a little extra ground to give. We're not getting Phobos armor until they release a kit that has a modular shouldpad spot anyway.
I expect they didnt include any of the vanguard units because it requires a touch more rules writing than a simple plugin PDF, due to mixed units (and to a lesser extent, SIA). We'll probably have to wait until the next codex to get the fancy toys. (mixed phobos squads?)
Expected the absolute minimum and got it. Here's hoping we eventually get added to the supplement system. The different Astartes books being all over the place is getting really old.
McGibs wrote: I expect they didnt include any of the vanguard units because it requires a touch more rules writing than a simple plugin PDF, due to mixed units (and to a lesser extent, SIA). We'll probably have to wait until the next codex to get the fancy toys. (mixed phobos squads?)
Infantry is slightly complicated, im not disputing that. It'll likely end up being a Phobos only Fortis Kill Team datasheet.
In the interim they could have easily just added the vanilla datasheets (its not like we dont have standalone Aggressors or Inceptors or Hellblasters). Same for the vehicles. But nope, cant actually look like they did something resembling work.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
LunarSol wrote: It's not all bad. We benefit more than most from the changes to Gravis armor and Assault Bolters. Shock Assault makes some vet builds worth reconsidering (before realizing we should be in melee) and its not like we didn't have a little extra ground to give. We're not getting Phobos armor until they release a kit that has a modular shouldpad spot anyway.
Yet we already have Rievers. And while I like A3 on ABRs, without a cost effective delivery mechanism, foot slogging is still a pain (even with turbo-boosting from an Aggressor friend).
LunarSol wrote: It's not all bad. We benefit more than most from the changes to Gravis armor and Assault Bolters. Shock Assault makes some vet builds worth reconsidering (before realizing we should be in melee) and its not like we didn't have a little extra ground to give. We're not getting Phobos armor until they release a kit that has a modular shouldpad spot anyway.
Yet we already have Rievers. And while I like A3 on ABRs, without a cost effective delivery mechanism, foot slogging is still a pain (even with turbo-boosting from an Aggressor friend).
We also have a Reiver kit with modular shoulder pads.
I've not had a problem delivering 5 Assaults, 4 Aggressors and an Inceptor. Since they don't have to get to half range they cover quite a bit of board space, particularly with Kraken rounds.
Eldarain wrote: Love the "we essentially gave Codex Marines SIA with Discipline but it's way to good for you guys so here's our previous nerfing for your enjoyment"
"Oh and we can sorta get Codex Marines to replicate Kraken so you're not unique anymore!"
Yeah I don't get that, I was sure we weren't getting the new units, aside from the one I didn't care about, but why we don't get any of the other units, I figured they couldn't be bothered to think on that one.
As well, why leave the nerf for SIA in for bolter discipline when regular marines get the extra ap most all the time on lots of different guns with doctrines ? It does feel just a touch spiteful and lazy.
Had that sinking familiar feeling today as I was trying out some list building.
You know, the one you used to get with IG. You decide to build a 2-part soup list. Put in all your fave DW units. Then turn to a Phobos-themed marine battalion to support. Add more marines, trim less good stuff from the DW side. Eventually you're left with a Watchmaster, a Watchcaptain and 3 squads of vets, and that's really it.
That just comes down to your preference for Storm Shields, and hellfire rounds, and perhaps T2 DS. Everything else is now redundant.
It's really not all doom and gloom.
DW still soups really well, which marines don't get if they want their doctrines (including assassins).
DW also have far superior defensive stats over regular marines, so not concerned there.
Adding the Executioner offers good AT (at a premium though), but can be given a 5++ because of relic shield.
Shock Assault allows us to have a nice PF armed Blackshield do some work.
We also still have 21pt Thunderhammers for our characters
DW soups well because it doesn't benefit from any non-soup buffs, that's all.
I agree on toughness I suppose, but it really does depend what chapter you're talking about. My Siegebreaker IF intercessors save on 2+ and ignore -1ap, they are hench. If you want ss/sb, vets do a similar job now that their storm bolters fire at -1ap on the turn they'll be dropping in. Again, before even IF supplement drops, my vets are cheaper, ignore cover, shoot at -1 and score extra hits on 6s. Only thing missing is Hellfire.
Executioner is just too expensive imo, and the shield only works T1 if you go first, making them too swingy.
Shock assault is great, no doubt - for half the armies in the game (DW, SW, DA, BA, SMs, CSMs, TS, DG, GKs)... we're gonna be eating those extra hits as much as we're dealing them out.
Depending on how much Codex Withering Hail of Bullets affects the meta, having Storm Shields on our troops might not be that useful.
Automatically Appended Next Post: That Honoured Sergeant Ultramarine Strat is crazy. 1CP to make an Aggressor Sergeant who is moving and firing at full effect +1 damage on all his shooting and melee attacks!
Yeah, the game is going to change quite a bit over the next few months. I do think we'll eventually get a supplement rework, but that's in a year or so.
The new SM codex feels like a significant jump forward in 8th edition, and who knows, in a SM meta, maybe hellfire will have a role to play in a gatekeeper list?
With the new litany of battle, use catechism of fire on any DW dakkabots, tanks, and whatnot to maximize the pain and then stack with the doctrine strategem for +2 to wound total against just about everything.
For example, Primaris Hellblasters wound a knight on a 4+ when overcharged, with catechism of fire and Malleus doctrine strategem and mission tactics, you wound a knight on a 2+ with re-roll 1s to wound.
Better yet, Fire raptor, 24 heavy bolter shots with above mentioned combo, you now wound a knight on a 3+, in addition to 3+ to wound avenger bolt cannons, and 2+ to wound lascannons. Better yet, have a character with tomb of ectoclades and give it re-roll to wound for maximum pain. A Imperial knight will most likely die from that amount of fire power.
The new chaplain's litany of battle has added a lot of tactical flexibility to DW and stacking with Mission Tactics and Doctrine Strategems, DW can create some nasty combo more so than regular SM.
Also the raptor would have to be shooting at the nearest target for that chap buff to work, meaning the raptor and the chap would have to line up a tricky shot...
The end result of which would do 4.15 from the auto cannons, 4.55 from the las and 5.19 from the avenger. Solid numbers for sure, and it's dropped almost 14 damage on a knight. But it costs 420 for the raptor, 90 for the jump-chap and 2cp.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I do think we'll eventually get a nuchaplain, but the litanies will be specifically balanced for DW. Same with the other weirdo chapters. Just a hunch.
I’ll have to double check that there aren’t any restrictions ala the Daemon Codex, but the new SM strata generally key off of the Astartes keyword. There might be some play in a small detachment to unlock those for us to use.
Apparently Primaris KT just got much better.
According to BattleScribe one of Aggressors special rule was „Aggressors in this unit may fire twice if stayed still in the preceding movement phase“ this was changed in current FAQ to read „MODELS in this unit may fire twice“.
I dont know if this was intended (probably not) but its a BIG improvement for Deathwatch
ImPhaeronWeasel wrote: Apparently Primaris KT just got much better.
According to BattleScribe one of Aggressors special rule was „Aggressors in this unit may fire twice if stayed still in the preceding movement phase“ this was changed in current FAQ to read „MODELS in this unit may fire twice“.
I dont know if this was intended (probably not) but its a BIG improvement for Deathwatch
ImPhaeronWeasel wrote: Apparently Primaris KT just got much better.
According to BattleScribe one of Aggressors special rule was „Aggressors in this unit may fire twice if stayed still in the preceding movement phase“ this was changed in current FAQ to read „MODELS in this unit may fire twice“.
I dont know if this was intended (probably not) but its a BIG improvement for Deathwatch
Unless the DW Intercessor datasheet is updated though (and it wasnt), it wont affect DW. The Aggressor double tap comes from the mixed unit rules, not the Aggressor Datasheet.
Which also suddenly makes me question if Aggressors in Fortis teams get their additional wound or attack...
Ok strike that, brain was bring dumb. No argument on Gravis updates. Still not convinced the Aggressors in Fortis teams get the new Storm of Fire (or Riever rules for that matter).
Eldarain wrote: Intercessors have the Firestorm rule that was updated but the FAQ updated the unit Aggressors IIRC.
The update PDF calls out specific unit datasheets before it mentions associated abilities. The update to Storm of Fire is mentioned for Aggressors, not Intercessors.
Eldarain wrote: Intercessors have the Firestorm rule that was updated but the FAQ updated the unit Aggressors IIRC.
The update PDF calls out specific unit datasheets before it mentions associated abilities. The update to Storm of Fire is mentioned for Aggressors, not Intercessors.
I really do think 5 assault intercessors and an aggressor for 127pts is the best cheap troop choice we have now...
1 each inty puts 3 shots out with a maximum 36+d6 threat range
2 they are great anti horde
3 they're decent movers and obj grabbers
4 they have decent CC threat now and
5 they keep costs relatively low, making it possible to unlock double battalion for pure DW.
I think I'm going to try running 4, plus a backfield stalker/mortal wound vet team & 1 bells and whistles DS Vet team for my 6 troop choices. Only 1 unit using the DS tax, but lots of movement available, meaning 12 CPs for lots of Strats.
I’m giving Bolter inceptors a hard look now. At the new price point with the additional wound they’re shaping up as intriguing skirmisher gunships. Obviously they don’t have the range or melee capacity of the Intergressor team, but for zooming and making a general pain in the ass (and therefore drawing fire from core kill teams) they have potential.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I would seriously consider investing in the power fist option for those Sarges. 8 powerfist attack’s on the charge from each squad is not something to take lightly.
Right on both counts brother! 5- or 6-man inceptor teams are legit for their price, and they can do something very rare for the unit across the rosters: +1 to wound. I'm currently kitbashing 7 inceptors with aggressor bodies to make them look less kooky - I'm expecting to use them a lot.
It is a bit annoying that we did not get proper updates but I guess we will get a lot cleared when our new Codex eventually comes. Just need to be patient.
However, I do not believe we will get Vanguard stuff because it doesn't fit the lore. Correct me if I am wrong but the Vanguard is supposed to be the "scout" for primaris right? Deathwatch only takes proven veterans, so by that lore we should not see Vanguard anytime soon. But then it also depends if the people writing the DW know that
Vanguards are functionally an expansion on Reivers when it comes to fluff. They're just a sneaky band of Primaris battle-Brothers. No neophytes need apply.
The very fact DW got Primaris so soon is a little odd. As well if you read the new fluff for it, Gman even tasked a few fresh whole chapters of primaris marines straight to the Deathwatch to give them bodies when they were pumped out. So the Deathwatch only taking vets thing has been a little washed away as of the last book.
AngryAngel80 wrote: The very fact DW got Primaris so soon is a little odd. As well if you read the new fluff for it, Gman even tasked a few fresh whole chapters of primaris marines straight to the Deathwatch to give them bodies when they were pumped out. So the Deathwatch only taking vets thing has been a little washed away as of the last book.
We're at minimum a century past the Ultima Founding. And plenty of the Primaris walking up out of Cawl's freezer were already seasoned veterans of the Great Crusade. There's no lore disconnect.
If you say so. However, some technology is still considered un tested after a mere few hundred years in service in the IoM. As well I don't see how being in a freezer for thousands of years would somehow make them the best of the best compared to those of the time in constant state of action. If anything they'd be a bit behind the times and antiquated.
Like, I'd probably value the tactical use of someone constantly fighting eldar over someone who fought an eldar once like 10k years ago and hasn't touched one since but has been napping instead.Using Eldar as an alien race that the xeno hunting arm of the inquisition might engage. So to me, that feels like fluff disconnect to be sure.
AngryAngel80 wrote: As well I don't see how being in a freezer for thousands of years would somehow make them the best of the best compared to those of the time in constant state of action. If anything they'd be a bit behind the times and antiquated.
They were the best of the best of their kin before going into the freezer. Thats why they were sent to take up the Long Vigil, while their brothers went to the myriad Chapters.
Like, I'd probably value the tactical value of someone constantly fighting eldar over someone who fought an eldar once like 10k years ago and hasn't touched one since but has been napping instead. So to me, that feels like fluff disconnect to be sure.
Experience fighting xenos isnt a starting requirement for service in the Deathwatch. What's necessary is a level of skill, as well as capacity to learn. Thats the entire point of the Kill Team organizational structure, to impart that experience to newer inductees.
Maybe that's how you read it, I read it as they were taking the best of the best in certain areas so they could impart that knowledge on each other and teach it to others if needed. Being fine learners, while a boon to be sure, didn't seem to be why someone was chosen to head into their ranks.
As well, if they are all bad butt seasoned vets I do wonder why they have no real veteran skills over their base primaris kin, oh wait, they are all " the best ", forgot.
