The real issue at the end of the day is that the actual game system for Robotech RPG Tactics is not really all that great. And if PB would actually put some work in they could have been working with the players to refine it and release a solid 2.0 ruleset that *might* just revive the game a bit.
Yeah all of us are pissed at the Wave 2 fiasco but lets be honest here there are many game companies out there that are or were successful while treating their customers like crap. The difference is that their games were actually good so people tolerated the company who made the game.
The only way I *ever* see us getting Wave 2 would be is the game picked up a bit and actually began selling again so that PB would have some incentive to expand the game a bit and thus make the Wave 2 models. But since they seem utterly uninterested in trying to do any kind of 2.0 ruleset that will likely never happen.
I'm just waiting until 2021 and hoping that every company that has ever been involved in the US licensing of Robotech loses their rights to it because it has been treated like gak for over 20 years now.
The rules are not keeping people from buying the game, it is the near certainty that nothing further is coming*. Nobody wants to invest in an unfinished line of IP related miniatures.
*I almost wrote "uncertainty of future releases", but who would I be kidding at this point?
I'm confident that the pallets of RRT in that photo are all the pallets in the warehouse. I don't think there are more lurking out of frame. Not because I have a positive opinion of Kevin's business acumen... quite the opposite. I'm sure the rest of the warehouse is chock full of pallets of unsold overstocked product. I just think the pallets are all of Rifts and Robotech RPG books he printed way too many copies of. I'm sure if one were to look hard enough, one could find an entire unopened pallet of Revised Recon books from back in 1986 in that place.
n815e wrote: The rules are not keeping people from buying the game, it is the near certainty that nothing further is coming*. Nobody wants to invest in an unfinished line of IP related miniatures.
*I almost wrote "uncertainty of future releases", but who would I be kidding at this point?
It's the rules and models. Because if people buy it more will come. The rules are pants and the models due to the ridiculous design decisions difficult to put together. There would be future releases if people suddenly started buying the current releases for Robotech RPG Tactics but with a poor rule set and models that require a magnifying glass and tweezers to assemble that won't likely happen. I will argue though that a good rule set will make people buy models that are difficult to assemble, there have been a couple of examples of that in recent years.
vonjankmon wrote: The real issue at the end of the day is that the actual game system for Robotech RPG Tactics is not really all that great. And if PB would actually put some work in they could have been working with the players to refine it and release a solid 2.0 ruleset that *might* just revive the game a bit.
A couple thoughts on this ... There is some debate on who actually wrote the rules. There is some rather interesting circumstantial evidence that says Ninja Division did all the grunt work and PB parachuted their vision of the rules in to make it what it is right now. Ninja Division had a vision of what this game was to be, and if you have followed the tales of the paragon of hubris that is Kevin Siembieda, it didn't comply with his vision and required him to re-write what he thought it to be. Expecting version 2.0 would only occur if another company buys the IP, which won't happen until after 2021. I doubt you, or anyone, is willing to hold their breath.
Yeah all of us are pissed at the Wave 2 fiasco but lets be honest here there are many game companies out there that are or were successful while treating their customers like crap. The difference is that their games were actually good so people tolerated the company who made the game.
This may be taken as trolling, but I am not meaning it to be so. I nominate this statement for the understatement of the decade. Bravo, Sir. I agree with what you are saying, but I have yet to run across a company that treats its customers like crap and are still in operation. I get experience, like mileage, may vary. But I hardly call PB a successful company. A company that breaks even is not successful, its a company that's doing the bare minimum to justify the space they occupy. PB could be a lot more if it weren't for the walking ego running it.
The only way I *ever* see us getting Wave 2 would be is the game picked up a bit and actually began selling again so that PB would have some incentive to expand the game a bit and thus make the Wave 2 models. But since they seem utterly uninterested in trying to do any kind of 2.0 ruleset that will likely never happen.
A the vicious circle that is a miniature game company. If you want it to sell, you have to produce the figures in order for it to sell. Again, there is very damning circumstantial evidence that everything was in place and ready to go. However PB parachuted in and made some really bad decisions contrary to advice given to them from Ninja Division. PB did not listen and they made rather bad decisions. The fact they have been sitting on getting Wave 2 manufactured and released for so long is the very reason why this game is dead in the first place. Word of mouth is just as potent. Had PB not treated Ninja Division like dirt (likely case) we'd see a 2.0 Ruleset. But again, we're dealing with the fragile hubris and raging ego that is Kevin "I AM PALLADIUM" Siembieda.
I'm just waiting until 2021 and hoping that every company that has ever been involved in the US licensing of Robotech loses their rights to it because it has been treated like gak for over 20 years now.
If I understand the case that has made the rounds correctly, the real question is whether Tatsunoko will be willing to renew the American distribution license with Harmony Gold after the recent case. I'd like to think that Tatsunoko will not renew as Harmony Gold has done everything under their power to stifle distribution Macross in the US. What I am waiting to see is if Harmony Gold has the stones to sue Sony over the languishing Robotech movie that seems to go in and out of development hell in Hollywood. At that point it will become a game of who has the better lawyer, and that would be on Sony.
Yeah, I remember a Beasts of War podcast where Carmen essentially called the initial rules "a dumpster fire" and was pulled in to fix them. Seeing his gRifts "demo", I no longer believe that for a second. *I* could write better rules, and I suck at rules design.
As to @vonjankmon's comments, I believe in most cases that customers don't have to deal with the manufacturer - a product is presented any you have the option to buy it or leave it. If it's a bad product, you don't get repeat business. If it's good, people will look for future product, but they aren't bound to the manufacturer if nothing further manifests. Unfortunately in our case, we pre-bought this stuff so it's not so easy to walk away from the investment (or at least, it's not for me). We're still waiting for the rest of never-to-be-produced product and we can't get the company to be arsed to admit defeat, even though it would be the moral thing to do because it'd put these morons out of business. And who in their right mind would hire them on somewhere else?
As far as rules and models go, I've mostly given up. A mix of Savage Worlds and X-Wing mash-up would be my go-to for a 2.0 version of the Robotech RPG, and flat-up X-Wing for a tabletop game.
I'm just waiting now for 2021 to roll around, hoping that HG (& PB) losing this license means I can get legal English dubbed versions of Macross Zero, Frontier and the other animes that we've been denied because of this IP farce.
Your comment about those companies not being in business anymore is basically spot on Seawolf. GW is likely the only exception to that and they tend to correct after a while and treat their customers better once things start falling apart for them, they're just big enough to take that temporary hit while companies like Spartan are not. But many of those companies did enjoy success for a little while before the players just got sick of it, I think PB's problem in the case of Robotech is that they treated us like gak right out of the gate.
I very much doubt that Tatsunoko will renew HG's license, since the reason that we know it expires in 2021 was a result of legal documents released after Tatsunoko basically tried to sue HG into giving them more royalties. Tatsunoko lost that arbitration so I doubt the relationship between those two companies is good.
And I am dying for a legal english dub of Macross Frontier Stormonu. Macross Delta also, even though it was not as good as Frontier was.
Merijeek wrote: Hasn't it been blatantly stated before the ND wrote the rules, and then PB basically threw it "all" out and "redid it from scratch"?
Redone by the fantastic Mr. Carmen?
There is a lot of assumptions on what is really going on with RRT, but with things like this its really sad, we all know there is a lot of truth to it.
How many times have we heard in the past of armature authors thought they would get their names in lights for writing a book for Palladium.
Only to find out that Kevin had rewrote the whole book in to his "own" words. Moving the once author to a supporting role or completely removing
the persons name from it.
The longer this goes on the more of nuggets of truth comes out because it\s impossible to keep everything well hidden.. Someone will
say something not realizing what they are actually saying. Thanks NMI
Where would the game be if they used everything that ND wanted.. We would have got simpler rules (simpler is sometimes better) Zombicide
type models, but we would have not had to deal with waiting on two waves. but this is a pipe dream now.. nothing is going to change it now.
Now we all know that Kevin is happy to have a life time stock of the game in his warehouse also happy to sale 200 copies of a book release.
But I live in a fly over state and just a ruff guess that we have around 40 game stores in my state alone. Multiply that times the number of states.
So we have at least 2000 possible retail outlets in the united states alone and they are not even in the 10% range of getting a single book in each store..
How do you expect to sale any kind of product if you can not convenience retailers to stock your products... Good Job Kevin..
I don't want to come off as completely bashing Palladium (though I will make an exception for Kevin Siembieda), because its likely there are decent people working there. However this has been a space opera of errors that compounds itself as it goes along.
Unfortunately Scott is now the subject of a great deal of wrath from the community. I don't think he deserves all of it, but he is continuing a party line that backers are no longer interested in hearing so he deserves to get a measure of the grief directed at Kevin.
Because of this Kickstarter I am extremely hesitant about backing anything out there of interest. I realize I shouldn't paint other companies with the same brush as I am with Palladium. However a Kickstarter should not be a means for a company to get 'free' financing while screwing their donors in the process.
Genoside07 wrote: [
So we have at least 2000 possible retail outlets in the united states alone and they are not even in the 10% range of getting a single book in each store..
How do you expect to sale any kind of product if you can not convenience retailers to stock your products... Good Job Kevin..
Yes, BUT, what you're forgetting is that Palladium Books makes more money on each book sold if it's sold directly by PB - and then they get to tack on some exorbitant shipping!
You just don't understand the genius of Kevin! Why sell a thousand books at a $15 profit each when you can sell 150 at $20 profit each!?!! There's a reason you don't own an RPG business that's the envy of its entire industry!!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
KTG17 wrote: Man, I can't believe you all are still talking about this.
Why wouldn't we? We're reliably informed on a bi-weekly basis that this product is still coming. We're just excited about it!
Scott even uses the PB "hope": 'hopefully we'll hear something', 'we hope to have this done', 'our hopes are that we'll have this', 'we hoped to have completed', 'here's to hoping you all go away', etc.
A nice way to get people to believe that they are onto something and will have information.
With this many backers all being denied product, and this much salt in everyone's bloodstream about it, I'm wondering why there hasn't been a class action lawsuit directed at PB to get this mess settled? I mean, yeah, it totally isn't worth it for one or two people to sue PB, but a class action suit would band everyone together into a juggernaut of "Feth You Kevin Siembieda" that could almost certainly overrun whatever pro bono lawyer PB manages to scrape up to put in front of a judge.
I mean, I'm not a part of this KS. I only found out about it after the fact. So you can feel free to ignore my opinions/suggestions, since I don't really have a dog in this fight. But I think it is clear that the only way to get any actual action from PB on this is to hit them with legal action. True, there probably isn't any money to be won here (this is PB we're talking about) but a lawsuit would force Kevin to open the books in a court of law and the contents would be a matter of record. Everyone would know with absolute certainty what the status of RRT is, and Kevin couldn't excuse his way out of it.
Heck, a good lawyer may rope Harmony Gold in on the side of the plaintiffs, on the grounds that PB has done irreparable damage to the Robotech IP through their ham-fisted mismanagement of the license. That could result in some other company getting the Robotech license before it dies in 2021.
Seriously, if anybody knows a lawyer, they might want to ask about the viability of starting a class-action lawsuit.
I reached out to the Michigan AG, BBB and three firms that specialized in class-action suits. Despite the $1.4M associated with the KS, nobody was interested, sadly.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, and HG is enabling these crooks - they've been asked point blank about PB's shoddy handling and on-camera, they didn't care one whit, even believing PB was doing a great job.
KTG17 wrote: Man, I can't believe you all are still talking about this.
My ire for someone basically "stealing" a few hundred bucks is not readily let go.
Yes, I am that petty.
I make myself feel better by convincing myself I am doing a public service of warning people off from them.
It is a little correct.
I find it all devolves into just not believing our society can allow this rather transparent "con" to continue or how on god's green earth these turkeys stay in business.
squidhills wrote: With this many backers all being denied product, and this much salt in everyone's bloodstream about it, I'm wondering why there hasn't been a class action lawsuit directed at PB to get this mess settled? I mean, yeah, it totally isn't worth it for one or two people to sue PB, but a class action suit would band everyone together into a juggernaut of "Feth You Kevin Siembieda" that could almost certainly overrun whatever pro bono lawyer PB manages to scrape up to put in front of a judge.
I mean, I'm not a part of this KS. I only found out about it after the fact. So you can feel free to ignore my opinions/suggestions, since I don't really have a dog in this fight. But I think it is clear that the only way to get any actual action from PB on this is to hit them with legal action. True, there probably isn't any money to be won here (this is PB we're talking about) but a lawsuit would force Kevin to open the books in a court of law and the contents would be a matter of record. Everyone would know with absolute certainty what the status of RRT is, and Kevin couldn't excuse his way out of it.
Heck, a good lawyer may rope Harmony Gold in on the side of the plaintiffs, on the grounds that PB has done irreparable damage to the Robotech IP through their ham-fisted mismanagement of the license. That could result in some other company getting the Robotech license before it dies in 2021.
Seriously, if anybody knows a lawyer, they might want to ask about the viability of starting a class-action lawsuit.
The problem with a class action suit is that I can't see that PB have the money to pay out on it. It'd mean whoever footed the bill for the backers would lose out massively. There's very much a 'don't throw good money after bad' factor in this not having happened.
Stormonu wrote: I reached out to the Michigan AG, BBB and three firms that specialized in class-action suits. Despite the $1.4M associated with the KS, nobody was interested, sadly.
Oh, and HG is enabling these crooks - they've been asked point blank about PB's shoddy handling and on-camera, they didn't care one whit, even believing PB was doing a great job.
Well, that explains that. I didn't realize attempts to put together a class action suit had already been made. I also didn't realize that HG had publicly backed PB. Thanks for responding to my post!
Stormonu wrote: I reached out to the Michigan AG, BBB and three firms that specialized in class-action suits. Despite the $1.4M associated with the KS, nobody was interested, sadly.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, and HG is enabling these crooks - they've been asked point blank about PB's shoddy handling and on-camera, they didn't care one whit, even believing PB was doing a great job.
I don't believe this at all... Like any of it... That's my nature (no offense). And it always gives me a evil chuckle when folks mention the BBB. Like what exactly do folks think is going to happen once you've contacted the BBB?
That said, If you did contact three firms... When? and what were the firms? It might be helpful to the folks organizing on Facebook to know that those parties won't be interested... In order to be serious about this people will have to put up money... Attorneys working pro-bono is the stuff of legends (or in the movies)... Also when did you contact? And how did you approach that contact...?
You offered to hire attorney's and/or sought a free consultation and they refused? I mean I haven't known any firm to refuse anything... (though they can be costly) Though many might be put it on the backburner... Outright refuse? Never. This is probably the biggest reason I don't believe you. Refusal and not being able to afford (or be willing to pay) attorneys is two entirely different things...
And since there is video... Of HG discussing this Kickstarter: Got any links?
I'm sure Stormonu can speak for himself, but as the individual amounts owed are likely less than the amount to hire a lawyer (It's not worth spending $500 on a lawyer if you're only owed $500, and aren't guaranteed getting that), he probably was seeking a firm that'd work on contingency, rather than up front actuals. That's different from pro-bono.
And if they don't think PB have the funds to recover their expenses, well... there's no point in them doing so.
There's also the issue I've mentioned several times before, and is a huge hindrance to any lawsuit. That being, while they MAY arguably be in breach of certain consumer laws, the currently are NOT in breach of the Kickstarter Terms and Conditions. As long as they do the song and dance of "working on it", and Kickstarter continue to say that's acceptable, that's a hell of a barrier that a lawfirm would have to breach before they can do anything further.
n815e wrote: Kickstarter is not the arbiter of legal matters and they have already told one backer to seek legal means.
Agreed.
That doesn't change the fact that arguing that Palladium are in breach of contract (arguably the easiest way to get a ruling), when according to the people that wrote the contract that Palladium aren't in breach of said contract, is a hard ask. And will be the first sticking point for lawyers who might consider taking this up on contingency. Further sticking points might be the questionable nature of PB's solvency. Getting a large judgment isn't worth squat if PB can't pay it.
As long as Kickstarter keep to their stance that as long as PB appears to be "working on it", the project hasn't failed, and that as long as the project hasn't failed, it'll be difficult to convince a lawyer (and then a judge), that the project has failed and therefore a refund is owed, getting someone who is interested in taking the case up, is not going to be easy.
n815e wrote: Kickstarter is not the arbiter of legal matters and they have already told one backer to seek legal means.
Agreed.
As long as Kickstarter keep to their stance that as long as PB appears to be "working on it", the project hasn't failed, and that as long as the project hasn't failed, it'll be difficult to convince a lawyer (and then a judge), that the project has failed and therefore a refund is owed, getting someone who is interested in taking the case up, is not going to be easy.
Surely 3-4 years of "getting quotes" cant stand up in court as "working on it", there is no other company out there in this hobby at least that takes that long, you have to just look at what games have come and gone in those 3-4 years since this funded to see how easy it is to "get quotes"
n815e wrote: Kickstarter is not the arbiter of legal matters and they have already told one backer to seek legal means.
Agreed.
As long as Kickstarter keep to their stance that as long as PB appears to be "working on it", the project hasn't failed, and that as long as the project hasn't failed, it'll be difficult to convince a lawyer (and then a judge), that the project has failed and therefore a refund is owed, getting someone who is interested in taking the case up, is not going to be easy.
Surely 3-4 years of "getting quotes" cant stand up in court as "working on it", there is no other company out there in this hobby at least that takes that long, you have to just look at what games have come and gone in those 3-4 years since this funded to see how easy it is to "get quotes"
A rational argument absolutely would rule that way. But that's not how the law works. If you sign a contract through an arbitrator that says you only get a refund under certain conditions, and the arbitrator says those conditions aren't yet met, and can show the flimsiest of arguments as to why that is so, I can easily see the chances of winning not being a slam dunk.
It's not a matter of what is right. It's a matter of first convincing a lawyer to take the case, and then having the lawyer they can both win the case, and make enough to be worthwhile, to be worth the risk of putting in time and money in the first place. And I think Kickstarter's stance on this NOT being a breach, is a factor in those calculations.
Yes, I think that liability shield is bs, and would probably collapse if put to the test. But the amount of work needed to do it, is probably more than what most contingency lawyers would be willing to put in. A high priced attourney probably could do it, but that requires a backer putting in significantly more than they would get back. Even the people with large investments (Glovals) would be spending a good percentage of the money they put in, to get any money back. And that assumes that the judge isn't convinced that a motion regarding the liability shield be tested.
I think the circumstances change significantly if Kickstarter acknowledge the RRT Kick has failed. And I think you'll see lawyers more willing to take up the case. That's why I'm personally of the opinion it's the primary sticking point here. But until then, who knows? It's clear that several people have sought out legal recourse, and been met with nothing. And there's only a few reasons why that could be the case. Because as people have pointed out, it's $1.5M, and it's pretty clear that nothing has been done in several years. That SHOULD be a slam dunk. So why else would it not have happened?
n815e wrote: Kickstarter is not the arbiter of legal matters and they have already told one backer to seek legal means.
Agreed.
As long as Kickstarter keep to their stance that as long as PB appears to be "working on it", the project hasn't failed, and that as long as the project hasn't failed, it'll be difficult to convince a lawyer (and then a judge), that the project has failed and therefore a refund is owed, getting someone who is interested in taking the case up, is not going to be easy.
Surely 3-4 years of "getting quotes" cant stand up in court as "working on it", there is no other company out there in this hobby at least that takes that long, you have to just look at what games have come and gone in those 3-4 years since this funded to see how easy it is to "get quotes"
A rational argument absolutely would rule that way. But that's not how the law works. If you sign a contract through an arbitrator that says you only get a refund under certain conditions, and the arbitrator says those conditions aren't yet met, and can show the flimsiest of arguments as to why that is so, I can easily see the chances of winning not being a slam dunk.
It's not a matter of what is right. It's a matter of first convincing a lawyer to take the case, and then having the lawyer they can both win the case, and make enough to be worthwhile, to be worth the risk of putting in time and money in the first place. And I think Kickstarter's stance on this NOT being a breach, is a factor in those calculations.
Yes, I think that liability shield is bs, and would probably collapse if put to the test. But the amount of work needed to do it, is probably more than what most contingency lawyers would be willing to put in. A high priced attourney probably could do it, but that requires a backer putting in significantly more than they would get back. Even the people with large investments (Glovals) would be spending a good percentage of the money they put in, to get any money back. And that assumes that the judge isn't convinced that a motion regarding the liability shield be tested.
I think the circumstances change significantly if Kickstarter acknowledge the RRT Kick has failed. And I think you'll see lawyers more willing to take up the case. That's why I'm personally of the opinion it's the primary sticking point here. But until then, who knows? It's clear that several people have sought out legal recourse, and been met with nothing. And there's only a few reasons why that could be the case. Because as people have pointed out, it's $1.5M, and it's pretty clear that nothing has been done in several years. That SHOULD be a slam dunk. So why else would it not have happened?
Yeah from the outside and not knowing US laws you would have thought it would be an easy slam dunk, it just seems PB are regurgitating the same lines over and over without showing any substance , once reported KS needs to actually look into stuff like this rather than just read the public updates and go by those, is it the fact KS might lose the $150K cut if backers get lawyers involved thats keeping them from saying PB is at fault!
Even if we could get Kick starter to say RRT is a dead project;
Where is Palladium going to get the money for refunds??
I really don't think there is money for anyone.. My thoughts are why
we don't see any work on it, even if they were finished with it, I don't think
there is any money to pay for even the molds.. Why?? because they
over promised and over spent..
Here we are again were Palladium games is standing at the door of bankruptcy.
They been there a few times before but by some miracle was able to level back off.
That's why no Lawyer would go after them, Its like going after a dead beat father
in jail for back child support. You know there is no money there and almost impossible
to get anything from them.
That is why Ninja Division was a major reason I backed the project. They had a decent track
record at the time and was to be doing all the heavy lifting... Then Kevin saw $$$$
Genoside07 wrote: Even if we could get Kick starter to say RRT is a dead project;
Where is Palladium going to get the money for refunds??
I really don't think there is money for anyone.. My thoughts are why
we don't see any work on it, even if they were finished with it, I don't think
there is any money to pay for even the molds.. Why?? because they
over promised and over spent..
Here we are again were Palladium games is standing at the door of bankruptcy.
They been there a few times before but by some miracle was able to level back off.
That's why no Lawyer would go after them, Its like going after a dead beat father
in jail for back child support. You know there is no money there and almost impossible
to get anything from them.
That is why Ninja Division was a major reason I backed the project. They had a decent track
record at the time and was to be doing all the heavy lifting... Then Kevin saw $$$$
This is why I simply said forget it and moved on. No sense stressing on something I cannot change.
