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Hello Caffran. Here is initial response:

Melta in general - Centurion99 posted a 1500 point Grey Knight list with two LR. He was asked the same questions essentially and states that that AV14 is extremely durable. See his post for further details. You can find it on the second page of the army lists forum.

Mech eldar - typically you don't see this list as much anymore but when you do they don't bring a lot of bright lances. The truth is the bright lance is okay but not that great against AV12+. I say that based upon several games versus DE that were packing a lot of dark lances and I was fielding a BA army with two Baal predators. Against dark eldar hopefully it would be a KP mission. This is an army you rarely ever see and even moreso now.

I think this army will do okay against ork hordes as orks have problems with AV14.

The main weaknesses of the army are short ranged weaponry and low number of scoring units in multiple objective missions. In this type of mission I will have to be careful with my two tactical squads, try to kill as much as possible and contest objectives.

G

How are Bright/Dark Lances not that great vs AV 12+? I'd say they're better than just about anything else in the game against AV12+ except a Railgun (RG is AP1 so marginally better) or melta at 1/2 range (or whatever other str8ap1 that gets 2d6 ap rolls). AV14 is quite durable yes, I agree with you there. Especially against things like Lascannons and normal str8 weapons its a damn tough nut to crack, but the math favors the Lance weapons for damaging the LRs after a few shots at them. You may have been lucky against the Lances with your BA because 1/6 of the hits from Lance weapons should kill an AV13+ tank (based on the math in my previous post).

I feel like you're placing a little too much faith in that AV14, if 1 or both of those Land Raiders pop by turn 2, you're in for a very uphill fight. It feels a lot to me like the Necrons lists that were taking 2x Monolith in 4th ed, they needed to take 2 because they were almost promised to lose 1 of them in the opening turn of the game and they needed the 'lith to help keep the army up.

I will certainly check out Centurian's GK list for an explanation on AV14.

@ OP, you know you dont get the auto pass//fail morale tests from calgar if you bring lysander right?

Aside from the awesome orbital.. what does magnus calgar do? I havent got my SM codex to hand so I cudnt quote or remember the rule. What could you replace him with, if anything? Pedro? No stormshield though.

I posted a dual gate list but I think a two flavour variety with a nullzoned (& gating) lib with a squad of normal termies and a second lib with might (or haste) and gate with an assault squad with 2xclaws and 3-4xTH/SS. Its also a good idea to use locator beacons as the bad loose-a-model rule for gate is when scattering and rolling doubles (right?) and you dont scatter with the beacon (or scatter onto terrian/off the board). -- Thats the nessecities with dual gating IMO (Not inc termie flavours)

If you dont kill thoses LRC its game over. If you dont kill a fireprism then you are allowed to be sad but you havent thrown the game. ++

krusty wrote:@ OP, you know you dont get the auto pass//fail morale tests from calgar if you bring lysander right?

well, the termie squad he's leading still benefits from it.

I would also like to note, that when charging MEQ's odds are he gets 6 kills

Yes it has been discussed at length in regard to the GoW rule for Calgar. The unit he joins still benefits from it though and that is where it's most powerful.

Calgar is there primarily to crush nob bikers. Of course if I had to choose what to drop first it would probably be Marneus. I doubt I would do that though.

Bright lances and dark lances you don't see much these days so I am willing to take my chances.

G

Really? drop marenus? Is stubborn, bolter drill, and bolster defenses better than what calgar has?

I said if I had to consider dropping one unit... never said I would do it though. Nothing but Abbadon has the killing power versus nob bikers like my man Marneus.

G

Shrike78 wrote:Really? drop marenus? Is stubborn, bolter drill, and bolster defenses better than what calgar has?

Well, I think the main reason to keep lysander is S10 insta kills a warboss, and he has some added AT. I still think you gain a lot more with the librarians and their force weapons though. I'll let you guys know if I try this version of the list out.

I picked Lysander to kill the warbosses.

G

boon of mutation. The worst way to loose a IC

how?

Everything is atleast as vunerable to it as it is to a rending hit (i.e 6+ or better depending on T) and theres nothing you can do but shoot at the choas spawn that was once your crazy expensive HQ. This is for Choas Demons, btw

Ever HQ is vulnerable to boon.

G

to be honestly, I don't like the list:

to few models, you hit last in combat and only a few anti horde weapons

I would love to play against you with my list:
2 or 3 vindicators (depends on the other part of the list) and 2 drop pods with a lot of melta guns and power fist and 2rhinos with plasma gun plasma canon and combi flamer power fist

I would love to play against a vindi list. I will put my 3+ right up in your face.

G

I think you would do good against nob bikers and some of the other power builds. The problem you will have is with the first round when you don't know what you will facing. If you run into one of those then you will do well. However, if you run into and army that has a lot meltaguns and Multimeltas you will have some problems.

True. Luckily IG with drop teams and SoB in general are rare. Lash spam could be tough but I think I would have a decent chance against it.