There's no need for a fluff fight brothers. DW already have Phobos-equipped infantry in deployment. The decision to withhold the latest units in the game is a balance-related one, as Sterling points out, and probably indicative of a future adjustment to the faction, where they'll be brought in after some consideration. Whether we'll ever get the Invictor is another question, I certainly hope so. DW was what, about 6 or 7 codexes after SM? We have a long wait before we can use them, would be my guess, but use them we will. Their absence or presence is totally unrelated to the fluff.
So sadly we’re not yet able to take Inceptors at the new price (feth you for that GW). Think I’m gonna stick with my 3x Bike, 2x Inferno Pistol VanVets as disruptor skirmish squads for now.
Did some additional reading though, and barring a new FAQ the new SM strategems will affect our lads since they let off the Astartes keyword. Trying to sort out a barebones Eliminator battalion right now to unlock those.
I can't wait for the new infantry models access. Very excited to use their tricksy abilities. The dread I can take or leave.
Yeah I'm sure their denial in the DW has something to do with how they'll interact with a kill team or if they'll be part of their own kill team just need to wait I suppose.
I expect we'll get a Phobos-variant Fortis kill team at some point combining the Infiltrator, Incursor, Eliminator and maybe Reiver models. The Invictor I'm a huge fan of, its cheap, its not the most durable thing in the world, but it cant be ignored or screened out easily.
With the advent of SM Codex 2.0, we're obviously the forgotten step-child for the foreseeable future.
But we can still do certain things ever so well:
1) 3++ on our troops is more powerful than ever, what with the spike in AP that will be generated by floods of SM armies hitting the table, and the reflexive meta changes that are sure to come.
2) T5 troops - yes it costs a lot, but we can field very punchy troops with 25 T5 wounds. These lists tend to skew due to how much the units cost (288pts for the standard 4 aggressors, inceptor and assaultercessors) but they might represent our best shot at competitive play now. It's just us and Custodes that can field T5≤ infantry armies.
3) Deepstriking dreadnoughts and infantry. We can drop 6 aggressors where 6 aggressors shouldn't be. That's not insignificant.
4) Special issue ammo is legitimately frightening to many army rosters, and can be used to wipe opposing troops from the board.
Is this enough, in your opinion, to keep us in the same league with the all-new SM threats that we're seeing emerging from the UM & WS supplements? Honest question.
Honestly ? I have no idea, we didn't get worse just vanilla marines grew up better around us. The codex creep being very real it leads to two ideas.
First, it is very real just in case anyone wondered at this point the power creep. Second being when we get our new book, we should be pretty tasty indeed but that is awhile down the road at this point.
Aside from some digression there, only time will tell. I honestly feel our lacking of options in terms of strats and just overall new stuff will cost us. We did get better with drop pods, and the better stats on some units.
The ability to have storm shields all over and access to SIA is still good even if it doesn't feel as good with the ability of marines to have that extra -1 all over the place now. Kinda makes me wonder why our vehicles can't use SIA, or we cant SIA with bolter discipline now seems punitive at this point.
Really depends I think on how good the new synergies will be vs our meat and potatoes set ups and uses as we don't have as much flash to fall back on, just quality.
I think it's going to be a rough road for awhile at the best but once the new smell fades we'll be alright though we're off the top line for awhile so I doubt you'll see people wanting to run their marines as deathwatch for the near future.
I have to say, DW still trumps SM in many ways. Not just the 2+/3++ regular kill team with termies and stormshields, also the new intercessor with the assault bolters and 2 dmg stalker bolt rifle. I have to say the 2 dmg with poison round stalker bolt rifle does work very well against the new primaris flood.
Ran 2 sqauds of 1 aggressor w/ 8 stalker bolt rifle intercessors. Dishing out 16 2 dmg -2 ap poison bullets against any high toughness non-vehicle things; mortarion, crisis suits, riptide, and nids love these poison rounds. For anti-infantry i use a souped stormshield/stormbolter kill team and leviathan with double storm cannon for lulz.
I see, i misunderstood as well, soz. I looked a the rough numbers and the stalker bolt is a very effective primaris killer.
2 squads tooled up as he describes the intercessors would kill on average 9 primaris per round of shooting (rerolling all to hit and 1's to wound with poison rounds), where assault bolters would kill 6 primaris.
The difficult choice is whether you want 16 good shots, or 48 D1 shots - there is the duality of horde control with the assault bolters to consider.
They are definitely a threat though...
edit - interestingly... if you get the assault bolt rifles within 18inches and use the minus 2 ap rounds, the body count goes up to 8 Pimaris, which is nearly as good as stalker.
Im personally not entirely sold on the new Stalker (it could entirely be my local Meta as we dont really see much W2/W4 models played), but im going into a match this week packing ten so I'm going to give them a fair shake.
Bringing in a small Marine battallion for CPs, a Burning Blade stabby cappy to play wingman to my DW Smashie, a White Scars libby for psyker artillery (bless you non-los Smite) and some scouts. If nothing else the eliminators will scare the pants off characters and help with precision fire to get the Gravis-Fortis team into drop position.
My two cents is I'm betting on the assault bolters.
My reasoning being, force multipliers. I'd rather a hail of bullets over less more potent hits taken. Couple that with the speed you can have in the squad with moving and running gives you more free mobility with the assault weapons and able to close range and use the -2 ap ammo for instance.
As well the assault bolters get you better horde clearance which can't be over looked and allows you to have more potent weapons sitting elsewhere to do the heavy work.
If we ever get access to say, suppressors or eliminators they'd help with that as well.
All in all I usually favor a storm of fire to clear problems over more dedicated and potent fire which tends to fail me more often. I wouldn't be adverse to a couple small stalker teams though pitched up and doing the lords work reaching out and touching hard squads I'll need to try them out in proxy and see how they feel.
Assault bolters sync better with aggressors, which is what really swings it for me. Fortis teams have zero long-range punch, other than intercessor shooting.
That is the best part as well. Mixed with the new assault buff and giving the sgts Pfists or the like, the mobility and synergy with the aggressors is what pushes it for me too.
The rest is more open thoughts if anyone cared as to what also factors into the decisions, for me anyways.
I kind of like the idea of 5 man stalker teams sitting back and dropping the long hard hitting shots downfield though.
grouchoben wrote: Assault bolters sync better with aggressors, which is what really swings it for me. Fortis teams have zero long-range punch, other than intercessor shooting.
Moving and firing heavies opens up some potentially interesting options. Five stalkers and an Aggressor pack a schizophrenic but useful duality of function. If you can get em to midfield objectives (preferably in terrain) they can in theory lay down the fire across most of the board, and be nasty to dislodge in melee (plus provide a potential late game melee threat).
Again Im not really sold on the concept yet, but knowing how my local meta does terrain and how some of the regulars tend to play, its a threat most dont normally have a good easy counter for. Plus it'll very likely draw fire from my backfield SPB/Missile teams hunkering down in my deployment zone. I typically run two to three bike+VV squads as my frontline Skirmishers, so the Stalkergressor teams will have time to make a statement.
AngryAngel80 wrote:
I'd say its all about what you feel the most. Though bolt rifles with hell blasters does feel a lot like an old marine tac squad.
The Interblaster team can do work, but if you're dead set on plasma I'd personally go with vets packing plasma guns instead. Yes they're more vulnerable to MWs, and have 3" less rapid fire range, but the capacity to present a 2+/3++ defensive profile cannot be overstated. Its going to be a priority target once it hits the table, and every ounce of durability counts.
Hesselhof wrote:Thx for reply and explain =)
hmm ya you are right, atm for me it is so hard to write a DW list^^
My first thougt was 2 squads 7 Stalker bolter with 1 Aggressor and 1 squad 9 auto bolt with 1 Aggressor but what to include else? storm bolter vets?
We'll have to see how the next few months play out, but based on the changes in SM 2.0 I'm leaning towards mixing Primaris and Veterans again. The ABR at Assault 3 is for all intents and purposes a storm bolter, and the Aggressor packing four power fist swings on the charge (plus gonzo shooting and unit synergy) is practically an auto-take now. A single large Gravis-based team that can hit the T5 break point, supported by smaller specialist teams is where my head is currently at.
I like to add a single inceptor to squads of assault rifle intercessors, 2 aggressors. You can even add a power fist to the intercessor sergeant. The threat of 12 powerfist attacks on the charge is a biggie. The inceptor makes charging easier and allows fallback and shoot if needed and the icing on the cake is a 17% chance of a mortal wound on the charge :-) .
Maximumbob wrote: You can even add a power fist to the intercessor sergeant. The threat of 12 powerfist attacks on the charge is a biggie.
This I think is the biggest functional change DW is seeing from the updates. For most of 8th melee has been an "yeah you can do it, but its not the best idea" situation for us (or at least for my addled brain, YMMV of course). Now, for a modest investment the bulk of a Deathwatch army can be a legitimate threat in both punchy and shooty situations.
So, out of curiosity, where are we supposed to get "primaris sgt" melee weapons? The oldboi stuff looks silly small on a primaris body. Like the villian from scary movie with the baby hands.
Has anyone seen Primaris Powerfists? I mean I could vis-mod them from a box of inceptor fists, but that looks even worse, and is not cost efficient.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So, out of curiosity, where are we supposed to get "primaris sgt" melee weapons? The oldboi stuff looks silly small on a primaris body. Like the villian from scary movie with the baby hands.
Has anyone seen Primaris Powerfists? I mean I could vis-mod them from a box of inceptor fists, but that looks even worse, and is not cost efficient.
The Imperial Fist upgrade sprue has a PF. I suspect the Iron Hands one will have one as well. Sallys will have the Thunder hammer.
Alternatively the melee weapons from the existing DW Kill Team kits are pretty size-compatible with Primaris (and much more cost-efficient to acquire). It'll take a bit of modeling work though.
I run two squads of assault intercessors, 4 aggressors and a dakkaceptor for 288pts. It's a seriously hefty cost (576pts in total) but I love that Fortis team, what can I say. With rise of bolters and marines, T5 counts for a LOT, and the squad can threaten every unit in the game. Don't be afraid to tank a D2 shot on an aggressor, as it takes 2 to down one now, and that can really blunt the damage to your chaff intercessors, if the rest of the fire incoming is S4 D1 stuff.
grouchoben wrote: I run two squads of assault intercessors, 4 aggressors and a dakkaceptor for 288pts. It's a seriously hefty cost (576pts in total) but I love that Fortis team, what can I say. With rise of bolters and marines, T5 counts for a LOT, and the squad can threaten every unit in the game. Don't be afraid to tank a D2 shot on an aggressor, as it takes 2 to down one now, and that can really blunt the damage to your chaff intercessors, if the rest of the fire incoming is S4 D1 stuff.
I ran something similar in ITC, it worked okay, but the regular killteam's stormbolter/stormshield is just too good. aggressors don't get SIA, but the T5 is pretty darn tough for infantry unit though. These days though, with knights and high str multi wound weapon flying across the board T5 is kinda alright IMO. The only issue with that make up of fortis kill team is the lack of invul save, and you are sure to attract a lot of firepower when it is on the board.
fr3ddy wrote: I ran something similar in ITC, it worked okay, but the regular killteam's stormbolter/stormshield is just too good. aggressors don't get SIA, but the T5 is pretty darn tough for infantry unit though. These days though, with knights and high str multi wound weapon flying across the board T5 is kinda alright IMO. The only issue with that make up of fortis kill team is the lack of invul save, and you are sure to attract a lot of firepower when it is on the board.
There's a breakpoint where SIA-less bolter fire, in enough numbers, is still better against a majority of the targets you'd use storm bolters against and Aggressors actually make that breakpoint.
We're talking 15 SIA shots, 24 + 4D6 bolter shots, and 6 heavy bolter shots if moving.
Against 40 Storm Bolter SIA, let's take a look assuming no other buffs, no rerolls, against the listed targets...
The number of wounds is what makes this unit more resilient than 1W 3++ models, if you run the numbers except against like 3 damage weapons. It used to be inferior in defensive capability against most things except attrition fire, but with the addition of 5 extra wounds on the unit it really cuts down the effectiveness of anti Primaris 2 damage weaponry by requiring twice as many unsaved wounds to take down a single model than it did before.
That extra wound does go a long way to durability being better, but honestly that's just icing on the cake what with the Assault 3 profile we should be more concerned with.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: That extra wound does go a long way to durability being better, but honestly that's just icing on the cake what with the Assault 3 profile we should be more concerned with.
At 24'' standard before any SIA, which is a greater effective range to play in for maximum firepower, which gives you more opportunities to actually sit in cover or on an objective.
And that's before you realize that a unit like this is also now a major melee threat. 19 Str 4 Ap - 1 damage attacks but hiding an additional 16 power fist attacks.
