bort wrote: Does anyone bother with a Black Shield? The fact you're forced to heroic intervene always worries me and now they aren't even the same price as a regular Vet....
If the idea of a melee Kill-Team really appeals to you, maybe, but everything a Kill-Team does at range so wildly outclasses what they do in melee I find there isn't really much point.
Galef wrote: Thanx for the clarification. Why GW has so many similarly named things kinda bothers me. Just cut the fat already.
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I just assume in the Deathwatch thread that Stalker will always refer to the Bolter rather than the Bolt Rifle, as the latter is so bad why bother discussing it?
IVIOOSE wrote: The problem is that bikers and terminators in a veteran squad only have the infantry keyword. So until they faq a biker to have the bike keyword and the terminator to have terminator keyword they won’t be able to benifit for the new bolter rule.
Yes they do have those keywords for the purpose of being inside a transport but that does not count for what they are for rules currently.
It’s very RAW not RAI
So word im getting is this is a mistake or the Mixed unit rule in the datasheet for Vets allows them to keep the key word. Unfortunatly i dont have the rule to read at the moment. Anyone confirm that ?
As written they only use the Keyword when embarking on transports.
That's why you should send a nicely worded, professional email to the GW rules team and ask what the interaction is between the new Bolter rule and mixed unit Kill Teams.
So word im getting is this is a mistake or the Mixed unit rule in the datasheet for Vets allows them to keep the key word. Unfortunatly i dont have the rule to read at the moment. Anyone confirm that ?
I just looked at the Codex. It's not ambiguous. Mixed Units doesnt add keywords in any situation other than embarking on transports, and thus Vet squads (and their component parts) will only trigger this if they're immobile.
All I know is I hit the jackpot when I talked to my buddy that has like 10 armies. He has veritable F***tons of Storm Bolters he is not using so I am picking them up for almost nothing to make more vets.
I am starting to with Deatwatch. Yesterday I had my first match with them against Tyranid on a 1K match in a small table with a really bad deployment (corner 9" from the center).
I played with 2 vet mixed squads, 5 man intercesor, 3 man Inceptors, 2 Cpt and 2 Dreads. I lost. I had the feeling being lost with SIA and Strats and Tactics, but this will be more easy next games.
I was thinking, when I play my next matches to 1.500 wich is the normal for us, to add an Battalion of my Ultras; a Libby, Telion and 3 squad scouts with bolter for board control.
Would it be good or should I spend more points in different thing for the Ultra Battalion?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: If you want a Battalion, add one that compliments your army.
Ultramarines add nothing unless you plan to use Scouts and that's it. If you're just looking at CP, there are several better ways to get it.
I know, but I just want some more units in and extra CP. I feel more confident if I have some units for board control, and my SM army are Ultras. Also it gives me a Libby for support my Deathwatch.Scouts are cheap, and with the new Bolter betta Rule they give me a couple of extra shots if they remain in their place. I just want them for denie a litle bit my rival the middle of the board. I will just deploy them in somewhere in the middle.
There’s a new FW rules pdf linked in the Custodes thread.
If you’re talking about that Telemon dread, isn’t it too expensive? I only briefly skimmed before heading to work, but I think the storm cannon version gets fewer shots at damage 1 instead of 2 and the unit as a whole is still like 270 pts. Upside being you can use the gun as essentially a twin las as well, but there’s cheaper dreads for 2 twin las.
Storm Cannon Telemon is 274 points with the same defensive line as a Leviathan, doesn't have the Relic rule, and in its AT configuration rerolls wounds against vehicles as well as does flat damage out to three times the range.
Plus it can be teleported in alongside three DW units since they utilize different deep strike strats.
Different preferred targets for sure, but it's worth a look IMO.
bort wrote: There’s a new FW rules pdf linked in the Custodes thread.
If you’re talking about that Telemon dread, isn’t it too expensive? I only briefly skimmed before heading to work, but I think the storm cannon version gets fewer shots at damage 1 instead of 2 and the unit as a whole is still like 270 pts. Upside being you can use the gun as essentially a twin las as well, but there’s cheaper dreads for 2 twin las.
There is also inherent value in a unit that has weapons that can do both anti-horde and anti tank. A missile twin Las dread might be more efficient per point against a vehicle, but roll up against a horde and it's little more than dead weight.
bort wrote: There’s a new FW rules pdf linked in the Custodes thread.
If you’re talking about that Telemon dread, isn’t it too expensive? I only briefly skimmed before heading to work, but I think the storm cannon version gets fewer shots at damage 1 instead of 2 and the unit as a whole is still like 270 pts. Upside being you can use the gun as essentially a twin las as well, but there’s cheaper dreads for 2 twin las.
There is also inherent value in a unit that has weapons that can do both anti-horde and anti tank. A missile twin Las dread might be more efficient per point against a vehicle, but roll up against a horde and it's little more than dead weight.
We aren't lacking anti-horde in this army at its base, you realize, right?
Drager wrote: How are people finding primaris Intercessors with the new beta rule ?
Still not played with the beta rule yet. But, it will only works with them when remain static, and static for Deathwatch is not a good option or at les not the best one. For me it is more for Termis and Bikers. In my next game I will not only use one bike for the veterans, instead I will use a bike squad just because tje rule.
Drager wrote: How are people finding primaris Intercessors with the new beta rule ?
Still not played with the beta rule yet. But, it will only works with them when remain static, and static for Deathwatch is not a good option or at les not the best one. For me it is more for Termis and Bikers. In my next game I will not only use one bike for the veterans, instead I will use a bike squad just because tje rule.
I've found it to be great so far. Makes my Intercessors camping in my deployment zone great. Its a different style, but I think static is good for them.
Keen to get back into 40k and looking to do DW/Inq mixed force. Basically a mix of Kill Teams, Dreads, Scions (counts as Inq Stormies) and maybe an Assassin or two.
Is it possible to make the Tempestus Drop Force work with DW? I love the idea of Scions dropping out of the Valkyries, but do they bring anything to the table we don't already do well?
Welp, I played my first game with the beta rule and all I can say is "I was very very very very wrong."
Vets with storm bolters parked in ruins are so good it isn't even funny. Initially I was thinking "but we already have the Stalker for that/Oh this is a buff to Intercessors not so much vets/But the vets will just deep strike" and OH BOY was I 100% wrong about that.
I played a 1500 point list with one squad having stalkers and missiles and the others having storm bolters and a couple combi-plasmas with accompanying power weapon/sb termies and loads of storm shields all around, plus a couple las/missile vendreads, and I just went for a "Park in ruins and gunline it out" strategy.
My opponent had Tau, so initially was totally happy with that setup. Until turn 1, when a grand total of one terminator and a half died to his fire warriors and broadsides, then the Deathwatch returned fire at 30" range and wiped 25 fire warriors and most of the drones on the field.
Then turn 2 happened, and 2 commanders and 6 crisis suits killed 4 guys with storm shields, and then the deathwatch returned fire and charged and killed all those guys.
By turn 4, the Tau were tabled and I'd lost one dreadnought, 6 stormshields and 2 terminators, in a straight up static gunline fight against Tau at mostly 30" range.
the_scotsman wrote: Welp, I played my first game with the beta rule and all I can say is "I was very very very very wrong."
Vets with storm bolters parked in ruins are so good it isn't even funny. Initially I was thinking "but we already have the Stalker for that/Oh this is a buff to Intercessors not so much vets/But the vets will just deep strike" and OH BOY was I 100% wrong about that.
I played a 1500 point list with one squad having stalkers and missiles and the others having storm bolters and a couple combi-plasmas with accompanying power weapon/sb termies and loads of storm shields all around, plus a couple las/missile vendreads, and I just went for a "Park in ruins and gunline it out" strategy.
My opponent had Tau, so initially was totally happy with that setup. Until turn 1, when a grand total of one terminator and a half died to his fire warriors and broadsides, then the Deathwatch returned fire at 30" range and wiped 25 fire warriors and most of the drones on the field.
Then turn 2 happened, and 2 commanders and 6 crisis suits killed 4 guys with storm shields, and then the deathwatch returned fire and charged and killed all those guys.
By turn 4, the Tau were tabled and I'd lost one dreadnought, 6 stormshields and 2 terminators, in a straight up static gunline fight against Tau at mostly 30" range.
Holy flipping moly storm bolters are broken.
Thanks for the breakdown!
And my irrational hatred for the storm bolter in DW continues.
the_scotsman wrote: Welp, I played my first game with the beta rule and all I can say is "I was very very very very wrong."
Vets with storm bolters parked in ruins are so good it isn't even funny. Initially I was thinking "but we already have the Stalker for that/Oh this is a buff to Intercessors not so much vets/But the vets will just deep strike" and OH BOY was I 100% wrong about that.
I played a 1500 point list with one squad having stalkers and missiles and the others having storm bolters and a couple combi-plasmas with accompanying power weapon/sb termies and loads of storm shields all around, plus a couple las/missile vendreads, and I just went for a "Park in ruins and gunline it out" strategy.
My opponent had Tau, so initially was totally happy with that setup. Until turn 1, when a grand total of one terminator and a half died to his fire warriors and broadsides, then the Deathwatch returned fire at 30" range and wiped 25 fire warriors and most of the drones on the field.
Then turn 2 happened, and 2 commanders and 6 crisis suits killed 4 guys with storm shields, and then the deathwatch returned fire and charged and killed all those guys.
By turn 4, the Tau were tabled and I'd lost one dreadnought, 6 stormshields and 2 terminators, in a straight up static gunline fight against Tau at mostly 30" range.
Holy flipping moly storm bolters are broken.
Thanks for the breakdown!
And my irrational hatred for the storm bolter in DW continues.
Yeah, midway through the game I was just like
"Huh, you know, I could be comparing the pros and cons of this weapon vs other weapons but feth it, this one DOUBLES MY FIREPOWER for basically no points at 30" range, and I get to have a 3++ along with it."
feth the shotgun, boltgun, stalker boltgun, heavy bolter, intercessors in general, assault cannon, combi-weapons, and pretty much every other option, they're all made obsolete by this gun that lets me sit in cover and spew out 4 shots at 30" range.
Eh the Stalker still has niche uses. The real problem is the super cheap SS; I mean, the model used to be 23 points and now at only 20 you have no real reason to not pick up the SS unless you don't have that many models laying around.
I'm also still annoyed the Shotgun didn't go down a point.
Feth the stalker - go with the storm bolter, you'll have more flexibility and mobility without affecting your firepower, something a low model count army needs.
Feth the shotgun, even at 1 point less it still wouldn't compete with the storm bolter.
Feth the entire Primaris line, Vets are superior due to storm shields and storm bolters.
The storm bolter is worth selecting on every non character model that can carry one, and often times for characters too. A weapon not even included in the bloody kit. What a joke.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Eh the Stalker still has niche uses. The real problem is the super cheap SS; I mean, the model used to be 23 points and now at only 20 you have no real reason to not pick up the SS unless you don't have that many models laying around.
I'm also still annoyed the Shotgun didn't go down a point.
If you can call "the range band between 31" and 36"" a niche use then....okay.
I think I'd much rather have double the firepower than go from 30" to 36" range, thanks.
Feth the stalker - go with the storm bolter, you'll have more flexibility and mobility without affecting your firepower, something a low model count army needs.
Feth the shotgun, even at 1 point less it still wouldn't compete with the storm bolter.
Feth the entire Primaris line, Vets are superior due to storm shields and storm bolters.
The storm bolter is worth selecting on every non character model that can carry one, and often times for characters too. A weapon not even included in the bloody kit. What a joke.
Sternguard kit is the new Deathwatch Veteran kit :p
My entire grey knight "army" has somehow lost all of their storm bolters and I still don't have enough.
I agree the new rule is awesome. I was playing this weekend without it and being able to reach out and touch enemy models 30" away after I've destroyed whatever I deepstruck close to would have completely changed my games. Add in a unit of primaris in the backfield being able to put meaningful firepower on stuff 36" away and things would have gone a lot differently.
I still didn't have an answer for wave serpent spam and without a unit of bikes I felt really immobile so I think I should experiment with the vets+bikers+VVs kill team to have some good shooting, obsec and fast units. Just got to find 100 points somewhere (relic tax on leviathan sucks).
Much as I love my Primaris and stalker rifles on Vets, the beta bolters is the nail in the coffin. The weight of Fire bonus for storm bolters out to full range is simply too big of an advantage to give up.
I was painting some Primaris for my new deatwatch army, but this bolter rule makes change my mind. No Primaris for a wile, I will continue painting vets with SS and SB.
Played my first game with DW yesterday, against Berserkers in Rhinos, Blood Letters, Demon Prince and Khorne Hounds.
1200 points.
I had the Watch Master, Artemis, Librarian and jump pack Chaplain, 4 x 7 Veteran squads. This was mostly a test run, with a vanguard in each squad, one termie in each squad, one black shield in a squad. The basic Vets were kitted out with SS and SB while i put two shotguns in a close combat unit and 3 frag cannons in another unit. I also ran a Venerable Dread.
I lost the close combat squad and the Watch Master quite early, and then the rest of my army proceeded to wipe out his entire force.
Near the end the squad with three frag cannons destroyed a wounded rhino, two squads of berserkers, a dark apostle and a chaos champion all in overwatch. I was gobsmacked.
I play quite aggressive armies in Orks, Drukhari and Harlequins but you have to pick your battles with DW I find, but wow can they pack a punch when you commit to killing something.
I ran the deathwatch list I proposed earlier againgst a friends World Eaters list. It completely decimated him...…… I kinda felt bad. End of turn 4 and he just had one predator on the field left.
Spoiler:
Double battalion
Watchmaster x2 (one is warlord with Lord of hidden knowledge, other has tome of ectoclades)
Watch captain x2 (jumpacks, one with power fist/storm bolter, one with storm bolter, chainsword, bane bolts)
6 squads vets x5 all storm shield, storm bolter
2 squads hellblasters x5
2 relic levi's with dual storm cannon arrays and heavy flamers
Every turn I was literally deleting any part of his army that got closer than 24" to me.
Alex_85 wrote: I was painting some Primaris for my new deatwatch army, but this bolter rule makes change my mind. No Primaris for a wile, I will continue painting vets with SS and SB.
Keep painting the Intercessors.
The AP-1 on Bolt rifles makes all the difference for SIA.
Wonderful as Storm Bolters are under the new rules a squad of Deathwatch Intercessors is how you drop Infantry, Monsters, Beasts and light Vehicles.
Alex_85 wrote: I was painting some Primaris for my new deatwatch army, but this bolter rule makes change my mind. No Primaris for a wile, I will continue painting vets with SS and SB.
Keep painting the Intercessors.
The AP-1 on Bolt rifles makes all the difference for SIA.
Wonderful as Storm Bolters are under the new rules a squad of Deathwatch Intercessors is how you drop Infantry, Monsters, Beasts and light Vehicles.
So, the problem is, no it does not.
Unless you're fighting in the 31-36" range band (the only range at which the intercessors can reach but the storm bolters cannot) storm bolters do more damage than bolt rifles against every target. This is kind of the problem with DW storm bolters and kind of storm bolters in general: They do more damage than almost everything.
Vs an infantry (lets say T3 5+ Guardsmen) using Ap-1 ammo:
4x.666x.666x.8333=1.48 dead from the SB 2x.666x.666 = .887 dead from the bolt rifle
Vs a monster (lets say T7 3+ carnifex) using wound on 2s ammo:
4x.666x.8333x.3333=.740 wounds from the SB 2x.666x.8333x.5 = .555 wounds from the BR
Versus a light vehicle (maybe T5 4+ like an ork buggy?) using -1 AP ammo:
4x.666x.333x.666 = .59 wounds from the SB 2x.666x.333x.8333 = .37 wounds from the bolt rifle
Storm bolters outdamage every competing weapon option unless you're out of range of the SB and in range of the competing weapon (heavy bolter, bolt rifle, stalker bolt at 31-36" range). Even things like the Shotgun auto-hit mini-flamer profile against Guardsmen in 8" range. Even a goddamn combi-flamer unloading into guardsmen at 8" range does less than a storm bolter using ap-2 ammo, and what do those cost 12 points or something crazy like that?
