My thoughts would be "Yay!". I love the Corvus and regularly play it despite its problems.
My experience with it has swung around. I used to run it pure dakka with auspex, and it was underwhelming. These days I run it AT with inferno halum. Why? Well, it can't move. It needs to shoot things in the face, so it wants Watchmaster full rerolls, and no minus to hit. Otherwise it's just a glorified Rhino.
So I use it to bring my drop count down, and try to set it up within 9" of cover, so its kill team can jump out and get into cover. After that it acts as an expensive predator, basically.
bullyboy wrote: Couldn't stand the thought of just playing Primaris Deathwatch. Most of the interesting weapons are with the vets.
What would people's thoughts be if the Corvus was given POTMS?
POTMS absolutely necessary, and would definitely help it. But go further than that.
This is a special ops army, and what's more special ops than being delivered super quick in a lightning fast raid by air? The Corvus Blackstar should get the same Grav Chute Insertion rule of the Imperial Navy Valkyrie. That would make it unique among SM flyer transports, and would easily make it worth its current points as a quick strike transport tool with reliable firepower.
There are a boatload of ways I can think of where they could mine the flavour of Deathwatch to improve this unit, but they aren't really all that likely without a new data sheet, which right now means a new codex.
Played a game yesterday and just thought I'd report back my thoughts as a newish player to the faction.
Played against new orks with lots of truck boys, ghazzy, tankbusters, battlewagon and bikes plus new buggies.
I'm a traditional DW player and neither myself or my opponent were using optimised lists. I don't use primaris so fielded 3 mixed veteran squads, one close combat focused in a corvus, one closed ranged firepower focused in a landraider crusader and one long ranged with stalkers and a cyclone terminator. Had a watchmaster, terminator libby and 2 dreads.
To round it off I had the loyal 32, so hard not to take them even in a more casual game as I really need the bodies and command points.
A few things spring to mind, firstly my two expensive vehicles. The corvus really needs potms as it's accuracy is a problem for such a points heavy vehicle, deathwatch squads are too expensive to not have on the field so the transport capacity is really only useful for protecting stuff on turn one and maybe two.
The landraider did put out alot of fire but I was really conscious of not taking it anywhere near the orks for fear of getting locked in combat, hoping chapter approved gives it the ability to fire in combat as a points drop won't help with the fact it just can't do what it's supposed to do which is drive fearlessly into the heart of the enemy.
Dreads were both pretty good, I had a standard assault cannon/ dccw and a venerable twin las/ml. Both laid down shots all game long. I'm happy the dreadnought is usable this edition even if they aren't allstars.
Vet squads, these were the standouts in the list. The longer range one struggled against his mass of vehicles so I'm gonna look at getting an additional cyclone to stick in the unit.
The close range firepower squad (lots of stormbolters and a few frag cannons) just obliterated anything they focused on, they stuck with the watchmaster so the reroll helped alot.
The melee squad (heavy flamer term, some shotguns and a couple of thunderhammers and a few stormshields) were also great. Put out alot of overwatch hurt and had the survivability to take some big hits and stay in the fight.
One of my main take aways was how much the terminators add to the basic squads. Having the 2+ and a couple of wounds and using the odd command point reroll to keep them going made my squads really effective at weathering all the anti-infantry shooting the orks put out.
The loyal 32 were more or less all dead by turn 2, the cps were obviously good but as my main squads are protected turn one they just died on mass. I'd like to take them out for a few extra watch members and hope that chapter approved may give some kind of bonus for fielding a single faction force.
As I said earlier this isn't intended to be a super competetive army and I'm really building and painting it as a more hobby focused force but I like that they can at least perform reasonably well on the table and feel alot more like elite supersoldier whilst they do it
Anybody has any experience with Sicarian Destroyer tanks? Especially the Sicarian Venator Tank Destroyer?...The effect of its weapon sounds kinda nice (- to hit if it didnt destroy the target)
Also whats your opinion on normal Dreds with missle launcher and twin lascan vs. same loadout VenDreds vs. mortis Dreds with 2x twin Lascan vs. contemptor mortis Dred with 2x twin Lascan and missle launcher...These would be my alternatives to all the Relic units but there are just so many of them its hard to find a sweet spot of points spend/use of it
I'm coming round to ven dreads with twin las and ML! Parked a pair in my backfield for a few games now and they've shredded my opponent both times, with WM/ectoclades support. I suspect that's down to them being well suited both times, but the 2+ with rerolls and 3+ to wound rerolling 1s makes them super reliable. They won't set the world alight, but they often sneak into the endgame due to heavier, scarier priorities (eg xiphons, levs). Because they're so reliable, they can function as your anti-air to a degree: they have a 75% chance of forcing a wound through against a -2 hemlock for d6 damage each. That's handy in the right list.
I have a venator, and it's a great model, fairly big footprint. I rate it. It doesn't get mission tactics however, unlike levs and vens and such. The -1 to hit seems to rarely kick in in my experience. Knights auto-rotate against it! More mortal vehicles tend to die the same round. Their ideal prey would be baneblade chassis tanks, but I don't see many of them.
I think there's 0 reason to take to a normal dread if the venerable is an option. It's only 20pts more points for 2+ and 6+++. Mortis have better gun options, but I still don't think they're worth the loss of the Venerable perks. Contemptor vs Venerable have their pros and cons.
A rule question I have, which I'm sure has been asked and answered, but I must be looking for it wrong is, how does the DW Hellfire strat work with other chapter's Hellfire? What is the ruling for same titled stratagem, but one affects DW units and one affects [chapter]? Can both be used same turn or does it count as the same strat?
A rule question I have, which I'm sure has been asked and answered, but I must be looking for it wrong is, how does the DW Hellfire strat work with other chapter's Hellfire? What is the ruling for same titled stratagem, but one affects DW units and one affects [chapter]? Can both be used same turn or does it count as the same strat?
If the strategem name is the same they count as the same strategem. There was a note on this in the latest FAQs.
Ive read somewhere that Lascan Razorbacks are actually very point efficient AND give a nice 1st round protection to our units. Also with the new strat they habe a 2+ save which is nice I guess.
Another question. Do you guys have any preferable allies you use? Or do you play strictly mono Deathwatch?
I've yet to give my army a proper run out but my list is
Watch master with the tome
watch Captain with jump pack and hammer
Intercessors X 5 hellblasters X 2 kill team
Intercessors X 5 hellblasters X 2 kill team
Vets x 6 with frag cannons storm bolters
Vets x 5 with 3 combi meltas plus 2 storm bolter storm shield
2 ven dreads las and ml Primaris apothecary
Corvus
5 man hellblasters
Got other options but will give this list a whirl first, tempted to drop the corvus and add a Razorback and more hellblasters
ImPhaeronWeasel wrote: Ive read somewhere that Lascan Razorbacks are actually very point efficient AND give a nice 1st round protection to our units. Also with the new strat they habe a 2+ save which is nice I guess.
Another question. Do you guys have any preferable allies you use? Or do you play strictly mono Deathwatch?
The loyal 32 is boring yet effective, but I find it's worth picking up at least a Rune Priest and Dark Angels Librarian, either in separate detachments or together in a supreme command with something else (usually with another badass rune priest). Tempest's Wrath and Aversion are amazingly helpful defensive boosts, and both units are also a great source of MWs for killing super tough targets.
I prefer to add a Dark Angels battalion instead of going the supreme command route simply because scouts are amazing.
Knights are also a common pick, though lately I've been seeing the Knights/Guard/BA lists but with Knights swapped out for Deathwatch. Many of those people were slow on the uptake and haven't abandoned this despite being unable to maintain the expensive CP costs needed to make it worthwhile, but it's still pretty good.
ImPhaeronWeasel wrote: Ive read somewhere that Lascan Razorbacks are actually very point efficient AND give a nice 1st round protection to our units. Also with the new strat they habe a 2+ save which is nice I guess.
Another question. Do you guys have any preferable allies you use? Or do you play strictly mono Deathwatch?
The loyal 32 is boring yet effective, but I find it's worth picking up at least a Rune Priest and Dark Angels Librarian, either in separate detachments or together in a supreme command with something else [...]
But that isnt a thing anymore isnt it? I thought souping WITHIN a detachment is banned?
Martel732 wrote: I really dislike them. Any kind of minus to hit ruins their day.
Don't use them against most kind of Elves, and Nidz, well, that is basically all the strong Xeno armies. Their minus to hit and inv saves renders Hellblasters useleds
They will work Wonders against Necron "AV13 walls", which is the weakest Xeno army after everybody got their codexes now bar the GSC.
So in conclusion. Hellblasters can be bully units against the "weak" Xenos, but they suck hard against any strong ones.
Rogerio134134 wrote: Does anyone use hellblasters?? I'm thinking of just having a unit of 5 in my army, 10 seems overkill in a Deathwatch list.
The units all share keywords more specific than <imperium> so no, you can put them all in the same detachment, you just won't get any chapter tactics for those units. Often that matters not at all (e.g. 3 librarians from different chapters is hot right now, to access 3 different disciplines.)
ImPhaeronWeasel wrote: Ive read somewhere that Lascan Razorbacks are actually very point efficient AND give a nice 1st round protection to our units. Also with the new strat they habe a 2+ save which is nice I guess.
Another question. Do you guys have any preferable allies you use? Or do you play strictly mono Deathwatch?
The loyal 32 is boring yet effective, but I find it's worth picking up at least a Rune Priest and Dark Angels Librarian, either in separate detachments or together in a supreme command with something else [...]
But that isnt a thing anymore isnt it? I thought souping WITHIN a detachment is banned?
The Battle Brothers rule states that you need a faction keyword in common for all Detachments and it can't be Imperium. However, these units do share another keyword in common - Adeptus Astartes. This trifecta of Librarians is slowly becoming a mainstay for competitive marine lists. Throwing -2 to hit on a big dangerous unit like a Knight can really hurt it for a turn.
ImPhaeronWeasel wrote: Ive read somewhere that Lascan Razorbacks are actually very point efficient AND give a nice 1st round protection to our units. Also with the new strat they habe a 2+ save which is nice I guess.
Another question. Do you guys have any preferable allies you use? Or do you play strictly mono Deathwatch?
Razorbacks in general are reasonably heavy weapon platforms and do a solid job transporting Vets. They're fairly efficient, but in DW I like to put stuff on Dreads whenever possible since they get to benefit from the DW rerolls. The Mortis variant in particular is a great Las Turret.
ImPhaeronWeasel wrote:This sounds like some real but very nice power gaming :O
So the go to Libs would be the DW, DA, SW one
Absolutely. The Librarius discipline is still worth bringing.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:I remember seeing two Librarians before, but I don't remember any third HQ. What's this detachment looking like?
Could do a supreme command with one of each - that's been a common build for most marine forces. Could also include your DW Libby in your own DW battalion, then take separate space wolf or Dark Angels detachments to pick up the other two.
Mr. Evans at SoCal brought like 5 Librarians total I think lol One from a Deathwatch Battalion, one from a Dark Angels Battalion (with scouts), and a Supreme Command with Njal and two Rune Priests.
It's super bloody fluffy, to be honest, on top of being really competitive. I just wish it was a basic DW option so I could get away with painting them all up in DW colours...
I actually hadn't thought about a Supreme Command of Libbys and Rune Priests... I like this. Thanks for the idea!
Primaris vs Vets I have been taking both. I always run 3 Intercessor Squads with various Aggressors, Hellblasters, and Inceptors in them, and always run a single 10 man vet squad. My current iteration runs an Infernus Heavy Bolter (I take it over a regular Heavy Bolter for looks and because we are not hyper-competitive, otherwise it would be a regular HB for the stratagem), 3 Frag Cannons, 5 SB vets (3 chainswords 2 shields), and a Terminator with axe and SB. So far I have been loving it, and usually I DS the 10 man Vet unit plus 1 of the Intercessors (Usually with a Plasma Inceptor, 4 Hellblasters, and 5 Bolt Rifle Intercessors). My third DS is either another Intercessor unit, a dread, or a unit of Hellblasters. Keep in mind I am not in a WAAC Meta of course, but I usually run 2 DW Battalions. The next game I am running 2 Chaplain Dreads instead of 2 regular Ven Dreads because of the Character rule, even though I am missing out on 2 Missile Launchers for it.
I love this thread for ideas. I have two new lists to try out now:
Single Battalion with DA Battalion (That's what I played before DW anyways so easy peasy), and Supreme Command of Wolfies.
Supreme Command of DA, SW, and DW libbies/Runepriests with single Battalion and some Knights.
ImPhaeronWeasel wrote: Does anyone used a Leviathan in a DW list? I struggle somehow to include one PLUS still have some other AT WITHOUT going for Knights...
Storm cannon array Lev is almost stapled to my DW lists. It works so well in DW - it loves the +1 wound strat, and the reroll 1s to wound missions, it loves the ectoclades watchmaster who makes it really formidable in overwatch, (and keeps it effective as it degrades) and its 3 hunter-killers also sync really well with the doctrine strat, so they're effectively equal to or sometimes better than 3 lascannon shots. It always get the strat on its opening round of fire. I never leave home without a libby whose main job is to keep it buffed at T9. It's a problem that has to be dealt with, and so a lot of high-priority targets benefit from its T9 4++ 14W presence, as they get more table time. It's main downsides are 24" range and it needs babysitting to avoid getting shut down in CC.
I don't think there's a better way to spend 325pts in the faction tbh.
ImPhaeronWeasel wrote: Does anyone used a Leviathan in a DW list? I struggle somehow to include one PLUS still have some other AT WITHOUT going for Knights...
Storm cannon array Lev is almost stapled to my DW lists. It works so well in DW - it loves the +1 wound strat, and the reroll 1s to wound missions, it loves the ectoclades watchmaster who makes it really formidable in overwatch, (and keeps it effective as it degrades) and its 3 hunter-killers also sync really well with the doctrine strat, so they're effectively equal to or sometimes better than 3 lascannon shots. It always get the strat on its opening round of fire. I never leave home without a libby whose main job is to keep it buffed at T9. It's a problem that has to be dealt with, and so a lot of high-priority targets benefit from its T9 4++ 14W presence, as they get more table time. It's main downsides are 24" range and it needs babysitting to avoid getting shut down in CC.
I don't think there's a better way to spend 325pts in the faction tbh.
But how do you unlock it and what else are you playing with it (except the buff chars)? I agree that this unit is just amazeballs...Its jusst that I struggle to fit one in a list with 13 CP without having only very few AT except the Leviathan.
ImPhaeronWeasel wrote: Does anyone used a Leviathan in a DW list? I struggle somehow to include one PLUS still have some other AT WITHOUT going for Knights...
Storm cannon array Lev is almost stapled to my DW lists. It works so well in DW - it loves the +1 wound strat, and the reroll 1s to wound missions, it loves the ectoclades watchmaster who makes it really formidable in overwatch, (and keeps it effective as it degrades) and its 3 hunter-killers also sync really well with the doctrine strat, so they're effectively equal to or sometimes better than 3 lascannon shots. It always get the strat on its opening round of fire. I never leave home without a libby whose main job is to keep it buffed at T9. It's a problem that has to be dealt with, and so a lot of high-priority targets benefit from its T9 4++ 14W presence, as they get more table time. It's main downsides are 24" range and it needs babysitting to avoid getting shut down in CC.
I don't think there's a better way to spend 325pts in the faction tbh.
But how do you unlock it and what else are you playing with it (except the buff chars)? I agree that this unit is just amazeballs...Its jusst that I struggle to fit one in a list with 13 CP without having only very few AT except the Leviathan.
Mortis Dreadnought or a Hellblaster squad is probably your best bet to unlock it.
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Martel732 wrote: Hopefully it ends up more than 325 after ca. Leviathan needs a big nerf.
It's crazy efficient, particularly in DW, but I'm not sure it needs that huge of a change. Definitely in the upper tier of models, but its more of a standout in a collection of things that don't make the cut than anything. Stacked up against the meta and considering the points you have to sink into making it available, its really not making waves.
So ive come up with my first DW list...I want to play it a bit and try out what KT I want to use, what works best and what needs optimization.
