It appears that FFG will be streaming a Star Wars Hyperspace Report on May 1st, giving a "closer look at upcoming Star Wars products". I think last time they did something like this, they announced new waves for Armada and X-Wing, and showed Legion for the first time.
We got it in, sold out. Got more in, sold out. Third shipment, sold out of Imperials. Fourth shipment is finally has stuff sitting on the shelf. Have gone thru over twenty of the core boxes, not sure how many expansions. I don’t think it’d be worth the effort to flip because there doesn’t seem to be any difficulty in acquiring more product thru normal channels if it does really well in ones area, so there’s no real shortages I’ve heard of.
Good god look at Fett and those scouts, have been trying to stay away from this as don’t want to start another game but I need those minis. Damn you FFG.
So these are supposed to be the "Mirror" units for Empire against Solo and the Endor Troopers, eh? Neat. Love the looks of both and am VERY happy to see a Sniper Scout
The models look great. I'm just pleased the photos always show so many cards and tokens. It means my money stays in my wallet. I already play X-wing - I can't be doing with what feels like another TCG.
Apart from not wanting to start another game, the amount of cards in this game have kind of put me off. But like I said dem scouts are too cool. Now if they come out with ewoks I can see myself having trouble staying away.
Mind you a scavenger group of Jawas trying to secure a group of droids before the sand people turn up would be a cool theme too.
I honestly don't understand why people hate the cards. Do you not understand that the cards have absolutely zero gameplay function and are purely a rules reference? That they are just your "codex", except cut up into card-size pieces that you can put out on the table as a convenient reference instead of having to flip through a book to find the right page for a unit? And that, if you don't feel that you need the reference out at all times, you can omit the cards entirely without losing anything?
Peregrine wrote: I honestly don't understand why people hate the cards. Do you not understand that the cards have absolutely zero gameplay function and are purely a rules reference? That they are just your "codex", except cut up into card-size pieces that you can put out on the table as a convenient reference instead of having to flip through a book to find the right page for a unit? And that, if you don't feel that you need the reference out at all times, you can omit the cards entirely without losing anything?
Not only this, but unlike X wing you only need to get expansions for one faction. The way they are handling the cards in this game isn't as bad as X wing where you'd need to buy an expansion just for 1-2 cards you need. A lot of the cards are specific to a unit, or commander. And the generic ones are in expansions on both sides.
Peregrine wrote: I honestly don't understand why people hate the cards. Do you not understand that the cards have absolutely zero gameplay function and are purely a rules reference? That they are just your "codex", except cut up into card-size pieces that you can put out on the table as a convenient reference instead of having to flip through a book to find the right page for a unit? And that, if you don't feel that you need the reference out at all times, you can omit the cards entirely without losing anything?
It’s not a case of hating the cards as such, just more a case of storage for me. Sure I could leave the cards out but I’m still going to have to store them somewhere.
They also announced a new unit type which Boba and Han fill, Operative. They act as an indivigual like a Commander but don’t issue orders to other units, just themselves.
AduroT wrote: They also announced a new unit type which Boba and Han fill, Operative. They act as an indivigual like a Commander but don’t issue orders to other units, just themselves.
Han actually is a commander, I imagine down the line Chewbacca would be considered an Operative.
Peregrine wrote: I honestly don't understand why people hate the cards. Do you not understand that the cards have absolutely zero gameplay function and are purely a rules reference? That they are just your "codex", except cut up into card-size pieces that you can put out on the table as a convenient reference instead of having to flip through a book to find the right page for a unit? And that, if you don't feel that you need the reference out at all times, you can omit the cards entirely without losing anything?
It’s not a case of hating the cards as such, just more a case of storage for me. Sure I could leave the cards out but I’m still going to have to store them somewhere.
I don't see how this is a problem. You're talking about what, a 6" cube to hold an entire collection of cards? Maybe a shoe box if you really go all-in on Legion and buy a ton of copies of everything? That's a trivial amount of space, especially compared to the miniatures.
Its a problem when space is a premium, I don’t really have the space to store yet another game with all the extras it brings.
Like i said earlier I was staying away from legion as don’t want to start another game but then saw the scout minis. But hey each to their own I didn’t come on here to argue about storing cards and such.
Peregrine wrote: I honestly don't understand why people hate the cards. Do you not understand that the cards have absolutely zero gameplay function and are purely a rules reference? That they are just your "codex", except cut up into card-size pieces that you can put out on the table as a convenient reference instead of having to flip through a book to find the right page for a unit? And that, if you don't feel that you need the reference out at all times, you can omit the cards entirely without losing anything?
You don't need to buy multiple codexes if you want to give additional squads Lascannons, and while it's true in theory that you could just not bother with the cards at all and write down all the rules on your army list or make your own duplicates, judging by the existing FFG community's antics on forums and facebook since the game launched in practice you either own and bring all the cards you need or you'll struggle to get a pickup game. These people have made serious, in-depth arguments that scenic bases are actual cheating, that converting models is unfair to your opponent because it changes the silhouette from the official FFG-intended one, and yes that not owning every single card and having them all laid out at the table edge is "illegal" because that's how the rules tell you to play. There were disturbingly few people disputing this kind of nonsense, even for semi-casual(ie not in an organised event, but not in your own home) play.
Also, it's a lot harder to lose the the unit entry and their equipment list when they're a page bound in a book rather than a bunch of fiddly wee half-size cards.
With them making an official list building app for X-Wing, I think they could get a ton of good will by doing the same for Legion and no longer requiring a physical copy of every instance of a card across your army.
AduroT wrote: With them making an official list building app for X-Wing, I think they could get a ton of good will by doing the same for Legion and no longer requiring a physical copy of every instance of a card across your army.
Well considering they still intend to require you own a physical copy of every instance of a card for X-Wing 2.0, I doubt that'll happen. The app is just a lisbuilder with points they can change on the fly, everything else is still on the cards and events(and thus, because what goes for tournaments is apparently the holy Word of The Lord to a big part of the FFG fanbase, pretty much everywhere else too) will require you have them all.
Do the apps (for x-wing or legion) allow you to print a roster with all of the data you need to play a game without having to delve through folders/boxes for particular cards?
Yodhrin wrote: judging by the existing FFG community's antics on forums and facebook since the game launched in practice you either own and bring all the cards you need or you'll struggle to get a pickup game.
This goes directly against my experience with FFG games. In pickup X-Wing games cards are not an issue. At least half the players bring printed lists from online squad builders instead, playtesting with standard tournament lists is often done with just the ship cards on the table (and only to hold shield tokens and damage cards), and I have never seen anyone refuse a game because of a missing upgrade card. The only time cards have ever been required is in FFG-sanctioned events, where FFG imposes the requirement as proof of purchase. Outside of that nobody gives a about proving to FFG that you spent enough money on the game.
These people have made serious, in-depth arguments that scenic bases are actual cheating, that converting models is unfair to your opponent because it changes the silhouette from the official FFG-intended one, and yes that not owning every single card and having them all laid out at the table edge is "illegal" because that's how the rules tell you to play.
One of these things is not like the others. Scenic bases and conversions are a legitimate issue in a game with TLOS, and it's entirely reasonable to object to something that changes how a model functions in the game (much like having a custom ship base in X-Wing with a larger firing arc). Having the cards may be "illegal" but it has zero gameplay function and I have never seen anyone care about it.
Also, it's a lot harder to lose the the unit entry and their equipment list when they're a page bound in a book rather than a bunch of fiddly wee half-size cards.
Also not a thing I have seen any problems with. I can't remember ever losing any cards, and even if you do you can always use the internet as a rules reference. IMO I'll take the cards for convenience of use and just be careful to keep track of all of my stuff in the official FFG events where I have to take them out of the box.
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Gimgamgoo wrote: Do the apps (for x-wing or legion) allow you to print a roster with all of the data you need to play a game without having to delve through folders/boxes for particular cards?
Yep. Third-party squad builders can print a list that includes all the rules you need, in a more convenient from than the cards. Outside of FFG's own events this is a standard way of playing the game.
Yodhrin wrote: judging by the existing FFG community's antics on forums and facebook since the game launched in practice you either own and bring all the cards you need or you'll struggle to get a pickup game.
This goes directly against my experience with FFG games. In pickup X-Wing games cards are not an issue. At least half the players bring printed lists from online squad builders instead, playtesting with standard tournament lists is often done with just the ship cards on the table (and only to hold shield tokens and damage cards), and I have never seen anyone refuse a game because of a missing upgrade card. The only time cards have ever been required is in FFG-sanctioned events, where FFG imposes the requirement as proof of purchase. Outside of that nobody gives a about proving to FFG that you spent enough money on the game.
Ah well, your anecdote completely disproves the multiple hundred-comment threads on the various facebook groups with people stating exactly the opposite, problem solved
These people have made serious, in-depth arguments that scenic bases are actual cheating, that converting models is unfair to your opponent because it changes the silhouette from the official FFG-intended one, and yes that not owning every single card and having them all laid out at the table edge is "illegal" because that's how the rules tell you to play.
One of these things is not like the others. Scenic bases and conversions are a legitimate issue in a game with TLOS, and it's entirely reasonable to object to something that changes how a model functions in the game (much like having a custom ship base in X-Wing with a larger firing arc). Having the cards may be "illegal" but it has zero gameplay function and I have never seen anyone care about it.
First, the game doesn't use proper TLOS, it uses a weird hybrid system that nonetheless retains the single key feature of TLOS that makes your point total nonsense; any change in size and shape applies both ways, by making easier to see you make yourself easier to be seen, and the reverse, so the idea that conversions and scenic bases can meaningfully affect the outcomes of games is a farcical idea. But, regardless, there isn't actually the difference you state there is, because the underlying logic being used in all three cases is the same: You Must Use What Is Official Exactly As The Rulebook Decrees. It's not a coincidence that the same people making the former two arguments often make the latter one as well.
Also, it's a lot harder to lose the the unit entry and their equipment list when they're a page bound in a book rather than a bunch of fiddly wee half-size cards.
Also not a thing I have seen any problems with. I can't remember ever losing any cards, and even if you do you can always use the internet as a rules reference. IMO I'll take the cards for convenience of use and just be careful to keep track of all of my stuff in the official FFG events where I have to take them out of the box.
Ah well, there we have it. Once again, it's an issue that hasn't personally affected Peregrine, so obviously it's not an issue at all
Having once had a fairly large MTG collection, I can absolutely assure you that cards can get lost, and if the "you have to own the cards" sentiment is as commonplace as social media seems to suggest it is - which I am more inclined to take as an indicator than one person asserting "nu-uh" - then "just use the internet as a reference" isn't much of a solution.
Yodhrin wrote: Ah well, your anecdote completely disproves the multiple hundred-comment threads on the various facebook groups with people stating exactly the opposite, problem solved
People say stupid stuff on the internet, and mine is hardly the only anecdote. The card issue does not exist in real games.
First, the game doesn't use proper TLOS, it uses a weird hybrid system that nonetheless retains the single key feature of TLOS that makes your point total nonsense; any change in size and shape applies both ways, by making easier to see you make yourself easier to be seen, and the reverse, so the idea that conversions and scenic bases can meaningfully affect the outcomes of games is a farcical idea. But, regardless, there isn't actually the difference you state there is, because the underlying logic being used in all three cases is the same: You Must Use What Is Official Exactly As The Rulebook Decrees. It's not a coincidence that the same people making the former two arguments often make the latter one as well.
"TLOS works both ways" is not an excuse. For example, getting a bit of extra height to see over a wall may be of much more value than being out of LOS when talking about an alpha strike type unit that is there to deliver firepower even if it means dying to do so. Or maybe the unit has a range advantage so being visible to return fire is irrelevant. Or maybe it's the opposite, having a lower pose on a low-firepower objective camper makes it harder to remove from the objective while losing the ability to shoot is a marginal penalty. There's a reason why "modeling for advantage" is a concept in other games, just like the concept of playing a custom model according to the LOS profile of the standard kit. The Legion community just doesn't have the baggage of GW's careless attitude towards the rules and apparently takes MFA rules to their natural conclusion.
And, again, the underlying logic is not the same at all. People object to LOS changes because it makes a functional difference in how the game is played. Owning official copies of all of the cards does not change how the game is played in any way. That's why people like me can play strict RAW in X-Wing when it comes to actual gameplay issues but not give a about putting out a bunch of irrelevant paper just to prove to FFG that you spent at least $X on the game.
Ah well, there we have it. Once again, it's an issue that hasn't personally affected Peregrine, so obviously it's not an issue at all
It really isn't an issue. Once every few months you can take one squad's worth of cards out of the box for a FFG tournament, and the rest of the time you can play with printed lists from online squad builders and never touch the cards. TBH you're more likely to lose a codex that you have to bring to every game than an X-Wing card that rarely leaves home.
Anyways! there's a bit of an issue with the Boba Fett expansion that I am curious about. The way Bounty is worded seems like so long as anything kills Boba's target you get the extra victory point. I am not sure this is intended.
There's also the fact that Immobilization tokens aren't defined in the rules reference.. But given Boba Fett's release is a ways off, I imagine that they'll be adding that in later.
This card thing seems easy to adjudicate. If official events don't require you to have the cards then they're just a convenience that doesn't impact collecting the game. If they are then the card bloat and cost is a legitimate negative that can and will put people off the game. How anybody's particular group of friends play it is irrelevant to everyone outside their group, and extrapolation from anecdotes is a waste of time.
My only issue with the cards is organizing them. Right now its fine, but they eventually just get to a point where finding the cards I need for a list takes longer than foaming the models. It's not an unsolvable problem, but its one I don't deal with with games that have gone digital and is just kind of a hassle. I tried to adhere to the cards in X-Wing to my detriment; wandered away from the game for a while and really only came back when I sucked it up and started playing exclusively via the unofficial apps.
Legion is in many ways MUCH better than X-Wing and in a couple ways a little more annoying. The more annoying is definitely if you have multiple units with any equipment variance. That said, I've played enough games now that I don't even need to cards for reference and the only ones that feel crucial are the ones that need to be tapped to use.
They're trying to get the look from the films, while also not doing anything too intricate as they're not used to selling things that aren't prepainted
I have Leia on my desk now. The pose is good but the face is weird. They've all got big lips, overly sharp brows and cheekbones, and too-deep eyes (basically hollow sockets).
Do we know if they have the rights to make minis based on the Imperial Army troops from Solo? I'd love to buy some so I can finally stop gluing my precious WGF samurai heads onto Wehrmacht bodies.
They almost certainly do since they just previewed Lando's version of the Millenium Falcon for X-Wing. Also announced premium bases for Legion. No mention of material, but probably safe to assume it's going to be plastic
With Netrunner now dead, I have concerns about Legion. It’s not like wildly popular Star Wars games before weren’t prematurely ended due to licensing issues. It was a concern before with me, but if something as big as Netrunner can be taken down...
Sqorgar wrote: With Netrunner now dead, I have concerns about Legion. It’s not like wildly popular Star Wars games before weren’t prematurely ended due to licensing issues. It was a concern before with me, but if something as big as Netrunner can be taken down...
If FFG loses star wars, it takes an incredibly huge chunk given X-wing, Star Wars Destiny, and just.. everything really.
Netrunner being taken down at this point is not surprising, WOTC is losing overall market share for MTG and they likely bumped up licensing, or figured FFG might be a threat with it's own card games at this point. It's akin to when they started hitting the miniatures market and then GW pulled out as well.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: If FFG loses star wars, it takes an incredibly huge chunk given X-wing, Star Wars Destiny, and just.. everything really.
Exactly. Losing the SW license could cripple FFG, and that alone gives competitors like Hasbro a real reason to outbid them for the license. Decipher lost the SW license due to WotC taking it, and West End Games lost the license as well. Also, the Disney Infinity series was unilaterally ended when Disney decided that they didn’t want to make games anymore and focus on licensing - Disney is known to be fickle about this sort of stuff. I feel like the SW license is even more prone to being lost than Netrunner.
Netrunner being taken down at this point is not surprising, WOTC is losing overall market share for MTG and they likely bumped up licensing, or figured FFG might be a threat with it's own card games at this point. It's akin to when they started hitting the miniatures market and then GW pulled out as well.
We don’t know why either of those licenses broke down. That’s just speculation. But the fact is, FFG has lost two major licenses in 2(?) years, and it has been pretty devastating to their catalog. I’d start eyeing the SW games with a bit more suspicion, if I were them.
Given how much FFG has invested in Star Wars games, I'd be surprised if they don't attempt every avenue of possibility to keep the SW License. I wouldn't worry about it just yet.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: WOTC is losing overall market share for MTG and they likely bumped up licensing, or figured FFG might be a threat with it's own card games at this point.
Maybe or maybe FFG have looked at the numbers and decided that Netrunner has run its course. Surely there comes a point where sales just arnt cutting it when compared to development costs of new sets.
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rybackstun wrote: Given how much FFG has invested in Star Wars games, I'd be surprised if they don't attempt every avenue of possibility to keep the SW License. I wouldn't worry about it just yet.
Surely with releasing 2 new/refurbished Star Wars games this year they would have 2+ years (minimum) remaining on the license to achieve profit levels. As you say, i wouldnt worry about it any time soon.
Maybe or maybe FFG have looked at the numbers and decided that Netrunner has run its course. Surely there comes a point where sales just arnt cutting it when compared to development costs of new sets.
I genuinely don't believe it was on FFG's end given the sudden drop of a pack, a new second edition version of core that just dropped, and new tournaments were already in plan along with a set. This entirely speaks of WOTC's end.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: I genuinely don't believe it was on FFG's end given the sudden drop of a pack, a new second edition version of core that just dropped, and new tournaments were already in plan along with a set. This entirely speaks of WOTC's end.
Fair call, I wasnt aware of those things. I could see a single set being released close to expiration date due to the months of development/printing/distribution time but a 2nd ed as well certainly points to the belief that the game would be further extended.