Believe or not as you wish. For a while I kept all my correspondence in case I needed it later, but most of it I've gotten rid of now, so I have little physical proof.
I e-mailed PB for a refund (didn't save the e-mail), they denied it.
I contacted KS, they punted to PB.
I contacted the BBB, that was a joke as I learned that not only do they not have any teeth to do anything, companies can simply pay to retain a good rating through them (not that I think PB has any money to stave off the negative reviews I think they still may have).
I sent a complaint to the Michigan AG on 8/19/2015, about the same time Rick had. That's one of the two documents I still have. I've long tossed the response I got, but it basically said that it was between PB and me to iron out the differences.
I sent a complaint to the FTC (for mail fraud) on 12/12/2015, never heard a response.
I then contacted my personal lawyer in these parts (I think it was after the 2-part rant on the KS), but he did not believe that we'd get anything of substance from PB. Throwing good money after bad.
I then reached out to at least two firms that specialized in class-action lawsuits. Each responded negatively that they didn't believe they could recoup an amount that would be worth the case and the KS stipulation of "Working on it" was unlikely they'd win the case. By that point, I was so frustrated I didn't bother to keep the e-mail chain. I mentioned my attempts on one of the earlier pages if you want to look for it.
At this point, I feel like I have exhausted all my avenues for getting justice out of this farce. Next hope is that 2021 might have an effect, but the way things have been (not) going, I'm not counting on it.
Genoside07 wrote: Even if we could get Kick starter to say RRT is a dead project;
Where is Palladium going to get the money for refunds??
The Bad Man in my head tells me I want my money back by any means necessary, even if that means crushing PB into insolvency and forcing anyone that had their hands in the pot to become destitute and homeless.
The Good guy in my head thinks that's a good idea too.
Although he also thinks I should just find something more productive to do.
So I do that.
If I win the Powerball, I will revisit the Bad Man and follow his plan, no matter the loss incurred financially.
If I won the Powerball, there's far more constructive things I'd do with it than throw it down the drain after PB's clowns.
PB's had plenty of opportunity to make this right. The state of this KS has gone from a mere annoyance to a grudge match.
However, I am content with the knowledge that PB is a has-been, it's white knight customer base consists of an aging demographic or rose-tinted players from the nineties. When Kevin passes, his company will collapse and it will be a forgotten footnote in the annals of gaming - of how NOT to run a company.
Let them limp along dreaming false dreams of breaking out of their mediocrity as PB slowly slips again into a death spiral. Let Kevin stay awake at nights wondering how on earth he'll keep his crappy company afloat and spend his days hoping no one will call him on his scams to defraud others with his subpar products.
In the meantime, I'll sleep fine with a clear conscious and dream of the dozen games I have to enjoy playing. I'll just drop in here to poke PB in the ribs and watch them squirm.
Yeah if I won the power ball, I have already promised a buddy that I would find a way for him to meet Sara Jean Underwood.
As the way it's going she maybe 84 years old before this happens..but wish me luck every time you buy a ticket...
But as everyone sees the stench outside of the white knight players , most newer gamer I have met recently don't have a clue who Kevin is or what Rifts is..
They do any checking and end up avoiding the game like a plague. On all the trade sites I frequent and Ebay, Rifts books go for about $5 each
with normal retail is usually $15-$25. That should give anyone a hint on how hot hot hot the game is..
Also with RRT, no gamers from X-wing, War-machine or 40k would dare to invest in it.. Most shops either have already clearance
the game out, but a very few keep the box game around as a bad reminder or just filling shelf space.
Stormonu wrote: Believe or not as you wish. For a while I kept all my correspondence in case I needed it later, but most of it I've gotten rid of now, so I have little physical proof.
I e-mailed PB for a refund (didn't save the e-mail), they denied it.
I contacted KS, they punted to PB.
I contacted the BBB, that was a joke as I learned that not only do they not have any teeth to do anything, companies can simply pay to retain a good rating through them (not that I think PB has any money to stave off the negative reviews I think they still may have).
I sent a complaint to the Michigan AG on 8/19/2015, about the same time Rick had. That's one of the two documents I still have. I've long tossed the response I got, but it basically said that it was between PB and me to iron out the differences.
I sent a complaint to the FTC (for mail fraud) on 12/12/2015, never heard a response.
I then contacted my personal lawyer in these parts (I think it was after the 2-part rant on the KS), but he did not believe that we'd get anything of substance from PB. Throwing good money after bad.
I then reached out to at least two firms that specialized in class-action lawsuits. Each responded negatively that they didn't believe they could recoup an amount that would be worth the case and the KS stipulation of "Working on it" was unlikely they'd win the case. By that point, I was so frustrated I didn't bother to keep the e-mail chain. I mentioned my attempts on one of the earlier pages if you want to look for it.
At this point, I feel like I have exhausted all my avenues for getting justice out of this farce. Next hope is that 2021 might have an effect, but the way things have been (not) going, I'm not counting on it.
As I mentioned earlier... My brain transposed your statement to mean that the lawyers had refused the case... And I got caught up on that "idea." And then put that word to your statement. My bad.
It's irrelevant... but I still don't believe you... For instance let me get this picture straight... You go to two firms... And did a consultation by email? Or you go meet with one or two firms, both of which are uninterested, yet you have email chain... Doesn't make much sense to me. I'm just some random dude on the internet...
Again, what were the names of the firms?
Now, let's say for a moment that what you're saying is true: What is of interest, would be the reasons each firm refused the case. I'm not a lawyer, but I can tell you that any legal council that gave you legal advice based on Kickstarter's own terms and conditions isn't a very good lawyer... Working on it, would be irrelevant to state/federal law at this point (or at any point). And the law is what lawyers do... In other words they wouldn't concerning themselves with what Kickstarter has to say... Maybe you just got bad legal advice?
Genoside07 wrote: Even if we could get Kick starter to say RRT is a dead project;
Where is Palladium going to get the money for refunds??
The Bad Man in my head tells me I want my money back by any means necessary, even if that means crushing PB into insolvency and forcing anyone that had their hands in the pot to become destitute and homeless.
The Good guy in my head thinks that's a good idea too.
Although he also thinks I should just find something more productive to do.
So I do that.
If I win the Powerball, I will revisit the Bad Man and follow his plan, no matter the loss incurred financially.
That what I would do if I won Mega or Powerball . I would not care about the money but just put Kev and PB out of business . DESTROY ALL PB IP.
Well I can understand all of you being upset that you gave them money for products that haven't been delivered, and may never will be, but based on what little I have seen it looks like you might as well cut your losses and move on to more positive things. PB may have stolen your money, but like any other company that does a crappy job, don't go back.
Alpharius wrote: Yeah, that's all well and good if you didn't pledge here at all, but...
...in the meantime, this might not be the thread for you!
I mean, PB is literally doing NOTHING when it comes to this product, so there is NOTHING else to talk about.
Additionally, apathy is Palladium’s biggest friend. If everyone were to go silent, and write off their losses, Palladium wins.
Simply put, I doubt there are more than a handful of backers that would purchase or support any existing/future Palladium projects, at least not until this one delivers. So future sales from backers is mostly relevant. But as it stands, searching for the game mostly brings up negative responses. Meaning it affects their bottom line.
And while that might be seen as self defeating, there's a kind of vigilantism at play. A substantial amount of backers don't believe PB can complete the project. PB have not shown any evidence they can, wither from a financial or just general competency manner. So for some, it's a case of "If I'm screwed, then screw PB".
That might not be the most mature way to handle things, but given how much PB have dicked backers over for three years and counting, it's definitely not unfair to PB. Letting them get away with stiffing backers would not be justice. Even if the response is more schoolyard justice than moral high ground justice.
Cause feth PB and their gakky attitude.
EDIT : And just to be clear, most of the issue is not about the delay. It's about Kevin's attitude and response. The passing of the buck, the throwing under the bus, that Kevin is a genius and his only fault is trusting the wrong people, that backers have already got their value (several people got official responses to that effect), etc etc.
There are many other Kickstarters that have been heavily delayed. But most either communicate well, provide exceptional product, and/or offer refunds. PB are 0 for 3, and treat their backers like morons. It's an insult, and people respond in kind.
Alpharius wrote: Yeah, that's all well and good if you didn't pledge here at all, but...
...in the meantime, this might not be the thread for you!
I mean, PB is literally doing NOTHING when it comes to this product, so there is NOTHING else to talk about.
Additionally, apathy is Palladium’s biggest friend. If everyone were to go silent, and write off their losses, Palladium wins.
Simply put, I doubt there are more than a handful of backers that would purchase or support any existing/future Palladium projects, at least not until this one delivers. So future sales from backers is mostly relevant. But as it stands, searching for the game mostly brings up negative responses. Meaning it affects their bottom line.
And while that might be seen as self defeating, there's a kind of vigilantism at play. A substantial amount of backers don't believe PB can complete the project. PB have not shown any evidence they can, wither from a financial or just general competency manner. So for some, it's a case of "If I'm screwed, then screw PB".
That might not be the most mature way to handle things, but given how much PB have dicked backers over for three years and counting, it's definitely not unfair to PB. Letting them get away with stiffing backers would not be justice. Even if the response is more schoolyard justice than moral high ground justice.
Cause feth PB and their gakky attitude.
EDIT : And just to be clear, most of the issue is not about the delay. It's about Kevin's attitude and response. The passing of the buck, the throwing under the bus, that Kevin is a genius and his only fault is trusting the wrong people, that backers have already got their value (several people got official responses to that effect), etc etc.
There are many other Kickstarters that have been heavily delayed. But most either communicate well, provide exceptional product, and/or offer refunds. PB are 0 for 3, and treat their backers like morons. It's an insult, and people respond in kind.
While I understand the sentiment.....what does the opposite of apathy accomplish? Either way this game is sunk. PB, HG and ND crushed things and have all moved on. Nothing we do will get product into hand. Nothing we do will get our money back.?
Screaming and yelling = Personal feeling of accomplishment but no results. Maybe just maybe get those last few people you say are highly unlikely to support more stuff to go away. I find it highly doubtful this is going to honestly help anyone new at this point and make them think twice.
Just going elsewhere = Spending $ and time on other pursuits and letting PB drag itself down. Not giving Kevin any attention, to him is worse than bad attention. He has nobody to blame then or point fingers to or to try to compare himself too. Hence why Trump often just can't keep his mouth shut at time. That is simply one of the traits of a narcissist.
@Mike, agreed that this shouldn't be the only outlet. And for most it's not. Forar and I have Shadows of Brimstone. Jaymz has his Battletech/Alphastrike. Others I've seen in other forums. If this is your only outlet, then yes, you need to find something that brings you joy. But having an outlet for disdain isn't an unreasonable thing. Especially if you can have fun with it too.
But as to the argument about this game being dead, that's true. But that's not the extent of Kevin's domain. If this Kickstarter was his only business, that'd be one thing. And I could understand people moving on. But his company is more than RRT. And if everyone went dark, he'd ride off into the sunset with that.
And given there's speculation and a reasonable suspicion that PB have used the KS funds to shore up the parent company, and nothing to show that it hasn't (an accounting of where the money has been spent and how much is left isn't an outlandish request, even if it is uncommon), that puts PB in the mix.
Silence benefits Kevin's ability to succeed. And given how he's treated the people who gave him ~$1.5M US, some people object to him being allowed to do that. It might be petty, but it's not unfair.
Morgan Vening wrote: @Mike, agreed that this shouldn't be the only outlet. And for most it's not. Forar and I have Shadows of Brimstone. Jaymz has his Battletech/Alphastrike. Others I've seen in other forums. If this is your only outlet, then yes, you need to find something that brings you joy. But having an outlet for disdain isn't an unreasonable thing. Especially if you can have fun with it too.
But as to the argument about this game being dead, that's true. But that's not the extent of Kevin's domain. If this Kickstarter was his only business, that'd be one thing. And I could understand people moving on. But his company is more than RRT. And if everyone went dark, he'd ride off into the sunset with that.
And given there's speculation and a reasonable suspicion that PB have used the KS funds to shore up the parent company, and nothing to show that it hasn't (an accounting of where the money has been spent and how much is left isn't an outlandish request, even if it is uncommon), that puts PB in the mix.
Silence benefits Kevin's ability to succeed. And given how he's treated the people who gave him ~$1.5M US, some people object to him being allowed to do that. It might be petty, but it's not unfair.
Assuming he really had money to run off with and didn't just screw it all up buying wave one....
Personally, I do not believe there is any backer who is still sat in his mum's basement, wringing his hands muttering about when wave 2 will arrive, while pushing a few RTT pieces around a dropzone map.
More likely, is that most already werei nto other systems or simply moved onto new ones, there are simply too many other great games out there.
What keeps us coming back? Morgan calls it exactly, a almost morbid, juvenile desire to make sure that PB does not get write this off and start up another falsely promised genre buster.
Who knows they might just pull it off by 2021, but deep down you know they will not. What is more likley - I suggest first quarter next year - is Kevin will finally admit failure (albeit it was not down to him since he did his best but those others....blah blah). Refunds , oh yes we can have refunds but as a prorata share of what funds are now left in the KS pot, but not in cash but Robotech bucks - at a favourable rate - that can only be spent on other PB merchandise.
This Thursday marks Scotts second quarter (officially ) as Business Manager and so will his update show real progress. One thing I am confident about is that it will not
Walk away? Nah this is like that scab on your knee you know you shouldn't, but you cannot help picking at it
Alpharius wrote: There's really no harm in people venting here and keeping the subject alive, to some extent.
It probably does more good then harm - for most.
If a KS screwed me out of (x), I'd keep the conversation going until it was really The End.
PB themselves have said to not worry - so might as well keep the conversation going.
And it's not like other conversation gets shut down. If people want to talk about the latest new thing that PB put out for RRT, or their own experience or ideas, it's not like it gets shut down with "Grr! Hate Palladium!". I've had several discussions with people about various aspects of the game and auxiliary aspects. It's just there's a lack of anything new to actually talk about in a positive light.
But as Alpharius says, this is partly on PB. If they admitted failure (and fault, and explained what happened, and offered restitution, but that's bloody unlikely), a lot of people would move on. But they're the ones "weekend at bernies"ing this debacle. And as long as they keep dragging it along, some backers are going to take their catharsis by entertaining themselves slapping PB around.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
wilycoyote wrote: What keeps us coming back? Morgan calls it exactly, a almost morbid, juvenile desire to make sure that PB does not get write this off and start up another falsely promised genre buster.
And we KNOW for a fact that they want to. I don't think anyone has a shadow of a doubt that if they didn't have this elephant around their neck, the Rifts board game would be an in-house production, with Kevin having a very public role.
Instead we have the flimsy farce of what we got last time. But that's my point. PB want to move on from RRT without consequences. And some backers simply aren't going to let them.
PB, HG and ND crushed things and have all moved on. Nothing we do will get product into hand. Nothing we do will get our money back.?
ND have moved on, for sure.
HG have moved on. As we are seeing, they've moved on to providing game licenses to companies other than PB and I am positive that is a result of people complaining about how PB has handled this. PB didn't know that other companies were getting licenses, I'm sure that was an interesting conversation when Kevin called HG to find out what was going on.
PB shouldn't be allowed to move on, even though they have tried. The Not-PB Rifts kickstarter did poorly. For whatever reasons you want to associate to that, personally, it seems obvious to me that PB were banking on people ignoring the "mean Robotech backers", a core of Rifts fans creating a tsunami of excitement and funding, and their own lousy reputation not having any impact.
But that didn't work, in part because those of us who won't let others forget that they stole our money and it's a risk to give them more based on promises.
It's not the only cause, but it's one of the primary ones.
Which is why I think Scott was brought on, to at least give the appearance (if not actual effort) that this was getting resolved and their other issues cleaned up, because it has finally dawned on them that their core base of fans that have managed to keep the lights on are not going to do more than that (and probably aren't even managing that any more) and nobody else is going to give them money with such a terrible reputation.
When Kevin complained that nobody at a trade show knew who they were and to get the word out, that's bad. Now when anyone remotely interested does a search to see what they are about and find they have stiffed backers, who is going to buy their stuff?
We are on schedule tomorrow for another "no information" aka "This is what Kevin told me" update..
Funny thing is I still get the weekly updates from Palladium (even though I unsubscribed numerous times)
And in it Kevin said that he got a phone call from his Business Manager.. Not Scott... not by his name... as if he
is not worth even talking to or even called by his name, just his title.. Shows the state of mind Kevin has about him...
I don't even own my box set anymore.. and would quickly get rid of any RRT that would show up on my door step.
but like most, I am still owed something... Even its the truth on what Kevin squandered the money on instead of the
product I paid for years ago....
I have my alpha strike, xwing, armada, attack wing, wh40k, flames of war, team yankee, heroclix, and soon imperial assault followed not long after by legion.
Oddly enough i got into all of these AFTER i gave up on rrt.
Man, the list of things I've delved into since this debacle is too much to list here. It's easily been a few thousand, probably $6-8$K over the last three years or so.
If PB had managed to finish this KS in a timely manner, I would have had no qualms about throwing them money for a New Generation/Mospeada?Sentinels game, even if there had been a scale change. I'm sure more folks than me would have felt the same.
They truly did waste an opportunity to get their company back on track and into the black, and it is truly all on them.
Stormonu wrote: Man, the list of things I've delved into since this debacle is too much to list here. It's easily been a few thousand, probably $6-8$K over the last three years or so.
If PB had managed to finish this KS in a timely manner, I would have had no qualms about throwing them money for a New Generation/Mospeada?Sentinels game, even if there had been a scale change. I'm sure more folks than me would have felt the same.
They truly did waste an opportunity to get their company back on track and into the black, and it is truly all on them.
A good sentiment to have that would be rewarding for any "normal" company.
Palladium Books is too focused on "get rich quick" schemes on the backs of others.
Living off the residue of prior "glories" with overpromise and under deliver (or not at all).
What you mention here is not a motivator for them in the least.
Anything amounting to a "donation" is where their focus is or they would not sell so many "trinkets".
It is pretty clear that at the very least Kevin feels entitled to our money and that we should feel rewarded enough to be counted among his "fan-friends".
I wish this was more joke than truth, but it is not.
While I'm sure it's done with good intentions, I don't find it helpful for people to wander in every so often and say 'gee guys, don't you think you should give it up?'
No. Thanks. I'm quite content to discuss the topics that the mods permit, including this one.
And it's not like this topic consumes large portions of my week. 5 or 10 minutes here and there catching up and crafting a little snark of my own isn't a massive sink on my time. I spend more time mucking around in various mobile games on my phone, reading, catching up on shows, slowly assembling/painting Shadows of Brimstone stuff, and watching US politics with dawning horror as it seems y'all are destined to usher in the end times (kidding... mostly...).
This thread is filled with mostly people who were similarly ripped off, thus giving it a measure of camaraderie, and hopefully acts as something of a warning to others who might stumble across it, assuming one look at the KS comments didn't send them screaming from the room.
Not to get too grandiose about what is basically 'gak-posting for lulz', but sure, getting a few laughs and providing a hint of community service for a low investment in time isn't exactly a tall call.
Used to be a lot more to keep up with when this thread was flying through multiple pages a day. The last page started like 3 or 4 days ago. We're not exactly putting out small novels these days.
I talked with my friends at PattonBoggs (google it, I'll wait) and we talked about this case.
They would not touch it, because they believe they won't win. The short version of the story is: PB hasn't actually done anything wrong, the KS T&C cover PB, and nobody of any real value wants to be early case law against KS.
I looked into getting an attorney in MI after I tried to get the great state of MD to go after PB. I told them what I want is:
1) A refund for my whatever (I don't care to look it up) like $300 to 500
2) What the KS funds were spent on via a discovery release (if you don't know what the legal definition of discovery is, please don't reply)
His estimate for the that was:
1) Write a settlement letter (2 hours)
2) Follow-up and get blown off on settlement (4 hours)
3) File a motion (2 hours)
4) Request discovery (1)
I'm at 9 hours at $200/hour and I don't have a single thing.
There is no way I'm throwing $5k at PB for legal fees.
Also, don't forget that PB hasn't broken a single law nor violated a contract. PB can (and should) ask for legal fees back and punitive damages.
I don't know anything about the district court that this would be in. For all I know, the judge could be a fan-friend.
It's a basic consumer law, whereby they took money for preorders and fail to deliver. You can sue them in your local small claims court, because that's where you reside, and that's where PB agreed to deliver to.
What we're looking at has long been the crux of the issue; they have ripped off thousands of people for a fairly small amount of money apiece. Of course, ~$270-300 US is not chump change, but in the grand scheme of things, we're not talking about thousands of backers out tens of thousands of dollars apiece. Nobody was tragically injured or died as a cause of this project (that I'm aware of, and now is not the time to point at Carmen's situation in case anyone gets an idea).
They even managed to deliver wave one, which one can have qualms about the quality of, but some portion (pro-rated, whatever) was handed over.
I am not a lawyer, but while I'd like to think "these donkey caves haven't shown more than token progress in 3 years" would be worth something, "they owe me like 1/3 to 1/2 of a $300 pledge" probably isn't going to set the courts alight over the injustice, in my layman's opinion.
So it's enough to be annoyed by, along with the frustration over the lacking quality of the figures/game, along with the ongoing lies/misdirection. But it's not enough to get me to pony up hundreds or thousands of dollars to attempt to recoup even the more substantial amount my friends and I pitched in (3 of us got 8 Battle Cry tiers and another couple hundred bucks in add ons, probably around $1,400-1,500 total, not bragging, simply presenting that my friends and I were not simply splitting a Reckless amongst ourselves).
Oh god, how I wish we'd just stuck with a single Reckless and a few add ons. >.<
What KS is and isn't is a land of pedantry. No, it's not a pre-order, nor is it an investment. It's not a charity or a pledge drive, it is *like* things that many consumers are familiar with, but lacks much of the basic protections inherent to most of those. This was less of a big deal when companies were asking for like 1-10 grand for some little thing, it's another when companies are pulling in millions a couple hundred bucks at a time.
That we don't have other legal recourse is not a strong point of the platform, and I suspect will be addressed some day. Wait for some Congressperson's grandkid to get ripped off for a couple of grand and maybe we'll see someone go light a fire under their butts.
Until then, scorn and mockery are about all that many of us have. Hell, something like 1,400 backers (around 1/4 of us) aren't even located in the US. If the notion of pursuing legal action to attempt to get restitution is unappealing even to those in the US (still likely limited by geography to a degree), imagine trying to do so from afar. Most of us are probably getting nothing further from this gakshow, but folks like Morgan in Australia and my friends here in the frozen wastes to the north? We're *really* not getting anything further.