I allied the DW with BloodAngels as I couldnt think of better melee units PLUS waaaay before I even thought of starting a power armour army I actually liked BloodAngels the most...
Death Company [18 PL, 224pts]: Jump Pack
. Death Company Marine: Thunder hammer
. Death Company Marine: Thunder hammer
. Death Company Marine: Thunder hammer
. Death Company Marine: Thunder hammer
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
I tried to have a bit of everything...but again this is definitely not perfectly optimized.
I think one TH on the DeathCompany is too much (it overkills stuff it doesnt need to).
Also I think I could squeez a 1CP detachment in (Vanguard for BA) but I want to be main DW not BA.
I aim to be „semi competitive“ with this list as most of the people Ive seen (actually never played against really fluffy armies) in my FLGs.
Sterling191 wrote:If you want to get *really* crazy with the Libby Supreme Command trio, go DA libby, SW Runepriest...
And a BA Libby Dreadnought.
I have no idea how well it will work, but the stupid movement and assault things you can do with it make me cackle hysterically.
Okay, I'm convinced. That would be FUN. I'm also going to go ahead and really double down on all this Librarian Supreme Command nonsense and see about making each model very clearly part of Deathwatch, but still noticeably distinct enough that it won't be confusing. Been playing with some old models from a friend to give it a whirl, and I'm down for fitting it in permanently as a fun option.
Martel732 wrote:Hopefully it ends up more than 325 after ca. Leviathan needs a big nerf.
I'm also expecting a nerf simply because its one of the lead performers for all marines and its a forgeworld unit, but those are pretty pessimistic reasons. Should other options become viable again, it won't be a head above everything as it currently is.
Those wishing for a nerf to the lev may be dissappointed. It was recently buffed, to be able to take 3 HK missiles.
If GW do strike it off the competitive list with one of their trademark nerf-bat swings, SM factions will be in a bit of trouble I think. It's a crutch unit for sure.
I dont think gw has the resources to devote to properly costing fw. Leviathan is a good example. It's a no brainer choice, and no brainers are bad for balance.
Agreed, but in the context that you yourself describe, nerfing one of the best units of a struggling set of factions makes little sense, unless it is accompanied by a corresponding buff. Anything else would result in SM factions gurgling further down the 8e plughole.
And it's not like only SOME people can buy Forgeworld. Anyone can, if they have the dough. $115, plus shipping and tax, for a Leviathan with double Storm Cannons.
Aye, there's nowt P2W about the Leviathan. It costs a little less money to buy the equivalent number of points in Intercessors, about £57 vs £72. Woop.
Let's be honest here, it's not like the Lev is leading SM in Tournament play. It's a very minor crutch at the middle levels of semi-competitive play. It isn't anything like Girlyman.
ImPhaeronWeasel wrote: So ive come up with my first DW list...I want to play it a bit and try out what KT I want to use, what works best and what needs optimization.
I allied the DW with BloodAngels as I couldnt think of better melee units PLUS waaaay before I even thought of starting a power armour army I actually liked BloodAngels the most...
Death Company [18 PL, 224pts]: Jump Pack
. Death Company Marine: Thunder hammer
. Death Company Marine: Thunder hammer
. Death Company Marine: Thunder hammer
. Death Company Marine: Thunder hammer
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
I tried to have a bit of everything...but again this is definitely not perfectly optimized.
I think one TH on the DeathCompany is too much (it overkills stuff it doesnt need to).
Also I think I could squeez a 1CP detachment in (Vanguard for BA) but I want to be main DW not BA.
I aim to be „semi competitive“ with this list as most of the people Ive seen (actually never played against really fluffy armies) in my FLGs.
Any tip or suggestion is very appreciated!
If you dont wont to combat squad the Aggressors i would give the Intercessors the auto bolt rifle, otherwise if you split them its fine^^
The leviathan doesn't need a nerf, its not to far off the points of a knight and nowhere near as effective. If anything the stormcannons could be upped by 10-15pts each as they are (like most high rate of fire weapons) under valued by GW, this would make the other options more favourable at least. Also removing the reduction of attacks when you don't take close combat weapons (like other dreads) would encourage a mix of shooting and combat weapons which is kind of what the levi was made for.
Really I can't think of a single Marine unit in all the factions that is truly overpowered for its cost. The only things spammed are Jump captains, scouts and ....... nope nothing else :-) They aren't in any way broken but are at least useful for their points.
ImPhaeronWeasel wrote: So ive come up with my first DW list...I want to play it a bit and try out what KT I want to use, what works best and what needs optimization.
I allied the DW with BloodAngels as I couldnt think of better melee units PLUS waaaay before I even thought of starting a power armour army I actually liked BloodAngels the most...
Death Company [18 PL, 224pts]: Jump Pack
. Death Company Marine: Thunder hammer
. Death Company Marine: Thunder hammer
. Death Company Marine: Thunder hammer
. Death Company Marine: Thunder hammer
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
. Death Company Marine: Bolt pistol and chainsword
I tried to have a bit of everything...but again this is definitely not perfectly optimized.
I think one TH on the DeathCompany is too much (it overkills stuff it doesnt need to).
Also I think I could squeez a 1CP detachment in (Vanguard for BA) but I want to be main DW not BA.
I aim to be „semi competitive“ with this list as most of the people Ive seen (actually never played against really fluffy armies) in my FLGs.
Any tip or suggestion is very appreciated!
If you dont wont to combat squad the Aggressors i would give the Intercessors the auto bolt rifle, otherwise if you split them its fine^^
I dont quite get why the auto bolters...If I want to move with the aggressors and have a mobile fire power unit then yes for sure auto bolt rifles...but the plan here is to beacon angelis them up (most preferably in cover) and have them fire from the „middle“ of the board. Like this the RF rifles should be in 15“ range
ya for my opinion the normal rifles are better too, but with the auto bolts + aggressors you can advance all the time with no -1 to hit penalty. But if your plan ist to shoot all time on 15" the bolt rifle is the best for it, over 15" with moving the auto bolts for the 2 shoots flat.
ImPhaeronWeasel wrote: I dont quite get why the auto bolters...If I want to move with the aggressors and have a mobile fire power unit then yes for sure auto bolt rifles...but the plan here is to beacon angelis them up (most preferably in cover) and have them fire from the „middle“ of the board. Like this the RF rifles should be in 15“ range
If you're only going to be using them with beacon or Teleportarium and don't need them to move much more than forward after they arrive, then stick with the regular bolt rifles.
The key to the auto bolt rifle synergy here is to allow the unit to move roughly 7'' - 12'' a turn with zero penalty to hit and letting another more dangerous unit take advantage of the beacon or stratagem. Provided you're clever with model positioning to cover for the slightly slower Aggressor movement speed while still staying in coherence, you can get some pretty reliable speed out of these guys. Obviously you don't need that synergy if you're just going to beacon them into the thick of it.
Assault+aggressor makes a great turn-1 objective grabber imo. Ideally the unit only moves the once, and is then set to hold the objective while spraying bullets all over the shop.
The teleporter squad lands next turn, so is behind in scoring, and when it does land, the aggressor is shooting normally. Whereas the assault squad are nicely in place, and the aggressor is now shooting 12+2d6 each turn, and must be dealt with. Ymmv, but they do good work for me.
They are ok but:
Vet squads always have done me better (unless going for power and a battalion then some cheap intercessors and major others etc). A few: Storm shields/bolters, combi-plasmas, frags, a pleb or 2, a vanguard, a stock termie to take hits etc for the unit (unit uses teleport strat). Plus some: stalkers/bikers/vanguards 10 man squads for objective /support squads Combated. I take them purely for the options and can customise to be awesome.
These are the bones of an effective force I have found. However, each to own.
'Failaris' bring some very nice models to the table, aggressors chief among them.
They need to hug cover more than their shield-toting mini brethren, but once ensconsed they are hard to shift (dizzy cannons excepted).
They take mortal wounds like champs, and this is a very common thing in 40K now.
The Boltrifle is all about that -1 hellfire, that can be delivered on the move.
You're not paying 20pt minimum per wound, you're paying half that. They're easy to get up to T5, and that makes a big difference against some classic anti-marine profiles (dizzies, plasma, HBs).
Paired with assault bolters and aggressors they are our most mobile troop unit, short of bikes.
grouchoben wrote: 'Failaris' bring some very nice models to the table, aggressors chief among them.
They need to hug cover more than their shield-toting mini brethren, but once ensconsed they are hard to shift (dizzy cannons excepted).
They take mortal wounds like champs, and this is a very common thing in 40K now.
The Boltrifle is all about that -1 hellfire, that can be delivered on the move.
You're not paying 20pt minimum per wound, you're paying half that. They're easy to get up to T5, and that makes a big difference against some classic anti-marine profiles (dizzies, plasma, HBs).
Paired with assault bolters and aggressors they are our most mobile troop unit, short of bikes.
Oh I have trialed aggressors etc. and failaris do have uses (intercessor screens for mortals etc) but the tele strat is best used for vets I have found (way more output to points and more survivable unless mortal) and biker/vanguard on other half of a 5 man stalker squad so both get objective secured) are super fast and durable.
I just if combine them is ok, but the "hit" of primaris is not there. They are screens at most. Just my expierence/opinion. Each to own
grouchoben wrote: Assault+aggressor makes a great turn-1 objective grabber imo. Ideally the unit only moves the once, and is then set to hold the objective while spraying bullets all over the shop.
The teleporter squad lands next turn, so is behind in scoring, and when it does land, the aggressor is shooting normally. Whereas the assault squad are nicely in place, and the aggressor is now shooting 12+2d6 each turn, and must be dealt with. Ymmv, but they do good work for me.
Agreed on every point here. The auto bolt rifle aggressor squad is dangerous and mobile right from the very start. I prefer it over the bolt rifle simply because its tactically more flexible and adaptable. While there is some value if you can reliably get the Beacon to land them somewhere great every first turn, groucho is right that you give up a lot to make it work - all for -1 AP on 10 shots. Also, auto bolt rifles look boss.
If your opponent lets you do the beacon strat often and its effective, keep running that unit and take advantage of their mistake until they counter it. To avoid wasting a turn where the unit isn't contributing, I suggest deploying them normally, in cover, or out of line of sight and relying on beacon to get them in the thick of it. Unfortunately, that tactic has a lot of easy counters and is pretty easy to predict. With proper screening they could deny your relic holder good spots to move to, isolate him along with the squad, and limit where you could teleport the squad. Keep in mind that you'll be walking that unit into smites. You're also really susceptible to transports being used as a way to eat overwatch followed by a quick charge from chaff to silence their shooting for a turn.
When you can't beacon them, you have limited mobility unless you advance, but can't fire half the squad's weapons when doing that. You will output less SIA firepower at range than the auto bolt rifles can as well.
"While there is some value if you can reliably get the Beacon to land them somewhere great every first turn, groucho is right that you give up a lot to make it work - all for -1 AP on 10 shots.
If your opponent lets you do this often, keep running that unit and take advantage of their mistake until they counter it."
Could save some points if going super points efficient. Drop Xenophase & power maul for Chainswords and missile launcher for a Stalker/Chainsword (32pts right there)
This is my prime objective grabber (for turn 1, the bikes). All get objective secured. The top 5 are awesome for back line objectives (if have missile can use strat if need). The bottom 5 are super fast (can move 20", depends on stagger, only downside is mortal wounds).
Usually run minimum 2 units of this (depends on points level).
ImPhaeronWeasel wrote: I’ll definitely try the beacon thing first but I do see the benefit of having a mobile fire base.
A question I have to the tournament players...how do you manage to have WYSIWYG on Deathwatch? Ive seen some tourneys have this as a standart rule
I personally think this is a standard (all my models i play are WYSIWYG) i never play an army against a non mate that is not WYSIWYG. I think proxies confuse people in the heat of a game (I am looking at the model, he has a power fist, oh wait it is a thunder hammer he said wait what did he say?, no power sword.... his melta is a combi-plasma gun no is a stalker what?... im gunna ask again but I have asked 10 times).
ImPhaeronWeasel wrote: I’ll definitely try the beacon thing first but I do see the benefit of having a mobile fire base.
A question I have to the tournament players...how do you manage to have WYSIWYG on Deathwatch? Ive seen some tourneys have this as a standart rule
I personally think this is a standard (all my models i play are WYSIWYG) i never play an army against a non mate that is not WYSIWYG. I think proxies confuse people in the heat of a game (I am looking at the model, he has a power fist, oh wait it is a thunder hammer he said wait what did he say?, no power sword.... his melta is a combi-plasma gun no is a stalker what?... im gunna ask again but I have asked 10 times).
But where do you get all the StormBolters from Or what if you want to play a different loadout once...
But true I also try to avoid proxying vs. non mates
ImPhaeronWeasel wrote: I’ll definitely try the beacon thing first but I do see the benefit of having a mobile fire base.
A question I have to the tournament players...how do you manage to have WYSIWYG on Deathwatch? Ive seen some tourneys have this as a standart rule
I personally think this is a standard (all my models i play are WYSIWYG) i never play an army against a non mate that is not WYSIWYG. I think proxies confuse people in the heat of a game (I am looking at the model, he has a power fist, oh wait it is a thunder hammer he said wait what did he say?, no power sword.... his melta is a combi-plasma gun no is a stalker what?... im gunna ask again but I have asked 10 times).
But where do you get all the StormBolters from Or what if you want to play a different loadout once...
But true I also try to avoid proxying vs. non mates
LOL, seriously but I:
I made like 20 storm bolter guys when the codex came out (use norm marine bodies from bitz box, clipped some Death watch arms the bolter off and bought 20 sternguard I think storm bolters from a bitz site i use and then made 15 storm bolter/chainsword, the chain sword was glued onto a clipped off power sword DW arm. Then made 5 Storm bolter/storm shield. Shoulder pad chapters all different as need.
I only use my actual Deathwatch bodies/legs for special models like DW Sergs/Black shields/Stalker rifles/Special Weapons etc. All others get normal marine bodies/legs, DW arms, heads and should pads. All get DW arms and back packs (i bought a gak tonne from bitz sites), they have a lot extra arms per box but. If you have a big collection of norm marines can make a lot from a little and looks uniform.
Edit: Honestly I run a few storm bolter guys, but my plebs I run bolter/chainsword or bolter/stormshield, only if have points left over do I throw on a storm bolter now days.
Edit 2: I have well over 200 DW soldiers so is easy for me to run WYSIWYG, but even in my other armies I always make it a rule (for myself)
Lemondish wrote: I was running combi-melta squads in Razorbacks for a while - 3 of them all told. I thought they were great, but easy to zone out and handle at times.
It was a lot of fun, though I would have preferred to be able to run them in a Corvus if only it wasn't so completely disappointing.
When you could get in melta range, they would always slag something big. Ran them alongside the Terminator melta captain, too.
Still not that points efficient, but a cool unit.
Melta is terrible. Absolutely terrible. Anything would be better. At least with Combi-Flamers you'll do more hits for more rerolling to wound.
I've run a 5-man combiflamer squad all with them, and it's pretty fun. Still clocks in around 150pts though, with a few stormshields.
As far as combis go, I think Plasma is probably your best bet, but that competes with hellblasters which are a lot better, and allied scions, which are in another class. You can take 14 plasma & 3 plasma pistols spread across 27 models for 510pts, giving you free deepstrike, 5cps, board control, etc. It's really hard to compete with that if you want substantial plasma in your army, imo.
Really, the base cost of a vet is so high that it's hard to stack more on top, and when there's the trusty SB&CS to go to, well, it's a hard sell.
grouchoben wrote: and allied scions, which are in another class. You can take 14 plasma & 3 plasma pistols spread across 27 models for 510pts, giving you free deepstrike, 5cps, board control, etc. It's really hard to compete with that if you want substantial plasma in your army, imo.
Do you happen to have a breakdown on that configuration handy?
Lemondish wrote: I was running combi-melta squads in Razorbacks for a while - 3 of them all told. I thought they were great, but easy to zone out and handle at times.
It was a lot of fun, though I would have preferred to be able to run them in a Corvus if only it wasn't so completely disappointing.
When you could get in melta range, they would always slag something big. Ran them alongside the Terminator melta captain, too.