You have to get into Frag Cannon territory to outdamage a friggin 4-point storm bolter. Now, granted I think that's primarily a problem with weapons like flamers and shotguns and heavy bolters being bad at their jobs (killing light infantry up close) and I'd rather see them buffed in effectiveness but as we stand right now storm bolters are the best weapon bar none in most situations.
For me the main difference between the Vets and the Intercessors are Storm Shields. For only 2 points. Primaris has a big lack of equipment options. I prefer one wound model with invulnerable than a 2 wounds without it.
I use one squad Intercessor just because I like how they looks. I am really thinking about convert some Primaris into Veterans.
Alex_85 wrote: For me the main difference between the Vets and the Intercessors are Storm Shields. For only 2 points. Primaris has a big lack of equipment options. I prefer one wound model with invulnerable than a 2 wounds without it.
I use one squad Intercessor just because I like how they looks. I am really thinking about convert some Primaris into Veterans.
That really comes down to GWs newer philosophy from the folks that make the models. Newer kits are barely better than Mono-pose with fewer options. They do look good, but more specialty poses mean less modularity, and less equipment options. Until GW complete borks the mini Marines or gives up on the Mono-pose primaris, Primaris will always be inferior on the equipment front.
So it turns out that SS/SB vet squads are overpowered. I don't think anyone can deny that now can they? Mortal wounds are the only efficient way to deal with them, aside from jinx/doom, the ultimate debuff in 40k.
The kind of loadout I'm talking about is vanvet, 2 termies, blackshield, sarg and 5 vets: 2 2+ models, 7 3++, coming in at 223pts.
grouchoben wrote: So it turns out that SS/SB vet squads are overpowered. I don't think anyone can deny that now can they? Mortal wounds are the only efficient way to deal with them, aside from jinx/doom, the ultimate debuff in 40k.
The kind of loadout I'm talking about is vanvet, 2 termies, blackshield, sarg and 5 vets: 2 2+ models, 7 3++, coming in at 223pts.
I tought it was better to avoid the blackshield so that the enemy can not force you to HI.
grouchoben wrote: So it turns out that SS/SB vet squads are overpowered. I don't think anyone can deny that now can they? Mortal wounds are the only efficient way to deal with them, aside from jinx/doom, the ultimate debuff in 40k.
The kind of loadout I'm talking about is vanvet, 2 termies, blackshield, sarg and 5 vets: 2 2+ models, 7 3++, coming in at 223pts.
I tought it was better to avoid the blackshield so that the enemy can not force you to HI.
Why would them being able to force HI matter? They can't hit you if you weren't a charge target - so free melee attacks and movement from HI and pile in. You still control how much of the move you make because you move up to 3" and end closer - so just move .01" and remain out of combat unless the opponent piles in twice. The VV makes it so you won't be tied down and silenced in the shooting phase. I can't see a single thing that makes it a downside.
All I know is that the Pistol Genestealer dude really put the final nail in the coffin for me still wanting to use Primaris in my Deathwatch in some form.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: All I know is that the Pistol Genestealer dude really put the final nail in the coffin for me still wanting to use Primaris in my Deathwatch in some form.
In fairness, the GSC book in general is looking to feth over balance across the board. Not just for marines.
Creeping Dementia wrote: That really comes down to GWs newer philosophy from the folks that make the models. Newer kits are barely better than Mono-pose with fewer options. They do look good, but more specialty poses mean less modularity, and less equipment options. Until GW complete borks the mini Marines or gives up on the Mono-pose primaris, Primaris will always be inferior on the equipment front.
That makes no sense at all. DW kill team box is even more monopose and it has less options than primaris have, they just lucked into the fact that GW writers don't try to sabotage them like primaris and they got access to every single option tactical squads have, with no limits. BA tactical squad has storm bolter bit? Take ten of them, despite the fact there are zero in kill team box itself! Really, DW just plainly shows how dumb primaris limitations are and how rich and diverse the army would be, by showing what people can do with similar oldmarine kit if they aren't blocked for no reason. Just look at frakking power axes, DW can take them on every single model despite the bit not existing anywhere in the range, while primaris still can't two years later for some incredibly stupid non-reason...
See, what you’re failing to realize is the key to being tactically flexible is to have exactly 5 guys with exactly the same weapons and no equipment.
I’ve always found it ironic that Guilliman is the reputed tactical genius, yet the further you get from codex marines and anything he touched, the better marine units get.
Personally, I think having 1-2 units of DW Intercessor is good to just sit in cover and pew-pew using Bolter Discipline and SIA.
SB/SS Vets seem better as your "active" Troops in that they don't really care about cover, so they can move to forward objectives.
If I were to run DW, I'd do a 2:1 ratios of SS/SB Vet units to Intercessors.
Wow well tonight I learned some serious lessons about 40k and Deathwatch...
Played my foot slogging force at 2k which was basically
Watch master
Primaris librarian
Smash captain
3 X 10 Primaris kill teams with hellblasters/intercessors
2 X 6 veterans with storm bolter storm shield etc
2 ven dreads twin lascannon and ml
1 redemptor dread
5 hellblasters
He had Tau with 3 Riptide's 2 Hammerheads and since broadsides.
Basically time was short so deployed everything as close as I could to him kept 5 hellblasters and jump captain in reserve. He got first turn and went to town on my Primaris absolutely annihilating them because they were in huge blobs of 10.... Massive mistake from me. In my first turn the beta bolters helped and my veterans managed to do plenty of damage to a riptide and one of my ven dreads named to cause 10 wounds on it with 2 lascannon shots! It died.
Basically in the end he smashed me with massive firepower and I put hardly anything in reserve which was dumb. The big Primaris squads are only good for teleporting and if on foot need to be combat squads as morale was a big factor too.
You run 3 HQ so you had one Battalion with 5 troop squads. You maybe should reduce a bit those big Primaris squads because as you said morale was a problem, and you could also have points for another HQ and so two Battalion, adding a small Intercessor squads. With this you would have plenty of CP for have your veterans in reserve.
But hey, you self have noticed this in your match so no problem, next time you will do it better.
Yeah that's true I do have a lot of intercessors, i have just bought a repulsor which I will be including in the army too. I have a squad of intercessors with aggressors which is very expensive and needs to either deep strike or be transported.
I was thinking the day...would it be possible to use some of the adeptus titanicus game titans as „counts as“ contemptor dread? Has anyone checked the base sizes or maybe seen something similar? I was thinking about the „scout“ titans as conversions
Primaris ideally are 5 intercessors/5 hellblasters, or a mix of intercessors and aggressors. They should always be deepstruck if you see something like a riptide or dizzie cannons on the board, as against these kinds of weapons they will just bleed out.
The truth is you're much better off going vets, but if you must use primaris, stack them with specialists and protect them, and they can do well. It's counterintuitive, but they're much squishier than vets.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I think there's still a case for a big squad deepstriking, but that should be a specialsed unit with a job, not a troop-slot filler. 5-man ss/sb squads are way too good if you're just trying to fill a batallion, and 10-mans with termis and a vanvet wipe the floor with primaris unfortunately.
grouchoben wrote: Primaris ideally are 5 intercessors/5 hellblasters, or a mix of intercessors and aggressors. They should always be deepstruck if you see something like a riptide or dizzie cannons on the board, as against these kinds of weapons they will just bleed out.
The truth is you're much better off going vets, but if you must use primaris, stack them with specialists and protect them, and they can do well. It's counterintuitive, but they're much squishier than vets.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I think there's still a case for a big squad deepstriking, but that should be a specialsed unit with a job, not a troop-slot filler. 5-man ss/sb squads are way too good if you're just trying to fill a batallion, and 10-mans with termis and a vanvet wipe the floor with primaris unfortunately.
Fair enough dude one just got so many Primaris and am trying to future proof myself by not buying more vets. I've got around 16 vets and have a squad of 5 sterguard bnib too so might start using more of them
grouchoben wrote: Primaris ideally are 5 intercessors/5 hellblasters, or a mix of intercessors and aggressors. They should always be deepstruck if you see something like a riptide or dizzie cannons on the board, as against these kinds of weapons they will just bleed out.
The truth is you're much better off going vets, but if you must use primaris, stack them with specialists and protect them, and they can do well. It's counterintuitive, but they're much squishier than vets.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I think there's still a case for a big squad deepstriking, but that should be a specialsed unit with a job, not a troop-slot filler. 5-man ss/sb squads are way too good if you're just trying to fill a batallion, and 10-mans with termis and a vanvet wipe the floor with primaris unfortunately.
Fair enough dude one just got so many Primaris and am trying to future proof myself by not buying more vets. I've got around 16 vets and have a squad of 5 sterguard bnib too so might start using more of them
It's funny how time after time we've seen baseline marines get bonuses and perform better than any Primaris unit yet still we're thinking they'll be the future.
Until they are competitive, I wouldn't hold your breath on that.
Lemondish wrote: It's funny how time after time we've seen baseline marines get bonuses and perform better than any Primaris unit yet still we're thinking they'll be the future.
Until they are competitive, I wouldn't hold your breath on that.
I don’t think people are saying they are the future because the sats, but because in a few years they think that’s all GW will be producing, and eventually they will stop rules support for the old stuff.
But that day, if it comes, is probably ~2-3 editions away, with a slow transition until the final drop.
Assuming nothing changes. Which is a big assumption.
I know the fairly standard idea with DW tends to be to run a Knight or some Venerables for the AT portion of the list, but I've been toying with all infantry list ideas and thought what if you brought in the mortal wound core from a vanilla chapter? On the one hand, DW vets with storm bolters do passable wounds to so many things just through sheer weight of dice and a few Devs can't match that by default. But, vanilla do have cherubs and Scouts. What do you think of this general list idea to combine the two?
Idea being there's 0 optimal AT targets in the list and the vanilla core provides a 36" firebase for mortals to back up the DW doing the usual teleport in thing. 3 battalions gives a solid 13cps to play with even after buying relics and 3 teleports, lots of obsec bodies, and enemy can either fire into chaff, into storm shields, or at -1 and causing banner procs.
It's still light on true AT, no question as a Dev not firing a mortal strat isn't doing too much damage. But, it's also not much less than most mortal spam vanilla lists and picks up DW storm bolters at the cost of Guilliman's boost to sniper scouts mortal fishing.
My other thought is maybe making the loyal 32 Mordian? Normally I have some mortar teams in there too and go Cadian, but here I don't and they're mainly moving so Cadia isn't useful. But, in the unlikely event they can bunch up and shoot for a turn, Mordia gets the aim bonus and can threaten to snipe 1 wound on a character. Normally useless in small quantities, but combined with a handful of wounds from sniper scouts suddenly is actually a little threatening. I'd totally forgot about options beyond Cadian or Catachan.
What do you think of the following?
DW Battalion:
Liiibbie with Jump Pack - WLT trait Lord of Hidden Knowledge
Watch Master (Warlord) Beacon
3 Vet Squads: 2 Termies SB, Power Maul, 1 VV 2x chain swords, 7 Vets with SB, SS
kaiservonhugal wrote: What do you think of the following?
DW Battalion:
Liiibbie with Jump Pack - WLT trait Lord of Hidden Knowledge
Watch Master (Warlord) Beacon
3 Vet Squads: 2 Termies SB, Power Maul, 1 VV 2x chain swords, 7 Vets with SB, SS
Auxililary Super Heavy
House Krast
Crusader Knight: Storm Spear missile pod, Battle cannon, Avenger Cannon
Looks like every DW meta list except the loyal 32 became the loyal 75? Nothing really to talk about with the DW portion - pretty standard fare. A Knight is a Knight. The only interesting change to the cookie cutter netlist is the guard stuff, but this isn't a guard thread so I imagine you will find much better suggestions on that thread.
So, since DW have become a rising power in the new "meta" (although some have been playing them longer), it's interesting to notice the complete lack of frag cannons in people's lists. The one time staple of every DW list is now barley seen. So, does the additional vet with SB/SS at 20pts completely erase the need for a 25pt frag cannon?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Have we basically abandoned Frag Cannons it seems? I'm still trying to run 3 in my squads but they're so frickin expensive ya know?
They are in a debatable states. They serve a quite versatile role, as they can both fire in high strength good AP mode or high volume auto hit mode, so it is the weapon to deal with tanks / monsters and do good overwatch against hordes or in theory do great work against Harlequins / Dark Eldar. But as what had said, they are expensive, and now it is quite tough for them to get into 8" to fire disperse mode. And given the buff many factions get giving their opponent a reliable charge distance of more than 8", so their overwatch value is quite low now.
I think it's a great weapon. It's just that ss/sb vets are now so competitively priced that every spare point that isn't going on more of them feels like a waste. That's the curse of hyper-efficient units right there, they tend to bleach out options. I still like one in a 5-man team personally - just 4 ss/sb and a frag - for cheap and cheerful vet goodness.
The earlier points increase was understandable, seeing as it was the best weapon vets could take, but now with the storm bolters getting a bit cheaper and with the bolter buff, the frag cannon could use a points decrease again.
Limit them to 1 per squad and bring them down to 20 points and we will see them on the table.
I typically had 2 per 8 man sqd, but thinking I may drop down to 1. They have always done work for me and if they are enough to force a >8" charge attempt, that's a good deal IMHO.
bullyboy wrote: I typically had 2 per 8 man sqd, but thinking I may drop down to 1. They have always done work for me and if they are enough to force a >8" charge attempt, that's a good deal IMHO.
That charge dissuasion is the entire reason I always run at least one. Very few things regardless of saves want to be taking 2d6 heavy flamer autohits
kaiservonhugal wrote: What do you think of the following?
DW Battalion:
Liiibbie with Jump Pack - WLT trait Lord of Hidden Knowledge
Watch Master (Warlord) Beacon
3 Vet Squads: 2 Termies SB, Power Maul, 1 VV 2x chain swords, 7 Vets with SB, SS
Auxililary Super Heavy
House Krast
Crusader Knight: Storm Spear missile pod, Battle cannon, Avenger Cannon
It's very similar to what Stephen over at Vanguard Tactics runs with some variation, the guard contingent is a little different. Should work well enough.
I'm still a fan of Frag Cannons. Mainly take them for the flamer profile, the solid shots are more of a bonus and keeps them useful when you aren't at short range. I'm probably not running at max efficiency but I think it has tactical value.
What are some decent ranged anti-vehicle options for DW? Specifically not mounted on vehicles (so no Dreads, Razorbacks, etc)
I'm trying to build a Troops & HQs only, no-vehicle list to deny anti-tank weapons their effectiveness, and ironically it leaves very few anti-tank options for my list.
So far, I am thinking Missile Launchers, Frag cannons and Termies with Cyclone MLs are the only options. I do like the Frag Cannons for the versatility, but with only 24" range and damage 2, it doesn't seem all that effective. Like at all
What am I missing? Or am I just going to have to have Hammers do all the anti-vehicle work?
1. Can I fit a grenade launcher in my 5 man primaris team (with a sarge) or does RAW require 5 dudes and a sarge?
2. Cheapest heavy support option to pay the leviathan relic tax? I think I've settled on a quad mortar at 85ish points to give me some non-LOS backfield shooting but if anyone has had success with anything else around that price point please let me know.
Galef wrote: What are some decent ranged anti-vehicle options for DW?
Specifically not mounted on vehicles (so no Dreads, Razorbacks, etc)
I'm trying to build a Troops & HQs only, no-vehicle list to deny anti-tank weapons their effectiveness, and ironically it leaves very few anti-tank options for my list.
