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With vehicle survivability so high in 5th, Chaos has moved to take advantage of both ends of this spectrum: double meltaguns to kill tanks, and cheap, durable Rhinos to get them there. Close combat is more brutal now, and with CSM packing close combat weapons they have something to do once they've gotten so close to the enemy. In all this new-found awesome sauce, where has the humble gun-line gone? That is what I intend to find out.

First, let's look at what we can use in a gun-line.
HQs:
Lord: He melees, but needs a squad to do it. Nope.
Daemon Prince: He doesn't need a squad, and can give target saturation depending on what else we deem viable (I'm doing this as I go, give me a break). Lash is probably going to be invaluable, so either that or MoN.
Sorcerer: Supports squads, has ranged abilities. However, he too likes close combat and can't do it on his own. Lash is great with him, but I fear its impact on the squads he is with. Could be useful to hide a Lash though.
Greater Daemon: No. You might want his stompingly great close combat support if the rest of your list shapes up without it, but you should be fine.
Elites:
Possessed: Melee. Nope.
Dreads: Cheap target saturation, but I'm not trusting this guy with a gun.
Terminators: Maybe. Reapers might be nice, but this is primarily a melee unit, so probably not.
Chosen: Can take a lot of guns. Infiltrating forward won't help, but deploying last and not being restricted to your deployment zone is very nice. These guys can get set up in their perfect line of fire right off the bat. Yes.
Troops:
Berserkers: Nope.
Plague Marines: Yeah, but not really. They don't have the heavy firepower that you want, and my ideal gun-line has you spending the majority of your points on Troops. We'll see if we need these hard objective holders.
Thousand Sons: I'm going to say no. They are expensive and lack the sheer firepower we need. They also need other units to support them in close combat, so we'll be draining even more points for them.
Chaos Space Marines: Cheap, reliable, can take a heavy weapon and will fight off anything not specialised for killing MEQs in CC. They are their own counter-assault squad. Yes.
Noise Marines: Jack-pot. Literally no other troop puts out this much firepower, let alone has their prowess in close combat. Expensive, but they don't need a large squad. Yes.
Lesser Daemons: Cheap cannon fodder. Can be used defensively, but CSM won't need that by the time the enemy runs the gauntlet of their firepower.
Rhinos: A Havoc Launcher gives them the firepower of a Whirlwind without sacrificing their mobility. I'm on the fence about Daemonic Possession, but given that you can get a third Havoc Rhino if you don't take it on the first two, I doubt it.
Fast Attack:
Raptors: Counter-assault. No.
Bikers: Interestingly shooty, but they are expensive. I can see lists using them (well, not on Dakka), we'll pass for now.
Spawn: These aren't really Fast Attack. Moving on.
Heavy Support:
Ignoring the Landraider, anything here is fair game, and will shape the rest of your army. DPs, Defilers and Dreads can give you a Monster Mash (and the consequently some awesome melee power) feel while retaining your SAFH power in your Troops. Vindicators will give you anti-TEQ and tankbusting you might otherwise be missing. Oblits are never out of place. Predators give you great anti-transport and METAWL BAWKSES saturation, but I wouldn't take 3 slots of these. Havocs will give you more MEQs and Rhinos, so you can spam the hell out of that.

I'm going to write up a list and see what'll happen:
Daemon Prince, MoS, Lash, 135
Daemon Prince, MoS, Lash, 135
10 CSM, Plasmagun, Missile Launcher, Icon of Glory, Rhino with Havoc Launcher: 235
10 CSM, Plasmagun, Missile Launcher, Icon of Glory, Rhino with Havoc Launcher: 235
6 Noise Marines, 5 Sonic Blasters, Blastmaster, Rhino with Havoc Launcher, 235
Vindicator, Daemonic Possession, TL Bolter, 150
Vindicator, Daemonic Possession, TL Bolter, 150
3 Obliterators, 225
1500

This is probably the only place where a Prince can go without Wings (hell, I'm shoving all the radical stuff I can think of here so I have something to talk about this week). Lash has a 24" range, which is convienently everyone's sweet spot. Lash sets up the blast templates in every squad and the Princes hang by the whatever is vulnerable to assault. For those who are unsure about how much damage this list can do, every single blast template will get 7-8 hits easy. How many templates do we have? 11. This list needs no countercharge, as everything is sturdy in close combat, especially given how much damage things will have taken to get here.

