Xenomancers wrote: I prefer a 3 man inceptor squad with plasma to hell blasters. Free deep strike is nice
Are you playing with the turn 1 Deep Strike restrictions?
They are kind of better for turn 2 anyways. Realistically they are only going to shoot once unless things are going really well for you. So waiting for the perfect target is okay for these guys I think. Think of it kind of like a really expensive sion squad.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Durability isn't the problem for Land Raiders this edition and you know it.
It absolutely is, crazy person, for that price. It's more expensive than a Knight Gallant, for 8 less wounds, like half the damage potential, and no stratagem or tactics support.
It needs to be more durable at it's price point, or cheaper. It's in an edition where plasma can harm it, ffs. They're a massive point sink and bullet magnet, but without an invuln. Just like Terminators, you're paying for legacy defensive stats in a much more lethal, offensive edition. On top of that, they've lost any semblance of being an assault vehicle. It's functionally identical to every other transport, just a bigger target and weaker for the points in every way.
I'd say you should know this, just as flippantly as you did, but I'm starting to wonder if you even play this game...
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Durability isn't the problem for Land Raiders this edition and you know it.
It absolutely is, crazy person, for that price. It's more expensive than a Knight Gallant, for 8 less wounds, like half the damage potential, and no stratagem or tactics support.
It needs to be more durable at it's price point, or cheaper. It's in an edition where plasma can harm it, ffs. They're a massive point sink and bullet magnet, but without an invuln. Just like Terminators, you're paying for legacy defensive stats in a much more lethal, offensive edition. On top of that, they've lost any semblance of being an assault vehicle. It's functionally identical to every other transport, just a bigger target and weaker for the points in every way.
I'd say you should know this, just as flippantly as you did, but I'm starting to wonder if you even play this game...
The issue is it doesn't function as an Assault transport like it should and it gets stuck by a single Termagaunt assaulting it. Durability is a wash basically.
grouchoben wrote: I have a feeling that DW are going to be a strong army post-FAQ. It's quite likely that the Castallan is going to be nerfed, and so with it IKs, who are a bit of a problem for us atm.
Orks are going to rise, and there's no better target for our SIA than greenskins (okay, Daemon Princes, but you know what I mean). We're one of the only armies that can turn hordes into red paste.
What do you think, fellow watchmasters? How far are DW from being a top-table army?
seems like a solid prediction. playtesters have said that orks are going to have a real impact and are going to be a very strong melee army - and DW best units play very well against them - you may not even need to pay CP to DS aggressors, orks HAVE to come to you and if you position aggressors wisely, they might just have to run right into a double shooting blizzard of bolter fire. Bringing enough units to screen them from getting assaulted might be important though depending on what tricks they have to get units into range turn 1 (you don't want a unit of aggressors getting surrounded), so Guardsmen allies for the bodies might be important. Not for CP farm which I assume is going to be gone shortly, but just for the units they can add to your army - which is how allies should be working. Then again, it might just be a naturally winnable match-up anyway that doesn't need it.
SHUPPET wrote: Guardsmen allies for the bodies might be important. Not for CP farm which I assume is going to be gone shortly, but just for the units they can add to your army - which is how allies should be working. Then again, it might just be a naturally winnable match-up anyway that doesn't need it.
What a fine day that would be! I totally agree, guardsmen are still an excellent ally choice for DW regardless of CP farming, bringing board control, cheap bodies and great AT.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Durability isn't the problem for Land Raiders this edition and you know it.
It absolutely is, crazy person, for that price. It's more expensive than a Knight Gallant, for 8 less wounds, like half the damage potential, and no stratagem or tactics support.
It needs to be more durable at it's price point, or cheaper. It's in an edition where plasma can harm it, ffs. They're a massive point sink and bullet magnet, but without an invuln. Just like Terminators, you're paying for legacy defensive stats in a much more lethal, offensive edition. On top of that, they've lost any semblance of being an assault vehicle. It's functionally identical to every other transport, just a bigger target and weaker for the points in every way.
I'd say you should know this, just as flippantly as you did, but I'm starting to wonder if you even play this game...
The issue is it doesn't function as an Assault transport like it should and it gets stuck by a single Termagaunt assaulting it. Durability is a wash basically.
That's but one issue. For its points, it's extremely fragile.
1 DS Leviathan
2 Xiphon
3 DS Hellblasters
4 In a pinch, 10 SB Vets firing vengeance bolts in rapid fire range, with a WM, the mission and the doctrine, will net you 13.8 damage on a Predator, or 9.2 on a 5++ Knight. You'll need to get there in one piece, and it costs 2cp, but it's worth remembering that big squads of SB vets can threaten any target with the right support.
So no real love for 2 ven dreads with lascannons sitting under the watchful eye of a Dominus Aegis watch captain (also helping reroll ones). maybe also with a small unit of vets with 2 missile launchers, stalker boltguns and a pair of stormshields (can use tempest shell strat for some mortals too). Lot of points though.
bullyboy wrote: So no real love for 2 ven dreads with lascannons sitting under the watchful eye of a Dominus Aegis watch captain (also helping reroll ones). maybe also with a small unit of vets with 2 missile launchers, stalker boltguns and a pair of stormshields (can use tempest shell strat for some mortals too). Lot of points though.
I love them but it’s hard to find a flexible load out for them, I always seem to wind up with something too anti-chaff on a field of tanks or too anti-tank on a field of chaff. It would be wonderful if I could have a Lascanon and Assaultcanon combo but such is not to be.
Weazel wrote: Is there a consensus what is the "best" or most reasonable loadout for Intercessor squads? Say, something that works well in a soup list.
I don't know about consensus. I've seen players who praise the 5 Intercessors+1Aggressor squad and the 5 Intercessors+4Hellblaster+Inceptor squads. To me the clear winner is:
5 Intercessors, SIA Auto Bolt Rifles (or SIA Bolt Rifles, see this thread for the debate)
4 Aggressors, Auto Boltstorm Guantlets, Fragstorm Grenade Launchers
1 Inceptor, 2 Assault Bolters
298 points
T5, advance and shoot, fall back and shoot, on average 54 shots @ 18" (or 92 when you stand still) and 8 powerfist attacks in combat.
Keep within range of the mandatory Watchmaster for an effective overwatch or a devastating anti-infantry output, use as a reasonable melee threat in a pinch.
Weazel wrote: Is there a consensus what is the "best" or most reasonable loadout for Intercessor squads? Say, something that works well in a soup list.
Entirely depends on the role you need them to play.
Weazel wrote: Is there a consensus what is the "best" or most reasonable loadout for Intercessor squads? Say, something that works well in a soup list.
I am currently running my Fortis Killteams in these configurations:
2 Units
5 Auto Bolt Rifle Intercessors
1 Aggressor
1 Bolter Inceptor
I tried mixing in Hellblasters but found they didn't do enough compared to just DSing a whole squad. I am considering Plasma Inceptors instead and putting them on my Advancing Teams but have not tried this yet.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
grouchoben wrote: I have a feeling that DW are going to be a strong army post-FAQ. It's quite likely that the Castallan is going to be nerfed, and so with it IKs, who are a bit of a problem for us atm.
Orks are going to rise, and there's no better target for our SIA than greenskins (okay, Daemon Princes, but you know what I mean). We're one of the only armies that can turn hordes into red paste.
What do you think, fellow watchmasters? How far are DW from being a top-table army?
In August they got 3 top 3 placements in the big tournaments as is. I think they were running either IK allies or Guard Allies in each but still. I think they will get more effective yet since the biggest weakness we have is AT, and without IK spamming everywhere that isn't highlighted as much.
Weazel wrote: Is there a consensus what is the "best" or most reasonable loadout for Intercessor squads? Say, something that works well in a soup list.
I am currently running my Fortis Killteams in these configurations:
2 Units
5 Auto Bolt Rifle Intercessors
1 Aggressor
1 Bolter Inceptor
I tried mixing in Hellblasters but found they didn't do enough compared to just DSing a whole squad. I am considering Plasma Inceptors instead and putting them on my Advancing Teams but have not tried this yet.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
grouchoben wrote: I have a feeling that DW are going to be a strong army post-FAQ. It's quite likely that the Castallan is going to be nerfed, and so with it IKs, who are a bit of a problem for us atm.
Orks are going to rise, and there's no better target for our SIA than greenskins (okay, Daemon Princes, but you know what I mean). We're one of the only armies that can turn hordes into red paste.
What do you think, fellow watchmasters? How far are DW from being a top-table army?
In August they got 3 top 3 placements in the big tournaments as is. I think they were running either IK allies or Guard Allies in each but still. I think they will get more effective yet since the biggest weakness we have is AT, and without IK spamming everywhere that isn't highlighted as much.
You can DS Hellblasters? That sounds spicy.
I was hoping I wouldn't have to invest in Aggressors, but I guess I will have to consider it. The role my Deathwatch Battalion would have is one of being mid-field/vanguard with shooty AM elements keeping in the back. Or alternatively they would be mid-field objective campers while my Space Wolves take the role of vanguard. So I guess I'm looking for something that can do some work in the middle of the board in either of these scenarios.
Buy 1 box of aggressors. They are superb in Fortis teams imo. My most common teams are:
Simple 5-man team with rifles
5-man rifles and Hellblasters, DS'ing
5-man assault bolters with a single aggressor for one of the most mobile troop options in the game (with spicy dakka)
bullyboy wrote: I'm sure this has been discussed, but after looking back a few pages didn't see it so will reiterate.
What are people doing for serious AT in their lists?
I do like the possibility that a nerf and horde Orks might change the current knight meta, but what are you guys doing right now?
Hellblaster Fortis teams are the most common go-to and for good reason. 5 30 inch plasma rifles backed by a healthy 20 wound bullet sponge that can wing a couple bolter rounds to finish off that damn target that survived on 1 wound. 270 points per team, but worth every point.
I feel like Contemptor dreads run a close second. You can teleport them within 9" of the target and get massive STR14 melee attacks with -3AP. My favorite thing is to drop them next to enemy tank foramtions and watch the panic.
If you like forgeworld models, the Xiphon interceptor is freaking evil for what it does to heavy armor.
I was hoping I wouldn't have to invest in Aggressors, but I guess I will have to consider it. The role my Deathwatch Battalion would have is one of being mid-field/vanguard with shooty AM elements keeping in the back. Or alternatively they would be mid-field objective campers while my Space Wolves take the role of vanguard. So I guess I'm looking for something that can do some work in the middle of the board in either of these scenarios.
Sounds like you'd enjoy the aggressor builds. I strongly suggest going with the auto bolt rifle in this build over the rapid fire option. This unit will benefit from the Aggressor buff by allowing you to advance and shoot without penalty, and you'll want to advance - Aggressors are slow as molasses.
I prefer using multiple 6 man teams lately, but I can't say enough good things about the big 10 man with an Inceptor added. It maximizes stratagem usage and does a lot to help get those Aggressors to a spot where they can double fire to full effect.
Question on how the mixed unit rules interact with the Riever Grapnel Launcher. Does having a Riever with that piece of gear allow an Intercessor squad to use the flanking deployment rule? Or does it only allow that when the entire unit has Grapnels?
Sterling191 wrote: Question on how the mixed unit rules interact with the Riever Grapnel Launcher. Does having a Riever with that piece of gear allow an Intercessor squad to use the flanking deployment rule? Or does it only allow that when the entire unit has Grapnels?
Grapnels are a model specific rule with no mixed unit rule reference so only that one model could skip vertical distances. Making it useless when you consider the need to be within formation of the intercessors on the ground.
Grapnels are a model specific rule with no mixed unit rule reference so only that one model could skip vertical distances. Making it useless when you consider the need to be within formation of the intercessors on the ground.
I was inquiring about the capacity to innately deep strike on the table's edge, not the capacity to ignore vertical distance. The wording on that part is unit, not model.
Grapnels are a model specific rule with no mixed unit rule reference so only that one model could skip vertical distances. Making it useless when you consider the need to be within formation of the intercessors on the ground.
I was inquiring about the capacity to innately deep strike on the table's edge, not the capacity to ignore vertical distance. The wording on that part is unit, not model.
All models must be equipped with grapnel launchers to benefit from the alternative deployment method. As a mixed unit will consist of at least 5 intercessors who cannot take them a mixed unit will not have access to this rule. For reference note the different wording on page 73 vs 77.
grouchoben wrote: 1 DS Leviathan
2 Xiphon
3 DS Hellblasters
4 In a pinch, 10 SB Vets firing vengeance bolts in rapid fire range, with a WM, the mission and the doctrine, will net you 13.8 damage on a Predator, or 9.2 on a 5++ Knight. You'll need to get there in one piece, and it costs 2cp, but it's worth remembering that big squads of SB vets can threaten any target with the right support.
I think there is a problem for the vengeance bolts firing against tough vehicles. i.e. you need to walk or jump out of the Rhino / Blackstar, and it can't rapid fire if you DS. It has only 18" range so the Rapid fire is 9", and DS you need to put the unit more than 9" away from enemy units.
grouchoben wrote: 1 DS Leviathan
2 Xiphon
3 DS Hellblasters
4 In a pinch, 10 SB Vets firing vengeance bolts in rapid fire range, with a WM, the mission and the doctrine, will net you 13.8 damage on a Predator, or 9.2 on a 5++ Knight. You'll need to get there in one piece, and it costs 2cp, but it's worth remembering that big squads of SB vets can threaten any target with the right support.
I think there is a problem for the vengeance bolts firing against tough vehicles. i.e. you need to walk or jump out of the Rhino / Blackstar, and it can't rapid fire if you DS. It has only 18" range so the Rapid fire is 9", and DS you need to put the unit more than 9" away from enemy units.
This is absolutely right - but throw them in a rhino and you're golden.
I'm a sucker for the Corvus. I know it's not optimal, but I love the thing. It also lets you get to where you need to be. Otherwise I tend to run 6-man SB squads in razorbacks.
But yeah, my exmple was optimal: mission, doctrine, watchmaster, best ammo type. The point was, if you can manage that, your anti-horde unit can also double as anti-tank. There aren't many units in the game that can say the same.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Besides, even with -1 ap instead of -2, the same setup nets you 10.4 damage on a pred, and 6.9 on the knight. Still very tasty, and much easier to achieve (DS).
Martel732 wrote: I don't use the loyal 32 exactly. I bolt on a couple of russes, couple of primaris psykers, and a repair idiot for the russes. This helps both BA and DW immensely. Sometimes you just need bodies to throw into the gears to slow X down. You dont' want those bodies to be BA, much less DW. The Russ is so much better than any marine vehicle, it's a bit nauseating.
DW are extremely effective, but amplify an already glaring weakness with marines. I've moved away from using the vets and use primaris exclusively in order to try to make up some durability.
Of of curiosity, has anyone here beat Drukhari with DW, or at least, not instantly lost in a hail of dissy cannons?
Corvus and landraiders both need price cuts badly. I guess DW can bring lascannon ven dreads.
Playing the wrong marines man - should be playing space wolves. -2 to hit flyers with stratagem - 9 d6 damage shots for less than a Repulsor. LOL. Also with a stratagem to ignore negative to hit penalties LOL.
I hate the SW and everything about them. I will never own a SW model and they are at the top of my "squat" list. If I could incinerate every SW model, I'd be temporarily happy with the game.
That’s an impossibility, you enjoy complaining more than you enjoy the game.
It's tough to fit everything in, but I've still been trying to make a way to get in lots of Deathwatch troops, the 32, and then some Scouts + something for tanks.
Speaking of Scouts, isn't anyone else annoyed they're not an option? They could've easily just given a whole squad an additional to movement or charge or something and then they could've been a FA choice or something.
I feel sorry for you. Sounds like a WAAC meta. I'm very fortunate that people in my meta play only single faction lists, no beta strike restriction, and like to have fun as much as win. Many of the things you hate have worked wonders for me. My favorite is DS vet squad with Sb/SS and frag cannons. Also like auto intercessors with 5 aggressors backed be watchmaster. These units were MVP during my last tournament. Tabled my first 3 opponents and didn't even worry about objectives.
Martel732 wrote: I don't use the loyal 32 exactly. I bolt on a couple of russes, couple of primaris psykers, and a repair idiot for the russes. This helps both BA and DW immensely. Sometimes you just need bodies to throw into the gears to slow X down. You dont' want those bodies to be BA, much less DW. The Russ is so much better than any marine vehicle, it's a bit nauseating.
DW are extremely effective, but amplify an already glaring weakness with marines. I've moved away from using the vets and use primaris exclusively in order to try to make up some durability.
Of of curiosity, has anyone here beat Drukhari with DW, or at least, not instantly lost in a hail of dissy cannons?
Corvus and landraiders both need price cuts badly. I guess DW can bring lascannon ven dreads.
Playing the wrong marines man - should be playing space wolves. -2 to hit flyers with stratagem - 9 d6 damage shots for less than a Repulsor. LOL. Also with a stratagem to ignore negative to hit penalties LOL.
I hate the SW and everything about them. I will never own a SW model and they are at the top of my "squat" list. If I could incinerate every SW model, I'd be temporarily happy with the game.
That’s an impossibility, you enjoy complaining more than you enjoy the game.
Martel732 wrote: I don't use the loyal 32 exactly. I bolt on a couple of russes, couple of primaris psykers, and a repair idiot for the russes. This helps both BA and DW immensely. Sometimes you just need bodies to throw into the gears to slow X down. You dont' want those bodies to be BA, much less DW. The Russ is so much better than any marine vehicle, it's a bit nauseating.
DW are extremely effective, but amplify an already glaring weakness with marines. I've moved away from using the vets and use primaris exclusively in order to try to make up some durability.
Of of curiosity, has anyone here beat Drukhari with DW, or at least, not instantly lost in a hail of dissy cannons?
Corvus and landraiders both need price cuts badly. I guess DW can bring lascannon ven dreads.
Playing the wrong marines man - should be playing space wolves. -2 to hit flyers with stratagem - 9 d6 damage shots for less than a Repulsor. LOL. Also with a stratagem to ignore negative to hit penalties LOL.
I hate the SW and everything about them. I will never own a SW model and they are at the top of my "squat" list. If I could incinerate every SW model, I'd be temporarily happy with the game.
That’s an impossibility, you enjoy complaining more than you enjoy the game.
No, I really hate SW that much.
About a year back you hated Tau and Eldar that much.
Martel732 wrote: I don't use the loyal 32 exactly. I bolt on a couple of russes, couple of primaris psykers, and a repair idiot for the russes. This helps both BA and DW immensely. Sometimes you just need bodies to throw into the gears to slow X down. You dont' want those bodies to be BA, much less DW. The Russ is so much better than any marine vehicle, it's a bit nauseating.
DW are extremely effective, but amplify an already glaring weakness with marines. I've moved away from using the vets and use primaris exclusively in order to try to make up some durability.
Of of curiosity, has anyone here beat Drukhari with DW, or at least, not instantly lost in a hail of dissy cannons?
Corvus and landraiders both need price cuts badly. I guess DW can bring lascannon ven dreads.
Playing the wrong marines man - should be playing space wolves. -2 to hit flyers with stratagem - 9 d6 damage shots for less than a Repulsor. LOL. Also with a stratagem to ignore negative to hit penalties LOL.
I hate the SW and everything about them. I will never own a SW model and they are at the top of my "squat" list. If I could incinerate every SW model, I'd be temporarily happy with the game.
That’s an impossibility, you enjoy complaining more than you enjoy the game.
No, I really hate SW that much.
About a year back you hated Tau and Eldar that much.
Martel732 wrote: I don't use the loyal 32 exactly. I bolt on a couple of russes, couple of primaris psykers, and a repair idiot for the russes. This helps both BA and DW immensely. Sometimes you just need bodies to throw into the gears to slow X down. You dont' want those bodies to be BA, much less DW. The Russ is so much better than any marine vehicle, it's a bit nauseating.
DW are extremely effective, but amplify an already glaring weakness with marines. I've moved away from using the vets and use primaris exclusively in order to try to make up some durability.
Of of curiosity, has anyone here beat Drukhari with DW, or at least, not instantly lost in a hail of dissy cannons?
Corvus and landraiders both need price cuts badly. I guess DW can bring lascannon ven dreads.
Playing the wrong marines man - should be playing space wolves. -2 to hit flyers with stratagem - 9 d6 damage shots for less than a Repulsor. LOL. Also with a stratagem to ignore negative to hit penalties LOL.
I hate the SW and everything about them. I will never own a SW model and they are at the top of my "squat" list. If I could incinerate every SW model, I'd be temporarily happy with the game.
That’s an impossibility, you enjoy complaining more than you enjoy the game.
No, I really hate SW that much.
About a year back you hated Tau and Eldar that much.
Weazel wrote: Is there a consensus what is the "best" or most reasonable loadout for Intercessor squads? Say, something that works well in a soup list.
