ballzonya wrote: whats everyone's opinion on either a watch captain or go primaris captain?
take the ever sought after Storm Bolter
AND put Bane Bolts in it....
And then give the Watch Master the +1 damage for his weapon. Frickin brilliant.
Not competitive but brilliant
I believe the warlord or the bane bolts themselves have a clause about not working with each other so no 4 damage bullets, but I mean hey 3 damage is not so bad either.
ballzonya wrote: whats everyone's opinion on either a watch captain or go primaris captain?
take the ever sought after Storm Bolter
AND put Bane Bolts in it....
And then give the Watch Master the +1 damage for his weapon. Frickin brilliant.
Not competitive but brilliant
I believe the warlord or the bane bolts themselves have a clause about not working with each other so no 4 damage bullets, but I mean hey 3 damage is not so bad either.
Eh it's a way to have Multi Damage weapons at range for your HQ dudes.
The Spear doing 2 damage at minimum is pretty awesome though
ballzonya wrote: whats everyone's opinion on either a watch captain or go primaris captain?
take the ever sought after Storm Bolter
AND put Bane Bolts in it....
And then give the Watch Master the +1 damage for his weapon. Frickin brilliant.
Not competitive but brilliant
I believe the warlord or the bane bolts themselves have a clause about not working with each other so no 4 damage bullets, but I mean hey 3 damage is not so bad either.
Eh it's a way to have Multi Damage weapons at range for your HQ dudes.
The Spear doing 2 damage at minimum is pretty awesome though
Yeah the spear is for sure a solid weapon all around and if you make it your warlord trait weapon both profiles would get the +1 damage making the melee far more reliable for multi wound models. My only problem with that is that the DW are so command point hungry you need to take the lord of hidden knowledge or better yet take a guard detachment and make the company commander your warlord for their superior CP trait.
A dumb combo would be the Banebolts on a Storm Bolter, the weapon damage Warlord Trait on the Wrist Grenade Launcher, and a Melta Power Fist. It isn't good at all but can you imagine?
Dakka Wolf wrote: Necrons are always the hard one for me.
Trying to choose between 4+ to wound rolls with -2 to saves or 2+ to wound rolls with no save modifier.
Plasma seems to be the best gun for hitting Necrons.
What we ought to do is make a chart for the Special Ammunition and where to use it for both the Storm Bolter Vets and the Primaris Bolt Rifles. We can argue about Bolt Carbines vs Bolt Rifles any other day, but how about we get a chart going otherwise? I can volunteer time tomorrow to do that hopefully
As for which round to use: whatever ammo lets you rapid fire. If you're already in range to rapid fire with everything, vengeance rounds.
I set out to write a Python script to brute-force the situation since your table governs the most common targets and there do exist edge cases it doesn't cover; taking "always rapid-fire if possible" as a given we can reduce the question to a simple form: for a given T/Sv combination, how much AP is necessary to overcome the advantage of wounding on 2+?.
Which special ammo to use follows quite neatly from that answer; if you can get that much extra AP (via Kraken or Vengeance rounds against targets with an Invulnerable save) do, if you can't don't.
I've run my computation a few times given different parameters, and here's the data it's spat out:
With AP0 bolt weapons: Kraken or Vengeance rounds are better than Hellfire rounds against T4/2+ and T3/2+-4+; Vengeance rounds (but not Kraken rounds) are better than Hellfire rounds against T3/5+, T4/3+-4+, and T5/2+. Otherwise use Hellfire.
With bolt rifles: Kraken or Vengeance rounds are better than Hellfire rounds against T3/2+-3+, Kraken rounds are additionally better than Hellfire rounds against T3/4+ and T4/2+-3+, but otherwise use Hellfire.
In summary:
Use Vengeance when possible if presented with well-armoured/in-cover T3/T4 units. If you can't get rapid-fire range with Vengeance use Kraken instead against T3/T4 units with a 2+, or if you can't get range/rapid-fire range with Hellfire. Otherwise use Hellfire.
Against vehicles always use Vengeance if you can and Kraken if you can't.
If you have a bolt rifle or Stalker bolter the only edge Kraken has left is range.
Extreme edge cases:
T8 non-vehicle targets with good Invulnerable saves: This is the one case I found in which one shot with one ammo type actually does outperform two shots from another. Even if it's in the band where Kraken gets two shots and Hellfire one Hellfire still takes it.
T5/2+: I was surprised too but Vengeance rounds do manage to overcome Hellfire's to-wound advantage against Death Guard Termniators and Custodian infantry without storm shields. Disregard this entry if using bolt rifles or Stalker bolters; the extra AP on Hellfire in those cases tips the scales back its way.
ballzonya wrote: whats everyone's opinion on either a watch captain or go primaris captain?
take the ever sought after Storm Bolter
AND put Bane Bolts in it....
Yo what up I got basically a master crafted storm bolter that deals mortal wounds on 6s, let's go. Pop that +1 to wound stratagem and you got loadsa mortal wounds. Sounds nasty.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: A dumb combo would be the Banebolts on a Storm Bolter, the weapon damage Warlord Trait on the Wrist Grenade Launcher, and a Melta Power Fist. It isn't good at all but can you imagine?
I was crowing about the possibilities inherent in the Chaplain Dreadnaught before I noticed that "heavy bolter" was only on the special-issue ammunition table in my head. It was fun to imagine for a while, though.
Yeah the spear is for sure a solid weapon all around and if you make it your warlord trait weapon both profiles would get the +1 damage making the melee far more reliable for multi wound models. My only problem with that is that the DW are so command point hungry you need to take the lord of hidden knowledge or better yet take a guard detachment and make the company commander your warlord for their superior CP trait.
Eh, I wouldn't think you'd need to go that far. Spend 1 CP to get the Aquila relic to get CP every time your opponent uses a stratagem, and make a Watch Master your warlord so you can change mission tactics for 1 CP instead of 2 and I think you're all set. 13 CP is really hard to use up, even if Deathwatch are really CP hungry.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: A dumb combo would be the Banebolts on a Storm Bolter, the weapon damage Warlord Trait on the Wrist Grenade Launcher, and a Melta Power Fist. It isn't good at all but can you imagine?
I was crowing about the possibilities inherent in the Chaplain Dreadnaught before I noticed that "heavy bolter" was only on the special-issue ammunition table in my head. It was fun to imagine for a while, though.
I dunno teleporting him down and then bringing a 10 man Intercessor/aggressor squad to him with the beacon angelus still sounds tasty.
I might have over done it with my deathwatch purchases as I'm now struggling to get a list that works for what I have. Points run out really quickly. I have the shield captain with a pair of twin las dreads and shooty sqd as firebase, but then a couple of corvuses with kill teams, not to mention the primaris sqds. Trouble is you just can't fit them all in, especially when going 1750pts.
It seems that I either have to take the all or none approach with those vehicles. Either 2 corvuses loaded, or the 2 dreads with other teams coming in via deepstrike.
I might try a mix for a while (1 corvus, 1 dread) but I think this won't be good.
Still have another 20 odd veterans plus terminators and vanvets.
Watched a game last night and I'm hopeful this was done correctly because I can't wait to use it.
Does SIA stack on to the weapon's natural statline or does it replace it?
Dakka Wolf wrote: Watched a game last night and I'm hopeful this was done correctly because I can't wait to use it.
Does SIA stack on to the weapon's natural statline or does it replace it?
Dakka Wolf wrote: Watched a game last night and I'm hopeful this was done correctly because I can't wait to use it.
Does SIA stack on to the weapon's natural statline or does it replace it?
They are no longer weapon profiles but confer modifiers to existing weapon profiles. So yes, they stack.
Yeah the spear is for sure a solid weapon all around and if you make it your warlord trait weapon both profiles would get the +1 damage making the melee far more reliable for multi wound models. My only problem with that is that the DW are so command point hungry you need to take the lord of hidden knowledge or better yet take a guard detachment and make the company commander your warlord for their superior CP trait.
Eh, I wouldn't think you'd need to go that far. Spend 1 CP to get the Aquila relic to get CP every time your opponent uses a stratagem, and make a Watch Master your warlord so you can change mission tactics for 1 CP instead of 2 and I think you're all set. 13 CP is really hard to use up, even if Deathwatch are really CP hungry.
Played a game last night with 2 bats of DW. 13 CP is pretty hard to spend and I was pretty liberal with them (+1 to wound is quite awesome). I had the Lord of Hidden Knowledge, but in the game I got only one CP back. I used 2 relics and 3CP for the Teleportarium. Lord of Hidden Knowledge is ok, since it's also kind of a single CP reroll. I'm gonna try it some more though before I'll decide whether it's really good or not. It's not the end all be all though, 5+ isn't exactly what you'd call reliable and it helps just a little when spending 2/3 CP's on a single strat.
I have a few questions for people with experience playing DW.
Does having a terminator to tank AP0 wounds, outweight being able to use a rhino for transport? I'm a little torn on whether to include the terminators, I really like tanking some ap0 wounds, and also having the emergency teleport back if things go south.
I've luckily bought a heap of storm bolters off ebay, I'm planning on giving all my Vets a SB, and then maybe a frag cannon per squad. Also going to have two SS per squad to help durability. Are we all agreed that storm bolters are the best loadout?
Is it worth taking one missile launcher and heavy bolter for access to the mortal wound strats?
I'm going to get a Leviathan dread and with dual grav flux - the idea being he can clear hordes if needed, but can also wreck armour. I'll also bring a mortis dread with twin las, to fix back and shoot holes in stuff.
What do people thing our best transport options are? I'm a bit torn on the corvus... I'm thinking rhinos might be a better option as easier to hide and can charge another squad etc.
What are people's experience with bikes? I'm like the look of them for grabbing some objectives or tieing up some dangerous units.
SputnikDX wrote: If I can make a prediction, we'll never see a primarily Deathwatch army top competitive.
However, I think rather than Deathwatch with allies, we'll likely see Deathwatch be used as allies. AM Brigade primary force with a Deathwatch Patrol being used as a deep striking elite assassin force. They are not durable as a primary force to not have games end like I mentioned (someone getting tabled turn 3), but basically take the role that Scions have and replace them with a Deathwatch to deep strike some RIDICULOUS fire. I think they'll be a strong element in Imperium lists, especially if Xenos continue to rule.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I did a maths. The green indicates the highest possible damage. All maths are per-weapon and do not factor in rerolls to hit OR wound.
From my findings I came to a few conclusions:
1. Always rapid fire. In all cases, even against a hive tyrant, go for the ammo that is going to get you the most shots every single time. If you are 14" away never use Hellfire when you can use Kraken rounds. If you are 10" away never use Vengeance rounds when you can use Hellfire rounds. If you are in range to rapid fire with Kraken rounds, always use Kraken rounds.
2. The Kraken rounds lose out in almost every category except range, but since rapid firing is so critical I think they'll see the majority of use.
3. Hellfire should be used exclusively on Orks, I think it goes without saying, and anything above T4 should also probably get hit with Hellfire rounds.
4. I think Auto Bolt Rifles are competitive and aren't as bad as people make them. The damage tradeoff is very low considering the extra range and the ability to advance and keep that range. It all depends on the army your facing unfortunately, and I think the regular Bolt Rifles might win out simply due to the lower cost.
I'll be printing this and pinning it to the inside of my Codex.
It's a great analysis, but I'm going for auto bolt rifles on my deep striking FKT just because it gels better with the Aggressors and Inceptor.
I was going to take my second unit as stalker bolt rifle and heavy plasma incinerator (just to give me a camper unit) but the single shot profile doesn't seem worth it compared to the chance of hitting twice when closer.
Had my first game, went up against T'au. My list was pretty goofy but I had a blast. Here's what I learned:
I only had 8 CP. I used 2 CP for Teleportarium and then the rest almost exclusively for re-rolls cuz I was rolling like trash for a few chunks of the game.
Make sure you have some kind of chaff in each unit. Your guys will get killed, so having a few guys with just stock boltgun + chainsword to soak up some damage is good for any squad.
Frag cannons are godlike. Take as much as you can. I'm real peeved that each Deathwatch kit only comes with 1, since I need so much more.
Meltas are a decent substitute for anti-vehicle for Deathwatch. The lack of lascannons hurts, but you can make it up with meltas, since there's lots of ways to get in close and make those meltas count (+1 to wound, ectoclades giving you reroll 1s)
T'au players do get pissed when you take away their marker lights.
Also, most importantly, I did manage to figure out the order of operations for the T'au Markerlight Stratagem vs Target Scramblers for Deathwatch.
Uplinked Markerlight
Use this Stratagem after an enemy unit has been hit by a markerlight fired by a model from your army. Place D3+1 markerlight counters next to that unit instead of only 1.
Targeting Scramblers
Use this Stratagem immediately after a DEATHWATCH unit from your army has been hit by one or more T'AU EMPIRE markerlights. Immediately remove all markerlight counters from that unit.
To me, it seems clear. The additional markerlights do not come after the first markerlight is placed, but come instead of the one markerlight. Meaning you would use your stratagem immediately after the T'au player used his, removing his markerlights.
I’m thinking of running a chaplain Dreadnought as my warlord, for the character status on a tougher platform and to give him the +1 damage warlord trait on an assault cannon.
I was wondering if the Tome of Ectoclades relic was as good as it looked for him though. It says that it applies the mission tactic chosen to all deathwatch in 6”, which suggests to me that it works on everyone, even units that normally wouldn’t get access to tactics like vehicles and Dreadnoughts.
Badablack wrote: I’m thinking of running a chaplain Dreadnought as my warlord, for the character status on a tougher platform and to give him the +1 damage warlord trait on an assault cannon.
I was wondering if the Tome of Ectoclades relic was as good as it looked for him though. It says that it applies the mission tactic chosen to all deathwatch in 6”, which suggests to me that it works on everyone, even units that normally wouldn’t get access to tactics like vehicles and Dreadnoughts.
The relic definitely seems to do that, RAW. Not sure about RAI.
Badablack wrote: I’m thinking of running a chaplain Dreadnought as my warlord, for the character status on a tougher platform and to give him the +1 damage warlord trait on an assault cannon.
I was wondering if the Tome of Ectoclades relic was as good as it looked for him though. It says that it applies the mission tactic chosen to all deathwatch in 6”, which suggests to me that it works on everyone, even units that normally wouldn’t get access to tactics like vehicles and Dreadnoughts.
The relic definitely seems to do that, RAW. Not sure about RAI.
It implies that they have to have the Mission Tactics rule in the first place, but my codex hasn't even shipped yet so don't bother listening to me.
bullyboy wrote: It's a great analysis, but I'm going for auto bolt rifles on my deep striking FKT just because it gels better with the Aggressors and Inceptor.
I was going to take my second unit as stalker bolt rifle and heavy plasma incinerator (just to give me a camper unit) but the single shot profile doesn't seem worth it compared to the chance of hitting twice when closer.
I think my main force will be Intercessors with Bolt Rifles.
Natural -1 AP and 30 inch range is proving my favourite so far, adding SIA it's just so flexible -
Max range of 36" and Rapid Fire at 18' min range is 24' and Rapid Fire at 12'.
Max AP is -3 minimum is -1.
2+ to hit units in cover and negates the cover save.
2+ to wound non-vehicle, non-titanics regardless of toughness and AP -1 to boot.
Not too many models won't suffer some kind of survivability reduction, most will suffer fair whacks of it.
bullyboy wrote: It's a great analysis, but I'm going for auto bolt rifles on my deep striking FKT just because it gels better with the Aggressors and Inceptor.
I was going to take my second unit as stalker bolt rifle and heavy plasma incinerator (just to give me a camper unit) but the single shot profile doesn't seem worth it compared to the chance of hitting twice when closer.
I think my main force will be Intercessors with Bolt Rifles.
Natural -1 AP and 30 inch range is proving my favourite so far, adding SIA it's just so flexible -
Max range of 36" and Rapid Fire at 18' min range is 24' and Rapid Fire at 12'.
Max AP is -3 minimum is -1.
2+ to hit units in cover and negates the cover save.
2+ to wound non-vehicle, non-titanics regardless of toughness and AP -1 to boot.
Not too many models won't suffer some kind of survivability reduction, most will suffer fair whacks of it.
By "negates the cover save" do you mean just the raw -1 AP of the rifle? Cuz Dragonfire doesn't do anything to cover saves unfortunately.
bullyboy wrote: It's a great analysis, but I'm going for auto bolt rifles on my deep striking FKT just because it gels better with the Aggressors and Inceptor.
I was going to take my second unit as stalker bolt rifle and heavy plasma incinerator (just to give me a camper unit) but the single shot profile doesn't seem worth it compared to the chance of hitting twice when closer.
I think my main force will be Intercessors with Bolt Rifles.
Natural -1 AP and 30 inch range is proving my favourite so far, adding SIA it's just so flexible -
Max range of 36" and Rapid Fire at 18' min range is 24' and Rapid Fire at 12'.
Max AP is -3 minimum is -1.
2+ to hit units in cover and negates the cover save.
2+ to wound non-vehicle, non-titanics regardless of toughness and AP -1 to boot.
Not too many models won't suffer some kind of survivability reduction, most will suffer fair whacks of it.
By "negates the cover save" do you mean just the raw -1 AP of the rifle? Cuz Dragonfire doesn't do anything to cover saves unfortunately.
Just the raw -1 AP, wonderful as yet another AP deduction would be I can see people screaming OP when somebody works out how to minimise the Elite Army weakness.
Frag cannons are way too good for 25 points. I'm calling a points increase by September or Chapter Approved. Take 4 of them in a squad. with 8D6 S6 -1 1D shots with +1 to wound (strat) and reroll 1 (mission tactic), that scary genestealer mob would not dare charge you.
Or, you can have 8 S9 -3 2D shots with the same +1 to wound (strat) and reroll 1 (mission tactic). You're wounding T8 on 2 rerolling, whats not to love.I was considering trying this for a major ITC event in my region. I had two practice games with an earlier version of the list with great success vs nids and chaos (who were both testing their event lists).
Militarum Battalion: Catachan
C. Commander
C. Commander
Infantry Squad
Infantry Squad
Infantry Squad
Master of Ordinance
Manticore
Manticore
Manticore
DW Battalion
Watch Master
Librarian w/ Jump pack
Redemptor Dreadnought
Veteran Squad: Watch Sargeant w/ Storm Bolter
Bike w/ Teleport Homer
Terminator THSS
Terminator THSS
Vanguard Vet. w/ 2x Bolt Pistol
Vet with Frag Cannon
Vet with Frag Cannon
Vet with Frag Cannon
Vet with Frag Cannon
Veteran Squad: Watch Sargeant w/ Storm Bolter
Bike w/ Teleport Homer
Terminator THSS
Terminator THSS
Vanguard Vet. w/ 2x Bolt Pistol
Vet with Frag Cannon
Vet with Frag Cannon
Vet with Frag Cannon
Vet with Frag Cannon
Intercessor Squad x5
Totals to 1856 points so I still have ~150 to play around with. It's not a terribly complicated list. Depending on who/what I face I have the option to DS the redemptor, a killteam and maybe the watch master.The tourney rule is no FW units if anyones wondering the lack of FW. I would have brought a leviathan instead of redemptor.
Hrmm...I admit, I've yet to see a DW list in action outside of youttube, but I thought 4 in a unit seemed probable overkill. No one will ever charge you within 8", true, but if you get charged from further away or outside LOS thats a lot of points in a fragile unit.
Side note:
My understanding is you can't DS a killteam with a bike in it due to the Bike keyword.
Could just spamming intercessors work? They handle a lot of threats barring the heaviest armour and are pretty tough to put down for the points. I know there'd be plenty of easy hard counters, but I suspect that 180 power armoured wounds toting a lot of fully re rolling SIA firepower could surprise some lists!
I was more theory crafting tbh. It's be fun if a bunch of marines with bolters would be halfway viable. Can't run this at the moment as I only have one intercessor
Do you not think that the HQs are a bit pricey, badablack? If I could, I'd probably run about 10 kill teams with a couple of watch masters and leave it at that for HQs
I think spamming intercessors with a sprinkling of aggressors and inceptors could work against some lists, in a semi-competitive sort of way.
The firepower SAI can dish out is quite scary, and although intercessors are susceptible to D2 damage, spamming them helps mitigate that because most armies only have so much D2 shots. Of course you will run into the rare army that only has D2 and get destroyed, lol.
I think it might also be possible to go with a DW + RG sort of mixed army, with some elements gaining from the SFTS and -1 to hit, and others from the SAI.
Generally, though, I think a more mixed approach would be best, and allies even better.
Mandragola wrote: Intercessors are fine for screening. The requirement to always have 3 scout squads out front to soak deep strikers is largely gone with the beta reserves rules.
That isn't to say that an IG battalion would be a bad choice, but it's not a "must have".
I personally disagree from experience. The deep strike units that really pose a threat to Primaris are drop plasma. If you don't have the forces available to zone out and push them outside of rapidfire range, they do a lot of harm to your 20+ ppm Intercessor units who don't have easy access to invulns. Likewise, taking mortal wounds from smite (not even smite armies, just a couple of Farseers for example) is better done by a guardsman rather than anything more expensive. These are the biggest weaknesses to going pure DW and they may be able to be overcome with luck and positioning without bringing in allies, but I've found a battalion of cheap crap plugs those weaknesses very quickly. In friendly games, it's not a must have, but I imagine you'll find most forces that include DW on the tournament scene will include that plug and play Guard battalion to plug those holes.
By their stats and the weapons on LR is not bad tbh. It is just their points being waaaaayyyy tooooooo overcosted. Both the droppod and the Landraider
I could see it being worth its price if it had ways around the two biggest issues of Astartes Land Raiders: being silenced by melee touching it, and not benefiting from your mission/chapter/whatever tactics.
Without those, the LR needs bubblewrap to protect it from being rendered useless by a wave serpent flying into it, so it becomes a mess of a unit - it's supposed to be a transport that wants to get close to the enemy to deliver its passengers, but you don't want it to get close since it'll just get tied up and silenced. Sure, it's super durable, but that amounts to nothing whatsoever when its transport job is d
one for a fraction of the price and the damage is so easily rendered useless.
It makes me real sad that the entirety of the tactics section in dakka could honestly be replaced with "bring a battalion of IG."
Mandragola wrote: Intercessors are fine for screening. The requirement to always have 3 scout squads out front to soak deep strikers is largely gone with the beta reserves rules.
That isn't to say that an IG battalion would be a bad choice, but it's not a "must have".
I personally disagree from experience. The deep strike units that really pose a threat to Primaris are drop plasma. If you don't have the forces available to zone out and push them outside of rapidfire range, they do a lot of harm to your 20+ ppm Intercessor units who don't have easy access to invulns. Likewise, taking mortal wounds from smite (not even smite armies, just a couple of Farseers for example) is better done by a guardsman rather than anything more expensive. These are the biggest weaknesses to going pure DW and they may be able to be overcome with luck and positioning without bringing in allies, but I've found a battalion of cheap crap plugs those weaknesses very quickly. In friendly games, it's not a must have, but I imagine you'll find most forces that include DW on the tournament scene will include that plug and play Guard battalion to plug those holes.
