Rogerio134134 wrote: Have been watching mini guerrilla wargaming on YouTube and he has a lovely Deathwatch army but loses every single game. Does anyone actually take a corvus? They seem pointless to me even though I have one.
I only take mine against friends that use eldar and I bring it with the infernum halo launcher. Makes me -2 to hit by all their flying vehicles. Im actually bringing one tonight against my buddy who uses dark eldar and harlequins.
I'll be taking one to a tournament next week. I love the model, but it's a terrible flyer really. You are paying a lot for the transport capability. The points reduction was not enough if it is not to be fixed rules-wise. Rules wise, it needs to be more accurate and have better missiles.
Corvus's (i think look cool) but on the table top not so much (they are crap).
I plan an army around 3 things.
Castle (or support fire from line,back field objective holders)
Objective grabbers (guys from line can get mid field objectives or/and screen castle)
Support elements (guys that drop in to support whatever need, or for this army major hitters/teleport strat)
You mix your anti-armour and anti-infantry where think appropriate.
If can do all 3, solid army (hard with DW to get a castle and mid objective grabbing units but can do especially with the survivability of a DW marine (ss) over a normal marine and include a termie (2+), if play on that).
GMG army. I have watched Ash a lot and he is a cool guy... but his DW army is not that good (have watched all his DW batreps, everytime am sigh). He runs what he has not what is good i think.
EDIT:
This is how I play. Some will play another style (the mass hit, or mass castle or other extremes or variants etc). Each to own, find what want and do it (is the fun of the system). However, either way Crovus's just don't fit in... I think they need Power of the Machine Spirit (this for cost CA18, would make them viable)
I'm more of a fluff/casual player, so I do run the Corvus quite often. But yes, in terms of performance on the tabletop it is quite bad. 90% of the time my Corvus dies turn 1. It's also just so frustrating that our super-elite flyer doesn't get PotMs.
Speaking of fielding sub-par units:
I really like Terminators and just ordered a box. How would you equip a squad of 5? Just cheap as possible with PS, SBs? I probably don't need even more Stormbolters. So maybe a few mixed weapons for tactical flexability?
Causalis wrote: I'm more of a fluff/casual player, so I do run the Corvus quite often. But yes, in terms of performance on the tabletop it is quite bad. 90% of the time my Corvus dies turn 1. It's also just so frustrating that our super-elite flyer doesn't get PotMs.
Speaking of fielding sub-par units:
I really like Terminators and just ordered a box. How would you equip a squad of 5? Just cheap as possible with PS, SBs? I probably don't need even more Stormbolters. So maybe a few mixed weapons for tactical flexability?
Not really much options for termies either cheapish SB & PS/PM/PA or expensive TH/SS or the awesome looking models:
Cyclone missile, Storm bolter and Power weapon or Assualt cannon and Power weapon.
Or the better looking:
Cyclone missile, Storm bolter, Meltagun and Power Fist or Assault cannon, Meltagun and Power Fist.
If want usability go the first guys, if going power level go the last.
I mean Cyclone/SB/PW termie is still 69pts (2x Missile vets is 68pts) but maybe a thing there now especially in stalker squads etc.
I am the wrong person to ask. I love terminators...
I have some Cyclone/SB/PF/MG and more Assault Cannon/PF/MG and then some SB/MG/PF and a few Captains Combi-Melta/PF/MG...
I never use these models except when play power or in large points games.. but I love them...
EDIT:
If you ordered a box of normal terminators, you can't equip PW, you will have a lot of power fists (look on bits sites for power weapons). You will also need the DW shoulder pads from their upgrade sprue (unless ordered DW terminators). You will also need to order alternate chapters for the other shoulder pad (I found shapeways good for this). Normal marine shoulder pads are to small.
Not cheap just for a 5x DW termie squad (in comparison) you need to get: 5x man termie squad, a 5x Termie DW Shoulder pads, 5x Different legion Shoulder Pads for Termies and then weapons on top
EDIT 2:
A cheap way to get some good terminator is order a box of GK paladins/terminators (just equip them how want and paint them DW colours, I have done for a few of mine and look good (granted had a gak tone of DW Termie shoulder pads), still have to bitz or shapeways the alternate shoulder but look good)
terminators are a tough one, I love them too. It's a shame the assaut cannon didn't drop, I have 2 AC terminators...may never use them. I do use cheap SB/PM in my Kill team sqds.
Looking at my unit already built, it's a sgt w TH/SS, 2 AC/PF, 2 SB/PM. Just not a good mix really, lol. I'll use them for fun maybe someday. Or maybe I'll throw a couple extra termies in a kill team. I like using the TH/SS guy as a possible character too.
DoomMouse wrote: Comp list idea with a deathwatch primary then the usual stuff...
Watch master
Watch captain with TH and JP
5X 9 vets - 8 with SB and SS, one VV with TH
AM loyal 32
Raven castellan
Cos everything important deserves a 3++
Similar to the list i have been running for the past few months.
However i suggest a few changes:
- loyal 32 and Raven Castellan stay same if you can add in a morter team or 2
- DW:
I run 4 maxed units. I suggest going 4 and not 5. 3 units DS and the 4th moves forward and then gets beconed with the relic on one Watch Capt. I now (post CA) run 2 terminators, 2 bikes, 1 vanvet (twin pistols) and 5 SB/SS vets. This unit, auto passes Moral, 3++, disengages combat and shoots as well as charges, 2 additional wounds, 2+5+, and mortal wound tanking (4), moves fast.
the 5th unit sort of gets left behind in the dust. The loyal 32 and Castellian hold rear objs while the 4 units play forward. It all functions as a very solid Hammer and Anvil army
I combo the above with 2 Hammer/SB/JP watch capts.
DoomMouse wrote: Comp list idea with a deathwatch primary then the usual stuff...
Watch master
Watch captain with TH and JP
5X 9 vets - 8 with SB and SS, one VV with TH
AM loyal 32
Raven castellan
Cos everything important deserves a 3++
Similar to the list i have been running for the past few months.
However i suggest a few changes:
- loyal 32 and Raven Castellan stay same if you can add in a morter team or 2
- DW:
I run 4 maxed units. I suggest going 4 and not 5. 3 units DS and the 4th moves forward and then gets beconed with the relic on one Watch Capt. I now (post CA) run 2 terminators, 2 bikes, 1 vanvet (twin pistols) and 5 SB/SS vets. This unit, auto passes Moral, 3++, disengages combat and shoots as well as charges, 2 additional wounds, 2+5+, and mortal wound tanking (4), moves fast.
the 5th unit sort of gets left behind in the dust. The loyal 32 and Castellian hold rear objs while the 4 units play forward. It all functions as a very solid Hammer and Anvil army
I combo the above with 2 Hammer/SB/JP watch capts.
I honestly won't put too many other biker / Terminator models in there. Imo, the most generic killteam squad have 1 Termi, biker and vanvet each is enough, the rest should all be Veteran with SS and SB.
If not for the T5 and fast moving, or the 2+ save, I may not consider Biker or Terminator in DW have that high value. Vanvet is better for fallback and shoot, as the real unique thing in Deathwatch is the special ammo which is in shooting.
DoomMouse wrote: Comp list idea with a deathwatch primary then the usual stuff...
Watch master
Watch captain with TH and JP
5X 9 vets - 8 with SB and SS, one VV with TH
AM loyal 32
Raven castellan
Cos everything important deserves a 3++
Similar to the list i have been running for the past few months.
However i suggest a few changes:
- loyal 32 and Raven Castellan stay same if you can add in a morter team or 2
- DW:
I run 4 maxed units. I suggest going 4 and not 5. 3 units DS and the 4th moves forward and then gets beconed with the relic on one Watch Capt. I now (post CA) run 2 terminators, 2 bikes, 1 vanvet (twin pistols) and 5 SB/SS vets. This unit, auto passes Moral, 3++, disengages combat and shoots as well as charges, 2 additional wounds, 2+5+, and mortal wound tanking (4), moves fast.
the 5th unit sort of gets left behind in the dust. The loyal 32 and Castellian hold rear objs while the 4 units play forward. It all functions as a very solid Hammer and Anvil army
I combo the above with 2 Hammer/SB/JP watch capts.
I honestly won't put too many other biker / Terminator models in there. Imo, the most generic killteam squad have 1 Termi, biker and vanvet each is enough, the rest should all be Veteran with SS and SB.
If not for the T5 and fast moving, or the 2+ save, I may not consider Biker or Terminator in DW have that high value. Vanvet is better for fallback and shoot, as the real unique thing in Deathwatch is the special ammo which is in shooting.
to each his own... however i have found that the squads have a tendency to lack durability when tanking small arms fire such as bolter or lasgun fire. So the second Terminator is there mostly for the additional 2 wounds of 2+. across 4 squads its been worth it. Regarding the 2nd bike. I was on the fence about it but having played it a bunch of times i found it helped out a few things. first it allowed the unit to move further then before as well as i now have 2 models i instantly can toss 4 mortal wounds on. The bike is key in the unit to jump back in combat to either prevent getting shot in my opponents turn or it locks them in place.
Instead of the corvus what would people run to get a bit of survivability and speed in the list?
With the points drops in CA I can afford a couple more veterans and swap out my black Star for a repulsor which would save one of my big Fortis kill teams from having to deploy on the table and keep them safe as well as having a very cool model in the table.
Only thing I don't want to do is drop the corvus only to replace it with another useless unit.
Rogerio134134 wrote: Instead of the corvus what would people run to get a bit of survivability and speed in the list?
So far I used the deep strike stratagem for "mobility".
Last game I dropped a Leviathan Dread and an Intercessor/Aggressor Squad to good effect and save on the walking.
Infantry I use is mostly Primaris and I don't buy the Repulsor so deep strike is my only option anyway.
The only thing it can bring is a) a big reduction in your drops and b) a decent gun platform if it doesn't move.
So that's how I use it now. It gets the infernum so that on turn 1 flyers are -2 to hit it, if I lose initiative. It drops into hover mode immediately and benefits from watchmaster buffs. Its troops disembark turn 1, benefitting from that extra movement, and it functions as AT. 210pts, or 220pt with the hurrican bolters (optional in this role). Not cheap or cutting edge, but the best use I've found for it.
DoomMouse wrote: Comp list idea with a deathwatch primary then the usual stuff...
Watch master
Watch captain with TH and JP
5X 9 vets - 8 with SB and SS, one VV with TH
AM loyal 32
Raven castellan
Cos everything important deserves a 3++
Similar to the list i have been running for the past few months.
However i suggest a few changes:
- loyal 32 and Raven Castellan stay same if you can add in a morter team or 2
- DW:
I run 4 maxed units. I suggest going 4 and not 5. 3 units DS and the 4th moves forward and then gets beconed with the relic on one Watch Capt. I now (post CA) run 2 terminators, 2 bikes, 1 vanvet (twin pistols) and 5 SB/SS vets. This unit, auto passes Moral, 3++, disengages combat and shoots as well as charges, 2 additional wounds, 2+5+, and mortal wound tanking (4), moves fast.
the 5th unit sort of gets left behind in the dust. The loyal 32 and Castellian hold rear objs while the 4 units play forward. It all functions as a very solid Hammer and Anvil army
I combo the above with 2 Hammer/SB/JP watch capts.
I honestly won't put too many other biker / Terminator models in there. Imo, the most generic killteam squad have 1 Termi, biker and vanvet each is enough, the rest should all be Veteran with SS and SB.
If not for the T5 and fast moving, or the 2+ save, I may not consider Biker or Terminator in DW have that high value. Vanvet is better for fallback and shoot, as the real unique thing in Deathwatch is the special ammo which is in shooting.
With the new price point of Terminators, they make excellent sponges for AP-0 weapons actually. I'd recommend taking a look again.
Causalis wrote: I'm more of a fluff/casual player, so I do run the Corvus quite often. But yes, in terms of performance on the tabletop it is quite bad. 90% of the time my Corvus dies turn 1. It's also just so frustrating that our super-elite flyer doesn't get PotMs.
Speaking of fielding sub-par units:
I really like Terminators and just ordered a box. How would you equip a squad of 5? Just cheap as possible with PS, SBs? I probably don't need even more Stormbolters. So maybe a few mixed weapons for tactical flexability?
I've been running my deathwatch contingent with a whole bunch of terminators (my army is pretty cobbled-together, and I had the 10 terminators that came with Space Hulk on hand so they went in to the army) and I've had fairly decent success with them actually.
Look at a terminator as a 9-point upgrade over a veteran to get the 2+ W2 5++ (good deal) who is forced to take at least a power weapon (usually not worthwhile).
They add a couple more cookies to mixed vet squads if you're deep striking them, namely immunity to morale and the ability to hop back to your teleport homers so you can fire again if you get tied up. So if you only have 5 total, my first instinct would be to use them like
-one gets a promotion to Terminator Captain, who is now like 5pts more expensive than jump captain and wants the same wargear
-split off the remainder as onsie-twosie addons to your deepstriking/corvusing vet squads.
In my list I end up running one squad of five basic fist/SB termies with an assault cannon thrown in there, the two assault termiantor sculpts added onto my assault veteran squad, and the remaining termies scattered thru the list with the sword/sb sculpt as my captain.
Mostly that's due to the space hulk kit coming with fixed loadouts. if i could do all pmaul/sb I probably would.
Got my first post-CA game in against a Tau Longstrike + Hammerhead list and felt pretty good. Played at 1200 points so not the biggest game, but enough to get a feel for the new loadouts.
Lost turn 1, but I normally deploy defensively anyway and we tend to play with a lot of terrain, so Tau didn't have much in the way of firing lanes. What shots they could get off either pinged off layered stormshields, or safely off cover. Mostly just maneuevered on my turn, but was able to snipe out most of his pathfinders with my Stalker Vets, negating the bulk of his infantry heavy weapons and markerlights.
Turn 2 rolls in and he gets his hammerheads in position and lights me up, but between stormshields and overkill he doesn't degrade my line too badly (I play almost exclusively infantry, so the lack of single hard targets played in my favor). Drop my two fortis teams on him, each of which drops a hammerhead and severely dents another (one team was absolutely on fire, its Hellblaster cadre alone put out 20 damage in the drop). MLs from the Vet teams put down the rest of the gunships, then it devolved into mopup of the remaining Fire Warriors and infiltrator teams as he scrambled for objectives to try and win out on VPs.
Still need a lot more playtime with the new numbers, but I'm liking what I'm seeing so far.
I'm loving terminators as bullet catchers in my squads, certain armies can really struggle with the 2+, orks in particular. The cyclone is also nicely priced now plus they look cool :-)
I usually take my Corvus as I love he model and it adds much needed mobility but unless it's near the WM it just isn't reliable enough, with the drop in points I'm gonna try it with the twin lascannon as anti-tank is the main thing I struggle with in the army.
I take the Corvus pretty often. It's not very good, but it's a solid distraction piece and lets you make the most of Frag Cannons. It's kind of all or nothing and if you're opponent gets some lucky rolls it can die without accomplishing anything and tank a game pretty hard. I used to run the Auspex, but it only gives you a couple extra hits, where the Halo tends to help you survive longer against things that threaten it.
The lack of PotMS is pretty much the entire problem. Not sure why it lacks it, but it does. It's bombs are also a waste of time in most situations. If you're not using it for a Frag Cannon bomb I'd use a Razorback instead, or just rely more on the teleportarium.
I think there's a lot of value in putting termis in Vet squads. The primary drawback of doing so is simply that they generally encourage you to take the Corvus to deliver them....
WisdomLS wrote: I'm loving terminators as bullet catchers in my squads, certain armies can really struggle with the 2+, orks in particular. The cyclone is also nicely priced now plus they look cool :-)
I usually take my Corvus as I love he model and it adds much needed mobility but unless it's near the WM it just isn't reliable enough, with the drop in points I'm gonna try it with the twin lascannon as anti-tank is the main thing I struggle with in the army.
Yea the Termie in the Vet squad is great. Its why i run 2.
Has anyone been running Dreads in DW ?
Last night i ran:
2 Jump Capts
4 10 man Vet squads Temie,VanVet,Bike, 7 SB/SS vets
3 Venerable Dreads TLC/ML 3 Mortis Dreads w/2 THBs
The list worked really well. The Ven Dreads popped Small vehicles while the Mortis dreads took out Chaf and T5 bike units. Vets DS in and 1 relocated with the Beacon. 2x moved out of combat via beacons and regrouped in my deployment. I really enjoyed playing the dreads. Plus Wisdom of the Ancients helps them out a bunch
DW Dreads are pretty great. Pretty much every time I add a vehicle, I consider replacing it with a Dread instead. Benefiting from most of our attack bonsues makes a pretty huge difference. My standard backfield is a Mortis with 2x TLC and a Leviathan. Strongly considering more after the buffs.
Running 2 Vendreads this weekend with TLC/MLs. Also have 1 stormshield character that may take the Dominus Aegis if I feel that I could use the invuln save for them and the Corvus Turn 1.
I'm still trying to decide my 2nd HQ choice (1st is a JPTH/SS capt). Currently it's a Libby with stave/bp, but I don't think the psychic powers are that great. I know there will be Knights, AM, Drukhari, SOB, so no real psychic threat at the moment. Going with the Corvus sqd, I think it would be better boosting their shooting (which rules out the cheap Chaplain, although that would yield me another vet) which means a second captain (not enough points for a WM)
So with 98pts to spare, I could take a Capt w combi-melta, power sword for some more AT. Of course the SB is always good, allowing me to take a Xeno blade for example.
I find the reroll difference in the Watch Master pretty substantial if you can fit it in. Particularly when it comes to overwatch and/or high volume of fire things like Aggressors, you can do some crazy things.
bullyboy wrote: Running 2 Vendreads this weekend with TLC/MLs. Also have 1 stormshield character that may take the Dominus Aegis if I feel that I could use the invuln save for them and the Corvus Turn 1.
I'm still trying to decide my 2nd HQ choice (1st is a JPTH/SS capt). Currently it's a Libby with stave/bp, but I don't think the psychic powers are that great. I know there will be Knights, AM, Drukhari, SOB, so no real psychic threat at the moment. Going with the Corvus sqd, I think it would be better boosting their shooting (which rules out the cheap Chaplain, although that would yield me another vet) which means a second captain (not enough points for a WM)
So with 98pts to spare, I could take a Capt w combi-melta, power sword for some more AT. Of course the SB is always good, allowing me to take a Xeno blade for example.
Thoughts?
The Aegis DOES work for Dreads, huh? You better screen with some Infantry or Skitarii though.
bullyboy wrote: Running 2 Vendreads this weekend with TLC/MLs. Also have 1 stormshield character that may take the Dominus Aegis if I feel that I could use the invuln save for them and the Corvus Turn 1.
I'm still trying to decide my 2nd HQ choice (1st is a JPTH/SS capt). Currently it's a Libby with stave/bp, but I don't think the psychic powers are that great. I know there will be Knights, AM, Drukhari, SOB, so no real psychic threat at the moment. Going with the Corvus sqd, I think it would be better boosting their shooting (which rules out the cheap Chaplain, although that would yield me another vet) which means a second captain (not enough points for a WM)
So with 98pts to spare, I could take a Capt w combi-melta, power sword for some more AT. Of course the SB is always good, allowing me to take a Xeno blade for example.
Thoughts?
The Aegis DOES work for Dreads, huh? You better screen with some Infantry or Skitarii though.
Heck, it even works for the Corvus and my Razorback. It's any Deathwatch model, not just infantry and bikes like Azrael's little helm.
On second thoughts though, I might just keep the Libby around. There is something to be said for casting Might of Heroes on a TH captain in conjunction with the Castellan of the Black Vault and Malleus Doctrine when facing Knights. That's a legitimate threat to put ~16 wounds on one in a combat phase.
bullyboy wrote: Running 2 Vendreads this weekend with TLC/MLs. Also have 1 stormshield character that may take the Dominus Aegis if I feel that I could use the invuln save for them and the Corvus Turn 1.
I'm still trying to decide my 2nd HQ choice (1st is a JPTH/SS capt). Currently it's a Libby with stave/bp, but I don't think the psychic powers are that great. I know there will be Knights, AM, Drukhari, SOB, so no real psychic threat at the moment. Going with the Corvus sqd, I think it would be better boosting their shooting (which rules out the cheap Chaplain, although that would yield me another vet) which means a second captain (not enough points for a WM)
So with 98pts to spare, I could take a Capt w combi-melta, power sword for some more AT. Of course the SB is always good, allowing me to take a Xeno blade for example.
Thoughts?
The Aegis DOES work for Dreads, huh? You better screen with some Infantry or Skitarii though.
I think the aegis only works turn 1 if we go first. Because the wording says if we didn't move in our movement phase then we confer the 5+ invul. So either hope to go first or weather the storm.
Seeing them in someones list above, am I right in thinking that the FW mortis dreads didn't drop in points for some reason? Seems silly and makes them pretty bad in comparison to a standard with ML +
WisdomLS wrote: Seeing them in someones list above, am I right in thinking that the FW mortis dreads didn't drop in points for some reason? Seems silly and makes them pretty bad in comparison to a standard with ML +
Standard mortis was untouched, the contemptor variant dropped a smidge.
bullyboy wrote: Running 2 Vendreads this weekend with TLC/MLs. Also have 1 stormshield character that may take the Dominus Aegis if I feel that I could use the invuln save for them and the Corvus Turn 1.
I'm still trying to decide my 2nd HQ choice (1st is a JPTH/SS capt). Currently it's a Libby with stave/bp, but I don't think the psychic powers are that great. I know there will be Knights, AM, Drukhari, SOB, so no real psychic threat at the moment. Going with the Corvus sqd, I think it would be better boosting their shooting (which rules out the cheap Chaplain, although that would yield me another vet) which means a second captain (not enough points for a WM)
So with 98pts to spare, I could take a Capt w combi-melta, power sword for some more AT. Of course the SB is always good, allowing me to take a Xeno blade for example.
Thoughts?
The Aegis DOES work for Dreads, huh? You better screen with some Infantry or Skitarii though.
I think the aegis only works turn 1 if we go first. Because the wording says if we didn't move in our movement phase then we confer the 5+ invul. So either hope to go first or weather the storm.
It works if you go second, you just can't move in your movement phase. You don't get punished just because you haven't had a movement phase.
bullyboy wrote: Running 2 Vendreads this weekend with TLC/MLs. Also have 1 stormshield character that may take the Dominus Aegis if I feel that I could use the invuln save for them and the Corvus Turn 1.
I'm still trying to decide my 2nd HQ choice (1st is a JPTH/SS capt). Currently it's a Libby with stave/bp, but I don't think the psychic powers are that great. I know there will be Knights, AM, Drukhari, SOB, so no real psychic threat at the moment. Going with the Corvus sqd, I think it would be better boosting their shooting (which rules out the cheap Chaplain, although that would yield me another vet) which means a second captain (not enough points for a WM)
So with 98pts to spare, I could take a Capt w combi-melta, power sword for some more AT. Of course the SB is always good, allowing me to take a Xeno blade for example.
Thoughts?
The Aegis DOES work for Dreads, huh? You better screen with some Infantry or Skitarii though.
I think the aegis only works turn 1 if we go first. Because the wording says if we didn't move in our movement phase then we confer the 5+ invul. So either hope to go first or weather the storm.
It works if you go second, you just can't move in your movement phase. You don't get punished just because you haven't had a movement phase.
It won't help the corvus if you don't plan on dropping it into hover mode. I personally use my corvus to deliver a nasty vet frag cannon squad which for me would take it out of shield range. Savvy opponents who go first would either shoot the things that your trying to protect or snipe the character with the shield. Not being a Debbie downer just trying to tell you to not depend on it to help much. I'm an ork player also and I use the kff 5+ invul. It's better than nothing but not worth the relic spot to me personally.
WisdomLS wrote: Seeing them in someones list above, am I right in thinking that the FW mortis dreads didn't drop in points for some reason? Seems silly and makes them pretty bad in comparison to a standard with ML +
No they didnt. Im taking them becuase of the ability to grab 6 dreads.
So, let's chat about something a little bit silly for a minute here.
Swagdisco terminators (Pfist+Melta, Combi-Melta, Typhoon missile) have dropped from 132 points in the index to a paltry, a PALTRY 98 after chapter approved.
While you may think that a model with T4 2W costing 98 points is silly, and you may be right, I think there might be something to be said for these guys in that they can be embedded anti-tank shots in your usual Storm'N'Storm veteran squads while taking up only a single model slot.
I tested out the following setup the last time I brought my deathwatch:
6 Storm'n'Storm veterans
1 double BP vanvet (for fall back and shoot)
1 storm bolter/psword terminator
2 swagdisco terminators
That's 364, and giving up 2 possible storm bolters from the squad. Before, I would run 2 more vets in their place, and to get the same firepower I'd need two twinlas/missile dreads (240pts versus the extra 156 for the terminators.)