But that's going all in on one unit, but at sub 300 points it's not entirely "all my points". It's mobile, it's dangerous in shooting and melee, and it is difficult to remove without focus.
2 such units makes target priority a nightmare for your opponent.
3 would be half your list but an amazing mobile fire base.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: That extra wound does go a long way to durability being better, but honestly that's just icing on the cake what with the Assault 3 profile we should be more concerned with.
At 24'' standard before any SIA, which is a greater effective range to play in for maximum firepower, which gives you more opportunities to actually sit in cover or on an objective.
And that's before you realize that a unit like this is also now a major melee threat. 19 Str 4 Ap - 1 damage attacks but hiding an additional 16 power fist attacks.
But that's going all in on one unit, but at sub 300 points it's not entirely "all my points". It's mobile, it's dangerous in shooting and melee, and it is difficult to remove without focus.
2 such units makes target priority a nightmare for your opponent.
3 would be half your list but an amazing mobile fire base.
So I was thinking more along the lines of...
5 Intercessors, Assault, Sarge w/ Power Fist
5 Aggressors
You combat squad so the Sarge is with 4 Aggressors and the other squad is 4 Assault Bolt Rifles + an Aggressor.
Haven't had the chance yet, but I do play it in my local league, which is generally at a local-tournament level kind of skill and listbuilding. I'll be taking a version of it to the London GT next month.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Combat squadding, I'd go for 3/2, so at least one of the squads has a) T5 and b) a few ablative wounds. But really, the beauty of that unit is 10 primaris @T5 that can't be shut down by CC, can shoot effectively at any model with in 6"+1d6"+18", and can punch holes in heavies.
Automatically Appended Next Post: PS Great posts Lemondish, thanks! Confirms how that team has felt when running them, with actual data & breakpoints.
I'm curious to try out some new configurations with this. I've run 4 agg + 1 incep for a while and really liked it as a one off, but the question now is whether its worth taking another unit or how well it performs giving up the T5. The full boat can be pretty scary though. I've shot down tanks without any AP just due to the sheer volume of shots getting to reroll hit and wound and the +to wound strat.
Traditionally, I've really liked our kill teams because the Intercessors are cheap effective wounds to put in front of the powerful, but frail specialists. Funny now that the increased effectiveness of the bolters and third wound turns this around vs D2 weapons.
With the new bolter variants, I generally don't see why I would even bother taking my DW over just regular intercessors of variant stripes. Now with Auto-bolters being bullet hoses, Stalker Bolters being character blasters, and bolt rifles being AP happy, why would I choose DW?
I am getting sick of every new SM rule completely invalidating the most recent purchase. I am tempted to buy a bunch of Eldar bikes and see if GW nerfs them, and proves my theory.
It's really far more prevalent in the flagship factions. Eldar by their specialist nature survive the ups and downs better as long as your collection is varied.
Stormcast in AoS are insane. I'd be so annoyed if I played them. Some brutal power creep over there straight up invalidating what came before.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: With the new bolter variants, I generally don't see why I would even bother taking my DW over just regular intercessors of variant stripes. Now with Auto-bolters being bullet hoses, Stalker Bolters being character blasters, and bolt rifles being AP happy, why would I choose DW?
Mixed squads, walls of stormshields, SIA, the capacity to deep strike our army wherever we damn well please for CP, and hilarious combos with new C:SM strategems with only a minor soup investment.
Yeah, vanilla marines can do some things we cant right now. Its infuriating. But DW aint going anywhere.
I'm always on the path of cost vs effectiveness vs numbers of squads.
I like to try and make the squads effective and cheap enough I can run a few of them, I'd be very concerned to run the fortis squads too expensive.
Just using the numbers of models I have, I have 2 Interblaster fortis teams.
1 with 5 rifles and 2 hellblasters the other with 5 rifles and 3 hellblasters.
2 AutoAgro squads, both with at least 5 auto rifles and one aggressor each, but I'm thinking of tasking in inceptors and another aggressor if I have the points\ and inclination. The sgts as well will have power fists so they are definite multi role assault if needed squads.
I have also 3 vet squads with all the bells and whistles, though I do run heavy on frag cannons so they tend to hit harder than they defend each has a terminator, a biker and at least 2 storm bolter storm shield armed vets.
I may be making more storm shield and storm bolter vets as time and bits allow of course some of the options are more for mix and match and I don't run the full squads in every outting but I really love the modeling and variety for the squad set ups so having fun with all that.
Kicking around the idea of working on some small stalker squads of intercessors to deploy back and be generally annoying and maybe draw some hate from deployment in cover. Especially considering with the kraken rounds you can have them reach all the way out to 42 inch which gives them an awful long range punch, or 30 inch 3 ap, or 36 poisoned 2+ ap 1, Could prove a good objective sitting unit with that magic 2 damage to be annoying even to vehicles who don't have toughness 8.
Dont count out basic Veterans with Stalker Boltguns in the long range fire support role. Two shots instead of the Primaris Stalker's 1, but only one damage each and at base AP -1, but they can hunker down with stormshields and/or slide in missile launchers if you need an anti-armor punch.
They dont get the glory that SS/SB teams do, but they do *work*.
Currently, so long as points allow, the SS is the unsung hero that helps keep the DW at least in some parity with marines as they take leaps up on the power scale.
I think vanilla marines will be wanting to run as DW when we end up with our new book when ever that will be.
Once we get the phobos bros as well you really can make up pretty interesting squads and set up some cool stuff with the DW kill teams both old marines and primaris and I think that kind of synergy is what will keep us on power scale, options.
Edit: For me, all the varying squad set ups make the primaris interesting and provoke some thought in set ups for them with the Deathwatch at least. We just need to run our squads smarter, if we had more interesting strats that would help as well but to me the DW feel functionally solid from an equipment, cost and set up sense. They just don't have all the fun flash and sparkle of cool strats or super neat artifacts and warlord traits. Once that flash settles though, I think we may end up still being solid because while a SS and SB isn't very exciting, you don't need excitement to win games just solid tactics and point effective equipment, which we currently have.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: With the new bolter variants, I generally don't see why I would even bother taking my DW over just regular intercessors of variant stripes. Now with Auto-bolters being bullet hoses, Stalker Bolters being character blasters, and bolt rifles being AP happy, why would I choose DW?
Mixed squads, walls of stormshields, SIA, the capacity to deep strike our army wherever we damn well please for CP, and hilarious combos with new C:SM strategems with only a minor soup investment.
Yeah, vanilla marines can do some things we cant right now. Its infuriating. But DW aint going anywhere.
I keep seeing a combo with vanilla strats and dw being mentioned in this thread. I don’t have the new marine dex yet. What am I missing?
There's stratagems to make bolt rifles rapid fire 2, or autobolt rifles autohit, or one that halves the damage of any dreadnought takes. That's just off the top of my head.
Vortenger wrote: There's stratagems to make bolt rifles rapid fire 2, or autobolt rifles autohit, or one that halves the damage of any dreadnought takes. That's just off the top of my head.
They all key off the adeptus astartes keyword.
Unfortunately the bolter specific ones dont. They key off INTERCESSOR SQUAD, which Deathwatch dont have. We have INTERCESSORS. Same for Space Wolves, but not Blood Angels or Dark Angels.
Yes its dumb.
Big ones we can get are Gene Wrought Might (any hit roll of a 6+ from a primaris infantry unit automatically hits and wounds), Transhuman Physiology (any wound roll targeting an Infantry unit fails on a natural 1, 2 or 3 regardless of its strength), Honor The Chapter (yes its different from Honor Your Brothers, yes we can now fight three times with a DW unit if you want to burn 6 CP), and the Dreadnought one.
It's all good. I guarantee you its absentmindedness on GWs part rather than any kind of grand design. I only know because I thought those strats would in fact work and wanted to confirm it, only to discover the opposite. I would love 15 hellfire shots from ABR intercessors in overwatch automatically hitting. But we still get some pretty solid synergy (seriously, TP is *nutbars* on a stormshield squad).
We played Maelstrom, the mission where you get to choose your opponents objectives (they pick two, you choose one for them to keep, they reshuffle the other back into their deck). I get first turn, opponent chose pointy Dawn of War deployment map. I forward deploy with the Scouts and Eliminators to initially control ~60% of the board. Opponent counterdeploys to keep the bulk of his army away from my fire base, and does not seize. The big Fortis team and the 8-man Vet team go into deepstrike alongside Stabby Cappy (i'm hereafter refering to the melee builds as "Stabby" and "Smashy" solely because it amuses me to do so).
Turn 1:
Spoiler:
I move up my two bike teams and the two Intercessor teams to secure mid-map objectives and double screen against enemy Genestealer rush. I whif exceptionally hard in both the Psychic and Shooting phases, but manage to down one of the Maleceptors and plink away a few of the Gaunts and a 'stealer here or there. This was the first time playing many of these units for me, and I definitely didnt have optimal target allocation. Enemy moves up with everything and has an absolutely bonkers Psychic phase. Back to back super smites with maximum damage annihilate one bike team and heavily deplete one of the smaller Intercessor teams. Critically his Nuerothrope bomb fails their Smite, leaving my second line screen (at this point two Intercessors and an Aggressor) intact and protecting my heavy weapon teams. One scout team gets eaten by Genestealers on the charge, and the remaining Maleceptor finishes off the depleted Intercessor squad.
Turn 2:
Spoiler:
The charging Maleceptor opened up a seam in the enemy line I was able to exploit. My remaining bike team (practically suicidally) zooms into position to hose down the Neurothrope bomb (and ends movement ~1.5 inches from a 20-bug Genestealer unit). Smashy flies over the bugs and lines up a charge on the Neuro/Zoanthrope bomb and the enemy Broodlord. Stabby drops backfield to join the fun. Fortis team drops in to avenge the lost Scouts, and the 8-man fire team deploys to support the rush against the psyker bugs.
Psychic phase is...ok. I drop a lightning blast on the Maleceptor to get it down to 6 wounds, but fail the Smite. Not terrible, but could have been better. Did what it needed to do however...
Shooting phase. Scouts wipe out the remaing gaunts hiding in ruins on an objective (critically, denying the enemy points as it was a "hold for two turns" card he drew) Eliminators open up and take down the Malanthrope that was protecting the Thropes, Maleceptor and Genestealers. First missile team obliterates the Maleceptor (first shot went through, full damage). Second missile team shreds a Zoanthrope, critically damages another. Bike team opens up and wipes out the Genestealers they were staring down at point blank range. The remaining Stalker Intercessor team blasts massive chunks out of the Zoanthrope squad, leaving only one last bug remaining on one wound. The Fortis Drop Team winds up and absolutely massacres their targets. Rolled nearly maximum shots for the Aggressors, and they wipe out a nearly full strength 20-bug Genestealer team. ABR Intercessors take out another 12 in the last remaining enemy stealer unit.
Charge phase, bike team, Smashy and Stabby all make their charge (Imperiums Sword rerolls were absolutely clutch). Bike team downs the remaining Zoanthrope, Stabby takes out the Neurothrope, and Smashy pulverises the Brood Lord. Scored maximum points on the "kill up to 6 units" objective, and opponent conceded at that point. All he had left was Swarmlord, a heavily depleted Genestealer squad, a Malanthrope and his Ripper Swarms in reserve, and his objective cards were all unattainable.
Takeaways:
This was an ideal matchup for me. Biological enemies with very little shooting. I dont think its a fair assessment of the unit compositions I was testing, but some data with known flaws is better than no data at all.
Scout and Eliminator forward deployment was absolute gold. I had board control from the get go, which is not something Im used to with Deathwatch. Concentrated Scout bolter fire payed good dividends in opening up seams for other units to exploit. If/When we get Phobos teams with similar abilities, its going to be a fantastic asset.
Eliminator firepower was critical in softening up the enemy and denying key targets. By sniping out a single gaunt with an executioner round I denied my opponent ~4 VPs. That was *massive*. They also downed the Malanthrope shrouding the bulk of the enemy army, letting the SIA do its job.
Stabby did alright, but I was hoping to get more out of him. That had far more to do with how hyper-lethal my second shooting phase was though. He simply didnt have that much left to deal with (though he did unquestioningly put the enemy Neurothrope on its back with zero room for debate).
The Fortis drop was terrifying. That squad cleared half the table by itself.
Stalker Intercessor teams didnt get much chance to acquit themselves, but blasting two wound chunks out of big monsters did add up. They're gonna need more testing before I can weigh them against ABR teams. I suspect they will have a role to play in the new arsenal, but time will tell.
All told, a good first result, but a lot more testing is going to be needed. Have a game against a full blown Speed Freaks Ork army lined up for next week, and going to try to catch a game against a Silver Tide Necron player too if I can.
