I figure there is little point in reading much into the delay.
Heck, going out for a walk on a nice day would take priority from their viewpoint.
I think I have zero appreciation for the regular interval of updates because we are not the target audience.
Gee-wiz, we have been working so diligently keeping our backers informed AG/FTC! (BTW, the glossary notes for these are kinda funny: The adrenal flying terror causer!)
No actual comments on things actually being done, money spent, or a manufacture/cargo/pack/ship date.
An update every 2 weeks or every 3 months makes no difference to us.
The thing with Scott here is that he took up a position to defend the indefensible. If we give him the benefit of the doubt here and assume he knew nothing of the real situation going in, but after that he's either party to outright lies (Stuff is happening!) or incompetence (We can't get our act together!), and possibly fraud (We used the money for something else!). The only other option is that Kevin is treating him exactly like the rest of us (Lies and BS, smoke and mirrors) and he's taken a job to feed us the same obvious lies.
If he could deliver actual proof of progress it might be different, but it's been how long now since he took the job, and basically nothing but old renders?
Now that Christmas Surprise Package season has officially begun, not much else is happening there anyway. From October to January, Kevin will actually do some work: selling overstock, old junk, damaged items, and -- if you ask -- RRT.
He will sign anything he can get his hands on, including art prints where he wasn't the artist.
Everything else will be ignored, because this is the only time of the year that PB actually makes any money.
Credit where credit is due, the Force Orgs are up.
That they're woefully unspectacular, do not appear to be any different to the existing materials mechanically, are poorly laid out, and potentially an IP breach are completely different matters.
But after three months, they're done. So yay.
It might be said that I'm overly negative, but geez, I was expecting a little more effort than that. At least some NEW information or deployment options, given the wait.
EDIT: Well, it at least explains the Wave 2 delay. If that's the best after three months of "working on it", then the Wave 2 delays are self explanatory.
Because I seem to recall that group (in general) using a lot of stuff randomly found on Deviant Art and Google Image searches, which would probably make it a no-go for public release.
Credit where credit is due, the Force Orgs are up.
That they're woefully unspectacular, do not appear to be any different to the existing materials mechanically, are poorly laid out, and potentially an IP breach are completely different matters.
But after three months, they're done. So yay.
It might be said that I'm overly negative, but geez, I was expecting a little more effort than that. At least some NEW information or deployment options, given the wait.
EDIT: Well, it at least explains the Wave 2 delay. If that's the best after three months of "working on it", then the Wave 2 delays are self explanatory.
Well he did write that the designs aren't final. Perhaps it would benefit you all to make an attempt to work with Scott and provide feedback on the Orgs.
Because I seem to recall that group (in general) using a lot of stuff randomly found on Deviant Art and Google Image searches, which would probably make it a no-go for public release.
Could be. I assumed that the assets had been clipped from the RRT rulebook, promo crap, box art, and such.
Just a thought about ole uncle Kev - it's very possible Scott signed the infamous PB NDA and no one outside of the inner (and in this sassy reporters opinion, downright pathetic) circle will ever know.
Now let's start grabbing those grab bags - and we may discover where Scott went - I just requested him in my bag.
Credit where credit is due, the Force Orgs are up.
That they're woefully unspectacular, do not appear to be any different to the existing materials mechanically, are poorly laid out, and potentially an IP breach are completely different matters.
But after three months, they're done. So yay.
It might be said that I'm overly negative, but geez, I was expecting a little more effort than that. At least some NEW information or deployment options, given the wait.
EDIT: Well, it at least explains the Wave 2 delay. If that's the best after three months of "working on it", then the Wave 2 delays are self explanatory.
Easy to explain......
1. The symbols are the same as the ones on the Force Orgs that I did. I could not remember where I got them. I was asked though. Told Scott they needed to be either redone or given credit for since they were on a free site.
2. The Orgs shown are a bastardization of the ones I did and the ones Tom did. I naturally prefer mine.
3. This is something they could and should have shared many moons ago.
4. Throwing out our Powerpoint files and not something redone professionally was just asking for problems.
I'm furious (again...). They might as well have us vote on which quote we all to accept - without revealing the details, so Kevin can all throw us under the bus when the manufacturer "bilks" them out of the remainder of the funds and leaves the project without funds to actually finish the sprues.
God, how does this terrible company continue to survive? It's like the freakin' Rasputin of game companies.
Credit where credit is due, the Force Orgs are up.
That they're woefully unspectacular, do not appear to be any different to the existing materials mechanically, are poorly laid out, and potentially an IP breach are completely different matters.
But after three months, they're done. So yay.
It might be said that I'm overly negative, but geez, I was expecting a little more effort than that. At least some NEW information or deployment options, given the wait.
EDIT: Well, it at least explains the Wave 2 delay. If that's the best after three months of "working on it", then the Wave 2 delays are self explanatory.
Well he did write that the designs aren't final. Perhaps it would benefit you all to make an attempt to work with Scott and provide feedback on the Orgs.
Well, I couldn't give a crap about the aesthetics. They've had 3.5+ months to work on this, and they obviously didn't put any effort into the visuals. So let's check the mechanicals.
I've just done a comparison of this new revision that took months to check for gameplay/balance issues, with the 3+ year old cards now available through the DriveThru page. It's possible I may have missed some things, but I did check carefully. It took about an hour to cross check (though admittedly, I only checked from, not to, so if there's options in the cards not represented on the ForceOrg, I've missed it), so the writing of this shouldn't have taken more than 3-4h, from scratch, let alone the condition it was in which Scott first became aware of it.
UEDF Destroid Core Command Destroid is an Upgrade rather than a Special.
UEDF Valkyrie Core Jotun Squadron, +10pts
YF-4 Squadron +5pts
Jotun Support Squad +5pts
VF-1R is an Upgrade instead of a Support Card
Long Range Missiles, Ammo 8 to 6, equivalent ~25% price drops (already errated, I believe?)
YF-4 Medium Missiles, appears to be a mistaken cut and paste of Valk Gravity Bombs.
Zentradi Elite Nousjadeul-Ger Squad Flechette Cannon Upgrade -3pts (Discount only applies to Elite squad, Regult Squad still pay 23pts)
Nousgarma-Ger Special Upgrades prorated (the original 1 unit Special card paid as much for the upgrades as the 3 unit Core card)
Zentradi Regult Allow Regult/HInf/LInf Squads to take Veteran, but don't provide cost (10/5/5 on 2014 versions).
Infantry Officer Upgrade for 10pts, or 5pts as a Special.
Malcontent Aerial VF-1R is now an Upgrade instead of a Support Card
Malcontent Ground Main Battle Squadron allowed GU-11 Upgrade, but Upgrade now only allowed for Spartans (assume copypaste error)
Zentradi Assault Squadron GU-11 Upgrade error as above
Zentradi Assault Squadron Flechette Cannon Upgrade +5pts
Zentradi Infantry Officer Special appears pointless (as you can get it at the same price as a Core or Support Upgrade)
So, got to say I'm not impressed. Other than Jotuns and YF-4's costing slightly more, and a couple of points fixes (but many more added errors), the only thing that really counts is command options (and VF-R's) now being upgrades instead of Special (or Support) cards. It's a decent change, but that's not a significant enough shakeup to warrant the delay, as for the most part, this is just a transcription of the already existing cards, and hence the "gameplay/balance" argument used several times as an excuse, falls flat.
So, that leaves ease of use, and that's where it all falls apart for me. I don't hate the use of the icons (though I'd prefer a short text description instead, but the costs should be next to them. Kind of defeats the purpose of having to cross-reference stuff to figure out costs (as the costs of each upgrade is dependent on the number of applicable units in the formation. ie, Malcontent Improvised Bombs can cost 12, 10, 8, 5 or 2pts, depending on the card it's being purchased for. You shouldn't have to flip between pages to find the cost of a single formation. That's the whole purpose of a Force Org.
Honestly, with the "gameplay/balance" excuses, I expected a significant shakeup, or alternate army compositions, or something. Apparently, "more fool me", because in hindsight, I shouldn't have expected much more than the bare minimum. And the bare minimum, 3+ months later than it should have been, is what we got. I mentioned elsewhere, if they'd done Force Orgs for different variants (like a Vermillion Squadron Force Org, or a Miriya force that excluded access to MPA's at all in exchange for something), that shook up the game, then there might be something to it.
But this? I could have done it myself, in a couple hours, using the official cards, and not have had it sit in limbo for 3 months.
Zentradi Regult Allow Regult/HInf/LInf Squads to take Veteran, but don't provide cost (10/5/5 on 2014 versions).
Unless I'm missing something, the veteran upgrades are in the powerpoint slide below... and they seem to have been jacked up significantly for some reason.
Isn't the common thinking that Zent have a significant disadvantage among those who play? That cohort doesn't include me sadly as only one person every took up an offer to play/learn the game with my fully painted forces and it was a tiny single card demo game at that.
Stormonu wrote: I'm furious (again...). They might as well have us vote on which quote we all to accept - without revealing the details, so Kevin can all throw us under the bus when the manufacturer "bilks" them out of the remainder of the funds and leaves the project without funds to actually finish the sprues.
God, how does this terrible company continue to survive? It's like the freakin' Rasputin of game companies.
PaPa Palladium
Lover of Kickstarter funds
There was an ego that was really large?
dreamakuma wrote: Did anyone notice the icons from the force org Charts are Creative Commons and Palladium gave no credit?
Spoiler:
It would appear that they are updating the files to correct that oversight via he update I just read in my e-mail. At least Scott has the presence of mind to do so... can't say the same for Kevin.
Morgan Vening wrote: Latest Update is up.
[spoiler]
Credit where credit is due, the Force Orgs are up.
That they're woefully unspectacular, do not appear to be any different to the existing materials mechanically, are poorly laid out, and potentially an IP breach are completely different matters.
But after three months, they're done. So yay.
It might be said that I'm overly negative, but geez, I was expecting a little more effort than that. At least some NEW information or deployment options, given the wait.
EDIT: Well, it at least explains the Wave 2 delay. If that's the best after three months of "working on it", then the Wave 2 delays are self explanatory.
Well he did write that the designs aren't final. Perhaps it would benefit you all to make an attempt to work with Scott and provide feedback on the Orgs.
Well, I couldn't give a crap about the aesthetics. They've had 3.5+ months to work on this, and they obviously didn't put any effort into the visuals. So let's check the mechanicals.
I've just done a comparison of this new revision that took months to check for gameplay/balance issues, with the 3+ year old cards now available through the DriveThru page. It's possible I may have missed some things, but I did check carefully. It took about an hour to cross check (though admittedly, I only checked from, not to, so if there's options in the cards not represented on the ForceOrg, I've missed it), so the writing of this shouldn't have taken more than 3-4h, from scratch, let alone the condition it was in which Scott first became aware of it.
UEDF Destroid Core Command Destroid is an Upgrade rather than a Special.
UEDF Valkyrie Core Jotun Squadron, +10pts
YF-4 Squadron +5pts
Jotun Support Squad +5pts
VF-1R is an Upgrade instead of a Support Card
Long Range Missiles, Ammo 8 to 6, equivalent ~25% price drops (already errated, I believe?)
YF-4 Medium Missiles, appears to be a mistaken cut and paste of Valk Gravity Bombs.
Zentradi Elite Nousjadeul-Ger Squad Flechette Cannon Upgrade -3pts (Discount only applies to Elite squad, Regult Squad still pay 23pts)
Nousgarma-Ger Special Upgrades prorated (the original 1 unit Special card paid as much for the upgrades as the 3 unit Core card)
Zentradi Regult Allow Regult/HInf/LInf Squads to take Veteran, but don't provide cost (10/5/5 on 2014 versions).
Infantry Officer Upgrade for 10pts, or 5pts as a Special.
Malcontent Aerial VF-1R is now an Upgrade instead of a Support Card
Malcontent Ground Main Battle Squadron allowed GU-11 Upgrade, but Upgrade now only allowed for Spartans (assume copypaste error)
Zentradi Assault Squadron GU-11 Upgrade error as above
Zentradi Assault Squadron Flechette Cannon Upgrade +5pts
Zentradi Infantry Officer Special appears pointless (as you can get it at the same price as a Core or Support Upgrade)
So, got to say I'm not impressed. Other than Jotuns and YF-4's costing slightly more, and a couple of points fixes (but many more added errors), the only thing that really counts is command options (and VF-R's) now being upgrades instead of Special (or Support) cards. It's a decent change, but that's not a significant enough shakeup to warrant the delay, as for the most part, this is just a transcription of the already existing cards, and hence the "gameplay/balance" argument used several times as an excuse, falls flat.
So, that leaves ease of use, and that's where it all falls apart for me. I don't hate the use of the icons (though I'd prefer a short text description instead, but the costs should be next to them. Kind of defeats the purpose of having to cross-reference stuff to figure out costs (as the costs of each upgrade is dependent on the number of applicable units in the formation. ie, Malcontent Improvised Bombs can cost 12, 10, 8, 5 or 2pts, depending on the card it's being purchased for. You shouldn't have to flip between pages to find the cost of a single formation. That's the whole purpose of a Force Org.
Honestly, with the "gameplay/balance" excuses, I expected a significant shakeup, or alternate army compositions, or something. Apparently, "more fool me", because in hindsight, I shouldn't have expected much more than the bare minimum. And the bare minimum, 3+ months later than it should have been, is what we got. I mentioned elsewhere, if they'd done Force Orgs for different variants (like a Vermillion Squadron Force Org, or a Miriya force that excluded access to MPA's at all in exchange for something), that shook up the game, then there might be something to it.
But this? I could have done it myself, in a couple hours, using the official cards, and not have had it sit in limbo for 3 months.
On this I agree fully. These force org charts are underwhelming in every sense of the word. I am not sure any of it really makes a tinker's cuss. I am a little confused what the intent was. Its one thing to do a force org chart for basic game play purposes (and I fully agree that without all the models, a lot of this is pointless), its another to create themed forces.
Yet another check mark in the ever continuing fail factory that is Palladium.
Because, as a small-minded chimp whose every action is motivated by the fear of being sued (and the hope that he can sue someone else!), of course Kevin would immediately send his minion out to fix that.
Merijeek wrote: Because, as a small-minded chimp whose every action is motivated by the fear of being sued (and the hope that he can sue someone else!), of course Kevin would immediately send his minion out to fix that.
Please don't lump small-minded chimps in with this fail factory. Even Palladium offends their small mindedness.
Zentradi Regult Allow Regult/HInf/LInf Squads to take Veteran, but don't provide cost (10/5/5 on 2014 versions).
Unless I'm missing something, the veteran upgrades are in the powerpoint slide below... and they seem to have been jacked up significantly for some reason
Nope, you're missing something.
Due to PB's decision to use a weird naming terminology, there's a difference between Squadron (the large core cards) and Squad (the smaller support cards). The Squadrons have the upgrade, and the appropriate costs to do so. The Squads have the upgrade, but no stated cost. It's not hard to figure out what it's supposed to be (half the size of the Squadron being half the cost), but it is an omission from the lists.
Credit where credit is due, the Force Orgs are up.
Easy to explain......
1. The symbols are the same as the ones on the Force Orgs that I did. I could not remember where I got them. I was asked though. Told Scott they needed to be either redone or given credit for since they were on a free site.
Palladium is a copyright infringer? This should be fun!
warboss wrote: Ah, thanks for the clarification. My bad...
No worries. And the use of squadron/squad just adds unnecessary confusion. While both ARE used in military TOE's, they're not normally both used in the same. TOE's vary from country to country, and even branch to branch.
For aircraft, a Group is made up of 2+ Wings, which is made up of 3+ Squadrons which is made up of 3+ Flights, each consisting of 3-6 actual aircraft.
Weirdly, USN and Commonwealth forces use this, but the USAF and USMC flip the definition of Group and Wing. I'm sure THAT has never caused confusion. Additionally, some TOE's list the individual planes as Elements, but the USAF considers an Element to be 2-3 aircraft.
For infantry, a Battalion is made up of 2-10 Companies, which is made up of 3-10 Platoons, which is made up of 2-4 Squads of 8-12 men (that can be split into 2-4 Fire Teams).
For armored, there's a lot of variation, as there's not a lot of uniformity. A WW2 Tank Battalion was made up of 53 Shermans, split into 3 Companies (approx 17 each), with each Company being split into 3 Platoons (approx 5 each). It also had a Company of 17 Stuarts, and a crapload of other personnel and equipment as seen in the link.
Battletech uses Battalions (3C+1L), Companies (3L) and Lances (4 Mechs) for it's original TOE. It was Battletech that got me interested in TOE's to begin with way back at the start. I loved their 3025 listings and would pore through the books.
That PB decided on taking two similarly named (but significantly different) TOE definitions and making it confusing, is classic PB. They should have definitely used Flight and Element for aircraft (including Valks regardless of configuration), and Squad and Fireteam for ground forces (or Platoon and Section). Just to avoid confusions. But it's probably too late now.
Honestly, I believe they used squadron because that's how they're referred to in the (translated) cartoon. Skull Squadron and Vermillion Squadron being the two I remember being mentioned.
Stormonu wrote: Honestly, I believe they used squadron because that's how they're referred to in the (translated) cartoon. Skull Squadron and Vermillion Squadron being the two I remember being mentioned.
That's a good point regarding the series. Then use Squadron (for the Core card) and Flight or Element for the Support Card for aerial formations, even if it's not properly representative, it's at least still within one step of the same standard TOE naming convention.
And then Squad and Fireteam for ground formations.
So you even get some kind of alliteration of Squadron/Squad as the Core, and Flight/Fireteam as the Support.
But Squadron/Squad was always going to have at least some confusion.
But honestly, I can see HG getting the license renewed - "Robotech" is just about a dead property anyway. Especially now, with PB's bungling of this Kickstarter.
The license holder will weigh some money from HG vs. 'unsure' and/or 'no' money from...no one else wanting it?
Big West would like to license out Macross Frontier and Delta. Which they have problems doing while HG still have anything to argue they have the license.
Jefffar wrote: I believe at more than one point Vermillion was referred to as a Squad instead of a Squadron
If we're talking about the show, I was watching the episodes Sweet Sixteen, Miss Macross, and Blind Game last night. In those episodes they refer to it as "Vermillion Group."
n815e wrote: They also frequently change up ranks of characters.
