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Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





winterman wrote:Also, there's a rumor that barbed stranglers gained rending in exchange for the loss of pinning and -2S. Can anyone confirm this? I wouldn't be as hasty to paint up more scytals for my carnifexes if true.
I heard the same rumour, but no one else has confirmed it. It appears Carnifex can only have one big gun though.

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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Hmm, devourer is a lot better on small bugs.

I'm tempted to mutilate my Spingegaunts and replace them with Devs, though I imagine that's quite pricy.

2 Dakkafexes on Carnies sounds impressive. Even without living ammo (and assume they aren't twin-linked) it's 12 shots per 'fex, up from 8. Assuming reroll that makes it pretty nice weapon. 'Tis why walking dakkarants are popular.

--The whole concept of government granted and government regulated 'permits' and the accompanying government mandate for government approved firearms 'training' prior to being blessed by government with the privilege to carry arms in a government approved and regulated manner, flies directly in the face of the fundamental right to keep and bear arms.

“The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government.”


 
   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

winterman wrote:Yeah BS4 zoey's make me happy. Then again no gunfexes make me sad.

Did anybody NOT see gunfexes being nuked?

Or Zoey's being better?

   
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Tunneling Trygon





The House that Peterbilt

Did anybody NOT see gunfexes being nuked?
Never said I was surprised. I said I was sad (and only really a little bit). I figured more likely they'd be made much less viable or ideal, but not illegal. Not a big thing imo though. I think most gunfex owners were resigned a long time ago toward refitting them.

Or Zoey's being better?

Previous rumors already had them cheaper and with a stronger set of attacks. So they were already better as rumored. BS4 just makes them waaay better (hence being happy and maybe even a bit surprised).

snoogums: "Just because something is not relavant doesn't mean it goes away completely."

Iorek: "Snoogums, you're right. Your arguments are irrelevant, and they sure as heck aren't going away." 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Whorelando, FL

While the zoey's gun is better, I think they are still fragile. I think they are an okay unit. Range is a problem and getting shut down by hoods can be a problem still. The increased BS is a marked improvement though...at least they have a better chance to hit now. Looks like people will be putting their units in pods now for the alpha strike.

   
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Longtime Dakkanaut






Los Angeles, CA

Fateweaver wrote:Hmm, devourer is a lot better on small bugs.

I'm tempted to mutilate my Spingegaunts and replace them with Devs, though I imagine that's quite pricy.

2 Dakkafexes on Carnies sounds impressive. Even without living ammo (and assume they aren't twin-linked) it's 12 shots per 'fex, up from 8. Assuming reroll that makes it pretty nice weapon. 'Tis why walking dakkarants are popular.


Fexes are interesting, because of free plasma cannon. I doesn't seem economical to me to put anything more than one set of guns on him, and when you get close enough, unload with the plasma cannon and whatever gun set you choose (big devourer, big deathspitter, big barbed strangler, big venom cannon). This way you can either keep the free 1's re-roll, or plump for crushing claws.

I might be wrong. Having gun options might make them even more flexible in a shooty/counter cc role.

I realize I might be alone in this, but i like the 'forced' CC buff we get on our fexes. Now your dakka fex is more expensive, but... it shoots better, has the equivalent of 8 arms instead of 4, has a plasma cannon, and can get to I3 on the charge. Plump for furious charge, and he can cut through thunderwolves and dreadnoughts with ease.

As for the termagant thing... no offense to the people going out and digging up rumors, but there isn't two rumors on termagants that match up.... so far we have

5 points gets a fleshborer

fleshborer has been rumored to be....

12" S3 ap- assault 2
12" S4 ap5 assault 1
18" S4 ap5 assault 1

I'd like to think its the third one, but every site has a different version of the gun.

Spinefists fortunately have a consensus, although i am not 100% positive of the reports.

18" S4 ap5 assault X, twin-linked

And the devourers have been reported as multiple gun profiles as well. And have been rumored to be the same cost as fleshborers, or more expensive than fleshborers...

12" S5 ap- assault 1
?? S5 ap?? assault 3


As I am painting up nids for a tale of many gamers style campaign, what I have been wanting more than anything is a complete picture statline on the basic troop choices. i know what their base cost is for each troop. Other than for the hormagaunt, i don't know what that base cost entails. For the hormagaunt, how much is poison? How much is furious charge? For the termagant, what do the guns actually do? and what do each of the gun upgrades actually cost? And for genestealers, what upgrades can they actually buy, and at what cost?