So far, I am thinking Missile Launchers, Frag cannons and Termies with Cyclone MLs are the only options. I do like the Frag Cannons for the versatility, but with only 24" range and damage 2, it doesn't seem all that effective. Like at all
What am I missing? Or am I just going to have to have Hammers do all the anti-vehicle work?
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Missiles and Plasma.
Massed plasma (either vanilla or combi-plas) synergize exceptionally with doctrine strategems and appropriate mission tactics. Against T7 they're wounding on rerollable 2s. Drop em in via deep strike at rapid fire range and gak melts.
CMLs still arent at a price point where they're viable IMO, as two vets with missiles are more efficient and redundant.
Honorable mention to the Storm Bolter Doctrine drop. 40 Vengeance shots with a +1 to wound aint nothing to sneeze at.
Unfortunately most of this goes sideways against a -1 to hit enemy, but them's the breaks if you're trying to go infantry only.
1. Can I fit a grenade launcher in my 5 man primaris team (with a sarge) or does RAW require 5 dudes and a sarge?
2. Cheapest heavy support option to pay the leviathan relic tax? I think I've settled on a quad mortar at 85ish points to give me some non-LOS backfield shooting but if anyone has had success with anything else around that price point please let me know.
It's not the cheapest, but a Contemptor Mortis is about as points efficient as one gets in a shooting platform, plus it comes with a baked in 5++ and 2+ BS.
Galef wrote: What are some decent ranged anti-vehicle options for DW?
Specifically not mounted on vehicles (so no Dreads, Razorbacks, etc)
I'm trying to build a Troops & HQs only, no-vehicle list to deny anti-tank weapons their effectiveness, and ironically it leaves very few anti-tank options for my list.
So far, I am thinking Missile Launchers, Frag cannons and Termies with Cyclone MLs are the only options. I do like the Frag Cannons for the versatility, but with only 24" range and damage 2, it doesn't seem all that effective. Like at all
What am I missing? Or am I just going to have to have Hammers do all the anti-vehicle work?
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Missiles and Plasma.
Massed plasma (either vanilla or combi-plas) synergize exceptionally with doctrine strategems and appropriate mission tactics. Against T7 they're wounding on rerollable 2s. Drop em in via deep strike at rapid fire range and gak melts.
CMLs still arent at a price point where they're viable IMO, as two vets with missiles are more efficient and redundant.
Honorable mention to the Storm Bolter Doctrine drop. 40 Vengeance shots with a +1 to wound aint nothing to sneeze at.
Unfortunately most of this goes sideways against a -1 to hit enemy, but them's the breaks if you're trying to go infantry only.
Thanks. I've actually got 1 VenDread that can be equipped with Twin-Las/ML but if that's the only vehicle in the list, it's kind of a big target.
With the right terrain/Deployment, would it still be worth putting it in a list with all Vets? Try to hide it turn 1 and move out to target a vehicle for deletion?
Thanks. I've actually got 1 VenDread that can be equipped with Twin-Las/ML but if that's the only vehicle in the list, it's kind of a big target.
With the right terrain/Deployment, would it still be worth putting it in a list with all Vets? Try to hide it turn 1 and move out to target a vehicle for deletion?
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Personal opinion: not really. Armor in general is a target saturation game.
With the way combat squadding works for Deathwatch you can get a heavy weapons team of two missiles and three SB/SS vets for a comparable price point. Yes you're gonna lose the S9 and BS 2+, but with WM support you've got similar accuracy, the capacity to camp out in cover for a 2+ save and the ever important 3++ ablative wounds is far more important.
It's the configuration I use for my backfield objective campers, while their other half in Biker/VanVet teams skirmish midfield. They dont let me down.
I have a side question about anti-vehicle options:
In my 2 Battalion DW list, I am also taking a Command detachment for Jetbike Shield Capts, because why not. They normally have Hurricane Bolters, but the Salvo Launcher has a Melta option that is basically a Mulit-Melta with reroll to wound against vehicles instead of the normal Melta rule.
While I think the Hurricane bolters are usually the best option for them, with my list having tons of SIA SBs and little in the way of anti-tank at range, would it be worthwhile to give my Sheild Captain Salvo Launchers instead?
I definitely don’t like the idea of only bringing 1 dread, I think you need a few or 0. Since discussing all infantry ideas, did you see mine on the bottom of the prior page(72)? I thought about vets with 2 mls, but decided to try using vanilla devs instead. Not troops, but cherubs up their mortal potential and gets some scouts too.
bort wrote: I definitely don’t like the idea of only bringing 1 dread, I think you need a few or 0. Since discussing all infantry ideas, did you see mine on the bottom of the prior page(72)? I thought about vets with 2 mls, but decided to try using vanilla devs instead. Not troops, but cherubs up their mortal potential and gets some scouts too.
I ussualy add an Patrol of SM for my Deatwatch ( Libby, scouts and a Devastator unit with HB and ML for MW, and also I add units to my Army without taking IG because I don't want them In my colection. Sometimes instead of a patrol I add a Deteachment.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You bring up my primary issue with Deathwatch. I WANT to run a lot of troops. However, the expensive HQ choices prevent me from doing so.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You bring up my primary issue with Deathwatch. I WANT to run a lot of troops. However, the expensive HQ choices prevent me from doing so.
A kingdom for DW techmarines
I have a feeling GW is holding out until they release a Primaris Techmarine and then DW will get access to just them like how it now works with the Apothecary.
Seems likely. I have no idea what they decide to pick/leave for army balance, but fluff wise DW should have techmarines, right? They have every other role and need their stuff maintained. But once you pay the primaris premium aren’t you looking at similar to a chaplain? I don’t have either cost in front of me.
Galef, DW are probably the worst Marines for infantry-based-AT in the game*. We don't get lascannons, plascannons, cherubs or nuffin. Frag at close range and missile launchers ain't going to cut it against a mech/knight list. Hellblasters are great, can be embedded in intercessor squads, and can deepstrike, AND get access to +1 to wound strats. However, they get countered by minus to hit factions, making your lists very rock paper scissors. Beacause of the above, and beacon, they can drop close though, to turn off the classic 12" minus, so there's that.
* After GKs, of course. Almost feels like that doesn't need saying anymore
Automatically Appended Next Post: So yeah, souping in Knights, AM or using dreads, especially FW ones, are really your best option imo. I know it's not what you wanted to hear.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You bring up my primary issue with Deathwatch. I WANT to run a lot of troops. However, the expensive HQ choices prevent me from doing so.
A kingdom for DW techmarines
They wouldn't be such a bad deal as all the Bolt weapons they carry would be SIA at BS2+. At least to fit in minimum requirements I wouldn't be apprehensive as I would be with any other Marines.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Galef wrote: I have a side question about anti-vehicle options:
In my 2 Battalion DW list, I am also taking a Command detachment for Jetbike Shield Capts, because why not.
They normally have Hurricane Bolters, but the Salvo Launcher has a Melta option that is basically a Mulit-Melta with reroll to wound against vehicles instead of the normal Melta rule.
While I think the Hurricane bolters are usually the best option for them, with my list having tons of SIA SBs and little in the way of anti-tank at range, would it be worthwhile to give my Sheild Captain Salvo Launchers instead?
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The difference is usually neglibable in Rapid Fire range, but for an army like Deathwatch the rerolling to wound will make a world of difference in skewing lists with multiple Knights. Assuming you have enough anti-infantry with your Deathwatch (you already do), the Salvo is worth the cost.
Plus they really aren't much more than the Hurricane Bolter so it isn't like you need to dedicate a lot of points into it.
grouchoben wrote: Galef, DW are probably the worst Marines for infantry-based-AT in the game*. We don't get lascannons, plascannons, cherubs or nuffin. Frag at close range and missile launchers ain't going to cut it against a mech/knight list. Hellblasters are great, can be embedded in intercessor squads, and can deepstrike, AND get access to +1 to wound strats. However, they get countered by minus to hit factions, making your lists very rock paper scissors. Beacause of the above, and beacon, they can drop close though, to turn off the classic 12" minus, so there's that.
* After GKs, of course. Almost feels like that doesn't need saying anymore
Automatically Appended Next Post: So yeah, souping in Knights, AM or using dreads, especially FW ones, are really your best option imo. I know it's not what you wanted to hear.
Thanx. I've decided to go with the Salvo Launchers on my Shield Captains. 3 Melta Missiles should help put some hurt on key vehicles.
I'm actually ok with not having tons of AT at range, I'm building my list to be up close and personal and 6+ Hammers should do well enough against most vehicles.
Speaking of up close and personal: Anyone have any fun stories or tactic using the Beacon Angelis?
I'm adding it to a Jump Captain and either dropping him in turn 2 or moving him up to use it Turn 1.
I have a unit with 3 SS/SB Vets, 2 Frag Cannons, a Terminator and a VV.
"Shunt" that unit into 12" range to use the shell rounds on a vehicle. SS and Termie should keep the unit alive (or at least a huge distraction) and prep the unit for a Turn 2 burn with the Frag rounds. Which may also deter getting charge, but just in case, the VV will allow them to fall back and still shoot.
Also like the idea of using the Beacon to "refuse flank". Set up 2 large units on each flank with the Capt either in the middle or in Reserve. Cap arrives/move to one flank and pulls the big unit on the opposite flank towards him. Now both large units are on the same side.
I dunno because, to refuse flanking, I'm a VERY big fan of Tarantula Sentry Guns as you might've guessed. 37 points for a TL Heavy Bolter to plop basically anywhere is a pretty frickin good deal for an army that has a lot of expensive toys.
grouchoben wrote: Galef, DW are probably the worst Marines for infantry-based-AT in the game*. We don't get lascannons, plascannons, cherubs or nuffin. Frag at close range and missile launchers ain't going to cut it against a mech/knight list. Hellblasters are great, can be embedded in intercessor squads, and can deepstrike, AND get access to +1 to wound strats. However, they get countered by minus to hit factions, making your lists very rock paper scissors. Beacause of the above, and beacon, they can drop close though, to turn off the classic 12" minus, so there's that.
* After GKs, of course. Almost feels like that doesn't need saying anymore
Automatically Appended Next Post: So yeah, souping in Knights, AM or using dreads, especially FW ones, are really your best option imo. I know it's not what you wanted to hear.
What are the minus to hit factions and are they a threat that weight of SIA fire can't solve?
based on initial talks about GSC and their ability to get closer for easier charges from deep strike, I think the 'ole frag cannon might be back on the menu. Shame we don;t get a strategem specific for GSC, or do their characters have the Synapse rule like nids?
grouchoben wrote: However, they get countered by minus to hit factions, making your lists very rock paper scissors. Beacause of the above, and beacon, they can drop close though, to turn off the classic 12" minus, so there's that.
What are the minus to hit factions and are they a threat that weight of SIA fire can't solve?
Eldar lists make hellblasters pretty pointless in my experience. Waveserpents, Hemlocks & Harlies in particular. SIA can do work for sure, especially if you're flush with CPs. But then, why are you bringing Hellblasters at that point?
I still use them quite a bit, but I don't think I'd bring them to a tournament.
I am going to order a Leviathan to Forgeworld beffore Brexit makes it even more expensive. My question is: which arms should I buy for using it mostly with my Deathwatch?
I am going to order a Leviathan to Forgeworld beffore Brexit makes it even more expensive. My question is: which arms should I buy for using it mostly with my Deathwatch?
Go for 2x SCA.
With a WM as support and the +1 to wound stratagem they kill almost everything
20 shots, hitting on 2's, rerolling 1's gets you 18-20 hits every turn. Str 7 with +1 to wound and reroll 1's from doctrine is landing 11+ wounds every go round, and -2 ap means at least half those are going through. 2 damage a pop means you rarely waste any of that damage.
If you can pick up 2 of these bad boys your gonna be making enemies.
They don't die easy either. 14 wounds at T8 with a 4++ is pretty durable.
I am going to order a Leviathan to Forgeworld beffore Brexit makes it even more expensive. My question is: which arms should I buy for using it mostly with my Deathwatch?
As much as I love the Storm Array for extra dakka, DW always struggles against armor so I would put at least one cyclonic melta lance to help out and one storm array.
grouchoben wrote: However, they get countered by minus to hit factions, making your lists very rock paper scissors. Beacause of the above, and beacon, they can drop close though, to turn off the classic 12" minus, so there's that.
What are the minus to hit factions and are they a threat that weight of SIA fire can't solve?
Eldar lists make hellblasters pretty pointless in my experience. Waveserpents, Hemlocks & Harlies in particular. SIA can do work for sure, especially if you're flush with CPs. But then, why are you bringing Hellblasters at that point?
I still use them quite a bit, but I don't think I'd bring them to a tournament.
You're probably bringing Hellblasters because we aren't tailoring lists to specific opponents and you've decided not to play cutthroat list by intentionally limiting yourself to infantry AT - you know, the whole question at hand here.
SIA SB can solve some of those Eldar issues, especially against Harlies, when AP becomes irrelevant and -1 to hit encourages weight of fire, or Wave Serpents where all damage is reduced and you'll probably be unable up hit it with a low quantity of high quality shots anyway. We don't need a single solution that applies to every threat, just enough solutions across the list to take all comers. Given the user's self imposed limitations, Hellblasters having a few weak matchups that can be covered by other solutions is a relevant point.
I am going to order a Leviathan to Forgeworld beffore Brexit makes it even more expensive. My question is: which arms should I buy for using it mostly with my Deathwatch?
As much as I love the Storm Array for extra dakka, DW always struggles against armor so I would put at least one cyclonic melta lance to help out and one storm array.
In what manner is the Storm Array struggling with being AT?
You're probably bringing Hellblasters because we aren't tailoring lists to specific opponents and you've decided not to play cutthroat list by intentionally limiting yourself to infantry AT - you know, the whole question at hand here.
Preparing for Ynnari, Deldar and Eldar-soup isn't 'list tailoring', its just preparing to face the best armies in the game, that's all. It's not about cuthroat, just about prep for competitive play. If we're talking about beer and pretzels, well then anything goes, right?
I've got nothing against HBs, I said as much in my post. I use them, I like them, andif possible my fave tactic is to deploy a big fortis HB squad on each flank, then refuse with the beacon. It's great fun, and pretty effective. But it's not optimal for competitive play. I think you already know this though.
My main question about Hellblasters is this... how much anti-tank is actually needed against the Eldar with -1 to hit? I ask because I don't have many Eldar (and their variants) players in my local meta to be able to come to a logical opinion on it.
The anti-tank I typically have a need for seems to all come from factions that can't do -1 to hit, so the Hellblasters perform admirably. All of this said I still prefer Dreads but if I was trying to strip away my opponent's anti-tank firepower's efficiency it seems that Hellblasters would still be passable.
Well, Hemlocks, Fire Prisms, CHExarchs & Wave Serpents are the big targets where AT would be handy I suppose. Hellblasters are going to have a bad time against those four, except against non-Alaitoc Fire Prisms.
grouchoben wrote: Well, Hemlocks, Fire Prisms, CHExarchs & Wave Serpents are the big targets where AT would be handy I suppose. Hellblasters are going to have a bad time against those four, except against non-Alaitoc Fire Prisms.
As an Eldar player, I'd prefer to be facing Primaris units over StormVets. All that AP-3/4 D2 weapons in our arsenal puts Primaris to bed fast. But you get some 3++ spread out and all that shooting becomes much less effective.
I'd fear a melee-base DW army far more than a shooting one for this reason. Get some Jump pack Thunder hammers in close and our tanks/flyers are in for a bad day.
If you spread out enough, there is little place to hide/run.
That's one of the reasons I am putting bikes & VVs in my Kill teams. That speed not only gets you in close for melee, but as long a 1 model is within 12", the whole unit ignores the -1 to hit penalty for Alaitoc. Add in a couple Smash Captain dropping in, one with the Beacon to pull a unit close and that makes the fight that much more difficult for Eldar.