The terminators are safe from turn 1 alpha strikes, drop in range of my reroll characters, and have the same access to the +1w vs heavy support stratagem that the dreads had, except that I can use it once and have them both benefit. The biggest drawback obviously is that I need to find a way to get those two guys within 12" of a heavy target, and the loss of 8 shots out of the vet squad.
There is however the "power move" factor of bringing 98 point terminators to the table and not giving a feth.
Deathwatch + Indomitus Crusaders Specialist Detachment from the vigilus campaign book
HOLY SMOKES yes, CP intensive, but extremly brutal possible combinations
10 marine deathwatch intercessor squad with bolt rifles, upgrade to veteran.. get in rapid fire range, play the rapidfire strat to make the bolt rifles rapidfire 2, that's 40 shots, hitting on 3s, wounding on 2s at AP-1
any of the strats from that specialist detachment used on 10 man intercessor squads, in combination with deathwatch special issue ammunition will be brutal
as far as "mixed" squads... the squad data sheet has the intercessor keyword.. adding other types of marines to the squad grants special rules, but does not change the keyword, so yes, technicaly would be allowed
the strats would only affect the intercessors in the squad, but still a viable option,
10 deathwatch with stalker bolt rifles, pay 1 CP to give them "sniper" special rule for 1 shooting phase, 10 shots, hit on 3+, wound on 2+(6+ causes mortal wound in addition to normal damage, and DW have strats to give +1 to wound, so mortal wound on 5+ with that) , with AP-2
Gunrunner1775 wrote: Deathwatch + Indomitus Crusaders Specialist Detachment from the vigilus campaign book
HOLY SMOKES
yes, CP intensive, but extremly brutal possible combinations
10 marine deathwatch intercessor squad with bolt rifles, upgrade to veteran.. get in rapid fire range, play the rapidfire strat to make the bolt rifles rapidfire 2, that's 40 shots, hitting on 3s, wounding on 2s at AP-1
any of the strats from that specialist detachment used on 10 man intercessor squads, in combination with deathwatch special issue ammunition will be brutal
as far as "mixed" squads... the squad data sheet has the intercessor keyword.. adding other types of marines to the squad grants special rules, but does not change the keyword, so yes, technicaly would be allowed
the strats would only affect the intercessors in the squad, but still a viable option,
stalker bolt rifles.. gain sniper ability for 1cp for 1 shooting phase, use hellfire shell, hit on 3s, wound on 2s with AP-2
I Brought up this scenario a page or two back and was told the indomitus stuff was for vanilla marines. The Deathwatch supposedly have their own stuff in the vigilus book. I don't have the book so I don't have any concrete answers. If this were allowed it would allow for some bonkers combos.
have the books in front of me, nothing special dedicated only to deathwatch. nothing indicating deathwatch can not take it
the indomitus crusaders specialist detachment affects Primaris captains, primaris lieutenants, primaris ancients, intercessors and inceptors
the deathwatch codex intercessor sheet has the intercessor keyword, so its eligible (adding an aggressor and/or reaver does not add those keywords to the data sheet, this would make them not eligible if that were the case)
Sterling191 wrote: Deathwatch don’t use Space Marines detachments or stratagems. They use Deathwatch detachments and stratagems.
Unless it's FAQed otherwise, the wording on the top of the stratagems has no rules meaning (see how GW recently had to errata Agents of Vect to require you to have a kabal of the black heart model on the board)
So as of now, Deathwatch can use it on their units of intercessors, but remember they dont have Primaris Captains, we have Primaris WATCH captains, so they gain no benefit/cant take the trait/relic.
WisdomLS wrote: Seeing them in someones list above, am I right in thinking that the FW mortis dreads didn't drop in points for some reason? Seems silly and makes them pretty bad in comparison to a standard with ML +
Standard mortis was untouched, the contemptor variant dropped a smidge.
Yeah, the Mortis didn't drop in points sadly. The main reason I still need it over a standard one is the need for Heavy Support to unlock the Leviathan. A contemptor would probably do the job better, but I don't have one right now. The mortis still more or less gets the job done, even if its not optimal.
Sterling191 wrote: Deathwatch don’t use Space Marines detachments or stratagems. They use Deathwatch detachments and stratagems.
Unless it's FAQed otherwise, the wording on the top of the stratagems has no rules meaning (see how GW recently had to errata Agents of Vect to require you to have a kabal of the black heart model on the board)
So as of now, Deathwatch can use it on their units of intercessors, but remember they dont have Primaris Captains, we have Primaris WATCH captains, so they gain no benefit/cant take the trait/relic.
aye, correct on the watch captain, but would never want to blow my precious CP on those strats on a lone model, and better traits / relics for the deathwatch officers anyway, besides, takeing a watch master is better then takeing a watch captain
Sterling191 wrote: Deathwatch don’t use Space Marines detachments or stratagems. They use Deathwatch detachments and stratagems.
Unless it's FAQed otherwise, the wording on the top of the stratagems has no rules meaning (see how GW recently had to errata Agents of Vect to require you to have a kabal of the black heart model on the board)
So as of now, Deathwatch can use it on their units of intercessors, but remember they dont have Primaris Captains, we have Primaris WATCH captains, so they gain no benefit/cant take the trait/relic.
The strategem to create the specialist detachment requires a Space Marine detachment. Deathwatch doesn’t have Space Marine detachments.
It works if you go second, you just can't move in your movement phase. You don't get punished just because you haven't had a movement phase.
Yeah, I think the issue is that it doesn't work if you go first since you don't have a previous movement phase to trigger it. Or so the thinking goes. I believe there was an FAQ for a similar rule that dealt with that, but I'm having trouble finding it.
Sterling191 wrote: Deathwatch don’t use Space Marines detachments or stratagems. They use Deathwatch detachments and stratagems.
Unless it's FAQed otherwise, the wording on the top of the stratagems has no rules meaning (see how GW recently had to errata Agents of Vect to require you to have a kabal of the black heart model on the board)
So as of now, Deathwatch can use it on their units of intercessors, but remember they dont have Primaris Captains, we have Primaris WATCH captains, so they gain no benefit/cant take the trait/relic.
Incorrect - it requires a Space Marine detachment.
the_scotsman wrote: So, let's chat about something a little bit silly for a minute here.
Swagdisco terminators (Pfist+Melta, Combi-Melta, Typhoon missile) have dropped from 132 points in the index to a paltry, a PALTRY 98 after chapter approved.
Swagdisco, really?
Silly and illegal. Standard dw terminators cannot take combi-weapons.
WisdomLS wrote: Seeing them in someones list above, am I right in thinking that the FW mortis dreads didn't drop in points for some reason? Seems silly and makes them pretty bad in comparison to a standard with ML +
Standard mortis was untouched, the contemptor variant dropped a smidge.
Yeah, the Mortis didn't drop in points sadly. The main reason I still need it over a standard one is the need for Heavy Support to unlock the Leviathan. A contemptor would probably do the job better, but I don't have one right now. The mortis still more or less gets the job done, even if its not optimal.
FWIW, running the numbers:
The changes to the cost of the actual dreadnoughts aren't all that significant, but the change in cost to the weapons matters quite a bit. Overall, the Contemptor has taken the top slot as our most efficient armor cracker. The Mortis actually remains more efficient than either a regular or venerable Dreadnought, but it incredibly close and venerables have a damage shrug. It's actually pretty... balanced? The Contemptor Mortis wins out by a fair bit though. That guy got good.
The Leviathan definitely lost out, just largely because LasCannons and Missile Launchers got a big enough drop per shot that the Storm Cannons are no longer more efficient vs things that dedicated armor cracking is designed to handle. That said, there's still nothing that takes DW buffs like this guy, and regardless of what the math says over an infinite timeline, his damage is almost certainly going to be more consistent than the low volume shots that are prone to blank vs accuracy, invul or just the variable damage.
So... yeah. Overall Dreadnoughts across the board evened out quite a bit and you probably don't NEED to go with the FW options nearly as badly. Haven't really looked into the CCW options. I'd be curious to see if any of them work out.
the_scotsman wrote: So, let's chat about something a little bit silly for a minute here.
Swagdisco terminators (Pfist+Melta, Combi-Melta, Typhoon missile) have dropped from 132 points in the index to a paltry, a PALTRY 98 after chapter approved.
Swagdisco, really?
Silly and illegal. Standard dw terminators cannot take combi-weapons.
Damn, you're right - I had my deathwatch terminator loadouts mixed up with my Space Wolf terminator loadouts, they can take combi-weapons. If only! Still, I suppose there's no stopping a Typhoon/Meltagun/Storm Bolter terminator from splitting his fire, shooting his three anti tank shots at a tank and his storm bolter at what the rest of the squad is shooting. Still the same tradeoff vs the lascannon/missile launcher dreadnought, but without the loss of firepower from the squad.
It costs 64 points to upgrade a Storm Bolter/Storm Shield vet to a terminator with MeltaFist and Typhoon. Compare to 120 for a separate Dreadnought with TL Las/ML.
Pros:
-Hidden in DS turn 1
-56 points less for the same number of anti-tank shots
-If you take multiples in a squad, you can get the "+1 to wound vs Heavy Support" stratagem on more of your anti tank units
-Probably dropping within range of your reroll aura characters
-Hidden behind 8-9 3++ wounds
Cons:
-Can't influence the game turn 1
-Shorter range, and must be both within 12" of an enemy heavy unit you want to use the Meltagun of, and within 12" of an enemy unit you want to doubletap with your storm bolters
-tank toughness
-2 lascannon shots+1 missile shot is better than 2 missile shots+1 melta shot
It's got some cons to be sure, but if you look at the damage you can bring down for the price, melta/missile terminators deal nearly twice as much damage vs tanks if they have their meltas in range, and only 0.4 damage less if they only have their missiles in range.
FWIW, it's not as efficient as the Mortis options (almost entirely because S8 vs T8 isn't as good as S9), but its fairly high on the charts. I wouldn't rule it out. Interestingly, you NEED the Melta there. The missiles alone don't quite cut it.
It works if you go second, you just can't move in your movement phase. You don't get punished just because you haven't had a movement phase.
Yeah, I think the issue is that it doesn't work if you go first since you don't have a previous movement phase to trigger it. Or so the thinking goes. I believe there was an FAQ for a similar rule that dealt with that, but I'm having trouble finding it.
Sterling191 wrote: Deathwatch don’t use Space Marines detachments or stratagems. They use Deathwatch detachments and stratagems.
Unless it's FAQed otherwise, the wording on the top of the stratagems has no rules meaning (see how GW recently had to errata Agents of Vect to require you to have a kabal of the black heart model on the board)
So as of now, Deathwatch can use it on their units of intercessors, but remember they dont have Primaris Captains, we have Primaris WATCH captains, so they gain no benefit/cant take the trait/relic.
Incorrect - it requires a Space Marine detachment.
I remember seeing something similar, along the lines of just because you haven't had that phase yet doesn't trigger the effect. It would be dumb if he did. I'll have to find it. It basically makes the relic worthless if it does that.
LunarSol wrote: FWIW, it's not as efficient as the Mortis options (almost entirely because S8 vs T8 isn't as good as S9), but its fairly high on the charts. I wouldn't rule it out. Interestingly, you NEED the Melta there. The missiles alone don't quite cut it.
Counterpoint on the quad-las dreads is that they attract fire like nobody's business, and at T7/3+ they pop pretty easily.
LunarSol wrote: FWIW, it's not as efficient as the Mortis options (almost entirely because S8 vs T8 isn't as good as S9), but its fairly high on the charts. I wouldn't rule it out. Interestingly, you NEED the Melta there. The missiles alone don't quite cut it.
Counterpoint on the quad-las dreads is that they attract fire like nobody's business, and at T7/3+ they pop pretty easily.
That's exactly why I'm considering the melta termies. Now that deathwatch squads are rock-solid with wall to wall stormshields and usually also 2+5++ bodies in there just waiting for lasgun shots, it seems like a very nice place to sneak my anti-tank firepower into where it's not just "Here's my couple of T7 W8 bodies that I have to deploy in line of sight or they get -1 to hit on the turn they move, pretty please don't shoot them thanks"
I find if you don't saturate a defensive profile with multiple targets, it's just not worth taking that defensive profile. In a list where I only have 2 dreads, those dreads just eat every antitank weapon in my opponent's 2000 points and die. If I were running dreads Id want to make sure I have rhinos, maybe a land raider or an allied knight on the board to distract from them for a round or two.
LunarSol wrote: FWIW, it's not as efficient as the Mortis options (almost entirely because S8 vs T8 isn't as good as S9), but its fairly high on the charts. I wouldn't rule it out. Interestingly, you NEED the Melta there. The missiles alone don't quite cut it.
like the description above Lunar, i am in the process of trying to figure what dreads to go with atm for antitank and backup. I have 3 vens, 3 HB Mortis Dreads and a Levi. I dont have the Contemptors however after your post i am considering them maybe 3 ? i really wanted to run 6 for fun with my 4 vet squads but im thinking 3 LC Mortis Contemptors sound too good to pass up.
like the description above Lunar, i am in the process of trying to figure what dreads to go with atm for antitank and backup. I have 3 vens, 3 HB Mortis Dreads and a Levi. I dont have the Contemptors however after your post i am considering them maybe 3 ? i really wanted to run 6 for fun with my 4 vet squads but im thinking 3 LC Mortis Contemptors sound too good to pass up.
3 LC/ML Vens + 3 QL Mortis Contemptors supplemented with Vet MLs and an Aegis is where my brain is going for serious AT concentration. Do it right and all have a 5++, which gives them a chance to survive turn 1 counter-battery fire.
like the description above Lunar, i am in the process of trying to figure what dreads to go with atm for antitank and backup. I have 3 vens, 3 HB Mortis Dreads and a Levi. I dont have the Contemptors however after your post i am considering them maybe 3 ? i really wanted to run 6 for fun with my 4 vet squads but im thinking 3 LC Mortis Contemptors sound too good to pass up.
3 LC/ML Vens + 3 QL Mortis Contemptors supplemented with Vet MLs and an Aegis is where my brain is going for serious AT concentration. Do it right and all have a 5++, which gives them a chance to survive turn 1 counter-battery fire.
love it.. not sure how you get 5++ on all the dreads though
Just ran the numbers, its 1012 for the dreads plus an Aegis Cappy with a Stormbolter / Stalker Boltgun (i usually give my buffer cappies the Stalker, but YMMV).
ImPhaeronWeasel wrote: Has anyone converted a TermiCap. with 1x Melta and 1x PowerFist melta? Im interested in doing one myself but dont know where to get all the bits from.
I have 2 termie captains with 1x Meltagun/power fist & 1x combi-melta each from norm SM termie captains and 1 converted from a GK paladin
Norm ones:
1. I took the normal plastic termi-captain
2. Used a melta-fist from the Salamanders Space Marine Terminator GARRAN BRANATAR (Deathwatch Overkill 40K, I bought like 15 of this model from bits sites just for the melta/pf to save on conversion for other models. Is easy conversion if want to make it from scratch, just the pf/mg, just a chainfist cut the blade off and put a meltagun on) I found easier to just buy and looks better. However, if better skill than me go the cheaper option).
3. Blood angel terminator librarian (DW version idk if still available, I bought a few). If get the normal BA Termie Lib still has a combi-melta for a termie (can substitute for a chaos termie combi-melta, but I don't think looks as good)
3. A bit of green stuff and time.
I did a third one up same principle just used a GK paladin as the base, looks better. However, all look good.
Obviously all have DW shoulder pads and different chapter shoulder pads (I went Red scorpions, Salamanders and Minotaurs for mine).
All look awesome and seamless.
Since chapter approved 2018 I think they are cheaper at 134pts. I still think the WC with JP, Combi-melta and TH better option for cheaper points, just cause of move (is big) etc and support options, or the classic JP/TH/SS (though I don't rate as much, why waste your BS 2+).
EDIT: If I could do all my termies again I would just buy GK termies, shave off some bits, hoods etc and just add some DW bits, DW shoulders and various other chapter shouders etc (they pretty much have same symbology as norm DW marines on their legs and chest etc, just paint them DW) atm I am half and half and looks ok, but I am slowly replacing my 'norm termies' with GK cause they look good (personal preference).
Comes out to 51 wounds with 3++, another 10 with 4++, another 12 t5 wounds, and 37 t7 wounds. Offence includes 6 lazcannons, 3 missles, the Redemptor, about 39 stormbolters with SIA, the two watch captains (one with bane bolts), a bunch of T4 melee, and 12 powerfists.
Pretty tasty list, but I'd drop the redemptor and bikes to make room for a Lev, and drop one captain for a libby with MoH (for the Lev) and NZ for a hail mary. You'd need a squad of hellblasters or a quad cannon too for the lev tax. Something like this:
You'd be dropping some mobility with the bikes, and one cp with the vanguard, but picking up a lot lot more gun. Redemptor's loadout is a bit redundant with all the SIA SBs, imo, but I see why he's very viable now.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'd probably stick a heavy bolter in one of the squads actually, and lose 1 HKM on the dread, so I can access 2 MW strats a turn.
Eihnlazer wrote: Thunderhammers aren't worth the increased points if you cant add extra attacks to the captains (like you can with blood angels).
Yeah the damage is better on average, but you can theoretically get the same damage with the fists for less than half the price.
Thurnder Hammer is good in that it is consistent than Powerfist. But for the price of 1 Hammer on Character, you can get 2 Powerfists and almost 1 Storm bolter. So for the points the PF wins out.
However, I suddenly realized that on Characters, the consistence in damage may be very important. Since Character is a single model now so it can be vunerable when they are only T4/T5 with 5-7 wounds. For example, if you charged the Captain into a Carnifex ot DeffDread, and somehow inflict 3 unsaved wounds, the differences between TH and PF maybe the glory of big game hunter and getting the Scything Talon or Dread Claws punch back into the face and risking losing your valuable HQ. It could be a tough call.
Powefists are trash compared to THs. Both weapons penalise your ability to hit, and both wound on a 4+ against their main target, so the few that do get through need to count. The reason they dropped to a more realistic price is that they are a lot worse.
You can't predict damage with any reliability with a 1d3 weapon, and if you're risking one of your caps in a charge & cc, you have to know if it's worth it, if it can get the job done. Unles the target is already near dead, or isn't worth your time, then you can't be sure with a PF.
Finally, you can indeed add extra attacks to the captains - fight again and, cheaper, fight again on death, are both very common strats for us, assuming a double batallion for CPs, especially against knights. Neither are really worth it in the same way, with a PF.
I know we were tanking about Ven Dreads with the LasML loadout, but how do we feel about making that Lascannon a Plasma Cannon? On average it'll do the same number of shots, and it IS significantly cheaper. Main downside is of course only 2 damage compared to an average of 3.5, and S8 vs S9, but that's only relevant for Knights.
I bring this up as I'm frantically listhammering, and I notice this is 24 points saved. I feel that's significant enough to warrant a little bit of discussion.
Plasma cannon on dreads is a terrible idea for the same reason as a missile launcher: It’s sticking a single devastate-equivalent weapon onto a slot that can hold two of them. Inefficient use of the platform.
changemod wrote: Plasma cannon on dreads is a terrible idea for the same reason as a missile launcher: It’s sticking a single devastate-equivalent weapon onto a slot that can hold two of them. Inefficient use of the platform.
It's usually implied you pair the ML with the Las, so I was more playing around with the thought of going PC/ML instead of LC/ML. Those points totally add up when you run 3 Dreads.
Got 2 games in with my DW yesterday before 3rd was abandoned due to power outage at store.
First was awful vs Knights with tempestus allies playing the relic. I deployed poorly in hindsight but also got zero love from my At units. My vendreads and razorback got plenty of AT through the void shields and I never rolled more than a 2 for damage on my las and missiles, even with a reroll. The most damage I did to a knight was 5 when he charged some frag cannons. It was a disaster basically. Knights just tore though my veterans with their gatlings.
Second game was vs IG which I think I woul have won if the power didn't go out. The army played very well taking out a lot of his force for little loss. I was losing the VP battle early due to his board control, but the mobility of the corvus, deepstriking vets and beacon angelis was very effective.
Really did not like the poor showing from the ven dreads though, very disheartening vs knights. The fickle nature of the D6 (granted, he failed a ton of his saves too)
Lev with Fortis is my preferred anti-knight gun dread, funnily enough. 20+3 shots, hitting on 2s, wounding on 4s/3s, each doing the same damage as an unlucky lascannon, does 15 damage with WM support & Fortis, against a 4++ knight.
It's counter-intuitive, because of S7, but there you have it. I know I always bang on about our Levs, but they really do solve all problems, if you can keep them 1) in range, 2) with MoH buff and 3) out of melee...
grouchoben wrote: Lev with Fortis is my preferred anti-knight gun dread, funnily enough. 20+3 shots, hitting on 2s, wounding on 4s/3s, each doing the same damage as an unlucky lascannon, does 15 damage with WM support & Fortis, against a 4++ knight.
It's counter-intuitive, because of S7, but there you have it. I know I always bang on about our Levs, but they really do solve all problems, if you can keep them 1) in range, 2) with MoH buff and 3) out of melee...
Vs Guard, using the +1 W strat twice was great wounding T8 an 4s instead of 5s for my corvus or vet sqd. Would probably work on a dread. Really was hoping not to lean on Forgeworld, not a big fan.
My personal experience. I have always found DW play better with more troops (vet squads, with role efficient weapons and/or/plus Vanvets/termie/biker etc and/or if need teleport strat) than with vehicles, why I always suggest more vet squads (I would rather jack my tele sqauds with combi-plasma and get a captain than get a vehicle). Though squads always have had a few plebs with Storm shields, this is amplified with the reduced cost.
Exception is rapiers with quad launchers (still 85pts i think, they are pretty good if can get them to within 24" for anti-armor/heavy infantry and have some anti-infantry rest of the time)
But looking at vehicles I like the look of:
The new points cost of the Contemptor mortis dread now. With 2x Twin Auto Cannon (is 8 shots st7 -1AP 2D) is 148pts. 2x twin las is at 168pts. Degrading profile but has a built in 5+ inv. Something to look at anyway.
To the argument of TH or PF on a main character/forward pushing combat character, I will always take a TH (is it worth 12 points over a pf, I think so) the ability to do flat 3 dmge is a major boon to you and threat to the opponent. Backline characters not so much.
grouchoben wrote: Lev with Fortis is my preferred anti-knight gun dread, funnily enough. 20+3 shots, hitting on 2s, wounding on 4s/3s, each doing the same damage as an unlucky lascannon, does 15 damage with WM support & Fortis, against a 4++ knight.
It's counter-intuitive, because of S7, but there you have it. I know I always bang on about our Levs, but they really do solve all problems, if you can keep them 1) in range, 2) with MoH buff and 3) out of melee...
Really was hoping not to lean on Forgeworld, not a big fan.
If don't want to play Forgeworld, try plan an army total foot slogger (3x tele strat units) some other fast movers etc etc (depends on points level). Soon as I did that I found DW flourished (at the start of 8th I was trying to play the narrative of fast insertion this unit needs a transport etc was ok, then when codex dropped I thought... these are DW they can stealth into whatever already they are the elite...full foot slogger (tele strat some units)...best thing I did).
Suites my play style, maybe try that for you (I then added some of my vehicles back/forgeworld etc to try, always came back to full foot).
Full foot means combat squaded Vets/bikers/Vanvets squads, various mixed squads etc etc.
EDIT: I love consistent damage, it is a personal preference (I like combi-plasmas, TH's etc, anything that has a flat damage, I prefer consistent. Hence, I run a lot of combi-plasma etc).
Using vehicle is fun but my infantry lists always do best. I like to use the redemptor at times and teleport it. 11" charged a triarch stalker and some immortals the other day and punched their tin faces in after blasting apart a warrior squad he was screening with.
are Assassins single model characters? Or can I take 2 vindicare assassins? And what would be the best way to take some? Only by taking 3 in a vamguard detachment oraux detachments?
They are single model characters. Vinidicare's still at 80 points idk (I am gunna trial them as well I have 3 iterations of the model). I think you have to take 3 assassins as a vanguard (don't get +1CP) or if only want to take 1-2 have to pay the -1CP to take an auxiliary support).
Spectral Ceramite wrote: They are single model characters. Vinidicare's still at 80 points idk (I am gunna trial them as well I have 3 iterations of the model). I think you have to take 3 assassins as a vanguard (don't get +1CP) or if only want to take 1-2 have to pay the -1CP to take an auxiliary support).
Ok...the single model somehow breaks them for me...one vindicare isnt enough (or not reliable enough) for the things I wanted him to do as all important things have some sort healing in one form or another. Thanks for clarification!
Vindicares are probably the best sniper in the game and still not terribly great. If you want them, you need the three for redundancy.
In fact, all the Assassins require redundancy. A single Eversor will be brought down, but having to kill two more is firepower not directed at your Deathwatch.
