Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

If I was going to convert a winged Hive Tyrant starting now, I'd say forget that large metal monstrosity. Even though it looks cool, it's a pain to assemble and keep from harm and it weighs a lot. I'd get some plastic wings and convert a new plastic Trygon to be my winged Hive Tyrant.

I've been pretty happy with the last few codecii and I'm sure that this one will be fine and balanced too but damn, based on these rumours alone the nid ist looks unbelievably scary.

tons of MC's available including troop MC's! poisonous hormies, nasty shooting options, spawning extra troop choices, drop pods that can fight in cc and have decent shooting capability and those psychic powers. Wow!

I keep waiting for the other shoe to drop but I can't figure out what it will be. Presumably it will be pts. If the 200-ish pts for carnies, trygons and tyrannofexes is true and the upgrades for tyrants are all in the 30-60pts range then MC's will be hard as nails but possibly very overcosted. But then guants are much cheaper? If guants are cheap and MC's waaay expensive then it looks like we're returning to armies that need big bugs, little bigs and middling bugs to win. Tat's fine by me as it looks the best on the table and matches the fluff much better.

Yet crucially the option for a nidzilla, stealer shock or mycetic spore army is still there. There's also potential for a very nasty move and shoot army based around middle sized nids (hive guard, warrior troops, carnies/tyrannofexes for heavies) and a tricksy army (ymargl steaers and standard stealers, lictors, trygons helping raveners to enter play). I love that the 5th ed dexes so far have allowed widely divergent builds. They won't all be as powerful obviously but that they exist is good.

Don't worry about it. Every time a new list comes out people read the rumours and panic that there's some "game-breaking" new thing(s) in it, and every time a new list comes out we see that such panic was unjustified. Don't count chickens before they hatch. So I have to echo the sentiment that the last few (okay, the last five) army lists have been good work and look forward to the latest addition to the new golden era that is 5th edition.

The monstrous creatures won't be any harder than they are now. As a matter of fact, seeing as how their aren't any sort of profile changing biomorphs, the monstrous creatures got more expensive but are easier to kill then ever. Their is also the often corroborated rumor that spinegaunts and termagants have literally changed places, in that spinegaunts are now the nastier, more expensive shooty gaunt and termagants are now the cheaper, weaker variant. It's one of the most blatant examples of "well, everyone used that last edition, and we want to sell more models, so lets change that, screw the veterans" situations I've ever seen.

The little guys are dirt cheap so you can have lots of them , conversely mid sized guys have a midrange cost , big guys have a big cost.


It balances out. You can have 5 or 6 monstrous creatures and still field 90 little guys.

That doesn't really excuse the fact that we are going to end up paying land raider/monolith points costs for Monstrous creatures that get smoked by plasma weapons on a regular basis.

But that will be balanced out by lesser points for everything else. Keep in mind that, as many others have pointed out, the new codex has not yet been seen. Remember the lead up to guard and space wolves, we had a good idea of what was in them, but there were still some surprises.

If the Guard codex showed anything it was that Cruddance does indeed understand the 5th edition mechanics better than some of the other game developers at GW. I think that tyranids will not be a game breaker, nor wlll it be bunk. I feel based of what we have heard that like guard it will be different from what we have seen before for that army, but fit within the confines of the game better than what we had seen before.

It doesn't really work that way, unfortunately. If you had a very limited set of models to take, you could get away with the expensive vs. cheap balancing theory. As it is, constructing the codex that way leaves you with some units that are overcosted and some that are undercosted. People will tend to spam the latter and forget the former exist. I'm not going to make a call either way until I see the codex, but it's sounding to me like Tyranid monstrous creatures got seriously shafted. I hope that is not the case.

Looking at the rumours, I would like to offer a few tentative ideas about what the new Tyranid Meta will lookk like.

If the Toxin Sacks=4+ Poison is true, and not particularily expensive, I could see people loading all of their non-monstrous CC units with them.

Thanks to spore podding, I think Nidzilla will see a big shift, more towards Drop troops, Tervigons and Termagants.

The Hive Gaurd will likely show up in a lot of armies. I am not saying Dakka 'Fex awesome, but for 50-60 points, the spray of S8 sot they could provide is... Formidable.