MangoMadness wrote: Surely with releasing 2 new/refurbished Star Wars games this year they would have 2+ years (minimum) remaining on the license to achieve profit levels. As you say, i wouldnt worry about it any time soon.
But what happens after 2 years? Do you only play a miniature game for 2 years?
See, one of the things that makes the Star Wars license a liability is that Disney could buy Hasbro (which is WotC's parent company). There were rumors to that effect a few years ago, and Hasbro makes the toys for Star Wars, Marvel, Disney Princess, Frozen, and a bunch of others. If Disney were to purchase Hasbro or if FFG somehow pissed off Disney (apparently really easy to do), FFG could lose the Star Wars license in a heartbeat.
For instance, here is an article from February in which it discusses a Hasbro/Mattel merger that has been rumored since November. Here's the relevant part about how petty Disney is and how important Hasbro's business is to them:
Mattel, for example, had been a longtime maker of dolls for Disney, and said it generated about $300 million annually from the Princess line (though analysts peg the number closer to $500 million). But it made a fatal mistake of developing a competing line of princess dolls, one which never amounted to much in terms of sales, but angered Disney, which then gave Hasbro the right to make the dolls.
It was the same problem that arose when Hasbro and DreamWorks Animation were rumored to be in merger talks. Disney had to consider that its toymaking partner might become a major movie-making competitor.
Now, I'm a pessimist by trade, pessimist by heart, so this worrying is probably for naught. But, like I said, I've been burned by the Star Wars license unceremoniously being snatched away before.
MangoMadness wrote: Surely with releasing 2 new/refurbished Star Wars games this year they would have 2+ years (minimum) remaining on the license to achieve profit levels. As you say, i wouldnt worry about it any time soon.
But what happens after 2 years? Do you only play a miniature game for 2 years?
See, one of the things that makes the Star Wars license a liability is that Disney could buy Hasbro (which is WotC's parent company). There were rumors to that effect a few years ago, and Hasbro makes the toys for Star Wars, Marvel, Disney Princess, Frozen, and a bunch of others. If Disney were to purchase Hasbro or if FFG somehow pissed off Disney (apparently really easy to do), FFG could lose the Star Wars license in a heartbeat.
.
Isn't this just complete supposition? Certainly no reason not to buy into a SW game (and this is the game that many wargamers dreamed of, in terms of the minis, for many, many years) on the offchance that it might go pair-shaped.
MangoMadness wrote: Surely with releasing 2 new/refurbished Star Wars games this year they would have 2+ years (minimum) remaining on the license to achieve profit levels. As you say, i wouldnt worry about it any time soon.
But what happens after 2 years?
IF (big IF) FFG had the rights for 2 years then all they would care about is maximizing profit on the license in that 2 years.
Sqorgar wrote: Do you only play a miniature game for 2 years?
They dont care how long you play the game for once they cant sell it anymore, they dont even care if you never play the game, all they care about is you buying the game what you do with it from there is your business
As a side note people play games that havent been sold in over 20+ years while many games get released and then discontinued before you can blink. Its just a product, what the customer does with it it their concern but from a business point of view they need a compelling profit to continue to support game lines and the rights (if needed) to do so
It is silly, I admit. I'm just really out of sorts because of Netrunner's end. I mean, FFG has ended good, popular games without licensing issues before as well (BattleLore 2E, Runebound 3E), so it isn't like a license vulnerability is really any more dangerous than FFG's regular operations. Hell, I play Runewars, and up until a few weeks ago, I was sure that FFG had abandoned it like they abandoned everything else.
I'm curious to see how Legion grows and changes over the years. It's a good, fun game, though probably not even in my top 10 Star Wars games. It's not even the best squad level Star Wars skirmish game I own. So I'm eager to see what FFG does with the game. A few really good expansions could move it up the list a bit.
ph34r wrote:I felt burned by FFG's 40k Conquest game so I'm definitely not hopping on any of their games until it is venerable.
I am not saying you are wrong here, but I don't understand the statement. Wasn't it GW who pulled the license from FFG? So how is it FFG fault? Shouldn't you be mad at GW and not FFG? If this is not the case, how come you felt burned? Just trying to understand.
ph34r wrote:I felt burned by FFG's 40k Conquest game so I'm definitely not hopping on any of their games until it is venerable.
I am not saying you are wrong here, but I don't understand the statement. Wasn't it GW who pulled the license from FFG? So how is it FFG fault? Shouldn't you be mad at GW and not FFG? If this is not the case, how come you felt burned? Just trying to understand.
That one's understandable because GW pulled about the time that FFG decided to make their own miniatures game (Runewars) and then announced Star Wars Legion as well that could potentially deal with the market share they were after. That may have been a bit much for GW to handle as it seems they were fine when they were doing everything else.
Though if you want to stay safe, go for the FFG properties they own. L5R is now 100% theirs for example, and I really don't know what you can do to get a Cthulhu license pulled from you.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: That one's understandable because GW pulled about the time that FFG decided to make their own miniatures game (Runewars) and then announced Star Wars Legion as well that could potentially deal with the market share they were after. That may have been a bit much for GW to handle as it seems they were fine when they were doing everything else.
That's just speculation. I doubt Runewars would've caused GW to do anything except laugh (I say this as a big RW fan). If it was anything, it was X-Wing Miniatures or potentially Legion, if GW found out about it early. But there's a lot of other things that could've caused it. GW's new leadership may have just not liked the terms FFG was offering (like the exclusivity) and maybe one of the FFG guys slept with a GW guy's wife and you know how those things go. It's all speculation.
Though if you want to stay safe, go for the FFG properties they own. L5R is now 100% theirs for example, and I really don't know what you can do to get a Cthulhu license pulled from you.
FFG owns the Arkham Files IP, but apparently, they license some stuff from Chaosium from the Call of Cthulhu RPG. I've heard other variations of this agreement too (like FFG owns it all and Chaosium gets to use it), so I'm not sure what to believe. But the Arkham Files has been with FFG longer than anything else. Game of Thrones and LotR have also been there a while.
L5R, Android, and Terrinoth are FFG-owned properties, so there's no license vulnerability there. Android now no longer has a flagship product, but I'll tell you what, I wouldn't say no to an Infinity-like skirmish miniature game set in the Android world. Android has a woefully limited number of miniatures dedicated to it.
What I found interesting is that FFG did not license Wings of War. Originally, they were going to (even designer credit to the WoW designers), but apparently got into a fight with the publisher and they decided to go ahead without the license. Not sure how that works. But X-Wing, like Legion, is beholden only to Star Wars.
ph34r wrote:I felt burned by FFG's 40k Conquest game so I'm definitely not hopping on any of their games until it is venerable.
I am not saying you are wrong here, but I don't understand the statement. Wasn't it GW who pulled the license from FFG? So how is it FFG fault? Shouldn't you be mad at GW and not FFG? If this is not the case, how come you felt burned? Just trying to understand.
I mean yeah maybe it's on me for not anticipating that a game would last such a short amount of time... I'm used ti Magic The Gathering where you can step away and come back in a decade and it will still be there. I basically spent all my time in Conquest waiting for them to print some Iron Warrior or Adeptus Mechanicus generals and cards so I could make a deck with a theme I like, but it was not to be.
ph34r wrote:I felt burned by FFG's 40k Conquest game so I'm definitely not hopping on any of their games until it is venerable.
I am not saying you are wrong here, but I don't understand the statement. Wasn't it GW who pulled the license from FFG? So how is it FFG fault? Shouldn't you be mad at GW and not FFG? If this is not the case, how come you felt burned? Just trying to understand.
I mean yeah maybe it's on me for not anticipating that a game would last such a short amount of time... I'm used ti Magic The Gathering where you can step away and come back in a decade and it will still be there. I basically spent all my time in Conquest waiting for them to print some Iron Warrior or Adeptus Mechanicus generals and cards so I could make a deck with a theme I like, but it was not to be.
Magic's longevity is a rarity. There are few hobby games I've seen that have lasted more that five years (I'd say most games usually survive around 2 years with support) without interruption or without major alterations.
As for the GW - FFG split up, I think it was a case GW wanted to take its ball home and keep all the profits for themselves. FFG had Star Wars, so losing GWs games was probably a small bother, if any. I mean, they do have their own versions now.
I had heard that part of the agreement was that FFG wouldn't make a 40k/Fantasy competitor, which was why they weren't doing a unit based Star Wars game in the past.
Feel free to start a thread discussing the licensing aspect in the appropriate subforum.
But please stick to discussing news and rumors in this thread.
There doesn't seem to be any news about or rumors regarding FFG losing the SW license. So discussing speculation about whether/when/how that might happen is off-topic here.
As much as Star Wars Pissed me off, I really am starting to like the look of these figures. It is pretty quiet in the game front, but HOW DOES THIS GAME PLAY? Do You Like It? Is It Easy to get into?
I want to get a squad of Stormtroopers, and a squad of these fleet guys to try out. I'll probably use that paint tutorial for the Imperial Assault for them to get them on the table.
My problem with the Fleet Troopers is that they don't match the Endor commando theme of the other figures. The Laser Cannon is from Hoth too (as are Veers, the Snowtroopers, and E-Web team). I know there is only 3 (maybe 4 or 5) movies to choose from, and there's even fewer large battle scenes, but it just feels too hodge podge for me. And what happens after the Endor and Hoth battles have been milked? Will the Empire be running Gamorian Guards, Snow Troopers, Tuskin Raiders, and Royal Guard led by the Emperor versus the Rebel's Ewoks, Bothans, Fleet Troopers, and Pit Droids led by Lando?
I really like Legion's gameplay, but there's something off about its use of Star Wars that I just can't put my finger on. It doesn't seem to come together as a cohesive whole to me, and it isn't just that the units are all willy nilly. Maybe it needs to have just a few named Rebel characters and a few grunts versus a much larger Imperial army or something. It feels weird for the Rebels to have the same number of people on the field.
We have the Scarif battle too and the scenes on the Jedi planet (with the hovertank), and all of the Rebels cartoon (so Lothal resistance fighters, Mandalorians, etc.)
There’s been four Star Wars battlefront games, and FFG has been shown to be open to the Expanded Universe, so there’s more there as well.
I’m really hoping though, they pick up the Clone Wars. That’s where the options for ground combat truly lie, I feel.
I painted up my snowtroopers with grey leathers instead of the tan/white. Gives them more of a shocktrooper feel and less specifically snow based.
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Grot 6 wrote: HOW DOES THIS GAME PLAY? Do You Like It? Is It Easy to get into?
I like it quite a bit. Activation control still matters like it does in every alternating activation game, but their are some good systems that still give you options. It plays fast and involved with some interesting decisions that give you a couple points each game where clever choices can really pay off. It's really all about the command, orders and suppression mechanics though. Those things all work together into something greater than the sum of their parts.
At the moment its really easy to get into. If you can find someone to swap half a core set with, you've got the building blocks of a solic army for either side. One of the big drawbacks currently is that there's not a ton of options, but that also means you just kind of play with what's available and don't worry too much about picking the right stuff. Imperial side, I've thus far been pretty happy with everything I own, with the only "bad combo" I've found to be Vader and an AT-ST in the same list. I'm definitely anxious to add E-Webs, Scouts, and Boba Fett to my arsenal to shake up my list archetype options, but there's 2 or 3 distinct styles I've been happy with even under the fairly small set of options.
Sqorgar wrote: My problem with the Fleet Troopers is that they don't match the Endor commando theme of the other figures. The Laser Cannon is from Hoth too (as are Veers, the Snowtroopers, and E-Web team). I know there is only 3 (maybe 4 or 5) movies to choose from, and there's even fewer large battle scenes, but it just feels too hodge podge for me. And what happens after the Endor and Hoth battles have been milked? Will the Empire be running Gamorian Guards, Snow Troopers, Tuskin Raiders, and Royal Guard led by the Emperor versus the Rebel's Ewoks, Bothans, Fleet Troopers, and Pit Droids led by Lando?
I really like Legion's gameplay, but there's something off about its use of Star Wars that I just can't put my finger on. It doesn't seem to come together as a cohesive whole to me, and it isn't just that the units are all willy nilly. Maybe it needs to have just a few named Rebel characters and a few grunts versus a much larger Imperial army or something. It feels weird for the Rebels to have the same number of people on the field.
This has been my issue with this entire concept from the start.
The Galactic Civil War wasn't. It was a partisan action from bands of rebels conducting sabotage, espionage and the (very) occasional pitched fleet or fighter battle. There was no war, in the traditional sense.
The Clone Wars would'a been a better topic. That actually had campaigns, armies, battle lines, and so on.
Sqorgar wrote: And what happens after the Endor and Hoth battles have been milked? Will the Empire be running Gamorian Guards, Snow Troopers, Tuskin Raiders, and Royal Guard led by the Emperor versus the Rebel's Ewoks, Bothans, Fleet Troopers, and Pit Droids led by Lando?
Once as much sensible stuff has been mined from the OT films, Rebels, Rogue One etc as possible, then just start using these:
I generally agree that Clone Wars is better suited to a wargame, but I think the actual scale of the game works pretty well for GCW era as well. The game is way closer to Endor than anything else in scale.
That said, I really, really want to see the Droid army in the game. They've got a great variety of interesting unit options and honestly, I could shoot down Rogers all day and never tire of it.
I didn't mean to start another argument in here. Like I said, the game doesn't feel very Star Wars to me, and I'm having trouble figuring out exactly why. It may just be a bunch of little things that just keep adding up. The weird thing is, the Star Wars Miniature Game (the WEG ones) felt like Star Wars to me, and I'm not sure what the appreciable difference is.
I will say that Clone Wars would fit much better, in that there are generally a bunch of grunts out there (and a wide variety of them seen in the movies) with a few important generals. Clone Wars also had a dozen massive conflicts on a dozen different planets. Through the Clone Wars tv series, we got a lot of named characters, interesting conflicts, and cool scenarios. And I think the Legion system would be perfect for those kinds of battles.
If only Star Wars fans didn't have an unreasonable hatred of the prequels...
Sqorgar wrote: If only Star Wars fans didn't have an unreasonable hatred of the prequels...
Yeah, I am uncertain of my own "hatred" of the prequels.
I think I was 8 years old and went to see the very first Star Wars movie with my dad (Episode 4 now?).
Clone Wars have a very different "feel", a different style within the IP.
I think there are two main items that seemed to define the "original Star Wars":
- Jedi Knight / Dark Forces, X-wing/Tie-Fighter, KOTOR1/2 captures the original "feel" as games, I think it always gave the feeling there was so much insane history and scope to the universe there was always something new/old/forgotten to explore. Slowly understanding just how nuts the Death Star was for the first time was insane.
- I think the overall message seemed to be that a small group of powerful "characters" can change the fate of the universe. Every mission or adventure had the excitement a bit like a heist movie: go into a well defended / difficult environment, do the job, get out, don't get caught.
The "new" Star Wars seems to be very much caught up in the "scope of things", cool looking vistas, exciting racing and different beings/races.
Clone Wars and variants seemed to focus on the scope of the Republic / Empire and the trappings of power/politics and mobilization of military might.
The entertaining heroes seem to get lost in the crowd.
I have seen this done to good effect with Marvel and even with the armies in Black Panther, it still had that close focused appeal (fair comparison with Disney ownership... )
With the updates to X-wing the tabletop game, they already had characters but now a few are more "characterful" since they now acknowledge force powers.
Units need to still have power to them and not be utter chaff to characters but they are the "meat and potatoes", the backdrop or foil for the heroes to tell their story.
It is like all that anger way back when the scene got changed where "Han shot first", he was a shocking anti-hero in some regards, the universe of Star Wars then had some very rough edges.
Just like the look of the "new" Star Wars ships, rounding out all the rough edges can remove much of the "character" from a given element within the Star Wars IP.
Longer than I intended but I am trying to explain/figure out why some element of "old school" Star Wars seems to hold more appeal for some.
Sqorgar wrote: I didn't mean to start another argument in here. Like I said, the game doesn't feel very Star Wars to me, and I'm having trouble figuring out exactly why. It may just be a bunch of little things that just keep adding up. The weird thing is, the Star Wars Miniature Game (the WEG ones) felt like Star Wars to me, and I'm not sure what the appreciable difference is.
An 800 point Imperial army feels very Star Wars to me. An 800 point Rebel army does not. That's probably the best explanation I can give you, and also probably why you see a lot of Imperial players.
LunarSol wrote: An 800 point Imperial army feels very Star Wars to me. An 800 point Rebel army does not. That's probably the best explanation I can give you, and also probably why you see a lot of Imperial players.
That's probably true. When they announced Boba Fett, my first thought was, Boba Fett doesn't fit in this game at all - for the same reason. A loner bounty hunter seems really out of place on the Imperial side, but a Rebel hero like that would feel right.
Would it better if there were fewer Rebel models per unit that were individually stronger? Like a unit of 10 stormtroopers versus a unit of 4 rebels being a roughly even match up? (Especially if the Rebel unit was led by a named character)
Sqorgar wrote: If only Star Wars fans didn't have an unreasonable hatred of the prequels...
Grown men complaining about a childs movie when in most cases these people were children watching Star Wars. If these supposed Star Wars fans stopped watching the prequels with adult eyes and with children eyes when they first saw Star Wars, if they were a kid, then they would enjoy the prequels for what they were. Sadly these people will never enjoy the prequels for what they were and because of them we ended up with The Last Jedi.
As for Darth Vader and Luke being needed to play, that sucks, I want to play a Star Wars game not just a heros game over and over again. It would be nice to play the grunts, like what we saw in Rouge One.
Sqorgar wrote:
If only Star Wars fans didn't have an unreasonable hatred of the prequels...
Grown men complaining about a childs movie when in most cases these people were children watching Star Wars. If these supposed Star Wars fans stopped watching the prequels with adult eyes and with children eyes when they first saw Star Wars, if they were a kid, then they would enjoy the prequels for what they were. Sadly these people will never enjoy the prequels for what they were and because of them we ended up with The Last Jedi.