I'm behind on painting and building, and I'm dying to get going with confidence.

Please check out my current project blog

Feel free to PM me to talk about your list ideas....

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Tunneling Trygon





The House that Peterbilt

As I am painting up nids for a tale of many gamers style campaign, what I have been wanting more than anything is a complete picture statline on the basic troop choices.

Agreed. I have spinegaunts or termagaunts to paint for ConquestNW in January and I want to know which ones are worth taking in the new dex. The weapon stats for them have been all over the fricken map.

snoogums: "Just because something is not relavant doesn't mean it goes away completely."

Iorek: "Snoogums, you're right. Your arguments are irrelevant, and they sure as heck aren't going away." 
   
Made in gb
Horrific Hive Tyrant





London (work) / Pompey (live, from time to time)

Funnily enough, i just got a test mini finished for my winter themed nids
Only a horm, but it will do for now.

also dug out what was left of my last army:

3 metal ravs (claws instead of talons)
30 horms
15 terms
3 lictors
1 broken thrope


I think it will be a case of fix em up and paint em if i need em.

Suffused with the dying memories of Sanguinus, the warriors of the Death Company seek only one thing: death in battle fighting against the enemies of the Emperor.  
   
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The New Miss Macross!





Deep Frier of Mount Doom

it was said that carnies have to all take the same loadouts in broods but is the same true of other multiwound creatures like zoanthropes and warriors? i'm just hoping GW learned their lesson from nob bikers in regards to that stupid and useless rule.
   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

OK, thanks, winterman.

Personally, I was expecting Fexes to lose access to the uber guns entirely (Venom Cannon, in particular).

IMO, Zos should have gone BS4 as soon as they became Eldar-linked in the Fluff.

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




It appears that 'Nid assault has gotten better overall. Warriors are rumored at 30 pts with talons and devourer, a 3rd wound and an improved save. Sure they are S8 magnets but I am sort of happy to see EW tapering off. Seems as if every army out there going back to the current CSM codex has it. Would have been a bonus to see the Tyrant get it but Tyrant has gotten better IMO.

The people bemoaning melta-spam IG. If they are close enough to fire off 2-4 melta gun shots than they will be assaulted (or the chimera they are in). Not to mention cover from the stuff in front. If you want to ensure melta is not going to auto-kill (and it won't as BS4 still misses on 1 and 2 and a 1 is possilbe on the to wound roll) put some gaunts in front. If a vet squad is going to shoot 4 melta guns at your warriors and then of course be forced to shoot it's lasguns at them which is a waste the gaunt squad in front will make those vets pay and with 4 melta guns being fired you will lose on average 2 warriors. A nearly 200 pt squad killing 60pts in warriors and then getting eaten by 100pts of gaunts (or less as I bet even 10 horms could eat 10 IG vets) seems like a fair trade off.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/12/16 19:15:15


--The whole concept of government granted and government regulated 'permits' and the accompanying government mandate for government approved firearms 'training' prior to being blessed by government with the privilege to carry arms in a government approved and regulated manner, flies directly in the face of the fundamental right to keep and bear arms.

“The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government.”


 
   
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Khorne Veteran Marine with Chain-Axe





San Diego.

Hey can someone point me to some more info on the Tervigon? What weapons does it have? Scything talons? any sort of bio plasma etc?

   
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Servoarm Flailing Magos





Alaska

Do you think that part of the stuff that went into this codex was intentionally meant to influence the metagame, to balance it out? Right now, the supreme special and heavy weapons being meltas, lascannons, etc, do you think this codex was meant to influence a shift to make plasma and heavy bolters useful choices again? It just seems too nerfed in some things.

I didn't like how the rumors of the barbed strangler were looking, so I just decided to put another pair of talons on both my fexes I have. I almost put a venom cannon on instead, but I thought the shift to CC would be a better bet.

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Longtime Dakkanaut






Los Angeles, CA

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:Do you think that part of the stuff that went into this codex was intentionally meant to influence the metagame, to balance it out? Right now, the supreme special and heavy weapons being meltas, lascannons, etc, do you think this codex was meant to influence a shift to make plasma and heavy bolters useful choices again? It just seems too nerfed in some things.

I didn't like how the rumors of the barbed strangler were looking, so I just decided to put another pair of talons on both my fexes I have. I almost put a venom cannon on instead, but I thought the shift to CC would be a better bet.