Obligatory glory shot of the 8-man team after their drop to pour fire into some Genestealers (warning, big format):
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So, out of curiosity, where are we supposed to get "primaris sgt" melee weapons? The oldboi stuff looks silly small on a primaris body. Like the villian from scary movie with the baby hands.
Has anyone seen Primaris Powerfists? I mean I could vis-mod them from a box of inceptor fists, but that looks even worse, and is not cost efficient.
I used the one from the BaC (mk. IV) box
Spoiler:
I’ve used relic blades from the VV box and ravenwing accessory sprue, as well as terminator arm/swords you give my sarges swords.
Spoiler:
All the Ultras are conversions from the DI box, Deathwatch from the full kit.
Grey knights. Long swords with big I's on them sized for primaris.
Opinion: a regular power sword is fine. The gladius was standard issue when Alexander conquered a small empire somewhere. A DW power sword on primaris looks the part.
Vortenger wrote: Grey knights. Long swords with big I's on them sized for primaris.
Opinion: a regular power sword is fine. The gladius was standard issue when Alexander conquered a small empire somewhere. A DW power sword on primaris looks the part.
I did that for a primaris captain, the Deathwatch sword looks great on him, really cool gladius feel. Feels more proper somehow, for close encounters. Though honestly the mini marine weapons don't look bad on the primaris for my eyes, the guns look off because of how upsized primaris guns are but the CCW feel about right to me.
Is it cheaper to just buy them on FW or only buy the weapons on FW and the plastic kit from GW (or ebay)
Get the plastic kit. Then find a friend (or favorite bits provider) who plays AdMech and get the twin-las bits from the Ironstrider/Dragoon kit. Convert to your heart's desire.
It's all good. I guarantee you its absentmindedness on GWs part rather than any kind of grand design. I only know because I thought those strats would in fact work and wanted to confirm it, only to discover the opposite. I would love 15 hellfire shots from ABR intercessors in overwatch automatically hitting. But we still get some pretty solid synergy (seriously, TP is *nutbars* on a stormshield squad).
I think the auto hitting Stratagem only works in the shooting phase :(
Elfric wrote:Does a Deathwatch Chaplain have access to that new relic crozius?
I dont believe so.
Hesselhof wrote:
is it possible to use stratagems from the new SM codex to DW, if the keyword effects ASTARTES?
Yes.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
grouchoben wrote: So what are people thinking, a Dark Angels Libby and some scouts in a patrol for -1hit Aversion, and unlocking TH Physiognomy?
If you're looking for utility psykers, I think the White Scars discipline is the best of the bunch right now. They can speed up your units, slow down your enemies units, blam things for MW out of LoS, deny overwatch, and more.
The only powers that require <chapter> are the buffs (and given how spicy of a beatstick you can make with successor rules and WSWL traits / strats, you're gonna want the option). All the rest are targetable on your opponent.
Well that was a short-lived discussion! New SMFAQ confirms that DW units cannot use SM Stratagems even if the list contains a SM detachment. Guess they really don't want us having transhuman physiognomy!
Ah well, never mind. I take it as a good sign that there's something in the pipeline for us ...
DW Chaplain Dreads get litanies (and they also keep their old +1strength aura). I was already taking one before because character dreads are clutch, but now... oo boy.
Thinking the +1s +1a +1d self buff for a truly terrifying smashnought. 6x WS2 Str 16 -3Ap 4D attacks will flatten anything.
Or combine the +1 to wound buff with big intergressor squads and the +1 to wound strat to chew through any target you can sprint up to.
Sad to see the strats get book locked, but so it goes. Litany Chappy dread is certainly one to keep an eye on.
They did fix their hilariously bungled Aggressor/Reiver update though. Terror troops is back to being squad wide, and it stacks to the standard -3. Perma-double tapping Aggressors in Overwatch also makes big Fortis teams a daunting proposition to charge.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Presented without comment, from the Non-Codex Marines Eratta document:
Combat Doctrines is a new ability exclusive to Codex: Space Marines – units in Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves and Deathwatch Detachments (or in Detachments of any of their successor Chapters) cannot currently make use of this ability.
It'll be gone as a loophole soon enough, so I wouldn't jump on it. If GW want new Chaplains to be Codex compliant only, then they will be. Mind you, I rate Chaplain dreads anyway...
Well, Deathwatch will do alright regardless sucks to have the strats book locked the sadness fills me more. However do you really think that hints to us getting a new book soonish ? I don't know with all the stuff on the horizon we may just be left out in the cold for a relatively long time.
The funny thing is, in germany it´s kinda meta, to play 3 termis with cyclone in killteams XD (not really meta but there some list´s like this killteams)
Full reroll? only missed you mean? o.O or is there an FAQ i missed?
Nah, we're still stuck with the borked rerolls. Its just how i shorthand differentiate between Master (full rerolls) and Captain (reroll 1s) auras.
Hesselhof wrote: The funny thing is, in germany it´s kinda meta, to play 3 termis with cyclone in killteams XD (not really meta but there some list´s like this killteams)
If you can keep them in cover and screened out from melee they can do work for sure. But...oof. I play on tables with a lot of terrain and its damn hard to keep 10-mans hunkered down. I'd personally drop the twin CC battalion and see if you can squeeze in another combat squad bike/VV team. Those are gold.
I cuted the third termi with cyclone in eacht team for an normal for more tankiness i will defenetly do a test game i wan´t to know if its work^^ otherwise i gues it´s a funny list lol^^
Sounds like they updated the errata to fix it. Didn’t even manage to get a single game in with one. Oh well.
I am, however, coming around on the Stalkergressor team (5x Intercessors w/ Stalkers, 1x Aggressor). Second game in a row where they locked down my midfield, soaked a ton of fire and blasted chunks out of big things (plus the Aggressors did work on scarab hordes). It’s still early, but I’m definitely keeping them as an option moving forward.
Again, Maelstrom, this time Tactical Cascade. Win first turn, opponent chooses Dawn of War deployment zones. Forward deploy the scouts out of LoS, Eliminator teams hunkered down as well but within range of the enemy with their rifles. Missile/Rifle teams take up second floor perches to cover most of the board. Intergressors, Smashy, Libby and Bike teams deploy on the line. Opponent counterdeploys with the bulk of his forces behind LoS blockers, but leaves his DDAs and Destroyers visible One DDA with the Heavy Destroyers on a corner hill.
Turn 1:
Spoiler:
Leapfrog the bike teams into midfield LoS blocking ruins with the intention of forcing his DDAs to come off their perches if they want to engage. Stalkergressors take up position to support a Scout team in the center of the map, and get shooting lanes on both Destroyers and Wraiths. Smashy and Libby Manage to down two Destroyers and three Wraiths in shooting. Libby calls down the lightning for a mortal wound on the C'tan, but crucially gets off the "you cant advance, and you only roll 1d6 for a charge" power on the same target, leaving it stranded just outside the center ruins. Crucially, the Eliminators down both Crypteks with non-LoS fire. Opponent succesfully resurrects one, but crucially it wasnt the one with the Invuln aura. Scarabs screening the C'tan scrag their charge role, and dont make it to my Scouts turn 1. One DDA moves forward to hose down the Stalkergressors, but rolls horrifically. C'tan sprinkles a few mortal wounds across midfield teams, but nothing too bad (Primaris capacity to eat d3 mortal wound hits is awesome when all you're used to is Vets). Shooting from the DDAs mostly plinks off Storm Shields on the missile teams, but does whittle away at one of the Stalkergressor units. Wraiths make their charge against a bike team, but the VanVet shields hold, and I kill one Wraith on the counter charge
Turn 2:
Spoiler:
Stabby drops behind the DDA/Heavy Destroyer formation. Bike team moves up to point blank range in support, and melts two heavies with Inferno pistols. Libby again bogs down the C'tan, but doesnt pull of Lightning Call. Fortis Team drops out of deepstrike and liquefies the advancing DDA. Plasma Kill Team whittles off a few wounds from the stationary DDA and locks down an objective. Stalkergressors, Scouts and Bikes combine to badly maul the Wraiths. Stabby and Smashy go in, and get gak done. Stabby accounts for most of a DDA, the resurrected Crypetk, and the last Heavy Destroyer by himself. Smashy knocks the C'Tan down to one wound, but gets killed on the counterswing so I have him go down swinging and pulverize the C'tan. Scarabs make it to the Scouts, but the mini-lads hold their ground, and with ObSec keep that objective. Wraiths again bounce off the shields of the bike team. Tesla Immortals move up and hose down the Vet team, but the Terminator makes ~18 saves before going down, and the rest ping harmlessly off of 3+s. Destroyers move up to take on the Fortis team, but only manage to down two Intercessors.
Turn 3:
Spoiler:
Left side Bike team makes it to second floor ruins to pour enfillading fire down on one pod of Tesla Immortals, while the Vet team moves in to provide high AP support plasma fire. Third Scout team jumps out of the ruin theyd been hiding in all game to secure the objective the Vet team vacates. Fortis team moves up and finishes off the Destroyers while the Eliminators sprinkle wounds everywhere. Wraiths go down to Scout bolters. Right side Bike team makes a mad dash across the table and makes it inside the ruin the Warriors had been hunkering in. Libby knocks the smite out of the park, and with the help of supporting fire from an Aggressor clears the scarabs out of the center objective. Bike and Vet teams open up, and when the dust settles all that is left is Imhotek and a squad of Immortals. Opponent concedes at this point.
Takeaways:
Less optimal matchup than last time, but much closer to a "real world" scenario. Had multiple vees to deal with, and Quantum Shielding is always a bitch and a half.
Eliminators were without question MVPs again. Knocking down resurrection protocol support, Invuln save support and redeploy support took the enemy off at the knees from the opening salvo. Stalkers again pulled their weight surprisingly well, both in chunking biker equivalents, but also in punching hunkered infantry out of cover (Warlord was running with Nowhere to Hide tonight, and that turned what would normally be a 2+ Immortal base save into a flat 5+ for the Stalkers). Stabby did muuuuuch better for himself this week. He folded the enemy left flank all by himself, freeing up my flanking bike team to hit the entrenched Immortals hard.
Libby's understated contribution of bogging down the enemy's main melee and mortal wound threat did not go unnoticed. That C'Tan is usually my number one issue as it throws mortals out like nobody's business.
So a real quick question with the most recent FAQs does that change now how the aggressors work with our fortis teams now ? I only glanced over it so I'm just checking for the cause as I just got some Aggressors for my ABR teams
AngryAngel80 wrote: So a real quick question with the most recent FAQs does that change now how the aggressors work with our fortis teams now ? I only glanced over it so I'm just checking for the cause as I just got some Aggressors for my ABR teams
Agressors shoot twice if they stand still - the shooting twice thing only applies to them either in a killteam or in an agressor squad. The killteam buff from agressors is moving and firing with no penalty. No other models get the shoot twice ability.
The FAQ allowed the new versions of their abilities to work with Fortis Kill teams. Previously, because of the shoddy wording, Fortis squads were stuck with the pre-C:SM 2.0 functionality
Sterling191 wrote: The FAQ allowed the new versions of their abilities to work with Fortis Kill teams. Previously, because of the shoddy wording, Fortis squads were stuck with the pre-C:SM 2.0 functionality
There's a concerning argument I've seen used that you might have to deal with in games against particularly competitive types. The change to these abilities now applies to the keyword, but the Intercessors unit doesn't gain the Aggressors or Reiver keyword. Don't fret - there's no reason to worry about this outside of a tournament (where somebody absolutely will try to pull this gak).
Because it's a bonkers limitation to even contemplate I wouldn't worry about it. Intention could not be more clear. After all, you don't put rules in a data sheet that can't ever be used. Just be aware somebody might want to rule lawyer away those abilities for you - don't let 'em
Sterling191 wrote: The FAQ allowed the new versions of their abilities to work with Fortis Kill teams. Previously, because of the shoddy wording, Fortis squads were stuck with the pre-C:SM 2.0 functionality
There's a concerning argument I've seen used that you might have to deal with in games against particularly competitive types. The change to these abilities now applies to the keyword, but the Intercessors unit doesn't gain the Aggressors or Reiver keyword. Don't fret - there's no reason to worry about this outside of a tournament (where somebody absolutely will try to pull this gak).
Because it's a bonkers limitation to even contemplate I wouldn't worry about it. Intention could not be more clear. After all, you don't put rules in a data sheet that can't ever be used. Just be aware somebody might want to rule lawyer away those abilities for you - don't let 'em
The FAQ actually deals with this. The new wording keys off of both keywords and the individual model names.