Sounds like somebody needs to watch The Last Jedi with a child's eyes.
Anyway, I would be far more interested in minis from Rogue One and Solo. I would love some miniatures of Enfys Nest, L3, K2, Chirrut and...gun guy.
I like seeing that basic troop types for storm troopers and the Fleet. Maybe bring in the other bounty hunters or some alien troops and robot sets, next, ala each of the different planet battlespaces.
Probably because there's no such thing as a Rebel "army". They were never an armed force fighting the Empire in open combat. That's just not how the GCW went.
As for Darth Vader and Luke being needed to play, that sucks, I want to play a Star Wars game not just a heros game over and over again. It would be nice to play the grunts, like what we saw in Rouge One.
That's basically what you get if you make Veers your commander instead of Vader. He's technically a "special character" but only because Star Wars fans need names for every single background character. In terms of the game, he's essentially a generic Imperial officer.
Probably because there's no such thing as a Rebel "army". They were never an armed force fighting the Empire in open combat. That's just not how the GCW went.
It's what makes this game so disjointed.
well from the new canon you have stuff like Twilight company that focuses on a alliance military unit, there is a central alliance military and they were mostly used to supplement local forces
One possible way they could go would be what the game Star Wars: Rebellion did with alien regiments for the Rebels. You eventually got Sullustan who weren't good at assault or defense but provided great protection against infiltrators, Mon Calamari who were good at defense but not good at assault, and then Wookies (guess what they were good at).. It makes sense that you'd get alien units from worlds that really threw in with the Rebels and it would kinda be better than the difference in styles between commandos, Hoth, and fleet troops.
As for Darth Vader and Luke being needed to play, that sucks, I want to play a Star Wars game not just a heros game over and over again. It would be nice to play the grunts, like what we saw in Rouge One.
That's basically what you get if you make Veers your commander instead of Vader. He's technically a "special character" but only because Star Wars fans need names for every single background character. In terms of the game, he's essentially a generic Imperial officer.
He was named in the movie! Vader directly addresses him at a few points and he has some speaking roles
But yes, we will soon have two commanders (And an Special Operative.. No clue how they'll work primarily yet) with Vader, Veers, and Fett (Being the SO), with Luke, Leia, and Han..
In general so far, we have Force User Melee character, Commander who can lead units and has Leadership slots, and gun shooting damage dealer with tricks.
IMPERIALS
- Generic officer
- Imperial Army troops (aka Death Star trooper)
- Director Krenick
- Death Troopers
- Dengar
- Royal Guard
- Troop transport (the old 70's toy/revised for Rebels)
- Imperial Hovertank
- Stormtrooper on Dewback
REBELS
- General Cracken
- General Reikeen
- Alien Allies (Wookies, Sullustans, Rodians, Rylothians, etc.)
- modified XP-34/XP-38 support speeder (i.e., Luke's landspeeder with an E-Web bolted on the back)
SEPERATISTS
- Battle Droid
- Commander Battle Droid
- Super Battle Droid
- Super Tactical Battle Droid
- Droideka
- Droid Armored Assault Tank
- General Grevious
- Dwarf Spider Drones
- Hellfire Droid Tank
I'm actually hoping we won't see many Jedi characters at all - or at best, that you can only put one into a force at a time. They're friggen' superheroes, and it's not fun when it takes your entire army to take out one. I think that's a big failing that the WotC miniature game fell into.
That imperial transport that people have to sort of stand on the outside of held in by a flap is really daft looking, imo. It's clear as day that that's a toy design, not something built to be functional.
There's not a ton of room for jedi characters in this game as it's GCW focussed. If you're wishlisting clone wars units though, it would be very unusual not to include jedi characters - almost every famous mainstream battle had jedi commanders involved. They don't all have to be super badasses.
I have less than zero interest in FFG's Legion game...however...I'm very close to picking up many boxes simply to have a stash of Star Wars figures. I don't understand why people think they're stuck playing Star Wars Legion - when there are loads of fantastic skirmish sci-fi rules sets out there ---- or you can create your own.
This is the first (and likely last for the foreseeable future) chance to buy a fairly consistent current line of Star Wars figures in a common gaming scale (or common enough...). If I was a bit better off financially right now I'd buy 2-3 boxes of each --- even if I just stashed them in a closet for 10-15 years, lol.
Elbows wrote: I don't understand why people think they're stuck playing Star Wars Legion - when there are loads of fantastic skirmish sci-fi rules sets out there ---- or you can create your own.
Cause the Legion rules themselves are pretty good on their own and aren't like.... an additional cost or anything like that?
No, but people are acting as if FFG is going to lose the license and suddenly they'll have nothing to do with a large assortment of Star Wars miniatures. Sure the line isn't fleshed out right now, but there is a hell of a solid start.
Elbows wrote: No, but people are acting as if FFG is going to lose the license and suddenly they'll have nothing to do with a large assortment of Star Wars miniatures. Sure the line isn't fleshed out right now, but there is a hell of a solid start.
I think for some (or at least for me) part of the hesitation is the doubt as to just how fleshed out it is likely to get before being inevitably canned, as happens to all licensed games sooner or later. The WotC Star Wars game was around for 6 years and 17 expansions (not counting Starship Battles, which was effectively a separate game), and still had some fairly large holes in the range when it was canned.
Elbows wrote: No, but people are acting as if FFG is going to lose the license and suddenly they'll have nothing to do with a large assortment of Star Wars miniatures. Sure the line isn't fleshed out right now, but there is a hell of a solid start.
It's not that the models will disappear, it's that continuing in the game will become much more difficult. If you have an army in progress when the game goes OOP you'll be stuck paying inflated prices for everything to finish it, and the only alternative is to massively over-invest up front and hope that you buy so much stuff that you never have any gaps to fill. And once the game goes OOP the supply of new players ends because getting into it as a newbie becomes far more difficult. Instead of buying stuff off the shelf at the store you're having to tell newbies to hunt for it on ebay and hope they can get a decent deal. Likewise for whatever substitute rules you try to use instead of Legion's rules, now you have models that are OOP and hard to get on top of trying to convince people to use some obscure rules that some random person made instead of just playing 40k. Eventually, as the current players inevitably drop out, you'll be left with a bunch of models collecting dust on your display shelf and nobody to use them with.
Now, this is a potential problem for any game, but it's a lot more likely with a licensed IP than with a publisher's own IP. 40k isn't going anywhere in the foreseeable future, but can you confidently say the same thing about Star Wars games given the history of licensed Star Wars games that suddenly ended despite being a financial success? By investing in Legion you're taking a significant gamble on FFG keeping the license long enough for you to get everything you want out of your purchases.
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Elbows wrote: I don't understand why people think they're stuck playing Star Wars Legion - when there are loads of fantastic skirmish sci-fi rules sets out there ---- or you can create your own.
Because all of those obscure rules that nobody uses aren't worth anything unless you can convince people to play with them instead of just playing 40k/MTG/whatever. And rules are the easy part. If FFG drops Legion there are plenty of pdf copies of the rules. TBH you'd be a lot more likely to get people to keep playing Legion after support is dropped, as long as you can find a way to get enough OOP models. But if you're investing in a game in the desperate hope that someone will join you in playing a random game with a player base you can count on one hand, well, I guess it's your money to throw away.
Probably because there's no such thing as a Rebel "army". They were never an armed force fighting the Empire in open combat. That's just not how the GCW went.
It's what makes this game so disjointed.
What is a standard game size for Legion? I've heard that two core sets is enough for a standard points level; at that level, you've got about enough Rebels to re-fight the Endor base assault, the boarding action on the Tantive IV or a section of the tunnel fighting on Hoth. a 28mm game isn't going to be "too big" for the Rebellion era until they do it in 15 or 10mm, or start introducing huge vehicles like 40k does.
Sqorgar wrote: My problem with the Fleet Troopers is that they don't match the Endor commando theme of the other figures. The Laser Cannon is from Hoth too (as are Veers, the Snowtroopers, and E-Web team). I know there is only 3 (maybe 4 or 5) movies to choose from, and there's even fewer large battle scenes, but it just feels too hodge podge for me. And what happens after the Endor and Hoth battles have been milked? Will the Empire be running Gamorian Guards, Snow Troopers, Tuskin Raiders, and Royal Guard led by the Emperor versus the Rebel's Ewoks, Bothans, Fleet Troopers, and Pit Droids led by Lando?
I really like Legion's gameplay, but there's something off about its use of Star Wars that I just can't put my finger on. It doesn't seem to come together as a cohesive whole to me, and it isn't just that the units are all willy nilly. Maybe it needs to have just a few named Rebel characters and a few grunts versus a much larger Imperial army or something. It feels weird for the Rebels to have the same number of people on the field.
This has been my issue with this entire concept from the start.
The Galactic Civil War wasn't. It was a partisan action from bands of rebels conducting sabotage, espionage and the (very) occasional pitched fleet or fighter battle. There was no war, in the traditional sense.
The Clone Wars would'a been a better topic. That actually had campaigns, armies, battle lines, and so on.
Hmm yes and no.
The "rebels" had distinctive uniforms, units were armed with their own make of guns, their had their own ship and fighter classes.
I guess it could be the rich/nobility (Star Wars has a weird system of government) creating their own regiments etc - they were very well equipped for "rebels" / partisans who usually rely on their enemy for equipment, uniforms or a third party to supply them. If it was the former - the rebels would have been using TIE's and Stormtrooper blasters /armour.
"Rebellions" are usually the extension of the foreign policy of an unfriendly nation and seldom if ever succeed without them.
Elbows wrote: I don't understand why people think they're stuck playing Star Wars Legion - when there are loads of fantastic skirmish sci-fi rules sets out there ---- or you can create your own.
Because all of those obscure rules that nobody uses aren't worth anything unless you can convince people to play with them instead of just playing 40k/MTG/whatever. And rules are the easy part. If FFG drops Legion there are plenty of pdf copies of the rules. TBH you'd be a lot more likely to get people to keep playing Legion after support is dropped, as long as you can find a way to get enough OOP models. But if you're investing in a game in the desperate hope that someone will join you in playing a random game with a player base you can count on one hand, well, I guess it's your money to throw away.
I hate this mentality to wargaming. Unless you're doing large tournaments it's not really that hard to get other gamers into alternate systems. If all your gaming is done down at your local FLGS because they have open play tuesdays where everybody just shows up with their 800 point all-comers lists for random gaming and tournament practice, that's going to be hard to push an alternate rules set. But if you're playing with mostly the same people every time, especially if it's the same group of people that play multiple games, then it's fairly easy to pull out a ruleset and get everyone on board so long as you're willing to show them how to play and walk them through a game. Some of these alternate rules are free or cheap PDFS and while some of very basic and amateurish, some are pretty darned fantastic. The actual FFG rules are fine, but they aren't so good that I wouldn't rather find a better platoon skirmish system. I've already gotten plenty of people to play Star Wars using Pulp Alley for small character skirmish using WotC and IA figs since it wrks way better than the actual WotC D20 system or the Imperial Assault skirmish rules.
Especially important because there's a LOT of people losing interest in the actual game locally since the Imperials are believed to be so much better in the game
What is all this talk of "not getting the game because it will not last". FFG did 40K and Fantasy products and people bought them with no problem.
We buy games every day and we do not know if they will last or not. People who buy Kings of War or Dreadball or Dropzone Commander etc, buy the games because they are interesting, not that they will not be here in 3 or 4 years so why start.
You buy because you want NOW not later. I am really not understanding people not getting Star Wars Legion because it will not be supported. X-wing should show that this will not go anytime soon.
I can understand, already invested in too many games, or can't afford a new system or just don't like the system or minis but to say "it will not be supported in two years from now" just boggles me. After all that is two years you could have been enjoying the game and if not more if it keeps getting supported.
Davor wrote: What is all this talk of "not getting the game because it will not last". FFG did 40K and Fantasy products and people bought them with no problem.
We buy games every day and we do not know if they will last or not. People who buy Kings of War or Dreadball or Dropzone Commander etc, buy the games because they are interesting, not that they will not be here in 3 or 4 years so why start.
You buy because you want NOW not later. I am really not understanding people not getting Star Wars Legion because it will not be supported. X-wing should show that this will not go anytime soon.
I can understand, already invested in too many games, or can't afford a new system or just don't like the system or minis but to say "it will not be supported in two years from now" just boggles me. After all that is two years you could have been enjoying the game and if not more if it keeps getting supported.
The problem, at least for me, is that FFG has lost a lot of games in the past few years. Some, of their own choice, like BattleLore 2E, Runebound 3E, Star Wars LCG, and so on. And some, not of their choice, like everything GW and Netrunner. As a player of Runewars, I kind of live in constant fear that FFG will drop it (it's been like 8 months since the last release - they've announced a few new heroes, but year two is still looking bleak). Basically, FFG has killed multiple games and game systems that I greatly enjoy - literally some of my favorite games ever - and I just can't get over that worry.
I like Legion's gameplay. It feels a little off as a Star Wars game, but I think that after a year of releases, maybe, FFG could sort that out a bit better. The now dead LCG also didn't feel like Star Wars, but Legion isn't fundamentally flawed like the LCG was. They can fix it. They seem to be going for parity between rebels and imperials, and like Runewars, it'll probably only be after the basic armies are complete that they will start to branch out into more unique feeling armies. They game could also use another army or two (or at least subfactions/theme lists like snowtroopers and sandtroopers).
I guess what I'm saying is that I don't want NOW Legion (with all of 3 troop choices). I want 2 YEARS FROM NOW Legion (and I want that version of Legion to feel more Star Wars-y). I know, I know. I should just wait two years, but I'm okay being an early adopter (in fact, I love it). I love watching a game grow over time. I just don't think FFG is doing enough to communicate what 2 YEARS FROM NOW Legion will look like (or whether it will be supported still)
I don't think FFG's approach to miniature games works very well. They approach it too much like a board game. Their other lifestyle games (like the LCGs) have a sort of standardized release schedule with predictable releases that makes the secrecy tolerable. You know what the Arkham Horror LCG will look like 2 years from now. You'll have a couple more cycles of a deluxe box plus 6 mythos packs. You'll get X number of adventures with Y number of player cards spread predictably across the standard character types. There's not going to be anything really game changing happening. But Legion is getting an operative with Boba Fett. What the hell does that mean for future releases? That came out of nowhere.
Here's another example. Runewars and X-Wing 2.0 no longer use small cards for upgrades - will this change come to Legion too? With Runewars, it was an unannounced change. They don't even list what types of card sleeves the new expansions use on their shop, like they do for every other product they sell. I'm sure they had a good reason for this jarring change, but they not only haven't communicated why they made this change, they didn't even communicate that this change was being made at all. It kind of looks like they were hiding it. If FFG were to lose the Star Wars license, we wouldn't know until about 3 months before everything disappeared forever - just like the last two times FFG lost a license.
This is getting long, but Legion is a good game that I like a lot. It isn't there yet, and I guess my main worry is that it won't ever get there. The potential I'd like to see from it is entirely dependent on how FFG grows the game, and whether they continue to support it - two things which FFG has traditionally been terrible at, and actively seems to be getting worse at.
Davor wrote: What is all this talk of "not getting the game because it will not last". FFG did 40K and Fantasy products and people bought them with no problem.
It's just baseless speculation and fearmongering because FFG lost a completely unrelated license for a completely unrelated game licensed from a completely unrelated company. There has been ZERO evidence that ANY of FFG's Star Wars licenses are in jeopardy of going away and every indication that they're going pretty strong. FFG's other games and licenses are FFG's other games and licenses, their Star Wars stuff isn't going anywhere anytime in the forseeable fututre.
Now, a few of us were discussing the merit of using alternate rulesets because of issues with the official rules, but that's a very different discussion from the doomsayers
I dunno. As a Star Wars Armada player Im getting pretty worried, myself. Super glad I am in a situation where I need to collect both sides, so at least I have a playable game regardless of what FFG does.
Kalamadea wrote: It's just baseless speculation and fearmongering because FFG lost a completely unrelated license for a completely unrelated game licensed from a completely unrelated company.
Well, not completely baseless. We know FFG announced they had the SW license in Aug 2011, and they renewed it in Mar 2015, which means they have a 5 year contract (which will be up in 2020). Asmodee announced that it would acquire FFG just a few months earlier in Nov 2014, so it probably didn't factor much into FFG's deal with LucasFilm/Disney. However, FFG's split from GW was announce in Sept 2016, and they announced they lost Netrunner just two weeks ago (Jun 2018).
Basically, since the Asmodee merger, they've lost two high profile licenses and 2020 will be the first time that the Star Wars license will potentially be renewed under megacorp Asmodee. If there's competition for the license, like CMON wants a shot at the big time or WizKids (has a line of pre-primed miniatures that is doing well, also owned by NECA, which makes collectible movie figurines - notably lacking Star Wars) goes after it or Disney buys Hasbro or somebody buys Asmodee (currently up for sale), it could put SW's future at FFG in jeapordy. And that's assuming that Disney's abysmal handling of the franchise doesn't completely run it into the ground, causing sales of related merchandise to plummet. Two more years is two more Disney Star Wars movies (yuck).
There has been ZERO evidence that ANY of FFG's Star Wars licenses are in jeopardy of going away and every indication that they're going pretty strong. FFG's other games and licenses are FFG's other games and licenses, their Star Wars stuff isn't going anywhere anytime in the forseeable fututre.
We've already lost one SW game (the LCG). Imperial Assault and Armada are basically on life support. X-Wing is about to see a new edition (edition changes always lose players, and X-Wing may have already reached a saturation point where everyone who might play it already has). Destiny is doing well though.
I'm not saying doom WILL happen. Every game has risks. I just don't think the Star Wars license is as healthy as everyone seems to assume. My main complaint is that FFG is secretive and uncommunicative, and given how so, so many other of their games have gone, it makes me really uneasy about Legion's future. I have no fears about smaller companies, like Steamforged or Corvus Belli, and I felt really good even about Shadespire and Necromunda, despite GW's spotty history with specialist games - it's specifically a FFG issue. It's what they've done and what they do that makes me worry.