G

For me I kind from the last few tournament I have been to, that there are a lot of marine players running LR or LRC. So I think a lot of your better tournament players are going to start to bring a lot of melta guns and eldar/dark eldar players will be bringing there bright/dark lances. So in my opinion for a SM player to really place high in a tournment he will have to come to the table with something other then LR or LRC.

Mr.fly (lols..) what would you do versus a dred-heavy drop pod army? Like 6 ironclads w/drop pods. another pod to get 4 pods down first turn. Some form of useful troops as an extra, maybe one thing of ranged anti-tank & one ranged anti-troop.

If I were to play against 6 iron class in pods let's assume three come down the first turn right beside both LRC and destroy one LRC with a melta shot. I have two rhinos each with two meltas that can move and shoot. Let's assume my opponent has his pods come down such that I cannot have two iron class in 1/2 range from one tactical squad. First I will fire all four meltas into one iron class... That is one down. Next I will fire the remaining LRC into another iron class... There is a good chance I will get one rending shot which should penetrate but probably will not destroy that iron class. I would charge the same iron class with Lysander and a squad of terminators. Odds are Darnath will destroy that iron class and I will take no wounds in return. Marneus and his terminators will charge the third iron class:

6 hits from Marneus, 4 hit, 1 glance/pen and I can reroll the failed attacks for say 2 glance/pen

Terminators have 15 attacks for 8 eight hits and 2 glance/pen

So that is three glance/pen. Probably will not destroy the iron clad but next turn I can charge him with Darnath.

At best most likely two more iron class will come in together later in the game on the same turn. Now I can use my multi-meltas to pop them.

Honestly I think my list is better.

About dark eldar... They have been seriously nerfed in 5e with TLOS and they do not have good units to hold objectives. While I respect lance weapons I would not design my army around them as I really don't think we will see much of them anymore.

The biggest threat is the melta which has to get close enough to be charged the following turn to be at 1/2 range.

G

I stll think a decent amount of deepstriking meltas, lance weapons, and Lash spam are going to be the toughest games for this list (Idon't really know how you plan to deal with meltas, which are definitely becoming more and more popular and with the current trned towards playing multiple LRs the Eldar players would be crazy not to pack at least 4-6 Lances in thier lists). Lash is probably easier to beat tha the first 2, but not by much. The good news is you should roll right over nidzilla and the matchup against Horde armies shouldn't be terrible (I would consider swapping at least one of the Crusaders for a Redeemer just for that extra bit of help though... Hurricane Bolters are extremely mediocre as they're just bolters that fire a few more shots than normal). You can also save 15pts per LR if you swap them to Redeemers, which is cool. I'm not sure what that 30pts gets you but it may be worth thinking about. Its really hard to free up a sybstantial amount of points in this list so I don't knoww hat would be bought with the 30pts. If you could somehow squeeze more points out of it, you could consider a small unit of Scouts to cmap your home objective. The list is rather aggressive in nature so those scouts probably won't receive much attention from the other player.

Beating the top tier armies is good, but if you then struggle with the tier 2 armies you can be in for big trouble if you get paired against said lower tier armies early or run into an overacheiving one in later rounds.

its ironclad not iron class

3 wont come down on the first turn, more likely 4 will.

Marneus can also only re-roll failed rolls to wounds, not failed armour penetration rolls.

Not that it matters much, assault terminators will munch through dread heavy lists without any troube.

This list is much better than your last one.

You will probably lose against horde armies, what dont care about your thunderhammers or your stormshields (2 LRCs will kill a few but not enough), but since Nob-bikers is the flavour of the month you will probably do quite well.

Yes, the idea is to get 4 to come down & Id probably go after the rhinos with atleast one dred apiece. Id quite happily wade through a SM squad while I get charged by the Termies, rather than having to completely try and pop open the LRC's. Also if I position nicely, I can get cover from the (if any) wrecks.

Termies wont easily beat ironclads, not two 5mans. Pens on 5, glances on 6 & the beauty of ironclads (and walkers in assaults in general) is so much (but not destroyed ) of the actual damage table is ignorable or inconsequential.

Those IC's are gonna be pretty though. Not much really to deal with them aside from lotsa dreds - but only WS4.

The conversion beamer would have a go at one of the tanks aswell - I love that guy.

Darnath's thunder hammer is the dread killer. Remember that the dreads cannot charge to turn they arrive so that leaves them vulnerable shooting for at least one turn. I could just inside my tanks and roll everything back 12" when the 1st wave of iron clads arrive via alpha strike. If this type of army proved very popular which I don't think it will I could always invest in a tactical terminator squad with chainfists. I prefer the 3+ though.

G

While the LRC gives you some anti-horde dakka, would it be bad to split the 2 LRCs into one LRC, one regular LR? It would give you some extra anti-tank and some flexability. Does that work?