I am currently running my Fortis Killteams in these configurations:
2 Units
5 Auto Bolt Rifle Intercessors
1 Aggressor
1 Bolter Inceptor
I tried mixing in Hellblasters but found they didn't do enough compared to just DSing a whole squad. I am considering Plasma Inceptors instead and putting them on my Advancing Teams but have not tried this yet.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
grouchoben wrote: I have a feeling that DW are going to be a strong army post-FAQ. It's quite likely that the Castallan is going to be nerfed, and so with it IKs, who are a bit of a problem for us atm.
Orks are going to rise, and there's no better target for our SIA than greenskins (okay, Daemon Princes, but you know what I mean). We're one of the only armies that can turn hordes into red paste.
What do you think, fellow watchmasters? How far are DW from being a top-table army?
In August they got 3 top 3 placements in the big tournaments as is. I think they were running either IK allies or Guard Allies in each but still. I think they will get more effective yet since the biggest weakness we have is AT, and without IK spamming everywhere that isn't highlighted as much.
You can DS Hellblasters? That sounds spicy.
I was hoping I wouldn't have to invest in Aggressors, but I guess I will have to consider it. The role my Deathwatch Battalion would have is one of being mid-field/vanguard with shooty AM elements keeping in the back. Or alternatively, they would be mid-field objective campers while my Space Wolves take the role of vanguard. So I guess I'm looking for something that can do some work in the middle of the board in either of these scenarios.
I highly recommend Aggressors. I bought two boxes and am considering getting a third. To give you an idea of how ridiculously powerful they can be:
My opponent the other day made a mistake. He tried to advance on a position I was holding with a Fortis Killteam of 5 Intercessors with Bolt Rifles and 5 Aggressors. He got within 18 but failed the couple charges he could make so it went to my turn. I popped +1 to wound and split fired 1 aggressor into each of his guardsmen squads and killed 5 units outright. The Intercessors did enough to bring the remaining unit down to like 3 models I think it was. Now, this isn't something that will commonly happen... and an opponent will only make a mistake like that once... but it does show how powerful they can be.
Sitting one unit with 4-5 Aggressors mid-field is a great way to scare your opponent from getting anything not armored close to the middle of the board.
In 2nd ed, SW had a functional codex while the rest of the Imperium languished. Then the fluff got progressively worse, and they continued to get obnoxious codices with no real justification. They've always been marines +3 because the writers felt like it.
This, combined with the actual SW players I've known over the years, makes them my most hated faction by a wide margin.
5 Aggressors who didn't move that round with doctrine, mission and WM bubble, can do 11 damage to a knight on their own. If you can get them to the centre of the board, they're a threat to everyone in 18" except 2+ save units. They totally rock.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Hesselhof, you've got some really great units there brother! But I really don't think 2 ven dreads and 5 Hellblasters is enough AT to take on all comers.
Automatically Appended Next Post: But hey, give it a run and see how you do.
Weazel wrote: Is there a consensus what is the "best" or most reasonable loadout for Intercessor squads? Say, something that works well in a soup list.
I am currently running my Fortis Killteams in these configurations:
2 Units
5 Auto Bolt Rifle Intercessors
1 Aggressor
1 Bolter Inceptor
I tried mixing in Hellblasters but found they didn't do enough compared to just DSing a whole squad. I am considering Plasma Inceptors instead and putting them on my Advancing Teams but have not tried this yet.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
grouchoben wrote: I have a feeling that DW are going to be a strong army post-FAQ. It's quite likely that the Castallan is going to be nerfed, and so with it IKs, who are a bit of a problem for us atm.
Orks are going to rise, and there's no better target for our SIA than greenskins (okay, Daemon Princes, but you know what I mean). We're one of the only armies that can turn hordes into red paste.
What do you think, fellow watchmasters? How far are DW from being a top-table army?
In August they got 3 top 3 placements in the big tournaments as is. I think they were running either IK allies or Guard Allies in each but still. I think they will get more effective yet since the biggest weakness we have is AT, and without IK spamming everywhere that isn't highlighted as much.
You can DS Hellblasters? That sounds spicy.
I was hoping I wouldn't have to invest in Aggressors, but I guess I will have to consider it. The role my Deathwatch Battalion would have is one of being mid-field/vanguard with shooty AM elements keeping in the back. Or alternatively, they would be mid-field objective campers while my Space Wolves take the role of vanguard. So I guess I'm looking for something that can do some work in the middle of the board in either of these scenarios.
I highly recommend Aggressors. I bought two boxes and am considering getting a third. To give you an idea of how ridiculously powerful they can be:
My opponent the other day made a mistake. He tried to advance on a position I was holding with a Fortis Killteam of 5 Intercessors with Bolt Rifles and 5 Aggressors. He got within 18 but failed the couple charges he could make so it went to my turn. I popped +1 to wound and split fired 1 aggressor into each of his guardsmen squads and killed 5 units outright. The Intercessors did enough to bring the remaining unit down to like 3 models I think it was. Now, this isn't something that will commonly happen... and an opponent will only make a mistake like that once... but it does show how powerful they can be.
Sitting one unit with 4-5 Aggressors mid-field is a great way to scare your opponent from getting anything not armored close to the middle of the board.
Yep and the thing is, they don't have to do it every game either. Aggressors are a unit that force your opponent to deal with them or else they can just outright win the game the next turn by doing crazy gak like that. This heavily changes the way your opponent has to play to avoid that happening. DW has some of the best aggressors in the game. Raven Guard ones are up there too though
Automatically Appended Next Post: Hesselhof, you've got some really great units there brother! But I really don't think 2 ven dreads and 5 Hellblasters is enough AT to take on all comers.
Automatically Appended Next Post: But hey, give it a run and see how you do.
Hey thank you, my problem is, that these are the only Lascannons i got XD, the two on the dreads and on the Razorback and i dont got the bits for the missile launcher for the dreads.
The Corvus i dont want to play
Yeah i will see how it works ^^
Do you got some tipps how i could improve the AT?
Following models i own beside the above list
Land Raider Redeemer
Corvus
6 Agressors
Vanguard Squad with 2x Pistol and shield, 2x 2 lightning claws, 1x TH & SS, 2x2 pistols
Captain with Jumppack TH & SS 9 Bikes
another psyker
Redemptor with both weapon options
Veteran squad with 3 combi melta
I'd recommend trying proxying your redemptor as a Leviathan with Storm Cannon Array & 3 hunter-killer missiles, and deepstriking him. He's probably one of the top tier units in the game, when in DW, and can deal with pretty much any target (3++ is his big weakness). If you love him (and you will) you could look at buying the weapons from FW and converting him, saving you some money. (Because, unless he gets a big buff in FAQ, the Redemptor is not a competitive unit.)
I'd run both your smashcaps, with jump packs if at all possible, as the mobility is great, pairs well with beacon angelis, and they often tip a target over its last few wounds, in my experience.
I get what you're doing with the stalker patterns, but I'd cut 2 to make the squad msu - you still get access to the mw strats, and save yourself 44pts or so. They really underperform.
I'd stick MLs on your dreads for 2 extra shots and 40 extra points. But that might be wrong, depending on how you want to play them.
I'd put another frag in that squad with the saved points. Id probably buy some extra frags from shapeways if I was running your troop-heavy list, because they do good work in my experience.
Or I'd double down on Vens and run 3. If so, I'd give a smashcap the stormshield for Dominus Aegis to give all 3 of them 5++/6+++.
Just my suggestions though, others might have better advice for you! Good luck.
I added 2 man to the stalker pattern team bause i had the 40 points left^^
I gues 3 Frag cannons are enough^^ 4 would be such an overkill and the had no space in the Razorback XD with 7 Vets
The next month i need to test some compositions
I also want to test a 5-6 man squad of DP Agressors
The 2 Smashcaptains sounds awesome, but i want to give the psyker a chance^^
BTW a libby is really important when running a Leviathan, as might of heroes bumps him up to T9, which has a huge impact on his longevity, so yeah, I definitely try and run a libby myself, if only for that.
Do i get this right that i can use the leviathan dread absolutly legal for deahtwatch, with all gems and buff bubbles in our codex, like the imperial armour adeptus astartes FAQ says?
Hesselhof wrote: Do i get this right that i can use the leviathan dread absolutly legal for deahtwatch, with all gems and buff bubbles in our codex, like the imperial armour adeptus astartes FAQ says?
BTW a libby is really important when running a Leviathan, as might of heroes bumps him up to T9, which has a huge impact on his longevity, so yeah, I definitely try and run a libby myself, if only for that.
They're not going to try and kill the Leviathan though. They just want to charge something into it so it can't shoot.
Only one Deathwatch Errata from the Big FAQ 2, which is kind of expected since Chapter Approved will probably make much more impact.
In any case, really helpful improvement on the anti T'au stratagem:
Change the rules text of this Stratagem to read:
‘Use this Stratagem after an enemy T’au Empire unit
that is equipped with one or more markerlights has
resolved all attacks in the Shooting phase. Select one
Deathwatch unit from your army and immediately
remove all markerlight counters from that unit.
grouchoben wrote: I'd recommend trying proxying your redemptor as a Leviathan with Storm Cannon Array & 3 hunter-killer missiles, and deepstriking him. He's probably one of the top tier units in the game, when in DW, and can deal with pretty much any target (3++ is his big weakness). If you love him (and you will) you could look at buying the weapons from FW and converting him, saving you some money. (Because, unless he gets a big buff in FAQ, the Redemptor is not a competitive unit.)
I'd run both your smashcaps, with jump packs if at all possible, as the mobility is great, pairs well with beacon angelis, and they often tip a target over its last few wounds, in my experience.
I get what you're doing with the stalker patterns, but I'd cut 2 to make the squad msu - you still get access to the mw strats, and save yourself 44pts or so. They really underperform.
I'd stick MLs on your dreads for 2 extra shots and 40 extra points. But that might be wrong, depending on how you want to play them.
I'd put another frag in that squad with the saved points. Id probably buy some extra frags from shapeways if I was running your troop-heavy list, because they do good work in my experience.
Or I'd double down on Vens and run 3. If so, I'd give a smashcap the stormshield for Dominus Aegis to give all 3 of them 5++/6+++.
Just my suggestions though, others might have better advice for you! Good luck.
All this ^
I am actually using a Leviathan in my next games since my buddy has one that is magnetized with all the weapons so I can borrow it and try them out. I know that overall the Storm Cannons are the best... what is your experience with the Melta though if you are looking specifically and only for AT duties? AT is my weakness right now too since I have a lot of Leman Russes, Baneblades, and IK's in my local meta. I have the Hellblasters, but otherwise, I am pretty lacking overall. Looking at Leviathan, a Knight of my own (waiting to see how badly they are nerfed though), or allies which I in general don't like doing.
Melta is amazing too, absolutely - its key advantage imo is it's powerful enough to run as a single weapon, opening up a fist for your leviathan. He becomes even more of a priority target though, and gains a weakness to hordes (he can't manage range as well, and can't shred 15 models in an emergency if he has to, with his SCA). His price bumps up about 50pts too. You could go double lance, I've never tried it myself – 4d3 AT shots at 18" could work in a knight meta actually. Another small problem is you don't get to pick a damage dice at DS range. Let us know how it worked out for you!
Today is the day^^ i will order my leviathan with 2x storm cannon + imperial armour,. I guess stormcannon is the best, grav flux is to random with d3 shoots
20 shoots with doctrine will hurt an knight, i guess
Good man! Yeah, it hurts a knight, but much more important, it hurts everything. Great against MEQ, TEQ, armour, heavies, invuln saves, even GEQ if you really need some dead. Knight with 3++ is actually one of its worst match ups, but it still does good work even there.
So let's try and get some talking about the FAQ. Few key things for me personally were:
1. The clarification for the anti-Tau Stratagem was pretty cool.
2. For those of us with camping Stalker Vets and footslogging Fortis teams, the cover Stratagem is expensive BUT super valuable.
3. We will definitely be dealing with less Slamguinus flying around, making any Infantry we were bringing much better at helping screen our dudes.
4. Still no reason to use Dragonfire rounds once more.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: So let's try and get some talking about the FAQ. Few key things for me personally were:
1. The clarification for the anti-Tau Stratagem was pretty cool.
2. For those of us with camping Stalker Vets and footslogging Fortis teams, the cover Stratagem is expensive BUT super valuable.
3. We will definitely be dealing with less Slamguinus flying around, making any Infantry we were bringing much better at helping screen our dudes.
4. Still no reason to use Dragonfire rounds once more.
Pretty much sums it up. All infantry are better at bubble wrap and screening for characters now. Small thing, but teleportarium use just to protect the Dreads from alpha, but still use them turn 1 (an uncommon strategy) is gone.
All in all, mostly the same. Our own version of smash caps aren't as efficient now, but they couldn't really hold a candle to the insanity of the slamfether, supreme Lord of slamming anyway.
I still will use my 2 hammer captains one with hammer + shield and one with hammer and stormbolter with bane bolts, it´s still a close combat monster^^
With the reduction of the CP farm (still not horrible though), will people look at other warlord traits other than Lore of Hidden Knowledge? The above TH/SS Captain with Castellan of the Black Vault seems pretty tasty making that TH Damage 4. Man do I wish our characters could take Heavy Thunder Hammers, even a Blackshirt would be cool. Shame they are restricted to 2 attack models only.
Still hard to lose Hidden Knowledge though as I like the additional reroll (plus strategem) in case I roll low for storm shield saves on a kill team. Nice to be able to reroll twice in a turn.
bullyboy wrote: With the reduction of the CP farm (still not horrible though), will people look at other warlord traits other than Lore of Hidden Knowledge? The above TH/SS Captain with Castellan of the Black Vault seems pretty tasty making that TH Damage 4. Man do I wish our characters could take Heavy Thunder Hammers, even a Blackshirt would be cool. Shame they are restricted to 2 attack models only.
Still hard to lose Hidden Knowledge though as I like the additional reroll (plus strategem) in case I roll low for storm shield saves on a kill team. Nice to be able to reroll twice in a turn.
I use castellan of the black vault exclusively with my watch master. Nice that it effects the shooting and cc profile of his weapon and I give him the time so he boosts my units towards to types of enemy at any given time. I still haven't seen anywhere where dedicated troop transports have been clarified for which of our tactics effects them. Seems like an unfair loophole that goes against our army design. Why can I get to reroll against some big bad tank but not a rhino or raider?
Hesselhof wrote:I still will use my 2 hammer captains one with hammer + shield and one with hammer and stormbolter with bane bolts, it´s still a close combat monster^^
No dispute there. He's just a bit less flexible tactically for taking on the bigger things since screens can bog him down. Have to punch through that screen first, which admittedly DW is pretty bloody good at. He's still as strong as ever once you get him where he needs to be, but now that's just a tad bit harder to do.
bullyboy wrote:With the reduction of the CP farm (still not horrible though), will people look at other warlord traits other than Lore of Hidden Knowledge? The above TH/SS Captain with Castellan of the Black Vault seems pretty tasty making that TH Damage 4. Man do I wish our characters could take Heavy Thunder Hammers, even a Blackshirt would be cool. Shame they are restricted to 2 attack models only.
Still hard to lose Hidden Knowledge though as I like the additional reroll (plus strategem) in case I roll low for storm shield saves on a kill team. Nice to be able to reroll twice in a turn.
Absolutely agreed here. I think it makes Lord of Hidden Knowledge a bit less powerful compared to the others, which means it's a tough choice on what to pick up. Not sure you're using that reroll properly, though. Can only use it on the warlord.
I use castellan of the black vault exclusively with my watch master. Nice that it effects the shooting and cc profile of his weapon and I give him the time so he boosts my units towards to types of enemy at any given time. I still haven't seen anywhere where dedicated troop transports have been clarified for which of our tactics effects them. Seems like an unfair loophole that goes against our army design. Why can I get to reroll against some big bad tank but not a rhino or raider?
Always felt like an oversight, and I'm surprised it hasn't been clarified in the FAQ...
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: So let's try and get some talking about the FAQ. Few key things for me personally were:
1. The clarification for the anti-Tau Stratagem was pretty cool.
2. For those of us with camping Stalker Vets and footslogging Fortis teams, the cover Stratagem is expensive BUT super valuable.
3. We will definitely be dealing with less Slamguinus flying around, making any Infantry we were bringing much better at helping screen our dudes.
4. Still no reason to use Dragonfire rounds once more.
Pretty much sums it up. All infantry are better at bubble wrap and screening for characters now. Small thing, but teleportarium use just to protect the Dreads from alpha, but still use them turn 1 (an uncommon strategy) is gone.
All in all, mostly the same. Our own version of smash caps aren't as efficient now, but they couldn't really hold a candle to the insanity of the slamfether, supreme Lord of slamming anyway.
Honestly our version never made me impressed anyway, so I think we will see them switched out for footslogging for the pure rerolls or with the Jump Pack just to give rerolls to anything that will Deep Strike.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
bullyboy wrote: With the reduction of the CP farm (still not horrible though), will people look at other warlord traits other than Lore of Hidden Knowledge? The above TH/SS Captain with Castellan of the Black Vault seems pretty tasty making that TH Damage 4. Man do I wish our characters could take Heavy Thunder Hammers, even a Blackshirt would be cool. Shame they are restricted to 2 attack models only.
Still hard to lose Hidden Knowledge though as I like the additional reroll (plus strategem) in case I roll low for storm shield saves on a kill team. Nice to be able to reroll twice in a turn.
I think we can start considering using The Watch Eternal (for those of us using Fortis teams) and Nowhere to Hide (ignoring cover once per turn is okay I guess?)
Hesselhof wrote:I still will use my 2 hammer captains one with hammer + shield and one with hammer and stormbolter with bane bolts, it´s still a close combat monster^^
No dispute there. He's just a bit less flexible tactically for taking on the bigger things since screens can bog him down. Have to punch through that screen first, which admittedly DW is pretty bloody good at. He's still as strong as ever once you get him where he needs to be, but now that's just a tad bit harder to do.
bullyboy wrote:With the reduction of the CP farm (still not horrible though), will people look at other warlord traits other than Lore of Hidden Knowledge? The above TH/SS Captain with Castellan of the Black Vault seems pretty tasty making that TH Damage 4. Man do I wish our characters could take Heavy Thunder Hammers, even a Blackshirt would be cool. Shame they are restricted to 2 attack models only.
Still hard to lose Hidden Knowledge though as I like the additional reroll (plus strategem) in case I roll low for storm shield saves on a kill team. Nice to be able to reroll twice in a turn.
Absolutely agreed here. I think it makes Lord of Hidden Knowledge a bit less powerful compared to the others, which means it's a tough choice on what to pick up. Not sure you're using that reroll properly, though. Can only use it on the warlord.
I think the only requirement is for the warlord to be on the table, the reroll does not specify for him.
Yeah the free re-roll works for anyone in the army. It is not specific to the warlord in any way.
As for warlord traits I still think the lord of hidden knowledge will be the go to pick. Getting that extra re-roll can be clutch and getting as many CPs as possible is extremely useful for a DW army.
My feelings on the warlods goes as follows
Bane of Monstrosities: It's ok. Your warlord is someone you don't necessarily want in combat so having them fighting a monster of vehicle can be pretty dangerous. However on a watch master this does make him a very, very scary prospect against vehicles especially. He has his the special ammo strat, a clavis, the relic clavis and the clavis strat to really put a hurting on anything. Kinda niche.
Lord of Hidden Knowledge: I still think it's the go to for the reasons I outlined above. It's reliably going to give you just a few more command points plus having the ability to double re-roll (Once from the warlord and once from the strat) can be a massive deal.
Castellan of the Black Vault: Power fist with auxiliary melta gun or watch master bolter cane really benefit from this. The Watch Master really will see this pay off when he is shooting D3 bolter shots and doing d3+1 in melee. It's a fun one and something I'd like to try, but I don't think it's going to be the pick.
The Watch Eternal: You ignore the LAST wound lost on a 6+.... MEH. If this was a per wound aura I think it would be a legit pick doubly so for Primaris heavy builds. Due to it only working on the last wound lost I think it's a pass.
Vigilance Incarnate: YOu can change your mission tactic once per game with this warlord trait or spend one CP if your warlord is a watch master (which it probably will be). Yeah this is a hard pass. Why would you ever take this over the lord of hidden knowledge? Might as well not even be in the book.
Nowhere to Hide: It's a situational pick. You can pick one unit and ignore it's cover. With the new stratagem to gain cover turn 1 if going second I could see this being used or to counter cover stacking units. It's pretty situational, but not worthless.
Overall I lord of hidden knowledge still seems to be the best pick. It has some clutch capabilities and every single command point is precious in DW. Watch eternal would have been a viable pick if it worked for every wound lost.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Honestly our version never made me impressed anyway, so I think we will see them switched out for footslogging for the pure rerolls or with the Jump Pack just to give rerolls to anything that will Deep Strike.
His worth in a Deathwatch army is definitely inflated due in large part to the lack of reliable, cost effective anti-tank options.
bullyboy wrote:
I think the only requirement is for the warlord to be on the table, the reroll does not specify for him.
Tibs Ironblood wrote:Yeah the free re-roll works for anyone in the army. It is not specific to the warlord in any way.