For Net Runner though, FFG did pick up L5R and I think that, at one point at least, was notable competition for MtG. Then again, my only interaction with L5R was through the RPG.
Skaorn wrote: For Net Runner though, FFG did pick up L5R and I think that, at one point at least, was notable competition for MtG. Then again, my only interaction with L5R was through the RPG.
Plus L5R is not a license. FFG bought the IP wholesale.
Davor wrote: What is all this talk of "not getting the game because it will not last". FFG did 40K and Fantasy products and people bought them with no problem.
We buy games every day and we do not know if they will last or not. People who buy Kings of War or Dreadball or Dropzone Commander etc, buy the games because they are interesting, not that they will not be here in 3 or 4 years so why start.
You buy because you want NOW not later. I am really not understanding people not getting Star Wars Legion because it will not be supported. X-wing should show that this will not go anytime soon.
I can understand, already invested in too many games, or can't afford a new system or just don't like the system or minis but to say "it will not be supported in two years from now" just boggles me. After all that is two years you could have been enjoying the game and if not more if it keeps getting supported.
The problem, at least for me, is that FFG has lost a lot of games in the past few years. Some, of their own choice, like BattleLore 2E, Runebound 3E, Star Wars LCG, and so on. And some, not of their choice, like everything GW and Netrunner. As a player of Runewars, I kind of live in constant fear that FFG will drop it (it's been like 8 months since the last release - they've announced a few new heroes, but year two is still looking bleak). Basically, FFG has killed multiple games and game systems that I greatly enjoy - literally some of my favorite games ever - and I just can't get over that worry.
I like Legion's gameplay. It feels a little off as a Star Wars game, but I think that after a year of releases, maybe, FFG could sort that out a bit better. The now dead LCG also didn't feel like Star Wars, but Legion isn't fundamentally flawed like the LCG was. They can fix it. They seem to be going for parity between rebels and imperials, and like Runewars, it'll probably only be after the basic armies are complete that they will start to branch out into more unique feeling armies. They game could also use another army or two (or at least subfactions/theme lists like snowtroopers and sandtroopers).
I guess what I'm saying is that I don't want NOW Legion (with all of 3 troop choices). I want 2 YEARS FROM NOW Legion (and I want that version of Legion to feel more Star Wars-y). I know, I know. I should just wait two years, but I'm okay being an early adopter (in fact, I love it). I love watching a game grow over time. I just don't think FFG is doing enough to communicate what 2 YEARS FROM NOW Legion will look like (or whether it will be supported still)
I don't think FFG's approach to miniature games works very well. They approach it too much like a board game. Their other lifestyle games (like the LCGs) have a sort of standardized release schedule with predictable releases that makes the secrecy tolerable. You know what the Arkham Horror LCG will look like 2 years from now. You'll have a couple more cycles of a deluxe box plus 6 mythos packs. You'll get X number of adventures with Y number of player cards spread predictably across the standard character types. There's not going to be anything really game changing happening. But Legion is getting an operative with Boba Fett. What the hell does that mean for future releases? That came out of nowhere.
Here's another example. Runewars and X-Wing 2.0 no longer use small cards for upgrades - will this change come to Legion too? With Runewars, it was an unannounced change. They don't even list what types of card sleeves the new expansions use on their shop, like they do for every other product they sell. I'm sure they had a good reason for this jarring change, but they not only haven't communicated why they made this change, they didn't even communicate that this change was being made at all. It kind of looks like they were hiding it. If FFG were to lose the Star Wars license, we wouldn't know until about 3 months before everything disappeared forever - just like the last two times FFG lost a license.
This is getting long, but Legion is a good game that I like a lot. It isn't there yet, and I guess my main worry is that it won't ever get there. The potential I'd like to see from it is entirely dependent on how FFG grows the game, and whether they continue to support it - two things which FFG has traditionally been terrible at, and actively seems to be getting worse at.
Thank you very much for that. I can understand where you are coming from now. I guess for me I am too use to the 2-5 years of cycle change from GW that I really don't look that far ahead anymore.
After giving it some thought, take away real life issues for me, and depression, another reason why I don't play much anymore is becuase of this change. Some peolpe in my group are good, others are not. The others are the reason why I don't play because they are WYSIWYG and will not change. So if the game changes it's hard to play with some people. So better not even bother. I have forgotten about why I did this because of my depression keeping me from playing right now. After reading your post you have reminded me why I never went all in years ago with GW. I tried to go in now, but depression is keeping me away.
While I understand now where you are coming from, I have this little story. There is a game called Fallout 3. I thought I would save money and wait for a sale. I waited over 9 months before paying full price for the game because it never went on sale. So I wasted 9 months of playing an awesome game in my opinion trying to save money. While this is not about saving money, I guess my story is, not knowing what will happen means we are missing the "now" part of playing a great game.
I don't know why I said that, it seemed to fit. I guess seeing how my fear and depression keeps me from buying things or playing, and enjoying something I want to do, I just hate to see someone miss out on something they want.
FWIW, I used to be leery of buying into new games because I generally didn't get to painting and playing things I bought for a good year. I've recently buckled down and focused on reducing my backlog so that something new and exciting can get immediate attention. Legion is actually one of the first games where I've really benefited from this; having it fully painted shortly after release and getting new releases done as they come out. It's probably the most "in the now" I've experienced in a game (with the exception of FFG's extremely early product announcements) and overall its been far more enjoyable because of it and helped motivate me to get other games to a place where I don't have a real painting backlog to worry about.
Probably because there's no such thing as a Rebel "army". They were never an armed force fighting the Empire in open combat. That's just not how the GCW went.
It's what makes this game so disjointed.
I mean, OK, but that's just wrong. They were certainly a less organised, less well supplied armed force and frequently used guerilla and insurgency tactics, and many of the units that made up their "army" were former resistance cells with a "flexible" relationship with Alliance High Command, but they were an armed force and they did engage the Empire in open battle on multiple occasions. I mean they do it twice(Scarif & Hoth) even if you insist on sticking to the movies, which isn't how things work any more anyway. The protagonists of the (canon)Battlefront novel are the 61st Mobile Infantry Company, so you'd assume there are at least 60 others and rationally far, far more because otherwise it wouldn't have been a Galactic Civil War at all. I mean, the New Republic formed in the immediate aftermath of Endor didn't just pull a complete, functional, organised army out of their backside to immediately begin fighting multiple planetary-scale liberation efforts.
Easy E wrote: Does anyone know if they will make a E-web (or radar cannon) for regular Stormies and Rebs or are they going to be "Hoth Style" only?
I doubt they will for a while, if at all. The Rebel crew fit fine in any force with the right paintjob, maybe a head swap, and you can swap out the guy not using the weapon itself for any other fig. The E-web will get regular Stormtrooper crew from one of the Shapeways 3rd party folk long before FFG bother doing it most likely.
You could also probably kitbash with a Stormtrooper kit. The 5 regular trooper and conveniently kneeling HH missile launcher troopers aren't particularly great picks in a list anyway. Take those two out of the unit and put them on the E-Web instead.
Alternate paint schemes will do the job otherwise. I posted mine a page back and find the snowtroopers still look good despite my wasteland basing.
Doesn't sound like they will be making them in "normal troopers." But U can convert and green stuff a standard trooper without any problems. I don't think it will be that hard. However, I see your point. Perhaps they can do a small scale release down the line for the figures.
AegisGrimm wrote: Ive seen a couple instances of painting Snowtroopers as Galactic Marines (I think?). Which lessens their odd feeling of being on non-snow terrain.
That's not really a thing any more, "snowtroopers" I mean. They've not been explicitly renamed yet or anything, but in nuCanon they seem to be getting pushed towards a more generic "hostile environment assault trooper", they show up places like post-Tarkinated Jedha. Also, after looking into it having initially planned to do that myself, I'm not sure the Imperial Galactic Marines would still be using Clone Wars-era markings and colours, more likely they'd be in the same basic white gear as other units like Blizzard Force(the unit seen in ESB).
Is this from the comics or novels? I'd always assumed the Stormtroopers in ESB were just the same troopers we see later on Bespin, but in different gear. Likewise with the ones on Tatooine at the beginning of ANH.
AndrewGPaul wrote: Is this from the comics or novels? I'd always assumed the Stormtroopers in ESB were just the same troopers we see later on Bespin, but in different gear. Likewise with the ones on Tatooine at the beginning of ANH.
The appearance on Jedha is from a nuCanon comic series, the identity of the ESB troopers specifically being a specialist unit named Blizzard Force not usually part of Vader's Death Squadron contingent was originally from the ESB novelisation and has been featured in multiple nuCanon reference books now so is pretty solidly canon.
The ANH troopers would have been a contingent from aboard the Devastator which pursued the Tantive IV from Scarif, possibly with some troopers from the Mos Eisley garrison(though I suspect a Hutt-controlled backwater like Tatooine would have had Imperial Army rather than Stormtrooper garrison forces), while the troopers on Bespin might have been the same ones from Tatooine there's no way to know since Death Squadron had six Star Destroyers each of which can carry thousands of Stormtroopers, plus the Executor.
Let me see if I can find my headcanon post from facebook trying to reconcile all this nonsense:
The way I look at it is this(and obviously this is mostly "headCanon", all we know for sure is units that look like what we knew as "snowtroopers" now show up in places that aren't even slightly snowy) - "hostile environment troopers" are an expeditionary unit, their job is to assault and invade, anytime, anywhere, no matter the conditions and circumstances, so they have "universal" reinforced gear with climate control, enhanced breather filters and an option to run sealed for limited periods, advanced layers in the coverings and coats etc - essentially NBC battle-gear that can handle just about anything with a couple of quick tweaks to the settings. Within that overall category, there are specialist units like Blizzard Force(the ESB Hoth battle troopers) who are renowned for their expertise in fighting in specific hostile biomes and will be deployed to those whenever possible.
Sandtroopers, Magmatroopers, Swamptroopers etc etc, those are all just regular Stormtroopers with gear modified for one specific extreme biome and maybe some additional training or prior experience. They'd usually be deployed as garrison forces and so wouldn't need expensive multi-biome armour, just some mods to their mass-produced cheapie service gear. I imagine there are probably limited stocks of the most commonly required modifications aboard ships like Star Destroyers so as to enable temporary deployments of their regular troopers either in support of an HEV unit or where such a unit was unavailable for whatever reason(like Vader's rapid pursuit of Leia to Tatooine).
I own a game store and have similar concerns about the longevity of this game. At the Gama Trade Show I voiced those concerns to Andre Kieran, the guy who is now in charge of the line. Andre used to run Games Workshop US sales, so he unlike most of FFG knows how to run and expand miniatures lines. He assured me that it would have regular releases, none of this waiting 8 months for a release. We'll have to wait till the end of the year and assess, but I am concerned. It seems that they are sticking to just what was in the first 3 original movies. If they don't use other sources that will produce a lopsided game where the Empire has ATAT's and the rebels can't stand up to them in a straight fight. It wasn't until the second trilogy that we saw any kinds of other armored vehicles. Unless they make asymmetric warfare rules where rebels can set giant log traps to squish ATAT's, it could be bad for the game.
Smellingsalts wrote: I own a game store and have similar concerns about the longevity of this game. At the Gama Trade Show I voiced those concerns to Andre Kieran, the guy who is now in charge of the line. Andre used to run Games Workshop US sales, so he unlike most of FFG knows how to run and expand miniatures lines. He assured me that it would have regular releases, none of this waiting 8 months for a release. We'll have to wait till the end of the year and assess, but I am concerned. It seems that they are sticking to just what was in the first 3 original movies. If they don't use other sources that will produce a lopsided game where the Empire has ATAT's and the rebels can't stand up to them in a straight fight. It wasn't until the second trilogy that we saw any kinds of other armored vehicles. Unless they make asymmetric warfare rules where rebels can set giant log traps to squish ATAT's, it could be bad for the game.
The sad part is that Rebel wise, they could do quite a bit just with the idea of 'looted' gear. Things like the AT-RT, the gravtank from Rogue One--things leftover from the Clone Wars and on the backwater planets tended to fall into Rebel hands.
Smellingsalts wrote: I own a game store and have similar concerns about the longevity of this game. At the Gama Trade Show I voiced those concerns to Andre Kieran, the guy who is now in charge of the line. Andre used to run Games Workshop US sales, so he unlike most of FFG knows how to run and expand miniatures lines. He assured me that it would have regular releases, none of this waiting 8 months for a release. We'll have to wait till the end of the year and assess, but I am concerned. It seems that they are sticking to just what was in the first 3 original movies. If they don't use other sources that will produce a lopsided game where the Empire has ATAT's and the rebels can't stand up to them in a straight fight. It wasn't until the second trilogy that we saw any kinds of other armored vehicles. Unless they make asymmetric warfare rules where rebels can set giant log traps to squish ATAT's, it could be bad for the game.
Add Chewie and some other unit on the Rebel side and the game is essentially at that point about when Wave 3 released for X-Wing where the original vision of recreating the OT is largely available. Much like X-Wing, if what you want is a box of Star Wars, that will also likely be your stopping point and also much like X-Wing, the next set of releases will likely start showing us which ways they'll look to expand going forward.
The royal guard look very heroically scaled, more so than the other Legion minis. Like, Oathmark scaled. Is this a change in artistic direction or a new sculptor or what?
I like the Emperor model, but I can't fathom why I'd ever put the freaking Emperor on the table for a minor skirmish over some supply crates and vapourators.
Hopefully once they get all the OT "big names" out of the way even though most of them make no sense at Legion's scale of conflict they can move on to some more practical commanders even if they still have to pretend they're totes super-duper big deals.
Yodhrin wrote: I like the Emperor model, but I can't fathom why I'd ever put the freaking Emperor on the table for a minor skirmish over some supply crates and vapourators.
Hopefully once they get all the OT "big names" out of the way even though most of them make no sense at Legion's scale of conflict they can move on to some more practical commanders even if they still have to pretend they're totes super-duper big deals.
Given that they've been trying to keep to similar but opposite. I can imagine that they'll be showing off Yoda soon as Palpy's since he's the closest thing to palpatines equal in the OT.
Wait, I changed my mind. I bet Rebels get Chewy. Currently Imperials got Boba, a solo, while Rebels got Han, a commander. I bet we see Imperials with the Emperor there to equalize their commander count, while Rebels get Chewy to give them a solo and one that pairs with Han.
AduroT wrote: Wait, I changed my mind. I bet Rebels get Chewy. Currently Imperials got Boba, a solo, while Rebels got Han, a commander. I bet we see Imperials with the Emperor there to equalize their commander count, while Rebels get Chewy to give them a solo and one that pairs with Han.
Yup. Chewie in the Operative spot rounds things out for them nicely. Curious what unit will go along with it. Wookie guard seems obvious enough, though I'm curious if they'll go crazy and make something like an R2-D2/C-3PO 2 man special forces unit.
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Easy E wrote: The Emperor! They have run out of ideas for Legion all ready?
Nah, its just the way Star Wars games get made. This is probably the nearly the end of the "expansions" that were designed before the game was even announced; creating a core experience largely built around letting people play with classic OT characters. Now that they've got the OT characters out of the way, we'll probably start seeing more EU expansions; and announcements of growing the game in different ways. It's similar to how X-Wing worked, with the first year (up to Wave 3) basically getting the OT ships in our hands, the second year fleshing that out with EU stuff, and the third year introducing new factions. You see this elsewhere in things like the Battlefront games and even there, the Emperor always gets brought in to round out the cast of playable Imperial characters beyond Vader and Boba.
I think I'm out. It's not that I dislike the gameplay (far from it, I like it very much), but it just feels like a Warcraft 2 Star Wars mod. It feels like a Star Wars skin wrapped around a different game. You've got the Emperor, Imperial Guards, Boba Fett, and Snowtroopers fighting against Jedi Luke, Fleet Troopers, and Endor rebels. At not point in any of the Star Wars movies did this scenario happen, nor could it have happened. There's not even a fantasy "What if" scenario in which such a thing was possible, since these game pieces fundamentally are at odds with their function in the Star Wars universe.
In complete honesty, if they had made Legion about the prequels, it would all fit together beautifully, and be a stellar example of how to build a Star Wars IP miniature game. Because of the prequels, the Clone Wars, and even Rebels, almost every character was on a battlefield at one point or another, and large epic battles were commonplace - but they chose to make it about characters that literally would never and could never be seen together on a battlefield. Maybe they'll announce some Clone Wars factions at Gen Con...
The weird thing is, I really loved the Star Wars CCG from Decipher, and you could do basically the same random things there. There was once a battle between Grand Moff Tarkin and Aunt Beru in the Death Star trash compactor that was fairly epic. I can't quite put my finger on why this is, but I think that it might be because the CCG was character based, rather than army based.
AduroT wrote: Currently Imperials got Boba, a solo, while Rebels got Han, a commander.
Han is already a Solo
Sqorgar wrote: I think I'm out. It's not that I dislike the gameplay (far from it, I like it very much), but it just feels like a Warcraft 2 Star Wars mod. It feels like a Star Wars skin wrapped around a different game. At not point in any of the Star Wars movies did this scenario happen, nor could it have happened. There's not even a fantasy "What if" scenario in which such a thing was possible, since these game pieces fundamentally are at odds with their function in the Star Wars universe.
That was always going to be the case, just as it's always been the case with Star Wars minis games. The WotC game was the worst offender for this, but even the old WEG miniatures game suffered from stuffing every single on-screen and early-EU figure into the game whether it made sense or not, you kinda just need to roll with it and play out the impossible What-Ifs. There's nothing stopping you from playing "historical-only" scenarios and units any more than replaying "historical" battles in 40K, you just need to have a regular group that is on the same page. If you play open nights at the FLGS, or in open tournaments then yeah, gotta deal with it or move on to other games.
