I believe it is likely we will have the new units withheld from DW until the multipart kit comes out. They did that to us for Dark Imperium. Until that time, I don't believe DW will get to play with the new toys.
Even if Eliminators aren't directly available to DW, they might still be a good addition as a <Chapter> Spearhead.
Librarian + 3x3 Elims would be cheap, hard to remove and would be fairly reliable at removing a Character per turn.
I'd personally make them Salamanders for the 1 reroll to hit and wound each time they fire.
Then be so kind as to share said images? Given that there's nothing out there with regards to detachment rules or points costs beyond rumors and speculation, that's a big piece of info to hold back just so you can feel superior on the internet.
I don´t think they will be "forbidden". Probably once they launch them as multipart boxes they will be available for DW. Maybe not for GK because of the bad luck of GK.
Then be so kind as to share said images? Given that there's nothing out there with regards to detachment rules or points costs beyond rumors and speculation, that's a big piece of info to hold back just so you can feel superior on the internet.
Normally I'd agree with you that FB is not a valid place to imply rules. However, they did just confirm with a quote from the Daemonkin book that the rules are not compatible with DG or Tsons. I would be surprised if the same wording wasn't also in the Vanguard Marine book regarding GKs & DW. After all, they are not <Chapter> Marines
So until we get the book in our hands, we really should be prepared for them not to apply
So until we get the book in our hands, we really should be prepared for them not to apply
I simply want verifiable evidence when someone makes a declarative statement about a ruleset.
Which is fair enough, but does pointing out that someone posted an idea using poorly chosen words really change what is fairly reasonable to assume?
While GW hasn't yet "explicitly forbade" using Vanguard Marines with DW/GKs, the circumstantial evidence makes it pretty clear that's the most likely outcome. So unless you're specifically planning on adding a nonDW <Chapter> Detachment for Vanguard Marines, it is unwise to start planning out combos with DWatm. That should be the point, not proofing someone wrong because they cannot provide verifiable evidence.
That should be the point, not proofing someone wrong because they cannot provide verifiable evidence.
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I don't give a damn about "proofing someone wrong". I want facts, not rumor bloviating. And if someone is yutzing around making declarative statements that then prove to be wrong, they're wasting everyone's time.
GW Literally copy pasted the entire text but no, you can't trust them!
Nope, you cant. And you could have avoided this entire situation by simply posting the image when initally requested instead of whining for a day and a half.
GW Literally copy pasted the entire text but no, you can't trust them!
Nope, you cant. And you could have avoided this entire situation by simply posting the image when initally requested instead of whining for a day and a half.
It's an entirely different matter when they post the same citation directly from the codex
Annoying that they can't be used as Deathwatch, I've already got my solid 2k point list painted up anyways. My army are crimson fists but I use the Deathwatch book so I could field a separate detachment of vanguard for fun.
Is there a real value there if you can already put the ability to tank high AP/damage shots on a cheaper 1 wound model? We primarily use termies to tank low AP/damage shots due to their cost.
An argument that a terminator squad with that loadout might be good, but you can pour out just as much firepower with veterans for a lot less points. I guess I'm not really seeing the benefit to DW.
The benefit I see is having the 3++ save on a 2 wound platform. Also combining the 3++ with the EDIT: 2+ makes the terminators IMO definitely tankier than a ver squad.
In a VetSquad you usually have 1termi and all your 3++ saves are on 1 wound models.
Dont get me wrong. I too still think the mixed vetsquad is superior, I just would have liked to have a similar option for DW termis to try out.
Ordana wrote: A lot of weapons with -2 or more AP also have multiple damage.
I don't think your SS's being only on 1 wound models is a significant disadvantage.
I still don´t understand how GW didn´t gave the Corvus Spirit of the Machine. Suposed to be the best of the best and most of the Dakka from his flyer never hits.
Sterling191 wrote: None of the above. Spend the 200 points elsewhere for far better results.
I can completely understand where you are coming from, but I'm using it as a transport rather than a gunship. And, so far, it's the only Transport I'm aware of that can carry Jump Infantry and Bikers (both of which I will be carrying in the Corvus Blackstar).
I would go full guns, with las on hte Corvus. The DW don't have that many high wound anti-tank options, and the Corvus does a nice job of crowd control, mortal wounds, and anti-tank all in one.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I would go full guns, with las on hte Corvus. The DW don't have that many high wound anti-tank options, and the Corvus does a nice job of crowd control, mortal wounds, and anti-tank all in one.
So, are you saying that I should take nothing but lascannons on the Corvus or Lascannons + Hurricane Bolters + an Auspex or Infernum Halo-Launcher?
ServiceGames wrote: I can completely understand where you are coming from, but I'm using it as a transport rather than a gunship. And, so far, it's the only Transport I'm aware of that can carry Jump Infantry and Bikers (both of which I will be carrying in the Corvus Blackstar).
Thanks
SG
You're *FAR* better off using a jump HQ with the Beacon to move a squad around the board than a Corvus. Every gun on the board is gonna be pointed at your 500 point winged ball of sadness.
Has anyone ever given any thought to double Melta Terminators? As in, Powerfist/Melta and Combi-melta on a single Termie as part of a Vet unit?
It's expensive sure, but could be fun to drop in near a vehicle, pop some shots and generally be a big threat to distract and draw fire.
You could even use the Beacon on an Advancing Jump Captain to pull the unit forward Turn 1. 12" move + d6" Advance + 6" from Beacon is virtually guaranteed to get range (albeit outside 9") I was planning on using this tactic for a pair of Frag Cannons anyway, with a Termie in the unit, so having double Melta could really allow them to drop some big targets. Both the Frag Cannons and Meltas want to get closer than 9" (which is a limitation to the tactic) but with enough StormVets in the unit, a VV to allow them to fallback just in case, the opponent cannot afford to let this unit live past the turn they get dropped at their doorstep.
Hrmm, obviously it’s all about finding that line where it’s as strong as possible and lives to work, but if I’ve got a unit that I already assume the opponent will not let live, Id never add more wargear to it, that’s just throwing away more points when they kill it.
bort wrote: Hrmm, obviously it’s all about finding that line where it’s as strong as possible and lives to work, but if I’ve got a unit that I already assume the opponent will not let live, Id never add more wargear to it, that’s just throwing away more points when they kill it.
Usually this is good advice and I hold to it. I was just brainstorming the idea of a vet unit with 2 frag cannon, double melta termie, VV and 3 stormvets being shunted up field with the Beacon. It might drop or severely cripple a big target, which could be worth it. There would be other threats presented, so the idea is to make a hard choice for my opponent: focus fire on that unit or other units.
Probably not something I'd play in a tournament, but could be quite good in casual games.
ImPhaeronWeasel wrote: Are Custodes any good as allies for Deathwatch? (im looking at the termis espacially).
I'm currently working on a double DW battalion list with a Supreme Command of Dawneagle Shield Captians. Aside from my 4 DWHQs, every unit I have is ObSec. The Shield Caps provide some fast melee punch, Melta Missiles and some serious fire-magnet bait. They also all but ensure that my opponent will rarely ever claim Slay the WL. WatchMaster dies? Spend 1CP to make a Shield Cap the new WL.
Granted, my list is a bit more melee focused, so I'm not really sure how Custodes would do in a more shooting based list
With the new FW units especially Custodes have deceptively strong shooting. But even if you go for the more punchy variety, they work excellent as distraction units to draw fire away from your Vets.
Galef wrote: Has anyone ever given any thought to double Melta Terminators?
As in, Powerfist/Melta and Combi-melta on a single Termie as part of a Vet unit?
It's expensive sure, but could be fun to drop in near a vehicle, pop some shots and generally be a big threat to distract and draw fire.
You could even use the Beacon on an Advancing Jump Captain to pull the unit forward Turn 1. 12" move + d6" Advance + 6" from Beacon is virtually guaranteed to get range (albeit outside 9")
I was planning on using this tactic for a pair of Frag Cannons anyway, with a Termie in the unit, so having double Melta could really allow them to drop some big targets.
Both the Frag Cannons and Meltas want to get closer than 9" (which is a limitation to the tactic) but with enough StormVets in the unit, a VV to allow them to fallback just in case, the opponent cannot afford to let this unit live past the turn they get dropped at their doorstep.
Thoughts?
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How does that even work, I didn't think they could take a combi and a melta/pf? Where is that option...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ServiceGames wrote: How important is a Librarian in a Deathwatch army? Would you take a Librarian over more boots on the ground with guns in their hands?
Thanks
SG
I used three Primaris Libby's with force staves, JPs, and Plaspistols in my last match, and they did fairly well as flying beatsticks. They would harrass with smite, plas shots, and then charge in an beatstick down anything that warranted attention. Also, Might of Heroes is fun for a round or two. But it cost me points I wish I had elsewhere.
Galef wrote: Has anyone ever given any thought to double Melta Terminators?
As in, Powerfist/Melta and Combi-melta on a single Termie as part of a Vet unit?
It's expensive sure, but could be fun to drop in near a vehicle, pop some shots and generally be a big threat to distract and draw fire.
You could even use the Beacon on an Advancing Jump Captain to pull the unit forward Turn 1. 12" move + d6" Advance + 6" from Beacon is virtually guaranteed to get range (albeit outside 9")
I was planning on using this tactic for a pair of Frag Cannons anyway, with a Termie in the unit, so having double Melta could really allow them to drop some big targets.
Both the Frag Cannons and Meltas want to get closer than 9" (which is a limitation to the tactic) but with enough StormVets in the unit, a VV to allow them to fallback just in case, the opponent cannot afford to let this unit live past the turn they get dropped at their doorstep.
Thoughts?
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How does that even work, I didn't think they could take a combi and a melta/pf? Where is that option...
The Powerfist/Melta is a Terminator Melee option (you swap the default Powerfist for) and the Combi-Melta is, well, as Terminator Combi-weapon (you swap the Stormbolter for)
Expensive, but it could be pretty reliable on a single Termie embedded in a Vet squad
I used three Primaris Libby's with force staves, JPs, and Plaspistols in my last match, and they did fairly well as flying beatsticks. They would harrass with smite, plas shots, and then charge in an beatstick down anything that warranted attention. Also, Might of Heroes is fun for a round or two. But it cost me points I wish I had elsewhere.
How?! Primaris Librarian has a fixed loadout of P. Sword and Bolt Pistol, and no access to Jump Packs?
Did you have any problems with diminishing returns from the stacking -1 to cast from smite? I would imagine that third casting gets a bit swingy...
Galef wrote: Has anyone ever given any thought to double Melta Terminators?
As in, Powerfist/Melta and Combi-melta on a single Termie as part of a Vet unit?
It's expensive sure, but could be fun to drop in near a vehicle, pop some shots and generally be a big threat to distract and draw fire.
You could even use the Beacon on an Advancing Jump Captain to pull the unit forward Turn 1. 12" move + d6" Advance + 6" from Beacon is virtually guaranteed to get range (albeit outside 9")
I was planning on using this tactic for a pair of Frag Cannons anyway, with a Termie in the unit, so having double Melta could really allow them to drop some big targets.
Both the Frag Cannons and Meltas want to get closer than 9" (which is a limitation to the tactic) but with enough StormVets in the unit, a VV to allow them to fallback just in case, the opponent cannot afford to let this unit live past the turn they get dropped at their doorstep.
Thoughts?
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How does that even work, I didn't think they could take a combi and a melta/pf? Where is that option...
The Powerfist/Melta is a Terminator Melee option (you swap the default Powerfist for) and the Combi-Melta is, well, as Terminator Combi-weapon (you swap the Stormbolter for)
Expensive, but it could be pretty reliable on a single Termie embedded in a Vet squad
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That's still only two shots. I'd almost rather take that ghastly idea of 5 Vanguard going cowboy with Inferno Pistols than embed that in a Vet squad. A simple power weapon and Storm Bolter is all you need.
Of course I'm guilty of running one with an Assault Cannon in my shotgun squad because I'm a hopeless romantic that hopes for then to be good at some point.
All I am saying is that for an army that has some notorious deficiencies for anti-vehicle, having double Melta Termies is an option that other Marines do not have, so it's a neat trick albeit costly.
Vets dropping in with Combi-Meltas is probably better, sure.
Too bad you cannot swap after swapping (or can you?). You could swap the SB for Cyclone ML/SB, then swap that SB for a Combi-melta and swap your Powerfist for Powerfist/Melta.
That'd be a model I'd like to see on the table. 4 S8 shots, two of them Melta. Gunboat Termie.
You'd never use two of those shots while camping with the Cyclone, and if you go to the forefront with the Melta + Cyclone it's a LOT of points to give up. Even if you can do it, it is a bad idea.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You'd never use two of those shots while camping with the Cyclone, and if you go to the forefront with the Melta + Cyclone it's a LOT of points to give up. Even if you can do it, it is a bad idea.
Didn't say it was a good idea, but it is a FUN idea. Double Melta terminators are just enough of both to maybe be worth it in casual games.
If they want to kill the Double Melta Termie, they're gonna have to get though the entire unit. Which you can use to your advantage as a fire magnet away from your other units.
And if that double Melta Termie manages to burn a chunk out of a tank, it is worth its points.
