Thargrim wrote: Just by looking at the rebel speeder you can tell they are already reaching a bit when it comes to expanding the rebels.
Ain't that the truth.
Always said it would happen, especially with the Rebels. They're not an army! Luke's up-gunned speeder just proves that.
This.
It's fine and well showing them as scrappy upstarts, bolting dakka onto their Space Ford Cortina. But when it's up against a Tank, it's obvious that, well, it's a Space Ford Cortina with a gun strapped to it, and not in fact a weapon of war. Or even close to it.
OTOH the size of battle for 'Legion' are the sort of size where you'd expect scrappy upstarts try and take out a tank with a car and a rocket launcher.
Also, if the rebels think the X-34 can get sub as a military vehicle, it's not a Cortina. It's a Hi-lux.
Stormonu wrote: Imperials get “all the cool toys”, the rebels get has been or garage modified equipment that tends to fall apart at the mere sight of imperial weaponry.
I thought the imp tank from Rogue One was a repulsor?
"Repulsor" is the method of locomotion, not the model name. It's a repulsor tank as opposed to a wheeled, tracked or walker tank.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Manchu wrote: Someone should proxy Legion with jihadis in technicals for the Rebellion and US/Allies for Empire.
IIRC, the Vietnam war was an inspiration for the Empire vs Rebels assymetric conflict. Especially when it came to Ewoks in the forest.
Stormonu wrote: Imperials get “all the cool toys”, the rebels get has been or garage modified equipment that tends to fall apart at the mere sight of imperial weaponry.
I thought the imp tank from Rogue One was a repulsor?
"Repulsor" is the method of locomotion, not the model name. It's a repulsor tank as opposed to a wheeled, tracked or walker tank.
Actually, it's two different variants of the same tank, the Occupier Combat Assault Tank: the TX-225 GAVw, which is tracked and the one that appears in Rogue One, and the TX-225 GAVr, which is a hovertank and the one depicted in Rebels. OTOH, none is actually a repulsor tank.
I kind of need to be informed of this stuff due to work.
In the context of Star Wars, what's the difference between a hover tank and a repulsor tank? I was under the impression that repulsor/repulsorlift was the term for antigravity "floating" things?
AndrewGPaul wrote: In the context of Star Wars, what's the difference between a hover tank and a repulsor tank? I was under the impression that repulsor/repulsorlift was the term for antigravity "floating" things?
Practical? nil and none, and actually the Occupier uses repulsors to create the air cushion. In-setting? Well, the technobabble needs to be specific ^_^
AndrewGPaul wrote: In the context of Star Wars, what's the difference between a hover tank and a repulsor tank? I was under the impression that repulsor/repulsorlift was the term for antigravity "floating" things?
I've always considered the difference to be what they actually describe. Hover describes the end effect whereas repulsor describes the underlying mechanism producing it. By that definition, a repulsor tank is a hover tank but not necessarily vice versa (all hover tanks are not necessarily repulsors since tanks that float on air cushions could also be described as hover tanks). YMMV as it's just my own take on the nomenclature and nothing official.
AndrewGPaul wrote: In the context of Star Wars, what's the difference between a hover tank and a repulsor tank? I was under the impression that repulsor/repulsorlift was the term for antigravity "floating" things?
Practical? nil and none, and actually the Occupier uses repulsors to create the air cushion. In-setting? Well, the technobabble needs to be specific ^_^
You're one of those independent contractors working on the Death Star they talked about in the Clerks movie, aren't you!?!
LunarSol wrote: I really like it, but it seems like there's zero incentive to play Rebels, making it an unfortunately one faction game.
Why is there no incentive to play Rebels? Is it just that they don't have any cool models?
Mostly that. The hero models aren't particularly exciting and should be the main rebel draw. Instead the game really focuses on infantry, which is great for the Empire but pretty generic feeling for Rebels. Imperial stuff also feels a hair stronger, but it seems to mostly be a case of Imperial stuff playing a little more to the strengths of the game system itself.
Thargrim wrote: Just by looking at the rebel speeder you can tell they are already reaching a bit when it comes to expanding the rebels.
Ain't that the truth.
Always said it would happen, especially with the Rebels. They're not an army! Luke's up-gunned speeder just proves that.
This.
It's fine and well showing them as scrappy upstarts, bolting dakka onto their Space Ford Cortina. But when it's up against a Tank, it's obvious that, well, it's a Space Ford Cortina with a gun strapped to it, and not in fact a weapon of war. Or even close to it.
Once again, you guys better get going on your world tour of military bases, I'm sure all the soldiers who've been fighting in the middle east for the last however many godforsaken years it's been will be relieved to know that they weren't fighting a proper war with proper enemies at all so they can just chillax
I mean seriously, where on earth has this farcical idea come from? There have been countless conflicts through history between sides with vast differences in technology and/or numbers, and "they're not exactly like the Napoleonic Wars, WW1, or WW2" doesn't mean they're not wars.
It must just be infuriating for you guys that you can't dismiss all the countless examples from outwith the three OT movies of the wider GCW as "EU stuff" any more eh. The Battlefront games are canon. The novels are canon. The comics are canon. They all prove you wrong.
They mean a PROPER war. Just like when the Romans fought the Gauls, who notoriously used the same equipment and tactics as the Romans and only fought pitched battles of even forces...oh wait, they used completely different equipment, tactics and war ethos' from each other. Well, at least we don't call them The Gallic Wars or anything since they weren't real wars...oh wait, we do call them that. Huh. Well perhaps that's why Romans aren't a very popular period for historical wargaming...oh wait...
TL : DR - Star Wars is Space Romans vs Space Gauls. With lasers.
LunarSol wrote: I really like it, but it seems like there's zero incentive to play Rebels, making it an unfortunately one faction game.
Why is there no incentive to play Rebels? Is it just that they don't have any cool models?
Mostly that. The hero models aren't particularly exciting and should be the main rebel draw. Instead the game really focuses on infantry, which is great for the Empire but pretty generic feeling for Rebels. Imperial stuff also feels a hair stronger, but it seems to mostly be a case of Imperial stuff playing a little more to the strengths of the game system itself.
The funny thing is that Rebels are dominating in the tournaments due to the infantry. They could add more infantry due to the cheaper cost so they had more activations that allowed for them to be overall stronger in the metagame.
So while they may "Feel a hair stronger" but tournaments showed otherwise.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: The funny thing is that Rebels are dominating in the tournaments due to the infantry. They could add more infantry due to the cheaper cost so they had more activations that allowed for them to be overall stronger in the metagame.
So while they may "Feel a hair stronger" but tournaments showed otherwise.
I hadn't heard the Rebels were doing that great in tournaments, but I haven't been following that closely. Either side is pretty happy to forgo cool toys and just spam activations though. Part of that is the result of a couple of terrible missions and part of it is just that the game doesn't do quite enough to limit the power of activation control. Personally, I think they probably just need to add a max number of units to their FOC. Something like 10 at 800 points?
Thargrim wrote: Just by looking at the rebel speeder you can tell they are already reaching a bit when it comes to expanding the rebels.
Ain't that the truth.
Always said it would happen, especially with the Rebels. They're not an army! Luke's up-gunned speeder just proves that.
To me it's always been the speeder design in general that makes it awkward to use as a fighting vehicle. Even the purpose build military speeders for the Naboo security forces in Phantom Menace looked like 1950s convertibles with laser guns stuck on. The one with the cannon mounted to the spoiler always looks like it's going to blast the driver or passenger in the head when it fires and the other speeder with the cannons more sensibly mounted still looks very vulnerable and fragile. I get that they're going for the pick up truck technical type of vehicle with the rebels and it's not a bad idea but the lack of variance in speeder design makes it look like they tried to weaponized a Honda Accord or Toyota Camry instead of a Hi Lux. Pick up trucks or jeeps are rugged, dependable and practical vehicles for militaries/insurgents while sedans and sports cars are not but Star Wars has decided that speeder will always look like the latter and never the former.
As much as I would love to see Clone Wars over the constant rehashing of GCW stuff I think rebels vs stormtroopers seems to work well for this game seeing as it has a very low model count. Sure, clones and droids would also work well but I think they would be better served in a larger 40k scale of game.
Given the mediocre quality of the models however it would take a lot to get me interested in this game. The sculpts all look very cheaply made and remind me too much of Mantic box sets which still give me nightmares
ZebioLizard2 wrote: The funny thing is that Rebels are dominating in the tournaments due to the infantry. They could add more infantry due to the cheaper cost so they had more activations that allowed for them to be overall stronger in the metagame.
So while they may "Feel a hair stronger" but tournaments showed otherwise.
I hadn't heard the Rebels were doing that great in tournaments, but I haven't been following that closely. Either side is pretty happy to forgo cool toys and just spam activations though. Part of that is the result of a couple of terrible missions and part of it is just that the game doesn't do quite enough to limit the power of activation control. Personally, I think they probably just need to add a max number of units to their FOC. Something like 10 at 800 points?
Oh yes indeed infantry spam is the name of the game currently. The Airspeeder is so terrible that I've never seen it on the table, and the AT-ST comes in very rarely.
Not to mention people are thrilled with the generic leaders because it means even cheaper leaders that allow you to take more infantry. A lot of the cooler stuff is being ignored because activation/infantry spam is king.