Still not that points efficient, but a cool unit.
Melta is terrible. Absolutely terrible. Anything would be better. At least with Combi-Flamers you'll do more hits for more rerolling to wound.
Naw, in melta range they outperformed plasma by a noticeable margin. The melta hate hardon you carry is ridiculous, mate.
But you do you. I had fun with the units, so sue me. Obviously won't win any tournaments, but that's a given considering no marine army does. And that's okay.
Lemondish wrote: I was running combi-melta squads in Razorbacks for a while - 3 of them all told. I thought they were great, but easy to zone out and handle at times.
It was a lot of fun, though I would have preferred to be able to run them in a Corvus if only it wasn't so completely disappointing.
When you could get in melta range, they would always slag something big. Ran them alongside the Terminator melta captain, too.
Still not that points efficient, but a cool unit.
Melta is terrible. Absolutely terrible. Anything would be better. At least with Combi-Flamers you'll do more hits for more rerolling to wound.
Naw, in melta range they outperformed plasma by a noticeable margin. The melta hate hardon you carry is ridiculous, mate.
But you do you. I had fun with the units, so sue me. Obviously won't win any tournaments, but that's a given considering no marine army does. And that's okay.
It barely does that and it costs 4 more points than Plasma for less flexibility.
Melta is bad and new players shouldn't be building their stuff with Melta until it gets a substantial price cut. Remember that Multi-Meltas outperform lots of stuff in their Melta range, but they're still bad for a reason. I'm not the only Melta hater either. I'd say most of the playerbase does.
Melta is good in specific roles such as a character with a jump pack and combi-melta... it’s got the speed and range to do significant damage plus can be easily screened.
== wrote:[== 728413 10223996 null]Melta is good in specific roles such as a character with a jump pack and combi-melta... it’s got the speed and range to do significant damage plus can be easily screened.
It's 19 points in that scenario for 1 whole shot. Plasma would be more flexible and save you 4 points too. In a low model count army that adds up significantly in the long run.
grouchoben wrote: and allied scions, which are in another class. You can take 14 plasma & 3 plasma pistols spread across 27 models for 510pts, giving you free deepstrike, 5cps, board control, etc. It's really hard to compete with that if you want substantial plasma in your army, imo.
Do you happen to have a breakdown on that configuration handy?
Sure dude (it's actually 25 models):
2x Tempestor Prime [3 PL, 50pts]: Power axe [5pts], Tempestus Command Rod [5pts]
Efficient or not, I have a blast with my melta terminator captain. Twin meltas and a blast of tempest shells from DS seems to garner an unrealistic amount of attention in my local meta.
Also lets you slap the aquila on a prime, to free up your warlord trait on your Watchmaster too - Nowhere to Hide is really nice, I find. A Watchmaster with Tome of Ectoclades & Nowhere to Hide is a pretty god-mode buffer for 130pts imo, and gives you so much flex in targetting, which can sometimes be a problem with mission tactics. He just *points* and a unit is in trouble.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I love the double melta cap too, he is a scary dude.
grouchoben wrote: Also lets you slap the aquila on a prime, to free up your warlord trait on your Watchmaster too - Nowhere to Hide is really nice, I find. A Watchmaster with Tome of Ectoclades & Nowhere to Hide is a pretty god-mode buffer for 130pts imo, and gives you so much flex in targetting, which can sometimes be a problem with mission tactics. He just *points* and a unit is in trouble.
Much appreciated! I run a mixed Cadian/Elysian support group for my Fortis tems, but I want to try and fiddle with it to give the drop teams some more punch. As is they do great coming in and melting lightly armored flanks, but with that much plasma theyd be a fantastic threat to moderate and even heavier armored sections. Potentially dropping from three detachments down to two is also a plus.
As to WL traits, NtH + Tome of Shootius Maximus is my go-to. The tactical flexibility that it gives is absolutely fantastic and I think perfectly embodies the fluffy DW doctrine of adaptive combat.
== wrote:[== 728413 10223996 null]Melta is good in specific roles such as a character with a jump pack and combi-melta... it’s got the speed and range to do significant damage plus can be easily screened.
It's 19 points in that scenario for 1 whole shot. Plasma would be more flexible and save you 4 points too. In a low model count army that adds up significantly in the long run.
Actually you could fire up to three shots at 12 inches. If you only fire melta it is hitting ion a rerollable 2+. Due to the speed of the unit this is excellent for character snipping with a rerollable d6 damage.
== wrote:[== 728413 10223996 null]Melta is good in specific roles such as a character with a jump pack and combi-melta... it’s got the speed and range to do significant damage plus can be easily screened.
It's 19 points in that scenario for 1 whole shot. Plasma would be more flexible and save you 4 points too. In a low model count army that adds up significantly in the long run.
Actually you could fire up to three shots at 12 inches. If you only fire melta it is hitting ion a rerollable 2+. Due to the speed of the unit this is excellent for character snipping with a rerollable d6 damage.
You do understand the math for that single shot though?
Rogerio134134 wrote: I am feeling slightly gutted about my little 5 man combi meltas unit which took me 2 weeks to paint now after seeing all the hate..
I have occasionally run combi-meltas on my Vet srgs, BS and 1 or 2 more (plus other equipped guys) in a Teleportarium unit or 2. However, I find if dropping a jump pack captain near a Vet squad or 2 coming in from teleport running combi-plasma's, a frag or 2 (plus other equipped guys) are the better option and they give more versatility.
Running Vet squads in Corvus's or razorbacks (If you want to run them vehicles) same deal. Plasma is just better (and if don't overcharge gives more shots and versitiliy if shooting hordes etc). I run comb-melta's/thunder hammers on my jump captains, they are awesome.
Automatically Appended Next Post: If you are running a 5 man vet squad (or any amount unit), my philosophy is you never want to run without some meat shields. My rule of thumb is every squad needs atleast 1 guy with storm shield and boltgun/storm bolter or stalker depends on unit, and 1 guy with Chainsword and boltgun/storm bolter or stalker depends on unit. Though a lot of these squads will be all one of these weapons, same applies to teleportarium squads/hit squads etc.
Lemondish wrote: I was running combi-melta squads in Razorbacks for a while - 3 of them all told. I thought they were great, but easy to zone out and handle at times.
It was a lot of fun, though I would have preferred to be able to run them in a Corvus if only it wasn't so completely disappointing.
When you could get in melta range, they would always slag something big. Ran them alongside the Terminator melta captain, too.
Still not that points efficient, but a cool unit.
Melta is terrible. Absolutely terrible. Anything would be better. At least with Combi-Flamers you'll do more hits for more rerolling to wound.
Naw, in melta range they outperformed plasma by a noticeable margin. The melta hate hardon you carry is ridiculous, mate.
But you do you. I had fun with the units, so sue me. Obviously won't win any tournaments, but that's a given considering no marine army does. And that's okay.
It barely does that and it costs 4 more points than Plasma for less flexibility.
Melta is bad and new players shouldn't be building their stuff with Melta until it gets a substantial price cut. Remember that Multi-Meltas outperform lots of stuff in their Melta range, but they're still bad for a reason. I'm not the only Melta hater either. I'd say most of the playerbase does.
Sure, you're not the only one - your just the only one that can't separate choices made because someone finds them FUN and choices made because they're GT level tournament players it some such nonsense.
Slagged a Castellan with them yesterday. Couldn't do that with plasma.
We're in a thread about DW ffs. Get over yourself.
So because the thread is about Deathwatch we aren't supposed to talk about the best choices? Give me a break.
Also nobody cares you got lucky ONCE with an army sorely lacking in AT using one of the most inefficient anti-tank guns. Melta is one of the most requested weapons for a buff for a reason.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ImPhaeronWeasel wrote: Would it be ok to use Eisenhorn as a „Watch Captain“ without any special stuff (TH/SS Jump Pack etc.) or would you call bs?
I think Eisenhorn is a cool model PLUS hes Ordo Xenos but I dont really want to use him and his rules...
You'd probably need to do a little more to make him more of a Space Marine.
Plus I heard his rules aren't bad for an Inquisitor.
Rogerio134134 wrote: Inceptors in intercessor squads yay or nay?? I've got 2 large primaris blobs in my army
One is 5 X intercessors, 2 hellblasters 2 inceptors
The other is 5 intercessors 5 hellblasters
The primaris apothecary and watch master tagging along behind them to buff them up.
(grain of salt: throrycrafting only, as I’m still painting up my DW)
It seems like they are money in the bank. The ability to fall back and still shoot means you are almost never going to be tarpitted. And for a shooty army, that’s really nice. The other guys you can add to the squad seem situationally nice, the Inceptors strike me as mandatory.
Plasma is flexible, but the game doesn't often reward flexibility, it rewards specialization. Melta will do work if used with 3 or more models, and paying just 2pts more for a combi with SIA gives a little flexibility. I wouldn't shoot both at the same time except in Overwatch. I've used melta a lot on my Ravenwing (not many other options in a pure list for AT duty) and they have performed well. If a unit is equipped with melta, you'd better have a specific target for it.
bullyboy wrote: Plasma is flexible, but the game doesn't often reward flexibility, it rewards specialization. Melta will do work if used with 3 or more models, and paying just 2pts more for a combi with SIA gives a little flexibility. I wouldn't shoot both at the same time except in Overwatch. I've used melta a lot on my Ravenwing (not many other options in a pure list for AT duty) and they have performed well. If a unit is equipped with melta, you'd better have a specific target for it.
For every two Melta, you pay just a little extra for three Plasma Guns. It isn't even just about flexibility, it's also about number of shots. You either get 3 shots outside 12", or 6 inside 12" compared to 2. Melta pays a lot for a single shot with a lot of AP, and when lots of targets have an Invul or ways to mitigate damage, you can't rely on DD6 to do anything.
Fragcannons are way better than melta and can go on vets just like meltas. They trounce meltas. They do a little dance on them. They scare invlun enemies with their auto hits when they get close; they wreck face in overwatch; they are lethal within 12" (that S9); and you can still take a pop with them at 24". And they're only about 4pts more...
Rogerio134134 wrote: Inceptors in intercessor squads yay or nay?? I've got 2 large primaris blobs in my army
One is 5 X intercessors, 2 hellblasters 2 inceptors
The other is 5 intercessors 5 hellblasters
The primaris apothecary and watch master tagging along behind them to buff them up.
My premier teleportarium strike teams are 5 Intercessers, 3x Plasma Inceptors, 2x Aggressors. The capacity to, essentially, dual wield plasma cannons and deliver them via deep strike while also having a ten T5 wound buffer for them is not to be taken lightly.
If you can get them into cover holy crap do they do terrifying work. The capacity to shoot, charge, then fall back is icing on that cake.
Rogerio134134 wrote: Inceptors in intercessor squads yay or nay?? I've got 2 large primaris blobs in my army
One is 5 X intercessors, 2 hellblasters 2 inceptors
The other is 5 intercessors 5 hellblasters
The primaris apothecary and watch master tagging along behind them to buff them up.
My premier teleportarium strike teams are 5 Intercessers, 3x Plasma Inceptors, 2x Aggressors. The capacity to, essentially, dual wield plasma cannons and deliver them via deep strike while also having a ten T5 wound buffer for them is not to be taken lightly.
If you can get them into cover holy crap do they do terrifying work. The capacity to shoot, charge, then fall back is icing on that cake.
Nice, im restricted right now simply due to models but otherwise I'd definitely take aggressors or plasma inceptors. My actual models available are...
20 intercessors
15 hellblasters
2 inceptors (used one to make a smash Captain
So i am wondering if anyone running DW has done a more updated breakdown of the special unique things that are DeathWatch.
I would really be interested in seeing a breakdown of SIA and when to use the different ammos.
I also would like to see peoples advice on Strats , WTs and relics in the present.
Im in the process of building a new DW Army and i think DW can be competitive and would like to get an experianced understanding on what works and what doesnt.
What Sterling said about SI is spot on. Get in RF as your main goal. From there Hellfire>Vengeance>Kraken>the one that you never use.
I run a single Inceptor in most of my Primaris Killteams. My most effective so far has been 4 Aggressors and a Bolter Inceptor with the 5 Intercessors, but I have had good luck with both Plasma Inceptor and 4 Hellblasters as well as 1 aggressor, 1 inceptor, 5 ABR Intercessors and 3 API Hellblasters. I mix Plasma Inceptors with Hellblasters points permitting, and otherwise just go Bolters.
Marius Xerxes wrote: If you are running a bonus to wound stratagem, hellfire isn't always the best ammo to be using. In fact, its worse at all range bands.
Kraken and Vengeance are better, with bonus to wound strat, against GEQ, MEQ, Tau T3/4+ and other infantry T4/4+.
Assuming a Bolt Rilfe profile and no invuln saves.
Different story if you don't run one of the strats or run into invulns where the AP doesn't matter.
Those CP are expensive, and as marines, Deathwatch won't have that many CP, like Orks or Nidz could, to be burn through.
Kraken and Vengence rounds are good for shooting tanks and the like with buff of stratagem, or shooting without stratagem buff at those having a decent armor save but don't have a great toughness or inv save to boost, such as Striking Scorpion, Dark Reaper, Sisters of Battle, Tau firewarriors, and maybe Necron Warriors and Immortals. But generally speaking, those are not competitive units anyway bar the Dark Reapers and superheavy vehicles.
If you run into something like Magnus, Mortarion, Flyrant, Swarmlord, Genestealers, Thurnderwolf Carvalry, Necron Wraiths, Eldar Shining Spears, Talos, Ripetide with 3++, Harlequin jetbike / infantries, and last but not the least, Ork boyz, load up your hellfire.
Neophyte2012 wrote: Those CP are expensive, and as marines, Deathwatch won't have that many CP, like Orks or Nidz could, to be burn through.
DW, as Marines, will have as many CP as you can ally in. They are no worse off then any other Imperial faction save mono Guard. It only costs 360 to add 10 CP to your list.
But if looking at mono DW, then sure, bulk CP are hard to come by. I wasn't looking at them through that lens, though.
Neophyte2012 wrote: If you run into something like Magnus, Mortarion, Flyrant, Swarmlord, Genestealers, Thurnderwolf Carvalry, Necron Wraiths, Eldar Shining Spears, Talos, Ripetide with 3++, Harlequin jetbike / infantries, and last but not the least, Ork boyz
Neophyte2012 wrote: Those CP are expensive, and as marines, Deathwatch won't have that many CP, like Orks or Nidz could, to be burn through.
DW, as Marines, will have as many CP as you can ally in. They are no worse off then any other Imperial faction save mono Guard. It only costs 360 to add 10 CP to your list.
But if looking at mono DW, then sure, bulk CP are hard to come by. I wasn't looking at them through that lens, though.
Neophyte2012 wrote: If you run into something like Magnus, Mortarion, Flyrant, Swarmlord, Genestealers, Thurnderwolf Carvalry, Necron Wraiths, Eldar Shining Spears, Talos, Ripetide with 3++, Harlequin jetbike / infantries, and last but not the least, Ork boyz
Clearly, none of this is what I spoke of.
Yes, IG is the best CP battery. It is my problem of not playing IG, so I never own any Imperial Guard army, only Marines, SW, DW and GK. so the minimun points cost for me in CP battery would be 270pts per 5CP.
Of course, ur original post are not talking about the units which are best dealt with hellfire rounds, but those ones are the most popular units in competitive plays.
Been trying to put together a half decent thematic force and came up with this
My DW are painted as normal marines so having the patrol detachment of scouts and tacticals from the 10th company to sit on objectives and pop missiles seems to make sense to me rather than having guard.
I think it lacks anti tank though but at least I have a fair amount of bodies on the table. And I figure my meltas and hammer Captain can attack vehicles along with the dreads.
++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Deathwatch) [95 PL, 1794pts] ++
Couple of things. First up, the Patrol unit has no HQ. Secondly the Tac squad doesn't have any heavy weapon assigned to it, so the points for that whole section are going to need reworked.
As to their role of back/midfield campers, 5 packs of Vets with Stalkers will do the job just as well if not better, plus you can toss in a SS to make them annoying AF to dislodge with shooting. No reason you can't keep them decked out primarily as Scouts in your current paint scheme, but play them as Vets.