Units/loadouts do not have to be ULTRA SUPER EFFECIENT TO THE EXCLUSION OF ALL OTHER CHOICES to be "good/fun" choices worth taking.
Meltas are overly underestimated, maybe rightly so, but when they do what they are supposed to do, they can win games. DW Termies have several ways to deliver that payload (true Termie units dropping in, Vet units dropping in via Teleportorium, the Beacon, etc). And even with only 2 shots, DW get rerolls out the wazoo, so that's much less of an issue for them than other armies.
Still probably best to keep the Termie cheap, but the option is there and by the Emperor, I'm gonna magnetize it on at least 1 model
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: This is the Tactics section. We can talk about "fun" all you want but that's not exactly the point of the subforum.
*sigh* I really wanted to just let this go, but I really don't think it's fair. "Good" is a subjective term. Yes, we typically want to talk about tactics for things that are "tourney good" in this section, but that should NOT invalidate discussing tactics for using loadouts/combos that are only "casual good/fun". If you can use it and build tactics around it, it is valid to discuss here. PERIOD.
I brought up a loadout because I thought it could be good if used correctly, and wanted to discuss how to do such. That idea was quickly shot down for "competitive" play. That's fair enough. But then I tried to discuss how to STILL use the loadout in casual games, because it's a "good enough" loadout that's "cool-factor" outweighs it's deficiencies.
It is not fair to just shut out the idea because it's already been determined to not be "tournament worthy". The idea is still valid because not everyone plays super-competitive tourney lists. And I say this as a multiple-tourney winner who enjoys non-competitive casual games
Galef wrote: Has anyone ever given any thought to double Melta Terminators?
As in, Powerfist/Melta and Combi-melta on a single Termie as part of a Vet unit?
It's expensive sure, but could be fun to drop in near a vehicle, pop some shots and generally be a big threat to distract and draw fire.
The primary drawback is that suddenly your "cheap" source of soaking small arms fire is now more than twice as costly. If one were to do this, one would want a second termie in the squad to use as the ablative flashlight catcher. Losing a 70+ point model to chaff will sting.
That being said...I can see some synergy with the new Vanguard warlord traits (assuming DW ever gets them, which Im dubious on). Drop in with a Phobos warlord, pop the +1 to hit WLT, then add in the +1 to wound from a Doctrine...can potentially be a mini deathstar. Especially if you're packing some plasma in the squad.
Galef wrote: Has anyone ever given any thought to double Melta Terminators?
As in, Powerfist/Melta and Combi-melta on a single Termie as part of a Vet unit?
It's expensive sure, but could be fun to drop in near a vehicle, pop some shots and generally be a big threat to distract and draw fire.
The primary drawback is that suddenly your "cheap" source of soaking small arms fire is now more than twice as costly. If one were to do this, one would want a second termie in the squad to use as the ablative flashlight catcher. Losing a 70+ point model to chaff will sting.
Certainly. And I think that's almost a given that you'd need another Termie, or just don't allocate wounds on the Termie at all. Using the Beacon, or Teleport strat you can probably drop the unit in cover, so even the Storm Vets would have a 2+ armour against AP-0
You'd also have the Capt near if using the Beacon, so you'd get re-roll 1s already, so maybe giving some Combi-plasmas to the Vets would be good too.
What I like about this tactic is that is doesn't require that you wait until Turn 2 to drop them in. Using the Beacon and Advancing with a Jump-Capt, you can deploy the unit out of LoS and shunt them up 6" in front of the Capt. 12+d6" + 6" should get the unit in range of just about any target they want.
Do enough damage with the unit on that turn, and it would really matter if they die to retaliation. If they survive, it's all bonus from their.
I run my marines with the DW codex and am trying to think of how I can include the new vanguard units in my list as Astartes allies without losing too much effectiveness.
I run a dw battalion and a vanguard with 3 big Primaris kill teams and a big veteran squad in the battalion with 2 of them being intercessors and plasma the other being intercessors and aggressors. My veterans are a big deepstriking blob of 9 all with sb/ss. In the battalion I also have a libby, watch master and repulsor.
The vanguard is 3 dreads and a jump captain. My list has done well recently and can't see where any of the new units fit in unless I just make a separate patrol for an Astartes detachment but it seems useless.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: This is the Tactics section. We can talk about "fun" all you want but that's not exactly the point of the subforum.
*sigh* I really wanted to just let this go, but I really don't think it's fair.
"Good" is a subjective term. Yes, we typically want to talk about tactics for things that are "tourney good" in this section, but that should NOT invalidate discussing tactics for using loadouts/combos that are only "casual good/fun". If you can use it and build tactics around it, it is valid to discuss here. PERIOD.
I brought up a loadout because I thought it could be good if used correctly, and wanted to discuss how to do such.
That idea was quickly shot down for "competitive" play. That's fair enough.
But then I tried to discuss how to STILL use the loadout in casual games, because it's a "good enough" loadout that's "cool-factor" outweighs it's deficiencies.
It is not fair to just shut out the idea because it's already been determined to not be "tournament worthy".
The idea is still valid because not everyone plays super-competitive tourney lists. And I say this as a multiple-tourney winner who enjoys non-competitive casual games
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Even for a casual game, Melta Guns shouldn't be recommended. Consider the following:
1. You have to take all Terminators or embed them in the Vet squad
2. For those both doing Deep Strike, you won't get the benefit of the Melta rule
3. To get that benefit, you'd be forced into using the Corvus, already not a fantastic option for delivery or killing
GW had an opportunity to fix the issue, and they instead kept Plasma cheaper still. The only place I would consider using this idea is maybe on a suicide Captain due to the low cost of opportunity and not needing as many resources, as well as not being priced like he's in his own aura. On average two Terminators will land MAYBE one more shot with 4 Melta Guns, but the cost to get what you want is far too high due to the unit constraints I already outlined.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: This is the Tactics section. We can talk about "fun" all you want but that's not exactly the point of the subforum.
Why someone brings a unit is entirely irrelevant for discussing tactics surrounding its use. Your constant need to silence people because a unit isn't tournament worthy in your eyes is starting to grate.
Maybe you don't think it's worth talking about, fine. Then don't. But discussing tactics for all units, tournament worthy or not, is the point of the thread bub.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: This is the Tactics section. We can talk about "fun" all you want but that's not exactly the point of the subforum.
Why someone brings a unit is entirely irrelevant for discussing tactics surrounding its use. Your constant need to silence people because a unit isn't tournament worthy in your eyes is starting to grate.
Maybe you don't think it's worth talking about, fine. Then don't. But discussing tactics for all units, tournament worthy or not, is the point of the thread bub.
There are genuinely things not worth discussing, and that's the way it is. Sure, someone can post about a Terminator squad using the contents of Space Hulk (one TH/SS, one Chainfist, one pair of LC, one Assault Cannon, and a Power Sword Sergeant) and how to use it in a game, but it's literally a waste of everyone's time.
Jump Captain would be an obvious pick to keep up and give the rerolls. That's important for their offense after all.
You're fine with just Chainswords and the Sergeant will depend on whether you want him to tank with a Storm Shield (I think he can take that) or shoot with a Storm Bolter.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Jump Captain would be an obvious pick to keep up and give the rerolls. That's important for their offense after all.
You're fine with just Chainswords and the Sergeant will depend on whether you want him to tank with a Storm Shield (I think he can take that) or shoot with a Storm Bolter.
I think it would be better Bolt Pistols because of SIA
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Jump Captain would be an obvious pick to keep up and give the rerolls. That's important for their offense after all.
You're fine with just Chainswords and the Sergeant will depend on whether you want him to tank with a Storm Shield (I think he can take that) or shoot with a Storm Bolter.
I think it would be better Bolt Pistols because of SIA
You can't fire those at the same time you use your TL Bolter, and you can only fire the pistols on your turn if you were in melee. As we can't expect Bikers to live that long, it makes more sense to have them shoot hard and kinda poke in melee.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Jump Captain would be an obvious pick to keep up and give the rerolls. That's important for their offense after all.
You're fine with just Chainswords and the Sergeant will depend on whether you want him to tank with a Storm Shield (I think he can take that) or shoot with a Storm Bolter.
I think it would be better Bolt Pistols because of SIA
You can't fire those at the same time you use your TL Bolter, and you can only fire the pistols on your turn if you were in melee. As we can't expect Bikers to live that long, it makes more sense to have them shoot hard and kinda poke in melee.
Deviating a bit from pure DW, this was something that hit me the other day. So many bat reps and lists I see don't do anything for the sarge, they just roll him as +1 attack for his boosted stat line. But most marine sgts and characters have the option to replace the bolt pistol with another weapon. Why would you ever not take the chainsword as a free replacement? (If not paying points for a better weapon, obv). Now your sgt is +2 dice at almost no downside.
That depends on the situation. Usually, anyway.
The main benefit to Kraken is you get Rapid Fire more easily. Even not assuming that, 2 Kraken rounds is actually killing .44 Sisters and 2 Helfire is killing .37.
Remember that this isn't taking into account rerolls.
McGibs wrote: Wait, can't biker sergeants take a stormbolter and stormshield? (two items from equipment list)
3 man bike squad with 4x stormbolters and stormshield is 81 pts, which seems like a hell of a steal for a fast harassment unit.
That is correct, very utilitarian unit. Since CA Deathwatch bike squads have been a good choice.
The only thing I don't like about this loadout is that if you need to use the Storm shield to tank high AP wounds for the unit, you risk losing half your SIA shots for the unit
McGibs wrote: Wait, can't biker sergeants take a stormbolter and stormshield? (two items from equipment list)
3 man bike squad with 4x stormbolters and stormshield is 81 pts, which seems like a hell of a steal for a fast harassment unit.
That is correct, very utilitarian unit. Since CA Deathwatch bike squads have been a good choice.
The only thing I don't like about this loadout is that if you need to use the Storm shield to tank high AP wounds for the unit, you risk losing half your SIA shots for the unit
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That's right. We only need to consider if thise 4 points are worth for us for the risk. But, if you have to tank with your bikes high AP that's good for other of your more expensive units. Maybe you are saving a Dreadnought.
I see the stormshield as more of a deterrent. 3 bikes are not hard to kill. 3 bikes and a stormshield are annoying to kill, and a lot of players will just pick another target. I don't see the bikes as a durable unit, but my opponent will have to dedicate SOMETHING to it, and not just incidental shooting, so they're more likely to be left alone, zipping around firing their bucket of shots.
McGibs wrote: I see the stormshield as more of a deterrent. 3 bikes are not hard to kill. 3 bikes and a stormshield are annoying to kill, and a lot of players will just pick another target. I don't see the bikes as a durable unit, but my opponent will have to dedicate SOMETHING to it, and not just incidental shooting, so they're more likely to be left alone, zipping around firing their bucket of shots.
This is fair.
You could also use the SS last, instead of trying to tank with it. Let the 2 regular bike take wounds first, but once the Sgt is the last alive, he still gets 8 SIA shots by himself, so still a threat and potentially hard to remove.
My only issue is that 3 dudes will never be hard to remove. I have to use a minimum of 4 in a squad. You still get MSU benefits and less drops (to an extent).
McGibs wrote: I see the stormshield as more of a deterrent. 3 bikes are not hard to kill. 3 bikes and a stormshield are annoying to kill, and a lot of players will just pick another target. I don't see the bikes as a durable unit, but my opponent will have to dedicate SOMETHING to it, and not just incidental shooting, so they're more likely to be left alone, zipping around firing their bucket of shots.
This is fair.
You could also use the SS last, instead of trying to tank with it. Let the 2 regular bike take wounds first, but once the Sgt is the last alive, he still gets 8 SIA shots by himself, so still a threat and potentially hard to remove.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: My only issue is that 3 dudes will never be hard to remove. I have to use a minimum of 4 in a squad. You still get MSU benefits and less drops (to an extent).
Well, by "hard to remove" I usually think of it requiring either more than 1 enemy unit to do the job, or a significantly disproportionate amount of points invested into removing the unit. So with that relative definition, I'd consider a <100pt unit "hard to remove" if it takes more than twice its points to do that in 1 turn.
If your rival does nothing against them, it is a cheap unit with fast moovement who can score some important points or tactical objectives and also kill some stuff. Also if they survive enought because your rival does not find them important enought they can give you Linebreaker.
I really think for their points they are really good with the SIA. Of course they are not "that unit thas must be removed at all cost" but, they are there for less tan 100 points.
The 40k Factions-Wiki on 4chan says this to SIA:
"Vengeance Round: [...] The best ammo against T4 and smaller, unless Kraken gets to shoot twice." Hellfire is advised to be used against T5 and up, because wounding on 2+ is hard to achieve.
The 40k Factions-Wiki on 4chan says this to SIA:
"Vengeance Round: [...] The best ammo against T4 and smaller, unless Kraken gets to shoot twice." Hellfire is advised to be used against T5 and up, because wounding on 2+ is hard to achieve.
I'm like 100% sure Helfire does better on T4 without a 2+.
The 40k Factions-Wiki on 4chan says this to SIA:
"Vengeance Round: [...] The best ammo against T4 and smaller, unless Kraken gets to shoot twice." Hellfire is advised to be used against T5 and up, because wounding on 2+ is hard to achieve.