Thargrim wrote: Just by looking at the rebel speeder you can tell they are already reaching a bit when it comes to expanding the rebels.
Ain't that the truth.
Always said it would happen, especially with the Rebels. They're not an army! Luke's up-gunned speeder just proves that.
This.
It's fine and well showing them as scrappy upstarts, bolting dakka onto their Space Ford Cortina. But when it's up against a Tank, it's obvious that, well, it's a Space Ford Cortina with a gun strapped to it, and not in fact a weapon of war. Or even close to it.
Once again, you guys better get going on your world tour of military bases, I'm sure all the soldiers who've been fighting in the middle east for the last however many godforsaken years it's been will be relieved to know that they weren't fighting a proper war with proper enemies at all so they can just chillax
I mean seriously, where on earth has this farcical idea come from? There have been countless conflicts through history between sides with vast differences in technology and/or numbers, and "they're not exactly like the Napoleonic Wars, WW1, or WW2" doesn't mean they're not wars.
It must just be infuriating for you guys that you can't dismiss all the countless examples from outwith the three OT movies of the wider GCW as "EU stuff" any more eh. The Battlefront games are canon. The novels are canon. The comics are canon. They all prove you wrong.
Yeah, you either want practicality or cool, it can't be both.
While the landspeeder does look bleh it would be what the rebels have access to. They are going to look like a patchwork army.
A "patchwork army" with its own shipyards and starfighter design and production facilities. The odd armoured vehicle wouldn't go amiss.
But it's because "faction" = "models" these days. I mean, really the Rebel Alliance should have access to similar vehicles to the Galactic Empire - old second-line surplus, captured or defected units. But that means that ... both sides might look similar! Can't have that!
Same reason why only the Rebels get blockade runners and frigates in Armada, despite the fact that they [i]get[/]i all theirs by nicking them from the Imperial Navy.
This has always been a big problem in Star Wars in general
The Rebels although they should use captured imperial tech most of the time, use only those kind of imperial tech that the Imperium does not use any more and/or looks different enough in design too make it clear who they are
And while the movies showed that the Rebels had enough money and/or industry to build their own space equipment and ground weapons one could think that the Snowspeeder was their version of a heavy battle tank
AndrewGPaul wrote: A "patchwork army" with its own shipyards and starfighter design and production facilities. The odd armoured vehicle wouldn't go amiss.
But it's because "faction" = "models" these days. I mean, really the Rebel Alliance should have access to similar vehicles to the Galactic Empire - old second-line surplus, captured or defected units. But that means that ... both sides might look similar! Can't have that!
Same reason why only the Rebels get blockade runners and frigates in Armada, despite the fact that they [i]get[/]i all theirs by nicking them from the Imperial Navy.
Shipyards of various governments that are willing to donate them. Ships of different volunteers, like Solo, who signed up without an allegiance other than their own. Companies that can afford to do work for them. Most of these were done behind the backs of imperial control so large scale support wasn't always an option.
They should have some more Imperial vehicles because they did steal from them.
Honestly, the rebels should look more like what the scum faction looks like, just with rebel insignia...patchwork army.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Don't forget, the rebels did spend a lot of time politicking with governments to fund their war in any way possible. That may mean a shipyard, it may also mean a few crates of weapons. The rebels basically kickstarted their war with the imperials.
that's partly a problem with the scale of legion, the amount of stuff on the table is so small that if you represented the rebels as a patchwork army with stolen imperial tech you could very easily end up with just imperial stuff on the rebel side (well except the foot soldiers)
and grumpy imperial players as they only get access to half the stuff their opponants do
It would be fine to do with a 6mm scale game with hundreds on things on the table where you could have limits on the looted stuff, not so much at 28mm when there are only a few
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: that's partly a problem with the scale of legion, the amount of stuff on the table is so small that if you represented the rebels as a patchwork army with stolen imperial tech you could very easily end up with just imperial stuff on the rebel side (well except the foot soldiers)
and grumpy imperial players as they only get access to half the stuff their opponants do
It would be fine to do with a 6mm scale game with hundreds on things on the table where you could have limits on the looted stuff, not so much at 28mm when there are only a few
Then they leave out the imperial aspects of their tech but still have something that says we're kind of working with what we can get. You will end up with stuff like the landspeeder. They should also get tech that doesn't look like an ork built it, that's for sure. Not everything is going to be uniformed or new.
Patchwork tech for Rebels is one of the reasons I’m not interested in them in Legion.
We see them in Star Wars with the likes of X-wings, B-Wings and A-wings. Not a bunch of battle-scarred TIE fighters or space trucks with lasers strapped on. The rebels should have their own, distinctive vehicles, not reconstituted Imperial stuff or makeshift crap.
They’re more British commandos fighting in North Africa and less Isis fighting in the Middle East.
Going to avoid comparison to actual militaries for the sanity of this thread.
Also just going to self edit my previous post and be done with my ritual beating of the dead horse.
It's worth mentioning that for the most part from the 'old lore', the Rebels tended to rely more on things like the X-Wing and Y-Wing for support versus the ground game.
It helped that they didn't have to worry as much about having bases on the planets they were fighting on. They just had to(as we saw in Rogue One) call it in.
People are speculating that the pilot cards included with the speeder will help "fix" the T-43, but that's also kind of the thing I hated in X-Wing.
Far less of an issue as long as they avoid cross faction fixes. That said, the second pilot better be amazing. The one on top isn’t going to fix the snowspeeder one bit.
People are speculating that the pilot cards included with the speeder will help "fix" the T-43, but that's also kind of the thing I hated in X-Wing.
I don't think you could release anything to help the T-47. It just doesn't overall work due to cost, effectiveness, and the power of standard infantry.
In general it seems like it'd be good, but it doesn't bring enough firepower because of it's ability to be downed so easily. A bit of concentrated fire from Stormtroopers with DLT's and it just flies to pieces, and then you've lost the activation and infantry advantage due to its high cost to effectiveness ratio. If there were things in the backline that would be decent enough targets the T-43 would be effective but as your main army and even the support will likely be moving up, stormtroopers with DLT's backed up by their commanders the T-43 has to move to the main fray eventually.
Unlike the other infantry models that have been featured in Legion thus far, it sounds like these are going to come with multiple different poses/assembly options, with Sabine either having a "gunslinger" pose with two pistols or else one pistol and her sword (as well as both a helmeted and unhelmeted option); Bossk will have either the "grenade throwing" pose shown there or a more conventional one with both hands on his weapon. That seems pretty interesting with respect to the future of the game's miniatures, especially the infantry.
Bossk looks fantastic. I have no interest in the game itself (I think the mechanics are rather bland, especially the dice), but I may just have to pick up one of each of the bounty hunters.
As for the characters - eh. They're nice, and I like the switch to having pose & weapon options, but I'm less fussed about named characters than I am about generics and new infantry/vehicle units.
H.B.M.C. wrote: So they're already up to ruined versions of the limited units they have?
Good sign.
Don't worry, God willing, we'll all meet up in Star Wars Legion 2: The Search for More Money.
Now in 45mm scale, or whatever stupid size to ensure it isn't compatible with your previous purchases, terrain, etc. How else can they sell the exact same stuff yet again?
H.B.M.C. wrote: So they're already up to ruined versions of the limited units they have?
Good sign.
Well all games have a limited number of units. I think that SW Legion has a respectable number of units at this point. For example the rebels have Luke, Leia, Han, Spec Ops, Chewie, Troopers, Fleet Troopers, Commandos, Wookies, Canon and the Walker.
While I would personally like more units rather than destroyed ones, I also believe that scenarios are important, and it is good to see that FF also believes that they are important as well.
This is not to defend some of FF bad decisions, such as the scale change, or card system in xwing, but I think that everyone who went into Legion was aware of these sorts of things from the start. If you approach it casually it is not an issue.
I agree that while cool and most people’s favourite, the GCW wasn’t the best place to start if you’re making a canonical game. The Rebellion aren’t too bad as there are a mix of distinct units and an abundance of heroes. The Empire is so lacking in iconic canon heroes that the main releases have been Scum and Villainy who the Empire barely tolerates. The Clone Wars is full of canon materials for both factions. If you look at legends things change, Imperial Assault has plenty of units and heroes for the Empire to draw from, but it doesn’t seem like they’re going to do that ( and I do understand why)
Ugly Green Trog wrote: I agree that while cool and most people’s favourite, the GCW wasn’t the best place to start if you’re making a canonical game. The Rebellion aren’t too bad as there are a mix of distinct units and an abundance of heroes. The Empire is so lacking in iconic canon heroes that the main releases have been Scum and Villainy who the Empire barely tolerates. The Clone Wars is full of canon materials for both factions. If you look at legends things change, Imperial Assault has plenty of units and heroes for the Empire to draw from, but it doesn’t seem like they’re going to do that ( and I do understand why)
I do think Clone Wars would have been a better starting point, but theres still lots they can do in the GCW era just by drawing from the movies and TV shows. besides iconic stuff from the original movies we haven't seen (Lando, Ewoks, Imperial Fleet Troopers, Hoth Rebels, Sand Troopers, Dewbacks, etc) there's still lots of stuff from Rebels, Solo and Rogue One to be done. I imagine they could continue their current release schedule for at least 2 more years before the well runs dry and they have to resort to doing new version of existing characters (RotJ Luke or Bounty Hunter Leia ) or stuff we've only seen in expanded universe.