They'll still have the advantage, because Eldar, but you'll have a fighting chance
grouchoben wrote: Well, Hemlocks, Fire Prisms, CHExarchs & Wave Serpents are the big targets where AT would be handy I suppose. Hellblasters are going to have a bad time against those four, except against non-Alaitoc Fire Prisms.
Dont discount things like Vypers, Hornets or Walkers. Their higher toughness makes Plasma the ideal countermeasure, but the -1 to hit downfield, plus solid mobility, makes that problematic.
Someone mentioned Harlequins as a problem with AT? I play against them very frequently and the deathwatch have no problem against their low T low wounds vehicles. Just use +1 to wound strat and unload lots of SIA into them. I get around the -1 to hit them with rerolls. My eldar opponents really hate it when I use our eldar strat to light them up in their own movement phase.
Speculation question: If DW Vets have the option to take Storm Bolters removed (because the plastic kits does not have any, and if they are the "best build" right now due to SIA and the Bolter Discipline rule) is there a bolter-equivalent that is comparable. Would it just be the Stalker or just a regular bolter? Maybe the DW shotgun?
Basically, if a bunch of players (myself included) build StormVets and the SB is taken away, what could we swap the SBs for? Of would this basically put Intercessors back on the menu as default Troop?
Galef wrote: Speculation question: If DW Vets have the option to take Storm Bolters removed (because the plastic kits does not have any, and if they are the "best build" right now due to SIA and the Bolter Discipline rule) is there a bolter-equivalent that is comparable.
Would it just be the Stalker or just a regular bolter? Maybe the DW shotgun?
Basically, if a bunch of players (myself included) build StormVets and the SB is taken away, what could we swap the SBs for?
Of would this basically put Intercessors back on the menu as default Troop?
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I doubt that storm bolters would be removed, more likely you'd just see SIA removed from the storm bolter (I don't think it had it in 7th). If it does get removed DW vets become much worse.
Galef wrote: Speculation question: If DW Vets have the option to take Storm Bolters removed (because the plastic kits does not have any, and if they are the "best build" right now due to SIA and the Bolter Discipline rule) is there a bolter-equivalent that is comparable.
Would it just be the Stalker or just a regular bolter? Maybe the DW shotgun?
Basically, if a bunch of players (myself included) build StormVets and the SB is taken away, what could we swap the SBs for?
Of would this basically put Intercessors back on the menu as default Troop?
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The option in wargear is unlikely to ever disappear, but I suppose it could happen. I think, in order of most to least likely, we'd likely be looking at...
The storm bolter losing SIA except for models with the CHARACTER and TERMINATOR keywords
The storm bolter has its profile changed from being a simulation of two taped together bolters (rapid fire 2) and instead becoming something else entirely like - assault, for example
Some other bolter buff hits that boosts the boltgun but either doesn't affect or barely affects the storm bolter
An errata removes the option from Veterans entirely
You guys prefer the bolter drill rule or the standart get close rule?
I still have to try the new BETA rule.
Id say the new BETA rule makes black shield vets even more useless?
I‘d say with good army deployment you could even save yourself the CP for the deep strike stratagem.
ImPhaeronWeasel wrote: You guys prefer the bolter drill rule or the standart get close rule?
I still have to try the new BETA rule.
Id say the new BETA rule makes black shield vets even more useless?
I‘d say with good army deployment you could even save yourself the CP for the deep strike stratagem.
More useless? Black Shields are ace, man.
But if you're never ever going to ever benefit from free melee attacks without reprisal, then I guess save the minor point cost for adding one.
Galef wrote: Speculation question: If DW Vets have the option to take Storm Bolters removed (because the plastic kits does not have any, and if they are the "best build" right now due to SIA and the Bolter Discipline rule) is there a bolter-equivalent that is comparable.
Would it just be the Stalker or just a regular bolter? Maybe the DW shotgun?
Basically, if a bunch of players (myself included) build StormVets and the SB is taken away, what could we swap the SBs for?
Of would this basically put Intercessors back on the menu as default Troop?
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The option in wargear is unlikely to ever disappear, but I suppose it could happen. I think, in order of most to least likely, we'd likely be looking at...
The storm bolter losing SIA except for models with the CHARACTER and TERMINATOR keywords
The storm bolter has its profile changed from being a simulation of two taped together bolters (rapid fire 2) and instead becoming something else entirely like - assault, for example
Some other bolter buff hits that boosts the boltgun but either doesn't affect or barely affects the storm bolter
An errata removes the option from Veterans entirely
After we FINALLY get SIA on Storm Bolters? The outcry would be way too great.
They're really fine at 4 points because it's an 18 point model with MEQ durability. The problem afterwards is the cheap Storm Shields.
I still don't get the new super excitement, honestly. I'll grant DW seem pretty popular, so I could just be missing something, but the exact same unit build was possible before storm shields went down in price. Way back when the codex first came out, people used the same Vet unit and still had like 4 storm shields in a squad with storm bolters. 4 shields for 20pts to 6 for 12pts isn't exactly game changing. Add in the termie drop and you're getting 20pts back, tops.
I originally assumed the trendy wave was due to a combo of not only that modest Vet squad price drop, but also the 25% cut on venerables or access to knights to provide the missing AT, and then the bolter rule making everyone look at storm bolters and everyone who'd never looked at DW before going "omg, look at all the storm bolters DW can take!" Yeah, storm bolters on units that usually deep struck or teleported into 12" already, so are not getting a buff until the turn after landing.
All this leads to me agreeing Vets are much better than primaris, unfortunately, but seeing as how DW was low tier before I'll be pretty surprised if this bumps DW to OP nerfing range. There's plenty of other crazy nonmarine shooting units out there. I feel like if Vets get nerfed it'll be due to making other marines look bad, not cause they're too OP compared to other races.
I keep seeing references and tactics saying DW "have to deep strike", but I really don't see why. Sure it gets the DW Vets in RF on the turn they arrive, be it also means the unit isn't shooting at all on turn 1. With Bolter Discipline and Kraken bolts, you can do plenty of damage turn. And with cheaper SS, you have more durability for that turn.
Certainly 1 unit in Teleporarium is good, but do we really need to spend precious CPs to put more units off the table doing nothing turn 1?
Galef wrote: I keep seeing references and tactics saying DW "have to deep strike", but I really don't see why. Sure it gets the DW Vets in RF on the turn they arrive, be it also means the unit isn't shooting at all on turn 1. With Bolter Discipline and Kraken bolts, you can do plenty of damage turn. And with cheaper SS, you have more durability for that turn.
Certainly 1 unit in Teleporarium is good, but do we really need to spend precious CPs to put more units off the table doing nothing turn 1?
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You gotta think of them as Beta Strike, not Alpha Strike, and a way to keep them safe an extra turn without using a Rhino.
Galef wrote: I keep seeing references and tactics saying DW "have to deep strike", but I really don't see why. Sure it gets the DW Vets in RF on the turn they arrive, be it also means the unit isn't shooting at all on turn 1. With Bolter Discipline and Kraken bolts, you can do plenty of damage turn. And with cheaper SS, you have more durability for that turn.
Certainly 1 unit in Teleporarium is good, but do we really need to spend precious CPs to put more units off the table doing nothing turn 1?
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You gotta think of them as Beta Strike, not Alpha Strike, and a way to keep them safe an extra turn without using a Rhino.
So what do you have on the table turn 1? Intercessors, perhaps?
So what do you have on the table turn 1? Intercessors, perhaps? -
Vets, combat squadded Bikes/VV teams, Dreads, allies, etc.
Force your opponent out Turn 1, punch a landing zone through their screen, then drop the heavy hitters Turn 2.
Yeah, that makes sense. Unfortunately for me, I am requiring myself to take 6 Troops and 4 HQs minimum to get 2 Battalion for max CPs. That doesn't leave much room for 10-man units that can be combat squadded. Especially since I'm also including 3 Custodes Shield captains
Galef wrote: I keep seeing references and tactics saying DW "have to deep strike", but I really don't see why. Sure it gets the DW Vets in RF on the turn they arrive, be it also means the unit isn't shooting at all on turn 1. With Bolter Discipline and Kraken bolts, you can do plenty of damage turn. And with cheaper SS, you have more durability for that turn.
Certainly 1 unit in Teleporarium is good, but do we really need to spend precious CPs to put more units off the table doing nothing turn 1?
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You gotta think of them as Beta Strike, not Alpha Strike, and a way to keep them safe an extra turn without using a Rhino.
So what do you have on the table turn 1? Intercessors, perhaps?
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Honestly my list fluctuates a whole lot. From memory I think the last list I used that was basically pure was, and forgive me for being slightly inaccurate:
Terminator Watch Captain w/ Relic Blade and Dominus Aegis
Terminator Watch Captain w/ Storm Bolter, Fist + Melta and Bane Bolts
2 squads of ×5 Vets w/ Stalker Bolters, ×3 Bikers w/ Chainswords, ×2 Vanguard w/ Bolt Pistols and Storm Shields
2 Squads of ×5 Vets w/ Storm Bolters, ×3 Vets w/ Frag Cannons, ×1 Terminator w/ Storm Bolter and Power Sword, ×1 Vanguard w/ Chainsword and Storm Shield
1 Squad of ×5 Vets w/ Shotguns, ×3 Vets w/ Frag Cannons, ×1 Terminator w/ Assault Cannon and Power Sword, ×1 Vet w/ Chainsword and Storm Shield
×3 Ven Dreads w/ LasML
×4 Tarantula Sentry Guns w/ TL Heavy Bolters (3 separate entries with one squad being two of course, just to help clarify any potential confusion)
I think the list a bit off 2000 points, but I'm pretty darn low on CP. The idea would be to remove the Sentry Guns (as much as I love them) and something else to make room for the Loyal 32 for extra CP. That's why I talked about HQ cost being so prohibitive for this army. My TWO guys aren't even that fancy and still take up like 10% of the army.
bort wrote: I still don't get the new super excitement, honestly. I'll grant DW seem pretty popular, so I could just be missing something, but the exact same unit build was possible before storm shields went down in price. Way back when the codex first came out, people used the same Vet unit and still had like 4 storm shields in a squad with storm bolters. 4 shields for 20pts to 6 for 12pts isn't exactly game changing. Add in the termie drop and you're getting 20pts back, tops.
Ss/Sb is down 20% in cost from 25pts to 20. Combined with the termi drop, the optimal vet loadout is now competitively priced. Take a team of 8 ss/sb, a cheap termi and a pistol VV (also down); that's down 52 pts or therabouts per squad. Multiply by three for a batallion and you've saved over 150pts. That's a big deal in a 1750pt game, it makes them real contenders for one of a soup list's batallions: it's almost a 'free' loyal 32 batallion...
How have you guys been running your special weapons? I’m talking frag cannons, plasma guns etc.
Currently I have 4 frag and 4 plasma in a squad to drop in and delete anything non knight. ( I usually pop the +1 to wound strat) but with genestealer cult coming out I’m considering splitting up my frags into my 2 storm bolter units. Thoughts?
demontalons wrote: How have you guys been running your special weapons? I’m talking frag cannons, plasma guns etc.
Currently I have 4 frag and 4 plasma in a squad to drop in and delete anything non knight. ( I usually pop the +1 to wound strat) but with genestealer cult coming out I’m considering splitting up my frags into my 2 storm bolter units. Thoughts?
I take Frag Cannon and a couple of Frag Cannon only for the squads that also spams SB/SS. I may also take Heavy Bolter plus Missile Launcher on the squads taking Stalker Pattern Boltguns, if they exists.
demontalons wrote: How have you guys been running your special weapons? I’m talking frag cannons, plasma guns etc.
Currently I have 4 frag and 4 plasma in a squad to drop in and delete anything non knight. ( I usually pop the +1 to wound strat) but with genestealer cult coming out I’m considering splitting up my frags into my 2 storm bolter units. Thoughts?
I take Frag Cannon and a couple of Frag Cannon only for the squads that also spams SB/SS. I may also take Heavy Bolter plus Missile Launcher on the squads taking Stalker Pattern Boltguns, if they exists.
I do this exact thing. The ML and HB are for using the mortal strats. Frags I use for its AT flexibility and as a charge deterrent for the Ss/SB squads.
Sorry if this has been covered already but I'm thinking about starting a Deathwatch army, and going through the codex, and taking into consideration the new beta bolter rules I'm having a hard time deciding between intercessors and vets as my troops choices.
They both seem very good now. Is the stormbolter vets plus ability to take SS's just better then intercessor loadouts plus 2 wounds?
bobafett012 wrote: Sorry if this has been covered already but I'm thinking about starting a Deathwatch army, and going through the codex, and taking into consideration the new beta bolter rules I'm having a hard time deciding between intercessors and vets as my troops choices.
They both seem very good now. Is the stormbolter vets plus ability to take SS's just better then intercessor loadouts plus 2 wounds?
They both work better in different situations. Intercessors are better suited to a long range defense, with an auxiliary grenade launcher per squad. Vets do much better at close range with points invested in special weapons or melee options. Look at your list and how it should win, then decide accordingly.
I set up a forward line and fall back to keep the enemy at range. To that end I deploy some 60 primaris intercessors. A fellow DeathWatch player I sometimes face drops an almost equal number of vets (many with Stormbolters or Frag Cannons) that he teleports in for a brutal 8" zone of pain that shreds anything less than 3+ armor. We both deploy hellblaster squads to take out the big stuff.
The main thing to keep in mind is Primaris will overall take less wounds from Smite. Unless your area is spamming Smite, Vets with Storm Bolters are still king due to prolific multi-damage weapons and easily accessed Storm Shields.
Right now I prefer StormVets as the majority of my army, with just 1 Intercessor unit in the backfield.
But I am also preparing my self for the possibility that SB gets removed as a option on Vets (because the kits doesn't include any and with SIA + Bolter Discipline and cheap SS, it seems a logical choice for GW to tone down DW Vets)
If the SB option does get removed from the DW equipment list, than Intercessors will be the obvious choice, IMO.
Galef wrote: Right now I prefer StormVets as the majority of my army, with just 1 Intercessor unit in the backfield.
But I am also preparing my self for the possibility that SB gets removed as a option on Vets (because the kits doesn't include any and with SIA + Bolter Discipline and cheap SS, it seems a logical choice for GW to tone down DW Vets)
If the SB option does get removed from the DW equipment list, than Intercessors will be the obvious choice, IMO.
How are people modeling all these SBs on their Deathwatch if they aren't on the sprue? What SBs is everyone using?
Another question about vets squads, is it worth taking any of the non vets for the bonuses like the vanguard to get the fallback and shoot or a biker to fall back and charge etc? Seems like adding in Terminator with SB/SS wound be a good investment just to soak hits and put out 4 extra shots a turn.
Oh, also, where are people getting their dreadnought MLs from? Maybe it’s just the kit versions I had, but the other night I realized I have 6 dreads/venerables from various sources and yet somehow only a single kit came with a ML.
Personally all my stormbolters are just double barreled bolters. Not sure how tournaments would feel about them but they look cool and works for my group
Versatilebeats wrote: Personally all my stormbolters are just double barreled bolters. Not sure how tournaments would feel about them but they look cool and works for my group
It is tolerated in my local gaming club tournament that proxying the bolter on the DW veteran as Stormbolter.
Galef wrote: Right now I prefer StormVets as the majority of my army, with just 1 Intercessor unit in the backfield.
But I am also preparing my self for the possibility that SB gets removed as a option on Vets (because the kits doesn't include any and with SIA + Bolter Discipline and cheap SS, it seems a logical choice for GW to tone down DW Vets)
If the SB option does get removed from the DW equipment list, than Intercessors will be the obvious choice, IMO.
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Storm Bolters are in the index. You're fine.