So if keeping a little entertainment by smearing PB's name now and then is the best I'm gonna do, well then I guess that'll just have to suffice.
I feel that's a fairly realistic assessment of things, others are welcome to disagree and have their own take on the matter, I certainly don't speak for us all.
Are you and your lawyers completely ignorant of how consumer law and contract law works?
It is already settled case law that the contract must be enforcible, whereby either they deliver, or they provide a proper accounting, or they give you your money back. Simple as that.
To claim otherwise is ludicrous.
And were I the lead backer in my group, I absolutely would have built up an evidentiary case to get my money back via small claims.
Are you and your lawyers completely ignorant of how consumer law and contract law works?
It is already settled case law that the contract must be enforcible, whereby either they deliver, or they provide a proper accounting, or they give you your money back. Simple as that.
To claim otherwise is ludicrous.
And were I the lead backer in my group, I absolutely would have built up an evidentiary case to get my money back via small claims.
Agree 1001%
This is exactly what I said earlier... The Kickstarter ToS shouldn't be the deciding factor of any legal firm... The Tos is (very near) fething irrelevant... If you get a consultation and the lawyer is advising you about Kickstarter's ToS, rather than matters of law (which is their profession)... That's bad fething legal advice... It's not even legal advice at all... Though I asked for links, if any of this "legal advice" is true, I don't need to look it up. I've hired lawyers and gone to court. It's bad/wrong advice.
Evancich, your whole argument falls apart when you realize that they did in fact take preorders through their backerkit, outside of kickstarter altogether for wave two.
Many a deal has been made outside of the bounds of kickstarter.
They have even allowed third parties to buy kickstarter pledges from other people, a deal that does not subject the person purchasing the pledge to the kickstarter terms of service.
But it's not really settled caselaw AFAIK. The two cases I know of are both in Washington State (or at least not Michigan), and not at a federal level. While I'm sure that can be relevant, I'm not sure it's the same thing.
And as evanovich alludes to, it's not even a matter of winning. Costs to do so far outstrip costs recouped. And if you get a law oriented judge instead of a justice oriented one, or just one who thinks arguing over toys is dumb, the case can go completely to gak, and you're out more money on top of the money already outlaid.
Look, I don't think the legalities of the situation would protect PB or even Kickstarter from fair judgment. But there's enough there that breaching that bs would be cumbersome enough that it's simply not worth the cost, especially for an out of state backer.
evancich wrote: You clearly have no idea about what you are talking about.
The T&C and the fact that PB is "working" on it are all that actually matter.
Or, shut the feth up and go pro se and file your own motion and please post back here with how a company in MI handles your motion
For one thing, it is a forum so telling someone to shut up is not really an option and irritates moderators.
It has been established whatever the method, litigation with Palladium Books will be an expense far in excess of what it is worth, no matter what we feel.
If you feel those do not understand what is said and you recommend a course of action: how about you demonstrate your competency and file against PB.
As Forar has pointed out earlier, this group has become something of a support group, a "Palladium Anonymous" where we have made vows to kick the habit of sending money their way.
I hope you are as savvy as you claim, I would hate for you to lose and PB get more money out of you in a countersuit for embellished legal fees.
You've confused people's positions. Evancich was the one who looked into the suit, and explained why it wasn't likely to yield results. Johnny was the one who didn't, and explained why it would.
Either way, I enjoy these discussions that are taking place on a dicsussion forum.
Provided we all stay within the bounds of RULE#1, #2 and #3.
Telling people to 'shut up' is decidedly NOT within the rules here, as previously noted, so let's all please make more of an effort to keep it civil and enjoyable for all.
If that means that some people should ignore (literally or figuratively) certain people in this thread - OR the ENTIRE thread - then so be it!
Pre-orders doesn't apply to me, since I only backed the KS.
When I looked into this, (again) all I wanted was my refund and discovery around the KS $. I don't care about anything after the KS, since I was not part of that and don't have a claim for it.
Being a patent attorney, this isn't my area. And, I'm only licensed in VA, DC, MD, and NY.
I wrote a "real" legal letter to the AG for MI and MD. MI ignored me. MD told me to basically feth off and contact MI.
I asked the scariest real lawyers I know at Patton Boggs to do it. This pre-dates the FTC suit that happens. They told me that: PB is shielded (for the reasons I typed before) and Patton Boggs doesn't want to be the first real firm that goes after KS.
Real firms stayed away and it took the FTC to do that to move the needle.
So, I talk to a lawyer in MI in the district (if you don't know the difference between district and circuit, please don't reply) that PB's address is. His quote to me was $3k and that will get the 1st discovery response.
If PB isn't dumb, their response would be:
Total from the KS: $1.5M (or whatever)
And not provide the break down. Which means I'd have to pay the lawyer for another day in court to get relief and get a judge to maybe (and very maybe not) force PB to respond in kind. This is called enforcement. Enforcement is the only part that matters and it is the most expensive part.
Anybody giving you legal advice if they ignore enforcement, ignore their "legal" advice.
His belief, my (educated) belief, and scary fething lawyers all believe:
1) PB hasn't broken the law.
2) KS T&C protect them.
Therefore, they are in the "right" and would be dumb to settle. A judge (and any lawyer worth their salt will tell you to never, ever go in front of a judge) will ask simple questions like:
1) Prove that PB isn't working on it
2) etc
We (in the USA) do have that whole innocent thing. And as much as we think PB is terrible and stole our $. Anybody that brings this to court, will have to prove that to a judge and/or jury.
All PB has to say is: "These people are vexing litigants and here are quotes from a month ago, see we are working on it".
And nobody on this thread has a response that will carry any legal water to that.
If I was PB's lawyer (shudder) I'd:
1) Ask for fees and damages
2) Say absolutely nothing
3) Make the other side prove every little thing and provide docs against anything that was claimed
This just simply is not a winnable case until PB calls it quits. Admits any wrong doing.
And if you think otherwise, you simply don't know anything about the law.
Morgan Vening wrote: But it's not really settled caselaw AFAIK. The two cases I know of are both in Washington State (or at least not Michigan), and not at a federal level. While I'm sure that can be relevant, I'm not sure it's the same thing.
And as evanovich alludes to, it's not even a matter of winning. Costs to do so far outstrip costs recouped. And if you get a law oriented judge instead of a justice oriented one, or just one who thinks arguing over toys is dumb, the case can go completely to gak, and you're out more money on top of the money already outlaid.
Look, I don't think the legalities of the situation would protect PB or even Kickstarter from fair judgment. But there's enough there that breaching that bs would be cumbersome enough that it's simply not worth the cost, especially for an out of state backer.
My point, is that those saying they've gotten legal advice, didn't actually get legal advice or if they did -in fact get legal advice; share that advice in a way a lawyer would express. Disinformation is Palladium's tactic as well as is puffing one-self up (I am Palladium Books -Keven)... Costs are certainly relevant for an individual backer... I mean why pour 2K (as one person noted) into something when you've pledge $300-$500 dollars. But Indie GoGo or Go Fund Me are real options aren't they? Now you have 5K backers who if just half wish to pour 3-5 dollars you could easily raise somewhere around $7.5-$10K...
Personally I'd nominate someone like Forar to handle the funds... So who's the best Forar in MI?
Automatically Appended Next Post: The lowest legal bar (in MD) is a temp peace order. The process is:
1) Goto the cops and claim that your friend said they'd punch you in the face
2) A few days alter go in front of a judge and "prove" that this happened and affriad, etc
that "prove" is 51%. The legal def is it more likely happened than didn't
To win against PB, you are beyond a reasonable doubt (since PB didn't break the law and we want a contract mod), which is 91%
Do you think you can talk a judge (and likely a jury) into believing that PB stole your $XYZ and isn't trying to make it right?
When:
1) PB is sitting there with proof and saying they are "working" on it
2) Nobody cares about your toys
3) They judged you as a basement living 'net dweller
4) You are out of state
5) They don't understand fundstarter
Morgan Vening wrote: @Tali,
You've confused people's positions. Evancich was the one who looked into the suit, and explained why it wasn't likely to yield results. Johnny was the one who didn't, and explained why it would.
I am glad some information was given that was useful.
I have not confused anything: make your points, demonstrate knowledge, do not get condescending or tell them not to contribute or post.
I appreciate the attempt at trying to mollify matters however.
I really like to save my ire for Palladium Books rather than the folk here.
People are at least trying to hammer out some kind of path or plan on dealing with a situation that we are in no reasonable position to force into compliance.
It is not fair, it sucks, but a narcissist got our money through misrepresentation intentional or otherwise and he feels fully entitled to it.
So unless someone decides this is important enough to "take a hit for the team" we just keep the dialogue alive that Palladium Books is not an ethical publisher and needs to be dogged to the ends of their operating life.
My first ban ever was at Palladium Books and shortly followed on the Kickstarter for RRT.
PB holds a "special place" for me, I have gone through life feeling I have done good and lived well and I run into this gang of fun and get treated like some donkeycave.
So yeah, venting is good, we appear to be able to continue under the patronage of Alpharius so I try to keep his wishes in mind in keeping to some point of this thread.
At this point... I don't this a potential case being, "winnable..." Matters much.
One thing for certain. If Palladium has to open their books it might be winnable. If they haven't pad their taxes that might be something. If they've simply collected shipping and handling fees (or incorporated them at cost, when the Kickstarter started/concluded) and neither shipped or handled what they collected funds for... That could be a potential issue...
Two out of three of those points are pretty certain. What does winnable even mean? If folks got back 10% of what they backed for that'd be a lot more than 10% of nothing their going get in regards to rewards. If Palladium goes bankrupt, that'd also be fine by a lot of folks.
D: Your honor, they didn't pay taxes on this KS $.
Judge: That isn't part of the motion in front of me, it certainly goes after their characrter
Kev: Object
It just doesn't work like that. And, by the way, it is good that you don't know this. Keep living your life where you never have to intersect with the legal system.
If we want to do this:
$70 fee covers up to $5.5k in MI.
If anybody here lives in MI (you really have to do this in person) and wants to pro se rep 10 of us here or is willing to head there, I'll pay the filing fee and walk them thru how to legal up the paper work over the phone one day.
We will not win. But, it might be satisfying.
It'll be pro se vs pro se and whomever files will have maybe 45 min in front of a judge.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh yeah, the reason for local is "speedy trial" (lol).
If we filed today, we are talking 4 months later. Here in MD, you are more like 6 to 9 months later.
And you 100% have to show up on the day.
Who wants to sign up to do this in March or July of 2018?
Automatically Appended Next Post: The lowest legal bar (in MD) is a temp peace order. The process is:
1) Goto the cops and claim that your friend said they'd punch you in the face
2) A few days alter go in front of a judge and "prove" that this happened and affriad, etc
that "prove" is 51%. The legal def is it more likely happened than didn't
To win against PB, you are beyond a reasonable doubt (since PB didn't break the law and we want a contract mod), which is 91%
Do you think you can talk a judge (and likely a jury) into believing that PB stole your $XYZ and isn't trying to make it right?
When:
1) PB is sitting there with proof and saying they are "working" on it
2) Nobody cares about your toys
3) They judged you as a basement living 'net dweller
4) You are out of state
5) They don't understand fundstarter
Okay. Link some MI Statutes would you? Us non-lawyers got to keep up.
I don't know anything about the law in MI. I'd assume it is company friendly since the car companies are there.
What is a peace and protective order from the MD court... Have to do with MI? I mean, if you are a lawyer... lmao!
This is just too rich for me... I got boots on, but apparently I need hip-waiters! I'll just put you on ignore... no worries. If you say something relivant that isn't condescending... like, "Court is not like it is on TV..." And so on, some else can note it.
Don't forget you'll have to explain Robotech, mini war gaming and PB to the judge.
As a grown person.
Yes, your honor, I play with toy soldiers from a cartoon in the 1980s. No I can't play my game with these toys I need toys that look a tiny bit different to REALLY play it.
And, Kev slaps down a quote from China (that nobody can read) and says that is from a week ago and production will maybe start in 2 months. This person is crazy and I don't know why I'm here.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I was giving an analogy of what the legal bars are.
Lowest in MD is a temp peace order, which is about 51%. The other is 91%, almost twice.
Do you think anybody here in a few hours can talk a judge into that PB isn't "working" on it? When the bar is that much higher?
Given that judges are people like anyone else, yes, I could see some difficulty if they get lost in the minutia, but that argument (as a layperson) has never held water.
"Toys" or models or kitchen appliances or an iphone, it doesn't matter what the item is, simply that a product was in development, we were offered X items in exchange for Y contribution, we followed through on our behalf, they have maybe covered 1/3 to 1/2 or so of their obligations.
Please understand, I'm not challenging that this may well be how it is. I'm trying to comment on how it may well be versus how I'd like to hope it would be.
I'd like to think that it wouldn't matter if I paid up front for a couple grand worth of sex toys or something, at the end of the day, people should be protected whether or not the judge presiding over the case thinks that's dumb or not.
But, again, I respect that this may be an overly idealistic worldview. Especially after watching some of the bits about judges on shows like Last Week Tonight.
I think if I had to sort this bullgak out like my life depended on it, I could give a fairly good crack at things. Without touting my own horn (in public... how embarrassing) I'm kind of a scholar of this gakshow. But I wouldn't be confident enough to pony up a couple of grand to make it happen just to recoup maybe half a grand worth of outstanding items from my group's add ons and pro-rated missing items from the pledged tiers.
Yes, your honor, I play with toy soldiers from a cartoon in the 1980s. No I can't play my game with these toys I need toys that look a tiny bit different to REALLY play it.
Did they take money in exchange for a product?
Did they provide everything they agreed to in the contract?
Did they misuse the money?
Did they provide the product in the timeframe that they indicated?
Did they use the methods that they indicated when they took the money?
Did they provide effective communication as to the cause and reasons of the delay?
Nothing else is relevant.
I am not so insecure in my hobbies to be ashamed of playing with toy soldiers in the first place.
I'm an educated and respected professional, a responsible adult, I own property and pay taxes, I have a family. I couldn't care less what anyone thinks of what I do with my free time.
If you took my money in exchange for a product -- any product -- in a legal transaction, then you owe me and the law is not going to judge the merit of that based on if it is for toys, car parts, food or any other product.
So this angle of yours to try to belittle what is owed or to shame those who are owed is nonsense.
And, Kev slaps down a quote from China (that nobody can read) and says that is from a week ago and production will maybe start in 2 months. This person is crazy and I don't know why I'm here.
Another bit of nonsense. In your imagination, you think courts don't require documents to have been interpreted.
In your imagination, years of misleading customers can be wiped away with some piece of paper indicating that things will finally start (possibly) moving.
Read your own posts - court isn't like tv.
I'm glad we have someone that pretends to know anything about law, again. It's been a while. The condescension mixed with ignorance is entertaining.
It looks reasonable, I am sure the next strategy is for PB to insist on going to a civil case and hoping the person chickens out.
I read many documents in my day to day (not legal specifically but binding all the same) and find this form actually somewhat humane.
It does question how far would Unca Kev have to open his books to prove he is 'working on it'? He might well get by with throwing a few quotes out there and say that there have been the usual contractual issues that have been consistently ending in irreconcilable differences between Palladium and the potential manufacturers before a contract could be drawn up.
We'd be well within our rights to cry foul on that after three years but what is the legal definition of 'working on it'? It's not impossible to manage to get a court case to invoke some transparency on Palladium's part, but it'll be expensive for sure. If we could get every backer to pitch in $5 there could probably be a start but I imagine we'd get 1% of backers to actually commit and end up with a massive legal fund of $267 unfortunately.
I hate to bet on apathy but I doubt even a 100 backers would really commit to getting the lawyer wheels greased much less the 2,500 it would take to raise the money and not be a burden of throwing good money after bad, you know?
I think Palladium could be cracked but it would take organization and agreement on levels that just don't happen much on the intarwebs.
I'm just full on speculating with what I've read here.
But it's gonna take money
A whole lot of spending money
It's gonna take plenty of money
To do it right child
It's gonna take time
A whole lot of precious time
It's gonna take patience and time, um
To do it, to do it, to do it, to do it, to do it
To do it right child
It looks reasonable, I am sure the next strategy is for PB to insist on going to a civil case and hoping the person chickens out.
In my case, I'd start here:
California Courts wrote:Consumer purchase (claim by seller) — A claim to enforce a debt arising from a consumer purchase can be filed only in the county or area of court location (1) where the consumer signed the contract, (2) where the consumer resided when the contract was signed, (3) where the consumer resided when the action was filed, or (4) where goods purchased on installment credit are installed or permanently kept. Consumer purchase (claim by buyer) — An action also can be filed in localities (1), (2), or (3) immediately above by the consumer against a business firm that provided the consumer with goods, consumer services, or consumer credit. An action also can be filed by the consumer in any of those locations if the suit is based on a purchase that results from an unsolicited telephone call made by the seller to the buyer (including a situation where a buyer responds by a telephone call or electronic transmission).
If I were the lead backer for the pledge, I would absolutely have standing and venue to file in California, Service By Mail to Palladium's legal address of record.
Seawolf wrote: For anyone that gives a tinkers' cuss, Scotts' Update #8 is posted. If you were not expecting much, you will not be disappointed.
And no mention of the Force Orgs. Again.
I'm pretty sure he's forgotten he promised. Because it's the SIMPLEST FETHING THING.
Instead, next to nothing. The renders of the Objective Pack 1 are OK I guess,
EDIT : And it appears not even those are particularly original. n815e posted a picture from Update 111 that clearly shows both the tuna and infiltrator Max as having remained pretty unchanged. It does look like the Minmei has changed. The original appears to be looking off to her right, and the other is looking more straight ahead. But as others have said, if this is done TO SCALE, unlike what I always assumed was just an abstract out of scale objective, it's going to be so small as to be irrelevant. There's zero chance they can get any kind of detail retained, and it looking much different (and no bigger than) a Game of Life person is unlikely. Of course, Scott does couch things in Kevin-esque weasel words. One new model of three is still showing "more renders of game pieces that haven’t been posted in the Kickstarter Updates before". He IS showing a new game piece. And two old ones. Bleh.
And I'm glad he didn't mention quotes if he had nothing to report on that front. But that doesn't change that there's NOTHING TO REPORT ON THAT FRONT.
It really just is amazing how bad PB are at this. Jeff, Wayne and Kevin before him, and now Scott doing the same.
Yeah... But the estimated ship date was December 2013 and we are just a few months away for a 4th year anniversary.
I don't believe anything they post on there...
3 things I will take as truth when it happens..
1. Palladium games goes bankrupt.
2. I get a shipping notice saying my stuff is on the truck to my house.
3. 2021 happens and HG loses the licence, so all product will get pulled.
Some or all might happen.. but I am thinking we are just looking at a pipe dream now...
Emails, pictures of renders and kickstarter postings don't cost anything... we are looking at vapor ware at this point.
I have to wonder - who are they going to get to tweak the renders they showed - whoever did the gRifts models? Was that Carmen?
More likely, it'll be a call up to ND, followed by a swift hang-up.
Have they ever shown renders for Objective Pack 2 - the crashed valk, damaged battlepod ... and I forget what else? That's an additional, what, six more updates they can squeeze out of this dead, drawn and quartered horse?
At this point I am just waiting until 2021 to see if PB has a fire sale for all of the extra stock they have to see if they can make anything back on it or whether they just take it all to the landfill.
This update just shows that they have no idea what they are doing. The details on Minmei won't even be able be produced due to the tiny scale they selected for the game. Why show us a close up of something you will *never* be able to actually get to show on a model?
At this point I am just waiting until 2021 to see if PB has a fire sale for all of the extra stock they have to see if they can make anything back on it or whether they just take it all to the landfill.
It will truly be the "year of RRT" as they unload anything that is left in every Christmas Surprise Package order that comes in.
Talizvar wrote:Rather sad and maddening all in one.
I wonder what integrity costs to lose for a living wage?
I'll admit to this happening faster than I thought it would.
I'm of the other opinion. I'm surprised he's lasted as long as he did at looking at least kind of independent. There was way too little criticism, for me to see him as not just another flunky. Granted, you don't want to gak on the boss, but when you're trying to write the ship, you need to acknowledge some of the biggest problems, apologize, and address those problems.
I know I've harped on it a lot, but for me it became about the Force Orgs. It's a simple task, that Scott claimed was mostly done. And then spent several Updates dicking about, and then blowing it off. Rather than just getting it done and showing that the crap of the past was in the past.
The other was in his first Update. "First, Wayne and Kevin spent half of Friday morning (7/16/2017) on a conference call with a manufacturer (I did not sit in on the call due to another pressing business need that morning).". That he didn't had something more important than getting first hand knowledge of the biggest problem that the campaign has had for the last three years (getting quotes!), and then taking Kevin and Wayne's word that everything was awesome, and then not seeming to follow up on that with backers (what happened to that quote? Why did they choose to open up bidding again? Is that manufacturer still in the running?), cemented things for me that this was looking to be the same old same old.
Then, when he stopped addressing backers concerns and putting irrelevant gak forward instead, was when I knew it was PB Flunky v3.0.
Alpharius wrote: Not being at PB is another red flag - as previously noted, it pretty much means he's getting PB-filtered "info" for all the important things...
Ugh.
That was definitely a "Wait.... what?" moment. But as others have mentioned, I'm not sure if that's been confirmed yet? I know I saw it, but I can't recaill the source.
But it was definitely up there with "We're talking to manufacturers at GenCon, but I'm not going". Meaning everything that happened at GenCon, passed through the lens of Kevin. And Kevin's not exactly known for being Detective Friday. Hyperbole, exaggeration and bs are Kevin's stock in trade.
I don't like cyberstalking, or using of any private communication, or anything like that.
But a search on PB's own public Forums of the Megaverse for keyword "texas" author "Scott Gibbons" gives this as the first result.
"Then I moved to Texas,", from July 2015. Several other posts by him (again, on a public forum) place him in the area. So it's not definitive (he could have moved since), but it is in a public record that he at least did live there, and there have been no claims that he relocated since.
Talizvar wrote: It is all about positive spin for Palladium Books and Kevin.
Negative spin for anyone else the least bit critical of the above.
If positive spin is being talked about negatively in the gaming community, various message boards, and social media then Palladium is looking at things through some rather delusional rose-colored glasses.
While this has been incredibly maddening to the backer's, to varying degrees, Talizvar is correct: this is a first world problem. But this doesn't excuse, or validate Palladium for bilking backers and Palladium Books and Kevin 'I AM PALLADIUM' Siembieda should be held responsible for being the crooked gakkers that they are. While I have come to some terms that I will likely never see the balance of what I pledged for, if I can voice my concerns on any forum constructively and maybe keep someone from getting hosed by this outfit, then I will consider that equitable compensation for losing money to this outfit.