Im still struggling a bit with AT. So far Ive found my favorite KillTeam loadouts.
Now I got the Leviathan Dread. Not only that he looks incredible he‘s also a beast of a weapons platform!
I have 2 VenDreads with LasCan and ML.
Im thinking about adding 2 Razorbacks with TwinLas OR a Repulsor to my collection.
The Repulsor would hold a Hellblaster Team (Tax Unit for the Lev).
Whats the current opinion on Predators? Ive read that they are subpar and one should just take more Razorbacks?
CA2018 failed in balancing Knights so what can be done to fight them? Bring a Knight ourselves? Would be possible too but since their codex dropped I detest them.
EDIT:
Ive found that a big weakness Knights have is melee thats why Im allying BA SmashCaptains but that costs almost all my CP.
Im still struggling a bit with AT. So far Ive found my favorite KillTeam loadouts.
Now I got the Leviathan Dread. Not only that he looks incredible he‘s also a beast of a weapons platform!
I have 2 VenDreads with LasCan and ML.
Im thinking about adding 2 Razorbacks with TwinLas OR a Repulsor to my collection.
The Repulsor would hold a Hellblaster Team (Tax Unit for the Lev).
Whats the current opinion on Predators? Ive read that they are subpar and one should just take more Razorbacks?
CA2018 failed in balancing Knights so what can be done to fight them? Bring a Knight ourselves? Would be possible too but since their codex dropped I detest them.
EDIT:
Ive found that a big weakness Knights have is melee thats why Im allying BA SmashCaptains but that costs almost all my CP.
well, deathwatch don't have access to Predators so that takes care of your problem
well, deathwatch don't have access to Predators so that takes care of your problem
They can take the forge world Deimos version (which can be recustomized into the vanilla variant).
Not really worth it IMO given how badly Predators are in the current meta. If you want Quad-Las, the Contemptor Mortis is the way to go. It's cheaper (180 vs 168), with a 2+ BS/WS and a 5++, but you lose 4 wounds.
well, deathwatch don't have access to Predators so that takes care of your problem
They can take the forge world Deimos version (which can be recustomized into the vanilla variant).
Not really worth it IMO given how badly Predators are in the current meta. If you want Quad-Las, the Contemptor Mortis is the way to go. It's cheaper (180 vs 168), with a 2+ BS/WS and a 5++, but you lose 4 wounds.
The 5++ probably goes further than the extra 4 wounds I would imagine.
ImPhaeronWeasel wrote: I would ally the Predators as answer to „Deathwatch can not take them“ but the Pred vs. Contemptor Dread comparison basically answered it for me.
Any tactics on what to do vs. Knights? (also pls. consider their 3++ vs shooting and possible screen)
You can cause them to fall back via charging them with Bikers. Since they can't walk over Bikers you can slowly push them back.
That's about it though. Killing them is very inefficient if you're going pure codex.
The 5++ probably goes further than the extra 4 wounds I would imagine.
Likely. Though...now that I'm looking at the wording, I think the Aegis would work on the Deimos (It has <CHAPTER> which becomes DEATHWATCH ), as well as possibly mission tactics?
12 attacks at 3+ gives 8 hits, 16/3 wounds, and 32/9 failed saves. That's 2-3 dead bikers a round.
If it means taking a Castellan in a soup list out of the fight for a turn or two though, it might well be worth it depending on the table.
The Castellan can walk back just over an inch and unload. Unless you get enough bikers around it that they can survive the stomps with enough models to tri-point the Castellan...
Castellan, it should be noted, gets only 6 hits, 4 wounds, 8/3 failed save. Worse WS.
If it's a Valiant, they have 10.5 hits, 3.5 wounds, maybe 1-2 go through. Plus miscellaneous hitting on 6s.
Castellan is a bit tougher, with sheer number of more powerful shots, but still not that big a deal to a Knight on overwatch.
5 attacks gets you 25/6 hits, 125/36 wounds punching right through their armor (unless they have Sainted Ion or Sanctuary) and doing 24 damage pretty reliably.
One-rounding a Questoris, easy. A Dominous... Little tougher. But soften it up a little and you should be good.
The other thing Ive seen is playing a Knight Lance...less dmg output but MUCH MUCH more survivable due to 3++ save in combat and the enemy only hitting on 6s...but this is very power game-ish at this point
ImPhaeronWeasel wrote: The other thing Ive seen is playing a Knight Lance...less dmg output but MUCH MUCH more survivable due to 3++ save in combat and the enemy only hitting on 6s...but this is very power game-ish at this point
Um... Is that FW? Because I have no idea how to achieve that with my Codex.
ImPhaeronWeasel wrote: The other thing Ive seen is playing a Knight Lance...less dmg output but MUCH MUCH more survivable due to 3++ save in combat and the enemy only hitting on 6s...but this is very power game-ish at this point
Um... Is that FW? Because I have no idea how to achieve that with my Codex.
Yeee Im sorry is off topic
FW Knights...
I guess the best way to stay PURE and have a chance vs. Knights is going for a Lev. with Dread support.
Another thing Ive read is charging a VanVets squad with HTH and use the +1 to wound strat on them to do 6dmg on 5+
JNAProductions wrote: Assassins are NOT unique characters. I think that's what was being asked.
You can take up to three of any Assassin, due to Rule of Three.
Yes this was the intension of the question. So I CAN take 2 PLUS aggressors in a Vanguard detachment (without the CP)?
1 Assassin is not enough, 2 would be pretty nice
No to THAT.
Due to the Battle Brothers rule, you cannot mix units who's only common Keyword is Imperium within a detachment.
But you could take, say, 2 Vindicares and a Callidus.
So that wasn't the intention of the question it was in fact about what you could take in a detachment. You can take 3 of each different type of assassin, just the rules of how to include them are how I stated before, pretty sure. But ye I am gunna trial 3 vinid's this weekend as well again now with reduced points cost. But for a sniper that hits and wound on 2's (for me they always miss )
____________________
KNIGHTS
In regards to taking out knights etc in a DW army. It all depends on what type of army you run, the missions you play and points level.
When I play at 1750-2k, I play against opponents with a knight a lot. For my type of army, because I run mostly mixed vet squads and a lot of storm shields (various shooting weapons depends on what I want their role to be), I just ignore them. I kill everything else viable (shoot the knights occasionally if no other viable target). It depends on the mission if need scoring units, how many other vehicles they have etc to my kill priority. Once most of the other stuff is dead, irrelevant or tied up, I focus on the knight.
If its a knight army with the loyal 32 etc. I kill the screen first (so I can get close to a knight if want and it kills a lot of their big objective secure units) and then plink them down while playing the objectives etc.I try take out hellverens first of the knights or those with high volume firepower (avenger gat etc). Try bracket big knights where I can (unless they are running Hawkshroud, then is focus down time). This is because I run mainly infantry and volume of fire is my biggest threat.
When you have enough invulnerable saves and most of your guys are 1w plus pretty much your entire army is objective secured, multi-damage and high AP doesn't matter much to you. Not that it's easy but it's not an army that I fear.
Totally different if run primaris or vehicles or a lot of vehicles etc etc. As I said at start: "It all depends on what type of army you run, the missions you play and points level".
A couple of days ago I had a mini 1k tourney and my second game was against a Knight army (2 Knights and one Armiger).
I played a Deathwatch battalion with 2 mixed Vet squads (Plasma, FragCanons and SS, in one team I had a Termi) and a BA patrol with Captain Smash.
We played the mission were you roll for an active obj. and on a 6 all obj. are active.
I had first turn and managed to kill his Gallant with the SmashCap (who did die too in the process). I could have gone for one more obj. as first turn I got the 6 so all obj. had been active. This was my first mistake.
2nd turn I rolled a 1 and dropped my Librarian there and my Vet Squad that tried to take out the Knight (did a couple of wounds to it but didnt manage to kill it). The armiger killed the scouts placed on a different obj. and the other Knight killed the biker/VenVat team.
3rd turn my other mixed squad managed to kill the armiger while staying on the obj. but the big knight killed my librarian so i didnt get the 2points for the obj.
4th turn I rolled a 1 again and his knight was standing on that obj. even though it was almost dead I could kill it (6wounds were left)
last turn (we played only to the 5th because of time) I rolled a 3 where my combat squaded Vet team was and he didnt manage to kill all 5 of them so we ultimately drew the game 11 - 11
Had I not lost the Bike Team in my furst round and would have been a bit luckier with the active obj. rolls I think I would have won that match.
But still I think if not for the smash cap I dont know how I would manage to deal with two knights just with a battalion of deathwatch in 1k points
Killing multiple knights is much less difficult than killing one knight, because without the invuln save turned up to 11, DW frag cannons are the ideal weapon for knight killing - S9, and you only lose out on 1AP. if your opponent has lots of knights, it's also nice because you'll pretty much be rerolling 1s to wound against his entire army. And if you've got a Lord of War as your Warlord (as almost all mostly-knight armies tend to) you can use both Malleus and Decapitation on the same target in a pinch.
the biggest struggle for deathwatch vs knights is getting them to commit their rotate ion without yourself having to commit your deep strikers to the target that's going to rotate on you. You have to play a bit of mindgames with that - I've been in a situation where my opponent had two big knights on the board, one with the 4++ trait and the other without, he could use Rotate ion to give both 4++ or give the one a 3++ and the other a 5++. I dropped a frag cannon team near the native 4++ one and a storm bolter team near the other, making him commit the rotate ion to protect against the frag cannons. Frag cannons did like 4 wounds total, but everything else in my army fired at the other guy and brought him down really quickly.
I agree with the scotsman, gives a good run down of possibilities at 1k point Knights or vs Knight armies in general (I think combi-plasma, using only plasma part is ideal (for massed fire power and points etc vs knights), but you always have atleast 1+ frag cannon per squad (depending on role, maybe not) so they are good as well, this is my personal preference. That is if you don't know that knights are the enemy, so gives versatility, if you do know than frags or totally different type army.
You also have to think from sounds of it that is your first game (against knights). It takes time to develop what you want and how to play, asking people what to do after 1 match? Maybe play a few more and find for yourself what you like. If that doesn't work... I could be wrong though maybe you have played a gak tonne and not done great, then this is the place to ask. Just saying so you find your own shtick first, before adopt other players perceptions.
Spectral Ceramite wrote: I agree with the scotsman, gives a good run down of possibilities at 1k points or vs Knight armies in general (I think combi-plasma, using only plasma part is ideal (for massed fire power and points etc), but you always have atleast 1 frag cannon per squad (depending on role, maybe not) so they are good as well) this is my personal preference. You also have to think from sounds of it that is your first game (against knights). It takes time to develop what you want and how to play, asking people what to do after 1 match? Maybe play a few more and find for yourself what you like. If that doesn't work...
In terms of probabilities I like S9 weapons like lascannons way more than I like S8 weapons, because if you can bump an attack to a 2+ (which we can do with our strats) and you're rerolling 1s, you get far more mileage out of that reroll 1 than you would with reroll 1s wounding on 3s or 4s.
Reroll 1 to wound if you wound on 4s: Adds 8.5% chance to wound
Reroll 1 to wound if you wound on 3s: adds 11.3% chance to wound
Reroll 1 to wound if you wound on 2s: Adds 14.2% chance to wound.
A full die shift is 16.7%, so to get full worth out of a 2cp doctrine stratagem I always want to be getting myself to 2s rerolling 1s if possible. The problem is, of course, that Deathwatch have pisspoor access to lascannons compared to other imperial factions, to get a really solid one, you want to have a quadlas mortis contemptor dreadnought, who I LOVE at 168 points. 28 over the twinlas/ML dread gets me 1 missile upgraded to a lascannon shot, an extra lascannon shot (there's 20 of your 28 points right there), 2 extra wounds and a 5+ invuln save. Delicious. and honestly not that hard to convert out of the plastic contemptor kit, because you can quite easily take any weapon designed to be a sponson (my bit of choice would be an admech ironstrider cognis twin lascannon, the smallest paired lascannon bit out there and easily available on ebay for ~5$ because it's almost always an extra in the kit that most people build as the lancer variant)
Spectral Ceramite wrote: I agree with the scotsman, gives a good run down of possibilities at 1k points or vs Knight armies in general (I think combi-plasma, using only plasma part is ideal (for massed fire power and points etc), but you always have atleast 1 frag cannon per squad (depending on role, maybe not) so they are good as well) this is my personal preference. You also have to think from sounds of it that is your first game (against knights). It takes time to develop what you want and how to play, asking people what to do after 1 match? Maybe play a few more and find for yourself what you like. If that doesn't work...
In terms of probabilities I like S9 weapons like lascannons way more than I like S8 weapons, because if you can bump an attack to a 2+ (which we can do with our strats) and you're rerolling 1s, you get far more mileage out of that reroll 1 than you would with reroll 1s wounding on 3s or 4s.
Reroll 1 to wound if you wound on 4s: Adds 8.5% chance to wound
Reroll 1 to wound if you wound on 3s: adds 11.3% chance to wound
Reroll 1 to wound if you wound on 2s: Adds 14.2% chance to wound.
A full die shift is 16.7%, so to get full worth out of a 2cp doctrine stratagem I always want to be getting myself to 2s rerolling 1s if possible. The problem is, of course, that Deathwatch have pisspoor access to lascannons compared to other imperial factions, to get a really solid one, you want to have a quadlas mortis contemptor dreadnought, who I LOVE at 168 points. 28 over the twinlas/ML dread gets me 1 missile upgraded to a lascannon shot, an extra lascannon shot (there's 20 of your 28 points right there), 2 extra wounds and a 5+ invuln save. Delicious. and honestly not that hard to convert out of the plastic contemptor kit, because you can quite easily take any weapon designed to be a sponson (my bit of choice would be an admech ironstrider cognis twin lascannon, the smallest paired lascannon bit out there and easily available on ebay for ~5$ because it's almost always an extra in the kit that most people build as the lancer variant)
I mentioned the Contemptor Mortis previous and I think looks good, but each to own.
Math is awesome (I probably edited after posted this) and yes S9 is way better at kill high toughness. I like combi-plasma cause of the ability to hit and damage high toughness targets and do multiple wounds or be good at hoard killing on others as well especially with SIA at range not 8" or under.
The new points cost of the Contemptor mortis dread now. With 2x Twin Auto Cannon (is 8 shots st7 -1AP 2D) is 148pts. 2x twin las is at 168pts. Degrading profile but has a built in 5+ inv. Something to look at anyway.
I think Combi-Plasma vets are worth a look when thinking about equipping your vets with anti heavy gear.
costs 8 more than a storm bolter.
When on "spray and pray" mode, it does 0.1 less damage on average to GEQ than that storm bolter.
Assuming in range of a captain aura, it enables the vet to do .067 damage per point versus standard T7 3+ vehicles and .037 damage per point versus T8 3+ 5++. Cons: Needs to deep strike, needs to have captain aura to minimise risk of self-explodination, countered by - to hits. Pros: best dpp vs standard tanks, whole squad can take them since they can have SS's so you don't have to screen them much.
Compare to: Frag cannon, .03 dpp vs knights, .044 dpp vs vehicles. Cons: needs to be deep struck, needs to be screened. Pros: Excellent anti-horde or overwatch if it survives to a second turn/gets charged within 8".
Missile launcher, .026 dpp vs knights, .034 vs vehicles. Cons: Low DPP compared to alternative, needs to be screened. Pros: Long range meaning doesn't need deep strike, Troop Choice with obsec filling up sweet battalions, Flakk Missile/Hellfire Shell stratagem if you have a HB in the same squad.
if you want to look at a nonvet alternative, a mortis castellan in range of the same captain aura causes .035 dpp vs knights and .045 dpp vs vehicles. Cons: Absorbs anti-vehicle fire, meaning you don't want to take it with a purely veteran betastrike style list, stats degrade. Pros: Sits in the back with no need to DS, native 5++, good at using the malleus strat.
combi-plas seems like a pretty nifty option, pretty clearly outclasses all other combi and special options, comes in both the DWvets kit and the Sternguard kit (which I would definitely use to get storm bolters/extra bolters with sights and straps to use as stalkers/missile launchers).
_Ness wrote: quick question: can i equip my veterans with stormbolter AND chainsword?
1d4chan suggests this loadout, but battlescribe responds with an error.
happy holidays!
Yeah, that seems fine.
The storm bolter is in the "one item can be chosen from the following list" section, and the chainsword is in the "up to two items can be chosen from the following list" section. So you can have them together.
Hey all, I'm pretty new to Deathwatch, still in the 'buying stuff' phase and making lists to try to come up with a good all-comers set to buy toward.
I read through this whole thread to get up to date on the latest thoughts on the army and had a couple questions.
1) thoughts on Fortis teams post-CA? Less on actual team builds, mainly more curious if pure vet teams seem like the better setup right now. Going pure vet squads eliminates a lot of issues with multi wound weapons, and it's pretty easy to essentially have your squads with 2+ 3++ with mixed squad shenanigans. Whereas Fortis have more wounds but no invulns. If Aggressors and inceptors had SIA that would be another story (and probably wildly overpowered), but I'm really leaning toward just vet squads.
2) for HQs I always seem to be defaulting to a WM and a smash WC at minimum. I keep trying to convince myself to take a jump Libby, but his powers aren't really wowwing me (especially when allying in Sisters for anti-psychic duties), so I usually throw in another jump cap or even a Termie cap. What do you guys think about 3rd HQ picks, and is there something I'm missing.
Just FYI this is the list I'm working with, good chance I'll drop the Fortis for more Vet teams and/or some Assassin's though.
8 Auto Bolt Rifle Intercessors, Aggressor, Inceptor
2 Vets SS/SB, 2 Vets SB/CS, 3 Vets Frag Cannon, 1 Vet Infernus HB, VV with 2 BP, Terminator power axe/SB
Vanguard:
Venerable Chaplain Dread TLC, Fist with Heavy Flamer
Apothecary
Venerable dread TLC and fist/SB
Venerable dread TLC and fist/SB
Supreme Command:
Deathwatch Librarian w/ JP, Force Sword, SB
Dark Angel Librarian w/ JP, Force Axe
Rune Priest on bike w/ Axe, SB, Rune Armor
The Librarians take the -1 to hit powers and other based on matchup. I prefer staying mono faction but this seems fluffy still since DW would have psykers from all other Chapters anyways. Gives me the anti-tank I was looking for, plus I love dreads, and isn't WAAC but still strong which fits my local meta.
I am gonna start working on more of a tournament list as well and see if I can make it work without taking a Castellan... I think running mostly infantry is the way to do that.
Creeping Dementia wrote: Hey all, I'm pretty new to Deathwatch, still in the 'buying stuff' phase and making lists to try to come up with a good all-comers set to buy toward.
I read through this whole thread to get up to date on the latest thoughts on the army and had a couple questions.
1) thoughts on Fortis teams post-CA? Less on actual team builds, mainly more curious if pure vet teams seem like the better setup right now. Going pure vet squads eliminates a lot of issues with multi wound weapons, and it's pretty easy to essentially have your squads with 2+ 3++ with mixed squad shenanigans. Whereas Fortis have more wounds but no invulns. If Aggressors and inceptors had SIA that would be another story (and probably wildly overpowered), but I'm really leaning toward just vet squads.
2) for HQs I always seem to be defaulting to a WM and a smash WC at minimum. I keep trying to convince myself to take a jump Libby, but his powers aren't really wowwing me (especially when allying in Sisters for anti-psychic duties), so I usually throw in another jump cap or even a Termie cap. What do you guys think about 3rd HQ picks, and is there something I'm missing.
Just FYI this is the list I'm working with, good chance I'll drop the Fortis for more Vet teams and/or some Assassin's though.
1) There's very little reason to bring Primaris if you're looking for the most competitive builds. Every mini marine equivalent is better in every way.
But the Primaris squads are pretty fun, and it's not like they're bad - they're just worse than the better, cheaper, higher damage, more resilient Veteran teams.
2) I still love Librarians for their buff potential and mortal wound output, so it's always my third choice.
What about a repulsor to avoid the struggle with fortis teams? seems like a pretty decent deal at about 300 points for the quadlas loadout, decent defenses, Fly, keeps your Fortis team from getting alphastruck by plasma/knight gatling cannons/dissies. Too much of a Castellan/Doom magnet?
Other option is obviously deep striking the fortis team right into range, since all their weapons don't particularly care about moving/shooting. Only problem there is I definitely prefer the alternative of SS-toting vets to fortis teams, since I tend to see lists heavily stacked with anti elite weapons that fall hilariously flat against mass storm shields more than I see them stacked with massive numbers of heavy dakka weapons.
2W 3+ with a points discount vs 1W 3++ I'd take all day every day the 3++ even if it didn't come with extra firepower...which it does.
Creeping Dementia wrote: Hey all, I'm pretty new to Deathwatch, still in the 'buying stuff' phase and making lists to try to come up with a good all-comers set to buy toward.
I read through this whole thread to get up to date on the latest thoughts on the army and had a couple questions.
1) thoughts on Fortis teams post-CA? Less on actual team builds, mainly more curious if pure vet teams seem like the better setup right now. Going pure vet squads eliminates a lot of issues with multi wound weapons, and it's pretty easy to essentially have your squads with 2+ 3++ with mixed squad shenanigans. Whereas Fortis have more wounds but no invulns. If Aggressors and inceptors had SIA that would be another story (and probably wildly overpowered), but I'm really leaning toward just vet squads.
2) for HQs I always seem to be defaulting to a WM and a smash WC at minimum. I keep trying to convince myself to take a jump Libby, but his powers aren't really wowwing me (especially when allying in Sisters for anti-psychic duties), so I usually throw in another jump cap or even a Termie cap. What do you guys think about 3rd HQ picks, and is there something I'm missing.
Just FYI this is the list I'm working with, good chance I'll drop the Fortis for more Vet teams and/or some Assassin's though.
1) There's very little reason to bring Primaris if you're looking for the most competitive builds. Every mini marine equivalent is better in every way.
But the Primaris squads are pretty fun, and it's not like they're bad - they're just worse than the better, cheaper, higher damage, more resilient Veteran teams.
2) I still love Librarians for their buff potential and mortal wound output, so it's always my third choice.
I think we can still make the argument that the Auto version with Aggressors are still cool due to natural speed, but that's about it.
the_scotsman wrote:What about a repulsor to avoid the struggle with fortis teams? seems like a pretty decent deal at about 300 points for the quadlas loadout, decent defenses, Fly, keeps your Fortis team from getting alphastruck by plasma/knight gatling cannons/dissies. Too much of a Castellan/Doom magnet?
Other option is obviously deep striking the fortis team right into range, since all their weapons don't particularly care about moving/shooting. Only problem there is I definitely prefer the alternative of SS-toting vets to fortis teams, since I tend to see lists heavily stacked with anti elite weapons that fall hilariously flat against mass storm shields more than I see them stacked with massive numbers of heavy dakka weapons.
2W 3+ with a points discount vs 1W 3++ I'd take all day every day the 3++ even if it didn't come with extra firepower...which it does.
A pity the Repulsor is only 10 slots. Also a pity the Covus can't carry Primaris. Many of the best Fortis Kill Teams can't go full size if they want mobility from a transport, which is probably why the auto bolt rifle and aggressor builds are still so popular.
Even the Heltercessor teams with Hellblasters and an Inceptor can be pretty easily approximated with Veterans by using combi-plasma and storm shields, coming in cheaper and more durable. And deadlier per point. And more flexible. They're just all around superior.
I think we can still make the argument that the Auto version with Aggressors are still cool due to natural speed, but that's about it.
Sure, and that's actually super fun, but Veterans even have better mobility options in transports, which in turn makes them even more durable and mobile. The Repulsor is pretty great, but then the auto bolt rifle mobility seems kind of wasted, no? Lots of mobility needed in the new missions, and the Repulsor looks pretty powerful for Primaris there, but you're probably better off with Veterans since they actually have the transports to carry popular KT builds.
Primaris DW are still powerful and fun. There was always a gap between the two, and that gap had Veterans a tad more powerful than Intercessors prior to CA - but post CA, that gap got wider, and did so entirely in favour of mini-marines. I don't think it was entirely intentional, though - just like I don't think the storm bolter meta was the design intention here either.
the_scotsman wrote:What about a repulsor to avoid the struggle with fortis teams? seems like a pretty decent deal at about 300 points for the quadlas loadout, decent defenses, Fly, keeps your Fortis team from getting alphastruck by plasma/knight gatling cannons/dissies. Too much of a Castellan/Doom magnet?
Other option is obviously deep striking the fortis team right into range, since all their weapons don't particularly care about moving/shooting. Only problem there is I definitely prefer the alternative of SS-toting vets to fortis teams, since I tend to see lists heavily stacked with anti elite weapons that fall hilariously flat against mass storm shields more than I see them stacked with massive numbers of heavy dakka weapons.