As far as the Empire lacking Iconic heroes go, they have plenty of non A-list options. Thrawn and Tarkin, Agent Kallus, Grand Inquisitor, 5th Brother, 7th Sister, 8th Brother, Governor Pryce, Valen Rudor, Minister Tua and Wulf Yularen. Any of them would make solid characters for Legion. Thats not counting and of the named officers form the OT, or any more bounty hunters, or any of the Mandalorians.
I think the development team got the memo, that the prequels are trash and are hated now, long ago. But sticking just to the "originals" for a wargame might turn out to be a big mistake.
ingtaer wrote: Take it you don't follow legion? Clone Wars has been announced for ages, same time as for X-wing thought he first releases there are immanent.
Nope! But that sounds good for the game! I wonder if they`ll make LAAT Gunship.
Oh they'll make a LAAT. It'll be huge and ridiculous, but it'll be made and sell like mad.
That said, it looks like they're using the smaller sized versions of the clone wars vehicles, all the clone wars stuff has a lot of issues with having multiple depictions at different sizes due to all the different media it's been in. The AT-TE they've had in art definitely uses the smaller version that's close to a tank size.
Aren't they bringing out a TV Show about Boba Fett? That looks cool, could make for good material to draw on for Legion.
Ditto for Solo: A Star Wars Story.
In fact you could probably eventually add a third faction of "Scum and Villainy". Hutt Gangs launching ambushes on Imperial patrols etc. Deals gone wrong between Rebels and Criminal Gangs. Darth Maul's gang the Crimson Dawn.
And Rogue One, which they still haven't exploited fully (just Jyn Erso, Director Krennic, Pathfinders and Deathroopers so far. But where is the rest of Rogue One, and the Shore Troopers? Saw Gurera and the Partisans?).
Theres tons of stuff they can still do with OT.
And then there are the Disney Sequels with the First Order and Resistance (not that I give a gak about those movies but a miniature Kylo Ren would still be cool).
Imperial Army are the one thing I really want to see out of FFG before they backburner the OT and start pumping out Clone Wars stuff I have little interest in(I like the CW era just fine, but I don't care about it enough to spend a fortune collecting models about it).
Like that FFG didn't call them "Hoth Troopers" or "Rebel Snow Troopers" or something dumb like that. I like to be able to pretend that these two militaries exist within their own fantasy world and aren't just categorized by the costume the actor wore, unfortunately the way "Snow Troopers" were. Am I supposed to believe they've divided their military up by the setting they'll be fighting in? What if they think they're going to a snow planet but then the Rebels are actually on a beach, but they didn't bring any beach troopers? Do they have to go back? Just surrender?
There aren't any worlds that have snow and beaches. There are snow worlds, and there are beach worlds.
Probably why the galactic empire lost. If they send a star destroying somewhere for military operations, they have to bring some snow troopers, some jungle troopers, some desert troopers, some city troopers, etc. So they'll always have some soldiers for whatever kind of world they need to be sent to, but they'll always have most of their soldiers sitting idle on the ship.
Clone Wars coming Q3 2019, 100 dollars base box (Obi-Wan + clone troopers vs Grievous + B1 and some Droidekas)
2 troop expansion boxes, 25 dollars each (clone troopers and B1 droids)
card expansion box, 10 dollars
Republic half:
BARC Speeder can be assembled with or without sidecar, and the sidecar swivels to face the rear arc like in the show. Phase 1 Trooper armour, obviously.
Clankers:
Extremely cool models. EDIT: Oh wow, hard plastic and on frames. The droids anyway, not clear if the Troopers are as well. Greivous apparently has a daft amount of poses - arms joined together, arms separated, lightsabers, one pistol arm, and all of them are ball & socket joints at the shoulder.
Oh my, very tempting to get the clone wars box. Ugh...this isn't good...between this and all the other stuff coming out, i'm going to have to make some hard choices.
Galactic Civil War isn’t really noted for army action. Fleet? Yes. But on the ground, the Rebellion was more guerilla. With little standardisation of equipment.
Clone Wars? Much better for a TTWG. Lots of variety in terms of canonical units and vehicles. Both able to fight actual battles.
Yes, Yes, Yes, Will be getting on this hard. Still not 100% convinced of the games mechanics but these armies need to end up in the display cabinet (next to their Lego counterparts!)
Hope we get a bunch of the vehicles down the pipeline, but wondering how they will deal with the bigger stuff.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Yodhrin, it’s a fair criticism.
Galactic Civil War isn’t really noted for army action. Fleet? Yes. But on the ground, the Rebellion was more guerilla. With little standardisation of equipment.
Clone Wars? Much better for a TTWG. Lots of variety in terms of canonical units and vehicles. Both able to fight actual battles.
Have to agree. Even for skirmishes, the Rebel Alliance wasn't notable for them, much less an ARMY. The Grand Army of the Republic and Droid Army are far better candidates for a Star Wars wargame.
Rebels are fine for the size of the game. Most battles are essentially Endor size and Rebel armies pull that off fine currently. They have issues fielding larger models, but the game mechanics don't currently reward anything but infantry spam so its kind of irrelevant.
The other big announcement is upgrade card packs, which is something FFG has slept on for far far far too long. Disappointed they're not using it as an opportunity to update cards for a few models (Vader and the aforementioned large models mainly) but good news regardless.
The Droids make fun use of the game mechanics. Cheap with horrific bad stats. They get orders relatively easily but can't aim and attack for the most part.
To all those who are saying that Rebels vs. Stormtroopers don't make for a good military army versus military army representation... remember that this game is played on a space that would be smaller than an American Football field. This is a skirmish and not a large scale military battle. We're seeing one very small segment of what is probably a larger battle.
I'm glad they are moving to sprues with quality hard plastic. The abs type plastic had mold release residue and the brush on primer didn't stick well even after washing and it was harder to scrape mold lines with that plastic. I can't wait to see the sprues for the clone troopers and droids...and also super battle droids...those were my favorite.
Damn right it is. Star Wars Legion being about an actual war, rather than a partisan group fighting a galaxy-dominating star Empire? And the things they can release for the GCW are already running thin, with disparate unrelated Rebel units and the latest being some destroyed units because what else is there?
This on the other hand actually has me interested, because the Clone Wars are awesome, and there's tons of stuff to mine from. And it's an actual war!!!
Galactic Civil War isn’t really noted for army action. Fleet? Yes. But on the ground, the Rebellion was more guerilla. With little standardisation of equipment.
Clone Wars? Much better for a TTWG. Lots of variety in terms of canonical units and vehicles. Both able to fight actual battles.
I disagree on multiple levels, it's not a fair criticism at all.
Firstly, the Rebellion made heavy use of asymmetrical warfare, but they also fielded formations of appreciable size organised along military lines and engaged the Empire in open battle on many more occasions than are seen in the films. Once you account for canon games, books, and comics it's demonstrably true that the Rebellion was much more along the lines of the Vietcong than the rag-tag South American militia operating out of a shed that some people insist on painting them as being.
Secondly, the supposed advantage in "variety" that the Clone Wars enjoys is far less than is asserted, especially after you account for the factor you seem to be claiming as a negative; lack of standardisation. Insofar as that's actually true(see above) it's an advantage in terms of providing unit variety, not a disadvantage - Rebels have their own gear, but can also use retrofitted civilian equipment, Clone Wars surplus from either faction, and materiel liberated from the Empire. And that's assuming you even have to set things up so that every Empire release has an equal and opposite Rebel one, you could quite easily keep banging out varieties of Stormtrooper for the Empire and switch the Rebels to loads of characters and operatives(I'd argue they should have taken that approach from the word go and had the two factions play radically differently).
Thirdly, once you account for the scale of the wargame in question, the idea that the Clone Wars is "better" is even less valid - Legion, contrary to the name, does not depict vast clashes between armies. The size of a typical Legion game is a platoon-/cell-level skirmish, a small company level engagement at best. It's small enough to permit the plausible inclusion of a Scum faction, nevermind the Rebellion - it's not necessary to be a Grand Army or an Empire in order to fight "battles" the size of those depicted in Legion games. Even if the characterisation of the Rebels as being basically a nonentity in ground warfare were accurate, they could still easily muster up the type of forces used in Legion.
I'm glad they're doing Clone Wars, but this nonsense claim that somehow the Galactic Civil War wasn't a proper war and isn't capable of supporting a wargame even as it does so needs to die.
And I'm sure that one day, HBMC will actually back up his repeated assertions to the contrary with some actual evidence.
I'm glad they're doing Clone Wars, but this nonsense claim that somehow the Galactic Civil War wasn't a proper war and isn't capable of supporting a wargame even as it does so needs to die.
Discounting the rest of your argument, because I agree, the GCW is a proper war, and should have plenty of variety beyond "Hoth" and Regular Troopers. I'm gonna have to say, that it being unable to support a wargame isn't a nonsense claim. It clearly hasn't been able to support a wargame well enough on its own. A large number of places in my area have completely dropped Legion as a product from what I have seen, and those that still carry it carry a token amount. Further more, if you look at FFG's other Star Wars games, X-Wing managed to make it a whole Edition with out needing to break out the Clone Wars, where as Legion has already jumped in.