My apologies, I was referencing it from memory and a wiki (codex isn't nearby) and messed it up. Sorry!
Tibs Ironblood wrote:Bane of Monstrosities: It's ok. Your warlord is someone you don't necessarily want in combat so having them fighting a monster of vehicle can be pretty dangerous. However on a watch master this does make him a very, very scary prospect against vehicles especially. He has his the special ammo strat, a clavis, the relic clavis and the clavis strat to really put a hurting on anything. Kinda niche.
Definitely a Watch Master heavy trait as you outlined. Encourages a certain playstyle for your Watch Master and can pay dividends really early. I often feel like Lord of Hidden Knowledge encourages passively playing your Watch Master to maximize CP regen over the entire game, which kind of wastes his potential. This is like..the exact opposite of that passive playstyle and is probably a lot riskier than folks like.
Which is why I absolutely enjoy it. Go big or go home, says my Watch Master.
Tibs Ironblood wrote:Lord of Hidden Knowledge: I still think it's the go to for the reasons I outlined above. It's reliably going to give you just a few more command points plus having the ability to double re-roll (Once from the warlord and once from the strat) can be a massive deal.
The chance at CP is definitely nice, but I think it's not as clear cut a winner as before. I may be misremembering (like last time lol), but I was also under the impression that a dice result could only ever be re-rolled once. Am I mistaken here?
Tibs Ironblood wrote:Castellan of the Black Vault: Power fist with auxiliary melta gun or watch master bolter cane really benefit from this. The Watch Master really will see this pay off when he is shooting D3 bolter shots and doing d3+1 in melee. It's a fun one and something I'd like to try, but I don't think it's going to be the pick.
Not entirely certain the powerfist/meltagun would benefit from this - but I'm not sure. They're two different weapons with independent profiles, no? Whereas the Watch Master weapon or combi-weapons are single weapons with multiple profiles. I'd probably just use it on the combi-melta profile for that guy anyway, personally.
It is definitely a ton of fun for the WM, though. I absolutely love this one. Can't go wrong with this one - more damage is never situational, and unlike Bane of Monstrosities, it pays dividends early and doesn't require you to be super risky.
Tibs Ironblood wrote:The Watch Eternal: You ignore the LAST wound lost on a 6+.... MEH. If this was a per wound aura I think it would be a legit pick doubly so for Primaris heavy builds. Due to it only working on the last wound lost I think it's a pass.
Absolute pass. My experience with it is that it saved a single marine. The range is too small and the effect too little to make an impact. Disappointing one overall.
Tibs Ironblood wrote:Vigilance Incarnate: YOu can change your mission tactic once per game with this warlord trait or spend one CP if your warlord is a watch master (which it probably will be). Yeah this is a hard pass. Why would you ever take this over the lord of hidden knowledge? Might as well not even be in the book.
Well, think of it this way, can the Lord of Hidden Knowledge reroll be considered basically a free CP since it's basically a free command re-roll? I think it can.
Which means this is a free CP under similar, though more limited circumstances. This also works for those builds that focus on the Watch Master being a monster/vehicle hunter with Clavis, Tempest, and the Key but placing the Warlord trait on a different model to avoid giving up those points. Niche, definitely, but I wouldn't say it's an absolute hard pass. Different style, and probably riskier.
Tibs Ironblood wrote:Nowhere to Hide: It's a situational pick. You can pick one unit and ignore it's cover. With the new stratagem to gain cover turn 1 if going second I could see this being used or to counter cover stacking units. It's pretty situational, but not worthless.
Agreed here.
All in all, there appears to be a lot of really decent ones now, though Lord of Hidden Knowledge will of course be the preferred one on the competitive side of things and is the best for risk averse Watch Masters. It's also clearly the most flexible - it's easiest to make an impact with no matter what is happening, which means it's one less thing you need to manage.
But I wouldn't sleep on Bane of Monstrosities, Castellan, or even Vigilance Incarnate for a mostly different approach to your Warlord's role in the army.
Actually it's not a bad thing The Watch Eternal ignores just the last wound. Primaris are gonna be hit by multi-damage weapons.
That said I just realized it probably only affects models in the aura rather than units so...
For fun I'll probably do a Captain with a Storm Bolter and the Combi-Fist-Melta. Choose the Banebolts and then the Castellen for the fist. Makes him mildly dangerous in shooting I guess.
For fun I'll probably do a Captain with a Storm Bolter and the Combi-Fist-Melta. Choose the Banebolts and then the Castellen for the fist. Makes him mildly dangerous in shooting I guess.
That's actually a really nice Terminator Watch Captain.
4 shots with the SB using SIA and having 2 damage plus possible Mortal wounds, and then the meltagun doing D6+1 damage, and the fist doing D3+1 damage. I do have the fist/melta in my box as I felt it too expensive for regular terms. Nice.
For fun I'll probably do a Captain with a Storm Bolter and the Combi-Fist-Melta. Choose the Banebolts and then the Castellen for the fist. Makes him mildly dangerous in shooting I guess.
That's actually a really nice Terminator Watch Captain.
4 shots with the SB using SIA and having 2 damage plus possible Mortal wounds, and then the meltagun doing D6+1 damage, and the fist doing D3+1 damage. I do have the fist/melta in my box as I felt it too expensive for regular terms. Nice.
I'm probably gonna just use a Combi-Weapon and a Fist as my stand-in. None of the Bolters in my Deathwatch lists are actually Bolters so it'll be consistent.
Speaking of Bolters, let's talk Shotguns. How much of a price cut do you think they would need to be viable?
Aggressor Squad [12 PL, 185pts]
. Aggressor
. . Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Grenade Launcher: Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets, Fragstorm Grenade Launchers
. Aggressor
. . Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Grenade Launcher: Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets, Fragstorm Grenade Launchers
. Aggressor
. . Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Grenade Launcher: Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets, Fragstorm Grenade Launchers
. Aggressor
. . Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Grenade Launcher: Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets, Fragstorm Grenade Launchers
. Aggressor Sergeant
. . Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Grenade Launcher: Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets, Fragstorm Grenade Launchers
++ Total: [121 PL, 1998pts] ++
For the next time i will put the aggressors into a intercessor squad and will split them and DS only the aggressor for the objectiv secure, i simply forgot this for now ^^ and i cant change this for now because i send this list to my opponet XD
The libby and hammer captain will DS in Round 2, SB Vet squad and Levi too. Depending on what mission and deployment zone either the Hellblaster or Aggressor are going to DS.
You can only split your squad of Intercessors & Agressors during the deployment or at the begining of your turn with the stratagem (Tactical flexibility). You can't split your squad when deep striking (at the end of the movement phase).
I have never been interested in the trait before but now looking at it post FAQ there may be a little usefulness in The watch Eternal as some suggested. It would be a castle type list however.
Watch captain with Dominus Aegis and Watch eternal trait. He would then confer a 5++ and a kind of 6+ fnp to models nearby. It seems stalker vets and regular bolt rifle intercessors would be good for this. I'd place as much in cover as possible and maybe use the new cover strat if I go second. I'd even place the repulsor and a redemptor nearby to benefit from the invul bubble. I will probably try it since I regularly play against dark lance weilding DE and Harlequins that I couldn't hope to outmaneuver.
The aggressors and watch master will advance and shoot whatever with the frag cannons DS where needed. The rest will castle up and shoot everything possible. Repulsor may be a good candidate for using the shoot a flying aeldari a unit strat coupled with the Icarus weapons and appropriate +1 wound strat.
For fun I'll probably do a Captain with a Storm Bolter and the Combi-Fist-Melta. Choose the Banebolts and then the Castellen for the fist. Makes him mildly dangerous in shooting I guess.
That's actually a really nice Terminator Watch Captain.
4 shots with the SB using SIA and having 2 damage plus possible Mortal wounds, and then the meltagun doing D6+1 damage, and the fist doing D3+1 damage. I do have the fist/melta in my box as I felt it too expensive for regular terms. Nice.
I'm probably gonna just use a Combi-Weapon and a Fist as my stand-in. None of the Bolters in my Deathwatch lists are actually Bolters so it'll be consistent.
Speaking of Bolters, let's talk Shotguns. How much of a price cut do you think they would need to be viable?
Built my term Capt this morning with SB and PF/meltagun
As for shotguns, I usually take 1 in a sqd now just because, but no idea why they think they're worth 3 pts. 1 or 2pts would be fine IMHO.
grouchoben wrote: Aegis dominatus isnt worth it anymore. It's mainly for losing initiative, and the strat is just plain better now. I used it a lot for my assbacks.
I think you can still make a case for it, but it definitely lost value as a T1 defense for guys on the ground.
That makes me think on the matter that we don't really have any relics that are "must take" now.
grouchoben wrote: Aegis dominatus isnt worth it anymore. It's mainly for losing initiative, and the strat is just plain better now. I used it a lot for my assbacks.
I think you can still make a case for it, but it definitely lost value as a T1 defense for guys on the ground.
That makes me think on the matter that we don't really have any relics that are "must take" now.
The tome of ectoclades is an auto take. It adds so much versatility in it's aura.
@Lemondish - To double re-roll I am talking about is being able to re-roll two seperate single dice twice. Like say two wounds get through on your watch master each doing 3 damage. You fail both 4+ invulns. Normally you command point one and still fail. Normally you would be dead because you can't use that stratagem twice, but you could use your once a game warlord trait re-roll to re-roll the other save to try and keep your guy alive.
The warlord to swap for free really is just plain bad and useless. There is no logical reason you would ever take it over lord of hidden knowledge. At most it saves you 2 CPs (that is it's cap if a watch master is not your warlord and only saves you one CP if he is) where as the lord trait will automatically give you one re-roll and fairly reliably give you back one CP each battle round. It's quite possibly the worst warlord trait I can think of.
Agreed - I used to take the Aegis plus either tome or beacon. Now it's a lot more straight forward - I take em both!
I agree that aegis is still viable on some builds Slayer, but it's just that its main boon is done much better now by the strat. I guess a backfield castle with a cap babysitter could still be a good place for it?
So I looked at how many vets I have spare to build....roughly 11, but could add a few more with other marine bodies. So what to build?
I still have 2 frag cannons on sprue, plenty of HTHs, 8 stormbolters, 4 stormshields, shotguns galore, HBs, Infernus HBs, etc.
Depends what you already have. Personally, if they were my only 11, I'd build 5-6 with SB & Chainsword, 2 with frags, 2-3 with SB & SS, and a blackshield with your fave CC weapon - SB & thunderhammer is sweet, if a bit expensive.
You could go for a second vet with a SB & CC as a sarg who, with your blackshield, would give you 6 decent swings in one squad. (I lean towards SB & poweraxe on these two.) With the CC stuff it's such a good idea to magnetise tho, as the 'best' loadout there varies so much according to you list, your points, and the current iteration of costs.
Sorry to say, leave the shotties on the sprue. Wish they were worth taking.
Finally, if you don't already have one or two, I'd slap a jump pack on one for a vangaurd vet, to let your guys retreat and fire.
I have quite a few jump pack dudes, some SS/PM, some lightning claw, one HTH, plus just plain old bp/cs
I have 2 shotgun troopers right now so don;t think I'll add anymore.
I really want to have a crack with HTHs (pun very much intended), but just not sure what is the right number and best delivery. I can't imagine more than 3 in a sqd, that's 90pts! maybe I should just stick them all in my van vets with a couple of SS dudes to soak incoming fire.
Make a couple of Blackshields and then the rest SBs (which I didn't knew I had, just found them)
And I'm sure there's fear of a storm bolter increase. Sternguard are the only other power armour unit I can think of that can get them, but their baseline bolters are better.
3 points to double your offensive output with SIA seems too good to be true - let's hope it lasts (even though I greatly dislike storm bolters)
And I'm sure there's fear of a storm bolter increase. Sternguard are the only other power armour unit I can think of that can get them, but their baseline bolters are better.
3 points to double your offensive output with SIA seems too good to be true - let's hope it lasts (even though I greatly dislike storm bolters)
They're already 4 frickin points. Anymore than that and it would be totally unfair.
bullyboy wrote: I have quite a few jump pack dudes, some SS/PM, some lightning claw, one HTH, plus just plain old bp/cs
I have 2 shotgun troopers right now so don;t think I'll add anymore.
I really want to have a crack with HTHs (pun very much intended), but just not sure what is the right number and best delivery. I can't imagine more than 3 in a sqd, that's 90pts! maybe I should just stick them all in my van vets with a couple of SS dudes to soak incoming fire.
Make a couple of Blackshields and then the rest SBs (which I didn't knew I had, just found them)
If you don't have any yet, I'd make them all up as SBs, some with SS, most with CS, and then one or two with a CC weapon that you dig.
And I'm sure there's fear of a storm bolter increase. Sternguard are the only other power armour unit I can think of that can get them, but their baseline bolters are better.
3 points to double your offensive output with SIA seems too good to be true - let's hope it lasts (even though I greatly dislike storm bolters)
They're already 4 frickin points. Anymore than that and it would be totally unfair.
The SB and CS loadout, which isn't even in the kit, is a point cheaper than the iconic boltgun and power sword combo. Sadly, that combo, despite making up a majority of the kit, is worse against almost every target than SB/CS. It's maddeningly annoying, personally. But the mere fact that you can make a single model fully twice as effective with 3 points might be seen as troublesome. Perhaps maybe not?
I have a dream that the iconic Deathwatch kits and wargear from the Corvus and Land Raider all the way down to the Heavy Thunder Hammer and boltgun/power sword combo will not just be viable options in the future, but decently competitive with other options for the cost.
I'm beginning to expand out from my Kill Team Deathwatch force to a full army. The plan is to go Primaris heavy, with four full Fortis teams (two Hellblaster, two Plasma Inceptor + Aggressor) as the front line. But i've got just enough points left over for an MSU Veteran battalion to beef up the CP reserves.
I largely intend for them to be camping back/midfield objectives and lobbing shots downrange, so initially leaned towards Stalkers, but the temptation for what Storms can do close in is incredibly tempting, and with Kraken they still have a 30 inch "long range" profile.
I run 1-3 units of Veterans depending on my army (1 battalion or 2). I always do a 10 man unit of SB/CS for deep striking. Then if I am running the other 2 units I take them 5 man with Stalkers, and fill in with any heavy weapons I am bringing. They are used for camping objectives and usually ignored because of the Fortis teams and the deep striking vets. So far they have given me great results, as even when my 1k Sons opponent targeted them it put one of his units so far out of position that it was the only unit he had left at the end of the game.
On Warlord Traits, I take only Hidden Knowledge if I am running a single Battalion, and usually take Castellan if I am running two. The others seem too lackluster for what they give.
Relic is always Tome of Ectoclades, and sometimes I take a second and bring in the Bane Bolts or Beacon.
I have a game coming up this Saturday and will be trying either a Leviathan with Melta or the Harpoon Knight to back up my boys. I'll let you guys know how it went.
So I will be playing a friend tomorrow at 1500 points with my deathwatch. He will be bringing Eldar and I know lately he's been favoring the use of lots of banshees . So without knowing what he's bringing for his entire list I can only speculate he will use the Alaitoc trait . With the speed of the banshees and their special ability preventing me from using overwatch on them and with the trait for -1 to hit at 12" army wide. The chances of him locking down my kill teams is great. So my chances of killing a lot in overwtatch with my frag cannons and aggressors is Null and void. I can't say for sure this will be his tactic but if I were him it would be mine. Has anyone else played a list with an element like this and if so how did you handle it.
Screens and/or team composition that allows for falling back and shooting. Banshees are squishy as all hell (S3 and T3 doesnt do them any favors). Dont plan on mowing them down on the charge, plan for them to make the charge, then get exposed in your following movement phase and shot to pieces. A single Frag Cannon has a nonzero chance of wiping out an entire Banshee team if it gets a volley off.
Just watch your positioning such that they cant consolidate into your backline.
It's important to actually not let them get the charge off. What'll be the average charge distance for Banshees? I know Scorpions will usually get their charges off much easier due to deployment shenanigans.
It's long. IIRC, they add 3" to charge and advance rolls and ignore the -2" for charging through terrain. Plus one of their armywide traits (not Alaitoc, ofc) allows them to charge after advancing.
SkrawnyNob wrote: It's long. IIRC, they add 3" to charge and advance rolls and ignore the -2" for charging through terrain. Plus one of their armywide traits (not Alaitoc, ofc) allows them to charge after advancing.
That part is innate, its the Acrobatic ability. The Saim-Hann Craftworld trait would allow them to reroll the charge, but its not commonly used.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: It's important to actually not let them get the charge off. What'll be the average charge distance for Banshees? I know Scorpions will usually get their charges off much easier due to deployment shenanigans.
On the contrary, Scorpions are still constrained by the 9" deployment rule for their deep strike. Banshees can move and advance, quicken, then super-charge for a huge threat range. 8+8+1d6+1d6+3+2d6 inches. Obviously they're not likely to go the full 43 inches, but its just an illustration for how much ground they can cover. Oh and they can do it while jumping out of that Wave Serpent that parked 18" from your line.
Alaitoc is the -1 to hit past 12 inches. Saim Hann is rerolling charges, and Bike units can use Heavy Weapons after moving at no penalty (but still cant advance with them).
I expect to see changes to most deep strike units with CA2018 in light of FAQ#2.
Agreed with above, don't try to not get charged, let him charge the banshees into a unit with a few stormshields. If you have Lore of Hidden Knowledge as WT you can reroll 2 failed 3+ invulns to help keep the rest of the sqd alive. Then fall back (you have a vanvet in there I hope) and unload with a pair of frag cannons.
As an aside note, I was doing a test game vs Aeldari the other day and my 2 Frag Cannons got a total of 5 shots off the first time they fired! Yes, 3 ones and a two were rolled. That was awful.
Fly boy fly!
The FAQ nerfed charging with fly so you might as well take a Jump Pack to fly out of combat and purge those beastly xenos with your holy Bolter.
Thoughts on a deep striking Van Vet unit with 3 TH/SS and 2 HTH at 213pts? Malleus Tactic in play, Malleus Doctrine strategem and Honour Your Brothers for dealing with knight. Probably needs a Librarian to get Veil of Time off to help out with failed charges. Could benefit from a Captain with jp to reroll ones, but a little short on points and is another model that needs to make 9" charge.
As a side note, what are others plans for dealing with a 3++ knight?
I'm not sure, but I too want to work more THs into my list. Your 5-man seems ever so glassy, and I really dislike HTHs, but they could do work.
What do you think of this as a basic 5-man vet squad instead? It has 5 less swings in it, but takes a troop slot, is much tankier with 3 SSs, gets 20 SB shots, and is 69pts cheaper:
Sarg w/THSB Blackshield w/THSB 3 Vets w/SS & SB
Might be comparing apples and oranges, but a couple of these squads bring some of the same anti-knight threat we're looking for. And yeah, agreed, dealing with a 3++ Knight is a pain in the ass.
So I played a game against my buddies eldar yesterday at 1500pts. Dawn of war deployment big guns never tire. If the game had ended on turn 5 I would have won . But we rolled each time causing the game to go into overtime to turn 7! I took the below list.
Primaris Watch Captain [6 PL, 98pts]: Power sword, Tome of the Ectoclades
. Master-crafted auto bolt rifle & bolt pistol: Bolt Pistol, Master-crafted auto bolt rifle
Watch Master [7 PL, 130pts]: Castellan of the Black Vault, Osseus Key, Warlord
+ Troops +
Intercessors [16 PL, 298pts] . Aggressor . . Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Grenade Launcher: Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets, Fragstorm Grenade Launchers
. Aggressor . . Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Grenade Launcher: Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets, Fragstorm Grenade Launchers
. Aggressor . . Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Grenade Launcher: Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets, Fragstorm Grenade Launchers
. Aggressor . . Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Grenade Launcher: Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets, Fragstorm Grenade Launchers
. Inceptor . . Two Assault Bolters: 2x Assault bolter
. Intercessor: Auto Bolt Rifle, Bolt Pistol
. Intercessor: Auto Bolt Rifle, Bolt Pistol
. Intercessor: Auto Bolt Rifle, Bolt Pistol
. Intercessor: Auto Bolt Rifle, Bolt Pistol
. Intercessor Sergeant: Auto Bolt Rifle, Bolt Pistol, Chainsword
He brought 3 wave serpents full or banshees and Jain zar, 2 Night spinner, 3 squads of rangers, and two warlocks. The banshees are crazy fast and immune to overwatch and Jain Zar is a pain in the ass. If she gets in cc she can disarm your model which she used on my watch master. It took her 4 turns however to kill the killteam with aggressors. In the end I had my corvus left with 12 wounds remaining and he had two wounded wave serpents and 1 night spinner. He couldn't really hurt my corvus but it didn't kill much other than the rangers, a few banshees and the warlocks.
What did I learn?
The banshees are fragile as expected. They don't hurt our marines that well and primaris basically laugh, especially T5 ones, laugh at them.