2W 3+ with a points discount vs 1W 3++ I'd take all day every day the 3++ even if it didn't come with extra firepower...which it does.
A pity the Repulsor is only 10 slots. Also a pity the Covus can't carry Primaris. Many of the best Fortis Kill Teams can't go full size if they want mobility from a transport, which is probably why the auto bolt rifle and aggressor builds are still so popular.
Even the Heltercessor teams with Hellblasters and an Inceptor can be pretty easily approximated with Veterans by using combi-plasma and storm shields, coming in cheaper and more durable. And deadlier per point. And more flexible. They're just all around superior.
I think we can still make the argument that the Auto version with Aggressors are still cool due to natural speed, but that's about it.
Sure, and that's actually super fun, but Veterans even have better mobility options in transports, which in turn makes them even more durable and mobile. The Repulsor is pretty great, but then the auto bolt rifle mobility seems kind of wasted, no? Lots of mobility needed in the new missions, and the Repulsor looks pretty powerful for Primaris there, but you're probably better off with Veterans since they actually have the transports to carry popular KT builds.
Primaris DW are still powerful and fun. There was always a gap between the two, and that gap had Veterans a tad more powerful than Intercessors prior to CA - but post CA, that gap got wider, and did so entirely in favour of mini-marines. I don't think it was entirely intentional, though - just like I don't think the storm bolter meta was the design intention here either.
Those transports cost a hefty amount of points though. You're paying at minimum 74 for the Rhino, after all.
Another thing worth mentioning is that Primaris are still more durable to MW. My local meta has 2 players that run Smite Spam Thousand Sons lists and Intercessors are the cheapest soak we have for that. Also Aggressors still put out more anti-infantry fire for clearing chaff and hordes if you can position them where they don't need to move. That's why i still bring one unit of Intercessors with 4 aggressors and an Inceptor to sit mid-field and scare away other stuff or soak up fire. If I run double battalion I still run two other squads with 5 intercessors and 5 Hellblasters because I don't have enough vets to run more yet
Those transports cost a hefty amount of points though. You're paying at minimum 74 for the Rhino, after all.
74 points versus 250 for the cheapest Repulsor (which isn't even all that shooty when you strip it down that much), so it's not even close.
I love my Primaris - I will continue with them for now (while I build up my other project, Crimson Fists), but if GW actually does have plans to replace old marines with Primaris, then they keep taking steps away from that as far as DW is concerned. Hooray for the mini marine brethren and those who love them.
Now, that beings aid, if the Veteran Intercessor strats eventually work on DW...
Well, now that would definitely make things interesting...
+1 A for an Intergressor unit with a power fist Sgt? That's at least 19 power fist attacks - and pop Liberators to make every unmodified hit roll of 6 equals two hits. Won't even need the Inceptor to fall back and shoot - not much will withstand that.
4 shots of SIA -1 AP bolt rifles too? SIA Storm Bolters are amazing, so those would be pretty enticing. Sniper stalker bolt rifles that wound on 2s? Yes, please.
Grey Shield warlord trait is super fluffy for DW, that's for sure.
Massive CP overhead, though - and most of the battle reps I've seen regarding this particular detachment feel like it's pretty underwhelming, but if anybody could make an impact with them it would be DW. Still, could be fun...but alas, I doubt it'll come to pass. I imagine they'll make it usable on BA, DA, SW but not DW.
FWIW, 5x combi-plas/SS and 5x SB/SS vets are slightly more expensive than 5x hellblasters and 5x intercessors, but I figure you'd get much more mileage out of double the shots than you would out of longer range and -1AP, and you'd almost certainly do better with the whole squad at a 3++ than the whole squad at W2.
I do think the Repulsor is well worth it by itself, tbh - a quadlas platform with POtMS, Fly, T8 and 16W with half-decent anti-horde capabilities is pretty good on its own.
By contrast, Rhinos pretty much only exist to cart around your dudes. And I am not convinced after CA/codex that razors are really worth a second look as a fire support platform. Veterans are so durable on foot that you almost always want them just deep striking right where they want to be or, dare I say it, drop podding.
When I run DW in a soup list (usually with Admech going stygies for an army that's maximally defensive - post CA Breacher servitors are actually tanky as all get out) I usually deep strike absolutely all my basic shooting units. If I were playing a casual game I'd bring one squad with melee gear and fly them in a corvus.
the_scotsman wrote: FWIW, 5x combi-plas/SS and 5x SB/SS vets are slightly more expensive than 5x hellblasters and 5x intercessors, but I figure you'd get much more mileage out of double the shots than you would out of longer range and -1AP, and you'd almost certainly do better with the whole squad at a 3++ than the whole squad at W2.
It really comes down to what the meta for your area is. My LGS is pretty horde heavy (Fire Warrior mobs, Orks, Swarm Nids, Kabalite Venom spam, etc), so having a layer of 20W 3+ units I can drop in to run as distraction carnifexes between the enemy hordes and my own real heavy hitters is very much worth it. Bonus points as most of the folks I play with dont have much in the way of Invuln saves, so the AP on every gun I point downrange from my Fortis boys scares the crap out of pretty much anything and everything on the board.
In the bleeding edge competitive arena I dont really dispute that SS Vets are the way to go post-CA, but there's still a viable place for Primaris in less optimized games.
the_scotsman wrote: FWIW, 5x combi-plas/SS and 5x SB/SS vets are slightly more expensive than 5x hellblasters and 5x intercessors, but I figure you'd get much more mileage out of double the shots than you would out of longer range and -1AP, and you'd almost certainly do better with the whole squad at a 3++ than the whole squad at W2.
It really comes down to what the meta for your area is. My LGS is pretty horde heavy (Fire Warrior mobs, Orks, Swarm Nids, Kabalite Venom spam, etc), so having a layer of 20W 3+ units I can drop in to run as distraction carnifexes between the enemy hordes and my own real heavy hitters is very much worth it. Bonus points as most of the folks I play with dont have much in the way of Invuln saves, so the AP on every gun I point downrange from my Fortis boys scares the crap out of pretty much anything and everything on the board.
In the bleeding edge competitive arena I dont really dispute that SS Vets are the way to go post-CA, but there's still a viable place for Primaris in less optimized games.
Yes it is worth noting that these squads are VERY COMPARABLE and in real-world money terms one unit is an unholy, expensive bitch to put together that will cost you a minimum of 90$ just for the bodies and then you'll need to get 3x combi-plasmas, 5x storm bolters, and 6x storm shields off bits sellers to complete it. On the other hand, the primaris equivalent will cost, let's see...40$ total to get in Dark Imperium squad form off ebay. Also, if you had me rate the probability of Storm Shield+Storm Bolter Veterans sticking around through the editions vs Intercessors with basic bolt rifles.....?
If you aren't in a competitve meta, it aint worth 50$+probably 40$ minimum of bits to get 35% more firepower against GEQ the turn you come down in your squad that's going to be mostly anti-tank.
the_scotsman wrote: FWIW, 5x combi-plas/SS and 5x SB/SS vets are slightly more expensive than 5x hellblasters and 5x intercessors, but I figure you'd get much more mileage out of double the shots than you would out of longer range and -1AP, and you'd almost certainly do better with the whole squad at a 3++ than the whole squad at W2.
It really comes down to what the meta for your area is. My LGS is pretty horde heavy (Fire Warrior mobs, Orks, Swarm Nids, Kabalite Venom spam, etc), so having a layer of 20W 3+ units I can drop in to run as distraction carnifexes between the enemy hordes and my own real heavy hitters is very much worth it. Bonus points as most of the folks I play with dont have much in the way of Invuln saves, so the AP on every gun I point downrange from my Fortis boys scares the crap out of pretty much anything and everything on the board.
In the bleeding edge competitive arena I dont really dispute that SS Vets are the way to go post-CA, but there's still a viable place for Primaris in less optimized games.
Yes it is worth noting that these squads are VERY COMPARABLE and in real-world money terms one unit is an unholy, expensive bitch to put together that will cost you a minimum of 90$ just for the bodies and then you'll need to get 3x combi-plasmas, 5x storm bolters, and 6x storm shields off bits sellers to complete it. On the other hand, the primaris equivalent will cost, let's see...40$ total to get in Dark Imperium squad form off ebay. Also, if you had me rate the probability of Storm Shield+Storm Bolter Veterans sticking around through the editions vs Intercessors with basic bolt rifles.....?
If you aren't in a competitve meta, it aint worth 50$+probably 40$ minimum of bits to get 35% more firepower against GEQ the turn you come down in your squad that's going to be mostly anti-tank.
It is funny how the out of game logistics has a very real impact on the the game in actual practice.
I'm definitely picking up some blue stuff to start making copies of hard to find bitz like DW storm shields, though I've had a lot of luck on local FB groups for storm bolters.
the_scotsman wrote: FWIW, 5x combi-plas/SS and 5x SB/SS vets are slightly more expensive than 5x hellblasters and 5x intercessors, but I figure you'd get much more mileage out of double the shots than you would out of longer range and -1AP, and you'd almost certainly do better with the whole squad at a 3++ than the whole squad at W2.
It really comes down to what the meta for your area is. My LGS is pretty horde heavy (Fire Warrior mobs, Orks, Swarm Nids, Kabalite Venom spam, etc), so having a layer of 20W 3+ units I can drop in to run as distraction carnifexes between the enemy hordes and my own real heavy hitters is very much worth it. Bonus points as most of the folks I play with dont have much in the way of Invuln saves, so the AP on every gun I point downrange from my Fortis boys scares the crap out of pretty much anything and everything on the board.
In the bleeding edge competitive arena I dont really dispute that SS Vets are the way to go post-CA, but there's still a viable place for Primaris in less optimized games.
Yes it is worth noting that these squads are VERY COMPARABLE and in real-world money terms one unit is an unholy, expensive bitch to put together that will cost you a minimum of 90$ just for the bodies and then you'll need to get 3x combi-plasmas, 5x storm bolters, and 6x storm shields off bits sellers to complete it. On the other hand, the primaris equivalent will cost, let's see...40$ total to get in Dark Imperium squad form off ebay. Also, if you had me rate the probability of Storm Shield+Storm Bolter Veterans sticking around through the editions vs Intercessors with basic bolt rifles.....?
If you aren't in a competitve meta, it aint worth 50$+probably 40$ minimum of bits to get 35% more firepower against GEQ the turn you come down in your squad that's going to be mostly anti-tank.
It is funny how the out of game logistics has a very real impact on the the game in actual practice.
I'm definitely picking up some blue stuff to start making copies of hard to find bitz like DW storm shields, though I've had a lot of luck on local FB groups for storm bolters.
Of course. Why do you think I made my own Chapter and create a dozen or so characters to represent several different Marine HQ units?
Hey guys I want to start a new faction and after some deliberation I want to start Deathwatch. I don't have any Astartes army, but I have a large collection of Orks, Drukhari and Harlequins. I wanted an army that wouldn't have a high model count like the others but were pretty elite. Just wondering where to start. Absolutely love the look of the veteran squads.
Elfric wrote: Hey guys I want to start a new faction and after some deliberation I want to start Deathwatch. I don't have any Astartes army, but I have a large collection of Orks, Drukhari and Harlequins. I wanted an army that wouldn't have a high model count like the others but were pretty elite. Just wondering where to start. Absolutely love the look of the veteran squads.
I'm kind of in the same boat. Basically the main categories of units in Deathwatch that matter are 1) Veteran Kill teams, 2) Fortis Kill teams aka Primaris, 3) and Dreadnaughts. There are many many combinations and effective set ups of all three choices, a combination of which make up more Deathwatch lists.
It's entirely possible to make an army just out of Vet teams or Fortis teams, +/- Dreads, and a couple HQs. You can get a huge variation of units just depending on how you equip stuff and models you pick.
For purchasing, you'll want multiple Deathwatch boxes, and likely some Vanguard vets, Terminators, Bikes. Also an assortment of Primaris plus some Deathwatch upgrade kits. Of course start first with the Codex and start building some lists to see what you want.
Elfric wrote: Hey guys I want to start a new faction and after some deliberation I want to start Deathwatch. I don't have any Astartes army, but I have a large collection of Orks, Drukhari and Harlequins. I wanted an army that wouldn't have a high model count like the others but were pretty elite. Just wondering where to start. Absolutely love the look of the veteran squads.
I'm kind of in the same boat. Basically the main categories of units in Deathwatch that matter are 1) Veteran Kill teams, 2) Fortis Kill teams aka Primaris, 3) and Dreadnaughts. There are many many combinations and effective set ups of all three choices, a combination of which make up more Deathwatch lists.
It's entirely possible to make an army just out of Vet teams or Fortis teams, +/- Dreads, and a couple HQs. You can get a huge variation of units just depending on how you equip stuff and models you pick.
For purchasing, you'll want multiple Deathwatch boxes, and likely some Vanguard vets, Terminators, Bikes. Also an assortment of Primaris plus some Deathwatch upgrade kits. Of course start first with the Codex and start building some lists to see what you want.
Thanks dude, that's really helpful. I like the idea of several squads of kill teams and dreads
The Start Collecting is brilliant. I'd get two of those. Can convert the second Artemis easily. After that just peruse this thread the stars of the book are pretty well established.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I'd avoid Artemis. Sure the grenade is a neat trick but that's it.
Well, if we're suggesting they start with a Veteran Kill Team box rather than the suggestion to hunt through bits sites for the actual meta worthy builds, then we're already giving them advice for a less efficient build. Might as well double down on that and throw Artemis into it too for fun lol
Elfric wrote: Hey guys I want to start a new faction and after some deliberation I want to start Deathwatch. I don't have any Astartes army, but I have a large collection of Orks, Drukhari and Harlequins. I wanted an army that wouldn't have a high model count like the others but were pretty elite. Just wondering where to start. Absolutely love the look of the veteran squads.
Well good, because I'd start there.
I guess the first question I'd have is: Do you want to be super competitive tournament-tier, or are you more interested in mid level play, which opens up your options considerably?
A guideline I'd have for super competitive play would be:
-Start with a CP-generating minimum detachment of allies, either Admech or Guard (I use Admech with the -1 to hit trait)
-Add in a Battalion of Deathwatch veterans. Focus heavily on Storm Bolters, Storm Shields, Combi-Plasmas, and Frag Cannons. I would plan on deep striking the three troop choices of the battalion and at least one of the HQs (I usually take a Terminator Captain)
-For your long range anti tank Dreadnoughts of the Venerable and Mortis Contemptor variety seem to be the best option for Deathwatch.
If you're going for a less competitive deathwatch setup you could bring in the flyer and build a few punchy dudes (or just put your frag cannons in there), bring some primaris marines, maybe some rhinos or razors for your vets, and go easier on the bits.
if I were building a competitive DW list from the ground up I'd be buying the following:
Start Collecting: Deathwatch
Squad Cassius Box from DW:O
Either a second Dreadnought kit, or if you fancy converting it, the plastic Contemptor Dreadnought
Ebay bits purchase a set of Storm Bolters (just get the arms from the terminator kit)
Possibly ebay some Storm Shields from some kit
This buy gives you 2 combi-plasmas, 2 storm shields, 2 Vanguard Veterans (you most likely will have to convert one to ditch the lightning claws) one bike (gets you a telehomer) one Terminator (Swap his Heavy Flamer for the Combi-Melta off the Iron hand marine).
5 storm shields (if you take the bit off the Squad Cassius Biker)
3 combi-plasmas (if you convert an additional combi-plasma from the squad cassius dark angel)
3 Frag Cannons
So the biggest thing you want is probably more storm bolters, and more storm shields. If you want to go super hard, ebay 10 of the former and 5 of the latter. Your venerable dreadnought will come with 1 storm bolter. The only models that are pure "conversions needed" in my opinion are Cassius, Artemis, plasma pistol/power sword guy and the libby, but all of them are in pretty open poses so converting comes easy. Plus you don't need any DW upgrade kits, and just the SC box and KTC box puts you well over 1000pts.
My conversion advice would be:
Cut Lightning Claws, Power swords, combi-flamer off artemis, bolt pistol hands off libby and cassius, maul off cassius. cut chainsword off space wolf.
Give both bolt pistols to the lightning claw vanvet. secret agent raven guard vanvet reporting for duty!
give cassius the chainsword and a regular bolter. Hello vanilla captain McDreadnoughtsitter!
errybody else gets ebayed SS/SBs.
Dont discount one or two 5-man sniper teams with Stalker Boltguns and 1 or 2 missile launchers for backline duty. It's not the glorious frag cannon and stormbolter SIA charge, but the capacity to reach out and touch pretty much anything on the table from a decent perch (preferably in cover for that sweet sweet 2+/3++ defensive profile) isnt to be underestimated.
Sterling191 wrote: Dont discount one or two 5-man sniper teams with Stalker Boltguns and 1 or 2 missile launchers for backline duty. It's not the glorious frag cannon and stormbolter SIA charge, but the capacity to reach out and touch pretty much anything on the table from a decent perch (preferably in cover for that sweet sweet 2+/3++ defensive profile) isnt to be underestimated.
With the price cut on the CML, it might even be worth it to add one Terminator to those squads so that you can better tank certain weapons coming their way. Otherwise the combat squad with 4 Bikers and a Vanguard is still superb to me.
Sterling191 wrote: Dont discount one or two 5-man sniper teams with Stalker Boltguns and 1 or 2 missile launchers for backline duty. It's not the glorious frag cannon and stormbolter SIA charge, but the capacity to reach out and touch pretty much anything on the table from a decent perch (preferably in cover for that sweet sweet 2+/3++ defensive profile) isnt to be underestimated.
That is also not a bad unit, but not something you get out of the box with 2 vet boxes. As you expand the army, I would definitely consider a Sternguard box (their SIA boltguns with the straps and sights are pretty identical looking to Stalkers) and you get a combi-plas and 2 SBs out of the deal.
Were I to go full pure deathwatch, I would definitely bring some backfield campers.
If I wanted to make a semi-casual semi-competitive pure deathwatch force, it would be something like:
Termie Captain for the droppers
Regular captain for the backfield
Foot chaplain for the roflplane
Libby for the roflplane
3x Dropper vets with 1 vanvet each and 1 biker in one (for the homer). One with some combiplasmas, one with all storm bolters, one with frag cannons.
2 backfield camper vet squads with Stalker Boltguns/SS's and maybe missile termies
melee kill team with some for-fun gear
Corvus for the melee team+libby+Chap
2-3 BS2+ dreads armed with antitank gear
That kind of a build lets you put all the different classic marine units on the table, lets you use the special deathwatch plane, have a variety of different model builds/configurations and make use of most of the fun deathwatch toys while still being relatively efficient and good at playing the game. If you're smart with your kit buying, you'll most likely only need to ebay a few storm shields/storm bolters for your troops.
With the price cut on the CML, it might even be worth it to add one Terminator to those squads so that you can better tank certain weapons coming their way. Otherwise the combat squad with 4 Bikers and a Vanguard is still superb to me.
I personally avoid termies in my stalker teams. Costwise it's not really efficient as the CM is about as much as the rest of the squad combined (~70 points IIRC). If theyre taking small arms fire they're generally at longer range and not in a volume thats significant enough to warrant the termie durability. Plus if they're drawing fire from primary teams, be they SB/Frag, Plasma, or Dreads it's a net win IMO.
That is also not a bad unit, but not something you get out of the box with 2 vet boxes. As you expand the army, I would definitely consider a Sternguard box (their SIA boltguns with the straps and sights are pretty identical looking to Stalkers) and you get a combi-plas and 2 SBs out of the deal.
Alternatively, a box of scouts is the perfect starting point for conversions for stalker teams. Not pure WYSIWYG straight off the sprue, but a little creativity and kit bashing takes care of the rest.
If I wanted to make a semi-casual semi-competitive pure deathwatch force, it would be something like:
Termie Captain for the droppers
Regular captain for the backfield
Foot chaplain for the roflplane
Libby for the roflplane
3x Dropper vets with 1 vanvet each and 1 biker in one (for the homer). One with some combiplasmas, one with all storm bolters, one with frag cannons.
2 backfield camper vet squads with Stalker Boltguns/SS's and maybe missile termies
melee kill team with some for-fun gear
Corvus for the melee team+libby+Chap
2-3 BS2+ dreads armed with antitank gear
That kind of a build lets you put all the different classic marine units on the table, lets you use the special deathwatch plane, have a variety of different model builds/configurations and make use of most of the fun deathwatch toys while still being relatively efficient and good at playing the game. If you're smart with your kit buying, you'll most likely only need to ebay a few storm shields/storm bolters for your troops.
My current "funsies but somewhat serious" pure DW list is the following:
1x Jump cappy
1x Aegis cappy
2x Fortis Interblaster fire teams (5x Ints, 5x Hellblasters)
1x Fortis bully squad (5x ABR Ints, 1x Agg, 2x Rievers)
3x Vet teams (3x SBR/SS, 2x ML, 3x Bike, 2x BP/SS VanVets)
3x ML/LC VanVets.
Dreads with the camping Cappy (for the 5++) serve as the core base of fire supported by the three Stalker squads. The ComSquaded Bikes zoom upfield to harass and deal with objectives, and the Plasma boys deepstrike via strat to do that voodoo that they do. Bully squad is flexible, and can either drop in via telly or just hoof it to support the bikes.
It'll struggle against meta lists for sure (massed T8s are tough to crack with only three TwinLas) but in a very horde heavy meta it holds its own pretty respectably without being too FotM.
Elfric wrote: Hey guys I want to start a new faction and after some deliberation I want to start Deathwatch. I don't have any Astartes army, but I have a large collection of Orks, Drukhari and Harlequins. I wanted an army that wouldn't have a high model count like the others but were pretty elite. Just wondering where to start. Absolutely love the look of the veteran squads.
Well good, because I'd start there.
I guess the first question I'd have is: Do you want to be super competitive tournament-tier, or are you more interested in mid level play, which opens up your options considerably?
A guideline I'd have for super competitive play would be:
-Start with a CP-generating minimum detachment of allies, either Admech or Guard (I use Admech with the -1 to hit trait)
-Add in a Battalion of Deathwatch veterans. Focus heavily on Storm Bolters, Storm Shields, Combi-Plasmas, and Frag Cannons. I would plan on deep striking the three troop choices of the battalion and at least one of the HQs (I usually take a Terminator Captain)
-For your long range anti tank Dreadnoughts of the Venerable and Mortis Contemptor variety seem to be the best option for Deathwatch.
If you're going for a less competitive deathwatch setup you could bring in the flyer and build a few punchy dudes (or just put your frag cannons in there), bring some primaris marines, maybe some rhinos or razors for your vets, and go easier on the bits.
if I were building a competitive DW list from the ground up I'd be buying the following:
Start Collecting: Deathwatch
Squad Cassius Box from DW:O
Either a second Dreadnought kit, or if you fancy converting it, the plastic Contemptor Dreadnought
Ebay bits purchase a set of Storm Bolters (just get the arms from the terminator kit)
Possibly ebay some Storm Shields from some kit
This buy gives you 2 combi-plasmas, 2 storm shields, 2 Vanguard Veterans (you most likely will have to convert one to ditch the lightning claws) one bike (gets you a telehomer) one Terminator (Swap his Heavy Flamer for the Combi-Melta off the Iron hand marine).
5 storm shields (if you take the bit off the Squad Cassius Biker)
3 combi-plasmas (if you convert an additional combi-plasma from the squad cassius dark angel)
3 Frag Cannons
So the biggest thing you want is probably more storm bolters, and more storm shields. If you want to go super hard, ebay 10 of the former and 5 of the latter. Your venerable dreadnought will come with 1 storm bolter. The only models that are pure "conversions needed" in my opinion are Cassius, Artemis, plasma pistol/power sword guy and the libby, but all of them are in pretty open poses so converting comes easy. Plus you don't need any DW upgrade kits, and just the SC box and KTC box puts you well over 1000pts.
My conversion advice would be:
Cut Lightning Claws, Power swords, combi-flamer off artemis, bolt pistol hands off libby and cassius, maul off cassius. cut chainsword off space wolf.
Give both bolt pistols to the lightning claw vanvet. secret agent raven guard vanvet reporting for duty!
give cassius the chainsword and a regular bolter. llo vanilla captain McDreadnoughtsitter!
errybody else gets ebayed SS/SBs.
As always ,brilliant brilliant breakdown. Is it possible to field Deathwatch competitively without resorting to running guard blobs. I run my drukhari in the competitive scene, my quins are medium level and my orks are mostly funsies. I have to admit as I've started taking a more competitive mindset to 40k it feels like I auto build strong lists, though I do like experimenting! I know the blood angels smash captains are still very powerful, do DW have smash equivalents?
