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On one hand it might explain why there's Synapse available in nearly all slots in the list.

On the other hand, should Tyranid players be taking a turn to gnash their teeth at this latest insult and injury from that most villanous of organizations, Cobr...GW?

gorgon wrote:

thanatos67 wrote:At 2 pts per model, poison might be overkill on hormies at times, though. I wonder if the approach for horde play will be a mix of larger, cheaper units and some smaller "assassin" units with poison, etc. for taking down MCs and other high T targets.

That is going to be the way I run at least, you need to choose between the big "gaunt pooper" MC babysitting your little guys or just having a cheaper wall of wounds in front of them in the form of gaunts or unupgraded hormies.

I was up late last night with the rumors on my screen and the old codex in my lap.... After looking back and forth to see what upgrades units got, and what cost increases were I was pretty happily surprised to see that the cost increase is almost universally justified. I was also shocked to find that I am already coming up with lists, some of which maintain a surprisingly robust amount of shooting. They are 'zilla lists, and they are just as flush with MCs and even more hurty in CC as the old 4th edition lists.

Something like this... I call this the 'no need to freak out about fex cost' army.

hive tyrant venom cannon 160ish
2x tyrant guard 120ish

3x hive guard 150ish
3x hive guard 150ish
3x zoanthropes 180ish

10x termagants 50ish
10x termagants 50ish
tervigon with FNP 140ish
tervigon with FNP 140ish

9 spore mines 90ish

carnifex with venom cannon 180ish
carnifex with venom cannon 180ish
carnifex with venom cannon 180ish


Guys... that is a 1750ish army... four strength 9 small blasts, three 12" plasma cannons, three strength 10 shots (or 6/3 blasts), and twelve strength 8 BS4 shots. It starts with 4 scoring units, but will almost certainly create 3 or 4 more. In objective games the termagants can get FNP, or the hive guard/zoanthropes or any of the MCs can get it as well.

6 MCs. Look like a familiar number? So what is different? Well, the carnifex have re-roll 1s, 5 attacks, and a plasma cannon, the hive tyrant has an ability that reduces many units BS and WS to 1, and more attacks and he reduces enemy initiative to 1. The termagants have 18" range strength 4 guns, the 9 spore mines land in the enemy deployment zone before they even get to deploy, jacking up their deployment strategy, you have a ridiculous amount of anti-transport that you didn't even have before...

After totalling up all of the new things the fex gets... plasma cannon, +2 initiative, +2 attacks, starts with re-rolls to all misses, I'm just not seeing this massive overcost. If you want the old cheap fex, take the tervigon, and if you want a hybrid god-fex sniper-fex, well, for around 180 points you can have it.

I mean I came up with this list in 5 minutes after really taking a look at rumors and remembering what the metagame is like... if this list looks hard... its probably because it is... and its zilla with carnifex.

I've got so many more thoughts on other units and ideas for mawloc/trygon/ravener based lists that i think are easily as hard as this example list, but I've got to get back to work. I am really really excited about this book.

Im liking the looks of the list shep
and from what ive read on here so far, seems like it could be a pretty damn effective build.

But i have a goal, and that goal is to make a nid army without a single MC (i may buy a try to paint up, but not use)

Just like the way that they can get back into swarms again.
The alpha warrior choice should be interesting as a HQ, guards and thropes take elites.
Gaunts en mass with some stealers and warriors (possibly 4/1/1 or even 3/1/2)

I may take a unit of gargs, simply for the new kit. (would be a shame not to take them i guess)
However, ravs and winged warriors take priority here.

Heavy: nothing lol, not much to pick from here


Just want to make a mid sized critter heavy army.
So a wave of gaunts with elte troops blended in to make use of cover.

I know this limits me on tank killing, but the lance from the thropes should offer a nice punch.
Will have to keep them out the way though, rather not lose them early on due to ID.