Sometimes it's lieutenant, sometimes it's sergeant...
The show wasn't always consistent.
I certainly agree.
However, from what I'm understanding from the discussion, the game uses "Squadron" and "Squad" as game terms for unit organization, and due to the similarity of the terms it's easy to confuse them. Using "Squadron" and "Group" would have been a better solution in keeping with at least some instances of terminology in the show.
n815e wrote: They also frequently change up ranks of characters.
Sometimes it's lieutenant, sometimes it's sergeant...
The show wasn't always consistent.
The RPG books from the 80's are just as bad at getting ranks wrong - the RDF manual has a section using US army ranks, including for airmen and the likes of Admiral Hayes and Gloval.
However, I do agree that using Squadron/Squad was a horrible idea, it's as bad as trying to remember the difference between Tornado Watch/Warning around these parts (which I still have trouble with, coming from Earthquake prone but Tornado poor California). Squadron/Element would have been my choice for the designation if it needed to be applied to land and air units.
Well, it looks like Scott's decided that the fortnightly Updates get to be shifted if there's a delay.
This past Tuesday is four weeks since the second last one. If he wanted to get back on schedule, there would have been one this week. And given that the last two Updates re ForceOrgs don't include any business related details (quotes, where's the money, etc), there should be SOMETHING to post. Hell, even if there was info in the prior Update, it's still been a week. Has anything been done? (answer is almost certainly no)
Which means any time Scott needs personal time, he gets to reset the clock. That's convenient! Does that mean that the next Update is next Tuesday (Tuesday was Update day), or next Wednesday (two weeks since "Update Nine")?
Eh, no need to get bent out of shape. Besides the fact the next update will continue to reveal no new information, he posted in the last update (not the one with the copyright attributation) that his next post would be Oct 31.
At this point, I'm just sitting back with popcorn (or is it Khorne flakes?) and watching the mantra of folks asking where the money is. I'm hoping some legal entity will begin to take notice of the clamor.
Stormonu wrote: I'm hoping some legal entity will begin to take notice of the clamor.
If a legal entity didn't chime in at the time when this starting going ploin-shaped (IE when Ninja Division ejected from this fiasco), what makes you think they will chime in now?
Stormonu wrote: I'm hoping some legal entity will begin to take notice of the clamor.
If a legal entity didn't chime in at the time when this starting going ploin-shaped (IE when Ninja Division ejected from this fiasco), what makes you think they will chime in now?
Mostly wishful thinking. Partly, thinking someone in the crowd might do an "enough is enough" and take either file something legally, or point a legal entity at the comments and it piques their interest to at least investigate. Mayhaps the Michigan AG now might interested since the Flint issue seems to have queited down?
Still, it'd require someone to be willing to throw good money after bad, and I get the sense we all feel we have better things to waste our money on.
Just a thought, would Kevin use remaining RTT Kickstarter funds to fund his legal aid against a suit being brought against his mishandling of the funds related to the project?
Note anyone he replies seriously to this is getting in way too deep
Nah, Kevin would simply sell off his IP assets to Rogue Heroes and then after PB goes bankrupt, he'd announce he'd been taken on by his good friend Carmen/Casey as their business manager....he's not running the company - honestly!
wilycoyote wrote: Just a thought, would Kevin use remaining RTT Kickstarter funds to fund his legal aid against a suit being brought against his mishandling of the funds related to the project?
I doubt there's any money left, but, with the Up Front KS project, I'm guessing that's pretty much what happened.
I don't know why I still get updates from Pallidium.. I requested so many times for it to stop.. and now I just mark it as spam
but every once in a while I will look at it..
One thing is they still promise things to be released that is almost impossible.. but promise it anyway..
Prime example is just in the last updated.. They listed Rifter 78 as shipping next week.. (First week of November)
Okay that sounds legitimate. But they are promising Rifter 79 to be released by the End of November.
So they only produce a few of these a year and now they ship two in one month??... I don't see that happening..
The other sad thing is they list "Coming Titles in the Works" and no where is it mention of anything Robotech Tactics..
I guess paying someone over a million dollars to work on something is not enough to keep his interest.
Clearly Kevin has moved on from the dumpster fire and hopes if he ignores it long enough it will just go away..
(I wonder if that's how he ended up divorced)
Let us be fair here, kevin has handed the poisioned chalice that is Robotech tactics over to Scott.. So it is Scott and Scott alone who will post any updates about it - and will also be blamed by the master designer Kevin for any and all that has gone wrong.
So in the PBWU , Kevin can devote paragraphs to Halloween, geese, Xmas packages and his 25 an hour day working schedule without any thought to those who effectively trusted him with $1.5 million. He can concentrate on bashing out a page or two of the best ever rpg material the world has seen and ignore those ungrateful wretches who dare question him.
wilycoyote wrote: Let us be fair here, kevin has handed the poisioned chalice that is Robotech tactics over to Scott.. So it is Scott and Scott alone who will post any updates about it - and will also be blamed by the master designer Kevin for any and all that has gone wrong.
So in the PBWU , Kevin can devote paragraphs to Halloween, geese, Xmas packages and his 25 an hour day working schedule without any thought to those who effectively trusted him with $1.5 million. He can concentrate on bashing out a page or two of the best ever rpg material the world has seen and ignore those ungrateful wretches who dare question him.
Ya same old same old from Kev . Now Scott is another guy who not doing anything for Robotech at all oh well. I just saw Rob's 5 bad games , he was so right about Robotech tactics Rpg. Kev BIG Christmas Grab season Bag now. Later
It clogs up the top spot of the sci-fi forum for a game that's pretty much dead, or actively being killed off by poor management.
At some point, you have to let it go.
Heck, take this failure as an opportunity to create something better that isn't stuck in a quagmire. How about a new mecha game? I have artist contacts that are itching to create a new series of mecha.
It clogs up the top spot of the sci-fi forum for a game that's pretty much dead, or actively being killed off by poor management.
At some point, you have to let it go.
Heck, take this failure as an opportunity to create something better that isn't stuck in a quagmire. How about a new mecha game? I have artist contacts that are itching to create a new series of mecha.
You've just convinced me to start posting in it regularly.
It clogs up the top spot of the sci-fi forum for a game that's pretty much dead, or actively being killed off by poor management.
At some point, you have to let it go.
Heck, take this failure as an opportunity to create something better that isn't stuck in a quagmire. How about a new mecha game? I have artist contacts that are itching to create a new series of mecha.
It clogs up the top spot of the sci-fi forum for a game that's pretty much dead, or actively being killed off by poor management.
At some point, you have to let it go.
Heck, take this failure as an opportunity to create something better that isn't stuck in a quagmire. How about a new mecha game? I have artist contacts that are itching to create a new series of mecha.
It clogs up the top spot of the sci-fi forum for a game that's pretty much dead, or actively being killed off by poor management.
At some point, you have to let it go.
Heck, take this failure as an opportunity to create something better that isn't stuck in a quagmire. How about a new mecha game? I have artist contacts that are itching to create a new series of mecha.
Nope, not done.
This thread is the only enjoyment I get out of RRT these days.
It clogs up the top spot of the sci-fi forum for a game that's pretty much dead, or actively being killed off by poor management.
At some point, you have to let it go.
Heck, take this failure as an opportunity to create something better that isn't stuck in a quagmire. How about a new mecha game? I have artist contacts that are itching to create a new series of mecha.
There are a lot of people understandably upset about how this campaign was and is being handled.
Palladium insists that Wave 2 is boiling/coming soon/is almost here/etc.
At this point, it is probably a better idea to just not post in this thread if the alternative is some sort of gas/matchstick or open door/throw in grenade/shut door style effort.
In other words, telling people to 'get over it' isn't in fact going to help them get over it.
Having said that, let's all move on from that, yes?
What'd really get his goat is to learn there's a whole 'nother thread with over 200 pages in it. (Which makes me wonder, are we due for a switch to a new thread with an update from Forar, our resident wordsmith?)
On a completely different note, over this weekend I was modding my SNES classic and came across two games I never knew about - a Robotech game for the NES and what appears to have been an unreleased "valkrie flight simulator" for the N64. I hate that these two titles never got to reach the US due to HG's douchery, and it sours me towards this whole situation even more.
Out of idle curiosity, what is the state of everyone's collection? Mine's been assembled, the RDF primed and a squad or two partly painted. It's all been put on the shelf, and I don't have anyone who is even interested in playing a game, so I haven't tried out the rules (though reading over them, the sound okay - just too many H-T-H combat options that mostly won't get used).
LOL, suit yourselves guys. Keeping the thread around is fine if you feel you need it.
I was just hoping some here would move on and do something like create the thing they've been looking for instead of waiting for a company that is highly unlikely to fulfill your desires.
Fine, you don't need to get over it, but using the anger to move forward is more helpful.
There is a serious lack of a good mecha game on the market, and a group of angry like minded people like in this thread could be motivated to beat RRT at its own game.
Stormonu wrote: What'd really get his goat is to learn there's a whole 'nother thread with over 200 pages in it. (Which makes me wonder, are we due for a switch to a new thread with an update from Forar, our resident wordsmith?)
Was going to point out the same thing. Though that thread was 337 pages (meaning we're at 679 pages total), which also means it probably is about time to reboot.
Stormonu wrote: Out of idle curiosity, what is the state of everyone's collection? Mine's been assembled, the RDF primed and a squad or two partly painted. It's all been put on the shelf, and I don't have anyone who is even interested in playing a game, so I haven't tried out the rules (though reading over them, the sound okay - just too many H-T-H combat options that mostly won't get used).
Only have the rulebook and one sprue of Battlepods (from Forar, more than just a wordsmith!) after getting out early. Haven't touched the Battlepods (which I was going to use as cheap proxies for Naga for Heavy Gear), due to a downturn in wargaming in my local group. Focus has been more on boardgaming, and that's fun, but I'd still like to wargame on occasion.
There's nothing in the rules that makes me sorry I bugged out. They seem serviceable, outside of the H2H and Blast rules (and massive keyword focus), but they're mostly derivative, and there isn't anything I can't get from other games. I am still curious what the differences were between the original ND version was, and what alleged plagiarist Carmen significantly "rewrote". Because I'm skeptical it was the mess claimed, or the amount of work done to change it was significant. Happy to be proven wrong.
There's plenty of good mecha games rolling about, it's just frustrating that this one - with "official" designs from a beloved cartoon took a rather ungraceful dive into a burning dumpster.
Our local motorhead, Mike1975 has tried to make a living game out of this carcass, but it hasn't seemed to catch on. It's like folks are waiting for the original publisher to support it or something (that last bit is sarcasm, if you weren't aware).
The people who've done "something about it" appear to have been moved on, completely. If the other people here are like me, we're mostly off on our other hobbies, and we just check in regularly to see if this slow-moving train wreck has finished yet, waiting for the cloud of debris to settle just so we see how the whole thing finally pans out. And throw out a few jabs at the perpetrators so they don't get off bilking us for free. I've still got a few hundred dollars worth of jabs to get out of my system - it's going to be a while, since opinions cost nothing.
<EDIT> If they would deliver Wave 2 or come out and tell us the project is dead and they're done, this thread would probably die in a week. As long as the KS continues to sit and spin, going nowhere, this thread probably will as well.
It's not like posting and reading in here takes up a lot of time in aggregate. I don't think anyone here is having their life profoundly impacted by this ongoing gakshow. It's basically Dakka's Misc Sci-Fi equivalent of an old 12 Step Program where we mostly just check in to say hi, crack a little snark, and hope that the coffee/cookies at break time are worth showing up for.
PB drops a weekly newsletter, or Scott posts his bi-weekly Not An Update and they garner a little eye rolling and snark. Lives are not in jeopardy of being wasted any more than they would be as we while away a little time on any number of other forums or topics.
Bluntly put, it's adorable that your wording still alludes, however unintentionally, that we require your permission or approval. (Spoiler: obviously we don't).
It is Alpharius' willingness to leave us a long running space for venting and mockery that is appreciated and respected. Bluntly, we've had dozens of people come and go, usually with nothing vested or to say but 'omg why worry about it', as though contributing hundreds or perhaps substantially more to a gakshow of a project is something that isn't worth being frustrated by.
If nothing else, it is a public service. Anyone who might stumble across one of the largest war gaming forums on the internet and looking for a discussion on the topic of RRT might just find us, and see that there is a lot of chatter! And then find out just how much of a gakshow that chatter indicates this game/project to be.
Stormonu wrote: Out of idle curiosity, what is the state of everyone's collection?
I finished assembling one modded Veritech in Guardian mode, started painting it, screwed up, stripped the paint off, primed it again, then... forgot about it to work on X-Men and Warmachine models. I recently took it back out of storage and it's sitting on my desk at the top of the "waiting to be painted" queue, but... I haven't actually gotten around to starting on it again yet.
I'm not really feeling motivated right now; too busy with various other hobbies (coughOverwatchcough), never mind "Real Life". I've just kind of been demotivated with painting in general lately to be honest. My long-term plan for my Robotech miniatures (once I decided the game wasn't for me) was originally just a handful of minis: one Veritech (by which I mean one, not "one in each mode") each for Roy, Max, Miriya, and maybe Ben, and one Veritech in each mode in a custom paint scheme. Nowadays I don't know if I'll ever find the time for them, there's just so much else on my list and I'm just so bad at sticking to one thing.
Must be the exception, I got everything assembled and painted from Wave 1(Showdown pledge) To be fair I had been laid up for a few weeks and the idea of still getting the wave 2 stuff was more reality than fantasy.
Got a fair few games in as well but without the options from wave 2 the Zentradi get very stale - nevermind difficult to win with. Switched to Mike's Nodal Wars and then the new version for a while and even mucked around using the under appreciated Horizon Wars.
Now the models are stored away and I have moved on to other games
Out of idle curiosity, what is the state of everyone's collection?
Last year I moved and only had one buddy to show up and help.. Even had offered cash money..
But after moving all my game stuff he fell in love with the Box set (our group played a ton of Robotech
RPG in the 80's) and I offered everything in lieu of money.
Explained the background what the complaints about building and current condition of the kickstarter but
he was fine with it.. Actually he was one of our better modelers/ painter growing up, so wasn't to worried.
Then about a month later, he texted me telling me that he assembled one battle pod and drove him insane..
Compared it to home dentistry, Never saw the finished model when I was at his house and we rarely discuss
the game because we have other more "active" games to talk about.
I assembled a dozen pods (they're not bad) and painted six of them, and assembled one troika of valkyries - those are terrible. 45 minute assembly time per valkyrie, regardless of configuration? When it became apparent that the stuff I really wanted (all the interesting Zentradi stuff) was going to be indefinitely delayed, I gave up and shelved it. The game mechanics didn't impress me.
Stormonu wrote: Out of idle curiosity, what is the state of everyone's collection?
MOSTLY WAITING FOR DELIVERY!
I split for $40 worth of the pledge bonuses and added $40 for the Monster. I've gotten roughly $25 of it, but it is assembled and gathering dust.
... as of March, 2015. So more than 2-1/2 years and nothing.
I went to an not so local (50+ miles away) FLGS swap meet and found my second ever person in a major metro US city to have bought the game. He didn't back the KS but bought two boxes at retail. He couldn't convince anyone to play and was selling at a good discount. Sadly, I had similar luck but at least I have roughly 250pts sans copious upgrades painted for both factions. I sold off my own unpainted sprues at a big discount and left myself one sprue of each type in case I ever want to make more.
Not too long after receiving wave one I built about a dozen figures (I want to say maybe 6 Battlepods and a pair of VT's in all 3 modes?), which have been tucked away in my closet for the last 3 years or so, along with a small amount of each figure type (like, 2 of each Destroid, a few more pods and VTs, etc), but out of the 3 Battle Cry tiers I personally received from the 8 that my friends and I ordered together, I sold off the vast majority shortly after it came in.
One friend has assembled maybe 2 dozen figures or so, enough to do some tutorials but hasn't ever played the game, far as I know.
The other got 3 BC's as well, and best I can tell they're just sitting in a closet somewhere. He has pondered selling them as well, or just throwing them out, but his interest and engagement is negligible.
I assembled a few Valkyries in fighter and guardian mode, made some of the other mecha, started some Battloid mode Valkyries before deciding I didn't like Battloid mode enough to bother, converted a few fighters, built three normal Z pods, converted three more into more appealing forms, tried to make space fighters out of them, but no wig and makeup can ever get them to look like Gnerls. Mostly, I raid the sprues for bits to add to spaceships I kitbash out of 1/1200 navy ships and Gunpla parts.
In short, I've moved the whole box into the bits bin.
I've scratched my mecha itch with Bandai's Mecha collection minis for a while now.
Yeah...I've had probably the biggest change of anybody here with what I'm doing for a hobby.
Now it's shopping for shoes, and clothes, and jewelry.
Since someone might ask, but nobody really cares:
I got tired of hating myself, and explored the why. Found, that deep down inside, I'm a woman. Started HRT(hormone replacement therapy) and feel better than I have ever felt before. All those buried desires have cropped up, I'd rather get electrolysis, to remove my beard, than get this game, so I want the refund that I know I'll never get.
Gaming was my escape from myself, I don't need it as a crutch anymore.
Forar wrote: If nothing else, it is a public service. Anyone who might stumble across one of the largest war gaming forums on the internet and looking for a discussion on the topic of RRT might just find us, and see that there is a lot of chatter! And then find out just how much of a gakshow that chatter indicates this game/project to be.
This thread is how I found out about Dakka in the first place. Never heard of it until I googled for RRT news and followed this thread down the rabbit hole.
megatrons2nd wrote: Yeah...I've had probably the biggest change of anybody here with what I'm doing for a hobby.
Now it's shopping for shoes, and clothes, and jewelry.
Since someone might ask, but nobody really cares:
I got tired of hating myself, and explored the why. Found, that deep down inside, I'm a woman. Started HRT(hormone replacement therapy) and feel better than I have ever felt before. All those buried desires have cropped up, I'd rather get electrolysis, to remove my beard, than get this game, so I want the refund that I know I'll never get.