Well, with Hormagaunts losing the fast charge, we likely won't see toxin sacks taken on them. Warriors aren't going to be fast enough to use them unless you pod them.

Dammit, it's like they intentionally slowed down the whole army and then dangled spore pods at the end of the book with a gleam in their eye and a snicker on their breath as they say, without words, "you need this". And by god, we need it. We need it SO BAD.

Cue 6 years of their not being a spore pod model. Then GW will release a spore pod model halfway through next edition. Everyone will buy half a dozen of them. The next Tyranid book will make them illegal.

Well, hopefully there are a few options for fast synapse besides the Flyrant. How does the Alpha Trygon move? Is it a beast? Or have just fleet?

About time they re-did them.

How does removing just Hormagaunt's Fast Charge slow down the whole army, especially when they gave them Quick to replace it?

MilkmanAl wrote:It doesn't really work that way, unfortunately. If you had a very limited set of models to take, you could get away with the expensive vs. cheap balancing theory. As it is, constructing the codex that way leaves you with some units that are overcosted and some that are undercosted. People will tend to spam the latter and forget the former exist. I'm not going to make a call either way until I see the codex, but it's sounding to me like Tyranid monstrous creatures got seriously shafted. I hope that is not the case.

Not necessarily. Great value for pts is one thing and most lists spam the stuff that is great value for pts but you also have to look at the overall tools a list needs to win.

Every list needs anti-tank, anti-infantry, some strategy for assault, some strategy for objectives, etc. If the only option in your list for anti-tank is good but very expensive to the pts of being overcosted you'll still take it because you need good anti-tank i.e. sisters and exorcists, grey knights and land raiders. I can see zoanthropes and tyrannofexes falling into this category.

Similarly stuff that is great for their pts might not get used if they do something that other stuff in the army does better even if its less competitively priced i.e. whirlwinds for marines, bloodclaws for space wolves. I can see biovores, pyrovores, carnifexes and gargoyles falling into this trap.

I do predict hive guard in every list since it solves a problem nids have otherwise, how to stop transports.

Basicaly as I see it, big critters and some middle critters kill enemy infantry - (fexes, stealers, trygon, tyrant, raveners, warriors)
hive guard kill troops at range
big monsters kill heavy tanks
little critters kill big monsters (hormies with poison sacs)

Bravelybravesirrobin...I think you are missing a key point. Tyranids have always had trouble breaching armour. The job seems to have been made easier with this codex, but we now have to pay a lot more points, so it may be just as unreliable as ever. Losing immunity to ID also doesn't help with this.

That said we haven't seen the full picture yet so I can't wait to get my hands on the codex and see it without rumours (this saturday or next monday it looks like). It's in our nature to feel uncomfortable about the new releases "this is too expensive", "that's been nerfed to hell", but in reality I just think it's the fact that this codex has been completely re-done to a point where players feel it's unrecognizable. There's always gonna be tension in situations like this.

People are too obsessed with blowing up vehicles with ginormous weapons. Lots of S8 shots against a Land Raider is a bet I'm willing to take, and S7 shots against transports is usually a death sentence, as my CSM termies with reaper autocannons have proven. Lots of attacks with a not-so-great weapon in my experience is more dependable than a single attack with that sexy wonder-gun. That being said, I think that my Warriors will be maxed for close combat and drop in, while my Venomthrope-shrouded Carnifexes will rush forward to smash anything they can. I confidently predict much fun will be had. Now if I could just decide on a color scheme.

Yeah I forgot to mention scything talons allowing the re-rolls. Definately a nice perk and less reliance on big guns. I personally prefer charging my fexes into units than sitting at the back taking pot shots at tanks.

Its a more fulffy use of the fex too

Railguns wrote:Well, with Hormagaunts losing the fast charge, we likely won't see toxin sacks taken on them.

If you meant the complete opposite of that, I agree with you.

The fact that warriors are no longer immune to instant death really hurts. I’m also very disappointed in the big points cost increase for Carnifexes.