Intercessors (Deathwatch), Terror Troops Change this ability to read: ‘Whilst any Reiver units or units which contain any Reiver models from your army are within 3" of any enemy units, subtract 1 from the Leadership characteristic of each of those enemy units for each Reiver unit or unit which contains any Reiver models from your army that is within 3" of that enemy unit (to a maximum of -3).’
Intercessors (Deathwatch), Fire Storm Change this ability to read: ‘When this unit fires Overwatch or is chosen to shoot with, Aggressor models in this unit can shoot twice if this unit did not move this turn.’
Any thoughts on the following unit(s) since the FAQ:
A) 5 ABR Intercessors w/ Power Fist Sgt, 1 Flamestorm Aggressor & 1 Plasma Inceptor
Or B) 6 ABR Intercessor w/ 2 Aggressors & 2 Inceptors. Combat Squad for 3/1/1 in each unit
What I like about unit A is that the Aggressor & Inceptor bonuses affect more models. And with Shock assault, you get 8 Power fist attacks most of the time (Aggressor + Sgt)
What I like about unit B is that each unit gets to T5 sooner by only losing 1 Intercessor. And if taking multiples of this combo means you get more Aggressors & Inceptors (1 of each per 3 Intercessors, rather than only 1 per 5)
With both Aggressors & Inceptors getting +1W, that gives the units a bit of staying power and ABRs being 3 shots gets quite a bit of bang for your buck.
At first I was liking unit B, but the more I think on it, unit A seems better
Flamestorms are a hard pass. Plinceptors are ok, but an ABR/Aggresor team is built to move and will more often than not be out of reroll auras, so no overcharging.
Second squad is putting a lot of points in for limited benefit. You're one gravis model away from hitting the T5 threshold, and you *really* dont want to bump ~140 points of Gravis lads down to T4 just to do combat squad silliness. There are better options for that (BIKES).
Sterling191 wrote: Flamestorms are a hard pass. Plinceptors are ok, but an ABR/Aggresor team is built to move and will more often than not be out of reroll auras, so no overcharging.
Second squad is putting a lot of points in for limited benefit. You're one gravis model away from hitting the T5 threshold, and you *really* dont want to bump ~140 points of Gravis lads down to T4 just to do combat squad silliness. There are better options for that (BIKES).
BIKES aren't allowing in Primaris units, but I see what you mean. Agree on the combat squad bit. I really like the idea of it, but it just doesn't seem to benefit the unit as much as just adding 1Agg/1Inceptor to a unit of 5 Intercessors.
But why are Flamstorms a "hard pass". The Bolt storm gauntlets are the hard pass IMO, because they do not get SIA. Granted, neither do the Flamestorms, but they do 26d auto-hits, which is more that 6-d6 shots from the Bolts. And having 5 ABRs with SIA should fill the range Dakka need for the unit. The Flamers just offer something the unit doesn't get elsewhere. Combined with the Inceptor, you can charge a unit, and next turn fall back and flame them, then be a charge deterrent since the 1 Aggressor would get 4d6 auto-hits in Overwatch.
Overall, I'm looking for a Primaris loadout that is an all-rounder to build the list around. I know TACs isn't the best approach for Marines competitively, but it's fluffy and I think DW Primaris come as close to standard "Movie-Marines" as you can get.
BIKES aren't allowing in Primaris units, but I see what you mean.
Agree on the combat squad bit. I really like the idea of it, but it just doesn't seem to benefit the unit as much as just adding 1Agg/1Inceptor to a unit of 5 Intercessors.
But why are Flamstorms a "hard pass". The Bolt storm gauntlets are the hard pass IMO, because they do not get SIA. Granted, neither do the Flamestorms, but they do 26d auto-hits, which is more that 6-d6 shots from the Bolts. And having 5 ABRs with SIA should fill the Dakka need for the unit. The Flamers just offer something the unit doesn't get elsewhere.
Combined with the Inceptor, you can charge a unit, fall back and flame them, then be a charge deterrent since the 1 Aggressor would get 4d6 auto-hits in Overwatch.
Overall, I'm looking for a Primaris loadout that is an all-rounder to build the list around. I know TACs isn't the best approach for Marines competitively, but it's fluffy and I think DW Primaris come as close to standard "Movie-Marines" as you can get.
-
Aggressors dont need SIA to murderize things (they would legitimately be broken if they had access to it). Weight of dice (and carefully applied +1 to wound stratagems) do the work. They also have a range bracket that means they can actually contribute to their squad after things like Beacon shunts or teleport strikes. Furthermore, Aggressor fists are their own charge deterrent for all but the most committed melee specialists. You do *not* want to eat 16 punches and 4 powerfists from an almost MSU team.
If you want an "all-rounder" Fortis unit, go 5x ABR +1 Bolter Aggressor. If you're dead set on combat squadding down to 5 man teams, go 6x ABR, 2x Reiver, 2x Bolter Aggressor and take an even 3/1/1 split.
But...Inceptors.....Plasma....fall back and shoot.....
These are not good things?
Also, I am commited to the Flamstorm guntlets because those are the affordable easy-build option I already own. I get what you are saying about the Bolts from a purely competitive sense, but for me, there are real-world things to consider and the Flamers are good enough AND FUN (Bolts are boring), that I'm willing to drop a smidge of competitiveness for them
Galef wrote: But...Inceptors.....Plasma....fall back and shoot.....
These are not good things?
-
They are. They're just not worth what Primaris pay for them in a standalone unit that outruns its support auras. The reason VanVets and Bikes are easy to slot into Vet teams is because they're roughly comparable in price to the Veterans themselves after accounting for wargear. Gravis lads clock in at 2-3x or more their Intercessor brethren. For cheap squads like you're trying to run, thats not a premium worth paying.
Versatility is nice, but its also a bit of a trap.
BIKES aren't allowing in Primaris units, but I see what you mean.
Agree on the combat squad bit. I really like the idea of it, but it just doesn't seem to benefit the unit as much as just adding 1Agg/1Inceptor to a unit of 5 Intercessors.
But why are Flamstorms a "hard pass". The Bolt storm gauntlets are the hard pass IMO, because they do not get SIA. Granted, neither do the Flamestorms, but they do 26d auto-hits, which is more that 6-d6 shots from the Bolts. And having 5 ABRs with SIA should fill the Dakka need for the unit. The Flamers just offer something the unit doesn't get elsewhere.
Combined with the Inceptor, you can charge a unit, fall back and flame them, then be a charge deterrent since the 1 Aggressor would get 4d6 auto-hits in Overwatch.
Overall, I'm looking for a Primaris loadout that is an all-rounder to build the list around. I know TACs isn't the best approach for Marines competitively, but it's fluffy and I think DW Primaris come as close to standard "Movie-Marines" as you can get.
-
Aggressors dont need SIA to murderize things (they would legitimately be broken if they had access to it). Weight of dice (and carefully applied +1 to wound stratagems) do the work. They also have a range bracket that means they can actually contribute to their squad after things like Beacon shunts or teleport strikes. Furthermore, Aggressor fists are their own charge deterrent for all but the most committed melee specialists. You do *not* want to eat 16 punches and 4 powerfists from an almost MSU team.
If you want an "all-rounder" Fortis unit, go 5x ABR +1 Bolter Aggressor. If you're dead set on combat squadding down to 5 man teams, go 6x ABR, 2x Reiver, 2x Bolter Aggressor and take an even 3/1/1 split.
Why in the world would you take Reivers? An extra shot is MUCH better than the stupid grenade or morale stuff.
How do you figure? Nothing for morale really matters in the first place, and several armies do that stacking a LOT better.
Forcing CP burns, causing vee squadrons to run, adding synergy to abilities and psyker powers that key off leadership. It's well worth the one point and one bullet investment.
How do you figure? Nothing for morale really matters in the first place, and several armies do that stacking a LOT better.
Forcing CP burns, causing vee squadrons to run, adding synergy to abilities and psyker powers that key off leadership. It's well worth the one point and one bullet investment.
You're not serious are you? For a shooting squad it's a terrible investment, especially when they don't have the weight of attacks for the price even WITH Shock Assault.
You're not serious are you? For a shooting squad it's a terrible investment, especially when they don't have the weight of attacks for the price even WITH Shock Assault.
It really isnt. Leadership shenanigans dont require a charge, and the combat squads put out 13/12 attacks plus four powerfists apiece at 114 points should you elect to go in. But you're more than welcome to continue to declare as such.
Have to agree with Slayer on this. Stacking or not, Morale shenanigans only work for Aeldari, who can get multiple units where they need to be to work. But getting multiple 6"M Infantry near a unit that cares about Morale? That's pretty situational. Great if you can get it to work, but hardly worth building your army around.
The only "Reivers" I'll have in my squads will be the Powerfist Sgts because I like the look of the Reiver armour with a PF modeled on, but they will still be Intercessor where rules are concerned
Galef wrote: Have to agree with Slayer on this. Stacking or not, Morale shenanigans only work for Aeldari, who can get multiple units where they need to be to work.
But getting multiple 6"M Infantry near a unit that cares about Morale? That's pretty situational. Great if you can get it to work, but hardly worth building your army around.
The only "Reivers" I'll have in my squads will be the Powerfist Sgts because I like the look of the Reiver armour with a PF modeled on, but they will still be Intercessor where rules are concerned
-
Who said anything about building an army around it? Its a literal 1 point per model investment on maybe two units.
It's more than a 1pt investment, since Reivers do not take the place on an Intercessor. It's a full 20pt addition (with Carbine) to the unit with 1 less shot than just adding another ABR Intercessor (which you wouldn't do anyway if making an MSU squad)
Galef wrote: It's more than a 1pt investment, since Reivers do not take the place on an Intercessor. It's a full 20pt addition (with Carbine) to the unit has 1 less shot than just adding another ABR Intercessor (which you wouldn't do anyway if making an MSU squad)
Galef wrote: It's more than a 1pt investment, since Reivers do not take the place on an Intercessor. It's a full 20pt addition (with Carbine) to the unit has 1 less shot than just adding another ABR Intercessor (which you wouldn't do anyway if making an MSU squad)
-
I was gonna say that.
Ya know what, I had to read back a few posts, but I think this is what he is referring to:
Sterling191 wrote: If you're dead set on combat squadding down to 5 man teams, go 6x ABR, 2x Reiver, 2x Bolter Aggressor and take an even 3/1/1 split.
Which I guess makes some sense, but I'd still rather take 8 ABR Intercessors + 2 Aggressors for a 4/1 split in each unit
It doesn't even make sense for that because the effective range for the squad won't work with the Reiver abilities. It's literally spending a point for a less effective unit.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: It doesn't even make sense for that because the effective range for the squad won't work with the Reiver abilities. It's literally spending a point for a less effective unit.
The entire unit inherits the Reiver aura. Its not rocket science. But hey, please continue to have a cow over 1 point and 1 SIA attack.
Galef wrote: It's more than a 1pt investment, since Reivers do not take the place on an Intercessor. It's a full 20pt addition (with Carbine) to the unit with 1 less shot than just adding another ABR Intercessor (which you wouldn't do anyway if making an MSU squad)
-
Not if you're combat squadding (which you'll note is the ONLY situation I'm suggesting this for). 5x ABR Intercessors plus an Aggressor is 132 points. Squadded down 5-pack is 114.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Galef wrote: Which I guess makes some sense, but I'd still rather take 8 ABR Intercessors + 2 Aggressors for a 4/1 split in each unit
-
Which is entirely your choice to not take a tool available to you. Just like you're not using a tool when you take flamer aggressors instead of bolter aggressors.
And it doesn't matter if the unit gets the aura. Regular Reivers are useless and got the aura, AND they have more means to get into range to use that and their grenade.
Nobody is clamoring towards them for a reason. It's a bad idea, period, especially with the lost extra shot.
Regarding the Inceptors in the unit: Does it change your opinion if there is a Jump Captain escorting 2/3 such units?
Part of my plan is to have 2 units with ABR Intercessors, 1 Agg, 1 Inceptor advancing forward and another Intercessor unit with Bolt Rifles being "Shunted" forward from the Jump Captain's Beacon.
By doing this, all units will certainly be within 6" of the Jump Captian to reroll 1s, if not also in range of my WatchMaster (who may also be Advancing to keep pace)
Galef wrote: Regarding the Inceptors in the unit: Does it change your opinion if there is a Jump Captain escorting 2/3 such units?
For clarity, we talking Plinceptors for killyness, or Boltceptors for mobility shenanigans? They're very divergent uses and I want to make sure I'm speaking to what you're specifically asking.
Galef wrote: Regarding the Inceptors in the unit: Does it change your opinion if there is a Jump Captain escorting 2/3 such units?