I would imagine it was a jump that was always planned, but likely one brought now in attempt to breath life into the game.
My first experience of 'outside the movies' Lucasfilm approved canon was the excellent source books by West End Games.
My personal take from them, initially, was that Rebel ground forces were more likely to be involved in mounting a fall back defence of bases that had been discovered by the Empire rather than large scale battles.
That said, when the Rebel Alliance sourcebook came out, it did expand those ground forces.
I think those books were also the first place that Clone Wars stalwarts like the Juggernaughts were seen. I believe they were based on Lucasfilm concept sketches for ESB that eventually became AT ATs.
Back on topic, as a Hoth junkie, I will certainly find purchasing a set or two of TaunTaun riders and the new Troopers hard to resist. They may find themselves defending my old Kenner Hoth Micro sets. They should be around the same scale.
Yodhrin wrote: And I'm sure that one day, HBMC will actually back up his repeated assertions to the contrary with some actual evidence.
The movies and Rebels stand as their own evidence.
Small partisan groups without any large-scale organisation that, at their height, coalesced into a cogent fleet using the majority of their resources capable of staging a raiding action ("We won't get another chance at this, Admiral.") against the 2nd Death Star.
To put in modern terms, the Rebel Alliance are the Viet Cong whereas the Republic armies are the NVA. One was eventually spent and could play no further role in the conflict (had it lost), the other is a proper military that fights against another proper military. One is the French Resistance. The other is the Allies.
Hmm, not a fan of the Obi-Wan mini but everything else looks great.
Hopefully they'll go back and release new boxes of rebels and stormtroopers with new poses, for variety.
Edit: Also, no sure if this is the place for this, but if anyone is going Celebration Chicago and can secure me one of those exclusive Vader expansions... PM me.
Oh boy. Proper plastic clone troopers and droids? I am sold!
Gonna have a great time painting all the different clone legion patterns and droid colours as well. I have ranted a few times in this thread how FFG needed to hurry up with the clone wars and they seem to have finally delivered a great product.
Looking forward to seeing what the B2 battle droids and specialist clones look like!
Hyped about this whole thing. Gonna drop some serious money on Clones. At least 2 core sets and probably 2 more individual packs of Clones. I want to fresh up to a full army with them pretty much right off the bat.
I do appreciate the different poses for Grievous, with two cores it'll allow me to have both poses for him.
As long as down the line I get ARC Troopers and Saber Tanks, I'll be a happy Republic player.
Aye, its looking good. hope the renders and resin masters are actually matching what they will be selling! Looking forward to seeing where they go with this, so many different options that have already been shown on the screen to be done. Commando droids had better be one of the first expansions.
I wonder if they're out of scale with the GCW stuff so that you couldn't use anything from the former with the latter. That would be hilarious as pure FFG.
Pretty unlikely as it’s all under the Legion system banner. Now, the real question is, is CW-era stuff balanced with GWC-era stuff? We could probably ask the X-Wing folks how this is hsaping up on their front.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
rybackstun wrote: I do appreciate the different poses for Grievous, with two cores it'll allow me to have both poses for him.
Y E S
This is how you ensure customers buy TWO core boxes. Core boxes are already the loss-leading sweet spot for value-minded players but FFG has really increaed the value for us by making Grievous multi-pose. It’s so smart.
Manchu wrote: Pretty unlikely as it’s all under the Legion system banner. Now, the real question is, is CW-era stuff balanced with GWC-era stuff? We could probably ask the X-Wing folks how this is hsaping up on their front.
The announcement article specifically states you can pit them against the existing factions. As for balance, we've only seen the base cards for the core units, but they seem fine. Clone Troopers are better Stormtroopers being a bit more accurate (4/8 instead of 3/8) on their primary weapon and having a more useful special ability put really pay for it at 13 ppm over the generic's 11.
Droids are the more interesting design, being easily the cheapest unit in ppm at a measly 6 ppm, but their stats SUCK at 2/8 to hit and a 6+ on their armor. On top of that, while they are easier to give orders to, their only special ability is a downside that essentially removes their ability to aim and forces them into shooting suboptimal targets if the opponent takes advantage of it.
Really nice to see true plastic sprues in sight. The first thought I had was "Awesome! Too bad the Battle Droids will all look like they are melting on those thin legs."
But hard plastic might make them look quite good!
The Clone Wars as an era really didn't catch my interest during the goofy too-dramatic prequel trilogy, but much like the original EU, lots of cool stuff was expanded upon post-movies, especially with the Clone Wars. As much as I love the original trilogy, the Clone Wars has a much better ready-made variety to give the game longevity.
Say what you want, but Clone Wars has TONS of troop variety and small-scale vehicles to mine from.
AegisGrimm wrote: The Clone Wars as an era really didn't catch my interest during the goofy too-dramatic prequel trilogy, but much like the original EU, lots of cool stuff was expanded upon post-movies, especially with the Clone Wars. As much as I love the original trilogy, the Clone Wars has a much better ready-made variety to give the game longevity.
Say what you want, but Clone Wars has TONS of troop variety and small-scale vehicles to mine from.
This was essentially by design. I remember when AotC came out Lucas said in an interview somewhere that the war itself wouldn't really be in the movies by saved for games and tv.
LunarSol wrote: FWIW, the vehicles are already hard plastic.
I was doubting you, but I went and checked and you're right. Priority supplies too. The figures on top of the vehicles are boardgame plastic though. Do you know if you can use plastic glue on those models?
LunarSol wrote: FWIW, the vehicles are already hard plastic.
I was doubting you, but I went and checked and you're right. Priority supplies too. The figures on top of the vehicles are boardgame plastic though. Do you know if you can use plastic glue on those models?
Plastic glue works fine on them. It's the same plastic we all know and love on the current vehicles I have (speeder bikes, AT-RT and AT-ST). And yes, the riders are PVC. You'll need super glue for those. But the vehicles themselves are plastic overall, which is needed to get firm and straight pieces.
They should do a sideboard like A Song of Ice and Fire and have Palpi/Sidious/The Senate interfere in your games.
Hang on. Before you attack with that unit we need do a filibuster roll (pass on a critical, reroll otherwise) and form a committee to roll those dice for you.
AduroT wrote: Are the vehicles styrene? I thought they were just a stiffer blend of pvc still.
They're styrene. Some pre-assembly has been done, but you can see the sprue marks as you go over them and they have that styrene ping to them. Definitely not PVC.
AduroT wrote: Are the vehicles styrene? I thought they were just a stiffer blend of pvc still.
They're styrene. Some pre-assembly has been done, but you can see the sprue marks as you go over them and they have that styrene ping to them. Definitely not PVC.
Again, can confirm. I've been sniffing glue, I mean, assembling models and scale kits for over 30 years and yes, the Legion vehicles are made of the good stuff.
There are a select few exceptions to this, like the handles on the speeder bikes which come attached to the rider's arm and are thus the same PVC the rider is made of, or the AT-RT's right handle which matches the left one that the rider is holding on to. I think the speeder bikes have a satchel or bedroll for decorating the back that is also PVC, but it's been a while and I don't remember all that well.
The AT-ST is completely plastic if I remember, since it doesn't have crew.
Fantasy Flight is decidedly going in the right direction with the new Clone Wars stuff. Destroyers on sprue are a lovely sight.
The standard infantry base is 25mm across the top and 27mm at the bottom (since the base edge is inclined and pretty tall). I think they are marketed as 27mm bases by FFG.
Watched through the Q&A again was surprised to hear that they plan on rereleasing pretty much everything in HIPS on sprues but the Clone Troopers and Obi from the new core are the old material (ABS/PVC?).
The game’s been pretty much totally dead here for some months now. I wonder if this might respark interest, both in having new stuff, and having more than just two sides to choose from. I know I personally am interested in the droids.
AduroT wrote: The game’s been pretty much totally dead here for some months now. I wonder if this might respark interest, both in having new stuff, and having more than just two sides to choose from. I know I personally am interested in the droids.
It seems to be doing well enough that FFG promised "years of stuff" during the reveal. I don't think I've ever seen FFG commit to that kind of product line length in advance... ever. Maybe X-Wing. Since the game isn't up in heaven with RuneWars, people must be playing it - maybe Legion is more played in dens and garages than gaming stores?
Its all down to local metas but I just get the feeling that so much of it is sold to people who just collect starwars stuff and never think of using it
(as opposed to real wargamers who buy stuff, think of using it and then stick it in a cupboard for a few years)
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: Its all down to local metas but I just get the feeling that so much of it is sold to people who just collect starwars stuff and never think of using it
(as opposed to real wargamers who buy stuff, think of using it and then stick it in a cupboard for a few years)
or for people buying gifts for starwars fans
I notice there are a good number of folks who do that as well, I hate X-wing, but I buy the ships for RPG as well as pieces from armada and legion, though I dont collect legion I do play it with freinds. Star Wars is a juggernaught of an IP.
I wished they had done this back before Disney bought starwars. The dark horse comics would have given so much materials for models specially for the separatist side like Dirge and all the dark jedi Dooku got on his side.