I'm like 100% sure Helfire does better on T4 without a 2+.
The 40k Factions-Wiki on 4chan says this to SIA:
"Vengeance Round: [...] The best ammo against T4 and smaller, unless Kraken gets to shoot twice." Hellfire is advised to be used against T5 and up, because wounding on 2+ is hard to achieve.
I'm like 100% sure Helfire does better on T4 without a 2+.
Agreed. Wounding on 2+ with AP-0 should net you more failed saves against just about every T4+ target than wounding on 4+ with AP-1.
Even if the Kraken round extends your range to get RF double shots, there are still cases in which the Hellfire round would still be the better option with half the shots (T5+ with weak armour)
Hellfire is just better in far more situations then Kraken or Vengeance. It really should be limited somehow. Maybe only wound on 3+, or only getting the bonus vs MONSTERS.
If you don't recognize there is an internal balance issue with SIA, that's fine. But it doesn't make it less true Having a "wound on 2+" option is just plain good. So good that the other options are niche at best. Useful, sure, but very niche in comparison.
Ask yourself this: If you had to pick your SIA mode pregame for the whole army (like Mission Tactics) and that mode is what every unit had to use, would you every take anything but Hellfire rounds for every game? No, you wouldn't and nor would anyone else. But if Hellfire rounds only wounded on 3+, there would be that many more situations in which Kraken or Vengeance bolts would have a purpose, making it a harder choice. And that's my point. There should NEVER be a "default" option. That's a pretty clear indication of an internal balance issue.
And I am not talking about EXTERNAL balance at all, here. I have no desire or intention to nerf DW, which is probably what you have issue with. I just want the other SIA modes to have purpose over "just use Hellfire instead"
Wounding on 3+ would do this. You'd still get to re-roll 1s using Mission Tactics and you could still wound on 2+ if you use a Stratagem. So in the end it wouldn't be a massive change, but leaves just enough room for the other SIAs to have purpose
Quite literally every time anyone discusses SIA, you swoop in banging the "HELLFIRE IS THE OP, IT MUST DIESSS!!!!!1" megaphone to the point of vomitousness.
I'm sick and tired of it.
Every round besides Dragonfire has its role. If you want to go on a crusade, direct your attention there.
If you don't recognize there is an internal balance issue with SIA, that's fine. But it doesn't make it less true
Having a "wound on 2+" option is just plain good. So good that the other options are niche at best. Useful, sure, but very niche in comparison.
Ask yourself this: If you had to pick your SIA mode pregame for the whole army (like Mission Tactics) and that mode is what every unit had to use, would you every take anything but Hellfire rounds for every game?
No, you wouldn't and nor would anyone else. But if Hellfire rounds only wounded on 3+, there would be that many more situations in which Kraken or Vengeance bolts would have a purpose, making it a harder choice. And that's my point. There should NEVER be a "default" option. That's a pretty clear indication of an internal balance issue.
And I am not talking about EXTERNAL balance at all, here. I have no desire or intention to nerf DW, which is probably what you have issue with. I just want the other SIA modes to have purpose over "just use Hellfire instead"
Wounding on 3+ would do this. You'd still get to re-roll 1s using Mission Tactics and you could still wound on 2+ if you use a Stratagem. So in the end it wouldn't be a massive change, but leaves just enough room for the other SIAs to have purpose
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Have you actually seen the Ammo Chart someone posted here a while back? Helfire loses in a lot more situations than you'd think. The people complaining about the 2+ need to bugger off with their non-math nonsense.
How is going from 2+ to 3+ "HELLFIRE IS THE OP, IT MUST DIESSS!!!!"? It's a small tweak that gives the other options some room? I DO NOT want Hellfire to die. I just don't want it to be the default choice, which it very clearly is, from a Tactics pov.
But whatever, I'll drop it. It's not like GW is going to change it anyway, so I'll just continue to use Hellfire rounds as the default mode.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Have you actually seen the Ammo Chart someone posted here a while back? Helfire loses in a lot more situations than you'd think. The people complaining about the 2+ need to bugger off with their non-math nonsense.
Actually, no I have not. I'd very much be interesting to see that. Does it take into account the re-roll 1s? Because that makes a difference.
Maybe it's just my dice, but I have actually rolled hundreds of dice "mathing" this out over about a hour (I was really bored one night). Using the same rolls, I tracked how many wounds would have been done against various targets, accounting for AP-1/2. Aside from T3 targets and anything with a 2+ armour, Hellfire rounds caused nearly twice the unsaved wounds in most cases. The biggest contributor seemed to be the reroll 1s, as it did not affect the Kraken or Vengeance nearly as much (because 2s, 3s and 4s were still fails against certain targets)
It's a small tweak that gives the other options some room?
Except it isn't. It makes Kraken the default round to use on anything excepting T5+ non-vehicle targets and T6+ vehicle targets.
Right now, Hellfire is the anti heavy infantry / monster round. Kraken is the generic ranged / Light Infantry round, and Vengeance is the Vee hunting round. Hellfire simply gets hate because some people cant wrap their brain around small arms getting a 2+ wound roll.
I *highly* recommend digging up the math flowchart. You're regularly overlooking multiple instances in your vendetta against Hellfire.
Which does not exist, sorry if I've given that impression. I would like to ask that you stop referring to my opinion in such a hostile manner. I will try to do that same and stop posting my opinion about Hellfire rounds since it is clearly non-productive
Galef wrote: How is going from 2+ to 3+ "HELLFIRE IS THE OP, IT MUST DIESSS!!!!"?
It's a small tweak that gives the other options some room? I DO NOT want Hellfire to die. I just don't want it to be the default choice, which it very clearly is, from a Tactics pov.
But whatever, I'll drop it. It's not like GW is going to change it anyway, so I'll just continue to use Hellfire rounds as the default mode.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Have you actually seen the Ammo Chart someone posted here a while back? Helfire loses in a lot more situations than you'd think. The people complaining about the 2+ need to bugger off with their non-math nonsense.
Actually, no I have not. I'd very much be interesting to see that.
Does it take into account the re-roll 1s? Because that makes a difference.
Maybe it's just my dice, but I have actually rolled hundreds of dice "mathing" this out over about a hour (I was really bored one night). Using the same rolls, I tracked how many wounds would have been done against various targets, accounting for AP-1/2. Aside from T3 targets and anything with a 2+ armour, Hellfire rounds caused nearly twice the unsaved wounds in most cases.
The biggest contributor seemed to be the reroll 1s, as it did not affect the Kraken or Vengeance nearly as much (because 2s, 3s and 4s were still fails against certain targets)
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I literally kept it on my phone for game use, and I'm uploading it to Imgur for ease of access.
The math assumes Valid Target each time for Dragonfire and Helfire, so keep that in mind.
Thanx Slayer-Fan. That's really helpful. Although, correct my reading of that, but it looks like Kraken is never ideal, which is surprising considering even Dragonfire has some green on that chart.
Obviously that would change if there are situations in which Kraken would give double shots when other mode would not
Galef wrote: Thanx Slayer-Fan. That's really helpful. Although, correct my reading of that, but it looks like Kraken is never ideal, which is surprising considering even Dragonfire has some green on that chart.
Obviously that would change if there are situations in which Kraken would give double shots when other mode would not
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And when you look at double the shots, you up notice how Kraken gets ahead overall.
Reroll 1s and Reroll all. Basically Watch Captain and Watch Master auras respectively.
Keep in mind that this chart assumes optimal scenarios for each ammo type. As such when those scenarios are not in play, you need to do some movement on the grid. It's why Dragonfire looks so good, but is actually garbage
Makes sense, thanx. The chart also only shows Bolters, which can still be applied to Stormbolters, but doesn't really apply to Intercessor Bolt Rifles.
Although the "Vengeance" results would be the same as Bolt Rifle Kraken results
Galef wrote: Makes sense, thanx. The chart also only shows Bolters, which can still be applied to Stormbolters, but doesn't really apply to Intercessor Bolt Rifles.
Although the "Vengeance" results would be the same as Bolt Rifle Kraken results
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This chart was done when we got access to SIA Storm Bolters basically. That's what my memory says anyway.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So knights are a thing. Tournie I went to this weekend - by the end of the second round I had faced 8 knights: a castellan 3 Gallants a crusader and 3 FW knights. I did kill 5 and wounding the others enough to kill a 6th. I had a battalion of DW some tank commanders and a Krast Knight. I’m finding I don’t really need a battalion of SIA. I need more knight killing power. Desperate for it actually. There were other knight armies there so it’s not like they all came to me.
I’m testing a unit of terminators. 330 points for 3 TH/SH and 3 with SB/Cyclone Missile Launcher and power maul. The shields are there to give 3++. The reason is those missiles are D6 damage each. I can hide them, buff them and use strats in them.
Are there any other crazy ideas to help the knight match up? Ultramarines with Killshot?
The only bolter ammo that needs a look is Dragon fire. I get plenty of use out of the other 3. If they at least let it ignore cover in addition to the +1 to hit, I may actually use it once in a while. Then, if they made the cities of death cover rules standard, it could be an effective choice.
Eihnlazer wrote: Dragonfire should be +1 to hit and mortal wound on a dice roll of a 6 while shooting at models in cover.
My friends are angry when I play against them with DW and use Hellfire. They are all the time crying around the table because how OP it is. If we also have this I would need to check rival in another area.
Chris521 wrote: The only bolter ammo that needs a look is Dragon fire. I get plenty of use out of the other 3. If they at least let it ignore cover in addition to the +1 to hit, I may actually use it once in a while. Then, if they made the cities of death cover rules standard, it could be an effective choice.
This would be the best solution. It would still be a niche ammo, but I think would still be used at least to combat snipers.
Galef wrote: Thanx Slayer-Fan. That's really helpful. Although, correct my reading of that, but it looks like Kraken is never ideal, which is surprising considering even Dragonfire has some green on that chart.
Obviously that would change if there are situations in which Kraken would give double shots when other mode would not
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And when you look at double the shots, you up notice how Kraken gets ahead overall.
Yeah, Krakken is strictly worse than Vengeance when both are rolling dice. It's entire advantage is the extra foot of range where it can roll dice and vengeance cannot.
Dragonfire rounds just don't do anything. They feel like they were written at a time when cover added a penalty to hit instead of an armor bonus. It just needs to be rethought and redesigned. Ignoring modifiers could be really cool.
I'm confused by the previous chart. Too many axis make my eyes hurt. What are the +1 etc referring to? Number of shots or number of nsaved wounds? Because it looks like the green chart numbers indicate how many shots are needed to get an unsaved wound. And the charts are divided by toughness....so what the hell is the +1 +2 +3 horizontal axis?
Poxwalkers have a +7, nothing has a +1 as it acts like a 2++ save in practice. Guessing those actually refer to the common shortcut of saying a +2 with +1 to save is +1, which is not really how it works.
Having plenty of joy with my Primaris kill team containing 5 intercessors, 3 aggressors and and inceptor. Stick them in the teleport with a squad of 9 as/SB vets and a jump captain and you've got some real crazy anti infantry fire. Played last night and they smashed a unit of 30 boys and a weirdboy as they landed and then in the following turn destroyed a squad of Ork bikes in combat.
Stem the green tide is utterly amazing, had 5 mega armour nobz jump behind me then played the strat as they charged my redemptor, he then killed one and he ended up taking his charge by 1!
Rogerio134134 wrote: Having plenty of joy with my Primaris kill team containing 5 intercessors, 3 aggressors and and inceptor. Stick them in the teleport with a squad of 9 as/SB vets and a jump captain and you've got some real crazy anti infantry fire. Played last night and they smashed a unit of 30 boys and a weirdboy as they landed and then in the following turn destroyed a squad of Ork bikes in combat.
Stem the green tide is utterly amazing, had 5 mega armour nobz jump behind me then played the strat as they charged my redemptor, he then killed one and he ended up taking his charge by 1!
Any reason you go one short on the gravis armor models losing out on giving the whole squad T5? My experience is they still get wiped too easily but the T5 on the five Intercessors before I have to start pulling Aggressors is very noticeable.
Rogerio134134 wrote: Having plenty of joy with my Primaris kill team containing 5 intercessors, 3 aggressors and and inceptor. Stick them in the teleport with a squad of 9 as/SB vets and a jump captain and you've got some real crazy anti infantry fire. Played last night and they smashed a unit of 30 boys and a weirdboy as they landed and then in the following turn destroyed a squad of Ork bikes in combat.
Stem the green tide is utterly amazing, had 5 mega armour nobz jump behind me then played the strat as they charged my redemptor, he then killed one and he ended up taking his charge by 1!
Any reason you go one short on the gravis armor models losing out on giving the whole squad T5? My experience is they still get wiped too easily but the T5 on the five Intercessors before I have to start pulling Aggressors is very noticeable.
Just the models I have painted up and have available, however I am in the process of painting 3 more Inceptors so will probably put one into the squad!
Nope. Durability versus high quality fire is Deathwatch's strength. Mobility problems, less than stellar anti-tank, vulnerability to buckets of dice and mortal wounds are the drawbacks.