One thing this game has over the WEG game is there is so much more on-screen Canon to pull from. We've got the OT, prequels, new trilogy, Clone Wars, Rebels, RogueOne and Solo without delving into any of the novels, games, or comics which are supposedly sharing the same level of Canon as the on-screen things. The AT-RT is already an Old-Republic unit from the prequels that was never in the OT, so clearly FFG is pulling from at least the prequels/Clone Wars from the very beginning, and they correctly called the T-47 an airspeeder not a snowspeeder, so they know the EU that they're pulling from. Game is still new and at least locally is pretty popular, hopefully it stays popular enough to get at least as complete a line as the WEG miniatures
I think the WEG version was more open to heroes and individual models on the field, while Legion is much more based around units. Luke, Leia, and Han are all commanders, which you can only have two of, and thus can not appear in a battle together. I think a huge part of Legion's problem is that they are going for exact parity in types and numbers between the sides.
I actually grabbed my WEG book and found a section in it that I enjoyed so much, I bothered to transcribe it here.
Star Wars Miniature Battles, page 49 wrote:
Force Mixes: No One Said War Was Fair...
There are few times in history when absolutely equal forces have met on the battlefield. Typically, somebody is stronger than somebody else, or somebody has better weapons, or better-trained men. The stronger party is usually (but not always) the attacker, the weaker the defender.
Star Wars Miniatures Battles will provide an interesting game between unequal forces -- in fact, you might say that this is the standard combat situation in which the inhabitants of the "galaxy far, far away" find themselves: the Rebels rarely have parity of numbers and weapons with the Imperials. But what they lack in these areas, they make up in the quality of their men, and the brilliance and courage of the heroes who accompany them. You can recreate these kind of situations by specifying how the players can spend their squad generation points. (When you do so, tell each player in private: it's more fun when they don't know what they are going to face.)
"Imperial player: you have 1500 points. You can spend up to 300 points on heroes; the rest on your squads. Your squads can be average or veteran; they can have whatever weaponry you want. Go to it."
"Rebel players: you have 1500 points. You can spend up to 600 points on heroes; the rest on your squads. Your squads must be veran or elite. You can have up to three specialized weapons, 30 grenades, no thermal detonators and no vehicles. Got to it."
The game has been out for what less then 4 months. Chewy and Hoth troopers are most likely next to come out for rebs. I don’t get what people freaking out about. All the figures that have come out or have been shown are obvious. Except for the stationary gun for the rebs. The pace of release is what I would call the minimum for a Miniature’s game. I don’t expect them to do anything crazy or progressive till after the 1 year mark. Even then it will most likely be Rouge 1. What I would like to see is a small up tick in the release pattern. For example. The 2 units for 1faction is ok however, I would like to see 2 for rebs and 1 imperial. Then in the next cycle do the reverse. 2 imps and 1 reb. That would pic up the pace of the game and give each faction more interest each release cycle. With that said. The game is fun and balanced at this time. So as long as they can keep this pace for the next year it should do well. JMHO
I must admit the prevalence of epic heroes really contradicts the point of it being random small skirmishes. The Emperor and 5 stormtroopers vs Han and a snowspeeder just feels like a scenario that an 8 year old kid with action figures would come up with.
Sqorgar wrote: I think I'm out. It's not that I dislike the gameplay (far from it, I like it very much), but it just feels like a Warcraft 2 Star Wars mod. It feels like a Star Wars skin wrapped around a different game. You've got the Emperor, Imperial Guards, Boba Fett, and Snowtroopers fighting against Jedi Luke, Fleet Troopers, and Endor rebels. At not point in any of the Star Wars movies did this scenario happen, nor could it have happened. There's not even a fantasy "What if" scenario in which such a thing was possible, since these game pieces fundamentally are at odds with their function in the Star Wars universe.
In complete honesty, if they had made Legion about the prequels, it would all fit together beautifully, and be a stellar example of how to build a Star Wars IP miniature game. Because of the prequels, the Clone Wars, and even Rebels, almost every character was on a battlefield at one point or another, and large epic battles were commonplace - but they chose to make it about characters that literally would never and could never be seen together on a battlefield. Maybe they'll announce some Clone Wars factions at Gen Con...
The weird thing is, I really loved the Star Wars CCG from Decipher, and you could do basically the same random things there. There was once a battle between Grand Moff Tarkin and Aunt Beru in the Death Star trash compactor that was fairly epic. I can't quite put my finger on why this is, but I think that it might be because the CCG was character based, rather than army based.
This is exactly why I dint ever get into his game. The emperor fighting a few revels with boba fett at his side. It’s so silly. And the emperor would absolutely murder any basic humans. It wouldn’t be a fight. I dislike special characters in 40k, here it’s even sillier. Shame really.
Sqorgar wrote: I think I'm out. It's not that I dislike the gameplay (far from it, I like it very much), but it just feels like a Warcraft 2 Star Wars mod. It feels like a Star Wars skin wrapped around a different game. You've got the Emperor, Imperial Guards, Boba Fett, and Snowtroopers fighting against Jedi Luke, Fleet Troopers, and Endor rebels. At not point in any of the Star Wars movies did this scenario happen, nor could it have happened. There's not even a fantasy "What if" scenario in which such a thing was possible, since these game pieces fundamentally are at odds with their function in the Star Wars universe.
In complete honesty, if they had made Legion about the prequels, it would all fit together beautifully, and be a stellar example of how to build a Star Wars IP miniature game. Because of the prequels, the Clone Wars, and even Rebels, almost every character was on a battlefield at one point or another, and large epic battles were commonplace - but they chose to make it about characters that literally would never and could never be seen together on a battlefield. Maybe they'll announce some Clone Wars factions at Gen Con...
The weird thing is, I really loved the Star Wars CCG from Decipher, and you could do basically the same random things there. There was once a battle between Grand Moff Tarkin and Aunt Beru in the Death Star trash compactor that was fairly epic. I can't quite put my finger on why this is, but I think that it might be because the CCG was character based, rather than army based.
This is exactly why I dint ever get into his game. The emperor fighting a few revels with boba fett at his side. It’s so silly. And the emperor would absolutely murder any basic humans. It wouldn’t be a fight. I dislike special characters in 40k, here it’s even sillier. Shame really.
My approach has been to simply pretend they're not actually characters at all but archetypes, and to ignore the force wielders entirely. So I don't have General Veers, I have ISB Commander Adira Nox with her own converted model. It's not a fantastic solution since it means I have to find like-minded people if I want to avoid fighting every battle against Luke Skywalker and chums, and I have to deal with the kind of utterly pedantic scumbags who seem to be a significant minority presence in the FFG fanbase who will call anyone who doesn't assemble the models exactly as-per the instructions a literal cheater, but unlike with X-Wing it seems like Legion has attracted just enough "traditional" wargamers to make finding the former and ignoring the latter a possibility.
Kanluwen wrote: The sad part is that Rebel wise, they could do quite a bit just with the idea of 'looted' gear. Things like the AT-RT, the gravtank from Rogue One--things leftover from the Clone Wars and on the backwater planets tended to fall into Rebel hands.
That would basically prove my chief criticism of this game though: that there isn't enough depth in the Galactic Civl War, especially from the Rebels side of things, to make interesting and varied forces for a ground-based skirmish wargame. This is especially true when you limit yourselves to the situations displayed in the movies, giving us Fleet Troopers, Hoth Troopers and Endor Commandos as the three infantry types rebels get, three troop types that would never come together in a single fight because that makes zero sense.
I mean, we're already at "Palpatine & Royal Guard" for unit releases.
Yodhrin wrote: ... I can't fathom why I'd ever put the freaking Emperor on the table for a minor skirmish over some supply crates and vapourators.
I have to say Palpatine was the one character I was hoping would never make it into the game. It seems they are already scraping the barrel with the GCW stuff. They should have planned to include the rogue one stuff early on as a lot of that stuff is more fitting for this kind of game.
I do like the gameplay though, it's just that you need more suspension of disbelief as a star wars fan than usual for a game.
Kanluwen wrote: The sad part is that Rebel wise, they could do quite a bit just with the idea of 'looted' gear. Things like the AT-RT, the gravtank from Rogue One--things leftover from the Clone Wars and on the backwater planets tended to fall into Rebel hands.
That would basically prove my chief criticism of this game though: that there isn't enough depth in the Galactic Civl War, especially from the Rebels side of things, to make interesting and varied forces for a ground-based skirmish wargame. This is especially true when you limit yourselves to the situations displayed in the movies, giving us Fleet Troopers, Hoth Troopers and Endor Commandos as the three infantry types rebels get, three troop types that would never come together in a single fight because that makes zero sense.
We've not had Endor Commandos yet though, we've had Rebel Troopers. The whole "doughnut helmets are only for Endor" thing stopped being a thing years ago, the actual not-Endor Commandos unit is still yet to be released. And we're not rehashing the GCW thing, there's plenty of stuff for both sides and room for a Scum faction as well.
I mean, we're already at "Palpatine & Royal Guard" for unit releases.
Which, based on previous FFG release patterns, means that once they release the inevitable Operative Chewie and Hoth Troopers, we'll have pretty much used up all of the obvious "OT only, on-screen only, Rebs vs Imps only" releases and they can hopefully move on to mining all the offscreen nuCanon and EU material.
Yodhrin wrote: ... I can't fathom why I'd ever put the freaking Emperor on the table for a minor skirmish over some supply crates and vapourators.
Because what else is there?
Krennic? Thrawn? Kallus? Yularen? Hell, I'd take Tolvan from the Doctor Aphra comics. There are plenty of other non-Force using Imperial officer archetypes to bring in.
Thargrim wrote: I do like the gameplay though, it's just that you need more suspension of disbelief as a star wars fan than usual for a game.
There's space wizards fighting with laser swords.
I'd argue that space wizards fighting with laser swords require less suspension of disbelief than the Emperor showing up on the frontlines to duke it out with some Rebel scum.
For me suspension of belief wasn't the problem, its just that Stormtroopers fighting alongside Snowtroopers and Royal Guard looks dumb in miniatures.
Like Sqorgar, I was perfectly fine with random crap in the Decipher CCG, and more recently in X-Wing, like Palp flying out in his personal shuttle to shoot down smugglers. But hey that Lambda shuttle flanked by a couple of TIEs did look cool on the table. In contrast. seeing Legions armies in action, they just look awkward to me. IMHO.
Thargrim wrote: I do like the gameplay though, it's just that you need more suspension of disbelief as a star wars fan than usual for a game.
There's space wizards fighting with laser swords.
I'd argue that space wizards fighting with laser swords require less suspension of disbelief than the Emperor showing up on the frontlines to duke it out with some Rebel scum.
Anakin Skywalker, Jedi Knight, is just a memory. Darth Vader, newly anointed Sith Lord, is ascendant. The Emperor's chosen apprentice has swiftly proven his loyalty to the dark side. Still, the history of the Sith Order is one of duplicity, betrayal, and acolytes violently usurping their Masters—and the truest measure of Vader's allegiance has yet to be taken. Until now.
On Ryloth, a planet crucial to the growing Empire as a source of slave labor and the narcotic known as "spice," an aggressive resistance movement has arisen, led by Cham Syndulla, an idealistic freedom fighter, and Isval, a vengeful former slave. But Emperor Palpatine means to control the embattled world and its precious resources—by political power or firepower—and he will be neither intimidated nor denied. Accompanied by his merciless disciple, Darth Vader, he sets out on a rare personal mission to ensure his will is done.
For Syndulla and Isval, it's the opportunity to strike at the very heart of the ruthless dictatorship sweeping the galaxy. And for the Emperor and Darth Vader, Ryloth becomes more than just a matter of putting down an insurrection: When an ambush sends them crashing to the planet's surface, where inhospitable terrain and an army of resistance fighters await them, they will find their relationship tested as never before. With only their lightsabers, the dark side of the Force, and each other to depend on, the two Sith must decide if the brutal bond they share will make them victorious allies or lethal adversaries.[6]
Automatically Appended Next Post: Y'all lack imagination. There are scenarios that might involve the Emperor getting directly involved in front-line combat. Not a huge range, but enough to make his inclusion viable.
An ambush that shoots down the Emperor's shuttle (Lords of the Sith).
A direct assassination attempt on the Emperor himself.
A surprise inspection of a Storm Trooper Legion or Imperial Base by the Emperor, which just happens to coincide with a Rebel raid.
The Emperor is dissatisfied with the performance of an Imperial Unit, and decides to take it upon himself to directly oversee a particularly important mission.
The Emperor suspects Vader of disloyalty, and decides to show up without warning to keep tabs on Vader.
The Emperor running his own operation seeking to secure and plunder the secrets and treasures of an old Jedi or Sith Temple.
The emperor is supposed to be so nails and full of force stuff that even Vader is scared of him. Luke couldn’t get near him or fight him on his own. Now he scrapping over loot crates.
And what is supposed to happen if you’re playing a game and Han kills the emperor or some such nonsense? They needed to use less well known characters or invent their own and tell a new story.
Andykp wrote: The emperor is supposed to be so nails and full of force stuff that even Vader is scared of him. Luke couldn’t get near him or fight him on his own. Now he scrapping over loot crates.
And what is supposed to happen if you’re playing a game and Han kills the emperor or some such nonsense? They needed to use less well known characters or invent their own and tell a new story.
Its a game about Star Wars - Of course they are going to use the movie characters! Thats what they pay all the money for the licence
Andykp wrote: The emperor is supposed to be so nails and full of force stuff that even Vader is scared of him. Luke couldn’t get near him or fight him on his own. Now he scrapping over loot crates.
And what is supposed to happen if you’re playing a game and Han kills the emperor or some such nonsense? They needed to use less well known characters or invent their own and tell a new story.
Its a game about Star Wars - Of course they are going to use the movie characters! Thats what they pay all the money for the licence
But it’s using them in a ludicrous way and it’s putting people off I won’t play this game, and I love skirmish games and love Star Wars. I loved playing Star Wars RPG back in the day but we used no characters from the films. Just the setting. It worked great. There is enough fluff from outside the main films to keep the geeks (us) interested. Kind of ruins the trilogy if a rebel shoots the emperor on some back water planet while he’s looking threw a crate for some loot. Or more likely, ruins the game because it doesn’t make sense. Skirmish games especially should tell a story. Be close to an RPG.
Andykp wrote: The emperor is supposed to be so nails and full of force stuff that even Vader is scared of him. Luke couldn’t get near him or fight him on his own. Now he scrapping over loot crates.
And what is supposed to happen if you’re playing a game and Han kills the emperor or some such nonsense? They needed to use less well known characters or invent their own and tell a new story.
The same thing that happens when a lowly Termagaunt or Tau Firewarrior gets lucky and scores the final killing wound on Roboute Guilliman in games of Warhammer 40K.
You shake your opponent's hand, say GG, and arrange to play a rematch.
Andykp wrote: The emperor is supposed to be so nails and full of force stuff that even Vader is scared of him. Luke couldn’t get near him or fight him on his own. Now he scrapping over loot crates.
And what is supposed to happen if you’re playing a game and Han kills the emperor or some such nonsense? They needed to use less well known characters or invent their own and tell a new story.
The same thing that happens when a lowly Termagaunt or Tau Firewarrior gets lucky and scores the final killing wound on Roboute Guilliman in games of Warhammer 40K.
You shake your opponent's hand, say GG, and arrange to play a rematch.
Its a game. It happens. Get over it.
Tats why I dint use special character in 40k, the good thing there is the game works well without named characters, not at a super competitive level but that not how I play. This game relies on named characters. You have to use them. I can’t do that as it is silly for them to be their. The emperor would’ve mentioned if he and Luke had had a bunch of scraps over some boxes. It’s the suspension of disbelief thing. I can so for. So I won’t “get over it”. It is a game I won’t be playing and I just won’t give them my money. Swing had a similar problem for me. Maybe it’s because Star Wars is a complete story they are setting games in where as 40k and age of Sigmar are settings for games. I had the same issue with the lord of the rings games.
And no one has addressed my point that the emperor is supposed to be super nails and could force kick anyone’s bottom. The royal guard are also supposed to be pretty fierce too. How power full is the emperor in game? Can he just ruin the whole opposition with his mind on turn one or is he only using a fraction of his powers?
Even if you are happy to play using the emperor you have to admit that it is a problem that they are wheeling out such characters already.
Even if you are happy to play using the emperor you have to admit that it is a problem that they are wheeling out such characters already.
Not really. Model releases aren't about power escalation in licensed products; they're about notoriety. The Emperor is usually a baseline character for the Empire. He was one of the first three playable heroes in Battlefront for the same reason. They'll get most of the OT content out first, then move into EU territory. Pretty much every Star Wars game does something similar.
Vertrucio wrote: There's space wizards fighting with laser swords.
This argument misses the point of suspension of disbelief. SOD is when the reader accepts the premise or setting of a story. It does not and should not apply to the more human elements, such as motivation, actions and reactions, and appropriate social interactions. SOD means space wizards with laser swords are not a problem, but dumb wizards who use laser swords ineptly to advance the plot is a problem. The Emperor of a galactic empire getting into a skirmish with snow troopers and rainforest troopers on some backwoods desert system is a problem.
I think it’s funny that trolls come to this forum to talk trash and waste time. No one care if you play this game. If you are to stuiped to understand that the most seen and popular stuff from the OT come first go away or grow up. In 800 points you can bring more then just Han and a snow speeder or Palp and 5 troopers. If you want to talk trash fine. How about you use real examples from the game as played. Or just walk away from the tread and let people talk about a game they are interested in. So let’s get back to a constructive conversation about the game, it’s units and upcoming releases.
Vertrucio wrote: There's space wizards fighting with laser swords.
This argument misses the point of suspension of disbelief. SOD is when the reader accepts the premise or setting of a story. It does not and should not apply to the more human elements, such as motivation, actions and reactions, and appropriate social interactions. SOD means space wizards with laser swords are not a problem, but dumb wizards who use laser swords ineptly to advance the plot is a problem. The Emperor of a galactic empire getting into a skirmish with snow troopers and rainforest troopers on some backwoods desert system is a problem.