For clarity, we talking Plinceptors for killyness, or Boltceptors for mobility shenanigans? They're very divergent uses and I want to make sure I'm speaking to what you're specifically asking.
Sorry, Plasma. In addition to giving the unit Fall back & Shoot, I want the killyness. That's why I will either have them escorted by a Jump Captain until he gets to combat, or string them back to the Watch Master
Galef wrote: Sorry, Plasma. In addition to giving the unit Fall back & Shoot, I want the killyness. That's why I will either have them escorted by a Jump Captain until he gets to combat, or string them back to the Watch Master
-
S'all good.
If you want killyness, they need to be their own squad, or stacked 2-3 at a time in Fortis teams coming out of deep strike. Sprinkling a few here or there only succeeds in getting expensive bullet catchers killed quickly. Any competent opponent immediately singles out plasma inceptors for priority termination, and if they're waddling up field (even at a M6-11" pace) they're gonna get massacred. Furthermore, you're giving up Doctrine synergy by spreading them out. Cracking T8 is hard enough as it is without diluting one of our few sources of S8 firepower.
Galef wrote: Regarding the Inceptors in the unit: Does it change your opinion if there is a Jump Captain escorting 2/3 such units?
For clarity, we talking Plinceptors for killyness, or Boltceptors for mobility shenanigans? They're very divergent uses and I want to make sure I'm speaking to what you're specifically asking.
Sorry, Plasma. In addition to giving the unit Fall back & Shoot, I want the killyness. That's why I will either have them escorted by a Jump Captain until he gets to combat, or string them back to the Watch Master
-
If you're using Inceptors as pseudo-FLY on your Fortis, I'd probably stick to Bolt. Don't want to fry yourself overcharging.
Conveniently my Inceptors are the Easy-build, so came with Bolt, albeit I've painted them as Plasma (glowing blue-green in select places and swapped out the barrel). I might try the Bolt versions, but it's a shame they don't get the Combat Doctrine AP bonus
Galef wrote: Conveniently my Inceptors are the Easy-build, so came with Bolt, albeit I've painted them as Plasma (glowing blue-green in select places and swapped out the barrel).
I might try the Bolt versions, but it's a shame they don't get the Combat Doctrine AP bonus
Honestly, DW balanced around needing to take pure DW to get the -1 AP would probably struggle compared to DW that can soup. Our stuff is just too expensive and CP hungry to fuel itself.
And it doesn't matter if the unit gets the aura. Regular Reivers are useless and got the aura, AND they have more means to get into range to use that and their grenade.
Nobody is clamoring towards them for a reason. It's a bad idea, period, especially with the lost extra shot.
I have never seen somebody so enamored with a single SIA bolter shot.
I'll take the utility over the single bolter shot because not a single one of my games has ever, in any edition, at any time, in any scenario, ever come down to one extra bolter shot.
But I can name two where the LD stacking and the grenade, especially for a bully unit like this, made a difference.
And it doesn't matter if the unit gets the aura. Regular Reivers are useless and got the aura, AND they have more means to get into range to use that and their grenade.
Nobody is clamoring towards them for a reason. It's a bad idea, period, especially with the lost extra shot.
I have never seen somebody so enamored with a single SIA bolter shot.
I'll take the utility over the single bolter shot because not a single one of my games has ever, in any edition, at any time, in any scenario, ever come down to one extra bolter shot.
But I can name two where the LD stacking and the grenade, especially for a bully unit like this, made a difference.
Honestly you play bad opponents then. Anything regarding LD sucks this edition and frankly always has. OR would you argue Fear had uses in last edition hahahaha
Aggressors will be everywhere soon. Shutting down their overwatch, in some scenarios, is worth a lot more than a point. I see the case for a single Reiver, even if I'll rarely use one. Honestly, combat squadding is of limited interest to me, as I like to run pure DW, and that means double battalions, and that means 6 troop slots to fill, and that means why would I comba squad?
I think the classic 3 bike/2 VV and fire-team split is the only one I use...
grouchoben wrote: Honestly, combat squadding is of limited interest to me, as I like to run pure DW, and that means double battalions, and that means 6 troop slots to fill, and that means why would I comba squad?
I think the classic 3 bike/2 VV and fire-team split is the only one I use...
Agreed. Combat squadding is generally not something I would recommend for Fortis teams as you really dont gain much, but if you're gonna do it, it's a means to put another tool in the kit that you couldnt bring in a normal 5 or 6 man team without giving up significant capacity.
My personal sweet-spot in a kill team is 5 ABR intercessors, 2 Aggressors, and an inceptor. Sargent with a PF.
15 SIA shots at 24", 12+2D6 aggressors (X2 stationary), 6 S5 AP-1. Fall back and shoot, move, advance and shoot with no penalty. Coupled with 12 PF attacks in melee.
Struggling to find a better balance for my playstyle.
Maximumbob wrote: My personal sweet-spot in a kill team is 5 ABR intercessors, 2 Aggressors, and an inceptor. Sargent with a PF.
15 SIA shots at 24", 12+2D6 aggressors (X2 stationary), 6 S5 AP-1. Fall back and shoot, move, advance and shoot with no penalty. Coupled with 12 PF attacks in melee.
Struggling to find a better balance for my playstyle.
That's about where I'm at. It's just really tempting to get up to T5.
I want to include reivers, but I can't really justify doing so.
Pods deny the use of two of our most important Kill Team components: VanVets and Termies. Amusingly though they can fit Bikes because WTFGW. They're still a pass for me, even on T1.
Sterling191 wrote: Pods deny the use of two of our most important Kill Team components: VanVets and Termies. Amusingly though they can fit Bikes because WTFGW. They're still a pass for me, even on T1.
Cool, thanx for not answering my question, which was "if you HAD to use one, how would you load out the Vet squad?", not "Are DP worth taking?"
If you HAD to bring 1 or more, how would you kit out a Vet squad to use it?
Storm bolters. It costs about as much as the termies, *but* you the droppod itself is pretty durable and being able to roadblock (and chew through) a giant blob of cultists or gaunts has value. Oldmarines still have a cost problem when you try to kit them out for the very fancy stuff, but stormbolters are cheap and can overwhelm anything with a greater than 4+ armor save.
It used to be a good idea to drop a plasma squad, but I'd rather spend the point on Hellblasters and just nail the same target from greater than 24 inches away.
Emphasis mine. You asked two question. I answered the one I felt qualified to respond to. I won't take pods, so I'm not going to give you erroneous info on what to put in them. If you want me to bs you, I'm more than happy to do so.
Emphasis mine. You asked two question. I answered the one I felt qualified to respond to. I won't take pods, so I'm not going to give you erroneous info on what to put in them. If you want me to bs you, I'm more than happy to do so.
That's fair. I was just hoping for something more than a shut-down. I'm always brainstorming ways to buy more models and with DPs being useful, even empty, I was giving them some thought.
Heck, I may even just use 1 to drop in my Watch Master to be close to my Intercessors
Galef wrote: I'm always brainstorming ways to buy more models and with DPs being useful, even empty, I was giving them some thought.
Heck, I may even just use 1 to drop in my Watch Master to be close to my Intercessors
There's absolutely nothing wrong with that mate. Sometimes the cons outweigh the pros however, and in this case I feel that they do. Especially in the context of stratagem based deepstrike, which changes the equation considerably.
Now if pods were cheaper, and/or we could take optimal squad configurations in them, itd be a different story.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Well the army has the option to basically save points for 1CP. It's hard to pass up that opportunity.
Alternatively, I see the value in spending 65pts to SAVE 1CP and be able drop in on Turn 1. I just want to try and get MORE value out of that.
I'd love to drop in 5 Vets with 4 Frag cannons, but man is that points inefficient. SB/SS Vets seem sadly the only option Or at the very least, I could use a DP as terrain.
If I had to use one, I'd try and build around the team's main weakness: lack of termi & VV team members. So a) limited survivability and b) no withdraw and shoot.
That would probably mean nearly full stormshields to help mitigate survival, only drop where I can get the team in cover, and maybe a blackshield and sarg with CC weapons.
297pts buys you ten vets, 8 SS/SB, 2 THs (maybe a different weapon) and the pod. Not terrible, by any means, but you've gotta have a really good reason to cleary bubblewrap turn one, or it seems a bit pointless.
Alright, crazy talk time. Three Invictors forward deployed, backed by three of grouchoben's teams (shave the THs for power fists), backed by a turn two drop of two Gravis-Fortis teams out of the teleportarium.
Should have just enough points leftover to fit three HQs (two for DW batallion, one for SM vanguard) and still meet the "boots on the ground" requirements.
Probably a terrible idea, but sounds absolutely hilarious.
And it doesn't matter if the unit gets the aura. Regular Reivers are useless and got the aura, AND they have more means to get into range to use that and their grenade.
Nobody is clamoring towards them for a reason. It's a bad idea, period, especially with the lost extra shot.
Apocryphal statement. It is a good idea even if it is not the most competitive.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Well the army has the option to basically save points for 1CP. It's hard to pass up that opportunity.
Alternatively, I see the value in spending 65pts to SAVE 1CP and be able drop in on Turn 1.
I just want to try and get MORE value out of that.
I'd love to drop in 5 Vets with 4 Frag cannons, but man is that points inefficient. SB/SS Vets seem sadly the only option
Or at the very least, I could use a DP as terrain.
-
UM, no.
Look, the army is already CP hungry as is, and you got IG to fill that gap. If you're going pure, you don't HAVE points for Drop Pod missions, especially as you need to get bigger squads to get bigger value of the Drop Pod or 1CP.
The latter starts to make more sense so more points can be invested towards units you might struggle with like tanks.
So, just a small thing. Had a little game the other night. I was very much surprised and pleased with the output of a couple 5 man stalker bolt rifle teams.
They did a good amount of work on a pair of Hellbrutes and even a maulerfiend as well as working over some chaos marine squads.
The two damage was great and I think they have a good use in the force, especially vs MCs which they could use the poison rounds on, kraken or vengenace rounds I feel like with some ok rolling will really help out vs polishing off some T7 vehicles even.
I may need to pick up a box for them. I'll field them a few more times to try it out.
AngryAngel80 wrote: So, just a small thing. Had a little game the other night. I was very much surprised and pleased with the output of a couple 5 man stalker bolt rifle teams.
They did a good amount of work on a pair of Hellbrutes and even a maulerfiend as well as working over some chaos marine squads.
The two damage was great and I think they have a good use in the force, especially vs MCs which they could use the poison rounds on, kraken or vengenace rounds I feel like with some ok rolling will really help out vs polishing off some T7 vehicles even.
I may need to pick up a box for them. I'll field them a few more times to try it out.
math wise SBR are better than ABR, however, ABR are more versitile and the weight of fire makes them almost as good. They do excel at killing spce marines and MC though.
For me the versility makes the ABR my personal Choice, however, if my local meta was a lot of Terminators/primaris etc, it would we worth the switch.
Much like Han Solo, never tell me the odds. Though jokes aside, I'm well on board with ABRs as well. I just may make up a couple 5 man stalker teams as well as the 2 ABR teams I have already.
Going to try the satlkers out some more but the 2 damage makes them tasty for the fire support while the ABR teams move up and hose down the targets with weight of fire.
instead of the crovus i could play the xiphon, do you think this list could do something, this point lvl is rly nasty for DW^^ tryed to include a Levi but nothing makes sense XD
I feel that with that low point limit, you are going to need to be very efficient with your points to remain competitive. I would consider dropping the corvus and replacing with a contemptor mortis with 2 twin las. This may even leave you enough left over to include a bike squad to help with mobility(both mobility of this unit as well as a teleport home for a kill team) and chaff clearance.
I would also look at the stalker bolt kill team. How do you intend to use them? Typically I use them for backfield long range fire support - if that is the plan, keep it efficient and get rid of the melee units. You could have 7 stalker bolts and 2 terminators for the same price- one terminator with a cyclone, and the other with a power sword. Sit them in cover and soak up volume of fire with the termie and big shots with the ss.
I know I've ask about Drop Pods already, but what to you think about using one in conjunction with the Beacon Angelis to basically drop in a Primaris unit?
Basically you deploy Hellblasters (or an Intercessor unit with plenty of Hellblasters or Plasma Inceptors) out of LoS.
Turn 1 Drop Pod comes in with a Character with the Beacon, then teleport over the HellBlasters.
The net effect is the same as having the Hellblasters themselves in the Drop Pod, even though this isn't possible. All the better if the Character is either a Capt or WatchMaster for rerolls
Ahhh ok now i get it, just replace the corvus and the 3 bikes + VV
So i just need to look how to include Anti tank
The good thing in this tourny is, the missions, you choose them almost like ITC but a bit different, these guys sit on my home base marker and score every round
Some options could be:
dread with lascannon and missiles
Mortis contemptor dread with twin las cannon (my favourite)
Razorback with las cannon (Lazerback)
Galef wrote: I know I've ask about Drop Pods already, but what to you think about using one in conjunction with the Beacon Angelis to basically drop in a Primaris unit?