What's the intended delivery system for your Frags and Meltas, the Coruvs? If so consider swapping the Meltas out for more Frags.
Your Primaris configuration is all over the map. Definitely consider folding your standalone Hellblasters into your existing Intercessor teams. They're a *lot* happier with meatshields.
All told I think you can probably squeeze a double battalion out of this list.
Sterling191 wrote: Couple of things. First up, the Patrol unit has no HQ. Secondly the Tac squad doesn't have any heavy weapon assigned to it, so the points for that whole section are going to need reworked.
As to their role of back/midfield campers, 5 packs of Vets with Stalkers will do the job just as well if not better, plus you can toss in a SS to make them annoying AF to dislodge with shooting. No reason you can't keep them decked out primarily as Scouts in your current paint scheme, but play them as Vets.
What's the intended delivery system for your Frags and Meltas, the Coruvs? If so consider swapping the Meltas out for more Frags.
Your Primaris configuration is all over the map. Definitely consider folding your standalone Hellblasters into your existing Intercessor teams. They're a *lot* happier with meatshields.
All told I think you can probably squeeze a double battalion out of this list.
Cheers for the advice, yeah that's not a bad idea at all. Didn't realise a patrol needed a hq! I might do a vanguard detachment with the dreads and the apothecary while adding a librarian. Stalker unit is a good idea too.
Problem with my meltas is that they are already painted up, could snip then off though and add storm bolters. I think I just need to play some games. The issue I have is that I've been trying to paint up my 1750 pt list before putting them out on the table and I'm very close!
The Xiphon lets you put a model on the board from almost anywhere else on the board, point to a model no matter where on the board it was and then push some lascannons into it's face. It's like having an anti-armor sniper that ignore most of the LOS and movement restrictions in the game
I've been running a DW Xiphon all year, it's been pretty good. But it does make your list a bit counterable: a lot of high end lists run a shed load of flyers, and so a lot of people respond to that meta with anti-air tech, which is a problem. Couple that with the expected dawn of the traktor meta, and my Xiphon might be taking a bit of a rest for a while.
Rogerio134134 wrote: Been trying to put together a half decent thematic force and came up with this
My DW are painted as normal marines so having the patrol detachment of scouts and tacticals from the 10th company to sit on objectives and pop missiles seems to make sense to me rather than having guard.
I think it lacks anti tank though but at least I have a fair amount of bodies on the table. And I figure my meltas and hammer Captain can attack vehicles along with the dreads.
++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Deathwatch) [95 PL, 1794pts] ++
First thing is your watch captain can take another weapon, unless been FAQ (he can take 2 weapons and the bolt pistol is extra, you have to pay for it but, 1 point). I would put beacon on this guy for relic (just cause I love this relic for versatility)
If your Watch Master is to baby sit the ven dreads etc, prob better with another captain (ven dreads have a BS of 2+). If going a Watch Master as the warlord I find castellan the better warlord trait cause affects his combat and shooting (espec now days with the reduction in lore).
Rant about WM:
You could teleport him in with a strat but my pref is to use a beacon on him from a jump captain and teleport strat the units I need (gives options if need him or not but vise versa) I think he stays back and supports long rang, then when my teleport units come in to crush, spam him up with a beacon. But many uses (sometimes teleport etc and beacon another, or just beacon another etc, depends on army) but each to own.
I have never seen the point in sitting a 130pts model back (not that you are, I am just saying).
The awesome thing about using a strat on him is he can go wherever need.
A lot of times i take a Watch Captain with a stalker pattern boltgun sitting back with my back line fire support (maybe the domius or tomb) as the warlord and have a Watch Master leading the charge. Granted we use the rules that Beacon is used last in the movement phase (idk if update on its rules, but some times there is controversy because many things say used last etc, so always let opponent know before game starts that can do).
That's a rant about my armies with the WM with this army atm you prob don't need that but there is +400 points saved/to spend as follows so could change up your army if take advice:
I don't like to run primarius but with your models you could run:
3x 7 man squads with (5x Intercessor and 2 x Hellblasters) one squad or two could run 3 hellblasters
I don't see the point of the apothecary.
The problem with the corvus is it's gunna take alot of your fire (which is good if it didn't have 2 units inside it).
I would ditch the corvus and change the 2 veteran squads to be almost even in spread in meat shields, storm shields, frag cannons and teleport strat both of them (maybe add a vanguard for fall back and shoot and a stock termie to absorb no Ap hits to each unit).
With them added soldiers but loss of the corvus, apothecary and change to primarius would give around 200+ points or so to add ( on top of that lose the patrol (cause cant take anyway, another +200) could make a second DW battalion with the vets or something else)
Cheers guys appreciate the advice, I'll be clipping the meltas off haha. The corvus I now know is a non optimal choice but it was one of the first models I bought and I really like it so I'll try it out.
On the primaris side of things I'd love to take some aggressors but I haven't got any right now. I may spilt them up into units of 7 or 8 with hellblasters as advised. The models I have are ..
21 intercessors and 15 hellblasters with 2 bolter inceptors too plus about 16 veterans.
Captain Garius wrote:What Sterling said about SI is spot on. Get in RF as your main goal. From there Hellfire>Vengeance>Kraken>the one that you never use.
I run a single Inceptor in most of my Primaris Killteams. My most effective so far has been 4 Aggressors and a Bolter Inceptor with the 5 Intercessors, but I have had good luck with both Plasma Inceptor and 4 Hellblasters as well as 1 aggressor, 1 inceptor, 5 ABR Intercessors and 3 API Hellblasters. I mix Plasma Inceptors with Hellblasters points permitting, and otherwise just go Bolters.
Marius Xerxes wrote:If you are running a bonus to wound stratagem, hellfire isn't always the best ammo to be using. In fact, its worse at all range bands.
Kraken and Vengeance are better, with bonus to wound strat, against GEQ, MEQ, Tau T3/4+ and other infantry T4/4+.
Assuming a Bolt Rilfe profile and no invuln saves.
Different story if you don't run one of the strats or run into invulns where the AP doesn't matter.
Neophyte2012 wrote:
Marius Xerxes wrote: If you are running a bonus to wound stratagem, hellfire isn't always the best ammo to be using. In fact, its worse at all range bands.
Kraken and Vengeance are better, with bonus to wound strat, against GEQ, MEQ, Tau T3/4+ and other infantry T4/4+.
Assuming a Bolt Rilfe profile and no invuln saves.
Different story if you don't run one of the strats or run into invulns where the AP doesn't matter.
Those CP are expensive, and as marines, Deathwatch won't have that many CP, like Orks or Nidz could, to be burn through.
Kraken and Vengence rounds are good for shooting tanks and the like with buff of stratagem, or shooting without stratagem buff at those having a decent armor save but don't have a great toughness or inv save to boost, such as Striking Scorpion, Dark Reaper, Sisters of Battle, Tau firewarriors, and maybe Necron Warriors and Immortals. But generally speaking, those are not competitive units anyway bar the Dark Reapers and superheavy vehicles.
If you run into something like Magnus, Mortarion, Flyrant, Swarmlord, Genestealers, Thurnderwolf Carvalry, Necron Wraiths, Eldar Shining Spears, Talos, Ripetide with 3++, Harlequin jetbike / infantries, and last but not the least, Ork boyz, load up your hellfire.
Marius Xerxes wrote:
Neophyte2012 wrote: Those CP are expensive, and as marines, Deathwatch won't have that many CP, like Orks or Nidz could, to be burn through.
DW, as Marines, will have as many CP as you can ally in. They are no worse off then any other Imperial faction save mono Guard. It only costs 360 to add 10 CP to your list.
But if looking at mono DW, then sure, bulk CP are hard to come by. I wasn't looking at them through that lens, though.
Neophyte2012 wrote: If you run into something like Magnus, Mortarion, Flyrant, Swarmlord, Genestealers, Thurnderwolf Carvalry, Necron Wraiths, Eldar Shining Spears, Talos, Ripetide with 3++, Harlequin jetbike / infantries, and last but not the least, Ork boyz
Neophyte2012 wrote: Those CP are expensive, and as marines, Deathwatch won't have that many CP, like Orks or Nidz could, to be burn through.
DW, as Marines, will have as many CP as you can ally in. They are no worse off then any other Imperial faction save mono Guard. It only costs 360 to add 10 CP to your list.
But if looking at mono DW, then sure, bulk CP are hard to come by. I wasn't looking at them through that lens, though.
Neophyte2012 wrote: If you run into something like Magnus, Mortarion, Flyrant, Swarmlord, Genestealers, Thurnderwolf Carvalry, Necron Wraiths, Eldar Shining Spears, Talos, Ripetide with 3++, Harlequin jetbike / infantries, and last but not the least, Ork boyz
Clearly, none of this is what I spoke of.
Yes, IG is the best CP battery. It is my problem of not playing IG, so I never own any Imperial Guard army, only Marines, SW, DW and GK. so the minimun points cost for me in CP battery would be 270pts per 5CP.
Of course, ur original post are not talking about the units which are best dealt with hellfire rounds, but those ones are the most popular units in competitive plays.
Hesselhof wrote:Short Question, can DW use a Xiphon Inceptor from Frogeworld?
The Xiphon lets you put a model on the board from almost anywhere else on the board, point to a model no matter where on the board it was and then push some lascannons into it's face. It's like having an anti-armor sniper that ignore most of the LOS and movement restrictions in the game
grouchoben wrote:I've been running a DW Xiphon all year, it's been pretty good. But it does make your list a bit counterable: a lot of high end lists run a shed load of flyers, and so a lot of people respond to that meta with anti-air tech, which is a problem. Couple that with the expected dawn of the traktor meta, and my Xiphon might be taking a bit of a rest for a while.
Guys this is what im talking about... great stuff. DW i think can do well. sure they ned some help but put together properly they can play competitivly as well as fun.
Apparently Intercessors are getting a 1pt haircut and all termis are going down 3pts, Landraiders are coming down quite a chunk (45-60pts depending on model) and Repulsors are down 25pts. It all adds up to some interesting changes for DW, if true. There's a thread over on news+rumours with the claims, which come from an apparently very solid source.
I'd love for LRs to clock in under 300pts - they become a lot more viable, if still a bit of a gamble.
Rogerio134134 wrote: Cheers guys appreciate the advice, I'll be clipping the meltas off haha. The corvus I now know is a non optimal choice but it was one of the first models I bought and I really like it so I'll try it out.
I wouldn't bother clipping them off if combi-melta's (they are ok to try out etc and run occasionally, I think combi-plasma better, but not worth clipping them off, just get some new marines in the future). If they are normal meltaguns, then ye get rid of them.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
grouchoben wrote: Apparently Intercessors are getting a 1pt haircut and all termis are going down 3pts, Landraiders are coming down quite a chunk (45-60pts depending on model) and Repulsors are down 25pts. It all adds up to some interesting changes for DW, if true. There's a thread over on news+rumours with the claims, which come from an apparently very solid source.
I'd love for LRs to clock in under 300pts - they become a lot more viable, if still a bit of a gamble.
I dont think landraiders are worth it even with a 60 pts reduction (taking the maximum into account ) a God hammer pattern is still around 296, Crusdaer 248 and Redemeer 288, one of the problems with LR's is they can't fall back and shoot.
Though I would love to see them be semi viable to be able to use mine as well.
What do you guys think is the most point efficient/hard(er) hitting/best imperium melee/assault unit apart from Knights and Catachan IS?
Its a very specific question but Id like to know your answers...as for me I think its going to be anything BloodAngel...the +1 to wound is just superior to everything...
Im asking because I want to ally something with a melee punch to my deathwatch!
Wulfen are immense. I had my face stoved in by them in a league game last month. My poor DW didn't know what hit them! A Stormwolf full of Wulfen is a serious proposition.
Any unit in particular? I read a lot about Wulffen?
Wulfen are solid, but even just Blood Claws are good.
You might also like Aggressors as well. Those Power Fists hitting on a 3+ that first round is pretty cool, especially if you didn't have a reroll available.
demontalons wrote: Just out of curiosity what does the chaplain bring to the table?
I would have to agree why take a chaplain over a captain (its like 2 pts more)
Automatically Appended Next Post: Few thing curious on,
What is the TH for the Watch master ( TH usually means thunder hammer, but he can't take)
Why take chaplain when you army is mostly shooting (captain with JP not include weapons is 3 pts more)
Isn't it loyal 32 (3x 10 guard squads and 2 x IGhqs) (would give you more points to spend on your DW for a few combi plasmas or frags etc, better if use teleport strat).
New FAQ posted today for DW. Nothing massive - just a rewording of all movement abilities in Intercessor, Reiver, and Vet squads so they only apply in Movement phase.
demontalons wrote: Just out of curiosity what does the chaplain bring to the table?
I would have to agree why take a chaplain over a captain (its like 2 pts more)
Automatically Appended Next Post: Few thing curious on,
What is the TH for the Watch master ( TH usually means thunder hammer, but he can't take)
Why take chaplain when you army is mostly shooting (captain with JP not include weapons is 3 pts more)
Isn't it loyal 32 (3x 10 guard squads and 2 x IGhqs) (would give you more points to spend on your DW for a few combi plasmas or frags etc, better if use teleport strat).
The Chaplain is just cheap.. and if he gets near combat he has benefits. He gets the relic that allows me to push a unit of Vets forward when i DS the other 3 units in. Brings 4 units of vets into your face.
Sorry Watch Captain not Master
Loyal 32 plus another squad...loyal 42
Necessary for shielding. I found 30 guard was a little to weak for what i was doing. 2 commanders 4 orders for 4 units. run run run is my main order to push out my screen.
The Chaplain is just cheap.. and if he gets near combat he has benefits. He gets the relic that allows me to push a unit of Vets forward when i DS the other 3 units in. Brings 4 units of vets into your face.
A Chaplain with jump pack, bolt pistol and Crozius (base setup) is 91pts. A Watch Captain with Bolt pistol, Master-crafted boltgun and a Power sword (base setup but upgraded chainsword to power sword) is 102pts. 11pts for someone who has +1BS, +1W, +1 A, gives an aura that affects shooting and combat (over re-roll all hits in combat, the crozius stats and the useless LD buff unless primarius). There is no special relic (all can be taken by any character for DW).
You could drop 4 storm bolters for bolt guns (like on your SS guys, to make them cheaper) and would get someone arguably better. (Not how I would run my captain but is cheap). I mean you are not running entire squads of thunder hammers/power fists or even power weapons or anything that justifies a re-roll more than 1 to hit in melee, your squads are better at shooting with some combat ability.
The Chaplain is just cheap.. and if he gets near combat he has benefits. He gets the relic that allows me to push a unit of Vets forward when i DS the other 3 units in. Brings 4 units of vets into your face.
A Chaplain with jump pack, bolt pistol and Crozius (base setup) is 91pts. A Watch Captain with Bolt pistol, Master-crafted boltgun and a Power sword (base setup but upgraded chainsword to power sword) is 102pts. 11pts for someone who has +1BS, +1W, +1 A, gives an aura that affects shooting and combat (over re-roll all hits in combat, the crozius stats and the useless LD buff unless primarius). There is no special relic (all can be taken by any character for DW).
You could drop 4 storm bolters for bolt guns (like on your SS guys, to make them cheaper) and would get someone arguably better. (Not how I would run my captain but is cheap). I mean you are not running entire squads of thunder hammers/power fists or even power weapons or anything that justifies a re-roll more than 1 to hit in melee, your squads are better at shooting with some combat ability.
Just food for thought.
Like i said hes there for cheap and i need the Jump pack.. i dont take him for melee abilities.
I have tested a 2nd JP captain bare bones just for the Relic that allows a squad to redeploy and it is a marked improvement to get 4 squads in range of reroll 1s on shooting attacks. i made an adjustment with the AM to get in that second JP Captain over the derpy Chappy
Yes and it is boss. But against Eldar lightning reflexes does ruin your fun. I've now switched to 2 270pt Fortis teams, 5 intercessors, 5 Hellblasters. They freak people out.
ImPhaeronWeasel wrote: What do you guys think is the most point efficient/hard(er) hitting/best imperium melee/assault unit apart from Knights and Catachan IS?