Dr. Doom knows you always need plausible deniability that it was just a Doombot that got his ass kicked by Squirrel Girl or had an epic meltdown in the drivethru.
Sqorgar wrote: I think I'm out. It's not that I dislike the gameplay (far from it, I like it very much), but it just feels like a Warcraft 2 Star Wars mod. It feels like a Star Wars skin wrapped around a different game. You've got the Emperor, Imperial Guards, Boba Fett, and Snowtroopers fighting against Jedi Luke, Fleet Troopers, and Endor rebels. At not point in any of the Star Wars movies did this scenario happen, nor could it have happened. There's not even a fantasy "What if" scenario in which such a thing was possible, since these game pieces fundamentally are at odds with their function in the Star Wars universe.
In complete honesty, if they had made Legion about the prequels, it would all fit together beautifully, and be a stellar example of how to build a Star Wars IP miniature game. Because of the prequels, the Clone Wars, and even Rebels, almost every character was on a battlefield at one point or another, and large epic battles were commonplace - but they chose to make it about characters that literally would never and could never be seen together on a battlefield. Maybe they'll announce some Clone Wars factions at Gen Con...
The weird thing is, I really loved the Star Wars CCG from Decipher, and you could do basically the same random things there. There was once a battle between Grand Moff Tarkin and Aunt Beru in the Death Star trash compactor that was fairly epic. I can't quite put my finger on why this is, but I think that it might be because the CCG was character based, rather than army based.
Clone Wars and I'm in But until then I'm content seeing how Legion grows up and fills out its factions from the sidelines. Palpatine is definitely an unexpected twist
griffen127 wrote: I think it’s funny that trolls come to this forum to talk trash and waste time. No one care if you play this game. If you are to stuiped to understand that the most seen and popular stuff from the OT come first go away or grow up. In 800 points you can bring more then just Han and a snow speeder or Palp and 5 troopers. If you want to talk trash fine. How about you use real examples from the game as played. Or just walk away from the tread and let people talk about a game they are interested in. So let’s get back to a constructive conversation about the game, it’s units and upcoming releases.
So this is only a forum for people who like the game. I love star wars and love the models released for this game and hear good things about gameplay, I came here because it had news of releases. I commented on them. Sorry if you don’t like my comments but they are as valid as anyone’s. I made constructive criticism of the release and didn’t insult anyone or say they shouldn’t play. U need to chill, and if all the geeks out there grew up star wars based anything would be in trouble.
And what is supposed to happen if you’re playing a game and Han kills the emperor or some such nonsense?
You tell Fox, and they re-write RotJ.
Or it might not actually matter. Think of it as a 'what-if' scenario. Or imagine that it wasn't actually the Emperor, but was a sneaky stand-in in a hood. Or he wasn't actually killed, just taken out of action, or chose to make it appear that he had been killed.
It's a game setting. It doesn't have to follow the story-line of the existing fiction, it just has to give you the opportunity to fight battles within that universe.
And what is supposed to happen if you’re playing a game and Han kills the emperor or some such nonsense?
You tell Fox, and they re-write RotJ.
Or it might not actually matter. Think of it as a 'what-if' scenario. Or imagine that it wasn't actually the Emperor, but was a sneaky stand-in in a hood. Or he wasn't actually killed, just taken out of action, or chose to make it appear that he had been killed.
It's a game setting. It doesn't have to follow the story-line of the existing fiction, it just has to give you the opportunity to fight battles within that universe.
And that’s beyond my suspension of disbelief levels unfortunately. Because I love the idea behind this game. Does anyone know if it works without “special characters”. Can you play just using generic troopers?
Automatically Appended Next Post: I add I don’t play competitively just casual with like minded types.
I’ve not said that. And no one said it to me. It’s clear some people like games filled with known characters, some 40k players love them but the game works without them. X wing did well with all its characters being great and the like, the walking dead skirmish game too does well. All I’m asking is if it works without them because I don’t like that. People play however they like. Seems an even split between those who think the emperor is a good release and those who are put off by it.
You'll probably have to use Veers as "Generic Imperial Commander #3849" for the time being, because beyond the basic Troopers I think its gonna be heavily tilted towards using characters. Its kinda like, they took playing with your action figures (as a kid) and then made them smaller and into a game.
Clone Wars and I'm waaaay out. What would be the point? A second-rate Empire against a joke droid force?
I'm a little concerned about the named character direction too. I'd at least want a cheap generic "Imperial Colonel" and "Rebel Commander" on the radar by now so that people can make it more about the squads, but that's not what FFG are pushing so we'll see I guess. There's little point bringing out all the named Imperial officers as the models will be very samey and none of them really do anything on screen besides Veers, but there's obviously Krennic, you'd expect to see Thrawn (and Pryce? Rukh?). After that there are a few Imperials to scrape from the EU who would have interesting profiles.
Oh, they'll get to the Clone Wars, unfortunately. That being said they've already released a good amount of miniatures for any Star Wars gamer/fan. I just hope they don't cut and run to another portion of the story too soon.
Runewars is playable without named characters, and people have used tie swarms to decent effect in X-wing, so I’m a lot more trusting non-character games of Star Wars will work, but you may have to work a little harder/smarter.
However, I’m not sure I get the character hate for this game (I understand for 40K, herohammer was/is a thing!). It’s not like the WotC skirmish game or the West End version didn’t have these characters available for play - even the original RPG had stats for the Emperor and what game would allow a band of no-name RPG heroes to off the Emperor? Heck, I think Imperial Assault had an Emperor add-on for it as well.
This is Star Wars - it’s always been about the charCTERS AND I don’t think half the people - or more - playing WOULD play if they couldn’t use their favorite movie hero/villain. So long as they’re balanced, why stop them?
One reason I was disappointed that Legion wasn't going to crossover with Imperial Assault was that the property is fundamentally cinematic, and having characterful heroes mixed in through all the nameless troops would really bring that across, I felt. And having only the main characters from the movies, the marquee names, showing up to every battle made the tone of the game seem kind of off, maybe a little silly. That being said, I think you do have to meet a game, work of art, creative whatever on its own terms, at its level of reality, its desired tone, etc. if you really want to engage with it or have a critique of it. This is the level of reality they are going for, it's your favorite characters from the movies leading battles of lesser extras. Which might mean Chewie beats Emperor Palpatine to death with the butt of his crossbow ray gun, but that's the tone of their miniatures game. It's open to new and different outcomes, and maybe the main characters are behaving like they would in a video game and walking across a battlefield to punch each other, while you wouldn't have them do that in a carefully crafted narrative. I guess it's just something you have to take or leave.
Also no Clone Wars. I don't think they will just because too many people wouldn't buy it, people who would buy OT stuff, and financially it's rough to make anything that doesn't appeal to your fanbase widely.
I'm gonna be a bit of a hipster and say I want to see Disney Sequel Trilogy models. I was ambivalent to TFA and hated TLJ, but damn will the First Order and Kylo Ren look good on the tabletop.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: I'm gonna be a bit of a hipster and say I want to see Disney Sequel Trilogy models. I was ambivalent to TFA and hated TLJ, but damn will the First Order and Kylo Ren look good on the tabletop.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: You'll probably have to use Veers as "Generic Imperial Commander #3849" for the time being, because beyond the basic Troopers I think its gonna be heavily tilted towards using characters. Its kinda like, they took playing with your action figures (as a kid) and then made them smaller and into a game.
Cheers I’ll keep an eye out. I don’t begrudge them using the characters, like was said they paid for the license and there’s clearly a market for it, but it’s not for me. I’ll watch it develop, its still young as a game. If they have made it like my games as a kid with the figures then there would be a lot of “pew pew” going from me.
Stormonu wrote: Aww, I really want Clone troopers (not so much interested in droids).
The prequels weren’t THAT bad, go back and really watch the original trilogy. They’re about the same level of campiness.
They're really not. Even as a huge Star Wars fan and someone who actually enjoys watching them from time to time, I'm happy to admit that the prequels are pretty, but are awful movies.
Having said that, Clone Wars would absolutely make for a more interesting wargame than the Rebellion era. Yes, the original battle droids are a little useless, but they make up for it with weight of numbers and by bringing along their bigger and scarier friends. And Clone Troopers are just cool. They're like Storm Troopers, but with the ability to aim...
Me and my bud played a legion game recently, he used veers as a generic commander and i used luke because that was the only commander i owned at the time. You can see luke as a random jedi and that this fight takes place before rouge one, my leader was a jedi that survived up to this point and his commander was sent to find out if there was a rebel base. What he found was a jedi with some rebel troopers! Game was great, i lost horribly on points but using my snow speeder to buzz his general and light the bastard up as he was trying to capture a "victory" location was great. My jedi also charged and killed 4 troopers in combat, but his at-st is something else to fight. It doesn't feel OP but it feels properly tough and nasty.
So yeah you can play the game with limited characters. Now that leia is an option you could just use a custom random "commander" as her. I hope they do release some generic characters at some point, but i doubt they will. It will be up to us to do it for them.
Stormonu wrote: Aww, I really want Clone troopers (not so much interested in droids).
The prequels weren’t THAT bad, go back and really watch the original trilogy. They’re about the same level of campiness.
They're really not. Even as a huge Star Wars fan and someone who actually enjoys watching them from time to time, I'm happy to admit that the prequels are pretty, but are awful movies.
I'm of the opinion that the prequels are deeply flawed movies that have moments of absolute brilliance and moments that are borderline unwatchable. But for me, the value in the Star Wars property has never been the movies themselves, but the games that come out of them. Dr. Evazan and Ponda Baba are barely in ANH, didn't have even have names, but some of my fondest memories of the Star Wars CCG was playing them in the Cantina and spouting off "We're wanted men. I have the death sentence on twelve systems."
I think the prequels had a lot of material there, and to me, playing in Theed and roaming Mustafar in Star Wars Galaxies is as important a Star Wars memory as anything from the original trilogy. And unlike the original trilogy, the prequels weren't just three movies. It was technically four movies, and about 8 seasons of television (some of which was the absolute pinnacle of Star Wars canon). So say what you want about the quality of the prequels as individual movies, they were Star Wars to me - and some of the best Star Wars that ever was.
The new movies aren't Star Wars. I don't know what they are, but they aren't Star Wars.
Having said that, Clone Wars would absolutely make for a more interesting wargame than the Rebellion era. Yes, the original battle droids are a little useless, but they make up for it with weight of numbers and by bringing along their bigger and scarier friends. And Clone Troopers are just cool. They're like Storm Troopers, but with the ability to aim...
Clone troopers also had different paint schemes, different armor styles, different names (Captain Cody, Fives), and would've made the hobby element far, far more interesting than Stormtroopers. Not to mention, it makes sense for the Jedi and Clone Troopers to be different armies that can fight against each other.
It really frustrates me that FFG is making the wrong Star Wars miniature game. Their approach with Legion would be perfect for Clone Wars, while a more hero based skirmish game (like expanding Imperial Assault beyond the board) would've been more appropriate for the OT.
I've been on the fence for a while about this game. Not a massive fan of the idea of lots of pitched battles with the rebels, I've seen them more as an operative guerilla warfare terrorists style with only the occasional pitched battle where they are forced into a corner. But the Royal guard look really cool and would love to do a force of them. How feasible would that be?
Just Royal Guard can't be done as they are Special Forces and all armies need a number of regular Corps units such as basic stormtroopers or snowtroopers.
There's also a maximum amount of Special Forces you can take, but the online rules reference appears to not include this information at the moment.
There's also a maximum amount of Special Forces you can take, but the online rules reference appears to not include this information at the moment.
For whatever reason, its under "Rank" instead of being in the army building section. You can have up to 3 units of Guard, though the Emperor's card seems to allow you take a 4th.
From the looks of it, you can take 3 squads of barebones Stormtroopers, 4 maxed out units of Royal Guard and the Emperor under 800 points. Not sure if it would be good, but it sounds fun.
Riquende wrote: Clone Wars and I'm waaaay out. What would be the point?
Well, for one thing, it's an actual war.
SNAP!
Personally I just prefer the pre-Episode IV universe (Clone Wars the series being the standout) and maybe even pre-Episode I (Knights of the Old Republic in the house). Some of that's the scale of the conflict compacting from IV on, a lot of that is the decreasing number of Jedis, and even more of that is the paucity of Sith. I want lots of good and bad space wizards, preferably embroiled in a massive galactic war waged across multiple fronts
I've previously just spitballed Clone Wars stuff when talking at the LGS, so I'm excited to hear a) other people want it to and b) it might actually be a thing
Seriously, where has this ridiculous idea that the Galactic Civil War wasn't actually a war come from? Is it really just that people can't wrap their brains around the idea that it was a wider conflict than depicted in the OT, while Clone Wars got a few big battle scenes and a cartoon with more of them?
And don't give me this "Rebels were just an insurgency" stuff, because firstly that's not accurate, and secondly even if it were and the Alliance never moved beyond the kind of thing depicted in the Rebels show, why would that matter? Was the Iraq War not a war? The War in Afghanistan? The Vietnam War? Just because one side has a numbers and supply advantage and the other is a more rag-tag insurgent force doesn't mean a major, years-long conflict between the two entities isn't actually a "proper" war.
If you prefer other eras because of the aesthetic or the greater prevalence of force users, fine, but some folk need to stop trying to tear down the GCW era to try and lend their preference false authority.
Yodhrin wrote: Seriously, where has this ridiculous idea that the Galactic Civil War wasn't actually a war come from? Is it really just that people can't wrap their brains around the idea that it was a wider conflict than depicted in the OT, while Clone Wars got a few big battle scenes and a cartoon with more of them?
And don't give me this "Rebels were just an insurgency" stuff, because firstly that's not accurate, and secondly even if it were and the Alliance never moved beyond the kind of thing depicted in the Rebels show, why would that matter? Was the Iraq War not a war? The War in Afghanistan? The Vietnam War? Just because one side has a numbers and supply advantage and the other is a more rag-tag insurgent force doesn't mean a major, years-long conflict between the two entities isn't actually a "proper" war.
If you prefer other eras because of the aesthetic or the greater prevalence of force users, fine, but some folk need to stop trying to tear down the GCW era to try and lend their preference false authority.
Who has said it wasn't a real war? People has said that it doesn't has the same depth of military backrgound.
On the table, a lot of Legion's games look to be on the scale of RotJ. Either Rebels attacking an Imperial facility or Vader discovering a Rebel stronghold and wiping it out. It's really not like... a huge....war or anything.
On the subject of the prequels; much like the OT; the prequels have become an interesting setting for gaming almost entirely back on the EU built around it. Much like how most OT gaming leans on the EU once it gets past recreating 3-4 key scenes from the films, the bulk of the prequels worth playing in is the result of all the work that's been put in to bridging the gap between Ep 2-3.
LunarSol wrote: On the subject of the prequels; much like the OT; the prequels have become an interesting setting for gaming almost entirely back on the EU built around it. Much like how most OT gaming leans on the EU once it gets past recreating 3-4 key scenes from the films, the bulk of the prequels worth playing in is the result of all the work that's been put in to bridging the gap between Ep 2-3.
Are you counting the Clone Wars tv show as EU? George Lucas was a part of every story meeting and was intimately involved in the show. Multiple characters, episodes, and ideas were directly from him.
Also, I disagree. Episode 3 had so much awesome game material - so many Jedi, clone trooper variations, droid types, alien planets, weapons, space fighters, tanks, and war machines... the Order 66 montage alone had enough material for years of game releases. Episode 2 had some great material too, such as Coruscant's underworld. It really seems like people have this blind spot when it comes to the prequels where they refuse to even acknowledge they exist or that they had good qualities. They were amazing, flawed movies, and I've seen a hundred movies more flawed and less amazing get a lot more praise for doing a lot less (like anything in the Marvel cinematic universe).
I keep seeing people try to give credit for Star Wars to everybody but George Lucas. A New Hope was only good because his wife, the editor, managed to save it in post production. The reason the prequels suck is because he didn't have anyone to tell him no. Lucas does everything wrong, nothing right. Selling Star Wars to Disney was the best decision ever, because now, Star Wars is finally in the hands of someone competent - am I right?
Sqorgar wrote: Also, I disagree. Episode 3 had so much awesome game material - so many Jedi, clone trooper variations, droid types, alien planets, weapons, space fighters, tanks, and war machines
Come on FFG, gimme them hailfire droid tanks like *choom choom choom*
I do count the show as EU. I consider anything outside of the films to be extended content. Realistically, with a blaster to my head, I'd probably also say the same about solo and maybe even Rogue One. That's not to bash any of it. Most of my love of the franchise comes from the extended sandbox.
Ep 3 does have a lot of good toys, but they flash by almost like a trailer. Where I think the EU really helps is by putting them down on the table and showing people how fun they can be to play with. It's where a lot of background characters got personalities and motivations that make the battlefields of the Clones Wars interesting to play on.
overtyrant wrote: I've been on the fence for a while about this game. Not a massive fan of the idea of lots of pitched battles with the rebels, I've seen them more as an operative guerilla warfare terrorists style with only the occasional pitched battle where they are forced into a corner. But the Royal guard look really cool and would love to do a force of them. How feasible would that be?
You know, I don't think Snowtroopers painted red would look out of place in an army like that. They've got capes, and similar helmets. Take the minimum to fill your requirements, and call them Royal Acolytes.
overtyrant wrote: I've been on the fence for a while about this game. Not a massive fan of the idea of lots of pitched battles with the rebels, I've seen them more as an operative guerilla warfare terrorists style with only the occasional pitched battle where they are forced into a corner. But the Royal guard look really cool and would love to do a force of them. How feasible would that be?
You know, I don't think Snowtroopers painted red would look out of place in an army like that. They've got capes, and similar helmets. Take the minimum to fill your requirements, and call them Royal Acolytes.