Now Night Lords wants me to compare CSM gun-line to SM gun-line, and I'll get to that later. I've written all this up in an hour and I need time to anaylse the SM codex. Be assured it will be done and added.

Go, discuss it!

It's rather easy to take an SM gun-line. The only thing that needs to be done is to NOT take an assault squad. While the standard SM captain is a primarily CC based unit, you CAN give him a Bolter/Heavy Weapon. As far as the variations, the obvious choice is for a DA Deathwing Terminator gunline army with Land Raiders for extra heavy weapon support.

While it is possible to make a pretty trigger-happy Black Termplar army, it's not a good idea. Too high a chance they'll rush into CC with nothing but bolters and heavy weapons. Bad Idea. Then there's the forced EC. It'll just die.

BA are obvious. No. Now I'm not so sure about the Space Wolves. They seem very capable of gunline, but i don't know if they should. It sort of goes against principal to make the viking-barbarian people wait in the back with their guns.

Just my 2 cents on the SM gunline.

Now it's far less practical to make a gunline CSM, because (as you've proved in the above) most of their units don't have any practical abilities with ranged weapons. Like with all lists, it's possible. It's just not practical.

It's impractical because other units we aren't using don't shoot well? Ignore those. Focus on what does. Are the remaining units capable of outshooting another dedicated shooting army? With Lash, I think so.

I'm going to be focusing on Codex Marines for my comparison. I'll try to do a codex run through like I did here.

I think you misunderstand. It's far less practical because there simply aren't as many options. I don't mean to say it's hard to make a CSM gunline list or to make a good one, I'm just saying you have less options as a whole (in theory, at least)

Cool topic choice - but should we define 'gun-line'? Basically I use this term to mean any army thats based around standing still and shooting.

DarkHound wrote:
First, let's look at what we can use in a gun-line.
HQs:
Lord: He melees, but needs a squad to do it. Nope.
Daemon Prince: He doesn't need a squad, and can give target saturation depending on what else we deem viable (I'm doing this as I go, give me a break). Lash is probably going to be invaluable, so either that or MoN.
Sorcerer: Supports squads, has ranged abilities. However, he too likes close combat and can't do it on his own. Lash is great with him, but I fear its impact on the squads he is with. Could be useful to hide a Lash though.
Greater Daemon: No. You might want his stompingly great close combat support if the rest of your list shapes up without it, but you should be fine.

Ok - no arguments, but I wonder if you have forgotten Arhiman (maybe on purpose)? He's by no means a party favourite, but if we are talking stand back and shoot, then Warptime followed up by Bolt of change gives you some reasonable distance action for incoming fire. None of the other named HQ have much in the way of gun-line action.

Elites:
Possessed: Melee. Nope.
Dreads: Cheap target saturation, but I'm not trusting this guy with a gun.
Terminators: Maybe. Reapers might be nice, but this is primarily a melee unit, so probably not.
Chosen: Can take a lot of guns. Infiltrating forward won't help, but deploying last and not being restricted to your deployment zone is very nice. These guys can get set up in their perfect line of fire right off the bat. Yes.

If you have a land raider to stand them next to, Dreads can be very effective at shooting (barring the risk of them charging forward when you dont want them too). The plasma cannon and the missile launchers are great weapons, and wont scratch your LR's paintjob. One either side of an LR adds some meat to the LR shootiness, But I agree, not 'optimal' Gunline.

Troops:
Berserkers: Nope.
Plague Marines: Yeah, but not really. They don't have the heavy firepower that you want, and my ideal gun-line has you spending the majority of your points on Troops. We'll see if we need these hard objective holders.
Thousand Sons: I'm going to say no. They are expensive and lack the sheer firepower we need. They also need other units to support them in close combat, so we'll be draining even more points for them.
Chaos Space Marines: Cheap, reliable, can take a heavy weapon and will fight off anything not specialised for killing MEQs in CC. They are their own counter-assault squad. Yes.
Noise Marines: Jack-pot. Literally no other troop puts out this much firepower, let alone has their prowess in close combat. Expensive, but they don't need a large squad. Yes.
Lesser Daemons: Cheap cannon fodder. Can be used defensively, but CSM won't need that by the time the enemy runs the gauntlet of their firepower.
Rhinos: A Havoc Launcher gives them the firepower of a Whirlwind without sacrificing their mobility. I'm on the fence about Daemonic Possession, but given that you can get a third Havoc Rhino if you don't take it on the first two, I doubt it.