By their stats and the weapons on LR is not bad tbh. It is just their points being waaaaayyyy tooooooo overcosted. Both the droppod and the Landraider
I could see it being worth its price if it had ways around the two biggest issues of Astartes Land Raiders: being silenced by melee touching it, and not benefiting from your mission/chapter/whatever tactics.
Without those, the LR needs bubblewrap to protect it from being rendered useless by a wave serpent flying into it, so it becomes a mess of a unit - it's supposed to be a transport that wants to get close to the enemy to deliver its passengers, but you don't want it to get close since it'll just get tied up and silenced. Sure, it's super durable, but that amounts to nothing whatsoever when its transport job is d
one for a fraction of the price and the damage is so easily rendered useless.
It makes me real sad that the entirety of the tactics section in dakka could honestly be replaced with "bring a battalion of IG."
It is definitely a current issue. We should probably all email GW about it, lol. It's too good and not super fun for the game IMO.
DoomMouse wrote: Could just spamming intercessors work? They handle a lot of threats barring the heaviest armour and are pretty tough to put down for the points. I know there'd be plenty of easy hard counters, but I suspect that 180 power armoured wounds toting a lot of fully re rolling SIA firepower could surprise some lists!
DoomMouse wrote: Could just spamming intercessors work? They handle a lot of threats barring the heaviest armour and are pretty tough to put down for the points. I know there'd be plenty of easy hard counters, but I suspect that 180 power armoured wounds toting a lot of fully re rolling SIA firepower could surprise some lists!
I'd be mixing and mashing numbers to get one unit of Intercessors with an Aggressor and that would be the heavy weapon unit of Stalker Bolt Rifles.
The Stalker variant is horrible as it gets very limited use from the different ammo.
If you want something to camp, the Stalker variant for the regular Vets has two shots with AP-1. They're basically Intercessors with less durability but more threat range if that makes sense.
DoomMouse wrote: I was more theory crafting tbh. It's be fun if a bunch of marines with bolters would be halfway viable. Can't run this at the moment as I only have one intercessor
Do you not think that the HQs are a bit pricey, badablack? If I could, I'd probably run about 10 kill teams with a couple of watch masters and leave it at that for HQs
Watch Captains are relatively pricey but they’re 5 power sword attacks. With 3 you have glorious intervention coverage plus overwatch buffs everywhere you might need it. I wouldn’t take more than 1 Watch Master though, he costs a lot more for not much extra over Captains. 6 HQs is mostly about filling out the requirements, though I feel like 18cp is worth it. The IG Battalion can do it too, but those are bodies that won’t really do anything but fill a list. They aren’t hurting anything, they’re just eating all the anti-infantry guns that would have been doing much less to the Primaris.
DoomMouse wrote: Could just spamming intercessors work? They handle a lot of threats barring the heaviest armour and are pretty tough to put down for the points. I know there'd be plenty of easy hard counters, but I suspect that 180 power armoured wounds toting a lot of fully re rolling SIA firepower could surprise some lists!
I'd be mixing and mashing numbers to get one unit of Intercessors with an Aggressor and that would be the heavy weapon unit of Stalker Bolt Rifles.
The Stalker variant is horrible as it gets very limited use from the different ammo.
If you want something to camp, the Stalker variant for the regular Vets has two shots with AP-1. They're basically Intercessors with less durability but more threat range if that makes sense.
I wonder if massed stalker bolter vets might actually be decent for a gun-liney DW army. Being far away and in cover gives the vets some durability, and their firepower is actually quite scary with a watch master around.
They are not as good as storm bolter vets inside 12", but if they last longer and are always in cover, that might be okay?
24" vengeance rounds is actually pretty terrifying, and 36" kraken isn't bad either.
Supplement them with other units that seem like better targets, and i could see them doing some work.
DoomMouse wrote: Could just spamming intercessors work? They handle a lot of threats barring the heaviest armour and are pretty tough to put down for the points. I know there'd be plenty of easy hard counters, but I suspect that 180 power armoured wounds toting a lot of fully re rolling SIA firepower could surprise some lists!
I'd be mixing and mashing numbers to get one unit of Intercessors with an Aggressor and that would be the heavy weapon unit of Stalker Bolt Rifles.
The Stalker variant is horrible as it gets very limited use from the different ammo.
If you want something to camp, the Stalker variant for the regular Vets has two shots with AP-1. They're basically Intercessors with less durability but more threat range if that makes sense.
If it gets you an marine I'd probably be easy pleased but can you put an Aggressor in with the Vets to negate the Heavy Weapon mobility deductions?
DoomMouse wrote: Could just spamming intercessors work? They handle a lot of threats barring the heaviest armour and are pretty tough to put down for the points. I know there'd be plenty of easy hard counters, but I suspect that 180 power armoured wounds toting a lot of fully re rolling SIA firepower could surprise some lists!
I'd be mixing and mashing numbers to get one unit of Intercessors with an Aggressor and that would be the heavy weapon unit of Stalker Bolt Rifles.
The Stalker variant is horrible as it gets very limited use from the different ammo.
If you want something to camp, the Stalker variant for the regular Vets has two shots with AP-1. They're basically Intercessors with less durability but more threat range if that makes sense.
If it gets you an marine I'd probably be easy pleased but can you put an Aggressor in with the Vets to negate the Heavy Weapon mobility deductions?
No, but do I really want to pay 37 points to make 5 shots slightly more accurate?
DoomMouse wrote: Could just spamming intercessors work? They handle a lot of threats barring the heaviest armour and are pretty tough to put down for the points. I know there'd be plenty of easy hard counters, but I suspect that 180 power armoured wounds toting a lot of fully re rolling SIA firepower could surprise some lists!
I'd be mixing and mashing numbers to get one unit of Intercessors with an Aggressor and that would be the heavy weapon unit of Stalker Bolt Rifles.
The Stalker variant is horrible as it gets very limited use from the different ammo.
If you want something to camp, the Stalker variant for the regular Vets has two shots with AP-1. They're basically Intercessors with less durability but more threat range if that makes sense.
If it gets you an marine I'd probably be easy pleased but can you put an Aggressor in with the Vets to negate the Heavy Weapon mobility deductions?
No, but do I really want to pay 37 points to make 5 shots slightly more accurate?
Don't be forgetting that wonderful overwatch and an actual melee capable model.
DoomMouse wrote: Could just spamming intercessors work? They handle a lot of threats barring the heaviest armour and are pretty tough to put down for the points. I know there'd be plenty of easy hard counters, but I suspect that 180 power armoured wounds toting a lot of fully re rolling SIA firepower could surprise some lists!
I'd be mixing and mashing numbers to get one unit of Intercessors with an Aggressor and that would be the heavy weapon unit of Stalker Bolt Rifles.
The Stalker variant is horrible as it gets very limited use from the different ammo.
If you want something to camp, the Stalker variant for the regular Vets has two shots with AP-1. They're basically Intercessors with less durability but more threat range if that makes sense.
If it gets you an marine I'd probably be easy pleased but can you put an Aggressor in with the Vets to negate the Heavy Weapon mobility deductions?
No, but do I really want to pay 37 points to make 5 shots slightly more accurate?
Don't be forgetting that wonderful overwatch and an actual melee capable model.
I think it's less about the effectiveness of aggressors in general than the lack there of of stalker bolt rifles. I think it's pretty clear that the assault intercessors go better with aggressors than the heavy.
DoomMouse wrote: Could just spamming intercessors work? They handle a lot of threats barring the heaviest armour and are pretty tough to put down for the points. I know there'd be plenty of easy hard counters, but I suspect that 180 power armoured wounds toting a lot of fully re rolling SIA firepower could surprise some lists!
I'd be mixing and mashing numbers to get one unit of Intercessors with an Aggressor and that would be the heavy weapon unit of Stalker Bolt Rifles.
The Stalker variant is horrible as it gets very limited use from the different ammo.
If you want something to camp, the Stalker variant for the regular Vets has two shots with AP-1. They're basically Intercessors with less durability but more threat range if that makes sense.
If it gets you an marine I'd probably be easy pleased but can you put an Aggressor in with the Vets to negate the Heavy Weapon mobility deductions?
No, but do I really want to pay 37 points to make 5 shots slightly more accurate?
Don't be forgetting that wonderful overwatch and an actual melee capable model.
For a squad that's going to be standing back and when it falls back won't be able to shoot with those expensive guns you paid for.
So, building and painting my Deathwatch vets, there are a few questions that popped up in the mass of neurons that lives in my cranium...
First, now that the primarusses have landed, are the good old veterans still viable?
Second, when you build a kill team, vets or primaris, do you go for generalist squads, i.e. mostly bolters but with a sprinkling of close combat and heavy weapons, or do you build one or two specialist kill teams that will have specific battlefield roles? I'm thinking something like a squad with a lot of thunder hammers, transported in a blackstar, delivered close to the Big Thing that the opponent has to pummel it to bits....
ChaosDad wrote: So, building and painting my Deathwatch vets, there are a few questions that popped up in the mass of neurons that lives in my cranium...
First, now that the primarusses have landed, are the good old veterans still viable?
Second, when you build a kill team, vets or primaris, do you go for generalist squads, i.e. mostly bolters but with a sprinkling of close combat and heavy weapons, or do you build one or two specialist kill teams that will have specific battlefield roles? I'm thinking something like a squad with a lot of thunder hammers, transported in a blackstar, delivered close to the Big Thing that the opponent has to pummel it to bits....
Thoughts?
I find Veterans still extremely viable. Depending on their build, they have access to cheaper transports, invulns, and have better damage than Primaris. Mine are mostly just saturated SIA using storm bolters, a couple storm shields, a couple frag cannons, and chainswords all over the place.
I find Veterans still extremely viable. Depending on their build, they have access to cheaper transports, invulns, and have better damage than Primaris. Mine are mostly just saturated SIA using storm bolters, a couple storm shields, a couple frag cannons, and chainswords all over the place.
Yeah... the Special Issue Ammo seems to be the best tool for them doesn't it? I quite like the shotguns too...
But I guess i'll have to raid the bits stores to get me some storm bolters...
I currently have a lot of Vets with all kinds of special equipment (by my last count I was up to 3500 points...), but with the bits left in my bits box I want to put together some "basic boys", the storm bolter / chainsword kind of basic so I can run some "barebones" kill teams...
The project I'm slowly building toward is a full watch station's worth of dudes. I have my four captains, now I need to flesh out my 12-16 kill teams... It might take a while...
I had been "sitting on" a mess of the Deathwatch stuff since it hit plastic so now with this release I am getting more serious.
I have started with:
Intercessor Squad:
- Intercessors x5 with Assault (should I really add the grenade launcher?)
- Hellblasters x3 with Assault.
- Inceptor x1 with Assault Bolters. (Fall back and shoot is nice).
- Aggressor x1 with Flamestorm Gauntlets (These guys get a wee bit closer after all, advance move with no penalty is nice)
Veteran Squad:
- Sgt x1 Storm Bolter and Chainsword.
- Veterans x3 Storm Bolter and Chainsword.
- 1 Veteran and Frag Cannon.
- Razorback TAC
My Plans:
Plan on getting my 2 Blackstars together:
- One as vehicle / aircraft hunter
- One as anti-personnel (bombing will be fun).
Intercessor Squad:
- Intercessors x5 with Rapid Fire (should I really add the grenade launcher?) Tempted to go with Stalker for the added range BUT special ammunition AP is maxed out. It makes the Aggressor less of a "tax" this way.
- Hellblasters x4 Heavy.
- Aggressor x1 with Boltstorm Gauntlets. Nice to move with no penalty for heavy weapons. Do not need flamers, if I need them, I am playing wrong, which is also why an Inceptor is pointless.
I have to pick some HQ I know, that can wait since I have those guys together.
I have the Watch Master, Artemis as army specific models.
Some thoughts:
- I have three bikes together that might be fun. Mandatory to outfit them with power weapons?
- I was thinking of having a Veteran squad teleport in which will have a Terminator with them, possibly a Vanguard in it as well.
- Getting Veteran squad with a couple Combi-Flamers for up close work or Stalker boltguns for the other direction (Termi with missiles and use the SB). Ride around in 2xSB Rhino (but then no Terminator).
- Or I could go to a slightly smaller squad and use the Razorback with the TLC for a bit more heavy vehicle/creature punch.
- Thinking another squad like the first Intercessor squad is the way to go.
I will have to think of what to shoot for to get a few more command points in.
The real issue with this army is: it will struggle with facing vehicles hence why some Hellblasters needed to be in there.
T7 vehicles go down *hard* to massed SIA with Malleus doctrine.
For example a 5-man team with storm bolters set for vengeance, jumping out a blackstar with their Watchmaster for rerolls, do an expected 6 damage (7 with the right mission) to a predator. That's very good.
T8 is the main nut to crack imo, and needs dedicated AT to deal with it. But hey, you can leave T7 and below to your basic boys, if you have CP in the bank, freeing your AT to go Russ hunting...
grouchoben wrote: T7 vehicles go down *hard* to massed SIA with Malleus doctrine.
For example a 5-man team with storm bolters, dropping in with their Watchmaster for rerolls, do an expected 6 damage (7 with the right mission) to a predator. That's very good.
T8 is the main nut to crack imo, and needs dedicated AT to deal with it. But hey, you can leave T7 and below to your basic boys, if you have CP in the bank, freeing your AT to go Russ hunting...
Let's see...
20 shots, hitting on 3s rerolling is 160/9 hits. Wounding on 4s is 80/9, with a 5+ save (from Vengeance rounds) is 160/27, or...
5.93 on average.
Now, you ask, what are the odds of one-rounding a Rhino? Let's find out!
1.56%. So not likely to KILL it.
How many Vets with Storm Bolters do we need to one-round it with a 50% chance or greater?
Eight Vets gives us about a 1/3 chance.
Nine gives us a just over 50% chance.
A full ten gives us a whopping 2/3 chance, close to.
Or: you need 3,375 shots to strip off 1 wound from T7 3+. Only rerolls from watchmaster and +1 to wound rolls from gem
So 33,75 shots to kill rhino.
10 vets can kill rhino under watchmaster bubble.
Actually a couple of notable things in there, two of which I emailed them about.
Chaplains and librarians can have storm bolters (and combi weapons) without relying on the index. Didn't really answer my question but the changed the rules so that it doesn't matter.
They confirmed that you can't do the double swap to get relic blades with other guns.( A bit stupid but at least it's answered).
So, anyone give any thoughts on an "all-comers" list of about 2000 pts?
Got to play with Battlescribe and see what formations to shoot for.
I keep hearing about "jumping" out of a Blackstar, would you not have to go to that hover mode and it becomes easier to blast out of the sky? (by one mind, but everything helps or hurts).
I find the biggest issue is a bit like Grey Knights: the points add up in a hurry.
These guys are pretty much defined by their special ammo so i am trying to leverage that all I can.
The storm bolters on troops is the godsend to try to get a fair bit of that out.
Even a 5 man squad shooting some 10 shots at 24" or 20 shots at 12" is nothing to sneeze at (nevermind what ammo you choose at the time).
Any thoughts on how to pretty-up the storm bolters so they look like they have an ammo selector on them?
I suppose I can glue on those little sets of 2 rectangles.
GCS-5 wrote: Frag cannons are way too good for 25 points. I'm calling a points increase by September or Chapter Approved. Take 4 of them in a squad. with 8D6 S6 -1 1D shots with +1 to wound (strat) and reroll 1 (mission tactic), that scary genestealer mob would not dare charge you.
Or, you can have 8 S9 -3 2D shots with the same +1 to wound (strat) and reroll 1 (mission tactic). You're wounding T8 on 2 rerolling, whats not to love.I was considering trying this for a major ITC event in my region. I had two practice games with an earlier version of the list with great success vs nids and chaos (who were both testing their event lists).
Is it any different than S9 -3 D6D shots from four times the range? Yes, you can deep strike frag cannons to get them in kill range, but then you blast one tank and get shot off the board. Frag cannons are one of my favorite weapons but as far as effectiveness goes, you'll get more mileage out of a raven guard devastator squad for less points.
On a note about AV, I ran into a T8 Dreadnought (Might of Heroes) yesterday. It was a casual game, but I really could do nothing about that thing. 3 Frag cannons did some good damage but not enough to kill. Melta sucked because wounding on 4s. I didn't have rerolls at all, and I didn't use my +1 to wound stratagem, which would have helped, and my squad died immediately after.
So: How many frag cannons do you need to kill a T8 model? Do you need to use the stratagem every time? What's the best anti-tank in DW for T8?
GCS-5 wrote: Frag cannons are way too good for 25 points. I'm calling a points increase by September or Chapter Approved. Take 4 of them in a squad. with 8D6 S6 -1 1D shots with +1 to wound (strat) and reroll 1 (mission tactic), that scary genestealer mob would not dare charge you.
Or, you can have 8 S9 -3 2D shots with the same +1 to wound (strat) and reroll 1 (mission tactic). You're wounding T8 on 2 rerolling, whats not to love.I was considering trying this for a major ITC event in my region. I had two practice games with an earlier version of the list with great success vs nids and chaos (who were both testing their event lists).
Is it any different than S9 -3 D6D shots from four times the range? Yes, you can deep strike frag cannons to get them in kill range, but then you blast one tank and get shot off the board. Frag cannons are one of my favorite weapons but as far as effectiveness goes, you'll get more mileage out of a raven guard devastator squad for less points.
On a note about AV, I ran into a T8 Dreadnought (Might of Heroes) yesterday. It was a casual game, but I really could do nothing about that thing. 3 Frag cannons did some good damage but not enough to kill. Melta sucked because wounding on 4s. I didn't have rerolls at all, and I didn't use my +1 to wound stratagem, which would have helped, and my squad died immediately after.
So: How many frag cannons do you need to kill a T8 model? Do you need to use the stratagem every time? What's the best anti-tank in DW for T8?
Well within 12inches you are a damage 2 lascannon so you really shouldn't have an issue taking out t8. I'd think 4 frag cannons would do the job with no buffs and 3 if you had buffs. Hell if you are buffed two could do it.
Mr.T wrote: Or: you need 3,375 shots to strip off 1 wound from T7 3+. Only rerolls from watchmaster and +1 to wound rolls from gem
So 33,75 shots to kill rhino.
10 vets can kill rhino under watchmaster bubble.
I have to say, with the difference in number conventions, this made me do a double take.
Three thousand three hundred seventy five shots to deal one wound to t7 3+?!
GCS-5 wrote: Frag cannons are way too good for 25 points. I'm calling a points increase by September or Chapter Approved. Take 4 of them in a squad. with 8D6 S6 -1 1D shots with +1 to wound (strat) and reroll 1 (mission tactic), that scary genestealer mob would not dare charge you.
Or, you can have 8 S9 -3 2D shots with the same +1 to wound (strat) and reroll 1 (mission tactic). You're wounding T8 on 2 rerolling, whats not to love.I was considering trying this for a major ITC event in my region. I had two practice games with an earlier version of the list with great success vs nids and chaos (who were both testing their event lists).
Is it any different than S9 -3 D6D shots from four times the range? Yes, you can deep strike frag cannons to get them in kill range, but then you blast one tank and get shot off the board. Frag cannons are one of my favorite weapons but as far as effectiveness goes, you'll get more mileage out of a raven guard devastator squad for less points.
On a note about AV, I ran into a T8 Dreadnought (Might of Heroes) yesterday. It was a casual game, but I really could do nothing about that thing. 3 Frag cannons did some good damage but not enough to kill. Melta sucked because wounding on 4s. I didn't have rerolls at all, and I didn't use my +1 to wound stratagem, which would have helped, and my squad died immediately after.
So: How many frag cannons do you need to kill a T8 model? Do you need to use the stratagem every time? What's the best anti-tank in DW for T8?
Well within 12inches you are a damage 2 lascannon so you really shouldn't have an issue taking out t8. I'd think 4 frag cannons would do the job with no buffs and 3 if you had buffs. Hell if you are buffed two could do it.
3 frag cannons deal 4 wounds to T5-8, 3+ armor. With the proper mission tactic (heavy support, so basically requiring Tome of the Ectoclades and a nearby HQ) it becomes 5 wounds (average, so realistically 4). Captain means 6. Watch Master squeaks it to just under 50% chance to deal 8. 2 CP for +1 to wound gives me high chance to deal 8 wounds. I only kill a Russ 14% of the time, with Deep Strike, Watch Master, and 3 frag cannons. 4 frag cannons does the job - at an absolute bare minimum of 180 points + Watch Master and 2 CP - but I am still 12" away from his force, who can move and get into rapid fire range. I am probably dead.
I think frag cannons are amazing at a lot of things and they're still one of my favorite weapons in all of 8th edition, but I do not think they're the answer for hardcore tanks, so I'm trying to figure out what that answer is.
So with the new FAQ up, what are some of the other issues people are seeing that weren't addressed? I'm glad they clarified the AGL on Intercessor squads, but I'm wondering what other issues you guys want to see clarified or 'fixed'.
NickTheButcher wrote: So with the new FAQ up, what are some of the other issues people are seeing that weren't addressed? I'm glad they clarified the AGL on Intercessor squads, but I'm wondering what other issues you guys want to see clarified or 'fixed'.
/cheers!
Does Tome of the Ectoclades give the mission tactic to all DEATHWATCH units, not just those eligible for the mission tactic to begin with?
Does Targeting Scramblers occur after a T'au player has used their Markerlight stratagem? (I believe the answer is yes, but clarification would help quell arguments.)
bullyboy wrote: surprised they reverted back to the old Inferno Halo launcher rules
The index rule was reroll saves of 1. This new one is... different. I guess it's good against aeldari, but with most ITC rules forbidding you from doing list tailoring it seems odd. I guess I'd rather have it than not, but the old one gave you a solid boost to your defenses 100% of the time, but now you just really shut down units that can fly and otherwise waste 5 points.
Hey guys, I think we really need to go hard and e-mail the FAQ team to address the Dedicated Transports issue. It's ridiculous playing our local DE player and not getting to use Mission Tactics or a decent chunk of the Stratagems until turn 2/3. It'll take less than five minutes of your time and could lead to a major QoL improvement for the army.
NickTheButcher wrote: So with the new FAQ up, what are some of the other issues people are seeing that weren't addressed? I'm glad they clarified the AGL on Intercessor squads, but I'm wondering what other issues you guys want to see clarified or 'fixed'.
/cheers!
I don't think they addressed the Dominus Aegis issue on the first turn. How mission tactics and doctrines work when targeting dedicated transports still needs clarification ruleswise as well.
Secondary to that I've always wanted an explanation as to why marine vehicles don't benefit from whatever the army's chapter/mission tactic is whether they're codex marines or special flavouring.