I think you could be ok with something super shooty...

alpha warrior with barbed strangler

3x hive guard
3x hive guard
3x zoanthropes

6x warriors with 4x deathspitters and 2x barbed stranglers
6x warriors with 4x deathspitters and 2x barbed stranglers
30x poisoned hormagaunts
30x poisoned hormagaunts

9x spore mines

3x biovores
3x biovores


Full mech will give you a problem, but this is WAY better than anything in the 4th ed dex that was "MC free"

warpcrafter wrote:People are too obsessed with blowing up vehicles with ginormous weapons. Lots of S8 shots against a Land Raider is a bet I'm willing to take

Well, to be faire, that is a bet you are going to lose. But and it is a big BUT, the meta game that has hurt nids in 5th isn't 250 point AV 14 LR, rolling up our flanks. It is the overabundance of undercosted transports that typically are in the AV 11- AV 12 range and can take the kind of punishement (thanks to new cover rules and damage tables) that would have killed a lang raider in 4rth. This is why Hive Guard are a potential God Send, because of thier numerous moderately high strength shots that ingnore cover and can thus put the odds more in a nids favor of wrecking transports.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Shep, I think you are trying too hard with the Zoes. I would exchange them for the venom thrope that grants cover.

That looks like a decent enough build shep, but im not really sold on the spores.
Just seems like something else could take on that role.

Aslong as the bio's havent changed from the pic earlier then i dont see a problem with them.

I am wondering though if its worth breaking apart the homs.

Rather than taking 2x30, is it work taking 4x15?
That way i can break apart and leave my self more option in assault, rather than having my units tied up in 2 assaults.

Also, if i go with 3x15 the points left over could be used for either upgrading the warriors unit size, or mixed with the points from the spores i could grab a unit of either ravs or winged warriors, simply to add a little more speed to the army.
Also, it would be nice to have a unit to support the horms against anything that may cause problems.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wyoming: I can see where shep is going with the thropes.
The high strength of thier shot is good enough, but with the lance rule it will make tank huting against armies like guard alot easier.
When they can lay down as many russ's as possible i want to take a unit that should in theory be popping 1-2 per turn. (doesent sound like much, but its better than they were before)

wyomingfox wrote:Shep, I think you are trying too hard with the Zoes. I would exchange them for the venom thrope that grants cover.

As much as I like cover... it isn't just the strength 10 lance, which is pretty fantastic, I like the ap3 small blast as well, but easily looked and more important to me is another source of shadow in the warp.

With just 1 hive tyrant, the fex list is just too vulnerable to JOTWW without them.

The venomthrope would be a lot cooler in the non-MC list I put up, but weakening that lists anti-tank for more survivability could be devastating.

And of course... its way too early to be making list tweaks

I was up late last night with the rumors on my screen and the old codex in my lap.... After looking back and forth to see what upgrades units got, and what cost increases were I was pretty happily surprised to see that the cost increase is almost universally justified.

I have to agree, the costs were done to curb min maxing but include boosts to help make the increase more palatable. I am not too happy with the costing of the termagaunt (gained 6" range and a bit better IB but lost fleet and move through cover and remained overocsted compared to other horde models) but I think the tervigon makes up for that.

hive tyrant venom cannon 160ish
2x tyrant guard 120ish

3x hive guard 150ish
3x hive guard 150ish
3x zoanthropes 180ish

10x termagants 50ish
10x termagants 50ish
tervigon with FNP 140ish
tervigon with FNP 140ish

9 spore mines 90ish

carnifex with venom cannon 180ish
carnifex with venom cannon 180ish
carnifex with venom cannon 180ish

Nice list. Came up with something similar as well, although I am wanting to get some more synergy with FnP and tyrant special rules via stealers or hormies.

Shep, i guess its a choice of the lesser of 2 evils mate.

Either:

A: Keep the anti-tank support from the guards and thropes.
Or
B: Take away a small part of that anti-tank to add in some portable cover.


I think it would be best to keep the list as it is for now, until i get a copy of the new dex in my hand i shouldnt really be picking into lists to any extent lol.