Gaming was my escape from myself, I don't need it as a crutch anymore.
Conversion was always my favourite part of the hobby too!
Vertrucio wrote: LOL, suit yourselves guys. Keeping the thread around is fine if you feel you need it.
I was just hoping some here would move on and do something like create the thing they've been looking for instead of waiting for a company that is highly unlikely to fulfill your desires.
Fine, you don't need to get over it, but using the anger to move forward is more helpful.
There is a serious lack of a good mecha game on the market, and a group of angry like minded people like in this thread could be motivated to beat RRT at its own game.
To be more constructive in response to moving on:
- Palladium books is still in business and appears to have a habit of over-promising and pretty much very late or never delivering.
There are many factors involved with this, main thing is: they have our money due to what could be argued as fraudulent methods.
This is not something easily let go and is kept active to be a cautionary tale and not let them sweep everything under the rug.
Good therapy as well.
- We wanted Robotech. THIS IP we may be involved in others, but this voicing of displeasure may force some changes, HG the IP holder is licensing a couple other companies that are making games.
- We are not so much "waiting" for them to fulfill our desires, unless you spoke a bit more with the "White Knights" of Palladium. I do admit, by expressing my "needs" very vocally, I am able to get the remaining miniatures I wanted through other means. An arguable success.
- There are many kinds of what I would call "good" mecha games out there but few see any large amount of success. Battletech with their Alphastrike is seeing play with myself and I am sure a few others. Heavy Gear was always in the background for me, but I never really got into it.
Before you find people being upset amusing, please think if some cool thing from your childhood gets dusted off and gets offered in your medium of choice, then you get part of it, the rest is never to be seen again for years at a time, OH, and no-one else is allowed to make it.
It makes things rather hard to "move-on" to something different, that is not what we want and most of us already play all kinds of different games.
Do not assume we are waiting on this one thing in order to play at all.
Automatically Appended Next Post: For how far I have progressed with the hobby, I have been painting up a bit more these guys from a while back:
And have steadily getting in and making some of the remaining models we did not get.
I should take a picture of my Monster: printing at a course resolution makes for a fair bit of cleanup trying to smooth everything out.
Stormonu wrote: Out of idle curiosity, what is the state of everyone's collection?
Given that I went back to college during this period, my time on my bench was severely limited and work was done when I could find time between studying and other matters demanding my attention. All my destroids are painted and primed, the majority of my Battle-pods are in mostly assembled, including the recon, officers and artillery battlepods. I want to say about 50% of my battlepods are done, and only a small handful of Valkyrie in all three flight modes have been completed.
I haven't felt any particular need, or desire, to try and complete the rest of it. I have too much of a queue that's becoming less and less on things I want to work on right now.
I have three choices:
1.) Hold on to them on the slimmest chance Wave 2 does get released.
2.) Sell them, but then Wave 2 is released and I get the balance of the figs owed only to have to sell them two.
3.) Chuck them into the garbage compactor.
Yes, your honor, I play with toy soldiers from a cartoon in the 1980s. No I can't play my game with these toys I need toys that look a tiny bit different to REALLY play it.
Did they take money in exchange for a product?
Did they provide everything they agreed to in the contract?
Did they misuse the money?
Did they provide the product in the timeframe that they indicated?
Did they use the methods that they indicated when they took the money?
Did they provide effective communication as to the cause and reasons of the delay?
Nothing else is relevant.
I am not so insecure in my hobbies to be ashamed of playing with toy soldiers in the first place.
I'm an educated and respected professional, a responsible adult, I own property and pay taxes, I have a family. I couldn't care less what anyone thinks of what I do with my free time.
If you took my money in exchange for a product -- any product -- in a legal transaction, then you owe me and the law is not going to judge the merit of that based on if it is for toys, car parts, food or any other product.
So this angle of yours to try to belittle what is owed or to shame those who are owed is nonsense.
And, Kev slaps down a quote from China (that nobody can read) and says that is from a week ago and production will maybe start in 2 months. This person is crazy and I don't know why I'm here.
Another bit of nonsense. In your imagination, you think courts don't require documents to have been interpreted.
In your imagination, years of misleading customers can be wiped away with some piece of paper indicating that things will finally start (possibly) moving.
Read your own posts - court isn't like tv.
I'm glad we have someone that pretends to know anything about law, again. It's been a while. The condescension mixed with ignorance is entertaining.
Did they take money in exchange for a product?
No they did not (again, I'm KS only). In KS's ToS you "invest". The risk is on you.
Did they provide everything they agreed to in the contract?
Sort of, they are "working" on wave 2.
Did they misuse the money?
Kev knows, but won't say without thousands of dollars in legal fees.
Did they provide the product in the timeframe that they indicated?
Things happened beyond their control
Did they use the methods that they indicated when they took the money?
What does that mean?
Did they provide effective communication as to the cause and reasons of the delay?
Yes, they provided many, many updates
Again, if anybody wants to file in MI. I'll happily guide them thru the process.
No takers?
Like I've said before in small claims you'll have an hour to explain to the judge why Kev wronged you. You will have to do a bunch of back filling about why you went to these lengths. He just has to show quotes and say "working on it".
If you want to go criminal (lol), assuming a AG pushes it, you have to tell 12 people that couldn't escape thise and have maybe 1 or 2 days (8 to 16 hours) to explain all of this.
Nobody on this board has a single good argument for the following questions:
1) Where is the $
2) Why is it taking so long
Discovery will show that. I'm willing to lawyer up to anybody in MI that wants to waste their time.
Kev can just say:
1) Here are fake (or maybe not) books on how the $ was spent and it 100% went to the project
2) China is hard to deal witrh
We simply don't know the truth
Most likely:
1) Kev spent all of the $ keeping PB afloat
2) Who cares
Anybody want to fly to MI (or is already there) and can give me a call and I'll walk them thru the paperwork?
Man, the whole notion of creating the game you want instead of complaining about this situation to move on is just insulting.
We legally cannot. All those dudes selling 3d prints of all the unproduced models and eras are doing so illegally and blantatly violating IP laws.
You cannot legally make and distribute anything involving this IP without coming back to the same stopping poing that continues to get discussed here.
Anyone asserting that we can build the thing we love and move on lacks understanding of the whole situation. It is impossible as long as HG is in the picture.
evancich wrote: Anybody want to fly to MI (or is already there) and can give me a call and I'll walk them thru the paperwork?
No? Yeah, that is what I thought
Been to Michigan, Dearborn in particular many times, not a very appealing offer.
With no guarantees of an "expert" on the other end despite your swagger it would not be worth the trip.
This offer to "help" sounds disingenuous especially with how "pleasantly" you phrased it.
It would be hard to take any advice you would give without some measure of suspicion.
Plus: griping at Palladium Books is about the right speed for being owed a couple hundred bucks.
If I had bought the "Bursting Point" package, I would have already filed, engaged confirmed experts and been into it while kicking myself the whole time throwing good money after bad but being financially committed.
Nobody on this board has a single good argument for the following questions:
1) Where is the $
2) Why is it taking so long
A good argument? These questions are the crux of the matter.
I would push refund and call it a day, small claims is all about expedience (done it in my country, I figure judges are not much different anywhere else).
I paid money and did not get all my agreed stuff for years well past the estimated ship date, they give no new ship date and they refuse refunds.
Done.
It would then require taking reasonable steps of showing evidence like the BBB complaints filed and their rather dumb responses back on just asking for a reasonable refund (already asked for the "backerkit" purchases only to be refuneded).
No failure was claimed on their part so the "delay" is completely voluntary and within their control... so refund is the only answer OR being forced into a court ordered ship date (the court would not want to get into an extended argument of that nature).
Kudos for coming to such a profound realization, and I hope you find happiness in games as a hobby rather than a crutch in the future.
Already at that point. It's just a hobby, and I spend less time on here as well. It's not the all consuming beast it once was. There have been many realizations that I have had in the last few months. Turns out, I've actually lived an amazing life. To bad I wasn't there to truly experience it. I have written two ~500 word essays about myself, and how HRT has helped me. This discovery also awoke a drive to do something with my life. Nothing like just doing things because you had to, as compared to wanting to. Going to school to become a psychologist. I will get to help people, something that I was meant to do.
The first paragraph of the first one:
"Imagine, if you would, waking up every morning with the first thought of the day being “Oh, crap, I woke up”. Then, as you draw your carcass out of the bed, you wonder what fresh hell is going to come your way today. You absolutely hate all of humanity, especially yourself. No matter what happens, all you see is the negative, and feel that everyone is going out of their way just to irritate you. By the end of the day, as you crawl in bed, you wish, pray, and dream of being something you can never be. How would you feel? What would you do?"
There is a lot of pain that I had buried, and tried to escape. You can never get away from yourself.
As to the amazing life I missed. I've been through most of the continental US, been to Niagara Falls twice, been to more countries (6) than the average American will ever see, crossed the international dateline on my 21st birthday landing before I took off; I got to celebrate turning 21 twice, had a Chinese woman's brother tell me that she loved me, Followed the culture of Kuwait by speaking only with the husband; at least until he let me speak with his wife they got comfortable enough with me to let her remove her robes in front of me, she wore a Megadeath T-shirt and jean with ripped up knees underneath it. I learned pressure points, and how to use them for both fighting and relief, from an elderly Korean gentleman. The same gentleman tried to sell me his daughter to marry. I almost died from drinking to much water....twice. Food, my god the food; not all good, or desired, but the stuff I've eaten in various forms: Cat, Dog, Kangaroo, Shark, Frog, Snake, Camel, Squid, Elk, Moose, Octopus, bear, goat, and alligator.
This game I now just a minor irritant in my life. I hope the company burns, but I'd rather live my life, get a refund and be done with it. I'll be content with warning people away from them.
Normally I'm not a fan of 'fisking' posts, but if I add a third layer without some kind of clear demarcation point, it's going to be utterly unreadable.
evancich wrote: Did they take money in exchange for a product?
No they did not (again, I'm KS only). In KS's ToS you "invest". The risk is on you.
I'm not a lawyer, but I'd expect that to be arguable to some degree from the pledge manager. In the Campaign, sure, I paid $X for a "Battle Cry Tier", but in the Pledge Manager I paid them explicitly $Y for a MAC-II Monster, that they have not delivered in the 4-4.5 years since that money was taken, with no evidence provided of progress since a prototype was displayed in 2013.
Look, to be clear, I get that 'how the law works and what laypeople think is fair' may be two wildly different things. If the law says that they can glance at a piece of paper related to RRT once per 90 days and call that progress, I guess it's a hell of a hill to climb, but it's not remotely following the spirit of Kickstarter with the notion of getting to follow along behind the scenes as they actually work on the project. Aside from the once per year or so 'proof of life' renders or prototypes we get, best we backers know they spend the other 364 days a year doing anything but making tangible progress. Violating the spirit of the Kickstarter agreement/contract/whatever may not be illegal, but it's a gaky thing to do, and they do it with aplomb.
Did they provide everything they agreed to in the contract?
Sort of, they are "working" on wave 2.
Which raises the question of how far that can be taken. And that's not snark, I legit don't know. It loops around to something we've been talking about for literally 4 years now; Kickstarter being *like* many standard consumer interactions but *not being them* is not a feature of the service. It's not investing, nor is it a charitable contribution. It's not a pre-order, but campaigns with complicated pledge managers take on awfully pre-ordery elements. Kickstarter's TOU even has contingencies for 'what happens if a campaign fails, or a particular element can't be completed', and involves steps such as indicating what went wrong, showing good faith effort to make things right, providing a breakdown of how the finances were used, and whatnot. PB continues to claim that it's all good, they're just working really slowly. For years. On something that they managed to knock out in about a year from design to shipping beginning. Such a shame that a company managed to find a process that's tangibly less efficient than the one that actually worked in the first place.
Did they misuse the money?
Kev knows, but won't say without thousands of dollars in legal fees.
True. Maybe one day a backer will hit it big in the lottery and decide that a chunk of change would be worth seeing them sweat bullets in court.
Did they provide the product in the timeframe that they indicated?
Things happened beyond their control
Oh, so lying about time frames holds no bearing? A company can just move their target delivery date back on a Kickstarter for decades or centuries, no harm, no foul? Again, this is said with snark, but that seems to be what you're saying. And that's been part of our discussions going back years; Kickstarter as a platform is toothless and actively incentivized to avoid doing anything but provide said platform and take their cut. When it works, it can be great. But when gak hits the fan, it gets all over the place and nobody on their end is remotely interested in helping clean things up.
Did they provide effective communication as to the cause and reasons of the delay?
Yes, they provided many, many updates
This seems easily debatable. They say 'we're waiting on quotes' a whole bunch, but that's not effective communication. Again, as a layperson, at least. Until Scott gave some behind the scenes chatter in one of his updates, we'd gone quarters without so much as marginal details, let alone effective communications regarding the delays. If a court accepts "we're totes sorry, so disappointed, totally working like demons over here", then I guess we need to wait for a congresscritter's grandson/granddaughter to get ripped off and see some actual movement towards regulating a system that seems to have basically no support in consumer law.
Again, if anybody wants to file in MI. I'll happily guide them thru the process.
No takers?
Like I've said before in small claims you'll have an hour to explain to the judge why Kev wronged you. You will have to do a bunch of back filling about why you went to these lengths. He just has to show quotes and say "working on it".
If you want to go criminal (lol), assuming a AG pushes it, you have to tell 12 people that couldn't escape thise and have maybe 1 or 2 days (8 to 16 hours) to explain all of this.
Nobody on this board has a single good argument for the following questions: 1) Where is the $ 2) Why is it taking so long
Discovery will show that. I'm willing to lawyer up to anybody in MI that wants to waste their time.
Kev can just say: 1) Here are fake (or maybe not) books on how the $ was spent and it 100% went to the project 2) China is hard to deal witrh
We simply don't know the truth
Most likely: 1) Kev spent all of the $ keeping PB afloat 2) Who cares
Anybody want to fly to MI (or is already there) and can give me a call and I'll walk them thru the paperwork?
No? Yeah, that is what I thought
This is an unreasonable expectation. People can be frustrated and angry without being willing to commit days or weeks or months or more towards what you believe to be the effective next step. I'm not even an American citizen, so unless people want to spot me a couple grand in transportation and lodgings funding (I'll burn the vacation time myself), I'm sure not going to be interested in spending thousands to maybe recoup half a grand or so in unfilled product.
As is our way, I glanced through your posts in these threads. Seems you tossed a pretty penny into this campaign, and did some of the legwork yourself. Coolio. But why take the aggressive tone here? 'Dudes/Duddettes annoyed at PB's incompetence' doesn't mean that we're eager to drop our day jobs and try to re-enact a season of Suits against an incompetently run gaming company.
Maybe I'm just a bit grouchy today or something, perhaps this is intended simply to show how the deck is stacked in a very real manner against any potential legal proceedings, but.. yeah, we already know that. We're well aware of how bullgak it is that they can post one new 3D prototype a year and say "omg we're totally working on this!" until some arbitrary line is passed (presumably some kind of statute of limitations, a licensing issue precluding it from being possible (in 2021 or whatever), or PB's collapse/Kevin's retirement or death (likely linked) at which point someone yells "nope, nothing left here fetho's!" and flees into the night.
As Tal pointed out, 'need a good argument about where money was spent or why it's taking so long'? Bwah? Golly gee, a company basically feeds us a tablespoon of bullgak once a year and we're in the dark as to what is going on, how shocking!
Yeah, it's not likely to see progress barring a local backer getting frustrated enough to do something about it, and while I'm again ignorant of US law, I'm guessing that the steps leading up to that would be obvious enough that they'd just settle for missing wave 2 items/pro rated remainder on tiers and call it a day, so it'd need to not only be someone local, but someone local and determined to not just get their $100 (or however much) back once it's clear that they're not just making empty threats.
So really all we seem to have determined here is that local backers could probably, if motivated, get some money back, but anyone else (especially those of us outside of the US, or even the immediate vicinity within the US) are SOL.
Evancich has failed to spot the important phrasing in the binding 2012 kickstarter ToS.
Project creators are required to make a good faith effort to provide all promised rewards.
This is not a flowery turn of speech. Look up UCC 1-304 for a definition of good faith in federal law. MIchigan state law contains a similar definition.
To sum up, it means appropriate commercial standards for the relevant industry must be adhered to.
You seriously think PB can argue what they're doing and have done so far is par for the course?
I've got enough behind the scenes experience with other miniatures kickstarters to argue very, very succinctly that it is not.
The only thing saving them is that those who have figured out PB are well into breach of contract would spend more recovering their pledge than their pledge is worth.
Jeez, I think you've lived more in the last couple of years than I have in 37 years on this planet.
Best thing to come from this thread, is seeing someone cast aside some pain and embrace living a life that makes them happy.
That is 44 years of life. Granted most of that was in the 1990's. I've been pretty boring since then. Depression, and the lack of money, has really put a damper on everything. I've been transitioning for a little over a year. Just recently comfortable with letting people know. Despite the US government stating we aren't protected under Civil Rights Laws. I can now get fired just for being me, and there is nothing I can do about it. Overall, I feel better than I have in decades. This cluster feth aside.
I really wish that I could have truly experienced my life. Now I just get to look at the memories, and go "wow, I lived an amazing life".
PB is innocent until proven guilty. Going by the ToS, PB is making a reasonable effort to provide the stuff. They are doing everything required:
1) sending updates
2) they sent out wave 1
3) they are trying to make wave 2 happen
It is up to us to prove they aren't. None of us have the information to do that.
I'm 100% certain the $ is long gone. But, the only way to prove that is via discovery and I've already typed here how that works and won't in this case unless somebody wants to throw thousands at uncle kev.
There is a very good reason that I haven't done the small claims thing, which is I believe I'd lose.
There is the KS flimsy terms and the reality of being responsible. Unfortunately, Kevin is in his own dreamworld when it comes to that.
Over the course of my life, I've invested in many games of which I won't get a return on - monetarily, emotionally, or playwise. This one just irritates me because there is no closure - no sign of Wave 2 and no admission the project is dead and can't be fulfilled. If we got an either/or, at least we could all move on to what comes next. Until then, i just keep poking my head in to see if Karma/the Law/ or Kevin's concience has caught up with the project.