So I'm learning fairly quickly that it's easier than I expected to fill out a double Battalion with Deathwatch. There isn't really a troop tax like I feel there is for vanilla marines, where scouts are really there just to deny deep strike and fill battalions. 2x Intercessors and 2x Stalker Veterans cost you only 400 points and get you a very lethal, surprisingly sturdy basis for the rest of your army.
What are your thoughts on the HQs? I really like Watch Masters but I only have one of them unfortunately. Do you think it would be easy to kitbash one using a guardian spear bit from a Custodes?
Yes, but considering the meat and potatoes of Deathwatch is big killy Troop choices, it's implied you'd take some cool ones on top of your base 4. The point is that you can, bare minimum, spend 600 points + HQs to get two Battalions (so probably all around under 1000), and I do not think those points are a tax considering how effective Stalker Boltguns and SIA Bolt Rifles are.
Edit: How about that. Watch Captain with Thunder Hammer + Storm Bolter is 100 points. Librarian with Force Sword + Storm Bolter is 100 points. 500 points per Battalion, and they're not slouches either.
The HQs seem like the weak links in the double battillions. I can see wanting 2 watch masters, and then I guess a jump pack librarian and jump pack captain might be the best options to get to 4?
I think Master, Libby, and 2 Captains will be what I go with. Master midfield, one Deep Striking Captain (probably can swap with the Master on a case by case), one Jump Pack libby with the Tome handing out buffs, and one Captain to babysit the snipers.
jcd386 wrote: The HQs seem like the weak links in the double battillions. I can see wanting 2 watch masters, and then I guess a jump pack librarian and jump pack captain might be the best options to get to 4?
This has been my issue with double BN DW. The HQ's are the tax and you dont get much benefit bringing more than one of each. I suppose you could bring one Chaplain Dread along as well, but at that point you're at 1200ish points for the two battalions and still havent properly addressed your anti horde and anti tank needs. Each proper kill team dedicated for the anti horde role is 2-300 points which means you've got anywhere between 2-400 points to bring AT. The Intercessors and stalker teams in the backfield are nice, but even with SIA they're not providing enough volume of fire for their points. You really need to be shoving frag cannons and rapid fire storm bolter vets or aggressors down your opponent's throat to do the damage you need. I think if you're looking at being at all competitive. you need to just suck it up and bring the AM BN rather than try to make multi BN DW work.
I also think taking double DW BN is a mistake because it forces you to MSU. DW's army design encourages taking large squads. You need to make the absolute most of your +1 to wound strats and 5 man squads just don't cut it for that purpose. Durability that comes from the larger squads is also a major factor, 4 storm shields with 4 frag cannons is a really hard nut to crack unless your opponent pours a massive amount of garbage shots into them (which they shouldnt be getting because the frag cannons should have killed a ton of the chaff), but the things that normally would delete a power armored squad, like plasma, are pretty much reduced to bolters that wound on 3's.
As far as anecdotal experience goes. so far my 2k list of 1x Cadian BN, 1x Scion BN, 1x DW BN has worked great. My pure DW games post-codex have also been wins, but both of them were extremely close. One of them came down to literally the last roll of the game where I made a 10" charge to kill the last model on the board for a table win. If I hadn't made it in, the game would have ended in a win for him on score.
Yeah it definitely seems like one DW battillion is the way to go, and then ally in one or two other army's MVP units. Though it really seems like that's how all imperium armies are nowadays. I've been toying around with building a DW + BA + RG list with all the Marines I have laying around. It's not the best thing in the world, but at least when you cherry pick the good units out of each book Marines actually start feeling like Marines again, lol.
Well, with double battalion you can more easily spam the +1 to wound strat. That'll make the SIA useful against harder targets and saves you having to spend on AT stuff (wounding on 4+ isn't bad). Some hellblasters and bolt rifles firing Vengeance rounds at +1 to wound hurts I've found. Also you can use the mortal wound strategems more freely. All the bolters/bolt rifles from you other dudes are pretty good anti horde, especially with some aggressors sprinkled around...or frag cannons. 13 CP is pretty hard to spend, so you can really go crazy (or at least not hold back).
I use 2 batts with 1 watch master, 1 Termy Libby, 2 captains with jump packs (1 double LC, 1 TH/SB). One battalion is as basic as it gets, 3 units of intercessors. The other one has 2 units of intercessors with 2 hellblasters and a plasma inceptor and one unit intercessors with 4 aggressors and a bolter inceptor. In addition I have 2 dreadnoughts, one AT with TLLC/ML and a Redemptor.
Makes it surprisingly mobile with the Teleportarium and Beacon.
I need some more experience with it, but so far they do ok. Tonight I'll try 'em out again. So I'm not saying its the end all be all, but the double battalion does work for me personally. The TH/SB captain dishes some damage in cc or shooting. I gave him banebolts as well, that's 8 damage that has a high chance to hit and possibly wound.
I had another game, and ran into an interesting conundrum. My main troops were stalker boltgun vets and bolt rifle intercessors. Stalkers spit good fire, intercessors take points. The problem was mobility - without repulsors, intercessors just can't get up the board fast enough to get onto objectives. And, the conundrum, stalker vets don't want to move, but they also are terrible at holding backfield objectives since they just melt so much easier than intercessors - I even had them in cover.
Maybe I should take 10 man stalker/biker squads and combat squad them to get 5 zoomy objective secured models? Or maybe the repulsor is worth it? Or instead of deep striking close range models aggressively, I should deep strike sturdy long ranged troops onto points and hold them?
Sloeberjong wrote: Well, with double battalion you can more easily spam the +1 to wound strat. That'll make the SIA useful against harder targets and saves you having to spend on AT stuff (wounding on 4+ isn't bad). Some hellblasters and bolt rifles firing Vengeance rounds at +1 to wound hurts I've found. Also you can use the mortal wound strategems more freely. All the bolters/bolt rifles from you other dudes are pretty good anti horde, especially with some aggressors sprinkled around...or frag cannons. 13 CP is pretty hard to spend, so you can really go crazy (or at least not hold back).
You can also get a much stronger list by dropping one of the extra Captains and a 5 man Intercessor squad for a Guard CP battery. Every Bolter that shoots at a Guardsmen is one less opportunity for you to fail a 3+ save on a DW model plus CP Regen is far better since you roll per CP rather than per strat and DW strats often use more than one CP.
Obviously DW do better with more CP and getting multiple battalions is a good thing. The issue is paying a bunch of points for units you don't want/need in order to get a double DW BN. On top of that, not needing to run 6 DW min sized troops means you can actually get the most out of +1 to wound strat since you can afford to consolidate them into larger squads.
Primark G wrote: The farm is probably going to get nerfed hard soon enough. I would just move on instead.
September is the next balance pass and they made the CP battery even better with the last one. No point gimping yourself for the next 3 months on the off chance it might get changed.
If a guard cp nerf happens along with a move to 1750 as standard, then you can forget about competitive DW anyway so you might as well enjoy being solid mid/upper mid tier while it lasts.
Even still, I would say a BA scout BN + DW BN is far more useful than 2x DW BN. At least the BA BN plugs the board control and psyker defense gaps.
Ok so I have a 1k tournament at the end of the month and I'm using pure deathwatch for fun. I also don't own any AM and don't want to.. That being said I made this list and wanted to discuss how to use it effectively. I'm probably not going to change it because my collection is limited at this time. however using it to its fullest is my goal.
The vet squad and watch master are going to DS turn two and blast apart what they can. At 12" the frag cannons are assault 2 lascannons 2 dmg each, the heavy bolter will use the d3 mortal wound strat and the stormbolters and watch master will use SIA according to what they are shooting. I would pop whichever strategem needed for +1 to wound rolls. vengeance for vehicles and heavy armor troops or hellfire for monsters and lighter infantry. Most units would be foolish to charge it because of overwatch, unless they pulled off a charge outside of 8" or LOS, they would eat 7d6 autohits @S5/S6 -1 AP. The terminators shoot at whatever I need them to and help me pass morale automatically. I can pop tempest shell strat and If watch master eventually gets into range he can pop clavis all for mortal wounds against whichever vehicle I need to maim.
The intercessor would move toward objectives and fire SIA according to what was most right for the job with the primaris captain supporting. Thoughts?
I'm running claw and grav or cyclonic because that's what I have (and claw purely for the looks)
veil of time terminator librarian dropping in with it has proven a great idea, especially combo'd with might of heroes making the thing T9 with 4 attacks. Armor of contempt stratagem is not to be overlooked either, especially against armies that have a lot of ways of dealing MWs (getting a save vs DE/clowns haywire blasters makes for sad opponents).
drop in, to serious damage to a single target or a few targets with melta/grav, get a decent charge chance with VoT, rip and tear whatever didn't melt, get stuck in and absorb a ton of shooting the next turn.
I'm running claw and grav or cyclonic because that's what I have (and claw purely for the looks)
veil of time terminator librarian dropping in with it has proven a great idea, especially combo'd with might of heroes making the thing T9 with 4 attacks. Armor of contempt stratagem is not to be overlooked either, especially against armies that have a lot of ways of dealing MWs (getting a save vs DE/clowns haywire blasters makes for sad opponents).
drop in, to serious damage to a single target or a few targets with melta/grav, get a decent charge chance with VoT, rip and tear whatever didn't melt, get stuck in and absorb a ton of shooting the next turn.
I was thinking more in terms of the dakka version, assault LD just dont seem that great with 4A each.
I’m thinking about taking a Plasma Obliterator with a 10-man Primaris team in it. Deploy it at the edge of the deployment zone, and with advances you’ve got a good 10-15” of movement in any direction. They can hunker down and pop off assault shots til needed then jump out and open up when needed, and the building itself is a huge bullet sink that doesn’t care about damage. The actual damage it does plugs in a gap in Deathwatch shooting.
what are the thoughts on close combat squads and delivery methods?
I'm currently entertaining the idea of a squad with a blackshield and watch sergeant with thunder hammers, and possibly a heavy TH or two in there with a few bodies for padding
WindstormSCR wrote: what are the thoughts on close combat squads and delivery methods?
I'm currently entertaining the idea of a squad with a blackshield and watch sergeant with thunder hammers, and possibly a heavy TH or two in there with a few bodies for padding
You might need someone take SS to tank AP-2/3 attacks and sone chaff with only chainsword to eat AP-0/1 attacks. Plus your killy dudes with TH. HTH rarely worth it given the restriction on 2A guys only. Also, one biker in there is better.
I'm not convinced there is any need to take cc vets. Arming them with storm bolters and a couple of frag cannons is about the same price but more effective at short range. You can deep strike them instead of investing a Corvus or transport like you would need for a cc squad.
Even the most shooty armies can be improved with a fast cc unit if they have the option for it. Lots of nasty stuff has defenses like -1’s to hit and invulns against ranged stuff but nothing to protect them from a hammer to the face. The new knights can get 3++’s against shooting for a turn, forget wasting any antitank on that.
I've run 3++ knights for some time now (Atropos has native 4++ vs shooting). Weight of fire is what brings them down, as per usual, along with mortal wounds. So I'm going to try and figure out what an Osseus-WM leading a 10man dakka vet squad, jumping out of a corvus, could do to my Atropos...
Luckily DW is pimped out in terms of dakka. I think Osseus Key Watchmaster is going to become well favoured if we see a knight meta, as he unlocks 2d3 mortal wounds against a knight (with clavis strat) and gives them a nasty -1 to hit on the strikeback. Good use of doctrines and missions will help.
8 stormbolters and 2 fragcannons with doctrine will drop 6.7 damage on a 3++ knight; tempest, osseus and clavis will do another 6MW, your blackstar dropping into hover mode (with ACs, HB & SML) will chip in around 3. Your watchmaster will do one more with his spear in CC.
That means you've hit the knight with 16.7 damage in one round, and burned 4CPs, with your veterans, watch master and corvus. Due to the two strats & the relic, your watchmaster has personally done 7 damage to that knight! That's with 618pts spent on troops, an HQ and a transport. Very respectable.
The rest of your list should be able to drop 11 more wounds on the target in the same round, and drop that 555pt monster to its knees! Failing that, the 3++ knight should be fully degraded, and at -1 to hit, so hitting on 5s, probably 6s, thanks to the Osseus Key.
Badablack wrote: Even the most shooty armies can be improved with a fast cc unit if they have the option for it. Lots of nasty stuff has defenses like -1’s to hit and invulns against ranged stuff but nothing to protect them from a hammer to the face. The new knights can get 3++’s against shooting for a turn, forget wasting any antitank on that.
Almost all -1 to hit is from outside 12" so that's not an issue for your dakka vets. Because your dakka vets don't need a transport and are more effective I still can't see the need for cc vets. The stats and price of a cc vet just isn't that good. You're probably better off going with allies (BA in particular) or a single model like a TH jump watch captain or a cc dread.
What are your thoughts on the HQs? I really like Watch Masters but I only have one of them unfortunately. Do you think it would be easy to kitbash one using a guardian spear bit from a Custodes?
I built my Master with a halberd from the Grey Knight range. Clipped the barb off the back side for a flat space to glue a boltgun that had the grip shaved off.
What are your thoughts on the HQs? I really like Watch Masters but I only have one of them unfortunately. Do you think it would be easy to kitbash one using a guardian spear bit from a Custodes?
I built my Master with a halberd from the Grey Knight range. Clipped the barb off the back side for a flat space to glue a boltgun that had the grip shaved off.
My WIP watch master. I kitbashed mine with Artemis, a blood angel head and guardian spear.
Badablack wrote: Even the most shooty armies can be improved with a fast cc unit if they have the option for it. Lots of nasty stuff has defenses like -1’s to hit and invulns against ranged stuff but nothing to protect them from a hammer to the face. The new knights can get 3++’s against shooting for a turn, forget wasting any antitank on that.
Almost all -1 to hit is from outside 12" so that's not an issue for your dakka vets. Because your dakka vets don't need a transport and are more effective I still can't see the need for cc vets. The stats and price of a cc vet just isn't that good. You're probably better off going with allies (BA in particular) or a single model like a TH jump watch captain or a cc dread.
That is not the case for most Xeno races. iirc Dark Eldar and Harlequin have army wide -1 to hit against shooting and inv saves on their transports no matter ranges. Necron Tombblade is also a flat -1 to hit as well. Tyranids, when under the buff of Venomthrope, also get -1 to hit against shooting no matter range.
The Dark Eldar and Harlequin are the most disgusting cases, because if you cannot kill that transport before shooting phase ended, it will be already too late for you to inflict any meaningful damage because you cannot hurt the passengers inside. So they always tgave the upperhand in the battle.
That may be true but I can guarantee that you aren't going to be charging a venom with your melee vets.
There is no good way to get melee vets into combat. None. There is a good way to get dakka vets into range (deep strike). Venoms having -1 to hit doesn't change that.
Primark G wrote: The farm is probably going to get nerfed hard soon enough. I would just move on instead.
September is the next balance pass and they made the CP battery even better with the last one. No point gimping yourself for the next 3 months on the off chance it might get changed.
If a guard cp nerf happens along with a move to 1750 as standard, then you can forget about competitive DW anyway so you might as well enjoy being solid mid/upper mid tier while it lasts.
Even still, I would say a BA scout BN + DW BN is far more useful than 2x DW BN. At least the BA BN plugs the board control and psyker defense gaps.
I really hope GW doesn’t nerf all the mid tier armies while leaving the top essentially untouched to appease this idiotic demand for faction purity. I’m sure they will because it’s just getting louder but honestly it’s like expecting orks to not take Boyz.
Primark G wrote: The farm is probably going to get nerfed hard soon enough. I would just move on instead.
September is the next balance pass and they made the CP battery even better with the last one. No point gimping yourself for the next 3 months on the off chance it might get changed.
If a guard cp nerf happens along with a move to 1750 as standard, then you can forget about competitive DW anyway so you might as well enjoy being solid mid/upper mid tier while it lasts.
Even still, I would say a BA scout BN + DW BN is far more useful than 2x DW BN. At least the BA BN plugs the board control and psyker defense gaps.
I really hope GW doesn’t nerf all the mid tier armies while leaving the top essentially untouched to appease this idiotic demand for faction purity. I’m sure they will because it’s just getting louder but honestly it’s like expecting orks to not take Boyz.
If the Guard CP battery gets hammered, competitive 8th turns into which flavor of Eldar you'd like to play with maybe some Chaos tacked on. I would say that the Knight Codex has me hopeful a battery nerf is not imminent. As it's very plain by the fact that Knights generate so few CPs organically because of the Knight Lance rule and have so many expensive strats that the army was designed with VP batteries in mind.
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saint_red wrote: That may be true but I can guarantee that you aren't going to be charging a venom with your melee vets.
There is no good way to get melee vets into combat. None. There is a good way to get dakka vets into range (deep strike). Venoms having -1 to hit doesn't change that.
I'd argue the Corvus is a good way to deliver a melee kill team, but it's better used to deliver 4x frag cannons anyway, which incidentally also give zero feths about hit modifiers. The real issue is that a fully loaded melee kill team is comically expensive and dead in the water if it somehow manages to eliminate it's target, since the Corvus that brought them in is almost assuredly dead. At least the frag cannons can threaten out to 15-21" with frag and 24"-30" with slugs.
I'm seeing a good amount of variety in the Imperium now. They're combinations of familiar things, but its definitely not locked in. The little Guard battalion is probably the most consistent piece of the puzzle, but that's just because they're the only way Imperium has access to the kind of cheap troops available to everyone else. If they were in the space marine codex, no one would complain; just as no one complains about the 6 units of Rangers or Strike Squad you see in battalions of Eldar and Tau.
Primark G wrote: IG farm cranks out the most CPs of any army - fact.
Oh...k?
That's mostly only a result of the Company Commanders being crazy cheap HQs. Other farms churn out similar CP but have to pay more for their HQs. They do often get HQs that are more impactful on the rest of the list though. That said, I think The Grand Strategist/Aquila combo pushes the value of a commander over the top and Primaris Psykers do way way too much for their cost. I'm not sure what to do about the latter, but Grand Strategist feels like it should go to max 1 CP refund like the rest of its ilk and you'd not see me shed a tear if the Aquila was removed completely. The Cheap battalion itself though is pretty much a feature of every army out Imperium or otherwise. Imperium is just the only place where historical divisions in the product line left that tool in another book.
Primark G wrote: It is less than 200 points for the detachment. Say again?
I assume you mean that nothing else kicks out a battalion that cheap? As I said, that has more to do with the cost of the HQs.
It's worth noting that the second battalion requirements for an Imperium list probably doesn't get to be anywhere near as cheap as the first; both in terms of HQs and most definitely in terms of troops. I'd actually be curious to see the average total cost of the 4 HQ/6 Troops between Imperial lists with guard and top tier lists from other factions.
My preferred fix to the CP batter is to raise the cost of Guardsmen.
On the topic of Deathwatch...
The deathwatch buffs seem to really, really help out intercessors. Has anyone tried a board control list based on lots of intercessors. Or can someone tell me why that is a bad idea?
I’ve run a 9 intercessor squad army list a few times and it did pretty well. Having a ton of relatively tough scoring units that can all reach out 36” means you never have guns going to waste.
I run 3 intercessor squads with assault bolters and 1 aggressor/inceptor, 1 with 5 hellblasters, and 3 bare 5-mans with bolt rifles. They chew stuff up surprisingly well with some antitank support.
Primark G wrote: It is less than 200 points for the detachment. Say again?
I'm up to 12 games post Codex release, and the biggest takeaway so far is that DW need a minimum of 13 CP and preferably even more to function. You can't get to 13 CP in a pure DW army without gutting the list of any power since you have so many points locked up in expensive HQs/Troops. Looking at a minimum of 400 points on HQ's alone in double DW BN.
The guard CP battery is a necessary evil to stay even remotely on par with Eldar/DE, without it, DW and pretty much every power armored imperium sub faction goes to garbage tier overnight. Though I suppose Guard could limp along with silly gimmicks like 13 Hellhounds.
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tag8833 wrote: My preferred fix to the CP batter is to raise the cost of Guardsmen.
On the topic of Deathwatch...
The deathwatch buffs seem to really, really help out intercessors. Has anyone tried a board control list based on lots of intercessors. Or can someone tell me why that is a bad idea?
Your preferred fix just screws guard players over without actually changing anything. 5ppm and you raise the CP battery a mere 30 points while severely harming infantry guard armies, adding as much as 180 points to some mono guard lists. 6-7PPM and you've pretty much killed the army competitively, not that mono guard has done well in tournaments lately outside of gimmicks like 13 Hellhounds.
I'm working on my new Deathwatch army atm, slowly getting off the proxy-addiction and into a fully fledged black-and-silver army, and this is the first list I'm building towards. I'd appreciate your opinions, especially in light of the current discussion concerning CPs and the viability of double-batallion DW. It's not meant to be high-end competitive, but I will want to take it down the local club and stand a reasonable chance against competent players...
The idea here is to drop the three librarians in for a +2 free Nullzone cast with Empyric Channeling, drops smites everywhere and provide denial & Psychic fortress to try and protect my expensive vets. Rip targets up with 3 fragcannons and 15 storm bolters. Watchmaster threatens big vehicle targets with the Osseus/Clavis double whammy and -1 to hit. One intercessor squad deepstrikes with hellblasters; the other two plink away; beacon angelis for backup or shenanigans. Fliers are there to damage heavy targets and thin hordes. 6 drops; 12CPs on turn 1 (14, -1 for 2nd relic, -1 for teleport strat):
++ Battalion 1 Detachment ++
- 2x Librarian Force axe, Storm Bolter
- Intercessors 5x Auto Bolt Rifle
- Intercessors 5x Bolt rifles
- Intercessors 5 x Bolt rifles 4 x Plasma Incinerators
++ Battalion 2 Detachment ++
Librarian: Force axe, Storm Bolter, The Beacon Angelis
Watch Master: Lord of Hidden Knowledge, Osseus Key, Warlord
Mind telling me how raising their cost to 5ppm would actually do anything other than feth over guard players while doing nothing to Custodes and the other imperium factions who only lose 30 points on the CP battery? Or maybe you think they should cost 6 ppm, and be equal cost to Ork Boyz, who are effectively immune to morale and S4/T4.
For additional points of reference, Termagants are 4ppm, have a roughly equal gun, a slightly worse save, and are immune to morale unless the Tyranid player screwed up or is already losing badly. Cultists are also 4ppm, but you can take them in groups of 40, and the bastards can come back to full strength from a single model and can start 3" from you turn one.
You want to raise the price of Guardsmen, then you'd better bring back the old summary execution rule because even now, pure guard lists are pretty underwhelming in a competitive environment.
If I didn't know you played Imperium I'd think you had a raging boner for making the Eldar the unopposed Kings of 8th Ed.
Looks solid for what you're going for. Semi competitive pure DW. I personally would run more frag cannons as they become a more potent threat the more concentrated there are since 4 frag cannons with the +1 to wound strat is terrifying.
Feel like even with a Xiphon, your AT is very thin. You're one 11 wound flier away from losing most of your AT power. 4 Hellblasters and a WM are just not enough, though maybe spamming mortals with the three librarians will pick up some of the slack.