But all in all, i like where its gone with the new book.
Seems like the list building options are fun to play, yet remain varied and competative.
Also, the extra unit types / options should help out alot


So for now im going with a small - medium critter army (1,500 - 2,000)
After that i might go on to make a nidzilla army of the same points.
This allows me some nice options, and a good enough reason to start an apoc army at the same time lol.

Funny thing is, i just managed to dig out an old test model i painted up.
With a few bits of shading and highlighting it will work fine for me.

The Dreadnote wrote:They aren't. That would be silly; they have no guns.

And silly has stopped GW since when...?

If you just want to go aggro CC, hope to not fight land raiders or mobile mech.... this could be really aggressive and fun.

(I really need to know if ravs are strength 5 or not before I call this viable)

trygon alpha 250ish

10x stealers with broodlord 180ish
10x stealers with broodlord 180ish
5x stealers 75ish
5x stealers 75ish

4x raveners 160ish
4x raveners 160ish
3x raveners 120ish

trygon 200ish
mawloc 170ish
mawloc 170ish

I can't imagine this army would deploy on the table ever... its really just a demon army with nid models. But it could be effective. If those ravs are strength 5 with double scytals, they will destroy transports like crazy. If they are strength 4, then transport based armies will probably dismantle this list.

gorgon wrote:

thanatos67 wrote:QFT, hasnt it already been pointed out how good hormies with toxin sacs will be? We're talking plaguebearers on steroids with bargain basement prices here. If I can get hormagaunts with toxin for 7-8 points per model, you better believe I'll have at least 60 of them in my army.

And slap adrenal glands and toxin sacs on them (granted, that's kinda pricey on a fragile platform) and you'll be rerolling failed wounds vs. T4 on the charge. With a Tyrant nearby, you could be rerolling failed hits and failed wounds.

Not really saying this is the best/only idea for fielding them...just that some of these h2h biomorphs and buffs really start to add up once you stack them. Genestealer with toxin sacs would reroll failed wounds vs. T4 with rending all the time. Nice.

At 2 pts per model, poison might be overkill on hormies at times, though. I wonder if the approach for horde play will be a mix of larger, cheaper units and some smaller "assassin" units with poison, etc. for taking down MCs and other high T targets.

I think a key upgrade for hormies is +1 strength if it’s in the new codex. That would allow them to bust vehicles. With an extra 2d6 move on failed LD tests, running and re-rolling failed hits, SM’s players won’t be laughing when they see 15 horms clambering on top of their Predators.

If they are strength 4, then transport based armies will probably dismantle this list.

Ravs are S4 based on rumors (several posters say same states as warriors pretty much across the board), but they could be S5 via furious charge.

To me, Tervigons put a lot of pressure on other org chart categories just because they suck up so many Troops slots. And what's in those slots (Termagants or Tervigons) isn't particularly killy. They probably would work best in some kind of shooty army build.

@Shep -- FYI, I *think* Trygon Alphas aren't HQ, just synapse. Could be wrong, but I think that's the case.

Has anyone seen a confirmation or a denial of Lictors getting to assault when placed?

Kind of taking away a major ability of that unit kind of blows.

My only explanation for Lictors' ineptitude for the past 11 years is that one of them must have slashed Tom Kirby's tires.

The new army looks like a huge divergence from the last edition. I can't wait to start playing the new rules for zoanthropes. 3+ invulnerable s10 hit. Yeehaw!!!

Yeah the lictor hasn't really been any good since 2nd edition.

Lictors can't assault, but they are rumored to have a 2 shot S6 gun. Too bad it is rumored to be AP-, otherwise popping AV10 rear armor would be handy.

I think that Deathstalker whatever he is called Lictor can assault the turn it appears i don't know what its cost is though or anything else about it.

Seen it on Warseer but then they went and deleted all info for some reason.

So I guess you could take 1 of those and some Ymgarri Genestealers.

gorgon wrote:To me, Tervigons put a lot of pressure on other org chart categories just because they suck up so many Troops slots. And what's in those slots (Termagants or Tervigons) isn't particularly killy. They probably would work best in some kind of shooty army build.