I found my units just as effective in cc against them as they were in shooting. Maybe take more chainswords/sb next time with a bike and van vet to harass units like the banshees and max out my ability to shoot them and still get all the chain sword attacks in.
The frag cannons took on two squads that charged them. That damn ignore overwatch though!
I think I could have done things better and maybe have brought more heavy weapons to deal with the vehicles. Although I didn't know what he was going to bring. Plasma inceptors would probably been good for some free deepstrike. I also would have put the watch master in the corvus with the frag cannons since he was kitted to kill vehicles this time around.
I have been thinking about VV for some TH and HTH... but more and more I am considering like grouchoben. Use regular Vets to get the second battalion and deploy them either in a vehicle or Deep Strike Stratagem. The new FAQ has slightly changed how I usually play so I am considering some transports now rather than straight up deepstriking my heaviest hitters.
bullyboy wrote: All I can say is bravo to the Eldar player for bringing a nice fluffy non-optimized list. Sounded like a fun matchup.
Yeah we have been friends for 14 yrs and just gear up for fun on my home table. We actually played an 800pt game right afterward but I took my Wolves instead and I won that one
Captain Garius wrote: I have been thinking about VV for some TH and HTH... but more and more I am considering like grouchoben. Use regular Vets to get the second battalion and deploy them either in a vehicle or Deep Strike Stratagem. The new FAQ has slightly changed how I usually play so I am considering some transports now rather than straight up deepstriking my heaviest hitters.
Only paying +2pts for jump packs, so is a way to cut back on CP use but does inhibit any firing platforms and a black shield thunderhammers. Has more maneuverability though.
Yeah, it's tricky. Blackshield and sarg give you 6 swings: a 5man VV all kitted gives you 11. But the cost is higher and they have no firepower, and being able to combo SB & TH on the same model is everso nice... i dont think we have a worthwhile pure-cc unit in our roster, so mixed threat seems the way to go. SBs threaten most things, and THs thteaten what they don't, so it gives you a nice tac unit, albeit at a harsh price.
When it comes to melee I really don't think DW have what it takes to function in that role. They don't have any scary melee units in either their mobility, durability or killing power. If you want melee in codex DW jumpack captains might be your only real choice even after the fly nerf.
Captain Garius wrote: I have been thinking about VV for some TH and HTH... but more and more I am considering like grouchoben. Use regular Vets to get the second battalion and deploy them either in a vehicle or Deep Strike Stratagem. The new FAQ has slightly changed how I usually play so I am considering some transports now rather than straight up deepstriking my heaviest hitters.
I'm also considering working in some transports now. Previously, I was deep striking small squads with Storm bolters, shields and frag cannons. Now, I'm planning on running 3 razorbacks each with 2 Stormbolter/Chainsword, 2 Stormbolter/Shield, and 2 frag Cannon. With the deep strike changes, I wouldn't be able to get my frag cannons into range until Turn 3. Although it's more expensive, the razorbacks would arguably give more freedom to the vets than deepstriking.
bullyboy wrote: Thoughts on a deep striking Van Vet unit with 3 TH/SS and 2 HTH at 213pts? Malleus Tactic in play, Malleus Doctrine strategem and Honour Your Brothers for dealing with knight. Probably needs a Librarian to get Veil of Time off to help out with failed charges. Could benefit from a Captain with jp to reroll ones, but a little short on points and is another model that needs to make 9" charge.
As a side note, what are others plans for dealing with a 3++ knight?
Honestly, running the math, I don't think there is much of anything you can do about a 3++ Knight at range. Even 9 Leman Russes, a tank commander, and three Manticores would struggle to bring a Castellan down in one round even if you got a wound in early and burned Overlapping Fields of Fire to get +1 to hit. A gallant with the Paragon gauntlet might be able to pull it off though.
Castellans were obviously priced wrong, and I can expect a change in Chapter Approved. I don't think we should really have to worry about having to handle them after that.
Don't worry about killing the castellan completely then. Lower it a bracket first and then kill it when needed. If your playing a maelstrom game, like in tournaments at my FLGS, then kill his other stuff and play the mission carefully. He can't be everywhere at once especially if he's limping.
TheunlikelyGamer wrote: Don't worry about killing the castellan completely then. Lower it a bracket first and then kill it when needed. If your playing a maelstrom game, like in tournaments at my FLGS, then kill his other stuff and play the mission carefully. He can't be everywhere at once especially if he's limping.
Then he just uses the 1 or 2 cp strat to function as if he was on full wounds. There really is no cost effective way to kill one of them outside of another one of them and at that point whoever goes first likely wins the game.
TheunlikelyGamer wrote: Don't worry about killing the castellan completely then. Lower it a bracket first and then kill it when needed. If your playing a maelstrom game, like in tournaments at my FLGS, then kill his other stuff and play the mission carefully. He can't be everywhere at once especially if he's limping.
Then he just uses the 1 or 2 cp strat to function as if he was on full wounds. There really is no cost effective way to kill one of them outside of another one of them and at that point whoever goes first likely wins the game.
With CP regeneration being gimped it won't happen too often. I think we are in an okay spot now because of it, even though it hurt us a little.
If you think the answer is to go Deathwatch Smash captains, then why not just take another faction? A unit of 5 VVs with 3 THs and 2 HTHs actually dish out a good deal of wounds while keeping cost reasonable (213pts). Missing the reroll of ones to hit is rough, but wounding knights on 3s (Malleus Doctrine) and rerolling wounds (malleus tactic) means whatever you hit is reliably going to wound. Damage is then either a flat 3, or D6. 3CPs to fight again and you are putting a big hurt on that target. Yes, you have to survive Overwatch, but with Stormshields and 2 effective rerolls (strategem and warlord trait) you should get in (it might be worth taking a few cheaper stormshield dudes just to tank wounds)
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: It's silly that the HTH isn't available for Captains huh? It isn't like it would be broken when the darn thing starts at 30 points anyway.
At a minimum, black shields and vet sergeants should be able to take them. They probably should go down by 5 or more points like frag cannons did as well.
Anybody have any luck using Corvus Blackstars? Love the plane but it really seems to underperform. It's such a cool plane but it just doesn't do anything and needs help IMHO.
For starters, it needs Power of the Machine Spirit, it really does. Also, the Infernum Halo Launcher is just terrible. make it a one turn only and let it be -1 for all targets. And finally, the Blackstar launcher is just pants Zero punch (if it can even hit anything).
bullyboy wrote: Anybody have any luck using Corvus Blackstars? Love the plane but it really seems to underperform. It's such a cool plane but it just doesn't do anything and needs help IMHO.
For starters, it needs Power of the Machine Spirit, it really does. Also, the Infernum Halo Launcher is just terrible. make it a one turn only and let it be -1 for all targets. And finally, the Blackstar launcher is just pants Zero punch (if it can even hit anything).
Anybody having success?
It's sole purpose is that its a backline insertion method for frag cannons, the chief advantage being FLY should get them to some pretty inconvenient places for your opponent instead of having them come in via rhino/razorback. Infernum launchers are absolute gold vs just about every Xenos faction in the game as -2 to hit from most of the heavy Tau, Eldar, DE, and Necron gun platforms means your Corvus stands a pretty good chance of delivering its cargo. I just load it for full dakka with the infernum launcher and put a kill team inside with 4x frags/2-4x storm shield and bolter/2 barebones terminators or 2x bolter vets. In FLGS play it does great. In tournaments, not so much because most tournament lists are designed to drop a Knight per turn, so a Corvus stands zero chance.
PotMS would actually make taking the lascannons/stormstrikes a possibility. But honestly, it's such a huge target anyway I feel like investing more points into the guns is a waste of time as it will still get focused on no matter what. I'd be much happier with a price decrease on the hull or increased survivability.
bullyboy wrote: Anybody have any luck using Corvus Blackstars? Love the plane but it really seems to underperform. It's such a cool plane but it just doesn't do anything and needs help IMHO.
For starters, it needs Power of the Machine Spirit, it really does. Also, the Infernum Halo Launcher is just terrible. make it a one turn only and let it be -1 for all targets. And finally, the Blackstar launcher is just pants Zero punch (if it can even hit anything).
Anybody having success?
It's sole purpose is that its a backline insertion method for frag cannons, the chief advantage being FLY should get them to some pretty inconvenient places for your opponent instead of having them come in via rhino/razorback. Infernum launchers are absolute gold vs just about every Xenos faction in the game as -2 to hit from most of the heavy Tau, Eldar, DE, and Necron gun platforms means your Corvus stands a pretty good chance of delivering its cargo. I just load it for full dakka with the infernum launcher and put a kill team inside with 4x frags/2-4x storm shield and bolter/2 barebones terminators or 2x bolter vets. In FLGS play it does great. In tournaments, not so much because most tournament lists are designed to drop a Knight per turn, so a Corvus stands zero chance.
PotMS would actually make taking the lascannons/stormstrikes a possibility. But honestly, it's such a huge target anyway I feel like investing more points into the guns is a waste of time as it will still get focused on no matter what. I'd be much happier with a price decrease on the hull or increased survivability.
Agreed. It is definitely a delivery system. I used mine for the first time the other day and used it to deliver my frag cannon squad as well. In my friendly game the other day it survived 7 turns against eldar. -2 to hit is legit. He just stopped shooting at it and focused on other targets allowing it to roam freely picking off targets. I think I'll bring it every time I play tau or space elf varieties. Saves CP also instead of DS my vets.
I just got an absolute whipping today from a competitive SW list. Three Stormwolves made me realise how utterly under-par the Corvus is - I don't know if I can take it out again for a while! Its guns aren't worth it, and it dies easily enough, and we can't give it any better protection, and it's overcosted, and its directly competing with the teleportarium strat.
grouchoben wrote: I just got an absolute whipping today from a competitive SW list. Three Stormwolves made me realise how utterly under-par the Corvus is - I don't know if I can take it out again for a while! Its guns aren't worth it, and it dies easily enough, and we can't give it any better protection, and it's overcosted, and its directly competing with the teleportarium strat.
I still love the thing though.
It's not directly competing with the teleportarium strat. It's the only way to get frag cannons both in range and the enemy backline on turn two. But yes, outside of that, it has no function that can't be done better elsewhere and the narrow use case for it means you can't really take it in competitive as the risk of the flyer blowing up before you can get your initial 40" move over the enemy screen is too high.
I like frag cannons, don't get me wrong. But why are we so desperate to get them somewhere? Against a Predator, within 8", with the mission, and a cap, they're doing 1.35, or 2 damage each, depending on profile. That's hardly the kind of numbers to build a list around. They're good at killing marines, but so are a lot of other profiles. They're good at killing chaff, but not as efficiently as SBs with hellfire. Their best role is as overwatch denial.
None of this is to say the gun is bad - it's not, I like it, it's cool as hell. But their delivery doesn't really save the Corvus.
Martel732 wrote: I don't use the regular vets, so I can't comment.
Apparently you can.
Anyone else bummed DW are limited to standard marine psychic powers? I feel like it would have been an awesome flavor piece to give their librarians access to any lore they wanted due to the diversity of the members.
Martel732 wrote: I don't use the regular vets, so I can't comment.
Apparently you can.
Anyone else bummed DW are limited to standard marine psychic powers? I feel like it would have been an awesome flavor piece to give their librarians access to any lore they wanted due to the diversity of the members.
Marine powers need a rework anyway. I will say, though, that psychic barrier is nice on large primaris squads.
Martel732 wrote: I don't use the regular vets, so I can't comment.
Apparently you can.
Anyone else bummed DW are limited to standard marine psychic powers? I feel like it would have been an awesome flavor piece to give their librarians access to any lore they wanted due to the diversity of the members.
Marine powers need a rework anyway. I will say, though, that psychic barrier is nice on large primaris squads.
I honestly think marine powers are fine. They have some potentially very powerful uses albeit they are inferior to eldar powers by a healthy margin.
The only good thing SM psychic power have is, you can buff anybody that is loyalist marines.
For example, you can cast Might of Hero on Slamguinius and watch it have 4+1+D3 attacks and wound that Imperial Knight on 2s. Or you can cast veil of time on GMNDK or Thurnder Wolf Cavalry without the Wulfens nearby to let them reroll charge distance
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Mortal wounds are one of the last things the army needs to worry about.
Depends on what you're using to soak them up.
Guardsmen eating up MW? Not a problem.
Screening done with expensive Primaris? You'll want fortress. Not just against smite spam, either.
Then there's the value of deny that folks forget.
If MoH goes unit instead of model, it'll be amazing. If VoT allows advancing and charging, it'll be amazing. Fury of the Ancients sadly just needs to go away because I don't think it'll ever be worth casting without major changes lol
So I was planning on trying a primaris only 1500pt list. The fortis teams I plan on taking are 5 intercessors,2 aggressor, 1 inceptor. Supported by watch master and another hq. I used 1 of these teams against eldar and it worked well but I don't have enough games in with the DW yet to determine how good they are. I have maybe 7 or 8 games with them and I keep changeing my lists. I've done well but I'm always looking for better ways to play. You guys seem like you hate frag cannons but they have worked wonders for me. Is efficiency per point the reason why you guys prefer the primaris kill teams over vets?
Also does anyone use plasma inceptors? Are they worth the point or should I just use more hellblasters? Free deepstrike is a nice way to save CP when I like using the +1 to wound strats.
In full Fortis teams dropping in via teleport they're bloody terrifying, especially when you give them an Aggressor so the whole squad moves as fast as Eldar. Standalone they're not gonna survive the countervolley.
Hesselhof wrote: @lemondish: ahhhh i see i see, not for the same modell but two rerolls for the same unite, propably, k i got it^^
To clarify just in case: You CAN use it on the same model. You can't ever re-roll a re-roll, but say if your watch master has two failed invulns you could re-roll one of those with a command point and another with the warlord trait re-roll.
TheunlikelyGamer wrote: Also does anyone use plasma inceptors? Are they worth the point or should I just use more hellblasters? Free deepstrike is a nice way to save CP when I like using the +1 to wound strats.
Not in deathwatch. You can put them in a fortis team for deepstrike shenanigans, but the team will cost around 300+ points (5 intercessors, 3 inceptors, 1 agressor). At that point you are really banking on the enemy bringing something vulnerable to it. I'd rather bring a 5 intercessor/5 hellblaster team and get nearly the same output at longer range.
I ran them a lot in Dark Angels, where WoTDA meant you could one-round super heavies and knights with a 3 man unit (before the turn 1 DS nerf, but it still holds true). Some key points if you do run them:
1) Meteoric Charge is a trap. Don't get into melee willingly. With the fortis kill team you can always fall back, but you'lll always take more than you give in melee.
2) Don't drop at the 9" mark. We get use to dropping units directly at the minimum 9 inch mark, but 18" assault D3 means you are equally effective anywhere within the 18 inches. Drop around 15 inches and move around rather than sticking in place
3) Find the biggest target and hit it - You need to make a lot of points back and you'll be taking a crap ton of return fire. Ignore the little guys and drop against the biggest armored target you can find.
Hesselhof wrote: @lemondish: ahhhh i see i see, not for the same modell but two rerolls for the same unite, propably, k i got it^^
To clarify just in case: You CAN use it on the same model. You can't ever re-roll a re-roll, but say if your watch master has two failed invulns you could re-roll one of those with a command point and another with the warlord trait re-roll.
Yes, exactly. You can't reroll the same die twice. Beyond that, go ahead
TheunlikelyGamer wrote: Also does anyone use plasma inceptors? Are they worth the point or should I just use more hellblasters? Free deepstrike is a nice way to save CP when I like using the +1 to wound strats.
Not in deathwatch. You can put them in a fortis team for deepstrike shenanigans, but the team will cost around 300+ points (5 intercessors, 3 inceptors, 1 agressor). At that point you are really banking on the enemy bringing something vulnerable to it. I'd rather bring a 5 intercessor/5 hellblaster team and get nearly the same output at longer range.
I ran them a lot in Dark Angels, where WoTDA meant you could one-round super heavies and knights with a 3 man unit (before the turn 1 DS nerf, but it still holds true). Some key points if you do run them:
1) Meteoric Charge is a trap. Don't get into melee willingly. With the fortis kill team you can always fall back, but you'lll always take more than you give in melee.
2) Don't drop at the 9" mark. We get use to dropping units directly at the minimum 9 inch mark, but 18" assault D3 means you are equally effective anywhere within the 18 inches. Drop around 15 inches and move around rather than sticking in place
3) Find the biggest target and hit it - You need to make a lot of points back and you'll be taking a crap ton of return fire. Ignore the little guys and drop against the biggest armored target you can find.
Two Inceptors average like 6 shots, which is a pretty decent addition to a Fortis Kill Team, and serves as a budget version of the Hellblaster option. I actually kind of like these smaller Fortis units because I like running many of them lol
TheunlikelyGamer wrote: Also does anyone use plasma inceptors? Are they worth the point or should I just use more hellblasters? Free deepstrike is a nice way to save CP when I like using the +1 to wound strats.
Not in deathwatch. You can put them in a fortis team for deepstrike shenanigans, but the team will cost around 300+ points (5 intercessors, 3 inceptors, 1 agressor). At that point you are really banking on the enemy bringing something vulnerable to it. I'd rather bring a 5 intercessor/5 hellblaster team and get nearly the same output at longer range.
I ran them a lot in Dark Angels, where WoTDA meant you could one-round super heavies and knights with a 3 man unit (before the turn 1 DS nerf, but it still holds true). Some key points if you do run them:
1) Meteoric Charge is a trap. Don't get into melee willingly. With the fortis kill team you can always fall back, but you'lll always take more than you give in melee.
2) Don't drop at the 9" mark. We get use to dropping units directly at the minimum 9 inch mark, but 18" assault D3 means you are equally effective anywhere within the 18 inches. Drop around 15 inches and move around rather than sticking in place
3) Find the biggest target and hit it - You need to make a lot of points back and you'll be taking a crap ton of return fire. Ignore the little guys and drop against the biggest armored target you can find.
Two Inceptors average 4.5 shots, which is a pretty decent addition to a Fortis Kill Team, and serves as a budget version of the Hellblaster option. I actually kind of like these smaller Fortis units because I like running many of them lol
I think there is value to both. A Hellblaster is almost half the cost of a plasma inceptor, meaning you can put two of them in a fortis kill team for each inceptor. The two hellbalsters teleporting in will get 4 rapid fire shots at AP-4, while the Inceptor get an average of assault 4 at AP-3 (you can run the math here: http://rumkin.com/reference/dnd/diestats.php ). The Inceptor brings the valuable ability to fall back and shoot, but the hellblasters bring twice the wounds and can nail targets at 30" away when you need to nail something that doesn't want to be in assault range. The Inceptor has superior speed, but he has to stay in formation, so it's not a huge bonus.
I'm curious why you call them a budget version of hellbalsters - you have to pay for both Plasma Exterminators, bringing the cost up to 56ppm. That's not cheap.
Plasma Inceptors suck.
They sit somewhere between anti-tank and anti-infantry and suck at both - not enough power for good tank hunting, not enough shots for good infantry hunting.
TheunlikelyGamer wrote: Also does anyone use plasma inceptors? Are they worth the point or should I just use more hellblasters? Free deepstrike is a nice way to save CP when I like using the +1 to wound strats.
Not in deathwatch. You can put them in a fortis team for deepstrike shenanigans, but the team will cost around 300+ points (5 intercessors, 3 inceptors, 1 agressor). At that point you are really banking on the enemy bringing something vulnerable to it. I'd rather bring a 5 intercessor/5 hellblaster team and get nearly the same output at longer range.
I ran them a lot in Dark Angels, where WoTDA meant you could one-round super heavies and knights with a 3 man unit (before the turn 1 DS nerf, but it still holds true). Some key points if you do run them:
1) Meteoric Charge is a trap. Don't get into melee willingly. With the fortis kill team you can always fall back, but you'lll always take more than you give in melee.
2) Don't drop at the 9" mark. We get use to dropping units directly at the minimum 9 inch mark, but 18" assault D3 means you are equally effective anywhere within the 18 inches. Drop around 15 inches and move around rather than sticking in place
3) Find the biggest target and hit it - You need to make a lot of points back and you'll be taking a crap ton of return fire. Ignore the little guys and drop against the biggest armored target you can find.
Two Inceptors average 4.5 shots, which is a pretty decent addition to a Fortis Kill Team, and serves as a budget version of the Hellblaster option. I actually kind of like these smaller Fortis units because I like running many of them lol
I think there is value to both. A Hellblaster is almost half the cost of a plasma inceptor, meaning you can put two of them in a fortis kill team for each inceptor. The two hellbalsters teleporting in will get 4 rapid fire shots at AP-4, while the Inceptor get an average of assault 4 at AP-3 (you can run the math here: http://rumkin.com/reference/dnd/diestats.php ). The Inceptor brings the valuable ability to fall back and shoot, but the hellblasters bring twice the wounds and can nail targets at 30" away when you need to nail something that doesn't want to be in assault range. The Inceptor has superior speed, but he has to stay in formation, so it's not a huge bonus.