Basically you deploy Hellblasters (or an Intercessor unit with plenty of Hellblasters or Plasma Inceptors) out of LoS.
Turn 1 Drop Pod comes in with a Character with the Beacon, then teleport over the HellBlasters.
The net effect is the same as having the Hellblasters themselves in the Drop Pod, even though this isn't possible. All the better if the Character is either a Capt or WatchMaster for rerolls
-
Well a jump cap moves 12+d6, and the beacon has a range of 6" anyway, and hellblasters just need that 15" range, so I'm not sure the pod is a worthwhile investment over a good old jump cap, if that's the payload.
Some options could be:
dread with lascannon and missiles
Mortis contemptor dread with twin las cannon (my favourite)
Razorback with las cannon (Lazerback)
Hm with mortis contemptor i have 50 points left. Add two bikes?
Ven Dread is to squishy, razorback too gues i need to include the mortis contemptor
Why is the razoback your favourite? beacause he costs only 110 points? ^^
Now, I see lists with missile launchers in the vet teams ? Do you all really find them as key units ?
I'm sure I get their use but if they are so key, why do they feel that way to you all ? Just for curiosity and perhaps new DW players who may read this.
As heads up I usually run my forces to hug the enemy and run a good amount of frag cannons for my heavies so haven't tried a missile launcher fire base yet.
AngryAngel80 wrote: Now, I see lists with missile launchers in the vet teams ? Do you all really find them as key units ?
I run two pairs of missile vets in Stalker Vet teams pretty consistently. They're not the killiest, or the most reliable, of lads (barring one set who consistently make some of the most eye popping clutch rolls when I absolutely positively need them to), but they're a threat that cant be ignored. Their big appeal is that they draw fire, and with their range that fire usually means heavy weapons that the Stalker Vets toting Storm Shields are in a great spot to soak. They're also a necessary component of the Bike/VV combat squad formula.
In short, they aint flashy, they aint meta defining, but treat em right and they'll do solid work for you.
AngryAngel80 wrote: Now, I see lists with missile launchers in the vet teams ? Do you all really find them as key units ?
I run two pairs of missile vets in Stalker Vet teams pretty consistently. They're not the killiest, or the most reliable, of lads (barring one set who consistently make some of the most eye popping clutch rolls when I absolutely positively need them to), but they're a threat that cant be ignored. Their big appeal is that they draw fire, and with their range that fire usually means heavy weapons that the Stalker Vets toting Storm Shields are in a great spot to soak. They're also a necessary component of the Bike/VV combat squad formula.
In short, they aint flashy, they aint meta defining, but treat em right and they'll do solid work for you.
Ok, gotcha. That is why I tend to like running Missile teams in my lists in other marine forces, I appreciate the versatile nature of the missile and could see small groups of fire support like that pretty worthwhile. Thanks for the response I'll have to ponder setting some up. Though they may not be the exact same set up but sounds like a reasonable insurance policy to take out some problem targets.
The relic contemptor would be nice, but the elite slot to unlock is nasty
Indeed, and at low points, very difficult. I use a Rapier Carrier with Quad launcher to unlock a relic slot. 85 points and excellent screen clearance. It is forgeworld, and some people can get a little upset by that, but when you explain that we cant get thunderfire cannons they are cool with it.
Caught another game over the weekend against a primarily Custodes army, and I think I'm sold on the Stalkers. Each 5-man squad was putting down 1-2 Custodians (of every variety, Terminators and Bikes included) per turn from across the board.
This is about the half-dozenth game in a row testing out the Stalkers, and in each game they've done amazing. I cant think of a faction right now that doesnt have something Hellfire Stalkers arent terrifying against. Leave the chaff clearing to Aggressors and Storm Bolter vets. Intercessors are going big game hunting.
I often run two vet squads with two missile launchers, an infernus, and 2 SS/stalker marines for access to the MW stratagems. Sometimes they are clutch, particularly against eldar. Sometimes they do little. They always get attention.
I play them in pretzel games and they are fun. They are an excellent way to combat squad your bike/vanguard squads, as mentioned above. I would not advise them for tournament play.
It's ok I don't really play tournaments, I just want my lists strong but not over powering brutal for those I play against. So that two missile set up sounds good.
Though I'll not set them up for a bit. I'm still working on some primaris fortis squads like a pair of stalker teams which I think do well in the big game hunting, sniperish role.
Sterling191 wrote: Caught another game over the weekend against a primarily Custodes army, and I think I'm sold on the Stalkers. Each 5-man squad was putting down 1-2 Custodians (of every variety, Terminators and Bikes included) per turn from across the board.
This is about the half-dozenth game in a row testing out the Stalkers, and in each game they've done amazing. I cant think of a faction right now that doesnt have something Hellfire Stalkers arent terrifying against. Leave the chaff clearing to Aggressors and Storm Bolter vets. Intercessors are going big game hunting.
I love my ABR, but with a marine resurgence, I'm seriously considering including the stalkers.
I love my ABR, but with a marine resurgence, I'm seriously considering including the stalkers.
Dont get me wrong, ABRs are fantastic. But with Storm Bolters and Aggressors, they dont fill a role that I havent already taken care of. Stalkers on the other hand, are purpose built for going after things that ABRs and SBs have a hard time cracking (high save multiwound targets).
The question is, will this marine resurge last past the next codex revamps ? Right now its the new trick in town once the shine wears off how will it shake out ? Remember we have the psychic awakening coming, this could buff some other factions a large amount. The sisters are right around the corner as well.
I feel like, at least for us, the ABR is just so all around it'll stand the test of the time. The stalker I feel is a good option, I said it myself earlier in my own testing with stalkers, they just felt good. I feel though, if this marine surge dies down, which I predict once the shine fades it will, ABR will be better for the hordes, lower toughness armies to come.
Stalkers I feel like have a real place but only in moderation to tackle the few choice targets, ABR will end up overall good not knowing who you'll engage.
Can I just go back a bit and ask how can bikes get into drop pods?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Taking a drop pod to next competition. Preparing a list that cannot use forgeworld. I think drop pods are extremely useful but will report back after the tourney.
Some of the reasons to take 1.
A) saves you about 2-3CP. Watch master and one squad of 8 will reside inside. There is also room for one more character.
B) exempt from deep strike points. In my current build I can deep strike about 1250 points. On top of that, I can hide a squad in the back and use beacon Angelis. If we go for vets strike, you can deep strike about 1500+ points turn 2.
C) with blood angel/IG in the mix you have tons of CP to spare for all the best stats and can alpha strike hard. I’ve got a 10 man squad of blood angels VV with SS and powerfists and it’s possible that both Libby dread and smash captain can make turn 1 charges with them. That’s on top of two big deathwatch groups. Also, I bring a full 10 man stalker bolters so they will also be able to strike turn 1 no problem.
Hope it works out, but DS denial will be the big pain.
GameDadZ wrote: Can I just go back a bit and ask how can bikes get into drop pods?
They must be in Veteran squads. The reason for this is that the Drop Pod can only transport Infantry keyword units, but does not explicitly prohibit Biker keyword units. As a result, even though Bikers in Veteran squads gain the Biker keyword for the purposes of Transports, they retain their Infantry keyword, which makes it legal.
And yes, this continues after combat squadding.
If you want to shove ten bikes into Pods, its technically doable, but you'd need to run two 5x Veteran + 5x Biker units, combat squad during deployment, and put the 5x Bike components into the pods.
GameDadZ wrote: Can I just go back a bit and ask how can bikes get into drop pods?
They must be in Veteran squads. The reason for this is that the Drop Pod can only transport Infantry keyword units, but does not explicitly prohibit Biker keyword units. As a result, even though Bikers in Veteran squads gain the Biker keyword for the purposes of Transports, they retain their Infantry keyword, which makes it legal.
And yes, this continues after combat squadding.
If you want to shove ten bikes into Pods, its technically doable, but you'd need to run two 5x Veteran + 5x Biker units, combat squad during deployment, and put the 5x Bike components into the pods.
That's ... insane. I never would have thought of that
I love the idea of cramming all them bikes into pods. I made the same face as the gif just a couple posts above over it. Wonderful, you all get one free command point, on me. Feel free to use it in your next games. Just say I said it was ok. Bike pod, long live the Deathwatch.
From the latest updated deathwatch FAQ "... For the purposes of the Bolter Discipline ability and for determining what models a vehicle can transport, Terminators have the Terminator keyword, Bikers do not have the Infantry keyword and instead have the Biker keyword, and Vanguard Veterans have the Jump Pack keyword."
It is my understanding that they cannot go into drop pods.
By that you may be right, but my heart feels bad it was such a short lived dream of bikes in pods.
And before you say " But, bikes could never be in pods " Way back in 3rd edition you could drop pod bikes. As the drop pod rule was an army wide special rule and you can pod all infantry, bikes, dreads and land speeders. The trick was, if you used drop pod assault everything had to enter that way. It basically just gave all those units deep strike, but it was kinda cool and I used it a good number of times.
That is true, now if only they can give back the corvus machine spirit or make the guns assault and they might actually see the board more.
Honestly, why they took it away in the first place was dumb.
Edit: The Corvus was the only reason I got into Deathwatch, because it looked so very close to the Marine drop ship from the movie Aliens. So it's nerf really hits me hard.
The biggest change I would like to see with the corvus is to bump up it's capacity a bit. It was designed to carry these mixed squads, but 12 spots isn't enough to carry a 10 man kill team with a Vanguard, Termi, and bike. 14 spots would fix that (or 15 for a character.)
Although technically not Deathwatch, I'm in the process of converting a bunch of eliminators to fit the DW shoulder pads. I'll have access to snipers and las fusils. I'll mainly bring them in a Spearhead with a Phobos Cap or LT, however I have 3 squads or sniper scouts for a battalion if I want.
I'm thinking of using either Raven Guard or a Raven Guard Successor with Master Artisans and Stealth, both would work well.
From the latest updated deathwatch FAQ "... For the purposes of the Bolter Discipline ability and for determining what models a vehicle can transport, Terminators have the Terminator keyword, Bikers do not have the Infantry keyword and instead have the Biker keyword, and Vanguard Veterans have the Jump Pack keyword."
It is my understanding that they cannot go into drop pods.
*BOOOOOOO*
But yeah with the updated wording it isnt possible anymore. It was totally anti-RAI so I understand why they did it, but still.
*BOOOOOOO*
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Chris521 wrote: The biggest change I would like to see with the corvus is to bump up it's capacity a bit. It was designed to carry these mixed squads, but 12 spots isn't enough to carry a 10 man kill team with a Vanguard, Termi, and bike. 14 spots would fix that (or 15 for a character.)
Indeed, up the capacity to 15, give it POTMS and drop the cost by 50 points. I want my sad flying turtle to see play.
Yeah feel my pain on that. I picked up 2 of them because I wanted them to be " lynch pin " units for the aerial drop in and secure and fly out feel. All they ended up doing for me is being not taken now, they are just too expensive and lacking in their role I can't find the points for them over squads actually doing things.
That said, what would you all say is the best weapon load outs for them ? I tend to favor AT ability, but I can't say the 12 assault cannon shots is shabby either.
Give me thy wisdom Deathwatch brothers, I beseech ya'll !
That said, what would you all say is the best weapon load outs for them ? I tend to favor AT ability, but I can't say the 12 assault cannon shots is shabby either.
Personally, I always run the assault cannon's with hurricane bolters - screen clearance and transport are what it is good at. 2 shots at BS 4+ is not worth the premium you pay for the lascannons imho.
A ven dred with a las cannon has better AT by far.
I've found them pretty useful both ways. In the fortis team they have cheaper wounds to lose before they get hit and you don't need to worry of the 15 rapid fire as you can DS the whole fortis squad or be in good range in about a turn or two for most targets.
On their own they tend to draw lots of fire once they land which can be good to spread the love around. Just like with old marines the trick to the upfront deep strikes is pressure. Make sure your list compliments your deep strike choices and it all works together and then even if they land shoot and die it hopefully drew fire off other good units that were supporting that role or other units pulled fire off it.
Such as forward operating units of ABR squads, deep striking other squads, pods landing, etc, etc. Give your opponent options and let them make mistakes in who to take out first.
In the fortis if anything they blend very well having matching effective ranges as the other bolt rifles and can also stay mobile with the bolt rifles or ABR equipped squad mates.
In Fortis kill teams or a big squad deep striking?