I don't want to throw more good money after bad, but I wouldn't cry if this fiasco finally tanked PB - they dug their own grave with this one with a company that had shot itself practically in the head a long time ago.
Stormonu wrote: Out of idle curiosity, what is the state of everyone's collection? Mine's been assembled, the RDF primed and a squad or two partly painted. It's all been put on the shelf, and I don't have anyone who is even interested in playing a game, so I haven't tried out the rules (though reading over them, the sound okay - just too many H-T-H combat options that mostly won't get used).
I opened my box and looked over the sprues, but they are just such a mess, and I was so angry over the game, that I just packed everything away and stuck it in a corner of the garage. At this point, I don't anticipate ever putting together any of the miniatures or playing the game. Its just money flushed down the toilet.
Stormonu wrote: Out of idle curiosity, what is the state of everyone's collection? Mine's been assembled, the RDF primed and a squad or two partly painted. It's all been put on the shelf, and I don't have anyone who is even interested in playing a game, so I haven't tried out the rules (though reading over them, the sound okay - just too many H-T-H combat options that mostly won't get used).
I opened my box and looked over the sprues, but they are just such a mess, and I was so angry over the game, that I just packed everything away and stuck it in a corner of the garage. At this point, I don't anticipate ever putting together any of the miniatures or playing the game. Its just money flushed down the toilet.
Pretty much me too. I bought two starters at retail and a box of Zent Arty and the non-box Destroids. I opened one starter, looked at the contents, read the rulebook and haven't done anything since.
However, I do think you can use the models very well in other games that I DO play, but I just haven't been bothered. Games like Horizon Wars and Rampant Stars.
In the last year I have built/painted next to nothing and anything I did work on was for All Quiet on the Martian Front instead (also bought at Retail). I have played many games of that.
I'm going to say congrats as well, Megatron that's a big revelation. I'm glad at least something came from all this.
Out of idle curiosity, what is the state of everyone's collection? Mine's been assembled, the RDF primed and a squad or two partly painted. It's all been put on the shelf, and I don't have anyone who is even interested in playing a game, so I haven't tried out the rules (though reading over them, the sound okay - just too many H-T-H combat options that mostly won't get used).
I sold my stuff about as soon as I got it. I actually feel pretty bad about it since I promised the buyer I'd send him the Wave 2 stuff as well (oops). I still took a bit of a loss to get the minis off my hands.
I did keep 1 box of destroids since Unseen mechs are awesome. I assembled 1 and the rest of the sprue went into my unfinished projects box. I actually just found it again yesterday while looking for some bases and wow these are still awful minis.
Jefffar wrote: So, saw a local game shop picked up some RTT boxes for retail. No core boxes, just expansion packs.
I can't recall them.having any RTT stuff in the past couple of years, so either someone sold them unopened packs, or they decided to order the stock.
I really don't think there is a major push for the models. Last I looked at Miniature Market they had all the stuff on Clearance.
More that likely a distributor had ample stock of the expansions and was selling them for penny on the dollar to clear year end inventory.
Any shop will pick up dirt cheap stuff just to throw on the shelves.. Even if it don't sale.. the shop don't have that much invested.. (not like RTT Backers)
Thank you to everyone who has sent in their thoughts to feedback{at}palladiumbooks{dot}com so far on the Force Organization Charts. Please feel free to send in more thoughts and ideas as you can.
SDF-1 Bases - still waiting
I am still waiting on the new renders for the SDF-1 bases. As soon as I get them I will post them here.
Final Thoughts
To all those who celebrate Halloween, I hope you had wonderful (and spooky) fun. I'll be back again in two weeks, November 14th.
It doesn't appear as if Scott is even going to bother to try now...
Alpharius wrote: It doesn't appear as if Scott is even going to bother to try now...
That definitely seems to be the case. I do idly wonder how much the lack of enthusiasm from him is on the negative reception, or how little he's getting from PBHQ. Basically is he a corporate shill complicit in deceiving backers, or a well meaning dupe who was convinced that he could turn things around, only to run head first into Kevin's incompetent bs. End result is the same, but if he's still there in the new year peddling this crap, the answer is clearly the former.
Another idle wonder is how many emails he actually received regarding the force orgs. Cause as I mentioned here and on PB's forum, myself excepted, I've seen zero discussion publicly. It definitely smells of Kevin's brand of overexuberant wankery masquerading as significance.
Alpharius wrote: At least the water has finally all boiled away now, right?
They are trying to re-condense the steam.
Despite what little optimism that may remain in me, when it comes to Palladium doing anything for RRT: it will only get dusted off if they can see some means of flogging some other spin-off item.
Looking at PB website updates, Kev is back to his main focus on his beloved books: business as usual (Christmas surprise package!!!).
At least their Christmas offering is more honest than normal: they give you what they feel like giving you, which is how they always operated.
There is only so much we can talk about here for getting our wave1 stuff useful, the fancy models are all wave2 and anything I may have there is not IP licensed / approved stuff.
Really strange state of affairs.
Customers that really wanted stuff and a supplier that really wants the money, but does not want to supply the stuff...
Oh well.
Fantasy Flight and Games Workshop has been "good" in my books and been a good distraction.
Ah excellent you guys are still discussing this. I have computed the results from my poll and will share the results with you guys soon.
I was also inspired to re-open my box set and give some thought to assembling the minis, but man, it looks like I would never end. Assuming I was to properly sand down each part and take the time to paint well. And then I would just be disappointed with the game play.
n815e wrote: Christmas Surprise Packages keep the company afloat. That's what gets Kevin's attention.
While I can't believe that's true...is it actually true?
I couldn't possibly know that, just speculation.
However, they run it 4-6 months per year. They sell the stuff to their customers for essentially wholesale prices, but directly, so they are still profiting. They get to choose what to send, which means that slow moving or damaged product still gets sold.
Even though I will probably never assemble or paint anything for this game or even play it; I still sort of want another box of Zent Arty and the Non-core Destroids.
Vertrucio wrote: LOL, suit yourselves guys. Keeping the thread around is fine if you feel you need it.
I was just hoping some here would move on and do something like create the thing they've been looking for instead of waiting for a company that is highly unlikely to fulfill your desires.
Fine, you don't need to get over it, but using the anger to move forward is more helpful.
There is a serious lack of a good mecha game on the market, and a group of angry like minded people like in this thread could be motivated to beat RRT at its own game.
Funny you mention that, because there's a very active facebook group for RRT and they've been doing just that: creating missing figures. I'm at work and can't get on facebook to grab photos to repost, but there's a few guys that are creating STL files to 3D print your own Southern Cross and MOSPEADA figures and they've created fan rules for using them. So there ARE people that are doing with this game exactly what PB SHOULD be doing with it, despite PB's complete disregard for it.
Out of idle curiosity, what is the state of everyone's collection? Mine's been assembled, the RDF primed and a squad or two partly painted. It's all been put on the shelf, and I don't have anyone who is even interested in playing a game, so I haven't tried out the rules (though reading over them, the sound okay - just too many H-T-H combat options that mostly won't get used).
All the RRT figs I plan to build and paint are built and painted, although I have some extras if I ever want more duplicates. Then again, I never planned on using Palladium's rules unless they really knocked it out of the park. I got into Battletech because they made Robotech figures. I supported RRT to get Robotech figures for my Battletech (it's a vicious, vicious cycle) since it meant high quality Unseens that were EXACTLY Robotech figures instead of slightly different Robotech figures. RRT as a game has little appeal to me, the rules are far too simple for my taste in games and Macross was always my least favorite of the 3 sub series. Macross is still great, but my love has alwys been the destroids and the Zentraedi excluding the standard battlepods. The ones I care about (MPA, FPA, armored infantry, Gnerls etc) were all wave 2 and will never be done at this point, let alone Southern Cross/MOSPEADA. If RRT ever has Cyclones and Alphas and Invid I'll maybe be interested in playing actual RRT, but mostly I just picked up a select few boxes to use as BT unseens. I must say, the assembly doesn't bother me at all since I'm only building a few of them, they go together exactly like the old 1/200 scale macross models, but the idea of putting together a playable force from these figures is an instant NOPE-fest
That is some first rate work on those models - kudos on the results there.
I have been having a hankering to get some legios (the new gen/mospeada jet fighters) - in a bigger scale to sit on my desk, but the RRT scale would have them too tiny for my tired old eyes to paint.
I think in many ways its better the community has moved on and created their own stuff and left PB out of the loop. At least stuff gets done (and in probably better quality). Seems a similar sort of thing has happened with Star Trek models - with the community busy making their own models for games. I guess the lesson is if a company doesn't provide what it customers want, these days folks are just a phone text away from sharing their own creations to fill the gap.
A few of them are making larger scales, but mostly they're just treating the game as a 6mm game. The cyclones are a little more like 9mm, just to have more detail.
Please note, NONE of these following pictures are mine, ll of them are from the FB group Robotech Tactics "unnoficial"
Wow, those are nice. Wouldn't mind getting my hands on the Sentinel-style mecha, those battlepods are extremely well done - look like they came right off the cel sheet.
Well, it's certainly interesting to see how some guy can design and produce from scratch at their own home while PB can't seem to be able to even find their own collective behinds...
Vertrucio wrote: LOL, suit yourselves guys. Keeping the thread around is fine if you feel you need it.
I was just hoping some here would move on and do something like create the thing they've been looking for instead of waiting for a company that is highly unlikely to fulfill your desires.
Fine, you don't need to get over it, but using the anger to move forward is more helpful.
There is a serious lack of a good mecha game on the market, and a group of angry like minded people like in this thread could be motivated to beat RRT at its own game.
Funny you mention that, because there's a very active facebook group for RRT and they've been doing just that: creating missing figures. I'm at work and can't get on facebook to grab photos to repost, but there's a few guys that are creating STL files to 3D print your own Southern Cross and MOSPEADA figures and they've created fan rules for using them. So there ARE people that are doing with this game exactly what PB SHOULD be doing with it, despite PB's complete disregard for it.
Out of idle curiosity, what is the state of everyone's collection? Mine's been assembled, the RDF primed and a squad or two partly painted. It's all been put on the shelf, and I don't have anyone who is even interested in playing a game, so I haven't tried out the rules (though reading over them, the sound okay - just too many H-T-H combat options that mostly won't get used).
All the RRT figs I plan to build and paint are built and painted, although I have some extras if I ever want more duplicates. Then again, I never planned on using Palladium's rules unless they really knocked it out of the park. I got into Battletech because they made Robotech figures. I supported RRT to get Robotech figures for my Battletech (it's a vicious, vicious cycle) since it meant high quality Unseens that were EXACTLY Robotech figures instead of slightly different Robotech figures. RRT as a game has little appeal to me, the rules are far too simple for my taste in games and Macross was always my least favorite of the 3 sub series. Macross is still great, but my love has alwys been the destroids and the Zentraedi excluding the standard battlepods. The ones I care about (MPA, FPA, armored infantry, Gnerls etc) were all wave 2 and will never be done at this point, let alone Southern Cross/MOSPEADA. If RRT ever has Cyclones and Alphas and Invid I'll maybe be interested in playing actual RRT, but mostly I just picked up a select few boxes to use as BT unseens. I must say, the assembly doesn't bother me at all since I'm only building a few of them, they go together exactly like the old 1/200 scale macross models, but the idea of putting together a playable force from these figures is an instant NOPE-fest
Holy crap those are fantastic! I know they're not quite the same scale as normal BT figures, are they larger or smaller? I have a bunch of unopened boxes of Destriods that your models have given me the itch to assemble for BT figures. The newer BT plastics seem to have creeped up in size a bit compared to the IW metals anyhow so if the RTT Destriods are larger they may actually fit well. The BattleMaster that came with the new core set is positively *huge* compared to the the IW metals and honestly a lot of the BT plastics.
The destroids are nearly spot-on perfect, they're about 1-2mm shorter, but something you only notice when they're side by side with the actual BT figures and even then you have to be looking for it. The Valkyries are too tall but workable for Wasps and Stingers, but would work well if you could get the super valkyrie pieces for a Pheonix Hawk or an armored Veritech for a Crusader. All of the Zentraedi stuff is far too large of course, the officer's battlepod works OK for 10mm clickytech but is way out of scale for a regular Marauder. Here's my trusty old plastic Warhammer next to his replacement (sorry for the terrible lighting, just grabbed a quick pic on my cellphone to show off the scale).
For bases, the 1" plastic Hex bases from Reaper Minis are also spot on perfect for the old metal Ral Partha/IWM bases, ignore the name they're actually 30MM along the bottom flat-to-flat and the exact same height.
Jefffar wrote: In regards to the Squad/Squadron naming, I was flipping through Robotech Art 1 last night and it consistently referred to to Vermillion Squad.
Who's the publisher of that? PB or HG?
And regarding the naming, it points out the problem with the existing format regardless. Because there's no way that the Vermillion Squad wouldn't be a Squadron (large card), and not a Squad (small card).
Jefffar wrote: In regards to the Squad/Squadron naming, I was flipping through Robotech Art 1 last night and it consistently referred to to Vermillion Squad.
Who's the publisher of that? PB or HG?
And regarding the naming, it points out the problem with the existing format regardless. Because there's no way that the Vermillion Squad wouldn't be a Squadron (large card), and not a Squad (small card).
OK the book is publisher is the Donning Company/Publishers Norfolk Virginia copyright 1986 by Kay Reynolds and Ardith Carlton that what in Robotech Art1 Starblaze editions. Harmony Gold USA Story editor Carl Macek and Executive Producer Ahmed Agrama I hope this helps. oh by the way page 26 have the pic Rick ,Max and Ben fighters state Vermilion Squad.
That's cool. Macek being involved gives it a legitimacy that I wouldn't hold it to if it had been a purely PB sourced book.
And Squad is definitely the more appropriate term (over Squadron), if it's only a 3 man unit. Which as I said in the previous post, doesn't fit with the naming convention that they've chosen to use.
https://www.kickstarter.com/help/faq/kickstarter%20basics#Acco
What should creators do if they're having problems completing their project?
If the problems are severe enough that the creator can't fulfill their project, creators need to find a resolution. Steps should include offering refunds, detailing exactly how funds were used, and other actions to satisfy backers.
For more information, see Section 4 of our Terms of Use.
It is kind of funny that Palladium hired Scott to work the RTT project because the work load was to great, but not shown any
progress in the project in years, so proof nothing is being worked on....And now with the extra employee there still no
improvement almost a year later...
Sign me up.. I want a job were I can do nothing and still call it work..
It's times like these that really make me wonder what the hell passes for work at PB - especially that involve Kevin working overtime.
Sometimes, I'd like to be a fly on the wall to see what they're actually doing, but I'm afraid it turn out like Starlord said, "If we had a blacklight, it would look like a Jackson Pollock painting in here." (Decorated to Rifters, of course)
This is how I imagine the typical PB workday goes.
After stumbling into work they do a few order fulfillments and fill out paperwork. Mid- to late-morning Kevin invites everyone to watch a movie in the warehouse or some really funny youtube videos he has been bookmarking all morning.
After the videos, extended lunch.
After lunch, they sit around the conference room gaming.
Post-gaming includes cleaning up and perhaps some late afternoon order fulfillment.
If the gaming session or the movie was inspiring to Kevin, then he gets a brainstorm that means actual worktime. Wayne calls his family to say it wll be a late night.
I've backed over 150 projects in 7 years, and only 1 looks like it won't deliver and I was only in it for short money.
One (Myth Journeyman) looks bad, but delivered about half of what was promised - more or less.
So while researching what - if anything - Kickstarter would do about it...
Kickstarter wrote:
When a project is successfully funded, the creator must complete the project and fulfill each reward. Once a creator has done so, they’ve satisfied their obligation to their backers.
Throughout the process, creators owe their backers a high standard of effort, honest communication, and a dedication to bringing the project to life. At the same time, backers must understand that when they back a project, they’re helping to create something new — not ordering something that already exists. There may be changes or delays, and there’s a chance something could happen that prevents the creator from being able to finish the project as promised.
If a creator is unable to complete their project and fulfill rewards, they’ve failed to live up to the basic obligations of this agreement. To right this, they must make every reasonable effort to find another way of bringing the project to the best possible conclusion for backers. A creator in this position has only remedied the situation and met their obligations to backers if:
they post an update that explains what work has been done, how funds were used, and what prevents them from finishing the project as planned;
they work diligently and in good faith to bring the project to the best possible conclusion in a timeframe that’s communicated to backers;
they’re able to demonstrate that they’ve used funds appropriately and made every reasonable effort to complete the project as promised;
they’ve been honest, and have made no material misrepresentations in their communication to backers; and
they offer to return any remaining funds to backers who have not received their reward (in proportion to the amounts pledged), or else explain how those funds will be used to complete the project in some alternate form.
The creator is solely responsible for fulfilling the promises made in their project. If they’re unable to satisfy the terms of this agreement, they may be subject to legal action by backers.
The problem being, of course, is that Kickstarter will do NOTHING to actually enforce this part of their terms, and has, I'm sure, set it up that only backers themselves will be the ons bringing legal action - if any gets brought at all.
Because I don't think PB can do any ofthese things:
they post an update that explains what work has been done, how funds were used, and what prevents them from finishing the project as planned;
they work diligently and in good faith to bring the project to the best possible conclusion in a timeframe that’s communicated to backers;
they’re able to demonstrate that they’ve used funds appropriately and made every reasonable effort to complete the project as promised;
they’ve been honest, and have made no material misrepresentations in their communication to backers; and
they offer to return any remaining funds to backers who have not received their reward (in proportion to the amounts pledged), or else explain how those funds will be used to complete the project in some alternate form.
Alpharius wrote: I've backed over 150 projects in 7 years, and only 1 looks like it won't deliver and I was only in it for short money.
Are you the brother of guy who had the epiphany on Reddit?
While I've had KS deliver some very late, others only partially, at least I was able to get a refund from Soda Pop Miniatures. Robotech is the one KS that irritates me due to the outright dishonesty involved.
So you expect Unca Kev® to get something done? There's just not enough time! Let's examine.
There are 365 days a year.