I'm curious why you call them a budget version of hellbalsters - you have to pay for both Plasma Exterminators, bringing the cost up to 56ppm. That's not cheap.
I meant to imply it's a budget version of the FULL Intercessor/5 Hellblaster build. 10 shots versus average of 8, but you aren't committing all your high str shots into one single unit. It's an option with trade offs, but can fit easier in a battalion if needed.
The AP is often unnecessary given the glut of invulns.
Martel732 wrote: I think hellblasters are a poor choice for DW. Soup in your AT. Or, use DW dreads.
No way. +1 to wound on deep striking Hellblasters with reroll 1s to wound is absolutely fantastic.
If you're absolutely positively going to build a list to be as effective in competition as you can, you probably won't be taking any marines outside of scouts and captains anyway.
But deep striking Hellblasters with a pocket reroll bubble, rerolling wounds, and +1 to wound is pretty close...
Martel732 wrote: I think hellblasters are a poor choice for DW. Soup in your AT. Or, use DW dreads.
No way. +1 to wound on deep striking Hellblasters with reroll 1s to wound is absolutely fantastic.
If you're absolutely positively going to build a list to be as effective in competition as you can, you probably won't be taking any marines outside of scouts and captains anyway.
But deep striking Hellblasters with a pocket reroll bubble, rerolling wounds, and +1 to wound is pretty close...
The -4 AP is gonna be wasted against a lot of lists.
One is 5 auto bolt rifles, 3 aggressors, 2 assault bolter inceptors
Second will be 5 regular intercessors, 4 plasma incinerator hellblasters and 1 plasma inceptor.
Adding to the AT discussion, I had a great game over the weekend where 3 Ven Dreads with Twin Las/ML were around a Captain with Dominus Aegis. Between the 5+ invuln and 6+ FNP, they were very resilient. The only thing lacking was a decent melee option should a vehicle get to assault the dreads. Might be worth adding a Thunder Hammer to the Captain to go after any vehicle that tries to assault.
Martel732 wrote: I think hellblasters are a poor choice for DW. Soup in your AT. Or, use DW dreads.
No way. +1 to wound on deep striking Hellblasters with reroll 1s to wound is absolutely fantastic.
If you're absolutely positively going to build a list to be as effective in competition as you can, you probably won't be taking any marines outside of scouts and captains anyway.
But deep striking Hellblasters with a pocket reroll bubble, rerolling wounds, and +1 to wound is pretty close...
No doubt they are strong. Especiallly against marines and Necrons. 2dmg will give Necrons a real hard time for their vehicles and Tombblades. They could also put some hurts against IG tanks and even IK, should they fail to prevent you from DS within 15" of them.
But when you face the OP stuff like Harequins, Dark Eldars. You will watch your poor Hellblasters hitting only on 5s, and kill themselves on 1 2 and 3s. Then watch your few hits bounced off their 4++.
If goes against anything with stack -1 to hit, I would not take the Hellblasters as mainstay, and instead would use Fragcannons, stormbolters and Shotguns.
Hesselhof wrote: @lemondish: ahhhh i see i see, not for the same modell but two rerolls for the same unite, propably, k i got it^^
To clarify just in case: You CAN use it on the same model. You can't ever re-roll a re-roll, but say if your watch master has two failed invulns you could re-roll one of those with a command point and another with the warlord trait re-roll.
Ahh now i´m on it^^: My Watchmaster gets 2 Lascannonn shots, i wreck both invuln, for the first i use 1CP reroll, for the second i use the trait
I have such a love/hate with hellblasters. Against some armies they dominate, against others you almost feel like you'd rather have SBs. Then there's the DS conundrum. T2 can be too late in some games, when you lose initiative, so you can't gamble on a large proportion of your army showing up after the event. (I've lost a few games on the trot now due to DS imbalance in my lists.)
But they do help to turn a siuation on its head more often than not. I think I'm going to tone them down to just 5 hellblasters. Enough to take a vehicle down a bracket or smoke a character, but not over 1/6th of your list, like the 10-man team.
Martel732 wrote: I think hellblasters are a poor choice for DW. Soup in your AT. Or, use DW dreads.
No way. +1 to wound on deep striking Hellblasters with reroll 1s to wound is absolutely fantastic.
If you're absolutely positively going to build a list to be as effective in competition as you can, you probably won't be taking any marines outside of scouts and captains anyway.
But deep striking Hellblasters with a pocket reroll bubble, rerolling wounds, and +1 to wound is pretty close...
No doubt they are strong. Especiallly against marines and Necrons. 2dmg will give Necrons a real hard time for their vehicles and Tombblades. They could also put some hurts against IG tanks and even IK, should they fail to prevent you from DS within 15" of them.
But when you face the OP stuff like Harequins, Dark Eldars. You will watch your poor Hellblasters hitting only on 5s, and kill themselves on 1 2 and 3s. Then watch your few hits bounced off their 4++.
If goes against anything with stack -1 to hit, I would not take the Hellblasters as mainstay, and instead would use Fragcannons, stormbolters and Shotguns.
You don't need to overcharge against harlequins . Their vehicles are T5 at most and 5 wounds. Dark eldar vehicles are what T6? I just throw aggressors and intercessors at both of them with the +1 strat. Smokes their vehicles easy. I just throw enough dice at them until they fail enough invul. 4 up invul isn't that great, I failnit on my HQs all the time lol.
Martel732 wrote: I think hellblasters are a poor choice for DW. Soup in your AT. Or, use DW dreads.
No way. +1 to wound on deep striking Hellblasters with reroll 1s to wound is absolutely fantastic.
If you're absolutely positively going to build a list to be as effective in competition as you can, you probably won't be taking any marines outside of scouts and captains anyway.
But deep striking Hellblasters with a pocket reroll bubble, rerolling wounds, and +1 to wound is pretty close...
The -4 AP is gonna be wasted against a lot of lists.
Martel732 wrote: I think hellblasters are a poor choice for DW. Soup in your AT. Or, use DW dreads.
No way. +1 to wound on deep striking Hellblasters with reroll 1s to wound is absolutely fantastic.
If you're absolutely positively going to build a list to be as effective in competition as you can, you probably won't be taking any marines outside of scouts and captains anyway.
But deep striking Hellblasters with a pocket reroll bubble, rerolling wounds, and +1 to wound is pretty close...
No doubt they are strong. Especiallly against marines and Necrons. 2dmg will give Necrons a real hard time for their vehicles and Tombblades. They could also put some hurts against IG tanks and even IK, should they fail to prevent you from DS within 15" of them.
But when you face the OP stuff like Harequins, Dark Eldars. You will watch your poor Hellblasters hitting only on 5s, and kill themselves on 1 2 and 3s. Then watch your few hits bounced off their 4++.
If goes against anything with stack -1 to hit, I would not take the Hellblasters as mainstay, and instead would use Fragcannons, stormbolters and Shotguns.
You don't need to overcharge against harlequins . Their vehicles are T5 at most and 5 wounds. Dark eldar vehicles are what T6? I just throw aggressors and intercessors at both of them with the +1 strat. Smokes their vehicles easy. I just throw enough dice at them until they fail enough invul. 4 up invul isn't that great, I failnit on my HQs all the time lol.
I defintely agree that +1 wound is powerful, but 1st, those Harlequin supersonic skimmer vehicles and Dark Eldar Raider / Venom are "Transport" so no stratagem give +1 wound against them. More importantly, the stack -1 to hit is ugly when going along with 4++. There maybe lucky rolls so those Harlequin transports can be taken down easy, but on average takes a squad of 3 Inceptors near the Watchmaster would only able to chip off 2 wounds from the Harlequin skimmer. Well, they are actually one of the more tough army even not counting their awesome offensive capability, and their toughness rely mainly on the modifier to hit. So I think I would give more look on the old "template" weapons .
10 hellblasters with captain rerolls, shooting without overcharge against a harlie transport does 3.8 damage. Hardly worth spending 340pts on and waiting until turn 2 for.
Automatically Appended Next Post: They're awesome against some enemies (MEQ/TEQ), pretty great against others (T7 tanks) and suck against others very hard (your harlie example). They skew your list a bit, that's why I'm dialling back to a single 5-man squad - DS them against exposed characters, to finish off wounded targets, etc.
grouchoben wrote: 10 hellblasters with captain rerolls, shooting without overcharge against a harlie transport does 3.8 damage. Hardly worth spending 340pts on and waiting until turn 2 for.
Automatically Appended Next Post: They're awesome against some enemies (MEQ/TEQ), pretty great against others (T7 tanks) and suck against others very hard (your harlie example). They skew your list a bit, that's why I'm dialling back to a single 5-man squad - DS them against exposed characters, to finish off wounded targets, etc.
If you are rerolling 1s why are you not supercharging?
Watch masters, deredeo dread, leviathan dreads, redemptor dreads, ven dreads, intercessors, and intercessors w/inceptor+aggressor are where it's at for DW I think. Vets crumble when the opponent gets a turn and the Corvus and other tricks just cost too much. SIA bolt rifles are just $$. I've seen too many lists struggle to get their stormbolters in optimal range. And the models that have them die to a stiff wind. I'd rather die to dissy cannons and autocannons than die to everything.
Martel732 wrote: Watch masters, deredeo dread, leviathan dreads, redemptor dreads, ven dreads, intercessors, and intercessors w/inceptor+aggressor are where it's at for DW I think. Vets crumble when the opponent gets a turn and the Corvus and other tricks just cost too much. SIA bolt rifles are just $$. I've seen too many lists struggle to get their stormbolters in optimal range. And the models that have them die to a stiff wind. I'd rather die to dissy cannons and autocannons than die to everything.
Half your comment made sense, but then the last half just flew off into crazy land. Par for the course.
It's not difficult whatsoever to get storm bolters into optimum range.
Common Vet squads provide two to four wounds of 2+ protection against AP 0, and two to four wounds at 3++. You shouldn't be losing Vet squads that easily. They're routinely more resilient against everything than Primaris. Are you only running 10 with just storm bolters or something? What a waste if so.
I don't use them. I've just fought against them. And seen others use them. Even with a terminator in them, I've had no trouble wiping them very quickly.
I meant get stormbolters into optimal range against the stuff they really want to hit with them.
grouchoben wrote: Lemondish, what's your preferred vet squad lodaout? Curious, because you seem to be using termies, and I haven't have much success with them.
I like a mortal wound fishing team, 5 man stormbolter squads with a shield, and a bigger team that uses VVs and shields.
I use max size Veteran squads in competitive play consisting almost exclusively with this build:
Veteran Sgt with storm bolter and chainsword
Black shield with storm bolter and chainsword
2 Veterans with storm bolters and chainswords
2 Veterans with storm bolters and storm shields
2 Veterans with frag cannons
1 Terminator with storm bolter and power sword
1 Vanguard Veteran with double chainswords
This all means there's not really a super efficient weapon type for taking out Veterans and the opponent will need to concentrate fire to really make a dent. For high str, high AP, multi damage guns like plasma, funneling the wounds to a 3+ invuln Veteran removes the value of the AP and multi damage. Likewise, funneling attrition fire (which tends to be high in volume, but 1 damage) to a 2+ model with 2 wounds means you need quite a lot of shots to punch through before he's dropped.
The VV ends up being a designated grenade bitch, should it come up. Also costs just 2 points to add extra SIA shot on the drop instead of the chainswords.
10 man maximizes stratagem usage.
They're still T4 marines, but they're pretty tanky all things considered, and they are often protected from alpha. I tend to rely on punching a hole in screens with the Primaris units, then dropping the two Vet squads into the hole alongside a pseudo smash captain and jump pack librarian. I previously used all manner of charge and pile in shenanigans with the VV to protect a squad from immediate reprisal, which will be a little bit harder now.
For not super competitive matches with friends or just fooling around, you can fit the squad in a Corvus - which is cool. I don't advise bringing a Corvus to many competitive matches, though. There are only so many inefficient choices you can make before it starts to handicap you hard, and playing marines in the first place is a pretty rough one already
If you want to go really fething inefficient in a friendly match, but run something that looks cool as balls, they'll also fit in a Redeemer. Disclaimer: I am not suggesting anybody take either a Corvus or LR to a competitive fight you wish to win.
Pretty similar to my 10 man squad - 1 VV, 3 SS, everyone has SBs that can take em. The two times I've taken a termi he's been tagged with a wound, and forced to eat the next attack, wiping him pretty easily.
218pts is a good price for 9SBs and 4 SSs. But yeah, delivery is a problem. I've been running 5 mans in razorbacks instead recently. They're fun.
grouchoben wrote: Pretty similar to my 10 man squad - 1 VV, 3 SS, everyone has SBs that can take em. The two times I've taken a termi he's been tagged with a wound, and forced to eat the next attack, wiping him pretty easily.
218pts is a good price for 9SBs and 4 SSs. But yeah, delivery is a problem. I've been running 5 mans in razorbacks instead recently. They're fun.
Yes, that is how it works with wound allocation. The benefit I find is that, compared to a 3+ vet acting as an ablative wound against attrition fire (you don't want to lose a shield to AP - after all), the Terminator will make more saves and won't reduce the unit's combat effectiveness quite as much when there's two failed saves. I find there's value in that.
I also liked using the teleport homer - tough to get right, but when it works, it really works lol
In slightly non completive match ups I started using 6 man Vet squads with combi-plasma or melta in Asscan Razorbacks. 3 of those have been really fun. Kind of expensive points wise for a mostly suicide squad, but super enjoyable. The combi-plasma is about as effective as the storm bolters against a lot of targets, even with the impact to hit by firing both (don't need to overcharge here), while giving you tools for taking on tougher units. Not at all efficient in points atm, but fun.
So as far as competetive builds I’m really out of the loop regarding DW. Are they even competitive as a mono build or do I need to add in allies ? I have all the usual suspects. Guard, knights, smash and Shield capts.
But if a build can be done without them even better.
Recently I picked up some boxes of units to start a DW build.
What I have so far:
6 boxes of vets to make 30
1 box agressors
3 Bolter inceptors
10 intercession season
1 box vanguard vets
3 terminators
2 jump capts
Librarian
Leviathan dread w/ dual star cannons
Venerable dread
2 normal dreads that can be Mortis
Lots of storm bolsters
Lots of storm shields
Any load out option needed
Other assorted SM units/ characters that can be used as DW.
I don’t have to use everything here so it’s not about using all of this.
I’m willing o pick up a few items as well.
Suggestions ? I could use DW in an RTT coming in 2 weeks. No one will run them
zedsdead wrote: So as far as competetive builds I’m really out of the loop regarding DW. Are they even competitive as a mono build or do I need to add in allies ? I have all the usual suspects. Guard, knights, smash and Shield capts.
But if a build can be done without them even better.
Recently I picked up some boxes of units to start a DW build.
What I have so far:
6 boxes of vets to make 30
1 box agressors
3 Bolter inceptors
10 intercession season
1 box vanguard vets
3 terminators
2 jump capts
Librarian
Leviathan dread w/ dual star cannons
Venerable dread
2 normal dreads that can be Mortis
Lots of storm bolsters
Lots of storm shields
Any load out option needed
Other assorted SM units/ characters that can be used as DW.
I don’t have to use everything here so it’s not about using all of this.
I’m willing o pick up a few items as well.
Suggestions ? I could use DW in an RTT coming in 2 weeks. No one will run them
Looks like you have a core of good Deathwatch models to draw from. If you're going to a RTT or bigger, than allies are pretty much mandatory if you even want to think about doing better than 0-3. Main thing is you want at least 13 CP starting. The CP regen nerf hit pretty hard though, so if you can get even more, all the better, but at least you are no longer forced to use a Guard CC as warlord since it's functionally the same as the DW warlord trait now. My last RTT went 1-2, both L's were to Death Guard. The resilience on their stuff is absolutely bonkers.
Units/models that do well for me are 2xSC Leviathan, 2x TLC Contemptor Mortis Dread (to unlock the Leviathan), Fortis Kill Team with 5 intercessor/5 aggressors, storm bolter vets, storm shield vets, barebones terminators for tanking small arm fire in vet squads (this can be really swingy though, either they do amazing or I roll two 1's in the first volley of trash shots).
I'm going to be hopefully trying out a list soon with a Gallant, two helverins, the loyal 52 (one infantry squad is max conscripts, and one psyker instead of one of the CC's), and a couple squads of fortis/vet kill teams to clear screens and even threaten tanks by volume of fire and the +1 to wound strat. Lots of CP and the Gallant should be able to tackle an opposing Knight, but not sure if there's enough AT in the list though. If I can get the second Gallant built/painted, I have another list that would run 2x Gallants 1x Helverin (think a Warglaive would be better at that point for synergy but I'm on a self-imposed buying freeze until I clear my Deathwatch/Custodes/Knights backlog).
I run a helverins/gallant/DW list myself, it's great. I wouldn't recommend a second gallant though, as it can be countered quite hard by terrain/flyers, so two would make your list weak in some matchups. Endless Fury warden would be sweet tho...
I recently thought about starting another army and thought it would be cool to have an Imperium one. Right now I own two Xenos armies (Crons and Nids). Due to both my armies being Xenos ive seen and read some fluff about Deathwatch think they look and read pretty cool!
Ive been reading through this forum for some days now and Ive got a couple of questions...
Now my questions would be whats the best way to build a 13CP list? Any mandatory HQs I have to take? (like Crypteks for Crons) What about troops...The mixed KillTeams get expensive pretty quick...The KT I thought about was 2x Vets with Storm Shield, 2Terminators (cheapest possible), 2Frag Cannons and the rest is „cheap“ Vets.
Are 2 such KT as troops enough or still not enough?
One Unit I HAVE to include is the Leviathan Dreadnought I just love it. Whats the best way to run it? Is there a „superior to all“ build of it? And how exactly do I include one in mylist? I know that Relic units require you to take another non-relic unit of the same role but can I just include one Leviathan in my Deathwatch detachment or is this illegal with the new battle brothers rule?
What I also thought about including would be a fully melee knight. What would fit best here? And is this one compatible with the Leviathan Dred or is a knight and a dred too much?
Ill obviously wait till CA2018 because nobody knows maybe there will be some point changes that make some units more attractive than others.
Is there anything else I have to know (other than buy the codex)? Any synergies, WT, stratagems, units to look out for?
If you ve read so far thanks for reading your help will be appreciated!
I recently thought about starting another army and thought it would be cool to have an Imperium one. Right now I own two Xenos armies (Crons and Nids). Due to both my armies being Xenos ive seen and read some fluff about Deathwatch think they look and read pretty cool!
Ive been reading through this forum for some days now and Ive got a couple of questions...
Now my questions would be whats the best way to build a 13CP list? Any mandatory HQs I have to take? (like Crypteks for Crons) What about troops...The mixed KillTeams get expensive pretty quick...The KT I thought about was 2x Vets with Storm Shield, 2Terminators (cheapest possible), 2Frag Cannons and the rest is „cheap“ Vets.
Are 2 such KT as troops enough or still not enough?
One Unit I HAVE to include is the Leviathan Dreadnought I just love it. Whats the best way to run it? Is there a „superior to all“ build of it? And how exactly do I include one in mylist? I know that Relic units require you to take another non-relic unit of the same role but can I just include one Leviathan in my Deathwatch detachment or is this illegal with the new battle brothers rule?
What I also thought about including would be a fully melee knight. What would fit best here? And is this one compatible with the Leviathan Dred or is a knight and a dred too much?
Ill obviously wait till CA2018 because nobody knows maybe there will be some point changes that make some units more attractive than others.
Is there anything else I have to know (other than buy the codex)? Any synergies, WT, stratagems, units to look out for?
If you ve read so far thanks for reading your help will be appreciated!
TL; DR
I want to start Death Watch pls help
Deathwatch can definitely produce a 13 CP build by running two Battalions. It's also pretty viable for the most part, but you'll need to do more than just slot this in as allies. You'll need to really devote a huge chunk of points to make this work, and even then you may end up going MSU as a sacrifice to achieve it. That sacrifice is usually worth it.
As far as mandatory HQs go, Watch Masters are pretty much it. The other options are totally viable and useful, though. Things like Librarians and Watch Captains will be your best choices - both options have a variety of great builds between squat and Primaris versions. Stay away from Chaplains (outside of the FW Chaplain Dreadnought) and avoid Artemis unless you're super dedicated to running him. He sadly just isn't worth his points.
Kill Teams are kind of a double edged sword in a few ways. Toys can get expensive on these Deathwatch boys, so you'll want to really decide what role you want your Kill Teams to serve and stick to that. They still die like marines, so keep that in mind. But they're troops, which is the backbone of Battalions, so you have an easier time fitting in elite, hard hitting options into your baseline squads.
For the Leviathan, I suggest the dual stormcannon array. This thing is an absolute beast. In order to run a Leviathan, you'll need another heavy support option, though. You can go cheap and just grab the FW quad rapier, or double down on Dreads and grab a Mortis to fill that slot. You'll need to pay this heavy support tax no matter what detachment he's in, and it's smartest to include him in a DW one to ensure he's covered by mission tactics and able to benefit from the DW stratagems.