Mind telling me how raising their cost to 5ppm would actually do anything other than feth over guard players while doing nothing to Custodes and the other imperium factions who only lose 30 points on the CP battery? Or maybe you think they should cost 6 ppm, and be equal cost to Ork Boyz, who are effectively immune to morale and S4/T4.
For additional points of reference, Termagants are 4ppm, have a roughly equal gun, a slightly worse save, and are immune to morale unless the Tyranid player screwed up or is already losing badly. Cultists are also 4ppm, but you can take them in groups of 40, and the bastards can come back to full strength from a single model and can start 3" from you turn one.
You want to raise the price of Guardsmen, then you'd better bring back the old summary execution rule because even now, pure guard lists are pretty underwhelming in a competitive environment.
If I didn't know you played Imperium I'd think you had a raging boner for making the Eldar the unopposed Kings of 8th Ed.
Looks solid for what you're going for. Semi competitive pure DW. I personally would run more frag cannons as they become a more potent threat the more concentrated there are since 4 frag cannons with the +1 to wound strat is terrifying.
Feel like even with a Xiphon, your AT is very thin. You're one 11 wound flier away from losing most of your AT power. 4 Hellblasters and a WM are just not enough, though maybe spamming mortals with the three librarians will pick up some of the slack.
I personally think the cost of the Commander should change, rather than the squad, but, that’s a different discussion altogether.
I’ve been toying with running more Primaris units as a 1000 point battalion, supporting something else. Small model and unit count, but, I still think it has the ability to play missions really well.
tag8833 wrote: My preferred fix to the CP batter is to raise the cost of Guardsmen.
On the topic of Deathwatch...
The deathwatch buffs seem to really, really help out intercessors. Has anyone tried a board control list based on lots of intercessors. Or can someone tell me why that is a bad idea?
Then might just as well remove monoguard from the game. Thanks a lot banning my army
Thanks Rogue. Yeah, AT is a problem in the list I suppose, I'll see what I can do. But of course, as you probably know, there's very little wiggle room in a double batallion DW list. I do have a Venator in the painting queue, and could deepstrike more killteams and drop a Corvus. I run Krieg a lot, so have lots of options in terms of Basilisks, Melta-Grenadiers, Russ Conquerers, etc, but as you say, pure DW is the aim. T8 targets is the problem.
tag8833 wrote: My preferred fix to the CP batter is to raise the cost of Guardsmen.
On the topic of Deathwatch...
The deathwatch buffs seem to really, really help out intercessors. Has anyone tried a board control list based on lots of intercessors. Or can someone tell me why that is a bad idea?
Then might just as well remove monoguard from the game. Thanks a lot banning my army
An increase in cost on guardsmen would hurt monoguard more, you're right, but I don't think it completely invalidates the army. That's a bit sensationalist, don't you think?
What's important to note is that a change to guardsmen would not impact folks like me that use the tried and true, plug and play AMCP battery battalion. I'll just have to trim from my main force. Grand Strategist and Kurov's are the reason I choose Guard over any other chaff.
I honestly do not understand why there's so much hate for AM being part of most marine lists. Honestly, I'd be okay with a change to Grand Strategist so it acts like all the other CP recovering traits, and something - anything, really - to make Kurov's less enticing as a combo with GS. But that won't change the fact that Guard (or admech) fills a role that mono-marine armies can't do on their own very efficiently.
I play pure BA and am looking at getting some Primaris, it seems to be that you DW guys have the most fun putting Primaris squads together so I have thought it might be time to slurp a little soup and mix some DW into my BA force.
I only ever play casual games and my lists are generally TAC, oppo is normally Necron or Eldar.
So, what do you suggest I put together if I want to put an smattering of DW in my force, really want to get some of that cool Primaris Hellblaster dakka in there.
I don't want these guys to be moving anywhere much, my BA have more than enough guys who can run around, I need some reasonable firepower to sit back and hold on when the inevitable rush comes to me.
I play pure BA and am looking at getting some Primaris, it seems to be that you DW guys have the most fun putting Primaris squads together so I have thought it might be time to slurp a little soup and mix some DW into my BA force.
I only ever play casual games and my lists are generally TAC, oppo is normally Necron or Eldar.
So, what do you suggest I put together if I want to put an smattering of DW in my force, really want to get some of that cool Primaris Hellblaster dakka in there.
I don't want these guys to be moving anywhere much, my BA have more than enough guys who can run around, I need some reasonable firepower to sit back and hold on when the inevitable rush comes to me.
Cheers!
I'm personally of the mind that you include DW for what unique things they can bring, so I always try and maximize that. This means things like mixed units adding extra ablative wounds, Doctrine strats (which work best on large units), and special issue ammunition alongside mission tactics, both of which combine to make them dangerous to a wide range of targets from range. For Fortis Kill Teams, you're getting powerful SIA, great mobility if you want it, fall back and shoot if you want it, and ablative wounds for things you want to try and protect. What they don't have are cheap transport or easy access to invulns.
Two of my favourite builds I've used:
5 Intercessors with auto bolt rifles and 1 aux grenade launcher
4 Aggressors with boltstorm gauntlets
1 Inceptor with auto bolters
Or...
5 Intercessors with bolt rifles and 1 aux grenade launcher
4 Hellblasters with rapid fire incinerators
1 Inceptor with plasma
The first is T5 and gives you lots of mobility and ablative wounds for Aggressors, a unit that famously loves to die before it gets to double shoot. It's also protected from having a transport fly into you to silence them and they do a pretty decent job of punching if they need to. I use them to move forward fast and get into cover so they can dakka the hell out of screens and hold an objective. You can drop the points and up the SIA sources by dropping the Aggressors to 1, but then you lose T5 and the chance at double shooting. I mention it because its fun, but you probably don't want this build.
The second solves two of the biggest issues with Hellblasters - being silenced when a trash transport drives into them, and losing their effectiveness as they die. The plasma gets 10 ablative wounds that can pump out their own 'budget' plasma when they get closer, reroll 1s to wound, and can get +1 to wound alongside a variety of anti-xenos strats that you'll benefit from given your common opponents.
But both units benefit from moving forward. Speed is different for each, obviously, and the first one probably doesn't fit what you're looking for. It can sit on objectives and make the enemy's life painful, but it really only has an 18'' threat range. The other is closer to what you're looking for as it can plink from range but puts a good amount of its damage when closer. If you intend to stay as far away as possible, consider dropping the Inceptor, but that Eldar player will try and drive a wave serpent into that unit whenever he can, so its a trade off.
You are correct, it is durable firepower at range I am looking for, I do not as yet have a codex for DW so am not aufait with the extras that are available. I can use my mobile BA to get forward, take objectives, cause hassle etc.
Stupid question, but what is SIA? I have seen it mentioned a lot in this thread, but it's a long thread to trawl through to find the definition.
Are there any specific DW characters who provide specific buffs.
I don't particularly want to take as much as a battalion, but who knows where this would lead!
Hi gkos, I'm pretty new to DW, but here's my attempt to answer your questions...
SIA is a four-type ammunition loadout that works on bolters, bolt pistols, bolt rifles, etc (but not heavy bolter variants). It absolutely rocks and is one of the stand out strengths of DW. The two best profiles are probably Vengeance (+6" & -1 AP to the gun's profile), and Hellfire (wound anything on a 2+ vs non-vehicle units!). Combined with vets' new-found ability to use a stormbolter, SIA makes both humble veterans and intercessors pretty formidable. S'great, and only adds 1pt onto a marine's cost per weapon (+2 to stormbolters, which is fair enough. SIA Stormbolters are sweet).
Long range firepower is a bit limited for DW, if you're talking about AT. Our best is Ven Dreadnoughts and FW models. If you're talking troops, then our intercessors are solid in the role - using vengeance rounds, either assault bolt rifles firing -1ap assault 2 30", or bolt rifles -2ap rapid fire 36" - are both solid on a 5-man objective camper unit, and they can plink away at a wide variety of targets. Toughness 8 vehicles are a no-no for them though.
The one unique DW character is the Watchmaster, who is pound for pound one of the best HQs in the Imperium right now. Reroll all misses for only 130pts, with good CC and a nice stat line, who can be specced to take on vehicles in particular, due to his Clavis, an elite piece of kit that messes with tech.
Batallions are expensive, but give you DW troops, which are unique, tactically rich and very fun.
I have enough BA kit to remove tanks, I've had a single death company squad one turn a lord of skulls (they died afterwards, but it was great to see), I also have numerous vehicles so it's the ability to run mixed Primaris with the special issue ammo that I think is quite special (plus, black and silver are a classic combination that looks good with anything)
I have enough BA kit to remove tanks, I've had a single death company squad one turn a lord of skulls (they died afterwards, but it was great to see), I also have numerous vehicles so it's the ability to run mixed Primaris with the special issue ammo that I think is quite special (plus, black and silver are a classic combination that looks good with anything)
Sorry bud, I forgot you had mentioned you were coming in blind
If you have enough BA kits to remove tanks, then I'm not sure what you'll find of benefit from Hellblasters. Or rather, specifically DW ones. You'll obviously want something to take on high toughness infantry or monsters while you're slamming the feth out of tanks...which is where special issue ammunition comes into play.
So, to break it down a bit, SIA provides you some great bonuses that you choose when a unit fires. Dragonfire gives you +1 to hit against targets in cover - very situational and almost never used, but there are some cases where it can be of value. Hellfire rounds wound on 2+ on anything that isn't a vehicle or titanic. That's great for monster hunting or taking out anything high toughness. Intercessors carry a -1AP bolt rifle normally, so Hellfire gives you a weapon that can wound most foot slogging threats on 2s and subtract from their armour save, which is a good tool to have against big tough Xeno monsters or anybody with an invuln where high AP isn't helping, or anybody in cover, etc.. Next is Kraken, which adds 6'' of range (or 3'' on pistols) and another -1AP. That means your Intercessor bolt rifles are double tapping at 18'' and reaching out 36'' normally with -2 AP. That's pretty boss. Vengeance subtracts 6'' (or 3'' from pistols) but grants you -2 AP. So that makes Intercessor bolt rifles double tap at 12'' (like normal boltguns) at a pretty awesome -3AP. They're basically budget plasma guns, and with a couple CP gain +1 to wound. SIA weapons also give you a sweet strat that gives you the option to pump out mortal wounds.
HQ choices are Watch Masters that give you reroll to all missed hit rolls, sport 6 wounds, 2+ws/bs, 2+ armour, and a 4++, along with giving you a discount on the adaptive tactics strat, which is what you'll use if you need to swap Mission Tactics. Mission Tactics are the DW version of chapter tactics - basically reroll 1s to wound on a specific battlefield role (elite, fast attack, troop, etc.) that you select at the beginning but can change with a strat. Then you have the normal Watch Captain which gives rerolls on 1s to hit, and a decent amount of wargear options, next to Chaplains and Librarians (and their Primaris equivalents). I honestly don't know anything about BA librarians except I think they run a different discipline, so this might be a good opportunity to get something from the Librarius discipline, if you find it's of value?
DW are probably the best use of Primaris, but it can get expensive if you don't laser focus on what you want them to do, especially if you want them to supplement a weakness or fill a particular role. Based on what you're saying, I'm not sure Hellblasters can help you as much as just normal DW Intercessors with bolt weapons will. They'll certainly be cheaper that way, but I don't want to dissuade you if you want the flexibility of Hellblasters as part of a crazy hit squad in a patrol detachment that seeks out and murders different threats based on combat roles.
Then there are the special anti-Xenos strats you can take advantage of. The anti-Necron one hurts resurrection protocols, while the anti-Aeldari one gives you a chance to fire on fly units if they get too close, though with an impact on hit. These have been amazing for me in my games (I play primarily DW with a CP battery AM battalion like everybody else) but both these and the +1 to wound strats work best when applied to bigger units.
Let me know if you end up adding them and what you think! I absolutely love everything about DW - warts and all. It's become my favourite power armour marine force. I need to find a way to get myself into GW because I often daydream about random rules changes I'd make (what fan doesn't lol)
As far as Deathwatch Librarians, Psychic Fortress is probably their best power (assuming any enemy psykers are present). Mortal wounds are the bane of any elite army, and 4+ FNPs will absolutely save you. With most smite-type powers hitting the closest unit, it’s also easy to tell who’s going to get it worst and cast accordingly.
thanks again for taking the time to reply, whilst I mentioned I can take out a tank or monster, the CC troops that do it (be it captain slam or death company) are generally one hit wonders.
The kraken ammo looks pretty awesome, depending on faction, bog standard necrons are slow, to be putting shots in them at 36" could make a big difference. What I am missing is mobile "mid range" firepower that doesn't suffer massive penalties if it moves. this is where I see the intercessors coming in.
I mentioned hellblasters in my initial post as I was coming in from ignorance, on paper they look good. As you point out SIA changes the rules somewhat.
FYI, BA librarians do jack for shooting, they can give attacks or invulns to other units, make themselves into CC tough guys who can fly and also dish out some mortal wounds like any other libby. If you roll lucky on the psychic phase, a flying librarian dread with +d3 attacks and a 5+ invuln can put down some hurt, but not as much as Mephiston!
I will play up some models and let you know how it goes.
gkos wrote: thanks again for taking the time to reply, whilst I mentioned I can take out a tank or monster, the CC troops that do it (be it captain slam or death company) are generally one hit wonders.
The kraken ammo looks pretty awesome, depending on faction, bog standard necrons are slow, to be putting shots in them at 36" could make a big difference. What I am missing is mobile "mid range" firepower that doesn't suffer massive penalties if it moves. this is where I see the intercessors coming in.
I mentioned hellblasters in my initial post as I was coming in from ignorance, on paper they look good. As you point out SIA changes the rules somewhat.
FYI, BA librarians do jack for shooting, they can give attacks or invulns to other units, make themselves into CC tough guys who can fly and also dish out some mortal wounds like any other libby. If you roll lucky on the psychic phase, a flying librarian dread with +d3 attacks and a 5+ invuln can put down some hurt, but not as much as Mephiston!
I will play up some models and let you know how it goes.
As mentioned by Badablack, DW Librarians bring mostly buffs to others. Psychic Fortress is great, and Null Zone helps you combat invuln saves.
Midfield mobility could be achieved by that auto bolt rifle squad I mentioned. Kraken makes the assault bolters pop off two shots of -1AP pain at 30", or two shots of -2AP with Vengeance at 18". Add just one Aggressor and you can advance without penalty. While I said their best range is 18", that ignored the fact that they can keep at that range for a long time with that mobility. It's honestly the unit I have the most fun with, but I haven't had the displeasure of facing a lot of 2 damage weapons or needing to rely on invuln saves.
One major thing about DW that I spaced on (seriously, I'm making terrible assumptions about what you know lol) that might make you think of other tactical options is the Teleportarium stratagem. Up to 3CP to stick up to 3 infantry or dreadnoughts units into reserve. Could give you options there.
What points value could you change the commander to that wouldn't just cause people to take 2 Primaris psykers or two Lord commissars instead while still not picking over mono guard? I mean, a 10 point increase to 40 points only adds 20 to the CP battery cost which wouldn't phase anyone taking them as a CP battery. Anything more than 10 and the battery player just grabs a different cheap HQ choice while the guard players pay for people cherry picking their units for CP. Outside of the context of a battery, a commander is extremely underwhelming as a model. S3/T3/3 base attacks, 5++. Yes, he gets to issue two orders, but that is his only real effect on the battlefield.
RogueApiary wrote: What points value could you change the commander to that wouldn't just cause people to take 2 Primaris psykers or two Lord commissars instead while still not picking over mono guard? I mean, a 10 point increase to 40 points only adds 20 to the CP battery cost which wouldn't phase anyone taking them as a CP battery. Anything more than 10 and the battery player just grabs a different cheap HQ choice while the guard players pay for people cherry picking their units for CP. Outside of the context of a battery, a commander is extremely underwhelming as a model. S3/T3/3 base attacks, 5++. Yes, he gets to issue two orders, but that is his only real effect on the battlefield.
It honestly doesn't matter how much you increase Guard - it won't stop elite Imperium armies from needing cheap units like what they bring. Increase it too high and I'll just go to admech in its place. The CP battery from GS and KA make it a no brainer to pick guard right now over any other chaff, but if those two issues were handled it would definitely make more options viable. But that's the key part there - I'll still need cheap trash to hold the board. It will be that way until those elite armies get their own way to cover the board or don't need bubble wrap so readily, or the rules for detachments change to encourage mono forces, or a whole other set of major or minor changes that would open up astartes forces to more options. Until then, I'm okay with the fluffy guard battalion anchoring the marine force.
RogueApiary wrote: What points value could you change the commander to that wouldn't just cause people to take 2 Primaris psykers or two Lord commissars instead while still not picking over mono guard? I mean, a 10 point increase to 40 points only adds 20 to the CP battery cost which wouldn't phase anyone taking them as a CP battery. Anything more than 10 and the battery player just grabs a different cheap HQ choice while the guard players pay for people cherry picking their units for CP. Outside of the context of a battery, a commander is extremely underwhelming as a model. S3/T3/3 base attacks, 5++. Yes, he gets to issue two orders, but that is his only real effect on the battlefield.
It honestly doesn't matter how much you increase Guard - it won't stop elite Imperium armies from needing cheap units like what they bring. Increase it too high and I'll just go to admech in its place. The CP battery from GS and KA make it a no brainer to pick guard right now over any other chaff, but if those two issues were handled it would definitely make more options viable. But that's the key part there - I'll still need cheap trash to hold the board. It will be that way until those elite armies get their own way to cover the board or don't need bubble wrap so readily, or the rules for detachments change to encourage mono forces, or a whole other set of major or minor changes that would open up astartes forces to more options. Until then, I'm okay with the fluffy guard battalion anchoring the marine force.
I think we're on the same wavelength here Lemondish, that was directed towards the people who keep on insisting nerfing guard is the answer to the CP battery issue. I'm not convinced the CP battery even needs a nerf given that Imperium isn't exactly sweeping top tables.
The CP battery is powerful, and is common to all competitive Imperium lists. But is that necessarily a bad thing given the variety of lists that use it as a piece in an overall list? Especially when that piece is the only thing propping up at least three Imperium factions? Like I said, the Knight Codex lance detachment rule is to me pretty clear evidence that GW knows about the CP battery and is designing around it rather than changing it directly.
I don't think a thing being overpowered is always the problem. The CP battery is boring to use, boring to see in other lists, and fairly useless on the table top. It's only good because certain armies have a hard time generating CP, which is the actual problem that needs solving.
jcd386 wrote: I don't think a thing being overpowered is always the problem. The CP battery is boring to use, boring to see in other lists, and fairly useless on the table top. It's only good because certain armies have a hard time generating CP, which is the actual problem that needs solving.
Actually, no it's not useless. Especially for Deathwatch. They give you fire support and board presence that you can't really achieve with a pure DW army - you don't have the number of models or units for it. You could go MSU, but that will really hamper your strats when you could just fill it with the galaxy's best meat shields. Remember, DW can't screen well at all, and I mean more than just screening out deep strike. Screens do far more than that.
You really don't want your 20-50 point marines catching smite all game. Even a couple farseers smiting every turn can very quickly add up for you. You want the poor guardsman to do it for you.
Deep strike is still a major threat and without screens you’re vulnerable to enemy deep striking units. Even if the enemy can’t deep strike turn 1, they can still very much deliver drop plasma on your door step turn 2 and your 25 point marines have to be the ones to eat the rapid fire. Keep a screen so that drop plasma isn't in rapid fire range and you'll keep the killy DW stuff alive much longer. Guardsmen can do that while DW doesn't have anything for that job. I mean, there’s a reason so many imperial lists start with “Guard Battalion”, so many T'au lists use Strike teams, so many Eldar lists use Rangers, so many marine lists use scouts...and so on.
Want to bubble wrap a vehicle? Why throw Intercessors there when you could go super cheap with an infantry squad.
Guard is just the best option for that role because they bring the CP regen. Removing the CP regen will likely open up more options of how you fill that need, but the one option folks think they'll see won't actually come about. Simply put, with 8th edition how it currently is, there is zero reason for elite Imperium armies to go mono.
But it's not all bad. Realistically there is a points cost that can make PA worthwhile. Maybe they'll find a way with the final codex...
Fair enough, useless was the wrong word. They are useful because they are cheap and can get in the way of stuff and everything you just mentioned. And obviously they do fit well with DW, which I think is fine as well.
However, I don't think it's inherently bad for an elite army to have smite and drop plasma as a weakness, so long as they have other strengths.
I also don't think it's inherently bad to be able to take allies that shore up that weakness some, so long as doing so is a tactical choice made at the expense of other tactical choices.
My issue with the current situation is that allying the guard CP battery is such a strong choice you are practically handicapping yourself if you don't take it. I also find it fairly bland, but that's more personal preference than anything else.
To me, changing the way CP are rewarded is probably the best thing for GW to do, so that DW and other CP hungry armies can generate CP themselves without having to rely on other factions or min maxed detachments. Then, if you decide you need some IG in your list its because you find the units themselves fun and useful, not because you need CP and the units are so cheap that it's a no brainier.
Make something similar to Battleforged called Warforged. If all your detachments share the [deathwatch] keyword (or whatever other keyword) then instead of the base 3 CP you get 6, or 9, or whatever is balanced. It takes the least amount of errata to change.
Badablack wrote: Make something similar to Battleforged called Warforged. If all your detachments share the [deathwatch] keyword (or whatever other keyword) then instead of the base 3 CP you get 6, or 9, or whatever is balanced. It takes the least amount of errata to change.
I'd prefer something more comprehensive like my post from another thread below, as I think it might actually fix the problem, but you are probably right that something like that is more likely to happen.
For the CPs, they could just have criteria you can meet for bonuses. For example:
Battle forged: 3 CP All detachments share a codex faction (ie, space marine, Tau, orks, dark eldar, etc): 2 CP All detachments share the same codex sub faction: 2 CP (stacks with the previous one).
For every 100 points of troops: 1 CP For every 200 points of HQs: 1 CP
This way your average pure faction army would have something like 13 CP (3 for battle forged, 4 for pure faction, 2 for 400 points in HQs, and 4 for 400 points of troops), which I think is a reasonable amount, and you could always get more by putting more points into troops.
If you wanted to mix subfactions (such as ultramarines and ravenguard), you can do so at the cost of 2 CP. If you want to ally in something else (such as imperial guard and ravenguard) it would cost you 4.
This would make a typical allies army have 9 CP, which seems okay to me. It's still definitely worth doing if you want to, but no longer a no brainier / required to be competitive, and can still be offset by bringing more troops.
jcd386 wrote: My issue with the current situation is that allying the guard CP battery is such a strong choice you are practically handicapping yourself if you don't take it. I also find it fairly bland, but that's more personal preference than anything else.