Well since my rt alpha strike conversions are done in at least written form....on to rt zeta (4 variations). After that may be rt xwing, the rt armada and/or rt attack wing. After that....who knows what.
Maybe a first world problem but my updates (more rapid than Scooter's and just as informative) take a few minutes to bang out versus the disaster recovery issues that I am focused on. But, yeah, the theft pales in comparison to the real problems of the world. I'm getting some mileage out of writing Scooter's updates for him, though. Keeping my typing skills sharpened while my grammar gets worse as I write his updates with far too many run on sentences.
I care just enough to make fun of the dingbats, dullards, dunces, and daft dorks that make up the wonderfully insular world of Palladium. I occasionally still get angry but yeah, end of the day I got a lesson that no one keeps Unca Kevvy's fingers out of the pie that he will mash and mix and squish until it's an unrecognizable lump of goo which he will then blame the end result on everyone else that never hardly even touched the pie. Or rather Ninja Division apparently baked the pie and then Unca Kevvy shooed them off so he could do the above and THEN blame them for the mess it has become.
Does NMI actually have a group he plays these tabletop games with? I can't imagine the guy actually being personable enough to have players coming to his table to play some gRifts, Heroes Limited, or Beyond the Superfluous. Imagine a lot of, "You are banished from my table!" Could be wrong, the guy could just be abrasive with an inflated sense of self online and be a meek kitten in real life that is a fun guy to be with.
I had a friend that was great to game with, knowledgeable of history, willing to try games out, etc. but was a supernova level jerk online and you couldn't believe for a second it was the same person.
IDK I don't think that Scott is getting paid much, if in fact he is getting paid something. I forgot to thank whoever posted that link to the photo of him and his coffee mug... (Which reads somethin' city, Texas) He is obviously a sock puppet... I mean based on the comments, why do they even continue with these updates. It only fans the flames... And most people hardly have anything more than apathy for this project. And there is no money in Palladium Books producing wave 2 "rewards."
I mean what? 300-500 commenters most likely in the last 2 years... ( a guess) and only a handful of far more active posters, out of more than 5k backers. I think this is less worry from them on legal fronts... Because that would have already happened and more about them having some money left over but having zero interest in paying any of that money back as a refund... So they can just say they are working on it... Rather than pay anything back. Instead of saying they are working on it... to avoid any legal ramifications... Maybe it doesn't matter (shades of grey) but the first one is shattier than the second.
And... The whole time they are workin' on it and when the money runs out all the better for their own conscience... That's how narcissistic they are.
Is anyone up on the facebook post on Mike's group where Thomas Roache stated that all the planned Robotech RPG tactics products (like the scenario book) are on hold until wave 2 releases?
Seems like relevant information that I have seen little commentary on.
I don't think there is much to say about it. Like any other Palladium book, the first scenario book was meant to be released a year ago, I think, and will be promised for years to come.
Merijeek wrote: Wow, the cover on that "Dimensional Outbreak" book is sure something. Whose kid drew that one?
PB used to have decent illustrations and covers. Their graphic design may still be stuck in the 80s, but their illustrations were at least evocative and (usually) well-executed. But they've really gone downhill. Maybe they don't have enough money to pay their usual artists?
This one from a few years ago seems very, well, cheap:
Swabby wrote: Is anyone up on the facebook post on Mike's group where Thomas Roache stated that all the planned Robotech RPG tactics products (like the scenario book) are on hold until wave 2 releases?
Seems like relevant information that I have seen little commentary on.
Yep!
About a year ago he asked people to write scenarios for that book and now it seems he's taking credit for it in typical PB fashion.
Pfft. If it doesn't have Kevin's name on it, it's not going to sell. And if it doesn't sell it doesn't do a whole lot of good financially, now will it?
He only does that for the good of the company, and by extension, the RPG industry that he created.
Yeah.. that is him... It is just digital poser art... I seen people use the same software and get crazy results.
But his work is on the very low end... Plus if he would just watch a few training videos or take a few art classes
he could improve by leaps and bounds.. but then Kevin couldn't afford him.
If you look at the Big dogs of the industry.. Fantasy Flight, Wizards of the Coast and Games Workshop, they all
have a ton of art, especially the ones that have card games. I don't remember a single one that uses this type of art.
So if he tried to get work else were I am sure they would say "no thank you" and move on. But Kevin as a publisher makes him a
"real" artist by purchasing his work.. allowing him to say I am a professional game artist.. Yeah but my name is in the front of some
game books when I played a unreleased game at a random convention to help play test it.. Well I guess that makes me a
"professional game designer"
Well... if you alienate your freelance artist to the point they no longer want to work for you (because PB is SSOOO good about getting the freelance artist exposed to the gaming industry... as in not to work for PB), the only option is very generic and mediocre work in Software Platforms like Poser. I used to like the artwork in most of PBs' books. But if KS can get diamonds from a turnip, he'd do so to anyone wanting to contribute to Rifts. Why anyone would want to work for such a spring board for healthy employment in the gaming industry is anyone's guess.
The cover for Rifts Black Market is credited to "John Macdonnell," and that name doesn't really bring up any other Google hits for being artwork related (no DeviantArt page or the like) - not all that surprising, given the...quality that the cover displays.
[edit] I take that back. Pro-tip, if you're an artist and you may want people to be able to find your work, it helps to have the name you're published under - say. not missing the space - for searches.
https://johnmacdonnell.deviantart.com/
Well, at least the artist is happy...
Looks like Kevin is "taking a chance" on using unpublished artists.
I feel a bit sorry for John that Kevin using his work is not much of a endorsement.
Hi! My answer to your question was given earlier in this thread or its predecessor. You are free to dig through the 400+ pages and find it for yourself.
KTG17 wrote:I want to know for each and every one of you:
1) That you played the game and liked it, and want more
or
2) Played the game and didn't like it
or maybe
3) Was only in it for the models
ANSWER NOW!!!!!!!!!!!
Well that is rude. Would be nice to explain a bit your interest in this poll.
Will answer anyway:
1) Played game: YES many times, Liked it: Kinda, needed some tweaks, Want more: YES, it actually needs more, that is why play is not as fun as it could be.
2) Needs help, something simple like building MDC bugs me.
3) Kinda, gaming in the Robotech world is attractive but a bunch of same scale models were a big draw. Feel sorry for those where models are not their main focus: UEDF Valks are pretty fussy.
Your poll is really weak / not structured well in getting definitive answers, that is why you get answers like this:
JohnHwangDD wrote:Hi! My answer to your question was given earlier in this thread or its predecessor. You are free to dig through the 400+ pages and find it for yourself.
That is truly an awesome answer.
Points to how repetitive things get here too.
KTG17 wrote: I want to know for each and every one of you:
1) That you played the game and liked it, and want more
or
2) Played the game and didn't like it
or maybe
3) Was only in it for the models
ANSWER NOW!!!!!!!!!!!
Definately #3, though if I had gotten enough of a force to a painted state, I would have at least tried the game. I may yet play, but it's extremely low on my totem pole.
KTG17 wrote: I want to know for each and every one of you:
1) That you played the game and liked it, and want more
or
2) Played the game and didn't like it
or maybe
3) Was only in it for the models
ANSWER NOW!!!!!!!!!!!
Sure. I'll bite. My answer is based on the decay of caring that PB has shown.
It was 1, the game was okay, had some issues. Then it became 2 because the game stagnated, because half the game is still missing and the issues weren't fixed. Then it became 3, because I can use the models as mechs in Battletech. Finally it became 4, I'd rather them sit and collect dust in a box somewhere than see the light of day and tick me off about the delay because PB can't seem to figure out how to actually......work. Talking about work is not work.
KTG17 wrote: I want to know for each and every one of you:
1) That you played the game and liked it, and want more
or
2) Played the game and didn't like it
or maybe
3) Was only in it for the models
Here's your answers:
1.) I would like more... but Palladium refuses to finish the product they started.
2.) Can't really enjoy or dislike an unfinished product.
3.) The models were a key selling point for the game, and Palladium should have recognized, finished the game and give it the support it deserves.
KTG17 wrote: I want to know for each and every one of you:
1) That you played the game and liked it, and want more
or
2) Played the game and didn't like it
or maybe
3) Was only in it for the models
ANSWER NOW!!!!!!!!!!!
I waited a bit to answer because frankly i don't do what my wife tries to tell me to so I sure as hell wont do it to your timeline.
Yes I played it. Yes I liked it though it needed and needs work. Hell I devoted a crapton if time to supporting with Mike etc (I created the proboard that for a while had higher traffic than PB's own dedicated rrt board and created the rrt wiki). No at this point I do not want more. My time and money have gone to several games that are better in their own ways, are quite well supported, and do not treat their customers as afterthoughts.
Lol. So someone found the FB group wanting to do a class action and asked PB about it on their forums and naturally their response was to delete the thread.
Sue them? What for? I could have sworn that the official Palladium Books position was that they've provided more than enough, and that anything "Wave Two" is a bonus provided by the Divine Siembieda?
Remember, one lie is always more believable than two!
Forar wrote: I have a question for KTG17;
Why do you feel the need to wander into this thread every so often and make declarations or demands of the people who post in it?
I mean, this is the only series of threads in Misc Sci-Fi that you've posted in. It wasn't exactly a Holmsian piece of sleuthing.
I have a question for you, why are you stalking me?
History is easy to check here.
No special effort "stalking" required.
Seeing someone's posting history makes it really easy to evaluate the "sincerity" the person operates on.
Looking at what you bother to post, Forar's question is a logical one.
A question you have not seen fit to answer.
Your poll is really weak / not structured well in getting definitive answers, that is why you get answers like this
I thought I was asking to pick one:
"1) That you played the game and liked it, and want more
or
2) Played the game and didn't like it
or maybe
3) Was only in it for the models"
Talizvar wrote: History is easy to check here.
No special effort "stalking" required.
Seeing someone's posting history makes it really easy to evaluate the "sincerity" the person operates on.
Looking at what you bother to post, Forar's question is a logical one.
A question you have not seen fit to answer.
Oh so you stalk people too. So it appears Robotech and Stalking go hand in hand.
Oh don't worry I will reveal my interest in to topic shortly.
Well, #1 is really 3 questions so should pretty much be ignored.
#2 is two questions and again should be ignored.
#3 If you were really lucky, you might get a couple people who may agree to this answer.
Pointless.
Which goes to the unanswered questions for this poll:
Why ask this?
Why do you show up on occasion and make demands?
Where is your interest in this?
You are new to Dakka in relative terms so why show up here?
Your history makes it look like it is merely to troll, why deserve any answer at all?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
KTG17 wrote: Oh so you stalk people too. So it appears Robotech and Stalking go hand in hand.
Oh don't worry I will reveal my interest in to topic shortly.
Ah, you added to your post.
Well that answered my question.
My, aren't we cute.
Ok I am going to explain my position here. Pardon the typos I am banging this out on a iPhone and will no doubt do some fat-fingering.
Now, the origin of this story begins a few decades ago. When I was a young whipper-snapper growing up in Hong Kong. I am an American, but spent many of my early years jumping around South East Asia. The cool thing about that experience was that I was in ground zero for many of the classic anime robot series that came out in the 80s, such as Gundam, Xabungle, Dougram, L-Gaim, Dragonar, Dunbine, VOTOMS, and so on, with of course, Macross and Mospeada.
Now you have to understand how Macross turned the world upside down for my friends and I. Even as impressive and timeless do the technical designs are today, they were revolutionary at the time. And it wasn't just because planes could turn into robots, but also the gritty art at the time. The details, weathering, dings and scrapes in the armor, etc. it was all pretty amazing. And besides all the toys and models I was getting, many of these shows were shown on TV in such places as Hong Kong.
So we would race home from school, tune into one of the Chinese TV channels, and watch Macross dubbed from Japanese to Chinese, and of course I could neither read or speak either. I had a couple of Chinese friends who would do their best to give me some details on the story and robots, but much of it I would have to make up in my head. And I didn't this for a lot of Robot shows. And I would have to say that while I loved Dougram and VOTOMS and a few others, Macross was the top of the mountain as far as designs went. Until Z Gundam came out, but that's another story.
So eventually I move to Indonesia which at the time might as well had been purgatory. One one TV channel at the time, and it was static most of the time. This predates the internet btw, so it was like living in a black out. But I had a friend at school who had some 'Robotech' on VHS and was translated into English. I was so excited. I knew a little about Mospeada for example, but nothing on the story, so was stoked about The Next Generation. I ate it all up.
But it wasn't until I moved back to the states and saw the comics did I realize what Harmony Gold did bringing three series that had nothing to do with each other, and found so many ridiculous plot concepts to bring them together. But since I was so interested in the technical details Ineven bought the PB Robotech RPG books, and even played a few games!!! So embarrassing. Anyway, I dropped the Robotech nonsense and just accepted the original versions of the stories.
When Robotech RPG Tactics came out. I sprung and got it. It seemed like a well put-together game set. The models didn't bother me as I am a model builder anyway, and prefer more options than less. But I wasn't thrilled with the game mechanics and since then the game has sat on my shelf.
No I have seen the previews for future releases, and many of the Macross designs never turned into anything but resin models would be awesome. Like the original Ghosts. But I have so little appreciation for Harmony Gold and PB at this point that if both went out of business it would be better for the planet. If some of you lost money on the Kickstarter (which I didn't really follow as it was going on), that sucks. I feel bad for you. But at the end of the day it's all supporting a perverted concept of a superior concept anyway. I mean, we are to believe that the Robotech Masters create the massive Zentradi and their massive battle pods in order to fight small Invid and their several meter tall Shock Troopers? Ridic.
Anyway, for those that grew up here and didn't see it in its original form back in the day, I can understand the appreciation you might have for it, but now with the internet and the availability of info on the net, you don't really even need HG or PB to enjoy these anime anymore. I know that won't satisfy all of you and thats understood.
That the original anime source material are IYO superior to the HG Robotech?
Good for you. What bearing does that have on this Kickstarter, and the failure of it to deliver?
Is there a gaming alternative you can recommend? Or are you just trolling people who have money tied up in this project that they should move on because you think Macross is the superiot product?
This thread is about the game, not the shows. And people do need HG and PB if they wanted to have a game with a scope larger than people's basements.
What bearing does that have on this Kickstarter, and the failure of it to deliver?
Is there a gaming alternative you can recommend? Or are you just trolling people who have money tied up in this project that they should move on because you think Macross is the superiot product?
Good questions.
We'll give KTG17 a post or two to answer them, and pending those answers...
You guys are trolling me far more than I am trolling you. As a matter of fact, I am not even trolling at all. Just making conversation.
Almost 400 pages of discussion on this topic and a guy comes in with some fresh new opinions and points of view and people lose their gak and start stalking and harassing me. You guys should be embarrassed.
Part of me wants the best outcome, people to get their money back. I don't like to push the world scam very hard, but This is just half a step up from total non-delivery.
In a way I think it's worse. Pretty sure the majority of people know wave 2 just isn't going to happen. Most KS scams just drop off the face of the earth or just never bring it up again. Palladium just brings it up over and over again for backers on kickstarter, but anywhere where palladium have any direct control, they stifle the conversation.
Between all the drama, the lies, the regurgitated information, and the delays until the rights are gone, it feels like watching a documentary.
While I want the best outcome from this debacle, the likely hood of it happening is nil. If Palladium had done their due diligence, this would have been a resolved issue a long time ago. However they didn't. Whatever advice they received was either ignored or Kevin "I AM PALLADIUM" Siembieda stepped in thinking his ideas were better.
At the end of the day, when everything is said and done this debacle lies purely and solely at Palladiums feet. Period.
They should very well be held to task for it, and they should own it.
Is this a drama fest? Yes.
Have their been lies? Yes.. more lies than a Washington Politician.
Have they been regurgitating information? Yes. Just so they have the appearance (ha, ha) of doing something while giving their backer's the universal symbol of 'I hate you.'
Have they delayed? A reasonable delay is 3-6 months (and that's stretching reasonable). 3-4 years is outright criminal.
I've seen documentaries... if this can be titled: "Don't give your money to Palladium Books!"
It's a shame this Kickstarter doesn't get more mainstream attention for what it is. It has to be one of the worst kickstarters for the sheer fact that it just keeps going.
KTG17 wrote: You guys are trolling me far more than I am trolling you. As a matter of fact, I am not even trolling at all. Just making conversation.
Almost 400 pages of discussion on this topic and a guy comes in with some fresh new opinions and points of view and people lose their gak and start stalking and harassing me. You guys should be embarrassed.
Er....no.
Knowing what we now...'know'...do your posts going forward plan to follow Rule #2?
Unlikely.
Will they follow Rule #1?
Doubtful.
Please make sure you're going to be adding something that makes sense - and follows the rules of the site - before posting again.
KTG17 wrote: You guys are trolling me far more than I am trolling you. As a matter of fact, I am not even trolling at all. Just making conversation.
Almost 400 pages of discussion on this topic and a guy comes in with some fresh new opinions and points of view and people lose their gak and start stalking and harassing me. You guys should be embarrassed.
No, you are definitely trolling.
You came in with a fake poll to stir the pot. It would be poetic if we force you to lick the spoon clean.
1) That you played the game and liked it, and want more
or
2) Played the game and didn't like it
or maybe
3) Was only in it for the models
I asked for people to pick one of three options out of curiosity on the feeling peeps had on this game. Not sure how I am blowing rules 1 and 2 doing that.
KTG17 wrote: You guys are trolling me far more than I am trolling you. As a matter of fact, I am not even trolling at all. Just making conversation.
Almost 400 pages of discussion on this topic and a guy comes in with some fresh new opinions and points of view and people lose their gak and start stalking and harassing me. You guys should be embarrassed.
This is a group of people who have had any number of individuals come in over the years and challenge 'why are you so angry?', 'why are you still talking about this?', 'gawd, just get over it already!' and other unhelpful statements and stances. At 400+ posts on Dakka, one would think you might have picked up that ALL CAPS DEMANDS don't generally go over well in terms of polite discourse.
You didn't have 'fresh new opinions', you demanded to know things about us without any prior engagement other than a few random posts that showed little interest in actually finding things out, but instead making declarations and assumptions about those who've been here in one capacity or another for nearly half a decade.
So, funny that, most didn't bow and scrape before you. Welcome to Dakkadakka.
Also, 'looking at your profile' isn't 'stalking', no matter how much you may wish to cloak yourself as a victim. The fact that you've barely ever said anything in these threads is what stands out. As I said, it wasn't work worthy of Sherlock Holmes, and as was pointed out, it's literally two clicks (once on your forum handle, once on the subforum in question). We have had plenty of bad-faith participants in here over the years, and seeing a handful of statements that did little to engage made this 'poll' no different.
Not to pile on, I do see that others (including an official, alt-colour text and all, response has been given), but if you actually want discourse, if you actually want to understand this thread, its participants, and history, but don't want to do the heavy lifting of reading through hundreds of pages to date, maybe not charging in with reckless abandon would go over a bit better.
And really, just how important are our original intentions anyway? Your follow up context says nothing about why it was SO IMPORTANT to hear why we backed the project, NOW. You love the anime? Cool story. I bet most of us did here on some level. But nearly half a decade later, after all the shenanigans PB has put the project through, the missteps and lying and delays and more lies, our reasoning back in 2013 is almost charmingly quaint in how irrelevant our participation to this day in this thread and chatter elsewhere might be.
For the record, my friends and I backed because we all loved the show and wanted to recapture epic battles from it with figures we built. Then we got around 2/3 to 3/4 of the figures we were owed, but it was mostly the 'pawns' and maybe some Rooks and a Bishop. Most of the meat of the game felt missing. And the models were a pain in the ass to build compared to the games we also played, with minimal (to us) enhancements in detail or posability. And the rules were nothing special at best, and bloated with unnecessary nods to the RPG that isn't all that good in the first place (this I can speak from experience, having played one form or another of Palladium RPB for over half a decade in my younger years, and once owning nearly everything they'd ever released).
Which is mostly tangential to 'PB took a bunch of money from a bunch of people, delivered a fraction of their promised materials, and have shown naught but token effort to presumably try to keep even cursory legal challenges at bay, have been lying to us for years (even just in hindsight), and aside from a new face spitting out the old lies, not much has changed or is expected to change until maybe half a decade more from now when maybe the IP rights clusterfeth becomes an even bigger mess'.
KTG17 wrote: Fake poll?!? I asked:
I want to know for each and every one of you:
1) That you played the game and liked it, and want more
or
2) Played the game and didn't like it
or maybe
3) Was only in it for the models
I asked for people to pick one of three options out of curiosity on the feeling peeps had on this game. Not sure how I am blowing rules 1 and 2 doing that.
This is absolutely ridiculous.
I must admit Forar has made a very courteous explanation of the state of things.
"Fake poll" is just because it critically is lacking in focus so that any answers would be pretty much meaningless.
Plus the only "fresh" element of your questions is the newness of the person asking them: the questions themselves are not new.
Each of our history or profiles are a means of credentials of sorts.
It is an easy thing to check and I have no issues with mine being looked at (would be honored anyone could be bothered).
Participate in a meaningful way and the history will speak volumes.
RRT has dragged on long enough that the only questions we really have are the following:
- What have you done or are doing with RRT? Model build? Paint? Play?
- What can be done to get our money back or some kind of compensation or closure for what remains?
- How many people have any real reason to believe in wave 2 ever happening?
- How long can Palladium Books can keep this farce of Wave 2 ever happing going? We appear to have a licensing due-date coming so in the eyes of the law we may have a hard-stop ending date.
So there you go.
I honestly believe people have been terribly civil with you.
You may want to hang out in reddit or 4chan for a bit to gain some perspective.
So you are saying that is someone answered my poll that they played the game and didn't like it, that that answer would be meaningless? Fake poll followed by a fake answer then? This is brilliant.
How about, if you didn't want to contribute to my poll, just don't answer and move on to another part of the discussion?
I mean you've obviously thought I have wasted your time, and I certainly feel you have wasted mine.
Not sure why you keep banging on about this, at this point it almost seems llike you might be simply a Palladium stooge simply trying to cause aggravation, come on NMI it is you isn't it trying to get us back for posting the John Candice SNAFU
As several people have already posted (Forar with his usual polite but firm response) the people here are simply disgruntled backers of a project that we were all excited about those four plus years ago. We are of an age that remembers the first runs of Robotech and its impact. We saw the blurb, liked what we were seeing and put up the monies. What happenned the nis easily traced through this thread (and its earlier brother) or a quick perusal of the KS site.