Green Blow Fly
Marneus Calgar
5x assault terminators all w. TH & SS
LRC w. EA

Darnath Lysander
5x assault terminators all w. TH & SS
LRC w. EA

10x tactical Marines w. multi-melta/meltagun/power fist - rhino
10x tactical Marines w. multi-melta/meltagun/power fist - rhino

mikeguth wrote: I think shooty tyranid armies will cry.

How so? 1850 points of Shooty Nids? Throw in a core of 100 termagants with fleshborers as standard there 1250 pts to spare, and apart from melta's what do you have to deal with 2+ saves that 3 zoanthropes and 2 Tyrants will be packing? Not to mention all 5 with psychic Scream. Throw in the absolute bugger load of firepower from the tyrants 2 twin devourers, the crap load of shots from the deathspitters and your army being largely assault based is in trouble. Blow those Rhino's at range and immobilise them and then there's a little bit of anti-hoard firepower coming our way but we throw doen the surviving 50-80 odd gaunts and you're in trouble from being swamped. Yes, Nid's will have trouble getting the LRC's destroyed BUT we still have monstrous creatures and they are just as good in combat. Throw out Calgar and Lysander and pop those 2-3 Fex's who just popped the land raiders and now you sir are in horrid trouble. With no support and the tacky marines tied up in combat by a synapse supported and held wave of gaunts your wonderful 2+ save and 3++ save will not be enough to cause you to flee each turn from ranged firepower and the wonderful -5 to your leadership a full psychic choir can churn out. even if you get to charge range how many of those 3 zoanthropes are packing The Horror to make you stop in your tracks when you move to engage them because we're faster then you as an army and can manouvre in such a way that the only targets will be the zoanthropes who can't be charged on a failed leadership test which also forfeits the charge for the unit that turn. Calgar will kill a few gaunts at range but once those LRC's are gone the core of your force is in serious trouble. Heck the tacky marines against 80 odd fleshborers a turn take 40 hits take 20 wounds re-rolls for the other 20 giving 10 more for a total of 30 wounds that's a full tactical squad dead, and then that other tacky squad will kill 1 unit max? good for it, then it's shooting again.

the point of that little rant is simple: Shooty Nid Armies won't cry, they'll sit back and laugh at their good fortune - you're comingd irectly towards them and don't have the necessary firepower, the big guns to deal with them. If you get into combat who cares, those wonderful thunder hammers are gonna cause 1 wound a piece and not instant death things, Lysander is a good lynch pin same with Calgar buta good opponent will swamp them if need be.

In short, I feel you have too few models for the 1850 pt mark. Definitely able to trump ork nob Bikers as design to do, and that 3++ save will see you through alot of the 3 Vindi/heavy Plasma fire headed your way in some lists, but you have 2 scoring units and once they are gone so long as only 1 of the enemy units is safe you're in trouble. Pop those LRC's and the termies are stranded, same with the tacky amrines thena faster army will outflank and manouvre for the kills on their own ground.

One point someone made I fouund intriguing was adding in Shrike to make the termies Fleet of Foot, that's a nasty little surprise right there!

One question: Do you HAVE to use the Thunder Hammer attacks or can you just use your brute force to punch stuff instead at your normal initiative with no special rules? I always thought that was an option giving you flexibility against such opponents as massed Ork Boyz/Guard/Nids who will unleash a bucket of weak attacks to slowly take you down before you can attack.

The List is powerful, but IMHO, it isn't the best tournament list around as it is to limited in what it does and too predictable to thus counter (hence the 1-dimensional comments earlier in the thread).

Auretious Taak.

Nids really have problems with armor these days, even rhinos. Remember the GoW rule really helps Marneus.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:Nids really have problems with armor these days, even rhinos. Remember the GoW rule really helps Marneus.

G

It may help him at that, but to the Nid Comments, you only need to immobilise those rhino's in your list to strand you, the Crusaders are more of an issue but by themselves you can't kill enough ina Nid Hoard to actually NOT approach the swarm with your assault troops and thus come within charge range of the monstrous creatures. You forget that a tyranid army, even a pureist shooting army is stilla Tyranid army and 4 or 5 monstrous creatures can still do a number on those tanks purely because strength 6-10 and 2D6 armour penetration with multiple attacks destroys tanks easily - throw in the fact that ignoring the assault termies abilities in combat you're gonna have trouble laying the big wounds on the MC's and you're in a bit of trouble.

Your's is going to be an advanced game of manuvre as much as the single tactic of delivering those assault termies into the heart of the enemy. Definitely not for the faint hearted and a single mistake will likely be the end of you.

To comments on replacing a LRC witha LR for the extra armour punchinga bilities, in general I find the normal LR to be next to useless - 5-7 shots a turn is not that great, not compared to 18 odd shots max from a LRC when compared this way and knowing that the army is seriously light on anti-infantry abilities the LRC's become a lynch pin that can't afford to be dropped, not even for a LRR becaause the Redeemer doesn't have the vital range to reach out and finish off not quite dead units 24 inches away vital to eliminate for kill points or to kill off for objective based games.

Cheers mate, let us know how you fair against a more hoard orientated army,

Auretious Taak.

G