I was also thinking of running some imperial assassins as well. The starting boxes you recommend aren't too badly priced over here in the UK
ImPhaeronWeasel wrote: Whats the opinion on Repulsors or the Corvus after CA? I like both models but its quite hard to fit them both in 1750points
The biggest problems I have with the Repulsor in DW is lack of access to rerolling 1s to wound and the limited carrying capacity means you aren't able to put in a lot of the really cool mixed builds (ends up just bring Helltercessors). It's also a fire magnet if you don't have multiple heavy units to mess with your opponent's target priority.
It's super fun in codex lists, I just haven't had the opportunity to proxy in my Blood Ravens one for a DW game against an actual competitive list.
As for the Corvus, it's definitely cheaper...it just hasn't resolved it's biggest issues - paying that much for a gun boat that can't really shoot.
So, having just had my backside seriously tanned by a Necron Tesseract Vault I was wondering if anyone could assist with me putting together a plan.
I had put together a nice soup of 1 BA brigade, 1 DW Brigade and a heavy support of 2 x Helverins and a Warglaive.
The BA brigade has a couple of Lasconnon Razorbacks and a couple of Castellian armed Whirlwinds, Mephiston, Libby dread and scouts with HB The DW brigade had a veteran squad with a Termie, HW Frag Cannon Vet and the rest with Storm Bolters and a few SS, plus 2 Intercessors squads, Watch Master and a Libby
I was up against the Vault, a Deceiver, two Doomsday Arks, a Ghost Arc packed with Immortals a unit of scarabs, plus some warriors that hung around the back with a Lord and did nothing.
It took me three turns to take out the Vault, enough time for him to ctan power Mephitson with some "Slay" power which I had no save against, the DDA's one shotted my razorback, the other got tied up with scarabs, the scouts and Primaris got shot to ribbons and the DW libby didn't get close enough for Null zone before being killed. Libby Dread and Warglaive got killed after Vault fell back after combat.
Any thoughts on how to best beat up a Vault?
p.s. I am particularly gutted as I seized initative and got first turn.
So, having just had my backside seriously tanned by a Necron Tesseract Vault I was wondering if anyone could assist with me putting together a plan.
I had put together a nice soup of 1 BA brigade, 1 DW Brigade and a heavy support of 2 x Helverins and a Warglaive.
The BA brigade has a couple of Lasconnon Razorbacks and a couple of Castellian armed Whirlwinds, Mephiston, Libby dread and scouts with HB The DW brigade had a veteran squad with a Termie, HW Frag Cannon Vet and the rest with Storm Bolters and a few SS, plus 2 Intercessors squads, Watch Master and a Libby
I was up against the Vault, a Deceiver, two Doomsday Arks, a Ghost Arc packed with Immortals a unit of scarabs, plus some warriors that hung around the back with a Lord and did nothing.
It took me three turns to take out the Vault, enough time for him to ctan power Mephitson with some "Slay" power which I had no save against, the DDA's one shotted my razorback, the other got tied up with scarabs, the scouts and Primaris got shot to ribbons and the DW libby didn't get close enough for Null zone before being killed. Libby Dread and Warglaive got killed after Vault fell back after combat.
Any thoughts on how to best beat up a Vault?
p.s. I am particularly gutted as I seized initative and got first turn.
Just use a SmashCap. If not this massed SB with SIA and the to wound strat. A unit of Aggressors could take some wounds off the Vault.
Necron weapons are a counter to marines if you have no invuln saves. Try to use the aegis for 5++ saves or a contemptor Dread. If you want to go big take the Leviathan Dread.
You used BA so go for DeathCompany or VenVets. With mass attacks and +1 to wound you are wounding on 4s.
So, one other thing to keep in mind with the ctan vault, I see a lot of people get this wrong:
The insta-kill power (times arrow) i presume he killed mephiston with makes you roll a D6 and get higher than a model's WOUNDS STAT. Everybody seems to read this as WOUNDS (as in, current wounds remaining).
Even if Mephiston was at only 1 wound left he would have to roll a 6 in order to insta-gib him. Still a great power against certain units but it should not be regularly oneshooting marine HQs.
And yeah, my advice here would definitely be echoing other peoples: storm bolters with Malleus doctrine stratagem will tear that thing to bits. 10 storm bolters should just about half-health it in one go. Another pretty good weapon against Living Metal is a Frag Cannon, since LM only procs off it on a 1.
You are correct, he did melt Mephiston and he did get the required roll, I was not a happy bunny.
T7, 28 wounds and 3+/4++ is still quite a tough nut to crack.
Event when I got it down to 4 wounds in turn 2, he spent a CP to make it run as though it was still full health and was still dishing out the MW.
I am new to DW, as I have a job lot of Primaris and think DW suits them better than my BA.
Captain Smash I didn't play as sometimes pulling out the same old same old can get a bit tedious, plus, now that fly on the charge is gone he just surrounds his big targets with scarabs and the Captain gets bogged down.
I will take your advice and bring out the old Death company, and proxy in more storm bolters!
p.s. built my first Agressor today, 2 more to go and they are going black, not red
Thanks for the heads up on that, I was going to add one to the Primaris kill teams for close defense and also allow me to put the heavy weapons on the intercessors and still move about.
T7, 28 wounds and 3+/4++ is still quite a tough nut to crack.
Massed plasma. With Tactics they're gonna be wounding on rerollable 2s for 2 damage a pop (which is FAR more efficient than trying to death by thousand cuts with storm bolters). Plus they're hard counters for the entire Necron vehicle arsenal.
10 combi-plasma/ss vets: 280
Hit .777 (assuming reroll 1s)
Wound 35/36 (malleus tactic and strat)
1/2 blocked by 4++
1/6 blocked by Living Metal
12.47 damage.
0.0445 damage per point spent
10 SB/SS vets: 180
Hit .777 (assuming reroll 1s)
Wounds on 4s rerolling 1s (assuming malleus tactic and strat)
1/2 blocked by 4++ (-1AP ammo)
9.09 damage.
0.0505 damage per point.
Also longer rapid fire range, also better against other targets.
Combiplas becomes worth it at T8, but SB's rock against T7 with good invulns.
the_scotsman wrote: 10 combi-plasma/ss vets: 280
Hit .777 (assuming reroll 1s)
Wound 35/36 (malleus tactic and strat)
1/2 blocked by 4++
1/6 blocked by Living Metal
12.47 damage.
0.0445 damage per point spent
10 SB/SS vets: 180
Hit .777 (assuming reroll 1s)
Wounds on 4s rerolling 1s (assuming malleus tactic and strat)
1/2 blocked by 4++ (-1AP ammo)
9.09 damage.
0.0505 damage per point.
Also longer rapid fire range, also better against other targets.
Combiplas becomes worth it at T8, but SB's rock against T7 with good invulns.
Just a question. What do you mean with „Living Metal blocking“?
Living Metal isnt blocking anything. It just restores 1 health per user round. It is NOT Quantum Shields
Automatically Appended Next Post: PLUS PLUS IF you manage to kill the Vault you destroyed 550 of his points. Kill his destroyers (if hes got any) and you most probably have won.
the_scotsman wrote: 10 combi-plasma/ss vets: 280
Hit .777 (assuming reroll 1s)
Wound 35/36 (malleus tactic and strat)
1/2 blocked by 4++
1/6 blocked by Living Metal
12.47 damage.
0.0445 damage per point spent
10 SB/SS vets: 180
Hit .777 (assuming reroll 1s)
Wounds on 4s rerolling 1s (assuming malleus tactic and strat)
1/2 blocked by 4++ (-1AP ammo)
9.09 damage.
0.0505 damage per point.
Also longer rapid fire range, also better against other targets.
Combiplas becomes worth it at T8, but SB's rock against T7 with good invulns.
SB/SS are 20, not 18 ppm. And Vaults don't have quantum shielding.
You are right on both counts - I forgot which rule was which for the necrons and used the cost for regular marines for storm Bolters.
So Combi plasma gets about .053 wounds per point and Storm Bolters about .045. Not bad given the plasma gives up only 20% efficiency against chaff. But, I still wouldn't call it FAR more efficient. Both those returns are very good.
If you're firing a whole squad you have over a 50% chance of losing a 28 point plasma guy though.
Honestly with no quantum shkelds those Helverins should have been dynamite against that thing. 4 wounds on average per shot. I'm surprised it took three turns to take out.
My rolling was not brilliant, plus I had to take the DDA's down at least one bracket at least, two turns had the Vault on 4 wounds, just it can still operate at full efficiency.
I also brought down the deceiver in turn two also.
TBH I expected my force to do better, dice was not with me as I recall rolling 20 something dice in one shooting turn and not getting a single 5/6 to wound :(
The standard dakka/shield vet squad is now very competitively priced.
Each team clocks in at just over 200pts, can't be shut down by CC, is crazy tanky vs all damage except mortal wounds, and is a hard counter to lots of top units.
It's not really something I'm keen to try out, but it strikes me that a watchmaster, a jumpcap, 3 10-man dakka teams as per above, alongside two tank commanders, 3 mortar IS and a Castallan could be a serious contender for Imperial Soup top spot. What do you think?
The standard dakka/shield vet squad is now very competitively priced.
Each team clocks in at just over 200pts, can't be shut down by CC, is crazy tanky vs all damage except mortal wounds, and is a hard counter to lots of top units.
It's not really something I'm keen to try out, but it strikes me that a watchmaster, a jumpcap, 3 10-man dakka teams as per above, alongside two tank commanders, 3 mortar IS and a Castallan could be a serious contender for Imperial Soup top spot. What do you think?
Been running it for a few months...even before CA it was Competitive.
The Core should include:
At least 1 Jump Capt
3 Vet squads: Termy/Bike/vanvet SB/SS vets
AM Guard
Castellian
That is the basis of a Competitive Build. You can go from there
I run 4 Vet units and 2 Jump watch capts 1 has the relic becon , minimum AM and a castellian
Now i will tell you where your gonna struggle:
Knight armies (with Castellian)
Eldar
Mortals hurt. Its why i bring 2 Terminators and 2 Bikes per unit (i can absorb 4 mortal wounds per squad)
Facing other Knight armies with a Castellian can be an uphill battle if you lose your Castellian first and terrain is bad
Do you mean you've been running it in GTs and such? I mean that I think it's possible that we're about to become a common element in soup lists, and that people will start building for us a little bit.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And do you think 2 Tank Commanders is a solid choice for your AM batallion? The should get a free pass turn one in a lot of games.
grouchoben wrote: Do you mean you've been running it in GTs and such? I mean that I think it's possible that we're about to become a common element in soup lists, and that people will start building for us a little bit.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And do you think 2 Tank Commanders is a solid choice for your AM batallion? The should get a free pass turn one in a lot of games.
Absolutly. played in a total of 6 RTTs/GT with this setup. It works well with Practice.
I think the 2 tank Commanders are a decent choice now with the reduction in cost. Prior...not so much.
The core element to any "Competitive Build should be what i listed above and then go from there.
Use: Tank Commanders, Castellians,Gallants + Helverns, BobbyG and Sisters, Psyker Supreme Commands ect ect.
I like my core to consist of 4 10 man units of Vets. Depending on what i want to add will dictate how i build out those Vet squads but they will at least consist of SB/SS guys with at least 1 Termi 1 vanvet and 1 bikevet. I tend to leave the specialty weapons home and leave that to whatever additional Soup units i bring.
In a mono build i have found that Dreads with there new cost reduction helps them alot. Ven dreads, Mortis, Contemptors, Levis all do a great job of giving decent anti tank. I will admit that i still sneak in the Loyal 32 for CPs cause...why not
Quad-Autocannon Contemptor Mortis (+/- CML) vs. Helverins.
Minus the missiles the dread is cheaper (148 vs 172) with a similar defensive profile, better/equivalent accuracy (2+/3+ vs 3+) at slightly less offensive output and worse mobility.
But the first gets mission tactics, as well as synergy with DWHQs and strategems.
Flat 3 damage on the armament and base 14" speed (Raven household superzooms not withstanding) are fantastic assets the Helverins bring though, especially if one plays a lot of Bike/VV subunits.
I don't really know where I'm going with this, I think its moreso a "im trying to avoid IKs" line of thought than anything else. But at the same time, if a list is just a boatload of Dreads is that any better?
Sterling191 wrote: Flat 3 damage on the armament and base 14" speed (Raven household superzooms not withstanding) are fantastic assets the Helverins bring though, especially if one plays a lot of Bike/VV subunits.
I don't really know where I'm going with this, I think its moreso a "im trying to avoid IKs" line of thought than anything else. But at the same time, if a list is just a boatload of Dreads is that any better?
To be fair, it is a matter of principle that an army work without allies. They should be a compliment, not a crutch.
The buffs Dreads can get, along with that nice Aegis babysitter, make shooting Dreads worthy for consideration though. I was certainly relying on Helvirens until recently.
Sterling191 wrote: Flat 3 damage on the armament and base 14" speed (Raven household superzooms not withstanding) are fantastic assets the Helverins bring though, especially if one plays a lot of Bike/VV subunits.
I don't really know where I'm going with this, I think its moreso a "im trying to avoid IKs" line of thought than anything else. But at the same time, if a list is just a boatload of Dreads is that any better?
Quad regular autocannons at BS2+ and in a captain aura do just .05 less damage on average vs regular vehicles than the helverin's cannons at BS3+, without even factoring in mission tactics. The Helverin's autocannons are also more random in their number of shots (upping the variability of their damage, which is generally bad) and in my experience at least there are more models in the current meta at W2 than W3, and W3 is the only number where D3 is more efficient than D2.
I can see the D3 being more of a liability than a strength compared to the W2 a lot of the time. Really, the helverin's only point for me is the mobility.
To be fair, it is a matter of principle that an army work without allies. They should be a compliment, not a crutch.
True, and as someone who soups the bejeezus out of my other main army (Eldar of multiple flavors) it may sound a little weird for me to be going all mono-faction idealist, but here we are. I tend to get whimsical when I'm sleep and caffeine deprived.
The buffs Dreads can get, along with that nice Aegis babysitter, make shooting Dreads worthy for consideration though. I was certainly relying on Helvirens until recently.
Thats kind of what has me looking at the non QuadLas CMortis configurations, since it doesn't need the Aegis.
Quad regular autocannons at BS2+ and in a captain aura do just .05 less damage on average vs regular vehicles than the helverin's cannons at BS3+, without even factoring in mission tactics. The Helverin's autocannons are also more random in their number of shots (upping the variability of their damage, which is generally bad) and in my experience at least there are more models in the current meta at W2 than W3, and W3 is the only number where D3 is more efficient than D2.
I can see the D3 being more of a liability than a strength compared to the W2 a lot of the time. Really, the helverin's only point for me is the mobility.
Fair point, though the number of W5/W6 models that may be coming back into play post-CA might push that the other way.
I made the mistake of running the mathhammer numbers for a CML Rifle CMortis versus a Helverin and it aint pretty for the Helverin.
Yeah, there's the thing though: D2 is just as efficient (in terms of wounds lost due to overkill) as D3 against W5 and W6 - you lose 1 wound killing W5, no wounds killing W6.
D3 loses 1W of efficiency against every model of a W2 unit. D2 loses 1W of efficincy against every other model of a W3 unit.
The contemptor has lower damage on its gun, but it has higher BS (rerollable 2+ if you assume you'll have a captain, which you should) leading to more wounds.
An illustrative example: both vs Primaris, assuming captain aura on the Contemptor.
Contemptor: 2.59 dead primaris
Helverin: 1.77 dead primaris.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, there's the thing though: D2 is just as efficient (in terms of wounds lost due to overkill) as D3 against W5 and W6 - you lose 1 wound killing W5, no wounds killing W6.
D3 loses 1W of efficiency against every model of a W2 unit. D2 loses 1W of efficincy against every other model of a W3 unit.
The contemptor has lower damage on its gun, but it has higher BS (rerollable 2+ if you assume you'll have a captain, which you should) leading to more wounds.
An illustrative example: both vs Primaris, assuming captain aura on the Contemptor.
Contemptor: 2.59 dead primaris
Helverin: 1.77 dead primaris.
You can't just assume Captain benefit unless you're willing to do the same for Knights, which have a unit that confers the same kinda bonus yes?
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, there's the thing though: D2 is just as efficient (in terms of wounds lost due to overkill) as D3 against W5 and W6 - you lose 1 wound killing W5, no wounds killing W6.
D3 loses 1W of efficiency against every model of a W2 unit. D2 loses 1W of efficincy against every other model of a W3 unit.
The contemptor has lower damage on its gun, but it has higher BS (rerollable 2+ if you assume you'll have a captain, which you should) leading to more wounds.
An illustrative example: both vs Primaris, assuming captain aura on the Contemptor.
Contemptor: 2.59 dead primaris
Helverin: 1.77 dead primaris.
You can't just assume Captain benefit unless you're willing to do the same for Knights, which have a unit that confers the same kinda bonus yes?
I mean, in the context of a mainly Deathwatch list, I'm going to be taking captains, I'm not going to be taking 450 point preceptors.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
grouchoben wrote: And watchmaster with ectoclades buffs are exponentially better than any shooting buff available to IKs. Who isn't taking a watchmaster?
Me, I usually take Captains as my shooting support because if you start at BS2+ the reroll everything is identical to reroll 1s. And I want native deepstrike on my frontline support.
But the captain can take Ectoclades as well, no? Making him a discount Lieutenant+Captain rolled into 1. Nice if he's babysitting contemptors rather than vendreads because then there's no need at all for the shield.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The real struggle is finding something worthwhile to do with that 4th HQ slot if you're talking about mono-DW, IMO.
Can't do just a brigade, because there's no cheap HS (could find some wonky FW thing I suppose, that might be a good option, but filling 3 FA and 3 Elites is a struggle as well) so you really want 4 HQs for 2 battalions.
1 backline captain is a real boon, or WM if you're going for BS3+ stuff. 1 termie captain to deep strike with the boys. 1 termie librarian with MOH and Null Zone, then...maybe a chaplain dread?
Contemptors, Deredeos and Leviathans all degrade, so if you're running them, WM is still the real deal. They also all have 5++ or better already, so you don't need an aegis cap to babysit them. I think ven dreads are the only dread that don't much prefer a WM. My Lev dread, for example, is still hitting 15 times on his lowest bracket with a WM.
For my 4th I usually run a second smash cap or a chap dread.
Anyone got any tips for 1750points? I find it hard to implement 2 battalions in a 1750k list...
Any tips what to do against Kastellan Robots (apart from Captain Smash)? They are an infantry killer and its hard to deal with them as they habe a 4++ save. Deepstriking a squad next to them is easier said than done as everything is screened with cheap skitarii units.
Also Also anyone got experience with Custodes allies (NOT! Dawneagle Bikes)? I thought of allying some Custodes Termies or better the standart infantry for the 2+/3++. Nothing very competitive but I think they look cool and I like elite style units/models/factions
ImPhaeronWeasel wrote: Anyone got any tips for 1750points? I find it hard to implement 2 battalions in a 1750k list...
Any tips what to do against Kastellan Robots (apart from Captain Smash)? They are an infantry killer and its hard to deal with them as they habe a 4++ save. Deepstriking a squad next to them is easier said than done as everything is screened with cheap skitarii units.
Also Also anyone got experience with Custodes allies (NOT! Dawneagle Bikes)? I thought of allying some Custodes Termies or better the standart infantry for the 2+/3++. Nothing very competitive but I think they look cool and I like elite style units/models/factions
If you're that against the Bikes for whatever reason, your points are best spent on the regular troops. 3 with a Spear and 1 with a Sword/Shield is decent enough for a squad, as you don't really need too many of the 3++ when everyone is sporting a 4++.
ImPhaeronWeasel wrote: Anyone got any tips for 1750points? I find it hard to implement 2 battalions in a 1750k list...
Any tips what to do against Kastellan Robots (apart from Captain Smash)? They are an infantry killer and its hard to deal with them as they habe a 4++ save. Deepstriking a squad next to them is easier said than done as everything is screened with cheap skitarii units.
Also Also anyone got experience with Custodes allies (NOT! Dawneagle Bikes)? I thought of allying some Custodes Termies or better the standart infantry for the 2+/3++. Nothing very competitive but I think they look cool and I like elite style units/models/factions
If you're that against the Bikes for whatever reason, your points are best spent on the regular troops. 3 with a Spear and 1 with a Sword/Shield is decent enough for a squad, as you don't really need too many of the 3++ when everyone is sporting a 4++.
The Bikes are a GREAT unit and very strong but that exactly is the case...I dont want to lose my friends...not all of them at least A BikeCaptain and a SmashCap would be just too strong. I want to use the Custodes more as a distraction Carnifex unit thats also cool. Doesnt have to be super competitive.
Tarantula sentry Guns make for a cheap FA option, and everyone knows how much I talk about the Heavy Bolter one.
Dread variants are always nice.
Sicarans (well at least the Autocannon variant; I can't speak for the others as I never mathed them) aren't terrible if you're looking for a legit battle tank.
Chaplain dreadnoughts might be something to think about from FW for deathwatch. Unless I'm wrong, nothing stops them from getting SIA, so you'd get a character dread with 2 CCW arms, an invuln save, 8 SIA shots and a cute little strength buff for 164 points.
I kind of agree most vehicles seem terrible. Maybe the whirlwind hyperios for 120 points for a bit of anti-fly punch?
Something like the following for pure deathwatch:
Brigade detachment
Relic Blade Termie Captain
Standard captain (warlord: Ignores Cover trait, Relic: Lieutenanting For Dummies)
Terminator Libby
3x5 Vets with Stalker Boltguns
3x kill teams with 7 SS/SB vets, 1 maul/SB terminator, 1 double bolt pistol vanguard
Primaris Apothecary
2x Las/ML vendreads
3x Tarantula guns
Quadlas Mortis Contemptor
2x Whirlwind Hyperios with Hyperios Launchers
With the sob excorcist moving to d6 damage what are everyone’s thoughts on a 3 excorcist plus canoness for anti tank? 3d6 shots for d6 damage a piece rerollimg 1s to hit. For a little over 400 pts. Should by my mathhammer be able to take out a Knight in 1 round
Versatilebeats wrote: With the sob excorcist moving to d6 damage what are everyone’s thoughts on a 3 excorcist plus canoness for anti tank? 3d6 shots for d6 damage a piece rerollimg 1s to hit. For a little over 400 pts. Should by my mathhammer be able to take out a Knight in 1 round
On paper seems workable. They're T8 platforms, but LoS is gonna play havoc with them, and variable shots with variable damage can get streaky damn quickly.
Versatilebeats wrote: With the sob excorcist moving to d6 damage what are everyone’s thoughts on a 3 excorcist plus canoness for anti tank? 3d6 shots for d6 damage a piece rerollimg 1s to hit. For a little over 400 pts. Should by my mathhammer be able to take out a Knight in 1 round
I mean...I guess theoretically they could take out a knight in one round? but then again, theoretically, so can any 4 lascannon shots - you just need to roll 4 6s for damage.
On average three exorcists cause 9.3 wounds to a knight in one round, if it doesn't decide to take advantage of any of the extra defenses that most knights use (bare minimum a 4++, usually a 3++.)
the exact same points spend on 2 quadlas contemptors and a barebones watch captain causes 16.1 damage to that knight.
Versatilebeats wrote: With the sob excorcist moving to d6 damage what are everyone’s thoughts on a 3 excorcist plus canoness for anti tank? 3d6 shots for d6 damage a piece rerollimg 1s to hit. For a little over 400 pts. Should by my mathhammer be able to take out a Knight in 1 round
I mean...I guess theoretically they could take out a knight in one round? but then again, theoretically, so can any 4 lascannon shots - you just need to roll 4 6s for damage.
On average three exorcists cause 9.3 wounds to a knight in one round, if it doesn't decide to take advantage of any of the extra defenses that most knights use (bare minimum a 4++, usually a 3++.)
the exact same points spend on 2 quadlas contemptors and a barebones watch captain causes 16.1 damage to that knight.
With the Strategem, that would bumped up a little too.
One thing to remember too, though, is that the Exorcists + Canoness would still give you a CP for existing, which is beneficial in it's own right.
Versatilebeats wrote: With the sob excorcist moving to d6 damage what are everyone’s thoughts on a 3 excorcist plus canoness for anti tank? 3d6 shots for d6 damage a piece rerollimg 1s to hit. For a little over 400 pts. Should by my mathhammer be able to take out a Knight in 1 round
As a Sisters player, Exorcists are Ok, but not great. They use a lot of CPs to reroll shot numbers. Now that they moved up to D6 damage they aren't a joke anymore, but they still suffer from the huge issue of randomness. If they are your main anti-tank I would qualify them as inadequate, and without Aura buffing from the Sisters warlord and Celestine they lose one of their big advantages (4++).