I think the thousand sons are understated here. The ability to move and rapid fire AP3 bolters cant be understated against MEQ, and they can control 'firing lines' very effectively as they dont need to deploy in cover being blessed with the 4+ invuln already. I find that a large squad of 1ksons draws (and survives) fire like nothing else, and I use them like a mobile gun-line. Remember that even a gun-line army may need to advance on an objective. Alternatively, if you are looking for cheaper and non-moving, If I recall you dont have to give them a sorcerer, saving you 60+ points.

Otherwise, for Gun-line, Nilla CSMs are the way to go with two HW (AC's/ML's), deployed in cover.

Fast Attack:
Raptors: Counter-assault. No.
Bikers: Interestingly shooty, but they are expensive. I can see lists using them (well, not on Dakka), we'll pass for now.
Spawn: These aren't really Fast Attack. Moving on.

Fast are thin on the ground for CSM at the best of time, but on the basis that you want your fast to be contesting objectives at the end of the game, and staying out of trouble otherwise - i would go some turbo bikers (I do like a 3+ cover save to make sure you survive that objective contesting).

Heavy Support:
Ignoring the Landraider, anything here is fair game, and will shape the rest of your army. DPs, Defilers and Dreads can give you a Monster Mash (and the consequently some awesome melee power) feel while retaining your SAFH power in your Troops. Vindicators will give you anti-TEQ and tankbusting you might otherwise be missing. Oblits are never out of place. Predators give you great anti-transport and METAWL BAWKSES saturation, but I wouldn't take 3 slots of these. Havocs will give you more MEQs and Rhinos, so you can spam the hell out of that.

Ok - Lr's are designed to deliver assault troops, so I agree they are out, but I think a Vindicator is just too short ranged to be a proper gun-line option. And Defilers are an odd mix of Shooty and Chompy. For Gun-line purposes (as defined by me here as stand and shoot) - I dont think you can go past Oblits for versatiltiy or Havocs for sheer numbers of BS4 weapons.

All just my personal opinion!

While one can do a Chaos Gunline, it won't be efficient with points in regards to hvy weapons per points.

At the end of the day, the meat and potatoes CSM is paying 150+ points for a single '10 wound' Hvy weapon/other small arms, and has little flexibility.

For all else: I agree with darkkt and DarkHound.

Even though many of the CSM units are geared for CC, I think you can build and effective SAFH list. That one that Darkhound wrote looks prety good to me. However, its not the only thing you can do. As was pointed out, Noise marines can be really shooty, and backed up by Lash they get deadlier.

I think thousands sons have a place. Darkkt has a point, moving your rhino 12 inches then rapid firing with AP3 bolters can really do some damage.

But not to go into too much analysis, CSM definietly have the units capable of making a really shooty build. Even something as simple as 9 oblits, 5 squads of decked out noise marines, and a lash sorcerer/prince, is simple and has tons of firepower.

At least, that is what I think.

Whether it's good or not to run a chaos gunline is irrelevant imo but I like the idea of figuring out how to do it best once it's done

DarkHound wrote:
Terminators: Maybe. Reapers might be nice, but this is primarily a melee unit, so probably not.

I think these guys would be those to open transports. 115 pts for one autocannon seems a lot, but they are hard to kill and give you an extra anti-charge.
And the enemy's anti TEQ weapons won't concentrate on them as long as there are oblits. Add in a combi plasmagun or two for one round of S7 death to any vehicle (or if needed MEQ/TEQ) getting too close.

For troops choices I'd prefer to go Noise Marines all the way. The ratio of firepower towards points spent on CSM just ain't worth it. Best you could do are 2 plasmaguns and those would be cheaper and more durable among a smaller squad of plague marines. And the OP explained above why he wouldn't favour those.

For heavies I'd choose oblits over the other choices for their versatility, still it'd give me some pain to have no other vehicles than rhinos for reasons of target priority.