Many did build the first models, played a few games and as Forar said waited for the main course. That never happenned and the game and models went back on the shelf.
Going forward the vast majority will probably say that wave 2 will never happen (but ....nah is is not) and so are here generally to make sure Palladium are still held to account, nothing more nothing less.
Having a bash at us is a little churlish,over the years the regulars here and on the KS comments have sometimes had spats with each other but do respect others viewpoints, in a far more friendly way than many forums I visit.
Jefffar wrote: Even I don't see much reason for what KTG17 has posted, and most people think I'm trolling this thread.
This is spoken by a moderator on the Palladium Forums.
Jefffar has been polite enough to me so I see no troll here.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
KTG17 wrote: So you are saying that is someone answered my poll that they played the game and didn't like it, that that answer would be meaningless? Fake poll followed by a fake answer then? This is brilliant.
How about, if you didn't want to contribute to my poll, just don't answer and move on to another part of the discussion?
I mean you've obviously thought I have wasted your time, and I certainly feel you have wasted mine.
My mistake, I was silly enough to think you wanted something meaningful out of this "polite" poll.
I have been known to bang my head against a wall on occasion and get curious about other strange people's motivations... seems oddly appropriate for a forum on RRT and Palladium Books.
If I was worried about "wasting time" I would not enter a discussion about Palladium Books.
Last attempt before I hit "ignore".
Get to the point: what do you really want?
An answer to something?
You got actual answers and when faced with ANY criticism you get all hostile.
Clarify your thoughts or earn the label of troll.
Attempting to give benefit of the doubt here.
I am really feeling I am wasting my time NOW and it appears others do too, feel free to prove people wrong.
I think we have given this diversion all the attention that needs to be given and should return to our normal commentary about the state of the RRT Kickstarter, or the lack thereof.
A number of the posters to this thread have put a lot of time and effort into getting the word out in a constructive informative manner and I would hate to see it closed because of the actions of a few.
PB has a hard earned reputation in the gaming industry. Between the "Mechanoids in Space" coming soon for 20 years and most books on average (IIRC) taking 3-4 years past the forecasted dates, PB appears to have the most amazing procrastinators of any US based business.
After being banned back in '07 from their forums for simply mentioning concerns that KS had overstretched his commitment based on their delivery record, and letting NMI know my further thoughts, I was dumbfounded when I received a call from PB in 2015 asking for my CC. Evidently I had preordered a book in '06 and they couldn't charge my old card.
The only positive thing I could say about the company is that they keep good records - not of previous "updates ", but of customers CCs.
I feel for all of you who put out your hard earned money for a product and a vision, and have had someone figuratively smack your face for asking for a refund. The other tragedy is the spark that died in so many who have become disillusioned.
I'm not sure what KTG17's intent is, but I get a whiff of "The Macross and Mospeada stuff is superior, why are you wasting your time with this HG crap?"
Which really is the question we ask day to day. Most of us here, I assume, got introduced to Macross and the like through the means of HG's Robotech (I did, back when I lived in California during the 80's, on I think it was channel 46 - it blew my mind). I only learned about the original source material it was drawn from a couple of years back (during the KS campaign actually). Having been raised on Robotech, I found the source material and the subsequent material (Macross II, Macross Zero, Macross 7, etc.) confusing for a while - until I had the chance to watch the original, unaltered, undubbed version of Macross. Now that I'm familiar with it, I've come to believe that HG's Robotech is laughable, utter trash.
Unfortunately, HG has made it the only way us folks in the states can get hold of Macross stuff is through them, and this terrible kickstarter. Our only other option is try and get stuff via e-bay or (what I only recently discovered) Hobby Link Japan. Both of which are annoying methods that take a considerable amount of time (compared to running down to the local FLGS).
Would we take a better alternative? Sure we would. Would we like to dump HG & PB and have another company take over production? You betcha, in a heartbeat.
But Kevin at PB has our money, and won't give us our toys or acknowledge the project is truly dead. It's a schrodinger's cat scenario, with our money in the box instead of a cat.
So, generally we gather here to mock PB's "progress" in the vain hope some legal authority will take pity on us and sue PB into oblivion - if 2021 doesn't end this debacle for us.
We've long past actually playing the game around these parts because everyone who had interest stopped playing a few years ago when it became obvious that nothing else was coming out for the game and despite PB's promises of support for the game, that it was a hollow promise as well.
I don't mean to dredge up bad memories, or necro old posts, but how did this turn out? I remember hearing about this when it was first envisaged, although i didn't buy in. Then the 'robotech-style' epic started regarding actually delivering on pledges. Now - silence.
Is it as bad still as it looks? Or am i about to get the thread locked? I am genuinely curious how this turned out.
Torga_DW wrote: I don't mean to dredge up bad memories, or necro old posts, but how did this turn out? I remember hearing about this when it was first envisaged, although i didn't buy in. Then the 'robotech-style' epic started regarding actually delivering on pledges. Now - silence.
Is it as bad still as it looks? Or am i about to get the thread locked? I am genuinely curious how this turned out.
They say a picture is worth a thousand words..... Those 2 pics seems to sum it up. Which is a shame. I'm still listening to robotech music on youtube. But yeah, sad to hear that the mini game fell through. :(
Hrm, the short version would this, off the top of my head (and since you asked politely, unlike our other recent conversation);
*Note: this is heavily abridged, glossing over a ton of things large and small. These shenanigans have been going for about 4.5 years, we really could write a book on this shameful clusterfeth if we so desired.
The Kickstarter Campaign ran in early 2013, with a full delivery target of late 2013 (December). The statement released prior to the campaign said that Ninja Division would be doing most of the heavy lifting, PB were just the license holder.
When the campaign ended, literally the next day, Kevin Siembieda sent out an update noting that they were so confident that they could do it, that they might even deliver in November or even October.
While many will note how they had a bad feeling much earlier, I think the first major warning sign was when the Pledge Manager didn't open until July or so, and ended in early September. Going on for months, there were comments noting that delivery might slip back a little, January perhaps? Maybe February or March? But in Jan 2014 they admitted they were way behind, and would be splitting the project into 2 waves, both of which were to deliver that year, one in the middle and one at the end (give or take).
This proved to be a half truth.
During the prototyping stage, it became clear that these were not going to be 'half dozen piece figures', but scaled down mini-models. A single Battloid, roughly an inch and change tall, had something like two dozen pieces. The arms were each made up of at least 4 pieces! Per arm!
This caused... consternation.
There were some shenanigans around Gencon (we were promised to have the product first, repeatedly, and then they claimed they might sell some limited supply at Gencon to 'build hype and buzz!'), but due to shipping delays (there was a longshoreman's strike, a fire at the port, and they got held up in customs for quite a while, basically karma just pointed and laughed at them) it didn't happen. However, despite a container arriving in August, shipping to the broader backers didn't begin in earnest until October. Most North American backers got their stuff in the month or two that followed, but non-NA backers could end up waiting half a year or more.
So, a confident delivery target of late 2013 is now late 2014 to mid 2015 for a fraction of what we were owed.
2015 and heavily in 2016, there were fairly regular promises that 'things were heating up!', that the PB team were 'working like demons', and that RRT would be completed that year, no really, totally! We'd get a couple of renders or a couple of prototypes, and then silence punctuated by unreassuring reassurances that they totes were making progress, totally!
There have been a series of names attached to allegedly providing us information (and failing to do so). There have been flame wars and declarations of Legal Tsunamis pending. There have been lies, damned lies, and statistics.
The sad thing is that if they had just managed to do what they said they were going to do, we wouldn't be here. The models are fiddly to build, but people have managed to do good things with them all the same. The rules aren't great, from my reading, but seem workable, and some people have house ruled or moved to other systems that better fit their needs. So it's not that the models are terrible or the rules are unworkable, it's that none of the above are particularly great AND we've been lied to more times than can easily be counted.
Few but the 'true believers' actually think that it takes half a decade to produce 3 dozen'ish models. Hell, PB and ND managed to do the first dozen or so within about a year from models to prototypes to production to delivery of the first boxes.
Would it have ever been great? Probably not. Apparently PB took ND's rules and had them re-written to RPG them up some. But it would've been a niche product with nostalgic appeal and probably been fine vying for space with all the other niche minis games. Never a big dog, but plenty of companies do just fine identifying demand and catering to that user base. To this day, sales on eBay show that demand for Robotech/Macross/Whatever products exists in substantial quantities, plus Battletech and all the other spinoff uses one might find.
Instead, we have lies, hot air, a Giant History Of Everything And How PB Brought Anime to North America (June or July 2015 updates, it's 'a thing'), a suicide attempt after the lead on the Rifts Board Game tried to engage the backer comments section in one of the least advisable ways possible, and more.
Is it the biggest mess ever on Kickstarter? No. That we got anything puts it head and shoulders above the worst, but that's damning with faint praise at best. But in terms of campaigns pulling in ~$1.6 million from backers (assuming what Wayne said about getting maybe 10% extra in the pledge manager is true), it has been an ongoing disappointment, and a masterclass on how not to engage with backers, how to fail to support a game line, and how to take a tidal wave of nostalgia and good intentions and turn it into a quagmire of toxicity and frustration.
As I noted above, I've missed or intentionally skipped a ton here, but off hand, as I settle into the office and work slowly on my coffee, I think that covers a good portion of it.
Strange.
I know a guy who started up this "SkyCon" in my area.
I was asked to host any game I had miniatures ready for, a bit too busy a time for me at the moment.
http://www.skycongames.com/ It was brought to my attention that PB had an interest in the event.
Confirmed at the link that he managed to get Palladium Books on as a sponsor.
I think I will ask how that managed to happen.
Oddly, one of the bigger gaming shops in the area is carrying RRT again.
It does not sell with any speed, but does get sold.
Might be a chance to find those rare individuals who are buying the stuff.
On the list of shenanigans, the GenCon "vote" (non-responses would be counted as "It's fine to sell at GenCon") and the "the first containers were nothing but Core boxes" meaning that very few KS pledges could have possibly been processed out of that initial supply (the "sweet spot" pledge level had extras not in the Core) seem worth calling out still. Despite their promises, they were clearly hell-bent on selling things, likely for near-retail prices, at GenCon.
It does beg the odd thought though. If PB had managed to not enrage karma, would those sales have 1) sold through some of their (over)stock and 2) actually generated a small bit of buzz to move more of it and make it less of an insanely stupid maneuver to have ordered so much? Kind of moot now since the horse is out of the barn, but it beats the nothing that PB delivers to talk about.
It didn't do Kevvy any favors to treat the backers like dirt and it may have killed a few potential sales but overall I think Unca Kevvy vastly overestimated the value of Robotech as an IP and failed to realize probably 90% of us nostalgic suckers GOT IN on the Kickfailer. Kickfail was new, shiny, exciting, we were unaware it offered no protection against non-delivery and completion of projects, and we went all in. Then the models started getting shown and they were pretty sub par. Most people not involved in the Kickfail thanked God they had decided to wait for retail so they didn't buy anything. The Gencon debacle and then release to review was a big sigh.
Reports come in, the models most suck and are too fiddly for what they are, chorus line dancing battloids, seamstress Destroids, Casey's rules are enormously meh.
There was no buzz, no excitement, even Unca Kevvy seemed disinterested. Okay, more pissed that he made himself look like a horse's arse to EVERYONE and the sweet, sweet apple pie was that he unfurled his total jerk flag and karma bit him HARD. All that posturing that he was going to do what HE wanted anyways and screw the backers that made the 'dream happen' he was going to make big, big Robotech Bux at Gencon and... *sad trombone music* Customs killed Unca Kevvy's momentum and his butt was stuck making boxes to ship to backers anyways and he's all sore about it.
Poor Unca Kevvy, he busted a blood vessel screwing the backers, failed to screw backers, gets resentful towards the backers, fails completely to promote his game expecting the screwed backers to do that FOR HIM, builds further resentment because backers go 'meh wave two?'
Unca Kevvy probably hates us as we inadvertently made him make HIMSELF look like the incompetent dullard he is, won't let him hide his failure in a shallow grave, keep demanding he stay the course when he wants to change to a different project, and all Palladium hype for the past four years is how much they suck and have technically stolen $1.44 million dollars from over 5,000 people.
I think that is a great question Krisnath, as to whether the plan to sell at Gencon, if it had come off, resulted in a positive outcome overall.
My view is probably it would not have , because PB and more importantly Kevin were and still are not up to the job in hand.
After Gencon they will have still had their hands full trying to get Wave 1 out to the US, nevermind those in Europe or further afield. By the time that was settled, probably following the same timelines, then Kev would have looked back to see what is next, my suspiscion is that he would have been pushing sales of the core and doing little else, in other words the situation will not have changed.
Sales at Gencon might have drawn in a few more players but this was never going to be a smash hit that everyone wanted and the subsequent lack of support and the new shiny stuff coming out each month would have relegated RTT to the shelf.
Could it still be saved even in a very limited way undoubtedly, as Talizvar pointed out there probably is still a small number of people who play even now. If Wave 2 had arrived in a timely fashion and with it the chance of moving omto other eras I suspect that number would have been far higher
Sadly for us, Kevin - although he will never ever admit to being wrong - screwed this one up royally and even now continues to somehow mismanage (usually from his egocentric disdain) every slight oppotunity to take even the slightest step forward.
Also not mentioned are the Gencon exclusives (which are no longer exclusives, as they're desperate to get rid of the rest of the stock), as well as the failed attempt at conventional units (working with another company, who apparently realized a little too late it was a bad idea to partner with PB).
... and the realization that while the Battletech scale mecha works for the Macross line, if they ever got to Mospeada/New Generation/Sentinels/Shadow Chronicles mecha, everything was going to be way too small. Not that there's any real concern they WILL get that far, but it was another face palm that whacked them up the side of the head.
Stormonu wrote: I'm not sure what KTG17's intent is, but I get a whiff of "The Macross and Mospeada stuff is superior, why are you wasting your time with this HG crap?"
Which really is the question we ask day to day. Most of us here, I assume, got introduced to Macross and the like through the means of HG's Robotech (I did, back when I lived in California during the 80's, on I think it was channel 46 - it blew my mind). I only learned about the original source material it was drawn from a couple of years back (during the KS campaign actually). Having been raised on Robotech, I found the source material and the subsequent material (Macross II, Macross Zero, Macross 7, etc.) confusing for a while - until I had the chance to watch the original, unaltered, undubbed version of Macross. Now that I'm familiar with it, I've come to believe that HG's Robotech is laughable, utter trash.
Unfortunately, HG has made it the only way us folks in the states can get hold of Macross stuff is through them, and this terrible kickstarter. Our only other option is try and get stuff via e-bay or (what I only recently discovered) Hobby Link Japan. Both of which are annoying methods that take a considerable amount of time (compared to running down to the local FLGS).
Would we take a better alternative? Sure we would. Would we like to dump HG & PB and have another company take over production? You betcha, in a heartbeat.
But Kevin at PB has our money, and won't give us our toys or acknowledge the project is truly dead. It's a schrodinger's cat scenario, with our money in the box instead of a cat.
So, generally we gather here to mock PB's "progress" in the vain hope some legal authority will take pity on us and sue PB into oblivion - if 2021 doesn't end this debacle for us.
We've long past actually playing the game around these parts because everyone who had interest stopped playing a few years ago when it became obvious that nothing else was coming out for the game and despite PB's promises of support for the game, that it was a hollow promise as well.
Best reply to any of my posts. Very informative.
For those who have yet to answer my poll, you still have time.
Forar wrote: Hrm, the short version would this, off the top of my head (and since you asked politely, unlike our other recent conversation);
Spoiler:
*Note: this is heavily abridged, glossing over a ton of things large and small. These shenanigans have been going for about 4.5 years, we really could write a book on this shameful clusterfeth if we so desired.
The Kickstarter Campaign ran in early 2013, with a full delivery target of late 2013 (December). The statement released prior to the campaign said that Ninja Division would be doing most of the heavy lifting, PB were just the license holder.
When the campaign ended, literally the next day, Kevin Siembieda sent out an update noting that they were so confident that they could do it, that they might even deliver in November or even October.
While many will note how they had a bad feeling much earlier, I think the first major warning sign was when the Pledge Manager didn't open until July or so, and ended in early September. Going on for months, there were comments noting that delivery might slip back a little, January perhaps? Maybe February or March? But in Jan 2014 they admitted they were way behind, and would be splitting the project into 2 waves, both of which were to deliver that year, one in the middle and one at the end (give or take).
This proved to be a half truth.
During the prototyping stage, it became clear that these were not going to be 'half dozen piece figures', but scaled down mini-models. A single Battloid, roughly an inch and change tall, had something like two dozen pieces. The arms were each made up of at least 4 pieces! Per arm!
This caused... consternation.
There were some shenanigans around Gencon (we were promised to have the product first, repeatedly, and then they claimed they might sell some limited supply at Gencon to 'build hype and buzz!'), but due to shipping delays (there was a longshoreman's strike, a fire at the port, and they got held up in customs for quite a while, basically karma just pointed and laughed at them) it didn't happen. However, despite a container arriving in August, shipping to the broader backers didn't begin in earnest until October. Most North American backers got their stuff in the month or two that followed, but non-NA backers could end up waiting half a year or more.
So, a confident delivery target of late 2013 is now late 2014 to mid 2015 for a fraction of what we were owed.
2015 and heavily in 2016, there were fairly regular promises that 'things were heating up!', that the PB team were 'working like demons', and that RRT would be completed that year, no really, totally! We'd get a couple of renders or a couple of prototypes, and then silence punctuated by unreassuring reassurances that they totes were making progress, totally!
There have been a series of names attached to allegedly providing us information (and failing to do so). There have been flame wars and declarations of Legal Tsunamis pending. There have been lies, damned lies, and statistics.
The sad thing is that if they had just managed to do what they said they were going to do, we wouldn't be here. The models are fiddly to build, but people have managed to do good things with them all the same. The rules aren't great, from my reading, but seem workable, and some people have house ruled or moved to other systems that better fit their needs. So it's not that the models are terrible or the rules are unworkable, it's that none of the above are particularly great AND we've been lied to more times than can easily be counted.
Few but the 'true believers' actually think that it takes half a decade to produce 3 dozen'ish models. Hell, PB and ND managed to do the first dozen or so within about a year from models to prototypes to production to delivery of the first boxes.
Would it have ever been great? Probably not. Apparently PB took ND's rules and had them re-written to RPG them up some. But it would've been a niche product with nostalgic appeal and probably been fine vying for space with all the other niche minis games. Never a big dog, but plenty of companies do just fine identifying demand and catering to that user base. To this day, sales on eBay show that demand for Robotech/Macross/Whatever products exists in substantial quantities, plus Battletech and all the other spinoff uses one might find.
Instead, we have lies, hot air, a Giant History Of Everything And How PB Brought Anime to North America (June or July 2015 updates, it's 'a thing'), a suicide attempt after the lead on the Rifts Board Game tried to engage the backer comments section in one of the least advisable ways possible, and more.
Is it the biggest mess ever on Kickstarter? No. That we got anything puts it head and shoulders above the worst, but that's damning with faint praise at best. But in terms of campaigns pulling in ~$1.6 million from backers (assuming what Wayne said about getting maybe 10% extra in the pledge manager is true), it has been an ongoing disappointment, and a masterclass on how not to engage with backers, how to fail to support a game line, and how to take a tidal wave of nostalgia and good intentions and turn it into a quagmire of toxicity and frustration.
As I noted above, I've missed or intentionally skipped a ton here, but off hand, as I settle into the office and work slowly on my coffee, I think that covers a good portion of it.
As always, Forar gives an excellent summary of the situation.
tl;dr - Palladium took our money in a bait-and-switch scheme, delivered part, and isn't doing a damn thing about the rest.
Krinsath wrote: On the list of shenanigans, the GenCon "vote" (non-responses would be counted as "It's fine to sell at GenCon") and the "the first containers were nothing but Core boxes" meaning that very few KS pledges could have possibly been processed out of that initial supply (the "sweet spot" pledge level had extras not in the Core) seem worth calling out still. Despite their promises, they were clearly hell-bent on selling things, likely for near-retail prices, at GenCon.
The GenCon vote still a point of debate in my eyes. I get why the question was asked, and the reasoning behind it, but I don't get the 'non-answer is an okay to go ahead and sell.' GenCon should have been a win, but PB didn't come prepared and it bit them (big shock there). They were looking on capitalizing on their return, and when word got out there were problems it comes as no surprise the response was variation on 'meh'.
It does beg the odd thought though. If PB had managed to not enrage karma, would those sales have 1) sold through some of their (over)stock and 2) actually generated a small bit of buzz to move more of it and make it less of an insanely stupid maneuver to have ordered so much? Kind of moot now since the horse is out of the barn, but it beats the nothing that PB delivers to talk about.
One of the things I had commented to my circle of gaming friends was that, at the time, without a real preview of the rules (not counting the video demo that was done at the time) and a complete look at all line, this game was clearly going to bank heavily on nostalgia and on Ninja Divisions' reputation. Well... nostalgia only gets you so far... and PB already had a bad reputation in the RPG industry. Saying they were going to keep out of it and let Ninja Division do the heavy lifting seemed to be the saving grace to getting this project going. The rest is very well documented history on what not to do. (You would think they would learn, but this is a company that embodies the definition of crazy).
So aside from so now very interesting recent remarks from Ninja John on the matter, we really haven't gotten the entire side from Ninja Division on what went sideways with this venture. It'd be nice to hear from their side what the issues were and how it was handled. Alas we will likely never know.
PB needs to get their gak together, own their mistake, and make every reasonable effort to getting this finished (I know, I know... we've been saying that for years). Or they need to understand that anything they do ongoing, this Kickstarter will always be brought up on why they fail.
Forar wrote: Hrm, the short version would this, off the top of my head (and since you asked politely, unlike our other recent conversation);
Spoiler:
*Note: this is heavily abridged, glossing over a ton of things large and small. These shenanigans have been going for about 4.5 years, we really could write a book on this shameful clusterfeth if we so desired.
The Kickstarter Campaign ran in early 2013, with a full delivery target of late 2013 (December). The statement released prior to the campaign said that Ninja Division would be doing most of the heavy lifting, PB were just the license holder.
When the campaign ended, literally the next day, Kevin Siembieda sent out an update noting that they were so confident that they could do it, that they might even deliver in November or even October.
While many will note how they had a bad feeling much earlier, I think the first major warning sign was when the Pledge Manager didn't open until July or so, and ended in early September. Going on for months, there were comments noting that delivery might slip back a little, January perhaps? Maybe February or March? But in Jan 2014 they admitted they were way behind, and would be splitting the project into 2 waves, both of which were to deliver that year, one in the middle and one at the end (give or take).