For the question earlier about Custodes Terminators, I think one of the better ways to use them is to take a unit of 5-6 of them, deepstrike them into your opponents backfield, then use Unleash the Lions on them. Then your opponent essentially has 6 individual characters running around punching stuff and creating havoc. It's not bad, expensive though
As a Sisters player, Exorcists are Ok, but not great. They use a lot of CPs to reroll shot numbers. Now that they moved up to D6 damage they aren't a joke anymore, but they still suffer from the huge issue of randomness. If they are your main anti-tank I would qualify them as inadequate, and without Aura buffing from the Sisters warlord and Celestine they lose one of their big advantages (4++).
Exorcists get Shield of Faith right? With a brazier 'ness that then becomes a pretty sturdy midfield deny bubble, and possible distraction 'fex for backfield VenDreads/CMorts.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: As long as they get their reroll from the Canonness, that's all that matters.
I'm still not convinced they're all that useful. 3 vendreads and a captain cost 110 points more and deal 33% more damage vs knights, 25% more damage vs standard vehicles. The loyal 32 giving FIVE for 180 is one thing, but 400 for 1 when you can get 510 for 1 staying in-faction and dealing more damage for your points, I'm not sure what problem you're trying to resolve.
Maybe put them in a cheap soup detachment with some min troops, but at that point I think the job is done much better with a stygies admech battalion with 1 domi, 1 TP, 3 min skitarii squads and 3 neutron lasers.
576 points, 5 command points, -1 to hit, 11.82 damage on average vs knights, heal 2d3 wounds per turn, same invuln save the sisters tanks get, and for 1cp you can tell that -2 to hit alaitoc hemlock to feth right off because you still hit him on 3s rerolling 1s.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: As long as they get their reroll from the Canonness, that's all that matters.
I'm still not convinced they're all that useful. 3 vendreads and a captain cost 110 points more and deal 33% more damage vs knights, 25% more damage vs standard vehicles. The loyal 32 giving FIVE for 180 is one thing, but 400 for 1 when you can get 510 for 1 staying in-faction and dealing more damage for your points, I'm not sure what problem you're trying to resolve.
Maybe put them in a cheap soup detachment with some min troops, but at that point I think the job is done much better with a stygies admech battalion with 1 domi, 1 TP, 3 min skitarii squads and 3 neutron lasers.
576 points, 5 command points, -1 to hit, 11.82 damage on average vs knights, heal 2d3 wounds per turn, same invuln save the sisters tanks get, and for 1cp you can tell that -2 to hit alaitoc hemlock to feth right off because you still hit him on 3s rerolling 1s.
Y'all know what's funny is that I was in the middle of making a post regarding potential AdMech Anti-Tank and then my phone did a thing.
What's nice about the Lasers is the somewhat consistent damage, due to a minimum of 3. I never mathed it out though as I mostly stuck with the Icarus Array, which is definitely something to be considered. Hitting a lot of targets on a 2+ is certainly nothing to sneeze at with how much it shoots.
the_scotsman wrote: Chaplain dreadnoughts might be something to think about from FW for deathwatch. Unless I'm wrong, nothing stops them from getting SIA, so you'd get a character dread with 2 CCW arms, an invuln save, 8 SIA shots and a cute little strength buff for 164 points.
I kind of agree most vehicles seem terrible. Maybe the whirlwind hyperios for 120 points for a bit of anti-fly punch?
Something like the following for pure deathwatch:
Brigade detachment
Relic Blade Termie Captain
Standard captain (warlord: Ignores Cover trait, Relic: Lieutenanting For Dummies)
Terminator Libby
3x5 Vets with Stalker Boltguns
3x kill teams with 7 SS/SB vets, 1 maul/SB terminator, 1 double bolt pistol vanguard
Primaris Apothecary
2x Las/ML vendreads
3x Tarantula guns
Quadlas Mortis Contemptor
2x Whirlwind Hyperios with Hyperios Launchers
Data sheet needs the Special Issue Ammunition special rule, which I don't think it does.
Inside DW, triple-HKM Leviathans are top dog (man I feel like a broken record) alongside the new contemptor imo.
Outside it's the Castallan, right? Yeah, afraid so. If we're souping in AT it's a shoe-in. Tank Commanders are really decent now too, I'm trying a loyal 30 + 2 TCs at the moment, they do good work if they get a few rounds on the table.
grouchoben wrote: Inside DW, triple-HKM Leviathans are top dog (man I feel like a broken record) alongside the new contemptor imo.
Outside it's the Castallan, right? Yeah, afraid so. If we're souping in AT it's a shoe-in. Tank Commanders are really decent now too, I'm trying a loyal 30 + 2 TCs at the moment, they do good work if they get a few rounds on the table.
But then you're giving up what makes that loyal cannon fodder so flexible and capable - orders.
I got a whole boatload of primaris bois for hella cheap and DW has always been the only marine faction that's interesting to me so I was wondering if a full primaris force was any good?
Like what fortis team loadouts work well without any baby marine support? I play guard normally so I can always toss in some leman russes and the loyal 32 if I really need to fill gaps, but I'd rather try to use all the primaris I just got.
I got ten hellblasters, 3 aggressors, like 30+ intercessors of various loadouts and most on sprue. I also got a redemptor dreadnaught.
I wouldn't go full Primaris, especially post CA2018, but they still have their place.
The Redemptor is sadly not a good option for Deathwatch. It's best configuration is for killing infantry, which is the DW specialty.
The Interblaster Fortis team (5x Ints, 5x Hellblasters) is a favorite of mine, and I usually run two out of deep strike. The 15 inch rapid fire range on the plasma means pretty much anything that isnt a Knight is going to die in one salvo, usually with a secondary target also slagged or severely bracketed.
Honorable mention to the 5x Auto Bolt Rifle Int, 1x Aggressor skirmisher team, though they're pretty solidly outclassed by the 3x Bike, 2x VanVet combat squad nowadays.
Stus67 wrote: I got a whole boatload of primaris bois for hella cheap and DW has always been the only marine faction that's interesting to me so I was wondering if a full primaris force was any good?
Like what fortis team loadouts work well without any baby marine support? I play guard normally so I can always toss in some leman russes and the loyal 32 if I really need to fill gaps, but I'd rather try to use all the primaris I just got.
I got ten hellblasters, 3 aggressors, like 30+ intercessors of various loadouts and most on sprue. I also got a redemptor dreadnaught.
TLDR:
regular space marines have more flexible loadouts, generally meaning if you're competitively minded you can squeeze more out of min-maxing their loadout. Primaris marines by nature of being fixed and having a distinct damage spike vs any D2 weaponry have an in-built achilles heel. They do the same job, just slightly worse in slightly more matchups. If you face a meta heavy with low-quality firepower (DE Venomspam, maybe an IG horde list type deal) then primaris can have value, but they are a tad bit rigid.
It is also nice that they have the option of applying turn 1 pressure by their transport not being total deadweight (repulsors are kind of like somewhat more viable land raiders, and if you take a fortis team with no inceptor you can optionally deploy in one of the repulsors instead of deep striking.)
Best basic team IMO is 5x intercessors with bolt rifles, 4x hellblasters with the basic rapid fire guns, and 1x inceptor with plasma, using the deep strike stratagem 3x. Throw in the loyal 32, a couple repulsors/redemptor dreads with a dedicated babysitting captain, second captain to advance up out of one of the redemptors to try and make sure he's in position to buff the deep strike, and a primaris apothecary to run up alongside him (if you're dumping 60 wounds down onto the table you might as well get some mileage out of that apothecary).
That's a pretty good place to start. Hell of a cheap list to build, too - almost everything you want can be ebayed from Dark Imperium or bought ez-build, and those primaris guys might as well be monopose anyway so what difference does it make. Your most laughable expense is gonna be the stupid 35$ apothecary.
Automatically Appended Next Post: FWIW, I'm realizing as I describe it that playing a full primaris marine army sounds about as interesting as going to see the new experimental classical music piece "F Sharp For 67 Minutes Straight".
You just get shot turn 1, deep strike 30 bodies turn 2, and hope your wall of monopose marine meat flops their army to death before their army can grind through it.
I have been playing my primaris force as DW and have had some pretty solid success in my meta which is NOT a highly competitive one as nobody uses LOWs unless agreed upon so take what I say within that context of good lists, but not tournament worthy lists.
Primaris DW really has three core pillars of strength
1: The Intercessor.
He is good for his points. The addition of SIA for 1 point is a MASSIVE boost to their offensive output and the tactic to re-roll 1s against certain units map wide is also pretty darn useful. They are the core of your army and fill a really nice niche there. Of course they are chronically weak to D2, but hey that's part of the experience of playing Primaris forces. You have to just accept that handicap and deal with it.
2. Mix squads.
Core marines can set up really nice castles with banners, hellblasters and aggressors letting them deal damage back when they die. Deathwatch on the other hand can mix in aggressors and hellblasters with the less valuable (but still good) intercessors to provide additional meathshields and a more versatile unit that is not restricted by the 6inch aura of the banner. When an enemy fires at a unit of hellblasters every kill is on a hellblaster. When they fire at a DW squad they have to chew through a minimum of 5 intercessors to get to the valuable bits.
3. Teleportation
Being able to deep strike your units is really nice. It can really help you get into position and make up for your lack of mobility in a big way.
If you are going to run pure primaris DW is for sure the best for that, but I would say they are inferior to veterans (3++ for 2 points is just silly), but can perform in a more moderate gaming environment.
Oh one big weakness I feel sometimes goes overlooked is morale. Primaris with the sergeant are only LD8 and if you get big squads of 10 you can very easily start to lose boys to morale. For that reason I like to not go past 7 boys.
Stus67 wrote: I got a whole boatload of primaris bois for hella cheap and DW has always been the only marine faction that's interesting to me so I was wondering if a full primaris force was any good?
Like what fortis team loadouts work well without any baby marine support? I play guard normally so I can always toss in some leman russes and the loyal 32 if I really need to fill gaps, but I'd rather try to use all the primaris I just got.
I got ten hellblasters, 3 aggressors, like 30+ intercessors of various loadouts and most on sprue. I also got a redemptor dreadnaught.
They aren't as competitive an option as mini marines. They were close before CA2018, but now the gap grew in favour of Vets.
So for mobile anti-infantry, start with 5 Intercessors with auto bolt rifle, add at least 1 bolt Aggressor, and tweak from there. Can focus on SIA and just keep adding Intercessors. If you do that, considering swapping one out for a Reiver giving you their special rules for that unit, which are situational but decent. Or you could go hardcore and just add 4 Aggressors and 1 Inceptor, giving the unit 20 T5 wounds, 2+ in save, and providing ablative wounds so your Aggressors can get into position and double fire. The inceptor is optional, but gives you the ability to fall back and shoot. You'll do more damage, but if something charges you to try and silence you, you're probably better off staying in the thick of it using those 8 to 11 power fist attacks (depending on if you equip the sarge with one) alongside 10 S4 attacks as well.
So in summary, common builds are...
Mobile SIA board control 5-9 Intercessors w/ auto bolt rifle
1 Aggressor w/ boltstorm
- the cheapest
- optionally add a Reiver in place of an Intercessor for a very, very small premium to give the unit a few extra situational yet decent special rules
Resilient dakkabase 5 Intercessors w/ auto bolt rifle
4 Aggressors w/ boltstorm
1 Inceptor
- the most dangerous of the bunch, but expensive
- advance it so you're within 18'' of something, plop on an objective in cover, and hose bullets
- T5 majority, 2 wounds a piece, and 2+ save in cover
Bullies 6 Intercessors w/ auto bolt rifle
2 Reivers w/ bolt carbine
2 Aggressors w/ boltstorm
- you'll combat squad this one into two great bully units of 3 Intercessors, 1 Reiver, 1 Aggressor
So for heavier stuff, start with 5 bolt rifle Intercessors and add 5 Hellblasters. Consider an Inceptor here as well to avoid getting the unit shut down in melee. In some cases the Inceptor is somewhat optional since this is a perfect unit for the Teleportarium, which gives you a lot of control over the retaliation due to placement and their range, saving you points.
Stay away from the heavy version of the weapons for both rifles and plasma.
Go dakka all the way on the Dreadnought. You want to use that fist, so you want to be moving, but it's a platform that is affected by the heavy weapon penalty so volume of shots helps alleviate that issue.
Mobile SIA board control 5-9 Intercessors w/ auto bolt rifle
1 Aggressor w/ boltstorm
- the cheapest
- optionally add a Reiver in place of an Intercessor for a very, very small premium to give the unit a few extra situational yet decent special rules
Personal variant on this:
6 Intercessors
2 Aggressors
2 Reivers
Combat down to two teams of 3x Ints, 1x Agg, 1x Reiv.
Hey presto, MSU skirmishers that can do some pretty tasty stuff in support of other specialized squads.
The Leviathan is probably the top pick, though that's a little less of an absolute now. It's big advantage is simply that a pair of Storm Cannon Arrays can do pretty disgusting things in tandem with the DW to-hit/wound rerolls and the +to-wound strategems. It's a pretty incredible amount of firepower to buff. Pound for pound, the Mortis Contemptor is probably the best Dreadnought overall now. The chassis is just in a really good place, making it probably the best mount for our heavy weapon options. Vehicles generally aren't worth it. We don't really need them, they're not really that efficient and they don't benefit from buffs.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I like a mix of Vet and Primaris marines personally. The extra range and natural AP on Intercessors make them nice for defending positions. Aggressors take DW buffs crazy well and make for very mobile foot sloggers. Vets are very efficient though and definitely serve an important role.
Stus67 wrote: I got a whole boatload of primaris bois for hella cheap and DW has always been the only marine faction that's interesting to me so I was wondering if a full primaris force was any good?
Like what fortis team loadouts work well without any baby marine support? I play guard normally so I can always toss in some leman russes and the loyal 32 if I really need to fill gaps, but I'd rather try to use all the primaris I just got.
I got ten hellblasters, 3 aggressors, like 30+ intercessors of various loadouts and most on sprue. I also got a redemptor dreadnaught.
They aren't as competitive an option as mini marines. They were close before CA2018, but now the gap grew in favour of Vets.
So for mobile anti-infantry, start with 5 Intercessors with auto bolt rifle, add at least 1 bolt Aggressor, and tweak from there. Can focus on SIA and just keep adding Intercessors. If you do that, considering swapping one out for a Reiver giving you their special rules for that unit, which are situational but decent. Or you could go hardcore and just add 4 Aggressors and 1 Inceptor, giving the unit 20 T5 wounds, 2+ in save, and providing ablative wounds so your Aggressors can get into position and double fire. The inceptor is optional, but gives you the ability to fall back and shoot. You'll do more damage, but if something charges you to try and silence you, you're probably better off staying in the thick of it using those 8 to 11 power fist attacks (depending on if you equip the sarge with one) alongside 10 S4 attacks as well.
So in summary, common builds are...
Mobile SIA board control 5-9 Intercessors w/ auto bolt rifle
1 Aggressor w/ boltstorm
- the cheapest
- optionally add a Reiver in place of an Intercessor for a very, very small premium to give the unit a few extra situational yet decent special rules
Resilient dakkabase 5 Intercessors w/ auto bolt rifle
4 Aggressors w/ boltstorm
1 Inceptor
- the most dangerous of the bunch, but expensive
- advance it so you're within 18'' of something, plop on an objective in cover, and hose bullets
- T5 majority, 2 wounds a piece, and 2+ save in cover
Bullies 6 Intercessors w/ auto bolt rifle
2 Reivers w/ bolt carbine
2 Aggressors w/ boltstorm
- you'll combat squad this one into two great bully units of 3 Intercessors, 1 Reiver, 1 Aggressor
So for heavier stuff, start with 5 bolt rifle Intercessors and add 5 Hellblasters. Consider an Inceptor here as well to avoid getting the unit shut down in melee. In some cases the Inceptor is somewhat optional since this is a perfect unit for the Teleportarium, which gives you a lot of control over the retaliation due to placement and their range, saving you points.
Stay away from the heavy version of the weapons for both rifles and plasma.
Go dakka all the way on the Dreadnought. You want to use that fist, so you want to be moving, but it's a platform that is affected by the heavy weapon penalty so volume of shots helps alleviate that issue.
The Reivers are largely pointless, but the idea of combat squads with 4 Intercessors and 1 Aggressor was something I actually didn't think about. I was originally doing two separate squads of 5 Intercessors and an Aggressor, but I might as well do a 10 man squad of 8 Intercessors and 2 Aggressors.
Good call. I forget Combat Squads actually work for this army compared to other Loyalist Scum armies.
It’s 2 points for shock grenades and terror troops, plus a potentially nasty AP-3 shot in melee. They’re not gonna win battles by themselves, but they’re tricks folks don’t expect to get hit by.
Thanks for the input guys. It'll help me out when it comes to building them. My local meta isn't super competitive and I don't plan on making my DW competitive either so all this info is pretty good.
Sterling191 wrote: It’s 2 points for shock grenades and terror troops, plus a potentially nasty AP-3 shot in melee. They’re not gonna win battles by themselves, but they’re tricks folks don’t expect to get hit by.
Shock Grenades have like no range and an additional AP on the pistol isn't worth two points.
Sterling191 wrote: It’s 2 points for shock grenades and terror troops, plus a potentially nasty AP-3 shot in melee. They’re not gonna win battles by themselves, but they’re tricks folks don’t expect to get hit by.
Shock Grenades have like no range and an additional AP on the pistol isn't worth two points.
Yeah, what kills me on reivers is that they're trapped in a unit that can only have pillows for fists. The only way I'd put one in is if I was planning on combat-squadding into 2 squads, one with 3 aggressors, 1 inceptor, and 1 reiver.
And even then, that'd be bad, becuse those units are not particularly good.
Sterling191 wrote: It’s 2 points for shock grenades and terror troops, plus a potentially nasty AP-3 shot in melee. They’re not gonna win battles by themselves, but they’re tricks folks don’t expect to get hit by.
Shock Grenades have like no range and an additional AP on the pistol isn't worth two points.
It absolutely is when you shut down an entire gunline and shove three Bike/VanVet teams down your enemies throat by bypassing overwatch.
Sterling191 wrote: It’s 2 points for shock grenades and terror troops, plus a potentially nasty AP-3 shot in melee. They’re not gonna win battles by themselves, but they’re tricks folks don’t expect to get hit by.
Shock Grenades have like no range and an additional AP on the pistol isn't worth two points.
It absolutely is when you shut down an entire gunline and shove three Bike/VanVet teams down your enemies throat by bypassing overwatch.
Overwatch is never dangerous outside super niche scenarios, and those dangerous weapons are absorbed with those super cheap Storm Shields you can carry.
Overwatch is never dangerous outside super niche scenarios, and those dangerous weapons are absorbed with those super cheap Storm Shields you can carry.
Not even close to reality, but sure. Fine. Save your two points and embrace the meta cookie cutter.
So nice to see the "hey we've got storm shields, we dont give a feth about actually thinking" mindset is already kicking in.
Any tips for a 1750points list?
I always feel like im missing something...1-2 support units.
And its hard to do something useful turn 1 when everything important waits in Deepstrike. Is it the VetTeam with Shields and FragCanons or Hellblasters or a LevDread. The Watchmaster is such a big force multiplier its almost crazy.
Always feels like Im lacking something in 1750point games. Even when going for pure Deathwatch
ImPhaeronWeasel wrote: Any tips for a 1750points list?
I always feel like im missing something...1-2 support units.
And its hard to do something useful turn 1 when everything important waits in Deepstrike. Is it the VetTeam with Shields and FragCanons or Hellblasters or a LevDread. The Watchmaster is such a big force multiplier its almost crazy.
Always feels like Im lacking something in 1750point games. Even when going for pure Deathwatch
I've seen two different solutions to this tried by myself and a buddy of mine.
I tend to run the non-deepstrike half of my list in extreme defense posture. a fairly heavy detachment of admech allies, -1 to hit doctrine, using the Shroudpsalm stratagem turn 1 for cover on everybody. Allies anvil, deathwatch hammer. If they kill something it's a nice bonus.
the other guy doesn't like the all deepstrike all the time strategy, and tends to want to have the option to go for turn 1 tempo instead with his list. He runs a 5 hellblaster/5 intercessor fortis team and has a Repulsor (so he can deploy in it or in deep strike), a couple bike units with homers as well as a jump HQ with the Beacon, so he can stick stuff out of LOS and jump forward turn 1 with that beacon.
Basically his MO is against enemies that will come to him, he deploys in the "turn 1 tempo" mode, and in enemies he wants to go to, he deploys heavy into deep strike.
Sterling191 wrote: It’s 2 points for shock grenades and terror troops, plus a potentially nasty AP-3 shot in melee. They’re not gonna win battles by themselves, but they’re tricks folks don’t expect to get hit by.
Shock Grenades have like no range and an additional AP on the pistol isn't worth two points.
It absolutely is when you shut down an entire gunline and shove three Bike/VanVet teams down your enemies throat by bypassing overwatch.
Overwatch is never dangerous outside super niche scenarios, and those dangerous weapons are absorbed with those super cheap Storm Shields you can carry.
Chill out, Slayer. You're in a Deathwatch thread. You aren't even picking the right meta picks on anything you take.
Let people spend 2 meager points for situationally cool abilities and stop being such a damn piss poor community member about every. little. thing.
Now, for anybody that actually likes playing this game and Deathwatch Primaris in general, a Reiver is a good upgrade for a bully unit, and I approve of the combat squad with 3 Intercessors, an Aggressor, and a Reiver - super fun and effective.
Versatilebeats wrote: With the sob excorcist moving to d6 damage what are everyone’s thoughts on a 3 excorcist plus canoness for anti tank? 3d6 shots for d6 damage a piece rerollimg 1s to hit. For a little over 400 pts. Should by my mathhammer be able to take out a Knight in 1 round
I mean...I guess theoretically they could take out a knight in one round? but then again, theoretically, so can any 4 lascannon shots - you just need to roll 4 6s for damage.
On average three exorcists cause 9.3 wounds to a knight in one round, if it doesn't decide to take advantage of any of the extra defenses that most knights use (bare minimum a 4++, usually a 3++.)
the exact same points spend on 2 quadlas contemptors and a barebones watch captain causes 16.1 damage to that knight.
Do exorcists need LOS? Just curious. I mean it shoots missiles straight up like missiles off of American frigates and subs do now and they don't have direct line of sight.
Overwatch is never dangerous outside super niche scenarios, and those dangerous weapons are absorbed with those super cheap Storm Shields you can carry.
Not even close to reality, but sure. Fine. Save your two points and embrace the meta cookie cutter.
So nice to see the "hey we've got storm shields, we dont give a feth about actually thinking" mindset is already kicking in.
Except Overwatch really isn't dangerous.
Provide a list and the math, then. I'm looking forward to reading your findings.
Sterling191 wrote: It’s 2 points for shock grenades and terror troops, plus a potentially nasty AP-3 shot in melee. They’re not gonna win battles by themselves, but they’re tricks folks don’t expect to get hit by.
Shock Grenades have like no range and an additional AP on the pistol isn't worth two points.
It absolutely is when you shut down an entire gunline and shove three Bike/VanVet teams down your enemies throat by bypassing overwatch.
Overwatch is never dangerous outside super niche scenarios, and those dangerous weapons are absorbed with those super cheap Storm Shields you can carry.
Chill out, Slayer. You're in a Deathwatch thread. You aren't even picking the right meta picks on anything you take.
Let people spend 2 meager points for situationally cool abilities and stop being such a damn piss poor community member about every. little. thing.
Now, for anybody that actually likes playing this game and Deathwatch Primaris in general, a Reiver is a good upgrade for a bully unit, and I approve of the combat squad with 3 Intercessors, an Aggressor, and a Reiver - super fun and effective.
Then the challenge extends to you. Provide a list of ALL the dangerous Overwatch and the math behind it.
How about the doppelganger with 2 Frag Cannons? They alone will probably kill 3-4 stormshield troops (because you're going to have reroll 1s to wound on them fro troops vs Deathwatch). Then factor in the stormbolters. haven't done the full math but 7 stormbolters, 2 frag cannons and 2 bolt pistols (assuming sgt, terminator, VV, 7 SB/SS) I'm guessing you're losing approx 6 marines on way (tanking on the terminator will really help vs the SB shots)
I agree that you can be a bit confrontational Slayer, but you're right, there's not many overwatch threats that Reivers shut down!
Big units of Dakkabots, leviathans with WM/CM support, and the big boys, Tau sept, are some examples of high-threat overwatch units. None of them are very bothered by the reiver's grenade - because a) it only works on infantry and b) tau sept trait still allows you to shoot with other closeby units, even if the unit being charged can't overwatch.
grouchoben wrote: I agree that you can be a bit confrontational Slayer, but you're right, there's not many overwatch threats that Reivers shut down!
Big units of Dakkabots, leviathans with WM/CM support, and the big boys, Tau sept, are some examples of high-threat overwatch units. None of them are very bothered by the reiver's grenade - because a) it only works on infantry and b) tau sept trait still allows you to shoot with other closeby units, even if the unit being charged can't overwatch.