Just my 2 cents

@ RAC Termies.
3 Terminators are not hard to kill, and every three wounds could snipe the RAC.
You don't need TEQ weapons to kill termies, random small arms seem to hit their eye sockets consistantly enough to down them.

darkkt wrote:Alternatively, if you are looking for cheaper and non-moving, If I recall you dont have to give them a sorcerer, saving you 60+ points.

You recall incorrectly. A base squad is Sorcerer and 4 Thousand Sons.

DarkHound wrote:First, let's look at what we can use in a gun-line.
HQs:
Lord: He melees, but needs a squad to do it. Nope.

Tzeentch Daemonweapon is a d6 assault doombolt spitter totally worth 40 points (maybe if you're facing a CC army )

darkkt wrote:
I think the thousand sons are understated here. The ability to move and rapid fire AP3 bolters cant be understated against MEQ, and they can control 'firing lines' very effectively as they dont need to deploy in cover being blessed with the 4+ invuln already. I find that a large squad of 1ksons draws (and survives) fire like nothing else, and I use them like a mobile gun-line. Remember that even a gun-line army may need to advance on an objective. Alternatively, if you are looking for cheaper and non-moving, If I recall you dont have to give them a sorcerer, saving you 60+ points.

Otherwise, for Gun-line, Nilla CSMs are the way to go with two HW (AC's/ML's), deployed in cover.

If only Chaos was so simple , you can only get one HW with Vanilla CSM, and a 1k sons squad consists of "1 apsiring sorcerer and 4-19 1k sons", so you're going to have to get him too, and MUST be given a psychic power- so hes really 70-90 points, with 23 point bodyguards =\ I dunno about anyone else, but i'm leaning closer to Vanilla CSM if i want them on my side of the field, or Plago's if i want them on their side of the field (and want something thats going to get shot). On the other hand If I know I'm playing MEQ's I don't underestimate them

Fast Attack:
Raptors: Counter-assault. No.
Bikers: Interestingly shooty, but they are expensive. I can see lists using them (well, not on Dakka), we'll pass for now.
Spawn: These aren't really Fast Attack. Moving on.

Fast are thin on the ground for CSM at the best of time, but on the basis that you want your fast to be contesting objectives at the end of the game, and staying out of trouble otherwise - i would go some turbo bikers (I do like a 3+ cover save to make sure you survive that objective contesting).

I like raining on parades.
It only really shows who comes prepared and brings an umbrella.
There is much positive reinforcement, I'm just keeping things balanced with the opposite.

;-)

Sanctjud wrote:I like raining on parades.
It only really shows who comes prepared and brings an umbrella.
There is much positive reinforcement, I'm just keeping things balanced with the opposite.

;-)

I wouldn't have it any other way. Now, in no particular order, on to bizzyness.

Yes, we'll want a definition for gun-line. Gun-line is a playstyle that means stand and shoot, but in order for it to be functional we need to be able to pack up and move, otherwise we are stuck relying on wipe outs to win Capture and Control.

The list I build was just something I slammed together to see if everything I wrote worked. I'll write up a couple more examples later, but I'd also like to see what you guys can build.

I did kind of cringe at the price of those CSM squads compared to the Noise Marines, but raw power isn't everything. You are also putting more bodies on the field, and that can be invaluable. That, and a Krak Missile is somewhat more accurate than a Blastmaster, meaning you add to your anti-transport until enough infantry have fallen out of their transports.

One thing I want to point out (and forgot to do in the intro) was that we want to avoid buying counter-assault units. That is the biggest thing Chaos gun-line has over SM. They need counter assault, while we are counterassault. We are able to cram as much firepower into the list and rely on the fact that CSM fight as well as most SM assault units if the enemy finally does get to us. (That means Terminators are out until further notice.)

I was looking at the Tzeentch Lord, but isn't the range only 12"? Not going to cut it I'm afraid, given how many points you are putting into him. He is still essentially a counter-charge unit, and so we want to avoid him as a rule. Tzeentch Princes have to be close to the enemy, and in doing so he ends up making himself too large of a target because there is nothing supporting him. I'll pass. Lash is a great power, and the only gripe I have with it is in Fzorgle where it ignores fluff for WAAC gaming.

On the subject of Tzeentch, Thousand Sons. The problem with them is, as always, the price for what you get. Your 4+ invul is cool, but you are in a gun-line. You take cover, making the invul irrelevant. Thousand Sons really only shine in a Rhino rush, where you can get close enough to Rapid Fire your bolters while the 4+ invul comes into play. I don't advocate them yet, but I'll try building a list around them later.

