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I think this list is also good for KP based missions since I am fielding a low number of total units. Suppose with the current version of the list I field the assault terminators as one 10 man unit. That is a grand total of nine KPs:

2x HQ
1x Terminators
2x LRC
2x tactical squad
2x rhino

The HQ and terminators are hard to kill as are the LRCs. For every army out there that is equipped to kill landraiders there are just as many if not more that have a hard time at it. Orks and Nids immediately come to mind, Nids moreso than Orks but still your typical ork horde army does not have a lot of options. Sure a carnifex can trash armor but even with run I think a smart player can keep their landraiders out of their path.

G

***edited for spelling because this keyboard sucks

1 lance weapon isn't frightening, but a bunch of them are. And even though one lance isn't terribly frightening, they still bypass the resilience that AV14 offers. Then consider Guide as well (or twin linked at BS3 which has better odds of hitting than a normal BS4) and you're probably getting hit with 3-4 lances per turn. 9 hits from a lance weapon will average out to 1 dead LRC (1/3 of hits pen and then 1/3 of pens destroy) of so basiclly, they should open one up on turn 2 or turn 3 at the latest.

As for dropping Marneus, I agree he should go before Lysander, that str10 hammer is straight money. Which Generic HQ are you considering? The Orbital Strike seems like it can be a really nice feature for an army like this, especially to help in the horde matchup. At the same time, a Librarian can help you out against Lash, which will be a tough match (against dual lash you'll stop 1 of them each turn with the hood) and give you access to Gate of Infinity, which can be some very helpful mobility for the army given the tanks will definitely be the main attraction for enemy fire. chaplain makes your unit that much more deadly with the re-rolls in combat, but thats really his only exciting benefit. I'd probably test them all, but my initial reaction points towards a Librarian as the generic HQ of choice (Epistolary may be too expensive though I'm not sure you'll need to bother with him since you are unlikely to use more than 1 power per turn anyway?). He gives you a little more versatility through his powers (especially gate) which is a good thing. The points saved there can get you those Multi Meltas on the Land Raiders.

What is your reasoning for the LRC over either of the other Land Raiders? Do the Hurricane Bolters really make that much of a difference while you're rolling around? It just seems like its not much of a problem for most armies to shrug off a few bolter shots each turn. I dont' know if either of the other ones would be better for this list though. The Redeemers flamer template seems tempting, as well as its 15pts cheaper points cost, but you'll really need to get it stuck in to maximize the template weapons' effects and that means getting close to power fists/powerklaws/chainfists/whatever close range tank killing. This probably makes th Redeemers not worth it for you, but maybe its something to consider?

I agree that if you play smart, you should be able to keep your LRCs away form the carnifexes/monsterous creatures until your termies can bash them. I like running the termies as a large unit and then combat squading them to reduce your KPs as well. Sure for every army that can hose Land Raiders, there is an army that can't, but doesn't that mean you're going to get stuck with an army that can eat Land Raiders 50% of the time (couldn't help it and not trying to be mean, just fooling around with you haha). I would expect to see the lists that are lugging around a fair amount of high strength weapons near the top since those high strength weapons are also good against the Nob Bikes due to instant killing them. Just a thought and I'm not sure i it will play out like that or not. I know Lash does well consistantly and it plays lots of Oblits/Vindis/Meltas so it brings quite a few high strength options to the table. the LIbrarian can help a bit in this matchup with his hood though.

The Librarian is a great choice as a replacement for Calgar. I would probably go with something like this:

Librarian/Avenger/Gate
Terminator armor + storm shield

I like the LRC the best because that is simply what I have had the most success with over the years. The redeemer is very cool but it has to get within assault range to use the sponsons and I think most of the time you will only be able to fire a single sponson. The standard landraider would be a good option for this army since it lacks ranged weapons and I believe they can now transport up to 6 terminators but to be honest I find that my tanks rarely sit still that long to benefit from the maximum use of their lascannons... however those lascannons would be a lot better at dealing with falcons, prisms, serpents, raiders and ravagers so I will definitely have to reconsider. Another plus for the incarnation of the landraider is that you can now kit it with a multi-melta and PotMS is a lot better.