Storm bolters are in the Codex so we're fine. But what happens if GW specifically FAQs the option away to balance the combo of Bolter discipline, special issue ammunition and cheap storm shields? It would make sense because the kit doesn't actually have any SBs
But that's just my speculation for now. But on topic, I'm using GKs as the base for my StormVets. The box comes with more SBs than actual models to put them on.
bobafett012 wrote: How are people modeling all these SBs on their Deathwatch if they aren't on the sprue? What SBs is everyone using?
Another question about vets squads, is it worth taking any of the non vets for the bonuses like the vanguard to get the fallback and shoot or a biker to fall back and charge etc? Seems like adding in Terminator with SB/SS wound be a good investment just to soak hits and put out 4 extra shots a turn.
In my search someone had posted a link to shapeways, so I just order 30 SB's for like 15$. Will take a little work to get them on but should work out.
Have not taken any intercessors, just lean on soup to cover anything else.
I haven't tried running any math, but I bet intercessors would be pretty good if DW ones could use that Vigilus strat to up grade to vets for +1A and 1cp double shoot.
It isn't they can effectively doubleshoot already with stormbolters that intercessors can't take. So Vets can do the samething, essentially for free with no CP cost.
5 sb/ss veterans are 100 pts with a 3++ and 20 shots vs 5 intercessors for 90, 10 shots and that have two wounds but only have a 3+.
bobafett012 wrote: How are people modeling all these SBs on their Deathwatch if they aren't on the sprue? What SBs is everyone using?
Another question about vets squads, is it worth taking any of the non vets for the bonuses like the vanguard to get the fallback and shoot or a biker to fall back and charge etc? Seems like adding in Terminator with SB/SS wound be a good investment just to soak hits and put out 4 extra shots a turn.
In my search someone had posted a link to shapeways, so I just order 30 SB's for like 15$. Will take a little work to get them on but should work out.
Have not taken any intercessors, just lean on soup to cover anything else.
FW also makes some nice Combi-Bolters that come with the Alpha Legion unit upgrade kit. Just use the additional bitz somewhere and you're gold.
True, I forgot the points were so close now and the army already has lots of cp sinks. But 4x at 30” range and ap-1 before SIA isn’t too shabby. I like it more than stalker vets anyways.
bobafett012 wrote: How are people modeling all these SBs on their Deathwatch if they aren't on the sprue? What SBs is everyone using?
Another question about vets squads, is it worth taking any of the non vets for the bonuses like the vanguard to get the fallback and shoot or a biker to fall back and charge etc? Seems like adding in Terminator with SB/SS wound be a good investment just to soak hits and put out 4 extra shots a turn.
I either buy SB bits off eBay or I take othe bolter and convert them into storm bolters. I got a bunch of heresy marines in a trade. So I take the bolters and sand 1 side of each bolter flat them glue the two together. Looks great and is easily identifiable.
bort wrote: I haven't tried running any math, but I bet intercessors would be pretty good if DW ones could use that Vigilus strat to up grade to vets for +1A and 1cp double shoot.
Galef wrote: Right now I prefer StormVets as the majority of my army, with just 1 Intercessor unit in the backfield.
But I am also preparing my self for the possibility that SB gets removed as a option on Vets (because the kits doesn't include any and with SIA + Bolter Discipline and cheap SS, it seems a logical choice for GW to tone down DW Vets)
If the SB option does get removed from the DW equipment list, than Intercessors will be the obvious choice, IMO.
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Storm Bolters are in the index. You're fine.
Storm bolters are in the Codex so we're fine. But what happens if GW specifically FAQs the option away to balance the combo of Bolter discipline, special issue ammunition and cheap storm shields? It would make sense because the kit doesn't actually have any SBs
But that's just my speculation for now. But on topic, I'm using GKs as the base for my StormVets. The box comes with more SBs than actual models to put them on.
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More likely they'll take SIA away unless it's a Terminator or Character.
What everyone should probably be afraid of is them limiting storm shields to partner with melee weapons only.
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bort wrote: Right, I said if they could. Then maybe Intercessors would be worth at least a quick look unlike now.
Still won't be valuable...
Those 2CP saved would mean a doctrine you couldn't pop. They'll never be worth a look again as long as storm bolter Vets stay so cheap and still shoot SIA. Now with Bolter Discipline they aren't even worth holding objectives compared to Vets.
The storm bolter makes every weapon option on a Vet a waste of points when instead you could just buy more storm bolter Vets.
More likely they'll take SIA away unless it's a Terminator or Character.
What everyone should probably be afraid of is them limiting storm shields to partner with melee weapons only.
I've seen both of these suggested, and neither makes any sense to me. StormVets are really the only unit that comes close to OP with the combination of SIA, Bolter Discipline and cheap SS combined. Every other unit with that can use any of those, really needs to boost. And it seems very clunky to remove SIA from SB, but not on Termies or Characters.
No, because the DW Vet plastic kit does not include SBs at all, it seems to make far more sense (from what GW has done in the past) to just FAQSBs out of the Deathwatch equipment list entirely. This will terminate several cyber-eagles with a single projectile. -GW could then claim the DW kit comes with more of its available options, -they can keep the cheap SS because now you'd only have bolters, combi-weapons and melee weapon to pair with them, -and Intercessors will seem more appealing by contrast, which would only help GW sales.
So removing the SB from DW Vets tones down the only "OP" combo of all the ruels they get, while not totally nerfing then (they do still have tons of options). I'm not saying this will happen, just my opinion that if anything were to change, this is the most likely candidate.
Versatilebeats wrote: The top deathwatch player got what 47th place at Lvo? Sb/ss vets are far from op
That's good news (well, sort of). Despite my belief that the logical "solution" GW would impose being the removal of SBs from the DW equipment list, I really don't want that to happen. As long as DW armies do not place very high at events, I don't think there will be any change forthcoming.
Andrew Gonyo's DW list did pretty good actually. getting in the top 50 is amazing and proves either you are a top tier player or your army is super good.
You really only needed one bad game to drop 40-80 places. Also, since bolter buff wasn't in effectat the LVO expect Deathwatch to do even better coming up.
Versatilebeats wrote: The top deathwatch player got what 47th place at Lvo? Sb/ss vets are far from op
What was the list out of curiosity?
If it's the same one he played in January it was a combined Deathwatch and Sisters list with Bobby G as a beatstick. The DW component is only ~800 points (three ten man Vet teams with the usual Biker, Termie and VanVet trimmings plus HQs).
Versatilebeats wrote: The top deathwatch player got what 47th place at Lvo? Sb/ss vets are far from op
Nice job moving the goalposts, champ. Nobody said they were OP, just that they were hands down the best choice for kit and because of that they push out all the other options.
And even then they aren't even that great. Though I will say finishing in the top 7% of the tournament is pretty good.
The fixation on tournament placement for ITCHammer when everyone else plays Warhammer is kind of idiotic, too. But that's not your fault - that's a dakka trait.
The real issue is that by highlighting their placement you think that absolves the storm bolter of its position as the king because in your eyes it isn't all that great anyway. Well imagine how fething horrid the rest of the options are if the storm bolter/storm shield DW Vet still isn't placing. It means gak is broken, son. That's what it means.
Versatilebeats wrote: The top deathwatch player got what 47th place at Lvo? Sb/ss vets are far from op
Nice job moving the goalposts, champ. Nobody said they were OP, just that they were hands down the best choice for kit and because of that they push out all the other options.
And even then they aren't even that great. Though I will say finishing in the top 7% of the tournament is pretty good.
The fixation on tournament placement for ITCHammer when everyone else plays Warhammer is kind of idiotic, too. But that's not your fault - that's a dakka trait.
The real issue is that by highlighting their placement you think that absolves the storm bolter of its position as the king because in your eyes it isn't all that great anyway. Well imagine how fething horrid the rest of the options are if the storm bolter/storm shield DW Vet still isn't placing. It means gak is broken, son. That's what it means.
I definitely don't think it absolves the Storm Shield of the absurd cost it has currently. Plus the guy above me said the player was using the same list...how many Storm Shields is that?
I still say my list is a stronger list, even without the soup, but I think every DW player at the LVO had at least 3-5 wins which is pretty good overall.
Once they get that bolter buff its gonna be scary.
I definitely don't think it absolves the Storm Shield of the absurd cost it has currently. Plus the guy above me said the player was using the same list...how many Storm Shields is that?
Eighteen. Calling it a DW primary army is quite a stretch when you're putting Celestine *and* Rowboat on the board.
And even then they aren't even that great. Though I will say finishing in the top 7% of the tournament is pretty good.
The real issue is that by highlighting their placement you think that absolves the storm bolter of its position as the king because in your eyes it isn't all that great anyway. Well imagine how fething horrid the rest of the options are if the storm bolter/storm shield DW Vet still isn't placing. It means gak is broken, son. That's what it means.
Exactly the other options may be horrid in comparison to the stormbolter/shield but that says more about needing to up the power or drop the points on those comparatively. I would love for them to do that as most of guys were modeled for what I thought looked cool. There’s only so many arms I can cut off. Winneate of 44% pre chapter approved win rate of 57% post chapter approved (40k stats.com) obviously the points drop in Veterns, termites and shields have made a big impact on our list to where we are same win% power level wise as unmarried, tyrannids, gsc, eldar. I don’t think that’s necessarily a bad thing.
bobafett012 wrote: So how come everyone thinks the Blackstar isn't any good? At first glance it seems pretty decent?
Also, storm bolter's for DW are still 4 points right?
It has to choose between subpar output or subpar survivability. It needs to keep moving to stay alive and do its job, but that drops its WS to 4+ for most of its guns. The bombs almost never do anything either. It's not terrible and it delivers frag cannons admirably, but there are just generally better ways to spend those points. That doesn't stop me from fielding mine, but I'm aware I could easily replace it most of the time.
bobafett012 wrote: So how come everyone thinks the Blackstar isn't any good? At first glance it seems pretty decent?
Also, storm bolter's for DW are still 4 points right?
It has to choose between subpar output or subpar survivability. It needs to keep moving to stay alive and do its job, but that drops its WS to 4+ for most of its guns. The bombs almost never do anything either. It's not terrible and it delivers frag cannons admirably, but there are just generally better ways to spend those points. That doesn't stop me from fielding mine, but I'm aware I could easily replace it most of the time.
gak, tbh, I totally forgot about it only hitting on 4's because my ravenwing flyers all have strafing run so they get the +1 to hit. Hmmmm, that definitely changes my assessment quite a bit. I was considering taking 2 or 3 for anti vehicle support
So I'm trying to avoid adding any Vehicles to my list just to deny anti-vehicle weapons their ideal targets, however, if I were to add some vehicle for some much needed anti-tank, what would be the better option:
2 VenDread w/ TwinLas/ML or
2 Helverin Armigers?
The Dreads don't have a degrading profile are better at specifically targeting tanks, but the Armigers will have more wounds, shots, are faster and have a 5++
Thoughts? (btw the bulk if my list will be Storm Vets in 2 Battalions)
If you want pure unvarnished AT, go with QuadLas Contemptor Mortis dreads. Innate 2+ BS, a 5++ and the capacity to synergize with the rest of your Deathwatch goodies is bloody fantastic for cheaper than an Armiger.
Sterling191 wrote: If you want pure unvarnished AT, go with QuadLas Contemptor Mortis dreads. Innate 2+ BS, a 5++ and the capacity to synergize with the rest of your Deathwatch goodies is bloody fantastic for cheaper than an Armiger.
Thanx, I hadn't considered FW options (I never do) but yeah, that's pretty nasty for true AT. And the Mortis Dread seems like the perfect compromise between the 2.
Sterling191 wrote: If you want pure unvarnished AT, go with QuadLas Contemptor Mortis dreads. Innate 2+ BS, a 5++ and the capacity to synergize with the rest of your Deathwatch goodies is bloody fantastic for cheaper than an Armiger.
Thanx, I hadn't considered FW options (I never do) but yeah, that's pretty nasty for true AT. And the Mortis Dread seems like the perfect compromise between the 2.
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Just pop a second twin-las onto a VenDread and call it a day. No need to pay absurd prices for it.
I use a Mortis as my Heavy Support to unlock the Leviathan and its not bad. It's no where near as efficient as a Contemptor Mortis on its own, but it gets pretty close as long as you have a Watch Master to let it reroll all failed shots. It also can't really move but doesn't really need to move either. Probably its biggest issue is just that without an invul or damage shrug, it falls apart pretty quickly if it gets targeted. Still, if you've already got a Dread and a way to slap on another Twin Las, it does the job just fine.
Sterling191 wrote: If you want pure unvarnished AT, go with QuadLas Contemptor Mortis dreads. Innate 2+ BS, a 5++ and the capacity to synergize with the rest of your Deathwatch goodies is bloody fantastic for cheaper than an Armiger.
Those aren't considered Relic units are they? If not, using the Elite slot on those isn't a terrible idea.
I know I'm just using the regular Ven Dreads with my Aegis + Relic Blade Captain (I know, even *I* want to bust out specific models from time to time. *ME*), but being able to commit to, well, no babysitters isn't a bad idea. If only competitive games were played at larger point levels...
Sterling191 wrote: If you want pure unvarnished AT, go with QuadLas Contemptor Mortis dreads. Innate 2+ BS, a 5++ and the capacity to synergize with the rest of your Deathwatch goodies is bloody fantastic for cheaper than an Armiger.
Those aren't considered Relic units are they? If not, using the Elite slot on those isn't a terrible idea.
I know I'm just using the regular Ven Dreads with my Aegis + Relic Blade Captain (I know, even *I* want to bust out specific models from time to time. *ME*), but being able to commit to, well, no babysitters isn't a bad idea. If only competitive games were played at larger point levels...
Nope, the Mortis and C. Mortis are not considered Relics, and they're Heavy Support so can be used to pay the Leviathan relic tax. Remember, the quadlas C Mortis is only ~25 points more than the TL/ML Ven. You're looking at about a 65-70 point differential when you factor in not having to take the Aegis.
Sterling191 wrote: If you want pure unvarnished AT, go with QuadLas Contemptor Mortis dreads. Innate 2+ BS, a 5++ and the capacity to synergize with the rest of your Deathwatch goodies is bloody fantastic for cheaper than an Armiger.
Those aren't considered Relic units are they? If not, using the Elite slot on those isn't a terrible idea.
I know I'm just using the regular Ven Dreads with my Aegis + Relic Blade Captain (I know, even *I* want to bust out specific models from time to time. *ME*), but being able to commit to, well, no babysitters isn't a bad idea. If only competitive games were played at larger point levels...
The Mortis variants are Heavy Support and not Relics. There is a Relic Contemptor that's Elite that mix and matches weaponry a bit, but the qual-las versions are not Relics.
The Mortis variants are Heavy Support and not Relics. There is a Relic Contemptor that's Elite that mix and matches weaponry a bit, but the qual-las versions are not Relics.
The Relic Contemptor is an interesting unit. 2+ base save with a few extra wounds and an additional 6+++ for not that much more than a C. Mortis. It can do the QuadLas job, but has access to some other more exotic toys (personal favorite is the C-Beamer for sheer hilarity).
Sterling191 wrote: If you want pure unvarnished AT, go with QuadLas Contemptor Mortis dreads. Innate 2+ BS, a 5++ and the capacity to synergize with the rest of your Deathwatch goodies is bloody fantastic for cheaper than an Armiger.
Those aren't considered Relic units are they? If not, using the Elite slot on those isn't a terrible idea.
I know I'm just using the regular Ven Dreads with my Aegis + Relic Blade Captain (I know, even *I* want to bust out specific models from time to time. *ME*), but being able to commit to, well, no babysitters isn't a bad idea. If only competitive games were played at larger point levels...