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: Its all down to local metas but I just get the feeling that so much of it is sold to people who just collect starwars stuff and never think of using it
I feel like this is a bit dismissive to Legion players. There's a lot of miniature games out there that I don't think I've ever seen people talk about playing (buying, sure, but not playing). To Legion's credit, I see people talking about the game all the time. I see more Legion chatter than Age of Sigmar - and I actively seek out Age of Sigmar discussions.
(as opposed to real wargamers who buy stuff, think of using it and then stick it in a cupboard for a few years)
I'd been hiding bits and pieces of my Pile of Shame around my house and I decided to put it all on the bed - it was higher than my head and took up the whole bed and two side tables. There's probably a thousand miniatures in that pile... Even if Legion players were just buying the models to collect, I'm not sure I can throw any stones from my glass house...
ingtaer wrote: Watched through the Q&A again was surprised to hear that they plan on rereleasing pretty much everything in HIPS on sprues but the Clone Troopers and Obi from the new core are the old material (ABS/PVC?).
Anyone got a link to this Q&A? If thats the case it took some wind out of my excitement. Seeems odd to have a mix of both materials in one box. The clone troopers aren't going to be as nice if that's the case. Seems like a bad way to start off a new faction especially when most of the stuff moving past that would be on sprues.
Anyone got a link to this Q&A? If thats the case it took some wind out of my excitement. Seeems odd to have a mix of both materials in one box. The clone troopers aren't going to be as nice if that's the case. Seems like a bad way to start off a new faction especially when most of the stuff moving past that would be on sprues.
It's really hard to hear in places. But they said that the next couple waves of Clone Wars would be PVC, but after that, it should all be on plastic frames - and then they'll go back and rerelease the old stuff on frames too. My impression is that we're at least a year away from mostly on-sprue new releases and probably two or more years away from an entirely polystyrene catalogue - and the game needs these factions sooner than later.
As someone who doesn't own Legion, especially because I was wary of the boardgame plastic of the figures (because I'd want to paint them), the hard plastic nature of Clone Wars (at least as far as non-clones goes) has me interested.
Especially as even sticking with canon colors would see Clones look more interesting than Stormtroopers as they would feature more color.
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: Its all down to local metas but I just get the feeling that so much of it is sold to people who just collect starwars stuff and never think of using it
I feel like this is a bit dismissive to Legion players. There's a lot of miniature games out there that I don't think I've ever seen people talk about playing (buying, sure, but not playing). To Legion's credit, I see people talking about the game all the time. I see more Legion chatter than Age of Sigmar - and I actively seek out Age of Sigmar discussions.
(as opposed to real wargamers who buy stuff, think of using it and then stick it in a cupboard for a few years)
I'd been hiding bits and pieces of my Pile of Shame around my house and I decided to put it all on the bed - it was higher than my head and took up the whole bed and two side tables. There's probably a thousand miniatures in that pile... Even if Legion players were just buying the models to collect, I'm not sure I can throw any stones from my glass house...
Not intending to be dismissive, as I say what gets played locally is very much down to the meta and whether you have friends who play certain games, I just mean that for a big game (compared to many games out there) i'm just not seeing the activity I'd expect to see unlike say warmachine in it's heyday which nobody round me was playing either but it was clear it was being played extensively elsewhere
and my guess as to why is it's selling to people who aren't the typical wargamer player or wargaming painter/collector
Anyone got a link to this Q&A? If thats the case it took some wind out of my excitement. Seeems odd to have a mix of both materials in one box. The clone troopers aren't going to be as nice if that's the case. Seems like a bad way to start off a new faction especially when most of the stuff moving past that would be on sprues.
It's really hard to hear in places. But they said that the next couple waves of Clone Wars would be PVC, but after that, it should all be on plastic frames - and then they'll go back and rerelease the old stuff on frames too. My impression is that we're at least a year away from mostly on-sprue new releases and probably two or more years away from an entirely polystyrene catalogue - and the game needs these factions sooner than later.
Yeah that's a bummer. I'm not sure I want to start a clone army on release then, and then a year or less later they've got a range of better sculpts for other things. All this does is make we want to sit back and wait even longer. But whatever, i'm just gonna have to think on this a while. Paint doesn't seem to stick to the PVC plastic very well, it's almost like using primer on resin, the bond isn't as strong. I try washing the mold release shiny stuff off them but it didn't do much good. I don't think plastic glue/cement works on them either. So when new players pick up the clone wars set and a tube of plastic glue they'll be like wtf trying to glue those clones together.
Yeah that's a bummer. I'm not sure I want to start a clone army on release then, and then a year or less later they've got a range of better sculpts for other things. All this does is make we want to sit back and wait even longer. But whatever, i'm just gonna have to think on this a while. Paint doesn't seem to stick to the PVC plastic very well, it's almost like using primer on resin, the bond isn't as strong. I try washing the mold release shiny stuff off them but it didn't do much good. I don't think plastic glue/cement works on them either. So when new players pick up the clone wars set and a tube of plastic glue they'll be like wtf trying to glue those clones together.
As far as the PVC goes, the sculpts are pretty good, they hold paint well enough (at least, my RuneWars figures do), and are only two or three pieces to super glue. Personally, most units in Legion can be found for $20, so even if they release better versions of a unit two years later, I wouldn't feel particularly put out, financially.
As an ex-RuneWars player and someone with a chip on my shoulder concerning FFG, I feel like there are plenty of reasons to be wary of Legion. I don't think the PVC models are one of them though.
Siygess wrote: Of course, the real question now is.. new Imperial Assault Clone Wars core box to follow?
As an Imperial Assault collector (and occasional player), your guess is as good as mine - one of the people from the IA area of the FFG board was in that session, and asked if there was any news for IA, only to be told that none of the people on the panel were involved with that game...
I really hope the clones aren't in bendy plastic. That would make no sense and be a real downer. Hopefully there have been some crossed wires and all in hard plastic.
Definitely not crossed wires, it was clearly stated (though I suppose the devs could have been wrong). Makes it sound like they will be released in HIPS later on down the line.
On IA, I very much fear it is dead gone and just like Runewars, but the news that stuff for Armada is still happening keeps a slim hope alive.
ingtaer wrote: Definitely not crossed wires, it was clearly stated (though I suppose the devs could have been wrong). Makes it sound like they will be released in HIPS later on down the line.
On IA, I very much fear it is dead gone and just like Runewars, but the news that stuff for Armada is still happening keeps a slim hope alive.
If the (rather excellent) Legends of the Alliance co-op app had featured paid-for content then I would share that sentiment. However, they have released the Jabba's Realm and Return to Hoth campaigns for free (the latter being quite recent) and the only reason I can think of that FFG would do this is to give people a continued reason to buy the existing IA content as it goes through reprint cycles. If they were winding down and just looking to empty their warehouses of the remaining IA stock, the development of the app and the two additional campaigns would seem like an unnecessary expense.
So while there is indeed no news, I am very much hoping for an Inperial Assault 2.0 launched as a clone wars era product
In fact I wouldn't be all that surprised if it was entirely app driven like the upcomming LotR game.
Lets hope so, Celebrations (11-15 April) have a campaign on every single day but the main thing will be the seminar on the Saturday. We know already x-wing is getting wave 5 announced so hopefully some can ask in the Q&A if there is news (beyond new maps) for IA if they do not announce anything.
The release plan for this now seems really muddled. Why release the clones in PVC if they are already saying hips versions are coming. How many people will hold off buying in until the objectively better versions come out. That leaves the game with 1 faction, droids, which will kill sales.
When it was first announced I figured I'd get 2-3 starter sets, but the clones being PVC means I'll only get 1.
Tamereth wrote: The release plan for this now seems really muddled. Why release the clones in PVC if they are already saying hips versions are coming.
I would suspect because it lets them release everything a year or two earlier than they would have otherwise had to wait to get everything made in HIPS.
Hrmmm, I hope the B1 Droids will be sold separately. I need the arms from them, and possibly the lower leg and torso. They look good though, and proportionally in scale as well, which is great.
Fenriswulf wrote: Hrmmm, I hope the B1 Droids will be sold separately. I need the arms from them, and possibly the lower leg and torso. They look good though, and proportionally in scale as well, which is great.
As a separate box, yep due for release same time as the new core set (Q3, 2019) priced $24.95US for 9 models. As separate sprues it is really doubtful.
Man, I should really learn to read properly. It was spelled out on page 33 and I completely missed it, thinking they were only available in the combined box itself. Gah.
In any case, thank you. I will keep an eye out for how the miniatures turn out. Hoping for open palm left hands so I can do gun conversions easier, but I don't know if that will be an option or not.
Fenriswulf wrote: Man, I should really learn to read properly. It was spelled out on page 33 and I completely missed it, thinking they were only available in the combined box itself. Gah.
In any case, thank you. I will keep an eye out for how the miniatures turn out. Hoping for open palm left hands so I can do gun conversions easier, but I don't know if that will be an option or not.
All good, there is a sprue pic doing the rounds somewhere as well (may very well be in the vid I linked above) that could answer that question.
Re: popularity, the ICv2 reports indicate Legion has been a top 5 minis game since its release, at times doing better than AoS and X-Wing. While it's possible that, as some have suggested, this is getting "carried" by SW fans who don't actually play the game, my impression thus far is that there's quite a robust scene.