There are a ton of synergies and unique Kill Team builds you can play with. For instance, Aggressors in a Fortis Kill Team let you advance without penalty to assault weapons, so if you add a bunch of auto bolt rifles to your Intercessors in this squad, or include an Inceptor, you get an ultra mobile unit that spits SIA dakka.
Likewise, the discussion in the last page or so on Terminators in Vet squads kind of highlights some of the cool synergies you can take advantage of. Another is a Kill Team with 5 heavy weapons, 3 bikes, and 2 Vanguard Vets - combat squad these into a backfield camping unit and a fast obsec unit that can fall back and still shoot AND charge in the same turn.
Stratagem wise you'll find the +1 to wound strats will be the most impactful, and they benefit most from having larger squads in general. Teleportarium is probably the single most powerful strat in this codex (imho) and gives you the ability to deep strike that Leviathan, if you so choose. The anti-xenos strats are a little erratic in how effective they can be, but super fun and flavourful at the same time.
There are a lot of layers to peel here with DW, and many of these options hinted at above are competitively viable. There are also less super competitive but imo super fun combinations of wargear and mixed squads that you can achieve with these units. Perhaps CA2018 might change up how we think about the different options.
Now to the KT. I prefer a more shooty army but it shouldnt be useless in melee.
My guess would be to support the leviathan Dred with some kind of „bodyguards“ to counter charge/assault yes even aggressors as chaff close to him to deny charging him and then have a solid shooty base going up the board.
Thats why I also thought about a melee knight (would be a paladin then?) who rushes upfront and literally IS a knight while the rest of the army pushes up.
I always like to have a centerpiece in my army (the Lev. Dred for example) but looking at the hefty cost of the Leviathan PLUS the heavy tax I wonder if ill have enough AT? The one idea id have as AT tax would be Hellblasters with a banner and lieutenant.
So it is legal to put the dred inside the deathwatch detachment? Im using Battlescribe and I obviously cant find him in the deathwatch units for heavy support.
The same goes for aggressors. The moving assault weapon thing sounds really cool but Ive seen them only as Elite units not troops in a KT?
EDIT: About the KT...How many are enough? 2individual KTs? Or 3? Or only one big?
If you're doing a full Deathwatch army, you're looking at 3-6 kill teams of various flavors to hit the double battalion sweet spot, but also to give you the building blocks of individual role teams.
Moreso than any other faction in 8th, DW is at its best when fielding mixed units. Outside of very specific pieces you don't want to be thinking "here's what this model does" you want to be thinking "here's what this model *and* the unit it's being attached to does". The difference in function between a basic tactical or intercessor squad and all the possible permutation of Veteran and Fortis Kill Teams is astronomical.
Also, Deathwatch is not Space Marines. The units and tactics that DW uses are very, very different. For example, there are no Lieutenants or Banner Ancients.
Hi Phaeron, Lemondish has already given some really solid advice, so I won't add much. Just to say yes, a Gallant knight with a pair of Helverins (or Armigers if you want to double down on CC knights) make a great support for a DW btallion, and you have 11CPs too, which is not bad.
As you say, AT is an issue for DW, so make sure you magnetise your knight, so you can run a Crusader too - they take a lot of that load for the DW.
Leviathans with SCAs are just top tier solid units, and yes, are totally legal for DW. You can absolutely fit one in alongside your knights in a 2k game - less likely in 1750pts.
No banner for you unfortunately - we don't get em, which is a problem that's offset by being able to deepstrike hellblasters, which revolutionises the unit, and syncs well with jump pack captains. A 5-man team is an affordable Lev tax, and can snipe a character in T2, or help chip damage off a big target. Don't go 10-man in a tournament though, imo, due to eldar minuses to hit. they sting like hell(blasters).
As for KTs, I go 3 or 4 normally: one backfield camper, one assauly fortis team, and two cheaper teams normally. But they are sooo flexible, you'll find your favourite setup with trial and error. The best thing about DW is how your models can be used in different ways, in different teams. Having said that, you should have at least 5 Stormbolter & chainsword vets asap, and a few stormbolter & shields too. From there you can get a little bit more exotic, but they'll be in every list and are stars.
I don't believe in Bikers in part of a regular Kill Team though. The need to charge after falling back when you're wanting to always shoot is kinda silly. Now I'm still a fan of a Combat Squad Kill Team with 5 Stalker Bolters and then 3-4 Bikers ans 1-2 Vanguard.
Im sorry for assuming DW could do the Lieutenant + Banner trick too. Ive only seen it in batreps for several Marine armies and thought DW could do it too
EDIT: Wow...Half of my post got deleted? Nvm...
What buggs me with the Leviathan is the heavy support tax. I just dont know how to fill it (probably going to be 5man Hellblaster Team).
As @grouchoben said I guess Ill have to dig myself through all the possible KillTeams and find the right one for me!
Again thank you all very much you really helped me a lot
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I don't believe in Bikers in part of a regular Kill Team though. The need to charge after falling back when you're wanting to always shoot is kinda silly. Now I'm still a fan of a Combat Squad Kill Team with 5 Stalker Bolters and then 3-4 Bikers ans 1-2 Vanguard.
Im sorry for assuming DW could do the Lieutenant + Banner trick too. Ive only seen it in batreps for several Marine armies and thought DW could do it too
No worries! DW is unique, but it's not like you can't try and recreate success you've had or seen in other marine armies - just with a DW flavour. A good example is the smash captain - DW flavour often includes a storm bolter with Bane Bolts (a relic) that adds extra damage and mw onto it. It's still an army held back by some of the same issues all marine armies have, though.
Which sadly means if you're looking to run the most competitive options, some of the cooler, more iconic Deathwatch units like Corvus Blackstars and Land Raiders or wargear like heavy thunder hammers are just not up to par right now. You can absolutely still find success with them, but the more subpar units you take, the harder it is to overcome the handicap. But it's an army that you can really enjoy at any level, imho.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I don't believe in Bikers in part of a regular Kill Team though. The need to charge after falling back when you're wanting to always shoot is kinda silly. Now I'm still a fan of a Combat Squad Kill Team with 5 Stalker Bolters and then 3-4 Bikers ans 1-2 Vanguard.
Im sorry for assuming DW could do the Lieutenant + Banner trick too. Ive only seen it in batreps for several Marine armies and thought DW could do it too
No worries! DW is unique, but it's not like you can't try and recreate success you've had or seen in other marine armies - just with a DW flavour. A good example is the smash captain - DW flavour often includes a storm bolter with Bane Bolts (a relic) that adds extra damage and mw onto it. It's still an army held back by some of the same issues all marine armies have, though.
Which sadly means if you're looking to run the most competitive options, some of the cooler, more iconic Deathwatch units like Corvus Blackstars and Land Raiders or wargear like heavy thunder hammers are just not up to par right now. You can absolutely still find success with them, but the more subpar units you take, the harder it is to overcome the handicap. But it's an army that you can really enjoy at any level, imho.
I wll have to read the Deathwatch dex in my local store and best buy it to get a good idea of what i like and what i wanna take. I definitely will go for the „rule of cool“ but trust me it will include the leviathan it just screams to me to be used
ImPhaeronWeasel wrote: I wll have to read the Deathwatch dex in my local store and best buy it to get a good idea of what i like and what i wanna take. I definitely will go for the „rule of cool“ but trust me it will include the leviathan it just screams to me to be used
"Rule of Cool" is basically the Deathwatch motto. There are so many neat options you can take advantage of that look sweet, though some are definitely traps the way they perform on the table. From a modeling standpoint, you get to do some really fun things, though. You know all those neat and cool looking Primaris Lieutenants they've been pretty consistently releasing?
Doesn't matter that they have a ton of iconography all over the model for a different chapter - you can fit them in here easily as long as you slap a Deathwatch shoulder pad on them and paint them mostly black. Since Deathwatch doesn't have Lieutenants though, you'll need to make a few tweaks to make sure they're up to snuff. That usually means making them a Sergeant, basing them on a 32 instead of a 40, and tweaking their wargear a bit so they're legal. I like giving power swords to my sarges, so this works out super well for me to begin with and gives my Primaris squads some extra flavour (they start to look a bit samey without it).
It's a good deal for sure. You also get a conversion sprue to make a DW captain, inquisition symbols for vehicles and extra DW shoulders. The Ven Dread is a viable unit imo, but needs support to shine.
grouchoben wrote: It's a good deal for sure. You also get a conversion sprue to make a DW captain, inquisition symbols for vehicles and extra DW shoulders. The Ven Dread is a viable unit imo, but needs support to shine.
So looks to me like going for the codex and 2x Start Collecting box is a good idea...
Ill need some marines anyway for the Fortis Kill Teams PLUS ill have enough options to build the weapons i want to have for KillTeam format. Some HQs Captains are also good to have!
@all
really thank you very much for the quick responses! Definitely makes coming up with a list for the army a lot easier
Do you have any primaris? I'd strongly recommend some intercessors and aggressors over a second start collecting set, but two won't hurt - it's just the order you buy them in.
ImPhaeronWeasel wrote: Intercessors were the standart Primaris troops right? Sorry its my first Imperium AND Marine army.
Can I include Aggressors in a fortis KT? Because im using Battlescribe App and there its not an option
EDIT: and i guess the primaris are there as obj. holders?
Fortis Kill teams can incorporate any of the Primaris infantry options. They start with a minimum of four Intercessors and one Intercessor sergeant, but can freely add Intercessors, Hellblasters, Aggressors, Reivers and Inceptors up to a total squad size of ten Primaris.
Adding an Aggressor allows the entire unit to Advance and fire without penalty.
Adding an Inceptor allows the unit to Fall Back and shoot.
Adding a Reiver gives the entire unit the Terror Troops aura (-1 leadership for any enemy unit within 3").
You can craft a Fortis team to fulfill pretty much any tactical role. Objective camper, fast assault bully, major deepstrike threat. You name the objective, there's almost certainly a configuration that can do it.
Aggressors technically come packing power fists, and Veteran squads have access to some cool toys (thunder hammers, heavy thunder hammers, your flavor of medium power weapons as well as the Xenophase blade that mucks with Invulnerable saves).
Watch Captains, Chaplains and Apothecaries are also reasonable smash vectors depending on how you kit them out.
I'd avoid melee for the DW entirely if you are looking to play at any casual competitive or higher range. Their melee options (outside of captains) are pretty bad. They are slow and don't do much damage in melee. The Primaris have no good CQC options at all and the standard marines are a trap if you give them melee loadouts.
DW are a shooty army and that is what you always want to be doing with them. With their SIA they shoot extremely well and can really lay down punishing volleys of firepower. In melee however they are only good at bullying weaker units with their high volume of attacks (Chainsword vets) or praying some wounds get through. Their punching power however is always at range with melee being an occasional thing they can do against weaker stuff.
Chaplains, IMO, are a hard pass. Why take them over a captain? They are worse in melee and you typically want to be a range where he is useless. In melee he only lets you re-roll 2s over a captain anyways so it's not a massive deal to bring him along even IF you get into melee.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: I'd avoid melee for the DW entirely if you are looking to play at any casual competitive or higher range.
Just like with everything Deathwatch, you can't plan or commit to absolutes. You have to be flexible. Avoiding melee at all costs isn't really the name of the game here. These guys aren't Firewarriors. Ask yourself why you don't want to be in combat with DW? 25 to 30 Str 4 attacks is pretty great for chewing up several decent targets - not melee-beatstick-kill-a-Knight-in-a-single-turn-great, but reliable damage from a free upgrade that, with the inclusion of a Vanguard Vet, means you don't sacrifice shooting to do it.
Veterans and Intercessors certainly are not dedicated melee units - they're marines still, so you can't expect wonders here. You don't want to rush either of them headlong into a real melee powerhouse, or put yourself out of position because you want to get into combat - but having said that, don't be afraid to mix it up on the charge to surround a tank, or take on bubble wrap.
With decent positioning, you might end up being immune to shooting for a turn. Wherever or however you deploy them, whether it's deep strike or transport, there will be times where the extra movement from charging a screen or silencing a heavy hitting unit in combat is valuable. I think it happens in nine out of ten games I play. Extra movement from the charge, pile in, and consolidation is stupid useful, especially if you can three point a chaff model.
All I'm saying is don't avoid mixing it up on the table just because the melee options in the codex aren't the most efficient choices.
The Chaplain is a fun unit, but way too expensive for what he brings - that's absolutely true. He's more a liability at that point than anything, and that's unfortunate given how neat those models are. If you absolutely, positively, must have a Chaplain - I'd say go with the Chaplain Dread. Actually not bad at all.
Allow me to correct myself here: I should have said avoid melee builds entirely and not melee itself. I absolutely agree with you in sometimes you want to melee and I worded my original thoughts on that poorly. Building for melee is what you should avoid as they are never going to be good at it compared to actual melee units. However leveraging your not as crappy melee over crappy melee (Standard marines and below) can be very valuable and an entirely legit tactic. It is however a back up strategy and not something ever build a DW list around. Veterans can get a lot of attacks and Primaris are not too far behind. They are largely all s4 Ap -, but that can add up when you have 20+ of them.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: Allow me to correct myself here: I should have said avoid melee builds entirely and not melee itself. I absolutely agree with you in sometimes you want to melee and I worded my original thoughts on that poorly. Building for melee is what you should avoid as they are never going to be good at it compared to actual melee units. However leveraging your not as crappy melee over crappy melee (Standard marines and below) can be very valuable and an entirely legit tactic. It is however a back up strategy and not something ever build a DW list around. Veterans can get a lot of attacks and Primaris are not too far behind. They are largely all s4 Ap -, but that can add up when you have 20+ of them.
You know, I totally picked that up after posting and probably should have clarified that the message is for the fresh members to the watch to avoid confusion. Have an exalt for being great and clarifying
Certainly hope that marine melee eventually gains some benefits with balance changes in the future. Black Shields and Sergeants are good vectors for power weapons today because of the extra attacks, but basic marine durability is disappointing and that's really where the big issues come from, imo.
I may be an outlier, but I tend to use the *threat* of melee more than actually meleeing with my Fortis squads. Auto Bolt Intercessors with Agressors +/- Rievers are fantastic for small bully units (either 5Ints + 1 Ag or 6Ints +2 Ags + 2 Rievs then combat squad into 5-man teams).
Use their mobility to get them up the board and threaten squishy units that want to avoid being tied up in melee. Board control is often as important as actually killing things.
Sterling191 wrote: I may be an outlier, but I tend to use the *threat* of melee more than actually meleeing with my Fortis squads. Auto Bolt Intercessors with Agressors +/- Rievers are fantastic for small bully units (either 5Ints + 1 Ag or 6Ints +2 Ags + 2 Rievs then combat squad into 5-man teams).
Use their mobility to get them up the board and threaten squishy units that want to avoid being tied up in melee. Board control is often as important as actually killing things.
Exactly, and whether it's the threat of melee forcing your opponent back or the extra movement you can get from the charge, pile in, or consolidate, you're improving your board control.
I use the 5Int,1Agg squad a lot. Like, last game I ran 4 of them to spread out and control the board quickly. Haven't considered the Reiver one, though. You find the combat knife/pistols are decent enough to include the extra bodies? I really wish the carbine wasn't unnecessarily more expensive than the auto bolt rifles lol...
I thought about melee as a thread that is close to you and takes the fire that would normally be directed at say the leviathan.
Thats something I took from necrons as you always wanted to keep your destroyers from harm...so you put a Vault in his face
I guess its just like that that i want to put my enemy in the situation „what do I focus on“ obviously if hes got enough firepower to deal with everything i own its just a bad list on my side (too few win conditions) or just a balance issue (Knights being very strong for example)
I use the 5Int,1Agg squad a lot. Like, last game I ran 4 of them to spread out and control the board quickly. Haven't considered the Reiver one, though. You find the combat knife/pistols are decent enough to include the extra bodies? I really wish the carbine wasn't unnecessarily more expensive than the auto bolt rifles lol...
I tend to eat the cost on the Carbines actually. It's only two more points than a comparable Intercessor, which is a reasonable tax for what it lets the unit do IMO. The Terror Troops rule alone alongside the 24" Hellfire / 30" Kraken threat range leans into the whole "threat" aspect more than the knife/pistol loadout. The SIA armament is far more valuable than a single close-in attack. It's less CP efficient for sure (as you cant do a cheapo battallion with three near-msu teams) but it gives you some additional options like not combat squadding if you really want to drop a terrifying melee bully unit on somebody.
It may only be a single point of LD, but that's potentially a significant percentage increase of causing downstream casualties in the Morale phase, which magnifies the threat profile of the unit. Which is the whole point of the loadout.
I use the 5Int,1Agg squad a lot. Like, last game I ran 4 of them to spread out and control the board quickly. Haven't considered the Reiver one, though. You find the combat knife/pistols are decent enough to include the extra bodies? I really wish the carbine wasn't unnecessarily more expensive than the auto bolt rifles lol...
I tend to eat the cost on the Carbines actually. It's only two more points than a comparable Intercessor, which is a reasonable tax for what it lets the unit do IMO. The Terror Troops rule alone alongside the 24" Hellfire / 30" Kraken threat range leans into the whole "threat" aspect more than the knife/pistol loadout. The SIA armament is far more valuable than a single close-in attack. It's less CP efficient for sure (as you cant do a cheapo battallion with three near-msu teams) but it gives you some additional options like not combat squadding if you really want to drop a terrifying melee bully unit on somebody.
It may only be a single point of LD, but that's potentially a significant percentage increase of causing downstream casualties in the Morale phase, which magnifies the threat profile of the unit. Which is the whole point of the loadout.
I suppose I never thought of it that way. 2 points for terror troops and the shock grenade, should it ever be necessary.
It's not the absolute bleeding edge of efficiency by any means, but it's a disruptor loadout that can really mess with folks heads if they're not ready for it.
Sterling191 wrote: It's not the absolute bleeding edge of efficiency by any means, but it's a disruptor loadout that can really mess with folks heads if they're not ready for it.
Well, all things considered, if I were definitely dedicated to the bleeding edge of efficiency I don't think I'd be playing a marine army
I'm largely concerned with "good enough" at the moment, and that sounds both fun and good enough.
I'm largely concerned with "good enough" at the moment, and that sounds both fun and good enough.
For sure. It requires some finer list management to get a good CP pool to work with, but I support my Fortis boys with a lot of Cadian and Elyssian bodies so it works pretty well for me.
Got the Start Collecting Box and to make it even funnier and more „my“ KillTeam im going to make them all Japanese-Anime-MainHero-(Cringe) DesuWatcho!!
Have to come up with names for them.
They obviously fight for the holy emperor BANZAI!!!
(And everytime one dies Ill do a sad anime 15min break with a speech )
Then the last survivor powers up up rising from the ground as he glows with righteous fury. He does this haggard yell that cracks the earth around him and runs so fast the enemy cannot react. He then cuts a tank in half with a single strike of his blade. Camera cuts to his eyes and they are all huge and filled with anger. Cut to enemy commander looking stunned as this absolute unit chops through his entire army.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: Then the last survivor powers up up rising from the ground as he glows with righteous fury. He does this haggard yell that cracks the earth around him and runs so fast the enemy cannot react. He then cuts a tank in half with a single strike of his blade. Camera cuts to his eyes and they are all huge and filled with anger. Cut to enemy commander looking stunned as this absolute unit chops through his entire army.
„Nani?“ *flies by and cuts stuff in half* „Hayai!“
You get the humor
Automatically Appended Next Post: Came up with a KT List (if theres a separate KT tactics forum ill ask there)
Low model count but pretty much feels like a KillTeam.
Not sold on the Watch Sergeant tho...But I also dont know who to swap him for...
still got 4points left and I feel like for a 100points game that are 3points too much Im missing out...
Tibs Ironblood wrote: Then the last survivor powers up up rising from the ground as he glows with righteous fury. He does this haggard yell that cracks the earth around him and runs so fast the enemy cannot react. He then cuts a tank in half with a single strike of his blade. Camera cuts to his eyes and they are all huge and filled with anger. Cut to enemy commander looking stunned as this absolute unit chops through his entire army.
„Nani?“ *flies by and cuts stuff in half* „Hayai!“
You get the humor
Automatically Appended Next Post: Came up with a KT List (if theres a separate KT tactics forum ill ask there)
Low model count but pretty much feels like a KillTeam.
Not sold on the Watch Sergeant tho...But I also dont know who to swap him for...
still got 4points left and I feel like for a 100points game that are 3points too much Im missing out...
Have you guys any suggestions?
Kill Team thread over here. You'll find a lot of good stuff there, but some of it has shifted following the Errata. Worth it to ask for clarification if something seems off.
I strongly suggest the Reiver Sergeant with carbine, knife, and grapnel. Lots of crazy shenanigans you can do with this guy.
Not sure if I ever actually gave an update on me trying the Melta Leviathan. I absolutely destroyed my opponent, but the Leviathan didn't do a damned thing. I ended up going against Thousand Sons. He ran Magnus, 10 man Termie squad, 3 Rubric Marine Squads, Ahriman, and the rest sorcerers/exalted.