I know these are just rumors and we haven’t seen the Codex but here are my thoughts on new army lists:

Completely ignore taking Synapses creatures. Yes, you heard me, forget Synapse. All the real tactically important moves will be made by your MC’s such as fexs, Trygon, Hive Guard, etc. The rest of the army will fail LD tests and either shoot at the nearest enemy or charge the nearest enemy asap. All your little critters will be like a wind up toys, point them in the right direction and let ‘em rip. At 6pts a piece, Hormaguants will be an awesome swarm. As they fail LD test, they will immediately push 2d6 towards enemy lines. Coupled with run moves in the shooting phases, they’ll be hitting the enemy on turn two.

Of course this may all change when I finally see the rules…

(Edited for L33T spelling)

gorgon wrote:

Railguns wrote:Well, with Hormagaunts losing the fast charge, we likely won't see toxin sacks taken on them.

If you meant the complete opposite of that, I agree with you.

QFT, hasnt it already been pointed out how good hormies with toxin sacs will be? We're talking plaguebearers on steroids with bargain basement prices here. If I can get hormagaunts with toxin for 7-8 points per model, you better believe I'll have at least 60 of them in my army.

Umm where does it say the IB affects how fall back moves are resolved? As far as we know fall back is still as now for standard morale failures. Also anyone familiar with 3.5 bezerkers knows rage is exploitable by your opponent. Also those non synapse MCs may still be subject to IB. Finally we still don't know if units under IB can still score.

Don't forget you can carry that Plaguebearer analogy one step further by having a Tervigon give everything FNP. The Tervigon is probably the unit I'm most interested in seeing full rules for. If the "heavy losses" drawback turns out to be not so bad, the stuff he spawns will make up for it and leave you with a 150-ish point MC that makes your swarm a serious pain in the butt to kill. A Tyrant giving everything Preferred Enemy might be a nice touch, too.

winterman wrote:Umm where does it say the IB affects how fall back moves are resolved? As far as we know fall back is still as now for standard morale failures. Also anyone familiar with 3.5 bezerkers knows rage is exploitable by your opponent. Also those non synapse MCs may still be subject to IB. Finally we still don't know if units under IB can still score.

Non MC or Synapse creatures are classified as a hunter or lurker. When IB takes effect, hunters move 2d6 towards the nearest enemy and must assault if possible. Lurkers will move towards nearest cover and shoot nearest enemy.

What if hormies are lurkers?

They aren't. That would be silly; they have no guns.

thanatos67 wrote:QFT, hasnt it already been pointed out how good hormies with toxin sacs will be? We're talking plaguebearers on steroids with bargain basement prices here. If I can get hormagaunts with toxin for 7-8 points per model, you better believe I'll have at least 60 of them in my army.

And slap adrenal glands and toxin sacs on them (granted, that's kinda pricey on a fragile platform) and you'll be rerolling failed wounds vs. T4 on the charge. With a Tyrant nearby, you could be rerolling failed hits and failed wounds.

Not really saying this is the best/only idea for fielding them...just that some of these h2h biomorphs and buffs really start to add up once you stack them. Genestealer with toxin sacs would reroll failed wounds vs. T4 with rending all the time. Nice.

At 2 pts per model, poison might be overkill on hormies at times, though. I wonder if the approach for horde play will be a mix of larger, cheaper units and some smaller "assassin" units with poison, etc. for taking down MCs and other high T targets.

im not worried about IB because I'll probably have 2 tyrants with 3 guard running up the table. Also still dont know what all gives synapse, what if the zoey or hive guard give it? or the alpha trygon?

you never needed alot of synapse for it to work, and now it just seems like more units than ever will be able to keep the little critters in check

winterman wrote:Umm where does it say the IB affects how fall back moves are resolved? As far as we know fall back is still as now for standard morale failures. Also anyone familiar with 3.5 bezerkers knows rage is exploitable by your opponent. Also those non synapse MCs may still be subject to IB. Finally we still don't know if units under IB can still score.

my understanding from reading the rumors here and at warseer before i stopped checking there (due to the "whoa is me and my hive world" drama) is that IB affects your "normal" movement/behavior. you check for synapse at the begining of your turn and, if you're not in, you follow the rules written for the entry (shoot or move/assault the closest). i didn't hear anything about it affecting fall back. as for the last part, i'd be shocked if they couldn't score just because they're out of synapse. that would be something finally worth complaining about as opposed to all the whining about a relatively balanced codex.

Could be a weak point in the list.