(Just got back from Adepticon, where Legion had a major invitational tournament with awesome terrain, two streaming tables with live commentary from an "analysis desk", a 64-man "last chance qualifier" the day before the invitational, free flight and hotel to World Championships for the top 8, etc.)
have to admit t hat t he new core (clone wars) will at the very least make me buy the core to paint up. I think it would be a good way to get a few of my board game friends into wargaming. Not sure if my wargaming group would give it a try besides for the novelty of being star wars.
It's a solid rules system. Feels like someone's "how I would fix 40k" style project with a few quirks of its own, but its rules are worth a shot for veteran wargamers fwiw.
LunarSol wrote: It's a solid rules system. Feels like someone's "how I would fix 40k" style project with a few quirks of its own, but its rules are worth a shot for veteran wargamers fwiw.
I always felt it was more like "how can I get X-Wing players into something more 40k-like?"
cerealkiller195 wrote: have to admit t hat t he new core (clone wars) will at the very least make me buy the core to paint up. I think it would be a good way to get a few of my board game friends into wargaming. Not sure if my wargaming group would give it a try besides for the novelty of being star wars.
It would work on me. I've always rejected SWL because it's galactic civil war.
LunarSol wrote: It's a solid rules system. Feels like someone's "how I would fix 40k" style project with a few quirks of its own, but its rules are worth a shot for veteran wargamers fwiw.
I always felt it was more like "how can I get X-Wing players into something more 40k-like?"
funny, for me it feels more like Mantics FireFight with Scenarios and nothing like 40k
funny, for me it feels more like Mantics FireFight with Scenarios and nothing like 40k
I'd be surprised if FFG even knew what Mantic was. By 40k-like, I mean a hobby miniatures game rather than a prepaint hybrid game like X-Wing.
FFG wanted something more in the miniatures field. It's easy to see why. FFG basically owns the Ameritrash field and further growth requires moving into a new area of expertise. It opens up new product lines and customers. Miniatures seems like an obvious place to grow into, as FFG has a lot of experience making games that are basically miniature games already (X-Wing, Armada, BattleLore 2E, Battles of Westeros, Imperial Assault). The problem is that miniatures requires a lot more from the players. They are unassembled and unpainted and board gamers want none of that (the threads on Monsterpocalypse moving into hobby miniatures were so bitter and angry).
RuneWars was the first try. RuneWars was basically X-Wing but fantasy, and though they killed it after two years, I think it was actually a big success in doing what it was likely intended to do - be a dry run for Legion. They learned from their mistakes and Legion was able to close the gaps where board gamers were having trouble, as well as commit to a monthly release schedule that keeps the game alive in the minds of gamers. Now, X-Wing is kind of dropping a bit due to the second edition, and Legion is poised to take its place as a more profitable game for FFG in a new field. It's really impressive what they've done here, though I feel like another year or two of RuneWars would've been nice.
Kingsley wrote: Re: popularity, the ICv2 reports indicate Legion has been a top 5 minis game since its release, at times doing better than AoS and X-Wing. While it's possible that, as some have suggested, this is getting "carried" by SW fans who don't actually play the game, my impression thus far is that there's quite a robust scene.
Agreed. I think there are plenty of people just buying the models because they like Star Wars in the same way there are tons of people who just buy GW models because they like to collect them or paint them, and don't actually play any of the games. Lie me for example. Before Necromunda came out I hadn't played a GW game since... 4th edition 40K? But I would still buy models every now and then because I enjoyed painting them. Similarly, out of the 15-20 people I personally know who buy GW models on a regular basis, only 4 of them actually play any GW games on a regular basis. Mostly the rest either play rpgs or just collect and paint. Some of them are people like me who used to play a lot but no longer have the time, but quite a few of them have never played 40K or WH Fantasy, and their exposure to GW has been through the novels or games like Necormunda or Blackstone Fortress, or just seeing models ta the game shop and liking them.
Anyway, I'm enjoying Legion. Its a fun game, and after a year it feels like it has a lot of variety within its two factions.
funny, for me it feels more like Mantics FireFight with Scenarios and nothing like 40k
I'd be surprised if FFG even knew what Mantic was. By 40k-like, I mean a hobby miniatures game rather than a prepaint hybrid game like X-Wing.
As "know your competition" is important I would be surprised if those people making SW:L would not know about other SciFi Games on the market.
But I would have never guessed that you talk about "hobby miniature game" in general by saying 40k-like as 40k is a very specific part of the the tabletop gaming hobby.
Same you could say X-Wing is a Warhammer Underworlds like game
FFG wanted something more in the miniatures field. It's easy to see why. FFG basically owns the Ameritrash field and further growth requires moving into a new area of expertise. It opens up new product lines and customers. Miniatures seems like an obvious place to grow into, as FFG has a lot of experience making games that are basically miniature games already (X-Wing, Armada, BattleLore 2E, Battles of Westeros, Imperial Assault). The problem is that miniatures requires a lot more from the players. They are unassembled and unpainted and board gamers want none of that
This is a thing but i would not connect that to 40k as making an addition to their board games is kind of a logical step to keep those tabletop affine people that were not really happy with IA, but not upset the boardgamers as those still have their games.
And what FFG has learned is that just having a good game does not mean much as long as you don't have a strong IP that drives sales
cerealkiller195 wrote: have to admit t hat t he new core (clone wars) will at the very least make me buy the core to paint up. I think it would be a good way to get a few of my board game friends into wargaming. Not sure if my wargaming group would give it a try besides for the novelty of being star wars.
It would work on me. I've always rejected SWL because it's galactic civil war.
I don't know that I've ever met someone who actively disliked the Galactic Civil War era of Star Wars.
Were the prequels your introduction to the franchise?
cerealkiller195 wrote: have to admit t hat t he new core (clone wars) will at the very least make me buy the core to paint up. I think it would be a good way to get a few of my board game friends into wargaming. Not sure if my wargaming group would give it a try besides for the novelty of being star wars.
It would work on me. I've always rejected SWL because it's galactic civil war.
I don't know that I've ever met someone who actively disliked the Galactic Civil War era of Star Wars.
Were the prequels your introduction to the franchise?
He said that's why he rejected SWLegion; not SW as a whole. There's a tendency to view the game as something of a Napoleonic battlefield system that doesn't mesh with their idea of the Rebellion.
cerealkiller195 wrote: have to admit t hat t he new core (clone wars) will at the very least make me buy the core to paint up. I think it would be a good way to get a few of my board game friends into wargaming. Not sure if my wargaming group would give it a try besides for the novelty of being star wars.
It would work on me. I've always rejected SWL because it's galactic civil war.
I don't know that I've ever met someone who actively disliked the Galactic Civil War era of Star Wars.
Were the prequels your introduction to the franchise?
I enjoy the Galactic Civil War, but not as a setting for a tabletop wargame.
Legion's smaller scale compared to modern 40k does lend itself well to 'scrappy Rebels launch a lightning strike on a lightly defended Imperial position', so in that respect I do disagree with people who say it doesn't work as a setting. With that being said, it's not really for me. I like the larger scale of the Clone Wars in scope, even if the actual tabletop matches end up smaller. It's also a lot easier to imagine Obi-Wan and Grievous having a smack around than it is Luke suddenly meeting Vader in a field and having a fight we never heard about.
I am a prequel baby however and I much prefer the aesthetics of the Clones to the Empire.
Right, the Clone Wars leaves a lot more room for the kind of match ups a game like this requires. Han Solo doesn't fight against the Emperor and his guards, or comes close to it in any way, but Obi-Wan could meet up with basically any enemy general during the course of the war. The only real constraint is that Anakin and Grievous don't meet until Revenge of the Sith, at the end of the war.
I think maybe the GCW would do better if it had more generic named characters (or new ones, like Imperial Assault had). It doesn't stretch credibility for guy you've never heard of to face the Emperor and his guards quite the same way. The West End Games miniature game had you creating your own characters, and while you could meet named characters, you generally didn't have battles with all of them at the same time.
But I've decided that Legion is less about Star Wars narratives and is more like Mario Kart, where you have Link throwing bananas at a Splatoon inkling in Donkey Kong country. Or Smash Bros. It isn't about narratives. It's just about having fun. So the idea that you can have match ups where Luke teams up with Jyn Erso to battle a droid army led by Count Dooku... well, watch out for the blue shell...
As far as I'm concerned, Legion and X-Wing are the only Star Wars products currently being produced that actually remotely feels like Star Wars anymore.
I do wish that Rebels and Imperials had been designed a little more asymmetric, with Rebel armies consisting of fewer Core units and more Commander/Operative options. It's not a huge deal, but the 3 Core requirement in list building feels like a mistake overall.
cerealkiller195 wrote: have to admit t hat t he new core (clone wars) will at the very least make me buy the core to paint up. I think it would be a good way to get a few of my board game friends into wargaming. Not sure if my wargaming group would give it a try besides for the novelty of being star wars.
It would work on me. I've always rejected SWL because it's galactic civil war.
I don't know that I've ever met someone who actively disliked the Galactic Civil War era of Star Wars.
Were the prequels your introduction to the franchise?
They were but they're still mainly bad. I don't dislike the Galactic Civil War I just don't like the aesthetic of the rebels enough to play a wargame around their infantry whereas with Clone Wars I love both Clones and Droids.