I was actually expecting more of a shift to be honest.

i was looking for warriors and raveners to get T5, which would, in essence make the entire army melta immune. I thought that this would definitely boost the plasma gun and further marginalize the meltagun. But with three wound T4 models, there is a strong case for continued melta usage.

In all truth, I think it is probably much wiser to have included melta vulnerable models in the nid book. If you make some armies only beatable by taking mass melta (land raider spam) and then have popular armies in the metagame that completely laugh off meltas, then you create rock paper scissors matchups. It isn't healthy game design.

As it stands I think I hate meltaguns enough to design my new nid lists as melta immune anyway. If i skip raveners and warriors, and stick to the rumored T5 hive guard, and T6 MCs, then everyone will be aching for more plasma when they vs. me.

On your fex. I think the naked dual scytal fex seems pretty interesting. But keep in mind that for pure CC options in heavy support, its hard to beat a mawloc, which is rumored to be a mere 15 points more than a naked fex. Its way too early for me to be preaching anything. But it looks to me like the fex is what you want, when you want shooty options abound, with excellent CC. If you just want to get into CC on turn 3 with something. Its hard to make an entrance more spectacular than the mawloc "Excuse me gentleman, can you hold this pie plate and then move out of the way? Also, I'm going to charge you next turn"

Please check out my current project blog

Feel free to PM me to talk about your list ideas....

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Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:Do you think that part of the stuff that went into this codex was intentionally meant to influence the metagame, to balance it out?

Unquestionably, but probably not exactly the way that you're phrasing it. As I see it, GW is refining how Nids look and play to give them a much stronger visual, CC presence. GW is aware of the metagame, in the sense that they've been tweaking Orks, SM, and Guard play.

But I'm doubtful that GW is going at the metagame itself in a scientific way, nor specifically to "balance" anything out per se. I just don't see GW being that focused and deliberate. I see GW's designers saying that Fexes are cool models, but players are taking them with too many big guns on the models, and not fighty enough, so they'll take some of those options away and recost the rest to strongly encourage players to take things that are more "correct".
____

Shep wrote:I was actually expecting more of a shift to be honest.

I think the naked dual scytal fex seems pretty interesting. But keep in mind that for pure CC options in heavy support, its hard to beat a mawloc, which is rumored to be a mere 15 points more than a naked fex.

I think GW may have learned that swinging the pendulum too hard causes too much angst, so they take a half step to where they want to go. Probably the next Nid Codex completes the swing to CC, just as the next Rulebook will complete the KP/Objectives shift.

The new Trygon and Pods are fantastic solutions to the Nid mobilty / presence issue. I think it's awesome and game-changing.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/12/16 20:03:26


   
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Servoarm Flailing Magos





Alaska

Hm. That makes more sense, the whole bit about taking half a step. And I agree that Pods help balance out the metagame in the sense that not every nid has to be fast or fleet to get into combat without dying.

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Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

Thematically, ALL Nids could be Fleet, and it wouldn't hurt the army one bit.

The problem is that, even being 100% Fleet, that won't solve the mobility / presence issue compared to cheapo Transports and Drop Pods.

That is why the Trygon and Spore Pod are so awesome. The make things happen *now*, rather than giving them free turns of shooting. Which is also why Nids are losing the long guns, specifically to discourage Nids from trying to get into any sort of shooting match.

   
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Fireknife Shas'el





Reedsburg, WI

JohnHwangDD wrote:Did anybody NOT see Zoey's being better?


To be fair, they had precedence

In regards to the gunfexes, I understand Winterman's pain as he had some awesome conversions that are beautifully painted. So far, I have lucked out. My two painted carnies, as well as my painted HT, have scytails and 1 heavy gun (which is the reason I made removeable gun toting mutants in the first place).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Shep wrote:If you just want to get into CC on turn 3 with something. Its hard to make an entrance more spectacular than the mawloc "Excuse me gentleman, can you hold this pie plate and then move out of the way? Also, I'm going to charge you next turn"


Or (if rumors hold up) the Trygon which at 15 points more than a Mawloc can assault the unit it deep strikes onto, rather than suffering a deepstrike misshap. Turn 2 belly flop onto a IG Leman Russ/Bascalisk/Collosus squad anyone.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2009/12/16 20:52:53


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Prescient Cryptek of Eternity





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Oooo! Oooo! Can Alpha Warriors get Wings?

 
   
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Cosmic Joe





Bulgaria

That would be delicious


Nosebiter wrote:
Codex Space Marine is renamed as Codex Counts As Because I Dont Like To Loose And Gw Hates My Army.
 