Turn 1 I baited him into charging my 5 Intercessor 4 Aggressor 1 Inceptor squad with Magnus. I did 9 wounds to Magnus in Overwatch with the Aggressors and a Watch Captain. He killed all the Intercessors and I think 1 of the Aggressors in combat, I just fell back and finished him off on mu turn 1. From there it was mostly cleanup. Kill teams kept moving up and getting rid of Rubrics (2 units of 5 Auto Bolt Rifles, 1 Inceptor, 1 Aggressor) and on turn 2 I dropped in the 10 SB Vets, 10 Hellblasters, Jump Captain, Leviathan, and 10 Hellblasters. Hellblasters killed his unit of Termies, Vets finished off the last of his characters, and the Leviathan killed... 4 Rubrics? His turn 3 he conceded because all he had left was Ahriman and like 2 Rubrics.
I am actually thinking about switching out and just trying 2 Venerable Dreads or 2 Mortis Dreads instead.
ImPhaeronWeasel wrote: Is there any reason to buy normal Aggressors instead of the „easy to build“ ones?
Its not like i have more than enough bolters to convert the flamers to bolters...
You'll want the bolter feeds and the missle launchers. Without the bolter ammo, it's almost impossible to tell the difference between flamer and bolter weapons since both are gauntlet mounted barrels about 4mm long.
Captain Garius wrote: Not sure if I ever actually gave an update on me trying the Melta Leviathan. I absolutely destroyed my opponent, but the Leviathan didn't do a damned thing. I ended up going against Thousand Sons. He ran Magnus, 10 man Termie squad, 3 Rubric Marine Squads, Ahriman, and the rest sorcerers/exalted.
Turn 1 I baited him into charging my 5 Intercessor 4 Aggressor 1 Inceptor squad with Magnus. I did 9 wounds to Magnus in Overwatch with the Aggressors and a Watch Captain. He killed all the Intercessors and I think 1 of the Aggressors in combat, I just fell back and finished him off on mu turn 1. From there it was mostly cleanup. Kill teams kept moving up and getting rid of Rubrics (2 units of 5 Auto Bolt Rifles, 1 Inceptor, 1 Aggressor) and on turn 2 I dropped in the 10 SB Vets, 10 Hellblasters, Jump Captain, Leviathan, and 10 Hellblasters. Hellblasters killed his unit of Termies, Vets finished off the last of his characters, and the Leviathan killed... 4 Rubrics? His turn 3 he conceded because all he had left was Ahriman and like 2 Rubrics.
I am actually thinking about switching out and just trying 2 Venerable Dreads or 2 Mortis Dreads instead.
what would you switch out for the vens or Mortis ? the levi ?
ight get in a bit trouble as I'm going to be asking a similar question in other tactics threads over the next couple of days.
I'm looking at changing up my current guard/dkok army into an inquisitorial task force of 1350 of guard and 650pt of sister, grey knights and deathwatch that can be swapped out to keep the army feeling fresh while having a cohesive theme for display.
Any suggestions of a good general purpose 650pts of Deathwatch?
Unlike the other 2 forces I haven't really got a particular list in mind as there's so many combinations of units I like that it will be possible to cram many of them in that amount of points.
Ideally though it will be a single detachment that has some anti-tank punch, units/combinations I find interesting are:
Dual melta terminator captain with stormbolter or fragcannon totting veterans (I also like the visuals of storm bolters with storm shields but not sure its worth the points)
Some sort of shooty dread, again i like the aesthetics and wisdom of ancients and the doctrines make for a nice antitank. FW is not off limits, a grav-bombard leviathan would be .lovely but is a struggle to fit in especially with the relic rule, the contemptor mortis offers some nice fire power with out that issue, but then again the Deredeo is cheap enough that you could fit an apothecary along side which with the pavaise might make a nice defensive block with some intercessors. Or am I barking up the wrong tree thinking of autocannon strength shots with doctrines as anti-tank, after all they will only be wounding leman russes on 4's for 2 damage..
Dropping in 5 veterans with stormbolters and/or fragcannons while the other half of the killteam is bikes and vanguard veterans for some nice mobile obsec.
A block of autobolter intercessors with aggressors for mobile(ish) T5 obsec that puts down a lot of S4 shots and some decent punch in melee (maybe this in conjunction with the deredeo and apothecary though that would tie up all the points available).
For reference the guard force is a bit weird, with 2 squads of DKOK engineers with priests in valks, 3 minmum squads of grenadiers with plasma in centaurs, and 3 10 man grenadier squads baby sitting a marshal and lord commissar. Plays a bit like a poor mans dark eldar (HERESY!) but I think it suits the theme of inquisitorial special forces.
You seem to be jumping around all over the place here on what you want the force to do, so it's difficult to really provide much help except to say that you'll find cheaper, more effective anti-tank elsewhere. Don't rely on DW to provide that.
Sorry I've left it pretty open ended, I'm not expecting to fill the roles of all those combinations of units, mealy giving examples find interesting. In regards to anti-tank DW may not be the most points efficient (are they at anything) but surely their +1 to wound and rerolls work well with lascannon Morris dreads or even fragcanons equipped veterans deep striking, in both cases wounding t8 on 2's and rerolling the 1s.
I play DW & DKok, and Lemondish is right, if anything I'd swap the roles. Batallion of Korps for 5cps, 2-3 Conquerer russes, 3 basilisks, and one engineer squad for fun, because I get you, they're cool models with fun rules. Then run 1k or so of DW, and focus them around a Watchmaster, who makes everything so much better. Maybe 1 vet squad, 2 primaris squads, a libby, a squad of hellblasters and a Leviathan for s7 dakka? That's the kind of list I'd go for, 13-14cps too.
I've found the Autocannon Deredeo to be decent on its own in a CSM army. While it doesn't have Special Ammo, the rerolling to hit and wound with a plus to wound bonus would probably be excellent vs several targets.
grouchoben wrote: You're right, it could be a great match for DW, I'll give it a proxy some time!
It has a few great things going for it compared to the Levi. It's about 70 - 90 points cheaper depending on if you bring HK missiles with your Levi (you should), sits in your elite slot, which is easier to unlock for cheap, and can grant for boys a 5+ invuln. I imagine a couple of these with a couple apothecaries could really give you some insane durability, especially if you go with those mixed T5 squads. A couple units with majority T5, 2W each, 2+ save in cover and 5++ sounds pretty great.
grouchoben wrote:I play DW & DKok, and Lemondish is right, if anything I'd swap the roles. Batallion of Korps for 5cps, 2-3 Conquerer russes, 3 basilisks, and one engineer squad for fun, because I get you, they're cool models with fun rules. Then run 1k or so of DW, and focus them around a Watchmaster, who makes everything so much better. Maybe 1 vet squad, 2 primaris squads, a libby, a squad of hellblasters and a Leviathan for s7 dakka? That's the kind of list I'd go for, 13-14cps too.
I definitely agree with you, that would be more effective, but would massively effect the play style and theme of the army. I want the dkok "storm troopers" to out number the ordo militant numbers considerably and main battle tanks just feel a little out of place in an inquisition army in my opinion.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:I've found the Autocannon Deredeo to be decent on its own in a CSM army. While it doesn't have Special Ammo, the rerolling to hit and wound with a plus to wound bonus would probably be excellent vs several targets.
Aye tempted by this with lemon dishes suggestion of intercessors/aggressors and an apothecary. Do you have experience of the hellfire plasma cannonade? The 10 points cheaper make it easier to fit in the list and the gets hot is easily mitigated just not sure if number of shots or quality of shots is the best bet.
The Plasma does good damage, but you pay a lot for that AP, and to be honest most of your dangerous targets are gonna have at least an okay Invul, and that extra range with the extra shots really does matter.
Im not sure about the deredeo...although I do see nice synergy with venerable Dreds I think AP-1 and „only“ 8 shots is not enough to really be worth 200+ points
With 2x SCA Levi I pack 20 Str7 shots -2 PLUS hunterkiller missles...This sounds WAY scarier to me than 8shots -1AP
(also in Math against T7 3+/5++ its ahead).
The only problem I see is unlocking it and the point cost...Do Deathwatch really need 13CP or are they also good with 9?
There's always the option of 2 contemptor mortis, for the same cost as the leviathan you get 16 S7 AP-1 shots, with double the range, which I think is worth the -1 AP on something you want to keep still. You also get more wounds in total, which is handy and they aren't relics so no unlock needed.
ImPhaeronWeasel wrote: Im not sure about the deredeo...although I do see nice synergy with venerable Dreds I think AP-1 and „only“ 8 shots is not enough to really be worth 200+ points
With 2x SCA Levi I pack 20 Str7 shots -2 PLUS hunterkiller missles...This sounds WAY scarier to me than 8shots -1AP
(also in Math against T7 3+/5++ its ahead).
The only problem I see is unlocking it and the point cost...Do Deathwatch really need 13CP or are they also good with 9?
You're definitely not going to get the same killing power, that's true - but you're trading it for nearly 100 points free to use elsewhere, a usually cheaper and easier unlock, and a massive improvement in durability for everyone around it. I have always felt as if the Leviathan is just too many points in one basket between its normal cost, its unlock cost, and the current meta urging folks to be able to handle a Knight Castellan. The Levis 14 T8 wounds aren't going to last long without also sticking it into the Teleportarium.
I'm going to try out the Deredeo because at least on paper it looks capable.
The Leviathan wins for me because a) 3 hunter killer missiles is serious biz b) might of heroes takes him up to T9 4++ w14 which is a top-tier defensive profile c) assuming you have a watchmaster nearby, charging him is suicide for a lot of units.
ImPhaeronWeasel wrote: Im not sure about the deredeo...although I do see nice synergy with venerable Dreds I think AP-1 and „only“ 8 shots is not enough to really be worth 200+ points
With 2x SCA Levi I pack 20 Str7 shots -2 PLUS hunterkiller missles...This sounds WAY scarier to me than 8shots -1AP
(also in Math against T7 3+/5++ its ahead).
The only problem I see is unlocking it and the point cost...Do Deathwatch really need 13CP or are they also good with 9?
You're definitely not going to get the same killing power, that's true - but you're trading it for nearly 100 points free to use elsewhere, a usually cheaper and easier unlock, and a massive improvement in durability for everyone around it. I have always felt as if the Leviathan is just too many points in one basket between its normal cost, its unlock cost, and the current meta urging folks to be able to handle a Knight Castellan. The Levis 14 T8 wounds aren't going to last long without also sticking it into the Teleportarium.
I'm going to try out the Deredeo because at least on paper it looks capable.
But the deredeo with T7 and a 5++ isnt going to last any longer...then the 5++ buff is gone. Also 36“ range or 24“ dont matter to a knight so Ill obviously go form more dmg output...Then again there is the unlock price to a leviathan which is truly not optimal in DW case.
I guess both options have their own playstyle and pros and cons...but for me its going to be the leviathan due to looks and the weapons profile.
In the end Id wait till CA to see if it has some changes to knights...right now any solution we come up with is going to be sub par in comparison to the loyal 32 and knights.
Captain Garius wrote: Not sure if I ever actually gave an update on me trying the Melta Leviathan. I absolutely destroyed my opponent, but the Leviathan didn't do a damned thing. I ended up going against Thousand Sons. He ran Magnus, 10 man Termie squad, 3 Rubric Marine Squads, Ahriman, and the rest sorcerers/exalted.
Turn 1 I baited him into charging my 5 Intercessor 4 Aggressor 1 Inceptor squad with Magnus. I did 9 wounds to Magnus in Overwatch with the Aggressors and a Watch Captain. He killed all the Intercessors and I think 1 of the Aggressors in combat, I just fell back and finished him off on mu turn 1. From there it was mostly cleanup. Kill teams kept moving up and getting rid of Rubrics (2 units of 5 Auto Bolt Rifles, 1 Inceptor, 1 Aggressor) and on turn 2 I dropped in the 10 SB Vets, 10 Hellblasters, Jump Captain, Leviathan, and 10 Hellblasters. Hellblasters killed his unit of Termies, Vets finished off the last of his characters, and the Leviathan killed... 4 Rubrics? His turn 3 he conceded because all he had left was Ahriman and like 2 Rubrics.
I am actually thinking about switching out and just trying 2 Venerable Dreads or 2 Mortis Dreads instead.
what would you switch out for the vens or Mortis ? the levi ?
I am looking at trying to add in a second Battalion with it. So what I am toying with right now is either 2 Chaplain Dreads with Twin Las and a Fist, or 1 of those, with a Contemptor with Twin Las. It changes the list around though:
ImPhaeronWeasel wrote: Im not sure about the deredeo...although I do see nice synergy with venerable Dreds I think AP-1 and „only“ 8 shots is not enough to really be worth 200+ points
With 2x SCA Levi I pack 20 Str7 shots -2 PLUS hunterkiller missles...This sounds WAY scarier to me than 8shots -1AP
(also in Math against T7 3+/5++ its ahead).
The only problem I see is unlocking it and the point cost...Do Deathwatch really need 13CP or are they also good with 9?
You're definitely not going to get the same killing power, that's true - but you're trading it for nearly 100 points free to use elsewhere, a usually cheaper and easier unlock, and a massive improvement in durability for everyone around it. I have always felt as if the Leviathan is just too many points in one basket between its normal cost, its unlock cost, and the current meta urging folks to be able to handle a Knight Castellan. The Levis 14 T8 wounds aren't going to last long without also sticking it into the Teleportarium.
I'm going to try out the Deredeo because at least on paper it looks capable.
But the deredeo with T7 and a 5++ isnt going to last any longer...then the 5++ buff is gone. Also 36“ range or 24“ dont matter to a knight so Ill obviously go form more dmg output...Then again there is the unlock price to a leviathan which is truly not optimal in DW case.
I guess both options have their own playstyle and pros and cons...but for me its going to be the leviathan due to looks and the weapons profile.
In the end Id wait till CA to see if it has some changes to knights...right now any solution we come up with is going to be sub par in comparison to the loyal 32 and knights.
I don't disagree that the Leviathan is the more powerful of the two. It should be - it costs more and for DW is harder to unlock cheaply without taking a mostly useless heavy bolter quad gun for an army that has no problem with access to that type of anti-infantry firepower. My hope is that the combined benefits of a 5++ to several squads, the 100 points saved, the easier unlock, and the lower threat profile will help make it effective.
Also have to prepare for the inevitable Leviathan point increase - it's the best Dreadnought by far for ever marine force that can take it, so I'm totally expecting it'll get the Fire Raptor treatment in CA
ImPhaeronWeasel wrote: Im not sure about the deredeo...although I do see nice synergy with venerable Dreds I think AP-1 and „only“ 8 shots is not enough to really be worth 200+ points
With 2x SCA Levi I pack 20 Str7 shots -2 PLUS hunterkiller missles...This sounds WAY scarier to me than 8shots -1AP
(also in Math against T7 3+/5++ its ahead).
The only problem I see is unlocking it and the point cost...Do Deathwatch really need 13CP or are they also good with 9?
You're definitely not going to get the same killing power, that's true - but you're trading it for nearly 100 points free to use elsewhere, a usually cheaper and easier unlock, and a massive improvement in durability for everyone around it. I have always felt as if the Leviathan is just too many points in one basket between its normal cost, its unlock cost, and the current meta urging folks to be able to handle a Knight Castellan. The Levis 14 T8 wounds aren't going to last long without also sticking it into the Teleportarium.
I'm going to try out the Deredeo because at least on paper it looks capable.
But the deredeo with T7 and a 5++ isnt going to last any longer...then the 5++ buff is gone. Also 36“ range or 24“ dont matter to a knight so Ill obviously go form more dmg output...Then again there is the unlock price to a leviathan which is truly not optimal in DW case.
I guess both options have their own playstyle and pros and cons...but for me its going to be the leviathan due to looks and the weapons profile.
In the end Id wait till CA to see if it has some changes to knights...right now any solution we come up with is going to be sub par in comparison to the loyal 32 and knights.
I don't disagree that the Leviathan is the more powerful of the two. It should be - it costs more and for DW is harder to unlock cheaply without taking a mostly useless heavy bolter quad gun for an army that has no problem with access to that type of anti-infantry firepower. My hope is that the combined benefits of a 5++ to several squads, the 100 points saved, the easier unlock, and the lower threat profile will help make it effective.
Also have to prepare for the inevitable Leviathan point increase - it's the best Dreadnought by far for ever marine force that can take it, so I'm totally expecting it'll get the Fire Raptor treatment in CA
Ye i understand what you mean.
Thats what im afraid of too...especially since its ForgeWorld...Thats why im hesitant to buy ANYTHING big before CA drops...
Thats what im afraid of too...especially since its ForgeWorld...Thats why im hesitant to buy ANYTHING big before CA drops...
I have more than enough stuff to work on, personally. It's a good time for me to have a backlog as it encourages me to finally get through it all, proxy a few models here and there to see if I want to add them to my collection, and overall just prepare for the eventual double wave of inevitable new Primaris stuff in the new year, and adding in new units made viable from CA.
I personally want to add in some more Repulsors, a Corvus, or a Land Raider...just need CA to delivery
Ye I totally get what you mean...I can finally paint my existing Necron army...at least the most basic units I use...troops...destroyers etc.
Build up the Deathwatch army to where I can add stuff afterwards...maybe paint up my Nids...stuff like that
Ye I like the repulsor and Corvus model too but 300points is just too much for them so Ill pass on them for now...I hope CA doesnt kill the Leviathan...it just has that something special to me
You don't HAVE to take that quad heavy bolter mount. You could say use Hellblasters who also teleport in. More points, but teleporting Hellblasters are also fairly popular.
All that said, my enthusiasm for the Leviathan did drop markedly once Knights became so ubiquitous. Now, everyone can handle a Knight and if you can drop a Knight you can drop a Leviathan even easier. I'll be sad if it goes up in points, then you really might as well take a Knight instead.
Thats why I hate this meta so much...Its my personal observation but I think Knights changed the meta the most...where as at first it wasnt that smart to pump so much points into one single model and IF you did it you literally had to build around it...know you just take the one model that has enough fire power to destroy entite armies plus it works pretty much independently from the rest of the army...its still „cheap“ enough to take other strong stuff that gets you points (mainly Guard)...
I said it in a necron forum already...the meta changed to AM + anything thats strong on its own (BA Captains, Dawneagles, Knights etc.) and Ynnari...
EDIT: Thats why I also dont want to take a Knight in my list although it would fit just fine...I just hate them...they are broken...they have only one weaknes...other knights and other AM Soup lists...thats not fun for your opponent and maybe only once fun for yourself...
Yup, I was never big on the superheavies existing, cause I felt like they just completely overshadowed regular tanks. If someone needs to be prepped for 30 wounds of T8, they can take on your dreads/rhinos without breaking a sweat. And I actually liked having small vehicles in my lists. But, oh well, GW went big.
ImPhaeronWeasel wrote: Thats why I hate this meta so much...Its my personal observation but I think Knights changed the meta the most...where as at first it wasnt that smart to pump so much points into one single model and IF you did it you literally had to build around it...know you just take the one model that has enough fire power to destroy entite armies plus it works pretty much independently from the rest of the army...its still „cheap“ enough to take other strong stuff that gets you points (mainly Guard)...
I said it in a necron forum already...the meta changed to AM + anything thats strong on its own (BA Captains, Dawneagles, Knights etc.) and Ynnari...
EDIT: Thats why I also dont want to take a Knight in my list although it would fit just fine...I just hate them...they are broken...they have only one weaknes...other knights and other AM Soup lists...thats not fun for your opponent and maybe only once fun for yourself...
It's not just that they changed the meta - every codex did, in some way. It's that, because of the release schedule, it made a semi-permanent change that has cemented the competitive meta for 5 months. That's the longest period of stability in 8th edition thus far.
But these competitive lists DO build around the Knight. One Knight in particular - the Castellan. The CP generation of Guard, along with their previous regeneration ability using Kurov's and Grand Strategist (before the FAQ) was all about boosting the Castellan and giving it unending CP to do its job. It was also all about boosting the smash captains, too. Can't fund both, now.
Since the FAQ I've seen a lot of really interesting builds from armies that long fell off the competitive landscape, though. And they're playing high! I think Knights and Guard infantry are the outliers that will be addressed in CA, but even then we're seeing it shift a bit with each new tournie thanks to the FAQ. Once Orks come in and we see if they can drown the Castellan in a green tide, the meta may shift.
In any case, DW was never super viable anyway on account of being marines plus. I've not had much issue being competitive locally, but I think the thing that helps is basically having the closest thing to a Knight in the form of a Dreadnought that spits out a bazillion shots. I personally would love to be able to split those points out on other, smaller vehicles and units - but they aren't nearly as effective.
Are Ravenwing Talons a thing?
I have 3 list ideas with either DW plus Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves
I really have to say i LOVE DW.