Its a very specific question but Id like to know your answers...as for me I think its going to be anything BloodAngel...the +1 to wound is just superior to everything...
Im asking because I want to ally something with a melee punch to my deathwatch!
Space wolves is my vote, hitting on 2's rerolling 1's with a wolf lord with a thunder hammer is just nuts. Give any spacewolf a thunderhanmer and watch things get whack-a-moled. Between that and blood claws getting a stupid number of attacks when they charge (3 per guy hitting on 2's? Yes please) thats money.
ImPhaeronWeasel wrote: What do you guys think is the most point efficient/hard(er) hitting/best imperium melee/assault unit apart from Knights and Catachan IS?
Its a very specific question but Id like to know your answers...as for me I think its going to be anything BloodAngel...the +1 to wound is just superior to everything...
Im asking because I want to ally something with a melee punch to my deathwatch!
Space wolves is my vote, hitting on 2's rerolling 1's with a wolf lord with a thunder hammer is just nuts. Give any spacewolf a thunderhanmer and watch things get whack-a-moled. Between that and blood claws getting a stupid number of attacks when they charge (3 per guy hitting on 2's? Yes please) thats money.
Has anyone actually done the math on SpaceWolves vs BloodAngels? Especially on units like SmashCap, WolfLord, Wulfen and DeathCompany?
With SpaceWolves I see the problem of bringing them up the board? Would be „easier“ with Blood Angels I guess...
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: The math says they both win in specific situations. However I give the edge to Space Wolves as they won't cost you all your CP to function.
That's a great point - wwe're a desperately cp-hungry faction as it is, and a BA smashcap vamping all our points away is not a great idea.
grouchoben wrote: Yes and it is boss. But against Eldar lightning reflexes does ruin your fun. I've now switched to 2 270pt Fortis teams, 5 intercessors, 5 Hellblasters. They freak people out.
Do you deepstrike them?? My list is kind of upn in the air at the moment for 2 Fortis kill teams with intercessors and hellblasters and a squad of 5 hellblasters too
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: The math says they both win in specific situations. However I give the edge to Space Wolves as they won't cost you all your CP to function.
That's a great point - wwe're a desperately cp-hungry faction as it is, and a BA smashcap vamping all our points away is not a great idea.
Thats actually a GREAT GREAT point...even if not going for a smashcap, just the deathcompany will cost me CPid rather use on my deathwatch
Using CP for a relatively high percentage chance at a charge that importantly can't be overwatched.
You end up spending significant points on the insertion method for the wolf lord, deepstrike alone won't cut it in most cases. And insertion methods for marines are absolute pants in terms of vehicles, and jump packs and TWC don't make you mobile enough so you can be out maneuvered or just shot off the board.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: Using CP for a relatively high percentage chance at a charge that importantly can't be overwatched.
You end up spending significant points on the insertion method for the wolf lord deepstrike alone won't cut it in most cases. And insertion methods for marines are absolute pants in terms of vehicles, and jump packs and TWC don't make you mobile enough so you can't be out maneuvered or just shot off the board.
Well in that case you might as well do the Supreme Command detachment of Jetbike Captains and a single Flag dude (get that tasty 5++).
Played a joing match yesterday, 1250pts ea. I played Deathwatch, buddy had Knights. Vs 2x1250 Orks (Red Sunz and Deathskullz).
We absolutely annihilated them even though I thought it was all over when they were in our face. TH/SS captain killed 2 warbosses no problem.
So, a quick question going into a 1500pt tournament (not super competitive). When not knowing what you're facing, would you pay the 5pts for an Infernum Halo Launcher or Auspex Array? I feel that the former is the more useful but more situational while the second one is just OK, but more universal.
Armies I know for sure that will be there.....Guard, Drukhari, Knights or Custodes, SOB, Orks.
Current list is roughly, WM and KT in Corvus, KT in teleportarium, TH/SS capt, shooty KT, Ven Dread, Razorback with TL las.
The Corvus is a problem unit. Its efficiency nosedives as soon as it moves, so if I take one now, I generally don't move it, and run it anti-tank with infernum halo. I know it sounds weird, and it is. But I'll plonk it down within 9" of somewhere a killteam wouldn't mind being, and T1 they'll jump out, it'll hover, and the WM will turn it into a damage beast.
I basically can't bear to spend 250pts on a 4+ gunship, it's so swingy. If you are running it as intended, then yeah I think auspex is mandatory almost, as it will be out of bubbles most of the time.
grouchoben wrote: Yes and it is boss. But against Eldar lightning reflexes does ruin your fun. I've now switched to 2 270pt Fortis teams, 5 intercessors, 5 Hellblasters. They freak people out.
Do you deepstrike them?? My list is kind of upn in the air at the moment for 2 Fortis kill teams with intercessors and hellblasters and a squad of 5 hellblasters too
I don't; they start on the board. T2 is a big hit to their damage output & objective game. But I play ITC, and I can often hide their asses pretty well, or at the least give them cover. On the traditional Imperial Ruins building they start on the ground out of LOS then pop up to the upper floors to shoot, no heavy penalty, 2+, it suits them well. If it's a bowling ball world, I'd consider DS'ing them both tbh.
I normally play one on each wing, using the beacon as I see fit to jump one into RF or out of CC. 270pts is expensive, I know, but I like em. They are 20 wounds on 2+ that can dish some damage out, and they love the Beacon. I used to run 10 Hellblasters DS'ing, but I don't know, I feel that can be countered, your 10 hellblasters die quicker, and they contribute nothing to that all-important first turn.
grouchoben wrote: The Corvus is a problem unit. Its efficiency nosedives as soon as it moves, so if I take one now, I generally don't move it, and run it anti-tank with infernum halo. I know it sounds weird, and it is. But I'll plonk it down within 9" of somewhere a killteam wouldn't mind being, and T1 they'll jump out, it'll hover, and the WM will turn it into a damage beast.
I basically can't bear to spend 250pts on a 4+ gunship, it's so swingy. If you are running it as intended, then yeah I think auspex is mandatory almost, as it will be out of bubbles most of the time
The Halo doesn't help you if you hover though so outside of Turn 1 vs flyers, not much point?
I do agree on your general assessment of the Corvus though. I certainly could replace it, but with what?
Getting in to DW. The versatility is incredible, and just plain fun.
With Mixed units (I could not find an answer to this, unless I missed it), if I have a Vanguard Vet in a hth squad of vets. Can I move the vanguard Vet 12", break coherency since the rules say: "If anything causes
a unit to become split up during a battle, it must re-establish its unit coherency the next time it moves." Let the rest of the squad move 6" since that is still the same move that causes the break. Then Charge with the vanguard vet to allow the rest of the squad to get the charge distance thus bringing them back into coherency, thus using the charge as the "next time it moves" to re-establish?
zaahul wrote: Getting in to DW. The versatility is incredible, and just plain fun.
With Mixed units (I could not find an answer to this, unless I missed it), if I have a Vanguard Vet in a hth squad of vets. Can I move the vanguard Vet 12", break coherency since the rules say: "If anything causes
a unit to become split up during a battle, it must re-establish its unit coherency the next time it moves." Let the rest of the squad move 6" since that is still the same move that causes the break. Then Charge with the vanguard vet to allow the rest of the squad to get the charge distance thus bringing them back into coherency, thus using the charge as the "next time it moves" to re-establish?
No. I am certain that I read something somewhere that you have to end your unit in coherency. It is an illegal move to end your units movement outside of coherency.
AC Razorbacks work great for me, but I run MSU Vets. They spiral out of control costwise in my experience, so I often run 5 or 6-mans, SB & CS, one with SS, one with Frag. But I guess you've gone in for a big 10-man with termi? In that case I'd be tempted to save yourself 250pts and spend a CP to teleport them in. It's a whole lot safer for them anyway, and they'll still be hitting the board T2, just like with the Corvus, unless you're dumping them out T1 and hovering. But then, do you really need a transport for that? It's a tricky situation, and for me then best way to square the circle has been with Razorbacks, which also let me split the payload and dash for 2 objectives/support 2 other units. They keep the Corvus' best gun, and are much more of a pain to delete (a LoS block is much easier to achieve, especially in ITC, and they're not such a juicy target ... Just my own experience.
zaahul wrote: Getting in to DW. The versatility is incredible, and just plain fun.
With Mixed units (I could not find an answer to this, unless I missed it), if I have a Vanguard Vet in a hth squad of vets. Can I move the vanguard Vet 12", break coherency since the rules say: "If anything causes
a unit to become split up during a battle, it must re-establish its unit coherency the next time it moves." Let the rest of the squad move 6" since that is still the same move that causes the break. Then Charge with the vanguard vet to allow the rest of the squad to get the charge distance thus bringing them back into coherency, thus using the charge as the "next time it moves" to re-establish?
No. I am certain that I read something somewhere that you have to end your unit in coherency. It is an illegal move to end your units movement outside of coherency.
That somewhere is probably basic rules, right at the starts section "Units":
A unit must be set up and fnish any sort of move as a group, with every model within 2" horizontally, and 6" vertically, of at least one other model from their unit: this is called unit coherency
So if you move you need to end up in coherency. If you can't do that...Well then you can't move would be most likely result though rules don't actually cover that one. You have to restore coherency but legally aren't able to do so. Pretty rare case though. For M6" you would need to be minimum of over 16" from each other(and roll 1 for advance) to accomplish that.
zaahul wrote: Getting in to DW. The versatility is incredible, and just plain fun.
With Mixed units (I could not find an answer to this, unless I missed it), if I have a Vanguard Vet in a hth squad of vets. Can I move the vanguard Vet 12", break coherency since the rules say: "If anything causes
a unit to become split up during a battle, it must re-establish its unit coherency the next time it moves." Let the rest of the squad move 6" since that is still the same move that causes the break. Then Charge with the vanguard vet to allow the rest of the squad to get the charge distance thus bringing them back into coherency, thus using the charge as the "next time it moves" to re-establish?
You can't deliberately move a unit to break its own coherency. There are edge cases as to what happens when coherency is broken via other means, but this isn't the locale to dig deeply into those as they involve primarily horde armies, which Deathwatch aint. You take the mixed units for the special rules they give to the squad, not for their movement shenanigans.
I don't mean to sound dismissive here, its just that this has been a particularly heated subject of late between a few folks who post in this faction subthread (myself included) and out of respect to everyone I want to try to silo that discussion off elsewhere.
Being able to move the Vanguard/Biker from one side to the other to get that much closer to a charge/objective is nice when it matters (keeping coherency of course)
When you go for a mobile fire power unit: Do you use 5xaggressors and 5x intercessors or actually 1x aggressor and 9x intercessors?
Im asking because I really like the 5x aggressor Kill Team but I wont get to use their special ability as Id move them all the time...On the other Hand I want them to move since I do like their power fists and supported by a Watch Master they hit hard in melee too.
Is this another scenario of „Do whatever works the best for you“?
Anyone run bikers as a standalone squad?? There are units I wouldn't mind trying such as bikes but I just don't want to buy them as primaris is obviously going to replace everything.
Terror troops rule and access to shock grenades. Rievers and ABR Intercessors are stat-line identical, but the former has access to those two toys to make the combined squad that much more nasty as a mobile disruptor unit. It's only a 2ppm difference, and well worth the investment IMO.
Rogerio134134 wrote: Anyone run bikers as a standalone squad?? There are units I wouldn't mind trying such as bikes but I just don't want to buy them as primaris is obviously going to replace everything.
I have 4 bikers that I want to add to a kill team with 5 vets and a single vanvet. Then combat attach off the 4 bikes and vanvet so they can still fallback and shoot if they get assaulted. I will also give the vanvet a stormshield to tank some high AP rounds at the bikes. Haven't ran it in a game yet, but they are on the pantning table.
Rogerio134134 wrote: Anyone run bikers as a standalone squad?? There are units I wouldn't mind trying such as bikes but I just don't want to buy them as primaris is obviously going to replace everything.
I have 4 bikers that I want to add to a kill team with 5 vets and a single vanvet. Then combat attach off the 4 bikes and vanvet so they can still fallback and shoot if they get assaulted. I will also give the vanvet a stormshield to tank some high AP rounds at the bikes. Haven't ran it in a game yet, but they are on the pantning table.
I have found 3x bikers and 2x Vanvets (with storm shields) to be the sweet spot when attached to a 5man vet squad and then combat squaded to: 1 unit of 5 vets and 1 unit of 3x Bikes & 2x Vanvets. I was against it when 8th first came out (4-1 biker and vanvet) but for objects they are great. Just through my experiences and opponents 3-2 biker-vanvet has worked a lot better.
The 3x bikers (most time chainswords, but if have a few points may give one a power weapon) & 2x Vanvets (stormshields/bolt pistols) still retains T5 and gives a bit more survive-ability against -Ap and is a bit cheaper. Just depends on who you fighting most or expect to fight most. I just have found that the extra 3++ is more valuable than an extra wound/shots for my fast objective grabbing unit.
Nice, also wondering about the effectiveness of 4 normal vets with a sergeant in the back field with stalker bolt guns to claim objectives? Seems relatively cheap
Rogerio134134 wrote: Nice, also wondering about the effectiveness of 4 normal vets with a sergeant in the back field with stalker bolt guns to claim objectives? Seems relatively cheap
Personally my 5 man counterpart to the biker/vanvet is 5 stalkers/chainswords with a BS and Serg same load out if competitive (so is total 5) (I sometimes do a few Storm shields instead of CS and a missile launcher for 1 marine, it depends on points. Is usually fluffy/fun reason (or for a missile for a strat if I think their is a lot of flyers). My Sergs always have a Xenophase blade, but is totally fluffy reason.
My backfield unit right now is 5 vets, 1 stalker, 2 stalker/stormshield, 1 missile launcher, 1 heavy bolter. For an upcoming small tournament, thinking of adding 2 more stalkers (have 40pts spare) or putting UR-205 in my backfield
Here is two of my normal back field squads/fast objective grabbers in my standard 2k point army (EDIT, Combat squad each 10 obviously to the 5 stalkers and 3 biker/2 Vanvets):
Gives some good forward objective capping and some good back field shooting with some strats if need. I have used these for along time and have always performed well.
bullyboy wrote: My backfield unit right now is 5 vets, 1 stalker, 2 stalker/stormshield, 1 missile launcher, 1 heavy bolter. For an upcoming small tournament, thinking of adding 2 more stalkers (have 40pts spare) or putting UR-205 in my backfield
bullyboy wrote: My backfield unit right now is 5 vets, 1 stalker, 2 stalker/stormshield, 1 missile launcher, 1 heavy bolter. For an upcoming small tournament, thinking of adding 2 more stalkers (have 40pts spare) or putting UR-205 in my backfield
Yeah that's cool mate might try it, I do have a spare missile launcher and 2 storm shields only issue is I only have 2 stalker bolters :-(
It depends on your fortis strategy. You got a big guy you're going to be dropping the strat on regularly? Then I'd recommend splitting your AT among squads. Personally my vet's AT is supplementary, not primary. A heavy bolter here, a fragcannon there, etc.
Ven Dread, TL las, ML 165
Ven Dread, TL las, ML 165
Corvus, Twin AC, blackstar rockets, HB, Infernum Halo 239
Thinking of dropping the Corvus though as it just doesn't get job done. What would be best to replace? Redemptor in teleportarium, AC Razorbacks, more Vets?
I'd shave 70pts off your vet loadouts and go SCA Lev personally. I know, it's utterly predictable. But a bucket of 2+ S7 shots would really help this list imo, and half the time that Corvus is going to be wasted points. Two less stalker leaves you with 30 left to shave, and you won't miss them too much. A big lynchpin will focus your opponent's attention and let your vets do some work.
grouchoben wrote: I'd shave 70pts off your vet loadouts and go SCA Lev personally. I know, it's utterly predictable. But a bucket of 2+ S7 shots would really help this list imo, and half the time that Corvus is going to be wasted points. Two less stalker leaves you with 30 left to shave, and you won't miss them too much. A big lynchpin will focus your opponent's attention and let your vets do some work.