   
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Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM






I am greatly looking forward to the greater-daemon shredding squads of hormies with poison sacs.

very greatly

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Student Curious About Xenos




England

Shep wrote:
trygon 200ish
mawloc 170ish
mawloc 170ish
Shep wrote:

He-who-has-no-name
you are bang on. my friend got his Jan WD early and i had a good look at it. mawloc= 170pts and when it DSs you place large blast and everything touch take a S6 AP2 hit

Trygon=200pts

theres also a new biomorph that gargoyles have standard thats called blinding venom which means if you role a 6 to hit in cc you auto wound. and scyting talons mean you can re-role 1s to hit in cc.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/12/16 21:40:08


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Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw





Buzzard's Knob

So, they just had to get rid of WON and EW for Tyranids. This has triggered by pessimism gene again. These are the things that in my mind made them a distinct army. Between that and tripling the cost of Carnifexes, it seems that the monkeys have been attacking the typewriters again. I just might go Space Wolves after all.

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Pragmatic Primus Commanding Cult Forces






Southeastern PA, USA

After some initial shock, I think these rumors are getting gradually better as we learn more and start to get an idea of the potential synergies.

I think it's interesting how Cruddace approached buffing Tyranid CC. Instead of just boosting attacks or S across the board (spamming attacks being the way most armies approach things), Tyranids get poison, high initiatives and lots of rerolls. It's different, but still works within the existing system.

Regarding models, I really feel like I'm getting off easy compared to some. My fexes are magnetized, and I have a (un-?)healthy amount of Gaunts and Hormagaunts from my many years with the army. I even have a Trygon already. I'm probably picking up a plastic Trygon to be an Alpha or a conversion to another species. And of course I'm gonna be picking up 6 Hive Guards, LOL. Things could change as we learn more, but 2x3 Hive Guards and 1X3 Zoeys is SO looking like the default Elites build no matter what the rest of your army looks like...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/12/16 22:14:57


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Reedsburg, WI

Or you could play both like I do

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Fixture of Dakka



Chicago, Illinois

What happened to all the rumours they keep getting deleted its annoying.

I still havent found a confirmation on the Deathstalker it looks like it is the "assault" after placed Lictor with the genestealers that will definitely be 2 choice units to take in Drop Podding army along with the Trigon or Mawloc.


Does anyone know if they do get the Raveners get to assault out of the tunnel thing?

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Servoarm Flailing Magos





Alaska

I don't think the raveners would get to, but it is possible.

I still am waiting to find out what is the cosmetic differences between warriors and alphas, so I can make myself one!

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Jervis Johnson






Did I understand it correctly that Carnifexes can still buy two sets of TL Devourers, and that now they would have 12 twin-linked shots at S6? That's absolutely mental, but I guess if the cost is now 200 points per model then basically the power of the gun has nearly doubled and the price of the model has also nearly doubled, meaning since the wounds and other survivability didn't get any better the whole thing can still be considered nerfed.

It's still a nice gun to fire when you deep strike. You hit that AV11 or AV12 vehicle 9 times afterall and get a couple glancing/penetrating hits. Too bad one can get only three deep striking Carnifexes and that would mean no Trygons/Mawlocs at all. Additionally, if three Deep Striking Carnifexes cost 600 points and their Mycetic Spores something like 120 points altogether, it's easy to question their viability.

To me it sounds odd that a Carnifex costs that much without them being given 5 wounds and a 2+ save as standard.

The Devourers might be worth considering for walking Hive Tyrants, since the Venom Cannons etc. didn't seem all that impressive.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/12/17 01:12:02


 
   
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Blackclad Wayfarer





From England. Living in Shanghai

I'm personally thinking of a nice combo of trygon and mawloc accompanied by 2 broods of 15 hormagaunts in pods as well as a brood of cc warriors with alpha variant podding in also. If rumours are reasonably accurate this should be do-able in 1k. Not a bad little list.

I'm actually considering skipping carnifexes in all but the largest of battles, or until I can find a use for them. They seem to be religated to a heavy support gun slinger, which I don't actually like. Far more fluffy (and possibly more competitive) to have a load of stabby stuff than guns in a nid list.

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Trygons sound like a serious PITA in smaller games. Being able to magically appear in combat with something and wipe it out is pretty devastating when that thing is probably 1/5 your army. I think there are definitely some really fun things to be done with that ability plus the tunnel it leaves.
   
 
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