@Shep -- FYI, I *think* Trygon Alphas aren't HQ, just synapse. Could be wrong, but I think that's the case.

Good points Gorgon... I see it the same way. Tervigon is for "nidzilla 2010" If you are going more aggressive, then you'll want MCs that don't fight like girls, and hormagaunts and stealers.

As to the alpha, if thats the case then one of those mawlocs probably has to upgrade to trygon... but the good news is that the army could take a drop podding hive tyrant with the 'outflank' power, and one of those genestealer units could become an outflanking hormagaunt unit.... and a +1 to reserves.

Hollismason wrote:Has anyone seen a confirmation or a denial of Lictors getting to assault when placed?

Kind of taking away a major ability of that unit kind of blows.

They can not assault, as per rumors. Doesn't look like they saved the lictor. It got cheaper and got more toys, but I dont see how its competitive with hive guard, zoanthropes and venomthropes.

winterman wrote:

If they are strength 4, then transport based armies will probably dismantle this list.

Ravs are S4 based on rumors (several posters say same states as warriors pretty much across the board), but they could be S5 via furious charge.

Ah yes, they'd have those adrenal glands wouldn't they. that makes them amazingly awesome, but probably puts them a bit more expensive than I was guessing. Man raveners really are devastating, while being so freakishly fragile. tough unit to balance. You'll really have to pressure your opponents strength 8+ weapons if you want them to live. I guess its good that they synergize with trygons then heh.

But 5 strength 5 re-rollable attacks off of a 18+D6" charge per model just says "good bye" to chimeras. (reaches for meltagun)

Question: if a unit that Hunts falls forward due to instinctive behaviour is it still able to make its fleet move? If so then there really is very little loss of speed, you just have to be a little more canny.

Because it was asked and I don't know if it's basic rumor knowledge: Genestealers are 14 points per model.

Greets
Schepp himself

I think the thing that excites me most is bio plasma becoming a ranged attack. every time i read a fluff piece on a carnifex spitting on a tank and messing it up i cried inside.

Can anyone confirm or deny that boneswords ignore armor saves? I've seen it mentioned in some rumors but not others and depending on cost could make warriors much more killy than they are.

@ shep - the problem is though once they charge in and pop that chimera they are going to get smoked by the vet squad that piles out bristling with melta's.

wyomingfox wrote:

warpcrafter wrote:People are too obsessed with blowing up vehicles with ginormous weapons. Lots of S8 shots against a Land Raider is a bet I'm willing to take

Well, to be faire, that is a bet you are going to lose. But and it is a big BUT, the meta game that has hurt nids in 5th isn't 250 point AV 14 LR, rolling up our flanks. It is the overabundance of undercosted transports that typically are in the AV 11- AV 12 range and can take the kind of punishement (thanks to new cover rules and damage tables) that would have killed a lang raider in 4rth. This is why Hive Guard are a potential God Send, because of thier numerous moderately high strength shots that ingnore cover and can thus put the odds more in a nids favor of wrecking transports.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Shep, I think you are trying too hard with the Zoes. I would exchange them for the venom thrope that grants cover.

It seems to work pretty well for my Deffkoptas armed with twin-linked rokkit launchers. They once killed a wraithlord and half a wraithguard unit in two turns.

But wraithlords aren't AV 14 vehicles .

Again, don't get me wrong, I like Hive Guard, I was just saying don't expect them to take LR on.

Khornatedemon wrote:I think the thing that excites me most is bio plasma becoming a ranged attack. every time i read a fluff piece on a carnifex spitting on a tank and messing it up i cried inside.

Of course, Carnifexes are *supposed* to have bioplasma as their ranged attacks.

The newer "heavy" bio-guns are an abomination, IMO.

Bioplasma all the way!

JD21290 wrote:I am wondering though if its worth breaking apart the homs.
Rather than taking 2x30, is it work taking 4x15?
That way i can break apart and leave my self more option in assault, rather than having my units tied up in 2 assaults.