I still think in general that the LRC is the best assault tank in the game. They can lay down a blithering blanket of anti troop dakka that shreds hordes, plus you can keep them out of assault by forward screening them with assault units. The hurricane bolter is very underrated in my opinion. They are still defensive weapons and mulch units when shooting at rapid fire range. The assault cannon is twin linked and is still quite potent.

G

The Librarian can still KO the warbosses with his Force Weapon right? That might even make him a little better than Calgar for taking down the big guys. He doesn't have eternal warrior though, which is scary if he gets clobbered by a few powerklaw wounds and he's an IC so unless the combat is very carefully arranged they'll have a good chance of picking him out with one or two of their klaws. I guess the drawback of any non-Calgar hq slot at this point is the lack of eternal warrior, though that just makes the force weapon even better as it can drop a big model at least once before it dies.

IMO this list is fragile. I run a semi-competitive guard list (as they don't go full competitive well) and can actually imagine wiping the map against this army before turn 5.
The LRC's are great vehicles, but, they are still vehicles and melta fire (like drop vets or drop HQ's) ends them on a sucssful reserve roll. then there are bunch, well, less than a half dozen, terminators just itching to eat plasma fire. lascannons and tank fire will pop the rhinos with ease and then your army is reduced to a few footslogging marines... I dunno man, I could be way off on this but I think that at 1850 you are just aren't throwing out enough targets. Concentrated fire will end this army

Wheeew, just caught up, after nearly an hour :/

I am curious to hear more battle reports against Nobs, but at least the list is progressing in the right direction!

Kungfuhustler wrote:IMO this list is fragile. I run a semi-competitive guard list (as they don't go full competitive well) and can actually imagine wiping the map against this army before turn 5.

Lol, so 4 turns to annihilate it all? Even witha semi-competitive list that's not as frail as it could be by far.

That's what happens if you listen to a hustler.

G

Kungfuhustler wrote:IMO this list is fragile. I run a semi-competitive guard list (as they don't go full competitive well) and can actually imagine wiping the map against this army before turn 5.
The LRC's are great vehicles, but, they are still vehicles and melta fire (like drop vets or drop HQ's) ends them on a sucssful reserve roll. then there are bunch, well, less than a half dozen, terminators just itching to eat plasma fire. lascannons and tank fire will pop the rhinos with ease and then your army is reduced to a few footslogging marines... I dunno man, I could be way off on this but I think that at 1850 you are just aren't throwing out enough targets. Concentrated fire will end this army

You need melta fire to land within 6'' of a LRC to get that bonous pen & when you start doing that you start loosing units to the mishap table. Its a risky tactic. The termies will hide in the squad with the plasma fire, surely? While that introduce them to mr.th. Otherwise its shelled up in a LR.

GBF - Ever concidered taking null zone, as a counter versus other assault termies & demon types? As for the dred thing - theyve got meltas which they can use on the turn they drop (they dont explode by scattering onto friend/foe) but its only a str 8 weapon soo id definetely go after the troop rhinos..much easier to pop & generally a better way to use that 1st turn of melting(I did mention this before). Once the squads out, its either a game of chase (where I keep winning in cc with you falling back but close to your own table egde) or you rush the termies at me. I might change the second two dreds to normal dreds & have some plasma cannons on em.

My point is, Always go for the troops!

very good i like the idea of all the termis and crusaders commin in from the side destroying everything

GBF - Ever concidered taking null zone, as a counter versus other assault termies & demon types? As for the dred thing - theyve got meltas which they can use on the turn they drop (they dont explode by scattering onto friend/foe) but its only a str 8 weapon soo id definetely go after the troop rhinos..much easier to pop & generally a better way to use that 1st turn of melting(I did mention this before). Once the squads out, its either a game of chase (where I keep winning in cc with you falling back but close to your own table egde) or you rush the termies at me. I might change the second two dreds to normal dreds & have some plasma cannons on em.