We spend upwards of 200 points for a fully kitted out Veteran squad. That's more than most tanks for other factions.
So, I currently run 1 squad of 8 Vets with SS/SBs, and they are like paper people. They get charged by a rhino, and then a squad of CSMs, and they are dust. They can't do melee and they have zero anti tank, so I don't feel bad using them.
Intercessors on the other hand, I run three squads of 5 Ints ad 5 Hellblasters, and the 10 wound meat shield surrounding the HB's make them pretty resilient. They also die to anything that gets in melee though.
I don't really ever feel "bad" or "that guyish" as Deathwatch. They've got some pretty killer combos, but let's not go overboard here. They aren't 3 squads of Jet Bikes, or a Reaper spam.
Deathwatch being Deathwatch isn't broken. Idiots who don't bring heavy support or transports to soak up overwatch deserve to lose.
I run pure Deathwatch and have been doing ok, played a relatively poor chaos player recently and hammered him twice then played orks last week and had a very even game. Stem the green tide is amazing, he used da jump on a squad of mega nobz to get them behind my redemptor and I managed to use the strat and killed 1 of them stopping the charge. My opponent was absolutely furious it was great.
My main tactic is to use my main force as a mobile castle with 2 Primaris kill teams and 3 dreads with the repulsor and characters. In reserve I have a smash captain along with a big Primaris kill team with intercessors and aggressors and 9 vets with storm bolters. I basically engage with the main force then deep strike behind the enemy force and catch then in a big rapid fire sandwich.
Hey i got one question of the correct use of the beacon angelis:
Use at the end of the movementphase. i always play it on a Jump Captain which i let come as shocktroop^^
The core rules says: if things happen at the same time, the current player can choose the sequence.
So i first let all my things shock at the end of movement (Stratagem and Jumppack) and then i activate with my previous shocked captain the beacon and teleport whatever of one infantary squad to him.
is this correct and legal played^^?
on my last tournament it has been banned me to do this so, because they said shocking is the last that happen in the movementphase
Hesselhof wrote: Hey i got one question of the correct use of the beacon angelis:
Use at the end of the movementphase. i always play it on a Jump Captain which i let come as shocktroop^^
The core rules says: if things happen at the same time, the current player can choose the sequence.
So i first let all my things shock at the end of movement (Stratagem and Jumppack) and then i activate with my previous shocked captain the beacon and teleport whatever of one infantary squad to him.
is this correct and legal played^^?
on my last tournament it has been banned me to do this so, because they said shocking is the last that happen in the movementphase
I would totally allow you to do this. The core rule is the main point why.
I think denying you this is a VEEEEEERY gamey decision...
I would say it is legal. Because en of movement phase but you are using abilities that activates in this moment. There is nothing writen in the Bacon Angelis rules that says anything about if the model must be before in the battlefield.
This is very interesting for me bacause in my next match I am going to use it on my Terminator Captain. If someone knows about this please let us know.
I‘d say it goes just as the core rule book rule says.
End of movement. You now have several special rules going off at the end of the movement phase. You obv. can not do all of them at once so you pick the order. 1st deep strike all units. 2nd all relics etc.
With rules lawyering like that you could deny necrons their „ctan phase“ if the player decided to deep strike his units first.
Played against a nid list with lots of big bugs yesterday and it was quite scary, my army is basically all Primaris appart from smash captain and venerable dreads. I was suprised at how amazingly effective bolt rifles with hellfire rounds just takes down anything.
Set up my gunline full of intercessors and dreads and then deepstruck a big aggressor unit and some plasma inceptors and they absolutely wrecked face.
Rogerio134134 wrote: Played against a nid list with lots of big bugs yesterday and it was quite scary, my army is basically all Primaris appart from smash captain and venerable dreads. I was suprised at how amazingly effective bolt rifles with hellfire rounds just takes down anything.
Set up my gunline full of intercessors and dreads and then deepstruck a big aggressor unit and some plasma inceptors and they absolutely wrecked face.
Yeah, when all of an army's basic infantry guns effectively become rapid fire 30" STR 14 AP-1, the Nidzilla player is gonna have a really bad time.
Tau is also fun in this regard since most of their suits don't have the vehicle keyword.
Rogerio134134 wrote: Played against a nid list with lots of big bugs yesterday and it was quite scary, my army is basically all Primaris appart from smash captain and venerable dreads. I was suprised at how amazingly effective bolt rifles with hellfire rounds just takes down anything.
Set up my gunline full of intercessors and dreads and then deepstruck a big aggressor unit and some plasma inceptors and they absolutely wrecked face.
Yeah, when all of an army's basic infantry guns effectively become rapid fire 30" STR 14 AP-1, the Nidzilla player is gonna have a really bad time.
Tau is also fun in this regard since most of their suits don't have the vehicle keyword.
Yup! Really considering having even more intercessors in the list they are just all stars against everyone with hellfire ammo.
Rogerio134134 wrote: Played against a nid list with lots of big bugs yesterday and it was quite scary, my army is basically all Primaris appart from smash captain and venerable dreads. I was suprised at how amazingly effective bolt rifles with hellfire rounds just takes down anything.
Set up my gunline full of intercessors and dreads and then deepstruck a big aggressor unit and some plasma inceptors and they absolutely wrecked face.
Yeah, when all of an army's basic infantry guns effectively become rapid fire 30" STR 14 AP-1, the Nidzilla player is gonna have a really bad time.
Tau is also fun in this regard since most of their suits don't have the vehicle keyword.
Yup! Really considering having even more intercessors in the list they are just all stars against everyone with hellfire ammo.
Yes, Carnifexes, Trygons, Hive Tyrants really hate those poison rounds with AP-1. But I am afraid that You might not be that joyful If you run into Nidz playing Genestealer - Hiveguards - Venomthrope combo. Hiveguards shoot all your inAggressors dead so the real threat of the Genestealer hordes are gone, then 60 Genestealer will charge into you with supersonic speed, tie up and kill anything they touch......
I've recently got into some deathwatch to bring as support for my Ultramarines with Gman.
What do you find to be the most effective? Assault bolters or bolt rifles? On my Ultramarines there is no debate - the rifle is superior. On DW though - Putting an aggressor in the squad you increase your threat range significantly and can still get ap-1 on your bolters or wound on 2's when necessary. With the added benefit of getting an aggressor or 2 into position.
My plan is a 7 man with 2 aggressors and 5 assault bolters.
Also whats your opinion on assault hellblasters in these units? Seems like a great combo - advance and shoot with no penalty helps you get a lot of plasma into range. At some point though you are just putting too many eggs in 1 basket. Plus leadership issues.
Xenomancers wrote: I've recently got into some deathwatch to bring as support for my Ultramarines with Gman.
What do you find to be the most effective? Assault bolters or bolt rifles? On my Ultramarines there is no debate - the rifle is superior. On DW though - Putting an aggressor in the squad you increase your threat range significantly and can still get ap-1 on your bolters or wound on 2's when necessary. With the added benefit of getting an aggressor or 2 into position.
It depends entirely what you need the unit to do. That's the beauty of DW Kill Teams, they can be kitted for nearly any role, and do those roles pretty damn well.
A block of 10 intercessors in backfield cover lobbing shots downrange with rifles is damn hard to shift, and with the beta bolter rule puts out a serious amount of firepower with SIA. At the same time, skirmish teams of 5 Auto Bolters plus an Aggressor running midfield do alright.
The big issue is that they're both outclassed by Veteran options in nearly all respects. Stalker Boltgun vets have near identical offensive capacity, plus the ability to take storm shields. Combat squad off a five pack of 3 bikes and 2 VanVets and you've got a T5 skirmish squad that moves 12 inches and is packing storm bolter equivalents and storm shields.
Also whats your opinion on assault hellblasters in these units? Seems like a great combo - advance and shoot with no penalty helps you get a lot of plasma into range. At some point though you are just putting too many eggs in 1 basket. Plus leadership issues.
Hellblasters are great for insertion from Deep strike (or via the Beacon), not for skirmishing. S7 really hurts the squad's anti-armor capacity, and DW dont need plasma to deal with non-vehicles.
So just deep strike the hell blasters. Can already do that with plasma interceptors though for 0 CP and better range. Does give you 4 more wounds though I guess.
Xenomancers wrote: So just deep strike the hell blasters. Can already do that with plasma interceptors though for 0 CP and better range. Does give you 4 more wounds though I guess.
Could just go with an Intercessor squad with 5 Intercessors and 4/5 Hellblasters (add an inceptor if you want to fall back and still shoot). Tons of ablative wounds for your plasma, which definitely helps compared to barebones Inceptors.
One issue I've always had with running big squads is the leadership 8 problems. It's so easy to just kill the 5 intercessors leaving the 5 hellblasters/aggressors at leadership 7 losing boys a 3+.
Xenomancers wrote: So just deep strike the hell blasters. Can already do that with plasma interceptors though for 0 CP and better range. Does give you 4 more wounds though I guess.
Could just go with an Intercessor squad with 5 Intercessors and 4/5 Hellblasters (add an inceptor if you want to fall back and still shoot). Tons of ablative wounds for your plasma, which definitely helps compared to barebones Inceptors.
That is one way to do it - really expensive though.
I've always liked the idea of utilizing Combat squads for DW Intercessors. 6 Intercessor + 4 Plasma Inceptors splits nicely into two units with 3/2 each. Gives you 3 models worth in each unit as casualties before you reach the Inceptors, and after you lose the 1st T4 model, the unit jumps to T5 Have a jump Captian tag along for reroll 1s.
If I was going to do all Primaris DW, I would do at least 2 units like this. My other 4 Troops (because you need 6 total for 2 Battalions) would likely be cheap(ish) 5-man Intercessor, potentially with a few Hellblasters thrown in as a 6th
I usually put a plasma/intercessor squad in the repulsor and the other one on foot with the 7 intercessor squad with the dread and characters as a gunline. This draws the enemy in and I can soften the enemy up a bit.
In reserve I have the killteam with intercessors and aggressors, plasma inceptors and the smash captain. I use them as a deepstrike bomb to come in at an enemy weak point and clear away some tough units and they benefit from the smash captains reroll 1 aura too. It's quite effective!
kaiservonhugal wrote: Has anyone any experience running vet squads with plasma rifles and Storm shields with a vanguard vet?
They're my default Vet team. 4x plasma / SS, 3x SS/SB, VanVet BP/SS, Bike and Termie.
These lads do serious work. Im running 2-3 of these squads per game right now.
I'd probably go with combi-plasma. Same price, and when you don't need the extra strength and damage from overcharge you can fire both weapons at once. Even with the -1 to hit, it's pretty close to the value you'd get out of a storm bolter against most 1w units.
"Page 72 – Veterans
Replace the Mixed Units ability with the following:
‘Mixed Unit: A unit of Veterans can contain models with
different Toughness characteristics. If this is the case,
use the Toughness characteristic of the majority of the
models in the unit when the enemy makes wound rolls
against it. If there is no majority, the Deathwatch player
can choose which of the values is used."
So... veterans get T5 if they have 1 bike in the unit? but intercessors with agressors/inceptors dont for some arbitrary reason?
"Page 72 – Veterans
Replace the Mixed Units ability with the following:
‘Mixed Unit: A unit of Veterans can contain models with
different Toughness characteristics. If this is the case,
use the Toughness characteristic of the majority of the
models in the unit when the enemy makes wound rolls
against it. If there is no majority, the Deathwatch player
can choose which of the values is used."
So... veterans get T5 if they have 1 bike in the unit? but intercessors with agressors/inceptors dont for some arbitrary reason?
Keyword is majority here.
Unless your unit is 2 models with 1 bike. Then 1 bike is not a majority
The main thing this affects for me is Bike squads, was really nice double tapping at 30 inches. I honestly didn't really use Bolter disipline that much on vet squads. Really it just reverts us back to immediately after CA 2018, which is fine, we were good then, still good now.
At least now whenever other Marine players complain that Deathwatch are too good we can counter with the whole Bolter rule thing.
The thing that gets on my nerves is the fact you can't use beta bolters on adeptus astartes vehicles anymore. My Repulsor was loving it with 3 storm bolters... 18 shots from Gatling cannons, 2 lascannon shots 3 heavy stubber and on top of that krakstorm and 12 storm bolter shots!
Yeah, can we at least stop to feel bad for the Corvus ? Beta bolter was aiding it too, and now its back to well where it was. Which makes me mad because I love them. I pray each day for just giving it back the machine spirit. For the love of emperor and hate of the xenos.
Is this correct that i can still use rapid fire with my storm bolters and SIA without the new bolter rules in half range, like the core rules of rapid dire says?
Hesselhof wrote: Is this correct that i can still use rapid fire with my storm bolters and SIA without the new bolter rules in half range, like the core rules of rapid dire says?
Why wouldn't you be able to? They are still rapid fire weapons. Can you still use rapid fire with Combi-plasma or plasma guns? (Yes, yes you can). They didn't change the weapon type or anything, so rapid fire works exactly how it always has.
This adds another line on the “what ammo do I use” matrix. I know classically a good rule of thumb was to use the ammo that gave you more shots, when one was in double tap range and the others were not. Is it worth shooting basic ammo at max range when you can bolter drill it? Against what targets? More relevant for the platforms that can always get the shots.