The problem I see in KT is the 15“ rapid fire range but is this really an issue?
Yeah, full 10 guys, 4 hellblasters and 1 plasma inceptor. Deepstrike usually turn 2 and kill whatever is close. They wreck face, especially when combined with a +1 to wound strat. Try and drop a watch captain or watch master with them, it's a great buff for them. I usually try and kill heavy vehicles with them.
They'll be a big target after dropping tho. But I've not have them being murdered all that hard because when they come in I try to have their threat dead. They're primaris so they're kinda durable.
In Fortis kill teams or a big squad deep striking?
The problem I see in KT is the 15“ rapid fire range but is this really an issue?
Yeah, full 10 guys, 4 hellblasters and 1 plasma inceptor. Deepstrike usually turn 2 and kill whatever is close. They wreck face, especially when combined with a +1 to wound strat. Try and drop a watch captain or watch master with them, it's a great buff for them. I usually try and kill heavy vehicles with them.
They'll be a big target after dropping tho. But I've not have them being murdered all that hard because when they come in I try to have their threat dead. They're primaris so they're kinda durable.
If, and only *IF*, you have the points to spare, or rather would prefer finding the points instead of spending the CPs on the Teleport strat, I'd recommend using a Drop Pod for this.
Let me explain. Give your Watch Master/Captain the relic Beacon. Deploy that character in the Pod. Deploy your big Fortis team on the board somewhere on the table, but out of LoS if possible.
Turn 1 the DP drops in, leaving room for the Fortis team to be Teleported in front of it via the Beacon
The question is, what's more valuable to you. 1CP, or 65pts. Personally, I need as many CPs as possible since I burn through then with the Command Reroll with EVERY army I play, so squeezing in a single Pod to A) save a CP and B) Get my WatchMaster closer seems like a win-win
In Fortis kill teams or a big squad deep striking?
The problem I see in KT is the 15“ rapid fire range but is this really an issue?
I run 5 hellblasters with 5 intercessors in 2 squads, preferably in cover. It's enough raw plasma to blow up many targets outright and the intercessors serve as both bullet sponges and has a reliable way to get that last wound on a lucky target. Partially it works so well because in my meta there's a tendency towards big walkers like dreadnoughts and knights.
In Fortis kill teams or a big squad deep striking?
The problem I see in KT is the 15“ rapid fire range but is this really an issue?
Yeah, full 10 guys, 4 hellblasters and 1 plasma inceptor. Deepstrike usually turn 2 and kill whatever is close. They wreck face, especially when combined with a +1 to wound strat. Try and drop a watch captain or watch master with them, it's a great buff for them. I usually try and kill heavy vehicles with them.
They'll be a big target after dropping tho. But I've not have them being murdered all that hard because when they come in I try to have their threat dead. They're primaris so they're kinda durable.
If, and only *IF*, you have the points to spare, or rather would prefer finding the points instead of spending the CPs on the Teleport strat, I'd recommend using a Drop Pod for this.
Let me explain. Give your Watch Master/Captain the relic Beacon. Deploy that character in the Pod. Deploy your big Fortis team on the board somewhere on the table, but out of LoS if possible.
Turn 1 the DP drops in, leaving room for the Fortis team to be Teleported in front of it via the Beacon
The question is, what's more valuable to you. 1CP, or 65pts. Personally, I need as many CPs as possible since I burn through then with the Command Reroll with EVERY army I play, so squeezing in a single Pod to A) save a CP and B) Get my WatchMaster closer seems like a win-win
-
That's a good plan. I've been using turn two jump pack beacon Captain. Now that we have turn one Pods again bringing in 9 Vets with that package is very tempting.
I put them in a Fortis. Since they don't go T5 I'm a little more flexible with exactly how many, but generally I'll start with 2, add a Plasma Inceptor, then up to 2 more in that order.
Does a Veteran unit with stormbolters that deepstruck 10" away from an enemy unit get to shoot 4 times with SIA? There are 2 terminators and 8 standard marine vets in the unit shooting.
Yeah felt pretty weak to lose our SiA bolter discipline use when they must have known what was coming down the road for Marines at large. Feels punitive.
Invictors for the early pressure game, and to add some AT. Infiltrators for board control, and a phobos captain for reposition shenaingans. Most importantly, Eliminators so we can threaten characters and have some non-LoS threat.
Note to self: never employ sarcasm when conversing with xenohunters!
10man vet squad ds with a vv a termi lots of shields. 2 primaris units, either assault plus aggressors or stalker campers. Maybe a vet stalker team with a hb and ml for triple mortal wound strats if you need it. A watchmaster with some mortis dreads. Season to your taste - I like ds 6-man aggressors with +1 wound strat, for instance.
Hi guys, I'm looking towards buying a few deathwatch marines for Xmas for my rpg. So I'll probably use them in 40k too !
How do they compare to SM 2.0 ?
The start collecting has a dreadnought but I don't think DW has the same stratagem the marines have to half damages suffered by dreadnoughts, so is it worth it ?
Badly. Our SIA is largely comparable, and in some cases inferior, to doctrine bonuses + bolter discipline. Our deep strike shenanigans have been replicated in various forms by several chapters, and without access to the new Primaris Vanguard units we're badly missing particular niche skills like forward deployment and highly focused anti-character capacity. Combine with some of the PA2 shenanigans and regular marine infantry can push the envelope on survivability nearly as hard as Deathwatch can.
The start collecting has a dreadnought but I don't think DW has the same stratagem the marines have to half damages suffered by dreadnoughts, so is it worth it ?
Ven Dreads and Contemptor Mortis dreads are still some of our best units. They're inferior due to structural issues, but still near auto-takes for Deathwatch.
In your turn, you can decide in which order simultaneosu actions are taken. Since both happen "at the end of the movement phase" and, unlike in 7th Ed, neither DWFAQ nor Rulebook FAQ specifically forbid that, it seems possible.
Hey thx, thats my thoughts too. But in serveral tourneys TO denied me to do so, beacuse deepstrike is the last you do.... my argument was rulebook simultaneosu actions are taken, i decied, no one cares, they just said it where written in FAQ etc. but i cant find anything ... lol
Hesselhof wrote: Hey thx, thats my thoughts too. But in serveral tourneys TO denied me to do so, beacuse deepstrike is the last you do.... my argument was rulebook simultaneosu actions are taken, i decied, no one cares, they just said it where written in FAQ etc. but i cant find anything ... lol
Both occur at the "end of the movement phase". There can be multiple actions that trigger in that part of the phase (or the equivalent in other phases). If there wasnt, then a *lot* of things that people take for granted in 8th would break. There is not an FAQ/Eratta that precludes what you're attempting.
Badly. Our SIA is largely comparable, and in some cases inferior, to doctrine bonuses + bolter discipline. Our deep strike shenanigans have been replicated in various forms by several chapters, and without access to the new Primaris Vanguard units we're badly missing particular niche skills like forward deployment and highly focused anti-character capacity. Combine with some of the PA2 shenanigans and regular marine infantry can push the envelope on survivability nearly as hard as Deathwatch can.
The big advantage of DW currently is the Vet package compares fairly well while still being able to be mixed in with other Imperium options.
If building a Fortis unit specifically to be majority T5, which ratio of Aggressors to Inceptors would you take. Context: this unit will be "disembarking" from a Drop Pod. Technically only the Watchmaster will be inside the Pod, but it will have the Beacon to bring them to him once dropped
So given that the unit will be upclose Turn 1 (but not quite flamer range) Should I take more Aggressors (flamers), or Inceptors (plasma). I want at least 2 of each, but what should the 5th T5 model be?
I am leaning towards 3 Aggressors since I will also have a Librarian with Veil of Time in the Pod with the WM, so the Fortis unit can pew-pew and then charge with a reroll. 3 Aggressors would be nasty in melee, especially with WM rerolls. Or should I not bank on melee and get more Shooting with 3 Inceptor in the unit?
You only need the one Inceptor to really keep the bonus. Aggressors would be better to spam. I would say 4/1, but you can get away with 3/2. Aggressors all the way for me.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You only need the one Inceptor to really keep the bonus. Aggressors would be better to spam. I would say 4/1, but you can get away with 3/2. Aggressors all the way for me.
I'm thinking along the same lines. But the reason I'm wanting at least 2 Inceptors is in case 1 dies.
I'm investing a lot for the unit to be shunted forward, kill stuff in shooting, then charge. 2 Plasma Inceptors with WM for rerolls are enough to nearly kill a big target. But Overcharging could still risk one of them dying still.
So I need to be able to use them to their max potential with less risk of losing the fall back and shoot bonus
So the goal of this list is to have as few models as possible but still be a Battalion, all models have multiple wounds, no vehicles and represent a Marine Strike Force that plays like the fluff. Also be fairly melee centered.
Tactics: The WM and Librarian go in the Pod. The T5 Fortis team deploys out of LoS. The 2 Termie Shield Captains will start in Reserve. Turn 1, the Pod drops, the Characters get out, the WM uses the Beacon to call the T5 team right in front The Dawn Eagle Captain follows behind. The 2 other teams advance forward and shoot
I know this list is far from tourney competitive, but do you think it stands a change against other 1500pt casual lists? Lots of quality shots thanx to SIA, Plasma & Flamers, plenty of decent melee with reliable delivery methods. Everything but the 2 DW Characters and Pod is Obsec As long as I have 1CP, I can ensure that I will never give up WL and the 3 Shield Captains can always "Should the Mantle" if my WM dies
Definitely weird stuff happening with CA2019 printing for Deathwatch. I honestly dont trust most of the unit section as its just blatantly wrong, and there's weird oddities in the weapon section (Assault Bolters for instance are still pre-CSM 2.0 cost for instance).
Still, some good stuff. The SIA tax is gone, and Stalker Boltguns are 1 point apiece. *If* we get 12ppm Vets thats a 75 point MSU cover camping rifle unit behind a stormshield wall.
I've seen a video breakdown. Vets are still 14ppm, but storm bolters are down to 2ppm like everyone else. The SIA tax is indeed gone as even the Primaris bolters are all -1ppm. Same cost as regular Marines now.
Watch Master is now 115pts. Too. The list posted above is now 45pts cheaper on the DW stuff alone and I think another 6pts cheaper for the Custodes.
Again, I dont trust anything in the Kill Team or Fortis Kill Team entry at present. It's exceptionally obvious there are misprints there that will need to be sorted out with FAQs.
Galef wrote: I've seen a video breakdown. Vets are still 14ppm, but storm bolters are down to 2ppm like everyone else. The SIA tax is indeed gone as even the Primaris bolters are all -1ppm. Same cost as regular Marines now.
Watch Master is now 115pts. Too. The list posted above is now 45pts cheaper on the DW stuff alone and I think another 6pts cheaper for the Custodes.
-
Now I gotta ask: Shotguns, did they FINALLY go down?
Now I gotta ask: Shotguns, did they FINALLY go down?
Yup. All of the Deathwatch specific weapons went down, some considerably. Shotguns and Stalker Boltguns are 1 point, Infernus Heavy Bolters are 14 points, Frags are 20, Xenophase blade is 5.
Now I gotta ask: Shotguns, did they FINALLY go down?
Yup. All of the Deathwatch specific weapons went down, some considerably. Shotguns and Stalker Boltguns are 1 point, Infernus Heavy Bolters are 14 points, Frags are 20, Xenophase blade is 5.
Just went through CA2019 and pretty happy with the drops, all our weapon choices are now a little more on par with standard options, hell even the heavy thunder hammer is usable now!
One slight worry is that by taking away the SIA tax it leads me to believe we may not be getting all the fancy upgrades that are coming to marines like doctrines.
WisdomLS wrote: Just went through CA2019 and pretty happy with the drops, all our weapon choices are now a little more on par with standard options, hell even the heavy thunder hammer is usable now!
One slight worry is that by taking away the SIA tax it leads me to believe we may not be getting all the fancy upgrades that are coming to marines like doctrines.
Good to hear the poor old HTH finally got some love.
Your concern about the SIA tax mirrors mine as well, although they also could just reapply a tax if they feel the need if they ever do get around to giving us a supplement style upgrade (which would actually surprise me in all honesty).
The bigger deal is probably just that the TH on characters is so much more expensive. It's not really a buff to the HTH, its just not as grossly outclassed as it was when you could put the regular one on a captain.
LunarSol wrote: The bigger deal is probably just that the TH on characters is so much more expensive. It's not really a buff to the HTH, its just not as grossly outclassed as it was when you could put the regular one on a captain.
This. Aggressor powerfists and VanVet HTHs are what we're gonna have to make do with in the short term while we're stuck in planned obsolescence.
you mean replace the bikes and 2 vanguards for more stalker und 2 termis?