You know I am seriously considering taking Tigerius. That would free up the points to put multi-meltas on the LRCs.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:

GBF - Ever concidered taking null zone, as a counter versus other assault termies & demon types? As for the dred thing - theyve got meltas which they can use on the turn they drop (they dont explode by scattering onto friend/foe) but its only a str 8 weapon soo id definetely go after the troop rhinos..much easier to pop & generally a better way to use that 1st turn of melting(I did mention this before). Once the squads out, its either a game of chase (where I keep winning in cc with you falling back but close to your own table egde) or you rush the termies at me. I might change the second two dreds to normal dreds & have some plasma cannons on em.

You know I am seriously considering taking Tigerius. That would free up the points to put multi-meltas on the LRCs.

G

Damn I was literally just about to suggest Tigurius. Some of the marine psychic powers offer great utility and I think he can really contribute quite a bit to the list. Definitely something to consider and have a playtest game or two with.

Aside from being able to cast anything & possibly a 3rd power a turn.. what else does he do? How effective is he in CC?

Tiggy raider.. lol

He is arguably better than Eldrad.

G

Fortune & doom < therefore I would disagree with this. Besides the powers though (Sm powers have an intrinsically different powers to eldar) depending on point cost (I havent got my SM codex to hand) I could easily agree. Saves?

Although the kinda units you can put tiggy with (termies) and the kinda units you put eldred with might nessesitate the use of doom & fortune so its really a toss up. Eldrad isnt choppy.. hes an overburnded farseer with a cool deployment rule.

IIRC Tiggy is 230pts but Idon't have the book in front of me. He's also a bit better in close combat than Eldrad due to having more attacks and a master crafted force weapon. His re-roll on reserves rolls can be cool too, but I'm not sure if with this army, it'll come in handy or not (are there any matchups/missions/situations where you want to start this army in reserve?).

Comparing the strength of the psykers based on their powers seems iffy since clearly the powers are far different, which makes each one's roll within its army much different. Eldrad causes problems by buffing units around him with Guide/Fortune/Doom, where Tiggy is generally more aggressive with Gate/whatever offensive powers.

Eldrad may be more survivable on his own since he gets an invulnerable save and Tiggy doesn't, but you stick Tigs in a squad of Assault Termies and he's tough to get to grips with if combats are carefully arranged.

Tiggy is 230 points. I think he makes the army more tactical than Marneus.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:Tiggy is 230 points. I think he makes the army more tactical than Marneus.

G

more tactical? sorry it just sounds a little funny when put that way, reminds me of Sarge from Halo "lets get tactical marines!" You're right though, he certainly provides some more versatility to the list, and gives you some different options for dealing with situations that you'd be a bit hard pressed for worthwhile solutions for with Marneus. I think he's really worth having a go with. you also save 20pts when you switch Calgar for him, so you can get the Multi Meltas on the LRCs. I'm interested to hear some results from testing with Tigs, I think its a positive move to try him out.

I am going to try to playtest this list this weekend.

G

Looks like I have a ham lined up for Sunday!

G

How about if you drop those chars that are sucking up major points (250 pts in excess, that's a LR!) and get stuff that, you know, actually kills opponent's stuff? Like say, fast AT like MM/HF Speeders or MM Bikes? OR WHATEVER essencially.

Unless you designed it to win as many ART tournies. Then Kudos.

Are you saying Marneus and Lysander can't kill?

G

Could they kill 450 Pts worth of anything else?

No

They can help kill more than 450 points... yes. Nob bikers are crazy expensive.

Lysander can romp around on some Nob Bikes and instant kill T5 characters (like Warbosses) with his hammer. He is very important to this list.

Marneus is Eternal Warrior so he won't die from one PK swing, but he's much less effective than Lysander since he doesn't get the same 3+ invulnerable and str10 attacks.

Marneus might be able to go, but Lysander is rather important for the matchup with at least the Nob bikes.