Anyway, I'm short on time. I'll try to make the aforementioned SAFH Monster Mash and a Tzeentch Gun-line later tonight.

I'm surprised Night Lords isn't here yet, but he'll probably show up once I get the SM run-down finished.

Tzeentch lord is 24" still hes so not worth it, it was more of a joke speaking of which, where does "Fzorgle" come from? i know the term but i just can't figure out where it might come from lol.

but seriously-

DarkHound wrote:
I did kind of cringe at the price of those CSM squads compared to the Noise Marines, but raw power isn't everything. You are also putting more bodies on the field, and that can be invaluable. That, and a Krak Missile is somewhat more accurate than a Blastmaster, meaning you add to your anti-transport until enough infantry have fallen out of their transports.

One thing I want to point out (and forgot to do in the intro) was that we want to avoid buying counter-assault units. That is the biggest thing Chaos gun-line has over SM. They need counter assault, while we are counterassault. We are able to cram as much firepower into the list and rely on the fact that CSM fight as well as most SM assault units if the enemy finally does get to us. (That means Terminators are out until further notice.)

Agreed but... i have to say on the terminators, in a army like speed freak wiv lots of trukks, i wouldn't mind having the RAC for transport popping action. The points are abit hmmmmm though- 175 for 5 terms with power weaps and a RAC, or 10 CSM w/ a ML/Plasma- which has good chances of popping trukks. The less casual the game, the less terms you would see in a Chaos gunline methinks.

Triggerbaby coined Fzorgle back in the Dakka buzzword rush of 08.

It's on Dakka Dakka, google is your friend.

What is it supposed to mean? where did he get it from? I'm working so i don't have time to sift through old threads, and i'm racking my brain with thoughts like "Fzorgle... is that the sound the lash makes? or the sound of the only thing that stops it... is it perils of the warp? the sound of daemons eating your mind? ehhhh?"

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/179282.page#180065

lol just like i thought, the sound the lash makes. I love it (its tempting me to use lash just to make the noise!)

I guess I have a different view of what a gunline army is composed of. Personally this is just another variation on the typical run of the mill lash list. Swapping cult marines for CSM and some vindis for oblits doesn't suddenly make it 'gunline'. Infact the 9 oblit variety is much more stand and shoot gunline imo, even without a couple of heavy weapon toting CSM.

1500 is also pretty tight as far as gunlines go, but it is doable. If I had to make a gunline CSM at that point level, I'd go with something like this, or some varaition there of.

Lash Sorcerer
Lash Sorcerer

5 man Noise Marine, Blastmaster
^Rhino w/ Havoc
5 man Noise Marine, Blastmaster
^Rhino w/ Havoc
5 man Noise Marine, Blastmaster
^Rhino w/ Havoc
5 man Noise Marine, Blastmaster, Doom Siren
^Rhino w/ Havoc

2x Oblits
2x Oblits
2x Oblits

Not saying this is better, just more gunline

Put some raptors, a DP and a defiler and that's pretty much my list.

my Oblits and Defiler, Noise marines cover up a gunline, my Raptors strike down a weak link. *Scouts in a marine army or anything outflanking*

Jihallah wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:

darkkt wrote:Alternatively, if you are looking for cheaper and non-moving, If I recall you dont have to give them a sorcerer, saving you 60+ points.

You recall incorrectly. A base squad is Sorcerer and 4 Thousand Sons.

(you missed he also was putting 2 HW on a CSM squad )

Ahhhh - I hate not having a Codex at work! Thanks for the corrections guys.

Gotta say Im really interested in these lists - got a mate who will be buying the Nids codex as soon as its out, so Im sure I'll be using these techniques & tactics shortly!

A couple of questions - how much extra value do you find in having squad sizes up to 20, and does anyone else use Rhinos as traffic funnels - directing the flow of where your opponent goes? Ive found it really effective against nids...

Alright, thanks for posting this, but I have to say there are a few problems.

First, the entire list is based around the enemy being within 24". Right now you have 6 guns spread across 4 units (+ whatever havoc launchers you have) that can shoot more than 24". This simply isnt enough firepower. None have any chance of taking a LR down aside from the 1 squad of oblits (still small % chance).