I'm doing something similar - I'm painting my Stormtroopers up as 501st legion (with blue stripes), and the Snowtroopers will be painted as Arc Troopers and I'll be referring to them as Assault Troopers - no snow about them. Led by Vader, of course, with Mustafar (cracked Magma) bases.
Sqorgar wrote: But for me, the value in the Star Wars property has never been the movies themselves, but the games that come out of them. Dr. Evazan and Ponda Baba are barely in ANH, didn't have even have names, but some of my fondest memories of the Star Wars CCG was playing them in the Cantina and spouting off "We're wanted men. I have the death sentence on twelve systems."
I LOVE Evazan in the old Decipher CCG. His special was just ridiculous. "Come into this AT-AT Obi-Wan... let me 'treat' that injury!" Bossk's Mortar Gun was equally amazing for its absurd ability to blow up abstract Utinni effects. I have fond memories of destroying "Yoda's Hope" with a grenade somehow.
Riquende wrote: Clone Wars and I'm waaaay out. What would be the point?
Well, for one thing, it's an actual war.
SNAP!
shrugs
I hope your clever internet victory bring you solace every time a Legion wave goes by without any of the CW-era pointless tosh. Regardless, the Galactic Civil War has always been war enough for me. But then I used to read the WEG sourcebooks about the Rebel Alliance and Empire which into a lot of detail about the wider scope of the conflict than the films or any books ever did.
Didn’t Solo open up a whole scope for Empire-era conflicts with the scenes of the Imperial infantry (non-Stormtoopers) on Mimban, etc.? The Empire’s wars of conques/consolidation seem quite interesting to me.
overtyrant wrote: I've been on the fence for a while about this game. Not a massive fan of the idea of lots of pitched battles with the rebels, I've seen them more as an operative guerilla warfare terrorists style with only the occasional pitched battle where they are forced into a corner. But the Royal guard look really cool and would love to do a force of them. How feasible would that be?
You know, I don't think Snowtroopers painted red would look out of place in an army like that. They've got capes, and similar helmets. Take the minimum to fill your requirements, and call them Royal Acolytes.
Honestly I see the need for Legion to be Original Trilogy stuff, but I personally think the game could get 10 times the mileage by being a Star wars: The Clone Wars tabletop game. Say what you want about the slow, dour political thrillers that the Prequels were, but the Clone Wars battle scenes, along with the TV series, were really good space fantasy action, with lots of different troop types and vehicles spread between several factions.
Say nothing of lots of Jedi and lightsaber-wielders on both sides, as well as more mundane commanders (and generic force-using commanders being much more possible, so not every army has to be Luke vs. Vader if you want lightsabers on the table).
The main problem with the Clone Wars would be the prevalence of the basic droids which are stupid and uninteresting and would be really lame to play (if they behaved/acted/worked like they did in the films). You'd need to concentrate on any other option you could find as opposition.
Well, yeah. They couldn't be comic relief like they were most of the time (although Super Battle Droids changed that some), but frankly it's not like we ever see Stormtroopers as much more effective for the Empire. And Clones are pretty much merely mooks to deliver a Jedi to their required lightsaber scene most of the time, too.
I think it's all pretty relative when you are dealing with the basic troops for a setting. I just meant that FFG could go further with the Clone Wars before having to dip into some pretty fringe stuff for content.
It still throws me off big time. Legion I am thinking large 40K games, this is a small skirmish game like Kill Team. Either I have the name wrong, or I believe FFG has chosen the wrong name.
For me it's if you have the name wrong for the game, what else is wrong. While from what I have read that is not the case that is what sticks in my head every time I see Legion name.
Elbows wrote: The main problem with the Clone Wars would be the prevalence of the basic droids which are stupid and uninteresting and would be really lame to play (if they behaved/acted/worked like they did in the films). You'd need to concentrate on any other option you could find as opposition.
B1 Battle droids would just be standard Corps troopers.
There's a large amount of droids outside of them, you've got Droidekas, B2 Battle droids (The supers), the BX commando Droids, Tactical droid (though this might be reserves as a generalist Commander), the various sort of heavy droids (too many to name), and other things that could be used.
Though I'd honestly love the Magnaguards as a model.. Well, if they include the cloaks. The cloaks need to be on them.
Elbows wrote: But would you want FFG doing a random smattering of stuff from various eras, or just concentrate on one era at a time?
One era at a time, preferably one that involved an actual war.
Like the Clone Wars, which are now #Saved.
Yodhrin wrote: Seriously, where has this ridiculous idea that the Galactic Civil War wasn't actually a war come from? Is it really just that people can't wrap their brains around the idea that it was a wider conflict than depicted in the OT, while Clone Wars got a few big battle scenes and a cartoon with more of them?
And don't give me this "Rebels were just an insurgency" stuff, because firstly that's not accurate, and secondly even if it were and the Alliance never moved beyond the kind of thing depicted in the Rebels show, why would that matter? Was the Iraq War not a war? The War in Afghanistan? The Vietnam War? Just because one side has a numbers and supply advantage and the other is a more rag-tag insurgent force doesn't mean a major, years-long conflict between the two entities isn't actually a "proper" war.
None of that is helping your point, especially your Vietnam war analogy. It wasn't all Viet Cong y'know. Ever heard of the NVA?
The Rebel Alliance were a partisan group. Their chief tactics were guerilla warfare, covert strikes and the occasional resource-stretching fleet battle (although even then it was usually their more-advanced fighters doing lightning hit'n'run strikes, as demonstrated multiple times during the films).
There was no protracted war. Not like the Clone Wars, which had massive fleets and legions of troopers fighting it out over vast swathes of territory both in space and on the ground. The Rebels never got their 'army' together to fight against legions of Imperial Storm Troopers.
Insane Ivan wrote: Didn’t Solo open up a whole scope for Empire-era conflicts with the scenes of the Imperial infantry (non-Stormtoopers) on Mimban, etc.? The Empire’s wars of conques/consolidation seem quite interesting to me.
Yes, so FFG can add another disparate Trooper type to the kaleidoscope of Imperial and Rebel forces that would never fight alongside one another (Endor Commandos and a Snowspeeder vs Hoth Troopers and Royal Guard! Ohh! How Star Wars-y!!!).
Well, they are pretty hamstrung by the lack of variety of iconic troops in the movies they are drawing from. And unlike the Clone Wars-based movies and show, none of the original trilogy have any real grunt-on- grunt action that aren't specialized troops in isolated circumstances (other than the Commandos vs. Stormtroopers on Endor).
You're right to say it's not anything like the scale of the clone wars, HBMC, but wrong to say the rebel alliance "never got its' army together to fight against legions of stormtroopers" - certainly it was asymmetrical but there are a few examples of ground battles between the rebel alliance and the empire not including hoth and endor that are canon
Elbows wrote: But would you want FFG doing a random smattering of stuff from various eras, or just concentrate on one era at a time?
One era at a time, preferably one that involved an actual war.
Like the Clone Wars, which are now #Saved.
Yodhrin wrote: Seriously, where has this ridiculous idea that the Galactic Civil War wasn't actually a war come from? Is it really just that people can't wrap their brains around the idea that it was a wider conflict than depicted in the OT, while Clone Wars got a few big battle scenes and a cartoon with more of them?
And don't give me this "Rebels were just an insurgency" stuff, because firstly that's not accurate, and secondly even if it were and the Alliance never moved beyond the kind of thing depicted in the Rebels show, why would that matter? Was the Iraq War not a war? The War in Afghanistan? The Vietnam War? Just because one side has a numbers and supply advantage and the other is a more rag-tag insurgent force doesn't mean a major, years-long conflict between the two entities isn't actually a "proper" war.
None of that is helping your point, especially your Vietnam war analogy. It wasn't all Viet Cong y'know. Ever heard of the NVA?
The Rebel Alliance were a partisan group. Their chief tactics were guerilla warfare, covert strikes and the occasional resource-stretching fleet battle (although even then it was usually their more-advanced fighters doing lightning hit'n'run strikes, as demonstrated multiple times during the films).
There was no protracted war. Not like the Clone Wars, which had massive fleets and legions of troopers fighting it out over vast swathes of territory both in space and on the ground. The Rebels never got their 'army' together to fight against legions of Imperial Storm Troopers.
Insane Ivan wrote: Didn’t Solo open up a whole scope for Empire-era conflicts with the scenes of the Imperial infantry (non-Stormtoopers) on Mimban, etc.? The Empire’s wars of conques/consolidation seem quite interesting to me.
Yes, so FFG can add another disparate Trooper type to the kaleidoscope of Imperial and Rebel forces that would never fight alongside one another (Endor Commandos and a Snowspeeder vs Hoth Troopers and Royal Guard! Ohh! How Star Wars-y!!!).
The Solo movie and Rebels has somewhat changed that. We get hints in Solo of a larger ground war going on at Mimban (isn’t that the swamp planet from “Splinter of the Mind’s Eye” . Rebels have had a couple skirmishes on Ezra’s home planet, near the end of the series.
Also, I’ll take random Clone Troopers over the Emperor showing up in a skirmish game any day.
Also, all the canon that people are basing their opinions on has mostly been wiped. Anything now is stuff they pick and choose for modern books and movies.
Meanwhile, my space wizard with laser sword is going to go cut up more bad guys with laser guns that literally go pew pew.
The Solo movie and Rebels has somewhat changed that. We get hints in Solo of a larger ground war going on at Mimban (isn’t that the swamp planet from “Splinter of the Mind’s Eye” . Rebels have had a couple skirmishes on Ezra’s home planet, near the end of the series.
The thing is whether or not that's the Rebel Alliance for Mimban.. or some bog standard rebellion, which the Empire has a bunch to deal with because sometimes things don't like being oppressed.
Snow speeders are just rebel airspeeders fitted with extra equipment to handle the environment on Hoth. It's not a stretch that the rebels would use them elsewhere.
Snowtroopers can be run alongside normal Stormtroopers as Galactic Marines. They look almost the same, and that extra gear can be considered protection from other hostile environments, not just snow.
Imo, the only unit that's been announced that just doesn't work is Palpatine's Royal Guard. And clearly I'm not the only one who thinks they'd be worthless in combat, George Lucas and DICE gave him squads of personal Shock Troopers in EP III and Battlefront 2015.
zend wrote: Snow speeders are just rebel airspeeders fitted with extra equipment to handle the environment on Hoth. It's not a stretch that the rebels would use them elsewhere.
Snowtroopers can be run alongside normal Stormtroopers as Galactic Marines. They look almost the same, and that extra gear can be considered protection from other hostile environments, not just snow.
Imo, the only unit that's been announced that just doesn't work is Palpatine's Royal Guard. And clearly I'm not the only one who thinks they'd be worthless in combat, George Lucas and DICE gave him squads of personal Shock Troopers in EP III and Battlefront 2015.
Kind of hope in the future if they introduce more options for units we get the energy pike they used in Rebels to bind people from afar. But at the same time, it seems they wanted to use the base idea of the Royal Guard using their force pikes first.. The lore had them changing out weaponry when they needed to be in more frontline combat rather then a defensive guard role (As shown in.. I think it was EA's battlefront?)
So, Gencon stream is done with Star Wars stuff, news:
*Chewie Operative plus Wookie Warriors unit, coming Q4.
*New "Personnel" packs for both factions, containing Officer, Medic, Comms Tech and one other I missed, can be used to upgrade squads but also the Officer can be used as a generic Commander, Rebel one is Q1 2019.
*Clone Wars is confirmed, more info towards the end of the year.
Like what I heard. The specialist upgrade + generic officers is something I specifically asked for, and Clone Wars? Heck yeah. I may give this another chance next year when the clones release.
I'm not particularly fussed about Clone Wars stuff, was hoping for them to announce some Rogue One and Solo tie-in releases or a Scum faction, but it seems like plenty of people like it and it makes sense to try and tap some of the hype from the CW show revival series.
Yodhrin wrote: *Clone Wars is confirmed, more info towards the end of the year.
"This year we're announcing Clone Wars, but we're not going to talk about it at the biggest gaming convention of the year, because that'd just be silly!"
Nice to see that Legions will actually now be about a war, and 6 guys and their dog fighting an entire planet.
Yodhrin wrote: So, Gencon stream is done with Star Wars stuff, news:
*Chewie Operative plus Wookie Warriors unit, coming Q4.
*New "Personnel" packs for both factions, containing Officer, Medic, Comms Tech and one other I missed, can be used to upgrade squads but also the Officer can be used as a generic Commander, Rebel one is Q1 2019.
*Clone Wars is confirmed, more info towards the end of the year.
A wookie squad is cool. Good to see that as an option.
Generic officer is for Imperials, too? I really just want a Stormtrooper commander. None of this name character crap.
Clone Wars and roger rogers will be interesting to a friend of mine.
zend wrote: Not a fan of the wookies being close range specialists, but I dig the models.
Wookies are mostly known for their excellent ability to rip limbs from people. I'm not sure what else you were expecting. They also help mirror the pure melee squad Empire has.
I've always looked at Legion, but I'm just not interested in OT conflict. It's always been more about the heroes and their personal arcs, and whilst I like that in the films, I don't want to recreate that on tabletop.
Clone Wars has the scope to be larger conflicts, with more freedom and plus, Clones are just awesome. As for Droids, there's plenty of room for both organic Seperatist commanders (Lok Durd, Wat Tambor, Admiral Trench), as well as more personalised Droid (Tactical Droid like Kalani, Commando Droids, Magnaguard, etc etc). Plus, you could get Maul, Grevious, and Darth Jar Jar leading the Seperatists!
zend wrote: Not a fan of the wookies being close range specialists, but I dig the models.
Wookies are mostly known for their excellent ability to rip limbs from people. I'm not sure what else you were expecting. They also help mirror the pure melee squad Empire has.
I wasn't expecting Wookies besides Chewie at all, because Clone Wars era content hadn't been announced yet. I would've expected them to come with Clone Wars stuff as a supplement to the Clones and possibly even be a mini faction complete with a trooper choice, a commander, and a support vehicle since it would be very easy for FFG to do that just with what's shown in RoTS. I also really like the Wookies bowcaster and wanted a squad full of them, but I just remembered it's considered a heavy weapon in most media so it makes sense that you cant have a full squad of them.
It looks like theyre going to be highly resistant to the effects of suppression though, so it will be fun to run them across the board with Luke or eventually Yoda.
Yodhrin wrote: Again - people can keep pretending all they like, but the Clone Wars was not somehow more of a war than the Galactic Civil War.
Most likely because the rest of the GCW is mostly through the books and expanded universe when it comes to actual battles. Clone Wars is also much more aesthetically pleasing as a war because the sides are rather cohesive rather then grabbing units across several planetary fights and putting them together as they've been doing thus far.
Not to mention that aside from a few battles here and there the Rebellion was mostly guerilla tactics and hit and runs, as overall the military might of the Empire once it found locations tended to break them and their bases like a box of twigs.
Yodhrin wrote: Again - people can keep pretending all they like, but the Clone Wars was not somehow more of a war than the Galactic Civil War.
It was demonstrably more of a war. We've seen it. In great detail.
And you're demonstrably wrong, as I've pointed out several times. You can't just arbitrarily dismiss all the material out there that shows the GCW was a far broader conflict than was shown on screen.
To be fair, George Lucas originally wanted to show much larger conflicts in the original trilogy but couldn't because time and money constraints. We were supposed to get a full army of Wookies, not ewoks.
People forget that the main group of rebels that we see in the OT weren't the only group in action. There were other rebel cells throughout the Galaxy.
That's actually one of the things that piss me off about the new trilogy. They act like the resistance we see is all that's left despite there being a scene where they call for help from their allies in other systems. Rather than having their allies ignore the call out of fear, they should've utilized the now forgotten Knights of Ren by having the resistance's allies respond saying they can't help because they're engaged with some unknown dark Jedi and other first order forces. Boom, instant fix to some of the gaping plot holes in the gakky writing, but this is an off topic rant so...
How do you guys think they'll handle Jedi from CW era? A couple uniques like Yoda and then a generic profile for other Masters? I'd like models for Shaak Ti and Kit Fisto, but they're not likely.
I'd assume the first three commanders will be Yoda, Obi Wan, Anakin, with Ahsoka as the Operative.
I kind of expected these support models to be their chance to add R2 and 3PO. I suppose that'll be later. The Imperial Officer art is fantastic. I forgot that that means I need to expect the mini to be disappointing. Still, cool pack. Interesting that the generic officer can be taken on its own or added to a unit. I'll be very curious to see how the rules actually work for the latter; since this is as far as I can tell, the first time we've seen a model with a different defensive statline added to a unit. Officer as a commander feels a little similar to Veers at a discount. Not sure I'm super excited by that.
Yodhrin wrote: Again - people can keep pretending all they like, but the Clone Wars was not somehow more of a war than the Galactic Civil War.
It was demonstrably more of a war. We've seen it. In great detail.
And you're demonstrably wrong, as I've pointed out several times. You can't just arbitrarily dismiss all the material out there that shows the GCW was a far broader conflict than was shown on screen.
People cant arbitrarily dismiss alot of things, that doenst stop them.
Damn, Clone Wars content will be really tempting. Especially if there is a separate starter box. I wonder if any of the models will pull double duty for both eras? The Wookies would certainly fit with the Republic forces.
Edit - Mandalorian models could be used for all four and any future Merc/Scum faction.
Those new sculpts are really hit/miss for me. I'm pretty sure that imperial officer is meant to be female, it just didn't translate at all onto the sculpt very well, just like Leia.
Interest in this game seems to have died off a bit in my area. Clone Wars stuff sounds kind of cool but everybody I know in my personal life regards the prequels poorly and the interest in that stuff seems minimal. I do think the clone wars battles seen in the movies are more fitting for the type of gameplay this game presents though.
Yodhrin wrote: Again - people can keep pretending all they like, but the Clone Wars was not somehow more of a war than the Galactic Civil War.