I agree with the tiggy idea - a standard HQ would simply fill the gap in one of the termie squads where as tiggy does the job quite well (gap filling) and adds in alot of variability. Null zone.. just awesome. etc etc

Decided to stick with Marneus for now and got in a game versus stealer shock list:

Broodlord w. full retinue/feeder tendrils
5x 10 genestealer/feeder tendrils

3x Zoanthropes/warp blast + Choir

2x Gunfex/barbed strangler + venom cannon

Mission was Seize Ground with Dawn of War deployment. Three objectives placed fairly close together in the middle of the table.

Strategy was to stay mounted, move onto objectives and fire LRCS into stealers then counter charge gunfexes if they decided to come up and charge my LRCs... also keep rhinos back behind LRCs to protect my scoring units.

Stealer shock army deploys up on top of DZ ready to take all three objectives asap. I let my opponent go first by the way and start with all units off the table.

1st turn the stealers move onto objectives with broodlord and crew held a bit back as a counter assault unit. Soaps are spread out amongst the forward stealer units so they can pound my LRCs with warp blast. One gunfex on either side of his line. My whole army comes in maintaining a safe distance from possible charges. Hurricane bolters light up one squad of stealers and use PotMS to light up another squad with donkey cannons. Result - two stealer packs smoked.

2nd turn both gunfex start to trundle forward as predicted towards my LRCS. Rhinos are behind and screened from Nid shooting. Zoaps target one LRC, one misses, one bounces, and the other is able to glance for a shaken result. Gunfexes fire venom cannons at same LRC (bad move) for another shaken result. In return I open up on one stealer squad using PotMS with donkey cannon on a fresh unit of stealers and smoke three. Second LRC targets same squad and slags them.

Gunfexes will have to run in the third turn to be able to charge LRCs next turn. Zoaps open up again on one LRC and manage to shake one again. Two stealer squads charge one LRC but cannot pen it with rending attacks. My turn the two LRCs tank shock stealers out of the way, move into charge range of gunfexes then pivot so that they can disgorge termies and continue pounding stealers with automated shooting. Rhinos pull up so I can fire meltas into one by gunfex. LRCs drop another squads of stealers... Down to two units plus broodlord with retinue. Combined melta fire from rhinos wounds one gunfex. Marneus also manages to drop another wound on the fex with his built in bolters. Lysander splits off from his squad of termies to charge on squad of stealers... his termies charge one fex. Marneus also splits off to solo against the other stealer squad while his termies charge the other fex. Both fexes are vaporized by termies. Marneus drops four stealers and takes two wounds. Lysander drops two genestealers and takes one wound. Both stealer units hold.

Fourth turn broodlord and crew come out to play, moving into position to assault one squad of termies. Zoaps continue to target LRCs and immobilize one. Assault sees Marneus take another wound and he drops three more stealers. Lysander holds up as well taking two wounds and splats two more stealers in return. Broodlord and retinue drop three termies and remaining two termies drop three stealers in return. Everything holds. My turn both squads of Marines disembark and split up to join the two HQ. Unengaged termies charge Broodlord and retinue. LRCs open up on two Zoaps, one wound on one and gank the other. Rhino storm bolters target wounded Zoap and drop it. HQ with Marines finish off both stealer squads, combined termies lose three more but kill three stealers in return. I am now holding two objectives and contest the third with an LRC.

Game goes into 6th turn. Lone Zoap takes a shot at mobile LRC but bounces. Broodlord and remainder of his retinue finish off the rest of the termies. Lysander splits off from tactical squad to solo versus broodlord after retinue is blown away by rapid fire. Other shooting smokes the last Zoap. Lysander charges broodlord taking no wounds and stuns the beast with his hammer.

7th turn Darnath and broodlord suicide each other.

Victory for Marneus and friends.

Might have another match tomorrow... IG or DE.

G

Seeing as the stealers can only get up to a 13 on a pen check (Str 4 + 6 on a 1d6 + 3 on a d3), what was the point of him charging his stealers into your LRC again?

That's a good question. I can only suppose he wanted the extra movement.

G

No offense GBF but you seem to play against some fairly unintellegent people in your area. Based on you "battle-reports" people in your area really don't seem to know how to play the game but hey, it makes your list look good