Lash is a waste in any case where the enemy doesnt come within those 24", or they send a tank/dread up.

------------
If an army wants to sit back and shoot, theyll outrange you. Lets take a look at each of the main armies:

Daemons - This list would actually work pretty well against them. I think this is the #1 army this list has an advantage over. 5+ invul save means more shots the better.

Eldar - Will smash this list. Warwalkers with their scatter lasers will destroy infantry squads. Pathfinders will have a field day. Wave Serpents will have little to fear turboboosting to your side of the board. Missles will bounce off of them. Plasma is more likely to hurt you than him. I cant see a half decent Eldar list losing here.

Imperial Guard - Dear god....

Necrons - Will just get back up. Destroyers will be having a great time. Monoliths will have nothing to worry about. Youll never beat an army with what is essentially FNP at a range like this. Gotta get in there and sweep 'em up.

Orks - Might get beaten up bad. This list has both disadvantages and advantages over the more standard list, but orks should get hit pretty hard against chaos regardless. One major problem that makes this list worse against them would be lootas completely outranging you. 1 squad will be shooting 30 shots on average at S7 from 48" away. Cant sit back against that the whole game.

Wolves - I think this list would do pretty good. Force them to come to you while weakening them, and make up for the *shudder* weaker CSM over the GHs.

SMs - Dont want you to be in CC with them, so youre playing on their terms. Speaking of terms, terminators will still out CC you, and droppods will only be more effective with your CSM out of their transports.

Tau - Outrange you all around. Good luck.

Tyranids - Garbage regardless. MCs will be harder to take down with this list though. No fists means no chance in CC.


Honestly, I can only see Wolves and Daemons being easier to play against, mainly because theyre CC oriented. In most cases though, people will want an all arounder list to fight off anything that comes their way.

Night Lords wrote:a lot of good points.

Yeah, it was list I tossed together on the spot. We have the technology! We can make him better! Predators and Defilers give us the range we'll need. I think we'll be fine on anti-infantry from Noise Marines.

darkkt wrote:A couple of questions - how much extra value do you find in having squad sizes up to 20, and does anyone else use Rhinos as traffic funnels - directing the flow of where your opponent goes? Ive found it really effective against nids...

No, 20 man squad sizes are detrimental. You can't ride in your Rhino and you don't get any extra weapons for it. Rhinos are great funnels, but they also restrict your line of fire.

Why don't you just use Space Wolves to create your chaos gunline?

Long Fangs with 5 Missiles x3 = 420 points
Razorbacks with las/plas = 70 points x4 = 280 pts
Typhoons with multimelta = 100 points x3 = 300 pts

That's 1000 points with 3 lascannons, 3 T/L plasma, 21 missiles, and 3 multimeltas.

It has about the same amount of overall firepower as your list, plus roughly 20 missile launchers. Throw in a couple Marine squads plus a "Sorceror" and you're rocking monstrous S7-8 firepower with token S9 and melta.

Again, Im intrigued by the idea. Youre right, a lot of my points were specifically related to your list. I think the way to make this work, and not have better alternatives in SMs, SWs, etc. would be to use the Chaos exclusive units like a defiler. The problem with preds, as much as I love them, is that if youre going to play gunline you can get them for SMs for less points.

Night Lords wrote:The problem with preds, as much as I love them, is that if youre going to play gunline you can get them for SMs for less points.

Bingo. You just have too many (all) of your heavy weapons fighting for 3 slots because the Chaos Codex seems to believe that no heavy weapons should exist outside of Heavy FOC slots. Without viable Fast Attack or Elite gun toters on par with SM/SW you are stuck with Counts-As or a gimped army.

As true as that is Sourclams, humour me. Think within the confines of the Chaos Space Codex, as we aren't getting a new one for a while.

By the way: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDaKzQNlMFw&feature=related
The SM and Space Wolve codicies are the 4th dimension. I'm a 3 dimensional object.

Chaos Space Marine Chose and Havocs are excellent for gun lines as they get maximum number of specials with no minimum squad size.


So you can have

6 Havocs w/ 4 Meltaguns riding around in a rhino or

6 Chosen w/ 5 Meltaguns riding around in a rhino.

The issue with them is that they don't score, and you get simulate a decent portion of that firepower on CSM troops.

Chosen do do special weapons in rhinos a bit better IMO.