There are 52 weeks per year and 2 weekend days per week which are time off. That leaves only 261 days available for work.
Unca Kev® needs to sleep and eat dinner and otherwise not live in the office, so that's 16 hours every day he can't be at work. That's 170 days! Only 91 work days are left available!
Unca Kev® needs his coffee and socialization time. That's 30 minutes a day, and that adds up to 23 days a year, leaving only 68 working days available.
You aren't going to begrudge him his lunch, are you? Heck, he needs an hour a day to eat and digest lunch and tell people that HE IS PALLADIUM BOOKS¢. That's 46 less days available for work. We're down to 22 days available.
Unca Kev® is such a hard worker, but he sometimes gets sick or run over by a car. He's MEGA®tough and usually comes in when he's mortally ill, but there are some days he just can't make it. He's such a hard worker he only spends about 2 sick days off a year. That leaves him only 20 days available to work.
Then there are the holidays. He needs to put up those Halloween™ decorations, and take them down. That's at least 5 days off a year. That leaves us at only 15 working days left.
That's only ONE DAY A YEAR to get everything done. It's just not enough time. If only there were somewhere to find the time, but there simply isn't. All of you are being unreasonable.
Jefffar wrote: You forgot, next year is a leap year, he'll be able to double his productivity.
Actually, the next one isn't until 2020.
So, we're still a ways off on that. Will probably still be waiting on quotes. But there'll be three more "This is the year for Robotech" announcements.
Merijeek wrote: I don't go over to the gak pile that is the Palladium Forums.
Is RRT still boiling over in there?
Did a quick check. There were about a half dozen or so posts over a couple of days about two weeks ago, trailing off on the 29th. One since, about a week ago by "wilycoyote". That's it.
That's why I'm thinking that from PB's perspective, not doing Wave 2 is the "smart" choice. As we know there appears to be little market for Wave 1 stuff, as evidenced by that pulled photo of the signing of Atlanteans showing craploads of stock remaining after 3 years at retail, and with very little apparent interest in the game itself, actually publishing Wave 2 is the "worst" choice for them.
Because as I see it, there are three options available.
- Declare a failure, and be required to issue refunds, in all likelihood leading to bankruptcy, or at least significant financial hardship.
- Publish Wave 2 to clear the obligation, easily costing several hundred thousand dollars, with not much chance of significant retail to offset.
- Keep kicking the can down the road, as they have done without consequence so far.
I'm pretty sure most backers would want Option 1 or 2, but from their side (morality issues aside), Option 3 is the only one that allows them to stay employed. Cause really, who on the staff looks like they're qualified to go elsewhere? Kevin's the only one who seems to actually do anything, and I don't think his ego could handle either the collapse of his company, or having to work for someone else. Cause that'd mean deadlines and accountability and working on one project at a time. Yeah, that doesn't sound like Kevin.
Doesn't help that they painted themselves into a corner with "Backers First". Cause it would have been easy to roll out a few items a year and release them to the public, to allow the profits there to help assist with the following product, but that time has passed. I think very few are under the illusion that the game can be revived now.
So we get the status quo. Kicking the can, passing the buck (you kinda know Scott is going to get bussed relatively soon*), doing their own thing, and kinda just hoping everything goes away.
* Wouldn't be surprised if it happened before CNY, would be surprised if it hasn't happened in the month after GenCon.
If the problem is a monetary one as others have alleged, releasing the kits one at a time would be a worse option as the shipping prices would explode.
It might be possible to fund 'wave 3' by manufacturing releasing the armoured and super valkyries (crusader / phoenix hawk LAM). Possible that the unseen fans would buy a fair few.
I suspect however that even this isn't doable for PB.
Jefffar wrote: If the problem is a monetary one as others have alleged, releasing the kits one at a time would be a worse option as the shipping prices would explode.
Only if they shipped each fulfillment to backers immediately, which is not what I'm suggesting. That's what I meant regarding the "backers first" problem. If they hadn't made such a big deal of that, they could have done what FFP did with Shadows of Brimstone, and release to retail over several years a partial list of items. And then when they're at the point where they can release the remainder, they began sending to backers. It caused some backlash to FFP, but because FFP didn't make that initial promise (nor double down on it several times), and because a lot of people had trust in them due to showing SOME progress in the intervening years, they were able to get away with it without a massive revolt. It doesn't hurt that they haven't seemed to have denied a refund to anyone who wanted one.
Whereas PB significantly "rules lawyered" the truth, if not outright lied, about "backers first" in Wave 1, and haven't been particularly open about things in well over 4 years.
But Meri is probably right. If PB could do it, they probably would. The only reasons not to, are either they don't have the money, or they don't think the retail sales would be sufficient to warrant the exercise. Neither is a good position for the future of the game, and the future of fulfillment of the Kickstarter obligations.
Yeah, it is all pretty straight in my head:
- Little or no market, very much in PB's eyes.
- So throwing good money after bad, in their eyes, obligated or not.
- Kick the can down the road forever, as stated: it worked this long.
- IF for some reason they decide to give it a go, it would need to have EVERYTHING done since shipping is just too much not to consider.
- I would say, having the original money (spent or not) and doing a best effort, it could not be done now.
It really is insanely blatant lies at this point.
It is as simple and as sraightforward as that, Kevin is simply not wiling to throw any of his money into RTt anymore to cover what now must be a shortfall- I am not alledging any financial fraud, but that over the last four years cost must have risen dramatically.
So, he is quite happy to sit there and tell Scott or whoever to post empty updates that he can use as proof of progress and so avoid the twin spectres of completion or failure/refunds.
what can we actually do? Virtually nothing as as it stands he has not broken any of his KS obligations - stretched yes, broken no.
It would seem our only recourse is to remain bitter towards PB and whenever possible try yo sabotage any of their future projects in the wider gaming world
If he can't fulfill AND if he can show where and how the money was spent - and it is legitimate - then he should just fess up and say 'sorry, no wave 2, no refunds and here's why'.
Dragging it out this long AND not just ending it makes people suspicious as hell, of course...
Alpharius wrote: If he can't fulfill AND if he can show where and how the money was spent - and it is legitimate - then he should just fess up and say 'sorry, no wave 2, no refunds and here's why'.
Dragging it out this long AND not just ending it makes people suspicious as hell, of course...
Spent money, or money he thinks should remain his until his "hands are tied" in 2021.
I suspect a wee bit of both (not enough money left to complete and not willing to give it up).
Alpharius wrote: If he can't fulfill AND if he can show where and how the money was spent - and it is legitimate - then he should just fess up and say 'sorry, no wave 2, no refunds and here's why'.
Dragging it out this long AND not just ending it makes people suspicious as hell, of course...
Can you find the likely flaw in your line of reasoning in your first sentence? Cause I can find the likely flaw in your line of reasoning in your first sentence.
The other reason is that there appears to be legally murky area, even if all the money is gone through legitimate expenses. While showing so clears PB of their Kickstarter requirements, it does not look like it clears PB of their debt to backers. While an earnest Creator might have people willing to forfeit their outstanding debt, the way PB have handled things, I can't see a significant number not doing so. And because this is tied to PB itself, rather than a seperate LLC, that means Kevin (or more accurately PB itself, but Kevin IS PB) is likely on the hook, and would have just openly admitted to failure.
Especially given that at some point before a significant portion of the money had gone, they would have had to have realize that they were financially incapable of completing the project. They know what Wave 1 cost, they ballpark knew what Wave 2 was going to cost (even without factoring inflationary costs). Meaning that as the core funds were being drained on "legitimate expenses", they were remaining adamant that they were still able to complete the project. Even if they didn't set out to defraud, it'd be easy as hell to argue that they were openly misrepresenting their financial standing, for months if not years. The refusal to issue refunds just exacerbates that. "No, you can't have your money back, we're spending it on expenses for the project despite knowing we can't complete the project."
That's why I think there's really no way out for PB, except kicking the can down the road indefinitely. And why the now hard and fast deadline of Q2 2021 is going to make things interesting.
Sorry, I was simply noting that PB has ZERO cash left, having spent it all on Wave 1 Retail production, in the hope of driving extra profits. Product which is now sitting unsold in their warehouse.
I'm just playing along with Talizvar's thought - that maybe there's some money left - but not enough to make Wave 2.
Yes, much of it is probably sitting there, stuck in over-bought Wave 1 stuff.
But PB doesn't want to give up that remaining cash - for some reason - and doesn't want to admit failure - and is hoping and praying for that miracle quote that will allow Wave 2 to happen...
The idea that Palladium didn't bet the house suggests a level of management and professionalism that is simply not consistent with anything they have ever done.
n815e wrote: If they do have any cash left, I'm thinking that they stay in business from the interest earned on it and don't want to part ways with it.
if they can stay in business off interest earned on what is left from the KS, i'd like to know where they have the money as being generous and assuming they have say 500k left, 10% would only be 50k which theoretically wouldn't even be enough for payroll as that covers 1 or 2 people.
I wonder how much of the money's been spent on legal advice. Because I'm pretty sure Kev wouldn't have any problem spending the KS money on legal advice relating to the Kickstarter itself.
This is a company that literally doesn’t make enough money to keep its lights on, where selling 150 packs of playing cards is considered a major product success and employees are rumored to go without pay for periods out of the year.
This is a company that has taken to begging its customers for donations to stay open.
In that context, $50k a year must be really hard to let go of.
John Prins wrote: I wonder how much of the money's been spent on legal advice. Because I'm pretty sure Kev wouldn't have any problem spending the KS money on legal advice relating to the Kickstarter itself.
Kevin's "legal advice" is nothing more than a night law class at a community college that he audited. He nor his company make enough money to keep a lawyer on retainer. Like everything else, he's winging it - badly.
Who needs lawyers? The Kickstarter rules look like they give backers protection but when you actually read them they are heavily slanted towards the producers who simply have to show a tiniest amount of working on a project to keep holding to funds for basically as long as they like.
The crappy part is that even Scott's update on the resin bases and the fact they are now reaching out to the sculptor again is basically evidence of workig on the project if not actual progress.
Kevin knows he cannot afford wave 2 and he also knows he cannot pay the backers any refunds, so short of a miracle jump in retail sales of the wave one stock, he has decided to sit tight, sell the odd rpg book and basically tell us backers to STFU you are getting nothing else from me
Well it looks like their 50 % off sale of all stuff Robotech kind of suck me in .Cheap is the word I 'll say. I couldn't resist the sale. All the Con minis are $11.00 but the Breetai $8.95 I think I'am not sure on that one. The their Rpg books are cheap as well. Cheaper then e-bay and Mini Market as well. Oh well I 'am sucker for cheap sales even when I hate PB. I wonder if they are to blow out all of their Con minis in this sale? You know I think if PB is smart which they are not. They keep this sale going to the end of the year. The core set is cheapest seen compare everywhere I look online $49.99 or $49.95. Well we shall see what happen. Later
DEZOAT wrote: Well it looks like their 50 % off sale of all stuff Robotech kind of suck me in .Cheap is the word I 'll say. I couldn't resist the sale. All the Con minis are $11.00 but the Breetai $8.95 I think I'am not sure on that one. The their Rpg books are cheap as well. Cheaper then e-bay and Mini Market as well. Oh well I 'am sucker for cheap sales even when I hate PB. I wonder if they are to blow out all of their Con minis in this sale? You know I think if PB is smart which they are not. They keep this sale going to the end of the year. The core set is cheapest seen compare everywhere I look online $49.99 or $49.95. Well we shall see what happen. Later
What did you end up with, and how exorbitant was shipping? Cause I checked it out a couple years back, and they were significantly (like +50%) above what USPS was offering.
DEZOAT wrote: Well it looks like their 50 % off sale of all stuff Robotech kind of suck me in .Cheap is the word I 'll say. I couldn't resist the sale. All the Con minis are $11.00 but the Breetai $8.95 I think I'am not sure on that one. The their Rpg books are cheap as well. Cheaper then e-bay and Mini Market as well. Oh well I 'am sucker for cheap sales even when I hate PB. I wonder if they are to blow out all of their Con minis in this sale? You know I think if PB is smart which they are not. They keep this sale going to the end of the year. The core set is cheapest seen compare everywhere I look online $49.99 or $49.95. Well we shall see what happen. Later
What did you end up with, and how exorbitant was shipping? Cause I checked it out a couple years back, and they were significantly (like +50%) above what USPS was offering.
Well I couldn't help myself Morgan but the shipping for me was 13.65 with UPS which funny because I'm only about 1 1/2 hour drive PB Warehouse from my house. I order 4 gerwalk 3 MPA 2 Max and some of the books to complete the collection what hell. I need some help guys.Oh well. P.S. what bad is pay less then paid in 2015 when brought 2 of each of the Con minis , Oh the Breetai mini is $11.00 like the rest of the Con minis.
Morgan Vening wrote: What did you end up with, and how exorbitant was shipping? Cause I checked it out a couple years back, and they were significantly (like +50%) above what USPS was offering.
Well I couldn't help myself Morgan but the shipping for me was 13.65 with UPS which funny because I'm only about 1 1/2 hour drive PB Warehouse from my house. I order 4 gerwalk 3 MPA 2 Max and some of the books to complete the collection what hell. I need some help guys.Oh well. P.S. what bad is pay less then paid in 2015 when brought 2 of each of the Con minis , Oh the Breetai mini is $11.00 like the rest of the Con minis.
That shipping isn't that ridiculous. Though being an American shipment, it seems less ridiculous.
Wait, what? The Consclusives were at half price too? That's never happened before. Every previous sale has excluded them from discount. And given these don't appear to be restockable, that seems to be a desperate move. The FPA has been "out of print" since at LEAST the opening to everybody, November last year, if not earlier. And with the apparent souring of relations with GHQ, I can't see that changing.
Ironically, it looks like it was almost MSRP for you to have bought your MPA formation as metal, rather than "wait" for the plastics.An expected $32.95MSRP vs the $33 you paid. You overpaid a nickel, to get it "early".
Yes, I'm being facetious by suggesting that MPA will ever be produced in plastic. Cause that's as likely to happen as PB not raising MSRP for *reasons* if the plastics ever were produced. Because nothing would kill a relaunch faster than by jacking up prices. It'd be the most stupid thing PB could do to sabotage themselves. Therefore, it's their most likely cause of action.
I don't see an obvious timestamp on Kickstarter (datestamp, yes, but not an exact time), nor does it seem to exist on the comments themselves (I went back and checked to see if the initial comments had one either).
If that info is available on the platform, it doesn't seem to be shown to users easily by default.
If anyone gets emailed editions, that'd probably be a bit more accurate, but off the cuff I'd say 'late afternoon or into the evening, EST'. If it lands today, I'd expect it in the next 6 hours or less.
Not that it'll contain anything of value, but the question was 'when', and that's all that is coming to me at the moment.
To follow up on Forar's post, the Update following his personal emergency issue was on Wednesday, ~6:30pm, his last one was Tuesday, ~10:15pm. Prior to that, his scheduled Updates have been (from 1st through 8th, +/- 15m) 9pm, 1:30pm, 6:15pm, 5pm, 9:15pm, 3:30pm, 5pm, and 4pm, all Tuesdays.
So all in all, a half have been during business hours, and half have been early to late evening.
I still get the emails (and just looked at the timestamps), because I'm technically still a backer.
And yeah, I'm not expecting anything of value either.
EDIT: All times and dates above are US EDT, the timezone PB is located in. So adjust accordingly. Of course, if Scott didn't relocate (and there's no evidence he did), he's posting an hour earlier, local time.
Judicious use of paraphrasing below, but here's a summary...
"There's been a problem with emails regarding feedback for the Force Orgs! We fixed it!"
Note, there's no numbers there. I'd be curious how many legitimate emails they received, given as I've said in an earlier post, there's almost no actual changes to discuss. And he's already aware it looks incomplete.
"SDF bases are almost done! Should have something to show next Update!"
Goes out of his way to point out that feedback changed things, and he recieved images but chose not to show them because they need to be fixed more. Because with PB, it's perfect, or it's not good enough. Showing what the changes were on the new ones, and what the things that need changing are, would show a sense of actual work. As it stands, it could easily be interpreted that NOTHING has been done, and they've just kicked the can two more weeks.
"Last week's 'one weekend only' sale has been extended another weekend!"
Yeah, ~100 sales (of varying sizes) at closeout prices is simply NOT a bragging point. Hey, you know what PB were able to get in a month, back in May, 2013? 5000+ Customers averaging ~$250 apiece. Now THAT was something to crow about. And this kind of gak, extending sales due to "mass outpouring of sentiment" started with their use of CGB's, completely undercuts any reason to buy at MSRP. because you know there's going to be extended heavy discounts soon.
I would think working on the Monster Miniature would make them more money.. Seemed like everyone I know
that back RTT ordered one.. and if the did a decent job on it.. I think others seeing it would buy it.
But they are working on bases.. And how many versions is there?? The work being done could be knocked
out in less than an hour from a intermediate experienced artist..
I don't know why this shouldn't surprise us, Christmas update will come out saying will be we better
hurry and buy the palladium mystery gift box before the sale ends...
What happens when Kevin's lawyer figures out a way of working around the limit of restitution.
Then he walks away free... Not many game stores carry his stuff now... fear of the same thing with them
will not help future sales.
My Eleventh Update - New Feedback Email and Bases Sent for Corrections
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Hi all, Scott here.
Force Org Charts Feedback and Change of Email Address
I became aware a few days ago that only some of the e-mails being sent to the feedback@ e-mail address were getting through. Unfortunately it appears that several (we don't know the exact number) never made it to my account. As part of the fix for this problem, we have set up a new e-mail account - rrt-rules[at]palladiumbooks[dot]com - and have tested it many times over the past couple days to make sure everything gets through (it does).
How do I find out if my e-mail got through? There is a simple way to know if your e-mail got through to me or not - I have sent a thank you reply to every one that I have received. If you did not get an e-mail back from me thanking you for your feed back, please check your spam filter first to make sure it didn't get caught there. If not, then please send it again. My apologies for the trouble.
And again, thank you to everyone who has sent in their thoughts regarding the Force Organization Charts. Please feel free to send in more thoughts and ideas as you can.