Nope, the Mortis and C. Mortis are not considered Relics, and they're Heavy Support so can be used to pay the Leviathan relic tax. Remember, the quadlas C Mortis is only ~25 points more than the TL/ML Ven. You're looking at about a 65-70 point differential when you factor in not having to take the Aegis.
Off memory I don't think the Mortis has the 6+++ do they? I haven't played in a couple of months so I'm rusty on certain rules!
So with the degrading profile too, they'd also be perfect candidates for a babysitting Watch Master at least.
Off memory I don't think the Mortis has the 6+++ do they? I haven't played in a couple of months so I'm rusty on certain rules!
So with the degrading profile too, they'd also be perfect candidates for a babysitting Watch Master at least.
No 6+++ on the Contemptor Mortis. The Relic Contemptor has it though. The naming is confusing for sure.
At least you understand my confusion, as I keep mixing the Contemptor variants up.
Actually that brings me to the variant that hasn't really been discussed here is the Relic one. Compared to the codex option, we get several more range options, but I'm thinking more about melee on these dudes. I know in the beginning of this edition I was having mediocre success using two with TL Heavy Bolters and a Chainfist. The main attraction to them, for me at least, is that the degrading profile doesn't affect movement. So even if in a shooting phase your opponent knocked it to 3 wounds...it can still move at full capacity and charge.
Deathwatch are of course not really a melee army, but for those of us making use of Bike + Vanguard squads they could make for a good element of target saturation: what do you go after, right?
Still, 75 points for 12 SIA shots out to 24/30 inches at all times is nothing to sneeze at.
This is what I was thinking. Maybe 5 bikes, give em bolt pistols, and the serg a storm bolter. Super mobile, keeping them at that 24-30" range. They get like 24 SIA shots at 24-30" and 28 shots of you want to bring them within 12" all for like 129 points.
Still, 75 points for 12 SIA shots out to 24/30 inches at all times is nothing to sneeze at.
This is what I was thinking. Maybe 5 bikes, give em bolt pistols, and the serg a storm bolter. Super mobile, keeping them at that 24-30" range. They get like 24 SIA shots at 24-30" and 28 shots of you want to bring them within 12" all for like 129 points.
Still, 75 points for 12 SIA shots out to 24/30 inches at all times is nothing to sneeze at.
This is what I was thinking. Maybe 5 bikes, give em bolt pistols, and the serg a storm bolter. Super mobile, keeping them at that 24-30" range. They get like 24 SIA shots at 24-30" and 28 shots of you want to bring them within 12" all for like 129 points.
How 28 shots at 12"?
24 shots from the bolter's on the bikes and the sargs storm bolter and another 4 from bolt pistols if you're within 12". That correct or do I have something wrong? Either way, it seems like 24 SIA shots at 24-30" is really good
Can't shoot pistols and other weapons in the same phase. It's either/or. Same with grenades. So 24 shots, and yes it's still good.
A good cheap unit is 3 bikes, sarg has storm shield and storm Bolter, Homer bike and vanilla bike have chainswords. 81 points. For mono-codex they are great screen units that don't die easy and put out decent firepower.
Having the extra homing beacons is nice too, often means I have like 5-6 beacons in my backfield to pull back vet squads if needed.
Anyone tried a refused flank tactic using homing beacons? Deploy evenly across your deployment zone, then teleport half your squads over to the opposite side turn 1 to overload one half of the board?
they can take a storm shield, but they cant take the SB and the SS at the same time unless they are veterans on a bike which DW happen to be along with command squads. Regular marine bikers only get 1 weapon/gear choice.
Anyone tried a refused flank tactic using homing beacons? Deploy evenly across your deployment zone, then teleport half your squads over to the opposite side turn 1 to overload one half of the board?
It's a tactical approach I use pretty regularly against death star lists, especially slower death stars, albeit relying more on fast baseline movement than porting squads, but it's an asset to not take lightly.
Any scenario wherein you can bring the bulk of your force against a component of your opponent's, while at the same time denying the rest of their force the opportunity to engage your units gives you a sizeable advantage. We tend to play with a lot of terrain at my LGS, so fast units can shoot n scoot with possibly more success than at other tables so YMMV.
With the Beta Bolter rule Bikes are even more interesting. Instead of having one in my squads I now have two. I will try them tomorrow since my last game was a month ago. Will also have for first time in 8th my LR Crusader with Chronus in my Ultramarines Battalion just for use it one time.
Alex_85 wrote: With the Beta Bolter rule Bikes are even more interesting. Instead of having one in my squads I now have two. I will try them tomorrow since my last game was a month ago. Will also have for first time in 8th my LR Crusader with Chronus in my Ultramarines Battalion just for use it one time.
But Bikers are now a must have.
Keep in mind, Bikes and Terminators in Veteran squads do not benefit from the Beta Bolter rules while on the move.
Alex_85 wrote: With the Beta Bolter rule Bikes are even more interesting. Instead of having one in my squads I now have two. I will try them tomorrow since my last game was a month ago. Will also have for first time in 8th my LR Crusader with Chronus in my Ultramarines Battalion just for use it one time.
But Bikers are now a must have.
Keep in mind, Bikes and Terminators in Veteran squads do not benefit from the Beta Bolter rules while on the move.
Oh no, thats true. Damn I was too excited. That's not nice. Have to rethink my list. I will probably then just leave the teleport horner biker and use those 25 points for something else.
Thanks for the advice, I would be cheating if you didn't say it.
Quick question: Can a FW Chaplain Venerable Dreadnought (HQ) get a warlord trait? It does get the Deathwatch keyword, so I think it won't be an issue to make him a warlord? And if so, do you think Bane of Monstrosities would be a proper choice?
bobafett012 wrote: How are people modeling all these SBs on their Deathwatch if they aren't on the sprue? What SBs is everyone using?
Another question about vets squads, is it worth taking any of the non vets for the bonuses like the vanguard to get the fallback and shoot or a biker to fall back and charge etc? Seems like adding in Terminator with SB/SS wound be a good investment just to soak hits and put out 4 extra shots a turn.
I had a spare 25 or so mono pose terminators from assault on black reach that I acquired in trade and just lopped em off of them since they were just collecting dust. Well, all but the Sergeants with power swords, as they would be joining my new vets. For storm shields I had a bunch of spare bits of these angel insignias that are meant to dress up rhinos for dark Angel's or something.
What have you all been doing to deal with smite spam? I played my brothers Tzeentch and Tsons army the other day and he has dropping 15 smites/ smite like spells a turn on me. My shooting was really hurt him the first two rds but then I had taken so many casualties by turn three I was then ineffective. He took 2 tzeentch lord of change, Fateweaver, 3 x 10 pink horrors, 2x10 rubric , and Ahriman. I was thinking of adding 4 squads of Sisters of silence for -1s to his casting, total of -4. Would be at least 200 pt though. Any thoughts?
You need to take three then. They are actually not hard to kill with only a T4 5W despite only being hit on 6s. Three would be sufficient.
The character rule on Culexus is wasted if you go against TSons. Due to that many 24" psychic powers, so you need to put the Culexus forwards, and being prone to shoot / chop to death against thousands of attacks throw out from the TSons.
Sterling191 wrote: Sisters of Battle. With the Brazier Relic they have an absolutely hellacious Deny capacity.
+1
Roughly 240 pts gets you 5 Deny attempts, and access to a strat that is a deny on a 4+.
Assassins are another option, with the new rules/strats that are coming out it gives you more to work with. The Culexus isn't very different from before but still very useful.
Also, adding bikes to your vet squads make for some spaces to put those MWs for less points per wound (12.5 ppw for a bike vs. 20 ppw for SS/SB vets).
Having a good screening force is also pretty crucial to soak up those MWs, don't expose them turn 1, move them out to screen out Smites turn 2 and 3, all the while your Deathwatch are taking a toll on his army.
You need to take three then. They are actually not hard to kill with only a T4 5W despite only being hit on 6s. Three would be sufficient.
The character rule on Culexus is wasted if you go against TSons. Due to that many 24" psychic powers, so you need to put the Culexus forwards, and being prone to shoot / chop to death against thousands of attacks throw out from the TSons.
Not hard to kill? Wanna run the math on that real quick?
You need to take three then. They are actually not hard to kill with only a T4 5W despite only being hit on 6s. Three would be sufficient.
The character rule on Culexus is wasted if you go against TSons. Due to that many 24" psychic powers, so you need to put the Culexus forwards, and being prone to shoot / chop to death against thousands of attacks throw out from the TSons.
Not hard to kill? Wanna run the math on that real quick?
5 Wounds
10 D1 wounds needed to be dealt due to a 4+ Invuln
20 S4 hits are needed due to T4
120 Shots, since he's hit on 6s.
You need to take three then. They are actually not hard to kill with only a T4 5W despite only being hit on 6s. Three would be sufficient.
The character rule on Culexus is wasted if you go against TSons. Due to that many 24" psychic powers, so you need to put the Culexus forwards, and being prone to shoot / chop to death against thousands of attacks throw out from the TSons.
Not hard to kill? Wanna run the math on that real quick?
Tzaangors, rerolls all to hits against characters (which Culexus is), 4s to wound need to go through that 4++ means every 4 successful to hit would likely result in a losing wound. Math yields that without any kind of buff
the 30 strong Tzaangors would have 48.5% chances to deal 5W on Culexus. From the Culexus side when assessing his durability with a conservative approach, you should assume that he is dead with this probability, as you need to prepare that dice rolling would be against you.
When you count in the special rule Death of False Emperor, Prescience, Veteran of the Long War, etc., it can safely assume that the Culexus is dead.
Due to the above, I conclude that taking one of them is not enough to deal with TSons, you need to take 3 of tthem.
Guys can I ask a rule question please on a match I played last week. I was playing against Space Wolves. My Vanguard Veterans charged a Redemptor dreadnought. Bjorn then heroically intervened. The VV utterly destroy the Redemptor. They survive the attacks by Bjorn and consolidated around Bjorn. I then wanted to burn 3CP to fight again and attack Bjorn because it was the end of the fight phase but my opponent said I couldnt do that because I didn't declare Bjorn as part of my charge? Was he correct?
Elfric wrote: Guys can I ask a rule question please on a match I played last week. I was playing against Space Wolves. My Vanguard Veterans charged a Redemptor dreadnought. Bjorn then heroically intervened. The VV utterly destroy the Redemptor. They survive the attacks by Bjorn and consolidated around Bjorn. I then wanted to burn 3CP to fight again and attack Bjorn because it was the end of the fight phase but my opponent said I couldnt do that because I didn't declare Bjorn as part of my charge? Was he correct?
Elfric wrote: Guys can I ask a rule question please on a match I played last week. I was playing against Space Wolves. My Vanguard Veterans charged a Redemptor dreadnought. Bjorn then heroically intervened. The VV utterly destroy the Redemptor. They survive the attacks by Bjorn and consolidated around Bjorn. I then wanted to burn 3CP to fight again and attack Bjorn because it was the end of the fight phase but my opponent said I couldnt do that because I didn't declare Bjorn as part of my charge? Was he correct?
He was correct.
Slight amendment: You CAN use the stratagem to Fight Again, but you can't target Bjorn, since he was not a charge target.
repulsors are fine if you go dakka setup and have guilliman for rerolls. For deathwatch you always take dreads instead. Relic Leviathans and/or contemptors will do you better.
Rogerio134134 wrote: Anyone take a repulsor? Got a game this week 2k and I'm going to take one and see how it goes. Can pump out crazy firepower for 290 pts you get..
2 lascannon shots
18 strength 5 ap -1 shots from the 2 onslaught Gatling's
12 storm bolter shots
Krakstorm launcher and heavy stunner
I'm thinking of chucking my aggressors in there or some hellblasters and casting might of heroes on the tank to get it up to t9 and pop smoke turn 1.
The MOH and smoke will be great for keeping it alive turn 1. Having the watch master near by would allow rerolls on all failed hits. If you choose the right targets for each weapon then you don't need the reroll wounds that gulliman brings. I'd take a mixed squad of agressors and intercessors if possible. That way if the repulsor does die before you deliver your payload any 1s can be allocated to the intercessors as casualties. Try it out and let us know how it goes. I have a repulsor but haven't used it yet. I play mostly 1250 pt games and like lots of infantry.
Roughly 240 pts gets you 5 Deny attempts, and access to a strat that is a deny on a 4+.
Assassins are another option, with the new rules/strats that are coming out it gives you more to work with. The Culexus isn't very different from before but still very useful.
Also, adding bikes to your vet squads make for some spaces to put those MWs for less points per wound (12.5 ppw for a bike vs. 20 ppw for SS/SB vets).
Having a good screening force is also pretty crucial to soak up those MWs, don't expose them turn 1, move them out to screen out Smites turn 2 and 3, all the while your Deathwatch are taking a toll on his army.
I've only run it once so far, but the "Three Sisters" Supreme Command squad of triple Canonesses worked brilliantly for a little over half of that price point. Cover hug to keep em out of LoS for Deny coverage, then send em in as supporting mini-beatsticks / shooters (2+ with their own baked in reroll aura is spicy) where necessary. Bonus points if you run em as the +1 AoF Order so they can self-heal more efficiently.
Hi guys. I am thinking of get one Corvus for my Deatwatch. Is it worth it in a 1750 army? I usualy use my Ultramarines for having a second Battalion an I have 12 or 13 Cp, so maybe it is better for just deep strike my Veterans instead and maybe got a Relic Leviathan instead. I know it is tottaly different play stile but... what do you think?
I understand what people are saying about taking not than 1 target. In my list are 2 venerable dreads with tl and ml plus a redemptor and a repulsor so there are a few big things.
It's a vigilus game anyways so I'll give it a try as I love the model.
Because if you want the BIKER tag to get permanent rapid fire you need to take them outside of a Veteran squad, which necessitates a non Troop slot and the loss of ObSec.
I still think Bikes are good in Vet units, even if they don't get the BIKER keyword to make the most out of Bolter Discipline. Particularly if you are putting any melee in the unit (and with 3atk Sgts and Black Shields, you should be IMO, at least for a unit or 2) That 14" Move, plus a VV or 2 to string the coherency along can make for a guaranteed Turn 2 assault, maybe even a Turn 1 assault if you are lucky.
Even if you aren't gearing towards melee as a way to kill units, getting close by assaulting and forcing that enemy unit to have to fall back if they wish to shoot your unit is a useful tactic. And the Bike in the unit allows you to fall back and charge again if you get into trouble. Since DW are an "in your face" army, these are all valuable tricks.
Galef wrote: I still think Bikes are good in Vet units, even if they don't get the BIKER keyword to make the most out of Bolter Discipline.
I dont disagree (you've seen me sing the gospel of combat squads before). It's just an edge case involving the new rule that not everyone is aware of.
Of course. I was just adding that due to this new rule, it should not be forgotten the value of Bikes in Vet units while weighing the value of "true" BIKER units on their own. Both are good and have different uses
Talking about anti tank since the heavy support is so light in codex, I know some have mentioned dreads being our best anti-tank, but has anyone tried running like 3 armiger warglaives?
bobafett012 wrote: Talking about anti tank since the heavy support is so light in codex, I know some have mentioned dreads being our best anti-tank, but has anyone tried running like 3 armiger warglaives?
But there you are going out of the codex. They are lots of AT options and those are excellent ones. In DW there are few options. But now Dreadnoughts are cheaper. I would like to have Devastators in the DW codex.
bobafett012 wrote: Talking about anti tank since the heavy support is so light in codex, I know some have mentioned dreads being our best anti-tank, but has anyone tried running like 3 armiger warglaives?
Armigers in general are solid units, and frankly they're some of my favorite Knights to see on either side of the table. Warglaives are pretty solid for hunting medium armor like Chimeras or Hellhounds, but they'll struggle against Russ equivalents and anything with an invuln (S8 weaponry only goes so far).