Are there many canon tanks in Star Wars currently - other than the Droid stuff? Its unfortunate that the Imperial tank is just a heavily armoured transport vehicle. Not that there's any issues in having it. Rather, it'd just be a bit weird for the Empire to rolling out a transporter as an assault vehicle, as opposed to convoy operations.
Something like the MBT-8 Harrier or TX-130 Saber would seem more appropriate. They have to work with the canon of course, but calling that the Empire's tank is mincing terms a bit. There's real world tanks which have been converted to serve more of a duel role, but that thing's whole design puts it as a transporter first (otherwise have a variant which covers up the cargo bay, or turns it into a troop carrier. ...Though then it'd be a Heavy IFV - which again, there's real world heavy IFV with beefy weapons load outs).
Not really, unfortunately. Most vehicles tend to be speeders or walkers, and if it’s a tank it’s probably too big for this game or it’s a walker tank anyways.
Just guessing we’re probably gonna get a Wookiee vehicle/bug, a new AT-RT, the AAT, the STAAP, the smaller droid spider walker (3 legs with cannon coming out of face), and maybe the persuader class droid tank if we’re lucky. Can’t imagine we’ll get the hail fire droid or any clone verhicles much bigger than those. Next step up is the turbo tank and whatever the AT variant with the 3 legs are, if memory serves me.
Not sure if there's a photo embargo on stuff from Adepticon, but I've not seen anyone post pics of the display cabinet models yet. I have a bunch, but wanted to see if posting them is ok first.
Regarding lack of vehicles, the Rogue One TX-225 was built around the real world Alvis Stormer of which there are several variants. This one just happens to the transporter variant. No reason you can't have the same in the SW universe - at least, that's what I'll be doing with this model...
Its a pity there's no 1/48th scale Alvis Stormers to tear the back from. If I was willing to fork out the money for the Legion model I couldn't see using it in its original guise apart from in scenarios. Which is to say the way to go with Star Wars may well be converting plastic kits - and just saying their fictional vehicles in the Star Wars universe (I've been considering starting a rag tag Rebel or Mercenary force myself - without using any of the stock models of course).
The description behind it on their store page makes it seem like they're trying to take a random vehicle from the films and cram it into another role for the sake of having a "tank" (or heaven forbid a "Heavy Assault Tank"). Its like sticking a 30mm turret on a MT-LBM and saying there's no difference between that and a T-72. "Heavy Cargo Transporter" would been more appropriate.
Edit: And damn, there's this month's project. Turning a spare Greyhound armoured car kit into a light hover tank for Star Wars: Legion.
-iPaint- wrote: Not sure if there's a photo embargo on stuff from Adepticon, but I've not seen anyone post pics of the display cabinet models yet. I have a bunch, but wanted to see if posting them is ok first.
Shoretroopers look great, aside from the squad leaders pose. I prefer the leader to be directing the troops or something. Not just standing there like a dudebro.
Dewback is cool, great sculpt and would be pretty fun to paint I think.
Wyrmalla wrote: Are there many canon tanks in Star Wars currently
Ground vehicles never appeared on-screen (outside of Rogue 1), of course, so not really. West End Games had some in their RPG source books. And the various Star Wars RTS games had tanks, which might have been based off of the WEG ones (I don't recall). That's about as "canon" as you're going to get with tanks.
Timothy Zahn would occasionally include a ground vehicle that hadn't been seen on-screen in his novels, but those were all WEG creations (since the non-movie background fluff when Zahn wrote his first novels was essentially the WEG RPG sourcebooks).
The Dewback rider is cool, Shoretroopers I'm not fussed about because the concept always struck me as daftly specific. That said, they provide an opportunity to run Storm Commandos if someone wants to convert some Scouts, so that's cool for people who play the game.
And when it comes to Imperial Tanks, I need to find a copy of this one - apparently it's called a SC2-M Repulsor tank and a model was made for Imperial Assault. Looks similar to tank for the older SW Battlefront game.
A while ago I said I'd buy Star Wars Legion if they did Clone Wars. Well, here we are and I've preordered the Core Set. I'm super excited to build my droid army and I cannot wait until they release B2 Supers/BX-Commando droids and hopefully a tactical droid. So hyped.
Huh. I almost didn't recognize Dooku with his hands attached.
Still waiting for Ahsoka without whom I have little reason to get a Clone Wars force. Well, Bombad General Jar Jar might sway me, too.
Kroem wrote: ROGER ROGER... the droid models are really cool!
Chances of getting a Gungan warrior set to go with them seem low though...
I'm not following FFG outside of this thread, but any reason other than that they didn't show anything yet? In spite of featuring in Episode 1's big final battle, I imagine Gungans are pretty specialized, much like Wookies and Taun-Tauns. It stands to reason we'd see clones and battle droids first since they're the mainstay of the Clone Wars.
I can't say I remember any in different colors. It's been a while since I watched the Clone Wars, though. I do remember an episode where the Jedi used a couple of captured and reprogrammed B1s that had blue markings, and that didn't raise an eyebrow with the separatists they infiltrated. So I assume the standard color isn't necessarily the only accepted color in universe.
Did battle droids have different colour schemes during the Clone Wars or were they all the pale stone we see them in during Episode 1?
Some had colored markings on the head/legs/backpack, but I think they were largely brown. The assassin droids, which had slightly different heads, were black though. Also, the commander droids came in different colors.
Geifer wrote: I can't say I remember any in different colors. It's been a while since I watched the Clone Wars, though. I do remember an episode where the Jedi used a couple of captured and reprogrammed B1s that had blue markings, and that didn't raise an eyebrow with the separatists they infiltrated. So I assume the standard color isn't necessarily the only accepted color in universe.
Also, the droids that directly served the Geonosians had a much darker, red-brown colouration as standard.
But yeah, in general they're nowhere near as customisable as the clones if you want to stick to canon. Judging by some of the horrifying(to a rivet counter like myself) things folk have been doing to Stormtroopers though that won't be an issue, folk will paint the droids how they like.
Those Super Battle Droids look amazing. I can't wait to pick some up! Count Dooku is a bit of an obvious first pick for a Seperatist leader but I was kind of hoping for Asajj Ventress.
@Kroem
If you go by legends continuity some B1 Battle droids were painted in a gun metal/rusty brown color scheme (Per Republic Commando) and several B2s received forest camouflage. But if you want to stick to canon you could paint some B1s as Security Droids as they are functionally identical iirc.
TheCustomLime wrote: Those Super Battle Droids look amazing. I can't wait to pick some up! Count Dooku is a bit of an obvious first pick for a Seperatist leader but I was kind of hoping for Asajj Ventress.
She's more likely as an operative, IMO along with Jango.
TheCustomLime wrote: Those Super Battle Droids look amazing. I can't wait to pick some up! Count Dooku is a bit of an obvious first pick for a Seperatist leader but I was kind of hoping for Asajj Ventress.
She's more likely as an operative, IMO along with Jango.
I'm not familiar with the game but, that would make sense. She was not a major CIS commander.
The reveal of the AAT and the Saber tank has made me incredibly excited for this game. I was originally going to trade off my clones but, man, I frickin' love the Saber tank.
I dunno about the AAT, I want to see actual measurements of the model before I buy it to make sure the scale is correct - not buying blind again after the X-34.
ScarletRose wrote: I said if they did the prequels I'd do an Order 66 army, and well it looks like I need to get used to painting white now.
I'm really happy they're using hard plastic for some of the Legion stuff now.
They actually have since the beginning. The AT-RT, Speeder Bikes, Snowspeeder and AT-ST were all hard plastic at launch. There have been a few others since. The main difference is that we're seeing units done in it now.
Thanks for the droid colouring research Commander Cain! I knew that the accents change (yellow for commander, red for security etc.) but I'm really surprised that all the different corporations that deployed Battle Droids used the light stone. The darker burnt orange of Geonosian droids being the only different colour ones we see.
Maybe they are like those Ford cars where you can have any colour as long as it is black
There's also these from Republic Commando, the bare metal as they roll straight out of the factory and onto the battlefield. Could be cool to paint a squad or two like that,
I am a little bummed they couldn't do the phase 1 clones on sprues, but it sounds like the phase 2 should be (but they get no dc-15). The B2 droids look awesome and might have to get some just to paint even if I don't start that army, those were always my favorite battle droids.
Thargrim wrote: I am a little bummed they couldn't do the phase 1 clones on sprues, but it sounds like the phase 2 should be (but they get no dc-15). The B2 droids look awesome and might have to get some just to paint even if I don't start that army, those were always my favorite battle droids.
It is a little annoying, but with the caveat that they may well have "picked" the contents of the boxes sold at GenCon to create a positive first impression, it does seem as if they've improved the definition on their soft plastics with the Phase 1 troopers(and, presumably, the newer characters - Sabine and Bossk did seem a bit crisper than Leia & Han etc).
Of course, for OT fans that's a little bit galling, as it seems like we've provided FFG with the initial funding and market penetration they need to justify high quality models for Clone Wars, and our reward is inferior quality models and maybe, if they're feeling generous, the chance to buy them all again in hard plastic in a couple of years.
What's the difference between the early war clone troopers and late war clone troopers then?
The unpainted metal droid straight from the assembly line doesn't make a lot of sense to me. The droid factory on Geonosis clearly shows droid parts being painted in sub-assemblies prior to final assembly. So how would a fully assembled unpainted droid occur? You wouldn't want to paint after final assembly as you'd miss joints and internal surfaces which would then be vulnerable to corrosion making the paint kinda useless...