This proved to be a half truth.
During the prototyping stage, it became clear that these were not going to be 'half dozen piece figures', but scaled down mini-models. A single Battloid, roughly an inch and change tall, had something like two dozen pieces. The arms were each made up of at least 4 pieces! Per arm!
This caused... consternation.
There were some shenanigans around Gencon (we were promised to have the product first, repeatedly, and then they claimed they might sell some limited supply at Gencon to 'build hype and buzz!'), but due to shipping delays (there was a longshoreman's strike, a fire at the port, and they got held up in customs for quite a while, basically karma just pointed and laughed at them) it didn't happen. However, despite a container arriving in August, shipping to the broader backers didn't begin in earnest until October. Most North American backers got their stuff in the month or two that followed, but non-NA backers could end up waiting half a year or more.
So, a confident delivery target of late 2013 is now late 2014 to mid 2015 for a fraction of what we were owed.
2015 and heavily in 2016, there were fairly regular promises that 'things were heating up!', that the PB team were 'working like demons', and that RRT would be completed that year, no really, totally! We'd get a couple of renders or a couple of prototypes, and then silence punctuated by unreassuring reassurances that they totes were making progress, totally!
There have been a series of names attached to allegedly providing us information (and failing to do so). There have been flame wars and declarations of Legal Tsunamis pending. There have been lies, damned lies, and statistics.
The sad thing is that if they had just managed to do what they said they were going to do, we wouldn't be here. The models are fiddly to build, but people have managed to do good things with them all the same. The rules aren't great, from my reading, but seem workable, and some people have house ruled or moved to other systems that better fit their needs. So it's not that the models are terrible or the rules are unworkable, it's that none of the above are particularly great AND we've been lied to more times than can easily be counted.
Few but the 'true believers' actually think that it takes half a decade to produce 3 dozen'ish models. Hell, PB and ND managed to do the first dozen or so within about a year from models to prototypes to production to delivery of the first boxes.
Would it have ever been great? Probably not. Apparently PB took ND's rules and had them re-written to RPG them up some. But it would've been a niche product with nostalgic appeal and probably been fine vying for space with all the other niche minis games. Never a big dog, but plenty of companies do just fine identifying demand and catering to that user base. To this day, sales on eBay show that demand for Robotech/Macross/Whatever products exists in substantial quantities, plus Battletech and all the other spinoff uses one might find.
Instead, we have lies, hot air, a Giant History Of Everything And How PB Brought Anime to North America (June or July 2015 updates, it's 'a thing'), a suicide attempt after the lead on the Rifts Board Game tried to engage the backer comments section in one of the least advisable ways possible, and more.
Is it the biggest mess ever on Kickstarter? No. That we got anything puts it head and shoulders above the worst, but that's damning with faint praise at best. But in terms of campaigns pulling in ~$1.6 million from backers (assuming what Wayne said about getting maybe 10% extra in the pledge manager is true), it has been an ongoing disappointment, and a masterclass on how not to engage with backers, how to fail to support a game line, and how to take a tidal wave of nostalgia and good intentions and turn it into a quagmire of toxicity and frustration.
As I noted above, I've missed or intentionally skipped a ton here, but off hand, as I settle into the office and work slowly on my coffee, I think that covers a good portion of it.
As always, Forar gives an excellent summary of the situation.
tl;dr - Palladium took our money in a bait-and-switch scheme, delivered part, and isn't doing a damn thing about the rest.
I must admit that was a fair bit of work and I would also agree that is an excellent summary.
Quite worthy to be added to the beginning of the thread for those who drop in and do not like to read overly much.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I also twice pointed out, while you were whinging on about everyone else being effectively "mean", you hadn't bothered to respond to those who, like myself, actually answered your "poll" at the point in time.
Were the rules for Robotech Tactics ever put online as a PDF? I am curious to see them, but not really interested in the models, and do not want to give Palladium any money.
Soundtheory wrote: Were the rules for Robotech Tactics ever put online as a PDF? I am curious to see them, but not really interested in the models, and do not want to give Palladium any money.
Nope, no PDF. Another broken promise in a long dang line of broken promises.
As others have said, the rules are adequate, but there's not a lot of originality, and there's several large yet meaningless complications.
I would have linked the original rules overview, but it was pulled a long time ago.
And while the PDF linked on the campaign's front page is defunct, I can't recall it being that much different than the final result, at least substantively. It might have been "hot garbage" or whatever the phrase used was, but the core system remained, and so I'm skeptical of the claim that it had to be completely rewritten.
Doesn't help their case that taking someone else's work, tweaking things, putting a shiny veneer on it, and then claiming it as your own, is something that Carmen has apparently done twice at least twice. Once before, with one or more of the Powers Unlimited books, I believe. And once with Mike Arnold's conventional vehicles rules. There are claims that Kevin also does this to some extent, but those are harder to corroborate. The claims against Carmen are significantly more solid.
Soundtheory wrote: Were the rules for Robotech Tactics ever put online as a PDF? I am curious to see them, but not really interested in the models, and do not want to give Palladium any money.
Weeeeell, Bad_Syntax was given one of the first copies and scanned all the pages and made it available on his dropbox account for a while for the rest of us to peruse - insinuating he'd gotten permission to do so. I don't think it's out there anymore, and it was just pictures of the pages, not a file dump of the original rulebook.
Yeah and I really have to question the companies that are taking HG up on licensing right now. 4 years may seem like a lot of time but given that you are looking at a year give or take at minimum to get something to market it's not a lot of time to recoup on your investment and hopefully make a profit.
If they are looking at it from a one and done scenario it could make sense but if the companies are hoping for extended success and expansions it seems like a mistake to me.
So... that link eventually leads to a company who's main page links to a kickstarter that was cancelled a few days ago because it was clearly not going to meet it's funding.
I don't know what to make of that. Just... interesting is all.
I almost feel sorry for the guy..There is so many other licences out there that he could have linked to.. . If he does a kick starter I don't think he will get many backers because
Palladium has ruined most of the good will towards any Robotech game.
After reading the board game geek page it seems that most of the production staff is relatives.. not a good start, plus the game cover art is borderline amateur.. If he wants to do it
right... Hire a few professionals of the business (writers / artist) and have the product ready to go before doing anything else publicly . If he is still at the concept stage and is not
being released in the next few months people, will just loose interest before anything ever comes out. Last I heard it was something like six to nine weeks for an announcement window..
Anything more or less time from announcement to release can hurt your sales...Or make you look like you don't know what your doing... that's not good either..
So we are just a few days away (next Tuesday) for Scott's next update..
The current RTT kickstarter comment section is full of people just flat out asking for a refund...
I am sure he reads the comment section because there is a few "removed by kickstarter" postings.
He will never address the elephant in the room and never will.. I am sure there is some law that Kevin
knows about, advised by his lawyer .. some type of limit of time before he can just walk away..
But the good news is, this will make him very popular at gaming conventions and other public events..
If your are going to upset a large group of people all at once .. Stealing a million dollars from Five Thousand
people is a good starting number..
There is a very few people that don't know about the train wreak this has become... I don't know who would
buy into it either even if they did by some miracle produce wave two.
Genoside07 wrote: But the good news is, this will make him very popular at gaming conventions and other public events..
If your are going to upset a large group of people all at once .. Stealing a million dollars from Five Thousand
people is a good starting number..
I'm not sure evidence is present for it to be that big a deal.
Kevin and co have been attending Gencon regularly for quite a while, definitely predating these shenanigans.
While I'm sure some terse or uncomfortable conversations have been had, they certainly don't seem scared off or overly traumatized/rejected fro their participation in this fiasco.
Yes, volunteering to be a spokesman for a much disliked company is asking for a little gak to be flung ones way, but I think it'd also be misplaced to somehow hold him accountable to an ire worthy level when the progenitors of all this gak are standing right there.
Promises to right the ship and whatnot are fine, that's the job he has been hired to do, but nobody believes him, so believing it'd have much of an impact when he fails to do the impossible seems kinda 'meh'.
Maybe I'm getting softer in my old age, or just more realistic. We've never had a dozen backers upend their useless core boxes on the PB booth in protest, or something similarly extreme. I doubt his work here (whatever that may be) will cause much of a ripple either.
Forar wrote: Maybe I'm getting softer in my old age, or just more realistic. We've never had a dozen backers upend their useless core boxes on the PB booth in protest, or something similarly extreme. I doubt his work here (whatever that may be) will cause much of a ripple either.
I would suggest a more practical reason why things are not as extreme as one would like to see with Palladium at Conventions:
Why risk your day to see all kinds of cool stuff just to be able to give Kevin a piece of your mind?
Tearing him a new one would allow him to make a huge fuss, get confrontational back and possibly get you kicked out since he is the "special guest".
It is easier just to see how barren their booth is.
I found any time I hovered near it, it gave someone courage to come buy and ask "who are they and what do they do?".
I feel like saying "Run! It is too late for me, pretend you did not see them, make no eye contact and run!".
That's actually the crux of my point; people haven't cared enough to garner the ire of a convention/security previously with very notable figureheads, I doubt they'll do it to some mouthpiece who'll probably be replaced in the next year or less.
The notion that his work on the project might negatively impact him was the initial assertion, one that I don't think we have evidence for given that Kevin and Wayne have been neck deep in this crap for half a decade or so, and they seem to attend one of the biggest gaming cons in the world with barely a blip.
I think this is also probably more due to the fact the PB is also largely considered insignificant in the area that they think is their forte - namely RPGs.
So they are probably used to coasting on past glories, getting 'special guest' invites due to said past glories, and, for the most part, getting ignored at any conventions they attend anyway.
As previously noted, it isn't 'worth' causing a fuss at a convention with them and getting kicked out, just like it isn't 'worth' the time and money it would take to sue PB over this KS and that's why that isn't happening either.
Actually, the whole 'where is the money, Scott?' thing is mostly to do with demanding an accounting of where our $1.4m (plus backerkit addons) went.
Pretty much everyone is aware that PB is a straw man as far as suing or getting refunds is concerned.
For my part, I'd like to know where the mistakes were made. It's unlikely I'd do any more than contribute to a class action suit someone else started. I have better things to do with my time. I do think that attitude in a lot of the stung backers is the only thing that's saved PB to date.
winterdyne wrote: For my part, I'd like to know where the mistakes were made. It's unlikely I'd do any more than contribute to a class action suit someone else started. I have better things to do with my time. I do think that attitude in a lot of the stung backers is the only thing that's saved PB to date.
All you need to do is look no further than: Kevin Siembieda. The decisions were ultimately his, and this is where we are. I do not see anything that saves PB in this matter as everything they have done has only continued the frustration of backers like myself. The continued delay continues to cause problems.
Siembieda needs to be held to task. If there is a better way to do so, I'd like to hear it.
It's just speculation* by backers at this point, until PB are up front about it** and say 'we ran out of money at this point, because this call was made by PB / ND / whoever'.
*: With a lot of anecdotal evidence and very easily argued logically.
**: Extremely unlikely to occur voluntarily. Most likely way to force it is discover phase of a class action suit, however that needs money throwing at it in large quantities, which would likely not be recoverable in any case, as PB are not likely to actually have the money.
This one is most likely doomed to limp along, having can (x) kicked down the road until a suitable scapegoat can be identified at which time a pseudo-admission of 'guilt' will be given, there will be no money left, allegedly non-cooked books will be show 'explaining' where it all went and PB will serve as a Kickstarter Cautionary Tale for the ages...
Which is unfortunate. I heard recently (as i understand it) that harmony gold's robotech license expires in 2020 (please correct me if i'm wrong). Given the bad blood they've acquired over the years with the sources (like macross), this might have been the last best chance to produce a robotech minis game before the whole thing disappears.
Torga_DW wrote: Which is unfortunate. I heard recently (as i understand it) that harmony gold's robotech license expires in 2020 (please correct me if i'm wrong). Given the bad blood they've acquired over the years with the sources (like macross), this might have been the last best chance to produce a robotech minis game before the whole thing disappears.
Torga_DW wrote: Which is unfortunate. I heard recently (as i understand it) that harmony gold's robotech license expires in 2020 (please correct me if i'm wrong). Given the bad blood they've acquired over the years with the sources (like macross), this might have been the last best chance to produce a robotech minis game before the whole thing disappears.
Well, at least i was close and fairly correct. I used to have the box set of robotech (lost it the last time i moved), and i still think i have the shadow chronicles movie floating around somewhere (lost the 'proper' cover when i lent it to a friend :( it's sitting in a cd-computer jewel case atm :( ). But yeah i've basically got just over 3 years to decide if i want to get it again before the apocalypse happens (and to be fair, robotech the series hasn't really aged well). Robotech may well not exist at all in 4 years time, which makes the minis game more of a shame given how it turned out.
Ouch, finding I am spending a fair bit of money "completing" my RRT game.
At least the various models I will have all in relative scale and I can use or adapt whatever rules seem best.
Other than the principle of the thing: taking money with no intent on exchange for that money, I can let things go a bit better.
I REALLY have to thank the various artists / fans who are doing this side work to fill the model void that Palladium Books has so utterly failed on.
It still boggles my mind they get that wave 1 out, kinda the "potatoes" of the steak dinner... filling, tastes ok but as asked before: "where's the beef??".
I believe utterly anyone who develops product I like SHOULD get my money.
This mess I unfortunately am making an exception... they have my money already right?
Well, we've been at this gak for nearly 5 years now, at least there's a finite amount of time on the clock.
It shall be so sad, such a betrayal, a Crisis of Treachery Regarding Intellectual Property Rights. PB will have to share another giant summer 2015 style missive, declaring how truly sad they were, how they worked like demons for years, but it was all for naught.
What? Give refunds from the remaining money? Oh, so sorry, but there just isn't anything left. Between all they spent on wave one (just the backer's stuff, that is, all that extra stock was totally paid for with their own finances), and the extra costs for the molds, and the extra costs in shipping. All those renders and prototypes and everything adds up. The advertising, etc, etc.
We've been reading this bullgak for so long, I think we could probably write the Update of Great Disappointment ourselves.
It is funny though, just how much money PB has been leaving on the table. From all the people showing off resin cast figures and 3D printed parts, the toys bought in their place, the custom work done, the community has spent thousands, maybe tens of thousands or more on stuff they should've been able to buy (if not already own). We'll never know how that actually might have shaken out, but it speaks to the passion the community has that some people have bought or made things they technically already own.
$1,442,312 raised by the kickstarter (yes, more with backerkit but bear with me).
Say, half got spent for wave 1.
= $721,156
Now if that money was invested (try not to laugh), at 3% interest compounded monthly for 4 years:
= $812,979.37 total
= $91,823.37 interest made.
I would really like to see if the money was doing anything over that time period in those completely truthful records kept.
They could say they were waiting 11 years (~$280,000 interest made) until the money was back up over a million again to complete the project!
But, it would really be only 1% due to 2% inflation so an equivalent of ~$84,000.
How much is Scott making these days?
Would he count as RRT direct expense?
Ah but if RTT monies were invested in safe interest bearing accounts, you want to bet that PB will only report that only the original investment is for RTT. The extra monies were incidental and not part (at least directly) of KS funds so they could be used as they wished.
Maybe Kevin decided to reinvest in that srefire winner gRifts the boardgame?
The Palladium gig cannot be Scooter's only job. You can't EAT Rifters and Unca Kevvy's good intentions to cut you a check at some undisclosed time in the future. If Scooter is getting a regular paycheck it has to be coming out of the dwindling Robotech bux supply.
Maybe Unca Kev likes to pay Scooter to yell at him about things that Scooter doesn't have any control over. Scooter's regurgitating Simbeidanese so it's not like he's WORKING on the Robotech debacle just rewording the same garbage Unca Kevayne has been throwing out for years now.
Forar wrote: Even as someone who has been giving them gak for years, I have a hard time taking this childish nickname stuff seriously.
Not that anyone cares, but I can't say I'm glad to see it move from the KS comments section to here.
I'm not glad to see it spread at all. Nor am I particularly thrilled it directed to Scott. He can only do so much with the position that he is in. I have my issues with the way this was handled, but my ire is directed at the one ultimately responsible: Kevin Siembieda. The remarks being directed at Scott, are not warranted. Let's face it, Carmen may have dug his own grave but Kevin didn't need to parade his personal information to the masses to be used as more fodder later on. So if Scott decides to bail, and this is a good reason as any, it will give Kevin fodder to excuse more delays.
I'll cut Scott some slack, life happens, move on. But I won't attack or crucify him for separating his work life from his personal life.
I don't wish ill on Scott, but if he was the business man Kevin claimed he was, the last update would never happen.
They should already have the frame work on what was going to be sent out mid last week and with today's technology
He could do most of his work on his smart phone from a bathroom stall in a hospital or funeral home if needed.
Clearly he is remote access from Texas, what is the difference doing something across town instead. Most successful
business don't close for any reason.. If it was something truly bad in his life.. Kevin or someone should step in and
post the information already agreed upon.
I think this is our first sign of Scott giving up...
He is already on update number nine.. that means he has not had any real information in 4.5 months. In most companies
with hired in senior staff decision maker or major project holders only have 18 months to get it implemented or out the door they go...
Plus both Kevin and Scott admitted he worked there for a few months before saying anything.
So we are close to 8 months in to "Scott's Project" and still have nothing to show for it. If I worked for a company that
had product orders from customers and paid for and can not show any type of improvement in six months.. Fan Friend or not, I would
be out the door on my own..
Personal isues are irrelevant. I neither need, nor want to know about them as a customer / backer.
All I see (with that very focussed viewpoint) is that an update has been delayed to us, indicating that there is no contingency or plan in place to pick up Scott's duties if for whatever reason he is unable to perform them, that no progress has been made since wave 1 shipped and there is no indication of any progress being made that hasn't been put forward before and proven itself to be nothing.
I don't know, I referred to him as Scott for like the first couple updates but he quickly slid into a puppet I lovingly nicknamed Scooter P. Vespa because his opening salvo was how he'd earn our trust and completely failed on every level. He's getting a paycheck of some sort, even if it's old Rifters and Star Wars action figures so he's getting compensated for his time and energy, unlike every backer of this dumpster fire. According to Unca Kevvy, we already got our full compensation but whatever. If Scooter had one iota of professionalism and showed himself as a firm hand as a project lead I'd probably still call him Scott. Unfortunately Scooter has proven to be a Siembieda puppet with Unca Kev's hand so far up his ass he can't speak his own words.
Childish? Yeah, but it eases my utter disappointment in yet another empty promise speaking Palldium fanfriend pretending to be a professional.
I have a problem with empathy in my day-to-day relations as it is. I have moved beyond even feigning empathy for Kevin and his cronies, to the point I have come to feel anything bad that happens to them anymore is kharmic retribution.
That said, I find it mystifying that the gist of the update couldn't have been prepared already, but it's pretty much moot anyways - there's only so many ways to say "we're dead in the water".
Given the Impending Crisis Of Intellectual Property Licensing via HG via (X), we know that the can....can and will be kicked down the road until...2021?
But honestly, I can see HG getting the license renewed - "Robotech" is just about a dead property anyway. Especially now, with PB's bungling of this Kickstarter.
The license holder will weigh some money from HG vs. 'unsure' and/or 'no' money from...no one else wanting it?
Is there enough demand for this line and associated things for them to go it alone in the USA at this point?
Given the Impending Crisis Of Intellectual Property Licensing via HG via (X), we know that the can....can and will be kicked down the road until...2021?
But honestly, I can see HG getting the license renewed - "Robotech" is just about a dead property anyway. Especially now, with PB's bungling of this Kickstarter.
The license holder will weigh some money from HG vs. 'unsure' and/or 'no' money from...no one else wanting it?
Is there enough demand for this line and associated things for them to go it alone in the USA at this point?
"Casey" appears to be a derogatory nickname for Carmen Bellaire, in much the same way Scooter is used. I don't know why, I don't see how it's funny, but that appears to be the origin.
I can't see HG getting the licensed renewed, but not for the reasons named (the hostility between the franchises), but for the overlap that would result in marketing. Because that's the key issue. The Robotech license as it stands now, excludes mutual promotion. It's the reason Macross isn't available through normal channels. So we don't know what the Japanese IP holders think of the market opening up.
I don't think Macross will be the smash hit some fans might think it is, but the potential for toys and things of that nature to be open to the US and other western markets, might make them hesitant to renew the older franchise, at least initially. After a year or two of open market, maybe the licensing fee would be a factor in reconsideration, but I don't think it'll be an uninterrupted licensing issue.
There's also the movie. Having a singular license under the control of one company, opens that up a lot. And I can't see any company holding the IP to want another company like Harmony Gold able to modify the IP and potentially corrupt it's value. It's one thing for the Japanese company to want a US distributor, it's another for them to give them creative control like they've had.
Yeah, Casey demonstrated the skills he had to offer to save the Robotech disaster. After his board game was done in Cleopatra 2025 he'd totally have turned his attention onto Robotech. At least he demonstrated he had nothing to bring the project and his promises to 'save Robotech' were as empty as Scooter's updates. Even if Casey's Kickstarter had worked he's have been involved drawing on cocktail napkins for years and completely unable to even look at Robotech much less guide the trash barge into dock somewhere.
JohnHwangDD wrote: "Casey" is Carmen's new name on KS, after he riled up the RRT backers in the RRTKS. Dude didn't even have the balls to keep his name.
....? Wow. So I assume if he ever gets his act together and re-starts his KS campaign, he'll have to do it under an assumed name?
There's Carmen the board game designer and then there's "Casey" the guy who threatens backers of Kickstarter projects that he feels will have a negative impact on his "dream" of being a big league game designer. It's not a nickname but a lame attempt at Carmen to cover his social bungling by chaning his name on Kickstarter so links don't go to Carmen but the mysterious "Casey". I call him "Casey" in kind of a "won't get fooled again" kind of way. Carmen is the one that decided on the Casey nickname, we've just kind of run with his course of action.
But honestly, I can see HG getting the license renewed - "Robotech" is just about a dead property anyway. Especially now, with PB's bungling of this Kickstarter.
The license holder will weigh some money from HG vs. 'unsure' and/or 'no' money from...no one else wanting it?
Is there enough demand for this line and associated things for them to go it alone in the USA at this point?
From my understanding, it CAN'T be kicked down the road. Tatsunoko can only license the cartoon itself (minus some 41 characters/items) - for DVD/on-air display, but not merchandising rights for toys, games, etc. Meaning PB would not be able to continue producing RPG products nor the tabletop game rules nor models.