To me, changing the way CP are rewarded is probably the best thing for GW to do, so that DW and other CP hungry armies can generate CP themselves without having to rely on other factions or min maxed detachments. Then, if you decide you need some IG in your list its because you find the units themselves fun and useful, not because you need CP and the units are so cheap that it's a no brainier.
Hopefully that makes sense.
Yep, on that we definitely agree.
Badablack wrote: Make something similar to Battleforged called Warforged. If all your detachments share the [deathwatch] keyword (or whatever other keyword) then instead of the base 3 CP you get 6, or 9, or whatever is balanced. It takes the least amount of errata to change.
That could definitely work, and would be fantastic.
Though that begs the question then - how do we mitigate some of the major weaknesses of a pure DW list if we naturally have enough CP to do most of what we need to when we need it?
Personally, I don't really see it as a problem, because I see it as more of a solution to a bigger problem. The endless fracturing of the Imperium into endless mini-factions just makes for a mess. With each one only getting 2-3 unique SKUs and maybe some special characters; there's just no way to provide them with the variety of options needed to compete with factions that can do it all. Imagine how less competitive Eldar would have been all this time if every time they got a new model GW decided to call it its own faction where you bought that one new kit a dozen times and built minor variants out of it?
Sure, you can rip Guard out of every army and then spend forever coming up with custom solutions to the competitive factions you face when you have 1 option for each FOC slot, but why?
And in a game that has always been plagued by "find the best thing and spam it" logic, isn't soup a good thing? If I'm taking models from 3 different codexes, I've got a vastly more varied and interesting army than one in which I'm just trying to take as much of the most powerful thing from the one Codex I have. This is triple true if I'm one of the dozens of Imperium codexes that really only have 1 option available.
So, no, I don't want pure Deathwatch. I don't want to be required to take 3 Blackstars to drop my Veterans off like before. I don't want to have some weird special rule to try and protect me from smite but isn't really good enough because people freak out that its strictly better than a similar rule elsewhere despite that elsewhere having access to units less weak to smite. Soup solves a fundamental problem with the game and that problem is simply the years of half baked factions GW has used to sell people the same stuff with a different coat of paint. I for one am quite happy to play a far more varied and fleshed out faction, even if its not limited to one codex.
Well said LunarSol. Though as an aside I will say I'd have no problems with the Blackstar or Land Raider being good enough to be considered an auto-include for most DW lists. They're thematically the most DW of transports, and I'd love for them to be competitive enough on the table that you can take them without it being a huge disadvantage. Sadly, they aren't there yet. The Corvus needs potms or the Valkyrie grav chute insertion rule, and the Land Raider needs a huge point decrease and defense against tarpits.
Both options being viable could have helped reduce the anti-tank DW issue, but for now the best I've found is to use dunecrawlers or LR tanks, or allied space marine Devastators.
Oh, I want the Blackstar to be better; it definitely needs a way to mitigate its Heavy issue. I'm referring more to how its basically 1 Blackstar per mixed Kill Team, which made 3 Blackstars pretty necessary for pure Deathwatch pre-Primaris.
LunarSol wrote: Personally, I don't really see it as a problem, because I see it as more of a solution to a bigger problem. The endless fracturing of the Imperium into endless mini-factions just makes for a mess. With each one only getting 2-3 unique SKUs and maybe some special characters; there's just no way to provide them with the variety of options needed to compete with factions that can do it all. Imagine how less competitive Eldar would have been all this time if every time they got a new model GW decided to call it its own faction where you bought that one new kit a dozen times and built minor variants out of it?
Sure, you can rip Guard out of every army and then spend forever coming up with custom solutions to the competitive factions you face when you have 1 option for each FOC slot, but why?
And in a game that has always been plagued by "find the best thing and spam it" logic, isn't soup a good thing? If I'm taking models from 3 different codexes, I've got a vastly more varied and interesting army than one in which I'm just trying to take as much of the most powerful thing from the one Codex I have. This is triple true if I'm one of the dozens of Imperium codexes that really only have 1 option available.
So, no, I don't want pure Deathwatch. I don't want to be required to take 3 Blackstars to drop my Veterans off like before. I don't want to have some weird special rule to try and protect me from smite but isn't really good enough because people freak out that its strictly better than a similar rule elsewhere despite that elsewhere having access to units less weak to smite. Soup solves a fundamental problem with the game and that problem is simply the years of half baked factions GW has used to sell people the same stuff with a different coat of paint. I for one am quite happy to play a far more varied and fleshed out faction, even if its not limited to one codex.
I think you are right that it (allies) is a solution to a larger problem or set of problems. However, I see it as more of a work around solution, since I don't think it does a very good job. It lets the game be playable, but the problems still exist.
In fact I think allies and the ones people are frequently taking are sometimes a good indicator of current issue the game is having that are forcing people to adopt certain units it playstyles.
Look at the guard CP battery. I think it can be reasonably said it is a symptom of the following game issues to some extent or another:
1. CP are tied to FOC slots, which some armies arbitrarily get more of simply because they happen to have cheap units.
2. Cheap 1 wound infantry is too good at too many things (such as being more durable per point than almost anything else, board control, smite screening, assault screening, deepstrike defence). All of these mean there is rarely a reason not to have them.
3. Smite targeting the closest unit has a major weakness, ie chaff. To the point where as long as smite spam is a thing, cheap bodies will always be needed in a list.
The game certainly works the way it is now, but I think it would be better if the above issues were addressed in some ways. Until then I guess allies will keep the game going.
That kind of change isn't really the kind that solves problems. It's the kind that shuffles things around. Part of the problem with the way the internet criticizes is that it simply points out drawbacks instead of considering the tradeoffs for those drawbacks. Often times the answer is more in the middle. You CAN change something, but it often costs you elsewhere.
I don't think changing those things necessarily makes for a better game; just a different one. I think there's legtimate value in a game played at the scale of 40k demanding some expendable bodies on the table. People seem to have this dream that balance means an army doesn't need to be protected from getting charged, but gets charged, still wins, AND the opposing player should still somehow want to charge them. That's just not how games work on the table and having tools like cheap bodies as answers rather than simply trying to make everything work against everything is how you make meaningful choices in a game.
LunarSol wrote: That kind of change isn't really the kind that solves problems. It's the kind that shuffles things around. Part of the problem with the way the internet criticizes is that it simply points out drawbacks instead of considering the tradeoffs for those drawbacks. Often times the answer is more in the middle. You CAN change something, but it often costs you elsewhere.
I don't think changing those things necessarily makes for a better game; just a different one. I think there's legtimate value in a game played at the scale of 40k demanding some expendable bodies on the table. People seem to have this dream that balance means an army doesn't need to be protected from getting charged, but gets charged, still wins, AND the opposing player should still somehow want to charge them. That's just not how games work on the table and having tools like cheap bodies as answers rather than simply trying to make everything work against everything is how you make meaningful choices in a game.
I don't think I actually suggested specific changes there, so i'm not sure exactly what you are referring to. I just pointed out imbalances the game currently has that make the IG battery a best in class option for literally every faction in the game that has it as a legal option.
I am not saying that any of the issues have to be removed from the game entirely, and i agree that most solutions are usually in the middle. To me the ideal solution would be to have IG allies be a valid competitive choice without it being an obvious one. Slight tweaks do generally seem better than major rewrites.
As for the demand of expendable bodies, I disagree from a game mechanics standpoint, as well as a "what GW intends the game to be like" standpoint. Having a large number of single wound models is just one of a few ways for a unit to be durable, and their isn't logical reason i know of why it should be better than units that rely on making saves or having multiple wounds. Each unit type has it's strengths and weaknesses and they should be costed appropriately based on them. You should be able to pick a type of durability to focus on and live with those strengths and weaknesses, or to mix up durability types, without being forced into one way to play by one type of durability being obviously better. This is made even more apparent, I think, by the way GW designs factions with obvious themes, strengths, and weaknesses. They just don't always make the rules back them up correctly, or know how to balance them correctly.
Can someone tell me whether I'm crazy, because I think a 5man vet team all armed with combi-flamers might be worth a punt?
Put in one or two stormshields to make the squad 145-150pts, and you have 5d6 autohits, and 20 SIA shots (at -1 to hit ofc).
Normally, that would be some pretty nice chaff cleaning power (19 dead boyz w/watchmaster & mission), but a bit too overspecialised to really be worth it, but the weight of shots these guys can concentrate makes them a clear pick for spending 2cps on a doctine. Assuming you have a Watchmaster to back them up, and use a 2cp doctrine, you're talking about 8.6 expected damage on a Predator... With 5 combi-flamers.
What do you think? I'll proxy them next game and see what happens.
grouchoben wrote: Can someone tell me whether I'm crazy, because I think a 5man vet team all armed with combi-flamers might be worth a punt?
Put in one or two stormshields to make the squad 145-150pts, and you have 5d6 autohits, and 20 SIA shots (at -1 to hit ofc).
Normally, that would be some pretty nice chaff cleaning power (19 dead boyz w/watchmaster & mission), but a bit too overspecialised to really be worth it, but the weight of shots these guys can concentrate makes them a clear pick for spending 2cps on a doctine. Assuming you have a Watchmaster to back them up, and use a 2cp doctrine, you're talking about 8.6 expected damage on a Predator... With 5 combi-flamers.
What do you think? I'll proxy them next game and see what happens.
Of the combi weapons I think it's the weakest choice. Storm Bolters will average out to 1.5 fewer shots per model, but you always know what you're getting and still benefit from SIA for cheaper and you're not taking a -1 to hit on the Bolter portion.
Delivery is an issue as well. Getting vets into 8" without a Corvus is pretty hard unless you use a teleport slot. Even then, you'll need a couple terminators and 2-4 storm shields to make sure you survive to enter flame range. If you're going through all that trouble to protect a unit that needs to get within 8", then you may as well upgrade to frag cannons.
grouchoben wrote: Can someone tell me whether I'm crazy, because I think a 5man vet team all armed with combi-flamers might be worth a punt?
Put in one or two stormshields to make the squad 145-150pts, and you have 5d6 autohits, and 20 SIA shots (at -1 to hit ofc).
Normally, that would be some pretty nice chaff cleaning power (19 dead boyz w/watchmaster & mission), but a bit too overspecialised to really be worth it, but the weight of shots these guys can concentrate makes them a clear pick for spending 2cps on a doctine. Assuming you have a Watchmaster to back them up, and use a 2cp doctrine, you're talking about 8.6 expected damage on a Predator... With 5 combi-flamers.
What do you think? I'll proxy them next game and see what happens.
The main issues are cost and delivery. How do you get flamers in range of anything worth killing? And for 12 points a pop, they aren't exactly cheap weapons.
You're both right - delivery means either an asscan razorback or a Corvus. I've been running a corvus or two in my lists, as well as DS Fortis teams, so there's often space at the back for a cheeky 5-man.
4 Frag cannons & a sarg are a better bet, as you say. I just ran the numbers on them vs boyz and they delete 23 models (vs 19 for the 5xcombiflamers). Brutal. But they do clock in about 46pts more, about 33% price increase.
It's just that I've been having so much fun with my stormbolter vets that I'm considering a 40pt upgrade on a squad of 5 to buy them an extra 5d6 autohits at 8".
So, reading on through some of the lists here I have been assembling a fair bit and settling on a few builds:
5xvet squad
-Sgt with SB and PS - 1x SB and SS (should I be using 2?)
- 3xvet SB and chain swords.
- 1x frag cannon.
These guys would be jumping out of a TAC Razorback, I figure at least one more squad like this for the TLC Razorback.
Primarus is easy to get mixed up with all the add-ons.
The assault Intercessors is good for on the move, good shooting and Sgt with chain sword.
An Aggressor to remove the -1 for advancing, I figured flame-storm was the way to go in the off-chance of being charged.
Inceptor to be able to back out of a fight and shoot with assault bolters.
I keep being tempted with adding 3 assault Hellblasters.
I was thinking a normal Intercessor x6 with x4 Hellblasters (rapid fire) is a way to go and possibly combat squad.
I assume people run the Watch Master near these guys.
I assume due to the meta we try to get as many squads as possible and keep the size down.
What are people kitting their Darkstars out with?
I am a bit leery of dropping out of supersonic to drop off passengers.
It is a great dakka-aircraft but we have much of that on the ground.
I figure their role is to be vehicle/large creature hunting and "opportunity" character assassination.
Bombing units on the ground is a bonus.
I keep hearing some characters with jump-packs are a good choice like Librarian and Chaplain.
Venerable Dreadnought with TLC and ML will help with armor.
I will have to get these thoughts into Battlescribe and see what a 2000 point list looks like.
If you were to do a Deathwatch list from scratch with any option available: what would you do?
more for casual games than anything competitive, what are the thoughts on landraiders? mostly because they are the only transport besides the corvus or storm eagle that can handle mixed squads
Looking at expanding my army, I'm looking at possibly supplementing my DW a bit, and A lot of what I have learned in this thread is that Deathwatch is okay, but better if brought as a "soup" with another Imperium-based detachment. A lot of people go toward IG for the CP farm and cheap models, but I'm not a huge fan of IG, and I'm wondering if there's any other solid choices out there.
In your guys' opinions, what are some good alternatives? I was thinking about BA, but I don't have the codex yet and I'm not sure what a good starting detachment would be if I were to bring them (or if they would even be worth it).....
You can squeeze a double battalion and a cheap knight in to 2k - I think that's a viable soup choice. The top-target priority of a paragon-gauntlet Gallant charging your enemy will take a lots of AT pressure off your expensive toys too.
Really, your DW chew through CPs so you want the 13CP from 2 battalions somehow. That means Admech or guard, with both being good, or MSUDW.
If you don't like Infantry Guard, you can make do with Scions for a little more elite feel as well. They're nearly as cheap (just as 5 mans instead of 10) and while they're not as good at dying as their half priced brethren, they'll still create a very cheap battalion.
I don't think I actually suggested specific changes there, so i'm not sure exactly what you are referring to. I just pointed out imbalances the game currently has that make the IG battery a best in class option for literally every faction in the game that has it as a legal option.
What I'm getting at is they you're not necessarily describing imbalances, just sort of what the game looks like in what may be a balanced state. Most "balanced" games still settle on some obvious choices and attempting to fix them doesn't generally make the game any more balanced; it just changes what the obvious choices are.
Codex's create a very siloed mindset as you play 40k. That's where you weigh a lot of your options and make most of your decisions, so when something feels like a no brainer, it feels like the balance is off. A codex is just internal balance though, and focusing on it isn't nearly as important as external balance. If every single faction in the game had a competitive build, even if it was just ONE competitive build, it would be more diverse and healthy game than one in which 2-3 codexes can run whatever they want and win.
In terms of list creativity, an auto include that takes up 10% of a list enables way more than it takes away. Given the classic FOC literally determined the composition of more of a list than that, I see it as something that does far more to improve the game than it takes away.
Primarus is easy to get mixed up with all the add-ons.
The assault Intercessors is good for on the move, good shooting and Sgt with chain sword.
An Aggressor to remove the -1 for advancing, I figured flame-storm was the way to go in the off-chance of being charged.
Inceptor to be able to back out of a fight and shoot with assault bolters.
I keep being tempted with adding 3 assault Hellblasters.
I'd avoid the assault hellblasters. While they'd work great for hunting elite infantry in any other force, SIA can fill that gap for you. It's better to bring rapid fire for heavier T7-T8 targets.
I would absolutely avoid the flamestorm gauntlets. That's a lot of points to dissuade somebody from charging you, which they probably don't want to do already, and you're unlikely to actually gain any normal benefit from them with such a pitiful range. Go bolters - better range and with the Intercessors acting as ablative wounds, you'll get the opportunity to shoot twice much more often.
I've played with three versions of this unit - barebones just one Aggressor; one with an extra Inceptor; and one where I run 5 Intercessors alongside 4 bolter aggressors and an inceptor. That last one is expensive, but it's a T5, 2+ in cover, ultra mobile literal storm of screen clearing goodness.
Talizvar wrote: I was thinking a normal Intercessor x6 with x4 Hellblasters (rapid fire) is a way to go and possibly combat squad.
I assume people run the Watch Master near these guys.
I do 5x Intercessors, 4x Hellblasters, and an Inceptor. The last thing I want is for these guys to go silent (it's the biggest counter for Hellblasters outside of just murdering them).
Talizvar wrote: I assume due to the meta we try to get as many squads as possible and keep the size down.
Huge trade off here since you'll find the +1 to wound strats work much better on larger squads. Vets can also be immune to morale, so that's not even an issue. The only thing I'd keep in mind is a tournament setting like ITC could hurt - squad size can give up vp on certain objectives. Drop a body to avoid it.
Talizvar wrote: What are people kitting their Darkstars out with?
I am a bit leery of dropping out of supersonic to drop off passengers.
It is a great dakka-aircraft but we have much of that on the ground.
I figure their role is to be vehicle/large creature hunting and "opportunity" character assassination.
Bombing units on the ground is a bonus.
Dakka all the way. It's the cheapest and it isn't worth the couple lascannon shots that hit on 4s.
Talizvar wrote: I keep hearing some characters with jump-packs are a good choice like Librarian and Chaplain.
Definitely a way to go here. Lets them stay in reserve if you have enough power on the board already.
Talizvar wrote: Venerable Dreadnought with TLC and ML will help with armor.
I've been meaning to add one alongside a couple Armiger Helverins, but for now my T8 shooting is coming from a couple LR tank commanders.
Talizvar wrote: If you were to do a Deathwatch list from scratch with any option available: what would you do?
Only DW, or are allies acceptable?
NickTheButcher wrote: Looking at expanding my army, I'm looking at possibly supplementing my DW a bit, and A lot of what I have learned in this thread is that Deathwatch is okay, but better if brought as a "soup" with another Imperium-based detachment. A lot of people go toward IG for the CP farm and cheap models, but I'm not a huge fan of IG, and I'm wondering if there's any other solid choices out there.
In your guys' opinions, what are some good alternatives? I was thinking about BA, but I don't have the codex yet and I'm not sure what a good starting detachment would be if I were to bring them (or if they would even be worth it).....
BA can give you some tank hunting power with the slamfucker captains alongside decent screening and early board control with scouts. Or you could go Ad Mech for a nice fire base that will fill a similar role as the IG on the board, minus the CP regen. Like most elite army lists, they're going to be better as allies since they simply do not have the tools necessary to do it all on their own.
What I'm getting at is they you're not necessarily describing imbalances, just sort of what the game looks like in what may be a balanced state. Most "balanced" games still settle on some obvious choices and attempting to fix them doesn't generally make the game any more balanced; it just changes what the obvious choices are.
Codex's create a very siloed mindset as you play 40k. That's where you weigh a lot of your options and make most of your decisions, so when something feels like a no brainer, it feels like the balance is off. A codex is just internal balance though, and focusing on it isn't nearly as important as external balance. If every single faction in the game had a competitive build, even if it was just ONE competitive build, it would be more diverse and healthy game than one in which 2-3 codexes can run whatever they want and win.
In terms of list creativity, an auto include that takes up 10% of a list enables way more than it takes away. Given the classic FOC literally determined the composition of more of a list than that, I see it as something that does far more to improve the game than it takes away.
While I agree, the problem is that right now there's really only one competitive choice. Guard is simply too good at the CP regen atm to make any other choice equivalent in any way.
I also feel like there's a ridiculously high amount of faction representation in the tournament scene lately - much, much more than we saw in 7th. I think that's an important thing to recognize and keep in mind when we talk balance. We're actually at a really good place now compared to before. I feel like the IG battalion is an issue not because of its points costs, but because of the CP regen - it's not worth considering alternative options until that is addressed, I feel.
NickTheButcher wrote: Looking at expanding my army, I'm looking at possibly supplementing my DW a bit, and A lot of what I have learned in this thread is that Deathwatch is okay, but better if brought as a "soup" with another Imperium-based detachment. A lot of people go toward IG for the CP farm and cheap models, but I'm not a huge fan of IG, and I'm wondering if there's any other solid choices out there.
In your guys' opinions, what are some good alternatives? I was thinking about BA, but I don't have the codex yet and I'm not sure what a good starting detachment would be if I were to bring them (or if they would even be worth it).....
BA can give you some tank hunting power with the slamfucker captains alongside decent screening and early board control with scouts. Or you could go Ad Mech for a nice fire base that will fill a similar role as the IG on the board, minus the CP regen. Like most elite army lists, they're going to be better as allies since they simply do not have the tools necessary to do it all on their own.
Kind of what I was looking for -- I see a lot of the recommendations lean toward IG, however, I'm under the impression that the CP battery will eventually get "changed" and not be as effective as it is now. So with that in mind, I'm seeing what other options might fit this role that aren't specific to IG. I'll look into AdMech as well -- any thoughts on what you would aim to bring in an AdMech detachment?
While I agree, the problem is that right now there's really only one competitive choice. Guard is simply too good at the CP regen atm to make any other choice equivalent in any way.
I also feel like there's a ridiculously high amount of faction representation in the tournament scene lately - much, much more than we saw in 7th. I think that's an important thing to recognize and keep in mind when we talk balance. We're actually at a really good place now compared to before. I feel like the IG battalion is an issue not because of its points costs, but because of the CP regen - it's not worth considering alternative options until that is addressed, I feel.
Only one choice for 180/2000 points. I think there's a wealth of options available to the remaining 1820. I think we'll find that if they remove the Guard, the actual freedom in list building will reduce pretty dramatically. Not just in Deathwatch, but Deathwatch is a prime example of a faction that suddenly has to pay so much for troops that you simply can't afford blackstars or even really large mixed kill teams.
I get people don't want to feel like they have to take something (though I also think Space Marine models look significantly better next to scale peppers... I mean, Guard) but there's not an easy fix and the overhaul required to remove them and keep the kind of competitive diversity we're seeing seems larger than what you're likely to see even in a new edition. The end result is way more likely to just create an enormous range of non-viable codexes. It feels like its better to embrace rather than fight, IMO.
It feels like its better to embrace rather than fight, IMO.
That said, I do think the Aquila is ridiculous.
I can agree with that, which is kind of where I'm coming from here. I'd personally like to see a couple small changes to encourage more options by making more things viable, not less. I would hate to see imperial bisque disappear, and since I'm a fan of buffs over nerfs, I think that's the best way to go. Kurovs may need to be limited, but even something small like say, Scouts or tacticals being cheaper, would go pretty far for astartes armies trying to keep up on bodies for screening, etc. Not as effective at those two jobs, but they bring other strengths and they'll perhaps be strong enough to support a well rounded force. I guess in closing (since I think we'll have killed this topic at this point) I want more options for allies at a competitive level without feeling like I'm giving up so much power by not taking guard. Does that make sense?
It feels like its better to embrace rather than fight, IMO.
That said, I do think the Aquila is ridiculous.