Don't have Leviathan and not planning on getting one. Doesn't feel fluffy to me for Deathwatch. Pretty much restricted to adding more vets, vanvets, terms, bikes, razorbacks, primaris (although I'm hoping to keep the first list Primaris free for now)
That's what I was thinking, but hate to lose the Vanvets/terminator to be able to load into Razorbacks. It does give me a couple units that can get up close quickly, however.
That's what I was thinking, but hate to lose the Vanvets/terminator to be able to load into Razorbacks. It does give me a couple units that can get up close quickly, however.
Honestly the idea Razorbacks transport anything is silly to me. They're basically cheap battle tanks and you should treat them as such.
Ven Dread, TL las, ML 165
Ven Dread, TL las, ML 165
Corvus, Twin AC, blackstar rockets, HB, Infernum Halo 239
Thinking of dropping the Corvus though as it just doesn't get job done. What would be best to replace? Redemptor in teleportarium, AC Razorbacks, more Vets?
Ye I wouldn't run the Corvus unless you really want to for aesthetic reasons. Tourneys mostly are objective related so I would go more vets. Using the models you have posted as a base I would go something like:
1 Battalion
Deep Strike Support elements Watch Captain: JP, Combi-melta, BP, TH = 135pts/6pwr
I gave the PM to the VV over the BS (points reasons could only pick 1) cause VV should be removed towards the end or just before the frags, depends on situation, over giving a VV a SS in this type of unit. Your SS guys and the Termie (depends on AP fired at them) will be taking all the first hits.
On the field from start Watch Captain: Stalker boltgun, BP, Xeno = 86pts/5pwr
Ven Dreadnought: Twin lascannon, Missile launcher = 165pts/8pwr
Ven Dreadnought: Twin lascannon, Missile launcher = 165pts/8pwr
In these combated squads the VV (the combat squads with the bikers) will be taking the first hits and so need a SS. To maintain T5, the VV need to take the first hits and they give the unit 2x guys with a 3++, all situational but (sometimes even if take on a biker first will not matter etc etc).
Comes out to like 1500. I would run it different (some combi-plasma in my teleport element and the VV a plasma pistol in the same teleport element etc etc).
Just some thoughts on your posted list with some extras.
That's too bad, the DW Deredeo does a lot of work, but isn't as soul crushing as a leviathan. Deredeo is actually a well-pointed FW model. Or really close. Everyone respects it, no one complains.
I've gone for tactical flexibility so that I can adjust to the mission and opponent. For example, take the typical smash captain configuration. He can be boosted with the warlord trait Castellan of the Black vault if I think I need to take on Knights etc, and/or given Beacon Angelis to redeploy a unit or if I need to play more defensively initially with a counter, given the Dominus Aegis to give 5+ invuls to Dreads and Razorbacks. Otherwise, the Watch Master can be my warlord with the Tome of Ectoclades/Lord of Hidden Knowledge standard.
My first 10 man kill team is pretty expensive, but was made that way for a specific reason. Being 10 man, I can combat squad it if I need to, plopping 5 of them in a razorback to rush an objective, leaving the other 5 (which will have to include the terminator and vanvet) to stay on foot or be placed in teleportarium. Alternatively, they stay as one large squad in the teleportarium. The second kill team will mostly be in teleportarium unless using Beacon Angelis on the jump pack captain.
My dreads give me some good AT, and air defence, along with the small KT with HB and ML for mortal wounds.
Not great, but I think it can probably be made to work.
Watchmaster tome of ecto , warlord lord of hidden knowledge
Jump Captain thunder hammer
Primaris squad 1
5 intercessors 5 hellblasters Sgt with chainsword
Primaris squad 2
5 intercessors 5 hellblasters Sgt with chainsword
Vet squad
6 vets 2 fragcannon 4 SB and chainsword
Vets
5 vets 3 combi melta 2 SBSS
Vets
5 vets 4 stalker bolters missile launcher 2 SS
Corvus
Asscannon stormstrike auspex scan and hurricanes
Vanguard detachment
Primaris Libby
Primaris apothecary
Ven dread twin las ml Ven dread twin las ml
Basically I don't really think I have enough speed, the main plan is leave the stalker squad and dreads at the back to plink from cover. The 2 big primaris squads in reserve with the captain the vets go in the corvus but not sure what to do with watch master and librarian as my main plan is to use the primaris bomb to wreck the enemy with the jump Captain
Corvus and Melta vets are points that can be optimized, but in truth this close to CA dropping I'm loathe to say anything for fear of it being instantly obsoleted.
I'd also be tempted to use the TL Autocannons for your Ven Dreads, as mass shots are always good. However I think Chapter Approved is supposed to have a price cut for the TL Lascannon so...
I'd also be tempted to use the TL Autocannons for your Ven Dreads, as mass shots are always good. However I think Chapter Approved is supposed to have a price cut for the TL Lascannon so...
Last I saw it was a 10 point decrease which is nice.
Why is melta regarded as bad? It looks great on paper, 2 d6 pick the highest damage seems good. Not that I've played this edition yet but hey! My first game Thursday so I guess I'll find out.
Tempted to just chop the meltas off put storm bolters and extra dudes in.
Melta is only good on a unit that can safely deliver it up to Rapid Fire range and potentially survive more than 1 turn that close.
Durable deep strikers are something marines in general lack. The closest thing is Terminators and Sanguinary guard, and neither of those units can pack a lot of melta.
Sometimes a dreadnought can get away with packing a multi-melta, but that's only because melta is one of the cheaper weapon options for a dread and they usually don't die instantly unless your opponent has nothing else worth shooting their heavy weapons at.
Eihnlazer wrote: Melta is only good on a unit that can safely deliver it up to Rapid Fire range and potentially survive more than 1 turn that close.
Durable deep strikers are something marines in general lack. The closest thing is Terminators and Sanguinary guard, and neither of those units can pack a lot of melta.
Sometimes a dreadnought can get away with packing a multi-melta, but that's only because melta is one of the cheaper weapon options for a dread and they usually don't die instantly unless your opponent has nothing else worth shooting their heavy weapons at.
For 27 points that's still a no-go, especially that when moving it'll shoot AT BEST on a 3+.
Lemme make my point a little more clear.
1. For the price, TL Lascannons really aren't that much more expensive, especially when they're gonna get a price reduction.
2. That means, for the points, that's more shots.
3. Let us assume you took just a regular Dread for whatever reason. I dunno. It moved and now it'll shoot. On average that's maybe a 75% chance to land the hit (I know the math isn't that accurate there). With a Lascannon, the average dictates a guaranteed hit even without the Salamander reroll. That means you can expect maybe both shots to land most of the time.
4. Your not-very-dangerous targets are wounded at the same rate (anything T7 and below). Anything T8-9 will be more likely wounded by the Lascannon.
For that reason, I would even use TL Autocannons for Salamanders. They trick you into trying to use single shot weapons, and that's part of why Salamnders suck, and that's what I mean by more shots = more rerolls.
Sterling191 wrote: Thought just occurred to me, if lascannons are getting cheaper, will that extend to MLs as well?
Would be an unexpected boost for 4x Stalker, 1x ML Vet teams (beyond any baseline price cuts).
Better yet, if twin las drops 10 points to 40, will that mean a similar drop to the lastalon? They're already 40, but aren't equal to the TLC due to a significant range difference. Hope to see a drop in their points as well.
If that happens, since Repulsors are already rumoured to drop 25 points, another 10 from TLC results in a sub 300 point flying land raider for the whole las package. A drop to las talon makes that even juicier.
Repulsors have been pretty viable for Primaris only forces in the lower end of tournament play, and it's unlikely CA will provide enough changes to marines that they all of a sudden end up competitive at the top end, but it'd be interesting to see the Repulsor more often. If so, what kind of Fortis Kill Teams do you think would work best inside?
Repulsors have been pretty viable for Primaris only forces in the lower end of tournament play, and it's unlikely CA will provide enough changes to marines that they all of a sudden end up competitive at the top end, but it'd be interesting to see the Repulsor more often. If so, what kind of Fortis Kill Teams do you think would work best inside?
Assuming you're going for the Quad-Las for anti-armor work, the natural complement to that is either a 5x Hellblaster Fortis team, or just going straight for Hellblasters. A full-in Repulsor has an insane amount of anti-chaff guns so the Intercessor streetsweeper is less necessary, though their capacity to serve as ablative wounds for Hellblasters is till a consideration.
Only problem comes in with figuring out how to deliver the Watch Captain / Master reroll bubble. Teleport is the obvious choice that doesnt force a 9-man Fortis squad. Jump pack is another way to go.
I've been away from the game for a while (my local store closed down), and I'm looking to get back into the game. My usual army is a bunch of filthy green skinned xenos, but I got some deathwatch models as a gift, and I'm trying to lay out a proper army where I don't have to lug around 90+ models wherever I go. Would you mind giving some thoughts?
Brigade Detachment #1:
HQ: Watch Captain (Jumpack): SB with the Bane Bolts, TH, BP
HQ: Watch Captain: Stalker BG, BP, Power Axe
Troops: Vets (10 total): Sargent & Blackshield: SB and Power Sword. 2 Vets: Frag Cannons. 3 Vets: SB and SS. 3 Vets: SB and CS
Troops: Vets (10 total): Sargent & Blackshield: SB and Power Sword. 3 Vets: SB and SS. 5 Vets: SB and CS
Troops: Intercessors (10 total): Sargent & 4 Intercessors: BP & Stalker Bolt Rifles. 5 Hellblasters: Heavy Plasma Incinerators.
Brigade Detachment #2:
HQ: Watch Captain: SB & TH
HQ: Dreadnaught Chaplain: Assault Cannon with Warlord Trait for 2 damage, SB, Dreadnaught Combat Weapon.
Troops: Intercessors (10 total): Sargent & 4 Intercessors: BP & Stalker Bolt Rifles. 5 Hellblasters: Heavy Plasma Incinerators.
Dedicated Transport: Razorback: Twin AC
Dedicated Transport: Razorback: Twin AC
The general idea is this:
The Intercessors stay in terrain at the back with the stalker watch captain to hold objectives and provide long-ish ranged fire support.
The 5 man squads and the SBTH footsloging capatin ride in the razorbacks and give me some more on the field presence.
The Jetpack captain, two 10 man vets squads, and the chaplain all deepstrike (via jetpack & command points) and are my main attack force come turn 2.
The biggest issue I seem to have is where am I going to get anti-tank? I'm trying for pure deathwatch (IG allies would be great, I'm sure, but the whole point is to go small model count compared to my orks), so I know my options are limited. Are the Hellbasters any good at it? They seem like a fair option alongside my TH wielding captains (that may just be the Ork in me wanting to smash things up close). I feel like with storm bolters and special issue ammo, I've got anti-infantry for days.
Anyways, thoughts and general tactical advice are greatly appreciated. Thanks!
Stalker Bolt Rifles and Heavy Incinerators are a trap. You'll get nearly equivalent long range output from their Rapid Fire versions, while gaining mobility and a devastating punch under 15". Massed Hellblasters (ideally with a reroll bubble from a WM/WC) make for serviceable AT, but it's not ideal and can get hamstrung by enemies that can stack negative to-hit modifiers.
Yeah Stalker Bolt Rifles are garbage. The Vets with their Stalkers are okay-ish when camping in cover if you're into that sorta thing. I would hope for enough price drops that I can run 5 Vets with Stalkers and a CML Terminator. Would be SWEEEEEET.
Sterling191 wrote: Stalker Bolt Rifles and Heavy Incinerators are a trap. You'll get nearly equivalent long range output from their Rapid Fire versions, while gaining mobility and a devastating punch under 15". Massed Hellblasters (ideally with a reroll bubble from a WM/WC) make for serviceable AT, but it's not ideal and can get hamstrung by enemies that can stack negative to-hit modifiers.
Sterling191 wrote: Stalker Bolt Rifles and Heavy Incinerators are a trap. You'll get nearly equivalent long range output from their Rapid Fire versions, while gaining mobility and a devastating punch under 15". Massed Hellblasters (ideally with a reroll bubble from a WM/WC) make for serviceable AT, but it's not ideal and can get hamstrung by enemies that can stack negative to-hit modifiers.
But if the rumors are true and negative to hit modifiers become +armor saves it buffs Plasma with its -4AP.
I also think that allying SM that ignore cover for AT (if all units get chapter tactics) will be VERY strong for Deathwatch!
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Yeah Stalker Bolt Rifles are garbage. The Vets with their Stalkers are okay-ish when camping in cover if you're into that sorta thing. I would hope for enough price drops that I can run 5 Vets with Stalkers and a CML Terminator. Would be SWEEEEEET.
Funnily enough, if Primaris got Stalker Pattern Boltguns (not bolt rifles) I'd consider them almost instantly for backfield objective camping. Bump SBRs to SBG weight of fire and they'd be exceptional long range fire support units.
But if the rumors are true and negative to hit modifiers become +armor saves it buffs Plasma with its -4AP.
I also think that allying SM that ignore cover for AT (if all units get chapter tactics) will be VERY strong for Deathwatch!
Chapter Tactics (and their factional equivalents) are not the sole source of negative hit modifiers. Unless/until the Kill Team rules of self-immolation happen (unmodified 1s not results of 1) Hellblasters are hard countered by specific armored configurations.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Yeah Stalker Bolt Rifles are garbage. The Vets with their Stalkers are okay-ish when camping in cover if you're into that sorta thing. I would hope for enough price drops that I can run 5 Vets with Stalkers and a CML Terminator. Would be SWEEEEEET.
Funnily enough, if Primaris got Stalker Pattern Boltguns (not bolt rifles) I'd consider them almost instantly for backfield objective camping. Bump SBRs to SBG weight of fire and they'd be exceptional long range fire support units.
But if the rumors are true and negative to hit modifiers become +armor saves it buffs Plasma with its -4AP.
I also think that allying SM that ignore cover for AT (if all units get chapter tactics) will be VERY strong for Deathwatch!
Chapter Tactics (and their factional equivalents) are not the sole source of negative hit modifiers. Unless/until the Kill Team rules of self-immolation happen (unmodified 1s not results of 1) Hellblasters are hard countered by specific armored configurations.
Hard counters would be -1 to hit stratagems, psy spells or flyers, WL traits and so on mostly only work on the character having the WL trait so im not counting them.
If minus 1 becomes cover (even if it becomes additional cover so +2) Plasma will still bring most things down to a 4+ save.
Palleus wrote: Ok. So if the heavy incinerators are out for a good anti-tank option, what's good?
LasBacks, Lascannon Tarantulas (well they're not exactly great but super easy to add in, which is maybe the only positive), spammed +1 to Wound Strats, and lastly maybe allied Predators (assuming they're okay after Chapter Approved).
That's about all I got.
Palleus wrote: Ok. So if the heavy incinerators are out for a good anti-tank option, what's good?
I wouldn't consider any thing in the DW codex good dedicated anti-armour for points (this is pre-CA18).
But some units/models that can do the job, be not over the top in points and are more geared towards AT are:
Normal codex:
Jump Captain: Combi-melta and Thunder hammer. My favourite unit in the codex for me, if use him wisely with support elements.
Some Combi-plasmas in a teleport stratagem squad: Depends how configure the rest of the squad. But, the models that have combi-plasma's can be effective against vehicles and heavy infantry or even light infantry. They need support by a captain to be super effective and not detrimental, so need to take into account.
Ven Dread with twin las and missile: Is kinda expensive and if don't have back field support usually crap, but offer consistent ranged hitting power and a little survivability (espec if they have screen or a support element each). If go a HQ support for re-rolls, just a captain is fine with them (cause if move or stand still is the same buff even if had a master near them for shooting).
Razor with twin las: Depends what using it for. Is ok if use it as a fire point and not a transport or you have a unit inside to protect them from first round fire and then they move out instantly (however, if have a unit inside is such a points sink for DW). If want a 'transport' for a squad go twin HB's cause they won't be targeted (twin AC's are good, but people tend to target them more and they cost almost same as twin Lascannons, is all dependent on situation/composition/need of army etc).
Forge World:
Is many good options, but take a good chunk of points. One I really like for cost is (because we are already expensive and this is easy to add in):
Rapier Weapons Carrier with Quad mortar: Can give some out of LOS fire if need but if get them to within 24" (or enemy gets to within 24") are ok.