Keep in mind that the QuadLas Contemptor Mortis is now cheaper than either Armiger variant, while having better output (via better ballistic skill and access to significant synergy within the Deathwatch ruleset). Or if you're looking for a Helverin alternative, the QuadAutocannon +/- a CML is pointswise very close.
But there you are going out of the codex. They are lots of AT options and those are excellent ones. In DW there are few options. But now Dreadnoughts are cheaper. I would like to have Devastators in the DW codex.
Vets can already pull Dev-lite duty via their capacity to add up to four heavy weapons to a team. Their only flaws are an inability to take Lascannons or Plasma Cannons, and no cherub.
What are the 2 most commonly used powers for a DW Librarian?
Both in general and if a specific purpose is desired.
My list, for example, has 2 Smash Captains, one with the Beacon as well as a few melee Vet units. So Might of Heros seems an obvious choice, as does Veil of Time. Any experience with other powers?
Hi DW brothers. I am thinking on expand my DW army. I had a couple of battles where I used an Ultramarines batalion as support and extra AT ( and the cheap scouts), but they didn't performed in the new CA18 missions, the same problem likes always, to few units. I had nothing to screen and control objetvies.
i wanted to stay purely Astartes but this year I would like to go to some small Tournaments. I was thinking of course in Astra. Cheap infantry, Company Commander and a Tank Commander. My question is about the main weapon of the Leman, I was thinking between the Batlle Cannon and the Punisher. What would be better for my DW army?
Had a game tonight 2k against mono chaos, mission was part of a vigilus campaign and had special rules, for this one everything could only fire 12 inches until turn 2 which was amazing for me. Drove my repulsor in close and absolutely cleaned up a squad of daemons and squad of CSM. My deepstrike time came in behind him with a 9 man storm bolter squad and a squad of intercessors/aggressors and annihilated all his infantry. Smash captain took down a land raider and then it was game over. The strat which gains +1 to wound against heavy support is so good if used on storm bolters or intercessors.
Rogerio134134 wrote: Had a game tonight 2k against mono chaos, mission was part of a vigilus campaign and had special rules, for this one everything could only fire 12 inches until turn 2 which was amazing for me. Drove my repulsor in close and absolutely cleaned up a squad of daemons and squad of CSM. My deepstrike time came in behind him with a 9 man storm bolter squad and a squad of intercessors/aggressors and annihilated all his infantry. Smash captain took down a land raider and then it was game over. The strat which gains +1 to wound against heavy support is so good if used on storm bolters or intercessors.
Nice to read this. Seems a nice mission. I am still not on the half of the CA18 mission, but once we finish them I will pass to Vigilus.
I'd take battlecannons unless you're playing serious hordes. I mean, that's the point, to shore up DW's somewhat lighter AT ability. And really, the Battlecannon can punch down on light targets if you need to, the Punisher is not as good at punching up.
As far as Regiment...Cadia is good, especially if you're mostly planing on keeping the Russes in one place.
But if you plan on moving around and have sponson guns then I think Tallarn.
And maybe upgrade to an Emperor's Fist detachment for the Hammer of Sunderance on one of them. The extra warlord trait is pretty good too.
Galef wrote: What are the 2 most commonly used powers for a DW Librarian?
Both in general and if a specific purpose is desired.
My list, for example, has 2 Smash Captains, one with the Beacon as well as a few melee Vet units.
So Might of Heros seems an obvious choice, as does Veil of Time. Any experience with other powers?
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The two you listed, or Null zone if the Libby has a jump pack. Other than that the DW powers are pretty lackluster.
The two you listed, or Null zone if the Libby has a jump pack. Other than that the DW powers are pretty lackluster.
I thought about Null Zone, but the fact that you have to be so close to the "target" makes it seem like a difficult power to effectively use without suiciding the Libbie
Also as primarily an Eldar player for the last decade, I've become accustom to either easier to cast powers with some kind of bonus, or consistently disappointed by WC7 powers failing with no kind of bonus (Warlocks/Spiritseers). So a WC8 power with no bonus just does not seem good to me at all.
So it looks like Might of Heroes & Veil of Time are it. Thanx
Psychic Powers for Astartes are really lackluster. Might of Heroes & Veil of Time are pretty much the only worthwhile ones, although Null Zone can sometimes be useful in niche situations (but its low range and chance to cast make it unreliable). DW should have been given access to the other chapter powers as well to give them more to work with, considering they can have librarians from those other chapters.
You need to take three then. They are actually not hard to kill with only a T4 5W despite only being hit on 6s. Three would be sufficient.
The character rule on Culexus is wasted if you go against TSons. Due to that many 24" psychic powers, so you need to put the Culexus forwards, and being prone to shoot / chop to death against thousands of attacks throw out from the TSons.
Not hard to kill? Wanna run the math on that real quick?
5 Wounds
10 D1 wounds needed to be dealt due to a 4+ Invuln
20 S4 hits are needed due to T4
120 Shots, since he's hit on 6s.
Pretty damn durable.
More importantly, if he's been shot to death, he's already helped you against one psychic phase. It's not a perfect defense, but with a bit of experience it can definitely buy you time to help blunt the psyker assault.
The way how ts kill culexus though is by charging a bunch of tzaangors into him, who are very good dishing damage to characters in general.
Not that they want to kill the guy, he is way more useful as a hostage and free movement enabler for them to spread out across the board safe from shooting. That is what the cultist blob wants to do too.
Postulent wrote: The way how ts kill culexus though is by charging a bunch of tzaangors into him, who are very good dishing damage to characters in general.
Not that they want to kill the guy, he is way more useful as a hostage and free movement enabler for them to spread out across the board safe from shooting. That is what the cultist blob wants to do too.
Tzaangors are one of the best Culexus hunters, true. But there's a whole lot of armies that don't have them.
What are some tactics or configurations that work to kill Knights for Death Watch?
Im thinking of adding in Dark Angels and Space wolves - to double stack -1 to modifiers on the castellan or crusader and then using smite spam, clavis, tempest shells, and storm bolters wounding on 5's rerolling ones to wound. I still dont think its enough.
kaiservonhugal wrote: What are some tactics or configurations that work to kill Knights for Death Watch?
Im thinking of adding in Dark Angels and Space wolves - to double stack -1 to modifiers on the castellan or crusader and then using smite spam, clavis, tempest shells, and storm bolters wounding on 5's rerolling ones to wound. I still dont think its enough.
Smash caps, Combi-plasma squads, Dakka with +1 to wound rerolling 1s, tempest and hellfire shells, osseus key. Forgeworld Dreads (I'm not into dreads right now though). Also a Vindicare can throw out some MWs now with turbopen rounds.
Have you tried not worrying about the Knight? Kill off all their infantry in the first two turns while sending random tempest and hellfire shells to plink a few wounds off the Knight. Then the rest of the game focus on winning the mission while chipping wounds off the knight. If you're packing enough storm shields you can mitigate a lot of the damage a knight can do and they won't really be able to have the damage output they are used to.
I'm finding that people get so caught up in the fact that there is a knight on the table that they forget how to play the game. So you spend 2 or 3 turns trying to kill the Knight, all the while his infantry and support are scoring VPs. Instead focus on eliminating his ability to win the mission, and even if he has a full Castellan on the board by the 4th turn, there will be no way he can catch you on VPs. You might not get a crushing victory, but a minor win is still a good thing.
Deathwatch are perfectly situated to kill all the support a Knight may have, and do it quickly. So play to your strengths rather than let your opponent dictate how you are going to play.
Likes Creeping said, play the mission. Strike around the map where you more can hurt and score. Don't get frustrated trying to destroy that knight. Think about the Bacon Angelis and a teleport horner for extra movement options.
So I am kinda thinking that the WL trait Lord of Hidden Knowledge might actually be a better trait than Vigilance Incarnate. For a Watch Master, obviously.
The reason I am think this is because Vigilance Incarnate has a one time only use. And since you could use the Adaptive tactics stratagem to the same thing, all it really does is save 1CP.
Lord of Hidden Knowledge, otoh, gives you a once per game re-roll (thereby saving a CP on a Commande re-roll) AND could regain CPs on 5+ I really don't see the point in Vigilance Incarnate over taking Lord of Hidden Knowledge + Adaptive Tactics. The later should end up giving you at minimum 1 more CP in the long run and potentially many more.
Galef wrote: So I am kinda thinking that the WL trait Lord of Hidden Knowledge might actually be a better Trait than Vigilance Incarnate. For a Watch Master, obviously.
The reason I am think this is because Vigilance Incarnate has a one time only use. And since you could use the Adaptive tactics stratagem to the same thing, all it really does is save 1CP.
Lord of Hidden Knowledge, otoh, gives you a once per game re-roll (thereby saving a CP on a Commande re-roll) AND could regain CPs on 5+
I really don't see the point in Vigilance Incarnate over taking Lord of Hidden Knowledge + Adaptive Tactics. The later should end up giving you at minimum 1 more CP in the long run and potentially many more.
Thoughts?
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Yeah Vigilance is an absolute awful warlord trait and always has been.
I have not had luck with the lord of hidden knowledge. Used it twice and never rolled a single 5+. I usually use castellan of the black vault to make my watch master hit and shoot harder. I use mine closely with kill teams so he frequently sees combat.
kaiservonhugal wrote: What are some tactics or configurations that work to kill Knights for Death Watch?
Im thinking of adding in Dark Angels and Space wolves - to double stack -1 to modifiers on the castellan or crusader and then using smite spam, clavis, tempest shells, and storm bolters wounding on 5's rerolling ones to wound. I still dont think its enough.
Smash caps, Combi-plasma squads, Dakka with +1 to wound rerolling 1s, tempest and hellfire shells, osseus key. Forgeworld Dreads (I'm not into dreads right now though). Also a Vindicare can throw out some MWs now with turbopen rounds.
Have you tried not worrying about the Knight? Kill off all their infantry in the first two turns while sending random tempest and hellfire shells to plink a few wounds off the Knight. Then the rest of the game focus on winning the mission while chipping wounds off the knight. If you're packing enough storm shields you can mitigate a lot of the damage a knight can do and they won't really be able to have the damage output they are used to.
I'm finding that people get so caught up in the fact that there is a knight on the table that they forget how to play the game. So you spend 2 or 3 turns trying to kill the Knight, all the while his infantry and support are scoring VPs. Instead focus on eliminating his ability to win the mission, and even if he has a full Castellan on the board by the 4th turn, there will be no way he can catch you on VPs. You might not get a crushing victory, but a minor win is still a good thing.
Deathwatch are perfectly situated to kill all the support a Knight may have, and do it quickly. So play to your strengths rather than let your opponent dictate how you are going to play.
That is good point to tale. But in my situation, I usually get tabled by the Knights within 3 to 4 battle rounds, by when maybe I just barely managed to kill all the IGs.
I'm planning a list that I hope will be competitive - I'm not going to LVO or anything (ever), but I like to be able to stand up to the people in my area that run the good things. What do you generals think about the following list?
Deathwatch Battallion
Watch Master
Librarian with JP 3x 10 Veterans - Each with a Sergeant, Black Shield, VanVet, and Terminator, everything with Storm Bolters, 2-3 Vets with a Storm Shield
2x Quad Mortar/HB Rapiers NOT Heavy Bolter Tarantulas as I originally said
2x Leviathan Dreadnoughts with Grav
Black Templar Batallion
2x Captains with TH, SH, and JP 3x Scout Squads
I chose Grav for the Leviathans with the idea that I would deep strike them in after clearing chaff, and get to the yummy nougaty center of whatever Knight or Tank my opponent has. I could also run the Levis in the BT batallion with claws/drills and, after clearing chaff, deep strike in and get rerolls to charge (though in my experience even the reroll doesn't get them in often enough). The smash captains are backup AT or whatever. I chose Black Templars over Blood Angels because the BA strats for the Smash Captain are CP intensive, and because the BT strat 'Abhor the Witch' is a pretty handy deny and not as big of a CP drain. Sure, I have 13 CP, but they don't really last very long.
I did mean the Quad Rapier, oops. Thanks for saying something, I was about to order Tarantulas Are the rapiers about the same in terms of points, compared to tarantulas? The points on this list will be tight. I haven't gotten Imperial Armor yet, ordering it with my dreads and rapiers.
I’m at work and can’t check, but I want to say the tarantula is 37 and the quad rapier is 85ish?
Edit: err, just realized I’m conflating the laser destroyer and the quad mortar. Either way pretty sure you need like 80-100 more pts for the 2.
Thanks! I will make sure to order the right thing... In the mean time, I appreciate any feedback anyone has on this prospective list. Levis are expensive, I want to make sure I'm planning things well
Aleister_Dakka wrote: I'm planning a list that I hope will be competitive - I'm not going to LVO or anything (ever), but I like to be able to stand up to the people in my area that run the good things. What do you generals think about the following list?
Deathwatch Battallion
Watch Master
Librarian with JP 3x 10 Veterans - Each with a Sergeant, Black Shield, VanVet, and Terminator, everything with Storm Bolters, 2-3 Vets with a Storm Shield
2x Quad Mortar/HB Rapiers NOT Heavy Bolter Tarantulas as I originally said
2x Leviathan Dreadnoughts with Grav
Black Templar Batallion
2x Captains with TH, SH, and JP 3x Scout Squads
I chose Grav for the Leviathans with the idea that I would deep strike them in after clearing chaff, and get to the yummy nougaty center of whatever Knight or Tank my opponent has. I could also run the Levis in the BT batallion with claws/drills and, after clearing chaff, deep strike in and get rerolls to charge (though in my experience even the reroll doesn't get them in often enough). The smash captains are backup AT or whatever. I chose Black Templars over Blood Angels because the BA strats for the Smash Captain are CP intensive, and because the BT strat 'Abhor the Witch' is a pretty handy deny and not as big of a CP drain. Sure, I have 13 CP, but they don't really last very long.
Switch the grav on the leviathans to storm cannons. Way more useful against a wider array of targets, longer range, more consistent, and you can wound T8 on 4's with the +1 to wound strat with 20 shots so you're not even giving up much in terms of anti vehicle.
Thanks! I got home and added up the cost in points, counting Rapiers as 85 points each (other sources online are pointing to that number too, my books are in the mail). With the Levis, choosing storm over grav frees up 50 points each. With that, I'm still over by 35 pts with the BT Batallion, so instead I'm going to go with a Sisters detachment of 2x Canonness and 3x Battle Sister Squads as Order of the Ebon Veil with the Brazier relic.. This gives me 7 denies per turn between my Librarian, Sisters, and their DTW strategem, instead of 1 deny and 2x Smash Captains. Seems like a decent trade. This puts me at only 1863 points so I'm working out what to add. I've considered making the Vets squads into Intercessor mixed squads, but I think I like the SB/SS builds. If anyone has any other ideas for the last 137 points, or any other constructive criticism, that would be great.
Batallions only have 3 heavy slots so no 2x levis and 2x support.
You gotta add a heavy detachment, meaning another bad DWHQ choice (I really wish we got tech marines) but there's your 137 points (over-priced DW smash captain)
The sisters aren't filling any holes in your army (more bolter shots). Scouts are really good troops and BT smash bros aren't terrible
I'd drop a termie and a couple storm shields from one of your vet squads and keep the BT slam caps.
I feel like the Sisters Batallion helps against Smite spam (adds 6 denies to the army) and also key powers vs. armies like Eldar and GSC while giving me more Obsec.
Good call on the detachment limits, thanks for the oversight! I will go with a DW Smash Captain.
Regarding Relic units, does the 'tax' unit have to be in the same detachment as the Relic? That would make things a little hairy.
If you are already taking some Terminators with SB/fist in your Vet units, is there any reason not to also take the Meltagun? Aside from points.