Nevelon wrote: This adds another line on the “what ammo do I use” matrix. I know classically a good rule of thumb was to use the ammo that gave you more shots, when one was in double tap range and the others were not. Is it worth shooting basic ammo at max range when you can bolter drill it? Against what targets? More relevant for the platforms that can always get the shots.
Probably just useful when shooting the weakest of chaff units, Gretchen, guard, etc. Anything better than T3 5+ is likely going to be better served with Hellfire or Vengeance, or obviously Kraken if you need the range.
Just like before though, sitting still with expensive DW squads will probably be a losing strategy, with a few exceptions.
Just like before though, sitting still with expensive DW squads will probably be a losing strategy, with a few exceptions.
Indeed. Kill Teams want to be on the bounce and at medium to short ranges. Those that don't (Stalker boltgun + Missile) dont benefit from bolter discipline anyway.
Just like before though, sitting still with expensive DW squads will probably be a losing strategy, with a few exceptions.
Indeed. Kill Teams want to be on the bounce and at medium to short ranges. Those that don't (Stalker boltgun + Missile) dont benefit from bolter discipline anyway.
Word of the wise. Deep strike kill teams and move them about the board like the tactical nuisance they are. I never really utilized the bolter discipline since I always push my deep striking kill teams into double tapping range of anything scary and tying up any chaff screen and tanks.
Another interesting thing to note is that Tome of Ectoclades can now extend mission tactics to any non-infantry/dreadnought deathwatch units, i.e. Fire Raptor or perhaps spartan assault tank re-rolling 1s to wound with 8 lascannons? This can be exploited very effectively and efficiently with jump captain.
Another interesting thing to note is that Tome of Ectoclades can now extend mission tactics to any non-infantry/dreadnought deathwatch units, i.e. Fire Raptor or perhaps spartan assault tank re-rolling 1s to wound with 8 lascannons? This can be exploited very effectively and efficiently with jump captain.
The Tome of Shootius Maximus has gotten hilariously more Shooty.
Also of note, FW Astartes Armor units inherit the <DEATHWATCH> keyword, so a cappy packing the tome is in essence a mini-Guilliman as their reroll 1s to hit aura will also work.
Eldarain wrote: So Veterans forget how to be disciplined with their bolters when using SIA? GW can't get out of their own way sometimes.
Maybe they're more disciplined with their SIA because it's expensive and limited, hence why they shoot less often.
As an aside, I'm going to be so irrationally annoyed by the consistent misuse of Bolter Drill as the name of the rule by everyone other than this Xeno loving user here. It's Bolter Discipline, you (other) heretics!
Eldarain wrote: So Veterans forget how to be disciplined with their bolters when using SIA? GW can't get out of their own way sometimes.
Maybe they're more disciplined with their SIA because it's expensive and limited, hence why they shoot less often.
As an aside, I'm going to be so irrationally annoyed by the consistent misuse of Bolter Drill as the name of the rule. It's Bolter Discipline, you heretics!
Indeed this is an acceptable fluff explanation. We also would accept that shooting special ammo that isn't traditional bolt rounds throws off that discipline/training *just* enough (i.e. requires the wielder to use different training to use effectively) to not be compatible with Bolter Discipline.
So in addition to being a good change for eh health of the game, there are acceptable explanation to "fluff" away why it works the way it does. Ergo, good job GW.
Page 95 – Teleportarium
Replace the second sentence with the following:
‘For each CP spent on this Stratagem you can set up either
one Deathwatch unit that only contains Infantry models
or one Deathwatch Dreadnought in a teleportarium
chamber instead of placing it on the battlefield.’
So no jumpack and bikers in a deepstriking squad? Or has that always been the case?
I think they’re allowed as it says to only count bikers and jet packs for transport purposes and to otherwise treat the whole unit as infantry? But then I’ve been wrong a lot before.
Page 95 – Teleportarium
Replace the second sentence with the following:
‘For each CP spent on this Stratagem you can set up either
one Deathwatch unit that only contains Infantry models
or one Deathwatch Dreadnought in a teleportarium
chamber instead of placing it on the battlefield.’
So no jumpack and bikers in a deepstriking squad? Or has that always been the case?
No bikes, but jump pack is still ok. Because in the Veteran entry, it explicitly says bikes lose the Infantry keyword. So yeah, can't deep strike veterans containing bikes I guess, not a huge issue but a stealth nerf none the less
Page 95 – Teleportarium
Replace the second sentence with the following:
‘For each CP spent on this Stratagem you can set up either
one Deathwatch unit that only contains Infantry models
or one Deathwatch Dreadnought in a teleportarium
chamber instead of placing it on the battlefield.’
So no jumpack and bikers in a deepstriking squad? Or has that always been the case?
No bikes, but jump pack is still ok. Because in the Veteran entry, it explicitly says bikes lose the Infantry keyword. So yeah, can't deep strike veterans containing bikes I guess, not a huge issue but a stealth nerf none the less
It explicitly says Bikers count as Bikers for purposes of transports and bolster disc. It then says they count as infantry for setup and movement.
ImPhaeronWeasel wrote: Now with the castellan nerfed and RIS being capped at 4++, do you think we‘ll see more infantry lists? (3 big squads of Vets and maybe bikes).
Maybe. Although I could just as easily see more vehicle heavy lists. Those lists that took a Castellan and might now look for alternatives might go with 2 Crusaders instead, or add some IG tanks. In all, though I think it will be a wash for now. DW prefer to be mostly Infantry and prefer to face mostly Infantry. So we'll see.
Do you deepstrike all your VetSquads( whatever the loadout)? Or do you keep them in a bubble with the watchmaster?
Ive seen a lot of people just having 3 identical squads (mostly SS/SB combo) and no watchmaster.
Both?
Personally I have a Jump Captain with the Beacon move up (possible Advance if needed) and pull a specific unit forward T1.
The Watchmaster tries to stay in the middle of as many units and I try to trail models back to keep in his aura.
That is what makes mixed units so fun IMO. Have a Bike per unit to zip close for Assaults, a could VVs to string the coherency back to the rest of the unit and possible a Terminator in the rear to stay within the WatchMaster's aura
Do you deepstrike all your VetSquads( whatever the loadout)? Or do you keep them in a bubble with the watchmaster?
Ive seen a lot of people just having 3 identical squads (mostly SS/SB combo) and no watchmaster.
Depends on the game. Usually keep at least 1 in deepstrike, occasionally 3. IMO you almost always want at least one unit in the sky to keep your opponent honest, him knowing he has ~36-40 SIA shots dropping in anywhere makes sure he can't afford to ignore backfield stuff and screening.
To always deepstrike a certain number of units signals lack of creativity and/or critical thinking. Always be looking for instances where you vary your tactics.
I always leave in DS my 2 Veteran squads. They allow me to have a big flexibility and deploy them where and when I need them more. You feel you opponent is worried about those squads because mostly he doens´t know where you will place them. They are my favourite unit and they give me the best results in my army.
Same here, in the most of my games i DS 2 Vet Squads (3 Chainsword + SB, 5 SB & SS, 1 Termi Mace & SS, 1 VV 2 Bolt Pistols) and if i play him, which i do rly often^^, my lovley Leviathan with 2 Stormcannons
Hesselhof wrote: Same here, in the most of my games i DS 2 Vet Squads (3 Chainsword + SB, 5 SB & SS, 1 Termi Mace & SS, 1 VV 2 Bolt Pistols) and if i play him, which i do rly often^^, my lovley Leviathan with 2 Stormcannons
New to 8th edition. Is there really no reason to use Intercessors? They statistically beat that squad for points against teach other and will do better against 0 amp weapons or -1 weapons. For about 40 points less you could deep strike 10 Intercessors that give off 20 shots with vengeance rounds. That puts the stalker Bolter at -3AP which makes it equivalent to about 30 shots from storm bolsters against anything that is 2+ to 4+ saves. If we need the fly ability we can replace one of the Intercessors for a plasma inception and end up with the same cost as well as an awesome 4x plasma shots. If you want distance using kraken could give you an 18” gap for rapid fire at -2ap in order to stay safe from perhaps 12” rapid fire 2D weapons that lay behind your primary target.
Feels like 20 wounds could be just as useful depending On the matchup.
Hesselhof wrote: Same here, in the most of my games i DS 2 Vet Squads (3 Chainsword + SB, 5 SB & SS, 1 Termi Mace & SS, 1 VV 2 Bolt Pistols) and if i play him, which i do rly often^^, my lovley Leviathan with 2 Stormcannons
New to 8th edition. Is there really no reason to use Intercessors? They statistically beat that squad for points against teach other and will do better against 0 amp weapons or -1 weapons. For about 40 points less you could deep strike 10 Intercessors that give off 20 shots with vengeance rounds. That puts the stalker Bolter at -3AP which makes it equivalent to about 30 shots from storm bolsters against anything that is 2+ to 4+ saves. If we need the fly ability we can replace one of the Intercessors for a plasma inception and end up with the same cost as well as an awesome 4x plasma shots. If you want distance using kraken could give you an 18” gap for rapid fire at -2ap in order to stay safe from perhaps 12” rapid fire 2D weapons that lay behind your primary target.
Feels like 20 wounds could be just as useful depending On the matchup.
Not sure what Stalker bolter you're talking about, the Primaris Stalker bolter is complete garbage.
The main issues with Intercessors are A) no invulns available, B) the prevalence of D2 weapons (Tau, Disintegrators, Knight weapons) at times make those extra wounds a waste of points, and C) less variability, bonuses, and options than Vet squads.
Bottom line is
Vet squads get: immune to morale, fall back and shoot and charge, heroic intervention, 3+ invulns, more shots, greater charge radius.
Intercessor squads get: move or advance without shooting penalty, fall back and shoot. I guess Shock grenades too, but I have yet to see anyone actually get those to consistently work due to the range.
Best case scenario IMO is Intercessors are ok as a backline firesupport/objective holder, or as a slightly more mobile firebase in Intercessor/Aggressor squads, but even then their jobs can be filled just as well or better with Vet squads. Maybe if the Shadowspear units add some abilities to mixed squads they'll be a better pick.
Hesselhof wrote: Same here, in the most of my games i DS 2 Vet Squads (3 Chainsword + SB, 5 SB & SS, 1 Termi Mace & SS, 1 VV 2 Bolt Pistols) and if i play him, which i do rly often^^, my lovley Leviathan with 2 Stormcannons
New to 8th edition. Is there really no reason to use Intercessors? They statistically beat that squad for points against teach other and will do better against 0 amp weapons or -1 weapons. For about 40 points less you could deep strike 10 Intercessors that give off 20 shots with vengeance rounds. That puts the bolt rifle at -3AP which makes it equivalent to about 30 shots from storm bolsters against anything that is 2+ to 4+ saves. If we need the fly ability we can replace one of the Intercessors for a plasma inception and end up with the same cost as well as an awesome 4x plasma shots. If you want distance using kraken could give you an 18” gap for rapid fire at -2ap in order to stay safe from perhaps 12” rapid fire 2D weapons that lay behind your primary target.
Feels like 20 wounds could be just as useful depending On the matchup.
Not sure what Stalker bolter you're talking about, the Primaris Stalker bolter is complete garbage.
The main issues with Intercessors are A) no invulns available, B) the prevalence of D2 weapons (Tau, Disintegrators, Knight weapons) at times make those extra wounds a waste of points, and C) less variability, bonuses, and options than Vet squads.
Bottom line is
Vet squads get: immune to morale, fall back and shoot and charge, heroic intervention, 3+ invulns, more shots, greater charge radius.
Intercessor squads get: move or advance without shooting penalty, fall back and shoot. I guess Shock grenades too, but I have yet to see anyone actually get those to consistently work due to the range.
Best case scenario IMO is Intercessors are ok as a backline firesupport/objective holder, or as a slightly more mobile firebase in Intercessor/Aggressor squads, but even then their jobs can be filled just as well or better with Vet squads. Maybe if the Shadowspear units add some abilities to mixed squads they'll be a better pick.
Sorry was referring to bolt rifles.H
As for Tau and Knights, that seems to be what I was referring to in that the advantage of single would 3++ seems quite match specific. Against bolters and many low AP one would attacks, it doesn’t actually do much.
It seems your squad is referring to terminator, bike, Vanguard, black shield, Sergant and 5 vets. Yes there are lots of weapons that have 2D. But this vet squad seems extremely vulnerable to mortal wounds and horde clearing fire that doesn’t care for invulnerability.
I am more curious about this close combat focus. I did not realize that veteran squads were often used for charging into melee. Often deep strike leaves you more than 9 inches away so you would need a 10 on the charge to reach when you land. You are most likely going to just give them a free overwatch shot. Not very familiar with this tactic.
If we are talking about just mobility without close combat, the superior range of bolt rifles also makes up for that anyways. I’ve watched a few battle reports and haven’t seen any close combat charges. Guess an inceptor will only give you half that extra distance On the first sling shot but you may get two chances at a mortal wound.
And again, the Intercessors squad has 4 plasma shots which is already more than enough to close damage gap between the squads. The idea that the storm bolters are way stronger is more intuitive than mathematical because 36 sounds bigger than 22 shots irregardless of AP difference and range advantages.