TwoGunBob wrote: There's Carmen the board game designer and then there's "Casey" the guy who threatens backers of Kickstarter projects that he feels will have a negative impact on his "dream" of being a big league game designer. It's not a nickname but a lame attempt at Carmen to cover his social bungling by chaning his name on Kickstarter so links don't go to Carmen but the mysterious "Casey". I call him "Casey" in kind of a "won't get fooled again" kind of way. Carmen is the one that decided on the Casey nickname, we've just kind of run with his course of action.
Where has "Casey" been makign appearances? Since I don't pay attention to Facebook, is that the spot?
"Casey" appears to be a derogatory nickname for Carmen Bellaire,
Let's be perfectly fething clear that "Casey" brought that upon himself when he changed his name on Kickstarter to "Casey". That was entirely his doing, and he deserves no sympathy for his poor choices, only scorn, derision and mockery.
Casey wrote:Hello Everyone
I am Carmen Bellaire, I have started my own gaming company called Rogue Heroes, and as most of you know I will be doing a Kickstarter for a board game based on the Rifts IP.
"Casey" appears to be a derogatory nickname for Carmen Bellaire,
Let's be perfectly fething clear that "Casey" brought that upon himself when he changed his name on Kickstarter to "Casey". That was entirely his doing, and he deserves no sympathy for his poor choices, only scorn, derision and mockery.
Casey wrote:Hello Everyone
I am Carmen Bellaire, I have started my own gaming company called Rogue Heroes, and as most of you know I will be doing a Kickstarter for a board game based on the Rifts IP.
Hmm.... I could have sworn he used his real name during that back and forth that cost him a crapload of credibility. And that it happened after the fact, so that he could both move on from the incident, and start up his own project without it being linked back. EDIT: The first being understandable, the second being an obvious pathetic attempt, because as you point out, he names himself in that first post.
I do know that when you change your nickname on Kickstarter, it changes your name in all post names, both current and past. I distinctly remember one dill weed changing his name, posting something offensive, and changing back, only to have anyone who didn't read inside that window of time, have it have his correct name appended. Caused him much embarrassment.
Don't take my statement about it being derogatory as defending the man. It was meant as a statement of fact rather than an opinion. He's never given me any opinion to think of him as any different to the rest of the people directly associated with PB.
@Morgan - he initially used his real name. Then when it blew up in his face, he switched it to "Casey".
I'm just noting that it's not a derogatory nickname - it's the new name that he selected for himself, and is still using on KS, so that's how he'll be known.
JohnHwangDD wrote: @Morgan - he initially used his real name. Then when it blew up in his face, he switched it to "Casey".
I'm just noting that it's not a derogatory nickname - it's the new name that he selected for himself, and is still using on KS, so that's how he'll be known.
Fair point regarding the former, but a check of the account shows his last post was at the end of the back and forth around 24 hours after his first initial post you linked, when he said goodbye, so it's hard to argue it's still in use, even if there's a way of seeing when he's logged in, like you can Creator accounts.
Again, not defending him. In any way. Ever.
Just like making sure the facts are straight. Cause with PB on the opposition, they've already taken up both sides share of bs, lies, and wankering.
Merijeek wrote: Maybe my memory was off, and I'm digging months back into KS's garbage commenting system, but I thought he was posting under "Rogue Heroes, LLC".
If he did, I did not see him use it as such, and he was definitely posting as Carmen when he was trying to ward the RRT folks away from his upcoming gRift game.
Well I guess that was the end of our bi weekly updates....
Bereavement leave is usually only three days here in the states, so if he was treating this as work
we should get something at the latest today.. But we all know even if we did it would be just more
"we are working on it" with no real proof of movement in any direction.
I just think about what the game could have been... I think if done right it would be a competitor against
drop zone commander.. Would love to played a game with a Cyclone bike army verses zentraedi foot soldiers.
Only way that would happen is fan rules and 3D printed figures.
Will just keep showing up as this continues to burn... Funny how many people that are not even gamers
know this is one of the worse train wrecked kick starters.. But that's just another title for Kevin S.
Genoside07 wrote: Well I guess that was the end of our bi weekly updates....
To be fair, he did say this week, and there's still both plenty of time today, and PB do tend to work a lot of weekends, so until Sunday night, he's still technically got time. And with PB, technicalities are their bread and butter (alongside stupidly optimistic timeframes, and being just plain stupid).
Don't get me wrong, I consider Scott missing that deadline and Scott hitting that deadline with nothing of note to report, equally plausible. An outside chance that there'll be something of note that should have been done weeks ago, and next to zero of actual new information.
Just not ready to call his punctuality into account. Yet.
If Scott is truly the business manager... He should see by now that nothing he says there, based on what he is allowed, or chooses to post will have any positive impact. If nothing, it's just flamed the fans... I mean, fanned the flames I mean in all honesty, what is the point? What was/is the purpose? That's what I find myself wondering... Because if it's to put a positive spin on something, at this juncture it's a total failure...
Theories?:
I mean, if it was to drum up positive interaction for another (Rifts Board Game) crowdsourcing effort: Failed.
If it was to show backers that Palladium wanted to have true transparency: Failed.
If it was to improve the overall PR of the company: Failed.
If it was to show an amount of work being done: Failed. Though I guess, if the amount of work done equates to zero this was a marginal success (lol).
If it was to delay legal action that in all likelihood wouldn't happen anyway: Failed... Based on the idea that it was pointless to begin with.
I wonder if Kickstarter actually did step in and say/ask something with Palladium. Kickstarter did do an investigation on one project back in the day... And I wonder if they used that as a cattle prod, or compelled Palladium to post something? Because, any of the other reasons, based on what's been put into these updates and how they've been handled don't suggest any of the other above mentioned theories...
Maybe Scott is being paid something.... Maybe he is just a fan friend... But if he is being paid, even Kevin should see he is wasting his money... Unless he is compelled by a reason non of us has been able to discern.
Personally, I think Scott came to Kevin, thinking he could truly help or make a difference - perhaps take some of the load off of Kevin's shoulders and get the company back on the straight and level, producing things like it used to churn things out in the 80's/90's.
And I think Kevin believed that too. However, Kevin's ego and paranoia will never allow him to give up the reigns and whatever his attention is on, it's not RRT - hell, I don't think it's on anything more than clearing the dead stock in his warehouse, because it's not on producing RPG products either. But whatever, he can't see - isn't willing to see - how deep in the gak he is. Perhaps, with some luck Scott is beginning to get a sense of how hopeless his position really is - and is reconsidering what he's got himself into. After three months, anyone with any sense ought to know by now to walk away from Kevin and PB.
Or maybe he had a bad beef burrito and he'll be back to his old tricks next week.
It wouldn't shock me if this is the last Scott post.
This may be the beginning of total radio silence on a failed project with no way to finish. It was bound to happen eventually.
It's been a while since I've done one of these, but the latest PBWU is up.
First up, Christmas Grab Bags are back. John Null pointed out in a flippant way that it's still middle of October, but to be fair, given how slow PB tend to be, if you're an international, getting your books before Christmas, it probably does have to start now. They've finally gotten rid of the stupid numbers, and are using rounded figures ($90-$100), but then still go into exacting detail (" Often you get $92-$95 (for most). Sometimes more! Santa Kevin likes to make gamers squeal with delight and often packs in $95-$100 worth of goodies into many Surprise Packages."). Just say "at least $90 worth of product, often more!", and be done with it. Is that extra $2-$5 worth of product REALLY going to tip someone over the edge? Frikkin insane.
Also, you have until December 24th. Because there's nooooo waaaaay this will be extended into January, possibly several weeks into. Because that will never happen. Also, it's pointed out that international backers should be happy they get to essentially pay full MSRP, after shipping. Possibly more!
It should be pointed out that to date, there have been two books released since last year's CGB. Secrets of the Atlanteans ($25) and Dark Designs ($21). Meaning if you're relatively up to date, the CGB's save you a total of one whole dollar on new material.
Then there's a plea to tell other people about it. Because it's not like PB books are an insular niche market, and people who might be interested don't already read the Updates, or know it's coming.
Finally, after a blurb about the Rifter, the Open House, the Drive Thru RPG stuff, and a few other odds and ends, there's another FULL PAGE advert for the Christmas Grab Bags that says exactly the same thing, but has the paragraphs changed around, and possibly modified (I'm not prepared to compare them, but several phrases are definitely repeated). That it's not even a straight cut and paste means that someone spent time rewriting/re-editing it. What a f'n waste of time.
The last time I checked the RPG's, was mid July. Let's see where they're at.
Atlanteans was listed as August. And it delivered. Given it was part of the "First half of 2016", it's hard to call it "on time"
HOH Arsenal, Disavowed, Garden of the Gods and Sovietski were listed as "Summer". Now all dates have been removed, and they're listed only as "In Production". Good move, since all but Sovietski were listed in the same "First half of 2016" as Atlanteans.
Dark Designs was listed as August. They squeaked that one through on August 31st.
Face of Death was listed as Summer/Fall, but got the same date removed/in production dealy.
And Living Nowhere went from an 8 week project (first announced June 9th, due July) to August after Dark Designs is done, and as above, date removed/in production dealy, no release date.
It's good that they FINALLY stopped posting stupidly optimistic release dates, it only took them multiple years (decades?) of failure to finally have it sink in. So umm... yay?
Right at the bottom of the PBWU (and at the bottom of their priorities), and just above the multiline copyright text, is the RRT adverts. Pages 20-22 (of 22) have the standard RRT products at full MSRP, and the four promo figures they haven't sold out of. Tough luck if you want FPA for an official RRT tourney.
And right at the bottom, after the copyright, 16 registered trademarks, 11+ trademarks, and the 2-3 Harmony Gold Trademarks, it's apparently a breach of *something* that I link to the page. "This press release may be reprinted, reposted, linked and shared for the sole purpose of advertising, promotion and sales solicitation.". My sole purpose is mockery. Maybe mockery AND scorn? So that's not a sole purpose. But I don't know what the consequences are for not having the sole purpose be one of those listed. Or what the consequences are for not having a sole purpose.
And right at the bottom, after the copyright, 16 registered trademarks, 11+ trademarks, and the 2-3 Harmony Gold Trademarks, it's apparently a breach of *something* that I link to the page. "This press release may be reprinted, reposted, linked and shared for the sole purpose of advertising, promotion and sales solicitation.". My sole purpose is mockery. Maybe mockery AND scorn? So that's not a sole purpose. But I don't know what the consequences are for not having the sole purpose be one of those listed. Or what the consequences are for not having a sole purpose.
I saw that too.. Looks they needed to talk to their lawyers this week about something apparently.. They now have new shiny regulations, but I am afraid saying something like that will open pandora's box.
Personally I think Kevin is old and very tired.. Ready to call the whole game company thing to an end.. Any way possible.. Most decisions he makes recently is poor at best and most of
us here wonder how they keep the doors open .. Unless he is still living off the RTT money .. the company continues to miss ship dates and produce sub par books. Out of 10 game stores I visit
maybe 2 carry any of their products.. And most of the time its a small section in the back of the store with less than 3 books.. Who's fault is that??
Word of mouth alone has more people moving away from the products than towards it .. They could change that by having good products complete before announcement and fixing rules.
But that is not KS style.
Plus I think if they did go after a gamer that used their "press release" for something else, it would be a Games Workshop vs Chapter house all over again.. Lots of money lost and a minor win with major
internal ramifications.. They don't need bad press right now.. but that would help end the company...
I'm a layman and not a lawyer, but I think fair use laws explicitly are used for this. Fair use allows one to comment or criticize the work in a transformative manner.
I really think if Palladium were to attempt to take someone to court, it'd be an expensive uphill fight for them. Considering how little money it's assumed they have, it could outright end the company for attempting to stifle fair use laws. It's an even greater uphill fight considering that linking goes back to the source material itself in a public forum and proving damages from something like a report or commentary.
Furthermore, aren't these essentially press releases distributed as a way to get news out to the masses?
I can't help but feel it was put in as a scare tactic to stop commentary and the sharing of information that Palladium itself has made public. I assume Kevin is worried people will share stuff that's both being said now, as well as in the past and collate it towards something.
Morgan Vening wrote: And right at the bottom, after the copyright, 16 registered trademarks, 11+ trademarks, and the 2-3 Harmony Gold Trademarks, it's apparently a breach of *something* that I link to the page. "This press release may be reprinted, reposted, linked and shared for the sole purpose of advertising, promotion and sales solicitation.". My sole purpose is mockery. Maybe mockery AND scorn? So that's not a sole purpose. But I don't know what the consequences are for not having the sole purpose be one of those listed. Or what the consequences are for not having a sole purpose.
They can say whatever they like, but that doesn't make it true from a legal standpoint. Legally, you are allowed to copy it for parody or critical purposes, that's a protected expression. Legally, PB can still sue you. If they do so, and you have the resources to see the suit through, you will almost certainly win, and can probably collect fees, but it will cost you money upfront to enforce that legal right.
Is there a new format for kickstarter comments? On other ongoing miniature comments I don't see anything different but on Roach' s new project I see backer info links next to each name plus a report spam option (and I'm not even logged in).
I'm not a backer either and wouldn't touch anything he was involved in. Maybe it's a kindle glitch.
Edit: and checking it again it's now gone. Did I somehow access maybe a creator page option? I've never crowfunded myself so I don't know if their interface is different. That would explain why it's so easy for Palladium to report messages if that's the case. That would explain why backer info was one click available for each comment too.
warboss wrote: I'm not a backer either and wouldn't touch anything he was involved in. Maybe it's a kindle glitch.
Edit: and checking it again it's now gone. Did I somehow access maybe a creator page option? I've never crowfunded myself so I don't know if their interface is different. That would explain why it's so easy for Palladium to report messages if that's the case. That would explain why backer info was one click available for each comment too.
Its a glitch, you are seeing the comments from the creators side i believe, ive been getting the same bug across a few projects the last week, report button works but when you click on "backers info" it takes you to KS home page
Ok, thanks for the confirmation. I didn't know if it was an additional feature added recently. No wonder palladium is able to easily report individual comments whereas backers suffering white knight trolling have to come through a dozen screens searching for it if they don't have it bookmarked.
Well, looks like Scott has joined the dark side and completely missed his own deadline. Don't know what's up with that other than he is now fully indoctrinated into PB's culture ... and luck, it seems.
On the above, I wonder if NMI has backstage access to the KS. That he posts as "himself" seems to indicate he does not.
Turns out Scott was only 98% sure he would post an update last week... If only he would of told backers that (the 98% part anyway); I'm sure the backers, would be much more understanding...
WithintheDungeon wrote: Turns out Scott was only 98% sure he would post an update last week... If only he would of told backers that (the 98% part anyway); I'm sure the backers, would be much more understanding...
AmIright?
Back to my dungeon.
But Pallidium is the same way.. I guess he has accepted their attitude toward dead lines.. They are not a priority, But not giving it priority you start to upset your customer base and end up like
they are currently. Again, Scott has no excuses for no update with the technology the way it is in 2017. He could be on a toilet in Cambodia and still post a update. I never thought for a minute
he would make it in time.. Maybe he quit and someone else used his account to post that...but we don't even know if Scott is real and what he is truly doing there, because I don't see improvement.
So maybe he stood up to Kevin and said no update until he sees true improvement on the project and it blew up in his face.. But you would think if Kevin had a warehouse full of over printed
RRT that he would be trying to do something to help move them... Every day this goes by makes it worse.. Get one popular model done.. start with that... lower cost and less work.. it's better
than nothing and getting nothing..
Scott hasn't done anything to us, outside of coming into the game really late and being the one who gets to deliver us no news. Scott didn't steal our money, make irresponsible choices with it, generate lies over the years (yes, he repeats what he is told).
I think that people sometimes get caught up in their anger or frustration and forget that these are people. I don't know what Scott's personal situation is and I don't care. If he had to deal with something and it prevented him from posting an update, that's fine.
Someone else at PB should have posted in his place. But be it that they are afraid of us, or they are incompetent communicators, or whatever, that's on Scott's boss, not Scott.
We all know that it was going to have zero useful content, so it matters nothing at all.
Pretty much, doesn't matter if Scott takes two months off or a year because he'll will have nothing to report because Unca Kev and the Amazing Wayno have done literally nothing for the past three years but pray this just goes away. Hard to update that Kev is counting his rosaries but for some reason divine providence has not directly intervened on how badly he's screwed this project up.
I would find some humor in Scooter doing a vanishing act and the nebulous 'personal issues' being his last update as he is never heard from again in regards to Palladium and Robotech.
The next Palladium/backer liaison will no doubt be Unca Kev's dog Riftee running updates from a twitter account I guess.
n815e wrote: Scott hasn't done anything to us, outside of coming into the game really late and being the one who gets to deliver us no news. Scott didn't steal our money, make irresponsible choices with it, generate lies over the years (yes, he repeats what he is told).
I think that people sometimes get caught up in their anger or frustration and forget that these are people. I don't know what Scott's personal situation is and I don't care. If he had to deal with something and it prevented him from posting an update, that's fine.
Someone else at PB should have posted in his place. But be it that they are afraid of us, or they are incompetent communicators, or whatever, that's on Scott's boss, not Scott.
n815e wrote: Someone else at PB should have posted in his place. But be it that they are afraid of us, or they are incompetent communicators, or whatever, that's on Scott's boss, not Scott.
The problem is, the "goodwill" is gone.
The "culture" of Palladium Books is readily available to be found which a background check of a perspective company to apply to would be a reasonable thing to do.
It was already identified that a somewhat hostile audience would be dealt with so extra efforts would have to be made to prevent backlash.
I just do not see a degree of professionalism that is supposed to be there.
I have been put into the situation of dealing with very angry customers that have felt "betrayed" and dealt with it.
I guess I made this list since it seems to outline what PB should be doing and why I get so upset when those methods are not met.
Ask:
- Ask what is the #1 thing they want addressed.
- Ask what they wish done as well as the main job.
- What was done badly that they want corrected?
- What was done well that they want us to keep or keep doing?
Do:
-Address directly what the customer needs: information or actions to be taken.
- See if any of the customer "wishes" are easily done and can be offered on top of the needed item.
- Ensure what was done badly does not repeat (customer is sensitized to that behavior).
- Ensure what they like being done continues, it may have been the one thing that kept them from taking drastic action AND make them nervous if it stops.
- Keep the customer informed of the steps being taken and time-line / series of steps to be taken for being resolved.
- Answer directly questions they may have as they arise.
- If the job is "bad" or not readily done: refund the money and refuse the job (with any added bonus for the inconvenience) OR eat the cost and get the job done.
- Bad news: Inform them honestly and tell them what steps you are taking. They get less nervous if they think you will inform them good or bad (no imaginary scenarios going on in their heads).
- Admit if mistakes were made. You were not taking on anything difficult if you had not made mistakes. Brutal honesty in this regard can be bad... admit where it looks like it has merit.
- Take responsibility to answer the questions, even if to commit to getting the answers if you do not know them.
Do Not:
- Inconvenience the customer, it is noticed and will upset them knowingly or not.
- Make them chase you, see the above statement. It makes them nervous that bad things are happening.
- Hold back bad news.,
- Ask for more money if unexpected expenses arise.
- Take full blame for all problems.
Nothing like having a customer go from yelling at you in your face to sending you a card saying thanks.
Respect? Maybe that is the short answer? Just respect your customer and it all works out.
Essentially that list has been sent - multiple times, and it either never made it past the goon squad that protects Kevin from Bad Things(TM), or he's flat out ignored it.
Whether Scott posts or not is of little import. There was a glimmer of hope we would get regular communication with PB, but little to no hope anything would actually happen. However, It is clear he has become absorbed in the PB mentality (he's a pod person now?) and we can't depend on him to break the wall of silence around this project nor does he have any pull to get anything done. He was a posting drone, little more - and I think things have broken once again.
I just find myself wondering how bad of a financial hole they are really in and exactly what does go on at that place from day to day. Because whatever it is that they are filling supposedly 10-12 hour work days with, isn't the business of RPGs. And I sure as hell can't figure out how they are financing keeping their doors open.
n815e wrote: Scott hasn't done anything to us, outside of coming into the game really late and being the one who gets to deliver us no news. Scott didn't steal our money, make irresponsible choices with it, generate lies over the years (yes, he repeats what he is told).
I think that people sometimes get caught up in their anger or frustration and forget that these are people. I don't know what Scott's personal situation is and I don't care. If he had to deal with something and it prevented him from posting an update, that's fine.
Someone else at PB should have posted in his place. But be it that they are afraid of us, or they are incompetent communicators, or whatever, that's on Scott's boss, not Scott.
We all know that it was going to have zero useful content, so it matters nothing at all.
I don't think many people have animosity towards Scott. At most it's a kind of weary cynicism, based on Scott's initial claims that he wanted to turn things around, and that he'd been given the tools to do so, and then spending the better part of three months doing exactly what PB spent the last three years doing, just on a more frequent basis. That he's now missed a promised Update (for valid reason or not), again reflects the PB tradition of promising something and failing to deliver, after having followed other PB traditions like ignoring questions and answering ones that noone asked, often in a patronizing or condescending manner.
For the most part, it seems like any flak he's received is less about him being the one responsible for the state of the clusterfeth when he took over, and more that he took over and has seemingly done nothing with it. He's supposed to be PB's business manager, but isn't involved in several important negotiations. Simply, he came in insinuating he was either in charge, or at least responsible for getting things done, and has failed to show it. Some flak is due.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Stormonu wrote: I just find myself wondering how bad of a financial hole they are really in and exactly what does go on at that place from day to day. Because whatever it is that they are filling supposedly 10-12 hour work days with, isn't the business of RPGs. And I sure as hell can't figure out how they are financing keeping their doors open.
That's a point I've made several times on the PB Forums.
If they work anywhere near as much as they claim, where's the resulting payoff? Assume it's just the equivalent of three of them (Kevin, Wayne, Alex, Chuck, Scott or Jeff before him). Cause I figure there's obviously some non-creative stuff that's needing to be done. Working 5 days a week, 8 hours a day average (they claim MUCH more than this a lot of the time). And that's resulted in the production of <400 pages (224+160) of new product in just under a year. And 320 pages in the year before. With some of that work being completed well before that. It's just simple math. Assuming 8 weeks off a year (some vacation, and varying cons affecting capacity to work). That's 44 weeks. At 40 hours a week. Times three people. Or 5300 man hours a year. To put out 350 pages. Or 15 hours per page. I understand there's more to it than just putting pen to paper or the like, but that still seems glacially slow. Even with PB's formatting putting them about 1200 words per page at peak (based on pg 13 of Free Quebec, a page with no headers, page breaks or art), at half the average typing speed of 40wpm, that's still only an hour's work. Assuming another hour is spent on outlining and developing, and another hour is spent on editing and formatting, where's the other 12 hours go? And that's a CONSERVATIVE estimate based on Palladium's claims.