I like their design plus all the stuff I can do with allies (without being THAT GUY) it amazes me...its like a new world opens when you only play necrons and nids (or just xenos)
Think I'm opening another can of worms here as it's possibly more suited to YMDC.
With most recent FaQ is it still possible to use beacon angelis to relocate another squad out of the deployment zone? On top of this as far as I can see you can still advance afterwards (apologies if I'm making a rookie error) is this correct?
My reasoning being it may just about get fragcanons in strength 9 range turn 1 when used with a jump pack captain to bounce them up the field.
ragnorack1 wrote: Think I'm opening another can of worms here as it's possibly more suited to YMDC.
With most recent FaQ is it still possible to use beacon angelis to relocate another squad out of the deployment zone? On top of this as far as I can see you can still advance afterwards (apologies if I'm making a rookie error) is this correct?
My reasoning being it may just about get fragcanons in strength 9 range turn 1 when used with a jump pack captain to bounce them up the field.
Unless the wording changed, as long as they both started on the board, they're good. Much like Da Jump or GoI.
Unless the wording changed, as long as they both started on the board, they're good. Much like Da Jump or GoI.
Nice, that's good to know. Does that go for advancing too? As far as I can remember you can't after deep striking but can't see anything in the wording for the beacon that prevents it.
Not crszy powerful as they'll be sitting ducks if you don't have enough other threats or terrain but nice to be able to put more pressure on turn 1.
Unless the wording changed, as long as they both started on the board, they're good. Much like Da Jump or GoI.
Nice, that's good to know. Does that go for advancing too? As far as I can remember you can't after deep striking but can't see anything in the wording for the beacon that prevents it.
Not crszy powerful as they'll be sitting ducks if you don't have enough other threats or terrain but nice to be able to put more pressure on turn 1.
Unfortunately that is the case. Beacon happens at end of movement phase, so no advancing. You would likely be advancing the jump captain anyway, 12+3.5+ deploy forward within 6" of him gets you a unit 21" up the board. Aggressors range 18" means you're guaranteed to be able to choose the chaff unit(s) you want dead.
I tried to do a melee deathwatch list but I cant bring myself to ignore blood angels for it.
The +1 to wound is just to good to not make use of it also you get a „cheap“ scout battalion with SmashCaps.
Does anybody here know good BA hitters? ThunderHammers with StormShields or something?
I want the deathwatch to give fire support (via FragCannons maybe Aggressors and VenDreads) and the BA to melee assault the enemy.
ImPhaeronWeasel wrote: I tried to do a melee deathwatch list but I cant bring myself to ignore blood angels for it.
The +1 to wound is just to good to not make use of it also you get a „cheap“ scout battalion with SmashCaps.
Does anybody here know good BA hitters? ThunderHammers with StormShields or something?
I want the deathwatch to give fire support (via FragCannons maybe Aggressors and VenDreads) and the BA to melee assault the enemy.
Any ideas?
You hit the nail on the head. Build a smash cap, give him a lib as backup, profit. Might be best to ask in the BA thread (don't want to derail by going into detail on a different army).
ImPhaeronWeasel wrote: I tried to do a melee deathwatch list but I cant bring myself to ignore blood angels for it.
The +1 to wound is just to good to not make use of it also you get a „cheap“ scout battalion with SmashCaps.
Does anybody here know good BA hitters? ThunderHammers with StormShields or something?
I want the deathwatch to give fire support (via FragCannons maybe Aggressors and VenDreads) and the BA to melee assault the enemy.
Any ideas?
Affirmative the BA element as assault units. You may like the Slamgunius Captains to deal with high toughness targets, a Priest on jumppack to give +1S, and a Librarian or Librarian Dread to provide psychic buff. Then a squad of Death Company, mainly for dealing with "relative low toughness" but high model count units.
For the shooting element from Deathwatch, Frag Cannon, Aggressors can do fire support at close range, while don't overlook the humble stormbolter if you are in 12", when the high RoF paired with SIA it can be deadly. The VenDread is better equip with Twin Las and ML for long range AT.
I am also trying a mixed squad with long range fire support: 6 Stalker boltgun veterans, some of them also take SS, 1 Missile Launcher and/or 1 Heavy Bolter Veteran, Terminator (CML optional depends on points), Vanguard with cheap loadout. Sit at the back and shoot. Make good use of a lot of Stratagem and the right selection of SIA, it can be serious threat. For example, if going against IK, you potentially dish out 2D3 MW plus 3 shots wounding of 3s dmgD6 and 10 shots wounding on 5s all at AP-2 which is the best AP value against IK. If against Flyrant, or Magnus or Morty, you might be able to dealt 3D3 mortal wounds, plus 2 Krak missile shots and 10 shots wounding on 2s.
Its not very conpetitive and espacially still not optimized.
The Deathwatch detachment is going to support the BA melee detachment.
With the DW relic Im going to push the aggressors up the board...The FragCannons will have to walk/advance...Im not sure what to do with the third vets squad...at first they were a hellblaster KT but i dropped them for another VenDread.
Scouts for obj. holding
the Captain and the Vets are my heavy melee hitters...Now I dont know if 10 of them are too much? The 5 with chianswords are just there as meat shields and to not waste the TH on chaff/low armour...If everythings alright im still lacking 12points ...
Any help is appreciated!
EDIT: Im intentionally not using any FW stuff or Knights before CA drops!
RogueApiary wrote: Check out the Deathwatch list that's 3-0 on day one of the socal open on the BCP app. No CP battery.
It's like a battalion of hellblaster/intercessors and a unit of hammer Terminators with an assassin vanguard and two xiphons.
Beat a 3 Knights + guilliman list, an Alaitoc list that honestly doesn't look too crazy, and a 3 Knight Crusader + SM scout battalion list.
Hoping he does well tomorrow. But hot damn, going 3-0 with a squad of Terminators is good gak.
No CP battery, no cheap chaff for board control, hammer Termies, no Vets, and no Librarians to support the smash cap. Interesting build...always thought the Xiphons were ace, though. Glad to see them.
Seems to really want to make use of those hammers against the Knights I guess? +1 to wound and rerolling 1's would help I guess. Vanguard would get in the thick of it a lot quicker though.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Seems to really want to make use of those hammers against the Knights I guess? +1 to wound and rerolling 1's would help I guess. Vanguard would get in the thick of it a lot quicker though.
How are these Terminators getting into melee?
Dunno, guessing he's using teleportarium/beacon to hide them in ruins near the Knight after making a hole with the other stuff T1. But it looks like he got knocked out by a Ravager/Raider DE list in round 5. Still currently ranked 28th out of 172. Waiting for the next game to update to see the final standings.
RogueApiary wrote: Check out the Deathwatch list that's 3-0 on day one of the socal open on the BCP app. No CP battery.
It's like a battalion of hellblaster/intercessors and a unit of hammer Terminators with an assassin vanguard and two xiphons.
Beat a 3 Knights + guilliman list, an Alaitoc list that honestly doesn't look too crazy, and a 3 Knight Crusader + SM scout battalion list.
Hoping he does well tomorrow. But hot damn, going 3-0 with a squad of Terminators is good gak.
No CP battery, no cheap chaff for board control, hammer Termies, no Vets, and no Librarians to support the smash cap. Interesting build...always thought the Xiphons were ace, though. Glad to see them.
Sounds like Xiphons contributed a lot, could the Deathwatch army remain competitive without the aid of FW units?
RogueApiary wrote: Check out the Deathwatch list that's 3-0 on day one of the socal open on the BCP app. No CP battery.
It's like a battalion of hellblaster/intercessors and a unit of hammer Terminators with an assassin vanguard and two xiphons.
Beat a 3 Knights + guilliman list, an Alaitoc list that honestly doesn't look too crazy, and a 3 Knight Crusader + SM scout battalion list.
Hoping he does well tomorrow. But hot damn, going 3-0 with a squad of Terminators is good gak.
No CP battery, no cheap chaff for board control, hammer Termies, no Vets, and no Librarians to support the smash cap. Interesting build...always thought the Xiphons were ace, though. Glad to see them.
Sounds like Xiphons contributed a lot, could the Deathwatch army remain competitive without the aid of FW units?
I mean in general without FW I'd say no, though I feel like the non FWAT in his list is covered as best as it can be with the 10 hellblasters + TH terminators/smash captain. But outside of a few relatively small competitive metas, FW is an organic part of any given faction's arsenal so it's kind of like asking, "can X army remain competitive missing Y number of its codex entries."
Looks like he got wrecked by Ynnari/Harlequins in round 6. Still final rank 28 out of 172 ain't bad for nearly mono-DW with no CP battery. Mad props to that dude.
Deathwatch lists placed 27th, 46th, 47th, 162nd, and 163rd out of 171 lists.
Top list was from Mr. Evans with a bunch of mixed Veteran squads all with storm bolters, a couple Terminators in each, a Vanguard Vet too, and a bunch of storm shields. Allies were a Supreme Command Space Wolves detachment with Njal, a couple Rune Priests, and Murderfang (!!!) alongside an allied DA battalion with scouts, a Librarian, and a Lieutenant.
Another list was piloted by Mr. Woods: a heavy focus on Primaris with one Kill Team packing Aggressors and another with Plasma Inceptors. This was attached to a Dark Angels Batt with a Talonmaster, Sammy, scouts, and a DA Plasma Inceptor squad.
We discussed Mr. D'Amore's list already: Xiphons, Assassins, DW Terminator Hammer squad, and Primaris Kill Teams.
Out of the lower placed guys, only one had a list on BCP - Mr. Bratcher, sporting a Guard CP Battery, a single Culexus, and a couple really eclectic mixed Veteran squads. Also brought a Corvus, a Ven Dread, and a Bike squad. Seriously, this list had a lot of fun and cool looking units, even if they weren't too effective or points efficient. I'm seeing a heavy weapon Vet team with a Cyclone Terminator, stalkers, and missile launchers. Another one with a bike, a Terminator, and some Frag Cannons (probably for the Corvus). No Storm bolters on vets, very few storm shields at all.
In summary, this is a small sample size, but Primaris seem to do good work, and allies are common to plug DW weaknesses. Even with that being said, the storm bolter/shield Vet squads with Terminators to tank low AP shots are great still. Mr. Bratcher unfortunately finished really low, but I think it's important to note his list had a huge focus on traditional ranged anti-armour firepower from DW sources, relying heavily on missiles (from the Corvus, the Dread, and the heavy weapons vet team). I imagine in a meta where everybody needs to be able to kill a Knight, the Corvus and Dread were probably dead early on, and the extra points spent on the heavy weapon infantry meant less boots on the ground. Everyone else found different anti-armour solutions, usually through allies using psykers and allied strats/weapon options in place of DW ones. Some internal solutions included thunder hammers and psykers. His list was also the only Guard CP battery, though the cheap scout battalions in the other lists could qualify (even if they often included other key pieces). Mr. D'Amore had the most points committed to DW than any other list, and had those unique unit choices we mentioned on the last page. Mr. Evans, who placed highest, brought a unique mix of allies I don't think we see often. Not quite soup - more like meat and potatoes. Us Astartes need to stick together, after all But going DA instead of BA was an interesting choice, and not as common.
I'm still liking my primaris dw list with special guest star iks. I'm using an errant, because the thermal cannon is hilarious sometimes. Also, the deredeo is sneaky good AT as a dw unit.
Martel732 wrote: I'm still liking my primaris dw list with special guest star iks. I'm using an errant, because the thermal cannon is hilarious sometimes. Also, the deredeo is sneaky good AT as a dw unit.
Do you play it with the Heavy 8 autocannons? And only one? How does it perform in an actual game?
Yeah I use the anvillus battery with the 5++ generator for his redemptor buddy. The list also has the errant and two helverins. It works quite well. People frequently target the helverins or IK first. I also use the ignore cover warlord trait for my DW, so it can do a lot of work on units that aren't immediately obvious. Against say mono DE or mono IG, I can deep strike all my infantry with the teleportarium. Pretty handy, that. 5 big targets plus primaris are pretty stingy on units lost in ITC format. It's working much better than I anticipated, really. But can't be replicated with marines, because SIA ammo and embedded aggressors are key.
I'm very curious as to what your exact list looks like. It seems like you're having okay success with Deathwatch, and we all know how bad your meta is.
Errant w/relics based off opponent faction
Helverin
Helverin
Watch master w/book of doom
Primaris libby (someone have a better hq?)
Intercessors w/power sword
Intercessors w/power sword
Intercessors +3 dakka aggressors +2 bolter inceptors w/power sword
Redemptor w/gatlings
Deredeo w/anvillus battery and shield thingie.
After the faq, the new stratagem has helped a lot actually b/c I suck at going first. I've beat a lot of lists and fought eldar soup hard. Last eldar loss was 26-24.
It i see drukhari or ig, I pay to deep strike my infantry.
Castellans are not fun, but the nerf bat is coming.
Got the codex now...I see some crazy dmg potential with Hellfire rounds, and the other stratagem for 2D3 MW...Obviously nothing that will kill a Knight but cripple a T7 10+ wounds vehicle
Now I also know why people prefer the Deredeo with VenDreds...You can easily pick out and harass high T units to death/uselessness
I did some maths and just noticed that the Deathwatch may now be in great trouble against Orks as well, the probability of their 9" charge success is boosted to 57% with the buff of their new Ere We Go, so they can charge outside of the range of Heavy Flamer and "auto-hit" mode of Fragcannon shotguns with a much higher reliability. This also make our "anti Ork" stratagem more useless than before since they can avoid the most deadly overwatch weapons.
It looks like a squad of veterans all with stormbolters maybe the way to go in the future, go cheap, rely on SIA and just hope for the best enemy won't kill enough of the T4 Sv3+ leaving you without enough number of shots, the Frag Cannon is becoming even less worth for its points now, shame..........
Martel732 wrote: Use embedded aggressors with watch master and tell orks come get some. Dont use the one wound guys
Yeah, ok, a squad of Primaris kill team containing 4 Aggressors with Watch Master would have around 46% chances to kill 5 Orks or more, not counting other models contribution, good enough to make them fail a mid-ranged charge with the anti-Ork Stratagem. The Stratagem is not dead yet.
Yeah, lets switch to Primaris and forget about the old marines......
I mean the "auto-hit mode" of the two weapons: Fragcannon and Deathwatch Shotgun, which I was once thought to be the best weapon to combine with the stratagem.
Martel732 wrote: I never considered using the one wound dw guys. Too fragile.
Storm Shields alleviate the issue a bit, but I don't bother with that because if someone wants a near 20 point model dead, it'll be dead haha
It's all about that initial strike the Vets can pull. Whether they live is a different story.
I play against a lot of smites, too. Nothing eats up those vets like smite. Also, bolt rifles with kraken ammo can reach out and touch annoying units without the need for deep strike.
Honestly I'm not terribly bothered by Smites anymore, as I predict it'll still be complained about and the beta rule will be official in Chapter Approved. Right now my list looks like:
Battalion:
Terminator Captain w/ Banebolts, Melta Fist and Black Vault Warlord Trait
Watch Master
Patrol
Watch Master
5 Intercessors w/ Auto Bolt Rifles and 1 Launcher, Aggressor
5 Intercessors w/ Auto Bolt Rifles and 1 Launcher, Aggressor
Loyal 32, with Lascannons in the Infantry, Cadian
Basically I already know Knights were hit with the CP regeneration change, and we know there's going to be a price hike. It's a solid amount of bodies with the only real weakness being much larger tanks. That's an issue with mostly pure Deathwatch anyway though.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'll probably switch out one of the Masters with a cheaper HQ and use the points for another Lascannon Infantry. As long as I keep them still I can get the Order for a full reroll to hit and that's good enough for me temporarily.
Martel732 wrote: I never considered using the one wound dw guys. Too fragile.
Weird. My experience has been that Vets actually last much longer than my Primaris kill teams. There's not really any good super efficient weapon choice for killing mixed Vet squads the way there is for Primaris. The Primaris have zero reliable access to invulns and make 2 damage weapons super efficient against them. Seriously, Dissies cost less than an Intercessor, but can statistically kill 1 a turn guaranteed, while doing a third of that damage to a stormshield vet. Hell, even against each other, a 5 man squad of Vets with shields and storm bolters will kill two and a half times more Intercessors than the Intercessors will kill the Vets. The extra wound barely does anything these days. I like my Primaris kill teams, but they die quick to anything with even a modicum of AP.
Nothing beats guardsmen for eating smites, though.
Vs drukhari they all go in the teleportarium until the armigers knock out the ravagers.
Also my list has no one wound models, so I'm hurting one damage weapons effectiveness a lot. It's a slew list with option for extra skew via teleportarium.
Martel732 wrote: Vs drukhari they all go in the teleportarium until the armigers knock out the ravagers.
Also my list has no one wound models, so I'm hurting one damage weapons effectiveness a lot. It's a slew list with option for extra skew via teleportarium.
Interestingly, that's only true for AP 0 and AP -1 when comparing Vets in power armour and storm shields directly to Intercessors. Any 1 damage weapon at AP -2 is killing Primaris at the same clip as it kills Vets with 3++. Anything past AP -2 is killing Primaris faster, plus they're dying in droves to anything that rocks multi-damage. But since most Vet squads include a couple Terminators to tank exactly those nil and low AP shots, you're getting a lot of the same benefits the Primaris give you with 2 wound troops for a huge portion of the damage that comes pouring in. Out of cover the opponent still statistically needs the following to kill both Terminators before those AP 0 and AP -1 shots even start hurting Vets:
144 str 3 AP 0 equivalent shots from BS 4+ units (you lose 4 Intercessors to the same firepower instead of just 2 Terminators),
72 str 4 AP 0 equivalent shots from BS 3+ units (you lose 4 Intercessors to the same firepower instead of just 2 Terminators),
54 str 5 AP 0 equivalent shots from BS 3+ units (you lose 4 Intercessors to the same firepower instead of just 2 Terminators),
36 str 4 AP -1 equivalent shots from BS 3+ units (you lose 3 Intercessors to the same firepower instead of just 2 Terminators),
27 str 5 to 7 equivalent AP -1 shots from BS 3+ units (you lose 3 Intercessors to the same firepower instead of just 2 Terminators).
That's a lot of firepower. Its pretty even on the amount of points lost against the cheaper more numerous weapon brackets, too - 4 Intercessors is 80 points, and 2 Terminators with power swords are 78. At the higher AP and str range, the Primaris wins out on the points efficiency. When the full Fortis Kill Team runs T5 majority, at about a 30 point premium above the vet squad (if we use your aggressor/inceptor squad as a guide), they end up equivalent to the Termies at str 4 Ap -1, but still lose more models at all other brackets until the Terminators die. It's a much smaller gap there, and in a vacuum that means once the Termies die, the gap goes the other way in favour of the Primaris, so major win there for Primaris.
But 40k isn't a vacuum - folks will have tools to kill heavy infantry, and the Vets can survive that more than the Primaris can. They also don't have to hide in the Teleportarium since they have access to better, cheaper transports.
Statistically, vets are more durable against more targets, are offensively more capable, and tend to run a tad bit cheaper than the Primaris options. The value of an extra wound is always inflated - both from GW's perspective and the players.
I think a mix is the best list option. I like my barebones intercessors squads camping in ruins for that 2+/2w profile, sitting on back objectives. I like my vets with all the stormbolters leaping out and dakka'ing things in the face.
grouchoben wrote: I think a mix is the best list option. I like my barebones intercessors squads camping in ruins for that 2+/2w profile, sitting on back objectives. I like my vets with all the stormbolters leaping out and dakka'ing things in the face.
Absolutely. A mix is the best for most cases. I find Primaris to be great at hunkering down on top of objectives and I'd almost alwyas rather be deep striking or delivering Vets in transports. I'm not lucky enough to be in a static meta - everyone here wants to bust it wide open as often as they can. Its fun, but sometimes real maddening lol. Hard to gauge the efficacy of one's list if the competition keeps changing things up so often lol
Hah! Yeah, I'm locked into our local Chapter League: monofaction 2k games, preferably SM or CSM, sticking with the same faction. Man, it's been a hoot, and it's led to us all honing our lists to squeeze the pips. No big meta swings because we're all hunkered down in our respective Chapterhouses plotting and scheming
grouchoben wrote: I think a mix is the best list option. I like my barebones intercessors squads camping in ruins for that 2+/2w profile, sitting on back objectives. I like my vets with all the stormbolters leaping out and dakka'ing things in the face.
Absolutely. A mix is the best for most cases. I find Primaris to be great at hunkering down on top of objectives and I'd almost alwyas rather be deep striking or delivering Vets in transports. I'm not lucky enough to be in a static meta - everyone here wants to bust it wide open as often as they can. Its fun, but sometimes real maddening lol. Hard to gauge the efficacy of one's list if the competition keeps changing things up so often lol
At my LGS we tend to play with a *lot* of terrain, such that keeping Fortis teams in cover is a quite easy. Midfield Interblaster teams (5x Ints + 5x Hellblasters) have been rock solid MVPs for the last several weeks. Backfield camping typically gets relegated to the supporting IG bodies who are tickling everything on the board with their mortars.