Oh yes, you only need to be within an inch. Forgot about that. Still not sure if that is the preferred tactic then 1. If you shoot that nearby squad, assuming you kill anything and they don’t want to be charged, they could just take a few models from the closest spots.
As for Tau and Knights, that seems to be what I was referring to in that the advantage of single would 3++ seems quite match specific. Against bolters and many low AP one would attacks, it doesn’t actually do much.
This is why you have a Terminator in the squad, and cover hop. 2+ armor for all your bolter and flashlight shrugging needs. Plus morale immunity.
It seems your squad is referring to terminator, bike, Vanguard, black shield, Sergant and 5 vets. Yes there are lots of weapons that have 2D. But this vet squad seems extremely vulnerable to mortal wounds and horde clearing fire that doesn’t care for invulnerability.
Mortal wounds are a concern, but there are ways of mitigating that. Fortis teams have no defense against multi-damage high AP weaponry.
I am more curious about this close combat focus. I did not realize that veteran squads were often used for charging into melee. Often deep strike leaves you more than 9 inches away so you would need a 10 on the charge to reach when you land. You are most likely going to just give them a free overwatch shot. Not very familiar with this tactic.
Veteran teams dont want to be in melee. The fall back and shoot/charge is to prevent them from being tied up in melee by enemy chaff units. It means the only way to stop a Deathwatch squad from shooting is to either fully wrap it up, or destroy it. Both of which take considerable resources.
If we are talking about just mobility without close combat, the superior range of bolt rifles also makes up for that anyways. I’ve watched a few battle reports and haven’t seen any close combat charges. Guess an inceptor will only give you half that extra distance On the first sling shot but you may get two chances at a mortal wound.
Inceptor mortal wound output is negligble, and 6" of extra range on the Bolt Rifle is more than mitigated by the double output under 15 inches from the Storm Bolter.
And again, the Intercessors squad has 4 plasma shots which is already more than enough to close damage gap between the squads. The idea that the storm bolters are way stronger is more intuitive than mathematical because 36 sounds bigger than 22 shots irregardless of AP difference and range advantages.
Vets can take a whole host of special and heavy weapons, including plasma. They wont get the tasty AP-4 of Primaris plasma rifles, but their resilience more than makes up for it.
In short, Intercessor squads can do work, but with the change to bolter discipline, nothing beats the resilience and mid-range firepower of Veterans right now. If you want long range firepower, give a squad or two of Veterans Stalker Boltguns and Missile Launchers. They'll lock down an entire side of the board.
Hmm that’s very interesting. Didn’t know about moral immunity but that sounds super good. I feel like one terminator is still to thin of a line before conventional weak weapons get through the gates. I’m assuming if you used the 2+ save the wounds that go through must be allocated to the terminator?
It would be very cool to see what other weapons I could take instead of SB as well because there certainly is something monotonous about it. I also realized, I have no idea where to get storm bolters from... they don’t come in anything except terminators.
GameDadZ wrote: Hmm that’s very interesting. Didn’t know about moral immunity but that sounds super good. I feel like one terminator is still to thin of a line before conventional weak weapons get through the gates. I’m assuming if you used the 2+ save the wounds that go through must be allocated to the terminator?
Correct, thats why cover is so important. AP0 wounds that make it through can then be allocated to any unit in the squad instead of the termie while retaining the 2+ profile.
GameDadZ wrote: It would be very cool to see what other weapons I could take instead of SB as well because there certainly is something monotonous about it. I also realized, I have no idea where to get storm bolters from... they don’t come in anything except terminators.
Getting bits for a WYSIWYG Veteran army is a pain. The easier route is simply convert primaris and use reasonable counts-as logic. Bonus points cause the end result is far more customizeable from a bits compatibility standpoint (for instance both Custodes and AoS Sigmarine parts are fully compatible with Primaris bodies, not to mention things like Rievers, Hellblasters and eventually Vanguard models), and dont look like muppets.
Veterans are so much better tan Primaris that there is nothing to discuss about them. I stopped playing my veterans for a couple of games because they did so much pain that I only Heard my friends crying arround.
And the Fragcannons are one of the best weapons I have ever seen. They are the definition of pain and terror. You see your rival going as far as posible of your Vets that you have to laugh.
In resume, veterans are funny to play, they have so much options and DS them gives you a lot of versatility.
Alex_85 wrote: eterans are so much better tan Primaris that there is nothing to discuss about them. I stopped playing my veterans for a couple of games because they did so much pain that I only Heard my friends crying arround.
And the Fragcannons are one of the best weapons I have ever seen. They are the definition of pain and terror. You see your rival going as far as posible of your Vets that you have to laugh.
In resume, veterans are funny to play, they have so much options and DS them gives you a lot of versatility.
The moment you start getting away from the storm shield/storm bolter Vets, the more like the Primaris you become - less efficient. Those options become somewhat meaningless when there's such a massively superior choice in all situations, so technically that Vet build is so much better than all other Vet builds that there's nothing to discuss about them either.
While the codex is one of the more competitive Astartes books today, that success is matched only by the monumental failure in killing the truly iconic DW themes. It's the illusion of choice. You can take a ton of different weapons in a ton of different combinations, customizing your Vet squads for a variety of purposes, but to do so is to be just as inefficient with your list building as adding Primaris is.
RogueApiary wrote: The third ranked ITC Deathwatch player runs pure Primaris. Dunno what he's doing, but he must have found some way to get good use out of them.
Two Intercessor/Hellblaster units and one auto bolt rifle unit w/ 3 Aggressors, watch master, and smash captain. Two Xiphons as well. The rest in AM Emperor's wrath and an assassin.
RogueApiary wrote: The third ranked ITC Deathwatch player runs pure Primaris. Dunno what he's doing, but he must have found some way to get good use out of them.
Inefficient and ineffective are not 1:1 variables in this case. You can do quite a lot with Primaris DW. Veterans simply do it better in the post CA2018 environment.
GameDadZ wrote: Hmm that’s very interesting. Didn’t know about moral immunity but that sounds super good. I feel like one terminator is still to thin of a line before conventional weak weapons get through the gates. I’m assuming if you used the 2+ save the wounds that go through must be allocated to the terminator?
Correct, thats why cover is so important. AP0 wounds that make it through can then be allocated to any unit in the squad instead of the termie while retaining the 2+ profile.
GameDadZ wrote: It would be very cool to see what other weapons I could take instead of SB as well because there certainly is something monotonous about it. I also realized, I have no idea where to get storm bolters from... they don’t come in anything except terminators.
Getting bits for a WYSIWYG Veteran army is a pain. The easier route is simply convert primaris and use reasonable counts-as logic. Bonus points cause the end result is far more customizeable from a bits compatibility standpoint (for instance both Custodes and AoS Sigmarine parts are fully compatible with Primaris bodies, not to mention things like Rievers, Hellblasters and eventually Vanguard models), and dont look like muppets.
It does bother me if I’m just slapping on bolters and calling them storm bolters. So far I’ve scavenged 3 combi
Bolters from my Tartaros squad. It is at least the same weapon with a different name. I am also getting 13 Sternguard Veterans that come with 4x storm bolters. It is certainly a pain in the ass though. Asked my local gamesworkshop to spread the news I’m buying extra Storm Bolters.
It does bother me if I’m just slapping on bolters and calling them storm bolters.
Primaris assault bolt rifles make reasonable counts-as options, especially if (like me) you convert the accompanying Primaris-scale bodies. Its not perfect, but its a compromise choice that is both visually identifiable (no scope, big magazine) and easy on the wallet. Its not perfect by any means, but it gets the job done.
I'm dusting off my Deathwatch for 8th edition. I'm getting around to painting the whole mess, and doing some conversions.
Quick question: storm bolter/storm shield veterans seem to be the way to go now. Does it make any sense to make one of them a terminator armed with a storm bolter and storm shield? A terminator without a power weapon just feels wrong, but he does add an extra wound and makes the squad immune from moral tests.
Quick question: storm bolter/storm shield veterans seem to be the way to go now. Does it make any sense to make one of them a terminator armed with a storm bolter and storm shield? A terminator without a power weapon just feels wrong, but he does add an extra wound and makes the squad immune from moral tests.
You absolutely want to include a terminator in a squad as it imparts immunity to morale, as well as a model that can shrug off AP0 fire outside of cover (remember, you get to choose which model rolls their save against a wound). Unfortunately, they can only take a SS if they are packing a thunder hammer.
cuda1179 wrote: Darn. For some reason I was thinking storm shields were in the terminator equipment list.
The termie wargear list is...weird. To put it simply.
In all honesty though, the terminator's job is to soak AP0 fire. Putting a SS on it makes it less efficient at that job. The vets are there to haul the 3++ around.
Gonna wax cranky for a moment here, so apologies in advance.
Don't learn to play 8th with a Knight in your army. Superheavies skew games to a very serious degree, especially at the point level you're playing at. It's also not a very sporting move IMO.
Stick with the Dread for now (Twin-las VenDreads are fantastic units), and save the Knight for when you're more experienced with 8th, getting into higher point value games, or heading to tourneys.
Is taking a crusader considered bad generally? I was excited to get one because apparently fills a weakness and I actually love the models. Maybe I will do pure deathwatch first.
@creeping dementia
Seems the aggressors are preferred to the inceptors. Assuming I don’t take the crusader won’t they be like half my AT forces? I feel like assault benefit of aggressor is lost on the bolt rifles.
GameDadZ wrote: Is taking a crusader considered bad generally? I was excited to get one because apparently fills a weakness and I actually love the models. Maybe I will do pure deathwatch first.
From a competitive standpoint? No. It's a brutally efficient model that absolutely can fill the anti-armor role that DW sometimes struggles with.
From a casual play standpoint? In my opinion, yes. Knight-level chassis skew games fiercely.
If you're playing in tournament-level games where everyone is playing cuthroat maximum meta lists, by all means run one. But for friendly LGS play, its bad form to just show up and drop one. If you *really* want to run it, talk to your opponent first, and have a list ready that you can run without it.
Seems the aggressors are preferred to the inceptors. Assuming I don’t take the crusader won’t they be like half my AT forces? I feel like assault benefit of aggressor is lost on the bolt rifles.
You should absolutely bring your Inceptors, what he's talking about is including the Aggressors in your Intercessor squads so the whole lot can advance and fire without penalty. Ints obviously run with auto bolt rifles to take advantage of that.
Ah, didn’t realize knights were so OP. I also thought orks were actually one of the top tier armies so thought I might need it. Maybe I’ll forgo it this time around then.
Any general advice for a novice to avoid big noob mistakes? I’m probably gonna run the Intercessors squad with 2 aggressors and 3 inceptors. Seems like it will have great mobility but also become a meaty target. I’m guess that will actually be my deep strike squad in this instance rather than my vets considering I don’t want them to get wiped out before shooting.
GameDadZ wrote: Ah, didn’t realize knights were so OP. I also thought orks were actually one of the top tier armies so thought I might need it. Maybe I’ll forgo it this time around then.
Any general advice for a novice to avoid big noob mistakes? I’m probably gonna run the Intercessors squad with 2 aggressors and 3 inceptors. Seems like it will have great mobility but also become a meaty target. I’m guess that will actually be my deep strike squad in this instance rather than my vets considering I don’t want them to get wiped out before shooting.
Anything on the tactics end to be aware of?
Less OP now I've noticed. It's amazing the difference between 3++ and 4++ in terms of survivability. One in a 2k game should be fine without falling into that guy territory.
Lol this topic makes it sound like Knight is auto-win cheese. Isn’t the ork army suppose to be very top tier to begin with? Sounds like a bought a Crusader mostly for display now if I don’t want to piss off people.
What do you guys think of a leviathan then if I wanted to make a more pure deathwatch army? Dual Grav Flux? I really don’t like relying on too much squishy AT.
GameDadZ wrote: Lol this topic makes it sound like Knight is auto-win cheese. Isn’t the ork army suppose to be very top tier to begin with? Sounds like a bought a Crusader mostly for display now if I don’t want to piss off people.
What do you guys think of a leviathan then if I wanted to make a more pure deathwatch army? Dual Grav Flux? I really don’t like relying on too much squishy AT.
Storm Cannon Array x2 on Leviathan, even as AT, I believe. However, I say bring the Knight. 1 Knight isn't being TFG at all. I don't own a Knight, myself, but can handle them just fine in general.
GameDadZ wrote: Lol this topic makes it sound like Knight is auto-win cheese. Isn’t the ork army suppose to be very top tier to begin with? Sounds like a bought a Crusader mostly for display now if I don’t want to piss off people.
What do you guys think of a leviathan then if I wanted to make a more pure deathwatch army? Dual Grav Flux? I really don’t like relying on too much squishy AT.
Double storm cannons or bust. The other weapons options can't keep up with the consistency of not having to deal with random shots/dmg and better range, especially with the +1 to wound strat that effectively makes them Str 8.
GameDadZ wrote: Lol this topic makes it sound like Knight is auto-win cheese. Isn’t the ork army suppose to be very top tier to begin with? Sounds like a bought a Crusader mostly for display now if I don’t want to piss off people.