Is a lot of other dedicated or AT options in the Codex but they are to expensive atm
I don't run primaris often so I can't comment on them.
There's also the Las Vindicator from FW but I honestly don't know any of the math behind it. If someone could chime in with that, I'd appreciate it and I'm sure everyone else here would too.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: There's also the Las Vindicator from FW but I honestly don't know any of the math behind it. If someone could chime in with that, I'd appreciate it and I'm sure everyone else here would too.
I don't own any of them, but looks good for only 183 pts on paper (unless update I missed, I'm not a huge tank fan, I own from FW in regards to DW: LR achillies, but more leviathans/doredo's/deathstorms/tarantulars/rapiers etc). More go for the strike force element/fluff and also bought what I thought was cool.
Though I don't think (if it is that points) it will stay that way much longer. It is a major fire card (as in draw fire, but could do damage) which is great. But then it is a major fire card (I wouldn't bank on it being your main AT, not that it would be. It's more if get first turn awesome, maybe, if don't its dead).
It's 183 however, a Ven dread is 'only' 165... (if going the stand and shoot option) and then a rapier quad is 'only' 100. Those points may seem small differences, but for DW every point helps.
Interested in the math as well (I wouldn't use, not to my play style). But good suggestion for a AT unit for all.
First game in 8th tonight with 2k Deathwatch list no idea what I'm facing! I have 2 large units of primaris 5 intercessors 4 hellblasters 1 inceptor not sure to deep strike them or not due to I want them to be firing the whole game and being buffed by the watch master and apothecary
Rogerio134134 wrote: First game in 8th tonight with 2k Deathwatch list no idea what I'm facing! I have 2 large units of primaris 5 intercessors 4 hellblasters 1 inceptor not sure to deep strike them or not due to I want them to be firing the whole game and being buffed by the watch master and apothecary
Depends on if you're playing on planet bowling ball.
Rogerio134134 wrote: First game in 8th tonight with 2k Deathwatch list no idea what I'm facing! I have 2 large units of primaris 5 intercessors 4 hellblasters 1 inceptor not sure to deep strike them or not due to I want them to be firing the whole game and being buffed by the watch master and apothecary
Depends on if you're playing on planet bowling ball.
Played on a terrain heavy board, chose to deep strike 1 unit it failed to even wipe out a single unit of 7 plauge marines...
So if some of those heavy weapon changes from the BA/DA list transfer directly to DW, Dreadnoughts just got a *lot* more interesting.
A little disappointed regular Vets dont seem to be getting a base cost drop (as they're apparently only a point cheaper than Intercessors), but without the weapon costs I don't think we've got enough info yet to make a call.
Bolt pistol tax is gone, all Primaris appear to be -1 PPM, Vets are 14 PPM. Stormshields at 2 points (10 for characters). MLs at 20 points, TLs at 40, Plasma cannons at 16
Deathwatch got some SUPER strong buffs with this one. for 2 POINTS you can give your veterans a 3++. THATS STUPID. For 20 points you can have the storm shield storm bolter loadout and be pretty dang durable with a 3++ and put out very respectable damage. Or if you want to sit back you can go with a stalker bolter for 1 POINT and storm shield 2 POINTS for a 17 point model that spits out SIA -1 rounds at 30 inches and has a 3++. Primaris intercessors going down 2 points ppm (base and pistol tax) is great, but I don't think they can compare to HOW ABSURD 2 point storm shields make veterans.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: Deathwatch got some SUPER strong buffs with this one. for 2 POINTS you can give your veterans a 3++. THATS STUPID. For 20 points you can have the storm shield storm bolter loadout and be pretty dang durable with a 3++ and put out very respectable damage. Or if you want to sit back you can go with a stalker bolter for 1 POINT and storm shield 2 POINTS for a 17 point model that spits out SIA -1 rounds at 30 inches and has a 3++. Primaris intercessors going down 2 points ppm (base and pistol tax) is great, but I don't think they can compare to HOW ABSURD 2 point storm shields make veterans.
Stalker Bolt Rifle is the Intercessor weapon, not the Stalker Pattern Boltgun that Vets can take.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: Deathwatch got some SUPER strong buffs with this one. for 2 POINTS you can give your veterans a 3++. THATS STUPID. For 20 points you can have the storm shield storm bolter loadout and be pretty dang durable with a 3++ and put out very respectable damage. Or if you want to sit back you can go with a stalker bolter for 1 POINT and storm shield 2 POINTS for a 17 point model that spits out SIA -1 rounds at 30 inches and has a 3++. Primaris intercessors going down 2 points ppm (base and pistol tax) is great, but I don't think they can compare to HOW ABSURD 2 point storm shields make veterans.
Stalker Bolt Rifle is the Intercessor weapon, not the Stalker Pattern Boltgun that Vets can take.
Ahh ok that is much better! Thank you very much for correcting me. Still though the storm bolter set up is really good. 200 points for 10 of those boys deepstriking down into rapid fire spewing out four shots each wounding any none-vehicle on 2 and even against vehicles being ap-1 is really solid offense and on top of that they all have 3++ invulnerable saves. Two of those deepstriking down is a lot of hurt. And if you want you could swap out 1 vet for a vangaurd vet with dual pistols who can let you fall back and shoot.
4 point drop on Bikes makes the Vet combat squad shenanigans even more interesting. A pod of three bikes plus two dual-pistol VanVets would be 109. That's a *lot* of mobile T5 SIA dakka. with ObSec
Sterling191 wrote: 4 point drop on Bikes makes the Vet combat squad shenanigans even more interesting. A pod of three bikes plus two dual-pistol VanVets would be 109. That's a *lot* of mobile T5 SIA dakka. with ObSec
My question would be why take that when you can just take more stormshield storm bolter veterans?
My question would be why take that when you can just take more stormshield storm bolter veterans?
Because you can only deepstrike 3 units via strats, and mobility is an asset.
To have that squad you are already breaking off from 5 veterans so those guys have to be somewhere so that means they're either deepstriking, riding in a vehicle or camping in the back with stalkers. If they're deepstriking then it's too late to split up. If they are in a vehicle then theres the mobility issue solved. The stalker option is not bad and I can see our point about mobility, but I must admit I am skeptical of the survivability of a little 5 man team with no invulns. But you know with that 4 point drop it did make those bikers even better and they were already pretty good.
Sterling191 wrote: 4 point drop on Bikes makes the Vet combat squad shenanigans even more interesting. A pod of three bikes plus two dual-pistol VanVets would be 109. That's a *lot* of mobile T5 SIA dakka. with ObSec
My question would be why take that when you can just take more stormshield storm bolter veterans?
The ability to get in fast and lock a unit in combat (ergo forcing it to fallback) is a powerful tool.
I'm thinking that, with the cuts to Ven Dreads, it is plausible to get 2-3 camping with a Watch Master and some Stalker Vets. It's expensive but makes for a nice lineup.
just looking through the codex and i think my list has dropped in points by quite a significant amount.
Ive got 2 Ven dreads with TL and ML and alone they are 50 points less combined. Also got a backline camping squad of veterans with Stalkers and a missile launcher so im pretty pleased right now.
I’m going to have to get more vanguard veterans! With bolt pistols now being free, we can have VVets with two special-ammo pistols each, cowboy style.
With inferno pistols dropping to 7 points and storm shields dropping to 2, I’m tempted to run flying tank killers with 3++ armor. Maybe with a few well-protected ones with 2 inferno pistols each!
Whooo daddy these are some friendly buffs! I think a big winner is the Ven. -10pts, -5 off the ML, -10 off the TLC equals 140pts for some decent firepower.
But we now have TLC and fist option looking a lot more viable at 152pts, thanks to 10 off the fist. I do actually like this loadout I have to say, as it transforms the little boxy fella into a bit of a counter-assault nightmare.
I have mixed feelings about the Shield points drop. It feels way too cheap imo - I don't know if primaris are really worth it now. 159pt buys you 5 SS/SB vets, a pistol van vet and an Axe terminator. That's a rock solid unit at a very cheap price, DS'ing in with 26 SIA shots, that only has problems against mortal wounds in the counter attack. People are going to start hating playing us.
On average think I got about 10% or more off on my standard 2k lists.
After watching
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8Q07rUVH4M (didn't go over the forgeworld differences, arh well I can wait a week) EDIT: DW is about at 1:02:56 (time stamp)
Re-did a few of my standard 2k points armies and had between 180pts - 210pts or so left over now (I don't run any primaris, so if run them prob more).
Allowed me to add in a few novelties.
Have to wait and see if good for balance or ... (if a lot of units/weapons in multiple armies get a price reduction etc defeats the point). Haven't had time to look at my other armies, DW was just first one I looked at.
Disappointed that Deathwatch shotguns got no love or changes (maybe there is something in there?).
Also sad that Stalker boltguns got no reduction (Vet marine weapon) was hoping for a point off.
Infernus heavy bolter still the same (still never gunna run it then).
Assault cannons seem to be more expensive than lascannons now (as in the twin linked variety, but maybe I am wrong. I do have a list or 2 I run with some twin AC in 2k (is my mechanised list. Most of my armies/lists I prefer lots of infantry/vet squads over vehicles), seems even more pricey now, twin las and twin assault are different roles, but still).
With the reduction in points to standard vets, what are people thinking about in regards to heavy weapons squads as backline projectors? I’m thinking 3 missile launchers
Also would a full squad of plasma vets be viable to make sure a knight/ monster gets crippled and or deleted
If my calculations are correct this list with the CA drops should be 970points.
Id like to hear your opinions on it.
I’ll definitely be facing Knights again but also Drukhari (won the last tournament), Admech, Necrons, Guard, Nids
With the remaining points I would stock up on Stormbolters.
All the stuff of Deathwatch I have is:
2x start collecting (20vets, 2 artemis, 2 VenDreads with TwinLas and Fist)
2x Librarian
1x converted TH Cap.
1x Box of intercessors
6x Aggressors
1x box of hellblasters
3x Reivers
I'm thinking of switching out the assault cannons on my Corvus for lascannons. It's not that we really need the increased shots with our vets. being cheaper is quite strange. Should probably just magnetize anyway.
My only issue is that I have quite a lot of dudes without stormshields, which is crazy now. Shotguns still worthless, will save them for narrative games. Overall, some nice drops.
Unfortunate that have that squad of shotguns still. Seeing as they're only 17 points now though it ain't as bad...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
demontalons wrote: With the reduction in points to standard vets, what are people thinking about in regards to heavy weapons squads as backline projectors? I’m thinking 3 missile launchers
Also would a full squad of plasma vets be viable to make sure a knight/ monster gets crippled and or deleted
I think the ML went down to 20, which is nice, but that's a 29 point model. I don't think that's exactly a great idea. I feel we still need to rely on allies for being campers for the most part.
However, the LasBack got a slight point decrease which makes them attractive for sure. Still think the math favors the Assault Cannon though.
After these changes I feel really damn idiotic for building all this Deathwatch Primaris stuff. Vets are now better than Primaris in nearly every way, and they were already pretty much there.
Whoever thought Primaris were ever going to realistically replace the ugly minimarines clearly didn't see CA or Vigilus Campaign book coming...
demontalons wrote: With the reduction in points to standard vets, what are people thinking about in regards to heavy weapons squads as backline projectors? I’m thinking 3 missile launchers
Also would a full squad of plasma vets be viable to make sure a knight/ monster gets crippled and or deleted
Go combi-plasma. They're the same price, but in a pinch they can fire both (using the baseline plasma shot) and basically be as deadly as storm bolters against chaff even with the -1 to hit.
Lemon you sound certain about that, but tbh intercessor squads still look stronger to me againgst everything except for overcharged plasma and autocannons.
I agree with Lemon. Storm bolter + Storm Shield, with a termi in the squad for 2+ and an optional van vet for CC-tie-up immunity is a solid solid squad now. Better defensive profile and better guns.
I'm playing my Watch in a 1500pt event on the 22nd but we are not using CA new points. 3 Kill teams (1 shooty with stalkers, HB, 2 general with usual mix of SBs, SS, frag, term and VV), 2 ven dreads, 1 RB w twin las, corvus and Libby plus TH/SS capt.
The very same list will cost only 1326pts after next week, that's downright crazy. I also need more SSs.
I see the point in magnatising like Leviathans, Land raiders or models over like $100AU
Razorbacks don't even need to magnatise just don't glue many of the bits (same with dreadnoughts)
Normal troops. Just make more. They are cheap and easy and it's so much of a pain in the ass to have a million bits magnatised. I have big armies so I have the option to take pretty much whatever I want.
But I did magnatise a lot of my other, older space marine armies ages ago and the time it took and so many loose parts etc... is a pain to much than worth...Hence my DW I just glue everything and made a lot.
Expensive models, ye magnatise, but standard troops...arh stuff that.
But each to own, depends on how big army etc or how many armies have, space etc.
The termi drop is a bigger deal for us than anybody else imo, as one in a vet team has always been a good but expensive option. Power axe termi is now cheap enough to sneak in a team without too much pain. Combined with the increase in 3++ stacking, our vets are now a defense to be reckoned with.
grouchoben wrote: The termi drop is a bigger deal for us than anybody else imo, as one in a vet team has always been a good but expensive option. Power axe termi is now cheap enough to sneak in a team without too much pain. Combined with the increase in 3++ stacking, our vets are now a defense to be reckoned with.
Termies are usually (and have always been) in our vet squads to absorb non AP fire (have the storm shield vets to absorb -AP fire) you want your termie to be as cheap as possible. I do run space wolf termies in my DW with axes (cause fluff) but depends on unit or if going totally efficient. Unless power axes are reduced to 4 points over 5 I don't see the point unless fluff (if want strength for like Dark eldar, harlies etc or something go Power maul). If want the axe for T4 equivalents, no point cause you prob die to shooting and if don't is a waste of a point just in case (unless for fluff, fluff or fun is the main thing, I think)
EDIT:
Not much has changed just we get more points since CA18. We have always taken a cheap termie to absorb non AP damage, we have always taken 1-3 vets with SS to absorb -AP damage. Combi-plasma has always been good for tele strat units (with a Jump captain in support), VanVets have always been taken to allow fallback and shoot etc etc. Now stuff is just cheaper. Only thing I see different is I get more points to spend.
Things that may change:
Bikers more prevalent.
Maybe a few more vet SS but tbh if you weren't taking 1-3 per squad as was...
VanVets: with SS/bolt pistol, perfect model with bikers for a combat squad (maybe see more of them)
VanVets with duel Plasma pistols (I have a few of them. But at 14pts for weaps on top of model was a stretch before CA18, but now for a VV and 2x Plasma Pistols= 27pts is a good model for a tele strat unit (they are one of the last removed models from the squad and is and an awesome looking model).
More Ven dreads: Twin las/missile (was an iffy back line unit before CA18 a bit expensive, now after is ok)
Correct. 80 for the unit, 40 for the TLC, 20 for the ML.
yep, this is great, I just built 2 for a local tournament in a few weeks (although we will be using old points since CA drops too soon). Plan to have a JP Capt with TH/SS and then decide each game if I want to start out with Dominus Aegis (castle with dreads, lasback, corvus Turn 1) or Beacon Angelus (he is a BA capt afterall).
In my test games:
Termies serve as my 2+ no AP bullet catchers. I wanted to run 2 in my units but points wouldnt allow. Now with CA i can. it works great. having 4 2+ saves has worked wonders in keeping the unit up and running. In cover i still get 2+ save vs AP1 shots.
VanVets just allow me to back out and shoot again, No change here
Regular Vets w/SS are just money. 5 dudes with 3++ makes for a very very durable unit.
Bikes: Key in the unit for being able to bounce back into combat after leaving. Im not entirely sold on running 2 just yet as opposed to a 6th 3++ Vet. However the 2 bikes allow for some serious squad movement an helps keep the unit in coherency. Helps with multi charging things as well. Offers an additional wound.
4 Units of these guys put out serious hurt against basically anything other than Armour. 3 dropping in and 1 moving with the relic adds very good board control.
These units are my must haves in friendly and competitive games.