It was demonstrably more of a war. We've seen it. In great detail.
And you're demonstrably wrong, as I've pointed out several times. You can't just arbitrarily dismiss all the material out there that shows the GCW was a far broader conflict than was shown on screen.
The real problem is that aside from the original trilogy, all the other material to show the Galactic Civil War as a full-on conflict have basically been taken out of canon.
Yodhrin wrote: Again - people can keep pretending all they like, but the Clone Wars was not somehow more of a war than the Galactic Civil War.
It was demonstrably more of a war. We've seen it. In great detail.
And you're demonstrably wrong, as I've pointed out several times. You can't just arbitrarily dismiss all the material out there that shows the GCW was a far broader conflict than was shown on screen.
The real problem is that aside from the original trilogy, all the other material to show the Galactic Civil War as a full-on conflict have basically been taken out of canon.
Apart from the nuCanon novels. And the nuCanon comic book series'. And the nuCanon videogames. There's plenty of canon material demonstrating the Rebellion as a much larger entity than strictly what was shown onscreen in the OT, and the conflict between them and the Empire as being galaxy-wide and involving multiple simultaneous actions just like the Clone Wars. The Alliance didn't match the Empire being-for-being in terms of numbers, and they obviously didn't have the same level of strategic support, but to argue a large, well-organised, well-funded insurgency battling a superior occupying force using whatever tactics and equipment work in any given situation somehow doesn't count as a "proper" war as some have is just sheer farce.
LunarSol wrote: I feel like "shut up and take my money" is started to become "no, seriously; just give me something to spend money on". :(
Yeah. A lot of the sculpts are on the poor side now, and there's always so much delay in waves that it's almost a struggle to keep FFG games alive in a community.
I gotta say, sculpts-notwithstanding I'm impressed with the variety available so far. I'm viewing this from a "should I collect Star Wars minis and use my own rules or someone elses..." though, not even vaguely considering using Legion rules. No interest in an FFG style game.
But someone doing their own Star Wars game or skirmish should be pretty happy right now.
the game has been out for 5 months and I think that for a company like FFG they have done a good job getting out units, being well balanced and a good pace.
LunarSol wrote: I feel like "shut up and take my money" is started to become "no, seriously; just give me something to spend money on". :(
Yeah. A lot of the sculpts are on the poor side now, and there's always so much delay in waves that it's almost a struggle to keep FFG games alive in a community.
I am also disappointed at the apparent drop in sculpt quality and (seeming) scale inconsistencies with the newer figures. I am definitely in a "wait and try to see them in the flesh" mode whereas before it was an automatic purchase.
If they can't get their act together in those areas, then I will personally be giving up on Star Wars wargaming. At least in a commercial sense. I do have zBrush and a couple 3d printers...
Weirdly it seems that people who went to GenCon and picked up Han early are saying that the sculpt is actually fine? It seems bizarre for FFG's official preview model to be so weird, but it's good to hear that it'll look better in person.
Here's a picture from Discord user "PCGamerPirate" - the resemblance is IMO very clear despite this being a less technically sophisticated paint job than what FFG was showing us!
The problem is they first showed a pretty basic paintjob where some combination of lighting, angle, and paint colour conspired to make the model look like it had a ham with a toupe for a head. When the reaction to that was really negative, they had a more elaborate job done on the model, but while that made it look less like a ham, it didn't make it look very much like Han Solo.
If you look at "naked" pics of the model, it's actually not a bad likeness.
Well, he doesn't look as shockingly bad as I first thought from Fantasy Flight's official announcement picture.
Going to be interesting how the generic Imperial Commander turns out, then. Considering at least some of us aren't sure if that's a dude or a chick like on the box art...
At least it looks like organic parts are sculpted well enough and the problem is with the paint job. It could be way, way worse.
Yeah, I have no idea what's going on with their paint jobs. Every time I see models in person done by other people, not like top tier painters or anything, the models look way better.
Geifer wrote: Well, he doesn't look as shockingly bad as I first thought from Fantasy Flight's official announcement picture.
Going to be interesting how the generic Imperial Commander turns out, then. Considering at least some of us aren't sure if that's a dude or a chick like on the box art...
At least it looks like organic parts are sculpted well enough and the problem is with the paint job. It could be way, way worse.
IIRC someone who was at GenCon said the generic Imperial Officer is female and sculpted to look like Governor Pryce from Rebels:
And yeah it's really bizarre how... not awesome some of the official paint jobs are. Part of me wonders whether it's intentional to try and portray an achievable product for a more average hobbyist, but their revised Han paintjob was technically quite advanced aside from the bad face. That said, I'd rather have a good miniature and a bad official paint job than a bad miniature that looks nice on the box...
Kingsley wrote: Weirdly it seems that people who went to GenCon and picked up Han early are saying that the sculpt is actually fine? It seems bizarre for FFG's official preview model to be so weird, but it's good to hear that it'll look better in person.
Here's a picture from Discord user "PCGamerPirate" - the resemblance is IMO very clear despite this being a less technically sophisticated paint job than what FFG was showing us!
Spoiler:
Wow...they really did toggle on big head mode for Han with that sculpt.
barnacle111 wrote: How does Star wars scale against 40k? Thinking if some conversions..
Now that I've watched Jyn spin for a couple of minutes I can answer this.
A Stormtrooper is about as tall as a Primaris. A Rebel Fleet Trooper is about half a head shorter.
Legion models have similarly heroic proportions as 40k models, so should fit stylistically reasonably well.
Unlike Cadians, Legion models were sculpted by someone with a basic understanding of human anatomy.
Legion models usually come in very few parts, so you need to do some cutting and have limited poses. On the bright side, that hardened PVC stuff they're made of is easy to work with.
barnacle111 wrote: How does Star wars scale against 40k? Thinking if some conversions..
Now that I've watched Jyn spin for a couple of minutes I can answer this.
A Stormtrooper is about as tall as a Primaris. A Rebel Fleet Trooper is about half a head shorter.
Legion models have similarly heroic proportions as 40k models, so should fit stylistically reasonably well.
Unlike Cadians, Legion models were sculpted by someone with a basic understanding of human anatomy.
Legion models usually come in very few parts, so you need to do some cutting and have limited poses. On the bright side, that hardened PVC stuff they're made of is easy to work with.
Dakka's own Agis (AAN) posted this on the FFG forums back in March
Jyn and her crew are must buys for me. Really hoping for more Rogue One goodies (Cassian, K-2SO, Krennic and Shoretroopers, Saw Gerra and his crew, etc)
So 2 things. 1 to the people that are complying about the release pace. FFG has released something and the majority of the months multiple things every month since the game came out. So it has had a solid and better than average release rate. Yes it’s not GW speed but come on no one releases things at that pace. 2 the next release for for the imps will has shown to be death troopers and Krentic. All and all the game is really fun and well balanced. If you are on the fence get in. They are going to continue this release pace for at least till March/April as the the first 12 month of releases was locked in prior to the game shipping. Things got backed up by 1 month to due to out paced demand and rushed reprints. Then at some point this year Clones wars will be coming out adding a 3,4 faction. So get in have fun and let’s see the great stuff that will come out.
griffen127 wrote: So 2 things. 1 to the people that are complying about the release pace. FFG has released something and the majority of the months multiple things every month since the game came out. So it has had a solid and better than average release rate. Yes it’s not GW speed but come on no one releases things at that pace. 2 the next release for for the imps will has shown to be death troopers and Krentic. All and all the game is really fun and well balanced. If you are on the fence get in. They are going to continue this release pace for at least till March/April as the the first 12 month of releases was locked in prior to the game shipping. Things got backed up by 1 month to due to out paced demand and rushed reprints. Then at some point this year Clones wars will be coming out adding a 3,4 faction. So get in have fun and let’s see the great stuff that will come out.
Huh Death troopers, hmm do I wait to get Xmas out of the way or try to sneak the game in to the house without the wife spotting it.
griffen127 wrote: So 2 things. 1 to the people that are complying about the release pace. FFG has released something and the majority of the months multiple things every month since the game came out. So it has had a solid and better than average release rate. Yes it’s not GW speed but come on no one releases things at that pace. 2 the next release for for the imps will has shown to be death troopers and Krentic. All and all the game is really fun and well balanced. If you are on the fence get in. They are going to continue this release pace for at least till March/April as the the first 12 month of releases was locked in prior to the game shipping. Things got backed up by 1 month to due to out paced demand and rushed reprints. Then at some point this year Clones wars will be coming out adding a 3,4 faction. So get in have fun and let’s see the great stuff that will come out.
Huh Death troopers, hmm do I wait to get Xmas out of the way or try to sneak the game in to the house without the wife spotting it.
I would definitely try to get the core set while it's really cheap this week.
Amazon UK has the core set at 28% discount, Wayland has 30% - I ordered several 'in stock' expansions from Wayland on Sunday, they all turned up yesterday (Friday) - 30% off with free postage (UK) so pretty happy - until the wife nabbed them as they are Christmas presents for me...
griffen127 wrote: So 2 things. 1 to the people that are complying about the release pace. FFG has released something and the majority of the months multiple things every month since the game came out.
I think the big mistake has been the parallel releases not coming out in parallel. They did this:
Early May: Imperial
Late May: Rebel
June: Barricades
July: Objectives
August: Rebel
September: Imperial
October: Turrets for both
November: Imperial
It created a 5 month gap in Imperial releases shortly after launch. I think the other problem is just that due to the length of time they announce things, for most of the game's existence there has been more stuff "spoiled" than there were options to play the game. Before the Sept releases, Imperials had 6 unit options available, but FFG had announced another 6 releases. It created a sense in a lot of people I know that the game wasn't really "out" yet and certainly has the problem that everyone had played all the options to death before there was any real variety to work with.
griffen127 wrote: So 2 things. 1 to the people that are complying about the release pace. FFG has released something and the majority of the months multiple things every month since the game came out.
I think the big mistake has been the parallel releases not coming out in parallel. They did this:
Early May: Imperial
Late May: Rebel
June: Barricades
July: Objectives
August: Rebel
September: Imperial
October: Turrets for both
November: Imperial
It created a 5 month gap in Imperial releases shortly after launch. I think the other problem is just that due to the length of time they announce things, for most of the game's existence there has been more stuff "spoiled" than there were options to play the game. Before the Sept releases, Imperials had 6 unit options available, but FFG had announced another 6 releases. It created a sense in a lot of people I know that the game wasn't really "out" yet and certainly has the problem that everyone had played all the options to death before there was any real variety to work with.
I agree I am getting pretty sick of doing preorders they are taking forever... SW legions, GoT A Song of Ice and Fire, Batman, and Fallout (massive delays here). There is no real benefit of preordering and you definately don't get the product any sooner just have your money tied up for months at a time.
I like the Rogue One expansions a lot - I was rather lukewarm on the movie, but at least it felt like Star Wars and the models feel like they belong on the battlefield (unlike the Emperor and his guards). I'm rather lukewarm on the game too, but another year's worth of expansions and it might have enough variety of content to support a playerbase.
angel of death 007 wrote: More nice stuff, just wish they had more control over preorder and actual release times.
FFG usually announces its products about 3 months before they become available. I'm not sure what the exact timing is, but I'd wager it has something to do with when production begins (it takes about 6 weeks on the boat, though the boat is frequently late, and an extra week to ship to the stores).
I think a 3 month lead time on announcing new products is too long for miniature games - the hype dies down rather quickly, giving other games a chance to scoot in and steal attention. Like, I was super pumped about RuneWars expansions, but since being announced, I've only played the game once and... hey that Blackstone Fortress sure is shiny...
It's fine for board games and their expansions though. It's just that the miniature games have such insignificant affects on the game. A new unit barely changes the game, whereas something like a Runebound (RIP ) expansion gives you a new playable character, some new encounter cards, a new skill set, a new set of equipment cards and tokens, and a new scenario.
Stunning...but I still don't understand why FFG are going with the whole hollow-socket thing for eyes in bare-headed infantry. Their molds are clearly capable of reproducing an actual eyeball in those sockets, and it's not like it being there would make it harder to do the old base>drybrush>wash routine for a passable tabletop model.
angel of death 007 wrote: More nice stuff, just wish they had more control over preorder and actual release times.
They’re actually very consistent they just announce stuff way way ahead of release. They reliably release things about 4 months after announcing which means we can probably expect these in April.
Really excited for these but it does little to fix the games biggest issue of people only wanting to play Empire.
I watched an unboxing on youtube of the wookie warriors and I was a bit surprised at the lack of detail on certain parts of the models compared with the Chewbacca one both in terms of less sculpted detail and possibly poor mold design/filling/casting. What material are the FFG Legions models made of?
LunarSol wrote: Yup. Essentially boardgame PVC. There have been some things done in sprue plastic (vehicles mainly) but most everything has been PVC.
Have they? I've only got the Stormtrooper set but they're much closer to sprue plastic/HIPS. Certainly much firmer that typical board game pvc (much much better than Imperial Assault and the usual FFG stuff). Held the detail fairly well (though I've seen the odd 'droopy' lightsaber here and there.
If later sets are a softer material that's pretty disappointing.
PVC has a variety of material quality of different levels of detail and firmness. The initial stuff seems like it was a little nicer; still not CMON or Steamforge's quality, but nicer. It was definitely still PVC though.
Sprue plastic has some significant limitations you don't see on the stormtrooper models. Notably, you cannot really do the peg and socket arm assembly in HIPS. I'm pretty sure the only things that have been in HIPS are the AT-ST, Snowspeeder, AT-RT and Speeder Bikes, with the riders for the latter two still being PVC.
The models are really fine for the game, particularly on the Imperial side where there are fewer faces to worry about. They could certainly be better, but it's nice having a game at this scale that has really durable models.
Thanks Albertorius and all for the PVC info. This is the video I was referring to. He starts comparing my favorite sculpt in the box to Chewie at about the 3 minute mark. It seems like they did the full effort on Chewie but then both sculpted thicker details and the mould layout lead to shallower filling (maybe of undercuts?) on top of that. Either way, it's edging towards the old WOTC wookie prepaint level of detail rather than what I expect of modern multipiece plastics. They're still better than the prepaints but their Chewie shows what I'd expect them all to be at (and it's not like Chewie is some masterpiece mini of the year but rather just a well done sculpt/fig). YMMV. They're still nice poses though.
What’s the vehicle scale like in here then chaps. Looking to pick legion up in the new year and have the old wizards of the coast imperial AT-AT walker sat in its box. Thinking it might get some use, even just as a theme piece.
xKillGorex wrote: What’s the vehicle scale like in here then chaps. Looking to pick legion up in the new year and have the old wizards of the coast imperial AT-AT walker sat in its box. Thinking it might get some use, even just as a theme piece.
The game's scale is around 1:47. Unfortunately, that limits your options a lot unless you can tolerate a *lot* of scale variance. So far the only things I've found that match Legion are the Revell "1:65"(actually almost bang-on 1:47, but Revell have a flexible relationship with scale in their non-historical ranges) TIE Fighter(sometimes also tagged as "Anniversary Edition"), the old AMT/ERTL A-Wing fighter(accurately scaled to the RoTJ screen appearance), the Bandai 1:48 "Moving Edition" X-Wing fighter and the old Fine Molds 1:48 X-Wing(the latter is more accurately scaled to Legion based on the new canon numbers from the Rogue One rescaling, but the difference isn't huge), the 1:48 Hasbro/Walmart limited run Millennium Falcon(good luck finding one for a reasonable price), and the old AMT Naboo N-1 Starfighter.
Also, be careful since a lot of kits & toys are advertised as being a certain size or scale, but aren't, or were but based on old non-canon numbers. Good example are the old AMT/ERTL TIE Fighters and Interceptors, which are listed at 1:51 scale so shouldn't be that bad...except they're 1:51 scale based on the old teeny-weeny numbers from the WEG RPGs, and are near enough half the size of the in-scale Revell TIE Fighter mentioned above. If you want stuff to be in-scale, always find out the "real" size of the vehicle and then try and look up a measurement of the kit/toy to see if it matches up - an AT-AT "should" be ~426mm long and ~479mm tall.
Of course, you might not give a gak to anywhere near that degree and just want it to look kinda OK, which is probably healthier
Tank looks kind of crummy anyway. Transported units taking double damage seems like something that's not going to get used, but I'll be curious to see how the whole thing plays out. Pivot on oval base is also a curiosity. I've kind of decided to stop on the game now that I've got the iconic content. I really like it, but it seems like there's zero incentive to play Rebels, making it an unfortunately one faction game.
Imperials get “all the cool toys”, the rebels get has been or garage modified equipment that tends to fall apart at the mere sight of imperial weaponry.
I thought the imp tank from Rogue One was a repulsor? And I would have much rathered the APC from Rebels/Sears (at least, that was where I got mine from back in ‘77-‘78) - or the tank from the first round of Star Wars Battlefront.
Just by looking at the rebel speeder you can tell they are already reaching a bit when it comes to expanding the rebels. Both expansions do look good though. I bought the starter set to this game but it never took off and my interest waned. It's too much of a challenge to find players, whereas GW games I could get pickup games on short notice.
The clone wars as a setting is far more ideal for a game like this. It was more widespread, a lot more battles of substance were fought and at a larger scale etc. And on top of that i'm warming up to the prequels after seeing the last few disney SW movies.
Though I might pick up a box of the death troopers just cause they are one of the better designs to come out of the disney films.
I keep telling people id love to play this game whenever they do Clone Wars. Its a really easy and fun game, I just dont care for the Galactic Civil War era.
They have seemed to come off second best in all the releases, no idea as to the actual gameplay side of the game but just looking at the models they are no where near as appealing as the Imperial side.
Going to be interesting to see where they go with the prequel stuff, even within the two factions there is a lot of variance as to what is shown on screen. I hope they try to branch out into some of that sooner than later rather than just droids v clones.
about proving to 
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) expansion gives you a new playable character, some new encounter cards, a new skill set, a new set of equipment cards and tokens, and a new scenario.