What do you guys think of a leviathan then if I wanted to make a more pure deathwatch army? Dual Grav Flux? I really don’t like relying on too much squishy AT.
Double storm cannons or bust. The other weapons options can't keep up with the consistency of not having to deal with random shots/dmg and better range, especially with the +1 to wound strat that effectively makes them Str 8.
Better than S8, actually-they wound up to T13 on 4s, and more importantly, up to T6 on 2s.
Edit: I see it is the Doctrines. That’s a cool way to think about it except it does cost 2CP. Considering the army I’m about to field, any suggestions on where I should be spending all that CP? Seems pretty limited. 5 for battalion and 3 from battle forged. Using two for deep striking and another for a relic I’m guessing.
I'm thinking of adding a battalion detachment of deathwatch to my guard list. I bought the codex, flipped through it briefly and got really hung up on veterans with stormbolters (only because of the special issue ammo). So then I went over to the GW website and started looking for a box of veterans...am I missing something? I didn't see any. I do own a ton of grey knights which are doing nothing so I could lop off swords and use them I guess.
necron99 wrote: I'm thinking of adding a battalion detachment of deathwatch to my guard list. I bought the codex, flipped through it briefly and got really hung up on veterans with stormbolters (only because of the special issue ammo). So then I went over to the GW website and started looking for a box of veterans...am I missing something? I didn't see any. I do own a ton of grey knights which are doing nothing so I could lop off swords and use them I guess.
Deathwatch Kill Team is the basic power armor troop.
Although GKs (or at least a lot of their bits) could get the job done. I know I just picked up a box of GK terminators to add a few to my vet squads.
necron99 wrote: I'm thinking of adding a battalion detachment of deathwatch to my guard list. I bought the codex, flipped through it briefly and got really hung up on veterans with stormbolters (only because of the special issue ammo). So then I went over to the GW website and started looking for a box of veterans...am I missing something? I didn't see any. I do own a ton of grey knights which are doing nothing so I could lop off swords and use them I guess.
Deathwatch Kill Team is the basic power armor troop.
Although GKs (or at least a lot of their bits) could get the job done. I know I just picked up a box of GK terminators to add a few to my vet squads.
I was curious because the kill team squad just seemed like a mix of stuff and I didn't see any stormbolters listed as included weapons
necron99 wrote: I'm thinking of adding a battalion detachment of deathwatch to my guard list. I bought the codex, flipped through it briefly and got really hung up on veterans with stormbolters (only because of the special issue ammo). So then I went over to the GW website and started looking for a box of veterans...am I missing something? I didn't see any. I do own a ton of grey knights which are doing nothing so I could lop off swords and use them I guess.
Deathwatch Kill Team is the basic power armor troop.
Although GKs (or at least a lot of their bits) could get the job done. I know I just picked up a box of GK terminators to add a few to my vet squads.
I was curious because the kill team squad just seemed like a mix of stuff and I didn't see any stormbolters listed as included weapons
You are not going to be able to make a pure SB squad out of one box. I honestly forget if/how many are in the basic kill team box.
I’m in the process of building a SB vet squad myself. Luckily, I’ve got a deep bits box and marines are very interchangeable. It’s not something you can buy off the rack unfortunately.
Eldarain wrote: Which will screw us all eventually as they will sooner remove the option tham recut such a new kit.
Or maybe realize that not everyone runs for 3rd party, and that some people will buy GK/sternguard/etc boxes to get the parts they need. So cross kit bits have the potential to increase sales, not reduce them.
What's astounding is that they haven't removed stormbolters from Deathwatch options already (or at least not allow it to use SIA). SBs are not on the sprue (no model, no rules) and they clearly become the default option for Deathwatch over any other weapon. So you have these sweet looking bolters in the kit, plus lots of other options, and nobody wants to use them, lol.
i think I'm personally going to just stick to 2 SB squads as can really see this being changed in the future. I already have a squad of bolter/SS dudes that I don't want to tear apart, so I generally use them with my hvy weapon teams (frag cannons).
If the points are alright I think it might be an interesting option for a pure DW list.
Points will tell all.
Fundamentally it does the same job as the old repulsor loaded up with lascannons. If it can be more point effective AV than that, it has a place. Or if you think it looks cooler, that will earn it a place as well.
It does offer up some nice long range AV firepower, but still has a lot of baggage attached.
Also one of the lascanons is only 24“ so I definitely see the new repulsor being better AT than the old one BUT as you said points will tell more
No arguments that it’s not better at the job. That gun is pretty sweet. But to get those 4 shots it can’t move much (although has better range, so probably a wash most of the time).
I’ve not seen any numbers on it’s cargo, besides “reduced” so there is that as well. But with a lower capacity and not wanting to move, it’s probably pretty useless as a taxi. Except maybe starting some buff characters inside to lower drops.
Being static is also going to hurt the buckets of secondary guns it has Is it going to have enough targets? If not, that’s going to reduce its efficiency. The basic repulsor is more likely to be up close, dropping off troops a/o using the lastalon. Of course, Deathwatch has less needs for all that random bolter fire then normal marines.
Overall it’s a very mixed tank. It has both long range and point blank firepower. It can move and shoot without problems, but gains a boost for sitting still. It has cargo, but enough to mater? T8 is rugged, but 3+ and no invuln means any dedicated AV fire is going to chew it apart. The way GW prices flexibility but rewards specialization does not give me high hopes for how efficient this guy is going to be. I do think it will be perfectly fine in a more casual setting. It’s got the tools to do the jobs it wants to, so should be effective.
So I finally figured out my vet loadout I'm going to use for a few tournies. It is not all SB/SS (even though I understand the efficiency of doing so). I have 2 KTs that will go into deepstrike, each 9 strong. Sgt w Xenoblade and SB, 4 SB/SS, 1 Frag cannon, 1 terminator with SB/PM, 1 bike with PM, 1 Vanvet with SS/bp. Can't take a sgt without a Xeno blade, just feels wrong I still like the Frag Cannon option on one dude as the shell is still good round from deepstrike on tougher targets before you get to within 8". They will be accompanied by a JPTH/SS capt. On the ground, I'll have a Watchmaster and another KT, this one equipped Sgt with SB/PS, 4 bolter/SS, 2 Fragcannons, terminator with SB/PF, and vanvet with SS/bp. I just don't have the desire to hunt down more SS right now or tear apart the 4 bolter/SS I already have painted, not to mention having way more vets than I could ever need.
Anyway, I figure I'll use the ground squad as a Fire Brigade unit for Turn 1 or 2 (until my reserves arrive) in case I face a melee army that gets into my lines quickly (rest of my army is Knight Crusader, 2 helverins, Loyal 32 and an assassin). I should be able to position the teleport homers in places that can give me some maneuverability in the first few turns. There is something to be said about putting all the frag cannons in this unit, but that seems a little too much eggs in one basket for me.
Had another game with my all Primaris Deathwatch last night against a Daemon engine heavy CSM list led by Abbadon himself. He had a Kytan, lord discordant, 2 defilers and a forgefiend so I was quite concerned.
I am always suprised however by how effective teleport strat is to us, I kept a solid gunline of 3 intercessor squads with a repulsor loaded with hellblasters and 2 dreads in the centre which drew him onto me. I kept in reserve a kill team with 5 intercessors mixed in with aggressors and inceptors, also in reserve was a squad of plasma inceptors (incredible btw) and a smash captain.
The way the game panned out was he came toward me ina big line, I then deepstruck units onto either flank and basically surrounded and destroyed his whole army with plasma fire. Teleport strat and the doctrines with +1 to would are definitely the best things we have.
Finally able to get back in with my Primaris deathwatch, but the last time I played was before Bolter Discipline and the latest point drops/knight nerfs. How are people running Primaris Deathwatch these days? Are people still teleporting a bunch of Dreadnoughts in now that the turn 1 deploy from reserves is gone?
ChargerIIC wrote: Finally able to get back in with my Primaris deathwatch, but the last time I played was before Bolter Discipline and the latest point drops/knight nerfs. How are people running Primaris Deathwatch these days? Are people still teleporting a bunch of Dreadnoughts in now that the turn 1 deploy from reserves is gone?
I think most folks with Primaris Deathwatch swapped to using rifles over the fast autobolt units simply because of Bolter Discipline, which naturally works best with a squad of Hellblasters.
But finding folks who play Primaris Deathwatch is hard because of how ridiculous the storm bolter vets are.
ChargerIIC wrote: Finally able to get back in with my Primaris deathwatch, but the last time I played was before Bolter Discipline and the latest point drops/knight nerfs. How are people running Primaris Deathwatch these days? Are people still teleporting a bunch of Dreadnoughts in now that the turn 1 deploy from reserves is gone?
I've been having a lot of fun with a couple squad loadouts. Also Combat Squading rather than always running big squads, as this basically lets you build 5 man tac squads with a couple specials. Great for MSU and board control.
Skirmish squads: Bolt Aggressors x2, Autobolters x8 (split into 2x 5 man combat squads each with an aggressor "sergeant"). These are my bread and butter, as they're fast and spit out a load of bolterfire. Hiding an Aggressor in each squad makes them live waaaaaay longer than non-deathwatch versions. Run them up to the midfield, then hunker down in some cover and doubleshoot with them. A single aggressor is easily a squad's worth of firepower by itself, and the autobolters are good at keeping range while maintaining a good rate of fire.
Tac Squads: Hellblasters x4, Bolt Rifles x6 (combat squaded with 2x hellblasters each). A good allrounder for sitting back and shooting things. Spreading the hellblasters out makes them live longer.
Deepstrike Squad: Hellblasters x4, Plasma Intercessor, 5x bolt rifles: A big beefy squad that you can deepstrike in and blow stuff up (bring a captain). Inceptor lets them fall back and shoot (if he doesnt melt himself, which is usually the case).
ChargerIIC wrote: Finally able to get back in with my Primaris deathwatch, but the last time I played was before Bolter Discipline and the latest point drops/knight nerfs. How are people running Primaris Deathwatch these days? Are people still teleporting a bunch of Dreadnoughts in now that the turn 1 deploy from reserves is gone?
I think most folks with Primaris Deathwatch swapped to using rifles over the fast autobolt units simply because of Bolter Discipline, which naturally works best with a squad of Hellblasters.
But finding folks who play Primaris Deathwatch is hard because of how ridiculous the storm bolter vets are.
I play them. I use the rifle. I didn't feel like kitbashing that many stormbolters when I wrote my list, and the them became "no 1 W models". It's a DW/IK list.
ChargerIIC wrote: Finally able to get back in with my Primaris deathwatch, but the last time I played was before Bolter Discipline and the latest point drops/knight nerfs. How are people running Primaris Deathwatch these days? Are people still teleporting a bunch of Dreadnoughts in now that the turn 1 deploy from reserves is gone?
I think most folks with Primaris Deathwatch swapped to using rifles over the fast autobolt units simply because of Bolter Discipline, which naturally works best with a squad of Hellblasters.
But finding folks who play Primaris Deathwatch is hard because of how ridiculous the storm bolter vets are.
I play them. I use the rifle. I didn't feel like kitbashing that many stormbolters when I wrote my list, and the them became "no 1 W models". It's a DW/IK list.
I like Primaris DW, don't get me wrong - I'm just saying that the meta definitely transitioned into mixed Vet squads over mixed Primaris squads.
I run a big unit that deepstrikes with 5 intercessors, 3 X aggressors and an inceptor which really is very effective when it comes in with a captain and a squad of inceptors too.
However I am absolutely terrible at remembering how the special rules effect the squad. I played chaos/Daemon army recently and my squad got locked in combat by a Daemon chariot thing and I 100% forgot that they could leave combat and still fire fire to the inceptor!!
ChargerIIC wrote: Finally able to get back in with my Primaris deathwatch, but the last time I played was before Bolter Discipline and the latest point drops/knight nerfs. How are people running Primaris Deathwatch these days? Are people still teleporting a bunch of Dreadnoughts in now that the turn 1 deploy from reserves is gone?
I haven't changed much. Either Bolt Rifles with Hellblasters and a Plasma Inceptor or Auto Bolt Rifles with Aggressors and a Bolt Inceptor. There was a brief time when Bolter Discipline largely invalidated the latter group and I was better off with a more static Aggressor unit, but those two styles have generally worked well for me. I'll actually generally take 1 of each of those and some Storm Bolter Veterans for my third.
I'd hate saying that first poster is right given their reputation, but GW has made it clear that movement is done as a single fluid step, so there is no chance to interrupt or mechanism to do so. The Strategem doesn't give you the ability so you can only trigger it after the move finishes.
There have been similar discussions in which people tried to argue they could trigger near-infinite copies of after-movement bonuses by moving their model a millimeter at a time.
Overcosted...maybe....Im finding myself wanting to try 3x Repulsor Executioner though....
Sit back killing Armor/Knights with those sweet sweet Laser Destroyers (12 friggin shots) while your watchmaster hangs out hiding outside and sporting his Dominus Aegis for that 5++ and making the tanks super accurate. Tactics vs Lord of war OR strategem and you are looking at dropping a Castellen in a single turn with a bit of luck.