I can agree with that, which is kind of where I'm coming from here. I'd personally like to see a couple small changes to encourage more options by making more things viable, not less. I would hate to see imperial bisque disappear, and since I'm a fan of buffs over nerfs, I think that's the best way to go. Kurovs may need to be limited, but even something small like say, Scouts or tacticals being cheaper, would go pretty far for astartes armies trying to keep up on bodies for screening, etc. Not as effective at those two jobs, but they bring other strengths and they'll perhaps be strong enough to support a well rounded force. I guess in closing (since I think we'll have killed this topic at this point) I want more options for allies at a competitive level without feeling like I'm giving up so much power by not taking guard. Does that make sense?
I think we all generally agree here. The IGCP battery is a pretty low level problem to have, and I don't think fixing it at the cost of guard viability is the right solution.
That's why I'd much rather them redo the way CP are generated rather than make guard bad. Until then it is probably fine that everyone is playing 1820 + IG points.
I agree that the CP battery isn't going anywhere, and that that might not be a bad thing. Even if they did whack the Guard battalion, there'd be plenty of other options...
You can run 3 BA scouts and a couple of thunderhammer captains for 355pts. I know that's twice the cost, but it has a hell of a lot more utility in terms of area denial and CC counterattack. They all share <adeptus astartes>, so even if they tightened up the rules on detachments, we'd still have options on the table for a CP battalion.
I'm still grumbling for finding an efficient way to include Huron in an allied detachment with some Predators and some Scouts. Damn he needs to come down in price though...
DW units can get super pricy real fast. It is truly an exercise building solid optimized lists. I see them good at killing eveything but tough vehicles and SH.
Yup, to second what was said, I don't see the CP battery going anywhere unless they overhaul detachments. If they nerfed AM, 15 Scouts and 2 Lts is only 270 or the better BA option mentioned above for 350. Maybe they nerf Grand Strategist and/or Kurov's but the AM detachment itself is probably here to stay.
All that does get back to the first thing I wondered about when I read the 8th ed rules, why are CP ties to detachments to begin with? I realize this is due to my bias of wanting my mini wargame to be about moving a lot of minis around and not a couple OP hero HQ, but I was pissed that you get more CPs for taking min detachments (and wtf is with a supreme command giving CPs?! I'm rewarded for bringing the entire chapter command to a skirmish?!) instead of being rewarded for filling out an entire detachment. Think of what it'd do for list building if instead of wanting 2 min battalions you got the same 10 CPs for maxing out all the slots in 1 battalion...
Though, either way, having CPs tied to number of unit slots filled punishes elite armies.
The problem with the IG command point farm is non Imperial armies have nothing close to as good AND some of us don’t want to play IG. It’s simply too good. Sure it’s great for ‘cp hungry’ armies but like I said it’s too good.
It feels like its better to embrace rather than fight, IMO.
That said, I do think the Aquila is ridiculous.
I can agree with that, which is kind of where I'm coming from here. I'd personally like to see a couple small changes to encourage more options by making more things viable, not less. I would hate to see imperial bisque disappear, and since I'm a fan of buffs over nerfs, I think that's the best way to go. Kurovs may need to be limited, but even something small like say, Scouts or tacticals being cheaper, would go pretty far for astartes armies trying to keep up on bodies for screening, etc. Not as effective at those two jobs, but they bring other strengths and they'll perhaps be strong enough to support a well rounded force. I guess in closing (since I think we'll have killed this topic at this point) I want more options for allies at a competitive level without feeling like I'm giving up so much power by not taking guard. Does that make sense?
I think we all generally agree here. The IGCP battery is a pretty low level problem to have, and I don't think fixing it at the cost of guard viability is the right solution.
That's why I'd much rather them redo the way CP are generated rather than make guard bad. Until then it is probably fine that everyone is playing 1820 + IG points.
I don't even think the change needs to be that hardcore - nerf both Grand Strategist and Kurov's Aquila. Then you start to bring IG because of their flavour of bodies and screening, not because that flavour happens to come with a ridiculous bonus.
If we just make other armies better at generating CP without addressing why guard is the best ally, then we won't start seeing more allies.
Back to DW, I'm thinking of plugging the anti-tank hole DW has with ranged options rather than the slamming BA style. Thinking some Raven Guard Devastators and scouts.
I haven't tried anything on the table yet, but in theory I sorta feel like it has to be DW+Devs? The problem I was having with my DW list ideas was I always had too much I wanted to drop in. Vets with SIA stormbolters and frag cannons or Intercessors+Aggressors are awesome to DS in, but then you need some anti-tank. Hellblasters with or even without Intercessors seem the obvious first to go, but you want them in rapid fire range ASAP. You can't DS/SftS everything, you hit the 50% power limit. If you have to pick half your army to start on the table, I feel like it has to be Devs. They're fine while starting short range anti-infantry loses impact.
Only other option I can think of is BA slam starting on the table, which is also CP hungry.
Primark G wrote: The problem with the IG command point farm is non Imperial armies have nothing close to as good AND some of us don’t want to play IG. It’s simply too good. Sure it’s great for ‘cp hungry’ armies but like I said it’s too good.
The only Xenos armies that can't push out a solid double BN army at 2k are Necrons. I have yet to face an Eldar player with fewer than 13 CP starting as rangers/kabalites are cheap and Eldar do not lack for good HQ choices.
Chaos also have no issues hitting 13 CP. Cultists are cheap and good. Demon Princes and Sorcerers are solid HQ choices that also actually do things on the battlefield. Yes, their plug and play CP Battalions cost more, but they are also far more useful than 32 T3 models with S3 guns.
Nids have access to GSC and Brood Brothers in addition to being able to field a min battalion organically for 260 points if they really wanted to.
Tau can get a min BN for 192 points, 234 if you want 30 kroot as scree s instead of 15 fire warriors. 297 for 30 fire warriors Dark Strider, and a fireblade.
Orks also can load up on CP since they're taking 6 mobs of 30 Boyz and at least 3 weird Boyz anyway.
That leaves Necrons for non Imperium armies that hurt for CP.
Only IG can constantly regenerate CP being able to roll for both their own and yours on a 5+. It doesn’t matter how many you start with it at the beginning.
Primark G wrote: Only IG can constantly regenerate CP being able to roll for both their own and yours on a 5+. It doesn’t matter how many you start with it at the beginning.
It's a 4 CP edge if an opponent starting with 12 CP only uses 1 CP strats the entire game. If they use mostly 2 CP strats it's an extra 1-3 CP per game. Considering you've likely had to pay a CP to unlock either an additional AM relic or a DW/Custodes/Whatever relic, you're netting an average of 0-3 CP per game.
Sure, you can potentially roll hot and double your CP pool, but it's not very likely. If Imperium soup sweeps BAO/Socal Open I'd be willing to change my opinion, but I'm not convinced the extra CP is actually translating to Imperium dominating. If anything, it feels like the guard CP battalion is the only thing keeping Imperium armies in the running for top tables.
Lol Imperium is arguably the strongest now. Four extra CP is almost equivalent to bringing another battalion - if you can’t see the obvious advantage there’s not much else to say. I’m sure it’ll be addressed.
Primark G wrote: Only IG can constantly regenerate CP being able to roll for both their own and yours on a 5+. It doesn’t matter how many you start with it at the beginning.
It's a 4 CP edge if an opponent starting with 12 CP only uses 1 CP strats the entire game. If they use mostly 2 CP strats it's an extra 1-3 CP per game. Considering you've likely had to pay a CP to unlock either an additional AM relic or a DW/Custodes/Whatever relic, you're netting an average of 0-3 CP per game.
Sure, you can potentially roll hot and double your CP pool, but it's not very likely. If Imperium soup sweeps BAO/Socal Open I'd be willing to change my opinion, but I'm not convinced the extra CP is actually translating to Imperium dominating. If anything, it feels like the guard CP battalion is the only thing keeping Imperium armies in the running for top tables.
It's not about dominating - they're overly represented, and I think that's more than enough to see there's some internal balance issues in the Imperium regarding allies. Ad mech could bring a lot of the same great tools as a second battalion to elite Imperium forces like DW, but it's not worth giving up the CP regen.
LunarSol wrote: Has anyone actually been arguing that the Aquila is fair or that Grand Strategist being better than the other refund options is either?
Can we just agree to agree on that one?
Definitely agreed. Those are the only things I personally want to see changed. I really like what they can bring as allies, and I think adding them to the more elite Imperium forces is really fluffy and cool. But in a DW sense, I'd like there to be some options in allies (or even better internal solutions) outside of guard to fill in my weaknesses in board coverage, screening, backfield objective camping, and anti-tank. Some of those weaknesses honestly shouldn't exist. They can and should have been handled internally, like how it's super lame that a force with access to the land raider would have issues with anti-tank. Alas, that unit isn't anywhere worth its current price, so DW is effectively gimped in AT.
Back to tactics - for those of you who have faced lots of transports, how have you handled it? Our mission tactics and doctrines don't apply to transports, so do you focus on gunning down the walking stuff then switch once the units in the metal boxes disembark? Or do you try and crack open the transports as soon as possible to get at the goodies inside on your terms?
Razorbacks and Dreadnoughts aren't bad as anti-tank, particularly the latter since they benefit from most of the DW bonuses. I think to get really efficient you need FW Dreadnoughts, but the Missile Launcher is okay. I suppose I'm tearing open another point of contention there, but if someone can tell me the meaningful difference between a Mortis Dreadnought and TAC Razorback, I'd love to hear it.
LunarSol wrote: Razorbacks and Dreadnoughts aren't bad as anti-tank, particularly the latter since they benefit from most of the DW bonuses. I think to get really efficient you need FW Dreadnoughts, but the Missile Launcher is okay. I suppose I'm tearing open another point of contention there, but if someone can tell me the meaningful difference between a Mortis Dreadnought and TAC Razorback, I'd love to hear it.
Well I like that the mortis can take the twin auto cannons.
I'm putting together a Xiphon for my antitank/flyer. Not quite as bleeding edge as a Leviathan but 4 lascannons and 3 S6/-2/3D missiles can do some decent damage. Also seriously considering a venator because they hit hard and nerf the opponent with a -1 to hit. That could be a lifesaver against the oncoming wave of knights...
Talizvar wrote: I have this sneaking suspicion me having not bought one Forgeworld kit direct ever may change soon.
I'm holding off. Each time I'm about to hit the bottom to submit the order, I decide to wait a week or so. By that time it's been nerfed and I dodged a bullet.
Going to echo what one of the posters in your other thread said - I think you'll find Hellblasters in Fortis Kill teams to be of greater benefit as a whole. Everything they said is correct - you'll double their survivability, add some SIA punch, and give them obsec. I run a unit with 5 Bolt Rifle Intercessors, 4 rapid fire plasma Hellblasters, and 1 Plasma Inceptor. I like max sized units because of the stratagems, and the Inceptor is there because my Hellblasters have routinely been silenced with a charge and I like to avoid that.
Lemondish wrote: Going to echo what one of the posters in your other thread said - I think you'll find Hellblasters in Fortis Kill teams to be of greater benefit as a whole. Everything they said is correct - you'll double their survivability, add some SIA punch, and give them obsec. I run a unit with 5 Bolt Rifle Intercessors, 4 rapid fire plasma Hellblasters, and 1 Plasma Inceptor. I like max sized units because of the stratagems, and the Inceptor is there because my Hellblasters have routinely been silenced with a charge and I like to avoid that.
Inceptors outdamage hellblasters per point against most things. They're just so, so very squishy for their cost. I see little reason not to include one in a unit with a bunch of relatively cheap wounds in front of it though.
I’ve found aggressors to be my MVPs lately, probably due to a gross amount of daemon and dark eldar players in my local meta. The sheer quantity of shots they can put out outweighs the lack of special issue ammo, and with all the invulns and transport spam it’s mostly a matter of pushing through enough 5+ wounds. They definitely need a Watchmaster or captain for buffs though.
I think that'd go a little too far. They're already the best version of the unit, hands down, considering they have easy access to re-rolling 1s to wound without adding on the cost of another character. They also have access to +1 to wound, ablative wounds that allow them a greater chance to shoot twice, and look way cooler with a DW shoulder pad
Lemondish wrote: Going to echo what one of the posters in your other thread said - I think you'll find Hellblasters in Fortis Kill teams to be of greater benefit as a whole. Everything they said is correct - you'll double their survivability, add some SIA punch, and give them obsec. I run a unit with 5 Bolt Rifle Intercessors, 4 rapid fire plasma Hellblasters, and 1 Plasma Inceptor. I like max sized units because of the stratagems, and the Inceptor is there because my Hellblasters have routinely been silenced with a charge and I like to avoid that.
Inceptors outdamage hellblasters per point against most things. They're just so, so very squishy for their cost. I see little reason not to include one in a unit with a bunch of relatively cheap wounds in front of it though.
I don't have enough Inceptor models to even proxy it at the moment, but I really wanted to test out a 5 Intercessor 1 Aggressor 4 Inceptor unit as my plasma action. Advance without the penalty and rain white hot plasma at something alongside a captain or watch master. Expensive, but then I never do things half assed in DW...
If I use the beacon Angelis to teleport a unit does that count as moving for the purpose of shooting I.e.: I want my aggressors to double tap after teleport.
Martel732 wrote: I'm thinking functional CP battery: 15 intercessors, watch captain, primaris libby. Why use the other models?
That works out pretty decently, but I rather just use the Guard plug and play CP battery and blow out my points on larger kill teams. They've been the stars in every game I've played largely because the strats have a much greater effect on larger squads so you don't need as much CP in the first place.
I also play more Xenos than anyone else, so that helps. Still haven't had to face Drukhari yet, though. I'm expecting to get my nose bloodied there and bring my DW plans crashing down to earth.
Hey guys, I got a deathwatch list and some points to spare, I'm feeling that there is something missing here in the form of heavy vehicle damage but I could be wrong. Idea is that DW provide fire support and BA, the punchy Melee.
My base list is DW + BA.
Spoiler:
1754/2000 pts BA + DW List
BA Battalion +5 CP ==========HQ==============
- 1 x Captain (TH + SS, Jump pack, Warlord (Artisan of war), -1 CP for Death visions)
- 1 x The Sanguinor
==========Troops============
- 3 x 5 Scouts (Basic loadouts, 1 x Heavy Bolter)
==========Elite==============
- 1 x 7 Sanguinary Guard (5 x Encarmine sword, 2 x Power fist)
And i'm looking for suggestions what to add, I have some ideas such as:
- AMCP battery
Spoiler:
AM Battalion +5 CP ==========HQ==============
- 1 x Company commander (Kurov's Aquila, standard loadout)
- 1 x Lord Commisar (Power fist, Bolt pistol), Had a few points to spare, so upgraded a company commander and give him a fist.
==========Troops============
- 3 x 10 man-Infantry squad (6 Guardsmen, Guardsman w/ special weapon (Plasma gun), Heavy weapons team (Autocannon))
Not sure if this is what I want, but additional bodies and CP's are always nice, so I figured i'd include it. It also rounds my points to exactly 2k.
- Inceptor squad, I head they're pretty alright, especially the plasma variant. But I've no experience with em, or have seen them in action.
- Bike squad, Red that DW bikers are pretty good and can provide a good amount of shots.
- Repulsor. Doesn't exactly fit the list, but I can cut 2 hell blasters to make it fit. Not sure about the effectiveness of it though or a proper load out. I think this would also allow me to quickly drop a squad in rapid fire range.
- Devastator squad. I think the best variation are the raven-guard ones, but a 10 man BAdev squad would also probably be good for taking out tanks if fit with 4 x las canon,5 x marines for ablative wounds.)
- Other suggestions? There are many options, but I'm just not sure what the best option for my situation is.
Alright, I'm getting stuck with decision paralysis and am hoping you ladies/gents (I use those terms loosely) can offer some help. I'm trying to put something together that I wouldn't be embarrassed to bring to a GT (most likely ITC rules). From a purely competitive view I'm probably better off just buying some dark eldar but I like my guys.
I really like my base battalion of DW, like I love the models, concept, fluff and on table ability:
Cap/master (depending on points)
P. Libby
2x primarius teams w/ a couple aggressors (2-3 depending on point availability)
1x team w/ storm bolters (deepstriking, these guys are sooo good)
1x team w/ stalker rifles
Xiphon
Not sure about it replacing the stalker bolt guys who do a great job of back field objective holding. Doing just enough damage to help but not enough to become a priority for the enemy but the anti-big game punch of the xiphon is something I've been lacking.
Now I've been toying with supplementing them with Custodes (own), IG (don't own), BA (own), Raven guard(own) or DA(own) for some big game hunting help.
I really like DA plasma ceptors with WftDA. IMHO they are point for point the most damaging thing available to marines but they are so squishy. I'm in love with scouts so this is a plus for BA, DA and extra points for the -1 to hit RG ones. Once the Xiphon gets blown up turn 1-2 it's nice to be able to drop some really powerful anything killers. Dropping down the storm bolter team backed by the plasma ceptors kills anything w/in 12-18"
BA captain slammy is awesome but death company fill the same role as the kill teams and I haven't had good luck with sang guard. They are so CP hungry and nearly as squishy as the DA (once they show up on the battle field I'm lucky if they stick around for a second turn). I could just go memphy and 2 captains with some scouts but the second captain just isn't as good without the no-overwatch relic. But captain slammy is more points per wound efficient than even the DA plasma ceptors while being harder to get that efficiency out of and works best against a smaller band of enemies.
Or I could go with my trusty raven guard, my favorite scouts, a stalker tank (cheap t8 anti-flyer) and a RG leviathan. I could drop the stalker and the stalker rifle team for a couple dev squads (hb+ML for hellfire+flakk strats) that 6ish mortal wounds is a game changer some times. The leviathan and xiphon seem like a really good combo (hard to get rid of them both turn 1).
The mobility of custodes is awesome but I can't fit more than a patrol (2x bike caps, 4 guard, 4 bikes and maybe the -1 to hit vex) and @ str 7 they just don't punch big things hard enough and all those storm bolters seem redundant with the volume of fire I'm putting out with the kill teams. I love the mobility and the counter melee punch of the guard is nice but 0 cp hurts. These guys draw all the enemy fire so my teams end up putting in work. Once the beta rules for telemons go live I'd love to get this guy (love the model) in the mix but then I'd pretty much be obligated to run the guard CP battery and I'm not looking forward to adding to my "to paint" pile...
IG. Castling up with kill teams and guard protecting some manticores seems very effective. End up with tons of CP, I just don't own any and it seems kind of boring to play with/against. I probably should just bite the bullet and buy/paint a guard CP battery but that feels so net-listy to me and I'm really praying they nerf the aquilla and grand strat BS.
Those are my thoughts. All over the place I know. I have too many SM models and I think all of them are good options. I don't have the time to play enough games with the various combos to really see how they work on the table so I'm hoping ya'll have some experience I can draw from.
bananathug wrote: 2x primarius teams w/ a couple aggressors (2-3 depending on point availability)
1x team w/ storm bolters (deepstriking, these guys are sooo good)
1x team w/ stalker rifles
Xiphon
I don't see anything that allows this. Also, battlescribe does not allow it.
bananathug wrote: 2x primarius teams w/ a couple aggressors (2-3 depending on point availability)
1x team w/ storm bolters (deepstriking, these guys are sooo good)
1x team w/ stalker rifles
Xiphon
I don't see anything that allows this. Also, battlescribe does not allow it.
Marmatag wrote: Can deathwatch take FW Xiphons? I don't see anything that allows this. Also, battlescribe does not allow it.
It is covered by the very first question in the Imperial Armour FAQ.
Thank you. For 240 points these things are straight busted and I would bring 2 easily. You can use a ton of the DW stratagems on them since they have the deathwatch keyword.
grouchoben wrote: Aside from Doctrines, what did you have in mind Marmatag?
I believe all the anti-xenos ones can affect it. Some would obviously be better than others, but even just the Doctrines would be fantastic. Wound T8 on 2s, potentially rerolling 1s?
Xiphons are the price I wish Land Raiders were lol
Ok, after having thought about it a lot, I think this is a much better list. As much as I like the levi's they just wont pull as much weight as their cost demands. This list however seems really strong as long as your opponent isn't tailored againgst it.
If they don't have a lot of dedicated anti-meq firepower they are gonna have trouble. Enough bodies that you can sacrifice the guardsmen with no real loss as a screen. Enough heavy firepower to deal with knights. lots of ways to deal with durable melee rushers. Very good TAC list I feel.
bananathug wrote: 2x primarius teams w/ a couple aggressors (2-3 depending on point availability)
1x team w/ storm bolters (deepstriking, these guys are sooo good)
1x team w/ stalker rifles
Xiphon
I don't see anything that allows this. Also, battlescribe does not allow it.
all FW stuff was broken out into a separate catalog because of the number of marine factions using them, set it as a child detachment in force selection.
Ok, after having thought about it a lot, I think this is a much better list. As much as I like the levi's they just wont pull as much weight as their cost demands. This list however seems really strong as long as your opponent isn't tailored againgst it.
If they don't have a lot of dedicated anti-meq firepower they are gonna have trouble. Enough bodies that you can sacrifice the guardsmen with no real loss as a screen. Enough heavy firepower to deal with knights. lots of ways to deal with durable melee rushers. Very good TAC list I feel.
Throw those Xiphons into an air superiority detachment for an extra 1 CP.
I really like what you have there. For awhile I was solving my anti-tank issues with the Leman Russ, but I think I'd much rather have the Xiphon. Looks like the air superiority wing xiphon bundle is about 330 dollars in my local currency for exactly the pieces I'd need. I've been holding off from Forgeworld for so long simply because I've seen them get rebalanced HARD the other way, so I'm still not yet sure whether its worth it...
bananathug wrote: 2x primarius teams w/ a couple aggressors (2-3 depending on point availability)
1x team w/ storm bolters (deepstriking, these guys are sooo good)
1x team w/ stalker rifles
Xiphon
I don't see anything that allows this. Also, battlescribe does not allow it.
Lose the Stalker Bolt Rifles. They're terrible.
Stalker bolt rifles aren't meant to deepstrike. Spend 200 points for 2 units that have 36" range ap -2 guns that wound on 2's. How are they terrible? They're good back line support.
bananathug wrote: 2x primarius teams w/ a couple aggressors (2-3 depending on point availability)
1x team w/ storm bolters (deepstriking, these guys are sooo good)
1x team w/ stalker rifles
Xiphon
I don't see anything that allows this. Also, battlescribe does not allow it.
Lose the Stalker Bolt Rifles. They're terrible.
Stalker bolt rifles aren't meant to deepstrike. Spend 200 points for 2 units that have 36" range ap -2 guns that wound on 2's. How are they terrible? They're good back line support.
It's 220 points for two units.
And they're often considered a bad investment because they're just a single immobile shot. Bolt rifles are cheaper, provide greater mobility, and more importantly can double tap threats that try to disrupt your backline with deep strike or high mobility units.