Whilst I agree that the reiver grenade is of limited usefulness stating that overwatch is not dangerous is imo off the mark.
It may be that your local group doesn't play certain armies but in general tau and orks can put out pretty punishing overwatch, anything with flamer style weapons can often be unchangeable- castellan or wraithguard for an extreme examples. Guard vehicles can use a strat to hit better on OW and any large unit can just use weight of fire to push a few hits through.
Whilst most standard squads aren't particularly threatening on OW and I rarely let it discourage me if I think the combat with be useful for me In game terms overwatch can often cause unexpected casualties and for such an elite army as deathwatch is certainly not something we can afford to ignore.
Whether this makes the couple of extra points for a reiver worth it likely comes down to whether you have a couple of points spare after taking everything else you need - they are a pretty sweet model though and that is often reason enough
I was mulling some thoughts over in my blog, figured I’d get a more focused answer here. One of my goals for the year is to bolster my DW army. Right now it’s a foot librarian, captain Atremis, an old 10 man squad with bolters and 2xHFs (designed to play as sternguard in previous editions) and 5 intercessors (bolt rifles). I have built a ven dread, 2 inceptors, an 5 intercessors w/ assault rifles
Army plan:
Spoiler:
The army core:
2 Fortis kill teams, one DS with rapid fire guns, one on table with assault. Both mixed with all options minus hellblasters.
1 Frag-heavy KT of vets to DS.
TLLC/ML ven dread
Past that I’m not sure what direction to go. Due to cost constraints I was planning on keeping this primarily an infantry force. Mostly because I have a number of spare PA bodies kicking around that can be tithed to The Watch.
Build plans
Spoiler:
I have the following DW shoulder pads:
5 TDA 12 reg. PA pads (one is not a full pad, but close enough from the GK kit)
11 Mk. 8 pads from the DW kit itself.
Most of the Mk. 8 pads are still on full DW vet sprues from the SC box.
TDA pads:
3 agressors (have kit)
1 inceptor (last from the DI box)
1 unclaimed
Reg pads:
5 reivers (have kit)
2 Vanguard Vets (have JPs, will kitbash from spare bodies)
5 Mk. III stormbolter/chainsword vets (SBs from the BaC capheracti terminators)
If I use the TDA pad somewhere, that frees up one more PA pad. I do have an unbuilt bike still on sprue. That might take the last of the pads. Fallback, shoot, charge does sound saucy and fun.
Other thoughts that might be more long-term.
Spoiler:
I’ve got a lot of spare MLs kicking around. Building a DWDev squad might not be a bad idea. I kinda like the idea of combat squadding 3 bikes and 2 VV off to roam around and kill things while the sarge and the MLs sit back and shoot stuff. That would require more bikes. And more shoulder pads to make another 10 guys.
A JP captain would give me a re-roll bubble to drop down with teleported squads. Or a TDA captain.
So long term things to buy:
another accessory sprue
3 bike box
AM/VV box? I really like the running legs. This could provide parts for a DWJP captain, the DWVV, and 2 more characters, either for DW or my Ultras. Not required, but could be fun.
5 hellblasters to add some forward AV to the foris KTs.
WisdomLS wrote: Whilst I agree that the reiver grenade is of limited usefulness stating that overwatch is not dangerous is imo off the mark.
It may be that your local group doesn't play certain armies but in general tau and orks can put out pretty punishing overwatch, anything with flamer style weapons can often be unchangeable- castellan or wraithguard for an extreme examples. Guard vehicles can use a strat to hit better on OW and any large unit can just use weight of fire to push a few hits through.
Whilst most standard squads aren't particularly threatening on OW and I rarely let it discourage me if I think the combat with be useful for me In game terms overwatch can often cause unexpected casualties and for such an elite army as deathwatch is certainly not something we can afford to ignore.
Whether this makes the couple of extra points for a reiver worth it likely comes down to whether you have a couple of points spare after taking everything else you need - they are a pretty sweet model though and that is often reason enough
And the only listed extreme threat you listed that the grenade shuts off is the Wraithguard, who already have limited use as is, and luckily Vanguard can absorb those shots with cheap Storm Shields.
I already know it was brought up in a different thread, but Reivers are a pointless model that only has the model itself going for it. I WANT to like them, but they aren't good for anything but bitz. You can justify it's only 2 points, but those 2 points can buy a Storm Shield now. The latter is incredibly more useful.
This talk of reivers is for primarus marines, and how many DW are running Primaris? Except for some mortal wound spam intercept?
How many DW armies actually run Primaris? DW vets are better in all accounts unless mitigating mortal wound spam. I even own some DW intercessors etc, only time I use them if I am playing power level (they are cheap power for a battalion). I like all the old marines and I think the vet squads have way better rules and survivability/versatility/multi add units.
We don't have a lieutenant cause of our chapter tactics (though we could use that), yet we get primaris, they give us nothing.
Spectral Ceramite wrote: This talk of reivers is for primarus marines, and how many DW are running Primaris? Except for some mortal wound spam intercept?
How many DW armies actually run Primaris? DW vets are better in all accounts unless mitigating mortal wound spam. I even own some DW intercessors etc, only time I use them if I am playing power level (they are cheap power for a battalion). I like all the old marines and I think the vet squads have way better rules and survivability/versatility/multi add units.
We don't have a lieutenant cause of our chapter tactics (though we could use that), yet we get primaris, they give us nothing.
Weeeelp....I'd use a Primaris apothecary maybe! With marines doing so much of our wound tanking these days, and individual marines being ~20pts, this guy only needs to save/heal 3 dudes before he's worth it. I guess if you were using a lot of expensive marines (possibly like Terminators with meltafists/whirlwind launchers, frag cannon boys, combiplas/SS vets) then you could get your value out of the apothecary in just a couple turns by reviving them. He can also be quite nice to heal wounded characters, and I've found my characters tend to stick around surprisingly long with marines. I know it's...unusual, to say the least, but my last game I had a captain, chaplain and libby tank two rounds against a knight warden in melee, cause enough wounds for me to easily finish it off in shooting and the only one I lost was the chappie in the second round. Dude was a champ with those 4++ saves and he kept rolling 1 for his damage from the kick attacks. I could've probably gotten a lot more mileage out of the captain afterwards if I'd had an apothecary around to heal him up.
I just wish he was an HQ, he'd be in WAY more of my lists if that were the case.
Otherwise, like I said earlier, the biggest advantage of primaris teams is totally separated from the game. It's the "40$ total off ebay for the squad, no extra bits needed" that would have me going for a 5 inter 5 hellblast squad way before I went for the admittedly superior in game 5 ss/sb 5 combi-plas/ss vet team.
Looking over their rules, I don't hate the Plasma inceptors. Native DS, good flexibility over the standard plasma that has to be within 12", fast enough move with long enough range that if you had a good spot to tuck them out of LOS you could give them turn 1 threat, and they put out the same weight of plasma fire as two plasma vets. The biggest problem is the lack of invulns to tank for them and the weakness to D2 weaponry that plagues all primaris. Really wish they'd given that fancy gravis armor +1W and +1T. Actually, I think I might like Intercessor/Inceptor squads even better than the intercessor/hellblasters just because if you're committing to 5 intercessors to tank you might as well take the absolute most weight of plasma fire you can muster.
Agressors just seem to be trying to do Deathwatch's anti-chaff shtick, but worse because they can't wound everything on 2s and have no invulns. And in an anti-knight meta, you'd be nuts to bring a land raider and same goes for its flying equivalent. Split your anti tank into smaller dreadnought-shaped squads.
I just wish he was an HQ, he'd be in WAY more of my lists if that were the case.
Eh, with his lack of customization and a cost only a smidge below Watch Captains, I don't think they'd see much play even in the HQ slot.
the_scotsman wrote: Actually, I think I might like Intercessor/Inceptor squads even better than the intercessor/hellblasters just because if you're committing to 5 intercessors to tank you might as well take the absolute most weight of plasma fire you can muster.
While I like the concept (and have seen it in action a handful of times), at 385 points a pop it's a crazy expensive squad thats gonna draw fire from every enemy weapon on the board.
Spectral Ceramite wrote: This talk of reivers is for primarus marines, and how many DW are running Primaris? Except for some mortal wound spam intercept?
Spectral Ceramite wrote: This talk of reivers is for primarus marines, and how many DW are running Primaris? Except for some mortal wound spam intercept?
How many DW armies actually run Primaris? DW vets are better in all accounts unless mitigating mortal wound spam. I even own some DW intercessors etc, only time I use them if I am playing power level (they are cheap power for a battalion). I like all the old marines and I think the vet squads have way better rules and survivability/versatility/multi add units.
We don't have a lieutenant cause of our chapter tactics (though we could use that), yet we get primaris, they give us nothing.
Weeeelp....I'd use a Primaris apothecary maybe! With marines doing so much of our wound tanking these days, and individual marines being ~20pts, this guy only needs to save/heal 3 dudes before he's worth it. I guess if you were using a lot of expensive marines (possibly like Terminators with meltafists/whirlwind launchers, frag cannon boys, combiplas/SS vets) then you could get your value out of the apothecary in just a couple turns by reviving them. He can also be quite nice to heal wounded characters, and I've found my characters tend to stick around surprisingly long with marines. I know it's...unusual, to say the least, but my last game I had a captain, chaplain and libby tank two rounds against a knight warden in melee, cause enough wounds for me to easily finish it off in shooting and the only one I lost was the chappie in the second round. Dude was a champ with those 4++ saves and he kept rolling 1 for his damage from the kick attacks. I could've probably gotten a lot more mileage out of the captain afterwards if I'd had an apothecary around to heal him up.
I just wish he was an HQ, he'd be in WAY more of my lists if that were the case.
Otherwise, like I said earlier, the biggest advantage of primaris teams is totally separated from the game. It's the "40$ total off ebay for the squad, no extra bits needed" that would have me going for a 5 inter 5 hellblast squad way before I went for the admittedly superior in game 5 ss/sb 5 combi-plas/ss vet team.
Looking over their rules, I don't hate the Plasma inceptors. Native DS, good flexibility over the standard plasma that has to be within 12", fast enough move with long enough range that if you had a good spot to tuck them out of LOS you could give them turn 1 threat, and they put out the same weight of plasma fire as two plasma vets. The biggest problem is the lack of invulns to tank for them and the weakness to D2 weaponry that plagues all primaris. Really wish they'd given that fancy gravis armor +1W and +1T. Actually, I think I might like Intercessor/Inceptor squads even better than the intercessor/hellblasters just because if you're committing to 5 intercessors to tank you might as well take the absolute most weight of plasma fire you can muster.
Agressors just seem to be trying to do Deathwatch's anti-chaff shtick, but worse because they can't wound everything on 2s and have no invulns. And in an anti-knight meta, you'd be nuts to bring a land raider and same goes for its flying equivalent. Split your anti tank into smaller dreadnought-shaped squads.
I see the viability of an apothecary, but for the points compared to points back idk. I have trialed a few times, but because my big squads teleport in, the apoth is not there to utilise his ability so is stuck back with the average units. Few times got him up idk, think points spent better else where.
I have a big DW army so money is not a real factor for me. But for others, you want to spend say $120AU on a unit that is good and looks average or $150AU (arbitrary numbers, I customise all my units a lot idk what spend on them) on a unit that is great and looks awesome (with customisation, I know what I would/have picked). I have trialed a lot of different units and layouts in games (I have math hammered a bit, but actually played them a lot). In a position I can run anything I want and found (for my play style), honestly primaris...are crap, DW veterans (with vanguards/termies etc) kick the gak out of them.
Just my play style and I travel a lot so different opponents but is how I roll. I just cant justify primaris in a list tbh unless playing power.
But each to own, if want to run them more power to ya and have fun.
Yeah, the biggest struggle primaris have is that the second you present your opponent with one good target and a bunch of bad targets, the one good target will hoover up every bit of fire that could have been lost shooting the bad ones.
I want every available target for my opponent's short-range anti-elite shooting weapons to be a storm shield, or a vehicle outside of double-tapping/melta range.
if i bring a unit of Primaris, suddenly that's out the window, and my opponent can bring every plasma gun to bear efficiently against something that doesn't have an invuln to make it worth less.
That's why to me the ideal setup is all infantry protected by invulns (Or cheap chaff that is inefficient to shoot with antielite weapons) and all vehicles being longrange sitting in backline, ideally also all protected by invulns.
Every anti-chaff weapon is made inefficient by basic toughness and high save.
Every anti-elite weapon is made inefficient by a storm shield
Every anti-tank weapon is made (slightly) more inefficient by a 5++ invuln, and some weapons by the fact that my tanks sit at 36" and there's a pile of bodies in the midboard making 12-24" range weapons more difficult to bring to bear.
I honestly think GW made a bit of an error with our new vets. They are now head and shoulders above our primaris, who themselves are leagues ahead of most marine troops.
grouchoben wrote: I honestly think GW made a bit of an error with our new vets. They are now head and shoulders above our primaris, who themselves are leagues ahead of most marine troops.
grouchoben wrote: I honestly think GW made a bit of an error with our new vets. They are now head and shoulders above our primaris, who themselves are leagues ahead of most marine troops.
I'm fine with the price points of the units. I'm NOT fine with the pricing of Storm Shields. That was honestly ridiculous.
grouchoben wrote: 25pts->20pts is a 20% drop on SS/SB Vets, that's one of the biggest drops in CA. And it fell on what was already one of our very top picks.
That's all. Hey, I love it for my army, I'm just sayin.
That would fall in line with the rumor of minimarines getting a 20% drop were correct.
Most of my minimarines have generally been repurposed Vets now. I think this was the intent...not a mistake.
SS/SB vets are definitely cool on paper, but my ass isn't buying all the bits to make them. Although if I didn't get all these primaris marines for practically free I would probably do a squad or two. I'll shoot for the cool factor instead.
How many terminators are you guys bringing in your squads? One is good obviously, but lately I've been making lists with 2 for added bullet catching. Firepower in the unit stays the same and it's only maginally more expensive.
Creeping Dementia wrote: How many terminators are you guys bringing in your squads? One is good obviously, but lately I've been making lists with 2 for added bullet catching. Firepower in the unit stays the same and it's only maginally more expensive.
2 is a good number. I also put 2 bikes in each unit as well. these 4 models become my 2+ save, Mortal wound catchers
I've found I've been perfectly happy with just 1 and haven't felt the need for more than that JUST yet. There is worth into figuring out the advantages of even more Terminators though.
An idea stolen from this thread https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/769792.page Seems like it could be a solution to a couple issues we have. We lack a good transport that has both survivability and contributes decent firepower, particularly anti-tank firepower. The Achilles has both of those.
A Landraider with 19 wounds, 4+ invuln, and a bunch of high strength shooting. Transport capacity isn't great, but it can offload small shortranged squads pretty reliably.
I'm not sure I'll be running out to buy a couple, but the idea is intriguing.
Creeping Dementia wrote: An idea stolen from this thread https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/769792.page Seems like it could be a solution to a couple issues we have. We lack a good transport that has both survivability and contributes decent firepower, particularly anti-tank firepower. The Achilles has both of those.
A Landraider with 19 wounds, 4+ invuln, and a bunch of high strength shooting. Transport capacity isn't great, but it can offload small shortranged squads pretty reliably.
I'm not sure I'll be running out to buy a couple, but the idea is intriguing.
I quite like it from a thematic point of view as I think it will look cool on the table and it's makes sense for death watch to have gucci toys.
Tactically I think it has a lot of plus points offering a lot of anti-tank weapons that DW needs on one platform giving good bang for your buck with doctrine stratagems and storm bolter vets seem like the perfect unit to throw in there. On the downside not sure it's tough enough for its points, especially when DW can give ranged vehicles a 5+ easily.
I've been looking at FW myself for vehicles that would work well with DW, the leviathan and mortis dreadnoughts previously mentioned still seem to have, the best points to cost ratio, but the achilles, helios and spartan all have a lot of weaponry one unit (8 lascannons potentially wounding on 2s with the spartan) and while the spartan is very expensive it can still shoot in combat.
Creeping Dementia wrote: An idea stolen from this thread https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/769792.page Seems like it could be a solution to a couple issues we have. We lack a good transport that has both survivability and contributes decent firepower, particularly anti-tank firepower. The Achilles has both of those.
A Landraider with 19 wounds, 4+ invuln, and a bunch of high strength shooting. Transport capacity isn't great, but it can offload small shortranged squads pretty reliably.
I'm not sure I'll be running out to buy a couple, but the idea is intriguing.
We definitely need more dedicated tank killers. For sure. Going the FW route, the Achilles isn't the answer we need. It suffers from one key thing that all the other Land Raiders suffer from, and for once it isn't a durability issue:
A mere Gaunt can charge one and stop it from shooting. With the weapons being 24" in range, it wouldn't exactly be hard to pull off either.
I tried running this unit against a Tyranid army the other day. It didn't do bad at all. It is quite expensive, but packs a huge defensive punch.
Veteran Squad:
3x Veteran w/ Shotgun
2x Veteran w/ Frag Cannon
2x Veteran w/ Infernus Heavy Bolter
1x Terminator w/ Heavy Flamer, Power Fist
1x Terminator w/ Heavy Flamer, Power Fist, Melta Gun
That is 11 D6 flamer profiles at varying strengths/ranges. I melted a unit of 30 Hormagaunts, and took a unit of 30 (I think that was the number) Gene Stealers down to 4. They also aren't slouches at range. They took down a Carnifex outside flamer range quickly.
The unit size also fits in a Corvus Blackstar if you wanted to fly them in.
Had my second game of 8th today using my death watch and did pretty well, he took Ultramarines with calgar with a small death watch detachment. I lost 15-16 but one more turn id have won heavily.
Basically I sat quite far back and slugged it out with him then dropped in my vets and big squad of plasma intercessors and wiped multiple enemy units of the board. He had very little left and my units really did very well but I was not decisive enough to move units forward quickly to take objectives. Need some faster units to help me out grabbing objectives later in the game. I really fancy some inceptors or maybe an allied detachment with some scout bikers but I'm not sure yet.
Rogerio134134 wrote: I really fancy some inceptors or maybe an allied detachment with some scout bikers but I'm not sure yet.
Combat squadded Veterans with 3 bikes, 2 Vanguard Vets. 12" movement, 14 SIA shots out to 15", Obsec and two stormshields, all at a T5 stat line to mess with incoming S8 and S9 fire.
Also, Bikes in this fashion arent technically <BIKER> keyworded for anything other than fitting in transports. That means they can move through a whole lot more stuff than say allied Scout Bikes.
reevesshady wrote: I tried running this unit against a Tyranid army the other day. It didn't do bad at all. It is quite expensive, but packs a huge defensive punch.
Veteran Squad:
3x Veteran w/ Shotgun
2x Veteran w/ Frag Cannon
2x Veteran w/ Infernus Heavy Bolter
1x Terminator w/ Heavy Flamer, Power Fist
1x Terminator w/ Heavy Flamer, Power Fist, Melta Gun
That is 11 D6 flamer profiles at varying strengths/ranges. I melted a unit of 30 Hormagaunts, and took a unit of 30 (I think that was the number) Gene Stealers down to 4. They also aren't slouches at range. They took down a Carnifex outside flamer range quickly.
The unit size also fits in a Corvus Blackstar if you wanted to fly them in.
Situational, but fun!
I guess I am just not seeing a situation where I'd ever want an infernus heavy bolter over one of these options:
-Regular Heavy Bolter. If I want to use the stratagem for mortal wounds.
-Frag Cannon. If I'm in for that many points, might as well get the big flamer!
-combi-flamer. Nearly as strong, and not...thirty points...
I think shotguns are fun (and underrated, overshadowed as they are by the almighty storm bolter). You deal slightly less than half the storm bolter does on the deep strike down but you do add a lot of protection vs chaff with the wyrmbreath overwatch and cryptclearer can be really useful for chunking out two wound models. Basically they're an investment into the squad doing something more than jst deep striking and getting in one shot.
As a Death Guard player who doesn't play against Deathwatch very often, what do I need to watch out for a in a competitive game? I know there are really nasty flamers in the infantry squads and that the flyers are really good, but I don't know what else to be aware of in terms of scary units, weird stratagems, etc.
Virules wrote: As a Death Guard player who doesn't play against Deathwatch very often, what do I need to watch out for a in a competitive game? I know there are really nasty flamers in the infantry squads and that the flyers are really good, but I don't know what else to be aware of in terms of scary units, weird stratagems, etc.
The biggest concern is probably going to be the poison 2+ ammo on their basic guns. Any spells, stratagems, whatever that make you tougher via adding to the Toughness stat should be basically ignored. They have an acute weakness to mortal wounds, so the plaguecasters should be pretty effective against them if properly screened. Dumping in mortal wounds in the psychic phase should probably convince the deathwatch player to take out the Terminators in the squad (since they have 2W) then in the shooting phase the bolter/ss guys can be dakka'd to death with small arms 0AP fire pretty efficiently.
If its a full Deathwatch list then you're gonna need to remember that effectively any infantry or biker model you see (barring HQs) is almost certainly going to have ObSec.
In objective games a good DW player will really screw with you in regards to what you have to kill to deny objective scoring.
Virules wrote: As a Death Guard player who doesn't play against Deathwatch very often, what do I need to watch out for a in a competitive game? I know there are really nasty flamers in the infantry squads and that the flyers are really good, but I don't know what else to be aware of in terms of scary units, weird stratagems, etc.
1: the fliers aren't really good, if he's bringing fliers you're getting off easy.
2: nearly every unit will be ObSec, and tough to bring down (3++ invulns, terminators saves, and toughness 5 bikes, all in the same unit). If he's good then it will be vet squads, Primaris aren't as good as the miniMarine squads. The troop squads can be configured to handle any role he feels like, super customizable.
3: your high toughness won't help you, unless they are vehicles. Special issue ammo will wound everything except your vehicles on a 2+. He will blow through your tougher than normal infantry/Monsters/characters faster than you think
4: he may be deceptively mobile. Beacon Angelis can pull a squad across the table and he can deepstrike three units (potentially more). Also may have bike/vanguard combat squads that are fast and ObSec.
5: His range may be better than you think, Special Ammo may extend his range by 6 inches.
6: he's more likely to win because he scores on everything rather than just from killing stuff. Better players when facing a bad matchup may still win just by obliterating the opposing troops in the first couple turns and then outscoring the opposition the rest of the game (because most of the Deathwatch are ObSec troops).
7: weaknesses are A: Mortal Wounds can be rough for Deathwatch. B: Vehicles can potentially be difficult and often players will soup in some anti tank help.
reevesshady wrote: I tried running this unit against a Tyranid army the other day. It didn't do bad at all. It is quite expensive, but packs a huge defensive punch.
Veteran Squad:
3x Veteran w/ Shotgun
2x Veteran w/ Frag Cannon
2x Veteran w/ Infernus Heavy Bolter
1x Terminator w/ Heavy Flamer, Power Fist
1x Terminator w/ Heavy Flamer, Power Fist, Melta Gun
That is 11 D6 flamer profiles at varying strengths/ranges. I melted a unit of 30 Hormagaunts, and took a unit of 30 (I think that was the number) Gene Stealers down to 4. They also aren't slouches at range. They took down a Carnifex outside flamer range quickly.
The unit size also fits in a Corvus Blackstar if you wanted to fly them in.
Situational, but fun!
I guess I am just not seeing a situation where I'd ever want an infernus heavy bolter over one of these options:
-Regular Heavy Bolter. If I want to use the stratagem for mortal wounds.
-Frag Cannon. If I'm in for that many points, might as well get the big flamer!
-combi-flamer. Nearly as strong, and not...thirty points...
I think shotguns are fun (and underrated, overshadowed as they are by the almighty storm bolter). You deal slightly less than half the storm bolter does on the deep strike down but you do add a lot of protection vs chaff with the wyrmbreath overwatch and cryptclearer can be really useful for chunking out two wound models. Basically they're an investment into the squad doing something more than jst deep striking and getting in one shot.
For what it's worth, I do think the round for rerolling all wounds has a purpose. The D2 one is kinda hard to pull off against the appropriate targets. Overwatch round is meh as well.
They really should've been a 2 point weapon. Then it would look like a sidegrade to the regular SIA Bolter.
So I bit the bullet and bought a relic leviathan dread to try in 1500-2k lists. How would I include it in my army list? As and auxiliary detachment at -1CP ? Ive seen many people taking one but I did not see how they were doing it.
ItsPug wrote: You need to include one other heavy support choice in the same detachment as well due to the relic rule, so you cannot use an auxiliary detachment.
what do people usually take? It has to be forgeworld right?
ItsPug wrote: You need to include one other heavy support choice in the same detachment as well due to the relic rule, so you cannot use an auxiliary detachment.
what do people usually take? It has to be forgeworld right?