Well, I guess the question I would ask myself is how are 15 model hormies squads with the strength upgrade doing currently (when they are used that is ). At T3 and 6+ save, they usually lose 3-5 models with any kind of decent round of shooting (cover save or not). Then when they reach combat they usually lost due to twin fatalities of low T and 6+ armour. This results in more fearless wounds, which results in small hormie squads disapearing doubly quick, rather than tarpitting in 3rd and 4rth.

Granted in this new codex you are picking up 8% more hits thanks to rerolling 1's (assuming enemy is WS 4) but that isn't going to carry too much weight due to your smaller (and depleted) squad size. The venom upgrade will be a wash compared to the strength upgrade in a majority of cases (most unts in the game are T3-4). Initiative 5 is a boon but they still don't have frags, which means that there is a decent likelyhood you will be going last (at least 25% seeing as that is how much cover is on the table). Dropping to WS 3 means that your opponent will be hitting you back more which is pretty bad all around given hormies T3 and 6+ armour. So I feel (IMO) that small guant swarms are going to die just as fast with this codex as they would in our current codex.

BUT, now hormies are 1/2 the cost, (not under costed mind you LOL...not when you got 8 pt wolves, 15 pt GH, 16 pt Blood Letters, 40 pt SS/TH termies) you can buy 2X as many and double your squad size. This will increase the odds that a critical mass of hormies make it into CC and increase the odds that the squad wins the combat and thus avoids losing CC and thus avoids fearless wounds.

Now you would rightly suggest that you could just combi-assault 2 small units...but large squads also protect you from being assaulted as well. Most CC units probably wouldn't think twice about rushing a 15 model squad of hormies...they would think twice about charging a 30 man squad though.

Just some thoughts *shrugs*

JD21290 wrote:Wyoming: I can see where shep is going with the thropes. The high strength of thier shot is good enough, but with the lance rule it will make tank huting against armies like guard alot easier.
When they can lay down as many russ's as possible i want to take a unit that should in theory be popping 1-2 per turn. (doesent sound like much, but its better than they were before)

Well, I don't think the lance ability will be that good (unless you are talking about running 9 Zoes). For one your poor range means at the least you should lose 1-2 round of shooting (and if you spore pod them you are still likely looking at losing 1-2 rounds ). Then you face the odds.

You got 4 chances out of 36 of failing your psychic test. 50% of failing your shooting test. 33% chance of failing to penetrate. 66% of failing to destroy...or roughly a 10% per Zoe per round of popping that LR or Leman Russ. So at 3 Zoes you statistically, and on average, will be popping 1 AV 14 tank in ever 3 rounds of shooting. This assumes that they can't find/create cover. If I factor in cover, you are spotting a 1 in every 6 rounds...bad odds. And unless you use weighted dice, odds will eventually win .

I think the best way to take AV 14 out will be to face beat them with fast MC. Not my preferred method of attack in 5th but you do what you need to do.

So IMO don't take them for popping AV 14, take them for something else. Shep is taking them for the plasma cannon hybrid plus shadow in the warp (they get shadow in the warp too?). Can't say I would pay 60+ points for a plasma cannon, and with alot of psychers having ungodly high leadership 10, I don't know how powerfull Shadow in the Warp is for stopping powers like JOTWW (assuming that it is similar to current but with diminished range). But together, maybe I would...like in 2012 to herald the end of the world ?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

winterman wrote:Lictors can't assault, but they are rumored to have a 2 shot S6 gun. Too bad it is rumored to be AP-, otherwise popping AV10 rear armor would be handy.

Yeah, it really seams that they did thier homework with this codex in the play testing stage and made sure that there was as few rules one could exploit as possible. That's probably a good thing, just too bad they didn't start doing it sooner. Maybe the book will be free from the usual editing errors...I can dream right!

Shadow in the Warp that causes perils tests -as the new version is rumored to - is quite a lot more useful than it used to be. It pushes even LD 10 psykers to failing their powers on an average roll and increases the chance of taking a wound from 1/18 to around 1/7. That's a nice improvement, especially if you're up against Rune Priest spam.