Kroem wrote: What's the difference between the early war clone troopers and late war clone troopers then?
Phase 2 Troopers have slightly superior armour, a good proportion of veteran Clones, and even the Shinies(brand new Clones) are a bit more effective than the original Phase 1 batches since their "education" is updated with more specific information on fighting the CIS Droid Army. That said, the difference isn't that huge other than the obvious visual changes, and I was a bit surprised to see they're actually making them distinct units.
The droids and Grievous are the same hard plastic sprues as in the expansion boxes, but the Phase 1 Clone Troopers, the Phase 1 BARC speeder crew, and Obi Wan are all PVC. But, as I said, they seem to have altered their mixture or process a bit, since the details(on weapons in particular) seem noticeably sharper.
Kroem wrote: What's the difference between the early war clone troopers and late war clone troopers then?
Phase 2 Troopers have slightly superior armour, a good proportion of veteran Clones, and even the Shinies(brand new Clones) are a bit more effective than the original Phase 1 batches since their "education" is updated with more specific information on fighting the CIS Droid Army. That said, the difference isn't that huge other than the obvious visual changes, and I was a bit surprised to see they're actually making them distinct units.
Agreed. It might have made more sense if the Phase 1 troopers were early war Phase 1 (and thus they all had DC-15A blasters) with the Phase 2 troopers all sporting DC-15S blasters.. but given that the DC-15A has been 'relegated' to support weapon status (as it was in the clone wars cartoons) it would have been a bit OP to have 5 or 6 of those per squad
So yeah, likely the Phase 2 troopers will exist purely to represent "veteran" clones, be that through survival and experience, or more tailored basic training.
Of course, for OT fans that's a little bit galling, as it seems like we've provided FFG with the initial funding and market penetration they need to justify high quality models for Clone Wars, and our reward is inferior quality models and maybe, if they're feeling generous, the chance to buy them all again in hard plastic in a couple of years.
I mean.... that's true of every game system ever really. Funding a new game system with metal or PVC models until they move on to something better is true of everyone, even GW.
I'd love to see a photo of the B1 droid sprue or of someone assembling them to see how the miniatures have turned out. I want them to convert with other parts to make my own droids, but I am waiting to see how these pan out. I have a ton of Antares Concord troops I was going to use, but these are more "droidy" if you could use that word than the Antares miniatures.
So, those 4 new core unit "alt" model boxes are interesting.
When the Rebel veterans came out I Iamented the need to have a bunch of cold weather guys in a primarily tropical-themed rebel force, a problem that also rears its head when it comes to the FD Laser Cannon crew, as well as the E-Web. It occured to me that FFG could just sell a box of.. 2 Rebel Trooper crewmen and a Rebel Trooper with mk2 Medium Blaster. Then players could buy some Veterans for the cards, a second box of basic troopers and this "alt crew" and field some regular weather veterans with the appropriate heavy weapon. Crazy right? But now I'm starting to think it could be possible..
They're not really alt models though, just additional heavy weapon options. These have the massive problem of needing to buy a box of 4 as many times as you need a copy of the one model you want to use. The commander expansions had a similar problem, as does notably the Strike squads.
LunarSol wrote: They're not really alt models though, just additional heavy weapon options.
It's not clear about the other boxes, but the Stormtrooper heavies can be modeled with regular E-11 blaster rifles:
Joining a Stormtrooper Captain are a Stormtrooper Specialist as well as a T-21 Stormtrooper and an RT-97C Stormtrooper that can both be constructed with their heavy weapons or the standard E-11 blaster rifle. These miniatures are accompanied by seven upgrade cards that allow you to incorporate them into your existing Stormtrooper units as well as a unit card inviting you to create a completely new unit.
I can't tell from the picture, but I think the Stormtrooper unit card might be the same as the original one, allowing you to build two Stormtrooper units from a unit box and an upgrade box.
LunarSol wrote: They're not really alt models though, just additional heavy weapon options.
It's not clear about the other boxes, but the Stormtrooper heavies can be modeled with regular E-11 blaster rifles:
Joining a Stormtrooper Captain are a Stormtrooper Specialist as well as a T-21 Stormtrooper and an RT-97C Stormtrooper that can both be constructed with their heavy weapons or the standard E-11 blaster rifle. These miniatures are accompanied by seven upgrade cards that allow you to incorporate them into your existing Stormtrooper units as well as a unit card inviting you to create a completely new unit.
I can't tell from the picture, but I think the Stormtrooper unit card might be the same as the original one, allowing you to build two Stormtrooper units from a unit box and an upgrade box.
Yeah, its a decent design; it just falls into the same trap 40k does; where the game really doesn't encourage squads with different configurations, so having 2 squads doesn't really help you if you only get 1 of the "right" special weapon.
Kroem wrote: The unpainted metal droid straight from the assembly line doesn't make a lot of sense to me. The droid factory on Geonosis clearly shows droid parts being painted in sub-assemblies prior to final assembly. So how would a fully assembled unpainted droid occur? You wouldn't want to paint after final assembly as you'd miss joints and internal surfaces which would then be vulnerable to corrosion making the paint kinda useless...
If the factory itself is under sustained attack, the facility might want to push droids out of the door as fast as possible and into the fight. So they skip the painting stage altogether - don't care how they look, or that they might corrode in a few months. This way we get an extra 30,000 battle droids between the clones and the factory door.
Kroem wrote: The unpainted metal droid straight from the assembly line doesn't make a lot of sense to me. The droid factory on Geonosis clearly shows droid parts being painted in sub-assemblies prior to final assembly. So how would a fully assembled unpainted droid occur? You wouldn't want to paint after final assembly as you'd miss joints and internal surfaces which would then be vulnerable to corrosion making the paint kinda useless...
If the factory itself is under sustained attack, the facility might want to push droids out of the door as fast as possible and into the fight. So they skip the painting stage altogether - don't care how they look, or that they might corrode in a few months. This way we get an extra 30,000 battle droids between the clones and the factory door.
This. The Russians did things like this when they were on the ropes in WWII, and later the Germans.
My apologies if there isn't a more recent thread for this game, but FFG just announced this:
FFG wrote: Whether repairing a starfighter on the fly or translating the binary language of moisture vaporators, droids can perform tasks that other beings simply cannot. But sometimes droids transcend their programming, using their many skills to help their allies in wholly unexpected ways. Such is the case with R2-D2 and C-3PO.
Throughout both the Clone Wars and the Galactic Civil War, these two iconic droids often took on critical objectives that sent them into the heart of battle—much to C-3PO’s chagrin. With the Crashed Escape Pod Battlefield Expansion for Star Wars™: Legion, you can make this dynamic droid duo an integral part of your Star Wars infantry battles.
In addition to a beautifully sculpted hard plastic crashed escape pod miniature, this expansion also includes hard plastic R2-D2 and C-3PO miniatures that can be become central objectives in two thrilling scenario that play out with six new battle cards. But R2-D2 and C-3PO can contribute more to your battles than simply serving as objectives. Two R2-D2 unit cards and two C-3PO unit cards invite you to add these resilient droids to your Galactic Republic or Rebel Alliance armies, while two upgrade cards and R2-D2’s three signature command cards open up even more ways to use them in battle.
Join us today as we take a look at what R2-D2 and C-3PO can contribute to your armies!
Now, I thought it was bad when FFG was bringing out destroyed versions of existing units; they had plumbed the exceptionally shallow depths of the GCW and found that the only new thing they could add was dead old things.
But now we have an escape pod w/3P0 and R2 in it. A solitary single event from the start of one movie is the latest release from FFG's flashship SW wargame.
Go back to Clone Wars guys. At least there's a fight there...
Like... you don't field the escape pod with the unit. It's a terrain/scenario piece separate from the droids in game. Since when I terrain kits a lack of ideas?
Considering how many Clone Wars episodes revolved around getting to an escape pod and/or its occupants I don't see why having a model and scenario cards for it is a problem.
Complaining about the release of 2 iconic characters (the only 2 to be in all 8 main Saga movies) and a terrain piece is a bit odd. Makes more sense for them to be on the field than Palpatine, and it's not like they haven't featured heavily in every single other version of a Star Wars minis game so far: they were in the original West End SWMB, the WotC CMG, and Imperial Assault. Palpatine was also in all 3 of those, so it's not like this is new ground that FFG is treading upon
Skirmish looks OK, it's basically just new scenario/setup cards and a lower cap on how many of each unit type you can field. Games are 5 rounds instead of 6. FFG has a 5 page PDF for it that includes the cards
Oh, absolutely. I've become a HUGE fan of anything on a 3x3, I wish all skirmish games adopted that size. 3x6 might as well be a 4x6 table, and even a 4x4 might as well be a 4x6 in many cases, but a 3x3 fits really well on a non-gamer's kitchen table or coffee table. It's one of the big reasons X-Wing got so popular, non-gamers and beginner gamers could play it without building and dedicating a surface just to gaming, just throw down a neoprene mat and start a game
I'll be playing skirmish mode when I need a faster game.
Although a friend was concerned that Clones already have such a low unit count that they may be at a disadvantage in Skirmish. Looking forward to hearing from others on that.
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