Nope. Any non-Relic heavy support choice. It's actually a significant downside to taking the Leviathan in the Deathwatch, though; I use 100pt Reiver squads to fill the Relic requirement for my Relic Contemptors, but if you want a plastic unit to fill the Relic requirement for a Leviathan your cheapest pick is five Hellblasters at 165pts.
Opening up Forge World for consideration I'd suggest looking at Mortis Dreadnaughts since they're both non-Relic Heavy Support units that you can build out of plastic kits (with a bit of surgery/spare parts); the regular one inexplicably didn't get a price drop to line up with the regular Castaferrum so it's probably better to take the Contemptor since it's a 13pt upgrade to get two extra wounds, a 5++, and starting BS of 2+ (though on a degrading table). Load it with lascannons and it's a similar price to the Hellblasters but tougher and notably superior at engaging targets more than 15" away.
ItsPug wrote: You need to include one other heavy support choice in the same detachment as well due to the relic rule, so you cannot use an auxiliary detachment.
what do people usually take? It has to be forgeworld right?
Nope. Any non-Relic heavy support choice. It's actually a significant downside to taking the Leviathan in the Deathwatch, though; I use 100pt Reiver squads to fill the Relic requirement for my Relic Contemptors, but if you want a plastic unit to fill the Relic requirement for a Leviathan your cheapest pick is five Hellblasters at 165pts.
Opening up Forge World for consideration I'd suggest looking at Mortis Dreadnaughts since they're both non-Relic Heavy Support units that you can build out of plastic kits (with a bit of surgery/spare parts); the regular one inexplicably didn't get a price drop to line up with the regular Castaferrum so it's probably better to take the Contemptor since it's a 13pt upgrade to get two extra wounds, a 5++, and starting BS of 2+ (though on a degrading table). Load it with lascannons and it's a similar price to the Hellblasters but tougher and notably superior at engaging targets more than 15" away.
Whats the significant downside? Isnt being able to deepstrike it and use other strats on it a significant? I do have a old metal dread I converted into a auto cannon rifleman dread I though about using as a mortis.
TheunlikelyGamer wrote: Whats the significant downside? Isnt being able to deepstrike it and use other strats on it a significant? I do have a old metal dread I converted into a auto cannon rifleman dread I though about using as a mortis.
Tax units you don't really want (Land Raiders, Hellblasters without ObSec that don't have cheap ablative bodies in front of them). Autocannon Mortis fills the requirements to field the Leviathan more cheaply than most alternatives, it isn't something i'd normally think to take so I shall look forward to hearing how it performs for you.
TheunlikelyGamer wrote: Whats the significant downside? Isnt being able to deepstrike it and use other strats on it a significant? I do have a old metal dread I converted into a auto cannon rifleman dread I though about using as a mortis.
Tax units you don't really want (Land Raiders, Hellblasters without ObSec that don't have cheap ablative bodies in front of them). Autocannon Mortis fills the requirements to field the Leviathan more cheaply than most alternatives, it isn't something i'd normally think to take so I shall look forward to hearing how it performs for you.
I was originally going to take the leviathan with two storm cannon array but if I take the mortis that may be too many autocannons( if there is such a thing). What is the preferred weapon loadout dual grav flux bombards or dual stom cannon or one of each? I typically only take a single redemptor with gatling cannons sand dep strike it so using the Lev and Mort will be different.
TheunlikelyGamer wrote: Whats the significant downside? Isnt being able to deepstrike it and use other strats on it a significant? I do have a old metal dread I converted into a auto cannon rifleman dread I though about using as a mortis.
Tax units you don't really want (Land Raiders, Hellblasters without ObSec that don't have cheap ablative bodies in front of them). Autocannon Mortis fills the requirements to field the Leviathan more cheaply than most alternatives, it isn't something i'd normally think to take so I shall look forward to hearing how it performs for you.
I was originally going to take the leviathan with two storm cannon array but if I take the mortis that may be too many autocannons( if there is such a thing). What is the preferred weapon loadout dual grav flux bombards or dual stom cannon or one of each? I typically only take a single redemptor with gatling cannons sand dep strike it so using the Lev and Mort will be different.
I have found the grav cannons to be fun, but way too swingy for competitive. Storm cannons have amazing synergy with +1 to wound stratagem. As your 20 autocannon shots are now closer to 20 overcharged plasma shots (that would T6 and below on 2's). You're likely only going to get one shooting phase at full profile, so make it count.
TheunlikelyGamer wrote: Whats the significant downside? Isnt being able to deepstrike it and use other strats on it a significant? I do have a old metal dread I converted into a auto cannon rifleman dread I though about using as a mortis.
Tax units you don't really want (Land Raiders, Hellblasters without ObSec that don't have cheap ablative bodies in front of them). Autocannon Mortis fills the requirements to field the Leviathan more cheaply than most alternatives, it isn't something i'd normally think to take so I shall look forward to hearing how it performs for you.
I was originally going to take the leviathan with two storm cannon array but if I take the mortis that may be too many autocannons( if there is such a thing). What is the preferred weapon loadout dual grav flux bombards or dual stom cannon or one of each? I typically only take a single redemptor with gatling cannons sand dep strike it so using the Lev and Mort will be different.
I have found the grav cannons to be fun, but way too swingy for competitive. Storm cannons have amazing synergy with +1 to wound stratagem. As your 20 autocannon shots are now closer to 20 overcharged plasma shots (that would T6 and below on 2's). You're likely only going to get one shooting phase at full profile, so make it count.
What if I were to cast Might of heroes on him? would that likely increase his usefulness for more than a turn? T9 2+/4++ sounds good to me against most non competitive lists. my Meta is filled mostly with "Fluff bunnies" so in the event I did take it to a tournament I feel the leviathan could be nasty. Right after our codex dropped I took an all infantry list to a 1k tourney and mopped the floor with everyone.
Are there any Dakka Dreadnoughts? Im looking for one but as it seems the best dakka platform we have is the razorback? ( apart from our basic troops with SB or Aggressors)
ImPhaeronWeasel wrote: Are there any Dakka Dreadnoughts? Im looking for one but as it seems the best dakka platform we have is the razorback? ( apart from our basic troops with SB or Aggressors)
I have used the redemptor dread with heavy onslaught, onslaught, and dual storm bolters to great effect for 155pts. Casting might of heroes on it would make it T8 13 wounds. our dreads can be deep struck also which is awesome for getting into that sweet spot shooting range.
TheunlikelyGamer wrote: Whats the significant downside? Isnt being able to deepstrike it and use other strats on it a significant? I do have a old metal dread I converted into a auto cannon rifleman dread I though about using as a mortis.
Tax units you don't really want (Land Raiders, Hellblasters without ObSec that don't have cheap ablative bodies in front of them). Autocannon Mortis fills the requirements to field the Leviathan more cheaply than most alternatives, it isn't something i'd normally think to take so I shall look forward to hearing how it performs for you.
I was originally going to take the leviathan with two storm cannon array but if I take the mortis that may be too many autocannons( if there is such a thing). What is the preferred weapon loadout dual grav flux bombards or dual stom cannon or one of each? I typically only take a single redemptor with gatling cannons sand dep strike it so using the Lev and Mort will be different.
I have found the grav cannons to be fun, but way too swingy for competitive. Storm cannons have amazing synergy with +1 to wound stratagem. As your 20 autocannon shots are now closer to 20 overcharged plasma shots (that would T6 and below on 2's). You're likely only going to get one shooting phase at full profile, so make it count.
What if I were to cast Might of heroes on him? would that likely increase his usefulness for more than a turn? T9 2+/4++ sounds good to me against most non competitive lists. my Meta is filled mostly with "Fluff bunnies" so in the event I did take it to a tournament I feel the leviathan could be nasty. Right after our codex dropped I took an all infantry list to a 1k tourney and mopped the floor with everyone.
MoH would definitely help, but generally if you're taking a Leviathan, you don't offer up many other armored targets, so literally every AT weapon in range is going to be pointed at him.
Also keep in mind a Knight Gallant is only like 49 more points for 10 more wounds, stupid fast movement, a better invuln to shooting for 1CP, and beastly close combat potential.
That said, if your local meta is non competitive, a single Leviathan should do great. They're a very solid choice. If the relic restriction wasn't a thing I'd seriously consider two of them in a list.
Also keep in mind a Knight Gallant is only like 49 more points for 10 more wounds, stupid fast movement, a better invuln to shooting for 1CP, and beastly close combat potential.
They're two fundamentally different unit roles, and the Gallant gets zero synergy from a Deathwatch army.
ImPhaeronWeasel wrote: Are there any Dakka Dreadnoughts? Im looking for one but as it seems the best dakka platform we have is the razorback? ( apart from our basic troops with SB or Aggressors)
I find that since the infantry kill enemy infantry so well the vehicles are better used to kill hard targets, since the infantry struggle some there. The basic Dreadnaught is quite cheap but it's actual options are somewhat limiting (the "dakka" loadout is twin-lascannon/ML); it does similar things to a lascannon Razorback with a bit more firepower and can't be used to bunker infantry. The FW Mortis/Contemptor-Mortis are a bit more expensive but are way more customizable since you get two of whatever gun you want, which make them cheaper per unit lascannon than either Razorbacks or standard Dreadnaughts.
I dislike the Redemptor generally; its guns are a bit more cost-effective than the guns on normal Dreadnaughts but its base price is 20+pts higher since you can't leave the powerfist behind, it's stuck at BS3+, and it can't replicate the ranged AT performance of a Castaferrum or a Contemptor with twin lascannons. I'm skeptical of the Onslaught loadout simply because infantry are never what my Deathwatch army struggles to kill, it's always armour that's the problem.
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Rogerio134134 wrote: Anyone use apothecarys? I used one in my last game he literally did nothing but I put him in to fill out a vanguard detachment.
I've tried. They're funny but they never seem to do much; my infantry never get into stand-up firefights, they're always angling for the alpha-strike and pushing down the table. I think if you were to take a big pseudo-Devastator squad with ML Veterans and Cyclone Terminators to sit on backfield objectives, take saves on your Terminators when possible, and use the Apothecary to bring the Terminators back if they went down they might be funny, but that feels like assembling a chunk of your list just to make the Apothecary do something.
The C.Mortis twin autocannon dread is only 148 points. Toss in the CML and it ends up points comparable to a Helverin for significantly better damage output.
Rogerio134134 wrote: Anyone use apothecarys? I used one in my last game he literally did nothing but I put him in to fill out a vanguard detachment.
I haven't found much use to them. While they work better with Deathwatch, you have to revive 4 dudes usually to get their cost back.
I know it isn't the correct thread, but I hypothetically them to be at least mediocre with Crimson Fists (the new Chapter Tactics for them), while using them to revive Assault Centurions, Aggressors, and Inceptors. Then they basically get a bonus at shooting anything, which is nice.
Also keep in mind a Knight Gallant is only like 49 more points for 10 more wounds, stupid fast movement, a better invuln to shooting for 1CP, and beastly close combat potential.
They're two fundamentally different unit roles, and the Gallant gets zero synergy from a Deathwatch army.
Their roles overlap a lot. They both kill big scary things, typically vehicles. Only the Gallant even without synergies can actually threaten a 3++ Knight whereas the Leviathan with full DW buffs/auras and stationary can expect to do 5-6 damage.
The Gallant fills a pretty important capability gap in the DW lineup, so I'm not seeing the argument for it having zero synergy unless you're strictly talking about auras and stratagems.
Any thoughts on Chaplain Dreadnaughts? I know they're not on Forgeworld anymore but they're out there on eBay. Character walkers with some nice fire power and buffs sounds pretty good to me
Virules wrote: As a Death Guard player who doesn't play against Deathwatch very often, what do I need to watch out for a in a competitive game? I know there are really nasty flamers in the infantry squads and that the flyers are really good, but I don't know what else to be aware of in terms of scary units, weird stratagems, etc.
1: the fliers aren't really good, if he's bringing fliers you're getting off easy.
2: nearly every unit will be ObSec, and tough to bring down (3++ invulns, terminators saves, and toughness 5 bikes, all in the same unit). If he's good then it will be vet squads, Primaris aren't as good as the miniMarine squads. The troop squads can be configured to handle any role he feels like, super customizable.
3: your high toughness won't help you, unless they are vehicles. Special issue ammo will wound everything except your vehicles on a 2+. He will blow through your tougher than normal infantry/Monsters/characters faster than you think
4: he may be deceptively mobile. Beacon Angelis can pull a squad across the table and he can deepstrike three units (potentially more). Also may have bike/vanguard combat squads that are fast and ObSec.
5: His range may be better than you think, Special Ammo may extend his range by 6 inches.
6: he's more likely to win because he scores on everything rather than just from killing stuff. Better players when facing a bad matchup may still win just by obliterating the opposing troops in the first couple turns and then outscoring the opposition the rest of the game (because most of the Deathwatch are ObSec troops).
7: weaknesses are A: Mortal Wounds can be rough for Deathwatch. B: Vehicles can potentially be difficult and often players will soup in some anti tank help.
That's really helpful, thanks. I'm taking three PBCs with spitters and a supporating plate prince and a 10-man unit of Blightlords to LVO. Sounds like it will be tough but I have some decent units for fighting Deathwatch.
Elfric wrote: Any thoughts on Chaplain Dreadnaughts? I know they're not on Forgeworld anymore but they're out there on eBay. Character walkers with some nice fire power and buffs sounds pretty good to me
They just provide the LD bubble and S5 basically don't they?
Elfric wrote: Any thoughts on Chaplain Dreadnaughts? I know they're not on Forgeworld anymore but they're out there on eBay. Character walkers with some nice fire power and buffs sounds pretty good to me
I have been intrigued with the Chaplain Dreadnought for a while. I would want to give it a twin lascannon and protect the backfield or have it walk up behind a veteran squad kitted out for durability. Those two lascannon shots would be near invulnerable to return fire since it has the character rule. It’s expensive though, just under 200pts.
Elfric wrote: Any thoughts on Chaplain Dreadnaughts? I know they're not on Forgeworld anymore but they're out there on eBay. Character walkers with some nice fire power and buffs sounds pretty good to me
I have been intrigued with the Chaplain Dreadnought for a while. I would want to give it a twin lascannon and protect the backfield or have it walk up behind a veteran squad kitted out for durability. Those two lascannon shots would be near invulnerable to return fire since it has the character rule. It’s expensive though, just under 200pts.
In the long run it's just too expensive. My current list uses 3× Ven Dreads with the TLLas and ML, and then a Terminator Captain with a Relic Blade and Dominus Aegis. That's definitely cheaper for the firepower and arguably better durability.
I can't see any reason to take Stalker Bolters on DW Intercessors with the Beta rule.
Bolt Rifles will get 2 shots if you remain stationary and SIA gives you the extra range/AP if needed.
The problem is that bikers and terminators in a veteran squad only have the infantry keyword. So until they faq a biker to have the bike keyword and the terminator to have terminator keyword they won’t be able to benifit for the new bolter rule.
Yes they do have those keywords for the purpose of being inside a transport but that does not count for what they are for rules currently.
Does anyone bother with a Black Shield? The fact you're forced to heroic intervene always worries me and now they aren't even the same price as a regular Vet.
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IVIOOSE wrote: The problem is that bikers and terminators in a veteran squad only have the infantry keyword. So until they faq a biker to have the bike keyword and the terminator to have terminator keyword they won’t be able to benifit for the new bolter rule.
Yes they do have those keywords for the purpose of being inside a transport but that does not count for what they are for rules currently.
It’s very RAW not RAI
Ick, that's a good point. If DW can use the current keywording to drive bikes thru terrain regular bikes can't, they can't use the bike keyword to bolter.
bort wrote: Does anyone bother with a Black Shield? The fact you're forced to heroic intervene always worries me and now they aren't even the same price as a regular Vet....
If the idea of a melee Kill-Team really appeals to you, maybe, but everything a Kill-Team does at range so wildly outclasses what they do in melee I find there isn't really much point.
zedsdead wrote: Incoming new Bolter rule making DW even better. Bikes and Termies in vet squads = real good.
Wait, they won't benefit all the time right? They only have the Terminator and Biker keywords for transport purposes. So they'll only get the bonus the other vets would, not all the time.
bort wrote: Does anyone bother with a Black Shield? The fact you're forced to heroic intervene always worries me and now they aren't even the same price as a regular Vet....
If the idea of a melee Kill-Team really appeals to you, maybe, but everything a Kill-Team does at range so wildly outclasses what they do in melee I find there isn't really much point.
bort wrote: Does anyone bother with a Black Shield? The fact you're forced to heroic intervene always worries me and now they aren't even the same price as a regular Vet.
I used to always add one since it was free and HI was never a bad thing when you could fall back and shoot. Extra movement, and sometimes a free round of combat since the opponent couldn't attack if the unit wasn't originally declared as a charge target. Since the combat phase is so useful for extra movement and shutting down my opponent's shooting, and I was already really close anyway, an extra 3 attack model with a power weapon was always valuable.
I think he's still worth it, but not the auto include he once was for me. If I need to shave a few points, I think he'd be the first to go.
bort wrote: Does anyone bother with a Black Shield? The fact you're forced to heroic intervene always worries me and now they aren't even the same price as a regular Vet.
I used to always add one since it was free and HI was never a bad thing when you could fall back and shoot. Extra movement, and sometimes a free round of combat since the opponent couldn't attack if the unit wasn't originally declared as a charge target. Since the combat phase is so useful for extra movement and shutting down my opponent's shooting, and I was already really close anyway, an extra 3 attack model with a power weapon was always valuable.
I think he's still worth it, but not the auto include he once was for me. If I need to shave a few points, I think he'd be the first to go.
...Aaah, that's what I always forget about, the fact that you can't be swung at unless declared as a target. I kept putting them in my list and then later I'd forget again and I'd have a fear in the back of my mind like, wait, what if he gets me HIing something I'd have rather skipped a few swings at cause it's gonna hurt too much?
bort wrote: Does anyone bother with a Black Shield? The fact you're forced to heroic intervene always worries me and now they aren't even the same price as a regular Vet.
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IVIOOSE wrote: The problem is that bikers and terminators in a veteran squad only have the infantry keyword. So until they faq a biker to have the bike keyword and the terminator to have terminator keyword they won’t be able to benifit for the new bolter rule.
Yes they do have those keywords for the purpose of being inside a transport but that does not count for what they are for rules currently.
It’s very RAW not RAI
Ick, that's a good point. If DW can use the current keywording to drive bikes thru terrain regular bikes can't, they can't use the bike keyword to bolter.
bort wrote: Too bad the stalker bolters are heavy and not rapid fire.
Why does this matter? They are two shots anyway at 30" range and -1. With kraken rds they shoot out to 36" and become -2. They are better then the bolters when stationary which is what the new rule benefits. Staying still and shooting twice at full range. The stalker is better. The gunvthat I think really gets a boost is stormbolters. Shooting 4 shots at 24" is nice with SIA.
bort wrote: Too bad the stalker bolters are heavy and not rapid fire.
Why does this matter? They are two shots anyway at 30" range and -1. With kraken rds they shoot out to 36" and become -2. They are better then the bolters when stationary which is what the new rule benefits. Staying still and shooting twice at full range. The stalker is better. The gunvthat I think really gets a boost is stormbolters. Shooting 4 shots at 24" is nice with SIA.
I think Stalkers are just AP0 aren't they?
Also nice to remember this rule with a Storm Bolter on a Terminator Captain with the Bane Bolts. 4 shots all the time is pretty darn good and gives more incentive to use that particular Relic.
bort wrote: Too bad the stalker bolters are heavy and not rapid fire.
Why does this matter? They are two shots anyway at 30" range and -1. With kraken rds they shoot out to 36" and become -2. They are better then the bolters when stationary which is what the new rule benefits. Staying still and shooting twice at full range. The stalker is better. The gunvthat I think really gets a boost is stormbolters. Shooting 4 shots at 24" is nice with SIA.
I think Stalkers are just AP0 aren't they?
Also nice to remember this rule with a Storm Bolter on a Terminator Captain with the Bane Bolts. 4 shots all the time is pretty darn good and gives more incentive to use that particular Relic.
Stalker is AP-1 I'm 100%. I just checked And I agree using the bane bolts in a captain wth storm bolter is awesome. So would using my watch masters guardian spear with castellan of black vault. 2 shots @ 30" -2 3dmg with kraken rds.
bort wrote: Too bad the stalker bolters are heavy and not rapid fire.
Why does this matter? They are two shots anyway at 30" range and -1. With kraken rds they shoot out to 36" and become -2. They are better then the bolters when stationary which is what the new rule benefits. Staying still and shooting twice at full range. The stalker is better. The gunvthat I think really gets a boost is stormbolters. Shooting 4 shots at 24" is nice with SIA.
Oh, oops, looks like I forgot to quote what I was referencing. Someone had suggested the stalkers as now they'd get 4 shots. I was saying they're not rapid fire.
bort wrote: Too bad the stalker bolters are heavy and not rapid fire.
Why does this matter? They are two shots anyway at 30" range and -1. With kraken rds they shoot out to 36" and become -2. They are better then the bolters when stationary which is what the new rule benefits. Staying still and shooting twice at full range. The stalker is better. The gunvthat I think really gets a boost is stormbolters. Shooting 4 shots at 24" is nice with SIA.
I think Stalkers are just AP0 aren't they?
Also nice to remember this rule with a Storm Bolter on a Terminator Captain with the Bane Bolts. 4 shots all the time is pretty darn good and gives more incentive to use that particular Relic.
Stalker is AP-1 I'm 100%. I just checked And I agree using the bane bolts in a captain wth storm bolter is awesome. So would using my watch masters guardian spear with castellan of black vault. 2 shots @ 30" -2 3dmg with kraken rds.
Ah okay. It's been a while since I've looked at the codex.
I like the point you bring up with the D3 Watch Master spear, but ultimately the number of shots from the Storm Bolter will go further.
Eldarain wrote: Between the points drops and today's changes I'm real tempted to try Terminators as more than squad upgrades.
5 dropping into cover (ideally on or near an objective) and being able to fire 20 SIA shots at 24" sounds pretty nice for 155.
It certainly sounds promising, and a possible competition for Aggressors, but I'm not entirely sold. Will probably try a few, but I dont expect miracles.
bort wrote: Too bad the stalker bolters are heavy and not rapid fire.
Why does this matter? They are two shots anyway at 30" range and -1. With kraken rds they shoot out to 36" and become -2. They are better then the bolters when stationary which is what the new rule benefits. Staying still and shooting twice at full range. The stalker is better. The gunvthat I think really gets a boost is stormbolters. Shooting 4 shots at 24" is nice with SIA.
I think Stalkers are just AP0 aren't they?
Also nice to remember this rule with a Storm Bolter on a Terminator Captain with the Bane Bolts. 4 shots all the time is pretty darn good and gives more incentive to use that particular Relic.
Stalker is AP-1 I'm 100%. I just checked And I agree using the bane bolts in a captain wth storm bolter is awesome. So would using my watch masters guardian spear with castellan of black vault. 2 shots @ 30" -2 3dmg with kraken rds.
Ah okay. It's been a while since I've looked at the codex.
I like the point you bring up with the D3 Watch Master spear, but ultimately the number of shots from the Storm Bolter will go further.
Ironically my lists always have both the watch master with castellan and the captain with SB and bane bolts. Ocassionally I'll add in a SB librarian.
bort wrote: Too bad the stalker bolters are heavy and not rapid fire.
Why does this matter? They are two shots anyway at 30" range and -1. With kraken rds they shoot out to 36" and become -2. They are better then the bolters when stationary which is what the new rule benefits. Staying still and shooting twice at full range. The stalker is better. The gunvthat I think really gets a boost is stormbolters. Shooting 4 shots at 24" is nice with SIA.
I think Stalkers are just AP0 aren't they?
Also nice to remember this rule with a Storm Bolter on a Terminator Captain with the Bane Bolts. 4 shots all the time is pretty darn good and gives more incentive to use that particular Relic.
Stalker is AP-1 I'm 100%. I just checked And I agree using the bane bolts in a captain wth storm bolter is awesome. So would using my watch masters guardian spear with castellan of black vault. 2 shots @ 30" -2 3dmg with kraken rds.
Ah okay. It's been a while since I've looked at the codex.
I like the point you bring up with the D3 Watch Master spear, but ultimately the number of shots from the Storm Bolter will go further.
Ironically my lists always have both the watch master with castellan and the captain with SB and bane bolts. Ocassionally I'll add in a SB librarian.
I'm super confused by this whole conversation. I just checked the Intercessor datasheet and Stalker bolt rifles are 36" Heavy 1 AP-2. Are you guys talking about a different Stalker bolter? Because the Intercessor one is basically pointless now that a regular Bolt Rifle can stand still and get 2 shots at 36" AP-2 using Kraken rounds. That's double the shots at the same range and AP
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And I agree using the bane bolts in a captain 