Friendlies i just mix in some other DW units such as Dreads and RBs (dont have the flyer)
Competitive DW need the Castellian. Its a must have as well. RBs or Dreads can make a try at it..and against non Knight lists it can work.. unfortunatly if your up against another list running one. Your Vehicle units go away..
Second in competitive you really need the Loyal 32 for screens and 5 more CP . Not necessary in Friendly..
Consider swapping the double chainswords on the VanVet for pistols? They're gonna be free and will actually boost melee output by giving you an equivalent number of SIA bullets (albeit in the shooting phase, but you get the idea).
Sterling191 wrote: Consider swapping the double chainswords on the VanVet for pistols? They're gonna be free and will actually boost melee output by giving you an equivalent number of SIA bullets (albeit in the shooting phase, but you get the idea).
yea good point. I forgot that the Pistol would now be free.
I've not worked out my list yet but thinking of putting lascannon on the corvus now. I've gained over 100 points to play with which is awesome I think I'll be adding in some termites and vv for my vet squads.
Rogerio134134 wrote: I've not worked out my list yet but thinking of putting lascannon on the corvus now. I've gained over 100 points to play with which is awesome I think I'll be adding in some termites and vv for my vet squads.
Another benefit of Primaris Kill Teams would be against Mortal Wounds. Intercessors were more point efficient than scouts at soaking them before the point reduction. I usually run 2 Battalions anyways, so I will probably keep with the 3 Primaris and 3 Regular vets that I was doing before. I already had 2 Dreads too so all those point reductions make me a happy Xenos Slayer.
Spectral Ceramite wrote: I see the point in magnatising like Leviathans, Land raiders or models over like $100AU
Razorbacks don't even need to magnatise just don't glue many of the bits (same with dreadnoughts)
Normal troops. Just make more. They are cheap and easy and it's so much of a pain in the ass to have a million bits magnatised. I have big armies so I have the option to take pretty much whatever I want.
But I did magnatise a lot of my other, older space marine armies ages ago and the time it took and so many loose parts etc... is a pain to much than worth...Hence my DW I just glue everything and made a lot.
Expensive models, ye magnatise, but standard troops...arh stuff that.
But each to own, depends on how big army etc or how many armies have, space etc.
Deathwatch have way too many options to keep enough of every weapon combination as separate models. Keep in mind you're not just saving on money, but painting and basing time as well.
It's not hard, a Dremel can get the torso fully drilled in a minute and each arm is another 30 seconds, tops.
Spectral Ceramite wrote: I see the point in magnatising like Leviathans, Land raiders or models over like $100AU
Razorbacks don't even need to magnatise just don't glue many of the bits (same with dreadnoughts)
Normal troops. Just make more. They are cheap and easy and it's so much of a pain in the ass to have a million bits magnatised. I have big armies so I have the option to take pretty much whatever I want.
But I did magnatise a lot of my other, older space marine armies ages ago and the time it took and so many loose parts etc... is a pain to much than worth...Hence my DW I just glue everything and made a lot.
Expensive models, ye magnatise, but standard troops...arh stuff that.
But each to own, depends on how big army etc or how many armies have, space etc.
Deathwatch have way too many options to keep enough of every weapon combination as separate models. Keep in mind you're not just saving on money, but painting and basing time as well.
It's not hard, a Dremel can get the torso fully drilled in a minute and each arm is another 30 seconds, tops.
yeah.. i had a box of unbuilt Normal marines laying around. Gave them a bunch of the different weapon options that DW can use on there Tac squads so i could play around with the different options. Painted them black and no one would know the difference.
I magnetized the first 2 squads of Tac Marines when I started my Ravenguard in 6th... I hated it and ended up super-gluing the magnets together. I just build and glue WYSIWYG now and buy more/break off and reglue when the edition changes dictate
Spectral Ceramite wrote: I see the point in magnatising like Leviathans, Land raiders or models over like $100AU
Razorbacks don't even need to magnatise just don't glue many of the bits (same with dreadnoughts)
Normal troops. Just make more. They are cheap and easy and it's so much of a pain in the ass to have a million bits magnatised. I have big armies so I have the option to take pretty much whatever I want.
But I did magnatise a lot of my other, older space marine armies ages ago and the time it took and so many loose parts etc... is a pain to much than worth...Hence my DW I just glue everything and made a lot.
Expensive models, ye magnatise, but standard troops...arh stuff that.
But each to own, depends on how big army etc or how many armies have, space etc.
Deathwatch have way too many options to keep enough of every weapon combination as separate models. Keep in mind you're not just saving on money, but painting and basing time as well.
It's not hard, a Dremel can get the torso fully drilled in a minute and each arm is another 30 seconds, tops.
All perspective. If you have say 50 Vets (and is all you want), is easy to have them on your shelf and a box (like a large jewelry box/hobby container) beside with multiple options for them all and have them all magnatised.
When you have tens of thousands of points of models. Having little pieces everywhere or having to change stuff all the time is just annoying, especially if have many armies. It's easier for me to go and look at my shelves for the options I want on say my DW (I probably will have it). If I don't have it I go build one or a couple. That's what is fun for me. If I don't have it, I will have parts in my bits boxes and build it.
Initially I was pretty disappointed with the CA2018 changes mainly due to the lack of change on basic marine bodies, I play BA and vanilla marines and really just wanted to field some tactical's and rhinos again.
Then I looked at the deathwatch points drops! Vets dropped two points, termies a load including equipment, landraiders, blackstar, bikes, dreads, basically everything I used.
My complete collection of DW minis used to come to about 2300pts I just recosted it to be about 2000pts :-) This makes it alot more viable for an army I mainly just use as a fluffy fun force.
As far as magnets go I still use them a fair bit (a magnet costs alot less than even the cheapest model and take about a minutes to do per) always on vehicle options but less so on infantry now.
I once did my whole Grey knights army with every option, worked well but was a huge pain to play with.Now if I magnetise my infantry I do them at the shoulder as most people do but I do it so that the shoulder pad is glued in place and you slide the magnetised arm up into place, I find it looks alot better and that there is none of the usual magnet wobble.
You can tell they are trying to push the primaris vibe across normal marine chapters (meh, not buying more marines anymore, even bigger ones, if I want more I will buy xenos...the heresy). At least DW stood the tide and got some good points reductions in CA18... (Just looked at rest of CA18).
Can say for DW after CA18, DW are better (as in they went up a peg or two in comparison to other factions). Other factions (say Imperial guard) got unneeded buffs (no determent to the loyal crux 32), Chaos got shafted a bit, some good buff's on Tau will have to test to see and GK really are crap still tbh.
All in all DW came out ahead (in comparison to others), even if didn't address little things like our shotguns etc (I just love the look of the model).
https://spikeybits.com/2018/12/from-0-to-hero-did-vigilus-ca-fix-primaris-marines.html I wonder if any of the Vigilus strats etc. will effect our primaris units. If so we could make a unit with stalker bolt rifles snipe characters and cause mortals on 6s. Also potential to make them rapid fire 2. This could be great for us if so. Use kraken rd for extra 6" and -1ap. That would be 2 shots each @ 21" -3ap mortals on 6s that can pick out characters.
We may not get that as it is way better than normal snipers. Although it would cost 3cp to do this it could be great.
yeah, Deathwatch definitely got a significant buff in this CA. Although core issues such as the Corvus and it's Heavy Weapons didn't change, the overall points drops are encouraging. In fact, I don't even know where to start. Super happy to give this a good run through this weekend.
Terminators being 32 points with a power axe and storm bolter is pretty solid I think. They do not have the raw firepower of a veteran squad and trade a 2 point 3++ for a 2+ and 5++, but for 12 more points you do get two wounds and a vastly better melee profile on top of always being able to deepstrike no CP required. If you want you can mix and match in a cyclone missile for 38 points or a thunder hammer stormshield for the 3++. They have some nice options. There's also the possibility of paying the CP and putting them with 5 vets who can carry stormshields to tank high AP and let the five termies tank low ap, but then you have a very big footprint. Alternatively you could put them in a massively point reduced crusader in which they would fit snuggly and leave room for a character.
Bikers being 25 points is a pretty good deal if you want more mobility on the field. They can move fast and shoot pretty well with their twin boltguns.
Deathwatch for sure answer the marine problem of not doing enough damage, and with the point drops and 3++ SS they are getting there as far as survivability goes.
Bikers being 25 points is a pretty good deal if you want more mobility on the field. They can move fast and shoot pretty well with their twin boltguns.
The synergy between Biker and VanVet point cuts is significant IMO. The combination of the two gives you a harassing shooty unit that can tie units up in melee, but cant be tied up themselves without application of serious numbers (at which point they've almost certainly done their job as disruptors).
Not sure I'm sold on Termies by themselves, especially with Power Fist Intercessors/Aggressors about to be a thing. They're considerably more viable as flashlight catchers though.
Bikers being 25 points is a pretty good deal if you want more mobility on the field. They can move fast and shoot pretty well with their twin boltguns.
The synergy between Biker and VanVet point cuts is significant IMO. The combination of the two gives you a harassing shooty unit that can tie units up in melee, but cant be tied up themselves without application of serious numbers (at which point they've almost certainly done their job as disruptors).
Not sure I'm sold on Termies by themselves, especially with Power Fist Intercessors/Aggressors about to be a thing. They're considerably more viable as flashlight catchers though.
Yeah I am coming around a bit to the idea of a split squad. 5 stalker bros to sit back then 4/5 of 3/5 bikers with 1-2 vanguards with stormshield bolt pistol. You have the SS to tank AP and multiple damage stuff then the bikes to eat the lower end stuff. I think I lean towards the 3 bikes 2 van vets split so you have that backup 3++, but the bikers do a lot more actual damage than the veterans. Hrmph..
I'm personally looking at 4 SPB + SS and 1 ML vet paired with 3 bikes and 2 VanVets as my default non-Primaris team. Park the gropos in cover and let them snipe gak out all game while the zoomers crash headfirst and cause a ruckus.
With all the point drops I think we can now finally build double battalion lists without having to spam squads with almost no real upgrades.
I've had great success in every game with the following squad setups:
Plasma Squad
3x Vets w/ Plasma Gun
Sarge w/ Plasma Gun
Vanguard Vet w/ 2x Plasma Pistols
Termi w/ PS, SB 2x Vets w/ SB, SS
Shotgun Squad
4x Vets w/ Shotguns
Sarge w/ SB 2x Vets w/ SB, SS 1x Vet w/ FC
Stormbolter Squad 2x Vets w/ SB 2x Vets w/ SB, SS Blackshield w/ SB, TH Sarge w/ SB 2x Vets w/ FC 1x Termi w/ Melter, PF, SB [/spoiler]
Everyone who can also has a Chainsword.
The Plasma Squad is great at taking out vehicles, monsters or elite infantry. The Shotgun Squad is mainly there because I love the shotgun models. And they can do surprisingly well against light vehicles with the +1 to-wound stratagem and the D2 shots. And the Stormbolter Squad is just death to almost any unit.
With the point drops I also bought a Land Raider Crusader since I like the model but it was always just too expensive to actually take. Now I think the Crusader may actually be worth it, especially if its transport capacity is used to good effect.
What are your thoughts on the Land Raider variants? Are they worth it now?
Land raiders went down a beefy amount so that helps them for sure. The crusader especially can benefit from DW +1 wounds strats due it's volume of fire. Personally I play mostly primaris and deepstrike my normal marines when I do bring them, but I can see the use for a crusader to carry mixed squads closer to the enemy.
I'd love landraider to be good but I think the points drop has just made them less bad :/
Until they get a rule that stops them being useless if touched in combat they are gonna suffer, they have too much firepower to waste but need to get close to the enemy to make use of their great transport ability.
That said I'm still gonna use one but I used one before CA
I'm kind of curious to see how many normal dreads kitted for generalist work we'll see now alongside the tankbusting Vendread. With the ML/PC loadout clocking in under 100 points now it's damn tempting.
I'm gonna be running a standard dread with DCCW/stormbolter & Assault cannon (original metal model) alongside a venerable with twinlascannon and missile launcher.
Both performed well previously so look doubly good with the CA reductions
With the vet point reductions is there any point to running aggressors as a stand alone unit (they have a place in mixed primaris squads I guess)
SIA on storm bolters looks so much better vs. pretty much all targets and the 3++ and "immunity" to multi-damage weapons seems to strongly be in favor of the vets. Obsec and the ability to throw in a jump pack and the fallback+shoot makes them even stronger.
The power-fists on the aggressors is a nice bonus but I'd rather have them shooting chaff than fighting stuff that needs a power fist (and that -1 to hit really hurts in my experience).
Sterling191 wrote: I'm kind of curious to see how many normal dreads kitted for generalist work we'll see now alongside the tankbusting Vendread. With the ML/PC loadout clocking in under 100 points now it's damn tempting.
I didn't even think of that combo. 98 points for a ML and plasma cannon on a dread.... It has the firepower of two devs armed with said weapons which would be 62 points. For 36 more points you gain the statline of a dreadnought. It's not a lot of firepower though with the cannon only being d3 intead of d6. For 98 points you could get 3 hellblasters which are much more of a threat and more mobile, but squishier. Hrmph....
For 98 points you could get 3 hellblasters which are much more of a threat and more mobile, but squishier. Hrmph....
Only if they can get into rapid fire range. HPC punches at full strength out to 36". Also its only a single mortal wound, not instant death, if you hit on the "dont roll snakeyes" lottery.
Admittedly the d3 shots is a bit of an issue, but at the new price point it's basically a souped up "Deathwatch Autocannon" in all but name so I can live with a bit of variability TBH.
With the beefy point drops to dreads I am thinking of perhaps taking a little cadre of them alongside my standard force of primaris deathwatch. I wonder though do you guys think it would be better to just make them deathwatch as well or split them off as a codex chapter? My thoughts on the pros and cons are
Deathwatch:
Benefit from character buffs
Their CT is pretty good.
Do not require separate HQs.
Can play into detachments easier
Codex:
Access to -1 to hit trait or the 6+++ trait which are both pretty good on dreadnoughts. Not sure which is actually better, but I'd wager it's the -1.
Access to super cheap techmarines
Access to other relics.
Cons:
Requires separate HQs Less CP generation for a very CP hungry army.
-1 to hit Ven Dreads would be a decent pick. That said, you made mention of HQ units and we pay a premium for that. Would likely be best just to go for Deathwatch still.
5++ from a camping Captain with the Aegis, baked in Lieutenant aura, and +Wound strats make it hard sell to soup in other 'naughts for a DW list. And that's before taking into consideration the HQ tax.
Threw together a rough list of what I might try and applying the drops from battlescribe it will have dropped 246 points with some margin of error for rough estimates. That's impressive, but granted it's largely due to intercessors going down 2ppm and redemptors dropping like 41 points.
As for which dreads to take I think there might a niche for the cheaper plasma/missile dread as a budget anti-tank option when taking in number as long as we don't compare them to a leman russ tank commander and make ourselves sad. 98 points for a missile shot and plasma cannon is not amazing offensive output, but it's on a fairly reliable and cheep chassis for that firepower. Just two of them can spit out 2d3 plasma cannons and 2 missile attack which could do some work.
Redemptors have some pretty good chaff smiting ability with 18 s5 ap-1 shots and some plinking bolters which synergieses well with DW tactics and strats. Pretty alright at putting wounds on big targets in melee.
Venerable dreads I feel can be a comfortable middle ground option. 152 for a twin las and fist at ws/bs2+ give you some decent anti tank with the las and some stopping power with reliable 2+ d3 fist attacks. For 9 more points though you can get a redemptor full kitted out. Or you could go for a rifleman dread set up and do twin las and missile for 140 points. For only 20 more points over a normal dread you get a 6+++ and better WS/BS.
I suppose we have options here and can really bring what is needed. Deathwatch infantry already have some very solid anti horde with either aggressors or storm vets so I think that niche is covered. Hellblasters can be decent anti tank, but are vulnerable to negative to hit modifiers in a big way.
Have been watching mini guerrilla wargaming on YouTube and he has a lovely Deathwatch army but loses every single game. Does anyone actually take a corvus? They seem pointless to me even though I have one.
Or what if you want to play a different loadout once...