I have 2 units in particular that are designed to be up close and personal. Each unit look like this: 3 SB/SS Vets, 1 TH/SB Sgt, 1 TH/SB Black Shield 1 Bike, 2 Axe/SS Vanguard Vets, 1 SB/Powerfist Terminator
The plan is to use the movement of the Bike & VVs to slingshot the unit forward into melee, then fallback, shoot and assault again. Seems like having a Melta in each unit might come in handy Thoughts?
My plan for the Terminators is just for them to use their 2+ and 2W to tank small arms fire, the Morale protection is a decent bonus too. If I have the points I could maybe see a melta on them, but in my experience that 12" doesn't reliably get me to the targets I want to hit anyway so I would only do it if I didn't need points for anything else. I see Vets as primarily a chaff-clearing unit that sometimes Heroically Intervenes in for some free whacks before it falls back to do it again.
Concerning the use of Vets as an assault unit... My background is as a Black Templars player, and I was very unimpressed by the minimal impact of going the assault route with Space Marine equivalent bodies. VS Tau or Eldar gunlines, it's decent if you can get in and survive overwatch, but not remarkable; otherwise it can be suicide against a lot of screens. I am experimenting with a Vet squad that is squadded into 5 Vets with 2 HB/ 2ML for the backfield and 3x Bikes with 2x VVs for Objectives and chaff clearing and I like it a lot - but charging the bikes/vvs into combat hasn't been the greatest and gets them killed sometimes,I like the shooting much more. The issue wit using Bikes/VVs to 'slingshot' is that your other units can't keep up and you have to maintain coherency.
Aleister_Dakka wrote: I am experimenting with a Vet squad that is squadded into 5 Vets with 2 HB/ 2ML for the backfield and 3x Bikes with 2x VVs for Objectives and chaff clearing and I like it a lot - but charging the bikes/vvs into combat hasn't been the greatest and gets them killed sometimes,I like the shooting much more.
This is one of my two default Vet configurations (with MLs). SIA plus the beta bolter rule allows the SBs to punch out to 30 inches with four shots apiece, while the MLs do their work across the whole board, and in the meantime the Bike/VV work as general skirmish units that can fulfill multiple roles. Punch through a screen, tie up armor, nab an objective, you name it. Use terrain and their mobility to your advantage and they will win you matches.
Remember to put SS on the VanVets and the end result is a T5 3++ squad that can go to a 2+ standard save if it can get cover (since they dont have the BIKER keyword they can technically make full use of terrain cover by the yby).
Smash caps, Combi-plasma squads, Dakka with +1 to wound rerolling 1s, tempest and hellfire shells, osseus key. Forgeworld Dreads (I'm not into dreads right now though). Also a Vindicare can throw out some MWs now with turbopen rounds.
Am I missing something? I've seen a couple of you guys mention +1 to wound strat and rerolling 1's against Knights, but I'm not seeing a strategem or tactic for Lords of War.
Smash caps, Combi-plasma squads, Dakka with +1 to wound rerolling 1s, tempest and hellfire shells, osseus key. Forgeworld Dreads (I'm not into dreads right now though). Also a Vindicare can throw out some MWs now with turbopen rounds.
Am I missing something? I've seen a couple of you guys mention +1 to wound strat and rerolling 1's against Knights, but I'm not seeing a strategem or tactic for Lords of War.
You're looking for the Malleus Doctrine, page 97, 1st column, 4th strategem and the Malleus mission tactic, pg 94. Both affect Heavy Support and Lords of War units.
That explains it, didn't realize that one was doing double duty. Guess I skimmed too fast when I saw the heavy support and I was looking for a separate one. Thank you sir!
Does anyone have good experience with DW Bikers? (Want to get opinions before buying them)
On paper they look pretty good. For 5 points more than SS/SB veterans you get same amount of SIA shots, have 1 more attack if you pick chainswords, 5thougness, 1more W and Significantly higher movement.
Does the mixed units and 3++ really worth it more in anyones testing?
combatcotton wrote: Bikes alone in DW are a stupid choice if you can combat squad them out of a troop choice while combining them with vanguard veterans who can take SS.
I wholeheartedly disagree. Both are good choices.
For 81pts you get 6 T5 wounds, 16 SIA shots (even at full range even when moving), a storm shield, and a teleport homer. They make a great screen that takes dedicated shooting to get rid of, can have a very long footprint, and are fast enough to really inhibit enemy movement. And sure they aren't troops, but they can still get to objectives and table quarters to score.
I rank them as the second best unit in the codex (characters aside) since chapter approved and the Beta Bolter rule came out, only behind Veterans in effectiveness.
The only one I'd be tempted by is the Supressors to get some heavy shots, but I'm guessing they're going to end up costing too much and leave vets with frag cannons just as good.
This new line could give us new options. More for those who want pure Primaris. But also for Veterans. It al depends on their cost. Also as commented before, the new Libby could give a new push, this is the part I am expecting more.
If all they do is work the same, but cost a bit more for SIA, that'd be okay (assuming the base unit is costed okay). As a squad addon or base to add other Primaris to would be a lot more interesting, if probably too strong.
Think about if you can take 5 of these guys and then can add 4 aggressors/hellblasters, 1 inceptor and scout deploy into double shot range.
Could be they will add them to Deathwatch next CA or via FAQ. The ability of mix the units in deathwatch is maybe doing it difficult for GW to add them to Deathwatch. Maybe we will not see them here, but I think they are excellent for the Deathwatch lore.
About the new psychic discipline they only works on phobos armour. I saw it on a Spanish podcast site amd don't find it in English. If someone find or have it...
Pics have made it to the main Shadowspear thread, basically the discipline keys off of the new Phobos keyword that Vanguard units get. Means its nigh useless for DW.
Sterling191 wrote: Pics have made it to the main Shadowspear thread, basically the discipline keys off of the new Phobos keyword that Vanguard units get. Means its nigh useless for DW.
The generic use powers aren't too bad, though. One is basically one free CP, which is nice.
Sterling191 wrote: Pics have made it to the main Shadowspear thread, basically the discipline keys off of the new Phobos keyword that Vanguard units get. Means its nigh useless for DW.
The generic use powers aren't too bad, though. One is basically one free CP, which is nice.
I'd argue that the three powers that don't use the Phobos keyword are better than most of the powers we currently have, so that Libby is definitely on my radar.
I'd argue that the three powers that don't use the Phobos keyword are better than most of the powers we currently have, so that Libby is definitely on my radar.
The CP nabber is of interest, but the other two rely far too heavily on unreliable thresholds to function.
I really like the idea of primaris space marines scouts in a DW army. It would fill a lot of gaps. If you could mix them with agressors - that would be so mean.
I'd argue that the three powers that don't use the Phobos keyword are better than most of the powers we currently have, so that Libby is definitely on my radar.
The CP nabber is of interest, but the other two rely far too heavily on unreliable thresholds to function.
Well one helps guarantee a charge (tying up a shooting unit is good for a unit that infiltrates) and honestly halving the movement of something not flying is pretty valuable. The mortal wound is merely a bonus at that point.
I'd appreciate some advice on my Deathwatch army. I'm working on 2000 points, but I haven't quite gotten there yet.
HQs: Watch Captain, Watch Master
Troops:
1) Veteran Squad: 1 Vet Sergeant w/ Xenophase Blade, 4 x Veteran w/ SB/SS, 2 x VV w/ Heavy TH, 3 Bikes - Will Combat Squad into 5 x Veterans & 2 x VV, 3 x Bikes
2) Veteran Squad: 5 x Veteran w/ SB/SS, 2 x VV w/ Heavy TH, 3 Bikes - Will Combat Squad into 5 x Veterans & 2 x VV, 3 x Bikes
3) Veteran Squad: 1 x Veteran w/ DW Shotgun, 2 x Veteran w/ Frag Cannon, 2 x Veteran w/ Infernus Heavy Bolter, Terminator w/ Power Fist/SB, VV w/ 2 Bolt Pistols, 1 x Bike
4) Veteran Squad: 1 Vet Sergeant w/ Stalker Pattern Boltgun, 4 x Veteran w/ Missile Launcher
Elites
5 x Terminators w/ TH/SS
Heavy Support
1 x Land Raider Crusader
Flyers
1 x Corvus Blackstar
Dedicated Transport
1 x Rhino
OK, so to the tactics...
- Vet Squad 1 & 2 in Combat Squad will foot slog, race across the board (depending on the unit) and just shoot as much as possible with Melee VVs as needed
- Vet Squad 3 will be loaded into the Corvus Blackstar (just enough room) and dropped near some nasty opponent stuff as I can autohit within 8" with most of those weapons
- Vet Squad 4 will either hang back and snipe from across the board with the missile launchers or ride in the Rhino
- Melee Terminators will ride in the Land Raider Crusader
- HQs will probably ride in the Rhino or Land Raider depending on what's riding in them.
I'd be more inclined to not take TH/SS Termies. For the LR Crusader I'd go for a group of Vets with Frags, or even a bunch of Shotguns. I generally go for TH on my Black Shields, they have more attacks and aren't all in one unit so tougher to get rid of.
If you want to stick with your original list, if you drop 7 points you can grab an assassin.
Creeping Dementia wrote: I'd be more inclined to not take TH/SS Termies. For the LR Crusader I'd go for a group of Vets with Frags, or even a bunch of Shotguns. I generally go for TH on my Black Shields, they have more attacks and aren't all in one unit so tougher to get rid of.
If you want to stick with your original list, if you drop 7 points you can grab an assassin.
Creeping Dementia wrote: I'd be more inclined to not take TH/SS Termies. For the LR Crusader I'd go for a group of Vets with Frags, or even a bunch of Shotguns. I generally go for TH on my Black Shields, they have more attacks and aren't all in one unit so tougher to get rid of.
If you want to stick with your original list, if you drop 7 points you can grab an assassin.
Which of the Assassins would you recommend?
SG
Culexus is the most useful for DW, but with the new rules you get to pick on the fly!
Had a game against a slaanesh csm list last night with my Primaris Deathwatch list. Took 3 big mixed kill teams 3 dreads and a repulsor plus a big squad of vets. Tabled the guy after deep striking in a big kill team with 3 aggressors and inceptors mixed into a intercessor unit, used the plus 1 to wound strat and just mowed down everything.
Really happy with the quality of the repulsor and redemptor dread working in tandem, the account of firepower is scary!
Creeping Dementia wrote: I'd be more inclined to not take TH/SS Termies. For the LR Crusader I'd go for a group of Vets with Frags, or even a bunch of Shotguns. I generally go for TH on my Black Shields, they have more attacks and aren't all in one unit so tougher to get rid of.
If you want to stick with your original list, if you drop 7 points you can grab an assassin.
Which of the Assassins would you recommend?
SG
Really depends on what you face regularly. Culexus is good, but against some matchups is pretty useless. Culexus is decent against Strat heavy armies like Orks/Knights etc. Eversor is a generalist, great at taking out backfield units and messing up your opponents scoring. Vindicare is good against character heavy armies like GSC.
Creeping Dementia wrote: I'd be more inclined to not take TH/SS Termies. For the LR Crusader I'd go for a group of Vets with Frags, or even a bunch of Shotguns. I generally go for TH on my Black Shields, they have more attacks and aren't all in one unit so tougher to get rid of.
If you want to stick with your original list, if you drop 7 points you can grab an assassin.
Which of the Assassins would you recommend?
SG
Really depends on what you face regularly. Culexus is good, but against some matchups is pretty useless. Culexus is decent against Strat heavy armies like Orks/Knights etc. Eversor is a generalist, great at taking out backfield units and messing up your opponents scoring.
Vindicare is good against character heavy armies like GSC.
Why people keep saying this? It's simply NOT TRUE. GSC have unquestioning loyalty which is a "drone-like" rule for EVERY SINGLE Character in the army. They are the most resilent army to snipers for that very reason
Unquestioning loyalty is on a 4+ so its not nearly as good, and it only works on the initial shot. The mortal wounds from Headshot cant be passed off. Its not even close to being as good as drones.
Eihnlazer wrote: Unquestioning loyalty is on a 4+ so its not nearly as good, and it only works on the initial shot. The mortal wounds from Headshot cant be passed off. Its not even close to being as good as drones.
False. It works before applying damage to the model (transferring every damage dealt from that shot to a nearby infantry model that always dies from this) and EVEN works on Mortal Wound. Get up to date please
"Each time you fail a saving throw for a <CULT>
CHARACTER model, and each time a <CULT>
CHARACTER model suffers a mortal wound,
before inflicting damage check to see if it is
within 3" of any friendly <CULT> or BROOD
BROTHERS units with this ability. If it is, you
can select one of those units and roll a D6;
on a 4+ you do not inflict any damage on the
character, but one model in the selected unit
(your choice) is slain. Otherwise, the character
suffers damage as normal."
It also feths UP Head Shot if damage was prevented via Unquestioning Loyalty
If you use the stratagem to bring in the assassin you can decide which one to bring each game, as long as you have the models to choose from.
Personally, though, I think the Vindicare is the best one to "plan" to have. Unlike the other Assassins, it doesn't have to get that close, and even if you need Psychic Defence, I still think the Vindi is better at this than the Culexus.
I say this because the Culexus wants to be within 18" of a Psyker to be useful. Many Psykers, at least the ones I use, can just move out of that range to still use the powers that matter. And most Psykers are fairly squishy. The ones that aren't so squishy probably aren't too worried about any Assassin. The Vindi has a much better chance of outright removing a squishy Psyker, maybe even 2 per turn if you are lucky.
Creeping Dementia wrote: I'd be more inclined to not take TH/SS Termies. For the LR Crusader I'd go for a group of Vets with Frags, or even a bunch of Shotguns. I generally go for TH on my Black Shields, they have more attacks and aren't all in one unit so tougher to get rid of.
If you want to stick with your original list, if you drop 7 points you can grab an assassin.
Which of the Assassins would you recommend?
SG
Really depends on what you face regularly. Culexus is good, but against some matchups is pretty useless. Culexus is decent against Strat heavy armies like Orks/Knights etc. Eversor is a generalist, great at taking out backfield units and messing up your opponents scoring. Vindicare is good against character heavy armies like GSC.
Which matchup is he useless in? He always ignores saves and has that defensive boost.
Yeah, If I had to pick just one to have all the time I would probably go with the Vindicare, with the Culexus as a close second. A single Vindicare can whiff and is often better with a little extra sniper support (I have some Skitarii with the Arquebus to do so). The Culexus has the versatility of being a nice distraction unit even if there are no psykers for it to go after due to its difficulty to be hit, and if there are psykers even better!
ikeulhu wrote: Yeah, If I had to pick just one to have all the time I would probably go with the Vindicare, with the Culexus as a close second. A single Vindicare can whiff and is often better with a little extra sniper support (I have some Skitarii with the Arquebus to do so). The Culexus has the versatility of being a nice distraction unit even if there are no psykers for it to go after due to its difficulty to be hit, and if there are psykers even better!
Agreed. But of course, some of this depends on whether DW will be able to take Eliminators.
3 Eliminators will be cheaper than a Vindi, have 3 shots, similar deployment, but most importantly will be able to benefit from DW rules/strats.
ikeulhu wrote: Yeah, If I had to pick just one to have all the time I would probably go with the Vindicare, with the Culexus as a close second. A single Vindicare can whiff and is often better with a little extra sniper support (I have some Skitarii with the Arquebus to do so). The Culexus has the versatility of being a nice distraction unit even if there are no psykers for it to go after due to its difficulty to be hit, and if there are psykers even better!
Agreed. But of course, some of this depends on whether DW will be able to take Eliminators.
3 Eliminators will be cheaper than a Vindi, have 3 shots, similar deployment, but most importantly will be able to benefit from DW rules/strats.
-
Eliminators can not be taken as Deathwatch, GW explicitly forbade it
Are the rapiers about the same in terms of points, compared to tarantulas? The points on this list will be tight. I haven't gotten Imperial Armor yet, ordering it with my dreads and rapiers.