SDF-1 Bases
I received screenshots of the new SDF-1 bases yesterday, but not all of the changes that I'd asked for (which were based on your feedback) had been made. I have spoken with the artist and he assures me that he will have the corrections done by the time of the next update.
Final Thoughts
A big thank you to everyone who ordered RRT-related items (over 100 sales ranging from dice packs to full box sets) through the special sale of Robotech® (all RRT and Robotech® RPG items 50% off) on our website this last weekend. Because the sale was such a success, and many people wanted it to continue, it will be offered again this weekend.
Speaking of thanks, I want to give my warmest wishes to every one of you who will be celebrating Thanksgiving next week. May you have a great and safe holiday filled with love and gratitude.
I'll be back again in two weeks, November 28th.
Have they decided to not even pretend to work on Wave 2 anymore?
Or...if Wave 2 isn't mentioned, everyone will...forget that it is still owed?
Genoside07 wrote: I would think working on the Monster Miniature would make them more money.. Seemed like everyone I know
that back RTT ordered one.. and if the did a decent job on it.. I think others seeing it would buy it.
I'm not sure this one is true, from a financial perspective. Sure, a lot of people got one, but I don't think the average was there. There were ~6000 base boxes pledged for. I ordered 8, but only one Monster. I believe Forar ordered 8, but only 3 Monsters. And there would be a fair amount of backers who got just the minimum. So let's say it's 4000 ordered. At $40 each, that's $160K. Take off KS fees, and that's down to $144K.
Given the size of the Monster, it's going to be at LEAST 3, if not 4 sprues. IIRC, a mold came in at about $15-$20K. PB said prices increased significantly. So that's probably putting it in the $80-$100K range. Add another $10K for all the other auxilliary expenses (design, production run, boxes, freight), and you're looking at a reasonable margin on the plus side there. But you need to account for the duality of pricing. Even if I'm right, and Monsters accounted for 10% of the funding, the way in which the Kickstarter ran, with regards the stretch goals, it doesn't account for 10% of the expenses. For example, let's look at when the Monster was released. It unlocked at $325K. From an arbitrary perspective, you add $160K to that, it means everything unlocked that was added to the Battlecry has to come out of that funding. It means that any paid purchase unlocked that didn't get several thousand backers adding to their pledge, means it has to be subsidised by the money added to Monsters.
So, at best, they break even because of Kickstarter backers, and IMO probably make a loss. in the $10-$50K range. So they need to make that back at retail. Assuming they make $40 on each retail at $60MSRP, that's 250-1250 needed to break even. Their hugely successful weekend sale netted them 100 customers. There will be a glut on the market if backers get theirs (and a fething apocalypse on the internet if they don't). Don't forget to factor in shipping costs for at least all US backers as an expense. How many people will buy an overengineered centrepiece model for a game that's all but dead, that haven't already bought one as a backer, or don't purchase from a backer?
At BEST, I can't see even the top line models (Monster, FPA, MPA, SValk, AValk) making much more than a token profit after all expenses, even including retail sales. And the stuff that isn't likely to have been invested in as heavily, that they'd still owe? Specifically Ghosts, Lancers, Gnerls, ZInf? Forgeddabowdit.
PB are in a world of gak even if they didn't misuse/misspend Kickstarter funds. More so if they did. Doing this piecemeal dooms completion to failure. And from PB's perspective, staving off failure is all they have left.
Have they decided to not even pretend to work on Wave 2 anymore?
Or...if Wave 2 isn't mentioned, everyone will...forget that it is still owed?
To quote the little latin girl in the taco commercial, "Why not both?"
I checked back, there were renders 7 weeks ago, but those were for resins, so are a domestic, not international concern. It was 9 weeks ago that he last mentioned Wave 2 and quotes. So that's been 4 consecutive "official Tuesday" Updates that haven't mentioned it at all.
Here's what was said.
The Meetings with the Manufacturers at Gen Con
Because people asked - Gen Con went very well for Palladium on a number of fronts. With regard to RRT Wave 2, we spoke with representatives of several manufacturers and reviewed samples of their work. We are now awaiting refined quotes as we were able to discuss what we want to accomplish with Wave Two. That included confirming with them the level of detail that we are seeking to preserve while reducing part counts.
All in all, the meetings went very well and hopefully we will be making a selection on a manufacturer to move forward with very soon.
So I guess Scott's definition of "soon" and Kevin's definition of "soon" are compatible.
n815e wrote: These updates read like Scott has checked out.
Yup. Ever since his absence, there's a distinct lack of giving a crap. I mean, it's not like there's been a significant drop in terms of actual news, but the effort to disguise that fact seems to be getting less and less.
Hope he cashed in his Palladium Bucks. Because it looks like he was hired to deflect blame, and add a veneer of credibility. He's still fulfilling the first, but he's completely lost the latter.
I mean, yes, he was ostensibly hired to get RRT (and PB) back on track, but that was obviously bs. Because there was no way Kevin was going to give up control like that. Not for RRT, and especially not for PB. I'd call Kevin a control freak, but that gives more credit than deserved. There's nothing really controlled about Kevin's freak. It's more like a drunk falling down a flight of stairs, over and over again. Some people root for him to finally make it, some people cheer as he falls, and some people just want to see him stop.
Morgan Vening wrote: Given the size of the Monster, it's going to be at LEAST 3, if not 4 sprues. IIRC, a mold came in at about $15-$20K. PB said prices increased significantly. So that's probably putting it in the $80-$100K range. Add another $10K for all the other auxilliary expenses (design, production run, boxes, freight), and you're looking at a reasonable margin on the plus side there.
What about metal or resin cast from a 3D print? Since the numbers are small (maybe one monster for, say, every 50 other models at most?) that's probably a much more economical way of doing it, right?
Of course the usual disclaimers apply: I expect nothing from PB, I'm just discussing the technicalities out of curiosity etc.
Morgan Vening wrote: Given the size of the Monster, it's going to be at LEAST 3, if not 4 sprues. IIRC, a mold came in at about $15-$20K. PB said prices increased significantly.
Actually, nowadays you can get sprue molds made for as little as 3-5k, depending on size.
n815e wrote: These updates read like Scott has checked out.
Yup. Ever since his absence, there's a distinct lack of giving a crap. I mean, it's not like there's been a significant drop in terms of actual news, but the effort to disguise that fact seems to be getting less and less.
Hope he cashed in his Palladium Bucks. Because it looks like he was hired to deflect blame, and add a veneer of credibility. He's still fulfilling the first, but he's completely lost the latter.
Exactly!
If nothing else, just look at the 'quality' and/or just actual length of his updates as we've gone from 1 to 11 - he certainly hasn't turned it up to 11 here!
I'm wondering if its worth sending another letter to the Michigan AG. It's been two years since the last one, with no movement on this KS at all.
Anyone want to help me word it? I would like it sound reasonable and factual, and not be an emotional rant.
Here's the text of the old letter:
Spoiler:
Dear Sirs
I am writing to you in the hope that you take action against Palladium Books.
Palladium Books, Inc.
39074 Webb Court
Westland, MI 48185 (Wayne County)
Phone: 734-721-2900
Palladium Books successfully completed their Robotech RPG Tactics Kickstarter on May 20, 2013. This kickstarter was aimed to produce a tabletop wargame with miniature figures based on a popular sci-fi cartoon series from the 80's known as "Robotech". The kickstarter raised $1,442,312 among 5,342 international backers. Additional funding was collected via the Kickstarter's "backerkit", which allowed backers to add additional copies or add-on purchases to their "rewards". There is, unfortunately, no public information on the amount of additional funds collected with the "backerkit".
At the time of completion, the original estimated shipping date was December of 2013. As of Dec 31, neither on their weekly update or the kickstarter site was ANY mention made that the shipping would be delayed. On January 30, 2014 - a month after the initial, original shipping date was missed - Palladium Books announced in both a weekly update and on the Kickstarter site that the items would be split into two waves, with a shipping date of May/June 2014. In the April 10, 2014 weekly update, Robotech Wave One was announced with an expected delivery date of Spring 2014. In their April 25, 2014 weekly update, Robotech Wave One was revised with an expected delivery date of Summer 2014. Robotech Wave One went "into manufacturing" on June 12, 2014 according to their weekly update, with an estimated delivery date still Summer 2014. As of the Palladium website weekly update on June 26, the estimated delivery date was September, 2014. On July 17, 2014 as noted in the weekly update, the first of at least 11 containers was loaded to depart China, with an estimated arrival date of August 8, 2014. The weekly update was also changed to reflect a Fall 2014 estimated release date. US shipping for Wave One was declared in the weekly update to began on August 28, 2014. However, due to a number of transport issues, the majority of shipping did not actually begin until October 2, 2014 (announced in the weekly update and on the Kickstarter website). Europe was shipped their Wave One products by sea on or around Jan 21, 2015 as noted in a Kickstarter website update. Australia was shipped their Wave One products by sea around Feb 8, 2015 as again noted in a Kickstarter website update. "Rest of the World" was shipped their Wave One products (by sea?) on May 13, 2015 (again, via Kickstarter Website update).
Since the shipping of Wave One items began, backers have been asking for information on the status of the Wave Two items. This information has been frustatingly sparse, with the last tangible update occuring on Feb 28, 2015. This update consisted of "incomplete" 3D renders of two of the twenty-eight miniature figures for Wave two. Finally, in a two-part Kickstarter update on June 6, 2015 we were given a tenative release date for Wave Two of "The end of 2015". Since that time, all information about Robotech Tactics has been for items NOT a part of the "rewards" and items purchased in the original Kickstarter, with continual promises of a forthcoming Wave Two update.
Kevin Siembieda has posted detail information in reflection about the Kickstarter from its inception to the delivery of Wave One in a two-part update on the Kickstarter site on June 6, 2015.
While the ever-shifting release dates are signs of bad customer service and not criminal actions, Palladium books has increasingly shown dwindling ability to produce products based on its primary business - roleplaying books. Based on the information available to me and other backers at this time, we do not believe that Palladium Books has the resources - or willpower - to complete Robotech RPG Tactics Wave Two. In his June 6, 2015 update Kevin mentions serveral costs. The initial outlay for the Kickstarter was $40,000. International shipping is mentioned to have cost $150,000 (no mention of domestic shipping). There is a mention in the same update that "make(ing) the game and expansion packs" would be "between $550,000 and $900,000". Based on these rough numbers, it is my beleif that the funds for Wave One have been depleted and Palladium lacks the remaining funds - or ability to secure funding to cover the cost of Wave Two.
Further, based on their inability to produce other products from their own line, it is my belief the company is incapable of admitting they cannot produce Wave Two.
As an example of the latter, I direct you to their projected book release schedule that was listed in their January 11, 2015 weekly update. The update listed the following books for release in 2015:
Robotech® RPG Tactics™ Advanced Rule Book
Splicers® Sourcebooks – several
Beyond the Supernatural™ – Tomes Grotesque™ Volume One
Beyond the Supernatural™ – Beyond Arcanum™
Palladium Fantasy® Land of the Damned 3: The Citadel (probably 2016)
Palladium Fantasy® Land of the South Winds
Heroes Unlimited™ sourcebooks
Dead Reign® sourcebooks
Rifts® Secrets of the Atlanteans™
Rifts® Heroes of Humanity™
Rifts® The Disavowed™
Rifts® Antarctica
Rifts® Sovietski
Rifts® New Navy™
Rifts® Delta Blues™
Rifts® Dark Woods™
Rifts® Voodoo
Of the books listed, I can only find that Palladium Fantasy RPG: Bizantium and the Northern Islands has been released so far. The only other book that they have released this year that I can discern is the Robotech Expeditionary Force (formerly UEEF Marines) book, which was released this month. This latter book was originally slated for release on April 10, 2014 with numerous dates shifts - many of which had emphasised promised hard release dates.
We urge you to act in the interests of the 5,342 backers to force the hand of Palladium to either produce information to its backers on the current state of all Wave Two items and the feasibility of producing Robotech RPG Tactics with a general statement of the company having the finacial resources to produce said wave or reasonable proof of intent to secure funds to pay for said Wave Two. We urge you, that should Palladium refuse to provide such information to pursue forcing the company to refund the monetary value of the unproduced items to the backers.
Just some suggestions. I'd remove any ambiguity. Example, The amount raised during the backerkit is irrelevant for your argument, so I'd drop it (even though Wayne said it was about what they paid in Kickstarter fees). Just keep with the hard facts, that $1.44M was raised.
In the breakdown of the timeline, strip it down to it's simplest form, using bullet points. I'd also add in at the start the original timeframe (7 months), and each step the time in excess (10 months past the original estimate, for the bulk shipping of Wave 1). A lot of dates makes things get lost, and the delay (now 3 years, 11 months past the original estimate) brings it into relief.
Obviously, you would want to expand the timeline of the events that have occured since you wrote it, with 2016 and 2017 also being "the year of Robotech".
I'd also cut out all the information on PB's prior business practice. Maybe a single concise statement mentioning it, and an offer to provide more detail if requested. Because it's a completely different issue, as late releases of books aren't (for the most part) paid in advance, and that's the key here.
I'd also expand on their refund policy. That's a key issue here, and when paired with their refusal to give any kind of estimate as to the time, is where, if held to the standards of wire fraud, they'd be found guilty. You want to make sure that it looks close enough to an actual crime, that the AG can draw parallels. Happy to provide a copy of a refund refusal if you don't already have one. Though I wouldn't put it in verbatim. Like the para above, a short statement that you can provide an example if requested, is sufficient.
You want to provide information, but anything not 100% pertinent, you want to keep as "I can expand on this if you want". It needs to be as direct and to the point as you can make it.
I am writing to you in the hope that you take action against Palladium Books, which I believe fraudulently misused funds.
Palladium Books, Inc.
39074 Webb Court
Westland, MI 48185 (Wayne County)
Phone: 734-721-2900
Palladium Books successfully completed their Robotech RPG Tactics Kickstarter on May 20, 2013. This kickstarter was aimed to produce a tabletop wargame with miniature figures based on a popular sci-fi cartoon series from the 80's known as "Robotech". The kickstarter raised $1,442,312 among 5,342 international backers.
At the time of completion, the original estimated shipping date was December of 2013. As of 11-15-2017, all 5,342 (is this true???) have not received their entire order. On January 30, 2014 - a month after the initial, original shipping date was missed - Palladium Books announced to the kickstarter backers that the items would be split into two waves, with a shipping date of May/June 2014. However, due to a number of issues, the majority of shipping of wave 1 did not actually begin until October 2, 2014. Europe was shipped their Wave One products by sea on or around Jan 21, 2015. Australia was shipped their Wave One products by sea around "Rest of the World" was shipped their Wave One products on May 13, 2015 .
Since the shipping of Wave One items began, backers have been asking for information on the status of the Wave Two items. On June 6, 2015 the backers were given a tenative release date for Wave Two of "The end of 2015". Since that time, all information about Robotech Tactics has been for items NOT a part of the "rewards" and items purchased in the original Kickstarter, with continual promises of a forthcoming Wave Two update.
It is my belief that the funds for Wave One have been depleted and Palladium lacks the remaining funds - or ability to secure funding to cover the cost of Wave Two. Given this it is my belief the company is incapable of admitting they cannot produce Wave Two. And that the company has no intentions of completing their obligations in this transaction.
We urge you to act in the interests of the 5,342 backers to force the hand of Palladium to either produce information to its backers on the current state of all Wave Two items and the feasibility of producing Robotech RPG Tactics with a general statement of the company having the financial resources to produce said wave or reasonable proof of intent to secure funds to pay for said Wave Two. We urge you, that should Palladium refuse to provide such information to pursue forcing the company to refund the monetary value of the unproduced items to the backers. Finally, we believe that Paladiuim has criminally misused the funds.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Aside from the original letter having spelling errors...
Only put actual true facts in the letter. You don't want the state's attorney to start looking into it and give them an easy out.
The OG letter didn't say why a SG would care. It needs to be criminal or maybe criminal for them to really care.
Sadly, there was likely nothing criminal the Kev did. He spent all of the KS $$$ on other PB stuff (likely) and he can't afford to do it now / doesn't want to throw $$$ at a game that is clearly dead.
Let's say magically we get wave 2 tomorrow. What good is it? It isn't like there is a big player base...
Morgan Vening wrote: Given the size of the Monster, it's going to be at LEAST 3, if not 4 sprues. IIRC, a mold came in at about $15-$20K. PB said prices increased significantly.
Hold on, we're not talking a 40k Knight Titan (3 sprues, cut in-house; 4 if you count the Warden sprue).
PB's problem with the prices is that they're not free. Tooling costs are probably steady, given the expansion of minis gaming today since the time that RRT was originally tooled. IOW, I think PB is lying. As usual. ___
JohnHwangDD wrote: Consider that a RRT Monster model would only be about the size of a 40k Dreadnought. As such, it should comfortably fit on a single 8"x10" sprue. I'd estimate tool cost at $10-15k.
You're assuming competent design and manufacture, and PB learning from their mistakes in a meaningful way. I think that's a bad bet.
You could have fit twice as many figures on most of the existing sprues, with some proper engineering.
Hell, a proper design on the Battlepod and Valks could have cut the cost of a sprue entirely, by making the bits for Arty Pods, and the VEF/1D on a single snapapart sprue. Hell, there's a lot of things that could have worked if PB didn't dick around.
I fully expect the Monster, if it ever appears, will be overengineered to hell. "It's the only way it can be done."
I would be willing to state the obvious here: I am sure William Schuette will have so few cares to give about this issue than I do about Kevin's social life.
Talizvar wrote: I would be willing to state the obvious here: I am sure William Schuette will have so few cares to give about this issue than I do about Kevin's social life.
That was my thought too. I don't know the man's individual politics, but a Republican AG going after a local "small business" that's been around for three decades, to service the needs of out-of-state'rs and foreigners, seems a hard ask. Because small businesses are the backbone of the US economy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmp4Urk7mn4&feature=youtu.be&t=23
Especially given his gubernatorial bid, coming down on a small business struggling to stay afloat, would be a distraction he doesn't want. Even a very consumer friendly Democratic AG would be hesitant unless there were several Michigan residents willing to be the standard bearers.