I think they are worth looking at...we pay a premium for everything anyway.
Blue Falcon wrote: With Master and correct tactics, 11-12 wounding hits is easy to get.
Its heavy 2, not d3.
6 wounding hits get thru halving for 4++
Thats 18 Damage minimum. Bad luck for wounding.
Your math is wrong.
12 shots, then, guaranteed, not average. 8/9 shots hit, for 96/9 hits (simplified to 32/3) or 10.67 hits. Wounding on 3s, no rerolls, is 64/9 wounds or 7.11. I forgot to apply the Chapter Tactic, true, but that REQUIRES the Tome (since they don't normally get it), and only increases the damage to 7/9 instead of 2/3, for 224/27 or 8.30. With a 4++, that's half of them negated, for 112/27 or 4.15. At 4 damage on average, that's a little shy of 17 damage. Enough to bracket a Castellan, but CERTAINLY not enough to kill it.
Edit: I'm trying to figure out how you got your 6 unsaved wound figure.
That'd require 12 successful wounds on average, which is the number of shots you get.
Blue Falcon wrote: Strategem and tactics create a 2+ to wound with a reroll.
Do you even play DW?
I don't a ton, but I am capable of seeing where you went wrong.
Even with a 2+ rerollable wound and a 3+ rerollable hit, each shot has an (8/9)*(35/36)*(1/2)=43.21% chance of going through. Except Strats are limited to once per phase, so you can't give it to all three Executioners.
But even if you COULD, you only average 5.19 unsaved wounds, which is (even with rounding) less than 6 by a wide margin. Not even enough to kill a Questoris Knight on average.
Edit: Doing math for two Repulsors at 3+ RRAll followed 3+ RR1s, and one at 3+ RRAll follwed by 2+ RR1s against a 4++ Castellan, gets me to...
1.73 unsaved from the buffed Repulsor and 2.77 unsaved from the unbuffed, for exactly 4.5 wounds going through, or 18 damage on average.
At an average of 4 damage per unsaved wound, 3 Repulsors by a Watch Master with the Tome and one buffed to wound on a 2+ have the following percents for damage:
Obviously not perfect odds, since the damage is 1d6 (Floor of 3) not 4, but close enough.
In other words, you have about a 10% chance of killing a Castellan, and about a 1/4 chance of killing a Questoris. BUT! You do have a damn-near 90% chance of bracketing a Questoris, and better than 70% odds of bracketing a Dominous class.
Now add in the heavy bolters and onslaughts with a threat range of 35-41". If you can get range with them, then it's job done: 4.6 damage with the strat-buffed executioner, 3.1 with the unbuffeds for an additional 10.8.
Repulsor Executioner has:
Laser Destroyer (fires twice)
2X Fragstorm Launchers
Heavy Onslaught Gatling Cannon
Ironhail Heavy Stubber
2X Storm Bolters
Twin Heavy Bolter
Twin Icarus Ironhail Heavy Stubber
For a total of, at 30" (assuming the Knight player is smart and DOESN'T expose their Castellan to every bit of fire)
4 S10 AP-4 Dd6 (Floor 3) shots
18 S5 AP-1 D1 shots
3 S4 AP-1 D1 shots
6 S4 AP-1 D1 shots hitting at -1
Which means an Executioner does...
1.38 Dd6 (Floor 3) wounds
3.11 (S5)+.26 (S4)+.39 (S4 at -1 hit) totals to 3.76 D1 wounds
Buffed with +1 to-wound, that increases to...
1.73 Dd6 (Floor 3) wounds
4.67 (S5)+.52 (S4)+.78 (S4 at -1 hit) totals to 5.97 D1 wounds
Which totals to, all said and done...
17.96 wounds from the big guns
13.49 wounds from the little guns
Or more than enough to kill a Castellan, even with poor damage rolls. Though that's 990 points to kill a cheaper model.
Now, going to anydice for odds of achieving specif results...
Why not just go for 3Contemptors with twin las instead?
Its way cheaper and you dont have to stick you Watchmaster with them since they hit on 2s
If you are a cheeky fellow you soup them as ravenguard for -1 to hit.
They do „almost“ the same dmg as the 3 executioners
So all Marines get an extra attack the first round of combat basically. This makes out gunslinging Bolt Pistol Vanguard into an even neater option than before.
I also prefer to let FW dreadnoughts handle my anti tank or soup in Leman Russes.
------------
So Deathwatch has the new Shock assault rule.
I think it could be pretty interesting for the Deathwatch since our kill teams will have more ways of making sure the +1 attack is active. They can have a ton of freedom when falling back, bikes can allow them to charge again, and Black shields give them Heroic Intervention (and have 4 attacks). Also that extra attack could give a little life to the Heavy Thunder hammer.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: What are the odds of 5 Heavy Hammer Vanguard killing a Knight? Probably not fantastic but inquiring minds at work want to know
First off, I really think HTHs should be SX3, not X2.
But, math time!
Each attack hits on a 4
Wounds on a 4
Saves on a 6 (assuming no relic defense)
Deals an average of 4.33 damage on an unsaved wound
For...
.90 damage per attack, on average.
Meaning you'd need just over 30 attacks to kill a Dominous on average.
Reverse engineering that...
32 attacks
16 hit
8 wound (2.67 at 6 damage flat)
6.67 unsaved (2.22 at 6 damage flat)
For...
13.32 damage from the 6 flat, 15.58 from the d6 damage, and 28.90 total.
Chris521 wrote: If I was going to put 5 HTH into a squad I would give them some support.
Either a chaplain or watch master for rerolls and chaplain dread would make them Strength 10.
Mission tactics for rerolling 1's to wound and the Malleus Doctrine will make it wound on a 2+ with both 5's and 6's giving 6 damage.
That be being said, I would be more likely to just give one to a lone vanguard in a kill team
Rerolls are easy enough to get.
A Chaplain Dread is a LOT trickier to finagle, though. I'll do the math hitting on 4s (rerolling 1s and 2s) and wounding on 3s (rerolling 1s, 5+ is flat 6 damage).
2/3 chance of hitting
7/9 chance of wounding
5/6 chance of unsaved
4.75 average damage
For a total of...
2.05 damage per attack
Or, only 14 attacks needed to kill a Knight Dominous. Very possible, with the new rule and a squad of five VanVets.
Vortenger wrote: Neither Index nor Codex lets DW take the grenade launcher, did I miss something?
Index says to use the "Captain in Terminator armor" entry on page 12 as a "deathwatch Captain in Terminator armor". That entry specifically states that A Captain in Terminator can have an Aux. Grenade Launcher as long as he has a power fist.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: What are the odds of 5 Heavy Hammer Vanguard killing a Knight? Probably not fantastic but inquiring minds at work want to know
I really want a reason to use my HTHs. I have 2 with JPs and 2 on foot. I love the concept but they really need to drop the points. Random damage, no ability to take a SS, it should be no more than 20pts if a regular TH is 16.
Vortenger wrote: Neither Index nor Codex lets DW take the grenade launcher, did I miss something?
Index says to use the "Captain in Terminator armor" entry on page 12 as a "deathwatch Captain in Terminator armor". That entry specifically states that A Captain in Terminator can have an Aux. Grenade Launcher as long as he has a power fist.
Which the Power Fist with the Melta Gun counts as.
Vortenger wrote: Neither Index nor Codex lets DW take the grenade launcher, did I miss something?
Index says to use the "Captain in Terminator armor" entry on page 12 as a "deathwatch Captain in Terminator armor". That entry specifically states that A Captain in Terminator can have an Aux. Grenade Launcher as long as he has a power fist.
Which the Power Fist with the Melta Gun counts as.
No, it doesn't. THe Grenade launcher and the meltagun are two separate things, they just have the same prerequisite, the power fist.
Index says to use the "Captain in Terminator armor" entry on page 12 as a "deathwatch Captain in Terminator armor". That entry specifically states that A Captain in Terminator can have an Aux. Grenade Launcher as long as he has a power fist.
Right, but the same page that grants access to the termie captain in the Index also has a sidebar stating it can't alter any equipment except it's sword for a relic blade. Index only wargear is strictly prohibited for DW with that caveat.
How did you get around that sidebar to equip the grenade launcher? If you cqan give rules support, I'll go glue mine on right now.
Index says to use the "Captain in Terminator armor" entry on page 12 as a "deathwatch Captain in Terminator armor". That entry specifically states that A Captain in Terminator can have an Aux. Grenade Launcher as long as he has a power fist.
Right, but the same page that grants access to the termie captain in the Index also has a sidebar stating it can't alter any equipment except it's sword for a relic blade. Index only wargear is strictly prohibited for DW with that caveat.
How did you get around that sidebar to equip the grenade launcher? If you cqan give rules support, I'll go glue mine on right now.
Dang blurb Oh well, would have been a cool looking model.
Index to Codex to other Codex is always a stumbling block for Deathwatch this edition it seems. And barring a miracle, its about to get significantly worth with C:SM 2.0.
Their big niche will be popping bikes. Weight of fire still leans in favor of Bolt Rifles / storm bolters against most everything else. I want to see what happens to the Assault/Heavy hellblaster variants. If the latter gets spicy, a Stalker/hellblaster/Aggresor squad could be interesting
Automatically Appended Next Post: Random thought:
Flat damage 3 MC Stalkers? 4 with the bane bolts?
Intriguing. Especially if that leaked datasheet with Intercessor Sergeants being able to take MC Stalkers turns out to be true.
It's looking more and more like removing bolter discipline from SIA was completely pointless. The new Marine Codex is filled with new rules that increase fire power while taking advantage of bolter discipline. Given that taking it away hurt units like bikes and terminators more than it did kill teams, we should try to push for getting it back.
in 1week will get a pdf. Im hoping add in new Primaris marines, and combine old marines, we still have the height advantage so in between old and new. Main thing I want is we get to keep new primaris and retain versatility of current veterans. we have an awesome kit we need to keep it (and I have a massive DW army).\\
looked at all new Sm stuff... is good but waiting for DW stuff
What I hope is we get a centurion able to be part of a veteren squad or squad alone, just cause I have done cool conversions
So looking at the datasheet changes from C:SM 2.0, Intercessors and Rievers look like big winners. ABRs going to Assault 3 makes them really tempting with SIA. Sarges with 4 thunderhammer attacks apiece on the charge aint bad either.
Rievers dropping down to be points equivalent to Intercessors is spicy too. Sprinkle a few in and suddenly we've got Night Lords CTs all across the Fortis teams.
Rumor that Doctrines are tied to angels of death, meaning deathwatch and all marine codexes will have doctrines? That would be amazing if true.... it also would disproportionately affect DW. Death frag cannons would have ap4 up close and melt infantry with s6 ap2 in 8 inches. You could literally drop 6 in two squads and do them annihilate a full primaries squad in one salvo even in cover.
So what about hellfire rounds and where is this rule? Would still be nice on leviathan if its the case anyways. Ap3 auto cannon wounding primaries on 2.
- +1A on the charge for our vets is really legit, and just pushes them over the edge into viability for TH Sarge and Blackshield builds I think
- Stalker bolt rifle is quite nice now but...
- Real winner is our assault bolt rifle. 3 shots with an aggressor along for the ride to allow them to always advance and shoot with no penalty is really big. I and a lot of other DW players have been running 5 assualt intercessors and an aggressor for a while, and this really helps them. As does...
- 3W for aggressors and inceptors. Very nice due to the prevalence of D2 weapons.
We have to wait and see what new models will be available to us, but my gut says all of them, as we currently have all primaris units in our roster. Suppressors, Eliminators and the new walker all look like a great match for us, given our glaring AT problem in mono-faction.
- +1A on the charge for our vets is really legit, and just pushes them over the edge into viability for TH Sarge and Blackshield builds I think
- Stalker bolt rifle is quite nice now but...
- Real winner is our assault bolt rifle. 3 shots with an aggressor along for the ride to allow them to always advance and shoot with no penalty is really big. I and a lot of other DW players have been running 5 assualt intercessors and an aggressor for a while, and this really helps them. As does...
- 3W for aggressors and inceptors. Very nice due to the prevalence of D2 weapons.
We have to wait and see what new models will be available to us, but my gut says all of them, as we currently have all primaris units in our roster. Suppressors, Eliminators and the new walker all look like a great match for us, given our glaring AT problem in mono-faction.
Havent thought about this...a chaff cleaning CC orientated mixed KillTeam might be really nice.
We can also go for Aggressors plus Stalker rifle KillTeams now...
I dont want to get my hopes up, but a cheep and cheerful MSU battalion of ABR Intercessors (with obligatory PF on the sarge) popping out of three impulsors is looking excruciatingly tasty.
I don't think we'll get anything beyond the Shock Assault buff and updates to datasheets/weapons we already have. As they've withheld everything other than the Executioner so far.
I don't think DW are as bad off as people think. Sure, the SM are now powerhouses when it comes to firepower but they didn't get too much of a boon for survivability. DW still hold that ace.
+1 A certainly is going to help in many instances.
I still like the Frag Cannon option on one dude as the shell is still good round from deepstrike on tougher targets before you get to within 8". They will be accompanied by a 
Oh well, would have been a cool looking model.