They'll fit a very specific role, for instance if you want a unit sitting in the back stapled to an objective pumping out hellfire rounds from 36'' with AP -2 while never moving for any reason ever. They'll be more expensive than the tactically more flexible bolt rifles, but you can make it work. For me, units trying to disrupt my backfield really show how woefully undergunned the stalkers can be.
bananathug wrote: 2x primarius teams w/ a couple aggressors (2-3 depending on point availability)
1x team w/ storm bolters (deepstriking, these guys are sooo good)
1x team w/ stalker rifles
Xiphon
I don't see anything that allows this. Also, battlescribe does not allow it.
Lose the Stalker Bolt Rifles. They're terrible.
Stalker bolt rifles aren't meant to deepstrike. Spend 200 points for 2 units that have 36" range ap -2 guns that wound on 2's. How are they terrible? They're good back line support.
That's 5 shots for 100 points. That's terrible. If you want something similar to camp in your backfield, Vets have 2 shots at the price of only having one wound. In cover that's worth it though. 10 shots with 5 wounds > 5 shots with 10 wounds, especially when you can't guarantee that the Intercessors will use each wound separately instead of taking a Plasma hit.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: That's 5 shots for 100 points. That's terrible. If you want something similar to camp in your backfield, Vets have 2 shots at the price of only having one wound. In cover that's worth it though. 10 shots with 5 wounds > 5 shots with 10 wounds, especially when you can't guarantee that the Intercessors will use each wound separately instead of taking a Plasma hit.
I like that thinking.
My issue is finding enough storm bolters to kit everyone out.
Digging up some from the terminators I had made for close combat so the guns are free to cut off at the wrist.
Do not forget the free chainswords.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: That's 5 shots for 100 points. That's terrible. If you want something similar to camp in your backfield, Vets have 2 shots at the price of only having one wound. In cover that's worth it though. 10 shots with 5 wounds > 5 shots with 10 wounds, especially when you can't guarantee that the Intercessors will use each wound separately instead of taking a Plasma hit.
I like that thinking.
My issue is finding enough storm bolters to kit everyone out.
Digging up some from the terminators I had made for close combat so the guns are free to cut off at the wrist.
Do not forget the free chainswords.
I'm just using regular Bolters, as my opponents know I never use Tactical Marines. So all my Mk3 dudes are Counts As Deathwatch with Storm Bolters and my Volkite Culverins are Counts As Frag Cannons instead of Grav Cannons. There isn't a point to me using Sternguard anymore, so my opponents are more than understanding and don't care as long as I continue to keep trying and make the rest of my force instead of always borrowing their models haha!
bananathug wrote: 2x primarius teams w/ a couple aggressors (2-3 depending on point availability)
1x team w/ storm bolters (deepstriking, these guys are sooo good)
1x team w/ stalker rifles
Xiphon
I don't see anything that allows this. Also, battlescribe does not allow it.
Lose the Stalker Bolt Rifles. They're terrible.
Stalker bolt rifles aren't meant to deepstrike. Spend 200 points for 2 units that have 36" range ap -2 guns that wound on 2's. How are they terrible? They're good back line support.
It's 220 points for two units.
And they're often considered a bad investment because they're just a single immobile shot. Bolt rifles are cheaper, provide greater mobility, and more importantly can double tap threats that try to disrupt your backline with deep strike or high mobility units.
They'll fit a very specific role, for instance if you want a unit sitting in the back stapled to an objective pumping out hellfire rounds from 36'' with AP -2 while never moving for any reason ever. They'll be more expensive than the tactically more flexible bolt rifles, but you can make it work. For me, units trying to disrupt my backfield really show how woefully undergunned the stalkers can be.
I think I'd like to take normal Veteran Kill Team with Stalker Pattern Boltgun for that role. Heavy 2 is better than Heavy 1 and 1 point better APimho.
bananathug wrote: 2x primarius teams w/ a couple aggressors (2-3 depending on point availability)
1x team w/ storm bolters (deepstriking, these guys are sooo good)
1x team w/ stalker rifles
Xiphon
I don't see anything that allows this. Also, battlescribe does not allow it.
Lose the Stalker Bolt Rifles. They're terrible.
Stalker bolt rifles aren't meant to deepstrike. Spend 200 points for 2 units that have 36" range ap -2 guns that wound on 2's. How are they terrible? They're good back line support.
It's 220 points for two units.
And they're often considered a bad investment because they're just a single immobile shot. Bolt rifles are cheaper, provide greater mobility, and more importantly can double tap threats that try to disrupt your backline with deep strike or high mobility units.
They'll fit a very specific role, for instance if you want a unit sitting in the back stapled to an objective pumping out hellfire rounds from 36'' with AP -2 while never moving for any reason ever. They'll be more expensive than the tactically more flexible bolt rifles, but you can make it work. For me, units trying to disrupt my backfield really show how woefully undergunned the stalkers can be.
I think I'd like to take normal Veteran Kill Team with Stalker Pattern Boltgun for that role. Heavy 2 is better than Heavy 1 and 1 point better APimho.
Throw a storm shield in for added durability. Stalkers are huge helps. They hold down the fort while everything else are in Corvus or deepstrike.
Hey everyone, am looking for some advice, am somewhat paralysed by choice! I'm looking to build an all rounders style list. Have got the choice from mostly unbuilt kits:
Watch master
Watch captain- built with storm bolter and xeno phase blade
Kill team cassius
6 vets built with storm bolters and storm shields, one with infernus bolter
10 more vets
5 vanguard vets
5 terminator - built with storm bolter and power sword sgt. 2 storm bolter and chainfist, 1 assault cannon and one cyclone.
4 bikers
10 intecessors
10 rievers
3 aggressors
Repulsor
2 blackstars, 1 built with assault cannons, hurricane bolter and rocket launchers
I think I'd like to take normal Veteran Kill Team with Stalker Pattern Boltgun for that role. Heavy 2 is better than Heavy 1 and 1 point better APimho.
Throw a storm shield in for added durability. Stalkers are huge helps. They hold down the fort while everything else are in Corvus or deepstrike.
That's a good unit to attach a biker/vanguard combat squad to that can break off and grab objectives while the snipers hold the fort. Cyclone terminator isn't a terrible call here either.
2x Lascannon Chaplain Dreadnoughts, 6-10 Hellblasters sprinkled into Fortis Kill teams, and a Storm Cannon/Claw Leviathan dreadnought a decent start for Anti-Vehicle?
I've been thinking of running 3x Blood Angel Smash Captains as well. Also a bare bones Scion Battalion could hold some sacrificial plasma/meltas? Not sure if I want to run them as pure screening without special weapons or suicide drops with melta/plasma.
You’re probably better off running them barebones en masse. That’s an awful lot of fancy weapons and characters with not much in the way of bodies to stop assaults and smites.
Hey guys, I've been lurking for while now at some Deathwatch tactics, and it really seems that the codex lacks a bit of punch against armoured targets, so what do you suggest as a at-unit for deathwatch (possible allies also)?
I also made a list for deathwatch, with Astra Militarum allies (referring to previous posts, I think that Deathwatch army is really meant to be used as a part of soup-list).
Total 1994 (18cp, -1 for extra relic, -3 for teleport)
Any thoughts or suggestions? Strategy is to deploy astra battalions as two firebases at opposite corners, and deep strike deathwatch at the enemy turn 2.
I would lose the Heavy Thunder Hammer. It's a terrible weapon as is because anything using it only has two attacks. Why our HQ can't get it is beyond me.
So looking for some help on a DW list. Doing a team tournament, both players have a 1000 points to use. My brother is going with Imperial Knights, Paladin, 2 Warglaives and 1 Helverin.
I'm wanting to do DW as support for them.
I have a Corvus, WM, Artemis, Cassius Squad, 15 Veterans, plus can get whatever I need to fill out the points. Have thought about adding another Knight, either a Gallant or Warden, or some Assassins.
Thoughts or ideas, I know DW are expensive points wise for what you get. I like the fluff so not worried about winning as having fun with whatever games we play.
The aggressors are the shooty variant. Inceptor I am unsure the best way to run it between plasma or bolters, bolters are cheaper so I will probably end up doing that. The whole unit is T5, which is a nice bonus.
The am battalion is just the usual scum 195 point command point battery.
For the Custodes vs. BA will depend on criticism I get here. I want some amount of melee options. Custodes provide that with durability if I take a patrol with bikers. Alternatively I can take BA smash captains with scouts and devastators for some higher power shooting and mortal wound spam via stratagems.
The aggressors are the shooty variant. Inceptor I am unsure the best way to run it between plasma or bolters, bolters are cheaper so I will probably end up doing that. The whole unit is T5, which is a nice bonus.
The am battalion is just the usual scum 195 point command point battery.
For the Custodes vs. BA will depend on criticism I get here. I want some amount of melee options. Custodes provide that with durability if I take a patrol with bikers. Alternatively I can take BA smash captains with scouts and devastators for some higher power shooting and mortal wound spam via stratagems.
I'd give those Intercessors with the Aggressors the auto bolt rifle to make sure they can just advance literally everywhere.
I'd then consider the BA battalion for a couple Smashf*cker captains and some scouts. The custodes bikes are good at shooting the same gak your DW are, so you'll just be adding to your strengths rather than plugging holes. The BA with captains, devastators, and scouts will give you high damage melee options, early deployment board control, ranged AT threats, and a bigger quotient of edgy teenage vampire angst.
What melee weapons do you give to your Veterans if you don't know what you are playing against?
I am leaning towards Axes but wanted to get other opinions as well.
Chainswords. They're free and my vets don't want to be in combat for long anyway, so I personally value the extra attack over killyness.
Pretty much this. If you concern combat, have one guy being the Black Shield, and give him a Thurnder Hammer, annnd a chainsword as well. So he can choose either 3A with S8 AP-3, or 4A with S4 AP-
So m'brothers, how many of you are now looking longingly at a Knight SH Detachment as a natural foil for your DW army?
They seem to do an awful lot for us... Generate 3 cp; big distractions to let our more vulnerable units off the hook for the first one or two turns; massive CC threat; Helverins are cheap and extremely gunny; keep our drops low to try and get that +1 on the initiative roll; bring heavy weapons, something we're missing a little at present.
I've just finished painting up my Warden/Gallant in DW colours, and will probably take a couple of warglaives or helverins soon enough. Anyway, thought some of you might be interested in seeing the chap:
grouchoben wrote: So m'brothers, how many of you are now looking longingly at a Knight SH Detachment as a natural foil for your DW army?
They seem to do an awful lot for us... Generate 3 cp; big distractions to let our more vulnerable units off the hook for the first one or two turns; massive CC threat; Helverins are cheap and extremely gunny; keep our drops low to try and get that +1 on the initiative roll; bring heavy weapons, something we're missing a little at present.
I've just finished painting up my Warden/Gallant in DW colours, and will probably take a couple of warglaives or helverins soon enough. Anyway, thought some of you might be interested in seeing the chap:
Looks ace, bud. I am also considering a Knight detachment. I've been playing with AM as my allied choice for nearly everything Imperium since their codex landed, so I'm pretty bored with them at this point. Knights will feel a whole lot different I think.
I've been running this guy in my lists for a few months:
Spoiler:
He worked out okay, but generally was a little too squishy and didn't have the best output due to the lack of rerolls. Post DW codex, I've dropped him for a Leviathan. The Knight codex piqued my curiosity again, but the CP drain didn't quite seem worth it, but I started building out a Knight lance that I wouldn't necessarily run with my DW.
Post FAQ though, its back on the to try list. Being able to add a couple of Helvirens to the above generates enough additional CP to pay for the Relic Gatling and a 4+ Invul plus a free Ion rotation. I'm not sure its better than my Leviathan, but I'm definitely interested in finding out.
On the subject - can anyone make an argument for taking armigers instead of helverins with their DW? I think a Gallant and 2 basic armigers is the cheapest SHD knights can field, and they let you take a specialised CC house like Mortan or Terryn or such, but Helverins just seem such a good fit for my lists that I think I'm going to have to go with the herd...
I assume you mean Warglaives? Helverins are Armigers afterall.
I think the Warglaive is better than people give it credit for. It gets a bad rep because it got playtime to find it underwhelming immediately prior to getting buffed in the codex while also overshadowed by new shinies. It hits hard and the new melee profile is a nice boost. If you want your little guys to get between your big guy and the enemy, the Warglaive is easily the better option. The Helverin actually wants to stand in the back, hiding behind its big brother.
And thanks! Looking forward to adding more like him. Currently working on the Helverins but after that I'll be painting up a pair from Renegade.
Warglaives make great use of the unit's speed, and are pretty neutral in terms of what you have them do, which is great. But who's gonna say 'no' to that 8d3 D3 Helverin dakka for 250pts?
I guess I could try making a blustuff mold of the warglaive loadout from a friend.
A List I've been building up has consisted of a Valiant and two CC Armigers. The question is the debatebetween what Battalion I want to build for the DW side of the list. A Corvus going in deep to pick off characters with a Kill Team plus Null Zone Librarian to shut down anything with an invuln. plus two stalker boltgun teams that stayed in the back or a watch master with two units of intercessors mixed with hellblasters deepstriking in to wipe out most things off the board with two stalker teams to sit in the back with a watch captain or grab the librarian with a jump pack. I'm conflicted. What do you guys think?
So I played a 1k tournament yesterday at my FLGS with a pure deathwatch army. The tournament was 4 rds of varying mission and deployment types. I tabled my first 3 opponents but unfortunately had to leave before the final game on top table because of a family matter. However several guys there who saw me play said I would have beat the guy who won. I was the only undefeated player going into final rd. He was a custodes player who had to play a guy I had tabled easily. My first opponent was Chaos emperors children, followed by dark angels, with the third having been ultramarines. Would liked to have fought a Xenos player to use their specific stratagems.
Here is my list below:
Primaris Watch Captain [6 PL, 98pts]: Power sword, Tome of the Ectoclades
. Master-crafted auto bolt rifle & bolt pistol: Bolt Pistol, Master-crafted Auto bolt rifle
Watch Master [7 PL, 130pts]: Castellan of the Black Vault, The Beacon Angelis, Warlord
+ Troops +
Intercessors [15 PL, 290pts] . Aggressor . . Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Grenade Launcher: Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets, Fragstorm Grenade Launchers
. Aggressor . . Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Grenade Launcher: Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets, Fragstorm Grenade Launchers
. Aggressor . . Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Grenade Launcher: Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets, Fragstorm Grenade Launchers
. Aggressor . . Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Grenade Launcher: Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets, Fragstorm Grenade Launchers
. Aggressor . . Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Grenade Launcher: Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets, Fragstorm Grenade Launchers
. Intercessor: Auto Bolt Rifle, Bolt Pistol
. Intercessor: Auto Bolt Rifle, Bolt Pistol
. Intercessor: Auto Bolt Rifle, Bolt Pistol
. Intercessor: Auto Bolt Rifle, Bolt Pistol
. Intercessor Sergeant: Auto Bolt Rifle, Bolt Pistol
Automatically Appended Next Post: During the tournament I thought of a straetegy for redeploying a nasty killteam from elsewhere on the battlefield and into the frag cannons sweet spot range. I call it the Deathwatch sling shot. So yesterday I Deepstruck an Aquila killteam with 3 frag cannons,1 infernus heavy bolter, assault cannon termie and a couple bolters. They killed a predator on one side of opponent deployment zone. Next turn I move and advance my watchmaster up and then use the beacon to slingshot the kill team in front of him 6" and into range of another predator and some characters for the flamer profile.
Has anyone tried running the primaris unit straight, rather then mixed squads with intercessors?
The one that caught my eye was reivers. Mixed they loose a lot of their deployment and mobility options. But as a solo squad, it seems you could just plonk down some special ammo love in some backfield location without having to burn a CP.
If you are willing to spend the CP you don’t need this, but it seems like DW are going to burn them fast, so being able to save a few might be worth it.
Inceptors might be worth it for some post deployment mobility.
With combat squads you can kinda get this, and still be troops. Loose out on the sarge though, who has to be an intercessor.
That tactic works even better when you put the Beacon Angelis on a TH/SS Jumppack Captain. You can use his ability to move 12" and jump over screens to your advantage.
Also, having a minimal bike squad with a Stormbolter/SS on the sergeant with a DW teleport homer makes for a second redeploy option for the veteran squad with terminator. Such a bike squad is great value in a DW army IMHO.
Nevelon wrote: Has anyone tried running the primaris unit straight, rather then mixed squads with intercessors?
The one that caught my eye was reivers. Mixed they loose a lot of their deployment and mobility options. But as a solo squad, it seems you could just plonk down some special ammo love in some backfield location without having to burn a CP.
If you are willing to spend the CP you don’t need this, but it seems like DW are going to burn them fast, so being able to save a few might be worth it.
Inceptors might be worth it for some post deployment mobility.
With combat squads you can kinda get this, and still be troops. Loose out on the sarge though, who has to be an intercessor.
Hellblasters and Aggressors work better as solo squads with Dark Angels and Raven Guard respectively (with Raven Guard basically helping everyone and anyone), but I see merit behind Reivers. Their Heavy Bolt Pistols are easily one of the best weapons to use Special Ammo and their weight of attacks for the points is decent for bullying screen units.
Inceptors I see just for charging things that might charge you first, but I don't think you need to be Deathwatch for that. At minimum I did try Auto Bolt Rifles + a single Aggressor before I went camping this week and had some okay success. The speed was actually kinda noticeable.
<snip>
...but I see merit behind Reivers. Their Heavy Bolt Pistols are easily one of the best weapons to use Special Ammo and their weight of attacks for the points is decent for bullying screen units.
My first thought was to go for the carbines. Twice the shots, twice the range. I figured that would be better then the -1 AP. Points are a little rough. 4 points vs. the free knife. Pistol range is still good for dropping in at 9”.
Been awhile since I've posted here since I took a month+ off from the game. I got some questions for Deathwatch boys, since that's the army I'm still planning on collecting when I hop back in the pond.
The codex has been out for a bit now, so what are people considering the best choices? Are stock intercessors and storm bolter vets still the kings? Have Deathwatch been performing at all in tournaments? Anti-tank seemed like an issue when it first dropped, so how are people handling that now?
Lastly I have a rules question: Can I deep strike someone with the beacon angelis, then use the beacon on the same turn to pull someone on the board to the deep striking unit? They both happen at the end of your turn, and the Sequencing rule leads me to believe you can do this, but I figured I'd hear from you guys.
<snip>
...but I see merit behind Reivers. Their Heavy Bolt Pistols are easily one of the best weapons to use Special Ammo and their weight of attacks for the points is decent for bullying screen units.
My first thought was to go for the carbines. Twice the shots, twice the range. I figured that would be better then the -1 AP. Points are a little rough. 4 points vs. the free knife. Pistol range is still good for dropping in at 9”.
I'd just use Intercessors at that point. Even with a Deep Strike with no Stratagem required, that's far too expensive for 10 shots.
Someone convinced me that I needed to swap some of my Agressors for a Redemptor Dread. Now I'm looking at the datasheet and I'm not certain I made a good choice. Is this thing really any good?
stewe128 wrote: A List I've been building up has consisted of a Valiant and two CC Armigers. The question is the debatebetween what Battalion I want to build for the DW side of the list. A Corvus going in deep to pick off characters with a Kill Team plus Null Zone Librarian to shut down anything with an invuln. plus two stalker boltgun teams that stayed in the back or a watch master with two units of intercessors mixed with hellblasters deepstriking in to wipe out most things off the board with two stalker teams to sit in the back with a watch captain or grab the librarian with a jump pack. I'm conflicted. What do you guys think?
Putting Knights in a Deathwatch list is fun and fairly effective, but its two CP hungry things that need Guard for more CP and makes the points for the DW a little tight. I have a really hard time fitting in a Corvus personally and tend to fall back more on Primaris Kill Teams. At the very least, I find I deliver my Veterans via Razorback instead to trim the costs a bit, but overall Primaris seem the better option when points are tight.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ChargerIIC wrote: Someone convinced me that I needed to swap some of my Agressors for a Redemptor Dread. Now I'm looking at the datasheet and I'm not certain I made a good choice. Is this thing really any good?
Not really. Like a lot of Dreadnoughts, you're paying a lot for both its melee and ranged capabilities but really don't have the means of making the most of either. I find Dreadnoughts are great, but only if they've got a dedicated melee or ranged gameplan.
No, it is terrible and pretty much outclassed by any of the decent dread options (leviathan -> dredeo -> contemptor/venerable) which in turn are outclassed by the knights and armigers...
SputnikDX wrote: Been awhile since I've posted here since I took a month+ off from the game. I got some questions for Deathwatch boys, since that's the army I'm still planning on collecting when I hop back in the pond.
The codex has been out for a bit now, so what are people considering the best choices? Are stock intercessors and storm bolter vets still the kings? Have Deathwatch been performing at all in tournaments? Anti-tank seemed like an issue when it first dropped, so how are people handling that now?
Lastly I have a rules question: Can I deep strike someone with the beacon angelis, then use the beacon on the same turn to pull someone on the board to the deep striking unit? They both happen at the end of your turn, and the Sequencing rule leads me to believe you can do this, but I figured I'd hear from you guys.
Vets definitely like a mix of Storm Bolters, Storm Shields and Frag Cannons. A Heavy Bolter can be nice for Mortal Wounds as well.
Primaris Bolt Rifles are great and the mixed kill teams function quite well for the Primaris models. Taking Intercessors is the core of my list and I add Aggressors/Hellblasters/Inceptors as I have points available, not shying away from maxing them out at all.
Yes, you can drop in and Beacon something to you. Alternatively, you can just fly the Jump Pack captain up and do it turn 1.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
bananathug wrote: No, it is terrible and pretty much outclassed by any of the decent dread options (leviathan -> dredeo -> contemptor/venerable) which in turn are outclassed by the knights and armigers...
I'm not really convinced Knights beat out Dreads in a Deathwatch list. Access to the DW rerolls and strategems is a pretty huge buff to them, IMO.
Storm vets are so good. 8 with a shield VV (3 shields in total) have done outstanding work for me. Along with a jump cap with TH, this is my go to corvus loadout now.
I like assault intercessors with 1 aggressor for 142pts. 10 shots out to 30", 20 in 18" and 6+1d6" move every round.
I find myself using jumpcaps with THs all the time, due to the current knight infestation.
i posted this in the painting and modeling forum. figured i would here too:
What would be options for building 30 Deathwatch Vets with storm Bolters ? What kits and or after market weapons would be the most cost effective way to build them ? The death watch kill team box looks to be lite on SBs.
Would going with Grey Knight Strike teams be the best ? Do other companies make a weapon that normal Tac squads can hold that looks like a SB ?
I have a bunch of DW shoulder Pads that i can get from the upgrade sprue... just not sure where to go from there.
zedsdead wrote: i posted this in the painting and modeling forum. figured i would here too:
What would be options for building 30 Deathwatch Vets with storm Bolters ? What kits and or after market weapons would be the most cost effective way to build them ? The death watch kill team box looks to be lite on SBs.
You could always John Woo regular bolters.