Heh, I seem to recall mentioning that the PB forums are blocked here at work? The work web filter considers them a risky place to visit (can't recall the exact wording, and repeatedly visiting it intentionally seems to be a good way to garner ire from IT), but apparently that apple didn't fall far from the tree with NMI;
It lacks fun to talk law with non-lawyers over the 'net.
Yes, the AG couldn't possibly care less. The state's attorney office is the target for this.
Like I said before if you don't know the difference between a circuit court and a district court...
We need to find the the state attorney office for the county court of what ever county PB is in. Send them the letter and follow up with a call a couple days after they get the letter.
This is the district court aka the people's court. We'd get laughed at if we tried to go circuit.
Heh, I seem to recall mentioning that the PB forums are blocked here at work? The work web filter considers them a risky place to visit (can't recall the exact wording, and repeatedly visiting it intentionally seems to be a good way to garner ire from IT), but apparently that apple didn't fall far from the tree with NMI;
Lol, your post at first glance makes it look like your old cookie sig got hacked by Russians and we should expect baked good exposés from Wikileaks soon.
I'd like to think that my newfound maturity is the reason I didn't put "Rifts Butt Plugs (now available in Black, Pink, and Glitter Boy!)". But I think it's more fatigue.
Was watching videos on YouTube, Rob Oren an ex Dice tower guy has a few videos he made recently that mentions RTT...
Funny thing is he wants to get an interview with Pallidium games... I think they would never do that because that would show
how screwed up they are..But best of luck to him...
Rob's Top 5 Most Anticipated Games That Disappointed - RTT #1 on the list
Top 5 Games That Make Me NEVER Want to Fund a Kickstarter - RTT # 2 on the list..
For those who don't care about the rest of the lists;
Video #1: ~8:40 is where RRT starts.
Video #2: ~5:50 for RRT.
Video two is the funnier of them, as it involves a section I'm going to call "Rob Oren struggles with numbers", and he keeps calling PB what distinctly sounds like "Paladin".
He does vow to continue to try to contact them for more information, though the video is nearly a month old so I guess he's having about as much luck getting info/an interview out of them as Scott is having with the bases (which is to say; none).
Shocker. Someone who has made videos critical of RRT is having trouble getting PB on record about RRT. Who would've seen that coming /sarcasm.
Edit: unless he has. At a glance he puts out a sizable number of videos per week. A lot of them aren't particularly long, but I'm not skimming for the next couple of hours just to see if he had any success.
Forar wrote: Though the sentiment is somewhat undercut by having an X-Wing ship on top of it.
I haven't kept up on the meta, maybe the box is damaged or that ship just sucks, but it struck me as funny all the same.
Or the regular price it's $30 . Plus it's a Wave 5 release and FFG is now on Wave 12, so probably most people who wanted one already do.
The biggest three "deals" seem to be the three below it: RRT, Undercity and the stormcasts box.
Fairview is a great story with great staff. I live about 2.5 hours away but when I come that direction to hang with a buddy from college my dark angels come out. I've never seen robotech played there though.
Genoside07 wrote: Forbidden stars is also a 40k not so great board game that is OOP and I doubt will ever be produced again since FFG lost the GW licence;
Robotech tactics per Palladium games is HOT HOT HOT and every shop wants to carry it... Running tournaments at Gen Con to packed audiences.
I certainly don't recall seeing RTT exactly flying off the shelf at Palladium's booth at Gencon
As for every game on the $20 table, the Star Wars ship.. he still had a few on sale at normal retail and I figure he was just trimming stock.
Robotech Tactics needs to be available on store shelves for new players. But most game store have either already cleared it out or currently
clearing it out for other stock. People that have interest will look up information on it and find the Kickstarter is Four years late with no end in site.
So, clearly no one is asking for RTT at game stores now and this is why Palladium books has a giant pile of them in their warehouse. Never understanding why
product isn't moving... Blame the internet I guess..
Automatically Appended Next Post: Nimmy's black vault site has been down for a while now as he doesnt have the money to keep it open. God forbid palladium offer to help in some way. At this point Im amazed they even bother with the forums.
Genoside07 wrote: Forbidden stars is also a 40k not so great board game that is OOP and I doubt will ever be produced again since FFG lost the GW licence;
Robotech tactics per Palladium games is HOT HOT HOT and every shop wants to carry it... Running tournaments at Gen Con to packed audiences.
Yet local game stores are clearing it out same as any other products that is not selling..
At Fantasy Books, That copy of RTT that was $20 has sat across from the half off RPG Shelf since it came out. I don't think one copy has sold. The week it came out, one of the workers openly said they didn't like the models. I don't know if it sold for $20, But I'll likely see it sitting on that shelf with less dust next time I'm there.
I came to post this link and then I sat back and laughed and laughed.
HG doesn't even OWN copyrights to the stuff they claimed to and never has owned them because the "guy" they got the copyrights from never owned them in the first place....
L O fething L
[Edit] So if Unca Kevvy got the rights from HG, then when do we sue him for IP infringement? How does this apply to KS, since he's selling, what are basically, counterfeit copies he holds no right to produce?
The guy running that blog has some pretty heavy battletech blinders on as he states he's never heard of Big West, yet their name is plastered on pretty much everything Robotech related as well as most older Japanese cartoons which were done by Studio Nue/Tatsunoko, Mobile Suit Gundam, Votoms, Crusher Joe, Captain Harlock etc. Big West also had their name stamped on pretty much every model kit that came out of Japan during the 80's and 90's and their brand is still active on a ton of model kits.
While some of his point may be relevant he's certainly not very well in tune with the companies that are involved.
Also speaking of Good Ol' Kev, during the original FASA/HG trial he served as an "expert witness" with testimony supporting HG's claims so he had a minor hand in all of the BS that has haunted Battlketech for years, it's nice to see his grasp on Robotech starting to slip. It must burn his chaps to see the heights that FASA and Microsoft have managed to reach by publishing a very successful line of video games and even some animated programs meanwhile Palladium is just a pathetic footnote as a company instead of a gaming giant. They also tried to squash the guys that created MTG and grew into Wizards, so it seems everything they target seems to go on and find massive success, while Palladium lingers in self inflicted mediocrity that withers due to Kevin's lack of vision.
I truly hope that that their motion to dismiss is granted. Regardless of how it effects HG and Palladium having the whole Battletech mess put to bed would be nice and I would *love* for all of the old mechs to return. The Archer and Rifleman need to have their classic looks back. I was always wondering what PGI was doing when they released versions of all of the classics that looked a hell of a lot like the originals but I guess they came ready to fight over it.
Genoside07 wrote: So, clearly no one is asking for RTT at game stores now and this is why Palladium books has a giant pile of them in their warehouse. Never understanding why
product isn't moving... Blame the internet I guess..
Genoside - I am going to disagree with this statement in part. Initially, from what I saw reading what was out there was hopeful optimism about the potential for this game under Ninja Division auspices. If you have been following the gakfest that is the RRT updates, and I am presuming you have, then you are well aware that the warning signs posted for the world to see came in short order. This domino effect compounded the already damaged reputation that Palladium has amongst the community as a whole. This damage existed before the internet, and will exist well after PB closes its doors. Additionally, and someone please fact check me on this, Palladium has gone to a direct sales model. Were a retailer to carry their product they do not go to a third party distrubitor. If PB has terms and conditions that make carrying the product either too expensive or too impractical to carry, then a retailer will likely special order it upon a customers request (if any) or not carry the product at all.
Word of mouth still carries a lot of weight in the local and national communities. I would bet good Robotech Bucks that if you go anywhere where their is a healthy gaming scene, you will find someone that has heard of Palladium and either likes them or hates them. Personally, I have yet to meet anyone in the middle. We gave Palladium the benefit of the doubt only to see that Palladium insists on doing the same thing over and over again only to blame the community for their errors of judgement.
I had given up on hope of Wave 2 at least a year ago. t seems the "fight" to keep Kevin from getting away with his con job is coming to naught, so I am finally and utterly giving up on RRT. May PB and HG rot in hell, I'm out.
<Edit> Actually, Kevin has done such a terrific job he got a three for one - I will no longer buy from PB, HG nor will I ever invest in a Kickstarter again. Great Job!
Seawolf, You are correct about Palladium becoming direct but I don't think it's by choice. Like Columbia Games that produces board games and RPGs they can survive with direct sales
But the big difference is when you compare them, CG made the choice to go direct and has a set schedule of what they are working on. Once it is ready "subscribers" are notified to send
them money for the new release.
Palladium games ran a kick starter; got 1.4 million dollars and never completed it. Clearly the money was not all used on the project, but we will never know because Kevin will never
admit foul play.. That's how it survives on funds from the kickstarter they will never finish, If you go to a game store and ask for any Palladium game stuff.. RTT or Rifts, most don't
carry it because most shops go for magic cards, PoPs and comics that will actually sale.
RPGs has reduced in popularity and so has Robotech, but the fan base is still out there. Most knows about train wreck that is going on and steers clear of the once great PG.
I do know a few game store owners that are in towns hundreds of miles apart. Some new, some been open for decades. When asked about it, they don't know all the details of
of what is going on, only that no one is asking for their products.
Kevin was once a important part of gaming history, Now his legacy is a borderline bankrupt company that sues people at the drop of a hat. A Bloated decades old RPG game system
that they keep adding more rules to. And a kick starter game that was half done very poorly with no end in sight of completion .
I put my copy of RTT on ebay, and one guy that bid on it asked if he could have the wave 2 stuff when it ships. I giggled to myself, but said yeah if it happens. I don't even know what I'm owed, I just had a basic battle cry pledge with no extra add ons.
Genoside07 wrote: Kevin was once a important part of gaming history, Now his legacy is a borderline bankrupt company that sues people at the drop of a hat. A Bloated decade old RPG game system
that they keep adding more rules to. And a kick starter game that was half done very poorly with no end in sight of completion .
Since Kev is unable to be relevant again he looks back at the "glory years" for any and all vindication.
They had good ideas in the past, just the bloated execution was brutal.
I think I used my newfound knowledge of "Lotus 123" way back when to sort out some of the painful character creation (did better with Excel later on).
I stopped caring when "White Wolf" came along.
Well... it's end of business hours now. Meaning that as is likely, Scott's scrambling to have something to put up, because you'ld expect that if he had gotten the new base sculpts, or revised the Force Orgs, or pretty much had anything done at all, it'd be up already.
I'd be surprised if nothing goes up tonight, but I'd be shocked if there was any actual content on anything (even tangentially) that matters to backers.
Too early to talk of Chinese New Year? Probably better to say nothing at all about it just that the gosh darn digital artist is STILL indisposed so those bases aren't done yet (remember it's the FANS fault these are delayed as they made suggestions) and the force org chart was used as bog paper by Unca Kev (oops!) so they have to start all over as they only had the one physical copy.
Force Orgs are still being worked on. Because that's a complicated task, that takes many months to do. And they're gotten a "lot" of good feedback. No mention of what that feedback is, or how many people a lot is. Because I've literally not seen it discussed anywhere. Granted, I'm not looking that hard, but if it's that difficult to find discussion on it, that's a problem in itself.
There's some updated resin bases. They don't look horrible, but they still have the issue of the 'tag' making them all likely to look the same. And I'm not a fan of the checkerplating on the smaller base. But they're serviceable.
Of course, that doesn't change the fact that these should have been a couple of hours of work, maximum, for anyone who makes a career in modelling. Not the literally 10 weeks it's taken to revise.
And as has already been screamed about in the comments, there's no mention of Wave 2 in any form. No mention of progress, no finalization of quotes, nothing.
Morgan Vening wrote: And as has already been screamed about in the comments, there's no mention of Wave 2 in any form. No mention of progress, no finalization of quotes, nothing.
I would remark that this should not be a surprise, but not only would it be pedantic it is also redundant.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Really at this point I am giving serious consideration to mailing everything I received for this kickstarter back to Palladium as a thank you for ripping me off of money I spent to make what could have been a reality.
Force Orgs are still being worked on. Because that's a complicated task, that takes many months to do. And they're gotten a "lot" of good feedback. No mention of what that feedback is, or how many people a lot is. Because I've literally not seen it discussed anywhere. Granted, I'm not looking that hard, but if it's that difficult to find discussion on it, that's a problem in itself.
I would be shocked if Scott has received any actual feedback about the force org charts via email. The vast majority of any emails must be "where's the money, Scott?".
The force org charts and the resin bases are a smoke screen to try and cover the lack of actual progress towards Wave 2. It really looks like nothing has been done since Wave 1 shipped. These 12 or so updates have made it more and more clear that PB has no intent of actually finishing the kickstarter. Well, let me rephrase that -- I think the intent was there. Really. I just think they overspent on Wave 1, failed to properly estimate all the expenses and now do not have enough capital to pay for Wave 2 plus shipping. If they had to the money, why wouldn't they have finished it when it was cheaper to produce and ship?
Maybe one day we'll get an actual accounting of what happened...
Of course, that doesn't change the fact that these should have been a couple of hours of work, maximum, for anyone who makes a career in modelling. Not the literally 10 weeks it's taken to revise.
The 4 years, since these would have originally been done by Ninja Division.
Cool, the bases are perfect. Incapable of being improved. Utterly the greatest contribution to both art and gaming that mankind hath wrought.
Heh!
My belief that we'll never actually see wave 2 remains firm, but I'm so tired of this one tiny facet of the project apparently eating an entire quarter of the year.
They're done. Just fething move onto something else for a change.
At least lie to me about something new every month or two.
Scooter's just phoning it in at best now. I don't get the Unca Kev shuckster emails any more so Palladium pretty much runs radio silence. I'm guessing they're praying people buy their Xmas Grab Bags and not much else going on? No books, no relaunch of gRifts the board game? No updates about whether Casey has even retained the license since the kickstarter crash n' burn?
Too early for a wrap up of how PB did in terms of actually meeting their 'schedule' for the year?
You mean the book schedule? Cause we know RRT produced jack drek.
He didn't do his usual "Here's what's getting released in 2017!" thing, like he's done previous years. I think he finally realized it just makes him look stupid when it's brought up how little they've done. But let's take a look anyway. I'll start in the last PBWU of last year, and use the first given release date for each item (rather than keeping track of the constant backtracking), and then the actual release date (if applicable). If an announcement isn't given, that's because it's at least a year old (or a Rifter) at that point, and I'm not going that far back.
Dec 29th, Rifter 76, due January. Released Feb 10th.
Jan 6th, Rifter 77, due February. Released March 9th.
Jan 6th, gRifts Board Game announced.
Jan 13th, Atlanteans, due March. Released August 9th.
Jan 13th, Sovietski, due Summer.
Jan 13th, Garden of the Gods, due March/April.
Jan 13th, Robotech Tactics, due 2017. "As far as we are concerned, releasing Robotech® RPG Tactics™ Wave II by the end of the year is a must!"
Jan 27th, HOH Arsenal, due February/March.
Jan 27th, Disavowed, due March/April.
Hmm... Turns out he did do a yearly itinerary. And it does make him look stupid. But I'll stick with what I'm doing. Waiting on a phone call, can't do much until then.
Feb 3rd, Dead Reign Inner City, due Spring.
Feb 3rd, "Others – We may try to slip in a few small books before summer."
Mar 2nd, gRifts Kickstarter due April/May.
Mar 2nd, Dead Reign Face of Death announced (looks like this is a rename of Inner City Survival, and I'll count it as the same)
Mar 22nd, Nightbane Dark Designs RAW, due March. Released before March 31st.
Mar 22nd, Dead Reign Face of Death, due Spring/Summer.
Mar 22nd, Nightbane Dark Designs, due Summer. Released August 31st.
Mar 31st, Rifter 78, due April/May. Released November 6th.
Jun 9th, Living Nowhere announced, due July.
Jun 16th, SCOTT GIBBONS HAS ARRIVED! HE'LL SAVE US!
Sep 8th, Rifter 79 announced.
Oct 20th, Rifter 79, due November.
Oct 20th, Rifts Bestiary 1+2 announced.
Oct 26th, Rifts Bestiary 1, due December. Because that's realistic based on past performance! Oct 26th, Rifts Bestiary 2, due January 2018. As is this!
According to Google, in the northern hemisphere, Spring ended 20th June, Summer ended 22nd September.
So... the summary. Rifters in parentheses, because they should count separate.
9 (+4) books announced with release dates this year. One of those due December, so still not technically late.
2 (+3) books released so far this year.
And how did they do?
0 (+0) released on schedule. The exception being DDRAW, which was, but is not counted above, because it was a limited run 150 copy thingy (and as of Nov 9th PBWU, and today's webstore, is still in stock)
0 (+2) released less than a month late. Rifter 79 could also do this.
1 (+0) released a month late.
1 (+0) released six months late.
0 (+1) released seven months late.
1 (+0) not yet late.
0 (+1) less than a month late, so far.
3 (+0) between four and six months late, and counting.
3 (+0) more than six months late, and counting.
So, as per normal, promising of large volumes of books (note, there's 10+ books in the yearly Update promised in 2017 and 2018 that didn't make this list), and delivering on two, one rushed for GenCon, and another made before end of year. They also squeeze out 3-4 Rifters. This appears to be their maximum output, year after year, yet it doesn't change their optimistic unrealistic ambitions.
Also, side note, because it's good to keep track.
March 21st-29th, 30% off RRT. One week only.
April 27th-May 30th, 30% off RRT.
November 10th-12th, 50% off. One weekend only.
November 16th-19th, 50% off. One weekend only again!
November 27th-29th, 50% off. Core Box only. "take advantage of this sale by then, because after that, it's over."
They've still got a month to get stuff done, but I'm not expecting anything of note. They may get one more plus the Rifter done, but I'm not betting on it. Not with CGB season in full swing, and holiday times.
n815e wrote: It must kill Kevin -- I'm sure he wants to start up a new begging campaign, but if he does then he is admitting that they blew the money...
Who sticks a eulogy for a friend's mother in the middle of a price list and signs it "Kevin Siembieda, Publisher, Writer, Artist, Friend"?
Who calls his best friend's sister "the daughter"?
It's... bizarre.
JohnHwangDD wrote: RRT already covered that particular excuse with Casey.
I have always wondered what kind of scam they where running... I think Kevin was having him do something very dirty and he couldn't take it..