It's the same when you do any kind of sum for Robotech (my more usual argument). What's a good number for "working on it"? Two hours each a week from Kevin and Wayne? That'd be the bare minimum most people would consider as being even close to acceptable for using that statement, right? Well, that'd be 176 hours a year, or almost 500 hours since Wave 1 delivered. With very little new content in that time to show for it. Show me the money? No, show me the timecards.
So either they're doing nothing and lying, doing something and hiding it, or faffing about and doing something that results in nothing. I'm betting their in-house garbage-bin basketball league is awesome.
EDIT: As to the financials, yeah, I have no idea. That Kevin was overexcited about selling 120 copies of the only book they'd released this year, over almost three full days, at one of the biggest conventions on the calendar, which wouldn't have even covered the cost of the booth space, let alone ancilliary costs like transport, wages, food or accomodation, indicates new releases aren't keeping them afloat. Back catalog might make up for some of that, but given the reported lack of retailers stocking PB's RPG's, it's hard to say that'd be a significant revenue stream. Because again, math. Assuming after production costs (printer and artists, if not also authors and/or distributor prices and/or CGB discounting), that PB make $10 average on each book, to have 5 permanent staff at minimum wage (almost $9/h) and a standard business overhead of that again (rent, utilities, insurance, tax, adverts, etc), would mean nine books an hour. That doesn't seem like much, but that's ~70 books a day. Which is almost twice the rate that caused Kevin to be overexcited about 120 Secrets of the Atlanteans in three days thing. It does make the allegations they tapped into RRT funds to keep the doors open seem at the least, a credible theory.
All Kevin works on his Palladium weekly update. Some of those babies have 3-4 pages of new text as Kevin rambles on about how great he is, how the fans love him/Rifts and how much work he's doing. It takes him all week to polish it to perfection, then copy/paste in all the Rifts promotional gak.
Don't forget Kevin's ego insist that he rewrites EVERYTHING to insure his name is top billing on the byline. So this should slow productivity by at least half.
And from what has been revealed by Coffin and others, the remaining time is filled with Kevin parking his bum on the corner of someone's desk revealing his most personal issues and problems in the most uncomfortable detail. Add whatever is the latest hot topic TV show/movie/pop culture that could be worked into the next publication and that probably accounts for the rest of their time.
Autarch wrote: Don't forget Kevin's ego insist that he rewrites EVERYTHING to insure his name is top billing on the byline. So this should slow productivity by at least half.
And from what has been revealed by Coffin and others, the remaining time is filled with Kevin parking his bum on the corner of someone's desk revealing his most personal issues and problems in the most uncomfortable detail. Add whatever is the latest hot topic TV show/movie/pop culture that could be worked into the next publication and that probably accounts for the rest of their time.
I was taking that into account. I noted (but didn't factor in) author expenses, but didn't do so for actual writing. I assumed someone wrote or rewrote every word, because of Kevin's tendency to do (or at least claim to do), that very thing. That's why even with me being conservative with my estimates, that only accounts for 20% of the time they have available. That percentage could well be half that, if not more.
And I'm aware of the Coffin and others anecdotal testimonials, that was part of what made me do the math in the first place. Coupled with several mentions of Kevin and crew working much longer than a 40hr work week.
It just boggles my mind that even with the fanatics they've got, they've been able to keep the doors open for three decades (especially this last one).
That's why when Scott said he had all the "information, introductions, and tools I need to be successful in my new position", Scott's claim literally the sentence before that PB has "the potential to become a giant in the gaming world is definitely present" (Update 199) made the claim that he wasn't a yes-man reminiscent of Kevin's claim that his staff doesn't blow smoke, but they just came in and said the latest writing was "redefining the genre" or some such gak.
One thing to keep in mind is that I would be very surprised if Scott was a full time employee. All of them may have "day" jobs and their work with PB is just part time.
That makes the financials of the company make a lot more sense to me as well as the apparent inability to produce anything in a reasonable amount of time.
Morgan Vening wrote: I don't think many people have animosity towards Scott. At most it's a kind of weary cynicism, based on Scott's initial claims that he wanted to turn things around, and that he'd been given the tools to do so, and then spending the better part of three months doing exactly what PB spent the last three years doing, just on a more frequent basis. That he's now missed a promised Update (for valid reason or not), again reflects the PB tradition of promising something and failing to deliver, after having followed other PB traditions like ignoring questions and answering ones that noone asked, often in a patronizing or condescending manner.
For the most part, it seems like any flak he's received is less about him being the one responsible for the state of the clusterfeth when he took over, and more that he took over and has seemingly done nothing with it. He's supposed to be PB's business manager, but isn't involved in several important negotiations. Simply, he came in insinuating he was either in charge, or at least responsible for getting things done, and has failed to show it. Some flak is due..
When a new spokesman says:
- He will answer questions "I will answer as many of them as I can as quickly as I can."
- "I am Palladium’s business manager, not Kevin’s yes-man "
-"I have been working hard to get an accurate assessment of where Palladium Books® stands, not only overall, but specifically with regard to Robotech® RPG Tactics™"
- "I’m here to make a difference and to help grow the company. "
- "From here on out, I personally will be posting updates every two weeks - even if nothing has changed I will check in to let you know. "
It would take literally less than an hour to find out the status of Wave 2 including time extracting information people would be hesitant to give (camp at their desk).
The "ire" we have for Scott is he offered hope.
A stupid hope, but one all the same.
His initial statements seemed to indicate he was here to see things happen and "grow the business".
Creating text to stave off litigation I guess is one of those tasks.
His initial statements quickly are found to have no teeth to them.
He is now "stuck:" and going through the motions and is rightly in need of ridicule.
I have worked for narcissistic bosses (I am sorry to say yes, plural... ).
The best plan is update your resume and get out of there before your reputation takes a permanent hit.
The longer he drags on this farce the more deserving he is of customer slander (it is not slander if it is true right?).
I do not feel sorry for him, the situation he found himself in is as much his doing as his co-workers and boss.
This is why each post from Scott is just that much more burdensome: it becomes utterly obvious he is knowingly misleading owed customers (completely ignoring key questions is a telling sign).
The people posting in the comments sections are increasingly calling him on his lack of integrity.
He's supposed to be PB's business manager, but isn't involved in several important negotiations. Simply, he came in insinuating he was either in charge, or at least responsible for getting things done, and has failed to show it. Some flak is due.
Perhaps. More likely, in my mind, Scott was hired with the job description of having certain responsibilities and authority. He started out strongly in his posts and PB's communications overall have improved. Working remotely, having to rely on Kevin and Wayne, it was a pretty fast slide as the quality of Scott's updates dropped drastically, his writing started resembling Kevin's in tone and -- last update -- he was presented with information that was a flat out lie to give to us. Kevin refers to him as "my business manger" rather than by name, which is somewhat diminishing. I think Scott had an idea of what his job was to be, started working on that, then hit the wall of poor work ethic and incompetence that is PB. I also think that Kevin probably hired Scott to clean up PB's image/reputation and had all sorts of Kevin-style pipedreams of what that would mean, but then Scott started wanting to know things and telling them to do work and his improvements didn't result in magical overnight improvements in reputation and lots of gRifts money pouring in, so Kevin just went back to being Kevin.
If I were Scott, I'd seriously be looking for another job.
I think you really hit the nail on the head. I think Scott came in to help straighten up PB, and Kevin was behind the idea - until the rubber had to hit the payment.
I've read a self-biography of Kevin before, and from it I quickly came to the conclusion the man could not survive working for anyone other than himself, and that at that, would accept nothing short of utter praise for his efforts in anything he did - any sort of criticism of his half-baked ideas would be crushing to him, and the only way he could get past it would be to trivialize/ignore it.
Stormonu wrote: <snip> I quickly came to the conclusion the man could not survive working for anyone other than himself, and that at that, would accept nothing short of utter praise for his efforts in anything he did - any sort of criticism of his half-baked ideas would be crushing to him, and the only way he could get past it would be to trivialize/ignore it.
Actually typical behavior of narcissists: they suck up to their direct superiors with no sense of shame, bad mouth them when they think they are not listening, make light of their peer's accomplishments or criticize them and treat as dirt anyone beneath them.
That is why Kevin likes to call customers "fan-friends" it allows him to trivialize his customers and ignore them.
For added fun, they are NEVER wrong unless expressed as a grand gesture (I am TOO trusting!!!).
Criticism is not crushing so much, it is just not tolerated, it is considered a direct attack on their self image which will be ruthlessly defended.
It is ignored (you are considered his lesser) or aggressively shouted down (you are a threat and considered a lesser) or shift blame to someone else (you are considered an equal or threat or boss) or erased (the information is considered "threatening" and better to not draw attention) or will get revenge if you somehow managed to make something stick (got to teach a lesson to everyone to think twice before taking a run at him... litigation is a favorite tool.).
What is gold for them is to get "reasonable" people to sink to their level, it affirms that what they do is fine and good: "everyone else does it too!".
Whole different type of human being.
Some people have challenges where they simply lack empathy or have some mental challenges, narcissistic glory hounds have actually made a choice that their needs are greater than everyone else, so that is why Kevin is the son of a gun that he is and gets zero sympathy and trust from me.
Just looking at how his employees act around him speak volumes never mind some of the rants that were posted by prior employees.
The reality of the matter is that Scotts' professional reputation is taking a hit just by being associated with Palladium Books (regardless of a part time or full time capacity).
I can only presume from a certain viewpoint of what has occurred, and this is by no means total defense of either Scott or Kevin. Scott likely came into the situation not aware of the background details of the company, it's culture (or lack thereof), dysfunction and the stagnation with this kickstarter and along with the Rifts Board Game failed kickstarter. Having been hired by the chief window licker himself, Kevin likely pulled a hat trick and told Scott one thing only to pull the rug from under Scott when it came time to make hard decisions. Scotts' first warning flags were when we were told he wasn't allowed/invited/instructed to come to GenCon and to sit in on manufacturers' meetings (presuming those meetings in fact took place). If you were hired to be the business manager, and you were told to not come to these events or meetings it stands to reason that you are not being hired to perform the role you applied for. Scott should have looked at Kevin and bluntly asked him why was he hired to be the business manager if Kevin will not allow him to manage the business?
Yes Scott came out of the starting gate saying he is stronger than a locomotive, faster than a speeding bullet, and able to leap tall buildings in a single bound, but he's not Super-Business Manager (That messes with the narrative that Kevin is Palladium Books). Scott may have been hired to be the business manager of Palladium Books, but the actual day-to-day business decisions are, from and by Kevin 'I AM PALLADIUM BOOKS' Siebieda. Scott is limited by the confines of a role that apparently is not defined in the manner Scott thought/expected it to be (After all Kevin knows what he is doing and anyone else isn't capable of doing the job so deftly and expertly as he). The limitation being that anything Scott says or does has to go through Kevin first (because if its not what Kevin would do, why would it be done?). It's well documented that Kevin is a control-freak and it shows in how Scott has responded to us by the 9 updates he has made to date (because Kevin can do no wrong, can he?).
While Kevin may have been behind Scott to straighten up the business (until it runs contrary to Kevins' vision which has never really been explained in a coherent manner), Scott may have come to realize that it has become a moot point. Damage had already been done and is well beyond the point of no return for repair, Scott can't be expected to repair the Titanic when its already sunk (unless of course you are Kevin Siembieda).
Seawolf wrote: The reality of the matter is that Scotts' professional reputation is taking a hit just by being associated with Palladium Books (regardless of a part time or full time capacity).
Spoiler:
I can only presume from a certain viewpoint of what has occurred, and this is by no means total defense of either Scott or Kevin. Scott likely came into the situation not aware of the background details of the company, it's culture (or lack thereof), dysfunction and the stagnation with this kickstarter and along with the Rifts Board Game failed kickstarter. Having been hired by the chief window licker himself, Kevin likely pulled a hat trick and told Scott one thing only to pull the rug from under Scott when it came time to make hard decisions. Scotts' first warning flags were when we were told he wasn't allowed/invited/instructed to come to GenCon and to sit in on manufacturers' meetings (presuming those meetings in fact took place). If you were hired to be the business manager, and you were told to not come to these events or meetings it stands to reason that you are not being hired to perform the role you applied for. Scott should have looked at Kevin and bluntly asked him why was he hired to be the business manager if Kevin will not allow him to manage the business?
Yes Scott came out of the starting gate saying he is stronger than a locomotive, faster than a speeding bullet, and able to leap tall buildings in a single bound, but he's not Super-Business Manager (That messes with the narrative that Kevin is Palladium Books). Scott may have been hired to be the business manager of Palladium Books, but the actual day-to-day business decisions are, from and by Kevin 'I AM PALLADIUM BOOKS' Siebieda. Scott is limited by the confines of a role that apparently is not defined in the manner Scott thought/expected it to be (After all Kevin knows what he is doing and anyone else isn't capable of doing the job so deftly and expertly as he). The limitation being that anything Scott says or does has to go through Kevin first (because if its not what Kevin would do, why would it be done?). It's well documented that Kevin is a control-freak and it shows in how Scott has responded to us by the 9 updates he has made to date (because Kevin can do no wrong, can he?).
While Kevin may have been behind Scott to straighten up the business (until it runs contrary to Kevins' vision which has never really been explained in a coherent manner), Scott may have come to realize that it has become a moot point. Damage had already been done and is well beyond the point of no return for repair, Scott can't be expected to repair the Titanic when its already sunk (unless of course you are Kevin Siembieda).
So in summary: a hired front man, sock puppet or minion.
I would expect Scott to read the writing on the wall and leave.
It would not take 4 months to get a handle on that "sinking feeling" unless you are fine with the cool-aid being offered.
Scott has had 9 "updates" to get a handle on how his "work" is vetted by Kevin.
It would only take one.
The difference is, I am not believing Scott is an unwilling/uninformed participant, definitely not now.
I do not believe Scott is posting in good faith any more than Palladium Books is moving forward with Wave2.
What is that phrase? "The cake is a lie."
JohnHwangDD wrote: Kevin should hire a more deserving frontman to catch the rotten fruit & vegetables... I again nominate Casey.
If "Casey" was truthfully unwell enough to try to end it all... I may give him a free pass.
That situation was a fine example where his loved ones should have pointed out to Kevin: "Not your shield." for using an unfortunate event to his advantage.
The problem with all the lies is a part of me is still unwilling to believe it happened but I have to pretend otherwise, in order to not be insensitive or a jerk.
Talizvar wrote: So in summary: a hired front man, sock puppet or minion.
I would expect Scott to read the writing on the wall and leave.
It would not take 4 months to get a handle on that "sinking feeling" unless you are fine with the cool-aid being offered.
Scott has had 9 "updates" to get a handle on how his "work" is vetted by Kevin.
It would only take one.
The difference is, I am not believing Scott is an unwilling/uninformed participant, definitely not now.
I do not believe Scott is posting in good faith any more than Palladium Books is moving forward with Wave2.
What is that phrase? "The cake is a lie."
Not sure on the hired front man, the sock puppet or the minion. I think that describes Wayne, NMI and Carmen more accurately... but that's my observation based on the conduct I have seen to date.
Scott is in a damnable position any way we shake a stick at it. So it wouldn't matter if he did everything right as we'd still hold him accountable for it. Is that fair? Do you yell at the McDonald's employee at the register because they didn't get enough Szechuan dipping sauce in? Or do you take your anger out on the Manager who is paid to deal with it. Scott is in a similar situation. He was hired to perform a function that is ill-defined by a narcisstic tyrannical manager who can't be bothered, but can be bothered when it effects his narcissitic view of himself in a community that has shrugged and moved on to better games and products.
JohnHwangDD wrote: Kevin should hire a more deserving frontman to catch the rotten fruit & vegetables... I again nominate Casey.
If "Casey" was truthfully unwell enough to try to end it all... I may give him a free pass.
That situation was a fine example where his loved ones should have pointed out to Kevin: "Not your shield." for using an unfortunate event to his advantage.
The problem with all the lies is a part of me is still unwilling to believe it happened but I have to pretend otherwise, in order to not be insensitive or a jerk.
I have always assumed that Kevin cravenly and cynically lied about Casey's "suicide attempt" things.
Without independent third party proof or evidence that Casey really attempted suicide, I will continue to assume it was all a ploy concocted by Kevin to deflect criticism.
Seawolf wrote: Scott is in a damnable position any way we shake a stick at it. So it wouldn't matter if he did everything right as we'd still hold him accountable for it. Is that fair? Do you yell at the McDonald's employee at the register because they didn't get enough Szechuan dipping sauce in? Or do you take your anger out on the Manager who is paid to deal with it. Scott is in a similar situation. He was hired to perform a function that is ill-defined by a narcisstic tyrannical manager who can't be bothered, but can be bothered when it effects his narcissitic view of himself in a community that has shrugged and moved on to better games and products.
Disagree here.
Scott's not some peripheral employee. In your example he'd be warehouse or phone staff. Scott took a position where he's the frontman for the project. Where he took responsibility for updating backers, and therefore must take some of the blame for not doing so.
That it's a thankless job seemingly doomed to failure is irrelevant. A small amount of research should have shown him how difficult his job was, and he was at it for about a month before it was made public (to make sure he "fit"), and he chose to go ahead anyway. Then he spent another three months doing bugger all from a public perspective.
Yes, Kevin still gets the bulk of the blame, but Scott's job is to protect him from that, and as long as he's still willing to take the paycheck, knowing what the situation is, and enabling it, he deserves to share in the backlash.
I thought Scott was a fan friend and/or Megaversal ambassador so not sure he's totally innocent or oblivious of Kevin's shenanigans (though I'd buy kool-aid drinking self delusional).
Anyone find out what his issue was? Did a brief recon of social media (shudder) and got the impression his wife's sister died. Don't quote me on that.
Autarch wrote: I thought Scott was a fan friend and/or Megaversal ambassador so not sure he's totally innocent or oblivious of Kevin's shenanigans (though I'd buy kool-aid drinking self delusional).
Anyone find out what his issue was? Did a brief recon of social media (shudder) and got the impression his wife's sister died. Don't quote me on that.
Is there any independent truth to that? Or is it yet another lie by Kevin?
ETA - yes, I honestly believe that Kevin is craven and venal enough to lie about these sorts of things to hold onto the money a little bit longer.
I agree with Scott signed on as a project manager / Social Media coordinator. He has also been on the job for about six months now,
So no matter how bad companies get quotes back to them, which shouldn't take more than a week in real life. If a project six months
in hasn't started a ordering process at this point it never will. I think Scott realizes he can not say any more and being palladium's
"business manager" is not working since Kevin will never make the changes recommended.
The other sad thing is their face book page is still getting updates from the account that was clearly coming from Scott as of a few weeks ago.
Just proof that they cannot prove where the money went and don't want to say there is no money.. so just say nothing instead of reapeating
the same thing over and over like a Kevin's Parrot.
We are back to dead silence on RTT Kickstarter, with any future update being "we are working on it" so you can't do anything about it because Palladium
lawyers say that's our only way out.
I hope it's not the cause that Autarch mentioned, but the fact that it could be something serious is part of why I'm not remotely worried about the delayed update, nor onboard with the people belittling him in the comments.
He's not a robot, he's a person. He has a job, not a blood oath/suicide pact. If something serious happened to a family member or other loved one, I'd expect no less from his priorities.
At the end of the day, the fault lands at PB's (in general) and Kevin's (in particular) feet. If something serious has happened in Scott's life, they've had a week now to write something up in his stead. They managed it for years (infrequently) and are presumably the source from which much of his information arrives, so it's not like they'd be filling in for an unfamiliar role.
Maybe he got a papercut, maybe he is busy saving the world from alien invasion. If his life/availability make him unable to post a couple pages of pablum for the masses and take heat as a faceless name on the screen in Wayne or Kevin's place, so be it. That blame is rightfully theirs in the first place.
As Morgan pointed out, we've had around half a dozen names sending us info (or failing to do so) for over 4.5 years now regarding this campaign. If his era was Spicer'ian and has concluded (or is going to), that doesn't really change anything at all from my perspective. He signed up for a crappy job and frankly was better at it than several of the past people who held it. Doom and gloom is our bread and butter here, most don't believe we're getting anything more anyway, so I don't see why it really matters who is willing to walk into no man's land on any particular month.
At least with him we were getting updates regularly again (until whatever has happened recently). It was something more than the months of silence we had leading up to his time in the role.
It's frankly amazing where our imaginations go in the comments just after a few days of missing posts.
I kinda thought Scott would make an attempt this week - at least touch back, but the back of my mind is telling me I should have know better.
Alas, it looks like we are back to radio silence and full-on speculation. There was a short time our ears were perked, seems like we can go back to hating on Kevin, his company and anyone within a 10 mile radius of His magnificence full bore once again.
Dammit, I wish they'd just come clean on the whole state of this mess, but that's obviously too noble for Kevin's ego.
I was actually thinking the same thing this morning Soul Samurai. This seems a bit odd given Scott's adherence to the schedule he promised when he started and while sometimes life happens not being able to even put out a "Sorry life is crazy, things should return to normal at X date." seems odd.
I have to agree it does seem weird that he worked so hard to get a schedule started for updates to all of a sudden abandon it.
And when your boss refuses to call you by name in a product update is not a good sign either...
Personally I think we all know the ego Kevin has and being told what to do and in what order is painful to him..
What leverage does Scott have against him if Kevin doesn't do what is recommended??
After months of a list of things that need to get done so projects can move forward are not done, what does Scott do?
As for the imagination comment.. what else do we have to go on??... There is no real facts that anything is truly getting worked on since wave one..
There is nothing out there at all except Palladium's word that "they are working on it".. but when it comes time for the action they said was
complete, there is nothing to show and the action is repeated with a new date. Wash, rinse, repeat....
So we are only left to guess what is really going on as other Kickstarters that started years later are getting finished.
Internet 'personal matters' always seem to trump the real world. When my mother passed I was absolutely devastated, crushed, world upside down and I got three days of bereavement to get my self together and couldn't do it so I tapped into my personal vacation to get the week off. Sometimes these nebulous 'personal reasons' give a ticket to languishing around for months and if you suggest maybe they should get back on the horse you're an insensitive kneebiting jerk for not being sensitive to their personal reasons.
Again, you could say it's 'just toys' so chill out but really it's a $1.44M project that Scott's supposed to be managing here and the actual product is irrelevant. Not surprised Scott has gone deep and silent as he really has no vested interest in managing this project at all.
).