Failing that, the cataphracti terminator kit combi bolters (it's a relic storm bolter sarge!) can fit onto marinelets, and since Lightning Cats aren't that uncommon you might get lucky on ebay.
zedsdead wrote: i posted this in the painting and modeling forum. figured i would here too:
What would be options for building 30 Deathwatch Vets with storm Bolters ? What kits and or after market weapons would be the most cost effective way to build them ? The death watch kill team box looks to be lite on SBs.
Would going with Grey Knight Strike teams be the best ? Do other companies make a weapon that normal Tac squads can hold that looks like a SB ?
I have a bunch of DW shoulder Pads that i can get from the upgrade sprue... just not sure where to go from there.
Grey Knights can work, and will be the way I think I'll proceed.
From Forgeworld, the Alpha Legion Headhunters use combi-bolters. Check em out.
The other GW option is the Sternguard box, but there are only two. Two more than the DW kit though!
Shapeways can fill your need as well, but I was concerned they'd come out particularly rough with that telltale 3d printing texture so I haven't tried it yet.
<snip>
...but I see merit behind Reivers. Their Heavy Bolt Pistols are easily one of the best weapons to use Special Ammo and their weight of attacks for the points is decent for bullying screen units.
My first thought was to go for the carbines. Twice the shots, twice the range. I figured that would be better then the -1 AP. Points are a little rough. 4 points vs. the free knife. Pistol range is still good for dropping in at 9”.
I'd just use Intercessors at that point. Even with a Deep Strike with no Stratagem required, that's far too expensive for 10 shots.
Is it? Reivers with no chutes are 115, Intercessors are 105. For an additional 2/model, you don't have to waste CPs on them. You also get a pistol weapon that's actually useful. You could DS right next to a unit of terminators and light them up with -3AP pistol shots.
<snip>
...but I see merit behind Reivers. Their Heavy Bolt Pistols are easily one of the best weapons to use Special Ammo and their weight of attacks for the points is decent for bullying screen units.
My first thought was to go for the carbines. Twice the shots, twice the range. I figured that would be better then the -1 AP. Points are a little rough. 4 points vs. the free knife. Pistol range is still good for dropping in at 9”.
I'd just use Intercessors at that point. Even with a Deep Strike with no Stratagem required, that's far too expensive for 10 shots.
Is it? Reivers with no chutes are 115, Intercessors are 105. For an additional 2/model, you don't have to waste CPs on them. You also get a pistol weapon that's actually useful. You could DS right next to a unit of terminators and light them up with -3AP pistol shots.
Well for 125 points a reiver squad is rather bad. They don't kill anything in melee and are inferior to intercessors when it comes to shooting and melee (Due to the power sword and/or chainsword the intercessor sergeant can take). A more effective intercessor unit is going to be using the superior bolt rifle so that makes them 100 points that can be used to screen valuable units like aggressors or hellblasters all the while being objective secured. The 100 point intercessor base unit has a lot of scaling use where as the 125 reiver squad has no upward mobility and does not really do anything for the points you pay. Their guns should cost 1 point and they would be a solid unit choice or to atleast be used in an intercessor kill team.
Anyone run their vanilla marines as Deathwatch? Ive started a scythes of the emperor army and thought that I could model them and use them as Deathwatch but paint them in normal chapter colours.
Thinking it would be appropriate considering their anti xenos background.
Rogerio134134 wrote: Anyone run their vanilla marines as Deathwatch? Ive started a scythes of the emperor army and thought that I could model them and use them as Deathwatch but paint them in normal chapter colours.
Thinking it would be appropriate considering their anti xenos background.
I use my angry marines as deathwatch.
Its imperium, for my buddies only wisywig count.
zedsdead wrote:i posted this in the painting and modeling forum. figured i would here too:
What would be options for building 30 Deathwatch Vets with storm Bolters ? What kits and or after market weapons would be the most cost effective way to build them ? The death watch kill team box looks to be lite on SBs.
Would going with Grey Knight Strike teams be the best ? Do other companies make a weapon that normal Tac squads can hold that looks like a SB ?
I have a bunch of DW shoulder Pads that i can get from the upgrade sprue... just not sure where to go from there.
Primark G wrote: https://www.shapeways.com/product/A7D2L6ZE4/10x-jolly-rodger-blitzpistol-5-left-5-right?li=shareProduct
<snip>
...but I see merit behind Reivers. Their Heavy Bolt Pistols are easily one of the best weapons to use Special Ammo and their weight of attacks for the points is decent for bullying screen units.
My first thought was to go for the carbines. Twice the shots, twice the range. I figured that would be better then the -1 AP. Points are a little rough. 4 points vs. the free knife. Pistol range is still good for dropping in at 9”.
I'd just use Intercessors at that point. Even with a Deep Strike with no Stratagem required, that's far too expensive for 10 shots.
Is it? Reivers with no chutes are 115, Intercessors are 105. For an additional 2/model, you don't have to waste CPs on them. You also get a pistol weapon that's actually useful. You could DS right next to a unit of terminators and light them up with -3AP pistol shots.
No you can't. They're AP -1 baseline, so you'd need to fire Vengeance rounds to hit AP -3, which reduces the range of their 12" pistol by 3". Since you have to deploy from deep strike more than 9" away from enemy units - not exactly 9" - they'll be out of range.
You could get 5 shots at AP -2 though. Intercessors wouldn't be out of range and they'd fire twice as many shots at AP -3 with bolt rifles. Now, nobody would normally spend a CP to drop 5 Intercessors all by themselves, so the comparison is skewed right from the beginning. If you really value native deep strike that much, then have at it.
I just ordered 20 of them and they made the process of getting SB's SOOO much easier -- especially with how many I wanted.
Have you received them yet? I'm eager to hear how they hold up quality wise. I'm always concerned that the 3D printed items will have that ugly ribbing or whatever that obscures the detail and makes them look really rough. Heard a lot of bad stories from folks with experience with shapeways.
For hammers I like Xiphons, 5/5 heltercessor squads dsing, 9 SB vets with a VV, captains with THs, Venator Sicarians and knight detachments. For anvils... wait, do we have anvils??
I just ordered 20 of them and they made the process of getting SB's SOOO much easier -- especially with how many I wanted.
Have you received them yet? I'm eager to hear how they hold up quality wise. I'm always concerned that the 3D printed items will have that ugly ribbing or whatever that obscures the detail and makes them look really rough. Heard a lot of bad stories from folks with experience with shapeways.
I've gotten the Pop the Monkey DW shoulder icons and the 'Random Chapter Shoulder Icons' packs. These were clearly printed via SLP and don't have ribbing as such, although there is a slightly rough texture. After some testing, I was able to determine that the roughness means you can apply sharpies like paint without a primer, but still need to use primer to get paint on there. Quality is pretty good, altough I ran into a horrible sprue design problem in the random chapter shoulderpad icons pack.
One key item of note is that while the detail can be higher than GW plastic, it is much more brittle - like working with Finecast without all the random supports.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
_Ness wrote: So reading through this topic and the 1d4chan article, im curious to know what your "hammer" and "anvil" (nonsplit) troops look like.
im quite new to deathwatch and still unsure what is should put in my squads and hope some more experienced players could help me get started.
For an anvil I use 5-10 man intercessors squads, they are well priced, have all the options, and don't leave you whimpering if they get shot off the board. For a hammer I've been using Inceptors and hellblasters. I think the hellblasters are a better choice than the inceptors right now as the extra AP-1 is occasionally worth it completly. I do like to use agressors in the squads as well, but you'd need to go with Boltstorm aggressors and not the flamestorm kind - the flamers aggressors rarely get to shoot their weapons.
Other interesting formations I've seen:
* 3 oldmarine bikers with a pair of Vanguard Vets. Zooms across the board, shoots, charges, falls back and zooms and shoots somewhere else. It's probably the only really mobile SPace Marine unit worth fielding
* oldmarine vet squads with double frag cannons. I once was forced by an opponent into a situation where my entire army had to charge a double frag cannon squad in order to prevent the game from ending. 2 dead characters and a total of 12 dead intercessors later, nothing had managed to get into melee. It's horrific what that much dice can do.
<snip>
...but I see merit behind Reivers. Their Heavy Bolt Pistols are easily one of the best weapons to use Special Ammo and their weight of attacks for the points is decent for bullying screen units.
My first thought was to go for the carbines. Twice the shots, twice the range. I figured that would be better then the -1 AP. Points are a little rough. 4 points vs. the free knife. Pistol range is still good for dropping in at 9”.
I'd just use Intercessors at that point. Even with a Deep Strike with no Stratagem required, that's far too expensive for 10 shots.
Is it? Reivers with no chutes are 115, Intercessors are 105. For an additional 2/model, you don't have to waste CPs on them. You also get a pistol weapon that's actually useful. You could DS right next to a unit of terminators and light them up with -3AP pistol shots.
No you can't. They're AP -1 baseline, so you'd need to fire Vengeance rounds to hit AP -3, which reduces the range of their 12" pistol by 3". Since you have to deploy from deep strike more than 9" away from enemy units - not exactly 9" - they'll be out of range.
You could get 5 shots at AP -2 though. Intercessors wouldn't be out of range and they'd fire twice as many shots at AP -3 with bolt rifles. Now, nobody would normally spend a CP to drop 5 Intercessors all by themselves, so the comparison is skewed right from the beginning. If you really value native deep strike that much, then have at it.
I think he's talking about taking Bolter Carbine Reivers. They'd drop in at Assault 2, AP-2, with no loss of CP. Of course they are elite slots, so you might be giving up enough points to lose yourself a CP-generating detachment if you aren't careful.
* oldmarine vet squads with double frag cannons. I once was forced by an opponent into a situation where my entire army had to charge a double frag cannon squad in order to prevent the game from ending. 2 dead characters and a total of 12 dead intercessors later, nothing had managed to get into melee. It's horrific what that much dice can do.
I had an opponent for whatever feel compelled to charge them. Lost a squad, proceeded to declare a charge with the next, lost it to. Started to declare a charge with a third before I begged him to stop.
I just ordered 20 of them and they made the process of getting SB's SOOO much easier -- especially with how many I wanted.
Have you received them yet? I'm eager to hear how they hold up quality wise. I'm always concerned that the 3D printed items will have that ugly ribbing or whatever that obscures the detail and makes them look really rough. Heard a lot of bad stories from folks with experience with shapeways.
I did! Got them last week -- overall the quality is okay, but they are a little "rough/grainy" in a couple spots (mainly around the hand/grip), which isn't a huge issue for me. No ribbing or screen door effects and they will serve well for their use. If I find the time later, I'll post some images of them to give a better idea of what they look like.
EDIT: https://imgur.com/a/yPTEsN5 -- Here's some pics I took with my phone while home for lunch. I also quickly painted one up to show the "details" and grainy-ness I mentioned above. They aren't all as bad as the one I painted, but this gives an idea of what they look like when you get them.
I'll still be using them and plan on cleaning them up a bit with a pin file -- they should suffice for Tabletop Quality, but certainly won't be winning any Golden Demon awards using them
It looks like they also have Frag Cannons available that I might try as well -- I need a few more to flesh out my army and I can get 4 of them for fairly cheap, so I'll check those out at some point too.
Oh thats weird! I thought that vets/oldmarines are our core (stormbolters all the way) and primaris only support here and there.
So no Landraider & blackstar for me?
"Take a Battalion. Fill your HQs with whatever you like. Your 3 Troops should be 2 Vet Squads, one tooled as a Anvil and one tooled as a Hammer; and a foot-slogging Intercessor Squad. Also take a Corvus and a Redeemer. Combat Squad all three troops choices, put the Anvil in the Redeemer and the Hammer in the Corvus. Deploy the Intercessors in your backfield and have them foot-slog and advance everywhere or camp a home objective. The Corvus should drop its 2 squads near something that needs to die and then all three should spend the rest of the game killing important units. Finally, the Redeemer and its 2 squads should be delivered to 1-2 objectives and refuse to move for the rest of the game if possible."
https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Warhammer_40,000/Tactics/Deathwatch(8E)#The_Old_One-Two_.28Three.29
* oldmarine vet squads with double frag cannons. I once was forced by an opponent into a situation where my entire army had to charge a double frag cannon squad in order to prevent the game from ending. 2 dead characters and a total of 12 dead intercessors later, nothing had managed to get into melee. It's horrific what that much dice can do.
I had an opponent for whatever feel compelled to charge them. Lost a squad, proceeded to declare a charge with the next, lost it to. Started to declare a charge with a third before I begged him to stop.
McGibs wrote: Or charge them through LoS terrain, or charge something nearby and consolidate into them. There's a lot of ways to get around deadly overwatch.
Smart opponents will do this. My friend killed my whole Raven guard gunline with 2 broodlords by moving them to and from cover in and out of assault. He was pissed after I wiped everything else he had from the table and switched up tactics which gave him the win.
McGibs wrote: Or charge them through LoS terrain, or charge something nearby and consolidate into them. There's a lot of ways to get around deadly overwatch.
Smart opponents will do this. My friend killed my whole Raven guard gunline with 2 broodlords by moving them to and from cover in and out of assault. He was pissed after I wiped everything else he had from the table and switched up tactics which gave him the win.
This sounds like it must have been an amazing game to have witnessed lol.
McGibs wrote: Or charge them through LoS terrain, or charge something nearby and consolidate into them. There's a lot of ways to get around deadly overwatch.
Smart opponents will do this. My friend killed my whole Raven guard gunline with 2 broodlords by moving them to and from cover in and out of assault. He was pissed after I wiped everything else he had from the table and switched up tactics which gave him the win.
This sounds like it must have been an amazing game to have witnessed lol.
It was epic. He started with tons of stealers, 3 broodlords, and 3 venomthropes. My agressors and sternguard killed all except the two brood lords. Broodlords and stealers are incredibly fast especially with certain strategems.
Here is my new kill everything deathwatch list. It's my latest variation of units I've had massive success with.
Please don't Copy Paste directly from Battlescribe. It looks messy, is lazy, and creates a lot of redundancy as I don't need every Aggressor's weapon listed individually.
Im going with a Scythes of the Emperor force using Deathwatch rules, fluff wise im saying my guys are 1st company and have a fair few vets from the fall of Sotha and Giants coffin etc plus a couple who have been deployed with the DW due to the Scythes tactics of hunting down nids in search of goodies.
Looking at a non optimised list but also want it to not be completely obliterated when it takes the field. So using the models i have i was thinking of something like this.
1K list to start off with...
Watch captain bare bones
Primaris Librarian
Intercessors x 6
Intercessors x 6
Vets x 7
Missile launcher
Ven Dread
lascannon and ML
inceptors x 3
Hellblasters x 5
its just over 1k the plan would be for the main body of troops to plod forward and fire at the enemy infantry using the buffs from the captain and librarian.
The dread and hellblasters sit slightly further back sit on objectives and use their heavy firepower to take on big targets and vehicles. The inceptors buzz around and pump shots into whatever they fancy.
Any good or total garbage?? I could drop inceptors for something else but not sure what else to get.
At 1 k I have found the bodies and bullets you have the better. Epescially since we have special issue ammo. I'd use a watch master and attach the hellblasters to a unit of intercessors to act as ablative wounds and keep them alive longer. Also vets with stormbolters are amazing I'd ditch the missle launcher for a frag cannon if able. It's an assault weapon that is a badass flamer at 8" , a autocannon at 24" and a lascannon at 12". Very versatile. See my list a couple posts up. If you can get agressors then absolutely do!
Rogerio134134 wrote: Im going with a Scythes of the Emperor force using Deathwatch rules, fluff wise im saying my guys are 1st company and have a fair few vets from the fall of Sotha and Giants coffin etc plus a couple who have been deployed with the DW due to the Scythes tactics of hunting down nids in search of goodies.
Looking at a non optimised list but also want it to not be completely obliterated when it takes the field. So using the models i have i was thinking of something like this.
1K list to start off with...
Watch captain bare bones
Primaris Librarian
Intercessors x 6
Intercessors x 6
Vets x 7
Missile launcher
Ven Dread
lascannon and ML
inceptors x 3
Hellblasters x 5
its just over 1k the plan would be for the main body of troops to plod forward and fire at the enemy infantry using the buffs from the captain and librarian.
The dread and hellblasters sit slightly further back sit on objectives and use their heavy firepower to take on big targets and vehicles. The inceptors buzz around and pump shots into whatever they fancy.
Any good or total garbage?? I could drop inceptors for something else but not sure what else to get.
I'd make sure to give your captain at least a power sword and storm bolter. It's going to let him do something with his statline.
Give the libby a stormbolter as well so he can make pew pew noises and maybe even kill something.
If you take veterans make sure to give them transport or deepstrike them. Also make sure to chuck in at least two stormshields for 3++.
If you are taking veterans at all stormbolters and frag cannons are the way to go.
Mix the hellblasters into your intercessor squads. Fewer drops and they can move up to be more likely to get into rapid fire range.
Be prepared to lose the dread because it will eat all the anti tank firepower. Maybe axe it in favor of another intercessor/hellblaster squad.
Thanks for the advice guys, I'm trying to not go crazy with the mixed units as I'm trying to go fluffy with a semi competitive element I want to find the balance.
One other question about the black Star model, do you have to have the huge inquisitorial symbol on the back? I think it looks a bit crappy and wouldn't fit in with my theme.
Rogerio134134 wrote: Thanks for the advice guys, I'm trying to not go crazy with the mixed units as I'm trying to go fluffy with a semi competitive element I want to find the balance.
One other question about the black Star model, do you have to have the huge inquisitorial symbol on the back? I think it looks a bit crappy and wouldn't fit in with my theme.
Ultimately you'll only learn what works by playing some games. Meta is different in other areas. If you want to play fluffy type list that's cool. However killteams are meant to be mixed not just single unit types like vanilla marines.
Based on my personal experience with many games since the codex dropped I disagree. I see the intercessors as valuable but for ablative wounds for my aggressors. I love my dreadnoughts and corvus but have found that they don't live long and don't even put out as much dakka as my infantry squads. The intercessors I are -1 AP and range is great but I like more shots for taking down... anything really.
Martel732 wrote: I just feel that aggressors and hellblasters and such are still far too expensive for 2W models.
To each their own. My aggressors have done the heavy lifting most games. In my Raven guard as well. Just sooooo many shots. I'll take them almost every game except with my space wolves.
It does help to have the intercessors in front, but I'm playing vs a lot of dissy cannons very frequently. The teleportarium helps, but even then, they only get to shoot once. Doesn't seem worth it.
Disintegrator cannons? Dark eldar? Take away their advantage by using regular vet squads then with storm shields. 3++ on a 1 w model. They would be wasting shots on regular vet squads. By killing your intercessors they are getting more bang for their buck. Also play on boards with an appropriate amount of cover and line of sight blocking terrain.
I'm not suggesting you list tailor. It seemed from your post that you encounter lots of dark eldar. .How is a vet more vulnerable? Vets and intercessors are both T4. Intercessors have 2w but vets can take a SS for a 3+ invul. Judging by your post count you've been around awhile. Do you have any vanilla marines you can paint black and silver? If so than diversify and use some regular vets and put the primaris in reserve.
Anyone use Reivers? Look like a good choice to take down vulrable units in the back field, fancy a unit of 6 with grav chutes and heavy pistols coming down and firing hellfire rounds into the enemy then charging using shock grenades to finish them off.
Rogerio134134 wrote: Anyone use Reivers? Look like a good choice to take down vulrable units in the back field, fancy a unit of 6 with grav chutes and heavy pistols coming down and firing hellfire rounds into the enemy then charging using shock grenades to finish them off.
Personally I think they're garbage. They gross levels of expensive and pitiful damage for their points. With chutes they are 25 points a model which is just stupid for the pitiful amount of damage they do (21 if you take melee and they're still bad at that). Even if you do deepstrike them in they 9 inches away so good luck charging anything and their grenade is only 6 inches so you can't even use it on the turn they come in. Also have fun coming in turn two and beyond. For 25 less points you can get an intercessor troop choice who have better guns, can shield more valuable models, and are on the board turn one. You can also pay a CP to deepstrike the intercessor squad. Reiver's are just plain bad and I largely blame the fact that you have to pay an outrageous four points for their gun and always one point for their pistol. It went from 0 to 4! It's the same thing as a storm bolter (which is 4points for deathwatch), but half the rate of fire within rapid fire. IMO all pistols should still be free and their guns should be 1 point up from what it was like the other standard options. Reivers could have been a very solid unit, but nope. We get trash.
DW Reivers have to go knife loadout to avoid the nasty tax on their bolters. So if you're looking for a unit to threaten backfield low-armour units, then go ahead. There aren't many of those worth threatening, however. I can think of worse ways to spend 105pts but DW have so many excellent troops options, and teleportarium, so reivers are just a poor choice most of the time. I can see an argument for dropping a single reiver in a bare-bones intercessor squad.
grouchoben wrote: DW Reivers have to go knife loadout to avoid the nasty tax on their bolters. So if you're looking for a unit to threaten backfield low-armour units, then go ahead. There aren't many of those worth threatening, however. I can think of worse ways to spend 105pts but DW have so many excellent troops options, and teleportarium, so reivers are just a poor choice most of the time. I can see an argument for dropping a single reiver in a bare-bones intercessor squad.
Just for gits and shiggles, I started to actually think about worse ways to spend 105 points. There aren't really that many. Any type of Chaplain. Maybe the Primaris Watch Captain?
They're really quite expensive for what they bring, sadly.
If I had reivers to test out in a list I wouldn't put grav chutes on them I'd give them grapnel launchers instead. This way I could bring them in on top of or behind a building if needed and then they could move or charge without being overwatched and ignore terrain for there movement. Could be useful. And My FLGS does not use the Beta rules. So I could DS firs turn if I want.
If you want to drop a 105pt infiltration unit in a backfield turn one, for me it would be a 5-man vet squad, all packing stormbolters and chainswords, with one stormshield. Dropping into cover, dishing out 20 SIA shots, and hitting the same amount in CC if it comes to it, with a 3++ invuln, and obsec, and contributing towards a batallion. Downside: 1cp & 1W instead of 2W.
But 20 SIA shots is a non-trivial attack; with no rerolls, auras or mission tactics, that's 4.4 damage against reivers, for example. It's not really close for me.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Or spend 6pts more for 3 Aggressors dropping in with their 29 bolters shots, doubling to 58 next turn if left unmolested. I don't think Reivers can compete with either option.
Based on another poster's idea I tried my two Reiver squads with a teleporting chaplain dread. They do threaten much more when swinging with S5 attacks. Still not competitive by any stretch of the imagination, but they were fun to play at least.
Reivers being a close combat unit with a relatively low amount of non-AP attacks just puts them in a weird place in general. They’re reasonabnly tough but they aren’t actually good at killing any sort of unit. If they had 4 attacks each maybe they could do something, but 15 S4 AP0 attacks just doesn’t cut it. They function best with the carbines normally but that makes them quite expensive as Deathwatch.
Aggressors on the other hand I absolutely love. They have a clear role, clearing away hordes of infantry, and they are devastatingly efficient at doing that. Just park a Watch Master nearby and let them do their thing.