I believe that they thought gRifts was going to be huge and they would fund RRT with it, so Kevin was pressuring Carmen to get it up.
Carmen's own words show what kind of situation he felt he was in -- that he spent a lot on the license and development, that he came to realize that PB's mismanagement of RRT was going to kill his own game, that Kevin was forcing him to launch even though he wasn't ready and with no chance of success.
Kevin pushed Carmen into a corner.
If the license was close to expiration, and Carmen just plain wasn't ready (based on the embarrassing gak show that was his KS campaign), then he was destined to a massive failure no matter what.
If Kevin was threatening him, or making him promises of assistance (to turn into a full takeover, I'm sure), or something like that, well that's a different story.
Carmen's first mistake was having terrible judgement in "friends". Nothing else was going to turn out well for him after that.
Odds are, the gRifts KS falling miserably is the best thing that could have happened to the guy. Now he just needs to hitch himself to a proper horse, rather than a three-legged senile donkey with delusions of grandeur and explosive diarrhea.
But every gamer geek wants to be famous with a major book with their name on it..
I am sure that is the first Kevin promise to every fan friend. We will put your name right after mine..
The sad thing is they just need to stop everything and look what they owe and not
work on anything until those are complete... but that would be using reason...
Genoside07 wrote: But every gamer geek wants to be famous with a major book with their name on it..
I am sure that is the first Kevin promise to every fan friend. We will put your name right after mine..
The sad thing is they just need to stop everything and look what they owe and not
work on anything until those are complete... but that would be using reason...
Yup. When I saw they added two bestiary books a couple weeks ago, with an expected release date of 2 and 3 months, my eyes rolled so hard that I got a good view of my optical nerves. Especially given Living Nowhere had a 2 month release window, and is now 5+ months late.
If Scott really was running things in a professional manner, there should be no work on anything else until RRT was well underway, and Sovietski, Garden, Arsenal, Disavowed, Face of Death and Living Nowhere was complete. Then Kevin could faf about with whatever he wanted. But clearing off the scheduled (most of those a year, if not more late) items before adding more, should be the first f'n thing done. Carving out exceptions for the POH, and convention season, and the CGB period, is one thing. Adding more books, at least the announcement of, should be a non-starter.
Kevin is now 61. At the actual rate of release, assuming nothing more gets added, and nothing gets further slowed, and his use of plurals in the yearly itinerary is accurate, there's at least 22 books on the docket. Given Kevin seems to need to personally involve himself in everything, that puts the current backlog finishing no earlier than the end of 2028, with Kevin being 72 years old. Not extending his workload.
Because he got one books off his extended schedule this year. Added and completed another one, and added three more. He's going BACKWARDS in his backlog.
Dating back decades, because this pattern of delays, long delays, and then promising more books that ended up being delayed dates back well before my time playing Rifts in the mid 90's, I can't help but feel it's actually kind of intentional.
Hear me out.
Kevin is a dreamer. He dreams of releasing a dozen books in a year, of adding a giant pile to the pending catalog and knocking them off in short order as well. Actually completing the books is a necessary evil to pay bills, but also the entire end goal to have another notch or three on his belt for 'books with my name on them'. But the way I see it, I think the enthusiasm for a new idea (at least to him, obviously the primary franchise (and most of the secondary ones) are derivative as feth) is the real spark, all the hard work holds lesser appeal.
And I think he expects True PB Fans(tm) to respond the same way. Sure, some people bemoan Mechanoid Space or Beyond the Supernatural being years or a decade late or whatever, but they keep coming back, posting on their forums, Liking their Facebook statuses, buying Grab Bags, and all that ego stroking/stream of income that comes with them.
They struggle to get Rifters out on time, and they don't even write most of that material (yeah yeah, I'm sure Kevin gives most of it a once-over to make sure his name gets top billing), and that's effectively a small magazine. As Morgan has noted a few times, they get maybe 2 non-Rifters out a year, but talk about dozens of others at various stages of completion, and then add another half dozen new things for good measure.
Whether it's a sickness or ego run wild or something else (it's not an exhaustive list), I'm beginning to suspect that the spike of dopamine he gets from 'new' ideas and the expectation that the core PB diehards feel the same way might make those kinds of statements a Feature, Not a Bug, as it were.
The system working as intended! Something else to get the True Fans excited, even if it doesn't materialize for several years (if ever), but that initial oomph of interest and enthusiasm seeing them through the rest of the day.
I could be entirely wrong, maybe they really think this is a solid way to do business, but I can't imagine this is entirely coincidental. Like their baffling silence on RRT that is counter-productive at best, they seem to have found that niche and leaned into it, regardless of the fact that it leads to a pit filled with spiders and dirty syringes. That's the path they chose and they are dedicated to pushing with all their might to go that way, reality and consequences be damned.
Edit: Hell, I even recall 20'ish years ago seeing the same pattern and at the time it was kind of endearing, in a 'oh you guys' sort of way. Especially starting out, when there was a backlog of dozens upon dozens of books to buy to catch up, and they had a semi-steady stream of new content underway, so no big deal. But as the years went by, the pattern remained, and our collections filled out with everything we were remotely interested in, it grew ever more frustrating, and was certainly part of why we abandoned the system (though really, their intentional lack of balance and the extra legwork necessary to run or play the game was most of it, D&D 3E's (comparative) balance was a refreshing breath of air when we picked it up for that reason alone).
My read has always been that Kevin gets excited about new products, new talent and new creations very easily. When in "the zone" he can work 20 hour days on a project to see it done.
Or at least he used to be able to.
The problem is when a project starts not to meet his expectations and no longer justifies his excitement. That's when things start to drift.
evilsmurf wrote: I wonder if he does truly still enjoy writing. Or has it become a chore for him, maybe feeling some burnout?
I think he likes the idea of writing. Like Forar said, it seems like it's the inspiration that gets his motor going. Actually completing a project, that's uninspired.
He's simultaneously working on multiple books, and not just in a writing one, layout of another, but constantly working on several at the same stage constantly. Seriously, open any PBWU over the last 3+ years, and there's a better than even chance that he refers to multiple books he's working on.
But Kevin has also damaged his own brand... Again.. not many Game shops want to carry any of his stuff because no one is asking for it.
Just a very few fan friends that can buy direct is all that is left. Just look at the article in news and rumors here on dakka dakka, GW is one of
best performing stock in 2017. Not the Palladium has stock, but the big difference is GW saw that they where on the wrong path and needed
to do something different. Palladium wants to be like GW but doing nothing to change. Oh ya.. they hired a business manager.
Most business managers I have dealt with in the past, they would deal with day to day company issues and resolve them. Little hard for Scott doing this since
everything being worked on is a few thousand miles away, plus I am sure Kevin not telling him everything he needs to know. We can clearly see this going on.
I personally think it is Scott that is designing the RTT bases in his spare time with a free online google sculpt program.. Just to show the kickstarter
is being worked on.
So Scott's next RTT update will be about how wonderful it is to be around family for Christmas, As business manager he should know it should be product related;
He should also realize this his 12th update with no real advancement of the project..
Kevin is looking to be a superstar.
To find that next big idea that will bring him fame.
When he says he is excited and is getting a "charge" out of some project, he is trying to get the fan-base to voice their excitement.
If he can only hear crickets chirping, he quickly moves on to something else.
The "projects" that may not see the light of day is when the silence was deafening or he ran out of resources to complete it.
He may even hope we "forget" about some of them.
His business is largely to feed his ego and priority moves to whatever gets him attention, it is as simple as that.
Having seen and met the man......in addition to years upon years of his updates, murmurs, and podcast interviews.....he is an huge narcissist with a enormously inflated ego and notion of his importance/influence/legacy to the industry.
If you go to a show and nobody has heard of you after three decades in the business, then how could you possibly think you have any relevance or legacy?
n815e wrote: If you go to a show and nobody has heard of you after three decades in the business, then how could you possibly think you have any relevance or legacy?
I'd argue that plenty of folks have heard of Palladium after three decades in the business (specifically past tense since new players haven't heard of them and some older ones thought they long ago went out of business). They do have a long legacy in the industry as a major player in the late 80's to early/mid 90's but that legacy doesn't guarantee a future or even current relevance. What people are hearing now (and in my experience, for over a decade since the "Crisis of Treachery" panhandling) is largely negative and that legacy (including the more recent addition of screwing over 5,000+ dedicated Robotech customers) has soured. Palladium has consistently been a historical footnote in the industry due to their prior importance as a successful IP that failed to evolve yet brought up alot of nostalgia; that footnote however is now evolving into a cautionary tale about a lethal mix of arrogance, incompetence, and crowdfunding due to their ongoing failure(s) since RRPGT. They're the SEGA of tabletop gaming.
n815e wrote: If you go to a show and nobody has heard of you after three decades in the business, then how could you possibly think you have any relevance or legacy?
I'd argue that plenty of folks have heard of Palladium after three decades in the business (specifically past tense since new players haven't heard of them and some older ones thought they long ago went out of business). They do have a long legacy in the industry as a major player in the late 80's to early/mid 90's but that legacy doesn't guarantee a future or even current relevance. What people are hearing now (and in my experience, for over a decade since the "Crisis of Treachery" panhandling) is largely negative and that legacy (including the more recent addition of screwing over 5,000+ dedicated Robotech customers) has soured. Palladium has consistently been a historical footnote in the industry due to their prior importance as a successful IP that failed to evolve yet brought up alot of nostalgia; that footnote however is now evolving into a cautionary tale about a lethal mix of arrogance, incompetence, and crowdfunding due to their ongoing failure(s) since RRPGT. They're the SEGA of tabletop gaming.
Warboss is right. I spent hundreds of hours in Palladium worlds in the 90s, from Rifts and TMNT to Beyond the Supernatural and Nightbane. (and plenty of crossover adventures due to the Megaverse book). They are like that band you loved in high school that had one minor radio hit, and now you are surprised to find are still trying to make it, doing dive bars and county fairs for just enough money to have dinner and limp along to the next gig.
About a year after Rifts was published, White Wolf (1991)came along and released "Vampire Masquerade" and then the open game license "D20" system (2000) pretty much signaled their end of relevance.
The problem with being a narcissist is you believe what you do is "perfect" and spend most of your time trying to convince others of your greatness.
Talizvar wrote: About a year after Rifts was published, White Wolf (1991)came along and released "Vampire Masquerade" and then the open game license "D20" system (2000) pretty much signaled their end of relevance.
The problem with being a narcissist is you believe what you do is "perfect" and spend most of your time trying to convince others of your greatness.
And hiring people who will feed that self-delusion. Don't forget that, because it's important. In that warehouse in Westland, Michigan, he live in a bubble of his own creation, and the only people allowed in, are the people he hand selects to stroke his ego. Despite protestations that he doesn't hire people that will "blow smoke", that's usually followed by people blowing smoke ("You've redefined the genre!"). I'd be interested to hear of ANY sharp criticism from an employee/freelancer that Kevin has taken on board, and changed direction on, especially one where Kevin's conviction was firm, and where not changing his mind would have been the wrong thing to do.
The last caveat is because Kevin's said a couple of times that his vision/his idea/his plan was the correct one, and it was being convinced by others that lead to the latest problem, and if he'd been left to his original awesome idea, everything would have worked out perfectly. Because that wouldn't count against his narcissism for obvious reasons.
Talizvar wrote: About a year after Rifts was published, White Wolf (1991)came along and released "Vampire Masquerade" and then the open game license "D20" system (2000) pretty much signaled their end of relevance.
The problem with being a narcissist is you believe what you do is "perfect" and spend most of your time trying to convince others of your greatness.
I didn't like Vampire: The Masquerade as it quickly devolved into every party member trying to sleep with the one real girl who was willing to play with us. I cleverly got around this problem by playing Rifts, which no girl was willing to play.
Morgan Vening wrote: I'd be interested to hear of ANY sharp criticism from an employee/freelancer that Kevin has taken on board, and changed direction on, especially one where Kevin's conviction was firm, and where not changing his mind would have been the wrong thing to do.
IIRC he said that people around him criticized the Robotech project because he was being too generous to backers. Apparently he really took that to heart and decided to not give us Wave 2 in any timely fashion.
Talizvar wrote: About a year after Rifts was published, White Wolf (1991)came along and released "Vampire Masquerade" and then the open game license "D20" system (2000) pretty much signaled their end of relevance.
The problem with being a narcissist is you believe what you do is "perfect" and spend most of your time trying to convince others of your greatness.
I didn't like Vampire: The Masquerade as it quickly devolved into every party member trying to sleep with the one real girl who was willing to play with us. I cleverly got around this problem by playing Rifts, which no girl was willing to play.
Heh, funny you should say this, as my Rifts group started around 50/50 guys and gals. At our peak balance we had 3 women playing and 3 or 4 men, though 2 of the women lost interest in the game (RPGs in general) fairly swiftly.
And then yeah we swung in the entirely opposite direction and ended up with something like 1 woman and 7-10 guys playing, though luckily we kept the obnoxiousness you describe to a minimum.
When we took up D&D 3E we split into 2 groups with I think ~4 players and a DM apiece. That was kind of fun and interesting, as it eventually let us compare notes as to how we progressed through similar modules.
Oh yeah, having pre-written and balanced modules was SUPER CONVENIENT compared to GM'ing for Rifts, which was... challenging. Especially as groups grew in power (which wasn't handled nearly as elegantly as it is in 3E).
Talizvar wrote: About a year after Rifts was published, White Wolf (1991)came along and released "Vampire Masquerade" and then the open game license "D20" system (2000) pretty much signaled their end of relevance.
The problem with being a narcissist is you believe what you do is "perfect" and spend most of your time trying to convince others of your greatness.
I didn't like Vampire: The Masquerade as it quickly devolved into every party member trying to sleep with the one real girl who was willing to play with us. I cleverly got around this problem by playing Rifts, which no girl was willing to play.
I went through some freak/goth phase so female players were rather plentiful for any Vampire role-play (1985 was when "The Vampire Lestat" was published by Anne Rice... I was 16 then).
It was live action enough going to "'Sanctuary: The Vampire Sex Bar" (Formerly known as "The Abyss") in Toronto when I turned of age to be able to go to those bars.
Palladium was never really "sexy" so tended to be a fairly hard-core nerd-base which I cannot exclude myself from.
I suspect that the number of people attending "Vampire Sex Bars" (in Toronto or otherwise) is a shocking minority of the population, let alone gamers, let alone RPG players. :-P
Funny, I know some people who used to go there, however. You might have crossed paths with one of them at some point (no idea if the timing lines up, more an idle musing). Small world.
Forar wrote: I suspect that the number of people attending "Vampire Sex Bars" (in Toronto or otherwise) is a shocking minority of the population, let alone gamers, let alone RPG players. :-P
Funny, I know some people who used to go there, however. You might have crossed paths with one of them at some point (no idea if the timing lines up, more an idle musing). Small world.
Suuuure... you have some "friends" who used to go there... got it. I used to go to a goth club once a year for a friends birthday celebration and it was a nice change of pace.. except for the year that I threw up the fragrant and delicious blackberry vodka drink special in a car full of clove smokers wearing rose petal perfume. #thingsthatonlyhappenwhilegothclubbing
I'm a French Robotech fan ( and i should already apologize for my terrible English) or more exactly i used to be.
I discovered PB in the early 90's when i came across the Robotech rpg books (i still got them).
I was not a backer but I have been able to pre order RRT when it became available and received my core box just before Christmas in 2015.
I've been waiting wave 2 for a long time and finally i gave up.
I'm still painting my minis (almost done) and actually have not been able to play a single game (no players in my area).
I decided to at least collect most of the mecha from the show and did some research for 3d models available (Shapeways and others).
I even began to create my own models and will probably never play the game when i will have printed them all.
I have been reading this thread for months and the KS page as well.
It is quite entertaining in a way but this projet really sounds like a bad joke.
@Talizvar,
The answer is not a simple one, I think mostly because after reading you and the others I wanted to say "heh, you're right about this game being a lost cause but it remains the closest thing we have and yes, a lot of people found the will to maintain and enhance it even further.
A part of me found some comfort in reading this thread day after day and that gave me strength and motivation to carry on this project.
I was a teenager when i first watched Robotech on TV (in the late 80's) and the show was incredible! I have three sons now; the two older ones were introduced to Robotech last year and liked it a lot.
So may be I should just say 'hé guys, merci beaucoup !"
I'm thinking things might be getting a little bit desperate. Whether it's to clear out inventory, or to generate quick revenue, it's clear that something is happening. They keep referencing significant demand, but if demand was that significant, then they wouldn't need to offer it at clearance pricing.
For the fourth time in five weeks, for "one weekend only", RRT is at 50% off. Again. It's almost as bad as the excessive CGB extensions.
But don't you worry! "It is the Number One Anime on Crackle". Despite it not being on Crackle for several weeks (if not months) at least now. Seriously, if he's gonna keep cutting and pasting the majority of a 27+ page PBWU, updating the information seems like a reasonable request.
And with 10 business days remaining before Christmas, he's still thinking he can get the first Bestiary book finished, edited, formatted, printed, and shipped before the holiday. He's a bad parody of Bullwinkle at this point. "Hey Fan-Friends! Watch me pull a book out of my ass!"
It was live action enough going to "'Sanctuary: The Vampire Sex Bar" (Formerly known as "The Abyss") in Toronto when I turned of age to be able to go to those bars.
Heh, I knew some guys who tried to get in there with bandoleers full of wooden stakes. The bouncer had a sense of humor about it, but didn't let them in.
@Ctaylor, @Soul Samurai.
Thanks a lot !
I wanted my Robotech armies to reflect the anime style. I still have some work to do in order to achieve that.
I will be working on others 3d models as i have started to print some of them.
This conversation has taken a turn I never anticipated. I just wanted to chime in and say that goth clubs and vampire the masquerade also ended my gaming groups involvement in palladium games.
Eventually it was all club nights, girls, and the occasional cyberpunk 2020 session but that is more or less how RPG culture died in my life.
![[Disk]](/dakkaforum/templates/default/images/icon_disk.gif){kind=icon}
It wasn't a serious response.
. Plus it's a Wave 5 release and 
